#69200 From: connie Date: Mon Mar 5, 2007 8:05 am Subject: Re: Q Rupas, Ch 1, no 2 nichiconn Hi TG: TG: The issue was not whether plants were "living beings." The issue was whether they were alive at all. Nina believes plants are not alive. Do you as well? C: Yes, that is my belief (or non-belief, if you prefer). There are none of the nine rupas originating from kamma there, therefore, they are not living. No jiivitindriya ruupa to narrow it down. I fail to see the distinction you're making between a living being and a thing being alive, btw. peace, connie #69201 From: connie Date: Mon Mar 5, 2007 8:04 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (40) nichiconn Dear Friends, Siihaatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa / The commentary on the verses of Therii Siihaa Ayoniso manasikaaraati-aadikaa siihaaya theriyaa gaathaa Ayampi purimabuddhesu kataadhikaaraa tattha tattha bhave viva.t.tuupanissaya.m kusala.m upacinitvaa imasmi.m buddhuppaade vesaaliya.m siihasenaapatino bhaginiyaa dhiitaa hutvaa nibbatti. Tassaa "maatulassa naama.m karomaa"ti siihaati naama.m aka.msu. The verses beginning [Afflicted by desire ...,] because of unreasoned thinking are Therii Siihaa's. She too performed meritorious deeds under previous Buddhas and acumulated good [actions] in various lives as [her] basis for release. In this Buddha era, she was born in Vesaalii as the daughter of the sister of General Siiha. Thinking, "Let us use the name of her uncle," they named her Siihaa. {RD refers us to SBE Vinaya Texts, ii 108ff on Siiha, General of the Licchavis; see www.sacred-texts.com/bud/sbe17/sbe17045.htm} Saa vi~n~nuta.m patvaa ekadivasa.m satthaaraa siihassa senaapatino dhamme desiyamaane ta.m dhamma.m sutvaa pa.tiladdhasaddhaa maataapitaro anujaanaapetvaa pabbaji. Pabbajitvaa ca vipassana.m aarabhitvaapi bahiddhaa puthuttaaramma.ne vidhaavanta.m citta.m nivattetu.m asakkontii satta sa.mvaccharaani micchaavitakkehi baadhiiyamaanaa cittassaada.m alabhantii "ki.m me iminaa paapajiivitena ubbandhitvaa marissaamii"ti paasa.m gahetvaa rukkhasaakhaaya.m laggitvaa ta.m attano ka.n.the pa.timu~ncantii pubbaaci.n.navasena vipassanaaya citta.m abhiniihari, antimabhavikataaya paasassa bandhana.m giiva.t.thaane ahosi, ~naa.nassa paripaaka.m gatattaa saa taavadeva vipassana.m va.d.dhetvaa saha pa.tisambhidaahi arahatta.m paapu.ni. Arahatta.m pattasamakaalameva ca paasabandho giivato muccitvaa vinivatti. After coming of age, one day, as the Doctrine was being taught to General Siiha by the Teacher, she heard that Doctrine. She gained faith, obtained permission from her parents and went forth. And having gone forth, although she began insight, she was not able to turn her mind back when it strayed externally to various bases. For seven years she was oppressed by wrong thoughts, not obtaining mental satisfaction. "What is this evil life to me?" she thought. "I shall hang [myself] and die." She took a noose, hung it from the branch of a tree and tied it around her own neck. Because of her former practice, she applied her mind to insight. Because she was in her last birth, with the bond of the noose around her neck, she brought to maturity her knowledge, and she immediately increased her insight and attained Arahatship together with the [four] discriminations. And at the same time she attained Arahatship, the noose was released from her neck and fell off. Saa arahatte pati.t.thitaa udaanavasena- 77. "Ayoniso manasikaaraa, kaamaraagena a.t.titaa; ahosi.m uddhataa pubbe, citte avasavattinii. 78. "Pariyu.t.thitaa klesehi, subhasa~n~naanuvattinii; sama.m cittassa na labhi.m, raagacittavasaanugaa. 79. "Kisaa pa.n.du viva.n.naa ca, satta vassaani caariha.m; naaha.m divaa vaa ratti.m vaa, sukha.m vindi.m sudukkhitaa. 80. "Tato rajju.m gahetvaana, paavisi.m vanamantara.m; vara.m me idha ubbandha.m, ya~nca hiina.m punaacare. 81. "Da.lhapaasa.m karitvaana, rukkhasaakhaaya bandhiya; pakkhipi.m paasa.m giivaaya.m, atha citta.m vimucci me"ti.- Imaa gaathaa abhaasi. Established in Arahatship, she spoke these verses as a solemn utterance: 77. Afflicted by desire for sensual pleasures, because of unreasoned thinking, previously I was conceited, being without self-mastery over the mind. 78. Obsessed by the defilements, giving way to the notion of happiness, I did not obtain peace of mind, being under the influence of thoughts of passion. 79. Thin, pale, and wan, I wandered for seven years. [Being] very pained, I did not find happiness by day or night. 80. Then taking a rope, I went into a wood, [thinking,] "It is better to hang myself than to lead a low life again." 81. I made a strong noose and tied it to the branch of a tree. I cast the noose around my neck. Then my mind was completely released. RD: Distracted, harassed by desires of sense, Unmindful of the 'what' and 'why' of things, *199 Stung and inflated by the memories Of former days, o'er which I lacked control - (77) Corrupting canker spreading o'er my heart - I followed heedless dreams of happiness, And got no even tenour to my mind, All given o'er to dalliance with sense. (78) So did I fare for seven weary years, In lean and sallow mis'ry of unrest. I, wretched, found no ease by day or night, (79) So took a rope and plunged into the wood: 'Better for me a friendly gallows-tree! I'll live again the low life of the world.' (80) Strong was the noose I made; and on a bough I bound the rope and flung it round my neck, When see! . . . my heart was set at liberty! (81) *199 Ayoniso-manasikaaraa, lit., 'from not attending to cause or source.' Tattha ayoniso manasikaaraati anupaayamanasikaarena, asubhe subhanti vipallaasaggaahena. Kaamaraagena a.t.titaati kaamagu.nesu chandaraagena pii.litaa. Ahosi.m uddhataa pubbe, citte avasavattiniiti pubbe mama citte mayha.m vase avattamaane uddhataa naanaaramma.ne vikkhittacittaa asamaahitaa ahosi.m. 77. There, because of unreasoned thinking (ayoniso manasikaaraa) means: thinking something is happiness when it is unpleasant because of the wrong application of one's thought (anupaaya-manasikaarena), through being in the grip of an hallucination. Afflicted by desire for sensual pleasures (kaama-raagena) means: oppressed by passion and desire (chanda-raagena) through the cords of sensual pleasures (kaama-gu.nesu). Previously I was conceited, being without self-mastery (avasa-vattinii) over the mind means: previously, control over my mind did not exist (avattamaane). I was conceited, not concentrated, with my mind confused by various objects. Pariyu.t.thitaa klesehi, subhasa~n~naanuvattiniiti pariyu.t.thaanapattehi kaamaraagaadikilesehi abhibhuutaa ruupaadiisu subhanti pavattaaya kaamasa~n~naaya anuvattanasiilaa. Sama.m cittassa na labhi.m, raagacittavasaanugaati kaamaraagasampayuttacittassa vasa.m anugacchantii iisakampi cittassa sama.m cetosamatha.m cittekaggata.m na labhi.m. 78. Obsessed (pariyu.t.thitaa) by the defilements (kilesehi), giving way to the notion of happiness (subhasa~n~naanuvattinii) means: overcome by defilments such as desire for sensual pleasures (kaama-raagaadi-kilesehi), etc, which are obsessions (pariyu.t.thaana-pattehi), being compliant by nature because of the perception of sensual pleasures (kaama-sa~n~naaya) that occurs, namely, "There is happiness in material form." I did not obtain peace of mind (sama.m cittassa), being under the influence of thoughts of passion (raaga-citta-vasaanugaa) means: having fallen under (anugacchantii) the control (vasa.m) of my mind that was associated with desire for sensual pleasures (kaama-raaga-sampayutta-cittassa), I did not obtain even a little peace of mind (cittassa sama.m), mental calm (ceto-samatha.m), single-pointedness of mind (citt'ekaggata.m). Kisaa pa.n.du viva.n.naa caati eva.m ukka.n.thitabhaavena kisaa dhamanisanthatagattaa uppa.n.duppa.n.dukajaataa tato eva viva.n.naa vigatachaviva.n.naa ca hutvaa. Satta vassaaniiti satta sa.mvaccharaani. Caarihanti cari.m aha.m. Naaha.m divaa vaa ratti.m vaa, sukha.m vindi.m sudukkhitaati evamaha.m sattasu sa.mvaccharesu kilesadukkhena dukkhitaa ekadaapi divaa vaa ratti.m vaa sama.nasukha.m na pa.tilabhi.m. 79. Thin, pale (pa.n.du), and wan (viva.n.naa) means: thus I was thin because of my state of anxiety, with veins standing out on my limbs, having become very pale (uppa.nd'-uppa.nduka-jaataa), and as a result I became wan, with the colour of my skin gone (vigata-chavi-va.n.naa). For seven years (satta vassaani) means: for seven years (satta sa.m-vaccharaani). I wandered (caari'ha.m) means: I wandered (cari.m aha.m). [Being] very pained (sudukkhitaa), I did not find happiness (sukha.m) by day or night means: thus, for seven years I did not obtain the happiness of a recluse (sama.na-sukha.m) for even one day or night because I was pained by the misery of the defilements (kilesa-dukkhena dukkhitaa). Tatoti kilesapariyu.t.thaanena sama.nasukhaalaabhabhaavato. Rajju.m gahetvaana paavisi.m, vanamantaranti paasarajju.m aadaaya vanantara.m paavisi.m. Kimattha.m paavisiiti ce aaha- "vara.m me idha ubbandha.m, ya~nca hiina.m punaacare"ti yadaha.m sama.nadhamma.m kaatu.m asakkontii hiina.m gihibhaava.m puna aacare aacareyya.m anuti.t.theyya.m, tato satagu.nena sahassagu.nena imasmi.m vanantare ubbandha.m bandhitvaa mara.na.m me vara.m se.t.thanti attho. 80. Then means: the state of lacking the happiness of a recluse through being obsessed with the defilements. If someone asks, "Why did I go on?" [Thinking,] "It is better to hang myself than to lead a low life again" means: If I am not able to fulfil the duty of a recluse, if I lead (aacare), if I should lead (aacareyya.m), should practise (anuti.t.the-yya.m) a low life of being a householder, then it is a hundred times better, a thousand times better to hang (ubbandha.m), to be bound (bandhitvaa), inside a wood. Death is better (vara.m = se.t.tha.m) for me. That is the meaning. Atha citta.m vimucci meti yadaa rukkhasaakhaaya bandhapaasa.m giivaaya.m pakkhipi, atha tadanantarameva vu.t.thaanagaaminivipassanaamaggena gha.titattaa maggapa.tipaa.tiyaa sabbaasavehi mama citta.m vimucci vimutta.m ahosiiti. 81. Then my (me) mind was completely released means: when I cast the noose over the branch of the tree and on my neck, then immediately afterward, my (mama) mind was completely released of all taints through the paths, one after the other, which are connected with the path of insight leading to emergence; that is to say, it was freed. Siihaatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa ni.t.thitaa. Here ends the commentary on the verses by Therii Siihaa. peace, connie #69202 From: TGrand458@... Date: Mon Mar 5, 2007 3:55 am Subject: Re: Antw.: [dsg] Q. Rupas, Ch 1, no 2 TGrand458@... In a message dated 3/5/2007 3:07:51 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi TG, When moving your arm you may be thinking of changes. But the infinitely tiny rupas of what we call arm are arising and falling away within splitseconds without you noticing it. There must be a change each splitsecond, otherwise there could not be a noticeable change after a long time. Nina. Hi Nina I Just don't know what "tiny rupas" are...or any other rupas for that matter. I have no problem with "change every split second." TG #69203 From: TGrand458@... Date: Mon Mar 5, 2007 4:20 am Subject: Re: Antw.: [dsg] Q. Rupas, Ch 1, no 2 TGrand458@... Hi Robert In a message dated 3/5/2007 5:57:06 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, rjkjp1@... writes: Dear TG, I'm no expert on science views but isn't energy a type of matter? __________ TG: What does "matter" mean to you Robert? As I said, I don't claim there is "matter" in the traditional sense. I think its all energy (movement) and just "appears to us" as matter. I call it "firmness" ... the earth element. I believe its a temporary balance of coalescence (water element) and dispersion (air element). Einstein, as I have understood the quote, said that mass (not using the term matter) and energy were the same stuff. Based on my "independent" analysis of the Four Great Elements, I came to the same conclusion without knowing much science. “There is no essential distinction between mass and energy. Energy has mass and mass represents energy. Instead of two conservation laws, we have only one, that of mass-energy.â€? (Albert Einstein . . . Einstein and Buddha: The Parallel Sayings, pg. 102) “It followed from the special theory of relativity that mass and energy are both but different manifestations of the same thing – a somewhat unfamiliar conception for the average mind. Furthermore, the equation E is equal to m c-squared, in which energy is put equal to mass, multiplied by the square of the velocity of light, showed that very small amounts of mass may be converted into very large amounts of energy and vice versa. The mass and energy were in fact equivalent, according to the formula mentioned before. This was demonstrated by Cockcroft and Walton in 1932, experimentally.â€? (Albert Einstein . . . from the soundtrack of the film, Atomic Physics. Copyright J. Arthur Rank Organization, Ltd., 1948. Image Brown Brothers, Sterling, PA.) > > And that there is no arisng and falling of matter or > mentality. > > TG: No again. There is arising and falling of phenomena. (I do not claim > there is or is not matter however.) ______ I thought you disagreed when the texts say that phenomena arise and pass away? TG: Nope. Not at all. I think phenomena are constantly moving. It is this constant change which forces formations to rise, persist while changing, and fall. "Rise and fall" is just a short hand way of saying this IMO. It is just language trying to express a rather simple observation. To take it so literally as to generate a theory of immediate rising and then immediate passing away of "somethings" called rupas to me means the common sense descriptions have been blown out of proportion. I disagree with "rupas" theory. The so called "realities" are not things that have their own essence. Thanks for letting me clarify myself. If indeed I have? ;-) TG #69204 From: TGrand458@... Date: Mon Mar 5, 2007 4:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q Rupas, Ch 1, no 2 TGrand458@... In a message dated 3/5/2007 9:08:09 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, connieparker@... writes: Hi TG: TG: The issue was not whether plants were "living beings." The issue was whether they were alive at all. Nina believes plants are not alive. Do you as well? C: Yes, that is my belief (or non-belief, if you prefer). There are none of the nine rupas originating from kamma there, therefore, they are not living. No jiivitindriya ruupa to narrow it down. I fail to see the distinction you're making between a living being and a thing being alive, btw. peace, connie Hi Connie I think for most people "a living being" would indicate a conscious life form such as a human being, a fish, or a dog, etc.. I'm not sure what Kamma has to do with something being alive? And I'm too rusty and lazy to know what Jiivitindriya Ruupa is but it sounds like the type of Abhidhamma analysis which is interesting, but no real compelling for me. Anyway, its really not important in regards to the Path IMO. TG #69205 From: connie Date: Mon Mar 5, 2007 10:32 am Subject: Re: The biological self nichiconn Hey, Herman, I couldn't get the sword past security, but those literal millions of undead from smallpox still die. In spite of what they say, there is no preventable death, she just books another flight. Smallpox, hepatitus, etc. are indicative of disorders of the elements. The body, being composed of rupas, does not know anything. It is thinking that says "this is mine" and in sharing the body with these 'invaders', there is the opportunity to relect on how it really isn't "mine' at all and how out of "my control" things are. Mindfulness as to the body, btw, is said not to arise in the Brahma planes. peace, connie #69206 From: Dhammanando Bhikkhu Date: Mon Mar 5, 2007 10:39 am Subject: Re: Request for help with Pali pronunciation dhammanando_... Dear Robert, > This may help to isolate the sound:) > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhQf36GYd68 :D I think the sound files on this site might be more convenient to use: http://www.jamaicans.com/speakja/sound.htm The way the speaker pronounces the c in 'car' is a good example of a palatal plosive like the Pali 'c'. For the Pali 'j' listen to the pronunciation of the two g's in the sentence "Gwaan go heat" ("go on and eat"). Best wishes, Dhammanando #69207 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Mar 5, 2007 11:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q Rupas, Ch 1, no 2 nilovg Dear Connie, TG, Thanks for your concern. I have to make it short now, the doctor and Lodewijk are after me! But as Scott said, an opportunity for khanti, patience. Just as to nutrition: the food we take, kabalingkara ahaara, morsellike food, after it is absorbed in the body supports the nutritive essence in the groups of rupa so that these produce fresh rupas. In a new unit of rupa nutritive essence produces another unit and so on. That is why we can go without food for a week. We come to that later on. Nina. Op 5-mrt-2007, om 5:58 heeft connie het volgende geschreven: > we don't get nutrition from plants, rocks or animals at all, > but from the rupa called 'nutrition'. #69208 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Mar 5, 2007 10:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Practicality of Right Thought: A Trivial Everyday Example\Nina nilovg Hi Howard, I was glad to read your observations. It is good to realize that thinking is only thinking, a conditioned nama. Now, one step further: when you are actually in the middle of chaos, there can sometimes be a short moment of realizing thinking of stories as just thinking, or sound. I do not tell you not to watch out for broken glass, we also live in the conventional world. We can learn the Middle Way. Satipatthana in the midst of all the troubles of daily life, that is the middle way. Then events can be faced with understanding instead of with dosa. Nina. Op 4-mrt-2007, om 21:50 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > This morning I was meditating, and early into it these dumb > thoughts arose. At that point, there also occurred to me that all > those thoughts were just stories, that all that really was going on > at the moment was thinking, feeling of bodily sensations, seeing of > shades of light and color through closed eyelids, and hearing of > sounds - just a bunch of fleeting, inpersonal phenomena being > observed. #69209 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Mar 5, 2007 11:11 am Subject: Lettrs on Vipassana, 9, no 5. nilovg Dear friends, (continuation of quote from Alan's letter) The perfection of truthfulness or sincerity is indispensable for the development of paññå. Susie wrote to me that she realized that there are, after seeing, many moments of thinking of stories about people and things. She wrote: "I certainly see that I get so absorbed that I don't want to hear, read or think about Dhamma. I would rather have my lobha and my story. Pretty natural." This is sincere. If we try to force ourselves not to be absorbed in stories about people and things there is already desire for result. There is the idea of self who is "doing something" and then we are on the wrong path. Only if we naturally follow all realities, also the moments of being absorbed, we are on the "Middle Way", and then understanding can develop. Do we mind what kind of reality arises? Do we mind lack of sati? We may think that we do not mind but as understanding develops, one knows that one minds a lot. How much or how little we mind indicates to what extent understanding has developed. We can only find out ourselves. When understanding has developed more it does not matter at all which type of reality appears since they are all conditioned. ******* Nina. #69210 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Mar 5, 2007 11:11 am Subject: Rupas Ch 1, no 8. nilovg Dear friends, The “Visuddhimagga” (XI, 98) states that the four Great Elements are like the great creatures of a magician who “turns water that is not crystal into crystal, and turns a clod that is not gold into gold....” We are attached to crystal and gold, we are deceived by the outward appearance of things. There is no crystal or gold in the ultimate sense, only rúpas which arise and then fall away. We may be able to know the difference between moments that we are absorbed in concepts and ideas and moments that there is mindfulness of realities such as hardness or heat which appear one at a time. Mindfulness (sati) arises with kusala citta and it is mindful of one nåma or rúpa at a time. When we are, for example, stung by a mosquito, we may have aversion towards the pain and there may be forgetfulness of realities. But when there are conditions for kusala citta with mindfulness a rúpa such as heat can be object of mindfulness. This is the way to gradually develop the understanding which knows nåma and rúpa as they are: only elements that are impermanent and devoid of self. As we read in the “Greater Discourse of the Simile of the Elephant’s Footprint”, different “parts of the body” are mentioned where the characteristics of the four Great Elements are apparent. The aim is to see the body as it really is. When Såriputta explained about the four Great Elements he repeated after each section: ...By means of perfect intuitive wisdom it should be seen of this as it really is, thus: This is not mine, this am I not, this is not myself.... ****** Nina. #69211 From: TGrand458@... Date: Mon Mar 5, 2007 7:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Rupas Ch 1, no 8. TGrand458@... In a message dated 3/5/2007 12:33:04 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: This is the way to gradually develop the understanding which knows nåma and rúpa as they are: only elements that are impermanent and devoid of self. Hi Nina, Robert, Howard, Connie, Herman... Now I could be wrong, and my readings are rusty, but I understand Nama and Rupa as "categories" of elements. The Nama category includes consciousness, feeling, perception, and mental formations. The Rupa category basically every conditioned thing other than Nama. This would mean that Nama and Rupa are not real states, not elements, but just categories whereby we group elements. They are just headings that refer to states, they are not the states "themselves." This would mean that there is no such thing as a "rupa," that arises with a group of qualities; but rather, there are qualities, that for purposes of discernment, we categorize as rupa. Is this the way you are understanding this? TG #69212 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Mon Mar 5, 2007 12:51 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Faith (Re: New Group_ egberdina Hi James, On 06/03/07, buddhatrue wrote: > Hi Herman, > You have spoken very well. Full credit to you. But I bags some of the merit :-) Kind Regards Herman #69213 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Mon Mar 5, 2007 1:17 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Rupas Ch 1, no 8. egberdina Hi TG and all, On 06/03/07, TGrand458@... wrote: > > Now I could be wrong, and my readings are rusty, but I understand Nama and > Rupa as "categories" of elements. The Nama category includes consciousness, > feeling, perception, and mental formations. The Rupa category basically every > conditioned thing other than Nama. > > This would mean that Nama and Rupa are not real states, not elements, but > just categories whereby we group elements. They are just headings that refer > to states, they are not the states "themselves." > > This would mean that there is no such thing as a "rupa," that arises with a > group of qualities; but rather, there are qualities, that for purposes of > discernment, we categorize as rupa. > > Is this the way you are understanding this? > Absolutely. Namas and rupas are things in general. They have no existence, other than as thoughts (which is what a category is). As to what does exist, well, everything exists. All at once. Selective attention and the limits of perception notwithstanding :-) Kind Regards Herman #69214 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Mon Mar 5, 2007 1:33 pm Subject: Re: Antw.: [dsg] Q. Rupas, Ch 1, no 2 egberdina Hi Sarah, On 05/03/07, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi TG, > > --- TGrand458@... wrote: > > I can't think of one sutta that backs up the "arising and immediately > > ceasing" outlook. > ..... > S: Do any of the following help? > I thought that all your examples demonstrated the speed of change of consciousness/mental acts. There is nothing that can be known about the speed of change of the *objects* of consciousness/mental acts if their rate of change is slower. Unless you introduce a third party nama that knows that the fist nama is falling away while that third party remains to see it falling away, this is all speculation of an order that doesn't require observation or logic. Anything goes. If anything I say is not clear, please ask and I will happily clarify. KInd Regards Herman #69215 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Mon Mar 5, 2007 1:38 pm Subject: Re: Antw.: [dsg] Q. Rupas, Ch 1, no 2 egberdina Hi RobK, On 05/03/07, rjkjp1 wrote: > How does your theory explain that one mght die as a human and then be > reborn instantly - without any time interval-as a God in a distant > world. Isn't that more than a slowly continuous change? > And how could matter move so fast ? How do you arrive at the suggestion that one can be reborn instantly, as a God in a distant world? And why would that "method" be better than the method a Tibetan might use to arrive at the suggestion that there is in fact an intermediate state taking up to 7 weeks? Kind Regards Herman #69216 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Mon Mar 5, 2007 1:51 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A final venting from phil, probably. egberdina Hi Sarah, On 05/03/07, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Mike (Jiw & all), > > .... > S: This relates to the other posts I just sent. When they are just cittas, > cetasikas and rupas (not me-mine), that arise and fall away, what is there > to worry about? > The arising of worry is also just cittas etc, right? Why worry about worrying? Life, death and suffering are also just cittas. Anything done or not done is also just cittas. Cittas are just cittas. Of course, cittas are not just cittas, are they? Or if they are, what's all this stuff about a/kusala? Kind Regards Herman #69217 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Mon Mar 5, 2007 2:07 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The biological self egberdina Hi Connie, On 06/03/07, connie wrote: > Hey, Herman, > I couldn't get the sword past security, but those literal millions of > undead from smallpox still die. In spite of what they say, there is no > preventable death, she just books another flight. Exactly right. So, is there merit in acting to change the date on the inevitable tombstone to a later one? Obviously, most people think so, because they spend their lives seeking to prolong their lives. > Smallpox, hepatitus, etc. are indicative of disorders of the elements. The word disorder suggests there is a right way for things to be, and wrong ways for things to be. From what POV would that rightness/wrongness come? > The body, being composed of rupas, does not know anything. It is thinking > that says "this is mine" and in sharing the body with these 'invaders', > there is the opportunity to relect on how it really isn't "mine' at all > and how out of "my control" things are. Control doesn't have to be thought or known or conceived of, to be in effect. Conditions exert control, whether conscious or not. However, some conditions do become the object of consciousness. Such as intention. And when that consciousness is mindful consciousness, there is nothing determining about intention. You don't really think everything is out of your control when you go to turn the page in whatever sumptious tome you are devouring with your eyes, do you? :-) > Mindfulness as to the body, btw, is said not to arise in the Brahma planes. Sure. Agreed. And I'm sure there are many times when there is no awareness of the body in that Conning tower of yours :-) Kind Regards Herman #69218 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Mon Mar 5, 2007 2:36 pm Subject: The psychological self egberdina Hi all, Yesterday, I wrote about organisms needing to differentiate between self and not-self at a biological level, in order to be functional. Today, I would like to write about human beings who do not differentiate between self / not-self in their thinking. This is, again, at a level of identity, not agency. In compassionate societies, a person who does not so distinguish usually ends up in a mental institution of sorts. This is because they cannot function in a society that is built on an understanding of the difference between an internal/private world and an external/public world. These people are terribly confused as to the origin of all that they experience. As they do not know the boundaries between mine and not-mine, they do not understand the difference between what is thought and what is perceived. A thought of a car coming towards them is of the same order as a perception of a car coming towards them, and they will act to avoid both. Internal voices and commands are responded to in the same way that external prompts are followed. Entire lifetimes are lived in private heavens and hells. The beginning of insight, for such people, is the appearance of the boundary self/not-self, mine/not-mine. Needless to say, comments are welcomed. Kind Regards Herman #69219 From: "Larry" Date: Mon Mar 5, 2007 3:26 pm Subject: Re: Q. Visuddhimagga, Ch XVII, 137 lbidd2 Hi Nina, L:" Btw, am I correct in thinking the functional (kiriya) consciousnesses are not accounted for in the dependent arising formula because dependent arising is only concerned with kamma and its result?" --------- N:" The arahat who has mahaa-kiriyacittas instead of mahaa-kusala cittas is freed from the cycle. He does not commit kamma that can produce vipaaka. But he can still have vipaakacittas produced by former kamma, committed before he was an arahat." L: What about the other kiriya cittas? Larry #69220 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Mar 5, 2007 4:18 pm Subject: Vism.XVII,138 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga), Ch. XVII 138. In another's case, at the time of death there comes into focus in one of the five doors an inferior object that is a cause of greed, and so on. When a series of consciousnesses up to determining have arisen in due succession, there arise impulsions numbering five because of slowing down due to the nearness of death, and two registrations. After that, one death consciousness arises making the life-continuum's objective field its object. At this point fifteen consciousnesses have elapsed, namely, two life-continuums, one adverting, seeing, receiving, investigating and determining, five impulsions, two registrations, and one death consciousness. Then, having that same object, which has a life span of the remaining one conscious moment, his rebirth-linking consciousness arises. This also is the kind of rebirth-linking that has a 'present' object and comes next to a death consciousness with a 'past' object. This, firstly, is how rebirth-linking in an unhappy destiny with 'past' and 'present' objects occurs next to death consciousness in a happy destiny with a 'past' object. ********************* 138. aparassa mara.nasamaye pa~ncanna.m dvaaraana.m a~n~natarasmi.m raagaadihetubhuuta.m hiinamaaramma.na.m aapaathamaagacchati. tassa yathaakkamena uppanne vo.t.thabbanaavasaane mara.nassa aasannabhaavena mandiibhuutavegattaa pa~nca javanaani, dve tadaaramma.naani ca uppajjanti. tato bhava"ngavisaya.m aaramma.na.m katvaa eka.m cuticitta.m. ettaavataa ca dve bhava"ngaani, aavajjana.m, dassana.m, sampa.ticchana.m, santiira.na.m, vo.t.thabbana.m, pa~nca javanaani, dve tadaaramma.naani, eka.m cuticittanti pa~ncadasa cittakkha.naa atiitaa honti. athaavasesaekacittakkha.naayuke tasmi~n~neva aaramma.ne pa.tisandhicitta.m uppajjati. ayampi atiitaaramma.naaya cutiyaa anantaraa paccuppannaaramma.naa pa.tisandhi. esa taava atiitaaramma.naaya sugaticutiyaa anantaraa atiitapaccuppannaaramma.naaya duggatipa.tisandhiyaa pavattanaakaaro. #69221 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Mar 5, 2007 4:40 pm Subject: Plant life ([dsg] Re: Q Rupas, Ch 1, no 2) buddhatrue Hi TG and Connie, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@... wrote: > > > In a message dated 3/5/2007 9:08:09 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, > connieparker@... writes: > > Hi TG: > > TG: The issue was not whether plants were "living beings." The issue was > whether they were alive at all. Nina believes plants are not alive. Do > you as well? > > C: Yes, that is my belief (or non-belief, if you prefer). There are none > of the nine rupas originating from kamma there, therefore, they are not > living. No jiivitindriya ruupa to narrow it down. This is one subject where the Abhidhamma and the Vinaya directly contradict each other. According to the Abhidhamma, plants are not living beings; however, according to the Vinaya, plants are "one- facultied living beings". There is an article which I cannot seem to get without paying for it, but here is the abstract: "The ethic of non-violence in the Pali Vinaya and Nikayas indicates that the object of the ethic is humans, animals, and plants, thus suggesting that plants are considered living and sentient in the early Buddhist tradition. Recent work by Lambert Schmithausen, however, demonstrates that there are a diversity of views in the Buddhist tradition. This article explores the evidence in the Vinaya and Nikayas on this subject, concluding that plants have one sense, that of "touch," and that plants comprise the "stable, or non-moving" category of living beings." "Borderline Beings: Plant Possibilities in Early Buddhism" Ellison Banks Findly http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-92409251.html Metta, James #69222 From: TGrand458@... Date: Mon Mar 5, 2007 12:23 pm Subject: Re: Plant life ([dsg] Re: Q Rupas, Ch 1, no 2) TGrand458@... In a message dated 3/5/2007 5:41:36 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, buddhatrue@... writes: This is one subject where the Abhidhamma and the Vinaya directly contradict each other. According to the Abhidhamma, plants are not living beings; however, according to the Vinaya, plants are "one- facultied living beings". Hi James Thanks for bringing this up. I'd forgotten about this but remember reading it somewhere and perhaps it was the Vinaya. TG #69223 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Mar 5, 2007 5:25 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Rupas Ch 1, no 8. upasaka_howard In a message dated 3/5/2007 12:33:04 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: This is the way to gradually develop the understanding which knows nÃ¥ma and rúpa as they are: only elements that are impermanent and devoid of self. Hi Nina, Robert, Howard, Connie, Herman... Now I could be wrong, and my readings are rusty, but I understand Nama and Rupa as "categories" of elements. The Nama category includes consciousness, feeling, perception, and mental formations. The Rupa category basically every conditioned thing other than Nama. This would mean that Nama and Rupa are not real states, not elements, but just categories whereby we group elements. They are just headings that refer to states, they are not the states "themselves." This would mean that there is no such thing as a "rupa," that arises with a group of qualities; but rather, there are qualities, that for purposes of discernment, we categorize as rupa. Is this the way you are understanding this? TG ==================================== I understand rupas to be phenomena (i.e., elements of experience) other than mental operations and characteristics. With metta, Howard #69224 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon Mar 5, 2007 5:47 pm Subject: [dsg] Faith (Re: New Group_ rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > > James: Rob K. cannot be included in this discussion because he isn't > a Buddhist. He denies faith in and the importance of the Sangha of > the Triple Gem, so he isn't a Buddhist in my book. (I am rather > dogmatic about those sorts of things). > Dear James Could you say where you got the idea that I deny faith in the importance of the Sangha? Robert #69225 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon Mar 5, 2007 6:10 pm Subject: Re: Antw.: [dsg] Q. Rupas, Ch 1, no 2 rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > > Hi RobK, > > On 05/03/07, rjkjp1 wrote: > > > How does your theory explain that one mght die as a human and then be > > reborn instantly - without any time interval-as a God in a distant > > world. Isn't that more than a slowly continuous change? > > And how could matter move so fast ? > > How do you arrive at the suggestion that one can be reborn instantly, > as a God in a distant world? > > And why would that "method" be better than the method a Tibetan might > use to arrive at the suggestion that there is in fact an intermediate > state taking up to 7 weeks? ____________ Dear Herman Dhammas arise and fall away instantaneously, while the idea of an intermediate being is rooted in an idea of a lasting being, it is wrong view. This thread may help http://www.abhidhamma.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=148 Also as this is a Theravada forum presumably all members understand that the ideas expressed should be Theravada, not Tibetan or any other philosophy. Robert #69226 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon Mar 5, 2007 6:15 pm Subject: Re: The biological self rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connie wrote: > > Smallpox, hepatitus, etc. are indicative of disorders of the elements. > The body, being composed of rupas, does not know anything. It is thinking > that says "this is mine" and in sharing the body with these 'invaders', > there is the opportunity to relect on how it really isn't "mine' at all > and how out of "my control" things are. > Dear Connie Nice post, you really getting to the heart of Dhamma these days IMO. Robert #69227 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon Mar 5, 2007 6:49 pm Subject: Re: Antw.: [dsg] Q. Rupas, Ch 1, no 2 rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@... wrote: > > Hi Robert > > > In a message dated 3/5/2007 5:57:06 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, > rjkjp1@... writes: > > Dear TG, > I'm no expert on science views but isn't energy a type of matter? > __________ > > TG: What does "matter" mean to you Robert? As I said, I don't claim there > is "matter" in the traditional sense. I think its all energy (movement) and > just "appears to us" as matter. Dear TG, I had always thought terms like energy and mass included all types of matter but perhaps that idea is not accepted anymore? I merely use matter as an English term for rupa. Western science is so limited compared to Dhamma- so many models with complex abstrations like quarks and photons, but they never get to actual elements like tejo and vayo. And saying that I do think physics is an incredible considering it developed without benefit of Dhamma knowledge- it shows how clever lobha is. > > > > And that there is no arisng and falling of matter or > > mentality. > > > > TG: No again. There is arising and falling of phenomena. (I do > not claim > > there is or is not matter however.) > > ______ > > I thought you disagreed when the texts say that phenomena arise and > pass away? > > > > TG: Nope. Not at all. I think phenomena are constantly moving. It is > this constant change which forces formations to rise, persist while changing, > and fall. "Rise and fall" is just a short hand way of saying this IMO. It is > just language trying to express a rather simple observation. To take it so > literally as to generate a theory of immediate rising and then immediate > passing away of "somethings" called rupas to me means the common sense > descriptions have been blown out of proportion. ________ I see, but surely it must be that way. Even physics suggests that in a tiny piece of matter - say a tip of a finger - there are billions of incredibly tiny "atoms" which are in constant extremely rapid flux. With huge spaces in between. Why does it seem wrong that the Theravada suggests that these "atoms" are actually not as they seem at all. That the reality is much more in flux than science thinks: That it is simply elements, kalapas - groups of rupas- arising and passing away. BTW I was surpised by comment suggeting that the Theravada explanation of rupas is too simple to account for variety. One western science model of atoms posits electrons nuetrons and protons and still manages to account for the elements in the periodic table. Robert #69228 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Mar 5, 2007 7:00 pm Subject: [dsg] Faith (Re: New Group_ buddhatrue Hi Robert (and Herman), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > Dear James > Could you say where you got the idea that I deny faith in the > importance of the Sangha? > Robert Oops, Oh my goodness, soooooo sorry!! When Herman wrote Rob K I thought he meant Ken H. I am really bad with names and got you guys confused. You sign "Robert", so I wasn't thinking when he wrote Rob K. Robert (Rob K), I know that you have specifically and clearly stated your faith in the Buddha Sangha. So sorry again! Metta, James #69229 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon Mar 5, 2007 7:16 pm Subject: [dsg] Faith (Re: New Group_ rjkjp1 Dear James, no problem, thanks for clarifying. Robert In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: >> > Robert (Rob K), I know that you have specifically and clearly stated > your faith in the Buddha Sangha. So sorry again! > > #69230 From: TGrand458@... Date: Mon Mar 5, 2007 2:09 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Rupas Ch 1, no 8. TGrand458@... In a message dated 3/5/2007 6:28:29 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, upasaka@... writes: I understand rupas to be phenomena (i.e., elements of experience) other than mental operations and characteristics. With metta, Howard Hi Howard What I was really trying to get answers to was whether nama and rupa were just categories referring to elements under their headings. If so, that would mean nama and rupa were not phenomena, but just ways of classifying or categorizing the phenomena/elements that come under their heading. I don't think your answer was in response to that issue. But maybe it was now that I look at it closer. TG #69231 From: connie Date: Mon Mar 5, 2007 7:23 pm Subject: Re: The biological self nichiconn Hi Herman, H: ...is there merit in acting to change the date on the inevitable tombstone to a later one? Obviously, most people think so, because they spend their lives seeking to prolong their lives. C: Not knowing the course of anyone's future, I'd have to say the safe bet was to want to prolong their misery, yes, in the hopes that their understanding or other merits increased. > Smallpox, hepatitus, etc. are indicative of disorders of the elements. H: The word disorder suggests there is a right way for things to be, and wrong ways for things to be. From what POV would that rightness/wrongness come? C: Disturbance, then, instead of disorder; a change in the status quo that negatively impacts the health to a greater degree than we're used to or like. We probably agree the dislike (POV) comes from my wanting things to be one way or another and it just not happening. Just like the rest of the folks who don't care for dis-ease of one kind or another, I reckon. H: Control doesn't have to be thought or known or conceived of, to be in effect. Conditions exert control, whether conscious or not. However, some conditions do become the object of consciousness. Such as intention. And when that consciousness is mindful consciousness, there is nothing determining about intention. C: Care to elaborate on that last bit? Maybe say what is meant by intent or intention? (The rest of this whole conversation isn't all that interesting to me.) H: You don't really think everything is out of your control when you go to turn the page in whatever sumptious tome you are devouring with your eyes, do you? :-) C: I think I live in the past... the events that took place are already gone before the thoughts have had time to put me in the picture. Today's lovely one is The Path of Purity. H ... I'm sure there are many times when there is no awareness of the body in that Conning tower of yours :-) C: More often than not, no doubt. Echoing your Kind Regards #69232 From: connie Date: Mon Mar 5, 2007 7:24 pm Subject: Re: Q Rupas, Ch 1, no 2 nichiconn Dear Nina, If Lodewijk and the doctor are after you, I guess I'll just have to get in line! Do take care. And don't answer back! Thanks for all the "nutrition". Looking forward to more. best wishes, connie In a new unit of rupa nutritive essence produces another unit and so on. #69233 From: connie Date: Mon Mar 5, 2007 7:24 pm Subject: Re: Q Rupas, Ch 1, no 2 nichiconn Hi TG, TG: I think for most people "a living being" would indicate a conscious life form such as a human being, a fish, or a dog, etc.. Connie: I guess most people don't believe in "non-sentient beings" / asa~n~nasatta brahmas. TG: I'm not sure what Kamma has to do with something being alive? Connie: If not for kamma, there wouldn't be re-linking for one. And then those nine kammaja rupas I don't really think you want to discuss from what you say below but they're in SPD in case you do get compelled. TG: And I'm too rusty and lazy to know what Jiivitindriya Ruupa is but it sounds like the type of Abhidhamma analysis which is interesting, but no real compelling for me. Connie: Some say 'life-force' for jiivitindriya. TG: Anyway, its really not important in regards to the Path IMO. Connie: Ok. I'll consider the conversation ended. Thank you. #69234 From: connie Date: Mon Mar 5, 2007 7:24 pm Subject: Re: Plant life nichiconn Hey, James, too bad about the article {www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-92409251.html} not being free! sounds interesting. would you happen to be able to give a fuller quote from the Vinaya on plants being "one-facultied living beings"? thanks, connie #69235 From: TGrand458@... Date: Mon Mar 5, 2007 2:24 pm Subject: Re: Antw.: [dsg] Q. Rupas, Ch 1, no 2 TGrand458@... In a message dated 3/5/2007 7:50:38 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, rjkjp1@... writes: BTW I was surpised by comment suggeting that the Theravada explanation of rupas is too simple to account for variety. One western science model of atoms posits electrons nuetrons and protons and still manages to account for the elements in the periodic table. Robert Hi Robert This wasn't my suggestion so I don't know who said it. TG #69236 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Mon Mar 5, 2007 8:24 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Plant life egberdina Hi Connie (and James), I just can't help myself when it comes to being helpful :-) On 05 Mar 2007 19:24:14 -0800, connie wrote: > Hey, James, > too bad about the article {www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-92409251.html} not > being free! sounds interesting. would you happen to be able to give a > fuller quote from the Vinaya on plants being "one-facultied living beings"? > thanks, Apparently there is reference to ekindriya jiva in Vin. IV, 183 (Oldenberg I, 137). This singular faculty is the sense of touch (from another source referenced as being Vin. A. 575) Hope this helps Kind Regards Herman #69237 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Mar 5, 2007 9:09 pm Subject: The Golden Middle Way! bhikkhu5 Friends: Avoiding Extremes by the Golden Middle Way! The Blessed Buddha once said: The homeless one should not follow after these Two Extremes: 1: Giving in to indulgence in easy sensual pleasure, which is banal, primitive, vulgar, not noble, & disadvantageous on a very long term! Neither should he 2: Practice martyr self-torture, which is painful, not noble, and disadvantageous. The Blessed One has avoided both these extremes, and found the Golden Middle Way, which gives one both vision and understanding, which leads to peace, to clear insight, to Enlightenment, to NibbÄ?na... It is this very Noble 8-fold Way that leads to the final irreversible ceasing of absolutely all Suffering: Right View Right Motivation Right Speech Right Action Right Livelihood Right Effort Right Awareness Right Concentration These Eight Noble Links, Friends and Bhikkhus, are to be developed for the full comprehension & elimination of all greed, hate, confusion, anger, envy, stinginess, hypocrisy, shrewdness, disloyalty, conceit, stubbornness, irritation, haughty arrogance, and lethargic laziness! These Noble 8 Links will induce their complete annihilation, ceasing, overcoming, vanishing, abandoning, destruction, evaporation, and the ultimate detaching release from all of these mental horrors! Source (edited extracts): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya SN: 56:11 Numerical Discourses of the Buddha. Anguttara Nikaya AN 8:90 http://What-Buddha-Said.net/Canon/Sutta/AN/Index.Numerical.htm More on the Noble Eight-Fold Way: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/The_Way.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/Middle_Way.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/Noble_8_fold_Way.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/The_Noble_8-Fold_Way.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/Fruits_of_the_Noble_Way.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/The_4th_Noble_Truth_on_The_Way_to_Cease_Suf\ fering.htm Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Ceylon * <....> #69238 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Mar 5, 2007 9:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Plant life sarahprocter... Hi Connie, James, TG, Ven Dhammanando & all, You might like to read this post I wrote again: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/66737 Are you sure the 'one-facultied living beings' refer to plants, James? From the quote I gave: >"This monk, taking no notice, cut it down, and in doing so, struck the arm of that devata's son. <...> People looked down upon, criticised, spread it about, saying: "How can these recluses, sons of the Sakyans, cut down trees and have them cut down? These recluses, sons of the Sakyans, are harming life that is one-facultied." <....>" .... S: From an earlier reference, I.B. Horner gives a footnote to say that 'one-facultied thing of life' refers to 'with body-sensibility, i.e sense of touch'. Ven Dhammanando or others may be able to add more on these Vinaya references. Also, TG and anyone else, you may care to look up 'Plants' in U.P. (and then you may *not* care to:-)). Metta, Sarah p.s Ven D. - thank you for your helpful and clear post on Sanghika dana. --- connie wrote: > Hey, James, > too bad about the article {www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-92409251.html} not > being free! sounds interesting. would you happen to be able to give a > fuller quote from the Vinaya on plants being "one-facultied living > beings"? #69239 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Mar 5, 2007 10:02 pm Subject: Re: Plant life buddhatrue Hi Connie, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connie wrote: > > Hey, James, > too bad about the article {www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-92409251.html} not > being free! sounds interesting. would you happen to be able to give a > fuller quote from the Vinaya on plants being "one-facultied living beings"? Sorry, all I can find is the relevant Pali: Kathan hi nama samana Sakyaputtiya rukkham chindissanti pi chedapessanti pi, ekindriyam samana Sakyaputtiya jivam vihethentiti, Pacittiya XI, Vinaya 4.34 Katham hi nama samana Sakyaputtiya talatarune chedapetva talapattapadukayo dharessanti, tani talatarunani chinnani milayanti. Ekidriyam samana sakyaputtiya jivam vihethentiti, Vinaya. 1.189. Katham hi nama samana Sakyaputtiya hemantam pi gimham pi vassam pi carikam carissanti haritanitinani sammaddanta ekindriyam fivam vihethenta bahu khuddake pane samghatam apadenta. Vinaya 1.137, 138 Metta, James #69240 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Mon Mar 5, 2007 10:04 pm Subject: Re: Antw.: [dsg] Q. Rupas, Ch 1, no 2 egberdina Hi RobK, Thank you for your comments. On 06/03/07, rjkjp1 wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" > wrote: > > > Dear Herman > Dhammas arise and fall away instantaneously, while the idea of an > intermediate being is rooted in an idea of a lasting being, it is > wrong view. Why do you say "dhammas rise and fall away instantaneously"? It would help to have something other than straight out assertion to work with . Am I mistaken in my understanding of the tradition you espouse that dhammas are composite events, comprised of namas and rupas. And that rupas last longer than namas? If rupas last longer than namas, what idea is being conveyed by asserting that dhammas arise and fall away instantaneously? > This thread may help > http://www.abhidhamma.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=148 > Also as this is a Theravada forum presumably all members understand > that the ideas expressed should be Theravada, not Tibetan or any > other philosophy. > Yes, this is a common appeal used to distinguish self from not-self, in an effort to keep not-self at bay. As in: "I am a Theravadin, not a Tibetan. Oh, and BTW, there are only cittas". But more about that later. If the dsg site intro did not say "The discussions include matters of both theory and practice, with the aim of developing precise understanding of dhammas ****(the 'realities' of the present moment)****, I wouldn't be here. I am here to discuss the realities of the present moment, not the doctrines about the realities of the present moment. There are no Theravadin/Tibetan etc dhammas, but there's plenty of Theravadin/Tibetan etc papanca. Kind Regards Herman PS I think this site needs a photo of a V8. I'll put up a photo in Sig Others of the Monaro before we got rid of it. 351, dual carby, roll cage, ideal wedding vehicle :-) #69241 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Mar 5, 2007 10:13 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Plant life buddhatrue Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Connie, James, TG, Ven Dhammanando & all, > > You might like to read this post I wrote again: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/66737 > > Are you sure the 'one-facultied living beings' refer to plants, James? Yes, I am sure. Devas that live in plants are not one-facultied, they are six-facultied like humans. They can see, hear, taste, touch, smell, and congnize. Plants are one-facultied; they can only feel touch (as demonstrated by the Venus Fly-Trap, etc.). "One-facultied living beings" could only refer to plants. Metta, James #69242 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Mar 6, 2007 1:11 am Subject: Acharn Sujin, an article. nilovg Dear friends, Khun Veera sent us an article from a Thai newspaper , Matichon, on Kh Sujin and the two other outstanding women in Buddhism who will receive awards tomorrow (European time). I will give a summary: Acharn Sujin is president of the Foundation for the study and support of the Dhamma. The aim of the Foundation is the study and practice of the dhamma. She lectures on the Abhidhamma and vipassana, so that people at this time can easily understand the Dhamma and apply it naturally in daily life. Both monks and laypeople do not have to do anything that is not natural, and they do not need to deviate from their duties with regard to their work and society. She lectures in a clear way. She is now eighty years old. She used to be a teacher of Thai for foreigners. She studied Abhidhamma with Acharn Neb. She has lectured at different universities in Thailand. She helped to explain the teachings in Sri lanks, Birma, Laos and the U.S. Her lectures can be read in books, and they can be heard on twenty different radio stations, on internet (www.dhammahome.com), tapes, C.D., MP 3 and Teleconference. When she was asked how she became so accomplished in the spreading of the Dhamma and became famous, she answered that she teaches "the truth" in an easy way according to the principle of cause and effect. N: I may explain that she refers to the right cause that brings the appropriate effect. Nina. #69243 From: "Phil" Date: Tue Mar 6, 2007 1:12 am Subject: Suttas on appamada ( was[dsg] Re: Daana Corner (10) ) philofillet Hello Han and all Han wrote: > I also like what you had written: > Heedfullnes, appamada, is like an umbrella under which > all wholesome states are given shelter to develop, > under which the indriyas develop. There is a very good > sutta in which the Buddha makes this very clear. > Wholesome states go to fulfillment under the > protection of appamada. Ph: It's a really helpful sutta, SN 48:56 : "Bhikkhus, when a bhikkhu is established in one thing, the five faculties are developed, well developed in him. In what one thing? Diligence. (appamada) "And what, bhikkhus, is diligence? Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu guards his mind against the taints and against tainted states. WHile he is guarding his mind thyus, the faculty of faith goes to fulfillment by development, the faculty of energy (etc) "It is in this way, bhikkhus, that when a bhikkhu is established in one thing, the five faculties are developed, well developed in him." Ph: Now, this is one of the descriptive suttas rather than a prescriptive one, in that we cannot become "established" in appamada just by deciding to be. But this sutta certainly helps to condition an appreciation of the importance of appamada. I find it interesting and helpful to reflect now and then on the various ways that being heedful and paying close attention to what I am doing might help to develop the indriyas. > > Yes, there are quite a few suttas on appamada. The > following is a short one on this topic. > SN 3.17 Appamada Sutta: Heedfulness, translated by > Thanissaro Bhikkhu > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn03/sn03.017.than.html > > > Quote: [At Savatthi. As he was sitting to one side, > King Pasenadi Kosala said to the Blessed One: "Is > there, lord, any one quality that keeps both kinds of > benefit secure ?Ebenefits in this life & benefits in > lives to come?" Ph: Thank you for sharing this sutta, Han. > Phil: > "We must be careful of our attitude" when doing > anything. The Buddha made this very clear in his > discourse to Rahula, his son. Before, during and after > whatever we do, think, or speak. > > Han: > I have read that somewhere. But I cannot remember in > which sutta. I would be grateful if you could kindly > give me the sutta reference where the Buddha > instructed Rahula to think very carefully before he > does, thinks, or speaks anything. Ph: It's such a straight-forward, eminently helpful sutta that I'm surprised it's not quoted here more often. Well, I guess that's not surprising, since it doesn't deal with nibanna or emptiness or other deep and difficult subjects. It is just about asking yourself whether what you are about to do, what you are doing, and what you just did is harmful for yourself and others and is likely to bring unpleasant results. It's really common-sense applied in the light of the Buddha's guidance. It is either MN 61 or 62. 61, I think. I will post some excerpts from it in my next post. Or perhaps you would like to post the access to insight link to it, along with your thoughts on the sutta. I have heard Sayadaw U Silananda speak on it, I think, or it may have been one of the other sayadaws I listen to. Metta, Phil #69244 From: "Phil" Date: Tue Mar 6, 2007 1:22 am Subject: Wonderful Dhamma talks by eminent Burmese monks philofillet Hi all I just mentionned to Han that I enjoy listening to talks by Burmese sayadaws. This is one of the best sites to hear them. I think you'll find the straight-forward, warm and humorous approach to Dhamma very invigorating, even if you are not a devotee of the Burmese satipatthana method. The talks by Sayadaw U. Pandita are interpreted/summarized into English, the others are spoken in English. Sayadaw U. Silananda passed away a couple of years ago. I imagine Han has had the good fortune of meeting some of the great teachers. Metta, Phil http://vipassanasangha.free.fr/discours_mp3_anglais.htm #69245 From: "Phil" Date: Tue Mar 6, 2007 1:35 am Subject: Re: Acharn Sujin, an article. philofillet Hi Nina First of all, sorry to hear that you've been feeling some wear and tear. Hope the nice spring weather helps, when it comes. > Both monks and laypeople do not have to do > anything that is not natural, I disagree with this. If we just continue doing what comes natural to us, we will make no progress. The Buddha's path is unnatural, in a sense. It is not natural to develop resistance to the strong cravings, clingings and compulsions that lead us astray. What *is* natural is going along with our conditioned patterns of behaviour. So Acharn Sujin is wrong here, I think. >and they do not need to deviate from > their duties with regard to their work and society. This is true. Rather than trying to force the ways of a monk into our householder lifestyles, let's perform our social duties in the light of the Dhamma. But if we do not undertake forms of restraint and guarding of the sense doors that do *not* come naturally to us, we will not be following the Buddha's path, I feel. And if we get caught up in worry about such things as "who tries to have restraint?" we will just be caught up in thinking about annata etc. Just my opinion, Nina. No need to respond. I'm just spouting off again! Metta, Phil #69246 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Mar 6, 2007 1:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Acharn Sujin, an article. nilovg Hi Phil, thanks for your concern. Very difficult for me to take rests. Patience. I had to translate the Thai pid pokketi: what is not usual. She meant: doing extraordinary things. Restraint is always good, no doubt. One can learn though, that it is not a self who restrains. By conditions it is seen that restraint is beneficial. Nina. Op 6-mrt-2007, om 10:35 heeft Phil het volgende geschreven: > Both monks and laypeople do not have to do > > anything that is not natural, #69247 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Mar 6, 2007 2:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: New Group sarahprocter... Hi Connie, James, Nina & all, I'm a little behind with some of my reading. I just read the following in one of Nina's posts in the Vism corner (#68892): "The Tiika refers to a sutta text of the Samyutta Nikaya (IV) : ‘When he, bhikkhus, takes delight in and is enslaved by the image (the outer appearance) of something, and his consciousness is fixed on this and when he takes delight in and is enslaved by the details, at the time when he is about to die, then it happens that he will go to one of two destinies: he will be reborn in hell or in the womb of an animal.’" .... S: I expect this was what Connie was referring to. Does anyone know which sutta in SN (1V) it is referring to? Metta, Sarah ========= #69248 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Tue Mar 6, 2007 2:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Rupas, Ch 1, no 3. sarahprocter... Hi TG & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@... wrote: Nina: > ...The water element has the characteristic of trickling. Its > function is to intensify. It is manifested as holding together. > > The element of water or cohesion cannot be experienced through the > bodysense, only through the mind-door. When we touch what we call > water, it is only solidity, temperature or motion which can be > experienced through the bodysense, not cohesion. Cohesion has to > arise together with whatever kind of materiality arises. It makes the > other rúpas it accompanies cohere so that they do not become > scattered. The “AtthasÃ¥linÓ (II, Book II, Ch III, 335) explains: .... > > TG: I generally agree with the above explanation except that "water" is not > an element. Water is a "predominance of coalescence" that is composed of > all the Four Great Elements. .... S: I'd like to raise two questions on your comment about 'water' not being an element. Firstly, are you making this comment about a concept of water or about the reality/element of water (apo dhatu) as found in the texts? From a recent installment of Nina's on rupas, it is clear what is meant by 'Water' or the 'Element of Water' in context: "The types of rúpa other than the four Great Elements depend on these four rúpas and cannot arise without them. They are the following rúpas: the Element of Earth or solidity the Element of Water or cohesion the Element of Fire or heat the Element of Wind (air) or motion Earth, Water, Fire and Wind do not in this context have the same meaning as in conventional language, neither do they represent conceptual ideas as we find them in different philosophical systems." ***** Secondly, as someone who has tremendous confidence in the suttas, how do you read the many references in them to water element if water is not an element? For example: On Elements in MN 10, Satipatthana Sutta: " Again, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu reviews this same body, however it is placed, however disposed, as consisting of elements thus: 'In this body there are the earth element, the *water* element, the fire element, and the air element.' " ***** >Water is a "symbol/metaphor" for coalescence. Of > course we CAN touch water but as you say, it is the other three elements > generating the sensation, not coalescence. .... S: Even so, apo dhatu (water element) with its characteristic of cohesion or coalescence is a distinct element or reality, knowable by the very wise. I agree with you that what we take for the experience of water is not the experience of this element. ... > Coalescence is an INWARD > force/motion and therefore is always "moving away" from the sense bases and therefore > cannot make contact. ... S: Where do we read about this 'INWARD force/motion' in the suttas? Also, when you refer to 'energy' and the 'experience of energy', what is the reality/element as found in the suttas with which this corresponds? Are you referring to the experience of vayo dhatu (air element)? Metta, Sarah p.s Apologies for any misunderstanding or clarifications in later posts - I'm rather behind with some threads. ================ #69249 From: han tun Date: Tue Mar 6, 2007 5:13 am Subject: Re: Suttas on appamada ( was[dsg] Re: Daana Corner (10) ) hantun1 Dear Phil, Thank you once again for sharing SN 48:56. I also like what you wrote: “Now, this is one of the descriptive suttas rather than a prescriptive one, in that we cannot become "established" in appamada just by deciding to be. But this sutta certainly helps to condition an appreciation of the importance of appamada. I find it interesting and helpful to reflect now and then on the various ways that being heedful and paying close attention to what I am doing might help to develop the indriyas.” This has also relevance to the sutta that you mentioned about the Buddha giving advice to Rahula. And you are right. It is MN 61 Ambalatthika-rahulovada Sutta. MN 61 Ambalatthika-rahulovada Sutta: Instructions to Rahula at Mango Stone Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.061.than.html Some excerpts: "What do you think, Rahula: What is a mirror for?" "For reflection, sir." "In the same way, Rahula, bodily actions, verbal actions, & mental actions are to be done with repeated reflection. Then the Buddha instructed how to reflect whenever Rahula wants to do a bodily action, while doing a bodily action, and having done a bodily action. The Buddha gave the same instruction with regard to verbal action and mental action. Finally, the Buddha said: "Thus, Rahula, you should train yourself: 'I will purify my bodily actions through repeated reflection. I will purify my verbal actions through repeated reflection. I will purify my mental actions through repeated reflection.' That's how you should train yourself." -------------------- In both the suttas, the essential thing is appamada, bearing in mind your warning that we cannot become "established" in appamada just by deciding to be. You are lucky to have heard Sayadaw U Silananda (or other Sayadaws?) speak on it. I have cassette tapes by other Sayadaws such as Mahasi Sayadaw, Mogok Sayadaw, Mingun Sayadaw U Vicittasarabhivamsa, Ashin Janakabhivamsa., but not by Sayadaw U Silananda. Respectfully, Han --- Phil wrote: > Ph: It's a really helpful sutta, SN 48:56 : > #69250 From: han tun Date: Tue Mar 6, 2007 5:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Wonderful Dhamma talks by eminent Burmese monks hantun1 Dear Phil, You may not know that I started dhamma practice quite late in my life, when I was already outside Burma. Before that, I lived heedlessly, and I missed the opportunity to pay homage to these great Teachers personally. But I now have some of their tapes in Burmese. I am happy to note that you enjoy listening to talks by Burmese Sayadaws. Respectfully, Han --- Phil wrote: > > Hi all > > I just mentionned to Han that I enjoy listening > to talks by > Burmese sayadaws. This is one of the best sites to > hear them. I > think you'll find the straight-forward, warm and > humorous approach > to Dhamma very invigorating, even if you are not a > devotee of the > Burmese satipatthana method. > > The talks by Sayadaw U. Pandita are > interpreted/summarized into > English, the others are spoken in English. > > Sayadaw U. Silananda passed away a couple of > years ago. I imagine > Han has had the good fortune of meeting some of the > great teachers. > > Metta, > > Phil > > > http://vipassanasangha.free.fr/discours_mp3_anglais.htm > #69251 From: "Sukinder" Date: Tue Mar 6, 2007 5:55 am Subject: Re: Some Idle Thoughts on Nothing sukinderpal Hi Mike (and Phil), > True, there is a level of sila at which the five precepts can be "followed" > (whatever I mean by that), without much or any understanding about the Path. > But what does this then condition? Less occasions for transgressions? But > does this lead to panna? If followed with full force of self-view or any > idea that this is the basis for panna to arise later, then I don't think it does. Mike: To think otherwise is, I think, the 'síla' part of 'sílabbatupådåna', clinging to rules and rituals, as much to be avoided as 'kåmupådåna', sensuous clinging. In other words, I think the former can be easily mistaken as a remedy for the former. So it seems to me, anyway-- corrections welcome. S: Thanks for pointing this out. I didn't think in terms of silabbatupadana. Clinging is clinging, to me it matters little what is clung to, clinging is never the path. Natural yes, and always around to take on any object, including kusala of all levels. This can appear disheartening, especially when there then appears to be no way out. So Sila then becomes the object of lobha, but as you say the particular danger in silabbatupadana is of the illusion that this constitutes patipatti ======================== Mike: Great post in general, Sukin, I thought. S: Thanks for the encouragement. Metta, Sukin #69252 From: "Sukinder" Date: Tue Mar 6, 2007 5:56 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Some Idle Thoughts on Nothing sukinderpal Hi Herman, > When I say "understand characteristics", I do not expect beginners like > myself to have any real direct experience. But *understanding it is*, and > this is the "key". > > And so what else is to be understood at this level of understanding? That > realities here and now are no different from the realities there and then. > For example lobha here, say to a film, is no different from lobha there, say > to a quiet surrounding. Seeing here is no different from seeing there. > Thinking here is no different from thinking there. Herman: From my perspective, this is no level of understanding of any reality at all, but rather a level of misunderstanding. S: Is this similar to those perspectives which believe in the `inherent purity of mind', `Buddha Nature' etc.? :-) ====================== Herman: The notion that realities, seeing, lobha etc etc exist as categories apart from the situations in which they occur is conceptualisation and generalisation of the highest order. S: Not the `highest' order surely? There are concepts built upon concepts, some of which do not even have any point of reference in the conventional world. This particular categorization which you seem to reject, does at least have direct reference to `experience-able' *realities*, no? ====================== Herman: Summations like the above lack all contact with any present moment. S: Citta can only have one object at a time. When concept is the object, ultimate realities are not, but so what? As stated above, the concepts of Abhidhamma are about experience-able realities, hence always the possibility that when conditions are right, will lead to direct experience. One can't avoid thinking/ concept making, so while making this distinction about `thinking' and `direct experience' if one is somewhat dismissive of the former, one may end up `projecting' something else onto experience. ====================== Herman: But you are unable to avoid reality alltogether, aren't you Sukin, because you still must refer to thinking here as opposed to thinking there, and seeing here and seeing there. The reality is that seeing here is quite different to seeing there, and that thinking here is quite different to thinking there. S: `Different' in the sense that all realities arise and fall away completely in an instant. But as even you must believe in the above, differentiation is made between seeing and thinking, yet seeing is categorized as `seeing' and thinking as `thinking'. Is there then not a need for an Abhidhamma type of categorization by any other name? :-) ====================== Herman: And needless to say, the conditions for seeing here are totally different to the conditions for seeing there. Objectless seeing doesn't occur, and neither does objectless thinking. You are not talking about any reality here at all. S: Eye, visible object and contact, conditions seeing. Every instance of seeing is the result of kamma (different ones to be sure) and seeing consciousness is accompanied by the seven universal mental factors, not more, and not less. The characteristic, function and manifestation do not change. Is this not enough reason to put all instances of seeing into a general category? But you are talking about distinguishing the category from the actual experience since no two instances of seeing experience the same visible object, is this right? I do make the same distinction and so do other Abhidhamma fans. However I don't seen any reason to reject these Abhidhamma categories, in fact I am drawn to them more, for the reason that there is all the time, taking concepts of a higher and fictitious order for reality. ;-) But you reject it! :-/ ====================== Herman: If I were a dairy farmer and were to tell the Buddha that there are only dairy products, this is what he would say to me: "Just as when milk comes from a cow, curds from milk, butter from curds, ghee from butter, and the skimmings of ghee from ghee. When there is milk, it's not classified as curds, butter, ghee, or skimmings of ghee. It's classified just as milk. When there are curds... When there is butter... When there is ghee... When there are the skimmings of ghee, they're not classified as milk, curds, butter, or ghee. They're classified just as the skimmings of ghee. *You foolish man, who taught you this doctrine of dairy products? S: Right. Seeing is not hearing, is not smell, is not feeling, is not sati, is not thinking, is not contact, is not panna, is not metta, is not tanha, is not issa, is not uppekha, is not avijja, is not sound, is not wrong view……. And avijja conditions sankhara, sankhara conditions vinnana and so on. Furthermore seeing cannot arise without eye base and visible object. So who is saying dhammas are same? But then I'll also state that there *are* fixed laws of conditionality! ====================== Herman: Did I teach such blatant reductionism for the welfare of the many? S: Reductionism concerns relationship between concepts. The Abhidhamma is the result of direct knowledge, insight, enlightenment, therefore unless it is misunderstood, reductionism does not apply. ====================== Herman: Develop mindfulness now, dude!*" (DN09). S: So what is "mindfulness" now? How am I to understand it? :-) ====================== Herman: The bit between stars was found written on some bark in a clay jar somewhere, and not all pundits agree on it's authenticity :-) S: Don't want to guess what you mean here. Metta, Sukin. #69253 From: "Sukinder" Date: Tue Mar 6, 2007 5:57 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Some Idle Thoughts on Nothing sukinderpal Hi Phil, It is fine with me that you do not wish to comment. ================= Phil: I just want to thank you for posting your comments. You know, I can't afford to get into an ongoing discussion on these points now. S: I don't really enjoy discussing through the internet. Besides in general, I have an aversion towards reading, plus I am very slow at typing. ================= Phil: I hope I will someday because I have a lot of respect for the way you think things through. S: Do not be fooled by appearances. :-) Since about two years, I've developed a condition (partly due to a particular birth defect), where I feel pain and discomfort at the hip and waist was I to sit in one place for too long. So in addition to being slow at typing, it becomes a real burden to attempt at writing a post all in one sitting, there being a need to reflect on the answer and formulate a response. So what I have been doing is writing notes on the printouts and when I think I am done, I sit down to type. :-) In reality I am a very lazy thinker. If it takes more than one minute or two, I start to think about something else. :-/ Metta, Sukin. #69254 From: connie Date: Tue Mar 6, 2007 6:03 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (41) nichiconn Dear Friends, Part 1 of 3: Sundariinandaatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa / The commentary on the verses of Therii Sundarii-Nandaa Aatura.m asucinti-aadikaa sundariinandaaya theriyaa gaathaa. Ayampi kira padumuttarassa bhagavato kaale ha.msavatiinagare kulagehe nibbattitvaa vi~n~nuta.m patvaa, satthu santike dhamma.m su.nantii satthaara.m eka.m bhikkhuni.m jhaayiniina.m agga.t.thaane .thapenta.m disvaa adhikaarakamma.m katvaa ta.m .thaanantara.m patthetvaa kusala.m upacinantii kappasatasahassa.m devamanussesu sa.msarantii The verses beginning "[See the body, Nandaa,] diseased, impure" are Therii Sundarii-Nandaa's. She, too, is it said, was born in the home of [good] family in the town of Ha.msavatii at the time of the Blessed One Padumuttara. When she came of age, she heard the Doctrine in the presence of the Teacher, and she saw the Teacher place a certain bhikkhunii in the foremost position of women meditators. She performed a meritorious act and aspired to that position. She accumulated merit for one hundred thousand aeons, journeying on among devas and men. imasmi.m buddhuppaade sakyaraajakule nibbatti. Nandaatissaa naama.m aka.msu. Aparabhaage ruupasampattiyaa sundariinandaa, janapadakalyaa.niiti ca pa~n~naayittha. In this Buddha era, she was born in the Sakyan royal family. They named her Nandaa. Afterwards, because of the perfection of her figure, she was known as Sundarii-Nandaa (Beautiful Nandaa), the beauty of the district. [She was like the auspicious lady of the Kapila clan. There was no need for a lamp in a room of twelve cubits. She illuminated it with the radiance of her body, but Yasodharaa shone a hundred times more than she did.] Saa amhaaka.m bhagavati sabba~n~nuta.m patvaa anupubbena kapilavatthu.m gantvaa nandakumaara~nca raahulakumaara~nca pabbaajetvaa gate suddhodanamahaaraaje ca parinibbute mahaapajaapatigotamiyaa raahulamaataaya ca pabbajitaaya cintesi- "mayha.m je.t.thabhaataa cakkavattirajja.m pahaaya pabbajitvaa loke aggapuggalo buddho jaato, puttopissa raahulakumaaro pabbaji, bhattaapi me nandaraajaa, maataapi mahaapajaapatigotamii, bhaginiipi raahulamaataa pabbajitaa, idaanaaha.m gehe ki.m karissaami, pabbajissaamii"ti bhikkhunupassaya.m gantvaa ~naatisinehena pabbaji, no saddhaaya. Tasmaa pabbajitvaapi ruupa.m nissaaya uppannamadaa. "Satthaa ruupa.m viva.n.neti garahati, After our Blessed One attained omniscience, in the following order, he went to Kapilavatthu, Prince Nanda and Prince Raahula went forth, he went away, the Great Kind Suddhodana arrived at final quenching, and Mahaa-Pajaapatii Gotamii and Raahulamaataa went forth. And she [Sundarii-Nandaa] thought, "My elder brother abandoned the kingship of a wheel-turning monarch and went forth. He has become a Buddha, the foremost individual in the world. His son, Prince Raahula, has also gone forth, and my brother, King Nanda. And my mother, Mahaa-Pajaapatii Gotamii, and my sister[-in-law], Raahulamaataa, have gone forth. Now what shall I do in the house? I shall go forth." And she went to the bhikkhuniis' monastery. anekapariyaayena ruupe aadiinava.m dassetii"ti buddhupa.t.thaana.m na gacchatiiti-aadi sabba.m he.t.thaa abhiruupanandaaya vatthusmi.m vuttanayeneva veditabba.m. Aya.m pana viseso- satthaaraa nimmita.m itthiruupa.m anukkamena jaraabhibhuuta.m disvaa aniccato dukkhato anattato manasikarontiyaa theriyaa kamma.t.thaanaabhimukha.m citta.m ahosi. Ta.m disvaa satthaa tassaa sappaayavasena dhamma.m desento- 82. "Aatura.m asuci.m puuti.m, passa nande samussaya.m; asubhaaya citta.m bhaavehi, ekagga.m susamaahita.m. 83. "Yathaa ida.m tathaa eta.m, yathaa eta.m tathaa ida.m; duggandha.m puutika.m vaati, baalaana.m abhinandita.m. 84. "Evameta.m avekkhantii, rattindivamatanditaa; tato sakaaya pa~n~naaya, abhinibbijjha dakkhisan"ti.- Imaa tisso gaathaa abhaasi. She went forth out of love for her relatives, and not because of faith. Therefore, even though she had gone forth, she was still intoxicated with her own beauty. Thinking, "The Teacher disparages and finds fault with beauty. In many ways he shows the danger in beauty," she did not go in attendance on the Buddha. That is the beginning [of her story]; all the rest is to be understood as described in the story of Abhirupa-Nandaa {Sisters 29} above. But there is this difference: she saw the created form of a woman gradually overcome by old age, and the therii's mind was turned towards a meditation subject through paying careful attention to impermanence, misery, and no-self. Seeing this, the Teacher taught her the Doctrine by means of a suitable method, and he spoke these three verses: 82. Nandaa, see the body, diseased, impure, rotten. Develop the mind, intent and well concentrated, for contemplation of the unpleasant.. 83. As this is, so is that. As that is, so is this. It gives out a rotten evil smell. [It is] what fools delight in. 84. Looking at it in this way, not relaxing day or night, then analysing it by your own wisdom, you will see. RD: Behold, Nandaa, the foul compound, diseased, Impure! Compel thy heart to contemplate What is not fair to view. So steel thyself And concentrate the well-compose'd mind. *205 (82) As with this body, so with thine; as with Thy beauty, so with this - thus shall it be With this malodorous, offensive shape, Wherein the foolish only take delight. (83) So look thou on it day and night with mind Unfalteringly steadfast, till alone, By thine own wit, delivered from the thrall Of beauty, thou dost gain vision serene. (84) *205 An elaboration of two Pali words difficult to render adequately with brevity - ekagga.m susamaahita.m. Saa desanaanusaarena ~naa.na.m pesetvaa sotaapattiphale pati.t.thahi. Tassaa uparimaggatthaaya kamma.t.thaana.m aacikkhanto "nande, imasmi.m sariire appamattakopi saaro natthi, ma.msalohitalepano jaraadiina.m vaasabhuuto, a.t.thipu~njamatto evaayan"ti dassetu.m- "A.t.thina.m nagara.m kata.m, ma.msalohitalepana.m; yattha jaraa ca maccu ca, maano makkho ca ohito"ti. (Dha. pa. 150)- Dhammapade ima.m gaathamaaha. Saa desanaavasaane arahatta.m paapu.ni. She applied knowledge as a consequence of the discourse and was established in the fruition state of Stream-Entry. And to show her a meditation subject for the sake of the higher paths, he said, "O Nandaa, there is no hard core to this body, not even in the smallest measure. It is a smearing of flesh and blood, the dwelling place of old age, etc; only this." And he spoke this verse of the Dhammapada: A city is made of bones with a smearing of flesh and blood where old age, death, pride, and hypocrisy lurk. At the end of the discourse she attained Arahatship. RD: Then she, heeding the teaching, summoned up wisdom and stood firm in the fruition of the First Path. And, to give her an exercise for higher progress, he taught her, saying: 'Nandaa, there is in this body not even the smallest essence. 'Tis but a heap of bones smeared with flesh and blood under the form of decay and death.' As it is said in the Dhammapada: Have made a citadel of bones besmeared With flesh and blood, where ever reign decay And death, and where conceit and fraud is stored. ==== to be continued, connie #69255 From: "robmoult" Date: Tue Mar 6, 2007 6:06 am Subject: Re: Starting of a World System robmoult Hi Connie, Exactly what I was looking for. Thanks ever so much. Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connie wrote: > > > Hi, RobM, > try DN 27 - Agga~n~na Sutta, "On Knowledge of Beginnings"... one of my > favourites, btw. > peace, > connie > > I have heard on multiple occasions the traditional explanation of the > starting events surrounding the starting of a world system. Basically: > - Mahabrahma is first > - Retinue follows and taste the earth element of the new world system > - Retinue are reborn as lower beings because of the resultant craving > #69256 From: connie Date: Tue Mar 6, 2007 6:02 am Subject: Re: Plant life nichiconn Hi James, Herman, C: would you happen to be able to give a fuller quote from the Vinaya on plants being "one-facultied living beings"? H: Apparently there is reference to ekindriya jiva in Vin. IV, 183 (Oldenberg I, 137). This singular faculty is the sense of touch (from another source referenced as being Vin. A. 575) C: A = Commentary. I don't have it. But see See www.sacred-texts.com/bud/sbe17/sbe17005.htm -- <<....People were annoyed, murmured, and became angry, saying, 'How can the Sakyaputtiya Samanas break off young palmyra palms, and wear shoes made of the talipat leaves? The young palmyra plants wither. (By so doing), the Sakyaputtiya Samanas destroy vegetable life.' 2. The Bhikkhus heard those people murmuring in annoyance and indignation; and they told this matter to the Blessed One. 'Is it true' (&c., as in chap. 4. 2)? 'It is true, Lord.' The Blessed Buddha rebuked them, saying, 'How can those foolish persons, O Bhikkhus, [act thus]? For people believe, O Bhikkhus, that life dwells in a tree. Such conduct will not conduce (&c., as in chap. 4. 2, down to:) becoming estranged. Foot coverings made of talipat leaves, O Bhikkhus, are not to be worn. Whosoever wears them, is guilty of a dukkata offence.' >> So for now, I'm going to stick with "Plants are not living beings"; also note that the texts were/are preserved on palm leaves. thanks, connie #69258 From: han tun Date: Tue Mar 6, 2007 6:54 am Subject: Daana Corner (12) hantun1 Dear Dhamma Friends, This is taken from “The Practice of Giving” by Susan Elbaum Jootla. Susan wrote the essay in the following sub-headings: * The Factor of Volition * The Recipient of Gifts * The Objects to be Given * The Perfection of Giving * The Ultimate Goal of Giving The following is *The Objects to be Given* (the second half) Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ------------------------------ A story about Visakha, the Buddha's chief woman lay disciple, offers a delightful illustration of the results of large-scale charity. [3] When Visakha was to be married, elaborate preparations and gifts were arranged by her father. He gave her five hundred cartloads each of money, of gold, silver and copper implements. Then he decided that she must also take cattle with her. He gave orders to his men to allow out of their pen just as many animals as would fill a particular lane. When the cows has filed out and stood close together in that road, he had the corral closed, saying, "These cattle are enough for my daughter." However, after the gate had been latched securely, powerful bulls and milk cows jumped over the barrier to join the animals going with Visakha. Her father's servants could not keep them inside no matter how hard they tried. All these cattle came to Visakha because, in a former lifetime long ago at the time of the Buddha Kassapa, she had given a generous gift of five kinds of dairy products to a company of 20,000 monks and novices. As the youngest of the seven daughters of King Kiki of Benares, she continued to urge the monks to take more milk, curds, ghee, etc., even when they said they had eaten enough. That gift earned her the merit of having such a large number of cattle go along with her at her marriage in the lifetime when she was Visakha, and no one could prevent this merit from bearing its fruit. Material gifts of a religious nature would include contributions towards the erection of a new temple or shrine, gold leaf to help gild the umbrella of a shrine, or the purchase of a Buddha statue for a temple. The recipients of such gifts are the general public — whoever comes to the temple or worships before the Buddha image. Mundane gifts to the citizens of one's town would include donations to various welfare organizations, a contribution to a hospital or public library, keeping a neighborhood park neat and clean. If one does not merely contribute funds for such projects but provides physical labor as well, the kammic results will be even greater. Gifts of this sort can be quite meritorious if preceded, accompanied and followed by pure mental volitions. Note [3] - Buddhist Legends, 2:67-68. ------------------------------ This is the end of *The Objects to be Given* *The Perfection of Giving* will start from next post. Han #69259 From: Dhammanando Bhikkhu Date: Tue Mar 6, 2007 6:50 am Subject: Re: Plant life dhammanando_... Hi all, This is a re-post as the formatting of the last one was a mess. > Connie: "For people believe, O Bhikkhus, that life dwells in a tree." This is the key point. The belief that plants and the earth possess one faculty (either kaayindriya or jiivitindriya) was held by the Niga.n.thas (Jains) and acelakas (non-affiliated naked ascetics); since these were the largest and oldest sama.na groups at that time, their beliefs had passed into common lore and so any sama.na worth his salt was expected to conform to them (by keeping the rains retreat so as not to tread on growing crops, by not digging the earth or damaging plants, and by taking various precautions when building a hut). But nowhere does the Buddha actually concede that these beliefs were correct and in the Vinaya commentaries they are dismissed as "mere imagining". Best wishes, Dhammanando #69260 From: connie Date: Tue Mar 6, 2007 10:12 am Subject: Re: New Group nichiconn Thanks, Sarah (and Nina) S: ... I just read the following in one of Nina's posts in the Vism corner (#68892): "The Tiika refers to a sutta text of the Samyutta Nikaya (IV) : ‘When he, bhikkhus, takes delight in and is enslaved by the image (the outer appearance) of something, and his consciousness is fixed on this and when he takes delight in and is enslaved by the details, at the time when he is about to die, then it happens that he will go to one of two destinies: he will be reborn in hell or in the womb of an animal.’" .... S: I expect this was what Connie was referring to. Does anyone know which sutta in SN (1V) it is referring to? C: That's it! I knew I'd just recently read it somewhere. Anyway, #235 (8) The Exposition on Burning (pp1233-6 in the 2000 PTS Connected Discourses) << ...better for the eye faculty to be lacerated by a red-hot iron pin burning, blazing, and glowing, than for one to grasp the sign through the features in a form cognizable by the eye. For if consciousness should stand tied to gratification in the sign or in the features, and if one should die on that occasion, it is possible that one will go to one of two destinations: hell or the animal realm. Having seen this danger, I speak thus. >> similarly for the ear, nose, tongue & body faculties. << "It would be better, bhikkhus, to sleep -- for sleep, I say is barren for the living, fruitless for the living, insensibility for the living -- than to think such thoughts as would induce one who has come under their control to bring about a schism in the Sa"ngha. [170] Having seen this danger, I speak thus. >> So, right, "possibly" and not "necessarily" going to a bad bourn with respect to those indulges, but for sure straight to hell from 'bringing about a schism' (which, no, laity can't do). {Don't want to be taken to task for pulling only select parts ;)} continuing... << In regard to this, bhikkhus, the instructed noble disciple reflects thus: 'Leave off lacerating the eye faculty with a red-hot iron pin burning, blazing, and glowing. Let me attend only to this: So the eye is impermanent, forms are impermanent, eye-consciousness is impermanent, eye-contact is impermanent, whatever feling arises with eye-contact as condition -- whether pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant -- that too is impermanent. >> etc. with leaving off lacerating the other faculties and leaving off sleeping but attending only to impermance, down to: << "Seeing thus, bhikkhus, the instructed noble disciple experiences revulsion towards the eye, forms, eye-consciousness, eye-contact, and whatever feeling arise with eye-contact as condition -- whether pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant ... towards the mind, mental phenomena, mind-consciousness, mind-contact, and whatever feeling arises with mind-contact as condition ... Experiencing revulsion, he becomes dispassionate. Through dispassion [his mind] is liberated. When it is liberated there comes the knowledge; "It's liberated." He understands: 'Destroyed is birth, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more for this state of being.' >> peace, connie #69261 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Mar 6, 2007 11:27 am Subject: Rupas, Ch 2, no 1. nilovg Dear friends, Chapter 2. The Eight Inseparable Rúpas The four Great Elements of solidity, cohesion, temperature and motion are always present wherever there is materiality. Apart from these four elements there are other rúpas, namely twentyfour “derived rúpas” (in Påli: upådå rúpas). The “Atthasåliní” (II, Book II, Ch III, 305) explains about them: “... grasping the great essentials (great elements), not letting go, such (derived rúpas) proceed in dependance upon them.” Thus, the derived rúpas could not arise without the four Great Elements. But not all kinds of derived rúpas arise with every group of rúpas. However, four among the derived rúpas always arise together with the four Great Elements in every group of rúpas and are thus present wherever there is materiality, no matter whether rúpas of the body or materiality outside the body. These four rúpas are the following: visible object (or colour) odour flavour nutrition The four Great elements and these four derived rúpas, which always arise together, are called the “inseparable rúpas” (in Påli: avinibbhoga rúpas). Wherever there is solidity, there also have to be cohesion, temperature, motion, colour, odour, flavour and nutritive essence. As regards visible object or colour, this is a rúpa arising with every kind of materiality. It is that which is experienced through the eye-door. It is not a thing or a person. Visible object is the only rúpa that can be seen. Colours are different because of different conditions 1 , but no matter what colour appears we should remember that what is experienced through the eye-door is the rúpa which is visible, visible object. The “Atthasåliní” (II, Book II, Ch III, 318) gives the following definition of visible object 2 : ... For all this matter has the characteristic of striking the eye, the function or property of being in relation of object to visual cognition, the manifestation of being the field of visual cognition, the proximate cause of the “four great essentials” (four Great Elements). Visible object has as its proximate cause the four Great Elements because it cannot arise without them. However, when a characteristic of one of these four Great Elements, such as hardness or heat, is experienced, the accompanying visible object cannot be experienced at the same time. ****** Nina. #69262 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Mar 6, 2007 11:27 am Subject: Letters on Vipassana 9, no 6. nilovg Dear friends, Jonothan remarked that he is just as happy to know dosa as to know generosity, because in the end all realities have to be known as they are. It is very beneficial to be reminded that we should find out how much we mind about the realities which appear. It teaches us to become more sincere. Without noticing it we may have preference for particular realities and we may neglect being aware of certain other realities. We may want to know seeing but we are unhappy about the thinking which arises on account of what we saw, and thus we may neglect that reality. We dislike dosa, and thus we may neglect that reality when it appears. Khun Sujin said: "One can benefit from having lobha or dosa. One can see to what extent one has accumulated these realities. Isn't it useful? One can see one's akusala. Otherwise one could not know how much one has. No one likes it, but instead of disliking it why not use it as an opportunity for the development of understanding. It is very beneficial to understand akusala in detail. It always arises and it is there, from morning to night, but it is not understood as such. Paññå can see akusala as a conditioned nåma, so that the idea of self will be eliminated from all akusala of all levels. If there is no understanding of akusala how can one know whether one has less akusala or more? If there is no understanding of akusala can one say that one has developed understanding? " Several times during the discussions Khun Sujin pointed out that awareness can "slip in" very naturally, and then "slip out", just as naturally as thinking or hearing which slip in and out. They come and go and we do not have to do anything about these realities, since they arise because of conditions. We should understand the nature of anattå of awareness instead of trying to have awareness. Are we glad when there is a moment of awareness? That shows our clinging. There are many conditions necessary for the arising of awareness, such as reading, discussing and considering the characteristic of the reality which appears as not self. When we remember that many conditions are necessary we shall be less inclined to induce sati. If one tries hard to make awareness arise one thinks that there is awareness, but it is not right awareness. ******** Nina. #69263 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Mar 6, 2007 11:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Visuddhimagga, Ch XVII, 137 nilovg Hi Larry, The snese-door adverting-consciousness and the mind-door adverting consciousness are ahetuka kiriyacittas that are part of a process. Without these there could not be vipaakacittas such as seeing, hearing, or kusala cittas and akusala cittas which can motivate new kamma. They are part of samsara. Nina. Op 6-mrt-2007, om 0:26 heeft Larry het volgende geschreven: > N:" The arahat who has mahaa-kiriyacittas instead of mahaa-kusala > cittas is freed from the cycle. He does not commit kamma that can > produce vipaaka. But he can still have vipaakacittas produced by > former kamma, committed before he was an arahat." > > L: What about the other kiriya cittas? #69264 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Mar 6, 2007 11:57 am Subject: Q. rupas, introduction, nimitta. nilovg Dear Scott, -------- Scott: Okay, this is a good clarification. Nimitta has a characteristic; it is a sign. The colour that is cognised is colour but not the colour 'now'. --------- N: We could say: the *characteristic* of colour appears now. Only we cannot pinpoint it is characteristics of which of the many colours arising and falling away. But then we are thinking instead of attending to what appears now. Kh Sujin said: 'No need to think: it has fallen away.' -------- N: "Kh Sujin said that even when vipassana ~naa.na experiences the arising and falling away of a dhamma, there is still a short moment of thinking of a nimitta in between. She said: . She said that only nibbaana is animitta, without nimitta." Scott: The above adds to the meaning of nimitta but, not clearly understanding nibbaana, I can't say in what way. ------- N: But it is good to know that there is also animitta. -------- I guess nimitta is a natural consequence of the conditioned elements whose function is perception and the conditioned elements which are objects of this perception. My guess also is that when nibbaana becomes the object of the dhammas with perception as function - the magga-phala-citta, for example - nibbaana then must be seen directly since it has no nimitta. I've probably got that one wrong. ------ N: The term perception does not make it so clear. You think of sa~n~naa which remembers what has fallen away? -------- N: Yes I think of pa.tipatti, practice, I am discussing with James. People think it means doing something specific. What do you think? Scott: Well, as to what I think, not much that is right. I've pasted back in your definitions based on the Paa.li: The 'following a certain way' and the 'towards' mean to me that, in accordance with Dhamma, etc., citta inclines towards a particular way - and that would be in the direction of Nibbaana - from moment to moment. This is 'practise'. ------- N: I like this, We have to consider the kusala citta with pa~n~naa. When people do not realize this one gets all sorts of misunderstanding what practice is. ------- S: Naturally I don't see it as someone who does something. I think, as you note above, learning, from time to time, to be aware of the dhammas which present themselves is pa.tipatti. It happens naturally. It is developed and is strengthened and shows up at the level of each citta (in the mental factors which are conascent) one after the other. ------- N: This is well said: from time to time. Not ongoing mindfulness. It is developed and strengthened. When sati and pa~n~naa are accumulated little by little they become stronger, no doubt about it. Perhaps people underestimate considering the present moment and also accumulated conditions for sati and pa~n~naa. Nina. #69265 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Mar 6, 2007 12:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q Rupas, Ch 1, no 2 nilovg Hi Connie, you make me laugh and laughing is good for health. Nina. Op 6-mrt-2007, om 4:24 heeft connie het volgende geschreven: > If Lodewijk and the doctor are after you, I guess I'll just have to > get in > line! Do take care. And don't answer back! > Thanks for all the "nutrition". Looking forward to more. #69266 From: connie Date: Tue Mar 6, 2007 12:17 pm Subject: Re: Starting of a World System nichiconn Hi RobM, Herman, All, Glad you found it, RobM! Hope the classes (and everything) are going well. You might also be interest in taking a look at Rupert Gethin's "Cosmology and meditation: from the Agganna-Sutta to the Mahayana." ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-EPT/rupert.htm short quote: << Acts of body and speech are, as it were, the epiphenomena of particular kinds of mentality; they are driven by specific psychological states. In a very real sense acts of body and speech are acts of will. Thus the hierarchy is essentially one of certain kinds of mentality (understood as kamma) being related to certain levels of existence; this is most explicit in the case of the various jhanas and Brahma realms. This way of thinking demonstrates the general principle of an equivalence or parallel in Buddhist thought between psychology on the one hand and cosmology on the other. >> peace, connie Exactly what I was looking for. Thanks ever so much. > try DN 27 - Agga~n~na Sutta, "On Knowledge of Beginnings" #69267 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Mar 6, 2007 12:58 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Rupas Ch 1, no 8. upasaka_howard Hi, TG - -----Original Message----- I understand rupas to be phenomena (i.e., elements of experience) other than mental operations and characteristics. With metta, Howard Hi Howard What I was really trying to get answers to was whether nama and rupa were just categories referring to elements under their headings. If so, that would mean nama and rupa were not phenomena, but just ways of classifying or categorizing the phenomena/elements that come under their heading. I don't think your answer was in response to that issue. But maybe it was now that I look at it closer. TG ================================ I understand the names 'nama' and 'rupa' to be names of categories of phenomena, but each category consists of specific phenomena. With metta, Howard #69268 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Tue Mar 6, 2007 2:11 pm Subject: Our selves egberdina Hi all, Yesterday I wrote about knowing the difference between self/not-self as the origin of the object of experience. One can know that an object of a thought, say a tree in the street, originates with "myself", and that seeing and feeling a tree in the street does not. There is not only this sense of myself. There is also a sense of ourselves. We are not alone. Most understand that there are others, who, like myself, can know their private world, as well as the public world that we all know. We, each in turn, know others this way, and are known by others this way. A person who does not understand the difference ourselves / not-self, will behave like a psychopath. They do not behave differently to a tree than a human being. They have no shame or guilt, nor understand that the thoughts that originate with themselves also originate with other selves. The sense of myself very much depends on the sense of ourselves. We do not relate to all other selves in the same way. We are not global in our understanding and action, but tribal. Each myself is defined by the tribes which select them, and which they in turn select. We are members of various tribes. We are known, and know ourselves, by our family group, our workgroup, our social groups, our religious groups, our sport groups, our town groups, our national groups, our language groups etc etc. Kind Regards Herman #69269 From: TGrand458@... Date: Tue Mar 6, 2007 9:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Rupas, Ch 1, no 3. TGrand458@... Hi Sarah In a message dated 3/6/2007 3:33:36 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: TG: I generally agree with the above explanation except that "water" is not > an element. Water is a "predominance of coalescence" that is composed of > all the Four Great Elements. .... S: I'd like to raise two questions on your comment about 'water' not being an element. Firstly, are you making this comment about a concept of water or about the reality/element of water (apo dhatu) as found in the texts? TG: Because "water" is composed of all the elements, "the whole of water" is not a single element. My view is that Water is used in the Suttas to exemplify the predominance of coalescence. Therefore I think of it more as a metaphor when used in the Suttas. And yes, this is not a "rote" understanding of the term as used in the Suttas. I have come to conclusions regarding the Four Great Elements based on all I know on the topic, including the Suttas and Abhidhamma. But most importantly, I can realize it functioning in nature both conceptually and experientially. From a recent installment of Nina's on rupas, it is clear what is meant by 'Water' or the 'Element of Water' in context: "The types of rúpa other than the four Great Elements depend on these four rúpas and cannot arise without them. They are the following rúpas: the Element of Earth or solidity the Element of Water or cohesion the Element of Fire or heat the Element of Wind (air) or motion Earth, Water, Fire and Wind do not in this context have the same meaning as in conventional language, neither do they represent conceptual ideas as we find them in different philosophical systems." ***** Secondly, as someone who has tremendous confidence in the suttas, how do you read the many references in them to water element if water is not an element? For example: On Elements in MN 10, Satipatthana Sutta: " Again, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu reviews this same body, however it is placed, however disposed, as consisting of elements thus: 'In this body there are the earth element, the *water* element, the fire element, and the air element.' " ***** >Water is a "symbol/metaphor" for coalescence. Of > course we CAN touch water but as you say, it is the other three elements > generating the sensation, not coalescence. .... S: Even so, apo dhatu (water element) with its characteristic of cohesion or coalescence is a distinct element or reality, knowable by the very wise. I agree with you that what we take for the experience of water is not the experience of this element. ... > Coalescence is an INWARD > force/motion and therefore is always "moving away" from the sense bases and therefore > cannot make contact. ... S: Where do we read about this 'INWARD force/motion' in the suttas? Also, when you refer to 'energy' and the 'experience of energy', what is the reality/element as found in the suttas with which this corresponds? Are you referring to the experience of vayo dhatu (air element)? TG: I have observed the forces in nature and have arrived at the conclusion that "Coalescence" is the best term for "the water element." Hence, for one abhidhammic reason ... the water element "can't be touched." Why do you think the water element "can't be touched"? I think its because...as an inward force, it is moving away from other phenomena, sense bases, etc. I'd be very interested to hear why you think the water element can't be touched/experienced? Take care. Metta, Sarah TG #69270 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Tue Mar 6, 2007 2:42 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The biological self egberdina Hi Connie, Thanks for your posts. Please don't feel any obligation to discuss what you don't want to, and please accept that in discussing I am only trying to draw out the implications of what we both are saying :-) . On 06/03/07, connie wrote: > Hi Herman, > > H: The word disorder suggests there is a right way for things to be, and > wrong ways for things to be. From what POV would that rightness/wrongness > come? > > C: Disturbance, then, instead of disorder; a change in the status quo that > negatively impacts the health to a greater degree than we're used to or > like. We probably agree the dislike (POV) comes from my wanting things to > be one way or another and it just not happening. Just like the rest of the > folks who don't care for dis-ease of one kind or another, I reckon. Yes, and that status quo is based on a sense of myself. Smallpox is not myself. We act in the world to prolong myself, and smallpox functions to prolong itself. The universe doesn't particularly give a hoot whether we kill smallpox, or smallpox kills us. But we care, most of the time. > > H: Control doesn't have to be thought or known or conceived of, to be in > effect. Conditions exert control, whether conscious or not. However, some > conditions do become the object of consciousness. Such as intention. And > when that consciousness is mindful consciousness, there is nothing > determining about intention. > > C: Care to elaborate on that last bit? Maybe say what is meant by intent > or intention? By intention I mean getting ready to act, to do something. Benjamin Libet did some very clever reseach which shows that the neural potential for action happens 1/2 second before there is any consciousness of the intention to act. A nice, scientific refutation that there is an agent that intends to act :-) Intention, for all intents and purposes, comes out of the blue, it is not mediated by any consciousness. But interestingly enough, he could find no neural correlate for an intention being vetoed, ie not proceeding to action. It seems that intention is not vetoed by an intention to veto it. But intentions can be vetoed, once they enter consciousness. So when I say that there is nothing determining about intention, I mean that the arising out of the blue of an intention does not necessarily translate into action. And that is where mindfulness comes in. In the absence of mindfulness, there is no conscious review and veto of whatever is intended. Intention always translates into action. Some may consider this to be "natural". But in a mindful state, consciousness asks again and again "what am I going to do next?" and actively selects from what comes out of the blue. A mindful being makes their life, it doesn't happen to them. Hope this clarifies. If not, you know where to find me :-) Kind Regards Herman #69271 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Tue Mar 6, 2007 3:15 pm Subject: Re: Antw.: [dsg] Q. Rupas, Ch 1, no 2 egberdina Hi RobK (not KenH :-), On 06/03/07, rjkjp1 wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@... wrote: > > Western science is so limited compared to Dhamma- so many models with > complex abstrations like quarks and photons, You are exactly right here. Science works with models, and abstractions. Scientists do not believe that there are actual electrons, protons, neutrons to be found, these are explanatory devices to account for the behaviour of matter that we are all familiar with. but they never get to > actual elements like tejo and vayo. This is where things go terribly wrong. Because you believe that the Abhidhamma is not just a model of reality, which I believe it to be, you believe it is how it actually is !? You believe in actual, literal, essential paramattha dhammas. I, being of a scientific bent, seek to explain this, and I have come up with the following. You have approached the Abhidhamma in the light of what Buddhaghosa has had to say about it. And what Buddhaghosa has had to say about it is in stark contrast to the commentarial guidelines that actually come with the Abhidhamma, the Katthavatthu. In preferring Buddhaghosa, who wrote some 700 / 800 years after Mogalliputta-tissa directions about how not to read the Abhidhamma, you show a preference for a substantialist/essentialist, reductionist, absolutist kind of world. This approach is distinctly at odds with the way the KatthaVatthu directs the student to approach the Abhidhamma. If you interested in pursuing the matter, I point you to the following publication. A History of Buddhist Philosophy: Continuities and Discontinuities, by David J. Kalupahana; University of Hawaii Press, 1992 Kind Regards Herman #69272 From: "Larry" Date: Tue Mar 6, 2007 4:19 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Q. Visuddhimagga, Ch XVII, 137 lbidd2 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Larry, > The snese-door adverting-consciousness and the mind-door adverting > consciousness are ahetuka kiriyacittas that are part of a process. > Without these there could not be vipaakacittas such as seeing, > hearing, or kusala cittas and akusala cittas which can motivate new > kamma. They are part of samsara. > Nina. Hi Nina, Are these cittas included in the consciousness that is conditioned by kusala and akusala citta in a previous life? If so, what is the condition? Larry #69273 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Mar 6, 2007 5:53 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Rupas, Ch 1, no 3. buddhatrue Hi TG and Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@... wrote: > TG: > Because "water" is composed of all the elements, "the whole of water" is not > a single element. My view is that Water is used in the Suttas to exemplify > the predominance of coalescence. Therefore I think of it more as a metaphor > when used in the Suttas. And yes, this is not a "rote" understanding of the > term as used in the Suttas. > > I have come to conclusions regarding the Four Great Elements based on all I > know on the topic, including the Suttas and Abhidhamma. But most > importantly, I can realize it functioning in nature both conceptually and > experientially. I am very perplexed as to why you claim the water element isn't really a separate element but is really a metaphor for cohesion/coalescence of all the elements. There are many, many suttas which clarify the water element as a true and separate element. Additionally, recognizing the water element as a true and separate element is essential to enlightenment. From the Satipatthana Sutta: "...Just as if a skilled butcher or his assistant, having slaughtered a cow, were to sit at a crossroads with the carcass divided into portions, so a monk reviews this very body ... in terms of the elements: 'There are in this body the earth-element, the water- element, the fire-element, the air-element.' So he abides contemplating body as body internally...."(Walshe, 1995, p. 338.) The Four Elements are described in detail in: •the Mahahatthipadompama Sutta ("The Greater Discourse on the Simile of the Elephant's Footprint," MN 28) •the Maharahulovada Sutta ("The Greater Discourse of Advice to Rahula," MN 62) •the Dhatuvibhanga Sutta ("The Exposition of the Elements," MN 140) Metta, James #69274 From: connie Date: Tue Mar 6, 2007 5:53 pm Subject: Re: The biological self nichiconn Hey, Mr Red Car Driver, > conditions do become the object of consciousness. Such as intention. And > when that consciousness is mindful consciousness, there is nothing > determining about intention. > > C: Care to elaborate on that last bit? Maybe say what is meant by intent > or intention? H: By intention I mean getting ready to act, to do something. Benjamin Libet did some very clever reseach which shows that the neural potential for action happens 1/2 second before there is any consciousness of the intention to act. A nice, scientific refutation that there is an agent that intends to act :-) Intention, for all intents and purposes, comes out of the blue, it is not mediated by any consciousness. But interestingly enough, he could find no neural correlate for an intention being vetoed, ie not proceeding to action. C: Interesting, thanks. Nothing else to add... I just keep wondering (idly) about the relationship between intent and perception... so your "nothing determining about intention" caught my attention. see ya later. #69275 From: TGrand458@... Date: Tue Mar 6, 2007 1:22 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Rupas, Ch 1, no 3. TGrand458@... Hi James In a message dated 3/6/2007 6:53:53 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, buddhatrue@... writes: I am very perplexed as to why you claim the water element isn't really a separate element but is really a metaphor for cohesion/coalescenccohesion/coalescence o TG: I actually don't understand the last part of this line. I have no problem with the "water element" being called the water element. I just think it goes deeper than that. Abhidhamma certainly does. But my model is different from the Abhidhamma. Just how literally do you take "water element"? Would quick silver be the water element? I would say yes...predominantly. But if its only water you accept, I guess you might say no. Would liquid metal be the water element? Would ice be the water element? Would clouds be the water element? The same Sutta you reference list a whole bunch of "liquidish states" that are called the water element...spit and snot for example. If you want to accept these "surface expressions" as the heart of the matter, only what's listed in the text, that's cool. I'm trying to investigate the "underlying principles" of what would make something the "water element." ... trying to see in some depth how nature functions because of it, why things are impermanent due to it. I am taking a little tangent off the Suttas in this regard. The suttas really don't deeply investigate the Four Great Elements. But there are a handful of very interesting quotes from the Suttas and Patisambhidhamagga. There are many, many suttas which clarify the water element as a true and separate element. Additionally, recognizing the water element as a true and separate element is essential to enlightenment. From the Satipatthana Sutta: TG: Enough said for now. TG #69276 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Tue Mar 6, 2007 6:39 pm Subject: Re: Antw.: [dsg] Q. Rupas, Ch 1, no 2 rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > >. You have approached the Abhidhamma in the light > of what Buddhaghosa has had to say about it. And what Buddhaghosa has > had to say about it is in stark contrast to the commentarial > guidelines that actually come with the Abhidhamma, the Katthavatthu. > In preferring Buddhaghosa, who wrote some 700 / 800 years after > Mogalliputta-tissa directions about how not to read the Abhidhamma, > you show a preference for a substantialist/essentialist, reductionist, > absolutist kind of world. This approach is distinctly at odds with the > way the KatthaVatthu directs the student to approach the Abhidhamma. > > If you interested in pursuing the matter, I point you to the following > publication. > > A History of Buddhist Philosophy: Continuities and Discontinuities, by > David J. Kalupahana; University of Hawaii Press, 1992 >_________ Dear Herman I read professor Kalupahana any years ago - found his books confusing and misleading about what Dhamma is. I can't remember specific details but he seemed to try to mix Mahayana in with his ideas about what Theravada shoudl be. But I don't have a copy of his book so if you want to discuss more, please quote the relevant passages. Robert #69277 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Mar 6, 2007 7:00 pm Subject: Re: Plant life buddhatrue Venerable Dhammanando, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Dhammanando Bhikkhu wrote: > > Hi all, > > This is a re-post as the formatting of the last one was a mess. > > > Connie: "For people believe, O Bhikkhus, that life dwells in a tree." > > This is the key point. The belief that plants and the earth possess one > faculty (either kaayindriya or jiivitindriya) was held by the > Niga.n.thas (Jains) and acelakas (non-affiliated naked ascetics); since > these were the largest and oldest sama.na groups at that time, their > beliefs had passed into common lore and so any sama.na worth his salt > was expected to conform to them (by keeping the rains retreat so as not > to tread on growing crops, by not digging the earth or damaging plants, > and by taking various precautions when building a hut). But nowhere > does the Buddha actually concede that these beliefs were correct and in > the Vinaya commentaries they are dismissed as "mere imagining". > > Best wishes, > Dhammanando > This is compelling information, but I am still not convinced that plants aren't alive. To say that plants aren't alive just flies in the face of common sense! Plants grow from seeds, eat and drink, breathe, reproduce, and die-- that spells "alive" in my book. There is an article which deeply explores this issue, but it isn't available on the Internet (without a membership to research groups); however, I think I might be able to get it through one of the universities here in Taiwan. As soon as I have time, I will try to get the article in full and post it here on DSG. In the meantime, I found the first page of the article (a photo of pg. 252) and will post its contents here. Borderline Beings: Plant Possibilities in Early Buddhism Ellison Banks Findly Journal of the American Oriental Society, Vol. 122, No. 2, Indic and Iranian Studies in Honor of Stanley Insler on His Sixty-Fifth Birthday (Apr. - Jun., 2002), pp. 252-263 doi:10.2307/3087619 Abstract The ethic of non-violence in the Pali Vinaya and Nikayas indicates that the object of the ethic is humans, animals, and plants, thus suggesting that plants are considered living and sentient in the early Buddhist tradition. Recent work by Lambert Schmithausen, however, demonstrates that there are a diversity of views in the Buddhist tradition. This article explores the evidence in the Vinaya and Nikayas on this subject, concluding that plants have one sense, that of "touch," and that plants comprise the "stable, or non-moving" category of living beings. The question of whether plants are considered living and sentient beings in Pali Buddhism is brought to the fore by early Buddhist teachings on non-violence. In discussion of the Patimokkha, the Vinaya makes clear that monks and nuns are not to cut down trees (rukkha) in the course of repairing their lodgings, because in so doing they will cause injury to one-facultied living beings. Likewise, they are not to cut down young palmyra palms to wear as shoes, and are also cautioned against trampling down crops and grasses as they walk among alms-donors during the rainy season, as they may injure one-facultied living beings. This monastic prohibition is then echoed in the Majjhima Nikaya as a virtuous monk celebrates his practiced restraint from destroying seed- and vegetable-growth. If plants and seeds—including grasses, creepers, bushes, and trees— are, as one of the objects of the ethic of non-violence, not to be injured, then it would make sense that they would be included among those designated as living, sentient beings, then they should, concomitantly, be a part of the samsaric world and in some way subject to the lawas of kamma. The texts of the early Pali canon are, however, as Lambert Schmithausen has carefully shown, relatively silent about the place of plants in the scheme of samsaric life. While later Buddhist texts are clearer about plants being not counted as sentient beings, earlier texts have "no explicit statement declaring plants or even earth and water to be living, sentient beings," nor do they seem to have "an explicit…statement denying them the status of sentient beings." Thus, "plants…in Earliest Buddhism [are] a kind of borderline case." Pro-life prescriptions on plants in the Patimokkha refer, most likely, to prevailing social views rather than to those of the renunciants themselves. "This code," Schmithausen argues, "is not concerned with spiritual practice or even with morality proper…but, mainly, with regulating how monks and nuns had to behave in…. (Hopefully....to be continued) Metta, James #69278 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Tue Mar 6, 2007 8:52 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Plant life egberdina Hi Connie, and all, Just for the speculative heck of it :-) On 07/03/07, connie wrote: > Hi James, Herman, > > > So for now, I'm going to stick with "Plants are not living beings"; also > note that the texts were/are preserved on palm leaves. > The following is from Chapter 20 of Nina's Abhidhamma in daily life. "Those who have attained the highest stage of rupa- jhana and who wish to have no consciousness at all, can be reborn without citta; for them there is only a body. These beings have seen the disadvantages of consciousness; even happiness is a disadvantage, since it does not last." Is a being reborn in this way alive or dead? How could you tell if you were stepping on one? Is it OK to step on one? :-) Kind Regards Herman #69279 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Tue Mar 6, 2007 9:04 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Ariyan sangha egberdina Hi Jon, Thanks for the explanations and elaborations. It makes a whole lot of sense to me. We agree. Except one small thing at the beginning which I'll point out, but doesn't really require further discussion, because it is more my opinion than anything else. On 05/03/07, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi Herman > > > Right. There cannot be direct knowledge (of the kind spoken of in the > teachings) of the existence of the ariyan sangha, except by one who has > him/her-self attained enlightenment. I think the notion of "one" attaining enlightenment is contradictory. In the same way that "one" cannot realise nibbana or death. > > Hope this clarifies. How was your weekend? > They're always good, so that goes for the particular one in question as well :-) How's the jurisprudence business? Thanks for the above, including what I snipped, and kind regards Herman #69280 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Mar 6, 2007 9:35 pm Subject: Re: Rupas, Ch 1, no 3. buddhatrue Hi TG, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@... wrote: >> > Just how literally do you take "water element"? Would quick silver be the > water element? I would say yes...predominantly. But if its only water you > accept, I guess you might say no. > I'm trying to investigate the "underlying principles" of what would make > something the "water element." ... trying to see in some depth how nature > functions because of it, why things are impermanent due to it. I am taking a > little tangent off the Suttas in this regard. Perhaps I have stepped into a thread I have no business being in. ;- )) I haven't really followed this entire thread so I may be speaking out of turn. I am really not sure what the Abhidhamma has to say about the water element, and I don't really know who to trust in this regard anyway. Some see rupa as experience and some see rupa as experienced matter. This will greatly affect how they present the water element. Honestly, I'm not quite sure where you are coming from, but let me explain my position. The 4 Great Elements are not a scientific designation; they are a way to view properties of material objects. So, the water element could just as easily be called the liquid property. The water element doesn't include just water (H2O), but includes anything of a liquid property. Additionally, the purpose of this categorization, as taught by the Buddha, is to lead to nibbana- it isn't to describe the universe. Therefore, it doesn't go very deep in its analysis. It could be, TG, that you are examining this property in a scientific way rather than a Buddhadhamma way? An explanation of the 4 Great Elements, as from the suttas: •Earth elements may be either external or internal. Internal earth elements include head hair, body hair, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, sinews, bone, organs, intestinal material, etc. •Water elements may be either external or internal. Internal water elements include bile, phlegm, pus, blood, sweat, fat, tears, snot, urine, etc. •Fire elements may be either external or internal. Internal fire elements include those bodily mechanisms that produce physical warmth, aging, digestion, etc. •Air elements may be either external or internal. Internal air elements includes air associated with the pulmonary system (for example, for breathing), the intestinal system ("winds in the belly and ... bowels"), etc. Metta, James #69281 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Mar 6, 2007 10:56 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: New Pic! sarahprocter... Hi James, (Herman & all) --- buddhatrue wrote: > James: It's funny you ask that. In Taiwan, Buddhism, Taoism, and > Ancestor Worship are all rolled up into one.<....> .... S: Ah yes, a familiar picture:-) When we first came to Hong Kong and I'd chat with my (college) students, I got the impression very quickly that it was something one's uneducated grand-mother follows here.... Btw, w/r to your little rave in #69093, when have Nina, Jon or I compared 'parinibbana to annihilation' or suggested that the teachings can all be 'intellectually figured out' without FAITH (I prefer confidence)? 'A dry exercise in futility'......I assure you that none of us would be spending all our time here if it was this!! No need to respond - just registering a little protest as I expect you were waiting for one:-). Metta, Sarah p.s Herman, I knew you were a closet Abhidhammist all along....:-) And that takes a certain degree of confidence in the value for sure. ======== #69282 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Mar 6, 2007 11:03 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Where does Anger start from? sarahprocter... Hi James (& Nitesh), You and Phil both wrote kindly to Nitesh. --- buddhatrue wrote: > James: As I wrote to you, I don't believe in the practice of radiating > metta to oneself. It just doesn't work and the Buddha didn't teach > that (it can only be found in the Vism.). .... S: As you correctly suggest, metta cannot be 'radiated' (or shown) to oneself. It is a quality of kindness and friendship to others. When we're concerned with ourselves, our happiness and our welfare, it's attachment. People read the Vism as indicating metta should be shown to oneself, but I believe this is a misunderstanding of the text. Just as we'd like to be happy, so would others. So reflecting, we may have more metta for others. .... <...> >Simply focusing on yourself just reinforces > the ego and makes the mind more agitated. Rather than thinking and > worrying about yourself, radiate metta to others. This will calm your > mind- trust me. .... S: I agree with you that focusing on ourselves, being so concerned about our lack of skilful states, what we did yesterday, what we may do tomorrow and so on is a way to have more worry and agitation and to be more, rather than less, disturbed. Whilst showing kindness to others, the mind is calm as you say. Metta, Sarah ======== #69283 From: han tun Date: Tue Mar 6, 2007 11:12 pm Subject: Outstanding Women in Buddhism hantun1 Dear Sarah, Jon and others, I dropped in at the UN-ESCAP Conference Center to see the Outstanding Women in Buddhism Awards Ceremony. The program of the day (7 March 2007) is as follows: 08:00 – 09:00 hrs: Registration & Refreshments 09:00 – 09:10 hrs: Chanting 09:10 – 09:20 hrs: Welcoming Speech by Dr. Tavivat Puntarigvivat, Secretary General, Outstanding Women in Buddhism Awards Committee 09:20 – 09:40 hrs: Keynote Speech I, by Venerable Bhiksuni Jampa Tsedroen 09:40 – 09:50 hrs: Dhamma Sign-Language Song, by Tzu Chi Foundation 09:50 – 10:40 hrs: Keynote Speech II, by Venerable Bhiksuni Tzu Chuang, International Progress Society 10:40 – 11:00 hrs: Biographies 1: 2007 Outstanding Women in Buddhism 11:00 – 12:15 hrs: Lunch & Videos 12:15 – 13:00 hrs: Biographies 2: 2007 Outstanding Women in Buddhism 13:00 – 13:25 hrs: Awards Presentation Ceremony, Presented by His Excellency Rodolphe Imhoof, Ambassador of Switzerland 13:25 - 13:30 hrs: Congratulatory Speech by His Excellency Rodolphe Imhoof 13:30 - 13:45 hrs: Group Photo 13:45 - 15:25 hrs: Award Recipients’ Speeches 15:25 – 15:30 hrs: Closing Ceremony 15:30 – 16:00 hrs: Refreshments ****************************** List of Award Winners: 1. Madam Shiranthi Wickramasinghe Rajapaksa, Sri Lanka 2. Annabelle Zinzer, Germany 3. Bhiksuni Jampa Tsedroen, Germany 4. Bhiksuni Santini, Indonesia 5. Bhikkhuni Dhammananda, Vietnam 6. Bhiksuni Jing Ding, Yuan-Chao-Zi 7. Bhiksuni Tzu Chuang, Pho Kuang San 8. Bhiksuni Xiou Xiun, Jin-Shansi Temple 9. Bhiksuni Chang Heng, Malaysia 10. Dr. Bong Chui Lien, Malaysia 11. Bhikkhuni Sudarshana, Sri Lanka 12. Bhikkhuni Su Linh Nghiem, Thailand 13. Dr. Phayorm Wongsarnsri, Thailand 14. Maechee Kritsana, Thailand 15. Maechee Sukhi Jitjaroen, Thailand 16. Pavena Hongsakul, Thailand 17. Phanee Boonyakamol, Thailand 18. Prateep Ungsongtham-Hata, Thailand 19. Sujin Boriharnwanaket, Thailand This is just for your information. Respectfully, Han #69284 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Mar 6, 2007 11:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] re: rupas, introduction, nimitta. sarahprocter... Dear Scott (& Nina), You're having some good discussions....Just to add a little to Nina's comments here: --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: >> Scott: Do you > consider ruupa-nimitta (if one can put it this way) to be something > that is neither ruupa nor pa~n~natti - some sort of intermediate > thing? I'd guess that this can't really be so, if one follows the > adage that if it is not paramattha dhamma then it is pa~n~natti. The > above noted definition of nimitta shows what Kh. Sujin asserts - that > it remains true to the characteristic of the object yet is not the > object itself, for reasons already discussed. .... Sarah: You'll probably hear me asking just your same question in one of the discussions. The answer was along the lines that in the beginning we say that if it's not a paramattha dhamma, then it's pa~n~natti. In fact when awareness and understanding develop, they get closer and closer to the actual reality. But it's only at the 3rd stage of insight when the arising and passing away of namas and rupas are known for the first time that we can say it is the actual understanding of realities themselves. .... > Scott: ....See, here, how she states that nimitta is that which is > experienced when a reality is not. If it is not concept, which it > appears not to be, then what is it? This is interesting to consider. .... Sarah: Like the shadow of reality. Remember the fire-stick simile. There is an impression of the flame when it's whirled around, but as the understanding becomes more and more precise, it gets closer and closer to the actual flame. In another post, the question of understanding in the sense door processes vs the mind door process was being discussed. As Nina said, panna can arise in any process. However, in the beginning, it will only arise in the mind door process as I understand. Thanks for all your good comments and questions and transcriptions too! Metta, Sarah ======= #69285 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Mar 6, 2007 11:29 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Re: Rupas. Introduction, 1.vipassana ~naa.na. sarahprocter... Dear Scott, --- Scott Duncan wrote: > Kh. Sujin: <...> >Right now - its exactly like this > moment. Anything must be like this moment that pa~n~na can understand > it...its like two sheets of paper...very thin paper...when you drop > water - a drop of water - it goes through [to the] second one > instantly. Can you stop it? Can you help it not to be like that? It > has to be like that...the object has to be exactly the same as the > sense-door process... <....> > How did you understand the distinction that was made between the > experience of ruupa at the sense-door, and the subsequent experience > of the characteristic of that ruupa (but not that ruupa) at the > mind-door? .... Sarah: You gave some great transcriptions of the discussion, thank you! Yes, K.Sujin often used the analogy of the sheets of paper - very graphic. I like to think of the 'perfect photocopy' and she uses this now as well. See: 'Navattaba (Not so Classifiable) objects' in U.P. Scott:> I like the below: > > N: "... hard is hard, no matter there is no sati or there is sati. > When there is awareness hardness is still hardness, but then hardness > can be known as a reality, and the experience can be known as another > type of reality." > > In other words hardness - ruupa - exists whether it becomes an object > of sati or not. ... Sarah: And the characteristic of hardness is just the same whether it is known in the sense door or mind door process. I look forward to any more of your transcriptions/quotes/comments! Metta, Sarah ========= #69286 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Mar 6, 2007 11:44 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A cremation, just like now! sarahprocter... Hi Howard, (replying to #69078) --- upasaka@... wrote: > Hi, Sarah - > > Howard: > > This "just fallen away" usage to me is an "eel wriggling" term. <...> > S: Yes, it is only the present moment, but it can be referred to as the > 'not-so-classifiable' object discussed before. > ---------------------------------- > Howard: > Too vague for my taste. Certainly too vague, I should think, for an > abhidhammika's taste! > ---------------------------------- .... S: Ah, but then 'an abhidhammika' can follow up and get as precise a definition as required:-) I just referred to this same point in a post to Scott. It comes up regularly (and I think we've discussed it a few times before!!) ... <...> >S: Perhaps there's something for you to consider here as you play with > little > Sophie! > ------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Nah, couldn't do that - then I wouldn't be paying attention to the > present moment! ;-)) > ----------------------------------------- S: Yes, I knew you were joking, but still Nina has a good point. Anytime, any play, there can be paying wise attention (yoniso manasikara). No need to play less! The hardness is till hardness, the seeing is still seeing, the visible object is still visible object, the distraction is still distraction.....all very real;-) Hope Sophie's grown into a healthy toddler by now... Metta, Sarah ======== #69287 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Tue Mar 6, 2007 11:55 pm Subject: Kenh - bombs, monks etc rjkjp1 Dear KenH , Nina, Sarah and all, My spring vacation starts next week and I have more time to write. I have been meaning to reply to this post by Ken and today bring it to our attention. Realities and concepts, (providing the concepts are correct) are not in conflict. But Ken, sometimes when I read your posts I wonder if you miss this point. I was thinking of your past posts about abortions and bombing. Also I see no difficulty with the passage saying even Devadatta gained great merit by being a bhikkhu and wonder if your reply indicates you do? Robert In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ken_aitch" wrote: > -------- > KH: > > How, pray tell, could being a monk help with one's Dhamma > practice? > If anything, it would make it harder. All that rule keeping and > > alms gathering would take up a lot of time and energy. (Time and > energy > > that could otherwise be spent hearing and learning Dhamma.) > > R: > > Dear Ken > I met an ex monk in Thailand who had the same idea as you. He > disrobed because he wanted to have more time to practice. He stayed > in a hut for the next 25 years but never got anywhere as far as I > could see. > -------- > > So it would seem that being a monk didn't help, and not being a monk > didn't help. :-) This is because we are talking in concepts, aren't > we? And if we think concepts have any efficacy in path progress (or > in any other absolute reality) we should think again. > > When we are speaking in terms of absolute realities, a "monk" exists > only as a fleeting moment of pariyatti, patipatti, or pativedha > citta. I think there is a sutta in which the Buddha says that anyone > can be a monk in this way. > > --------------------- > R: > Even Devadata gained great merit by joining the order. > "" so by whatsoever method an increase in the virtue of living things > can be brought about, by that method does he contribute to their > good. If Devadatta, O king, had not entered the Order, then as a > layman he would have laid up much Karma leading to states of woe, and > so passing for hundreds of thousands of Kalpas from torment to > misery, and from one state of perdition to another, he would have > suffered constant pain. It was knowing that, that in his mercy, the > Blessed One admitted Devadatta to the Order. It was at the thought > that by renouncing the world according to His doctrine Devadatta's > sorrow would become finite that, in his mercy, he adopted that means > of making his heavy sorrow light.""" > -------------------- > > Thanks again, Robert, I won't pretend to know how to interpret that, > but I have great faith in the teaching of conditionality. > Undoubtedly, there can be nothing in the above to say that Path > consciousness or any other dhamma can be controlled by the mere > recitation of vows (or by any other kind of rite or ritual (belief in > the efficacy of concepts)). > > Ken H > #69288 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Mar 6, 2007 11:58 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Rupas, Ch 1, no 3. nilovg Hi James, I appreciate your post on rupas very much. Nina. Op 7-mrt-2007, om 6:35 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > The 4 Great Elements are not a scientific > designation; they are a way to view properties of material objects. #69289 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Mar 7, 2007 12:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] re: rupas, introduction, nimitta. nilovg Hi Sarah, I would hesitate about: in the beginning. There are many degrees of pa~n~naa, and we have learnt that the kusala javanacittas can be with pa~n~naa or without it. We do not know the conditions for the arising of this or that javanacitta, but there may be conditions for pa~n~naa even now, in a sense-door process. Or even a weak degree of understanding. When that arises in a mind-door process, we know that there are again sense-door processes, and if there is even a weak degree of pa~n~naa in a mind-door process, it can arise again in a following sense-door process. Nina. Op 7-mrt-2007, om 8:15 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > As Nina said, panna can > arise in any process. However, in the beginning, it will only arise > in the > mind door process as I understand. #69290 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Mar 6, 2007 11:19 pm Subject: Convergence on Feeling! bhikkhu5 Friends: Everything Converges on Feeling (Vedanâ)! The 3 Kinds of Feeling are: 1: Pleasant Feeling that is agreeable, delightful, & likable. 2: Painful Feeling that is disagreeable, repulsive, & distressing. 3: Neutral Feeling that is an indifferent neither pleasure nor pain. The 5 Kinds of Feeling are: 1: Pleasant Bodily Feeling that is agreeable & arised in the body. 2: Painful Bodily Feeling that is disagreeable & arised in the body. 3: Pleasant Mental Feeling that is agreeable & arised in the mind. 4: Painful Mental Feeling that is disagreeable & arised in the mind. 5: Neutral Feeling that is an indifferent neither pleasure nor pain. The 6 Kinds of Feeling are: 1: Feeling that is arised from visual eye contact. 2: Feeling that is arised from auditory ear contact. 3: Feeling that is arised from olfactory nose contact. 4: Feeling that is arised from gustatory tongue contact. 5: Feeling that is arised from tactile skin & body contact. 6: Feeling that is arised from mental mind & ideational contact. The cause of Feeling is Momentary Sense Contact. Ceasing of this momentary contact instantly ceases the feeling. The effect of Feeling is Craving, if the mind is untrained... Noble Awareness of arising feeling can prevent arising of craving. All Buddhist training of mind control aims at this crucial purpose: To break the automatic emergence of craving, when feeling arises! If the feeling is pleasant arises craving towards the object... Pleasant feeling is therefore the cause of desire, lust, & greed! If the feeling is painful arises craving away from the object... Painful feeling is therefore the cause of aversion, anger, & hate! If the feeling is neutral arises craving for neglect of the object... Neutral feeling is therefore the cause of ignorance, & confusion! Since ignorance, greed and hate are the three roots of all Evil and their absence are the three roots of all Freedom it verily confirms: Every state and all experienced phenomena converges on Feeling... Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Ceylon * <....> #69291 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Mar 7, 2007 2:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (39) sarahprocter... Hi James, --- buddhatrue wrote: <..> > There is > also another tale in the Canon of monks who carried this recollection > too far, created aversion for the body, and committed suicide. .... S: I think someone else was referring to this account recently and it reminded me of Hal's post before: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/51861 I remembered it because I discussed it in quite some detail with K.Sujin soon afterwards. Metta, Sarah ======= #69292 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Wed Mar 7, 2007 2:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Starting of a World System egberdina Hi, oh Considerate one, On 07/03/07, connie wrote: > Hi RobM, Herman, All, > I know you are only the messenger, so don't think I'm shooting you :-) > > short quote: << Acts of body and speech are, as it were, the epiphenomena > of particular kinds of mentality; they are driven by specific > psychological states. Mentality has no consequences. Action does. Ask your children and grandchild(ren). It is mentality that is epiphenomenal, until acted upon, when it becomes action, IMO. Cheers Herman #69293 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Wed Mar 7, 2007 4:08 am Subject: Re: Kenh - bombs, monks etc ken_aitch Hi Robert, ------------------------ <. . .> RK: > Realities and concepts, (providing the concepts are correct) are not in conflict. But Ken, sometimes when I read your posts I wonder if you miss this point. I was thinking of your past posts about abortions and bombing. ------------------------- I wrote those posts two or three years ago, and I don't remember them – except that they were a bit over the top. But any help in understanding the differences (and similarities(?)) between concepts and realities will be appreciated. ------------------------------- RK: > Also I see no difficulty with the passage saying even Devadatta gained great merit by being a bhikkhu and wonder if your reply indicates you do? -------------------------------- Well, it was not intended to. As I said, I have confidence in the teaching of conditionality: the story of Devadatta must be understood in terms of conditioned namas and rupas. Exactly how (which namas and rupas, which conditions) I don't know. I have not reached the stage at which the Buddha's conventional teaching makes the Dhamma less complicated. It is so much simpler when we talk about conditioned namas and rupas. --------------------------------------- > KH: > > How, pray tell, could being a monk help with one's Dhamma > practice? > If anything, it would make it harder. All that rule keeping and > > alms gathering would take up a lot of time and energy. (Time and > energy > > that could otherwise be spent hearing and learning Dhamma.) ---------------------------------------- That was the part that got me excommunicated. :-) The way I see it, one does not become a monk in order to gain something for oneself – not even to gain enlightenment. These days, the purpose of the "homeless life" is to pay respect to the Triple Gem and to preserve the Dhamma. The outward appearance of a monk (by virtue of his adherence to the rules) becomes a living illustration of an arahant. We will never meet an arahant in this lifetime, but, thanks to the Sangha, we can have some idea of how an arahant would look, act and speak. In other words, I think a monk ordains for the benefit of others – not for himself. Ken H #69294 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Wed Mar 7, 2007 4:25 am Subject: Re: Kenh - bombs, monks etc rjkjp1 Dear Ken Thanks for the reply, I will try to compose something over the weekend that we can all consider. In the meantime let's start with a challenging story to think about. Bahiya became an arahat while listening to a short sutta. The Commentaries say he was a bhikkhu when the Dhamma was declining in the time of Kassapa and with 6 other bhikkhu climbed a mountain, kicked away the ladder , and vowed arahat or die. One monk attained arahat, one anagami, and the rest died of starvation... How do we understand that, any takers..? Robert #69295 From: connie Date: Wed Mar 7, 2007 5:06 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (41) nichiconn Dear friends, part 2 of 3 -- Therii Sundarii-Nandaa: Tena vutta.m apadaane (apa. therii 2.3.166-219)- "Padumuttaro naama jino, sabbadhammaana paaraguu; ito satasahassamhi, kappe uppajji naayako. "Ovaadako vi~n~naapako, taarako sabbapaa.nina.m; desanaakusalo buddho, taaresi janata.m bahu.m. "Anukampako kaaru.niko, hitesii sabbapaa.nina.m; sampatte titthiye sabbe, pa~ncasiile pati.t.thapi. "Eva.m niraakula.m aasi, su~n~nata.m titthiyehi ca; vicitta.m arahantehi, vasiibhuutehi taadibhi. "Ratanaana.t.thapa~n~naasa.m, uggatova mahaamuni; ka~ncanagghiyasa"nkaaso, baatti.msavaralakkha.no. As it is said in the Apadaana: One hundred thousand aeons ago, the Conqueror and Leader named Padumuttara, who reached the far shore of all phenomena, was born. [He was] one who admonishes, who is able to instruct all beings, who is brilliant, skilled in teaching, a Buddha, who causes a large number of people to cross over, Sympathetic, compassionate, desiring the welfare of all beings. He established all the sectarians who came to him in the five precepts. His emptiness was undisturbed by sectarians, and it was ornamented by Arahats, unique ones having mastery. The Great Seer was fifty-eight ratanas tall, like a golden floral tier, possessing the thirty-two supreme marks. "Vassasatasahassaani, aayu vijjati taavade; taavataa ti.t.thamaano so, taaresi janata.m bahu.m. "Tadaaha.m ha.msavatiya.m, jaataa se.t.thikule ahu.m; naanaaratanapajjote, mahaasukhasamappitaa. "Upetvaa ta.m mahaaviira.m, assosi.m dhammadesana.m; amata.m paramassaada.m, paramatthanivedaka.m. "Tadaa nimantayitvaana, sasa"ngha.m lokanaayaka.m; datvaa tassa mahaadaana.m, pasannaa sehi paa.nibhi. "Jhaayiniina.m bhikkhuniina.m, agga.t.thaanamapatthayi.m; nipacca sirasaa dhiira.m, sasa"ngha.m lokanaayaka.m. His lifetime lasted one hundred thousand years, and while he remained ther, he caused many people to cross over. At that time, I was born in Ha.msavatii in the family of a wealthy merchant, gleaming with all kinds of jewels, and I enjoyed great happiness. I approached that Great Hero and heard a discourse on the Doctrine, which is undying, of the greatest sweetness, making known the highest good. Then I invited the Leader of the World together with his Order, and favourably disposed [towards him], I gave him a great gift with my own hands. I asked for the foremost position of bhikkhuniis who are meditators, falling down head first before the Wise One, the Leader of the World, together with his Order. "Tadaa adantadamako, tilokasara.no pabhuu; byaakaasi narasaarathi, lacchase ta.m supatthita.m. "Satasahassito kappe, okkaakakulasambhavo; gotamo naama gottena, satthaa loke bhavissati. "Tassa dhammesu daayaadaa, orasaa dhammanimmitaa; nandaati naama naamena, hessati satthu saavikaa. "Ta.m sutvaa muditaa hutvaa, yaavajiiva.m tadaa jina.m; mettacittaa paricari.m, paccayehi vinaayaka.m. "Tena kammena sukatena, cetanaapa.nidhiihi ca; jahitvaa maanusa.m deha.m, taavati.msamagacchaha.m. Then the Tamer of the Untamed, the Refuge of the Three Worlds, the Lord, the Charioteer of Men, predicted, "You will receive that which is greatly desired. "One hundred thousand aeons from now there will be a Teacher in the world, named Gotama through his lineage, a descendant of the Okkaaka clan. "There will be an heir to his Doctrine, a legitimate offspring of the Doctrine named Nandaa, a disciple of the Teacher." As soon as I heard this, I was filled with appreciative joy, and throughout my life I served the Leader, the Great Seer, with the requisites with my heart full of loving kindness. As a result of that virtuous deed and of my resolve and purpose, when I abandoned my human body, I went to the Tavati.msa realm. "Tato cutaa yaamamaga.m, tatoha.m tusita.m gataa; tato ca nimmaanarati.m, vasavattipura.m tato. "Yattha yatthuupapajjaami, tassa kammassa vaahasaa; tattha tattheva raajuuna.m, mahesittamakaarayi.m. "Tato cutaa manussatte, raajaana.m cakkavattina.m; ma.n.daliina~nca raajuuna.m, mahesittamakaarayi.m. "Sampatti.m anubhotvaana, devesu manujesu ca; sabbattha sukhitaa hutvaa, nekakappesu sa.msari.m. "Pacchime bhave sampatte, suramme kapilavhaye; ra~n~no suddhodanassaaha.m, dhiitaa aasi.m aninditaa. Passing away from there, I went to the Yaama realm. From there I went to the Tusita realm, and fromthere the Nimmaanarati realm; from there, the dwelling place of Vasavattii. Wherever I was reborn, thanks to that deed, I ruled there as chief queen of the kinds [of those deva realms]. Passing away from there, in human lives, I ruled as the chief queen of a king who was a wheel-turning monarch and of kings ruling a country. I enjoyed prosperity among devas and men. I was happy everywhere, journeying on for many aeons. In my final existence, I arrived in the delightful place named Kapila, and I was the irreproachable daughter of King Suddhodana. "Siriyaa ruupini.m disvaa, nandita.m aasi ta.m kula.m; tena nandaati me naama.m, sundara.m pavara.m ahu. "Yuvatiina~nca sabbaasa.m, kalyaa.niiti ca vissutaa; tasmimpi nagare ramme, .thapetvaa ta.m yasodhara.m. "Je.t.tho bhaataa tilokaggo, pacchimo arahaa tathaa; ekaakinii gaha.t.thaaha.m, maataraa paricoditaa. "Saakiyamhi kule jaataa, putte buddhaanujaa tuva.m; nandenapi vinaa bhuutaa, agaare kinnu acchasi. "Jaraavasaana.m yobba~n~na.m, ruupa.m asucisammata.m; rogantamapicaarogya.m, jiivita.m mara.nantika.m. "Idampi te subha.m ruupa.m, sasiikanta.m manohara.m; bhuusanaana.m ala"nkaara.m, sirisa"nghaa.tasa.mnibha.m. "Pu~njita.m lokasaara.mva, nayanaana.m rasaayana.m; pu~n~naana.m kittijanana.m, ukkaakakulanandana.m. "Na cireneva kaalena, jaraa samadhisessati; vihaaya geha.m kaaru~n~ne, cara dhammamanindite. Seeing my physical glory, that family was delighted. Therefore, my beautiful and distinguished name was Nandaa ("Delightful One"]. And I was of great fame, it being said, "She is the most beautiful of all the young women," except for Yasodharaa, in that delightful town. My eldest brother was foremost in the three worlds, and the youngest, [Nanda,] was also an Arahat. I remained alone as a laywoman. I was urged on by my mother; "O daughter, you were born in the Sakyan family. You are the younger sister of the Buddha. How can you remain in the home being without Nanda? "Youth is controlled by old age, beauty is to be considered as unclean, and even good health has disease as its end. Life ends up in death. "Now it will not be long till old age will overcome this beautiful body [of yours] resembling a mass of beauty, your delightful moonstone, your ornaments and decorations, heaped up like the best of things in the world, an elixer for the eye, making you famous for your merit and producing joy for the family of Okkaaka. Give up your home and practise the Doctrine in compassion, O blameless one." === to be continued, connie #69296 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Mar 7, 2007 5:21 am Subject: [dsg] Q. Re: Rupas. Introduction, 1.vipassana ~naa.na. scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, I appreciate the heads-up regarding na-vattaba. Let me put a bit more of the October 27, 2001 session up: Kh. Sujin: "...but when there is no concept, just the characteristic of reality appears succeeded because there is not only one process and then completely gone right now so it must be like this. When we do not think about reading or intellectual understanding, anyone who came to see the Buddha and he taught about seeing and hearing there was awareness for the person who went to see him and developed understanding naturally. No door-way pointed by Buddha but that person could become enlightened. So its not a matter of trying to be like Buddha who showed us the details of everything. Because now who knows that there is mind-door process [following] the sense-door process because mind-door process does not appear at all. But when its the vipassaana~naa.na, mind-door process shows up and exactly the same object as this but there is nobody, only the dhaatu. So that dhaatu experiences object like this. No suppression between the sense-door and the mind-door by thinking at all. It just experiences. So for your question, when we talk about concept, if the characteristic succeeds just suddenly, instantly, and it is the characteristic of paramattha dhamma, its said that it is paramattha dhamma and it is also present too, because its not the thought about paramattha dhamma but its the moment when paramattha dhamma has [succeeded] the appearance from sense-door to mind-door. And now by studying one knows that the ruupa that has arisen has fallen away instantly, so there must be the new one all the time. But we cannot know which is the object of awareness but the characteristic of it appears..." From 'Navattaba (Not so Classifiable) objects' in U.P., the following: Sarah: "The characteristics of the paramattha dhammas are known precisely, but by way of na-vatabba objects. To take this even further, the long-standing questions about how sense door objects or just fallen away namas can be known through the mind-door can also be answered in this way if we are precise. The characteristics are directly experienced, but in fact it is by way of being unclassifiable objects as past dhammas have gone. "Conversely the nimitta or concepts experienced by jhana cittas are concepts experienced by way of unclassifiable objects, similarly representing concepts of other objects. In fact all concepts can be classified in this way. So we have both paramattha dhammas and concepts classified by way of unclassifiable objects." Scott: I think the phrase 'by way of' is telling in relation to this na-vatabba, since I think it seems to indicate that experience makes use of this apparently intermediate sort of object - the unclassifiable object. In the above, Kh. Sujin notes that there is no suppression between the sense-door and mind-door by thinking. Is it fair to suggest that, since no thinking supervenes - that is, no concept - then this 'characteristic' which is not the 'original' ruupa but is nonetheless the characteristic is not concept and not ruupa but only 'characteristic'? And that this is the na-vatabba object in this case? In other words, the unclassifiable object is neither ruupa nor concept but some transitional phenomenon. I'd like to be precise here. I don't wish to stray into my own theory on na-vatabba objects, although there is lobha as I embrace the intricacy of theory here. I'll keep looking for more. Do you have any further references? Sincerely, Scott. #69297 From: connie Date: Wed Mar 7, 2007 6:21 am Subject: Re: Starting of a World System nichiconn Hi Herman, H: Mentality has no consequences. Action does. Ask your children and grandchild(ren). c: what about that nueral stuff you mentioned then? Biologically, only one of each... I just call Mac (Marisa's husband) my son. peace, c. #69298 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Mar 7, 2007 7:41 am Subject: Q. Vis. Ch XVII, 137 nilovg Hi Larry, ---------- >The sense-door adverting-consciousness and the mind-door adverting > consciousness are ahetuka kiriyacittas that are part of a process. > Without these there could not be vipaakacittas such as seeing, > hearing, or kusala cittas and akusala cittas which can motivate new > kamma. They are part of samsara. L:Are these cittas included in the consciousness that is conditioned by kusala and akusala citta in a previous life? If so, what is the condition? ---------- N: It is different. They are not produced by kamma, they are ahetuka kiriyacittas. They are conditioned by contiguity-condition. Each of them succeeds a previous citta according to a certain order in a process, niyama. They are also conditioned by object-condition since each citta that has to experience an object. Generally speaking, we can say that the fact that we are born in a sensuous plane of existence where we can experience sense-objects is due to kamma. Kamma produces the sense organs so that sense objects can be experienced in processes where also the ahetuka kiriyacittas perform their functions. ****** Nina. #69299 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Mar 7, 2007 8:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Our selves upasaka_howard Hi, Herman - -----Original Message----- Hi all, Yesterday I wrote about knowing the difference between self/not-self as the origin of the object of experience. One can know that an object of a thought, say a tree in the street, originates with "myself", and that seeing and feeling a tree in the street does not. There is not only this sense of myself. There is also a sense of ourselves. We are not alone. Most understand that there are others, who, like myself, can know their private world, as well as the public world that we all know. We, each in turn, know others this way, and are known by others this way. A person who does not understand the difference ourselves / not-self, will behave like a psychopath. They do not behave differently to a tree than a human being. They have no shame or guilt, nor understand that the thoughts that originate with themselves also originate with other selves. ---------------------------------- Howard: There is an apparent proximity, but an actual world of distance, I believe, between the saint and the pseudo-saint psychopath. ;-) ----------------------------------- The sense of myself very much depends on the sense of ourselves. We do not relate to all other selves in the same way. We are not global in our understanding and action, but tribal. Each myself is defined by the tribes which select them, and which they in turn select. We are members of various tribes. We are known, and know ourselves, by our family group, our workgroup, our social groups, our religious groups, our sport groups, our town groups, our national groups, our language groups etc etc. Kind Regards Herman ============================== With metta, Howard #69300 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Mar 7, 2007 7:23 am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 138 and Tiika nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 138. Intro: In this section the Visuddhimagga explains that at the time of death a sense object experienced through one of the sense-doors can be the object of the last javanacittas. It represents kamma or a symbol or sign of kamma that was performed before. ------------ Vis. 138: In another's case, at the time of death there comes into focus in one of the five doors an inferior object that is a cause of greed, and so on. ------------- N: Kamma or the sign of kamma can appear through any of the five doors. It can appear as colour, sound etc. The Tiika explains that it is an object proper for akusala vipaaka. Thus, the seeing of colour or the hearing of sound which are akusala vipaakacittas experience an undesirable object. The Tiika explains that because of one’s thinking (sa”nkappana), it can cause attachment (raaga). It explains that the object that is a sign of akusala kamma cannot be an object for kusala vipaaka, thus, a desirable object. Thus, here, in this case, the vipaakacittas that arise in the process just before dying cannot experience a desirable object (i.t.thaaramma.na). The Tiika mentions that a questioner asks how kamma that is performed and accumulated (katattaa upacitattaa) can bring a result as it were in the same process. It is stated in the Dhammasanga.ni that kamma that is performed and accumulated brings a result. The Tiika refers to a text of the ‘Dispeller of Delusion’ (II, p. 150, 151) where it is explained that in a sense-door process there is no performance of kamma, that this occurs only in a mind-door process. The javanacittas in a sense-door process are weak. The Tiika explains then that kamma performed in a preceding mind-door process produces result and that the object experienced as a sign of kamma in a sense-door process occurring close to death is similar to the object of the javanacittas arising in the mind-door process which are capable of producing rebirth and which are like the precursor to the last javanacittas. The ‘Dispeller of Delusion’ (p. 210) states, “Aacariya Aananda has said ‘ it should be understood that a present sign of kamma, which comes into the range of the five sense-doors, arises in continuity with the object of the kamma performed immediately [prior], and is similar to that object.’ ” N: The five javanacittas arising in a sense-door process just before dying are very weak, but they are conditioned by kamma that ‘was done and accumulated’ before and they experience a similar unpleasant object. --------- Text Vis.: When a series of consciousnesses up to determining have arisen in due succession, there arise impulsions numbering five because of slowing down due to the nearness of death, and two registrations. After that, one death consciousness arises making the life-continuum's objective field its object. At this point fifteen consciousnesses have elapsed, namely, two life-continuums, one adverting, seeing, receiving, investigating and determining, five impulsions, two registrations, and one death consciousness. Then, having that same object, which has a lifespan of the remaining one conscious moment, the rebirth-linking consciousness arises. ------- N: The visible object lasts seventeen moments of citta, and thus, when the rebirth-consciousness arises that object still lasts. Therefore the rebirth-consciousness has a present object. ----- Text Vis.: This also is the kind of rebirth-linking that has a 'present' object and comes next to a death consciousness with a 'past' object. This, firstly, is how rebirth-linking in an unhappy destiny with 'past' and 'present' objects occurs next to death consciousness in a happy destiny with a 'past' object. ------------- N: As to the past object of rebirth-consciousness, this refers to section 136, where it is explained that the last the javanacittas just before dying had a past object, namely evil kamma that was performed or a symbol or sign of it. ---------- Conclusion: The Tiika uses the term janaka kamma, kammma that will produce rebirth. A kamma that is done repeatedly can be janaka kamma producing the next rebirth. When someone is angry very often he accumulates anger. Anger can motivate a bad deed and this is then kamma that is performed and accumulated. Even slight akusala that is accumulated again and again is dangerous. It increases and can cause an unhappy rebirth. ********* Nina. #69301 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Mar 7, 2007 11:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Re: Rupas. Introduction, 1.vipassana ~naa.na. nilovg Dear Scott, we need more examples. Maybe it helps if I repost from my Tiika study:Vis. 135: We need more examples, and in the following sections you can read more about navattaaramma.na. Nina. Op 7-mrt-2007, om 14:21 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: > In other words, the unclassifiable object is neither ruupa nor > concept but some transitional phenomenon. I'd like to be precise > here. #69302 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Mar 7, 2007 11:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Rupas Ch 1, no 8. nilovg Hi T.G. I think you mean by these categories the five khandhas or aggregates. These are not abstract, not theory. Paramattha dhammas that are conditioned are classified as five khandhas. Anger is real, it is sankhaarakkhandha. Rupa is real, it is rupakkhandha. Nama and rupa are elements, which means: realities devoid of self. You found rupa not so inspiring. We read in the Netti (p. 105) about rupas which can be contemplated in brief and in detail In brief: the four great Elements, and the derived rupas. In detail, the Element of earth can be contemplated as twenty: the hair of the head, the hair of the body, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, sinews, bones, marrow of the bones, kidney, heart, liver, pleura, spleen, lungs, intestines, mesentary, stomach, excrement, or whatever other thing is hard, solid, is internal.... This shows that the element of earth is not abstract, it is real life. The text states that the earth element that is internal is the same as the earth element that is external. This makes us humble. It should be seen as not self or mine. Further on in the Netti ignorance is defined (p. 106) and after it states that it is ignorance of the four noble Truths, it is said: ignorance of the khandhas, the aayatanas, the dhaatus, of the past, of the future, of the past and the future. (the Thai translation is more complete). I find it inspiring to know that the rupas of the body are totally dependent on the four factors of kamma, citta, nutrition and temperature. When one day kamma stops producing the rupas of the body this body we find so important collapses. It can happen any time. Nina. Op 5-mrt-2007, om 21:21 heeft TGrand458@... het volgende geschreven: > This would mean that Nama and Rupa are not real states, not > elements, but > just categories whereby we group elements. They are just headings > that refer > to states, they are not the states "themselves." > > This would mean that there is no such thing as a "rupa," that > arises with a > group of qualities; but rather, there are qualities, that for > purposes of > discernment, we categorize as rupa. #69303 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Wed Mar 7, 2007 2:13 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Starting of a World System egberdina Hi Connie, On 08/03/07, connie wrote: > Hi Herman, > H: Mentality has no consequences. Action does. Ask your children and > grandchild(ren). > c: what about that nueral stuff you mentioned then? Biologically, only one > of each... I just call Mac (Marisa's husband) my son. > peace, No-one ever got pregnant from thinking :-) What kamma could be created in the arupa realms, do you reckon? I really appreciate having seen that photo of you there at dsg. It is amazing what a difference it has made to my perception of you. Not that I thought you were an ogre or anything. Kind Regards Herman #69304 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Wed Mar 7, 2007 2:30 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kenh - bombs, monks etc egberdina Hi Robert, On 07/03/07, rjkjp1 wrote: > Dear Ken > Thanks for the reply, > I will try to compose something over the weekend that we can all > consider. > In the meantime let's start with a challenging story to think about. > Bahiya became an arahat while listening to a short sutta. The > Commentaries say he was a bhikkhu when the Dhamma was declining in > the time of Kassapa and with 6 other bhikkhu climbed a mountain, > kicked away the ladder , and vowed arahat or die. One monk attained > arahat, one anagami, and the rest died of starvation... > How do we understand that, any takers..? > Robert > All seven of the fellows who climbed that mountain actually died of starvation/thirst. What they understood to be happening may have been different in each case, though. The very act of making such a vow as they did certainly demonstrates a deep dissatisfaction with life as they knew it. Kind Regards Herman #69305 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Wed Mar 7, 2007 2:40 pm Subject: Re: Lachen und Weinen (Was: Re: [dsg] Meditation (again) egberdina Hi Jon, On 05/03/07, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi Herman > > Then we are using the same term differently ;-)) No doubt :-) > > Yes, if there are jhana cittas arising there cannot at the same moment > be painful burning sensation. But whether that explains the situation > you mention here I'd rather not speculate about ;-)) > All right, you and me, down at the square with our respective tins of kerosene and box of matches, and we'll see who'se right :-) > > Pain that is not further reacted to is identical with any other > > display of Stoicism. > > > > You are talking here about reaction in the sense of something > manifesting as bodily conduct/movement, I think. There is no such thing > as 'no reaction', I believe [with the usual disclaimers added]. > I think that in the absence of contact there is no reaction, but with any contact there is always a reaction. I would agree that unless one was in the jhanas, there is reacting all the time. Kind Regards Herman #69306 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Wed Mar 7, 2007 3:15 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Kenh - bombs, monks etc rjkjp1 Dear Herman Here is the story http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/burlingame/wheel324.html @Story of the Past By "former blood-relative" is meant one who formerly practiced meditation with him. It appears that in former times, when the dispensation of the Buddha Kassapa was disappearing from the earth, seven monks, observing a change for the worse in the conduct of novices and others, their emotions deeply stirred, said to themselves, "So long as our dispensation has not yet disappeared, we will establish ourselves in it." So after reverencing their golden shrine, they entered the forest, and seeing a certain mountain, they said, "Let those who still cherish attachment for the life of this world turn back; let those who have rid themselves of such attachment ascend this mountain." Thereupon they set up a ladder, and all of them ascended the mountain, whereupon they kicked the ladder down and devoted themselves to meditation. After but a single night had passed, one of them, the elder of the assembly, attained arahantship. The elder of the assembly chewed a tooth-stick of serpent-creeper at Lake Anotatta, rinsed his mouth, brought food from North Kuru, and said to those monks, "Friends, chew this tooth-stick, rinse your mouths, and then eat this food." But this they refused to do, saying, "But, reverend sir, did we make the following agreement, 'All shall eat the food brought by him who first attains arahantship'?" — "We made no such agreement, friends." — "Well then, if, like you, we also develop something special, we will bring food for ourselves and eat it." On the second day the second elder attained the fruit of the third path, whereupon he likewise brought food to the monks and invited them to eat it. But they said, "But, reverend sir, did we agree not to eat the food brought by the chief elder, but to eat that which should be brought by a subordinate elder?" — "We did not so agree, friends." — "In that case, if, like you, we also develop something special, we shall be able by our own unaided efforts to provide ourselves with food, and we shall so provide ourselves with food." Thus did they refuse to eat the food he had brought."" Robert Of the seven monks, the elder of the assembly who had attained arahantship attained (final) Nibbana; he who had attained the fruit of the third path was reborn in the Brahma-world; and the remaining five, unable to develop something special, wasted and withered away, died on the seventh day, and were reborn in the world of the gods. In the period of this present Buddha they passed from that state of existence and were reborn in various households. One of them was King Pukkusati, one was Kumara Kassapa, one was Daruciriya, one was Dabba Mallaputta, and one was the monk Sabhiya. The term "former blood- relative" therefore refers to the monk who was reborn in the Brahma- world. ~ End of Story of the Past --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > > Hi Robert, > > On 07/03/07, rjkjp1 wrote: > > Dear Ken > > Thanks for the reply, > > I will try to compose something over the weekend that we can all > > consider. > > In the meantime let's start with a challenging story to think about. > > Bahiya became an arahat while listening to a short sutta. The > > Commentaries say he was a bhikkhu when the Dhamma was declining in > > the time of Kassapa and with 6 other bhikkhu climbed a mountain, > > kicked away the ladder , and vowed arahat or die. One monk attained > > arahat, one anagami, and the rest died of starvation... > > How do we understand that, any takers..? > > Robert > > > > All seven of the fellows who climbed that mountain actually died of > starvation/thirst. What they understood to be happening may have been > different in each case, though. The very act of making such a vow as > they did certainly demonstrates a deep dissatisfaction with life as > they knew it. > > Kind Regards > > > Herman > #69307 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Wed Mar 7, 2007 3:34 pm Subject: Our not-selves egberdina Hi all, I have been writing about identity, and how we all identify differently, and are differently identified, by the tribes to which we belong. In being a member of a tribe, we take on the views of that tribe. In being a member of a group, say Theravadin Buddhists, we do not only take on the views of our group, but we also reject the views of other groups. When it comes to the doctrines, the creed of a group, there must be something fundamentally different and essential about them that makes it that group and no other group. And we easily recognise such difference between Theravadin, Tibetan, Zen, Pure Land, Nichiren. And that is just in Buddhism. There are as many, and more, differences in creed within Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism. But the very noteworthy thing about all these different main streams, and sub streams within each, is that the contemplative experiences of all those so inclined within each streamlet, is near enough to identical. The expression of those experiences will of course vary, according to the idiom of the group within which the experience is expressed. But that there is this increasing identity of experience, with the progressive winding down of the discursive mind, should not surprise anyone. In a non-discursive mode of consciousness, the differences that are selected to make us ourselves are not in play. And what is left are the basic functions of the mind, which are common to us all, and yet not identified as ours. Kind Regards Herman #69308 From: "Larry" Date: Wed Mar 7, 2007 4:36 pm Subject: Re: Q. Vis. Ch XVII, 137 lbidd2 Hi Nina, Thanks for the clarification. Functional consciousnesses are part of the manifestation of kamma result but not directly a result of kamma like vipaka citta. Larry --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Larry, > ---------- >... Generally speaking, we can say that the fact that we are born in a > sensuous plane of existence where we can experience sense-objects is > due to kamma. Kamma produces the sense organs so that sense objects > can be experienced in processes where also the ahetuka kiriyacittas > perform their functions. > ****** #69309 From: TGrand458@... Date: Wed Mar 7, 2007 11:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Rupas Ch 1, no 8. TGrand458@... In a message dated 3/7/2007 12:31:48 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi T.G. I think you mean by these categories the five khandhas or aggregates. These are not abstract, not theory. Paramattha dhammas that are conditioned are classified as five khandhas. Anger is real, it is sankhaarakkhandha. Rupa is real, it is rupakkhandha. Nama and rupa are elements, which means: realities devoid of self. You found rupa not so inspiring. We read in the Netti (p. 105) about rupas which can be contemplated in brief and in detail In brief: the four great Elements, and the derived rupas. In detail, the Element of earth can be contemplated as twenty: the hair of the head, the hair of the body, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, sinews, bones, marrow of the bones, kidney, heart, liver, pleura, spleen, lungs, intestines, mesentary, stomach, excrement, or whatever other thing is hard, solid, is internal.... Hi Nina I don't think you understood my post. Thanks for the reply though. TG #69310 From: "Larry" Date: Wed Mar 7, 2007 4:48 pm Subject: Re: Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 138 and Tiika lbidd2 Hi Nina, N: "Kamma or the sign of kamma can appear through any of the five doors. It can appear as colour, sound etc." L: Is there a difference between a kamma and a sign of kamma? Larry #69311 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Mar 7, 2007 5:02 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Kenh - bombs, monks etc buddhatrue Hi Herman, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > > All seven of the fellows who climbed that mountain actually died of > starvation/thirst. Actually, the monk who achieved arahanthood probably just slipped into paranibbana. Arahants don't die; they enter paranibbana (I am going to keep posting this fact to this group until everyone gets sick of it! LOL!) For example, the Buddha didn't die of natural causes. He got sick, gave last instructions, entered the jhanas and slipped into paranibbana. In essence, and arahant "let's go" of the five khandas. If, for example, a person achieves arahanthood but cannot become a monk (for whatever reason) he/she will simply let go of the five khandas and enter paranibbana (as the householder life- owning property and possessions, raising a family, etc.- is incompatible with the enlightened state). What they understood to be happening may have been > different in each case, though. James: Yes, this is true. But, again, the arahant didn't die. The very act of making such a vow as > they did certainly demonstrates a deep dissatisfaction with life as > they knew it. James: Yes, this is true; but I also question the wisdom of such a decision. The human life is a precious life as it allows one to follow and learn the Dhamma. I don't recall the Buddha ever instructing monks to risk their lives in the pursuit of enlightenment. Actually, he taught the exact opposite. > > Kind Regards > > > Herman > Metta, James #69312 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Mar 7, 2007 5:06 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Kenh - bombs, monks etc buddhatrue Hi Robert and Herman, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > > Dear Herman > Here is the story > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/burlingame/wheel324.html > @Story of the Past I just posted to Herman before reading this post. Interesting details. Metta, James #69313 From: TGrand458@... Date: Wed Mar 7, 2007 12:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Rupas, Science and Buddhism TGrand458@... Hi All In a message dated 3/6/2007 10:36:20 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, buddhatrue@... writes: Honestly, I'm not quite sure where you are coming from, but let me explain my position. The 4 Great Elements are not a scientific designation; they are a way to view properties of material objects. So, the water element could just as easily be called the liquid property. The water element doesn't include just water (H2O), but includes anything of a liquid property. Additionally, the purpose of this categorization, as taught by the Buddha, is to lead to nibbana- it isn't to describe the universe. Therefore, it doesn't go very deep in its analysis. It could be, TG, that you are examining this property in a scientific way rather than a Buddhadhamma way? TG: Science is the study of natural laws, the principles of nature. It tries to determine how things work. Science does not necessarily have the agenda of overcoming suffering. Buddhism does have the agenda of overcoming suffering. Other than that distinction, isn't what we do in Buddhism to try to observe and discover the actual nature of what is taking place? Most of us in this group might think Buddhism superior than modern science in its ability to reveal the truth. I do anyway. Doesn't that make Buddhism the greatest of the sciences? Science is an ally of Buddhism, not its enemy. The more that is learned in modern science, the more it backs up Buddhism. I don't in the slightest suggest replacing study time of Buddhism with science instead. But when science can deepen awareness of "impermanence," for example, why not employ it? After all, isn't that what Abhidhamma is more or less. An attempt to make a more definitive science out of the teachings in the Sutta Pitaka? TG #69314 From: connie Date: Wed Mar 7, 2007 5:29 pm Subject: Re: Starting of a World System nichiconn Hi Herman, H: What kamma could be created in the arupa realms, do you reckon? C: I reckon no new kamma there. later, c. #69315 From: TGrand458@... Date: Wed Mar 7, 2007 1:23 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Rupas, Ch 1, no 3. TGrand458@... Hi James I wanted to get back to your post after I posted to the whole group on science and Buddhism. In a message dated 3/6/2007 10:36:20 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, buddhatrue@... writes: Perhaps I have stepped into a thread I have no business being in. ;- )) I haven't really followed this entire thread so I may be speaking out of turn. TG: Not at all. You just happened to step into a discussion with a lunatic. :-) I am really not sure what the Abhidhamma has to say about the water element, and I don't really know who to trust in this regard anyway. TG: I think Abhidhamma has some pretty good things to say about it. I think it may be largely due to Abhidhamma/sutta combination that I was able to come to way I think about the Four Great Elements. (Which is not in "lock step" with Abhidhamma thought.) If the principles of nature are understood in whatever way helps the mind realize -- impermanence, affliction, no-self -- then its a boondoggle for progressing on the Path to end affliction. (I'm expecting to be the first in this group to utilize the word "boondoggle.") LOL Some see rupa as experience and some see rupa as experienced matter. This will greatly affect how they present the water element. TG: I see rupa as a light bulb that is off. I see nama as a light bulb that is on. (Metaphorically speaking.) What I mean by that is -- that I don't see much difference between them other than "functionality." Honestly, I'm not quite sure where you are coming from, but let me explain my position. The 4 Great Elements are not a scientific designation; they are a way to view properties of material objects. So, the water element could just as easily be called the liquid property. The water element doesn't include just water (H2O), but includes anything of a liquid property. Additionally, the purpose of this categorization, as taught by the Buddha, is to lead to nibbana- it isn't to describe the universe. Therefore, it doesn't go very deep in its analysis. TG: Actually, I think he IS trying to describe the universe in a very general way. The Four Great Elements and their ramifications may have been a "common knowledge" in India in the Buddha's day. Maybe no need to go into it too deeply for his audience. Agreed that Nibbana is the point. The Buddha's teaching is always geared for the simplest arrival at Nibbana as possible. It could be, TG, that you are examining this property in a scientific way rather than a Buddhadhamma way? TG: *See my other post today on Science and Buddhism.* An explanation of the 4 Great Elements, as from the suttas: •Earth elements may be either external or internal. Internal earth elements include head hair, body hair, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, sinews, bone, organs, intestinal material, etc. •Water elements may be either external or internal. Internal water elements include bile, phlegm, pus, blood, sweat, fat, tears, snot, urine, etc. •Fire elements may be either external or internal. Internal fire elements include those bodily mechanisms that produce physical warmth, aging, digestion, etc. •Air elements may be either external or internal. Internal air elements includes air associated with the pulmonary system (for example, for breathing), the intestinal system ("winds in the belly and ... bowels"), etc. Metta, James TG: I think the Four Great Elements is capable of explaining, in principle, the way that conditionality works, including mentality. This means it can greatly help in promoting insight into impermanence, affliction, and no-self. But for it to be that efficacious, it needs to be gone into deeply. Its a good subject for contemplation. TG PS, I was sick the last couple of days so sorry if my prior post was terser than my usual. ;-) #69316 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Mar 7, 2007 6:44 pm Subject: Rants and Raves ;-))( Re: New Pic!) buddhatrue Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi James, (Herman & all) > Btw, w/r to your little rave in #69093, James: A rave? I didn't really think it was a rave; I just thought I was thinking out loud. But, I guess when Phil does that it is rambling and when I do that it is raving?? ;-)) when have Nina, Jon or I compared > 'parinibbana to annihilation' James: Of course none of you use those exact words, but that is in essence what you say. If anyone asks you, "What happens to the arahant at paranibbana?" Any answer other than: "That is beyond the scope of the teaching" is either going to be annihilation or eternalism. You, Jon, and Nina tend to describe the experience in terms of annihilation- that it is like a candle being blown out. "Poof" you're gone!! Mahayanists tend to describe the experience in terms of eternalism: becoming cosmic "Buddha-mind" or being reborn in "Pure Land". Either description is inappropriate. The experience is beyond the comprehension of our thinking minds. Therefore, the only description of the experience of paranibbana is "That is beyond the scope of the teaching." And, I only mentioned this (raved about it ;-)) is because Herman appears to have a real fear of being annihilated and believes that that is the goal of Buddhism. I wanted to assure him that annihilation isn't the goal of Buddhism. or suggested that the teachings can all be > 'intellectually figured out' without FAITH (I prefer confidence)? James: Well, I have never heard `The Sons of KS' ;-)) talk about the importance of faith. And Sarah, "confidence" has a slightly different meaning than "faith". From the Buddhist Dictionary by Nyanatiloka: "Faith is called the seed (Sn. v. 77) of all wholesome states because, according to commentarial explanations, it inspires the mind with confidence (okappana, pasâda) and determination (adhimokkha), for 'launching out' (pakkhandhana; s. M. 122) to cross the flood of samsâra." Faith has a fuller meaning than `confidence' because it includes the states of right effort and right action. Faith is a more emotional, rounded feeling. Confidence, on the other hand, is simply an intellectual agreement with something. Confidence doesn't include the desire for action. Sarah, why is it that you prefer the secondary definition of saddha- which is confidence rather than faith? Because `confidence' is dry, unemotional, and passive- the earmarks of the sons of KS. 'A dry > exercise in futility'......I assure you that none of us would be spending > all our time here if it was this!! James: Hmmmm...now who's raving?? ;-)) I described this as the manner in which you describe the Dhamma, not the manner in which you practice it. Sarah, your tai chi, yoga, and surfing activities, even though you are dane to admit it, are forms of meditation. They require increased and prolonged concentration on singular objects. Sarah, you are a closet meditator! LOL! And your pilgrimages to India and Thailand are not just demonstrations of confidence, they are expressions of faith. You are also a closet faith-follower! LOL! No need to respond - just registering a > little protest as I expect you were waiting for one:-). James: Actually, I have so many threads going that I wasn't really waiting for a response. However, I'm sure you know that I wouldn't pass up the opportunity to respond to this post!! ;-)) > > Metta, > > Sarah > p.s Herman, I knew you were a closet Abhidhammist all along....:-) James: Yeah, we have a lot of closet cases around here! lol Metta, James #69317 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Mar 7, 2007 7:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A cremation, just like now! upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - -----Original Message----- From: sarahprocterabbott@... To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 1:44 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] A cremation, just like now! Hi Howard, (replying to #69078) --- upasaka@... wrote: > Hi, Sarah - > > Howard: > > This "just fallen away" usage to me is an "eel wriggling" term. <...> > S: Yes, it is only the present moment, but it can be referred to as the > 'not-so-classifiable' object discussed before. > ---------------------------------- > Howard: > Too vague for my taste. Certainly too vague, I should think, for an > abhidhammika's taste! > ---------------------------------- .... S: Ah, but then 'an abhidhammika' can follow up and get as precise a definition as required:-) I just referred to this same point in a post to Scott. It comes up regularly (and I think we've discussed it a few times before!!)... <...> >S: Perhaps there's something for you to consider here as you play with > little > Sophie! > ------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Nah, couldn't do that - then I wouldn't be paying attention to the > present moment! ;-)) > ----------------------------------------- S: Yes, I knew you were joking, but still Nina has a good point. Anytime, any play, there can be paying wise attention (yoniso manasikara). No need to play less! The hardness is till hardness, the seeing is still seeing, the visible object is still visible object, the distraction is still distraction.....all very real;-) --------------------------------------- Howard: When we're lost in thought (or stupor) so that we don't even know we are distracted, the distraction and all else may be real, but it is not known as anything! --------------------------------------- Hope Sophie's grown into a healthy toddler by now... -------------------------------------- Howard: Thanks! She's doing great! :-) -------------------------------------- Metta, Sarah ======== =================================== With metta, Howard #69318 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Mar 7, 2007 7:25 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Theriigaathaa - Sisters (41) upasaka_howard Hi, Connie & all - -----Original Message----- From: connieparker@interg ate.com To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 7:06 AM Subject: [dsg] Theriigaathaa - Sisters (41) > As it is said in the Apadaana: > One hundred thousand aeons ago, the Conqueror and Leader named > Padumuttara, who reached the far shore of all phenomena, was born. ============================ Amazing, is it not, that 100,000 aeons ago they had Pali names! ;-) With metta, Howard #69319 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Wed Mar 7, 2007 7:38 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kenh - bombs, monks etc egberdina Hi James, On 08/03/07, buddhatrue wrote: > Hi Herman, > > > > > All seven of the fellows who climbed that mountain actually died of > > starvation/thirst. > > Actually, the monk who achieved arahanthood probably just slipped into > paranibbana. Arahants don't die; they enter paranibbana (I am going to > keep posting this fact to this group until everyone gets sick of it! > LOL!) Fair enough too. And I'll think I'll keep re-iterating the all important POV. For example, the Buddha didn't die of natural causes. He got > sick, gave last instructions, entered the jhanas and slipped into > paranibbana. In essence, and arahant "let's go" of the five khandas. > If, for example, a person achieves arahanthood but cannot become a monk > (for whatever reason) he/she will simply let go of the five khandas and > enter paranibbana (as the householder life- owning property and > possessions, raising a family, etc.- is incompatible with the > enlightened state). I think it is necessary to distinguish between first person accounts, and third person accounts. What happens to the Buddha, or anyone else who has ended the cycle of rebirths from their own perspective, is one thing. But for all the onlookers, the third parties, they can only say that they died, and prepare their bodies for whatever ritual they see fit. > > What they understood to be happening may have been > > different in each case, though. > > James: Yes, this is true. But, again, the arahant didn't die. This will depend on POV, I think. Is there a way for a third party to know whether the corpse they are looking "belonged" to an arahant? A dead body is just a dead body, IMO. Kind Regards Herman #69320 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Wed Mar 7, 2007 7:43 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Starting of a World System egberdina Hi Connie, On 07 Mar 2007 17:29:19 -0800, connie wrote: > Hi Herman, > H: What kamma could be created in the arupa realms, do you reckon? > C: I reckon no new kamma there. > later, > c. > Thanks for the above. I'm not trying to lead you up the garden path here, but would you agree then that mentality as such (never translating into bodily or verbal action) has no consequences / is epiphenomenal? Kind Regards Herman #69321 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Wed Mar 7, 2007 8:19 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Rants and Raves ;-))( Re: New Pic!) egberdina Hi James, On 08/03/07, buddhatrue wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > The experience is beyond the comprehension of our thinking minds. > Therefore, the only description of the experience of paranibbana > is "That is beyond the scope of the teaching." This may well be right, and whether it is or not, is beyond my ability to know :-) And, I only > mentioned this (raved about it ;-)) is because Herman appears to have > a real fear of being annihilated and believes that that is the goal > of Buddhism. Just for the record, I am a firm believer in the universality of a law of conservation of energy (first law of thermodynamics). Which basically means no more than that energy cannot be created or destroyed. So annihilation in absolute terms is just not a possibility for me. But certainly processes that depend on energy can arise, and cease. And consciousness is just such a process. And, yes, I do see the goal of Buddhism as being the cessation of consciousness (which you could call the annihilation of consciousness if you meant that to be the ending of a process, not the destruction of a thing). I wanted to assure him that annihilation isn't the goal > of Buddhism. I'd be quite happy to hear from you what you do think the goal of Buddhism is, and whether that is any different from complete unbinding without remnant :-) Kind Regards Herman #69322 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Mar 7, 2007 8:25 pm Subject: Appeasing of Anger! bhikkhu5 Friends: What are the 5 Ways to pacify Anger and Hate? The Blessed Buddha once said: There are, Bhikkhus & Friends, five methods to quell Hate & Anger. Which are these? Towards any person against whom hatred and anger have arisen, 1: One should quickly direct mind to, cultivate and develop: All-embracing and kind friendliness towards that person... 2: One should quickly direct mind to, cultivate and develop: compassion & pity ... mutual joy & ... indifferent equanimity ... or 3: One should avoid & not pay that person any attention at all ... or 4: One should remind oneself of the law of ownership of kamma or 5: One should know that this person too is the owner and inheritor of his actions, that he is created by them, that his actions are his future foundation, & that he will have both his good & bad actions as his future... In these 5 ways one may overcome hate and anger... Source (edited extract): Numerical Discourses of the Buddha. Anguttara Nikaya AN 5:161 More on how to overcome Hate, Anger, Irritation, & derivatives: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/The_Elimination_of_Anger.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/How_to_Cure_Anger_and_Irritation.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/Anger_and_Irritation.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/Slaying_Anger.htm Five Ways to tranquilize anger and hate! Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Ceylon * <....> #69323 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Mar 7, 2007 8:45 pm Subject: Re: Where does Anger start from? buddhatrue Hi Sarah, Nitesh, and All, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi James (& Nitesh), > > .... > S: As you correctly suggest, metta cannot be 'radiated' (or shown) to > oneself. James: I'm glad you agree with my suggesstion. > People read the Vism as indicating metta should be shown to oneself, but I > believe this is a misunderstanding of the text. Just as we'd like to be > happy, so would others. So reflecting, we may have more metta for others. Sarah, the Vism. in this regard is very, very confusing. Here is what the text states: "First of all it [metta] should be developed only towards oneself, doing it repeatedly thus: `May I be happy and free from suffering' or `May I keep myself free from enmity, affliction and anxiety and live happily'. If that is so, does it not conflict with what is said in the texts? For there is no mention of any development of it towards oneself in what is said in the Vibhanga…Patisambhida…and what is said in the Metta-sutta…. James: So, Buddhaghosa writes that one must begin by radiating metta to oneself. However, he acknowledges that such advice can't be found anywhere in the texts! Then he goes on to justify this instruction: "It does not conflict. Why not? Because that refers to absorption. But this [initial development towards oneself] refers to [making oneself] an example. For even if he developed lovingkindness for a hundred or a thousand years in this way `I am happy' and so on, absorption would never arise. But if he develops it in this way `I am happy. Just as I want to be happy and dread pain, as I want to live and not to die, so do other beings, too', making himself the example, then desire for other beings' welfare and happiness arises in him. And this method is indicated by the Blessed One's saying: `I visited all quarters with my mind Nor found I any dearer than myself; `Self is likewise to every other dear; `Who loves himself will never harm another' James: Talk about a leap in logic!! Buddhaghosa is saying that we should radiate metta towards ourselves and he uses a quote by the Buddha, in support, which states that we all already have metta toward ourselves. If we all already hold ourselves dear, why radiate metta toward oneself? Additionally, the Buddha doesn't teach that this additional, initial step is necessary. Buddhaghosa is taking a quote from the texts out of context and misinterpreting its meaning. I think that by doing by radiating metta toward ourselves we are telling ourselves that we don't already hold ourselves dear. If I keep telling myself, "May I be happy, May I be happy", that will mean that I am not already happy and could never really get happiness. Such a practice will increase anxiety rather than decrease it. (This part of the Vism. demonstrates that Buddhaghosa has no qualms whatsoever with extrapolating on the teachings and he will use the most far-out logic to justify his extrapolations.) Metta, James #69324 From: "robmoult" Date: Wed Mar 7, 2007 10:09 pm Subject: Re: Starting of a World System robmoult Hi Herman & Connie, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connie wrote: > > Hi Herman, > H: What kamma could be created in the arupa realms, do you reckon? > C: I reckon no new kamma there. > later, > c. > ===== Sorry to disagree, but.... In AN6.63, the Buddha said, "Intention, I tell you, is kamma. Intending, one does kamma by way of body, speech, & intellect." In the Saleyyaka Sutta (MN41), a group of Brahmans asked what caused fortunate and unfortunate rebirth. The Buddha replied, "Householders, there are three kinds of bodily conduct not in accordance with the Dhamma, unrighteous conduct. There are four kinds of verbal conduct not in accordance with the Dhamma, unrighteous conduct. There are three kinds of mental conduct not in accordance with the Dhamma, unrighteous conduct...." In this Sutta, the Buddha talks about covetousness, ill-will and wrong view (all purely mental phenomena) as mental conduct not in accordance with the Dhamma and then says, "So, householders, it is by reason of conduct not in accordance with the Dhamma, by reason of unrighteous conduct, that some beings here, on the dissolution of the body, after death, reappear in states of deprivation, in an unhappy destination, in perdition, even in hell." The Sutta then continues talking about the wholesome conduct (again three of the wholesome conducts are purely mental) which lead to happy rebirth. In the Abhidhamma, the non-Arahant in the Arupa realms generally have mental states which create new, wholesome kamma. The only realm in which no new kamma is created is the asannasatta realm where there is no mind. Metta, Rob M :-) #69325 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Mar 7, 2007 10:24 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Theriigaathaa - Sisters (34) sarahprocter... Dear All, --- connie wrote: > dear friends, > part two of Sukkaa's story and verse: S: Sukkaa was an arahant and taught the Dhamma to many thousands of living beings. However, the 'meeting the right person' and 'listening' and 'considering' is so much more than having the good fortune to hear the Dhamma as spoken by an arahant. A yakka said: ... > "What has happened to these men in Raajagaha? They remain as though > they > have drunk wine. The do not attend upon Sukkaa when she is preaching the > > state of undying. > "But the wise drink it [the teaching], I think, which is not > repellent, > never causing surfeit, of sweet flavour, as travellers drink a rain > cloud." ... S: Connie added further notes on the last line: ... > 55. But (ca) ... it [the teaching] (ta~n) ... which is not repellent > (appa.tivaaniya.m) means: but it, on the contrary (pana), the Doctrine > produces the state of not turning back [to renewed existence] > (anivattaniiya-bhaavaavaha.m), [and produces] the advancing to leading > out > [from renewed existence] (niyyaanika.m abhikkantataaya). Or, it is not > to > be ignored (anapaniiya.m) because of its nature of delighting the ears > of > people who listen. Never causing surfeit (asencanaka.m) [means:] by > nature > it needs nothing added to it, like a wonderful flavour, and as a result > it > is of sweet flavour. There is also a canonical reading: a medicinal herb > > (osadha.m) - of the nature of a medicine (osadha-bhuuta.m) through the > desire to heal the disease and suffering of continued existence. But the > > wise [sappa~n~naa] drink [it], I think, as travellers (addhaguu) [drink] > a > rain cloud (valaahakam) means: the wise, wise men (pa.n.dita-purisaa), > drink in that Doctrine, I think, like travellers in an arid wilderness > [drink in] water coming from within a rain cloud (valaahak'-antarato). > They listen to it as though they were drinking the Doctrine after > approaching the therii with their minds favourably disposed towards her. ... <...> > 56. You are Sukkaa because of your bright (sukka) mental states, > [being] > rid of desire, concentrated. Bear your last body, having conquered Maara > > and his mount. ... S: this was interesting too, especially the reference to 'concentrated' here, referring to phala samapatti, I believe: ... > Sukkaa means: Therii Sukkaa indicates herself as though she > were someone else. Bright (sukkehi) mental states (dhammehi) means: very > > pure (suparisuddhehi) supramundane mental states (lokuttara-dhammehi). > Rid > of desire, concentrated (samaahitaa) means: rid of desire altogether > through the highest path, concentrated through the concentration of the > fruition state of Arahatship. .... S: So much detail and so many good reminders in all these extracts! Thx Connie:-) Metta, Sarah ======= #69326 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Mar 7, 2007 10:39 pm Subject: Rants and Raves ;-))( Re: New Pic!) buddhatrue Hi Herman, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > This may well be right, and whether it is or not, is beyond my ability > to know :-) James: Right!! > I'd be quite happy to hear from you what you do think the goal of > Buddhism is, and whether that is any different from complete unbinding > without remnant :-) Some identify self with the body, some identify self with consciousness, some identify self with feelings, some identify self with perception, and some identify self with mental volitions. Some identify self with all, some, or none of the above. Herman, it is obvious by your statements and question that you identify self with consciousness. Paranibbana means total unbinding, it doesn't mean total annihilation. However, if you identify yourself with consciousness, how can you possibly understanding total unbinding (as 'yourself' now bound to consciousness)? To you, there is no unbinding, there is only annihilation. Herman, your question should be put aside because it isn't conducive to nibbana. Let me quote a few suttas as an answer: [Sariputta:] "The statement, 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media [vision, hearing, smell, taste, touch, & intellection] is it the case that there is anything else?' complicates non-complication.1 The statement, '... is it the case that there is not anything else ... is it the case that there both is & is not anything else ... is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' complicates non-complication. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far complication goes. However far complication goes, that is how far the six contact media go. With the remainderless fading & stopping of the six contact-media, there comes to be the stopping, the allaying of complication. See MN 18. As Sn 4.14 points out, the root of the classifications and perceptions of complication is the thought, "I am the thinker." This thought forms the motivation for the questions that Ven. Maha Kotthita is presenting here: the sense of "I am the thinker" can either fear or desire annihilation in the course of Unbinding. Both concerns get in the way of the abandoning of clinging, which is essential for the attainment of Unbinding, which is why the questions should not be asked. ****** "Unbinding lies on the other side of release." "What lies on the other side of Unbinding?" "You've gone too far, friend Visakha. You can't keep holding on up to the limit of questions. For the holy life gains a footing in Unbinding, culminates in Unbinding, has Unbinding as its final end. ****** "If one stays obsessed with form, that's what one is measured (limited) by. "One attached is unreleased; one unattached is released. Should consciousness, when standing, stand attached to (a physical) form, supported by form (as its object), established on form, watered with delight, it would exhibit growth, increase, & proliferation. [Similarly with feeling, perception, and fabrications.] "If a monk abandons passion for the property of form... feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness, then owing to the abandonment of passion, the support is cut off, and there is no base for consciousness. Consciousness, thus unestablished, not proliferating, not performing any function, is released. Owing to its release, it is steady. Owing to its steadiness, it is contented. Owing to its contentment, it is not agitated. Not agitated, he (the monk) is totally unbound right within. He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'" ***** "Just as if there were a roofed house or a roofed hall having windows on the north, the south, or the east. When the sun rises, and a ray has entered by way of the window, where does it land?" "On the western wall, lord." "And if there is no western wall, where does it land?" "On the ground, lord." "And if there is no ground, where does it land?" "On the water, lord." "And if there is no water, where does it land?" "It does not land, lord." "In the same way, where there is no passion for the nutriment of physical food... contact... intellectual intention... consciousness, where there is no delight, no craving, then consciousness does not land there or grow. Where consciousness does not land or grow, name-&- form does not alight. Where name-&-form does not alight, there is no growth of fabrications. Where there is no growth of fabrications, there is no production of renewed becoming in the future. Where there is no production of renewed becoming in the future, there is no future birth, aging, & death. That, I tell you, has no sorrow, affliction, or despair." ******* Then the Blessed One went with a large number of monks to the Black Rock on the slope of Isigili. From afar he saw Ven. Vakkali lying dead on a couch. Now at that time a smokiness, a darkness was moving to the east, moved to the west, moved to the north, the south, above, below, moved to the intermediate directions. The Blessed One said, "Monks, do you see that smokiness, that darkness...?" "Yes, Lord." "That is Mara, the Evil One. He is searching for the consciousness of Vakkali the clansman: "Where is the consciousness of Vakkali the clansman established?" But, monks, it is through unestablished consciousness that Vakkali the clansman has become totally unbound." ******* Upasiva: He who has reached the end: Does he not exist, or is he for eternity free from dis-ease? Please, sage, declare this to me as this phenomenon (dhamma) has been known by you. The Buddha: One who has reached the end has no criterion (limit) by which anyone would say that — for him it doesn't exist. When all phenomena (dhamma) are done away with, all means of speaking are done away with as well. Metta, James #69327 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Mar 7, 2007 10:50 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Letters on Vipassana 8, no 11 sarahprocter... Dear Nina & all, The following is a very graphic and interesting sutta about the understanding of paramattha dhammas: --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: >We read in the "Gradual Sayings" (Book of the Threes, Ch > XIV, par. 131, Fighting-man) that a fighting-man has three qualities: > he is a far-shooter, a shooter like lightning and a piercer of huge > objects. A monk who is worthy of respect should have these three > qualities. We read: > > Now, in what way is a monk a far-shooter? > Herein, whatsoever rúpa... feeling... perception (saññå)... activity > (saòkhårakkhandha)... whatsoever consciousness he has, be it past, > present or future, personal or external to self, be it gross or > subtle, mean or exalted, far or near,- everything in short of which > he is conscious,- he sees it as it really is by right insight thus: > This is not mine. This am I not. This is not for me the Self. That is > how a monk is "a far-shooter". .... S: I just checked the translation of the full sutta on the "Metta" site which I'll quote as it's not too long and may be of interest to others: http://mettanet.org/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara-Nikaya/Anguttara1/3-tikani\ pata/014-yodhajivavaggo-e.htm "Anguttara Nikàya 3. Tika-Nipaata 14. Yodhaajavavaggo The warrior 1. Yodhaajavasutta'n- On the warrior. 134.Bhikkhus, endowed with three things the warrior becomes worthy for the king, and royal by the sign. What three? Here bhikkhus, the warrior shoots from a distance, knows the right time to shoot and breaks down a huge mass.Bhikkhus, endowed with these three things the warrior becomes worthy for the king and royal by the sign. In the same manner bhikkhus, endowed with three things the bhikkhu becomes suitable for hospitality, ...re..... the incomparable field of merit for the world. What three? Here bhikkhus, the warrior shoots from a distance, knows the right time to shoot and breaks down a huge mass. Bhikkhus, how does the bhikkhu shoot from a distance? Here, bhikkhus, whatever matter, in the past, future or present, internal or external, rough or fine, unexalted or exalted, at a distance or in close proximity, all that matter -is not mine, am not in it, it is not my self. He sees this, as it really is with right wisdom. Whatever feelings, in the past, future or present, internal or external, rough or fine, unexalted or exalted, at a distance or in close proximity, all those feelings -are not mine, am not in them, they are not my self. He sees this, as it really is with right wisdom. Whatever perceptions, in the past, future or present, internal or external, rough or fine, unexalted or exalted, at a distance or in close proximity, all those perceptions -are not mine, am not in them, they are not my self. He sees this, as it really is with right wisdom. Whatever determinations, in the past, future or present, internal or external, rough or fine, unexalted or exalted, at a distance or in close proximity, all those determinations -are not mine, am not in them, they are not my self. He sees this, as it really is with right wisdom. Whatever consciousness, in the past, future or present, internal or external, rough or fine, unexalted or exalted, at a distance or in close proximity, all that consciousness -is not mine, am not in it, it is not my self. He sees this, as it really is with right wisdom. Bhikkhus, thus the bhikkhu shoots from a distance. How does the bhikkhu shoot at the correct moment? Here, bhikkhus, the bhikkhu knows as it really is, this is unpleasant...re..... This is the method to the cessation of unpleasantness, as it really is. Bhikkhus, thus the bhikkhu shoots at the correct moment. Bhikkhus, how does the bhikkhu break through a large mass? Here bhikkhus, the bhikkhu breaks through a large mass of ignorance. Thus the bhikkhu breaks through a large mass. Bhikkhus, the bhikkhu endowed with these three things becomes suitable for hospitality, ...re..... the incomparable field of merit for the world." .... Nina: > The five khandhas, all conditioned rúpas and nåmas should be realized > as they are. We then read that the monk is a shooter like lightning > when he understands the four noble Truths: dukkha, its origination, > its ceasing and the Way leading to its ceasing. He is a piercer of > huge objects when he pierces through the huge mass of ignorance. > If one wants to learn the art of shooting with bow and arrow one has > to have endless patience and perseverance to learn this skill. Evenso > one needs great patience and perseverance to develop satipaììhåna. It > has to be learnt without an idea of self who is training. The right > conditions have to be there in order to be able to develop right > understanding. The person who shoots from far and can hit the aim > very precisely is like the person who has developed paññå which has > become so keen that it can realize the true nature of the reality > which appears. Paññå is as swift as lightning and it can pierce > through the huge mass of ignorance. Since ignorance is a mass > accumulated for aeons it cannot be eradicated within a short time. .... S: These are helpful elaborations, thank you. I remember K.Sujin referring to this sutta once, but didn't recall having read it(even though I'd read all of AN!). With appreciation, Sarah ========== #69328 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Mar 7, 2007 11:07 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'sanghika daana' was: daana corner sarahprocter... Dear Ven Dhammanando, Han, Antony & all, This was very helpful, (as was the link which Han and Antony provided to the Ledi Sayadaw article): --- Dhammanando Bhikkhu wrote: >.... To quote the commentary to the > Dakkhinaavibhanga Sutta: > > "One thinking 'I shall give a gift dedicated to the sangha', having > prepared an item to be given, having gone to the vihaara, says: > 'venerable sir, give this to the sangha, to one elder or another.' > Then, if the item were to be given by the sangha to a saama.nera and > the donor became otherwise [i.e. got upset] thinking, "a saama.nera got > my gift!' then that would not be a gift dedicated to the sangha. Or if > a great elder got the gift and the donor thought, 'a great elder got my > gift!' and became elated on that account, then that too would not be a > gift dedicated to the sangha. > > "If the donor, when saying 'I give to the sangha', is agreeable enough > that he would remain respectful no matter whether the gift were > [subsequently] given by the sangha to a saama.nera, or one fully > ordained, a junior or an elder, a fool or a sage, then that would be a > gift dedicated to the sangha." > (MA. v. 75) .... S: I think there are many good reminders here about daana in general. So often we remain attached to gifts given and the consequences, rather than just appreciating the value of making the offerings or gifts when we have opportunities. Metta, Sarah ======== #69329 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Mar 7, 2007 11:24 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A cremation, just like now! sarahprocter... Hi Herman, --- Herman Hofman wrote: > > >H:There is never just hearing, or just > > > seeing, no hearing in general, or seeing in general, it is always > > > seeing or hearing something specific. > > .... > > S: > > 1. Yes! It is always seeing of a particular visible object or hearing > of a > > particular sound. > > > > 2. In the same way, it is never just being aware or understanding in > > general, but being aware or understanding a specific characteristic. > > > > 3. So all cittas experience an object. When the cittas accompanied by > > awareness and understanding (and other sobhana cetasikas) arise, they > > experience a dhamma. Such a dhamma may be seeing, hearing or any other > > presently appearing dhamma. > > ***** > >H: If you are saying that at point 3 there is consciousness of being > conscious, as well as consciousness of the object, then I agree. ... S: I'm saying: 1. Consciousness (citta) is always conscious of something - whether that be a nama, a rupa or a concept. 2. So consciousness is often conscious of consciousness/being conscious (a kind of nama, such as seeing or hearing). 3. When it is conscious of consciousness, such as seeing consciousness, it is not conscious of visible object or any other object at the same time. 4. Similarly, when consciousness (citta) is conscious (i.e experiences)visible object or any other rupa, it doesn't experience a nama (or a concept) at that instant. Are we still in agreement here? [apology for delay just deleted as I remembered you don't care for them;-)] Metta, Sarah ======= #69330 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Mar 7, 2007 11:26 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Rupas, Ch 1, no 3. buddhatrue Hi TG, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@... wrote: > TG: I think the Four Great Elements is capable of explaining, in principle, > the way that conditionality works, including mentality. This means it can > greatly help in promoting insight into impermanence, affliction, and no-self. > But for it to be that efficacious, it needs to be gone into deeply. James: I'm not sure what you mean by "deeply"; I don't think it needs to be gone into any more deeply than the Buddha taught. Just as Nina wrote recently, one should see the properties in one's body and the properties outside one's body in order to decrease attachment to the body. But it seems if we are getting a bit off-track here. I was concerned because you wrote that the water element isn't a separate element. You still haven't addressed that. Earth isn't the same as liquid, fire, or air; liquid isn't the same as earth, fire or air; etc. They each have separate characteristics and they are separate. Perhaps you address this issue in your other post about Science and Buddhism? I will give that post some more attention and post back later. I have posted too much today and am getting burned out. Its a > good subject for contemplation. > > TG > PS, I was sick the last couple of days so sorry if my prior post was terser Sorry you were sick. I didn't notice any terseness, but thanks for your concern. Metta, James #69331 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Mar 8, 2007 12:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Mystery of Consciousness sarahprocter... Hi Herman, --- Herman Hofman wrote: > dHi Sarah, .... S: I understand the dHi dilemma:-) I mix and match....! .... > > S: The rupas are just as they are regardless. Sound is sound, hardness > is > > hardness. The only difference is whether or not they are experienced > and > > how they are experienced. > > > >H: There is no such thing as unheard sound, or unfelt hardness. Sound is > sound to consciousness (pov thing again), and hardness is hardness to > consciousness. Unexperienced rupas ARE, that's for sure and for > certain, but they lack any characteristics, because all > characteristics are relative to consciousness. .... S: If that's what you like to believe, OK. I'd say that if there's no consciousness, then the characteristics aren't experienced, that's all. (I think Howard responded to the pov thing). .... > > S: Do you have CMA, I forget? Ch1, Guide to #22-24 > > Also, ch3, #21: "The immaterial-sphere resultants ae independent of > the > > heart-base." > > (There may be other better references, this is just a quick look.) > > ... > > I've always had reservations about the 31 or whatever numbers of > realms and spheres there are said to be. ... S: OK, but you did ask for directions to the arupa brahma realm:-) .... > > From the Hemavata Sutta > > 168. The demon Hemavata asked: > How has the world arisen and how are acquaintances made, > On what is the world supported, and how does it get destroyed." > > 169. The Blessed One said; > Hemavata, the world arises in the six, and acquaintances are on the six > Supported on these same six, the world gets destroyed in the six". > > The six, of course, being the six senses. Mediated by a brain. .... S: Yes, only 6 worlds of experience (at most)for sure, no matter what realm. ... > > > You make some assumptions. Why have cittas "of course" continued? > > .... > > S: I just checked the text. It refers in the next line to comparing > 'one > > who is dead' (like this) to one 'who has entered upon cessation of > > perception and feeling.' Of course, in the case of an arahant, no more > > cittas, but I understood it here to be referring to common death. I > see > > BB's note suggests the same: 'That is, dead'. > > ... > > How can one tell if a corpse "belonged" to an arahant? How can one > tell, for that matter, if a living being is an arahant? .... S: Only if one had been wise enough to know and likewise for now. In any case, I was just following the line of the sutta (as I read it in context). Rupas of the dead body are just rupas of the dead body regardless, so not important! .... > > Thank you for discussing. .... S: Likewise..... Metta, Sarah ====== #69332 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Mar 8, 2007 1:12 am Subject: Letters on Vipassana 9, no 7. nilovg Dear friends, We may mistakenly think that there is awareness of realities when we are only thinking about realities such as softness or the experience of softness. In some meditation centers people have to sit for one hour, then walk for one hour, but there is no right understanding of the object of awareness. They may hear the teacher say that softness is rúpa and that the experience of softness is not self. They learn by heart that there are six doorways and they recite for themselves the objects which can appear through these doorways. This can be a level of sati since sati accompanies each kind of kusala citta, but there is no development of direct understanding of the reality appearing at the present moment. Khun Sujin stressed again that whenever sati arises it is time to develop understanding. We have heard this before, but don't we forget? When paññå is being developed there will be less doubt about awareness. We shall be less inclined to think, "Was there awareness or was it only thinking?" Khun Sujin said: "There is touching many times, but when awareness arises there is the beginning of understanding of softness as a reality, or of touching as just a moment of experiencing. That moment is not thinking about the idea of softness or thinking about touching, because it is the moment of experiencing very naturally, it is the moment of developing understanding. There is awareness and understanding without any expectation, because it is time to develop understanding when awareness is aware, not when you want to be aware. One knows how much understanding there is when awareness arises." When Sarah asked what the characteristic of visible object is, Khun Sujin gave a very meaningful answer which is well worth considering: "A reality. Can anybody do something about it at this moment? It appears now, it has its own characteristic, nobody can change it." Visible object is just a reality, it is not a person or a tree, as we used to think. When we hear that it is a reality and that we cannot do anything about it, it reminds us of the nature of anattå of visible object. It appears already and understanding of it can be naturally developed. It seems that we see immediately a chair or a flower, but if there were no thinking could there be any idea about visible object? Seeing and thinking arise closely one after the other and gradually their different characteristics can be known. ****** Nina. #69333 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Mar 8, 2007 1:13 am Subject: rupas, Ch 2, no 2. nilovg Dear friends, When there are conditions for seeing, visible object is experienced. When we close our eyes, there may be remembrance of the shape and form of a thing, but that is not the experience of visible object. The thinking of a “thing”, no matter whether our eyes are closed or open, is different from the actual experience of what is visible. We may find it difficult to know what visible object is, since we are usually absorbed in paying attention to the shape and form of things. When we perceive the shape and form of something, for example of a chair, we think of a concept. A chair cannot impinge on the eyesense. Seeing does not see a chair, it only sees what is visible. Seeing and thinking occur at different moments. There is not thinking all the time, there are also moments of just seeing, moments that we do not pay attention to shape and form. There can be only one citta at a time experiencing one object, but different experiences arise closely one after the other. When one cannot distinguish them yet from each other, one believes that they occur all at the same time. If we remember that visible object is the rúpa which can be experienced through the eyesense, right understanding of this reality can be developed. As we have seen, odour is another rúpa among the eight inseparable rúpas. Wherever there is materiality, no matter whether of the body or outside the body, there has to be odour. The “Dhammasangaùi” (§ 625) mentions different odours, pleasant and unpleasant, but they all are just odour which can be experienced through the nose. The “Atthasåliní” (II, Book II, Ch III, 320) defines odour as follows 3 : ... all odours have the characteristic of striking the sense of smell, the property of being the object of olfactory cognition, the manifestation of being the field of the same.... It has as proximate cause the four Great Elements. Odour cannot arise alone, it needs the four Great Elements which arise together with it and it is also accompanied by the other rúpas included in the eight inseparable rúpas. When odour appears we tend to be carried away by like or dislike. We are attached to fragrant odours and we loathe nasty smells. However, odour is only a reality which is experienced through the nose and it does not last. ****** Nina. #69334 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Mar 8, 2007 1:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 138 and Tiika nilovg Hi Larry, Consulting Guide to Conditional Relations, U Narada (p. 140): he states that there are three kinds of objects of rebirth- consciousness: kamma, sign of kamma, sign of destiny. The sign of destiny can be experienced only through the mind-door. The first and second through all six doors. He writes: Thus, there is a difference. For sign of kamma a pagoda that was built can be taken as object. The colour which is the object for instance during the last javanacittas is then conditioned by the kamma performed before. As we read: < The ‘Dispeller of Delusion’ (p. 210) states, “Aacariya Aananda has said ‘ it should be understood that a present sign of kamma, which comes into the range of the five sense-doors, arises in continuity with the object of the kamma performed immediately [prior], and is similar to that object. ’ ” > As to kamma being the object in the last javanacittas in a sense-door process, in a preceding mind-door process one thinks of kamma that was performed, and then this conditions a pleasant or unpleasant sense object experienced during the last javanacittas in a sense-door process. We have to remember that kamma conditions the last javanacittas and the object experienced by these, also when they arise in a sense-door process. ----------- In your other post you wrote: Functional consciousnesses are part of the manifestation of kamma result but not directly a result of kamma like vipaka citta. ---------- N: I would not write it in this way. This is correct: not a direct result of kamma. I would say: they are part of the processes of cittas experiencing objects and thus inherent in the cycle of birth and death. Nina. Op 8-mrt-2007, om 1:48 heeft Larry het volgende geschreven: > N: "Kamma or the sign of kamma can appear through any of the five > doors. It can appear as colour, sound etc." > > L: Is there a difference between a kamma and a sign of kamma? #69335 From: han tun Date: Thu Mar 8, 2007 1:55 am Subject: Daana Corner (13) hantun1 Dear Dhamma Friends, This is taken from “The Practice of Giving” by Susan Elbaum Jootla. Susan wrote the essay in the following sub-headings: * The Factor of Volition * The Recipient of Gifts * The Objects to be Given * The Perfection of Giving * The Ultimate Goal of Giving The following is *The Perfection of Giving* (first half) Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ------------------------------ The Perfection of Giving There is a mode of giving which completely disregards the qualities of the recipient and even the mundane fruits of the merit acquired by giving. Such generosity springs from the motive of renunciation, the thought of eliminating one's attachment to one's possessions, and thus aims at giving away the dearest and most difficult gifts. Bodhisattas give in this manner whenever the opportunity presents itself, strictly in order to fulfill the danaparami, the "perfection of giving," which is the first of the ten perfections they must cultivate to the highest degree in order to attain Buddhahood. A Bodhisatta's work to complete the perfection of giving demands much more of him than other beings could emulate. Many Jataka tales relate how the Bodhisatta who was to become the Buddha Gotama gave things away with absolutely no thought of himself or of the mundane benefits that might follow. A Bodhisatta's only concern in practicing generosity is to fulfill the requirements for Buddhahood. The Basket of Conduct [4] contains ten stories of the Bodhisatta's former lives. In one of these lifetimes he was a brahman named Sankha who saw a Paccekabuddha, or non-teaching enlightened one, walking barefoot on a desert path. Sankha thought to himself, "Desiring merit, seeing one eminently worthy of a gift of faith, if I do not give him a gift, I will dwindle in merit." So the brahman, who had a very delicate constitution, presented his sandals to the Paccekabuddha even though his own need for them was greater (Division I, Story 2). Another time the Bodhisatta was a great emperor named Maha-Sudassana. He had criers proclaim several times every day, in thousands of places throughout his empire, that anyone who wanted anything would be given it if he just came there and asked. "If there came a mendicant beggar, whether by day or by night, receiving whatever goods he wanted, he went away with hands full." Maha-Sudassana gave with completely openhanded generosity, "without attachment, expecting nothing in return, for the attainment of Self-Awakening" (I,4). A Bodhisatta must give more difficult gifts than material goods to fulfill the highest form of the perfection of generosity. He must freely give the parts of his body, his children, his wife, and even his own life. As King Sivi, our Bodhisatta plucked out both his eyes with his bare hands and gave them to Sakka, the king of the gods. Sakka had come to Sivi in the guise of a blind old man, just to provide him with the opportunity to make this remarkable gift. Sivi did this with no hesitation prior to the act, nor with any reluctance during the act, nor with any hint of regret afterwards. He said that this gift was made "for the sake of Awakening itself. The two eyes were not disagreeable to me. Omniscience was dear to me, therefore I gave my eyes" (I,8). Note [4] Cariyapitaka, translated by I.B. Horner, included in Minor Anthologies of the Pali Canon, Part III (London: Pali Text Society, 1975). The End of the first half of *The Perfection of Giving* The second half of *The Perfection of Giving* will be in next post. Han #69336 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Mar 8, 2007 2:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Daana Corner (13) nilovg Dear Han, here Susan comes to the essence of the perfections. This is only the first part, but tomorrow I go away for about five days. The perfections can be reckoned as thirty if we take into account the degrees of: low, medium and topmost. Bodhisattas accomplish the highest degree of them. I hope Susan will also point out that we, all of us, really need to develop the perfections, although not to the highest degree. Nina. Op 8-mrt-2007, om 10:56 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > There is a mode of giving which completely disregards > the qualities of the recipient and even the mundane > fruits of the merit acquired by giving. Such > generosity springs from the motive of renunciation, > the thought of eliminating one's attachment to one's > possessions, and thus aims at giving away the dearest > and most difficult gifts. #69337 From: "matheesha" Date: Thu Mar 8, 2007 3:15 am Subject: Re: Letters on Vipassana 9, no 7. matheesha333 Dear Nina, Could you kindly explain the nature of phassa please? I recently read that it is a Nama dhamma. Yet it comprises of rupa presenting to a sense door, the sense door and vinnana at that sense door. So is this like a mental represenation of the 'external' world? I would appreciate your understanding of the matter. How does that differ from 'aarammana', or 'nimitta' or is it the same? regards Matheesha #69338 From: "matheesha" Date: Thu Mar 8, 2007 4:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] daana corner matheesha333 Dear Han, You do indeed have a wonderful little corner here. I have recently become more interested in the practice of dana and it is with great pleasure that I noticed this bit of DSG. I will contribute a bit by saying that the buddha said that if someone has miserliness in her heart, she will be unable to become a sotapanna (stream entrant). Dana has been mentioned in some formulations as a quality of a stream entrant (sotapatti-anga). I have poeple tell me that they oberve the further they progress in life, that people who have daana as a habit tend to recieve more in their lives as well. Not everyone would believe this , but is is an element of munane right view that we all need to cultivate. with metta Matheesha #69339 From: han tun Date: Thu Mar 8, 2007 4:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Daana Corner (13) hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much for your kind comments. When you said, “The perfections can be reckoned as thirty if we take into account the degrees of: low, medium and topmost,” I take it that you are referring to: (1) ten ordinary Perfections (Paramitas) (2) ten superior Perfections (Upa-paramitas) (3) ten supreme Perfections (Paramattha-paramitas). Yes, Nina, all of us need to develop the perfections, although not to the highest degree. When you come back after about five days, the second half of *The Perfection of Giving* would have already been posted, and I would very much appreciate to have your further comments. Respectfully, Han #69340 From: han tun Date: Thu Mar 8, 2007 4:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] daana corner hantun1 Dear Matheesha, I thank you very much for appreciating this “wonderful little corner.” The credit goes to Venerable Bhikkhu Bodhi who compiled and edited these essays, and the wonderful scholars who wrote them, and Sarah who asked me to post them in installments. I also appreciate very much your kind comments on the need to practice daana and the benefits of practicing it. I hope you will continue to contribute, as and when appropriate, as we go along studying these wonderful essays. Respectfully, Han #69341 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Mar 8, 2007 5:05 am Subject: [dsg] Q. Re: Rupas. Introduction, 1.vipassana ~naa.na. scottduncan2 Dear Nina, Thank you for your reply, and the Tiika section.we need more examples. N: "We need more examples, and in the following sections you can read more about navattaaramma.na." I'll wait. Until then, I heard (from 2006-02-08P-b): Kh. Sujin: "...Yeah, so what is nimitta?" A: "Its like the sign that is left." Kh. Sujin: "Um hm. Why do you call it a sign?" A: "Because it's fallen away" Kh. Sujin: "All the time. What is left is just a sign of something like sign of visible object, but actually each one has fallen away...already." Q: "When satipa.t.thaana is very developed..?" Kh. Sujin: "Its the beginning of seeing the difference between concept and reality..." Q: "At naama-ruupa-pariccheda~naa.na?" Kh. Sujin: "Not yet...just know the moment with sati and without sati...Whenever it is aware of a characteristic. So in a day only different characteristics appearing. Like nimitta too, when there is no awareness. And one can see that the object of satipa.t.thaana is a characteristic of a reality, but still, as long as it is not a moment of realising the arising and falling away, it is still nimitta. And even at that moment ater experiencing the arising a falling away the just one characteristic is nimitta of that reality. So, what doesn't have nimitta...Nibbaana only. [Nimitta is] a characteristic of a reality which arises and falls away. The nimitta of ruupa, the nimitta of vedanaa, the nimitta of sa~n~naa, the nimitta of sankhara, the nimitta of vi~n~naana." Q: "Whats the difference between say ruupa and the nimitta of ruupa?" Kh. Sujin: "Without ruupa can there be nimitta?" A: "No." Q: "Is it a paramattha dhamma or not a paramattha dhamma?" Kh. Sujin: "Reality is paramattha. And nimitta is the shadow of paramattha dhamma." Q: "Pa~n~natti?" Nina: "Its not pa~n~natti I think. We have to be careful..." Kh. Sujin: "Not concept. Because when we talk about shadow its not any word." Q: "But in the Abhidhammattha Sangaha they talk about the shadow of realities. I always thought that was referring to concepts." Kh. Sujin: "But without [the reality] that can there be any shadows?...So we have to know what concept we mean...as long as a characteristic is appearing...the characteristic is not [a concept] but what you take for something...You see that the meaning of concept or what we should understand better. Now there is concept of reality or nimitta or reality or nimitta or visible object...we talk about nimitta of visible object as long as it does not appear as only visible object...when pa~n~na grows it knows the difference between the conditioned reality which has nimitta of each one or its own and Nibbaana which doesn't have any nimitta at all..." Sincerely, Scott. #69342 From: connie Date: Thu Mar 8, 2007 5:12 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (41) nichiconn dear friends, part 3 of 3 - Therii Sundarii-Nandaa: "Sutvaaha.m maatu vacana.m, pabbaji.m anagaariya.m; dehena natu cittena, ruupayobbanalaa.litaa. "Mahataa ca payattena, jhaanajjhena para.m mama; kaatu~nca vadate maataa, na caaha.m tattha ussukaa. "Tato mahaakaaru.niko, disvaa ma.m kaamalaalasa.m; nibbandanattha.m ruupasmi.m, mama cakkhupathe jino. "Sakena aanubhaavena, itthi.m maapesi sobhini.m; dassaniiya.m surucira.m, mamatopi suruupini.m. "Tamaha.m vimhitaa disvaa, ativimhitadehini.m; cintayi.m saphala.m meti, nettalaabha~nca maanusa.m. Hearing my mother's words, I went forth to the homeless state, delighting in my youth and beauty, but not in my mind. Afterwards, my mother told me to make a great effort in meditation, but I was not eager to do that. Then the One of Great Sympathy saw that I was intent on sensual pleasures. In order to make me disgusted with my own beauty, the Conqueror made appear through his own power in front of my eyes a woman who was replendent, fair to behold, very beautiful, even more beautiful than I was. Seeing that very astonishing woman, I was amazed, I thought, "This is a fruitful thing for me. It is possible to see, even though one is a human being." "Tamaha.m ehi subhage, yenattho ta.m vadehi me; kula.m te naamagotta~nca, vada me yadi te piya.m. "Na va~ncakaalo subhage, uccha"nge ma.m nivaasaya; siidantiiva mama"ngaani, pasuppayamuhuttaka.m. "Tato siisa.m mama"nge saa, katvaa sayi sulocanaa; tassaa nalaa.te patitaa, luddhaa paramadaaru.naa. "Saha tassaa nipaatena, pi.lakaa upapajjatha; pagghari.msu pabhinnaa ca, ku.napaa pubbalohitaa. "Pabhinna.m vadana~ncaapi, ku.napa.m puutigandhana.m; uddhumaata.m vinila~nca, pubba~ncaapi sariiraka.m. Then I [said] to her, "Come, fortunate one. Tell me what you want. Tell me your family, name, and clan, if you please. "This is no time to deceive, fortunate one. Let me rest on your lap. Sitting down, let my limbs rest for a moment." Then I placed my head on her lap. That one with beautiful eyes slept. Then a very terrible spider fell on her forehead. With its falling down on her, a boil arose, and it burst open, oozing impurities, pus, and blood. And her mouth was flowing with impuritie[s], smelling rotten, swollen, and discoloured; and there was bodily pus. "Saa paveditasabba"ngii, nissasantii muhu.m muhu.m; vedayantii saka.m dukkha.m, karu.na.m paridevayi. "Dukkhena dukkhitaa homi, phusayanti ca vedanaa; mahaadukkhe nimuggamhi, sara.na.m hohi me sakhii. "Kuhi.m vadanasota.m te, kuhi.m te tu"nganaasikaa; tambabimbavaro.t.thante, vadana.m te kuhi.m gata.m. "Kuhi.m sasiinibha.m va.n.na.m, kambugiivaa kuhi.m gataa; do.laa lolaava te ka.n.naa, veva.n.na.m samupaagataa. "Maku.lakhaarakaakaaraa, kalikaava payodharaa; pabhinnaa puutiku.napaa, du.t.thagandhittamaagataa. "Vedimajjhaava susso.nii, suunaava niitakibbisaa; jaataa amajjhabharitaa, aho ruupamasassata.m. All her limbs trembled, she sighed repeatedly, she experienced her own misery and lamented piteously. [She said,] "I am afflicted by misery. Sensations afflict me. I am submerged in great pain. Be my refuge, friend." "Where is the opening of your mouth? Where is your long nose? Where has your mouth gone with its excellent, dark red lips?" [I asked.] "Where is your complexion that is like the moon? Where has your neck like a conch shell gone? Your ears like waving swings have lost their colour. "Your breasts are like dried up buds and are flowing with these rotten impurities that are evil smelling. "You, with a shapely waist and having beautiful hips, have become full of impurities like arisen defects leading to a slaughterhouse. O beauty is not eternal! "Sabba.m sariirasa~njaata.m, puutigandha.m bhayaanaka.m; susaanamiva biibhaccha.m, ramante yattha baalisaa. "Tadaa mahaakaaru.niko, bhaataa me lokanaayako; disvaa sa.mviggacitta.m ma.m, imaa gaathaa abhaasatha. "Aatura.m ku.napa.m puuti.m, passa nande samussaya.m; asubhaaya citta.m bhaavehi, ekagga.m susamaahita.m. "Yathaa ida.m tathaa eta.m, yathaa eta.m tathaa ida.m; duggandha.m puutika.m vaati, baalaana.m abhinandita.m. "Evameta.m avekkhantii, rattindivamatanditaa; tato sakaaya pa~n~naaya, abhinibbijjha dakkhisa.m. "Tatoha.m atisa.mviggaa, sutvaa gaathaa subhaasitaa; tatra.t.thitaavaha.m santii, arahattamapaapu.ni.m. "All this rotten smell produced by the body is frightful. It is as loathsome as a cemetery that [only] the ignorant delight in." Then my brother, the One of Great Sympathy, the Leader of the World, saw me with an agitated mind, and he spoke thse verses: "Nandaa, see the body, diseased, impure, rotten. Develop the mind, intent and well concentrated, for contemplation of the unpleasant. "As this is, so is that. As that is, so is this. It gives out a rotten evil smell. It is the delight of fools. "Looking at it in this way, not relaxing day or night, then analysing it by your own wisdom, you will see." Then I was very agitated on hearing those well-spoken verses. Standing there, I was thrilled, and I attained Arahatship. "Yattha yattha nisinnaaha.m, sadaa jhaanaparaaya.naa; jino tasmi.m gu.ne tu.t.tho, etadagge .thapesi ma.m. "Kilesaa jhaapitaa mayha.m {, bhavaa sabbe samuuhataa; naagiiva bandhana.m chetvaa, viharaami anaasavaa. "Svaagata.m vata me aasi, buddhase.t.thassa santike; tisso vijjaa anuppattaa, kata.m buddhassa saasana.m. "Pa.tisambhidaa catasso, vimokkhaapi ca a.t.thime; cha.labhi~n~naa sacchikataa,} kata.m buddhassa saasanan"ti. Wherever I sit, I am always given over to meditation. The Conqueror was pleased with that quality of mine and placed me in the foremost position of them [meditators]. My defilements are burnt out, {all [future] births are completely destroyed. Having severed my bonds like an elephant, I live without taints. Welcome indeed was the presence of the Best of Buddhas to me. I have attained the three true knowledges. I have done the Buddha's teaching. The four discriminations and also the eight liberations are mine. I have realized the six direct knowledges.} I have done the Buddha's teaching. arahatta.m pana patvaa attano pa.tipatti.m paccavekkhitvaa udaanavasena "aatura.m asucin"ti-aadinaa satthaaraa desitaahi tiihi gaathaahi saddhi.m- 85. "tassaa me appamattaaya, vicinantiyaa yoniso; yathaabhuuta.m aya.m kaayo, di.t.tho santarabaahiro. 86. "Atha nibbindaha.m kaaye, ajjhatta~nca virajjaha.m; appamattaa visa.myuttaa, upasantaamhi nibbutaa"ti.- Imaa dve gaathaa abhaasi. Then she attained Arahatship, and looking over her attainment, she spoke these two verses as a solemn utterance: 85. Vigilant, reflecting in a reasoned manner, I saw this body as it really was, inside and out. 86. Then I became disgusted with the body, and I was disinterested internally. Vigilant, unfettered, I have become stilled, quenched. RD: I, even I, have seen, inside and out, This body as in truth it really is, Who sought to know the 'what' and 'why' of it, With zeal unfaltering and ardour fired. (85) Now for the body care I never more, And all my consciousness is passion-free. Keen with unfettered zeal, detached, Calm and serene I taste Nibbana's peace. (86) Tattha evameta.m avekkhantii…pe… dakkhisanti eta.m aaturaadisabhaava.m kaaya.m eva.m "yathaa ida.m tathaa etan"ti-aadinaa vuttappakaarena rattindiva.m sabbakaala.m atanditaa hutvaa parato ghosahetuka.m sutamaya~naa.na.m mu~ncitvaa, tato ta.mnimitta.m attani sambhuutattaa sakaayabhaavanaamayaaya pa~n~naaya yaathaavato ghanavinibbhogakara.nena abhinibbijjha, katha.m nu kho dakkhisa.m passissanti aabhogapurecaarikena pubbabhaaga~naa.nacakkhunaa avekkhantii vicinantiiti attho. 84. There, Looking at in this way ...etc... you will see means: this body that is disceased, etc, by nature; thus: "as this is, so is that" [v.83], etc. As he said, day or night, always, not relaxing, getting rid of the knowledge consisting of what you have heard, based on what others have said. Then analysing that sign produced by myself by your own wisdom based on mental development, by duly producing deep discrimination. How was it that I saw it (dakkhisa.m = passissa.m)? By looking at it through being led by reflection, through the eye of knowledge of the past, reflecting. That is the meaning. Tenaaha "tassaa me appamattaayaa"ti-aadi. Tassattho- tassaa me sati-avippavaasena appamattaaya yoniso upaayena aniccaadivasena vipassanaapa~n~naaya vicinantiyaa viima.msantiyaa, aya.m khandhapa~ncakasa"nkhaato kaayo sasantaanaparasantaanavibhaagato santarabaahiro yathaabhuuta.m di.t.tho. 85. The meaning of that is: vigilant through non-absence of mindfulness, in a reasoned manner, skilfully, by wisdom and insight because of impermanence, etc, reflecting, considering, I saw this body, which is synonymous with the five aggregates, inside and outside, because of the division into one's own continuity and the continuity of others, as it really was. Atha tathaa dassanato pacchaa nibbindaha.m kaaye vipassanaapa~n~naasahitaaya maggapa~n~naaya attabhaave nibbindi.m, visesatova ajjhattasantaane virajji viraaga.m aapajji.m, aha.m yathaabhuutaaya appamaadapa.tipattiyaa matthakappattiyaa appamattaa sabbaso sa.myojanaana.m samucchinnattaa visa.myuttaa upasantaa ca nibbutaa ca amhiiti. Sundariinandaatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa ni.t.thitaa. 86. Then, seeing thus afterwards, I became disgusted with (nibbind') the body (kaaye), I became disgusted with (nibbindi.m) the body (atta-bhaave) through the knowledge of the path accompanied by the knowledge of insight. So I was disinterested in, I attained dispassion with internal continuity especially. I am vigilant (appamattaa), having arrived at the summit of practice of vigilance (appamaada-pa.tipattiyaa) as it really is, unfettered because of the fetters have been cut out altogether, and have become stilled and quenched. Here ends the commentary on the verses of Therii Sundarii-Nandaa. ==== peace, connie #69343 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Mar 8, 2007 5:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Daana Corner (13) sarahprocter... Dear Nina, --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Han, > here Susan comes to the essence of the perfections. This is only the > first part, but tomorrow I go away for about five days. .... S: Have a good trip and good rest (if you can!!). It always comes back to accumulations and dhamma is certainly your medicine! On the point about panna in the sense-door process, of course this is possible as we know in our Abhid. studies. But it was your earlier comment that 'Now one can experience that this is true' that caught my attention and prompted my comment about 'in the beginning......' I was just repeating what I recalled K.Sujin had said once to us (quietly, as an aside or correction), i.e that in the beginning, panna develops in the mind-door process. Her comment made good sense to me as it 'fitted in' with what we understand about nimitta, but it's not something we'll find in the texts, I'm sure. In Scott's quote/paraphrase with the reference to 'Now.....panna at the sense-door process', she's referring to vipassana nana processes. Metta, Sarah ======== #69344 From: connie Date: Thu Mar 8, 2007 6:00 am Subject: Re: Starting of a World System nichiconn Hi Herman, RobM, Thanks for disagreeing, RobM. I think you're right: << The only realm in which no new kamma is created is the asannasatta realm where there is no mind. >> peace, connie #69345 From: connie Date: Thu Mar 8, 2007 6:24 am Subject: Re: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (34) nichiconn Subject: Re: [dsg] Theriigaathaa - Sisters (34) sarahprocter... Hi Sarah, I like that you see and point out things that go over my head, thanks. connie <...> > 56. You are Sukkaa because of your bright (sukka) mental states, > [being] > rid of desire, concentrated. Bear your last body, having conquered Maara > > and his mount. ... S: this was interesting too, especially the reference to 'concentrated' here, referring to phala samapatti, I believe: ... > Sukkaa means: Therii Sukkaa indicates herself as though she > were someone else. Bright (sukkehi) mental states (dhammehi) means: very > > pure (suparisuddhehi) supramundane mental states (lokuttara-dhammehi). > Rid > of desire, concentrated (samaahitaa) means: rid of desire altogether > through the highest path, concentrated through the concentration of the > fruition state of Arahatship. .... #69346 From: connie Date: Thu Mar 8, 2007 6:29 am Subject: Re: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (41) nichiconn Hi Howard, Howard: Amazing, is it not, that 100,000 aeons ago they had Pali names! ;-) Connie: My first thought was that you were being sarcastic! On second thought, I figure you agree that the Buddhas' truths are always the same and Pali is the root tongue. peace, c. #69347 From: TGrand458@... Date: Thu Mar 8, 2007 3:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Rupas, Ch 1, no 3. TGrand458@... In a message dated 3/8/2007 12:33:19 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, buddhatrue@... writes: I was concerned because you wrote that the water element isn't a separate element. You still haven't addressed that. Hi James What makes the "water element" of special distinction from the other elements? Merely its liquidity? I don't think so. Virtually any element can become a liquid depending on the temperature. I think the key aspect that "water" symbolizes is "coalescence." In this regard I am in close proximity to Abhidhamma analysis. TG #69348 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Mar 8, 2007 11:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg]Q. Re: Letters on Vipassana 9, no 7. nilovg Dear Matheesha, I appreciate your interest. Phassa cetasika assists the citta it accompanies, iot contacts the object so that citta can experience it. I leave tomorrow, but I give an extract from my Cetasikas (on Zolag and on Abhidhamma Vipassana): < Contact, in Pali: phassa, is mentioned first among the Universal. Phassa arises together with every citta; it "contacts" the object so that citta can experience it. When seeing experiences visible object, phassa which accompanies seeing-consciousness also experiences visible object but it performs its own function. At that moment phassa "contacts" visible object and conditions seeing-consciousness to see. The Atthasalini (Expositor, Part IV, chapter I, 108) states about contact: Contact means "it touches" It has touching as its salient characteristic, impact as its function, "coinciding" (of the physical base, object and consciousness) as its manifestation, and the object which has entered the avenue (of awareness) as proximate cause . The Visuddhimagga (Path of Purification XIV, 134) gives a similar definition. Phassa is different from what we mean in conventional language by physical contact or touch. When we use the word contact in conventional language we may think of the impingement of something external on one of the senses, for example the impingement of hardness on the bodysense. We may use words such as touching or impingement in order to describe phassa, but we should not forget that phassa is nama, a cetasika which arises together with the citta and assists the citta so that it can experience the object which presents itself through the appropriate doorway. When hardness presents itself through the bodysense there is phassa, contact, arising together with the citta which experiences the hardness. Phassa is not the mere collision of hardness with the bodysense, it is not touch in the physical sense. Impact is the function of phassa in the sense that it assists the citta so that it can cognize the object. Phassa is manifested by coinciding or concurrence, namely, by the coinciding of three factors: physical base (vatthu), object and consciousness. . When there is seeing, there is the coinciding of eye (the eyebase), visible object and seeing-consciousness; through this concurrence phassa, which is in this case eye-contact, is manifested. We read in the 'Discourse of the Honey-ball' (Middle Length sayings I, no. 18) that Maha-kaccana explained to the monks concerning contact: (1 See Dhammasangani (the first book of the Abhidhamma), 2. This book has been translated by the Pali Text Society under the title af Buddhist Psychological Ethics.) This situation occurs: that when there is eye, your reverences, when there is visible object, when there is visual consciousness, one will recognise the manifestation of sensory impingement (phassa)... When there is the concurrence of the ear, sound and hearing-consciousness, there is the manifestation of ear-contact. When there is the concurrence of body-sense, a tangible object such as hardness and the experience of hardness, there is the manifestation of body-contact. Eye-contact is different from ear-contact and different from body- contact. At each moment of citta there is a different phassa which conditions the citta to experience an object.> Thus it is not aaramma.na, but it contacts it. Nina. Op 8-mrt-2007, om 12:15 heeft matheesha het volgende geschreven: > Could you kindly explain the nature of phassa please? I recently read > that it is a Nama dhamma. Yet it comprises of rupa presenting to a > sense door, the sense door and vinnana at that sense door. So is this > like a mental represenation of the 'external' world? I would > appreciate > your understanding of the matter. How does that differ > from 'aarammana', or 'nimitta' or is it the same? #69349 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Mar 8, 2007 11:43 am Subject: Q. Re: Rupas. Introduction, 1.vipassana ~naa.na. nilovg Dear Scott, thank you for the quote. I would like to spend more time on it, but for now I select some passages. --------- N: "We need more examples, and in the following sections you can read more about navattaaramma.na." I'll wait. -------- N: I remembered from the Thai sessions that the person who attained enlightenment and reviews Nibbaana (paccavekkhana ~naa.na) has as object navattabbaarama.na. We cannot say that this is a concept, it is not classifiable. But I cannot explain more about this. --------- Kh. Sujin: "All the time. What is left is just a sign of something like sign of visible object, but actually each one has fallen away...already." Q: "When satipa.t.thaana is very developed..?" Kh. Sujin: "Its the beginning of seeing the difference between concept and reality..." Q: "At naama-ruupa-pariccheda~naa.na?" Kh. Sujin: "Not yet...just know the moment with sati and without sati...Whenever it is aware of a characteristic. So in a day only different characteristics appearing. --------- Nina (added now): When the difference between the moment with sati and without sati is known (and this is the beginning) there is more understanding of what is a concept (a whole we are thinking of, such as a person, a table) and what a reality. ---------- Sujin:Like nimitta too, when there is no awareness. And one can see that the object of satipa.t.thaana is a characteristic of a reality, but still, as long as it is not a moment of realising the arising and falling away, it is still nimitta. And even at that moment after experiencing the arising a falling away the just one characteristic is nimitta of that reality. -------- Nina (now): Even after realizing the aaising and falling away there is also the experience of nimitta, as I mentioned before. ---------- Q: "Is it a paramattha dhamma or not a paramattha dhamma?" Kh. Sujin: "Reality is paramattha. And nimitta is the shadow of paramattha dhamma." ------ Nina (now): As Sarah brought up before. It is helpful to remember this. -------- Kh. Sujin: "Not concept. Because when we talk about shadow its not any word." ------- Nina (now): It is a helpful simile and we should not reason about it too much. ---------- Q: "But in the Abhidhammattha Sangaha they talk about the shadow of realities. I always thought that was referring to concepts." Kh. Sujin: "But without [the reality] that can there be any shadows?...So we have to know what concept we mean ----------- Nina (now): When we speak about the image and the details of what is perceived, concept as shadow of realities (as in the Abh. Sangaha) is used in a different way. She mentioned that there are different levels of nimitta. As we read in the suttas we are infatutuated by the outward appearance of things, the image and the details. But as Kh Sujin uses the word nimitta of rupa, of feeling, etc. it is used in a different way. It pertains to nama and rupa that arise and fall away. ---------- Sujin: .when pa~n~na grows it knows the difference between the conditioned reality which has nimitta of each one or its own and Nibbaana which doesn't have any nimitta at all..." ------- Nina (now): Even for those who have not attained enlightenment this can be understood when the meaning of nimitta of conditioned dhammas is more and more known. I guess there will be some more questions about this subject. After may return. Nina. #69350 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Mar 8, 2007 11:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] A cremation, just like now! upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and Herman) - -----Original Message----- From: sarahprocterabbott@... To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 1:24 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] A cremation, just like now! Hi Herman, --- Herman Hofman wrote: > > >H:There is never just hearing, or just > > > seeing, no hearing in general, or seeing in general, it is always > > > seeing or hearing something specific. > > .... > > S: > > 1. Yes! It is always seeing of a particular visible object or hearing > of a > > particular sound. > > > > 2. In the same way, it is never just being aware or understanding in > > general, but being aware or understanding a specific characteristic. > > > > 3. So all cittas experience an object. When the cittas accompanied by > > awareness and understanding (and other sobhana cetasikas) arise, they > > experience a dhamma. Such a dhamma may be seeing, hearing or any other > > presently appearing dhamma. > > ***** > >H: If you are saying that at point 3 there is consciousness of being > conscious, as well as consciousness of the object, then I agree. ... S: I'm saying: 1. Consciousness (citta) is always conscious of something - whether that be a nama, a rupa or a concept. 2. So consciousness is often conscious of consciousness/being conscious (a kind of nama, such as seeing or hearing). 3. When it is conscious of consciousness, such as seeing consciousness, it is not conscious of visible object or any other object at the same time. -------------------------------- Howard: With regard to item #3: Where is the consciousness that is the object, e.g., a seeing consciousness at the time it is the object of consciousness? The only possible answer is that it cannot exist! And in that case, what does it mean for there to be a consciousness of "it"? Please don't gloss over this by saying "It has just fallen away," for that is not a real answer. The situation seems to be that of a consciousness of a nonexisting consciousness. Now, this is a real problem, Sarah! ------------------------------------ 4. Similarly, when consciousness (citta) is conscious (i.e experiences)visible object or any other rupa, it doesn't experience a nama (or a concept) at that instant. Are we still in agreement here? [apology for delay just deleted as I remembered you don't care for them;-)] Metta, Sarah ======= ==================================== With metta, Howard #69351 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Mar 8, 2007 11:51 am Subject: Rupas, Ch 2, no 2. nilovg Dear friends, If one does not develop understanding of realities one will be enslaved by all objects experienced through the senses. On account of these objects akusala cittas tend to arise and even unwholesome deeds may be committed. When someone thinks that there is a self who can own what is seen, touched or smelt, he may even steal or kill. In reality all these objects are insignificant, they arise and then fall away immediately. As regards flavour, the “Dhammasangaùi” (§ 629) mentions different kinds of flavour, such as sour, sweet, bitter or pungent; they may be nice or nauseous, but they are all just flavour, experienced through the tongue. The “Atthasåliní” (II, Book II, Ch III, 320) defines flavour as follows 4 : ... all tastes have the characteristic of striking the tongue, the property of being the object of gustatory cognition, the manifestation of being the field of the same.... Its proximate cause is the four Great Elements. Flavour does not arise alone, it needs the four Great Elements which arise together with it, and it is also accompanied by the other rúpas included in the eight inseparable rúpas. We are attached to food and we find its flavour very important. As soon as we have tasted delicious flavour attachment tends to arise. We are forgetful of the reality of flavour which is only a kind of rúpa. When we recognize what kind of flavour we taste, we think about a concept, but the thinking is conditioned by the experience of flavour through the tongue. Nutrition is another kind of rúpa which has to arise with every kind of materiality. It can be exerienced only through the mind-door. The “Dhammasangaùi” (§ 646) mentions food such as boiled rice, sour gruel, flour, etc., which can be eaten and digested into the “juice” by which living beings are kept alive. The “Atthasåliní” (II, Book II, Ch III, 330) explains that there is foodstuff, the substance which is swallowed (kabaîinkåro åhåro, literally, morsel-made food), and the “nutritive essence”(ojå). The foodstuff which is swallowed fills the stomach so that one does not grow hungry. The nutritive essence present in food preserves beings, keeps them alive. The nutritive essence in gross foodstuff is weak, and in subtle foodstuff it is strong. After eating coarse grain one becomes hungry after a brief interval. But when one has taken ghee (butter) one does not want to eat for a long time (Atthasåliní, 331). ******* Nina. #69352 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Mar 8, 2007 11:51 am Subject: Letters on Vipassana 9. no 8 nilovg Dear friends, By developing satipatthåna one will have a deeper understanding of kamma and vipåka. Someone remarked that it is a relief to understand kamma and vipåka, to know that things have to happen and that it is of no use to try to control one's life. Khun Sujin remarked that when one thinks, "It is kamma, it is vipåka", it is not as precise as the direct understanding of kamma and vipåka which is acquired through awareness of the realities which appear. We say that seeing and hearing are vipåka, but we just repeat what is in the text. Our understanding is still superficial. When there is awareness and direct understanding of these realities there will be a clearer understanding of what vipåka is. There are different stages of insight, vipassanå ~naa.na, and at each stage paññå realizes the nature of the realities which appear more clearly. As paññå develops kamma and vipåka will be seen more clearly. While one is developing understanding one should not expect clear understanding of realities immediately. Khun Sujin remarked that the sharp and keen understanding is the result which will arise later, one should not have expectations. One is on the right way and one does not mind when and where there will be result, it will arise when it is the right time. There can be understanding of seeing right now, one does not have to waste time. When right understanding is developed in daily life it can condition more patience in the different situations. Situations change all the time and life can be complicated. We may be overburdened by work or we may have problems concerning our relatives. I will quote a conversation about the perfection of patience between Khun Sujin and Sarah. Khun Sujin: "If there are no difficult situations how does one know that right understanding can cope with them, that it can know the different realities which appear? When there is more understanding of realities as not self there is more patience. When there is patience it can be understood as 'nobody'." ******* Nina. #69353 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Thu Mar 8, 2007 12:56 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kenh - bombs, monks etc egberdina Hi Robert, On 08/03/07, rjkjp1 wrote: > > Dear Herman > Here is the story > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/burlingame/wheel324.html Thanks for the details. It appears from this that even in former times shrine worship was considered important. And that once one becomes an arahant or anagami, one is able to obtain food magically. Kind Regards Herman #69354 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Thu Mar 8, 2007 12:58 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Starting of a World System egberdina Hi RobM On 08/03/07, robmoult wrote: > Hi Herman & Connie, > > > Sorry to disagree, but.... > > In AN6.63, the Buddha said, "Intention, I tell you, is kamma. > Intending, one does kamma by way of body, speech, & intellect." > Just when I thought I had outsmarted the universe :-) Kind Regards Herman #69355 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Thu Mar 8, 2007 1:06 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Rants and Raves ;-))( Re: New Pic!) egberdina Hi James, On 08/03/07, buddhatrue wrote: > Hi Herman, > > > Some identify self with the body, some identify self with > consciousness, some identify self with feelings, some identify self > with perception, and some identify self with mental volitions. Some > identify self with all, some, or none of the above. > > Herman, it is obvious by your statements and question that you > identify self with consciousness. > > Paranibbana means total unbinding, it doesn't mean total > annihilation. However, if you identify yourself with consciousness, > how can you possibly understanding total unbinding (as 'yourself' now > bound to consciousness)? To you, there is no unbinding, there is > only annihilation. Herman, your question should be put aside because > it isn't conducive to nibbana. Let me quote a few suttas as an > answer: > Thanks for all the quotes. They affirm to me that there is consciousness/object, and nibbana. Kind Regards Herman #69356 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Thu Mar 8, 2007 1:43 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A cremation, just like now! egberdina Hi Sarah, On 08/03/07, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Herman, > ... > S: I'm saying: > 1. Consciousness (citta) is always conscious of something - whether that > be a nama, a rupa or a concept. Yes. (as well as being conscious of not being that object it is conscious of) > > 2. So consciousness is often conscious of consciousness/being conscious (a > kind of nama, such as seeing or hearing). > No, not without object. This is simply thinking, consciousness of thinking. > 3. When it is conscious of consciousness, such as seeing consciousness, it > is not conscious of visible object or any other object at the same time. Seeing consciousness (without object) is concept, it is abstraction, it is thinking. So I read the above as saying that with consciousness of thinking, there is no consciousness of other objects. Which sounds fair enough to me, as long as the consciousness of the thinking and the thinking are not one. > > 4. Similarly, when consciousness (citta) is conscious (i.e > experiences)visible object or any other rupa, it doesn't experience a nama > (or a concept) at that instant. As above. > > Are we still in agreement here? We are in firm agreement on point 1 :-) > > [apology for delay just deleted as I remembered you don't care for > them;-)] > Would it create merit for you if I allowed you to apologise to me ? In that case, apologise all day if you want :-) Kind Regards Herman #69357 From: han tun Date: Thu Mar 8, 2007 2:51 pm Subject: Daana Corner & Vessantara panha hantun1 Dear Robert, Herman, Matheesha and others, In Milinda Panha, there is one panha: VIII.1, Vessantara panha. King Milinda asked whether Prince Vessantara gave away wife and children with their consent; and if the children had to follow Juujakaa very much frightened and in tears, what benefit would it bring by such a daana, and many other questions. It is a very lengthy one. Does anyone have an English translation of this panha? Thank you very much. Respectfully, Han #69358 From: "Larry" Date: Thu Mar 8, 2007 3:52 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 138 and Tiika lbidd2 Hi Nina, Regarding kamma as object of the process preceding death, U Narada: "When past faultless or faulty volition is taken as object it is kamma object;" L: Does this mean that in this case kamma becomes kamma vipaka when it becomes rebirth consciousness? Larry #69359 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Mar 8, 2007 4:20 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Rupas, Ch 1, no 3. buddhatrue Hi TG, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@... wrote: > > > In a message dated 3/8/2007 12:33:19 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, > buddhatrue@... writes: > > I was concerned > because you wrote that the water element isn't a separate element. > You still haven't addressed that. > > Hi James > > What makes the "water element" of special distinction from the other > elements? Merely its liquidity? James: Yes! I don't think so. James: Why not? That is what makes it distinctive to the other elements. Virtually any element can > become a liquid depending on the temperature. James: Now you are mixing science with Buddhadhamma. We are not talking about the Periodic Chart of the elements, we are talking about the 4 Great Elements as taught by the Buddha. The 4 Great Elements are defined based on their properties. For example: Water is the water element; ice is the earth element; steam is the fire element; and fog is the air element. They are each composed of H2O in scientific terms, but they are different elements in Buddhadhamma terms. Am I making myself clear enough? I think the key aspect that "water" > symbolizes is "coalescence." In this regard I am in close proximity to > Abhidhamma analysis. James: Okay, I am completely lost as to what you mean here. We seem to be talking past each other. > > TG Metta, James #69360 From: connie Date: Thu Mar 8, 2007 4:36 pm Subject: Re: Starting of a World System nichiconn Hey Herman, (RobM,) > In AN6.63, the Buddha said, "Intention, I tell you, is kamma. > Intending, one does kamma by way of body, speech, & intellect." Herman: Just when I thought I had outsmarted the universe :-) Connie: Nope, just me! :) Maybe now that we've found a bench on our garden path, we can think about what kinds of completed course(s) of action there might be in those planes? No sotapanna fruition arising in the arupa planes, tho, which might be an argument for not working too hard at attaining or mastering arupa jhaana. ;) peace, c. #69361 From: "robmoult" Date: Thu Mar 8, 2007 6:58 pm Subject: All about formless planes (was: Starting of a World System) robmoult Hi Connie / Herman, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connie wrote: > > Hey Herman, (RobM,) > > > In AN6.63, the Buddha said, "Intention, I tell you, is kamma. > > Intending, one does kamma by way of body, speech, & intellect." > > Herman: Just when I thought I had outsmarted the universe :-) > > Connie: Nope, just me! :) > > Maybe now that we've found a bench on our garden path, we can think about > what kinds of completed course(s) of action there might be in those planes? > > No sotapanna fruition arising in the arupa planes, tho, which might be an > argument for not working too hard at attaining or mastering arupa jhaana. > ;) > ===== Everything you wanted to know about the formless planes but were afraid to ask.... There are four formless planes: - "Infinite space" with a lifespan of 20,000 world systems - "Infinite consciousness" with a lifespan of 40,000 world systems - "Nothingness" with a lifespan of 60,000 world systems - "Neither perception nor non-perception" with a lifespan of 84,000 world systems Beings in these worlds are pure mind and have no body. Similar to the rupa-loka, the arupa-loka is closely connected with the arupa jhana. This jhana can be developed only when a person has experienced and then abandoned all the four stages of rupa jhana. There are four stages of arupa jhana and the four realms of the arupa-loka correspond to the stage of arupa jhana maintained. Alara, the ascetic who was the first teacher abandoned by the Buddha, was reborn in the Nothingness realm after dying one week before the Buddha decided to teach the Dhamma. Udaka, the ascetic who was the second teacher abandoned by the Buddha, was reborn in the Neither Perception nor Non-perception realm after dying on the night before the Buddha decided to teach the Dhamma. To explain the concept of a mind existing without a body, the texts use an analogy of an iron bar flung into the air. For a certain period, depending on the energy with which it is flung, the bar remains in the air without any support. This analogy explains how the mind exists for a period of time without any physical support. Because these are the "highest" realms, one might mistakenly conclude that these are the "objective" of Buddhism. In fact, beings are propelled into these realms because of the delusion that the body is the source of suffering and a desire to be without body. Beings remain in this state for an incredibly long time but they are unable to hear the Dhamma or see a Buddha, so they do not improve themselves. Once their kammic force expires, they return to samsara. Beings in the woeful planes cannot be reborn into the formless planes. Beings in the happy destinations (humans and devas) can be reborn into the formless planes if they already have three-roots in their bhavanga and with suitable final object. Most beings in the fine material realms (first four jhanas) can be reborn into the formless planes with a suitable final object. The exceptions are the beings in the five pure abodes or the beings in the realm without mind (asannasatta realm). Uninstructed worldlings in the plane of infinite space can be reborn in the happy destinations (human and devas) or in any of the four formless realms. Learners in the plan of infinite space can be reborn in any of the four formless realms. Uninstructed worldlings in the plane of infinite consciousness can be reborn in the happy destinations (human and devas) or in any of the three upper formless realms. Learners in the plan of infinite consciousness can be reborn in any of the three upper formless realms. Uninstructed worldlings in the plane of nothingness can be reborn in the happy destinations (human and devas) or in any of the two upper formless realms. Learners in the plan of nothingness can be reborn in any of the two upper formless realms. Uninstructed worldlings in the plane of neither perception nor nonperception can be reborn in the happy destinations (human and devas) or again in the realm of neither perception nor nonperception. Learners in the plan of neither perception nor nonperception can only be reborn in the realm of neither perception nor nonperception. In other words, learners will stay in the 31st plane until they attain arahantship. Uninstructed worldlings in the formless realms can experience the eight unwholesome cittas rooted in attachment and the two unwholesome cittas rooted in delusion. Uninstructed worldlings in the formless realms can not experience the two unwholesome cittas rooted in aversion. Learners in the formless realms can experience the four unwholesome cittas rooted in attachment which arise without wrong view and the unwholesome citta associated with restlessness. Of course, Arahants do not experience any unwholsome cittas in the formless realms (or in any other realms). Since there are only mind-door processes in the formless realms, no type of beings will experience receiving, investigating, etc. cittas. All beings will, of course, experience mind-door adverting cittas. Uninstructed worldlings and learners in the formless realms can experience the wholesome kamma-creating cittas associated with the sensuous planes (i.e. no jhana) and with the fine material planes (first four jhanas), but most of their time they will be experiencing the wholesome kamma-creating cittas associated with the immaterial planes (i.e. formless jhana). Arahants can have similar mental states except that they do not create new kamma (functional / kiriya). The first level of formless jhana takes infinite space as its object. The second level of formless jhana takes the the citta of the first level of formless jhana as its object. The third level of formless jhana takes nothingness as its object. The fourth (and highest) level of formless jhana takes the citta of the third level of formless jhana as its object. It is possible to progress through the path cittas associated with sainthood while in the formless planes. For example, while in the formless plane, a uninstructed worldling can attain a change-of- lineage and become a sotapanna. Of course, once a sotapanna, the being can enjoy the associated fruit citta. Connie / Herman, I suspect that I have given you far more than what you were looking for and it feels as though you are trying to take a drink out of a fire hose. Please feel free to ask more questions about the specific topics that interest you and ignore the rest :-) Metta, Rob M :-) #69362 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Thu Mar 8, 2007 7:16 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Kenh - bombs, monks etc rjkjp1 Dear Herman There was nothing magical. The two bhikkhu gained their powers through attainment and jhana mastery. Robert In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > > Hi Robert, > > On 08/03/07, rjkjp1 wrote: > > > > Dear Herman > > Here is the story > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/burlingame/wheel324.html > > Thanks for the details. It appears from this that even in former times > shrine worship was considered important. And that once one becomes an > arahant or anagami, one is able to obtain food magically. > > Kind Regards > > > Herman > #69363 From: "robmoult" Date: Thu Mar 8, 2007 7:50 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 138 and Tiika robmoult Hi Larry (and Nina), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" wrote: > > Hi Nina, > > Regarding kamma as object of the process preceding death, > > U Narada: "When past faultless or faulty volition is taken as object > it is kamma object;" > > L: Does this mean that in this case kamma becomes kamma vipaka when it becomes rebirth > consciousness? > > Larry > ===== Sorry to jump in, but maybe I can answer to take some of the load off of Nina :-) There is some confusion because the term "kamma" is used in two ways. In this case, there is some past action which is called "kamma" (perhaps the action of making a donation). During the death process, this action becomes the OBJECT of the process. The javana cittas which are part of the death process have this past action (called "kamma") as an object. The rebirth linking consciousness of the next existence is a kamma- result (vipaka). The rebirth linking consciousness of the next existence is a result of the javana cittas of the previous life's death process. The rebirth linking consciousness of the next existence takes the same object that was taken by the javana cittas of the previous life's death process. In this case, the object is called "kamma" (i.e. the action of making a donation). The fact that in this case, the object is called "kamma" is separate from the kamma-vipaka relationship between the javana cittas of the death process and the rebirth linking citta of the next existence. Even in cases where the object is called "sign of kamma" or "sign of destiny" (the other two options), there is still the same kamma- vipaka relationship between the javana cittas of the death process and the rebirth linking citta of the next existence. Hope this helps! Metta, Rob M :-) PS: If I messed up, I hope that Nina will correct me :-) #69364 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Thu Mar 8, 2007 7:50 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Daana Corner & Vessantara panh egberdina Hi Han, On 09/03/07, han tun wrote: > Dear Robert, Herman, Matheesha and others, > > In Milinda Panha, there is one panha: > VIII.1, Vessantara panha. > > King Milinda asked whether Prince Vessantara gave away > wife and children with their consent; and if the > children had to follow Juujakaa very much frightened > and in tears, what benefit would it bring by such a > daana, and many other questions. It is a very lengthy > one. Does anyone have an English translation of this > panha? Thanks for the above. the full text is available on-line from http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/milinda.htm I will try and find the answer later, but would certainly be interested in your comments. Kind Regards Herman #69365 From: connie Date: Thu Mar 8, 2007 8:07 pm Subject: Re: All about formless planes nichiconn Thanks for the fire-hose, RobM! I'm glad it seems you might have a bit of "free time"! Not to ignore the rest, but I was surprised to read that << while in the formless plane, a uninstructed worldling can attain a change-of-lineage and become a sotapanna. Of course, once a sotapanna, the being can enjoy the associated fruit citta. >> Can you say more about how this could happen without rupa? I guess s/he would already have had to attain to some levels of insight... ?? peace, connie #69366 From: han tun Date: Thu Mar 8, 2007 8:37 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Daana Corner & Vessantara panha hantun1 Dear Herman, Thank you very much. Based on the link you have kindly provided, I found the specific panha in the following link: http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/sbe36/sbe3606.htm I will print it and study it carefully. As it is a lengthy one, it will take me some time. Respectfully, Han --- Herman Hofman wrote: > > Thanks for the above. the full text is available > on-line from > http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/milinda.htm > > I will try and find the answer later, but would > certainly be > interested in your comments. #69367 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Mar 8, 2007 9:09 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 138 and Tiika nilovg Hi Larry, The kamma committed before and 'remembered' during the last javanacittas is the janaka kamma, producing kamma, that produces rebirth of the next life. The last javanacittas themselves are weak (dubbala), and the previous kamma that is their object is the object conditioned by the janaka kamma. That former kamma that is 'done and accumulated' (katatta upacita) is the janaka kamma that produces the rebirth. Nina. Op 9-mrt-2007, om 0:52 heeft Larry het volgende geschreven: > Does this mean that in this case kamma becomes kamma vipaka when it > becomes rebirth > consciousness? #69368 From: "colette" Date: Thu Mar 8, 2007 4:44 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Kusala and akusala, Can I have "Akusala for 200 Alex" ksheri3 Hi Jonothan, Only a few seconds: > Thanks for the encouragement, but the problem colette: John Lennon said: "I tell them there's no problem, only solutions" Don't be so negative. with the approach you > suggest is that any choices made are only as soundly based as our > ignorance and wrong view will permit. colette: it sounds as if we have a believer in the Qliphoth, or keliphot. Why do you personalize, gratify, and magnify, IGNORANCE and WRONG VIEW? they permit anything if they were conscious or had consciousness <.....> That is not to say there is never > wholesomeness or even perhaps awareness, but these moments are in the > minority, and cannot be summoned to be present when we are making choices. colette: who taught you how to be human? Where did this users manual come from? Where is this users manual? You have to see yourself as the prey and preditor all in the same thought. INSTICT. Step right up, place your bets. Everybodies a winner. > > >> I don't think it's necessary to be in anyone's shoes in order to > >> consider the concept of kusala/akusala. > >> > > > > colette: When I spoke of "being in another's shoes" I meant that > > rethorically, as in POINT OF VIEW (POV). Kusala/Akusala are both only > > concepts of illusory situations we find ourselves in. > > > > If kusala/akusala are concepts of illusory situations we find ourselves > in, it would not be possible to know whether one's own presently arising > consciousness is kusala or aksuala. colette: how are things doing down there in the accounting dept.? You micro-managers and/or numbers crunchers are something. Why does it have to be deducible and, no less, deducible so that you can rest assured that your GLASS HOUSE IS BETTER THAN THE GLASS HOUSE OF YOUR NEIGHBOR? Gots ta go. Thanx for the thought. toodles, colette <...> #69369 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Thu Mar 8, 2007 9:34 pm Subject: Focusing on Mentality! bhikkhu5 Friends: Awareness of Mind just as Moods & Mentality! The Blessed Buddha said regarding Contemplation of Mind: How, Bhikkhus & Friends, does one reflect on Mind just as Moods? Herein one knows when the mind is greedy or not greedy, angry or not angry, confused or unconfused, cramped or scattered, exalted or unexalted, surpassable or unsurpassable, & one clearly notes & understands when the mind is concentrated or unconcentrated, & one notices & understands when the mind is released or unreleased! Thus one lives while internally considering own mind, or externally the mind of others, or the mind of both. One notices how any new mood and mentality arises, or how it passes away. Or one is simply aware: Mind is in this or that mood now; just enough for mindful & clear comprehension of the present actual mental state. Caused by this mindfull mental presence and acute and clear comprehension of the current momentary mental state one comes to live independent, unattached, and not clinging to anything in this world whatsoever.... Thus does one dwell immersed in contemplation of the mind! Source Text: Majjhima Nikaya 10: Satipatthana Sutta: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.010.nysa.html What is the Fuel on which any Momentary Event of Mind burns? The proximate causes of arising of any mood and mentality are: Presence of 1: Ignorance , 2: Craving , 3: Kamma , & 4: Name-&-Form.. The proximate causes of ceasing of any mood and mentality are: Absence of 1: Ignorance , 2: Craving , 3: Kamma , & 4: Name-&-Form.. Prerequisite understanding: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/What_is_Ignorance.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/The_3_kinds_of_Craving.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/Buddha_on_Kamma.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Causes_of_Emergence.htm Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Ceylon * <....> #69370 From: LBIDD@... Date: Thu Mar 8, 2007 10:14 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 138 and Tiika lbidd2 Hi Nina (and Rob), N: " The kamma committed before and 'remembered' during the last javanacittas is the janaka kamma, producing kamma, that produces rebirth of the next life. The last javanacittas themselves are weak (dubbala), and the previous kamma that is their object is the object conditioned by the janaka kamma. That former kamma that is 'done and accumulated' (katatta upacita) is the janaka kamma that produces the rebirth." L: What is the term for objects of consciousness that arise because of kamma? "Kamma produced"? It occurred to me that when a volitional consciousness is the object of any kind of consciousness it has no volitional potency in the sense that it can't condition kamma vipaka or accumulate. Does this have something to do with the nature of an object of consciousness? For example, an object of consciousness is implicitly other than present consciousness. Larry #69371 From: "matheesha" Date: Thu Mar 8, 2007 11:03 pm Subject: [dsg]Q. Re: Letters on Vipassana 9, no 7. matheesha333 Hi Nina, Thank you for writing in even though you were short on time. Much appreciated. Hope you have a safe journey. with metta Matheesha #69372 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Mar 9, 2007 12:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Outstanding Women in Buddhism sarahprocter... Dear Han, Nina & all, --- han tun wrote: > Dear Sarah, Jon and others, > > I dropped in at the UN-ESCAP Conference Center to see > the Outstanding Women in Buddhism Awards Ceremony. > The program of the day (7 March 2007) is as follows: ... S: Thank you for all this information, most of which we had no idea about. I've just spoken to our friend (K.Duangduen) who attended with K.Sujin. It seems as though it was a long day with so many talks, but everyone was v.happy with the speech KS gave. (She just amended the last line as far as I know, otherwise it was the last version we posted here). She asked someone else from the Foundation to attend the day on the 9th to give the 2nd talk. Thanks Han and everyone else for your kind assistance. Metta, Sarah ======= #69373 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Fri Mar 9, 2007 12:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kenh - bombs, monks etc egberdina Hi RobK, On 09/03/07, rjkjp1 wrote: > Dear Herman > > There was nothing magical. The two bhikkhu gained their powers > through attainment and jhana mastery. > Robert Thank you for differentiating between powers and magic. To be honest, I do not see a difference. Both powers, and magic (powers), are abilities that run contrary to conditionality. It would, no doubt, be a great boon to have this ability to sidestep conditionality for those filled with craving. Kind Regards Herman #69374 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Fri Mar 9, 2007 12:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Starting of a World System egberdina Hi Connie, On 09/03/07, connie wrote: > Hey Herman, (RobM,) > > > In AN6.63, the Buddha said, "Intention, I tell you, is kamma. > > Intending, one does kamma by way of body, speech, & intellect." > > Herman: Just when I thought I had outsmarted the universe :-) > > Connie: Nope, just me! :) > > Maybe now that we've found a bench on our garden path, we can think about > what kinds of completed course(s) of action there might be in those planes? I am enjoying this repose whilst walking around the garden :-) I haven't quite caught up with you yet, though. It seems one can't be reborn as a plant, but one can be reborn as a being without a mind. But even though plants are strenuously denied any faculties by Buddhists, rebirth as a plant without a mind just cannot happen, for as yet unexpressed reasons. I am rather getting the feeling that Buddhists furiously protest that plants do not have any faculties, because otherwise Buddhists would be like Jains. Yecchh. > > No sotapanna fruition arising in the arupa planes, tho, which might be an > argument for not working too hard at attaining or mastering arupa jhaana. > ;) > What would you think would be worth working hard at, Connie ? Peace is good, here and now Herman #69375 From: han tun Date: Fri Mar 9, 2007 1:56 am Subject: Daana Corner (14) hantun1 Dear Dhamma Friends, This is taken from “The Practice of Giving” by Susan Elbaum Jootla. Susan wrote the essay in the following sub-headings: * The Factor of Volition * The Recipient of Gifts * The Objects to be Given * The Perfection of Giving * The Ultimate Goal of Giving The following is *The Perfection of Giving* (second half) Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ------------------------------ As Prince Vessantara, the Bodhisatta gave the auspicious, powerful royal elephant to the people of a rival kingdom merely because they had requested it. As a result of this liberality, he and his wife and two small children were banished to a remote mountain. They lived there in the forest, Vessantara tending his son and daughter in their hut while his wife spent the days gathering the wild fruits on which they lived. One day a traveler chanced by and asked the Bodhisatta to give him the children. Vessantara gave them away without any hesitation at all. Later he gave away his virtuous wife too. "Neither child was disagreeable to me, the Lady Maddi was not disagreeable. Omniscience was dear to me, therefore I gave away those who were dear" (I, 9). It should be noted that at that time, a man's children and wife were generally considered his property. Ages before, the Lady Maddi had aspired to be the wife of the Bodhisatta and to share whatever trials he had to undergo along the path to Buddhahood. The result of her own kamma complemented Prince Vessanatara's volition and led to her being given away. Their children must also have been experiencing the results of their own past deeds when they had to leave their parents. Another time the Bodhisatta took birth as a wise hare. That existence came to an end when, joyously, he jumped into a fire after inviting a famished brahman (again, Sakka in disguise) to eat him roasted. Because of the purity of the Bodhisatta's mind while making this highest gift of his entire body and life, the blazing fire did not hurt him as it burned his flesh. In relating the story he said that, in fact, the fire had calmed him and brought him peace as if it had been cool water, because he had accomplished the complete perfection of giving. The End of *The Perfection of Giving* The *The Ultimate Goal of Giving* will be in next pouch. Han #69376 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Fri Mar 9, 2007 2:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Daana Corner (14) egberdina Dear Han, On 09/03/07, han tun wrote: > Dear Dhamma Friends, > As a courtesy, I am telling you that if you intend to post anything that gives a stamp of approval to the trading of children in a spiritual quest, I will hold make you accountable for those statements. Kind Regards Herman #69377 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Mar 9, 2007 2:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The psychological self sarahprocter... Hi Herman, --- Herman Hofman wrote: Entire lifetimes are lived in > private heavens and hells. The beginning of insight, for such people, > is the appearance of the boundary self/not-self, mine/not-mine. ... S: Sanna vipallasa (perversion of perception)- in these cases, conventional realities are mis-perceived too. In a deeper sense, whenever the sanna is not connected with dana, sila or bhavana, it is sanna vipallasa for us all....so even though we may appreciate the boundaries, we're still living in ignorance-induced heavens and hells and fantasy lands.....Different dramas being played out according to different kinds of sanna vipallasa accumulated for such. So, as we read, all worldlings are madmen. This isn't to down-play the difficulties and dangers for those who cannot function in society as you describe. You described the process well and I feel a lot of compassion for those experiencing such living nightmares. The insight you refer to above as being required is the conventional insight, not the insight into dhammas. Insight into dhammas will of course be the greatest help and support for those who can listen. Metta, Sarah ======= #69378 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Mar 9, 2007 3:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Re: Rupas. Introduction, 1.vipassana ~naa.na. sarahprocter... Dear Scott, --- Scott Duncan wrote: > Scott: I think the phrase 'by way of' is telling in relation to this > na-vatabba, since I think it seems to indicate that experience makes > use of this apparently intermediate sort of object - the > unclassifiable object. ... Sarah: There is the experience of a paramatha dhamma by way of na-vatabba and there is the experience of a concept by way of navatabba. Better not to think of navatabba at all than to think of it as some intermediate object between the two. As KS said in the good quote you gave: ".....if the characteristic succeeds just suddenly, instantly, and it is the characteristic of paramattha dhamma, its said that it is paramattha dhamma and it is also present too, because its not the thought about paramattha dhamma but its the moment when paramattha dhamma has [succeeded] the appearance from sense-door to mind-door" ... Scott:> In the above, Kh. Sujin notes that there is no suppression between the > sense-door and mind-door by thinking. Is it fair to suggest that, > since no thinking supervenes - that is, no concept - then this > 'characteristic' which is not the 'original' ruupa but is nonetheless > the characteristic is not concept and not ruupa but only > 'characteristic'? ... Sarah: It is the characteristic of the rupa, but it is also said to be the present rupa, because it's the reality. ... And that this is the na-vatabba object in this case? ... Sarah: rupa, reality, by way of navatabba. Once after I'd had a detailed discussion on the point with KS, one of our Thai friends raised a question about the topic in a Thai session, but KS refused to answer because she felt it would take the general audience away from understanding namas and rupas now. I think we need to also be careful in this regard, i.e not to get too bogged down in the analysis.....sometimes KS reminds me of this and I find it helpful. .... > > In other words, the unclassifiable object is neither ruupa nor > concept but some transitional phenomenon. I'd like to be precise > here. ... Sarah: I appreciate this. I wouldn't describe it as a 'transitional phenomenon'. It's either a reality or concept, but by way of navatabba. .. >I don't wish to stray into my own theory on na-vatabba objects, > although there is lobha as I embrace the intricacy of theory here. > I'll keep looking for more. Do you have any further references? ... Sarah: One that can be found in the commentaries that I find helpful is in relation to paccavekhana or reviewing consciousness after the lokuttara cittas which have experienced nibbana have fallen away. The succeeding paccavekkhana cittas experience and review the path factors, nibbana, frution consciousness, the defilements eradicated and so on. None of this is by thinking but by direct realization. The path factors, nibbana and so on are paramattha dhammas experienced as such, by way of navatabba. (The same applies to the reviewing cittas immediately succeeding jhana experiences and so on.) I think when this example is appreciated, it's clear. The same principle applies to sense door realities when experienced by the succeeding mind door process. Thanks for your excellent quotes from the recordings. I know you'll really find the new set we'll soon be uploading full of great detail and reminders too. Metta, Sarah ========= #69379 From: han tun Date: Fri Mar 9, 2007 4:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Daana Corner (14) hantun1 Dear Herman, I appreciate your concern. But I am not giving any stamp of approval or otherwise of what is the document. I am only posting in installments the document of essays compiled and edited by Venerable Bhikkhu Bodhi. Respectfully, Han #69380 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Fri Mar 9, 2007 4:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Daana Corner (14) egberdina Hi Han, On 09/03/07, han tun wrote: > Dear Herman, > > I appreciate your concern. But I am not giving any > stamp of approval or otherwise of what is the > document. I am only posting in installments the > document of essays compiled and edited by Venerable > Bhikkhu Bodhi. > Thank you. Do you know the Nuremberg defense? It basically says "I was only following orders". Or in this case it would be "I only quoted B. Bodhi". If you are in agreement with B. Bodhi, then quote him. If you have not considered what he has written, or do not agree with him, do not quote him. It is not B. Bodhi writing now, it is you. And you have written: "Their children must also have been experiencing the results of their own past deeds when they had to leave their parents." I translate this as follows. In the mind of a right-minded Buddhist, when a mad man gives away his children, it is the fault of his children. For the sake of the children, I hope you do not have any. Herman #69381 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Mar 9, 2007 4:54 am Subject: [dsg] Q. Re: Rupas. Introduction, 1.vipassana ~naa.na. scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, I appreciate the clarifications: Sarah: "There is the experience of a paramatha dhamma by way of na-vatabba and there is the experience of a concept by way of navatabba. Better not to think of navatabba at all than to think of it as some intermediate object between the two...rupa, reality, by way of navatabba...It is the characteristic of the rupa, but it is also said to be the present rupa, because it's the reality...I wouldn't describe it as a 'transitional phenomenon'. It's either a reality or concept, but by way of navatabba..." Scott: Yes, right. The na-vatabba object is an object proper - not a quasi-object, nor some object that is some sort of hybrid thing to be thought of as in being in the midst of transformation or something. It is a type object, if this might be said, that is taken and by which the characteristic of a past object, either paramattha dhamma or concept, is known - no more, no less. Is this closer to the mark? I guess I was casting around in my mind and thought of what seemed to be an analogous line of reasoning from Non-Dhamma, and considered the concept discussed by Winnicott (one of the British object relationists) and known as a 'transitional object'. I'm clear that a worldly conceptualisation has no real bearing on Dhamma, but I'll lay it out so you can see where thinking lead. I do not mean to suggest that this is a substitute for Dhamma. Rather these are concepts describing the way beings deepen their enmeshment in the round. Nevertheless, in this case, Winnicott describes a way whereby a child differeniates a concept of 'my self' out of the previously undifferentiated 'self-by-inclusion' sort of concept wherein mother-and-child together constitute 'self' for a given child. As development moves ahead, literal objects come to be taken and used by the child as the concepts of 'me' and 'not-me' are consolidated. These objects - again concepts - are things like a blanket or a teddy bear. They are 'transitional' in the sense that they are concrete representations of 'mother' (while not being mother) and yet can be held by a child and allow for the experience of the same emotional functions once performed by the literal mother - soothing for example. They are the forerunners and lead to a time when, all things being equal, a child 'internalises' the psychological functions once performed by a mother and finds them operative within him or her self. And so this is how I imagined the na-vatabba object in terms of its use. I imagined that it is the characteristic of, say, visible object but one just fallen away, and, while having its own reality - that being the characteristic of visible object - it is not that particular visible object. The na-vatabba object, again I imagine, is taken as object and, while being a reality, is a representative of the object that has fallen away but is 'used' by, say sati or pa~n~na in the realisation of that particular characteristic. In this way it is not concept or thinking nor is it the 'original' object since this is long gone since it arose in the sense-door. Anyway, enough of that. Sarah: "One that can be found in the commentaries that I find helpful is in relation to paccavekhana or reviewing consciousness after the lokuttara cittas which have experienced nibbana have fallen away. The succeeding paccavekkhana cittas experience and review the path factors, nibbana, frution consciousness, the defilements eradicated and so on. None of this is by thinking but by direct realization. The path factors, nibbana and so on are paramattha dhammas experienced as such, by way of navatabba.(The same applies to the reviewing cittas immediately succeeding jhana experiences and so on.)...The same principle applies to sense door realities when experienced by the succeeding mind door process." Scott: So these things - path factors, nibbaana - when objects of review, if this can be said, are na-vatabba objects. The path, for example, only arises once. This is then object of review ever after. This is not thinking about path factors. The na-vatabba object is the particular characteristic of the object fallen-away. What role, if any, does sa~n~na play in this? Thanks, Sarah. Sincerely, Scott. #69382 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Mar 9, 2007 5:27 am Subject: Q. Re: Rupas. Introduction, 1.vipassana ~naa.na. scottduncan2 Dear Nina, Thanks for your reply. I'll look forward to your return and further discussion. N: "I remembered from the Thai sessions that the person who attained enlightenment and reviews Nibbaana (paccavekkhana ~naa.na) has as object navattabbaarama.na. We cannot say that this is a concept, it is not classifiable. But I cannot explain more about this. I'll wait ... When the difference between the moment with sati and without sati is known (and this is the beginning) there is more understanding of what is a concept (a whole we are thinking of, such as a person, a table) and what a reality ... Even after realizing the arising and falling away there is also the experience of nimitta, as I mentioned before ... Kh. Sujin: "Not concept. Because when we talk about shadow its not any word." ... When we speak about the image and the details of what is perceived, concept as shadow of realities (as in the Abh. Sangaha) is used in a different way. She mentioned that there are different levels of nimitta. As we read in the suttas we are infatutuated by the outward appearance of things, the image and the details. But as Kh Sujin uses the word nimitta of rupa, of feeling, etc. it is used in a different way. It pertains to nama and rupa that arise and fall away ... Even for those who have not attained enlightenment this can be understood when the meaning of nimitta of conditioned dhammas is more and more known." Scott: I'm reminded again of the very good analogy from Atthasaalinii we have discussed before: "Just as the bird flying through the sky and alighting on a tree touches the branch of the tree and its shadow strikes the ground, the touching of the branch and the spreading of the shadow taking place in one moment, simultaneously, so the contact with the sensitive organ, etc., by the presented object of sense is simultaneous with its coming into the avenue of the mind-door through its ability to cause the life-continuum to vibrate...these objects present themselves naturally by virtue of having been seen, heard, smelt, tasted, and touched..." We'll discuss further, perhaps. Hoping you have a restful break. Sincerely, Scott. #69383 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Mar 9, 2007 5:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Daana Corner (14) sarahprocter... Hi Herman, C'mon!! --- Herman Hofman wrote: > Do you know the Nuremberg defense? It basically says "I was only > following orders". Or in this case it would be "I only quoted B. > Bodhi". If you are in agreement with B. Bodhi, then quote him. If you > have not considered what he has written, or do not agree with him, do > not quote him. It is not B. Bodhi writing now, it is you. ... S: have you never quoted anything here you don't agree with? I quoted the entire article of BB's 'Jhana and the Lay Disciple', but I didn't agree with all of it. We can all just discuss those aspects/discussion topics we wish, can't we? Han's already doing a great job leading the corner imho. Take issue with those of us who've encouraged him to do this, if you like. Now, you've been giving some recent good quotes or paraphrases from your Abhidhamma closet. Can we assume from now on that Herman agrees with all of them? If so, we're making progress:-) As for the Vessantara Jataka - yes, everyone has their own kamma and experiences its results. Metta, Sarah ====== #69384 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Mar 9, 2007 12:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Letters on Vipassana 9, no 7. upasaka_howard Hi, Matheesha - In a message dated 3/8/07 6:16:47 AM Eastern Standard Time, dhammachat@... writes: > Dear Nina, > > Could you kindly explain the nature of phassa please? I recently read > that it is a Nama dhamma. Yet it comprises of rupa presenting to a > sense door, the sense door and vinnana at that sense door. So is this > like a mental represenation of the 'external' world? I would appreciate > your understanding of the matter. How does that differ > from 'aarammana', or 'nimitta' or is it the same? > > regards > > Matheesha > ======================= Here are my personal thoughts on phassa - not based specifically on Abhidhamma: It is not a compound of sense door, corresponding sense-door object, and corresponding sense-door conscious, for that would actually make it non-paramatthic (!), but is, instead, "the coming together" (or co-occurring) of the three. So, I see phassa as an elementary mental operation, actually a sankhara - a fabricating operation that facilitates knowing. When there is consciousness of visible object, for example, there must be an activating of the eye-door, the averting of attention to that door, and the arising of visible object at that door all co-occurring, and the coordinating of the three would be the phassa operation. (This is just theorizing on my part, however, as I do not directly observe phassa.) With metta, Howard #69385 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Fri Mar 9, 2007 5:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Daana Corner (14) egberdina Hi Sarah, I have been held to account for saying "bullshit mind". Get a life. Herman #69386 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Mar 9, 2007 12:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (41) upasaka_howard Hi, Connie - In a message dated 3/8/07 9:31:07 AM Eastern Standard Time, connieparker@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > Howard: Amazing, is it not, that 100,000 aeons ago they had Pali names! > ;-) > > Connie: My first thought was that you were being sarcastic! On second > thought, I figure you agree that the Buddhas' truths are always the same > and Pali is the root tongue. > peace, > c. > > ====================== I'm sorry to disappoint (seriously), but you were right the first time. It was a (friendly, smiling) sarcasm on my part. As for Pali being the "root tongue", I don't buy such a thing. The Hindus make such claims for Sanskrit and the Jews for Hebrew, and I consider all such to be utter nonsense. The Buddha, BTW, in a very modern manner, taught language as being mere convention. With metta, Howard #69387 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Fri Mar 9, 2007 5:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Daana Corner (14) egberdina Hi Buddhists, On 10/03/07, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Herman, > > As for the Vessantara Jataka - yes, everyone has their own kamma and > experiences its results. > Yes, I often go trawling past the maternity wards. I've got this sixth sense for newborns that are putting out, you know, asking for it, if you know what I mean, you know , the slutty babies. #69388 From: connie Date: Fri Mar 9, 2007 6:42 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (42) nichiconn Dear Friends, Nanduttaraatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa - The commentary on the verses of Therii Nanduttaraa Aggi.m canda~ncaati-aadikaa nanduttaraaya theriyaa gaathaa. Ayampi purimabuddhesu kataadhikaaraa tattha tattha bhave viva.t.tuupanissaya.m kusala.m upacinitvaa imasmi.m buddhuppaade kurura.t.the kammaasadhammanigame braahma.nakule nibbattitvaa ekaccaani vijjaa.t.thaanaani sippaayatanaani ca uggahetvaa niga.n.thapabbajja.m upagantvaa, vaadappasutaa jambusaakha.m gahetvaa bhaddaaku.n.dalakesaa viya jambudiipatale vicarantii The verses beginning [I used to worship] fire and the moon, etc, are Theri Nanduttara's. She too performed meritorious deeds under previous Buddhas and accumulated good [actions] in various lives as [her] basis for release. In this Buddha era, whe was born in a brahman family in the town of Kammaasadhamma in the kingdom of Kuru. She learned some of the branches of study and the arts. Then she went forth as a Jain, and being intent on disputation, she took a branch of a rose-apple tree (jambu-saakha.m) and wandered over the surface of Jambudiipa [India] like Bhaddaa-Ku.n.dalakesaa. mahaamoggallaanatthera.m upasa"nkamitvaa pa~nha.m pucchitvaa paraajaya.m pattaa therassa ovaade .thatvaa saasane pabbajitvaa sama.nadhamma.m karontii na cirasseva saha pa.tisambhidaahi arahatta.m patvaa attano pa.tipatti.m paccavekkhitvaa udaanavasena- 87. "Aggi.m canda~nca suuriya~nca, devataa ca namassiha.m; nadiititthaani gantvaana, udaka.m oruhaamiha.m. 88. "Bahuuvatasamaadaanaa, a.d.dha.m siisassa olikhi.m; chamaaya seyya.m kappemi, ratti.m bhatta.m na bhu~njaha.m. 89. "Vibhuusaama.n.danarataa, nhaapanucchaadanehi ca; upakaasi.m ima.m kaaya.m, kaamaraagena a.t.titaa. 90. "Tato saddha.m labhitvaana, pabbaji.m anagaariya.m; disvaa kaaya.m yathaabhuuta.m, kaamaraago samuuhato. 91. "Sabbe bhavaa samucchinnaa, icchaa ca patthanaapi ca; sabbayogavisa.myuttaa, santi.m paapu.ni cetaso"ti.- Imaa pa~nca gaathaa abhaasi. She approached Thera Mahaa-Moggallaana, asked him a question, and obtained defeat. Abiding in the instruction of the thera, she went forth in the teaching and fulfilled the duty of a recluse. She attained Arahatship after a very short time. Looking over her attainment, she spoke these five verses as a solemn utterance: 87. I used to worship fire and the moon and the sun and divinities. I went to river-fording places and used to go down into the water. 88. Undertaking many vows, I shaved half my head. I made my bed on the ground. I did not eat any food at night. 89. Delighting in ornament and decoration, by means of bathing and anointing indeed, I ministered to this body, afflicted by desire for sensual pleasures. 90. Then obtaining faith, I went forth into the homeless state, seeing the body as it really was. I have rooted out desire for sensual pleasures. 91. I have cut out all existences - and wishes and longings, too. Unfettered from all ties, I have attained peace of mind. Tattha aggi.m canda~nca suuriya~nca, devataa ca namassihanti aggippamukhaa devaati indaana.m devaana.m aaraadhanattha.m aahuti.m paggahetvaa aggi~nca, maase maase sukkapakkhassa dutiyaaya canda~nca, divase divase saaya.m paata.m suuriya~nca, a~n~naa ca baahiraa hira~n~nagabbhaadayo devataa ca, visuddhimagga.m gavesantii namassiha.m namakkaara.m aha.m akaasi.m. Nadiititthaani gantvaana, udaka.m oruhaamihanti ga"ngaadiina.m nadiina.m puujaatitthaani upagantvaa saaya.m paata.m udaka.m otaraami udake nimujjitvaa a"ngasi~ncana.m karomi. 87. There, I used to worship fire and the moon and the sun and divinities means: I made an offering for the porpitiation of the devas of Inda, thinking, "The devas have fire as their head." And I used to worship (namassi 'ha.m), I performed veneration of (name-kkaara.m aha.m akaasi.m) fire every month on the second day of the bright fortnight of the moon, and [I worshipped] the moon every day in the evening and in the morning, and [I worshipped] the sun and the other external divinities beginning with Brahmaa, searching for the path of purity. I went to river-fording places and used to go down into the water means: I went to the fording places for paying honour of the rivers of the Ganges, etc. I descended into the water in the evening and in the morning. I descended into the water, and having plunged into the water, I performed the [ritual of the] sprinkling of the limbs. Bahuuvatasamaadaanaati pa~ncaatapatappanaadi bahuvidhavatasamaadaanaa. Gaathaasukhattha.m bahuuti diighakara.na.m. A.d.dha.m siisassa olikhinti mayha.m siisassa a.d.dhameva mu.n.demi. Keci "a.d.dha.m siisassa olikhinti kesakalaapassa a.d.dha.m ja.taabandhanavasena bandhitvaa a.d.dha.m vissajjesin"ti attha.m vadanti. Chamaaya seyya.m kappemiiti tha.n.dilasaayinii hutvaa anantarahitaaya bhuumiyaa sayaami. Ratti.m bhatta.m na bhu~njahanti rattuuparataa hutvaa rattiya.m bhojana.m na bhu~nji.m. 88. Undertaking many vows (bahuu-vata-samaadaanaa) means: taking up many sorts of vows such as the vows of torment, etc., of the five sorts of heat (pa~ncaatapa-tappanaadi-bahu-vidha-vata-samaadaanaa). There is a lengthening of bahu (many) metri causa. I shaved (olikhi.m) half (a.d.dha.m) my head means: I shaved (mu.n.demi) only half (a.d.dha.m eva) my head. Some people say I shaved half my head means: I bound half of the bundle of my hair by tying it in a braid, and I got rid of half. I made (kappemi) my bed (seyya.m) on the ground (chamaaya) means: becoming one who lies on the bare ground (tha.n.dila-saayinii), I lay down (sayaami) on the ground (bhuumiyaa) with no covering on it (anantarahitaaya). I did not eat (na bhu~nj' aha.m) food (bhatta) at night (ratti.m) means: I was abstaining at night (rattuuparataa hutvaa). I did not eat (na bhu~nji.m) a meal (bhojana.m) at night (rattiya.m). Vibhuusaama.n.danarataati cirakaala.m attakilamathaanuyogena kilantakaayaa "eva.m sariirassa kilamanena natthi pa~n~naasuddhi. Sace pana indriyaana.m tosanavasena sariirassa tappanena suddhi siyaa"ti mantvaa ima.m kaaya.m anugga.nhantii vibhuusaaya.m ma.n.dane ca rataa vatthaala"nkaarehi ala"nkara.ne gandhamaalaadiihi ma.n.dane ca abhirataa. Nhaapanucchaadanehi caati sambaahanaadiini kaaretvaa nhaapanena ucchaadanena ca. Upakaasi.m ima.m kaayanti ima.m mama kaaya.m anugga.nhi.m santappesi.m. Kaamaraagena a.t.titaati eva.m kaayada.lhiibahulaa hutvaa ayonisomanasikaarapaccayaa pariyu.t.thitena kaamaraagena a.t.titaa abhi.nha.m upaddutaa ahosi.m. 89. Delighting in ornament and decoration (vibhuusaa-ma.n.dana-rataa) means: for a long time I was physically tired through the practice of exhausting myself. I thought it over: "There was no purity of wisdom through gratification of the body by satisfying the senses." I took care of this body, delighting in (rataa) ornament and decoration (vibhuusaaya.m ma.n.dane ca), finding satisfaction in (ala"nkara.ne) the decoration of my clothing (vatthaala"nkaarehi), greatly rejoicing in (abhirataa) flowers and perfume, etc, and decoration. By means of bathing and anointing indeed (nhaapanucchaadanehi ca) means: having massages, etc (sambaahanaadiini kaaretvaa), and by means of bathing (nhaapanena) and anointing (ucchaadanena). I ministered to this body means: I took care of this body of mine. I satisfied it. Afflicted by desire for sensual pleasure means: though I became strong in body, I was afflicted by desire for sensual pleasure, I was constantly assailed through being obsessed and through unwise attention. Tato saddha.m labhitvaanaati eva.m samaadinnavataani bhinditvaa kaayada.lhiibahulaa vaadappasutaa hutvaa tattha tattha vicarantii tato pacchaa aparabhaage mahaamoggallaanattherassa santike laddhovaadaanusaasanaa saddha.m pa.tilabhitvaa. Disvaa kaaya.m yathaabhuutanti saha vipassanaaya maggapa~n~naaya ima.m mama kaaya.m yathaabhuuta.m disvaa anaagaamimaggena sabbaso kaamaraago samuuhato. Tato para.m aggamaggena sabbe bhavaa samucchinnaa, icchaa ca patthanaapi caati paccuppannavisayaabhilaasasa"nkhaataa icchaa ca aayatibhavaabhilaasasa"nkhaataa patthanaapi sabbe bhavaapi samucchinnaati yojanaa Santi.m paapu.ni cetasoti accanta.m santi.m arahattaphala.m paapu.ni.m adhigacchinti attho. Nanduttaraatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa ni.t.thitaa. 90. Then obtaining faith (saddha.m labhitvaanaa) means: breaking the vows undertaken in that way, being strong in body and being intent on disputation, I wandered here and there. Then, later, afterwards, I obtained faith (saddha.m pa.tilabhitvaa), havng received instruction and admonition from Thera Mahaa-Moggallaana. Seeing the body as it really was means: having seen this body of mine as it really was through the wisdom of the [first two] paths by means of insight, all desire for sensual pleasures was rooted out by the Non-Returner path. 91. After that, through the highest path, I have cut off all existences - and wishes and longings too, which means: I have cut off all existences indeed - and wishes, which are called the desire of sensual objects that are present, and longings, which are called the desire for future existence. This is what is to be understood. I have attained (paapu.ni) peace of mind means: I have attained (paapu.ni.m), I have acquired (adhigacchi.m) the absolute peace of the fruition state of Arahatship. Here ends the commentary on the verses of Therii Nanduttaraa. === peace, connie #69389 From: connie Date: Fri Mar 9, 2007 7:32 am Subject: Re: Starting of a World System nichiconn Dear Herman, I have, in this lifetime, considered that it might be good to work hard at figuring out what it was the trawlers saw and possibly change my spots; to figure out what I might have that really was worth giving. Shall we move on to deeper waters? peace, connie What would you think would be worth working hard at, Connie ? #69390 From: "colette" Date: Fri Mar 9, 2007 10:03 am Subject: Re: Starting of a World System ksheri3 Good Morning Connie, This is food for thought. I have my own pet-pieves about the trawling industry but that's another story. You give mystical thought, and I like the fragrance I smell and am attracted to, huh. ;-) toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connie wrote: > > Dear Herman, > I have, in this lifetime, considered that it might be good to work hard at > figuring out what it was the trawlers saw and possibly change my spots; to > figure out what I might have that really was worth giving. Shall we move > on to deeper waters? > peace, > connie > > What would you think would be worth working hard at, Connie ? > #69391 From: "colette" Date: Fri Mar 9, 2007 8:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kusala and akusala ksheri3 Good Morning Herman, That's refreshing to wake up and read this, your, reply. Oh, I certainly ENJOYED the walk to the library on this beautiful sunny, warm, day. The seasons change as I know the conditions in my living situation are changing but is it FROM/BECAUSE OF the mental illness that Mother Nature possesses and is afflicted by. I mean she does this every year at the exact same time and in the exact same manor. So how can we say that the change of seasons, the CONDITIONS, is the CAUSE for the harrassments, degradations, etc. that we go through? Dut I digress, so lets get back to your splendid reply. in an objective sense, involved > in that process at all. colette: if I may be permitted to stray here: what the heck is all this concern with OBJECTIVITY, SUBJECT-OBJECT, schtick? That's what's really screwed me around a lot since starting with scholars on this web thing performing magik the way I do. They are never satisfied that they possess this crazy thing called life, they are never satisfied that things do happen, they are certainly never satisfied that Mother Nature is afflicted with mental disease and that they cannot sublimate it, control it, through the exploitation of the DRUG CARTELS such as Smith Kline, or Pfizer, or Lily, or... but they are drug cartels, performing exactly as children perform dealing drugs. It is an interesting thought how those so consumed by the ego-mania of CONTROL, seen Maxwell Smart lately or is he still under the Cone of Silence, or is that KOAN, but these people are so consumed by control and being the one in control that they lose their humanity and human qualities. thanx for the nice, pleasant, answer to Jonothan & my conversation! toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > > Hi Jon and Colette, > > On 05/03/07, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Hi Colette > > > > > > If kusala/akusala are concepts of illusory situations we find ourselves > > in, it would not be possible to know whether one's own presently arising > > consciousness is kusala or aksuala. > > > > Yes, exactly right. Paraphrasing someone who'se name I do not remember > "A/kusala consciousness is consciousness that is so labelled by > consciousness". There is no knowing, in an objective sense, involved > in that process at all. It amounts to no more than a ruler measuring > itself. > > Kind Regards > > > Herman > #69392 From: "matheesha" Date: Fri Mar 9, 2007 4:33 pm Subject: Re: Letters on Vipassana 9, no 7. matheesha333 Hi Howard, Thanks for allowing me to clarify my own thinking and experience on the matter. I agree with what you say. I think most if not all our reality is based on moments of phassa - a mental construct. with metta Matheesha --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Matheesha - > > In a message dated 3/8/07 6:16:47 AM Eastern Standard Time, > dhammachat@... writes: > > > Dear Nina, > > > > Could you kindly explain the nature of phassa please? I recently read > > that it is a Nama dhamma. Yet it comprises of rupa presenting to a > > sense door, the sense door and vinnana at that sense door. So is this > > like a mental represenation of the 'external' world? I would appreciate > > your understanding of the matter. How does that differ > > from 'aarammana', or 'nimitta' or is it the same? > > > > regards > > > > Matheesha > > > ======================= > Here are my personal thoughts on phassa - not based specifically on > Abhidhamma: > It is not a compound of sense door, corresponding sense-door object, > and corresponding sense-door conscious, for that would actually make it > non-paramatthic (!), but is, instead, "the coming together" (or co- occurring) of the > three. > So, I see phassa as an elementary mental operation, actually a > sankhara - a fabricating operation that facilitates knowing. When there is > consciousness of visible object, for example, there must be an activating of the > eye-door, the averting of attention to that door, and the arising of visible object > at that door all co-occurring, and the coordinating of the three would be the > phassa operation. (This is just theorizing on my part, however, as I do not > directly observe phassa.) > > With metta, > Howard > #69393 From: "matheesha" Date: Fri Mar 9, 2007 4:44 pm Subject: Re: The psychological self matheesha333 Hi Herman, Understanding that there is no self, no being, no agent has little to do with not reacting in a wise manner to internal and external stimuli. Mentally ill patients may not be able to differentiate whether a thought (for example) arises from their own minds or the mind of a strange external force - this is very different from the normal workings of a mind which can. She just knows that there is no self doing all the thinking (the thinking arising in her own mind). with metta Matheesha #69394 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Mar 9, 2007 5:44 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Daana Corner (14) buddhatrue Hi Herman, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > > Dear Han, > > On 09/03/07, han tun wrote: > > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > > > As a courtesy, I am telling you that if you intend to post anything > that gives a stamp of approval to the trading of children in a > spiritual quest, I will hold make you accountable for those > statements. Just chill, man. The Bible has a story about how God asked a man (I forget his name now) to kill his only son to show his faithfulness to God. And as the man was about to kill his only son, God intervened and told him that he had proved his allegiance and should let his son go. This is just a story; a myth. Buddhism is no different; it also has its own myths. Han reporting a myth to this group (even if he thinks it might have happened) doesn't make him accountable for anything. Buddhists wouldn't give away their children to practice dana. It is just a myth to illustrate a point. Metta, James #69395 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Mar 9, 2007 5:51 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Daana Corner (14) buddhatrue Hi Herman, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > > Hi Buddhists, > > On 10/03/07, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Herman, > > > > As for the Vessantara Jataka - yes, everyone has their own kamma and > > experiences its results. > > > > Yes, I often go trawling past the maternity wards. I've got this sixth > sense for newborns that are putting out, you know, asking for it, if > you know what I mean, you know , the slutty babies. This reaction is quite strange. Have you considered that perhaps you have unresolved issues from childhood abuse? Metta, James #69396 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Fri Mar 9, 2007 7:01 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Daana Corner (14) egberdina Hi Han, On 09/03/07, han tun wrote: > Dear Herman, > > I appreciate your concern. But I am not giving any > stamp of approval or otherwise of what is the > document. I am only posting in installments the > document of essays compiled and edited by Venerable > Bhikkhu Bodhi. Please feel free to continue your series without fear of more upheaval. I assure you that I have no further need to register my misgivings about the matters we have been writing about. They remain fundamentally offensive to me, but I understand and accept that these are tenets fundamental to Theravadin Buddhism, and that this is a site for the discussion of Therevadin doctrines. Kind Regards Herman #69397 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Fri Mar 9, 2007 7:06 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Daana Corner (14) egberdina Hi James, On 10/03/07, buddhatrue wrote: > Hi Herman, > > This reaction is quite strange. Have you considered that perhaps you > have unresolved issues from childhood abuse? > Thanks, James. The thought has crossed my mind. Cold comfort to be told by kamma experts that I had it coming to me :-) Cheers. Herman #69398 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Fri Mar 9, 2007 8:33 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Daana Corner (14) christine_fo... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > > Dear Han, > > On 09/03/07, han tun wrote: > > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > > > As a courtesy, I am telling you that if you intend to post anything > that gives a stamp of approval to the trading of children in a > spiritual quest, I will hold make you accountable for those > statements. > > Kind Regards > > > Herman > Hello Herman, This brings a smile to my face. Not because you are being a little rude to Han Tun (and you know that you are my friend), but because I recognise your mental states ~ having experienced the same when I was first horrified by the Vesantara Jataka. I even read the whole thing p. 246 to p.305 (59 pages!) in "The Jaataka or Stories of the Buddha's Former Births" translated by E.W. Cowell and W.H.D. Rouse (Prof Cowell was formerly Prof. of Sanskrit in the Univ. of Cambridge) - in the hope that my initial repugnance might be attenuated by something else in the tale. Not so. The Tale in full is, if anything, more appalling than the excerpt one can read. As I said at the time of one of the first Vesantara Controversies on DSG, I am thankful I live in an age when the whole crew would have wound up before the Children's Court and received the consequences they deserved for child abuse and failing to provide protection to defenceless minors. That other beings could be regarded by the Buddha-to-be as objects to be used and disposed of in order to gain his own spiritual advancement is unbelievable. I see nothing in this story that could even quality it to be regarded as a Morality Tale. I think quoting such stories as if they are authoritative teachings is unwise. Thankfully Jim Anderson did the research to show the Tales are NOT part of the Tipitaka. One is told that the disappearance of the Vesantara Jataka is one of the predicted signs of the Disappearance of the Sasana. I am sure there are those who will be concerned by this. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/14958 It was also such a relief to me to read Maurice Walshe's remarks (trans. of the Dighan Nikaya) in this excerpt from "Giving from the Heart": "In point of fact, one of the true benefits to the giver is precisely that the act of spontaneous giving is a very fine way of helping to overcome attachment. And that is the intended point of the Vesantara story. We Westerners think of the unfortunate wife and family the Bodhisatta "sacrificed" (though of course there was happy ending and they came back to him, in the story!), but the intention is to regard them as objects of attachment, to be given up as such. As a matter of fact, despite the popularity of this particular story, modern scholars consider that it was not originally a Buddhist tale at all, and was somewhat unskillfully adapted to provide a "Buddhist" moral." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel367.html#heart metta and karuna, Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- #69399 From: han tun Date: Fri Mar 9, 2007 9:06 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Daana Corner (14) hantun1 Dear Herman, Thank you very much for your kind understanding. Respectfully, Han --- Herman Hofman wrote: > Hi Han, > > Please feel free to continue your series without > fear of more > upheaval. I assure you that I have no further need > to register my > misgivings about the matters we have been writing > about. They remain > fundamentally offensive to me, but I understand and > accept that these > are tenets fundamental to Theravadin Buddhism, and > that this is a site > for the discussion of Therevadin doctrines. > > Kind Regards > > > Herman >