#70000 From: han tun Date: Mon Mar 26, 2007 10:48 pm Subject: Daana Corner (27) hantun1 Dear Dhamma Friends, This is taken from “Giving in the Pali Canon” by Lily de Silva. Lily de Silva wrote the essay in the following sub-headings: *Functions of Giving* *Qualities of the Donor* *The Donations* *The Donee* *The Motivation of Giving* *The Manner of Giving* *The Value of Giving* The following is “The Value of Giving” (3 of 5 parts) Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ------------------------------ The Buddha once explained that it is a meritorious act even to throw away the water after washing one's plate with the generous thought: "May the particles of food in the washing water be food to the creatures on the ground." When that is so, how much more meritorious it is to feed a human being! But the sutta hastens to add that it is more meritorious to feed a virtuous person (A.i,161). Another sutta (A.iii,336) maintains that it is not possible to estimate the amount of merit that accrues when an offering is endowed with six particular characteristics. Three of the characteristics belong to the donor while three belong to the donee. The donor should be happy at the thought of giving prior to making the offering. He should be pleased at the time of making the offering, and he should be satisfied after the offering is made. Thus the nobility of thought — without a trace of greed before, during and after the offering — makes a gift truly great. The recipients also should be free from lust, hatred and delusion, or they should have embarked on a course of training for the elimination of these mental depravities. When an almsgiving is endowed with these qualities of the donor and donee, the merit is said to be as immeasurable as the waters in the ocean. Once Visakha gave a learned explanation of the benefits she expected from her munificence when the Buddha questioned her as to what she saw as the advantages of her great generosity (Vin.i,293-94). She said that when she hears that a particular monk or nun has attained any of the fruits of recluseship, and if that monk or nun has visited Savatthi, she would be certain that he or she has partaken of the offerings she constantly makes. When she reflects that she has contributed in some measure to his or her spiritual distinction, great delight (pamujja) arises in her. Joy (piti) arises in the mind that is delighted. When the mind is joyful the body relaxes (kayo passambhissati). When the body relaxes a sense of ease (sukha) is experienced which helps the mind to be concentrated (cittam samadhiyissati). That will help the development of the spiritual faculties (indriyabhavana), spiritual powers (balahbavana), and factors of enlightenment (bojjhangabhavana). These are the advantages she hopes for by her munificence. The Buddha was so pleased with her erudite reply that he exclaimed, "Sadhu sadhu sadhu" in approbation. It is evident that giving alone is not sufficient for one to make an end of suffering. Anathapindika, who was pronounced by the Buddha as the foremost among almsgivers, became only a stream-enterer. It is specifically said that dana has to be fortified by sila, morality, if it is to produce good results. Though Anathapindika practiced unblemished virtue, it is nowhere stated that he practiced mental culture or meditation (bhavana). Therefore, in spite of all his magnanimous munificence, he had to remain a stream-enterer. “The Value of Giving” to be continued. with metta, Han #70001 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Mar 26, 2007 10:56 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: indifferent feelings sarahprocter... Hi Gerard, Firstly, welcome to DSG! Thx for coming in with a good question to Nina. Let me try to simplify this point a little: --- gerardblok wrote: > Hallo Nina, > > You write: 'Here the words desirable and undesirable are not > meant as a subjective judgement, they merely indicate their nature of > being the object of kusala vipaaka or akusala vipaaka.' ..... S: In other words, when the result of kusala kamma arises, it experiences an inherently desirable/pleasant object and when the result of akusala kamma arises, it experiences an inherently undesirable/unpleasant object. As a general rule, attachment clings to pleasant objects, but really, we have no idea most the time whether it is a pleasant or unpleasant object being experienced. For example, now seeing consciousness (vipaka) experiences visible object. Who can say whether it's a pleasant or unpleasant object? We can make generalisations in very conventional language only, such as saying that usually sunsets and diamonds are pleasant sights and filty and black clouds are unpleasant sights. In any case, for the development of the path, it doesn't matter at all. ..... > Isn't this a case of "begging the question"? You describe vipaakacitta > in terms of the object, desirable and undesirable, and the object in > terms of kusala vipaaka or akusala vipaaka. .... S: Not quite. Vipaka citta is not described 'in terms of the object', but the two are related. A kusala vipaka citta can only experience a desirable object and this object is in fact a condition for the vipaka citta to arise. The same for the akusala vipaka citta. Also, this doesn't mean the object is described 'in terms of kusala vipaaka or akusala vipaaka'. Again it means there is a connection. Without the arising of those vipaka cittas, the desirable and undesirable objects would never be experienced. Let me know if this is still not clear. Also, take a look at 'Useful Posts' in the files section if you have time, scrolling down to: "Rupa9- intrinsic/specific qualities - desirable/undesirable" (Howard, you may also like to look at the section under Rupa - 'derived rupas') Gerard, you seem to have a background in Abhidhamma, is that right? Where have you been studying and where do you live? Welcome again. I'm going away on a trip very soon, so if I don't get back to any posts, I'll look forward to talking to you on return. Metta, Sarah ======== #70002 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Mar 27, 2007 1:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Leading to stream entry sarahprocter... Dear Ven Dhammanando,(Han* & all), --- Dhammanando Bhikkhu wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > This is a late reply to message #60469 (Thu Jun 15, 2006) in which you > discussed the phrase sotaapattiphalasacchakiriyaaya pa.tipanno > ('practising for the realization of the fruition of stream-attainer') > as it occurs in the Dakkhi.naavibhanga Sutta. After quoting from > Bhikkhu Bodhi's notes on this phrase, you wrote: > > > S: It would be useful to see more detail from these commentary notes > > in due course! .... S: Thank you very much indeed for sharing your detailed answer. Yes, it provides exactly the detail which is useful and relevant to this point. > > Dh: >> > It should be noted that the 8 types in this Sutta do not perfectly > > overlap with the "4 pairs of persons, 8 kinds of individuals" that > > constitute the Noble Sangha, for the 4 pairs here are not attainer of > > the path vs. attainer of the fruit, but rather, one who has entered > > upon the way to realisation of the fruit vs. one has realised the > > fruit. In the commentarial exposition, disciples in whom sotaapatti > > magga has arisen are just one sub-class of persons who have entered > > upon the way to realisation of sotaapatti phala. .... S: Thank you. Yes, this is the important point. I briefly referred to a comment of Lily de Silva's suggesting the same and also sth in the Puggala Pannatti, but the notes you give from the sutta commentary are far more detailed and clearer. ... > And in another later post I added the qualification that though the > above is the case with the Dakkhi.naavibhanga Sutta, there are other > suttas in which person 1 in List A refers *only* to the maggasamangii / > attainer of the path of stream-entry, and so in these suttas the list > consists entirely of ariyans. ... S: Yes, such as the one in AN often quoted about the offerings to the 8 ariyans. We need to be careful to look at the context of each. It's very kind of you to remember my question on this and to share the detail. Also, thank you for your further comments on 'pubbakicca' #69880. Also, very interesting. Is there an introductory section to the Theragaathaa commentary which includes the kind of detail you referred to? [*Referring above to Lily de Silva's comments, reminds me of Han's Daana Corner (26) #69905. At the end of the quote from Lily de Silva's article, she suggests a contradiction in the suttas. "It is evident here that a later interpolation cannot be altogether ruled out." I don't think this can be correct (i.e 'a later interpolation'), but would be interested to hear any comments you (or Han or others) may have on this.] With respect, Sarah ======= #70003 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Mar 27, 2007 1:47 am Subject: Htoo sarahprocter... To all Htoo fans: I just received this note from him - let's hope he can 'soon involve' as he mentions: ...... >Dear Sarah, How are you and DSG? Just send the message from me to the DSG that I am fine and doing well in Dhamma. I hope I can soon involve in the discussions. Htoo ....... #70004 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Mar 27, 2007 1:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. : Letters on Vipassana 11, no 2. nilovg Hi James and Howard, thanks for the sutta. Straightening one's views, what is that? First one had wrong view, a wrong interpretation of reality, but after listening one can get cured from wrong view. Is that not pa~n~naa? As to, 'One's mind grows serene', the Pali has: cittamassa pasÄ«dati. To become bright, purified. The Pali pasaada is clearness and confidence. The Thai translation has: he has confidence. When one listens and one gains understanding one has more confidence in the teachings. > One hears what one has not heard before. I do not know your and > Howard's story, how you first came into contact with the dhamma. > Did it not begin with hearing or reading what you had not heard > before? Right listening will result in the development of understanding, of vipassana and eventually this will lead to nibbaana. I will not stop this one-tune melody that hurts Howard's ears. I feel it is right. People do not always like what they hear. I was not going to answer Howard's post at first, because I find the language used re Kh Sujin and also your language, James, aggressive and insulting. One can say that one does not agree, but there are also polite ways in saying this. I have no more time for you both if you go on like this. Here is the Pali for those who like Pali: “Pañcime bhikkhave, Ä?nisaṃsÄ? dhammassavane. Katame pañca? Assutaṃ suṇÄ?ti sutaṃ pariyodÄ?peti, kaá¹…khaṃ vitarati [vihanati (syÄ?. kaṃ. pÄ«. ka.)], diá¹¹¹ƒ ujuṃ karoti, cittamassa pasÄ«dati. Ime kho, bhikkhave, pañca Ä?nisaṃsÄ? dhammassavaneâ€?ti. Dutiyaṃ. Nina. Op 27-mrt-2007, om 4:19 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > "There are these five rewards in listening to the Dhamma. Which five? > > "One hears what one has not heard before. One clarifies what one has > heard before. One gets rid of doubt. One's views are made straight. > One's mind grows serene. > > "These are the five rewards in listening to the Dhamma." > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an05/an05.202.than.html > > So, listening to the Dhamma will, at the most, result in samatha. It > won't result in vipassana (insight), panna (wisdom), or nibbana > (release). The benefits of listening to the Dhamma, in and of itself, > if that is all one does, are superficial and not lasting. #70005 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Mar 27, 2007 1:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Htoo nilovg Hi Sarah, Just today I was thinking of Htoo. I tried to figure out a simile of the four great elements and the derived rupas and thought: Htoo would say: four generals and the soldiers. Nina Op 27-mrt-2007, om 10:49 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > I just received this note from him - let's hope he can 'soon > involve' as > he mentions: #70006 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Mar 27, 2007 2:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ahosi kamma sarahprocter... Hi Connie (& Mike), Well, you can't escape your jury duty here, even though you may have a convenient loop-hole elsewhere:-). Many thanks for the transcript - yes, we need all the evidence, I think. it was a mystery to me at the time and KS was very adamant (as you heard) in response to my comment. As I didn't have texts and had a burning fever, I didn't pursue it further, but will do so when we next visit her perhaps. --- connie wrote: > here's the section from 2005-10-12a-Benares1.mp3: > > ??: I am still very confused about kamma; because the old saying always > > said 'your old kamma' and can you make new, good new kamma to balance > the > old kamma so it becomes zero? > > TA: When is the old kamma? .... S: (Btw, ?? is Foo, a Thai American friend). I have an idea, now reading the transcript, that the idea Foo expresses above ('the Thai understanding...(?))which has probably been brought up before is what KS is really focussing on in the discussion. She's just stressing that old kamma is gone (even that of a moment ago) and can never be 'balanced' by new kamma. Anyway, I'm glad you and Mike have raised it and will keep the transcript as evidence to present when appropriate. Mike & Connie, let me know if you come across anything else that sounds strange, because it's good to sort them out. Often it's an angle or something we'd never have thought of. Of course, there can be misunderstandings too. It may be a minor point, but better to clarify. Metta, Sarah p.s I do think there were two Jotipala bodhisattas, so there is a little confusion there. ========= #70007 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Mar 27, 2007 2:54 am Subject: Re: Q. : Letters on Vipassana 11, no 2. buddhatrue Hi Nina, Nina: I was not going to answer Howard's post at first, because I find the language used re Kh Sujin and also your language, James, aggressive and insulting. One can say that one does not agree, but there are also polite ways in saying this. I have no more time for you both if you go on like this. James: Huh? I take great exception to this accusation. I have been neither aggressive nor insulting in my posts to you. I simply presented suttas which contradicted what you posted. Since when is presenting contradictory evidence aggressive and insulting? I didn't call KS a cult leader! I didn't call you one of her brain- washed minions! I have been very polite!! ;-)) Anyway, I don't really have anything more to say about this subject. The suttas speak for themselves. I am not out to "win points", just get to the truth. And, also Nina, you have been posting too much anyway and you should take it easy. Nina, don't freak out over this stuff- everyone receives praise and blame; even the Buddha himself received praise and blame. You should be oblivious to either praise or blame. Metta, James #70008 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Mar 27, 2007 3:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Daana Corner (25) sarahprocter... Hi Howard, Han, James & all, --- upasaka@... wrote: > > >Han: The bhaavanaa may > > >be translated as meditation both tranquility and > > >insight. So the translation of 'meditation' is not > > >totally wrong, but it does not cover the entire > > >bhaavanaa-maya-pu~n~na kiriya vatthu. > > ... > > S: I agree. I think the problem is that 'meditation' has a lot of its > own connotations these days and can be misleading. Of course, the same > applies to many terms. > =========================== >Howard: >......what English would > *you* use for 'samatha bhavana' and 'vipassana bhavana' that you prefer > to 'meditation'? .... S: I think in genreal, the common translation: 'the development of calm (samatha) and insight (vipassana)' is best kept to. In the context of this discussion, it is bhaavanaa-maya-pu~n~na-kiriya-vatthu that is being referred to. This is the 3rd base of meritorious deeds in the 3-fold classification (in the suttas) or in the 10-fold classification in the commentaries. In the Atthasalini (translated as 'The Expositor', PTS) in ch V111, 'Remaining Types of Consciousness', it lists the 10 bases of meritorious deeds and then elaborates on them. When it comes to this 3rd base, bhaavanaa-maya-pu~n~na- kiriya-vatthu, it says: "(3) In one who cultivates (bhaavanaa) himself, regarding both the eye as impermanent, ill and selfless (aniccato dukkhato anattato), and the other senses and the mind, also visible and other sense-objects, objects of thought, sense-cognition with mental cognition, perception of sense-objects, old age and death all in the same way as is taught in analytical knowledge (pa.tisambhidaa) by the path of insight (vipassanaamaggena), all his volitions that have not attained ecstasy(appanam) in the thirty-eight objects of consciousness (viz, 40 kamma.t.thaanas minus aaloka and aakaasa) constitute the basis of meritorious action in culture.(pu~n~nakiriyavatthu naama)" .... S: In this context of the bases of meritorious deeds, it seems to be particularly 'the path of insight' that is intended. I agree with James that the dictionary meaning of meditation is more along the lines of 'reflection' and 'contemplation'. If this is what you mean by 'meditation', it's not too bad, but of course, the development of insight, the understanding of namas and rupas, is much more than mere wise contemplation. The text continues to elaborate on the meaning of the other bases (pu~n~na kiriya vatthu). It then says: "In the Suttas there are only three bases of meritorious action - charity, virtue and culture. The other bases should be understood as included in these three. Respect and dutifulness are thus included in that which consists of virtue. Sharing of merit and thanksgiving are included in that which consists of charity; teaching, hearing the Law and rectification of opinion in that which consists of culture (bhaavanaa). Rectification of opinion, in the doctrine of those teachers who say that it has the characteristic of assurance in all the bases, is comprehended in the three bases of charity, virtue and culture. [S: exactly as Han explained before.] Thus these bases of meritorious act from three in abstract and are ten when expanded." Metta, Sarah James, for more detail on the precise meaning of bhavana, pls take a look at this message I wrote (and others saved under 'bhavana' in U.P.): http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/52659 ============ #70009 From: connie Date: Tue Mar 27, 2007 4:57 am Subject: Re: Daana Corner & Vessantara panha nichiconn Dear Friends, Continuing with the dilemna of VESSANTARA'S EARTHQUAKE. www.sacred-texts.com/bud/sbe35/sbe3512.htm T. W. Rhys Davids 36. 'The Blessed One made the statement you refer to, O king, and yet the earth shook seven times at Vessantara's largesse. But that was out of season, it was an isolated occurrence, it was not included in the eight usual causes, and was not therefore reckoned as one of them. just, O king, as there are three kinds of well-known rains reckoned in the world-that of the rainy season, that of the winter months, and that of the two months asalha and Savana. If, besides these, any other rain falls, that is not reckoned among the usual rains, but is called "a rain out of season." And again, O king, just as there are five hundred rivers which flow down from the Himalayas, but of these ten only are reckoned in enumerations of rivers--the Ganges, the Jumna, the Akiravati, the Sarabhu, the Mahi, the Indus, the Sarasvati, the Vetravati, the Vitamsa, and the Kandabhaga--the others not being included in the catalogue because of their intermittent flow of water. And again, O king, just as there are a hundred or two of officers under the king, but only six of them are reckoned as officers of state--the commander-in-chief, the prime minister, and the chief judge, and the high treasurer, and the bearer of the sunshade of state, and the state sword-bearer. And why? Because of their royal prerogatives. The rest are not reckoned, they are all called simply officers. [115] Just as in all these cases, great king, the seven times repeated earthquake at the largesse of Vessantara was, as an isolated and extra ordinary occurrence, and distinct from the eight usual ones, not reckoned among those eight causes.' ================ to be continued... connie #70010 From: connie Date: Tue Mar 27, 2007 4:56 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (47) nichiconn Dear Sisters Enthusiasts, part five of eleven on Pa.taacaaraa: Eva.m satthari anamataggapariyaayakatha.m (sa.m. ni. 2.125-126) kathente tassaa soko tanutarabhaava.m agamaasi. Atha na.m tanubhuutasoka.m ~natvaa "pa.taacaare, puttaadayo naama paraloka.m gacchantassa taa.na.m vaa le.na.m vaa sara.na.m vaa bhavitu.m na sakkontii"ti vijjamaanaapi te na santi eva, tasmaa pa.n.ditena attano siila.m visodhetvaa nibbaanagaamimaggoyeva saadhetabboti dassento- "Na santi puttaa taa.naaya, na pitaa naapi bandhavaa; antakenaadhipannassa, natthi ~naatiisu taa.nataa. "Etamatthavasa.m ~natvaa, pa.n.dito siilasa.mvuto; nibbaanagamana.m magga.m, khippameva visodhaye"ti. (Dha. pa. 288-289)- Imaahi gaathaahi dhamma.m desesi. As the Teacher was explaining this discourse [on continued existences] without beginning or end, her grief was diminished. Seeing that her grief had diminished, he said, "Pa.taacaaraa, for one going to the next world, sons and so on cannot be a shelter, protection, or refuge. Therefore, the path leading to quenching is to be accomplished by the wise man by purifying his own virtuous conduct. And he taught the Doctrine by expounding these verses: Neither sons nor a father nor relations are a shelter. Relatives are not a shelter for one who is seized by death. Knowing this matter, the wise men, restrained through virtuous conduct, would quickly purify the path leading to quenching. RD: Thus, through the Master's words touching the way where no salvation lies, the grief in her became lighter to bear. Knowing this, he went on: 'O Pa.taacaaraa, to one passing to another world no child nor other kin is able to be a shelter or a hiding-place or a refuge. Not here, even, can they be such. Therefore, let whoso is wise purify his own conduct, and accomplish the Path leading even to Nibbana.' Thus he taught her, and said: 'Sons are no shelter, nor father, nor any kinsfolk. O'ertaken by death, for thee blood-bond is no refuge. Discerning this truth, the wise man, well ordered by virtue, Swiftly makes clear the road leading on to Nibbana. Desanaavasaane pa.taacaaraa sotaapattiphale pati.t.thahitvaa satthaara.m pabbajja.m yaaci. Satthaa ta.m bhikkhuniina.m santika.m netvaa pabbaajesi. Saa laddhuupasampadaa uparimaggatthaaya vipassanaaya kamma.m karontii ekadivasa.m gha.tena udaka.m aadaaya paade dhovantii udaka.m aasi~nci. Ta.m thoka.m .thaana.m gantvaa pacchijji, dutiyavaara.m aasitta.m tato duura.m agamaasi, tatiyavaara.m aasitta.m tatopi duuratara.m agamaasi. Saa tadeva aaramma.na.m gahetvaa tayo vaye paricchinditvaa "mayaa pa.thama.m aasitta-udaka.m viya ime sattaa pa.thamavayepi maranti, tato duura.m gata.m dutiyavaara.m aasitta.m udaka.m viya majjhimavayepi, tato duuratara.m gata.m tatiyavaara.m aasitta.m udaka.m viya pacchimavayepi marantiyevaa"ti cintesi. At the end of the discourse, Pa.taacaaraa was established in the fruition state of Stream-Entry, and she asked the Teacher for the going forth. The Teacher led her into the presence of the bhikkhuniis and had her go forth. Having obtained ordination, she devoted herself to insight for the sake of the higher path. One day, she took water in a pot, and while washing her feet poured water out. It went a short distance and stopped. Then the second time, when it was poured out, it went further; and when it was poured out a third time, it went further still. Taking this as a support [for contemplation], she noted the three periods in a life, thinking, "Just like the water poured out by me, these beings die in youth. Then just as the water that was poured out went further the second time, they die in middle age. Then just as the water poured out the third time went further still, they die in old age." === to be continued, connie #70011 From: "Sukinder" Date: Tue Mar 27, 2007 4:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Letters on Vipassana 11, no 2. sukinderpal Hi Howard (and Nina), Butting in. I realize that Nina has responded and you have answered, but I choose this one, since it is shorter and easier to respond to. ================================ Nina: > “I do not think, ‘defilements are so ugly’, they are just realities. > There should be understanding of them. People want to get rid of all > defilements but they do not have any understanding of them. Why > should our first objective not be right understanding? I do not > understand why people are so much irritated by their defilements. One > is drawn to the idea of self all the time, while one thinks about it > whether one has less defilements or more. There is no understanding > but merely thinking of kusala and akusala as ‘ours’. So long as there > is ignorance there must be different degrees of akusala. We should > just develop understanding of whatever reality appears. At the moment > of developing understanding one is not carried away by thoughts about > the amount of one’s defilements, wondering about it how many > defilements one has or whether they are decreasing. Just be aware > instantly!â€? > > We may not notice that we think of kusala and akusala as “oursâ €?, but > the idea is there, deep in our mind. Khun Sujin’s reminders can help > us to consider more thoroughly what motivates our actions, speech and > thoughts. Is it not mostly clinging to ourselves? Sarah remarked that > when she reflects on lobha she has dosa and that this “spoils the > funâ€?. Khun Sujin answered: > > “That is only reflection, not the understanding of the characteristic > which is not self. Who could change the characteristic of attachment. > Understanding should be developed in a natural way. This is a relief. > Even if lobha arises again, we should realize it as only a reality. > You can understand the characteristic of lobha we talk about a great > deal. It’s nature is non-self. This way of developing understanding > is the most effective way. Then there is no attachment or aversion > towards the object which appears. You should not stop pleasure, it is > not ‘you’.â€? > Nina ========================= Howard: I agree that clear and direct understanding of defilements, as for all phenomena, is the key. However, clarity of understanding needs to be cultivated. Also, the defilements are, in fact, exactly that: defilements, and to be uprooted, and this requires action. Sukin: "Action" or "cultivation"? If the former, any `agent' involved? ========================= Howard: On the way to uprooting defilements, kusala states are to be encouraged and akusala discouraged. Sukin: Again, by an `agent'? If you are talking about impersonal mental factors, why argue then? Nina has always talked in terms of just that! ========================= Howard: What, after all, are the four right efforts all about? Sukin: Viriya cetasikas performing its function at different times when accompanied by other kusala mental factors such as sati, saddha, panna….. ========================= Howard: To say “Should we hate our akusala? It is just a reality, it arisesâ €?sounds very "Zen" ;-),…….. Sukin: I don't know about it being Zen, however here, A. Sujin is very directly saying that dosa, no matter what the object, is akusala and therefore *not helpful*. ========================== Howard: but even the most "Zen" of Zen masters will say that nothing comes from nothing. Sukin: If by `something' they mean some kind of `formal practice', then "Zen" does not reflect a correct understanding of the Buddha's teachings. ========================== Howard: The Buddha did not recommend passivity with regard to kusala and akusala states, but proactiveness. Sukin: The Buddha encouraged all levels of kusala including dana, sila, samatha and vipassana bhavana. Nobody has ever suggested that he encouraged any form of akusala, not even the most subtle one's such as that which arises immediately after any sense door experience!! However it is "Sammaditthi" that he uniquely taught, without which other kusala no matter how great, will ever serve to lead one out of samsara. "Wrong View" is therefore the first of the akusala needed to be and possible of being, eradicated, and how is this done if not by the development of `right view' (in other words `PANNA')? It is by this path of development, that wrong view is seen in its various forms as being the only real hindrance to treading the middle way, one that is liable to take all dhammas, including `kusala' for "self". Why this idea about `proactiveness' when after all there are only dhammas performing their unique functions? My opinion is that such ideas arises as a result of "self view", clinging to it and then tending toward mistaking akusala for kusala. =========================== Howard: The material "We should just develop understanding of whatever reality appears. At the moment of developing understanding one is not carried away by thoughts about the amount of one’s defilements, wondering about it how many defilements one has or whether they are decreasing. Just be aware instantly!" is rather amusing to me, especially the last sentence! Just do it, huh? Sukin: This is not a statement similar to that `proactive' idea. It is a reminder about the importance of knowing the present moment or the understanding that "there is just this present moment reality"! That while we continue to dwell on the past and future, continued ignorance and misinterpretation of present moment realities is taking place. Besides it is about *development* of understanding, hence `open' to all possible levels of this. ============================ Howard: It reminds me of Nancy Reagan's answer to drug addiction, "Just say no!" The difficulty in just being aware "instantly" of the defilements is exactly the defilements, themselves!! Sukin: Sounds like an excuse by "self" to do something else instead. :-) As I said above, there can be any level of understanding in the moment. If instead of direct understanding there is some idea of what has just fallen away, that this was conditioned, impermanent, anatta and so on, this I think is infinitely more valuable than any idea of "doing". Those two levels of understanding are of the same stuff, being convinced about the present moment as being the only valid object of understanding and refuse to entertain ideas about the past and future. Formal meditation, *is* a result of thinking about the past and future! ============================ Howard: They need to be weakened in order to be clearly aware of them, and that weakening is accomplished by the four right efforts, by sila bhavana in general, and by meditative bhavana. Sukin: If anything is in the way of the development of right view, it is "wrong view" and not the other akusala dhammas. This idea of needing to weaken defilements before any understanding can be developed, is itself "wrong understanding" and is far from being helpful. ============================ Howard: Nothing comes from nothing, and that includes cultivation of mindfulness and insight. Sukin: Yes, "nothing comes from nothing", akusala arises because of akusala in the past, so with kusala of all levels. There is "development of understanding", this is a conditioned dhamma. Conventional activities such as `meditation' is not a dhamma, but could be said to involve many possible dhammas. However, given that we are ignorant about the actual characteristics of dhammas, esp. sati and panna, if the focus then goes on to `conventional practices' instead of present moment realities, then we place ourselves to be completely fooled! Metta, Sukin.. #70012 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Mar 27, 2007 5:03 am Subject: Re: Agreeable and Disagreeable scottduncan2 Dear Larry, Sorry for the delay. S: "Citta would have to be conditioned specially in order to know whether the particular vipaaka-citta is agreeable or disagreeable - to distinguish between vipaaka and impulsion." L: "I think this determination is just a general consensus valuation made apart from whether one likes it or not..." Scott: Just to clarify, are you saying that the difference between agreeable and disagreeable, as noted in the Dispeller... "...The agreeable and disagreeable are distinguishable according to [kamma-] result (vipaaka) only, not according to impulsion (javana). But it is impulsion through perversion of perception (sa~n~navipallasa) only that lusts for the agreeable or hates the same agreeable, that lusts for the disagreeable or hates the same disagreeable." ...is one determined by mundane consensus? L: "...The idea is to show that good deeds are rewarded and bad deeds are punished, wealth is a reward, poverty is punishment *in general*. If you like poverty or dislike wealth the perversion of perception is in complicating or rejecting the notion of reward and punishment. But either like or dislike is linked to a perversion of perception on another level, regardless of what is agreeable and disagreeable." Scott: I'm not sure whether vipaaka is best understood as 'reward' or 'punishment', although I'm not sure the sense in which these terms are used. I agree that the dislike is linked to sa~n~navipallasa and is 'at another level'. I guess I'm just not sure about the basic ability to know the difference between a moment of consciousness that is either 'pure' result - whether pleasant or unpleasant - or moment of consciousness that is post-impulsion thinking about whether something is agreeable or disagreeable, without the assistance of some dhamma such as sati or pa~n~na. I read the text to be implying that it is difficult to know, at a basic level, what the nature of that first pure experience is. I thought it is hard enough to understand the 'theoretical' aspect vipaaka in relation to each moment of consciousness in the five-doors, let alone to be able to tell 'in real life' what the difference is. Sorry I'm still a bit lost vis-a-vis your point. Can you help me see more where you are coming from? Sincerely, Scott. #70013 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Mar 27, 2007 1:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. : Letters on Vipassana 11, no 2. upasaka_howard Hi, James - In a message dated 3/26/07 9:21:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@... writes: > "There are these five rewards in listening to the Dhamma. Which five? > > "One hears what one has not heard before. One clarifies what one has > heard before. One gets rid of doubt. One's views are made straight. > One's mind grows serene. > > "These are the five rewards in listening to the Dhamma." > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an05/an05.202.than.html > > So, listening to the Dhamma will, at the most, result in samatha. ======================= Thank you for your supportive post, James. I don't quite agree with your conclusion as stated above, though, because I believe that further inferences can be drawn from the five rewards listed. Listening to the dhamma clarifies intellectual understanding - which is background support (one condition among many) for subsequent wisdom, and also, and most importantly, it guides one in one's practice - which is essential, and it removes intellectual doubt - which encourages practice and also serves to weaken deeper-set doubt. So, as I see it, and I know you do as well, listening, considering, and coming to (intellectually) understand the Dhamma as best one can is an essential and fundamental step. It is the basis for practice in accordance with the Dhamma, but - and here we also agree wholeheartedly - without the further practice, the mere listening and mulling over is just wholesome and pleasant activity that will not lead to wisdom and release. With metta, Howard #70014 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Tue Mar 27, 2007 5:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. : Letters on Vipassana 11, no 2. rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: >--------------------- > Howard: > One does not have to study lists to distinguish wholesome from > unwholesome. Unless one is a psychopath, one has a darn good idea of the difference. > There are no surprises on those lists of kusala and akusala. The four right efforts are to > be engaged in, practiced, honed, and improved upon. > ---------------------------------------- Dear Howard Have you ever listened to a Christian preacher (to give an extreme example). He thinks he is doing good when preaching, in fact it is only miccha ditthi, akusala. Or some people think that the joy they feel in attachment to children is kusala. These are very coarse examples of how most people have very mistaken ideas about what is kusala. There are many more subtle levels. > > > H: The difficulty in just being aware "instantly" of > > the defilements is exactly the defilements, themselves!! They need to > > be weak > > ened in order to be clearly aware of them, and that weakening is > > accomplished > > by the four right efforts, ______ Here is a good thread on right effort http://www.abhidhamma.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=135 Robert #70015 From: han tun Date: Tue Mar 27, 2007 5:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Leading to stream entry hantun1 Dear Sarah, Sarah: [*Referring above to Lily de Silva's comments, reminds me of Han's Daana Corner (26) #69905. At the end of the quote from Lily de Silva's article, she suggests a contradiction in the suttas. "It is evident here that a later interpolation cannot be altogether ruled out." I don't think this can be correct (i.e 'a later interpolation'), but would be interested to hear any comments you (or Han or others) may have on this.] Han: I don’t think there was a later interpolation to MN 142 Dakkhinaavibhanga Sutta. The important thing is when making offerings, one should focus one’s mind on giving to the Sangha, and regarding any monk as the *representative* of the Sangha, and therefore *represents* all the virtues of the Buddha’s first five disciples, and all the Arahants, past and present. If a donor thus concentrates his mind on the virtues of the whole Sangha, even if he offers to an immoral monk he will have the benefit as if he offers to the virtuous monks. The offering is beneficial not because of the monks’ immoral nature, but because of the purity of the Sangha. The benefits will prevail if the mind of the donor is thus skillfully directed. ------------------------------ Ledi Sayadaw in his article on “What Are the Factors of Sanghikadâna?” wrote: Quote: [The Dakkhinaavibhanga Sutta of the Majjhimanikaaya mentions seven types of Sanghikadaana: 1. Offerings to both Sanghas headed by the Buddha. 2. After the parinibbâna of the Buddha, offerings to both Sanghas. 3. Offerings to the Bhikkhu Sangha only. 4. Offering to the Bhikkhunî Sangha only. 5. Offerings to selected bhikkhus and bhikkhunîs as the Sangha’s representatives. 6. Offerings to selected bhikkhus as the Sangha’s representatives. 7. Offerings to selected bhikkhunîs as the Sangha’s representatives. When making such offerings, one should focus one’s mind on giving to the Sangha. So the Buddha classified seven kinds of Sangha. This Sanghikadaana brings the greatest benefits for all. Before making the offerings, the donor should meditate on the nine virtues of the Sangha. He or she should banish the idea of personal references or personal attitudes towards any individual monk, regarding the whole Sangha as the recipient. How is this attitude possible? A donor must not choose individual monks according to personal preference. He or she must suppress any likes and dislikes. The intention to offer to the Sangha must focus on the virtues of the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha. Avoiding personal preferences, one should regard any monk as the representative of the Sangha. One should reflect thus: “He is a son of the Buddha, a representative of the Sangha, and therefore represents all the virtues of the Buddha’s first five disciples, the sixty Arahants who were the first missionaries, the one thousand Arahants of the Uruvela Forest, and other Arahants like Venerables Saariputta, Moggallaana, and Mahaakassapa.” Thus the supporter concentrates his mind on the virtues of the whole Sangha and, in this way, donates Sanghikadaana. The commentary says, “Even in offering to immoral monks who only wear the robes around their necks, if one focuses the mind on the Sangha, it amounts to offering to the eighty great Arahants lead by the Venerables Saariputta and Moggallaana.” The good results one gets are the same. This is possible because the Noble Sangha, the true sons of the Buddha, by their powerful virtues, permeate influences and honour even today. The offering is beneficial not because of the monks’ immoral nature, but because of the purity of the Sangha. Thus, a donor must focus his mind on the purity and power of the Buddha’s Noble Sangha. So even when offering to immoral monks, such good influences and benefits prevail if the mind is skilfully directed. So offering robes to immoral monks, amounts to offerings made to Arahants, past and present, who have completely eradicated the defilements. This Dhamma support gives Sanghikadâna the greatest benefits. In offering food, dwellings, etc., the donor must pay regard to the Sangha only. So he becomes a supporter of the Sangha — all the greatest disciples of the Buddha.] End Quote. For more details, please click on http://www.aimwell.org/Books/Ledi/Dhamma/Sanghadana/sanghadana.html Respectfully, Han #70016 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Mar 27, 2007 2:09 am Subject: A Tribute to Mark: What is Unimportant in the Light of Death upasaka_howard Hi, all - In the Reform Jewish prayerbook, and probably in the Orthodox as well, there is a statement to the effect that what is unimportant in the light of death is unimportant in itself. We just were called to inform us of the death of a friend. He wasn't one of our closest friends, but we loved him. He was a sweet man - sweet, gentle, kind, and a man of understanding. We've known him for years, I in particular as a fellow member of the the choir at the Reform temple to which we belong. He suffered much and long, and his wife, so close to him, suffered along with him. I pray that he fares well now, and that the goodness he demonstrated in this life brings wonderful fruition for him. The universe reminds us again and again of impermanence, but we so easily forget. Seize the moment. Now is the time to do what needs to be done - to do no harm, to do good, and to purify the mind. With metta, Howard #70017 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Mar 27, 2007 6:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. : Letters on Vipassana 11, no 2. buddhatrue Hi Howard (and Nina), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, James - > > In a message dated 3/26/07 9:21:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, > buddhatrue@... writes: > > > "There are these five rewards in listening to the Dhamma. Which five? > > > > "One hears what one has not heard before. One clarifies what one has > > heard before. One gets rid of doubt. One's views are made straight. > > One's mind grows serene. > > > > "These are the five rewards in listening to the Dhamma." > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an05/an05.202.than.html > > > > So, listening to the Dhamma will, at the most, result in samatha. > ======================= > Thank you for your supportive post, James. > I don't quite agree with your conclusion as stated above, though, > because I believe that further inferences can be drawn from the five rewards > listed. James: I wasn't talking about further inferences which could be drawn out from these five rewards, I was just looking at the five rewards themselves. The Buddha listed five rewards of listening to the Dhamma (that's it- just listening), and those rewards culminate in samatha. Which, I think if anyone pays attention to their minds while they are listening to or reading the dhamma, they will notice that it does result in samatha- a deep feeling of calm. However, when one stops and goes about daily life, that calm quickly dissipates. Listening to the dhamma clarifies intellectual understanding - which is > background support (one condition among many) for subsequent wisdom, James: Well, I am not talking about subsequent wisdom, I am talking about "straightening one's views" which comes about through simply listening to the Dhamma. "Straightening one's views" of course requires some degree of wisdom; however, it is not a very deep or lasting wisdom. It is not the type of wisdom which will directly see the three characteristics of reality- as KS and Nina state. and also, > and most importantly, it guides one in one's practice - which is essential, and > it removes intellectual doubt - which encourages practice and also serves to > weaken deeper-set doubt. James: Yes, it does help to remove doubt; but again, it doesn't completely remove doubt. Only practice in accordance with the Dhamma will do that- and practice in accordance with the Dhamma isn't simply listening to the Dhamma. So, as I see it, and I know you do as well, > listening, considering, and coming to (intellectually) understand the Dhamma as best > one can is an essential and fundamental step. It is the basis for practice in > accordance with the Dhamma, but - and here we also agree wholeheartedly - > without the further practice, the mere listening and mulling over is just wholesome > and pleasant activity that will not lead to wisdom and release. James: Well, here you agree with me and the Buddha. No problem. :-) (I'm not sure where we disagree exactly ;-)) > > With metta, > Howard Metta, James #70018 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Mar 27, 2007 6:30 am Subject: Rupas, Ch 4, no 5 nilovg Dear friends, We read in the Commentary to the “Satipatthåna Sutta” 6 , in the section on the four kinds of Clear Comprehension, about clear comprehension in wearing robes: ... Within there is nothing called a soul that robes itself. According to the method of exposition adopted already, only, by the diffusion of the process of oscillation (the element of wind or motion) born of mental activity does the act of robing take place. The robe has no power to think and the body too has not that power. The robe is not aware of the fact that it is draping the body, and the body too of itself does not think: “I am being draped round with the robe.” Mere processes clothe a process-heap, in the same way that a modelled figure is covered with a piece of cloth. Therefore, there is neither room for elation on getting a fine robe nor for depression on getting one that is not fine. This passage is a good reminder of the truth, also for laypeople. We are used to the impact of cloths on the body, most of the time we do not even notice it. Or we are taken in by the pleasantness of soft material that touches the body, or by the colour of our cloths. We can be mindful of softness or colour as only elements. In reality there are only elements impinging on elements. We read in the “Gradual Sayings” (II, Book of the Fours, Ch XVIII, § 7, Råhula) that the Buddha said to Råhula: Råhula, both the internal earth-element and that in external objects are just this earth-element. Thus it should be regarded, as it really is, by perfect wisdom: “This is not of me. Not this am I. Not to me is this the self.” So seeing it, as it really is, by perfect wisdom, one has revulsion for the earth-element; by wisdom one cleanses the heart of passion. The same is said of the elements of water, heat and wind. The Buddha then said: Now, Råhula, when a monk beholds neither the self nor what pertains to the self in these four elements, this one is called “a monk who has cut off craving, has loosed the bond, and by perfectly understanding (this) vain conceit, has made an end of Ill.” ******* Nina. #70019 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Mar 27, 2007 2:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. : Letters on Vipassana 11, no 2. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and James) - In a message dated 3/27/07 3:52:57 AM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: > > Hi James and Howard, > thanks for the sutta. > > Straightening one's views, what is that? First one had wrong view, a > wrong interpretation of reality, but after listening one can get > cured from wrong view. Is that not pa~n~naa? --------------------------------------- Howard: I see it as correct intellectual understanding, and a support for wisdom. -------------------------------------- > > As to, 'One's mind grows serene', the Pali has: cittamassa pasidati. > To become bright, purified. The Pali pasaada is clearness and > confidence. The Thai translation has: he has confidence. > When one listens and one gains understanding one has more confidence > in the teachings. > >One hears what one has not heard before. I do not know your and > >Howard's story, how you first came into contact with the dhamma. > >Did it not begin with hearing or reading what you had not heard > >before? > > Right listening will result in the development of understanding, of > vipassana and eventually this will lead to nibbaana. --------------------------------------- Howard: I don't underestimate the importannce of listening to the Dhamma and reflecting on it. I say that frequently, Nina. I merely say that it is not the whole of what needs to be done. -------------------------------------- > I will not stop this one-tune melody that hurts Howard's ears. I feel > it is right. People do not always like what they hear. > I was not going to answer Howard's post at first, because I find the > language used re Kh Sujin and also your language, James, aggressive > and insulting. > ------------------------------------- Howard: Nina, you are saying that I was insulting? I gave my evaluation of her ideas with carefully chosen language, and no with insult. It happens that quite recently I wrote offlist with regard to not speaking insultingly. Nina, if not to be "aggressive and insulting" requires not disagreeing, then there is no point in posting. I'm sorry that you were offended, Nina. I didn't mean to upset you. But I tell you, that my speech was not wrong speech. ---------------------------------------- One can say that one does not agree, but there are > > also polite ways in saying this. I have no more time for you both if > you go on like this. ------------------------------------------ Howard: I'm sorry that you are upset, Nina. I think it has more to do with you than with me. I intended no unkindness, and I expressed none. I was simply clear in my statements. If Jon and Sarah wish, I will unsubscribe. ------------------------------------------ > Here is the Pali for those who like Pali: > “Pañcime bhikkhave, anisa?sa dhammassavane. Katame pañca? > Assuta? su?ati suta? pariyodapeti, ka?kha? vitarati > [vihanati (sya. ka?. pi. ka.)], di??hi? uju? karoti, > cittamassa pasidati. Ime kho, bhikkhave, pañca anisa?sa > dhammassavaneâ€?ti. Dutiya?. > Nina. ======================= With metta - truly, Howard #70020 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Mar 27, 2007 6:31 am Subject: Re: A Tribute to Mark: What is Unimportant in the Light of Death buddhatrue Hi Howard, A good reminder. Life is indeed very short so we must not put off development of the path. So sorry to hear about the loss of your friend. Metta, James #70021 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Mar 27, 2007 6:38 am Subject: Letters on Vipassana 11, no 4 nilovg Dear friends, Sarah: “We have considered seeing and discussed about the details of realities a great deal, I wonder how much more we should hear about it.” Khun Sujin: “Until awareness is aware with understanding right now. That is why the Buddha taught for fortyfive years about nåma and rúpa. The Abhidhamma is the essence of his teachings. He taught about paramattha dhammas so that one can see the difference between paramattha dhammas and concepts. He taught the conditions for realities. Knowing which cetasikas accompany citta helps one to see the nature of anattå. It is amazing that there are so many conditions needed for one moment of experiencing visible object, and then that moment is gone completely. It is all very intricate, not everyone can understand this instantly.” Sarah: “It never is enough, one can always know the object more precisely and in a more detailed way.” Khun Sujin: “Otherwise we underestimate the Buddha’s wisdom, we may think that he used just common, ordinary words. He taught us, so that by listening and considering more and more we could one day become a sotåpanna. By gradually developing understanding we can acquire full understanding of realities which appear. Right understanding of visible object and seeing is the only way to eradicate the latent tendencies of ‘I see’, and ‘me’, which are there all the time. Whenever there is feeling, it is ‘me’ again. The Buddha taught about five khandhas, he taught in many different ways in order to help people to consider more, to understand more, so that, when there is awareness, right understanding can gradually develop.“ Sarah: “When there is no awareness we become impatient. Why is there not more awareness?” Khun Sujin: ”There are not enough påramís (perfections) accumulated.” Sarah: ”Which påramís?” Khun Sujin: “All påramís are needed. We should not be careless about them and we should not neglect any one of them. Paññå is needed above all, the other nine påramís are the “attendants” of paññå. Without paññå the other påramís cannot develop.” We read in the commentary to the “Cariyåpitaaka”, the “Paramatthadípaní”, that the aspiration (to become a Buddha) and also great compassion and skilful means are conditions for the påramís. We read: “Therein, skilful means is the wisdom which transforms dåna (and the other nine virtues) into requisites for enlightenment.” ******* Nina. #70022 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Mar 27, 2007 6:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. : Letters on Vipassana 11, no 2. nilovg Hi Howard (and James), The language used struck me as not suitable, especially when James repeated it once more. And especially as it concerns Kh Sujin. I do not mind venting from others, but at a certain moment it is enough for me. But it is all right now. I think you and James do not realize the effect of language. You know also that according to me of course anybody can disagree, no harm done. How can you think that I would mind disagreement? You wrote: How did you get that into your head? Nina. Op 27-mrt-2007, om 15:32 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > I'm sorry that you are upset, Nina. I think it has more to do with you > than with me. I intended no unkindness, and I expressed none. I was > simply > clear in my statements. If Jon and Sarah wish, I will unsubscribe. #70023 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Mar 27, 2007 3:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Daana Corner (25) upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and Han & James) - In a message dated 3/27/07 5:11:42 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > S: In this context of the bases of meritorious deeds, it seems to be > particularly 'the path of insight' that is intended. I agree with James > that the dictionary meaning of meditation is more along the lines of > 'reflection' and 'contemplation'. If this is what you mean by > 'meditation', it's not too bad, but of course, the development of insight, > the understanding of namas and rupas, is much more than mere wise > contemplation. > ===================== It's not what I mean. I mean the process of cultivating deep states of calm, clarity, and insight that transform the mind. I do not identify meditation with reflection and contemplation. They are important, and they are they constitute the Christian idea of meditation, I believe, but they are not what I understand by Buddhist meditation. With metta, Howard #70024 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Mar 27, 2007 7:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. : Letters on Vipassana 11, no 2. nilovg Dear Rob K, I liked what I read here in your forum: (end quote). I heard Kh Sujin say in a Thai session: She often reminds us of the knife handle one holds each day but which takes so long wearing away. The practice is cira kala bhaavanaa, development that takes a long time. Listening is important. If we do not first hear the Dhamma how can sati arise? But we need sincerity to understand that it is not us who can do something. It needs truthfulness to admit that often self slips in and distorts. Nina. Op 27-mrt-2007, om 14:33 heeft rjkjp1 het volgende geschreven: > Here is a good thread on right effort #70025 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Mar 27, 2007 4:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. : Letters on Vipassana 11, no 2. upasaka_howard Hi, Robert - In a message dated 3/27/07 7:34:13 AM Eastern Standard Time, rjkjp1@... writes: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > >--------------------- > >Howard: > > One does not have to study lists to distinguish wholesome > from > >unwholesome. Unless one is a psychopath, one has a darn good idea > of the difference. > >There are no surprises on those lists of kusala and akusala. The > four right efforts are to > >be engaged in, practiced, honed, and improved upon. > >---------------------------------------- > Dear Howard > Have you ever listened to a Christian preacher (to give an extreme > example). He thinks he is doing good when preaching, in fact it is > only miccha ditthi, akusala. Or some people think that the joy they > feel in attachment to children is kusala. These are very coarse > examples of how most people have very mistaken ideas about what is > kusala. There are many more subtle levels. ------------------------------------ Howard: Yes, of course. Proper evaluation and distinguishing right from wrong, especially in fine detail, requires cultivation. We are all far from perfect, and error readily and frequently occurs on subtle matters. ------------------------------------ > > > >>>H: The difficulty in just being aware "instantly" of > >>the defilements is exactly the defilements, themselves!! They > need to > >>be weak > >>ened in order to be clearly aware of them, and that weakening is > >>accomplished > >>by the four right efforts, > ______ > Here is a good thread on right effort > http://www.abhidhamma.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=135 ---------------------------------------- Howard: Thanks. I've saved the link for careful perusal. :-) --------------------------------------- > Robert > > ====================== With metta, Howard #70026 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Mar 27, 2007 4:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. : Letters on Vipassana 11, no 2. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 3/27/07 8:47:52 AM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: > But it is all right now. =================== I'm happy to hear this. I wish only peace and happiness for you, Nina. With metta, Howard #70027 From: "Phil" Date: Tue Mar 27, 2007 8:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. : Letters on Vipassana 11, no 2. philofillet Hi Nina I imagine my obnoxious posts haven't helped. Sorry for that. I note that James and Howard are willing to discuss thoroughly whereas I just shoot off my mouth and flee! You have been so patient here! Hang in there, as we say in North- American English. Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Howard (and James), > The language used struck me as not suitable, especially when James > repeated it once more. And especially as it concerns Kh Sujin. I do > not mind venting from others, but at a certain moment it is enough > for me. #70028 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Mar 27, 2007 11:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. : Letters on Vipassana 11, no 2. nilovg Hi Phil, I am especially happy about your kind words. I am not patient enough with you all, but sometimes venting gets too much for me , because I am only human, you know. Nina. Op 27-mrt-2007, om 17:53 heeft Phil het volgende geschreven: > You have been so patient here! Hang in there, as we say in North- > American English. #70029 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Mar 27, 2007 12:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Leading to stream entry nilovg Dear Han, When we were in India Kh Sujin and I passed a monk who asked for money, and he did not behave like a monk. Kh sujin said: she just paid attention to the yellow robe. This reminded her of the sangha. Nina. Op 27-mrt-2007, om 14:45 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > The commentary says, “Even in offering to immoral > monks who only wear the robes around their necks, if > one focuses the mind on the Sangha, it amounts to > offering to the eighty great Arahants lead by the > Venerables Saariputta and Moggallaana. #70031 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Mar 27, 2007 12:02 pm Subject: Q. Rupas, Ch 4, no 4 nilovg Hi Howard, -------- H: Could you kindly explain in what sense the derived rupas are derived from the four great elements? Does it mean that the 4 elements are conditions for the arising of the others, and, if so, in what way exactly, or does it mean something else or more? Just calling the other rupas "derived" does no more than associate a tag. What is the precise meaning, please? -------- N: The four great Elements are the foundation for all the other rupas. The derived rupas are dependent on the four Great Elements and cannot arise without them. Derived: upaada, and this is associated in meaning with grasping. As I wrote: Thus, visible object could not arise without the four great Elements, it arises in a group of rupas and the four great Elements have to arise in each group of rupas. They support them, they are dependence- condition to them, nissaya paccaya. Rupas are not mere terms, they realities and several of them appear all the time. As I posted today: 'We are used to the impact of cloths on the body, most of the time we do not even notice it. Or we are taken in by the pleasantness of soft material that touches the body, or by the colour of our cloths. We can be mindful of softness or colour as only elements. In reality there are only elements impinging on elements.' This was a reminder for myself when I read it to Lodewijk, I am usually forgetful. But when there can be a short moment of mindfulness of softness or hardness it will lead to less clinging. We cling to all the sense objects but they are insignificant rupas that do not last. ------- Nina. #70032 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Mar 27, 2007 10:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Fwd: Q. Rupas, Ch 4, no 4 upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 3/27/07 2:32:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: > trying to send again ======================== Thank you. It arrived. :-) So, please correct me if I misunderstand: The derived rupas are derived from the four great elements in the sense that they co-occur, with the derived ones never occuring without the others being present, though the converse isn't the case. Would that be it, Nina? With metta, Howard #70033 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Mar 27, 2007 4:31 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Agreeable and Disagreeable lbidd2 Hi Scott, S: "Just to clarify, are you saying that the difference between agreeable and disagreeable, as noted in the Dispeller... "...The agreeable and disagreeable are distinguishable according to [kamma-] result (vipaaka) only, not according to impulsion (javana). But it is impulsion through perversion of perception (sa~n~navipallasa) only that lusts for the agreeable or hates the same agreeable, that lusts for the disagreeable or hates the same disagreeable." ...is one determined by mundane consensus?" L: Yes. That is what I am saying. S: "I guess I'm just not sure about the basic ability to know the difference between a moment of consciousness that is either 'pure' result - whether pleasant or unpleasant - or moment of consciousness that is post-impulsion thinking about whether something is agreeable or disagreeable, without the assistance of some dhamma such as sati or pa~n~na." L: The agreeable and disagreeable isn't a moment of consciousness. It is a cultural or situational value, an aggregate of many vipaka cittas and kamma produced rupas. It is how Canada is different from the US. S: "I read the text to be implying that it is difficult to know, at a basic level, what the nature of that first pure experience is. I thought it is hard enough to understand the 'theoretical' aspect vipaaka in relation to each moment of consciousness in the five-doors, let alone to be able to tell 'in real life' what the difference is." L: It's difficult to separate objects and values but it isn't particularly difficult to find out what is a valuable object. Just turn on the tv. A hunk of gold is a valuable object. If you find one that means you must have done something good a long time ago. If you want to find more gold, you better do some good while you're here. It is an ethical system that anyone can understand. What's the point of ethics if no one knows what's good? The text says, "The agreeable and disagreeable are distinguishable according to [kamma-] result (vipaaka) only, not according to impulsion (javana)." If you find a hunk of gold lust may immediately arise and your reflective self might think therefore gold is undesirable. But it is the lust that is undesirable. The gold is desirable. That is to say in that culture or situation gold is a good thing. If you were an ant gold would just be an obstacle. Larry Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (8) #70034 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Mar 27, 2007 4:41 pm Subject: Vism.XVII,142 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visudddhimagga), Ch. XVII 142. In another's case, relatives present [objects to him] at the five sense doors, such as a visible datum as object, perhaps flowers, garlands, flags, banners, etc., saying, 'This is being offered to the Blessed One for your sake, dear, set your mind at rest'; or a sound as object, perhaps, preaching of the Dhamma, offerings of music, etc.; or an odour as object, perhaps incense, scents, perfumes, etc; or a taste as object, perhaps honey, molasses, etc., saying, 'Taste this, dear, it is a gift to be given for your sake'; or a tangible datum as object, perhaps Chinese silk, silk of Somaara, saying, 'Touch this, dear, it is a gift to be given for your sake'. Now when that visible datum, or whatever it may be, as object has come into focus for him and the consciousnesses ending in determining have arisen in due succession, there arise in him impulsions numbering five because of slowing down due to the nearness of death, and two registrations; after that, one death consciousness, making the life-continuum's objective field its object. At the end of that, having that same object, which lasts only a single conscious moment, rebirth-linking consciousness arises. This also is the kind of rebirth-linking with a 'present' object and comes next to a death consciousness with a 'past' object. ************************** 142. aparassa mara.nasamaye ~naatakaa ``aya.m taata tavatthaaya buddhapuujaa kariiyati citta.m pasaadehii''ti vatvaa pupphadaamapa.taakaadivasena ruupaaramma.na.m vaa, dhammassavanatuuriyapuujaadivasena saddaaramma.na.m vaa, dhuumavaasagandhaadivasena gandhaaramma.na.m vaa, ``ida.m taata saayassu tavatthaaya daatabbadeyyadhamma´´nti vatvaa madhuphaa.nitaadivasena rasaaramma.na.m vaa, ``ida.m taata phusassu tavatthaaya daatabbadeyyadhamma´´nti vatvaa ciinapa.t.tasomaarapa.t.taadivasena pho.t.thabbaaramma.na.m vaa pa~ncadvaare upasa.mharanti, tassa tasmi.m aapaathagate ruupaadiaaramma.ne yathaakkamena uppannavo.t.thabbanaavasaane mara.nassa aasannabhaavena mandiibhuutavegattaa pa~nca javanaani, dve tadaaramma.naani ca uppajjanti. tato bhava"ngavisaya.m aaramma.na.m katvaa eka.m cuticitta.m, tadavasaane tasmi~n~neva ekacittakkha.na.t.thitike aaramma.ne pa.tisandhicitta.m uppajjati. ayampi atiitaaramma.naaya cutiyaa anantaraa paccuppannaaramma.naa pa.tisandhi. #70035 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Mar 27, 2007 5:15 pm Subject: Re: Q. : Letters on Vipassana 11, no 2. buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Howard (and James), > The language used struck me as not suitable, especially when James > repeated it once more. And especially as it concerns Kh Sujin. I do > not mind venting from others, but at a certain moment it is enough > for me. But it is all right now. I think you and James do not realize > the effect of language. You know also that according to me of course > anybody can disagree, no harm done. How can you think that I would > mind disagreement? I'm really not sure what you are referring to. If I am ever rude to you, even a little bit, I get off-list warnings from Sarah and Howard! Howard is very protective of your feelings and warns me when he thinks I have somehow "damaged" you- I usually tell him that I don't care about your feelings, the Dhamma is more important ;-)). Now, for you to say that Howard used rude language with you and that I copied him is simply ridiculous! I was not "venting" anything to you; I was just pointing out the fallacies in the KS teaching. You know, I can't help but wonder if this whole ruckus you have raised is a smoke screen to detract attention from the real issue. Let's get back to that, shall we? The Buddha's main teaching is that we should purify our minds, and here is KS saying that we shouldn't care about how pure our minds are! It doesn't matter how you look at it, this is a misrepresentation of what the Buddha taught. KS teaches that we shouldn't "hate" our defilements; well, that doesn't make any sense because hate is a defilement. Would you consider "remorse" hating? Would you consider "moral dread" hating? People don't "hate" their defilements, they have remorse and moral dread over them, which is again something the Buddha encouraged. I am not venting anything to you Nina. I am as calm and cool as a spring breeze. ;-)) I point out the deficiencies in the teaching of KS for your and other's benefit. I don't care if that hurts your feelings or sensibilities because KS is your teacher. Just consider this a "Buddhatrue Cold Shower" ;-)). Metta, James #70037 From: "colette" Date: Tue Mar 27, 2007 5:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Daana Corner (14) ksheri3 Hi sarah and Phil, I don't want to get to heavy into this since I'm focusing on Yogacara which doesn't wash with the Theravadan view but your statements do hold value here and there, as I'm sure mine do, at times. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: It's not sexy in a SOWS way and therefore not > > suitable for posting about or discussing, really. You do it or you > > don't. > .... > S: Just do it, Phil - I mean post and discuss as you see fit and don't > worry whether it's sexy in a SOWS or any other kind of way:-). Vent away > as Nina said! colette: this is where the concept of EXPERIENCE comes to play. I've found that releasing my "negativity" in such a way as to attempt levity, humor, then, it allows me to better reflect and visualize REALITY. > As for there being something 'wrong' with one's approach when one gets > agitated by others' wrong approaches, well.....a sense of humour helps, I > find!! colette: remember the buddha reminding you that while you attempt to attain Nirvana/Samsara you have to KNOW that it's all an illusion, and that, now we get into svabava, the illusions do not have inherent self existance, they are DEPENDENT on other things such as CAUSE & CONDITIONS. In reflection and meditation you will find the humor of the negativity you thought you saw. ------------------ We're all just doing our best, trying to help each other along, > lost as we are in samsara most the time. toodles, colette #70038 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Mar 27, 2007 11:09 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Wrong teaching of Thanissaro about Anatta sarahprocter... Hi James, --- buddhatrue wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > Yes, John wrote back with a very nice e-mail, but he still won't budge > about Thanissaro (I will post his response and then my response): ... S: Thank you for sharing these. You both wrote very nice, polite and friendly letters. Let us know if you have further exchange on this (or other issues). Metta, Sarah ======== #70039 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Mar 27, 2007 11:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (35) sarahprocter... Hi Connie, --- connie wrote: > connie: and sarah, et al. (whatever that means), ... S: and others (from the Latin, et alter, I think (as in alter egos) ... > ;) Pop quiz question 3, from ch.3: "The preparation of the first > jhaana > renders service to the jhaana itself by the relation of succession" -- > > footnote: Tikapa.t.thaana. Qy. Should we read upanissaya for anantara? > Cf. > Tkp., part ii, 165. > > i guess "anyone" might aspire to something beyond dry insight, but how > many in the past had the breath to get even close to that? .... S: Sorry, lost on the question on this one. Maybe Scott can track down the ref and question as I'm rushing round getting ready for all that Atlas shrugging/surfing... Or maybe you could add the Vism para #... Metta, Sarah ========= #70040 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Mar 27, 2007 11:50 pm Subject: Re: Harmonizing Perspectives Re: [dsg] Conditions and Nibbana sarahprocter... Hi James & all, --- buddhatrue wrote: > I would also like to point out the first sutta the Buddha taught, to > demonstrate that the Buddha was not simply "describing" an > experience, but also explaining a course of action as well: > > "As long as my knowledge of seeing things as they really are, was not > quite clear in these three aspects, in these twelve ways, concerning > the Four Noble Truths,3 I did not claim to have realized the > matchless, supreme Enlightenment… .... > 3. As the previous paragraphs indicate, there are three aspects of > knowledge with regard to each of the Four Noble Truths: 1. The > knowledge that it is the Truth (sacca-~nana). 2. The knowledge that a > certain function with regard to this Truth should be performed (kicca- > ~nana). 3. The knowledge that the function with regard to this Truth > has been performed (kata-~nana). The twelve ways or modes are obtained > by applying these three aspects to each of the Four Noble Truths." .... S: This of course would be from the Dhammacakkhapavattana Sutta. Thank you very much for highlighting this footnote (I assume from Thanissaro's translation of the sutta). This is exactly what the 'three aspects, in these twelve ways, concerning the Four Noble Truths' refers to. You gave a quote from Nina's e-book from one of the pilgrimages to India. K.Sujin was elaborating on these 3 rounds/aspects of sacca-~nana, kicca-~nana and kata-~nana in twelve ways with regard to the 4NT as she often does and Nina has presented a good summary here: http://www.abhidhamma.org/India7.html I'd like to add more of the quote which I was glad to be referred to by you: "Acharn Sujin referred very often to these three “rounds” or phases and explained that without the first phase, the firm understanding of what the four noble Truths are, there cannot be the second phase, the performing of the task, that is, satipatthana, nor the third phase, the fruit of the practice, that is, the penetration of the true nature of realities. With regard to the first phase, she said that there should be the firm intellectual understanding of the first noble Truth, and that means understanding that there is dhamma at this moment, that everything that appears is dhamma. Dukkha is the characteristic of dhamma that arises and falls away at this moment. We cannot control what has arisen because of conditions. It only lasts for an extremely short time, it has to fall away. When seeing appears there cannot be hearing, hearing must have fallen away. There can only be one citta at a time experiencing an object. Seeing, hearing or thinking are insignificant dhammas that arise just for an extremely short moment and are then gone. They are impermanent and thus dukkha, unsatisfactory. As regards the second noble Truth, we should thoroughly understand that attachment is the cause of dukkha. We should realize it when we cling to the idea of self. When we are seeing, thinking or considering the Dhamma there may be an idea of self who does so. When we are looking for ways and means to have more awareness, we cling to wrong practice, a form of wrong view, ditthi, which causes us to deviate from the right Path. Wrong practice prevents us from naturally developing the understanding of realities. It is necessary to have a keener and more refined knowledge of attachment, otherwise it cannot be eradicated. We can find out that it arises countless times, more often than we ever thought. As regards the third noble Truth, this is nibbana, and nibbana means the end of clinging and all other defilements. We should have the firm intellectual understanding that detachment and the eradication of defilements is the goal. We should be convinced that it is possible to attain this goal if we follow the right Path. As regards the fourth Noble Truth, the way leading to the end of dukkha, we should have the firm understanding that the development of satipatthana is the only way leading to this goal. We should understand the difference between right view and wrong view. When we are really convinced that there is no other way but the development of satipatthana, we shall not deviate from the right Path. Thus, we should not follow after the past nor desire for the future, we should be aware of any reality appearing now. When we listen to the Dhamma and consider what we hear the intellectual understanding of realities, that is, the first phase, sacca nana, gradually develops and then it can condition the arising of satipatthana. This means that the second phase, knowledge of the task, kicca nana, begins to develop. The practice, patipatti, is actually knowledge of the task that is to be performed, kicca nana. Thus, there are different levels of panna: intellectual understanding based on listening to the Dhamma, and panna accompanied by sati that is directly aware of the characteristics of realities appearing now through one of the six doorways. These are the dhammas we studied and considered before, but now they can gradually be verified and directly understood. Knowing the difference between the moment there is no sati but only thinking about nama and rupa, and the moment there is awareness of one characteristic of nama or rupa at a time is the beginning of the development of satipatthana. Gradually we shall realize nama as nama, and rupa as rupa, we shall realize their different characteristics. When one has reached the second phase, knowledge of the task or the practice, the first phase, intellectual understanding of the truth, is not abandoned but develops further. One understands more deeply what the four noble Truths are and one sees more clearly that satipatthana, awareness of what appears now is the only way leading to detachment from the idea of self and to nibbana which is the end of defilements. The clinging to self is deeply accumulated and very persistent. When panna develops it sees even the more subtle clinging to a self or the clinging to sati. A moment of right awareness is very short and attachment can arise in alternation with clinging. If panna is not keen enough, one will deviate from the right Path. There cannot be immediately clear understanding of realities, but we can begin to develop understanding of the realities we used to take for people, beings and things. Acharn Sujin reminded us that we should not move away from the present moment and that we should abandon desire for sati. She said that it seems that we wish to develop sati, reach the stages of insight and attain enlightenment, all for our own sake. However, the goal of the development of satipatthana should be understanding of the truth of anatta, thus, the truth that there is no “me”." ***** S: As the topic of the thread is 'harmonizing perspectives', I'll just repeat that I was impressed by your quotes and whether or not we agree on apsects of the path or not, certainly there is a description of experience and a course of action here as you said at the outset. The course of action, as we all agree, is the eightfold path and there is no self involved in it! Metta, Sarah p.s I'm just catching up with some old posts. Replies to any new ones will probably be after our return. ======= #70042 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Mar 28, 2007 12:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions and Nibbana sarahprocter... Hi Sobhana, --- Sobhana wrote: > Hello Sarah, > > Thank you for typing the sutta stories, those are exactly the ones I > was looking for. :) .... S: Thank you for referring it to us. ... >Has the Buddha > mentioned anything about "everything is conditioned" in the sutta > pitaka? Did he imply that anywhere in the sutta or is it only in the > abhidhamma? ... S: How about when he says 'sabbe sankhara anicca, sabbe sankhara dukkha, sabbe dhamma anatta'? I think James also gave some sutta refs. Sobhana, you've been pursuing great questions. I'll look forward to reading your further discussions and talking more later. Btw, I think you might find the edited audio discussions at www.dhammastudygroup.org very interesting. You have enough Pali and Abhidhamma background to be able to follow easily. Let me know if you have difficulty down-loading. Let us know how you find them! Metta, Sarah ========= #70044 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Mar 28, 2007 12:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Daana Corner (19) sarahprocter... Hi James, --- buddhatrue wrote: > Secondly, these immaterial gifts you quote about are meant for those > who are on the path to become a Buddha!! Do you really think it is > appropriate for me to encourage my non-Buddhist friends to donate > their lives into the service of others (as a slave), give their > organs away to those in need, or to give discourses on the Dhamma > with an undefiled mind? Come on! .... S: ;-) No answer to that! ... > > Sarah: I was also thinking of the Aghatavinaya Sutta, (A iii 186) > which stresses the reflection on the good qualities of others, rather > than dwelling on their bad qualities. > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/52455 > > James: Thank you for this sutta quote (finally one from the > Buddha!! ;-)), but I don't think it really applies to this > situation. The quote begins: ""Now as for a person who is impure in > his bodily behavior but pure in his verbal behavior, how should one > subdue hatred for him?..." .... S: I just take it as a reminder to reflect on the 'pure' and forget about the 'impure' in others as a condition for kusala rather than akusala ... Metta, Sarah ===== #70045 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Mar 28, 2007 1:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Re: Rupas. Introduction, 1.vipassana ~naa.na. sarahprocter... Hi Howard, Back to yr post #69801 and thx for your further comments. --- upasaka@... wrote: > > --- upasaka@... wrote: >> Whatever is not present but is nonetheless object of > > >awareness is > > >either merely thought of or is remembered, making it pa~n~natti. > > ..... > > S: So does this mean you're saying either: > > > > a) the object of satipatthana, a paramattha dhamma, can only be a > rupa. > > Furthermore, the rupa can only be the object in the sense-door > process. > > ---------------------------------------- > Howard: > No. First of all, I believe that wisdom is needed to see through > concepts, which includes observing the thinking process. ... S: Yes, there can be understanding and awareness of thinking. But above, you were suggesting awareness of panatti too, I thought. ... >Secondly, as > fas I have > beend to understand, the rupa persists into the following mind-door > process - > the same rupa. ... S: Actually not. Take visible object as an example. It can only last for the duration of the 17 cittas in the eye-door process. Without eye-base as a condition, it cannot be experienced. However, its characteristic is directly experienced by the succeeding mind-door process. In this way it is the paramattha dhamma of visible object which is experienced by the mind-door process. .... > -------------------------------------- > > > > > or b), the other objects of satipatthana -- any namas or rupas > experienced > > in the subsequent mind-door process -- must be pannatti, i.e that > which is > > 'merely thought of or is remembered'. > > ---------------------------------------- > Howard: > Again, "no" as regards rupas. However, as regards consciousness > of > namas, I would say "yes". .... S: For rupas, see above. So for namas, you're saying that in the development of satipatthana, only concepts are ever known? I think the Buddha taught about the knowing of the 'real', not the 'unreal'. ... >When nama A is in action, it has an object, > AO. When a > subsequent nama, S, that "has A as object" is in action, A is no longer > in > existence, AO is no longer an object, and the current nama, S, takes as > object a > simulation of A that is conceptually projected or recalled. The object > is > pa~n~natti, though one that is very faithful replica. .... S: We agree, except I understand the texts to be referring to this as a paramattha dhamma, not pannatti. ... > When A is gone, it is gone. If that is a problem with regard to > the > axiom that wisdom only deals with paramattha dhammas, so be it. .... S: I think it is only a problem for those who consider that paramattha dhammas therefore cannot ever be experienced, even by a Buddha! ... >Facts > are facts, > gone is gone, and when facts cause problems for our premisses, we need > to > check our premisses. .... S: I agree and I'm quite happy with the premise used in the texts! [CMA, ch3, #17 may be useful). Metta, Sarah p.s this is a good discussion, but I'm likely to be even slower in responding.....:-) =========== #70046 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Mar 28, 2007 1:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Wrong teaching of Thanissaro about Anatta sarahprocter... Hi Andrew (& Sobhana), --- Andrew wrote: > > Can anyone recommend a good article on Anatta? Which Bhikkhu has > written the best essay on Anatta? > > Hi Sobhana > > Try the essay "Soullessness - Anattalakkana Sutta" by Bhikkhu > Dhammapala in Wheel Publication no. 132/133/134 "Touching the Essence: > Six Lectures on Buddhism" by Bhikkhu Dhammapala (Henri van Zeyst). ... S: I don't believe it's on-line is it? Do you have short extracts you'd care to share? I think you may have quoted one or two before. How about one para a week for discussion? Metta, Sarah p.s Hope you still have water in Cooran! ========= #70048 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Mar 28, 2007 1:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Fwd: Q. Rupas, Ch 4, no 4 nilovg Hi Howard, Correct. The four great Elements condition the derived rúpas (upåda rúpas,the rúpas other than the four great Elements) by way of dependence- condition,but the opposite does not apply. The four great Elements condition the accompanying derived rupas by way of conascent dependence-condition. Colour is conditioned by the accompanying great Elements. Colours are varied, and this is caused by the different compositions of the great Elements that arise together with it. Heat that accompanies colour can be more or less intense. Knowing this may seem theoretical, but it helps us to understand why colours are so different. Because of the seeing of different colours and sa~n~naa that remembers what is seen, we perceive different outlines and perspective, we perceive the contours of people and things. I find that knowing this helps me to understand the difference between seeing and thinking of concepts, between paramattha dhammas and concepts. I find this essential for the development of insight. The three characteristics are characteristics of paramattha dhammas, not of concepts. Nina. Op 27-mrt-2007, om 23:23 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > The derived rupas are > derived from the four great elements in the sense that they co- > occur, with the > derived ones never occuring without the others being present, > though the converse > isn't the case. #70049 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Mar 28, 2007 1:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. : Letters on Vipassana 11, no 2. nilovg Hi James, I would like to leave this whole issue of language, it is now past. A smoke screen? No. See your quote below in the right context: as Jon said before: our akusala is just as worthy an object of mindfulness and understanding as kusala is.All those things have to be seen in the right context. I just read Sarah's post to you where you quoted the three levels of understanding the four noble Truths. Your quote is valuable and Sarah's post is also very clear rendering what Kh. Sujin said and what I referred to. Nina. Op 28-mrt-2007, om 2:15 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > The Buddha's main teaching is that > we should purify our minds, and here is KS saying that we shouldn't > care about how pure our minds are! It doesn't matter how you look at > it, this is a misrepresentation of what the Buddha taught. KS > teaches that we shouldn't "hate" our defilements; well, that doesn't > make any sense because hate is a defilement. Would you > consider "remorse" hating? #70050 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Mar 27, 2007 10:09 pm Subject: What is Advantageous ? bhikkhu5 Friends: What are the 8 Advantageous Kinds of Consciousness? 1: Unprompted consciousness joined with joy and understanding. Example: Knowing merit one spontaneously gives with joy a gift. 2: Prompted consciousness joined with joy and understanding. Example: Knowing merit one, urged by others, gives with joy a gift. 3: Unprompted consciousness with joy, but not understanding. Example: Unaware of merit one spontaneously gives with joy a gift. 4: Prompted consciousness joined with joy, but not understanding. Example: Unaware of merit one, urged on, gives with joy a gift. 5: Unprompted consciousness with equanimity & understanding. Example: Knowing merit one spontaneously gives, yet in indifference. 6: Prompted consciousness joined with equanimity & understanding. Example: Knowing merit one, urged by others, gives in indifference. 7: Unprompted consciousness with equanimity, but no understanding. Example: Unaware of merit one spontaneously gives in indifference. 8: Prompted consciousness with equanimity, but no understanding. Example: Unaware of merit one, urged on, gives in indifference. These are the 8 kinds of Advantageous Consciousness of the Sensuous Sphere (lower worlds). 1 is the best, 8 the lowest. The delayed effect of these is happiness, joy, and pleasure! There are in total 89 kinds of Consciousness, all mapped here: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/DPPN/wtb/table1.htm Source: The Path of Purification XIV 81ff: Visuddhimagga by Ariya Buddhaghosa from the 5th century AC. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=771100 Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Ceylon * <....> #70053 From: connie Date: Wed Mar 28, 2007 4:57 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (47) nichiconn Dear Friends, our sixth installment of Pa.taacaaraa brings us another Dhammapada verse. Satthaa gandhaku.tiya.m nisinnova obhaasa.m pharitvaa tassaa sammukhe .thatvaa kathento viya "evameta.m, pa.taacaare, sabbepime sattaa mara.nadhammaa, tasmaa pa~ncanna.m khandhaana.m udayabbaya.m apassantassa vassasata.m jiivato ta.m passantassa ekaahampi ekakkha.nampi jiivita.m seyyo"ti imamattha.m dassento- "Yo ca vassasata.m jiive, apassa.m udayabbaya.m; ekaaha.m jiivita.m seyyo, passato udayabbayan"ti. (Dha. pa. 113)- Gaathamaaha. The Teacher, seated in the Perfumed Chamber, sent forth his radiance and spoke as if standing face to face with her, showing her the meaning of this, "Pa.taacaaraa, in just the same way, all these beings are subject to death. Therefore, [rather than] living a hundred years not seeing the arising and passing away of the five aggregates, it is better to live for one day while seeing that at the same time." And he spoke this verse: And if anyone were to live a hundred years not seeing arising and passing away, it would be better to live one day seeing arising and passing away. RD: And the Master, seated in the 'Fragrant Chamber,' shed glory around, and appeared as if speaking before her, saying: 'Even so, O Pa.taacaaraa, are all mortals liable to die; therefore is it better to have so lived as to see how the five khandhas come and go, even were it hut for one day - ay, but for one moment - than to live for a hundred years and not see that. 'The man who, living for an hundred years, Beholdeth never how things rise and fall, Had better live no longer than one day, So, in that day, he see the flux of things.' Gaathaapariyosaane pa.taacaaraa saha pa.tisambhidaahi arahatta.m paapu.ni. Tena vutta.m apadaane (apa. therii 2.2.468-511)- "Padumuttaro naama jino, sabbadhammaana paaraguu; ito satasahassamhi, kappe uppajji naayako. "Tadaaha.m ha.msavatiya.m, jaataa se.t.thikule ahu.m; naanaaratanapajjote, mahaasukhasamappitaa. "Upetvaa ta.m mahaaviira.m, assosi.m dhammadesana.m; tato jaatapasaadaaha.m, upesi.m sara.na.m jina.m. "Tato vinayadhaariina.m, agga.m va.n.nesi naayako; bhikkhuni.m lajjini.m taadi.m, kappaakappavisaarada.m. "Tadaa muditacittaaha.m, ta.m .thaanamabhika"nkhinii; nimantetvaa dasabala.m, sasa"ngha.m lokanaayaka.m. At the end of the verse, Pa.taacaaraa attained Arahatship together with the [four] discriminations. As it is said in the Apadaana: One hundred thousand aeons ago, the Conqueror and Leader named Padumuttara, who reached the far shore of all phenomena, was born. At that time, I was born in Ha.msavatii in the family of a wealthy merchant, gleaming with all kinds of jewels, and I enjoyed great happiness. I went to the Great Hero and heard the teaching of the Doctrine. Then faith arose and I went to the Conqueror for refuge. Then the Leader of the World praised a bhikkhunii as foremost as a knower of the discipline, skilled in distinguishing between what is permitted and not permitted, and possessing such qualities as being modest. Then, with a joyful mind, longing for that position, I invited the One of Ten Powers, the Leader of the World, together with the Order. === peace, connie #70054 From: connie Date: Wed Mar 28, 2007 4:58 am Subject: Re: Daana Corner & Vessantara panha nichiconn Dear Friends, Still riding out VESSANTARA'S EARTHQUAKE, we continue: 37. 'Now have you heard, O king, in the history of our faith of any act of devotion being done so as to receive its recompense even in this present life, the fame of which has reached up to the gods?' 'Yes, Lord, I have heard of such. There are seven cases of such actions.' 'Who were the people who did those things?' 'Sumana the garland maker, and Eka-sataka the brahman, and Punna the hired servant, and Mallika the queen, and the queen known as the mother of Gopala, and Suppiya the devoted woman, and Punna the slave-girl. It was these seven who did acts of devotion which bare fruit even in this life, and the fame of which reached even to the gods.' === end extract. [www.sacred-texts.com/bud/sbe35/sbe3512.htm] For the people mentioned above see: == www.palikanon.com/english/pali_names/e/ekasaataka.htm == www.palikanon.com/english/pali_names/pu/punnaa.htm == www.palikanon.com/english/pali_names/ma/mallikaa.htm == www.palikanon.com/english/pali_names/g/gopaalamaataa.htm == www.palikanon.com/english/pali_names/s/sumana.htm {#5. note that he said he had been willing to give up his life when he made his offering of the king's flowers (and his wife's denial that she'd had anything to do with it!)} for the last stop today, your (sick?) tour guide brings you to: == www.palikanon.com/english/pali_names/s/suppiyaa.htm 2. Suppiyaa. An upaasaka of Benares. Her husband was Suppiya, and they were both greatly devoted to the Order. One day, while on a visit to the monastery, Suppiyaa saw a sick monk who needed a meat broth. On her return home, she sent an attendant to fetch meat; but there was none to be had in the whole of Benares. She therefore, with a knife, cut a piece of flesh from her thigh and gave it to her servant to make into soup for the monk. She then went to her room and lay on her bed. When Suppiya returned and discovered what had happened he was overjoyed, and, going to the monastery, invited the Buddha to a meal the next day. The Buddha accepted the invitation, and when, on the next day, he arrived with his monks, he asked for Suppiyaa. On hearing that she was ill, he desired that she be brought to see him. At the moment when the Buddha saw her wound was healed, covered with good skin, on which grew fine hairs as on the rest of her body. It was as a result of this incident that the Buddha lay down a rule forbidding monks to eat human flesh, even when willingly given (Vin.i.216f). Suppiyaa is given as an example of one whose good deeds bore fruit in this very life (Mil.115; cf.291). She was declared by the Buddha foremost among women who waited on the sick (A.i.26), an eminence she had resolved to win in the time of Padumuttara Buddha. AA.i.244f.; she is mentioned in a list of eminent women lay disciples (A.iv.348). ================= rest stop! connie #70055 From: han tun Date: Wed Mar 28, 2007 5:00 am Subject: Daana Corner (28) hantun1 Dear Dhamma Friends, This is taken from “Giving in the Pali Canon” by Lily de Silva. Lily de Silva wrote the essay in the following sub-headings: *Functions of Giving* *Qualities of the Donor* *The Donations* *The Donee* *The Motivation of Giving* *The Manner of Giving* *The Value of Giving* The following is “The Value of Giving” (4 of 5 parts) Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ------------------------------ The Ghatikara Sutta (M.ii,52) records a unique almsgiving where even the donor was not present. Chatikara the potter was the chief benefactor of the Buddha Kassapa. He was a non-returner who did not want to enter the Order as he was looking after his blind, aged parents. He had greatly won the trust of the Buddha by the nobility of his conduct and devotion. One day the Buddha Kassapa went to his house on his alms round but Ghatikara was out. He asked the blind parents where the potter had gone. They replied that he had gone out, but invited the Buddha to serve himself from the pots and pans and partake of a meal. The Buddha did so. When Ghatikara returned and inquired who had taken from the food, the parents informed him that the Buddha had come and they had requested him to help himself to a meal. Ghatikara was overjoyed to hear this as he felt that the Buddha had so much trust in him. It is said that the joy and happiness (pitisukha) he experienced did not leave him for two weeks, and the parents' joy and happiness did not wane for a whole week. The same sutta reports that on another occasion the roof of the Buddha Kassapa's monastery started leaking. He sent the monks to Ghatikara's house to fetch some straw, but Ghatikara was out at the time. Monks came back and said that there was no straw available there except what was on the roof. The Buddha asked the monks to get the straw from the roof there. Monks started stripping the straw from the roof and the aged parents of Ghatikara asked who was removing the straw. The monks explained the matter and the parents said, "Please do take all the straw." When Ghatikara heard about this he was deeply moved by the trust the Buddha reposed in him. The joy and happiness that arose in him did not leave him for a full fortnight and that of his parents did not subside for a week. For three months Ghatikara's house remained without a roof with only the sky above, but it is said that the rain did not wet the house. Such was the great piety and generosity of Ghatikara. “The Value of Giving” to be continued. with metta, Han #70056 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Mar 28, 2007 6:09 am Subject: Rupas Ch 5, no 1. nilovg Dear friends, Chapter 5 Subtle Rúpas produced by Kamma The objects that can be experienced through the sense-doors and also the sense-organs themselves are gross rúpas, the other rúpas are subtle rúpas. The sense-organs are produced solely by kamma, not by the other three factors of citta, temperature and nutrition which can produce rúpas. There are also subtle rúpas which are produced solely by kamma. They are: the femininity-faculty, the masculinity-faculty, the life-faculty and the heart-base. With regard to the femininity-faculty (itthindriyaÿ) and the masculinity-faculty (purisindriyaÿ), collectively called bhåvarúpa or sex, these are rúpas produced by kamma from the first moment of our life and throughout life. Thus, it is due to kamma whether one is born as a male or as a female. The “Atthasåliní” (II, Book II, Part I, Ch III, 322) explains that birth as a male and birth as a female are different kinds of vipåka. Being born as a human being is kusala vipåka, but since good deeds have different degrees also their results have different degrees. Birth as a female is the result of kusala kamma of a lesser degree than the kusala kamma that conditions birth as a male. In the course of life one can notice the difference between the status of men and that of women. It is a fact that in society generally men are esteemed higher than women. Usually women cannot so easily obtain a position of honour in society. But as regards the development of wisdom, both men and women can develop it and attain arahatship. We read in the “Kindred Sayings” (IV, Saîåyatana-vagga, Part III, Kindred Sayings about Womankind, 3, § 34, Growth): Increasing in five growths, monks, the ariyan woman disciple increases in the ariyan growth, takes hold of the essential, takes hold of the better. What five? She grows in confidence (saddhå), grows in virtue (síla), in learning, in generosity, in wisdom. Making such growth, monks, she takes hold of the essential, she takes hold of the better.... ******** Nina #70057 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Mar 28, 2007 6:18 am Subject: Letters on Vipassana 11, no 5 nilovg Dear friends, At the moment there is right understanding of realities there is no clinging to “my kusala”. However, we usually cling, we want to be “the good person”. We find that it feels better to have kusala citta, and then there is clinging again. When we observe the five precepts or eight precepts, there is likely to be clinging, do we want to be better than others who do not observe precepts? When we think of the development of mettå, we may be wondering how much mettå we have already, we may try to “measure” it. Then we are again thinking of “my kusala”, instead of developing mettå. We should not underestimate the accumulation of defilements. We do not notice the lobha that clings to “self”, that wants the “self” to be good. Khun Sujin remarked that when there is no understanding there is lobha. When we try to have mettå instead of anger, is there clinging to “self”? Jonothan said that when he is about to lose his temper he tries to be patient. It is unpleasant for the people around oneself if one gives in to anger. We may see that anger is useless and then sati can arise which prevents the arising of anger. There is no “self“ who tries, but sati which performs its function. This is one level of sati but it is not sati of satipatthåna accompanying paññå which sees realities as nåma and rúpa, not self. When there is wrong view of self who tries to stop anger it does not work. Khun Sujin remarked: “One should not cling to the idea of ‘I have lots of anger, I try not to have it.’ Then there is only thinking with the idea of self all the time. I don’t mind what level of akusala will arise, even if it is strong anger. It arises and then it is gone, it cannot stay. What about the present moment? I always encourage people to have right understanding instead of trying to control with the idea of self. If that is the case they will never reach the level of understanding realities, not even understanding based on reflection about nåma and rúpa. There can be awareness of anger you have talked about a great deal. When it arises and performs its function it is there for you to see its characteristic as ‘a reality’, instead of thinking about it.” Sarah was wondering whether it would not be useful sometimes to set rules for one’s behaviour. She was wondering how one can correct unwholesome speech. Khun Sujin reminded her that whatever one is doing or not doing, it is not self. Don’t we forget that all the time? We know that we have not eradicated the clinging to the idea of “self”, but we do not realize how deeply rooted wrong view is. Khun Sujin said: “Even when one wants to set rules there is no self, it is only thinking. The only way to get rid of the self is to understand all situations. One should not set any rules, there should only be development of understanding of realities. Unwholesome speech can be corrected by paññå which sees its danger and that is one level of sati. Another level is sati of satipatthåna. The most precious moment is the moment of being aware. If one forces oneself, sets rules or clings to a certain practice it does not help one to understand this moment, one’s thinking, seeing or hearing.” ******* Nina. #70059 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Mar 28, 2007 2:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Re: Rupas. Introduction, 1.vipassana ~naa.na. upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 3/28/07 3:23:39 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > Back to yr post #69801 and thx for your further comments. > > --- upasaka@... wrote: > >>--- upasaka@... wrote: > >>Whatever is not present but is nonetheless object of > >>>awareness is > >>>either merely thought of or is remembered, making it pa~n~natti. > >>..... > >>S: So does this mean you're saying either: > >> > >>a) the object of satipatthana, a paramattha dhamma, can only be a > >rupa. > >>Furthermore, the rupa can only be the object in the sense-door > >process. > > > >---------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > No. First of all, I believe that wisdom is needed to see through > >concepts, which includes observing the thinking process. > ... > S: Yes, there can be understanding and awareness of thinking. But above, > you were suggesting awareness of panatti too, I thought. > ... > >Secondly, as > >fas I have > >beend [Howard Correction: as far as I have been led] to understand, the > rupa persists into the following mind-door > >process - > >the same rupa. > ... > S: Actually not. Take visible object as an example. It can only last for > the duration of the 17 cittas in the eye-door process. Without eye-base as > a condition, it cannot be experienced. However, its characteristic is > directly experienced by the succeeding mind-door process. In this way it > is the paramattha dhamma of visible object which is experienced by the > mind-door process. --------------------------------------------- Howard: What is that "characteristic" that is said to be directly experienced? What precise sort of paramattha dhamma? I strongly question its being a paramattha dhamma. As far as I'm concerned, when any rupa, has ceased, it is no more the object of consciousness. As to what is, I believe it is either concept or memory. More serious, though, is the matter of namas. It is clear to me that a nama can *never*, itself, be the object of conciousness. For a nama to be object of consciousness, there would be two or more objects existent at the same time. ------------------------------------------- > .... > >-------------------------------------- > > > >> > >>or b), the other objects of satipatthana -- any namas or rupas > >experienced > >>in the subsequent mind-door process -- must be pannatti, i.e that > >which is > >>'merely thought of or is remembered'. > > > >---------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > Again, "no" as regards rupas. However, as regards consciousness > >of > >namas, I would say "yes". > .... > S: For rupas, see above. So for namas, you're saying that in the > development of satipatthana, only concepts are ever known? I think the > Buddha taught about the knowing of the 'real', not the 'unreal'. ------------------------------------------ Howard: I'm saying that a mental operation that is no longer existent cannot be the object of consciousness, and that while it is in effect it cannot be the object of consciousness for another object is present, and thus it is never, ever the object of consciousness - and when not the object of citta, it is also not the object of any cetasika either. It is your assertion and belief, not mine, nor that of the Buddha of the suttas, that wisdom only pertains to paramattha dhammas. To know for example, to truly know, the relative unreality of compounded, conventional phenomena, an unreality far exceeding that implied by the contingent status of paramattha dhammas, requires knowing those conventional phenomena with wisdom. Seeing through them still requires seeing them with wisdom. To give mundane analogies, just for the purpose of getting the sense of this: 1) Experiencing oxygen and hydrogen does not yet enable experiencing water. 2) Knowing the people in a group does not yet give insight into the behavior of the group. 3) Seeing the individual trees in a forest is not yet seeing the forest. 4) Seeing a water molecule does not enable seeing water flow. 5) The Sangha is more than the individual monks. In general, the whole is different from the sum of its parts, even though it is utterly dependent on them. -------------------------------------------------- > ... > >When nama A is in action, it has an object, > >AO. When a > >subsequent nama, S, that "has A as object" is in action, A is no longer > >in > >existence, AO is no longer an object, and the current nama, S, takes as > >object a > >simulation of A that is conceptually projected or recalled. The object > >is > >pa~n~natti, though one that is very faithful replica. > .... > S: We agree, except I understand the texts to be referring to this as a > paramattha dhamma, not pannatti. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: WHAT paramattha dhamma, in what khandha, and of what exact nature? ---------------------------------------------- > ... > > When A is gone, it is gone. If that is a problem with regard to > >the > >axiom that wisdom only deals with paramattha dhammas, so be it. > .... > S: I think it is only a problem for those who consider that paramattha > dhammas therefore cannot ever be experienced, even by a Buddha! --------------------------------------------- Howard: I have no idea why you would say that. I believe we observe paramattha dhammas all the time, but only rupas! But I do NOT believe anyone can experience what is non-existent. Some folks will say that we certainly directly experience vedana. I say that we do not. When we "experience pleasantness", what is happening is, to use agency terminology, that vedana is feeling an object as pleasant. There is an affective mode of experiencing occurring, but that experiencing is not the object of consciousness. Afterwards, right afterwards, there is the reflective knowing of that feeling, but at that time the feeling is no longer operative and is not a direct object. ----------------------------------------- > ... > >Facts > >are facts, > >gone is gone, and when facts cause problems for our premisses, we need > >to > >check our premisses. > .... > S: I agree and I'm quite happy with the premise used in the texts! --------------------------------------- Howard: Then you must understand it well enough to explain how one experiences what does not exist. ---------------------------------------- > > [CMA, ch3, #17 may be useful). > > Metta, > > Sarah > p.s this is a good discussion, but I'm likely to be even slower in > responding.....:-) > ====================== With metta, Howard #70060 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Mar 28, 2007 6:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Agreeable and Disagreeable jonoabb Hi Larry Larry wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > >> Hi Larry >> >> Larry wrote: >> >>> Hi Scott, >>> >>> This is a little misleading because "intrinsically agreeable or disagreeable" >>> is conventional in the sense that it is what most mature responsible worldly >>> people (merchants, lawyers, etc.) consider to be agreeable and disagreeable, >>> e.g., fame, wealth, beauty, health or their opposites. >>> >> I've never seen this said. Are you quoting from something here? >> > Hi Jon, > > See page 172, CMA: "The Sammohavinodanii states that the distinction between the > intrinsically desirale and undesirable obtains by way of the average man (majjhima-satta): > "It is distinguishable according to what is found desirable at one time and undesirable at > another time by average (men such as) accountants, government officials, burgesses, land > owners and merchants." " > Thanks for the CMA reference. However, I don't think it says quite what you suggest. Earlier on the same page it says: "According to the Abhidhamma philosophy, this distinction in the quality of objects [J: into 3 classes] pertains to the intrinsic nature of the object itself ..." The passage from the Sammohavinodanii, as I understand it, simply confirms that what amounts to, for example, excessively loud in the case of audible object or excessively hot in the case of tactile object is what most people would regard as such. Not a matter of values of any kind. > The idea that kamma is supported by conventional views is further supported by the > doctrine that once arahantship is attained and ultimate reality is completely penetrated, no > more kamma is generated. > We are also told that it is the total eradication of ignorance and all kilesa that makes the difference here. So I suppose it means what you have in mind by 'conventional views'. Jon #70061 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Mar 28, 2007 6:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Daana Corner (25) jonoabb Hi James buddhatrue wrote: > Hi Jon, > > This seems to be a favorite topic of yours (?). I can recall > discussing it with you on more than one occasion. > And a favourite of yours too, I think (?). > Jon: My own reservation about the use of 'meditation' as a translation > of the > Pali term 'bhavana' is that it carries connotations that the Pali doesn't. > > James: What sort of connotations are you concerned about? I'm referring to connotations as to (a) method or technique and (b) subject-matter carried by 'meditation' that 'development' does not carry. > James: The word "development" isn't a simple word. It has many > meanings, both denotative and connotative: ... > Thanks for the dictionary quotes (now snipped). The primary meaning of 'development' is something like 'enlarging' or 'increasing', whereas the primary meaning of 'meditation' is something like 'spiritual contemplation'. > Jon: Etymologically, there seems to be no connection between > 'meditation' and 'bhavana'. > > James: Well, this statement seems to be very impressive, but I don't > think you have the expertise to back it up. Are you an etymologist > with extensive knowledge in Pali etymology and English etymology? As > far as I know, you are a business lawyer. But maybe you have studied > the findings of such etymologists? If so, then present their findings > here; I would be quite interested, and would be willing to change my > viewpoint. I don't cling to words. I readily admit to no expertise ;-)). Perhaps we should ask someone like Ven Dhammanando to give his views as a Pali and Tipitaka expert. Would you like to send off a quick post to him? > Jon: Do you see any problem with 'development' in the contexts you > mention above? > > James: No, I don't see any problem with using the word "development" > either. As I stated, they are both equally vague. Let's take a look: > Metta Development > Samatha Development > Vipassana Development > > OR > > Metta Meditation > Samatha Meditation > Vipassana Meditation > > Yeah, they both seem equally vague to me. "Development" has a > somewhat more secular connotation (like building something) than > "Meditation" which has a somewhat more spiritual connotation (like > contemplating some deep subject), but they are still both vague. I > would have to study the Buddha's teachings to know what these words > really meant. > Good analysis, James. But consider also the following references to bhavana quoted by Han in his recent Daana Corner post (no. 27): - indriya-bhavana (which is translated as 'the development of the spiritual faculties') - bala-bhavana (the development of the spiritual powers) - bojjhanga-bhavana (the development of the factors of enlightenment) Would you say that 'meditation' was a feasible translation for bhavana here also? Jon #70062 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Mar 28, 2007 7:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Letters on Vipassana 11, no 2. jonoabb Hi Howard (and Nina) I've been following this thread with interest. Hope you don't mind if I come in with an observation or two. upasaka@... wrote: > Hi, Nina - > ... > > ========================= > I agree that clear and direct understanding of defilements, as for all > phenomena, is the key. However, clarity of understanding needs to be > cultivated. Also, the defilements are, in fact, exactly that: defilements, and to be > uprooted, and this requires action. On the way to uprooting defilements, kusala > states are to be encouraged and akusala discouraged. > You seem to be suggesting an order of things whereby 'uprooting of defilements' precedes the development of awareness/insight. But as I understand the teachings, only developed insight of the level of path consciousness (magga citta) can actually uproot (= eradicate) defilements. Any development of kusala short of awareness/insight (the highest form of kusala) can lead only to a greater kusala vs aksuala ratio, but not to a diminution in the accumulated aksuala tendencies. > What, after all, are the > four right efforts all about? The definition is as follows: > > "And what, monks, is right effort? > [i] "There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, activates > persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of > evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen. > [ii] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts > his intent for the sake of the abandonment of evil, unskillful qualities that > have arisen. > [iii] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & > exerts his intent for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not > yet arisen. > [iv] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts > his intent for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, > development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen: This, monks, is > called right effort."— SN 45.8 > When there is a moment of awareness of a presently arisen dhamma, the consciousness is kusala and it is accompanied by right effort. In particular, when the object of the awareness is kusala or akusala consciousness that is also presently arising (i.e., the awareness is intermingled with present kusala or aksuala) then there is either the arising and maintaining of skilful qualities or the non-arising and abandoning of skilfulness qualities, as mentioned in the definition of right effort. The development of kusala qualities (short of awareness/insight) in lieu of akusala ones is of course to be encouraged. But although the the ratio of accumulated kusala vs accumulated akusala tendencies may increase, it will not directly lead to the uprooting of the defilements, since the same accumulated akusala tendencies remain ready to manifest again given the opportunity. > To say “Should we hate our akusala? It is just a reality, it arisesâ€? > sounds very "Zen" ;-), but even the most "Zen" of Zen masters will say that > nothing comes from nothing. The Buddha did not recommend passivity with regard > to kusala and akusala states, but proactiveness. The material "We should just > develop understanding of whatever reality appears. At the moment of developing > understanding one is not carried away by thoughts about the amount of one’s > defilements, wondering about it how many defilements one has or whether they are > decreasing. Just be aware instantly!" is rather amusing to me, especially the > last sentence! Just do it, huh? It reminds me of Nancy Reagan's answer to > drug addiction, "Just say no!" I don't quite understand your objection to the idea of awareness without regard to whether the present consciousness is kusala or aksuala. How does it contradict, or how is it not supported by, the teachings, in your view? > The difficulty in just being aware "instantly" of > the defilements is exactly the defilements, themselves!! They need to be weak > ened in order to be clearly aware of them, and that weakening is accomplished > by the four right efforts, by sila bhavana in general, and by meditative > bhavana. > The idea that defilements need to be weakened first in order for the development of awareness (whether awareness of those defilements or awareness of any other dhamma) to begin or to proceed may sound 'reasonable', but is it what the Buddha taught? If so, at what stage of weakening of defilements does the development of awareness first start to kick in, and how is this whole notion expressed in the suttas, as you see it? > Nothing comes from nothing, and that includes cultivation of mindfulness > and insight. > Correct. One of the necessary conditions for the cultivate of mindfulness and insight, and the most fundamental, is the hearing of the teachings (which explains the importance of association with those who have a better understanding of the teachings than ourselves). Of course, the mere hearing of the teachings alone is not sufficient, and no-one here has ever suggested it is, but it is a necessary part of the development of the path both in the beginning and throughout until enlightenment. Jon #70063 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Mar 28, 2007 3:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Fwd: Q. Rupas, Ch 4, no 4 upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 3/28/07 3:39:30 AM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > Correct. The four great Elements condition the derived rúpas (upåda > rúpas,the rúpas other than the four great Elements) by way of > dependence- > condition,but the opposite does not apply. > ============================ Thank you, Nina. Your entire post is clear to me. :-) With metta, Howard #70064 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Mar 28, 2007 4:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Letters on Vipassana 11, no 2. upasaka_howard Hi, Jon (and Nina) - In a message dated 3/28/07 9:22:16 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonabbott@... writes: > Hi Howard (and Nina) > > I've been following this thread with interest. Hope you don't mind if I > come in with an observation or two. > > upasaka@... wrote: > >Hi, Nina - > >... > > > >========================= > > I agree that clear and direct understanding of defilements, as for all > >phenomena, is the key. However, clarity of understanding needs to be > >cultivated. Also, the defilements are, in fact, exactly that: defilements, > and to be > >uprooted, and this requires action. On the way to uprooting defilements, > kusala > >states are to be encouraged and akusala discouraged. > > > > You seem to be suggesting an order of things whereby 'uprooting of > defilements' precedes the development of awareness/insight. But as I > understand the teachings, only developed insight of the level of path > consciousness (magga citta) can actually uproot (= eradicate) defilements. > > Any development of kusala short of awareness/insight (the highest form > of kusala) can lead only to a greater kusala vs aksuala ratio, but not > to a diminution in the accumulated aksuala tendencies. ---------------------------------- Howard: As you know, Jon, see "progress" as a spiral development. I won't repeat that here, but perhaps this mention may be sufficient for you to understand my perspective. ---------------------------------- > > >What, after all, are the > >four right efforts all about? The definition is as follows: > > > >"And what, monks, is right effort? > >[i] "There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, activates > >persistence, upholds &exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of > >evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen. > >[ii] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & > exerts > >his intent for the sake of the abandonment of evil, unskillful qualities > that > >have arisen. > >[iii] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & > >exerts his intent for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that > have not > >yet arisen. > >[iv] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & > exerts > >his intent for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, > >development, &culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen: This, > monks, is > >called right effort."— SN 45.8 > > > > When there is a moment of awareness of a presently arisen dhamma, the > consciousness is kusala and it is accompanied by right effort. > ------------------------------ Howard: The Buddha was specific as to what right effort is. Which of the four right efforts *must* be in effect when aware of a dhamma? Also, by "aware" are you referring to sati? ------------------------------ In > > particular, when the object of the awareness is kusala or akusala > consciousness that is also presently arising (i.e., the awareness is > intermingled with present kusala or aksuala) then there is either the > arising and maintaining of skilful qualities or the non-arising and > abandoning of skilfulness qualities, as mentioned in the definition of > right effort. ------------------------------- Howard: I think that is false. It just does not fit with what the Buddha actually said, namely: "And what, monks, is right effort? [i] "There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen. [ii] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the abandonment of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen. [iii] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen. [iv] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen: This, monks, is called right effort." -------------------------------------------------- > > The development of kusala qualities (short of awareness/insight) in lieu > of akusala ones is of course to be encouraged. But although the the > ratio of accumulated kusala vs accumulated akusala tendencies may > increase, it will not directly lead to the uprooting of the defilements, > since the same accumulated akusala tendencies remain ready to manifest > again given the opportunity. > > > To say “Should we hate our akusala? It is just a reality, it arisesâ€? > >sounds very "Zen" ;-), but even the most "Zen" of Zen masters will say that > > >nothing comes from nothing. The Buddha did not recommend passivity with > regard > >to kusala and akusala states, but proactiveness. The material "We should > just > >develop understanding of whatever reality appears. At the moment of > developing > >understanding one is not carried away by thoughts about the amount of one’s > > >defilements, wondering about it how many defilements one has or whether > they are > >decreasing. Just be aware instantly!" is rather amusing to me, especially > the > >last sentence! Just do it, huh? It reminds me of Nancy Reagan's answer to > >drug addiction, "Just say no!" > > I don't quite understand your objection to the idea of awareness without > regard to whether the present consciousness is kusala or aksuala. How > does it contradict, or how is it not supported by, the teachings, in > your view? -------------------------------- Howard: You seem to be missing my point, Jon. One extreme is that there is no control at all, an extreme often expressed here. Another is that whatever one wishes to do, just do it! It was this latter extreme I was takiing aim at. We cannot "just be aware instantly"'. What we can do is willfully take baby steps, bringing about "small", preliminary conditions which, together, eventually lead to more significant results, transforming the mind (i.e. mental functioning) so that "just being aware instantly" does become the norm. ----------------------------------- > > >The difficulty in just being aware "instantly" of > >the defilements is exactly the defilements, themselves!! They need to be > weak > >ened in order to be clearly aware of them, and that weakening is > accomplished > >by the four right efforts, by sila bhavana in general, and by meditative > >bhavana. > > > > The idea that defilements need to be weakened first in order for the > development of awareness (whether awareness of those defilements or > awareness of any other dhamma) to begin or to proceed may sound > 'reasonable', but is it what the Buddha taught? > ------------------------------------------ Howard: Yes. That is what the entirety of Dhamma practice is about. ------------------------------------------ If so, at what stage of > > weakening of defilements does the development of awareness first start > to kick in, and how is this whole notion expressed in the suttas, as you > see it? --------------------------------------- Howard: Sorry, Jon - much too much for me to attempt to embark on. Remember the old TV show, Mission Impossible? ;-)) --------------------------------------- > > >Nothing comes from nothing, and that includes cultivation of mindfulness > >and insight. > > > > Correct. One of the necessary conditions for the cultivate of > mindfulness and insight, and the most fundamental, is the hearing of the > teachings (which explains the importance of association with those who > have a better understanding of the teachings than ourselves). > ----------------------------------- Howard: A point never disputed by me. ------------------------------------ Of > > course, the mere hearing of the teachings alone is not sufficient, and > no-one here has ever suggested it is, but it is a necessary part of the > development of the path both in the beginning and throughout until > enlightenment. -------------------------------------- Howard: No, Jon, it is repeatedly suggested as sufficient. In fact it is asserted to be the case. It is said to be "the only way". --------------------------------------- > > Jon > ===================== With metta, Howard #70065 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Mar 28, 2007 11:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Re: Rupas. Introduction, 1.vipassana ~naa.na. nilovg Hi Howard, may I butt in, because I think here may be the crux of a problem coming up all the time: when nama , say a citta or cetasika that is just passed could not be the object of sati and pa~n~naa arising in a following process then it would not be possible to be aware of akusala or kusala and we would continue to take these for self. I just point out the problem here. Can the satipatthanasutta, under mindfulness of feelings, cittas, dhammas not clarify this dilemma? I do not want to debate now, but this is just a suggestion. Nina. Op 28-mrt-2007, om 15:26 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > I believe we observe paramattha > dhammas all the time, but only rupas! But I do NOT believe anyone can > experience what is non-existent. > Some folks will say that we certainly directly experience vedana. I > say that we do not. #70066 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Mar 28, 2007 8:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Re: Rupas. Introduction, 1.vipassana ~naa.na. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - Thank you for providing your input. I also have no desire at all to *debate* the matter. I do have a comment or two to insert below. In a message dated 3/28/07 1:32:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > may I butt in, because I think here may be the crux of a problem > coming up all the time: when nama , say a citta or cetasika that is > just passed could not be the object of sati and pa~n~naa arising in a > following process then it would not be possible to be aware of > akusala or kusala and we would continue to take these for self. ------------------------------------------ Howard: No, I don't think so, Nina. Right after a nama has been in effect and is now gone, I believe a perfectly faithful mind-produced replica would be present and examinable - what I call "fresh memory". In facti think this is normally the case. Not only would that replica be present for examination, but also recollection of various other features of the prior mindstate would be available. Just as there can be a review following upon path consciousness, there can be clear review of ordinary mental operations. We can know that what just occured was wholesome or unwholesome as the case may be without the operation still being in effect. But there cannot be direct, current consciousness of the literal nama that no longer exists - it is impossible for something that is non-existent to be existent as object of consciousness or for any other purpose. Gone is gone. Anicca is for real. -------------------------------------------- > I just point out the problem here. Can the satipatthanasutta, under > mindfulness of feelings, cittas, dhammas not clarify this dilemma? > I do not want to debate now, but this is just a suggestion. -------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't understand what the suggestion is, Nina. I would like to, because I would be quite satisfied to hear of an explanation that allowed for what you are suggesting. I'm not interested in opinion here, Nina. Neither mine nor yours nor anyone else's. I'm just interested in getting a grasp on the facts. I couldn't care less about "being right", especially on this issue. I'm looking for the facts - that's all. But countenancing an outright logical contradiction (what is not present being present) could not be part of a proper solution. -------------------------------------------- > Nina. ====================== With metta, Howard #70068 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Mar 28, 2007 5:11 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Daana Corner (25) buddhatrue Hi Jon, We could keep going round and round on this issue- let's just cut to the chase. It doesn't really matter to me if you translate bhavana as mental development or as meditation; as long as it contains these two factors I am satisfied: "And what is the faculty of mindfulness? There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, is mindful, highly meticulous, remembering & able to call to mind even things that were done & said long ago. He remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings in & of themselves... the mind in & of itself... mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. This is called the faculty of mindfulness. "And what is the faculty of concentration? There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, making it his object to let go, attains concentration, attains singleness of mind. Quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, he enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. With the fading of rapture he remains in equanimity, mindful & alert, and physically sensitive of pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is called the faculty of concentration. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn48/sn48.010.than.html#sat i Metta, James #70074 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Mar 28, 2007 6:25 pm Subject: Re: Letters on Vipassana 11, no 5 buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > "Even when one wants to set rules there is no self, it is only > thinking. The only way to get rid of the self is to understand all > situations. One should not set any rules, there should only be > development of understanding of realities. What about the Vinaya? Metta, James #70078 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Wed Mar 28, 2007 7:15 pm Subject: Defilements: can there be awareness of them? rjkjp1 In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > > In a message dated 3/25/07 9:45:58 AM Eastern Standard Time, > vangorko@... writes: Should we hate our akusala? It is just a reality, it arises, Khun Sujin reminded Sarah and Jonothan while they were in Bangkok. They recorded their conversations with Khun Sujin and I shall give an > account of the contents of these tapes. > Khun Sujin explained that she does not think that she should get rid > of ALL defilements now. She remarked: > > > I do not think,˜defilements are so ugly" they are just realities. > There should be understanding of them. People want to get rid of all > > defilements but they do not have any understanding of them. Why > > should our FIRST objective not be right understanding? __________________ Howard: The Buddha did not recommend passivity with regard > to kusala and akusala states, but proactiveness. The material "We should just > develop understanding of whatever reality appears. At the moment of developing > understanding one is not carried away by thoughts about the amount of one’s > defilements, wondering about it how many defilements one has or whether they are > decreasing. Just be aware instantly!" is rather amusing to me, especially the > last sentence! Just do it, huh? _________ Dear Howard I am trying to understand your strong objections to understanding defilements. I think you find comments by Khun Sujin or Nina unhelpful, so perhaps we could look at what the Buddha said. Venerable Upavanna was one of the Buddha's attendants before Ananda. He asked the Buddha (Samyutta, Salayanata Vagga 70 p.1154 Bodhi) QUOTE Upavana: "In what way is the Dhamma directly visible (sanditthiko Dhamma), immediate…to be personally experienced by the wise? Buddha: Here, Upavana, having seen a form with the eye a bhikkhu experiences the form as well as lust for the form. He understands that lust for the forms exists internally thus: `there is in me lust for forms internally.' Since that is so Upavana the Dhamma is directly visible, immediate…" The sutta repeats for the other senses. This sutta is about the development of satiptthan vipassana. The way of samatha is to overcome and suppress the hindrances especially craving. The way of vipassana is to understand the present moment – even if that is craving. When craving or any hindrance is known as anatta, a little bit of ignorance is overcome: the conditioned nature of craving is seen. In the Satipatthana Sutta under Dhammanupassana the five hindrances are objects for insight. From the commentary: QUOTE "In this way the bhikkhu lives contemplating the mental objects, by laying hold of the five hindrances amongst the mental objects of his own mind or amongst the mental objects in another's mind or at one time amongst the mental objects of his own mind, and at another time amongst the mental objects of another's mind.[ ……]Here the mindfulness which lays hold of the hindrances is the Truth of Suffering. Thus the portal of deliverance of the bhikkhu who lays hold of the hindrances should be understood" http://www.abhidhamma.org/commentaryDhamma.htm Robert #70086 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Mar 28, 2007 8:05 pm Subject: Re: Agreeable and Disagreeable scottduncan2 Dear Larry, Sorry again for the delay, and apologies that I can't see this as you do... S: "Just to clarify, are you saying that the difference between agreeable and disagreeable, as noted in the Dispeller... '...The agreeable and disagreeable are distinguishable according to [kamma-] result (vipaaka) only, not according to impulsion (javana). But it is impulsion through perversion of perception (sa~n~navipallasa) only that lusts for the agreeable or hates the same agreeable, that lusts for the disagreeable or hates the same disagreeable.' ...is one determined by mundane consensus?" L: "Yes. That is what I am saying." Scott: I read the text differently. The reference to 'average men' seems to be in a section which is elucidating the argument (spurious) that is refuted by the quote attributed to Elder Tipi.taka Cuula-Abhaya. The 'average men' argument has it that 'such are able to distinguish between the agreeable and disagreeable' and this is clarified: '[i.e. it is distinguishable according to the average man's impulsion].' So it is 'by impulsion' that the average man distinquishes agreeable and disagreeable. The Elder is clear, as I read it, when he notes that these qualities are distinguishable according to [kamma-]result (vipaaka) only, not according to impulsion (javana).' To me, this negates the erroneous argument that it is the 'average man' who makes the distinction. L: "...The agreeable and disagreeable isn't a moment of consciousness. It is a cultural or situational value, an aggregate of many vipaka cittas and kamma produced rupas. It is how Canada is different from the US." Scott: Ahetuka-vipaaka-citta is a moment of consciousness - three as I understand it, including sampa.ticchana-citta and santiira.na-citta. These occur prior to javana and have objects which, as I understand it, are agreeable or disagreeable, not according to the judgement based on impulsion, but due to kamma and kamma-result; that is, prior to javana. Have I missed something? Please help me clarify this if you will. Sincerely, Scott. #70098 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Mar 28, 2007 9:58 pm Subject: What is Disadvantageous ? bhikkhu5 Friends: What are the 12 Detrimental Kinds of Consciousness? Rooted in Greed: 1: Unprompted consciousness joined with joy and false view. Example: Greedy & careless one spontaneously enjoys sense pleasure. 2: Prompted consciousness joined with joy and false view. Ex: Greedy & careless one urged by others enjoys sense pleasure. 3: Unprompted consciousness with joy, but not false view. Ex: Greedy, yet not careless one spontaneously enjoys sense pleasure. 4: Prompted consciousness joined with joy, but not false view. Ex: Greedy, though not careless one urged on enjoys sense pleasure. 5: Unprompted consciousness with equanimity & false view. Ex: Greedy & careless one spontaneously indifferent takes pleasure. 6: Prompted consciousness joined with equanimity & false view. Ex: Greedy & careless one, urged on, yet indifferent takes pleasure. 7: Unprompted consciousness with equanimity, but no false view. Ex: Greedy, not careless one spontaneously & bored takes pleasure. 8: Prompted consciousness with equanimity, but no false view. Ex: Greedy, not careless, one urged on, takes pleasure not enjoying. The common false view is here: There is no danger in sense pleasure! Addicted to sensing, beings have been drawn back into birth & death billions of times & thus killed by this sense pleasure billions of times! Sense pleasure is therefore the most dangerous of all serial killers! Rooted in Hate: 9: Unprompted consciousness joined with sorrow and aversion. Example: Angry & frustrated one spontaneously harms or kills. 10: Prompted consciousness joined with sorrow and aversion. Ex: Angry & frustrated one, urged on by others, harms or kills. Rooted in Confusion: 11: Consciousness joined with indifference, doubt, and uncertainty. Ex: Confused one cannot make up one's mind nor take any decision. 12: Consciousness joined with indifference, and restless agitation. Ex: Confused one remains distracted, scattered, and unsettled. These are the 12 kinds of Disadvantageous Consciousness of the Sensuous Sphere (lower worlds). Delayed effect of these is Pain! There are in total 89 kinds of Consciousness, all mapped here: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/DPPN/wtb/table1.htm Source: The Path of Purification XIV 81ff: Visuddhimagga by Ariya Buddhaghosa from the 5th century AC. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=771100 Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Ceylon * <. . .> #70103 From: Sarah and Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Mar 28, 2007 11:30 pm Subject: Multiple Posts dsgmods All, Apologies for multiple copies of posts that have been appearing on the list over the last couple of days. Yahoo had mentioned some upgrading work, so we suppose it's connected..... We're 'cleaning-up' the surplus copies of posts on the home-page, but unfortunately you'll still be getting them in your in-boxes for the time-being. Jon & Sarah #70109 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Mar 29, 2007 1:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Letters on Vipassana 11, no 5 nilovg Hi James, the rules of the Vinaya set by the Buddha for the wellbeing of the Sangha and many other reasons are of a different purpose. Kh Sujin wanted to point out that a person with clinging to self wants to set rules, like good speech. It is more effective if there is right understanding of the citta when he is speaking. Is the citta kusala or akusala? Is it conditioned or does it belong to a self? Can anyone create kusala citta or akusala citta? Nina. Op 29-mrt-2007, om 3:40 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > "Even when one wants to set rules there is no self, it is only > > thinking. The only way to get rid of the self is to understand all > > situations. One should not set any rules, there should only be > > development of understanding of realities. > > What about the Vinaya? #70111 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Mar 29, 2007 1:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Letters on Vipassana 11, no 2. buddhatrue Hi Jon and Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Hi Howard (and Nina) > > I've been following this thread with interest. Hope you don't mind if I > come in with an observation or two. > > upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Nina - > > ... > > > > ========================= > > I agree that clear and direct understanding of defilements, as for all > > phenomena, is the key. However, clarity of understanding needs to be > > cultivated. Also, the defilements are, in fact, exactly that: defilements, and to be > > uprooted, and this requires action. On the way to uprooting defilements, kusala > > states are to be encouraged and akusala discouraged. > > > > You seem to be suggesting an order of things whereby 'uprooting of > defilements' precedes the development of awareness/insight. But as I > understand the teachings, only developed insight of the level of path > consciousness (magga citta) can actually uproot (= eradicate) defilements. > > Any development of kusala short of awareness/insight (the highest form > of kusala) can lead only to a greater kusala vs aksuala ratio, but not > to a diminution in the accumulated aksuala tendencies. Jon, you write as if you are forgetting one important fact: delusion is a defilement! You are also forgetting another important fact: the cultivation of jhana is a necessary feature of the Buddha's path! It is through jhana that the defilements are supressed: greed, anger, and delusion. It is only when the defilements are supressed that wisdom (panna) can arise to completely erradicate the roots of the defilements. As we have argued many times, and Bhikkhu Bodhi has written about, dry-insight is a fallacy. Metta, James #70112 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Mar 29, 2007 2:07 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Letters on Vipassana 11, no 5 buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi James, > the rules of the Vinaya set by the Buddha for the wellbeing of the > Sangha and many other reasons are of a different purpose. James: I disagree. Those rules are meant to cultivate wisdom. Those rules are a teaching just as the suttas. Kh Sujin > wanted to point out that a person with clinging to self wants to set > rules, like good speech. James: Again, I disagree. The setting of rules is not "clinging to self", it is actually quite the opposite. Rules of conduct are a way to relinquish selfish desires. It is more effective if there is right > understanding of the citta when he is speaking. Is the citta kusala > or akusala? Is it conditioned or does it belong to a self? Can anyone > create kusala citta or akusala citta? James: These questions are completely irrelevant. The Buddha taught the five precepts and said that we must follow them-- no ifs, ands, or buts about it. KS is sounds more and more like some kind of New Age/Zen Hippie. ;-)) Metta, James #70114 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Mar 28, 2007 9:17 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Agreeable and Disagreeable lbidd2 Hi Scott, S: "...apologies that I can't see this as you do..." L: Okay, let's go at it from your end. What is agreeable and disagreeable? Can you give an example? Larry #70115 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Mar 28, 2007 4:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Agreeable and Disagreeable lbidd2 Hi Jon, J: "Thanks for the CMA reference. However, I don't think it says quite what you suggest. Earlier on the same page it says: "According to the Abhidhamma philosophy, this distinction in the quality of objects [J: into 3 classes] pertains to the intrinsic nature of the object itself ..." The passage from the Sammohavinodanii, as I understand it, simply confirms that what amounts to, for example, excessively loud in the case of audible object or excessively hot in the case of tactile object is what most people would regard as such. Not a matter of values of any kind." L: I don't make too much of the distinction "intrinsic". I think it just means not to be confused with javana. And it does seem to me that "desirable and undesirable" is a matter of values. It is what is appropriate according to kusala and akusala. The big difference, as I see it, is that "desirable and undesirable" is relative to time, place, culture, and circumstance, while kusala and akusala is always the same. For example, giving is always giving but the fruit of giving, kusala vipaka citta, may at one time be the experience of a chariot and at another time the experience of a cadillac. However, I suspect you want vipaka citta to have an ultimate reality as object, not a chariot or cadillac. Perhaps this is a case of not seeing the forest for the trees. A chariot or cadillac is just a whole bunch of vipaka cittas. To me it doesn't make much sense to say the fruit of giving is an infinitesimally small moment of formless color. Larry #70117 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Mar 29, 2007 3:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Tribute to Mark: What is Unimportant in the Light of Death sarahprocter... Hi Howard, I meant to write before to thank you for sharing your kind tribute to Mark. --- upasaka@... wrote: > The universe reminds us again and again of impermanence, but we > so > easily forget. Seize the moment. Now is the time to do what needs to be > done - to > do no harm, to do good, and to purify the mind. .... S: Always a helpful reminder and especially at such times, I think. Best wishes to Mark's wife and to all his family and friends including yourselves. Metta, Sarah ======= #70118 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Mar 29, 2007 12:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Defilements: can there be awareness of them? upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 3/28/07 9:17:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, rjkjp1@... writes: > Dear Howard > I am trying to understand your strong objections to understanding > defilements. I think you find comments by Khun Sujin or Nina > unhelpful, so perhaps we could look at what the Buddha said. > Venerable Upavanna was one of the Buddha's attendants before Ananda. > He asked the Buddha (Samyutta, Salayanata Vagga 70 p.1154 Bodhi) > ======================= I already explained what I meant in objecting to "Just be aware instantly". I made it very clear what I meant, and it had nothing to do with objecting to understanding defilements. Of course we should do our best to understand defilements. This is a silly discussion about a straw man. Withj metta, Howard #70119 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Mar 29, 2007 12:24 am Subject: Robert, not Jon! Re: [dsg] Defilements: can there be awareness of them? upasaka_howard Hi, Robert (and Jon) - In a message dated 3/28/07 9:36:54 PM Eastern Standard Time, rjkjp1@... writes: > Dear Howard > I am trying to understand your strong objections to understanding > defilements. I ======================== Sorry. My previous reply should have been addressed to you, Robert. It's just so darn easy on DSG, I find, to forget who one's talking to at times, unless one pays careful attention to the person and not the content! (Just kidding, guys! ;-)) With metta and renewed attention, Howard #70120 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Mar 29, 2007 1:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Re: Rupas. Introduction, 1.vipassana ~naa.na. nilovg Hi Howard, I took this from the Roots of Good and Evil, Ven. Nyanaponika. 31. Removal Through the Contemplation of Feelings In the case of pleasant feelings, O monks, the underlying tendency to lust should be given up; in the case of painful feelings the underlying tendency to resistance (aversion) should be given up; in the case of neutral feelings, the underlying tendency to ignorance should be given up. If a monk has given up the tendency to lust in regard to pleasant feelings, the tendency to resistance in regard to painful feelings and the tendency to ignorance in regard to neutral feelings, then he is called one who is free of unwholesome tendencies, one who has the right outlook. He has uct off craving, severed the fetter to existence, and, through the full penetration of conceit, he has made an end of suffering. If one feels joy, but knows not feeling's nature, Bent towards greed, one will not find deliverance. If one feels pain, but knows not the feeling's nature, Bent towards hate, one will not find deliverance. And even neutral feeling which as peaceful The Lard if Wisdom has proclaimed, If, in attachment, one should cling to it, One will not be free from the round of ill. But if a mink is ardent and does not neglect To practise mindfulness and comprehension clear, The nature of all feelings will be penetrated. And having done so, in this very life He will be free from cankers and all taints. Mature in knowledge, firm in Dhamma's ways, When once his life span ends, his body breaks, All measure and concepts he will transcend. ~ SAMYUTTA NIKAYA, 36: 3 ---------- N: knowing feeling's nature is not thinking about feeling, the story of feeling which I would call a pa~n~natti. Thinking about feeling is not as effective as directly understanding its characteristic. You speak about a perfectly faithful mind-produced replica, but if we leave out the word mind-produced it may be similar to the nimitta we spoke about before. It does not matter what we call it, but can the characteristic of feeling not directly be known right now? We do not think of minutes or seconds, it is shorter than a splitsecond ago. That is different from thinking of an idea, of a concept or story of feeling, the feeling that was there a minute ago. So for all practical purposes, we can still speak of presence of feeling, presence of anger. And what is important, pa~n~na of vipassana is extremely fast, it is not thinking. Upanna, arisen or present. Ven. Nyanaponika, Abh Studies explains p. 118 about different meanings of upanna: momentary present and serial (santati) present. There may be aversion right now. Its characteristic of harshness can be directly known. This is different from the characteristic of metta that is gentle and soft. No need to think about this, it can be known when it occurs. If there would not be direct mindfulness and understanding of nama and rupa, what is the use of the three rounds of knowing the four noble Truths Sarah and James recently referred to? The second noble Truth is lobha and it has to be directly known. Or what is the use of the three of pariyatti, pa.tipatti and pa.tivedha? Nina. Op 28-mrt-2007, om 21:13 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Right after a nama has been in effect and > is now gone, I believe a perfectly faithful mind-produced replica > would be > present and examinable - what I call "fresh memory". In facti think > this is > normally the case. Not only would that replica be present for > examination, but also > recollection of various other features of the prior mindstate would be > available. Just as there can be a review following upon path > consciousness, there > can be clear review of ordinary mental operations. We can know that > what just > occured was wholesome or unwholesome as the case may be without the > operation > still being in effect. But there cannot be direct, current > consciousness of the > literal nama that no longer exists - it is impossible for something > that is > non-existent to be existent as object of consciousness or for any > other purpose. > Gone is gone. Anicca is for real. > -------------------------------------------- > > > I just point out the problem here. Can the satipatthanasutta, under > > mindfulness of feelings, cittas, dhammas not clarify this dilemma? > > -------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I don't understand what the suggestion is, Nina. I would like to, > because I would be quite satisfied to hear of an explanation that > allowed for what > you are suggesting. #70121 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Mar 29, 2007 12:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Tribute to Mark: What is Unimportant in the Light of Death upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 3/29/07 5:58:07 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > I meant to write before to thank you for sharing your kind tribute to > Mark. > > --- upasaka@... wrote: > > The universe reminds us again and again of impermanence, but we > >so > >easily forget. Seize the moment. Now is the time to do what needs to be > >done - to > >do no harm, to do good, and to purify the mind. > .... > S: Always a helpful reminder and especially at such times, I think. > > Best wishes to Mark's wife and to all his family and friends including > yourselves. > > Metta, > > Sarah > =========================== Thank you, Sarah. :-) The funeral is at 11 this morning. It is anticipated with aversion. Ah, well! With metta, Howard #70123 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Mar 29, 2007 2:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Letters on Vipassana 11, no 2. nilovg Hi James. No. Bhikkhu Bodhi explained that as for the stage of the sotapanna and the sakadagami, these can be attained without the cultivation of jhana. Sarah gave us quotes before. Nina Op 29-mrt-2007, om 10:58 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > Bhikkhu Bodhi has written about, > dry-insight is a fallacy. #70124 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Mar 29, 2007 5:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Letters on Vipassana 11, no 2. buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi James. > No. Bhikkhu Bodhi explained that as for the stage of the sotapanna > and the sakadagami, these can be attained without the cultivation of > jhana. Sarah gave us quotes before. > Nina Guess I should have been more specific. We were discussing the complete elimination of the defilements, for which jhana is necessary. Metta, James #70125 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Mar 29, 2007 5:34 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Agreeable and Disagreeable scottduncan2 Dear Larry, Okay... "L: Okay, let's go at it from your end. What is agreeable and disagreeable? Can you give an example?" 1. I get the latest release by Modest Mouse. I listen to it and find that the second track is disagreeable but that track five is agreeable. 2. I walk out of my office for a coffee and I see a woman who works down the hall and find her agreeable. I get into the atrium and see a man who has come down from the burn unit whose appearance is disagreeable. 3. I read the section in Sammohavinodanii and post it because I find it agreeable. I read your first reply in this thread and find it disagreeable; not in a dosa-rooted way - more in a 'this seems wrong' sort of way opposite to the way the text struck me. I hope these three can help. Sincerely, Scott. #70126 From: connie Date: Thu Mar 29, 2007 6:27 am Subject: Re: Daana Corner & Vessantara panha nichiconn Dear Friends, another piece from VESSANTARA'S EARTHQUAKE: == 'And have you heard of others, O king, who, even in their human body, mounted up to the blessed abode of the great Thirty-three?' 'Yes, I have heard, too, of them.' 'And who were they?' 'Guttila the musician, and Sadhina the king, and king Nimi, and king Mandhata--these four. Long ago was it done, this glorious deed and difficult.' == with a few follow-up links for those interested: www.palikanon.com/english/pali_names/g/guttila.htm www.palikanon.com/english/pali_names/sa/sadhina_jat_494.htm www.palikanon.com/english/pali_names/ma/mandhaataa.htm and: www.palikanon.com/english/pali_names/n/nimi_jat_541.htm {this page doesn't give us the answer to his question "as to which was more fruitful - holy life or giving alms" but does tell us what he does when he gets his first white hair} == peace, connie #70127 From: connie Date: Thu Mar 29, 2007 6:27 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (47) nichiconn dear friends, 7/11, Pa.taacaaraa: "Bhojayitvaana sattaaha.m, daditvaava ticiivara.m; nipacca sirasaa paade, ida.m vacanamabravi.m. "Yaa tayaa va.n.nitaa viira, ito a.t.thamake muni; taadisaaha.m bhavissaami, yadi sijjhati naayaka. "Tadaa avoca ma.m satthaa, bhadde maa bhaayi assasa; anaagatamhi addhaane, lacchase ta.m manoratha.m. "Satasahassito kappe, okkaakakulasambhavo; gotamo naama gottena, satthaa loke bhavissati. "Tassa dhammesu daayaadaa, orasaa dhammanimmitaa; pa.taacaaraati naamena, hessati satthu saavikaa. I fed them for seven days, and I gave [him] the triple robes. I fell down head first at his feet and spoke these words: "O Hero, I shall be like the one praised by you a week ago, O Sage, if it is suitable, O Leader." Then the Teacher said to me, "Noble lady, have no fear, be confident. In a future lifetime you will fulfil this desire. "One hundred aeons from now there will be a Teacher in the world named Gotama through his lineage, a descendant of the Okkaaka clan. There will be an heir to his Doctrine, a legitimate offspring of the Doctrine named Pa.taacaaraa, a disciple of the Teacher." "Tadaaha.m muditaa hutvaa, yaavajiiva.m tadaa jina.m; mettacittaa paricari.m, sasa"ngha.m lokanaayaka.m. "Tena kammena sukatena, cetanaapa.nidhiihi ca; jahitvaa maanusa.m deha.m, taavati.msamagacchaha.m. "Imamhi bhaddake kappe, brahmabandhu mahaayaso; kassapo naama gottena, uppajji vadata.m varo. "Upa.t.thaako mahesissa, tadaa aasi narissaro; kaasiraajaa kikii naama, baaraa.nasipuruttame. "Tassaasi.m tatiyaa dhiitaa, bhikkhunii iti vissutaa; dhamma.m sutvaa jinaggassa, pabbajja.m samarocayi.m. Then I was filled with appreciative joy; and throughout my life, with a heart full of loving kindness, I served the Conqueror, the Leader of the World, together with the Order. As a result of that virtuous deed and of my resolve and purpose, when I abandoned my human body, I went to the Taavati.msa realm. In this auspicious aeon, the Brahmaa Kinsman of Great Fame, Kassapa by name, the Best of Speakers, was born. At that time, the Great Sage's servant was the ruler named Kikii, who was the king of Kaasi in the great city Baara.nasii. I was his third daughter, of great fame by the name of Bhikkhunii. Having heard the Doctrine of the Best of Conquerors, I had a strong inclination to go forth. "Anujaani na no taato, agaareva tadaa maya.m; viisavassasahassaani, vicarimha atanditaa. "Komaaribrahmacariya.m, raajaka~n~naa sukhedhitaa; buddhopa.t.thaananirataa, muditaa sattadhiitaro. "Sama.nii sama.naguttaa ca, bhikkhunii bhikkhudaayikaa; dhammaa ceva sudhammaa ca, sattamii sa"nghadaayikaa. "Aha.m uppalava.n.naa ca, khemaa bhaddaa ca bhikkhunii; kisaagotamii dhammadinnaa, visaakhaa hoti sattamii. "Tehi kammehi sukatehi, cetanaapa.nidhiihi ca; jahitvaa maanusa.m deha.m, taavati.msamagacchaha.m. At that time, our father did not give us permission [to go forth], [so] we seven daughters grew up in comfort as princesses, and unwearying we followed the holy life as virgins for twenty thousand years in our home, delighting in the service of the Buddha with appreciative joy. We were Samanii, Sama.naguttaa, Bhikkhunii, Bhikkhudaayikaa, Dhammaa, Sudhammaa, and the seventh, Sa"nghadaayikaa. [Today] I am Uppalava.n.naa, [and the others are] Khemaa, Bhaddaa, Bhikkhunii, Kisaa-Gotamii, Dhammadinnaa, and Visaakhaa is the seventh. As a result of those virtuous deeds and of my resolve and purpose, when I abandoned my human body, I went to the Taavati.msa realm. to be continued, connie #70128 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Mar 29, 2007 7:16 am Subject: Letters on Vipassana 11, no 6 nilovg Dear friends, Instead of being aware of this moment we are carried away by our thinking of stories about other people or events which took place. We think of other people’s lobha, dosa and moha and this conditions aversion. We cannot change someone else because each moment is conditioned. Instead of thinking of other people’s faults, we should ask ourselves: what about our own citta which thinks? We may be troubled by thinking about a bad experience in the past but then we need right understanding to start anew. “Forget yesterday”, Khun Sujin said. “Satipatthåna saves one from akusala moments”, she remarked. If there can be awareness of our own akusala which arises, the object is a paramattha dhamma, and there is no involvement in concepts. We have heard this before, but we have to hear it again and again before it sinks in. Our goal is the understanding of the reality appearing at this moment. We do not go any further than this moment. If we think of problems or situations there is no understanding of the reality appearing at this moment, Khun Sujin said. Through right understanding of nåma and rúpa we shall be more convinced of the truth of kamma and vipåka. This moment of seeing or hearing is result of kamma, a deed done in the past. We cannot know which kamma of the past produces result at a particular moment, but it is helpful to know that a pleasant or unpleasant result is conditioned by a deed we performed. Nobody can prevent the result from taking place. We cannot blame other people. When we, for example, are disturbed by the noise of a radio or the noise made by the neighbours’ children, we can remember that hearing is vipåka and that thinking with aversion is akusala citta which arises at another moment. Then the object of citta is the present reality and we are not carried away by thinking of concepts. When confidence in the truth of kamma and vipåka arises there will be less fear and worry. If we cannot sleep we may worry about it, but we should know that this is conditioned. When we are fast asleep, without dreaming, there are bhavanga-cittas (life-continuum) which do not experience the objects impinging on the senses and the mind-door, and these cittas are results of kamma. Khun Sujin said to Sarah and Jonothan: “When you understand dhamma as dhamma, you see that everything occurs because of conditions. We fall asleep and get up again, because of conditions. When there are problems, it is because of conditions. There are just different realities, and even though realities appear, ignorance cannot understand them. We take realities for ‘something’ all the time. But awareness can ‘flash in’ any time, because of conditions, and that is the right awareness.” ******* Nina. #70129 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Mar 29, 2007 7:16 am Subject: Rupas Ch 5, no 2. nilovg Dear friends, The “Atthasåliní” (II, Book II, Ch III, 321) explains that women and men have different features, that they are different in outer appearance, in occupation and deportment. But the feminine features, etc. are not identical with the rúpa that is the femininity faculty. The “Atthasåliní” states: ...They are produced in course of process because of that faculty. When there is seed the tree grows because of the seed, and is replete with branch and twig and stands filling the sky; so when there is the feminine controlling faculty called femininity, feminine features, etc. , come to be.... The same is said about the masculinity faculty. The “Atthasåliní” (same section, 322) gives the following definitions of the femininity faculty and the masculinity faculty: Of these two controlling faculties the feminine has the characteristic of (knowing) the state of woman, the function of showing “this is woman”, the manifestation which is the cause of femininity in feature, mark, occupation, deportment. The masculinity controlling faculty has the characteristic of (knowing) the state of man, the function of showing “this is man”, the manifestation which is the cause of masculinity in feature, etc.1 . These two faculties which, as the Visuddhimagga (XIV, 58) explains, are “coextensive with” or pervade the whole body, are not known by visual cognition but only by mind-cognition. But, as the “Atthasåliní” (321) states, their characteristic features, etc., which are conditioned by their respective faculties, are known by visual cognition as well as by mind-cognition. Seeing experiences only visible object, it does not know “This is a woman” or “This is a man”. The citta which recognizes feminine or masculine features does so through the mind-door, but this recognizing is conditioned by seeing. When the commentary states that these characteristic features are known by visual cognition as well as by mind-cognition, it does not speak in detail about the different processes of cittas experiencing objects through the eye-door and through the mind-door. Generally, women like to emphasize their femininity in make up and clothes and men like to emphasize their masculinity. One clings to one’s feminine or masculine features, one’s way of walking and deportment. We should not forget that it is the femininity faculty or masculinity faculty, only a rúpa produced by kamma, which conditions our outward appearance or deportment to be specifically feminine or masculine. We take our sex for self, but it is only a conditioned element devoid of self. ****** Nina #70130 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Mar 29, 2007 7:15 am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 142 and Tiika nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 142 Intro: As we have seen in section 138, in the case of kamma that will produce an unhappy rebirth, an undesirable object is experienced through one of the senses by the last javanacittas. This section (142) deals with kusala kamma of the sense sphere that will produce a happy rebirth and that conditions the last javanacittas to experience a pleasant object through one of the senses. As we have seen, in a sense-door process there is no performance of kamma, this occurs only in a mind-door process. The javanacittas in a sense-door process are weak. Kamma performed in a preceding mind-door process can produce result and the object experienced as a sign of kamma in a sense-door process occurring close to death is similar to the object of the javanacittas arising in the mind-door process which are capable of producing rebirth and which are like the precursor to these last javanacittas. The ‘Topics of Abhidhamma’ (p. 210) states, “However, in the case of a death which comes about when flower,s etc. , presented by relatives, etc., are placed nearby, then, owing to its similarity to the object of the mind-door impulsions, which are capable of relinking and occur depending on colour etc., as the precursor to the process adjacent to decease, the present colour, etc., which forms a single continuity with that former colour, etc., and is also apprehended by the impulsions adjacent to decease, is said to be the sign of kamma.” ---------- Text Vis.142: In another's case, relatives present [objects to him] at the five sense doors, such as a visible datum as object, perhaps flowers, garlands, flags, banners, etc., saying, 'This is being offered to the Blessed One for your sake, dear, set your mind at rest'; -------- N: The Tiika states that this is merit, pu~n~na, on account of his former volition (cetanaa). ------------ Text Vis.: or a sound as object, perhaps, preaching of the Dhamma, offerings of music, etc.; or an odour as object, perhaps incense, scents, perfumes, etc; or a taste as object, perhaps honey, molasses, etc., saying, 'Taste this, dear, it is a gift to be given for your sake'; or a tangible datum as object, perhaps Chinese silk, silk of Somaara, saying, 'Touch this, dear, it is a gift to be given for your sake'. Now when that visible datum, or whatever it may be, as object has come into focus for him and the consciousnesses ending in determining have arisen in due succession, there arise in him impulsions numbering five because of slowing down due to the nearness of death, and two registrations; after that, one death consciousness, making the life-continuum's objective field its object. At the end of that, having that same object, which lasts only a single conscious moment, rebirth-linking consciousness arises. This also is the kind of rebirth-linking with a 'present' object and comes next to a death consciousness with a 'past' object. ---------- N:We read in this section about a situation where relatives are helping the dying person to have kusala cittas, reminding him of his good deeds. He may have offered flowers or incense with appreciation of the Buddha’s virtues, and then shortly before dying the kusala kamma conditions the experience of a pleasant visible object or agreeable odour. However, even though relatives help the dying person to have kusala cittas, it is not sure which kamma, akusala kamma or kusala kamma, has the opportunity to produce rebirth. Actually, this whole section deals with paramattha dhammas, with citta, cetasika and ruupa. Vipaakacittas experience ruupas such as colour, sound, odour and other sense objects through the senses which are also ruupas. Kamma produces those vipaakacittas that are in this case kusala vipaakacittas experiencing a pleasant object. The last javanacittas arising in the same process which experience that pleasant object are conditioned by kamma that will produce a happy rebirth. After that the dying-consciousness arises which experiences a past object, the same object experienced by all bhavangacittas arising in the life that is going to end. Then it is followed immediately by the rebirth-consciousness that experiences the same object as the last javanacittas. It all happens in a flash. Death is the end of a lifespan, but what happens at the end of life is not different from what happens during life at each moment of citta that falls away and is succeeded by a following citta. This is momentary death and rebirth. ***** Nina. #70131 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Mar 29, 2007 12:14 pm Subject: Re: Letters on Vipassana 11, no 2. scottduncan2 Dear James, I just read this one: Kh. S: "I do not think, `defilements are so ugly', they are just realities... James: "This teaching of KS directly contradicts what the Buddha taught in regards to the defilements: '[6] And what are the fermentations to be abandoned by destroying? There is the case where a monk, reflecting appropriately, does not tolerate an arisen thought of sensuality. He abandons it, destroys it, dispels it, & wipes it out of existence...'" Scott: If you have time, how do you see the statement by Kh. Sujin and the sutta to relate? How do you see them to differ? Are they dealing with the same thing? Sincerely, Scott. #70132 From: "colette" Date: Thu Mar 29, 2007 9:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Daana Corner (14) ksheri3 Good Morning sarah, Phil,(Nina, Sukin* & all), Just another bit that I got the chance to read and was perplexed BECAUSE OF sarah's grasps of other concepts in the buddhist tradition: > > *Sukin - some helpful comments, #69809 > > "Regarding the stress on 'anatta'. I think this allows for understanding > of experiences unhindered by 'self'. Self, no matter how subtle, distorts > perception even at the intellectual level. It is like a layer covering > that which must be seen "as it is". > > S: Yes, the more clinging to self, the harder it is to really be honest > and detached about even those gross unwholesome states, I find. > =========== colette: now for my two cents which are of equally less value than defication. Anatta is the concept of NON-SELF since, this too, goes to the Indian- Hindu belief of the Atman, this has to deal with SVABHAVA! We cannot cling to something that from the very begining IS WITHOUT INHERENT NATURE! There is no eternality, so of speak, to anatta. When we place the concept of ANY FORM OF ETERNALITY to our "I" which is the self, THEN we've gone and placed a value structure on our good friend NON-EXISTANCE. We've place something that we DESIRE to have svabhava on to our concept of "I" which is an illusion and IS the definition of ANATTA Sarah suggests that clinging to this "I" raises an issue called (see Name & Form) honesty, here this is an individual thing. What is honesty? What is truth? They are both RELATIVE to the situation (see Time & Place) I've just started on the 3 Levels of Nature in the Yogacara system so pardon my ABSTRACTIONS. Clinging is another concept that I need to work on since there's so much to say about this fundamental principle that I need to work it out of my consciousness. Hopefully I helped illuminate the position but if not, well then. gots ta go suffer at home and the torment of my roomates. toodles, colette > #70133 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Mar 29, 2007 1:18 pm Subject: Re: Letters on Vipassana 11, no 2. scottduncan2 Dear James, Here's the take I have on this: Sabbaasava Sutta, from which you used just a portion, is summarised at the beginning thus: "Bhikkhus, I say that the destruction of the taints is for one who knows and sees, not for one who does not know and see. Who knows and sees what? Wise attention and unwise attention. When one attends unwisely, unarisen taints arise and arisen taints increase. When one attends wisely, unarisen taints do not arise and arisen taints are abandoned." Then, abandoning by seeing, restraining, using, enduring, avoiding, removing, and developing are set out. You quoted the passage discussing removing (vinodana.m). The Paa.li for the above is: "Jaanato aha.m bhikkhave passato aasavaana.m khaya.m vadaami no ajaanato no apassato. Ki~nca bhikkhave jaanato ki~nca passato asavana.m khayo hoti? Yoniso ca manasikaara.m ayoniso ca manasikà ra.m. Ayoniso bhikkhave manasikaroto anuppannaa ceva aasavaa uppajjanti uppannaa ca aasavaa pava.d.dhanti. Yoniso ca kho bhikkhave manasikaroto anuppannaa ceva aasavaa na uppajjanti, uppannaa ca aasavaa pahiiyanti." JÄ?nÄ?ti (PTS PED): "Meaning: ...to know, to have or gain knowledge, to be experienced, to be aware, to find out...to know recognize, be familiar with..., to have knowledge of, experience, find; to infer, conclude, distinguish, state, define...to recognize as, to see in, take for, identify as, etc." Kh. Sujin: "I do not think, `defilements are so ugly', they are just realities. There should be understanding of them. People want to get rid of all defilements but they do not have any understanding of them. Why should our first objective not be right understanding? I do not understand why people are so much irritated by their defilements. One is drawn to the idea of self all the time, while one thinks about it whether one has less defilements or more. There is no understanding but merely thinking of kusala and akusala as `ours'. So long as there is ignorance there must be different degrees of akusala. We should just develop understanding of whatever reality appears. At the moment of developing understanding one is not carried away by thoughts about the amount of one's defilements, wondering about it how many defilements one has or whether they are decreasing. Just be aware instantly!" Kh. Sujin is not my teacher. Dhamma is the Teacher. Does she teach Dhamma is the question? The sutta and Kh. Sujin both refer to understanding. She seems to say that understanding the taints takes precedence over worrying about 'my taints'. She seems to be discussing Right Understanding. No contradiction. Sincerely, Scott. #70134 From: han tun Date: Thu Mar 29, 2007 3:57 pm Subject: Daana Corner (29) hantun1 Dear Dhamma Friends, This is taken from “Giving in the Pali Canon” by Lily de Silva. Lily de Silva wrote the essay in the following sub-headings: *Functions of Giving* *Qualities of the Donor* *The Donations* *The Donee* *The Motivation of Giving* *The Manner of Giving* *The Value of Giving* The following is “The Value of Giving” (5 of 5 parts) Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ------------------------------ As mentioned at the beginning of this essay, dana is the first of the meritorious deeds. It is also one of the four benevolent ways of treating others (cattari sangahavatthuni), A.iv,219). But is noteworthy that in the lists of virtues required for liberation such as those included among the thirty-seven requisites of enlightenment (bodhipakkhiya dhamma), dana never occurs as a required virtue. Instead of dana, caga or generosity is included in some of the lists, such as the five qualities — faith virtue, learning, generosity and wisdom. Perhaps there is a slight difference between dana and caga when considered as virtues ingrained in the mind. Dana is the very practical act of giving, caga is the generous attitude ingrained in the mind by the repeated practice of dana. The word caga literally means giving up, abandonment, and it is an indication that the close-fitted selfish grip one has on one's possessions is loosened by caga. It is possible to give alms even out of negative motives such as favoritism (chanda), ill will (dosa), fear (bhaya), delusion (moha), desire for a good reputation, etc., but caga is the positive virtue of a generous disposition. Buddhism teaches a gradual process of emptying oneself. It starts with giving away one's external possessions. When the generous dispositional trait sets in and is fortified by the deepening insight into the real nature of things, one grows disenchanted with sense pleasures (nibbindati). At this stage one gives up household life and seeks ordination. Next comes the emptying of sensory inputs by guarding the sense doors. Through meditation (bhavana) one empties oneself of deep-seated defilements and fills oneself with positive noble qualities. But this whole process of bailing out negativities starts with dana, the practice of giving. ------------------------------ This is the End of “Giving in the Pali Canon” by Lily de Silva. Venerable Bhikkhu Bodhi had compiled and edited five essays. We have read two; three more to go! *Giving from the Heart (M. O'C. Walshe) *Generosity: The Inward Dimension (Nina van Gorkom) *The Perfection of Giving (Acariya Dhammapala) with metta, Han #70135 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Thu Mar 29, 2007 1:40 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Wrong teaching of Thanissaro about Anatta dacostacharles Dear all, I think I understand why John won't budge about Thanissaro thoughts: Relatively speaking, he is right. In the Buddha's time Anatta was more about what we call a soul today (not the idea of a self) and what the Buddha wanted to get across was that his ... had the wrong view of the self. So we have to ask what is the right view and why didn't the sutra present it, or did it in an unclear way? We do have to keep in mine that the Buddha believed in many life-times and the rounds of rebirth - samsara. Those concepts are about "selves and souls" Charles DaCosta _____ #70136 From: LBIDD@... Date: Thu Mar 29, 2007 5:25 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Agreeable and Disagreeable lbidd2 Hi Scott, I don't understand. It looks like you are almost agreeing with me. Try again. What is your understanding of the categories "agreeable and disagreeable", giving examples? Larry ----------------------------- S: "Dear Larry, Okay... "L: Okay, let's go at it from your end. What is agreeable and disagreeable? Can you give an example?" 1. I get the latest release by Modest Mouse. I listen to it and find that the second track is disagreeable but that track five is agreeable. 2. I walk out of my office for a coffee and I see a woman who works down the hall and find her agreeable. I get into the atrium and see a man who has come down from the burn unit whose appearance is disagreeable. 3. I read the section in Sammohavinodanii and post it because I find it agreeable. I read your first reply in this thread and find it disagreeable; not in a dosa-rooted way - more in a 'this seems wrong' sort of way opposite to the way the text struck me. I hope these three can help. Sincerely, Scott." #70137 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Mar 29, 2007 6:33 pm Subject: Re: Letters on Vipassana 11, no 2. buddhatrue Hi Scott, You have written two posts to me on the same subject, so I will try to combine them and respond. Scott: If you have time, how do you see the statement by Kh. Sujin and the sutta to relate? How do you see them to differ? Are they dealing with the same thing? James: For KS to state that she doesn't see the defilements as "ugly", that they are just realities, is a direct contradiction of the Buddha who states that defilements should be eliminated, wiped out of existence, etc. The mind is like a house and the defilements are like unwelcome guests. You don't offer them a drink and a seat and try to reach some type of "understanding" with them, you get them out of the house by whatever means necessary. They can be removed by seeing, restraining, using, enduring, avoiding, removing, and developing, as you point out, but they must be removed. They should not be tolerated or "understood" in a sympathetic manner. For KS to state that we shouldn't view the defilements as "ugly" is in support of ignorance. One way the Buddha defined ignorance is when we see the "beautiful" as "ugly" and the "ugly" as beautiful. Wisdom is seeing the beautiful as beautiful and the ugly as ugly. KS is also in contradiction of the Abhidhamma, which defines mental states in terms of those mental states which are beautiful and those which are ugly. According to the Abhidhamma, there are 25 beautiful mental factors (sobhanaa saadhaaranaa) and their opposites are the unwholesome (ugly) mental factors, which are 14 in number. Scott: The sutta and Kh. Sujin both refer to understanding. She seems to say that understanding the taints takes precedence over worrying about 'my taints'. She seems to be discussing Right Understanding. No contradiction. James: Rather than focusing on "my taints" (something KS far over- emphasizes), let's focus on "worries" or "hates" the defilements. Is one supposed to worry about and hate the defilements? Well, according to the Abhidhamma, yes! Two of the beautiful mental factors are Shame of evil (hiri) and fear of evil (ottappa). These are things to be encouraged. We should "hate" or "abhor" the defilements (or have shame over them) and we should "worry" about the defilements (or have fear about them). These are two of the beautiful mental factors which should be encouraged. I don't care how you look at it, KS is contradicting what the Buddha taught- and in this case it is plainly obvious. Scott: Kh. Sujin is not my teacher. Dhamma is the Teacher. Does she teach Dhamma is the question? James: The answer is: No she doesn't teach the Dhamma. Metta, James #70138 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Mar 29, 2007 6:56 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Agreeable and Disagreeable scottduncan2 Dear Larry, L: "I don't understand. It looks like you are almost agreeing with me." Scott: Its because I'm a goof. I thought you wanted me to give you some examples so you could show me what you were trying to say using my examples. At least I'm compliant (and a goof). L: "Try again. What is your understanding of the categories 'agreeable and disagreeable', giving examples?" Okay, I think I get it now. Please let me consider this and reply in the morning. Sincerely, Scott. #70139 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Mar 29, 2007 8:08 pm Subject: Re: Letters on Vipassana 11, no 2. scottduncan2 Dear James, Scott: Thanks for your reply. I have to say that I was a bit disappointed in it. I regret that you were unable to discuss the sutta a little further. I thought you pulled something from that sutta out of context to support your statements. I'm still curious as to how you would respond to the part of my last reply to you. What do you think about the points I made regarding the overall gist of the sutta? You did, after all, use a portion of the sutta to substantiate your claim that Dhamma is not being taught by Kh. Sujin. Please don't use sutta references irresponsibly and just for the purpose of being contradictory. Here, in your reply, you more or less reiterate your claim, this time without any sutta reference at all. James: "For KS to state that she doesn't see the defilements as "ugly", that they are just realities, is a direct contradiction of the Buddha who states that defilements should be eliminated, wiped out of existence, etc." Scott: What are defilements if not realities? What's so controversial or contradictory about this? Of course they're realities, James. Even you can't say they're not, otherwise why would you be making such strong statements about them? J: "The mind is like a house and the defilements are like unwelcome guests. You don't offer them a drink and a seat and try to reach some type of "understanding" with them, you get them out of the house by whatever means necessary." Scott: Perhaps you take exception to the qualifier 'just'. Is one supposed to get all worked up and attached to the idea of ridding one's self of defilements? What's wrong with detachment, anyway? J: "They can be removed by seeing, restraining, using, enduring, avoiding, removing, and developing, as you point out, but they must be removed. They should not be tolerated or "understood" in a sympathetic manner." Scott: Where do you get this notion of 'understood in a sympathetic manner' anyway? Perhaps you can say how you understand seeing and the rest 'remove' defilements. Again, try considering the sutta references I used in my last reply. That way this might be more like a discussion and less like your repetitive and pointless axe-grinding. J: "For KS to state that we shouldn't view the defilements as "ugly" is in support of ignorance. One way the Buddha defined ignorance is when we see the "beautiful" as "ugly" and the "ugly" as beautiful. Wisdom is seeing the beautiful as beautiful and the ugly as ugly." Actually, this is vipallaasa (Nyanatiloka): "Vipallaasa: 'perversions' or 'distortions'. - ''There are 4 perversions which may be either of perception sa~n~na-vipallaa?sa of consciousness citta v. or of views ditthi-v. And which are these four? To regard what is impermanent anicca as permanent; what is painful dukkha as pleasant or happiness-yielding; what is without a self anattaa? as a self; what is impure ugly: asubha as pure or beautiful..." J: "KS is also in contradiction of the Abhidhamma, which defines mental states in terms of those mental states which are beautiful and those which are ugly. According to the Abhidhamma, there are 25 beautiful mental factors (sobhanaa saadhaaranaa) and their opposites are the unwholesome (ugly) mental factors, which are 14 in number." Scott: Now, the above is utter nonsense, in my opinion. Have you read 'A Survey of Paramattha Dhammas'? If you haven't you should. Then you wouldn't even think of stating something like what's just above. Kh. Sujin clearly understands Abhidhamma far better than you or I. If you wish, why don't you try to explain how you think Kh. Sujin's statement contradicts the Abhidhamma? I don't care, actually, she's not my teacher and she doesn't need my support, nor would she likely get too wet in a Buddhatrue shower. James: "Rather than focusing on "my taints" (something KS far over- emphasizes), let's focus on "worries" or "hates" the defilements. Is one supposed to worry about and hate the defilements? Well, according to the Abhidhamma, yes! Two of the beautiful mental factors are Shame of evil (hiri) and fear of evil (ottappa). These are things to be encouraged. We should "hate" or "abhor" the defilements (or have shame over them) and we should "worry" about the defilements (or have fear about them). These are two of the beautiful mental factors which should be encouraged." Scott: James, it is entirely clear to me that you misunderstand all of this. There is no one to hate, abhor or worry about anything. You cite the existence of the mental factors of hiri-ottappa and then completely mix it up by speaking as if these are something that someone can use to do something with in relation to defilements. You don't understand the notion of encouraging or developing hiri-ottappa. You think that you can do something to encourage and develop them. You've read on this list longer than I have, you shouldn't be making this mistake after all this time. J: "I don't care how you look at it, KS is contradicting what the Buddha taught- and in this case it is plainly obvious....The answer is: No she doesn't teach the Dhamma." Scott: I'm sorry, so far you've convinced my of nothing by virtue of the points you've set out. I'd appreciate it if you could take more time and be more precise in attempting to back up your statements. I wouldn't be surprised if you didn't want to do this, actually, because I think you prefer to keep taking endless shots than make constructive arguments. Give it a try though, I'm still here. Sincerely, Scott. #70140 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Mar 29, 2007 9:30 pm Subject: Re: Letters on Vipassana 11, no 2. buddhatrue Hi Scott, The tone of this post is condescending so I will not be responding to it. Here are your statements which I find objectionable: 1. Please don't use sutta references irresponsibly and just for the purpose of being contradictory. 2. Again, try considering the sutta references I used in my last reply. That way this might be more like a discussion and less like your repetitive and pointless axe-grinding. 3. I don't care, actually, she's not my teacher and she doesn't need my support, nor would she likely get too wet in a Buddhatrue shower. 4. You've read on this list longer than I have, you shouldn't be making this mistake after all this time. 5. I wouldn't be surprised if you didn't want to do this, actually, because I think you prefer to keep taking endless shots than make constructive arguments. James: LOL! First Nina and now you- this is obviously a touchy subject. I am just going to back away from it. I have nothing to prove. Metta, James #70141 From: "Phil" Date: Thu Mar 29, 2007 11:40 pm Subject: Re: Letters on Vipassana 11, no 2. philofillet Hi Scott > What's wrong with detachment, anyway? This is a key point. Personally, I think the notion of "detachment" through thinking/reflecting on dhammas is a bit of a fantasy that we can become aware of. If we go around thinking about "detachment", with all our development of Dhamma in our noggins, when circumstances whack us, our supposed detachement will be revealed as very false. On the other hand, I think if we follow the Buddha's advice to develop mindfulness of the body, we will (or are more likely) to develop something very solid in which conditions are laid down through which a real detachment can take root. A real shelter, a refuge. We need a less sublime refuge before we can find refuge in "detachment." I think we are better off not thinking about "detachemnt." It is not for the likes of us, busy householders who do not have conditions to be deeply absorbed in practice. Just my opinion. Won't be able to discuss, as I am one post away from my break, but please reflect on "detachment" and whether Acharn Sujin's "there must be detachment from the beginning" is not in fact a bit nonsensical. Metta, Phil #70142 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Thu Mar 29, 2007 11:55 pm Subject: Re: Letters on Vipassana 11, no 2. rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > but please reflect on "detachment" and whether Acharn > Sujin's "there must be detachment from the beginning" is not in fact > a bit nonsensical. ___________ Dear Phil I think you believe Khun Sujin means that when beginning to study Dhamma one should be like an anagami who has no attachment to sense objects, but this is not the case at all. When she says that "there must be detachment from the beginning" she is referring to the fact that all maha kusala cittas come with lobha (non- attachment) rather than lobha, attachment. It is not uncommon for new comers to Buddhism to make great efforts, but if the effort is associated with cittas rooted in lobha they are going in the wrong direction. Robert > #70143 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Mar 30, 2007 12:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Daana Corner (25) sarahprocter... Hi Howard (& James), --- upasaka@... wrote: > > S: In this context of the bases of meritorious deeds, it seems to be > > particularly 'the path of insight' that is intended. I agree with > James > > that the dictionary meaning of meditation is more along the lines of > > 'reflection' and 'contemplation'. If this is what you mean by > > 'meditation', it's not too bad, but of course, the development of > insight, > > the understanding of namas and rupas, is much more than mere wise > > contemplation. > > > ===================== > It's not what I mean. I mean the process of cultivating deep > states of > calm, clarity, and insight that transform the mind. I do not identify > meditation with reflection and contemplation. They are important, and > they are they > constitute the Christian idea of meditation, I believe, but they are not > what I > understand by Buddhist meditation. .... S: Appreciated. I think the problem is that 'meditation' means different things to different people. While I'm away, perhaps you and James can try to find a common definition of what you mean by meditation as a translation of bhavana - one that particularly covers 'the path of insight' in the context of the 'meritorious deeds'. That would be helpful. This is what James referred to in him message to Jon on the same thread: .... >J: Here is the definition of "meditation" (from the same source): meditation noun 1. continuous and profound contemplation or musing on a subject or series of subjects of a deep or abstruse nature; "the habit of meditation is the basis for all real knowledge" 2. (religion) contemplation of spiritual matters (usually on religious or philosophical subjects) http://dictionary.reference.com/ ..... Metta, Sarah ======= #70144 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Fri Mar 30, 2007 12:05 am Subject: Re: Letters on Vipassana 11, no 2. rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > James: Rather than focusing on "my taints" (something KS far over- > emphasizes), let's focus on "worries" or "hates" the defilements. Is > one supposed to worry about and hate the defilements? Well, > according to the Abhidhamma, yes! Two of the beautiful mental > factors are Shame of evil (hiri) and fear of evil (ottappa). These > are things to be encouraged. We should "hate" or "abhor" the > defilements (or have shame over them) and we should "worry" about the > defilements (or have fear about them). These are two of the > beautiful mental factors which should be encouraged. > > I don't care how you look at it, KS is contradicting what the Buddha > taught- and in this case it is plainly obvious. > __________ Dear James It may be hepful to define terms as your disagreement may be about the nuances of the English translation of hiri , otappa, - and the pali of hate etc. When you say one should hate the defilements what are the mental factors arising when hating? Does it come with pleasant, neutral or unpleasant feeling? Do hiri and otappa come with pleasant, neutral or unpleasant feeling? Robert #70145 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Mar 30, 2007 12:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Leading to stream entry sarahprocter... Dear Han & all, --- han tun wrote: >> Han: I don’t think there was a later interpolation to > MN 142 Dakkhinaavibhanga Sutta. > The important thing is when making offerings, one > should focus one’s mind on giving to the Sangha, and > regarding any monk as the *representative* of the > Sangha, and therefore *represents* all the virtues of > the Buddha’s first five disciples, and all the > Arahants, past and present. .... S: I fully agree with your comments and the others that have been posted on this topic. It was an unfortunate comment in Lily de Silva's article about 'later interpolation' as most of her article and all her quotes are so very helpful. (I also didn't agree with a comment she made about Anathapindika - to the effect that there was no bhavana as he was only a sotapanna! I'm sure you'll remember it. Did you have any thought on this?) Metta, Sarah ====== #70146 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Fri Mar 30, 2007 12:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Defilements: can there be awareness of them? rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > ======================= > I already explained what I meant in objecting to "Just be aware > instantly". I made it very clear what I meant, and it had nothing to do with > objecting to understanding defilements. Of course we should do our best to understand > defilements. This is a silly discussion about a straw man. _________ Dear Howard I see. I should say though that I disagree that awareness cannot arise instantly, I would be happy to discuss the topic if you wish. Robert #70147 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Fri Mar 30, 2007 12:23 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Kenh - bombs, monks etc rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: >> --- rjkjp1 wrote: > > In the meantime let's start with a challenging story to think about. > > Bahiya became an arahat while listening to a short sutta. The > > Commentaries say he was a bhikkhu when the Dhamma was declining in > > the time of Kassapa and with 6 other bhikkhu climbed a mountain, > > kicked away the ladder , and vowed arahat or die. One monk attained > > arahat, one anagami, and the rest died of starvation... > > How do we understand that, any takers..? > .... > quoted the details: > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/burlingame/wheel324.html#se ct29 > > You brought up this story in Bangkok last August and asked K.Sujin for her > comments which led to further discussion. I happened to come across it*, > so will just give a summary of some of the points of interest. > > You asked how one can explain those actions and she responded by saying > that "'no one can stop anyone's accumulations......different > accumulations. No need to copy!" As examples, she also gave the example > of the monk (in the Satipatthana Sutta) who always started and stopped and > then the interesting example of the dung-eating ascetic who became an > arahant! "Accumulated like that, see?" > .... > [This was the account about Jambuka, the naked ascetic as given in the > Dhp. commentary, 70 > > From the Dict of Pali Proper Names: > > "l. Jambuka Thera.-He was born in Râjagaha of rich parents but from > infancy he would eat nothing but excrement. When he grew older he was > ordained with the âjîvakas, who pulled out his hair with a palmyra comb. > When the Ajivakas discovered that he ate filth, they expelled him and he > lived as a naked ascetic, The Buddha told him of his past evil deeds which had > condemned him to practise austerities for so long and counselled him to > give up his evil ways. In the course of the sermon, Jambuka grew ashamed > of his nakedness and the Buddha gave him a bath-robe. At the end of the > discourse Jambuka became an arahant, and when the inhabitants of Anga and > Magadha came to him with their offerings, he performed a miracle before > them and paid homage to the Buddha, acknowledging him as his teacher." > > S: He was living in a cave, eating his excrement, deceiving the world by > pretending to be living on air and yet the Buddha saw that he would only > need to give a single stanza and that by the end of it, he would become an > arahant and 84,000 living beings would be enlightened too.] > ...... > After a change of subject, you brought the discussion back to the bhikkhus > who climbed the mountain and kicked away the ladder. Again, K.Sujin > stressed that "each moment is conditioned by accumulations" and that "one > has to be very precise [as to] the moment. > Back again to the extreme behaviour of the bhikkhus and K.Sujin said it > indicated how difficult it is to understand realities. One of them became > an arahant, one became an anagami, but the others died of starvation. It > takes thousands of times listening to the teachings to understand them. > Just once is not enough, she was stressing, because of so much ignorance. > We all have different accumulations and so did the bhikkhus and it'll > depend on such accumulations what conditions the parami to develop. > > "For us now, what will we do? When will we do it? It all depends on > accumulations." We live different lives, have different ways. > > Again she stressed that people will do anything according to their > accumulations. The important thing is that whatever they do, there has to > be the development of right understanding. "Otherwise, it's impossible to > become enlightened." > > > You mentioned that in the story of the bhikkhus who climbed the mountain, > that it seems they had done so with right understanding. K.Sujin agreed > that they had not done so with any apparent wrong understanding but again, > she stressed, one shouldn't copy! __________ Dear Sarah Thanks for typing this out. I think the main point is that those bhikkhu were acting out of wisdom and right effort (unlike Jambuka- whose good accumulations were done in that past). Hard to understand and definitly not for copying, but good to know about. Robert #70148 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Mar 30, 2007 12:29 am Subject: Re: Letters on Vipassana 11, no 2. scottduncan2 Dear James, Thanks for your reply. J: "The tone of this post is condescending so I will not be responding to it." Scott: Don't like it, eh? This is the tone you use, James. You don't recognise it? Don't dish it out if you can't take it. I thought everyone knew about that little rule of thumb. J: "Here are your statements which I find objectionable:" Scott: Had to respond anyway? Oh, go ahead... "1. Please don't use sutta references irresponsibly and just for the purpose of being contradictory. 2. Again, try considering the sutta references I used in my last reply. That way this might be more like a discussion and less like your repetitive and pointless axe-grinding. 3. I don't care, actually, she's not my teacher and she doesn't need my support, nor would she likely get too wet in a Buddhatrue shower. 4. You've read on this list longer than I have, you shouldn't be making this mistake after all this time. 5. I wouldn't be surprised if you didn't want to do this, actually, because I think you prefer to keep taking endless shots than make constructive arguments." Scott: Like it or lump it, James. That's what we're all supposed to do when your at it. James: "LOL! First Nina and now you- this is obviously a touchy subject. I am just going to back away from it. I have nothing to prove." Scott: Good one. Blame the subject. Might as well laugh. The problem is you, in my opinion - this opinion being, naturally, of as much worth as tits on a boar. I didn't suggest you had anything to prove. You're arguing with yourself. The problem is you. James, why don't you just play nice? Most everyone else here does. Drop the tone and the attitude and the bluster. I get it. You don't think what Kh. Sujin teaches is Dhamma and we're all supposed to meditate. Back away or not. Again, I don't care. Discuss things, James. Don't just snipe. Make your points in the old fashioned way - by actually using cogent arguments others can feel like responding to. Please spare us the rest. Sincerely, Scott. #70149 From: "Phil" Date: Fri Mar 30, 2007 1:40 am Subject: Re: Letters on Vipassana 11, no 2. philofillet Hi Robert (ps to Scott) > I think you believe Khun Sujin means that when beginning to study > Dhamma one should be like an anagami who has no attachment to sense > objects, but this is not the case at all. > When she says that "there must be detachment from the beginning" she is > referring to the fact that all maha kusala cittas come with lobha (non- > attachment) rather than lobha, attachment. It is not uncommon for new > comers to Buddhism to make great efforts, but if the effort is > associated with cittas rooted in lobha they are going in the wrong > direction. I'm not so sure about this, Robert. At least I haven't come across any explicit warnings in suttas about the danger of being attached to one's results in Dhamma, about attachment to mindfulness. (I know you quoted a commentary passage to show a teaching on attachment to mindfulness, but it didn't really strike home. But I am open to hearing more on this.) Personally, I think that even if there is attachment involced in Dhamma practice, intentional practices etc it can help provide a shelter in which deeper understanding can develop. At the very worst, it leads to people becoming less harmful, milder, more virtuous on the surface. Yes, it's true that they (we) don't develop a deeper understanding that is truly liberating. But I think a shelter of virtuous practices is necessary to begin with. I don't have my sutta books with me because I'm at work, but I have this from a pocket notebook: "If there is no sense control, on monks, then the basis for virtue is destroyed for one who lacks sense control. If there is no right concentration ...(you know the rest.) (AN VI, 50) I think the whole thing about knowing defilemnts is that even if the "knowing" is rooted in lobha, concerning about self-image and so on, it is a necessary first step. A person who is morally corrupt, really out of control, cannot develop understanding. I heard Acharn Sujin confirm this point in a talk from the last India series, much to Sarah's surprise. (A.SUjin said that a a reallu immoral murderer cannot develop satipatthana, and Sarah said "well, he *could* This was in response to a question about a sutta of the sort I quote above) Virtuous ways of conduct, wholesome mental habits - these must be developed before the conditions for understanding to be developed can be laid down. Of course there is a rudimentary wisdom/discretion/understanding involved in this. But I have yet to see a sutta that warns about the danger of attachment involved in Dhamma practices, that warns about attachment to minfulness for example, nor have I heard any teacher other than Acharn Sujin warn about it. Just some thoughts from work. Really babbled out right off the top of my head. Metta, Phil p.s to Scott. Scott, after posting about getting "whacked by circumstances" I remembered that you were whacked in a very hard way indeed and I have no right to talk to you about detachment one has or doesn't have in the face of tragedy, hard times etc. Also in my post the bit about mindfulness of the body came up off the top of my head but was a bit off topic. What I wanted to write was more like I've written above. I know you and everyone else has heard this sort of thing a thousand times here and you won't be convinved but just thought I'd lay it down again. #70150 From: han tun Date: Fri Mar 30, 2007 3:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Leading to stream entry hantun1 Dear Sarah, Sarah: (I also didn't agree with a comment she made about Anathapindika - to the effect that there was no bhavana as he was only a sotapanna! I'm sure you'll remember it. Did you have any thought on this?) The text (by Lily de Silva): It is evident that giving alone is not sufficient for one to make an end of suffering. Anathapindika, who was pronounced by the Buddha as the foremost among almsgivers, became only a stream-enterer. It is specifically said that dana has to be fortified by sila, morality, if it is to produce good results. Though Anathapindika practiced unblemished virtue, it is nowhere stated that he practiced mental culture or meditation (bhavana). Therefore, in spite of all his magnanimous munificence, he had to remain a stream-enterer. Han: I cannot refute Lily de Silva’s statement that “it is nowhere stated that he practiced mental culture or meditation (bhavana)” because I also cannot find it. I can only draw conclusions by inference. Please examine the following passages I have taken from http://mettanet.org/pali-utils/Pali-Proper-Names/anaathapindika.htm (1) < The Buddha was staying in the Sítavana, and when Anaathapindika reached there spirits opened the door for him. He found the Buddha walking up and down, meditating in the cool air of the early dawn. The Buddha greeted him and talked to him on various aspects of his teaching. Anaathapindika was immediately converted and became a Sotaapanna.> Han: So it is possible that he became a Sotaapanna without practicing bhavanaa. ------------------------------ (2) < Anaathapindika went regularly to see the Buddha twice a day, sometimes with many friends (J.i.95ff.; he went three times says J.i.226), and always taking with him alms for the young novices. But we are told that he never asked a question of the Buddha lest he should weary him. He did not wish the Buddha to feel obliged to preach to him in return for his munificence (DhA.i.3). But the Buddha of his own accord preached to him on various occasions; several such sermons are mentioned in the Anguttara Nikaaya:> Han: Again it is possible that although he had constant contact with the Buddha he did not ask any serious Dhamma questions, including the practice of bhavanaa. But on the other hand, the Buddha of his own accord preached him on various occasions. So it is difficult to assume that the Buddha did not urge him to practice bhavanaa. But let us see another event. ------------------------------ (3) < Anaathapindika died before the Buddha. As he lay grievously ill he sent a special message to Saariputta asking him to come (again, probably, because he did not want to trouble the Buddha). Saariputta went with Ananda and preached to him the Anaathapindikovaada Sutta.> In MN 143 Anathapindikovada Sutta: Instructions to Anathapindika, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.143.than.html < When this was said, Anathapindika the householder wept and shed tears. Ven. Ananda said to him, "Are you sinking, householder? Are you foundering?" "No, venerable sir. I'm not sinking, nor am I foundering. It's just that for a long time I have attended to the Teacher, and to the monks who inspire my heart, but never before have I heard a talk on the Dhamma like this." "This sort of talk on the Dhamma, householder, is not given to lay people clad in white. This sort of talk on the Dhamma is given to those gone forth." "In that case, Ven. Sariputta, please let this sort of talk on the Dhamma be given to lay people clad in white. There are clansmen with little dust in their eyes who are wasting away through not hearing [this] Dhamma. There will be those who will understand it." Then Ven. Sariputta and Ven. Ananda, having given this instruction to Anathapindika the householder, got up from their seats and left. Then, not long after they left, Anathapindika the householder died and reappeared in the Tusita heaven.> Han: Anaathapindika wept because he had never before heard a talk on the Dhamma like the one given by Ven Saariputta. It is highly unlikely that the Buddha did not preach those serious Dhamma talks in his presence, but it is possible that he did not pay proper attention to those sermons. Therefore, considering all the above facts, I cannot refute Lily de Silva’s statement on this point. Respectfully, Han #70151 From: han tun Date: Fri Mar 30, 2007 3:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Daana Corner (29) hantun1 Dear Nina, Sarah and others, It is good that Lily de Silva had mentioned the slight difference between daana and caaga. Although both the Pali words are translated as generosity, they have a slightly different connotation. Bhikkhu Bodhi in his Introduction to An Anthology of Suttas from the Anguttara Nikaaya wrote about caaga as follows. Quote [Generosity (caaga). In the context of Indian spirituality generosity has a wider significance than simply giving in charity to the poor and needy. It includes these, but above all it means support for ascetics who have renounced the home life to devote themselves to self-mastery and self-purification. To give to the religious their simple material requisites – robes, almsfood, lodgings and medicines – is a potent source of merit productive of rich rewards. The community of renunciants is depicted as a field, and acts of giving are like seeds deposited in the field, which yield abundant fruit when the recipients are dedicated to a life of purity. But the best reward of generosity is an internal one: that the donor “dwells at home with a mind devoid of the stain of stinginess, freely generous, open-handed, delighting in relinquishment.” The practice of generosity thus nurtures the capacity for renunciation so necessary for progress along the path to liberation.] End Quote. ------------------------------ In the seven treasures of noble persons, for generosity, the Pali word caaga is used. (1) faith (saddhaa) (2) virtue (siila) (3) moral shame (hiri) (4) moral dread (ottappa) (5) knowledge (suta) (6) generosity (caaga) (7) wisdopm (pa~n~naa) ------------------------------ Again, for the six qualities of generosity as shown in AN 8.49 the word caaga is used. How is a woman accomplished in generosity? (kathaaca maatugaamo caaga-sampanno hoti?) The answer is as follows (English translation by Bhikkhu Bodhi). (1) dwells at home with a mind devoid of the stain of stinginess (vigatamala-maccherena cetasaa agaaran) (2) freely generous (ajjhaavasati muttaa-caago) (3) open-handed (payata-paani) (4) delighting in relinquishment (vossagga-rato) (5) devoted to charity (yaaca-yogo) (6) delighting in giving and sharing (daana-sanvibhaaga-rato). ------------------------------ Also in ten Anussatis (Reflections) for the reflection on the generosity, the word caagaanussati is used. ------------------------------ Talking about caaga as the generosity of “internal one” (by Lily de Silva and Bhikkhu Bodhi), we will read more about this internal dimension of generosity when we read Nina’s “Generosity: The Inward Dimension.” Respectfully, Han #70152 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Mar 30, 2007 3:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Daana Corner (26) sarahprocter... Dear Han (& Nina), --- han tun wrote: > (5) By giving alms without hurting oneself and others, > one gains security from dangers such as fire, floods, > thieves, kings and unloved heirs (A. iii,172). > > For details you can also click on the following link. > AN 5.148 Sappurisadana Sutta: A Person of Integrity's > Gifts, Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an05/an05.148.than.html > > > Han: I would like to draw the kind attention of the > readers to the fifth way of giving, viz., giving a > gift without adversely affecting himself or OTHERS. .... S: I saw Nina's response and also your comment about a 'third party' too. I think that in general, when making gifts one has to consider the needs of the donees as discussed and consider what is appropriate. I also think we need to be considerate of others, such as family members, so as not to cause unnecessary conflict or dismay. Of course, we've just been reading the example of Vessantara and how a gift which brings sorrow to others can still lead to great fruit if the motive is pure: " 'What, venerable Naagasena? He who gives gifts in such a way as to bring sorrow upon others -- does that giving of his bring forth fruit in happiness, does it lead to rebirth in states of bliss?' 'Yes, O king. What can be said (to the contrary)?' " **** Metta, Sarah p.s Thank you for your comment on 'aasajja' (approaching....insulting) etc. I think in context as Lily de Silva suggests, it must mean more than just 'coming towards', more like 'with the idea of insulting...' as she suggests perhaps? ============= #70153 From: chandra fabian Date: Fri Mar 30, 2007 3:31 am Subject: Re: Letters on Vipassana 11, no 2. chandrafabian Dear Friends, Count me in as a person who support Kh Sujin comments about this topic, one of subtler defilement is hatred toward your own defilements. defilements is natural for a person who still see things or phenomena with concepts, the nature of this phenomenon can be realised when you progress further in Vipassana, and by that time you can see defilements arise because attachment or reactions to all forms of mental or physical phenomena, the problems usually arise if you refuse or accept them when they arise, and cling to them. The right understanding towards these defilements is aware of their presence without reacting and see it when they disappear also without reacting, this understanding sometimes known as "seeing things as they really are" Sincerely, Fabian #70154 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Mar 30, 2007 3:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Daana Corner (25) buddhatrue Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > While I'm away, perhaps you and James can try to find a common definition > of what you mean by meditation as a translation of bhavana Hmmm...well, that's a tall order. Probably impossible. As I wrote to you, I think the definitions of meditation and bhavana are rather vague. See for example this page from Wikipedia which defines "Buddhist Meditation" (it is all over the map! ;-)): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_meditation Metta, James #70155 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Mar 30, 2007 3:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] no burning curiosity sarahprocter... Hi Connie, --- connie wrote: > Connie: Just in passing ... Jon mentioned once, laughingly, about a > glowing chair? So, my shot in the dark: Path of Purity, ch. xx, in the > > section on Insight Corrupters [634], following a quote from the > Patisambhida, ii, 100f.: > > Therein illumination means insight-illumination. When that arises the > meditator seizes what is not the Path as the Path, and what is not the > fruition as the fruition saying, "Never indeed has such illumination > arisen to me before now. <....> **And this illumination indeed arises in the > case of some bhikkhu illuminating just his seat,** .... S: If it was in the context of a discussion on pabhassara and illuminated rupas etc, this was the same passage that was referred to as well as some other very interesting detail a friend posted here before.... Maybe more under 'Pabhassara Sutta', I forget. Let me know if you and Mike have more to add/investigate - perhaps 'to be pursued' while we're away..... Thx as always, Connie. Some great accounts of the Theriis - the one who pushed her thieving husband over the cliff in the same life she became an arahant, Sihaa who had developed insight but had strong attachments, had the noose round her neck and then became an arahant. And the most wonderful of all to be read in full for everyone is Patacara's account...and the Buddha's great compassion and wisdom... I'll try to add more before leaving. Metta, Sarah ========= #70156 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Fri Mar 30, 2007 4:52 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Leading to stream entry ken_aitch Hi Han and Sarah, Maybe I haven't given it enough thought, but I don't see any problem with the Anathapindikovada Sutta. It seems to me that Anathapindika was one of those rare individuals with little dust in their eyes. He had heard many Dhamma-talks and practiced insight-development - maybe not in this lifetime, I don't know - but certainly in countless former lifetimes during former Buddha-sasanas. With just a few well- chosen words from the Buddha he was able to practice bhavana (directly know all conditioned namas and rupas as anicca dukkha and anatta) and thereby to attain Stream-entry. Every Stream-enterer has practised bhavana to the extent necessary to completely eradicate doubt and wrong view. However, they still have a great deal of work to do. Having weakened craving aversion and conceit, they now have to completely eradicate those remaining defilements. This was the area in which Anathapindika had not been coached. That is why he said, "Never before have I heard a talk on the Dhamma like this." He meant never before had he heard a talk specifically designed for the needs of a Stream-enterer. As I was saying, there might be something I am missing here, and maybe I have spoken too soon. :-) Ken H > > Han: I cannot refute Lily de Silva's statement that > "it is nowhere stated that he practiced mental culture > or meditation (bhavana)" because I also cannot find > it. I can only draw conclusions by inference. Please > examine the following passages I have taken from > http://mettanet.org/pali-utils/Pali-Proper-Names/anaathapindika.htm > > > (1) < The Buddha was staying in the Sítavana, and when > Anaathapindika reached there spirits opened the door > for him. He found the Buddha walking up and down, > meditating in the cool air of the early dawn. The > Buddha greeted him and talked to him on various > aspects of his teaching. Anaathapindika was > immediately converted and became a Sotaapanna.> > > Han: So it is possible that he became a Sotaapanna > without practicing bhavanaa. #70157 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Mar 30, 2007 5:00 am Subject: Taking a break.... buddhatrue Hi All, I am going to be taking a break from DSG for a few weeks to a few months. I may or may not read the posts, but I definitely won't be posting. I need a break. Metta, James #70158 From: connie Date: Fri Mar 30, 2007 5:01 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (47) nichiconn Dear Friends, #8 of 11 - Pa.taacaaraa: "Pacchime ca bhave daani, jaataa se.t.thikule aha.m; saavatthiya.m puravare, iddhe phiite mahaddhane. "Yadaa ca yobbanuupetaa, vitakkavasagaa aha.m; nara.m jaarapati.m disvaa, tena saddhi.m agacchaha.m. "Ekaputtapasuutaaha.m, dutiyo kucchiyaa mama; tadaaha.m maataapitaro, okkhaamiiti sunicchitaa. "Naarocesi.m pati.m mayha.m, tadaa tamhi pavaasite; ekikaa niggataa gehaa, gantu.m saavatthimuttama.m. "Tato me saami aagantvaa, sambhaavesi pathe mama.m; tadaa me kammajaa vaataa, uppannaa atidaaru.naa. And now, in my last existence, I was born in a rich, prosperous family of a wealthy merchant in the excellent town of Saavatthi. And when I became a young woman, I saw an adulterous man, and under the control of [licentious] thoughts, I went with him. I produced one son and a second one was in my womb. Then I decided, "I shall [go to] see my mother and father." I did not tell my husband. Then, when he was away from home, I left the house all alone to go to the excellent [town of] Saavatthi. After that my husband came home and caught up with me on the road. Then very powerful labour pains arose in me. "U.t.thito ca mahaamegho, pasuutisamaye mama; dabbatthaaya tadaa gantvaa, saami sappena maarito. "Tadaa vijaatadukkhena, anaathaa kapa.naa aha.m; kunnadi.m puurita.m disvaa, gacchantii sakulaalaya.m. "Baala.m aadaaya atari.m, paarakuule ca ekaka.m; saayetvaa baalaka.m putta.m, itara.m tara.naayaha.m. "Nivattaa ukkuso haasi, taru.na.m vilapantaka.m; itara~nca vahii soto, saaha.m sokasamappitaa. "Saavatthinagara.m gantvaa, assosi.m sajane mate; tadaa avoca.m soka.t.taa, mahaasokasamappitaa. And a storm cloud arose when I gave birth. Then my husband went for wood and was killed by a snake. Then wretched because of the misery of giving birth, without a protector, going towards my family home, I saw a small river in flood. I took [one] child and crossed to the far bank. I laid the child down alone on the far bank and went across for the other son. As I was returning, an osprey carried off the young one who was babbling, and the stream carried away the other one. I was overwhelmed with grief. Going to the town of Saavatthi, I heard that my kinsmen were dead. Then, afflicted by grief, overwhelmed with great grief, I said: "Ubho puttaa kaala"nkataa, panthe mayha.m patii mato; maataa pitaa ca bhaataa ca, ekacitamhi .dayhare. "Tadaa kisaa ca pa.n.du ca, anaathaa diinamaanasaa; ito tato bhamantiiha.m, addasa.m narasaarathi.m. "Tato avoca ma.m satthaa, putte maa soci assasa; attaana.m te gavesassu, ki.m nirattha.m viha~n~nasi. "Na santi puttaa taa.naaya, na ~naatii naapi bandhavaa; antakenaadhipannassa, natthi ~naatiisu taa.nataa. "Ta.m sutvaa munino vaakya.m, pa.thama.m phalamajjhaga.m; pabbajitvaana nacira.m, arahattamapaapu.ni.m. "Both my sons are dead. My husband is dead on the road. My mother and father and brother are being burnt on a single funeral pyre." Then I was thin and pale, without a protector, wretched in my mind. After that I roamed around, and I saw the Charioteer of Men. And the Teacher said to me, "O daughter, do not grieve. Have confidence. Seek yourself. Why are you grieved uselessly? "Neither sons nor a father nor relations are a shelter. Relatives are not a shelter for one who is seized by death." When I heard these words of the Sage, I attained the first fruition state. I went forth, and in a short time I attained Arahatship. == peace, connie #70159 From: connie Date: Fri Mar 30, 2007 5:01 am Subject: Re: Daana Corner & Vessantara panha nichiconn Dear Friends, continuing with the earthquake dilemna, Mr. Rhys-Davids' translates: 'But have you ever heard, O king, of the earth shaking, either now or in the past, and either once or twice or thrice, when a gift had been given?' 'No, Sir, that I have not heard of.' 'And I too, O king--though I have received the traditions, and been devoted to study, and to hearing the law, and to learning by heart, and to the acquirements of discipleship, and though I have been ready to learn, and to ask and to answer questions, and to sit at the feet of teachers--I too have never heard of such a thing, except only in the case of the splendid gift of Vessantara the glorious king. And between the times of Kassapa the Blessed One, and of the Blessed One the Sakya sage, there have rolled by hundreds of thousands of years, but in all that period I have heard of no such case. [116] It is at no common effort, O king, at no ordinary struggle, that the great earth is moved. It is when overborne by the weight of righteousness, overpowered by the burden of the goodness of acts which testify of absolute purity, that, unable to support it, the broad earth quakes and trembles and is moved. Then it is as when a wagon is overladen with a too heavy weight, and the nave and the spokes are split, and the axletree is broken in twain. Then it is as when the heavens, overspread with the waters of the tempest driven by the wind, and overweighted with the burden of the heaped-up rain-clouds, roar and creak and rage at the onset of the whirlwind. Thus was it, great king, that the broad earth, unable to support the unwonted burden of the heaped-up and wide-reaching force of king Vessantara's largesse, quaked and trembled and was moved. For the heart of king Vessantara was not turned in the way of lust, nor of ill-will, nor of dullness, nor of pride, nor of delusion, nor of sin, nor of disputation, nor of discontent, but it was turned mightily to generosity. And thinking: "Let all those who want, and who have not yet come, now arrive! Let all who come receive whate'er they want, and be filled with satisfaction!" it was on giving, ever and without end, that his mind was set. And on these ten conditions of heart, O king, was his mind too fixed--on self-control, and on inward calm, and on long-suffering, and on self-restraint, and on temperance, and on voluntary subjugation to meritorious vows, and on freedom from all forms of wrath and cruelty, and on truthfulness, and on purity of heart. He had abandoned, O king, all seeking after the satisfaction of his animal lusts, he had overcome all craving after a future life, his strenuous effort was set only towards the higher life. He had given up, O king, the caring for himself, and devoted himself thenceforth to caring for others alone. His mind was fixed immovably on the thought: "How can I make all beings to be at peace, healthy, and wealthy, and long lived?" [117] And when, O king, he was giving things away, he gave not for the sake of rebirth in any glorious state, he gave not for the sake of wealth, nor of receiving gifts in return, nor of flattery, nor of long life for himself, nor of high birth, nor of happiness, nor of power, nor of fame, nor of offspring either of daughters or of sons--but it was for the sake of supreme wisdom and of the treasure thereof that he gave gifts so immense, so immeasurable, so unsurpassed. It was when he had attained to that supreme wisdom that he uttered the verse: "Gali, my son, and the Black Antelope, My daughter, and my queen, my wife, Maddi, I gave them all away without a thought-- And 'twas for Buddhahood I did this thing 1."' footnote 174:1 From the Kariyaa Pitaka I, ix, 52. See Dr. Morris's edition for the Paali Text Society, p. 81. end of today's extract from www.sacred-texts.com/bud/sbe35/sbe3512.htm === ... and the bus driver turns around to go back to the question at the beginning of this exerpt to point out that the earth is also said to have quaked when the Mahameghavana was given to the Sangha (www.palikanon.com/english/pali_names/maha/mahameghavana.htm). Also perhaps beside the point, when Buddha put on the robe Punna had given him, which was later given to Kassapa (see www.palikanon.com/english/pali_names/maha/maha_kassapa_th.ht where the earth "trembles" when he and his wife "split up" and "quakes" when he puts on the robe in question). peace, connie #70160 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Mar 30, 2007 1:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Letters on Vipassana 11, no 2. upasaka_howard Hi, Phil (and Scott, and James also) - In a message dated 3/30/07 1:40:46 AM Eastern Standard Time, philco777@... writes: > Hi Scott > > > What's wrong with detachment, anyway? > > This is a key point. Personally, I think the notion of "detachment" > through thinking/reflecting on dhammas is a bit of a fantasy that we > can become aware of. If we go around thinking about "detachment", > with all our development of Dhamma in our noggins, when > circumstances whack us, our supposed detachement will be revealed as > very false. > > On the other hand, I think if we follow the Buddha's advice to > develop mindfulness of the body, we will (or are more likely) to > develop something very solid in which conditions are laid down > through which a real detachment can take root. A real shelter, a > refuge. We need a less sublime refuge before we can find refuge > in "detachment." I think we are better off not thinking > about "detachemnt." It is not for the likes of us, busy householders > who do not have conditions to be deeply absorbed in practice. > > Just my opinion. Won't be able to discuss, as I am one post away > from my break, but please reflect on "detachment" and whether Acharn > Sujin's "there must be detachment from the beginning" is not in fact > a bit nonsensical. > > Metta, > > Phil > ========================= Let me put aside for a bit the matter of Khun Sujin and her personal perspective on the Dhamma, which seems to me to be expressed varyingly at various times, and instead, zero in, impersonally, on two of your points, Phil. I quite agree that the view that "there must be detachment from the beginning" is seriously in error, because, in fact, there is NOT detachment from the beginning. There is quite the opposite. We begin bound in chains. And that being the case, if there did indeed have to be detachment from the beginning, the goal would be unattainable - unless one were to join a Pure Land sect and depend on the "grace" of Amitabha Buddha! ;-) The second matter that I'd like to point to is the virtue of a practice of mindfulness of the body. It is extremely effective, and it leads to far more than insight only into the body. It is a means of full practice. In this regard, I strongly recommend a rereading of http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.119.than.html, the Kayagata-sati Sutta: Mindfulness Immersed in the Body. This teaching provides a complete practice that leads to awakening, and, interestingly, it subsumes direct mindfulness practice, intellectual contemplation, and mastery of jhanas, with the various facets of the practice mutually supportive. It is a marveous, in-tandem approach to Dhamma practice, IMO, that has the special virtue of being centered on attention to rupas, which, among other benefits, serves to keep the practitioner "grounded". Actually, mindfulness of the body is exactly my practice, and I can tell you from personal experience, that it brings with it the other foundations of mindfulness. With metta Howard #70161 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Mar 30, 2007 5:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Taking a break.... jonoabb Hi James buddhatrue wrote: > Hi All, > > I am going to be taking a break from DSG for a few weeks to a few > months. I may or may not read the posts, but I definitely won't be > posting. I need a break. > > Metta, > James > Are you sure you need a break? I thought you were handling things well, and your posts have been generally mild (for James posts ;-)) and well stated. Take it day by day, and see how it goes. Jon #70162 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Mar 30, 2007 1:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Daana Corner (25) upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 3/30/07 2:00:57 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > While I'm away, perhaps you and James can try to find a common definition > of what you mean by meditation as a translation of bhavana - one that > particularly covers 'the path of insight' in the context of the > 'meritorious deeds'. That would be helpful. > ======================== Possibly helpful, yet maybe not. If we say it is exactly "this" but not "that", we are likely to be in error. Also, there is no reason to assume that the two of us, James and I, would agree on a common definition. But the bottom line is that I'm a bit wary of very precise, hard & fast definitions outside of mathematics and certain sciences, for I think they often serve more as blinders than clarifiers. They often serve just to narrow ones view in an unhelpful way. BTW, Sarah, when exactly will you be leaving? I recall it's around April 3? Will you be able to check in from time to time? With metta, Howard #70163 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Mar 30, 2007 1:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Defilements: can there be awareness of them? upasaka_howard Hi, Robert - In a message dated 3/30/07 2:16:45 AM Eastern Standard Time, rjkjp1@... writes: > Dear Howard > I see. I should say though that I disagree that awareness cannot arise > instantly, I would be happy to discuss the topic if you wish. > Robert > ======================== I also disagree with an assertion that awareness cannot arise instantly! My point is that this does not readily occur, but requires cultivation. It is already "advanced" functioning. With metta, Howard #70164 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Mar 30, 2007 6:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Daana Corner (25) sarahprocter... Hi James (& Howard), --- buddhatrue wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott > wrote: > > > While I'm away, perhaps you and James can try to find a common > definition > > of what you mean by meditation as a translation of bhavana > > Hmmm...well, that's a tall order. Probably impossible. As I wrote to > you, I think the definitions of meditation and bhavana are rather > vague. See for example this page from Wikipedia which > defines "Buddhist Meditation" (it is all over the map! ;-)): > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_meditation .... S: ;-)) Yes, I see. I'd still be interested to follow a discussion between you and Howard trying to find some common ground. The point is that if there is no common ground in how you both use the word 'meditation' as a translation of bhavana, even though you both agree on many aspects of the teachings, then is there any purpose in using it? Metta, Sarah p.s Howard, we go on Monday nite (2nd)for just under 3 wks. Jon's taking his computer, so we hope to be able to follow along and will send e-cards when we can. Will be checking personal accounts too, I'm sure....amongst the Sahara surfing.... ======== #70165 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Mar 30, 2007 6:51 am Subject: Re: Letters on Vipassana 11, no 2. scottduncan2 Dear Phil, Please don't worry about: P: "Scott, after posting about getting "whacked by circumstances" I remembered that you were whacked in a very hard way indeed and I have no right to talk to you about detachment one has or doesn't have in the face of tragedy, hard times etc." Scott: I think you do have a right to talk about that, or anything else. I remember knowing nothing of detachment at the time of my wife's death. I don't think there was much then. P: "Also in my post the bit about mindfulness of the body came up off the top of my head but was a bit off topic. What I wanted to write was more like I've written above. I know you and everyone else has heard this sort of thing a thousand times here and you won't be convinved but just thought I'd lay it down again." Scott: Its fine, Phil, thanks. As I've so noticeably opined, I don't think its what one says, its how one says it. Sincerely, Scott. #70166 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Mar 30, 2007 7:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Taking a break.... nilovg Hi James, I was just going to write to you. I will all the same. I enjoy your dialogues with Scott. Lodewijk said that your are intelligent and he also said: James always has a point. Nina. Op 30-mrt-2007, om 14:01 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > I am going to be taking a break from DSG for a few weeks #70167 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Mar 30, 2007 7:51 am Subject: Letters on Vipassana 11, no 2, precepts. nilovg Hi James , -------- (about the rules of the Vinaya): James: I disagree. Those rules are meant to cultivate wisdom. Those rules are a teaching just as the suttas. --------- N: I am happy you say this. The deep meaning of the Vinaya is to help the monks to reach arahatship. Even rules that seem to touch unimportant things of daily life like sweeping, washing robes, etc. I think that Vinaya and satipatthana should not be separated. The monks should develop vipassana during all their activities. --------- Kh Sujin > wanted to point out that a person with clinging to self wants to set > rules, like good speech. James: Again, I disagree. The setting of rules is not "clinging to self", it is actually quite the opposite. Rules of conduct are a way to relinquish selfish desires. ------ N: That is true. But the word rule is used differently in a different context. Kh Sujin wanted to show us a subtle point and I understand that people do not always get this. She was not referring to the precepts she also highly regards, but to certain ways people follow. The think that they must do this or that to have result of their practice. Again, this is a subtle point. Clinging to self is often unnoticed, it slips in and plays tricks. It is an enemy that pretends to be a friend. I am always grateful she reminds us of this. ----------- James: The Buddha taught the five precepts and said that we must follow them-- no ifs, ands, or buts about it. ----------- N: The precepts are not rules imposed upon people. See the wording: I undertake the training to...: sikkhaapada.m samaadiyaami. I liked it that you mentioned to Scott the sobhana cetasikas of hiri and ottappa. They arise with other sobhana cetasikas and are fortified by them, such as confidence in kusala, saddhaa, and also sati, and detachment. Yes, detachment, alobha, is a root for each kusala citta. Pa~n~naa does not always accompany kusala citta, but if it does it greatly fortifies kusala. To conclude, a quote about siila from Kh Sujin's Perfections and this shows the connection between siila and understanding : < The transgression of morality, síla, such as killing, stealing, sexual misconduct, is motivated by akusala: by attachment (lobha), aversion (dosa), and ignorance (moha). When someone commits evil deeds he lacks mettå, loving-kindness towards others. All akusala kammas are conditioned by clinging to visible object, sound, smell, flavour, tangible object and the wrong view that there is self, being or person. The streamwinner who has realized the four noble Truths and attained the first stage of enlightenment, has eradicated the defilements in accordance with that stage of enlightenment. He observes the five precepts perfectly, he cannot transgress them anymore. If one is not a streamwinner which precepts can one observe? Even before we are a streamwinner, we should not transgress the precepts. The coarse defilements can be subdued and worn away until paññå will be developed to the degree of a perfection and is able to realize the four noble Truths. The perfection of síla is an excellent quality, a supporting condition for reaching the further shore, namely the eradication of defilements. > Nina. #70168 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Mar 30, 2007 7:54 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Agreeable and Disagreeable scottduncan2 Dear Larry, Its morning... L: "Try again. What is your understanding of the categories 'agreeable and disagreeable', giving examples?" Scott: ...I'm no further ahead. I think that the problem lies in the difficulty knowing kusala from akusala. Kusala-vipaaka-citta, for example, relates directly to kusala kamma - do I have this right? If so, almost every example I can think of becomes ambiguous given that it seems very difficult to tell the difference between true kusala and true akusala as opposed to citta rooted in clinging or aversion. Theoretically, I'm still sitting with the idea that the 'real' quality of an experience in any of the five sense-doors can only be determined by knowing the nature of the moments of consciousness prior to javana. I'm thinking, and I don't know for sure, that it is only at this point that the link between the kamma and the vipaaka, whether kusala or akusala, is 'pure' and, hence, accurately definable. Once the impulsion is underway, I understand this to consist of different sorts of cittas - those with roots - and then we're into kamma again. This is still a big question for me, though, and one I guess I'm asking. I need to learn more about the initial moments of sense-door process. I need to learn more about the impulsion just following. In the case of the music, for example - finding track five agreeable but track one to be disagreeable - my experience is post-hoc, if you know what I mean. Its now based on the illusion wholes and the idea of music that I either experience as pleasant or unpleasant. Where does one look to find the agreeable or disagreeable? I thought for a moment that the experience of the Dhamma might be an example which might afford more clarity, but then we're back into ambiguity since my experience of Dhamma will only be based on accumulations and conditions unique to that experience. That being said, the two strongest examples I can think of are: 1. The illness and death of my wife. I'll say akusala-vipaaka. 2. Encountering the Dhamma. I'll say kusala-vipaaka. I'll add that the former was condition for the latter, just to complicate things. Can you work with the above? I'd appreciate any texts and stuff you can point me towards, as well as your take on it. Sincerely, Scott. #70169 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Mar 30, 2007 8:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Letters on Vipassana 11, no 2. dry insight nilovg Hi James, We have had here many posts on dry insight, the attainment of arahatship without the development of mundane jhana being necessary. As I said to Matheesha, I recommend Wheel publication 351/353, where you find a deepgoing study of jhana. Ven. Henepola also quotes the Susimasutta with Co. where it is explained that there were also arahats with dry insight. the Buddha praised samatha and vipassana. He did not say: everybody should develop both. I repost an old post of mine, taken from Rob's Forum: < "Whether you know it, friend Susima, or whether you do not know it, we have been freed by insight." Susima went to the Buddha who explained to him: "First comes knowledge of the law of cause (and effect) , afterwards comes knowledge about nibbana." The Buddha then asked him whether the body is permanent or impermanent, and whether what is impermanent is dukkha or pleasant, sukha, and whether one can take what is impermanent and dukkha for self. The Buddha asked him the same about the other khandhas, aggregates, and then taught him the Dependent Origination in order and in reverse order, which mmeans that with the ceasing of ignorance there is the end of the cycle of birth and death. The Buddha then asked him whether when he would know this, he would enjoy the supramundane powers, and whether he could attain arupa-jhana, he answered that he could not. The Buddha said: "Here then, Susima:- this catechism and the non-attainment of these things:-this is what we have done. "> ------- The puggala pa~n~natti, the Abhidhamma book on Human Types explains in 'by Threes', 15: N: the sotaapanna has fulfilled siila, he does not transgress the five precepts.The anaagami has fulfilled calm, because he has eradicated attachment to sense-pleasures. This is also the case if he has not developed jhaana. By nature he is calm. The arahat has fulfilled sila, samaadhi and also perfect insight. --------- As to the question: should everybody develop jhana: see the same book, the fours, 26: After this a person who attains both and a person who attains neither are mentioned. Here we see that by sukkha vipassana enlightenment can be attained. All arahats have eradicated the defilements completely, but they have different degrees of qualities. Some have mastery of all jhanas and also the four discriminations, some have mastery of all jhanas but are not endowed with the dircriminations, some are sukkha vipassaka. ****** Nina. Op 29-mrt-2007, om 14:27 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > Guess I should have been more specific. We were discussing the > complete elimination of the defilements, for which jhana is necessary. #70170 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Mar 30, 2007 12:03 pm Subject: Rupas Ch 5, no 3. nilovg Dear friends, Life faculty, the rúpa which is jívitindriya, is also a subtle rúpa produced by kamma from the first moment of life and throughout life [2] . Since this kind of rúpa is produced solely by kamma, it arises only in living beings, not in plants [3]. It is a “controlling faculty” (indriya), it has a dominating influence over the other rúpas it arises together with since it maintains their life. The “Visuddhimagga” (XIV, 59) states about life faculty : The life faculty has the characteristic of maintaining conascent kinds of matter. Its function is to make them occur. It is manifested in the establishing of their presence. Its proximate cause is primary elements that are to be sustained. Life faculty maintains the other rúpas it arises together with in one group, and then it falls away together with them. The “Visuddhimagga” (in the same section) states: It does not prolong presence at the moment of dissolution because it is itself dissolving, like the flame of a lamp when the wick and the oil are getting used up.... We cling to our body as something alive. Rúpas of a “living body” have a quality lacking in dead matter or plants, they are supported by the life faculty. We are inclined to take this quality for “self”, but it is only a rúpa produced by kamma. The heart-base (hadayavatthu) is another rúpa produced solely by kamma. In the planes of existence where there are nåma and rúpa cittas have a physical place of origin, a base (vatthu). Seeing- consciousness has as its base the eye-base, the rúpa which is eyesense, and evenso have the other sense-cognitions their appropriate bases where they arise. Apart from the sense-bases there is another base: the heart-base. This is the place of origin for all cittas other than the sense-cognitions. At the first moment of life the rebirth-consciousness (paìisandhi- citta) which arises is produced by kamma. If this citta arises in a plane of existence where there are nåma and rúpa it must have a base: this is the heart-base, which is produced by kamma. Kamma produces this rúpa from the first moment of life and throughout life. ----------- footnotes: 2. There is nåma-jívitindriya and rúpa-jívitindriya. Nåma- jívitindriya is a cetasika among the “universals”, cetasikas which accompany every citta. 3. Plants consist of rúpas produced by temperature or the element of heat. ****** Nina. #70171 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Mar 30, 2007 12:07 pm Subject: Letters on Vipassana 11, no 7. nilovg Dear friends, Khun Sujin said that one actually lives alone and that it is most helpful to realize this. We have heard this before, but it becomes more meaningful when there is more understanding of the difference between the moment the object of citta is a paramattha dhamma and the moment we are thinking of a concept of a person or a thing. If we are disturbed by other people it seems that there are people, but what is the reality? Only a citta which thinks. When we are back to the present reality, the paramattha dhamma, we know that we are living alone, and such a moment is beneficial. In the ultimate sense there are nåma and rúpa, no people. When we are thinking, we live in our own world of thinking. No matter in the past, in this life or the next life, one always lives alone. During the discussions Khun Sujin stressed that we should see dhamma as dhamma. We may say that everything is dhamma, just a reality, but right understanding has to grow through awareness of realities, so that they can be seen as just dhammas, no person or thing, no self. We have to hear this again and again, but Såriputta, when he heard a few sentences about realities, understood immediately and realized dhamma as dhamma. He had accumulated paññå for aeons. We read in the “Vinaya” (Book of the Discipline, Part 4, Mahåvagga I, 23, 3-5) that Såriputta asked Assaji what the doctrine was the Buddha had taught him. Assaji answered that he was not long gone forth and could therefore not teach dhamma in full, but only briefly. Såriputta asked him to explain the meaning of it, saying that he did not need a great elaboration. We read: Then the venerable Assaji uttered this terse expression of dhamma to the wanderer Såriputta: “Those dhammas which proceed from a cause (hetu), of these the Truthfinder has told the cause. And that which is their stopping (nirodho)- the great recluse has such a doctrine.” When the wanderer Såriputta had heard this terse expression of dhamma, there arose dhamma-vision, dustless, stainless, that “Whatever is of the nature to uprise all that is of the nature to stop.” He said: “If this is indeed dhamma, you have penetrated as far as the sorrowless path, unseen, neglected for many myriads of aeons.” Såriputta understood directly the four noble Truths: dukkha, the cause of dukkha, its ceasing and the way leading to its ceasing. ***** Nina. #70172 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Fri Mar 30, 2007 5:05 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Agreeable and Disagreeable ken_aitch Hi Scott and Larry, --------- S: > Its morning... ---------- And your conscience is clear. :-) I think your previous examples of agreeable/disagreeable were excellent. Larry is making you work for harder, however, and we will all benefit from that. The more examples, the merrier. ---------------- > L: "Try again. What is your understanding of the categories 'agreeable and disagreeable', giving examples?" Scott: ...I'm no further ahead. I think that the problem lies in the difficulty knowing kusala from akusala. Kusala-vipaaka-citta, for example, relates directly to kusala kamma - do I have this right? If so, almost every example I can think of becomes ambiguous given that it seems very difficult to tell the difference between true kusala and true akusala as opposed to citta rooted in clinging or aversion. ------------------ I find that very helpful. Correct me if I am wrong, but I think your point is that knowing kusala from akusala can be very hard, and so, how much harder would it be to know the agreeable results of the hard- to-know kusala from the disagreeable results of the hard-to-know akusala? --------------------- S: > Theoretically, I'm still sitting with the idea that the 'real' quality of an experience in any of the five sense-doors can only be determined by knowing the nature of the moments of consciousness prior to javana. I'm thinking, and I don't know for sure, that it is only at this point that the link between the kamma and the vipaaka, whether kusala or akusala, is 'pure' and, hence, accurately definable. Once the impulsion is underway, I understand this to consist of different sorts of cittas - those with roots - and then we're into kamma again. This is still a big question for me, though, and one I guess I'm asking. I need to learn more about the initial moments of sense-door process. I need to learn more about the impulsion just following. ----------------------- You have gone into that a bit more deeply than I have, so I will take your word for it. :-) Those functional cittas between vipaka and impulsion depend on one's accumulations don't they? (Rather than just on the nature of the vipaka?) ------------------------------ S: > In the case of the music, for example - finding track five agreeable but track one to be disagreeable - my experience is post-hoc, if you know what I mean. Its now based on the illusion wholes and the idea of music that I either experience as pleasant or unpleasant. Where does one look to find the agreeable or disagreeable? ------------------------------ A rhetorical question, no doubt, but at the risk of stating the obvious I will suggest an answer: We don't `look' for dhammas – we understand them. (Or don't understand them - depending on conditions.) --------------------- S: > I thought for a moment that the experience of the Dhamma might be an example which might afford more clarity, but then we're back into ambiguity since my experience of Dhamma will only be based on accumulations and conditions unique to that experience. That being said, the two strongest examples I can think of are: 1. The illness and death of my wife. I'll say akusala-vipaaka. 2. Encountering the Dhamma. I'll say kusala-vipaaka. I'll add that the former was condition for the latter, just to complicate things. Can you work with the above? I'd appreciate any texts and stuff you can point me towards, as well as your take on it. ---------------------- Yes; two more helpful examples, thank you. We can't look for, and point at, dhammas or their characteristics, but we understand what they are like. We understand, for example, how it feels to encounter something disagreeable and then something agreeable. Ken H #70173 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Mar 30, 2007 5:25 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Agreeable and Disagreeable lbidd2 Hi Scott, We might ask, what difference does it make to know whether a vipaka citta is kusala or akusala? It makes no difference at all for insight. "Agreeable and disagreeable" are not characteristics of dhammas. When we hear some sounds, those sounds are just sounds; the hearing is conditioned by contact; it arises and ceases, and is therefore not self. I think the usefulness of "agreeable and disagreeable" is just in gaining confidence in kamma; showing, somewhat, that kamma really works. The idea is that an evil deed will produce an unfortunate destiny. Akusala vipaka citta is the unfortunate destiny. It is disagreeable. So the question is how do we define the fortunate and the unfortunate. Kamma doesn't have this question. An akusala kamma patha will eventually produce an unfortunate destiny. My understanding of the CMA passage in question is that "the unfortunate" is largely determined by society. That is not to say that society creates akusala vipaka citta, but rather kamma conditions the arising of an akusala vipaka citta in that particular society. If you are born with a big nose in a society of small nosed people, that is considered to be unfortunate. The same the other way around, small nose in a society of big nosed people. Of course you can always get your nose changed; you can move to a different society; or society's values could change. This doesn't mean you are changing your destiny, but rather your destiny is changing you. However, it doesn't really do you much good to figure out how you are doing now, to figure out whether you are fortunate or unfortunate, because "now" was conditioned long ago and the die is cast. What you want to be concerned with is today's kamma. If this doesn't make sense I think Jon and possibly Nina have different views. I don't know of any other textual references. Or you could try to figure it out yourself: what is "the fortunate"? Larry #70174 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Fri Mar 30, 2007 8:10 pm Subject: Re: Letters on Vipassana 11, no 2. ken_aitch --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, chandra fabian wrote: > > Dear Friends, > > Count me in as a person who support Kh Sujin comments about this > topic, one of subtler defilement is hatred toward your own > defilements. Hi Fabian, Good to see you posting again. ------------- F: > defilements is natural for a person who still see things or phenomena with concepts, ------------- Yes, a clear understanding of the difference between concepts and realities is a necessary first step. --------------------- F: > the nature of this phenomenon can be realised when you progress further in Vipassana, and by that time you can see defilements arise because attachment or reactions to all forms of mental or physical phenomena, the problems usually arise if you refuse or accept them when they arise, and cling to them. ---------------------- I agree; they arise because there are conditions for them to arise; there is no point in being antagonistic towards them. Likewise, wholesome dhammas arise when there are conditions for them to arise, and there is no point in being attached to them. ----------------------------- F: > The right understanding towards these defilements is aware of their presence without reacting ----------------------------- I think I know what you mean, but isn't there is always a reaction of some kind? For example, right understanding and equanimity are, as I understand them, reactions of a wholesome nature. Even lobha (non- attachment) is not the mere absence of attachment-reaction. It is a mental factor and it reacts to its object. ------------------ F: > and see it when they disappear also without reacting, this understanding sometimes known as "seeing things as they really are" ------------------- I get the impression you are talking about something we can "do" in order to see things as they really are. Many people think it helps to sit still and to quieten the mind to a point where it seems to observe things without reacting. But I think the idea of doing something misses the point of the Buddha's teaching. That is, that dhammas arise, perform their functions, and fall away purely by conditions. They neither need nor receive any help from a self or controlling entity. Ken H #70175 From: han tun Date: Fri Mar 30, 2007 8:18 pm Subject: Daana Corner (30) hantun1 Dear Dhamma Friends, The following is “Giving from the Heart” by M. O'C. Walshe. M.O'C. Walshe has been an active Buddhist since 1951 and is a past chairman of the English Sangha Trust. He is the author of numerous articles on Buddhism and translator of the complete Digha Nikaya under the title Thus Have I Heard: The Long Discourses of the Buddha (London: Wisdom, 1987). The “Giving from the Heart” will be presented in four parts. The following is 1 of 4 parts. Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ------------------------------ Giving comes very naturally to some people — they enjoy giving and are unhappy if they cannot do so. And though it is obvious that one can give foolishly, it is in general a very good and meritorious thing to give. This is recognized in, probably, all religions: in Christianity we are told that it is more blessed to give than to receive, and in Islam there is a positive injunction to give part of one's wealth to the poor. Perhaps, however, we ought to start by squarely facing a point which may worry some people: the question of giving to the Sangha. In a phrase which lay Buddhists may frequently hear chanted, or even chant themselves, the Sangha is described as anuttaram punnakkhettam lokassa, "an unequalled field of merit-making for the world," meaning that the merit to be gained by giving to the Sangha is unequalled. Well of course, not all the lay people who hear or join in such chanting know what the words mean, but of those who do, Westerners who are Buddhists or Buddhist sympathizers sometimes react to this notion with a degree of indignation, considering the words tactless or worse! In fact some, whose conditioning was at least partly under the influence of the Lutheran Christian tradition, are reminded of the abuses to which Martin Luther objected in the Church of his day, when "good deeds" were very largely associated in the popular mind with maintaining priests and monks, who in some cases at least were idle and corrupt, in the style to which they were accustomed. Such misgivings are perhaps understandable, but can be countered by a proper explanation, and will in any case not take root provided the Sangha is patently seen to be well conducted (supatipanno). The traditional Buddhist community consists of four groups: monks, nuns, male and female lay followers. Though the original order of nuns has died out, there are women who have undertaken the holy life and live virtually as nuns, and there is every indication that their numbers will grow. The relation between the first two groups and the latter two is one of symbiosis. After all, the Sangha has a priceless gift to give, the gift of the Dhamma. Sabbadanam dhammadanam jinati: "The gift of the Dhamma excels all other gifts" (Dhp. 354). Members of the Sangha also have an inescapable obligation to live according to the Vinaya and to strive continuously for enlightenment. It is in fact only by so doing that they can claim to be "an unequalled field of merit-making," and if they fail in this obligation they are letting down not only themselves but also the laity who support them. A monk or nun who cannot observe the rules should, and in certain cases must, leave the Order. This could be regarded, at least in part, as the price to be paid for abusing the generosity of lay supporters. “Giving from the Heart” by M. O'C. Walshe to be continued. Metta, Han #70176 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Mar 30, 2007 9:51 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Letters on Vipassana 11, no 2. sarahprocter... Hi Scott & all, In response to a note I sent James off-listt, he wrote the following: ..... James: >I just want to take a break. Too much drama for me. :-) I unsubscribed so I won't be able to post. I will probably still read the posts. I have taken a second teaching job and I need to start focusing more on learning Chinese, so I break would be good. BTW, I sent this post to DSG and it didn't go through. Maybe you can post it for me. Thanks: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Dear James, > > Thanks for your reply. > > J: "The tone of this post is condescending so I will not be responding > to it." > > Scott: Don't like it, eh? This is the tone you use, James. You don't > recognise it? Don't dish it out if you can't take it. I thought > everyone knew about that little rule of thumb. I guess an apology was too much to expect. LOL! Okay, then I will offer the apology. I'm sorry that I offended you. I truly didn't know that I was. Let's have no hard feelings. Take care. Metta, James ================== #70177 From: "gazita2002" Date: Fri Mar 30, 2007 11:34 pm Subject: Re: Letters on Vipassana 11, no 2. gazita2002 Hello Robert, Phil and others Yes, I have heard A.Sujin say that there must be detachment from the beginning, and have not heard the bit about alobha, but of course it makes sense, as 'we' cannot make detachment happen, just like that. I think this is where some people perhaps misunderstand what is meant. IMO only by hearing over and over again, that there is noone who can make detachment-alobha- arise, or make anything arise for that matter, will there be some acceptance of things the way they are, without trying to change it to be something else. I've also heard Achan say that we are always running away from this present moment and that sure fits for me. The very thought that we cant change anything that has arisen and that we have no chance of changing future events, is a bit challanging for folks to accept; however until we do see/understand this there will never be any detachment, we will continue on in the endless round of birth and death, trying to control and - this is one of your comment [your own or someones else's i'm not sure] "if we start a little bit off target then way down the track we will be a long way off - like the arrow shot from the bow, a lttle off target". BTW a nice ending to our awful TV news [war etc] was an item about the cherry blossoms coming out in bloom in Japan, and I thought of you both who live there. Hope all goes well Patience, courage and good cheer, azita > > but please reflect on "detachment" and whether Acharn > > Sujin's "there must be detachment from the beginning" is not in fact > > a bit nonsensical. > ___________ > Dear Phil > I think you believe Khun Sujin means that when beginning to study > Dhamma one should be like an anagami who has no attachment to sense > objects, but this is not the case at all. > When she says that "there must be detachment from the beginning" she is > referring to the fact that all maha kusala cittas come with lobha (non- > attachment) rather than lobha, attachment. It is not uncommon for new > comers to Buddhism to make great efforts, but if the effort is > associated with cittas rooted in lobha they are going in the wrong > direction. > Robert > > > #70178 From: connie Date: Sat Mar 31, 2007 4:57 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (47) nichiconn Dear Friends, 9/11 Pa.taacaaraa -- "Iddhiisu ca vasii homi, dibbaaya sotadhaatuyaa; paracittaani jaanaami, satthusaasanakaarikaa. "Pubbenivaasa.m jaanaami, dibbacakkhu visodhita.m; khepetvaa aasave sabbe, visuddhaasi.m sunimmalaa. "Tatoha.m vinaya.m sabba.m, santike sabbadassino; uggahi.m sabbavitthaara.m, byaahari~nca yathaatatha.m. "Jino tasmi.m gu.ne tu.t.tho, etadagge .thapesi ma.m; aggaa vinayadhaariina.m, pa.taacaaraava ekikaa. "Parici.n.no mayaa satthaa, kata.m buddhassa saasana.m; ohito garuko bhaaro, bhavanetti samuuhataa. I have mastery of the supernormal powers. By means of the divine ear, I know the thoughts of others. I carry out the Teacher's teachings; I know my previous lives; my divine eye has been purified. Having destroyed all the taints, I am pure, completely freed of impurity. Then I learned all the discipline in [the Teacher's] presence, perceiving all, all the detail, I recited it as it was. The Conqueror was pleased with this quality and placed me as foremost of those who know the discipline, [saying], "Pa.taacaaraa is unique." I have attended on the Teacher. I have done the Buddha's teaching. I have put down the heavy burden; everything that leads to renewed existence has been rooted out. "Yassatthaaya pabbajitaa, agaarasmaanagaariya.m; so me attho anuppatto, sabbasa.myojanakkhayo. "Kilesaa jhaapitaa mayha.m {, bhavaa sabbe samuuhataa; naagiiva bandhana.m chetvaa, viharaami anaasavaa. "Svaagata.m vata me aasi, buddhase.t.thassa santike; tisso vijjaa anuppattaa, kata.m buddhassa saasana.m. "Pa.tisambhidaa catasso, vimokkhaapi ca a.t.thime; cha.labhi~n~naa sacchikataa,} kata.m buddhassa saasanan"ti. The aim for which one goes forth from the home to the homeless state, that aim has been attained by me - all bonds are destroyed. My defilements are burnt out, {all [future] births are completely destroyed. Having severed my bonds like an elephant, I live without taints. Welcome indeed was the presence of the Best of Buddhas to me. I have attained the three true knowledges. I have done the Buddha's teaching. The four discriminations and also the eight liberations are mine. I have realized the six direct knowledges.} I have done the Buddha's teaching. === peace, connie #70179 From: connie Date: Sat Mar 31, 2007 4:56 am Subject: Re: Daana Corner & Vessantara panha nichiconn Dear Dear! Still more on Vessantara's Earthquake: 38. 'The angry man, O king, did the great king Vessantara conquer by mildness, and the wicked man by goodness, and the covetous by generosity, and the speaker of falsehood by truth, and all evil did he overcome by righteousness 1. When he was thus giving away--he who was seeking after righteousness, who had made righteousness his aim--then were the great winds, on which the earth rests below, agitated by the full force of the power of the influence that resulted from his generosity, and little by little, one by one, the great winds began to blow confusedly, and up and down and towards each side the earth swayed, and the mighty trees rooted in the soil 2 began to totter, and masses of cloud were heaped together in the sky, and terrible winds arose laden with dust, and the heavens rushed together, and hurricanes blew with violent blasts, and a great and terrible mighty noise was given forth. And at the raging of those winds, the waters little by little began to move, and at the movement of the waters the great fish and the scaly creatures were disturbed, and the waves began to roll in double breakers, and the beings that dwell in the waters were seized with fear and as the breakers rushed together in pairs the roar of the ocean grew loud, and the spray was lashed into fury, and garlands of foam arose, and the great ocean opened to its depths, and the waters rushed hither and thither, the furious crests of their waves meeting this way and that; and the Asuras, and Garulas, and Yakkhas, and Nagas 3 shook with fear, and thought in their alarm: "What now! How now! is the great ocean being turned upside down?" and sought, with terrified hearts, for a way of escape. And as the water on which it rests 1 was troubled and agitated, then the broad earth began to shake, and with it the mountain ranges and the ocean depths, [118] and Sineru began to revolve, and its rocky mountain crest became twisted. And at the trembling of the earth, the serpents, and mungooses, and cats, and jackals, and boars, and deer, and birds became greatly distressed, and the Yakkhas of inferior power wept, while those of greater power were merry. footnotes: 175:1 On this sentiment Mr. Trenckner calls attention to the analogous phrases at Dhammapada, verse 223. 175:2 Siinapattaa: which the Simhalese renders polo talehi kal gewii patra woetiimata poeminiyaawu wrikshayo. 175:3 Fabulous beings supposed to occupy these fabulous waters. 176:1 This conception of the earth resting on water and the water on air is Indian, and forms no part of distinctively Buddhist teaching. == following which, we turn to Narada Maha Thera's translation of Dhammapada: verse 23 Conquer anger by love. Conquer evil by good. Conquer the stingy by giving. Conquer the liar by truth. story 223 The junior mistress of a husband grew jealous of the senior mistress and did a great wrong to her, but the latter did not get angry. Later, the former repented and sought pardon from the latter. She replied that she would pardon her if she would implore pardon from the Buddha. This she did, and the Buddha admonished them. ========================= peace, connie #70180 From: "Phil" Date: Sat Mar 31, 2007 6:18 am Subject: Re: Letters on Vipassana 11, no 2. philofillet HI Azita > IMO only by hearing over and over again, that there is noone who > can make detachment-alobha- arise, or make anything arise for that > matter, will there be some acceptance of things the way they are, > without trying to change it to be something else. But Azita, the Buddha really, really doesn't teach us that we should accept things the way they are. There are so many suttas in which we are urged to look at our conditioned ways of thinking, and follow certain recommended practices in order to challenge and redirect these patterns of thinking that cause us, adn others, so much harm. Suttas in which (to give one example) we are encouraged to identify hateful thoughts, or lustful thoughts, thoughts that are harmful to ourselves, to others, and both, and to DROP THEM. We can do that. We can redirect the way our minds flow in certain directions. We can develop healthier habits of body, speech and mind. And by doing that - it is very clear in the suttanta, at least - there is less remorse, and more of factors that support the factors that are necessary for the understanding that leads to real detachment. There are other suttas in which we are urged to take a very intentional look at what is *often* going on in our minds. )*often* I can't stress that enough) and to seek to change it. That *often* means that the Buddha is urging us to look at our life in conventional terms, and to make changes. Paramattha dhammas, understanding them - it's all so sexy and deep. But I think, as I've so often said, that this attractiveness of wisdom that directly understands the chracterstics of paramattha dhammas in a moment that rises and falls is a kind of fantasy for people like us, and is absolutely insufficient for providing moral guidance and protection. I think for the epitome of the Acharn Sujin approach, there is the quote from Robert, though it could be from any student of Acharn Sujin. I loved it so much that it is written down in quite a few of my pocket notebooks: "I think we become less concerned about what the object is and whether there is kusala or akusala and the focus changes to the anattaness and conditionality of the moment. Then every moment is so utterly perfect and instructive." My how I loved these words. But now I think this sort of thing was WAY premature for me, at least, and to be honest premature for most people I'm sure. To think that there is the kind of panna that is deep enough and penetrative enough to do away with the need for very intentional practices taught by the Buddha for sorting out and stamping out gross forms of akusala is dangerous, I think. Now, it could be for Robert and others that the forms of akusala meant above are subtler. For example, the lobha that is always involved in everything, every moment of seeing, tasting, hearing touching etc. But I don't think anyone hear has reached the kind of development in which much grosser and more dangerous forms of hatred and greed should not be fended off with great diligence, no matter whether there is a failure to see anatta or not. Hating defilements? No, not hating. I'd have to disagree with James there. But tolerating with interest because of insight into the anattaness of it? No,no, no. I will be taking a 6 month-break during the baseball season, so we'll see where I'm at when I come back. Since I'll be studying my AN anthology, I expect I'll be even further away from Acharn Sujin's approach. And that's fine. Her approach gives you folks confidence in Dhamma, and that's really the most important thing. None of us are going to make dramatic breakthroughs, in my opinion, so we should just carry on cheerfully with the approach that gives us the most confidence in Dhamma so that we lead morally tidy lives that are helpful rather than harmful to ourselves and others. I just wish Acharn Sujin and her students would be more open-minded and supportive of other approaches to Dhamma. Insisting that one doesn't know what meditation is and writing off everything to do with more popular forms of contemporary Dhamma as lobha-laden, self-driven delusion really isn't very helpful. Have a great summer everyone. Jon, I was going to get back to you, but the baseball season is here, and I'm gone. I covered a few points that I was going to write about to you. Metta, Phil #70181 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Mar 31, 2007 6:52 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Letters on Vipassana 11, no 2. scottduncan2 Dear James, who is Incommunicado, Thanks for the clarification: J: "I guess an apology was too much to expect. LOL! Okay, then I will offer the apology. I'm sorry that I offended you. I truly didn't know that I was. Let's have no hard feelings. Take care." Scott: There are no hard feelings here, James. I don't need an apology from you for sure - I was the one who took you to task for your style of interaction and, secondarily, its substance in terms of referenced arguments, you certainly didn't come asking for that. And if what I mentioned is shared by anyone else then, and if the apology was necessary and heartfelt, it would go to the group, really, but that's beside the point. I think (tits on a boar) that unsubscribing seems rather an overreaction to being confronted by one guy on a whole list of people, but its what you did. You can come back or stay away as you will as far as I'm concerned. You don't need to be reinvited, that's for sure, since no one told you to leave! I was only suggesting, in my own melodramatic fashion, that you shape up on the harshness thing. A little tweaking there would have been fine for me. If consensus demonstrates that my interaction was out of line, then, for sure, the apology will come - to you and the group. (I won't unsubscribe unless I get kicked out, though. Too much good stuff here.) James, you once wrote, I recall - and maybe someone else does as well - that the style you adopt here is not the way you are 'in the real world'. I can't remember whether you explained the reasons you come across here as you do or not. If the 'real you' is quieter or less acerbic or less in-your-face or whatever, why not just express yourself on the list in this way? (If the 'real you' is louder, more acerbic, and more in-your-face and you have been sparing us, then I do owe you an apology! Don't turn up the volume!) Sincerely, Scott. #70182 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Mar 31, 2007 7:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Letters on Vipassana 11, no 2. nilovg Dear Scott (and incommunicado James), yes, James once explained: his upbringing from childhood and the way his father speaks. He quoted from his father's letters, strong language to say the least. Very often James does not notice that it sounds so sharp what he says. I find with other people that I sometimes wonder: why is he like that. When I hear later on more about their circumstances, I think: O, I wish I had known that. James is kind at heart but sharp in his way of speech. Lodewijk finds that he often has a point. It is hard for others who have not listened much to Khun Sujin to get all the subtle points. Or they find things contradictory. Sometimes in one context one things is stressed and in other contexts another thing. And, as you know, this is also in the suttas. Sometimes calm is stressed or effort to overcome akusala, but we should place it in the right context. Nothing in the teachings is rigid. Nina. Op 31-mrt-2007, om 15:52 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: > James, you once wrote, I recall - and maybe someone else does as well > - that the style you adopt here is not the way you are 'in the real > world'. I can't remember whether you explained the reasons you come > across here as you do or not. #70183 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Mar 31, 2007 7:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Letters on Vipassana 11, no 2. nilovg Hi Phil, At the very moment of studying akusala with awareness, the akusala is dropped for that short moment. The citta is kusala citta and there cannot be akusala citta at the same time. True, every moment can be instructive. We can learn from our defilements, we can learn that they are conditioned. That in itself is kusala. It is bhaavanaa. Nina. Op 31-mrt-2007, om 15:19 heeft Phil het volgende geschreven: > "I think we become less concerned about what the > object is and whether there is kusala or akusala and the focus > changes to the anattaness and conditionality of the moment. Then > every moment is so utterly perfect and instructive." > > My how I loved these words. But now I think this sort of thing was > WAY premature for me, #70184 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Mar 31, 2007 8:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Agreeable and Disagreeable nilovg Hi Larry, yes, as you say, we should be concerned with today's kamma, kamma now. We may speak in general about unpleasant vipaaka, but vipaakacitta is not a situation. We may think of a whole situation, but in reality there are many kinds of cittas arising and falling away, some vipaakacittas, others kiriyacittas, kusala cittas, akusala cittas. As you say:< I think the usefulness of "agreeable and disagreeable" is just in gaining confidence in kamma; showing, somewhat, that kamma really works.> Nina. Op 31-mrt-2007, om 2:25 heeft LBIDD@... het volgende geschreven: However, it doesn't really do you much good to figure out how you are doing now, to figure out whether you are fortunate or unfortunate, because "now" was conditioned long ago and the die is cast. What you want to be concerned with is today's kamma. #70185 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Mar 31, 2007 8:11 am Subject: Rupas Ch 5, no 4. nilovg Dear friends, The rúpa which is the heart-base has not been classified in the “Dhammasangaùi”, but it is referred to in the “Book of Conditional Relations” ( Paììhåna), the Seventh Book of the Abhidhamma. In the section on “Dependance Condition” (Part II, Analytical Exposition of Conditions) it is said that dependant on the five sense-bases the five sense-cognitions arise, and dependant on “this matter” mind- element and mind-consciousness-element arise. “This matter” is the rúpa which is the heart-base and the mind-element and mind- consciousness-element comprise all cittas other than the five sense- cognitions [6]. The “Visuddhimagga” (XIV, 60) gives the following definition of the heart-base [7]: The heart-basis has the characteristic of being the (material) support for the mind-element and for the mind-consciousness-element. Its function is to observe them. It is manifested as the carrying of them.... The “Visuddhimagga” (VIII, 111,112) states that the heart-base is to be found on dependance on the blood, inside the heart. It is of no use to speculate where exactly the heart-base is. It is sufficient to know that there is a rúpa which is base for all cittas other than the sense-cognitions. We may not experience the heart-base, but if there would be no heart-base we could not think at this moment, we could not know which objects we are experiencing, we could not feel happy or unhappy. In the planes of existence where there are nåma and rúpa all cittas must have a physical base, they cannot arise outside the body. When we, for example, are angry, cittas rooted in aversion arise and these originate at the heart-base. --------- footnotes: 6. Mind- element are the five-sense-door adverting-consciousness and the two types of receiving-consciousness, which are kusala vipåka and akusala vipåka. Mind-consciousness-element are all cittas other than the sense-cognitions and mind-element. 7. The Atthasåliní does not classify the heart-base separately, but it mentions the “basis-decad”, a group of ten rúpas including the heart-base ( Book II, Ch III, 316). As I shall explain later on, from the first moment of our life kamma produces three decads, groups of ten rúpas: the bodysense-decad, the sex-decad and the heart-base-decad. ******* Nina. #70186 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Mar 31, 2007 8:16 am Subject: Letters on Vipassana 11, no 8. nilovg Dear friends, We have intellectual understanding of the four noble Truths, but they can be directly realized without having to think about them. We cannot imagine how this is possible so long as paññå has not been developed to that degree. Seeing now arises because of conditions, it is part of the cycle of birth and death. Seeing has to fall away, thus it is dukkha. Såriputta immediately understood that right understanding of the reality arising at the present moment leads to the elimination of ignorance and craving which are the conditions for being in the cycle of birth and death, the conditions for seeing, hearing and the other realities which arise. He understood the reality of the present moment as dhamma, arising because of conditions. He penetrated its characteristic of anattå. For us it is difficult to see dhamma as dhamma because ignorance covers up the truth. We read in the commentary to the “Book of Analysis” (the “Vibhanga”, the second book of the Abhidhamma), in the “Dispeller of Delusion” (Sammohavinodaní, I, Ch VI, Classification of the Structure of Conditions, 140) about ignorance which is opposed to understanding. We read: That is to say, knowledge is understanding. It makes known and plain the four Truths with each meaning and each cause. But this ignorance when it arises does not allow that (understanding) to make that (dhamma) known and plain; thus, because of its opposition to knowledge, it is unknowing. Also seeing is understanding. It sees quality. But ignorance when it arises does not allow it to see, thus it is unseeing.... We then read that whenever ignorance arises it does not allow understanding to penetrate, to grasp and to rightly consider the truth. Thus, each time it arises it blocks and hinders the operation of understanding. This text reminds us of the activity of ignorance which is unnoticed, because when there is ignorance we do not know that there is ignorance. It is very treacherous. ******** Nina. #70187 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Mar 31, 2007 4:51 am Subject: The Nature of Wisdom upasaka_howard Hi, all - I have a conjectured perspective with regard to wisdom that would make it not a single cetasika and would thus be contrary to the Abhidhammmic explanation. My conjecture is as follows: Our typical cognitive functioning, including most especially that of sa~n~na, is impaired and subverted by ignorance. It is not only dimmed but perverted by moha. We "see" less clearly and we see wrongly. At moments of path and fruit, elements of ignorance are uprooted and also ignorance in its entirety is momentarily suspended. On certain more ordinary occasions, ignorance is weakened. At any time that ignorance is fully suspended, all cognitive functioning is unimpaired, and when on other occasions it is merely weakened, cognitive functioning is enhanced to the degree of that weakening. It is proper cognitive function, most especially proper perception/recognition, unimpaired by ignorance, that I submit is what wisdom is. Accordingly, I also conjecture an arahant is never without wisdom, always "seeing" clearly and faithfully exactly what is what, without impairment. With metta, Howard P.S. Were I to learn that wisdom is, in fact, a special faculty and not merely perfect cognitive functioning, I would readily accept that without any displeasure. I don't take the perspective I outlined above as something I desire to be true - it would be fine with me if were entirely false. It simply seems right to me. #70188 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Mar 31, 2007 1:44 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Letters on Vipassana 11, no 2. scottduncan2 Dear Nina, Thanks, I couldn't recall the details... N: "yes, James once explained: his upbringing from childhood and the way his father speaks. He quoted from his father's letters, strong language to say the least. Very often James does not notice that it sounds so sharp what he says. I find with other people that I sometimes wonder: why is he like that. When I hear later on more about their circumstances, I think: O, I wish I had known that. James is kind at heart but sharp in his way of speech. Lodewijk finds that he often has a point." Yeah, for sure. There are times when I read James to be quite accurate about certain things. Too much father; not enough father; good wife; dead wife - the array of the human condition. We all 'come by it honestly' I guess. Even insight at the mundane level has degrees, I think. Knowing the theoretical dynamics of one's behaviour doesn't always allow for change, while 'deeper' knowing can. The worldly notion, which seems to be true, that the way one is 'rooted' in a past which persists unconsciously and structures behaviour and perception in the present is hard to reconcile with the Dhamma, which ultimately doesn't deal in persons. One moment conditions the next and this can serve as explanation... N: "It is hard for others who have not listened much to Khun Sujin to get all the subtle points. Or they find things contradictory. Sometimes in one context one things is stressed and in other contexts another thing. And, as you know, this is also in the suttas. Sometimes calm is stressed or effort to overcome akusala, but we should place it in the right context. Nothing in the teachings is rigid." Very good points, Nina. Thank you. I was just reminded, though, of something I thought awhile ago. It was around the time that word of your need to rest came up. At that time I certainly thought of a future when you would not be posting any longer. I think that others must have had similar thoughts. Then its clinging to Nina and trying to find ways to accommodate to such an eventuality. I think there can be many ways in which the clinging to Nina can be expressed, including ways that seem to be the opposite, such as arguing or debating. Its alright. We can learn from you while you are still here. I very much appreciate the way in which you present Dhamma. Its not you. Its not Kh. Sujin. Its Dhamma. Sincerely, Scott. #70189 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Mar 31, 2007 4:07 pm Subject: Vism.XVII,143 Vism.XVII,144 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga), Ch. XVII 143. But in the case of another who is in a happy destiny and has obtained exalted [consciousness] through earth-kasina jhana, etc., at the time of his death there comes into focus at the mind door the sense-sphere profitable kamma or the sign of the kamma or the sign of the destiny, or else the sign of the earth kasina, etc., or also the exalted consciousness, or else there comes into focus a superior object of the eye or ear that is a cause for profitable rebirth. When the consciousnesses ending in determining have arisen in due succession, there arise in him impulsions numbering five because of slowing down due to the nearness of death. But in those who belong to an exalted destiny there is no registration. So the one death consciousness arises next to the impulsion and making the life-continuum's objective field its object. At the end of that, rebirth-linking consciousness arises located in one of the happy destinies of the sense sphere or exalted sphere, and having as its object whichever one among the aforesaid objects has appeared. This is the kind of rebirth-linking with a 'past', 'present', or 'not-so-classifiable' object next to death consciousness in a happy destiny with a 'not-so-classifiable' object. 144. Rebirth-linking next to immaterial-sphere death should be understood in this way too. This is how rebirth-linking occurs with a 'past', 'present', or 'not-so-classifiable' object next to death consciousness in a happy destiny with a 'past' or 'not-so-classifiable' object. ************************* 143. aparassa pana pathaviikasi.najjhaanaadivasena pa.tiladdhamahaggatassa sugatiya.m .thitassa mara.nasamaye kaamaavacarakusalakammakammanimitta gatinimittaana.m vaa a~n~natara.m, pathaviikasi.naadika.m vaa nimitta.m, mahaggatacitta.m vaa manodvaare aapaathamaagacchati, cakkhusotaana.m vaa a~n~natarasmi.m kusaluppattihetubhuuta.m pa.niitamaaramma.na.m aapaathamaagacchati, tassa yathaakkamena uppannavo.t.thabbanaavasaane mara.nassa aasannabhaavena mandiibhuutavegattaa pa~nca javanaani uppajjanti. mahaggatagatikaana.m pana tadaaramma.na.m natthi, tasmaa javanaanantara.myeva bhava"ngavisaya.m aaramma.na.m katvaa eka.m cuticitta.m uppajjati. tassaavasaane kaamaavacaramahaggatasugatiina.m a~n~natarasugatipariyaapanna.m yathuupa.t.thitesu aaramma.nesu a~n~nataraaramma.na.m pa.tisandhicitta.m uppajjati. aya.m navattabbaaramma.naaya sugaticutiyaa anantaraa atiitapaccuppannanavattabbaaramma.naana.m a~n~nataraaramma.naa pa.tisandhi. 144. etenaanusaarena aaruppacutiyaapi anantaraa pa.tisandhi veditabbaa. aya.m atiitanavattabbaaramma.naaya sugaticutiyaa anantaraa atiitanavattabbapaccuppannaaramma.naaya pa.tisandhiyaa pavattanaakaaro. #70190 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Mar 31, 2007 6:51 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Agreeable and Disagreeable scottduncan2 Dear Larry, Thanks, this seems clear. I realise that I was slow to get that you were at another level of discourse. L: "We might ask, what difference does it make to know whether a vipaka citta is kusala or akusala?...I think the usefulness of "agreeable and disagreeable" is just in gaining confidence in kamma; showing, somewhat, that kamma really works. The idea is that an evil deed will produce an unfortunate destiny. Akusala vipaka citta is the unfortunate destiny. It is disagreeable. So the question is how do we define the fortunate and the unfortunate." Scott: That makes sense when vipaaka is considered to be just the playing out of something conditioned by some past action. Is pa~n~na able to determine kusala from akusala? I'd say yes. I'm thinking of the sahetuka-vipaaka-cittas accompanied by wisdom, although I don't understand this too well. L: "Kamma doesn't have this question. An akusala kamma patha will eventually produce an unfortunate destiny. My understanding of the CMA passage in question is that "the unfortunate" is largely determined by society. That is not to say that society creates akusala vipaka citta, but rather kamma conditions the arising of an akusala vipaka citta in that particular society. If you are born with a big nose in a society of small nosed people, that is considered to be unfortunate. The same the other way around, small nose in a society of big nosed people. Of course you can always get your nose changed; you can move to a different society; or society's values could change. This doesn't mean you are changing your destiny, but rather your destiny is changing you." Scott: The societal norms determine how one categorises experience, I think you are saying. Qualifying that it is akusala or kusala kamma that conditions the vipaaka-citta seems correct. It makes me wonder, though, not that its all that important, whether this means that kusala and akusala kamma or action is categorised as fluidly? Is it too dependent on societal norms? Logically I think that this could mean that it might be considered 'kusala' in a particular society in a given time period, for an example, to kill one's female children when they are born. I don't think that the sanction of that particular society could negate the Dhamma which labels killing akusala. Or, given that this was considered kusala from a societal point of view, would the result also be kusala-vipaaka? The above doesn't make sense to me. Nor do I understand how to explain that some people take pleasure and feel pleasure when performing what is defined as akusala. Such a one might feel very fortunate to be in a position to be enjoying so much pleasure. And it may even be kusala-vipaaka-citta, for all I know. What do you think? L: "However, it doesn't really do you much good to figure out how you are doing now, to figure out whether you are fortunate or unfortunate, because "now" was conditioned long ago and the die is cast. What you want to be concerned with is today's kamma." Scott: Very good point. L: "Or you could try to figure it out yourself: what is 'the fortunate'?" Scott: I'll have to keep pondering this one, if you don't mind, Larry. Thanks. Sincerely, Scott. #70191 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Mar 31, 2007 9:38 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Agreeable and Disagreeable lbidd2 Hi Scott, S: "Thanks, this seems clear." L: Uuh, wait, I made a mistake. There are characteristics to some vipaka cittas that panna could use to tell whether it is kusala or akusala vipaka. Using the chart on p. 43 in CMA I see that the feeling that accompanies rootless cittas indicates whether a few vipaka cittas are kusala or akusala. Body consciousness accompanied by painful feeling is always akusala vipaka citta. Body consciousness accompanied by pleasurable feeling is always kusala vipaka citta. Also an investigating consciousness accompanied by joy is kusala vipaka citta. And as you mentioned resultant consciousnesses with roots can be recognized as kusala because the roots are kusala. Also rootless death, bhavanga, and rebirth linking can be distinguished by their objects as to kusala or akusala, and resultant fine material, immaterial, and supramundane consciousnesses can be recognized as such. But there doesn't seem to be any characteristics that would indicate whether eye, ear, nose, tongue, receiving, or investigating accompanied by equanimity consciousness is kusala or akusala. S: "The societal norms determine how one categorises experience, I think you are saying. Qualifying that it is akusala or kusala kamma that conditions the vipaaka-citta seems correct. It makes me wonder, though, not that its all that important, whether this means that kusala and akusala kamma or action is categorised as fluidly? Is it too dependent on societal norms?" L: No, kusala or akusala kamma have kusala or akusala characteristics: lobha, dosa, moha, alobha, adosa, amoha. S: "Logically I think that this could mean that it might be considered 'kusala' in a particular society in a given time period, for an example, to kill one's female children when they are born. I don't think that the sanction of that particular society could negate the Dhamma which labels killing akusala. Or, given that this was considered kusala from a societal point of view, would the result also be kusala-vipaaka?" L: Interesting question. I don't think society's view matters with regard to kamma but could someone kill with alobha and adosa? Some might say an arahant could under extraordinary circumstances but it wouldn't be kamma, so there wouldn't be kamma vipaka. It's difficult to say. What about euthanasia? S: "The above doesn't make sense to me. Nor do I understand how to explain that some people take pleasure and feel pleasure when performing what is defined as akusala. Such a one might feel very fortunate to be in a position to be enjoying so much pleasure. And it may even be kusala-vipaaka-citta, for all I know. What do you think?" L: I agree. Lobha is accompanied by pleasant feeling whenever we cling to something good. It's a little difficult to find fault with that. You really have to know the danger of lobha, how it is dukkha. I should say something else here. I'm not entirely convinced by my argument that kamma vipaka is intimately linked to variable social values. In some ways it makes sense, but I'm not sure why. Maybe there is a better way to look at it. Larry #70192 From: "matheesha" Date: Sat Mar 31, 2007 11:42 pm Subject: Right view matheesha333 Right view "Friend, how many conditions are there for the arising of right view?" "Friend, there are two conditions for the arising of right view: the voice of another and appropriate attention. These are the two conditions for the arising of right view." "And assisted by how many factors does right view have awareness- release as its fruit & reward, and discernment-release as its fruit & reward?" "Assisted by five factors, right view has awareness-release as its fruit & reward, and discernment-release as its fruit & reward. There is the case where right view is assisted by virtue, assisted by learning, assisted by discussion, assisted by tranquility, assisted by insight. Assisted by these five factors, right view has awareness-release as its fruit & reward, and discernment-release as its fruit & reward." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.043.than.html #70193 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Sun Apr 1, 2007 12:53 am Subject: Re: The Nature of Wisdom ken_aitch --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, all - > > I have a conjectured perspective with regard to wisdom that would make > it not a single cetasika and would thus be contrary to the Abhidhammmic > explanation. > I don't take the perspective I outlined above as something I desire to > be true - it would be fine with me if were entirely false. It simply seems > right to me. > Hi Howard, What, in your opinion, is the value of such conjecture? To me, the straight Abhidhamma explanations seem right but, again, so what if they do? What is the value of my conjecture? According to the texts, wise consideration of the Buddha's teaching leads to enlightenment. There is no mention of wisely considering one's own teachings (or theories). Therefore, I don't think either of us should be influenced by thoughts of "This seems right (or wrong) to me." Ken H #70194 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Apr 1, 2007 1:19 am Subject: the nature of wisdom nilovg Hi Howard, thanks for your post. You write: I think you see ignorance as impairing cognition and sa~n~naa, and wisdom as the opposite. But the dilemma is: cognition and remembrance of what? Of concepts or of citta, cetasika and ruupa? It is true as you suggest that we are subject to distortion of the truth. We are not able to see through the problems of life, the circumstances, being troubled by other people's actions and speech, by jealousy and conceit. We all have conceit, thinking ourselves better, worse or equal in comparison with others, always comparing. I believe that it is pa~n~naa that can see through the circumstances, the troubles in life. It knows the real causes and conditions for the events of life. The real cause of all problems is within: our own citta, our defilements. Should'nt we know this first of all? Pa~n~naa can eradicate defilements. Pa~n~naa can be very, very gradually developed by understanding the reality appearing at this moment. We do not know pa~n~naa until it arises. When it arises it can eliminate some of our ignorance and wrong view of the realities that appear. Pa~n~naa can understand the four noble truths, but always in relation to our life right now, to the present moment. If we have more understanding of paramattha dhammas, we shall also see other people's behaviour in the right way. Understanding of paramattha dhammas helps to have more understanding of other people. It helps to have more mettaa and karuna, even though we often fail. Kh Sujin said that we can become an understanding person where it concerns other people. I would like to quote from Kh. Sujin's Perfections. We read here about the worldly conditions, praise and blame, etc. which occur all the time in our life: < The Commentary to the “Basket of Conduct” defines the perfection of wisdom as follows: “Wisdom (paññå) has the characteristic of penetrating the real specific nature (of dhammas), or the characteristic of sure penetration, like the penetration of an arrow shot by a skilful archer; its function is to illuminate the objective field, like a lamp; its manifestation is non-confusion, like a guide in a forest; concentration or the four (noble) truths, is its proximate cause.” Through the study of the Dhamma we gradually come to have more understanding of the vicissitudes of the world, of gain and loss, honour and dishonour, praise and blame, wellbeing and pain. We shall understand that the pleasant “worldly conditions” of gain, honour, praise and wellbeing only lead to dukkha, suffering, if there is no paññå that knows the causes and their appropriate results in life. If someone truly sees the value of paññå and intends to develop kusala, he will not wish for pleasant sense objects as result, but he will aim for the growth of paññå until it has become keen and accomplished to the degree that it can completely eradicate defilements. Satipaììhåna, right understanding of the mental phenomena and physical phenomena of our life, cannot be developed without paññå. No matter how many other excellent qualities someone may have, his defilements cannot be eradicated if paññå does not develop and becomes keener, if paññå does not clearly see the true nature of the realities that are naturally appearing. Thus, we should see the incomparable value of paññå and we should apply ourselves to its development so that it can become fully accomplished. If we develop satipaììhåna time and again, paññå will be gradually accumulated so that it becomes keener, and reaches the degree of a perfection which realizes the four noble Truths.> ***** Nina. #70195 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Apr 1, 2007 1:25 am Subject: Supreme Understanding! bhikkhu5 Friends: How is the Understanding Ability the Supreme? The Blessed Buddha once said! Bhikkhus, just as, among the trees of Jambudipa the rose-apple tree is declared to be the chief, similarly among all the states leading to enlightenment the understanding ability is declared to be the chief, that is, for the attainment of the supreme enlightenment! And what, Bhikkhus, are the states leading to enlightenment? The ability of Faith , Bhikkhus, is a state leading to enlightenment; The ability of Energy , Bhikkhus, is a state leading to enlightenment; The ability of Awareness , is a state leading towards enlightenment; The ability of Concentration , is a state leading to enlightenment; The ability of Understanding is a state leading to enlightenment; Why? They are conducive for, leads to and produce enlightenment... Friends just as, the rose-apple tree among the trees of Jambudipa is declared to be their chief, so too, among all the states leading to enlightenment, the ability of understanding is declared to be their chief, that is, for the attainment of enlightenment... Source (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book [V:237] section 48: The Abilities. 67: The Tree ... More on this supreme Comprehension: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/Understanding_is_the_Chief.htm Understanding is the Fourth Mental Perfection! Understanding is the Chief! Understanding Saves! Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Ceylon * <....> #70196 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Apr 1, 2007 3:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Leading to stream entry sarahprocter... Dear Han (Ken H & all), --- han tun wrote: > Han: I cannot refute Lily de Silva’s statement that > “it is nowhere stated that he practiced mental culture > or meditation (bhavana)” because I also cannot find > it. I can only draw conclusions by inference. Please > examine the following passages I have taken from > http://mettanet.org/pali-utils/Pali-Proper-Names/anaathapindika.htm > > > (1) < The Buddha was staying in the Sítavana, and when > Anaathapindika reached there spirits opened the door > for him. He found the Buddha walking up and down, > meditating in the cool air of the early dawn. The > Buddha greeted him and talked to him on various > aspects of his teaching. Anaathapindika was > immediately converted and became a Sotaapanna.> > > Han: So it is possible that he became a Sotaapanna > without practicing bhavana. > ------------------------------ .... S: Perhaps this comes down to our understanding of bhavana again. The highest bhavana is the development of insight -- vipassana bhavana. Without the development of vipassana bhavana through the path of satipatthana, it's impossible to become a sotapanna. We read many accounts of disciples who became ariyan disciples 'on the spot' when they listened to the Buddha. Some of the Theriis we're reading about in Connie's 'Sisters Corner', became arahants, passing through various stages of insight and attainment of the paths, 'one after the other'. The practice/devlopment of bhavana depends on the understanding and insight at the time, not on a particular time-frame, particular activity or anything else, as I understand it. Ken H, you mentioned that 'he had heard many Dhamma-talks and practiced insight-development - maybe not in this lifetime.....'. When it comes to the attainment of insights (vipassana), I believe they occurred in the present lifetime after hearing the teachings. Of cours, like the Theriis, all the 'ingredients' would have been in place and the supporting conditions developed in former Buddha-sasanas as you say. As for the 'talk specifically designed for the needs of a Stream-enterer', I'm not sure. The sotapanna is destined to become fully enlightened regardless of any talk. However, of course ariyan disciples appreciate hearing the dhamma more than worldlings and these were the right words at the right time for further insight. Interesting. I'll look forward to reading any further comments you have on this. Han, thanks also for your helpful post #70151 on daana and caaga. If you come across further detail on the distinction between them, I'll be interested to read it. Metta, Sarah ======== #70197 From: han tun Date: Sun Apr 1, 2007 3:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Leading to stream entry hantun1 Dear Sarah, Please forgive me, but after reading your post, I am not sure about your stance. Do you still maintain your stance that you did not agree with the comment made by Lily de Silva about Anathapindika - to the effect that there was no bhavana as he was only a sotapanna? Respectfully, Han #70198 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Apr 1, 2007 4:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Leading to stream entry sarahprocter... Dear Han, --- han tun wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > Please forgive me, but after reading your post, I am > not sure about your stance. Do you still maintain your > stance that you did not agree with the comment made by > Lily de Silva about Anathapindika - to the effect that > there was no bhavana as he was only a sotapanna? .... S: Yes. Without bhavana, he would never have become a sotapanna in the first place. Have I misunderstood your comments and Lily de Silva's? Metta, Sarah ========= #70199 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Apr 1, 2007 4:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Theriigaathaa - Sisters (47) sarahprocter... Dear Connie, Han, Scott, Rob K & all, Talking about bhavana... --- connie wrote: > Dear Friends, > part 4 of 11: Pa.taacaaraa (#69983, #70010) .... > At that moment, she did not notice the clothing she was wearing was > falling down. She went out of her mind from grief, and she roamed around > > naked, babbling: > Both my sons are dead. My husband is dead on the road. My mother and > father and brother are being burnt on a single funeral pyre. > > RD: Thereat grief maddened her, so that she was not aware even of her > > clothing slipping off. Wailing in her woe - > 'My children both are gone, and in the bush > Dead lies my husband; on one funeral bier > My mother, father, and my brother burn,' .... S: The assembly said not to allow the crazy woman to approach, but the Buddha encouraged her to come forward and 'regain her mind'. He told her not to think about her losses....'The water in the four oceans is smaller than the greater amount of water of the tears of a man affected by misery and grieving.' He then went on to explain to ther how one's family are no shelter - only the eightfold path to true purification is. Pa.taacaaraa became a sotapanna by the end of the discourse. A lot of bhavana (for her) during that talk and appreciation of the only true shelter in life, no matter how much of a crazy woman she may have appeared. A good reminder of anytime, any place, any realities...As Scott said with regard to kusala and akusala vipaka, we never know what vipaka and what other conditions will lead to a hearing and appreciation of the dhammas. It all comes back to accumulations of understanding, as also discussed in the threads about the bhikkhus up the mountain and the ladder or Jambuka. Just dhammas, no matter what the story is! Metta, Sarah ========