#68600 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Mon Feb 19, 2007 2:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Acceptance speech egberdina Hi James, On 19/02/07, buddhatrue wrote: > Hi Herman, > > > I like your posts a lot! They are very striking in the way they > point out ridiculous propositions! Very zen. > Thanks, James. I want to publicly thank you for the private mail you sent me re my foxy meditation experiences. I suspect you'll be happy to learn that you have inspired me to resume meditation again. Kind Regards Herman #68601 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Feb 19, 2007 9:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Persons upasaka_howard Hi, Herman - In a message dated 2/19/07 4:38:28 PM Eastern Standard Time, hhofmeister@... writes: > I hope I am not as literal as all that :-). To me, there is no mental > operation without object. And to be an object of mental operation is > to already have been conceived as such. > -------------------------------------- Howard: Not at all! To *call* it an object or *think of it* as an object, yes. But for there to be content of consciousness, there is no need whatsoever for that content to be characterized or thought of as anything at all. It need only be present as experience. ------------------------------------ Perhaps I misunderstand you,> > but it seems that you allow room for some unconscious consciousness, > or some unexperienced experience. > ---------------------------------- Howard: You are going to a secondary level of awareness of some sort, a knowing that one is knowing (at the same time) - an apperception. I am not. ------------------------------- Nama without rupa is void of any> > characteristic. > ------------------------------- Howard: It is untrue that there is no nama without rupa. The object of consciousness may be nama as well as rupa. There is no nama without content - with that I agree. ================== With metta, Howard #68602 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Feb 19, 2007 2:21 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Persons scottduncan2 Hi Howard, Thanks for the added clarification: H: "And the full definition includes in part "love, loving, loving disposition; tender care, forbearance, considerateness; seeking the [general] good, compassion," which, as I said, is the opposite of hate. The prefix 'a' in Pali is sometimes a mere negation operation and other times an opposition operator." I think what I was getting at was that adosa is a sobhana hetu - a mental factor accompanying citta and rendering it sobhana as well. I think you are right about the Paali, although in this case, as I mention, the point being made was that adosa, as a mental factor (cetasika), is a reality itself. Atthasaaliini (pp.466-467): "Among the coupled [propositions], in the exposition of 'absence of hate': - 'having love' is exercising love, 'loving' is the method of exercising love; 'lovingness' is the state of heart which is endowed with love, is productive of love. 'Tender care', i.e., watchful, meaning 'one protects'. Tender carefulness' is the state of tenderly caring. 'Beneficence' is seeking [to do] good. 'Compassion' is exercising compassion. And by all these terms that love, too, which [in Jhaana] has reached access and ecstacy is included. By the remaining terms absence of hate that is either worldly or transcendental is described." Kh. Sujin notes, in A Survey of Paramattha Dhammas: "Non-aversion (adosa cetasika) is the cetasika that is not angry, coarse, or harsh. It has the characteristic of friendliness, and it is also called mettaa...because it extends benevolence to all beings." Would you be able, perhaps, to consider this mental factor and delineate the 'experience versus function' dichotomy mentioned in an earlier post? And, again, would it interest you to discuss this in relation to 'person'? (I notice, for example, the wording in Kh. Sujin's statement about the characteristic of adosa as 'benevolence to all beings', which is interesting). Sincerely, Scott. #68603 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Feb 19, 2007 2:36 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Acceptance speech sarahprocter... Hi Herman, --- Herman Hofman wrote: > You and Nina agreed that people cannot be the objects of sati. What > are these Great Council people doing writing books about and for > people? Obviously each moment of writing about persons, or to persons, > is not a moment of sati. ..... 1. Sati, the cetasika arises with all sobhana cittas. So at moments of dana, at moments of metta, at moments of any kind of sila, at moments of samatha development there is also sati cetasika arising. 2. When we are talking about sati in the development of satipatthana, as you indicate, only namas and rupas can be the object. 3. Cittas arise and pass away extremely fast. Whilst writing about persons or to persons, there are an extraordinary amount of different sense door and mind door processes involved. The thinking about people cannot occur without many sense door processes in between the mind door processes. 4. Sati (or satipatthana) can be aware of a reality, such as the thinking or sound or visible object right in the middle of uttering a sentence about people therefore. 'Uttering a sentence about people ' is conventional language which actually represents many, many processes of cittas. 5. We don't have to count, we don't have to be overly concerned with processes. But we can learn and find out for ourselves that sati of the various kinds mentioned above can be aware anytime during the day, even though it's true that satipatthana can only take realities as objects. 6. So one moment, there can be the idea of people and the next moment there can be awarness of the thinking, the metta or whatever dhamma appears. It's not a case of stopping the thinking about people or halting the conversation at the Great Council however! ........ Please let me know (kindly!!)where the problem lies, but we have to get technical on this one, I think. I hadn't misunderstood you, but was trying to avoid going into detail. Metta, Sarah ======= #68604 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Mon Feb 19, 2007 2:49 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Persons egberdina Hi Howard, On 20/02/07, upasaka@... wrote: > Hi, Herman - > > > > -------------------------------------- > Howard: > Not at all! To *call* it an object or *think of it* as an object, yes. > But for there to be content of consciousness, there is no need whatsoever for > that content to be characterized or thought of as anything at all. It need > only be present as experience. > ------------------------------------ Whatever is experienced is quite specific. I agree that there is no need to call whatever is happening anything, or to reflect on it. Where we differ is that you say that unnamed or unreflected-on experience is not conceptual, and I say it is. Because it is possible for whatever is experienced to be refined (so to speak). Even the experience of nothing is the experience of something. > Howard: > You are going to a secondary level of awareness of some sort, a > knowing that one is knowing (at the same time) - an apperception. I am not. > ------------------------------- I do not believe that there is any consciousness which IS it's object. All consciousness knows it's object, as well as knowing that it is other than it's object. To be other than something, is to be not that something. This is the fundamental negation/nothingness that lies at the heart of all consciousness, and towards the apex of the jhanas. > Nama without rupa is void of any> > > characteristic. > > > ------------------------------- > Howard: > It is untrue that there is no nama without rupa. The object of > consciousness may be nama as well as rupa. There is no nama without content - with > that I agree. > ================== Cool :-) Kind Regards Herman #68605 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Feb 19, 2007 10:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Persons upasaka_howard Hi, Scott - In a message dated 2/19/07 5:22:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, scduncan@... writes: > Kh. Sujin notes, in A Survey of Paramattha Dhammas: > > "Non-aversion (adosa cetasika) is the cetasika that is not angry, > coarse, or harsh. It has the characteristic of friendliness, and it > is also called mettaa...because it extends benevolence to all beings." > > Would you be able, perhaps, to consider this mental factor and > delineate the 'experience versus function' dichotomy mentioned in an > earlier post? And, again, would it interest you to discuss this in > relation to 'person'? (I notice, for example, the wording in Kh. > Sujin's statement about the characteristic of adosa as 'benevolence to > all beings', which is interesting). > ====================== I'm sorry - I'm not following you. Would you say more, please? With metta, Howard #68606 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Feb 19, 2007 4:02 pm Subject: Re: Daana Corner (02) philofillet Hello Han and all I don't have time to post today but I just want to note my appreciation for this dana corner. I have often written at DSG that I feel "dana-challenged." This corner will give me a chance to better understand the importance of dana, which, as has been noted in the first two posts, the Buddha stressed at the very beginning of his graduated teaching. Metta, Phil #68607 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Mon Feb 19, 2007 4:02 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: various current DSG threads ken_aitch Hi all, Yesterday, I had a brief chat with a long-standing surfing acquaintance. He is about 40 years old and one those rare people described by all who know him as, "the nicest person you could ever hope to meet." I had already heard from a mutual friend that he was about to lose his fight with cancer. His doctors had given him 12 to 18 months to live. But there he was at his favourite break – Ti Tree Bay – (in perfect surfing conditions, thankfully) talking cheerfully as if nothing had happened. He mentioned his relapse (without referring to the `12 to 18 months' part) and explained in a matter-of-fact way that this was his last chance for a surf before going to a health farm. We shook hands and had of one those hackneyed inadequate conversations about "all the best" and how life was about "enjoying every moment" etc. What a pity we couldn't have had a more meaningful conversation! What a pity he didn't know about the Dhamma! Wherever we are – whether it is at home playing cribbage, sitting in a mountain temple, in the surf, or coughing up our lungs in hospital – there are only dhammas. The more we know about dhammas, the more we appreciate this truth. So let's not waste the precious opportunity that DSG is giving us - let's get on with our Dhamma studies. Ken H #68608 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Feb 19, 2007 11:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: various current DSG threads upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 2/19/07 7:04:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, ken_aitch@... writes: > But there he was at his favourite break – Ti Tree Bay – (in perfect > surfing conditions, thankfully) talking cheerfully as if nothing had > happened. He mentioned his relapse (without referring to the `12 to > 18 months' part) and explained in a matter-of-fact way that this was > his last chance for a surf before going to a health farm. We shook > hands and had of one those hackneyed inadequate conversations > about "all the best" and how life was about "enjoying every moment" > etc. > > What a pity we couldn't have had a more meaningful conversation! What > a pity he didn't know about the Dhamma! Wherever we are – whether it > is at home playing cribbage, sitting in a mountain temple, in the > surf, or coughing up our lungs in hospital – there are only dhammas. > ===================== I'm very sorry for your friend. And you are right about it being a blessing (my term) to know the Dhamma. But as for your conversation, it sounds like it was pretty good to me, and it sounds like he's rather much of a ntural Buddhist who does quite well. With metta, Howard #68609 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Feb 19, 2007 4:29 pm Subject: Thinking about Dhamma (was Re: An Interesting Meditation) to Phil philofillet Hi again Andrew > > 2. in practical terms, what is the difference between considering > > before, during and after actions of mind whether they are leading > to > > one's welfare and that of others, and wanting to understand > > (intellectually or at a deeper level) the realities of the present > > moment and whether they are kusala or akusala? I missed this last part of your question the first time. Always read without enough care. That's the problem - there is a tendency to say taht it is not as important to know whether it is kusala or akusala as it is to know that it is anatta. I have a very good example of this thinking in a quote that I will use when I write to jon - the gist is that one becomes less concerned about whether it is kusala or akusala, because it is known that it is anatta, and every moment becomes instructive. I think this is seriously premature. It could lead one to relax about one's unwholesome tendencies in the mistaken belief that a deep intellectual understanding of anatta absolves one of the implications of unwholesomeness. Metta, Phil #68610 From: TGrand458@... Date: Mon Feb 19, 2007 11:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Persons TGrand458@... Hi Herman You bring up some good points and an irrefutable Sutta. In a message dated 2/19/2007 1:48:31 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, hhofmeister@... writes: > TG: I do believe there are experiences unmediated by conceptualization. > Feelings come before percepts or concepts. (I will elaborate on a separate > post re: mindfulness and conceptualization. > The following from MN43 indicates to me that what we believe we can seperate is really just a well-mixed soup :-) "Feeling, perception, & consciousness are conjoined, friend, not disjoined. It is not possible, having separated them one from another, to delineate the difference among them. For what one feels, that one perceives. What one perceives, that one cognizes. Therefore these qualities are conjoined, not disjoined, and it is not possible, having separated them one from another, to delineate the difference among them." TG: Yea. I may be wrong, but it still seems to me that when contact occurs, feeling and consciousness are definitely instantly present, but that perception requires another (almost instantaneous) process before it engages. From the Abhidhamma perspective, consciousness receives the information and then investigates. This is all a "single consciousness process" with multiple factors involved. Yet I must hold the above quote as the authority on the matter. I guess the question for me would be... is the Buddha's statement an issue of "for all practical purposes," or is it an impossibility to feel without perceiving? For if there were no difference between feeling and perceiving, there would be no point in having two categories. I'd be interested in your remarks Herman. Furher, I believe that even at the highest level of jhana there is still conceiving happening. From AN 9:34. "Furthermore, there is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of the dimension of nothingness, enters & remains in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. If, as he remains there, he is beset with attention to perceptions dealing with the dimension of nothingness, that is an affliction for him. Now, the Blessed One has said that whatever is an affliction is stress. So by this line of reasoning it may be known how pleasant Unbinding is." Even nothingness is a concept. Kind Regards Herman TG #68611 From: TGrand458@... Date: Mon Feb 19, 2007 11:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Mindfulness and Conceptualization TGrand458@... In a message dated 2/19/2007 1:44:44 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, upasaka@... writes: Howard P.S. Talking about conceptualization reminds me of something I've been considering writing about onlist. I'll just say a word or two here: I've noticed for a long time, and much more so recently, that, for me, much of thinking is becoming literally painful! Especially during meditation, I've been discerning the flow of thoughts as actually painful - dukkha. I don't mean that there is upset at the fact that thinking is going on. I mean that the thinking itself is dukkha. When the thinking ceases or when it "slides by" freely without the slightest attachment, it is like a crushing burden has been removed. Hi Howard Yes, and I believe all feeling falls into this category. Hence the Buddha's analogy about the lepers. That's why ultimately all is suffering in a very profound way. The so-called pleasurable experiences are in actuality painful too, but we don't recognize them as such because they are giving us relief from other more painful experiences. TG #68612 From: TGrand458@... Date: Mon Feb 19, 2007 11:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Persons TGrand458@... In a message dated 2/19/2007 3:20:16 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, upasaka@... writes: Howard: It is untrue that there is no nama without rupa. The object of consciousness may be nama as well as rupa. There is no nama without content - with that I agree. ================== With metta, Howard Hi Herman and Howard. Even "pure" mental content is still based on a structure of rupa, the body/brain for example....as well as the rupa that formed the memories that would now be being tapped by "thought" for example. How about for a living human who was completely unconscious? Could rupa at that time be existing without nama? Personally, I don't make that big a deal between differentiating the two. I think they are just different modes of the same stuff....energy. TG #68613 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Feb 19, 2007 5:16 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Persons scottduncan2 Hi Howard, H: "I'm sorry - I'm not following you. Would you say more, please?" Sure. Would you like to discuss 'persons' in relation to adosa? Sincerely, Scott. #68614 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Feb 19, 2007 12:33 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Persons upasaka_howard Hi Scott - In a message dated 2/19/07 8:19:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, scduncan@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > H: "I'm sorry - I'm not following you. Would you say more, please?" > > Sure. Would you like to discuss 'persons' in relation to adosa? > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > ============================ Mmm, I don't know. What's there to say about persons in relation to anything? I'd rather just discuss suttas, their content, and how we might come to better understand that content. BTW, it's just an idiosyncrasy of mine, I know, but for some reasons that I am aware of and others of that I am not, I tend to go into mental blackou t mode when I see Pali expressions used for which there are perfectly good English alteratives. ;-) My smiley aside, I'm serious about that. With metta, Howard #68615 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Feb 19, 2007 5:41 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Persons scottduncan2 Hi Howard, "Mmm, I don't know. What's there to say about persons in relation to anything? I'd rather just discuss suttas, their content, and how we might come to better understand that content. BTW, it's just an idiosyncrasy of mine, I know, but for some reasons that I am aware of and others of that I am not, I tend to go into mental blackout mode when I see Pali expressions used for which there are perfectly good English alteratives. ;-) My smiley aside, I'm serious about that." Okay. Thanks. Sincerely, Scott. #68616 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Feb 19, 2007 5:44 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Acceptance speech buddhatrue Hey Foxy! ;-)), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > > Hi James, > > On 19/02/07, buddhatrue wrote: > > Hi Herman, > > > > > > I like your posts a lot! They are very striking in the way they > > point out ridiculous propositions! Very zen. > > > > Thanks, James. I want to publicly thank you for the private mail you > sent me re my foxy meditation experiences. I suspect you'll be happy > to learn that you have inspired me to resume meditation again. You're right- I am very happy to hear that! Best wishes for your continued practice! :-) Metta, James #68617 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Feb 19, 2007 6:12 pm Subject: Limited Compassion ([dsg] Re: various current DSG threads) buddhatrue Hi Ken H. and All, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ken_aitch" wrote: > > Hi all, > > Yesterday, I had a brief chat with a long-standing surfing > acquaintance. He is about 40 years old and one those rare people > described by all who know him as, "the nicest person you could ever > hope to meet." I had already heard from a mutual friend that he was > about to lose his fight with cancer. His doctors had given him 12 to > 18 months to live. It is nice to see some expression of compassion from Mr. No One Exists. ;-)) I also like your expression of samvegga. Mentioning compassion, I thought I might share this article with the group about a recent study on compassion and how it is limited (in the worldling I would assume): http://news.yahoo.com/s/livescience/20070216/sc_livescience/humancompa ssionsurprisinglylimitedstudyfinds Metta, James Ps. Ken, did you see the acceptance speech I wrote for KS? That's part of my counter-intelligence operation….just call me Bond, James Bond. ;-)) #68618 From: han tun Date: Mon Feb 19, 2007 6:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Daana Corner (02) hantun1 Dear Phil, Thank you very much for your kind comments. Yes, we will see the entire scope of daana as we continue going through the essays written by the well-known scholars. Respectfully, Han #68619 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Mon Feb 19, 2007 7:57 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: various current DSG threads ken_aitch --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > What a pity we couldn't have had a more meaningful conversation! What > > a pity he didn't know about the Dhamma! Wherever we are â€" whether it > > is at home playing cribbage, sitting in a mountain temple, in the > > surf, or coughing up our lungs in hospital â€" there are only dhammas. > > > ===================== > I'm very sorry for your friend. And you are right about it being a > blessing (my term) to know the Dhamma. But as for your conversation, it sounds > like it was pretty good to me, and it sounds like he's rather much of a ntural > Buddhist who does quite well. > Hi Howard, I don't know about "natural Buddhist." I would say that he and other people like him have a natural understanding for what is kusala and what is akusala. But they don't know that those things are only dhammas. So they are not yet headed in the right direction. This particular friend (acquaintance) has the tenacity to be cheerful and friendly no matter what the circumstances. And yet our conversation followed the usual hackneyed lines of how we should be making the most of these `beautiful days' with their `near-perfect waves' etc. What about his courage and cheerfulness? Those were the things that really needed praising. When a person is about to enter the final – probably very painful – days of his life, what sort of a friend would wax lyrical about `happy times' `sunshine' and `waves?' Wouldn't that be a kind of prejudice? Wouldn't it exclude the world he was headed for – a world of hospitals, pain, distressed wife and children - from the realm of the good life? What I needed to somehow acknowledge was that any time in which there was courage and good cheer would be infinitely superior (infinitely more desirable) to a time of mere sensual pleasure. Ken H #68620 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Mon Feb 19, 2007 8:38 pm Subject: Limited Compassion ([dsg] Re: various current DSG threads) ken_aitch Hi James, ---------------- J: > It is nice to see some expression of compassion from Mr. No One Exists. ;-)) ---------------- Please believe me; people who really understand anatta (and I don't include myself in there) are the most compassionate people of all. --------------------- J: > I also like your expression of samvegga. Mentioning compassion, I thought I might share this article with the group about a recent study on compassion and how it is limited (in the worldling I would assume): http://news.yahoo.com/s/livescience/20070216/sc_livescience/humancompa ssionsurprisinglylimitedstudyfinds --------------------- I tried several methods of making that link work, but to no avail. Never mind. --------------------------- <. . > J: > Ps. Ken, did you see the acceptance speech I wrote for KS? That's part of my counter-intelligence operation….just call me Bond, James Bond. ;-)) ---------------------------- Yes, it was very good. However, it didn't bear the hallmarks of a dyed-in-the-wool Abhidhammaist. If you really want to go undercover you will need to talk a lot more about the present moment. :-) Ken H #68621 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Feb 19, 2007 9:53 pm Subject: Limited Compassion ([dsg] Re: various current DSG threads) buddhatrue Hi Ken H., --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ken_aitch" wrote: > > Please believe me; people who really understand anatta (and I don't > include myself in there) are the most compassionate people of all. > > --------------------- James: Yeah, I know. But they don't say that people don't exist. > J: > I also like your expression of samvegga. Mentioning > compassion, I thought I might share this article with the group about > a recent study on compassion and how it is limited (in the worldling > I would assume): > > http://news.yahoo.com/s/livescience/20070216/sc_livescience/humancompa > ssionsurprisinglylimitedstudyfinds > --------------------- > > I tried several methods of making that link work, but to no avail. > Never mind. If you copy and past into the address bar it should work. But I will go ahead and post the entire article in another post. It is indirectly related to Buddhism. > > --------------------------- > <. . > > J: > Ps. Ken, did you see the acceptance speech I wrote for KS? > That's > part of my counter-intelligence operation….just call me Bond, James > Bond. ;-)) > ---------------------------- > > Yes, it was very good. However, it didn't bear the hallmarks of a > dyed-in-the-wool Abhidhammaist. If you really want to go undercover > you will need to talk a lot more about the present moment. :-) James: ;-)) You got me! :-) > > Ken H > Metta, James #68622 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Feb 19, 2007 9:54 pm Subject: Limited Compassion- Article buddhatrue SAN FRANCISCO—While a person's accidental death reported on the evening news can bring viewers to tears, mass killings reported as statistics fail to tickle human emotions, a new study finds. The Internet and other modern communications bring atrocities such as killings in Darfur, Sudan into homes and office cubicles. But knowledge of these events fails to motivate most to take action, said Paul Slovic, a University of Oregon researcher. People typically react very strongly to one death but their emotions fade as the number of victims increase, Slovic reported here yesterday at the annual meeting of the American Association for the Advancement of Science. "We go all out to save a single identified victim, be it a person or an animal, but as the numbers increase, we level off," Slovic said. "We don't feel any different to say 88 people dying than we do to 87. This is a disturbing model, because it means that lives are not equal, and that as problems become bigger we become insensitive to the prospect of additional deaths." Human insensitivity to large-scale human suffering has been observed in the past century with genocides in Armenia, the Ukraine, Nazi Germany and Rwanda, among others. "We have to understand what it is in our makeup—psychologically, socially, politically and institutionally—that has allowed genocide to go unabated for a century," Slovic said. "If we don't answer that question and use the answer to change things, we will see another century of horrible atrocities around the world." Slovic previously studied this phenomenon by presenting photographs to a group of subjects. In the first photograph eight children needed $300,000 to receive medical attention in order to save their lives. In the next photograph, one child needed $300,000 for medical bills. Most subjects were willing to donate to the one and not the group of children. In his latest research, Slovic and colleagues showed three photos to participants: a starving African girl, a starving African boy and a photo of both of them together. Participants felt equivalent amounts of sympathy for each child when viewed separately, but compassion levels declined when the children were viewed together. "The studies ... suggest a disturbing psychological tendency," Slovic said. "Our capacity to feel is limited. Even at two, people start to lose it." #68623 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Mon Feb 19, 2007 10:58 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Computer programming /was Re: Acceptance speech egberdina Ki KenH, I am really sorry to hear about your surfing friend. And, I would recommend a swift kick to the gonads of any MD who dares to tell their patient how much longer they have to live. Such an MD is no different to a kamma specialist. How dare they?? Humbug!! You HAVE made a difference to your friend, KenH. We all make a difference to each other. On 18/02/07, ken_aitch wrote: > Hi Herman, > > > My first ever computer - an Amstrad - came with instructions for > Mallard Basic. It was great! I wrote a very long program (probably > twice as long as it needed to be) that played an excellent (though I > say so myself) game of draw poker. > > Twenty-three years later, I purchased Y-----'s (trade name deleted to > protect the innocent) simulated Texas Hold'em Poker. It was woeful! > So I have decided to write a decent one. > My first computer was a TRS-80, after which our paths merge, and I too became the proud owner of an Amstrad. Good on ya for writing KenH's improved poker game. > --------------------- > H: > I'm sure there's lots of Dhamma in there. You just have to know > how to look. > --------------------- > > Too right! I hear you are working on a program that converts concepts > into realities. :-) ---- I am much more interested in you as who you are, the man who wrote a program in Mallard Basic, the man who has a dying beach friend, the man who designed his own house, the man I will meet and have at least one (or perhaps two) light beers with before I am 70, then I am in how you explain that these things are happening. The mind trawling for reasons is a futile and sometimes ugly beast indeed. There is no good reason to be happy or compassionate. But these things just happen when one doesn't trawl. Cheers Herman #68624 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Mon Feb 19, 2007 11:57 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Outstanding Women Acceptance Speech -draft 3 ken_aitch Hi Sarah and Jon, Excellent! Couldn't be better! Don't change a word! Ken H #68625 From: "Andrew" Date: Tue Feb 20, 2007 12:16 am Subject: Thinking about Dhamma (was Re: An Interesting Meditation) to Phil corvus121 Hi Phil I've had one of those days and probably shouldn't be at a keyboard ... but just for a little while. ((-: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > > Hi again Andrew > > > > 2. in practical terms, what is the difference between > considering > > > before, during and after actions of mind whether they are > leading > > to > > > one's welfare and that of others, and wanting to understand > > > (intellectually or at a deeper level) the realities of the > present > > > moment and whether they are kusala or akusala? > > > I missed this last part of your question the first time. Always > read without enough care. That's the problem - there is a tendency > to say taht it is not as important to know whether it is kusala or > akusala as it is to know that it is anatta. I have a very good > example of this thinking in a quote that I will use when I write to > jon - the gist is that one becomes less concerned about whether it > is kusala or akusala, because it is known that it is anatta, and > every moment becomes instructive. I think this is seriously > premature. It could lead one to relax about one's unwholesome > tendencies in the mistaken belief that a deep intellectual > understanding of anatta absolves one of the implications of > unwholesomeness. A: I'll look forward to reading your quote - until then I can't determine if you are taking issue with something said or something "read between the lines". From a practical perspective, I am having some difficulty with the notion that a realisation of anatta can be experienced without also some insight into the jati (kusala/akusala). Also, doesn't the "no control" perspective eschew the notion of "I choose to know anatta over jati"? Not sure, I'm tired ... but maybe you will touch on those matters in your post to Jon. Bye for now Andrew #68626 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Feb 20, 2007 1:28 am Subject: to monk or not to monk. nilovg Hi James, ---------- you will see that I know that both householders and monks/nuns can follow the Buddha's path. Unfortunately, I seem to be one of the few in this group who can see that!! Nina, why is it that on the one hand you say you have a lot of respect and admiration for monks and nuns, but then on the other hand if anyone mentions a desire to become a monk or nun you try to dissuade them from doing so?? I'm sorry, but that is hypocritical. --------- N: I try to answer your post and then you will see whether I dissuade people. --------- J: Why is it that I would like to become a monk? (But I cannot because of my parents). It is very simple- I would like to become a monk because I lack self-discipline. .... ------ N: I understand your point. ---------- This is the same kind of reason why I have the desire to become a monk- I can't really learn and practice the Buddha's path on my own.... Nina, you can sense my frustration because you can see that I would like to become a monk but cannot. But, you really don't understand the reason for my frustration. You write, "No need to force oneself to be different or live according to an ideal image one thinks of, an imge of how one should be. That is very frustrating." You know Nina, you could give me a bit more credit. I don't want to ordain because of some fantasy in my mind, I want to ordain because I know that I need it. Nina, if you don't need it- GREAT! More power to you!! But not everyone is like you. -------- N: You have more self discipline than you make it appear to yourself. From your education by your parents there were not many possibilities for your intellectual development, but all by yourself you made enormous accomplishments as to learning. Perhaps you feel unsure because of the attitude of your stepmother who adopted you but did not really want you as a child. Such events can have great influence on one's whole life. I discussed your point with Lodewijk and he said that you have all his sympahy. He said: 'Using as a motive the need to self-discipline *may* ( note the word *may*) not be the right motive, it *may* contain an element of self-assertion. On the other hand, it is certainly true that monkhood as embodied in the buddhist Sangha, is a direct way of self-denial. But you yourself is the only one to judge whether you have the right motive for becoming a monk.' We also discussed that we do not really know our own accumulations, let alone someone else's accumulations. So, how could I dissuade anyone from becoming a monk? Monkhood is a higher state of life and it is great if you can follow this. But we all have the latent tendencies of defilements and we take these with us, wherever we go. Also as a monk life will not be easier in respect to this. When he commits transgressions these weigh more heavily than they do for a lay person because he has a greater responsibility. However, he also has the support of his fellowmonks and can ring the bell. (remember the sutta on the removing of unwholesome thoughts and Commentary). Also the public confession helps in having less inclination to transgress again. Most of all, the monk has to develop the understanding, the wisdom that can eventually eradicate even the latent tendencies. If he omits this he is not a true recluse. When it is said: monks and laypeople alike can develop the eightfold Path both of us fully agree. At this moment you are a layperson and right understanding can be developed in your own situation. I would like to say: do not wait until you can become a monk, that is, when your parents have died. We do not know the future, you may die before them. Thus, there is this moment now! Let us discuss dhamma that appears right now through eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind-door. Even lack of self-discipline is a moment of akusala citta that is a conditioned dhamma and it can be known as such. Do not despise akusala as object of awareness. As Sarah quoted: <'Whatever streams are in the world, Ajita the Blessed One said, They are shut off by mindfulness; The streams' restraint I tell, whereby They can be sealed, is understanding'> (Sn. 1035; Pe 17, 84)" [A little later, the stress on the function of panna] "..the underlying-tendencies are abandoned by understanding. When the underlying-tendencies are abandoned the obsessions are abandoned. Why with the abandoning of the underlying-tendencies? Just as, when the complete uprooting of a tree with its trunk is effected, the continuity of flowers, fruits, shoots, and buds, is severed (cf Ps ii, 218), so too, when the underlying-tendencies are abandoned, the continuity of obsessions is severed, closed, covered up. By what? By understanding. That is why the Blessed One said that 'Whereby they can be sealed is understanding." ***** Nina #68627 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Feb 20, 2007 2:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Endless Round! sarahprocter... Dear Ven Samahita, I always find these great reminders - reminders to develop awareness and understanding now! --- Bhikkhu Samahita wrote: > Blinded by Ignorance & Driven on by Craving! > > The Blessed Buddha once said: > There will come a time, Bhikkhus & Friends, when all the mighty > oceans will evaporate, dry up, vanish, and exist no more... > But there will be no end of Suffering for beings who, blinded by > Ignorance and obsessed by Craving, are hurrying and hastening > through this samsaric round of endless rebirths...This I tell you! > There comes a time, when this mighty planet earth will explode in > a gigantic burst of fire, be completely destroyed, & exist no more... > But there will be no end of Misery for beings who, obstructed by > Ignorance and addicted by Craving, are hurrying, even running and > hastening from birth to repeated death in this round of rebirths... > This I explain to you! > > Source: > Grouped Discourses of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya SN 22:99 ..... Metta, Sarah ========= #68628 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Feb 20, 2007 2:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Theriigaathaa - Sisters (21) sarahprocter... Dear Connie, Scott & all in the 'Sisters' corner, Thank you Connie, as usual, for all the wonderful installments. --- connie wrote: > Dear Friends, > > Suma"ngalamaatutheriigaathaava.n.nanaa - > The commentary on the verses by Therii Suma"ngalamaataa (Sumangala's > Mother) .... S: We read about how she became an arahant: > His mother went forth with the bhikkhuniis and devoted herself to the gaining of insight[vipassanaaya]. One day, she examined for herself the pain[laddhadukkha.m] she had been subject to at the time she was a householder and a profound stirring[sa.mvega] arose [in her]. She increased her insight[vipassana.m] and attained Arahatship together with the [four] discriminations[patisambhidaahi]. .... >Making a solemn utterance, she spoke these two verses: > > 23. I am well released, well released, properly released from the > pestle. My shameless man, even his sunshade, etc, [disgust me]. My pot > gives forth the smell of a water snake. > 24. I destroy desire and hatred with a sizzling sound. I go to the > foot > of a tree, and thinking, "O the happiness," meditate upon it as > happiness. .... S: So here we are back at the foot/root of a tree, meditating..... But in context, this is the verse of an arahat with no more attachment of any kind to sense-pleasures (or the household life) at all. So we read that she dwells in phala samapatti, experiencing the fruition (phala) consciousness with nibbana as object: .... > Saa rukkhamuulamupagammaati saa aha.m suma"ngalamaataa vivitta.m > rukkhamuula.m upasa"nkamitvaa. Sukhato jhaayaamiiti sukhanti jhaayaami, > kaalena kaala.m samaapajjantii phalasukha.m nibbaanasukha~nca > pa.tisa.mvediyamaanaa phalajjhaanena jhaayaamiiti attho. Aho sukhanti > ida.m panassaa samaapattito pacchaa pavattamanasikaaravasena vutta.m, > pubbaabhogavasenaatipi yujjateva. > Suma"ngalamaatutheriigaathaava.n.nanaa ni.t.thitaa. > > I (saa) go to (upagammaa) the foot of a tree means: I (saa aha.m), the > mother of Suma"ngala, having approaced (upasa"nkamitvaa) the foot of a > secluded tree. [I] meditate upon it as happiness (sukhato) means: I > meditate, thinking, "Happiness (sukhan)", and attaining it from time to > time, I meditate by means of the fruition of meditative absorption, > perceiving the happiness of quenching and the happiness of the fruition > state. This is the meaning. [And thinking,] "O the happiness": now here, > this is said because of her continued mental attention after her > attainment of that and is also linked because of her previous > reflection. > Here ends the commentary on the verses by Therii Suma"ngalamaataa. ..... S: Should we follow her example and go to the root of the tree and try to experience phala samapatti (fruition consciousness - in this case of the arahant) with nibbana as object? I don't think anyone would suggest so! Metta, Sarah ======== #68629 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Feb 20, 2007 2:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Objects sarahprocter... Hi TG, I've been following all your discussions with interest, especially your ones with Howard and Scott recently. Thank you. --- TGrand458@... wrote: > In the Visuddhimagga, deeper levels of insight are said to focus on just > the > "fall" of phenomena. This approach brings forth a more comprehensive > Dukkha > outlook and hence raises the level of detachment. We can see all > states as > being a continuous "fall," and the so-called rising being just the > residue of > that falling. ... S: I was interested in this because I heard something similar recently and asked a question about it when we were last in Bkk. Would you kindly give me the Vism ref.? TIA. Metta, Sarah p.s We haven't heard from Ray for ages - I remember he always used to make good comments. If you're in touch, pls encourage him to pop in occasionally. ============ #68630 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Feb 19, 2007 10:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Limited Compassion- Article upasaka_howard Hi, James - In a message dated 2/20/07 12:55:41 AM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@... writes: > > SAN FRANCISCO—While a person's accidental death reported on the > evening news can bring viewers to tears, mass killings reported as > statistics fail to tickle human emotions, a new study finds. > > > The Internet and other modern communications bring atrocities such as > killings in Darfur, Sudan into homes and office cubicles. But > knowledge of these events fails to motivate most to take action, said > Paul Slovic, a University of Oregon researcher. > > > People typically react very strongly to one death but their emotions > fade as the number of victims increase, Slovic reported here > yesterday at the annual meeting of the American Association for the > Advancement of Science. > > > "We go all out to save a single identified victim, be it a person or > an animal, but as the numbers increase, we level off," Slovic > said. "We don't feel any different to say 88 people dying than we do > to 87. This is a disturbing model, because it means that lives are > not equal, and that as problems become bigger we become insensitive > to the prospect of additional deaths." > > > Human insensitivity to large-scale human suffering has been observed > in the past century with genocides in Armenia, the Ukraine, Nazi > Germany and Rwanda, among others. > > > "We have to understand what it is in our makeup—psychologically, > socially, politically and institutionally—that has allowed genocide > to go unabated for a century," Slovic said. "If we don't answer that > question and use the answer to change things, we will see another > century of horrible atrocities around the world." > > > Slovic previously studied this phenomenon by presenting photographs > to a group of subjects. In the first photograph eight children needed > $300,000 to receive medical attention in order to save their lives. > In the next photograph, one child needed $300,000 for medical bills. > > > Most subjects were willing to donate to the one and not the group of > children. > > > In his latest research, Slovic and colleagues showed three photos to > participants: a starving African girl, a starving African boy and a > photo of both of them together. > > > Participants felt equivalent amounts of sympathy for each child when > viewed separately, but compassion levels declined when the children > were viewed together. > > > "The studies ... suggest a disturbing psychological tendency," Slovic > said. "Our capacity to feel is limited. Even at two, people start to > lose it." ============================ My interpretation: Much as we may not like it, our feelings of compassion are *personal* in the sense that they are aimed at those aggregates we call "beings". Groups are less personal than individual persons. Groups don't think, groups don't feel, groups don't suffer. Individuals do. On the other hand, going in the opposite direction, from person-level to component-level, there would also be a falling off of compassion even more dramatic. Little compassion is aroused at stories or pictures of diseased organs, cancerous tissue, abnormal cells, and malfunctioning genes, whereas it is aroused when the pictures and stories are of people who *have* diseased organs, cancerous tissue, abnormal cells, and malfuntioning genes. Now, as regards that second case, it might strike one that what aouses compassion isn't "matter", but "mind". That analysis is somewhat close to the truth, but actually misses, I think. Strictly impersonal, textbook stories of painful mental states don't arouse compassion either, because they don't arouse empathy. I believe that what arouses compassion is empathy, and for worldlings, it is depictions of individual people (or animals) with problems that arouse the greatest compassion, because it is at that level that identification is easiest. As regards arousal of compassion general, groups of beings are impersonal abstractions and fall short in engendering empathy. Components of a being are even less likely to induce empathy, being even less personal in flavor. Compassion, even the compassion of a buddha, is always directed towards beings, though, of course, a buddha doesn't view the being as anything more than an empty, though coherent, aggregate of changing phenomena. Lets put it this way: No one, not even a buddha, feels compassion for individual paramattha dhammas. That just does not happen. With metta, Howard #68631 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Feb 20, 2007 3:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Thoughts on the Sectarians Sutta (AN 3.61) sarahprocter... Dear Connie & all, Another good quote: --- connie wrote: > MahaK, in Pitaka-Disclosure on " [ The 4 Blessings (Wheels) ] " > > 525. Four Blessings (Wheels): (1) living in befitting places as a > blessing, (2) waiting on true mean as a blessing, (3) right disposition > in self-guidance as a blessing, and (4) having in the past made merit as a blessing (see A.ii,32; also §312). > > 526. Herein, (1) living in befitting places has the characteristic of > dependence on Noble Ones; it is the footing for waiting on true men. (2) Waiting on True Men has the characteristic of seeing Noble Ones; it is > the footing for right disposition in self-guidance. (3) Right disposition in self-guidance has the characteristic of right practice; it is the footing for the kinds of merit. (4) Merit has the characteristic of amassing profitable ideas; it is the footing for all the kinds of excellence. ... S: perhaps we can say in summary: 1) being able to listen and benefit from the Buddha's teaching at this moment (the right place) 2) learning to appreciate what the Noble Ones know (the right person/people) 3) the accumulations/'disposition' to develop right understanding (the right practice) 4) the support from past understanding and other kinds of kusala as support (the past merit) In other words, they all refer to this moment, to the support for the development of the path now. Not the dress, position, place, people around us - but to pa~n~naa now as we speak. When there is a moment of being on the path, all these conditions are fulfilled without any special 'trying'. Thanks again! Metta, Sarah ======= #68632 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Feb 20, 2007 5:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The arahant- and the bodhisattva-ideal The End jonoabb Hi Joop (Continuing my catch-up, now even further behind than when I last wrote to you ;-)) Joop wrote: > Hallo Jon > > Jon: Could you please clarify what you mean by the 'Bodhisatta path'. > Do you mean *being* a Bodhisatta, or do you mean *working towards > becoming* one? Thanks. > > Joop: I mean: working towards Thanks for the clarification about what you mean by the Bodhisatta path, i.e. working towards becoming a Bodhisatta. Whatever else that may involve, I think first and foremost it involves the development of insight (a topic that is much discussed here). This is apparent from the fact that, according to the 'criteria' given in the texts for confirmation as a Bodhisatta, the person must be someone who is capable of attaining enlightenment in that lifetime (and would have done so had not he made the aspiration). Another thing it involves must surely be great merit of all kinds performed in the past. This would be necessary in order to meet the criteria of being born during the lifetime of a Buddha and having the opportunity to be in his presence and make the aspiration. So whatever we may aspire to, the immediate task in the same: the development of kusala of all kinds including especially of insight. Jon To me it's not surprising that there is no actual teaching on this in the Sutta Pitaka itself. #68633 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Feb 20, 2007 5:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: pa~n~natti and cohesion. jonoabb Hi Joel My apologies for the delay in talking to you, following your introductory message. If you haven't realised it already, my posts to the list tend to lag well behind the play ;-)) Thanks for posting your reflections on listening to the recordings of the discussions. I find the reminders useful. It's rare for anyone to get much out of the discussions on a first listening, so you have very unusual leanings in terms of the teachings. Jon joelaltman26 wrote: > Hello Sarah, > > I find all the discussions really so delightful. Kh Sujin is always > always always calling everything/everyone back to the present > moment, right now. when we are submerged, or flooded, by the ocean > of ideas --- the pannati, the nimitta (((ohh just yesterday i > listened to the incredible conversation where she indicates that > until the second stage of tender insight, where the rising and > falling of the dhammas is understood by panna in the present moment, > then we are really just aware of the nimitta of reality... beginning > stages of satipatthana... oh what a wonderfully subtle > truth/experience!))) > > it is like each person present at the discussion is an aspect of the > illusion of myself, reprenting different (not)-selves that "i" > contend with. and it is almost as if Kh Sujin, by her patient, > pleasant, and exacting presence, is calling the sampajano sati to > the front... "what about right now"... ahh... so blissful. > > you see, as i had all these hours that i had been practicing before, > now i can dedicate them to listening to and studying the dhamma. > i really feel so grateful to have been lead to this group/family of > friends in dhamma. i feel like i know you through hearing your > voices and listening to your questions. > > Thank you, both you and Jonation and the rest of the gang, for your > continued committment to the Dhamma and helping others. > > with love, > joel > > ps - The ashram is in the mountains of southern quebec, canada. > #68634 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Feb 20, 2007 5:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kusala and akusala jonoabb Hi Colette I wasn't sure whether you were addressing James or to me in this post, but since James has not replied then I shall do so ;-)). Thanks for coming in on the thread, nice to be talking to you. colette wrote: >>> That's the problem with leading questions- there is a lot of room for different interpretions. >> ?? ?? ?? >> > > colette: YOGACARA: the yogas of the mind. Planting seeds seems to be > a good analogy here since another person caused the > statement "there's a lot of room for different interpretions." which > ilicited the answer "?? ?? ??", so this person questions the question > as in what does that mean. Not questioning the question. Simply, I did not recall having put any leading questions, and had no idea which particular posting of mine James was referring to. > Here we get into the OBSCURATION that will > never be solved by the micro-manager consumed by their employment, > consumed by their mortgage, insurance, bills, etc. they are fixated > on MAINTAINING ILLUSIONS. They believe themselves to be something > which is not. Yes, this sounds like me. Guilty as charged, I'm afraid. > "the seeds then produce new seeds, with some seeds tainted by your > actions, and others unaffected. Even after death, the impressions of > deeds -- their karma -- linger on in the seeds of the alaya > consciounsess." You did not cite a source for this, which makes comment difficult. I am not really familiar with the 'alaya' consciousness (although I have a general idea what it's about). > You state that you want to examine HOWARD'S EXPERIENCE. How can you > do that since you are not in Howard's shoes, paying Howard's bills, > living Howard's life, feeling Howard's pain and pleasure, etc.? How > can you even consider the concept of kusala/akusala without being > Howard? You can imposed or dictate to Howard what YOU want to be but > I do not see how it's possible for you to interpret kusala/akusala > from Howard's POV, pair of shoes, since you are not Howard. I don't think it's necessary to be in anyone's shoes in order to consider the concept of kusala/akusala. As I understand the teachings, kusala and akusala relate to specific kinds of mental states, not to observable actions or conduct. The concepts are discussable (but not the other person's actual experience in terms of mental states). Howard later came back with a reference to the sutta at DN 21 in support of his comment that his experience must have been kusala because it lead to more or better meditation practice (msg #66992). I still owe him a reply on that one ;-)). Jon #68635 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Feb 20, 2007 5:49 am Subject: Re: to monk or not to monk. buddhatrue Hi Nina, Thanks for your kind and considerate post, but I can see that you are just never going to get it. You are never going to understand because you have a very idiosyncratic view of the Dhamma. To you, there is no need to have discipline to practice the dhamma because every moment is a moment to practice the dhamma. From cooking dinner to watching television there are constant moments to practice the dhamma- there is always seeing and hearing! If it were only that easy! You just don't get it. That isn't the way to practice the dhamma. There is perfecting sila, guarding the senses (from sensual objects), concentrating the mind, etc. It isn't easy and it takes a lot of effort. I do not have the self-discipline for the type of effort it requires. For example, Howard meditates two times a day, but I still don't think that's enough! That's the kind of effort I am talking about! I am talking about constant practice all day long (meditation in all postures, seclusion, mindfulness, etc.). Sure, I read the dhamma, practice meditation, practice mindfulness, discuss the dhamma, etc., but I don't have the type of self-discipline it will take to really practice the dhamma to perfection. You also seem to believe that people become monks and nuns because that is their "natural inclination". Oh yeah, they have the natural inclination to shave their heads, wear orange robes, remain celibate, eat only one meal a day, and give up all of their possessions. How many people do you think would have the `natural inclination' to do such a thing? People become monks or nuns because of samvegga, a sense of urgency. They see that the householder life is a dusty path, as the Buddha taught, and so they want to practice the dhamma to perfection. Oh gosh, I fear I am wasting my breath. But, it is nice of you a Lodewijk to be so concerned about me, but you shouldn't be. I haven't given up the dhamma; I just practice to my limited ability as a householder. I practice in a way which you wouldn't understand. Metta, James #68636 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Feb 20, 2007 5:52 am Subject: Re: Lachen und Weinen (Was: Re: [dsg] Meditation (again) jonoabb Hi Herman Herman Hofman wrote: > Presumably the enlightened person lacks the craving for existence, and > non-existence. It was my understanding that enlightenment results in > SOD (sudden onset death) unless they join the sangha (which > qualification seems a bit magical, at least I certainly don't > understand it). Yes, the enlightened person spoken of by the Buddha lacks the craving for existence, and non-existence. But he/she does not suddenly cease to do what is necessary to support and maintain life. Some arahants continue to live for decades, going on daily alms round and seeking medical treatment when sick (and presumably brushing their teeth before going to bed). So our idea of what it means to lack craving for existence and non-existence needs to take account of this fact. BTW, it is not a case of death for an arahant unless they join the sangha, as I understand it, but rather of leaving the home life (i.e., joining the sangha) unless death intervenes or is imminent. I suppose you might ask, why the need to change? These actions are not done out of a 'need to change', but are prompted by accumulated tendencies, although of course without akusala. An arahant does not, by virtue of eradicating all aksuala, also eradicate general accumulated habits and tendencies. The inclinations of an arahant lean strongly towards the homeless lifestyle. >> The consequence of not acting to support and maintain the body would be >> most unpleasant, not to mention painful for the person concerned, and >> even an arahant finds pain unwelcome (but without having aversion >> towards it). > > Is it reasonable to say then that an arahant still acts to avoid pain? > It seems that the avoidance of pain is guided by an aversion to pain, > and that they go hand in hand. > The pain is unpleasant, but there's no aversion to it. Like any other dis-ease, if it's treatable why should it not be treated? You would not doubt classify that as 'seeking change', but if the action is motivated other than by a craving for existence or non-existence, then it's not the kind of seeking change that you and I are familiar with. The arahant has eradicated all akusala, but that still leaves other accumulated tendencies and habits. These would include the accumulated tendency to support life and maintain good health. >> And then there is the force of accumulated tendencies. To get back to >> the subject of this thread (compassion), I take it that you would accept >> that there is such a thing for us worldlings as action (in the form of >> giving of assistance to another) that is motivated primarily by >> consideration for the other's well-being and not by either attachment >> (to the person) or aversion (to the circumstances of their suffering). > > No, I cannot conceive of such a state. If the circumstances of whoever > I am trying to assist do not arouse aversion in me, why would I think > that they are suffering? > Herman, are you serious here? ;-)) No sympathy for another unless there is aversion? (In that case, the more aversion, the more sympathy, perhaps ;-)) Surely a parent, for example, can notice that their child is suffering, without that fact arousing aversion in the parent. And a person can be suffering (e.g. with an illness) in the most pleasant of external circumstances, so no cause for aversion on that account in the eyes of the one trying to assist. > Empathy is the capacity to change your point > of view, and put yourself in someone else's shoes. Empathy, sympathy, > compassion, is a suffering WITH that person. An autistic person lacks > that capacity, and they consequently do not reach out to others to > help them (a simplification, but I hope you take the point). Seeing > suffering in others requires a capacity to suffer oneself. > The enlightened being still experiences various kinds of suffering (e.g., bodily pain), and also has first-hand knowledge of other kinds of suffering from experience prior to enlightenment. So there is no loss of capacity to appreciate the suffering being experienced by a non-enlightened being. Jon #68637 From: Trasvin Date: Tue Feb 20, 2007 4:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Outstanding Women Acceptance Speech -draft 3 trasvin Dear Sarah & Jon, You did a good job. I am content with it. Thank you very much. Cheers, --Jiw --- sarah abbott wrote: > All, again comments and further suggestions, > most welcome! Sarah (& Jon). > =============================================== > > > Draft3 contd > > > Acceptance speech > > [Part B – Talk about the Dhamma] > > In order to consider more what the Buddha's > teaching is, we need to > understand the terms he used and then consider > whether the world as he > described it is the same as the conventional > world as we know it. ... #68638 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Feb 20, 2007 5:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ariyan sangha jonoabb Hi Herman (and Howard) Herman Hofman wrote: > Hi Jon, > >> The term 'Sangha' can mean either (a) the community of ordained monks or >> (b) the community of enlightened ones, whether ordained into the order >> or still householders. When the reference is to the third of the Three >> Gems, the meaning is the latter (see Nyanatiloka extract below). >> >> In the passage you have quoted, Sangha has the meaning of the third of >> the Three Gems, that is to say, all those disciples who have attained >> enlightenment (including those who are still householders). > > Does the Sangha, as community of enlightened ones, have any members? > Yes, I presume so. I've seen Howard's post to you on this thread, so I'd like to add the following: In the ultimate sense, the ariyan sangha means the path consciousness (magga citta), i.e., the transcendental consciousness that arises at the moment of enlightenment. It is this dhamma that one recollects/pays respect to in recollecting/paying respect to the ariyan sangha. Jon #68639 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Feb 20, 2007 7:51 am Subject: Music and Lyrics buddhatrue Hi All, I saw something kinda shocking tonight. I went to see the new movie Music and Lyrics and it has a part where a famous female singer named Cora dances sexually with Buddhist monks (in an orgy type of way), in front of a Buddha statue, and sings "I just want my Buddhist orgasm". Hmmmm…I guess it was supposed to be funny, but no one in the predominately Buddhist audience where I was laughed. But, I just try to tell myself…..It's only seeing and hearing. ;-)) Metta, James #68640 From: connie Date: Tue Feb 20, 2007 8:05 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (30) nichiconn Dear You, Part one on Therii Uttamaa: Catukkhattu.m pa~ncakkhattunti-aadikaa uttamaaya theriyaa gaathaa. Ayampi purimabuddhesu kataadhikaaraa tattha tattha bhave viva.t.tuupanissaya.m kusala.m upacinantii The verses beginning Four times, five times are Therii Uttamaa's. She too did meritorious deed[s] under previous Buddhas and accumulated good [actions] as her basis for release. vipassissa bhagavato kaale bandhumatiinagare a~n~natarassa ku.tumbikassa gehe gharadaasii hutvaa nibbatti. Saa vayappattaa attano ayyakaana.m veyyaavacca.m karontii jiivati. At the time of the Blessed One Vipassii, she was reborn in the town of Bandhumatii and became a house servant in the household of a certain man of property. When she came of age, she lived working for her master and mistress. Tena ca samayena bandhumaraajaa pu.n.namiidivase uposathiko hutvaa purebhatta.m daanaani datvaa pacchaabhatta.m gantvaa dhamma.m su.naati. Atha mahaajanaa yathaa raajaa pa.tipajjati, tatheva pu.n.namiidivase uposatha"ngaani samaadaaya vattanti. Athassaa daasiyaa etadahosi- "etarahi kho mahaaraajaa mahaajanaa ca uposatha"ngaani samaadaaya vattanti, ya.mnuunaaha.m uposathadivasesu uposathasiila.m samaadaaya vatteyyan"ti. And at that time, King Bandhumaa kept the observance day on full-moon days. He gave gifts in the morning, and he went after eating and heard the Doctrine. Then the people entered upon [the practice] as the king did, undertaking the constituent elements of the observance day on that full-moon day. Then that servant girl thought to herself, "Indeed, the great king and the people undertake the constituent elements of the observance day. Let me also undertake the virtuous conduct of the observance day on the observance days." Saa tathaa karontii suparisuddha.m uposathasiila.m rakkhitvaa taavati.msesu nibbattaa aparaapara.m sugatiisuyeva sa.msarantii imasmi.m buddhuppaade saavatthiya.m se.t.thikule nibbattitvaa vi~n~nuta.m patvaa pa.taacaaraaya theriyaa santike dhamma.m sutvaa pabbajitvaa vipassana.m pa.t.thapetvaa ta.m matthaka.m paapetu.m naasakkhi. Pa.taacaaraa therii tassaa cittaacaara.m ~natvaa ovaadamadaasi. Saa tassaa ovaade .thatvaa saha pa.tisambhidaahi arahatta.m paapu.ni. And she, acting thus, kept the virtuous conduct of the observance day very pure. She was reborn in the Taavati.msa [realm] and journeyed on only in happy existences again and again. In this Buddha era she was born in the family of a wealth merchant of Saavatthi. When she was of age, she heard the Doctrine from Therii Pa.taacaaraa and went forth. She established insight but was unable to reach the summit. Therii Pa.taacaaraa recognized the workings of her mind and gave her instruction. She abided by that instruction and attained the state of Arahatship together with the [four] discriminations. RD: Come to years of discretion, she heard Pa.taacaaraa preach, and entered the Order; but she was unable to attain the climax of insight till Pa.taacaaraa, *149 seeing the state of her mind, gave her admonition. Thereby established, she won Arahantship, with thorough grasp of the Norm in form and in meaning. *149 See below, xlvii., li. Tena vutta.m apadaane (apa. therii 2.2.1-21)- "Nagare bandhumatiyaa, bandhumaa naama khattiyo; divase pu.n.namaaya so, upavasi uposatha.m. "Aha.m tena samayena, kumbhadaasii aha.m tahi.m; disvaa saraajaka.m sena.m, evaaha.m cintayi.m tadaa. "Raajaapi rajja.m cha.d.detvaa, upavasi uposatha.m; saphala.m nuuna ta.m kamma.m, janakaayo pamodito. As it is said in the Apadaana: In the town of Bandhumatii, the Khattiya named Bandhumaa [was king]; He kept the observance day on full-moon days. At that time I was a water-pot carrier. Having seen the army together with the king then, I thought thus: "Even the king has given up his kingdom and has kept the observance day. Surely this action bears fruit. The people are delighted." "Yoniso paccavekkhitvaa, duggacca~nca daliddata.m; maanasa.m sampaha.msitvaa, upavasi.m uposatha.m. "Aha.m uposatha.m katvaa, sammaasambuddhasaasane; tena kammena sukatena, taavati.msamagacchaha.m. "Tattha me sukata.m byamha.m, ubbhayojanamuggata.m; kuu.taagaaravaruupeta.m, mahaasanasubhuusita.m. "Accharaa satasahassaa, upati.t.thanti ma.m sadaa; a~n~ne deve atikkamma, atirocaami sabbadaa. I carefully considered my poverty and [the possibility of] a bad future rebirth. Then I made my mind happy and kept the observance day. I kept the observance day according to the teaching of the Fully and Perfectly Awakened One. Then through that good deed, I went to the Taavati.msa realm. There, through my good deed, arose a dwelling place a league in height and furnished with a choice pinnacled roof and with a beautifully decorated large couch. A hundred thousand celestial maidens always served me. I always outshone the other devas, surpassing them. "Catusa.t.thidevaraajuuna.m, mahesittamakaarayi.m; tesa.t.thicakkavattiina.m, mahesittamakaarayi.m. "Suva.n.nava.n.naa hutvaana, bhavesu sa.msaraamaha.m; sabbattha pavaraa homi, uposathassida.m phala.m. "Hatthiyaana.m assayaana.m, rathayaana~nca siivika.m; labhaami sabbameveta.m, uposathassida.m phala.m. I ruled as the chief queen of sixty-four deva kings, and I ruled as the chief queen of sixty-three wheel-turning monarchs. I journeyed on in various lives having a golden complexion. I was the most excellent everywhere. This was the consequence of that observance day. An elephant as a vehicle, a horse as a vehicle, a chariot as a vehicle, and a palanquin - all of this I obtained. This was the consequence of that observance day. "So.n.namaya.m ruupimaya.m, athopi phalikaamaya.m; lohita"ngamaya~nceva, sabba.m pa.tilabhaamaha.m. "Koseyyakambaliyaani, khomakappaasikaani ca; mahagghaani ca vatthaani, sabba.m pa.tilabhaamaha.m. "Anna.m paana.m khaadaniiya.m, vatthasenaasanaani ca; sabbameta.m pa.tilabhe, uposathassida.m phala.m. I obtained all these things made of gold, made of silver, made of crystal, and made of rubies. Clothing of great value - silk and woollen garments, linen and cotton - all of this I obtained. Food and drink, eatables, clothing, and lodging - all of this I obtained. This was the consequence of that observance day. "Varagandha~nca maala~nca, cu.n.naka~nca vilepana.m; sabbameta.m pa.tilabhe, uposathassida.m phala.m. "Kuu.taagaara~nca paasaada.m, ma.n.dapa.m hammiya.m guha.m; sabbameta.m pa.tilabhe, uposathassida.m phala.m. "Jaatiyaa sattavassaaha.m, pabbaji.m anagaariya.m; a.d.dhamaase asampatte, arahattamapaapu.ni.m. Excellent perfume, garlands, powder, and ointments - all of this I obtained. This was the consequence of that observance day. Pinnacled houses, palaces, pavilions, mansions, grottos - all this I obtained. This was the consequence of that observance day. I went forth at the age of seven to the homeless life. Not half a month had gone by when I arrived at Arahatship. "Kilesaa jhaapitaa mayha.m, bhavaa sabbe samuuhataa; sabbaasavaparikkhii.naa, natthi daani punabbhavo. "Ekanavutito kappe, ya.m kammamakari.m tadaa; duggati.m naabhijaanaami, uposathassida.m phala.m. My defilements are burnt out, all [future] births are completely destroyed. All my taints are exhausted. Now there is no renewed existence [for me]. In the ninety-one aeons since I did that deed then, I am not aware of [birth in] any realm of misery. This is the consequence of that observance day. === to be continued, connie. #68641 From: connie Date: Tue Feb 20, 2007 8:11 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (30) nichiconn Dear Sisters Enthusiasts, Uttamaa, part two: "Kilesaa jhaapitaa mayha.m {, bhavaa sabbe samuuhataa; naagiiva bandhana.m chetvaa, viharaami anaasavaa. "Svaagata.m vata me aasi, buddhase.t.thassa santike; tisso vijjaa anuppattaa, kata.m buddhassa saasana.m. "Pa.tisambhidaa catasso, vimokkhaapi ca a.t.thime; cha.labhi~n~naa sacchikataa,} kata.m buddhassa saasanan"ti. My defilements are burnt out, {all [future] births are completely destroyed. Having severed my bonds like an elephant, I live without taints. Welcome indeed was the presence of the Best of Buddhas to me. I have attained the three true knowledges. I have done the Buddha's teaching. The four discriminations and also the eight liberations are mine. I have realized the six direct knowledges.} I have done the Buddha's teaching. arahatta.m pana patvaa attano pa.tipatti.m paccavekkhitvaa udaanavasena- 42. "catukkhattu.m pa~ncakkhattu.m, vihaaraa upanikkhami.m; aladdhaa cetaso santi.m, citte avasavattinii. 43. "Saa bhikkhuni.m upaagacchi.m, yaa me saddhaayikaa ahu; saa me dhammamadesesi, khandhaayatanadhaatuyo. 44. "Tassaa dhamma.m su.nitvaana, yathaa ma.m anusaasi saa; sattaaha.m ekapalla"nkena, nisiidi.m piitisukhasamappitaa; a.t.thamiyaa paade pasaaresi.m, tamokhandha.m padaaliyaa"ti.- Imaa gaathaa abhaasi. After attaining Arahatship and looking over her attainment, she spoke these verses as a solemn utterance: 42. Four times, five times I went out from my cell, not having obtained peace of mind, being without self-mastery over the mind. 43. I went up to a bhikkhunii who was fit to be trusted by me. She taught me the Doctrine, the aggregates, the sense bases, and the elements. 44. I heard the Doctrine from her as she instructed me. For seven days I sat in one and the same cross-legged position,consigned to joy and happiness. On the eighth day I stretched forth my feet, having torn asunder the mass of darkness [of ignorance]. Four times, nay, five, I sallied from my cell, And roamed afield to find the peace of mind Long vainly sought, and governance of thoughts I could not bring into captivity. (42) To me she came, that noble Bhikkhunii, Who was my foster-mother in the faith - She taught to me the Norm, wherein I learnt The nature of this transitory self. *150(43) And well I minded all, e'en as she taught. For seven days I sat in Jhaana-joy And ease, cross-legged; on the eighth day at last I stretched my limbs, and went my way serene, For I had burst asunder the surrounding gloom. (44) *150 Lit., the Khandhas, the nature of sense-perception and the elements of my being. Cf. Ps. xxxviii. for a more literal translation. Tattha saa bhikkhuni.m upaagacchi.m , yaa me saddhaayikaa ahuuti yaa mayaa saddhaatabbaa saddheyyavacanaa ahosi, ta.m bhikkhuni.m saaha.m upagacchi.m upasa"nkami.m, pa.taacaaraatheri.m saddhaaya vadati. "Saa bhikkhunii upagacchi, yaa me saadhayikaa"tipi paa.tho. 43. There, I (saa) went up to (upaagacchi.m) a bhikkhunii who was fit to be trusted (saddhaayikaa) by me (mayaa) means: she was to be trusted (saddhaatabbaa), whose speech should be trusted (saddheyya-vacanaa) by me, I went up to (upagacchi.m), I (saaha.m = saa + aha.m) approaced (upasa"nkami.m) that bhikkhunii. She says this with reference to Therii Pa.taacaaraa. There is also the reading: "That bhikkhunii came up who was the one who made [things] clear to me." Saa pa.taacaaraa bhikkhunii anukampaaya ma.m upagacchi, yaa mayha.m sadatthassa saadhikaati attho. Saa me dhammamadesesi, khandhaayatanadhaatuyoti saa pa.taacaaraa therii "ime pa~ncakkhandhaa, imaani dvaadasaayatanaani, imaa a.t.thaarasa dhaatuyo"ti khandhaadike vibhajitvaa dassentii mayha.m dhamma.m desesi. The bhikkhunii Pa.taacaaraa came up to me out of sympathy, she who was a perfecter of the true goal for me. That is the meaning. She taught me the Doctrine (me dhamma.m adesesi), the aggregates, the sense bases, and the elements (khandhaayatana-dhaatuyo) means: Therii Pa.taacaaraa analyzed the elements of existence, etc, namely, these five aggregates (pa~nca-kkhandhaa), these twelve sense bases (dvaadasaayatanaani), and these eighteen elements (a.t.thaarasa dhaatuyo); showing [them], she taught me the Doctrine (mayha.m dhamma.m desesi). Tassaa dhamma.m su.nitvaanaati tassaa pa.tisambhidaappattaaya theriyaa santike khandhaadivibhaagapubba"ngama.m ariyamagga.m paapetvaa desitasa.nhasukhumavipassanaadhamma.m sutvaa. Yathaa ma.m anusaasi saati saa therii yathaa ma.m anusaasi ovadi, tathaa pa.tipajjantii pa.tipatti.m matthaka.m paapetvaapi sattaaha.m ekapalla"nkena nisiidi.m. Katha.m? 44. I heard the Doctrine from her means: I heard taught the Doctrine of insight that is subtle and delicate from the therii who had obtained the [four] discriminations, and I reached the noble path, which is preceded by the classification into the aggregates, etc. As she instructed (anusaasi) me means: as that therii instructed me; she instructed (ovadi), so entering upon the practice, I attained the summit, and I sat in one and the same cross-legged position. In what manner? Piitisukhasamappitaati jhaanamayena piitisukhena sama"ngiibhuutaa. A.t.thamiyaa paade pasaaresi.m, tamokhandha.m padaaliyaati anavasesa.m mohakkhandha.m aggamaggena padaaletvaa a.t.thame divase palla"nka.m bhindantii paade pasaaresi.m. Idameva cassaa a~n~naabyaakara.na.m ahosi. Uttamaatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa ni.t.thitaa. Consigned to joy and happiness, meaning, becoming fully possessed of the joy and happiness of an absorption state. On the eighth day (a.t.thamiyaa) I stretched forth my feet, having torn asunder ( padaaliya) the mass of darkness [of ignorance] means: having torn asunder (padaaliya) without remainder the mass of delusion through the highest path, on the eighth day (a.t.thame divase) I broke my cross-legged position and stretched forth my feet, and that, indeed was my declaration of perfect knowledge. Here ends the commentary on the verses by Therii Uttamaa. ==== peace, connie. #68642 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Feb 20, 2007 3:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Music and Lyrics upasaka_howard Hi, James - In a message dated 2/20/07 10:59:17 AM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@... writes: > Hi All, > > I saw something kinda shocking tonight. I went to see the new movie > Music and Lyrics and it has a part where a famous female singer named > Cora dances sexually with Buddhist monks (in an orgy type of way), in > front of a Buddha statue, and sings "I just want my Buddhist orgasm". > Hmmmm…I guess it was supposed to be funny, but no one in the > predominately Buddhist audience where I was laughed. > > But, I just try to tell myself…..It's only seeing and hearing. ;-)) ------------------------------------- Howard: I know you are making a joke here, but you are doing so to make a very important point! A perspective of "only seeing and hearing" would miss essential aspects of reality, especially as regards issues of morality. Paramattha dhammas are not isolated, separated, unrelated entities, and if we see them as such we adopt a terribly limited, skewed and invalid perspective. --------------------------------------- > > Metta, > James > ===================== With metta, Howard #68643 From: TGrand458@... Date: Tue Feb 20, 2007 5:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Objects TGrand458@... In a message dated 2/20/2007 3:50:27 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Hi TG, I've been following all your discussions with interest, especially your ones with Howard and Scott recently. Thank you. TG: That's scary. ;-) --- _TGrand458@..._ (mailto:TGrand458@...) wrote: > In the Visuddhimagga, deeper levels of insight are said to focus on just > the > "fall" of phenomena. This approach brings forth a more comprehensive > Dukkha > outlook and hence raises the level of detachment. We can see all > states as > being a continuous "fall," and the so-called rising being just the > residue of > that falling. ... S: I was interested in this because I heard something similar recently and asked a question about it when we were last in Bkk. Would you kindly give me the Vism ref.? TIA. TG: Chapter 21 subtitle - Knowledge of Contemplation of Dissolution. Metta, Sarah p.s We haven't heard from Ray for ages - I remember he always used to make good comments. If you're in touch, pls encourage him to pop in occasionally. TG: OK. Take care Sarah TG #68644 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Feb 20, 2007 10:44 am Subject: Letters on Vipassana 8, no 3 nilovg Dear friends, You write that you are inclined to slip off the Middle Way. We all do, so long as we are not sotåpannas. I quote from your letter: "I am inclined to think, 'Well, the accumulations to enjoy are there. I might as well indulge as long as I know it is not self doing it, just desire arising'. But often I find that by going ahead and enjoying, somehow there is little awareness and more attachment. On the other hand, by suppressing the desire, such as by taking the eight precepts [1], a feeling of discomfort may be present. But this has the benefit of marking the defilement in a clear way." Again, we cannot set any rule for citta what to decide to do at a particular moment. When we listen to the teachings and consider them we learn about kusala and akusala. When we begin to be aware we come to realize that there are many moments of akusala we did not know of before we studied the Dhamma. We also learn about many different ways of kusala we had not thought of before. When understanding, paññå, develops it will see more often the disadvantage of akusala and the benefit of kusala. When we give in to enjoyment and think, "It is not self", it may be thinking with akusala citta or with kusala citta. When there is no sati and paññå we can use the thought of not self as an excuse not to develop kusala. On the other hand when sati and paññå arise and there is awareness of desire as a conditioned reality, not self, the citta is kusala. You find that the eight precepts bring you discomfort. Nobody else can tell you to take them or not to take them. We should find out what the cittas are like which decide to take them. Do we cling to our own kusala, do we want to be perfect immediately? You may find that you notice your attachment to a soft chair or a soft bed more clearly when you take the eight precepts, but what about attachment after seeing or hearing now? Should we not find out about this so that we have less ignorance? Sincerity is indispensable for the development of satipaììhåna. One has to be truthful with regard to the different cittas which arise, be they akusala or kusala. We need sati-sampajañña, sati and paññå, so that we shall know whether there is at this moment kusala citta or akusala citta. ------------ 1. Laypeople can, in addition to the five precepts, take three more precepts on special days such as the full moon day. These include not eating after midday, not using high and soft beds or chairs, not using adornments or perfumes. ********* Nina. #68645 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Feb 20, 2007 10:35 am Subject: Rupas, preface, 1. nilovg Dear friends, Our evening reading is now 'The Buddhist Teaching on Physical Phenomena' and I shall post this in parts. The Buddhist Teaching on Physical Phenomena Preface That which is made of iron, wood or hemp is not a strong bond, say the wise; (but) that longing for jewels, ornaments, children and wives is far greater an attachment. Dhammapada (vs. 345). Attachment to people and possessions is strong, almost irresistable. We are infatuated by what we see, hear, smell, taste, experience through the bodysense and through the mind. However, all the different things we experience do not last. We lose people who are dear to us and we lose our possessions. We can find out that attachment leads to sorrow, but at the moments of attachment we do not want to accept the truth of the impermanence of all things. We want pleasant objects for ourselves, and we consider the “self” the most important thing in the world. Through the Buddhist teachings we learn that what we take for “self”, for “our mind” and for “our body”, consists of changing phenomena. That part of the Buddhist teachings which is the “Abhidhamma” enumerates and classifies all phenomena of our life: mental phenomena or nåma and physical phenomena or rúpa. Seeing is nåma, it experiences visible object through the eye-door. Visible object or colour is rúpa, it does not experience anything. The eyesense, which functions as the eye-door through which visible object is experienced, is also rúpa. The rúpas that are the sense objects of visible object, sound, smell, flavour and tangible object and the rúpas that are the sense organs of eyes, ears, nose, tongue and bodysense, are conditions for the nåmas which experience objects. Nåma and rúpa are interrelated. Nåma and rúpa are ultimate realities. We should know the difference between ultimate truth and conventional truth. Conventional truth is the world of concepts such as person, tree or animal. Before we learnt about Buddhism, conventional truth, the world of concepts, was the only truth we knew. It is useful to examine the meaning of concept, in Påli: paññatti. The word concept can stand for the name or term that conveys an idea and it can also stand for the idea itself conveyed by a term. Thus, the name “tree” is a concept, and also the idea we form up of “tree” is a concept. A tree is actually a conglomeration of things; the component parts are just different rúpas. The rúpas of which a tree consists do not last, they arise and fall away. Through the eyes only the rúpa that is visible object or colour can be experienced; through touch hardness, another type of rúpa, can be experienced. Visible object and hardness are ultimate realities, paramattha dhammas, each with their own characteristic. These characteristics do not change, they can be experienced without having to name them. Colour is always colour, hardness is always hardness, even when we give them another name. ***** Nina. #68646 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Feb 20, 2007 11:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Music and Lyrics nilovg Hi Howard and James, do you remember Tissa who went on his way and when a girl was laughing, just attended to the bones of her teeth? That is only visible object, and at such a moment there is indriya samvara siila, higher siila guarding the indriyas, the sense faculties. The doorways are guarded. Sila and satipatthana go together. I wish I could convey this to James. I did not see any joke in James remark: it is only seeing and hearing. Although he put a smiley, I got it in another way. I felt happy reading it.Yes, this is the truth. By conditions one is in such situation of seeing and hearing awful things as James described, but, when there is mindfulness of seeing, and there is seeing which experiences only colour, the eyedoor is guarded. James, a monk should remember this at all times, he may also be in difficult situations. I read another example in the Visuddhimagga about a woman offering food and paying respect to a monk. People asked him whether he had seen who it was and he answered that he did not know whether it was a man or a woman, he did not pay attention. Howard: --------- N: No, on the contrary, it does help. Only conditioned dhammas, not attaching so much importance to them. Try it! ------------ H: Paramatthadhammas are not isolated, separated, unrelated entities ---------- N: Here I know what you mean, we do not separate paramattha dhammas from the world of persons. But there are moments that it is better not to pay much attention to persons, as the case demands. Next moment there is an opportunity to help others, and we like to do this as much as we can. Let us relate to others with kusala citta. Nina. Op 20-feb-2007, om 17:18 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Howard: > I know you are making a joke here, but you are doing so to make a very > important point! A perspective of "only seeing and hearing" would miss > essential aspects of reality, especially as regards issues of > morality. Paramattha > dhammas are not isolated, separated, unrelated entities, and if we > see them as > such we adopt a terribly limited, skewed and invalid perspective. #68647 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Feb 20, 2007 7:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Music and Lyrics upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and James) - In a message dated 2/20/07 2:43:53 PM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard and James, > do you remember Tissa who went on his way and when a girl was > laughing, just attended to the bones of her teeth? That is only > visible object, and at such a moment there is indriya samvara siila, > higher siila guarding the indriyas, the sense faculties. The doorways > are guarded. Sila and satipatthana go together. I wish I could convey > this to James. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: The deconstruction technique to avoid certain types of desire and clinging was certainly recommended by the Buddha. It is a skillful means in guarding the senses. However, I would point out two things: 1) The teeth, and even the image of teeth, is not visible object - it is pa~n~natti! 2) It is not only pa~n~natti we desire and cling to. We crave and are attached to pleasant sensations - we cling to vedanas and rupas. So, much more than the pa~n~natti/paramattha-dhamma distinction is needed to free ourselves from the three poisons. ----------------------------------------------- > I did not see any joke in James remark: it is only seeing and > hearing. Although he put a smiley, I got it in another way. I felt > happy reading it.Yes, this is the truth. ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Humor can be quite serious, Nina. I may be wrong, but I think you may well have missed James' point, which I think to be quite the opposite of what you took it to be. If not, then I misread it, and I stand corrected in that regard. -------------------------------------------------- > > By conditions one is in such situation of seeing and hearing awful > things as James described, but, when there is mindfulness of seeing, > and there is seeing which experiences only colour, the eyedoor is > guarded. James, a monk should remember this at all times, he may also > be in difficult situations. > I read another example in the Visuddhimagga about a woman offering > food and paying respect to a monk. People asked him whether he had > seen who it was and he answered that he did not know whether it was a > man or a woman, he did not pay attention. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Would a Buddha also not know and not pay attention? Such avoidance is a technique, Nina, and not something to aspire to. Not paying attention and being unaware of all the facts is not something to admire except as a technique useful in certain circumstances. ----------------------------------------------- > > Howard: essential aspects of reality, especially as regards issues of > morality. > > --------- > N: No, on the contrary, it does help. Only conditioned dhammas, not > attaching so much importance to them. Try it! ---------------------------------------- Howard: Nina, I try everything - all the tecniques taught by the Buddha. I am constantly mindful, and especially of what transpires in my mind. I look for "what actually is" constantly. I am devoted to clear understanding. Of course, I'm far from perfect in this practice, but that goes without saying. ------------------------------------------- > ------------ > H: Paramatthadhammas are not isolated, separated, unrelated entities > ---------- > N: Here I know what you mean, we do not separate paramattha dhammas > from the world of persons. > But there are moments that it is better not to pay much attention to > persons, as the case demands. --------------------------------------------- Howard: Of *course* there are! That is why I call it a skillful means. Here we agree. ---------------------------------------------- > Next moment there is an opportunity to help others, and we like to do > this as much as we can. Let us relate to others with kusala citta. > Nina. > Op 20-feb-2007, om 17:18 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > > >Howard: > >I know you are making a joke here, but you are doing so to make a very > >important point! A perspective of "only seeing and hearing" would miss > >essential aspects of reality, especially as regards issues of > >morality. Paramattha > >dhammas are not isolated, separated, unrelated entities, and if we > >see them as > >such we adopt a terribly limited, skewed and invalid perspective. > > > ========================= With metta, Howard #68648 From: "colette" Date: Tue Feb 20, 2007 9:24 am Subject: Re: Mephistopheles, Why Not Merlin, or eventhe author of the Goetia? ksheri3 Good Morning Scott, A few minutes this morning to try to delve into your thoughtful reply. Not to mention that Faust sold his soul to > Mephistopheles for knowledge, which seemed somehow relevant at the > time although why this was so escapes me now.) colette: I'm so glad you picked up on this and brought it out. While I was away during last summer I used to sit outside and watching the sky. I was amazed about being out of the city, no obstructions, the clouds building amongst themselves, etc, but then I would also get into the CONTRAILS (those lines of exhaust smoke, vapor, in the sky) of aircraft and people would almost laugh at my concentration. I always amazed them by telling them such things as "each one of those single dots in the sky represent hundreds of people" and sometimes, to the more intelligent person would tell them that a Single dot represents hundreds of dots, we can find this in our supposed Democratic governmental structure. you choose to focus on what Faust did with an imaginary object, a hallucination. We can look at our legal system and discover that it happens every day: people buying and selling imaginary products or products that never did and never will exist. For instance we can go to "the future price of a head of cattle that hasn't been born yet" (you can find this activity on the Hang Seng market in Hong Kong or the CBOT in Chicago) This is how Faust represented a concept. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Hi colette, > > c: "that Mephistopheles intro caught my eye and so I had to read more." > > Mephistopheles seemed an antithetical epithet to the one chosen for me > by Herman, so I used it. (Not to mention that Faust sold his soul to > Mephistopheles for knowledge, which seemed somehow relevant at the > time although why this was so escapes me now.) Merlin may have been > better, at least the old man who was enthralled by, was it Morgan la > Fay? I'm forgetting my Morte d'Arthur. I love The Once and Future > King. I don't even know the author of Goetia but I'm sure this person > would have served well the cause since I was goofing around... > > Blathered I to Herman: "Yeah, if I'm following you, consciousness is > momentary, variegated, object-related and the 'next' moment is never > the same as the last hence there can be no 'consciousness in general'." > > colette: "darn, only a few minutes at this time but I intend on > staying out in the cold so that I can get another computer later. > > "'object-related', now I'm working on this thing called consciousness > through the Yogacara teachings, something that is "related to" > another thing then would be a CONDITIONED THING, no?" > > I don't know the Yogaacaara teachings. In the Pa.t.thaana, which I > don't know well either, the 'conditioning thing' is said to be related > to the 'conditioned' thing. colette: last entry for a while but you should certainly read the ENTIRE ABHIDHARMA. Conditioned thing, the conditioning is a process of MIND ONLY in relation to the other 5 sense consciousnesses, which is where they get the descriptions of feelings of pleasure, pain, and indifference. Three categories of which a conditioned thing can be placed. But this conditioned thing can change it's appearance, QUALITIES, BECAUSE IT IS MIND ONLY. thus, in the act of transformation, the mind can and does recreate, re-manifest, re- animate, this object to fit into it's sense consciousnesses. no time sorry, I'll be back later. toodles, colette <.....> #68649 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Tue Feb 20, 2007 1:17 pm Subject: [dsg] Computer programming /was Re: Acceptance speech ken_aitch Hi Herman, Thanks for your reply; it boosts my faith in computer boffins. However, there seems to be a problem: --------------- H: > . . . I would recommend a swift kick to the gonads of any MD who dares to tell their patient how much longer they have to live. Such an MD is no different to a kamma specialist. How dare they?? Humbug!! ---------------- Traceback (most recent call last): < . . .> File "C:\Python25\ HermansMessage.py ", line 4, in __init__ self.MD = deserver of swift kick NameError: absolute value cannot be assigned to a concept ------------------------ I think my computer is saying that we can't know the mind of an MD. Sometimes their motives are kusala, sometimes they are akusala. There can be no rule for knowing which way their mind is working in any conventional situation. -------------- > > I hear you are working on a program that converts concepts > into realities. :-) H: > I am much more interested in you as who you are, the man who wrote a program in Mallard Basic, the man who has a dying beach friend, the man who designed his own house, the man I will meet and have at least one (or perhaps two) light beers with before I am 70, than I am in how you explain that these things are happening. --------------- Thank you for the kind words, but you really must become interested in paramattha dhammas! They are the only way of making sense of the world. Ken H #68650 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Tue Feb 20, 2007 1:30 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Persons egberdina Hi TG, On 20/02/07, TGrand458@... wrote: > Hi Herman > I guess the question for me would be... is the Buddha's statement an > issue of "for all practical purposes," or is it an impossibility to feel without > perceiving? For if there were no difference between feeling and perceiving, > there would be no point in having two categories. I'd be interested in your > remarks Herman. > My take on the matter is that perception, feeling and consciousness happen all the time together, in parallel. We can certainly pay attention to certain aspects of consciousness, perception and feeling, and we can only do so serially, one at a time. But this paying attention to one thing as a foreground is always with the other processes still occuring in the background. All differentiated states of consciousness are not known absolutely, but in the context of the "soup" in which they occur, and on which they depend. Needless to say, the theory that does the rounds here of only one nama/rupa at a time is the epitome of scholastic bunkum to me :-) Kind Regards Herman #68651 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Tue Feb 20, 2007 1:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Persons egberdina Hey Scott, On 20/02/07, Scott Duncan wrote: > Hi Howard, > > H: "I'm sorry - I'm not following you. Would you say more, please?" > > Sure. Would you like to discuss 'persons' in relation to adosa? > If you want to say something about persons in relation to adosa, I'm all ears. But seeing as I am only inferring you to be a person (you could be a computer bot written by KenH) perhaps you could say something about adosa in relation to something we have in common and that we don't have to infer, this post for example. Just a thought. Kind Regards Herman #68652 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Tue Feb 20, 2007 1:46 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Acceptance speech egberdina Hi Sarah, On 20/02/07, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Herman, > Thank you for all that you wrote. I agree with everything you wrote. Which means that you also agree with me, that there is no sati involved in conceiving of a woman and conceiving of rules of how she must behave. I have snipped the rest of your post for brevity only. Kind Regards Herman #68653 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Tue Feb 20, 2007 1:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Some Idle Thoughts on Nothing egberdina Hi Sukin, On 18/02/07, Sukinder wrote: > Hi Herman, > > > > > There is no control over what the object will be and what the roots. > > > > I do not believe that this is useful to discuss. Because whether it is > > the case or not, it makes no difference to anything. You are basically > > saying that both the arising of the question "What is the reality of > > the present moment?" and whatever the answer of the moment will > be, > > are given. So what? I ask that seriously, not in a dismissive way. > > I often have difficulty understanding your statements, too cryptic and > philosophical sometimes? It is the same here. Do you mean to say that > you read me as saying that 'everything that arises in the moment is > already determined by/in the citta that went before'? > Yes, when you say "There is no control over what the object will be and what the roots" I read you as saying that everything that arises in the moment is already determined by/in the citta that went before'? Have I misunderstood you? Kind Regards Herman #68654 From: han tun Date: Tue Feb 20, 2007 2:21 pm Subject: Daana Corner (03) hantun1 Dear Dhamma Friends, This is taken from “Dana: The Practice of Giving” compiled and edited by Bhikkhu Bodhi. The following is the end-part of Introduction by Bhikkhu Bodhi. Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ------------------------------ Regarded from another angle, giving can also be identified with the personal quality of generosity (caga). This angle highlights the practice of giving, not as the outwardly manifest act by which an object is transferred from oneself to others, but as the inward disposition to give, a disposition which is strengthened by outward acts of giving and which in turn makes possible still more demanding acts of self-sacrifice. Generosity is included among the essential attributes of the sappurisa, the good or superior person, along with such other qualities as faith, morality, learning and wisdom. Viewed as the quality of generosity, giving has a particularly intimate connection to the entire movement of the Buddha's path. For the goal of the path is the destruction of greed, hate and delusion, and the cultivation of generosity directly debilitates greed and hate, while facilitating that pliancy of mind that allows for the eradication of delusion. The present Wheel publication has been compiled in order to explore in greater depth this cardinal Buddhist virtue, the practice of giving, which in writings on applied Buddhism is so often taken for granted that it is usually passed over without comment. In this issue four practicing Buddhists of today, all of whom combine textual knowledge of the Buddha's teachings with a personal commitment to the path, set forth their understanding of the various aspects of giving and examine it in relation to the wider body of Dhamma practice. The collection concludes with a translation of an older document — the description of the Bodhisatta's practice of giving by the medieval commentator, Acariya Dhammapala. This has been extracted from his Treatise on the Paramis, found in his commentary to the Cariyapitaka. [The End of Introduction by Bhikkhu Bodhi.] -------------------- Will start “The Practice of Giving” by Susan Elbaum Jootla in the next post. Han #68655 From: "robmoult" Date: Tue Feb 20, 2007 2:31 pm Subject: Re: shell-shock, is there an explanation in the abhidhamma? robmoult Hi Ben, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ben O'Loughlin" wrote: > Dear Rob > > Thanks very much for that explanation. And my apologies I didn't > respond sooner. The demands of a small family being what they are! > > It is interesting what you say about pakatupanissaya-paccaya. For a > while I was the archivist at a hospital in melbourne that had its > genesis as a army general hospital where wounded soldiers were > treated after returning from the Dardenelles and France during the > Great War. I remember reading the story of one doctor who attempted > to treat shell-shock by getting patients to dig trenches during the > night in full combat-kit and at dawn the doctor would blow a whistle > and the patients had to scramble over the top. As you can imagine, > the therapy wasn't a roaring success. However, the doctor's heart > was in the right place. > That article by Richard Davidson looks interesting. If you have the > citation I would greatly appreciate it. > Metta > > Ben > ===== Sorry for the late reply as I have been away from my computer for a week. Here is a Wikipedia link on Richard Davidson which has links to some articles by and about him. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_J._Davidson Metta, Rob M :-) #68656 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Tue Feb 20, 2007 2:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Computer programming /was Re: Acceptance speech egberdina Hi KenH, > H: > . . . I would > recommend a swift kick to the gonads of any MD who dares to tell their > patient how much longer they have to live. Such an MD is no different > to a kamma specialist. How dare they?? Humbug!! > ---------------- > > Traceback (most recent call last): < . . .> > File "C:\Python25\ HermansMessage.py ", line 4, in __init__ > self.MD = deserver of swift kick > NameError: absolute value cannot be assigned to a concept > > ------------------------ > > I think my computer is saying that we can't know the mind of an MD. > Sometimes their motives are kusala, sometimes they are akusala. There > can be no rule for knowing which way their mind is working in any > conventional situation. > Your computer is pretty clever. Not only can we not know the mind of an MD, we cannot know the MD's body either. And that would work for the MD in relation to their patient as well. Given the enormous complexities and interrelationships of the human being, it is best to leave predictions of a time of death out altogether. Conversely, making such a prediction is a display of astounding misplaced confidence in one's own knowledge. Which leads me to another point. There is a Buddha who is made to make predictions about the rebirth destinations of various poor unfortunates he is made to encounter. Such a Buddha is a quack, and he is at odds with Sarah and Nina and others, who rightly say that sati can arise at anytime. The deterministic Buddha denies this possibility, and he is rightly given a wide berth. Enough already :-) Kind Regards Herman #68657 From: "Phil" Date: Tue Feb 20, 2007 4:47 pm Subject: Re: Music and Lyrics philofillet Hi Nina and all > do you remember Tissa who went on his way and when a girl was > laughing, just attended to the bones of her teeth? That is only > visible object, and at such a moment there is indriya samvara siila, > higher siila guarding the indriyas, the sense faculties. The doorways > are guarded. Nina, this is an inspirational sutta, but it is about an ariyan. (An arahat, if I recall.) If we take the attainments of ariyans as models for our approach to guarding the sense doors, we will go very wrong, I think. They can inspire us, to show us where the path leads, and that is something valuable. But we are not Tissa. The Buddha made many, many discourses in which a more practical approach to guarding the sense doors is explicitly taught, the kind of approach that is suitable for busy householders who are not ariyans. I will be posting a lot about these suttas, I think. I know you appreciate these suttas too - I think of your excellent series on "removal of distracting thoughts." That is about guarding the sense doors, cutting off unwholesome proliferation. It is only one of many, many, many... (I think everyone knows this, but when the Buddha taught about guarding the sense doors, it was not usually about averting the eyes, that sort of thing, though there are teachings like that, for monks. Guarding the sense doors refers far more often to cutting off proliferation that arises from sense door objects. And it is right near the beginning of the gradual training, a topic that busy householders should be considering all the time ("often","repeatedly" as the translations have it) if they are as serious about their practice as it is possible for busy householders to be.) Metta, Phil p.s >Sila and satipatthana go together. I wish I could convey > this to James. The kind of sila you refer to above is not relevant to busy householders. It is not wise to be too interested in it, in my opinion. If we rely on or aspire to the sila of ariyans to guard the sense doors we are leaving ourselves in great danger, there is a lack of appamada, heedfulness, that the Buddha told us to have, in his last words. Sorry if I sound too aggressive about this, but I am feeling a lot of faith in the guidance the Buddha gives to busy householders, guidance that is all (or largely) about guarding the sense doors for the sake of morality (or morality for the sake of guarding the sense doors, in some suttas) rather than rare moments of extraordinary satipatthana. #68658 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Feb 20, 2007 5:01 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Persons scottduncan2 Hey Herman, H: "If you want to say something about persons in relation to adosa, I'm all ears." How very kind of you! H: "But seeing as I am only inferring you to be a person (you could be a computer bot written by KenH) perhaps you could say something about adosa in relation to something we have in common and that we don't have to infer, this post for example. Just a thought." The above encapsulates my gratitude for what I felt was your kindness to me. Assuming that the only real things in all this are gratitude and kindness ( and I'm assuming the latter to have motivated you and could, therefore, be incorrect but...), there are still two 'persons' to contend with. Over to you, my good man. Sincerely, Scott. #68659 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:10 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Persons egberdina Hi Scott, On 21/02/07, Scott Duncan wrote: > Hey Herman, > > > How very kind of you! > > > The above encapsulates my gratitude for what I felt was your kindness > to me. Assuming that the only real things in all this are gratitude > and kindness ( and I'm assuming the latter to have motivated you and > could, therefore, be incorrect but...), there are still two 'persons' > to contend with. I guess we'll never go wrong if we assume kindness and gratitude on each other's behalf. I do not assume, however, that the only real things in this are gratitude and kindness. I do not for a moment think that these affective or intentional states are somehow free-floating or disembodied. All that is necessary for gratitude and kindness to be manifest is as real as you can get. Is that what you meant when seeking to discuss persons in relation to adosa? Kind Regards Herman #68660 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:29 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Ariyan sangha egberdina Hi Jon, > > > > Does the Sangha, as community of enlightened ones, have any members? > > > > Yes, I presume so. > I suspect that the presumption of an ariyna sangha is as close as we're going to get :-) You seem to be implying that conventional ariyans who haved passed away, somehow still are, or otherwise you are suggesting that there are living ariyans today? Have I got that right? > I've seen Howard's post to you on this thread, so I'd like to add the > following: In the ultimate sense, the ariyan sangha means the path > consciousness (magga citta), i.e., the transcendental consciousness that > arises at the moment of enlightenment. It is this dhamma that one > recollects/pays respect to in recollecting/paying respect to the ariyan > sangha. > Displacing the question from a conventional realm to an ultimate realm doesn't really alter the substance of my question. Whether it's an embodied ariyan, or an ariyan citta, the question is, is there one? If there isn't, the ariyan sangha seems no different than a tomb to an unknown soldier. It is a placeholder for hommage in general, for qualities that are presumed to have been, but that certainly cannot be recollected, for they are not known. Kind Regards Herman #68661 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Tue Feb 20, 2007 7:42 pm Subject: [dsg] Computer programming /was Re: Acceptance speech ken_aitch Hi Herman, --------- H: > Your computer is pretty clever. Not only can we not know the mind of an MD, we cannot know the MD's body either. And that would work for the MD in relation to their patient as well. Given the enormous complexities and interrelationships of the human being, it is best to leave predictions of a time of death out altogether. Conversely, making such a prediction is a display of astounding misplaced confidence in one's own knowledge. -------- A medical diagnosis is not a paramattha dhamma. Therefore, it has no inherent paramattha characteristics. For example, it is neither kusala nor akusala. Therefore, medical diagnoses are outside the scope of the Buddha's teaching. Philosophical opinions about them are not Dhamma. They are "armchair philosophy" – AKA "parlour talk." You might remember I took you to task recently over parlour talk. It is not conducive to progress on the Path. ---------------- H: > Which leads me to another point. There is a Buddha who is made to make predictions about the rebirth destinations of various poor unfortunates he is made to encounter. Such a Buddha is a quack, and he is at odds with Sarah and Nina and others, who rightly say that sati can arise at anytime. The deterministic Buddha denies this possibility, and he is rightly given a wide berth. ---------------- Dhammas can arise at any time when there are conditions for them to arise. A Buddha knows everything there is to know about conditions. I don't think you, or any of us, should decide the ancient texts are wrong (or quackery) until we have understood what they are saying. Ken H #68662 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Feb 20, 2007 3:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Computer programming /was Re: Acceptance speech upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and Herman) - In a message dated 2/20/07 10:43:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, ken_aitch@... writes: > A medical diagnosis is not a paramattha dhamma. Therefore, it has no > inherent paramattha characteristics. For example, it is neither > kusala nor akusala. > -------------------------------------- Howard: You might take that up with the Buddha who, in the Sammaditthi Sutta, wrote the following: _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Killing living beings is unwholesome; taking what is not given is unwholesome; misconduct in sensual pleasures is unwholesome; false speech is unwholesome; malicious speech is unwholesome; harsh speech is unwholesome; gossip is unwholesome; covetousness is unwholesome; ill will is unwholesome; wrong view is unwholesome. This is called the unwholesome. & And what is the wholesome? Abstention from killing living beings is wholesome; abstention from taking what is not given is wholesome; abstention from misconduct in sensual pleasures is wholesome; abstention from false speech is wholesome; abstention from malicious speech is wholesome; abstention from harsh speech is wholesome; abstention from gossip is wholesome; non-covetousness is wholesome; non-ill will is wholesome; right view is wholesome. This is called the wholesome. _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Being fixated on paramattha dhammas cuts one off from important aspects of the Dhamma, Ken. With metta, Howard #68663 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Feb 20, 2007 9:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Acceptance speech sarahprocter... Hi Herman, I'd like to persist with this discussion a little further if I may. Thank you for your gentle comments:-) --- Herman Hofman wrote: > Thank you for all that you wrote. I agree with everything you wrote. > Which means that you also agree with me, that there is no sati > involved in conceiving of a woman and conceiving of rules of how she > must behave. .... S: Just to clarify: 1. I didn't quite agree with you as you suggest. 2. I said that sati arises with all sobhana cittas and gave some examples. 3. I indicated that therefore, sati also arises with sobhana cittas when a concept is an object. 4. To give a simple example of this, take compassion. When compassion arises, the object is always a being, thus a concept. Sati arises with the compassion. 5. Therefore, when 'conceiving a woman' or 'conceiving of rules of how she must behave', there can be sati and certainly would have been in the case of arahants at the First Council. For them, no more kilesa which means all the javana cittas were sobhana. 6. Of course, for us worldlings, usually sati (of any level) does not arise in the javana cittas because akusala is so much more common. 7. You are right if you are suggesting that there cannot be moments of sati (of satipatthana)when the object of the mind-door process is a concept. This applies to arahants too. No one, not even a Buddha, can have satipatthana at every moment. 8. When we say that there can be sati (of satipatthana) at any time, it means that even whilst conceiving a woman, conceiving rules, seeing, hearing and so on, there are realities which can instantly be the object of awareness, slipping in immediately and taking the conceiving, seeing, hearing or other reality as object - i.e any nama or rupa. ***** S: Let's hear if you are still in aggreement and if so, where the problem is. Metta Sarah p.s I'm glad to read your discussions with James - pls keep sharing them with us. ======= #68664 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Feb 20, 2007 10:45 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Some Thoughts on the Sectarians Sutta (AN 3.61) sarahprocter... Hi Ken H, --- ken_aitch wrote: > Hi Howard, > > I am out of my depth with the Tittha Sutta; I don't know if it deals > with all sectarian guilds or just three of them. I think that it > might be the latter, and that they are the sectarian guilds that side > with annihilationism. .... S: BB gives this note: "The first view, that all experience is the result of past kamma, is ascribed by the Buddhists to the Jains. The third view, which denies the role of human effort, was taught by Makkhali Gosala, a contemporary of the Buddha, who held that all events were governed by fate (see DN2; MN76). This doctrine, as well as that of inaction, belongs to the 'wrong views with fixed destiny' (niyata-micchaa-di.t.thi), i.e views leading to a bad rebirth." We had some discussions before about these views which in effect all deny kamma, conditions and kammic results leading to views of 'acausalism' (ahetukavaada), 'inefficacy of action' (akiriyavaada) and moral 'nihilism' (natthikavaada): http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/66400 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/64562 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/49984 Here's another quote from the Sammanaphala sutta commentary which you'll like because it stresses the importance of the view, i.e the understanding, rather than the posture or the concentration: "When people accept these theories and then recite and investigate them while sitting in their day-quarters or night-quarters, wrong mindfulness becomes established, taking as object (one of the three views): 'No evil is done,' or 'There is no cause or condition,' or 'The dead are annihilated.' The mind becomes one-pointed. The impulsions run their course. At the first impulsion these people are curable; and so too at the second, etc. But at the seventh they cannot be cured even by the Buddhas; they cannot be turned back." .... >If I am right, there could be a complimentary > sutta that deals with eternalist sectarian guilds. .... S: I think the Sammanaphala Sutta continues with eternalist beliefs. "Pakudha Kaccaayana said to me: 'Great King, there are seven bodies that are unmade, unfashioned, uncreated, without a creator, barren, stable as a mountain peak, standing firm like a pillar. They do not alter, do not change, do not obstruct one another; they are incapable of causing one another either pleasure or pain, or both pleasure and pain. What are the seven? The body of earth...water..fire...air, pleasure, pain and the soul as the seventh." Also, cf in the Brahmajala Sutta under 'eternalism' (sassatavaada): " 'he speaks thus; 'The self and the world are eternal, barren, steadfast as a mountain peak, standing firm like a pillar. And though these beings roam and wander (through the round of existence), pass away and re-arise, yet the self and the world remain the same just like eternity itself." It goes on to say that those with these people with the highest of conentration abilities (i.e jhana)who can recollect past lives may reflect: 'Because I, by means of ardour, endeavour, application, diligence, and right reflection, attain to such a degree of mental concentration that with my mind thus concentrated, I recollect my numerous past lives in their modes and their details. For this reason I know this: the self and the world are eternal.....etc'". Others who've studied these views in more detail may add more. Metta, Sarah p.s Best wishes for your sick surfer friend. I liked an extract on equanimity in the 'Perfections' quotes Nina recently posted to me - again emphasising reflections on kamma conditioning equanimity. Not that this is any prescription for a way to think, otherwise we go off-track again:-). ================ #68665 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Tue Feb 20, 2007 10:53 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Computer programming /was Re: Acceptance speech egberdina Hey KenH, As one computer hack to another, this post doesn't compile, On 21/02/07, ken_aitch wrote: > Hi Herman, > > > A medical diagnosis is not a paramattha dhamma. Therefore, it has no > inherent paramattha characteristics. For example, it is neither > kusala nor akusala. > > Therefore, medical diagnoses are outside the scope of the Buddha's > teaching. Philosophical opinions about them are not Dhamma. They > are "armchair philosophy" – AKA "parlour talk." You might remember I > took you to task recently over parlour talk. It is not conducive to > progress on the Path. You might remember a reply I sent, to do with "parlour thinking"? The following is a great example. > > Dhammas can arise at any time when there are conditions for them to > arise. A Buddha knows everything there is to know about conditions. > I don't think you, or any of us, should decide the ancient texts are > wrong (or quackery) until we have understood what they are saying. > This is where the compiler crashes with a stack overflow. You see, a Buddha is not a paramattha dhamma, and neither are some old texts. If you're going to insist that my code should be written in assembly language, which I am quite happy to do, could I ask you to stop submitting stuff in Parlour Thinking Basic. Please set your assembler directives accordingly :-) Kind Regards Herman #68666 From: "Phil" Date: Tue Feb 20, 2007 10:57 pm Subject: Re: Daana Corner (01) philofillet Hello Han and all (p.s to Antony Woods) When, as we see below, the Buddha introduced his teaching to newcomers by talking about dana, was the context always about dana to support the sangha? Sometimes in this day and age we see teachings about spiritual generosity being a kind of dana. Thich Nhat Hahn goes as far as to say that one's presence, one's smile, can be dana. Does that sort of teaching originate from the Buddha or is it just modern day feelgoodism? I imagine these questions will be answered in the posts to come, so sorry for getting ahead of things. Thanks in advane. Metta, Phil p.s Antony, you had a Yahoo group on dana. I couldn't find it by searching under "dana" - is it still running? >Whenever the > Buddha delivered a discourse to an audience of people > who had not yet come to regard him as their teacher, > he would start by emphasizing the value of giving. > Only after his audience had come to appreciate this > virtue would he introduce other aspects of his > teaching, such as morality, the law of kamma, and the > benefits in renunciation, and only after all these > principles had made their impact on the minds of his > listeners would he expound to them that unique > discovery of the Awakened Ones, the Four Noble Truths. > > The Introduction by Bhikkhu Bodhi to be continued. > > Han > #68667 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Tue Feb 20, 2007 10:57 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Computer programming /was Re: Acceptance speech egberdina Hi KenH, > > Thank you for the kind words, but you really must become interested > in paramattha dhammas! They are the only way of making sense of the > world. > If I have not misunderstood everything that is said about paramattha dhammas, isn't it a bit silly to suggest that "I" should do something? And why would a paramattha dhamma want to make sense of itself? Kind Regards Herman #68668 From: "kanchaa" Date: Tue Feb 20, 2007 11:06 pm Subject: Where does Anger start from? kanchuu2003 Dear All, Hello! I was curious today about Anger.... Can anyone explain where does anger start and where does it end?? What is its role in a life? I would be very thankful.. Sincerely, Nitesh #68669 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Feb 20, 2007 11:11 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Idle Thoughts on Nothing sarahprocter... Hi Howard, Back to the Sabba Sutta: --- upasaka@... wrote: > > S: What I wrote, particularly "In the Sabba Sutta, only those dhammas > > presently arising can be known as the 'All'" indicates clearly that > this > > is it - all that can be known. Just the dhammas included in the > ayatanas - > > i.e presently arising cittas, cetasikas and rupas. Naturally, a > Buddha's > > 'All' is another matter. > > > ========================= H:> In the Sabba Sutta, the Buddha never restricts the category of > persons > he is referring to. .... S: The commentary makes it clear that the 'All' refers to all dhammas of the 4 planes - the three mundane planes and the supramundane plane. In other words, 'all' that can ever be known by any of his audience. As you'll appreciate from your phenomenalist approach, the 'all' for us refers to the dhammas which can be directly known at the present moment i.e only dhammas which arise and appear. .... >He never says this pertains to worldlings. ... S: No and I didn't either:-) I could have said: 'presently arising cittas, cetasikas and rupas AND nibbana if that is presently the object of a citta:-). .... >He seems > to > say that this "All" is literally ALL. ... S: It includes all the ayatanas - the coming together of any dhammas experiencing and experienced (including nibbana if applicable!). What I said it excluded was the wider 'all' only known by the Buddha's omniscience. This would include any dhammas, any dhammas at all - past, future or present without any limit. ........ > From my perspective, "the All" misperceived is samsara, and "the > All" > correctly perceived is nibbana. ... S: Sorry, but this doesn't make any sense to me....Is this what you read in the sutta when it talks about 'The eye and forms....etc'? It doesn't sound like your usual comments, Howard. ... >In any case, the gist of this sutta, it > seems > to me, is a pragmatic-phenomenalist one that asserts that whatever is > claimed > to exist beyond experience "lies beyond range" and should not be > considered as > existent, i.e. as part of the "All". .... S: Fine - so fronm this 'pragmatic-phenomenalist' gist, is it really nibbana which is the 'correctly perceived' All now? Metta, Sarah ======== #68670 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Feb 20, 2007 11:38 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A cremation, just like now! sarahprocter... Dear Nina, I had meant to thank you for sharing Lodewijk's comments and change of heart on this topic. --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Lodewijk still had uneasiness about the fact that when we asked: 'How > was Kh Charupan's cremation' KH Sujin answered; just like now, > seeing, hearing.' He found this so harsh, it seemed an approach > without kindness, we are humans after all, living in this world > together with our fellowmen. He kept those strong feelings but today > there was a happening. <...> > Afterwards we were standing in a long queue to walk past the coffin. > I said to Lodewijk: it is just like now: there is seeing, hearing, > what else can we do but considering these realities. But this is not > cold, harsh, unfriendly at all. Lodewijk said to me that he was > thinking exactly the same at those moments we were sitting there and > listening, and that Kh Sujin was absolutely right. .... S: As I mentioned last year when you mentioned you some comments seemed harsh, it really is all in the thoughts of the listener. When we have 'strong feelings' or reactions, the reality is the dosa or thinking at that moment, conditioned by our accumulations for such. Another time we may welcome the same comments, even perhaps 'No Nina, no Lodewijk' in time!! You also mentioned the concern you both have that some of your Dhamma endeavours may not be appreciated. Perhaps again we can use such times of worry or clinging to understand these kilesa better when they arise. This is all daily life - common 'gain and loss', 'ups and downs'. Sometimes with our audio editing we lose entire bits of work and have to start again - just like in any job or household life with attachment when it goes as we'd like and aversion when it doesn't. We had lots of frustration as you know whilst trying to write the article recently - but it helps a lot to know that such frustration is just accumulated dosa which can be known when it arises and now it's completely gone. it's so useless to 'hang onto' the story about it! And of course, when there's metta or dana or understanding, there's no frustration at all. .... >There are seeing, > hearing, thinking and kusala citta can arise with a degree of > understanding these realities. How could that be unkind? We were > considering realities and we felt kindness towards the family and all > people present. Different types of kusala, and how could these be > contradictory. .... S: Exactly so! Understanding of dhammas such as seeing and hearing leads to less thought and concern for oneself, not more. When there's less concern for oneself, there is more kindness to others. As Ken H said, an appreciation of anatta leads to more compassion, not less. ... >We often speak about what > sati is, he finds it very difficult. But it is difficult for all of > us. I transcribed the K.K. talks and I am reading parts at lunchtime. ... S: Yes, there's lots of good material. Pls quote any parts that Lodewijk found helpful. He asked good questions about what sati is, I remember. Pls encourage him to share his reflections on this with us. I'd also like to encourage Lodewijk to continue the discussion with James on 'Monk or not Monk.' I think it's very important and I know Lodewijk has considered this area very carefully and understands James' viewpoint. Metta, Sarah ======= #68671 From: han tun Date: Wed Feb 21, 2007 12:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Daana Corner (01) hantun1 Dear Phil, Phil: Sometimes in this day and age we see teachings about spiritual generosity being a kind of dana. Han: Yes, Phil, dhamma daana is a kind of daana. -------------------- Phil: Thich Nhat Hahn goes as far as to say that one's presence, one's smile, can be dana. Han: Yes, one’s presence or one’s smile can be daana if it will bring benefit to the recipient. For example, a sick person sees his trusted physician coming towards him. The presence of the physician or the smile from the physician will bring some kind of relief or assurance to the patient, even before the physician actually examines and prescribes medicines. In that sense, one’s presence, or one’s smile can be a daana. It can be considered as the ‘gift of visible forms.’ (You will find the gift of visible forms mentioned in The Perfection of Giving by Acariya Dhammapala.) -------------------- Phil: Does that sort of teaching originate from the Buddha or is it just modern day feelgoodism? Han: I assume that this sort of teaching originated from ancient times. Respectfully, Han #68672 From: "Phil" Date: Wed Feb 21, 2007 1:20 am Subject: Re: Daana Corner (01) philofillet Hello Han Today is the end of my weekend, and there is clinging to my weekend, and some aversion about going back to work. But at work there are so many opportunities for this kind of dana. You made me feel eager to go back to work. So your post was like a smile for me. Thank you! Metta, Phil > Phil: Thich Nhat Hahn goes as far as to say that one's > presence, one's smile, can be dana. > > Han: Yes, one's presence or one's smile can be daana > if it will bring benefit to the recipient. For > example, a sick person sees his trusted physician > coming towards him. The presence of the physician or > the smile from the physician will bring some kind of > relief or assurance to the patient, even before the > physician actually examines and prescribes medicines. > In that sense, one's presence, or one's smile can be a > daana. It can be considered as the `gift of visible > forms.?E(You will find the gift of visible forms > mentioned in The Perfection of Giving by Acariya > Dhammapala.) > -------------------- #68673 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Feb 21, 2007 1:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Inauthenticity of Anupada Sutta, MN111 sarahprocter... Hi James, --- buddhatrue wrote: > Perhaps you could be a bit more specific about your Abhidhamma > understanding in this regard. From my Abhidhamma understanding, it > wouldn't be possible to flit back and forth between jhana and > listening to a discourse while fanning the Buddha. You see, the > thing that makes jhana jhana is that it is an uninterrupted state- > this is why the defilements are suppressed during jhana because it is > uninterrupted. .... S: Again, I think we come back to the speed of cittas - there can be many, many uninterrupted jhana cittas in a 'flash'. Let's look at your Abhidhamma quotes to see if there is any problem here: Here are two sources of information which point this > out: > > "When an individual attains to jhana, there is a similar disruption > in the form of the normal thought process as that which occurs at > death and in some senses it can be seen as an at least equally > significant event. A fundamental change in the level of experience > occurs as it can when the transition is made from one mode of > existence to another at the moment of death. .... S: Not sure about this, but will pass on it for now. .... >Jhana arises as a result > of making the mind one-pointed upon a suitable object of meditation. > When all the hindrances to this development have been suppressed and > the five mental factors of vitakka, vicara, piti, sukha and ekaggata > are sufficiently strong, then the following thought process occurs: > the citta which turns to the mind door arises, followed by three or > four javanas that are limited to the sense sphere which take the > meditation object (patibhaga-nimitta) as their object. They are known > as preparatory, access, adaptation and membership respectively. The > first may or may not occur depending on the purity of the meditator. > It can be seen as a preparation for the experience of a state of mind > completely new and superior in quality. It is followed by access > citta which leads on and lies close to that experience. The > adaptation citta links the access citta to the membership citta which > finally effects what is described in the texts as a 'change of > lineage' from the sense plane to the rupa plane. ... S: yes - a 'change of lineage' to the rupa plane, quite different than at death. So it's taken me several minutes to read all this, but it occurs in far less than a finger-snap. ... >It is followed by > the appana citta whose characteristic is absolute one-pointedness of > mind. It belongs to the plane of rupa in contrast to those cittas > that immediately preceded which belong to the sense plane. The > thought process then subsides into bhavanga once again. The same > thought process arises before all jhanas, the appana citta differing > in each case according to the level of jhana experienced. > http://www.samatha.org/publications/abhidhammapapers/ch5_1.html ... S: So all this jhana detail to detail in 'your' abhidhamma does not conflict with 'my' abhidhamma. This 'flash of jhana cittas' could occur many times during a short period of fanning the Buddha. .... > > "When one is not in a jhana state, he has either bhavanhga cittas or > vithi cittas. Bhavanga citta is subconscious mind. ... S: Not keen on the term 'subconscious', but again will let this pass for now... i think it's a common mis-translation. ... >Vithi citta is > conscious mind. > When he is asleep or when he is unconscious, he has > bhavanga cittas. Even when he is awake, he has bhavanga cittas, as > soon as the seventeen thought-moments, which a thought process (i.e., > a set of vithi) is composed of, come to an end. The bhavanga cittas > last till the next set of vithi cittas take place. They are a vital > continuum in the absence of vithi cittas. .... S: I think we were discussing processes of vithi cittas before, so I'm glad you're reading the same in 'your' Abhidhamma:-). ... > Limitless Jhana cittas > However, it is different when one is in a jhana state. His > jhana cittas are not like ordinary vithi cittas which are limited to > seventeen thought-moments at a time. Sometimes, under extraordinary > circumstances, the vithi cittas are less than seventeen in a set. > Jhana cittas are limitless. If, for example, he is in a jhana state > for one hour; his jhana cittas take place, one after another, for > lone hour. Bhavanga cittas have no chance to take place during that > period. .... S: In the Parinibbana Sutta we read about the Buddha passing through all the jhanas and back and then up to the 4th jhana again between his last word and passing away. Not only that, but it says in the commentary that he attained first jhana on 24 bases - 10 asubha, 32 aspects of the body, 8 kasinas, 3 brahma viharas, anapana, paricchedakaasa, 2nd on 13 bases , 3rd on 15 bases, 4th on 15 bases - 8 kasinas, upekkha, anapanasati, paricchedakaasa, 4 arupa....etc. "When entering the city of nibbana, the Blessed One, Lord of dhamma, first attains all the attainments, numbering 2400,000 kotis, and experiences all the bliss of attainment (samaapatti), just as one going to a foreign country first embraces all his relations." I know this is the Buddha and it's just prior to parinibbana, but I think it gives an indication of the speed at which such cittas may occur. .... > Jhanangas > Moreover, one point, which distinguishes jhana cittas from > ordinary vithi cittas, should also be mentioned. > There are what is known as cetasikas (mental concomitants). > They are 52 in number. Whenever a citta (mind) takes place, > appropriate cetasikas, out of these 52, also take, place > simultaneously. When they take place with ordinary vithi cittas, > these cetasikas are ordinary cetasikas. They have no power to prevent > nivaranas from taking place in the mind. When, however, they take > place in jhana cittas, these cetasikas are transformed. They are no > longer ordinary cetasikas. They are known as jhanangas. Jhanangas > mean parts of a jhana. These jhanangas are six in number. They are as > follows: > http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/nu2.htm .... S: No conflict between 'our' Abhidhammas. Nice, clear explanations, thank you. I hope this just gives a little more indication as to why it may have been quite possible for Sariputta, the foremost disciple to slip in and out of jhana at such a time. Metta, Sarah p.s Apologies for the delay. ======================= #68674 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Feb 21, 2007 1:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Some Thoughts on the Sectarians Sutta (AN 3.61) sarahprocter... Hi Scott, --- Scott Duncan wrote: > Dhamma is another word with such a complexity of meaning > that I can't really know how it is used in various contexts. As I > mention above, when the relation to the physical is down-played or > obscured then there is room to imagine control. .... S: On a snow-bound day, you might like to browse through 'Dhamma1 - meanings' in U.P. I think you'll find plenty of meat there. Metta, Sarah ===== #68675 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Feb 21, 2007 2:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] A final venting from phil, probably. sarahprocter... Hi Phil, This is my last response to your 'final venting, probably'. Maybe others still have other comments. Just two brief, 'probably!' comments: --- Phil wrote: 1.> The idea that this recommended > practice could be done by an operation of paramattha dhammas without > a self involved is absurd. .... S: I forget what the practice in question is, but doesn't this make it sound like you're suggesting that there are paramattha dhammas and a self? Or are you suggesting that the Buddha recommended a practice involving wrong view of self for beginners like us? (rhetorical, no need to respond). ..... >If it's true that anything > anyone does intentionally related to Dhamma with the hope of > developing understanding is wrong view related to rules and rites > than students of Acharn Sujin should look at the obsessive listening > to Acharn Sujin talks that people do (I certainly did) and they > should ask themselves why they make pilgrimages to India and other > holy sites. .... S: Yes, it all comes back to the motivations, I agree. I think that having a keen interest in listening to and considering the Dhamma is one thing. Trying to get understanding or have more kusala for oneself is another. We don't know by appearances what the motivations are when someone joins a trip to India, say. In my case, it's primarily because Jon loves to go -it's a chance for him to listen to Thai dhamma and he just loves being in India with the large Thai group. (Also, he seldom gets sick there) For me, it's not quite the same love-affair, but I enjoy being with our good friends, listening to dhamma live and travelling with Jon in spite of always coming down with a few bugs! Hope you'll join us one day and test out your own motivations:-) Oh, I could also add that it may surprise you to know that we, Nina, K.Sujin and most our other friends take 4 or 5a.m. wake-up calls in India for pre-mice solitude or breakfast (take your pick) in our stride - just like at home. The meditators will have a hard time 'pre-rising' the RSA students:-). Thanks again for your good 'vent', Phil. Looking forward to the further venting comments and discussion with Jon. I hope neither of you feels you're being too hasty with your dialogue:-). Metta, Sarah ========== #68676 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Feb 21, 2007 2:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Theriigaathaa - Sisters (14) sarahprocter... Hi Herman, --- Herman Hofman wrote: S:> > Another great therii....Therii Sumanaa > > > > This is also relevant to questions about parinibbana (such as one > Herman > > recently asked me about the Buddha's parinibbana). No Buddha, no > Therii > > Tissaa in an ultimate sense - just 'elements as pain' (dhaatuyo > > dhukkhato). > H:> I can easily accept that there would be no Buddha, you or me in an > ultimate sense, but find it less acceptable that an ultimate sense is > somehow meaningful, or even possible. .... S: Let's just say 'in reality'. Now, in reality, what is seen is visible object, what is heard is sound. A computer or Therii Tissaa are ideas, concepts, not realities. Visible objects, sounds and other realities are elements - they arise and fall away and are therefore dukkha. This cannot be said of 'computer' and 'Therii'. ..... >An ultimate sense sounds to me > like a viewpointless point of view, something that cannot be. .... S: So no need to use it. I could just as easily have written that there is no Buddha, no Therii - just elements. ... >All > consciousness is consciousness of something other than itself, so all > consciousness is a point of view. What is an ultimate sense? .... S: Seeing consciousness now is not a pov - it's real. So is thinking consciousness or touching consciousness. If there were only pov's without any realities, there'd be no seeing, no hearing, no tasting, no touching - a big mess and a very hungry big mess too! Metta, Sarah p.s We had a friend in Thailand who kept talking about 'pov's' - where has this idea come from? ======== #68677 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Feb 21, 2007 2:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: was pa~n~natti, Kh Sujin's teachings. sarahprocter... Hi Scott, --- Scott Duncan wrote: > Dhamma, not the teacher, is important. ... S: I agree with this. Metta, Sarah ======== #68678 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Feb 21, 2007 3:07 am Subject: to monk or not to monk nilovg Hi James, ----------- J: You are never going to understand because you have a very idiosyncratic view of the Dhamma. To you, there is no need to have discipline to practice the dhamma because every moment is a moment to practice the dhamma. From cooking dinner to watching television there are constant moments to practice the dhamma- there is always seeing and hearing! If it were only that easy! -------- N: No, not easy, but the objects experienced through the six doors appear all the time. Like Sarah said, even when watching fireworks. --------- J: You just don't get it. That isn't the way to practice the dhamma. There is perfecting sila, guarding the senses (from sensual objects), concentrating the mind, etc. It isn't easy and it takes a lot of effort. I do not have the self-discipline for the type of effort it requires. For example, Howard meditates two times a day, but I still don't think that's enough! That's the kind of effort I am talking about! I am talking about constant practice all day long (meditation in all postures, seclusion, mindfulness, etc.). Sure, I read the dhamma, practice meditation, practice mindfulness, discuss the dhamma, etc., but I don't have the type of self-discipline it will take to really practice the dhamma to perfection. ---------- N: I understand your point better than you may realize. More about this below. -------- J: You also seem to believe that people become monks and nuns because that is their "natural inclination". Oh yeah, they have the natural inclination to shave their heads, wear orange robes, remain celibate, eat only one meal a day, and give up all of their possessions. How many people do you think would have the `natural inclination' to do such a thing? People become monks or nuns because of samvegga, a sense of urgency. They see that the householder life is a dusty path, as the Buddha taught, and so they want to practice the dhamma to perfection. ------ N: Absolutely, I agree. The monk's life is in the open, not narrow such as the householder's life. ------ J: Oh gosh, I fear I am wasting my breath. But, it is nice of you a Lodewijk to be so concerned about me, but you shouldn't be. I haven't given up the dhamma; I just practice to my limited ability as a householder. I practice in a way which you wouldn't understand. ------ N: very good, now you are a householder and you do the best you can. May I add some more about the monk's life? Practice all day long: agreed, I would like to include here samatha and vipassana/ satipatthaana. Yes, all day long. Also the monk has many duties and he may not always have time to apply himself to samatha. Except during the rainy season perhaps. But any time is time for vipassana. The monk has to wash and mend his robes, sweep his hut and the surroundings, walk on his almsround, has to accept invitations from laypeople, has to perform ceremonies for them: at funerals, giving blessings for weddings, for a new house, a new car, etc. This takes up a lot of time. What about meditation? Meditation is samatha and vipassana. Vipassana can and should be developed at such moments. That is very urgent. We read in the Satipatthana sutta that there should be clear comprenesion during all his actions: walking, standing, eating, etc. At such moments there are hardness, softness, motion, pressure, and these are not yours, they are conditioned rupas appearing one at a time. Let us discuss more about these, if you like, then you will understand more my idiosyncratic view of the Dhamma. I think it most important not to separate the Vinaya and satipatthana, they go together. The monk has to chant and he can have much profit if he understands the meaning of the words, and can also be mindful in between of sound, hearing, thinking. The objects of vipassana are natural, daily life objects, but because of our accumulated forgetfulness we let them slip by. As you said with a smiley: there are seeing and hearing. Nina. #68679 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Feb 21, 2007 5:55 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Persons scottduncan2 Hi Herman, Thanks for the reply: H: "I guess we'll never go wrong if we assume kindness and gratitude on each other's behalf." Yeah, man - well, technically, I guess, the assumption could be wrong at some point but not, I think, in this case. H: "I do not assume, however, that the only real things in this are gratitude and kindness. I do not for a moment think that these affective or intentional states are somehow free-floating or disembodied. All that is necessary for gratitude and kindness to be manifest is as real as you can get. Is that what you meant when seeking to discuss persons in relation to adosa?" Well, no, not disembodied are they? On the one hand, taking the word literally, there are the physical body and the mental body. But these are both more like states and the 'body' is a succession of states which have material properties or qualities. Ruupa, as well as naama, is also real but 'body', like 'person' is concept, don't you think? Materiality-mentality arise and fall away, at different rates, but are co-conditioned in many ways - I suppose this could also stretch the meaning of 'embodied' to consider how adosa might be imbedded in a complex arising. In discussing 'person' in relation to adosa, or any other mental factor, I was wondering about the relationship between real mental factors and concepts as objects. The person one conceives is the object of, say, adosa. Given that this mental factor arises with citta and conditions it, the kusala state belongs to and remains within the stream of consciousness from whence it came and also remains an accumulated aspect within that stream. I don't think, but am not sure of this, that adosa arisen in one place can move into any other place. Should adosa condition ruupa to arise in the form of kusala word or deed directed at 'another' then this too only accumulates within the one stream. And although citta and mental factors arise in another stream of consciousness, cognising 'acts' from 'another', it is only within that other stream of consciousness that the 'effect' of whatever arises and falls away - including acts - remains. I think that craving and clinging to the concept 'person' creates a lot of misunderstanding. Conceivings such as 'I am compassionate' or 'I am more compassionate than so-and-so, who isn't very compassionate' are the result. And at the basis of this, I think, lies the belief in 'person'. One needn't misunderstand me to be suggesting that adosa is incapable of conditioning kusala thoughts and deeds in relation to the concept 'other person'. In the commentary to the Muulapariyaaya Sutta: "'He conceives 'beings are mine' (bhuute me ti ma~n~nati): here the conceiving of craving is alone relevant. This occurs when he lays claim to beings thus: 'My sons, my daughters, my goats and sheep, my poultry and swine, my elephants, cattle, horses, and mares.' "'He delights in beings': the method has been stated (in the section on earth). 'Because they have not been fully understood by him': the beings are not fully understood because he has not fully understood the formations by reference to which beings are discerned..." What say you? Sincerely, Scott. #68680 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Feb 21, 2007 12:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Some Thoughts on the Sectarians Sutta (AN 3.61) upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and Ken, and all) - In a message dated 2/21/07 1:45:52 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > Hi Ken H, > > --- ken_aitch wrote: > > >Hi Howard, > > > >I am out of my depth with the Tittha Sutta; I don't know if it deals > >with all sectarian guilds or just three of them. I think that it > >might be the latter, and that they are the sectarian guilds that side > >with annihilationism. > .... > S: BB gives this note: > > ============================ Sarah, I think this post of yours, msg # 68664, is exceedingly important. IMO, it is very, very valuable, filled with healthful food for thought. With metta, Howard #68681 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Feb 21, 2007 6:45 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Some Thoughts on the Sectarians Sutta (AN 3.61) scottduncan2 Hi Sarah, S: "On a snow-bound day, you might like to browse through 'Dhamma1 - meanings' in U.P. I think you'll find plenty of meat there." Thanks, I shall go down... S. #68682 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Feb 21, 2007 1:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Idle Thoughts on Nothing upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 2/21/07 2:12:00 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > Back to the Sabba Sutta: > > --- upasaka@... wrote: > >>S: What I wrote, particularly "In the Sabba Sutta, only those dhammas > >>presently arising can be known as the 'All'" indicates clearly that > >this > >>is it - all that can be known. Just the dhammas included in the > >ayatanas - > >>i.e presently arising cittas, cetasikas and rupas. Naturally, a > >Buddha's > >>'All' is another matter. > >> > >========================= > H:> In the Sabba Sutta, the Buddha never restricts the category of > >persons > >he is referring to. > .... > S: The commentary makes it clear that the 'All' refers to all dhammas of > the 4 planes - the three mundane planes and the supramundane plane. In > other words, 'all' that can ever be known by any of his audience. ------------------------------------------- Howard: Does not the triple world include all conditions, all sankhata dhammas? What besides the conditioned and the uncondtioned are you referring to? In any case, the sutta is perfectly clear without such commentary. The Buddha went to special effort to point out that there is no other all (!), and if one were to say that there were, they would be speaking of what is beyond range. I understand that "beyond range" to mean "beyond any possible experiencing by anyone at all." Precisely what the Buddha wrote in this regard, with emphasis added by me, is the following: "ANYONE who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." When the Buddha goes to special lengths to make a point, I will take him at his word as his meaning exactly what he says, as he says it. ------------------------------------------------ > > As you'll appreciate from your phenomenalist approach, the 'all' for us > refers to the dhammas which can be directly known at the present moment > i.e only dhammas which arise and appear. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: At this "moment", and in the future, and previously, what is knowable is only what is experiencible. That is the phenomenalist approach, and that is exactly what I suspect the Buddha had in mind when he spoke of being beyond range. ----------------------------------------------- > .... > >He never says this pertains to worldlings. > ... > S: No and I didn't either:-) I could have said: 'presently arising cittas, > cetasikas and rupas AND nibbana if that is presently the object of a > citta:-). --------------------------------------------- Howard: I would like to see my original post on this, Sarah. (You gave no date for it or msg #, which I note you omit at times, making it difficult to access, especially in this case where there were many posts with this subject heading.) As I recall, your prior post seemed to imply that the Sabba Sutta dealt with only what is experiencible by worldlings, or at the very least, by non-buddhas, and I think that is false. As I read what you are writing here with regard to nibbana, however, I'm not really certain we are in disagreement. I certainly do not think that the Buddha considered nibbana to be beyond range (i.e., inexperiencible in every way). I believe that nibbana, the the unconditioned, ultimate nature of reality, is most assuredly experiencible ("realizable" I would say) as nondual mind-door experience. So, I don't consider it going beyond the all or being beyond range, but it being included in what is listed in the Sabba Sutta. -------------------------------------------------- > .... > >He seems > >to > >say that this "All" is literally ALL. > ... > S: It includes all the ayatanas - the coming together of any dhammas > experiencing and experienced (including nibbana if applicable!). -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Okay. If I implied differently before, I back off from that. I think that in the Sabba Sutta, the Buddha simply ruled out of existence anything beyond experience. -------------------------------------------------- > > What I said it excluded was the wider 'all' only known by the Buddha's > omniscience. This would include any dhammas, any dhammas at all - past, > future or present without any limit. --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, here we go! I say it excludes NOTHING. I say that, because the BUDDHA says that - most explictly! What can you be possibly thinking of? When the Buddha taught of "the all", he really meant ALL. -------------------------------------------------- > ........ > > From my perspective, "the All" misperceived is samsara, and "the > >All" > >correctly perceived is nibbana. > ... > S: Sorry, but this doesn't make any sense to me....Is this what you read > in the sutta when it talks about 'The eye and forms....etc'? It doesn't > sound like your usual comments, Howard. ------------------------------------------ Howard: Nibbana is known by mind. Let's not get into exactly what it is, because it isn't properly describable in any case. ------------------------------------------ > ... > >In any case, the gist of this sutta, it > >seems > >to me, is a pragmatic-phenomenalist one that asserts that whatever is > >claimed > >to exist beyond experience "lies beyond range" and should not be > >considered as > >existent, i.e. as part of the "All". > .... > S: Fine - so fronm this 'pragmatic-phenomenalist' gist, is it really > nibbana which is the 'correctly perceived' All now? --------------------------------------------- Howard: What is experiencible is included in the all, not just what is experienced at a particular time by a particular "person". Nibbana is certainly not beyond experience. --------------------------------------------- > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====================== With metta, Howard #68683 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Feb 21, 2007 7:14 am Subject: music and lyrics nilovg Hi Howard, ------- H: The deconstruction technique to avoid certain types of desire and clinging was certainly recommended by the Buddha. It is a skillful means in guarding the senses. However, I would point out two things: 1) The teeth, and even the image of teeth, is not visible object - it is pa~n~natti! 2) It is not only pa~n~natti we desire and cling to. We crave and are attached to pleasant sensations - we cling to vedanas and rupas. So, much more than the pa~n~natti/paramattha-dhamma distinction is needed to free ourselves from the three poisons. ----------------------------------------------- N: The teeth is a meditation subject of samatha: bones. But this subject brings one back to reality: visible object is what is seen. The bhikkhu did not stare at that girl. If there was no awareness and direct understanding of visible object as rupa he could not have attained arahatship. So, it does not matter: at one moment a concept is the object, the next one a nama or rupa. Cittas are so fast. Samatha and vipassana can be developed together. This is an important point and if this is not clear we cannot understand the satipatthanasutta that states about the cemetery meditations, the parts of the body etc. Is there anything you would like me to elaborate on, Howard? I do not see the story as demonstrating a technique at all. It can occur naturally when one has right understanding. Last time in Bgk Betty had to hear unpleasant speech but she remembered: there is only hearing. Yes, hearing is vipaaka produced by kamma. Even thinking in the right way can help us in daily life. I had similar experiences. Do you get this point, Howard? Think of the Elephant Print sutta. A monk has to hear unpleasant speech. He realizes that there is only sound impinging on the earsense. It has conditions, he says, it is not without conditions. When intellectual understanding of this fact has been developed, there are conditions for pa~n~naa that realizes right away, without thinking: the sound as a kind of rupa that is conditioned. No deconstruction technique here! --------- > I did not see any joke in James remark: it is only seeing and > hearing. Although he put a smiley, I got it in another way. I felt > happy reading it.Yes, this is the truth. ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Humor can be quite serious, Nina. I may be wrong, but I think you may well have missed James' point, which I think to be quite the opposite of what you took it to be. If not, then I misread it, and I stand corrected in that regard. -------------------------------------------------- N: We have to ask him. Maybe he was repeating what he heard on dsg, what he expected to hear. There may have been a little voice that said so to him, although he could not accept it yet. It is all right. I was happy about the Dhamma I read here. It is dhamma, it is true. ------------ > > I read another example in the Visuddhimagga about a woman offering > food and paying respect to a monk. People asked him whether he had > seen who it was and he answered that he did not know whether it was a > man or a woman, he did not pay attention. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Would a Buddha also not know and not pay attention? Such avoidance is a technique, Nina, and not something to aspire to. Not paying attention and being unaware of all the facts is not something to admire except as a technique useful in certain circumstances. ----------------------------------------------- N: No technique, but conditions to react in such a way. It was natural for that monk. When you offer food to the monks who pass in a row on the street, the monks are not supposed to look up to the giver. So it happens in Thailand. Avoidance is one of the four right efforts and it is done with satipatthana. Satipatthana influences our conduct through body, speech and mind. When there is mindfulness of nama and rupa that appear now you cannot go wrong. This is good for the harmony in society, do you see my point? Or do I have to elaborate more? ---------- > Howard: essential aspects of reality, especially as regards issues of > morality. > > --------- > N: No, on the contrary, it does help. Only conditioned dhammas, not > attaching so much importance to them. Try it! ---------------------------------------- Howard: Nina, I try everything - all the tecniques taught by the Buddha. I am constantly mindful, and especially of what transpires in my mind. I look for "what actually is" constantly. I am devoted to clear understanding. Of course, I'm far from perfect in this practice, but that goes without saying. ------------------------------------------- N: I would avoid the word technique. When I said, try it, I meant that when we understand more and more that there are conditioned dhammas appearing we shall be less disturbed by thinking: 'he did this to me.' There will be more understanding of kamma and vipaaka, of praise and blame. We can verify this. Nina. #68684 From: connie Date: Wed Feb 21, 2007 7:08 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (31) nichiconn Dear Friends, Another Uttamaa. Ye ime satta bojjha"ngaati-aadikaa aparaaya uttamaaya theriyaa gaathaa. Ayampi purimabuddhesu kataadhikaaraa tattha tattha bhave viva.t.tuupanissaya.m kusala.m upacinantii vipassissa bhagavato kaale bandhumatiinagare kuladaasii hutvaa nibbatti. Saa ekadivasa.m satthu saavaka.m eka.m khii.naasavatthera.m pi.n.daaya caranta.m disvaa pasannamaanasaa tii.ni modakaani adaasi. The verses beginning [I have developed] all these seven constituents of awakening are another Therii Uttamaa's. She too performed meritorious deeds under previous Buddhas and accumulated good [actions] in various lives as [her] basis for release. At the time of the Blessed One Vipassii, she was reborn in the town of Bandhumatii and became a household servant. One day she say a disciple of the Teacher, a thera who had destroyed all his taints, going on his alms food rounds. With her mind favourably disposed [towards him], she gave him three little cakes. Saa tena pu~n~nakammena devamanussesu sa.msarantii imasmi.m buddhuppaade kosalajanapade a~n~natarasmi.m braahma.namahaasaalakule nibbattitvaa vi~n~nuta.m pattaa janapadacaarika.m carantassa satthu santike dhamma.m sutvaa pa.tiladdhasaddhaa pabbajitvaa nacirasseva saha pa.tisambhidaahi arahatta.m paapu.ni. Through that meritorious deed, she journeyed on among devas and men, and in this Buddha era, she was born in a certain wealthy brahman family in the districe of Kosala. When she came of age, she heard the Doctrine from the Teacher [Buddha] who was walking on a tour of the district. She gained faith, went forth, and after a short time attained the state of Arahatship together with the [four] discriminations. Tena vutta.m apadaane (apa. therii 2.2.30-36)- "Nagare bandhumatiyaa, kumbhadaasii ahosaha.m; mama bhaaga.m gahetvaana, gaccha.m udakahaarikaa. "Panthamhi sama.na.m disvaa, santacitta.m samaahita.m; pasannacittaa sumanaa, modake tii.nidaasaha.m. "Tena kammena sukatena, cetanaapa.nidhiihi ca; ekanavutikappaani, vinipaata.m na gacchaha.m. "Sampatti ta.m karitvaana, sabba.m anubhavi.m aha.m; modake tii.ni datvaana, pattaaha.m acala.m pada.m. As it is said in the Apadaana: I was a water-pot carrier in the town of Bandhumati. I took my share and fared as a water carrier. I saw a recluse on the road whose mind was peaceful and composed. Favourably disposed [toward him] and joyful, I gave him three little cakes. As a result of that virtuous deed and of my resolve and purpose, I did not go to a nether realm for ninety-one aeons. I experienced all that having produced that state of attainment. I gave three little cakes and arrived at the unshakable place. "Kilesaa jhaapitaa mayha.m {, bhavaa sabbe samuuhataa; naagiiva bandhana.m chetvaa, viharaami anaasavaa. "Svaagata.m vata me aasi, buddhase.t.thassa santike; tisso vijjaa anuppattaa, kata.m buddhassa saasana.m. "Pa.tisambhidaa catasso, vimokkhaapi ca a.t.thime; cha.labhi~n~naa sacchikataa,} kata.m buddhassa saasanan"ti. My defilements are burnt out, {all [future] births are completely destroyed. Having severed my bonds like an elephant, I live without taints. Welcome indeed was the presence of the Best of Buddhas to me. I have attained the three true knowledges. I have done the Buddha's teaching. The four discriminations and also the eight liberations are mine. I have realized the six direct knowledges.} I have done the Buddha's teaching. arahatta.m pana patvaa attano pa.tipatti.m paccavekkhitvaa udaanavasena- 45. "ye ime satta bojjha"ngaa, maggaa nibbaanapattiyaa; bhaavitaa te mayaa sabbe, yathaa buddhena desitaa. 46. "Su~n~natassaanimittassa, laabhiniiha.m yadicchaka.m; orasaa dhiitaa buddhassa, nibbaanaabhirataa sadaa. 47. "Sabbe kaamaa samucchinnaa, ye dibbaa ye ca maanusaa; vikkhii.no jaatisa.msaaro, natthi daani punabbhavo"ti.- Imaa gaathaa abhaasi. After attaining Arahatship and looking over her attainment, she spoke these verses as a solemn utterance: 45. I have developed all these seven constituents of awakening, the way for obtaining of quenching, as taught by the Buddha. 46. I am an attainer of the empty and the signless [aspects of quenching], whichever I want. I am the true daughter of the Buddha, always delighting in quenching. 47. All sensual pleasures, those that are divine and those that are human, have been completely cut out. Journeying on from rebirth to rebirth has been completely annilhilated. There is now no renewed existence. The Seven Factors of the Awakened mind - *151 Seven Ways whereby we may Nibbana win - All, all have I developed and made ripe, Even according to the Buddha's word. (45) Fulfilled is heart's desire: I win the Void, I win the Signless! *152 Buddha's daughter I, Born of his mouth, his blessed word, I stand, Transported with Nibbana's bliss alway. (46) And all the sense-desires that fetter gods, That hinder men, are wholly riven off. Abolished is the infinite round of births. Becoming cometh ne'er again for me. (47) *151 See Ps. xx. *152 'Void, i.e., I am empty of greed, ill-will, and dullness, the three springs of all evil. 'Signless,' i.e., I am free from all attachment to anything 'marked' as impermanent, evil, or having a soul. See Ps. xix., ver. 20, n. 1. Tattha su~n~natassaanimittassa, laabhiniiha.m yadicchakanti su~n~natasamaapattiyaa ca animittasamaapattiyaa ca aha.m yadicchaka.m laabhinii, tattha ya.m ya.m samaapajjitu.m icchaami yattha yattha yadaa yadaa, ta.m ta.m tattha tattha tadaa tadaa samaapajjitvaa viharaamiiti attho. 46. There, I am an attainer of the empty and the signless [aspects of quenching] (su~n~natassaanimittassa), whichever I ('ha.m) want means: I am an attainer of whichever I (aha.m) want, the attainment of the empty (su~n~nata-samaapattiyaa) and the attainment of the signless (animitta-samaapattiyaa). With reference to that, whichever I wanted to attain, wherever, whenever, I remain there having attained each one in various places at any time. That is the meaning. Yadipi hi su~n~nataappa.nihitaadinaamakassa yassa kassacipi maggassa su~n~nataadibheda.m tividhampi phala.m sambhavati. Aya.m pana therii su~n~nataanimittasamaapattiyova samaapajjati. Tena vutta.m- "su~n~natassaanimittassa, laabhiniiha.m yadicchakan"ti. Yebhuyyavasena vaa eta.m vutta.m. Nidassanamattametanti apare. Even if that which is called the empty, non-desire, etc., (su~n~nataappa.nihitaadi-naamakassa) is someone's path, the fruition state is produced that is the threefold empty state, etc. Now that therii entered upon the attainment of the empty. Thus she said, I am an attainer of the empty and the signless [aspects of quenching], whichever I want. Alternatively, this is said as to be a general rule. Other say this is to be considered as an indication. Ye dibbaa ye ca maanusaati ye devalokapariyaapannaa ye ca manussalokapariyaapannaa vatthukaamaa, te sabbepi tappa.tibaddhachandaraagappahaanena mayaa sammadeva ucchinnaa, aparibhogaarahaa kataa 47. Those that are divine and those that are human means: desires for possessions, those belonging to the deva world and those belonging to the world of human beings, all of them have been uprooted by me through abandoning the desire and passion connected with them; [they have been] made to be not enjoyed. Vutta~nhi- "abhabbo, aavuso, khii.naasavo bhikkhu kaame paribhu~njitu.m. Seyyathaapi pubbe agaariyabhuuto"ti. Sesa.m vuttanayameva. Aparaa uttamaatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa ni.t.thitaa. For it is said, "Friend, a bhikkhu who has destroyed all his taints is incapable of enjoying sensual pleasure just as [he did] previously when a householder. " The meaning [of the rest] has been explained. Here ends the commentary on the verses by another Therii Uttamaa. ==== peace, connie #68685 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Feb 21, 2007 7:25 am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 134 and Tiika. nilovg Intro: In the following section the Visuddhimagga explains that the dying- consciousness that has a past object or a not-so classifiable object can be followed by rebirth-consciousness that has a present, past or not-so classifiable object. We have to remember that the object of the last javana-cittas of a lifespan that is about to end, are conditioned by the kamma that will produce rebirth of the next life, and that also the object of the last javanacittas is conditioned by kamma. That object can be experienced through one of the six doorways. The rebirth- consciousness is produced by kamma and the object it experiences is the same as that of the last javanacittas of the previous life. However, that object is not experienced through any doorway and the rebirth-consciousness does not arise in a process of cittas. The rebirth-consciousness is door-freed (dvara-vimutta) and process-freed (viithi-vimutta). ------------ Text Vis.135: :Herein, in the base consisting of boundless consciousness and the base consisting of neither perception nor non- perception, the object of rebirth-linking is 'past'. --------- N: The text of the Visuddhimagga refers here to the meditation subjects of the second and the fourth aruupa-jhaana. As is explained (Vis. Ch X, 24-45), there are four stages of aruupa- jhaana: the Sphere of Boundless Space, the Sphere of Boundless Consciousness, the Sphere of Nothingness and the Sphere of Neither Perception nor Non-Perception. There are four types of aruupaavacara kusala cittas which produce as rebirth-consciousness the corresponding aruupaavacara vipaakacittas that experience the same object as the aruupaavacara kusala cittas. The aruupa-jhaanacitta of the second stage has as meditation subject the ‘base consisting of boundless consciousness’, which is the jhaanacitta that occurred previously with boundless space as object and which has fallen away and is thus past. Thus it has a past object experienced through the mind-door. Evenso, the aruupa-jhaanacitta of the fourth stage, the base consisting of neither perception nor non-perception, has as object the jhaanacitta that occurred having ‘nothingness’ as meditation subject and that has fallen away. Thus, the fourth aruupa-jhaanacitta also has a past object experienced through the mind-door. These two aruupaavacara kusala cittas produce as results the aruupaavacara vipaakacittas which arise as rebirth-consciousness in the next life. These cittas have the same objects as the aruupaavacara kusala cittas that produced them, but they do not experience these objects through any doorway. Since the aruupaavacara kusala cittas that produced them experienced a past object, it is also said of the vipaakacittas that were produced by them as rebirth- consciousness, that they have a past object. --------- Text Vis.; : That of the ten kinds of sense-sphere rebirth-linking is 'past' or 'present'. --------- N: This will be further explained in detail. They may arise in happy planes or in unhappy planes. ----------- Text Vis.: That of the rest is 'not-so-classifiable'. ------- N: The Tiika states as to ‘the rest’ (sesana), that this refers to the five ruupaavacara vipaakacittas and the first and the third aruupaavacara vipaakacittas, which are seven kinds of pa.tisandhicittas. These have ‘ not-so-classifiable' objects, navattabbaaramma.na. The meditation subjects of the ruupa-jhaana-cittas are not past objects or present objects, they are concepts. This falls under the catagory of ‘not so classifiable objects’. The aruupaa-jhaanacitta of the first stage has as object boundless space and the aruupa-jhaanacitta of the third stage has as object: ‘there is nothing’. These objects are concepts, they are not so classifiable objects. The rebirth-consciousnesses produced by them experience the same object which is ‘not so classifiable’. But, as we have seen, the second and the fourth aruupa-jhaanacittas have a past object, the jhaanacitta that has fallen away. ---------- Text Vis.: But while the rebirth-linking consciousness occurs thus with three kinds of objects, the death consciousness, next to which it occurs, has only a 'past' or a 'not-so-classifiable' object, there being no death consciousness with a 'present' object. Consequently, it should be understood how it occurs in the happy destinies and the unhappy destinies as follows, that is to say, how rebirth-linking consciousness with one of the three kinds of objects occurs next to death consciousness with one of two kinds of objects. --------- N: The death-consciousness has the same object as the rebirth- consciousness of the life that is about to be terminated, it can be past or 'not-so-classifiable', but it cannot be a present object. It is then succeeded by the rebirth-consciousness of the next life that can have an object that is present, past or 'not-so-classifiable' . This will be further explained with examples. ----------- Conclusion: the text teaches us here that the vipaakacitta which is rebirth-consciousness is completely in accordance with the kamma that produces it. This is illustrated by the types of rebirth-consciousness produced by the aruupaavacara kusala cittas of the four stages of aruupa- jhaanacitta. These experience the same object as the aruupaavacara kusala cittas that produced them. The same is true for the other types of rebirth-consciousness as we shall see in the following sections. ------------------- Nina. #68686 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Feb 21, 2007 7:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Music and Lyrics buddhatrue Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, James - > ------------------------------------- > Howard: > I know you are making a joke here, but you are doing so to make a very > important point! A perspective of "only seeing and hearing" would miss > essential aspects of reality, especially as regards issues of morality. Paramattha > dhammas are not isolated, separated, unrelated entities, and if we see them as > such we adopt a terribly limited, skewed and invalid perspective. > --------------------------------------- Yes, you got my joke and my point. I was being ironic. When I saw that part of the movie I experienced aversion- actually, very strong aversion. The idea often put forward in this group is the way to deal with this type of aversion is by thinking to oneself: there's only seeing and hearing. Is this wisdom? I don't think so. I think this is artificial wisdom; fake wisdom. It may make the person feel a little better, a little more equanimity, but the aversion is still there, under the surface, subconsciously. This isn't mindfulness and it isn't the way to combat aversion and purify the mind. And, also, as you point out, saying that everything is "only seeing and hearing" will create a type of spiritual malase and apathy. Why care about the holocost- it's only seeing and hearing? etc. Metta, James #68687 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Feb 21, 2007 7:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Music and Lyrics buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Howard and James, > do you remember Tissa who went on his way and when a girl was > laughing, just attended to the bones of her teeth? That is only > visible object, James: From my understanding of Abhidhamma, teeth are a concept and cannot be the object of sati. This incident occurred because Tissa was practicing satipatthana as taught by the Buddha, not as you and KS teach. and at such a moment there is indriya samvara siila, > higher siila guarding the indriyas, the sense faculties. The doorways > are guarded. Sila and satipatthana go together. I wish I could convey > this to James. James: You are not going to be able to convey this to me because this is not the Buddha's definition of guarding the senses. Guarding the senses doesn't involve thinking "there is only seeing and hearing". As I quoted to you, guarding the senses is not putting unwise attention to sensual objects and putting wise attention to wholesome objects. Tissa would have two choices: He could look away when he saw the pretty girl, or he could see her as only a collection of 32 body parts. Both of these are guarding the senses. Neither one has to do with seeing everything as paramatha dhammas. > I did not see any joke in James remark: it is only seeing and > hearing. Although he put a smiley, I got it in another way. I felt > happy reading it.Yes, this is the truth. James: LOL! You just don't get it. I was being ironic about this silly proposition- and it most definitely isn't the truth! > > By conditions one is in such situation of seeing and hearing awful > things as James described, but, when there is mindfulness of seeing, > and there is seeing which experiences only colour, the eyedoor is > guarded. James: Again, this is not guarding the senses!! Please, read what the Buddha taught in regards to guarding the senses. I know those pesky suttas rain on your parade, but they are important! James, a monk should remember this at all times, he may also > be in difficult situations. > I read another example in the Visuddhimagga about a woman offering > food and paying respect to a monk. People asked him whether he had > seen who it was and he answered that he did not know whether it was a > man or a woman, he did not pay attention. James: Now, this is guarding the senses....he didn't pay attention. Again, nothing to do with 'only seeing and hearing'. Metta, James #68688 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Feb 21, 2007 3:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Music and Lyrics upasaka_howard Hi, James - We see this matter in exactly the same way! :-) With metta, Howard #68689 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Feb 21, 2007 3:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] music and lyrics upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 2/21/07 10:16:17 AM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > ------- > H: The deconstruction technique to avoid certain types of desire and > clinging was certainly recommended by the Buddha. It is a skillful > means in > guarding the senses. However, I would point out two things: > 1) The teeth, and even the image of teeth, is not visible object - it > is pa~n~natti! > 2) It is not only pa~n~natti we desire and cling to. We crave and are > attached to pleasant sensations - we cling to vedanas and rupas. So, > much more > than the pa~n~natti/paramattha-dhamma distinction is needed to free > ourselves > from the three poisons. > ----------------------------------------------- > N: The teeth is a meditation subject of samatha: bones. But this > subject brings one back to reality: visible object is what is seen. > The bhikkhu did not stare at that girl. If there was no awareness and > direct understanding of visible object as rupa he could not have > attained arahatship. So, it does not matter: at one moment a concept > is the object, the next one a nama or rupa. Cittas are so fast. > Samatha and vipassana can be developed together. > This is an important point and if this is not clear we cannot > understand the satipatthanasutta that states about the cemetery > meditations, the parts of the body etc. Is there anything you would > like me to elaborate on, Howard? ----------------------------------- Howard: No, but thanks. I'm afraid we are talking right past each other, Nina. No perspectives are being modified in the slightest. ---------------------------------- > I do not see the story as demonstrating a technique at all. It can > occur naturally when one has right understanding. -------------------------------- Howard: I can't say I'm surprised. ;-) ------------------------------- > Last time in Bgk Betty had to hear unpleasant speech but she > remembered: there is only hearing. Yes, hearing is vipaaka produced > by kamma. Even thinking in the right way can help us in daily life. I > had similar experiences. Do you get this point, Howard? -------------------------------- Howard: As I see it, not reacting to harsh, mean, or abusive speech with anger and other harmful emotions is usefully cultivated in many ways. But I see at most temporary value in dealing with improper action by simply ignoring its moral nature. That is a practice of blanking out part of reality. There is *not* only hearing. Improper speech issues forth from mindstates that are quite real, and being aware of speech as "only sounds" without going more deeply is not being awake and aware, but blanking out. Dhamma practice is *not* a matter of restricting awareness, except on rare occasions as necessary, but of expanding it and clarifying it. ---------------------------------- > Think of the Elephant Print sutta. A monk has to hear unpleasant > speech. He realizes that there is only sound impinging on the > earsense. It has conditions, he says, it is not without conditions. > When intellectual understanding of this fact has been developed, > there are conditions for pa~n~naa that realizes right away, without > thinking: the sound as a kind of rupa that is conditioned. No > deconstruction technique here! ----------------------------------- Howard: I see the Dhamma as a teaching of increasing awareness along with relinquishment. It is not a practice of ignorance - of not knowing, and ceratinly not of refusing to be aware. ------------------------------------- > --------- > >I did not see any joke in James remark: it is only seeing and > >hearing. Although he put a smiley, I got it in another way. I felt > >happy reading it.Yes, this is the truth. > > ------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Humor can be quite serious, Nina. I may be wrong, but I think you may > well have missed James' point, which I think to be quite the opposite > of what > you took it to be. If not, then I misread it, and I stand corrected > in that > regard. > -------------------------------------------------- > N: We have to ask him. Maybe he was repeating what he heard on dsg, > what he expected to hear. There may have been a little voice that > said so to him, although he could not accept it yet. It is all right. > I was happy about the Dhamma I read here. It is dhamma, it is true. > ------------ > > > >I read another example in the Visuddhimagga about a woman offering > >food and paying respect to a monk. People asked him whether he had > >seen who it was and he answered that he did not know whether it was a > >man or a woman, he did not pay attention. > > ---------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Would a Buddha also not know and not pay attention? Such avoidance is > a technique, Nina, and not something to aspire to. Not paying > attention and > being unaware of all the facts is not something to admire except as a > technique > useful in certain circumstances. > ----------------------------------------------- > N: No technique, but conditions to react in such a way. It was > natural for that monk. When you offer food to the monks who pass in a > row on the street, the monks are not supposed to look up to the > giver. So it happens in Thailand. > Avoidance is one of the four right efforts and it is done with > satipatthana. Satipatthana influences our conduct through body, > speech and mind. When there is mindfulness of nama and rupa that > appear now you cannot go wrong. This is good for the harmony in > society, do you see my point? Or do I have to elaborate more? > ---------- > >Howard: essential aspects of reality, especially as regards issues of > >morality. > > >--------- > >N: No, on the contrary, it does help. Only conditioned dhammas, not > >attaching so much importance to them. Try it! > > ---------------------------------------- > Howard: > Nina, I try everything - all the tecniques taught by the Buddha. I am > constantly mindful, and especially of what transpires in my mind. I > look for > "what actually is" constantly. I am devoted to clear understanding. > Of course, > I'm far from perfect in this practice, but that goes without saying. > ------------------------------------------- > N: I would avoid the word technique. > ----------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, I know. But I would not. --------------------------------------- When I said, try it, I meant > > that when we understand more and more that there are conditioned > dhammas appearing we shall be less disturbed by thinking: 'he did > this to me.' There will be more understanding of kamma and vipaaka, > of praise and blame. We can verify this. > ========================== With metta, Howard #68690 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Feb 21, 2007 8:04 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Inauthenticity of Anupada Sutta, MN111 buddhatrue Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > I hope this just gives a little more indication as to why it may have been > quite possible for Sariputta, the foremost disciple to slip in and out of > jhana at such a time. James: I am the one who said that it is impossible for Sariputta to be slipping in and out of each of the eight jhanas because of the nature of the jhanas. I have given quotes that refer to Abhidhamma studies to show why this is so. But the only thing you are telling me is that it can be done. Am I just supposed to take your word or what? Sorry, you haven't presented sufficient evidence to convince me to change my primary hypothesis. Furthermore, Sariputta is quoted in the ancient texts at attaining nibbana while listening to a discourse and fanning the Buddha- he mentions nothing about attaining the eight jhanas in-between. The sutta doesn't mention the listening to the discourse and the fanning and Sariputta mentions nothing about what is in the sutta. Obviously, the sutta is a fake. > > Metta, > > Sarah Metta, James #68691 From: TGrand458@... Date: Wed Feb 21, 2007 4:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Idle Thoughts on Nothing TGrand458@... Hi Howard and Sarah, Butting in.... In a message dated 2/21/2007 7:56:54 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, upasaka@... writes: I believe that nibbana, the the unconditioned, ultimate nature of reality, is most assuredly experiencible ("realizable" I would say) as nondual mind-door experience. So, I don't consider it going beyond the all or being beyond range, but it being included in what is listed in the Sabba Sutta. -------------------------------------------------- TG: Nibbana is described by the Buddha as the "ending of perception and feeling." I don't know from where you are so confident about Nibbana being "assuredly experiencible." (Realizable? Perhaps only after the fact.) > .... > >He seems > >to > >say that this "All" is literally ALL. > ... > S: It includes all the ayatanas - the coming together of any dhammas > experiencing and experienced (including nibbana if applicable!) -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Okay. If I implied differently before, I back off from that. I think that in the Sabba Sutta, the Buddha simply ruled out of existence anything beyond experience. -------------------------------------------------- > > What I said it excluded was the wider 'all' only known by the Buddha's > omniscience. This would include any dhammas, any dhammas at all - past, > future or present without any limit. TG: I don't believe in a "wider All." I think you are both wrong in thinking "The All" deals only with actual experience. I believe "The All" deals with "All Potential Experiences." These elements are "All" that is capable of being experienced. The Buddha's semi-omniscience is still bound to "The All" and there is no need for a "proviso" given this outlook. The Buddha is not speaking about pure phenomenology. He is addressing all possible and potential experiences. It is a broad overview. --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, here we go! I say it excludes NOTHING. I say that, because the BUDDHA says that - most explictly! What can you be possibly thinking of? When the Buddha taught of "the all", he really meant ALL. -------------------------------------------------- TG: Yep. The Buddha means what he says which is why commentaries must be looked at with a weary eye. Commentaries might be right, but they damn well may be wrong. (Except for mine of course.) > ........ > > From my perspective, "the All" misperceived is samsara, and "the > >All" > >correctly perceived is nibbana. > ... > S: Sorry, but this doesn't make any sense to me....Is this what you read > in the sutta when it talks about 'The eye and forms....etc' in the sutt > sound like your usual comments, Howard. ------------------------------------------ Howard: Nibbana is known by mind. Let's not get into exactly what it is, because it isn't properly describable in any case. ------------------------------------------ TG: Maybe, but the Buddha describes Nibbana a lot. "The ending of perception and feeling" is perhaps the most common. Generally Nibbana is described in the Suttas as empty of any of what we might consider "content." > ... > >In any case, the gist of this sutta, it > >seems > >to me, is a pragmatic-phenomenato me, is a pragmatic-phenomenalist o > >claimed > >to exist beyond experience "lies beyond range" and should not be > >considered as > >existent, i.e. as part of the "All". > .... > S: Fine - so fronm this 'pragmatic-phenomen S: Fine - so fronm t > nibbana which is the 'correctly perceived' All now? --------------------------------------------- Howard: What is experiencible is included in the all, not just what is experienced at a particular time by a particular "person". Nibbana is certainly not beyond experience. --------------------------------------------- TG: This is fascinating to me. Except for the last sentence, it seems this statement matches my view of The All. That it is dealing with all potential experiences. (Although I think Howard and I have a different standard as to what experience consists of ... in that I'm more given to accepting the actuality of outside phenomena/the external as being real, with or without an experiential context.) Nibbana as I understand it as exactly "beyond experience." > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====================== With metta, Howard TG #68692 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Feb 21, 2007 5:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Idle Thoughts on Nothing upasaka_howard Hi, TG - In a message dated 2/21/07 12:36:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@... writes: > TG: Nibbana is described by the Buddha as the "ending of perception and > feeling." ====================== Where? I don't think that is a description of nibbana at all, but of a jhana that can lead into awakening. With metta, Howard #68693 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Feb 21, 2007 5:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Idle Thoughts on Nothing upasaka_howard Hi again, TG - In a message dated 2/21/07 12:36:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@... writes: > TG: Maybe, but the Buddha describes Nibbana a lot. "The ending of > perception and feeling" is perhaps the most common. =================== Not in my opinion. The most common would be the end of dukkha, and, as I have said, I do not think that the ending of perception and feeling refers to nibbana. With metta, Howard #68694 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Feb 21, 2007 5:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Idle Thoughts on Nothing upasaka_howard Hi, TG (and Sarah) - In a message dated 2/21/07 12:36:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@... writes: > TG: I don't believe in a "wider All." I think you are both wrong in > thinking "The All" deals only with actual experience. I believe "The All" > deals > with "All Potential Experiences." ------------------------------------- Howard: But that is what I think as well, and, in fact, I said so to Sarah. ------------------------------------- > These elements are "All" that is capable of > being experienced. The Buddha's semi-omniscience is still bound to "The > All" > and there is no need for a "proviso" given this outlook. > ----------------------------------- Howard: Yes, I agree. -------------------------------- The Buddha is not > > speaking about pure phenomenology. He is addressing all possible and > potential experiences. It is a broad overview. > ----------------------------------- Howard: One and the same. =================== With metta, Howard #68695 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Feb 21, 2007 6:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Idle Thoughts on Nothing upasaka_howard Hi, TG - In a message dated 2/21/07 12:36:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@... writes: > --------------------------------------------- > Howard: > What is experiencible is included in the all, not just what is > experienced at a particular time by a particular "person". Nibbana is > certainly not > beyond experience. > --------------------------------------------- > > > TG: This is fascinating to me. > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: It shouldn't be! LOL! I don't know why you would think I felt otherwise. --------------------------------------------- Except for the last sentence, it seems this > > statement matches my view of The All. > ----------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, certainly it does. -------------------------------------- That it is dealing with all potential > > experiences. -------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, exactly! ------------------------------------ (Although I think Howard and I have a different standard as to > > what experience consists of ... in that I'm more given to accepting the > actuality of outside phenomena/the external as being real, with or without > an > experiential context.) > > Nibbana as I understand it as exactly "beyond experience." > > > --------------------------------------- Howard: I understand it as totally other than anything we have ever *known* as experience, including our quite standard awareness of cessations, but I would definitely not consider it beyond experience in every possible sense. BTW, one reason you and others here will often see me using "content of consciousness" instead of "object of consciousness" is due to my purposely wanting to go beyond the subject-object sense of 'consciousness' in my speech at those times. I consider the standard subject-object hard separation as the primary defilement of consciousness. It is a mode reifying both subject and object, and separating them in a strong way. Subject-object consciousness is, IMO, the "vi~n~nana" dealt with in the 12-link chain of dependent origination, and it is our ordinary defiled awareness, defiled by avijja via sankhara. As I see it, the undoing of the chain of dependent origination removes ignorance, purifies sankhara, undoes the reification of both subject and object, removes the hard subject-object split, and enables a radical and total revolution (turning over) of experience. It is that revolution that uproots the obscuration of the reality that is nibbana. ================== With metta, Howard #68696 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Feb 21, 2007 11:35 am Subject: Rupas, preface, 2. nilovg Dear friends, The whole day we touch things such as a fork, a plate or a chair. We believe that we know instantaneously what different things are, but after the sense-impressions such as seeing or the experience of tactile object through the bodysense, there are complicated processes of memory of former experiences and of classification, and these moments succeed one another very rapidly. Concepts are conceived through memory. We remember the form and shape of things, we know what different things are and what they are used for. We could not lead our daily life without conventional realities; we do not have to avoid the world of conventional truth. However, in between the moments of thinking of concepts, understanding of ultimate realities, of nåma and rúpa, can be developed. The development of understanding does not prevent us from doing all the chores of daily life, from talking to other people, from helping them or from being generous to them. We could not perform deeds of generosity if we would not think of conventional realities, such as the things we are giving or the person to whom we give. But through the development of understanding we will learn to distinguish between absolute truth and conventional truth. The “Abhidhammattha Sangaha”, a compendium of the Abhidhamma composed in India at a later time, states that concepts are only shadows of realities. When we watch T.V., we see projected images of people and we know that through the eyesense only visible object is seen, no people. Also when we look at the persons we meet, only colour is experienced through the eyesense. In the ultimate sense there are no people. Although they seem very real they are only shadows of what is really there. The truth is different from what we always assumed. A person is a temporary combination of realities that are constantly in a process of formation and dissolution, and thus the flux of life goes on. We cling to a conglomeration of different objects, we take these as a solid “whole”. So long as we do not see the disruption of the continuity of body and mind we continue to believe in a lasting self. Ultimate realities are impermanent, they arise and fall away. Concepts of people and things do not arise and fall away; they are objects of thinking, not real in the ultimate sense. Nåma and rúpa, not concepts, are the objects of understanding. The purpose of the development of the eightfold Path is seeing ultimate realities as impermanent, suffering and non-self. If the difference between concepts and ultimate realities is not known the eightfold Path cannot be developed. ******* Nina. #68697 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Feb 21, 2007 11:40 am Subject: Letters on Vipassana 8, no 4. nilovg Dear friends, We need sati-sampajañña, sati and paññå, so that we shall know whether there is at this moment kusala citta or akusala citta. There are different levels of sati-sampajaññå, which is often translated as "clear comprehension". Knowing kusala as kusala and akusala as akusala is one level of sati-sampajañña. If one wants to develop kusala one has to know whether the citta at this moment is kusala or akusala. If sati-sampajañña does not arise it cannot be known. If one wants to develop samatha one needs sati-sampajañña which knows whether there is kusala citta with calm, conditioned by the meditation subject of samatha. Sati-sampajañña in vipassanå realizes nåma as nåma and rúpa as rúpa, it realizes them as not self. Sati- sampajañña of vipassanå is supported by the other levels of sati- sampajañña, by sati-sampajañña which realizes kusala as kusala and akusala as akusala, and which sees the disadvantage of akusala and the benefit of kusala. On the other hand, sati-sampajañña of vipassanå supports all levels of kusala. Sati-sampajañña can be developed by listening to the Dhamma and by considering it. Moreover, all other kinds of kusala have to be developed as well, since the goal is the eradication of defilements. Therefore, it is necessary to have a finer discrimination of kusala and akusala in our daily life. If we learn about nåma and rúpa but we neglect generosity we will keep on clinging to the self. It is difficult to develop generosity when a great deal of stinginess has been accumulated, but we should get to know our true accumulations. When we notice stinginess we do not like it, we have aversion about it. Or there is regret, kukkucca, about our akusala or about the kusala we omitted, and that is also akusala. When there is an opportunity for the arising of sati-sampajañña there is no aversion, no regret. Sati-sampajañña can realize the characteristic of stinginess as only a conditioned reality, a type of nåma. There can be more understanding of its conditions: it arises because it is so deeply accumulated. We do not want to be stingy, we may tell ourselves not to be stingy, not to speak words which express our stinginess, but stinginess still arises. We can learn from such situations. Instead of us being discouraged, sati-sampajañña can arise and see the disadvantage of akusala, and at that moment there cannot be aversion about it. There should be sati-sampajañña which realizes how often there is conceit in our relationship to others. We may feel displeased about what someone else is doing to us or saying to us. There is a kind of comparing, there is "he" and "me"; we wonder, "How can he do that to me." Then there is conceit, we cling to "our important personality". Conceit hinders generosity and mettå. Can we forgive someone else easily? Forgiving is a kind of generosity, dåna. It is "abhaya-dåna", the wish that someone else is free from harm. We should more often consider the benefit of forgiving, it helps us to have less conceit. ******* Nina. #68698 From: TGrand458@... Date: Wed Feb 21, 2007 7:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Idle Thoughts on Nothing TGrand458@... In a message dated 2/21/2007 11:37:13 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, upasaka@... writes: In a message dated 2/21/07 12:36:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, _TGrand458@..._ (mailto:TGrand458@...) writes: > TG: Nibbana is described by the Buddha as the "ending of perception and > feeling." ====================== Where? I don't think that is a description of nibbana at all, but of a jhana that can lead into awakening. With metta, Howard Hi Howard My understanding is that the Jhana sequence ends with "neither perception nor non-perception." I understand "the ending of perception and feeling" (or consciousness) to be a description of the arrival of Nibbana. I don't have time to look up quotes right now other than this one from my paper... “By the utter destruction of delight in existence, By the extinction of perception and consciousness, By the cessation and appeasement of feelings, It is thus, friend, that I know for beings – Emancipation, release, seclusion.â€? (The Buddha . . . CDB, vol. 1, pg. 90) At any rate, this quote should be fodder for discussion. TG #68699 From: "m_nease" Date: Wed Feb 21, 2007 12:24 pm Subject: Re: A final venting from phil, probably. m_nease Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > Hi Mike > > > Now, Rose and I play cribbage and chess every day. The same > (different) > > dhammas arise and subside as did in the temples. > > Yes, that's right - the same dhammas, that's for sure. And yet, > and yet...I'm very interested in the way the media we consume (as in > any sensory input) conditions proliferation. Less input, less > proliferation. Less proliferation, better conditions for deeper > levels of concentration to arise. I'm inclined to agree. If the idea is to improve concentration, removing distractions seems like a good idea to me. We may differ on the value of improving concentration, though. > That's the way it would seem to > me, that's the way the similes that are used in AN for the > hindrances seem to me. (You know, the clear water that is either > stirred up, or muddy, or algae-covered, I forget the details in the > 5 different cases.) It seems to me the hindrances are fed on sensory > input, and the more there is of it, the more deeply rooted they > become. I think a person living in a secluded spot would definitely > see his or her hindrances starved, somewhat. I hope this doesn't sound contentious but my experience in the monasteries was the opposite. Somehow, the reduction of food, shelter, clothing and distractions to a reasonable minimum seemed to bring out the hindrances (at least for many of us) rather than to starve them. Dosa-types tended to get angry or depressed, lobha-types became obsessive about sense-pleasures and so on. This was taken for granted (in the Thai wat) and regarded as an opportunity to observe the hindrances first-hand. > Same dhammas, > but....less demanding or something? I don't know. It's not an option > for me so I don't really think about it except when I am shooting my > mouth off about it at DSG. I like your posts and I think you have a point. It seems to me that one of the (many) virtues of the vinaya is the reduction of distractions from the development of concentration--for those developing concentration. By the way, have you read the Vinaya pitaka? Wonderful reading anyway, but maybe of particular interest to you since you're focusing on siila lately. > I used to play cribbage! I forget all about that. It was fun. > Naomi and I should play some games like that. We do enjoy it--it's pretty much all akusala, of course--all the akusala cetasikas play big roles, unmistakably (issaa and macchariya are especially obvious when playing). Moments of friendliness and so on in there too of course. All against the backdrop of the weather constantly changing over the bay, the tides coming and going, marine birds and mammals competing for food, mates, territory and so on. All constant reminders of the Dhamma and dhammas. I think you were anxious to go, please don't feel obliged to respond. mike #68700 From: TGrand458@... Date: Wed Feb 21, 2007 7:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Idle Thoughts on Nothing TGrand458@... Hi Howard In a message dated 2/21/2007 12:10:33 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, upasaka@... writes: BTW, one reason you and others here will often see me using "content of consciousness" instead of "object of consciousness" is due to my purposely wanting to go beyond the subject-object sense of 'consciousness' in my speech at those times. I consider the standard subject-object hard separation as the primary defilement of consciousness. It is a mode reifying both subject and object, and separating them in a strong way. TG: We are on a very similar page in that respect. Subject-object consciousness is, IMO, the "vi~n~nana" dealt with in the 12-link chain of dependent origination, and it is our ordinary defiled awareness, defiled by avijja via sankhara. As I see it, the undoing of the chain of dependent origination removes ignorance, purifies sankhara, undoes the reification of both subject and object, removes the hard subject-object split, and enables a radical and total revolution (turning over) of experience. It is that revolution that uproots the obscuration of the reality that is nibbana. ================== With metta, Howard TG: I presume you mean that removing ignorance undoes the chain? I see Nibbana as a reality only in the sense that the absence of a deluded system, represented by the 12 fold chain, is a possibility. When the chains is broken, and the arahat dies, the result of the end of consciousness. As the quote demonstrates... The Buddha describes the “death resultâ€? of an enlightened (arahat) monk, Ven.Dabba Mallaputta… The body disintegrated, perception ceased, All feelings became cool, Mental activities were calmed, And consciousness came to an end. (The Buddha . . . The Udana & The Itivuttaka, pg. 116, 8.9) TG #68701 From: "m_nease" Date: Wed Feb 21, 2007 12:32 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: A final venting from phil, probably. m_nease Hi Herman, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > On 19/02/07, m. nease wrote: > > > > Now, Rose and I play cribbage and chess every day. The same (different) > > dhammas arise and subside as did in the temples. > Is this profundity? Or gibberish? It wasn't meant to be the former and doesn't meet the dictionary definition of the latter, I don't think. This strikes me, by the way, as a false dilemma and a compound question. > Are Rose dhammas same or different to cribbage dhammas to chess > dhammas to temple dhammas? I don't understand the question. Dhammas, naamaa and ruupaa, are what in the aggregate are mistakenly taken for people, games, buildings etc. (pa.n.natti) by my understanding of the texts. > Kind Regards Really? The tone of your message didn't sound 'kind' in the least. mike #68702 From: "colette" Date: Wed Feb 21, 2007 7:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kusala and akusala ksheri3 Good Morning Jonothan, Well, since this was a few days ago I'm at a loss as to the original msg. but I'm gonna maintain a thought with you based on what you've stated and I can work with. > > Yes, this sounds like me. Guilty as charged, I'm afraid. colette: this is the exact place that YOU HAVE TO MAKE DECISIONS, we can go into "value structures" etc but I think you get my point. It's in your hands. You have the current situation, a single view of a single reality, what is it that you are going to do with this reality? Here you can participate in the TRANSFORMATION OF CONSCIOUSNESS, aka vijnana-parinama. It' a choice only you can make. ********************************** > > I don't think it's necessary to be in anyone's shoes in order to > consider the concept of kusala/akusala. colette: When I spoke of "being in another's shoes" I meant that rethorically, as in POINT OF VIEW (POV). Kusala/Akusala are both only concepts of illusory situations we find ourselves in. We taint, we prejudice, we color, etc, different things (which are illusions and "empty") as a means of UNDERSTANDING AND CONVERSATIONS. I meant that you must, in order for you to give Howard the benefit of your wisdom, become Howard, this is an advanced magikal technique I use in what is called Astral Projection, and now that I've found so many scholars involved in this stuff I have only scratched the surface of this subject in my own research, become Howard since it is advice you are giving to Howard about Howard's consciousness, his actions/reactions, etc. I also meant that it isn't really practical to even consider that another person can advise a person on things since I truely understand the doctrines on EXPERIENCE. I have to go for the morning now, but I'd like to also thank a monk that showed himself to me, last week. He happens to be about my brothers age, I would think he was born in something like 1955 or close to it, but we are contemporaries and I'm glad that you did that since I know that YOU ARE ONE BUSY MONK! I haven't had time to go back digging up the bits I copied from the Dharmapala but I know what you meant I should review. Thanx to all and hopefully later I can continue with our talk Jonathan. toodles, colette #68703 From: "colette" Date: Wed Feb 21, 2007 12:34 pm Subject: Re: Mephistopheles, Why Not Merlin, or eventhe author of the Goetia? ksheri3 Now should I intro this with: Tom Cruise, of that oh so reputable Hollywood Blvd. institution called SCIENTOLOGY saying: SHOW ME THE MONEY or should I go with the standard operating procedure of the STATUS QUO when Micheal Douglas said: "Greed, for lack of a better term, is good" ? Hi Scott, Odd, I got the same 1st line from Jonathan this morning which I replied to. I seem to have more time now so I can take this as I take everything, at that time no contamination to the consciousness, I reply and the monitors either publish it or hide it for their personal consumption, aka greed, avarice, etc. Lets try it again with you as the SUBJECT. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Hi colette, > > c: "that Mephistopheles intro caught my eye and so I had to read more." > > Mephistopheles seemed an antithetical epithet to the one chosen for me > by Herman, so I used it. (Not to mention that Faust sold his soul to > Mephistopheles for knowledge, which seemed somehow relevant at the > time although why this was so escapes me now.) colette: okay, lets say that I believe the duality of this positive/negative or god/devil schtick to be nothing more than slight of hand parlor tricks. Mephistopheles did not sell an imaginary object to an imaginery being TO ACQUIRE knowledge, he certainly was seeking POWER, more specifically POWER OVER OTHERS. Now it's in a realm I can deal with since I am nothing less than pissed off at those in western theologies i.e. islam, judeaism, christianity, for THEIR total lack of consciousness, that is their total abdication of self to a completely fabricated hallucination of others' that is centuries old before the theologies that acquired this knowledge appropriated and PERVERTED, might I say: "can I have another, piece of chocolate cake? Tammy Baker boy ..." Crowded House. I might also add that a momument of Chicago authority at the Daley plaza where the Federal Bldg. and City Hall are located at, there happens to be huge Picasso statue, which leads me to the reference in that same Crowded House song: "Can I buy another, cheap Picasso fake." One might ask the Board of Directors for the Golden Dawn Society and the Open Source Order of the Golden Dawn, Sam Webster, Fr. IO, what that might mean. You strike at Mephistopheles but I see it, Mephistopheles, in an entirely different light, perspective, perception, cognition, and so I parleyed my thoughts, much as every sentient living being does when they open that hole in their head. \ The joke the two of you were making is beyond my scope since I do not have time to read for pleasure. I read to stay alive. I read to have the most fun mocking the stupidity of those that have taken the sword against me in 1978. I think it is a hillarious, tragic comedy, that they perform unto, that is that THEY do it INTENTIONALLY, MALLICIOUSLY, to their friends and family, brethren. Luckily, I am outside EVERY GROUP. I am outside any and all combinations that can occur between two people, so is their edict. I shall and have made great use of the edict that was thrust upon me by society. Moving on. ******************************* Merlin may have been > better, at least the old man who was enthralled by, was it Morgan la > Fay? I'm forgetting my Morte d'Arthur. I love The Once and Future > King. I don't even know the author of Goetia but I'm sure this person > would have served well the cause since I was goofing around... > > Blathered I to Herman: "Yeah, if I'm following you, consciousness is > momentary, variegated, object-related and the 'next' moment is never > the same as the last hence there can be no 'consciousness in general'." > watch this slight of hand parlor trick: now you've gotta go all the way back to the first sentence since it was at this point I just said "I've got it". toodles, colette #68704 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Feb 21, 2007 8:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Idle Thoughts on Nothing upasaka_howard Hi, TG - In a message dated 2/21/07 3:20:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@... writes: > I don't have time to look up quotes right now other than this one from my > paper... > > > “By the utter destruction of delight in existence, > By the extinction of perception and consciousness, > By the cessation and appeasement of feelings, > It is thus, friend, that I know for beings – > Emancipation, release, seclusion.â€? > (The Buddha . . . CDB, vol. 1, pg. 90) > =========================== That is interesting. What does "CDB" stand for, please? As for the extinction of perception and consciousness and the cessation of feelings, I interpret this as referring to the defiled sa~n~na, vi~n~nana, and vedana of dependent origination. If all experience is referred to in these extinctions, why mention destruction of *delight* in existence, and why mention *appeasement* of feelings along with "cessation"? With metta, Howard #68705 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Feb 21, 2007 8:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Idle Thoughts on Nothing upasaka_howard Hi, TG - In a message dated 2/21/07 3:29:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@... writes: > Hi Howard > > > In a message dated 2/21/2007 12:10:33 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, > upasaka@... writes: > > BTW, one reason you and others here will often see me using "content > of consciousness" instead of "object of consciousness" is due to my > purposely > wanting to go beyond the subject-object sense of 'consciousness' in my > speech > at those times. I consider the standard subject-object hard separation as > the > primary defilement of consciousness. It is a mode reifying both subject and > > object, and separating them in a strong way. > > TG: We are on a very similar page in that respect. > > > Subject-object consciousness is, > IMO, the "vi~n~nana" dealt with in the 12-link chain of dependent > origination, > and it is our ordinary defiled awareness, defiled by avijja via sankhara. > As > I > see it, the undoing of the chain of dependent origination removes > ignorance, > purifies sankhara, undoes the reification of both subject and object, > removes > the hard subject-object split, and enables a radical and total revolution > (turning over) of experience. It is that revolution that uproots the > obscuration of > the reality that is nibbana. > ================== > With metta, > Howard > > > TG: I presume you mean that removing ignorance undoes the chain? ------------------------------------------ Howard: Yes. It is the first step of undoing the chain and the direct cause. The sword of wisdom excising ignorance does the job. ----------------------------------------- > > I see Nibbana as a reality only in the sense that the absence of a deluded > system, represented by the 12 fold chain, is a possibility. When the > chains > is broken, and the arahat dies, the result of the end of consciousness. As > > the quote demonstrates... > > > The Buddha describes the “death resultâ€? of an enlightened (arahat) monk, > Ven.Dabba Mallaputta… > The body disintegrated, perception ceased, > All feelings became cool, > Mental activities were calmed, > And consciousness came to an end. ------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes. Vedana cooled, sankhara calmed, sa~n~na in the sense of recognition defiled by reification ceased. ------------------------------------------- > (The Buddha . . . The Udana &The Itivuttaka, pg. 116, 8.9) > TG > ==================== With metta, Howard #68706 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Wed Feb 21, 2007 1:17 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Persons egberdina Hi Scott, On 22/02/07, Scott Duncan wrote: > Hi Herman, > > Well, no, not disembodied are they? On the one hand, taking the word > literally, there are the physical body and the mental body. But these > are both more like states and the 'body' is a succession of states > which have material properties or qualities. Ruupa, as well as naama, > is also real but 'body', like 'person' is concept, don't you think? I can imagine bodies, without being able to see or touch them. I can also see/touch/hear bodies. The imagined body is conceptual, it's being is dependent on my mind, but the one that I can reach out to and touch is not dependent on my imagination for it's being. I may be misreading you, but there is room in what you write to believe that you see the world arising in dependence on mind. Am I wrong? I have snipped the rest, because the above question is fairly fundamental to the discussion. Kind Regards Herman #68707 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Wed Feb 21, 2007 1:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Theriigaathaa - Sisters (14) egberdina Hi Sarah, Just very briefly here. I'll answer in detail later. On 21/02/07, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Herman, > > H:> I can easily accept that there would be no Buddha, you or me in an > > ultimate sense, but find it less acceptable that an ultimate sense is > > somehow meaningful, or even possible. > .... > S: Let's just say 'in reality'. Now, in reality, what is seen is visible > object, what is heard is sound. A computer or Therii Tissaa are ideas, > concepts, not realities. Visible objects, sounds and other realities are > elements - they arise and fall away and are therefore dukkha. This cannot > be said of 'computer' and 'Therii'. > There is nothing conceptual about this, my computer. It is the object which consciousness is making known. It is that object which I can touch, see and swear at. And it just sits there, regardless of whether consciousness is making it known. It is not an object made by mind, the mind only makes it known by way of intentional perception. Consciousness cannot make this computer cease to be, it can at best ignore it. On the other hand, the computer I imagine whilst seated on the toilet is not available for touching or seeing, though I can swear at it. It is entirely a mind-made computer. The imagined computer depends on mind for it's being as well as it's characteristics. Kind Regards Herman #68708 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Feb 21, 2007 10:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Theriigaathaa - Sisters (14) upasaka_howard Hi, Herman - In a message dated 2/21/07 4:58:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, hhofmeister@... writes: > The imagined computer > depends on mind for it's being as well as it's characteristics. > > ==================== As does the "real" computer: A multitude of multi-sense-door impressions are organized by mental operations grasping that fuzzy aggregate as a unity. The alleged entity, "the computer", has all the interrelated conditions undelying it as it characteristics. "The computer is hard" due to the presence of rupas of hardness, and so on. The difference with the imagined computer is that for it there are no underlying rupas at all - there is just thinking. With metta, Howard #68709 From: TGrand458@... Date: Wed Feb 21, 2007 11:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Idle Thoughts on Nothing TGrand458@... Hi Howard In a message dated 2/21/2007 2:11:37 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, upasaka@... writes: “By the utter destruction of delight in existence, > By the extinction of perception and consciousness, > By the cessation and appeasement of feelings, > It is thus, friend, that I know for beings – > Emancipation, release, seclusion.â€? > (The Buddha . . . CDB, vol. 1, pg. 90) > =========================== That is interesting. What does "CDB" stand for, please? TG: Connected Discourses of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya As for the extinction of perception and consciousness and the cessation of feelings, I interpret this as referring to the defiled sa~n~na, vi~n~nana, and vedana of dependent origination. If all experience is referred to in these extinctions, why mention destruction of *delight* in existence, and why mention *appeasement* of feelings along with "cessation"? With metta, Howard I most strongly disagree. Once again, I feel the Buddha said what he meant to say. He is speaking in the clearest terms possible. I really don't understand the need for the creative interpretation. But, I speculate that you don't want to lose an actual Nibbana. ;-) If all is suffering, who's to care if all is non-experience after parinibbana? There's no self to lose. Nothing to lose. There is only suffering to lose. Good riddance! I think the idea of Nibbana being an "experiencable state" is a subtle attachment and self projection. I don't know why you are confused by the first line in the quote. Seems a simple pronouncement of what results from insight into impermanence, dukkha, and no-self ... the utter destruction of delight in existence. Nibbana is the unconditioned. I repeat and the Suttas often state ... Nibbana is the unconditioned. It is the lack of conditions, hence the lack of suffering. I highly doubt, based on the Suttas, that it is an "experience." And even is there were an experiential component, the lone desire or idea of that would prevent one from attaining Nibbana IMO. TG #68710 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Feb 21, 2007 4:39 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Persons scottduncan2 Hi Herman, H: "I can imagine bodies, without being able to see or touch them. I can also see/touch/hear bodies. The imagined body is conceptual, it's being is dependent on my mind, but the one that I can reach out to and touch is not dependent on my imagination for it's being. "I may be misreading you, but there is room in what you write to believe that you see the world arising in dependence on mind. Am I wrong? I have snipped the rest, because the above question is fairly fundamental to the discussion." No, I don't think I see the world as arising in dependence on mind, that is if by 'world' you are referring to something other than concept. If you pinch yourself, when I'm not thinking of you, you will feel it. I'm suggesting that the separateness of 'beings' - the separate aggregates conceptualised as 'beings' - is a reality. That which arises within in one stream stays within one stream. How might one understand, for example, those events whereby the hearing of the Dhamma, say as spoken by the Buddha - an other - was able to cause to arise in one listening the Noble Man - the fruition consciousness of the Arahat. Or what does adosa arising in you, with 'me' as object, end up having to do with 'me'? If that doesn't clarify your concern, please let me know. Sincerely, Scott. #68711 From: TGrand458@... Date: Wed Feb 21, 2007 11:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Idle Thoughts on Nothing TGrand458@... Hi Howard In a message dated 2/21/2007 2:14:52 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, upasaka@... writes: The Buddha describes the “death resultâ€? of an enlightened (arahat) monk, > Ven.Dabba Mallaputta… > The body disintegrated, perception ceased, > All feelings became cool, > Mental activities were calmed, > And consciousness came to an end. ------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes. Vedana cooled, sankhara calmed, sa~n~na in the sense of recognition defiled by reification ceased. ------------------------------------------- TG: I don't know what to say to you when you ignore "consciousness came to an end." To me you're fudging the quote but you cant fudge the last line. Well, maybe you can. ;-) I guess you can just insert more provisos that don't exist in the quote. BTW, that's the same sort of thing we often complain about when others do it. Anyway, my reading is that all experience came to an end. If you want to think that "cool" or "calmed" mean something else in this context, then I'll let it be at that. > (The Buddha . . . The Udana &The Itivuttaka, pg. 116, 8.9) > TG > ==================== With metta, Howard TG #68712 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Feb 21, 2007 5:10 pm Subject: Re: Mephistopheles, Why Not Merlin, or eventhe author of the Goetia? scottduncan2 Hi colette, I'm slow but steady. I'll get to your next reply after this one. Your discourse proves that the mind is rapid indeed. Pardon the elision in the below: colette: I'm so glad you picked up on this and brought it out....people buying and selling imaginary products or products that never did and never will exist. For instance we can go to "the future price of a head of cattle that hasn't been born yet" (you can find this activity on the Hang Seng market in Hong Kong or the CBOT in Chicago) This is how Faust represented a concept. Yeah, you are right. The deal was sour from the beginning: the currency was counterfeit (anatta) and knowledge (pa~n~na) cannot be bought or sold. Sincerely, Scott. #68713 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Feb 21, 2007 6:32 pm Subject: Re: Mephistopheles, Why Not Merlin, or eventhe author of the Goetia? scottduncan2 Hi colette, Observe my own fanciness: c: "watch this slight of hand parlor trick: now you've gotta go all the way back to the first sentence since it was at this point I just said 'I've got it'." Through the miracle of cut and paste I have inverted your order and now the last is first. Enough tricks. To the message: c: "Now should I intro this with: Tom Cruise, of that oh so reputable Hollywood Blvd. institution called SCIENTOLOGY saying: SHOW ME THE MONEY or should I go with the standard operating procedure of the STATUS QUO when Micheal Douglas said: 'Greed, for lack of a better term, is good'" Either one is fine. Your choice. Perhaps 'age before beauty' can serve as methodology, although 'beauty is in the eye of the beholder'. This, of course, is illusion incarnate. On second thought, go for the NEW MESSIAH. c: "?" My question as well. c: "Odd, I got the same 1st line from Jonathan this morning which I replied to." Not to worry. I'm not Jonathan, or I am Not-Jonathan. colette: "okay, lets say that I believe the duality of this positive/negative or god/devil schtick to be nothing more than slight of hand parlor tricks. Mephistopheles did not sell an imaginary object to an imaginery being TO ACQUIRE knowledge, he certainly was seeking POWER, more specifically POWER OVER OTHERS. Now it's in a realm I can deal with since I am nothing less than pissed off at those in western theologies i.e. islam, judeaism, christianity, for THEIR total lack of consciousness, that is their total abdication of self to a completely fabricated hallucination of others' that is centuries old before the theologies that acquired this knowledge appropriated and PERVERTED, might I say: "can I have another, piece of chocolate cake? Tammy Baker boy ..." Crowded House. I might also add that a momument of Chicago authority at the Daley plaza where the Federal Bldg. and City Hall are located at, there happens to be huge Picasso statue, which leads me to the reference in that same Crowded House song: "Can I buy another, cheap Picasso fake." One might ask the Board of Directors for the Golden Dawn Society and the Open Source Order of the Golden Dawn, Sam Webster, Fr. IO, what that might mean." This is all well and good. If I thought, from a totally bourgeois perspective of course, for a single minute that POWER mattered one iota then I'd say so but Crowded House is only one source (too modern) of reference. If you go back, you have to consider the relevance of the use of James Joyce by the BEATLES, who, along with the mockery made of identity I-am-you-as-you-are-me-as-we-are-us-as-we-are-all-together sort of thing, state GOO GOO G' JOOB. I found Ulysses to have been, in the end, just the emperors clothes (and only read the WHOLE DAMN BOOK because everyone else claimed it was so good - now I know they never read it!!) while A Portrait of the Artist As A Young Man is as deft a stab to the heart of Irish Catholicism as you will ever witness. I say #*@% it and be done with it, with all due respect of course, and I mean RELIGION in toto. In Edmonton, where I live and for example, the CITY FATHERS were conned by an artiste who installed what essentially is a huge shower stall on what is known to us as the HIGH LEVEL BRIDGE and every year, just prior to the canada day fireworks, this shower spews tons of useless water pumped up from the NORTH SASKATCHEWAN RIVER like a vast pissing away of precious water, which of course, just flows back into the river and on and on... c: "You strike at Mephistopheles but I see it, Mephistopheles, in an entirely different light, perspective, perception, cognition, and so I parleyed my thoughts, much as every sentient living being does when they open that hole in their head." Trephination trumps the leech I have under my arm sucking my blood as I type these words! To defend myself, unnecessarily of course, I have to suggest that I didn't as much 'strike at' Mephistopheles as try to keep up with Herman, the DEVIL'S ADVOCATE and no mistake! c: "The joke the two of you were making is beyond my scope since I do not have time to read for pleasure. I read to stay alive. I read to have the most fun mocking the stupidity of those that have taken the sword against me in 1978. I think it is a hillarious, tragic comedy, that they perform unto, that is that THEY do it INTENTIONALLY, MALLICIOUSLY, to their friends and family, brethren. Luckily, I am outside EVERY GROUP. I am outside any and all combinations that can occur between two people, so is their edict. I shall and have made great use of the edict that was thrust upon me by society." I know a man who is a PROPHET OF THE OLD TESTAMENT GOD, and, oddly enough, suffered deeply in 1978 as well. At the time his own head SHRUNK incongruously within his logging helmet, causing the headgear to swivel in a humiliatingly scandalous fashion while shocked and mocking patrons of a local transportation company stood and stared. He bobbed by behind the window of his bus, terrified by all accounts. Now he is a PHOTOCOPY GENERATING DEVICE and wages a petty war against all and sundry institution in the name of GOD and to absolutely no avail. c: "Moving on." Towards the peaceful, colette. Very nice you rolled back. Until next time I am, Yours Sincerely, Scott. #68714 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Wed Feb 21, 2007 6:46 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Music and Lyrics rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" <> Yes, you got my joke and my point. I was being ironic. When I saw > that part of the movie I experienced aversion- actually, very strong > aversion. The idea often put forward in this group is the way to > deal with this type of aversion is by thinking to oneself: there's > only seeing and hearing. Is this wisdom? I don't think so. I think > this is artificial wisdom; fake wisdom. It may make the person feel > a little better, a little more equanimity, but the aversion is still > there, under the surface, subconsciously. This isn't mindfulness and > it isn't the way to combat aversion and purify the mind. > > And, also, as you point out, saying that everything is "only seeing > and hearing" will create a type of spiritual malase and apathy. Why > care about the holocost- it's only seeing and hearing? etc. ______________ Dear James Here is an extract of some letters I wrote to an American Buddhist 10 years ago. The topic is similar to what you are discussing with Nina. ____http://www.dhammastudy.com/corr.html_____________ AB: Do you agree that it is important if one is serious about developing vipassana that we must avoid certain sense objects such as violent movies? ____________________ ROBERT:Actually when vipassana is been developed it doesn't matter so much what object contacts the senses. It can all be insighted. If we watch a violent movie then it is conditioned already. While we watch there are namas (mental states) and rupas (physical states) arising and passing away continually. Looking at TV is the situation, the concept, but the realities are merely colour and seeing, sound and hearing, which depending on understanding or lack of it condition various perceptions and feelings which (along with colour, seeing, sound hearing) can be directly understood. This doesn't mean that there can be continual mindfulness of realities - sati and understanding are conditioned, they arise when there are sufficient conditions. ... Here is an example: someone is angry with me - they speak harsh words. If there is no understanding of realities then I may feel upset, "why is he saying that to me" and so on or perhaps if I have some special spiritual technique I might think of a mantra or concentrate on sensations in the body or the breath. But there can also be direct experience of the sounds that are contacting the sensitive matter in the ear. When sound is seen, as it is in the present moment, there won't be aversion to that sound- it is merely a momentary reality that passes so quickly and thus there is not the same tendency to feel upset. _________________ AB:You said that sound can be used as an object for the development of vipassana. I am suspicious of doing this: the skill to "deconstruct" the meaning and go back to the sensations can be used as a form of pathological defense, a very skilled version of a little kid covering his ears when he doesn't want to hear his parents say something. To have this skill is wonderful: to automatically use it to avoid unpleasantness could lead to many problems. Sometimes the real obstacle keeping you in samsara is what underlies the feelings aroused by the words, and they must be investigated rather than avoided. ______________________ ROBERT:I agree. As you say "sometimes the real obstacle keeping you in samsara is what underlies the feelings aroused by the words and they must be investigated rather than avoided." You have probably read something about the PATICCASAMUPADA (usually translated as "dependent origination"). The paticcasamupada is a very pithy, deeply profound analysis of samsara and the conditions that keep samsara revolving. One of the factors is indeed feeling. Here is an extract from the Nidana- Vagga of the Samyutta Nikaya: The Buddha said: " On account of the EAR BASE and SOUND, EAR CONSCIOUSNESS arises. Contact (phassa) is the conjunction of the three; through contact , FEELING arises; ......., mind consciousness arises. Contact (phassa) is the conjunction of the three; through contact, feeling arises; through feeling desire arises; through desire attachment (upadana) arises; through attachment bhava (process of becoming) arises; through becoming birth arises; through birth decay and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair." Thus a wide range of daily life realities should be understood. We cling to everything, we confuse everything; thus always trying to deconstruct conversation would be wrong. As you say, we must understand feelings also. Avoidance is not the way . Yet, don't we often want to develop understanding only in ideal conditions- we want to avoid distractions. But vipassana understands every moment. What we call "distraction" is only momentary realities, with thinking forming concepts about the situation. When we are developing correctly we don't mind about distraction, we don't mind if we feel irritated sometimes or even if "decay, death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair arise". All these events are real, they are part of samsara, they should be understood . ________ Robert #68715 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Wed Feb 21, 2007 6:51 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Some Thoughts on the Sectarians Sutta (AN 3.61) ken_aitch Hi Sarah, Thank you for this reply. What a marvellous experience it was to read it – and the three linked posts! Just one thing in particular that struck me was, `How many times will I need to hear this Dhamma before it finally begins to sink in?' How many times in the last few years, I wonder, have you pointed out that there were three kinds of wrong view that could amount to akusala kamma patha? And yet it was not until I got to the end of the third linked post (from UP's no doubt) that I finally realized eternalism and annihilationism were not the kinds of wrong view that amounted to akusala kamma patha. (!) Sorry if I have shocked you with this confession. :-) I am still in a state of shock myself! Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Ken H, > > --- ken_aitch wrote: > > > Hi Howard, > > > > I am out of my depth with the Tittha Sutta; I don't know if it deals > > with all sectarian guilds or just three of them. I think that it > > might be the latter, and that they are the sectarian guilds that side > > with annihilationism. > .... > S: BB gives this note: > > "The first view, that all experience is the result of past kamma, is > ascribed by the Buddhists to the Jains. The third view, which denies the > role of human effort, was taught by Makkhali Gosala, a contemporary of the > Buddha, who held that all events were governed by fate (see DN2; MN76). > This doctrine, as well as that of inaction, belongs to the 'wrong views > with fixed destiny' (niyata-micchaa-di.t.thi), i.e views leading to a bad > rebirth." > > We had some discussions before about these views which in effect all deny > kamma, conditions and kammic results leading to views of 'acausalism' > (ahetukavaada), 'inefficacy of action' (akiriyavaada) and moral 'nihilism' > (natthikavaada): > > #68716 From: "Phil" Date: Wed Feb 21, 2007 7:12 pm Subject: Re: A final venting from phil, probably. philofillet Hi Sarah I'll try to keep it brief too. > 1.> The idea that this recommended > > practice could be done by an operation of paramattha dhammas without > > a self involved is absurd. > .... > S: I forget what the practice in question is, but doesn't this make it > sound like you're suggesting that there are paramattha dhammas and a self? Yes, I didn't word this well. I guess I just meant that there are many suttas in which the Buddha recommends very explicity techniques for training the mind. And this training cannot start after wrong view of self has been eliminated. That's an absurd proposition, in the cart-before-the -horse way. I have no doubt whatsoever that the Buddha gave us many techinques for mental training. I know it's not cool to say that, not anatta, and that it sounds to much like Personal Empowerment for Busy People kind of thinking. But it's true. Anguttara Nikaya is chock full of them. I will be sharing them. I know Han especially appreciates these simple, straightforward suttas that help householders to lead more wholesome lives in this lifetime in addition to providing some necessary conditions (there are many others, of course) for deeper attainments down the road. Once I have finally extricaated myself successfully from my venting stage - and I feel taht day is coming soon - I will stick to sharing sutta passages for awhile, the way Han is sharing daana-related texts. > Or are you suggesting that the Buddha recommended a practice involving > wrong view of self for beginners like us? (rhetorical, no need to > respond). I wouldn't put it that way. But it's not far off it. It's premature for us to pretend that we must have the kind of understanding that sees through the vipallasas, and until we do we will have wrong view of self. Of course we will. Isn't it only the sotapanna who doesn't? I'm not saying that we shouldn't develop are udnerstanding of anatta. But we don't have to develop our understanding of anatta by directly understanding the anattaness of dhammas. More cart-before-the-horse there. > Thanks again for your good 'vent', Phil. Looking forward to the further > venting comments and discussion with Jon. I hope neither of you feels > you're being too hasty with your dialogue:-). Thanks for your patience. As I said above, I don't expect this sort of dialogue will be going on much longer. The baseball season is fast approaching, and I am committed to playing fantasy baseball with my brother. (Don't try to understand what that means, but it means a lot of time on the computer!) The alloted computer time will be eaten up by baseball, so I'll probably be taking a DSG break from April to October. Lots of time left in March, though. Metta, Phil #68717 From: "Phil" Date: Wed Feb 21, 2007 7:25 pm Subject: Re: A final venting from phil, probably. philofillet Hi again. >I know Han especially appreciates > these simple, straightforward suttas that help householders to lead > more wholesome lives in this lifetime in addition to providing some > necessary conditions (there are many others, of course) for deeper > attainments down the road. That was a silly thing to write. I take it back. Who knows who appreciates what, and of course, ultimately, there are only dhammas that are doing the appreciating, so the same person appreciates in a different way at different times. BTW, one thing I have never doubted in this period of venting is the truth of "no Nina, no Lodewijk." There are only paramattha dhammas, I do believe that. I guess it's just that we have a different angle on how immediately that must be understood in a way that makes "no Nina, no Lodewijk" a relevant truth, and not just a theoretical understanding that I would think any Buddhist could agree on. But I think Acharn Sujin pushes us towards trying to have too deep an understanding of this very, very deep truth too soon, and by doing so fails to encourage people to follow intentional practices that are sure to help them feel happier and more energetic and more deeply rooted in wholesome habits of body, speech and mind, because they were taught to us by the Buddha for that very purpose. (yes, the ultimate purpose of the holy life is understanding "the All" - and the All is paramattha dhammas - the Buddha made that clear, but we can't go straight for the goal without doing the necessary training to get there.) BTW again, another thing I object to is when Acharn Sujin says, as she often does, "every word in the tiptitaka is about uunderstanding present realities." That is not true. Perhaps every word was spoken by the Buddha for that eventual understanding, but the literal meaning of suttas has to be respected. Digging under every sutta to get at the paramattha is forcing things again, sexiness of wisdom syndrome again. (Sorry I keep using that term, but I really like it :) ) Metta, Phil #68718 From: "colette" Date: Wed Feb 21, 2007 2:17 pm Subject: Mind Only's "Big Bang"? ksheri3 > I don't think it's necessary to be in anyone's shoes in order to > consider the concept of kusala/akusala. colette: What is good/ What is bad? How do you feel about anything since you project an illusion of YOUR KUSALA/AKUSALA. I will enquire: What is good and what is bad I see it as taking the two polar opposites as a singularity, not two but one. LOOK AT THEM! In my case I've had yrs. of meditational experience to bak me up and only now am I seeing the spledor, the beauty, of marial arts experts that have perfected this form of meditation. I can look at it an hear them explain it but it is so lucid and clear in meaning, BECAUSE OF THE MEDITATIONAL PRACTICES, that I just have fun with it. ************************************************ As I understand the teachings, > kusala and akusala relate to specific kinds of mental states, colette: you've said it all, there's more than one way to skin a cat. not to > observable actions or conduct. colette: what is wrong with you? Why can you NOT ACCEPT THE TEACHINGS AND MOVE ON/ > observable why can you not see that you've simply explained the entire teachings of the buddha in a single word? what is "observable consciousness"? ever seen it? Consiousness you have seem. You have OBSERVED CONSCIOUSNESS. The concepts are discussable (but not > the other person's actual experience in terms of mental states). colette: and what the hell are you complaining about? LOL You summed it up pretty well. Now lets see how ya walk through that catwalk of life without making any suggestive moves. Look at Donald Trump recently captitulating by making an appearance on World Wide Wrestiling Television, but if he want's that then I've gotta ask: does THE BLACK HAND = THE INVIBLE HAND? You may care to listen to Queen: The Invisible Man. Bring it on punk. I'm CONNECTED and believe. toodles, colette > > Howard later came back with a reference to the sutta at DN 21 in support > of his comment that his experience must have been kusala because it lead > to more or better meditation practice (msg #66992). I still owe him a > reply on that one ;-)). > > Jon > #68719 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Feb 21, 2007 8:56 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Outstanding Women Acceptance Speech -draft 3 sarahprocter... Hi Ken H, (Jiw and Nina), Thanks for your kind comments. --- ken_aitch wrote: > Hi Sarah and Jon, > > Excellent! Couldn't be better! Don't change a word! .... S: Ha Ha! I just got a call from our friend to say the feedback from Thailand is also positive but now it needs to be reduced to 2 pages (i.e about the original length if I recall:-/). Also, it has now been translated into Thai, so the English version needs to conform with this, so there will be some changes.....:-)) I politely mentioned that I felt rather like Alice trying to understand the rules of the game which keep changing....lol. Jon's too busy in his office and his computer at home has crashed AGAIN -(I think he could possibly match your computer woes)- so on my own this time, I've asked for any requested changes and deletions to be made on our last draft by hand *before* being faxed back, so that all I have to do is key them in. Should be nice and simple, right? Will post the next draft when I send it back- no4 or 5(if you count the longest one that never got sent). Will it be the Final??? Meanwhile Jon's preparing a talk he has to give on law drafting to the Law Society - a piece of cake compared with this, I think. For one thing, he doesn't have to collaborate with me (I don't think we'll be trying to write any talks/articles together again for a good long while!!) and also, he knows the rules of the game from the start! We're all laughing(I mean KS, her friend and ourselves) about the task and all the changes, but actually we're just glad to have tried to help (at this moment anyway!). Metta, Sarah ======= #68720 From: connie Date: Wed Feb 21, 2007 9:03 pm Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (32) nichiconn Dear Friends, Dantikaatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa The commentary on the verses of Therii Dantikaa Divaavihaaraa nikkhammaati-aadikaa dantikaaya theriyaa gaathaa. Ayampi purimabuddhesu kataadhikaaraa tattha tattha bhave viva.t.tuupanissaya.m kusala.m upacinantii buddhasu~n~nakaale candabhaagaaya nadiyaa tiire kinnarayoniya.m nibbatti. The verses beginning Going out from my daytime resting place are Therii Dantikaa's. She too performed meritorious deeds under previous Buddhas and accumulated good [actions] in various lives as [her] basis for release. At a time without a [teaching] Buddha, she was born in the womb of a kinnarii on the banks of the river Candabhaagaa. *153 See Pss. iii., xxiii. Saa ekadivasa.m kinnarehi saddhi.m kii.lantii vicaramaanaa addasa a~n~natara.m paccekabuddha.m a~n~natarasmi.m rukkhamuule divaavihaara.m nisinna.m. Disvaana pasannamaanasaa upasa"nkamitvaa saalapupphehi puuja.m katvaa vanditvaa pakkaami. Saa tena pu~n~nakammena devamanussesu sa.msarantii One day, while playing and walking about with the kinnaras, she saw a certain Pacceka Buddha seated at the foot of a certain tree as his daytime resting place. Seeing him, with her mind favourably disposed towards him, she went up to him and made an offering of saala flowers. Accordingly, through that meritorious deed, she journeyed on among devas and men. imasmi.m buddhuppaade saavatthiya.m kosalara~n~no purohitabraahma.nassa gehe nibbattitvaa vi~n~nuta.m patvaa jetavanapa.tiggaha.ne pa.tiladdhasaddhaa upaasikaa hutvaa pacchaa mahaapajaapatigotamiyaa santike pabbajitvaa raajagahe vasamaanaa ekadivasa.m pacchaabhatta.m gijjhakuu.ta.m abhiruhitvaa divaavihaara.m nisinnaa hatthaarohakassa abhiruhanatthaaya paada.m pasaarenta.m hatthi.m disvaa tadeva aaramma.na.m katvaa vipassana.m va.d.dhetvaa saha pa.tisambhidaahi arahatta.m paapu.ni. In this Buddha era, she was born in the home of the brahman who was the chief minister of the kind of Kosala in Saavatthi. When she came of age, she became a lay follower, having gained faith when the Jeta Grove [monastery] was accepted [by the Buddha]. Afterwards, she went forth in the presence of Mahaa-Pajaapatii Gotamii. One day, while living in Raajagaha, after eating, she climbed Vulture Peak. She sat down there [with that place] as her daytime resting place. Then she saw an elephant stretching out its foot for the elephant rider to mount. Making that her support for contemplation, she increased her insight and attained the state of Arahatship together with the [four] discriminations. Tena vutta.m apadaane (apa. therii 2.2.86-96)- "Candabhaagaanadiitiire ahosi.m kinnarii tadaa; addasa.m viraja.m buddha.m, sayambhu.m aparaajita.m. "Pasannacittaa sumanaa, vedajaataa kata~njalii; saalamaala.m gahetvaana, sayambhu.m abhipuujayi.m. "Tena kammena sukatena, cetanaapa.nidhiihi ca; jahitvaa kinnariideha.m, taavati.msamagacchaha.m. "Chatti.msadevaraajuuna.m, mahesittamakaarayi.m; manasaa patthita.m mayha.m, nibbattati yathicchita.m. As it is said in the Apadaana: At that time I was a kinnarii on the banks of the river Candabhaagaa. I saw a faultless [Pacceka] Buddha who was self-dependent, unconquered. With my mind favourably disposed [toward him], joyful and filled with enthusiasm, I took a garland of saala flowers and honoured the Self-Dependent One. As a result of that virtuous deed and of my resolve and purpose, when I abandoned my kinnarii body, I went to the Taavati.msa realm. I ruled as the chief queen of thirty-six deva kings. Whatever I wished for in my mind came to be just as I wanted it. "Dasanna.m cakkavattiina.m, mahesittamakaarayi.m; ocitattaava hutvaana, sa.msaraami bhavesvaha.m. "Kusala.m vijjate mayha.m, pabbaji.m anagaariya.m; puujaarahaa aha.m ajja, sakyaputtassa saasane. "Visuddhamanasaa ajja, apetamanapaapikaa; sabbaasavaparikkhii.naa, natthi daani punabbhavo. "Catunnavutito kappe, ya.m buddhamabhipuujayi.m; duggati.m naabhijaanaami, saalamaalaayida.m phala.m. I ruled as the chief queen of ten wheel-turning monarchs. My mind having been strengthened, I journeyed on in [many] lives. I have done good actions. I went forth to the homeless state. Today I am worthy of honour within the teaching of the Sone of the Sakyans [the Buddha]. Today my mind is purified, my mind is rid of evil, all my taints have been consumed. Now there is no renewed existence [for me]. In the ninety-one aeons since I gave that gift, I am not aware of [birth in] any realm of misery. This is the consequence of the garland of saala flowers [I gave]. "Kilesaa jhaapitaa mayha.m {, bhavaa sabbe samuuhataa; naagiiva bandhana.m chetvaa, viharaami anaasavaa. "Svaagata.m vata me aasi, buddhase.t.thassa santike; tisso vijjaa anuppattaa, kata.m buddhassa saasana.m. "Pa.tisambhidaa catasso, vimokkhaapi ca a.t.thime; cha.labhi~n~naa sacchikataa,} kata.m buddhassa saasanan"ti. My defilements are burnt out, {all [future] births are completely destroyed. Having severed my bonds like an elephant, I live without taints. Welcome indeed was the presence of the Best of Buddhas to me. I have attained the three true knowledges. I have done the Buddha's teaching. The four discriminations and also the eight liberations are mine. I have realized the six direct knowledges.} I have done the Buddha's teaching. === to be continued, connie #68721 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Feb 21, 2007 9:30 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] music and lyrics sarahprocter... Hi Howard (James & all), Your comments here touch on similar ones you've expressed before: --- upasaka@... wrote: > Howard: > As I see it, not reacting to harsh, mean, or abusive speech with > anger > and other harmful emotions is usefully cultivated in many ways. ... S: Yes, not only *not* reacting with anger, but also seeing that 'righteous' anger or indignation is never wholesome in anyway is very much at the core of the Buddha's teachings as I see it. .... >But I > see at > most temporary value in dealing with improper action by simply ignoring > its > moral nature. That is a practice of blanking out part of reality. .... S: Any practice of 'blanking out' or deliberately 'ignoring' is also not the Middle Way. However, directly understanding the phenomena involved when one sees or hears what one considers to be immoral is the way to go. This is what the sutta is pointing to which Nina quoted. It's not a 'deliberate blanking out' or saying to oneself 'oh, it's only visible object', but the suttas are reminders that really there are only visible objects seen, sounds heard and various ideas and long stories on account of these. The problems in life are *not* outside us as your pragmatic-phenomenolist approach will also tell you. It's the present reaction, the present righteous indignation/upset that's the problem - in other words, the attachment to things being a certain way which conditions this reaction. ..... >There > is *not* > only hearing. Improper speech issues forth from mindstates that are > quite > real, and being aware of speech as "only sounds" without going more > deeply is not > being awake and aware, but blanking out. .... S: Sometimes it's our duty or job to point this out or one may feel one can usefully assist by writing letters to the media, joining a protest or whatever. Fine as long as one doesn't set rules about it! But again, the realities (or dhammas if you prefer) are what they are at any moment and any reaction of indignation (or dosa of any kind) is always akusala as we're reminded about so often in the suttas. We all have emotional reactions/outbursts from time to time and this is very natural. However, if we have the idea that there is something healthy in such reactions and that they are to be cultivated as being an important human response in some way, then I think we just become more and more disturbed and agitated in life. It doesn't help anyone and we probably become more difficult to live with. Also, it doesn't change the nature of the video!! ...... >Dhamma practice is *not* a > matter of > restricting awareness, except on rare occasions as necessary, but of > expanding it and clarifying it. > ---------------------------------- .... S: I agree that any idea about 'restricting awareness' (even on rare occasions) is not the path at all. Also, ideas or 'expanding it and clarifying it' are not the path. Either way, there is no understanding or awareness of the present dhamma appearing which has been conditioned already. Metta, Sarah ====== #68722 From: han tun Date: Wed Feb 21, 2007 10:05 pm Subject: [dsg] Daana Corner (04) hantun1 Dear Dhamma Friends, This is taken from “The Practice of Giving” by Susan Elbaum Jootla. [Susan Elbaum Jootla is an American Buddhist living in northern India and a long-term practitioner of vipassana meditation in the tradition of Sayagyi U Ba Khin. Her previous BPS publications include Investigation for Insight (Wheel No. 301/302) and Inspiration from Enlightened Nuns (Wheel No. 349/350).] Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ------------------------------ [The inspiration and basic material for this essay come from The Perfection of Generosity (Dana Parami), by Saya U Chit Tin, published as No. 3 in the Dhamma Series of the Sayagyi U Ba Khin Memorial Trust, U.K., Splatts House, Heddington near Calne, Wiltshire, England. I am deeply grateful to Saya U Chit Tin and to all the other teachers associated with the International Meditation Centres at Heddington, U.K. and Rangoon, Burma. - Susan Elbaum Jootla.] Giving (dana) is one of the essential preliminary steps of Buddhist practice. When practiced in itself, it is a basis of merit or wholesome kamma. When coupled with morality, concentration and insight, it leads ultimately to liberation from samsara, the cycle of repeated existence. Even those who are well-established on the path to emancipation continue to practice giving as it is conducive to wealth, beauty and pleasure in their remaining lifetimes. Bodhisattas complete the danaparami or perfection of giving to the ultimate degree by happily donating their limbs and their very lives to help other beings. Like all good deeds, an act of giving will bring us happiness in the future, in accordance with the kammic law of cause and effect taught by the Buddha. Giving yields benefits in the present life and in lives to come whether or not we are aware of this fact, but when the volition is accompanied by understanding, we can greatly increase the merits earned by our gifts. The amount of merit gained varies according to three factors: the quality of the donor's motive, the spiritual purity of the recipient, and the kind and size of the gift. Since we have to experience the results of our actions, and good deeds lead to good results and bad deeds to bad results, it is sensible to try to create as much good kamma as possible. In the practice of giving, this would mean keeping one's mind pure in the act of giving, selecting the worthiest recipients available, and choosing the most appropriate and generous gifts one can afford. To be continued. Han #68723 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Wed Feb 21, 2007 10:13 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Persons egberdina Thanks, Scott, for the clarification On 22/02/07, Scott Duncan wrote: > Hi Herman, > > > No, I don't think I see the world as arising in dependence on mind, > that is if by 'world' you are referring to something other than > concept. If you pinch yourself, when I'm not thinking of you, you will > feel it. > > I'm suggesting that the separateness of 'beings' - the separate > aggregates conceptualised as 'beings' - is a reality. That which > arises within in one stream stays within one stream. How might one > understand, for example, those events whereby the hearing of the > Dhamma, say as spoken by the Buddha - an other - was able to cause to > arise in one listening the Noble Man - the fruition consciousness of > the Arahat. Or what does adosa arising in you, with 'me' as object, > end up having to do with 'me'? > If you are saying that intentional consciousness cannot be determined by things external to it, then I agree. As to what arises in individual streams, I would say that individual streams flow in a shared world. So individual streams have much in common, and this is the basis for communication. But the shared world is devoid of meaning, and it is the nature of streams to intend the world to be this way or that. My intentions towards the world can certainly cause the shared world to be different than it otherwise would be, both for myself and others. But I cannot intend the intentions of another stream, much to my dismay. In short, me cutting of your arms with a blunt saw does not force/necessitate an angry response, or any other response, on your behalf. And with regards to fruition consciousness, that is freely available. Just ask any pacceka-buddha. :-) Kind Regards Herman #68724 From: connie Date: Wed Feb 21, 2007 10:07 pm Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (32) nichiconn Dear Friends, Therii Dantikaa, part 2: arahatta.m pana patvaa attano pa.tipatti.m paccavekkhitvaa piitisomanassajaataa udaanavasena- 48. "divaavihaaraa nikkhamma, gijjhakuu.tamhi pabbate; naaga.m ogaahamutti.n.na.m, nadiitiiramhi addasa.m. 49. "Puriso a"nkusamaadaaya, 'dehi paadan'ti yaacati; naago pasaarayii paada.m, puriso naagamaaruhi. 50. "Disvaa adanta.m damita.m, manussaana.m vasa.m gata.m; tato citta.m samaadhesi.m, khalu taaya vana.m gataa"ti.- Imaa gaathaa abhaasi. After attaining Arahatship and looking over her attainments, joy and gladness having arisen, she spoke these verses as a solemn utterance: 48. Going out form my daytime resting place on Mount Gijjhakuu.ta, I saw an elephant on the bank of the river, having come up after plunging in. 49. A man, taking a hook, requested the elephant, "Give me your foot." The elephant stretched forth its foot; the man mounted the elephant. 50. Seeing the untamed tamed, gone under the control of men, I then concentrated my mind, gone to the forest for that purpose indeed. RD: Coming from noonday-rest on Vulture's Peak, I saw an elephant, his bathe performed, Forth from the river issue. And a man, (48) Taking his goad, bade the great creature *154 stretch His foot: 'Give me thy foot!' The elephant Obeyed, and to his neck the driver sprang. (49) I saw the untamed tamed, *155 I saw him bent To master's will; and marking inwardly, I passed into the forest depths and there I' faith I trained and ordered all my heart. (50) *154 Naaga, a more poetic term for elephant. *155 Dantikaa = little tamed (woman). Tattha naaga.m ogaahamutti.n.nanti hatthinaaga.m nadiya.m ogaaha.m katvaa ogayha tato utti.n.na.m. "Ogayha mutti.n.nan"ti vaa paa.tho. Ma-kaaro padasandhikaro. Nadiitiiramhi addasanti candabhaagaaya nadiyaa tiire apassi.m. 48. There, an elephant (naaga.m) ... having come up after plunging in (ogaaha-m-utti.n.na.m) means: an elephant (hatthi0naaga.m) having plunged into (ogaaha.m katvaa) the river, having plunged in (ogayha) then came up (utti.n.na.m). Alternatively, there is the reading "having come up after plunging in" (ogayha-m-utti.n.na.m). The letter m [in ogaaha-m-utti.n.na.m] makes a euphonic combination of [two] words. I saw (addasa.m) ... on the bank of the river (nadiyaa tiire) Candabhaagaa. Ki.m karontanti ceta.m dassetu.m vutta.m "puriso"ti-aadi. Tattha 'dehi paadan'ti yaacatiiti "paada.m dehi"iti pi.t.thi-aarohanattha.m paada.m pasaaretu.m sa~n~na.m deti, yathaaparicita~nhi sa~n~na.m dento idha yaacatiiti vutto. 49. What was it doing? That was siad to point to the words beginning with "a man." There, [he] requested [the elephant], "Give me your foot" means: he gave a signal meaning "Give your foot" [for the elephant] to stretch forth its foot in order to climb on its back. The meaning is, he requested in this case by giving accordingly the accustomed signal. Disvaa adanta.m damitanti pakatiyaa pubbe adanta.m idaani hatthaacariyena hatthisikkhaaya damitadamatha.m upagamita.m. Kiidisa.m damita.m? 50. Seeing the untamed tamed (damita.m) means: the one that was by nature not tamed previously, now is tamed with the elephant disciple by the elephant trainer, has arrived at restraint (damatha.m). Tamed in what way? Manussaana.m vasa.m gata.m ya.m ya.m manussaa aa.naapenti, ta.m ta.m disvaati yojanaa. Tato citta.m samaadhesi.m, khalu taaya vana.m gataati khaluuti avadhaara.natthe nipaato. Tato hatthidassanato pacchaa, taaya hatthino kiriyaaya hetubhuutaaya, vana.m ara~n~na.m gataa citta.m samaadhesi.myeva. Gone under the control of men means: whatever men command, he sees it; this is to be understood. Thus [she said] I then concentrated my mind, gone to the forest for that purpose indeed. Indeed (khalu) is a particle of emphasis. Then (tato) [means:] after seeing the elephant. For that purpose (taaya) [means:] because the action of the elephant was the cause, gone to the forest (vana.m = ara~n~na.m), just so I concentrated my mind. Katha.m? "Ayampi naama tiracchaanagato hatthii hatthidamakassa vasena damatha.m gato, kasmaa manussabhuutaaya citta.m purisadamakassa satthu vasena damatha.m na gamissatii"ti sa.mvegajaataa vipassana.m va.d.dhetvaa aggamaggasamaadhinaa mama citta.m samaadhesi.m accantasamaadhaanena sabbaso kilese khepesinti attho. How? Indeed, even this animal the elephant has arrived at restraint through the control of the elephant trainer. Thinking, "Why does the mind of someone who has become a human being not arrive at restraint through the power of the Teacher, the Tamer of Men?", a profound stirring arose [in her] and she increased her insight. I concentrated my mind through the concentration of the highest path. The meaning is: I destroyed all my defilements through intense concentration. Dantikaatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa ni.t.thitaa. Here ends the commentary on the verses by another Therii Dantikaa. ======= peace, connie #68725 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Feb 21, 2007 10:14 pm Subject: Outstanding Women Acceptance Speech -draft 4 (Final????) sarahprocter... All, possibly the Final, but comments/suggested amendments still welcome! ======================= Outstanding Women in Buddhism Award Acceptance speech ***** Venerables, Ladies & Gentlemen I am honoured to have been chosen to receive this recognition from the Awards Committee to mark the United Nations International Women's Day. In accepting this award, I would first like to say a few words about women and Buddhism. Many people associate Buddhism with Buddhist monks, but anyone who follows the Buddha's teachings can realize the truth. Thus his followers are composed of 4 categories of persons: • monks and nuns (bhikkhus and bhikkhuniis), and • male and female lay-followers. During the Buddha's lifetime there was a large order of nuns (bhikkhuniis) and there were many eminent female lay-followers. I would like to mention two shining examples from the time of the Buddha of lay-women who developed the path. Visaakhaa was the daughter of a rich merchant. When she was only 7 years old she visited the Buddha, listened to his teaching and attained the first of the four levels of enlightenment. She remained a lay-follower for the rest of her life, marrying and having a large number of sons and daughters and grandchildren. She visited the Buddha frequently to listen to his discourses and attended daily to the needs of monks. She was declared by the Buddha to be the foremost among the female lay disciples who ministered to the Order and she excelled in generosity. Khujjuttaraa was another outstanding lay-woman in Buddhism. She was a slave-woman to Queen Saamaavati. One day she heard the Buddha preach and attained the first of the four levels of enlightenment. She too remained a lay-follower for the rest of her life. She continued living in the same household, teaching to the Queen and the Queen's five hundred women attendants the Dhamma she heard on her frequent visits to the Buddha. She was declared by the Buddha to be the foremost among lay women with knowledge of the teachings. These truly were `outstanding women in Buddhism'. The name ‘Buddha’ comes from the word meaning ‘enlightened’. The Buddha was enlightened to the way things truly are. The way things truly are is called the Dhamma. From the time of his enlightenment until his death some 45 years later, the Buddha taught the Dhamma to those who were able to receive and understand it. But because of the lack of developed understanding, those who have not heard the Buddha's teachings take these dhammas to be people and things. The Buddha taught in great detail about how this understanding is to be developed, and what are the conditions for that development to occur. In a nutshell, those conditions are simply: • hearing the teachings, and • appreciating the value of gaining a better understanding of the teachings. If these two factors occur frequently in a person’s life, there can be the development of the path. That development is independent of almost everything else: one’s age, education, occupation or livelihood, IQ, marital status, state of health, mode of living, personality, and gender too. As the Buddha himself put it [SN 55:55-61]: “Bhikkhus, these four things, when developed and cultivated, lead to the obtaining of wisdom,…to the growth of wisdom,….to the expansion of wisdom,…to the realization of the fruit of stream-entry,…to the realization of the fruit of arahantship. What four? • Association with superior persons, • hearing the true Dhamma, • careful attention, • practice in accordance with the Dhamma…….” We should know the purpose of listening to the Dhamma. The purpose is not to obtain something for oneself, it is not honour or fame; it is not being admired as a clever person who is full of wisdom. The purpose is knowing oneself, realising one’s lack of understanding of dhammas, one’s ignorance of, for example, visible object that appears through the eyes or sound that appears through the ears now. Understanding the teachings, and helping others to understand and see the value of the teachings, is the most important thing in the world. Social support is endless – it doesn't bring peace of mind. Without an understanding of the Buddha's teaching it's impossible to really alleviate suffering because we never get to the roots of the problems, the real cause of ignorance, greed and mental anguish in our worlds. The truth of our common suffering was perfectly penetrated and expounded by the Buddha. It is not a truth known by men in one way, and by women another way. At the root of the suffering of all beings is the seemingly unquenchable thirst and craving for the six worlds. The truth of this reality of craving as the root of suffering was also perfectly penetrated and expounded by the Buddha. By understanding the cause of the problems in the world as we know it, he appreciated that the only effective way to overcome problems is to understand the realities of the six worlds, in order to make the world a better place for men and women. I wish everyone a peaceful world with more and more understanding. ================================================== Metta, Sarah & Jonothan ================ #68726 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Feb 21, 2007 10:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Some Thoughts on the Sectarians Sutta (AN 3.61) sarahprocter... Hi Ken H (& Howard & Herman), (Howard, thanks for your interest too!) --- ken_aitch wrote: > Just one thing in particular that struck me was, `How many times will > I need to hear this Dhamma before it finally begins to sink in?' ... S: Oh, same for all of us too.... .... > How many times in the last few years, I wonder, have you pointed out > that there were three kinds of wrong view that could amount to > akusala kamma patha? .... S: I'm not sure that I've spelled it out in this way. We do know however that denial of kamma and its results is the most serious kind of wrong view (which all the 3 views in the sutta point to) because when one denies kamma (and other conditions) as in the AN sutta, one can do anything. It leads to all sorts of other kinds of akusala kamma patha. ... >And yet it was not until I got to the end of > the third linked post (from UP's no doubt) that I finally realized > eternalism and annihilationism were not the kinds of wrong view that > amounted to akusala kamma patha. (!) .... S: Usually, as I understand, in order to be akusala kamma patha, it's not just have a wrong idea in the mind, but there has to be wrong deeds performed through speech or action. So it's not just the wrong idea of killing as being OK, but the performing of the deed itself which is akusala kamma patha. In other words, all the factors have to be in place. .... > Sorry if I have shocked you with this confession. :-) I am still in a > state of shock myself! .... S: I think that anything concerned with the intricacies kamma and kamma-patha is tricky - so nothing anyone would say along these lines would shock me! Actually, your post helped me to consider this topic a little further and I'm still groping in the dark too! Thanks Ken H! Metta, Sarah p.s You'll be glad to hear that after several months of correspondence with the NSW ambulance department (mostly ignored their end after getting the cash) and our insurance (mostly ignored because NSW ambulance dept are not allowed to give a diagnosis on the receipt by law), I eventually got reimbursed for my little head-wound excursion, only to have to fork it up now for Jon's computer repairs:-/ And I've just told Howard that righteous indignation is a 'no-no'!! Yes, Herman - all p.ds, no matter how much Ken and I rave on.... =========== #68727 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Wed Feb 21, 2007 10:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Daana Corner (04) egberdina Hi Han, The economics of dana are fascinating. > > Like all good deeds, an act of giving will bring us > happiness in the future, in accordance with the kammic > law of cause and effect taught by the Buddha. Giving > yields benefits in the present life and in lives to > come whether or not we are aware of this fact, but > when the volition is accompanied by understanding, we > can greatly increase the merits earned by our gifts. > This sounds like dana is actually an investment fund, a superannuation fund. And the recipient upon maturity? SELF. > The amount of merit gained varies according to three > factors: the quality of the donor's motive, the > spiritual purity of the recipient, and the kind and > size of the gift. Since we have to experience the > results of our actions, and good deeds lead to good > results and bad deeds to bad results, it is sensible > to try to create as much good kamma as possible. In > the practice of giving, this would mean keeping one's > mind pure in the act of giving, selecting the > worthiest recipients available, and choosing the most > appropriate and generous gifts one can afford. > Christians have this idea too. 1 Timothy 6:19. "By doing this they store up a treasure for themselves which is a good foundation for the future, that they may lay hold on the life which is life indeed". The giving of material gifts is the giving of that which is scarce and therefore subject to attachment, and that which is subject to decay. And before you can give it, you must have it. Who in their right mind would recommend giving such gifts? And who in their right mind would receive such gifts? Kind Regards Herman #68728 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Wed Feb 21, 2007 11:18 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Some Thoughts on the Sectarians Sutta (AN 3.61) rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > of other kinds of akusala kamma patha. > ... > >And yet it was not until I got to the end of > > the third linked post (from UP's no doubt) that I finally realized > > eternalism and annihilationism were not the kinds of wrong view that > > amounted to akusala kamma patha. (!) > .... > S: Usually, as I understand, in order to be akusala kamma patha, it's not > just have a wrong idea in the mind, but there has to be wrong deeds > performed through speech or action. So it's not just the wrong idea of > killing as being OK, but the performing of the deed itself which is > akusala kamma patha. In other words, all the factors have to be in place. > .... Dear Sarah extreme wrong views like natthika-ditthi, that deny kamma and rebirth, are akusala kamma patha and holding them results in birth in lower realms upon death. They are akusala kamma patha though mind. Robert #68729 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Feb 21, 2007 6:39 pm Subject: A Question to Ask upasaka_howard Hi, all - It has occurred to me that it might be instructive to ask materalists what is their understanding of the state of death, and, to recall what was your own understanding of it when you were a materialist, if you ever were. I believe that the answer in both cases would be "a state of nothingness with no experience of anything whatsoever in any sense occuring - a complete and utter nothing". It then occurs to me to be instructive to consider the final nibbana of those Buddhists who take it to be an absolute lack of any and all experience in every possible sense, and to compare that with the perspective on death discussed above. I find them to be one and the same. If no difference can be pointed out to me, then I find myself having to see such a nibbana as no different from death, to see taking such a nibbana as a goal as suicidal - as one of the three cravings: the craving for nonbecoming (abhaava), and to see such a Buddhism as what some accuse the Dhamma lf itself as being, a species of nihilism. With metta, Howard #68730 From: connie Date: Thu Feb 22, 2007 12:26 am Subject: re Abh. Ch 24, death of arahat nichiconn Dear James, maybe you were thinking of something along the lines of how that "death" is described in the Brahmajaala Sutta? 147. "The body of the Tathaagata, bhikkhus, stands with the leash that bound it to existence cut. As long as his body stands, gods and men shall see him. But with the breakup of the body and the exhaustion of the life-faculty, gods and men shall see him no more. "Just as, bhikkhus, when the stalk of a bunch of mangoes has been cut all the mangoes connected to the stalk follow along with it, in the same way, the body of the Tathaagata stands with the leash that bound it to existence cut. As long as his body stands, gods and men shall see him. But with the breakup of the body and the exhaustion of the life-faculty, gods and men shall see him no more." peace, connie J: Technically, the arahant doesn't experience "death"; he/she experiences paranibbana. To the observer it appears to be like death, but it is really nothing like the experience of death" (which is dukkha). Paranibbana isn't dukkha in the slightest. #68731 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Thu Feb 22, 2007 12:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Question to Ask egberdina Hi Howard, A good question, and well put. On 22/02/07, upasaka@... wrote: > Hi, all - > > It has occurred to me that it might be instructive to ask materalists > what is their understanding of the state of death, and, to recall what was > your own understanding of it when you were a materialist, if you ever were. I > believe that the answer in both cases would be "a state of nothingness with no > experience of anything whatsoever in any sense occuring - a complete and utter > nothing". Yes, a non-conscious state. And because it is non-conscious, it is not even a state. > It then occurs to me to be instructive to consider the final nibbana > of those Buddhists who take it to be an absolute lack of any and all experience > in every possible sense, and to compare that with the perspective on death > discussed above. I find them to be one and the same. If no difference can be > pointed out to me, then I find myself having to see such a nibbana as no > different from death, to see taking such a nibbana as a goal as suicidal - as one of > the three cravings: the craving for nonbecoming (abhaava), and to see such a > Buddhism as what some accuse the Dhamma lf itself as being, a species of > nihilism. The world is a funny place. In the West we have good Christians/Jews/Muslims looking forward to a conscious eternity, and in the East we have good Buddhists and others dreading the thought of eternal rebirth. I am in no doubt from the Suttas, that the Buddhist quest is to get of that damn stupid wheel and end the cycle of rebirths. I agree with your summation of that quest, and so does the Vatican. I think it was the previous Pope who wrote "The Buddhist tradition and the methods deriving from it have an almost exclusively negative soteriology (doctrine of salvation)." I can say these things in good faith, because I'm only half a Buddhist. The First and Second Noble Truths are undeniable truths. The Third and Fourth are, in my mind, a quest for a permanent extinction of consciousness. While this aim is entirely understandable, given the First and Second Truths, I think it is very misguided, because it is impossible to realise. Kind Regards Herman #68732 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Feb 22, 2007 12:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Some Thoughts on the Sectarians Sutta (AN 3.61) sarahprocter... Hi Robert & all, Thanks for your input. I agree that what I wrote may not have been clear. --- rjkjp1 wrote: > > S: Usually, as I understand, in order to be akusala kamma patha, > it's not > > just have a wrong idea in the mind, but there has to be wrong deeds > > performed through speech or action. So it's not just the wrong idea > of > > killing as being OK, but the performing of the deed itself which is > > akusala kamma patha. In other words, all the factors have to be in > place. > > .... > > Dear Sarah > extreme wrong views like natthika-ditthi, that deny kamma and > rebirth, are akusala kamma patha and holding them results in birth in > lower realms upon death. They are akusala kamma patha though mind. .... S: Yes, if they are firmly held, this is so. That's why I wrote (in the same message): >S: We do know however that denial of kamma and its results is the most serious kind of wrong view (which all the 3 views in the sutta point to) because when one denies kamma (and other conditions) as in the AN sutta, one can do anything. It leads to all sorts of other kinds of akusala kamma patha.< ..... S: It is akusala kamma patha when strongly held (like the examples given in the sutta) AND it leads to all sorts of other kinds of akusala kamma patha. Let me add the extract from 'Cetasikas' which I referred to in a link as well: ..... >There are many kinds of wrong views and they are of different degrees. Three kinds of wrong view are unwholesome courses of action, akusala kamma patha, through the mind, and these are capable of causing an unhappy rebirth. They are the following three views: * 1) There is no result of kamma (natthika-diììhi) 2) There are no causes (in happening, ahetuka-diììhi) 3) There is no such thing as kamma (akiriya-diììhi) * As regards the first view, this was taught by Ajita Kesakambali(2). He also taught that there is annihilation at death. The second view was taught by Makkhalí. He taught that there is no cause for the depravity or purity of beings, that there is no human effort and that all living creatures are “bent by fate, chance and nature”(3). The third view was taught by Púraùa Kassapa(4). He denied that there is akusala kamma and kusala kamma. The tormenting of others is not an evil deed according to him. Although these three views are distinct from each other, they are nevertheless related. When one does not see kamma as cause one does not see its result either, and when one does not see the result of kamma, one does not see kamma as cause either(5). The above-mentioned three wrong views are akusala kamma patha through the mind if one is firmly convinced about them. These three views in particular are very dangerous, they can give rise to many evil deeds. There are many other kinds of wrong views and, although they are not akusala kamma patha, they are still dangerous. The scriptures often refer to the eternalistic view and to the annihilationistic view. Eternalism is the belief that there is a “self” who is permanent. Annihilationism is the belief that there is a “self” who will be annihilated after death. There is also a “semieternalistic view”: one holds that some phenomena are eternal while others are not. One may sometimes cling to the eternalistic view and sometimes to the annihilistic view. *** 2) Middle Length Sayings II, no. 60, On the Sure, 401. 3) Ibidem, 407, and see also Dialogues of the Buddha I, no. 2, “The Fruits of the Life of a Recluse”, 54. 4) Middle Length Sayings II, no. 60, 404. 5) See also Kindred Sayings III, Khandha-vagga, Kindred Sayings on Views, I, §5-7, and Dialogues of the Buddha I, no. 2, 52-56, and Atthasåliní I, Part III, Chapter V, 101.< .... Metta, Sarah ======== #68733 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Feb 22, 2007 1:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Theriigaathaa - Sisters (19) sarahprocter... Hi Connie and All in the Sisters Corner, --- connie wrote: > > -- Abhiruupa-Nandaa theriigaathaava.n.nanaa, part 1 ... S: This one is interesting because it was in spite of her wishes to avoid the Buddha that she listened and became enlightened. First of all, she didn't intend to become a bhikkhuni at all: ... > During this Buddha era, she was reborn in the womb of the chief wife of Khemaka the Sakyan in the town of Kapilavatthu. She was named Nandaa. She was known as Abhiruupa-Nandaa ["beautiful Nandaa"] because of the exceeding beauty of her body, [being] beautiful (abhiruupa), fair to behold, of serene loveliness. Now on the very day of her marriage, when she came of age, [her fiancee] the young Sakyan Varabhuuta died. Then > her mother and father reluctantly had her go forth.< ... Secondly, after ordaining, she tried as best she could to avoid listening to the Buddha: > But although she went forth, she was intoxicated by her beauty and > said, "The Teacher disparages and finds fault with beauty. In many ways he shows the danger of beautiful form." And she did not go in attendance on the Buddha. The Blessed One knew of her mature knowledge, so he gave orders to Mahaa-Pajaapatii Gotamii, saying "All the bhikkhuniis are to come in turn for instruction." When [Abhiruupa-Nandaa's] own turn came, she sent someone else. The Blessed One said, "When your turn comes, you must come yourself; someone else must not be sent." She was not able to ignore the Teacher's order, so she went to attend on the Buddha together with the bhikkhuniis.< ... > With his supernormal powers the Blessed One made the form of a beautiful > woman appear, then showed it decrepit with age, causing a profound > stirring to arise in her. And he spoke these two verses: > 19. Nandaa, see the body, diseased, impure, rotten. Develop the mind, intent and well concentrated, for contemplation of the unpleasant. > 20. And develop the signless, cast out the latent tendency to conceit. > Then by the full understanding of conceit, you will wander, stilled.< ****** S: She had the good fortune to be born at this time - only a Buddha could have known she was so ripe for enlightenment in spite of her conceit and resistance to listening to him. By the end of this verse she had become an arahant. Metta, Sarah ========= #68734 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Thu Feb 22, 2007 1:50 am Subject: Re: A Question to Ask christine_fo... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, all - > > It has occurred to me that it might be instructive to ask materalists > what is their understanding of the state of death, and, to recall what was > your own understanding of it when you were a materialist, if you ever were. I > believe that the answer in both cases would be "a state of nothingness with no > experience of anything whatsoever in any sense occuring - a complete and utter > nothing". > It then occurs to me to be instructive to consider the final nibbana > of those Buddhists who take it to be an absolute lack of any and all experience > in every possible sense, and to compare that with the perspective on death > discussed above. I find them to be one and the same. If no difference can be > pointed out to me, then I find myself having to see such a nibbana as no > different from death, to see taking such a nibbana as a goal as suicidal - as one of > the three cravings: the craving for nonbecoming (abhaava), and to see such a > Buddhism as what some accuse the Dhamma lf itself as being, a species of > nihilism. > > With metta, > Howard Hello Howard, Herman, all, This is worth discussing. I can understand how, believing that Nibbaana is annihilation, many beings simply seek to 'make merit' to gain a comfortable rebirth. This is very long ~ apologies all - I had to type the text out of Bhikkhu Bodhi's Anthology of Discourses from the Paali Canon "In the Buddha's Words' p. 317/8/9 (ISBN 0-86171-491-1) I hope it can be a reference for continuing the discussion. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ IX,5 The Goal of Wisdom. The Four Noble Truths not only serve as the objective domain of wisdom but also define its purpose, which is enshrined in the third noble truth, the cessation of suffering. The cessation of suffering is Nibbaana, and thus the goal of wisdom, the end toward which the cultivation of wisdom moves, is the attainment of Nibbaana. But what exactly is meant by Nibbaana? The suttas explain Nibbaana in a number of ways. Some, such as Text, 5 (1), define Nibbaana simply as the destruction of lust, hatred, and delusion. Others, such as the series comprised in Text IX, 5 (2), employ metaphors and images to convey a more concrete idea of the ultimate goal. Nibbaana is still the destruction of lust, hatred, and delusion, but as such it is, among other things, peaceful, deathless, sublime, wonderful, and amazing. Such descriptions indicate that Nibbaana is a state of supreme happiness, peace, and freedom to be experienced in this present life. "A few suttas, most notably a pair in the Udana - included here as Texts IX, 5 (3) and IX,m 5 (4) - suggest that Nibbaana is not simply the destruction of defilements and an exalted feeling of psychological well-being. They speak of Nibbaana almost as if it were a transcendent state or dimension of being. Text IX, 5 (3) refers to Nibbaana as a "base" (aayatana) beyond the world of common experience where none of the physical elements or even the subtle formless dimensions of experience are present; it is a state completely quiescent, without arising, perishing, or change. Text IX, 5 (4) calls it the state that is "unborn, unmade, unbecome, [and] unconditioned: (ajaata.m, akata.m, abhuuta.m, asankhata.m), the existence of which makes possible deliverance from all that is born, made, come-to-be, and conditioned. How are we to correlate these two perspectives on Nibbaana found in the Nikaayas, one treating it as an experiential state of inward purity and sublime bliss, the other as an unconditioned state transcending the empirical world? Commentators, both Buddhists and outsiders, have tried to connect these two aspects of Nibbaana in different ways. Their interpretations generally reflect the proclivity of the interpreter as much as they do the texts themselves. The way that seems most faithful to both aspects of Nibbaana delineated in the texts is to regard the attainment of Nibbaana as a state of freedom and happiness attained by realizing, with profound wisdom, the unconditioned and transcendent element the state that is intrinsically tranquil and forever beyond suffering. The penetration of this element brings the destruction of defilements, culminating in complete purification of mind. Such purification is accompanied by the experience of perfect peace and happiness in this present life. With the breakup of the body at physical death, it brings irreversible release from the beginningless round of rebirths. The suttas speak of two "elements of Nibbaana," the Nibbaana element with residue remaining (sa-upaadisesa-nibbaanadhaatu) and the Nibbaana element without residue remaining (anupaadisesa-nibbaana- dhaatu). Text IX, 5 (5) explains the Nibbaana element with residue remaining to be the destruction of lust, hatred, and delusion attained by an arahant while still alive. The "residue" that remains is the composite of the five aggregates that was brought into being by the ignorance and craving of the past life and that must continue on until the end of the lifespan. As to the Nibbaana element without residue remaining, the same text says only that when the arahant passes away, all that is felt, not being delighted in, will become cool right here. Since there is no more clinging to the five aggregates, and no more craving for fresh experience through a new set of aggregates, the occurrence of the aggregates comes to an end and cannot continue. The process of the five aggregates is "extinguished" (the literal meaning of Nibbaana). The Buddha says nothing at all, however, in terms either of existence or nonexistence, about the condition of the arahant after death. It might seem logical to suppose that since the five aggregates that constitute experience completely cease with the attainment of the Nibbaana element without residue, this element must itself be a state of complete nonexistence, a state of nothingness. Yet no text in the Nikaayas ever states this. To the contrary, the Nikaayas consistently refer to Nibbaana by terms that refer to actualities. It is an element (dhaatu), a base (aayatana), a reality (dhamma), a state (pada), and so on. However, though so designated, it is qualified in ways that indicate this state ultimately lies beyond all familiar categories and concepts. In Text IX, 5 (6), the wanderer Vacchagotta asks the Buddha whether the Tathaagata - here signifying one who has attained the supreme goal - is reborn (upapajjati) or not after death. The Buddha refuses to concede any of the four alternatives. To say that the Tathaagata is reborn, is not reborn, both is and is not reborn, neither is nor is not reborn - none of these is acceptable, for all accept the term Tathaagata as indicative of a real being, while from an internal point of view a Tathaagata has given up all clinging to notions of a real being. The Buddha illustrates this point with the simile of an extinguished fire. Just as a fire that has been extinguished cannot be said to have gone anywhere but must simply be said to have "gone out", so with the breakup of the body the Tathaagata does not go anywhere but has simply "gone out". The past participle nibbuta, used to describe a fire that has been extinguished, is related to the noun nibbaana, which literally means "extinguishing". Yet, if this simile suggests a Buddhist version of the "annihilationist" view of the arahant's fate after his demise, this impression would rest on a misunderstanding, on a wrong perception of the arahant as a "self" or "person" that is annihilated. Our problem is understanding the state of the Tathaagata after death is c compounded by our difficulty in understanding the state of the Tathaagata even while alive. The simile of the great ocean underscores this difficulty. Since the Tathaaata no longer identifies with the five aggregates that constitute individual identity, he cannot be reckoned in terms of them, whether individually or collectively. Freed from reckoning in terms of the five aggregates, the Tathaagata transcends our understanding. Like the great ocean, he is "deep, immeasurable, [and] hard to fathom." 5. THE GOAL OF WISDOM (1) What is Nibbaana? On one occasion the Venerable Saariputta was dwelling in Magadha at Naalakagaama. The wanderer Jambukhaadaka approached the Venerable Saariputta and exchanged greetings with him. When they had concluded their greetings and cordial talk, he sat down to one side and said to the Venerable Saariputta: "Friend Saariputta, it is said, 'Nibbaana, Nibbaana.' What now is Nibbaana?" "The destruction of lust, the destruction of hatred, the destruction of delusion: this, friend, is called Nibbaana. "But, friend, is that a path, is there a way for the realization of this Nibbaana?" "There is a path, friend, there is a way for the realization of this Nibbaana." "And what, friend, is that path, what is that way for the realization of this Nibbaana?" "It is, friend, this Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view, right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. This is the path, friend, this is the way for the realization of this Nibbaana." "Excellent is the path, friend, excellent is the way for the realization of this Nibbaana. And it is enough, friend Saariputta, for diligence." (SN 38:1, IV 251-52) (2) Thirty-Three Synonyms for Nibbaana "Monks, I will teach you the unconditioned and the path leading to the unconditioned. Listen... "And what, monks, is the unconditioned? The destruction of lust, the destruction of hatred, the destruction of delusion: this is called the unconditioned. "Monks, I will teach you the uninclined...the taintless...the truth...the far shore...the subtle...the very difficult to see...the unaging...the stable...the undisintegrating...the unmanifest...the unproliferated...the peaceful...the deathless...the sublime...the auspicious...the secure...the destruction of craving...the wonderful...the amazing...the unailing...the unailing state...Nibbaana...the unafflicted...dispassion...purity...freedom...nonattachment...the island...the shelter...the asylum...the refuge...the destination and the path leading to the destination. Listen.... 'And what, monks, is the destination? The destruction of lust, the destruction of hatred, the destruction of delusion: this is called the destination. "And what , monks, is the path leading to the destination? Mindfulness directed to the body: this is called the path leading to the destination. "Thus, monks, I have taught you the unconditioned...the destination and the path leading to the destination. Whatever should be done, monks, by a compassionate teacher out of compassion for his disciples, desiring their welfare, that I have done for you. These are the roots of trees, monks, these are empty huts. Meditate, monks, do not be negligent, lest you regret it later. This is my instruction to you." (SN 43:1-44, combined; IV 359-73) (3) There is That Base Thus have I heard. At one time the Blessed One was dwelling at Saavatthii in Jeta's Grove, Anaathapi.n.dika's Park. Now on that occasion the Blessed One was instructing, rousing, inspiring, and gladdening the monks with a Dhamma talk connected with Nibbaana, and those monks were receptive and attentive, concentrating their whole mind, intent on listening to the Dhamma. Then, on realizing its significance, the Blessed One on that occasion uttered this inspired utterance: "There is, monks, that base where there is neither earth, nor water, nor heat, nor air; neither the base of the infinity of space, nor the base of the infinity of consciousness, nor the base of nothingness, nor the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception; neither this world nor another world; neither sun nor moon. Here, monks, I say there is no coming, no going, no standing still; no passing away and no being reborn. It is not established, not moving, without support. Just this is the end of suffering." (Ud 8:1;80) (4) The Unborn Thus have I heard. At one time the Blessed One was dwelling at Saavatthii in Jeta's Grove, Anaathapi.n.dika's Park. Now on that occasion the Blessed One was instructing...the monks with a Dhamma talk connected with Nibbaana, and those monks were receptive... intent on listening to the Dhamma. Then, on realizing its significance, the Blessed One on that occasion uttered this inspired utterance: "There is, monks, an unborn, unbecome, unmade, unconditioned. If, monks, there were no unborn, unbecome, unmade, unconditioned, no escape would be discerned from what is born, become, made, conditioned. But because there is an unborn, unbecome, unmade, unconditioned, therefore an escape is discerned from what is born, become, made, conditioned." (Ud 8:3; 80-81) (5) The Two Nibbaana Elements "There are, monks, these two Nibbaana elements. What are the two? The Nibbaana element with residue remaining and the Nibbaana element without residue remaining. "And what, monks, is the Nibbaana element with residue remaining? Here, a monk is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, who has lived the holy life, done what had to be done, aid down the burden, reached his own goal, utterly destroyed the fetters of existence, one completely liberated through final knowledge. However, his five sense faculties remain unimpaired, by which he still experiences what is agreeable and disagreeable, still feels pleasure and pain. It is the destruction of lust, hatred, and delusion in him that is called the Nibbaana element with residue remaining. "And what, monks, is the Nibbaana element without residue remaining? Here, a monk is an arahant, ...one completely liberated through final knowledge. For him, here in this very life, all that is felt, not being delighted in, will become cool right here. That, monks, is called the Nibbaana element without residue remaining. "These, monks, are the two Nibbaana elements." (It 44;38) (6) The Fire and the Ocean 15. [The wanderer Vacchagotta asked the Blessed One:] "Then does Master Gotama hold any speculative view at all?" "Vaccha, 'speculative view' is something that the Tathaagata has put away. For the Tathaagata, Vaccha, has seen this: 'Such is form, such its origin, such its passing away; such is feeling, such its origin, such its passing away; such is perception, such its origin, such its passing away; such are volitional formations, such their origin, such their passing away; such is consciousness, such its origin, such its passing away; Therefore, I say, with the destruction, fading away, cessation, giving up, and relinquishing of all conceiving, all rumination, all I-making, mine-making, and the underlying tendency to conceit, the Tathaagata is liberated through not clinging. 16. "When a monk's mind is liberated thus, Master Gotama, where is he reborn [after death]?" "'Is reborn' does not apply, Vaccha." "Then he is not reborn, Master Gotama?" "'Is not reborn' does not apply, Vaccha." "Then he both is reborn and is not reborn, Master Gotama?" "'Both is reborn and is not reborn' does not apply, Vaccha." "Then he neither is reborn nor is not reborn, Master Gotama?' "'Neither is reborn nor is not reborn' does not apply, Vaccha. 17. "When Master Gotama is asked these four questions, he replies: "'Is reborn" does not apply, Vaccha; "is not reborn" does not apply, Vaccha; "both is reborn and is not reborn" does not apply, Vaccha; "neither is reborn nor is not reborn: does not apply Vaccha.' Here I have fallen into bewilderment, Master Gotama, here I have fallen into confusion, and the measure of confidence I had gained through previous conversation with Master Gotama has now disappeared." 18. "It is enough to cause you bewilderment, Vaccha, enough to cause you confusion. For the Dhamma, Vaccha, is profound, hard to see and hard to understand, peaceful and sublime, unattainable by mere reasoning, subtle, to be experienced by the wise, It is hard for you to understand it when you hold another view, accept another teaching, approve of another teaching, pursue a different training, and follow a different teacher. So I shall question you about this in return, Vaccha. Answer as you choose. 19. "What do you think, Vaccha? Suppose a fire were burning b before you. Would you know: "This fire is burning before me?" "I would, Master Gotama." If someone were to ask you, Vaccha: 'What does this fire burning before you burn in dependence on?' - being asked thus, what would you answer? "Being asked thus, Master Gotama, I would answer: 'This fire burning before me burns in dependence on grass and sticks.'" "If that fire before you were extinguished, would you know; 'This fire before me has been extinguished'?" "I would, Master Gotama." "If someone were to ask you, Vaccha: 'When that fire before you was extinguished, to which direction did it go: to the east, the west, the north, or the south?' - being asked thus, what would you answer?" "That does not apply, Master Gotama. The fire burned in dependence on its fuel of grass and sticks. When that is used up, if it does not get any more fuel, being without fuel, it is reckoned as extinguished." 20. "So too, Vaccha, the Tathaagata has abandoned that form by which one describing the Tathaagata might describe him; he has cut it off at the root, made it like a palm stump, done away with it so that it is no longer subject to future arising. Liberated from reckoning in terms of form, the Tathaagatga is deep, immeasurable, hard to fathom like the ocean. 'Is reborn' does not apply; 'Is not reborn' does not apply; 'both is reborn and is not reborn; does not apply; 'neither is reborn nor is not reborn' does not apply. The Tathaagata has abandoned that feeling by which one describing the Tathaagata might describe him... has abandoned that perception by which one describing the Tathaagata might describe him...has abandoned those volitional formations by which one describing the Tathaagata might describe him...has abandoned that consciousness by which one describing the Tathaagata might describe him; he has cut it off at the root, made it like a palm stump, done away with it so that it is no longer subject to future arising. Liberated from reckoning in terms of consciousness, the Tathaagata is deep, immeasurable, hard to fathom like the ocean. 'Is reborn' does not apply; 'is not reborn' does not apply; 'both is reborn and is not reborn' does not apply; 'neither is reborn nor is not reborn' does not apply". (from MN 72: Aggivacchagotta Sutta; I 386-88) metta Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time' #68735 From: han tun Date: Thu Feb 22, 2007 2:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Daana Corner (04) hantun1 Dear Herman, Thank you very much for your kind comments. Text: Like all good deeds, an act of giving will bring us happiness in the future, in accordance with the kammic law of cause and effect taught by the Buddha. Giving yields benefits in the present life and in lives to come whether or not we are aware of this fact, but when the volition is accompanied by understanding, we can greatly increase the merits earned by our gifts. Herman: This sounds like dana is actually an investment fund, a superannuation fund. And the recipient upon maturity? SELF. Han: Yes, daana is a kind of investment during our passage in samsara. In Burma, we used to say not to embark on long travel without food, and not to travel on samsara without daana. -------------------- Text: The amount of merit gained varies according to three factors: the quality of the donor's motive, the spiritual purity of the recipient, and the kind and size of the gift. Since we have to experience the results of our actions, and good deeds lead to good results and bad deeds to bad results, it is sensible to try to create as much good kamma as possible. In the practice of giving, this would mean keeping one's mind pure in the act of giving, selecting the worthiest recipients available, and choosing the most appropriate and generous gifts one can afford. Herman: Christians have this idea too. 1 Timothy 6:19. "By doing this they store up a treasure for themselves which is a good foundation for the future, that they may lay hold on the life which is life indeed". The giving of material gifts is the giving of that which is scarce and therefore subject to attachment, and that which is subject to decay. And before you can give it, you must have it. Who in their right mind would recommend giving such gifts? And who in their right mind would receive such gifts? Han: What is more precious than your own body-parts. Yet, there are people who in their right mind donate one of their two kidneys while they are still alive and which are still useful for them, and there are people in their right mind who receive them. Respectfully, Han --- Herman Hofman wrote: > Hi Han, > > The economics of dana are fascinating. > #68736 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Thu Feb 22, 2007 3:25 am Subject: [dsg] Computer programming /was Re: Acceptance speech ken_aitch Hi Howard, --------------- H: > Being fixated on paramattha dhammas cuts one off from important aspects of the Dhamma, Ken. ---------------- What parts, or aspects, of the Dhamma are not about paramattha dhammas? None that I can think of! Returning to the beginning of your post: -------------- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Ken (and Herman) - > > In a message dated 2/20/07 10:43:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, > ken_aitch@... writes: > > > A medical diagnosis is not a paramattha dhamma. Therefore, it has no > > inherent paramattha characteristics. For example, it is neither > > kusala nor akusala. > > > -------------------------------------- > Howard: > You might take that up with the Buddha who, in the Sammaditthi Sutta, wrote the following: > _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ > > Killing living beings is unwholesome; taking what is not given is > unwholesome; misconduct in sensual pleasures is unwholesome; false speech is unwholesome; > malicious speech is unwholesome; harsh speech is unwholesome; gossip is > unwholesome; covetousness is unwholesome; ill will is unwholesome; wrong view is > unwholesome. This is called the unwholesome. > > & > > And what is the wholesome? Abstention from killing living beings is > wholesome; abstention from taking what is not given is wholesome; abstention from > misconduct in sensual pleasures is wholesome; abstention from false speech is > wholesome; abstention from malicious speech is wholesome; abstention from harsh > speech is wholesome; abstention from gossip is wholesome; non- covetousness is > wholesome; non-ill will is wholesome; right view is wholesome. This is called the > wholesome. > _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ KH: I don't wish to sound too sarcastic, but who doesn't already know those things? The Buddha's teaching introduces us to the world of conditioned dhammas. Conditioned dhammas are things that you and I have no direct knowledge of and no indirect knowledge of except for what we have already learnt from the Dhamma. As part of our education, we need a description of unwholesome conditioned dhammas, and of wholesome conditioned dhammas. And that is what this sutta is trying to give us. Certainly, it uses conventional terminology, but that does not mean it teaches conventional reality. We have no direct knowledge of dhammas, and so how else should they be described other than by likening them to something we already do know (or think we know)? Really, Howard, if the quote you have given was not a description of paramattha dhammas, what was it? Did it contain anything that 99.99 per cent listeners would not have already known? Ken H #68737 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Feb 22, 2007 1:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Acceptance speech sarahprocter... Dear Jiw, --- Trasvin wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > No surprise about Than Achan's reaction regarding > anything personal. I tried it once when working > on a book about her (and tried my best not to > have her in the book!) .... S: That must have been quite a challenge. Has this book been translated into English btw? I think it's also good to stick to the Dhamma when possible, even though people may have a lot of curiosity and interest to hear the personal stories. We hadn't asked at the outset, but knew she'd just wish to talk about the Dhamma as usual - knowing it would be most useful for her audience! (For anyone who is interested, I remember there is a section with a lot of personal detail (taken her talks in Cambodia) in 'Taking Refuge in Buddhism' on-line.) It's been a delight to see your interest and to hear from you, Jiw. I heard you had lovely discussions in Chengmai (northern Thailand) recently, including at your home there. What Dhamma publishing projects are you working on these days? Metta, Sarah ======== #68743 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Feb 22, 2007 11:36 am Subject: Rupas, preface, 3. nilovg Dear friends, Right understanding, the leading factor of the eightfold Path, is developed through direct awareness of nåma and rúpa. However, this is difficult and it can only be learnt very gradually. When there is direct awareness of one object at a time as it appears through one of the senses or through the mind-door, there is no thinking of a concept of a “whole” at that moment. The study of rúpas can help us to have more understanding of the sense objects and of the doorways of the senses through which these objects are experienced. If we do not have a foundation knowledge of objects and doorways we cannot know how to be aware of one reality at a time as it appears at the present moment. The study of nåma and rúpa is a condition for the arising of direct awareness later on. The study of rúpas is not the study of physics or medical science. The aim of the understanding of nåma and rúpa is the eradication of the wrong view of self and freedom from enslavement to defilements. So long as one clings to an idea of self who owns things, it can give rise to avarice and jealousy which may even motivate bad deeds such as stealing or killing. Defilements cannot be eradicated immediately, but when we begin to understand that our life is only one moment of experiencing an object through one of the six doorways, there will be less clinging to the idea of an abiding ego, of a person or self. All three parts of the Buddha’s teachings, namely the Vinaya (Book of Discipline for the monks), the Suttanta (Discourses) and the Abhidhamma point to the same goal: the eradication of defilements. From my quotations of sutta texts the reader can see that there is also Abhidhamma in the suttas, thus, that the teachings are one, the teaching of the Buddha. The first of the seven books of the Abhidhamma, the “Dhammasangani”, translated as “Buddhist Psychological Ethics”, is a compilation of all nåma and rúpa, of all that is real. The source for my book on physical phenomena is that part of the “Dhammasangaùi” which deals with this subject, as well as the commentary to this book, the “Atthasåliní”, translated as “Expositor” , written by the venerable Buddhaghosa. I also used the “Visuddhimagga”, translated as “The Path of Purification”, an encyclopedia by the venerable Buddhaghosa. . May this book on rúpas help the reader to develop right understanding of nåma and rúpa! ***** Nina. #68744 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Feb 22, 2007 11:39 am Subject: Letters on Vipassana 8, no 5. nilovg Dear friends, We may be inclined to blame someone else, we may want to tell him off. However, when sati-sampajañña arises we shall investigate our own cittas and then we shall be less inclined to blame someone else. We read in the "Gradual Sayings" (Book of the Tens, Ch V, par. 4, At Kusinåra) that the Buddha, while he was staying at Kusinåra, said that a monk who desires to admonish another monk should do so after investigation of five conditions in himself and setting up five conditions in himself. We read that he should investigate whether he practises utter purity in body and speech, whether he has mettå established towards his fellow monks and is free from malice. If not, people around him will say that he should practise these things himself. We then read: Then again, monks, a monk who desires to admonish another should thus investigate: Am I or am I not one who has heard much, who bears in mind what he has heard, who hoards up what he has heard? Those teachings which, lovely alike at the beginning, the middle and the end, proclaim in the spirit and in the letter the all-fulfilled, utterly purified Brahma-life, have such teachings been much heard by me, borne in mind, practised in speech, pondered in the heart and rightly penetrated by view? Is this quality manifest in me or is it not? Then, monks, if he be not one who has heard much... if those teachings have not been rightly penetrated by view, then folk are found to say to him: "Come now, let your reverence complete knowledge of the Sayings." Folk are found to speak thus. We then read that the monk who desires to admonish another monk should investigate whether he is well-trained in the discipline. After that we read about five conditions which he has to set up in himself: (He considers:) Do I speak in season or not? Do I speak of facts or not, gently or harshly, do I speak words fraught with profit or not, with a kindly heart or inwardly malicious? These five conditions he must set up in his own self. We can apply this sutta in daily life. When there is sati-sampajañña it can be realized whether these conditions are fulfilled or not. It is very difficult to fulfill them, and when we see that, we may rather refrain from admonishing someone else. When we really consider this sutta it can condition the development of sati-sampajañña which knows the disadvantage of akusala and the benefit of kusala. Then kusala citta can arise because it becomes one's nature. There is no need to impose rules upon oneself or to go to particular places in order to induce kusala. ******** Nina. #68745 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Feb 22, 2007 11:59 am Subject: daana corner nilovg Dear Han, thank you for all your efforts. It helps us to reflect on the real motives of giving. Susan's article is not yet finished, but something strikes me: I prefer Kh Sujin's approach not to think of any reward for oneself, to be generous in order to have less defilements. I quote from her perfections: Susan: N:Let us give to whoever we can assist and not select any persons in order to have more merit. Nina. #68746 From: Trasvin Date: Thu Feb 22, 2007 7:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Acceptance speech trasvin Dear Sarah, > > No surprise about Than Achan's reaction > regarding > > anything personal. I tried it once when > working > > on a book about her (and tried my best not to > > have her in the book!) > .... > S: That must have been quite a challenge. Has > this book been translated > into English btw? >.... J: The book was a master degree thesis, in Thai, by a monk. The study was on Than Achan's role in teaching Dhamma. When I was assigned to do it, it was already edited. It has not been translated and perhaps not worth doing. Thai book has a difference logic from English. > I think it's also good to stick to the Dhamma > when possible, even though > people may have a lot of curiosity and interest > to hear the personal > stories. We hadn't asked at the outset, but > knew she'd just wish to talk > about the Dhamma as usual - knowing it would be > most useful for her > audience! > ... J: By all means, I totally agree. However, there are levels of understanding. A different audience needs a different content, depends on time, space, and circumstance. > (For anyone who is interested, I remember there > is a section with a lot of > personal detail (taken her talks in Cambodia) > in 'Taking Refuge in > Buddhism' on-line.) > > It's been a delight to see your interest and to > hear from you, Jiw. I > heard you had lovely discussions in Chengmai > (northern Thailand) recently, > including at your home there. > > What Dhamma publishing projects are you working > on these days? ....... J: For the Foundation, I am planning to work on Nina's translation of "Perfections” and “The Buddha's Path”; and whatever the Foundation assigns to me. For my firm, I am reissuing BPS Buddhist Dictionary and will do a book on an introduction to the Abhidhamma by Frits Koster. I also did a few on history of Buddhism in Southeast Asia. Working with books is fine but it makes attasañña stronger...:-( Warmest wishes, Jiw #68747 From: Trasvin Date: Thu Feb 22, 2007 6:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Outstanding Women Acceptance Speech -draft 4 (Final????) trasvin Dear Sarah, Well, drafting a speech is also anatta. I like draft #4 than draft #3. Best, Jiw --- sarah abbott wrote: > All, possibly the Final, but comments/suggested > amendments still welcome! > ======================= <....> #68748 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Thu Feb 22, 2007 1:58 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Persons egberdina Hi Scott, Thank you yet again. On 23/02/07, Scott Duncan wrote: > Hi Herman, > > Thanks for the reply: > > H: "If you are saying that intentional consciousness cannot be > determined by things external to it, then I agree." > > I'm not sure if we have a consensus on the meaning of 'intentional > consciousness' and so need a clarification. The term suggests cetanaa > cetasika, which is a feature in every moment of consciousness, as I > understand it. The rest of the statement relates, it would seem, to > conditionality. > References to cetasikas and their relation to cittas is may well cause problems with consensus. Because these are components of a theory of mind which I don't subscribe to. But seeing as we both speak excellent Canadian, I think this discussion has every chance of progessing to a place where we both understand each other very well. By referring to intentional consciousness, I meant that all consciousness is consciousness of something (objects), and that these objects are selected by consciousness, not determined by outside factors. In the same room, you will look at the vase, and I will look at your shoes, for example. > H: "As to what arises in individual streams, I would say that > individual streams flow in a shared world. So individual streams have > much in common, and this is the basis for communication." > > The 'shared world' noted above might refer to the kaama-loka - this > world of five senses. I suppose 'we' do have much in common existing > in this world in this form at this time. I'd say 'we' have five > senses in common. But do 'we' experience the 'world' in the same way? > I'd say not; what might this mean? When we get to have our coffee together in Edmonton, we will be in situation together. We will be in a shared world. We won't experience this in an identical manner, but how could we? Though we have similar anatomical features, on closer inspection the appearance of similarity is only skin deep. Our brains, which mediate all our experience, are wired up quite differently, given different proclivities and experience, and so all that will be experienced will be experienced quite differently. > > The conformation of a given 'stream of consciousness', that is its > accumulations, will give a unique caste to experience shared by no > other 'stream'. The intricate weave of conditionality inherent to one > 'stream of consciousness' and shared by no other, will give to each > moment of the 'shared world' such a magnitude of difference that I'd > say 'shared' might be a term that is greatly qualified. Can you say > more of your sense of 'shared world'? > It depends on the depth of analysis you want to go before I see a real problem here. I accept that on ever closer inspection all the boundaries we perceive to be delineating the world of these and those objects, vanish. But it seems uncontroversial to me that we can all go outside and point to the Sun, and that it is the same Sun for everyone who points to it. > And communication, this is a complicated thing isn't it? I'd like to > discuss what this whole 'communication' thing actually is in more detail. > Awww, c'mon Scott, there is a difference between the act and an attempt to explain the act. If you do not think we are communicating now, then we will not be able to ever comunicate. Again, I accept that with ever refined analysis we will arrive at an absence of anything concrete to point to. But we are not now in such a state. BTW, I notice that you and I use words that are identical. How could a word that I use, after having seen you use it, all of a sudden become a thing to doubt for you? > H: "But the shared world is devoid of meaning, and it is the nature of > streams to intend the world to be this way or that. My intentions > towards the world can certainly cause the shared world to be different > than it otherwise would be, both for myself and others. But I cannot > intend the intentions of another stream, much to my dismay. In short, > me cutting of your arms with a blunt saw does not force/necessitate an > angry response, or any other response, on your behalf. And with > regards to fruition consciousness, that is freely available. Just ask > any pacceka-buddha. :-)" > > Here, I think, I see the marks of Sartre. Please elaborate the > meaning of 'the shared world is devoid of meaning'. We both see and use the same words. It is their meaning that may differ from user to user. There is nothing in the world that dictates what the meaning or purpose of objects is. We make meaning by acting in the world. And we act according to how we want the world to be, what we want it to mean. I think that the > existentialist view, of course given my limited understanding of > Sartre, is essentially annihilationist, seeming to refer to a one-life > (one really hard life) time-frame. This is not necessarily to discuss > the views but to give you a sense on where I'm coming from. On the > other hand, might you be suggesting that the 'shared world' also has a > strong conceptual aspect? > It is immaterial to the world whether it is experienced or not. The Earth will revolve around the Sun regardless of whether this is known, or whether it is conceived of as the Sun revolving around the Earth. Consciousness, however, has come into this world. And how it will conceive of this world is dependent on the intentionality behind such conceiving. So yes, perceiving and conceiving of the world are realities, and are to be distinguished from the being of that world, which is not conceptual. > I'd say, in an ultimate sense - which is to me a relevant aspect of > 'the world' - that what you might think of as 'your intentions' are, > in fact, not 'yours' since there is no 'you'. 'Intentions' they > remain, however. For sure, were you to cut off my arms with a blunt > saw, there would be all sorts of realities (of an intenesely painful > nature) arising and falling away. For me though, I think this would > merely be vipaaka first and foremost, and, as such, the 'event' would > reside squarely within 'my own stream'. No need to get into probing for atta views. Of course it is not my intentions or your intentions. But it is intentionality to be you and me. And the intentionality of which we speak is certainly mediated by our bodies that are in situation together. How else can I cut your arms off? As for the event residing within your own stream, I would suggest that conceiving of a rigid "individual" consciousness tends towards solipsism. I reject the notion of "individual" consciousness. Just like language and money, consciousness is a shared phenomenon. In isolation, it atrophies. Which is why seclusion is fundamental to the aims of Buddhism. > > 'You' and 'your saw' and 'my pain' would be serving as condition and > 'my' reaction' would be in accord with those conditions and these > would relate only to 'my stream'. 'Your' acts would be arising and > accumulating within 'your own stream'. One doesn't know what a given > moment can condition until it happens. I may have accumulations of > such a conformation that the cutting off of my arms could condition > kusala or even path consciousness. This is not known in advance but > can be known. There are many examples from the past lives of the > Buddha of certain reactions to such painful events. > There is this curious thing that happens in people's life. A man and a woman will engage in what seems a series of absurd movements, and nine months later another being joins the group, physically first and consciously later. Much, much later, this embodied consciousness, which wasn't manifest before, again ceases to be manifest. The number of theories to explain and account for how this could all be are many and varied. :-) Kind Regards Herman #68749 From: "m. nease" Date: Thu Feb 22, 2007 2:00 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Acceptance speech m_nease Hi Khun Jiw, I hope you don't mind a question, if you don't have the time please don't bother to reply. You wrote, "Working with books is fine but it makes attasañña stronger...:-(" Is attasañña synonymous with attadi.t.thi? If not, how are they different and can one be present without the other? Thanks in advance. mike #68750 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Feb 22, 2007 2:05 pm Subject: Re: Outstanding Women Acceptance Speech -draft 4 (Final????) buddhatrue Hi Sarah and Jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: If explaining Buddhism, it would be prudent to mention the Four Noble Truths and the Noble Eightfold Path. They are the reason and the practice of Buddhism and you don't mention them. Metta, James #68751 From: han tun Date: Thu Feb 22, 2007 2:19 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] daana corner hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much for your kind contribution. Your quote from Kh Sujin's treatise on Perfections is wonderful! I like the last sentence very much: “If someone gives away things without expecting a reward, not even rebirth in a heavenly plane, then his generosity can be a perfection.” In Burma (must be also in Thailand and Sri Lanka and elsewhere) we used to say “Nibbaana paccayo hotu” whenever we give. Let this giving be a condition for the achievement of Nibbaana (and nothing else, no other rewards.) As regards the recipients, it is a very wide subject, the main consideration being to give to the worthiest recipients or to give to the most needed persons or, as you said, to whoever we can assist and not to select any persons in order to have more merit. In MN 142 Dakkhinavibhanga sutta (The Exposition of Offerings) the Buddha mentioned fourteen kinds of persons to give offerings and their subsequent merits. The sutta is too long for me to type it out and I do not have electronic version. The various authors who contributed to the present document also touched upon this subject in their own ways, which we will see as we proceed. Respectfully, Han --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Han, > thank you for all your efforts. It helps us to > reflect on the real > motives of giving. #68752 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Thu Feb 22, 2007 2:31 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Daana Corner (04) egberdina Hi Han, Thank you for your futher comments. > > Han: Yes, daana is a kind of investment during our > passage in samsara. In Burma, we used to say not to > embark on long travel without food, and not to travel > on samsara without daana. > It seems to me that teachings that promote dana of the material kind promote samsara, and are therefore diametrically opposed to teachings that promote an end to the round of rebirths. >Han: What is more precious than your own body-parts. >Yet, there are people who in their right mind donate >one of their two kidneys while they are still alive >and which are still useful for them, and there are >people in their right mind who receive them. I doubt very much that the Buddha would portray the pursuit of and attachment to life as being rightmindedness. From Udana 2:8 And Suppavâsa said to herself; "My son is conversing with the 'Captain of the Faith' (Saripuuta)." And she rejoiced exceedingly and became enraptured and was filled with joy. And the Blessed One said to Suppavâsa, the daughter of Koliya; "Suppavâsa, would you have another son such as this one?" "I would have, Blessed One, seven other sons such as this one." And the Blessed One, in this connection, on that occasion, breathed forth this solemn utterance:-- "Joylessness in the guise of joy, delight in the guise of misery, Pain in the guise of happiness, take possession of the thoughtless". Kind Regards Herman #68753 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Feb 22, 2007 9:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Persons upasaka_howard Hi, Herman (and Scott) - Herman, I'm going to comment on a minor part of your post, because it struck me as possibly not quite the way I see matters, though maybe it is. I'm not sure. I'd like to give my own pseudo-abhidhammic analysis. In a message dated 2/22/07 4:59:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, hhofmeister@... writes: > By referring to intentional consciousness, I meant that all > consciousness is consciousness of something (objects), and that these > objects are selected by consciousness, not determined by outside > factors. In the same room, you will look at the vase, and I will look > at your shoes, for example. > --------------------------------------- Howard: You are dealing with conventional objects here. The vase and the shoes are conceptual constructs. What I think may be happening is something along the following lines: A series of visual rupas arise in your mindstream, and a very similar series arises in Scott's - you two are "in the same room" because of related kamma. Complex processes of sa~n~na and sankharic fabricatings work on these visual rupas - or, probably, on memories of them, creating a conceptual complex - a matrix of aggregates of mind-door objects that is "the room". [I don't care here whether these objects are simultaneous, or sequential and cyclically repeated.] This happens in your mindstream and it also happens in Scott's. Your scene analyses, your's and Scott's, are probably quite similar, and each probably includes "the vase" and "the shoes". But for you "the shoes" are highlighted (by attention and interest), and for Scott "the vase" is, and this may be so much the case that for you the vase doesn't "register" and for Scott "the shoes" do not. What do you think, guys? Anyone else? ========================== With metta, Howard #68754 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Feb 22, 2007 9:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Daana Corner (04) upasaka_howard Hi, Herman (and Han) - In a message dated 2/22/07 5:40:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, hhofmeister@... writes: > Hi Han, > > Thank you for your futher comments. > > > > >Han: Yes, daana is a kind of investment during our > >passage in samsara. In Burma, we used to say not to > >embark on long travel without food, and not to travel > >on samsara without daana. > > > > It seems to me that teachings that promote dana of the material kind > promote samsara, and are therefore diametrically opposed to teachings > that promote an end to the round of rebirths. > > >Han: What is more precious than your own body-parts. > >Yet, there are people who in their right mind donate > >one of their two kidneys while they are still alive > >and which are still useful for them, and there are > >people in their right mind who receive them. > > > I doubt very much that the Buddha would portray the pursuit of and > attachment to life as being rightmindedness. > > From Udana 2:8 > > And Suppavâsa said to herself; "My son is conversing with the > 'Captain of the Faith' (Saripuuta)." And she rejoiced exceedingly and > became enraptured and was filled with joy. And the Blessed One said to > Suppavâsa, the daughter of Koliya; "Suppavâsa, would you have another > son such as this one?" > > "I would have, Blessed One, seven other sons such as this one." > > And the Blessed One, in this connection, on that occasion, breathed > forth this solemn utterance:-- > "Joylessness in the guise of joy, delight in the guise of misery, > Pain in the guise of happiness, take possession of the thoughtless". > > > Kind Regards > > > Herman > ========================== I seem to recall a case of the Buddha giving tender care to an ill monk, providing physical comfort and nourishment, which would certainly constitute material dana. Thus this ring a bell, anyone? With metta, Howard #68755 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Thu Feb 22, 2007 3:13 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Persons egberdina Hi Howard and all, I do hope that others chip in as well. > --------------------------------------- > Howard: > You are dealing with conventional objects here. The vase and the shoes > are conceptual constructs. What I think may be happening is something along > the following lines: A series of visual rupas arise in your mindstream, and a > very similar series arises in Scott's - you two are "in the same room" because > of related kamma. Complex processes of sa~n~na and sankharic fabricatings work > on these visual rupas - or, probably, on memories of them, creating a > conceptual complex - a matrix of aggregates of mind-door objects that is "the room". > [I don't care here whether these objects are simultaneous, or sequential and > cyclically repeated.] This happens in your mindstream and it also happens in > Scott's. Your scene analyses, your's and Scott's, are probably quite similar, > and each probably includes "the vase" and "the shoes". But for you "the shoes" > are highlighted (by attention and interest), and for Scott "the vase" is, and > this may be so much the case that for you the vase doesn't "register" and for > Scott "the shoes" do not. What do you think, guys? Anyone else? > ========================== I agree with this. In any field of consciousness, which is always complex, there is foreground and background. It is attention and interest, guided by intention, that determine what is foreground. And Scott and I can communicate with each other so that we can "draw" each other's attention, so that the shoes and the vase become foreground when previously they weren't. And in so communicating, our intentions are made known, and can become shared. Kind Regards Herman #68756 From: "Larry" Date: Thu Feb 22, 2007 4:54 pm Subject: Re: Where does Anger start from? lbidd2 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kanchaa" wrote: > > Dear All, > > Hello! > > I was curious today about Anger.... Can anyone explain where does > anger start and where does it end?? What is its role in a life? > > I would be very thankful.. > > Sincerely, > > Nitesh > Hi Nitesh, The Abhidhammattha Sangaha has this to say: AS, p.84: "Dosa, the second unwholesome root, comprises all kinds and degrees of aversion, ill will, anger, irritation, annoyance, and animosity. Its characteristic is ferocity. Its function is to spread, or to burn up its own support, i.e., the mind and body in which it arises. It is manifested as persecuting, and its proximate cause is a ground for annoyance." Digha Nikaya 33, 3.2: "Malice is stirred up by the thought: (a) "He has done me an injury", (b) "He is doing me an injury", (c) "He will do me an injury", (d) -- (f) "He has done, is doing, will do an injury to someone who is dear and pleasant to me", (g) -- (i) "He has done, is doing, will do a favour to someone who is hateful and unpleasant to me." "Nine ways of overcoming malice: Malice is overcome by the thought: (a) -- (i) "He has done me an injury, etc. ... What good would it do [to harbour malice]?" L: This last line is essential. What good does anger do? Anger often arises out of habit but sati can remember that anger is unnecessary. Once that is remembered anger can be released and it ends. Larry #68757 From: TGrand458@... Date: Thu Feb 22, 2007 12:41 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A Question to Ask TGrand458@... Hi Howard Since this I believe this post was prompted by our prior discussion I'll take a swipe at it. In a message dated 2/22/2007 12:40:58 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, upasaka@... writes: Hi, all - It has occurred to me that it might be instructive to ask materalists what is their understanding of the state of death, and, to recall what was your own understanding of it when you were a materialist, if you ever were. I believe that the answer in both cases would be "a state of nothingness with no experience of anything whatsoever in any sense occuring - a complete and utter nothing". TG: I'm not sure what you mean by materialists. (Sounds condescending.) I think you would for the moment put me in that camp? At any rate, I don't have an opinion about "material." I do not consider myself a "materialist" as I don't even believe in "matter per se." I do believe in energy, in the sense of movement, and I believe in delusion and consciousness/awareness. In my mind that would make me closer to a "spiritualist/energist" as long as "spirit" does not include self. Perhaps "conditiontionalist" would better suit me. All of these labels are pretty meaningless to me. It then occurs to me to be instructive to consider the final nibbana of those Buddhists who take it to be an absolute lack of any and all experience in every possible sense, and to compare that with the perspective on death discussed above. I find them to be one and the same. If no difference can be pointed out to me, then I find myself having to see such a nibbana as no different from death, to see taking such a nibbana as a goal as suicidal - as one of the three cravings: the craving for nonbecoming (abhaava), and to see such a Buddhism as what some accuse the Dhamma lf itself as being, a species of nihilism. TG: From a Buddhist point of view, suicide (based on a view of self), only continues a system of suffering. (Although one monk in the Suttas commits suicide and is an arahat so that "system/individual" does not continue.) It is only individuals who believe in a "self being destroyed/annihilated" that the term nihilism applies to. However, if life is mere conditions, what is there to be "ended" other than conditions arising and ceasing...which is what they are doing anyway. "All I teach is suffering, and the end of suffering." This from the Buddha again shows that it is suffering that ends. Next -- The first Noble Truth -- "This is suffering." What is suffering? It is a system as represented by the 12 fold chain. The Buddha teaches to END THIS SYSTEM. When that system has ended, there is no more suffering. Suicide has nothing to do with ending such a system. Most suicidal individuals would be suffering from an acute sense-of-self and would be strongly bound to continuing the 12 fold cycle. Nibbana mean extinction or extinguish in the sense of "put out." The system/human who attains arahatship attains Nibbana (mental suffering is put out) and when death comes -- that whole system is "put out" (parinibbana), and does not arise again somewhere else according to the Suttas. I have provided quotes showing that such involves the ending of perception and feeling and consciousness...and all experiences. These quotes are from the Suttas, not my own ramblings. I believe that if all sense-of-self is eradicated, there's nothing disquieting about this. I think folks not comfortable with the idea of -- not experiencing in the future -- are still clinging to the self. Some little self in there wants to survive. :-) The real/main issue is to focus on suffering and overcoming it. Then let the chips fall where they may after that. However, I do believe that a pronounced view that there is experience after parinibbana will probably prevent that individual from attaining nibbana. (If that were my only attachment I'd be lucky!) LOL With metta, Howard TG #68758 From: han tun Date: Thu Feb 22, 2007 5:51 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Daana Corner (04) hantun1 Dear Herman (and Nina), Thank you very much for your additional comments. > > Han: Yes, daana is a kind of investment during our passage in samsara. In Burma, we used to say not to embark on long travel without food, and not to travel on samsara without daana. > Herman: It seems to me that teachings that promote dana of the material kind promote samsara, and are therefore diametrically opposed to teachings that promote an end to the round of rebirths. Han: Yes you are correct. Here, I would like to repeat Nina’s quote from Khun Sujin treatise on Perfections: I have responded to it by saying, “In Burma (must be also in Thailand and Sri Lanka and elsewhere) we used to say “Nibbaana paccayo hotu” whenever we give. Let this giving be a condition for the achievement of Nibbaana (and nothing else, no other rewards.) ------------------------------ > > > Herman: The giving of material gifts is the giving of that which is scarce and therefore subject to attachment, and that which is subject to decay. And before you can give it, you must have it. Who in their right mind would recommend giving such gifts? And who in their right mind would receive such gifts? > >Han: What is more precious than your own body-parts. Yet, there are people who in their right mind donate one of their two kidneys while they are still alive and which are still useful for them, and there are people in their right mind who receive them. > Herman: I doubt very much that the Buddha would portray the pursuit of and attachment to life as being rightmindedness. From Udana 2:8 And Suppavâsa said to herself; "My son is conversing with the 'Captain of the Faith' (Saripuuta). " And she rejoiced exceedingly and became enraptured and was filled with joy. And the Blessed One said to Suppavâsa, the daughter of Koliya; "Suppavâsa, would you have another son such as this one?" "I would have, Blessed One, seven other sons such as this one." And the Blessed One, in this connection, on that occasion, breathed forth this solemn utterance:-- "Joylessness in the guise of joy, delight in the guise of misery, Pain in the guise of happiness, take possession of the thoughtless" . Han: I am sorry if I gave you the impression that my answer to your question suggests the pursuance of and attachment to life. Anyway, I cannot agree more with your above comments. Respectfully, Han --- Herman Hofman wrote: > Hi Han, > > Thank you for your futher comments. > > > > > Han: Yes, daana is a kind of investment during our > > passage in samsara. In Burma, we used to say not > to > > embark on long travel without food, and not to > travel > > on samsara without daana. > > #68759 From: "Larry" Date: Thu Feb 22, 2007 6:03 pm Subject: Re: A Question to Ask lbidd2 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, all - > > It has occurred to me that it might be instructive to ask materialists > what is their understanding of the state of death, and, to recall what was > your own understanding of it when you were a materialist, if you ever were. I > believe that the answer in both cases would be "a state of nothingness with no > experience of anything whatsoever in any sense occurring - a complete and utter > nothing". > It then occurs to me to be instructive to consider the final nibbana > of those Buddhists who take it to be an absolute lack of any and all experience > in every possible sense, and to compare that with the perspective on death > discussed above. I find them to be one and the same. If no difference can be > pointed out to me, then I find myself having to see such a nibbana as no > different from death, to see taking such a nibbana as a goal as suicidal - as one of > the three cravings: the craving for nonbecoming (abhaava), and to see such a > Buddhism as what some accuse the Dhamma lf itself as being, a species of > nihilism. > > With metta, > Howard Hi Howard, There is a sutta which somewhat addresses this issue. Maybe someone knows which one it is; I don't. A group of bhikkhus decided the most expedient way to nibbana would be to simply die and someone offered to kill them. Then the Buddha said no no, that's not the way. Or something like that. Larry #68760 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Thu Feb 22, 2007 6:08 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Some Thoughts on the Sectarians Sutta (AN 3.61) ken_aitch Hi Sarah, --------- <. . .> KH: > > Sorry if I have shocked you with this confession. :-) I am still in a > state of shock myself! .... S: S: I think that anything concerned with the intricacies kamma and kamma-patha is tricky - so nothing anyone would say along these lines would shock me! --------- You might remember my being under the impression that every possible kind of wrong view could be classified as either eternalism or annihilationism. I heard on one of the recordings where you asked K Sujin about it for me. As I remember, the answer was more to do with seeing and hearing now :-) but it was also made clear (I suspect) that my theory (impression) was wrong. In any case, I soon forgot what I had heard and went on thinking it was correct. Now that I have finally listened, new theories are emerging! :-) I wonder if eternalism and annihilationism are the kinds of wrong view that typically arise when we are trying, unsuccessfully, to understand the Dhamma. That could explain the prominence given to them in many suttas. ------------ S: > p.s You'll be glad to hear that after several months of correspondence with the NSW ambulance department (mostly ignored their end after getting the cash) and our insurance (mostly ignored because NSW ambulance dept are not allowed to give a diagnosis on the receipt by law), I eventually got reimbursed for my little head-wound excursion, ------------- Yes, I am glad to hear that. I have thought about it from time to time and hoped you wouldn't give up the fight. I have a similar problem where my mother has been charged what seem to be very unfair bank-fees. It is so much trouble dealing through the `appropriate channels' etc. I hope your example will inspire me to get on with it. Ken H #68761 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Thu Feb 22, 2007 6:24 pm Subject: [dsg] Computer programming /was Re: Acceptance speech ken_aitch Hi Howard, ------- <. . .> KH: > > I don't wish to sound too sarcastic, but who doesn't already know those things? Howard: > Mmm, hmm. Yes, foolish Buddha teaching trivialities! Too bad us DSG folks weren't there to set him straight. (Now, how's THAT for sarcasm? LOLOL!) ------- Just for the record (just to make clear who, if anyone, is saying the Buddha taught trivialities) let me reiterate. I am saying the Buddha taught absolute realities. He taught their arising and their non- arising, and he taught how their non-arising-in-the-future could come to be. In the process of doing so, he taught which absolute realities were kusala, which were akusala, which were path factors, and which were not path factors. There is nothing trivial in any of that! ----------------- <. . .> KH: > > Really, Howard, if the quote you have given was not a description of > paramattha dhammas, what was it? Did it contain anything that 99.99 > per cent of listeners would not have already known? Howard: > Killing living beings, taking what is not given, misconduct in sensual pleasures, false speech, malicious speech, harsh speech, and gossip are all other than paramatta dhammas. ------------------- Can you see how they might possibly be paramattha dhammas (described in conventional language)? Ken H #68762 From: han tun Date: Thu Feb 22, 2007 6:33 pm Subject: Daana Corner (05) hantun1 Dear Dhamma Friends, This is taken from “The Practice of Giving” by Susan Elbaum Jootla. From this point on, Susan wrote the essay in the following sub-headings: * The Factor of Volition * The Recipient of Gifts * The Objects to be Given * The Perfection of Giving * The Ultimate Goal of Giving These will be taken up one by one. Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ------------------------------ The Factor of Volition The volition of the donor before, during and after the act of generosity is the most important of the three factors involved in the practice of giving: "If we have no control over our minds we will not choose proper gifts, the best recipient..., we will be unable to prepare them properly. And we may be foolish enough to regret having made them afterwards." [1] Buddhist teaching devotes special attention to the psychological basis of giving, distinguishing among the different states of mind with which one may give. A fundamental distinction is made between acts of giving that lack wisdom and those that are accompanied by wisdom, the latter being superior to the former. An example of a very elementary kind of giving would be the case of a young girl who places a flower on the household shrine simply because her mother tells her to do so, without having any idea of the significance of her act. Generosity associated with wisdom before, during and after the act is the highest type of giving. Three examples of wise giving are: giving with the clear understanding that according to the kammic law of cause and effect, the generous act will bring beneficial results in the future; giving while aware that the gift, the recipient and the giver are all impermanent; and giving with the aim of enhancing one's efforts to become enlightened. As the giving of a gift takes a certain amount of time, a single act of giving may be accompanied by each of these three types of understanding at a different stage in the process. Note: [1]. U Chit Tin, The Perfection of Generosity, Introduction. ‘The Factor of Volition’ to be continued. Han #68763 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Feb 22, 2007 7:07 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Persons scottduncan2 Hi Herman, Thanks for the reply: H: "References to cetasikas and their relation to cittas is may well cause problems with consensus. Because these are components of a theory of mind which I don't subscribe to. But seeing as we both speak excellent Canadian, I think this discussion has every chance of progessing to a place where we both understand each other very well." Way to stop a good discussion! The only reason I participate in this forum is clearly stated in the description on the home page. I only want to learn about Dhamma here as set out in the tipitaka, which includes the most comprehensive theory of mind I've yet to encounter, the Abhidhamma (the second best, in my opinion, being found in the psychoanalytic canon - also not part of the aim of this list). I am bored to death with the first cognitive revolution (remember the eighties?) and don't wish to discuss the second cognitive revolution despite its intriguing directions. I certainly don't wish to aimlessly generate armchair theories about the mind based on superficial understandings of substandard worldly notions. I want to learn Dhamma. I don't mind that we disagree on terms but the divergence in our sense of the aim of the overall discussion group seems more crippling. I fear that the only problem with consensus here is caused by the reticence of those shy and gentle readers who are interested in learning and discussing Dhamma but who can't or don't come to the fore to do so. This creates, in my opinion, a frustrating situation where a majority of the discussions are centred around a disparaging of the material which is the very stated topic of discussion here! How weird is that? I must go and put the visible objects to bed (a bit of performance art for you). Let me see how you react to the above and then I can get to the rest of your points should I survive the onslaught of your reply to do so. Sincerely, Scott. #68764 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Feb 22, 2007 2:13 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Persons upasaka_howard Hi, Herman (and Scott) - In a message dated 2/22/07 6:22:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, hhofmeister@... writes: > In any field of consciousness, which is always > complex, there is foreground and background. It is attention and > interest, guided by intention, that determine what is foreground. And > Scott and I can communicate with each other so that we can "draw" each > other's attention, so that the shoes and the vase become foreground > when previously they weren't. And in so communicating, our intentions > are made known, and can become shared. > ================= Yes. Good. :-) With metta, Howard #68765 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Feb 22, 2007 2:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A Question to Ask upasaka_howard Hi, TG - In a message dated 2/22/07 8:42:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@... writes: > Hi Howard > > Since this I believe this post was prompted by our prior discussion I'll > take a swipe at it. > > > In a message dated 2/22/2007 12:40:58 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, > upasaka@... writes: > > Hi, all - > > It has occurred to me that it might be instructive to ask materalists > what is their understanding of the state of death, and, to recall what was > your own understanding of it when you were a materialist, if you ever were. > > I > believe that the answer in both cases would be "a state of nothingness with > > no > experience of anything whatsoever in any sense occuring - a complete and > utter > nothing". > > TG: I'm not sure what you mean by materialists. (Sounds condescending.) ---------------------------------------- Howard: Does "idealist" or "phenomenalist" sound less so? Almost no one on this list thinks much of my radical phenomenalism, but so what? I don't agree with materialism, and I don't think it is a Buddhist position, but, I think it is actually a majority position in the West, and if one were to press even many theists, it would be discovered that they are crypto-materialists. --------------------------------------- I > > think you would for the moment put me in that camp? > ------------------------------------ Howard: I'm really not sure. I think you may be, thought I haven't heard that you wear a scarlet letter M! ;-) ----------------------------------- At any rate, I don't > > have an opinion about "material." I do not consider myself a "materialist" > as > I don't even believe in "matter per se." I do believe in energy, in the > sense of movement, and I believe in delusion and consciousness/awareness. > ------------------------------- Howard: That's kind of interesting: a multi-typed realm of phenomena. In your view, is the mental derivative of the material, or vice-versa, or are both of these forms of energy, as you see it, or is there no reductionism involved? -------------------------------- In my > > mind that would make me closer to a "spiritualist/energist" as long as > "spirit" does not include self. > ----------------------------- Howard: Ahh! I was close. An interesting, "fresh" perspective. ---------------------------- Perhaps "conditiontionalist" would better suit me. > > All of these labels are pretty meaningless to me. > > > > It then occurs to me to be instructive to consider the final nibbana > of those Buddhists who take it to be an absolute lack of any and all > experience > in every possible sense, and to compare that with the perspective on death > > discussed above. I find them to be one and the same. If no difference can > be > pointed out to me, then I find myself having to see such a nibbana as no > different from death, to see taking such a nibbana as a goal as suicidal - > as one of > the three cravings: the craving for nonbecoming (abhaava), and to see such > a > Buddhism as what some accuse the Dhamma lf itself as being, a species of > nihilism. > > TG: From a Buddhist point of view, suicide (based on a view of self), only > > continues a system of suffering. (Although one monk in the Suttas commits > suicide and is an arahat so that "system/individual" does not continue.) > > It is only individuals who believe in a "self being destroyed/annihilated" > that the term nihilism applies to. However, if life is mere conditions, > what > is there to be "ended" other than conditions arising and ceasing...which is > > what they are doing anyway. > "All I teach is suffering, and the end of suffering." This from the Buddha > > again shows that it is suffering that ends. Next -- The first Noble Truth > -- > "This is suffering." What is suffering? It is a system as represented by > the 12 fold chain. The Buddha teaches to END THIS SYSTEM. When that > system > has ended, there is no more suffering. Suicide has nothing to do with > ending > such a system. Most suicidal individuals would be suffering from an acute > sense-of-self and would be strongly bound to continuing the 12 fold cycle. ---------------------------------- Howard: That's true. Buddhists also aren't immune to that. --------------------------------- > > Nibbana mean extinction or extinguish in the sense of "put out." The > system/human who attains arahatship attains Nibbana (mental suffering is put > out) > and when death comes -- that whole system is "put out" (parinibbana), and > does > not arise again somewhere else according to the Suttas. > > I have provided quotes showing that such involves the ending of perception > and feeling and consciousness...and all experiences. These quotes are from > > the Suttas, not my own ramblings. ---------------------------------------- Howard: I know. It's a matter of interpretation, and for every interpretation, suttas can be found in support of it. It reminds me of the bible! LOL! -------------------------------------- > > I believe that if all sense-of-self is eradicated, there's nothing > disquieting about this. --------------------------------------- Howard: Not if one is properly prepared to handle it and push through it all the way, but it is most upsetting otherwise. It's like board breaking in the martial arts: if you go all the way, you painlessly smash right through, but if you pull your punch, the pain and damage can be severe. --------------------------------------- > > I think folks not comfortable with the idea of -- not experiencing in the > future -- are still clinging to the self. Some little self in there wants > to > survive. :-) -------------------------------------- Howard: The idea of cessation of experience doesn't frighten me. There was a time that I was rather sure that I was going to die, and soon, and, of course, I didn't *know* that experience would continue beyond my death. Certainly, all that I knew and valued would be gone. Yet I was fully accepting. I found that facing the seeming reality of death was easier to accept than the death of one's imagination. --------------------------------------- > > The real/main issue is to focus on suffering and overcoming it. Then let > the chips fall where they may after that. However, I do believe that a > pronounced view that there is experience after parinibbana will probably > prevent > that individual from attaining nibbana. (If that were my only attachment > I'd be > lucky!) LOL ------------------------------- Howard: ;-) ----------------------------- > > > > > With metta, > Howard > > > TG > ===================== With metta, Howard #68766 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Feb 22, 2007 2:43 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Question to Ask upasaka_howard Hi, Larry - In a message dated 2/22/07 9:08:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > There is a sutta which somewhat addresses this issue. Maybe someone knows > which one it > is; I don't. A group of bhikkhus decided the most expedient way to nibbana > would be to > simply die and someone offered to kill them. Then the Buddha said no no, > that's not the > way. Or something like that. > > Larry > ==================== Yes, I recall there is such a sutta, but I don't recall which. With metta, Howard #68767 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Feb 22, 2007 2:49 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Computer programming /was Re: Acceptance speech upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 2/22/07 9:29:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, ken_aitch@... writes: > Howard: > Killing living beings, taking what is not given, > misconduct in sensual pleasures, false speech, malicious speech, > harsh speech, and gossip are all other than paramatta dhammas. > ------------------- > > Can you see how they might possibly be paramattha dhammas (described > in conventional language)? > ------------------------------------- Howard: No. Such a view would be a contortion aimed explicitly at supporting personal opinion. The things I listed are not paramattha dhammas, but are all (well grounded) concepts, enormously complex aggregates of interelated paramattha dhammas, no different in that respect from trees, TV sets, dhamma lists, and people. ===================== With metta, Howard #68768 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Thu Feb 22, 2007 8:04 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Persons egberdina Scott, > I must go and put the visible objects to bed (a bit of performance art > for you). Let me see how you react to the above and then I can get to > the rest of your points should I survive the onslaught of your reply > to do so. I read this as quite an unwarranted personal attack. There is no good purpose in replying. There is such technology as an ignore list. Herman #68769 From: connie Date: Thu Feb 22, 2007 8:14 pm Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (33) nichiconn Dear Friends, part one of: Ubbiritheriigaathaava.n.nanaa / The commentary on the verses of Therii Ubbirii -- Amma, jiivaati-aadikaa ubbiriyaa theriyaa gaathaa. Ayampi purimabuddhesu kataadhikaaraa tattha tattha bhave viva.t.tuupanissaya.m kusala.m upacinantii padumuttarassa bhagavato kaale ha.msavatiinagare kulagehe nibbattitvaa vi~n~nuta.m pattaa ekadivasa.m maataapituusu ma"ngala.m anubhavitu.m gehantaragatesu adutiyaa saya.m gehe ohiinaa The verses beginning Mother, [you cry out] "O Jiiva" are Therii Ubbirii's. She too performed meritorious deed under previous Buddhas and accumulated good [actions] in various lives as [her] basis for release. At the time of the Blessed One Padumuttara, she was born in the home of a [good] family in the town of Ha.msavatii. One day after she came of age, her mother and father went to another house to enjoy a festival. She was left behing at home all by herself. (RD: Come to years of discretion, she was left alone one day, her parents being engaged with a party in the inner court of the house.) upaka.t.thaaya velaaya bhagavato saavaka.m eka.m khii.naasavatthera.m gehadvaarasamiipena gacchanta.m disvaa bhikkha.m daatukaamaa, "bhante, idha pavisathaa"ti vatvaa there geha.m pavi.t.the pa~ncapati.t.thitena thera.m vanditvaa gonakaadiihi aasana.m pa~n~naapetvaa adaasi. Nisiidi thero pa~n~natte aasane. Saa patta.m gahetvaa pi.n.dapaatassa puuretvaa therassa hatthe .thapesi. Thero anumodana.m katvaa pakkaami. When the [meal] time approached, she saw a disciple of the Blessed One, a thera who had destroyed all his defilements, coming near the door of her house. Wishing to give him alms food, she said, "Please enter, venerable sir." The thera entered the house, and she paid homage to the thera with the fivefold prostration and gave him a sear prepared with a woollen cover, etc. The thera sat down on the designated seat. She took his bowl, filled it with alms food, and placed it in his hands. The thera rejoiced [in her good deed] and went away. Saa tena pu~n~nakammena taavati.msesu nibbattitvaa tattha yaavataayuka.m u.laaradibbasampatti.m anubhavitvaa tato cutaa sugatiisuyeva sa.msarantii imasmi.m buddhuppaade saavatthiya.m gahapatimahaasaalakule nibbattitvaa ubbiriiti laddhanaamaa abhiruupaa dassaniiyaa paasaadikaa ahosi. Saa vayappattakaale kosalara~n~naa attano geha.m niitaa, Accordingly, through that meritorious deed, she was reborn in the Taavati.msa [realm]. There, she lived out her term experiencing supreme, divine prosperity. Then she died and journeyed on only in happy existences. In this Buddha era, she was born in the home of a wealthy householder in Saavatthi. She received the name Ubbiri and was beautiful, fair to behold, of serene loveliness. When she came of age, the king of Kosala led her to his own home. (RD notes the King contemporary with Gotama Buddha was Pasenadi.) katipayasa.mvaccharaatikkamena eka.m dhiitara.m labhi. Tassaa jiivantiiti naama.m aka.msu Raajaa tassaa dhiitara.m disvaa tu.t.thamaanaso ubbiriyaa abhiseka.m adaasi. Dhiitaa panassaa aadhaavitvaa paridhaavitvaa vicara.nakaale kaalamakaasi. Maataa yattha tassaa sariiranikkhepo kato, ta.m susaana.m gantvaa divase divase paridevati. Ekadivasa.m satthu santika.m gantvaa vanditvaa thoka.m nisiiditvaa gataa aciravatiinadiyaa tiire .thatvaa dhiitara.m aarabbha paridevati. A few years went by and she had a daughter. And they made her name Jiivantii. The king saw his daughter and was pleased in his mind, and he had Ubbirii anointed [a queen]. But her daughter ran around, ran in all directions, continuously moving around, and she died. The mother lamented every day, going to that cemetary where her body was laid out. One day, she went into the presence of the Teacher. She paid homage and sat down for a little while. Then she went to the banks of the river Aciravatii and lamented in connection with her daughter. (RD: After a few years a daughter was born to her, whom she named Jiivaa. *157 *157 Meaning Psyche, or, more literally, 'alive,' 'Viva.') Ta.m disvaa satthaa gandhaku.tiya.m yathaanisinnova attaana.m dassetvaa "kasmaa vippalapasii"ti pucchi. Seeing her while seated in the Perfumed Chamber, the Teacher appeared himself [before her] and asked, "Why are you babbling?" "Mama dhiitara.m aarabbha vippalapaami, bhagavaa"ti. "O Lord," she said, "I am lamenting because of my daughter." "Imasmi.m susaane jhaapitaa tava dhiitaro caturaasiitisahassamattaa, taasa.m katara sandhaaya vippalapasii"ti. Taasa.m ta.m ta.m aa.laahana.t.thaana.m dassetvaa- 51. "Amma jiivaati vanamhi kandasi, attaana.m adhigaccha ubbiri; cullaasiitisahassaani, sabbaa jiivasanaamikaa; etamhaa.laahane da.d.dhaa, taasa.m kamanusocasii"ti.- Sa-upa.d.dhagaathamaaha. "Eighty-four thousand of your daughters have been cremated in this cemetary. In connection with which one of them are you lamenting?" [the Buddha asked.] And after showing her their cremation site, he spoke this verse and a half: 51. Mother, you cry out "O Jiiva" in the wood. Understand yourself, Ubbirii. Eighty-four thousand* [daughters], all with the name Jiiva, have been burned in this funeral fire. Which of these do you grieve for? RD: O Ubbirii, who wailest in the wood, Crying 'O Jiivaa! O my daughter dear!' Come to thyself! Lo, in this burying-ground Are burnt full many a thousand daughters dear, And all of them were named like unto her. Now which of all those Jiivaas dost thou mourn? (51) * RD: A staple figure used when any great number is meant. Of course, the circumstances of infinitely numerous previous lives of Ubbirii are here implied. Tattha, amma, jiivaati maatupacaaranaamena dhiituyaa aalapana.m, ida~ncassaa vippalapanaakaaradassana.m. Vanamhi kandasiiti vanamajjhe paridevasi. Attaana.m adhigaccha ubbiriiti ubbiri tava attaanameva taava bujjhassu yaathaavato jaanaahi. Cullaasiitisahassaaniiti caturaasiitisahassaani. Sabbaa jiivasanaamikaati taa sabbaapi jiivanti, yaa samaananaamikaa. Etamhaa.laahane da.d.dhaati etamhi susaane jhaapitaa. Taasa.m kamanusocasiiti taasu jiivantiinaamaasu caturaasiitisahassamattaasu ka.m sandhaaya tva.m anusocasi anusoka.m aapajjasiiti eva.m satthaaraa dhamme desite desanaanusaarena ~naa.na.m pesetvaa vipassana.m aarabhitvaa satthu desanaavilaasena attano ca hetusampattiyaa yathaa.thaataava vipassana.m ussukkaapetvaa maggapa.tipaa.tiyaa aggaphale arahatte pati.t.thaasi. 51. There, Mother ... "O Jiiva" means: she is addressing her daughter with the name appropriate for a mother. And this is the pointing out of her lamenting. You cry out (kandasi) ... in the wood (vanamhi) means: you lament (paridevai) in the middle of the forest (vana-majjhe). Understand yourself (attaana.m adhigaccha), Ubbirii means: O Ubbiri, do be awakened (taava bujjhassu) to you yourself (tava attaanam) as you really are indeed. Eighty-four thousand (cullaasiiti-sahassaani) means: eighty-four thousand (caturaasiiti-sahassaani). All with the name Jiiva (Jiiva-sanaamikaa) means: all of them with the same name (samaana-naamikaa) of Jiivantii. Have been burned (da.d.dhaa) in this funeral fire (etamh'aa.laahane) means: have been cremated (jhaapitaa) in this cemetery (etamhi susaane). Thus the Doctrine taught by the Teacher served [to develop] her knowledge as a consequence of the discourse. She began [developing] insight. Because of the beauty of the Teacher's discourse and because of her attainment of the prerequisites, just as she was standing there, she eagerly practised insight and through the paths, one after the other, was established in the highest fruition state of Arahatship. ====== to be continued, connie. #68770 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Feb 22, 2007 8:29 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Persons scottduncan2 Hi Herman, H: "I read this as quite an unwarranted personal attack. There is no good purpose in replying. There is such technology as an ignore list." I fear you have misunderstood me, Herman. I have no desire to attack you and feel none of the emotions I feel when such a thing occurs. If I had wished to ignore you I would have, but I don't. I simply want to figure out how we can discuss Dhamma. Your first point seemed to be one that needed clarification and I gave my opinion, which I am the first to say isn't anything more than that - and not much either. How can we discuss something we can't find commonality with? I don't want to alienate you by discussing cittas and cetasikas (which is what I want to discuss) nor do I want to relate in a false way pretending to want to theorise about the mind in other ways (which you want to do). Is this an impasse that we two have reached? If so it certainly isn't anything personal. Please feel free to consider me narrow-minded or myopic or whatever because it may be totally true. I don't mind the attributions. I am not these things as an attack on you - I just am that way. Mine was a statement related to the process of discussion on the list in general (which everyone might take me to task for and which I won't mind either) and a plea to you to let me know how, if at all, we can find a consensus to continue the discussion we are in the middle of given your stated limitations on it. That's all. Sincerely, Scott. #68771 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Thu Feb 22, 2007 8:52 pm Subject: [dsg] Computer programming /was Re: Acceptance speech ken_aitch Hi Howard, -------------- <. . .> H: > No. Such a view would be a contortion aimed explicitly at supporting personal opinion. -------------- As far as I know, the "view' you are referring to is in strict accordance with the suttas, the Abhidhamma and the ancient commentaries. So there is no contorting to be done. ------------------ H: > The things I listed are not paramattha dhammas, but are all (well grounded) concepts, enormously complex aggregates of interrelated paramattha dhammas, no different in that respect from trees, TV sets, dhamma lists, and people. ------------------ Again: 'as far as I know' there is no mention in any Buddhist text of "well grounded concepts." Nor is there any mention of "enormously complex aggregates of interrelated paramattha dhammas." Do the former have inherent characteristics that other, not so well grounded, concepts lack? If so, what are those characteristics? Ken H #68772 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Thu Feb 22, 2007 9:28 pm Subject: [dsg] Computer programming /was Re: Acceptance speech rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Ken - > > In a message dated 2/22/07 9:29:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, > ken_aitch@... writes: > > > Howard: > Killing living beings, taking what is not given, > > misconduct in sensual pleasures, false speech, malicious speech, > > harsh speech, and gossip are all other than paramatta dhammas. > > ------------------- > > > > Can you see how they might possibly be paramattha dhammas (described > > in conventional language)? > > > ------------------------------------- > Howard: > No. Such a view would be a contortion aimed explicitly at supporting > personal opinion. The things I listed are not paramattha dhammas, but are all > (well grounded) concepts, enormously complex aggregates of interelated > paramattha dhammas, no different in that respect from trees, TV sets, dhamma lists, > and people. > ========= Dear Ken and Howard http://www.palikanon.com/english/sangaha/chapter_1.htm This section descibing types of citta is relevant to your discussion. ILLUSTRATIVE EXAMPLES FOR THE TWELVE DIFFERENT TYPES OF IMMORAL CONSCIOUSNESS: 18. Attachment (1.) With joy a boy instantly steals an apple, viewing no evil thereby. (2.) Prompted by a friend, a boy joyfully steals an apple, viewing no evil thereby. (3.) (4.) The same illustration serves for the third and fourth types of consciousness with the difference that the stealing is done without any false view. (5.) (6.) (7.) (8.) The remaining four types of consciousness are similar to the above with the difference that the stealing is done with neutral feeling. Ill-will (9.) With hatred one murders another without any premeditation. (10.) With hatred one murders another after premeditation. --------------------------- Consciouness pertaining to the sensuous Sphere (kamavacara-citt?ni) Immoral Consciousness (akusala citt?ni) ?˜ 4. tattha katamam k?m?vacaram? ?˜ 4. Amongst them what is K?m?vacara? (Consciousness Rooted in Attachment) 1. Somanassa-sahagatam, ditthigatasampayuttam, asankh?rikam ekam One consciousness, unprompted, accompanied by pleasure, connected with wrong view 2. Somanassa-sahagatam, ditthigatasampayuttam, sasankh?rikam ekam, One consciousness, prompted, accompanied by pleasure, connected with wrong view 3. Somanassa-sahagatam ditthigatavippayuttam, asankh?rikam ekam One consciousness, unprompted, accompanied by pleasure, disconnected with wrong view 4. Somanassa-sahagatam ditthigatavippayuttam, sasankh?rikam ekam One consciousness, prompted, accompanied by pleasure, disconnected with wrong view 5. Upekkh?-sahagatam, ditthigatasampayuttam, asankh?rikam ekam One consciousness, unprompted, accompanied by indifference, connected with wrong view 6. Upekkh?-sahagatam, ditthigatasampayuttam, sasankh?rikam ekam One consciousness, prompted, accompanied by indifference, connected with wrong view 7. Upekkh?-sahagatam, ditthigatavippayuttam, asankh?rikam ekam One consciousness, unprompted, accompanied by indifference, disconnected with wrong view 8. Upekkh?-sahagatam, ditthigatavippayuttam, sasankh?rikam ekan' ti One consciousness, prompted, accompanied by indifference, disconnected with wrong view Im?ni attha'pi Lobhasahagatacitt?ni n?ma These eight types of consciousness are rooted in Attachment (Consciousness Rooted in Ill-will or Aversion) 9. Domanassasahagatam, patighasampayuttam, asankh?rikam ekam One consciousness, unprompted, accompanied by displeasure, connected with ill-will 10. Domanassasahagatam, patighasampayuttam, sasankh?rikam ekan' ti One consciousness, prompted, accompanied by displeasure, connected with ill-will Imani dve'pi Patighasampayuttacitt?ni n?ma. These two types of consciousness are connected with Ill-will. (Consciousness Rooted in Delusion or Ignorance) 11. Upekkh?-sahagatam, vicikicch?-sampayuttam ekam, One consciousness, accompanied by indifference, and connected with doubts, 12. Upekkh?-sahagatam, uddhacca-sampayuttam ekan 'ti One consciousness, accompanied by indifference, and connected with restlessness. Imani dve' pi Mom?hacitt?ni n?ma Icce'vam sabbath? pi dv?dasakusala-citt?ni samatt?ni. These two types of consciousness are rooted in sheer Ignorance. Thus end, in all, the twelve types of Immoral Consciousness.** Robert #68773 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Thu Feb 22, 2007 9:33 pm Subject: Re: Lachen und Weinen (Was: Re: [dsg] Meditation (again) egberdina Hi Jon, > > The pain is unpleasant, but there's no aversion to it. Pain, in my books, is already an aversive reaction to a stimulus. So is a feeling of unpleasantness. At a certain level of jhana pleasantness and unpleasantness do not arise. This is a state of non-evaluation, but beyond that, at a grosser level of awareness, there is evaluation. The vedana taste of a sensation is not an impulsion to react, it already is a reaction. I accept that there are degrees in this. But the suggestion that there is pain that is and isn't reacted to doesn't look closely enough at what level reactivity starts. There is a good explanation for the fact that people of certain attainments can burn themselves to a crisp as a political protest, without so much as a whimper. It is not because they are carefully monitoring each painful burning sensation and biting their tongue to prevent reacting, it is because there are no such sensations in their jhana state. Pain that is not further reacted to is identical with any other display of Stoicism. > > No, I cannot conceive of such a state. If the circumstances of whoever > > I am trying to assist do not arouse aversion in me, why would I think > > that they are suffering? > > > > Herman, are you serious here? ;-)) No sympathy for another unless there > is aversion? (In that case, the more aversion, the more sympathy, > perhaps ;-)) > I'm quite serious. "Sym-pathy" is "feeling with" or "feeling together". And feeling is already a reaction. I am reminded of Sangamaji Ud 1:8, who was not so much ignoring his child laid at his feet, but unaware of him. The stronger a feeling, the more likely a person will further act. But not further acting on a feeling is only Stoicism, and perhaps a denial that one has already acted. Are you suggesting that it would be possible to act bodily and sympathetically in the world without being motivated by feelings? In my books such action would amount to the actions of a robot. > > The enlightened being still experiences various kinds of suffering > (e.g., bodily pain), and also has first-hand knowledge of other kinds of > suffering from experience prior to enlightenment. So there is no loss > of capacity to appreciate the suffering being experienced by a > non-enlightened being. > The capacity to appreciate the suffering of another is called feelings. And when not at a particular level of jhanas, feelings do occur. But when in the higher jhanas, other beings do not occur. Unfortunately, it is one or the other. To be compassionate, you have to be in the world, and you have no choice but to react to the world, seeking to change it. Or you can be in the jhanas, but are there quite alone, and compassion plays no role. Kind Regards Herman #68774 From: connie Date: Thu Feb 22, 2007 9:39 pm Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (33) nichiconn Dear Friends, part two: Ubbirii. Tena vutta.m apadaane (apa. therii 2.2.37-60)- As it is said in the Apadaana: "Nagare ha.msavatiyaa, ahosi.m baalikaa tadaa; maataa ca me pitaa ceva, kammanta.m agama.msu te. "Majjhanhikamhi suuriye, addasa.m sama.na.m aha.m; viithiyaa anugacchanta.m, aasana.m pa~n~napesaha.m. "Gonakaavikatikaahi, pa~n~napetvaa mamaasana.m; pasannacittaa sumanaa, ida.m vacanamabravi.m. "Santattaa kuthitaa bhuumi, suuro majjhanhike .thito; maalutaa ca na vaayanti, kaalo cevettha mehiti. "Pa~n~nattamaasanamida.m, tavatthaaya mahaamuni; anukampa.m upaadaaya, nisiida mama aasane. I was a young girl in the town of Ha.msavatii. And my mother and father went out for work. I saw a recluse going along the street in the midday sun. I spread out a seat [for him]. Having spread out the seat with wollen cover, etc., favourably disposed [towards him] and joyful, spoke these words: The earth was hot and baked, the midday sun stood [in the sky], and the winds did not blow. Here indeed my opportunity will come. "O great seer, this seat has been prepared for your sake. Sit on my seat out of sympathy [for me]." "Nisiidi tattha sama.no, sudanto suddhamaanaso; tassa patta.m gahetvaana, yathaarandha.m adaasaha.m. "Tena kammena sukatena, cetanaapa.nidhiihi ca; jahitvaa maanusa.m deha.m, taavati.msamagacchaha.m. "Tattha me sukata.m byamha.m, aasanena sunimmita.m; sa.t.thiyojanamubbedha.m, ti.msayojanavitthata.m. "So.n.namayaa ma.nimayaa, athopi phalikaamayaa; lohita"ngamayaa ceva, palla"nkaa vividhaa mama. "Tuulikaavikatikaahi, ka.t.tissacittakaahi ca; uddha-ekantalomii ca, palla"nkaa me susa.n.thitaa. The well-tamed recluse who had a pure mind sat down there. I took his bowl and gave him what I had cooked. As a result of that virtuous deed and of my resolve and purpose, when I abandoned my human body, I went to the Tavavati.msa realm. There, there was a well-made dwelling place for me equipped with a seat that was sixty leagues high and thirty leagues wide. And thre were also diffferent sorts of couches for me made of gold, jewels, crystal, and rubies. My couches were well established with mattresses with woollen covers, silk covers of many colours, and covers of fur. "Yadaa icchaami gamana.m, haasakhi.d.dasamappitaa; saha palla"nkase.t.thena, gacchaami mama patthita.m. "Asiitidevaraajuuna.m, mahesittamakaarayi.m; sattaticakkavattiina.m, mahesittamakaarayi.m. "Bhavaabhave sa.msarantii, mahaabhoga.m labhaamaha.m; bhoge me uunataa natthi, ekaasanassida.m phala.m. "Duve bhave sa.msaraami, devatte atha maanuse; a~n~ne bhave na jaanaami, ekaasanassida.m phala.m. "Duve kule pajaayaami, khattiye caapi braahma.ne; uccaakuliinaa sabbattha, ekaasanassida.m phala.m. "Domanassa.m na jaanaami, cittasantaapana.m mama; veva.n.niya.m na jaanaami, ekaasanassida.m phala.m. When I wished for a journey, I went as I desired in the best of my couches, given over to laughter and amusement. I ruled as the chief queen of eighty deva kings and as the chief queen of seventy wheel-turning monarchs. As I journeyed on in various existences, I obtained great wealth. There was no lack in my enjoyment. This was the consequence of [the gift] of that one seat. I have known two [sorts of] families: Khattiya and brahman. [I was] of high family everywhere. This was the consequence of [the gift] of that one seat. "Dhaatiyo ma.m upa.t.thanti, khujjaa celaapikaa bahuu; a"nkena a"nka.m gacchaami, ekaasanassida.m phala.m. "A~n~naa nhaapenti bhojenti, a~n~naa ramenti ma.m sadaa; a~n~naa gandha.m vilimpanti, ekaasanassida.m phala.m. "Ma.n.dape rukkhamuule vaa, su~n~naagaare vasantiyaa; mama sa"nkappama~n~naaya, palla"nko upati.t.thati. "Aya.m pacchimako mayha.m, carimo vattate bhavo; ajjaapi rajja.m cha.d.detvaa, pabbaji.m anagaariya.m. "Satasahassito kappe, ya.m daanamadadi.m tadaa; duggati.m naabhijaanaami, ekaasanassida.m phala.m. Many nurses, hunchbacks, and female attendants looked after me. I went from lap to lap. This was the consequence of [the gift] of that one seat. Some bathed me, others fed me. They delighted me always. Some smeared me with perfume. This was the consequence of [the gift] of that one seat. Or living in solitude in a pavilion at the foot of a tree, when a couch learned my intentions, it came to me. This is my last, my final existence. This very day I abandoned my kingdom and went forth into the homeless state. In the one hundred thousand aeons since I gave that gift, I am not aware of [birth in] any realm of misery. This was the consequence of [the gift] of that one seat. "Kilesaa jhaapitaa mayha.m {, bhavaa sabbe samuuhataa; naagiiva bandhana.m chetvaa, viharaami anaasavaa. "Svaagata.m vata me aasi, buddhase.t.thassa santike; tisso vijjaa anuppattaa, kata.m buddhassa saasana.m. "Pa.tisambhidaa catasso, vimokkhaapi ca a.t.thime; cha.labhi~n~naa sacchikataa,} kata.m buddhassa saasanan"ti. My defilements are burnt out, {all [future] births are completely destroyed. Having severed my bonds like an elephant, I live without taints. Welcome indeed was the presence of the Best of Buddhas to me. I have attained the three true knowledges. I have done the Buddha's teaching. The four discriminations and also the eight liberations are mine. I have realized the six direct knowledges.} I have done the Buddha's teaching. arahatte pana pati.t.thaaya attanaa adhigatavisesa.m pakaasentii- 52. "abbahii tava me salla.m, duddasa.m hadayassita.m; ya.m me sokaparetaaya, dhiitusoka.m byapaanudi. 53. "Saajja abbuu.lhasallaaha.m, nicchaataa parinibbutaa; buddha.m dhamma~nca sa"ngha~nca, upemi sara.na.m munin"ti.- Imaa dve gaathaa abhaasi. And standing firm in the state of Arahatship, making known the distinction she had attained by herself, she spoke these two verses: 52. Truly he has plucked out my dart, hard to see, nestling in my heart, he has thrust away that grief for my daughter for me, overcome by grief. 53. Today I have my dart plucked out. I am without hunger, quenched. I go to the Buddha, the Sage; the Doctrine; and the Order as refuge. (RD: And she pondered with intelligence on the Norm thus taught by the Master, and so stirred up insight that, by the charm of his teaching and her own attainment of the requisite conditions, she reached the topmost fruit, even Arahantship. *159 And showing forth the high distinction she had won, she spoke the second half of the psalm: Lo! from my heart the hidden shaft is gone! The shaft that nestled there hath he removed. And that consuming grief for my dead child Which poisoned all the life of me is dead. (52) To-day my heart is healed, my yearning stayed, And all within is purity and peace. *160 Lo! I for refuge to the Buddha go - The only wise - the Order and the Norm. *161 (53) *159 She not only reaches it as a lay-woman, but her subsequent entry into the Order is not even mentioned. *160 A free rendering of the one word parinibbutaa. Cf. ver. 132. *161 The orthodox sequence is Norm, Order, here inverted metri causa. The inversion is actually met with in later Buddhism.) Tattha abbahii vata me salla.m, duddasa.m hadayassitanti anupacitakusalasambhaarehi yaathaavato duddasa.m mama cittasannissita.m pii.laajananato dunniihara.nato anto tudanato ca "sallan"ti laddhanaama.m soka.m ta.nha~nca abbahii vata niihari vata. Ya.m me sokaparetaayaati yasmaa sokena abhibhuutaaya mayha.m dhiitusoka.m byapaanudi anavasesato niihari, tasmaa abbahii vata me sallanti yojanaa. 52. There, Truly (vata) he has plucked out my dart, hard to see, nestling in my heart means: truly (yaathaavato) because [I was} without the requisites of accumulated good actions, it is hard to see, producing pain in connection with my mind. It received the name dart because it pierces within and is difficult to remove. It is grief and craving. Truly he has plucked out (abbahii vata) [means:] truly he has removed (niihari vata). Which grief (soka-paretaaya) ... for me (me) means: since he has thrust away (byapaanudi) the grief for my daughter that overwhelmed (sokena abhibhuutaaya) me (mayha.m), [since] he removed (niihari) it without remainder; therefore, "truly he has plucked out my dart." That is the connection [between the two lines]. Saajja abbuu.lhasallaahanti saa aha.m ajja sabbaso uddha.tata.nhaasallaa tato eva nicchaataa parinibbutaa. Muninti sabba~n~nubuddha.m tadupadesitamaggaphalanibbaanapabheda.m navavidhalokuttaradhamma~nca, tattha pati.t.thita.m a.t.tha-ariyapuggalasamuuhasa"nkhaata.m sa"ngha~nca, anuttarehi tehi yojanato sakalava.t.tadukkhavinaasanato ca sara.na.m taa.na.m le.na.m paraaya.nanti, upemi upagacchaami bujjhaami sevaami caati attho. Ubbiritheriigaathaava.n.nanaa ni.t.thitaa. 53. Today I (saajja = saa ajja) have my dart plucked out (abbuu.lhasallaaha.m) means: today I (saa aha.m ajja) have the dart of craving drawn out (uddha.ta-ta.nhaa-sallaa), and after that I am without hunger, quenched. The Sage means: the omniscient Buddha, and the nine divisions of the supramundane Doctrine that is comprised of the [four] paths, the [four] fruition states, and quenching taught by him, and the Order of those called the group of eight types of noble persons established in that [Doctrine] because of the linking of these and because of the destruction of all the misery of rolling on. [They are] a refuge (sara.na.m), a protection (le.na.m), a shelter (taa.na.m) a support (paraaya.nan). I go [to them] (upemi), I go (upaggacchaami), I am awake [to] (bujjhaami), and I resort (sevaami) [to them]. That is the meaning. Here ends the commentary on the verses by Theri Ubbirii. ===== c. #68775 From: TGrand458@... Date: Thu Feb 22, 2007 4:41 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A Question to Ask TGrand458@... Hi Howard In a message dated 2/22/2007 8:40:56 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, upasaka@... writes: Howard: That's kind of interesting: a multi-typed realm of phenomena. In your view, is the mental derivative of the material, or vice-versa, or are both of these forms of energy, as you see it, or is there no reductionism involved? -------------------------------- TG: I have written before that I do not consider there to be a difference between nama and rupa other than in their "mode of conditional state." I.E., I believe they are interacting and inter-displacing energies. I do not see them as "different or separate realities" for example. BTW, I very much like your "content of consciousness" as opposed to "object of consciousness." A vision of an "object" is most likely to be an "entity/self" view. But I believe that conceptualizing the impermanent interactions of external phenomena is a legitimate and valuable practice. I would not want to give up the POWER of such a practice because of only accepting personal direct experience. Since the Suttas are replete with "such external examples," I feel confident in the legitimacy of this approach. However, when I try to insightfully view external phenomena, I view such in terms of "principles of interaction" and not as objects. Then I relate and apply those principles to "my" khandas and the interactions between both ... "internal and external." There is both conceptualization and direct experience involved. But I believe all methods involve both anyway. I have provided quotes showing that such involves the ending of perception > and feeling and consciousness. and feeling and consciousness...and all exp > > the Suttas, not my own ramblings. ---------------------------------------- Howard: I know. It's a matter of interpretation, and for every interpretation, suttas can be found in support of it. It reminds me of the bible! LOL! -------------------------------------- TG: Yea. To the extent where some Buddhist schools end up desiring for material goods in the name of Buddhism. Nam yo ho ho ho. ;-) Anything else in your post is agreed to. TG: #68776 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Thu Feb 22, 2007 10:13 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Computer programming /was Re: Acceptance speech egberdina Hi KenH, > > Again: 'as far as I know' there is no mention in any Buddhist text > of "well grounded concepts." Nor is there any mention of "enormously > complex aggregates of interrelated paramattha dhammas." Do the former > have inherent characteristics that other, not so well grounded, > concepts lack? If so, what are those characteristics? > If you want to stay true to the tradition, then you would limit yourself to the following in this discussion. I have left these in their original language, because clearly you believe authenticity is important, if not (dia)critical.:-) I 'm no good with diacriticals so bear with me. The Abhidhamma allows for: Nama Pannatti Vijjamana Pannatti Avijjamana Pannatti Vijjamana Avijjamana Pannatti Avijjamanena Vijjamana Pannatti Vijjamanena Vijjamana Pannatti Avijjamanena Avijjamana Pannatti Attha Pannatti Santati Pannatti Samuha Pannatti Satta Pannatti Disa Pannatti Kala Pannatti Akasa Pannatti Nimitta Pannatti Kind Regards Herman #68777 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Feb 22, 2007 10:38 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Mystery of Consciousness sarahprocter... Hi Herman (Chris & all), I'd like to 'revitalise' these comments of yours and keep them in the ring: --- Herman Hofman wrote: > Hi Christine and All, > > I would like to revitalise the possibility of discussion on the > matters raised by your original post, which essentially referred the > reader to http://tinyurl.com/3ck5qe. > > In seeking to renew the discussion, I would like to refer to a sutta, > which far from making materialism a heresy to be avoided, implies > rather that notions of disembodied consciousness have no place in > Buddhism. ..... S: I don't pretend to understand your comments, probably because I only had time for a quick 'skim' of the article when referred to. Taking your comments rather literally, lots of 'pure material' (i.e. rupas) in the teachings as you'll read about in Nina's series on them which she's posting. As for 'disembodied consciousness' having no place - isn't consciousness always 'disembodied'? There's never any rupa or body of any kind in it? If you're referring to consciousness arising without any rupas - well, we can find examples of this in the arupa brahma realm, surely? .... > > The sutta is MN43, and particularly relevant is the following section: > > > "When this body lacks how many qualities does it lie discarded & > forsaken, like a senseless log?" > > "When this body lacks these three qualities — vitality, heat, & > consciousness — it lies discarded & forsaken like a senseless log." ... S: Yes, when there is no longer vitality (jivitindriya), temperature (tejo) and consciousness (cittas) arising -- what we have are just rupas, 'like a senseless log' by way of the body. The cittas of course have meanwhile continued their 'run' in whatever new life kamma has conditioned. Perhaps others will pursue the topic as related to the article. Metta, Sarah ========= #68778 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Feb 22, 2007 11:12 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A final venting from phil, probably. sarahprocter... Hi Mike (Phil & Rob K), --- "m. nease" wrote: > Just FYI Phil, I did the same for six months in Thailand and three > months in > Burma (though not nearly so well-placed as Robert). This is not to > boast, > just to let you know that I've checked out the possibilities to some > extent. > Interestingly, Robert and I still share a deep attachment (if I may say > so, > Rob) to the Zendo (ç¦…å ‚). ..... S: I think it's one thing (as you honestly indicate here) to look for quiet 'secluded' spots out of pure attachment - we do it all the time! One might also look for such spots for a particular purpose. For example, a friend of ours moved into a caravan far from home for a long period to write a book. It may also be for one's dhamma studies or a cheap way of being able to stay in Thailand or Burma. Lodewijk was talking in Thailand about how he and Nina used to stay in Benedictine monasteries (before they had an interest in Buddhism). It's fine if one likes to do so and doesn't have an illusion about such seclusion in itself being better for the development of satipatthana. But Phil was talking about looking for such seclusion as a way to develop more understanding of present realities, like using a microscope. This is where we go wrong, I believe - when there's an idea of a better time, a different time from right now. He wrote: P:>"But seeking elements of that seclusion by getting up very early before even the mice are stirring, sitting in a quiet room, going to a hut I've found in a woody hillside park near my place to meditate, using earplugs, closing one's eyes...those forms are increasing elements of seclusion are very helpful. I'm actually kind of amazed that any former meditators don't sometimes have a go at it and see for themselves. What is a suitable metaphor? A microscope? A stethoscope? Being able to see processes of the mind in a way that one wouldn't in less secluded conditions."< .... M:> Now, Rose and I play cribbage and chess every day. The same (different) > dhammas arise and subside as did in the temples. .... S: Exactly so. I would just say the same kind of dhammas - seeing, visible object, attachment, thinking.....still just 6 doorways! ***** > From: "rjkjp1" > > There are so many people who listen to Khun Sujin, some live simple > > lives,celibate, 8 precepts; some enjoy the five strands. .... S: Rob, I wondered, does this mean that those who live 'simple lives, celibate, 8 precepts' don't 'enjoy the five strands' or did I misread you? Metta, Sarah ======== #68779 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Feb 22, 2007 11:45 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Tathagatas Sangha is a Guide to Happiness!!! sarahprocter... Hi Ramesh, Sorry for the delay in replying to your question! --- Ramesh Patil wrote: > Can u give me now ur introduction!! > U r from where..what u r doing now...??? > How u get introduced with dhamma??? .... S: I'm from England, living in Hong Kong. Just seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching and lots of thinking. Lots of attachment and ignorance, but occaionally moments of dana, sila and bhavana - especially appreciating the Buddha's word, like now:-) I started becoming interested in dhamma when I was at university studying psychology. As soon as I had a chance, I travelled overland (with very, very little money) to your country, India to study more. I spent nearly a couple of years in India, Nepal and Sri Lanka, living in Tibetan tents and temples, following this interest. That was over 30 years ago. ... > I am from India...Mumbai..S/W professional > Thanks & Regards > Ramesh Patil > Mumbai,India .... S: Yes, I remember your introduction. You're a software engineer and are involved in the Goenka courses in Mumbai as I recall. I've only spent a little time in Mumbai. I hope the problems from floods and bombs and so on are all over now. Please join in any of the threads which interest you. There are other lurking members from India here and of course Nitesh is from Nepal. I hope to join a pilgrimage to the Buddhist holy places in India again next November with Nina, Jon and many, many other friends. It'll be starting in Delhi. Metta, Sarah ========= #68780 From: Trasvin Date: Thu Feb 22, 2007 11:51 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Attasañña trasvin Hi Khun Mike, I am afraid that you are asking the wrong person. I don't know Pali. I used the term according to how I heard it in Thai. At one time, Than Achan asked me how was my business trip. I replied that for the past 7 days I was in China, kukkucca (worried about the previous akusala-kamma and about to-be-done kusala-kamma) arose all the time. She said [my problem] caused from attasañña, the memory of me-mine over and over. After that, kukucca happen less frequently. The subject in all books, even the subject is about Dhamma, is the produce of sañña. It is not paramattha dhamma. That is what I understand. Eventhough the Nyanatiloka Buddhist Dictionary, provided a deffinition to atta-dhitthi similar to attasañña, I am not sure that it uses in the same context as I never heard anyone use the word. I understand that sañña is something like habit. You might not like th habit and want to get rid of it but it keeps coming back. Dhitthi is what you believe in. Anyway, I will pass your question to three Pali scholar I am associated with, as well as a resource person at the Foundation. Thanks for asking. I am learning something too. Best wishes, --Jiw > > Is attasañña synonymous with attadi.t.thi? If > not, how are they different > and can one be present without the other? > #68781 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Fri Feb 23, 2007 2:40 am Subject: [dsg] Computer programming /was Re: Acceptance speech ken_aitch Hi Herman, ----------- H: > > If you want to stay true to the tradition, then you would limit > yourself to the following in this discussion. I have left these in > their original language, because clearly you believe authenticity is > important, if not (dia)critical.:-) > > I 'm no good with diacriticals so bear with me. > > The Abhidhamma allows for: > Nama Pannatti > Vijjamana Pannatti > Avijjamana Pannatti > Vijjamana Avijjamana Pannatti > Avijjamanena Vijjamana Pannatti > Vijjamanena Vijjamana Pannatti > Avijjamanena Avijjamana Pannatti > > Attha Pannatti > Santati Pannatti > Samuha Pannatti > Satta Pannatti > Disa Pannatti > Kala Pannatti > Akasa Pannatti > Nimitta Pannatti ----------- Thanks Herman. I won't limit myself to those classifications if you don't mind. :-) But thanks for pointing them out. I haven't seen them before, but I have seen others elsewhere in the Abhidhamma. For example, there are 'concepts that refer to concepts' and there are 'concepts that refer to paramattha dhammas.' I suspect it is a word that can be used in general conversation. For example, The Buddhist Dictionary mentions pannatti sila, which I take to be conceptual (or ideas of) keeping of precepts. The physical act of handing of money to a beggar can be taken as dana, but it is actually pannatti dana. But, getting back to my question: do any of those concepts have a reality in their own right? No, of course they don't. Otherwise, they wouldn't be pannatti - they would be paramattha dhammas. Ken H PS: I am sending this straight away before I get even further behind with my replies to you. I think there are two or three pending. Sorry about that. #68782 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Feb 22, 2007 10:25 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Computer programming /was Re: Acceptance speech upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 2/22/07 11:53:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, ken_aitch@... writes: > H: >No. Such a view would be a contortion aimed explicitly at > supporting personal opinion. > -------------- > > As far as I know, the "view' you are referring to is in strict > accordance with the suttas, the Abhidhamma and the ancient > commentaries. So there is no contorting to be done. > > ======================= The items I listed are not paramattha dhammas, but collections of such. They are only collections, and if thought to be individual actualities, are thought so in error. With metta, Howard #68783 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Feb 22, 2007 10:28 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Computer programming /was Re: Acceptance speech upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 2/22/07 11:53:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, ken_aitch@... writes: > Again: 'as far as I know' there is no mention in any Buddhist text > of "well grounded concepts." Nor is there any mention of "enormously > complex aggregates of interrelated paramattha dhammas." Do the former > have inherent characteristics that other, not so well grounded, > concepts lack? If so, what are those characteristics? > ======================= There is lots of specific terminology not mentioned in the suttas. Computers and email lists aren't mentioned there, Ken - so, must you unsubscribe? The Buddha *does* mention Anathapindika's Park. Is that a paramattha dhamma too? Ken, this is a silly conversation! With metta, Howard #68784 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Feb 22, 2007 10:37 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Computer programming /was Re: Acceptance speech upasaka_howard Hi, Robert (and Ken) - In a message dated 2/23/07 12:35:17 AM Eastern Standard Time, rjkjp1@... writes: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > > >Hi, Ken - > > > >In a message dated 2/22/07 9:29:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, > >ken_aitch@... writes: > > > >>Howard: > Killing living beings, taking what is not given, > >>misconduct in sensual pleasures, false speech, malicious speech, > >>harsh speech, and gossip are all other than paramatta dhammas. > >>------------------- > >> > >>Can you see how they might possibly be paramattha dhammas > (described > >>in conventional language)? > >> > >------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > No. Such a view would be a contortion aimed explicitly at > supporting > >personal opinion. The things I listed are not paramattha dhammas, > but are all > >(well grounded) concepts, enormously complex aggregates of > interelated > >paramattha dhammas, no different in that respect from trees, TV > sets, dhamma lists, > >and people. > > > > ========= > Dear Ken and Howard > http://www.palikanon.com/english/sangaha/chapter_1.htm > > This section descibing types of citta is relevant to your discussion. > ========================= Of course they are relevant, Robert. This speaks of paramattha dhammas underlying conventional events. I, of course, never denied that. I merely maintained that killing living beings, taking what is not given, misconduct in sensual pleasures, false speech, malicious speech, harsh speech, and gossip are conventional activites, and not *themselves* paramattha dhammas. I certainly do still see it exactly that way. But perhaps you weren't implying anything else, and merely showing the definitely relevant paramattha dhammas. With metta, Howard #68785 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Feb 22, 2007 10:43 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A Question to Ask upasaka_howard Hi, TG - In a message dated 2/23/07 12:42:40 AM Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@... writes: > Hi Howard > > > In a message dated 2/22/2007 8:40:56 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, > upasaka@... writes: > > Howard: > That's kind of interesting: a multi-typed realm of phenomena. In your > view, is the mental derivative of the material, or vice-versa, or are both > of > these forms of energy, as you see it, or is there no reductionism > involved? > -------------------------------- > > > TG: I have written before that I do not consider there to be a difference > between nama and rupa other than in their "mode of conditional state." > I.E., > I believe they are interacting and inter-displacing energies. I do not see > > them as "different or separate realities" for example. ------------------------------------- Howard: Okay, gotcha. So, your position, as you said, is one of energism-conditionalism, or something along those lines. But forget the names - I do understand you. ------------------------------------ > > BTW, I very much like your "content of consciousness" as opposed to "object > > of consciousness." A vision of an "object" is most likely to be an > "entity/self" view. ------------------------------------ Howard: Yes! BTW, in case I've never mentioned it, I've benefited from your perspective on the notion of "self" - very much so. ------------------------------------ > > But I believe that conceptualizing the impermanent interactions of external > > phenomena is a legitimate and valuable practice. I would not want to give > up > the POWER of such a practice because of only accepting personal direct > experience. Since the Suttas are replete with "such external examples," I > feel > confident in the legitimacy of this approach. -------------------------------------- Howard: Okay. Actually, I also believe such conceptualizing is useful. ------------------------------------- > > However, when I try to insightfully view external phenomena, I view such in > > terms of "principles of interaction" and not as objects. Then I relate and > > apply those principles to "my" khandas and the interactions between both ... > > "internal and external." There is both conceptualization and direct > experience involved. But I believe all methods involve both anyway. > > > I have provided quotes showing that such involves the ending of perception > >and feeling and consciousness. and feeling and consciousness...and all > > exp > > > >the Suttas, not my own ramblings. > > ---------------------------------------- > Howard: > I know. It's a matter of interpretation, and for every interpretation, > suttas can be found in support of it. It reminds me of the bible! LOL! > -------------------------------------- > > > TG: Yea. To the extent where some Buddhist schools end up desiring for > material goods in the name of Buddhism. Nam yo ho ho ho. ;-) -------------------------------------- Howard" LOL! -------------------------------------- > > Anything else in your post is agreed to. > > TG: > > > > ======================= With metta, Howard #68786 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Feb 23, 2007 6:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] daana corner nilovg Dear Han, I know the sutta. And it is a fact that the fruit of giving to the Buddha , arahats or other enlightened ones renders a greater result. It is a question of kamma that produces result. But, it is because of conditions that we are in the situation of being able to do this. We should not select ourselves with lobha, longing for a lot of merit. No, it is better not to think of persons. Let us pay attention to the kusala citta: is this pure? Not self-seeking, not hoping for something? Example: in Sarnath we give Sangha daana, not to this or that monk personally. We walk in and I do not look, but just kneel down in front of the monk or novice where there happens to be room to kneel. We are with hundred and twenty laypersons and give daana to hundred and twenty monks. It does not make any difference to me whether it is a novice or a monk, a Theravada monk or a Tibetan monk. Last time I was in front of a novice. I did not give any comment on Ven. Bodhi's treatise, but I find that there is something missing. He writes in an excellent style, it is all very logic and complete, and this answers the needs of many. But I miss life, I miss something deeper I find in Kh Sujin's words. Trasvin said: the Thais are not logic. People need logical answers, but these tend to be dry and theoretical. You and Lodewijk expected a logical answer to your questions: you about your house, Lodewijk about several matters concerning person, conventional life. You did not receive a logical answer neither did Lodewijk, he was not satisfied. But a logical answer only helps to a certain extent, it does not help to develop understanding of realities. This is where I also come into concussion (in a friendly way!) with others, this happened very recently. That is why people feel that they go around in circles with me, they do not get any further. Sure, here is a different outlook. Perhaps you can compare the quote from the Perfections and Ven. Bodhi's treatise. There is a difference here in outlook. I have a feeling that this is an important area, worth to consider. Nina. Op 22-feb-2007, om 23:19 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > As regards the recipients, it is a very wide subject, > the main consideration being to give to the worthiest > recipients #68787 From: connie Date: Fri Feb 23, 2007 7:14 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (34) nichiconn dear friends, part one of: Sukkaatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa / The commentary on the verses of Therii Sukkaa [RD: Sukkaa (bright, lustrous, 'Lucy').] Ki.mme kataa raajagaheti-aadikaa sukkaaya theriyaa gaathaa. Ayampi purimabuddhesu kataadhikaaraa tattha tattha bhave viva.t.tuupanissaya.m kusala.m upacinantii vipassissa bhagavato kaale bandhumatiinagare kulagehe nibbattitvaa vi~n~nuta.m pattaa upaasikaahi saddhi.m vihaara.m gantvaa satthu santike dhamma.m sutvaa pa.tiladdhasaddhaa pabbajitvaa bahussutaa dhammadharaa pa.tibhaanavatii ahosi. Saa tattha bahuuni vassasahassaani brahmacariya.m caritvaa puthujjanakaalakiriyameva katvaa tusite nibbatti. Tathaa sikhissa bhagavato, vessabhussa bhagavato kaaleti eva.m ti.n.na.m sammaasambuddhaana.m saasane siila.m rakkhitvaa bahussutaa dhammadharaa ahosi, tathaa kakusandhassa, ko.naagamanassa, kassapassa ca bhagavato saasane pabbajitvaa visuddhasiilaa bahussutaa dhammakathikaa ahosi. Eva.m saa tattha tattha bahu.m pu~n~na.m upacinitvaa sugatiisuyeva sa.msarantii imasmi.m buddhuppaade raajagahanagare gahapatimahaasaalakule nibbatti, sukkaatissaa naama.m ahosi. Saa vi~n~nuta.m pattaa satthu raajagahapavesane laddhappasaadaa upaasikaa hutvaa aparabhaage dhammadinnaaya theriyaa santike dhamma.m sutvaa sa~njaatasa.mvegaa tassaa eva santike pabbajitvaa vipassanaaya kamma.m karontii nacirasseva saha pa.tisambhidaahi arahatta.m paapu.ni. The verses beginnning What has happend to these [men] in Raajagaha? are Therii Sukkaa's. She too performed meritorious deed under previous Buddhas and accumulated good [actions] in various lives as her basis for release. At the time of the Blessed One Vipassii, she was born in the home of a good family. When she came of age, she went to a monastery with women disciples and heard the Doctrine in the presence of the Teacher [the Buddha]. She gained faith, went forth, was one of great learning, expert in the Doctrine, and possessed of intelligence. Similarly, at the time of the Blessed One Sikhii and the Blessed One Vessabhuu, that is to say, under the teaching of three Fully and Perfectly Awakened Ones, she observed virtuous conduct and was one of great learning and expert in the Doctrine. Similarly, she went forth in the teaching of Kakusandha, Ko.naagamana, and Kassapa, and she was of pure virtuous conduct, one of great learning, and one who preached the Doctrine. Thus she accumulated great merit her and there, journeying on in only happy existences. In this Buddha era she was born in the home of a wealthy househoulder in the town of Raajagaha. She was named Sukkaa. When she came of age she obtained faith when the Teacher entered Raajagaha and became a lay follower. Afterwards, she heard the Doctrine in the presence of Therii Dhammadinnaa. A profound stirring arose in her, she went forth in the presence [of Therii Dhammadinnaa], devoted herself to the gaining of insight, and after a very short time attained the state of Arahatship together with the [four] discriminations. [Dhammadinnaa - Ps. xii. (RD)] Tena vutta.m apadaane (apa. therii 2.4.111-142)- "Ekanavutito kappe, vipassii naama naayako; uppajji caarudassano, sabbadhammavipassako. "Tadaaha.m bandhumatiya.m, jaataa a~n~natare kule; dhamma.m sutvaana munino, pabbaji.m anagaariya.m. "Bahussutaa dhammadharaa, pa.tibhaanavatii tathaa; vicittakathikaa caapi, jinasaasanakaarikaa. "Tadaa dhammakatha.m katvaa, hitaaya janata.m bahu.m; tato cutaaha.m tusita.m, upapannaa yasassinii. "Ekatti.mse ito kappe, sikhii viya sikhii jino; tapanto yasasaa loke, uppajji vadata.m varo. As is said in the Apadaana: Ninety-one aeons ago, there was a leader named Vipassii who was born, pleasant to behold, clearly seeing all phenomena. At that time, I was born in a certain family in Bandhumatii. I heard the Doctrine of the Sage and went forth to the homeless state. [I was] one of great learning, expert in the Doctrine, and possessed of intelligence. Thus I was eloquent and was accomplished in the teaching of the Conqueror. Then I gave a talk on the Doctrine for the great benefit of the people. Then I was renowned when I died, and I was reborn in the Tusita [realm]. Thirty-one aeons ago, like a fire (sikhii) burning with flame, the Conqueror Sikhii, Best of Speakers, was born in the world. "Tadaapi pabbajitvaana, buddhasaasanakovidaa; jotetvaa jinavaakyaani, tatopi tidiva.m gataa. "Ekatti.mseva kappamhi, vessabhuu naama naayako; uppajjittha mahaa~naa.nii, tadaapi ca tathevaha.m. "Pabbajitvaa dhammadharaa, jotayi.m jinasaasana.m; gantvaa marupura.m ramma.m, anubhosi.m mahaasukha.m. "Imamhi bhaddake kappe, kakusandho jinuttamo; uppajji narasara.no, tadaapi ca tathevaha.m. "Pabbajitvaa munimata.m, jotayitvaa yathaayuka.m; tato cutaaha.m tidiva.m, aga.m sabhavana.m yathaa. Then, I went forth, was expert in the teachings of the Buddha, causing the utterances of the Conqueror to shine forth. And after that, I went to the Tidiva [realm]. Thirty-one aeons ago, the leader Vessabhuu of great knowledge was born. And in the same way, I [was] also [born] at that time. I went forth, was expert in the Doctrine and illumined the teaching of the Conqueror. I went to the delightful city of Maruu and enjoyed great happiness. In this auspicious aeon, the Best of Conquerors was born, a Refuge for Men. And in the same way, I [was] also [born] at that time. I went forth and illuminated the thought of the Sage for my lifetime. After that, I died and was reborn in the Tidiva [realm] as though it were my home. "Imasmi.myeva kappamhi, ko.naagamananaayako; uppajji lokasara.no, ara.no amata"ngato. "Tadaapi pabbajitvaana, saasane tassa taadino; bahussutaa dhammadharaa, jotayi.m jinasaasana.m. "Imasmi.myeva kappamhi, kassapo munimuttamo; uppajji lokasara.no, ara.no mara.nantaguu. "Tassaapi naraviirassa, pabbajitvaana saasane; pariyaapu.tasaddhammaa, paripucchaa visaaradaa. "Susiilaa lajjinii ceva, tiisu sikkhaasu kovidaa; bahu.m dhammakatha.m katvaa, yaavajiiva.m mahaamune. In this very aeon, the Leader Ko.naagamana was born, the Refuge of the World, free from passion, having arrived at the undying. Then, too, I went forth in the teaching of that outstanding one, [and I was] one of great learning, expert in the Doctrine, and illuminated the teaching of the Conqueror. And in this aeon, Kassapa, the Best of Sages, was born, a refuge for the world, free from passion, having overcome death. I also went forth in the teaching of that Hero of the People and I was accomplished in the true Doctrine and skilled in questioning. I was very virtuous and modest. I was skilled in the three trainings. I gave many talks on the Doctrine as long as my life lasted, O Great Sage. "Tena kammavipaakena, cetanaapa.nidhiihi ca; jahitvaa maanusa.m deha.m, taavati.msamagacchaha.m. "Pacchime ca bhave daani, giribbajapuruttame; jaataa se.t.thikule phiite, mahaaratanasa~ncaye. "Yadaa bhikkhusahassena, parivuto lokanaayako; upaagami raajagaha.m, sahassakkhena va.n.nito. "Danto dantehi saha puraa.naja.tilehi, vippamutto vippamuttehi; si"ngiinikkhasava.n.no, raajagaha.m paavisi bhagavaa. "Disvaa buddhaanubhaava.m ta.m, sutvaava gu.nasa~ncaya.m; buddhe citta.m pasaadetvaa, puujayi.m ta.m yathaabala.m. As a result of those deeds and of my resolve and purpose, when I abandoned my human body, I went to the Taavati.msa realm. And now, in my last life, I was born in the magnificent town of Giribbaja [ie, Raajagaha] in the prosperous family of a wealthy merchant possessing a great mass of jewels. When the Leader of the World, surrounded by a thousand bhikkhus, arrived at Raajagaha, he was praised by one of a thousand eyes pie, Sakka]: "The Tamed together with the tamed, the Completely Freed with the completely freed, the Blessed One entered Raajagaha with the former matted-hair ascetics looking like a ring of gold [around him]." Having seen the power of the Buddha, having heard of Him Who Possesses a Great Mass of Virtues, I had faith in the Buddha, and I honoured him as much as I could. === to be continued, connie. #68788 From: connie Date: Fri Feb 23, 2007 7:18 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (34) nichiconn dear friends, part two of Sukkaa's story and verse: "Aparena ca kaalena, dhammadinnaaya santike; agaaraa nikkhamitvaana, pabbaji.m anagaariya.m. "Kesesu chijjamaanesu, kilese jhaapayi.m aha.m; uggahi.m saasana.m sabba.m, pabbajitvaa cirenaha.m. "Tato dhammamadesesi.m, mahaajanasamaagame; dhamme desiyamaanamhi, dhammaabhisamayo ahu. "Nekapaa.nasahassaana.m, ta.m viditvaativimhito; abhippasanno me yakkho, bhamitvaana giribbaja.m. "Ki.mme kataa raajagahe manussaa, madhu.m piitaava acchare; ye sukka.m na upaasanti, desenti.m amata.m pada.m. And some time later, I departed from my house and went forth to the homeless state in the presence of Dhammadinnaa. While my hair was being cut off, I destroyed my defilements. I embraced all the teachings, having gone forth so soon. Then I taught the Doctrine to a great assembly of people. As the Doctrine was being taught, many thousands of living beings comprehended the Doctrine. Seeing that, a yakkha was amazed, and having faith in me, he roamed about Girbbaja [saying:} "Ta~nca appa.tivaaniiya.m, asecanakamojava.m; pivanti ma~n~ne sappa~n~naa, valaahakamivaddhaguu. "Iddhiisu ca vasii homi, dibbaaya sotadhaatuyaa; cetopariya~naa.nassa, vasii homi mahaamune. "Pubbenivaasa.m jaanaami, dibbacakkhu visodhita.m; sabbaasavaparikkhii.naa, natthi daani punabbhavo. "Atthadhammaniruttiisu, pa.tibhaane tatheva ca; ~naa.na.m mama mahaaviira, uppanna.m tava santike. "What has happened to these men in Raajagaha? They remain as though they have drunk wine. The do not attend upon Sukkaa when she is preaching the state of undying. "But the wise drink it [the teaching], I think, which is not repellent, never causing surfeit, of sweet flavour, as travellers drink a rain cloud." And I have mastery of the supernormal powers. By means of the divine ear element I have mastery of the knowledge of penetration of minds, O Great Seer. I know my previous lives, my divine eye has been purified. All my taints are consumed. Now there is no renewed existence. And truly, O Great Hero, in your presence, knowledge has arisen in me of comprehension of meaning, states, and language. "Kilesaa jhaapitaa mayha.m {, bhavaa sabbe samuuhataa; naagiiva bandhana.m chetvaa, viharaami anaasavaa. "Svaagata.m vata me aasi, buddhase.t.thassa santike; tisso vijjaa anuppattaa, kata.m buddhassa saasana.m. "Pa.tisambhidaa catasso, vimokkhaapi ca a.t.thime; cha.labhi~n~naa sacchikataa,} kata.m buddhassa saasanan"ti. My defilements are burnt out, {all [future] births are completely destroyed. Having severed my bonds like an elephant, I live without taints. Welcome indeed was the presence of the Best of Buddhas to me. I have attained the three true knowledges. I have done the Buddha's teaching. The four discriminations and also the eight liberations are mine. I have realized the six direct knowledges.} I have done the Buddha's teaching. arahatta.m pana patvaa pa~ncasatabhikkhuniparivaaraa mahaadhammakathikaa ahosi; saa ekadivasa.m raajagahe pi.n.daaya caritvaa katabhattakiccaa bhikkhunupassaya.m pavisitvaa sannisinnaaya mahatiyaa parisaaya madhubha.n.da.m pii.letvaa sumadhura.m paayentii viya amatena abhisi~ncantii viya dhamma.m deseti; parisaa cassaa dhammakatha.m ohitasotaa avikkhittacittaa sakkacca.m su.naati; tasmi.m kha.ne theriyaa ca"nkamanako.tiya.m rukkhe adhivatthaa devataa dhammadesanaaya pasannaa raajagaha.m pavisitvaa rathiyaaya rathiya.m si"nghaa.takena si"nghaa.taka.m vicaritvaa tassaa gu.na.m vibhaaventii- 54. "ki.mme kataa raajagahe manussaa, madhu.m piitaava acchare; ye sukka.m na upaasanti, desenti.m buddhasaasana.m. 55. "Ta~nca appa.tivaaniiya.m, asecanakamojava.m; pivanti ma~n~ne sappa~n~naa, valaahakamivaddhaguu"ti.- Imaa dve gaathaa abhaasi. Now having attained Arahatship, she had an entourage of five hundred bhikkhuniis and was a great teacher of the Doctrine. One day, she went on her alms round in Raajagaha, had her meal, and entered the bhikkhuniis' monastery. Sitting down with a very large assembly, she taught the Doctrine as though she was sprinkling them with the undying, as though, after pressing a honeycomb, she made them drink the very sweet [drink]. And that assembly carefully listened to her talk on the Doctrine with attentive ears, with their minds not distracted. At that moment, as the therii was giving the discourse on the Doctrine, a devataa who inhabited a tree at the end of the walkway became favourable disposed towards her and entered Raajagaha and went from street to street, from crossroad to crossroad, making her merit will known, saying these two verses: 54. What has happened to these men in Raajagaha? They remain as though they have drunk wine. They do not attend upon Sukkaa when she is preaching the Buddha's teaching. 55. But the wise drink it [the teaching], I think, which is not repellent, never causing surfeit, of sweet flavour, as travellers drink a rain cloud. [RD: What would ye men of Raajagaha have? What have ye done? that mute and idle here Ye lie about, as if bemused with wine, Nor wait upon Sukkaa, while she reveals The precious gospel by the Buddha taught. (54) The wise in heart, methinks, were fain to quaff That life's elixir, once won never lost, That welleth ever up in her sweet words, E'en as the wayfarer welcomes the rain. (55) *167 The word for spirit, -devataa, lit. deity, is feminine, as are all abstract nouns in -taa; but whether tree-spirits were more usually conceived of a male or female, or as sexless, is not clear. Cf. the plates in Cunningham's Bharhut, and, on tree-spirits generally, chaps. ii. and iii. in Mrs. Philpot's The Sacred Tree. See also Appendix. ] {http://digital.library.upenn.edu/women/davids/psalms/psalms.html} Tattha ki.mme kataa raajagahe manussaati ime raajagahe manussaa ki.m kataa, kismi.m naama kicce byaava.taa. Madhu.m piitaava acchareti yathaa bha.n.damadhu.m gahetvaa madhu.m piitavanto visa~n~nino hutvaa siisa.m ukkhipitu.m na sakkonti eva.m imepi dhammasa~n~naaya visa~n~nino hutvaa ma~n~ne siisa.m ukkhipitu.m na sakkonti, kevala.m acchantiyevaati attho. Ye sukka.m na upaasanti, desenti.m buddhasaasananti buddhassa bhagavato saasana.m yaathaavato desenti.m pakaasenti.m sukka.m theri.m ye na upaasanti na payirupaasanti. Te ime raajagahe manussaa ki.m kataati yojanaa. 54. There, What has happened to these men in Raajagaha? (ki.m'me kataa Raajagahe manussaa) means: what has been done to these men in Raajagaha (ime Raajagahe manussaa ki.m kataa)? What indeed is the business they are engaged in? They remain as though they have drunk (pii.taa) wine (madhu.m) means: like taking a honeycomb (bha.n.da-madhu.m), drinking the honey [wine] (madhu.m), and becoming senseless, not able to lift their heads, thus they have become senseless to awareness of the Doctrine and arenot able to life their heads, I think. They only remain sitting there. That is the meaning. They do not attend upon (na upaasanti) Sukkaa when she is preaching (desenti.m) the Buddha's teaching (Buddha-saasana.m) means: whoever does not attend upon, does not sit around (na payirupaasanti) Therii Sukka, who is duly preaching, explaining (pakaasenti.m) the teaching of the Blessed One, the Buddha (Buddhassa bhagavato saasana.m). This is the connection with What has happened to these men in Raajagaha? Ta~nca appa.tivaaniiyanti ta~nca pana dhamma.m anivattitabhaavaavaha.m niyyaanika.m, abhikkantataaya vaa yathaa sotujanasavanamanoharabhaavena anapaniiya.m, asecanaka.m anaasittaka.m pakatiyaava mahaarasa.m tato eva ojavanta.m. "Osadhan"tipi paa.li. Va.t.tadukkhabyaadhitikicchaaya osadhabhuuta.m. Pivanti ma~n~ne sappa~n~naa, valaahakamivaddhaguuti valaahakantarato nikkhanta.m udaka.m nirudakakantaare pathagaa viya ta.m dhamma.m sappa~n~naa pa.n.ditapurisaa pivanti ma~n~ne pivantaa viya su.nanti. Manussaa ta.m sutvaa pasannamaanasaa theriyaa santika.m upasa"nkamitvaa sakkacca.m dhamma.m su.ni.msu. Aparabhaage theriyaa aayupariyosaane parinibbaanakaale saasanassa niyyaanikabhaavavibhaavanattha.m a~n~na.m byaakarontii- 56. "Sukkaa sukkehi dhammehi, viitaraagaa samaahitaa; dhaareti antima.m deha.m, jetvaa maara.m savaahanan"ti.- Ima.m gaatha.m abhaasi. Tattha sukkaati sukkaatherii attaanameva para.m viya dasseti. Sukkehi dhammehiiti suparisuddhehi lokuttaradhammehi. Viitaraagaa samaahitaati aggamaggena sabbaso viitaraagaa arahattaphalasamaadhinaa samaahitaa. Sesa.m vuttanayameva. Sukkaatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa ni.t.thitaa. 55. But (ca) ... it [the teaching] (ta~n) ... which is not repellent (appa.tivaaniya.m) means: but it, on the contrary (pana), the Doctrine produces the state of not turning back [to renewed existence] (anivattaniiya-bhaavaavaha.m), [and produces] the advancing to leading out [from renewed existence] (niyyaanika.m abhikkantataaya). Or, it is not to be ignored (anapaniiya.m) because of its nature of delighting the ears of people who listen. Never causing surfeit (asencanaka.m) [means:] by nature it needs nothing added to it, like a wonderful flavour, and as a result it is of sweet flavour. There is also a canonical reading: a medicinal herb (osadha.m) - of the nature of a medicine (osadha-bhuuta.m) through the desire to heal the disease and suffering of continued existence. But the wise [sappa~n~naa] drink [it], I think, as travellers (addhaguu) [drink] a rain cloud (valaahakam) means: the wise, wise men (pa.n.dita-purisaa), drink in that Doctrine, I think, like travellers in an arid wilderness [drink in] water coming from within a rain cloud (valaahak'-antarato). They listen to it as though they were drinking the Doctrine after approaching the therii with their minds favourably disposed towards her. Afterwards, at the end of the therii's life, at the time of her final quenching, she explained her perfect knowledge in order to make known the leading out [from continued existence] of the teachings: 56. You are Sukkaa because of your bright (sukka) mental states, [being] rid of desire, concentrated. Bear your last body, having conquered Maara and his mount. [RD: O Child of light! *168 by light of truth set free From cravings dire, firm, self-possessed, serene, Bear to this end thy last incarnate frame, For thou hast conquered Mara and his host. (56) *168 Sukkaa. ] 56. There, Sukkaa means: Therii Sukkaa indicates herself as though she were someone else. Bright (sukkehi) mental states (dhammehi) means: very pure (suparisuddhehi) supramundane mental states (lokuttara-dhammehi). Rid of desire, concentrated (samaahitaa) means: rid of desire altogether through the highest path, concentrated through the concentration of the fruition state of Arahatship. The meaning of the rest has been explained. Here ends the commentary on the verses by Therii Sukkaa. === connie. #68789 From: "m. nease" Date: Fri Feb 23, 2007 8:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A final venting from phil, probably. m_nease Hi Sarah, Robert and Phil, > S: I think it's one thing (as you honestly indicate here) to look for > quiet 'secluded' spots out of pure attachment - we do it all the time! > > One might also look for such spots for a particular purpose. For example, > a friend of ours moved into a caravan far from home for a long period to > write a book. It may also be for one's dhamma studies or a cheap way of > being able to stay in Thailand or Burma. Lodewijk was talking in Thailand > about how he and Nina used to stay in Benedictine monasteries (before they > had an interest in Buddhism). It's fine if one likes to do so and doesn't > have an illusion about such seclusion in itself being better for the > development of satipatthana. Well, of course that IS why I went to Thailand and Burma--at the time I thought the proper approach was to ordain, get the bhikkhu's rules down pat and cultivate jhaana as a base for (or in tandem with) insight. Of course now I don't see it that way. > But Phil was talking about looking for such seclusion as a way to develop > more understanding of present realities, like using a microscope. This is > where we go wrong, I believe - when there's an idea of a better time, a > different time from right now. > > He wrote: > > P:>"But seeking elements of that seclusion by getting up very early > before even the mice are stirring, sitting in a quiet room, going to > a hut I've found in a woody hillside park near my place to meditate, > using earplugs, closing one's eyes...those forms are increasing > elements of seclusion are very helpful. I'm actually kind of amazed > that any former meditators don't sometimes have a go at it and see > for themselves. What is a suitable metaphor? A microscope? A > stethoscope? Being able to see processes of the mind in a way that > one wouldn't in less secluded conditions."< Of course I can't comment on Phil's experience but we obviously have a very different take on these things. > M:> Now, Rose and I play cribbage and chess every day. The same > (different) > > dhammas arise and subside as did in the temples. > .... > S: Exactly so. I would just say the same kind of dhammas - seeing, visible > object, attachment, thinking.....still just 6 doorways! Yes, I think that's a better way of putting it. When i wrote 'same' I meant the same elements, factors and so on and by 'different' I just meant that each occurence is new and unique. Rob, it was presumptuous of me to refer to 'our shared attachment' to the zendo--of course I wouldn't know your mind in this (or any) regard. mike #68790 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Feb 23, 2007 10:27 am Subject: Rupas. Introduction, 1. nilovg Dear friends, Introduction The Abhidhamma teaches us that in the ultimate sense our life is nåma and rúpa that arise because of their appropriate conditions and then fall away. What we take for person or self is citta 1 or consciousness, cetasika 2 or mental factors arising with the citta, and rúpa or physical phenomena. Citta and cetasika are nåma, they experience objects, whereas rúpa does not know anything. Citta experiences sense objects through the five senses. The sense objects as well as the sense organs are rúpas. The five senses by means of which cittas experience an object are called doors. When we think of something we saw or heard citta does not experience an object through a sense-door but through another door: the mind-door. Thus there are six doorways. Through the mind-door citta can experience ultimate realities, nåma and rúpa, as well as concepts. Citta experiences only one object and then it falls away to be succeeded by the next citta. We may have thought that there is one consciousness that lasts, that can see, hear and think, but this is not so. There can be only one citta at a time: at one moment there is a citta that sees, at another moment a citta that hears and at another moment again a citta that thinks. In our life there is an unbroken series of cittas arising in succession. Cittas can be good or wholesome, kusala cittas, they can be unwholesome, akusala cittas, or they can be neither kusala nor akusala. Seeing, for example, is neither kusala nor akusala, it only experiences visible object through the eye-door. After seeing has fallen away, visible object is experienced by kusala cittas or by akusala cittas. Thus, when an object impinges on one of the six doors there are different types of cittas arising in a series or process and all of them experience that object. They arise in a specific order within the process and there is no self who can prevent their arising. There are processes of cittas experiencing an object through each of the five sense-doors and through the mind-door. There is one citta at a time, but each citta is accompanied by several cetasikas or mental factors that share the same object with the citta but perform each their own function. Some cetasikas such as feeling and remembrance or “perception” (saññå) accompany each citta, others do not. Unwholesome mental factors, akusala cetasikas, only accompany akusala cittas, whereas “beautiful” mental factors (sobhana) cetasikas accompany kusala cittas. ****** Nina. #68791 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Feb 23, 2007 10:39 am Subject: Letters on Vipassana 8, no 6. nilovg Dear friends, Someone wrote that one should try to have as much kusala as one can. There is likely to be an idea of self who is trying and then one will certainly fail. The same person was in a meditation center and he was hoping that he, in that place, could have more mettå. However, he noticed that he could not. It shows that realities are beyond control, anattå. It can be discouraging to see how little mettå there is in a day. We used to take for mettå what is only attachment. We were inclined to be kind to particular people only, not just to anybody we met. But it is helpful to realize that often attachment and conceit hinder mettå. We should consider all kinds of kusala and akusala which arise in the situation of our daily life. You said that you used to separate your meditation life from daily life, but, as you know now, that is not the Middle Way. When we would just be sitting in a quiet room how could we know ourselves as we are in our daily life, in our work situation, in our relationship with others? We should be truthful and we should not pretend, even to ourselves, to be better than we really are. The word meditation can create confusion. People associate meditation with going apart and trying to concentrate on something special. If one wants to cultivate calm to the degree of jhåna one has to live a secluded life and one has to use a meditation subject of samatha in order to make calm grow. For the development of vipassanå one does not need to go apart. One should develop it naturally, in daily life. One should come to know one's real accumulations, one's defilements. If one does not develop understanding of whatever reality appears paññå cannot grow. You asked what the difference is between paññå in samatha and paññå in vipassanå. The aim and the method of samatha and of vipassana are different. As regards samatha, even people before the Buddha's time saw the danger of sense impressions. They realized that seeing, hearing and the other sense impressions are often followed by defilements. Therefore, they used subjects of meditation in order to reach jhåna, because at the moment of jhåna-citta there cannot be any sense impressions. By means of jhåna defilements are temporarily subdued but not eradicated. The aim of vipassanå is the eradication of defilements through the wisdom which knows all realities as they are. The object of vipassanå is the nåma or rúpa which appears right now. The object is not a person, a body or another concept, it is a paramattha dhamma, a nåma or a rúpa. The meditation subjects of samatha are concepts. ******** Nina. #68792 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Fri Feb 23, 2007 1:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Music and Lyrics egberdina Hi RobK, >But there can > also be direct experience of the sounds that are contacting the > sensitive matter in the ear. It seems to me that "direct experience" can be all things to all practitioners. The above, to me, is a mixture of description of experience and explanation of experience. In my experience, sound is experience(d), sounds (as in a sequence of units of sound) aren't, contact isn't, neither is sensitive matter or ears. If all of the above are "directly experienced", then that leaves me thinking that for you direct experience includes a lot of thinking. Kind Regards Herman #68793 From: "m. nease" Date: Fri Feb 23, 2007 1:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Attasañña m_nease Hi Khun Siw, I'm very glad for us all that you're contributing to the list. I hope continued correspondence won't be a burden to you and that, if it is, you'll feel free to bow out. > I am afraid that you are asking the wrong person. > I don't know Pali. I used the term according to > how I heard it in Thai. At one time, Than Achan > asked me how was my business trip. I replied that > for the past 7 days I was in China, kukkucca > (worried about the previous akusala-kamma and > about to-be-done kusala-kamma) arose all the > time. She said [my problem] caused from > attasañña, the memory of me-mine over and over. > After that, kukucca happen less frequently. Very interesting. The reason I asked is that I'm not really familiar with the term and I think it might be what some of us mean when we refer to attadiììhi. > The subject in all books, even the subject is > about Dhamma, is the produce of sañña. It is not > paramattha dhamma. That is what I understand. Agreed-- > Even though the Nyanatiloka Buddhist Dictionary, > provided a definition to atta-dhitthi similar to > attasañña, I am not sure that it uses in the same > context as I never heard anyone use the word. I > understand that sañña is something like habit. > You might not like the habit and want to get rid > of it but it keeps coming back. Dhitthi is what > you believe in. This makes sense and is an interesting angle on sañña. > Anyway, I will pass your question to three Pali > scholar I am associated with, as well as a > resource person at the Foundation. > > Thanks for asking. I am learning something too. Thank you very much! I look forward to hearing from your contacts. mike #68794 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Fri Feb 23, 2007 1:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Acceptance speech egberdina Hi Sarah, Thanks for your clarification. On 21/02/07, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Herman, > > > 1. I didn't quite agree with you as you suggest. > Cool :-) > 8. When we say that there can be sati (of satipatthana) at any time, it > means that even whilst conceiving a woman, conceiving rules, seeing, > hearing and so on, there are realities which can instantly be the object > of awareness, slipping in immediately and taking the conceiving, seeing, > hearing or other reality as object - i.e any nama or rupa. If I can just paraphrase that, and ask you a question about that. When seeing a woman, there is seeing a woman. When reflecting on (seeing a woman), there is reflecting on (seeing a woman). In the first instance, the woman is the object, in the second, seeing her is the object. Just to make sure I understand you correctly, could you tell me which instance is sati by your reckoning? Kind Regards Herman #68795 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Fri Feb 23, 2007 1:40 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Where does Anger start from? egberdina Hi Nitesh, On 21/02/07, kanchaa wrote: > Dear All, > > Hello! > > I was curious today about Anger.... Can anyone explain where does > anger start and where does it end?? What is its role in a life? > Anger is an emotion. Emotion carries with it the meaning of moving. The role of emotions is to bring about a change in the world, to make it how we want. We display our anger to beings in an effort to get them to do something (else), or to stop doing something. Kind Regards Herman #68796 From: han tun Date: Fri Feb 23, 2007 1:38 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] daana corner hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much for your excellent post. I love every word of it. I agree with you completely that we should not select ourselves with lobha, longing for a lot of merit, and that it is better not to think of persons. Actually, we are taught in the same way: that when we offer something to a monk or monks, we should not offer it to a particular monk (a sayadaw or a novice), but we should offer it to the Sangha as a whole – sanghika daana. It is exactly like the example you had given: “in Sarnath we give Sangha daana, not to this or that monk personally. We walk in and I do not look, but just kneel down in front of the monk or novice where there happens to be room to kneel. We are with hundred and twenty laypersons and give daana to hundred and twenty monks. It does not make any difference to me whether it is a novice or a monk, a Theravada monk or a Tibetan monk. Last time I was in front of a novice.” As suggested by you, I will try to compare the quote from the Perfections and Ven. Bodhi's treatise to see the difference in outlook. You may be right to say that I and Lodewijk are looking for logical answers in conventional terms. Maybe, our mental outlook is tuned in that way. Maybe, we cannot help ourselves to develop understanding of realities. But I will not come into concussion (in a friendly way!) with you or any other (:-). Can I tell you an anecdote? In Burma we used to say (as a joke) to keep your sword ready in dhamma discussions. Here, there is a play of words. In Burmese language, dhamma is dhamma, and the sword is dhaama. Speaking quickly the two words sound almost the same. So if you cannot win your argument on dhamma hit your opponent with the dhaama. (But please don’t actually do it! Anyway, one is safe on internet because we are not sitting face to face! (:-)) Respectfully, Han --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > We should not select ourselves with lobha, longing > for a lot of merit. > No, it is better not to think of persons. #68797 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Fri Feb 23, 2007 1:48 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A cremation, just like now! egberdina Hi Sarah, Could I ask you for clarification? > .... > S: Exactly so! Understanding of dhammas such as seeing and hearing leads > to less thought and concern for oneself, not more. When there's less > concern for oneself, there is more kindness to others. As Ken H said, an > appreciation of anatta leads to more compassion, not less. > ... You say here that seeing and hearing are dhammas. Perhaps I am only being nitpicky, which I am happy for you to tell me if you think it is the case, but isn't it seeing this visible object, or hearing that audible object that is a dhamma. There is never just hearing, or just seeing, no hearing in general, or seeing in general, it is always seeing or hearing something specific. Kind Regards Herman #68798 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Fri Feb 23, 2007 1:53 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] daana corner egberdina Hi Han, On 24/02/07, han tun wrote: > Dear Nina, > > Thank you very much for your excellent post. I love > every word of it. > > I agree with you completely that we should not select > ourselves with lobha, longing for a lot of merit, and > that it is better not to think of persons. Actually, > we are taught in the same way: that when we offer > something to a monk or monks, we should not offer it > to a particular monk (a sayadaw or a novice), but we > should offer it to the Sangha as a whole – sanghika > daana. > You agree with Nina that you shouldn't select the recipient of your dana, and I agree too :-) But surely, giving to monks, any monk, is also selection. How many needy people does one walk past and ignore to get to the temple? Kind Regards Herman #68799 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Fri Feb 23, 2007 2:03 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A final venting from phil, probably. egberdina Hi Mike, > > > On 19/02/07, m. nease wrote: > > > > > > Now, Rose and I play cribbage and chess every day. The same > (different) > > > dhammas arise and subside as did in the temples. > > > Is this profundity? Or gibberish? > > It wasn't meant to be the former and doesn't meet the dictionary > definition of the latter, I don't think. This strikes me, by the way, > as a false dilemma and a compound question. > I didn't mean to imply that my questions covered all possibilities. > > Are Rose dhammas same or different to cribbage dhammas to chess > > dhammas to temple dhammas? > > I don't understand the question. Dhammas, naamaa and ruupaa, are what > in the aggregate are mistakenly taken for people, games, buildings > etc. (pa.n.natti) by my understanding of the texts. > I don't think that I am able to explain further or better, but to me to say that everything is an instance of a category is completely meaningless. > > Kind Regards > > Really? The tone of your message didn't sound 'kind' in the least. > We obviously have different definitions of what it means to be meaningful or kind. And perhaps I look more for meaningful communication, and you look more for kind communication. I'm sorry I didn't sound kind to you :-) Kind Regards Herman