#68000 From: connie Date: Mon Feb 5, 2007 7:48 pm Subject: Toodles! nichiconn Hi again, colette! > > Not sure what you mean by domination. Off the cuff, I'd say the > tilakkhana and four perversions might rule. colette: "tilakkhana" and the "four perversions" damn, some more research. What the heck are they? but you say "...might rule." Well, in that case, whatever those two things happen to be I've got a hierarchy, and I've got a position which I can observe and apply different techniques, theories, etc., to. I'll get back to ya after a little meditation on that one. connie: there's a saying that you can boil down the buddha's teaching to nine profitable and nine unprofitable side terms. the four perversions stand opposite the four foundations of mindfulness. as for the other three, they are the universal sisterhood (namely, anicca, anatta & dukkha) of all conditioned "things". That would be the status quo, > too, i believe. colette: oooh, so it's a resemblence, a mirror image of the status quo. Now I've got even more info, and a better picture. connie: status quo - just the way things occur according to the natural orders, "going with the flow". i don't know about resemblance, but i smell a nimitta here, and lots of construction! > > An avowed lable lover myself, i can't say enough about The Pitaka > Disclosure. :) colette: profiling is so much easier for the simpleton on the run. It also makes magik that much more fun! Notice I tend toward an Aleister Crowley spelling of the word magic or magick or in MY case "magik". connie: All the more reason for me to believe you'd really get into the classical abhidhamma texts. Or The Guide or any of the other wonderful books Nina's > writings / TA Sujin's talks quote and discuss. colette: yea, nina's got some stuff out there that I don't have much time to get to but what I do get from her Vipassana site is well received. Thanx Nina. I'm sure if I had the time I could gain from her material but alas.... connie: is the library the only place you have computer access? could you listen to mp3 recordings or read stuff off a cd if I sent them to some street address or po box? if i were nicer i'd offer some of the books i haven't given away yet, but alas! i'm not that kind, c. #68001 From: TGrand458@... Date: Mon Feb 5, 2007 3:11 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions TGrand458@... Hi Herman First of all, I'd stay away from whatever it is you're smoking. ;-) In a message dated 2/5/2007 3:48:24 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, hhofmeister@... writes: Hi All, It is often said here at dsg that all phenomena are conditioned/conditioned/caused. Of course this would mean that view are caused, including the view that all phenomena are caused. My question is, is a view, which is itself the coming together of many conditions/causes, a new condition in it's own right, or no more than the sum of it's constituent conditions? TG: I'd say neither. It is not a "new" condition, nor is it the "sum" of other conditions. It is actually a "displacement" of all the energies brought to bear to generate the subsequent condition (view) in question. Of course, it could be looked at as "new" or a "sum," but both of those outlooks, for me, do not account for the "fluidity" and lack of essence of conditions. To put it another way, can the coming together of conditions produce a condition which is different in nature to it's component conditions. TG: No. But this needs to be thought of deeply. I.E., the "nature" of component conditions may not be what we'd think they are on the surface or may be more complex than they appear. As an example of what I'm getting at, if you put either hydrogen or oxygen on a fire, the fire will increase. But if you combine hydrogen and oxygen to make water, and put it on a fire, the fire will go out. Hydrogen and oxygen in combination are different in quality to hydrogen and oxygen on their own. TG: I'm not a chemist, but obviously a certain configuration of these elements are able to interact as coalescence/water. Each of the 4 Great Elements are relative to the other three. In relation to views, much effort is expended to avoid/deny certain views, like atta views. Of course, the view would be that that avoidance/denial is also caused. TG: Yes But does an atta view become a new condition, capable of creating a chain of causality that it's component causes cannot bring about? TG: This question again pits a separation of cause and effect that I think cannot be separated. However, based on the conditions that generate the (self) view and the view thus generated, other outcomes then cascade forth...such as killing, stealing, etc. (For me, the way to deal with anatta vs atta and to keep it clear is not to focus on them, but to focus on causality. None of these things "have their own power or determining effect," its just natural forces unfolding.) If not, what is it that recognises and tries to avoid / deny views if not already an atta view? TG: Human endeavor is based on feeling. Efforts seek after pleasantness and avoid unpleasantness. Wisdom may arise in an effort to avoid unpleasantness. Wisdom is detached from self view to some extent or another. Knowledge/insight is "what recognizes and tries to avoid." It is CONDITIONS that avoid/deny...if and when such avoidance and denial takes places. The appearance of a Buddha, for example, increases those conditions. Your question may presuppose that atta is a framework for the attempt to avoid atta. This would make it seem impossible to accomplish the task. Indeed it makes it near impossible. That's why the objectivity of mindfulness needs strict application in order for insight to realize anatta. If anatta is the only reality, how can atta view be causal of anything? TG: The surface appearance of things does not reveal anatta. Things appear to have "their own essence" because change and conditionality are somewhat stealthy. Even those of us pursuing this knowledge are most of the time blinded by the apparent static-ness of states. This view is atta view and ignorance. In a world where all is anatta, atta view arises because minds do not pay attention to impermanence, affliction, no-self. Minds "ignore" the actuality of conditionality: not intentionally, they just don't KNOW any better. Atta is associated with ignorance. They have very powerful causal consequences and propel human action. The 12 Fold Chain encapsulates the process. Kind Regards Herman I hope these comments had some relevance to your questions. TG #68002 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Feb 5, 2007 8:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Some Idle Thoughts on Nothing lbidd2 Hi Herman, H: "It seems to me that in analysing a phenomenon, you are destroying the phenomenon in the process. Neither mum analysed into dhammas, or dhammas synthesised and reconstituted into mum, are mum. Whatever is experienced is a consequence of what method is used to experience it. The reality of what is seen through a microscope, does not come into play when looking with eyes unaided, or with a telescope. IMO" L: I agree. The mum we know and love is the mum of our attachment. And that's why we aren't arahants. Larry #68003 From: connie Date: Mon Feb 5, 2007 8:45 pm Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (17) nichiconn Dear Sisters-Enthusiasts, Except for the alternate verse translation, the following English portions are Pruitt's on verse # 17 - Dhammaatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa or The commentary on the verse of Therii Dhammaa: Pi.n.dapaata.m caritvaanaati dhammaaya theriyaa gaathaa. Ayampi purimabuddhesu kataadhikaaraa tattha tattha bhave viva.t.tuupanissaya.m kusala.m upacinitvaa sambhatapu~n~nasambhaaraa imasmi.m buddhuppaade saavatthiya.m kulaghare nibbattitvaa vayappattaa patiruupassa saamikassa geha.m gantvaa saasane pa.tiladdhasaddhaa pabbajitukaamaa hutvaa saamikena ananu~n~naataa pacchaa saamike kaala"nkate pabbajitvaa vipassanaaya kamma.m karontii ekadivasa.m bhikkhaaya caritvaa vihaara.m aagacchantii paripatitvaa tameva aaramma.na.m katvaa vipassana.m va.d.dhetvaa saha pa.tisambhidaahi arahatta.m patvaa- Udaanavasena ima.m gaatha.m abhaasi. I wandered for alms is the verse of Theri Dhammaa. She too performed meritorious deeds under previous Buddhas and accumulated good [actions] in various lives as [her] basis for release. Through her accumulation of a store of merit, she was born during this Buddha era in the home of a [good] family in Saavatthi. When she came of age she went to the home of a suitable husband. She gained faith in the teaching and wanted to go forth. Her husband did not permit it. Afterwards, her husband died, and she went forth. She devoted herself to the gaining of insight. One day, after going on her food round, on coming back to her dwelling, she fell down, and making that her support [for contemplation], she made her insight to grow and attained Arahatship together with the [four] discriminations. And she spoke this verse as her solemn utterance: 17. "Pi.n.dapaata.m caritvaana, da.n.damolubbha dubbalaa; vedhamaanehi gattehi, tattheva nipati.m chamaa; disvaa aadiinava.m kaaye, atha citta.m vimucci me"ti.- Pruitt: 17. I wandered for alms, leaning on a stick, weak. With trembling limbs, I fell to the ground in that very spot. Seeing peril in the body, then my mind was completely released. Mrs R-D: Far had I wandered for my daily food; Weary with shaking limbs I reached my rest, Leaning upon my staff, when even there I fell to earth. - Lo! all the misery Besetting this poor mortal frame lay bare To inward vision. *115 Prone the body lay; The heart of me rose up in liberty. (17) Tattha pi.n.dapaata.m caritvaana, da.n.damolubbhaati pi.n.dapaatatthaaya ya.t.thi.m upatthambhena nagare vicaritvaa bhikkhaaya aahi.n.ditvaa. Chamaati chamaaya.m bhuumiya.m, paadaana.m avasena bhuumiya.m nipatinti attho. Disvaa aadiinava.m kaayeti asubhaaniccadukkhaanattataadiihi naanappakaarehi sariire dosa.m pa~n~naacakkhunaa disvaa. 17. There I wandered for alms, leaning on a stick, weak means: with a staff as a support she walked about the town, wandering about on her food round. To the ground (chamaa) means on the ground (chamaaya.m), to the earth; the meaning is: "I fell to the earth because of lack of control over my feet." Seeing peril in the body means: having seen with the eye of wisdom the flaws of the body due to its various shapes, beginning with being ugly, impermanent, misery and no-self. Atha citta.m vimucci meti aadiinavaanupassanaaya parato pavattehi nibbidaanupassanaadiihi vikkhambhanavasena mama citta.m kilesehi vimuccitvaa puna maggaphalehi yathaakkama.m samucchedavasena ceva pa.tippassaddhivasena ca sabbaso vimucci vimutta.m, na daanissaa vimocetabba.m atthiiti. Idameva cassaa a~n~naabyaakara.na.m ahosiiti. Dhammaatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa ni.t.thitaa. Then my mind was completely released (atha citta.m vimucci) means: my mind (mama citta.m) was completely released, free, having been completely released from the other existing defilements by the realization of danger and the contemplation of disenchantment, etc, and through discarding, and again through the paths and fruition states, one after the other, and by means of complete cutting off and calming. Now there are no more of these to be freed. And this was her declaration of perfect knowledge. Here ends the commentary of the verse of Therii Dhammaa. ::::::::::::::::: peace, connie #68004 From: James Stewart Date: Mon Feb 5, 2007 5:43 pm Subject: Re:Are all the bad things that happen to us results of our deeds? samvega_pasada Hello everyone! My name is James, hereto I have been a mere lurker, basking in the insight others have to offer. :) I shall make this my first contribution I think. Also, I noticed that there already seems to be a James posting here, so I can go by Jim. The Buddha did in fact outline FIVE forces in the universe which were responsible for all that is experienced. Only one of them being Kamma. These five orders, called niyamas are: 1. /Kamma Niyama/, order of act and result, e.g., desirable and undesirable acts produce corresponding good and bad results. 2. /Utu Niyama/, physical (inorganic) order, e.g., seasonal phenomena of winds and rains. Earthquakes, storms, and other physical events. 3. /Bija Niyama/, order of germs or seeds (physical organic order); e.g., rice produced from rice-seed, sugary taste from sugar cane or honey etc. The scientific theory of cells and genes and the physical similarity of twins may be ascribed to this order. 4. /Citta Niyama/, order of mind or psychic law, e.g., processes of consciousness /(Citta vithi),/ power of mind etc. 5. /Dhamma Niyama/, order of the norm, e.g., the natural phenomena occurring at the advent of a Bodhisatta in his last birth, gravitation, etc. /Every mental or physical phenomenon could be explained by these all-embracing five orders or processes which are laws in themselves. Kamma is, therefore, only one of the five orders that prevail in the universe. It is a law in itself, but it does not thereby follow that there should be a law-giver. Ordinary laws of nature, like gravitation, need no law-giver. It operates in its own field without the intervention of an external independent ruling agency./ I am startled to find the complete lack of literature in the english language with regard to the Niyama's, and am surprised after seaching for some that I ever came across any myself. It's no wonder that so many western Buddhists have such a fatalistic totalitarian view of Kamma as a force. The primary source of interest would be the Abhidhamma Sangaha, available in book form as Bhikku Bodhi's /A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma/. It is vital, in my opinion, to the Buddhist world view that these 5 orders be known, else we become in danger of holding deluded viewpoints such as "Everyone who died in this or that disaster deserved it" -James #68005 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Mon Feb 5, 2007 9:42 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Mystery of Consciousness christine_fo... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > > Hi Christine, > > On 06/02/07, Christine Forsyth wrote: > > The Mystery of Consciousness ~ Time Magazine (Health and Science) ~ > > Fri. Jan 19 2007. > > http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/...1580394,00.html > > > > The link is a dud, I'm afraid. How's things oterwise? Everything is > groovy here :-) > > Kind Regards > > > Herman > Hello Herman, I'm fine thanks H. ~ only been working three days a week for the last six months to help my brother care for our mother. It's been great ~ we've actually got to know each other as persons rather than me always being twelve years old. :-) I expect to go back to full-time work in about eight weeks ~ either that or starve, after having my house re-possessed. But it's been worth the financial cost. :-) Try this link: The Mystery of Consciousness (a Time Magazine article) http://tinyurl.com/3ck5qe I'd like your opinion before I tackle RobK again. :-) If it doesn't work, I'll have to link you to E-sangha. I hope your lady wife is well also (I do read dsg :-)) metta Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- #68006 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Mon Feb 5, 2007 9:52 pm Subject: Re: The Mystery of Consciousness christine_fo... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" > wrote: > > > > The Mystery of Consciousness ~ Time Magazine (Health and Science) ~ > > Fri. Jan 19 2007. > > http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/...1580394,00.html > > > > Don't you think that this is a wonderful 7 page article? :-) > > > > ____ > Dear Christine > From my perspective it is crude materialism, extrem wrong view. > Pinker writes: "" neuroscientists agree on many features of both of > them, and the feature they find least controversial is the one that > many people outside the field find the most shocking. Francis Crick > called it "the astonishing hypothesis"--the idea that our thoughts, > sensations, joys and aches consist entirely of physiological activity > in the tissues of the brain. Consciousness does not reside in an > ethereal soul that uses the brain like a PDA; consciousness is the > activity of the brain."" > > What he believes is that all consciouness, feelings, thoughts are > purely material. > Robert > Hello Robert, Could you explain more fully with regard to the whole article, where it is wrong, what it is that Theravada teaches Consciousness consists of, and what the mechanics are of its operation? I think the article is intent on ruling out the immortal soul or anything which lasts, more than anything else Hopefully this link works: http://tinyurl.com/3ck5qe metta Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- #68007 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Feb 5, 2007 9:55 pm Subject: Re:Are all the bad things that happen to us results of our deeds? philofillet Hi James Welcome, and thanks for this very helpful debut. I had heard it, but forgot. I would like to do some reading on them - will go to the Copmrehensive Manual of Abhidhamma tout de suite. I imagine The Survey of Paramattha Dhammas by Sujin B. also has something on it. Perhaps Nina or someone could post it. Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, James Stewart wrote: > > Hello everyone! > > My name is James, hereto I have been a mere lurker, basking in the > insight others have to offer. :) I shall make this my first > contribution I think. Also, I noticed that there already seems to be a > James posting here, so I can go by Jim. > > The Buddha did in fact outline FIVE forces in the universe which were > responsible for all that is experienced. Only one of them being Kamma. > These five orders, called niyamas are: > > #68008 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Feb 5, 2007 10:15 pm Subject: Re: B.Bodhi article (was: Arahants and compassion) philofillet Hi Connie > connie: -- faith. phil's disgusted by the display of faith exemplified > by the soka gakkai... I don't think it's the faith - faith is essential. It's the materialism. I had a woman who boasted about being the youngest Soka Gakkai "nun" in Japan who came to my English school drenched in brand goods, saying that her "Buddhism" (ie chanting the lotus sutra as purely as possible) guaranteed to make people rich. After class she went to Roppongi (famous nightclub area) to go dancing and get drunk. I do not jest. Fine, whatever, but the problem is that because of sects like Soka Gakkai Japanese people have been completely turned off the Dhamma, generally speaking, which is such a shame...it would help so much! >on another personal note, he might be familiar with > one of the founder's (revolutionary) views on education. No, I only know the big cheese Mr. Ikeda, who despite screwing around with the Buddha's teaching in a very naughty way *does* write excellent children's stories - one called "The Cherry Tree", illustrated by Brian Wildsmith, is a classic about healing from war. So mudita there! :) Metta, Phil #68009 From: connie Date: Mon Feb 5, 2007 10:18 pm Subject: Are all the bad things that happen to us results of our deeds? nichiconn Hi Jim-James, Phil, Colette, You might also try e-searching for the venerable Ledi Sayadaw's "The Niyama-Dipani [The Manual of Cosmic Order]" for more on 'natural law' / 'status-quo'. peace, connie #68010 From: "Leo" Date: Mon Feb 5, 2007 10:01 pm Subject: on art continued - indian poster leoaive Hi I have Indian poster of Buddha under the tree and some mountains with a snow on the back. At the same time, I remember, that some monks were affraid to go to mountains to meditate. Looks like there were some spirits living there. Buddha said it is o.k. to go there. At the same time, since Buddha said that, it had probably many trees, since it was recommended to meditate under the tree. So based on that, I can make a decision, that background of my poster should have mountains with trees, not snow. How do you look at that? Leo #68011 From: connie Date: Tue Feb 6, 2007 12:11 am Subject: Re: B.Bodhi article (was: Arahants and compassion) nichiconn Hi again, Phil, > connie: -- faith. phil's disgusted by the display of faith exemplified > by the soka gakkai... phil: I don't think it's the faith - faith is essential. It's the materialism. I had a woman who boasted about being the youngest Soka Gakkai "nun" in Japan who came to my English school drenched in brand goods, saying that her "Buddhism" (ie chanting the lotus sutra as purely as possible) guaranteed to make people rich. After class she went to Roppongi (famous nightclub area) to go dancing and get drunk. I do not jest. Fine, whatever, but the problem is that because of sects like Soka Gakkai Japanese people have been completely turned off the Dhamma, generally speaking, which is such a shame...it would help so much! connie: "chanting for cadillacs" as the saying goes! Some say it's the fault of American and Chinese politicians that the Dalai Lama has the audiences he does and is generally taken as "the" voice of (Tibetan, if not all) Buddhism, as it is popularly (mis)understood... So - these vehicles of 'reformed buddhism' are all the more reason to jump up and down ranting "paa.li, paa.li" but as TA said in one of the recordings "can you help it? not to be frustrated?" - I don't think i've mangled that too badly... it spoke to my saviour complex (again!), anyway: "Who can change another's mind?" and yet another of the endless 'back to the moment reminders', what's going on in my world? Actually, i think the (sgi) 'faith' is an example of humanism(?) more than anything else, and there i go profiling again but ... > on another personal note, he might be familiar with > one of the founder's (revolutionary) views on education. phil: No, I only know the big cheese Mr. Ikeda, who despite screwing around with the Buddha's teaching in a very naughty way *does* write excellent children's stories - one called "The Cherry Tree", illustrated by Brian Wildsmith, is a classic about healing from war. So mudita there! :) connie: ... Daisaku (to be p.c.) Ikeda's gang is a bona-fide UN NGO. I could never read his poetry, but yeah, that book was really nice... also a photo exhibit of his I'm vaguely recalling. peace, connie ps: Ikeda: << The second of the six paramitas is the keeping of precepts. In Buddhism "precept" is construed as "to stem injustice and to stop evil," meaning to extirpate evil karma created by thought, word and deed, and to interdict Buddhists from all vices. Precepts were originally laid down as norms for those who practiced Buddhism. But since priests who renounced the secular life represented those who practiced Buddhism in its early days, precepts were actually laid down as rules to regulate their collective life. That is why they are generally complicated and cover all aspects of life. As the ages passed and situations changed, people began to find it impossible to carry out the precepts. In fact, they gradually became more harmful to human nature than beneficial. This is why Hinayana Buddhism, which is mainly predicated on precepts, passed into oblivion in the Middle and Latter Days of the Law in China and Japan. >> ;) #68012 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Tue Feb 6, 2007 12:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Smiles & Laughs (was: Meditation (again)) ken_aitch Hi Sarah, Thank you for noticing I was gone. :-) There are two tricky subjects in this post that I'm not really qualified to comment on. Wait until I finally get around to those UP's. Meanwhile, I might comment on kamma and vipaka instead. I know it is being discussed on another thread somewhere, but I haven't caught up with all the posts yet. My computer woes aren't really vipaka, are they? There does seem to be a recurring theme in my life in which mechanical devices fail to work FOR NO APPARENT REASON! No one, for example, has been able to explain why the Pentium chip in my computer has melted down four times. It was replaced under warranty the first three times, but now I am having mercy on Intel and chucking whole computer out. It's the same with my broadband connection - none of the experts can tell me why it fails to work. Then, when everyone has given up, it fixes itself! I know these stories are not vipaka. Vipaka is a fleeting moment of consciousness - of seeing or hearing etc. There are suttas that seem to connect kamma stories with vipaka stories, but they are not to be understood in the conventional sense. For example, there is a sutta in which a crow flies into burning straw and dies painfully. The Buddha explains that the crow had formerly been a farmer who burnt a cow to death. However, we must always remember the Buddha's warning not to be caught out by conventional language. Vipaka is actually a fleeting moment of paramattha dhammas. So is kamma. But the two are connected. They are connected in a way that is similar to the way the story of a tortured cow is connected to the story of a suffering crow. It's the sort of connection that, according to the Commentaries, would be recognized by `the average merchant or local official.' I think that was the point of the sutta. Enough rambling! Corrections and arguments welcome! Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Ken H, > > Hope your computer woes will be over soon for all our sakes:-). You've had > a tough computer run..... > > --- sarah abbott wrote: > > Cittas indicate a meaning with the help of the rupas involved. So we > > smile > > or laugh or make gestures - just conditioned namas and rupas. We see the > > various visible objects and sanna marks these (even obvious to animals). > > But the bodily intimation rupa itself is not visible, however. A subtle > > rupa and tricky topic. > ... > S: This was a bit garbled in (#67832). I hadn't meant to suggest that > kayavinnati (bodily intimation) was alsways involved when we smile or > laugh. We may often smile to convey a meaning, but often we smile or laugh > as a response to something we've seen or heard without any intention to > convey a meaning, I think. > > Btw, when we were in Thailand, I raised your question about whether we can > refer to 'weak seeing' which we discussed. #68013 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Feb 6, 2007 1:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Are all the bad things that happen to us results of our deeds? nilovg Dear Jim (or James S), welcome to our group. Looking at your contribution you have studied and considered the Dhamma. The notion of niyama shows us that there are many intricate conditions operating for each phnomenon that occurs. See also Larry's posting of the Visuddhimagga studies and my additions from the Tiika, the subcommentary. This mentions time and again: niyata, fixed. Cittas in aprocess arise in a certain order, citta niyama, and nobody can alter this. It shows us the nature of anattaa. Before, I posted the SN XXXVI.21, the Siivakasutta with the commentary and subcommentary, which I translated. < "Now when these ascetics and brahmans have such a doctrine and view that 'whatever a person experiences, be it pleasure, pain or neither-pain-nor-pleasure, all that is caused by previous action,' then they go beyond what they know by themselves and what is accepted as true by the world. Therefore, I say that this is wrong on the part of these ascetics and brahmans." > Conclusion of subco: < This sutta is spoken from the standpoint of worldly convention; (the feelings) arisen from bile, and so on, are designated in the manner of worldly convention. The feelings connected with the sensuous body are actually produced by kamma, but by way of the present condition there is thus this worldly convention; accepting what is thus said, it should be understood that the opponents doctrine is refuted.> We have to distinguish conventional truth and ultimate truth. Body- consciousness that experiences tangible object, pleasant or unpleasant, is always vipaaka, it cannot be changed. Kamma also needs other conditions to be able to produce result, it is very complex. Looking forward to your input, Nina. Op 6-feb-2007, om 2:43 heeft James Stewart het volgende geschreven: > Kamma is, therefore, only one of the five orders that prevail in the > universe. It is a law in itself, but it does not thereby follow that > there should be a law-giver. Ordinary laws of nature, like > gravitation, > need no law-giver. It operates in its own field without the > intervention > of an external independent ruling agency #68014 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Feb 6, 2007 2:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Are all the bad things that happen to us results of our deeds? sarahprocter... Hi James S (or Jim S?), --- James Stewart wrote: > Hello everyone! > > My name is James, hereto I have been a mere lurker, basking in the > insight others have to offer. :) I shall make this my first > contribution I think. Also, I noticed that there already seems to be a > James posting here, so I can go by Jim. .... S: That's considerate. We've also had a couple of Jim's here - Jim A and another Jim living in Korea if I recall. So pls choose whichever you prefer to be called and sign off accordingly. ... Thank you for your helpful detail and reminder about niyama. You may also like to review some past messages on the topic under 'Niyama' in 'Useful Posts' in the files section of DSG. These are the posts (mostly Nina's I believe) there, but not highlighted here - you'd need to key in the numbers on the homepage if you don't go to the files section: Niyama, Dhammaniyama (fixed order of dhammas) 26266, 27859, 30351, 61657, 62655 ********** >It is vital, in my opinion, to the Buddhist > world view that these 5 orders be known, else we become in danger of > holding deluded viewpoints such as "Everyone who died in this or that > disaster deserved it" .... S: I agree that it's important to appreciate that kamma is only one condition or one niyama - be it a very important one. Others are already responding, so I'll just welcome you here and look forward to talking to you later. Thanks again for your interesting first post. Metta, Sarah p.s Where do you live? Where have you been studying/developing your keen interest in the Dhamma? =================== #68015 From: "Phil" Date: Tue Feb 6, 2007 3:02 am Subject: Re: on art continued - indian poster philofillet Hi Leo If I were a Buddhist artist painting that subject, I would put a river in the background, with a beautiful woman with a golden pot. That way people could practice not being attracted by the beautiful woman. I heard that when the Buddha was near enlightenment, a woman brought him wonderful alms in a gold pot, or something. After he ate the alms, he went to the river and said "if this pot floats upstream I will acheive enlightenment soon" or something like that. Needless to say the pot floated upstream. So I would have that woman and that river in the background. Maybe for that artist the snow-covered mountains represented the purity of Buddha's mind. Or maybe they are just the Himalayas. I think the Bodhi tree is in the north of India, towards the Himalayas, isn't it? Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Leo" wrote: > > Hi > > I have Indian poster of Buddha under the tree and some mountains with > a snow on the back. At the same time, I remember, that some monks were > affraid to go to mountains to meditate. Looks like there were some > spirits living there. Buddha said it is o.k. to go there. At the same > time, since Buddha said that, it had probably many trees, since it was > recommended to meditate under the tree. So based on that, I can make a > decision, that background of my poster should have mountains with > trees, not snow. How do you look at that? > > Leo > #68016 From: "Joop" Date: Tue Feb 6, 2007 3:58 am Subject: Re: The Mystery of Consciousness jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > > The Mystery of Consciousness ~ Time Magazine (Health and Science) ~ > > Don't you think that this is a wonderful 7 page article? :-) > Hallo Christine, all Good to meet you here. You still very active, when I read what you told Herman. The article in Time did was no new information for me, but important for "us" (let say "us Theravadins") is the conclusion that the "self" , the atta-idea is a construction of the brains. What was interesting too was the related article about 'Time travel in the brain': something that I recognize in my vipassana-meditation (yes, there still are meditators in DSG !). A problem I have is the same problem I have with Abhidhamma, a system what I call a good - even an ultimate - individual psychology, but a poor social-psychology. Something what is in the view of Sarah an existential given: one is fundamentally alone. I have not lost the idea that one is connected to other human beings (and other sentient beings) But "the other" does not exist in my brain, or does it? This is to me another "hard problem". Metta Joop #68017 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Feb 6, 2007 4:12 am Subject: Re: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (17) scottduncan2 Dear Sisters-Enthusiasts, "One day, after going on her food round, on coming back to her dwelling, she fell down, and making that her support [for contemplation], she made her insight to grow and attained Arahatship together with the [four] discriminations. And she spoke this verse as her solemn utterance: 17. "Pi.n.dapaata.m caritvaana, da.n.damolubbha dubbalaa; vedhamaanehi gattehi, tattheva nipati.m chamaa; disvaa aadiinava.m kaaye, atha citta.m vimucci me"ti.-" I like how such ordinary events can serve as support for the liberating growth of insight. This is shown over and over again. Sincerely, Scott. #68018 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Feb 6, 2007 4:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] elements of experience sarahprocter... Hi Herman, --- Herman Hofman wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > > .... > > S: Good! So let's get on with the reading sessions!! > > .... > > Let's do it! .... S: Let's start with the dhammas appearing now. What's real as we speak, Herman? .... > > >H: But if the exercise is nibbana, a child that refuses to feed the > > > papanca beast with all manner of views deserves full marks, no? > > .... > > S: I thought you were the one who wasn't interested in the subject of > > nibbana? > > I am sorry, but that is not right. ..... S: I was thinking of the comments in the first post of your return, for a start. You wrote: "Not much news from my side. I'm still not a Buddhist, and am becoming more convinced then ever that the Third Noble Truth is more a noble belief or hope than a truth. On the other hand, the First and Second Noble Truths remain unshakeably rock-solid descriptions of the way things are, so perhaps I'm half a Buddhist. Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that half of Buddhism is verifiably precise and accurate." .... S: When you referred to nibbana as a 'noble belief or hope', I took it as indicating a scepticism or lack of interest in what the Buddha taught in this regard. Apologies if I misunderstood you. .... > >>S: If so, let's drop it because it's an unnecessary distraction to > > the task in hand. > >H: You're giving the game away here, Sarah, you are not interested in > Nibbana. Nibbana is pivotal to Buddhism. I am flabbergasted that you > describe it as an unnecessary distraction. .... S: Now it's your turn to misunderstand. I said: 'if so....'. However, I do think that it's a lot more useful to get on with the ABC - the study of presently appearing namas and rupas. So what namas and rupas are appearing now as we speak? .... > >S:(I notice you're the one who keeps raising it:-)). >H: Yes, because without it, Buddhism is nothing. .... S: Back to your opening re-introduction, I think this is getting a little Alice-in-wonderlandish......so I'm going to pass at this point:-) Metta, Sarah ======== #68019 From: James Stewart Date: Tue Feb 6, 2007 4:39 am Subject: Re: Are all the bad things that happen to us results of our deeds? samvega_pasada Thank you for directing me to the appropriate threads regarding previous discussion of the niyamas. "Where do you live? Where have you been studying/developing your keen interest in the Dhamma?" I live in Tampa FL, USA. I am primarily self studied in the Dhamma and participate minimally with the Thai and Sri Lankan communities here in Tampa. Also, I participate in the local chapter of the Buddhist Peace Fellowship to some extent and am a student of Chemistry at USF. -James S. #68020 From: "joelaltman26" Date: Tue Feb 6, 2007 5:32 am Subject: pannati and cohesion joelaltman26 friends. two (separate) point i am looking for clarification on. 1: nature of pannati. so pannati is not a paramattha dhamma, but is still dhamma. it is an object of chitta and cetasika (through mind door), that rises and falls... but it is not conditioned? what then causes it to arise? example : yesterday i backed my teacher's car into his staircase. (this i instantaneously understood as akusala vipaka kamma)... he is coming back from a 2 month trip to India in two days. once that moment was over, it is no longer, at that point every time the event arises in the mind door (along with all the future worries) it is a concept... and i can see all the wonderful cetasikas arising with the akusala citta... sanna (remembering the "accident"), vittaka and vicara (if only they would grab onto and focus on kusula chitta like that!), vedana (unpleasant!)... etc etc.. but it feels to me that this pannati keeps arising because of accumulation of akusula, however they say that it is not conditioned (but perhaps i am misunderstanding this point) what is the nature of these pannati that keep arising, and spinning around and around in circles? any insight or clarification into this and general nature of pannati is greatly appreciated. 2) element of cohesion and visible object eye consciousness citta only cognizes visible object. and it is said that visible object has not shape, form or colour... it is only through the mind door that these realities (or concepts?) can be experienced. so i am wondering, it would seem that object implies some sort of separation/disctinction from the rest, but if there is no shape/form/delimitation - then wouldn't it just be visible field? and what is the nature of the mind experience of cohesion? in my limited understanding it feels a lot like sanna, marking the object. and is form and shape cohesion? peace peace peace. j. #68021 From: "Joop" Date: Tue Feb 6, 2007 5:50 am Subject: Theragatha (Was: Re: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (17) jwromeijn Hallo sister- and brother-lovers How about Ananda alone? 1034. All the directions are obscure, The teachings are not clear to me; With our benevolent friend gone, It seems as if all is darkness. 1035. For one whose friend has passed away, One whose teacher is gone for good, There is no friend that can compare With mindfulness of the body. 1036. The old ones have all passed away; I do not fit in with the new. And so today I muse alone Like a bird who has gone to roost. #68022 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Feb 6, 2007 6:25 am Subject: Visuddhimagga, Ch XVII, 130, and Tiika. nilovg Visuddhimagga, Ch XVII, 130 Intro. As we have seen in the previous section (129) there are thirteen vipaakacittas that occur only in the course of life: the five pairs of sense-cognitions (seeing, etc.) which may be kusala vipaakacitta or akusala vipaakacitta. The two mind elements (mano-dhaatu) which are the two types of receiving-consciousness, sampa.ticchanacitta, and of these one type is ahetuka kusala vipaakacitta and one type akusala vipaakacitta. Furthermore, there is the mind-consciousness element (mano-vi~n~naa.na-dhaatu) accompanied by joy, which is in this context investigating-consciousness, santiira.nacitta.This citta can perform in the course of life the functions of investigating and retention. In the previous section (no 129) the Visuddhimagga did not deal with the other two types of santiira.nacitta (one being akusala vipaakacitta accompanied by upekkhaa and one kusala vipaakacitta accompanied by upekkhaa) since these can also occur as rebirth- consciousness. Only the vipaakacittas were mentioned that occur in the course of life. In this section (no 130) the Visuddhimagga deals with those vipaakacittas that can perform the function of rebirth, bhavanga and cuti. Thus, here it deals with the two types of santiira.nacitta which are ahetuka akusala vipaakacitta accompanied by upekkhaa and ahetuka kusala vipaakacitta accompanied by upekkhaa. There are nineteen vipaakacittas in all that can perform the function of rebirth, bhavanga and cuti. These vipaakacittas are: the two types of santiira.nacitta that were just mentioned, and furthermore: eight mahaa-vipaakacittas, five ruupaavacara vipaakacittas and four aruupaavacara vipaakacittas. When we count the thirteen vipaakacittas that occur only in the course of life and the nineteen vipaakacittas mentioned in this section, there are thirtytwo vipaakacittas in all. ------------- Text Vis.130: As to the remaining nineteen ((42)-(49) and (56)-(65)), there is none that does not occur as a rebirth-linking (a) appropriate to it (see par. 133). But in the course of an individual existence, firstly, two, namely, profitable-resultant and unprofitable-resultant root-causeless mind-consciousness elements ((41) and (56), occur accomplishing four functions, that is to say, the function of 'investigating' in the five doors (j) next after profitable-resultant and unprofitable-resultant mind element, -------- N: These are the two types of santiira.nacitta (profitable-resultant and unprofitable-resultant root-causeless mind-consciousness elements), which are accompanied by upekkhaa. As we have seen, they are mentioned in this section since they can also occur as rebirth- consciousness, bhavangacitta and cuticitta. They succeed in a sense- door process the mind element, manodhaatu, which is receiving- consciousness and which is kusala vipaakacitta or akusala vipaakacitta. ------------ Text Vis.: the function of 'registration' (m) in the six doors in the way already stated, ------------ N: If a sense-door process runs its full course, there can be, after the javanacittas, two more moments of vipaakacitta, the tadaaramma.nacittas (registration or retention). If retention occurs in a sense-door process, it also occurs in the mind-door process that follows upon that sense-door process. Thus, tadaarama.nacitta experiences an object through six doors. ---------- Text Vis.: the function of 'life-continuum' (b) that continues after rebirth-linking given by themselves, as long as there is no thought-arising to interrupt the life-continuum, and lastly the function of 'death' (n) at the end [of the course of an existence]. And so these two are invariable as to [possession of heart-] basis, and variable as to door, object, position, and function. --------- N: The Visuddhimagga states that bhavangacittas occur 'as long as there is no thought-arising to interrupt the life-continuum'. The word 'thought-arising" is the translation of cittuppaada, the arising of citta, namely, citta experiencing an object in a process. The last bhavangacitta arissing before a process begins is the arrest- bhavanga, the bhavangupaccheda. As to ‘these two’, here the text refers, according to the Tiika to the two ahetuka vipaakacittas dealt with in this section, the two types of santiira.nacitta. It explains that when they are bhavangacitta they themselves can be a doorway. Before a mind-door process begins the last bhavangacitta, the bhavangupaccheda, is the doorway for the cittas of the mind-door process. When these two santiira.nacittas perform the function of rebirth and dying they are reckoned as (sa"nkhaata) bhavangacitta, according to the Tiika. All bhavangacittas and also the dying-consciousness are the same type of citta as the rebirth-consciousness. They experience the same object being not dependent on any doorway and this is fixed, as the Tiika explains. Of these cittas it cannot be said that they are variable as to doorway, the Tiika states. The Tiika explains that when they perform the function of investigating an object, or of registration, they need a doorway. Thus, of these it is said that they are ‘ variable as to door, object, position, and function.’ ------------ Conclusion: All cittas which arise in a process do so according to a certain order, and this is called citta niyama, the order of cittas. It is dependent on conditions which object they experience through which doorway. Seeing always experiences visible object through the eye- door. This cannot be altered. It is said that santiira.na-citta that can perform different functions through different doorways is not fixed, aniyata, as to door, object, position, and function. But evenso, it is subject to conditions and it follows a certain order of cittas, citta niyama. When it performs the function of investigation, it has to follow upon receiving-consciousness and when it performs the function of registration, it has to follow upon the javanacittas. When this citta performs the function of bhavanga, it does so without dependence on any doorway, and this is fixed or invariable, niyata, as the Tiika explains. The notion of citta niyama helps us to see the nature of anattaa of citta. Citta arises because of its appropriate conditions, it is beyond control. ********** Nina. #68023 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Feb 6, 2007 6:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma in Daily lIfe, Ch 23, no 5. nilovg Dear Ramesh, Thank you for your kind post. I appreciate your interest. I cannot remember having seen your name before, so welcome here. I am from Holland and studying more than forty years. Forty years is not long when we reckon the latent tendency of ignorance accumulated for so long. That is what people forget when they are impatient to have a result, impatient that there is so little awareness in a day. Patience is one of the perfections (paramis) we have to accumulate day after day. Is this enough introduction? You can find my book Abh in Daily Life on and (look under E books) Best wishes and looking forward to your input, from Nina. Op 5-feb-2007, om 16:20 heeft Ramesh Patil het volgende geschreven: > I am from india!! > Please Give ur introduction also!! #68024 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Feb 6, 2007 7:13 am Subject: what should be often contemplated. nilovg Hi Phil and Howard, I reflected more on this sutta: take this passage: < Bhikkhus, the noble disciple reflects, it is not only I, that have not gone beyond death, yet all sentient beings that have come, gone, disappeared and are born have not gone beyond death. To one constantly reflecting this, the path appears. Then he develops that path and makes much of it and all his bonds get dispelled and the latent tendencies get destroyed.> A sutta is important, it stirs the heart and it is an exhortation not to be lazy. But we would not understand the deep meaning of the sutta if we fail to see that it brings us to the dhamma appearing right now. We read : the path appears. This would not be possible if one does not consider and is aware of nama and rupa, ultimate realities. We read here about death, but we should not forget death in the ultimate sense: death of nama and rupa that fall away all the time. The sutta helps us to see the urgency of understanding seeing, visible object, all realities that appear right now. Otherwise we keep on thinking of situations and are caught up in these with attachment, aversion and ignorance. I just listened to a Dhamma talk in Kaeng Kracang and heard: I think that we have to read the satipatthaanasutta in the same way: there are many examples here from situations, from the conventional world, but all of them can bring us to this very moment of reality that should be studied with awareness. We read about postures in this sutta. Kh Sujin reminded us: Nina. #68025 From: connie Date: Tue Feb 6, 2007 7:52 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (18) nichiconn Dear Sisters-Enthusiasts, This is the last of this set. Again, the text from VRI ala Pruitt plus Mrs R-D's verse translation. 18. Sa"nghaatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa 18. The commentary on the verse of Therii Sa"nghaa Hitvaa ghare pabbajitvaati sa"nghaaya theriyaa gaathaa. Tassaa vatthu dhiiraatheriyaa vatthusadisa.m. Gaathaa pana- 18. "Hitvaa ghare pabbajitvaa, hitvaa putta.m pasu.m piya.m; hitvaa raaga~nca dosa~nca, avijja~nca viraajiya; samuula.m ta.nhamabbuyha, upasantaamhi nibbutaa"ti.- Gaatha.m abhaasi. Giving up my house, gone forth is the verse of Theri Sa"nghaa. Her story is the same as the Dhiiraa's story [v.7]. But this is the verse she spoke: 18. Giving up my house, gone forth, giving up son, cattle, and whatever was dear to me, giving up desire and hatred, and discarding ignorance, plucking out craving root and all, I have become stilled, quenched. {{Mrs R-D's translation of the verse: Home have I left, for I have left my world! Child have I left, and all my cherish'd herds! Lust have I left, and Ill-will, too, is gone, And Ignorance have I put far from me; Craving and root of Craving overpowered, Cool am I now, knowing Nibbana's peace. (18) }} Tattha hitvaati cha.d.detvaa. Ghareti geha.m. Gharasaddo hi ekasmimpi abhidheyye kadaaci bahuusu biija.m viya ruu.lhivasena vohariiyati. Hitvaa putta.m pasu.m piyanti piyaayitabbe putte ceva gomahi.msaadike pasuu ca tappa.tibaddhachandaraagappahaanena pahaaya. Hitvaa raaga~nca dosa~ncaati rajjanasabhaava.m raaga.m, dussanasabhaava.m dosa~nca ariyamaggena samucchinditvaa. Avijja~nca viraajiyaati sabbaakusalesu pubba"ngama.m moha~nca viraajetvaa maggena samugghaa.tetvaa icceva attho. Sesa.m vuttanayameva. 18. Here, giving up means: having abandoned. House (ghare) means: household (geha.m). For the word house, although a singular noun, is sometimes used in the plural in popular usage, just like [the word] "seed." Giving up son (putta.m), cattle, and whatever was dear to me means: through abandoning the desire and passion connected with these, she abandoned what is to be held dear: her sons (putte) and cattle, buffalo and cows, etc. Giving up desire and hatred means: through the noble path she abolished desire, which has the nature of being passionate, and hatred, which has the nature of being evil. And discarding ignorance means: and having become dispassionate, through the path she destroyed delusion, which is a forerunner of all that is unwholesome. It is to be understood thus. The meaning of the rest has been explained. Sa"nghaatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa ni.t.thitaa. Ekakanipaatava.n.nanaa ni.t.thitaa. Here ends the commentary on the verse of Therii Sa"nghaa. Here ends the commentary on the section of single [verses]. ==== now, back to our regularly scheduled program... c. #68026 From: connie Date: Tue Feb 6, 2007 8:10 am Subject: Re: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (18) nichiconn Dear Friends, << Giving up my house, gone forth is the verse of Theri Sa"nghaa. Her story is the same as the Dhiiraa's story [v.7]. But this is the verse she spoke: 18. Giving up my house, gone forth, giving up son, cattle, and whatever was dear to me, giving up desire and hatred, and discarding ignorance, plucking out craving root and all, I have become stilled, quenched. >> connie: #7 was #67659, our 'heroic' sister Viira... wonder women abound! Anyway, Theri Sa"nghaa's verse reminded me of another sutta quoted in The Pitaka Disclosure: << 185. 43. Herein, what is Our Own Statement and Someone Else's Statement? < What is [already] reached and is [still] to be reached are both contaminated with dirt [in him who trains as one [still] sick] ... For those with such a doctrine ... there is no harm in sense-desires > (Ud 71). This is Someone Else's Statement. [Then] < For those who do not approach either extreme, there is no describing any round [or rebirth] > (cf Ud 72). This is Our Own Statement. [55] [And] < A man with children finds relish through his children, And a property-owner likewise through his property. These essentials of existence are a man's relish; Who has them not will never relish find > (cf Sn 33), which is Someone Else's Statement, while < A man with children finds sorrow through his children, And a cattle-owner likewise through his cattle. These essentials of existence are a man's sorrow; Who has them not shall never sorrow find > (Sn 34) is Our Own Statement. This is Our Own Statement and Another's Statement. >> end quote << and the simile of the cowherd: see http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an11/an11.018.than.html << AN 11.18 - Gopalaka Sutta - The Cowherd "A monk endowed with these eleven factors is incapable of attaining growth, increase, & abundance in this Dhamma-Vinaya. Which eleven? There is the case where a monk is not well-versed in forms, unskilled in characteristics, doesn't pick out flies' eggs, doesn't dress wounds, doesn't fumigate, doesn't know fords, doesn't know what it is to have drunk, doesn't know the road, is not skilled in pastures, milks dry, and shows no extra respect for the elder monks with seniority, who have been ordained long, who are fathers & leaders of the Community. A monk endowed with these eleven factors is incapable of attaining growth, increase, & abundance in this Dhamma-Vinaya. >> end quote << connie: Back to The Pi.taka Disclosure again for another look at that: << 53. [ABD] Herein, what is Suffering and Origin and Path? < How could a man to sense-desires stoop Who has seen pain and that wherefrom it sources? Who knows they make for needing in the world Should mindful train in guiding them away > (cf S i 117). "Who has seen pain": this is [A] Suffering. That wherefrom it comes to be is [B] Origin. The seeing whence it comes to be down to "should train in guiding it away" is [D] the Path. This is three Truths. [And] the Thread in the Cattle-Herd Simile, in the Elevens of the Anguttara (A v 347). Herein, any state of a "perceiver of form" (A v 351, l.8), and the "sixfold base" (A v 351 l.24), and how he "covers up wounds" (A v 352 l.3), and the "watering-place" (A v 352 l.16), and how he attains the "rare happiness and gladness associated with the True Idea" (A v 352 l.18), and the "fourfold basis of selfhood" (A v 352 l.27 = 4 Foundations of Mindfulness): [16] these are [A] Suffering. In so far as he is [not] a "picker-out of grubs" (A v 351 l.22), this is [B] Origin. The state of a "perceiver of form", the "picking our of grubs", the "covering up of wounds", the "knowledge of the road" (A v 352 l.25), and the "skill in pastures" (A v 352 l.29): these are [D] the Path. The remaining ideas are presence-causes, prsence-condition, presence-supports, since the state of a "milker who leaves some [for the calf]" (A v 353 l.1) and the "extra offerings" (A v 352 l.12) are ideas that are conditions for good-friendship, while the "knowledge of the road [as the eight-factored path]" is the cause [for attaining extinction]. This is three Truths. >> === peace, connie ps. thanx for reading with me. #68027 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Feb 6, 2007 10:58 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily life, Ch 23, no 7 nilovg Dear friends, At the moment of enlightenment nibbåna is the object which is experienced by the lokuttara citta. Some people think that nibbåna is a place which one can reach, a plane of life. In order to have more understanding of what nibbåna is, we have to consider what our life now is: nåma and rúpa arising and falling away. Our life is dukkha, because what arises and falls away is unsatisfactory. If nibbåna would be a plane where we would continue to live, there would be no end to the arising and falling away of nåma and rúpa, no end to dukkha. Nibbåna, however, is the unconditioned dhamma, it does not arise and fall away. Nibbåna is therefore the end of the arising and falling away of nåma and rúpa, the end of birth, old age, sickness and death. Nibbåna is the end to dukkha. When one has attained the first stage of enlightenment, the stage of the sotåpanna, it is certain that there will eventually be an end to the cycle of birth and death, an end to dukkha. When the person who is not an arahat dies, the last citta of his life, the cuti-citta (dying-consciousness) is succeeded by the paìisandhi-citta (rebirth-consciousness) of the next life and thus life goes on. So long as there are defilements life has to continue. The fact that we are here in the human plane is conditioned by defilements. Even if there is birth in a heavenly plane, in a rúpa- brahma plane or in an arúpa-brahma plane, it is conditioned by defilements. The arahat has no more defilements, he does not have to be reborn in any plane. The arahat has to die, because he was born and birth has to be followed by death. However, for him the cuti-citta will not be succeeded by a paìisandhi-citta. Thus, for him there will not be the arising of nåma and rúpa in a new life any more, and this means the end to the cycle of birth and death. For some people this would seem to be the annihilation of life, something which is frightening. We can make ourselves believe that life is good and that it should continue forever, but if we develop insight we will see more and more that life is nåma-elements and rúpa- elements which arise because of their own conditions and then have to fall away; they are beyond control, nobody can cause them to remain. We cannot cause the arising of happy feeling, if it arises it does so because of its own conditions. It is only present for an extremely short while and then there may be unhappy feeling. The ideas we used to have about life and happiness will gradually be changed. If one still clings to the ``self'' one is anxious about what will happen to the ``self'' after one's death. For the arahat the question of what will happen after his death does not occur; he has no more defilements and thus no more clinging to life. ****** Nina. #68028 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Feb 6, 2007 11:01 am Subject: Letters on Vipassana 6, no 8. nilovg Dear friends, Right understanding has to be developed of all realities which appear through the six doors so that insight can become a power. When we see what we do not know yet we can have a sense of urgency to continue on with satipa.t.thåna. Gabi wrote to me that she had read Khun Sujin's "Stages of Insight" with great pleasure. She wrote: “This shows with great clarity how intricate the development of satipa.t.thåna is and how complicated it is. This does not discourage me at all, on the contrary, I enjoy it to take up time and again the scriptures and then I am reminded of the truth in my daily life. I am reminded that only paramatthas are real... ” In the commentary to the Therígåthå , Canto XXXIV, Sukkå , we read that Sukkå had in many former lives listened to Buddhas, renounced worldly life, studied the Dhamma and explained it to others. Inspite of her great knowledge of the Dhamma she did not attain enlightenment. In this Buddha era she listened to the Buddha and when she heard Dhammadinnå preach she developed insight and reached arahatship. Once when she preached the Dhamma, a deva who lived in a tree was inspired by her words and incited people to come and listen to her. Sukkå, at the end of her life, declared her attainment in a verse. She called out her own name Sukkå , which means: bright, lustrous. We read: O Child of light! by light of truth set free From cravings dire, firm, self-possessed, serene, Bear to this end your last incarnate frame, For you have conquered Måra and his host. This story shows us that it takes aeons to develop paññå. Even Sukkå who listened to several Buddhas needed aeons to develop the perfections together with satipaììhåna. However, instead of wondering how arahatship could ever be achieved we can take note of the benefits of satipaììhåna even now. Before we studied the Dhamma we did not know anything about citta, cetasika and rúpa. We did not know that on account of the pleasant or unpleasant objects experienced through the senses defilements such as attachment or aversion arise. Through the study of the Dhamma and through satipa.t.thåna there will gradually be less ignorance of the realities of our daily life. The development of right understanding takes aeons but even a moment of right understanding now of a nåma or a rúpa is beneficial because it can be accumulated from moment to moment. ****** Nina #68029 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Feb 6, 2007 11:39 am Subject: pa~n~natti and cohesion. nilovg Dear Joel, Joel writes: ------- 1: nature of pannati. so pannati is not a paramattha dhamma, but is still dhamma. it is an object of chitta and cetasika (through mind door), that rises and falls... but it is not conditioned? what then causes it to arise? -------- N: It is an object, experienced by citta, but it is not a paramattha dhamma that arises and falls away. It is not citta, cetasika, rupa or nibbaana. Citta can think of paramattha dhammas and also of concepts that are not real in the ultimate sense, such as a house or a person. It is not a conditioned reality, and it does not arise. --------- J:example : yesterday i backed my teacher's car into his staircase. (this i instantaneously understood as akusala vipaka kamma) ------- N: This is a situation and there are many different cittas arising at such moments. We cannot say it is akusala vipaka caused by kamma; we have to be more precise: which citta is vipaka (the hearing of sound, or an unpleasant rupa felt through the bodysense?) and which citta is akusala that had a fright or aversion? -------- J: ... he is coming back from a 2 month trip to India in two days. once that moment was over, it is no longer, at that point every time the event arises in the mind door (along with all the future worries) it is a concept... and i can see all the wonderful cetasikas arising with the akusala citta... sanna (remembering the "accident"), vittaka and vicara (if only they would grab onto and focus on kusula chitta like that!), vedana (unpleasant!)... etc etc.. but it feels to me that this pannati keeps arising because of accumulation of akusula, however they say that it is not conditioned (but perhaps i am misunderstanding this point) ----- N: We think of many stories, events, and these are concepts. We think usually with akusala citta, but perhaps there was some concern for your teacher? The pa~n~natti does not keep arising, but the thinking does. The thinking is citta, a reality, it arises and falls away. --------- J: what is the nature of these pannati that keep arising, and spinning around and around in circles? ------- N: the citta which thinks arises all the time and it seems it is spinning, but in reality it arises and falls away immediately. Here we can see that citta is beyond control, anattaa. And sa~n~naa keeps on remembering, although we would rather not think of such an accident time and again. --------- J: 2) element of cohesion and visible object eye consciousness citta only cognizes visible object. and it is said that visible object has not shape, form or colour... -------- N: It is colour. All that appears through eyesense is visible object or colour, no matter how you name it. We can change the name but the ultimate reality is unalterable: just what appears through the eyesense. -------- j: it is only through the mind door that these realities (or concepts?) can be experienced. ____ visible object is experienced through the eyedoor and after that through the mind-door, and then there can be thinking of a concept of what was experienced. On account of what was seen or heard we form up concepts. This happens all day long. We believe we see a person, but in reality many cittas have passed: seeing, defining, thinking, naming. -------- J: so i am wondering, it would seem that object implies some sort of separation/disctinction from the rest, but if there is no shape/form/delimitation - then wouldn't it just be visible field? ------ N: The rupa that is visible object impinges on the eyesense and then there are conditions for seeing. We do not have to think of the object being distinct, it is experienced through the appropriate doorway. You can also call it visible field, it does not matter how you call it. -------- J: and what is the nature of the mind experience of cohesion? in my limited understanding it feels a lot like sanna, marking the object. and is form and shape cohesion? ------- N: Cohesion is the element of Water, one of the great or principle elements together with earth (with the characteristics of hardness and softness), fire (heat or cold) and wind (motion and pressure). These three can be experienced through the bodydoor. Cohesion can only be experienced through the mind-door, but it is subtle, the question is who can? Sa~n~naa arises with each citta and it marks and recognizes an object. Form and shape is a concept one thinks of after having experienced visible object, it has nothing to do with cohesion. Let me know whether there are still things that are not clear, Nina. #68030 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Feb 6, 2007 11:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] re Letters on Vipassana 6,5 nilovg Hi Herman, It is accomplished by insight wisdom arising in a process. It can attend to the falling away moment of rupa. In fact there are several processes with insight arising one after the other, and it is not so that there is counting of rupas. The impermance of rupa is a characteristic realized by pa~n~naa. I cannot tell you more about this. Nina. Op 5-feb-2007, om 22:53 heeft Herman Hofman het volgende geschreven: > If it is only namas that know rupas, and namas fall away quicker than > anything else, how can namas know that rupas fall away? #68031 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Feb 6, 2007 11:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Theratherigatha (Was: Re: the perfections, Boodhisatta nilovg Dear Joop, thanks for the info, that is really interesting. Nina. Op 5-feb-2007, om 22:56 heeft Joop het volgende geschreven: > Verzen van monniken en nonnen > Uitspraken van bevrijde mannen en vrouwen in het vroege boeddhisme > Uitgeverij Asoka > Vertaling Ria Kloppenborg #68032 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Tue Feb 6, 2007 1:14 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Mystery of Consciousness egberdina Hi Christine, On 06/02/07, Christine Forsyth wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" > I'm fine thanks H. ~ only been working three days a week for the last > six months to help my brother care for our mother. It's been great ~ > we've actually got to know each other as persons rather than me > always being twelve years old. :-) I expect to go back to full-time > work in about eight weeks ~ either that or starve, after having my > house re-possessed. But it's been worth the financial cost. :-) > It is very good to hear from you and about you. While what you say implies that your mother isn't or hasn't been well, I get a sense of peace from what you wrote. Nice to get to know your brother :-) I know what you mean. Especially nice about only working three days a week. I work zero days a week in the health system, and find that to be very beneficial :-) Thanks for the tinylink to the article, which I found to be quite uncontroversial. It reminded me of a period in my life were my partner was in a coma at RPA for a month. While she had no problems with me or her kids holding her hands, she would pull them away each time her mother took them (she didn't like her mum at all). Also, on waking up, she complained that her favourite music, which I had played through headphones to her, had been too loud. Certainly, though she appeared lifeless, there was plenty of consciousness going on. I don't think the Buddha set out to teach physiology, or demonstrate the biological bases of behaviour. And while the Time article certainly debunks commentarial material on heart bases and the like, that has always been irrelevant to the thrust of Buddhism anyway. I agree with you that the article confims the anatta nature of consciousness. Which is the main thrust of the Buddha's teaching. Kind Regards Herman #68033 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Tue Feb 6, 2007 1:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Some Idle Thoughts on Nothing egberdina Hi Larry. Thanks. That is very well put. On 06/02/07, LBIDD@... wrote: > Hi Herman, > > H: "It seems to me that in analysing a phenomenon, you are destroying > the phenomenon in the process. Neither mum analysed into dhammas, or > dhammas synthesised and reconstituted into mum, are mum. Whatever is > experienced is a consequence of what method is used to experience it. > The reality of what is seen through a microscope, does not come into > play when looking with eyes unaided, or with a telescope. IMO" > > L: I agree. The mum we know and love is the mum of our attachment. And > that's why we aren't arahants. > It also allows me to say that that's why arahants don't have mums :-) Kind Regards Herman #68034 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Tue Feb 6, 2007 1:53 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Some Idle Thoughts on Nothing egberdina Hi Scott, On 06/02/07, Scott Duncan wrote: > > True, Herman. This is actually a stripped-down version of the basic > psychodynamics of simple, mundane psychological defense, isn't it? A > conscious denial has to reflect an initial perception, some sort of > conflict with it, and an unconscious 'warding-off' of that perception, > turning it into a denial. At least this it the case when discussing > psychodynamics. I'm not sure what point you wish to make here, though, > nor how it applies to the Dhamma. > The point is that there are only concepts. Denying concepts of mum's, meatloafs etc yet affirming concepts of paramattha dhammas is not exactly a profound activity, but certainly profoundly disturbing :-) > H: "Observe what happens in constructing your meatloaf, and the steps > that lead from ingredients to consumed product. I used logic in the > way it might be used for a logic board, an electronic circuit. It is > simply the pathway of change. Of course, you are free to deny your > meatloaf, but in doing so you will have acknowledged it's thereness." > > Yes, of course, Herman, there are steps to making a meatloaf. I don't > even need a recipe book (although I was not too pleased with it last > night - a bit dry). I'm still not really clear on why this particular > aspect of things is so very important to you. Why the insistence on > the acknowledgement of the 'reality' of that which is not 'real'? > What is the draw here for you? Why insist that the meatloaf be > acknowledged as meatloaf? As I said above, ignorance of constant replacing one concept with another is hardly insightful activity. If the present moment is going to be known as it is, as in there is mindfulness of writing to Scott, then any flight into non-association, or explanations, as in eye-sense is seeing colours, should also be mindfully known, as in there is mindfulness of not thinking, or there is mindfulness of explaining. Mindfulness of meatloaf should be known as it is. > > Consider the following, (Note 162, SN63,(3)): > > "Spk: When nutriment as edible food is fully understood: It is fully > understood by these three kinds of full understanding: (i) the full > understanding of the known (~naatapari~n~naa); (ii) the full > understanding by scrutinisation (tiira.napari~n~naa); and (iii) the > full understanding as abandonment (pahaanapari~n~naa). Therein, (i) a > bhikkhu understands: 'This nutriment edible food is 'form with > nutritive essence as the eighth' together with its base. This > impinges on the tongue-sensitivity, and the four elements - these > things are the form aggregate. The contact pentad (contact, feeling, > perception, volition, consciousness) arisen in one who discerns this - > these are the four mental aggregates. All these five aggregates are, > in brief, name-and-form.' Next he searches out the conditions for > these phenomena and sees dependent origination in direct and reverse > order. By thus seeing name-and-form with its conditions as it > actually is, the nutriment of edible food is fully understood by the > full understanding of the known. (ii) Next he ascribes the three > characteristics to that same name-and-form and explores it by way of > the seven contemplations (of impermanence, suffering, nonself, > revulsion, dispassion, cessation, and relinquishment...Thus it is > fully understood by the full understanding of scrutinisation. (iii) > It is fully understood by the full understanding of abandonment when > it is fully understood by the path of nonreturning, which cuts off > desire and lust for that same name-and-form." > > I realise that this is commentarial material but I think it pretty > clearly adheres to the suttas as far as I can tell. Is this not what > meatloaf is, according to the Buddha? > > Sincerely, > > Scott > > P.S. I read SN61(1) a number of times and am ready to discuss when > you are. > > Thanks for the above. I'll reply later. While there is mindfulness of the freedom to do anything that comes to mind, there is mindfulness of choosing to go and do some work, and mindfulness of the resistance to that choice. Cheers Herman #68035 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Tue Feb 6, 2007 1:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions egberdina Hi TG, Thanks for the reply. On 06/02/07, TGrand458@... wrote: > Hi Herman > > First of all, I'd stay away from whatever it is you're smoking. ;-) > Yeah, I know what you mean :-) I'll reply in-depth later. KInd Regards Herman #68036 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Feb 6, 2007 9:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Are all the bad things that happen to us results of our deeds? upasaka_howard Hi, Connie - In a message dated 2/5/07 1:18:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, connieparker@... writes: > "The Official Answer": see AN 3.61, Tittha Sutta / Sectarians, which > reads in part: > > "Having approached the priests &contemplatives who hold that... 'Whatever > a person experiences... is all caused by what was done in the past,' I > said to them: 'Is it true that you hold that... "Whatever a person > experiences... is all caused by what was done in the past?"' Thus asked by > me, they admitted, 'Yes.' Then I said to them, 'Then in that case, a > person is a killer of living beings because of what was done in the past. > A person is a thief... unchaste... a liar... a divisive speaker... a harsh > speaker... an idle chatterer... greedy... malicious... a holder of wrong > views because of what was done in the past.' When one falls back on what > was done in the past as being essential, monks, there is no desire, no > effort [at the thought], 'This should be done. This shouldn't be done.' > When one can't pin down as a truth or reality what should &shouldn't be > done, one dwells bewildered &unprotected. One cannot righteously refer to > oneself as a contemplative. This was my first righteous refutation of > those priests &contemplative who hold to such teachings, such views." > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.061.than.html > > peace, > connie > > ======================= Excellent, Connie! The ususal reply to this question involves mentioning phenomena other than one's own kamma as conditioniong - the various cosmic principles - weather and so on. But this is a different sort of reply, a very practical one. :-) With metta, Howard #68037 From: connie Date: Tue Feb 6, 2007 5:13 pm Subject: Theragatha (Was: Re: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (17) nichiconn Thanks, Joop! << How about Ananda alone? >> << The virtuous, wise man, The hero strong and ever resolute, The guardian of the word so true, Ananda found extinction now. - Thag 17.3 (v. 1049) >> ... who untangles the tangle (vism). Aananda alone held up the Assembly, I might say. Hecker might answer: << he was the only monk who was not yet an arahant amongst those whom the Buddha called pre-eminent in specific abilities >> and << the one amongst the seventy-five pre-eminent disciples who excelled in five abilities >>. see: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/hecker/wheel273.html for more. I especially liked the mention of Punna's teaching the five aggregates reflecting the image of "I Am" (SN 22.83) leading Aananda to Stream-Entry, as Hecker puts it: << he penetrated the suffering, impermanence and no-self aspects of the five aggregates, and no longer relied upon them as his support. >> I guess we still don't have a translation of the commentary for the Brother's verses the way we do Pruitt's for the Sister's? Too bad... from his intro, p.x: << This commentary is actually the second part of a larger text: the commentary on both the Thera- and Therii-gaathaa. This means that many words in the Therii's verses are not explained because they were already discussed in the commentary on the Thera's verses. >> back to my roost, connie #68038 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Tue Feb 6, 2007 5:49 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Are all the bad things that happen to us results of our deeds? ken_aitch Hi Howard (and Connie), ------------ <. . .> Tittha Sutta: > <. . .> When one falls back on what > was done in the past as being essential, monks, there is no desire, no > effort [at the thought], 'This should be done. This shouldn't be done.' > When one can't pin down as a truth or reality what should &shouldn't be > done, one dwells bewildered &unprotected. One cannot righteously refer to > oneself as a contemplative. This was my first righteous refutation of > those priests &contemplative who hold to such teachings, such views." > <. . .> ======================= H: > Excellent, Connie! The usual reply to this question involves mentioning phenomena other than one's own kamma as conditioning - the various cosmic principles - weather and so on. But this is a different sort of reply, a very practical one. :-) ----------- I am sure everyone agrees. "Meditators" and "non-meditators" alike will interpret this (and every) sutta as supporting their practice. So, if you don't mind my saying so, it is not enough to express agreement: we must explain and discuss whatever it is we see in the sutta. The way I see it, the reply ("When one can't pin down as a truth or reality what should and shouldn't be done, one dwells bewildered and unprotected") is practical in that it stresses right understanding of presently arisen paramattha dhammas. When wholesome dhammas arise they should be known as, "This is what should arise (by conditions)". When unwholesome dhammas arise they should be known as, "This is what should not arise (by conditions)." Of course, any idea of control over the flow of conditioned dhammas is wrong view. It takes us back to where we were before we ever heard the Dhamma. Wrong view takes us back to when we believed in the absolute reality of `sentient beings' `places to go' and `things to do.' Let's not go back there. :-) Ken H #68039 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Feb 6, 2007 6:01 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Some Idle Thoughts on Nothing scottduncan2 Hi Herman, H: "The point is that there are only concepts. Denying concepts of mum's, meatloafs etc yet affirming concepts of paramattha dhammas is not exactly a profound activity, but certainly profoundly disturbing :-)" Well, this is a shocking development, and no mistake. What do you mean 'there are only concepts'? Is this how you actually see it, that all is conceptual? Please elaborate on this, if you would. H: "As I said above, ignorance of constant replacing one concept with another is hardly insightful activity. If the present moment is going to be known as it is, as in there is mindfulness of writing to Scott, then any flight into non-association, or explanations, as in eye-sense is seeing colours, should also be mindfully known, as in there is mindfulness of not thinking, or there is mindfulness of explaining. "Mindfulness of meatloaf should be known as it is." Hmmm. I'd better wait until you clarify your position on 'there are only concepts' before responding to the above. While I wait, I'll set out the following tentative teasers: 1) Is 'ignorance' conceptual or a reality? 2) Is the knowing of 'known as it is' conceptual or a reality? 3) Is 'mindfulness' conceptual or a reality? 4) 'Writing to Scott' is conceptual, can mindfulness have concept as object? 5) Is 'eye-sense' conceptual or a reality? 6) 'Seeing colours' is naama, is naama conceptual or a reality? 7) Is visible object conceptual or a reality? H: "...While there is mindfulness of the freedom to do anything that comes to mind, there is mindfulness of choosing to go and do some work, and mindfulness of the resistance to that choice." Ah, yes, this I totally comprehend. I happen to have some dishes that I do not wish to do but... Sincerely, Scott. #68040 From: connie Date: Tue Feb 6, 2007 6:48 pm Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters nichiconn Dear Psalm Readers, My oversight not to have given a list of the single verses, sorry! - CANTO I -- PSALMS OF SINGLE VERSES (Ascribed to:) 1. A certain Sister of a noble family of Vesali, known as 'Therika' 2. Mutta, daughter of a brahmin of Savatthi 3. Punna, daughter of a setthi of Savatthi 4. Tissa, daughter of the Sakiyas, Kapilavatthu 5. Another Tissa 6. Dhira 7. another Dhira 8. Mitta 9. Bhadra 10. Upasama 11. Mutta, daughter and wife of Kosalan brahmins 12. DHAMMADINNA, foremost of the Sisters who were preachers (ANi25) 13. Visakha 14. Sumana 15. Uttara (1) 16. Sumana vuddhapabbajita, sister of Pasenadi, King of Kosala 17. Dhamma, daughter of a clansman of Savatth 18. Sangha I propose to keep the numbering in line with CAF R-D's while relying more on Pruitt's work "for the rest of the story". Thus, we'll see for the next 'canto' - DUKANIPAATO -- PAIRED VERSES (Ascribed to:) 19. Abhirupa-Nanda, daughter of the Sakiyas, Kapilavatthu 20. Jenti or Jenta, daughter of the Licchavis, Vesali 21. Sumangala's mother, daughter of poor people, wife of a rush-plaiter, Savatthi 22. Addhakasi, daughter of a se.t.thi of Kasi, ex-courtezan 23. Citta, daughter of great burgess of Rajagaha 24. Mettika, daughter of a brahmin of Rajagaha 25. Mitta (2), daughter of the Sakiyas, Kapilavatthu 26. Abhaya's mother, Padumavati, ex-courtesan of Ujjeni 27. Abhaya, daughter of a clansman of Ujjeni, friend of the foregoing 28. Sama, daughter of a great burgess of Kosambi peace, connie ps. Inspiration from Enlightened Nuns - Susan Elbaum Jootla http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/jootla/wheel349.html #68041 From: "Bill Zenn" Date: Tue Feb 6, 2007 10:36 pm Subject: Re: Thanks for the recommendations... bill_zenn > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Bill" wrote: > >I also found a handy app called "Pali Lookup" here: > > > > http://www.metta.lk/pali-utils/ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > I wasn't familiar with that. It seems to be an application suitable > for windows 95+, which leads me to believe that it is a rather old > application. I use Windows XP so I am hesitant to install it. The > program also works along with Access but I am not sure of what > version of Access- again I have Access XP so I am not sure it is > compatible. I am hesitant to install buggy programs as they could > corrupt the registry and reguire a re-installation of Windows. Let > us know how it works for you. I'm running Windows XP as well, and I haven't had any issues with this program. I've been running it now for a few weeks and it works like a charm. It seems pretty self-contained and straight forward. Namaste, Bill Zenn #68042 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Feb 6, 2007 10:11 pm Subject: Dual Energy! bhikkhu5 There are two kinds of Energy: Bodily & Mental! There are two kinds of Energy Ability (Viriyindriya): 1. Bodily Energy (KÄ?yika-viriya) and 2. Mental Energy (Cetasika-viriya) There are two degrees of this Ability of Energy: 1: Ordinary Energy (Pakati-viriya) and 2. Energy developed by meditation (BhÄ?vanÄ?-viriya) Bodily Energy is reducing sleep and being vigorous and energetic. Mental Energy is alert enthusiasm in keen attention to the object. Any kind of work will only reach success if gaining mastery over it. If done without real energy the work gains mastery over the person and no concrete results appear, days & months drag along & strong disgust with the work appears, leading to laziness. When being lazy the progress in the work slows down, the fake idea appears that it maybe would be better to change work or give it up altogether... In meditative work, quick success is obtained only by one endowed with both bodily and mental energy. Energy developed by meditation can overcome sloth and laziness> The mind then takes enthusiastic delight in dwelling on the objects on which its attention is strong! This is the Energy Ability (Viriyindriya) developed by meditation... Source: The requisites of Enlightenment. Ven. Ledi Sayadaw. Wheel 171/172 http://www.bps.lk/ For a full Study on Energy (Viriya): The root Hero of all Success: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/The_Definition_of_Energy.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/The_Arising_of_Energy.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/The_Ability_of_Energy.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/The_Origin_of_Energy.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/Enthusiastic_is_Energy.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Power_of_Energy.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Ballanced_Energy.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/The_Chief_Hero.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Energetic_Effort.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Avoiding_Effort.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Feeding_Energy.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Energy_Viriya.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Dual_Energy.htm Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Ceylon * <....> #68043 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Feb 6, 2007 11:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: right effort, and some Thailand impressions. sarahprocter... Hi Herman (& Rob K & James*), --- Herman Hofman wrote: > Hi RobertK, > > On 03/02/07, rjkjp1 wrote: > > Dear Herman, > > Whether I answer yes or no to your hypothetical question, the only way > > it will ever be over is if the eighfold path is developed to attain > > parinibbana. When there is right understanding there is a step towards > > that goal, it does not come about by wishing..But only by repeated > > steps in the right direction. > > I'm glad you've got causality/conditionality down pat. I won't answer > your question either. .... S: Hmmmm, is that fair play?......You don't see this as an answer (understandably) to your question, but isn't that just because you'd like a Self introduced when you ask for opinions and experiences? When answers are given (like Rob's) which refer to dhammas such as 'understanding' and 'wishing', does that mean they don't qualify! Rob gave it a go and I think some of us are still waiting to hear your 'go' at responding to his question (with regard to quoting a sutta as 'authority', I believe) as you promised! If you've forgotten the exact question, let me know and I'll fish it out again:-)) ... > PS Perhaps you could test how well you understand causality by making > a prediction, say, about Alex. Keep us informed. ... S: I don't see the significance of this passing comment. The whole point about anatta and conditionality is that we have no idea whether seeing or hearing or thinking will arise next moment. Are you able to make accurate predictions about your children except in a very generalized sort of way? Metta, Sarah (Btw, James M- I thought your response was very interesting;-)). ======= #68044 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Feb 6, 2007 11:35 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Gaps: Unecessary but Interesting sarahprocter... Hi Howard, (Andrew T & Joop), --- upasaka@... wrote: > > >>My term meaning the impermanence characteristic of the present > > >>reality as opposed to some conventional rendering about > > >>the "impermanence of Joe Blogg's life". > > > > > >------------------------------------------ > > >Howard: > > > To me, that is jargon masquerading as knowledge. <...> .... >H: Pardon me, please. I may well have come across as rude. I simply > meant > that the phrase 'the impermanence characteristic of the present reality' > > strikes me as not conveying much. ... S: Yes, your comment was a bit strong this time as you appreciated:-). I thought the comment Andrew made was very clear. When the Buddha refers to seeing (now) or any dhamma appearing as being impermanent, it's very different from 'the impermanence of Joe Blogg's life' or any other conventional idea of impermanence. I think it's very important to appreciate this difference (as I believe you do, Howard) - otherwise it's easy to kid ourselves that we're understanding what the Buddha talked about with regard to impermanence when really it's just the usual kind of thinking about a dreamy idea of 'everything in life being impermanent'. Pointing out the truths is not jargon as I see it, but a helfpul reminder! I'm just butting in here as I think this point about impermanence is an important one for us all to consider over and over again. As Joop sometimes says, perhaps we don't discuss impermanence enough. Metta, Sarah ======= #68045 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Feb 6, 2007 11:46 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'We are here to learn the dhamma' sarahprocter... Hi Scott, --- Scott Duncan wrote: > Again, yes. There is no need to misunderstand these processes and > think to create a 'practise' out of them, such as purposive > recollection and reflection or concentrated focus with the aim being > to make something else happen. .... S: I like the way you put this - a good summing up of my more long-winded comments, thank you. metta, Sarah ======= #68046 From: "Phil" Date: Wed Feb 7, 2007 3:06 am Subject: Re: what should be often contemplated. philofillet Hi Nina > A sutta is important, it stirs the heart and it is an exhortation not > to be lazy. But we would not understand the deep meaning of the sutta > if we fail to see that it brings us to the dhamma appearing right > now. I think a wonderful thing about this and so many suttas is that it can be appreciated in a very helpful way at different levels. For me, it does not bring me directly to any consideration of present dhammas - my appreciation is much more conceptual, more conventional, related to ethical behaviour that arises (or doesn't) from any samvega, appamada etc. that the sutta conditions. For you and others, I think there is room for, capacity for, conditions for for deeper understanding. Another sutta I like is one in AN in which it is said that it is through one's behaviour that wisdom shines; a wise person is known by his or her behaviour in body, speech and mind. The implications for me are clear; one is to do good deeds and avoid evil ones. For you, there will be consideration of the dhammas involved, and the "wisdom" that shines forth will be more related to deep understanding of paramattha dhammas. For me, it will be about basic discretion, the avoidance of things that are harmful to myself and others, and the doing of things that are helpful. That is enough for me, for now. It is more than enough, actually! :) Metta, Phil #68047 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Feb 7, 2007 3:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Theriigaathaa - Sisters (11) sarahprocter... Hi Connie, (I'm savouring the installments at a leisurely pace, thank you for all your wonderful work, adding the Pruitt, Pali and so on!) --- connie wrote: > XI -- {Another} Muttaa *99, daughter and wife of Kosalan brahmins > > Muttaa, heaping up good under former Buddhas, .... S: Yes, as Nina said, it gives an indication of how long the path is - all the 'ingredients' have to be in place, ready for insight to develop in the final life when hearing Gotama Buddha. .... <...> > So she practised self-control, and, repeating her verse, > strove after insight till she won Arahantship; then exulting, she > repeated: > > O free, indeed! O gloriously free > Am I in freedom from three crooked things: - > From quern, from mortar, from my crookback'd lord! *100 > Ay, but I'm free from rebirth and from death, > And all that dragged me back is hurled away. (11) .... S: 2 brief comments- 1. Again no reference here or in the commentary which follows to anything other than insight being developed 'till she won Arahantship', but see below.... 2. 'freedom from...three crooked things.....my crookback'd lord' (Pruitt: well released...three crooked things...my crooked husband'. A good example of it being the cittas (rather than any p.c./non p.c. comments) that count perhaps:-) <...> > connie: Pruitt also has a lot from the Apadaana, but I haven't been > adding much of that. Off the top of my head, I think I just mentioned > the > following bit that many of the verse commentaries, including this one, > have in common: > > My defilements are burnt out, {all [future] births are completely > destroyed. Having severed my bonds like an elephant, I live without > taints. > Welcome indeed was the presence of the Best of Buddhas to me. I have > attained the three true knowledges. .... S: Is this a reference to the parinnas, the ti-lakkhana, adhi-sila, citta,panna or what? ... >I have done the Buddha's teaching. > The four discriminations ... S: The 4 patisambhidas - the greatest knowledges ... >and also the eight liberations are mine. ... S: The 8 lokuttara dhammas ... >I have realized the six direct knowledges.} ... S: The 6 abhinnas. So clearly here, all jhana attainments were realised. I don't think any indication is given of the timing - whether before or after arahantship? Not that it matters with regard to the development of insight. I believe we know from the texts,(eg. AN, Yuganadha Sutta), accumulations are very different in this regard. Metta, Sarah ========= #68048 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Wed Feb 7, 2007 3:55 am Subject: Re: what should be often contemplated. ken_aitch Hi Phil (and Nina), ------------ <. . .> Ph: > I think a wonderful thing about this and so many suttas is that it can be appreciated in a very helpful way at different levels. ------------ The only "levels" of Dhamma appreciation are pariyatti, patipatti and pativedha. They are respectively: right understanding at the level of theory, right understanding at the level of application, and right understanding at the level of completion. --------------------- Ph: > For me, it does not bring me directly to any consideration of present dhammas - my appreciation is much more conceptual, more conventional, related to ethical behaviour that arises (or doesn't) from any samvega, appamada etc. that the sutta conditions. For you and others, I think there is room for, capacity for, conditions for for deeper understanding. ---------------------- My advice is to forget about selves – yours or others' – and study the Dhamma. --------------------------- Ph: > Another sutta I like is one in AN in which it is said that it is through one's behaviour that wisdom shines; a wise person is known by his or her behaviour in body, speech and mind. The implications for me are clear; one is to do good deeds and avoid evil ones. For you, there will be consideration of the dhammas involved, and the "wisdom" that shines forth will be more related to deep understanding of paramattha dhammas. For me, it will be about basic discretion, the avoidance of things that are harmful to myself and others, and the doing of things that are helpful. That is enough for me, for now. It is more than enough, actually! :) ---------------------------- That is not even the beginning (pariyatti) level of Dhamma appreciation. Therefore it either wrong understanding or (at best) no understanding at all. Sorry to be so disagreeable. :-) Ken H #68049 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Feb 7, 2007 4:19 am Subject: [dsg] Re: 'We are here to learn the dhamma' scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, S: "... - a good summing up of my more long-winded comments, thank you." Hey, man! (generic): I like your 'long-winded comments' - how could I sum anything up otherwise? I call it 'learning'. It happens a lot for me around here. Thank you. Sincerely, Scott. #68050 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Feb 7, 2007 5:25 am Subject: Sincerity scottduncan2 Hey So Herman told me he needed sincerity and I was like, okay I'll do my best, or something and then, later, I went, whoa, what's 'sincerity'? And what's 'do my best' while I'm at it? So I looked into it: It turns out, first - and this is Anatta 101 - that I can't do my best, and for this I am sincerely sorry. And secondly, 'sincerity', it appears, is a quality of citta and the cetasikaa. (Nina and I discussed this from another perspective awhile back.) Look: Dhammasa"nga.ni: "1339 What is upright? Uprightness, without deflexion, twist, crookedness. [(1346) Tattha katamo ajjavo? Yaa ajjavataa ajimhataa ava.nkataa aku.tilataa - aya.m vuccati ajjavo.] 1340 What is soft? That which is plasticity, gentleness, smoothness, pliancy, lowliness of heart." [(1347) Tattha katamo maddavo? Yaa mudutaa maddavataa akakkha.lataa akathinataa niicacittataa - aya.m vuccati maddavo.] The irrepressible Mrs. R-D notes: "Ajjavo and maddavo... are synonymous with uj(j)ukataa and mudutaa..." "50 What on that occasion is rectitude (kaayajjukataa)? The straightness which there is on that occasion, the rectitude, without deflection, twist or crookedness, of the khandhas of feeling, perception, and synergies - this is the directness of mental factors that there then is" Atthasaalinii (pp.200-202): "'Plasticity' means soft state. Herein fine smoothness is called soft. The state of that is 'suavity.' 'Non-roughness' means the state of being not rough. 'Non-rigidity' means the state of being not rigid (hard)...'Rectitude' is the upright state. The state of procedure with an upright behaviour is the meaning. The state of the three upright aggregates and of the aggregate of consciousness is 'rectitude'...The teaching has been determined by the aggregates...are of the aggregates and not of the person." For good measure, Visuddhimagga,XIV: "146. The malleable state of the [mental] body is malleability of body. The malleable state of consciousness is malleability of consciousness. They have the characteristic of quieting rigidity in the [mental] body and in consciousness. Their function is to crush stiffening in the [mental] body and in consciousness. They are manifested as non-resistance. Their proximate cause is the [mental] body and consciousness. They should be regarded as opposed to defilements of views, conceit (pride), etc., which cause stiffening of the [mental] body and of consciousness. "149. The straight state of the [mental] body is rectitude of body. The straight state of consciousness is rectitude of consciousness. They have the characteristic of uprightness of the [mental] body and of consciousness. Their function is to crush tortuousness in the [mental] body and in consciousness. They are manifested as non-crookedness. Their proximate cause is the [mental] body and consciousness. They should be regarded as opposed to deceit, fraud, etc., which cause tortuousness in the [mental] body and in consciousness." So, it would appear that, when these factors arise in a moment of consciousness, this moment is endowed with what we self-afflicted ones like to call 'sincerity'. Since these are 'of the aggregates and not the person', I guess one will have to know them when one sees them. May there be smoothness and rectitude. "Sincerely", Scott. #68051 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Feb 7, 2007 12:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Gaps: Unecessary but Interesting upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 2/7/07 2:38:20 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > Hi Howard, (Andrew T &Joop), > > --- upasaka@... wrote: > >>>>My term meaning the impermanence characteristic of the present > >>>>reality as opposed to some conventional rendering about > >>>>the "impermanence of Joe Blogg's life". > >>> > >>>------------------------------------------ > >>>Howard: > >>> To me, that is jargon masquerading as knowledge. > <...> > .... > >H: Pardon me, please. I may well have come across as rude. I > simply > >meant > >that the phrase 'the impermanence characteristic of the present reality' > > > >strikes me as not conveying much. > ... > S: Yes, your comment was a bit strong this time as you appreciated:-). > ----------------------------------------- Howard: Yes - "strong" and off-putting. Had *I* been on the receiving end, I would have been quite annoyed. -------------------------------------- I> > thought the comment Andrew made was very clear. When the Buddha refers to > seeing (now) or any dhamma appearing as being impermanent, it's very > different from 'the impermanence of Joe Blogg's life' or any other > conventional idea of impermanence. > > I think it's very important to appreciate this difference (as I believe > you do, Howard) - otherwise it's easy to kid ourselves that we're > understanding what the Buddha talked about with regard to impermanence > when really it's just the usual kind of thinking about a dreamy idea of > 'everything in life being impermanent'. ----------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, there is a difference, an important one, though I don't think it is quite in terms of an impermanence characteristic in a "paramatthic" sense. I think it is still a matter of "now something is in effect, and then later, even very, very soon after, it is not". I suspect that when we think we're actually observing cessation, what is happening is that at one moment a phenomenon is observed to be present, and then, at what *seems* to be "the very next instant" it is gone, but, in fact, during that (relatively) tiny, tiny time interval, the phenomenon simply gradually decreases below the threshhold of cognizance, with no actual momentary instant-of-cessation ever observed. As to whether such a 0-duration instant-of-cessation is a reality or not, I'm non-commital, and I even consider it possible that in some cases it might exist and in others not. (But *always* there are subsequent times at which the phenomenon is no longer present. While I may question "cessation instants", I do not question non-remaining.) The main thing motivating me in this matter is a caution with regard to a danger in reifying impermanence. To me impermanence is best thought about in terms of appearance: Present at one moment, and later (even imperceptably later) not. Or, as the magician's patter goes, "Now you see it, now you don't!" Anicca, as anatta, is well thought of, I think, as a kind of illusionist's show - there is the appearance of something real and substantial present, and then, "Poof! It's gone!" -------------------------------------------------- > > Pointing out the truths is not jargon as I see it, but a helfpul reminder! ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Sometimes various ones of us - and I am a prime culprit in this - provide just a brief assertion, almost a mere slogan, without sufficient explanation to adequately convey the point that is intended. I viewed "the impermanence characteristic of the present reality" as an instance of this, but my rude reply was yet another instance that was the opposite of helpful. ----------------------------------------------- > > > I'm just butting in here as I think this point about impermanence is an > important one for us all to consider over and over again. As Joop > sometimes says, perhaps we don't discuss impermanence enough. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: I agree with you both. I think that if nothing but the tilakkhana and directly related matters were all that were ever discussed on a Dhamma discussion list, that list would be of inestimable value. ----------------------------------------------- > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======================== With metta, Howard #68052 From: "Joop" Date: Wed Feb 7, 2007 6:21 am Subject: Theragatha (Was: Re: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (17) jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connie wrote: > > Thanks, Joop! > > ... > back to my roost, > connie > Hallo Connie, all It's not my intention to start a series on the 'brothers' now. To me no battle of the sexes. But still I think you will not like this message of me. No use of commentaries of me; as you perhaps remember I'm not fond of them. The reason I put attention to this gatha is that (this part of) it is another kind than the most: Ananda is not an hero, not an arahant, not a saint, here Ananda is a human being, very human and very sad. He still has the capacity to mourn. In modern language Ananda can be called 'high sensitive', a nice men, nice to other beings, men and women (non all monks are) So I like Ananda having more the capacity to mourn than some others. But even nice men like Ananda (with a great ability to love) can awaken, can end his strong attachments to the Buddha and the other "old ones" like Sariputta. I can identify myself better which such a nice human being like Ananda than with many other persons occuring in the Suttas or Theratherigatha. Commentaries, I'm afraid will not make the kind of remarks I will make now: Only who fully can be a human, can transcend being a human Only who has an identity, can transcend it and 'live' anatta Only who can mourn, can detach To end with the alternative translation of #1036 of Hellmuth Hecker and Sister Khema " Today alone I meditate Like a bird gone to its nest." Metta and thanks for writing understandable english to me Joop #68053 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Feb 7, 2007 6:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Gaps: Unecessary but Interesting nilovg Hi Howard, just butting in into your conversation with Sarah. 'There is nothing, then there is a reality and then it is nowhere to be found.' We were reminded again in Kaeng Kracang of this. A dhamma arises because of conditions and then it is gone completely. This is perhaps similar to your: "Now you see it, now you don't!" But by words we cannot be sure that we mean the same. NIna. Op 7-feb-2007, om 14:36 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > The main thing motivating me in this matter is a caution with regard > to a danger in reifying impermanence. To me impermanence is best > thought about > in terms of appearance: Present at one moment, and later (even > imperceptably > later) not. Or, as the magician's patter goes, "Now you see it, now > you don't!" > Anicca, as anatta, is well thought of, I think, as a kind of > illusionist's > show - there is the appearance of something real and substantial > present, and > then, "Poof! It's gone!" #68054 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Feb 7, 2007 6:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Theriigaathaa - Sisters (11), Tevijja. nilovg Dear Sarah and Connie, usually to the ti-vijja: remembrance of former lives, knowledge of passing away and rebirth of beings, destruction of the cankers. See M, no 71; Tevijja Vacchagottasutta. Nina. Op 7-feb-2007, om 12:31 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > Welcome indeed was the presence of the Best of Buddhas to me. I have > > attained the three true knowledges. > .... > S: Is this a reference to the parinnas, the ti-lakkhana, adhi-sila, > citta,panna or what? #68055 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Feb 7, 2007 6:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: what should be often contemplated. nilovg Hi Phil, I understand your point of view. If we take dhammas less for self it will condition more kusala. We will be less absorbed in siuations and persons, like: he did this to me. When we understand: dhammas arising because of condiitons, less blaming, less dosa when people are unjust. Nina. Op 7-feb-2007, om 12:06 heeft Phil het volgende geschreven: > a wise person is known > by his or her behaviour in body, speech and mind. The implications > for me are clear; one is to do good deeds and avoid evil ones. #68056 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Feb 7, 2007 11:32 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily life, Ch 23, no 8. nilovg Dear friends, The ariyan knows that what the non-ariyan takes for happiness is dukkha; the non-ariyan takes for misery what the ariyan knows as happiness. The development of wisdom brings a kind of happiness which is different from what one used to take for happiness. Our defilements are the real cause of disturbance, worry and restlessness, they are the cause of all sorrow. Nibbåna is the end of lobha, dosa and moha, and thus the end of all sorrow. When one is not an ariyan one cannot really understand what nibbåna is. If we cannot experience yet the true nature of the conditioned dhammas which arise and fall away, we cannot experience the unconditioned dhamma, the dhamma which does not arise and fall away. As we have seen, there are four paramattha dhammas: citta, cetasika, rúpa and nibbåna. Citta, cetasika and rúpa are realities which arise and fall away, they are conditioned dhammas and thus dukkha. Nibbåna does not arise and fall away; it has no conditions through which it arises, it is an unconditioned dhamma. Nibbåna is the end to dukkha. If there were no cessation of dukkha the Buddha would not have taught the Path leading to the cessation of dukkha. However, since there is the cessation of dukkha, the Buddha taught the Path leading to it. We read in the Verses of Uplift (Udåna, chapter VIII, 3, Khuddaka Nikåya) that the Buddha, while he was staying in Anåthapiùèika's Park, said to the monks: Monks, there is a not-born, a not-become, a not-made, a not- compounded [1]. Monks, if that unborn, not-become, not-made, not- compounded were not, there would be apparent no escape from this here that is born, become, made, compounded [2]. But since, monks, there is an unborn... therefore the escape from this here that is born, become... is apparent. Nibbåna can be experienced at the attainment of enlightenment, but enlightenment cannot be attained unless paññå has been developed to the degree that it can experience the conditioned dhammas as they are: impermanent, dukkha and non-self (anattå). -------- [1] asankhata, unconditioned, not proceeding from conditions. [2] sankhata, conditioned. This is translated into English as “compounded” or “constructed”. It is that which is “put together” (sankharoti), produced, by the association of different conditions. ******* Nina. #68057 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Feb 7, 2007 11:37 am Subject: Letters on Vipassana 6, no 9 nilovg Dear friends, We should not lure ourselves into thinking that through satipaììhåna we shall have less aversion, dosa. First the wrong view of self has to be eradicated and only at the third stage of enlightenment, the stage of the non-returner, anågåmí, dosa is eradicated. Because of the study of the Buddha’s teachings we may notice that there is aversion, for example, when we are talking and we have unpleasant feeling. Then we are thinking about “our dosa”, we take it for self. Through satipatthåna we can learn to see defilements as conditioned realities which are non-self. Also when we see the disadvantage of akusala and we abstain from unwholesome speech, we should remember that it is not self who abstains, but a type of nåma arising because of its own conditions. We read in the scriptures about Såriputta’s generosity, humility and gentleness. He had no anger and could forgive anything. This can inspire us with confidence in the benefit of satipììhåna which eventually leads to the fulfillment of all the perfections. However, we should not forget that Såriputta had developed right understanding during countless lives until he had eradicated all defilements. He had reached arahatship. We read in the "Commentary to the Dhammapada" (XXVI,7, commentary to vs. 389, 390) about Såriputta's virtues. A brahman wanted to test his patience and therefore tried to provoke his anger. When Såriputta walked for alms he went behind him and struck him violently with his fist in the back. Såriputta said "What was that?", and then, without turning around to look, continued on his way. When the brahman became remorseful and asked forgiveness, Såriputta forgave him and accepted his invitation to receive food in his house. We read in the Commentary that the monks were discussing this incident and were offended about it that the brahman had struck Såriputta. The Buddha said to them: “Monks, no Brahman ever strikes another Brahman; it must have been a householder-Brahman who struck a monk-Brahman [1]; for when a man attains the fruit of the third Path (anågåmí or non-returner), all anger is utterly destroyed in him.” We then read that the Buddha explained the Dhamma and spoke the following stanzas, which are the verses 389 and 390 of the “Dhammapada”: vs. 389. One should not strike a brahman; a brahman should not vent (his wrath) on him. Shame on him who strikes a brahman! More shame on him who gives vent (to his wrath). vs. 390. Unto a brahman that (non-retaliation) is of no small advantage. When the mind is weaned from things dear, whenever the intent to harm ceases, then and then only sorrow subsides. When all defilements have been eradicated there is an end to dukkha. There is no attachment and when someone else behaves in an unpleasant way one has no feelings of resentment, no aversion. There is perfect calm. ---------- [1] In the scriptures the word brahman is used in the sense of the person who develops the eightfold Path leading to arahatship. The arahat has eradicated all defilements. ********* NIna. #68058 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Wed Feb 7, 2007 1:22 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Mystery of Consciousness egberdina Hi Joop, > > A problem I have is the same problem I have with Abhidhamma, a system > what I call a good - even an ultimate - individual psychology, but a > poor social-psychology. I agree with you. A system that cannot account for other minds, or in which another can only be an object, and not a subject, seems like a great foundation for solipsism. And so it turns out. Add to this an axiomatic momentariness of all objects, and the possibility of any shared reality is defined out of existence. But in doing so, such a system looses all capacity to account for fundamental realities like the emotions, and all other acts of bodily and verbal communication. There is nothing quite so insincere as an Abhidhammika that communicates. Because there is nothing that we communicate that is not acquired from, or for the benefit, of another. I think you are wasting your time if you are hoping to be able to combine being a person in a world of persons, and find a way of being in that world, an ethics, using the Abhidhamma and especially it's commentaries, as foundation. In denying the possibility of others and self as subject, the arahat, as ideal being in Buddhism, is exactly a zombie. The following is from a Buddhagosa commentary on the Satipatthana Sutta, and well demonstrates what you will encounter on this path to zombiehood. " The tiger, having taken the young bikkhu [Buddhist monk] up to a rocky place, a broken edge over a hollow spot inaccessible to the bikkhus, began to devour its prey from the feet upwards. The pursuing bikkhus said: "Good man, there is nothing that can be done by us. The extraordinary spiritual attainment of bikkhus is to be seen in such a place as that in which you are." Kind Regards Herman #68059 From: "m. nease" Date: Wed Feb 7, 2007 1:56 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] are all bad things that happen vipaaka? m_nease Hi Again Connie, Thanks for all of this, I'll try to puzzle through it--and, > Answer: see "the second half". Now that ain't funny, is it?... not 'at > all, 'It ain't. "I am a man of constant sorrow... "etc. No it ain't, and me too (I can hear Ralph Stanley as I type) > pss. I was going to send a jpg of me & The SacredCow, but she (influenced > by my mother, no doubt - just kidding, of course a mother loves her > child!) isn't sure she wants the guilt by association in recognition of > ...well, you know me &: "suffer not a fool!" uh, is that > [unilaterally-?}] a bad thing? Please do, please do-- Cheers, mn #68060 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Wed Feb 7, 2007 2:07 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions egberdina Hi TG, On 06/02/07, TGrand458@... wrote: > Hi Herman > > > Of course, it could be looked at as "new" or a "sum," but both of those > outlooks, for me, do not account for the "fluidity" and lack of essence of > conditions. > I appreciate the lack of essence of conditions. Conditions are not experienced, at all. They are inferences. One cannot describe conditions, one describes thoughts of conditions. > > To put it another way, can the > coming together of conditions produce a condition which is different > in nature to it's component conditions. > TG: No. But this needs to be thought of deeply. I.E., the "nature" of > component conditions may not be what we'd think they are on the surface or may > be more complex than they appear. > I agree. I like the way you emphasise thought here. > TG: I'm not a chemist, but obviously a certain configuration of these > elements are able to interact as coalescence/water. > > Each of the 4 Great Elements are relative to the other three. > Yes, the notion of absolute experience seems entirely fictional to me. > > > But does an atta view become a new > condition, capable of creating a chain of causality that it's > component causes cannot bring about? > TG: This question again pits a separation of cause and effect that I think > cannot be separated. > Conditions are explanations for experience. It is actually not necessary to explain phenomena is it? Explanations are inseperable from atta view, they require a third-person perspective on what is being explained. > However, based on the conditions that generate the (self) view and the view > thus generated, other outcomes then cascade forth...such as killing, stealing, > etc. > > (For me, the way to deal with anatta vs atta and to keep it clear is not to > focus on them, but to focus on causality. None of these things "have their > own power or determining effect," its just natural forces unfolding.) > I understand what you are saying, but this focussing requires a certain attitude of mind, so to speak. There can be no pure mindfulness of causality. To be able to focus on causality requires an atta perspective, and from that persceptive there can only be mindfulness of thinking about causality. > > If not, what is it that > recognises and tries to avoid / deny views if not already an atta > view? > TG: Human endeavor is based on feeling. Efforts seek after pleasantness > and avoid unpleasantness. Wisdom may arise in an effort to avoid > unpleasantness. Wisdom is detached from self view to some extent or another. > Knowledge/insight is "what recognizes and tries to avoid." It is CONDITIONS that > avoid/deny...if and when such avoidance and denial takes places. The appearance of > a Buddha, for example, increases those conditions. > > Your question may presuppose that atta is a framework for the attempt to > avoid atta. This would make it seem impossible to accomplish the task. Indeed > it makes it near impossible. That's why the objectivity of mindfulness needs > strict application in order for insight to realize anatta. > I much appreciate what you are saying, and you have well understood the gist of my post. At this point in time, I cannot reconcile any specific understanding of conditionality with insight into anatta. To me, to "understand" all phenomena that are mindfully known, as being caused, is no understanding at all. It is merely the adoption of a point of view for which there is no basis in mindfulness. In fact, it is only when mindfulness takes no position beyond what is given, that there is understanding of anatta. And that understanding is not in the form of a point of view on anatta/atta, it is nothing more than being present to what is happening. Notions of causality/acausality simply play no role at all. But I think you are saying as much as well? > > If anatta is the only reality, how can atta view be causal of > anything? > TG: The surface appearance of things does not reveal anatta. Things appear > to have "their own essence" because change and conditionality are somewhat > stealthy. Even those of us pursuing this knowledge are most of the time > blinded by the apparent static-ness of states. This view is atta view and > ignorance. > > In a world where all is anatta, atta view arises because minds do not pay > attention to impermanence, affliction, no-self. Minds "ignore" the actuality > of conditionality: not intentionally, they just don't KNOW any better. > > Atta is associated with ignorance. They have very powerful causal > consequences and propel human action. The 12 Fold Chain encapsulates the process. > > > > > I hope these comments had some relevance to your questions. > > They certainly have, and I much appreciate them. Kind Regards Herman #68061 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Feb 7, 2007 2:40 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mind and Control jonoabb Phil (and Chris) Phil wrote: > Hi Chris > > >> Phil, Please be at ease, no apology necessary - I've made my >> fair share of comments on dsg and elsewhere that I later >> thought would have been better left unsaid. And truthfully, >> yours didn't cause a ruffle. :-) >> > > Thanks, I didn't really think it did. Confidence in Dhamma really > makes us pretty immune to people implying that we're not "getting it," > doesn't it? > Well said, Phil. I (and others here) can relate to that ;-)) Jon #68062 From: "joelaltman26" Date: Wed Feb 7, 2007 3:00 pm Subject: Re: pa~n~natti and cohesion. joelaltman26 Dear Nina, thank you for your clarifications. i now understand that i have been chunking realities and concepts together, and this has helped to stress that citta really only experiences one arumana at a time, and then immediately it falls away and another appears. it also reminds me that i need to be patient and allow the realities to emerge and the elements (cetasikas) to develop... to have more refined and precise understanding from moment to moment of the invididual cittas that are zipping by. with metta, joel #68063 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Feb 7, 2007 10:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions upasaka_howard Hi, Herman (and TG) - I'm addressing only two points below, and snipping the rest. In a message dated 2/7/07 5:09:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, hhofmeister@... writes: > Hi TG, > > On 06/02/07, TGrand458@... wrote: > >Hi Herman > > > > > >Of course, it could be looked at as "new" or a "sum," but both of those > >outlooks, for me, do not account for the "fluidity" and lack of essence of > >conditions. > > > > I appreciate the lack of essence of conditions. Conditions are not > experienced, at all. They are inferences. One cannot describe > conditions, one describes thoughts of conditions. ----------------------------------------- Howard: Asserting that conditions - the events themselves, not names for them or ways of thinking about them - are not experienced but only inferred is a presumption that flies in the face of the very common sense that you are so devoted to! ;-) Why bring up that one can't (adequately) describe conditions? When I tell you that I experience hardness, how do you know what I mean? We assign the same name to corresponding experiences. Concepts are needed for communication - person to person, and internally for thinking. That's all. We need no concept to feel heat or the prick of a pin. The heat and the sharp pressure, the wordless phenomena, are actual elements of experience. ---------------------------------------- > > > Conditions are explanations for experience. It is actually not > necessary to explain phenomena is it? Explanations are inseperable > from atta view, they require a third-person perspective on what is > being explained. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: The word 'condition' is no worse than the word 'experience'. These names are needed for pointing to, when communicating. The phenomenon itself is "just that". The name is extra. ------------------------------------------------- > > Kind Regards > > > > Herman > ======================== With metta, Howard #68064 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Wed Feb 7, 2007 4:14 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions egberdina Hi Howard, Thanks for your comments. > > I appreciate the lack of essence of conditions. Conditions are not > > experienced, at all. They are inferences. One cannot describe > > conditions, one describes thoughts of conditions. > > ----------------------------------------- > Howard: > Asserting that conditions - the events themselves, It is not my usage to equate conditions with phenomena. The phenomenal aspects of events, and what is said about them as to what conditioned them to arise or cease, a la paccaya, are not at all identical, in my usage. > ------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > The word 'condition' is no worse than the word 'experience'. These > names are needed for pointing to, when communicating. The phenomenon itself is > "just that". The name is extra. > ------------------------------------------------- See above. If your usage has always been that the word condition refers to the quality of the phenomenon rather than what contributed to it's arising, then I probably have misunderstood everything you have ever said :-) Kind Regards Herman #68065 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Feb 7, 2007 4:25 pm Subject: Vism.XVII,131 Vism.XVII,132 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga), Ch. XVII 131. The eight sense-sphere consciousnesses with root-cause ((42)-(49)) occur accomplishing three functions, namely, the function of 'registration' (m) in the six doors in the way already stated, the function of 'life-continuum' (b) after re-birth-linking given by themselves, as long as there is no thought-arising to interrupt the life-continuum, and lastly the function of 'death' (n) at the end. And they are invariable as to [possession of heart-] basis, and variable as to door, position, and function. 132. The five fine-material consciousnesses ((57)-(61)) and the four immaterial consciousnesses ((62)-(65)) occur accomplishing two functions, namely, the function of 'life-continuum' (b) that continues after rebirth-linking given by themselves, as long as there is no thought-arising to interrupt the life-continuum, and the function of 'death' (n) at the end. As regards these, those of the fine-material sphere are invariable as to [possession of heart-] basis and as to their object, and they are variable as to position and function, while the others occur invariably without [heart-] basis, and they are invariable as to object, and variable as to position and function. This, in the first place, is how the thirty-twofold resultant consciousness occurs in the course of an individual existence with formations as condition. And there [in the course of an existence] these several formations are conditions, as kamma condition and decisive-support condition, for this [thirty-twofold resultant consciousness]. ********************* 131. a.t.tha kaamaavacarasahetukacittaani vuttanayeneva chasu dvaaresu tadaaramma.nakicca.m, attanaa dinnapa.tisandhito uddha.m asati bhava"ngupacchedake cittuppaade bhava"ngakicca.m, ante cutikicca~ncaati tii.ni kiccaani saadhayamaanaani niyatavatthukaani aniyatadvaaraaramma.na.t.thaanakiccaani hutvaa pavattanti. 132. pa~nca ruupaavacaraani cattaari ca aaruppaani attanaa dinnapa.tisandhito uddha.m asati bhava"ngupacchedake cittuppaade bhava"ngakicca.m, ante cutikicca~ncaati kiccadvaya.m saadhayamaanaani pavattanti. tesu ruupaavacaraani niyatavatthaaramma.naani aniyata.t.thaanakiccaani, itaraani niyataavatthukaani niyataaramma.naani aniyata.t.thaanakiccaani hutvaa pavattantiiti eva.m taava baatti.msavidhampi vi~n~naa.na.m pavattiya.m sa"nkhaarapaccayaa pavattati. tatraassa te te sa"nkhaaraa kammapaccayena ca upanissayapaccayena ca paccayaa honti. #68066 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Feb 7, 2007 12:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions upasaka_howard Hi, Herman - In a message dated 2/7/07 7:18:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, hhofmeister@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > Thanks for your comments. > > > >>I appreciate the lack of essence of conditions. Conditions are not > >>experienced, at all. They are inferences. One cannot describe > >>conditions, one describes thoughts of conditions. > > > >----------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > Asserting that conditions - the events themselves, > > > > It is not my usage to equate conditions with phenomena. The phenomenal > aspects of events, and what is said about them as to what conditioned > them to arise or cease, a la paccaya, are not at all identical, in my > usage. > > > >------------------------------------------------ > >Howard: > > The word 'condition' is no worse than the word 'experience'. These > >names are needed for pointing to, when communicating. The phenomenon itself > is > >"just that". The name is extra. > >------------------------------------------------- > > See above. If your usage has always been that the word condition > refers to the quality of the phenomenon rather than what contributed > to it's arising, then I probably have misunderstood everything you > have ever said :-) --------------------------------------------- Howard: LOL! Maybe so. All I know are phenomena - elements of experience. When I view such as contributing to the arising of other phenomena, I refer to it as a condition. --------------------------------------------- > > Kind Regards > > > > Herman > ====================== With metta, Howard #68067 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Feb 7, 2007 5:52 pm Subject: Re: what should be often contemplated. buddhatrue Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > I think a wonderful thing about this and so many suttas is that it > can be appreciated in a very helpful way at different levels. For > me, it does not bring me directly to any consideration of present > dhammas - my appreciation is much more conceptual, more > conventional, related to ethical behaviour that arises (or doesn't) > from any samvega, appamada etc. that the sutta conditions. For you > and others, I think there is room for, capacity for, conditions for > for deeper understanding. I have been noticing a theme in your posts lately and I thought I should comment. The theme goes something like this, "I have such gross defilements so I need the practice of meditation, but you others have such deeper understanding that maybe you don't need it. You can see the characteristics of dhammas much more readily than I can…blah, blah, blah…" I know that you are trying to be diplomatic, kind, and considerate, but really you are doing these people you address a great disservice. They can't see the characteristics of dhammas more easily than you can; they just know how to talk! Everyone, everyone without exception, must follow the Noble Eightfold Path to develop wisdom- and the Eightfold Path requires intentional practice. Phil, you are doing the right thing by practicing daily meditation and intentional mindfulness (including guarding the sense doors), they are not doing the right thing! They just read, read, read, talk, talk, talk, read, read, read, talk, talk, talk. The last thing they need to be told is that they don't need intentional practice because they are special- they are already too full of themselves as it is!! I am really glad that you have escaped the influence of KS and have begun, again, the real practice of the Buddha. I wish that I could take some credit, with my bombastic posts to you, but they probably just drove you more into the arms of KS. But I am glad that the little, loving voice of Han woke you up. Now, as you begin the real practice, you can see that it is a scary proposition. How far will it go?? Will you lose desire for Naomi and hurt her? Will you abandon your career and disappoint your family? I sometimes face the same types of concerns. But I think it is better to forget such thoughts about a possible future and focus on right now. And when samvegga calls, there is no choice but to answer. Best wishes for your continued practice. Metta, James #68068 From: TGrand458@... Date: Wed Feb 7, 2007 1:57 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions TGrand458@... Hi Herman I just wanted to comment on two points which are both related. In a message dated 2/7/2007 3:10:29 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, hhofmeister@... writes: I understand what you are saying, but this focussing requires a certain attitude of mind, so to speak. There can be no pure mindfulness of causality. To be able to focus on causality requires an atta perspective, and from that persceptive there can only be mindfulness of thinking about causality. TG: I agree that when the unenlightened mind dissects elements it posits a type of self view in the process. A necessary "evil" in order to make progress. Without knowledge we don't make progress. So we have to muddle through step by step until the knowledge become INTUITIVE. Much like someone learning to play the piano at first has to struggle with fingering and reading music. Later, if accomplished at the piano, these step are no longer barriers to the playing. > > If not, what is it that > recognises and tries to avoid / deny views if not already an atta > view? > TG: Human endeavor is based on feeling. Efforts seek after pleasantness > and avoid unpleasantness. Wisdom may arise in an effort to avoid > unpleasantness. Wisdom is detached from self view to some extent or another. > Knowledge/insight is "what recognizes and tries to avoid." It is CONDITIONS that > avoid/deny.. avoid/deny...if and when such avoidance and denial takes places. > a Buddha, for example, increases those conditions. > > Your question may presuppose that atta is a framework for the attempt to > avoid atta. This would make it seem impossible to accomplish the task. Indeed > it makes it near impossible. That's why the objectivity of mindfulness needs > strict application in order for insight to realize anatta. > I much appreciate what you are saying, and you have well understood the gist of my post. At this point in time, I cannot reconcile any specific understanding of conditionality with insight into anatta. To me, to "understand" all phenomena that are mindfully known, as being caused, is no understanding at all. It is merely the adoption of a point of view for which there is no basis in mindfulness. In fact, it is only when mindfulness takes no position beyond what is given, that there is understanding of anatta. And that understanding is not in the form of a point of view on anatta/atta, it is nothing more than being present to what is happening. Notions of causality/acausalitpresent play no role at all. But I think you are saying as much as well? TG: Because of anatta, the understanding of anatta is a possibility. So to some extent I would credit whatever level the understanding of conditionality is to no-self. Even if it is a tainted or very fleeting understanding. The more we practice, the more that understanding persists. I do think arahats well understand anatta, and yet are able to think about anatta and atta issues without losing that understanding or without atta view arising. Thanks for your kind words. TG #68069 From: TGrand458@... Date: Wed Feb 7, 2007 2:03 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions TGrand458@... Hi Herman, Howard In a message dated 2/7/2007 5:16:06 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, hhofmeister@... writes: Hi Howard, Thanks for your comments. > > I appreciate the lack of essence of conditions. Conditions are not > > experienced, at all. They are inferences. One cannot describe > > conditions, one describes thoughts of conditions. > > ------------ ---- ---- ---- > Howard: > Asserting that conditions - the events themselves, It is not my usage to equate conditions with phenomena. The phenomenal aspects of events, and what is said about them as to what conditioned them to arise or cease, a la paccaya, are not at all identical, in my usage. TG: For the record, I do equate phenomena with conditions with the possible exception of Nibbana...which I'm not sure is a phenomena or not; but it is certainly not a condition. > ------------ ---- ---- ---- ---- > Howard: > The word 'condition' is no worse than the word 'experience' The wo > names are needed for pointing to, when communicating. The phenomenon itself is > "just that". The name is extra. > ------------ ---- ---- ---- ---- See above. If your usage has always been that the word condition refers to the quality of the phenomenon rather than what contributed to it's arising, then I probably have misunderstood everything you have ever said :-) TG: Would not "phenomena" also be something that contributed to arising? Just a thought. Kind Regards Herman TG #68070 From: "Phil" Date: Wed Feb 7, 2007 7:42 pm Subject: Re: what should be often contemplated. philofillet Hi Ken > That is not even the beginning (pariyatti) level of Dhamma > appreciation. Therefore it either wrong understanding or (at best) no > understanding at all. > > Sorry to be so disagreeable. :-) No problem at all. I am still waiting for that moment in which Bhikkhu Bodhi (in commentarial notes and recorded talks) Nyanaponika Thera (in "Heart of Buddhist Meditation" and "Roots of Good and Evil") or any one of the three Burmese sayadaws I listen to says anything that makes me think "hey, that sounds like Ken H!" It hasn't happened yet. That doesn't mean that they are all right and you are wrong, just that the focus provided by the teachers/commentators I pay attention to now is clearly quite different from yours. Which is cool. Different strokes for different folks. Metta, Phil p.s always feel free to add comments to anything I post but you'll find that I'm unwilling to (or too lazy to?) get in any debates. Sorry. I hope I can someday. #68071 From: "Phil" Date: Wed Feb 7, 2007 7:58 pm Subject: Re: what should be often contemplated. philofillet Hi James > I have been noticing a theme in your posts lately and I thought I > should comment. The theme goes something like this, "I have such > gross defilements so I need the practice of meditation, but you > others have such deeper understanding that maybe you don't need it. > You can see the characteristics of dhammas much more readily than I > can?Elah, blah, blah?Equot; I know that you are trying to be diplomatic, > kind, and considerate, but really you are doing these people you > address a great disservice. You got me, James! :) I'm just trying to find a way to continue posting here without getting into debates, so go out of my way these days to be conciliatory. That's a skill, I think. No need to try to sort out everybody's views, just look at our own. On the other hand, there is the perfection of truthfulness. I thought the long posts you wrote to Scott about jhanas were remarkable. Such an applied, diligent effort on your part to get what you know to be the truth across. I don't have the time/energy/ability to do that so just duck out as soon as possible. > Now, as you begin the real > practice, you can see that it is a scary proposition. Not at all. I am not practicing in pursuit of earthshaking insight. I am practicing in the way I sense the Buddha wanted householders to practice. My philosophy is wrapped up in this simple passage from Anguttara Nikaya: "His action marks the fool, his action marks the wise person, O monks. Wisdom shines forth in behaviour...by three things the wise person can be known: by good conduct of body, speech and mind." Nothing there that need shake up my life. > How far will > it go?? Will you lose desire for Naomi and hurt her? Will you > abandon your career and disappoint your family? I sometimes face the > same types of concerns. But I think it is better to forget such > thoughts about a possible future and focus on right now. And when > samvegga calls, there is no choice but to answer. Best wishes for > your continued practice. Thanks James. What I wrote above doesn't mean that I think householders are excluded from a more rigorous approach to the Dhamma. We know from the texts that householders can make full (?) attainments. This householder, however, just wants to be more helpful and less harmful to others. I find meditating in the morning sets the table for the above to happen in a very undeniable way by setting up more guarding of the sense doors, more consistent abstaining from harsh speech, greedy and hateful thought patterns etc. (More consistent, not perfectly consistent. More consistent is good enough.) Metta, Phil p.s you will probably see more of the "you understand better than I do" approach. I think it is better than telling someone that they don't understand. The latter, as you say, just drives people more firmly into the arms of their views. #68072 From: "Leo" Date: Wed Feb 7, 2007 7:02 pm Subject: Re: on art continued - indian poster leoaive --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > > Hi Leo > > If I were a Buddhist artist painting that subject, I would put a > river in the background, with a beautiful woman with a golden pot. That > way people could practice not being attracted by the beautiful woman. I > heard that when the Buddha was near enlightenment, a woman brought him > wonderful alms in a gold pot, or something. <....> Hi I personally think, that women would be extra. If you are making Buddha as relic, then it should contain Buddha, three robes and tree and mountain with trees and river too or lake and bowl. If it is a historical painting, then women or whatever is historical is ok. To compare cold snow to purity can be a bit dangerous. Some might think it is the right way and take it and get sick. So you need to be carefull what you represent as high value. That is my guess. Leo #68073 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Feb 7, 2007 8:49 pm Subject: Inevitable Consequences! bhikkhu5 Friends: Results of Immoral Actions are Inevitably Painful! The Blessed Buddha once said: The destroying and cruel killing of living beings, Bhikkhus & Friends, committed, carried out, and often pursued, leads to Hell, the animal world, or the realm of ghosts. Even the least result of killing living beings brings a short life. Killing brings bad future & quick death!!! The taking of other people's belongings, committed, carried out, and often pursued, leads to Hell, the animal world, or the realm of hungry ghosts. Even the slightest result of stealing other people's belongings brings the future loss of one's own goods and poverty!!! Adultery and illegitimate sex, committed, carried out, and often pursued, leads to Hell, rebirth as animal, or in realm of ugly ghosts. Even the minimum result of unlawful sex brings enmity & rivalry!!! Lying, committed, carried out, and often pursued, leads to Hell, the animal world, or the realm of ghosts. Even the weakest result of lying brings future false accusations, blame, & evil complaints!!! Tale-bearing, slander, divisive speech of gossip & malicious rumours committed, carried out, & often done, leads to Hell, animal world, or the realm of, ghosts. Even the slightest result of tale-bearing brings discord, disagreement, and conflict even with one's friends!!! Harsh, hurting, and aggressive speech, committed, carried out, and often pursued, leads to rebirth in Hell, rebirth in the animal world, or the realm of ghosts. Even the smallest result of abusive language brings back future relentless, rude and ruthless verbal scolding!!! Vain & empty gossip, prattle, and hearsay committed, carried out, and often pursued, leads to Hell, the animal world, or the realm of ghosts. Even the least result of vain and void prattle brings future hearing of unacceptable and disagreeable stories and words!!! Drinking intoxicating drinks, such as wine and liquor, committed, carried out, and often pursued, leads to rebirth in Hell, the animal world, or the realm of hungry ghosts. Even the minutest result of drinking alcoholic drinks brings future dementia and insanity!!! Beings are owners of their actions (kamma), inheritor of their own actions, are created by their actions, and linked to their actions!!! Their actions produce, condition and create their future destiny... Whatever action they perform; good as evil, the resulting reaction and consequential effects will be only theirs! Be careful! Kamma causes & creates the rebirth! A shadow that never leaves! Source: Numerical Discourses of the Buddha. Anguttara Nikaya AN 8:40 + 10:205 http://What-Buddha-Said.net/Canon/Sutta/AN/Index.Numerical.htm For details on the mechanics of Kamma = Action see: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/Kamma_is_intention.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/Buddha_on_Kamma.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/Good_Action_dilutes_Evil_Kamma.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/Kamma_leading_to_short_ &_long_life.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/Effect_of_Action_(kamma)_is_Delayed.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/Kamma_leading_to_Health_ &_Sickness.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/Kamma_leading_to_Low_or_High_Birth.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/Kamma_leading_to_Wealth_or_Poverty.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/Kamma_leading_to_Beauty_ &_Ugliness.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/Kamma_leading_to_Power_or_Disrespect.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/Evil_Kamma_enhances_other_Evil_Kamma.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/Kamma_leading_to_Stupidity_or_Intelligence.\ htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/Good_Action_enhances_other_Good_Kamma.htm Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Ceylon * <....> #68074 From: connie Date: Wed Feb 7, 2007 9:10 pm Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (11) nichiconn Hi Sarah, (Nina,) (I'm savouring the installments at a leisurely pace, thank you for all your wonderful work, adding the Pruitt, Pali and so on!) I'll try not to be overly sporadic... (yes, i'm stalling as we speak) nothing much to add below -- a Brother's crooked things verse and Pruitt's footnotes to complement your minimalist definitions ;) -- > O free, indeed! O gloriously free > Am I in freedom from three crooked things: - > From quern, from mortar, from my crookback'd lord! *100 > Ay, but I'm free from rebirth and from death, > And all that dragged me back is hurled away. (11) .... S: 2 brief comments- 1. Again no reference here or in the commentary which follows to anything other than insight being developed 'till she won Arahantship', but see below.... 2. 'freedom from...three crooked things.....my crookback'd lord' (Pruitt: well released...three crooked things...my crooked husband'. A good example of it being the cittas (rather than any p.c./non p.c. comments) that count perhaps:-) <...> connie: i don't remember whether i included this footnote before -- (rd): < *100 The Thera Sumangala also celebrates his release from three crooked things - the sickle, the plough, and the spade. See Ps. xxi. > but following it up -- ATI: Sumangala (Thag 1.43) {v. 43} So freed! So freed! So thoroughly freed am I from three crooked things: my sickles, my shovels, my plows. Even if they were here, right here, I'd be done with them, done. Do jhana, Sumangala. Do jhana, Sumangala. Sumangala, stay heedful. (stand back! "Do what?") > Welcome indeed was the presence of the Best of Buddhas to me. I have > attained the three true knowledges. nina: usually to the ti-vijja: remembrance of former lives, knowledge of passing away and rebirth of beings, destruction of the cankers. See M, no 71; Tevijja Vacchagottasutta. connie: aka "threefold lore". pruitt's footnotes -- **p48 n4: The three true knowledges are given at Th-a II 10 ad v.129: (1) dibba-ccakkhu-~naa.na.m (knowledge of the divine eye), (2) pubbe-nivaasa-~naa.na.m (knowledge of former lives), (3) aasava-kkhaya-~naa.na.m (knowledge of the destruction of the taints). Cf M I 22f (MLDB 105f), where knowledge of the divine eye is given as knowledge of disappearance and reappearance (of beings) (cutuupapatti-~naa.na). For "I have done the Buddha's teaching," see Th-a I 85 ad v. 24. > I have done the Buddha's teaching. > The four discriminations ... S: The 4 patisambhidas - the greatest knowledges ... ** p12, n1: Discrimination of (1) meaning (attha-), (2) phenomena (dhamma-), (3) language (nirutti-), and (4) analytic insight (pa.tibhaana-pa.tisambhidaa). See PC 377-82. > and also the eight liberations are mine. ... S: The 8 lokuttara dhammas ... **p12, n2: Liberation [through absorption states] (1) through seeing internal forms, (2) through seeing external forms, (3) through being resolved on the beautiful; liberation [through the immaterial attainments of] (4) the base of infinite space, (5) the base of infinite consciousness, (6) the base of nothingness, (7) the bae of neither-perception-nor-non-perception; and liberation (8) through the cessation of sensations and perceptions. See D ii 10f. (LDB 229), M ii 12f (MLDB 638f), and the explantion in MLDB pp 128f, n.764. > I have realized the six direct knowledges.} ... S: The 6 abhinnas. ... **p12, n3: Direct knowledge of (1) the supernormal powers, (2) the divine ear element, (3) penetration of minds, (4) recollection of past lives, (5) knowledge of the passing away and reappearance of beings, (6) knowledge of the destruction of the taints. See M i 34f. (MLDB 116f). peace, connie ... So clearly here, all jhana attainments were realised. I don't think any indication is given of the timing - whether before or after arahantship? Not that it matters with regard to the development of insight. I believe we know from the texts,(eg. AN, Yuganadha Sutta), accumulations are very different in this regard. #68075 From: connie Date: Wed Feb 7, 2007 9:10 pm Subject: Are all the bad things that happen to us results of our deeds? nichiconn > When one can't pin down as a truth or reality what should &shouldn't be > done, one dwells bewildered &unprotected. One cannot righteously refer to > oneself as a contemplative. This was my first righteous refutation of > those priests &contemplative who hold to such teachings, such views." > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.061.than.html > hi Ken, Howard, If nothing else, there's always the practicality of the 'appeal to authority'. I can't say I know just "what should and shouldn't be done", but I'd be inclined to look for any 'practical application' in the following part of the sutta: << ...this Dhamma taught by me is unrefuted, undefiled, blameless, not faulted by knowledgeable priests & contemplatives. And which Dhamma taught by me is unrefuted, undefiled, blameless, not faulted by knowledgeable priests & contemplatives? 'There are these six properties' is a Dhamma taught by me that is unrefuted, undefiled, blameless, not faulted by knowledgeable priests & contemplatives. 'There are these six media of sensory contact' is a Dhamma taught by me that is unrefuted, undefiled, blameless, not faulted by knowledgeable priests & contemplatives. 'There are these eighteen explorations for the intellect' is a Dhamma taught by me that is unrefuted, undefiled, blameless, not faulted by knowledgeable priests & contemplatives. 'There are these four noble truths' is a Dhamma taught by me that is unrefuted, undefiled, blameless, not faulted by knowledgeable priests & contemplatives." >> and i can't resist: Disclosure: << 203. < There are three fool's characteristics of a fool ... He is a speaker of the ill-spoken, a cogitator of the ill-cogitated, a doer of the ill-done > (M.iii,163). 204. Herein, that he is aggressive by body or by speech, this is his state of a "doer of the ill done". And likewise the false speech he speaks as already demonstrated is his state of a "speaker of the ill-spoken". And that he intends the mental misconduct consisting in ill-will, this is his state of a "cogitator of the ill-cogitated". Since he is possessed of these fool's characteristics, he exists with the three types of pain and grief [correspondingly] born therefrom. And when he has gone to a meeting or gone to an assembly he talks the type of talk born therefrom. And when this tenfold course of unprofitable action beginning with killing breathing things comes into being, with that as source he experiences pain and grief. Furthermore, when he sees a felon who has offended the king arrested by the king and put to death, then it occurs to him "If the king knew about me, he might have me put to death too (cf. M.iii,163-4), and with that as source [63] he experiences pain and grief. Furthermore < when a fool is on his chair ... down to ...that will be my destination > (cf. M.iii,164-5), with that as source he experiences pain and grief. 205. Accordingly, the fool's characteristic is the cause, the three [corresponding] kinds of pain born therefrom are the outcome, and that on the dissolution of the body he reappears in hell is the fruit (cf.§198-9). This is expressed in terms of hate. >> ;) - anonymous ps, mike: have the cows come home? #68076 From: connie Date: Wed Feb 7, 2007 9:24 pm Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (19) nichiconn -- Abhiruupa-Nandaa theriigaathaava.n.nanaa, part 1 dear Friends, To begin, a bit from the DPPN: << The verses quoted in the Theriigaathaa Commentary, as having been taken from the Apadaana, really belong to Mettaa, and are found in the Apadaana (ii. 515) ascribed to Ekapindadaayikaa. The correct verses are found in the Apadaana under the name of Abhiruupa Nandaa, and agree with the story given in the text of the Theriigaathaa Commentary. >> ok: Dukanipaate aatura.m asuci.m puutinti-aadikaa abhiruupanandaaya sikkhamaanaaya gaathaa. Aya.m kira vipassissa bhagavato kaale bandhumatiinagare gahapatimahaasaalassa dhiitaa hutvaa satthu santike dhamma.m sutvaa sara.nesu ca siilesu ca pati.t.thitaa satthari parinibbute dhaatucetiya.m ratanapa.tima.n.ditena suva.n.nacchattena puuja.m katvaa, kaala"nkatvaa sagge nibbattitvaa aparaapara.m sugatiisuyeva sa.msarantii In the section of paired [verses] beginning [Nandaa see the body,] diseased, impure, rotten are the verses of the trainee Abhiruupa-Nandaa. It is said she was the daughter of a wealthy householder in the town of Bandhumantii during the time of the Blessed One Vipassii. She heard the doctrine from the Teacher and stood firm in virtuous conduct and the refuges. After the Teacher's [final] quenching, she made an offering of a golden umbrella decorated with gems at a shrine [with his] relics. When she died, she was reborn in a heaven and journeyed on in various happy existences. imasmi.m buddhuppaade kapilavatthunagare khemakassa sakkassa aggamahesiyaa kucchismi.m nibbatti. Nandaatissaa naama.m ahosi. Saa attabhaavassa ativiya ruupasobhaggappattiyaa abhiruupaa dassaniiyaa paasaadikaa abhiruupanandaatveva pa~n~naayittha. Tassaa vayappattaaya vaareyyadivaseyeva varabhuuto sakyakumaaro kaalamakaasi. Atha na.m maataapitaro akaama.m pabbaajesu.m. During this Buddha era, she was reborn in the womb of the chief wife of Khemaka the Sakyan in the town of Kapilavatthu. She was named Nandaa. She was known as Abhiruupa-Nandaa ["beautiful Nandaa"] because of the exceeding beauty of her body, [being] beautiful (abhiruupa), fair to behold, of serene loveliness. Now on the very day of her marriage, when she came of age, [her fiancee] the young Sakyan Varabhuuta died. Then her mother and father reluctantly had her go forth. Saa pabbajitvaapi ruupa.m nissaaya uppannamadaa "satthaa ruupa.m viva.n.neti garahati anekapariyaayena ruupe aadiinava.m dassetii"ti buddhupa.t.thaana.m na gacchati. Bhagavaa tassaa ~naa.naparipaaka.m ~natvaa mahaapajaapati.m aa.naapesi "sabbaapi bhikkhuniyo pa.tipaa.tiyaa ovaada.m aagacchantuu"ti. Saa attano vaare sampatte a~n~na.m pesesi. Bhagavaa "vaare sampatte attanaava aagantabba.m, na a~n~naa pesetabbaa"ti aaha. Saa satthu aa.na.m la"nghitu.m asakkontii bhikkhuniihi saddhi.m buddhupa.t.thaana.m agamaasi. But although she went forth, she was intoxicated by her beauty and said, "The Teacher disparages and finds fault with beauty. In many ways he shows the danger of beautiful form." And she did not go in attendance on the Buddha. The Blessed One knew of her mature knowledge, so he gave orders to Mahaa-Pajaapatii Gotamii, saying "All the bhikkhuniis are to come in turn for instruction." When [Abhiruupa-Nandaa's] own turn came, she sent someone else. The Blessed One said, "When your turn comes, you must come yourself; someone else must not be sent." She was not able to ignore the Teacher's order, so she went to attend on the Buddha together with the bhikkhuniis. Bhagavaa iddhiyaa eka.m abhiruupa.m itthiruupa.m maapetvaa puna jaraaji.n.na.m dassetvaa sa.mvega.m uppaadetvaa- 19. "Aatura.m asuci.m puuti.m, passa nande samussaya.m; asubhaaya citta.m bhaavehi, ekagga.m susamaahita.m. 20. "Animitta~nca bhaavehi, maanaanusayamujjaha; tato maanaabhisamayaa, upasantaa carissasii"ti.- Imaa dve gaathaa abhaasi. With his supernormal powers the Blessed One made the form of a beautiful woman appear, then showed it decrepit with age, causing a profound stirring to arise in her. And he spoke these two verses: 19. Nandaa, see the body, diseased, impure, rotten. Develop the mind, intent and well concentrated, for contemplation of the unpleasant. 20. And develop the signless, cast out the latent tendency to conceit. Then by the full understanding of conceit, you will wander, stilled. {{R-D: Behold, Nandaa, the foul compound, diseased, Impure! Compel thy heart to contemplate What is not fair to view. So steel thyself And concentrate the well-compose'd mind. (19) That ponder where no Threefold Sign *119 is seen. Cast out the baneful bias of conceit. Hath the mind mastered vain imaginings, *120 Then mayst thou go thy ways, calm and serene. (20) *119 Animitta.m, ideals not depending on what is impermanent, or on what makes for sorrow, or on the presence of a persisting soul-entity (Rhys Davids, Yogaavacara's Manual, xxvii., xxviii.). }} Taasa.m attho he.t.thaa vuttanayo eva. The meaning of these [verses] has been explained earlier. === c. #68077 From: connie Date: Wed Feb 7, 2007 10:35 pm Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (19) nichiconn Dear Friends, Abhiruupa-Nandaa, Part 2: Gaathaapariyosaane abhiruupanandaa arahatta.m paapu.ni. Tena vutta.m apadaane- "Nagare bandhumatiyaa, bandhumaa naama khattiyo; tassa ra~n~no ahu.m bhariyaa, ekajjha.m caarayaamaha.m. "Rahogataa nisiiditvaa, eva.m cintesaha.m tadaa; aadaaya gamaniiya~nhi, kusala.m natthi me kata.m. "Mahaabhitaapa.m ka.tuka.m, ghoraruupa.m sudaaru.na.m; niraya.m nuuna gacchaami, ettha me natthi sa.msayo. At the end of the verses, Abhiruupa-Nandaa attained Arahatship. As it is said in the Apadaana: In the town of Bandhumatii, the Khattiya named Bandhumaa [was king]; I was that king's wife and lived together with him. [One day] seated alone, I thought to myself, "Indeed, I have not done any good that I can take with me [to a future life]. "Now I shall go to a hell that is extremely hot, terrible, of frightening appearance, completely pitiless. I have no doubt about that." "Evaaha.m cintayitvaana, paha.msetvaana maanasa.m; raajaana.m upagantvaana, ida.m vacanamabravi.m. "Itthii naama maya.m deva, purisaanugataa sadaa; eka.m me sama.na.m dehi, bhojayissaami khattiya. "Adaasi me mahaaraajaa, sama.na.m bhaavitindriya.m; tassa patta.m gahetvaana, paramannena puurayi.m. "Puurayitvaa paramanna.m, sahassagghanakenaha.m; vatthayugena chaadetvaa, adaasi.m tu.t.thamaanasaa. "Tena kammena sukatena, cetanaapa.nidhiihi ca; jahitvaa maanusa.m deha.m, taavati.msamagacchaha.m. Thus I thought, and having stirred up my mind, I went to the king and said these words to him, "I am a woman who is always surrounded by servants, O king. Give me a recluse, O Khattiya, and I shall feed him." The king gave me an ascetic with developed faculties. I took his bowl and filled it with the most excellent food. Having had [his bowl] filled with the most excellent food, I covered it with a pair of cloths worth a thousand [coins]. I gave [all this] and was pleased in my mind. As a result of that virtuous deed and of my resolve and purpose, when I abandoned my human body, I went to the Taavati.msa realm. "Sahassa.m devaraajuuna.m, mahesittamakaarayi.m; sahassa.m cakkavattiina.m, mahesittamakaarayi.m. "Padesarajja.m vipula.m, ga.nanaato asa"nkhiya.m; naanaavidha.m bahu.m pu~n~na.m, tassa kammaphalaa tato. "Uppalasseva me va.n.naa, abhiruupaa sudassanaa; itthii sabba"ngasampannaa, abhijaataa jutindharaa. I ruled as the chief queen of a thousand deva kings and as the chief queen of a thousand wheel-turning monarches. Then [I was queen of] a large kingdom's region, beyond measuring and varied as the fruition of that deed, that highly meritorious deed. By birth I was a radiant woman with all my limbs perfect, lovely, beautiful, with a lotus complexion. "Pacchime bhavasampatte, ajaayi.m saakiye kule; naariisahassapaamokkhaa, suddhodanasutassaha.m. "Nibbinditvaa agaareha.m, pabbaji.m anagaariya.m; sattami.m ratti.m sampatvaa, catusacca.m apaapu.ni.m. "Ciivarapi.n.dapaata~nca, paccaya~nca senaasana.m; parimetu.m na sakkomi, pi.n.dapaatassida.m phala.m. "Ya.m mayha.m purima.m kamma.m, kusala.m janita.m muni; tuyhatthaaya mahaaviira, parici.n.na.m bahu.m mayaa. "Ekati.mse ito kappe, ya.m daanamadadi.m tadaa; duggati.m naabhijaanaami, pi.n.dapaatassida.m phala.m. I was born in my last existence in a Sakyan family. I was foremost of a thousand women of the son of Suddhodana. I was disenchanted with household life, so I went forth to the homeless state. On the seventh night I arrived at [an understanding of] the four [noble] truths. I am unable to measure the requisites - robes, alms food, seats, and beds - [I have received]. This is the consequence of the alms food [I gave]. That former wholesome action produced by me, O Sage, was for your sake. I have amply attended on you, O Great Hero. In the thirty-one aeons since I gave that gift, I am not aware of [birth in] any realm of misery. This is the consequence of the alms food [I gave]. "Duve gatii pajaanaami, devatta.m atha maanusa.m; a~n~na.m gati.m na jaanaami, pi.n.dapaatassida.m phala.m. "Ucce kule pajaanaami, tayo saale mahaadhane; a~n~na.m kula.m na jaanaami, pi.n.dapaatassida.m phala.m. "Bhavaabhave sa.msaritvaa, sukkamuulena coditaa; amanaapa.m na passaami, somanassakata.m phala.m. I am conscious of two realms - being a deva and being a human being. I have not known any other realms. This is the consequence of the alms food [I gave]. I've been born in exalted families - three of them prosperous and having great wealth. I have not known any other families. This is the consequence of the alms food [I gave]. I have journeyed on in various existences, urged on by that pure basis [of wholesome action]. I have not seen anything unpleasant. That is the consequence of that deed of gladness. "Iddhiisu ca vasii homi, dibbaaya sotadhaatuyaa; cetopariya~naa.nassa, vasii homi mahaamune. "Pubbenivaasa.m jaanaami, dibbacakkhu visodhita.m; sabbaasavaparikkhii.naa, natthi daani punabbhavo. "Atthadhammaniruttiisu, pa.tibhaane tatheva ca; ~naa.na.m mama mahaaviira, uppanna.m tava santike. And I have mastery of the supernormal powers. By means of the divine ear element I have mastery of the knowledge of penetration of mind, O Great Sage. I know my previous lives. My divine eye has been purified. All my taints have been consumed. Now there is no renewed existence. And truly, O Great Hero, in your presence, knowledge has arisen in me of comprehension of meaning, states, and language. "Kilesaa jhaapitaa mayha.m {, bhavaa sabbe samuuhataa; naagiiva bandhana.m chetvaa, viharaami anaasavaa. "Svaagata.m vata me aasi, buddhase.t.thassa santike; tisso vijjaa anuppattaa, kata.m buddhassa saasana.m. "Pa.tisambhidaa catasso, vimokkhaapi ca a.t.thime; cha.labhi~n~naa sacchikataa,} kata.m buddhassa saasanan"ti. My defilements are burnt out, {all [future] births are completely destroyed. Having severed my bonds like an elephant, I live without taints. Welcome indeed was the presence of the Best of Buddhas to me. I have attained the three true knowledges. I have done the Buddha's teaching. The four discriminations and also the eight liberations are mine. I have realized the six direct knowledges.} I have done the Buddha's teaching. arahatta.m patvaa pana saa sayampi udaanavasena taayeva gaathaa abhaasi, idameva cassaa a~n~naabyaakara.na.m ahosiiti; abhiruupanandaatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa ni.t.thitaa; Then having attained Arahatship, she also said these verses herself as her solemn utterance. And here, this was her declaration of perfect knowledge. Here ends the commentary on the verses of Therii Abhiruupa-Nandaa. ============== connie #68078 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Wed Feb 7, 2007 11:00 pm Subject: Re: what should be often contemplated. ken_aitch Hi Phil, ------------ <. . .> Ph: > No problem at all. I am still waiting for that moment in which Bhikkhu Bodhi (in commentarial notes and recorded talks) Nyanaponika Thera (in "Heart of Buddhist Meditation" and "Roots of Good and Evil") or any one of the three Burmese sayadaws I listen to says anything that makes me think "hey, that sounds like Ken H!" It hasn't happened yet. ------------ No problem for me either. I am still waiting for that moment when you want to discuss the Dhamma *as it is found in the Pali Canon and its ancient commentaries.* Please invite BB and the sayadaws too. :-) --------------- Ph: > That doesn't mean that they are all right and you are wrong, just that the focus provided by the teachers/commentators I pay attention to now is clearly quite different from yours. Which is cool. Different strokes for different folks. --------------- OK, but there is only one Dhamma - one `way things are'. It doesn't change for the benefit of folks and their strokes. ---------------------- <. . .> Ph: > p.s always feel free to add comments to anything I post but you'll find that I'm unwilling to (or too lazy to?) get in any debates. ----------------------- Too chicken! :-) No, really, keep going the way you are. I will keep sniping from the shadows. Ken H #68079 From: "Joop" Date: Wed Feb 7, 2007 11:14 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Mystery of Consciousness jwromeijn Dear Herman You are, in a way, right: I'm wasting my time, in trying to combine, in trying to get a 'theory of everything' (TOE) In case somebody else responds: Abhidhamma is not a TOE toe me, although it's an important language to describe processes od seeing things as they really are, but not of all things. You are calling the behavior it creates, 'zombie', I'm calling it 'autistic'. But no reason to leave my buddhistic path, only: without aims, without ideals like arahat or whatever. Till now interaction in DSG works creative, so in that way it's not a waste of time. But the percentage just repeating the same views and hearing (other) same views of other increases. Metta Joop --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > > Hi Joop, > > I agree with you. A system that cannot account for other minds, or in > which another can only be an object, and not a subject, seems like a > great foundation for solipsism. And so it turns out. Add to this an > axiomatic momentariness of all objects, and the possibility of any > shared reality is defined out of existence. > > But in doing so, such a system looses all capacity to account for > fundamental realities like the emotions, and all other acts of bodily > and verbal communication. There is nothing quite so insincere as an > Abhidhammika that communicates. Because there is nothing that we > communicate that is not acquired from, or for the benefit, of another. > > I think you are wasting your time if you are hoping to be able to > combine being a person in a world of persons, and find a way of being > in that world, an ethics, using the Abhidhamma and especially it's > commentaries, as foundation. In denying the possibility of others and > self as subject, the arahat, as ideal being in Buddhism, is exactly a > zombie. > >..... > > Herman > #68080 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Feb 8, 2007 1:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'We are here to learn the dhamma' -- Miss Interpretation says Hi. sarahprocter... Hi Colette, Thanks for mostly sticking to the Dhamma with this one:-) --- colette wrote: > > I'm glad to see you're following many of the threads with others. > > colette: isn't that what Basket Weaving 101 was about? A single > thread is not very applicable as a garment, although the emperor > seems to enjoy New Clothes and so a single thread may be in Chic on > the catwalks, the runways, of todays political dress code. ;-) .... S: wit to match Connie's:-) .... > > >C: Enlightenment may not simply come by viewing the act of perfoming > the > > > ceremonial of "burning the curry". The aroma may be the focus > here, > >>S: We're thinking of a ritual as a way to become > > enlightened, > > colette: and so you seperate "enlightenment" from any and all life? .... S: Quite the contrary. The point I was making was that as soon as we start thinking in terms of rituals or special practices in order to become enlightened, we are forgetting about following the path in 'any and all life' at this moment. .... > > Aren't you trying to put a genie back in a bottle, if enlightnement > is something that only the rich can have or something that is only > applicable in certain situations? > ------------------------------------ ... S: Again, quite the opposite of what I was suggesting. Enlightenment only occurs when the path has been followed. The path can only be followed at this moment, regardless of the situation. There are always dhammas appearing which can be known. .... <..> > > S: There is always an object of citta (consciousness). Sunyata or > anatta > > is the nature of all currently arising dhammas - no need to apply, > > otherwise we're back stuck with Self. > > colette: Zoiks, you've taken me back thousands of years here. Aren't > we INTENTIONALLY realizing that WE ARE EVERYTHING, that our essence > is EXACTLY THE SAME AS THE ESSENCE OF THAT WHICH WE DO? ... S: As soon as there is 'we intentionally' doing anything, there's no understanding, no path. There is no 'WE', no 'essence', no 'WE DO'. There are bare phenomena - namas and rupas - rolling on. That's all! .... > >S: There is always an object of citta (consciousness). > > colette: and that object is THE SELF THE SELF OF THE INDIVIDUAL? .... S: That object is a reality or a concept. If it's a reality, it's a nama or a rupa. Examples of namas are 'seeing', 'hearing', attachment and aversion. Examples of rupas are visible object, sound, hardness and heat. If the object of consciousness is a concept, it can be any idea that comes to mind including 'The self anything'. They may be ideas based on truths or ideas based on nonsense. They are still just ideas, not realities. [Btw, you may find it helpful to print out the simple Pali glossary that's in the DSG files to have handy. Also, you mentioned to Connie about your difficulty reading materials etc. I may be able to send you or ask a friend to send you a hard copy of 'Abhidhamma in D.Life' by Nina and also one or two c.d.s in mp3 format. If you're interested, pls send me a postal address off-list). .... > If we look, and cosciously recognize that the things we do ARE EMPTY > then we can better view, consciously recognize, the EMPTINESS of our > daily lives as THE MEANS TO UNDERSTAND SVABHAVA. .... S: In the Theravada tradition, sabhava refers to the characteristic of a nama or a rupa. We need to clearly understand what namas and rupas are, distinct from concepts or things in order to understand the anatta-ness and sabhava of them. At the moment you're combining many different ideas and teachings. Why not really give the Theravada teachings from the Pali canon a go, Colette? I think you'd find it most worthwhile. ..... > colette: way too much to deal with right now. As quickly as possible > we can go to Fa-hsiang or Yogacara as being definitions of > Consciousness Only or we can go to Vijnanavada (Consciousness > Affirming/Doctrine of Consciousness). We'll have to see how I CHOOSE > TO APPLY IT TO THE SENSE, FEELING, I GET FROM YOU AND YOUR SPEACH > before I can translate that for ya. .... S: Let's leave this and stick to the Pali canon teachings. Definitely not consciousness only. Metta, Sarah ===== #68081 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Feb 8, 2007 1:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: B.Bodhi article (was: Arahants and compassion) sarahprocter... Hi Herman, --- Herman Hofman wrote: > > S: I'm not sure from your example, but there are other examples of > more > > recently not agreeing with ancient commentary notes on suttas which > he'd > > previously agreed with as a result of what you'd call a less > 'orthodox' > > view. The Luminous sutta would be one example, but I don't really have > any > > interest in getting into 1988BB and 2006BB. > >H: No, of course not, because you just want to have confidence, right? ... S: Because I'd see it as an academic sort of point and of no value when it comes to developing wisdom or yes, confidence in what the Buddha taught. I don't see it as a question of me (or anyone else) *just wanting' to have confidence. Confidence in the teachings develops with an appreciation or understanding of them. Of course, only the sotapanna has unshakeable confidence under any circumstances. These lines were quoted by Connie and Phil recently and caught my attention: "When one can't pin down as a truth or reality what should & shouldn't be done, one dwells bewildered & unprotected. One cannot righteously refer to oneself as a contemplative." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.061.than.html S: I think it's true! When we don't understand what truth or reality is, we live troubled and disturbed, always searching for something round the corner. When there is an appreciation (even a beginning level) or what is true or real, one lives contented with as little or much wisdom has been accumulated to date. Confidence grows! Metta, Sarah ======= #68082 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Feb 8, 2007 1:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Theriigaathaa - Sisters (16) sarahprocter... Dear Connie, Scott & all, I think this one is very clear too: --- connie wrote: > Having heard the Teacher teach the discourse on the Doctrine beginning > > "There are four young creatures, O king, that are not to be despised, > etc" > to King Pasenadi Kosala, she obtained faith and stood firm in virtuous > conduct and the refuges. But, although she wanted to go forth, she > waited > a long time, saying, "I will look after my grandmother." Afterwards, her > > grandmother died. Together with the king, she went to the lodgings [of > the > bhikkhus] and had valuable rugs and clothing taken. They ordered that > they > be given to the Order. She heard the Doctrine in the Teacher's presence, > > and being established in the fruition state of a Non-Returner, asked to > go > forth. .... S: She had become a sotapanna but continued in her household life until this time when she heard the Buddha again and became an anagami with no more attachment to sensuous objects. No mention of mundane jhanas, physical seclusion or anything other than hearing the teachings as condition for insight to develop. ... The Teacher, seeing her mature knowledge, spoke this verse: > > > 16. "Sukha.m tva.m vu.d.dhike sehi, katvaa co.lena paarutaa; > upasanto hi te raago, siitibhuutaasi nibbutaa"ti.- > > 16. Lie down happily, old lady, clad in the garment that you have made, > > for your desire is stilled. You have become cool, quenched. > <...>> At the end of the verse she attained Arahatship together with the > [four] > discriminations, and as her solemn utterance, she spoke this verse. This > > was her declaration of perfect knowledge. She went forth immediately. <...> ..... S: Becoming an arahant with the 4 discriminations almost immediately after becoming an anagami due to her great accumulated wisdom. Of course she had to ordain immediately. Powerful accumulations for those at the time of the Buddha. Ordinary lifestyles, extraordinary wisdom! Metta, Sarah ======= #68083 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Thu Feb 8, 2007 1:21 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Not-Self and "Rebirth" dacostacharles Hi Howard, New feelings arise because old feelings are reborn as them. This rebirth (i.e., not obtaining nirvana) is really the trigger (combined with the object) of new feelings. Isn't "hate" just hate, when you don't consider the object of hate. Isn't "jealousy" just jealousy, when you don't consider the object of jealousy. . These feelings arise again and again just under different circumstances (i.e., births). Don't memories arise again and again, oh yes, sometimes with a new twist but you still "recognize" them as the same memory. It could also be argued that you have the wrong definition of rebirth. Rebirth in the Buddhist sense has more to do with the cause of an event arising. It does not mean the exact same thing "becomes" again. It means that because of one existence there is another, and another forming a chain of existences until nirvana is reached. For example, because there was the Fist (I) Dahlia Lama and the fact that he did not reach nirvana, there became a number (II), and so on to the (XIV) today. Each was and is a different individual (different Aggregates), but together, they represent a long line of rebirths - like the flame of one candle, just before the point of its ending, being use to light another candle. In this definition of rebirth, you still allow for the three characteristics of existence. I think you forgot that rebirths are also subject to change. Charles DaCosta _____ From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of upasaka@... Sent: 2. februar 2007 16:17 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] Not-Self and "Rebirth" Hi, Charles - In a message dated 2/2/07 6:55:20 AM Eastern Standard Time, dacostas@POST10. TELE.DK writes: > Hi Howard, > > Feeling are reborn, .... > > Yours truly, > > Charles DaCosta > ==================== Nope, not in my opinion. New feelings arise. The old feelings are gone. With metta, Howard <...> #68084 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Thu Feb 8, 2007 1:24 am Subject: RE: [dsg] on art continued - indian poster dacostacharles Hi Leo, That would depend on what message the artist was trying to get across. Charles DaCosta _____ From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Leo Sent: 6. februar 2007 07:01 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] on art continued - indian poster Hi I have Indian poster of Buddha under the tree and some mountains with a snow on the back. At the same time, I remember, that some monks were affraid to go to mountains to meditate. Looks like there were some spirits living there. Buddha said it is o.k. to go there. At the same time, since Buddha said that, it had probably many trees, since it was recommended to meditate under the tree. So based on that, I can make a decision, that background of my poster should have mountains with trees, not snow. How do you look at that? Leo #68085 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Feb 8, 2007 2:01 am Subject: pa~n~natti and cohesion nilovg Dear Joel, ------- J: i now understand that i have been chunking realities and concepts together, ------- N: We tend to do this all the time, it is very common. But it helps to know the difference between realities and concepts. Seeing is a citta, a paramattha dhamma, and it sees colour or visible object which is ruupa, another paramattha dhamma. After the seeing we think of a person or a table, and then the citta which thinks has a concept as object. We are usually forgetful of cittas which see because we are so taken in by what is seen and by the concepts we form up on account of seeing. ---------- J: and this has helped to stress that citta really only experiences one arumana at a time, and then immediately it falls away and another appears. -------- N: Yes, each citta experiences only one object at a time. Seeing only experiences what appears through the eyes, it cannot experience a person at the same time. But it seems to us that we can see and think all at the same time. Cittas arise and fall away extremely rapidly. It is important to realize when we are deluding ourselves. ------ J: it also reminds me that i need to be patient and allow the realities to emerge and the elements (cetasikas) to develop... to have more refined and precise understanding from moment to moment of the invididual cittas that are zipping by. ------- N: You took that rightly, that we have to be patient. It is impossible to try to catch the different cittas that succeed one another. Intellectual understanding can develop and this can condition very gradually awareness of the dhamma that appears now. It is understanding, pa~n~naa, that understands, not a self, but it is difficult to eliminate the idea of 'I try to understand'. Nina. #68086 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Feb 7, 2007 10:25 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Not-Self and "Rebirth" upasaka_howard Hi, Charles - In a message dated 2/8/07 4:54:39 AM Eastern Standard Time, dacostas@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > New feelings arise because old feelings are reborn as them. This rebirth > (i.e., not obtaining nirvana) is really the trigger (combined with the > object) of new feelings. --------------------------------------------- Howard: Your first sentence is not how I understand the Dhamma, but your second sentence seems to be saying you didn't mean the first literally. I do not understand the Buddha to have taught that anything is literally reborn or continues "in anything" (in the same or different form or guise). I understand him to have taught that phenomena do not remain but do serve as conditions for the arising of future phenomena that would not have arisen without them, and, conversely, that no phenomena arise indepndently of conditions. And this latter (converse) aspect is very important, for it says that not only do phenomena not remain, but even during their brief appearance, they are nothing in-and-of-themselves. The Dhamma, as I understand it, is not a teaching of continued substance and changing form, nor of nihilism, but of emptiness - the middle way. ----------------------------------------------------- > > > Isn't "hate" just hate, when you don't consider the object of hate. Isn't > "jealousy" just jealousy, when you don't consider the object of jealousy. . > These feelings arise again and again just under different circumstances > (i.e., births). --------------------------------------------------- Howard: You cannot step into the same stream twice. Phenomena fall into categories, but no two instances of hate or anything else are identical. The world is ever fresh. (However, there is no self-existent entity that ever arises anywhere anytime.) --------------------------------------------------- > > Don't memories arise again and again, oh yes, sometimes with a new twist but > you still "recognize" them as the same memory. ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Every memory is new, even as every photocopy is new, though all conditioned by the original. ----------------------------------------------------- > > It could also be argued that you have the wrong definition of rebirth. > Rebirth in the Buddhist sense has more to do with the cause of an event > arising. It does not mean the exact same thing "becomes" again. It means > that because of one existence there is another, and another forming a chain > of existences until nirvana is reached. ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Now you are speaking clear Dhamma. 'Rebirth' is a loaded and dangerous word. It lends itself to misleading slogans such as one thing being reborn as another, Remember Sati's error? Remember how he felt that it is this self-same consciousness that is reborn? ------------------------------------------------------- > > For example, because there was the Fist (I) Dahlia Lama and the fact that he > did not reach nirvana, there became a number (II), and so on to the (XIV) > today. Each was and is a different individual (different Aggregates), but > together, they represent a long line of rebirths - like the flame of one > candle, just before the point of its ending, being use to light another > candle. In this definition of rebirth, you still allow for the three > characteristics of existence. I think you forgot that rebirths are also > subject to change. ------------------------------------------------- Howard: No, I didn't forget anything. What I didn''t do was realize that you were using language in a figurative way. ---------------------------------------------- > > Charles DaCosta > > _____ > > From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of upasaka@... > Sent: 2. februar 2007 16:17 > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [dsg] Not-Self and "Rebirth" > > Hi, Charles - > > In a message dated 2/2/07 6:55:20 AM Eastern Standard Time, > dacostas@POST10. TELE.DK writes: > > >Hi Howard, > > > >Feeling are reborn, .... > > > >Yours truly, > > > >Charles DaCosta > > > ==================== > Nope, not in my opinion. New feelings arise. The old feelings are > gone. > > With metta, > Howard > ============================= With metta, Howard #68087 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Thu Feb 8, 2007 2:10 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Identifying Views. dacostacharles Hi Colette, Now I am laughing, but I am home so it is ok. <....> OK, now I am starting to focus again (boy, you proved I am no arhat). Oh well, one less thing to justify my feeble existence. You asked, "does 'precondition' = prerequisite?" No. 16 = 6+10, 4X4, 2 to some power, the square root of some number, ... The only prerequisite in this case is "countables;" even unknowns that are countables can be accepted as a precondition but not necessarily as a prerequisite. To qualify Karma's existence, you must open the 6-sense gates and perceive it, because it is here and now as the effects of various thoughts and acts. To see karma in the future, you have to train by seeing it in the past and the present. If you only consider it as in the future then your view of KARMA may be mislabelled. Why id I read this again, now I am laughing again. Charles DaCosta _____ From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of colette Sent: 3. februar 2007 19:03 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Re: Identifying Views. A Very Good Morning to you Charles DaCosta, I only read part of the first "my answer" and went into joyous laughter. In the public library that's not too considerate. However, allow me to relate. <....> #68088 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Thu Feb 8, 2007 4:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] elements of experience egberdina Hi Sarah, > > Let's do it! > .... > S: Let's start with the dhammas appearing now. What's real as we speak, > Herman? Well, if there is a question asking what is real, then that is the reality of the moment. And that the reality of the present moment is a question, and not a given answer, cannot be stressed enough. Without the question "what is there", what is there really? > > I am sorry, but that is not right. > ..... > S: I was thinking of the comments in the first post of your return, for a > start. You wrote: "Not much news from my side. I'm still not a Buddhist, > and am becoming more convinced then ever that the Third Noble Truth is > more a noble belief or hope than a truth. On the other hand, the First and > Second Noble Truths remain unshakeably rock-solid descriptions of the way > things are, so perhaps I'm half a Buddhist. Perhaps it would be more > accurate to say that half of Buddhism is verifiably precise and accurate." > .... > S: When you referred to nibbana as a 'noble belief or hope', I took it as > indicating a scepticism or lack of interest in what the Buddha taught in > this regard. Apologies if I misunderstood you. > .... I tend to assume that discussions are in good faith. I am not interested in being apologised to or needing to apologise. (As an aside, I'm quite bored with emotional manipulation that masquerades as a requirement for sila. I am certainly not talking about you here, but we definitely have skilled practitioners amongst us :-)) I was suggesting that Nibbana cannot be experienced. It must always be inferred, after the fact. I will happily assert that not even the Buddha can experience Nibbana. Which means that the truth of the end of suffering is not really a truth at all. Just out of interest, do you reckon the Buddha experienced paranibbana? As in, it happened to him? > > > >>S: If so, let's drop it because it's an unnecessary distraction to > > > the task in hand. > > > >H: You're giving the game away here, Sarah, you are not interested in > > Nibbana. Nibbana is pivotal to Buddhism. I am flabbergasted that you > > describe it as an unnecessary distraction. > .... > S: Now it's your turn to misunderstand. I said: 'if so....'. However, I do > think that it's a lot more useful to get on with the ABC - the study of > presently appearing namas and rupas. So what namas and rupas are appearing > now as we speak? If there is mindfulness, then what is happening is what is happening, accompanied by the awareness that it is happening. And all mindfulness is mindfulness of concepts. Kind Regards Herman #68089 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Feb 8, 2007 1:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] elements of experience upasaka_howard Hi, Herman (and Sarah) - In a message dated 2/8/07 7:49:57 AM Eastern Standard Time, hhofmeister@g mail.com writes: > I was suggesting that Nibbana cannot be experienced. It must always be > inferred, after the fact. I will happily assert that not even the > Buddha can experience Nibbana. Which means that the truth of the end > of suffering is not really a truth at all. --------------------------------------- Howard: I don't understand *why* you suggest that. Is it just a scepticism? I can understand why you might consider than nibbana may not be experienced in the same dualistic mode that we typically experience things. In fact, I think that is surely so. But why do you presume it is not experienced in any way? And when you assert that "the truth of the end of suffering is not really a truth at all" are you asserting that there is no end to suffering? If yes, why do you believe so? ----------------------------------------- Just out of interest, do> > you reckon the Buddha experienced paranibbana? As in, it happened to > him? > > >> > >>>S: If so, let's drop it because it's an unnecessary distraction to > >>>the task in hand. > >> > >>H: You're giving the game away here, Sarah, you are not interested in > >>Nibbana. Nibbana is pivotal to Buddhism. I am flabbergasted that you > >>describe it as an unnecessary distraction. > >.... > >S: Now it's your turn to misunderstand. I said: 'if so....'. However, I do > >think that it's a lot more useful to get on with the ABC - the study of > >presently appearing namas and rupas. So what namas and rupas are appearing > >now as we speak? > > If there is mindfulness, then what is happening is what is happening, > accompanied by the awareness that it is happening. And all mindfulness > is mindfulness of concepts. > ------------------------------------------ Howard: I view sati as something other than a general paying attention to things. I think it is a very specific monitoring operation, namely that which guards "staying present", by which I mean not getting lost in thought or stupor. That is why the word is 'sati', which means "recollection". When one gets lost in thought or stupor it is a kind of forgetting. Aside from that, though, I am perplexed as to why you never speak of knowing anything but concepts. Are you assuming that there are no sights, sounds, tastes, smells, tactile sensations, emotions, and so on? =========================== With metta, Howard #68090 From: connie Date: Thu Feb 8, 2007 7:55 am Subject: Theragatha (Was: Re: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (17) nichiconn hi again, Joop - to go back to << How about Ananda alone? >> and the last closing: < #1036 of Hellmuth Hecker and Sister Khema " Today alone I meditate Like a bird gone to its nest." > i'm thinking more likely some heights of solitude than depths of anguish over the loss of the better half of the holy life, tho i'm not saying that well, sorry... also idle thinking. sorry for being just five kinds of aggrevating ;) confectionately, c. ps. how about that grief faculty? #68091 From: connie Date: Thu Feb 8, 2007 8:39 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (11) - crookedness nichiconn ps, Sarah, All, Sarah: ... 2. 'freedom from...three crooked things.....my crookback'd lord' (Pruitt: well released...three crooked things...my crooked husband'. A good example of it being the cittas (rather than any p.c./non p.c. comments) that count perhaps:-) <... connie: i'll skip to the last little paragraph of << Disclosure 318: ... Bodily crookedness is a footing for view. Bodily fault (dosa) is a footing for hate (dosa). Bodily coloration (?) is a footing for greed. >> connie ...shoulda had a V-8. #68092 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Feb 8, 2007 11:29 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily lIfe, Ch 23, no 9 nilovg Dear friends, At the attainment of enlightenment the magga-citta (lokuttara kusala citta) directly experiences nibbåna. When the magga-citta has fallen away, it is succeeded immediately by the phala-citta (lokuttara vipåkacitta) which experiences the same object. When one performs kåmåvacara kusala kamma (kusala kamma of the sensuous plane of consciousness) the vipåka does not follow immediately. Even if the vipåka were to arise soon after the kamma, it could never arise in the same process of citta. When one attains rúpa-jhåna or arúpa- jhåna, the vipåkacitta, if it arises, only arises in a next life. It is different with the magga-citta, this has to be followed immediately, in the same process of citta, by the phala-cittas, which are two or three moments of citta, depending on the individual. When someone attains enlightenment of the stage of the sotåpanna, the magga-citta and the phala-cittas of the sotåpanna arise. The magga- citta of the sotåpanna eradicates the defilements which are to be eradicated at that stage, and this is once and for all. Thus, the magga-citta of the sotåpanna can arise only once in the cycle of birth and death. The phala-citta can arise again in other processes of citta if enlightenment has been attained with lokuttara jhånacitta. Someone who has developed jhåna and acquired ``mastery'' in jhåna (Vis. IV, 131) and also develops insight can attain enlightenment with lokuttara jhånacitta, lokuttara citta accompanied by jhånafactors of one of the stages of jhåna. It is extremely difficult to acquire ``mastery'' in jhåna; one should be able, for example, to determine when one enters jhåna and when one emerges from jhåna. Only if mastery has been acquired, jhåna can be a ``base'' for insight, that is, an object of mindfulness in vipassanå. In that way the clinging to a self who attains jhåna can be eliminated. Those who attain enlightenment have different accumulations and according to one's accumulations the lokuttara jhånacittas are accompanied by jhåna- factors of different stages of jhåna. The phala-citta which is accompanied by jhåna-factors can arise many times again, experiencing nibbåna [1]. --------- [1]This attainment is called phala samåpatti, attainment of fruition. ******* Nina. #68093 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Feb 8, 2007 11:33 am Subject: Letters on Vipassana 7, no 1. nilovg Dear friends, the Hague, May 20, 1991 Dear Sarah, Thank you for the tapes which you made in Bangkok when you and Jonothan were visiting Khun Sujin. The discussions were in various surroundings: in the Safari Park, in the car, in a restaurant with loud background music, in a Park with a Japanese garden and in Khun Sujin's house. The scenery changes all the time but there are only nåma and rúpa: visible object and seeing, sound and hearing and all the other realities. They appear but we need reminders so that we are not forgetful of what appears all the time. In your letter you wrote that you had carefully planned Dhamma discussions in the afternoon during the three days you were in Bangkok, but that things turned out quite differently from what you expected. Khun Sujin was ill one of these days and thus she could not speak much. However, you had a good discussion with her sister and with Khun Duangduen. We make beautiful plans but we never know what will happen, because whatever happens is conditioned. Your letter was a good reminder of this truth. I liked Khun Sujin's reminder: "Everyday life is a test for the development of understanding." We are in different circumstances, some pleasant, some unpleasant, but we should not forget that there are realities appearing through the six doors, wherever we are. You spoke about the stress of everyday life, when you are in the situation of your work. You find it difficult to remember that there are only nåma and rúpa, and this is a problem we all have. When we are rushing around to finish our tasks such as cleaning the house or cooking, we believe that we need more leisure time, more time for reading suttas. But, as Jonothan remarked, do we really use our free time for Dhamma, or do we take up other activities, such as playing with the computer, solving problems with it? Different cittas motivate our activities, some are kusala but many more are akusala. They arise because of conditions, and instead of trying to exert control over them we should develop understanding of them. I liked Khun Sujin's answer that we should not worry, that worry is akusala and that we should develop understanding at ease. I shall quote her words: "... Develop at ease, don't rush. You should not want a result soon. One should understand one's own understanding. When there is a moment of not understanding it cannot be changed into a moment of understanding. When there is no understanding of visible object yet one can begin to develop understanding of it." ******** Nina. #68094 From: "colette" Date: Thu Feb 8, 2007 9:04 am Subject: Re: Toodles! ksheri3 Good Morning connie, Group, Zoiks, did I have the best of meditations the last few days. In the few minutes I have available let me go with the reply to connie, oh I wish I could get more time to make a full reply to this one since it made me laugh strongly and just added to the joy I feel today about being able to work with such scholars around the world in the practice of yogacara <....> --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connie wrote: > colette: "tilakkhana" and the "four perversions" damn, some more > research. What the heck are they? but you say "...might rule." Well, > in that case, whatever those two things happen to be I've got a > hierarchy, and I've got a position which I can observe and apply > different techniques, theories, etc., to. I'll get back to ya after a > little meditation on that one. > > connie: there's a saying that you can boil down the buddha's teaching to > nine profitable and nine unprofitable side terms. colette: check my past history and you'll find that I do enjoy "boiling blood". People in many groups, a few yrs. ago, would question me about this practice which I couldn't give them much of an answer to since we get into so many different disciplines. You, connie, seem to bring out DUALITY here. I agree that there is a tendency, within this world, for individuals to raise this POTENTIAL PROBLEM but that is ONLY BECAUSE OF, DEPENDENT ON, A RESULT OF THEIR CLINGING, etc., the programming that they received while still a blank hard drive. "Life's what you make it" composer unknown, "You gotta let it, you gotta let it go. So keep on playin those mind games..." J.Lennon. the four perversions > stand opposite the four foundations of mindfulness. as for the other > three, they are the universal sisterhood (namely, anicca, anatta & dukkha) > of all conditioned "things". colette: does the word "condition" equal the word "programming" or "programmed"? or is it a process, a step by step, graduated proceedure? Graduated, hmmm, graduated cylanders, no? > > > > That would be the status quo, > > too, i believe. > > > colette: oooh, so it's a resemblence, a mirror image of the status > quo. Now I've got even more info, and a better picture. > > connie: status quo - just the way things occur according to the natural > orders, colette: as a known practioner, a "Celebrant", I feel that I should warn you about statements like that since now I'm forced to ask: Natural Orders, what, what is "Natural" and how does it create "un- natural" etc, What are these things called "orders"? <....> > connie: is the library the only place you have computer access? could > you listen to mp3 recordings or read stuff off a cd if I sent them to some > street address or po box? if i were nicer i'd offer some of the books i > haven't given away yet, but alas! i'm not that kind, colette: YES, only the library. No capabilities other than the library. I am a pauper living in a freezing basement that ungreatful children let me rent. tooxdles, colette > c. > #68095 From: "Joop" Date: Thu Feb 8, 2007 2:14 pm Subject: Theragatha (Was: Re: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (17) jwromeijn Hallo Connie This time the readability-index was lower. "i'm thinking more likely"; does that mean: "I think to prefer"? "some heights of solitude than depths of anguish": is that a dichotomy? "over the loss of the better half of the holy life": which two halves does 'holy life' has? "tho i'm not saying that": "tho" must mean "although"; and what are you (not) saying? Words that do not occur in my english-dutch dictionary: aggrevating & confectionately And "grief faculty"; do you prefer that word above "mourning", I don't: 'grief' is an emotion (not a faculty, to me), to 'mourn' is a process. My final question: Ananda is still so human in the verses I quoted, do you agree he was at that moment not yet an arahat? (Perhaps 'being human' is a faculty?) Joop --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connie wrote: > > hi again, Joop - > > to go back to << How about Ananda alone? >> and the last closing: < > #1036 of Hellmuth Hecker and Sister Khema > " Today alone I meditate > Like a bird gone to its nest." > > #68096 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Thu Feb 8, 2007 2:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] elements of experience egberdina Hi Howard, > > I was suggesting that Nibbana cannot be experienced. It must always be > > inferred, after the fact. I will happily assert that not even the > > Buddha can experience Nibbana. Which means that the truth of the end > > of suffering is not really a truth at all. > --------------------------------------- > Howard: > I don't understand *why* you suggest that. Is it just a scepticism? I > can understand why you might consider than nibbana may not be experienced in > the same dualistic mode that we typically experience things. In fact, I think > that is surely so. But why do you presume it is not experienced in any way? I have never had experience that wasn't experience of something. And something is something by virtue of having this or that characteristic(s). I experience this or that, which is shorthand for this or that characteristic. Nibbana is without characteristic, it is plain undifferentiated being. The moment it were to become an object of consciousness (not that it can) it has an appearance, a feature for consciousness to grasp. And this would be a complete negation of what it is to just be, because when an object is experienced, it no longer just is, it is now this or that. It becomes relative to consciousness. You speak of the dualistic mode of experience. And I know various shades of that mode of experience. So I am with you there. But I think there is a hint of a suggestion in what you write that there is the possibility for a non-dual mode of consciousness. Such a state would imply that there is no differentiation between consciousness and it's object. And while such a state could well be possible, it could never be known. Because all knowing is a knowing of something, not just a knowing. But I could be wrong, and you may not be suggesting non-dual consciousness :-) And > when you assert that "the truth of the end of suffering is not really a truth > at all" are you asserting that there is no end to suffering? If yes, why do > you believe so? When I say that the truth of the end of suffering is not really a truth, I mean that the end of suffering cannot be known. Because all knowing is a knowing of something, and all somethings have the characteristic of dukkha. Certainly, there may be an end to consciousness, and therefore dukkha, but if there is such an ending, then it is not known to be so. Truth is in the domain of knowing, and if a truth cannot be known, it isn't really a truth, is it? > > If there is mindfulness, then what is happening is what is happening, > > accompanied by the awareness that it is happening. And all mindfulness > > is mindfulness of concepts. > > > ------------------------------------------ > Howard: > I view sati as something other than a general paying attention to > things. I think it is a very specific monitoring operation, namely that which > guards "staying present", by which I mean not getting lost in thought or stupor. > That is why the word is 'sati', which means "recollection". When one gets lost > in thought or stupor it is a kind of forgetting. I think this is good. But it also affirms at least a dual nature of consciousness. Sati and the object of sati do not co-incide. When one gets lost in thought, there is no knowing of that fact. This may well be a non-dual state, but it isn't known as happening. It is only when sati returns, that there is the realisation that one was lost. > Aside from that, though, I am perplexed as to why you never speak of > knowing anything but concepts. Are you assuming that there are no sights, > sounds, tastes, smells, tactile sensations, emotions, and so on? > =========================== Sights, sounds etc do not exist in general. Only specific things exist. There is this visual object, and that sound, but there is not hearing or seeing in general. One can think about seeing or hearing in general, and that is how seeing and hearing are also just concepts. And the reality of specific, existing things, is that they are not known in isolation. There is no experience of individual colour or sound elements making a composite whole, there is experience of wholes. (One may well conduct a mental analysis of how this whole must have arisen, and make various deductions as to causation. But that analysis is conducted on material that is no longer there. Also, the reality is that while attending to this, one is oblivious to everything else that is happening :-)) I hope this clarifies. Kind Regards Herman #68097 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Thu Feb 8, 2007 3:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Some Idle Thoughts on Nothing egberdina Hi Scott, On 07/02/07, Scott Duncan wrote: > Hi Herman, > > H: "The point is that there are only concepts. Denying concepts of > mum's, meatloafs etc yet affirming concepts of paramattha dhammas is > not exactly a profound activity, but certainly profoundly disturbing :-)" > > Well, this is a shocking development, and no mistake. What do you > mean 'there are only concepts'? Is this how you actually see it, that > all is conceptual? Please elaborate on this, if you would. Yes, that's how I see it. I don't quite know how to elaborate, but I'll give it a shot. When I talk to Mum on the phone, that is the experience. When I hear a voice and feel the telephone handpiece against my head, that is the experience. When I see a tree, I see a tree, and when I see colour, I see colour. I never experience paramattha dhammas, one at a time. Do you? > > H: "As I said above, ignorance of constant replacing one concept with > another is hardly insightful activity. If the present moment is going > to be known as it is, as in there is mindfulness of writing to Scott, > then any flight into non-association, or explanations, as in eye-sense > is seeing colours, should also be mindfully known, as in there is > mindfulness of not thinking, or there is mindfulness of explaining. > > "Mindfulness of meatloaf should be known as it is." > > Hmmm. I'd better wait until you clarify your position on 'there are > only concepts' before responding to the above. While I wait, I'll set > out the following tentative teasers: > I'm happy to answer, but I see that you have adopted a certain view of reality in which there are concepts of realities, and real realities. I don't buy that view at all, and I would certainly like to ask you why you have (bought into that). Would it make things clearer for you if I said there are percepts and concepts, which would allow for differentiation between being/acting in the world, and thinking about being/acting in the world. Even so, both percepts and concepts are what it means to be real. > 1) Is 'ignorance' conceptual or a reality? Ignorance is relative to knowing. And all knowing is a knowing of something. So, ignorance in general is meaningless. Ignorance of something, certainly, is real enough. All lacks are real, they define our lives. > > 2) Is the knowing of 'known as it is' conceptual or a reality? When I see a dog dribbling over the now empty plate that minutes ago had a lovely meatloaf on it, that is what I see. That is the experience. That is what I know. That is what it means to be real. And when I turn around in disgust, and think about what I have just seen, that is real too. > > 3) Is 'mindfulness' conceptual or a reality? Mindfulness is a reality, and a concept when thought about. > > 4) 'Writing to Scott' is conceptual, can mindfulness have concept as > object? > Can I be mindful of writing to Scott? Why, certainly. I am right now mindful of writing to Scott. > 5) Is 'eye-sense' conceptual or a reality? Eye-sense is not experienced, it is thought about. It is something that "must be there" in certain beliefs about the world. > > 6) 'Seeing colours' is naama, is naama conceptual or a reality? > Nama is a category, it is something in general. Things in general do not exist other than as concepts. Seeing this colour is real. Thinking about seeing this colour is real. Thinking about seeing in general, or thinking in general is real. > 7) Is visible object conceptual or a reality? > This visible object is real. A visible object, or any visible object, or all visible objects, are objects in general, which are objects of thought. > > H: "...While there is mindfulness of the freedom to do anything that > comes to mind, there is mindfulness of choosing to go and do some > work, and mindfulness of the resistance to that choice." > > Ah, yes, this I totally comprehend. I happen to have some dishes that > I do not wish to do but... > It's been a while. I hope that you got around to those dishes :-) Kind Regards Herman #68098 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Feb 8, 2007 10:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Theragatha (Was: Re: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (17) upasaka_howard Hi, Joop (and Connie) - In a message dated 2/8/07 5:26:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, jwromeijn@... writes: > Words that do not occur in my english-dutch dictionary: > aggrevating &confectionately > ==================== I really liked Connie's neologism of 'confectionately'. :-) It seems to be a mix of the words 'confection', meaning a very sweet food or dessert or cake, and 'affectionately', and, so, 'confectionately' would be a very sweetly loving adverb!! :-) With metta (how sweet it is!), Howard #68099 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Feb 8, 2007 10:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] elements of experience upasaka_howard Hi, Herman - In a message dated 2/8/07 5:47:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, hhofmeister@... writes: > > Aside from that, though, I am perplexed as to why you never speak of > >knowing anything but concepts. Are you assuming that there are no sights, > >sounds, tastes, smells, tactile sensations, emotions, and so on? > >=========================== > > Sights, sounds etc do not exist in general. Only specific things > exist. There is this visual object, and that sound, but there is not > hearing or seeing in general. > -------------------------------------------- Howard: Of course! That why I said "sights, sounds, tastes, smells, tactile sensations, emotions" all in the plural. Sight is concept. Sights are not. Seeing is a concept. A specific seeing is not. ------------------------------------------- One can think about seeing or hearing in> > general, and that is how seeing and hearing are also just concepts. ------------------------------------------- Howard: I agree. -------------------------------------------- > And the reality of specific, existing things, is that they are not > known in isolation. There is no experience of individual colour or > sound elements making a composite whole, there is experience of > wholes. > ------------------------------------------- Howard: Here you lose me with the first of these two sentences. I consider a sight or a sound as whatever the entire visual or auditory content of conscious is at a given time. It does have structure, but that is only discovered by means of mental operations other than just consciousness, which is merelty the experiential presence of the content. ======================= With metta, Howard #68100 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Feb 8, 2007 11:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Some Idle Thoughts on Nothing upasaka_howard Hi, Herman (and Scott) - In a message dated 2/8/07 6:25:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, hhofmeister@... writes: > When I see a tree, I see a > tree, and when I see colour, I see colour. I never experience > paramattha dhammas, one at a time. ==================== When you "see a tree", IMO you do not see a tree. You conceive a tree. What you see is a sight, a multi-shaded visual panorama within which cognitive processing carves out a pattern identified as "a tree". With metta, Howard #68101 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Thu Feb 8, 2007 6:08 pm Subject: Re: Are all the bad things that happen to us results of our deeds? ken_aitch Hi anonymous Connie, Your cover is blown. :-) Just to recap: Howard referred to the practical nature of a sutta you were discussing. I think he saw something "to be done." I suggested that the only `practical doing' was (ultimately) right understanding of the presently arisen paramattha dhamma. Now you are putting your oar in the water: ----------- C: > If nothing else, there's always the practicality of the 'appeal to authority'. ------------ I think your point is that we should read on and see what the sutta has to say about it. ----------------- C: > I can't say I know just "what should and shouldn't be done", but I'd be inclined to look for any 'practical application' in the following part of the sutta: ------------------ I am not disagreeing with anything you say, and I don't want to be too picky, but I think you might have missed out a step. The sutta read: "<. . .> there is no desire, no effort [at the thought], 'This should be done. This shouldn't be done.' "When one can't pin down as a truth or reality what should & shouldn't be done, one dwells bewildered &unprotected. One cannot righteously refer to oneself as a contemplative. This was my first righteous refutation of those priests &contemplative who hold to such teachings, such views."(end quote) So the test of a contemplative is not so much, "Do I know what should and should not be done?" It is more, "Can I pin down as a truth or reality what should and should not be done?" There is a big difference. People of all philosophical persuasions can know what should and should not be done, but how many can pin it down as a truth or a reality? You then quoted the next part of the sutta, which spelt out the realities and the truths to which things can be `pinned down.' (I notice they were given in the wrong order, which is a bit disconcerting to the pedants among us. But I suppose that might be a matter of translation. (?)) They were the elements (the namas and rupas of the five khandhas) and the four ariyan truths. --------- << ...this Dhamma taught by me is unrefuted, undefiled, blameless, not faulted by knowledgeable priests & contemplatives. And which Dhamma taught by me is unrefuted, undefiled, blameless, not faulted by knowledgeable priests & contemplatives? 'There are these six properties' is a Dhamma taught by me that is unrefuted, undefiled, blameless, not faulted by knowledgeable priests & contemplatives. 'There are these six media of sensory contact' is a Dhamma taught by me that is unrefuted, undefiled, blameless, not faulted by knowledgeable priests & contemplatives. 'There are these eighteen explorations for the intellect' is a Dhamma taught by me that is unrefuted, undefiled, blameless, not faulted by knowledgeable priests & contemplatives. 'There are these four noble truths' is a Dhamma taught by me that is unrefuted, undefiled, blameless, not faulted by knowledgeable priests & contemplatives." >> ---------- The next part of your post was something that you `couldn't resist' and which caused you to sign off anonymously. I'm sorry, but it went over my head. The original texts nearly always go over my head. I need them explained and spelt out in simple language. But don't do that in this case. There is obviously something you would rather not spell out. :-) Ken H > > and i can't resist: > > Disclosure: << 203. < There are three fool's characteristics of a fool > ... He is a speaker of the ill-spoken, a cogitator of the ill- cogitated, a > doer of the ill-done > (M.iii,163). > > 204. Herein, that he is aggressive by body or by speech, this is his state > of a "doer of the ill done". And likewise the false speech he speaks as > already demonstrated is his state of a "speaker of the ill-spoken". And > that he intends the mental misconduct consisting in ill-will, this is his > state of a "cogitator of the ill-cogitated". Since he is possessed of > these fool's characteristics, he exists with the three types of pain and > grief [correspondingly] born therefrom. And when he has gone to a meeting > or gone to an assembly he talks the type of talk born therefrom. And when > this tenfold course of unprofitable action beginning with killing > breathing things comes into being, with that as source he experiences pain > and grief. Furthermore, when he sees a felon who has offended the king > arrested by the king and put to death, then it occurs to him "If the king > knew about me, he might have me put to death too (cf. M.iii,163-4), and > with that as source [63] he experiences pain and grief. Furthermore < when > a fool is on his chair ... down to ...that will be my destination > (cf. > M.iii,164-5), with that as source he experiences pain and grief. > 205. Accordingly, the fool's characteristic is the cause, the three > [corresponding] kinds of pain born therefrom are the outcome, and that on > the dissolution of the body he reappears in hell is the fruit (cf.§198-9). > This is expressed in terms of hate. >> > > > ;) - > anonymous > > > ps, mike: have the cows come home? > #68102 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Feb 8, 2007 6:47 pm Subject: Re: Some Idle Thoughts on Nothing scottduncan2 Hi Herman, Thanks for a great reply! My experience of it was actually rather joyful. Later, when thinking about that, I realised that this was because I had had an earlier experience of worry that you would not take it well or be angry or not like me - all 'experience' as I see you would define it from the broad perspective. (And all quite mired in self-view.) I then differentiated this experience into what might have been 'realities' and what might have been 'concept' (I won't bore you but you're probably already thinking about it - sorry). This, I see, is what you don't like to do. I understand this to be because you only wish to speak of what you experience, and don't discuss what you consider to be concepts about experience. I have an idea about why we might differ. Let me try to get it across: In an earlier post I suggested we might differ somehow in our faith. I think I said you lacked a 'capacity' for faith which was an inaccurate statement. We all have this capacity since faith is a reality that arises due to conditions. I meant that I think your faith is less developed than mine, if I can put it that way. I'm speaking conventionally - faith is not anyone's therefore there are only levels of faith and no 'one' can have more - dig it? I mean that there might be relatively different levels of faith between the two of 'us'. At any rate, I say this because I think that it is faith, which I consider to be a reality - saddhaa cetasika - that gives me a different way of understanding things. Its hard to explain as well, yet I know it effects my experience of things somehow. I think saddhaa as a reality has an effect on my experience such that I somehow don't mind accepting that there are realities in existence yet to become available to experience. I know saddhaa because I experience it. You characterised yourself as 'half-Buddhist' (I realise this was tongue-in-cheek and I'm saying this in the same vein - there is no such thing as a 'buddhist') and I'd say I'm 'all-buddhist' and this is conditioned in part by saddhaa. And this saddhaa is conditioned by experience as well. This isn't all that clear, so please ask me to clarify if you wish. H: "Yes, that's how I see it. I don't quite know how to elaborate, but I'll give it a shot. When I talk to Mum on the phone, that is the experience. When I hear a voice and feel the telephone handpiece against my head, that is the experience. When I see a tree, I see a tree, and when I see colour, I see colour. I never experience paramattha dhammas, one at a time. Do you?" I don't generally experience paramattha dhammas one at a time either, no. I might have once though. But, as I tried to express above, this does clarify quite nicely how you understand it. I'll have to stop for now. Thanks for answering all of my questions. I'll come back to this. H: "It's been a while. I hope that you got around to those dishes :-)" This is why I must stop, truth be told. It's bizarre, actually. I did do those dishes. Yet even now, as I look, there are more! Some of them are actually the same ones I swear I did yesterday! And they're filthy again. What the hell? Are gremlins conceptual or real? Thanks again for your reply. Sincerely, Scott. #68103 From: "colette" Date: Thu Feb 8, 2007 1:50 pm Subject: Re: Toodles! ksheri3 Good Day connie, Group, I'm gonna give this another try since I have a good amount of time remaining today. Now, watch how I do this: > connie: is the library the only place you have computer access? could > you listen to mp3 recordings or read stuff off a cd if I sent them to some > street address or po box? if i were nicer i'd offer some of the books i > haven't given away yet, but alas! i'm not that kind, colette: > is the library the only place you have computer access? Yes, I'm a pauper, I've renounced materialism as being baubles and trinkets back in 1981 when I was just begining to learn the practices of the Western esoteric traditions. <....> For instance, a few yrs. ago a friend gave me a $200 gift certificate on the web, I have in my mailbox, but, whoever it is that monitors my computer use will not allow me to purchase anything from that gift certificate. Thus, all of the baubles, and trinkets, that I own and have own for many yrs., are the result of my good fortune scouring garbage cans and dumpsters in the alley. Even the clothes I wear came straight from the RE-CYCLED containers. Next question. > ... if I sent them to some > street address or po box? colette: since my home is a basement in a single family home that children rent, they have been so kind to allow me to pay a high rent and live in the cold basement, etc. (it's better than drunk hotels, etc.) I do have a mailing address at the Franscican Outreach Mission on LeMoyne (1st Ward, you can understand Tarot, the Major Arcana, and of course, the Magician). Next question. > if i were nicer i'd offer some of the books i > haven't given away yet, colette: May I say now that your generosity has been overwhelming since a lot of the joy I gained last w.e. was from reading your quoted text: "...a bit long, but beautiful:" which I was sent into a calm peaceful and joyous meditation upon reading for the first time, and then over, etc. Thank You. As for owning books, for yrs. I began collecting books in the esoteric sciences (1983-today) but when I was given the choice, again, it happens every ten yrs. approx. that society has a "mood swing" and they violently attack me and attempt to take my life any way they can, chicago knows this psychological condition very well thank you, <....> Thus if you were to send books Then they would allow me to read them, learn them, then, when it was clear that I can use the wisdom, they take it away and horde it to themselves as if they were imitating the movie THE EXORCIST. <.....> I will attempt to deal with the rest of this tomorrow, but now I've only got a few minutes to do some research and get the ten pages I am allowed to get from the printer for free. thank you. toodles, colette #68104 From: "colette" Date: Thu Feb 8, 2007 2:01 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: 'We are here to learn the dhamma' -- Miss Interpretation says Hi. ksheri3 Hi Sarah, I have to answer a point here: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Colette, > > Thanks for mostly sticking to the Dhamma with this one:-) > S: wit to match Connie's:-) > .... > > colette: and so you seperate "enlightenment" from any and all life? > .... > S: Quite the contrary. The point I was making was that as soon as we start > thinking in terms of rituals or special practices in order to become > enlightened, we are forgetting about following the path in 'any and all > life' at this moment. colette: THIS IS AN EXACT EXAMPLE OF THE MISINTERPRETATION, THE MISCONCEPTIONS, THE NEGATIVE THINKING, conerning any and all pagan theologies! LIFE IS A RITUAL. Do you mean to tell me that I cannot predict the ritual you and almost any other slave of capitalism, money, greed, baubles, trinkets, the rituals you people will go through every day and in any situations that confronts you? lets look at that oh so trivial THETA STATE OF CONSCIOUSNESS. Well, since the Dirbishes of Turkey went about reaching the trance state through the act of whirling, then we can say that the THETA STATE OF CONSCIOUSNESS is or maybe identicle to THE TRANCE STATE, we can ask any and all theologies about achieving a gnostic state. Every day, I can simply sit and suggest that I want to eliminate this many consumers from the market and low & behold I'll know exactly where their automobile is and who is driving that automobile, they can even enter a bottle neck where they can't move at all and well lets just say things can be dropped on them, you know "AIRBONE, DEATH FROM ABOVE" or any number of things that come "Trickling Down Effect" Enlightenment is Living It, not conforming to the status quo,<....> Wake up Sarah dear, come out of that drug induced coma your parents and friends sold to you in grade school. toodles, colette #68105 From: connie Date: Thu Feb 8, 2007 8:52 pm Subject: Theragatha (Was: Re: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (17) nichiconn Dear Joop and Howard (CandyMans), > Words that do not occur in my english-dutch dictionary: > aggrevating &confectionately > ==================== I really liked Connie's neologism of 'confectionately'. :-) It seems to be a mix of the words 'confection', meaning a very sweet food or dessert or cake, and 'affectionately', and, so, 'confectionately' would be a very sweetly loving adverb!! :-) With metta (how sweet it is!), ======= connie: Thanks, Howard. Also, one of the Englishizers of the Texts uses "confections" for "khandhas"... like honey off the blade ;) aggrevating was a pained stretch... aggregating, piling up the bricks (future 'trouble' / aggrevation). for the rest, Joop, my answer below if you're really interested. I'm not sure it serves a purpose. Let's just say I was still off laughing too loud in colette's library when I should've been paying more attention to you... but "no commentary!" - o, shushing librarians :( Q: "i'm thinking more likely"; does that mean: "I think to prefer"? A: That I'm not willing to speculate much about an arahant's mindstates? but see the quote below, to the question on "grief faculty". Q: "some heights of solitude than depths of anguish": is that a dichotomy? A: what's a dichotomy? anguish... mourning, etc... those sufferable terms. Solitude, like a rock or island unto itself. Q: "over the loss of the better half of the holy life": which two halves does 'holy life' has? A: right you are, companionship-wise. there is the declining "half[-life]" before the relics disappear completely. Q: "tho i'm not saying that": "tho" must mean "although"; and what are you (not) saying? A: yes, although. You asked about Aananda but I am not in a position to know. For myself, I was thinking about how there are no voice-hearer's; the gradual decline... Q: And "grief faculty"; do you prefer that word above "mourning", I don't: 'grief' is an emotion (not a faculty, to me), to 'mourn' is a process. A: "Faculty"... a sutta word; but I am reading << Pitaka Disclosure, 948. (4) Footings? lust-born fever is the footing for the pleasure faculty and for the joy faculty, hate-born fever is the footing for the pain faculty and for the grief faculty, delusion-born fever is the footing for the onlooking-equanimity faculty and for the grief faculty. >> Q: My final question: Ananda is still so human in the verses I quoted, do you agree he was at that moment not yet an arahat? (Perhaps 'being human' is a faculty?) A: The commentaries probably say. I got the impression the > #1036 of Hellmuth Hecker and Sister Khema > " Today alone I meditate > Like a bird gone to its nest." > was something of a "last words of Aananda" thing; he was Arahant at the First Council. peace, connie #68106 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Thu Feb 8, 2007 8:48 pm Subject: The Ability of Awareness! bhikkhu5 Friends: What is the Mental Ability of Awareness (Sati)? The Blessed Buddha once said: Bhikkhus, there are these five mental abilities (indriya). What five? The ability of Faith (saddhÄ? ) The ability of Energy (viriya ) The ability of Awareness (sati ) The ability of Concentration (samÄ?dhi ) The ability of Understanding (pañña ) But what is the mental ability of Awareness (Sati ) ? That which is Awareness, constant attention, recollection, mental presence, mindfulness, remembering, bearing in mind, alertness, watchful consciousness, non-neglect, non-oblivious, non-forgetfulness, non-carelessness, and non-superficiality. This is called the ability of Awareness, the Power of Awareness, Right Awareness, and the Awareness link to Awakening! But what is the Awareness link to Awakening? Herein a Bhikkhu is mindful, furnished with excellent Awareness, recollection, he remembers, remembers constantly, what has long been done & long been said concerning release even very long ago. This is called the Awareness link to Awakening... There is Awareness of internal states and there is Awareness of external states. Both Awareness of internal states & Awareness of external states is an Awareness link to Awakening leading to full knowledge, Enlightenment, & to complete emancipating release! Source: The Book of Analysis: Vibhanga 124 + 228 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=130304 For further study on the illuminating presence of Awareness: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/What_is_Right_Awareness.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Awareness_Sati.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Awareness_Analysis.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Feeding_Awareness.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Noble_Awareness.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/One_and_only_Way.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/Sati_Studies.htm http://what-buddha-said.net/drops/Causes_of_sati.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/Clear_Comprehension.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/Careful_and_Rational_Attention.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Clear_and_Aware_Comprehension.htm Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Ceylon * <....> #68107 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Feb 8, 2007 11:48 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: B.Bodhi article (was: Arahants and compassion) sarahprocter... Dear Joop, Thank you for your kind comments and further response. I'll just come back to questions and controversial points for now: --- Joop wrote: > It's not that I in stead of Arahant, Buddha or Bodhisatta now have > Bhikkhu Bodhi, getting more and more lenient when getter older, as an > ideal. It is good to discuss his texts because his style is clear. .... S: I agree ... > > S: Veneration of modern-day woould-be bodhisattvas is not what comes > to my mind. > > J: Sometimes you are rather direct and sometimes a little vague. Who > does venerate? .... S: I was referring to what BB wrote: "....we can also venerate those compassionate ones who vow to follow the route of the bodhisattva, and who make this vow as an act of supererogation....." .... > I think I don't. I follow my "spiritual intuition" that till now > never betrayed me. > And that intuition is telling me now: Joop, pay attention to > compassion. I do and doing it I try to give 'compassion' the place it > deserves in Theravada, trying to solve some doctrinair problems. > And trying at the same moment to solve the autistic tendency > accumulated in myself, a tendency I see for that reason in the > arahant-ideal. .... S: Understood ... > S: … I think it would be more appropriate to say: 'it is natural for > them to doubt, but doubt never leads to wisdom or confidence.' > > J: Without doubt I still have been a Christian believing what the > pastors told me, and other fairy tales. > "Doubt" is a phase in the process of 'letting go'. .... S: In the Pali canon references, doubt specifically refers to doubt about the realities which the Buddha has taught us about - doubt about namas and rupas and about the 4 Noble Truths, D.O., kamma etc .... > As quoted again this week "be an island" ! > In a way you are right: an island doesn't doubt, an island just is > (nobody). .... S: We have to learn to be an island and live alone with sounds, visual objects, odours, tastes, tactile objects and mental phenomena - understanding dhammas and seeing the danger in attachment, the partner that always follows us around. "....even though a bhikkhu who dwells thus lives in the vicinity of a village, associating whith bhikkhus and bhikkhunis, with male and female lay followers, with kings and royal ministers, with sectarian teachers and their disciples, he is still called a lone dweller. For what reason? Because craving is his partner, and he has abandoned it; therefore he is called a lone dweller." (SN35:63, Bodhi translation). ....... > And this all my faith in the Buddha is only growing! ... S: The more we see it is the truth - that there only ever is the world of sounds, visual objects and so on at this moment - the more our faith grows and the less doubt there is in what he taught. Metta, Sarah ===== #68108 From: connie Date: Thu Feb 8, 2007 11:51 pm Subject: Re: Are all the bad things that happen to us results of our deeds? nichiconn Hi Undercover Ken, I'm not even going to ask how you know I used to be Fluke's cal-lab tech 204... will wonders never cease? Partly, Dispeller 204 addressed 'why bad things happen'... even if it might sound like "yes, from deeds"... but mainly I was winking at Howard... never mind. I'd originally quoted the Sectarians with the (practical) intent of answering the subject line... not thinking about pinning down contemplatives or anything else to do beyond that. Yes, I did overlook: "<. . .> there is no desire, no effort [at the thought], 'This should be done. This shouldn't be done.' At Fluke, my favorite lab rat bud had stamp 207 (also a Mike, but not the one I'd just sent a sacred cow picture). << Dispeller 207: He who is pursuing the roundabout [of births] which has no recognizeable end (see S ii 178) < is born and dies > (D ii 30) has ignorance for his cause. And the purpose of determinative-acts have ignorance for their condition. That the unseeing of the Buddha's word is ignorance is demonstrated in the Thread too. And in so far as he who is ignorant treats determinations as self (§206) [and] allows the five views in regard to the five categories thus < This is mine, this is I, this is my self > (M iii 19), this Thread is consequently presented under ignorance. [And so] there must only be demonstrated there the unshared idea by which he demonstrates it, not any other (see §196). >> I take it those determinative-acts are not practical; but how to avoid them?? peace, connie #68109 From: "Joop" Date: Fri Feb 9, 2007 12:10 am Subject: Theragatha (Was: Re: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (17) jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connie wrote: > > Dear Joop and Howard (CandyMans), > > > Words that do not occur in my english-dutch dictionary: > > aggrevating &confectionately > > > ==================== > I really liked Connie's neologism of 'confectionately'. :- ) It > seems > to be a mix of the words 'confection', meaning a very sweet food or ... Hallo Connie, Howard I don't like them because I don't understand them: don't forget (americans) english is not my mothers-language. But I accept the apology of Connie. And I cannot imagine that somebody who spoke the gatha I quoted in # 68021, already was an arahant: he still was so attached to the Buddha (as a person). So they must have been spoken earlier than at the First Council (and recorded by whom?) Metta Joop #68110 From: connie Date: Fri Feb 9, 2007 1:35 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (20) nichiconn Dear Sisters-Enthusiasts, Jentaatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa The commentary on the verses of Therii Jentaa (Jentii) Ye ime satta bojjha"ngaati-aadikaa jentaaya theriyaa gaathaa. Tassaa atiita.m paccuppanna~nca vatthu abhiruupanandaavatthusadisa.m. Aya.m pana vesaaliya.m licchaviraajakule nibbattiiti ayameva viseso. Satthaaraa desita.m dhamma.m sutvaa desanaapariyosaane arahatta.m patvaa attanaa adhigata.m visesa.m paccavekkhitvaa piitivasena- 21. "Ye ime satta bojjha"ngaa, maggaa nibbaanapattiyaa; bhaavitaa te mayaa sabbe, yathaa buddhena desitaa. 22. "Di.t.tho hi me so bhagavaa, antimoya.m samussayo; vikkhii.no jaatisa.msaaro, natthi daani punabbhavo"ti.- Imaa dve gaathaa abhaasi. The verses [beginning] [I have developed all] these seven constituents of awakening are Therii Jentaa's. The story of her past and present [lives] is similar to the story of Abhiruupa-Nandaa. But she was born in the family of the king of the Licchavis in Vesaalii. There is this [further] difference: she heard the Doctrine taught by the Teacher, and at the end of the discourse she attained Arahatship. Examining the distinction gained by herself, joyfully she spoke these two verses: 21. I have developed all these seven constituents of awakening, the ways for the attainment of quenching, as taught by the Buddha. 22. I have indeed seen that Blessed One. This is the last body. Journeying on from rebirth to rebirth has been completely annihilated. There is now no renewed existence. RD: The Seven Factors of the awakened mind - Seven ways whereby we may Nibbana win - All, all have I developed and made ripe, Even according to the Buddha's word. (21) For I therein have seen as with mine eyes The Bless'd, the Exalted One. Last of all lives Is this that makes up Me. The round of births Is vanquished - Ne'er shall I be again! (22) Tattha ye ime satta bojjha"ngaati ye ime satidhammavicayaviiriyapiitipassaddhisamaadhi-upekkhaasa"nkhaataa bodhiyaa yathaavuttaaya dhammasaamaggiyaa bodhissa vaa bujjhanakassa ta.msama"ngino puggalassa a"ngabhuutattaa "bojjha"ngaa"ti laddhanaamaa satta dhammaa. Maggaa nibbaanapattiyaati nibbaanaadhigamassa upaayabhuutaa. Bhaavitaa te mayaa sabbe, yathaa buddhena desitaati te sattati.msa bodhipakkhiyadhammaa sabbepi mayaa yathaa buddhena bhagavataa desitaa, tathaa mayaa uppaaditaa ca va.d.dhitaa ca. 21. Here, these (ye ime) seven constituents of awakening (bojjha"nga) means: these (ye ime) that are named as (1) mindfulness, (2) investigation of states, (3) energy, (4) joy, (5) tranquillity, (6) concentration, and (7) equanimity are the collection of states of awakening (bodiyaa), as has been said. Or, because they are constituents of the person who possesses that - an awakened one (bodhissa), one who is awakened (bujjhanakassa) - the seven states have received the name "the constuents of awakening". The ways for the attainment of quenching means: being the means for the attainment of quenching. I have developed all ... as taught by the Buddha means: all of these thirty-seven requisites of awakening as taught to me by the Buddha, the Blessed One, have been truly produced and practised by me. Di.t.tho hi me so bhagavaati hi-saddo hetu-attho. Yasmaa so bhagavaa dhammakaayo sammaasambuddho attanaa adhigata-ariyadhammadassanena di.t.tho, tasmaa antimoya.m samussayoti yojanaa. Ariyadhammadassanena hi buddhaa bhagavanto a~n~ne ca ariyaa di.t.thaa naama honti, na ruupakaayadassanamattena. Yathaaha- "yo kho, vakkali, dhamma.m passati, so ma.m passatii"ti (sa.m. ni. 3.87) ca "sutavaa ca kho, bhikkhave, ariyasaavako ariyaana.m dassaavii"ti (ma. ni. 1.20; sa.m. ni. 3.1) ca aadi. Sesa.m vuttanayameva. Jentaatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa ni.t.thitaa. 22. In I have indeed seen that Blessed One, the word indeed (hi) has a causative meaning. Since the Blessed One, the Fully and Perfectly Awakened One, [the One Who] Embodies the Doctrine, has been seen through seeing the noble Doctrine attained by oneself, accordingly [for her] this is the last body. This is the connection [between those two phrases]. Indeed, it is through seeing the noble Doctrine that the Buddha, the Blessed Ones, and other noble ones are seen, not through the mere seeing of their physical body. As it is said, "Indeed, Vakkali, he who see the Doctrine sees me." "And indeed, O bhikkhus, one who is learned, a disciple of the noble ones, is one who sees the noble ones," and so forth. The meaning of the rest has been explained. Here ends the commentary on the verses of Therii Jentaa. ::::::::::::::::: connie #68111 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Feb 9, 2007 3:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (15) sarahprocter... Dear Scott, Connie, all, --- Scott Duncan wrote: > Dear connie, Sarah, Sisters-enthusiasts, > > I notice here: > > "...Cetasaati samaadhinaa. Cetosiisena hettha sammaasamaadhi vutto, > sammaasamaadhiggaha.neneva maggalakkha.nena ekalakkha.naa > sammaadi.t.thi-aadayo maggadhammaa gahitaava hontiiti, maggasa.mvarena > abhijjhaadikassa asa.mvarassa anavasesato pahaana.m dassita.m hoti..." > > "...Mind means: [restrained] through concentration. For here, > concentration is said to be under the category of mind. This means by > the inclusion of right concentration, which is a characteristic of the > [eightfold] path, the constituents of the path such as right view, > etc, which are individual characteristics [of the path], are also > included..." > > As pointed out repeatedly; right concentration as path constituent and > said to be an 'individual characteristic' of said path. .... S: This also reminds me of a comment in the sub-comy to the Satipatthana sutta with regard to sati and other path factors: "Why is the Arousing of Mindfulness intended by the word 'way'? Are there not many other factors of the way, namely, understanding, thinking, speech, action, livelihood, effort, and concentration, besides mindfulness? To be sure there are. But all these are implied when the Arousing of Mindfulness is mentioned, because these factors exist in union with mindfulness." Yes, we always have to consider the meaning. Like when suttas just refer to the development of awarenss of 'feelings' or 'body' etc - examples are given, but it doesn't mean just focus on one kind of reality! This is why K.Sujin always likes to stress the importance of really considering and understanding, not just following the texts. Metta, Sarah ======== #68112 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Feb 9, 2007 4:55 am Subject: Re: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (15) scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, I like this: S: "This also reminds me of a comment in the sub-comy to the Satipatthana sutta with regard to sati and other path factors: "Why is the Arousing of Mindfulness intended by the word 'way'? Are there not many other factors of the way, namely, understanding, thinking, speech, action, livelihood, effort, and concentration, besides mindfulness? To be sure there are. But all these are implied when the Arousing of Mindfulness is mentioned, because these factors exist in union with mindfulness." Yes, when considered as inter-related constituents of a particular type of moment of consciousness (kusala) then these are just elements which arise and fall away but in intricate coexistence and serving as condition, again intricately, for the next moment and the next. S: "Yes, we always have to consider the meaning. Like when suttas just refer to the development of awarenss of 'feelings' or 'body' etc - examples are given, but it doesn't mean just focus on one kind of reality! "This is why K.Sujin always likes to stress the importance of really considering and understanding, not just following the texts." She points out that it is not enough to merely consider that there can be 'understanding' but stresses the importance of the object, and by implication therefore, the function, when she says, "Understanding of what?" She also says that understanding is never 'my understanding' but is only just an element. Learning Dhamma, she says, is often very subtly, mistakenly and wrongly merely 'learning about me' as if this learning is mine and goes to help me understand myself better. These women of whom we are reading were clearly 'really considering and understanding' and with no self involved. Sincerely, Scott. #68113 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Fri Feb 9, 2007 5:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: right effort, and some Thailand impressions. egberdina Hi Sarah (and RobK), On 07/02/07, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Herman (& Rob K & James*), > > --- Herman Hofman wrote: > > > Hi RobertK, > > > > On 03/02/07, rjkjp1 wrote: > > > Dear Herman, > > > Whether I answer yes or no to your hypothetical question, the only way > > > it will ever be over is if the eighfold path is developed to attain > > > parinibbana. When there is right understanding there is a step towards > > > that goal, it does not come about by wishing..But only by repeated > > > steps in the right direction. > > > > I'm glad you've got causality/conditionality down pat. I won't answer > > your question either. > .... > S: Hmmmm, is that fair play?......You don't see this as an answer > (understandably) to your question, but isn't that just because you'd like > a Self introduced when you ask for opinions and experiences? When answers > are given (like Rob's) which refer to dhammas such as 'understanding' and > 'wishing', does that mean they don't qualify! Honestly, I have no reason to think RobK has a problem with my answer, or lack of it. But, in reply to you, no, I don't seek to have a self introduced anywhere. What puzzles me is why the phenomenon of choosing, the experience of choosing, always gets put into this atta basket by the same people again and again. Do they deny the phenomenon of choosing, that choosing happens? Why is it alright to say there is suffering but no one who suffers, but it can't be said that there is choosing, but noone who chooses? All dhammas qualify as answers, but unless a dhamma has a characteristic by which it is known, and made different to other dhammas, it is not a dhamma, but just a theoretical discussion piece. What is the characteristic of the dhamma "right understanding", for example? How is it different in quality from "wrong understanding"? And whichever other citta or cetasika you are going to introduce to be the arbiter, what discerns that to be the citta of the right or wrong kind? Can you see an infinite regress? I sure can. And the way this infinite regress has been addressed to date, is by appeals to authority. Or exhortations to go back to some of many texts, as though texts speak for themselves. All of this is totally unsatisfactory, precisely because there is no nexus with the only thing that is real, and shared, and that is experience, which you so devalue. > > Rob gave it a go and I think some of us are still waiting to hear your > 'go' at responding to his question (with regard to quoting a sutta as > 'authority', I believe) as you promised! If you've forgotten the exact > question, let me know and I'll fish it out again:-)) Rob asked: Am I right in thinking your position on studying the texts has changed and you take them as authoritative? If so I would like to discuss this sutta more and in relation to other suttas.. Herman answers: The use of the term "the texts" precludes the possibility of any useful discussion. Because "the texts" are actually only some texts, and in that misrepresentation there is evidence of a mind hellbent on staying firmly closed. > ... > > PS Perhaps you could test how well you understand causality by making > > a prediction, say, about Alex. Keep us informed. > ... > S: I don't see the significance of this passing comment. The whole point > about anatta and conditionality is that we have no idea whether seeing or > hearing or thinking will arise next moment. Are you able to make accurate > predictions about your children except in a very generalized sort of way? > If conditionality rules, then, in theory, the future is predictable. So it is entirely reasonable that claims to a superior understanding of conditionality are tested by a request for a prediction. The failure of that predicition to materialise will merely demonstrate that claims to superior understandings should be taken with a large dose of salt. On the other hand, I will assert that the future is unpredictable not because of a lack of knowledge or understanding, but because consciousness is entirely free in determining the meaning of it's object. And there is no right meaning. Kind Regards Herman #68114 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Fri Feb 9, 2007 5:07 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Not-Self and "Rebirth" dacostacharles Dear Howard, I understand your concern about the term, Rebirth. Sometimes "I" wish the Buddha had taken the time to develop his own terms instead of trying to redefine, or re-interpret Hindu concepts. It would have made it a lot easier to understand a lot of different ideas (both Buddhist and Hindu). But alas, he was only a Human, limited by (i.e., Hindu from the start) his experiences, imagination, intellect, and incarnations (depending on your view). Yours truly, Charles DaCosta <...> dacostas@POST10. TELE.DK writes: > Hi Howard, > > New feelings arise because old feelings are reborn as them. This rebirth > (i.e., not obtaining nirvana) is really the trigger (combined with the > object) of new feelings. --------------------------------------------- Howard: Your first sentence is not how I understand the Dhamma, but your second sentence seems to be saying you didn't mean the first literally. I do not understand the Buddha to have taught that anything is literally reborn or continues "in anything" (in the same or different form or guise). I understand him to have taught that phenomena do not remain but do serve as conditions for the arising of future phenomena that would not have arisen without them, and, conversely, that no phenomena arise indepndently of conditions. And this latter (converse) aspect is very important, for it says that not only do phenomena not remain, but even during their brief appearance, they are nothing in-and-of-themselves. The Dhamma, as I understand it, is not a teaching of continued substance and changing form, nor of nihilism, but of emptiness - the middle way. <...> #68115 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Feb 9, 2007 12:53 am Subject: Some Thoughts on the Sectarians Sutta (AN 3.61) upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and Connie, and all) - Below I provide a few comments indicating my understanding of the Tittha Sutta: _______________________ AN 3.61 Tittha Sutta Sectarians Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu PTS: A i 173 Thai III.62 Source: Transcribed from a file provided by the translator. Copyright © 1997 Thanissaro Bhikkhu. Access to Insight edition © 1997 For free distribution. This work may be republished, reformatted, reprinted, and redistributed in any medium. It is the author's wish, however, that any such republication and redistribution be made available to the public on a free and unrestricted basis and that translations and other derivative works be clearly marked as such. "Monks, there are these three sectarian guilds that — when cross-examined, pressed for reasons, & rebuked by wise people — even though they may explain otherwise, remain stuck in [a doctrine of] inaction. ------------------------------------------- Howard: I find my attention gotten when I see something about a doctrine of inaction calling for rebuke by the wise. ----------------------------------------- Which three? "There are priests & contemplatives who hold this teaching, hold this view: 'Whatever a person experiences — pleasant, painful, or neither pleasant nor painful — that is all caused by what was done in the past.' There are priests & contemplatives who hold this teaching, hold this view: 'Whatever a person experiences — pleasant, painful, or neither pleasant nor painful — that is all caused by a supreme being's act of creation.' There are priests & contemplatives who hold this teaching, hold this view: 'Whatever a person experiences — pleasant, painful, or neither pleasant nor painful — that is all without cause & without condition. '"Having approached the priests & contemplatives who hold that... 'Whatever a person experiences... is all caused by what was done in the past,' I said to them: 'Is it true that you hold that... "Whatever a person experiences... is all caused by what was done in the past? "' Thus asked by me, they admitted, 'Yes.' Then I said to them, 'Then in that case, a person is a killer of living beings because of what was done in the past. A person is a thief... unchaste... a liar... a divisive speaker... a harsh speaker... an idle chatterer... greedy... malicious... a holder of wrong views because of what was done in the past.' When one falls back on what was done in the past as being essential, monks, there is no desire, no effort [at the thought], 'This should be done. This shouldn't be done.' -------------------------------------- Howard: The paralysis due to a view of determinism. The ILL effect of being unable to energize oneself and exert purposeful effort in response to thoughts or hearing of what should or should not be done. -------------------------------------- When one can't pin down as a truth or reality what should & shouldn't be done, one dwells bewildered & unprotected. One cannot righteously refer to oneself as a contemplative. ------------------------------------- Howard: That is a *condemnation* of being unable to "pin down as a truth or reality what should & shouldn't be done", such inability leaving one "bewildered & unprotected". The point is that one properly should know clearly exactly what to do and what not to do so that intentional action is *not* paralyzed. ----------------------------------- This was my first righteous refutation of those priests & contemplative who hold to such teachings, such views. "Having approached the priests & contemplatives who hold that... 'Whatever a person experiences... is all caused by a supreme being's act of creation,' I said to them: 'Is it true that you hold that... "Whatever a person experiences... is all caused by a supreme being's act of creation? "' Thus asked by me, they admitted, 'Yes.' Then I said to them, 'Then in that case, a person is a killer of living beings because of a supreme being's act of creation. A person is a thief... unchaste... a liar... a divisive speaker... a harsh speaker... an idle chatterer... greedy... malicious... a holder of wrong views because of a supreme being's act of creation.' When one falls back on creation by a supreme being as being essential, monks, there is no desire, no effort [at the thought], 'This should be done. This shouldn't be done.' When one can't pin down as a truth or reality what should & shouldn't be done, one dwells bewildered & unprotected. One cannot righteously refer to oneself as a contemplative. This was my second righteous refutation of those priests & contemplative who hold to such teachings, such views. ----------------------------------------- Howard: Skipping similar comment on the foregoing. ---------------------------------------- "Having approached the priests & contemplatives who hold that... 'Whatever a person experiences... is all without cause, without condition,' I said to them: 'Is it true that you hold that... "Whatever a person experiences... is all without cause, without condition? "' Thus asked by me, they admitted, 'Yes.' Then I said to them, 'Then in that case, a person is a killer of living beings without cause, without condition. A person is a thief... unchaste... a liar... a divisive speaker... a harsh speaker... an idle chatterer... greedy... malicious... a holder of wrong views without cause, without condition.' When one falls back on lack of cause and lack of condition as being essential, monks, there is no desire, no effort [at the thought], 'This should be done. This shouldn't be done.' When one can't pin down as a truth or reality what should & shouldn't be done, one dwells bewildered & unprotected. One cannot righteously refer to oneself as a contemplative. This was my third righteous refutation of those priests & contemplative who hold to such teachings, such views. ------------------------------------------ Howard: Similar comment skipped on the foregoing also. ------------------------------------------ "These are the three sectarian guilds that — when cross-examined, pressed for reasons, & rebuked by wise people — even though they may explain otherwise, remain stuck in inaction. "But this Dhamma taught by me is unrefuted, undefiled, blameless, not faulted by knowledgeable priests & contemplatives. And which Dhamma taught by me is unrefuted, undefiled, blameless, not faulted by knowledgeable priests & contemplatives? 'There are these six properties' is a Dhamma taught by me that is unrefuted, undefiled, blameless, not faulted by knowledgeable priests & contemplatives. 'There are these six media of sensory contact' is a Dhamma taught by me that is unrefuted, undefiled, blameless, not faulted by knowledgeable priests & contemplatives. 'There are these eighteen explorations for the intellect' is a Dhamma taught by me that is unrefuted, undefiled, blameless, not faulted by knowledgeable priests & contemplatives. ------------------------------------------ Howard: I *do* take the last sentence as a firm endorsement for analytical study of sense doors, sense objects, and sense consciousness as in such sources as the Samyuyya Nikaya and the Abhidhamma. The statement is clear, and I'm not blind. -------------------------------------------- 'There are these four noble truths' is a Dhamma taught by me that is unrefuted, undefiled, blameless, not faulted by knowledgeable priests & contemplatives. "'"There are these six properties" is a Dhamma taught by me that is unre futed, undefiled, blameless, not faulted by knowledgeable priests & contemplatives': Thus was it said. And in reference to what was it said? These are the six properties: earth-property, liquid-property, fire-property, wind-property, space-property, consciousness-property. '"There are these six properties" is a Dhamma taught by me that is unrefuted, undefiled, blameless, not faulted by knowledgeable priests & contemplatives': Thus was it said. And in reference to this was it said. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: IMO, 'quality' might have been a translation preferable to 'property'. ----------------------------------------------- "'"There are these six media of sensory contact" is a Dhamma taught by me that is unrefuted, undefiled, blameless, not faulted by knowledgeable priests & contemplatives': Thus was it said. And in reference to what was it said? These are the six media of sensory contact: the eye as a medium of sensory contact, the ear as a medium of sensory contact, the nose as a medium of sensory contact, the tongue as a medium of sensory contact, the body as a medium of sensory contact, the intellect as a medium of sensory contact. '"There are these six media of sensory contact" is a Dhamma taught by me that is unrefuted, undefiled, blameless, not faulted by knowledgeable priests & contemplatives': Thus was it said. And in reference to this was it said. --------------------------------------- Howard: No comment on the foregoing. --------------------------------------- "'"There are these eighteen explorations for the intellect" is a Dhamma taught by me that is unrefuted, undefiled, blameless, not faulted by knowledgeable priests & contemplatives': Thus was it said. And in reference to what was it said? Seeing a form via the eye, one explores a form that can act as the basis for happiness, one explores a form that can act as the basis for unhappiness, one explores a form that can act as the basis for equanimity. Hearing a sound via the ear... Smelling an aroma via the nose... Tasting a flavor via the tongue... Feeling a tactile sensation via the body... Cognizing an idea via the intellect, one explores an idea that can act as the basis for happiness, one explores an idea that can act as the basis for unhappiness, one explores an idea that can act as the basis for equanimity. ' "There are these eighteen explorations for the intellect" is a Dhamma taught by me that is unrefuted, undefiled, blameless, not faulted by knowledgeable priests & contemplatives': Thus was it said. And in reference to this was it said. --------------------------------------- Howard: Now, here the foregoing gives me slight pause for thought. I wonder now whether the Buddha really intended "intellect" in the foregoing after all! It's not clear to me whether the "exploring" the Buddha is recommending here is purely a thinking over. It may be, though I think it is also a matter of looking clearly and exercising a direct understanding of what is observed as to its being conducive to "the good" or "ill". -------------------------------------- "'"There are these four noble truths" is a Dhamma taught by me that is unrefuted, undefiled, blameless, not faulted by knowledgeable priests & contemplatives': Thus was it said. And in reference to what was it said? "Sustained by/clinging to the six properties, there is an alighting of an embryo. There being an alighting, there is name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. To one experiencing feeling I declare, 'This is stress.' I declare, 'This is the origination of stress.' I declare, 'This is the cessation of stress.' I declare, 'This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress. ----------------------------------------- Howard: I find the foregoing interesting in that here the Buddha explains the four noble truths by discussing dependent origination. Thus we see how they address the same matter. ----------------------------------------- '"And what is the noble truth of stress? Birth is stressful, aging is stressful, death is stressful; sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair are stressful; association with what is not loved is stressful, separation from what is loved is stressful, not getting what is wanted is stressful. In short, the five clinging-aggregates are stressful. This is called the noble truth of stress. "And what is the noble truth of the origination of stress? "From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then old age & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering. "This is called the noble truth of the origination of stress. -------------------------------------------- Howard: Again, dependent origination! ------------------------------------------- "And what is the noble truth of the cessation of stress? "From the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then old age & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering."This is called the noble truth of the cessation of stress. ------------------------------------------- Howard: Again, dependent origination - in undoing mode. ------------------------------------------- "And what is the noble truth of the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress? Just this noble eightfold path: right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. This is called the noble truth of the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress. "'"There are these four noble truths" is a Dhamma taught by me that is unrefuted, undefiled, blameless, not faulted by knowledgeable priests & contemplatives': Thus was it said. And in reference to this was it said." Revised: Sunday 2006-06-18 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.061.than.html ======================== With metta, Howard #68116 From: "Joop" Date: Fri Feb 9, 2007 6:31 am Subject: [dsg] Re: B.Bodhi article (was: Arahants and compassion) jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > ... Dear Sarah Many thanks for your wise reponses. Only two points > S: … I think it would be more appropriate to say: 'it is natural for > them to doubt, but doubt never leads to wisdom or confidence.' > > J: Without doubt I still have been a Christian believing what the > pastors told me, and other fairy tales. "Doubt" is a phase in the process of 'letting go'. .... S: In the Pali canon references, doubt specifically refers to doubt about the realities which the Buddha has taught us about - doubt about namas and rupas and about the 4 Noble Truths, D.O., kamma etc Joop: How treacherous language can be: "doubt never leads" means: one specific kind of doubt …. BTW, I don't have doubt about namas and rupas, whereby I think "rupas" does not mean "matter" but "experienced material qualities". Nama versus rupa is not the same as the dichotomy (you know that word?) mind versus matter (or worse: soul versus body) of Rene Descartes. S: The more we see it is the truth - that there only ever is the world of sounds, visual objects and so on at this moment - the more our faith grows and the less doubt there is in what he taught. J: That's correct. I do think He taught the 4 Noble Truth, D.O., kamma, anicca, anatta etc. But He did not teach that our planet Earth is an archipel with 6 billion islands. We - human beings - are more connected to each other than we think and sometimes like. As I said to Connie this week: Only who fully can - or: could - be a human, can transcend being a human And: Ananda could only get an arahat when his attachment to the Buddha as a person was released. Metta Joop #68117 From: "Joop" Date: Fri Feb 9, 2007 6:36 am Subject: About Mudita jwromeijn Hallo all, For some reasons there is, when speaking about the Sublime States (Brahmaviharas) much attention paid to Loving-kindness (metta) and Equanimity (upekkha); but less to Compassion (karuna) and especially less to Sympathetic Joy (mudita). The last weeks I have tried many times to bring 'compassion' into DSG- discussion, using all kind of means (even Mahayana-thoughts) Now some words about Mudita. Some, I'm not a big expert. I think the reason mudita is a little skipped, is that's a positive formulated 'Sublime State' about a positive fact (the joy of others). Most people are not used to positive matters, we prefer to stress the negative (do we love the negative?) I think 'mudita' can be practiced in meditation like metta and karuna; this is sometimes called a 'recollection'. But it also can be practiced as an attitude in daily life, toward other beings, or better said: WITH other beings. A condition needed for that: really being interested in other beings. Friendship, in the first place spiritual friendship, is primary based on mudita. 'Mudita' occurs 5 times in the most important of all Buddhisc lists: the U.P: 31937, 33884, 46876, 47758, 52492 Below the contemplation of Nyanaponika Thera on this Sympathetic Joy. Metta Joop III Sympathetic Joy (Mudita) Not only to compassion, but also to joy with others open your heart! Small, indeed, is the share of happiness and joy allotted to beings! Whenever a little happiness comes to them, then you may rejoice that at least one ray of joy has pierced through the darkness of their lives, and dispelled the gray and gloomy mist that enwraps their hearts. Your life will gain in joy by sharing the happiness of others as if it were yours. Did you never observe how in moments of happiness men's features change and become bright with joy? Did you never notice how joy rouses men to noble aspirations and deeds, exceeding their normal capacity? Did not such experience fill your own heart with joyful bliss? It is in your power to increase such experience of sympathetic joy, by producing happiness in others, by bringing them joy and solace. Let us teach real joy to men! Many have unlearned it. Life, though full of woe, holds also sources of happiness and joy, unknown to most. Let us teach people to seek and to find real joy within themselves and to rejoice with the joy of others! Let us teach them to unfold their joy to ever sublimer heights! Noble and sublime joy is not foreign to the Teaching of the Enlightened One. Wrongly the Buddha's Teaching is sometimes considered to be a doctrine diffusing melancholy. Far from it: the Dhamma leads step by step to an ever purer and loftier happiness. Noble and sublime joy is a helper on the path to the extinction of suffering. Not he who is depressed by grief, but one possessed of joy finds that serene calmness leading to a contemplative state of mind. And only a mind serene and collected is able to gain the liberating wisdom. The more sublime and noble the joy of others is, the more justified will be our own sympathetic joy. A cause for our joy with others is their noble life securing them happiness here and in lives hereafter. A still nobler cause for our joy with others is their faith in the Dhamma, their understanding of the Dhamma, their following the Dhamma. Let us give them the help of the Dhamma! Let us strive to become more and more able ourselves to render such help! Sympathetic joy means a sublime nobility of heart and intellect which knows, understands and is ready to help. Sympathetic joy that is strength and gives strength: this is the highest joy. And what is the highest manifestation of sympathetic joy? To show to the world the path leading to the end of suffering, the path pointed out, trodden, and realized to perfection by Him, the Exalted One, the Buddha. #68118 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Feb 9, 2007 11:22 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily Life, Ch 23, no 10 nilovg Dear friends, Cittas can be counted as eighty-nine or as hundred and twenty-one. When cittas are counted as hundred and twenty-one, there are, instead of eight lokuttara cittas, forty lokuttara cittas, and these are lokuttara cittas accompanied by the jhåna-factors of the different stages of jhåna. As we have seen, there are five stages of rúpa-jhåna and at each stage jhåna-factors are successively abandoned, until at the fifth stage (or at the fourth stage of the fourfold system) there are the remaining factors of samådhi (concentration) and upekkhå (indifferent feeling) which arises instead of sukha (pleasant feeling). Lokuttara cittas can be accompanied by jhåna-factors of each of the five stages of jhåna. For example, when lokuttara cittas are accompanied by jhåna-factors of the fifth stage of rúpa-jhåna, it means that they are accompanied by samådhi and upekkhå. As regards arúpa-jhånacittas, they have meditation subjects which are different from the meditation subjects for rúpa-jhåna, but the jhåna- factors which accompany them are the same as the jhåna-factors of the fifth stage of rúpa-jhåna, namely samådhi and upekkhå. Thus, the jhåna-factors of the five types of rúpa-jhåna have to be taken into account when we classify lokuttara jhånacittas, lokuttara cittas accompanied by jhåna-factors of the different stages of rúpa-jhåna and arúpa-jhåna. Consequently, each one of the eight lokuttara cittas can be reckoned as fivefold and then there are forty lokuttara cittas. When cittas are counted as eighty-nine, they can be summarized as follows: 12 akusala citta 18 ahetuka cittas 8 mahå-kusala cittas 8 mahå-vipåkacittas 8 mahå-kiriyacittas 15 rúpåvacara cittas 12 arúpåvacara cittas 8 lokuttara cittas When cittas are counted as 121, there are, instead of 8 lokuttara cittas, 40 lokuttara cittas. The way to nibbåna seems to be extremely long and we may wonder how we could ever reach the goal. We should not be impatient and wish for a result that is far off. Instead, we should consider what we have to do at the present moment: to develop right understanding of the nåma and rúpa which appear right now. Thus we develop the condition for the attainment of nibbåna. ******* Nina. #68119 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Feb 9, 2007 11:27 am Subject: Letters on Vipassana 7, no 2. nilovg Dear friends, Khun Sujin spoke about her daily life. She goes out shopping, she plays scrabble or receives visitors. She does not always read the scriptures, but she listens every day to Dhamma on the radio. She follows the Middle Way. We cannot exert control over the arising of sati or direct it to specific objects. It is unpredictable what the next moment will be like. When there is attachment we can see it as just a reality. Khun Sujin pointed out that we need many "ingredients" for the growth of right understanding. These ingredients are the sobhana cetasikas (beautiful mental factors) which have been accumulated and which support one another and cooperate so that right understanding develops to the degree that it can achieve detachment from the self. A cook needs many ingredients in order to compose a meal. In the same way many ingredients are needed for a moment of precise understanding of the reality which appears. It is necessary to accumulate many moments of reading, listening, studying and considering. When we study the Dhamma in detail, we collect ingredients which lead to direct understanding later on. Khun Sujin said: "We read in order to understand this moment. We listen in order to understand this moment. We consider in order to understand this moment." When one is aware and there is no progress, one can know why: there is not enough understanding of the details of the Dhamma. You were wondering why one should know about details such as the four Great Elements of Earth, Water, Fire and Wind, which names designate the rúpas of solidity, cohesion, temperature and motion arising with each group of rúpas [1]. I liked the discussion you had with Khun Sujin, because usually people are wondering why it is necessary to know such details. You asked why it was not enough just to be aware of hardness when it appears. Khun Sujin answered that when one is just aware of hardness it is not enough. There are many realities which appear and they are conditioned by different factors. Visible object is the rúpa which appears through eyesense, but visible object does not arise alone, it arises in a group of other rúpas in which also the four Great Elements take part. Visible objects are various because they are conditioned by different compositions of the four Great Elements which arise together with them. Detailed knowledge helps us to see that what we experience is nothing but conditioned reality. The more we understand conditions the more shall we understand that there is no self. --------- [1] Rúpas arise and fall away in groups, consisting of at least eight rúpas, namely, the four great Elements and in addition colour, odour, flavour and nutritive essence. As regards the rúpas of the body, some groups consist of eight kinds of rúpa, and some consist of more than eight. ******** Nina #68120 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Feb 9, 2007 11:53 am Subject: Theriigathaa Sisters 14 nilovg Dear Scott, I liked your quotes and comments: Sarah: "This also reminds me of a comment in the sub-comy to the Satipatthana sutta with regard to sati and other path factors: "Why is the Arousing of Mindfulness intended by the word 'way'? Are there not many other factors of the way, namely, understanding, thinking, speech, action, livelihood, effort, and concentration, besides mindfulness? To be sure there are. But all these are implied when the Arousing of Mindfulness is mentioned, because these factors exist in union with mindfulness." Scott: Yes, when considered as inter-related constituents of a particular type of moment of consciousness (kusala) then these are just elements which arise and fall away but in intricate coexistence and serving as condition, again intricately, for the next moment and the next. -------- N: Right effort is by no means neglected as some people fear; it is included, it occurs in union with mindfulness of nama and rupa. No need to think of making an effort. Scott: shepoints out that it is not enough to merely consider that there can be 'understanding' but stresses the importance of the object, and by implication therefore, the function, when she says, "Understanding of what?" She also says that understanding is never 'my understanding' but is only just an element. --------- N: But it takes long to realize this, surreptiously it is still my understanding, 'I develop it'. --------. > > Scott: Learning Dhamma, she says, is often very subtly, mistakenly and > wrongly merely 'learning about me' as if this learning is mine and > goes to help me understand myself better. These women of whom we are > reading were clearly 'really considering and understanding' and with > no self involved. > N: very well said. > Nina. #68121 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Feb 9, 2007 12:06 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] About Mudita nilovg Hallo Joop, Thank you for your post on mudita and the article by Ven. Nyanaponika. I could add: when we rejoice in other people's good deeds, there is mudita. It is a kind of generosity, anumodana daana. In Thailand this is remembered very often, and it is a good example for me. People often say: anumodana, expressing their appreciation. If one has no material things to give one can make mental gifts. Nina. Op 9-feb-2007, om 15:36 heeft Joop het volgende geschreven: > For some reasons there is, when speaking about the Sublime States > (Brahmaviharas) much attention paid to Loving-kindness (metta) and > Equanimity (upekkha); but less to Compassion (karuna) and especially > less to Sympathetic Joy (mudita). #68122 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Fri Feb 9, 2007 1:10 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] About Mudita egberdina Hi Joop, > > 'Mudita' occurs 5 times in the most important of all Buddhisc lists: > the U.P: You have a wicked sense of humour :-) Kind Regards Herman #68123 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Fri Feb 9, 2007 1:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'We are here to learn the dhamma' egberdina Hi Scott, > Again, yes. There is no need to misunderstand these processes and > think to create a 'practise' out of them, such as purposive > recollection and reflection or concentrated focus with the aim being > to make something else happen. > The following came to mind when I read your "there is no need to ....". Is there ever a case when there is a need to ......? Just curious. Kind Regards Herman #68124 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Fri Feb 9, 2007 1:23 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: pa~n~natti and cohesion. egberdina Hi Joel, On 08/02/07, joelaltman26 wrote: > Dear Nina, > > thank you for your clarifications. i now understand that i have been > chunking realities and concepts together, and this has helped to > stress that citta really only experiences one arumana at a time, and > then immediately it falls away and another appears. > > it also reminds me that i need to be patient and allow the realities > to emerge and the elements (cetasikas) to develop... to have more > refined and precise understanding from moment to moment of the > invididual cittas that are zipping by. > Welcome aboard the list. I am on a "what does needing mean" trip at the moment, and I was just wondering what it means to you when you say you need to be something....... (patient, allowing, refined etc etc). Do you think that there is a "need" citta or cetasika? Or is "need" more like the roots of craving aversion etc etc? Kind Regards Herman #68125 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Fri Feb 9, 2007 11:28 am Subject: What are the aggregets of Intellect? dacostacharles Hi all I know feeling is "pleasant, indifferent, and unpleasant" And for intelligence I need something more than "concocting". Yours truly, Charles DaCosta #68126 From: "colette" Date: Fri Feb 9, 2007 12:25 pm Subject: Re: Are all the bad things that happen to us results of our deeds? ksheri3 connie, dear, surely you knew, Interesting how the material I'm focusing on is interlocked, interdependent, to something such as this. The second I read it last night I said that "this is exactly the type of investigation I need to do concerning this aspect of 'astral travel(projection)'." Do ya think we get anywhere here: "That Vasubandhu successfully presented counter-arguments to the realist's criticism is not equivalent, however, to saying that his own position is demonstrated. The problem remains. Both in waking and in dreams we do have a perception of something. How is it possible that 'something' does not exist independently of consciousness; or how is it possible that 'something' exists as manifested by, and to, consciousness above?" Another aspect of this "dependence to" concept is very prominent in my investigations: "...Vasubandhu did not deny the efficacy of things and actions, but argued that efficacy is exactly prompted by perception-only without necessarily relying on an external object as its cause. A good example is a wet dream in which sexual excitement can be aroused by a sex partner who in fact is nonexistent." Got any pros or maybe they're Cons? ;-) toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connie wrote: > > > Hi Jim-James, Phil, Colette, > You might also try e-searching for the venerable Ledi Sayadaw's "The > Niyama-Dipani [The Manual of Cosmic Order]" for more on 'natural law' / > 'status-quo'. > peace, > connie > #68127 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Fri Feb 9, 2007 1:35 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: what should be often contemplated. egberdina Hi KenH, > > OK, but there is only one Dhamma - one `way things are'. It doesn't > change for the benefit of folks and their strokes. > This is a very interesting point of view, that there is only one point of view. It wouldn't happen to be yours by any chance, would it :-)? I learned something interesting the other day. And that is that Jains think it possible to be reborn as a plant/tree. This of course also means that Jains can recollect their former existences as trees, being cut up for firewood and as planks etc etc. Of course, this is not possible in Theravadan Dhamma. If you came to recollect something like the above, what would be your approach? Would you make the observation fit the theory, or would you broaden the theory to accomodate the observation? Nice to see you back, and in flying form :-) Kind Regards Herman #68128 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Fri Feb 9, 2007 1:52 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions egberdina Hi TG, > > TG: Because of anatta, the understanding of anatta is a possibility. > So to > some extent I would credit whatever level the understanding of > conditionality is to no-self. Even if it is a tainted or very fleeting understanding. > The more we practice, the more that understanding persists. > I thought this was very good. And the opposite is true also. Because not atta, the understanding of atta is not a possibility. There can be no understanding of self. Kind Regards Herman #68129 From: "colette" Date: Fri Feb 9, 2007 12:39 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: 'We are here to learn the dhamma' -- Miss Interpretation says Hi. ksheri3 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > S: Again, quite the opposite of what I was suggesting. Enlightenment only > occurs when the path has been followed. The path can only be followed at > this moment, regardless of the situation. There are always dhammas > appearing which can be known. colette: this was not my intention to reply to this commetn but as I scrolled down to delete this popped out. So, shazam: > Enlightenment only > occurs colette: you've gone and placed a restriction on enlightenment! <....> --------------------------------------------------- > S: As soon as there is 'we intentionally' doing anything, there's no > understanding, no path. colette: <...>You sound VERY NIHILIST, could it be your theravadan side peeking out? There is no 'WE', no 'essence', no 'WE DO'. There > are bare phenomena - namas and rupas - rolling on. colette: I had a good repor and conversation with Dr. S.Drobb concerning the kaballah but our discussion came to an end when I inquired if he would mind if I did something which involved him. I simply asked if I could "step into his shoes". Same question to you Sarah? toodles, colette That's all! > .... > #68130 From: "colette" Date: Fri Feb 9, 2007 2:04 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Identifying Views. ksheri3 Hi Charles, The moderators can testify that I only read so far before I get a itch to respond then all hell breaks loose. So, I only got to the first statement. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Charles DaCosta" wrote: > > Hi Colette, > OK, now I am starting to focus again (boy, you proved I am no arhat). colette: I did not prove anything! I simply bring forth plausible deniability! <....> Oh > well, one less thing to justify my feeble existence. colette: exactly, resolve that our actions are nothing more than feeble behaviors to attempt to change, altar, so form of existance THAT DOES NOT EXIST! I am in full agreement. <...> > > You asked, "does 'precondition' = prerequisite?" No. 16 = 6+10, 4X4, 2 to > some power, the square root of some number, ... colette: <...> Numbers are not everything. <...> The only prerequisite in this case is "countables;" colette: what the hell does quantifing everythinghave to do with it. got ta go. colette even unknowns that are > countables can be accepted as a precondition but not necessarily as a > prerequisite. > > To qualify Karma's existence, you must open the 6-sense gates and perceive > it, because it is here and now as the effects of various thoughts and acts. <...> #68131 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Fri Feb 9, 2007 2:04 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions egberdina Hi TG (and Howard), > > See above. If your usage has always been that the word condition > refers to the quality of the phenomenon rather than what contributed > to it's arising, then I probably have misunderstood everything you > have ever said :-) > > TG: Would not "phenomena" also be something that contributed to arising? > Just a thought. > This is more than just a thought :-) There are major implications here for an understanding of how "stuff happens". You are suggesting the question "is experience causal?" Well, I reckon that topic is bigger than Ben Hur. I have plenty of thoughts about the matter, but I also think that any hypotheses are impossible to test. A very thought provoking thought, nonetheless. Kind Regards Herman #68132 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Fri Feb 9, 2007 2:13 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Some Idle Thoughts on Nothing egberdina Hi Howard, On 09/02/07, upasaka@... wrote: > Hi, Herman (and Scott) - > > In a message dated 2/8/07 6:25:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, > hhofmeister@... writes: > > > When I see a tree, I see a > > tree, and when I see colour, I see colour. I never experience > > paramattha dhammas, one at a time. > ==================== > When you "see a tree", IMO you do not see a tree. You conceive a tree. > What you see is a sight, a multi-shaded visual panorama within which > cognitive processing carves out a pattern identified as "a tree". > You are certainly right. (Un)fortunately English is ambiguous on many fronts, and usages like "I see what you mean" are quite valid. Seeing a tree as appearance, and seeing a tree as meaning are quite different acts/operations, and it would be much better to use different words to allude to those operations. Kind Regards Herman #68133 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Fri Feb 9, 2007 2:09 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] elements of experience egberdina Hi Howard, > > And the reality of specific, existing things, is that they are not > > known in isolation. There is no experience of individual colour or > > sound elements making a composite whole, there is experience of > > wholes. > > > ------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Here you lose me with the first of these two sentences. I consider a > sight or a sound as whatever the entire visual or auditory content of conscious > is at a given time. It does have structure, but that is only discovered by > means of mental operations other than just consciousness, which is merelty the > experiential presence of the content. > ======================= I think we actually agree. What I was trying to say was that consciousness occurs as a field, not as a point. Kind Regards Herman #68134 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Fri Feb 9, 2007 2:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Identifying Views. egberdina Hi Collete, > > got ta go. > > colette > No you don't :-) Kind Regards Herman #68135 From: "joelaltman26" Date: Fri Feb 9, 2007 2:17 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: pa~n~natti and cohesion. joelaltman26 Her man, thank you for engaging me Herman... i have been looking to find a way [this seems like an embedded needing = wanting to find a way...] to penetrate this web here for a little while, but it seems to be moving at such a quick pace... > I am on a "what does needing mean" trip at > the moment, and I was just wondering what it means to you when you say > you need to be something....... (patient, allowing, refined etc etc). > Do you think that there is a "need" citta or cetasika? Or is "need" > more like the roots of craving aversion etc etc? i appreciate you calling me out on this attachment... this is a flagrant attachment to a false concept of self who can do something in order to achieve a certain goal. i was just listening to the Bankok recordings earlier this morning, when they were discussing the subtle craving of the anagami to become an arahat... that it is still akusula, but that it is "o.k." ... what to do anyway if it is arising, if it is there. and they were questioning whether or not craving can serve as a condition for progress... they quoted the example of the cow who without the craving for water wouldn't drink or eat, etc... the idea of "need" seems to presuppose a self who can know what the right goal is and who can also know what the proper means are to reach that goal. it basically sounds to me like wrong view and wrong practice :) and i am the first to admit that i am caught up in that. i have been living in an ashram now in silence for quite a while, practicing over 12 hours a day. Just over a month ago, dhamma popped into my life and i can't be the same, can't follow the routine and rituals anymore. but how to just throw on the breaks like that? like i was speeding down the highway at 110 mph and all of a sudden, saw an exit for "right now, this very moment" and slammed on the breaks to turn off... in peace, j. #68136 From: connie Date: Fri Feb 9, 2007 2:33 pm Subject: Re: right effort, and some Thailand impressions. nichiconn Hi Herman, Herman: What puzzles me is why the phenomenon of choosing, the experience of choosing, always gets put into this atta basket by the same people again and again ... as though texts speak for themselves. ... the future is unpredictable not because of a lack of knowledge or understanding, but because consciousness is entirely free in determining the meaning of it's object. And there is no right meaning. Connie: Even a single Text speaks volumes and The Texts speak among each other as very choice authority to consider but who is going to hear if they aren't read at all? But I think you mean the kind of 'choice' through which, predictably enough, "The world's going to hell in a handbasket" due to freedom of conscious determinations predicated on view. Dispeller 911. << In so far as he abides associated with these sensual desires, with them kept in being (?), cleaved to them, this is "choice". >> That atta-boy 911's from a nice section beginning: << What is chosen, what is asserted, [what is allowed to have underlying tendency] >> . The discussion goes back to the end of an earlier paragraph: << [And] < What is chosen > and < what is asserted > (cf S ii, 65f) and < name-and-form's finding a footing > (S ii, 101f): With these four (?) terms, corruption; with the four (?) [in the negative paragraph], penetration. See: The Cetana Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.038.than.html (yes, I hear the voice of Sarah: "See UP's"!) peace, connie #68137 From: "Phil" Date: Fri Feb 9, 2007 3:10 pm Subject: Re: About Mudita philofillet Hi Joop and all Mudita is there for the having. Not so easy though, come to think of it. Mudita would condition abstention from criticizing the Dhamma approaches of others, for example, and would condition joy for their confidence they have in the Dhamma. We can all ask ourselves how often we abstain from criticizing (or even feeling secret displeasure from) others' approaches to Dhamma - even if that approach involves their critizing our own. I have sensed a lack of mudita when I heard meditation discussed during the recorded talks (on the list, the tone is more diplomatic) and, on the other hand, when people find fault with Acharn Sujin or aspects of DSG such as the Useful Posts. Not so easy... Of course, constructive criticism is a deed of merit as well. Sorry to sound self-righteous. Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: > > Hallo all, > > For some reasons there is, when speaking about the Sublime States > (Brahmaviharas) much attention paid to Loving-kindness (metta) and > Equanimity (upekkha); but less to Compassion (karuna) and especially > less to Sympathetic Joy (mudita). #68138 From: "colette" Date: Fri Feb 9, 2007 2:29 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Identifying Views. ksheri3 Charles, In ten minutes lets see: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Charles DaCosta" wrote: > > To qualify Karma's existence, you must open the 6-sense gates and perceive > it, because it is here and now as the effects of various thoughts and acts. colette: Vasubandhu: "idam sarvam vijnaptimatrakam" or "All this world is ideation only" YOU mistake that without the mind then your eye consciousness can have consciousness or..., no? Doesn't the object have to exist before YOU CAN HAVE CONSCIOUSNESS OF ITS EXISTENCE? If your eye has consciousness of a thing before your mind THEN that thing EXISTS as your eye exists, no? It had to come from somewhere and reach your eye, go somewhere else, before you could cognize its existence, no? > > To see karma in the future, you have to train by seeing it in the past and > the present. colette: I like that statement. Thank you. Now you've gone and taken one of those illusive off-ramps from the beaten path that I've always warned about. Oh, they hold a lot of fun and promise but that's only if you're a specialist. Otherwise, it is such a useless sidetrip. Okay, you manifest a distingsion between past, present, and future. You also state that they can be seen. Ah, you place karma in a rather interesting position since karma may not like being seen. How can we tell that karma can be seen? What are the distinguishing characteristics of karmic effects? You, are lucky, since I happen to specialize in things such as this. Actuaries really don't like me hanging around telling people that the EXTORTION MONEY THEY PAY is highly exploded. TRAIN THE MIND. Lets ask if DOES THE LION ROAR? May we bring in our kung fu specialists as well. toodles, colette If you only consider it as in the future then your view of > KARMA may be mislabelled. > > Why id I read this again, now I am laughing again. > > Charles DaCosta <...> #68139 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Feb 9, 2007 10:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] elements of experience upasaka_howard Hi, Herman - In a message dated 2/9/07 5:22:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, hhofmeister@... writes: > I think we actually agree. What I was trying to say was that > consciousness occurs as a field, not as a point. > > =================== I would say "the content of consciousness" instead of "consciousness", but, yes, that is what I would say as well - as a field, not as a point. With metta, Howard #68140 From: "Phil" Date: Fri Feb 9, 2007 4:08 pm Subject: Re: About Mudita philofillet Hi again, Joop and all Thinking more about mudita. I posted about this when I first came to DSG - still not clear, but perhaps not so important. Anyways.. When we see someone doing something that we know will probably lead to harmful results, can there still be mudita? For example, someone is drinking alcohol, speeding on a motorcyle, that sort of thing. The person is joyful, but do we reflect on what is coming or can there still be mudita? Probably both. Definitely both, at different moments. Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > Hi Joop and all > > Mudita is there for the having. Not so easy though, come to think > of > it. Mudita would condition abstention from criticizing the Dhamma > approaches of others, for example, and would condition joy for their > confidence they have in the Dhamma. #68141 From: "m_nease" Date: Fri Feb 9, 2007 5:00 pm Subject: Re: Are all the bad things that happen to us results of our deeds? m_nease Hi Connie, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connie wrote: > ps, mike: have the cows come home? As mistakenly replied to Ken... #68142 From: "m_nease" Date: Fri Feb 9, 2007 4:58 pm Subject: Re: Are all the bad things that happen to us results of our deeds? m_nease Hi Ken, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ken_aitch" wrote: > > ps, mike: have the cows come home? MY sacred cows will ALWAYS have a home with ME... mike #68143 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Fri Feb 9, 2007 5:06 pm Subject: Re: Some Thoughts on the Sectarians Sutta (AN 3.61) ken_aitch Hi Howard, I am out of my depth with the Tittha Sutta; I don't know if it deals with all sectarian guilds or just three of them. I think that it might be the latter, and that they are the sectarian guilds that side with annihilationism. If I am right, there could be a complimentary sutta that deals with eternalist sectarian guilds. However, they might be referred to as being `"swept away" in a doctrine of action.' If you recall the Ogha Sutta (which we both like) you might find that striving leads to being swept away, while standing still leads to sinking (being stuck?). Who knows how it applies to the Tittha Sutta? I am only guessing. What I do know is that (according to the texts) the Buddha's proclamation of the Dhamma was an event of literally cosmos-shaking proportions (the devas' voices rang out and shook the cosmos). So, whenever I hear a teaching that is ordinary, or commonplace, I feel sure it is not the real thing. In this sutta, the Buddha rules out three possibilities. They are that everything is the result of the past, that everything is the creation of Almighty God, and that everything is the result of blind chance. What other possibility could there be? I think if we are going to have the right attitude for hearing the Dhamma we must be ready to hear something amazingly new and completely different from anything we already know. ----------- > "Monks, there are these three sectarian guilds that < > when cross- examined, pressed for reasons, & rebuked by wise people < > even though they may explain otherwise, remain stuck in [a doctrine of] inaction." Howard: > I find my attention gotten when I see something about a doctrine of inaction calling for rebuke by the wise. ------------- Yes, but I think the point being made in the sutta is, "Those are the only three possibilities known to uninstructed worldlings (or is it to the annihilationists among us?): They know of no other way. Whether they admit to it or not, they all subscribe to a doctrine of inaction. I think you will agree that sectarian guilds devoted to Almighty God (for example) can be very active – praying, teaching, helping the poor and so on – so, even though they "explain otherwise" as the sutta says, they are ultimately stuck in inaction. --------------------- <. . .> "When one falls back on what was done in the past as being essential, monks, there is no desire, no effort [at the thought], 'This should be done. This shouldn't be done.'" Howard: That is a *condemnation* of being unable to "pin down as a truth or reality what should & shouldn't be done", such inability leaving one "bewildered & unprotected". The point is that one properly should know clearly exactly what to do and what not to do so that intentional action is *not* paralyzed. ----------------------- Yes, but what does it mean at a deep, non-commonplace, level? I think it means that the world is simply a moment of fleeting conditioned paramattha dhammas, and we should learn to know those dhammas as they truly are. That would include knowing which dhammas are Path Factors (leading to the end of suffering), and which are not. Ken H #68144 From: connie Date: Fri Feb 9, 2007 6:26 pm Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (21) nichiconn Dear Friends, Suma"ngalamaatutheriigaathaava.n.nanaa - The commentary on the verses by Therii Suma"ngalamaataa (Sumangala's Mother) Sumuttikaati-aadikaa suma"ngalamaataaya theriyaa gaathaa. Ayampi purimabuddhesu kataadhikaaraa tattha tattha bhave kusala.m upacinitvaa imasmi.m buddhuppaade saavatthiya.m daliddakule nibbattitvaa The verses [beginning] [I am] well released are by Therii Suma"ngalamaataa. She, too, having acquired the necessary [moral] qualifications under former Buddhas and having accumulated good deeds in various lives, was born during this Buddha era in a poor family in Saavatthi. vayappattaa a~n~natarassa na.lakaarassa dinnaa pa.thamagabbheyeva pacchimabhavika.m putta.m labhi. Tassa suma"ngaloti naama.m ahosi. Tato pa.t.thaaya saa suma"ngalamaataati pa~n~naayittha. Yasmaa panassaa naamagotta.m na paaka.ta.m, tasmaa "a~n~nataraa therii bhikkhunii apa~n~naataa"ti paa.liya.m vutta.m. Sopissaa putto vi~n~nuta.m patto pabbajitvaa saha pa.tisambhidaahi arahatta.m patvaa suma"ngalattheroti paaka.to ahosi. When she came of age, she was given [in marriage] to a certain rush-plaiter. In her very first pregnancy she had a son who was one [who has reached] his last birth, and his name was Suma"ngala. She was known from that time on as Suma"ngalamaataa [Suma"ngala's mother]. But she was not well known because of her ancestry; therefore, in the canon she is said to be "a certain unknown bhikkhunii." And this son went forth when he came of age and attained Arahatship together with the [four] discriminations. He was well known as the Elder Suma"ngala. {c: Mrs Rhys Davids notes: << This is the Elder Sumangala, who in his verse (Theragaathaa, 43) celebrates his release from three 'crooked things' (supra, Ps. xi.) - from sickle, plough, and spade. >> [his verse was quoted in dsg #68074 on Sisters (11)]} Tassa maataa bhikkhuniisu pabbajitvaa vipassanaaya kamma.m karontii ekadivasa.m gihikaale attanaa laddhadukkha.m paccavekkhitvaa sa.mvegajaataa vipassana.m va.d.dhetvaa saha pa.tisambhidaahi arahatta.m patvaa udaanentii- 23. "Sumuttikaa sumuttikaa, saadhumuttikaamhi musalassa; ahiriko me chattaka.m vaapi, ukkhalikaa me de.d.dubha.m vaati. 24. "Raaga~nca aha.m dosa~nca, cicci.ti cicci.tiiti vihanaami; saa rukkhamuulamupagamma, 'aho sukhan'ti sukhato jhaayaamii"ti.- Imaa dve gaathaa abhaasi. His mother went forth with the bhikkhuniis and devoted herself to the gaining of insight. One day, she examined for herself the pain she had been subject to at the time she was a householder and a profound stirring arose [in her]. She increased her insight and attained Arahatship together with the [four] discriminations. Making a solemn utterance, she spoke these two verses: 23. I am well released, well released, properly released from the pestle. My shameless man, even his sunshade, etc, [disgust me]. My pot gives forth the smell of a water snake. 24. I destroy desire and hatred with a sizzling sound. I go to the foot of a tree, and thinking, "O the happiness," meditate upon it as happiness. R-D verse: O woman well set free! how free am I, *125 How throughly free from kitchen drudgery! Me stained and squalid 'mong my cooking-pots My brutal husband ranked as even less Than the sunshades he sits and weaves alway. *126 (23) Purged now of all my former lust and hate, I dwell, musing at ease beneath the shade Of spreading boughs - O, but 'tis well with me! (24) R-D note: *126 In the Pali the first two lines depart from the s'loka metre, being apparently a curious variety of some metre I cannot identify. See Introduction. The last two lines revert to the s'loka, sukhato being an obvious gloss. Quite literally, the quaint and elliptical passage runs: 'The shameless one me "sunshade" only,' which the Commentary explains as 'My husband calls me not even an umbrella which he makes for his livelihood.' There seems nothing in verses or Commentary to justify Dr. Neumann's inference that her husband lived on her adulterous earnings. Toil has spoilt her looks, and he takes no further pleasure in them. Tattha sumuttikaati sumuttaa. Ka-kaaro padapuura.namatta.m, su.t.thu muttaa vataati attho. Saa saasane attanaa pa.tiladdhasampatti.m disvaa pasaadavasena, tassaa vaa pasa.msaavasena aamantetvaa vutta.m "sumuttikaa sumuttikaa"ti. Ya.m pana gihikaale visesato jigucchati, tato vimutti.m dassentii "saadhumuttikaamhii"ti-aadimaaha. Tattha saadhumuttikaamhiiti sammadeva muttaa vata amhi. Musalassaati musalato. Aya.m kira daliddabhaavena gihikaale sayameva musalakamma.m karoti, tasmaa evamaaha. 23. Here, well released (sumuttikaa) means well released (sumuttaa). The syllable ka merely fills out the verse. "[I am] well released (su.t.thu mutta) indeed." This is the meaning. Seeing the success obtained by herself in the teaching because of her faith, or addressing her[self] by way of praise, well released, well released is said. Moreover, whatever she was disgusted with, especially at the time she was a householder, showing her release from that, she said, I am ... properly released, etc. There, I am ... properly released (saadhu muttikaamhi) means: "I am (amhi) indeed released (muttaa) properly (samma-d-eva)." From the pestle (musalassa) means: from a pestle (musalato). Now she did this job of using the pestle herself at the time she was a householder because of her poverty; therefore, she speaks thus. Ahiriko meti mama saamiko ahiriko nillajjo, so mama na ruccatiiti vacanaseso. Pakatiyaava kaamesu virattacittataaya kaamaadhimuttaana.m pavatti.m jigucchantii vadati. Chattaka.m vaapiiti jiivitahetukena kariiyamaana.m chattakampi me na ruccatiiti attho. Vaa-saddo avuttasamuccayattho, tena pe.laaca"nko.takaadi.m sa"nga.nhaati. Ve.luda.n.daadiini gahetvaa divase divase chattaadiina.m kara.navasena dukkhajiivita.m jigucchantii vadati. "Ahitako me vaato vaatii"ti keci vatvaa ahitako jaraavaho gihikaale mama sariire vaato vaayatiiti attha.m vadanti. Apare pana "ahitako paresa.m duggandhataro ca mama sariirato vaato vaayatii"ti attha.m vadanti. My shameless man (ahiriko me) means: my (mama) shameless, unscrupulous (nillajjaa) husband (saamiko) - he did not please me. [These are] the rest of the words [to be inferred]. Because her mind was by nature detached from sensual pleasures, she speaks, disgusted with the conduct of those intent on sensual pleasures. Even his sunshade, etc means: it does not please me when he is making sunshades, etc, for his livelihood. This is the meaning. The word etc (vaa) has the meaning of adding those things that are not mentioned; accordingly, she includes baskets, boxes, etc. She speaks of being disgusted with the painful livelihood based on making sunshades, etc, with bamboo sticks, etc, day after day. Some, saying [the reading is]: "an unwholesome (ahitako) wind blows for me," say this is the meaning: "an unwholesome wind bringing old age blew on my body at the time I was a householder." But others say the meaning is: a wind blows from my body that is unwholesome (ahitako) and even more evil smelling to others. Ukkhalikaa me de.d.dubha.m vaatiiti me mama bhattapacanabhaajana.m cirapaarivaasikabhaavena aparisuddhataaya udakasappagandha.m vaayati, tato aha.m saadhumuttikaamhiiti yojanaa. My pot (ukkhalikaa me) gives forth the smell (vaati) of water snake (de.d.dubha.m) means: my (me = mama) bowl for cooking food (bhatta-pacana-bhaajana.m) smelled (vaayati) like the odour of a water snake (udaka-sappa-gandha.m) because it was unclean from being used for a long time. From this I am properly released. This is the connection [between these two phrases]. Raaga~nca aha.m dosa~nca, cicci.ti cicci.tiiti vihanaamiiti aha.m kilesaje.t.thaka.m raaga~nca dosa~nca cicci.ti cicci.tiiti iminaa saddena saddhi.m vihanaami vinaasemi, pajahaamiiti attho. Saa kira attano saamika.m jigucchantii tena divase divase phaaliyamaanaana.m sukkhaana.m ve.luda.n.daadiina.m sadda.m garahantii tassa pahaana.m raagadosapahaanena sama.m katvaa avoca. 24. I destroy (vihanaami) desire and hatred with a sizzling sound means: I destroy, I get rid of, I abandon the greatest defilements, desire and hatred, with this sizzling sound. This is the meaning. Truly she was disgusted with her own husband because she finds fault with the sound of dry bamboo sticks, etc, being split by him day after day, and she spoke, making the abandoning of that equal to the abandoning of desire and hatred. Saa rukkhamuulamupagammaati saa aha.m suma"ngalamaataa vivitta.m rukkhamuula.m upasa"nkamitvaa. Sukhato jhaayaamiiti sukhanti jhaayaami, kaalena kaala.m samaapajjantii phalasukha.m nibbaanasukha~nca pa.tisa.mvediyamaanaa phalajjhaanena jhaayaamiiti attho. Aho sukhanti ida.m panassaa samaapattito pacchaa pavattamanasikaaravasena vutta.m, pubbaabhogavasenaatipi yujjateva. Suma"ngalamaatutheriigaathaava.n.nanaa ni.t.thitaa. I (saa) go to (upagammaa) the foot of a tree means: I (saa aha.m), the mother of Suma"ngala, having approaced (upasa"nkamitvaa) the foot of a secluded tree. [I] meditate upon it as happiness (sukhato) means: I meditate, thinking, "Happiness (sukhan)", and attaining it from time to time, I meditate by means of the fruition of meditative absorption, perceiving the happiness of quenching and the happiness of the fruition state. This is the meaning. [And thinking,] "O the happiness": now here, this is said because of her continued mental attention after her attainment of that and is also linked because of her previous reflection. Here ends the commentary on the verses by Therii Suma"ngalamaataa. ===== c. #68145 From: connie Date: Fri Feb 9, 2007 6:26 pm Subject: Are all the bad things that happen to us results of our deeds? nichiconn Dear Colette, It's been great meeting up with you at the library. Sure, my room's in the basement, too. But, SnA: kaayo hi raagaadiina.m vaa.lana.m vasanokaasato guhaa ti vuccati. : "The body is called 'a cave' because it is an opening and a dwelling for wild beasts such as lust and so on" -or- "...a room, a dwelling for kilesas" a line of verse: satto guhaaya.m bahunaabhichanno literally: attached, in the cave, covered with much i'm afraid getting into setting up "the displays" proper is beyond me right now... too much murk in my cup. Disclosure: <<414. (2) Now when ignorance is a condition, by immediate-proximity-conditionality, for determinations, and when there is the cognizance [called] "arisen" imediately proximate to that cognizance wherewith the ignorance was co-arisen, then the previous cognizance is a condition, by cause-conditionality, for the subsequent cognizance. Hence, ignorance being in virtue of that previous cognizance the cause of arising [of the subsequent], no knowledge arises [with the latter] because it has no opportunity made for it. Since its element of diligence is drenched by ignorance, hence the perversions arise, [taking it] that there is beauty in the ugly, that there is pleasure in the painful, [etc.]. 415. Herein, the determinations that arise are choice in one affected by lust, by hate, and by delusion, [respectively] through obsession (§410) by lust, through obsession by hate, or through obsession by delusion. The Perversion of View is demonstrable in the demonstration of the [four] grounds [for perversion (see §§479ff.)]. In as much as one with perverted cognizance cognizes, this is the Perversion of Cognizance. In as much as perverted perception apprehends, this is the Perversion of Perception. And in as much as the perverted view insists, this is the Perversion of View (cf. §483). 416. [107] Then the eight Wrongnesses increase, and in the unreasoned attention the three Unprofitable [Roots] make wrong knowledge and wrong deliverance (?) arise. In this way and no other (?) do unprofitable determinations come successively (?) to maturity and abundance. And being mainly unpenetrated, they are determinations that bring renewal of being. >> Thought that might go nicely with the piece from your collection: << ...Vasubandhu did not deny the efficacy of things and actions, but argued that efficacy is exactly prompted by perception-only without necessarily relying on an external object as its cause. >> best wishes, connie #68146 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Feb 9, 2007 1:53 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Some Thoughts on the Sectarians Sutta (AN 3.61) upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 2/9/07 8:10:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, ken_aitch@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > I am out of my depth with the Tittha Sutta; I don't know if it deals > with all sectarian guilds or just three of them. I think that it > might be the latter, and that they are the sectarian guilds that side > with annihilationism. > ------------------------------------ Howard: You may be right. (I'm not too sure about the theists. Their God belief is a kind of displaced atta-belief, with the Almighty as a self-surrogate.) ---------------------------------- If I am right, there could be a complimentary > > sutta that deals with eternalist sectarian guilds. However, they > might be referred to as being `"swept away" in a doctrine of action.' ---------------------------------- Howard: Yes, good. Two extremes, each away from the middle way. --------------------------------- > If you recall the Ogha Sutta (which we both like) you might find that > striving leads to being swept away, while standing still leads to > sinking (being stuck?). > ------------------------------ Howard: Yes, indeed! (And how nice that we both like it! :-) ------------------------------ Who knows how it applies to the Tittha Sutta? > > I am only guessing. > > What I do know is that (according to the texts) the Buddha's > proclamation of the Dhamma was an event of literally cosmos-shaking > proportions (the devas' voices rang out and shook the cosmos). So, > whenever I hear a teaching that is ordinary, or commonplace, I feel > sure it is not the real thing. ------------------------------- Howard: Or a stepped-down version, or a supportive but not ultimate teaching. You know, you and I are not so "advanced" that we can't benefit from "lesser" teachings. And we may just be fooling ourselves when we think we really "get" the ultimate teachings. It helps to remember how lowly we actually are, I think. -------------------------------- > > In this sutta, the Buddha rules out three possibilities. They are > that everything is the result of the past, that everything is the > creation of Almighty God, and that everything is the result of blind > chance. ------------------------------- Howard: As regards the past, I think it may not be so much in terms of the past in general including all previously occuring phenomena, but more restrictively in terms of ones *own* kamma. -------------------------------- > > What other possibility could there be? > > I think if we are going to have the right attitude for hearing the > Dhamma we must be ready to hear something amazingly new and > completely different from anything we already know. > > ----------- > >"Monks, there are these three sectarian guilds that <>when cross- > examined, pressed for reasons, &rebuked by wise people <>even > though they may explain otherwise, remain stuck in [a doctrine of] > inaction." > > Howard: > > I find my attention gotten when I see something about a > doctrine of inaction calling for rebuke by the wise. > ------------- > > Yes, but I think the point being made in the sutta is, "Those are the > only three possibilities known to uninstructed worldlings (or is it > to the annihilationists among us?): They know of no other way. > Whether they admit to it or not, they all subscribe to a doctrine of > inaction. > > I think you will agree that sectarian guilds devoted to Almighty God > (for example) can be very active – praying, teaching, helping the > poor and so on – so, even though they "explain otherwise" as the > sutta says, they are ultimately stuck in inaction. --------------------------------- Howard: Yes, I agree. -------------------------------- > > --------------------- > <. . .> > "When one falls back on what was > done in the past as being essential, monks, there is no desire, no > effort [at the thought], 'This should be done. This shouldn't be > done.'" > > > Howard: > That is a *condemnation* of being unable to "pin down as a > truth or reality what should &shouldn't be done", such inability > leaving one "bewildered &unprotected". The point is that one > properly should know clearly exactly what to do and what not to do so > that intentional action is *not* paralyzed. > ----------------------- > > Yes, but what does it mean at a deep, non-commonplace, level? I think > it means that the world is simply a moment of fleeting conditioned > paramattha dhammas, and we should learn to know those dhammas as they > truly are. That would include knowing which dhammas are Path Factors > (leading to the end of suffering), and which are not. > > Ken H > > ======================= With metta, Howard #68147 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Feb 9, 2007 9:23 pm Subject: The Endless Round! bhikkhu5 Friends: Blinded by Ignorance & Driven on by Craving! The Blessed Buddha once said: There will come a time, Bhikkhus & Friends, when all the mighty oceans will evaporate, dry up, vanish, and exist no more... But there will be no end of Suffering for beings who, blinded by Ignorance and obsessed by Craving, are hurrying and hastening through this samsaric round of endless rebirths...This I tell you! There comes a time, when this mighty planet earth will explode in a gigantic burst of fire, be completely destroyed, & exist no more... But there will be no end of Misery for beings who, obstructed by Ignorance and addicted by Craving, are hurrying, even running and hastening from birth to repeated death in this round of rebirths... This I explain to you! Source: Grouped Discourses of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya SN 22:99 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html For details on this Round of Rebirths: Samsara see: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/DPPN/wtb/s_t/samsaara.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/Samsara.htm Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Ceylon * <...> #68148 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Fri Feb 9, 2007 11:03 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Some Thoughts on the Sectarians Sutta (AN 3.61) ken_aitch Hi Howard and Connie, ---------- KH: > I am out of my depth with the Tittha Sutta; I don't know if it deals > with all sectarian guilds or just three of them. I think that it > might be the latter, and that they are the sectarian guilds that side > with annihilationism. Howard: > You may be right. (I'm not too sure about the theists. Their God belief is a kind of displaced atta-belief, with the Almighty as a self-surrogate.) ----------- Yes, that makes sense. I think theists can be either eternalists or annihilationists – depending on what they believe will happen to them after death. In any case, all non-Buddhist understanding of the world comes down to atta belief of one kind or the other. ----------------- KH: > > If I am right, there could be a complimentary > > sutta that deals with eternalist sectarian guilds. However, they > might be referred to as being `"swept away" in a doctrine of action.' Howard: > Yes, good. Two extremes, each away from the middle way. ----------------- Thanks. My idea has some logic to it, but I would not be surprised to find out it was wrong. In this sutta the word `inaction' could be very different to `standing still' in the Ogha Sutta. It could refer to a lack of progress on the Path. In that case, the three sectarian guilds could include both eternalists and annihilationists. I think it was Connie who found this sutta, wasn't it? She will tell us! :-) ----------------- KH: >> So, > whenever I hear a teaching that is ordinary, or commonplace, I feel > sure it is not the real thing. Howard: > Or a stepped-down version, or a supportive but not ultimate teaching. You know, you and I are not so "advanced" that we can't benefit from "lesser" teachings. ----------------- I am sure we do all the time. I remember, for example, Sarah (on list about three years ago) giving me a tip for overcoming fear of public speaking. She said to project metta to every member of the audience. (!) :-) But that sort of thing is different from formal practice, isn't it? It doesn't involve any misconceptions about control over paramattha dhammas. Nor does it involve belief in the genuineness of the "metta" I am projecting for my own selfish purposes. It is just a conventional teaching for conventional purposes. ------------- H: > And we may just be fooling ourselves when we think we really "get" the ultimate teachings. It helps to remember how lowly we actually are, I think. ------------- We must spend more time at DSG! :-) Ken H #68149 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Feb 9, 2007 11:27 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (17) sarahprocter... Hi Scott, Connie, all, --- Scott Duncan wrote: > Dear Sisters-Enthusiasts, > > "One day, after going on her food round, on coming back to her > dwelling, she fell down, and making that her support [for > contemplation], she made her insight to grow and attained Arahatship > together with the [four] discriminations. And she spoke this verse as > her solemn utterance: > > 17. "Pi.n.dapaata.m caritvaana, da.n.damolubbha dubbalaa; > vedhamaanehi gattehi, tattheva nipati.m chamaa; > disvaa aadiinava.m kaaye, atha citta.m vimucci me"ti.-" > > I like how such ordinary events can serve as support for the > liberating growth of insight. This is shown over and over again. .... S: Yes! I found this one very touching and lovely: "I wandered for alms, leaning on a stick, weak. With trembling hands, I fell to the ground in that very spot. Seeing peril in the body, then my mind was completely released." S: Anytime, any place, any moment thre are dhammas which can be understood for what they are and insight can arise if the developed wisdom and awareness have been sufficiently accumulated. The only obstacle to the path is ignorance. Metta, Sarah ======== #68150 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Feb 9, 2007 11:55 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sincerity sarahprocter... Dear Scott & all, Sincerity - a good topic! --- Scott Duncan wrote: <...> > So I looked into it: > > It turns out, first - and this is Anatta 101 - that I can't do my > best, and for this I am sincerely sorry. And secondly, 'sincerity', > it appears, is a quality of citta and the cetasikaa. ... S: followed by all your great quotes on the 6 pairs, starting with 'rectitude'(kaaya- and citta-ujukataa). "...The straightness which there is on that occaskion, the rectitude, without deflection, twist or crookedness, of the khandhas....." [You might also like to consider/include reflections on sacca and sacca parami (truthfulness/sincerity). See 'sacca' in U.P. For example, from "Perfections": http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/21235 "Truthfulness is sincerity in the development of kusala to the degree of a perfection. If there is no truthfulness, no sincerity in one¹s actions, they cannot reach accomplishment. Sacca, truthfulness, is necessary for all kinds of kusala, be it dåna, síla or mental development. One should not neglect the development of any degree of kusala." Also involved are hiri and ottappa (moral shame and rectitude) which arise with each moment of kusala, panna and sati. .... > So, it would appear that, when these factors arise in a moment of > consciousness, this moment is endowed with what we self-afflicted ones > like to call 'sincerity'. Since these are 'of the aggregates and not > the person', I guess one will have to know them when one sees them. > May there be smoothness and rectitude. ... S: And this is why panna is so essential for the development of sincerity and truthfulness/rectitude. Thx again for sharing your helpful reflections. .... > "Sincerely", ... S: Likewise, Sincerely, Sarah ======= #68151 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Feb 10, 2007 12:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Theriigaathaa - Sisters sarahprocter... Hi Connie, Thx for the helpful lists. --- connie wrote: > ps. Inspiration from Enlightened Nuns - Susan Elbaum Jootla > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/jootla/wheel349.html .... S: Also 'Buddhist Women at the time of the Buddha', Hellmuth Hecker [wheel] 'Women Under Primitive Buddhism - Laywomen and Almswomen', I.B.Horner [BPS - quite a big book] 'Women in Early Buddhist Literature', I.B.Horner [wheel] (S: I haven't checked what is on-line). I like your textual installments the best. In any case, it's the panna that counts - it doesn't matter whether it's a woman or a man.....! Metta, Sarah ======== #68152 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Feb 10, 2007 12:43 am Subject: re: was: pa~n~natti and cohesion. A center. nilovg Dear Joel, I read your post and I find that you express your experiences in a very sincere and striking way: ------ J: i have been living in an ashram now in silence for quite a while, practicing over 12 hours a day. Just over a month ago, dhamma popped into my life and i can't be the same, can't follow the routine and rituals anymore. but how to just throw on the breaks like that? like i was speeding down the highway at 110 mph and all of a sudden, saw an exit for "right now, this very moment" and slammed on the breaks to turn off... --------- N: Something similar happened to Kh Sujin who used to go to a center. Then one day she realized that it was not necessary to be in a center to develop understanding of the present reality. From then on she stopped going there. There is seeing in a center and at home, no difference. Seeing right now has to be known but the development of understanding cannot be rapid. We have accumulated so much ignorance and personality belief (sakkaya ditthi) for aeons. If one goes to a certain place there is always delay of developing understanding right now. Even thinking of wanting to go somewhere should be known: it may be desire. Seeing may seem to be so clear in a center, but is that true? We have to be very sincere. ------- J: i was just listening to the Bankok recordings earlier this morning, when they were discussing the subtle craving of the anagami to become an arahat... that it is still akusula, but that it is "o.k." ... what to do anyway if it is arising, if it is there. and they were questioning whether or not craving can serve as a condition for progress... ---------- N: I remember, there is tanhaa that is to be pursued. Also Netti pakarana (the Guide) refers to this and we discussed it before. It is a subtle point. The person who is about to attain arahatship must also be aware of this craving. Please. you can help others if you tell us more about your experiences. With appreciation, Nina. #68153 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Sat Feb 10, 2007 2:21 am Subject: Objects egberdina Hi all, Objects are said to arise and fall, around here. Voluminous texts are written based on that idea. That's all good. Only problem being, it ain't necessarily so. In fact, I was just being diplomatic, because it isn't so. The arising and falling of objects is a hoax. All comments welcome, but, please be nice :-) Herman #68154 From: melek cilingir Date: Sat Feb 10, 2007 2:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] re: was: pa~n~natti and cohesion. A center. melekcilingir dear nina, i also find joel's wiriting very sincere and interesting. N: ... "If one goes to a certain place there is always delay of developing understanding right now. Even thinking of wanting to go somewhere should be known: it may be desire." how decisive assertion is this. do you really mean always? and could you help me to understand the difference between "going to a center" and "going to a meeting with a teacher" (acharn sujin in this case) to develop understanding of dhamma? N: ... "The person who is about to attain arahatship must also be aware of this craving." please ignore my question if you were you talking about the person who is about to attain arahatship. with metta melek #68155 From: "Phil" Date: Sat Feb 10, 2007 2:28 am Subject: Re: About Mudita philofillet Hi again all > Ven. Thera: Not he who is depressed by grief, but one possessed of joy > finds that serene calmness leading to a contemplative state of mind. > And only a mind serene and collected is able to gain the liberating > wisdom. Thanks, Joop, for posting on this topic. I was thinking about it a lot today. It seems to me that the brahma-viharas tie in vere nicely with the acrobat simile sutta. We take care of others in order to to take care of ourselves, and take care of ourselves in order to take care others. I don't know if "take care" is the right phrase or not. When there is mudita, or metta for others, as conceptual objects (as people always are) there will be less angst/aversion/hostility/irritation, and less remorse from bad behaviour conditioned by the dosa. This allows us to settle into meditaiton more easily, which in turn allows us to get deeper and closer to the brahma-viharas. Therefore, I don't think we need to worry at the beginning whether it is really mudita, or just thinking with pleasant attachment. It steers us clear of harsh, unwholesome encounters, and the mind settles more easily in meditation. I think it's a very interesting dynamic. Cycling in, deeper and closer to true realization of paramattha dhammas, though others may question (are quite justified in questioning) whether this sort of thinking isn't just setting up a pleasant abiding in deluded practices. Metta (not the dhamma but feeling used strategically?) Phil #68156 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Feb 10, 2007 3:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Smiles & Laughs (was: Meditation (again)) sarahprocter... Hi Ken H, --- ken_aitch wrote: > My computer woes aren't really vipaka, are they? ... S: this is a rhetorical qu of course, because you go on to give the answer. Vipaka, as you know, refers to such brief moments of seeing, hearing, bodily experience and other momentary vipaka cittas. Most of what we are used to thinking of as vipaka are a mass of proliferations in which sanna plays a key role. So yes, we can talk about kamma-vipaka in a conventional every-day sense and in a much more precise ultimate sense. ... >There does seem to > be a recurring theme in my life in which mechanical devices fail to > work FOR NO APPARENT REASON! <...> .... S: You do seem to have had a bad run in this regard and we can certainly sympathise having gone through many similar experiences! The good news is that as we're reminded by the theriis, understanding of the dhammas can develop at any time - even in the midst of the most frustrating experience:-) And of course, it's the understanding that counts! ... > I know these stories are not vipaka. Vipaka is a fleeting moment of > consciousness - of seeing or hearing etc. There are suttas that seem > to connect kamma stories with vipaka stories, but they are not to be > understood in the conventional sense. For example, there is a sutta > in which a crow flies into burning straw and dies painfully. The > Buddha explains that the crow had formerly been a farmer who burnt a > cow to death. However, we must always remember the Buddha's warning > not to be caught out by conventional language. Vipaka is actually a > fleeting moment of paramattha dhammas. So is kamma. But the two are > connected. They are connected in a way that is similar to the way the > story of a tortured cow is connected to the story of a suffering > crow. It's the sort of connection that, according to the > Commentaries, would be recognized by `the average merchant or local > official.' I think that was the point of the sutta. ..... S: Then there are all the reminders in the suttas such as the ones B.Samahita has been providing with regard to evil deeds and rebirths in hell etc (#68073 and more in U.P. under 'Kamma - Rebirth'. I think we can understand the general picture, the general connection with regard to good deeds bringing good results and bad deeds bringing bad results, but of course only a Buddha could tell us the precise connections which you refer to. I don't see any problem in the use of conventional language ' a tortured cow.....a suffering crow' etc - it's all shorthand as you suggest for intricate dhammas explained in other texts. ... > Enough rambling! Corrections and arguments welcome! ... S: Not from me! Metta, Sarah ======== #68157 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Feb 10, 2007 3:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Idle Thoughts on Nothing sarahprocter... Hi Howard, --- upasaka@... wrote: > > S: So the 'All' depends on the context of the sutta. In the Sabba > Sutta, > > only those dhammas presently arising can be known as the 'All'. It > doesn't > > include all those dhammas outside of experience, knowable by a > Buddha's > > omniscience. > > > > Also, unless nibbana is being experienced now, it is not included. But > at > > moments of enlightenment it is included in the All as 'dhammaayatana'. > > > ======================= >H: The foregoing strikes me as an attempt to avoid the Buddha's > explicit > cautioning "Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe > > another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his > statement, > would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? > Because > it lies beyond range." .... S: What I wrote, particularly "In the Sabba Sutta, only those dhammas presently arising can be known as the 'All'" indicates clearly that this is it - all that can be known. Just the dhammas included in the ayatanas - i.e presently arising cittas, cetasikas and rupas. Naturally, a Buddha's 'All' is another matter. I have no idea why this would suggest to you any avoidance of the Buddha's comments above. The 'All' at this moment is just the world of seeing or hearing or thinking, for example. Nothing else. As you like to quote from the Bahiya Udana - just that which is seen appearing, or heard and so on. Metta, Sarah ========== #68158 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Feb 10, 2007 3:27 am Subject: Re: was: pa~n~natti and cohesion. A center. buddhatrue Hi Nina and Joel, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Joel, > I read your post and I find that you express your experiences in a > very sincere and striking way: > ------ > J: i have been > living in an ashram now in silence for quite a while, practicing > over 12 hours a day. Just over a month ago, dhamma popped into my > life and i can't be the same, can't follow the routine and rituals > anymore. but how to just throw on the breaks like that? like i was > speeding down the highway at 110 mph and all of a sudden, saw an > exit for "right now, this very moment" and slammed on the breaks to > turn off... > --------- > N: Something similar happened to Kh Sujin who used to go to a center. > Then one day she realized that it was not necessary to be in a center > to develop understanding of the present reality. From then on she > stopped going there. > There is seeing in a center and at home, no difference. Seeing right > now has to be known but the development of understanding cannot be > rapid. We have accumulated so much ignorance and personality belief > (sakkaya ditthi) for aeons. > If one goes to a certain place there is always delay of developing > understanding right now. Even thinking of wanting to go somewhere > should be known: it may be desire. > Seeing may seem to be so clear in a center, but is that true? We > have to be very sincere. Yeah, the Bhikkhu/Bhikkhuni Sangha is a complete waste of time...dangerous even!! Those bald-headed freaks don't know what they are doing- never have. Glad you have pointed this out. Your wisdom is astounding. James #68159 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Feb 10, 2007 3:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Inauthenticity of Anupada Sutta, MN111 sarahprocter... Hi James, --- buddhatrue wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott > wrote: > > > S: On the question of authenticity, in the end, it'll just come down > to > > any understanding developed to date, I think. ... >J: I don't understand what you mean. .... S: For example, there's always lots of controversy about whether it would have been possible for Sariputta to flit between jhanas and the highest insight/enlightenment whilst fanning the Buddha, if I recall. From an understanding of Abhidhamma perspective which details the speed of such changing cittas, none of this is an issue. But for those who have a different understanding to date of what jhana and enlightenment involve, it may not seem plausible. Metta, Sarah ========== #68160 From: "Phil" Date: Sat Feb 10, 2007 4:47 am Subject: Re: was: pa~n~natti and cohesion. A center. philofillet Hi Nina > If one goes to a certain place there is always delay of developing > understanding right now. Even thinking of wanting to go somewhere > should be known: it may be desire. > Seeing may seem to be so clear in a center, but is that true? We > have to be very sincere. It's become very clear to me from listening to other teachers that there is nothing whatsoever wrong with desire related to Dhamma. Wanting to achieve something through meditation is not faulted by the Buddha. Indeed, he urges monks and householders to meditate, and if the Buddha urges us to do something and we don't have desire to do it that would be rather sad. That seems so clear to me now. It should also be questioned, I think, whether the minimal levels of samadhi needed for insight are possible outside a secluded setting. I'm thinking of momentary (khanica?) and access concentration. Acharn Sujin and you and others will say that they can arise in busy daily life, but I have not heard such a teaching anywhere else. Bhikkhu Bodhi, N. Thera, Thai forest masters such as Ajahn Chah and of course the Burmese Sayadaws teach that these grades of samadhi are to be developed in meditation. In a recorded talk on meditation (available in the Library of Congress(?) series of talks at the Bodhi Monastery website) Bhikkhu Bodhi explains that momentary samadhi is *not* referring to a single citta but samadhi that follows several objects subsequently. I think I know already what your explanation will be, but I would just like to point out that other teachers don't teach it that way. Of course there are inspirational anecdotes in the ancient texts of such insight arising in daily life (for example, the sister who burned her dinner) so there must have been momentary samadhi there and perhaps the only reason I have not heard any teacher talk of it is that the question didn't come up. Perhaps it is possible that momentary concentration could arise in daily life. I'd just like to register the doubt I have about that now. I have heard someone say right concentration is easy because there is samma samadhi with every kusala citta but I don't think this samadhi is the khanica samadhi or access samadhi that are the minimal pre-conditions for insight. I'm sure you've been through this a billion times so not to worry but in the interest of truthfulness I'd like to register this little protest! Why? Earlier I posted and said "let's have mudita for other's confidence in the Dhamma. So why post this? I don't know. A momentary urge. There weren't conditions for mudita to rule out! :) I write a :) because it always makes me happy to remember that things are conditioned and don't work according to plan. It also makes me :) to remember that we can have a huge influence on these conditions by following the Buddha's recommended practices. Metta, Phil #68161 From: "Joop" Date: Sat Feb 10, 2007 5:03 am Subject: Distances (Was: Re: About Mudita jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > Hi Joop and all > > Mudita is there for the having. Not so easy though, come to think > of it. Hallo Phil, all In a way you are right. There is distance between Theravada and me so that I cannot discuss within its frame of reference. I have that idea already a longer time. For that reason I take some distance from DSG; (not as a reaction to your message). Don't know for how long. Metta Joop #68162 From: "Phil" Date: Sat Feb 10, 2007 5:26 am Subject: Distances (Was: Re: About Mudita philofillet Hi Joop I'm sure like me and I'm sure like others here you have found thoughts about DSG popping up an awful lot during meditation, and posts being written in your head and things like that. An internet discussion group should never be allowed to become a constant source of distraction, should it? I think this is a way mudita helps, we can just let people believe what they believe. Easier said than done, as I just demonstrated in another thread. So periods of distance sounds wise. Anways, good luck and don't go too far away. Keep noting that abdomen rising and falling! :) (I think you do Mahasi Sayadaw style meditation too - actually, as Nyanaponika Thera calls it, Burmese Satipatthana Method, since it was not developed by Mahasi Sayadaw.) Metta, Phil > > > > Mudita is there for the having. Not so easy though, come to think > > of it. > > Hallo Phil, all > > In a way you are right. > There is distance between Theravada and me so that I cannot discuss > within its frame of reference. > I have that idea already a longer time. > For that reason I take some distance from DSG; (not as a reaction to > your message). > Don't know for how long. #68163 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Feb 10, 2007 5:50 am Subject: [dsg] Re: 'We are here to learn the dhamma' scottduncan2 Hi Herman, Sorry, I missed this wee post: Me: "Again, yes. There is no need to misunderstand these processes and think to create a 'practise' out of them, such as purposive recollection and reflection or concentrated focus with the aim being to make something else happen." H: "The following came to mind when I read your 'there is no need to ....'. Is there ever a case when there is a need to ......? Just curious." Hmm. A need to misunderstand? A need to 'create' a practise? A need to 'make something happen'? I'm not sure, Herman. What do you think? Sincerely, Scott. #68164 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Feb 10, 2007 6:47 am Subject: A cremation, just like now! nilovg Dear Sarah and friends, you wrote to me off line; Lodewijk still had uneasiness about the fact that when we asked: 'How was Kh Charupan's cremation' KH Sujin answered; just like now, seeing, hearing.' He found this so harsh, it seemed an approach without kindness, we are humans after all, living in this world together with our fellowmen. He kept those strong feelings but today there was a happening. We had to go to a cremation of a colleague of us. We were sitting in the hall and listening to the speeches of a pastor and others. There were enough realities to consider at that time: seeing, hearing just sound, and then thinking of the meaning of the words that were spoken, cold. This is pariyatti, but pariyatti is not merely theoretical understanding. It is considering the reality of the present moment.This is the way to learn. Afterwards we were standing in a long queue to walk past the coffin. I said to Lodewijk: it is just like now: there is seeing, hearing, what else can we do but considering these realities. But this is not cold, harsh, unfriendly at all. Lodewijk said to me that he was thinking exactly the same at those moments we were sitting there and listening, and that Kh Sujin was absolutely right. There are seeing, hearing, thinking and kusala citta can arise with a degree of understanding these realities. How could that be unkind? We were considering realities and we felt kindness towards the family and all people present. Different types of kusala, and how could these be contradictory. In Kaeng Kracang she had explained that what she had said about the cremation was just a reminder: there are seeing, hearing and all realities; we can be reminded of realities no matter where we are or in which circumstances. Lodewijk asked me what characteristics are. I said that dosa has a characteristic different from lobha. We do not have to learn this from books. Right at the moment they arise their characteristics can be directly known, without having to think about them. Sati of satipatthana has as object: one characteristic of a reality at a time as it appears through one of the six doors. We often speak about what sati is, he finds it very difficult. But it is difficult for all of us. I transcribed the K.K. talks and I am reading parts at lunchtime. ***** Nina. #68165 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Feb 10, 2007 1:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Objects upasaka_howard Hi, Herman - In a message dated 2/10/07 5:22:16 AM Eastern Standard Time, hhofmeister@... writes: > Hi all, > > Objects are said to arise and fall, around here. Voluminous texts are > written based on that idea. That's all good. Only problem being, it > ain't necessarily so. In fact, I was just being diplomatic, because it > isn't so. The arising and falling of objects is a hoax. > > All comments welcome, but, please be nice :-) > > Herman > =================== Here's a comment - hopefully "nice"! ;-)) What do *you* mean by "rise" and "fall"? And why do you think they don't occur? Without your saying more, it is unclear to me exactly what it is you are saying you don't believe! ;-) To me, the situation of a specific phenomenon (say a hardness sensation) not now existing but later existing may be called the arising of that phenomenon, and the opposite may be called the falling of it. I don't presume a xero-duration point of arising (or appearing) and one of falling (or disappearing). I do think the idea of a period of increase easing into one of stabilization and then into one of decrease is a pretty darn good one. If that is in fact the way phenomena come and go, then rising and falling would correspond to the first and third of these periods. With metta, Howard #68166 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Feb 10, 2007 2:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Idle Thoughts on Nothing upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 2/10/07 6:26:36 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > S: What I wrote, particularly "In the Sabba Sutta, only those dhammas > presently arising can be known as the 'All'" indicates clearly that this > is it - all that can be known. Just the dhammas included in the ayatanas - > i.e presently arising cittas, cetasikas and rupas. Naturally, a Buddha's > 'All' is another matter. > ========================= In the Sabba Sutta, the Buddha never restricts the category of persons he is referring to. He never says this pertains to worldlings. He seems to say that this "All" is literally ALL. From my perspective, "the All" misperceived is samsara, and "the All" correctly perceived is nibbana.In any case, the gist of this sutta, it seems to me, is a pragmatic-phenomenalist one that asserts that whatever is claimed to exist beyond experience "lies beyond range" and should not be considered as existent, i.e. as part of the "All". With metta, Howard #68167 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Feb 10, 2007 7:33 am Subject: Re: Some Thoughts on the Sectarians Sutta (AN 3.61) scottduncan2 Dear Howard, All, Thanks for bringing this sutta for study. I was wondering a few things (probably tangential to the main discussion) about the nuances of words and translational bias. Thanissaro Bhikkhu gives the passage as follows: "...'There are these six properties' is a Dhamma taught by me that is unrefuted, undefiled, blameless, not faulted by knowledgeable priests and contemplatives': Thus was it said. And in reference to what was it said? These are the six properties: earth-property, liquid-property, fire-property, wind-property, space-property, consciousness-property...." Bhikkhu Bodhi gives it thusly: "...'These are the six elements' - that is the Dhamma taught by me, which is unrefuted...by intelligent ascetics and brahmins...Now on account of what was it said that the six elements are the Dhamma taught by me? These are the six elements: the elements of earth, water, heat, air, space and consciousness..." Howard: "IMO, 'quality' might have been a translation preferable to 'property'." The Paali: "...Imaa cha dhaatuyoti, bhikkhave, mayaa dhammo desito aniggahito asa.mkilit.t.ho anupavajjo appa.tiku.t.tho same.nehi braahma.nehi vi~n~nuuti. Iti kho paneta.m vutta.m. Ki~nceta.m pa.ticca vutta.m? Chayimaa, bhikkhave, dhaatuyo - pathaviidhaatu, aapodhaatu, tejodhaatu, vaayodhaatu, aakaasadhaatu, vi~n~naa.nadhaatu..." I think that 'property' and 'quality' are essentially synonymous, both referring to an attribute of something. Here I think one might consider 'own nature' to be relevant, (except that Howard, I doubt you are referring to this since you don't seem to care for that particular way of seeing things). The commentary (Bh. Bodhi, Note 40): "'Hereby reference is made to the meditation subject of the elements (dhaatu-kamma.t.thaana). Taking it by way of the six elements, a brief explanation is as follows: The elements of earth, water, fire, and air are the four primary material elements (mahaa-bhuuta). The element of space represents 'derived' or secondary form (upaadaa-ruupa). When this single item of derived form is mentioned, the other types of derived form (i.e. the sense faculties and their objects etc.) are therby implied. The element of consciousness (vi~n~naa.nadhaatu) is mind (citta) or the aggregate of consciousness (vi~n~naa.nakhandha). The coexistent feeling is the aggregate of feeling; the coexistent perception, the aggregate of perception; the coexistent contact and volition, the aggregates of volitional formations. These are the four mental aggregates; the four primaries and the form derived from them are the aggregate of form. The four mental aggregates are 'name' (or 'mentality', naama) and the aggregates of form is 'form' (or matter, ruupa). Thus there are only these two things: name and form (naamaruupa). Beyond that, there is neither substantial being (satta) nor a soul (jiiva). In this way one should understand in brief the meditation subject of the six elements that leads up to arahantship.' In a similar way, the other classifications given in the sutta are elaborated in AA, as a preparation for the practise of analytical insight." But why are these ('quality' or 'property') preferable to 'element'? Element is the word I've seen used most often to refer to 'dhaatu'. One can see in the Paali that the 'elements' are being referred to (pathaviidhaatu, aapodhaatu, tejodhaatu, vaayodhaatu, aakaasadhaatu, vi~n~naa.nadhaatu). What might the differences in meaning to be derived from a reading based on 'property' or 'quality' versus 'element'? Why would the sense of 'natural condition' or 'property' be preferrable to the sense of 'primary element'? Sincerely, Scott. #68168 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Feb 10, 2007 7:36 am Subject: was pa~n~natti... a center. nilovg Dear Melek, I appreciate your straightforward questions. It is really the kind of questions I like. --------- M: i also find joel's wiriting very sincere and interesting. N: ... "If one goes to a certain place there is always delay of developing understanding right now. Even thinking of wanting to go somewhere should be known: it may be desire." --------- M: how decisive assertion is this. do you really mean always? ------- N: It is by conditions that we are in such or such situation: there is noise with many people around or it is very silent while we are on a walk in nature. Should we not accept the conditions that offer themselves already? If we think: no, no, first we should do this, or do that, I call that delay. Read my post on the cremation: in such surroundings we are reminded of death. I considered this morning that I am still alive and have an opportunity to develop more understanding of the dhammas that appear. Each moment is right, it is precious. It should not be wasted. ------- M: and could you help me to understand the difference between "going to a center" and "going to a meeting with a teacher" (acharn sujin in this case) to develop understanding of dhamma? -------- N: The question is: with whom do we associate? That is the first thing we have to find out for ourselves. Association with the right friend in Dhamma who explains the Dhamma is one of the essential conditions for enlightenment. It is not so much the going to this or that place, but the meeting with the right friends. Your next question will be: how do we know? We have to find out whether the teacher helps us to have more detachment from self. We cling so much to self but we do not realize such moments. Whether he or she helps us to understand the reality that presents itself now, in our daily life. Does he or she help us to know our defilements as conditioned realities? We may try to fight them but they have to be known as conditioned realities and then there will be less clinging to them as my dosa, my lobha. In clinging to them we make them into something very important. But they are just dhammas that pass. Does the teacher help us to develop our own understanding? That is the greatest gift. So, all these things we have to find out and verify for ourselves. Ouur past accumulations also move us into this direction or into another direction. It is all conditioned. May you find the best opportunity to develop understanding of the dhammas that appear. Nina. #68169 From: "joelaltman26" Date: Sat Feb 10, 2007 9:03 am Subject: Re: was pa~n~natti... a center. joelaltman26 N: It is by conditions that we are in such or such situation: there is noise with many people around or it is very silent while we are on a walk in nature. Should we not accept the conditions that offer themselves already? J: is it not also by conditions that one finds oneself in a center or in some form of retreat? what are the difference between the conditions that lead someone to work at McDonalds or to become a monk in some forest tradition? are they not both the result of different accumulations? we already are where we are, in a sense. so is the idea not to become aware this very moment, where we are, whether that is in a center or not? and even the concept of center... is not every environment a center that focuses on the "intentional" development of some aspect of relationship with reality? for example... a place of work like in a office building, or in a shopping mall or supermarket, in a movie theater, in a dining room or living room? does each "environment" have its own inherent intended purpose and function, and become thus a center for whatever activity it was designed for? if so, then why would we reject specifically the centers that have formed in order to intentionally develop dhamma, other than because of the subtle (or not so subtle) craving and attachment to our wrong views about proper practice and conditions in order to develop dhamma. can this view not arise in all contexts? (maybe this is why it is ok for sotapannas to live in centers, because they have eradicated the anatta views along with wrong practice... or is it not ok?) in other words... if one is aware of right practice, what difference does it make what center one is in, if we cannot escape being in some form of center or intentional environment? metta, j #68170 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sat Feb 10, 2007 3:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Objects TGrand458@... In a message dated 2/10/2007 3:22:14 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, hhofmeister@... writes: Hi all, Objects are said to arise and fall, around here. Voluminous texts are written based on that idea. That's all good. Only problem being, it ain't necessarily so. In fact, I was just being diplomatic, because it isn't so. The arising and falling of objects is a hoax. All comments welcome, but, please be nice :-) Herman Hi Herman I agree with Howard, this question has too little information to know what you are trying to get at. It sounds like a "trap" question where you may be working an angle that "there are no objects" therefore "objects" do not arise and fall. Or, perhaps the concepts "rise and fall" are the crux of your post. Or Both. In my view, there is continuous change. Since the "rise" of "new" phenomena only happens in coincidence with and based on the "fall" of "other/old" phenomena; who's to say wether something has really "arisen," or just the continuous change of states has unfolded the present conditions. "Rise and fall" are just conceptual ways to view conditionality. In the Visuddhimagga, deeper levels of insight are said to focus on just the "fall" of phenomena. This approach brings forth a more comprehensive Dukkha outlook and hence raises the level of detachment. We can see all states as being a continuous "fall," and the so-called rising being just the residue of that falling. TG #68171 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Feb 10, 2007 4:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Some Thoughts on the Sectarians Sutta (AN 3.61) upasaka_howard Hi, Scott - In a message dated 2/10/07 10:35:41 AM Eastern Standard Time, scduncan@... writes: > Dear Howard, All, > > Thanks for bringing this sutta for study. I was wondering a few > things (probably tangential to the main discussion) about the nuances > of words and translational bias. Thanissaro Bhikkhu gives the passage > as follows: > > "...'There are these six properties' is a Dhamma taught by me that is > unrefuted, undefiled, blameless, not faulted by knowledgeable priests > and contemplatives': Thus was it said. And in reference to what was it > said? These are the six properties: earth-property, liquid-property, > fire-property, wind-property, space-property, consciousness-property...." > > Bhikkhu Bodhi gives it thusly: > > "...'These are the six elements' - that is the Dhamma taught by me, > which is unrefuted...by intelligent ascetics and brahmins...Now on > account of what was it said that the six elements are the Dhamma > taught by me? These are the six elements: the elements of earth, > water, heat, air, space and consciousness..." > > Howard: "IMO, 'quality' might have been a translation preferable to > 'property'." > > The Paali: > > "...Imaa cha dhaatuyoti, bhikkhave, mayaa dhammo desito aniggahito > asa.mkilit.t.ho anupavajjo appa.tiku.t.tho same.nehi braahma.nehi > vi~n~nuuti. Iti kho paneta.m vutta.m. Ki~nceta.m pa.ticca vutta.m? > Chayimaa, bhikkhave, dhaatuyo - pathaviidhaatu, aapodhaatu, > tejodhaatu, vaayodhaatu, aakaasadhaatu, vi~n~naa.nadhaatu..." > > I think that 'property' and 'quality' are essentially synonymous, both > referring to an attribute of something. Here I think one might > consider 'own nature' to be relevant, (except that Howard, I doubt you > are referring to this since you don't seem to care for that particular > way of seeing things). ----------------------------------------- Howard: I guess the most standard translation of 'dhatu' IS 'element'. But I find it misleading. As for difference in meaning between 'element', 'property', and 'quality', I see the difference being one of connotation or nuance, with them ranging from an objectivist/externalist sense in 'element' to a subjectivist/experientialist sense in 'quality', so, in terms of increasing phenomenalist connotation, I see the relationship of 'element' < 'property' < 'quality'. ----------------------------------------- > > The commentary (Bh. Bodhi, Note 40): > > "'Hereby reference is made to the meditation subject of the elements > (dhaatu-kamma.t.thaana). Taking it by way of the six elements, a > brief explanation is as follows: The elements of earth, water, fire, > and air are the four primary material elements (mahaa-bhuuta). The > element of space represents 'derived' or secondary form > (upaadaa-ruupa). When this single item of derived form is mentioned, > the other types of derived form (i.e. the sense faculties and their > objects etc.) are therby implied. > -------------------------------------- Howard: Sounds like a chemistry lesson! ;-) -------------------------------------- The element of consciousness> > (vi~n~naa.nadhaatu) is mind (citta) or the aggregate of consciousness > (vi~n~naa.nakhandha). The coexistent feeling is the aggregate of > feeling; the coexistent perception, the aggregate of perception; the > coexistent contact and volition, the aggregates of volitional > formations. These are the four mental aggregates; the four primaries > and the form derived from them are the aggregate of form. The four > mental aggregates are 'name' (or 'mentality', naama) and the > aggregates of form is 'form' (or matter, ruupa). Thus there are only > these two things: name and form (naamaruupa). Beyond that, there is > neither substantial being (satta) nor a soul (jiiva). In this way one > should understand in brief the meditation subject of the six elements > that leads up to arahantship.' In a similar way, the other > classifications given in the sutta are elaborated in AA, as a > preparation for the practise of analytical insight." > > But why are these ('quality' or 'property') preferable to 'element'? ----------------------------------------- Howard: I don't like the "thing" connotation I read into 'element'. I take an experiential-event perspective instead. I'm wary of "things", as they suggest true and static self-existence to me. This is why I don't like 'element'. This is my preference only - I'm not claiming an absolute here. ------------------------------------------- > Element is the word I've seen used most often to refer to 'dhaatu'. ------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes. The thing is, 'dhatu' and 'dhamma' are virtual synonyms, and 'dhamma' doesn't denote a "thing" having a quality (lakkhana), but is indistinguishable from that quality. A dhamma "holds its own characteristic" in the sense of not being anything other than that characteristic, as I understand it. Childers' dictionary gives "nature, condition, quality, property, characteristic" as the lead meanings for 'dhammo'. ------------------------------------------- > One can see in the Paali that the 'elements' are being referred to > (pathaviidhaatu, aapodhaatu, tejodhaatu, vaayodhaatu, aakaasadhaatu, > vi~n~naa.nadhaatu). > > What might the differences in meaning to be derived from a reading > based on 'property' or 'quality' versus 'element'? Why would the > sense of 'natural condition' or 'property' be preferrable to the sense > of 'primary element'? > Sincerely, > > Scott. > ========================= With metta, Howard #68172 From: connie Date: Sat Feb 10, 2007 10:09 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (22) nichiconn Dear Friends, part 1: A.d.dhakaasitheriigaathaava.n.nanaa / The commentary on the verses by Therii A.d.dhakaasii Yaava kaasijanapadoti-aadikaa a.d.dhakaasiyaa theriyaa gaathaa. Aya.m kira kassapassa dasabalassa kaale kulagehe nibbattitvaa vi~n~nuta.m patvaa bhikkhuniina.m santika.m gantvaa dhamma.m sutvaa pa.tiladdhasaddhaa pabbajitvaa bhikkhunisiile .thita.m a~n~natara.m pa.tisambhidaappatta.m khii.naasavattheri.m ga.nikaavaadena akkositvaa, tato cutaa niraye paccitvaa The verses beginning [My wages of prostitution were] as large as the [revenue of the] country of Kaasi are Therii A.d.dhakaasii's. Now this [therii] was reborn in a [good] family during the time of Kassapa of the Ten Powers. When she came of age, she went to the bhikkhuniis and heard the Doctrine. She gained faith, went forth, and stood firm in the virtuous conduct of the bhikkhuniis. She abused another [bhikkhunii], a therii who had destroyed all her taints and who had attained the [four] discriminations, calling her a prostitute*. Then when she died she was cooked in hell. [*R-D: Cf Ps xlvi (Bhaddaa Ku.n.dalakesaa) ] imasmi.m buddhuppaade kaasikara.t.the u.laaravibhave se.t.thikule nibbattitvaa vuddhippattaa pubbe katassa vaciiduccaritassa nissandena .thaanato paribha.t.thaa ga.nikaa ahosi. Naamena a.d.dhakaasii naama. Tassaa pabbajjaa ca duutena upasampadaa ca khandhake aagataayeva. Vutta~nheta.m- In this Buddha era she was reborn in the family of a rich merchant of the kingdom of Kaasi. When she grew up, through the result of the bad verbal action done in the past, falling away from her position, she became a prostitute by the name of A.d.dhakaasii. Her going forth and her full ordination through a messenger has come down [to us] in the Khandhaka [section of the Book of the Discipline]. For it has been said: Tena kho pana samayena a.d.dhakaasii ga.nikaa bhikkhuniisu pabbajitaa hoti. Saa ca saavatthi.m gantukaamaa hoti "bhagavato santike upasampajjissaamii"ti. Assosu.m kho dhuttaa- "a.d.dhakaasii kira ga.nikaa saavatthi.m gantukaamaa"ti. Te magge pariyu.t.thi.msu. Assosi kho a.d.dhakaasii ga.nikaa "dhuttaa kira magge pariyu.t.thitaa"ti. Bhagavato santike duuta.m paahesi- "aha~nhi upasampajjitukaamaa, katha.m nu kho mayaa pa.tipajjitabban"ti? Atha kho bhagavaa etasmi.m nidaane etasmi.m pakara.ne dhammi.m katha.m katvaa bhikkhuu aamantesi- "anujaanaami, bhikkhave, duutenapi upasampaadetun"ti (cuu.lava. 430). Now at that time, the prostitute A.d.dhakaasii had gone forth among the bhikkhuniis, and she wanted to go to Saavatthi, thinking, "I will be ordained in the Blessed One's presence." Rogues [R-D: libertines] heard it said that the prostitute A.d.dhakaasii wanted to go to Saavatthi, and they lay in wait on the road. But the prostitute A.d.dhakaasii heard it said that the rogues were lying in wait on the road, and she sent a messenger to the Blessed One, saying: "I too want to ordain. How am I to set about it?" Then the Blessed One, at this time, on this occasion, gave a talk about the Doctrine and addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "I allow you, bhikkhus, to ordain even through a messenger." [R-D notes: < Vinaya Texts (S.B.E. xx.), iii., p. 360. (Pronounced 'Chul'la.') Benares was the capital of Kaasii. On the name A.d.dha Kaasii (lit., half-Kaasii), see op. cit., ii. 195, n. 2. > DPPN references Vin.ii.277 & says ] Eva.m laddhuupasampadaa pana vipassanaaya kamma.m karontii na cirasseva saha pa.tisambhidaahi arahatta.m paapu.ni. Tena vutta.m apadaane (apa. therii 2.4.168-183)- And having thus obtained ordination, she devoted herself to the gaining of insight and after a very short time attained Arahatship including the [four] discriminations. As it is said in the Apadaana: "Imamhi bhaddake kappe, brahmabandhu mahaayaso; kassapo naama gottena, uppajji vadata.m varo. "Tadaaha.m pabbajitvaana, tassa buddhassa saasane; sa.mvutaa paatimokkhamhi, indriyesu ca pa~ncasu. In this auspicious aeon, the Brahmaa Kinsman of Great Fame, Kassapa by name, the Best of Speakers, was born. At that time, I went forth during that Buddha's dispensation, and my five sense faculties were restrained through the Paatimokkha. "Matta~n~nunii ca asane, yuttaa jaagariyepi ca; vasantii yuttayogaaha.m, bhikkhuni.m vigataasava.m. "Akkosi.m du.t.thacittaaha.m, ga.niketi bha.ni.m tadaa; tena paapena kammena, nirayamhi apaccisa.m. And I was moderate and intent on watchfulness with regard to food, practising meditation. Then I was evil minded and reviled a bhikkhunii without taints. I said [to her], "You prostitute!" Because of that wicked deed I cooked in hell. "Tena kammaavasesena, ajaayi.m ga.nikaakule; bahusova paraadhiinaa, pacchimaaya ca jaatiya.m. "Kaasiisu se.t.thikulajaa, brahmacaariibalenaha.m; accharaa viya devesu, ahosi.m ruupasampadaa. Accordingly, through the remaining [effect of that] deed, I was repeatedly born in the household of prostitutes, dependent on others, and in my last birth, as a consequence of leading the holy life, I was born among the citizens of Kaasi in the home of a wealthy merchant. I was as beautiful as a celestial maiden among the devas. "Disvaana dassaniiya.m ma.m, giribbajapuruttame; ga.nikatte nivesesu.m, akkosanabalena me. "Saaha.m sutvaana saddhamma.m, buddhase.t.thena desita.m; pubbavaasanasampannaa, pabbaji.m anagaariya.m. "Taduupasampadatthaaya, gacchantii jinasantika.m; magge dhutte .thite sutvaa, labhi.m duutopasampada.m. "Sabbakamma.m parikkhii.na.m, pu~n~na.m paapa.m tatheva ca; sabbasa.msaaramutti.n.naa ga.nikatta~nca khepita.m. [The people] of the magnificent town of Giribbaja, seeing me, fair to behold, established me as a prostitute; that was the result of my abuse. I heard the true Doctrine taught by the Best of Buddhas. Due to the impressions left on my senses from the past, I went forth to the homeless state. Then I went towards the presence of the Conqueror for the sake of the higher ordination. Having heard that rogues were standing in the road, I obtained full ordination by messenger. All my deeds are consumed, both meritorious deeds and wicked deeds. I have crossed over all journeying on. I am rid of the state of being a prostitute. "Iddhiisu ca vasii homi, dibbaaya sotadhaatuyaa; cetopariya~naa.nassa, vasii homi mahaamune. "Pubbenivaasa.m jaanaami, dibbacakkhu visodhita.m; sabbaasavaparikkhii.naa, natthi daani punabbhavo. "Atthadhammaniruttiisu, pa.tibhaane tatheva ca; ~naa.na.m mama mahaaviira, uppanna.m tava santike. And I have mastery of the supernormal powers. By means of the divine ear element I have mastery of the knowledge of penetration of mind, O Great Sage. I know my previous lives. My divine eye has been purified. All my taints have been consumed. Now there is no renewed existence. And truly, O Great Hero, in your presence, knowledge has arisen in me of comprehension of meaning, states, and language. "Kilesaa jhaapitaa mayha.m {, bhavaa sabbe samuuhataa; naagiiva bandhana.m chetvaa, viharaami anaasavaa. "Svaagata.m vata me aasi, buddhase.t.thassa santike; tisso vijjaa anuppattaa, kata.m buddhassa saasana.m. "Pa.tisambhidaa catasso, vimokkhaapi ca a.t.thime; cha.labhi~n~naa sacchikataa,} kata.m buddhassa saasanan"ti. My defilements are burnt out, {all [future] births are completely destroyed. Having severed my bonds like an elephant, I live without taints. Welcome indeed was the presence of the Best of Buddhas to me. I have attained the three true knowledges. I have done the Buddha's teaching. The four discriminations and also the eight liberations are mine. I have realized the six direct knowledges.} I have done the Buddha's teaching. ===== to be continued, connie. #68173 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Feb 10, 2007 10:41 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily Life, Ch 24, no 1. Enlightenment. nilovg Dear friends, Chapter 24 Enlightenment One cannot attain enlightenment without having cultivated the right conditions. We read in the Kindred Sayings (V, Mahå-vagga, Book XI, Kindred Sayings on Streamwinning, chapter I, §5, Såriputta) about four conditions for becoming a sotåpanna (streamwinner). The sutta states: Now the venerable Såriputta went to see the Exalted One, and on coming to him saluted him and sat down at one side. To the venerable Såriputta so seated the Exalted One said this: `` `A limb of stream-winning! A limb of stream-winning!' is the saying, Såriputta. Tell me, Såriputta, of what sort is a limb of stream-winning.'' ``Lord, association with the upright is a limb of stream-winning. Hearing the good Dhamma is a limb of stream-winning. Applying the mind is a limb of stream-winning. Conforming to the Dhamma is a limb of stream-winning.'' ``Well said, Såriputta! Well said, Såriputta! Indeed these are limbs of stream-winning. Now again, Såriputta, they say: `The stream! The stream!' Of what sort is the stream, Såriputta?'' ``The stream, lord, is just this ariyan eightfold way, to wit: Right view, right thought, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration.'' ``Well said, Såriputta! Well said, Såriputta! The stream is just this ariyan eightfold way. Now again, Såriputta, they say, `Streamwinner! Streamwinner!' Of what sort is a streamwinner, Såriputta?'' ``Whosoever, lord, is blessed with this ariyan eightfold way--such an one of such a name, of such and such a clan, is called `Streamwinner'.'' The first condition, association with the righteous person, is most important. It would not be possible to find the right path by oneself. Only Buddhas have accumulated such wisdom that they can find the Path by themselves, without the help of a teacher. Other people, however, need the teachings of a Buddha in order to find the right path, because ignorance has been accumulated for an endlessly long time. We need association with the right person, the good friend in Dhamma, who can point out to us the right path, because our defilements prevent us from finding the right path. Our friend in Dhamma can encourage us to develop right understanding of nåma and rúpa. ****** Nina. #68174 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Feb 10, 2007 10:47 am Subject: Letters on Vipassana, 7, no 3 nilovg Dear friends, The study of the Dhamma is never lost, because the understanding acquired from it is accumulated, even from life to life. If we in a next life can listen to the Dhamma again there are conditions to understand the Dhamma more deeply. It is beneficial to know about the different cittas which arise in processes because this is our daily life. As Khun Sujin said, we study in order to know this moment. We should not forget the goal of our study: detachment from the idea of self by right understanding. This understanding eventually leads to the eradication of all defilements. There is impingement of visible object, sound and the other sense objects on the relevant sense-doors and these objects are experienced by cittas which arise and fall away, succeeding one another in processes. In a process of cittas there are moments of citta which are either kusala or akusala, but most of the time we are ignorant of this. On account of the objects which are experienced through the different doorways we form up long stories, we are quite absorbed in our thinking. The cittas which think arise in mind-door processes and they may be kusala, but most of the time they are akusala. We cling to the people around us or we are annoyed about them, and we forget that there are no people, only nåma and rúpa. Khun Sujin stressed during the discussion that when we go to sleep all the stories we made up during the day are forgotten. It is true that when I am asleep I do not know who I am, whom I am married to or where I live. We have forgotten our joys, fears and worries. When we are asleep and not dreaming there are no processes of cittas which experience objects impinging on the six doors. There are bhavanga cittas (life-continuum), cittas which have the function of keeping the continuity in life, and these cittas experience the same object as the rebirth-consciousness, which is the object experienced shortly before the dying-consciousness of the previous life. It is beneficial to know about such details, it helps us to understand that all the stories we are absorbed in now are nothing at all. They exist only so long as we are thinking about them, but they are forgotten as soon as we are asleep. Khun Sujin said that we should not wait until we go to sleep to forget about the stories we make up. One can come to realize that the processes of cittas which experience sense objects pass like a flash and that on account of them there is thinking. We live in our own world of thinking from birth to death. We have different feelings because of our thinking, but everything passes like a flash, it is very temporary. ********* Nina. #68175 From: connie Date: Sat Feb 10, 2007 10:48 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (22) nichiconn Dear Friends, part 2 - A.d.dhakaasitheriigaathaava.n.nanaa arahatta.m pana patvaa udaanavasena- 25. "yaava kaasijanapado, su"nko me tattako ahu; ta.m katvaa negamo aggha.m, a.d.dhenaggha.m .thapesi ma.m. 26. "Atha nibbindaha.m ruupe, nibbinda~nca virajjaha.m; maa puna jaatisa.msaara.m, sandhaaveyya.m punappuna.m; tisso vijjaa sacchikataa, kata.m buddhassa saasanan"ti.- Imaa gaathaa abhaasi. Then she attained Arahatship, and she spoke these verses as a solemn utterance: 25. My wages [of prostitution] were as large as the [revenue of the] country of kaasi. The townspeople fixed that price and made me worth half the price. 26. Then I became disgusted with my beauty, and being disgusted, I was disinterested [in it]. May I not run again through the journeying on from rebirth to rebirth again and again. I have realized the three true knowledges. I have done the Buddha's teaching. CAF Rhys Davids: No less my fee was than the Kaasii realm Paid in reve'nue - this was based on that, Value for value, - so the sheriff fixed. (25) But irksome now is all my loveliness; I weary of it, disillusionized. Ne'er would I more, again and yet again, Run on the round of rebirth and of death! Now real and true for me the Triple Lore. *129 Accomplished is the bidding of the Lord. (26) Tattha yaava kaasijanapado, su"nko me tattako ahuuti kaasiisu janapadesu bhavo su"nko kaasijanapado, so yaava yattako, tattako mayha.m su"nko ahu ahosi. Kittako pana soti? Sahassamatto. Kaasira.t.the kira tadaa su"nkavasena ekadivasa.m ra~n~no uppajjanaka-aayo ahosi sahassamatto, imaayapi purisaana.m hatthato ekadivasa.m laddhadhana.m tattaka.m. Tena vutta.m- "yaava kaasijanapado, su"nko me tattako ahuu"ti. 25. There, my wages (su"nko) [of prostitution] were as great as the [revenue of the] country of Kaasi (Kaasi-janapado) means: the origin [of the revenue] is among the Kaasi people (Kaasiisu janapadesu), the revenue (su"nko) of the country of Kaasi. However large this [revenue] was, so large were my wages. Were (ahu) means: were (ahosi). But how large was it? As much as a thousand [coins]. Now at that time, in the kingdom of Kaasi, income coming in as revenue (su"nka) to the king in one day was as much as a thousand [coins], and the wealth received by her also in one day from men's hands was that large. Therefore it is said: my wages [of prositution] were as large as the [revenue of the] country of Kaasi. Saa pana kaasisu"nkaparimaa.nataaya kaasiiti sama~n~na.m labhi. Tattha yebhuyyena manussaa sahassa.m daatu.m asakkontaa tato upa.d.dha.m datvaa divasabhaagameva ramitvaa gacchanti, tesa.m vasenaaya.m a.d.dhakaasiiti pa~n~naayittha. Tena vutta.m- "ta.m katvaa negamo aggha.m, a.d.dhenaggha.m .thapesi man"ti. Ta.m pa~ncasatamatta.m dhana.m aggha.m katvaa negamo nigamavaasijano itthiratanabhaavena anagghampi samaana.m a.d.dhena aggha.m nimitta.m a.d.dhakaasiiti sama~n~naavasena ma.m .thapesi, tathaa ma.m vohariiti attho. She received the name Kaasii because [her wages] measured as much as the revenue of Kaasi. In that place, for the most part, men were not able to give a thousand [coins], so giving half (upa.d.dha) [of that], they enjoyed themselves during only part of the day, then went away. Because of them, she was known as A.d.dhakaasii ["half of Kaasi"]. Therefore it is said: the townspeople fixed that price and made me worth half the price. That [price] means: fixing the value of the price at five hundred [coins]. Townspeople means people living in a market town. Although [I was] pricelss indeed through being a jewel of a woman, they made me worth half (a.d.dha) the measure of the price, and so they called me A.d.dhakaasii. The meaning is: thus they called me. Atha nibbindaha.m ruupeti eva.m ruupuupajiivinii hutvaa .thitaa. Atha pacchaa saasana.m nissaaya ruupe aha.m nibbindi.m "itipi ruupa.m anicca.m, itipida.m ruupa.m dukkha.m, asubhan"ti passantii tattha ukka.n.thi.m. Nibbinda~nca virajjahanti nibbindantii caaha.m tato para.m viraaga.m aapajji.m. Nibbindaggaha.nena cettha taru.navipassana.m dasseti, viraagaggaha.nena balavavipassana.m. 26. Then I became disgusted with my beauty (nibbind' aha.m ruupe) means: [I was] thus established as one who gains her living from her beauty; then afterwards, depending on the teaching, I became disgusted with my beauty (ruupe aha.m nibbinda.m). Seeing that beauty is indeed impermanent, that this beauty is indeed painful, unpleasant, I was tired of that. And being disgusted (nibbinda.m ca) I was disinterested [in it] (virajj' aha.m) means: and I (caaha.m), being disgusted (nibbindantii), attained dispassion after that. And here, by including "disgusted with" (nibbinda-ggaha.nena) she indicates [she possessed] budding insight. By including "dispassion" (viraaga-ggaha.nena) she indicates strong insight. "Nibbindanto virajjati viraagaa vimuccatii"ti hi vutta.m. Maa puna jaatisa.msaara.m, sandhaaveyya.m punappunanti iminaa nibbindanavirajjanaakaare nidasseti. Tisso vijjaati-aadinaa tesa.m matthakappatti.m, ta.m vuttanayameva. For it is said, "Being disgusted, one becomes disinterested; being dispassionate, one is released." May I not run again through the journeying on from rebirth to rebirth again and again means: she points out through this the state of indifference and disgust. The three true knowledges (tisso vijjaa), etc, means: the attainment of the summit of these. That has already been explained. [RD notes: << *129 Tisso vijjaa. The Brahmanic phrase, tevijjo, often recurring below - e.g., Ps. xxxvii. - and signifying 'versed in the three Vedas,' was, according to Anguttara-Nikaaya, i. 163-5, adopted by the Buddha and applied to the three attainments of pa~n~naa, entitled reminiscence of former births, the Heavenly Eye, and the destruction of the Asavas. >> [The Buddhist Dictionary notes: and remarks of the te-vijja that << They are, however, not a necessary condition for the attainment of sainthood (arahatta), i.e. of the sixth abhi~n~naa. >> Also, << In connection with the 4 kinds of progress (s. patipadaa), abhi~n~naa means the 'comprehension' achieved on attainment of the paths and fruitions. >> << Vis.M. XI-XIII gives a detailed explanation of the 5 mundane higher powers, together with the method of attaining them. >> A.d.dhakaasitheriigaathaava.n.nanaa ni.t.thitaa. Here ends the commentary on the verses by Therii A.d.dhakaasii. ::::::::::::::::: connie. #68176 From: "joelaltman26" Date: Sat Feb 10, 2007 11:51 am Subject: to resist or not to resist joelaltman26 Dear Friends, i am just beginning the endless process of thinning out my misunderstandings about "wrong practice" (which i guess necessarily stem from "wrong view"). perhaps someone could help me to understand the role of active resistance in this process... The concrete example that i am working with happens several times a day for me: a pleasant sensation arises for a certain taste experience... (triggered by this or that) then mind starts spinning and attachment arises and gets stronger and stronger... or already by that point the body has been set in motion to fulfill the craving without awareness. if it is not indulged in immediately, either with or without awareness, then an unpleasant sensation arises, and aversion sets in to the non fulfilling of the craving. during this process, there are usually many moments of sati (at intellectual level and sometimes at direct experience level)... especially of the vedana, but also of body intimation and mind door processes... it would seem that at many points i have the option to either "resist the temptation" or to "indulge in the temptation" but for the time being, mind has been using the excuse that to "resist" what is arising (attachment to sense pleasure) would be wrong practice... if it is there, it is arising because of accumulation and the idea is just to be aware of the akusula but not to wish against it or to try to change it (no one to try anyway...) what role, if any, does the concept of resistance play in the rising and falling of citta or in patipatti? it seems impossible at some level, because who resists who (or what resists what). but there is part of me that is "struggling" with what to do with this understanding (or lack thereof). in peace, joel #68177 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Feb 10, 2007 8:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Objects upasaka_howard Hi, TG - In a message dated 2/10/07 12:08:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@... writes: > who's to say wether something has really "arisen," or just the > continuous change of states has unfolded the present conditions. ======================= So long as 'states' doesn't mean states of some underlying, unchanging, and unobserved something-or-other, I tend to agree with you. Discreteness isn't a requirement for impermanence. There being single-point beginnings and endings is the commonsense, pre-investigational view of phenomena, but whenever a person seems to find these *exact* points, closer examination shows that to have been an error, I believe. These alleged exact transition points don't seem to be findable. If they DO in fact exist, then the toplogy of the timeline has to be radically different than the standard one. With metta, Howard #68178 From: connie Date: Sat Feb 10, 2007 1:49 pm Subject: Some Thoughts on the Sectarians Sutta (AN 3.61) nichiconn dear Herman, here we have an example of 'predicative behaviour', perhaps: Hi Howard and Connie, ---------- KH: > I am out of my depth with the Tittha Sutta; I don't know if it ..... down to .... I think it was Connie who found this sutta, wasn't it? She will tell us! :-) ----------------- connie: back in brotherly love, with Maha Kaccaana, << Pi.taka Disclosure 188. 46. Herein, what is Expressed in Terms of Creatures and Expressed in Terms of Ideas? < Unbiased Truth is hard to see, Penetration hard for fools to see, For one who knows, for him that sees, There is no relishing, I say > (cf Ud 80). "Unbiased Truth is hard to see, Penetration hard for fools to see" is Expressed in Terms of Ideas, while "For one who knows, for him that sees, there is no relishing, I say" is Expressed in Terms of Creatures. [And] the Simile of the Balk of Timber on the Banks of the Ganges (S iv 179-180): the "near bank", the "further bank", the being "thrown up on dry land", the "foundering in the middle", the being "seized by non-human beings", and the "becoming rotten with" (S iv 179) are Expressed in Terms of Ideas. [The phrase] "Thus a bhikkhu will be inclined to extinction" (S v 179) is Expressed in Terms of Creatures. 496. Herein, creatures have two ailments, namely ignorance and craving-for-being (§471). Two medicines have been stated by the Blessed One for the counteraction of these two ailments, namely quiet and insight. Those who make use of these two medicines verify two kinds of non-ailment, namely the heart-deliverance due to fading of lust and understanding-deliverance due to fading of ignorance. Herein, quiet is the medicine for the ailment of craving, whose non-ailing is the heart-deliverance due to fading of lust, while insight is the medicine for the ailment of ignorance, whose non-ailing is the understanding-deliverance due to fading of ignorance. For the Blessed One said as follows: < Two ideas should be diagnosed, namely name and form. Two ideas should be abandoned, namely ignorance and craving-for-being. Two ideas should be kept in being, namely quiet and insight. Two ideas should be verified, namely science and deliverance > (cf. D.iii,273-4). < quoth the raven, c. ps. i suppose we'd have to check puggalla panyati (sp) on the use of pronouns. Maatikaa THE TABLE OF CONTENTS begins: 1. Ekaka-uddeso 1. Cha pa~n~nattiyo- khandhapa~n~natti, aayatanapa~n~natti, dhaatupa~n~natti, saccapa~n~natti, indriyapa~n~natti, puggalapa~n~nattiiti. The Six Designations - viz.: (1) The notion of the groups. (2) The notion of sense-organs and their objects. (3) The notion of the elements of cognition. (4) The notion of truth. (5) The notion of sense-organs. (6) The notion of human types. ===== continue? #68179 From: connie Date: Sat Feb 10, 2007 1:49 pm Subject: Some Thoughts on the Sectarians Sutta (AN 3.61) nichiconn dear howard, other lovers, and nina ;) - MahaK, in Pitaka-Disclosure on " [ The 4 Blessings (Wheels) ] " 525. Four Blessings (Wheels): (1) living in befitting places as a blessing, (2) waiting on true mean as a blessing, (3) right disposition in self-guidance as a blessing, and (4) having in the past made merit as a blessing (see A.ii,32; also §312). 526. Herein, (1) living in befitting places has the characteristic of dependence on Noble Ones; it is the footing for waiting on true men. (2) Waiting on True Men has the characteristic of seeing Noble Ones; it is the footing for right disposition in self-guidance. (3) Right disposition in self-guidance has the characteristic of right practice; it is the footing for the kinds of merit. (4) Merit has the characteristic of amassing profitable ideas; it is the footing for all the kinds of excellence. connie, #68180 From: connie Date: Sat Feb 10, 2007 1:49 pm Subject: Some Thoughts on the Sectarians Sutta (AN 3.61) nichiconn (in memory of) dear Joop since he may not read this comment: Pitaka Disclosure 301. Now the verse [beginning] < The inner tangle and the outer tangle, ... > (S i 13) must be traced out by means of the answer to this question. How is it answered? [Herein,] the Blessed One answers with the verse < When a wise man, established well in virtue, ... > (§156). Herein, "keeping a pure heart in being" is quiet, while "keeping understanding in being" is insight. Herein, he infers as follows: The "inner tangle and the outer tangle" are any ideas abandoned by means of quiet and insight. As to the answer herein, lust is abandoned by means of quiet and ignorance is abandoned by means of insight. The lust which has what is in oneself for its ground is the "inner tangle" while the lust which has what is external for its ground is the "outer tangle". And the embodiment-view (§534) with what is in oneself for its ground is the "inner tangle" while the sixty-one types of view with what is external for their ground are the "outer tangle". [In fact] whatever, due to lust and to view-type, will exist there regarding what is in oneself and what is external, this is the "tangle". So in brief any craving and view whatever with what is in oneself for their ground are the "inner tangle" while any craving and view whatever with what is external for their ground are the "outer tangle". where have all the [good men] gone? long time passing... (a folksong). [soldiers], [posters] whatever, needn't be just men - ask sarah ;) mournfully, the joyous con ps: disclosure 773. The verse: < Whose cognizance is steady as a rock, ... > (§76). 774. [The Thread's Meaning.] As to the simile "as a rock": just as a rock neither shudders with the wind nor wavers with heat or with cold, as do many choiceless [inanimate things]; while they wither with heat, shrivel with cold and flutter with the wind, not so a rock. "Is free from lust for lust-provoking things, Untroubled too by trouble" (§76): cognizance thus free from lust for lust-provoking things through fading-of-lust is untroubled by trouble. What is the reason? [191] No grief about what is hate-provoking makes it hate; not hating, it will not be troubled; hence is it untroubled by trouble. "Whose cognizance is kept in being, like this, How shall suffering come to him?" (§76): because virtue (siila) is itself like a rock (sela). Just as a rock canot be made to shudder by any kind of opposition at all, so too such cognizance does not "shudder" with any defilement at all: this is non-delusion. That it is "free from lust for lust-provoking things" is non-greed. That it is "untroubled too by any trouble" is non-hate. 807. (v) How does he avoid both the repulsive and unrepulsive and abide in onlooking-equanimity mindful and aware? In [the case of] ideas such as the female form that are unrepulsive to one percipient of beatuy [therein], and in [the case of] ideas such as the discoloured and festering [corpse-stages] that are repulsive to one disgusted [by them], avoiding both these, he abides [seeing them thus]: < This is not mine, this is not I, this is not my self > (see M i 139). [198] That is how he avoids both and abides in onlooking-equanimity mindful and aware. 831. (16) Herein, what is the Coordination? As earth remains indifferent whether what is pure is thrown [on it] or whether what is impure is thrown [on it], so the body remains indifferent to both agreeable contacts (presences) and disagreeable contacts (presences), and so cognizance remains indifferent to resistance-contact or to pleasant feeling. This Thread is analysed with its similes by an analysis (?) for a person who gains knowledge from what is condensed. Herein, there is no opportunity for a coordination. pps. no disrespect of any last wishes (not to speak commentarially) intended. #68181 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Feb 10, 2007 2:41 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Some Thoughts on the Sectarians Sutta (AN 3.61) scottduncan2 Hi Howard, Thanks for clarifying: Howard: "I guess the most standard translation of 'dhatu' IS 'element'. But I find it misleading. As for difference in meaning between 'element', 'property', and 'quality', I see the difference being one of connotation or nuance, with them ranging from an objectivist/externalist sense in 'element' to a subjectivist/experientialist sense in 'quality', so, in terms of increasing phenomenalist connotation, I see the relationship of 'element' < 'property' < 'quality'." I find this continuum from objectivist/externalist to subjectivist/experientialist and the implicit dichotomy (objective/subjective) to be rather not the point. I'd ask for you to clarify this, but I know such requests tend to try your patience. How does this bear on the realities? Is there a gradation here? How does the fact of experience alter the nature of the experienced? I think that if one wishes to claim one or the other of the stances noted in this dichotomy then one can choose the word that fits. This amounts to an opinion. Dhaatu seems to be one of the Paali terms that is difficult to translate since it is meant differently in different contexts. The way it is meant in this sutta, according to the translators, seems to vary. This is why I was wondering about your preference for 'quality'. Howard: "I don't like the "thing" connotation I read into 'element'. I take an experiential-event perspective instead. I'm wary of "things", as they suggest true and static self-existence to me. This is why I don't like 'element'. This is my preference only - I'm not claiming an absolute here." I can appreciate that this is a preference of yours. I don't think, though, that 'the thing connotation' is the problem. One needn't misunderstand this, given an understanding of anatta. I don't think either of us do. No, I'd say, conversely, that preferring 'property' over 'element' in translation might reflect a desire to keep things open for just a little bit of self to remain. This injects just that much ambiguity into the translation. What is the 'experiential-event perspective' in this case, anyway? Is it not a truism that there is 'experience'? And of course there is no one who experiences. In fact 'experience' also involves the elements since the aayatanaa are elements. 'Element' leaves no doubt that there can be no one in control. Take, for example, the whole thing about 'bodily intimation'. There is no doubt that this is of the elements. A 'body moving' is a mind-originated phenomenon; and in the course of even the most miniscule of movements created by mind, the quality inherent in the elements precludes self entirely. Elemental activity is all that occurs. It is only the deluded who think, 'I'm going forward'. Using 'property' for 'element' subtly removes this important dimension of pure anatta from the teaching. Howard: "Yes. The thing is, 'dhatu' and 'dhamma' are virtual synonyms, and 'dhamma' doesn't denote a "thing" having a quality (lakkhana), but is indistinguishable from that quality. A dhamma "holds its own characteristic" in the sense of not being anything other than that characteristic, as I understand it. Childers' dictionary gives "nature, condition, quality, property, characteristic" as the lead meanings for 'dhammo'." Dhaatu and dhamma are related except that dhaatu maintains a meaning which clarifies the close connection to the material or physical. I'm not sure why you bring lakkhana into the discussion, since I don't see how these 'qualities' of all conditioned phenomena (naama and ruupa) bear on the dilution of the term 'element'. Again I agree with the way 'own characteristic' is being used; again - not the point. I wouldn't suggest that the two terms are so much synonymous as they are related. Dhamma is another word with such a complexity of meaning that I can't really know how it is used in various contexts. As I mention above, when the relation to the physical is down-played or obscured then there is room to imagine control. Oh, well, don't respond if this is trifling, I was just wondering about this stuff... Sincerely, Scott. #68182 From: "colette" Date: Sat Feb 10, 2007 8:29 am Subject: Re: Are all the bad things that happen to us results of our deeds? ksheri3 Good Morning connie, I like chatting with you about such things. So much of my life has been spent alone. I read, study, and then take that knowledge out into the world with me and PRACTICE ALONE. What is an "SnA:" ? I really am alone and I know that our relationship here, contact here, is fleeting, transient, but I truely enjoy your assistance, your encouragement, and your comaraderie. ;-) --- > It's been great meeting up with you at the library. Sure, my room's in > the basement, too. But, SnA: kaayo hi raagaadiina.m vaa.lana.m > Thought that might go nicely with the piece from your collection: << > ...Vasubandhu did not deny the efficacy of things and actions, but argued > that efficacy is exactly prompted by perception-only colette: THANK YOU! Now we can start through the field of crops that haven't been harvested yet, in my consciousness. Perception-only, there must be an individual doing the perceiving. That individual is manifested by, composed of, MANY different "conditions"which have passed by the individual. Each and every person's "conditions", experiences, are different THEREFORE their perception is not the same. I have a technique that I use in my PRACTICE which is to actually step into another person's shoes so that I can experience what they are experiencing so that I can understand it better and be a better friend to them. Don't remind me of all the hazards I take upon myself since the world is not a friendly place. It's very time consuming and strenuous on my self since I truely maintain a constant thought. got ta go doll. I'll be back in a little while 12pm toodles, colette without necessarily > relying on an external object as its cause. >> > > best wishes, > connie > #68183 From: "colette" Date: Sat Feb 10, 2007 10:37 am Subject: ouch, stubbed my toe. ksheri3 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connie wrote: > that efficacy is exactly prompted by perception-only without necessarily > relying on an external object as its cause. >> colette: I have problems with this statement. Since I have not had much time to bathe in this stream of consciousness I simply cannot get past an "external object" BEING a/the "cause" or causation. I mean I can't get past objectifying an "external object" at this point. I am meditating and concentrating on REMOVING THE EXTERNAL OBJECT from my consciousness and now you throw out here that this hallucination called an "external object" now causes something or causes anything. I see external objects as part of the DEFILED MIND. Allow me to use a paper on Xuanzang (Hsuan-tsang) for my reply: "Sense perceptions are commanded as regular and coherent by a store of consciousnesses, of which one is consciously unaware. Then, sense impressions produce certain configurations in this insensibility that 'perfumate' later impressions so that they appear consistent and regular." I am conscious of MY Defiled Mind, I am conscious that it tricks me and is very skillful at playing games with me, as the means to trick me. I, however, retain a wide variety of alaya-vijnana, and there is a lot of what most Westerners and those practioners of Western Traditions would called "careless", "promiscuis", even "foolish", and they ARE AWARE of the results I get. I simply cannot fight the all and at all times. Sorry, I've been doing this since 1978 and they just do not even make an impression on me, they ALWAYS LEAVE ME WITHOUT ANY CARE FOR THEM. The past week I've been going through some very heavy meditations (concentrations) and have I been getting raped but I cannot take my concentration away from my meditations to worry about these everyday habitual behavior of such losers that have no clue as to what I'm doing. And they gloat themselves, to their friends, etc, and here I am penniless schlepping to and from the libraries to get on the computer, AND I've gotta take care of the beautiful single family home that my roommates invited to live in the basement, as well as doing a lot of caring for them and their children. I'm really stressed out. I just do not care about anything sometimes when I go to bed. I am so tired because of the every single day battle, losing the battle because it truely does not matter if I win or lose therefore I could give a F*CK; but you've come along and given some kind of warmth to me and I guess I can just let it all hang out. Like I said, I've been doing this since 1978 and if some little neophyte wants to come along and challenge me simply because they know they can get an easy win, well fine, he/she simply does not understand that, as Billy Joel says "I'm so good with my stilletto, you'll stand there bleedin'" They won't feel the cuts until they leave to basque in the light of their greed, sloth/torpor, etc. with the rest of their gang. I've gotta do some research and then go to bed. Please remember: "A seed produces a manifestation, A manifestation perfumes a seed. The three elements (seed, manifestation, and perfume) turn on and on, The cause and effect occur at one and the same time." toodles, colette #68184 From: "Phil" Date: Sat Feb 10, 2007 3:36 pm Subject: Re: ouch, stubbed my toe. philofillet Hi Colette > as Billy Joel says "I'm so good with my stilletto, you'll stand > there bleedin'" They won't feel the cuts until they leave to basque > in the light of their greed, sloth/torpor, etc. with the rest of > their gang. > It doesn't really matter how hard your life is - if you get caught up in thinking that this kind of violent intention (whether metaphorical or not) towards other is helpful or cool you'll just be harming yourself more and more, I think. You know all the lines up hatred not ceasing through hatred, etc. You seem so fascinated by the narrative of Colette against society! Why not try to let go of it? Easier said than done, I guess, but I think it would be good for someone to say that to you once in awhile, in a friendly way. Becacuse as you know that society is just a production of your cetasika factory run amok. Anguttara 8:6 is a wonderful sutta. Very calming, I think, helps us get distance from the world and its distractions. The verse that concludes it is: "This is the difference, this the distinction, this the distinguishing factor between the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones and the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person." Gain/loss, status/disgrace, censure/praise, pleasure/pain: these conditions among human beings are inconstant, impermanent, subject to change. Knowing this, the wise person, mindful, ponders these changing conditions. Desirable things don't charm the mind, undesirable ones bring no resistance. His welcoming & rebelling are scattered, gone to their end, do not exist. Knowing the dustless, sorrowless state, he discerns rightly, has gone, beyond becoming, to the Further Shore. Again, easier said than done, but I think it helps to see that the narrative that we have developed is foisted on us by the world and we can begin to let go of it and have peace of mind. Please don't stiletto me for this! And for a rock reference I offer you Neil Young "don't let it bring you down/it's only castles burning/so find someone who's turning/and you will come around." I think the castles burning are related to the narratives we build with our unchecked minds. Metta, Phil #68185 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Feb 10, 2007 10:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Some Thoughts on the Sectarians Sutta (AN 3.61) upasaka_howard Hi, Scott - In a message dated 2/10/07 5:48:07 PM Eastern Standard Time, scduncan@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > Thanks for clarifying: > > Howard: "I guess the most standard translation of 'dhatu' IS > 'element'. But I find it misleading. As for difference in meaning > between 'element', 'property', and 'quality', I see the difference > being one of connotation or nuance, with them ranging from an > objectivist/externalist sense in 'element' to a > subjectivist/experientialist sense in 'quality', so, in terms of > increasing phenomenalist connotation, I see the relationship of > 'element' <'property' <'quality'." > > I find this continuum from objectivist/externalist to > subjectivist/experientialist and the implicit dichotomy > (objective/subjective) to be rather not the point. -------------------------------------- Howard: Not your point. But it is mine. ------------------------------------ I'd ask for you to> > clarify this, but I know such requests tend to try your patience. How > does this bear on the realities? > ----------------------------------- Howard: If by that you mean the dhammas, that is what I'm talking about. I think of them as experiential qualities and activities as opposed to external things of some sort. Viewing rupas as qualities and namas as mental operations isn't all that uncommon. ----------------------------------- > Is there a gradation here? --------------------------------- Howard: Where? I was giving you my sense of the nuances of the three words, and I do see a gradation, as I explained. ---------------------------------- How does> > the fact of experience alter the nature of the experienced? ---------------------------------- Howard: I was discussing word choice. I choose terminology that refelects my understanding. I presume you do the same. ------------------------------------- > > I think that if one wishes to claim one or the other of the stances > noted in this dichotomy then one can choose the word that fits. This > amounts to an opinion. -------------------------------------- Howard: Of course it is an opinion! -------------------------------------- > Dhaatu seems to be one of the Paali terms that > is difficult to translate since it is meant differently in different > contexts. > -------------------------------------- Howard: 'Dhamma' also. --------------------------------------- The way it is meant in this sutta, according to the> > translators, seems to vary. This is why I was wondering about your > preference for 'quality'. ---------------------------------------- Howard: That's why I explained it. :-) --------------------------------------- > > Howard: "I don't like the "thing" connotation I read into 'element'. I > take an experiential-event perspective instead. I'm wary of "things", > as they suggest true and static self-existence to me. This is why I > don't like 'element'. This is my preference only - I'm not claiming an > absolute here." > > I can appreciate that this is a preference of yours. I don't think, > though, that 'the thing connotation' is the problem. One needn't > misunderstand this, given an understanding of anatta. > ------------------------------------------ Howard: I think choice of terminology is extremely important. Our language use affects our thinking. --------------------------------------- I don't think> > either of us do. No, I'd say, conversely, that preferring 'property' > over 'element' in translation might reflect a desire to keep things > open for just a little bit of self to remain. This injects just that > much ambiguity into the translation. --------------------------------------- Howard: My choice was 'quality', but in any case I don't follow your point. ---------------------------------------- > > What is the 'experiential-event perspective' in this case, anyway? Is > it not a truism that there is 'experience'? And of course there is no > one who experiences. In fact 'experience' also involves the elements > since the aayatanaa are elements. ---------------------------------------- Howard: The experiential-event perspective is the perspective I see presented in the Bahiya Sutta, a sutta I've discussed before. That perspective is a radical phenomenalist one that doesn't go beyond mere knowing (and other mental operations) and mere known (experiential qualities such as hardness-sensation, warmth-sensation, and tastes and sights.) It presumes no essence underlying mental operations (i.e., a personal self, or "little selves") and no essence underlying the objects/contents of consciousness (i.e., self-existent entities). ----------------------------------------- > > 'Element' leaves no doubt that there can be no one in control. > ----------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, I get your point with that. But it does so by separating matter from mind. It is a good word for chemists, but, IMO, misleading for Buddhists. ------------------------------------------ Take,> > for example, the whole thing about 'bodily intimation'. There is no > doubt that this is of the elements. A 'body moving' is a > mind-originated phenomenon; and in the course of even the most > miniscule of movements created by mind, the quality inherent in the > elements precludes self entirely. Elemental activity is all that > occurs. It is only the deluded who think, 'I'm going forward'. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Equally so if one considers "going forward" as just a bunch of impersonal sensations. -------------------------------------------- > > Using 'property' for 'element' subtly removes this important dimension > of pure anatta from the teaching. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: If it oes or you, then it would be a poor word choice for you. --------------------------------------------- > > Howard: "Yes. The thing is, 'dhatu' and 'dhamma' are virtual synonyms, > and 'dhamma' doesn't denote a "thing" having a quality (lakkhana), but > is indistinguishable from that quality. A dhamma "holds its own > characteristic" in the sense of not being anything other than that > characteristic, as I understand it. Childers' dictionary gives > "nature, condition, quality, property, characteristic" > as the lead meanings for 'dhammo'." > > Dhaatu and dhamma are related except that dhaatu maintains a meaning > which clarifies the close connection to the material or physical. I'm > not sure why you bring lakkhana into the discussion, since I don't see > how these 'qualities' of all conditioned phenomena (naama and ruupa) > bear on the dilution of the term 'element'. Again I agree with the > way 'own characteristic' is being used; again - not the point. -------------------------------------- Howard: It seems that what you and I consider to be "the point" differes markedly. ;-) ------------------------------------- > > I wouldn't suggest that the two terms are so much synonymous as they > are related. Dhamma is another word with such a complexity of meaning > that I can't really know how it is used in various contexts. As I > mention above, when the relation to the physical is down-played or > obscured then there is room to imagine control. > > Oh, well, don't respond if this is trifling, I was just wondering > about this stuff... > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > ======================== With metta, Howard #68186 From: connie Date: Sat Feb 10, 2007 4:06 pm Subject: Objects nichiconn HerMan: The arising and falling of objects is a hoax. niceConnie: continental drift! the arising and falling of concept; "sectarian objection" noted. with sincerity mid-nimitta-ship casting: < Date: Sat Feb 10, 2007 4:54 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Some Thoughts on the Sectarians Sutta (AN 3.61) scottduncan2 Hi Howard, Patience, please, more questions: S: "What is the 'experiential-event perspective' in this case, anyway? Is it not a truism that there is 'experience'? And of course there is no one who experiences. In fact 'experience' also involves the elements since the aayatanaa are elements." Howard: "The experiential-event perspective is the perspective I see presented in the Bahiya Sutta, a sutta I've discussed before. That perspective is a radical phenomenalist one that doesn't go beyond mere knowing (and other mental operations) and mere known (experiential qualities such as hardness-sensation, warmth-sensation, and tastes and sights.) It presumes no essence underlying mental operations (i.e., a personal self, or "little selves") and no essence underlying the objects/contents of consciousness (i.e., self-existent entities)." Are you saying that it is all in the mind? S: "'Element' leaves no doubt that there can be no one in control." Howard: "Yes, I get your point with that. But it does so by separating matter from mind. It is a good word for chemists, but, IMO, misleading for Buddhists." Yes, that is what you are saying! Sincerely, Scott. #68188 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Sat Feb 10, 2007 5:27 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Some Thoughts on the Sectarians Sutta (AN 3.61) egberdina Hi Scott, > Elemental activity is all that > occurs. It is only the deluded who think, 'I'm going forward'. > Of course "the deluded" are also just elemental activity. It doesn't do your cause any good if you cannot make your point from within the confines you are trying to impose on others :-) Cheers Herman #68189 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Sat Feb 10, 2007 6:14 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Objects egberdina Hi Howard and TG and Connie, Thanks indeed for the nice comments :-) > Here's a comment - hopefully "nice"! ;-)) > What do *you* mean by "rise" and "fall"? And why do you think they > don't occur? Without your saying more, it is unclear to me exactly what it is you > are saying you don't believe! ;-) > To me, the situation of a specific phenomenon (say a hardness > sensation) not now existing but later existing may be called the arising of that > phenomenon, and the opposite may be called the falling of it. I don't presume a > xero-duration point of arising (or appearing) and one of falling (or > disappearing). I do think the idea of a period of increase easing into one of > stabilization and then into one of decrease is a pretty darn good one. If that is in fact > the way phenomena come and go, then rising and falling would correspond to the > first and third of these periods. > Yes, of course I should have been clearer. It is consciousness that rises and falls. It is consciousness of objects that rises and falls. It is not objects that rise and fall. Nothing that is based on experience only can be a foundation for statements about the being, becoming, or not being of objects. Anything known about the being or otherwise of objects is known in dependence on the arising of consciousness, which is entirely not persistent. Even nibbana is known, inferentially, in this manner. And the nature of nibbana is that it just is. It does not rise or fall, by inference. In short, any object state is inference. We're in the thick of a thunderstorm, and have lost power once already, so I won't push my luck and just send this off now. Please let me know if this any clearer. Kind Regards Herman #68190 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Feb 10, 2007 6:46 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] to resist or not to resist lbidd2 Hi Joel, You should definitely resist the unwholesome (akusala) and cultivate the wholesome (kusala). "Don't resist" is incoherent because it means "resist resistance". Doris Day might say there is no control over action, que sera sera. Because there is no control there is choice. Every ethical dilemma could be answered either way, on the side of virtue or nonvirtue. Accumulation is just a predilection, it isn't an imperative. When the Buddha said there is no control he meant there is no control over kamma result. Kamma result is the question and kamma reaction is the answer. All answers are flawed in one way or another. Nibbana is the end of the problem. Even that is chosen in a special moment. Larry #68191 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Feb 10, 2007 7:37 pm Subject: Re: Inauthenticity of Anupada Sutta, MN111 buddhatrue Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > S: For example, there's always lots of controversy about whether it would > have been possible for Sariputta to flit between jhanas and the highest > insight/enlightenment whilst fanning the Buddha, if I recall. From an > understanding of Abhidhamma perspective which details the speed of such > changing cittas, none of this is an issue. Perhaps you could be a bit more specific about your Abhidhamma understanding in this regard. From my Abhidhamma understanding, it wouldn't be possible to flit back and forth between jhana and listening to a discourse while fanning the Buddha. You see, the thing that makes jhana jhana is that it is an uninterrupted state- this is why the defilements are suppressed during jhana because it is uninterrupted. Here are two sources of information which point this out: "When an individual attains to jhana, there is a similar disruption in the form of the normal thought process as that which occurs at death and in some senses it can be seen as an at least equally significant event. A fundamental change in the level of experience occurs as it can when the transition is made from one mode of existence to another at the moment of death. Jhana arises as a result of making the mind one-pointed upon a suitable object of meditation. When all the hindrances to this development have been suppressed and the five mental factors of vitakka, vicara, piti, sukha and ekaggata are sufficiently strong, then the following thought process occurs: the citta which turns to the mind door arises, followed by three or four javanas that are limited to the sense sphere which take the meditation object (patibhaga-nimitta) as their object. They are known as preparatory, access, adaptation and membership respectively. The first may or may not occur depending on the purity of the meditator. It can be seen as a preparation for the experience of a state of mind completely new and superior in quality. It is followed by access citta which leads on and lies close to that experience. The adaptation citta links the access citta to the membership citta which finally effects what is described in the texts as a 'change of lineage' from the sense plane to the rupa plane. It is followed by the appana citta whose characteristic is absolute one-pointedness of mind. It belongs to the plane of rupa in contrast to those cittas that immediately preceded which belong to the sense plane. The thought process then subsides into bhavanga once again. The same thought process arises before all jhanas, the appana citta differing in each case according to the level of jhana experienced. http://www.samatha.org/publications/abhidhammapapers/ch5_1.html "When one is not in a jhana state, he has either bhavanhga cittas or vithi cittas. Bhavanga citta is subconscious mind. Vithi citta is conscious mind. When he is asleep or when he is unconscious, he has bhavanga cittas. Even when he is awake, he has bhavanga cittas, as soon as the seventeen thought-moments, which a thought process (i.e., a set of vithi) is composed of, come to an end. The bhavanga cittas last till the next set of vithi cittas take place. They are a vital continuum in the absence of vithi cittas. Limitless Jhana cittas However, it is different when one is in a jhana state. His jhana cittas are not like ordinary vithi cittas which are limited to seventeen thought-moments at a time. Sometimes, under extraordinary circumstances, the vithi cittas are less than seventeen in a set. Jhana cittas are limitless. If, for example, he is in a jhana state for one hour; his jhana cittas take place, one after another, for lone hour. Bhavanga cittas have no chance to take place during that period. Jhanangas Moreover, one point, which distinguishes jhana cittas from ordinary vithi cittas, should also be mentioned. There are what is known as cetasikas (mental concomitants). They are 52 in number. Whenever a citta (mind) takes place, appropriate cetasikas, out of these 52, also take, place simultaneously. When they take place with ordinary vithi cittas, these cetasikas are ordinary cetasikas. They have no power to prevent nivaranas from taking place in the mind. When, however, they take place in jhana cittas, these cetasikas are transformed. They are no longer ordinary cetasikas. They are known as jhanangas. Jhanangas mean parts of a jhana. These jhanangas are six in number. They are as follows: http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/nu2.htm Metta, James #68192 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sat Feb 10, 2007 7:47 pm Subject: Re: Inauthenticity of Anupada Sutta, MN111 rjkjp1 Dear James Good question and comments. For the average jhana attainer he would only gain it with great difficulty and under ideal conditions, thus as you say he would not be fliting in and out of jhana. However, there were very skilled ones who had mastery of jhana and were able to leave and enter at will- as Sariputta and Moggalana could- as I understand it. Robert In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi> as preparatory, access, adaptation and membership respectively. The > first may or may not occur depending on the purity of the meditator. > It can be seen as a preparation for the experience of a state of #68193 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Feb 10, 2007 7:51 pm Subject: Distances (Was: Re: About Mudita buddhatrue Hi Phil and Joop, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > > Hi Joop > > I'm sure like me and I'm sure like others here you have found > thoughts about DSG popping up an awful lot during meditation... From my perspective, DSG cannot be blamed to interrupting one's meditation. If it wasn't thoughts about DSG arising, it would be thoughts about other subjects. The thing about meditation is that the mind should be kept within the body. When the mind wanders outside of the body, just bring it back. As the Buddha taught: "And what is right concentration? There is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities…. One needs to withdraw from the outside world. Good wishes for your continued practice!! Metta, James #68194 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sat Feb 10, 2007 3:31 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Objects TGrand458@... In a message dated 2/10/2007 7:17:57 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, hhofmeister@... writes: Yes, of course I should have been clearer. It is consciousness that rises and falls. It is consciousness of objects that rises and falls. It is not objects that rise and fall. Nothing that is based on experience only can be a foundation for statements about the being, becoming, or not being of objects. Anything known about the being or otherwise of objects is known in dependence on the arising of consciousness, which is entirely not persistent. Even nibbana is known, inferentially, in this manner. And the nature of nibbana is that it just is. It does not rise or fall, by inference. In short, any object state is inference. Hi Herman Two comments... 1) This approach doesn't seem to have any coincidence to the general approach the Buddha talked about things. 2) Consciousness is just a "resultant" based on the so-called objects. As objects/states/phenomena/conditions change, so does consciousness change. The fact that consciousness changes is evidence that objects are changing. They are not separate things. They are connected like gears on a clock. TG #68195 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Feb 10, 2007 4:25 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Some Thoughts on the Sectarians Sutta (AN 3.61) upasaka_howard Hi, Scott - In a message dated 2/10/07 7:59:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, scduncan@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > Patience, please, more questions: > > S: "What is the 'experiential-event perspective' in this case, anyway? > Is it not a truism that there is 'experience'? And of course there > is no one who experiences. In fact 'experience' also involves the > elements since the aayatanaa are elements." > > Howard: "The experiential-event perspective is the perspective I see > presented in the Bahiya Sutta, a sutta I've discussed before. That > perspective is a radical phenomenalist one that doesn't go beyond mere > knowing (and other mental operations) and mere known (experiential > qualities such as hardness-sensation, warmth-sensation, and tastes and > sights.) It presumes no essence underlying mental operations (i.e., a > personal self, or "little selves") and no essence underlying the > objects/contents of consciousness (i.e., self-existent entities)." > > Are you saying that it is all in the mind? -------------------------------------- Howard: You're saying that I'm saying that. I'm saying just what I said. Why the need to paraphrase? -------------------------------------- > > S: "'Element' leaves no doubt that there can be no one in control." > > Howard: "Yes, I get your point with that. But it does so by separating > matter from mind. It is a good word for chemists, but, IMO, misleading > for Buddhists." > > Yes, that is what you are saying! -------------------------------------------- Howard: Paraphrase as you will. I am content. --------------------------------------------- > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > ======================= With metta, Howard #68196 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Feb 10, 2007 5:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Objects upasaka_howard Hi, Herman (and Scott) - In a message dated 2/10/07 9:16:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, hhofmeister@... writes: > Hi Howard and TG and Connie, > > Thanks indeed for the nice comments :-) > > > Here's a comment - hopefully "nice"! ;-)) > > What do *you* mean by "rise" and "fall"? And why do you think they > >don't occur? Without your saying more, it is unclear to me exactly what it > is you > >are saying you don't believe! ;-) > > To me, the situation of a specific phenomenon (say a hardness > >sensation) not now existing but later existing may be called the arising of > that > >phenomenon, and the opposite may be called the falling of it. I don't > presume a > >xero-duration point of arising (or appearing) and one of falling (or > >disappearing). I do think the idea of a period of increase easing into one > of > >stabilization and then into one of decrease is a pretty darn good one. If > that is in fact > >the way phenomena come and go, then rising and falling would correspond to > the > >first and third of these periods. > > > > Yes, of course I should have been clearer. It is consciousness that > rises and falls. It is consciousness of objects that rises and falls. > It is not objects that rise and fall. Nothing that is based on > experience only can be a foundation for statements about the being, > becoming, or not being of objects. Anything known about the being or > otherwise of objects is known in dependence on the arising of > consciousness, which is entirely not persistent. Even nibbana is > known, inferentially, in this manner. And the nature of nibbana is > that it just is. It does not rise or fall, by inference. ---------------------------------------- Howard: When you speak above of consciousness rising & falling, it seems to me you are referring to consciousness as a dual-faceted event consisting of knowing and known. I do follow that, but that's not the way I speak of this. To me, consciousness is the knowing, and the content (or object) is the known, and they are distinguishable though inseparable. The content is the experence (i.e., what is experienced), and the consciousness is the experiencing of it, and neither exists without the other. There is no unseen sight, and there is no seeing without a sight that is seen, but the sight and the seeing of it are not the same.The seeing is visual consciousness, and the sight is visual rupa, and each exists only (interdependently) in relation to the other. Visual rupas are, I believe, experiential realities, and they have nothing to do with either the commonsense or physicist's or chemist's notion of matter. To me, matter is concept-only, but rupas are elements of experience. (Hey, Scott, look at that - I said "elements"! ;-)) --------------------------------------------- > > In short, any object state is inference. --------------------------------------------- Howard: You are using 'object' to refer to an alleged something-or-other that is not a sense-door sensation (such as a sight, or sound-sensation, or touch-sensation), but is somehow contacted by a consciousness (that it is separate from and "external" to), producing the sense-door sensation. I agree that such an "object" could only be inferred, for all that we actually experience is the sense-door sensation. I, it happens, don't use 'object' that way. I use it as the *mere* object, the sense-door sensation that there is consciousness of. -------------------------------------------- > > We're in the thick of a thunderstorm, and have lost power once > already, so I won't push my luck and just send this off now. Please > let me know if this any clearer. -------------------------------------------- Howard: I think so. If I understand you properly, we see this issue the same w ay but differ in our terminology. --------------------------------------------- > > > Kind Regards > > > > Herman > > ========================== With metta, Howard #68197 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Sat Feb 10, 2007 10:13 pm Subject: Re: to resist or not to resist ken_aitch Hi Joel, --------- J: > i am just beginning the endless process of thinning out my misunderstandings about "wrong practice" (which i guess necessarily stem from "wrong view"). perhaps someone could help me to understand the role of active resistance in this process... ---------- I don't believe it has a role. Active resistance - as distinct from conditioned resistance (samma-viriya?) - is really no resistance at all; it is just a concept. --------------------- J: > The concrete example that i am working with happens several times a day for me: a pleasant sensation arises for a certain taste experience...(triggered by this or that) then mind starts spinning and attachment arises and gets stronger and stronger... or already by that point the body has been set in motion to fulfill the craving without awareness. ---------------------- There is the illusion of control in ordinary daily life activities. We seem to have a choice over whether we resist temptation or yield to it. And that illusion is perfectly natural. However, in this instance, I think you are equating the illusion of control with the Dhamma, and that is a mistake. My advice is to keep the two separate. In the absolute reality taught by the Buddha, there are only dhammas. They arise and fall away by conditions. There is no you or me in control of them. Ken H #68198 From: "kanchaa" Date: Sat Feb 10, 2007 11:06 pm Subject: Re: The Endless Round! kanchuu2003 True! #68199 From: "kanchaa" Date: Sat Feb 10, 2007 11:21 pm Subject: Harmonization between what you think and what you do? kanchuu2003 Dear All, Hello from me all the way from Nepal! I think something and when it comes to action its different... I just go to my unconscious state... And when I realize it, its late, tooo late... How do you harmonize your thoght and your action? Sincerely, Nitesh