#66400 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Dec 22, 2006 1:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: processes of cittas! Well, in that case I'll en sarahprocter... Hi Scott (Howard, Nina, Ven Dhammanando & all), --- Scott Duncan wrote: > Sarah: "(Howard, I would point out in this chapter of Ab.Sangaha and its > commentary, Ch3, Compendium of functions, seeing, hearing and so on > are described in terms of being the functions (kicca) of cittas.)" > > H: "Oh! In that case I'll entirely revise my thinking about agency > terminology!! LOLOL!" > > Good, Howard, finally! See, Sarah? .... Sarah: ;-)That'll be the day.... .... > But help me understand this: > > In the Anguttara Nikaaya, Chakkanipata, Devatavaggo, there is the > Attakaariisutta.m: > > "Then a certain Brahmin approached the Blessed One, exchanged friendly > greetings, sat on a side, and said... .... Sarah: I know that Nina and Ven Dhammanando have already responded to your questions on this, but let me also add some comments from a post I wrote before.: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/49677 >>>>> KKT: Here is an extract from > "The Message of the Buddha" > by K.N. Jayatilleke, p.246: > > While the Buddha distinguished his causal theory > from Determinism, he also faced the question of > free-will and ASSERTED ITS REALITY IN NO UNCERTAIN > TERMS. On one occasion, it is said, a certain brahmin > (annataro brahmano) approached the Buddha and told > him that he was of the opinion that there was no > free-will on the part of himself (atta-kara) or > others (para-kara). The Buddha admonished him and > asked him how he could say such a thing when he > himself of his own accord (sayam) could walk up > to the Buddha and walk away from him. <...> (Anguttara Nikaya III. > 337, 338, the Pali Text Society editions). .... Sarah: AN Bk of 6s, viii(38),PTS 'Self-acting'(Attakaara Sutta) Herman gave a translation in #48434 'The one who is doing' The brahman's comment: natthi attakaaro, natthi parakaaroti 'there is no self-agency; no other-agency' PTS gives a footnote to say this was Makkhali Gosala's heresy. More on this can be read in the Saama~n~naphala Sutta. He was one of the 6 teachers whose views were given by King Ajattasattu. He didn't believe in conditions of kamma at all. BB translation from the Samannaphala Sutta under 'The Doctrine of Makkhali Gosala': "...Makkhali Gosala said to me: 'Great king, there is no cause or condition for the defilement of beings; beings are defiled without any cause or condition. There is no cause or condition for the purification of beings; beings are purified without cause or condition. There is no self-determination, no determination by others, no personal determination. There is no power, no energy, no personal strength, no personal fortitude. All sentient beings, all living beings, all creatures, all souls, are helpless, powerless, devoid of energy. Undergoing transformation by destiny, circumstance, and nature, they experience pleasure and pain in the six classes of men. .... "Though one might think: 'by this moral discipline or observance or austerity or holy life I will ripen unripened kamma and eliminate ripened kamma whenever it comes up' - that cannot be. For pleasure and pain are measured out. Samsara's limits are fixed, and they can neither be shortened or extended. There is no advancing forward and no falling back. Just as, when a ball of string is thrown, it rolls along unwinding until it comes to its end, in the same way, the foolish and the wise roam and wander (for the fixed length of time), after which them make an end to suffering.' " **** Sarah: Clearly this is the worst of wrong views because someone who believes it makes no difference at all how one acts can do anything at all -- the results will be the same. In the AN sutta, the Buddha replies that he has never seen or heard of such a view and proceeds to dispel it. The word translated as free-will in KKT's post or initiative in the PTS translation is aarabbhadhaatu and PTS gives a note: aarabbha, gerund of aaraadheti, to set on foot; dhaatu, element. Herman asked for another rendering of a phrase in his translation given as:'This is the being doing and the otherness'. PTS gives: 'There is no self-agency; there is no other-agency' as I quoted above, to be understood in the context of Makkhali Gosala's view. > Many scholars have failed to see that Buddhism > UPHELD A THEORY OF NON-DETERMINISTIC CAUSAL > CONDITIONING ALONG WITH THE DOCTRINE OF FREE-WILL. > As a result Buddhism has been represented by some > Western scholars as a form of fatalism because of > their misunderstanding of the doctrine of karma > as well as the doctrine of causation. .... Sarah: I'd prefer to say that the Buddha taught us that all dhammas, all elements are conditioned but not pre-determined. It is not fatalistic because good thoughts and deeds (as well as bad ones of course) are accumulated and bring results. However, 'free-will' is a misnomer as it suggests there is 'something' apart from conditioned dhammas, whereas the Buddha taught that the only unconditioned dhamma is nibbana.< <<<<< [end of earlier post] ***** Metta, Sarah p.s Sarah: Btw, last time we enquired, the BPS, Sammanaphala transl (and some others)by BB was out of print. I mentioned it to BB when we saw him. Perhaps they are available somewhere else? They are really excellent and I still remember our excitement when the Brahmajala Sutta with commentaries was first published - it was so unusual to be able to read a full sutta commentary then. Still, very few! ======= #66401 From: JC Mendoza Date: Fri Dec 22, 2006 3:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: permission from parents jcmendoza1000 To Ven. Dhammanando: Is the word "visuukadassana" contained in the 7th precept? If so, what exactly does it mean? -JC #66402 From: "jcmendoza1000" Date: Fri Dec 22, 2006 3:45 am Subject: Suttas jcmendoza1000 To Ven. Dhammanando: Hi can you help me with these? Im having trouble finding a sutta that tells us to honor devas and they would help us as a mother their own child. And is there a sutta that also tells us to do the same to honor brahmas (not brahmans) and they would help us? Also, does the Tipitaka state that all animals can remember their former life as devas and brahmas do? And am I right that all devas and brahmas can remember their former life? -JC #66403 From: "bjones6513" Date: Fri Dec 22, 2006 4:23 am Subject: Goenka (Re: Cetasikas' study corner 613- Wholesome Deeds(j)) bjones6513 Hi Sarah, I appreciate the explanation. Have a nice holiday. I'll see about a photo. you'll have to instruct me as to how to load it. Metta, Bill- #66404 From: Dhammanando Bhikkhu Date: Fri Dec 22, 2006 4:39 am Subject: Re: permission from parents dhammanando_... Hi JC, > Is the word "visuukadassana" contained in the 7th precept? Yes. nacca-giita-vaadita-visuukadassanaa maalaa-gandha-vilepana-dhaara.na-ma.n.dana-vibhuusana.t.thaanaa verama.nii-sikkhaapada.m samaadiyaami. "I undertake the training precept of abstention from dancing, singing, music, contortionist shows, and from any opportunity for wearing garlands, smartening with scents, and embellishment with unguents." (~Naa.namoli) > If so, what exactly does it mean? Visuuka is rendered by ~Naa.namoli as contortionist, and by others as unfitting or unseemly. Dassana can mean seeing, or else an exhibition, show or display. Buddhaghosa allows that either of the meanings of dassana might apply here, and so he supplies two interpretations: "Contortionist show" (visuuka-dassana) is a showing of contortions, or a showing that is a contortion, by its corrupting what partakes of the kusala because of its being an occasion for the arising of defilement." (KhpA. 36; Minor Readings & Illustrator p.34) After this the commentator refers the reader to the "contortionist shows" described in the Brahmajaala Sutta. Then he offers an alternative interpretation: "... dancing, singing, and music, in the sense already stated, are themselves contortions (visuuka), thus [the meaning] is 'contortions consisting in dancing, singing and music', and the seeing (dassana) of them is 'seeing of contortions consisting in dancing, singing and music'. " (ibid.) He then notes that according to this second interpretation "seeing" is to be taken as including "hearing" also (e.g., in the case of singing and music). Best wishes, Dhammanando #66405 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Dec 22, 2006 5:14 am Subject: [dsg] Re: processes of cittas! Well, in that case I'll en scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, Thanks for the reply; sorry about my poor memory. S: "p.s Sarah: Btw, last time we enquired, the BPS, Sammanaphala transl (and some others)by BB was out of print. I mentioned it to BB when we saw him. Perhaps they are available somewhere else? They are really excellent and I still remember our excitement when the Brahmajala Sutta with commentaries was first published - it was so unusual to be able to read a full sutta commentary then. Still, very few!" I did find that the references given by Ven. Dhammanando were all out of print but located them used and have ordered them all! Sincerely, Scott. #66406 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Dec 22, 2006 12:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Goenka (Re: Cetasikas' study corner 613- Wholesome Deeds(j)) upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 12/22/06 12:48:13 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > >H: though mindfulness of the body can be a > >complete > >meditative practice (as in MN 119), > .... > S: NOT Agreed! Yes, if one reads MN 119 in isolation, it can be read that > way, just as if one reads a sutta just on vedana, or just on kamma or just > on the 4 elements, they can be taken (wrongly) as 'a complete meditative > practice'. I believe such interpretations miss the point of the > development of satipattthana - that it refers to the development of sati > sampajanna (mindfulness and right understanding) of whatever appears and > that ideas of selection and control are the antithesis to the core > teachings of anicca, dukkha and anatta. > ======================= I fear was misleading in what I wrote. I didn't mean to imply that body-centered meditation focuses only on the body, even though little else is directly mentioned in that sutta. As I wrote recently, any not-strictly-samatha meditation, any meditation aimed at full development, must broaden to a non-selective attending to whatever arises, with energy directed towards "merely staying present," and not towards content. Anapanasati, for example, is a breath-centered implementation of meditation on the four foundations of mindfulness; it goes well beyond merely the breath. And MN 119, though referring in title only to body, and truly emphasizing investigation of the body and little else as directly stated, does provide a full meditative program as well, including the four jhanas. The development of the jhanas during such a not strictly samatha-bhavana, investigative sort of meditation naturally involves monitoring of feelings, of (states of) consciousness, and of intention, and it requires increasing steps of relinquishment. The Buddha does say here that such meditating will take one all the way. Taking this sutta together with others, and also applying my own experience in meditating, I know full well that that body-centered meditation as described in MN 119 is not a tightly focused technique, and that it develops into a non-selective awareness rather quickly, with thoughts, feelings, emotions, sights, smells, reactions, etc all taken note of, quite non-selectively and without attempt at control. With metta, Howard #66407 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Dec 22, 2006 5:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Goenka (Re: Cetasikas' study corner 613- Wholesome Deeds(j)) sarahprocter... Hi James & Bill, --- bjones6513 wrote: > Hi Sarah, > I appreciate the explanation. Have a nice holiday. I'll see about a > photo. > you'll have to instruct me as to how to load it. .... S: Thanks in advance, Bill. James, would you kindly help Bill to load it (off-list). TIA and have a good holiday weekend, both of you. Metta, Sarah ========= #66408 From: "bjones6513" Date: Fri Dec 22, 2006 5:49 am Subject: Goenka (Re: Cetasikas' study corner 613- Wholesome Deeds(j)) bjones6513 Hi Howard, Sarah, and All, The following is also my experience when practicing awareness of body sensations. It progresses into, as Howard says, a non-selective awareness. With metta, Bill , and that it develops into a > non-selective awareness rather quickly, with thoughts, feelings, emotions, sights, > smells, reactions, etc all taken note of, quite non-selectively and without > attempt at control. > > With metta, > Howard #66409 From: "bjones6513" Date: Fri Dec 22, 2006 6:08 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Insects and the Precept Against Killing bjones6513 Hi Howard, Your statement regarding hypocrisy reminds me of an argument I always have with my wife concerning eating meat. She says its okay to eat meat as long as you don't kill it yourself. The way I see it, by eating meat, whether killed by yourself or not, you are promoting the killing. I don't see the difference. What about the care of a parasite living in one's body? Is it okay to kill it? In the case of the cockroaches, they are generally considered to spread disease. Or the farmer who must kill to attend to his crops. Even organic farmers have to kill insects. Metta, Bill #66410 From: "sukinder" Date: Sat Dec 23, 2006 12:12 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Cetasikas' study corner 613- Wholesome Deeds(j) sukinderpal Hi Bill , You wrote to James: Bill: " I guess I tend to judge the merit of any philosophical or religious practice based on how it helps one with their daily life. Maybe this is one of my flaws. But I do stand by my point that Goenka has helped many." I don't know if you were here and read my last post to Phil. If not, I'd like to say that I personally don't believe in any 'deliberate' noting, observing, of one's moment to moment experience. This being the case, I find fault not only with Goenka, but also every other meditation technique. I went to my first Goenka retreat a little less than seven years ago, and to a second one, four month after that. It is obvious that I was quite attracted to it. Three or so months later however, after being introduced to DSG and K. Sujin, I lost the interest. This was not based on any negative experience, but on what I consider to be a new and better understanding of Dhamma. At first I made the distinction between the different interpretations of Dhamma as being wrong, somewhat right and right. Therefore when a friend wanted to try out a Goenka retreat, even though I objected to the idea, I somewhat agreed with his suggestion that without Goenka I might not have come to appreciate Theravada teachings. However, I think I was wrong. The conventional stories with which we make judgements about our life is conditioned almost 100% by perversion of sanna, citta and also much of the time, by ditthi. If we look back to our so called 'meditation experience' with any degree of fondness, you can be sure we are deluding ourselves and adding to the accumulation of not only tanha and avijja, but also wrong view. I am not saying that this is what you do. But my point is that when it is suggested that others may have benefited, I think it is good to realize that we can't know this for sure, i.e. from what others report. And given that the way these things work as I have suggested above, then we are definitely wrong in our assessment. Imo, the fruit of any developed understanding is growing confidence about the present dhamma, whatever this may be, as being the only worthy object of understanding. This means that in so far that we still have ideas about another place, time or method, this kind of confidence is lacking. The beginning, middle and the end of Dhamma is *all* about presently arisen dhammas. This corresponds with the idea of pariyatti, patipatti and pativedha. We have accumulated so much akusala, particularly avijja that even after hearing about presently arisen dhammas, there is still avijja almost all the time. The path by which satipatthana arises is via listening and considering over and over again about the different characteristics of dhammas so that at times some of their characteristics are known with any degree of understanding. One grows in familiarity with the different dhammas and gradually learn not to be fooled by them (conventionally speaking). But even if there is no sati of the level, one can at least appreciate that it does not happen precisely because there is not enough wisdom accumulated from hearing and considering, re: suttamaya panna and cintamaya panna which leads to bhavanamaya panna. Most come to the conclusion that not having satipatthana is due to not "paying attention" (deliberately) to breath, sensations, and so on. They do not consider that the very mode of attention subsequently made, has grown from an "idea"!! The idea to pay attention, to note, to be mindful (willingly accepting any definition of "sati" and labeling the mode of attention as such) and believing that this is what the Buddha taught. We are used to reacting to any "suggestion" with 'thinking', and whether this is kusala or akusala, we are completely ignorant about. Yet we trust the 'mindfulness' and continue to "just do it"! One thing to consider is that if we really believed that every moment is a dhamma performing its function, then the *interest* must be there to some degree to understand it. The level of understanding is either pariyatti, patipatti or may even be pativedha; this is beyond control. If it is the first and the dhamma is anything but kusala, then even this can subsequently be reflected on as being "conditioned and beyond control". If however, there is the idea of 'doing something else', then it must be due to wrong understanding of the way things are. Better to know then, that even such an idea is conditioned due to accumulated tendencies, and this would have been an instance of "correct" intellectual understanding, being accumulated such that it might one day condition satipatthana. The other path however, leads to accumulation of avijja, tanha and miccha ditthi, forever *trying to be mindful* and believing in any illusion of result. Another thing about 'meditation techniques': The Buddha for an instant, hesitated to teach the Dhamma and this was because he understood it to be very profound. A kind of understanding, completely different from every other teaching ever. He did however do so, because he saw that there were indeed some people who had accumulated the wisdom to comprehend it and could likewise gain liberation. If in fact what he taught could be reduced to some "technique", do you think he would have hesitated at first?! I don't think so. After my first Goenka retreat I felt so grateful to the meditation instructor that I asked to be given his address so that I could send him a copy of the Middle Length Discourses. The other staff discouraged me from this, saying that their 'way' tried to stay away from 'books' and were interested only in 'practice'. They did finally give me the address and I did send him the book. But do you see the lack of respect? To me the Buddha's words are like gold, every one of them. These fellows think that they have heard enough!! But alas this is the kind of wrong thinking resulting from 'self view', and I know that they don't mean any disrespect. Finally, yes it is agreed that the 'practice' is more important, there is no doubt about this. However what this 'practice' is must also be understood through hearing what the Buddha has said about it. We have our conventional ideas about practice, influenced largely by 'mainstream/popular' Buddhism. And unquestioningly we grasp at it as we do everything else. But like every thing else, *practice is a dhamma* and has characteristics, and like everything else which we are ignorant of and take for 'self' this too is! A trap isn't it, this one? How do you get rid of 'self' by 'self'? Patience, courage and good cheer is what we need. No practice is better than wrong practice, and as long as we value ditthujukamma, I think we are facing the right direction. Had other points to make, but this is already too long. Hope there was some food for thought. With metta, Sukinder #66411 From: "kanchaa" Date: Fri Dec 22, 2006 6:12 am Subject: Tripitaka Information! kanchuu2003 Dear All, Wish you all a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year! Please send me the link where I can have a look of Tripitaka in English. I think time has come for me to study Satpathana and Maha- Satipathana. Please send me the link related to above! I have learned to walk.... It doesnt matter, how did I learn it... Maybe someone else learnt it their own way, with the information and resources available.. I learnt it with the resources availble to my reality... Now its my own decision where do I head myself... The steps that I take would be solely my own.... The steps would lead me to Consciousness!!! Thank you. Sincerely, Nitesh #66412 From: "Joop" Date: Fri Dec 22, 2006 6:41 am Subject: A hurrah for concepts (Was:Re: [dsg] elements of experience jwromeijn Dear Sarah, Larry, all Thanks again. There are only some subtle different views, I think. I gave the message another title because of your remark " S: And in an ultimate sense, theories are just ideas, concepts, non-realities and don't lead out of samsara." Even in accepting the difference between conventional and ultimate 'realities' and even in accepting that "seeing things as they really are" (that is: as dhammas arising and falling away) WE NEED CONCEPTS. Not only in daily life we need them (how I can ever find the bakery without them?) but also in spiritual life we need them. The Buddha used many many concepts (ideas) to explain Dhamma. Take for example a text like Nina's 'Abhidhamma in daily life' (I play a very small role in translating it to dutch). This text is ninety procent concepts, as a kind of framework to explain to ten volume-procent dhammas in it. Pure ultimate realities are only listst, like the Dhammasangani. So I don't agree totally when you say theories don't lead out of samsara. When we cling on a theory then it don't, but they are means and wordlings can not start the leading out of samsara without theories. (I said to Bill yesterday I'm not an expert on the topic of Nibbana but a Buddha or a Arahat after their passing away - so 'in' Nibbana - even don't 'have' ultimate realities.) Like an englishman once said "East is east and West and west and never the twain shall meet", there are now people who say: "Ultimate realities are Ultimate realities and Concepts are Concepts and never the twain shall meet" I however think there is a link between those two in our thinking. There even are in-between-phenomena, like the famous "accumulations". And some say the rupa kabalikarahara (edible food) is itself a concept. (I know this remarks of me are a little provocation) One remark was a puzzle to me: S: A small refinement - I wrote 'the dhamma which is only ever experienced' rather than 'experienced', because there are many, many, many rupas arising and falling away all the time which are not experienced. 'Only ever experienced' means that unlike nama, rupas can never experience an object. J: Of course rupas can never experience an onject, that's in fact off- topic. But a "rupa arising and falling away which is not experienced" is - in my system - a not-existing-rupa. Because - for me - the rupa IS the experience of arising and falling away. There are not two entities: the rupa AND the arising and falling away, but one. (Possibly this is not the formal Abhidhamma-view: no problem.) S: How about THIS moment? You appreciate discussions on anicca. What is anicca at THIS very moment? J: The first time I was reading this part of your message, I was listening to Emma Kirby singing 'Exultate jubilate' of Mozart. Accepting anicca was accepting that this only takes some minutes; of course I can push on the 'repeat' button (more difficult to do in daily life) but still this listening itself is an exercise in anicca: not being attached to the joy of some minutes ago. I hope Jon and you (and all other DSG participants) have good days next week and a good 2007 Metta Joop #66413 From: "Joop" Date: Fri Dec 22, 2006 6:46 am Subject: Re: Tripitaka Information! jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kanchaa" wrote: > > Dear All, > > Wish you all a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year! > > Please send me the link where I can have a look of Tripitaka in > English. > Hallo Nitesh The same to you. I'm afraid you don't have an idea how many volumes the Tipitaks has. The best link is http://www.accesstoinsight.org Metta Joop #66414 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Dec 22, 2006 1:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Insects and the Precept Against Killing upasaka_howard Hi, Bill - In a message dated 12/22/06 9:16:50 AM Eastern Standard Time, Bjones6513@... writes: > Hi Howard, > Your statement regarding hypocrisy reminds me of an argument I > always have with my wife concerning eating meat. She says its okay to > eat meat as long as you don't kill it yourself. The way I see it, by eating > > meat, whether killed by yourself or not, you are promoting the killing. I > don't see the difference. ----------------------------------- Howard: Nor do I. I agree with you on this. I'm not a vegetarian, though, for I do eat fish & shellfish, and I admit to violating the precept against killing in that regard. But I do not eat mammals or birds (a.k.a. meat and fowl! ;-) ------------------------------------ > What about the care of a parasite living in one's body? Is it okay to kill > > it? In the case of the cockroaches, they are generally considered to > spread disease. Or the farmer who must kill to attend to his crops. Even > organic farmers have to kill insects. -------------------------------------- Howard: All tough decisions. I *will* kill bodily invaders. For that matter, on a more serious scale, I would possibly kill in self-defense or in defense of an innocent victim if I deemed it unavoidable, but I would try to do only as little as would be necessary to thwart the aggression. I'm not a pacifist in principle, but I very much tend that way in practice. I would grieve at any killing. I regularly catch and remove from the house, alive, any insects. We had a bad problem with cave/spider crickets (ugly things! ;-)) for a while which I dealt with by one-by-one catching & removing and finally by making the conditions inhospitable for them so that they "chose" to leave. (I think you may have joined DSG after I had been writing about that.) ------------------------------------- > > Metta, > Bill > ================== With metta, Howard #66415 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Dec 22, 2006 10:05 am Subject: Letters on Vipassana IV, 2. nilovg Dear friends, After the experience of visible object, sound and the other sense objects, we form up concepts on account of these objects. Our world seems to be full of people and things and we keep on thinking about them. We are quite occupied with thinking and we take our thoughts very seriously. However, thinking only occurs because citta arises, thinks about something and then falls away. Each citta experiences an object, and the object can be an absolute or ultimate reality, a nåma or rúpa, or a concept. We cannot predict which object will impinge the next moment on which doorway. Visible object, sound or the other sense objects can be pleasant or unpleasant. The experience of pleasant sense objects or unpleasant sense objects is vipåkacitta which is conditioned by kusala kamma or akusala kamma performed in the past. There isn't anybody who can control vipåka.Vipåkacittas just experience the pleasant sense object or the unpleasant sense object, they do not like or dislike it. When there is like or dislike there are already akusala cittas arising. After the moments of vipåkacittas there are, in the case of non- arahats, seven akusala cittas or kusala cittas which experience the object. When akusala cittas arise there is unwise attention to the object and when kusala cittas arise there is wise attention to the object. We can notice that we all have different inclinations and these are conditioned by what has been accumulated in the past. Kusala citta and akusala citta arise and then fall away, but the succeeeding citta carries on the inclination to kusala or to akusala and thus there are conditions for the arising of kusala citta or akusala citta later on. Kusala citta and akusala citta of the past condition the arising of kusala citta and akusala citta at the present, and the arising of kusala citta and akusala citta at the present are in their turn conditions for the cittas arising in the future. If our reactions today are conditioned by past accumulations it may seem that a fate reigns our life. Someone was wondering whether there is no possibility to control one's inclinations, to exert effort for the development of kusala. The inclinations which have been accumulated in the past condition cittas which arise today but this does not mean that inclinations cannot be changed. If we listen to the Dhamma as it is explained by the right friend in the Dhamma, and if we study the Dhamma and consider it carefully , conditions are being built up for the arising of sati. Sati can be directly aware of realities as they appear in our daily life and then right understanding can be developed. Right understanding must be developed from life to life but there is no self who develops it. The development of understanding depends on conditions. If there were no conditions how could it arise and develop? ******* Nina. #66416 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Dec 22, 2006 10:02 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily LIfe, 159 nilovg Dear friends, The Visuddhimagga (IV, 100) states concerning the difference between happiness (píti) and bliss (sukha): And whenever the two are associated, happiness (píti) is the contentedness at getting a desirable object, and bliss (sukha) is the actual experiencing of it when got. Where there is happiness there is bliss (pleasure); but where there is bliss there is not necessarily happiness. Happiness is included in the formations aggregate (saòkhårakkhandha) ; bliss is included in the feeling aggregate (vedanåkkhandha). If a man exhausted in a desert saw or heard about a pond on the edge of a wood, he would have happiness; if he went into the wood's shade and used the water, he would have bliss... The jhåna-factor which is samådhi or concentration is the cetasika which is ekaggatå cetasika. This cetasika arises with every citta and its function is to focus on an object. Each citta can experience only one object and ekaggatå cetasika focuses on that one object. Ekaggatå cetasika or samådhi can be kusala as well as akusala. Samådhi when it is developed in samatha is wholesome concentration on a meditation subject. Together with samådhi there must be right understanding which knows precisely when the citta is kusala citta and when akusala citta and which knows how to develop calm, otherwise the right concentration of samatha will not grow. If one tries very hard to concentrate but right understanding is lacking, there may be attachment to one's effort to become concentrated, or, if one cannot become concentrated, aversion may arise. Then calm cannot grow. If there is right understanding there are conditions for samådhi to develop. The Visuddhimagga (XIV, 139) states concerning samådhi: It puts (ådhiyati) consciousness evenly (samaó) on the object, or it puts it rightly (sammå) on it, or it is just the mere collecting (samådhåna) of the mind, thus it is concentration (samådhi). Its characteristic is non-wandering, or its characteristic is non- distraction. Its function is to conglomerate conascent states as water does bath powder. It is manifested as peace. Usually its proximate cause is bliss. It should be regarded as steadiness of the mind, like the steadiness of a lamp's flame when there is no draught. Samådhi inhibits kåmacchandha (sensuous desire). When there is right concentration on a wholesome subject of meditation, one is at that moment not hindered by kåmacchandha. ****** Nina. #66417 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Dec 22, 2006 11:45 am Subject: shoulder bicep surgery nilovg Hi Howard, -------- H: P.S. Please tell Lodewijk not to worry about my getting out of the house. ;-) On Xmas Eve I'll be driving to our daughter-in-law's parents' house for dinner and then to attend midnite mass at their church, and the next day I'll be driving to Connecticut for Xmas day ------- N: That is a good sign, that you can drive. But, we meant: walking is good for circulation, will ease pain and make you quickly recover. Get to move, not just in the car. --------- > >-------------------------------------------- > >H: Pain, when not entirely intolerable, is an excellent phenomenon > >to attend ...I have at least come close to that - at the one Goenka retreat I attended. But at a grosser level, it is more easily observed that pain may increase, decrease, and cease, and while that isn't the ultimate apprehension of anicca, it is still insightful. ----------------------------------------- N: Mmmm. It is still thinking of concepts, and thinking is done either with kusala citta or akusala citta. We better find out ourselves. > ------------------------------------------ Howard: When meditating in an in-tandem fashion, cultivating both calm and insight, it is the norm to "open up" to whatever arises after a point. The expenditure of energy, once one has attained a satisfactory degree of calm and clarity, is not directed to a specific subject, but to "staying present" in the sense of not getting lost in thought or in states marked by sloth & torpor. THAT effort IS made, else one is no longer meditating. Just staying present then deepens and strengthens the process. ===================== N: When at midnite mass, you can meditate on the Buddha; without him you would not know much about citta, about defilements. When the citta is kusala, there is also right effort, but it is momentary. Not a long time of it. There are likely to be also moments of akusala effort. Each time we say: I am making an effort, it means that there are countless cittas arising and falling away. Of course there will be moments in that church you will be dozing off (catching up all the sleep you missed), sloth and torpor! But when we have seen the benefit of kusala there are conditions for wise attention to the object at that moment, even if it is sleepiness. But there is sound, or hearing, or what is visible. Thus, you have heard about kusala and akusala, and there is understanding of the benefit of kusala, the danger of akusala. This is a very important condition. It is understanding that has to sink in, and then accumulated understanding can condition the arising again of kusala citta with understanding. Yes, there is calm with each kusala citta, and many degrees of calm. Then we can cling to calm, it is so pleasant. It is all right, so long as it is realised as such, a conditioned nama. So, I wish you an easing off of pain and many fruitful moments of understanding during the festive days with your family. There is seeing when you are alone in the room for meditation, but also seeing in the church, or when chatting with your family. Seeing is the same everywhere. Nina. #66418 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Dec 22, 2006 11:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: paticcasamuppada nilovg Dear Fabian, There are some Pali Text Editions; to the Dhammasangani: the Co: Expositor (Atthasalini) to Vibhanga, Book of Analysis, the Dispeller of Delusion (sammohavinodani.) to Puggalapa~n~nnatti: The Debates Co. ----- If you have dilemmas, please, write them to dsg. You will receive answers, though not on everything. Nina. Op 21-dec-2006, om 15:02 heeft chandrafabian het volgende geschreven: > We have Tipitaka, PTS and BPS or some Myanmar, but Attakatha (in > English) is very limited, especially we desperately need Abhidhamma > Athakatha to clarify some hesitation about the source of some Dhamma > Phrase. > I have Visuddhi Magga, and I would appreciated if you tell me where I > could find Abhidhamma Athakatha in English. #66419 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Dec 22, 2006 7:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] shoulder bicep surgery upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 12/22/06 3:00:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > -------- > H: P.S. Please tell Lodewijk not to worry about my getting out of the > house. ;-) > On Xmas Eve I'll be driving to our daughter-in-law's parents' house for > dinner and then to attend midnite mass at their church, and the next > day I'll be > driving to Connecticut for Xmas day > ------- > N: That is a good sign, that you can drive. But, we meant: walking is > good for circulation, will ease pain and make you quickly recover. > Get to move, not just in the car. -------------------------------------- Howard: Thanks. Yes, I know that exercise is important, and I am getting some. And as I improve, I increasingly get more. --------------------------------------- > --------- > > >>-------------------------------------------- > >>H: Pain, when not entirely intolerable, is an excellent phenomenon > >>to attend > ...I have at least come close to that - at the one Goenka retreat I > attended. But at a grosser level, it is more easily observed that > pain may > increase, decrease, and cease, and while that isn't the ultimate > apprehension of > anicca, it is still insightful. > ----------------------------------------- > N: Mmmm. It is still thinking of concepts, and thinking is done > either with kusala citta or akusala citta. We better find out ourselves. ------------------------------------------- Howard: You are right. That is why I meditate, Nina, and that is how I've gotten much closer to the dhamma level of observing. Meditation isn't nonsense. It is REAL, and it makes a difference. The ordinary state of mind is, indeed, quite ordinary, and doesn't compare in clarity to that of the meditative mind. --------------------------------------- > > > ------------------------------------------ > Howard: > When meditating in an in-tandem fashion, cultivating both calm and > insight, it is the norm to "open up" to whatever arises after a > point. The > expenditure of energy, once one has attained a satisfactory degree of > calm and > clarity, is not directed to a specific subject, but to "staying > present" in the > sense of not getting lost in thought or in states marked by sloth & > torpor. THAT > effort IS made, else one is no longer meditating. Just staying > present then > deepens and strengthens the process. > ===================== > N: When at midnite mass, you can meditate on the Buddha; without him > you would not know much about citta, about defilements. --------------------------------------------- Howard: That's not meditating - it's thinking. --------------------------------------------- When the > > citta is kusala, there is also right effort, but it is momentary. Not > a long time of it. There are likely to be also moments of akusala > effort. Each time we say: I am making an effort, it means that there > are countless cittas arising and falling away. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Of course. So what? ---------------------------------------------- > Of course there will be moments in that church you will be dozing off > (catching up all the sleep you missed), sloth and torpor! But when we > have seen the benefit of kusala there are conditions for wise > attention to the object at that moment, even if it is sleepiness. But > there is sound, or hearing, or what is visible. Thus, you have heard > about kusala and akusala, and there is understanding of the benefit > of kusala, the danger of akusala. This is a very important > condition. It is understanding that has to sink in, and then > accumulated understanding can condition the arising again of kusala > citta with understanding. -------------------------------------- Howard: Talking of ordinary occasions as if they were moments of meditating is just talk. It is not fact. If you meditated, Nina, you would know first-hand the difference. ---------------------------------------- > Yes, there is calm with each kusala citta, and many degrees of calm. > Then we can cling to calm, it is so pleasant. > It is all right, so long as it is realised as such, a conditioned nama. > So, I wish you an easing off of pain and many fruitful moments of > understanding during the festive days with your family. There is > seeing when you are alone in the room for meditation, but also seeing > in the church, or when chatting with your family. Seeing is the same > everywhere. -------------------------------------- Howard: There is seeing by squirrels as well, Nina. I frankly think the Buddha would be astounded at the ideas put forth here as to what constitutes practice. ------------------------------------- > Nina. > ================= I wish you and Lodewijk, and all here, a wonderful Xmas season, and to any Jews on the list, a happy last night, tonight, of Chanukah. With metta, Howard #66420 From: melek cilingir Date: Fri Dec 22, 2006 6:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Tripitaka Information! melekcilingir hi nitesh, you can visit "vri website" and find the pali tipitaka project link. www.vri.dhamma.org have a happy year melek #66421 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Dec 22, 2006 7:02 am Subject: Advantageous Study! bhikkhu5 Friends: A wide range of core Buddhist Texts on crucial topics such as: Awareness Joy Faith Energy Concentration Understanding and many others have been added at: http://what-buddha-said.net/drops/III/Index.Dhamma.Drops3.htm Please enjoy your advantageous study! Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Ceylon * #66422 From: "bjones6513" Date: Fri Dec 22, 2006 2:21 pm Subject: Re: Insects and the Precept Against Killing bjones6513 > Hi Howard, I remember reading about your crickets. I've been reading the posts for a few months. Sometimes, though, I just don't have time to keep up with them much less reply to any. Have a nice holiday, With metta, Bill #66423 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Dec 22, 2006 6:23 pm Subject: Vism.XVII,123 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga), Ch. XVII 123.There are five kinds of resultant fine-material-sphere consciousness ((57)-(61)) with the fine-material-sphere formation of merit as condition, according as it is said: 'Owing to that same profitable kamma of the fine-material sphere having been performed, stored-up, [by the development of that same profitable jhana,] secluded from sense desires ... he enters upon and dwells in the resultant first jhana ... fifth jhana' (Dhs.499). ******************** 123. ruupaavacarapu~n~naabhisa"nkhaarapaccayaa pana pa~nca ruupaavacaravipaakaani. yathaaha -- ``tasseva ruupaavacarassa kusalassa kammassa ka.tattaa upacitattaa vipaaka.m vivicceva kaamehi pa.thama.m jhaana.m...pe0... pa~ncama.m jhaana.m upasampajja viharatii´´ti (dha0 sa0 499). eva.m pu~n~naabhisa"nkhaarapaccayaa ekaviisatividha.m vi~n~naa.na.m hoti. #66424 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Dec 22, 2006 8:33 pm Subject: Faults of Goenka's Meditation Method buddhatrue Hi Bill, I said I would post a full explanation of the faults of Goenka's teachings, so here goes: BEGINNING PREMISE: As a Buddhist, I sincerely believe in the Triple Gem: Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha. I evaluate the worthiness or unworthiness or any meditation technique based on this criteria. If the meditation is what the Buddha taught, follows the dhamma, and is what the ancient sangha practiced, I am all for it! If it is not, I am 100% against it!! Hmmm…this may seem rather radical and fundamentalist to some, but not to me. Since I am a Buddhist, I believe that meditation should only be practiced if it will ultimately lead to ending the round of birth and death, suffering (samsara). Goenka's meditation technique does offer many benefits to the practitioner. It can make you less stressed during daily life (in the beginning), cure physical ailments (such as Sarah pointed out), and lead to profound insights, satori (as Howard pointed out). However, it will not lead to ultimate liberation!! Why? Because it isn't what the Buddha taught. Therefore, from my Buddhist viewpoint, it should be scrapped, abandoned, and every Goenka meditation center closed down. Goenka's technique is especially dangerous because it offers a false hope of liberation that it doesn't provide. It is a dead-end. GOENKA'S METHOD: The practitioner is to begin by concentrating on the breath, either at the opening of the nostrils or the abdomen. When the practitioner has built enough concentration to follow the breaths to the count of ten without being distracted, then the "body sweep" is supposed to begin. The body sweep is when the practitioner is supposed to observe gross and minute physical sensations starting at the top of the head and then working one's way down the body to the tip of the toes. Then the mental sweep is supposed to move from the toes to the top of the head, etc., up and down, up and down. The practitioner is supposed to notice how the sensations arise, persist, and then pass away. The practitioner is also supposed to notice whether the sensations are pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral. Eventually the practitioner will achieve the highest stage of practice where he or she will see that the body is composed of waves of vibrations and that nothing is solid. Goenka teaches that one need only focus on the bodily sensations because all mental states and mental objects are translated into bodily sensations. DIFFERENCE WITH BUDDHA'S METHOD: In the Noble Eightfold Path, the Buddha taught Right Mindfulness and Right Concentration. Right Mindfulness is defined as the Four Foundations of Mindfulness. Right Concentration is defined as the four jhanas. Goenka's method doesn't meet the requirements of either Right Mindfulness or Right Concentration. Right Mindfulness requires mindfulness of the body (as a whole), feelings (mental feelings of agreeable, disagreeable, and neutral- not physical sensations), mind, and mental objects. When Goenka teaches that all mental states and mental objects can be known by observing physical sensations in the body, he is teaching a falsehood. When Goenka equates observing physical sensations with knowing affective feelings (good, bad, and indifferent), he is teaching a falsehood. When Goenka teaches that the highest state of meditation practice is when the practitioner observes the body as being composed of waves of vibrations (instead of jhanas), he is teaching a falsehood. Predominately, Goenka misrepresents what the Buddha taught. The only thing that Goenka teaches which matches the Buddha's teaching is mindfulness of breathing. It is most likely that any benefit the practitioner gets from Goenka's practice will come from that mindfulness of breathing aspect. CONCLUSION: Howard and Sarah also see the inaccuracies of Goenka's method but they choose not to discourage people from practicing it. That is their choice. However, even though it may seem hardliner, I believe it is my responsibility as a Buddhist to discourage everyone I can from practicing Goenka's method of meditation. If I know the harm that it can do to one's understanding of the Buddha's teaching, and yet I don't say anything about that, then I would be guilty of a grave offense. Metta, James #66425 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Dec 22, 2006 8:52 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 613- Wholesome Deeds(j) buddhatrue Hi Melek, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, melek cilingir wrote: > > hi james, > > j: You wanting me to be free of aversions is your aversion > > > > m: not at all! i thought you were suffering from this and wished you to get rid of it. Oh, sorry for the misunderstanding. BTW, I like the picture you put in the members folder (beautiful background), but which one are you? Metta, James #66426 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Dec 22, 2006 9:04 pm Subject: [dsg] Goenka (Re: Cetasikas' study corner 613- Wholesome Deeds(j)) buddhatrue Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > S: In any case, we can never blame a teacher for any 'waste of time' or > misunderstandings on our part. These are due to our own wrong views and > tendencies to follow the wrong path. In other words, it is the way samsara > goes.....lots and lots of wrong view accumulated. I don't agree with this. We CAN blame a teacher for giving the wrong teaching, wasting our time, and leading us to misunderstanding. The Buddha encountered two teachers on his search for enlightenment and he rejected them both because they taught a false teaching. He didn't blame himself each time and say to himself, "Oh, this teaching didn't work for me because I have wrong views and wrong tendencies." He knew that the fault lie in the teaching and the teacher so he left. Metta, James #66427 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Dec 22, 2006 9:27 pm Subject: Goenka (Re: Cetasikas' study corner 613- Wholesome Deeds(j)) buddhatrue Hi Bill, > James, would you kindly help Bill to load it (off-list). TIA and have a > good holiday weekend, both of you. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ========= > Hi Bill (and All), You can send me the photo as an attachment to: buddhatrue@... and I will add it for you. Of, if you would like to do it, just follow these instructions: 1.Go to the group's homepage 2.On the left of the homepage, click the link "Photos" 3.Click the 1st folder titled "1Members" 4.In the upper, right corner, click "Add Photo" 5.Browse to the photo in your computer and click "Open" 6.Give the photo a name in "Photo Name" 7.Give the photo a description, or leave blank, in "Photo Description" 8.In the lower, right corner, click "Add Now" That's it! Your photo will be added. Thanks for adding your photo- it makes conversation more personal. Metta, James #66428 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Fri Dec 22, 2006 9:49 pm Subject: [dsg] elements of experience / was Re: Gratitude vs kamma-vipaka ken_aitch Hi Sarah, Thanks for the further explanations. Now that my eyes are better, this thread is much easier to read - in more ways than one. However, I am still not sure why you brought in the bit about 'blind from conception' (as distinct from blind later in life). In either case there are only five vatthus that can arise and fall away, are there not? The only difference is a matter of hetus, which isn't really relevant to this discussion - unless I am missing something. --------------------- <. . .> S: > In the end, it's also a question of whether there is direct awareness and understanding of the seeing or visible object appearing now or not. If there is awareness, there's no thought of 'strong' or 'weak'. It appears just as it is. .... S: Meanwhile, take good care of your eyes -- we need them in good shape here for all the controversies!! ---------------------- Ha ha! Nothing I can say can be in the least bit controversial when compared to the Dhamma. The Dhamma is actually telling us that seeing is only seeing - not your seeing, my seeing, squirrel seeing, human seeing, . . . just seeing. Just a fleeting conditioned dhamma gone in the same moment it appears! How can I compete with that? :-) Ken H #66429 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Dec 22, 2006 10:33 pm Subject: Glad Greeting! bhikkhu5 Friends: May you and all beings enjoy a Merry Christmas & a Happy New-Year bringing many fruits of real progress both mentally and materially! Yet nothing comes into being without an exact cause have been provided! To avoid all Evil. To do only Good. To Purify Mind. This is the Message of all the Buddhas… Dhammapada 183 Please advantageously consider these two: “What good to others did I do in 2006?â€? “What wrong to others did I do in 2006?â€? The intelligent & honest may be surprised & even shocked! Metteyya – the Friendly One - The next Buddha – the last in this universal cycle! Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Ceylon * <....> #66431 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Dec 23, 2006 1:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Stressing sila & Cutting off at feeling jonoabb Hi Howard upasaka@... wrote: >> (I'm not sure >> what you have in mind when you say that emotion has a cognitive basis) >> > ============================= > It's the old (Indian) standard, Jon: You're walking in the > forest/jungle at nightfall, when, suddenly, you get goosebumps, a rapid heartbeat, rapid, > ragged breathing, sweating, and shaking, because, right in front of you on > the path, it seems, lies a coiled snake about to strike. That is emotion based > on cognition. But all that upset ceases, when, with a sigh of relief, you > discover that it is but a coiled rope on the ground. There isn't nor was there a > snake. Understood. But the same emotion may arise during a dream. Could that emotion also be said to have a cognitive basis? Just trying to relate to your comment (which, as I recall, was attributed to Matt, and is not necessarily your own viewpoint). Jon #66432 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Dec 23, 2006 1:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Please Help me with Vipassana! jonoabb Hi Bill bjones6513 wrote: > Hi Jon, > I don't mind discussion which may display different view points. That's > how we find the truth. As I said previously, I just didn't want to discourage > the person who attended the Goenka retreat from practicing the way they > were practicing, especially when they turned to this group for advice. > > I'm in no means discouraged. Enough said. Have a good holiday season. > Well said! Best holiday wishes to you, too. Jon #66433 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Dec 23, 2006 1:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Questioning your response jonoabb Hi Nina Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Jon, > that is beautifully expressed: > > 'practice in accordance with the dhamma' > > is simply the arising of panna that is conditioned by what has been > > heard, understood and reflected upon in the sense of being related to > > the present moment. None of these are conventional actions. > > It is the (latent) accumulation of previously developed > > panna that makes possible the arising of panna in this lifetime if the > > right conditions are in place, and it is just this (re)arising of > > accumulated panna that is the 'practice' and the development of > > the path. > > I find this so true. > I was sure you'd agree (not least because I've been reading your writings for so many years now ;-)). And as you would say, it can be verified in our daily life. > I take up the thread end Jan. Trans;ator of ADL in dutch asked me to > finish checking before Bgk, I am hard pressed as to time. > I'm sure you have a lot to get done before you fly off to Bkk. Looking forward to seeing you and Lodewijk there. Jon #66434 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Dec 23, 2006 1:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pali dictionary jonoabb Hi Bill bjones6513 wrote: > Hi Jon, > In answer to your question about my understanding of the Abhidhamma, > I've done quite alot of reading including A comprehensive Manual of > Abhidhamma, ed. Bhikkhu Bodhi, Abhidhamma Studies and several texts > from the Pali Text Society. I'm interested in not only intellectually > understanding these readings but also realizing them through a > meditative practice. > I can see you're serious about this, and I think that's great. As you will find stated often here, the teaching contained in the Abhidhamma and the teaching contained in the Suttas is one and the same teaching, but explained in different language (actually, there is quite a lot of straight Abhidhamma in the Suttas, and there are Sutta-like narratives in the Abhidhamma) The Abhidhamma is a great help in coming to the correct intellectual understanding of the teachings, as a basis for the practice. > My criteria for a teacher at this moment is a > meditation master in the Forest tradition, someone who has > experienced the teachings of the Buddha. > I wish you luck in your search. I think the problem is going to be knowing who is a person who has 'experienced the teachings of the Buddha'. I'm just wondering if the teachers in the tradition you mention encourage the study of the Tipitaka and other texts, or have any personal background in Abhidhamma. Jon #66435 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Dec 23, 2006 3:46 am Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 618- Wholesome Deeds(o) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) =============================================== Wholesome Deeds contd We read in the Dhammapada (verse 109)(1) about the fruits of paying respect: He of respectful nature who Ever the elders honouring, Four qualities for him increase: Long-life and beauty, happiness and strength. *** 1) I am using the translation by Ven. Khantipalo, in The Buddhist Monk’s Discipline, Wheel no. 130/131, B.P.S. Kandy. ***** Wholesome Deeds to be contd Metta, Sarah ====== #66436 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Dec 23, 2006 12:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] elements of experience / was Re: Gratitude vs kamma-vipaka upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and Sarah) - In a message dated 12/23/06 12:52:39 AM Eastern Standard Time, ken_aitch@... writes: > S: Meanwhile, take good care of your eyes -- we need them in good > shape here for all the controversies!! > ---------------------- > > Ha ha! Nothing I can say can be in the least bit controversial when > compared to the Dhamma. The Dhamma is actually telling us that seeing > is only seeing - not your seeing, my seeing, squirrel seeing, human > seeing, . . . just seeing. Just a fleeting conditioned dhamma gone in > the same moment it appears! How can I compete with that? :-) > ======================== LOLOL! Ken, my eyesight is good enough for me to catch the 'squirrel'! ;-)) I must say, I really enjoyed your subtlety in putting that in. Returning to my post to Nina which I presume was basis for your including the word here, I suppose I might best have written the word seeing as "seeing" in the following: ************************************* (Nina having written) > Yes, there is calm with each kusala citta, and many degrees of calm. > Then we can cling to calm, it is so pleasant. > It is all right, so long as it is realised as such, a conditioned nama. > So, I wish you an easing off of pain and many fruitful moments of > understanding during the festive days with your family. There is > seeing when you are alone in the room for meditation, but also seeing > in the church, or when chatting with your family. Seeing is the same > everywhere. -------------------------------------- Howard: There is seeing by squirrels as well, Nina. ***************************************** My point, of course, was not the quality of the seeing per se, but what additional, enormously beneficial cetasikas are present with consciousness through eye door or any other sense door during proper meditation, including heightened clarity, equanimity, energy, and understanding. The difference, to analogize, is like the difference between seeing with the naked eye under mediocre conditions and seeing with a fine microscope that is not shaky, and with excellent illumination. With metta, Howard #66437 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Dec 23, 2006 12:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Stressing sila & Cutting off at feeling upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 12/23/06 4:40:44 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonabbott@... writes: > Hi Howard > > > > >>(I'm not sure > >>what you have in mind when you say that emotion has a cognitive basis) > >> > >============================= > > It's the old (Indian) standard, Jon: You're walking in the > >forest/jungle at nightfall, when, suddenly, you get goosebumps, a rapid > heartbeat, rapid, > >ragged breathing, sweating, and shaking, because, right in front of you on > >the path, it seems, lies a coiled snake about to strike. That is emotion > based > >on cognition. But all that upset ceases, when, with a sigh of relief, you > >discover that it is but a coiled rope on the ground. There isn't nor was > there a > >snake. > > Understood. But the same emotion may arise during a dream. Could that > emotion also be said to have a cognitive basis? -------------------------------------------- Howard: Of course, just as with the rope-snake example. Cognition needn't be correct. In fact it typically fails in correctness, and dreaming is an excellent and frequent simile for our unawakened (i.e., unenlightened) state. --------------------------------------------- > > Just trying to relate to your comment (which, as I recall, was > attributed to Matt, and is not necessarily your own viewpoint). -------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, but I do agree with Matt on that point. This, in fact, is why wisdom liberates us not only cognitively but also affectively, and even merely correct *intellectual* understanding, as obtained for example from hearing the Dhamma and thinking it over, is tremendously beneficial affectively as well as cognitively. This is true. --------------------------------------------- > > Jon > ====================== With metta, Howard #66438 From: "robmoult" Date: Sat Dec 23, 2006 6:27 am Subject: If not pakatupanissaya, then what else? robmoult Hi Nina / Sarah / All, For some time, I have felt that I am placing too much emphasis on the importance of Natural Decisive Support Condition (pakatupanissaya). I am concerned that the texts do no support my views in this area. For example, I use pakatupanissaya to explain why some objects catch the attention of the mind (i.e. become "very great") and why the mind chooses to continue processing certain objects ("continue processing" involves the stream of mind-door processes). If not pakatupanissaya, then what else? I use pakatupanissaya to explain why on some occasions wise attention is applied to an object and on some occasions, unwise attention is applied. If not pakatupanissaya, then what else? I use pakatupanissaya to explain why our reaction to an object may involve strong volition and on other occasions, our reaction may involve weak volition. If not pakatupanissaya, then what else? I use pakatupanissaya to explain déjà vu and "love at first sight". If not pakatupanissaya, then what else? I use pakatupanissaya to explain the timing of jhana or sainthood mental processes. If not pakatupanissaya, then what else? I would be interested in anybody's viewpoint. Metta, Rob M :-) #66439 From: "Joop" Date: Sat Dec 23, 2006 6:44 am Subject: Re: Faults of Goenka's Meditation Method jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Bill, > > I said I would post a full explanation of the faults of Goenka's > teachings, so here goes: .... Hallo James, Bill, Melek, Sarah, Howard, all It is a long time ago (a year i think) ago we had a discussion about the vipassana-meditation. In fact: about the two kinds of vipassana-meditation: à la Goenka and à la Mahasi Some say there are three kinds, also à la U Ba Khin but I don't know much of this method. (The fourths is of course à la mrs. Sujin, but that not the topic now) What I remember of a year ago was you said more or less that Vipassana à la mahasi was not according the words of the Buddha but less fault then a la Goenka. When I understand your message of yesterday, you know say: it's according the Satipatthana Sutta and in this way practising 'right mindfulness': you got more tolerant ? That is what is several times said to me (by vipassana teachers) although the Mahasi method is not literally explained in this Sutta. I think the main difference between a la Mahasi and a la Goenka is, that in Mahasi all is observed whatever is arising during meditation (distinguishable in the four bases); and in Goenka the body-scan (body-sweep) and the accent on physical sensations. I agree with most of your message, except one important point: your statement "It is a dead end" I have seen in my weekly meditation (mahasi-style) group persons who did a ten days Goenka retreat and because they wanted to continue, were looking for a group and found ours. What I have seen that they changed, or better: extented, their way of observing the sensations. So the Goenka method can be a beginning of the Buddhist path and is not per se a dead end. More general: there is more than one way to start a buddhistic path. In Mahayana this is called 'upaya' (skilful means). I can even accept the principle "no other practice during a ten days Goenka retreat", but dangerous is the principle "not other practice at all, alo not after the Goenka retreat" (I'm not sure the last one is a existing principle but I got the impression its is). Strange is James: "… Goenka teaches that the highest state of meditation practice is when the practitioner observes the body as being composed of waves of vibrations …" Does he really teach this? It's a kind of New Age thinking (Capra for example) I don't like at all. You continu this quote with "instead of jhanas"; what do you mean with this: is the body composed of jhanas? In that case I don't agree with you. (I have another problem with Goenka meditation, based on my anarchistic attitude: it's so well organised, it's a multinational in which everywhere in the world excactly the same system is teached, a la McDonald with everywere in the world exactly the same food offered. But's that not a fundamental points, other people don't have a problem with this) Metta Joop #66440 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Dec 23, 2006 3:29 am Subject: From a Mahayana Sutra upasaka_howard Hi all - I thought this might be of interest to some who have the expectation that Mahayana notions will always strike them as foreign. It is apparently from one of the "perfection of wisdom" sutras of early Mahayana: _______________ Subhuti asked: "How can the practitioner who wishes to help all beings find enlightenment awaken to the complete and perfect wisdom?" The Buddha said: "This most subtle awakening comes about through moment-to-moment attentiveness. By way of attentiveness, there is attunement to the ways in which things manifest, such as form and consciousness. The practitioner awakens to perfect wisdom by becoming blissfully free from obsessions with habits, names, sense experiences, personal feelings, and with dread of dying and all the despair that goes with it." -Prajnaparamita With metta, Howard #66441 From: "Larry" Date: Sat Dec 23, 2006 9:38 am Subject: Re: If not pakatupanissaya, then what else? lbidd2 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > > Hi Nina / Sarah / All, > > For some time, I have felt that I am placing too much emphasis on the > importance of Natural Decisive Support Condition (pakatupanissaya). I > am concerned that the texts do no support my views in this area. > > For example, I use pakatupanissaya to explain why some objects catch > the attention of the mind (i.e. become "very great") and why the mind > chooses to continue processing certain objects ("continue processing" > involves the stream of mind-door processes). If not pakatupanissaya, > then what else? > > I use pakatupanissaya to explain why on some occasions wise attention > is applied to an object and on some occasions, unwise attention is > applied. If not pakatupanissaya, then what else? > > I use pakatupanissaya to explain why our reaction to an object may > involve strong volition and on other occasions, our reaction may > involve weak volition. If not pakatupanissaya, then what else? > > I use pakatupanissaya to explain déjà vu and "love at first sight". > If not pakatupanissaya, then what else? > > I use pakatupanissaya to explain the timing of jhana or sainthood > mental processes. If not pakatupanissaya, then what else? > > I would be interested in anybody's viewpoint. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) > Hi Rob, Good to see you! Natural decisive support condition is given in the Visuddhimagga as a way of explaining how accumulations condition desire (tanha) in dependent arising. However, I would say the favoured all-purpose condition in the texts is proximity condition because the proximate cause of every dhamma is given. The proximate cause of insight is concentration (samadhi). The proximate cause of concentration is pleasure (piti). Is there a lesson here? Yes, cultivate what gives you pleasure. Merry Christmas or Happy Celebration of Loving Kindness! Larry (I'll be away until monday night) #66442 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Dec 23, 2006 10:47 am Subject: shoulder bicep surgery and meditation. nilovg Hi Howard, I like to talk with you about meditation, but not in a debate way! --------- thinking is done > either with kusala citta or akusala citta. We better find out ourselves. ------------------------------------------- Howard: You are right. That is why I meditate, Nina, and that is how I've gotten much closer to the dhamma level of observing. Meditation isn't nonsense. It is REAL, and it makes a difference. The ordinary state of mind is, indeed, quite ordinary, and doesn't compare in clarity to that of the meditative mind. --------------------------------------- N: When at midnite mass, you can meditate on the Buddha; without him > you would not know much about citta, about defilements. --------------------------------------------- Howard: That's not meditating - it's thinking. --------------------------------------------- N: See, now I am lost. Those who cultivate jhana begin by thinking of a meditation subject, and that with kusala cittas. This is a condition sine qua non: one has to know whether the present citta is kusala or akusala. I take meditation to be wider: bhavana or mental development. I reflect on the Tiika to the Visuddhimagga. I reflect on the Abhidhamma. Or, insight meditation, but only a beginning, the very beginning: investigating the characteristic of visible object or sound when it appears. If thinking is not meditation, what is it? What do you feel, notice, are aware of when meditating? Observing is also done with a citta, and that citta has an object. What is the citta like, is it citta of the sense sphere, thus citta that experiences the objects through the six doors, or , if that is not the case, is it jhanacitta? But see my post on samatha tonight: then the jhanafactors must have been developed. Vitakka, vicara, piiti etc. We have to be sure it is all kusala. I heard the expression trance-like experience, but that can be something one has accumulated in former lives. It can also be the wrong jhana. Precision is essential here. -------- When the > > citta is kusala, there is also right effort, but it is momentary. Not > a long time of it. There are likely to be also moments of akusala > effort. Each time we say: I am making an effort, it means that there > are countless cittas arising and falling away. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Of course. So what? ---------------------------------------------- N: Important to know lest we think of effort as lasting and being manageable by a self. ..... there are conditions for wise > attention to the object at that moment, even if it is sleepiness. But > there is sound, or hearing, or what is visible. Thus, you have heard > about kusala and akusala, and there is understanding of the benefit > of kusala, the danger of akusala. This is a very important > condition. It is understanding that has to sink in, and then > accumulated understanding can condition the arising again of kusala > citta with understanding. -------------------------------------- Howard: Talking of ordinary occasions as if they were moments of meditating is just talk. It is not fact. If you meditated, Nina, you would know first-hand the difference. ---------------------------------------- N: When speaking of vipassana, the objects are just ordinary and that is good. Vipassana is to be applied to real life, also now. That is why I talked about seeing being the same everywhere: its characteristic has to be studied with understanding and awareness, otherwise it is all the time: I see. But what is the difference then with what you mean by meditation? -------------------------------------- Howard: There is seeing by squirrels as well, Nina. I frankly think the Buddha would be astounded at the ideas put forth here as to what constitutes practice. ------------------------------------- N: A monk sees an object with the eye, he hears a sound with the ear, sutta after sutta. About all the ordinary, daily objects experienced through the six doors. Nina. #66443 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Dec 23, 2006 10:44 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily Life, 160 nilovg Dear friends, Summarizing the five jhåna-factors, necessary for the attainment of the first stage of jhåna, they are: vitakka, applied thinking vicåra, sustained thinking píti, enthusiasm, rapture or happiness sukha, happy feeling or bliss samådhi, concentration The Atthasåliní (Expositor I, Book I, Part V, chapter I, 165) states concerning the jhåna-factors which inhibit the hindrances: ... For it is said that the Hindrances are opposed to the jhåna- factors, which are hostile to them and dispel and destroy them. Likewise it is said, in the ``Peìakopadesa'', that concentration is opposed to sensuous desire, rapture (píti) to ill-will, initial application of mind (vitakka) to sloth and torpor, bliss (sukha) to flurry and worry (uddhacca and kukkucca), sustained application of mind (vicåra) to perplexity (vicikicchå, doubt)... The jhåna-factors have to be developed in order to temporarily eliminate the hindrances. For the person who wants to develop the jhåna-factors and attain jhåna a great deal of preparation is required. We read in the Visuddhimagga (II, 1 and III, 1) that the person who wants to cultivate samatha should be well established in síla (morality), which is purified by such qualities as fewness of wishes, contentment, effacement, seclusion, energy and modest needs. Síla will become more perfected by the observation of ascetic practices (as described in Ch II of the Visudhimagga), which pertain mostly to the monk with regard to the use of his robes, his almsfood and his place of dwelling. In the Buddha's time laypeople too could attain jhåna, if they had accumulated the inclination and skill to develop it and if they would lead a life which was compatible with its development. One should lead a secluded life and many conditions have to be fulfilled. Jhåna is quite incompatible with sense desires. One has to be ``quite secluded from sense desires...'' in order to attain jhåna, as we read in many suttas. The Visuddhimagga (IV, 81) explains that sense-desires are incompatible with the attainment of jhåna. The development of jhåna is not for everyone. Jhåna cannot be attained if one leads a ``worldly life'', full of sense-pleasures, instead of a life of ``fewness of wishes, seclusion, modest needs''. **** Nina. #66444 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Dec 23, 2006 5:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: If not pakatupanissaya, then what else? upasaka_howard Hi, Larry (and Rob) - In a message dated 12/23/06 12:42:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@... writes: > However, I would say the favoured all-purpose condition in the texts is > proximity > condition because the proximate cause of every dhamma is given. The > proximate cause of > insight is concentration (samadhi). The proximate cause of concentration is > pleasure (piti). > Is there a lesson here? Yes, cultivate what gives you pleasure. > ====================== Humor, eh? ;-)) BTW, a translation that I saw of the Upanisa Sutta the following summary by the translator: __________ The twelve stages of transcendent dependent origination consist of: > (1) suffering which gives rise to > (2) faith which gives rise to > (3) gladness (or joy) which gives rise to > (4) rapture which gives rise to > (5) tranquility which gives rise to > (6) happiness which gives rise to > (7) concentration which gives rise to > (8) the knowledge and vision of things as they really are which gives rise > to > (9) revulsion (or disenchantment) which gives rise to > (10) dispassion which gives rise to > (11) liberation (or emancipation) which gives rise to > (12) the knowledge of the destruction of the defilements. ------------------------ The proximate cause given there for concentration is happiness. Would the Pali be 'sukha' rather than 'piti', the latter which I think of as signifying rapture, a state that involves excitement. Bhikkhu Bodhi, the same as the above site, gives "happiness" as the English rendering, but Thanissaro Bhikkhu gives "pleasure". Also, Bhikkhu Bodhi speaks of "supportive cause", Thanissaro Bhikkhu "prerequisite", and the site from which I quoted the summary above gave "proximate cause". So, translations seem to run the gamut. With metta, Howard #66445 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Dec 23, 2006 10:52 am Subject: Letters on Vipassana IV, 3 nilovg Dear friends, We are used to an idea of self who can exert effort but there is no one. We read in the "Visuddhimagga" (XVI,90) : Mere suffering exists, no sufferer is found; The deeds are, but no doer of the deeds is there; Nibbåna is, but not the man who attains it; Although there is a path, there is no goer. There is a path and it can be developed but there is no self who can develop it. If there is no development of right understanding we are tied down to all the sense objects, we are tied down to the cycle of birth and death. We read in the "Kindred Sayings" (III, Khandha vagga, Middle Fifty, Ch V, par. 99, The Leash) that the Buddha said at Såvatthí: Just as, monks, a dog tied up by a leash to a strong stake or pillar, keeps running round and revolving round and round that stake or pillar, evenso, monks, the untaught manyfolk... regard body as self, regard feeling, perception, activities, consciousness as self... they run and revolve round and round from body to body, from feeling to feeling, from perception to perception, from activities to activities, from consciousness to consciousness... they are not released therefrom, they are not released from rebirth, from old age and decay, from sorrow and grief, from woe, lamentation and despair... they are not released from dukkha, I declare... We then read that the ariyan disciple who does not take any reality for self is released from dukkha. In the following sutta, "The Leash" II, we read again about the simile of the dog which is tied: Just like a dog, monks, tied up by a leash to a strong stake or pillar- if he goes, he goes up to that stake or pillar; if he stands still, he stands close to that stake or pillar; if he squats down, he squats close to that stake or pillar; if he lies down, he lies close to that stake or pillar. Those who take the five khandhas for self are like that dog which is tied down. They are always close to the five khandhas, they are tied down to it. A dog tied to a pole, which runs around it and always has to stay close to it, is a pitiful sight. So long as we take the khandhas for self we are not free. Through the development of satipaììhåna the idea of self can be eradicated. ****** Nina. #66446 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Dec 23, 2006 11:13 am Subject: If not pakatupanissaya... nilovg Dear Rob M, ------- For example, I use pakatupanissaya to explain why some objects catch the attention of the mind (i.e. become "very great") and why the mind chooses to continue processing certain objects ("continue processing" involves the stream of mind-door processes). If not pakatupanissaya, then what else? ------ N: As Sarah just reminded us, when very great is used of an object it refers to the process being able to run its full course. Also, some objects can be predominant, the Atth mentions this. It is by accumulations that some people are attracted by this object, others by that, and that is pakatupanissaya. -------- R: I use pakatupanissaya to explain why on some occasions wise attention is applied to an object and on some occasions, unwise attention is applied. If not pakatupanissaya, then what else? ------ N: yes. Accumulated inclinations, but there are other conditions: friendship, and this also falls under pakatupanissaya. The place where one lives, etc. Think of the four wheels sutta. ------- R: I use pakatupanissaya to explain why our reaction to an object may involve strong volition and on other occasions, our reaction may involve weak volition. If not pakatupanissaya, then what else? ------ N: We have to know whether this volition is kusala or akusala. These can have different intensities. pakatupanissaya. -------- R: I use pakatupanissaya to explain déjà vu and "love at first sight". If not pakatupanissaya, then what else? ------ N: It is an experience of the past that is remembered by sa~n~naa. Also sa~n~naa plays an important part. When we say: pakatupanissaya, it is good to differentiate it more and not just give that one expression as answer. ------- R: I use pakatupanissaya to explain the timing of jhana or sainthood mental processes. If not pakatupanissaya, then what else? ------ N: Many conditions have to be fulfilled. The enlightenment factors, the perfections. They have to be cultivated during many, many lives. Certainly, they are accumulated, but we have to explain more in detail. We have to explain how each of the perfections support pa~n~naa and that none of them should be lacking in strength. If metta is still deficient in comparison with the other perfections it has to be developed further. So, pakatupanissaya includes many other aspects. If there were no proximity-condition, accumulations could not be carried on from moment to moment. As to he timing of jhana or sainthood mental processes, here we think of contiguity condition and of the fact that cittas arising in processes do so according to a fixed order: citta niyama. First mahaa- kusala cittas with pa~n~na, gotrabhu, and then citttas which are jhanacittas or lokuttara cittas. Nina. #66447 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Dec 23, 2006 11:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] From a Mahayana Sutra nilovg Hi Howard, This is good. He becomes free from the obsesion of a self, and this is expressed by the words quoted below, names, etc. Nina. Op 23-dec-2006, om 17:29 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > The practitioner > awakens to perfect wisdom by becoming blissfully free from > obsessions with habits, > names, sense experiences, personal feelings, and with dread of > dying and all > the despair that goes with it." #66448 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Dec 23, 2006 6:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] shoulder bicep surgery and meditation. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 12/23/06 1:53:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > I like to talk with you about meditation, but not in a debate way! ------------------------------------- Howard: I don't quite understand that. Does it mean we must agree or that we hide our disagreements? I have no interest in scoring points or "winning", if that is what you have in mind. ----------------------------------- > > --------- > > thinking is done > >either with kusala citta or akusala citta. We better find out > ourselves. > > ------------------------------------------- > Howard: > You are right. That is why I meditate, Nina, and that is how I've > gotten much closer to the dhamma level of observing. Meditation isn't > nonsense. It > is REAL, and it makes a difference. The ordinary state of mind is, > indeed, > quite ordinary, and doesn't compare in clarity to that of the > meditative mind. > --------------------------------------- > N: When at midnite mass, you can meditate on the Buddha; without him > >you would not know much about citta, about defilements. > --------------------------------------------- > Howard: > That's not meditating - it's thinking. > > --------------------------------------------- > N: See, now I am lost. Those who cultivate jhana begin by thinking of > a meditation subject, and that with kusala cittas. This is a > condition sine qua non: one has to know whether the present citta is > kusala or akusala. I take meditation to be wider: bhavana or mental > development. I reflect on the Tiika to the Visuddhimagga. I reflect > on the Abhidhamma. Or, insight meditation, but only a beginning, the > very beginning: investigating the characteristic of visible object or > sound when it appears. -------------------------------------- Howard: Meditation on the breath can be done as a strictly samatha vehicle or as a strictly vipassana vehicle or, as I understand the Buddha to have presented it, as an in-tandem vehicle. In any case, it does not involve thinking. When one is engaged in breath-centered meditation, there is not thinking - there is observing, refraining from "getting lost", and relinquishing. Thoughts will come and go, and they are among the phenomena observed (and let go of). ----------------------------------------- > > If thinking is not meditation, what is it? What do you feel, notice, > are aware of when meditating? ---------------------------------------- Howard: Generally, much of whatever arises is noticed. And most especially there is noticed a growing peace/ease, joy, and unusual clarity. The clarity is especially striking as compared to other times. When the meditation goes well, fewer and fewer thoughts arise, and one rarely "hops on the train". ------------------------------------------ > > Observing is also done with a citta, and that citta has an object. ------------------------------------------- Howard: There are many objects that arise and cease. ------------------------------------------ > > What is the citta like, is it citta of the sense sphere, thus citta > that experiences the objects through the six doors, or , if that is > not the case, is it jhanacitta? But see my post on samatha tonight: > then the jhanafactors must have been developed. Vitakka, vicara, > piiti etc. We have to be sure it is all kusala. I heard the > expression trance-like experience, but that can be something one has > accumulated in former lives. It can also be the wrong jhana. > Precision is essential here. ----------------------------------------- Howard: I have experienced jhana, and I may still enter the 1st jhana at times, but it is never a trance. I cannot speak for others. ---------------------------------------- > > -------- > > When the > > >citta is kusala, there is also right effort, but it is momentary. Not > >a long time of it. There are likely to be also moments of akusala > >effort. Each time we say: I am making an effort, it means that there > >are countless cittas arising and falling away. > > ----------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Of course. So what? > ---------------------------------------------- > N: Important to know lest we think of effort as lasting and being > manageable by a self. > ..... there are conditions for wise --------------------------------------------- Howard: I think of effort as a complex process consisting of a multitude of factors, all impersonal. ---------------------------------------------- > >attention to the object at that moment, even if it is sleepiness. But > >there is sound, or hearing, or what is visible. Thus, you have heard > >about kusala and akusala, and there is understanding of the benefit > >of kusala, the danger of akusala. This is a very important > >condition. It is understanding that has to sink in, and then > >accumulated understanding can condition the arising again of kusala > >citta with understanding. > > -------------------------------------- > Howard: > Talking of ordinary occasions as if they were moments of meditating is > just talk. It is not fact. If you meditated, Nina, you would know > first-hand > the difference. > ---------------------------------------- > N: When speaking of vipassana, the objects are just ordinary and that > is good. Vipassana is to be applied to real life, also now. That is > why I talked about seeing being the same everywhere: its > characteristic has to be studied with understanding and awareness, > otherwise it is all the time: I see. ---------------------------------------- Howard: Cetasikas during meditation are not ordinary, in particular, the intensity is not ordinary for certain key cetasikas including mindfulness, concentration, attention, energy, and placidity. But, Nina, I can talk about this forever without conveying the reality. It has to be seen for oneself. ---------------------------------------- > > But what is the difference then with what you mean by meditation? > > -------------------------------------- > Howard: > There is seeing by squirrels as well, Nina. I frankly think the Buddha > would be astounded at the ideas put forth here as to what constitutes > practice. > ------------------------------------- > N: A monk sees an object with the eye, he hears a sound with the ear, > sutta after sutta. About all the ordinary, daily objects experienced > through the six doors. > > Nina. > ==================== With metta, Howard #66449 From: "icarofranca" Date: Sat Dec 23, 2006 1:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] shoulder bicep surgery and meditation. icarofranca Hi Howard! Respectfully etc, etc.... I am trimming this Howard´s EXCELLENT personal report on Jhana as good as possible! That´s Jhana in a Nutshell! >----------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Meditation on the breath can be done as a strictly samatha >vehicle or > as a strictly vipassana vehicle or, as I understand the Buddha to >have > presented it, as an in-tandem vehicle. In any case, it does not >involve thinking. > When one is engaged in breath-centered meditation, there is not >thinking - there > is observing, refraining from "getting lost", and relinquishing. >Thoughts will > come and go, and they are among the phenomena observed (and let go >of). > ----------------------------------------- > > Howard: > I have experienced jhana, and I may still enter the 1st >jhana at > times, but it is never a trance. I cannot speak for others. > ---------------------------------------- >: > I think of effort as a complex process consisting of a >multitude of > factors, all impersonal. > ---------------------------------------------- > > Talking of ordinary occasions as if they were moments of >meditating is > > just talk. It is not fact. If you meditated, Nina, you would >know > > first-hand > > the difference. > > ---------------------------------------- > > N: When speaking of vipassana, the objects are just ordinary and >that > > is good. Vipassana is to be applied to real life, also now. That >is > > why I talked about seeing being the same everywhere: its > > characteristic has to be studied with understanding and >awareness, > > otherwise it is all the time: I see. > > ---------------------------------------- > Howard: > Cetasikas during meditation are not ordinary, in >particular, the > intensity is not ordinary for certain key cetasikas including >mindfulness, > concentration, attention, energy, and placidity. But, Nina, I can >talk about this > forever without conveying the reality. It has to be seen for >oneself. > ---------------------------------------- Very good! At a canonical basis, Jhana has a very compreensive fourfold structure, beginning with perfectly natural human forthcomings like Pitti and Sukkha - an intimate pleasure and happiness connected with the mindfullness own object: you can even try the "in tandem" Vipassana-Samatha Howard´s approach on the matter! IMHO if you consider the Jhanas as a sure remedy, the better cure of all, a Panacea against the overspread ill called Dukkha, you won´t go ashtray in your buddhistic approachs (even at Howard´s "in tandem" methods! ^_^) Mettaya, Ícaro #66450 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Dec 23, 2006 9:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] shoulder bicep surgery and meditation. upasaka_howard Hi, Icaro - In a message dated 12/23/06 4:18:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, icarofranca@... writes: > Very good! > At a canonical basis, Jhana has a very compreensive fourfold > structure, beginning with perfectly natural human forthcomings like > Pitti and Sukkha - an intimate pleasure and happiness connected with > the mindfullness own object: you can even try the "in tandem" > Vipassana-Samatha Howard´s approach on the matter! > IMHO if you consider the Jhanas as a sure remedy, the better cure > of all, a Panacea against the overspread ill called Dukkha, you > won´t go ashtray in your buddhistic approachs (even at Howard´s "in > tandem" methods! ^_^) > ==================== I thank you for your characteristic enthusiasm! ;-) I would like to emphasize, however, that jhana alone is but one element of eight, the factor of right concentration. Jhana, especially the 4th, is the perfect base upon which to carry out investigation of dhammas and cultivation of insight, but without using it in such a fashion, the goal cannot be reached. Jhana alone is not a panacea. Also, in order for meditation to proceed well and fruitfully, there is required, as support, cultivation during all the "ordinary" moments of one's life, including study of the Dhamma, practice of sila, guarding the senses, and an ongoing, mindful attention to whatever arises while going and coming, bend ing, sitting, rising, thinking, eating, and so on. One's practice and one's life must become a unity. The Dhamma is not a one-trick pony, even when that "trick" is meditation. ;-) With metta, Howard #66451 From: "robmoult" Date: Sat Dec 23, 2006 2:47 pm Subject: Re: If not pakatupanissaya... robmoult Hi Nina, Larry, Howard and All, Thanks for your replies. As Larry has pointed out, pakatupanissaya is one of the conditions involved in the explanation of Dependent Origination in the Visuddhimagga. In fact, I would say that it is the "most important" condition. Specifically: - Avijja conditions sankhara through pakatupanissaya and a bunch of other conditions (including proximity). Vism XVII 102, 103, 104 - Sankhara conditions vinnana through pakatupanissaya and asynchronous kamma. Vism XVII 177, 178, 179, 180, 181 - Nama-rupa, salayatna and phassa are conditioned through a bunch of conditions (not including pakatupanissaya nor proximity). Vism XVII 201, 207, 209, 211, 213, 215, 217, 227 - Phassa conditions vedana through pakatupanissaya and a bunch of other conditions (not including proximity). Vism XVII 231, 232 - Vedana conditions tanha through pakatupanissaya alone. Vism XVII 237, 238 - Tanha conditions upadana through pakatupanissaya and a bunch of other conditions (not including proximity). Vism XVII 248 - Upadana conditions bhava through through pakatupanissaya and a bunch of other conditions (not including proximity). Vism XVII 269 - Bhava conditions jati though pakatupanissaya and asynchronous kamma. (not in Vism, but the same conditions at work here as were at work when sankhara conditioned vinnana) - Jati conditions jara-marana through pakatupanissaya and asynchronous kamma. Vism 270, 272 In other words, pakatupanissaya clearly plays a central role in dependent origination. As Nina has corrected pointed out, there are always multiplicity of conditions at work and one should not ignore the other factors. Nevertheless, as I read Nina's reply, she seems to support my premise that pakatupanissaya plays an important role in many areas. This makes me wonder why so little has been written on such an important subject. An understanding of pakatupanissaya has a practical dimension as well. Once we appreciate that habits / accumulations impact our every thought when they are "strong", we can better understand the importance of regular practice (mental development / bhavana / meditation, whatever one wishes to call it). One can also understand the power of a vow (consider the vow of Sumeda the hermit, the power of which extended over countless lifetimes). Reflecting on pakatupanissaya shows the mechanical nature of the mind and helps us (at least intellectually) to understand anatta. So I am left wondering why so little has been written on such an important subject. Does anybody have any theories? Perhaps I should follow Nina's example and write a book myself! :-) Metta, Rob M :-) #66452 From: "icarofranca" Date: Sat Dec 23, 2006 2:48 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] shoulder bicep surgery and meditation. icarofranca Hi Howard! >------------------------------------------------------------------- "Jhana alone is not a panacea." >----------------------------------------------------------------- A very good correction, Howard! Thanks! .----------------------------------------------------------------- > Also, in order for meditation to proceed well and fruitfully, >there is > required, as support, cultivation during all the "ordinary" moments >of one's > life, including study of the Dhamma, practice of sila, guarding the >senses, > and an ongoing, mindful attention to whatever arises while going and >coming, bend > ing, sitting, rising, thinking, eating, and so on. One's practice >and one's > life must become a unity. >------------------------------------------------------------------- Such remarks really make the characteristic Theravada's "Flavour" of mindfullness: unlike other east schools like The Zen, on Theravada we get a 24/7 work on keeping one's mind clear and awake - not only at a "classical" half hour crosslegged sitted meditation session! >------------------------------------------------------------------- > The Dhamma is not a one-trick pony, even when that "trick" is > meditation. ;-) >------------------------------------------------------------------- And I was just thinking you've surrended yourself to Mahayana's moods like one finds on Diamond Sutra!!!! Mettaya and good cheer, Howard! Ícaro #66453 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Sat Dec 23, 2006 4:40 pm Subject: [dsg] elements of experience / was Re: Gratitude vs kamma-vipaka ken_aitch Hi Howard, -------------- H: > LOLOL! Ken, my eyesight is good enough for me to catch the 'squirrel'! ;-)) --------------- It wasn't me! Mara made me do it. :-) ----------------------- H: > Returning to my post to Nina which I presume was basis for your including the word here, I suppose I might best have written the word seeing as "seeing" in the following: ************************************* (Nina having written) > Yes, there is calm with each kusala citta, and many degrees of calm. > Then we can cling to calm, it is so pleasant. > It is all right, so long as it is realised as such, a conditioned nama. > So, I wish you an easing off of pain and many fruitful moments of > understanding during the festive days with your family. There is > seeing when you are alone in the room for meditation, but also seeing > in the church, or when chatting with your family. Seeing is the same > everywhere. -------------------------------------- Howard: There is seeing by squirrels as well, Nina. ***************************************** ------------------------- Sorry to interrupt, Howard, but this reminds me of something that has been of special interest to me lately. The Satipatthana Sutta describes being mindful of dhammas internally and externally. As explained on DSG, "externally" means that a bhikkhu can know, for example, a squirrel's eye consciousness. In what way could that be true? It couldn't be true in the sense of "looking" at a squirrel (or at his eye consciousness (?)). It could only be true in the sense of understanding what eye consciousness really is. When we rightly understand a dhamma (especially while directly experiencing it) we know it is not "mine" or anybody else's. Therefore, we know that "my" eye-consciousness is identical to "yours" and to "a squirrel's". ----------------------- H: > My point, of course, was not the quality of the seeing per se, but what additional, enormously beneficial cetasikas are present with consciousness through eye door or any other sense door during proper meditation, including heightened clarity, equanimity, energy, and understanding. ------------------------ As you know, I couldn't agree less. :-) Before joining DSG I would have agreed, but not now. My reasons for saying formal meditation makes no difference are much the same as your reasons for saying it does: ----------------------------------- H: > The difference, to analogize, is like the difference between seeing with the naked eye under mediocre conditions and seeing with a fine microscope that is not shaky, and with excellent illumination. ---------------------------------- Exactly! There is no real difference at all! The concept of seeing from a distance is no different from seeing through a telescope (or a microscope). It is still a concept. And the analogy holds good when we think of formal meditation. No amount of looking (with or without the concept of on-going equanimity) can turn looking into a reality. Enjoy your Christmas dinner, Howard, as will I. And remember; whether chewing and savouring in New York or in Noosa, gustatory consciousness is just gustatory consciousness, gustatory object is just gustatory object, and so on. Ken H #66454 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Dec 23, 2006 4:40 pm Subject: Re: Faults of Goenka's Meditation Method buddhatrue Hi Joop, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" > wrote: > What I remember of a year ago was you said more or less that > Vipassana à la mahasi was not according the words of the Buddha but > less fault then a la Goenka. James: I really don't think that it was me who said that. I know hardly nothing about the Mahasi method in order to make such a comparison. > When I understand your message of yesterday, you know say: it's > according the Satipatthana Sutta and in this way practising 'right > mindfulness': you got more tolerant ? James: I think you should re-check that message from yesterday. I wrote that Goenka doesn't follow Right Mindfulness (Satipatthana Sutta). > That is what is several times said to me (by vipassana teachers) > although the Mahasi method is not literally explained in this Sutta. > > I think the main difference between a la Mahasi and a la Goenka is, > that in Mahasi all is observed whatever is arising during meditation > (distinguishable in the four bases); and in Goenka the body-scan > (body-sweep) and the accent on physical sensations. James: I would have to take your word for it. Again, I am not familiar with the Mahasi method. > > I agree with most of your message, except one important point: your > statement "It is a dead end" > I have seen in my weekly meditation (mahasi-style) group persons who > did a ten days Goenka retreat and because they wanted to continue, > were looking for a group and found ours. What I have seen that they > changed, or better: extented, their way of observing the sensations. > So the Goenka method can be a beginning of the Buddhist path and is > not per se a dead end. James: Well, if they stick with the Goenka method, it is a dead end. If they change to a method more in keeping with what the Buddha taught, then it isn't necessarily a dead end. However, there is no guarantee that the practitioner will change. There are some who stick with the Goenka method for a lifetime. > More general: there is more than one way to start a buddhistic path. > In Mahayana this is called 'upaya' (skilful means). > > I can even accept the principle "no other practice during a ten days > Goenka retreat", but dangerous is the principle "not other practice > at all, alo not after the Goenka retreat" (I'm not sure the last one > is a existing principle but I got the impression its is). > > Strange is James: "… Goenka teaches that the highest state of > meditation practice is when the practitioner observes the body as > being composed of waves of vibrations …" > Does he really teach this? James: Yes, he does. I am very familiar with Goenka having practiced his method for 15 years and read his literature several times. It's a kind of New Age thinking (Capra for > example) I don't like at all. James: Well, it does occur. One will see that the body is composed of vibrations of energy and that nothing is solid. However, this observation doesn't lead to liberation because it doesn't rid the mind of the three poisons: greed, hatred, and delusion. > You continu this quote with "instead of jhanas"; what do you mean > with this: is the body composed of jhanas? > In that case I don't agree with you. James: No, I did not mean that the body is composed of jhanas. What I meant is that one should experience the jhanas as an overall body experience, not seeing the vibrational nature of matter (rupa). > > (I have another problem with Goenka meditation, based on my > anarchistic attitude: it's so well organised, it's a multinational in > which everywhere in the world excactly the same system is teached, a > la McDonald with everywere in the world exactly the same food > offered. But's that not a fundamental points, other people don't have > a problem with this) James: I have a problem with this also. Goenka's network is very much like a cult and he is the guru leader. > > Metta > > Joop > Metta, James #66455 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Dec 23, 2006 5:16 pm Subject: Re: shoulder bicep surgery and meditation. buddhatrue Hi Nina and Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > --------------------------------------- > N: When at midnite mass, you can meditate on the Buddha; without him > > you would not know much about citta, about defilements. > --------------------------------------------- > Howard: > That's not meditating - it's thinking. > > --------------------------------------------- > N: See, now I am lost. I am a little lost also because Recollection of the Buddha is a form of meditation. From the Vism.: "Now a meditator with absolute confidence who wants to develop firstly the recollection of the Enlightened One among these ten should go into solitary retreat in a favorable abode and recollect the special qualities of the Enlightened One, the Blessed One, as follows: `That Blessed One is such since he is accomplished, fully enlightened, endowed with [clear] vision and [virtuous] conduct, sublime, the knower of truths, the incomparable leader of men to be tamed, the teacher of gods and men, enlightened and blessed." VII, 2 Path of Purification Additionally, as the Vism. points out, this type of meditation cannot lead to jhana because it requires discursive thought: "As to which brings access only and which absorption: the eight recollections - excepting mindfulness occupied with the body and mindfulness of breathing-, the perception of repulsiveness in nutriment, and the defining of the four elements, are ten meditation subjects that bring access only. The others bring absorption." III, 106 Path of Purification Metta, James #66456 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Dec 23, 2006 12:19 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] elements of experience / was Re: Gratitude vs kamma-vipaka upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 12/23/06 7:44:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, ken_aitch@... writes: > It wasn't me! Mara made me do it. :-) > ======================= An insideous old coot! LOLOL! With metta, and all the best wishes for a great holiday season, Howard #66457 From: JC Mendoza Date: Sat Dec 23, 2006 6:38 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: permission from parents jcmendoza1000 To Ven. Dhammanando: How does this all translate to not being able to play games like chess, checkers, billiards, etc.? Dhammanando Bhikkhu wrote: Hi JC, > Is the word "visuukadassana" contained in the 7th precept? Yes. nacca-giita-vaadita-visuukadassanaa maalaa-gandha-vilepana-dhaara.na-ma.n.dana-vibhuusana.t.thaanaa verama.nii-sikkhaapada.m samaadiyaami. "I undertake the training precept of abstention from dancing, singing, music, contortionist shows, and from any opportunity for wearing garlands, smartening with scents, and embellishment with unguents." (~Naa.namoli) > If so, what exactly does it mean? Visuuka is rendered by ~Naa.namoli as contortionist, and by others as unfitting or unseemly. Dassana can mean seeing, or else an exhibition, show or display. Buddhaghosa allows that either of the meanings of dassana might apply here, and so he supplies two interpretations: "Contortionist show" (visuuka-dassana) is a showing of contortions, or a showing that is a contortion, by its corrupting what partakes of the kusala because of its being an occasion for the arising of defilement." (KhpA. 36; Minor Readings & Illustrator p.34) After this the commentator refers the reader to the "contortionist shows" described in the Brahmajaala Sutta. Then he offers an alternative interpretation: "... dancing, singing, and music, in the sense already stated, are themselves contortions (visuuka), thus [the meaning] is 'contortions consisting in dancing, singing and music', and the seeing (dassana) of them is 'seeing of contortions consisting in dancing, singing and music'. " (ibid.) He then notes that according to this second interpretation "seeing" is to be taken as including "hearing" also (e.g., in the case of singing and music). Best wishes, Dhammanando #66458 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Dec 23, 2006 1:40 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: shoulder bicep surgery and meditation. upasaka_howard Hi, James (and Nina) - In a message dated 12/23/06 8:20:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@... writes: > > Hi Nina and Howard, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom > wrote: > >--------------------------------------- > >N: When at midnite mass, you can meditate on the Buddha; without him > > >you would not know much about citta, about defilements. > >--------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > >That's not meditating - it's thinking. > > > >--------------------------------------------- > >N: See, now I am lost. > > I am a little lost also because Recollection of the Buddha is a form > of meditation. From the Vism.: > > "Now a meditator with absolute confidence who wants to develop > firstly the recollection of the Enlightened One among these ten > should go into solitary retreat in a favorable abode and recollect > the special qualities of the Enlightened One, the Blessed One, as > follows: > `That Blessed One is such since he is accomplished, fully > enlightened, endowed with [clear] vision and [virtuous] conduct, > sublime, the knower of truths, the incomparable leader of men to be > tamed, the teacher of gods and men, enlightened and blessed." > VII, 2 Path of Purification > > Additionally, as the Vism. points out, this type of meditation cannot > lead to jhana because it requires discursive thought: ---------------------------------------- Howard: Well, I can't argue with you on this. Despite its being a conceptual contemplation, not involving paramattha dhammas, it *is* given as a contemplative practice that can lead to full awakening in AN 1.287-296. There, it and all the other 9 recollections are said to lead to awakening! Possibly, some "recollections" that involve discursive thought should be considered as meditations that can lead to arahanthood, unless, of course, that sutta is spurious, a discovery that, were it to be made, would not be shocking for me. Such contemplations, while definitely useful as far as I'm concerned, are not what I usually mean by meditation. Perhaps I should extend my notion of what qualifies to be called such, yet I find myself very disinclined to do so. ----------------------------------------- > > "As to which brings access only and which absorption: the eight > recollections - excepting mindfulness occupied with the body and > mindfulness of breathing-, the perception of repulsiveness in > nutriment, and the defining of the four elements, are ten meditation > subjects that bring access only. The others bring absorption." > III, 106 Path of Purification > > Metta, > James > ========================= With metta, Howard #66459 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Dec 23, 2006 2:20 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: shoulder bicep surgery and meditation. upasaka_howard Hi again, James - In a message dated 12/23/06 9:49:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@... writes: > Howard: > Well, I can't argue with you on this. Despite its being a conceptual > contemplation, not involving paramattha dhammas, it *is* given as a > contemplative practice that can lead to full awakening in AN 1.287-296. > There, it and all > the other 9 recollections are said to lead to awakening! > Possibly, some "recollections" that involve discursive thought should > be considered as meditations that can lead to arahanthood, unless, of > course, > that sutta is spurious, a discovery that, were it to be made, would not be > shocking for me. Such contemplations, while definitely useful as far as I'm > concerned, are not what I usually mean by meditation. Perhaps I should > extend my > notion of what qualifies to be called such, yet I find myself very > disinclined > to do so. > ====================== The more I think I about it, the more suspect I am of the "recollection of the Buddha" as a practice that can itself lead to awakening or as a form of meditation. It sounds an awful lot like a later Brahmanical influence, an importing of devotionalism. I don't doubt that it is useful, however. I am satisfied with what is said about it in AN 11.13 as follows: _____________ "There is the case where you recollect the Tathagata: 'Indeed, the Blessed One is worthy and rightly self-awakened, consummate in knowledge & conduct, well-gone, an expert with regard to the world, unexcelled as a trainer for those people fit to be tamed, the Teacher of divine & human beings, awakened, blessed.' At any time when a disciple of the noble ones is recollecting the Tathagata, his mind is not overcome with passion, not overcome with aversion, not overcome with delusion. His mind heads straight, based on the Tathagata. And when the mind is headed straight, the disciple of the noble ones gains a sense of the goal, gains a sense of the Dhamma, gains joy connected with the Dhamma. In one who is joyful, rapture arises. In one who is rapturous, the body grows calm. One whose body is calmed experiences ease. In one at ease, the mind becomes concentrated." Mahanama, you should develop this recollection of the Buddha while you are walking, while you are standing, while you are sitting, while you are lying down, while you are busy at work, while you are resting in your home crowded with children. It certainly sounds like a useful practice, conducive to a calm and uplifted mind. With metta, Howard #66460 From: "nidive" Date: Sat Dec 23, 2006 9:33 pm Subject: Re: shoulder bicep surgery and meditation. nidive Hi Howard (& James), > The more I think I about it, the more suspect I am of the > "recollection of the Buddha" as a practice that can itself lead > to awakening or as a form of meditation. It sounds an awful lot > like a later Brahmanical influence, an importing of devotionalism. In one sutta, the Buddha actually speaks of himself as the Brahma. --------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.070.than.html And how is the defiled mind cleansed through the proper technique? There is the case where the disciple of the noble ones recollects the Tathagata... As he is recollecting the Tathagata, his mind is cleansed, and joy arises; the defilements of his mind are abandoned. He is thus called a disciple of the noble ones undertaking the Brahma- Uposatha. He lives with Brahma [= the Buddha]. It is owing to Brahma that his mind is calmed, that joy arises, and that whatever defilements there are in his mind are abandoned. This is how the mind is cleansed through the proper technique. --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Possibly, some "recollections" that involve discursive thought > should be considered as meditations that can lead to arahanthood, > unless, of course, that sutta is spurious, a discovery that, were > it to be made, would not be shocking for me. In your opinion, can discursive thinking lead to Awakening? I have always thought that in the Nagara Sutta, the Buddha is engaging in discursive thinking. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.065.than.html Swee Boon #66461 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Dec 23, 2006 10:29 pm Subject: Lay Faith! bhikkhu5 Friends: How is the Faith leading to Lay Discipleship? Having heard the Buddha speak the Lay Disciple exclaims: Excellent, Lord, excellent! It is as if someone were to set up right what had been knocked and turned upside-down, or it is as if someone revealed what was covered up and hidden, or it is as if someone pointed out the way to one who had got lost by going astray, or it is as if someone brought a lamp into a dark place, so that those with eyes could see the forms there! Exactly so has the Blessed Buddha explained this Dhamma in many various clear ways. Therefore do I, Venerable Sir, hereby take refuge in the Blessed Buddha, hereby take refuge in the true Dhamma, and hereby take refuge in the pure Sangha... May the Blessed Buddha accept and know me as a lay-follower from this day on and as long as this life shall last! So is the faith of those who after countless lives at last have accumulated and now possesses the right and ripe conditions for attaining the valuable state of lay disciple of a Buddha... This is the first step towards the Bliss of Deathless NibbÄ?na! Source: DN 2 The Fruits of Retreat: SÄ?maññaphala Sutta I 85 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.02.0.than.html Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Ceylon * http://What-Buddha-Said.net/ <....> #66462 From: "matt roke" Date: Sat Dec 23, 2006 11:31 pm Subject: [dsg] Stressing sila & Cutting off at feeling mattroke Hi Jon, >Jon: This is where you lose me, I'm afraid. If a person can have lobha for >*an object* then they are capable of stealing that object if the lobha is >gross enough. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------\ ------------------- A sotapanna or worldling may experience a pleasant site, sound, smell, bodily experience or concept that conditions lobha. If there is gross lobha for the experience then the worldling may steal, if it is an object that makes possible that experience. Unlike the sotapanna, the worldling does this because s/he takes the concept of that object to be real, something that can be possessed and they think that there is a self who can posses it. Even if a sotapanna had gross lobha I cannot see how they can steal when there is right understanding about realities and they do not take the object to be real. =================================================== >Jon: You are saying I think that the sotapanna always sees objects as only >dhammas that do not stay. I'm not sure that's correct. I think they see >objects as objects, but they do not take objects (or dhammas) for self. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------\ ------------------- If you mean *objects* are physical thing such as a glass, a tree or a house etc., then I would have to disagree that a sotapanna sees an object as an object. A sotapanna is not void of concepts, so they are aware of such things as a glass, a tree or a house. However, they do not take a house to be a house, they know that there are only visible objects followed by thinking that arise and fall away. They know that the visible objects and the thoughts that give rise to the concept *house* can’t be owned. Visible objects can’t be heard, smelt or felt, and they do not stay, so where is *house* in visible object and how can this visible object be owned? Sotapannas, as far as I understand, do not take the object to be object; neither the rupa experience through the sense doors (visible object etc.) nor the concept of the object. And they do not take the object to be mine or self. They understand that there is no object, there are only dhamma realities. ================================================== >Jon: I agree that is is the same clear comprehension of dhammas that >eradicates both wrong view of self and the grosser forms of lobha and dosa. >Have you considered the possibility that it is the eradication of the >grosser forms of lobha and dosa that accounts for the sotapanna's >incapacity to kill or steal, to break the >precepts, or to commit akusala kamma that can condition rebirth in the >lower planes? How can there be eradication of dhammas that have not yet arisen? The grosser forms of lobha and dosa are conditioned dhammas. They are conditioned by wrong understanding and what makes them not arise is right understanding. ================================================== I’m not sure that this makes things anymore clearer, it’s more or less the same as I have written before. Maybe we should wait until you come to Bangkok in January to discuss it further. Matt #66463 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Dec 24, 2006 12:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 597- The Stages of Insight(s) and audio sarahprocter... Dear Nina, Han & all, Correction: --- sarah abbott wrote: > S: Yes, the sotapanna still clings, but without attasanna and also, I > believe, without any attanupadana. He likes his hand, but doesn't take > it > for a 'thing' or a 'hand' (except in a conventional sense) and as you > say, > doesn't take any dhamma to last in anyway. <....> ... S: It should have read 'attavadupadana' (or attavaadupaadaana), of courseThis is the 4th kind of upadana. Not attanupadana. S. #66464 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Dec 24, 2006 12:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Insects and the Precept Against Killing jonoabb Hi Bill (and Howard) Hope you don't mind if I come in here. bjones6513 wrote: > Hi Howard, > Your statement regarding hypocrisy reminds me of an argument I > always have with my wife concerning eating meat. She says its okay to > eat meat as long as you don't kill it yourself. The way I see it, by eating > meat, whether killed by yourself or not, you are promoting the killing. I > don't see the difference. > One difference could be the intention involved. Eating meat killed by another does not require the intention to kill (nor the intention to promote killing). > What about the care of a parasite living in one's body? Is it okay to kill > it? In the case of the cockroaches, they are generally considered to > spread disease. Or the farmer who must kill to attend to his crops. Even > organic farmers have to kill insects. > There are ways of getting rid of insect pests other than by killing. Takes more effort (and skill), but can be done I believe. Jon #66465 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Dec 24, 2006 12:52 am Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 619- Wholesome Deeds(p) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) =============================================== Wholesome Deeds contd The “base of meritorious action” which is dutifulness or helpfulness is also an aspect of síla. When there are opportunities for helping others we tend to be lazy and forgetful, we are slow in our reactions instead of responding quickly to the needs of someone else. For example, when we are reading an interesting book we may not be inclined to get up and help someone who needs help. If we remember that there are many ways of helping others, that even helping in small matters is beneficial, there will be conditions to use such opportunities for kusala. We may, for example, show someone who got lost the right way, we may help someone in handing him a cup or a dish he needs, or we may help in listening to someone’s problems and giving him advice. ***** Wholesome Deeds to be contd Metta, Sarah ====== #66466 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Dec 24, 2006 1:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Insects and the Precept Against Killing sarahprocter... Hi JC (Bill & Phra Dhammanando), --- JC Mendoza wrote: > Hi everyone: > I read the article by Ajaan Lere Dhmmadaro, is it true that those other > consciousnesses that inhabit our body influence our thinking? I find > this, as well as other things in the article like having to be aware of > these consciousnesses as part of our advancement in the Dhamma, to be > very doubtful. > It says: <....> >" These > consciousnesses that lurk in our bodies without any bodies of their own: > They can get angry, too, you know. They can get greedy and deluded, they > can feel love and hate, just like us. Once they start feeling things > like this, and they're right next to us, our own consciousness follows > along with them, without our even realizing it. This is why there are so > many issues in the heart." > I'm doubting the truth of this article very much, did the Awakened One > ever say anything about these consciousnesses? .... S: I agree with your conclusions, JC. Btw, thank you for pursuing your other questions with Ven Dhammanando. It's an interesting and informative exchange. I like the way you pursue your questions until the issues are fully resolved. Metta, Sarah ====== #66467 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Dec 24, 2006 1:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Questioning your response, no 2. sarahprocter... Hi Howard, James (Rob M, Matt & Nina), > > Howard: > > I do not underestimate understanding. Wisdom is the sword > that cuts > > away defilements. But you say that listening and contemplating is > all that is > > required. As far as I'm concerned, that is not the teaching of the > Buddha. > > --------------------------------------------- James: > Right, this is not the teaching of the Buddha- it is the teaching of > Gnostic Yoga. Granted, there are those who will become enlightened > simply by listening and contemplating, but they must be ripe for > enlightenment by having a sufficient accumulation of wisdom. ..... S: I've followed the discussion with Nina with interest. I think we need to appreciate that there is ordinary 'listening and contemplating' and 'listening and contemplating' with wisdom! The Buddha taught about suta maya panna, cinta maya panna and bhavana maya panna. Suta maya panna refers to listening or knowledge with panna (wisdom). Cinta maya panna refers to reflection with panna. Bhavana maya panna refers to the development of direct wisdom. Without suta maya panna and cinta maya panna, there cannot be the development of satipatthana or any vipassana (insight)through bhavana maya panna. In other words, there has to have been the listening and reflecting with wisdom in order for the bhavana to develop. It's not a question of the quantity of such listening or reading, but of the panna or wisdom accompanying it. One person may read all the Tipitaka and memorize it too, yet be none the wiser. Another may hear just a few lines (like Sariputta), but due to the accumulated wisdom, be able to penetrate the deep meaning. (This is mainly due to natural decisive support condition which Rob M is emphasising.) So I don't believe it's ever a question of rule to listen (as we understand the word conventionally), to read particular texts or to follow any particular practice of any kind. As soon as we set any rule, immediately it is an indication that there is no 'listening', 'reflection' of understanding of the present dhamma appearing. Instead, we are thinking of future moments with expectation. So the practice always comes back to the direct awareness and understanding of the present impermenant dhammas. And what are they if not visual consciousness (or seeing), visual object, hearing or sound and so on? Even now as we read and reflect on what we 'hear', it can be a condition for awareness to arise right now, without any need to be concerned about breath or sensations or anything else. It'll depend on accumulations whether we appreciate the importance and value of understanding these present dhammas. When we lose confidence or start thinking in terms of particular methods or rules of practice, we move further and further away from understanding the nature of conditioned dhammas right now, as I see it, of course! (RobM - good to see you around! Matt, likewise! If either of you have more to add on this thread too, that would be nice.) Metta, Sarah ======= #66468 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Dec 24, 2006 1:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] So sweet dhamma.... sarahprocter... Hi Dinesh, --- jayasinghe.mudiyanse@... wrote: > Generosity, kind words, > doing a good turn for others, > and treating all people alike: > these bonds of sympathy are to the world what the lynch-pin is to the > chariot wheel. > > Anguttara Nikaya II, 32 > May all beings be happy & well. > See again Saturday, ..... S: Yes, these are sweet dhamma words. 'Treating all people alike'. This is true metta when we can share friendliness with whomever we asociate with, regardless of how we are treated or how others behave. Pls continue adding your short verses with any brief comments you care to add. Metta, Sarah ========== #66469 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Dec 24, 2006 1:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Christmas recepy. new member intro sarahprocter... Hi James, Thank you for your further explanation which makes good sense now. --- buddhatrue wrote: > Actually, after I posted that, I thought to myself that it should > have read "May we all be an admirable friend to ourselves and > others." I wanted to emphasize the `being a friend to oneself' > because it is soooooo difficult to find admirable friends in one's > daily life. Sure, we can stay away from drug dealers/users, thieves, > liars, etc., but then we will find that most of our friends can still > lead us astray with petty desires of shopping, entertainment, sexual > lust, etc. It is hard to find a truly admirable friend, as a > householder. .... S: Well, certainly the Buddha encouraged us to be 'islands' and find refuge in the dhamma, rather than relying on others. In the end, whatever we hear, whoever we associate with, it is only the Dhamma which is the refuge. Others are not responsible for our petty desires, for our attachments, for our wrong views. The association is really with 'goodness' or 'badness' at any time. One can mix with robbers with wise attention and have all sorts of evil thoughts whilst associating with wise people. But, of course, we tend to be influenced as you suggest... That's why we seek out wise company. .... > > So, I suggested that we need to be an admirable friend to ourselves > (and others). We need to be strong enough to keep ourselves on the > path when others lead us astray (purposefully or not). And to be an > admirable friend who tells others the proper way to be, even when it > goes against the grain. .... S: Well said. I agree with the proviso, 'who tells others the proper way to be WHEN appropriate, even when it goes against the grain.' ... > This is very, very difficult! But it is the entirety of the holy > life!! .... S: Yes, it is very difficult. The Buddha never said the Path was easy. Wishing you a healthy, happy and wise holdiday season and New Year in Taiwan, James. Metta, Sarah ======== #66470 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Dec 24, 2006 2:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] what can be the right balance sarahprocter... Hi Leo, You always ask the most challenging questions! Hope you saw my other belated response to our thread on 'Art' (which has been running for months now, Bill:-)). --- Leo wrote: > Some time ago I found that there is Buddha foot step somewhere on a > hill in eastern Sri Lanka. .... S: Yes, Adam's Peak or Sri Pada. ... >I guess it is safe to be on a hill, it is > protective from tsunamis. Later I found from talking to south asian > man, that the higher you are in a mountain, the more wind you get. So > you have more risk of Thaifoon and problems because of that. .... S: Different problems, yes! Depends on kamma and other factors too. Of course, the greatest problems anywhere come down to lobha, dosa and moha:-) ... > What do you think would be the right hight and elevation? .... S: The right height to avoid tsunamis and typhoons or the right height to develop wisdom? I have a wealthy friend who is always looking for the best place for her retirement. She tries out different spots, but there's always something wrong with them. Too hot, too cold, too windy, too crowded, too quiet and so on. Whilst we go on looking for 'the right height' or 'the right balance' and think that it's really of any ultimate consequence, we forget all about the Middle Path, the development of the eightfold path right now, regardless of where we are. ***** "Who says it is too hot, too cold, too late, and leaves things undone, the opportunities for good go past such men. "But he who does not regard cold or heat any more than a blade of grass and who does his duties manfully, does not fall away from happiness."(DN 31) ***** Metta, Sarah ====== #66471 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Sun Dec 24, 2006 2:32 am Subject: Scott's translation issues (was: Stephen Batchelor and Buddhadasa Bhikkhu) sarahprocter... Hi Scott, (Nina, Han & all), (Apologies, I'm belatedly picking up on an interesting old post of yours (#64807) which I'd put aside with many others to read when I was feeling better.) Leaving aside the other controversy about Self and self and just looking for now at BB's translation and notes: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > "Saadhu, bhikkhave. Ahampi kho ta.m, bhikkhave, attavaadupaadaana.m > na samanupassaami ya.msa attavaadupaadaana.m upaadiyato na uppajjeya.m > sokapridevadukkhadomanassapaayaasaa." <...> > Bhikkhu Bodhi: > > "Good, Bhikkhus. I too do not see any doctrine of self that would not > arouse sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair in one who clings > to it." > > In Notes to Sutta 22, Majjhima Nikaaya, Bh. Bodhi writes: > > Note 262: > > "Attavaadupaadaana.m upaadiyetha, lit. 'you may cling to that clinging > to a doctrine of self.' On the problem this idiom involves for > translation, see n.176..." (pp. 1210-1211) > > Note 176: > > "The Pali idiom, n'eva kaamupaadaana.m upaadiyati, would have to be > rendered literally as 'he does not cling to the clinging to sense > pleasures,' which may obscure the sense rather than convey it. > Upaadaana in Pali is the object of its own verb form, while 'clinging' > in English is not. At one stage ~Naa.namoli tried to circumvent this > problem by borrowing the word upaadaana's other meaning of 'fuel' and > translating: 'he no longer clings to sensual desires [as fuel for] > clinging.' This, however, also borders on obscurity, and I have > therefore attempted to cut through the difficulty by translating > directly in accordance with the sense rather than in conformity with > the Pali idiom." (p. 1197) .... S: Actually, I like Nanamoli's translation as given in the note. But, I'm interested in the phrase 'attavaadupaadaana' which I've discussed in a lot of detail with Han and others. In brief, atta is the opposite of anatta. When we say 'all dhammas are anatta', we usually translate this as 'all dhammas are not-self'. However, usually we don't take the rupas of the computer or the tree for being self, so I think even this is misleading in a way. Similarly, BB writes "Attavaadupaadaana.m upaadiyetha, lit. 'you may cling to that clinging to a doctrine of self.' However, atta is wider in meaning than 'self'. When we take the rupas for being a computer or tree, for a lasting thing, it is attavaadupaadaana, but it's not self-view (sakkaya-ditthi). You'll have been hearing more on this on the recordings. Also see U.P. under 'Atta-vadupadana & sakkaya-ditthi' if you (or anyone else) has time. I'll be interested to hear further comments. I expect you and the children have lots of snow to play in now....brrr... Old dhamma friends from Vancouver and Victoria are joining us in Bangkok soon, so you'll be hearing Canadian accents soon:-) Metta, Sarah ======== #66472 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Dec 24, 2006 5:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Stressing sila & Cutting off at feeling jonoabb Hi Howard upasaka@... wrote: > Hi, Jon - > > ... > >> Understood. But the same emotion may arise during a dream. Could that >> emotion also be said to have a cognitive basis? >> > > -------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Of course, just as with the rope-snake example. Cognition needn't be > correct. In fact it typically fails in correctness, and dreaming is an > excellent and frequent simile for our unawakened (i.e., unenlightened) state. > --------------------------------------------- > So by 'cognition' here you mean 'consciousness' of any kind (I had assumed you meant 5 sense-door consciousness)? In that case, I don't see the significance of the statement that 'emotion has a cognitive basis'. Does it mean that there are some who see things as being otherwise? >> Just trying to relate to your comment (which, as I recall, was >> attributed to Matt, and is not necessarily your own viewpoint). >> > > -------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Yes, but I do agree with Matt on that point. This, in fact, is why > wisdom liberates us not only cognitively but also affectively, and even merely > correct *intellectual* understanding, as obtained for example from hearing the > Dhamma and thinking it over, is tremendously beneficial affectively as well as > cognitively. This is true. > --------------------------------------------- > You've lost me here, as I'm not familiar with the terminology. Would you mind saying a little about what is meant by wisdom being beneficial 'affectively' and 'cognitively'? Thanks. Jon #66473 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Dec 24, 2006 5:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Stressing sila & Cutting off at feeling jonoabb Hi Matt I think what you say at the end of your post makes sense! Look forward to seeing you and others in a couple of weeks. Thanks for your contribution to the discussion so far. Jon matt roke wrote: > Hi Jon, > > ... > I’m not sure that this makes things anymore clearer, it’s more or less the > same as I have > written before. Maybe we should wait until you come to Bangkok in January to > discuss it > further. > #66474 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Dec 24, 2006 1:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: shoulder bicep surgery and meditation. upasaka_howard Hi, Swee Boon - I do think that discursive thinking of the right sorts can be support for awakening, and that it specifically can serve as a condition for useful states to arise, including calming the mind, encouraging the mind, and motivating proper practice. I think this is true even when Christians think about the lovingkindness teachings of Jesus and the goodness he displayed and when devout Jews think about the Patriarchs and their deeds and of Moses, his life, and his teachings. But at bottom, I think that it is cultivation of the entire noble eightfold path, by such means as guarding the senses, ongoing mindfulness, and cultivation of calm and wisdom along such lines as expressed in the Satipatthana, Anapanasati, and Kayagatasati Suttas that is required. Proper discursive thinking can be supportive of this. With metta, Howard #66475 From: "bjones6513" Date: Sun Dec 24, 2006 6:43 am Subject: Re: Faults of Goenka's Meditation Method bjones6513 Hi James, Thanks for the explanation without the obtrusive animosity. It's much appreciated. Frankly, I know very little about the Goenka retreats except for the two my wife and I attended. I assumed there was more to it other than the body sweeping. I didn't realize that the culmination of his method was merely to see the body as vibrations. Maybe that's why in Ven. Analayo's book on the Satipatthana he states that Goenka's and U Ba Khin's methods of meditation are "mainly expedient means for beginners, who are not yet able to practise such bare awareness at all sense doors." What are the Satipatthana retreats that are mentioned? They say you can attend these after so many 10-day retreats. I assumed they were more in accordance with the Satipatthana sutta, but I know nothing about them. What my wife and I had problems with, even though we felt it deepened our meditative practice and reinforced our comittment to practice meditation, was their rigidity in emphasizing only one practice method. We both assumed that was only a temporary stage until we had practiced a certain length of time using their method. Obviously according to you, our assumptions are wrong. Another problem we had was the fact that my wife, who is an oncology nurse, practices Healing Touch which the hospital where she works allows as an alternative therapy. They were so much against this that at first they would not let her attend until she signed an aggreement to not practice Healing Touch at the retreat, which seemed ridiculous anyway. Then at the end, they told her that she was going to have to abandon the Healing Touch practice altogether if she wanted to continue with the Goenka method. Also, you say vedana does not mean physical sensations, but I find many references to this. Analayo's book, which I'm just finishing, states that it comprises bodily and mental feelings although not emotion. I did read the explanation in B. Bodhi's Manual of Abhidhamma of vedana which agrees with what you say vedana means, mental feelings. One last question, why did you practice this method for 15-years? you must have felt that you benefited in some way otherwise you would not have continued so long. With metta, Bill #66476 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Dec 24, 2006 1:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Stressing sila & Cutting off at feeling upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - > > > > So by 'cognition' here you mean 'consciousness' of any kind (I had > assumed you meant 5 sense-door consciousness)? In that case, I don't > see the significance of the statement that 'emotion has a cognitive > basis'. Does it mean that there are some who see things as being otherwise? ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Cognition pertains to knowing (correctly or incorrectly) in some informational way as opposed to an affective way. Feeling, emoting, craving, hating - none of them is cognitive. Thinking, perceiving, conceiving, misconceiving - they are all cognitive. How we think about things and how we perceive them affects how we react to them emotionally. The affective is strongly based in the cognitive. The influence goes the other way as well, of course, also. In fact, at the most basic level, affective takes the lead: The Buddha said what one feels, one perceives/recognizes. ---------------------------------------------- > > >>Just trying to relate to your comment (which, as I recall, was > >>attributed to Matt, and is not necessarily your own viewpoint). > >> > > > >-------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > Yes, but I do agree with Matt on that point. This, in fact, is why > >wisdom liberates us not only cognitively but also affectively, and even > merely > >correct *intellectual* understanding, as obtained for example from hearing > the > >Dhamma and thinking it over, is tremendously beneficial affectively as well > as > >cognitively. This is true. > >--------------------------------------------- > > > > You've lost me here, as I'm not familiar with the terminology. Would > you mind saying a little about what is meant by wisdom being beneficial > 'affectively' and 'cognitively'? Thanks. --------------------------------------- Howard: Wisdom, a cognitive factor, uproots not only cognitive defilements, but affective ones as well. -------------------------------------- > > Jon > > =================== With metta, Howard #66477 From: "bjones6513" Date: Sun Dec 24, 2006 7:27 am Subject: Re: Faults of Goenka's Meditation Method bjones6513 Hi James, When thinking about it, vedana can only be a mental state although it seems it can be assessed by observing physical sensations. Is that not correct, in your opinion? Metta, Bill > > Also, you say vedana does not mean physical sensations, but I find many > references to this. Analayo's book, which I'm just finishing, states that it > comprises bodily and mental feelings although not emotion. I did read > the explanation in B. Bodhi's Manual of Abhidhamma of vedana which > agrees with what you say vedana means, mental feelings. #66478 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Dec 24, 2006 3:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Faults of Goenka's Meditation Method upasaka_howard Hi, Bill (and James) - In a message dated 12/24/06 10:30:27 AM Eastern Standard Time, Bjones6513@... writes: > Hi James, > When thinking about it, vedana can only be a mental state although it > seems it can be assessed by observing physical sensations. Is that not > correct, in your opinion? > Metta, > Bill > > > >Also, you say vedana does not mean physical sensations, but I find many > >references to this. Analayo's book, which I'm just finishing, states that > it > >comprises bodily and mental feelings although not emotion. I did read > >the explanation in B. Bodhi's Manual of Abhidhamma of vedana which > >agrees with what you say vedana means, mental feelings. > > > ======================= We all, I believe, informally tend to think of feelings of pleasantness, unpleasantness, and neutrality as mental "things" of some sort that are somehow associated with objects of consciousness, most particularly bodily sensations. We think of feelings as passive phenomena that arise and cease on the stage of mind, just as rupas do. But I believe that is an erroneous view. Pleasant sensations are sensations that are felt as pleasant. The sensations are (typically) body-door rupas. Similarly for unpleasant and neutral sensations. Feelings are not passive, mental "things" that float by in the mind. Feelings are mental *activities*. When an object of consciousness such as a body-door sensation arises, a variety of mental operations apply to it, operations such as sa~n~na which notes or recognizes it, attention which highlights it, and vedana which affectively "tastes" it. We do not experience a "thing" that is "the pleasant taste" of the object of consciousness. Instead, we affectively experience the object of consciousness, for example the body-door sensation. That object of consciousness is what is experienced, and in addition to its being merely experientially present, its being "vi~n~nanized", it is also "known" in a variety of other more specific ways, one of which is feeling it as pleasant. With metta, Howard #66479 From: "bjones6513" Date: Sun Dec 24, 2006 8:58 am Subject: Re: Faults of Goenka's Meditation Method bjones6513 --- Hi Howard and James, Payutto in his article on dependent Origination (www.buddhanet.net/cmdsg/coarise.htm) defines vedana as feelings of pleasure, pain and indifference arising from impingement on eye, ear, nose, tongue, body and mind. The feelings are considered to be the appreciation of qualities of sense contacts, be they comfort, discomfort or indifference. I think this concurs with your statement that vendana affectively tastes the object of consciousness. Metta, Bill #66480 From: "bjones6513" Date: Sun Dec 24, 2006 9:20 am Subject: Re: Faults of Goenka's Meditation Method bjones6513 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "bjones6513" wrote: > > --- Hi Howard and James, > I think the Vimuttimagga sums up every possible aspect of feeling. Q. What is the aggregate of feeling? A. From the point of characteristic, feeling is of one kind, as being experienced by the mind only. From the point of sense-organ, it is of two kinds thus: bodily and mental. From the point of intrinsic nature, it is of three kinds: blissful feeling, painful feeling, and feeling that is neither blissful or painful. From the point of law, it is four kinds, meritorious, demeritorious, retributive and objective. From the point of faculty , there are five kinds, namely, pleasure-faculty, pain-faculty, joy-faculty, grief-faculty, indifference-faculty. From the point of black and white, it is of six kinds, namely, cankerous feeling of pleasure, non- cankerous feeling of pleasure, cankerous feeling of pain, non-cankerous feeling of pain, cankerous feeling of neither pain nor pleasure, non- cankerous feeling of neither pain nor pleasure. From the point of method, it is of seven kinds, feeling born of eye-contact, of ear-contact, of nose- contact, of tongue-contact, of body-contact, contact of mind-element, contact of mind-consciousness. Fully one hundred and eight kinds of feeling are fulfilled. six states of feeling are aroused from craving, six from renunciation, six from grief-craving, six from grief renunciation, six from equanimity-renunciation. six times six are thirty-six and in the three divisions of time, these thirty-six are increased three times. This is called the aggregate of feeling. Metta, Bill > > > > #66481 From: "bjones6513" Date: Sun Dec 24, 2006 9:33 am Subject: Re: Pali dictionary bjones6513 Hi Jon, I realize it's a difficult task to find a teacher with the right balance of meditative practice and study of the Tipitaka. I find that many teachers in that tradition emphasize meditation more than study which at this point is what I'm looking for. That will help balance my practice, which presently is more study than meditation practice. My experience from past stays at temples in Thailand is that one is mainly on their own with a brief period each day for questions. If you can recommend someone, please let me know. It doesn't necessarily have to be in the Forest tradition. Metta, Bill #66482 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 24, 2006 10:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] shoulder bicep surgery and meditation. nilovg Hi Howard, you did not understand my intention. I just thought this: You did not understand what I meant. No time now for writing or reading posts, I have to cook a dinner for seven and lots of work to finish. I come back later, Nina. Op 23-dec-2006, om 20:43 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > > I like to talk with you about meditation, but not in a debate way! > > ------------------------------------- > Howard: > I don't quite understand that. Does it mean we must agree or that we > hide our disagreements? I have no interest in scoring points or > "winning", if > that is what you have in mind. #66483 From: Dhammanando Bhikkhu Date: Sun Dec 24, 2006 6:05 pm Subject: Re: permission from parents dhammanando_... Hi JC, > How does this all translate to not being able to play games like > chess, checkers, billiards, etc.? As I said in my first reply, the commentaries take "visuukadassana" as implying all the various frivolities and recreations given in the Majjhimasiila section of the Brahmajaala Sutta (see the passage below). It is similar to the way in which "musaavaada" in some Sutta passages is understood by the commentaries as indicating not only false speech, but also divisive, harsh and frivolous speech. The 7th and 8th of the eight precepts are essentially a statement in brief of what the Brahmajaala Sutta's Majjhimasiila section states at length. So here chess and chequers would be included in "games on boards with eight, or with ten, rows of squares", and billiards would be included in "games with balls" -- "Whereas some recluses and Brahmans, while living on food provided by the faithful, continue addicted to visiting shows; that is to say, (1) Nautch dances. (2) Singing of songs. (3) Instrumental music. (4) Shows at fairs. (5) Ballad recitations. (6) Hand music. (7) The chanting of bards. (8) Tam-tam playing. (9) Fairy scenes. (10) Acrobatic feats by ca.n.daalas. (11) Combats of elephants, horses, buffaloes, bulls, goats, rams, cocks, and quails. (12) Bouts at quarter-staff, boxing, wrestling. (13-16) Sham-fights, roll-calls, manoeuvres, reviews. Gotama the recluse holds aloof from visiting such shows." "Whereas some recluses and Brahmans, while living on food provided by the faithful, continue addicted to games and recreations; that is to say, (1) Games on boards with eight, or with ten, rows of squares. (2) The same games played by imagining such boards in the air. (3) Keeping going over diagrams drawn on the ground so that one steps only where one ought to go. (4) Either removing the pieces or men from a heap with one's nail, or putting them into a heap, in each case without shaking it, He who shakes the heap, loses. (5) Throwing dice. (6) Hitting a short stick with a long one. (7) Dipping the hand with the fingers stretched out in lac, or red dye, or flour-water, and striking the wet hand on the ground or on a wall, calling out 'What shall it be?' and showing the form required - elephants, horses, &c. (8) Games with balls. (9) Blowing through toy pipes made of leaves. (10) Ploughing with toy ploughs. (11) Turning summersaults. (12) Playing with toy windmills made of palm-leaves. (13) Playing with toy measures made of palm-leaves. (14, 15) Playing with toy carts or toy bows. (16) Guessing at letters traced in the air, or on a playfellow's back. (17) Guessing the playfellow's thoughts. (18) Mimicry of deformities. Gotama the recluse holds aloof from such games and recreations." "Whereas some recluses and Brahmans, while living on food provided by the faithful, continue addicted to the use of high and large couches; that is to say, (1) Moveable settees, high, and six feet long. (2) Divans with animal figures carved on the supports. (3) Goats' hair coverlets with very long fleece. (4) Patchwork counterpanes of many colours. (5) White blankets. (6) Woollen coverlets embroidered with flowers. (7) Quilts stuffed with cotton wool. (8) Coverlets embroidered with figures of lions, tigers, &c. (9) Rugs with fur on both sides. (10) Rugs with fur on one side. (11) Coverlets embroidered with gems. (12) Silk coverlets. (13) Carpets large enough for sixteen dancers. (14-16) Elephant, horse, and chariot rugs. (17) Rugs of antelope skins sewn together. (18) Rugs of skins of the plantain antelope. (19) Carpets with awnings above them. (20) Sofas with red pillows for the head and feet. Gotama the recluse holds aloof from the use of high and wide couches." "Whereas some recluses and Brahmans, while living on food provided by the faithful, continue addicted to the use of means for adorning and beautifying themselves; that is to say, rubbing in scented powders on one's body, shampooing it, and bathing it. Patting the limbs with clubs after the manner of wrestlers. The use of mirrors, eye-ointments, garlands, rouge, cosmetics, bracelets, necklaces, walking-sticks, reed cases for drugs, rapiers, sunshades, embroidered slippers, turbans, diadems, whisks of the yak's tail, and long-fringed white robes. Gotama the recluse holds aloof from such means of adorning and beautifying the person." (Rhys Davids trans.) Best wishes, Dhammanando #66484 From: Dhammanando Bhikkhu Date: Sun Dec 24, 2006 6:05 pm Subject: Re: Suttas dhammanando_... Hi JC, > Im having trouble finding a sutta that tells us to honor devas and > they would help us as a mother their own child. I don't think there is any Pali Sutta that says that. The simile of a mother and her child is normally used in connection with developing mettaa for all beings or eating almsfood without greed and delight (like a starving mother forced to eat her own child). The only devas that merit being honoured by humans (if one should happen to meet one) are those like Sakka who are ariyan disciples. On the other hand, if one has gone for refuge there are certain devas (yakkhas, naagas etc.) to whom one may appeal for help if attacked by any kind of malevolent non-human beings. These beings were tamed by the Buddha, some are ariyans, and all are bound by oath to protect us if we call upon them. The names of forty-one of them are given in the Aa.taanaa.tiya Sutta (DN. 32): Inda, Soma, Varu.na, Bhaaradvaaja, Pajaapati, Candana, Kaamase.t.tha, Kinnugha.n.du, Nigha.n.du, Panaada, Opama~n~na, Devasuuta, Maatali, the gandhabba Cittasena, Na.la, Raajaa, Janesabha, Saataagira, Hemavata, Pu.n.naka, Karatiya, Gu.la, Sivaka, Mucalinda the king of the naagas, Vessaamitta, Yugandhara, Gopaala, Supparodha, Hiri, Netti, Mandiya, Pa~ncaalaca.n.da, Aa.lavaka the yakkha, Pajjunna, Sumana, Sumukha, Dadhimukha, Ma.ni, Maa.nivara, Diigha, and Seriisaka. > And is there a sutta that also tells us to do the same to honor > brahmas (not brahmans) and they would help us? I don't know of one, but very much doubt it. The Brahmas remain mostly aloof and apart from the human world, with contact and interaction between the two occurring only when the Buddha or some master of jhaana is able to visit the Brahma worlds, or on certain special occasions in the final life of a Bodhisatta. For example, when a Bodhisatta goes forth into the homeless life he will be presented with robes and bowl by an anaagaamin Brahma from the Pure Abodes, after his awakening he will be requested to teach by the Brahma Sahampati, and after he has set the Wheel of Dhamma in motion, the Brahmas will join in with the applause (though it seems they don't themselves witness this event and only get to know about it through hearing the noise made by the Paranimittavasavatti devas). > Also, does the Tipitaka state that all animals can remember their > former life as devas and brahmas do? In the Jaataka stories lots of animals are depicted as being able to recall their former life, but I've not come across any statement that this is always the case. > And am I right that all devas and brahmas can remember their former > life? The devas depicted in the Vimaanavatthu, the Jaatakas, the Rohitassa Sutta etc. can at least recall the past life kamma that brought them to their present state, but as with animals I don't know if this is an invariable characteristic shared by all of them. In the case of Brahmas, there are certainly some who don't recall their former life. For example, the Impercipient Brahmas can't even think, let alone remember anything. Then there are those Abhassara Brahmas who deludedly imagine themselves to be eternal creator gods, presumably being unaware that they have lived and died before. Best wishes, Dhammanando #66485 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Dec 24, 2006 3:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] shoulder bicep surgery and meditation. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 12/24/06 1:13:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > you did not understand my intention. I just thought this: talk to Howard about this subject, because he has no interest in > scoring points. >You did not understand what I meant. ------------------------------------------- Howard: Ahhh! Wonderful! Yes, I DID misunderstand you, and I'm so pleased that I was mistaken! :-) --------------------------------------------- > No time now for writing or reading posts, I have to cook a dinner for > seven and lots of work to finish. I come back later, ----------------------------------------------- Howard: I hope it was a lovely meal. A Christmas meal for friends and/or relatives? ----------------------------------------------- > Nina. > ======================== With metta, Howard #66486 From: Dhammanando Bhikkhu Date: Sun Dec 24, 2006 8:35 pm Subject: Re: processes of cittas dhammanando_... Hi Scott, > Alas, these volumes (thanks for the titles) are not in the collections > at the University of Alberta libraries. I actually gave a wrong title for one of them: it should be "Fruits (not "roots") of the Ascetic Life". > When you have a moment, if you don't mind, I'd appreciate a bit on the > particular words in question as cited (you know, in the interest of > science) - no rush. I am presently typing up a lengthy extract about Makkhali from Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation. It's for a reply to a post on E-sangha, but I can post the passage here too. Best wishes, Dhammanando #66487 From: "Leo" Date: Sun Dec 24, 2006 8:46 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] what can be the right balance leoaive Hi One one hand Buddha said that his teaching is without dead ends. On other if there is Buddha foot step, then it is for something, not just hill decoration. I was meditating on that and still meditating. I really with to find out the elevation of that foot step. Do you have any idea about where can I find it. Thanks With Metta Leo #66488 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Dec 24, 2006 9:51 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] what can be the right balance jonoabb Hi Leo Leo wrote: > Hi > > One one hand Buddha said that his teaching is without dead ends. On > other if there is Buddha foot step, then it is for something, not just > hill decoration. I was meditating on that and still meditating. I > really with to find out the elevation of that foot step. Do you have > any idea about where can I find it. > About 7500 feet. Here's a whole website about it: http://sripada.org/ As a matter of interest, what do you see as being the significance of this? Jon #66489 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Dec 24, 2006 10:00 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: If not pakatupanissaya, then what else? jonoabb Hi Howard (and Larry) upasaka@... wrote: > Hi, Larry (and Rob) - > > > BTW, a translation that I saw of the Upanisa Sutta the following > summary by the translator: > __________ > The twelve stages of transcendent dependent origination consist of: > >> (1) suffering which gives rise to >> (2) faith which gives rise to >> (3) gladness (or joy) which gives rise to >> (4) rapture which gives rise to >> (5) tranquility which gives rise to >> (6) happiness which gives rise to >> (7) concentration which gives rise to >> (8) the knowledge and vision of things as they really are which gives rise >> to >> (9) revulsion (or disenchantment) which gives rise to >> (10) dispassion which gives rise to >> (11) liberation (or emancipation) which gives rise to >> (12) the knowledge of the destruction of the defilements. >> > ------------------------ > The proximate cause given there for concentration is happiness. Would > the Pali be 'sukha' rather than 'piti', the latter which I think of as > signifying rapture, a state that involves excitement. Bhikkhu Bodhi, the same as the > above site, gives "happiness" as the English rendering, but Thanissaro Bhikkhu > gives "pleasure". > It seems to be 'sukha': Faith (saddha) Joy (pamojja) Rapture (piti) Tranquillity (passaddhi) Happiness (sukha) Concentration (samadhi) Knowledge and vision of things as they are (yathabhuta�anadassana) Disenchantment (nibbida) Dispassion (viraga) Emancipation (vimutti) Knowledge of destruction of the cankers (asavakkhaye �ana) > Also, Bhikkhu Bodhi speaks of "supportive cause", > Thanissaro Bhikkhu "prerequisite", and the site from which I quoted the summary above > gave "proximate cause". So, translations seem to run the gamut. > If I recall correctly, Bhikkhu Bodhi gives slightly different translations in different writings of his. See: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/wheel277.html and his translation of the sutta in CDB (the latter being the later work). See also: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/57380 and other messages in that thread Jon #66490 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Mon Dec 25, 2006 2:27 am Subject: Perspectives Re: Stressing sila... sarahprocter... Dear Scott, As I mentioned to someone yesterday, I got a little behind with my reading of longer posts. I'd just like to say that I read your post #65593 more carefully (which led to some controversy, I recall)and I think it's very beautiful and deep. Well worth a careful reading for anyone who browsed through before. Here is just one quote, but really it needs to be read in context of the full post: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > R: "But we foolish ones cannot see this, and so we imagine there is > really is a world populated with other beings who we feel varying > degress of affection/dislike/equanimity for." > > In the Dhammasa"nga.ni list there appear some of the more gentle or > apparently desirable and possibly laudable qualities: > > compliance > intimacy > fondness > affection > connexion > hoping for > wish > entreating > > One need not look too hard to see these every day. And with others, > and I find this most with the young others who share my home, these > are very much aspects of what one could mistakenly call "compassion" > when caring for them. Do I not love them? Hug them? Tuck them in? > Want to please them? Buy them gifts? Attempt to satisfy their needs? ..... S: I think there were some misunderstandings, but I fully appreciated your whole post. A development of understanding certainly doesn't mean any less care and kindness for your children as you spelled out (if I recall). Quite the contrary in fact! I just had a brief sharing of Xmas greetings with Phil which reminded me of this theme. He was thanking us for a c.d. and I enquired after his mother. He repeated (as he's said before on-list) that with regard to his mother's condition, 'Listening to Acharn Sujin really helped there. I still think the "there is no nina" approach is spot on for helping with this sort of thing - the cold shower.' (Of course, there's much he also disagrees with that she and some of us say, as he's stressed too:-)). Metta, Sarah ======== #66491 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Dec 25, 2006 3:10 am Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 620- Wholesome Deeds(q) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) =============================================== Wholesome Deeds contd Another one of the bases of meritorious deeds is listening to Dhamma and this is included in mental development. When we listen to the Dhamma and study it we learn what is kusala and what akusala, we learn about kamma and vipåka and the way how to develop kusala. Development of calm and of insight starts with listening; there could not be any mental development if one does not know how to apply oneself to it. Listening to the Dhamma or reading the scriptures and considering what we learnt are conditions for the arising of mindfulness of nåma and rúpa. Although we know that listening to the Dhamma and studying it is beneficial we may be inclined to put it off. We believe that we have too many duties to perform or we are distracted by the enjoyment of pleasant objects. When we really see the usefulness of the study of the Dhamma we can accumulate the inclination to listen to the Dhamma or to read the scriptures. Reading even a few lines at a time can be most beneficial. ***** Wholesome Deeds to be contd Metta, Sarah ====== #66492 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Dec 25, 2006 4:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] elements of experience / was Re: Gratitude vs kamma-vipaka sarahprocter... Hi Ken H (and all sharp eyes), --- ken_aitch wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > Thanks for the further explanations. Now that my eyes are better, this > thread is much easier to read - in more ways than one. .... S: Funny thing, I had a really itchy, weepy eye which also made it a bit difficult to read posts at the same time. It was related to the shingles and has cleared up now, so I'm also reading the thread more easily:-). .... >However, I am > still not sure why you brought in the bit about 'blind from > conception' (as distinct from blind later in life). In either case > there are only five vatthus that can arise and fall away, are there > not? The only difference is a matter of hetus, which isn't really > relevant to this discussion - unless I am missing something. .... S: It may have been a red herring, I hardly remember now. What I wrote was this: >S: As we know, in the sensuous realm, all six bases (vatthus) arise and fall away except for those blind or deaf from conception. (In the rupa-brahma realm, there are no bases for smelling, tasting and body-consciousness, these said to be coarser than those bases for seeing and hearing. I've read that the physical components of the organs exist there, but not the sensitivity to serve as vatthus.) >2. So, in the 'vision-impaired', the eye-base is there, but the eye-sensitivity or vatthu which has to act as prenascence and support condition for seeing consciousness throughout life may be weakened, thus affecting the nature of the consciousness.....> ..... S: (6 bases includes heart-base here too). In the first case of the individual born with no hetus and blind from birth, there is no eye-sense (cakkhupasada rupa) to be the base (vatthu) for seeing, so this vatthu doesn't arise and fall away. For the rest of us, it does. A minor detail, I think only.... > --------------------- > S: Meanwhile, take good care of your eyes -- we need them in good > shape here for all the controversies!! > ---------------------- > > Ha ha! Nothing I can say can be in the least bit controversial when > compared to the Dhamma. The Dhamma is actually telling us that seeing > is only seeing - not your seeing, my seeing, squirrel seeing, human > seeing, . . . just seeing. Just a fleeting conditioned dhamma gone in > the same moment it appears! How can I compete with that? :-) .... S: Ah, I noticed Howard was keeping a close eye on your squirrel controversies. I think you're right, we can only give a very poor imitation of the Buddha's teaching of anatta. Metta, Sarah p.s A Merry Xmas to Sue too and a dhamma-ful and surf-ful new year to you both! ======= #66493 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Dec 25, 2006 4:07 am Subject: Xmas greetings sarahprocter... Hi All, Just a brief note to wish everyone a Merry Xmas, joyful holiday season, lots of wisdom and all that's 'good' in the coming year. We're also coming to the end of the 7th year of DSG, so may we take this chance as well to thank everyone for their active or passive participation to date. We look forward to more discussion and association with you all in future. As James reminded us recently, "Admirable friendship, admirable companionship, admirable camaraderie is actually the whole of the holy life.." May we all learn to see what is truly admirable in life and share it with each other. Metta, Sarah (& Jon) ============ #66494 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Dec 25, 2006 5:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Please Help me with Vipassana! sarahprocter... Hi Bill & Howard, --- bjones6513 wrote: > ---Hi Sarah, > Just a question about the following entry. I'm not sure what kā, > etc means. Can you explain? .... S: Err... it doesn't mean much to me either:-). I think someone (Howard?) quoted from the Nyantiloka dictionary and the diacritical symbols didn't come out correctly (as they often don't on different computers). Remember, the five kinds of feeling were given, starting with 1) bodily agreeable feeling (kaayikaa sukhaa-vedanaa). Here, simply 'kaayikaa' refers to 'bodily' and so on. As Howard and I have been stressing, kaayikaa is used to differentiate the pleasant feelings accompanying body consciousness from the pleasant feelings accompanying experiences through the mind-door, such as thinking about tangible objects with pleasant feeling. ..... > I haven't been able to find the recordings. Where are they again? > thanks. .... http://www.dhammastudygroup.org/ 1. Scroll down past all the numbers which refer to the entire DSG archives 2. When you get to the audio section, select ones you wish to listen to such as the first set (Erik Series) or the most recently edited set (Bangkok, Feb 2006). Let us know how you get on. Howard, while you are still somewhat 'incapacitated', I think you would find it particularly interesting to listen to the first track at least of the Bangkok, Feb 2006 set. I'd be very glad to hear you comments if you feel like giving it half an hour or so. Meanwhile, best wishes to you both and your families at this time. Howard, hope the arm's doing OK. A good test of patience:-). Metta, Sarah ====== #66495 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Dec 25, 2006 4:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: paticcasamuppada sarahprocter... Dear Fabian, You were asking about Abhidhamma commentaries --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: , > There are some Pali Text Editions; > to the Dhammasangani: the Co: Expositor (Atthasalini) > to Vibhanga, Book of Analysis, the Dispeller of Delusion > (sammohavinodani.) > to Puggalapa~n~nnatti: The Debates Co. .... S: The latter should be the translation of Kathaavatthuppakara.na A.t.thakathaa, 'The Debates Commentary'. This is the commentary to the Kathaavatthu. I also highly recommend the PTS translation of the Abhidhammatthavibhaavinii, the commentary to the Abhidhammatthasa'ngaha (also inc.). The title is 'Summary of the Topics of Abhidhamma' and 'Exposition of the Topics of Abhidhamma'. Other commentaries are not available, but both Nina and I often recommend U Narada's 'Guide to Conditional Relations' (also PTS) which is like a detailed introduction to the Patthana. If you find other sources of commentaries, pls let us know. As you say, they are limited. You mentioned there were some points your group wished to check. I'd be interested to know what kind of points these are. Pls share anything your are discussing/researching so that we can all benefit. Metta, Sarah p.s If anyone is considering making purchases from PTS, it is definitely advisable to get a membership in order to get the discount and free book annually. ========= #66496 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Dec 25, 2006 4:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 613- Wholesome Deeds(j) sarahprocter... Hi Melek & James, --- buddhatrue wrote: > Oh, sorry for the misunderstanding. BTW, I like the picture you put in > the members folder (beautiful background), but which one are you? ... S: Yes, thank you for sending your nice pic from Istanbul. James, I assume Melek is the man in the centre as I know another guy called Melek:-). Who are the ladies with you, melek? You kindly gave Nitesh a link to vri.dhamma.org. I'm interested to know what you read there in particular. Btw, James, many thx for giving the steps for adding photos. Very helpful. I'll keep it for reference for those who ask. Bill, hope you have time to look out that pic. Anyone else too....in the Xmas spirit after all:-) Metta, Sarah ======= #66497 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Dec 25, 2006 6:18 am Subject: Re: Faults of Goenka's Meditation Method buddhatrue Hi Bill, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "bjones6513" wrote: > > Hi James, > Thanks for the explanation without the obtrusive animosity. James: Without the obtrusive animosity?!! This group is about as boring as dry toast without the occassional obtrusive animosity! ;-)) > One last question, why did you practice this method for 15-years? you > must have felt that you benefited in some way otherwise you would not > have continued so long. James: As I wrote, there are many benefits to Goenka's method, but there is usually the encountering of a dead-end as one progresses. In my case, I progressed to the point where I couldn't continue the meditation without feeling extreme panic, fear, and depression/hopelessness*. These are some of the stages of "vipassana meditation" which no one should have to experience. > With metta, > Bill Metta, James ps. Bill, you should trim your posts. :-) No one needed to re-read my entire diatribe about Goenka again! ;-)) *6. Awareness of Fearfulness When that knowledge of dissolution is mature, there will gradually arise, just by seeing the dissolution of all object-and-subject- formations, awareness of fearfulness37 and other (higher) knowledges, together with their respective aspects of fear, and so on.38 Having seen how the dissolution of two things — that is, any object noticed and the insight-thought engaged in noticing it — takes place moment by moment, the meditator also understands by inference that in the past, too, every conditioned thing (formation) has broken up in the same way, that just so it will break up also in the future, and that at the present it breaks up, too. And just at the time of noticing any formations that are evident, these formations will appear to him in their aspect of fearfulness. Therefore, during the very act of noticing, the meditator will also come to understand: "These formations are indeed fearful." Such understanding of their fearfulness is called "knowledge of the awareness of fearfulness"; it has also the name "knowledge of fear." At that time, his mind itself is gripped by fear and seems helpless. 7. Knowledge of Misery When he has realized the fearfulness (of the formations) through the knowledge of fear, and keeps on noticing continuously, then the "knowledge of misery" will arise in him before long. When it has arisen, all formations everywhere — whether among the objects noticed, or among the states of consciousness engaged in noticing, or in any kind of life or existence that is brought to mind — will appear insipid, without a vitalizing factor,39 and unsatisfying. So he sees, at that time, only suffering, only unsatisfactoriness, only misery. Therefore this state is called "knowledge of misery." 8. Knowledge of Disgust Seeing thus the misery in conditioned things (formations), his mind finds no delight in those miserable things but is entirely disgusted with them. At times, his mind becomes, as it were, discontented and listless. Even so he does not give up the practice of insight, but spends his time continuously engaging in it. He therefore should know that this state of mind is not dissatisfaction with meditation, but is precisely the "knowledge of disgust" that has the aspect of being disgusted with the formations. Even if he directs his thought to the happiest sort of life and existence, or to the most pleasant and desirable objects, his mind will not take delight in them, will find no satisfaction in them. On the contrary, his mind will incline and lean and tend only towards Nibbana. Therefore the following thought will arise in him between moments of noticing: "The ceasing of all formations that are dissolving from moment to moment — that alone is happiness." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/mahasi/progress.html#ch6.6 #66498 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Dec 25, 2006 6:32 am Subject: Re: Faults of Goenka's Meditation Method buddhatrue Hi Bill, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "bjones6513" wrote: > > Hi James, > When thinking about it, vedana can only be a mental state although it > seems it can be assessed by observing physical sensations. Is that not > correct, in your opinion? James: No, that is not correct in my opinion. Vedana (feelings) arise as the result of every form of clinging consciousness: eye, ear, nose, mouth, body, and mind. The grave falshood that Goenka teaches is that mental states and mental objects (as well as eye, ear, nose, and mouth consciousness) can be known by observing bodily sensations alone. Anyone who reads the words of the Buddha should know better :-(. (Unfortunately, I never read the direct words of the Buddha until I joined this group, so I was duped like so many others.) > Metta, > Bill Metta, James #66499 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Dec 25, 2006 6:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 613- Wholesome Deeds(j) buddhatrue Hi Sarah and Melek, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Melek & James, > > --- buddhatrue wrote: > > Oh, sorry for the misunderstanding. BTW, I like the picture you put in > > the members folder (beautiful background), but which one are you? > ... > S: Yes, thank you for sending your nice pic from Istanbul. James, I assume > Melek is the man in the centre as I know another guy called Melek:- ). Oh, sorry, my mistake. I couldn't tell if 'Melek' was a man's or woman's name. But it is a very cool name nonetheless! :-)) Metta, James #66500 From: "nidive" Date: Mon Dec 25, 2006 8:20 am Subject: Comprehending the Breath as Dukkha nidive Hi All, In-&-out breaths should be comprehended as dukkha. They are bodily fabrications. They are things tied up with this very crumbling body. Remaining focused on in-&-out breaths, one should comprehend the origination of in-&-out breaths and the cessation of in-&-out breaths. Hence, one comprehends Dependent Origination via in-&-out breaths. In anyone who breathes, one is always afflicted with the disease called hunger. In anyone who breathes, there is always a constant need to search for food. In anyone who breathes, illnesses and aging follow like a shadow. In anyone who breathes, death is a certainty. Truly, breathing is suffering, yet few see it as such. And not seeing it as such, one breathes on life after life in samsara. Inconstant and compounded indeed are all in-&-out breaths. Their complete stilling is Supreme Bliss. ------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.044.than.html "But what are bodily fabrications? ... "In-&-out breaths are bodily fabrications. ... "But why are in-&-out breaths bodily fabrications? ... "In-&-out breaths are bodily; these are things tied up with the body. That's why in-&-out breaths are bodily fabrications. ... ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.009.than.html "There would. When a disciple of the noble ones discerns fabrication, the origination of fabrication, the cessation of fabrication, and the way of practice leading to the cessation of fabrication, then he is a person of right view... who has arrived at this true Dhamma. "And what is fabrication? What is the origination of fabrication? What is the cessation of fabrication? What is the way of practice leading to the cessation of fabrication? "There are these three fabrications: bodily fabrication, verbal fabrication, mental fabrication. These are called fabrication. "From the origination of ignorance comes the origination of fabrication. From the cessation of ignorance comes the cessation of fabrication. And the way of practice leading to the cessation of fabrication is just this very noble eightfold path: right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. "Now, when a disciple of the noble ones discerns fabrication, the origination of fabrication, the cessation of fabrication, and the way of practice leading to the cessation of fabrication in this way, when — having entirely abandoned passion-obsession, having abolished aversion-obsession, having uprooted the view-&-conceit obsession 'I am'; having abandoned ignorance & given rise to clear knowing — he has put an end to suffering & stress right in the here-&-now, it is to this extent, too, that a disciple of the noble ones is a person of right view... who has arrived at this true Dhamma." ------------------------------------------------------------------- Swee Boon #66501 From: "bjones6513" Date: Mon Dec 25, 2006 8:23 am Subject: Re: Faults of Goenka's Meditation Method bjones6513 Hi James, Thanks for your post. It's nice to know you have a sense of humor. I'll leave it up to you to "butter the toast." Metta, Bill P.S. I thought I had trimmed the post. Maybe I was thinking about the Christmas tree instead. > > James: Without the obtrusive animosity?!! This group is about as > boring as dry toast without the occassional obtrusive animosity! ;-)) > > #66502 From: "bjones6513" Date: Mon Dec 25, 2006 8:37 am Subject: Re: Faults of Goenka's Meditation Method bjones6513 ---Hi James, I can agree with vedana arising as the result of every form of clinging, but where does vedana arise if not in the mind? Metta, Bill > > James: No, that is not correct in my opinion. Vedana (feelings) > arise as the result of every form of clinging consciousness: eye, > ear, nose, mouth, body, and mind. > #66503 From: "bjones6513" Date: Mon Dec 25, 2006 9:13 am Subject: Re: Cetasikas' study corner 613- Wholesome Deeds(j) bjones6513 Hi Sarah, I'll get a photo after the holidays. Metta, Bill #66504 From: melek cilingir Date: Mon Dec 25, 2006 7:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 613- Wholesome Deeds(j) melekcilingir hi sarah and james, :) i really dont have time to write now, but i feel i must clear something. yes i am the one in the center, but i am not a man. i have written a short description, but it is not seen i guess. the other two are my nieces (one is 12, the other is 15) my name is the turkish version of an arabic name which means angel. they suggest me to change my name in india, because it is so similar to a male indian name there :) many thanks for the kind xmast greetings sarah (and jon) all the best melek #66505 From: "Leo" Date: Mon Dec 25, 2006 12:22 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] what can be the right balance leoaive Hi Thank you for that website. I was loking at that and I can not find about Eastern Sri Lanka. Where is that? If you know please let me know. Leo #66507 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Dec 25, 2006 12:44 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: If not pakatupanissaya, then what else? upasaka_howard Hi, Jon (and Larry) - jonabbott@... writes: > It seems to be 'sukha': ====================== Thanks, Jon! :-) With metta, Howard #66508 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Dec 25, 2006 12:56 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Please Help me with Vipassana! upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and Bill) - In a message dated 12/25/06 8:06:09 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > Howard, while you are still somewhat 'incapacitated', I think you would > find it particularly interesting to listen to the first track at least of > the Bangkok, Feb 2006 set. I'd be very glad to hear you comments if you > feel like giving it half an hour or so. -------------------------------------- Howard: Thanks I'll give a listen! :-) ------------------------------------- > > Meanwhile, best wishes to you both and your families at this time. Howard, > hope the arm's doing OK. A good test of patience:-). ------------------------------------ Howard: It's still a bit troublesome, but overall much better, Thanks! :-) I have confidence that with some physical therapy it'll improve even to the point of getting back to tennis. Thanks for the good wishes Sarah. May your difficulties end with this final week of 2006 or at least very soon after! ------------------------------------ > > Metta, > > Sarah > =================== With metta, Howard #66509 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Dec 25, 2006 1:06 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 613- Wholesome Deeds(j) upasaka_howard Hi, James - I don't know Melek's nationality, but the Hebrew 'melekh' (the "kh" sound is like the German "ch" in "ach") means "king", which would make it a really neat name. :-) With metta, Howard #66510 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Dec 25, 2006 1:17 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Comprehending the Breath as Dukkha upasaka_howard Hi, Swee Boon - In a message dated 12/25/06 11:26:01 AM Eastern Standard Time, nidive@... writes: > Hi All, > > In-&-out breaths should be comprehended as dukkha. They are bodily > fabrications. They are things tied up with this very crumbling body. > ====================== The dukkha of breath may be seen in multiple ways. One is the following: Under normal conditions (when breathing is not painful due to sickness), the in-breath is pleasant but unsatisfactory because self-limiting in duration. The out-breath is also pleasant until, again of necessity, it terminates, and then in only moments, the lack of breath is painful and resisted, and a repetition of the cycle occurs. If we don't look carefully at this matter, we miss the unsatisfactoriness, but careful examination reveals it. With metta, Howard #66511 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Dec 25, 2006 6:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: If not pakatupanissaya, then what else? lbidd2 Hi Howard, Regarding the translation of piiti Nyanatiloka's "Buddhist Dictionary" says this: "píti: rapture, enthusiasm (rendered also by joy, happiness); interest it is one of the mental factors or concomitants (cetasika) and belongs to the group of mental formations (sankhára-kkhandha). As, in sutta texts, it is often linked in a compound word, with 'gladness' (pámojja) or 'happiness' (sukha). Some Western translations have wrongly taken it as a synonym of these two terms. Píti, however, is not a feeling or a sensation, and hence does not belong to the feeling-group (vedaná-kkhandha), but may be described psychologically as 'joyful interest'. As such it may be associated with wholesome as well as with unwholesome and neutral states of consciousness. "A high degree of rapture is characteristic of certain stages in meditative concentration, in insight practice (vipassaná) as well as in the first two absorptions (jhána, q.v.). In the latter it appears as one of the factors of absorption (jhánanga; s. jhána) and is strongest in the 2nd absorption. Five degrees of intensity in meditative rapture are described in Vis.M. IV. 94ff. It is one of the factors of enlightenment (bojjhanga, q.v.)." L: Vism. and CMA also list it as the proximate cause of concentration or one-pointedness. Here is a possible related psychological factor: From Wikipedia: "Flow is the mental state of operation in which the person is fully immersed in what he or she is doing, characterized by a feeling of energized focus, full involvement, and success in the process of the activity. Proposed by psychologist Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi, the concept has been widely referenced across a variety of fields." L: Joseph Campbell, the great expounder of the psychology of myths and symbols, was always giving the advice, "follow your bliss". I think this is pretty much the same thing as piti. What I had in mind is differences of opinion regarding bhavana (practice). Maybe it's a matter of where the piti is. Larry #66512 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Dec 25, 2006 6:53 pm Subject: Re: Faults of Goenka's Meditation Method buddhatrue Hi Bill, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "bjones6513" wrote: > > ---Hi James, > I can agree with vedana arising as the result of every form of > clinging, but where does vedana arise if not in the mind? > Metta, Bill I didn't mention anything about where vedana arises. From my understanding it does arise in the mind (but don't ask me the physical location of 'the mind'- I don't know. ;-)) Metta, James #66513 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Dec 25, 2006 7:12 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: If not pakatupanissaya... lbidd2 Hi Rob, Regarding your question why so little has been written about natural decisive support condition, here are a few thoughts: First, in re-reading the basic definitions I think I mis-spoke in implying that natural decisive support condition is all about accumulations. It is actually closer to "natural law" (I forgot the pali for this). Feeling quite naturally conditions desire because that is the nature of the two, even for a new born baby who has very few accumulations. "Accumulation" here is different from accumulations of kamma which eventually produce kamma result. Desire isn't a kamma result. "Accumulation" in the sense I was using it is the repetition of kamma, and repetition _naturally_ conditions more repetition. But the basic relationship between feeling and desire is primary. Perhaps one reason very little is written about this condition is because the analysis of "what makes this 'natural'?" ends up being very speculative. "Nature" tends to be even more slippery than "dhamma". But if you want to take this on and write a book, go for it! Even if you are wrong it will quite naturally condition a closer look. Larry #66514 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Mon Dec 25, 2006 9:03 pm Subject: Re: merry christmas from phil ken_aitch Hi Sarah, Thanks for posting this message from Phil. It reminds me that there is no self that gets the 'cold shower.' It is easy to forget that, and perhaps that was why Phil became dissatisfied with A Sujin's way of teaching. I don't mean to single Phil out; we all make the mistake from time to time of thinking that right understanding is for the future. We think, "Oh good, I am glad to have had this insight because it might help me later when I really need it!" But right understanding is for the here and now. There is no other time or place. There are just the presently arisen five khandhas. Ken H PS Thanks for the good wishes for "a Dhamma-ful and surf-ful new year" for Sue and me. The same to you and Jon! We could write a book - instead of Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance we could write Theravada and the Concept of Surfing. :-) #66515 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Dec 25, 2006 9:47 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] what can be the right balance jonoabb Hi Leo Leo wrote: > Hi > > Thank you for that website. I was loking at that and I can not find > about Eastern Sri Lanka. Where is that? If you know please let me know. > > Leo > Here is a link to Google. In the searchbox type 'sri lanka map' and you'll get a choice of websites (the Lonely Planet link clearly shows Adam's Peak). http://www.google.com If you want to know where Sri Lanka is, type 'world map' in the searchbox, then search within one of the links. Jon #66516 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Dec 25, 2006 9:49 pm Subject: merry christmas from phil sarahprocter... (This is a re-post with a minor amendment as requested by Phil) All, F/W message from Phil - he saw I had posted his comment and asked me to post the following further comments below. S. ********* Phil wrote: Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2006 14:35:25 +0000 Hi Sarah >>Listening to Acharn Sujin really helped there. I still think > > the > > "there is no nina" approach is spot on for helping with this sort of > > thing - > > the cold shower. >... >S: I understand completely... ***** Perhaps you could post the following? Actually, I was thinking about this afterwards and thought it was easy for me to say this when my mother isn't gone yet, and I don't look after her and so on. And have neveer indeed lost a close loved one. Easy for me to say. We'll see when it comes to the crunch. One thing I am feeling these days about Acharn Sujin is that she encourages a premature reliance on panna (without encouraging the gradual training that the Buddha teaches is the necessary condition for that panna) and it would take a rather deep degree of panna to *really* appreciate the cold shower. But maybe not. Who knows until it happens. In any case, it helped me at least deal with hearing the news of my mother's disease. Not quite the same thing as, say, holding her in my arms as she made croaking noises and stared beyond me with permanently frightened eyes, to imagine one scenario. We'll see... Phil #66517 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Dec 26, 2006 12:54 am Subject: Going Forth Faith ... !!! bhikkhu5 Friends: How is the Faith leading to Going Forth? Having heard the Buddha speak a householder or a householder's son or one born in some other family hears that Buddha-Dhamma. On hearing this sublime Dhamma he acquires faith in the Tathagata. Possessing that faith, he considers thus: Household life is crowded, cramped, and dusty. The Life gone forth is out in the wide open... It is not easy, while living in a home, to lead the Noble life utterly perfect and pure as a polished shell. Suppose I shave off my hair and beard, put on the yellow robe, and go forth from the home life into homelessness. On a later occasion, leaving behind any small or large fortune, leaving behind a small, or a large circle of relatives, he shaves off his hair and beard, puts on the ochre robe, and goes forth from the home life into homelessness... So is the faith of those who after countless lives at last have accumulated and now possesses the right and ripe conditions for attaining the advantageous state of Bhikkhu under Buddha... This is the next step towards the Bliss of Deathless NibbÄ?na! MN 27: Culahatthipadopama Sutta. The Short Elephant Footprint Simile http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.027.than.html Friendship is the Greatest Bhikkhu Samahita Ceylon <...> #66518 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Dec 26, 2006 1:44 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Cetasikas' study corner 613- Wholesome Deeds(j) sarahprocter... Hi Sukin, Bill (James & all) Sukin, you wrote a very well-considered post (#66410), I thought. --- sukinder wrote: <....> > We have accumulated so much akusala, particularly avijja that even after > hearing about presently arisen dhammas, there is still avijja almost all > the > time. The path by which satipatthana arises is via listening and > considering > over and over again about the different characteristics of dhammas so > that > at times some of their characteristics are known with any degree of > understanding. One grows in familiarity with the different dhammas and > gradually learn not to be fooled by them (conventionally speaking). But > even > if there is no sati of the level, one can at least appreciate that it > does > not happen precisely because there is not enough wisdom accumulated from > hearing and considering, re: suttamaya panna and cintamaya panna which > leads > to bhavanamaya panna. ..... S: Nicely said. It also reminded me that I had meant to make a minor correction in something I said with regard to suttamaya panna and cintamaya panna. As you say, they refre to 'wisdom accumulated from hearing and considering.' ..... > <...> > Another thing about 'meditation techniques': The Buddha for an instant, > hesitated to teach the Dhamma and this was because he understood it to > be > very profound. A kind of understanding, completely different from every > other teaching ever. He did however do so, because he saw that there > were > indeed some people who had accumulated the wisdom to comprehend it and > could > likewise gain liberation. If in fact what he taught could be reduced to > some > "technique", do you think he would have hesitated at first?! I don't > think > so. ..... S: Yes, I don't think there's anything deep, profound and 'revolutionary' in any technique either. Btw, Bill & James, if you didn't reach this letter of Nina's before, you may find it interesting. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/61987 Thanks to you all for your good discussion. Bill, I can tell you've passed James's tough initiation tests here with flying colours -- even iniviting him to butter more toast, yikes! Sukin, look f/w to seeing you in Bkk. Metta, Sarah ========= #66519 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Dec 25, 2006 9:17 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasikas' study corner 613- Wholesome Deeds(j) upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and Sukin, and also James and Bill) - In a message dated 12/26/06 4:45:31 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > Hi Sukin, Bill (James &all) > > Sukin, you wrote a very well-considered post (#66410), I thought. -------------------------------------- Howard: I see Sukin's post somewhat differently from you Sarah, though I don't doubt its having been carefully considered. -------------------------------------- > > --- sukinder wrote: > <....> > >We have accumulated so much akusala, particularly avijja that even after > >hearing about presently arisen dhammas, there is still avijja almost all > >the > >time. The path by which satipatthana arises is via listening and > >considering > >over and over again about the different characteristics of dhammas so > >that > >at times some of their characteristics are known with any degree of > >understanding. One grows in familiarity with the different dhammas and > >gradually learn not to be fooled by them (conventionally speaking). But > >even > >if there is no sati of the level, one can at least appreciate that it > >does > >not happen precisely because there is not enough wisdom accumulated from > >hearing and considering, re: suttamaya panna and cintamaya panna which > >leads > >to bhavanamaya panna. ----------------------------------------- Howard: It is not my reading of the suttas that "The path by which satipatthana arises is via listening and considering over and over again about the different characteristics of dhammas so that at times some of their characteristics are known with any degree of understanding." The path by which satipatthana arises is multifaceted, multilevel, and involves various practices, and is most fully expressed in the Satipatthana Sutta that deals with direct observation and investigation, not repeated listening and considering. ------------------------------------------- > ..... > S: Nicely said. It also reminded me that I had meant to make a minor > correction in something I said with regard to suttamaya panna and > cintamaya panna. As you say, they refre to 'wisdom accumulated from > hearing and considering.' > ..... > > > <...> > >Another thing about 'meditation techniques': The Buddha for an instant, > >hesitated to teach the Dhamma and this was because he understood it to > >be > >very profound. A kind of understanding, completely different from every > >other teaching ever. He did however do so, because he saw that there > >were > >indeed some people who had accumulated the wisdom to comprehend it and > >could > >likewise gain liberation. If in fact what he taught could be reduced to > >some > >"technique", do you think he would have hesitated at first?! I don't > >think > >so. ------------------------------------------ Howard: Will I have "but little dust in my eyes" if only I adhere to the listen-and-consider, one-trick-pony school of Dhamma practice? This listen-and-consider business, while clearly essential, is NOT the whole of Dhamma practice, but only the first step, being the means for understanding what the practice is, and getting a glimpse of what that practice may lead to. The Buddha's body of teaching is the map. The practice requires hitting the road. ------------------------------------------- > ..... > S: Yes, I don't think there's anything deep, profound and 'revolutionary' > in any technique either. ------------------------------------------- Howard: There is the entire multifaceted practice, integrated into ones life. As one proceeds, the practice and ones life become one and the same. No, there is no one "technique" that is a panacea. And listening and considering is no panacea. Dhamma practice is complex and significant, and, yes, subtle. With metta, Howard #66520 From: "robmoult" Date: Tue Dec 26, 2006 3:07 am Subject: [dsg] Re: If not pakatupanissaya... robmoult Hi Larry, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@... wrote: > > Hi Rob, > > Regarding your question why so little has been written about natural > decisive support condition, here are a few thoughts: > > First, in re-reading the basic definitions I think I mis-spoke in > implying that natural decisive support condition is all about > accumulations. It is actually closer to "natural law" (I forgot the pali > for this). > ===== I think the Pali term that you are looking for is niyama. Niyama is a much broader term than pakatupanissaya. ===== > Feeling quite naturally conditions desire because that is the > nature of the two, even for a new born baby who has very few > accumulations. > ===== A newborn baby has lots of accumulations (from previous lives). ===== > > "Accumulation" here is different from accumulations of kamma which > eventually produce kamma result. Desire isn't a kamma result. > "Accumulation" in the sense I was using it is the repetition of kamma, > and repetition _naturally_ conditions more repetition. But the basic > relationship between feeling and desire is primary. > ===== Let us compare pakatupanissaya condition and asynchronous kamma condition: - These are the only two conditions where there is an indefinite time period between the conditioning state (the trigger) and the conditioned state (the result) - Asynchronous kamma condition only conditions vikapa states whereas pakatupanissaya condition conditions ALL states (vipaka and non- vipaka) - According to Vism XVII 177-178, the two of them work together at time of rebirth. ===== > Perhaps one reason very little is written about this condition is > because the analysis of "what makes this 'natural'?" ends up being very > speculative. "Nature" tends to be even more slippery than "dhamma". But > if you want to take this on and write a book, go for it! Even if you are > wrong it will quite naturally condition a closer look. ===== Thanks for your encouragement! Metta, Rob M :-) #66521 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Dec 26, 2006 3:08 am Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 620- Wholesome Deeds(q) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) =============================================== Wholesome Deeds contd Another one of the bases of meritorious deeds is listening to Dhamma and this is included in mental development. When we listen to the Dhamma and study it we learn what is kusala and what akusala, we learn about kamma and vipåka and the way how to develop kusala. Development of calm and of insight starts with listening; there could not be any mental development if one does not know how to apply oneself to it. Listening to the Dhamma or reading the scriptures and considering what we learnt are conditions for the arising of mindfulness of nåma and rúpa. Although we know that listening to the Dhamma and studying it is beneficial we may be inclined to put it off. We believe that we have too many duties to perform or we are distracted by the enjoyment of pleasant objects. When we really see the usefulness of the study of the Dhamma we can accumulate the inclination to listen to the Dhamma or to read the scriptures. Reading even a few lines at a time can be most beneficial. ***** Wholesome Deeds to be contd Metta, Sarah ====== #66522 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Dec 26, 2006 3:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Stressing sila & Cutting off at feeling jonoabb Hi Howard and Matt OK, you are taking a conventional cognitive/affective classification and relating it to this aspect of the teachings. I'm not sure the two mix very well, since the instances you give of the cognitive and the affective are mostly factors that, in Dhamma terms, arise together. Matt may wish to comment on this approach being attributed to him. Jon upasaka@... wrote: > Hi, Jon - > ... > > ---------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Cognition pertains to knowing (correctly or incorrectly) in some > informational way as opposed to an affective way. Feeling, emoting, craving, hating > - none of them is cognitive. Thinking, perceiving, conceiving, misconceiving > - they are all cognitive. How we think about things and how we perceive them > affects how we react to them emotionally. The affective is strongly based in > the cognitive. > The influence goes the other way as well, of course, also. In fact, at > the most basic level, affective takes the lead: The Buddha said what one > feels, one perceives/recognizes. > ---------------------------------------------- > > ... >> You've lost me here, as I'm not familiar with the terminology. Would >> you mind saying a little about what is meant by wisdom being beneficial >> 'affectively' and 'cognitively'? Thanks. >> > > --------------------------------------- > Howard: > Wisdom, a cognitive factor, uproots not only cognitive defilements, > but affective ones as well. > -------------------------------------- > #66523 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Dec 26, 2006 3:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: merry christmas from phil sarahprocter... Hi KenH & all, --- ken_aitch wrote: >...we all make the mistake from time to > time of thinking that right understanding is for the future. We think, > "Oh good, I am glad to have had this insight because it might help me > later when I really need it!" But right understanding is for the here > and now. There is no other time or place. There are just the presently > arisen five khandhas. ..... S: Yes, the 'test' is always now. If there is no development of understanding now, we can't expect it to arise in future. Sometimes people get the idea that we go around in our ordinary day-to-day life telling people they don't exist or that there is only seeing and visible object now. Of course, this isn't so at all, lol! What we talk about or the help we give others depends on the situation. Again, no rule and we don't know in advance how we will act or speak or how we will face serious 'tests' in advance. I'd like to tell you about our experience at Big Wave Bay today. We went off early for our walk down to the beach for our swim and surf - beautiful weather here for the holiday and a lovely empty beach. After we have our swim/surf, we nearly always sit outside the beach kiosk and have a cup of tea and coffee and often a bowl of noodles or fried rice for lunch. A very kind Thai lady, Kim, runs the kiosk and always takes good care of us. Kim has really taken care of me these last few weeks, especially when I couldn't go in the water and just sat around in my 'cutting-edge' fashion statements. She made special flapjack and all the sorts of things my mother used to do when I was small and sick. She also has taken some interest in Buddhism and greatly appreciates our study/interest/lifestyle. Today when we arrived, I could see Kim was distraught as she struggled with tasks as usual. Last night (Xmas night), she'd got the news that her only son in Northern Thailand had been in a car crash and was in a coma! She was finishing up at the kiosk and planning to get a flight this afternoon. We gave her sympathy, we listened, we gave her cash to help with her son's medical expenses and just a little dhamma when she brought up the topic --the suffering and tragedy as the way life is, kamma, helping as best one can, metta. She was doubting she'd be able to help her son at all, but we were urging her to get to him as soon as possible and to do all she could. He was likely to sense she was there and needed her. At no point did we say 'there's no son' or anything that would have been inappropriate for her at the time. I'm only mentioning this because perhaps others here think you and we go around during the day, repeating the same words regardless of the circumstances and of course that's not true at all:-). ... > PS Thanks for the good wishes for "a Dhamma-ful and surf-ful new year" > for Sue and me. The same to you and Jon! We could write a book - > instead of Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance we could write > Theravada and the Concept of Surfing. :-) .... S: It just doesn't have the right 'ring'.....we need to work on it :-) I expect Noosa is packed with visitors these days over the holiday weekend.... Metta, Sarah ======== #66524 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Dec 26, 2006 3:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] How to control your anger! jonoabb Hi Howard upasaka@... wrote: > Hi, Jon (and Nitesh, and Kanchaa) - > ... > >> I think if you look into the texts, you'll find that anger is no bar to >> the development of insight. Below are a couple of extracts from the >> Satipatthana Sutta (M.10) (the sutta I mentioned in a recent post to >> you). It's obvious from these that the person developing insight >> described there does so despite the continued arising of anger. >> >> So 'controlling anger' is not really a prerequisite to developing >> insight. Of course, we would all like to control our anger, but if we >> consider more deeply what the Buddha said we may come to the conclusion >> that this is a mission impossible for all but the already enlightened. >> >> Jon > ====================== > If I might add to this: The very process of being clearly aware of > anger enables the "seeing" that it causes immediate pain in oneself, thereby > displaying it's undesirability and leading to a natural dropping of it, just as as > one would automatically drop a burning coal. Generally, the process of > mindful examination of dhammas with an increasingly calm and clear mind lays bare > the nature of dhammas and leads to distaste for the harmful ones and a natural, > automatic relinquishment of them. > Thanks for coming in with these comments. I think the idea you are expressing here is that bare attention to akusala mind-states will result in their falling away. This idea is sometimes taken to form the basis of a kind of 'practice', as a way of having less aksuala. As I see it, however, that is just another attempt at control of dhammas, and is not the development of the path taught by the Buddha. There is no general principle that more awareness means less akusala manifesting in one's life. Of course, the development of awareness will bring a better appreciation of all kinds of kusala, but the latent tendencies for akusala will see to it that akusala continues to arise in our life regardless (this is all part of starting from where we now are, I think). Jon #66525 From: melek cilingir Date: Tue Dec 26, 2006 3:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Faults of Goenka's Meditation Method melekcilingir hi james, joop, bill james: GOENKA'S METHOD: Goenka teaches that one need only focus on the bodily sensations because all mental states and mental objects are translated into bodily sensations. ... The grave falshood that Goenka teaches is that mental states and mental objects (as well as eye, ear, nose, and mouth consciousness) can be known by observing bodily sensations alone. m: not really. for the meditation of liberation from misery, bodily sensations are important. this does not mean that mental feeling (somanassa and domanassa) is to be ignored, it continues simultaneously. remember the satipathana courses. joop: (I have another problem with Goenka meditation, based on my > anarchistic attitude: it's so well organised, it's a multinational in > which everywhere in the world excactly the same system is teached, a > la McDonald with everywere in the world exactly the same food > offered. But's that not a fundamental points, other people don't have > a problem with this) m: that is really interesting. because most of the applicants in turkey (and greece) are alternative people who have anarchistic attitude. yes, the organization has very strict rules, but not about food. maybe it is because they are asked to serve very simple vegetarian food. i can tell foreigners find the food we served very different and delicious. bill: Another problem we had was the fact that my wife, who is an oncology nurse, practices Healing Touch which the hospital where she works allows as an alternative therapy. They were so much against this that at first they would not let her attend until she signed an aggreement to not practice Healing Touch at the retreat, which seemed ridiculous anyway. Then at the end, they told her that she was going to have to abandon the Healing Touch practice altogether if she wanted to continue with the Goenka method. m: reiki, and similar energy based healing techniques that involve drawing upon energy source outside of yourself and involve any attempt to mentally direct, alter or otherwise manipulate energy within other persons are considered in conflict with vipassana meditation. during the registration, these applicants are informed about this situation and asked them not to practice it in the course. if they would like to practice vipassana then this healing technique which is incompatible will have a potential conflict for your practice. they make no judgement about the technique you have been practicing. it is the choice you make. i never practiced the above techniques. but if i did, i would have understood the reason. metta melek ps: my posts seem to arrive hours after they are sent (next day, sometimes). am i the only one suffered from this? #66526 From: melek cilingir Date: Tue Dec 26, 2006 3:44 am Subject: vedana melekcilingir hi all, these are the passages i found clarifying that vedana indicates sensations on the body. Yathapi vata akase, vayanti vividha puthu; puratthima pacchima capi, uttara atha dakkhina. Saraja araja capi, sita unha ca ekada; adhimatta paritta ca, puthu vayanti maluta. Tathevimasmim kayasmim, samuppajjanti vedana; sukhadukkhasamuppatti, adukkhamasukha ca ya. Yato ca bhikkhu atapi, sampajannam na rincati; tato so vedana sabba, parijanati pandito. So vedana parinnaya, ditthe dhamme anasavo; kayassa bheda dhammattho, sankhyam nopeti vedagu'ti. (samyutta nikaya 2.4.260) Through the sky blow many different winds,from east and west, from north and south,dust-laden and dustless, cold as well as hot,fierce gales and gentle breezes-many winds blow. In the same way, in this body, sensations arise, pleasant, unpleasant, and neutral. When a bhikkhu, practising ardently, does not neglect his faculty of thorough understanding, then such a wise person fully comprehends all sensations. And having fully comprehended them, within this very life he becomes freed from all impurities. At his life's end, such a person, being established in Dhamma and understanding sensations perfectly, attains the indescribable stage. Pakatupanissayo-kayikam sukham kayikassa sukhassa, kayikassa dukkhassa, phalasamapattiya upanissayapaccayena paccayo. Kayikam dukkham kayikassa sukhassa, kayikassa dukkhassa, phalasamapattiya upanissayapaccayena paccayo. (patthana 1.1.423) Pleasant bodily sensation is the cause for the arising of pleasant sensation of the body, unpleasant sensation of the body, and attainment of fruition (nibbana) in relation to the strong dependent condition. Unpleasant bodily sensation is the cause for the arising of pleasant sensation of the body, unpleasant sensation of the body, and attainment of fruition (nibbana) in relation to the strong dependent condition. Pakatupanissayo-kayikam sukham upanissaya... vipassanam uppadeti, maggam uppadeti, abhinnam uppadeti, samapattim uppadeti. (patthana 1.1.423) Dependent on pleasant bodily sensations... Vipassana arises... Path arises... Knowledge arises... attainment of (nibbana) arises. i know some of you are expert in pali. hope i can start to learn this language next year. looking forward to reading your comments melek #66527 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Dec 25, 2006 11:59 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Stressing sila & Cutting off at feeling upasaka_howard Hi, Jon (and Matt) - In a message dated 12/26/06 6:45:34 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonabbott@... writes: > Hi Howard and Matt > > OK, you are taking a conventional cognitive/affective classification and > relating it to this aspect of the teachings. > > I'm not sure the two mix very well, since the instances you give of the > cognitive and the affective are mostly factors that, in Dhamma terms, > arise together. -------------------------------------- Howard: Nama and rupa arise together. Vin~n~nana and namarupa arise together. Cetasikas and citta arise together. If there is a point you are making, Jon, it evades me. ------------------------------------- > > Matt may wish to comment on this approach being attributed to him. > > Jon > =================== With metta, Howard #66528 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Dec 26, 2006 12:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] How to control your anger! upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 12/26/06 7:11:29 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonabbott@... writes: > > If I might add to this: The very process of being clearly aware of > >anger enables the "seeing" that it causes immediate pain in oneself, > thereby > >displaying it's undesirability and leading to a natural dropping of it, > just as as > >one would automatically drop a burning coal. Generally, the process of > >mindful examination of dhammas with an increasingly calm and clear mind > lays bare > >the nature of dhammas and leads to distaste for the harmful ones and a > natural, > >automatic relinquishment of them. > > > > Thanks for coming in with these comments. I think the idea you are > expressing here is that bare attention to akusala mind-states will > result in their falling away. > > This idea is sometimes taken to form the basis of a kind of 'practice', > as a way of having less aksuala. As I see it, however, that is just > another attempt at control of dhammas, and is not the development of the > path taught by the Buddha. ------------------------------------- Howard: Attending to exactly what arises, with calm and clarity and equanimity is precisely what the Buddha taught, especially in such suttas as the Satipatthana Sutta. And he taught it with an AIM, the cultivation of the mind. ------------------------------------------- > > There is no general principle that more awareness means less akusala > manifesting in one's life. Of course, the development of awareness will > bring a better appreciation of all kinds of kusala, but the latent > tendencies for akusala will see to it that akusala continues to arise in > our life regardless (this is all part of starting from where we now are, > I think). ------------------------------------------- Howard: Abbottdhamma. ------------------------------------------ > > Jon > ==================== With metta, Howard #66529 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Dec 26, 2006 12:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] vedana upasaka_howard Hi, Melek - There are certainly plenty of references to pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral bodily sensations. They are sensations which are experienced (by the operstion of vedana) as pleasant, unpleasant or neutral. But those sensations are rupa, not vedana. With metta, Howard #66530 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Dec 26, 2006 12:35 am Subject: Cognitive and Affective Defilements (Re: [dsg] Stressing sila & Cutting off ...) upasaka_howard Hi, Jon (and Matt) - The Buddha distinguished between affective and cognitive defilements, and he distinguished their vanquishers. In this regard, plkease recall the following, copied at the end. With metta, Howard _______________________ AN 2.30 Vijja-bhagiya Sutta A Share in Clear Knowing Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu PTS: A i 61 (II,iii,10) Source: Transcribed from a file provided by the translator. Copyright © 1998 Thanissaro Bhikkhu. Access to Insight edition © 1998 For free distribution. This work may be republished, reformatted, reprinted, and redistributed in any medium. It is the author's wish, however, that any such republication and redistribution be made available to the public on a free and unrestricted basis and that translations and other derivative works be clearly marked as such. "These two qualities have a share in clear knowing. Which two? Tranquillity (samatha) & insight (vipassana). "When tranquillity is developed, what purpose does it serve? The mind is developed. And when the mind is developed, what purpose does it serve? Passion is abandoned. "When insight is developed, what purpose does it serve? Discernment is developed. And when discernment is developed, what purpose does it serve? Ignorance is abandoned. "Defiled by passion, the mind is not released. Defiled by ignorance, discernment does not develop. Thus from the fading of passion is there awareness-release. From the fading of ignorance is there discernment-release." #66531 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Dec 26, 2006 7:40 am Subject: Re: processes of cittas scottduncan2 Dear Venerable Dhammanando, I'll appreciate the following, thanks: D: "I am presently typing up a lengthy extract about Makkhali from Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation. It's for a reply to a post on E-sangha, but I can post the passage here too." I should be getting the copies of the books I ordered in a month or so, as I found them all used. Sincerely, Scott. #66532 From: "bjones6513" Date: Tue Dec 26, 2006 8:22 am Subject: Re: vedana bjones6513 ---Hi Howard and All, I feel the basic problem, which you stated, is that those sensations are rupa. This is where my confusion is. I constantly confuse the definitions along with many others, including many commentators on the suttas. With metta, Bill ======================== > There are certainly plenty of references to pleasant, unpleasant, or > neutral bodily sensations. They are sensations which are experienced (by the > operstion of vedana) as pleasant, unpleasant or neutral. But those sensations > are rupa, not vedana. > #66533 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Dec 26, 2006 9:03 am Subject: Perspectives Re: Stressing sila... scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, Its Boxing Day, time to catch up a bit as well. Thanks for your reply: S: "A development of understanding certainly doesn't mean any less care and kindness for your children as you spelled out (if I recall). Quite the contrary in fact!" I think so. All sorts of things arise in interactions, of course, right? If anything, one notices the unwholesome things too. This is harder in the way, since conceit is conditioned along with the rest and one is like, 'Oh, I'm crabby', or 'This kid is driving me crazy' or whatever and then, 'Man, I suck, I should be better at this' or something. Understanding just understands. But then it seems to condition other things. S: "I just had a brief sharing of Xmas greetings with Phil which reminded me of this theme. He was thanking us for a c.d. and I enquired after his mother. He repeated (as he's said before on-list) that with regard to his mother's condition, 'Listening to Acharn Sujin really helped there. I still think the "there is no nina" approach is spot on for helping with this sort of thing - the cold shower.'" It seems that the 'there's no one' thing allows for detachment of some degree or other. I don't think detachment negates other mental factors such as mettaa. Nor, of course, can one will oneself to be 'detached'. I suppose its a certain quality of citta which serves as condition. Say, for example, there is a boy playing road hockey with his dad, like there actually was earlier. Say the boy gets all upset at a failure to make a good shot and becomes all pissy, directing his frustration at the hapless dad frozen in the goal. The dad could notice that he's now feeling pissy and about to join in and act equally pissy but some level of understanding could condition thoughts like, 'Well, its just feelings about colour', or 'No dad' or some such. This could be condition for not acting with pissiness and maybe acting with kindness instead. I think though, that the 'acting with kindness' is kamma for the 'dad' and has nothing to do with the 'boy', or that other 'flux' or 'stream of consciousness' if you know what I mean. The concepts 'dad' and 'boy' and 'hockey' for that matter (although this latter of a much higher order naturally being 'of hockey' and all) are no less apparent at least at this level of understanding but the dad can find a thought like 'No dad' in his head which could alter the whole nature of citta. Care of the ill, I suppose, would also be constituted similarily. No 'one' who is ill, but conditions for arising dhammas including understanding, mettaa and the like. Oh, well, best I can do with a frozen head... Sincerely, Scott. #66534 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Dec 26, 2006 5:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: vedana upasaka_howard Hi, Bill - In a message dated 12/26/06 11:28:11 AM Eastern Standard Time, Bjones6513@... writes: > Hi Howard and All, > I feel the basic problem, which you stated, is that those sensations are > rupa. This is where my confusion is. I constantly confuse the definitions > along with many others, including many commentators on the suttas. > With metta, > Bill > ================ Here is my understanding: Namas are operations of knowing (in some fashion), or operations that assist knowing. They, of course, can also *be* known. But what cannot know or assist knowing, that is, what can *only* be known, are rupas. They are such things as hardness, warmth, motion, sights, sounds, tastes, and smells. Bodily sensations probably fall for the most part under one of the "earth element", "air element", "fire element", and "water element" categories or are compounds or complexes viewed conceptually as units. (Note: The remainder of this post is an aside, is speculative, and could be skipped as regards the core of this topic.) As for nibbana, well, Abhidhamma calls it nama, and gives what I consider a convoluted and strained reason for doing so. I personally think of nibbana - or, better, conceptually point to it, rather vaguely I admit, as the ungraspable, free, indestructable, and empty nature of reality, and I don't think of it as a phenomenon like other phenomena to be categorized as nama or rupa or in any other way. It goes beyond all conditions and categories. Imagine an infinite, brilliantly luminous, indestructable diamond with infinitely-many facets, no facet existing as a thing of its own in isolation from the others nor from the diamond itself, but without the facets there being no diamond at all. The infinitude, luminosity, interdependency, and indestructability constitute the nature of diamond reality, and that is my sense of nibbana. Here one can only resort to metaphor, it seems to me. The reality is beyond description. With metta, Howard. #66535 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 26, 2006 10:39 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily life 161 nilovg Dear friends, The Visuddhimagga (III, 129) states that one should sever anything which can be an impediment to the development of samatha. Impediments are, for example, travelling and sickness, and also the place where one lives can be an impediment. One should avoid living in a monastery which, for various reasons, is unfavourable to the development of samatha. Thus, even before one begins to develop samatha, many conditions have to be fulfilled. For the development of samatha one has to apply oneself to a suitable subject of meditation. There are forty meditation subjects which can condition calm and these are the following: 10 kasina exercises, which are, for example, kasinas (disks) of particular colours, the earth kasina or the kasina of light. 10 loathsome subjects (in Påli: asubha), the ``cemetery meditations''. 10 recollections, comprising the recollection of the Buddha, the Dhamma, the Sangha, virtue, generosty, deities, and also the recollections which are: mindfulness of death, mindfulness of the body, mindfulness of breathing and the recollection of peace (nibbåna). 1 The perception of repulsiveness in nutriment. 1 The definition of the four elements (earth, water, fire and wind). 4 brahma-vihåras (divine abidings), comprising: loving-kindness (mettå), compassion (karuùå), altruistic joy (muditå) and equanimity (upekkhå, which in this case is not upekkhå vedanå or indifferent feeling, but the wholesome cetasika which is tatramajjhattatå). 4 meditation subjects for the development of arúpa-jhånas (immaterial jhånas), which will be dealt with later on. Not all subjects are suitable for everybody, it depends on the individual which subject is a means for him to develop calm. If there is right understanding of the way to become calm by means of a suitable meditation subject, calm can grow, even in our daily life. Loving kindness and compassion, for instance, can and should be developed in our daily life, when we are in the company of other people, and then there are kusala cittas instead of akusala cittas. Recollection of the Dhamma includes also reflection on the teachings and this is beneficial for everybody; it helps one to begin to understand life. While we reflect with kusala citta on the teachings or on one of the other meditation subjects, there can be moments of calm if we do not cling to calm. ****** Nina. #66536 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 26, 2006 10:43 am Subject: Letters on Vipassana IV, 4 nilovg Dear friends, The Buddha taught the four "Applications of Mindfulness": mindfulness of body, of feelings, of cittas and of dhammas. Some people think that they should select one of these subjects, such as body or feelings, and only develop these. However, there should be awareness of any object which appears. If we try to select an object there is an idea of self who can control the appearance of particular objects. It depends on conditions whether visible object, sound, akusala citta or any other object appears. Sati can be aware of any object just as it naturally appears in our daily life. We do not have to make an effort to classify the object of awareness as one of the four Applications of Mindfulness. At one moment there may be awareness of rúpa, the next moment there may be awareness of citta or feeling, nobody can predict of which object there will be awareness. We should learn that all realities are anattå, they cannot be directed by a self. The Buddha taught the four Applications of Mindfulness in order to remind us to be aware of different kinds of nåma and rúpa as they naturally appear in our daily life. We read in the "Kindred Sayings" (V, Mahå-vagga, Book III, Kindred Sayings on the Applications of Mindfulness, Ch V, par. 9, Feelings) that the Buddha said, while he was at Såvatthí: Monks, there are these three feelings. What three? Feeling that is pleasant, feeling that is painful, feeling that is neither pleasant nor painful. These are the three feelings. For the full understanding of these three feelings the four applications of mindfulness ought to be cultivated... The four applications of mindfulness are cultivated by awareness of all kinds of nåma and rúpa which appear; there should not be mindfulness of only feeling. We read in the "Kindred Sayings"(V, Kindred Sayings on the Way, Ch VII, par. 9, Feelings) that the Buddha said, while he was at Såvatthí: Monks, there are these three feelings. What three? Feeling that is pleasant, feeling that is painful, feeling that is neither pleasant nor painful. These are the three. It is for the full comprehension of these three feelings that the ariyan eightfold Path must be cultivated. Feeling is nåma, it feels, thus it is different from rúpa which does not know anything. The difference between nåma and rúpa has to be clearly discerned before paññå can realize realities as impermanent, dukkha and anattå. In order to fully understand feeling there must be awareness of the characteristics of all the different kinds of nåma and rúpa which appear in daily life. Then right understanding of realities can grow. That is the development of the "Four Applications of Mindfulness" or satipatthåna, and that is the development of the eightfold Path. We do not have to think of classifications while we develop the Path in being aware of any object which appears. ******* Nina. #66537 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 26, 2006 11:01 am Subject: Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 nilovg Hi Howard, I have questions on the type of citta that meditates, on its object, on the clarity of what exactly, etc. But I keep these for after Thailand together with our dialogue re three instalments on Perfections, etc. I make too long working hours now because of the deadline. You kindly asked after the Christmas dinner I cooked. I was at the computer until three and then unexpectantly the family with three very lively children turned up, some hours earlier than expected! Conditions! The son of my late brother and his family, from France. We entertained them by playing music for them, and before we knew the event was all over, just like a dream. As Kh Sujin says: we all live as it were in a dream, it passes so quickly. New York, the Petrossian restaurant, our Dhamma talk, it is all past, like a dream. You said in New York: everything was so clear in meditation, and I did not say anything because I did not understand. But this is good for later. Meanwhile, a happy New Year to you and your family, also from Lodewijk, Nina. #66538 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 26, 2006 11:10 am Subject: If not pakatupanissaya nilovg Dear Rob M, pakatupanissaya, there are two terms here: pakata and pakati. I quote from my conditions: With regard to the third decisive support-condition, pakatúpanissaya-paccaya,the commentary to the "Paììhåna''(the•Pañcappakaraùatthakathå)explains the term "pakata''in pakatúpanissaya.Pakata means done properly,done thoroughly.Kusala and akusala which were "done thoroughly'',often performed,can become firmly accumulated,they can become habitual.In this way they are a cogent reason,a powerful inducement for the arising of kusala and akusala later on,which are the dhammas conditioned by them,the paccayupanna dhammas.Also external conditions,such as temperature, food,dwelling place and friends one associates with can be cogent reasons for the dhammas which they cause to arise. The commentary defines in addition the term pakatúpanissaya,by explaining the word "pakati''which is connected with "pakatúpanissaya'',as naturally,by nature. The conditioning factor conditions the arising of other dhammas naturally,and it can condition them without the assistance of decisive support- condition of object or proximate decisive support-condition.For example,when there is strong confidence (saddhå)in kusala,this can be a cogent reason for the arising of kusala citta without the need to be dependent on decisive support- condition of object or proximity decisive support-condition. We read in the "Paììhåna''(Faultless Triplet,VII,Investigation Chapter,Conditions Positive,§ 423,,c,Natural Strong Dependence): By the strong dependence of confidence...of precept (síla)...of learning... generosity...By the strong dependence of wisdom,(one)offers the offering, undertakes the precept,fulfils the duty of observance,develops jhåna,develops insight,develops Path,develops superknowledge,develops attainment. Confidence,precept,learning,generosity,wisdom is related to confidence, precept,learning,generosity,wisdom,by strong dependence condition. Good and bad qualities accumulated in the past become our nature,they condition the different cittas in the present life by way of natural decisive support- condition.We read in the "Mahå-Sutasoma Jåtaka''(Jåtaka Stories V,no. 537) that the Buddha said that not only in his present life he had tamed the robber Aògulimåla who had slain many people but later on attained arahatship,but also in a former life when the Buddha was King Sutasoma and Aògulimåla was the King of Båråùasí.Once the King's cook could not obtain meat and gave him, without telling him,human flesh.We read (458): ...No sooner was a bit of the meat placed on the tip of the King's tongue than it sent a thrill through the seven thousand nerves of taste and continued to create a disturbance throughout his whole body.Why was this?From his having previously resorted to this food.... His longing for human flesh became exceedingly strong,it determined his whole•life.He was unable to give up his craving,so he abandoned his kingdom and kept on murdering for the sake of human flesh.He had accumulated greed for human flesh because in his preceding life he had been a man-eating Yakkha.His previous accumulations were the natural decisive support-condition for the arising of greed for human flesh and for his killing of human beings.He could not refrain from taking human flesh.Thus we see that deeds performed in the past are a natural decisive support-condition for deeds at the present.Akusala kamma is dangerous since it does not only produce unpleasant vipåka,but by performing akusala kamma the tendency is accumulated to perform akusala kamma again. -------- Also asynchromous kamma-condition needs pakatupanissaya-condition in order to be able to produce result. As you know, several conditions are cooperating for the occurrence of dhammas, Nina. #66539 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Dec 26, 2006 7:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 12/26/06 2:08:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > I have questions on the type of citta that meditates, on its object, > on the clarity of what exactly, etc. --------------------------------------- Howard: I am sure I am unable to answer such questions in a manner that will satisfy. First of all, I don't believe there are "cittas that meditate". I just don't think in such terms, Nina. Cittas aren't little meditators. Moreover, there is not a unique sort of mindstate associated with meditating, just as there is no unique sort of mindstate associated with eating, or with studying, or with emailing. Meditation is a conventional mental process, or, better, it is many mental processes, involving many sorts of mindstates. Meditating isn't just a single activity. While "meditating" is going on, whatever that may involve on a particular occasion, a multitude of varying sorts of mindstates occur. At the start of meditating, the mind is quite "ordinary", and at other times the states are "extraordinary". I don't study a theories of meditating nor do I attempt to create one. I don't theorize about meditating. I merely engage in it. When it goes "well", the mind calms down, clears up, and observes far more finely. At times, when jhana is approached, these factors intensify, and rapture and joy arise. When a jhana is entered there is a sense of locked-in stability. --------------------------------------- But I keep these for after > > Thailand together with our dialogue re three instalments on > Perfections, etc. > I make too long working hours now because of the deadline. > You kindly asked after the Christmas dinner I cooked. I was at the > computer until three and then unexpectantly the family with three > very lively children turned up, some hours earlier than expected! --------------------------------------- Howard: LOL! Unexpected early arrival of guests is always a "happy" event! ;-) --------------------------------------- > Conditions! The son of my late brother and his family, from France. > We entertained them by playing music for them, and before we knew the > event was all over, just like a dream. As Kh Sujin says: we all live > as it were in a dream, it passes so quickly. New York, the Petrossian > restaurant, our Dhamma talk, it is all past, like a dream. --------------------------------------- Howard: Here we quite agree! It is all like a dream that disappears at dawn. May this dream of samsara disappear for us at a dawn soon to come - the dawn of bodhi. ----------------------------------------- > You said in New York: everything was so clear in meditation, and I > did not say anything because I did not understand. > ----------------------------------------- Howard: It is not always so. Conditions, eh? LOL! But when it IS so, it is remarkable, like a clear mountain spring! ---------------------------------------- But this is good > > for later. Meanwhile, a happy New Year to you and your family, also > from Lodewijk, ------------------------------------------ Howard: The same to you! :-) May 2007 be a wonderful year of joy, Dhamma progress, and excellent health for you both! ----------------------------------------- > Nina. > > =================== With metta, Howard #66540 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Dec 26, 2006 5:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 buddhatrue Hi Howard (and Nina), Very excellent answers to Nina's questions! I hope you won't mind me adding some additional information about regular cittas, jhana cittas, and differences in cetasikas during meditation. (Sometimes you have to speak the person's language for them understand ;-)). --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Nina - > I don't theorize about meditating. I merely engage in it. When it goes > "well", the mind calms down, clears up, and observes far more finely. At times, when > jhana is approached, these factors intensify, and rapture and joy arise. When > a jhana is entered there is a sense of locked-in stability. "It is a well-known fact that mind does not ordinarily stay fixed on one object. It is flitting about in all directions. If, however, one can culture one's own mind in a proper way, it stays fixed, without flitting about even once, on an object, from a few hours to a few days. This kind of mental concentration on an object is called samádhi. Two Kinds of Samádhi There are two kinds of samádhi. They are— 1. Upacara samádhi. 2. Appana samádhi. Appana samádhi is another name for Jhana. Upacara samádhi is samádhi that precedes appana samádhi. Upacara samádhi is defined as samádhi, which is close to appana samádhi. It helps appana samádhi to take place. Appana samádhi is defined as samádhi, which fixes cittas (thought- moments) on the mental object. As soon as the appana samádhi takes place, it appears as if one's cittas are continuously running into the mental object.... Limitless Jhana Cittas However, it is different when one is in a jhana state. His jhana cittas are not like ordinary vithi cittas, which are limited to seventeen thought-moments at a time. Sometimes, under extraordinary circumstances, the vithi cittas are less than seventeen in a set. Jhana cittas are limitless. If, for example, he is in a jhana state for one hour; his jhana cittas take place, one after another, for one hour. Bhavanga cittas have no chance to take place during that period. Jhanangas Moreover, one point, which distinguishes jhana cittas from ordinary vithi cittas, should also be mentioned. There are what is known as cetasikas (mental concomitants). They are 52 in number. Whenever a citta (mind) takes place, appropriate cetasikas, out of these 52, also take, place simultaneously. When they take place with ordinary vithi cittas, these cetasikas are ordinary cetasikas. They have no power to prevent nivaranas from taking place in the mind. When, however, they take place in jhana cittas, these cetasikas are transformed. They are no longer ordinary cetasikas. They are known as jhanangas. Jhanangas mean parts of a jhana. These jhanangas are six in number. They are as follows: 1. Vitakka 2. Vicara 3. Piti 4. Sukha (vedana) 5. Upekkha (vedana) 6. Ekaggata 1. Vitakka is a jhananga, which paves the way for the bhávaná object to appear in the mind. 2. Vicara is a jhananga that examines the bhávaná object. Vitakka is forceful. Vicara is delicate. 3. Piti is a jhananga that gives emotion of joy. 4. Sukha is happiness. http://www.buddhistinformation.com/three_fundamental_concepts.htm Metta, James #66541 From: "bjones6513" Date: Tue Dec 26, 2006 6:03 pm Subject: Re: Cetasikas' study corner 613- Wholesome Deeds(j) bjones6513 > Hi Sarah, Thanks for the post. I'm sure the initiation was well-meant. I probably won't have much time to keep up on the emails until after Jan 8th since I'll be in retreat in Tampa with Bhante Gunaratana. Also, I haven't forgot the photo. Have a happy New Year. Metta, Bill > > > > Bill, I can tell you've passed James's tough initiation tests here with > > flying colours -- even iniviting him to butter more toast, yikes! > > #66542 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Dec 26, 2006 6:42 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 scottduncan2 Dear Howard, A few serious questions, if I may: Howard: "I don't believe there are 'cittas that meditate'...Cittas aren't little meditators." What is it that 'meditates' then? H: "Moreover, there is not a unique sort of mindstate associated with meditating, just as there is no unique sort of mindstate associated with eating, or with studying, or with emailing." What is a 'mindstate'? What, then, is jhaana? H: "Meditation is a conventional mental process, or, better, it is many mental processes, involving many sorts of mindstates. Meditating isn't just a single activity. While 'meditating' is going on, whatever that may involve on a particular occasion, a multitude of varying sorts of mindstates occur. At the start of meditating, the mind is quite 'ordinary', and at other times the states are 'extraordinary'." Is there a Paali word you are translating as 'meditation'? Do you equate 'mindstate' with 'citta'? Do these 'mindstates' occur consecutively? Concurrently? H: "...When it goes 'well', the mind calms down, clears up, and observes far more finely. At times, when jhana is approached, these factors intensify, and rapture and joy arise. When a jhana is entered there is a sense of locked-in stability." What is 'the mind'? Is it an agent that 'observes'? How do you define 'jhaana'? How do one know when one is in it? What experiences the 'sense of locked-in stability? What is the benefit in pursuing this 'state'? If you have the time I'd like to read your responses to these questions. To be clear, I guess, I am convinced by the arguments here within DSG regarding the nature of mental development (the old 'party-line', eh). The arguments put forward here and elsewhere by 'meditators' have failed to convince me on the grounds that too much conscious control seems to always be emphasised; not to mention too much certainty that these states one engages in are 'jhaana'. Thanks for your consideration. Sincerely, Scott. #66543 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Dec 26, 2006 7:17 pm Subject: Re: Cetasikas' study corner 613- Wholesome Deeds(j) buddhatrue Hi Bill, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "bjones6513" wrote: > > > > > Hi Sarah, > Thanks for the post. I'm sure the initiation was well-meant. I'm glad you realize that; and I never have the intention to 'initiate' anyone into this group! LOL! (But Sarah's joke was very funny. ;-)) I just have a very unique way of expressing myself which is often disconcerting to most sweet, gentle Buddhists. (BTW, in person I am nothing like the way I write). So, please be patient with me and keep in mind that we each have different accumulations- and it is intention that counts the most. I am very glad you are in this group, as you seem to have a good head on your shoulders. I hope you stick around for the long haul. Metta, James #66544 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Dec 26, 2006 2:43 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 upasaka_howard Hi, Scott - In a message dated 12/26/06 9:43:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, scduncan@... writes: > Dear Howard, > > A few serious questions, if I may: > > Howard: "I don't believe there are 'cittas that meditate'...Cittas > aren't little meditators." > > What is it that 'meditates' then? -------------------------------------- Howard: First of all, don't look for a doer. The doing is enough! Presuming a doer is a form of atta-belief. Secondly, as I said in my post, meditation is a conventional activity (or, better said, many activities), and it involves a multitude of mindstates. ------------------------------------ > > H: "Moreover, there is not a unique sort of mindstate associated with > meditating, just as there is no unique sort of mindstate associated > with eating, or with studying, or with emailing." > > What is a 'mindstate'? What, then, is jhaana? -------------------------------------- Howard: Look it up. -------------------------------------- > H: "Meditation is a conventional mental process, or, better, it is > many mental processes, involving many sorts of mindstates. Meditating > isn't just a single activity. While 'meditating' is going on, whatever > that may involve on a particular occasion, a multitude of varying > sorts of mindstates occur. At the start of meditating, the mind is > quite 'ordinary', and at other times the states are 'extraordinary'." > > Is there a Paali word you are translating as 'meditation'? -------------------------------------- Howard: Sometimes they use kamathana (sp?), sometime bhavana. Why? Have you looked into any of the Buddhist lineages? Any of the Theravadin lineages? Does Bhikkhu Bodhi speak of meditating? What Buddhists other than the followers of Khun Sujin ignore meditation? ------------------------------------- Do you> > equate 'mindstate' with 'citta'? Do these 'mindstates' occur > consecutively? Concurrently? -------------------------------------- Howard: I believe that they do NOT occur concurrently. Why? --------------------------------------- > > H: "...When it goes 'well', the mind calms down, clears up, and > observes far more finely. At times, when jhana is approached, these > factors intensify, and rapture and joy arise. When a jhana is entered > there is a sense of locked-in stability." > > What is 'the mind'? Is it an agent that 'observes'? > ----------------------------------------- Howard: No. 'Mind' is a term for all the mental operations. BTW, what is this? A grilling? Are we playing Twenty Questions? ----------------------------------------- How do you> > define 'jhaana'? How do one know when one is in it? What > experiences the 'sense of locked-in stability? What is the benefit in > pursuing this 'state'? ------------------------------------------- Howard: Look it up. ----------------------------------------- > > If you have the time I'd like to read your responses to these > questions. > > To be clear, I guess, I am convinced by the arguments here > within DSG regarding the nature of mental development (the old > 'party-line', eh). ------------------------------------------ Howard: That's fine, Scott. I think it is pseudo-Dhamma, but you have every right to adopt that view. What I don't like is your approach to me on this. ---------------------------------------- > > The arguments put forward here and elsewhere by 'meditators' have > failed to convince me on the grounds that too much conscious control > seems to always be emphasised; not to mention too much certainty that > these states one engages in are 'jhaana'. ------------------------------------------ Howard: One will never be persuaded of the value or the nature of meditation by arguments. One must see directly what it is for oneself, and then decide. But if you choose to depend instead merely on the testimony one or another "authority" that is your option. ---------------------------------------- > > Thanks for your consideration. > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > > > ======================== With metta, Howard #66545 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Dec 26, 2006 7:53 pm Subject: Re: Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 buddhatrue Hi Scott (and Howard), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Dear Howard, > To be clear, I guess, I am convinced by the arguments here > within DSG regarding the nature of mental development (the old > 'party-line', eh). > > The arguments put forward here and elsewhere by 'meditators' have > failed to convince me on the grounds that too much conscious control > seems to always be emphasised; not to mention too much certainty that > these states one engages in are 'jhaana'. > If you don't mind, I would like to address your general concern. As I see it, those who are opposed to meditation are so opposed because they just don't see the point in it. They want a simple, direct reason as to why one should meditate and they want to be able to see a simple, direct result from the practice of meditation. They want things to be simple or they don't trust the process. K. Sujin is very appealing to such people because she is a "one-trick pony" type of teacher. Her one trick is panna (wisdom). Her motto: JUST LISTEN TO THE DHAMMA AND PANNA WILL DO THE REST!! Well, that is a very appealing teaching to those who don't want complications. They want to be told just one thing to do and everything else will take care of itself. If only things were that simple!! Such people don't really appreciate the Buddha's teaching because he teaches a process. The Buddha teaches that one must observe sila, then purify the mind, and then panna will arise to do the rest of the work. These are too many steps, too complicated!! When such a person hears that jhana is a necessary prerequisite for vipassana (insight), they don't want to hear that- and because they don't want to hear that they refuse to understand. They will scour through all the suttas and commentaries, ignoring every reference to jhana, until they can find just one reference to insight without jhana. And then… BINGO! They are saved! Unfortunately, those references are found only in the commentaries who were written by others who didn't want to practice meditation. A direct answer to your concerns: meditation is necessary because it purifies the mind. The jhanas suppress the defilements enough so that the mind can see reality as it truly is. One mustn't even achieve full jhana before this purification effect can be observed in one's meditation. However, those who like things simple don't like this step of meditation because the purification isn't permanent. Once you stop meditating, the defilements come back again- unless they have been destroyed at the root. Those who want things simple don't want to keep up this meditation practice when there isn't a guarantee it will work on a permanent basis. The action of just listening to the dhamma alone will do nothing except increase your ability to discuss the dhamma. One must follow all eight steps of the Noble Eightfold Path if they wish to achieve liberation. There are no short-cuts. Metta, James #66546 From: "Joop" Date: Tue Dec 26, 2006 11:21 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Faults of Goenka's Meditation Method jwromeijn Hallo Melek, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, melek cilingir wrote: > > hi james, joop, bill > ... > joop: > (I have another problem with Goenka meditation, based on my > > anarchistic attitude: it's so well organised, it's a multinational in > > which everywhere in the world excactly the same system is teached, a > > la McDonald with everywere in the world exactly the same food > > offered. But's that not a fundamental points, other people don't have > > a problem with this) > > m: > that is really interesting. because most of the applicants in turkey (and greece) are alternative people who have anarchistic attitude. yes, the organization has very strict rules, but not about food. maybe it is because they are asked to serve very simple vegetarian food. i can tell foreigners find the food we served very different and delicious. I like food from turkey and greece (why did you talk about greece, you do retreats there?) I never have done Goenka retreats, only Mahasi style vipassana (and Zazen and metta-meditation) but as said I heard from friends who now join our weekly group. One of the points I read about Goenka-retreat (for example the side you mentioned www.vri.dhamma.org) is that's not part of a religion. For starters that's okay, our starting vipassana coursed buddhism is hardly mentioned too. But in fact, and for me, vipassana is a religious practice, a 'soteriological' one, directed to awakening, to enlightenment. I can imagine that in Turkey it has advantages to look at vipassana as a non-religious activity, especially for what you call 'alternative people'. I didn't know they existed (I'm from the netherlands, so from Europe but such information I never read about Turkey) But how about you? You want to study Pali, already have done, so for you vipassana is more than a 'technique', is that correct? ..... > metta > melek > > > ps: my posts seem to arrive hours after they are sent (next day, sometimes). am i the only one suffered from this? J: Maybe that's because you send and receive them as emails? I'm sending and looking from/at the website and never have problems (1 till 10 minutes after sending they appear). So if you don't, try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/messages Metta Joop #66547 From: "robmoult" Date: Wed Dec 27, 2006 12:54 am Subject: Re: If not pakatupanissaya robmoult Hi NIna, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Rob M, > pakatupanissaya, there are two terms here: pakata and pakati. > I quote from my conditions: > ===== Nina, I often refer to your "Conditions" with great appreciation, respect and admiration. ==== > Also asynchromous kamma-condition needs pakatupanissaya-condition in > order to be able to produce result. As you know, several conditions > are cooperating for the occurrence of dhammas, ===== Are you saying that when asynchronous kamma condition arises it always arises together with pakatupanissaya condition? Is that mentioned in the Patthana or the commentary? Metta, Rob M :-) #66548 From: "sukinder" Date: Wed Dec 27, 2006 8:41 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Cetasikas' study corner 613- Wholesome Deeds(j) sukinderpal Hi Howard, Sarah, all, Some comments from me if you don't mind. > >We have accumulated so much akusala, particularly avijja that even after > >hearing about presently arisen dhammas, there is still avijja almost all the > >time. The path by which satipatthana arises is via listening and considering > >over and over again about the different characteristics of dhammas so that > >at times some of their characteristics are known with any degree of > >understanding. One grows in familiarity with the different dhammas and > >gradually learn not to be fooled by them (conventionally speaking). But > >even if there is no sati of the level, one can at least appreciate that it does > >not happen precisely because there is not enough wisdom accumulated from > >hearing and considering, re: suttamaya panna and cintamaya panna which > >leads to bhavanamaya panna. ----------------------------------------- Howard: It is not my reading of the suttas that "The path by which satipatthana arises is via listening and considering over and over again about the different characteristics of dhammas so that at times some of their characteristics are known with any degree of understanding." The path by which satipatthana arises is multifaceted, multilevel, and involves various practices, and is most fully expressed in the Satipatthana Sutta that deals with direct observation and investigation, not repeated listening and considering. ------------------------------------------- S> The four factors to Stream Entry, namely, association with the superior person, hearing the correct dhamma, wise reflection and applying what has been heard, does show the importance of developing a firm intellectual understanding doesn't it? And this is what I am stressing here. It does not preclude development of other forms of kusala, namely, dana, sila, parami and samatha bhavana and it certainly does not ignore the fact that all this lead to/support the 'practice', satipatthana, vipassana bhavana. What it does in fact imply, is the need to gradually correct any misunderstanding that we all have, understandably, due to the accumulated ignorance and wrong view. And if you were to read further, you would see that these same four factors are the conditions that lead all the way to arahatta. So indeed this is *not* a 'one trick pony', but the *entirety* of the holy life. The problem as I have stated in the post to Bill, is on the part of those who do not appreciate this, namely those who jump at the idea of 'practice', the so called meditators. It is this same group who also 'theorize' about the relationship between Sila, Samadhi (jhana) and Panna in a way that all three become "things to do". Deliberately done, at the expense of any correct understanding in fact, that there are only dhammas performing their individual functions such that even the very thought and desire about 'doing' is just that, a dhamma conditioned to arise and fallen away in the moment. Is there an understanding associated with this idea to "do"? If so, what is the understanding? Upon a little reflection, I think we will come to see that we are indeed living, acting and reacting in an ocean of concepts. Us "starting from where we are" is one predominantly of ignorance and this precisely, of the 4NT. And having developed the habit of making sense of experiences purely via concepts, and wrong ones (those conditioned by wrong view) at that, the beginning steps must necessarily involve a process of correcting this at the conceptual level, no? How can one be expected to have any real direct experience while still being so much influenced by wrong view and all the time making wrong inferences based on that? In other words, "where we are" is in terms of a correct/incorrect intellectual understanding of the way things are. And this means that even here there is so much need for increased precision and correction, not to talk about directly knowing any dhamma, we are like the blind men at this level. And like blind men, we can't just will ourselves to see. ===================================== > ..... > S: Nicely said. It also reminded me that I had meant to make a minor > correction in something I said with regard to suttamaya panna and > cintamaya panna. As you say, they refre to 'wisdom accumulated from > hearing and considering.' > ..... > >Another thing about 'meditation techniques': The Buddha for an instant, > >hesitated to teach the Dhamma and this was because he understood it to > >be very profound. A kind of understanding, completely different from every > >other teaching ever. He did however do so, because he saw that there were > >indeed some people who had accumulated the wisdom to comprehend it and > >could likewise gain liberation. If in fact what he taught could be reduced to > >some "technique", do you think he would have hesitated at first?! I don't think so. ------------------------------------------ Howard: Will I have "but little dust in my eyes" if only I adhere to the listen-and-consider, one-trick-pony school of Dhamma practice? This listen-and-consider business, while clearly essential, is NOT the whole of Dhamma practice, but only the first step, being the means for understanding what the practice is, and getting a glimpse of what that practice may lead to. The Buddha's body of teaching is the map. The practice requires hitting the road. S> Yes the practice is 'different' from intellectual understanding and without the former there is no reaching the goal, ever. However I don't believe that what most of the Buddhist world calls 'practice' is what it is, and this is due to not having experienced the first stage of the development to begin with, namely "pariyatti" as in 'pariyatti --> patipatti --> pativedha'. And perhaps, in spite of having acknowledged the importance of the concept, it is due to not really understanding their relationship? Is there a 'map' to be followed by 'someone'? Or is it about different levels of 'understanding' and its own development without any idea of 'implementation' by someone? Your 'one-trick-pony' idea may in fact be due to your own misunderstanding of these three levels of wisdom? ======================================== > S: Yes, I don't think there's anything deep, profound and 'revolutionary' > in any technique either. ------------------------------------------- Howard: There is the entire multifaceted practice, integrated into ones life. As one proceeds, the practice and ones life become one and the same. No, there is no one "technique" that is a panacea. And listening and considering is no panacea. Dhamma practice is complex and significant, and, yes, subtle. S> My point was that were the Dhamma so simple such that one could reduce it to 'following meditation instruction' after hearing some theory, the Buddha would not have hesitated. Why would he, if in the end all he needed to do was to have meditation centers in which all he needed was to ask people to listen and follow? Besides you would have found many suttas mentioning such an idea wouldn't you? But is there? More likely this idea of retreats etc. grew out in recent history, from increased misunderstanding of Dhamma, catering to 'tanha' for results. I've got a head cold, so this is probably not in accordance with my initial reaction to your post. But I look forward to your response and see if anything more can be said. Metta, Sukin. #66549 From: "melekcilingir" Date: Wed Dec 27, 2006 3:54 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Faults of Goenka's Meditation Method melekcilingir hi joop, many thanks for the advise, i am sending from the website now. j: One of the points I read about Goenka-retreat (for example the side you mentioned www.vri.dhamma. org) is that's not part of a religion. m: sorry, i did not get it. you mean that site is not part of a religion? j: For starters that's okay, our starting vipassana coursed buddhism is hardly mentioned too. But in fact, and for me, vipassana is a religious practice, a 'soteriological' one, directed to awakening, to enlightenment. m: in what way? the way it is taught or you also find erroneous interpretations in the technique? j: I can imagine that in Turkey it has advantages to look at vipassana as a non-religious activity m: that is exactly what i thought when i was sitting a course in india. i felt i was in mosque surrounded by people praying. (i have only islamic associations, as it is the only religion i know. i had to search the meaning of the word "soteriology" for example) yet, i did not let it be a hindrance for me and ignored the environment. i met vipassana 3 years ago, it was the first course in turkey. but my regular practice (sila and 2 hours daily sittings recommended) is about 2 years. it was just a technique at the beginning, i was totaly ignorant (literally!) about the meditation or anything about eastern view/philosophy. my first course was amazingly wonderful, helped me a lot. but the real change came one year later, after maintaining my daily practices regularly. i started looking at it as the buddha's teaching rather than a technique. that is why i want to study pali (hope have time for that next year). j: 'alternative people'. I didn't know they existed (I'm from the netherlands, so from Europe but such information I never read about Turkey) m: yes, very few though. metta melek #66550 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Dec 27, 2006 4:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 scottduncan2 Dear Howard, I'm sorry Howard. If you wish to pass this by, please do. I'm not into being offensive. I think I'm asking serious questions. I'll proceed as if all is well. S: "What is it that 'meditates' then?" Howard: "First of all, don't look for a doer. The doing is enough! Presuming a doer is a form of atta-belief. Secondly, as I said in my post, meditation is a conventional activity (or, better said, many activities), and it involves a multitude of mindstates." Here I was asking you whether you meant 'mindstate' instead of 'citta', since it seemed you understood the function of citta or an accompanying mental state to imply a doer. I think it is a question of conventional language usage to say that 'citta' meditates. I've understood the whole notion of 'own nature' to simply mean a most essential description of function only with no implication of a 'doer'. I think I see it as you do, that is that 'presuming a doer is a form of atta belief'. Here, when you say 'doing is enough' in reference to 'meditation' I'm not sure what you mean. Do you mean that the sitting and the rest are done without doer? Doesn't one sit in order to make something happen? S: "What is a 'mindstate'? What, then, is jhaana?" Howard: "Look it up." Okay, here, when you say 'there is not a unique mindstate associated with meditating' I'm afraid you lose me. I meant to ask you whether 'jhaana' is an ordinary 'mindstate' or to suggest that I thought jhaana was the quitessential 'meditative mindstate' that one is advocated to seek by 'meditators'. I had thought it was otherwise, that is I had thought 'jhaana' as described in the texts is not 'ordinary' and I was equating 'meditation' with a pursuit of jhaana. This is just confusion on my part in relation to your statement. S: "Is there a Paali word you are translating as 'meditation'?" Howard: "Sometimes they use kamathana (sp?), sometime bhavana..." Bhaavaana I recognise - 'mental development'. I'm not sure about 'kamathana'. In the most sophomoric way I've pieced it together and come up with 'kama.thaana' and the compound seems to do with a process of development of a condition or state. I don't know for sure. Is the word related to 'iriya-patha' and to comportment and postures somehow? S: "Do you equate 'mindstate' with 'citta'? Do these 'mindstates' occur consecutively? Concurrently?" Howard: "I believe that they do NOT occur concurrently. Why?" Here I was trying to clarify 'mindstates' further. You follow the convention of one moment of consciousness at a time, then. S: "What is 'the mind'? Is it an agent that 'observes'?" Howard: "No. 'Mind' is a term for all the mental operations..." So here do you refer to the momentary state of consciousness when you say 'the mind calms down'? Are these 'citta' with concomitant cetasikas or do you mean something different? In other words, I'm familiar with the sort of succession of mental factors in combination as described in the texts. I guess I'm still trying to see which terms you are using. S: "How do you define 'jhaana'? How do one know when one is in it? What experiences the 'sense of locked-in stability? What is the benefit in pursuing this 'state'?" Howard: "Look it up." Okay, here I was asking some serious questions. If 'meditation' as you are describing it, and putting forward vigourously as being an important alternative to DSG party line, is as you say, then this would be important. I've not been satisfied with the explanations of others in the past, but they have had, I've discerned, other agendas. You, on the other hand, seem to have no such other agendas (save being into it yourself) and so I was just hoping to get your response. Howard: "One will never be persuaded of the value or the nature of meditation by arguments. One must see directly what it is for oneself, and then decide. But if you choose to depend instead merely on the testimony one or another 'authority' that is your option." This is what I am wondering. Why is it important to put the time into 'meditation' which pursues the jhaanas - samtha-bhaavaana? How would this improve on 'meditation' which relates to pa~n~na - vipassanaa-bhaavaana? I'm asking as a beginner. I think these are fair questions. Sincerely, Scott. #66551 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Dec 27, 2006 12:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasikas' study corner 613- Wholesome Deeds(j) upasaka_howard Hi, Sukin (and Sarah) - In a message dated 12/27/06 4:41:03 AM Eastern Standard Time, sukinder@... writes: > Hi Howard, Sarah, all, > > > > Some comments from me if you don't mind. -------------------------------------------- Howard: Of course! I welcome your comments. It is most appropriate that you express your view, and I appreciate your kind introduction. :-) --------------------------------------------- > > >>We have accumulated so much akusala, particularly avijja that even after > >>hearing about presently arisen dhammas, there is still avijja almost all > the > >>time. The path by which satipatthana arises is via listening and > considering > >>over and over again about the different characteristics of dhammas so > that > >>at times some of their characteristics are known with any degree of > >>understanding. One grows in familiarity with the different dhammas and > >>gradually learn not to be fooled by them (conventionally speaking). But > >>even if there is no sati of the level, one can at least appreciate that > it does > >>not happen precisely because there is not enough wisdom accumulated from > >>hearing and considering, re: suttamaya panna and cintamaya panna which > >>leads to bhavanamaya panna. > ----------------------------------------- > Howard: > It is not my reading of the suttas that "The path by which > satipatthana arises is via listening and considering over and over again > about the > different characteristics of dhammas so that at times some of their > characteristics > are known with any degree of > understanding." The path by which satipatthana arises is multifaceted, > multilevel, and involves various practices, and is most fully expressed in > the > Satipatthana Sutta that deals with direct observation and investigation, not > > repeated listening and considering. > ------------------------------------------- > > S> The four factors to Stream Entry, namely, association with the superior > person, hearing the correct dhamma, wise reflection and applying what has > been heard, does show the importance of developing a firm intellectual > understanding doesn't it? And this is what I am stressing here. It does not > preclude development of other forms of kusala, namely, dana, sila, parami > and samatha bhavana and it certainly does not ignore the fact that all this > lead to/support the 'practice', satipatthana, vipassana bhavana. What it > does in fact imply, is the need to gradually correct any misunderstanding > that we all have, understandably, due to the accumulated ignorance and wrong > view. And if you were to read further, you would see that these same four > factors are the conditions that lead all the way to arahatta. So indeed this > is *not* a 'one trick pony', but the *entirety* of the holy life. ----------------------------------------- Howard: I have no objection in the slightest to anything you wrote here. I agree completely. You have included elements of practice that I value - you have, happily, not ignored the fourth element, application, and there is nothing that you included that doesn't belong. Moreover, listening and wise reflection *do* belong at the beginning. If they only were given, I *would* call it a "one-trick pony," but that extreme is not gone to here. So, on the basis of what I see *here*, there is no obvious disparity between our perspectives. ----------------------------------------- > > > > The problem as I have stated in the post to Bill, is on the part of those > who do not appreciate this, namely those who jump at the idea of 'practice', > the so called meditators. It is this same group who also 'theorize' about > the relationship between Sila, Samadhi (jhana) and Panna in a way that all > three become "things to do". Deliberately done, at the expense of any > correct understanding in fact, that there are only dhammas performing their > individual functions such that even the very thought and desire about > 'doing' is just that, a dhamma conditioned to arise and fallen away in the > moment. Is there an understanding associated with this idea to "do"? If so, > what is the understanding? > > > > Upon a little reflection, I think we will come to see that we are indeed > living, acting and reacting in an ocean of concepts. Us "starting from where > we are" is one predominantly of ignorance and this precisely, of the 4NT. > And having developed the habit of making sense of experiences purely via > concepts, and wrong ones (those conditioned by wrong view) at that, the > beginning steps must necessarily involve a process of correcting this at the > conceptual level, no? How can one be expected to have any real direct > experience while still being so much influenced by wrong view and all the > time making wrong inferences based on that? In other words, "where we are" > is in terms of a correct/incorrect intellectual understanding of the way > things are. And this means that even here there is so much need for > increased precision and correction, not to talk about directly knowing any > dhamma, we are like the blind men at this level. And like blind men, we > can't just will ourselves to see. ---------------------------------- Howard: I have no comment to make on the foregoing. -------------------------------- > > ===================================== > >..... > >S: Nicely said. It also reminded me that I had meant to make a minor > >correction in something I said with regard to suttamaya panna and > >cintamaya panna. As you say, they refre to 'wisdom accumulated from > >hearing and considering.' > >..... > >>Another thing about 'meditation techniques': The Buddha for an instant, > >>hesitated to teach the Dhamma and this was because he understood it to > >>be very profound. A kind of understanding, completely different from > every > >>other teaching ever. He did however do so, because he saw that there were > >>indeed some people who had accumulated the wisdom to comprehend it and > >>could likewise gain liberation. If in fact what he taught could be > reduced to > >>some "technique", do you think he would have hesitated at first?! I don't > think so. > ------------------------------------------ > Howard: > Will I have "but little dust in my eyes" if only I adhere to the > listen-and-consider, one-trick-pony school of Dhamma practice? This > listen-and-consider business, while clearly essential, is NOT the whole of > Dhamma practice, > but only the first step, being the means for understanding what the practice > > is, and getting a glimpse of what that practice may lead to. The Buddha's > body > of teaching is the map. The practice requires hitting the road. > > > > S> Yes the practice is 'different' from intellectual understanding and > without the former there is no reaching the goal, ever. However I don't > believe that what most of the Buddhist world calls 'practice' is what it is, > and this is due to not having experienced the first stage of the development > to begin with, namely "pariyatti" as in 'pariyatti --> patipatti --> > pativedha'. And perhaps, in spite of having acknowledged the importance of > the concept, it is due to not really understanding their relationship? Is > there a 'map' to be followed by 'someone'? Or is it about different levels > of 'understanding' and its own development without any idea of > 'implementation' by someone? Your 'one-trick-pony' idea may in fact be due > to your own misunderstanding of these three levels of wisdom? ---------------------------------------------- Howard: The idea of not putting into practice the Dhamma until it has been studied like a scholar for ages is an error, in my opinion - a grave error. ---------------------------------------------- > > ======================================== > > >S: Yes, I don't think there's anything deep, profound and 'revolutionary' > >in any technique either. > ------------------------------------------- > Howard: > There is the entire multifaceted practice, integrated into ones life. > As one proceeds, the practice and ones life become one and the same. No, > there > is no one "technique" that is a panacea. And listening and considering is no > > panacea. Dhamma practice is complex and significant, and, yes, subtle. > > > > S> My point was that were the Dhamma so simple such that one could reduce it > to 'following meditation instruction' after hearing some theory, the Buddha > would not have hesitated. Why would he, if in the end all he needed to do > was to have meditation centers in which all he needed was to ask people to > listen and follow? Besides you would have found many suttas mentioning such > an idea wouldn't you? But is there? More likely this idea of retreats etc. > grew out in recent history, from increased misunderstanding of Dhamma, > catering to 'tanha' for results. ----------------------------------------- Howard: Going on rereats has come to serve as a layperson's approximation to elements of the bhikkhu/bhikkhuni life. Retreats have benefited me in the past, but I haven't attended one for quite a while. I practice on my own, and I meditate in seclusion. I find this solitary, internal practice to be best for me. At least that has been the case for a good while now. As for results, most are invisible; I train for cultivating the mind - it is a gradual practice, and I'm patient. ---------------------------------------- > > I've got a head cold, so this is probably not in accordance with my initial > reaction to your post. But I look forward to your response and see if > anything more can be said. ---------------------------------------- Howard: I appreciate your writing back, and I appreciate your tone. --------------------------------------- > > > > Metta, > > Sukin. > > ===================== With metta, Howard #66552 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Dec 27, 2006 5:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 buddhatrue Hi Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Dear Howard, > > I'm sorry Howard. If you wish to pass this by, please do. I'm not > into being offensive. I think I'm asking serious questions. I'll > proceed as if all is well. I'm asking as a beginner. I think these are > fair questions. With all due respect, I don't think that these are fair questions. It isn't Howard's responsibility to explain all of Buddhism to you. You need to do some study on your own to learn the basics and then you could ask specific questions- not general, background questions. Here are the questions you ask: What is meditation? What is a mindstate? What is a citta? What is jhana? What is the mind? How does one know the different jhanas? What is one-pointed concentration ("locked-in stability)? What is the benefit of jhana? OH BROTHER!! Thank goodness you didn't ask me these questions; I would have ripped you a new one! ;-)) (just kidding). Do a google search on: jhana and citta….and READ! Find out for yourself and then you will understand what Howard had to say. Better yet, start reading the Buddha's suttas at: www.accesstoinsight.org and don't stop until you are finished! Metta, James #66553 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Dec 27, 2006 5:30 am Subject: Re: Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 scottduncan2 Dear James, Thanks for your response: J: If you don't mind, I would like to address your general concern. As I see it, those who are opposed to meditation are so opposed because they just don't see the point in it. They want a simple, direct reason as to why one should meditate and they want to be able to see a simple, direct result from the practice of meditation. They want things to be simple or they don't trust the process." As with Howard, I guess I would like to know how you are using the term 'meditation'. For instance, I have come to understand that this is the english word for 'bhaavaana' and bhaavaana is 'mental development'. I am wondering in particular about the pursuit of jhaana - samatha-bhaavaana. I am wanting to know why it is so important. Contrary to the above (I think), and given the way in which I understand anatta, I don't think that 'looking for a result' is right view. To the point, how is sitting for the purpose of experiencing jhaana not 'looking for a result'? The Buddha taught jhaana, clearly. I don't doubt that jhaana is a conditioned reality. I wonder why one should pursue it and if it is possible to know if it is 'really' jhaana. Isn't it totally possible for one to be mistaken about a state and think it is jhaana (much in the same way it was that some used to mistake jhaana for an experience of nibbaana)? J: "K. Sujin is very appealing to such people because she is a "one-trick pony" type of teacher...that is a very appealing teaching to those who don't want complications. They want to be told just one thing to do and everything else will take care of itself. If only things were that simple!!" Although I think it is correct, I personally hate being told that I can't make things happen. This is what I hear when I listen to Kh. Sujin. Am I missing something when I see in the modern-day 'instructions' to 'meditate' a how-to sort of thing which is equally subject to criticism due to misunderstanding anatta? The 'meditator' thinks she or he can simply sit and go through the steps and voila - at will. Kh. Sujin doesn't need my support, so I won't bother. Is it Dhamma? I think this is the question. I don't trust modern-day commentators. The influence of pop-psychology and the wish for the quick fix is an epidemic. Why should I trust any other jhaana proponent over Kh. Sujin, for example. There's enought quick-fix language to go 'round. No. Is it Dhamma? J: "A direct answer to your concerns: meditation is necessary because it purifies the mind. The jhanas suppress the defilements enough so that the mind can see reality as it truly is. One mustn't even achieve full jhana before this purification effect can be observed in one's meditation. However, those who like things simple don't like this step of meditation because the purification isn't permanent. Once you stop meditating, the defilements come back again- unless they have been destroyed at the root. Those who want things simple don't want to keep up this meditation practice when there isn't a guarantee it will work on a permanent basis." How are these defilements 'destroyed at the root'? What does this? What is 'mind' that is purified? Is it not the moment of consciousness? How does one know it is 'jhaana', or 'full jhaana' or 'not full-jhaana'? Why should ancient commentators be ignored in favour of modern-day commentators? For instance, Buddhaghosa wrote at length about the jhaanas. Can we do this today? How do we know? I suppose we'll never resolve this old debate of samatha versus vipassanaa, eh? Sincerely, Scott. #66554 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Dec 27, 2006 5:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 scottduncan2 Hey James, We passed in the night, as it were. See my response to your response. J: "...OH BROTHER!! Thank goodness you didn't ask me these questions; I would have ripped you a new one! ;-)) (just kidding)." But man would that be a great way to rid one's self of defilements - twice as fast! Sincerely, Scott. #66555 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Dec 27, 2006 1:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 upasaka_howard Hi, Scott - In a message dated 12/27/06 7:40:05 AM Eastern Standard Time, scduncan@... writes: > Dear Howard, > > I'm sorry Howard. If you wish to pass this by, please do. I'm not > into being offensive. I think I'm asking serious questions. I'll > proceed as if all is well. --------------------------------------- Howard: I felt as if you were attempting to put me through an interrogation. That is not pleasant. To the extent that it seems that you are not looking to score points, I'll answer what I can. But, as I said, I am not a meditation scholar. I meditate, following the Buddha's teaching on meditation as best I can, and I can report of some of what I experience in the process. Actually, there is not much more for me to say than I've already said. I see little point in relating "dramatic" mediation experiences. As far as I'm concerned, it is an element of practice aimed at cultivating the mind. ------------------------------------- > > S: "What is it that 'meditates' then?" > > Howard: "First of all, don't look for a doer. The doing is enough! > Presuming a doer is a form of atta-belief. Secondly, as I said in my > post, meditation is a conventional activity (or, better said, many > activities), and it involves a multitude of mindstates." > > Here I was asking you whether you meant 'mindstate' instead of > 'citta', since it seemed you understood the function of citta or an > accompanying mental state to imply a doer. > -------------------------------------- Howard: The packet notion of cittas doesn't enchant me. At any point in time, there is awareness of some sense-door object, and that operation of consciousness is supported by various other mental operations and activities. That entire group of operations and activities in effect is what I mean by a mindstate. I think in terms of activities in effect, not things that are acting. ------------------------------------- I think it is a question> > of conventional language usage to say that 'citta' meditates. I've > understood the whole notion of 'own nature' to simply mean a most > essential description of function only with no implication of a > 'doer'. I think I see it as you do, that is that 'presuming a doer is > a form of atta belief'. Here, when you say 'doing is enough' in > reference to 'meditation' I'm not sure what you mean. Do you mean > that the sitting and the rest are done without doer? Doesn't one sit > in order to make something happen? --------------------------------------- Howard: When beginning to meditate, a degree of "external" stillness is needed - even in walking meditation. That external stillness helps foster an internal stilling. An initial concentrating of attention on a single category of sensory inputs, say the elements of the breath, further supports a growing calm, ease, and "letting go", as well as an increase in clarity. At a certain point, and this is determined by experience, the scope of what is "looked at" gradually and steadily expands, and eventually one is examining whatever arises, with energy expended only in "staying present", which amounts to not getting swept away in thought, in excitement, or in lethargic states. ------------------------------------------ > > S: "What is a 'mindstate'? What, then, is jhaana?" > > Howard: "Look it up." > > Okay, here, when you say 'there is not a unique mindstate associated > with meditating' I'm afraid you lose me. I meant to ask you whether > 'jhaana' is an ordinary 'mindstate' or to suggest that I thought > jhaana was the quitessential 'meditative mindstate' that one is > advocated to seek by 'meditators'. I had thought it was otherwise, > that is I had thought 'jhaana' as described in the texts is not > 'ordinary' and I was equating 'meditation' with a pursuit of jhaana. > This is just confusion on my part in relation to your statement. ----------------------------------------- Howard: Many "sittings", most probably, fall short of jhana. In any case, even when jhana is entered, unless one is rather much of a jhana master, as I believe a few here are [not me], meditation is a process (my sittings are 45-minute sittings) that might be pictured as consisting of one or several waves, with the crests representing jhanic or near-jhanic periods, and the troughs periods of ordinary mentality. Also, it does seem to me that not all "jhanas" are the same. Some folks' jhanas are entirely absorptive, with no volition exercisable, but my meditative states have always permitted exercise of volition. Even when I was - once - apparently shuffling between 2nd & 5th jhana, an amazing though not especially fruitful event (except for showing that "there are more things in heaven and earth ..."), exercise of volition was possible. If some will say that this could not have been jhana, then I say, "Ok, whatever!" ;-) ------------------------------------------------- > > > S: "Is there a Paali word you are translating as 'meditation'?" > > Howard: "Sometimes they use kamathana (sp?), sometime bhavana..." > > Bhaavaana I recognise - 'mental development'. I'm not sure about > 'kamathana'. In the most sophomoric way I've pieced it together and > come up with 'kama.thaana' and the compound seems to do with a process > of development of a condition or state. I don't know for sure. Is > the word related to 'iriya-patha' and to comportment and postures somehow? ------------------------------------------- Howard: Sorry, I haven't a clue. ------------------------------------------ > > S: "Do you equate 'mindstate' with 'citta'? Do these 'mindstates' > occur consecutively? Concurrently?" > > Howard: "I believe that they do NOT occur concurrently. Why?" > > Here I was trying to clarify 'mindstates' further. You follow the > convention of one moment of consciousness at a time, then. ------------------------------------------- Howard: I do believe there is but one object at a time. ------------------------------------------- > > S: "What is 'the mind'? Is it an agent that 'observes'?" > > Howard: "No. 'Mind' is a term for all the mental operations..." > > So here do you refer to the momentary state of consciousness when you > say 'the mind calms down'? > --------------------------------------- Howard: No. Calming down is a process extending over a stream of mindstates. ---------------------------------------- Are these 'citta' with concomitant> > cetasikas or do you mean something different? In other words, I'm > familiar with the sort of succession of mental factors in combination > as described in the texts. I guess I'm still trying to see which > terms you are using. ----------------------------------------- Howard: I explained earlier in this post what I mean by mindstate. So, I assume you understand my usage now. ----------------------------------------- > > S: "How do you define 'jhaana'? How do one know when one is in it? > What experiences the 'sense of locked-in stability? What is the > benefit in pursuing this 'state'?" > > Howard: "Look it up." > > Okay, here I was asking some serious questions. ----------------------------------------- Howard: I can't convey my experince to you. But the Buddha has described it again and again, and there are loads of books and articles. ------------------------------------------ > > If 'meditation' as you are describing it, and putting forward > vigourously as being an important alternative to DSG party line, is as > you say, then this would be important. I've not been satisfied with > the explanations of others in the past, but they have had, I've > discerned, other agendas. You, on the other hand, seem to have no > such other agendas (save being into it yourself) and so I was just > hoping to get your response. ---------------------------------------- Howard: What I call jhana is a "locked-in"/stable state (or sequence of states) characterized by heightened calm, clarity, concentration, and mindfulness. The features that distinguish the various jhanas are laid out for your inspection in many places. In the first jhana, there is still a (mildly willful) two-fold application of attention to the central meditation subject, vitaka and vicara. When the meditating suddenly shifts, and proceeds "on its own" without that effort of attention, that seems to be the entry to the second jhana. The Buddha's descriptions related on ATI are clear, I think. ----------------------------------------- > > Howard: "One will never be persuaded of the value or the nature of > meditation by arguments. One must see directly what it is for oneself, > and then decide. But if you choose to depend instead merely on the > testimony one or another 'authority' that is your option." > > This is what I am wondering. Why is it important to put the time into > 'meditation' which pursues the jhaanas - samtha-bhaavaana? How would > this improve on 'meditation' which relates to pa~n~na - > vipassanaa-bhaavaana? I'm asking as a beginner. I think these are > fair questions. ----------------------------------------- Howard: It is the right concentration aspect of the path. It cultivates the mind. Especially if one can attain the 4th jhana. The mind is made "malleable" and a suitable instrument for investigation of dhammas. The Buddha kindly laid this all out for us. --------------------------------------- > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > > ====================== I had no problem responding to this post, Scott. Your tone was quite different from before. Again, if meditataing is not your cup of tea, that's fine, though I do think it is best not to prejudge without testing the waters for oneself. With metta, Howard #66556 From: "Joop" Date: Wed Dec 27, 2006 6:00 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Faults of Goenka's Meditation Method jwromeijn Dear Melek, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "melekcilingir" wrote: > > hi joop, > > many thanks for the advise, i am sending from the website now. > j: I'm glad to hear Good to read that you started looking at vipassana-meditation as the Buddha's teaching rather than a technique, after some time. That 'proves' that there is more than one way (one means) to come to the Dhamma, the teachings of the Buddha; vipassana (à la Goenka) is one of them. With me (five years ago) the sequence was another one: by reading books about philosophy, mysticism, eastern wisdom etc. I recognised at one moment at myself in a intellectual way: in fact I am a buddhist. And then I wanted to practice that buddhism, and doing meditation was an aspect (a very important one) of that. So it did not start with meditation; doing meditation was a result (I do not say that is a better sequence!) For some years I called myself a Theravadin, now I more and more take Mahaya aspects in my 'belief' system joop (yesterday) j: One of the points I read about Goenka-retreat (for example the side (of course: 'site') you mentioned www.vri.dhamma. org) is that's not part of a religion. melek: sorry, i did not get it. you mean that site is not part of a religion? joop: I meant statements (in: "Introduction to the Technique) like: "The entire path (Dhamma) is a universal remedy for universal problems and has nothing to do with any organized religion or sectarianism. For this reason, it can be freely practiced by everyone, at any time, in any place, without conflict due to race, community or religion, and will prove equally beneficial to one and all." I have the same problems with this idea as I have with the use of parts of vipassana (mindfulnes) in psychotherapy. What's against a "organised religion"? To me Theravada as one of the buddhist traditions is a religion, and vipassana is - to me - an aspect of that religion. (And Theravada=pali and Pali=Theravada) But I also have seen in the same Goenka-text stated, to my pleasure: "Vipassana meditation aims at the highest spiritual goals of total liberation and full enlightenment. Its purpose is never simply to cure physical disease." joop (yesterday) : For starters that's okay, our starting vipassana coursed (a typo, I wanted to type 'courses') buddhism is hardly mentioned too. But in fact, and for me, vipassana is a religious practice, a 'soteriological' one, directed to awakening, to enlightenment. melek: in what way? the way it is taught or you also find erroneous interpretations in the technique? joop: I'm not trying to criticise the Goenka technique, I don't know enough of it; I only think I don't feel at home so much in it as I feel at home in the vipassana à la Mahasi. One question that perhaps has to do with your discussion with James and others this week I saw in another messages of you "vedana indicates sensations on the body." Perhaps it's strange but I have no opinion on what 'vedana' is. What is important to me is that in the Satpatthana Sutta the Buddha talked about FOUR aspects on mediation: on the body, on feelings, on the mind, and on 'mental objects' (hindrances, aggregates, senses, awakening factors and the Four Noble Truths) In vipassana à la Mahasi whatever arises in me, I (try to) be mindful to this phenomena : see it's arising and falling away. That's the 'standard' meditation, but there are also exercises in which one only tries to pay attention to ONE of these four. So my question, perhaps a silly one, I'm only curious: Is in vipassana à la Goenka in the body scan or body sweep only one of the exercises? And is in this way paying attention to feelings, mind and mental objects - systematically or whenever they appear - also practiced? Another question: is it possible to be a buddhist (whatever that is) in Turkey? Metta Joop #66557 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Dec 27, 2006 6:13 am Subject: Re: Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 buddhatrue Hi Scott, Thank you for your post. Here, you raise a lot of questions and concerns, but I'm not sure if you really want to know or if you just want to argue. I will answer in the spirit that you really want to know. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Dear James, > > Thanks for your response: > As with Howard, I guess I would like to know how you are using the > term 'meditation'. James: How do you think I am using it? You know, this is really a stupid question. You know how I am using the term. Even a five-year- old knows what meditation looks like. You sit cross-legged, hands in your lap, with your eyes closed. You focus your mind on a meditation subject. The Vism. describes 40 such subjects for different temperments of people. For instance, I have come to understand that this > is the english word for 'bhaavaana' and bhaavaana is 'mental > development'. James: This is just a semantic game that Sarah and Jon are extremely fond of. They love to define meditation is such a way as to make it disappear. Frankly, I don't care how you define it. It is meditation, samadhi, bhaavaana, samatha, etc., etc., etc. A rose is a rose is a rose. I am wondering in particular about the pursuit of > jhaana - samatha-bhaavaana. I am wanting to know why it is so important. James: Hello! I already told you! It is important because it clears the mind of defilements. When the mind is cleared of defilements it can more clearly see reality. (Now, this is the last time I am going to explain that!) > > Contrary to the above (I think), and given the way in which I > understand anatta, I don't think that 'looking for a result' is right > view. James: Well, what in the heck do you think is the point of Buddhism? For nothing to change?? The Third Noble Truth states that there is a way to end suffering and escape samsara....that is looking for a result. To the point, how is sitting for the purpose of experiencing > jhaana not 'looking for a result'? The Buddha taught jhaana, clearly. > I don't doubt that jhaana is a conditioned reality. I wonder why one > should pursue it and if it is possible to know if it is 'really' > jhaana. James: If you know that the Buddha taught jhana, why are you questioning its value or purpose? You really aren't making any sense. Isn't it totally possible for one to be mistaken about a > state and think it is jhaana (much in the same way it was that some > used to mistake jhaana for an experience of nibbaana)? James: Sure it is. What's your point? Are you suggesting that no one should try to cultivate jhana because they might get it wrong? Again, that doesn't make any sense. > Although I think it is correct, I personally hate being told that I > can't make things happen. This is what I hear when I listen to Kh. > Sujin. Am I missing something when I see in the modern-day > 'instructions' to 'meditate' a how-to sort of thing which is equally > subject to criticism due to misunderstanding anatta? James: Yes, you are missing something. Anatta doesn't mean that one shouldn't meditate. KS is misunderstanding the teaching of anatta. The 'meditator' > thinks she or he can simply sit and go through the steps and voila - > at will. James: Meditators don't believe that they can make insight arise at will (or at least they shouldn't). > > Kh. Sujin doesn't need my support, so I won't bother. Is it Dhamma? > I think this is the question. I don't trust modern-day commentators. > The influence of pop-psychology and the wish for the quick fix is an > epidemic. Why should I trust any other jhaana proponent over Kh. > Sujin, for example. There's enought quick-fix language to go 'round. > No. Is it Dhamma? James: What in the devil are you rambling about? ;-)) The Buddha taught jhana, it is a vital part of the Noble Eightfold Path. There is nothing New Age, pop-psychology, or self-help about jhana. > > > How are these defilements 'destroyed at the root'? James: Craving is destroyed which destroys the defilements. What does this? James: Wisdom (panna), vipassana (insight). > What is 'mind' that is purified? James: Consciousness. Is it not the moment of > consciousness? James: Yes, consciousness is purified. How does one know it is 'jhaana', or 'full jhaana' or > 'not full-jhaana'? James: The Buddha described the various attributes of the jhanas, but he used metaphors and may not suit your taste for exactness. Scott, you just have to find out for yourself. Why should ancient commentators be ignored in > favour of modern-day commentators? James: I believe all commentators should be ignored. Read the original suttas for yourself. For instance, Buddhaghosa wrote at > length about the jhaanas. Can we do this today? How do we know? James: I don't understand the point of this question. > > I suppose we'll never resolve this old debate of samatha versus > vipassanaa, eh? James: It is an artifical issue brought about by wrong view. Samatha is necessary for vipassana, they do not contradict each other and one can't pick one over the other, so there is no 'versus'. > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > Metta, James #66558 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Dec 27, 2006 8:24 am Subject: Re: Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 scottduncan2 Dear James, Thanks. S: "As with Howard, I guess I would like to know how you are using the term 'meditation'." James: "How do you think I am using it? You know, this is really a stupid question. You know how I am using the term. Even a five-year- old knows what meditation looks like. You sit cross-legged, hands in your lap, with your eyes closed. You focus your mind on a meditation subject. The Vism. describes 40 such subjects for different temperments of people." I don't think this is a stupid question. Is it as easy as you suggest? What 'meditation looks like' is a superficial notion (although I think you are employing a literary device here). I've known (and loved) five year old children but would consider them poor sources of information regarding the finer points of 'meditation'. Why the constant focus on sitting a certain way? How is this not stereotypic? S: "I am wondering in particular about the pursuit of jhaana - samatha-bhaavaana. I am wanting to know why it is so important." James: "Hello! I already told you! It is important because it clears the mind of defilements. When the mind is cleared of defilements it can more clearly see reality. (Now, this is the last time I am going to explain that!)" Please don't be impatient with me. You may have 'told' me but you in no way 'explained' much, which is fine. This is why I think precise terms are important. Below you clarify that by 'mind' you mean 'consciousness'. Do you mean 'vi~n~naana', 'citta', 'mano' - in which sense do you mean this? Below, as well, you note that pa~n~na and vipassanaa are the mental factors whose function it is to 'destroy defilements'. Cultivating jhaana temporarily suppresses defilements, I think, and then, if I'm following you, there is a chance for pa~n~na and vipassanaa to arise. Can one make this happen? I realise this is 'party-line' but you only assert the opposite. S: "Contrary to the above (I think), and given the way in which I understand anatta, I don't think that 'looking for a result' is right view." James: "Well, what in the heck do you think is the point of Buddhism? For nothing to change?? The Third Noble Truth states that there is a way to end suffering and escape samsara....that is looking for a result." Being taught that there is a way to end suffering and escape samsaara is not at all being taught that one finds it by looking for a result. I have total faith that change can happen. This is not at all the question I have. I'm wondering why this huge focus on 'sitting meditation' as if it the only way to do things. S: "To the point, how is sitting for the purpose of experiencing jhaana not 'looking for a result'? The Buddha taught jhaana, clearly. I don't doubt that jhaana is a conditioned reality. I wonder why one should pursue it and if it is possible to know if it is 'really' jhaana." James: "If you know that the Buddha taught jhana, why are you questioning its value or purpose? You really aren't making any sense." James, think about it. The Buddha referred to jhaana but do you or I really know what this is in this day and age? I mean beyond reading the definitions, which we have both done, obviously. Or even sitting and experiencing whatever. No, what doesn't make sense to me are the sweeping sorts of statements that are all too common in western Buddhist circles - statements that are jingoistic to my ears - 'just sit and meditate', 'keep sitting', or (my personal favourite I think attributable to one of the Thai Forest monks - Sumedho?)'if it isn't jhaana it isn't meditation'. That doesn't make any sense. You must have experienced all this coming into Buddhism. There is real peer pressure for sure but how do you know that anyone 'out there' knows what they are talking about? How can one discern the truth of the matter? S: "Isn't it totally possible for one to be mistaken about a state and think it is jhaana (much in the same way it was that some used to mistake jhaana for an experience of nibbaana)?" James: "Sure it is. What's your point? Are you suggesting that no one should try to cultivate jhana because they might get it wrong? Again, that doesn't make any sense." James, think about it. It *is* important to be able to know if what one is 'cultivating' is jhaana. My point here is not directed at the cultivation of jhaana but rather at the ability to recognise jhaana. Again, going by common notions I run across, this is treated as if it is a common and easy thing to get into and recognise. Is it? Is this true? What if it isn't true? S: "The 'meditator'thinks she or he can simply sit and go through the steps and voila - at will." James: "Meditators don't believe that they can make insight arise at will (or at least they shouldn't)." Right, so why do 'meditators' insist that they can make jhaana arise at will? Is jhaana somehow different from pa~n~na (and I don't mean from a functional point of view I mean from the point of view of both being impersonal dhammas)? This strikes me as totally inconsistent. If one cannot make insight arise at will, nor can one make jhaana do so. Are these not dependent on conditions? But, this is slightly tangential, albeit important. James: "What in the devil are you rambling about? ;-)) The Buddha taught jhana, it is a vital part of the Noble Eightfold Path. There is nothing New Age, pop-psychology, or self-help about jhana." No, but the new-age-pop-psychology influence has been pissed all over the Buddha's teachings in my opinion (to adopt your own literary style for a moment). And nowhere more, in my opinion, in what has become a massively stereotyped, mimicked, misapplied, and misunderstood aspect of mental development. How does one tell the difference between falsehood and truth? S: "How does one know it is 'jhaana', or 'full jhaana' or 'not full-jhaana'?" James: "The Buddha described the various attributes of the jhanas, but he used metaphors and may not suit your taste for exactness. Scott, you just have to find out for yourself." This isn't helpful. What does this mean, 'You just have to find out for yourself'? This phrase is applied indiscriminantly. If I 'found out' that dhammas are impersonal and not subject to control, why try to make them occur? S: "Why should ancient commentators be ignored in favour of modern-day commentators?" James: "I believe all commentators should be ignored. Read the original suttas for yourself." This is naive, in my opinion. We have translations of the original suttas (and all of this material for that matter). We are dependent on the whims, follies, and agendas of the translators. This is the age of the declining saasana. Are you suggesting that I really on my own interpretations? I'm like a five year old in understanding. This would be crazy. The 'read the suttas' statement seems dogmatic and dismissive. S: "I suppose we'll never resolve this old debate of samatha versus vipassanaa, eh?" James: "It is an artifical issue brought about by wrong view. Samatha is necessary for vipassana, they do not contradict each other and one can't pick one over the other, so there is no 'versus'." This seems to make no sense, given that you seem to be a proponent of samatha over vipassanaa, at least as you come across here within the forum. Have I miscontrued you? Sincerely, Scott. #66559 From: "bjones6513" Date: Wed Dec 27, 2006 8:39 am Subject: Re: Cetasikas' study corner 613- Wholesome Deeds(j) bjones6513 --- Hi James, Thanks for the response. I've been meaning to jump into the fire again over the meditation topic but haven't had time. Have you or anyone had any experience with kasina meditation? I read the paper you mentioned on the Three Fundamental Concepts: What is Samadhi? So the Pathavi kasina will be my weekend project. Metta, Bill #66560 From: melek cilingir Date: Wed Dec 27, 2006 8:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Faults of Goenka's Meditation Method melekcilingir hi joop, joop: I saw in another messages of you "vedana indicates sensations on the body." Perhaps it's strange but I have no opinion on what 'vedana' is. What is important to me is that in the Satpatthana Sutta the Buddha talked about FOUR aspects on mediation: on the body, on feelings, on the mind, and on 'mental objects' (hindrances, aggregates, senses, awakening factors and the Four Noble Truths) melek: vedana is one of the four aspects on meditation you mentioned, feelings. according to goenka's technique (actually u ba khin's) vedana is bodily sensations. yes observing the bodily sensations (remaining equanimous) is the main technique. but in satipatthana courses, you start observing the other mental concomitants (vedana is also a cetasika; mental concomitant) as they arise. i have not sat any longer courses yet, i do not know if they learn any other thing but i do not think so. joop: Another question: is it possible to be a buddhist (whatever that is) in Turkey? melek: if you mean a religion, you cannot find a buddhist temple there. but many people are interested in buddhist/eastern philosophy nowadays, eventhough it turned to a commercial subject. there are numerous trendy activities such as reiki, deeksha, thai chi ... you are not asking silly questions, metta melek #66561 From: "bjones6513" Date: Wed Dec 27, 2006 9:11 am Subject: Re: Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 bjones6513 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote Hi Scott, James, Howard, & All, In regard to change, I prefer to think instead of transforming the mind, I'm transforming my relation to my mind, but, actually, scientific research has found actual changes in the brain due to meditation. So there is change. > > James: "Well, what in the heck do you think is the point of Buddhism? > For nothing to change?? The Third Noble Truth states that there is a > way to end suffering and escape samsara....that is looking for a > result." > Might I suggest something to read:http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/waytoend.html. Clearly, samatha or calming of the mind, ridding of defilements is a necessary prerequisite before vipassana. This is from my experience from attending longer retreats. That's the main reason I have trouble practicing vipassana bhavana at home unless I attend a longer retreat. There are exercises that many people practice which may be termed vipassana, but they are merely shortcuts and usually leave one with a mere intellectual understanding, which is fine. I, personally, strive for a balance of study and meditation. But for me true transcendence of worldly thoughts and ideas can only come from meditation, samatha to vipassana. Frankly, I equate Buddhism without meditation to walking into a restaurant , smelling, looking at the food, reading about it on the menu and then walking out without a taste. I don't understand how there can be a debate over samatha versus vipassana. They are inextricably linked. Otherwise it is only an intellectual appreciation of the realities of life, not the transformative or transcendence qualities that one strives for through meditation. Bill #66562 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 27, 2006 10:20 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily lIfe, 162. nilovg Dear friends, In the Visuddhimagga it is explained how one can develop higher degrees of calm by means of a meditation subject. It is explained (Vis. III, 119) that meditation subjects are learned by sight, by touch and by hearsay (words), depending on the nature of the subject. As regards the subjects which are learned by sight (such as coloured kasinas and the cemetery meditations), the Visuddhimagga (IV, 31) states that in the beginning one has to look closely at the meditation subject, and that later on one acquires a mental image (``sign'', in Påli: nimitta) of it; one no longer needs to look at the original object. At first the mental image is still unsteady and unclear, but later on it appears ``a hundred times, a thousand times more purified...'' The original object, for example a coloured kasina or the earth kasina, could have flaws, but the perfected mental image which is acquired when one is more advanced, does not have the imperfections of the original object one was looking at in the beginning. This perfected image is called the counterpart sign (patibhåga nimitta). At the moment the ``counterpart sign'' appears there is a higher degree of calm and concentration is more developed. This stage is called ``access-concentration'' (upacåra samådhi). The citta is not jhånacitta, it is still kåmåvacara citta (of the sense sphere), but the hindrances do not arise at the moment of ``access concentration''. However, the jhåna-factors are not developed enough yet to attain jhåna, and moreover, there are still other conditions needed to attain it. One has to ``guard the sign'' (nimitta) in order not to lose the perfected mental image one has developed. ``Access concentration'' is already very difficult to attain, but ``guarding the sign'' which is necessary in order to attain jhåna is also very difficult. The conditions for guarding the sign are, among others, the right dwelling place, suitable food, and avoidance of aimless talk. One should ``balance'' the five ``spiritual faculties'' (indriyas) which are the following cetasikas: saddhå (confidence in wholesomeness) viriya (energy) sati (mindfulness) samådhi (concentration) pa~n~nå (wisdom) Confidence should be balanced with wisdom so that one has not confidence uncritically and groundlessly. Concentration should be balanced with energy, because if there is concentration but not enough energy there will be idleness and jhåna cannot be attained. If there is too much energy and not enough concentration, there is a danger of becoming agitated and then one cannot attain jhåna either. All five indriyas should be balanced. ***** Nina. #66563 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 27, 2006 10:23 am Subject: Letters on Vipassana IV, 5 nilovg Dear friends, Do we know feelings as they are? Feelings change all the time since they arise and fall away together with the citta they accompany. We may be aware of pleasant feeling or unpleasant feeling, but we should also know the characteristic of indifferent feeling. When there is seeing the accompanying feeling is indifferent feeling, there cannot be pleasant feeling or unpleasant feeling. When we feel pain we are inclined to think that pain lasts. We think in this way because we do not realize the different characteristics of realities which appear. When there is impact of tangible object such as hardness on the bodysense there can be conditions for painful feeling. Painful feeling accompanying body-consciousness which is vipåkacitta only arises for one moment and then it falls away together with the citta. Tangible object which impinges on the bodysense falls away and so does the rúpa which is the bodysense on which the tangible object impinges. We tend to forget that the bodysense on which tangible object impinges is only an extremely small part of the body, a rúpa which arises and then falls away. We keep on thinking of "my sensitive body". Right understanding reduces the importance of "my body" or "I". We should "belittle ourselves from head to toe". When we remember this we can read with more understanding what is written in the suttas about endurance. We read, for example, in the "Discourse on all the Cankers" (Middle Length Sayings I, no. 2) that the Buddha spoke about ways to eliminate defilements. We read about endurance: And what, monks, are the cankers to be got rid of by endurance? In this teaching, monks, a monk, wisely reflective, is one who bears cold, heat, hunger, thirst, the touch of gadfly, mosquito, wind and sun, creeping things, ways of speech that are irksome, unwelcome; he is of a character to bear bodily feelings which, arising, are painful, acute, sharp, shooting, disagreeable, miserable, deadly... When one is wisely reflective one realizes unpleasant experiences as nåmas which arise because of their own conditions. Paramattha dhammas, nåma and rúpa, fall away immediately, they are insignificant dhammas, they are very trivial. We immediately form up concepts on account of paramattha dhammas which are experienced and we keep on thinking about concepts for a long time. ******* Nina. #66564 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 27, 2006 10:50 am Subject: earthquake nilovg Dear friends, Sarah asked me to pass this message to you: All, Due to an earthquake yesterday in Taiwan, it seems that undersea- optic cables have been badly damaged and in Hong Kong (and some other parts of Asia) we have very limited if any internet access, especially to the U.S. and U.S. sites it seems. So, we can't access DSG or our yahoo accounts (inc. the moderator one) for now. It may take up to a few days to repair the cables which have to be brought to the surface, put on a boat and I've no idea what else. Some cables can be re-routed, I believe. In addition, we've been asked to use these services ( In.c overseas tel. lines) as little as possible. Keep discussing dhamma and apologies for any delays this causes to anyone else. (James, hope you had no problems with the earthquake - v.mild effects here). Metta, Sarah (& Jon) p.s Jon tried sending a couple of messages to the list from his netvigator account. Just ignore this if his have already appeared. ============= #66565 From: "Joop" Date: Wed Dec 27, 2006 11:06 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Faults of Goenka's Meditation Method jwromeijn Hallo Melek, James, Bill, all James: "Right Mindfulness requires mindfulness of the body (as a whole), feelings (mental feelings of agreeable, disagreeable, and neutral- not physical sensations), mind, and mental objects. When Goenka teaches that all mental states and mental objects can be known by observing physical sensations in the body, he is teaching a falsehood." As a result of my discussion with Melek I looked in one of the (according Bjikkhu Bodhi) best books about the Satipatthana Sutta; 'Satipaahana; the best path to realization', byVen. Analayo. Below a quote about the question if one satipatthana (for example on the body) is enough or that we need to do all four. And a quote from it about 'vedana'. Melek, thanks forn what you told about buddhism/eatern philosophy in your country, in more or less the same as in mine. And a good night. Metta Joop "1.3 The relevance of each satipatthana for realization According to the Anapanasati Sutta, it is possible to develop a variety of different aspects of satpatthana contemplation with a single meditation object and in due course cover all four satipatthanas. This raises the question how far a single satipatthana, or even a single meditation exercise, can be taken as a complete practice in its own right. Several discourses relate the practice of a single satipatthana directly to realization. Similarly, the commentaries assign to each single satipatthana meditation the capacity to lead to full awakening. This may well be why a high percentage of present-day meditation teachers focus on the use of a single meditation technique, on the ground that a single-minded and thorough perfection of one meditation technique can cover all aspects of satipatthana, and thus be sufficient to gain realization. [footnote about for example Goenka] Indeed, the development of awareness with any particular meditation technique will automatically result in a marked increase in one general level of awareness, thereby enhancing one'e capacity to be mindful in regard to situations that do not form part of one's primary object of meditation … Yet the exposition in the Anapanasati Sutta does not necessarily imply that by being aware of the breath one automatically covers all aspects of satipatthana. What the Buddha demonstrated here was how a thorough development of sati can lead from the breath to a broad range of objects, encompassing different aspects of subjective reality. Clearly, such a broad range of aspects was the outcome of a diliberate development, otherwise the Buddha would not have needed to deliver a whole discourse on how to achieve this. In fact, several meditation teachers and scholares place a strong emphasis on covering all four satipatthanas in one practice [footnote: for example Nyanaponika] according to them, although one particular meditation practice can serev as the primary object of attention, the other aspects of satipatthana should be deliberately comtemplated too, even if only in a secondary manner. This approach can claim some support from the conclusing part of the Satipatthana Sutta, the 'prediction' of realization. … Thus any single meditation practice from the satipatthana scheme is capable of leading to deep insight, especially if developed according the key instructions given in the 'definition' and the 'refrain' of the discourse. Nevertheless, an attempt to cover all four satipatthanas in one's practice does more justice to the distinct character of the various meditations described in the Satipatthana Sutta and thereby assures speedy progress and a balanced and comprehensive development." (page 21-23) "The Pali term for 'feeling' is 'vedana', derived from the verb vedeti,… In its usage in the discourses, vedana comprises both bodily and mental feelings." (page 156) #66566 From: "bjones6513" Date: Wed Dec 27, 2006 1:15 pm Subject: Re: Faults of Goenka's Meditation Method bjones6513 Hi Joop, It's not a question as to whether one satipatthana is more advantageous to not than another. That wasn't even a point in the previous posts, unless I missed one. The problem is equating vedana with physical sensations. Vedana according to the Abhidhamma is ia a universal mental factor. Notice the word "universal." That means that vedana can be applied to many different things, including physical sensations, but physical sensations, per se, are not vedana. Another thing mentioned in the conclusion of the Satipatthana is that 'monks should practice these FOUR foundations of mindfulness." With this statement the Buddha gives the promise of liberation. B. Bodhi is essay on the Eightfold Path states that "Right Mindfulness is to clear up the cognitive field." Let me ask you, are physical sensations the extend of your cognitive field? Hopefully your answer is no. This is the problem and this is why Analayo mentions Goenka's technique as being conducive for beginners. But you are right, other suttas mention liberation from one satipatthana. I think, in general, the Buddha taylored his discourses for particular levels of previous attainment. Obviously, they are not all the same. What bothers me is that there is only the one technique in the Goenka method. I didn't realize that. I thought they had Satipatthana retreats. At least that's what they told us. Lastly, B. Bodhi's comment about Analayo's book is that he is not out to establish validity of one particular system of meditation as against others, but to explore the sutta as a wide-ranging and multi-faceted source of guidance which allows for alternative interpretation, hence months of discussion. I'd write more but I have to go. Metta, Bill #66567 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Dec 27, 2006 7:03 pm Subject: Re: Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 buddhatrue Hi Scott, Okay, you are trying to work my last nerve! ;-)) (just kidding). I will delve into these additional questions you ask, but you seem to be rather close-minded about the subject. First, I want to explain, it is not my goal to argue that everyone can achieve jhana or that it is easy to do so. Conversely, I don't believe that no one can achieve jhana in this day and age (as some believe). Both of these things are speculative and I don't want to speculate. All I am saying is that the Buddha taught jhana and that it is a necessary step to liberation- end of story. Scott: Why the constant focus on sitting a certain way? How is this not stereotypic? James: Sitting that way is not stereotypic or something that people just thought up, the Buddha specifically taught to sit that way: ""There is the case where a monk — having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building — sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect and setting mindfulness to the fore" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.22.0.than.html Scott: What 'meditation looks like' is a superficial notion (although I think you are employing a literary device here). James: No, I was not employing a literary device. You asked me what meditation is so I told you what it looked like and what happens in the mind- focusing on an object of meditation. There are 40 different objects of meditation and they are each approached in a different way so I cannot be extremely specific in this forum. You should have enough information to understand what meditation is now. Scott: You may have 'told' me but you in no way 'explained' much, which is fine. James: Well, again as I wrote to you, you need to do some research on your own. These are basic questions you can find out elsewhere. I am a householder so I have a job and other responsibilities; I don't have the time to explain every detail of Buddhism (and I am not qualified anyway). But, in summary, jhana suppresses the defilements because they don't have the chance to arise. Mental proliferations, the natural tendency of the mind, give rise to craving, desire, greed, hatred, delusion, etc.. When one is in jhana (or focusing on a meditation subject) this natural tendency of the mind is significantly slowed down or stopped. Then the natural luminosity and wisdom of the mind can arise. Scott: Below you clarify that by 'mind' you mean 'consciousness'. Do you mean 'vi~n~naana', 'citta', 'mano' - in which sense do you mean this? James: I mean citta, clinging consciousness. Scott: Below, as well, you note that pa~n~na and vipassanaa are the mental factors whose function it is to 'destroy defilements'. Cultivating jhaana temporarily suppresses defilements, I think, and then, if I'm following you, there is a chance for pa~n~na and vipassanaa to arise. Can one make this happen? James: "Can one make this happen?"- this question does not apply. What one can do is focus the mind on a meditation object; this can be done. The suppression of the defilements and the arising of vipassana are not things which are `made to happen by one', in the conventional sense. In other words, there doesn't have to be a self to practice meditation and gain benefit. It is a process, a path to follow….not a path to create. Scott: Being taught that there is a way to end suffering and escape samsaara is not at all being taught that one finds it by looking for a result. James: Well, I disagree. The Buddha taught that one was to look for results in one's practice to evaluate one's progress. There are stages of jhana, stages of enlightenment, etc. There are many ways to evaluate progress toward a specific result. Scott: I have total faith that change can happen. This is not at all the question I have. I'm wondering why this huge focus on 'sitting meditation' as if it the only way to do things. James: It isn't the only way to do things, and I never said it was. I have continually stressed the importance of all eight steps of the Noble Eightfold Path. We are simply discussing jhana now so it just seems as if there is an over-emphasis on sitting meditation. If this was a jhana group and some members believed jhana was everything, I would be emphasizing dhamma study, right view, and daily mindfulness. Scott: James, think about it. The Buddha referred to jhaana but do you or I really know what this is in this day and age? I mean beyond reading the definitions, which we have both done, obviously. Or even sitting and experiencing whatever. James: This is beside the point. The Buddha taught jhana so it is important to cultivate jhana. I am not going to participate in speculation about who, what, where, and when jhana has been achieved in this day and age. It is a moot point. Scott: You must have experienced all this coming into Buddhism. There is real peer pressure for sure but how do you know that anyone 'out there' knows what they are talking about? How can one discern the truth of the matter? James: I didn't experience any peer pressure of this nature. I read about Buddhism; I learned the Noble Eightfold Path; and I tried my best to put it into practice. Most of what I did was internal so no one even saw a practice. I had to develop right view that life was suffering and no temporary pleasures or diversions were going to change that; I had to cultivate thinking that wasn't greedy or hateful; I had to cultivate speech that was truthful, served a good purpose, and wasn't abusive (still working on that one! ;-)); I had to cultivate actions that didn't harm or kill living beings, not stealing, and sexual misconduct; I had to choose a livelihood that was honest and helpful to society; I had to cultivate the effort to follow the right path, because it isn't easy or natural; I had to remain mindful and alert during my waking hours of my body, feelings, mental state, and mind objects, so that I could be aware of defilements when they arose; and finally I had to practice sitting, walking, standing, and lying meditation to develop concentration of mind. I didn't encounter Buddhism and think "Oh, now I must sit in meditation and everything else will be fine the way it is." No, Buddhism was a radical transformation of the way I lived in my own skin, as well as meditation practice. Scott: James, think about it. It *is* important to be able to know if what one is 'cultivating' is jhaana. My point here is not directed at the cultivation of jhaana but rather at the ability to recognise jhaana. Again, going by common notions I run across, this is treated as if it is a common and easy thing to get into and recognise. Is it? Is this true? What if it isn't true? James: Scott, personally I haven't experienced jhana because for 15 years I practiced the wrong type of meditation- vipassana meditation as taught by Goenka. However, I believe that if I had practiced the proper kind of meditation that the Buddha taught, for 15 years, I would have experienced at least one if not all four jhanas. Ask me this question again in another 15 years. ;-)) Scott: Right, so why do 'meditators' insist that they can make jhaana arise at will? James: I don't know meditators who insist on this, unless they have perfected the jhanas. It takes a lot of practice to make jhana arise at will. The Buddha could do it. Scott: Is jhaana somehow different from pa~n~na (and I don't mean from a functional point of view I mean from the point of view of both being impersonal dhammas)? This strikes me as totally inconsistent. If one cannot make insight arise at will, nor can one make jhaana do so. Are these not dependent on conditions? James: Again, it isn't really `jhana' that arises at will—it is the concentration of cittas on a meditation object. Jhana arises as a consequence of this concentration. It is dependent on conditions. Scott: No, but the new-age-pop-psychology influence has been pissed all over the Buddha's teachings in my opinion (to adopt your own literary style for a moment). James: LOL! I don't think my literary style is quite that vulgar, but that is a good try! ;-)) And, yes, I agree with you that the Buddha's teachings have been watered down over the years. However, I think that KS is just as guilty of this as other new-age-pop- psychology gurus. Scott: And nowhere more, in my opinion, in what has become a massively stereotyped, mimicked, misapplied, and misunderstood aspect of mental development. How does one tell the difference between falsehood and truth? James: Study the suttas for yourself. If you want to study the Abhidhamma, study the original texts- don't study the writings of Nina or KS or anyone else. Scott: This is naive, in my opinion. We have translations of the original suttas (and all of this material for that matter). We are dependent on the whims, follies, and agendas of the translators. This is the age of the declining saasana. Are you suggesting that I really on my own interpretations? I'm like a five year old in understanding. This would be crazy. The 'read the suttas' statement seems dogmatic and dismissive. James: Well, you may think it is naïve for me to tell you to study the suttas for yourself, but I don't think so. The Buddha taught that we must all be an island unto ourselves and that when he died, the dhamma he taught was to be our teacher (no one else). Sure, suttas are translated in different ways, so that is why I suggest you read ALL of them. The big picture will start to fit together if you read all of the suttas. You can also participate in this group if you have any questions- there are very knowledgeable people here. But you still must decide for yourself and don't let anyone influence your decisions. Yes, this is dogmatic; I am very dogmatic about what the Buddha taught. But it isn't dismissive; I really believe you must study the texts for yourself. Scott: This seems to make no sense, given that you seem to be a proponent of samatha over vipassanaa, at least as you come across here within the forum. Have I miscontrued you? James: Yes, you have misconstrued me. It only seems that I am a proponent of samatha over vipassana in this group. Samatha alone doesn't lead to liberation, and vipassana isn't possible without a firm foundation of samatha. So, I don't take sides. I am for samatha and vipassana. Metta, James Ps. This is just about the longest post I have written to this group! If you ask a whole series of new questions I am going to have a heart-attack! ;-)) #66568 From: Date: Wed Dec 27, 2006 7:03 pm Subject: A hunny drop for a day ! sihalene60 The gift of Dhamma triumphs over all other gifts; the taste of Dhamma triumphs over all other tastes; the happiness of Dhamma triumphs over all other pleasures; the eradication of craving triumphs over all suffering. Dhammapada 354 #66569 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Dec 27, 2006 9:54 pm Subject: Unwavering Faith! bhikkhu5 Friends: What is Unwavering Faith and Confidence? Knowing, Friends, evil covetousness and wicked greed to be mental defilements, the Bhikkhu leaves them, eliminates, & eradicates them. Knowing hating ill will to be a mental defilement, he leaves ill will. Knowing aversive anger to be a mental defilement, he leaves anger. Knowing bad revenge to be a mental defilement, he leaves revenge. Knowing contempt to be a mental defilement, he leaves contempt. Knowing tyranny to be a mental defilement, he leaves tyranny. Knowing green envy to be a mental defilement, he leaves envy. Knowing jealousy to be a mental defilement, he leaves jealousy. Knowing hypocrisy to be a mental defilement, he leaves hypocrisy. Knowing cheating fraud to be a mental defilement, he leaves fraud. Knowing obstinacy to be a mental defilement, he leaves obstinacy. Knowing puffed pride to be a mental defilement, he leaves pride. Knowing self-conceit to be a mental defilement, he leaves conceit. Knowing arrogance to be a mental defilement, he leaves arrogance. Knowing void vanity to be a mental defilement, he leaves vanity. Knowing negligence to be a mental defilement, he leaves negligence. When the Bhikkhu has left behind this covetousness, and evil greed, ill will, aversive anger, revenge, contempt, domineering tyranny, envy, jealousy, hypocrisy, cheat & fraud, obstinacy, puffed pride, conceit, arrogance, vanity, and negligence, he then gains unwavering Faith, unshakable Confidence and resolute Conviction in the Buddha thus: Worthy, honourable and perfectly self-Enlightened is the Buddha! Fully consummated in knowledge and behaviour, totally transcended, expert in all dimensions, knower of all worlds, unsurpassable trainer of those who can be tamed, both teacher and guide of gods as well as humans, blessed, exalted, awakened, & enlightened is the Buddha! He gains unwavering Faith, Confidence & Conviction in the Dhamma thus: Perfectly formulated is the Buddha-Dhamma, visible right here and now, immediately effective, timeless, inviting each and everyone to come and see for themselves, inspect, examine and verify. Leading each and everyone through progress towards perfection. Directly observable, experiencable & realizable by each intelligence! He gains unwavering Faith, Confidence and Conviction in the Sangha thus: Perfectly training is this Noble Sangha community of Buddha's Noble disciples: Training the right way, the true way, the good way, the direct way! Therefore do these 8 kinds of individuals, the four Noble pairs, deserve both gifts, self-sacrifice, offerings, hospitality and reverential salutation even with joined palms, since this Noble Sangha community of the Buddha's Noble disciples, is indeed an unsurpassable and forever unsurpassed field of merit, in this world, for this world, to honour, support, award, respect, and protect! When he has given up, left, and eliminated these mental defilements he knows: I am convinced by steady unwavering Faith & Confidence in the Buddha... in the Dhamma... in the Sangha... He therefore gains enthusiasm for the goal, gains inspiration from the Dhamma, & gains the gladness connected with this true Dhamma. When gladdened, a rapturous joy is born in him; being joyous in mind, his body becomes tranquil; his body being tranquil, he feels happiness; and the mind of him who is happy becomes concentrated into full intense absorption! Source: Majjhima Nikaya MN 7 Vatthupama Sutta: The Simile of the Cloth! http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.007.nypo.html Friendship is the Greatest Bhikkhu Samahita Ceylon Unwavering Faith! #66570 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Dec 27, 2006 9:38 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 upasaka_howard Hi, James (and Scott) - In a message dated 12/27/06 10:08:24 PM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@... writes: > This is just about the longest post I have written to this > group! If you ask a whole series of new questions I am going to have > a heart-attack! ;-)) > ====================== You're a good man, James - better than I! LOL! With metta, Howard #66571 From: "Joop" Date: Thu Dec 28, 2006 3:29 am Subject: Re: Faults of Goenka's Meditation Method jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "bjones6513" wrote: > > Hi Joop, > Hallo Bill B: "It's not a question as to whether one satipatthana is more advantageous to not than another. That wasn't even a point in the previous posts, unless I missed one." J: I think you did, but perhaps I created it. Anyhow, this is the points that interests me, not equating vedana with physical sensations (or not) B: Vedana according to the Abhidhamma is ia a universal mental factor. Notice the word "universal." That means that vedana can be applied to many different things, including physical sensations" J: The term "applied" surprises me, I will not express in this way that a cetasika can be combined with a citta. But as far as I understand you, we agree about the universal character of 'vedana'. B: Let me ask you, are physical sensations the extend of your cognitive field? Hopefully your answer is no. J: I first could not believe that BB really used that term, 'cognitive field'; I generally suspect the metaphorical use of the language of physics. But I found it in his essay; one time and even in the context the term is not helpful to me: too much Freud. I do not know if/that I have a "cognitive field". So I don't answer. With the rest of your message I can agree. I used the term 'upaya' (skilful means) as used in Mahayana buddhism: that different methods are possible for beginning the path of liberation. My added opinion: whatever is the beginning, all aspects of the Noble Eightfold Path had to be 'done'. This is the reason the vipassana à la Mahasi that I practice, is criticised: there is no exercise of 'right concentration', till jhana, in it. So right concentration is something I want to practice in the future. Metta Joop #66572 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Dec 28, 2006 9:18 am Subject: Re: Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 scottduncan2 Dear James, Thanks for your reply. I really appreciate the description of your personal path (thanks again) - you are a man of faith. J: "Okay, you are trying to work my last nerve! ;-)) (just kidding)." Good one! I didn't know you had one left... To preserve your nerve, there was something that seemed worth focusing on (pardon the elisions): James: "...I am a householder so I have a job and other responsibilities...Most of what I did was internal so no one even saw a practice. I had to develop right view that life was suffering and no temporary pleasures or diversions were going to change that; I had to cultivate thinking that wasn't greedy or hateful; I had to cultivate speech that was truthful, served a good purpose, and wasn't abusive (still working on that one! ;-)); I had to cultivate actions that didn't harm or kill living beings, not stealing, and sexual misconduct; I had to choose a livelihood that was honest and helpful to society; I had to cultivate the effort to follow the right path, because it isn't easy or natural; I had to remain mindful and alert during my waking hours of my body, feelings, mental state, and mind objects, so that I could be aware of defilements when they arose; and finally I had to practice sitting, walking, standing, and lying meditation to develop concentration of mind. I didn't encounter Buddhism and think "Oh, now I must sit in meditation and everything else will be fine the way it is." No, Buddhism was a radical transformation of the way I lived in my own skin, as well as meditation practice...personally I haven't experienced jhana because for 15 years I practiced the wrong type of meditation- vipassana meditation..." What is available to the householder? What is possible? This is what you've given me to wonder about. A"nguttara Nikaaya, VIII, 54: "...Four other things lead to a family man's welfare and happiness in the future life. What four? Accomplishment in faith, virtue, generosity and wisdom. "And how is a family man accomplished in faith? Here, Byagghpajja, a family man has faith; he places faith in the enlightenment of the Tathaagata thus...In this way a family man is accomplished in faith. "And how is a family man accomplished in virtue?...a family man abstains from the destruction of life, from stealing, from sexual misconduct, from false speech, and from wines, liquors and intoxicants which are a basis for negligence. In this way a family man is accomplished in virtue. "And how is a family man accomplished in generosity?...a family man dwells at home with a mind devoid of the stain of stinginess, freely generous, open-handed, delighting in relinquishment, one devoted to charity, delighting in giving and sharing. In this way a family man is accomplished in generosity. "And how is a family man accomplished in wisdom?...a family man possesses the wisdom which sees into the arising and passing away of phenomena, which is noble and penetrative and leads to the complete destruction of suffering. In this way a family man is accomplished in wisdom." The first four things mentioned were "the accomplishment of persistent effort, the accomplishment of protection, good friendship, and balanced living." Cultivating jhaana was not mentioned. You may know of other suttas which include samatha and the pursuit of jhaana as being vehicles for the householder. I'll keep looking. Given the limitations of the householder life, is it worth pursuing samatha? What do you think? J: "Ps. This is just about the longest post I have written to this group! If you ask a whole series of new questions I am going to have a heart-attack! ;-))" I'm pleased to be involved in this auspicious record-making post! Sincerely, Scott. #66573 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Dec 28, 2006 11:07 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily lIfe 163 nilovg Dear friends, From the foregoing examples we see that samatha cannot be cultivated without a basic understanding and careful consideration of the realities taught in the Abhidhamma which are in fact the realities of daily life. One should know precisely when the citta is kusala citta and when it is akusala citta. One should know which realities the jhåna-factors are and one should realize as regards oneself whether the jhåna-factors are developed or not. One should know whether the cetasikas which are the five indriyas (faculties) are developed or not, whether they are balanced or not. If there is not the right understanding of all these different factors and conditions necessary for the attainment of ``access concentration'' and of jhåna, one is in danger of taking for ``access concentration'' what is not ``access concentration'' and taking for jhåna what is not jhåna. Neither ``access concentration'' nor jhåna can be attained without having cultivated the right conditions. Not all meditation subjects lead to jhåna, some have only ``access concentration'' as their result, such as the recollections of the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha. Some meditation subjects lead only to the first stage of rúpa-jhåna, some to all stages of rúpa-jhåna. The meditation subject which is mindfulness of breathing can lead to all stages of rúpa-jhåna. This meditation subject which is considered by many to be relatively easy, is one of the most difficult. One has to be mindful of one's in-breath and out-breath where they touch the tip of the nose or the upper-lip. This meditation subject is not learnt by sight, but by touch: the in-breath and out-breath are the ``sign'' (nimitta) one has continuously to give attention to. We read in the Visuddhimagga (VIII, 208): For while other meditation subjects become clearer at each higher stage, this one does not: in fact, as he goes on developing it, it becomes more subtle for him at each higher stage, and it even comes to the point at which it is no longer manifest. Further on (VIII, 211) we read: Although any meditation subject, no matter what, is successful only in one who is mindful and fully aware, yet any meditation subject other than this one gets more evident as he goes on giving it his attention. But this mindfulness of breathing is difficult, difficult to develop, a field in which only the minds of Buddhas, Pacceka Buddhas, and Buddhas's sons are at home. It is no trivial matter, nor can it be cultivated by trivial persons. In proportion as continued attention is given to it, it becomes more peaceful and more subtle. So strong mindfulness and understanding are necessary here. Mindfulness of breathing is most difficult, ``it is no trivial matter'', as the Visuddhimagga stated. The Buddha and his great disciples were endowed with great wisdom and other excellent qualities and thus, for them it was a ``field'' in which their minds were at home. ***** Nina. #66574 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Dec 28, 2006 11:10 am Subject: Letters on Vipassana IV, 6 nilovg Dear friends, When we pay attention to the shape and form of things we think of concepts, but we could not think of shape and form if there were no seeing. Seeing sees colour or visible object but there is usually ignorance of these realities. They arise and then fall away but they are not known. When one considers realities more often there will be more conditions for awareness of them. Someone said that the word colour may be misleading, because when one recognizes red or blue there is already thinking. However, red or blue are seen without having to label them red or blue. These colours are not the same and they appear through the eye-door. If there were no eyesense the different colours could not appear. The "Dhammasangani" (Book II, Ch II, 617) gives many details about colour. Colour can be blue, yellow, red, white, black, crimson, bronze, green, of the hue of the mango- bud, shady, glowing, light, dim, dull, frosty, smoky or dusty. It can be the colour of the moon, sun, stars, a mirror, a gem, a shell, a pearl, a cat's eye, gold or silver. The aim of giving so many details is to remind us to be aware of colour, no matter it is the colour of the moon, of a gem or any other colour. Satipaììhåna can be developed in a natural way. Also when we look at the moon or at gems there is colour and it can be known as the reality which can be seen. We do not have to make an effort to look for a special colour in order to be aware of it. The "Dhammasangani" gives in the same section (621) examples of different kinds of sounds: That sound which is derived from the four great Elements, is invisible and reacting, such as the sound of drums, of tabors, of chank-shells, of tom-toms, of singing, of music; clashing sounds, manual sounds, the noise of people, the sound of the concussion of substances, of wind, of water, sounds human and other than human, or whatever sound there is... This passage reminds us to be aware of sound, no matter which kind of sound it is. Sounds are not the same, they are high or low, loud or soft, they have different qualities. We are so used to the familiar sound of the shuffling of feet, of the turning of pages or of pen or pencil when we are writing. We let such moments pass without awareness. We are usually absorbed in the meaning of sounds, thus, in concepts, but we can begin to be aware of the characteristic of sound. This is the way to know it as a reality which can be heard. Right understanding reduces the importance of the meaning of something, of concepts. ******* Nina. #66575 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Dec 28, 2006 11:26 am Subject: If not pakatupanissaya nilovg Dear Rob M, ---------- Are you saying that when asynchronous kamma condition arises it always arises together with pakatupanissaya condition? Is that mentioned in the Patthana or the commentary? --------- N: We say of nama dhammas and rupa dhammas that they arise, but as to conditions it is different. See the Intro of Conditional Relations: a condition is, according to the Co. a 'satti', a force. Also, a dhamma can have many conditioning forces. U Narada explains in Guide to Conditional Relations (p. 181) under Natural Strong Dependence that strong asynchronous kamma is in the Natural Strong Dependence Group. Conditional Relations, p. 163: under Natural Strong Dependence Kh Sujin spoke many times about this subject, saying that for kamma to produce its result also the natural strong dependence-condition is needed. I am rather short since I have a deadline for a project. Nina. #66576 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Dec 28, 2006 11:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 nilovg Dear Scott (and James), I join in your appreciation. James has written a well thought out post, explaining matters thoroughly, after serious study. I also appreciated your dialogues with Howard. They were the sort of questions I have in mind. I am rather silent these days, because of my wrok, the deadline. Nina. Op 28-dec-2006, om 18:18 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: > I really appreciate the description of your > personal path (thanks again) - you are a man of faith. #66577 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Dec 28, 2006 8:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Letters on Vipassana IV, 6 upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 12/28/06 2:22:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: > Dear friends, > > When we pay attention to the shape and form of things we think of > concepts, but we could not think of shape and form if there were no > seeing. Seeing sees colour or visible object but there is usually > ignorance of these realities. ========================= Suppose we see a black disk on a red background, occupying the entire field of vision; i.e., that is exactly what is seen. The visual object is that entire, 2-colored "mosaic". It is the object content at that moment of visual consciousness. It is a reality in the sense that it is actually observed. Additional mental processing is presumably required to "see" that visual object as consisting of black and red, and even more processing, I would suppose, is required to see the disk shape of the black region. A question, though: Is not the red component "real", is not the black component "real", and is not the disk-shape also "real". Does the need for additional sa~n~nic and sankharic processing make these unreal? The name 'red', the name 'black', and the name 'disk' are, indeed, just names. But do these names not point to things quite real about the original visual object? With metta, Howard #66578 From: "suryarao" Date: Thu Dec 28, 2006 1:30 pm Subject: Killings - violence : the insight behind.. suryarao First of all, Thanks a lot for your efforts in running this extremely informative group. It has been around 10 years since I got introduced to vipassana. Still I'm beginner in this practise, but I fully believe in this method. I have very basic question about violence or killings done for eating. I have read different views about this but still not quite clear about it, so please bear with me and help me understand. Is there any difference between value of a life of animal and a life a plant (vegetable) or a life of a human ? Buddhism prohibits killings of animals for eating them. 1. Is the objection is because we are killing an animal ? What's detailed reason behind it ? 2. Several times being vegetarian, I (indirectly) kill several small plants in one meal. If I were eating beef, may be we would need less killing because of sheer size of animal. 3. Whats the difference between killings of animals for eating, or those of ordinary humans or killings of much better humans (e.g. Gandhi or Martin Luther King. ) Your detailed elaboration will help me understand this better and guide me. Metta, Sanjay #66579 From: "m. nease" Date: Thu Dec 28, 2006 3:36 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma in Daily lIfe 163 m_nease Hi Nina, Very timely, thanks very much and Gelukkig NieuwJaar, mike #66580 From: "robmoult" Date: Thu Dec 28, 2006 3:44 pm Subject: Re: If not pakatupanissaya robmoult Hi Nina, Much appreciated. Thanks. Metta, Rob M :-) #66581 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Dec 28, 2006 4:37 pm Subject: Re: Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 buddhatrue Hi Scott, Thanks for only one question. You saved my last nerve! ;-)) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > You may know of other suttas which include samatha and the pursuit of > jhaana as being vehicles for the householder. James: Yes, I do: AN 109 "The Rapture of Seclusion": Then the householder Anathapindika, accompanied by five hundred lay followers, approached the Blessed One…The Blessed One then said to them: "Householders, you attend upon the Sangha of monks with robes, almsfood, lodgings and medicinal requisites for use in time of sickness. But you should not remain satisfied merely with this. Rather, householders, you should train yourselves thus: "How can we enter and dwell from time to time in the rapture of seclusion?" (33) Thus should you train yourselves." When he heard this, the Venerable Sariputta said to the Blessed One: "It is wonderful, Lord! It is marvelous, Lord! How well spoken was that statement of the Blessed One. Whenever, Lord, a noble disciple enters and dwells in the rapture of seclusion, on that occasion these five things come to him: (1) Whatever pain and grief there is connected with sensual desire does not exist on that occasion; (2) whatever pleasure and joy there is connected with sensual desire does not exist on that occasion; (3) whatever pain and grief there is connected with the unwholesome does not exist on that occasion: (4) whatever pleasure and joy there is connected with the unwholesome does not exist on that occasion; (5) whatever pain and grief there is connected with the wholesome does not exist on that occasion. Whenever a noble disciple enters and dwells in the rapture of seclusion, on that occasion these five things come to him." "Good, good, Sariputta!" (The Buddha then repeats the Venerable Sariputta's words in full.) Note 33: Pavivekam pitim. AA: The rapture arising in dependence on the first and second jhanas. I'll keep looking. > Given the limitations of the householder life, is it worth pursuing > samatha? What do you think? James: Yes, I think it is worth it to pursue samatha. We should not be content with simply supporting the sangha with requisites, we should also experience for ourselves what the Buddha taught. Metta, James #66582 From: "Sukinder" Date: Thu Dec 28, 2006 4:45 pm Subject: Re: Cetasikas' study corner 613- Wholesome Deeds(j) sukinderpal Hi Howard, > > Some comments from me if you don't mind. > -------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Of course! I welcome your comments. It is most appropriate that you > express your view, and I appreciate your kind introduction. :-) > --------------------------------------------- Thanks for this, some more comments follow: ============================= S> > > Is there a 'map' to be followed by 'someone'? Or is it about different levels > > of 'understanding' and its own development without any idea of > > 'implementation' by someone? Your 'one-trick-pony' idea may in fact be due > > to your own misunderstanding of these three levels of wisdom? > ---------------------------------------------- > Howard: > The idea of not putting into practice the Dhamma until it has been > studied like a scholar for ages is an error, in my opinion - a grave error. Sukin: Is this the impression that you keep getting? If so, then I think it is a wrong one got from some misunderstanding. I'll try to outline some of the basic points and add some comments below: Hearing the Dhamma one comes away with the understanding that there are in reality only paramattha dhammas. The distinction is then made, between ultimate realities and concepts. This means that at every moment, behind any conventional reality, there are in fact only paramattha dhammas performing their functions, each arising and falling away in an instant. Before hearing the Dhamma we all took different concepts for real, as wholes, situations, people and things; and every experience was taken for `self'. Before and still do after hearing the Dhamma, the fact of conditionality and the anicca, dukkha and anatta nature of realities is not deeply considered, and the result of this often, is attempts at control of experiences, contradicting the nature of what these paramattha dhammas exhibit. So Howard, I don't think anyone with the above understanding would then go on to have such an idea: "not putting into practice the Dhamma until it has been studied like a scholar for ages". There is no one who `studies', just as there is none who `practices'. And this I think is at the heart of most of the arguments between us. While some of us speak against `deliberate noting', I don't think anyone recommends `deliberate studying'. Both `study' and `practice', being reference to conditioned dhammas. And though the former involve the conventional activities of reading and listening, the reference is to moments of a level of panna arising. This itself is a question of right intellectual understanding of what constitutes pariyatti. And therefore every time this fact is pointed out, it is best seen as a reminder about conditionality, i.e. pariyatti-->patipatti-->pativedha, all being so anatta, and not so much a prompt to go and switch on a recording or open a book. I for one will readily admit to being driven to read/listen/discuss mostly by force of lobha, and any kusala chandha must be very little compared. You may argue that this is the same with meditation. But is it? If indeed patipatti is a conditioned reality evolving from pariyatti, is it not imperative that we *never* ignore the latter? When we seek to learn about something, we need to listen to or read about it. And if we feel that we do not understand enough, we read again or more. How much more so do we need to do this when it comes to Dhamma? Here we are dealing with fundamental ignorance and the ever reappearing tanha! Here unlike other subjects, the understanding does not involve mere accumulation of sanna and thinking over ideas, but rather developing an understanding dependent to a great extent on detachment. And remember, right energy, right thought, right mindfulness, right concentration, these are not easy to develop. This is probably why K. Sujin stresses so much, detachment from the very beginning. The pariyatti level of understanding is characterized by a corresponding level of detachment. Not appreciating this it seems, is due to some wrong understanding, one which is characterized "wanting things to happen", and hence following wrong practices. Besides, with pariyatti, one can't expect this to arise from hearing `wrong teachings' and so particular `right ideas' are needed for this to happen. On the other hand, with patipatti, all situations being the same in that dhammas are equally fleeting and have particular characteristics that can be known, this is not situation specific, therefore any idea of better time, place and activity, must be due to some wrong understanding of the nature of realities. Are then the decisions to meditate and to study similar? Is the volition to `sit' the same as to `study'? Sorry for being so long winded, it just comes out this way, beyond control. ;-) ========================================= > > S> My point was that were the Dhamma so simple such that one could reduce it > > to 'following meditation instruction' after hearing some theory, the Buddha > > would not have hesitated. Why would he, if in the end all he needed to do > > was to have meditation centers in which all he needed was to ask people to > > listen and follow? Besides you would have found many suttas mentioning such > > an idea wouldn't you? But is there? More likely this idea of retreats etc. > > grew out in recent history, from increased misunderstanding of Dhamma, > > catering to 'tanha' for results. > > ----------------------------------------- > Howard: > Going on rereats has come to serve as a layperson's approximation to > elements of the bhikkhu/bhikkhuni life. Sukin: I thought too that this must be more or less the reason! The problem as I see it is this: The accumulations underlying the concept of `bhikkhu' are very different from that of the `lay person'. The lay person who has accumulated certain conditions for e.g., having recognized the dustiness of the lay life, the danger of attachment, the value of the homeless life, finds perhaps that he is more suited to becoming a bhikkhu. It is not like one can decide to ordain and those understandings will emerge. More likely having ordained for all the wrong reasons, he ends up with wrong view. Those conditions have been accumulated for lifetimes over lifetime. Similarly, this is with the accumulations for jhana. Jhana is the culmination of an understanding not too dissimilar to that of the bhikkhu. Do lay people who wish to attain jhana even know to distinguish kusala states from akusala ones? Do they even see any dust in the household life? Or have they simply abstracted an idea out of the body of Teachings and created more or less one's own version of Dhamma? Why willingly ignore the more basic conditions, ones which you might have been reading about in Nina's current series of posts. I think all jhana enthusiasts should seriously consider what she has been writing about. I know that I have gone against your thinking, but I hope you take it that the intentions are not bad.:-) With Metta, Sukin #66583 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Dec 28, 2006 5:00 pm Subject: Re: earthquake buddhatrue Hi Sarah, (James, hope you had no problems with the earthquake - > v.mild effects here). I tried to send a personal update to you and Jon off-list but it got rejected. Must be because of the Internet problems. I will go ahead and post it here: Well, yesterday evening I experienced my first earthquake!! I was sitting on my bed watching Star Trek on my computer (which I love, BTW), and then suddenly the bed started moving. It felt like someome was pushing the bed. I was really confused for a minute and thought that maybe someone was in the room. Then I noticed that the door frame was rattling and my TV set was swaying back and forth. I figured out that it was an earthquake so I closed my computer, put my hands on it, and prepared to make a dash for the doorframe in case the earthquake got bad (my computer is my most valuable/important possession ;-)). Thankfully, the rocking stopped shortly after it began and I relaxed. However, about nine minutes later, there was another tremor- but it was much smaller than the first so I figured it must be the aftershocks. I was a little freaked out by the experience and somewhat dizzy afterward. But, it was cool to experience an earthquake! I'm glad that the earthquake wasn't very severe. Metta, James #66584 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Thu Dec 28, 2006 7:42 pm Subject: Re: Cetasikas' study corner 613- Wholesome Deeds(j) rjkjp1 > > Howard: > > The idea of not putting into practice the Dhamma until it has > been > > studied like a scholar for ages is an error, in my opinion - a grave > error. > >__________ Dear Howard I just saw this in a post by Sukin. Not sure if I am missing the context, but just want to let you know that I don't see it that way. I think some people believe that you should be sitting down and concentrating on some object for as long a period of time as possible - and that this is what real practice is. However, patipatti is actually the arising and developing of the mental factors of panna (wisdom) and associated factors. Concentration - ekagatta cetasika- arises with akusala and kusala- thus it is very easy to develop concentration. What is not so easy, and indeed why the Buddha hestitated to teach, is the factor of panna, wisdom. Venerable Upavanna was one of the Buddha's attendants before Ananda. He asked the Buddha (Samyutta, salayanata vagga 70 p.1154 Bodhi)"in what way is the Dhamma directly visible (sanditthiko Dhamma), immediate…to be personally experienced by the wise? "Here, Upavana, having seen a form with the eye a bhikkhu experiences the form as well as lust for the form. He understands that lust for the forms exists internally thus: `there is in me lust for forms internally.' Since that is so Upavana the Dhamma is directly visible, immediate…"" Thus the way of vipassana is to understand the present moment – even if that is craving. When craving or any hindrance is known as anatta, a little bit of ignorance is overcome: the conditioned nature of craving is seen. This is the way and it doesn't depend on trying to concentrate, it can happen anytime, even by those who study the Dhamma seriously, provided there is enough right understanding. Robert #66585 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Dec 28, 2006 9:04 pm Subject: Re: Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 scottduncan2 Dear James, Look at us discussing! J: "Thanks for only one question. You saved my last nerve! ;-))" As I hoped, now use it well.. J: "AN 109 "The Rapture of Seclusion":..." This is the 'Piitisutta.m'. In the Paali, I think it is important to note, the phrase 'a noble disciple enters and dwells in the rapture of seclusion' is (I think): "...sammaye ariyasaavako paviveha.m piiti.m upasampajja vihareyaamaati..." The Buddha may have been approached by a lot of householders but I think he was suggesting that they wonder about how they, householders, could possibly enter and dwell in the rapture of seclusion *since* they are *only* householders. The term 'ariyasaavako' means Noble 'Disciple'. 'Saavaka', according to Nyanatiloka, is "'hearer', i.e. 'disciple', [and] refers in a restricted sense [to the] mostly ariya-saavaka 'noble disciple', only to the 8 kinds of Noble Disciples ariya-puggala...these have realised on the 8 stages of nobility i.e. the 4 supra-mundane paths and the 4 supra-mundane fruitions of these paths." I would suggest that the Buddha is referring to sotaapannas, sakadaagaamis, etc. when he discusses who does the entering into jhaana. I would suggest he is teaching the householders to consider the possibility of someday themselves experiencing the Path and its Fruit. At such a point, I think, the conditions might be better for the attainment of the first and second jhaana. I am unsure of this, but put it forward for the scrutiny of all. Sincerely, Scott. #66586 From: "Leo" Date: Thu Dec 28, 2006 6:25 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] what can be the right balance leoaive > Here is a link to Google. In the searchbox type 'sri lanka map' and > you'll get a choice of websites (the Lonely Planet link clearly shows > Adam's Peak). > http://www.google.com > > If you want to know where Sri Lanka is, type 'world map' in the > searchbox, then search within one of the links. > > Jon Hi That is Peak which is in south Western part. Originally I was concern with the hill which is somewhere in eastern part of country. Do you know anything about that footstep? Leo #66587 From: "Joop" Date: Fri Dec 29, 2006 12:46 am Subject: New Year (was: Re: earthquake jwromeijn Hallo Sarah, James, all Because I'm some days in a cabib without computer I hope your life without internet will be ok, Sarah. Perhaps you can write such long and beautifil messages as James did, and post them later.And have a good time in Bangkok (perhaps you can sit quiet every day there in silence for half an hour or an hour, doing vipassana meditation) Gelukkig Nieuwjaar (Happy New Year) to all Metta Joop #66588 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Dec 29, 2006 12:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 upasaka_howard Hi, Scott (and James) - In a message dated 12/29/06 12:08:39 AM Eastern Standard Time, scduncan@... writes: > I would suggest that the Buddha is referring to sotaapannas, > sakadaagaamis, etc. when he discusses who does the entering into > jhaana. I would suggest he is teaching the householders to consider > the possibility of someday themselves experiencing the Path and its > Fruit. At such a point, I think, the conditions might be better for > the attainment of the first and second jhaana. > ===================== Perhaps you are not speaking generally, but in case you are: I'm not aware of the Buddha ever saying that entering the jhanas is only possible for ariyans. And it is false that worldlings cannot enter the jhanas. But perhaps you're not asserting that. Please correct me if I misunderstood you. With metta, Howard #66589 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Dec 29, 2006 12:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasikas' study corner 613- Wholesome Deeds(j) upasaka_howard Hi, Robert - In a message dated 12/29/06 5:52:02 AM Eastern Standard Time, rjkjp1@... writes: > >>Howard: > >> The idea of not putting into practice the Dhamma until it > has > >been > >>studied like a scholar for ages is an error, in my opinion - a > grave > >error. > > > >__________ > Dear Howard > I just saw this in a post by Sukin. Not sure if I am missing the > context, but just want to let you know that I don't see it that way. > I think some people believe that you should be sitting down and > concentrating on some object for as long a period of time as > possible - and that this is what real practice is. -------------------------------------------- Howard: I'm not one of those people, Robert. I think all of one's life is, properly handled, practice. (As the Tibetans say, "See all sounds as mantra.") Generally, I see Dhamma practice as complex and multifaceted, and I view hearing the Dhamma and deeply contemplating it as basic to that practice. -------------------------------------------- > > However, patipatti is actually the arising and developing of the > mental factors of panna (wisdom) and associated factors. > Concentration - ekagatta cetasika- arises with akusala and kusala- > thus it is very easy to develop concentration. What is not so easy, > and indeed why the Buddha hestitated to teach, is the factor of > panna, wisdom. > > Venerable Upavanna was one of the Buddha's attendants before Ananda. > He asked the Buddha (Samyutta, salayanata vagga 70 p.1154 Bodhi)"in > what way is the Dhamma directly visible (sanditthiko Dhamma), > immediate…to be personally experienced by the wise? > "Here, Upavana, having seen a form with the eye a bhikkhu experiences > the form as well as lust for the form. He understands that lust for > the forms exists internally thus: `there is in me lust for forms > internally.' Since that is so Upavana the Dhamma is directly > visible, immediate…"" > > Thus the way of vipassana is to understand the present moment – even > if that is craving. When craving or any hindrance is known as anatta, > a little bit of ignorance is overcome: the conditioned nature of > craving is seen. > -------------------------------------- Howard: That is the core of the practice, I believe. --------------------------------------- This is the way and it doesn't depend on trying to > > concentrate, it can happen anytime, even by those who study the > Dhamma seriously, provided there is enough right understanding. ---------------------------------------- Howard: Meditative cultivation makes the mental faculties far more effective and is supportive of the arising of insight. IMO, it is a serious error to dismiss it. --------------------------------------- > Robert > > =================== With metta, Howard #66590 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Dec 29, 2006 6:37 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 scottduncan2 Dear Howard, Thanks for the question: H: "Perhaps you are not speaking generally, but in case you are: I'm not aware of the Buddha ever saying that entering the jhanas is only possible for ariyans. And it is false that worldlings cannot enter the jhanas. But perhaps you're not asserting that. Please correct me if I misunderstood you. I am only referring to the sutta given by James, the Piitisutta.m. I like to look at the Paali when I study a sutta. In this case it is clear that Anaathapi.n.dika is a householder (gahapati); it is clear that he was accompanied by 500 lay followers (upaasakasate). The wording and punctuation of the second paragraph is interesting. For example, when the Buddha tells the householders how they should train themselves, the phrase is enclosed in single quotation marks - apparently a quote within a quote. To me this sets the whole phrase apart within the context of the Buddha's whole exhortation. Given the above, it seems to me that the Buddha is telling them to ask themselves: 'How can we enter and dwell from time to time in the rapture of seclusion?'. He didn't say, in this case: 'Enter and dwell from time to time in the rapture of seclusion.' It is then the Venerable Saariputta who praises the Buddha for the statement and goes on to discuss the 'noble disciple' (ariyasaavaka) who 'enters and dwells in the rapture of seclusion'. The Buddha repeats the words of Saariputta. I hope I was clear being tentative in my suggestions. Why are these distinctions made clear in the text, that is, those between 'gahapato', 'upaasako', and 'ariyasaavako'? I'm no Paali scholar either (poor spelling will attest). I don't see the sutta as a ringing endorsement of jhaana for householders. I'm hoping for a bit of clarification regarding the wording. Sincerely, Scott. #66591 From: "nidive" Date: Fri Dec 29, 2006 7:14 am Subject: Re: Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 nidive Hi Scott, > I am only referring to the sutta given by James, the Piitisutta.m. > I like to look at the Paali when I study a sutta. In this case it > is clear that Anaathapi.n.dika is a householder (gahapati); it is > clear that he was accompanied by 500 lay followers (upaasakasate). > > The wording and punctuation of the second paragraph is interesting. > For example, when the Buddha tells the householders how they should > train themselves, the phrase is enclosed in single quotation marks - > apparently a quote within a quote. To me this sets the whole phrase > apart within the context of the Buddha's whole exhortation. > > Given the above, it seems to me that the Buddha is telling them to > ask themselves: 'How can we enter and dwell from time to time in the > rapture of seclusion?'. He didn't say, in this case: 'Enter and > dwell from time to time in the rapture of seclusion.' I like the way you analyse this sutta. It is clear to me that the Buddha was telling the householders to train themselves by constantly pondering on 'HOW they can enter & dwell from time to time in the rapture of seclusion'. I see this as an exhortation by the Buddha to householders to leave the dusty household life and go forth into the homeless life as a bhikkhu. He wasn't telling them to enter and dwell from time to time in the rapture of seclusion in capacity as householders. Jhanas are not required for the path of stream-entry and once-return, so most householders in the Buddha's time are only stream-enterers and once-returners. Anagamis such as Citta the householder are few in number due to the need for perfect concentration offered by the attainment of at least the first jhana. Swee Boon #66592 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Dec 29, 2006 2:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 upasaka_howard Hi, Scott - Thanks for the reply. It is clear. :-) With metta, Howard #66593 From: "nidive" Date: Fri Dec 29, 2006 7:39 am Subject: Re: Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 nidive Hi Scott again, > Whenever, Lord, a noble disciple enters and dwells in the rapture > of seclusion, on that occasion these five things come to him: (1) > Whatever pain and grief there is connected with sensual desire does > not exist on that occasion; (2) whatever pleasure and joy there is > connected with sensual desire does not exist on that occasion; It is interesting and fascinating to note also that the first two things mentioned are connected with sensual desire. We can safely assume that most of the householders including Anathapindika are stream-enterers and once-returners. Hence they are still defiled with sensual desire. It is my opinion that the attainment of the jhanas is absolutely necessary for the abandoning of sensual desire, which is why the Buddha is exhorting these householders to leave the household life. The pleasures of the jhanas is a very strong substitute for the pleasures of sensuality and it is highly recommended by the Buddha. -------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.26.0.than.html "And what constitutes a monk's pleasure? There is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities — enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. With the fading of rapture he remains in equanimity, mindful & alert, and physically sensitive of pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This constitutes a monk's pleasure. -------------------------------------------------------------------- We all need pleasures, don't we? Even if one is a monk who is taint- free. If one can't indulge in sensual pleasures, then indulgence in jhanic pleasures is a highly recommended alternative, although one may be stuck as an anagami without further breakthrough if delight for jhanic pleasures is not overcome. Swee Boon #66594 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Dec 29, 2006 2:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 upasaka_howard Hi, Swee Boon - In a message dated 12/29/06 10:46:42 AM Eastern Standard Time, nidive@... writes: > It is my opinion that the attainment of the jhanas is absolutely > necessary for the abandoning of sensual desire, which is why the > Buddha is exhorting these householders to leave the household life. > > The pleasures of the jhanas is a very strong substitute for the > pleasures of sensuality and it is highly recommended by the Buddha. > > ==================== An excellent "insight", IMO! Actually, not based mainly on suttas but on my own experience, I have concluded exactly the same. :-) With metta, Howard #66595 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Dec 29, 2006 8:37 am Subject: Re: Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 scottduncan2 Hi Swee Boon, Thanks for the reply: SB: "...It is clear to me that the Buddha was telling the householders to train themselves by constantly pondering on 'HOW they can enter & dwell from time to time in the rapture of seclusion'. I see this as an exhortation by the Buddha to householders to leave the dusty household life and go forth into the homeless life as a bhikkhu. He wasn't telling them to enter and dwell from time to time in the rapture of seclusion in capacity as householders." This is along the same lines as I was thinking. SB: "Jhanas are not required for the path of stream-entry and once-return, so most householders in the Buddha's time are only stream-enterers and once-returners. Anagamis such as Citta the householder are few in number due to the need for perfect concentration offered by the attainment of at least the first jhana." I'm sorry, I don't know about the 'status' of 'most householders' in the Buddha's time. Also I'm not convinced that jhaana is necessarily 'required' at all. I am convinced, however, by lines of reasoning which point to the difficulty in a householder's ability to achieve this 'perfect concentration' and hence get into jhaana as easily as all that. There are many suggestions that those alive at the time of the Buddha were ones of such accumulations that things possible to them may not be for us. I personally want to make sure of what is possible so the energy that arises for the pursuit of 'practise' is right and is accompanied by 'right view'. Sincerely, Scott. #66596 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Dec 29, 2006 9:09 am Subject: Re: Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 scottduncan2 Hi again, Swee Boon, Yeah, this is interesting: SB: "Whenever, Lord, a noble disciple enters and dwells in the rapture of seclusion, on that occasion these five things come to him: (1)Whatever pain and grief there is connected with sensual desire does not exist on that occasion; (2) whatever pleasure and joy there is connected with sensual desire does not exist on that occasion..." This, to me, is a function of jhaana: the suppression of hindrances due to being 'in' jhaana. SB: "It is my opinion that the attainment of the jhanas is absolutely necessary for the abandoning of sensual desire, which is why the Buddha is exhorting these householders to leave the household life." This is not clear to me. What do you mean by 'abandoning'? As you say below, I think, jhaana is pleasurable and jhaana appears to be an object of desire. I am not under the impression that jhaana has the force to 'abandon' sensual desire; 'suppress' yes, 'abandon' no. I am under the impression that pa~n~na, in the end, performs the penetrative function which conditions 'abandonment'. And yes, I think the gist of the Buddha's statement was probably more likely directed to going forth (although not entirely) and not to jhaana as a vehicle. Is not the fruit of jhaana attainment, given the right conditions, rebirth in higher realms according to level of jhaana? SB: "The pleasures of the jhanas is a very strong substitute for the pleasures of sensuality and it is highly recommended by the Buddha... We all need pleasures, don't we? Even if one is a monk who is taint- free. If one can't indulge in sensual pleasures, then indulgence in jhanic pleasures is a highly recommended alternative, although one may be stuck as an anagami without further breakthrough if delight for jhanic pleasures is not overcome." We all cling to pleasure, for sure. This is not persuasive, to me, in recommending the cultivation jhaana as a pursuit. Pleasure is pleasure. Being one of limited abilities and accumulations, I don't wish to pursue pleasure, whether higher or not, when it seems to me that it is not necessary or sufficient for the goal. Just my opinion, mind you... What do you think? Sincerely, Scott. #66597 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Dec 29, 2006 10:05 am Subject: Letters on Vipassana IV, 7. nilovg Dear friends, Patience and perseverance are needed for the development of right understanding. Life passes so rapidly, we are advancing in years and we do not know what our next life will be like. We do not know whether we shall have the opportunity to develop paññå again, and therefore, should we not speed up our practice? We all may be inclined to think in this way, but are we aware of such a moment of thinking? If we are not mindful of it as a conditioned reality we are neglecting the Dhamma, not profiting from the treasures of the teachings in full. We are so absorbed in the stories we are thinking of and are forgetful of the reality of citta which thinks. Thinking is a reality arising because of conditions, it is non-self. Lokuttara citta cannot arise all of a sudden, insight has to be developed in stages, on and on. It has to be developed just now, not at some other time. Defilements are anattå, it is not possible to get rid of them quickly, they arise because they have been accumulated for aeons, they are conditioned. They can be realized as nåma when they appear. If we get to know them as they are there is already a beginning of a cure, paññå does its work. Paññå is the most important factor because it is paññå which can eradicate ignorance and wrong view. There is no need to think so much of effort, volition and concentration. Don't we usually think of effort, volition and concentration with an idea of self who wants to exert control? We should carefully examine ourselves as to this point because such an idea hinders the development of right understanding. We may not attain enlightenment in this life, but what has been learnt is never lost. It has been accumulated and it can appear in another life. A moment of right understanding now, of our natural life, is a precious moment. It is more valuable than thinking of the future. We read in the sutta "The Sphere of Sense"(Kindred Sayings I) which was quoted above, that the Buddha "was instructing, enlightening, inciting and inspiring the monks by a sermon on the six spheres of contact". This wording is also used in the previous sutta "The Bowl", and there the commentary (the Saratthapakåsiní, Thai edition, p. 328) gives an explanation. The Buddha was inciting the monks so that they would apply the Dhamma. In this connection the Pali word "samådåna" is used, which means undertaking what one considers worth while. The Buddha preached to the monks so that they would consider the Dhamma and have right understanding. He instructed them so that they would have energy (ussaha) and perseverance for the application of the Dhamma. The Buddha taught about all the realities of daily life and these can be verified. The commentary explains that the monks were inspired, gladdened and purified because of the benefit they acquired from the Dhamma. ****** Nina. #66598 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Dec 29, 2006 10:02 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily Life, 164 nilovg Dear friends, When one continues to be mindful of breathing, the in-breaths and out- breaths become more and more subtle and thus harder to notice. We just read in the quotation that strong mindfulness and understanding are necessary here. Not only in vipassanå, but also in samatha, mindfulness, sati, and understanding, paññå, are necessary, but the object of awareness in samatha is different from the object of awareness in vipassanå. In samatha the object of awareness is one among the forty meditation subjects and the aim is the development of calm. In vipassanå the object of awareness is any nåma or rúpa which appears at the present moment through one of the six doors, and the aim is to eradicate the wrong view of self and eventually all defilements. Through samatha defilements can be temporarily subdued, but the latent tendencies of defilements are not eradicated; when there are conditions for akusala cittas they arise again. ******* Nina. #66599 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Dec 29, 2006 11:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma in Daily lIfe 163 nilovg Hi Mike, Thank you for your good wishes, and all our warmest wishes to you and Rose, Nina. Op 29-dec-2006, om 0:36 heeft m. nease het volgende geschreven: > Very timely, thanks very much and > > Gelukkig NieuwJaar,