#72800 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue May 29, 2007 11:50 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Insight is "Vision," Not Merely Experience. kenhowardau Hi Colette, Thanks for your reply. You wrote: >I truely don't feel that there's much of a hope in your grasping > the totality of which Buddhism addresses. And you went on to discuss Confucianism and Taoism and several other teachings. You have a very broad knowledge of these matters. However, I am not sure such a broad knowledge is necessary. The 'totality' that Buddhism addresses is actually the namas and rupas of the present moment. They are sometimes called the loka (the all, the ultimate universe). I am not saying it is easy to know namas and rupas. But I don't think a knowledge of other teachings is necessary. ------- <…> > colette: so be it, but I got the a very wrong impression from your wordings as if you were setting up bowling pins to stand in a certain order so that your amuzement could be gratified by knocking the pins down. I do not see how abandoning the past can bring about any understanding of the Buddha's message. -------- Yes, I think you did get a wrong impression of what I wrote, but never mind, it wasn't important. :-) I am not suggesting anyone abandon the past. But clinging to the past needs to be understood as a fetter, doesn't it? Ken H #72801 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed May 30, 2007 12:02 am Subject: Re: Recollection of the Buddha- 2 buddhatrue Hi Nidhi, Glad that you are enjoying the series. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "wisdomcompassion" wrote: > > Hi again, may i know the source of the text. it sounds interesting, > i haven't come across any such thing in suttas yet. It is the Visuddhimagga "The Path of Purification" compiled by Buddhaghosa 1,580 years ago from ancient texts. Metta, James #72802 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Wed May 30, 2007 12:02 am Subject: Re: Curiousity Corner 1 rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > > We are sometimes admonished by otherwise well-meaning folks at dsg to > refrain from using one's critical faculties in relation to the > received wisdom of the Theravadan tradition. > > IMO, this is a very anti-Buddhist requirment to foist on to others. > > The purpose of this curiousity corner is to demonstrate the need for > critical reading and evaluation of any of the texts, including the > Suttas, and any practices that such texts may prescribe. > > ==== Dear Herman Nice thread. Some Buddhist these days say "I follow the suttas , or I follow the 4 Nikaya, not the Abhidhamma or not the Commentaries" They say the suttas are right, yet here we have an exmaple for the suttas where most of us don't understand it. I remember one person telling me he didn't believe in the Commentaries because it has talks about the heart base, and he said this is not in the sutta (implying the Commenatry got it wrong). Yet so far few members seem to be saying "I don't follow the suttas". For me there are a few areas that I can't understand in the suttas and Commentaries, but if we use that to try to justify our doubts we are going in the wrong direction. There are so few years before we die, and most beings are born in the lower realms, only a small number in deva or human. The comfort of feeling "we are critcal thinkers" doesn't help at all when reborn in avicci. Robert #72803 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed May 30, 2007 12:14 am Subject: Re: New Series: Recollection of the Buddha buddhatrue Hi Robert, > Dear James, > Today I had to wait at the bakery. I started getting irriated and > thought "why don't they open another till". Then I remembered how the > Bodisatta, in one life, was a baby. He was ordered executed by his > father, and in the time between the executioner throwing him in the air > and being impaled on the spear he thought "now is not the time to have > thoughts of illwill to my father or the executioner, nor to have > thoughts of attachment to my mother (who was crying)" and so he went to > a higher world. James: Interesting story. A baby was able to know that his father had ordered him executed and that his mother was crying from the impending death? He must have had psychic abilities. > > Thinking about how even a baby can be detached in severe circumstances > lifted the aversion I was feeling. James: That's great. > I know you think such reflections are mere thinking and shouldn't be > considered real Dhamma. James: You shouldn't make that assumption about what I would think about that occurance. Actually, I think that any thought which helps to purify the mind of defilement is a skillful means. You were practicing Right Effort as taught by the Buddha, so of course I consider it real Dhamma. But sometimes simple reflections like this are > helpful, James: Of course they are. I find that reflecting on the teachings of the Dhammapada to be extremely helpful (as I am more inclined to appreciate short, poetic verses). You seem to appreciate stories of arahants and bodhisattvas more. Whatever works for the individual to purify the mind of defilements is a skillful means. not everyone is aiming for jhana. James: Yes, that is true. Not everyone is aiming for jhana and I don't expect everyone to be aiming for jhana. The path is a gradual path and people are at different stages. However, just consider, if you had perfected jhana it is unlikely that you would have even gotten impatient at that bakery. Your mind would already be highly purified so you would have automatically been patient, regardless of the circumstances. > Robert > Metta, James #72804 From: "Phil" Date: Wed May 30, 2007 12:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Curiousity Corner 1 philofillet Hi Herman Hope the root canal wasn't too rough. > This is where you have both misread me. I tried to make it clear that > I was posting in order to show how stupid, if not plain silly, it > would be to dispense with one's critical faculties, and just accept > the wholesale literal truth of everything Theravadan. I didn't read your initial post, so didn't really know what you were up to. Sorry to have misread you. As James said, it's a very valuable thread you started. Made me think that there are some suttas that guide me in daily life even though I don't believe that they are true! For example, the one that if a husband and wife live in harmony, in tune, they can be together in the next life. (In AN) This goes again basic Dhamma, I think, but going along with it guides me toward having a more harmonious relationship with Naomi. So the sutta is a condition for harmony, even though my belief in it is...not really there. I don't believe it - not really -but playing along with it is beneficial. I think the same can be said of the basic teaching of rebirth in general. I think I don't yet have a deep firm belief in it, but maintaining a kind of...formal belief? Practice belief? Hypothetical belief? in it helps. I don't know the right word. One thing is clear - until we believe in rebirth we have a basic form of Buddhist wrong view. You know that already. (I still appreciate your allowing me to refer to you as a person with Wrong View when people warn too much about subtler forms of wrong view. ) There is a sutta that has been discussed here in the past that gets at the value of believing things for the sake of believing them even before we have the knowledge that really allows us to believe them. Something like that. (Nina, or anyone, do you recall this sutta that I'm getting at? Maybe I discussed it with Sarah...I think there is something about it in the UPs.) Anyways, good gist for reflection, Herman. Thanks. Metta, Phil #72805 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed May 30, 2007 12:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: New Series: Recollection of the Buddha, suggestions. nilovg Dear James and Robert, James, first of all I appreciate your series, it is a very good idea to have study corners. But this morning I reflected a little and I have some suggestions. We take the Vis. text, but if we read carefully, we can see that it is for application in daily life. It would be very interesting if others like Han or Howard would join in and help us, telling about their personal application in life. As to mindfulness of death, Han wrote many good things and could add more. Years ago Christine wrote a very moving post about a whole family, servants included, who were mindful of death every day. How often do we die, do we not die each split second? Now the Recollection of the Buddha: I am sure Han can add good things about his personal life, and so can others. What does 'Buddha' mean? Do we understand the meaning? Also relevant suttas could be brought in. Different people may have different ideas about reflection, contemplation, meditation, but it does not matter. I am sure everybody can bring in something useful. Just a few suggestions. Nina. Op 30-mei-2007, om 8:24 heeft rjkjp1 het volgende geschreven: > I know you think such reflections are mere thinking and shouldn't be > considered real Dhamma. But sometimes simple reflections like this are > helpful, not everyone is aiming for jhana. #72806 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed May 30, 2007 1:16 am Subject: Discussions in Paris, 1. nilovg Dear friends, Discussions in Paris. I. Just before we left for our holidays in France, our neighbour had died. We had seen him when he was in bed and already in the process of dying, and then after that, shortly before we left, we looked at his dead body. We were impressed by this reminder of the shortness of life. Not long after this event we heard of the death of a colleague who was only four years older than Lodewijk and this again made us think that death will come soon. This motivated us to discuss Dhamma often, and in particular to discuss Satipatthana. I read to Lodewijk all the dialogues with Howard on this subject, explaining first sati of the level of daana and siila: sati which is non-forgetfulness of kusala. When there is an opportunity for kusala, we are often forgetful and let it pass. For instance when we are in the company of others who tell tales about someone else, we are likely to join in. But, when sati arises, it is a condition to abstain from useless speech. I read to Lodewijk: ------------- Lodewijk found what Howard said helpful:< It seems to me that vigilance in maintaining attentiveness is support for vigilance in distinguishing wholesome from unwholesome.> I said to Lodewijk: Sati is non-forgetful of what is kusala, thus, when one is tempted to engage in akusala, such as bad speech, sati is watchful and is the condition for abstaining from such speech. I read to him: the text of the Visuddhimagga : 'or its proximate cause is the foundations of mindfulness concerned with the body, and so on (see M. Sutta 10).' ------- The four Applications of Mindfulness include all naamas and ruupasthat can be the objects of mindfulness. When they have become the objects or bases for sati they are the proximate cause of mindfulness. Lodewijk found this part of the definition difficult to understand. I commented: A proximate cause is an indispensable cause. Without it sati cannot arise. We should not cling to the names of the four foundations. Sati sampajañña should know what the object of mindfulness is, a nama or rupa that appears at this moment. When a table is perceived, it should be known that visible object that appears through the eyes can be the object of satisampajañña, or when a table is touched, that hardness that appears through the bodysense can be the object of satisampajañña. Rúpa that is included in the Application of Mindfulness of the Body is then the proximate cause of sati of the level of satipatthana. When sati is aware of a reality paññå can know it as it is. The four Applications of Mindfulness remind us that naama and ruupa occurring in daily life are the objects of mindfulness. We are reminded to be aware of naama and ruupa no matter whether we are walking, standing, sitting or lying down. We have learnt that all realities are anattaa, non-self, but this knowledge has to be applied to the dhammas that appear. It has to be applied to sati of satipa.t.thaana, in other words, sati of the level of vipassanaa. This level of sati arises together with right understanding. ******* Nina. #72807 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed May 30, 2007 1:21 am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 157 and Tiika. nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 157. Intro: We read in the Diigha Nikaaya (Sangiiti sutta, the Recital, the fours, no. 38) about four ways of generation: The Co. states that birth from moisture can be birth from rotting fish. We read in the Co. to the 'Abhidhammattha Sangaha (T.A. p. 246: . As the Vis. explains (section 154), all four kinds of generation are possible among animals, ghosts (except those who are consumed by thirst), human beings and earth devas. In the following section the Visuddhimagga deals with the amount of ruupas arising at the moment of the pa.tisandhicitta of those who have spontaneous birth or who are moisture born. They are at the most seventy and at least thirty, depending on the kamma that produces rebirth. ------------- Text Vis.157: At the least, thirty material instances arise with the decads of the tongue, body, and physical basis, in those who are blind from birth, deaf, noseless, and sexless. --------- N: Some beings have only tastingsense, bodysense and heartbase, they lack the other senses and the ruupa that is sex. --------- Text Vis.: Between the most and the least, the allotment should be understood according as appropriate. ------------------------- N: As we read in section 155: < the apparitional and moisture-born have seventy material instances at most, and they have thirty at the least.> As we have read in section 151 and 152: for the eggborn kamma produces only two decads and for those born by way of the womb there may be two decads or three decads. When there are three decads, they are the decad of the bodysense, the heartbase and sex, and when there are two decads, sex is lacking. 'The most' implies seven decads: then all the senses are complete. In that case there are the five senses, heartbase and sex. In between the highest amount of ruupas and the least amount of ruupas, seventy ruupas and thirty ruupas, there are several possibilities. Some beings may be blind but not deaf, or both blind and deaf. The Tiika renders the opinions of different teachers. (See also T.A., p. 248, footnote 2). The Tiika states that the blind lack the eyedecad, the deaf lack the eardecad and those born blind and deaf lack both the eyedecad and eardecad. -------- Note 26 of the translator: Pm. (p. 611) has a long discussion here of the difficulty of speaking of the Brahmaa-world (where there are only the senses of seeing and hearing) in terms of the decads, which contain the components of odour and flavour (par. 156). It ends by defending the Visuddhimagga standpoint. -------- N: The eyedecad and eardecad are groups, kalapas, including, as we have seen, the four great Elements and four which are colour, odour, flavour and nutritive essence, thus, the eight inseparable ruupas that always arise together in a group. This does not contradict the fact that ruupabrahmas do not have smellingsense and tastingsense and cannot experience odour and flavour. The rupas of odour and flavour that are among the eight inseparable ruupas and thus present in the eyedecad and eardecad do not perform the function of being object (visayo), as the Tiika explains. They are merely part of the kalapa, group of ruupas. They support the accompanying ruupas of the group. The Tiika refers to the Book of Analysis (Analysis of the Heart of the Teaching, 1009, p. 528) which enumerates the ruupas arising at the moment of rebirth in the sensuous planes, classifying them by way of the aayatanas. There are twelve aayatanas and these are: the five sense-organs, manaayatana, including all cittas, the six sense objects, and dhammaayatana, including cetasikas, subtle ruupas and nibbaana. At birth there are eleven aayatanas at most, since sound is excluded. For some there may be ten, nine, or seven aayatanas. ----------- Conclusion: When we take into account the different ways of generation in the different planes of existence with the different amount of ruupas arising at the moment of rebirth, the variety of birth is greater than one could imagine. Because of ignorance one is still in the cycle of birth and death and performs kusala kamma and akusala kamma that bring different results in the form of rebirth and of vipaakacittas arising in the course of life. Vipaakacitta is the mental result of kamma, and kamma also produces different kinds of ruupas. Kamma produces ruupas together with the rebirth-consciousness. It is kamma that conditions a being to be born with a minimum amount of ruupas, or with a maximum amount. This reminds us that the body does not belong to us. How could one be master of one's body? The sense organs are not ours, it is due to kamma which sense organs arise at birth. One may be blind or deaf from birth on and this is due to kamma. It is very difficult to fathom kamma and its result, and this is clearly explained with all the examples in the Visuddhimagga. They are very detailed, but they help to have more understanding of cause and effect. They help us to see that life evolves according to conditions which are beyond control. ******* Nina. #72808 From: "Andrew" Date: Wed May 30, 2007 1:30 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Curiousity Corner 1 corvus121 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > I am not trying to debunk Buddhism, I am trying to demonstrate the > sillyness of a non-critical acceptance of everything one is told. Hi Herman Yes, I see what you are saying. To my reading, however, many of your posts (including this proposed thread) come across as an attack on the acceptance of saddha as a wholesome factor. To you, it seems, saddha = a non-critical acceptance of everything one is told in the Tipitaka. On the other hand, the suttas contain many, many instances where the Buddha praised saddha as a treasure and such like. I prefer the suttas. I don't believe that saddha requires a zombie- like acceptance as absolute truth of "Ripley's Believe it or Not" type facts. Saddha is a clearing of murkiness from the water so that one can focus on the things that matter at the right time. Sorry, but the cloud devas and the anger-eating yakkha don't really matter to me when reflecting upon the true Dhamma. Maybe later. If we're talking about the local school's science curriculum, then these things really do matter to me. The scientific method must be rigorously applied (even if it upsets religious sensibilities). I don't have a problem with you raising these curiosities for comment. But I suspect that the underlying signals pertaining to the Dhamma don't survive the light of examination and can be quite damaging. Dhamma and science are not synonyms. Why mix them? There's some weird stuff in the Tipitaka. Note it but don't gnaw on it lest you miss the really good stuff too. Gnawing on it includes both sides - spitting the dummy or piously pretending it all makes sense to you when it doesn't. That's my two bob's worth. Over and out for me. Best wishes Andrew #72809 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed May 30, 2007 1:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana as necessity to enlightenment... nilovg Hi James, thanks for your concern. I have to laugh also, because you put me to work! I finished reading again the long article by Ven. Bodhi. He is very honest in his study, I think. Did you read it? It would be interesting to see your comments. Did you keep it, otherwise I give it again. A subject to discuss in an unemotive way :-)). No, why so many emotions. We have to scrutinize our cittas, me included: is there attachment conditioning such emotions while writing posts? Moreover, I find it helpful to see also those who have different opinions as my friends. But I know that you feel likewise. Establishing friendship is really helpful. B.B. made a deepgoing study of the suttas, and seemed pretty sure that there were laypeople who attained the first two stages of enlightenment without having cultivated jhanas. His approach is very honest. He concludes: < Although in the Nikaayas the tie between the two attainments -the jhaanas and non-returnership - is clear enough, it remains an open question whether the connection is absolutely binding. Several suttas speak of the achievements of non-returners without mentioning the jhaanas, and at least one sutta contrasts the non-returner who gains all four jhaanas with one who practises more austere types of meditation that do not typically lead to the jhaanas. The Commentaries speak even of a sukkhavipassaka arahant, an arahant who has gained the goal entirely through "dry insight," without any attainment of form-sphere jhaana at all. Although such a type is not explicitly recognized in the Nikaayas, the question may be raised whether the Commentaries, in asserting the possibility of arahantship without attainment of jhaana in the mundane portion of the path, have deviated from the Canon or brought to light a viable possibility implict in the older texts. The famous Satipa.t.thaana Sutta declares, in its conclusion, that all those who earnestly dedicate themselves to uninterrupted practice of the four establishments of mindfulness are bound to reap one of two fruits: either arahantship in this very life or, if any residue of clinging remains, the stage of non-returning. While several exercises within the Satipa.t.thaana Sutta are certainly capable of inducing the jhaanas, the system as a whole seems oriented towards direct insight rather than towards the jhaanas.[40] Thus this opens the question whether the Satipa.t.thaana Sutta might not be propounding a way of practice that leads all the way to non-returning, even to arahantship, without requiring attainment of the jhaanas. This, however, is another question, one that lies beyond the scope of this paper.> After this quote I will not answer all your questions (I should post less), but this article is an interesting one inviting to further study. Nina. Op 30-mei-2007, om 7:09 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > Glad that you are taking it easy from posting. #72810 From: "wisdomcompassion" Date: Wed May 30, 2007 1:51 am Subject: Re: Recollection of the Buddha- 2 wisdomcompas... Hi James, thanks for the information, i haven't read visuddhimagga, though heard of it quite a lot ,but anyway i like the title very much. surely it must be essence of dhamma as the title suggests. with metta nidhi ********* #72811 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed May 30, 2007 2:02 am Subject: Re: hello from Shin nilovg Dear Shin, of course I remember you vividly, how you needed many kleenex to dry your tears, overcome by emotion. I have dear memories of you, so spontaneous. I am delighted you write again. I hear your voice and good comments on several of the Thai mp3 I listen to. As to the relic in the museum, this means a lot to Lodewijk and me. Whenever we are in Delhi, we can pay respect. We do not go so easily to Mumbai, it is out of the way. The Thais have built a worthy container for the relic and a kind of shrine, and there is a sign to remove one's shoes. Our impression was that in general people are silent and respectful. It is a very good room we find. I hope you post more now in our dsg group. Whatever comes to your mind spontaneously, no need to agree. Warmest regards, Nina. Op 30-mei-2007, om 3:44 heeft shiau_in_lin het volgende geschreven: > Your kind effort and > suggestion is greatly appreciated. Looking forward to your kind > reply. #72812 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed May 30, 2007 2:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. re Perfections N, 37 nilovg Dear Nidhi, thank you for your concern and kind words. I have a feeling that you attribute a meaning to unconditioned which is different from what I mean by this term. You think of unconditioned love: no matter what happens you love that person, no strings attached. I think in terms of paccayas, as we find in the Patthaana, the seventh book of the Abhidhamma. Let me quote what I wrote before: < The Paììhåna describes in detail all possible relations between phenomena. Each reality in our life can only occur because of a concurrence of different conditions which operate in a very intricate way. Hearing is conditioned by sound which impinges on the earsense. Both sound and earsense are rúpas which also arise because of their own conditions and therefore, they have to fall away. Thus, the reality they condition, hearing, cannot last either, it also has to fall away. Each conditioned reality can exist just for an extremely short moment. When we understand this it will be easier to see that there is no self who can exert control over realities. > < Realities do not arise by their own power, they are dependant on other phenomena which make them arise. Moreover, there is not any reality which arises from a single cause, there is a concurrence of several conditions through which realities arise.> < The "Visuddhimagga" (XVII, 68) defines condition, paccaya, as follows: ... When a state is indispensable to another state's presence or arising, the former is a condition for the latter. But as to characteristic, a condition has the characteristic of assisting; for any given state that assists the presence or arising of a given state is called the latter's condition. The words, condition, cause, reason, source, originator, producer, etc., are one in meaning though different in letter.... Thus, there are conditioning phenomena, paccaya-dhammas, and conditioned phenomena, paccayupanna-dhammas.> There are citta, cetasika and rupa which are conditioned dhammas, and the only unconditioned dhamma is nibbaana. Thus whatever cetasika such as dosa or metta arises, it never arises alone, it accompanies citta and other cetasikas which influence it, condition it. Perhaps now it is clearer what I mean? Nina. Op 30-mei-2007, om 7:46 heeft wisdomcompassion het volgende geschreven: > I think it is very > important to understand what is conditioned dhamma and what is not. > Only conditioned dhamma need purification, unconditioned dhammas are > result of such purification. #72813 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed May 30, 2007 2:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Consciousness at the center nilovg Hi Larry and Phil, the passage is not easy. There are fourteen kinds (See U Narada, Guide, p. 72) of presence-condition. There are among others: prenascence-presence, conascence-presence, postnascence-presence. Thus, an object has arisen before, but it can still be present. The essence seems to me: The namakkhandhas that are objects of consciousness have fallen away and can be objects in a following process. The rupakkhandha must be prearisen to be an object, it is weak at its arising moment. But after its arising it is still present and can be object of citta. It is shown that the khandhas can still be objects of clinging, but not for the arahat. Then one is truly homeless. This is the goal of the homeless life, the life of the monk. Nina. Op 30-mei-2007, om 3:30 heeft LBIDD@... het volgende geschreven: > The sense is that the form element (rupa), etc., is the home of > (object and presence condition for) volitional consciousness ("kammic > consciousness"). Using "presence condition" to cover the physical > "base" > (vatthu) relationship. Need clarification from NINA here. See note 19 #72814 From: "Phil" Date: Wed May 30, 2007 3:17 am Subject: Shackled by lust for the volitional formations aggregate (was "consciousness atr philofillet Hi Larry, Nina and all Indeed, as Nina said, a very difficult passage. Thanks for laying it all out Larry. (Are you able to use a scanner on BB's anthology? Surely you didn't type all that out!) Thank you also for your explanation to Larry, Nina. > The volitional formations element is the home of > consciousness; one whose consciousness is shackled by lust for the > volitional formations element is called one who roams about in a home. > It is in such a way that one roams about in a home.19 Could I just about this part? Is this akin to the teaching that mundane kusala is still keeping us in samsara? So if I have attachment to metta, for example, and it conditions good deeds, "shackled by lust for the volitional formations" applies and "roams about in a home" means roams in samsara? The good deeds conditioned hereby might result in a favorable rebirth, but not liberation. Is that what this is getting at? Thanks in advance. Metta, Phil #72815 From: "shiau_in_lin" Date: Wed May 30, 2007 4:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddha's relic shiau_in_lin Dear Sarah, I was asked by ThanYing to ask the Dhamma friends around the world about this matter. Personally, I do believe in practicing the dhamma in our daily life, especially thoroughly knowing or experiencing the citta,cetasika, rupa within the frame work of our own body and mind. And with the practicing of letting go in every direct experience. Like what Buddha said to Ananda that the worshipping and respecting the relic of the Buddha is not the duty of a dhamma practitioner or Bhikkhu. Only by direct experience of all true realities as it and thorough direct knowledge that all nature (nama&rupa) is impermanent,unsatisfactory, and not self, can take us out of all suffering. It's a personal experiences that can not shared around because all the experiences are in the Scriptures, Tipitaka already. It's not by analyzing or discussion, but direct experience only. So I really do not have anything to say anymore after this mail. BUT thankyou for your kind and sincere welcome, it is greatly appreciated. Anumodana to you, in spreading the dhamma because there are still lots of people who do not even know the word called "Dhamma". smile.. May your understanding of the dhamma bring you and Jon and everyone in this group peace. with respect and metta, Shin #72816 From: han tun Date: Wed May 30, 2007 4:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: New Series: Recollection of the Buddha, suggestions. hantun1 Dear James, Nina and All, I was quietly admiring James for his presentations on Mindfulness of Death and Recollection of the Buddha. I did not join in because I am not good at discussions. But now, since Nina has called me out I will have to write something. My first mindfulness of death was through AN 5.57 Upajjhatthana Sutta, where the Buddha asks us to always contemplate five things, one of which is: "I am subject to death, have not gone beyond death."(maranadhammomhi maranam anatiito) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an05/an05.057.than.html -------------------- The next sutta I like is AN 6.19 Maranassati Sutta: Mindfulness of Death (1) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an06/an06.019.than.html "But whoever develops mindfulness of death, thinking, 'O, that I might live for the interval that it takes to swallow having chewed up one morsel of food... for the interval that it takes to breathe out after breathing in, or to breathe in after breathing out, that I might attend to the Blessed One's instructions. I would have accomplished a great deal' - they are said to dwell heedfully. They develop mindfulness of death acutely for the sake of ending the effluents." -------------------- Among the Eight Ways of Recollecting Death which James had kindly presented, I like two ways. One is the death as having the appearance of a murderer, because it comes with birth and it takes away life. As budding toadstools always come up lifting dust on their tops, so beings are born with ageing and death. This is very true. All beings are born to die. Many times, I look at my children, when they are sick and suffering, and I have a guilty feeling that I have brought them to this world - for what? For them to suffer? I look at the animals on TV channels and see the young cubs killed by the predators. If they were to be killed within hours of their birth why were they born at all? We are also not better. The moment we are born we have the "death" sitting on us like the dust on the top of budding toadstools. The next way of recollecting Death is to contemplate it as the shortness of the moment: in the ultimate sense the life-moment of living beings is extremely short, being only as much as the occurrence of a single conscious moment. Just as a chariot wheel, when it is rolling, rolls [that is, touches the ground,] only on one point of [the circumference of] its tyre, and, when it is at rest, rests only on one point, so too, the life of living beings lasts only for a single conscious moment. When that consciousness has ceased, the being is said to have ceased. In that sense, as each citta falls away, we are dying billions of small deaths (khanika marana) in a day. What difference is there between these small deaths and the big one coming at the end of this life? In the same way, the death for this life is also the falling away of just one consciousness, that is "cuti citta." Nothing strange, nothing to be afraid of! We just do all meritorious deeds that we can before the death overtakes us. For me, the fear of death is not so much for myself. It is for my family members who are still depending on me for their two meals a day. How I contemplate to mitigate that fear (and also on Recollection of the Buddha) I will write some time later. Respectfully, Han #72817 From: "shiau_in_lin" Date: Wed May 30, 2007 4:30 am Subject: Re: hello from Shin shiau_in_lin Dear Nina, Thankyou very much for your reply. I have already told Thanying about what you have said and my obligation to her is over. I am very happy that I done what I was asked to do, so this responsibility won't bother my mind anymore. Yes, I have been very miserable when you saw me. There was something that I've experienced during my pracitice of vipassana meditation before the time that I met with Ajhan Sujin. At the time, NO ONE could explain my encounterment. I was actually feeling very desperate but could not express my urgency of finding the answer, until I had to cry whenever I ask question to Ajhan Sujin. BUT now the problem is solved. I've solved my problem 3 years ago and know what is the path and not the path. So I've come to understand that I really had to keep more quiet in my mind and just observe the realities as it is. It's more of the direct experiences as the mind see the changes of the mind and body as it actually is and realization of the 3 characteristic of impermanence, unsatisfactory and not self will revive itself in the mind. The realization will do its own work. Everything that I've experienced is all in the Scriptures already. So I don't really know what to say and believe that being quiet in my mind will bring more concentration to allow the mind to see the realities easier.. May your efforts in the Dhamma bring you the light of Enlightenment as quickly as possible for you. Take care.. with respect and metta, Shin #72818 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Wed May 30, 2007 4:41 am Subject: Re: New Series: Recollection of the Buddha rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > James: Interesting story. A baby was able to know that his father had > ordered him executed and that his mother was crying from the impending > death? He must have had psychic abilities. > __________ Dear James All we know is that this was the Bodhisatta, he had great wisdom. For me if I think "hmm he was a baby, maybe he had pyschic powers", or "could he really do that' or even start to doubt it happened then it wouldn't help the citta to become calm. I don't see the advantage in such reflections, why not just get to the heart and be inspired by the great beings actions. here are the details. It is Jataka 358 the Culladhammapada. The mother was hoilding the boy tightly after the king gave the order (he was jealous because the queen loved his son more than she loved the king)and the executioner gave her a blow and grabbed the child. the executioner then cut off his hands. The child never cried 'but born by patience and charity bore it" Next his feet were lopped off, and after that his head. It was at that end that the body was tossed in the air and caught on the sword, and then sliced up. Never was the great being angry while this was happening. > > > > Thinking about how even a baby can be detached in severe circumstances > > lifted the aversion I was feeling. > > James: That's great. > > > I know you think such reflections are mere thinking and shouldn't be > > considered real Dhamma. > > James: You shouldn't make that assumption about what I would think > about that occurance. Actually, I think that any thought which helps > to purify the mind of defilement is a skillful means. You were > practicing Right Effort as taught by the Buddha, so of course I > consider it real Dhamma. Ok I thought your comments about Nina James; "Nina was using the idea of "> `Recollection of the Buddha". To Nina, this can be done during > everyday life, like going to the grocery store and thinking, "Wow, the > Buddha was really great?EI wonder if pork chops are on sale??....The > Buddha was supreme!...I can't forget to buy crackers?Etc?E.". This is > not `Recollection of the Buddha', this is just a bunch of thinking.""" indicated you thought such reflections not helpful? Anyway glad you get inspired by Dhammapada stories, I read them over and over, as with Jataka. Robert #72819 From: "wisdomcompassion" Date: Wed May 30, 2007 5:37 am Subject: Re: Q. re Perfections N, 37 wisdomcompas... Dear Nina, thanks a lot for clarifying this. i think you are correct in understanding the word 'conditioned' in abhidhammic perspective, and otherwise also usage of this word in this sense makes more sense than the way i used. Also i liked the however i still think that maitri, karuna etc. don't fall away, like other dhammas. if these arise by itself these are signs of imporvement. i think it is very important to discriminate because when sati arises then what is to be watched and what should not be watched (or understand as u put it), must be clear. ........may be it was not really necessary for me to point out, however as per my understanding these realities (maitri, mudita, etc.) don't fall away even if they are watched. Where as defilements (aasavas) fall away when watched. with metta nidhi ****** #72820 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed May 30, 2007 5:44 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sammaadi.t.thi study corner scottduncan2 Dear Herman, I'm sure that we'll understand each other better, now that the root of ignorance, which was likely found in that tooth of yours, is gone. This is a very good thing! You can show me all about it now. H: "Sure, there is ignorance. But it exists as a relation between things, not as a thing in itself. I am ignorant in relation to someone who isn't ignorant. In myself, absolutely so to speak, I am just what I am....My problem with ignorance in our discussion is that it is said to be a condition for the arising of other states, while a lack of ignorance would be a condition for the non-arising of states. My view is that Ignorance is not a thing, it is a measurement, and measurements don't condition anything." Scott: I think I see where we differ more clearly. Whether I can actually summon a cogent statement about it is always doubtful. When ignorance is described in a comparative way, i.e., A has more or less of it when compared to B, ignorance is treated as a quantifiable thing, despite statements to the contrary. When ignorance is described as measurement it is also described as a thing, but seemingly some sort of insubstantial tool of sorts. AN X,61: "A first beginning of ignorance, O monks, cannot be discerned, of which it can be said, "Before that, there was no ignorance and it came to be after that." Though this is so, monks, yet a specific condition of ignorance is discerned. Ignorance, too, has its nutriment, I declare; and it is not without a nutriment. And what is the nutriment of ignorance? 'The five hindrances' should be the answer." Scott: In a note to this passage, Bh. Bodhi offers this opinion (pp.313-4): "Ignorance (avijja) is the first link in the chain of dependent origination. By showing that ignorance is itself conditioned, our text excludes the misconception that it is a metaphysical First Cause; the same holds true of craving which, according to the second noble truth, is the origin of suffering, but likewise not an uncaused cause. Hence the same statements about ignorance are made about craving in the next paragraph. Ignorance and craving, though very powerful root conditions of sa"msaara, are themselves mere conditioned phenomena and therefore can be eliminated, otherwise deliverance would be impossible..." Scott: This makes sense to me. The above shows that avijja is a conditioned dhamma - a thing, as it were. To consider that it is a 'root' is even more clarifying. The presence of avijja - a 'thing' - arises because of the presence of 'the hindrances' - other 'things'. Avijja, in turn, conditions other 'things'; 'avijjaa paccayaa sankhaaraa'. Ignorance as a root causes associated states to arise together and keeps them fixed together. H: "What you are arguing above is that an absence of x causes an absence of y (no cones, no colour vision). Which I have no problem with. That is also in line with DO. But the formulation that the absence of knowing (ignorance) causes the presence of formations etc is not in line with DO. In DO, presence =>other presence, and absence => other absence." Scott: Yeah, the damn fuzzy thinking again. But let's say the lack of cones is the root - let's have 'lack of cones' stand for ignorance by way of root condition. And let's have the particular visual experience of colour stand for the states conditioned by the root. (I'm speaking from experience here in part since I am somewhat colour blind.) Conditioned by 'lack of cones' (ignorance) colour vision is impaired. Do you know how colour blindness is measured? They have a series of circles consisting of variously coloured tiny dots which are configured to depict various numbers imbedded in the overall pattern. One with all the visual cones intact will see all the numbers. One with cones missing will be unable to distinguish some of the coloured dots and will be unable to see the numbers. I've been at some fancy powerpoint presentations where the combination of colours on the screen has rendered the words invisible to me, where my colleagues could see them fine. Over... Sincerely, Scott. #72821 From: "wisdomcompassion" Date: Wed May 30, 2007 5:52 am Subject: [dsg] Re: New Series: Recollection of the Buddha, suggestions. wisdomcompas... Hi Han, i liked the suttas that you brought to notice. Both of them are really good suttas. i really liked your thoughts on death. Quite moving indeed. metta nidhi ******* #72822 From: "nidive" Date: Wed May 30, 2007 6:04 am Subject: Re: Curiousity Corner 1 nidive Hi Herman, > The purpose of this curiousity corner is to demonstrate the need for > critical reading and evaluation of any of the texts, including the > Suttas, and any practices that such texts may prescribe. Do you believe it is possible to develop these supranormal powers? ------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.11.0.than.html Having been one he becomes many; having been many he becomes one. He appears. He vanishes. He goes unimpeded through walls, ramparts, and mountains as if through space. He dives in and out of the earth as if it were water. He walks on water without sinking as if it were dry land. Sitting cross-legged he flies through the air like a winged bird. With his hand he touches and strokes even the sun and moon, so mighty and powerful. He hears - by means of the divine ear-element, purified and surpassing the human - both kinds of sounds: divine and human, whether near or far. He knows the awareness of other beings, other individuals, having encompassed it with his own awareness. He recollects his manifold past lives, i.e., one birth, two births, three births, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, one hundred, one thousand, one hundred thousand, many aeons of cosmic contraction, many aeons of cosmic expansion, many aeons of cosmic contraction and expansion, [recollecting], 'There I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure and pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose there. There too I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure and pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose here.' He sees - by means of the divine eye, purified and surpassing the human - beings passing away and re-appearing, and he discerns how they are inferior and superior, beautiful and ugly, fortunate and unfortunate in accordance with their kamma: 'These beings - who were endowed with bad conduct of body, speech, and mind, who reviled the noble ones, held wrong views and undertook actions under the influence of wrong views - with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, in hell. But these beings - who were endowed with good conduct of body, speech, and mind, who did not revile the noble ones, who held right views and undertook actions under the influence of right views - with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the good destinations, in the heavenly world.' ------------------------------------------------------------------- What are your reasons for believing or not believing? Swee Boon #72823 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed May 30, 2007 6:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: hello from Shin nilovg Dear Shin, Lodewijk said to me give Shin my warmest greetings. He was so glad you posted. I forgot to mention that we believe that the Thai government under the patronage of his Majesty the King arranged for the relic shrine in the Museum. One cannot go against the King, you understand? But do not go away from dsg now! I am posting my dialogues with Lodewijk in Paris, what is sati. Today is no. 1. What do you think, Shin? It is so important to know what is sati and this subject is also for me difficult. We may mistake thinking for sati, but we have to be sure. You know, the Tipitaka gives little detail about the stages of insight, except the Path of Discrimination and the Visuddhimagga and co. But never many details. The reason is that it is personally realized (paccattam). But we have to check the texts: what should be known: paramattha dhammas. What are paramattha dhammas as different from concepts? We have to really check this in our own life, at this moment. Knowing what is the path and not the path you mention is a stage of insight and also really penetrating the three general characteristics of nama and rupa is accomplished during the stages of insight. It is a long, long process. Would you not like to discuss nama and rupa? Discussing helps, it helps to make clear things for oneself. I learn a lot by discussions among friends, as we are here in dsg, I find. Friends sometimes disagree, but this does not matter, it does not diminish the feelings of friendship. You will feel here at home, I am sure. Hoping to meet you here again, Nina. Op 30-mei-2007, om 13:30 heeft shiau_in_lin het volgende geschreven: > I've solved my problem 3 years ago and > know what is the path and not the path. #72824 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed May 30, 2007 6:48 am Subject: Perfections N, no 39 nilovg Dear friends, When other people behave badly we can realize that there are no people, only akusala dhammas which appear and that these arise according to their conditions. Then we will be more tolerant, we will not say or think, "These people are terrible'. There are accumulations of kusala dhammas and akusala dhammas which appear in our own and other people's behaviour. We can learn to have equanimity towards our own akusala and kusala. Instead of being disturbed by our anger, there can be right understanding which realizes anger as a conditioned nãma, and at that moment the citta is kusala. Neither kusala nor akusala belongs to us. We know that the perfections have to be developed so that kusala can become one's nature, but we should not think of accumulating kusala for ourselves, there should not be clinging to "my kusala" . When kusala dhammas arise they are beneficial, they can condition the arising of kusala dhamma again in the future. The commentary states that because of equanimity towards the vicissitudes of life the Bodhisatta's mind becomes completely unshakable in his determination to fulfil the practices he has undertaken. The vicissitudes of life are gain and loss, praise and blame, honour and dishonour, bodily ease and misery. These worldly conditions change all the time but one can face them with equanimity. If we really understand that the different situations in our life are conditioned, that they are beyond control, we do not prefer a particular situation to another one, we do not prefer anything else to the development of understanding of the present object. In that way the perfection of determination can develop, it can eventually become unshakable. During our pilgrimage we were in many kinds of situations, some pleasant, some unpleasant. One of our friends fell on a piece of iron grill and wounded her knee so badly that it had to be stitched, but she remained calm. Another friend was robbed, she lost in the train to Bodhgaya her handbag with her money and her passport. She had aversion at first, but later on she realized that one cannot change what has happened already. She said that if she would think of it again and again it would only cause her more unpleasantness. We also had many pleasant experiences. It was a happy occasion to be in the holy places where we could recollect the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha. At times there was dana all around me. One of the last evenings in Delhi there were in front of me friends making an offering to the monks, and while I looked backwards I saw the leader of our group making a speech to the drivers in order to thank them and offering them the money we all had collected for them. Whatever situation occurs, be it pleasant or unpleasant, it is conditioned. During our journey we were often reminded, "This is a new situation and it is conditioned". This helped me not to try to control things when the situation was not as I wanted it to be. Khun Sujin said: "A new situation can be a condition for the development of satipatthana. One should be ready to accept many kinds of situations. Gain and loss. No lobha when there is gain, not too much dosa when there is loss. Each moment is in itself another situation. Awareness can arise at any time. Then there is no clinging to another situation or another object, there is no selection of objects." ******* Nina. #72825 From: "Larry" Date: Wed May 30, 2007 6:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Consciousness at the center lbidd2 Hi Nina, Here's another idea: "kammic consciousness" could mean both kamma and resultant consciousness. In this way there would be a more inclusive sense of "consciousness" and physical base (vatthu) could easily be seen as a condition for resultant consciousness and would be an inclusive sense of "rupa" along with objects of 5-door consciousness. Otherwise "base" seems to be a little extraneous. Larry ------------------- SN22,3 p.860: "The form element, householder, is the home of consciousness; one whose consciousness is shackled by lust for the form element is called one who roams about in a home.18 The feeling element is the home of consciousness... The perception element is the home of consciousness... The volitional formations element is the home of consciousness; one whose consciousness is shackled by lust for the volitional formations element is called one who roams about in a home. It is in such a way that one roams about in a home.19 Note 18. ...The use of dhaatu as a synonym for khandha is unusual; more often the two are treated as headings for different schemes of classification. ... Spk resolves the compound, ruupadhaatumi raagena vinibaddham, and explains this consciousness as the kammic consciousness (kammavi~n~naa.na). The passage confirms the privileged status of consciousness among the five aggregates. While all the aggregates are conditioned phenomena marked by the three characteristics, consciousness serves as the connecting thread of personal continuity through the sequence of births. This ties up with the idea expressed at 12:38-40 that consciousness is the persisting element in experience that links together the old existence with the new one. The other four aggregates serve as the "stations of consciousness" (vi~n~naa.na.t.thitiyo, see 22:53-54). Even consciousness, however, is not a self-identical entity but a sequence of dependently arisen occasions of cognizing; see MN I 256-60. 19. Spk: Why isn't the consciousness element mentioned here (as a "home for consciousness")? To avoid confusion, for "home" is here spoken of in the sense of a condition (paccaya). An earlier kammic consciousness is a condition for both a later kammic consciousness and a resultant consciousness, and an (earlier) resultant consciousness for both a (later) resultant consciousness and a (later) kammic consciousness. Therefore the confusion could arise: "What kind of consciousness is intended here?" To avoid such confusion, consciousness is not included, and the teaching is expressed without disorder. Further, the other four aggregates, as objects (or bases: aaramma.navasena), are said to be "stations for the kammically generative consciousness" (abhisa.nkhaaravi~n~naa.na.t.thitiyo), and to show them thus consciousness is not mentioned here. #72826 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed May 30, 2007 6:48 am Subject: Conditions, Ch 2, no 3. nilovg Dear friends, When we are not engaged with what is wholesome javana-cittas which are akusala have the opportunity to arise. Hearing-consciousness may arise at this moment and we may not notice that clinging arises shortly afterwards. Clinging is bound to arise time and again. We think of what was seen, heard or experienced through the other senses most of the time with akusala cittas. There are many moments of ignorance, when we do not even realize that we are thinking. However, citta thinks time and again of one object or other. When one has not studied the Dhamma one confuses the different doorways and the different objects, one "joins" them together. One is inclined to believe that there is a self who experiences a "thing" which lasts. Only one object can be experienced at a time. We may wonder why we experience a particular object and why we shift our attention from one object to another. The "Atthasåliní" (Expositor II, Book II, Part I, Ch III, 333,334) explains that the rúpas which can be experienced through the senses become objects "by virtue of deliberate inclination" or "by virtue of intrusion". We should remember that even following our own inclination is conditioned, that there is no self who can decide about the experiencing of objects. The "Atthasåliní" gives examples of the experiencing of an object with "deliberate inclination": when the bowl (of a monk) is filled with food and brought, one who takes up a lump and examines whether it is hard or soft, is considering only the element of solidity, although heat as well as motion are present [1 ]. As an example of the experience of an object "by virtue of intrusion", the "Atthasåliní" states that he who slips, knocks his head against a tree or in eating bites on a stone, takes as object only solidity, on account of its intrusiveness, although heat and motion are present as well. Further on the "Atthasåliní states: But how does the mind shift from an object? In one of two ways:- by one's wish, or by excess of (a new) object. To expand: - one who goes to festivities held in honour of monasteries, etc., with the express wish of paying homage to the various shrines, to bhikkhus, images, and of seeing the works of carving and painting, and when he has paid his respects and seen one shrine or image, has a desire to pay homage to, and see another, and goes off. This is shifting by one's wish. And one who stands gazing at a great shrine like a silver mountain peak, when subsequently a full orchestra begins to play, releases the visible object and shifts to audible object; when flowers or scents possessing delightful odour are brought, he releases the audible object and shifts to the olfactory object. Thus the mind is said to shift owing to excess of (a new) object. ---------- 1. The four great Elements of solidity, cohesion, heat and motion always arise together, but only one rúpa at a time can be experienced. Solidity, heat and motion are tangible object, but cohesion cannot be experienced through the bodysense, only through the mind-door. ******** Nina. #72827 From: han tun Date: Wed May 30, 2007 7:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: New Series: Recollection of the Buddha, suggestions. hantun1 Dear Nidhi, Thank you very much for your kind words. Respectfully, Han #72828 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed May 30, 2007 4:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Curiousity Corner 1 upasaka_howard Hi, Herman (and Phil) - In a message dated 5/30/07 1:43:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofmeister@... writes: > Hi Howard and Phil, > > On 29/05/07, upasaka@... wrote: > > > > But I am uncomfortable with intentionally trotting out a series of > > suttas of this sort for the purpose of their disparagement. > > I'm afraid you have misread my intentions. ------------------------------------------ Howard: I thought the point was to show obvious elements of the suttas that are clearly silly, even amusing by modern standards, and that should be dismissed, thereby showing the need to not dispense with critical judgement and go ahead accepting everything, no matter how questionable, on faith. I agree that such sutta sections can definitely be found. My reservation is in making a project out of displaying them, because it can have UNintended consequences, in my opinion. -------------------------------------- > > > I think it is clear > > that a number of such can be found, but an emphasis on them is not > something > > that I would view as useful. > > Exactly so. ------------------------------------- Howard: But displaying a lot of them *would* emphasize them. Overdoing this could incline some folks to thinking "Hmm, how could the Buddha really have been a buddha or even an arahant if he writes this!" Some people are already dismayed by the few statements attributed to the Buddha that seem misogynist, and this could be the final straw for some. When to express things usefully depends not only on their truth, but also on the timing and the context, and I would add, on the emphasis in or extent of expressing them. ------------------------------------ > > I think that presenting occasional examples > > pointing out the importance of using judgement and not slavishly accepting > any and > > all things that appear in suttas is useful and important and a remedy for > > mindless acceptance, but making such into a project that displays > amusement at sutta > > content in a whole series of suttas would tend to inculcate an unhealthy > > degree of cynicism and scepticism as regards the Buddha and his teachings. > > This is where you have both misread me. I tried to make it clear that > I was posting in order to show how stupid, if not plain silly, it > would be to dispense with one's critical faculties, and just accept > the wholesale literal truth of everything Theravadan. ------------------------------------------- Howard: I understand! I know why you are doing it. I have no doubt about it. But folks will be amused by these cloud-god types of explanation and by Mount Sineru descriptions of the universe, and they may well draw the conclusion that the Buddha wasn't an enlightened being at all, but an adherent to the "primitive superstitions of his time". Seeing such things occasionally is something that happens, and each Buddhist finds an "explanation" that suits him/her, but being presented with a "curiosity corner" in which such things are the main fare isn't a good idea, IMO, as it is likely to lead to sceptical doubt in many. I KNOW this is not your intention!! But I think it could well be the result, hence my reservations. ------------------------------------------- > > > The thing is, you see, that folks who read such suttas and think that > > nothing in them requires any further explanation, but that they should be > > literally accepted on faith as is, are typically "true believers" with a > felt > > psychological "need to believe," and thousands of good examples will still > give no > > pause for them. So all that a series of "problematical" examples will > > accomplish is, IMO, a casting of doubt on the Buddha and his Dhamma. So, > the bottom > > line is that I think that such an approach can be more harmful than > helpful. > > I'm sorry, Herman, but I'm afraid I'm less than enthusiastic about this > > Curiosity Corner. > > I have posted only one, 1, uno, ein, eun, een :-) problematical sutta. > And you may just have to take my word for it, there are hundreds of > little gems of nonsense in the commentaries. It is my sincere hope > that this curiousity corner has already done it's job, but if there > are any more urgings and manipulations with regards to the > infallibility of all "the ancients", I will post another gem. > ------------------------------------------ Howard: Well, I sure don't buy this "infallibility of 'the ancients'" either! I think that one who relinquishes his own judgement, accepting the judgement of others without his/her own oversight, is foolish to say the least. Saddha is confidence based on one's own testing, not on blind faith in the authority of person, scripture, or tradition. ------------------------------------------- And in> > so doing, I am merely providing a balance so that the readers can > critically decide what is relevant to the Buddhist path. > > BTW, I think the practice of equating the Tipitaka and it's multiple > layers of commentary with Dhamma, is grossly misleading. Casting doubt > on the worth of some texts can in no way be construed as casting doubt > on Dhamma. > > Herman > ======================= With metta, Howard #72829 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed May 30, 2007 4:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Curiousity Corner 1 upasaka_howard Hi, James - In a message dated 5/30/07 1:49:41 AM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@... writes: > > I was referring to this line you wrote: > > "But I am uncomfortable with intentionally trotting out a series of > suttas of this sort for the purpose of their disparagement…" > > Which points to an unwholesome intention rather than a possible > unwholesome result. But, I'm glad I read you wrong. :-) > ========================= Well, I *do* think that silliness should be pointed to as such, and I do think that slavish acceptance should be disparaged. But I would restrict that to the cases of qustionablematerial being posted by others as literal truth. I've responded negatively to such postings more than once myself, recently to some Therigatha materials and more recently with regard to claimed 80,000-year lifetimes for humans. I don't hesitate to react with criticism to acceptance of problematical material based on faith in authority when it arises. I simply think that a project to seek out questionable materials for repeated posting can have negative, unintended consequences. It is not unwholesome intention that I was pointing to, but unintended, unwholesome consequences. With metta, Howard #72830 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed May 30, 2007 11:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: New Series: Recollection of the Buddha, suggestions. nilovg Dear Han, I am delighted with your post. So many excellent points, beginning with a very important sutta I read at first on the Pali list:<'I am subject to aging, have not gone beyond aging.' This is the first fact that one should reflect on often, whether one is a woman or a man, lay or ordained. "'I am subject to illness, have not gone beyond illness.' ... "'I am subject to death, have not gone beyond death.' ... "'I will grow different, separate from all that is dear and appealing to me.' ... "'I am the owner of my actions, heir to my actions, born of my actions, related through my actions, and have my actions as my arbitrator. Whatever I do, for good or for evil, to that will I fall heir.' ...> My Pali teacher said before that he reflects on this sutta every day. I find the end very meaningful: This sutta as actually all suttas (also when only implied, not expressively mentioned) point to satipatthana now. You so meaningfully remind us that life is actually one moment of citta that arises and passes away: Pain and sickness: these are results of kamma and they do only last one moment of citta. We are heirs to kamma. What else can be done but developing the Path the Buddha taught out of compassion. LIfe is short, there is just the present moment to be known. When looking at your children: no worry. They are heirs to their kamma. Kamma brings its appropriate result and this helps us to have more equanimity. You write: We are born humans into this life and we have the opportunity to listen to the Dhamma and develop understanding, even if it is very little. With much appreciation, Nina. Op 30-mei-2007, om 13:22 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > My first mindfulness of death was through AN 5.57 > Upajjhatthana Sutta, where the Buddha asks us to > always contemplate five things, one of which is: > "I am subject to death, have not gone beyond > death."(maranadhammomhi maranam anatiito) #72831 From: TGrand458@... Date: Wed May 30, 2007 8:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Curiousity Corner 1 TGrand458@... In a message dated 5/30/2007 9:39:53 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, upasaka@... writes: Howard: Well, I sure don't buy this "infallibility of 'the ancients'" either! I think that one who relinquishes his own judgement, accepting the judgement of others without his/her own oversight, is foolish to say the least. Saddha is confidence based on one's own testing, not on blind faith in the authority of person, scripture, or tradition. Hi Herman and Howard I was accused (more or less) of using my own judgement this week ... by someone saying that the commentaries were surely far better expressions of understanding than what I was likely to have. Therefore, I guess this person's idea is that I shouldn't attempt to have my own understanding, but should just follow the commentaries by rote. If I did that, I'd be a mindless robot and could never achieve "my own" insight. You both have good solid points. I doubt there are any this the DSG group that will be turned away from Buddhism by highlighting these passages. Probably would be a poor way to teach an introduction Buddhism course. And probably only those with the idea of discrediting Buddhism would do so. I think Herman is using these passages for a more mature Buddhist audience to make a point about abrogating their insight in lieu of believing in books. The books could potentially lead you to believe in stupid things...unless you clear up the understandings and see things as they are "for yourself." Eventually we need to take off the training wheels...or at least loosen them a little. ;-) TG #72832 From: "colette" Date: Wed May 30, 2007 3:21 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Insight is "Vision," Not Merely Experience. ksheri3 Hi Ken, My point in studying other views, doctrines, etc, is to get a broader picture which will help me to better understand the doctrine in it's entirety. Notice, if you will, that wars are a result of the Cyclops (Greek mythology) walking around, or that could be a man that only lives to have his phallus, lingum, worshipped, in which case his "mind's eye" would be that third eye the Hindus so appreciate but that eye would be the view from the urethra, it opens at the end of the penis. We can go in sooooooooooooo many different directions here now that I've established the basis of thought that a percentage of society has and honors as TRADITION. I don't have the time, unfortunately, but I'm sure the peanut gallery is saying their praises that I chose not to go into those de-tails. ;-) > I am not sure such a broad knowledge is necessary. colette: I'm gonna let that statement stand alone for a few minutes on a back burner since some of the moisture has to burn off before we can use this ingredient. > The 'totality' > that Buddhism addresses is actually the namas and rupas of the > present moment. colette: I hope your seat belt is fastened securely! What exactly is a "present moment"? A moment is understood, but when you qualify a specific moment as being present you automatically manifest the duality of not-present. Are you implying The Past Dhamma/Dharma or The Future Dhamma/Dharma? There is a tremendous quality that Western societies completely obey as a slave obey's a master and that is the exhaltation of The Past whether in dharma/dhamma form or not, as the way society and life are to be lived but when The Past is properly examined they then change the subject to The Future, whether in dharma/dhamma for or not, as their means of operation. For instance if you committ yourself and your family and your country to a course of actions claiming that it is BECAUSE OF (CAUSUALITY) THE PAST DHARMA/DHAMMA, then you must carry the burder of responsibility for that FALSE VIEW, WRONG VIEW. It is a committment you make and you made for yourself. We will not be touching on the Saving Face aspects today. As for the namas and rupas, now that you know I AM SPECIFICALLY FOCUSED SINCE YOU CHOSE THE RULES OF THE GAME, Present = now, not yesterday, the day before yesterday, nor is even when the buddha was living and preaching to his sangha, nor is it tomorrow or the day after tomorrow, etc. Do you intend on translating the material which we call the Buddhist Doctrines into current, present, tense so that we can better understand? Is a nama the exact same thing now as compared to when the doctrines were first written down, or when the Theradan monks concsiously discriminated against another group of monks to not allow them into the cave where the entire sangha could debate, pick and choose, what goes into this doctrine? The same question applies to Rupas as well.<....> <....>At least I extend to you the chance that you are above viewing life through the myopia as though your were aspiring to become that mythological creature called the Cyclops, <...> I think enough fat has been burned off of that ingredient I first placed on a back burner. > I am not sure such a broad knowledge is necessary. colette: necessary means what? Is there only a single debt that has to be paid? I mean that I suppose you have "a promise to pay", a mortgage, which requires fixed payments but if you only see that there is one way to pay that debt then you are certainly as predjudiced as the monks that held the first Council, Turning of the Wheel. <....> > But clinging to the past needs to be understood as > a fetter, doesn't it? colette: do you mean to tell me that you forgot the past the second you wrote that clinging to the past is a fetter, since I clearly take what teachings I can get hold of in the little time I'm allowed on a computer and I apply those same teachings DIRECTLY to the HERE AND NOW. I am certainly not clinging to the past as being my salvation. I have let the past go the second I get a hold of it since it no longer applies. What applies is what happens today and tomorrow. Black Holes are nothing more than stars that have spent their fuel supply and so they issue no light, they only consume the present and the future. They have no ability to create a past. Their only function is to stop the present and the future. Don't you remember that day you and the creditor shook hands as he gave you the pen to sign the contractual agreement to pay for a prison in suburbia? Have a good night. I've gotta be going. I hope to check in later. toodles, colette #72833 From: han tun Date: Wed May 30, 2007 3:53 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: New Series: Recollection of the Buddha, suggestions. hantun1 Dear Nina (and All), Thank you very much for your post which contains very useful suggestions. I also recite often the Pali words from AN 5.57 (for which you had given the English translation). (1) jaraa dhammomhi jaram anatiito (2) vyaadhi dhammomhi vyaadhim anatiito (3) marana dhammomhi maranam anatiito (4) sabbehi me piyehi manaapehi naanaabhaavo vinaabhaavo (5) kammassakomhi kammadaayaado kammayoni kammabandhu kammapatisarano, yam kammam karissaami kalyaanam vaa paapakam vaa, tassa daayaado bhavissaamhi. You wrote I should not worry when looking at my children, because they are heirs to their kamma, and that thought should help me to have more equanimity. You are right, Nina, I used to remember the above Pali words (4) and (5) on such occasions. As regards the last part of the sutta, I was a bit confused with the following: "Further, a disciple of the noble ones considers this: 'I am not the only one subject to illness, who has not gone beyond illness.'... 'I am not the only one subject to death, who has not gone beyond death.' ----- and so on. ' When he/she often reflects on this, the [factors of the] path take birth. He/she sticks with that path, develops it, cultivates it. As he/she sticks with that path, develops it and cultivates it, the fetters are abandoned, the obsessions destroyed." Just by considering "I am not the only one who is subject to such things; there are also others who are subject to such things, how can one attain the Path (maggo sa~njaayati)? I asked a Sayadaw on this point. He said such considerations will lead to samvega ~naana, but without prior vipassanaa ~naana one cannot attain magga ~naana. This is the case where the Buddha did not say explicitly but we must know its implications. It may be like what you wrote: "This sutta as actually all suttas (also when only implied, not expressively mentioned) point to satipatthana now." Finally, I take note of your comment: "We are born humans into this life and we have the opportunity to listen to the Dhamma and develop understanding, even if it is very little." Thank you very much. Respectfully, Han --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Han, > I am delighted with your post. So many excellent > points, beginning > with a very important sutta I read at first on the > Pali list:<'I am > subject to aging, have not gone beyond aging.' This > is the first fact > that one should reflect on often, whether one is a > woman or a man, > lay or ordained. > #72834 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed May 30, 2007 4:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Shackled by lust for the volitional formations aggregate (was "consciousness atr lbidd2 Hi Phil, Phil: "The volitional formations element is the home of consciousness; one whose consciousness is shackled by lust for the volitional formations element is called one who roams about in a home. It is in such a way that one roams about in a home.19 "Could I just about this part? Is this akin to the teaching that mundane kusala is still keeping us in samsara? So if I have attachment to metta, for example, and it conditions good deeds, "shackled by lust for the volitional formations" applies and "roams about in a home" means roams in samsara? The good deeds conditioned hereby might result in a favorable rebirth, but not liberation. Is that what this is getting at?" Larry: Basically, yes. "Home" is the objects we are attached to, and our attachment is keeping us at home. SN22,3 p.860: "The form element, householder, is the home of consciousness; one whose consciousness is shackled by lust for the form element is called one who roams about in a home.18 The feeling element is the home of consciousness... The perception element is the home of consciousness... The volitional formations element is the home of consciousness; one whose consciousness is shackled by lust for the volitional formations element is called one who roams about in a home. It is in such a way that one roams about in a home.19 L: You might also look at it as having a familiar, "homey", confining, stuffy, sticky relationship with the 5 khandhas, perhaps similar to your own home. Notice the sutta is addressed to a householder. Contrast that with roaming about homeless and unattached. Here is another paragraph: "And how, householder, does one roam about in an abode? By diffusion and confinement in the abode [consisting in] the sign of forms, one is called one who roams about in an abode.22 By diffusion and confinement in the abode [consisting in] the sign of sounds ... the sign of odours ... the sign of tastes ... the sign of tactile objects ... the sign of mental phenomena, one is called one who roams about in an abode." Note 22. I read the long compound with Be ad Se ruupanimittaniketavisaaravinibandha. Ea has -saara- in place of -visaara-, The interpretation is as difficult as it looks. I have unravelled it with the aid of Spk, which explains: "Form itself is the 'sign' (nimitta) in the sense that it is a condition for defilements, and it is also the abode (consisting in) the 'sign of forms,' being an abode in the sense of a dwelling place, namely, for the act of objectification. By the two terms 'diffusion and confinement' (visaara-vinibandha) what is meant is the expansion of defilements and their confining (or binding) nature. (Thus the full compound should be resolved:) 'diffusion and confinement in the abode (consisting in) the sign of forms.' "One is called 'one who roams about in an abode': one is called 'one who roams about in a dwelling place' by making (forms) an object." L: One could also regard relating to rupas as signs as diffusion and confinement in the sense that signs add imaginary elements, hence diffusion, and signs are confining in the sense that they are superficial. The alternative would be to relate to rupas simply as they are. Larry #72835 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed May 30, 2007 5:23 pm Subject: Re: Discussions in Paris, 1. buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear friends, > > Discussions in Paris. I. > > Just before we left for our holidays in France, our neighbour had > died. We had seen him when he was in bed and already in the process > of dying, and then after that, shortly before we left, we looked at > his dead body. We were impressed by this reminder of the shortness of > life. Not long after this event we heard of the death of a colleague > who was only four years older than Lodewijk and this again made us > think that death will come soon. This motivated us to discuss Dhamma > often, and in particular to discuss Satipatthana. > > I read to Lodewijk all the dialogues with Howard on this subject, > explaining first sati of the level of daana and siila: sati which is > non-forgetfulness of kusala. When there is an opportunity for kusala, > we are often forgetful and let it pass. For instance when we are in > the company of others who tell tales about someone else, we are > likely to join in. But, when sati arises, it is a condition to > abstain from useless speech. This is a very nice piece of writing. I like the story of the death, seeing the body, and how it was a motivation for further Dhamma practice (discussion). Satipatthana can be seen in terms of keeping the precepts, etc., and it can also be seen in terms of the Four Foundations of Mindfulness. It almost seems as if there are two levels of satipatthana. Do any of the Abhidhamma/Commentary texts describe a mundane and a supramundane satipatthana, as they do for jhana? Metta, James ps. You have two other posts to me but I won't respond to them until tomorrow or later. That will be one way to slow you down! ;-)) #72836 From: "Phil" Date: Wed May 30, 2007 5:23 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: New Series: Recollection of the Buddha, suggestions. philofillet Hello Han and all This is without doubt the singlemost important sutta for me, for the last several months. I reflect on it intentionally every morning, and whenever such reflection arises during the day. (I have no doubt that intentionally reflecting on aging, illness and death conditions more such reflection later in the day. I haven't followed James series closely, but if there is debate on this point I certainly wouldn't join it. It's so obvious!) > I also recite often the Pali words from AN 5.57 (for > which you had given the English translation). > (1) jaraa dhammomhi jaram anatiito > (2) vyaadhi dhammomhi vyaadhim anatiito > (3) marana dhammomhi maranam anatiito > (4) sabbehi me piyehi manaapehi naanaabhaavo > vinaabhaavo > (5) kammassakomhi kammadaayaado kammayoni kammabandhu > kammapatisarano, yam kammam karissaami kalyaanam vaa > paapakam vaa, tassa daayaado bhavissaamhi. The first four condition could be seen by non-Buddhists as a downer. Why make a point of reflecting that one will get sick, will get old, will die, and will have all ones loved ones taken away. But the key is #5! We are the owners of our deeds, our deeds are our ownly refuge. I feel a real sense of what I guess is samvega most every morning after reflecting on this. (I do it before my meditation, and after.) I'm happy to see the Pali. I have heard sayadaws getting students to chant it before Dhamma talks. > You wrote I should not worry when looking at my > children, because they are heirs to their kamma, and > that thought should help me to have more equanimity. > You are right, Nina, I used to remember the above Pali > words (4) and (5) on such occasions. I don't know if this absolves us of worrying about this, because surely there is a desire to share the Buddha's teaching in a way that helps to condition more profitable kamma for our loved ones. Yes, the Buddha's words only get in to the heart that is ready for whatever reason to hear them, but...in any case, we know that the Buddha's teaching is the greatest inheritance we could possibly leave anyone - within reason. > > As regards the last part of the sutta, I was a bit > confused with the following: > > "Further, a disciple of the noble ones considers this: > 'I am not the only one subject to illness, who has not > gone beyond illness.'... 'I am not the only one > subject to death, who has not gone beyond death.' > ----- and so on. > ' When he/she often reflects on this, the [factors of > the] path take birth. He/she sticks with that path, > develops it, cultivates it. As he/she sticks with that > path, develops it and cultivates it, the fetters are > abandoned, the obsessions destroyed." > > Just by considering "I am not the only one who is > subject to such things; there are also others who are > subject to such things, how can one attain the Path > (maggo sa~njaayati)? I asked a Sayadaw on this point. > He said such considerations will lead to samvega > ~naana, but without prior vipassanaa ~naana one cannot > attain magga ~naana. This is the case where the Buddha > did not say explicitly but we must know its > implications. This is an important part of the sutta too. I have come up with a very effective modification, in my opinion. In addition to reflecting that I am not the only one who is subject to aging, illness, death and loss of loved ones, I add a bit from the "Burning" sutta and reflect that I am not the only one whose mind is burning iwth greed, hated and delusion, we are all like that. And then the verse that is added to the sutta - it would be unfitting for me, who is subject to aging, illnes and death to feel disgust or aversion at others who are subject to the same thing. (I think this verse was added in a very wise way to make sure that this meditation on aging,illness and death can condition a sense of friendliness. Otherwise, it could cause us to be prematurely revolted by all that life involves.) Here too I add my "burning" reflection - it would be unfitting for me, whose mind is burning with greed, hatred and delusion, to feel hatred or disgust or anger toward others who are in the same boat. And then, I open the curtain that I face while meditating, and look out on the quiet street I can see from my room, kids going to school, business people going to work, and so on, and I continue my reflection on the above themes. Needless to say, when I myself leave to go to work, my mindstream is still flowing in this wholesome, friendly direction, and there is a lot more reflection on aging, ilnness and deatha nd ownership of kamma during the day than there would be without, and a fairly deep and constant sense of friendliness and concern towards people. (I suppose this might be metta and karuna, I don't know, and don't need to know.) I really don't know how any Buddhist could bear doing without intentional reflection on/recollection of the Buddhist teachings every morning! Each and every morning, without fail. Metta, Phil #72837 From: "Phil" Date: Wed May 30, 2007 5:29 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Shackled by lust for the volitional formations aggregate (was "consciousness atr philofillet Hi Larry > > > "Could I just about this part? Is this akin to the teaching that mundane > kusala is still keeping us in samsara? So if I have attachment to metta, > for example, and it conditions good deeds, "shackled by lust for the > volitional formations" applies and "roams about in a home" means roams > in samsara? The good deeds conditioned hereby might result in a > favorable rebirth, but not liberation. Is that what this is getting at?" > > Larry: Basically, yes. "Home" is the objects we are attached to, and our > attachment is keeping us at home. Phil: Yes, I want to keep reflecting on this. > > SN22,3 p.860: "The form element, householder, is the home of > consciousness; one whose consciousness is shackled by lust for the form > element is called one who roams about in a home.18 The feeling element > is the home of consciousness... The perception element is the home of > consciousness... The volitional formations element is the home of > consciousness; one whose consciousness is shackled by lust for the > volitional formations element is called one who roams about in a home. > It is in such a way that one roams about in a home.19 > > L: You might also look at it as having a familiar, "homey", confining, > stuffy, sticky relationship with the 5 khandhas, perhaps similar to your > own home. Notice the sutta is addressed to a householder. Contrast that > with roaming about homeless and unattached. Ph: I like that, "stuffy", "sticky", of course we know of "dusty" as well. I also like the similes for the khandas that get at their treachorous (sp?) nature, the treachorous servants. The parts about diffusion and confinement are a bit too "knotty" for me at this time. Thanks Larry. Metta, Phil #72838 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed May 30, 2007 5:37 pm Subject: Articles by B. Bodhi buddhatrue Hi Sarah and Rob M., Thank you, Sarah, for your off-list e-mail about the articles by B. Bodhi ("Jhana and the Lay Disciple" and "Bodhi Nanavira"). I would reply to that e-mail off-list but something is wrong with my mail program and I can't reply to any e-mails today. Very strange. Anyway, yes I have read both articles and I recently re-read the article about jhana, which I will comment on to Nina either tomorrow or next week. Rob M., I read the article about Nanavira some time ago and, unlike you, I didn't find B. Bodhi's tone in the article pleasant at all. He seemed to be holding a personal grudge against Nanavira and seemed really irritated that Nanavira should have any type of "underground" following at all. But, again, I guess it depends on how you read things. It isn't always so good to guess people's motivations. (I would have responded to your "Angry Monks" thread but I have too many threads going as it is. Maybe I will come back to that subject.) As I remember, the main opposition that B. Bodhi has against Nanavira is that Nanavira chose to interpret dependent origination in terms of the single moment rather than across lifetimes. However, as I recently posted from the Vism., there is a tradition in Theravada to view the single moment in terms of life and death- so Nanavira's interpretation is not as completely far-fetched as Bodhi paints it out to be. Maybe, when I have time, I will go back to that article as well. Goodness, so many pots cooking! ;-)) Metta, James #72839 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Wed May 30, 2007 6:25 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Curiousity Corner 1 egberdina Hi Swee Boon, On 30/05/07, nidive wrote: > > > Hi Herman, > > > Do you believe it is possible to develop these supranormal powers? > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.11.0.than.html > > > What are your reasons for believing or not believing? Thanks for the questions. I believe there is no limit to what can be experienced, so certainly the experience of those supranormal powers is not excluded as a possibility. I don't think I have any good reasons for believing that, I just know I have experienced plenty of very unnormal stuff, and see no reason to place a limit on what is possible. People will differ in what labels they use to describe their experiences, though. For example, I do not label certain experiences which I regularly have as being memories of former lives, while I imagine that other people might well describe similar experiences that way. I think the important thing to focus on and see clearly is that no experience is an experience of my self, whether present or past or future. Herman #72840 From: han tun Date: Wed May 30, 2007 7:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: New Series: Recollection of the Buddha, suggestions. hantun1 Dear Phil, Thank you very much for your comments, especially your modification on the last part of the sutta and your comments on the verse which was added to the sutta. I like your addition of your "burning" reflection - it would be unfitting for me, whose mind is burning with greed, hatred and delusion, to feel hatred or disgust or anger toward others who are in the same boat. I also connect the second stanza of the verse with the following passages from the sutta. As I maintained this attitude - knowing the Dhamma without paraphernalia - I overcame all intoxication with health, youth, & life as one who sees renunciation as rest. (1) But when they often reflect on that fact [ageing], that youth's intoxication with youth (yobbane yobbanamado) will either be entirely abandoned or grow weaker... (2) But when they often reflect on that fact [illness], that healthy person's intoxication with health (aarogye aarogyamado) will either be entirely abandoned or grow weaker... (3) But when they often reflect on that fact [death], that living person's intoxication with life (jiivite jiivitamado) will either be entirely abandoned or grow weaker... Respectfully, Han --- Phil wrote: > > Hello Han and all > > This is without doubt the singlemost important > sutta for me, for > the last several months. I reflect on it > intentionally every > morning, and whenever such reflection arises during > the day. (I > have no doubt that intentionally reflecting on > aging, illness and > death conditions more such reflection later in the > day. I haven't > followed James series closely, but if there is > debate on this point > I certainly wouldn't join it. It's so obvious!) > #72841 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed May 30, 2007 7:10 pm Subject: Re: New Series: Recollection of the Buddha buddhatrue Hi Robert, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" > wrote: > > > > > James: Interesting story. A baby was able to know that his father > had > > ordered him executed and that his mother was crying from the > impending > > death? He must have had psychic abilities. > > > > __________ > Dear James > All we know is that this was the Bodhisatta, he had great wisdom. For > me if I think "hmm he was a baby, maybe he had pyschic powers", > or "could he really do that' or even start to doubt it happened then > it wouldn't help the citta to become calm. I don't see the advantage > in such reflections, why not just get to the heart and be inspired by > the great beings actions. James: Okay, then don't focus on those aspects. I was just throwing out an observation; it wasn't a big deal. People have different accumulations/temperaments and so different things are helpful for different people. For me, such stories are not very helpful because I can't get past the details! ;-)) Jataka Tales are not helpful for me because they don't have enough details. This is probably because of my years of literature study; I had to be very aware of details. In the story you give, it couldn't be a condition for me to develop calm- I am too upset thinking about a baby being chopped up into pieces! ;-)) here are the details. > > It is Jataka 358 the Culladhammapada. The mother was hoilding the boy > tightly after the king gave the order (he was jealous because the > queen loved his son more than she loved the king)and the executioner > gave her a blow and grabbed the child. the executioner then cut off > his hands. The child never cried 'but born by patience and charity > bore it" > Next his feet were lopped off, and after that his head. It was at > that end that the body was tossed in the air and caught on the sword, > and then sliced up. > Never was the great being angry while this was happening. > > > > > > > > > > Thinking about how even a baby can be detached in severe > circumstances > > > lifted the aversion I was feeling. > > > > James: That's great. > > > > > I know you think such reflections are mere thinking and shouldn't > be > > > considered real Dhamma. > > > > James: You shouldn't make that assumption about what I would think > > about that occurance. Actually, I think that any thought which > helps > > to purify the mind of defilement is a skillful means. You were > > practicing Right Effort as taught by the Buddha, so of course I > > consider it real Dhamma. > > Ok I thought your comments about Nina > James; "Nina was using the idea of > "> `Recollection of the Buddha". To Nina, this can be done during > > everyday life, like going to the grocery store and thinking, "Wow, > the > > Buddha was really great?EI wonder if pork chops are on sale??....The > > Buddha was supreme!...I can't forget to buy crackers?Etc?E.". This > is > > not `Recollection of the Buddha', this is just a bunch of > thinking.""" > > indicated you thought such reflections not helpful? James: This may seem an apparent contradiction, but it really isn't. Allow me to explain using "Recollection of the Buddha" as an example, since I am currently posting about that. There are three ways in which one could approach "Recollection of the Buddha": 1. Thinking about the Buddha 2. Thinking about the Buddha as skillful means 3. "Recollection of the Buddha" as meditation practice The first one, just thinking about the Buddha, is not a Dhamma practice, but is rather an academic pursuit. I could think about the Buddha all day (on and off), ponder the details of his life and enlightenment, and then consider myself well-versed in the details of the Buddha. This is just an academic pursuit. I could then write a book about the Buddha, write papers, give lectures, etc., but all of that thinking about the Buddha didn't purify my mind. The second one, thinking about the Buddha as a skillful means, is a Dhamma practice. In that case, I think about the Buddha in order to develop a more peaceful, loving, and wise mind. When any of the defilements arise within a day, like greed or anger, then I would think about the Buddha so that the defilement would go away and be replaced by a more wholesome mind state. This is using "Recollection of the Buddha" as a skillful means because it helps to purify the mind. It falls under Right Effort as taught by the Buddha. The third way is using "Recollection of the Buddha" as a meditation practice. I would go to a secluded spot, sit down, and think about the wonderful qualities of the Buddha. What I would think about would be very detailed and require quite an extensive amount of time. My thoughts would be focused on the Buddha until extreme concentration developed and the defilements were greatly reduced/suppressed. This meditation would help to condition greater and more effective use of "Recollection of the Buddha" during everyday life. Robert, you wrote to me than when you started to feel impatient, you reflected on that story of the bodhisattva and the impatience went away to be replaced by patience. That is a skillful means and Right Effort. That is excellent! However, if you wrote to me that you had some free time in line at the bakery and so you started thinking about the bodhisattva, with no corresponding feeling of calm, etc., then that is just thinking. It wouldn't help to purify the mind and isn't real Dhamma practice. Can you see the difference? For some reason, the students of KS seem to think that one needs to pick between meditation practice and everyday practice, but in actuality there is no need to pick. You do both! They both support each other. Like I often read Sarah stating something to the effect of "Why wait to develop understanding of nama and rupa? It should be done now." Well, no one is telling her to wait! Just because you practice meditation that doesn't mean your sitting practice is the only time during the day when you practice the Buddha's teaching. One can and should have both. I hope that this explains the matter more clearly for you. Metta, James #72842 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed May 30, 2007 10:45 pm Subject: Mind Reading! bhikkhu5 Friends: How does one gain the Mind Reading Ability? Once when the Venerable Anuruddha was dwelling at Savatthi in Jeta's Grove , in AnÄ?thapindika 's Park, a number of Bhikkhus went to the Venerable Anuruddha & exchanged polite greetings with him. Then they sat down & asked the Ven. Anuruddha : Venerable Sir: What has the Venerable Anuruddha developed & cultivated so that he has attained to his famous greatness of direct knowledge? It is, friends, because I have developed and cultivated these four Foundations of Awareness that I have won great direct knowledge. What four? Here, friends, I dwell constantly contemplating upon: The Body only as a formed group, neither as I, me, mine, nor a self... The Feelings only as passing responses, neither as I, mine, nor self... The Mind only as temporary mentalities, neither as I, nor any self... All Phenomena only as constructed mental states not as existents... while eager, clearly comprehending, & fully aware , thereby removing all desire & frustration rooted in this world! It is, friends, because I have developed & cultivated these Four Foundations of Awareness that I have become empowered with suprahuman forces: I directly understand other beings minds when having encompassed them with my own mind. I understand a mind with greed as a mind with greed; a mind without greed as a mind without greed; a mind with hate as a mind with hate; a mind without hate as a mind without hate; a mind with ignorance as a mind with ignorance; a mind without ignorance as a mind beyond ignorance; a contracted & lazy mind as a lazy and contracted mind & a distracted mind as an agitated and distracted mind; an exalted mind as exalted into jhÄ?na and an unexalted mind as unexalted; a surpassable mind as a surpassable mind & a verily unsurpassable mind as an unsurpassable mind; a concentrated mind as concentrated and an unconcentrated mind as so unconcentrated; an unreleased mind as unreleased & a released mind as all released... Source (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. [V:304] section 52: Anuruddha. Thread 14: The Encompassing mind! Details and references for further study: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/One_and_only_Way.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Four_Foundations_of_Awareness.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/DPPN/sa/saavatthi.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/DPPN/j/jetavana.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/Sati_Studies.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/DPPN/wtb/a/abhinna.htm The Mind Reading Ability (Ceto-pariya-ñÄ?na) Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Ceylon * <....> #72843 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Thu May 31, 2007 12:05 am Subject: Re: New Series: Recollection of the Buddha rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > > Robert, you wrote to me than when you started to feel impatient, you > reflected on that story of the bodhisattva and the impatience went > away to be replaced by patience. That is a skillful means and Right > Effort. That is excellent! However, if you wrote to me that you had > some free time in line at the bakery and so you started thinking about > the bodhisattva, with no corresponding feeling of calm, etc., then > that is just thinking. It wouldn't help to purify the mind and isn't > real Dhamma practice. Can you see the difference? > > ______ Dear James Yes, you gave a nice analysis, very good. Robert #72844 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu May 31, 2007 12:18 am Subject: Recollection of the Buddha- 3 buddhatrue Hi All, RECOLLECTION OF THE BUDDHA AS FULLY ENLIGHTENED: He is fully enlightened because he has discovered all things rightly and by himself. In fact all things were discovered by him rightly by himself in that he discovered of the things to be directly-known that they must be directly known, [that is, learning about the Four Truths,] of the things to be fully understood that they must be fully understood, [that is, penetration of suffering,] of the things to be abandoned that they must be abandoned, [that is, penetration of the origin of suffering,] of the things to be realized that they must be realized, [that is, penetration of the cessation of suffering,] and of the things to be developed that they must be developed, [that is, penetration of the path.] Hence it is said: `What must be directly-known is directly-known, What has to be developed has been developed, What has to be abandoned has been abandoned; And that, Brahman, is why I am enlightened'. Besides, he has discovered all things rightly by himself step by step thus: The eye is the Truth of Suffering; the prior craving that originates it by being is root-cause is the Truth of Origin; the way that is the act of understanding cessation is the Truth of the Path. And so too in the case of the ear, the nose, the tongue, the body, and the mind. And the following things should be construed in the same way: The six bases beginning with visible objects, The six groups of consciousness beginning with eye consciousness, The six kinds of contact beginning with eye contact, The six kinds of feeling beginning with the eye-contact-born, The six kinds of perception beginning with perception of visible objects, The six kinds of volition beginning with volition about visible objects, The six groups of craving beginning with applied thought about visible objects, The six kinds of sustained thought beginning with sustained thought about visible objects, The five aggregates beginning with the aggregate of matter, The ten kasinas, The ten recollections, The ten perceptions beginning with perception of the bloated, The thirty-two aspects [of the body] beginning with head hairs, The twelve bases, The eighteen elements, The nine kinds of becoming beginning with sensual becoming The four jhanas beginning with the first, The four measureless states beginning with the development of lovingkindness, The four immaterial attainments, The factors of the dependent origination in reverse order beginning with ageing-and-death and in forward order beginning with ignorance. Herein, this is the construction of a single clause [of the dependent orignination]: Ageing-and-death is the Truth of Suffering, birth is the Truth of Origin, the escape from both is the Truth of Cessation, the way that is the act of understanding cessation is the Truth of the Path. In this way he has discovered, progressively discovered, completely discovered, all states rightly and by himself step by step. Hence it was said above: `He is fully enlightened because he has discovered all things rightly and by himself'. To be continued…RECOLLECTION OF THE BUDDHA AS ENDOWED WITH CLEAR VISION AND VIRTUOUS CONDUCT Metta, James #72845 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu May 31, 2007 1:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: New Series: Recollection of the Buddha, suggestions. nilovg Dear Han (Phil, James), the Sayadaw was right. I looked at the Co. I have in Thai: the Buddha showed vipassana based on these five things and also lokuttara magga. We should not merely say or recite: old age can come upon me. It should remind us of the dukkha at this moment: whatever dhamma appears now is dukkha, it cannot last. But in order to fully understand this, the stages of insight have to be developed, little by little. We may reflect on dukkha but it is a different matter to directly penetrate the characteristic of dukkha of nama and rupa now. First we have to begin to understand: what is nama, what is rupa, when do they appear, what are their characteristics, how can these be known? I appreciate Phil's post also, indicating that he reflects on the sutta each morning. I also appreciate James question: Satipatthana according to its co is described as mundane. There has to be a mundane Path before the lokuttara Path can be reached. All the teachings point to this. See now the sutta about the reflections on five things and vipassana based on this, and then lokuttara magga can be reached. Nina. Op 31-mei-2007, om 0:53 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > Just by considering "I am not the only one who is > subject to such things; there are also others who are > subject to such things, how can one attain the Path > (maggo sa~njaayati)? I asked a Sayadaw on this point. > He said such considerations will lead to samvega > ~naana, but without prior vipassanaa ~naana one cannot > attain magga ~naana #72846 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu May 31, 2007 2:06 am Subject: RE: Consciousness at the center nilovg Hi Larry and Phil, ------- L: Here's another idea: "kammic consciousness" could mean both kamma and resultant consciousness. ------- N: How could it? It could not be vipaaka at the same time, not possible. --------- L:In this way there would be a more inclusive sense of "consciousness" and physical base (vatthu) could easily be seen as a condition for resultant consciousness and would be an inclusive sense of "rupa" along with objects of 5-door consciousness. Otherwise "base" seems to be a little extraneous. ------- N:Vatthu has more meanings, here it means object. ------- Phil: Is this akin to the teaching that mundane kusala is still keeping us in samsara? So if I have attachment to metta, for example, and it conditions good deeds, "shackled by lust for the volitional formations" applies and "roams about in a home" means roams in samsara? --------- N: It is true, well said. But there is not only attachment to kusala, but attachment to all five khandhas, and sankhaarakkhandha includes all cetasikas, except feeling and sa~n~naa. There is no end to the objects of attachment which are our home. ------- Nina. #72847 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu May 31, 2007 2:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. re Perfections N, 37 nilovg Dear Nidhi, also compassion is a cetasika, conditioned by the citta it accompanies and the other cetasikas, also conditioned by past accumulations of karuna. When it appears, it means that it has arisen, and what has arisen has to fall away. It falls away, no matter it has been understood by pa~n~naa or not. I would avoid watched, it seems to imply a self who watches. I think that watching or noting does not mean anything. An ignorant child can watch. Nina. Op 30-mei-2007, om 14:37 heeft wisdomcompassion het volgende geschreven: > however i still think that maitri, karuna etc. don't fall away, like > other dhammas. if these arise by itself these are signs of > imporvement. i think it is very important to discriminate because when > sati arises then what is to be watched and what should not be watched > (or understand as u put it), must be clear. > > ........may be it was not really necessary for me to point out, > however as per my understanding these realities (maitri, mudita, etc.) > don't fall away even if they are watched. Where as defilements > (aasavas) fall away when watched. #72848 From: "wisdomcompassion" Date: Thu May 31, 2007 3:01 am Subject: [dsg] Re: New Series: Recollection of the Buddha, suggestions. wisdomcompas... Dear Friends, dear friends, i like to share something about the way i contemplate at times. i advice all members that if they don't agree with my ideas please discard them. i m quite an ignorant person. i had access to spiritual books from an early age in my life. i read some of them but i must confess none really changed me. because i was picking ideas what religion/dhamma is. i liked the words truth, non-violence, faith, non attachement and appreciated them but these were just concepts as they never penetrated me deeply. since these were concepts as soon as i closed the book all the good things i felt while reading were gone! my behaviour wasn't like what it should have been. i was also selfish in a way that whenever i had some problem i used to take recourse of good books and dhamma . and as soon as the problem was gone, i was my own way. i never wanted to leave good things that kusala kamma of past birth bestowed me. But always wanted to get rid of things which i didn't like. sometimes i tried to practice very hard but i don't consider it of worth as it didn't change me from inside. some years later , i became serious about it. it was luck probably. i happen to listen to some verses of a saint. i used to close my eyes while listening an d started watching my own mind. this approach worked very well as this time intellect was kept aside (though i ran after intellect all my life) . now i was understanding what was being said in the audio cassette. it was about universal dhamma that is about craving, aversion, desire, attachment etc. sometimes i used to go deeper into my own mind, and really understood certain things. the same thing as are written in scriptures can be found in one's own mind. whatever i understood changed my nature at the root level.the things that i listened and i watched in my own mind come effortlessly now. but i know how much work has to be done yet (defilements are very strong), but i have found this approach to be very satisfactory. when i attended vipassana camp; meditation (going deep into mind) was not new, though observing breath(system) was a new thing for me. but it was dhamma talks that actually gave me precious gems. after coming home from the camp i listened to the talks again and again. sometimes mind would go deeper into one thing and miss the whole talk. but technology is very beneficial at times. i could rewind and start again. i m quite convinced that proper listening changes mind to a great extent. its just not listening to the words of the teacher, but actually watching one's own mind that helps. when i read tipitaka i see that during buddha's time people would get enlightenment as soon as he would finish the talk. also i found that there is great deal of repetition of words. i think this too have a reason. when mind listens to the words of teacher properly (watching its own process) the defilements are disturbed at the root (depending upon how deeper the person goes) and are eradicated as the mind is watching (sati is present). in buddha's time one could not rewind (as technology was not advanced) so there was great deal of repetition. but i like this repetition. unfortunately in present day published books such repeition has been edited to save time in reading. but i still like that repetition. after listening dhamma discourse one finds so much peace, so much calm as defilements are eradicated and mind becomes very pliant, calm and subtle. i am sharing this so that whenever anybody listens to any dhamma talk one would differentiate between listening with intellect and listening with heart (mind). i have tried the same approach with reading as well. that is also very helpful. for this reason i m not very well read about buddhist suttas, but i m happy with this way. To me its not meditation or non meditation, but actually understanding dhamma within oneself that really matters. I think only proper understanding brings change, not any system or practice. To me the whole of dhamma and spirituality is "know thyself". i hope all of the people who are on this list would be able to relate with me, as they all must have listened to dhamma with their heart, at sometime or other. Otherwise they wouldn't be here discussing about dhamma. May all people understand dhamma, may all people understand themselves. with metta nidhi *********** > Different people may have different ideas about reflection, > contemplation, meditation, but it does not matter. I am sure > everybody can bring in something useful. > Just a few suggestions. > Nina. > #72849 From: "wisdomcompassion" Date: Thu May 31, 2007 3:13 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Q. re Perfections N, 37 wisdomcompas... Dear Nina, what you call as understanding, i probably use the word watching for that. by watching i mean; mind watching its own content (dhammas). it is not same as a child's watching or the way i watch other objects using eye door, or think about other things or contemplate. To me watching and thinking/contemplating are different things. Probably watching is a figurative word, i don't know what other word should i use. Understanding is seems to be proximate word. probably "passa/ passati" are better pali words. with metta, nidhi ******* --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Nidhi, > also compassion is a cetasika, conditioned by the citta it > accompanies and the other cetasikas, also conditioned by past > accumulations of karuna. When it appears, it means that it has > arisen, and what has arisen has to fall away. It falls away, no > matter it has been understood by pa~n~naa or not. I would avoid > watched, it seems to imply a self who watches. I think that watching > or noting does not mean anything. An ignorant child can watch. > Nina. > Op 30-mei-2007, om 14:37 heeft wisdomcompassion het volgende geschreven: > > > however i still think that maitri, karuna etc. don't fall away, like > > other dhammas. if these arise by itself these are signs of > > imporvement. i think it is very important to discriminate because when > > sati arises then what is to be watched and what should not be watched > > (or understand as u put it), must be clear. > > > > ........may be it was not really necessary for me to point out, > > however as per my understanding these realities (maitri, mudita, etc.) > > don't fall away even if they are watched. Where as defilements > > (aasavas) fall away when watched. > > > > > #72850 From: "sukinder" Date: Thu May 31, 2007 10:36 pm Subject: RE: My Meditation Re: Correction Re: A Bit More Re: [dsg] jhaana and superpow... sukinderpal Hi Howard, Thanks so much for your response. I read it last night, but was feeling too exhausted from the activities of the day to reply. You said: Near the end of your post you say "... I do quite often feel irritated by what you write on the list...sorry." That's okay. :-) We are what we are. This just shows that "turn-about is fair play"! ;-)) Again, Sukin, thank you for your temperate and friendly post, which is oped below without further comment from me. Maybe I'll learn to remember the good things about others instead of anything that may have caused aversion. This way even though I write to be critical, at least I will do it more metta? :-) Metta, Sukinder #72851 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Thu May 31, 2007 3:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Curiousity Corner 1 egberdina Hi Andrew, On 30/05/07, Andrew wrote: > In replying, I am not being disrespectful of your "over and out". I just want to disagree with something you wrote :-) > Dhamma and science are not synonyms. Why mix them? I disagree that Dhamma and science are not synonyms. They are synonyms. Neither Dhamma or science are to be seen as a body of static, though differing facts, Dhamma and science are descriptions of the mechanisms by way things work. Dhamma, as well as science, is dependent origination in motion. And whether DO is approached as Dhamma or science, claims as to the way things work which are not verifiable, or claims that do not stand up to the light of day, do not qualify as either science or Dhamma, and are recognised as such by the intrepid wayfarer. Herman #72852 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu May 31, 2007 4:32 am Subject: Re: Sammaadi.t.thi study corner scottduncan2 Dear All, 13. "Saying, 'Good, friend,' the bhikkhus delighted and rejoiced in the venerable Saariputta's words. Then they asked him a further question: 'But, friend, might there be another way in which a noble disciple is one of right view...and has arrived at this true Dhamma?' - 'There might be, friends.' 14. "When, friends, a noble disciple understands suffering, the origin of suffering, the cessation of suffering, and the way leading to the cessation of suffering, in that way he is one of right view...and has arrived at this true Dhamma. 15. "And what is suffering, what is the origin of suffering, what is the cessation of suffering, what is the way leading to the cessation of suffering? Birth is suffering; ageing is suffering; sickness is suffering; death is suffering; sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair are suffering; not to obtain what one wants is suffering; in short, the five aggregates affected by clinging are suffering. This is called suffering. 16. "And what is the origin of suffering? It is craving, which brings renewal of being, is accomplished by delight and lust, and delights in this and that; that is, craving for sensual pleasures, craving for being, and craving for non-being. This is called the origin of suffering. 17. "And what is the cessation of suffering? It is the remainderless fading away and ceasing, the giving up, relinquishing, letting go, and rejecting, of that same craving. This is called the cessation of suffering. 18. "And what is the way leading to the cessation of suffering? It is just this Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view...right concentration. This is called the way leading to the cessation of suffering. 19. "When a noble disciple has thus understood suffering, the origin of suffering, the cessation of suffering...he here and now makes an end of suffering. In that way too a noble disciple is one of right view...and has arrived at the true Dhamma." Saadhaavusoti kho te bhikkhuu aayasmato saariputtassa bhaasita.m abhinanditvaa anumoditvaa aayasmanta.m saariputta.m uttari.m pa~nha.m aapucchu.m : " siyaa panaavuso a~n~nopi pariyaayo yathaa ariyasaavako sammaadi.t.thi hoti ujugataassa di.t.thi, dhamme aveccappasaadena samannaagato 'aagato ima.m saddhammanti ? Siyaa aavuso. Yato kho aavuso ariyasaavako dukkha~nca pajaanaati, dukkhasamudaya~nca pajaanaati, dukkhanirodha~nca pajaanaati, dukkhanirodhagaamini.m pa.tipada~nca pajaanaati, ettaavataapi kho aavuso ariyasaavako sammaadi.t.thi hoti. Ujugataassa di.t.thi. Dhamme aveccappasaadena samannaagato aagato ima.m saddhammanti. Katama panaavuso dukkha.m katamo dukkhasamudayo ? Katamo dukkhanirodho ? Katamaa dukkhanirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa'ti. Jaatipi dukkhaa, jaraapi dukkhaa, vyaadhipi dukkho, mara.nampi dukkha.m, sokaparidevadukkhadomanassupaayaasaapi dukkhaa, yampiccha.m na labhati tampi dukkha.m, sa"nkhittena pa~ncupaadaanakkhandhaa dukkhaa. Ida.m vuccataavuso dukkha.m. Katamo caavuso dukkhasamudayo ? Yaaya.m ta.nhaa ponobhavikaa nandiraagasahagataa tatra tatraabhinandinii - seyyathiida.m: kaamata.nhaa bhavata.nhaa vibhavata.nhaa - aya.m vuccataavuso dukkhasamudayo. Katamo caavuso dukkhanirodho ? Yo tassaayeva ta.nhaaya asesaviraaganirodho caago pa.tinissaggo mutti anaalayo - aya.m vuccataavuso dukkhanirodho. Katamaa caavuso dukkhanirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa ? Ayameva ariyo a.t.tha"ngi komaggo dukkhanirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa - seyyathiida.m: sammaadi.t.thi, sammaasa"nkappo, sammaavaacaa, sammaakammanto, sammaaaajiivo, sammaavaayaamo, sammaasati, sammaasamà dhi. 4. Yato kho aavuso ariyasaavako eva.m dukkha.m pajaanaati, eva.m dukkhasamudaya.m pajaanaati, eva.m dukkhanirodha.m pajaanaati, eva.m dukkhanirodhagaamini.m pa.tipada.m pajaanaati, so sabbaso raagaanusaya.m pahaaya pa.tighaanusaya.m pa.tivinodetvaa asmiiti di.t.thimaanaanusaya.m samuuhanitvaa avijja.m pahaaya vijja.m uppaadetvaa di.t.theva dhamme dukkhassanta"nkaro hoti. Ettaavataapi kho aavuso ariyasaavako sammaadi.t.thi hoti. Ujugataassa di.t.thi. Dhamme aveccappasaadena samannaagato aagato ima.m saddhammanti. Sincerely, Scott. #72853 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu May 31, 2007 5:29 am Subject: Conditions, Ch 2, no 4 nilovg Dear friends, When we study and consider the Dhamma we may not hear the sound of traffic, but when the sound is very loud we may hear it. Then that object is intrusive. It is the same when we suffer from violent pains. Then there is an object which is intrusive, we cannot think of anything else but the pain. Pleasant objects and unpleasant objects are experienced by kusala cittas and akusala cittas. Kusala citta as well as akusala citta can be object-condition for kusala citta or for akusala citta. Kusala citta can be the object of kusala citta. We read in the "Paììhåna" (Faultless Triplet, Kusala-ttika, VII, Investigation Chapter, pañha-våra, Object, § 404): Faultless state (kusala dhamma) is related to faultless state by object-condition. After having offered the offering, having undertaken the precept, having fulfilled the duty of observance, (one) reviews it. Having emerged from jhåna, (one) reviews it. (One) reviews (such acts) formerly well done. Having emerged from jhåna, (one) reviews the jhåna. Learners [1] review change-of-lineage [2]. (They) review purification [3]. Learners, having emerged from the Path, review the Path [4]. Learners or common worldlings practise insight into impermanence, suffering and impersonality of the faultless (state).... Kusala can also be the object of akusala citta. We read in § 405: Faultless state (kusala dhamma) is related to faulty state (akusala dhamma) by object-condition. After having offered the offering, having undertaken the precept, having fulfilled the duty of observance, (one) enjoys and delights in it. Taking it as object, arises lust, arise wrong views, arises doubt, arises restlessness, arises grief. Having emerged from jhåna, (one) enjoys and delights in the jhåna. Taking it (jhåna) as object, arises lust, arise wrong views, arises doubt, arises restlessness. When jhåna has disappeared, (one) regrets it and thereby arises grief.... We should consider the object-condition in daily life. Is it not true that we cling to our kusala, that we have conceit on account of it, that we find ourselves better than other people? We may take the performing of kusala for self. Or we may think of it with dosa. We may think of a generous deed with regret because we find that the gift we bought was too expensive. We have accumulated akusala and it will always find an object, even kusala. ----------- 1. The "learner", sekha, is the ariyan who is not arahat. 2. Gotrabhú, the mahå-kusala citta accompanied by paññå preceding the magga-citta of the sotåpanna. 3 Vodåna, the mahå-kusala citta accompanied by paññå preceding the magga-citta of the three higher stages of enlightenment (Vis. XXII, 23, footnote 7). 4. After the lokuttara cittas which arose at the attainment of enlightenment have fallen away, they review these cittas. ******** Nina. #72854 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Thu May 31, 2007 5:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddha's relic egberdina Dear Shin, On 30/05/07, shiau_in_lin wrote: > > > Dear Dhamma Friends, > Hello. I am an old student with Ajhan Sujin. And the posting of this > message might displease many of you because it is not about the Sutta > or the Abhidhamma. BUT it is about the teaching of the Buddha and his > relic that was not treated with respect in India. What is the proper way to treat the teeth of the Tathagata? And how do you think it is respectful to claim to have the teeth of one who claimed they are not to be found? Herman #72855 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu May 31, 2007 5:42 am Subject: Perfections N, no 40 nilovg Dear friends, Khun Sujin also said that right understanding should be developed in order to see that all realities are the same in the sense that they cannot stay, that they arise and fall away. In that way there will be less clinging to them. I was inclined to think that one can only learn about realities in situations when there are Dhamma discussions, and I was clinging to such situations. During this journey I came to understand more that, if we do not cling to particular situations and we can see them as only nãma and rupa which are conditioned, we can learn from any kind of situation. We can learn that there are nãma and rupa while we are in different places such as the Thai Embassy, while we are walking in the park or having lunch with friends and eating delicious food. If we see each moment as a completely new situation which is conditioned we can be reminded to be aware of the present moment, without planning or selecting objects, without thinking of the future. Näma and rupa arise because of their own conditions and we never know what kind of reality will arise next, we cannot plan anything. If we really understand this we will not be distracted from our goal, that is, the development of under-standing of this moment. Out of compassion the Bodhisatta developed all the perfections for innumerable lives. He aspired to help other beings to attain enlightenment as well. The commentary to the Cariyapitaka 1) states that each perfection is accompanied by compassion and skilful means. The same commentary 2) explains that "skilful means" is the wisdom which makes the noble qualities of the Bodhisatta into requisites of enlightenment. When he developed these virtues he always had in mind the attainment of Buddhahood for the sake of other beings. The "great aspiration" to help other beings to attain the goal is the condition for all the perfections without exception, the same commentary states. We read about the "Great Compassion" of the Buddha in the "Path of Discrimination" (Patisambhidåmagga, Part I, Ch 71). First all the dangers and disadvantages of the cycle of birth and death which are seen by the Buddhas are summed up, such as: "Worldly life moves on. Worldly life is on the wrong road... The world has no lastingness and is 1ed on. The world has no shelter and no protector. The world has nothing of its own, it has to leave all and pass on. The world is incomplete, insatiate, and the slave of craving. Worldly life is without shelter. Worldly life is without shield. Worldly life is without refuge... Worldly life is no refuge... The world is agitated and disturbed... Worldly life is wounded by darts, pierced by many darts; there is none other than myself to draw out the darts..." We then read about numerous other disadvantages of worldly life. Only a Buddha can by his omniscience fully see the extent of the danger of being in the cycle of birth and death. This arouses his compassion so that he is determined to help other beings to attain freedom from the cycle. ----------- 1. Ven. Bodhi, p. 262. 2. Ven. Bodhi, p. 271. *********** Nina. #72856 From: "Phil" Date: Thu May 31, 2007 8:16 am Subject: Re: New Series: Recollection of the Buddha philofillet Hi James (and Robert) I join Robert in complimenting you for the way you laid this out. I'm particularly interested in the dynamic between 1 and 2. Is this something you came up with yourself? If not, could you point me towards a text or talk transcript where I could get deeper into it. Thanks. Metta, Phil p.s I'd also like to thank Robert for participating so much these days - always a boon when you are around. I really appreciated the bakery anecdote. > Allow me to explain using "Recollection of the Buddha" as an example, > since I am currently posting about that. There are three ways in > which one could approach "Recollection of the Buddha": > 1. Thinking about the Buddha > 2. Thinking about the Buddha as skillful means > 3. "Recollection of the Buddha" as meditation practice > #72857 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu May 31, 2007 11:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sammaadi.t.thi study corner nilovg Dear Scott, We should not let this text pass without recalling what Kh Sujin said: we have to relate all this to the present moment, not just reading these texts. Every time really, when reading in the suttas about the four noble truths, and this is quite often, we have to relate them to just now, to our life now. I am repeating what I remember, as heard from Kh Sujin, and what I wrote before about the three rounds of understanding the four noble Truths: sacca ~naa.na (firm understanding what they are), kicca ~naa.na (developing direct understanding of them) and kata-~naa.na (direct realization of them at enlightenment). The first round is already difficult enough for us beginners. We read: in short the five khandhas of grasping are dukkha. That is, nama and rupa. They fall away and thus they are dukkha. But first we have to know what nama and rupa are. They have unalterable characteristics, no matter how we name them. They appear one at a time, through one of the six doors. I repeat what Kh Sujin said about the second truth: from morning until night we are seeking things for ourselves, also at this moment. Do we not want comfort, freedom from pain? We are hungry and are seeking food. All the time we want things for ourselves. This seeking and trying to get things keeps us in the cycle. When we realise this more in our life we can also acquire some idea of what freedom from such craving could be, the third noble Truth. We have to know the right Path, the fourth noble Truth, and that is the development of understanding of nama and rupa that appear. We need truthfulness, sincerity, otherwise we delude ourselves. When lobha motivates the development, if we are attached to having more awareness and are trying with the idea of self, even a little, we are deviaing from the Path. I think we cannot be reminded enough that the goal is detachment, detachment from the idea of self. We listen to have more understanding and it is understanding, not us, that is able to eradicate clinging. We have to be firmly convinced of what the right Path and that is awareness and understanding of what appears now, no matter how unpleasant or how akusala it is. Nina. Op 31-mei-2007, om 13:32 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: > 14. "When, friends, a noble disciple understands suffering, the origin > of suffering, the cessation of suffering, and the way leading to the > cessation of suffering, in that way he is one of right view...and has > arrived at this true Dhamma. #72858 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu May 31, 2007 11:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddha's relic and curiosity. nilovg Hallo Herman, There is a lot in it you say here. I recently heard Kh Sujin say: do you have teeth? You cannot experience them now, you can only think of them. Teeth is a conventional idea, not object of awareness. Hardness can appear when touching them. As to the relic, this is in another context. The relics are the only thing left of his body and we pay respect in the right way if we remember his teaching while doing so and apply it, now. We should consider all this when in Saranath, when the relics are placed on our head. It is an opportunity to be reminded and pay respect, that is all, but we should not be attached. I had to laugh when you said that Kh Sujin would compare your new job with a funeral.'Just like now'. Just nama and rupa. Now my curiosity, it is your corner after all:-)), is your job related to computers? Good luck to you. You never speak anymore about music, or playing it with your children. How is it going? Nina. Op 31-mei-2007, om 14:43 heeft Herman Hofman het volgende geschreven: > And how do you think it is respectful to claim to have the teeth of > one who claimed they are not to be found? #72859 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu May 31, 2007 7:43 am Subject: A Question About Evolutionary Mechanism upasaka_howard Hi, all - This doesn't pertain to the Dhamma, per se, but somewhat to religion in general. I've been thinking about matters supposedly acquired through the natural selection mechanism for the evolving of useful (i.e., survival-related) traits. What turned my thoughts to this was the following: Recently I stumbled due to floppy slippers I was wearing, crashed into a table, and cut my forearm - not badly, but causing a bleeding scrape of about 2 inches in length. Naturally, a scab formed, and over the last couple days, the scab, already dried out, fell off. I got to thinking about this mechanism: White cells rushed to the area tofight infection, thrombin went to the area causing the blood to clot and forming a scab that served as a kind of bandage further protecting the wound from infection. Then, beneath the protective scab a healing process occurred, with new skin cells forming and, finally, with the completion of that, the scab drying up and falling off, leaving fresh skin where there had been a wound. Now, the theory of natural selection tells us that useful traits which randomly arise persist precisely because they are useful. Animals and humans who have such a trait live longer and/or are better able to reproduce. That is the theory. My problem with this is the following: An extraordinarily complex process such as the scabbing, healing, drying-out-of-the-scab, and sloughing-off-of-the-scab process is most unlikely to have suddenly appeared at random with the birth of some particular animal. Instead, such a complex process would have had to develop aspect by aspect over many, many, many generations, functional system by functional system. However, until the entire process was in existence, no parts of it would have been especially survival-oriented, and natural selection would not apply until the entire process existed. In fact, without the entire process existing, one wonders how a mammal would survive a wound at all! Now, I'm not saying what would need to be the case in addition to the natural selection mechanism, but it does seem to me that natural selection is inadequate to explain the simply amazing biological characteristics of plants and animals that we know of. It is not surprising to me that folks would look to "intelligent design" types of explanation. I don't know what to look to, but I do find an explanation along the lines of natural selection as inadequate. Could any folks here knowledgeable about evolutionary theory explain to me why I should *not* see it as inadequate? With metta, Howard #72860 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu May 31, 2007 3:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Curiousity Corner 1 kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@... wrote: > > > In a message dated 5/30/2007 9:39:53 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, > upasaka@... writes: > > Howard: > Well, I sure don't buy this "infallibility of 'the ancients'" either! > I think that one who relinquishes his own judgement, accepting the judgement > of others without his/her own oversight, is foolish to say the least. Saddha > is > confidence based on one's own testing, not on blind faith in the authority > of > person, scripture, or tradition. > > > > Hi Herman and Howard > > I think Herman is using these passages for a more mature Buddhist audience > to make a point about abrogating their insight in lieu of believing in books. ------- Hi TG (Howard and Herman), I agree that would be a good point to make. Insight is knowledge of the here and now - not of what is in the books. But are you and Herman going about it in the right way? You are clinging to the idea that insight is about conventional realities and that insight practice (satipatthana) is about things to do. Rain, devas and cold fronts are conventional realities, and rain making is a 'thing to do.' So, for you, it could be important to know what rain is and how is made. I believe everything is to be understood purely in terms of the five khandhas. The Buddha could have described a flying purple elephant, and it wouldn't matter to me. I would still believe him to be talking about the five khandhas (the kinds of realities that are arising now, in the present moment). --------------------------- TG: > The books could potentially lead you to believe in stupid things...unless you clear up the understandings and see things as they are "for yourself." Eventually we need to take off the training wheels...or at least loosen them a little. ;-) -------------------------- The books' literal version of rain making could make things difficult for you if you wanted a career in weather forecasting. It might make things difficult if you wanted to take part in any modern, intelligent conversation. (Although I am not so sure about that. Most of our world leaders believe in unseen gods!) So I would advise you to stop believing that the Buddha taught conventional realities. I suspect you are talking about paramattha dhammas when you say "believe in stupid things." But what risk is involved in that kind of belief? If the Buddha and the books were wrong about conditioned namas and rupas, what difference would that make? How would our conventional lives be any worse? Ken H #72861 From: TGrand458@... Date: Thu May 31, 2007 11:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Question About Evolutionary Mechanism TGrand458@... In a message dated 5/31/2007 12:45:10 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, upasaka@... writes: Could any folks here knowledgeable about evolutionary theory explain to me why I should *not* see it as inadequate? With metta, Howard Hi Howard I don't know Jack about that. But, and you must know this too, one condition at a time (so to speak) led to the conditions that we now think are complex. Its been a process of contacting and interaction and combining of conditions until the systems (living things) evolved as they have come to be. If such systems did not meet with the conditions to preserve their life type, such a type did not survive. What is merely is because the appropriate conditions have occurred to have them be what they are. (That's a great sentence!) LOL What would be interesting is if craving and desire played a role in the development of the immune system, etc. I.E., the will to live helped propagate the physical systems that accommodate that will...to the extent possible given conditions. For me though, its all about "the combining of conditions." TG #72862 From: LBIDD@... Date: Thu May 31, 2007 4:58 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] RE: Consciousness at the center lbidd2 Hi Nina, N: "Vatthu has more meanings, here it means object." L: I didn't really understand this: "Further, the other four aggregates, as objects (or bases: aramma.navasena) are said to be "stations for the kammically generative consciousness" (abhisa"nkhaaravi~n~naa.na.t.thitiyo)..." I thought this meant the cetasikas have the same physical base (vatthu) as the consciousness, which would be both kamma and kamma vipaka consciousness. This led me to think "base" must imply some kind of condition other than object condition. Not so? Larry #72863 From: "m_nease" Date: Thu May 31, 2007 5:25 pm Subject: Re: Sammaadi.t.thi study corner m_nease Hi Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: Please excuse the delayed response--I've been away for a bit-- > I think I've quoted this before in part, and sorry if I'm repeating > myself but, in Visuddhimagga I,6-7: Anytime! > "'He who is possessed of constant virtue, > Who has understood and is concentrated, > Who is strenuous and diligent as well, > Will cross the flood so difficult to cross' > (S.i.53) > > "...Develops consciousness and understanding: develops both > concentration and insight. For it is concentration that is described > here under the heading of 'consciousness', and insight under that of > 'understanding'." > > Scott: And in Note 4, quoting Paramattha Ma~njuusaa, the > Visuddhimagga A.t.thakathaa: > > "'Develops' applies to both 'consciousness' and 'understanding'. But > are they mundane or supramundane? They are supramundane, because the > sublime goal is described; for one developing them is said to > disentangle the tangle of craving by cutting it off at the path > moment, and that is not mundane. But the mundane are included here > too because they immediately precede, since supramundane concentration > and insight are impossible without mundane concentration and insight > to precede them; for without the access and absorption concentration > in one whose vehicle is serenity, or without the momentary > concentration in one whose vehicle is insight, and without the > gateways to liberation, the supramundane can never in either case be > reached." Sure-- > Scott: I don't know if this gets closer to the consideration of > 'mundane insight', because I think this likely refers to the place of > 'mundane' moments of consciousness preceding the path, and points out > that the conditionality of things is such that one thing leads to > another. What do you think? What I'm inclined to think (as has so often been said here before) is that mundane insight refers to satipa.t.thaana (or rather vipassanaa, which would, I think, 'precede the path'). What interests me more at the moment is the connection between the first and second 'rounds' (thanks again, Nina) of sacca~naa.na (firm understanding what they [4NT] are) and kicca~naa.na (developing direct understanding of them). I understand these to correspond to pariyatti and pa.tipatti. The former, as I understand it, is conceptual and the latter real. Assuming this to be correct, does, according to the texts, the latter reality depend (as a condition) on the former concept? As I think I've said, I believe we've been over all this before so thanks for your patience. > I'll keep looking... Thanks again and also for the good series. mike #72864 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu May 31, 2007 5:25 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana as necessity to enlightenment... buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi James, > thanks for your concern. I have to laugh also, because you put me to > work! James: Hopefully, if I slow down in posting to you then that will slow you down. :-) > > I finished reading again the long article by Ven. Bodhi. He is very > honest in his study, I think. Did you read it? It would be > interesting to see your comments. Did you keep it, otherwise I give > it again. A subject to discuss in an unemotive way :-)). No, why so > many emotions. We have to scrutinize our cittas, me included: is > there attachment conditioning such emotions while writing posts? > Moreover, I find it helpful to see also those who have different > opinions as my friends. But I know that you feel likewise. > Establishing friendship is really helpful. James: Yes, I read the article, twice actually- like you. I will post some comments below. I guess you could say that B. Bodhi was "unemotive" in the article. It is just a scholarly article analyzing the role of jhana to the lay practitioner. What would there be for him to be emotional about? I would guess that you are digressing, or is there something specific you wanted to say? Is this related to Rob M.'s thread on "Angry Monks"? If so, I will post some about that later. I didn't happen to agree with Rob M.'s conclusions. However, if you are trying to give me some kind of hint that I use Wrong Speech with posting to this group, then just say so outright. You wouldn't be alone! ;-)) No matter, after I finish with the Recollection of the Buddha thread I will take an extended break (for two months), while I travel to America. If you find that there is much less dosa in the group while I am gone, just let me know and I can stay away permanently. > B.B. made a deepgoing study of the suttas, and seemed pretty sure > that there were laypeople who attained the first two stages of > enlightenment without having cultivated jhanas. > His approach is very honest. He concludes: < Although in the Nikaayas > the tie between the two attainments -the jhaanas and non-returnership > - is clear enough, it remains an open question whether the connection > is absolutely binding. James: The article is a very good one but it doesn't address specifically the issue I was addressing: Can there exist an arahant who has never achieved a jhana? B. Bodhi writes in his article, as an "Afterthought": "The Commentaries speak even of a sukkhavipassaka arahant, an arahant who has gained the goal entirely through "dry insight," without any attainment of form-sphere jhaana at all. Although such a type is not explicitly recognized in the Nikaayas, the question may be raised whether the Commentaries, in asserting the possibility of arahantship without attainment of jhaana in the mundane portion of the path, have deviated from the Canon or brought to light a viable possibility implict in the older texts. The famous Satipa.t.thaana Sutta declares, in its conclusion, that all those who earnestly dedicate themselves to uninterrupted practice of the four establishments of mindfulness are bound to reap one of two fruits: either arahantship in this very life or, if any residue of clinging remains, the stage of non-returning. While several exercises within the Satipa.t.thaana Sutta are certainly capable of inducing the jhaanas, the system as a whole seems oriented towards direct insight rather than towards the jhaanas.[40] Thus this opens the question whether the Satipa.t.thaana Sutta might not be propounding a way of practice that leads all the way to non-returning, even to arahantship, without requiring attainment of the jhaanas. This, however, is another question, one that lies beyond the scope of this paper." Darn!! He doesn't answer the question!! He just states that it is an interesting question which lies beyond the scope of this paper. Hopefully, he will write another paper which addresses that question. I would be very interested in reading that kind of paper! > After this quote I will not answer all your questions (I should post > less), James: I don't believe I asked any questions. I have made my conclusion that there can't exist an arahant who has never achieved a jhana. However, I am glad that you are going to slow down in your posting. You should spend more time on your health and Dhamma practice rather than arguing with the likes of me! ;-)) but this article is an interesting one inviting to further study. > Nina. Metta, James #72865 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu May 31, 2007 6:05 pm Subject: Re: New Series: Recollection of the Buddha buddhatrue Hi Phil (and Robert), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > > Hi James (and Robert) > > I join Robert in complimenting you for the way you laid this out. James: Thank you. :-) > I'm particularly interested in the dynamic between 1 and 2. Is this > something you came up with yourself? If not, could you point me > towards a text or talk transcript where I could get deeper into it. > Thanks. James: Well, I wouldn't really say I "came up with this myself", but if you mean did I read it described in this way in a specific text, I don't consciously recall any. I was just considering the entirety of the Noble Eightfold Path, and my studies of the Dhamma, and wrote an explanation which related to my discussion with Robert. You seem to be interested in the relationship between one and two, just thinking about the dhamma and thinking about the dhamma as skillful means. Again, as I wrote to Robert, it is related to Right Effort. I just did a quick search in the Vism. (I haven't read the entire Vism. yet), and I found this entry, which relates to what I wrote to Robert (I did not read this prior to posting to Robert): HOW MANY KINDS OF UNDERSTANDING ARE THERE? 1. Firstly, as having the characteristic of penetrating the individual essences of states, it is of one kind. 2. As mundane and supramundane it is of two kinds, 3. Likewise as subject to cankers and free from cankers, and so on, 4. As the defining of mentality and of materialty 5. As accompanied by joy or by equanimity, 6. As the planes of seeing and of development. 7. It is of three kinds as consisting in what is reasoned, consisting in what is learnt (heard), and consisting in development, 8. Likewise as having a limited, exalted, or measureless, object, 9. As skill in improvement, detriment, and means, 10. As interpreting the internal, and so on. 11. It is of four kinds as knowledge of the four Truths, 12. And as the four Discriminations. James: I think that what I posted relates to number 9 of the above. Here is further explanation of number 9: 9. In the third triad, it is increase that is called improvement. That is twofold as the elimination of harm and the arousing of good. Skill in improvement is skill in these, according as it is said: "Herein, what is skill in improvement? When a man brings these things to mind both unarisen unprofitable things do not arise and arisen unprofitable things are abandoned in him; or when he brings these things to mind both unarisen profitable things arise and arisen profitable things advance to growth, increase development, and perfection in him. Whatever here is understanding, act of understanding, non-delusion, investigation of states, right view, is called skill in improvement." Non-increase is what is called detriment. That also is two-fold as the diminution of good and the arousing of harm. Skill in detriment is skill in these, according as it is said: `Herein, what is skill in detriment? When a man brings these things to mind both unarisen profitable things do not arise…., and so on. But in either of these cases any skill in means to cause the production of such and such things, which skill occurs at that moment and is aroused on that occasion is what is called `skill in means', according as it is said: `And all understanding of means thereto is skill in `means''. So it is of three kinds as skill in improvement, in detriment, and in means. Phil, I hope that this helps to answer your question a bit. However, if there is something more specific you are looking for, let me know and I will try to find more information. Metta, James #72866 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu May 31, 2007 6:15 pm Subject: Re: Insight is "Vision," Not Merely Experience. kenhowardau Hi Colette, I'll do a bit of snipping and we can get down to the nitty gritty: ----------- C: > My point in studying other views, doctrines, etc, is to get a broader picture <. . .> Greek mythology <. . .> phallus, lingum, worshipped <. . .> view from the urethra <. . .> We can go in sooooooooooooo many different directions here now that I've established the basis of thought that a percentage of society has and honors as TRADITION. I don't have the time, unfortunately, ------------- That was the point I wanted to make. There is not enough time to look into various traditions. In fact, there is no time at all, apart from the present moment. ----------------------- C: > but I'm sure the peanut gallery is saying their praises that I chose not to go into those de-tails. ;-) ----------------------- :-) No one can go far into those details without making me and rest of the peanut gallery squirm in our seats. Science, psychology the like will inevitably lead to 'body parts' 'bodily functions' and various 'perversions' that can accompany them. Yuck, let's change the subject! :-) --------------------------------- <. . .> KH: > > The 'totality' > that Buddhism addresses is actually the namas and rupas of the > present moment. colette: > I hope your seat belt is fastened securely! ----------------------------------- OK, I'll fasten my seat belt if you insist, but I am not easily thrown about these days. ----------------------- C: > What exactly is a "present moment"? A moment is understood, but when you qualify a specific moment as being present you automatically manifest the duality of not-present. ----------------------- Can you imagine a world in which there is only the present moment? You might have to fasten your own seat belt because that is what the Buddha taught! If you can imagine such a world, look around. What do you see? Don't tell me you see people, plants and animals standing still - frozen in time. What kind of a world would that be? I am talking about a fully functional, absolutely real world. In my opinion, the honest answer is, "I don't know what I would see." Except for the few details I have already learnt from the Abhidhamma, I can't possibly have any idea! -------------- <. . .> KH: > > But clinging to the past needs to be understood as > > a fetter, doesn't it? colette: > do you mean to tell me that you forgot the past the second you wrote that clinging to the past is a fetter, since I clearly take what teachings I can get hold of in the little time I'm allowed on a computer and I apply those same teachings DIRECTLY to the HERE AND NOW. ---------------- I agree, all your past study (of Confucianism, Buddhism etc) has led you to be writing what you are writing now. That is logical. However, there is still a self (someone who is typing) involved at that level of understanding. Therefore, we need to define the present moment as a trillionth of a second. In that space of time there is no room for any typing. Therefore, ideas of people and computers have no place here. In a trillionth of a second only namas and rupas can be conditioned to arise, perform their functions and fall away. Ken H #72867 From: "Phil" Date: Thu May 31, 2007 6:54 pm Subject: Re: Sammaadi.t.thi study corner philofillet Hi Mike I see I missed this post of yours.Sorry about that. > It seems to me that each tends to editorialize somewhat--TB more in > his selection of texts as well as their translations; BB more in his > comments (I think his translations are more rigorous). I agree that > TB is passionate in his views (if I may call them that) and often very > moving. I must say I do have misgivings about 'passion' in this regard. I think TB is wonderful for beginners. (I define "beginner" as someone who is prey to turmoil caused by gross defilements.) In his talks, especially, he encourages a method of meditation that makes the meditation object pleasant and interesting, to give the beginner a safe refuge from turmoil. I think this is good, and for one who has established a kind of provisional refuge there can be conditions for seeing into the shortcomings of this approach. We need that provisional refuge first, no matter how quirky some aspects of it are. (I guess this "making the breath interesting aspect" came from his Thai Forest teachers.) > > > Personally, I think the sutta passage in question is > > clear enough in making it clear that supramundane *right* view is that > > of the ariyan and is clearly compared to the right view of worldlings > > who do not gain liberation from samsara through their right view, but > > at least do not fall into gross wrong view that leads them into evil > > deeds. > > An interesting way of putting it. Of course (I think) it is the > arising of supramundane right view that creates the distinction > between the worldling and the ariyan. I wonder though, in the > worldling's right view, is there a mundane view that is merely > intellectual and another that is transformative (by this I mean > insight into one of the four bases of insight, but short of the path)? > This is not yet clear to me from the texts (or, of course, from > experience). Not yet clear to me either. > > It is this latter right view that interests me, personally. The > > wrong view of *not* having the right view of the ariyan? Not a concern. > > Agreed-- We agree there. I always remember you commenting on wannabe sotapannas or something like that. > > > I don't think that this supramundane right view can be attained by > > thinking about it. > > Certainly not--and also not by NOT thinking about it. There are, > though (as I understand it), thoughts that are "conducive to...growth > in intuitive wisdom...[and] nibbaana": > > "The bodhisatta realized that these lead neither to self-hurt, nor to > the hurt of others, nor to the hurt of both, but that they are for > "growth in intuitive wisdom", that they are "not associated with > distress", "conducive to nibbana ". We read about kusala vitakka: > > "...Monks, if a monk ponder and reflect much on the thought of > renunciation he ejects the thought of sense-pleasures: if he makes > much of the thought of renunciation, his mind inclines to the thought > of renunciation. Monks, if a monk ponder and reflect much on the > thought of non-malevolence he ejects the thought of malevolence... > Monks, if a monk ponder and reflect much on the thought of > non-harming, he ejects the thought of harming; if he makes much of the > thought of non-harming his mind inclines to the thought of non- harming..." > > Quoted from Majjhima Nikaaya I. 2. 9. Dvedhaavitakkasutta.m in Nina's > 'Cetasikas'. Thanks Mike. Metta, Phil #72868 From: "Phil" Date: Thu May 31, 2007 7:27 pm Subject: Re: New Series: Recollection of the Buddha philofillet Hi James Yes, this helps a lot. I will have to pay more attention to Vism. I have been neglecting it. > James: I think that what I posted relates to number 9 of the above. > Here is further explanation of number 9: > > 9. In the third triad, it is increase that is called improvement. > That is twofold as the elimination of harm and the arousing of good. > Skill in improvement is skill in these, according as it is said: > "Herein, what is skill in improvement? When a man brings these things > to mind both unarisen unprofitable things do not arise and arisen > unprofitable things are abandoned in him; or when he brings these > things to mind both unarisen profitable things arise and arisen > profitable things advance to growth, increase development, and > perfection in him. Whatever here is understanding, act of > understanding, non-delusion, investigation of states, right view, is > called skill in improvement." I think there would more likely to be "jsut thinking" for me rather than this "skillful means" thinking, if the latter involves "investigation of states", which is deep. But no matter. The point is that reflection of the Buddha's teaching in daily life conditions a temporary retreat from harmful states of mind, and all these temporary retreats conditions a habitual tendency to make such retreats. That is what interests me most these days. Again, the "don't go there" and "went there? get out!" thang. Metta, Phil #72869 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Thu May 31, 2007 10:38 pm Subject: Corpse Meditation = Anti-Porno! bhikkhu5 Friends: Meditation on Disgusting Objects Dispels Lust! The Blessed Buddha once said: Bhikkhus & friends: If seeing a corpse thrown into the grave, which is one, two, or three days dead, swollen, bloated, bluish-black, full of filth; one should draw this conclusion regarding one's own body: This body too has this nature, has this destiny, & cannot escape it! If one should see a corpse thrown to the burial ground, gnawed and partly eaten by crows, hawks, vultures, dogs or jackals, & creeping with all kinds of worms & maggots; one should draw this conclusion regarding own body: This body too has this nature, will also become exactly like that, & cannot ever escape it! If one should see a chain of bones, flesh hanging from it, splattered with blood, held together by the sinews... or bones disconnected & scattered in all directions, here a hand-bone, there a foot-bone; here the pelvis, the spine, the skull.... or bones, now bleached, pale white & looking like sea-shells... or black rotting bones finally crumbling into dust; One should think: This body too has this nature, has this destiny, & cannot escape it! Source: MN 10, DN 22 More on the Corpse Meditations (Asubha-BhÄ?vanÄ?): http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/The_32_Parts.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/The_9_Corpse_Meditations.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/Meditation_On_the_Body_Kayagata-Sati.htm Clever Disgust cools all obsessive greed and addictive lust: For Inspiration have a collection of Corpse Pictures Viewable only by Adults (>18y) signed in with Yahoo ID! been deposited here: http://asia.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/clever_disgust/album?.dir=/f672 Evaporating Greed & Lust by Disgust! Corpse Meditation = Anti-Porno! Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Ceylon * <.....> #72870 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jun 1, 2007 1:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections N, no 36 sarahprocter... Dear Nina, Jon, James & all, --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear friends, > > The Buddha preached to the monks about mettå, exhorting them to show > each other kindness through body, speech and mind, both in public and > in private. We read in the 'Gradual Sayings" (Book of the Sixes, Ch > II, par. 1, On being considerate): > > Monks, there are six ways of being considerate. What six? .... S: Good to consider this sutta further which you quoted. The Saaraa.niiya Sutta. I checked 'saaraa.niiyya in the dict: 'fit to be remembered'. So then we see the 6 ways of being considerate: ..... > Herein, monks, a monk's part is amity in deed towards his fellows in > the godly life, openly and in private; verily, this is a way of being > considerate. > > Again, his part is amity in word. . .amity in thought towards his > fellows in the godly life, openly and in private; this also is a way > of being considerate. > > Then, those proper gains, gotten according to rule- be they but bowl- > scraps, he loves to share them impartially, to have them in common > with his virtuous fellows in the godly life; this also is a way of > being considerate. > > And those virtues that are unbroken, without flaw, spotless, without > blemish, bringing freedom, praised by wise men, incor-ruptible, > leading to concentration- he dwells one in virtue with them among his > fellows in the godly life, openly and in private; this also is a way > of being considerate. .... S: Amity is metta. So metta is stressed in the first 3 ways. In the 5th way, sila is stressed. I was reminded of some earlier discussion in the dana corner when we mentioned sila as a kindness, as consideration or a gift to others. Who has developed 'unbroken virue'? The sotapanna through the development of understanding. So here we see the 'social aspect' which friends often ask about. 'Leading to concentration...' Without 'spotless' sila, right concentration cannot become 'spotless'. [Diversion: This reminds me - I was also looking at the start of a section Jon referred to in his discussion with James on 'concentration' in Vism 111, 28. The text reads: "But mundane concentration should be developed by one who has taken his stand on virtue that is quite purified in the way already stated. He should sever any of the ten impediments that he may have. He should then approach the good friend, the giver of a meditation subject.....etc" Pali: "Yo panaaya.m lokiyo, so vuttanayena siilaani visodhetvaa suparisuddhe siile patit.t.thitena, yvaassa dasasu palibodhesu palibodho atthi, ta.m upacchinditvaa kamma.t.thaanadaayaka.m kalyaa.namitta.m upasa~nkamitvaa...." ..... S: Again we have the sila which is quite purified (su-parisuddhe). (In ch1, 131, there is a description of the different kinds of paarisuddha siila to consider here...???) This next part of this text is intersting. In the English translation (Nanamoli), we have 'he should sever...', 'he should then....'. The Pali (upacchinditva...., upasa~nkamitva.....,) looks more like 'having purified....', 'having severed...', 'having approached....'??? Without very firm sila and without having already severed the ten impediments discussed, how can access or absorption concentration possibly be attained?] .... > And that ariyan view, saving, leading him who acts accordantly to the > utter destruction of Ill- he dwells one in view with that among his > fellows in the godly life, openly and in private; this is also a way > of being considerate. > > Verily, monks, these are the six ways of being considerate. > > These six ways of being considerate, and above all satipatthãna, lead > to harmony and unity between the monks. .... S: Yes, especially the development of satipatthan, the development of the right view which leads to the 'ariyan view'. This is the greatest kind of consideration, leading to harmony not just amongst monks, but amongst lay people too! So again we see that development of the path leads to kinder social interactions and living at 'ease' in the world around us, no matter what our lifestyles. Comments most welcome... Metta, Sarah ======== #72871 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jun 1, 2007 1:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana as necessity to enlightenment... nilovg Hi James, thank you for your post. My conclusion is: there were arahats without jhana attainment. But I also include the ancient commentaries in my conclusion, whereas you do not. Cannot be helped. I brought up this article as a following up after the Susima sutta about which there were different opinions. I did not follow the thread angry monk, I cannot follow all threads. What silly things you say about less dosa in the group without you :-)) I appreciate your posts also when I do not agree. I think that you lately have written very good posts. I consider you a serious student of Dhamma and appreciate that you study the Visuddhimagga. Have a good trip to America, where you will see your parents. Nina. Op 1-jun-2007, om 2:25 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > James: I don't believe I asked any questions. I have made my > conclusion that there can't exist an arahant who has never achieved a > jhana. #72872 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jun 1, 2007 2:20 am Subject: Clinging to kusala.....? sarahprocter... Dear James, Nina, Phil & all, Jon came across an audio discussion with K.Sujin which maybe from the same set Nina and you referred to before and which aroused a lot of controversy here. I didn't come across exactly the same passage, but this part makes the meaning clear, I think. [ Jon & I were in a car with K.Sujin in Bangkok (1991)...] ***** S:......Very few people really consider what is good and what is bad... KS: To me, I think just considering what is right and what is wrong is not enough because it's not the real understanding of realities, the essence of the true nature of right and wrong. What are they? Because we just assume this is right and this is wrong, but what is the essence of right and wrong, what is the reality of it - the right and wrong? .***** [30 mins or so later.... Discussion about questions and concerns a friend had raised with us with regard to ethical considerations in his job as a newspaper photographer and invading people's privacy.] KS: What has happened has happened, so just help instead of trying to find out how wrong, how much right and wrong should one do. S: Sometimes it's not so much a matter of judging and finding out, so much as discussing kusala and akusala, so maybe we (just)use this as an example and discuss whether this is kusala or akusala. KS: You see you think of kusala and akusala in terms of the story of kusala and akusala. When it's kusala should we like it? When its akusala should we hate it? See! Because people seem to think it's right to hate akusala and right to like kusala but I don't think so, because kusala is kusala and akusala is akusala. Why do we have to hate akusala and why do we have to like kusala? S. Because we see the value in kusala and the danger in akusala...? KS: If we understand more that kusala is just a reality (or element), should it be the object of our hatred? It's useless to hate our akusala. It's only a reality and it's conditioned and it has to arise. Akusala doesn't know it's akusala itself because its nature is non-self, no being at all. It's just an element which is akusala. So should we hate akusala in an absolute sense? S: 'Just an element' makes it sound like it doesn't matter at all, but we learn to see the danger of akusala.... KS: Yeh, yeh. That's right, but it doesn't mean we should hate it. When one understands akusala as an element - should it be the object for our hatred? In order to understand reality as kusala or akusala, no hatred, no like, no clinging to either because when people dislike akusala, they tend to like kusala, they would like to have more but they don't know they are clinging to kusala instead of seeing By having such understanding, it doesn't harm anyone at all because it's kusala which understands perfectly. But when one likes the wholesome and dislikes the unwholesome, one can understand one's mind at the moment of liking or disliking..... ***** S: I think this is a really important point to appreciate. Otherwise we just go on accumulating more and more clinging to 'Me', the 'Good Me'! Metta, Sarah ======== #72873 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jun 1, 2007 3:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Virtue sarahprocter... Dear Htoo, --- Htoo Naing wrote: > The discussions here are interesting. Just to add some points > for more discussions. .... S: I meant to also say how glad I was to see you writing here directly. You mentioned to me (off-list) that soon you'll be able to participate again which is great news. You'll notice we have many 'corners' these days. Nina has recently started 'Conditions' which we'll be very happy if you can participate in. She and Larry continue with the Vism corner....Han & Phil with Sila and Dana corners, Scott with 'Samma Ditthi' corner....What else? James now quotes from the Vism too and even chips in with Pali details:-)). Actually, he's running helpful corners on Reflections on Death and the Buddha. Oh, and Connie's been running a great series from the Theriigatha with commentary.... Lots waiting for you....!! .... > There are 5 facts as bala or indriya ( 5 faculties). > > 2 in one side and 2 in the other and sati or mindfulness involves in > both side. > > A. 1. viiriya B. 2. samaadhi > A. 1. saddhaa B. 2. pa~n~naa > > A and B have to be in balance. > > Sati does not need balance and so sati have to be in both > sides. > > The more viiriya the less samaadhi, the more saddhaa the less pannaa. > > Am I right? .... S: It didn't make much sense to me. The indriyas are the same cetasikas (saddha, viriya, sati, samadhi and panna) as the balas. When they are 'powerful' or unshakable, they are referrred to as balas. When panna develops and clearly understands dhammas as they are, the factors involved are balanced without having to think about sides or scales as I see it. Anyway, i'll keep it brief as you may not be reading. Happy to discuss further. Metta, Sarah ====== #72874 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jun 1, 2007 4:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana as necessity to enlightenment... sarahprocter... Hi James & Nina, It's been a good discussion and just yesterday, Jon & I were commenting on what good form you've been in with your discussions and series, James. Reminds me of when we had the Samyutta corner which you led. --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > What silly things you say about less dosa in the group without > you :-)) I appreciate your posts also when I do not agree. I think > that you lately have written very good posts. I consider you a > serious student of Dhamma and appreciate that you study the > Visuddhimagga. > Have a good trip to America, where you will see your parents. .... S: I agree with all this and also wish you a good trip. I'm sure your father will be very excited about your coming. I know you probably won't have yr Vism with you (though I remember Erik reading his copy on long flights - maybe Rob K too if I recall), but try to send us the odd e-card - wise reflections during a home visit. I expect you'll be visiting your temple too...anyway, keep us posted! We'll look forward to it:-)). I'll certainly look forward to the resumption of your quotes and series on return too. Metta, Sarah ========== #72875 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Jun 1, 2007 5:40 am Subject: Re: Sammaadi.t.thi study corner scottduncan2 Dear Mike, Thanks for your reply; I'm a bit rushed so this might be a badly organised attempt: M: "...What I'm inclined to think (as has so often been said here before) is that mundane insight refers to satipa.t.thaana (or rather vipassanaa, which would, I think, 'precede the path'). What interests me more at the moment is the connection between the first and second 'rounds'... sacca~naa.na (firm understanding what they [4NT] are) and kicca~naa.na (developing direct understanding of them). I understand these to correspond to pariyatti and pa.tipatti. The former, as I understand it, is conceptual and the latter real. Assuming this to be correct, does, according to the texts, the latter reality depend (as a condition) on the former concept?" Scott: I'm wondering if the definitions of these terms are reversed. ~Naa.namoli gives 'kicca' as 'function. PTS PED gives: "Kicca (nt)...1. (adj.) that which ought to be done, that which is to be performed; nt. something to do..." Doesn't it seem that 'kicca-~naa.na' ought to be 'firm understanding of [function]'? Which would give 'sacca-~naa.na' as related to 'developing direct understanding [of truth] ("Sacca (adj.) [cp. Sk. satya] real, true...sacca-~naa.na knowledge of the truth...", PTS PED)? At any rate, one leads to the other. I'd say knowledge of 'function' would precede knowledge of 'truth'. PTS PED gives: "~Naa.na (nt.) [from jaanaati. See also jaanana)... knowledge, intelligence, insight, conviction, recognition,...character of ~naa.na: ~naa.na as faculty of understanding is included in pa~n~naa (cp. wisdom=perfected knowledge). The latter signifies the spiritual wisdom which embraces the fundamental truths of morality & conviction (such as anicca.m anattaa dukkha.m...); whereas ~naa.na. is relative to common experience...Perception (sa~n~naa) is necessary to the forming of ~naa.na, it precedes it (D i.185); as sure knowledge ~naa.na is preferable to saddhÄ?..." Scott: Here pa~n~naa is the operative dhamma. I notice, in the portion of text most recently given from the Sammaadi.t.thi Sutta: 18. "And what is the way leading to the cessation of suffering? It is just this Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view...right concentration. This is called the way leading to the cessation of suffering. Katamaa caavuso dukkhanirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa ? Ayameva ariyo a.t.tha"ngi komaggo dukkhanirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa - seyyathiida.m: sammaadi.t.thi, sammaasa"nkappo, sammaavaacaa, sammaakammanto, sammaaaajiivo, sammaavaayaamo, sammaasati, sammaasamaadhi Scott: 'The way leading to...' is 'pa.tipada. From the PTS PED, "Pa.ti (indecl.)...As preposition (with acc. and usually postponed) towards, near by, at...". Pa.tipada and pa.tipatti seem to be closely related. In fact, PTS PED gives pa.tipada as being "a quasi synonym of magga" Does this suggest that 'the way leading to' is like the path but not yet the Path? In Visuddhimagga, ~Naa.namoli discusses how pa.tipatti has a rare form in Pa.li which relates to 'theory'(XVII, note 8, p.830). Regarding 'ignorance', Visuddhimagga XVII,52 states (note 8) that it is "twofold as 'no theory' and 'wrong theory'. "No theory is unknowing about suffering etc., 'wrong theory is perverted perception of what is foul, etc., as beautiful, etc., or else 'no theory' is unassociated with [false] view and wrong theory is associated with it', (Pm.751). Is the difference between 'mundane' and 'supramundane' one of object? Sincerely, Scott. #72876 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jun 1, 2007 1:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana as necessity to enlightenment... upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and James) - In a message dated 6/1/07 4:39:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi James, > thank you for your post. My conclusion is: there were arahats without > jhana attainment. But I also include the ancient commentaries in my > conclusion, whereas you do not. Cannot be helped. ======================== To become an arahant, Nina, is not right concentration requisite? And what of the following definitive material? "And what is right concentration? There is the case where a monk â€" quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities â€" enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation â€" internal assurance. With the fading of rapture he remains in equanimity, mindful, & fully alert, and physically sensitive of pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana, and of him the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain â€" as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress â€" he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is called right concentration."â€" SN 45.8 ========================= With metta, Howard #72877 From: "Phil" Date: Fri Jun 1, 2007 7:26 am Subject: Re: Clinging to kusala.....? philofillet Hi Sarah and all > See! Because people seem to think it's right to hate > akusala and right to like kusala but I don't think so, because kusala is > kusala and akusala is akusala. Why do we have to hate akusala and why do > we have to like kusala? I guess James disliked this because he though (correct me if I'm wrong James) that we should hate our akusala. I don't hate akusala - hatred is in itself akusala. But I will make a diligent effort to rid my mindstream of it because I know how harmful it is to myself and others. That's all. "Clinging to Kusala?" Fine. Thank Buddha I realized that it was utterly silly for a person such as myself to be worried about such a thing as "clinging to kusala! ?h:) Metta, Phil #72878 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jun 1, 2007 7:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana as necessity to enlightenment... nilovg Hi Howard, Right concentration of the eightfold Path that has to accompany right understanding of the eightfold Path, I agree that this is necessary. There are many such texts about jhanas as you quote, it does not say: all people have to attain jhana before enlightenment. It should not be seen in such a categorical way. May I refer to B.B.'s serious and thorough article? Here is a passage dealing with laypeople: < None of the texts, however, that deal with the two candidates for stream-entry - the faith-follower and the Dhamma-follower - show them as being proficient in the jhaanas. Though some suttas include the jhaanas in the analysis of the faculty of concentration, this may be done simply out of compliance with the formulaic style of definition employed by the Nikaayas and need not be seen as having categorical implications. The Commentaries treat these definitions as referring to the supramundane jhaana arisen within the supramundane path. Moreover, the analysis of the concentration faculty mentions another type of concentration, which is gained "by making release the object," and this may be interpreted broadly enough as including degrees of concentration short of the jhaanas. 2. All noble disciples acquire the right concentration of the Noble Eightfold Path, which is defined as the four jhaanas. This need not be understood to mean that stream-enterers and once-returners already possess jhaana before they reach stream-entry. The formula for right concentration may imply only that they must eventually attain the jhaanas in the course of developing the path to its culmination in arahantship. If we go along with the Commentaries in recognizing the Abhidhammic distinction between the preparatory path and the supramundane path, then we can maintain that the jhaanas included in right concentration as a path factor pertain to the supramundane path and are thus of supramundane stature. This still leaves open the question whether aspirants for stream-entry must develop the mundane jhaanas in the preliminary phase of their practice.> (end quote). N: For the attainment of jhana the impediments (palibodha) have to be eliminated, and one must lead a life "wholly secluded from sense pleasures". One should scrutinize oneself as to this. Nina. Op 1-jun-2007, om 14:49 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > To become an arahant, Nina, is not right concentration requisite? And > what of the following definitive material? #72879 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jun 1, 2007 7:51 am Subject: Conditions, Ch 2, no 5. nilovg Dear friends, We read in the same section of the "Paììhåna" (§ 407) that akusala can be the object of akusala citta: Faulty state is related to faulty state by object condition. (One) enjoys and delights in lust. Taking it as object, arises lust, arise wrong views, arises doubt, arises restlessness, arises grief.... Don't we like lobha and enjoy having it? We want to have as many moments of enjoyment as possible. Then more lobha arises. If we do not realize lobha as a conditioned reality we take it for "my lobha". Lobha can also be object of dosa. We may feel guilty about lobha, we may have aversion towards it and we may regret it. Any kind of defilement can be object of akusala citta. Akusala can also be object of kusala citta, for example, when we consider defilements with right understanding and realize them as conditioned realities which are not self. We read in the same section of the "Paììhåna" (§ 408): Faulty state is related to faultless state by object condition. Learners review the eradicated defilements. They review the uneradicated defilements. They know the defilements addicted to before. Learners or common worldlings practise insight into the impermanence, suffering and impersonality of the faulty (state).... The arahat can with kiriyacitta, which is indeterminate (avyåkata) dhamma, review kusala citta and akusala citta which formerly arose. Then kusala dhamma and akusala dhamma condition indeterminate dhamma by way of object. Kusala dhamma, akusala dhamma and indeterminate dhamma can be object condition for different types of citta. ******* Nina. #72880 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jun 1, 2007 7:56 am Subject: Perfections N, no 41 nilovg Dear friends, Further on we read: "Upon the Enlightened Ones, the Blessed Ones, who see thus, 'I have crossed over and the world has not crossed over; I am liberated and the world is not liberated; I am controlled and the world is uncontrolled; I am at peace and the world is not at peace; I am comforted and the world is comfortless; I am extinguished and the world is unextinguished; I, having crossed over, can bring across; I, being liberated, can liberate; I, being controlled, can teach control; I, being at peace, can pacify; I, being comforted, can comfort; I, being extinguished, can teach ex- tinguishment,' there descends the Great Compassion. This is the Perfect Ones knowledge of the attainment of the Great Compassion." The compassion of a Buddha cannot be fathomed by ordinary people, it is unequalled. Out of compassion the Buddha taught people the development of right understanding in daily life. The ultimate goal cannot be reached in one life, but even when right understanding just begins to develop we come to know things we did not know before. We discover many defilements and also learn to know the more subtle ones. Instead of being distressed about them there can be gratefulness to the Buddha who taught us the wisdom which can eradicate them. When we come to realize our defilements we may remember at once that this is due to the Buddha's teachings and then there can be recollection of the qualities of the Buddha (Buddhanussati). Also a moment of gratefulness to the Buddha is a conditioned moment and it can be object of mindfulness so that it can be known as not self. We read in the "Discourse on the Simile of the Cloth"(Middle Length Sayings I, no. 7) that the Buddha speaks about the defilements of the mind which are: greed, covetousness, malevolence, anger, malice, hypocrisy, spite, envy, stinginess, deceit, treachery, obstinacy, impetuosity, arrogance, pride, conceit and indolence. When the monk knows them as they are he can get rid of them. The text states: "When, monks, the monk thinks that greed and covetousness is a defilement of the mind.. .that indolence is a defilement of the mind, and having known it thus, the defilement of the mind that is indolence is got rid of, he becomes possessed of unwa-vering confidence in the Awakened One and thinks: "Thus indeed is he the Lord, perfected, wholly self-awakened, endowed with knowledge and right conduct, well-farer, knower of the worlds, incomparable charioteer of men to be tamed, teacher of devas and mankind, the Awakened One, the Lord." We read that some people attained arahatship by making the Recollection of the Buddha their object of meditation, but they could not attain it without developing satipatthãna in daily life. ******** Nina. #72881 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jun 1, 2007 4:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana as necessity to enlightenment... upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 6/1/07 10:41:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > > Hi Howard, > Right concentration of the eightfold Path that has to accompany right > understanding of the eightfold Path, I agree that this is necessary. > There are many such texts about jhanas as you quote, it does not say: > all people have to attain jhana before enlightenment. It should not > be seen in such a categorical way. ----------------------------------------- Howard: Right concentration is certainly requisite for becoming an arahant. (It was becoming an arahant that was being discussed, not becoming a lesser ariyan.) The sutta I quoted, SN 45.8, which defines right concentration to be the attaining of the 1st four jhanas doesn't appear at all ambiguous. What would be a "non-categorical" understanding of it? I don't understand your position, Nina. Right concentration is taught by the Buddha to be a requisite for full awakening, and the sutta I quoted is clear in what right concentration is. Why should contrary commentarial views be given precedence over the clear words of the Buddha? Incidently, the Buddha also taught the following: "I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana... the second jhana ... the third... the fourth... the dimension of the infinitude of space... the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness. I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception."â€" AN 9.36 It might be noted that in regard to this latter sutta, the arupa jhanas are generally considered to be refinements of the 4th jhana. Ven Gunaratana, for example, writes "Once the fourth jhana is reached the jhana factors remain constant, and in higher ascent to the immaterial attainments there is no further elimination of jhana factors. For this reason the formless jhanas, when classified from the perspective of their factorial constitution as is done in the Abhidhamma, are considered modes of the fourth jhana. They are all two-factored jhanas, constituted by one-pointedness and equanimous feeling." So, the content of this sutta is basically the same as that of SN 45.8. ------------------------------------------------------ > > May I refer to B.B.'s serious and thorough article? Here is a > passage dealing with laypeople: texts, however, that deal with the two candidates for stream-entry â€" > the faith-follower and the Dhamma-follower â€" show them as being > proficient in the jhaanas. Though some suttas include the jhaanas in > the analysis of the faculty of concentration, this may be done > simply out of compliance with the formulaic style of definition > employed by the Nikaayas and need not be seen as having categorical > implications. > ------------------------------------ Howard: This assertion doesn't prove a thing. ------------------------------------ The Commentaries treat these definitions as referring> > to the supramundane jhaana arisen within the supramundane path. > Moreover, the analysis of the concentration faculty mentions another > type of concentration, which is gained "by making release the > object," and this may be interpreted broadly enough as including > degrees of concentration short of the jhaanas. > > 2. All noble disciples acquire the right concentration of the Noble > Eightfold Path, which is defined as the four jhaanas. This need not > be understood to mean that stream-enterers and once-returners > already possess jhaana before they reach stream-entry. The formula > for right concentration may imply only that they must eventually > attain the jhaanas in the course of developing the path to its > culmination in arahantship. > --------------------------------------- Howard: Okay. It was arahantship we were talking about, Nina. --------------------------------------- If we go along with the Commentaries in> > recognizing the Abhidhammic distinction between the preparatory path > and the supramundane path, then we can maintain that the jhaanas > included in right concentration as a path factor pertain to the > supramundane path and are thus of supramundane stature. > ----------------------------------------- Howard: The description in SN 45.8 is that of quite standard jhana. ------------------------------------------ This still> > leaves open the question whether aspirants for stream-entry must > develop the mundane jhaanas in the preliminary phase of their > practice.> > (end quote). N: For the attainment of jhana the impediments > (palibodha) have to be eliminated, and one must lead a life "wholly > secluded from sense pleasures". One should scrutinize oneself as to > this. > Nina. > ============================ Nina, I don't understand the contortions to which you and others go in order to avoid the plain teaching of the Buddha that jhana is requisite for arahantship. I just do not get it. With metta, Howard #72882 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jun 1, 2007 11:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] RE: Consciousness at the center nilovg Hi Larry, Almost losing the thread. I think that it is shown that all the khandhas can be objects of clinging. abhisa"nkhaaravi~n~naa.na.t.thitiyo: abhisa"nkhaaravi~n~naa.na: the citta that generates kamma. .t.thitiyo: place or foundation. Here vatthu would mean the object which is like a foundation. Nina. Op 1-jun-2007, om 1:58 heeft LBIDD@... het volgende geschreven: > "Further, the other four aggregates, > as objects (or bases: aramma.navasena) are said to be "stations for > the > kammically generative consciousness" > (abhisa"nkhaaravi~n~naa.na.t.thitiyo)..." > > I thought this meant the cetasikas have the same physical base > (vatthu) > as the consciousness, which would be both kamma and kamma vipaka > consciousness. This led me to think "base" must imply some kind of > condition other than object condition. Not so? #72883 From: "colette" Date: Fri Jun 1, 2007 1:41 pm Subject: Re: Insight is "Vision," Not Merely Experience. ksheri3 Hi Ken, Lets look at this stuff that you wrote as a drug. I ingested that drug when I read it and comprehended it, but I have yet to cognize it, no? let my body now assimilate this, metabolse the drug, in Zen buddhism we can say "become one with this drug", no? To begin with I'll say EXACTLY but we can't allow that concept to djustract us from the point we're making. ----- > That was the point I wanted to make. There is not enough time to look > into various traditions. colette: I once thought those same thoughts that this is such an enormous task, the traditions, practices, interpretations, etc, is/are just far too immeasurable to comprehend let a lone to master. Here I can expose my actual being, my bros and sisters in monestaries that practice this I'm pround to say that I am among you and that you are among me, myself. <....> --------------- In fact, there is no time at all, apart from > the present moment. > colette: WRONG WRONG WRONG! You and I are working for the benefit of the lives that follow us, just as the people, sentient beings, that pursued the same subjects and material before we did and that we are studying at this very moment. -------------------- > OK, I'll fasten my seat belt if you insist, but I am not easily > thrown about these days. > colette: I agree, you took me for a ride from what little I've read so far I look forward to continuing the ride but I'm sure you know that I've already gotten rid of the emotional adgrenylin from the initial starting point so when I continue it'll be rather sedated. -------------------- > Can you imagine a world in which there is only the present moment? colette: I read this sentence before I left and thought about it. In the process of thinking about it I was befuddled since I had to remove all PAST and all FUTURE rupas, namas, etc. (there cannot be a future if there is no past, etc) ------------------ > You might have to fasten your own seat belt because that is what the > Buddha taught! colette Maybe, maybe not, I've only studied this for about 3 years. Any way, it's only your interpretation and as I've said on a Kaballah site recently, people tend to hear the wrong things since they are soooooo programmed to money motivation, etc. <....> -------------------------------- > > If you can imagine such a world, look around. What do you see? colette: that's what I meant by saying that EVERYTHING CHANGES by imagining a world without a past/future. Since this is the first time I've experienced this technique then I cannot have much of a statement. -------------------------------- > In my opinion, the honest answer is, "I don't know what I would see." > Except for the few details I have already learnt from the Abhidhamma, > I can't possibly have any idea! colette: I've gotta bad feeling about that concept but I've gotta reserve my tongue for the time being. I can't pull the rabit out of the hat yet. > -------------- **************** the insert key was on instead of pushing it, like turtles do. ???????????????inging to the past needs to be understood as > > > a fetter, doesn't it? > > colette: > do you mean to tell me that you forgot the past the second > you wrote that clinging to the past is a fetter, since I clearly take > what teachings I can get hold of in the little time I'm allowed on a > computer and I apply those same teachings DIRECTLY to the HERE AND > NOW. > ---------------- > > I agree, all your past study (of Confucianism, Buddhism etc) has > led you to be writing what you are writing now. That is logical. > However, there is still a self (someone who is typing) colette: then lets get this straight, you are making the blatant substantiation that THE BODY and THE SELF are the exact same thing! That my body is a slave to my self. With this as the case THEN where <...>do I fit in since it's gonna be hard to control my body and self before and after worrying about I. So, I'm typing, I'm also cognizing the past since I'm writing about what has been. Wow, didn't see that torpedo at all did ya? I was an airdale on NAS North Island and every morning could look off the flight line at Point Loma where all the Bubble-heads are stationed. Okay lets help ya out here: Ohhhhhhhh, do ya want to get into some heavy <....> from The Society of the Inner Light? When you are dreaming you have to concsiously look at your hands and you've gotta get up the next morning with a full description of the hands you saw. I admit that I'm getting into astral projections and higher material So the self is different from the teachings. I agree, the self interprets and puts into action the thoughts and teachings. By themselves the thoughts and teachings are inert. How is it that you want to control the way the teachings are interpreted, cognized, and manifested? It sounds like your name is Nina and you dictate about Vipissana, insight, a Washington Times publication I spoke with during the early 80s when Arnuade de Borchgrave was editor and chief. The managing editor of the Washington Times, at that time, reminded me exactly of Jack Olesker, managing editor for Larry Flynt Publications, circa 1981 gotta go, sorry I almost finished with the entire post. Time to go swim in a bottle and listen to my roommates scream the delusions that Soc. Sec. is sending me money in their name: "That's my money" etc. ha ha ha. But it's a great detonator, catalyst, etc. toodles, colette <....> #72884 From: Sarah and Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Jun 1, 2007 2:23 pm Subject: The real heart of Buddhism is wisdom!!! dsgmods f/w message from Ramesh ======================== Namo tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammâ Sambuddhassa! As per u told to resend the msg indicating copyright..here i am sending the message with the copyright Taken from The Tree Of Enlightment1 By Dr Peter Della Santina Anyone can read in a book about the meaning of the Four Noble Truths, interdependent origination, and so forth, but this does not mean he or she has attained wisdom. The Buddha himself said that it was through failing to understand the Four Noble Truths and interdependent origination that we have all gone on in this cycle of birth and death for so long. Obviously, when he said this, he meant something deeper than simple failure to be acquainted intellectually with these items of doctrine. The term "understanding" must thus be taken in the sense of right understanding, that is to say, direct and immediate understanding. It can be likened to a simple act of perception, like seeing a patch of blue color. Perhaps this is why the language of seeing is so often used to describe the attainment of wisdom. We speak of wisdom in terms of "seeing the truth" or "seeing things as they really are" because the attainment of wisdom is not an intellectual or academic exercise: it is understanding, or "seeing," these truths directly. When this kind of direct understanding of the nature of reality is gained, it is equivalent to the attainment of enlightenment. This opens the door to freedom from suffering and to nirvana. In Buddhism, wisdom is the key to the realization of the goal of the religion. In some religions, we find that faith is paramount; in other traditions, meditation is supreme. But inBuddhism, faith is preliminary and meditation is instrumental.The real heart of Buddhism is wisdom. What we mean when we say this is simply that the attainment of wisdom is the transformation of these doctrinal items from mere objects of intellectual knowledge into real, personal experience. In other words, we want to change our knowledge of the Four Noble Truths and the like from mere book learning into actual, living truth. This goal is accomplished first through the cultivation of good conduct, and then specially through the cultivation of mental development!!! With Metta Ramesh Patil Mumbai,India On 5/30/07, Sarah and Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Dear Ramesh, > > We're glad you are contributing to DSG. However, parts of your message below (and an earlier one as well) are copied from another text without any idication of this. > > When quoting from other sources, please make it very clear that you are doing so and give the details of the source. We ask all members in the Guidelines to respect copyright. > > Pls re-send your message indicating what your quotes are taken from to avoid confusion. > > Jon & Sarah #72885 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Jun 1, 2007 3:25 pm Subject: Re: Clinging to kusala.....? buddhatrue Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > > Hi Sarah and all > > > See! Because people seem to think it's right to hate > > akusala and right to like kusala but I don't think so, because > kusala is > > kusala and akusala is akusala. Why do we have to hate akusala and > why do > > we have to like kusala? > > > I guess James disliked this because he though (correct me if I'm > wrong James) that we should hate our akusala. I don't hate akusala - > hatred is in itself akusala. But I will make a diligent effort to > rid my mindstream of it because I know how harmful it is to myself > and others. That's all. "Clinging to Kusala?" Fine. Thank Buddha I > realized that it was utterly silly for a person such as myself to be > worried about such a thing as "clinging to kusala! ?h:) > When I said that we should hate our akusala I didn't mean it as the extreme form of dosa- like literally hating. People us that term "to hate something" rather loosely: "I hate to wait in line" "I hate rainy days" "I hate to eat eggplant", etc. I meant hate as in mild aversion, not strong aversion. I am not sure why Sarah is trudging this subject up again- it is really exhausting to argue something which is so basic and obvious to Buddhism. I mean, I can understand having disagreements over the fine details of jhana, but having disagreements over the necessity of liking good and disliking bad! I just don't get it. Phil, I am glad that you gave up your silly notion that "clinging to kusala" is harmful; I am really glad of that. However, you might also want to give up your notion that you shouldn't dislike akusala. If you give up that notion as well, you should find it much easier to practice Right Effort (i.e. thinking about Dhamma as a skillful means): Disliking Akusala: Just as a trader With a small escort And great wealth would avoid A perilous route, Or just as one desiring to live Avoids poison, Even so should one shun evil. Dhammapada 123 Liking Kusala: Should a person do good, let him do it again and again. Let him find pleasure therein, For blissful is the accumulation of good. Dhammapada 118 Metta, James #72886 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Jun 1, 2007 3:30 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana as necessity to enlightenment... buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: and one must lead a life "wholly > secluded from sense pleasures". Where is this quote from? Metta, James #72887 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Fri Jun 1, 2007 3:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: New Series: Recollection of the Buddha egberdina Hi RobK, On 30/05/07, rjkjp1 wrote: > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" > wrote: > > > > Today I had to wait at the bakery. I started getting irriated and > thought "why don't they open another till". Then I remembered how the > Bodisatta, in one life, was a baby. He was ordered executed by his > father, and in the time between the executioner throwing him in the air > and being impaled on the spear he thought "now is not the time to have > thoughts of illwill to my father or the executioner, nor to have > thoughts of attachment to my mother (who was crying)" and so he went to > a higher world. This reminded me of another story. A man is being nailed to a cross, in order to induce a slow and agonising death. The people involved in this act are mocking the man as they torture him. The man says: Father, forgive them, for they don't know what they are doing. Herman #72888 From: "Phil" Date: Fri Jun 1, 2007 4:03 pm Subject: Re: Clinging to kusala.....? philofillet Hi James >I am really glad of that. > However, you might also want to give up your notion that you shouldn't > dislike akusala. If you give up that notion as well, you should find > it much easier to practice Right Effort (i.e. thinking about Dhamma as > a skillful means): Maybe it was the word "hate", which sounds intense. (I always encourage my students to find other ways than using "hate" in my conversation classes.) "Dislike" akusala sounds better. But I tend to think more in terms of refusing to welcome, refusing to harbour, refusing to entertain. Evil thoughts and intentions are like that dangerous friend who shows up when you are concentrating and tries to coax you out to the bars. Gently refuse, send him away, again and agian. Sometimes it cannot be so gentle. But if there is hatred involved, not so good, I think. Anyways, the most important thing is that his invitations are not to be welcomed, not to be tolerated, agin and again and again, becuase he will come calling hundreds or thousands of times a day. Gradually he will learn that you are not to be had and will stop callng so often? Perhaps. Yes, surely he will stop calling so often. But he will be lurking, ready to leap when I've let my guard down, that's for sure. And he will get me at times. I accept that. The real liberation comes from that deeper penetrative wisdom. I am not there yet, and don't have conditions or a suitable lifestyle to develop jhanas, so I am very happy to be engaged with that friend at the shallow send-him-away-again-and-again stage. Not hating him though. Metta, Phil #72889 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Fri Jun 1, 2007 4:12 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sammaadi.t.thi study corner egberdina Hi Scott, On 29/05/07, Scott Duncan wrote: > > > H: "As I have said elsewhere before, the notion of disembodied > consciousness would contradict the Suttas. Free-floating panna, is an > analytical thought in the mind of a functioning human body." > > From MN121 > 'And there is only this modicum of disturbance: that connected with > the six sensory spheres, dependent on this very body with life as its > condition.'" > > Scott: Here, the phrase is pulled from a discussion on the 'signless > concentration of the mind' (animitta cetosamaadhi), after the aruupa > jhaanas are discussed. I don't know what you think its about, but the > commentary (~Naa.namoli/Bodhi) says: What I thought it was about was that when one has perfected their jhanas, and when one "comes back to earth" from there (which happens to all practioners who do not die while in jhana), what remains is "this modicum of disturbance: that connected with the six sensory spheres, dependent on this very body with life as its condition." Of course, now seen as it is ie empty of what is not there. Which means empty of self, empty of anything worth clinging to, or empty of anything that merits aversion. > > The sutta also states, just prior to the portion given above: > > "...This signless concentration of mind is conditioned and > volitionally produced. But whatever is conditioned and volitionally > produced is impermanent, subject to cessation..." > > Note 1143 > > "MA calls this the 'counter-insight' (pa.tivipassanaa), i.e., the > application of the principles of insight to the act of consciousness > that exercises the function of insight. On the basis of this he > attains arahantship." Yes, and this arahat is "the six sensory spheres, dependent on this very body with life as its condition." who rightly does not see what is not there. > H: "Anything you will ever experience is dependent on your living > body. In the absence of a living body there is no possibility of > panna. Conceiving of 'particular dhammas' is one of many > possibilities of this living body. That in no way means that > 'particular dhammas' exist individually." > > Scott: You seem to misunderstand the idea of variegated citta. > Pa~n~na is not 'disembodied', it arises with citta conascently. It > cannot arise alone. I don't find that materialistic arguments hold > much sway for me, I'm afraid. I began by saying that idealist arguments (disembodied consciousness) contradict the suttas. > What about beings in realms where there > is mentality but no materiality? I suppose these don't exist? No need to concern ourselves with "where we are not", don't you reckon? If you are not aware of this fathom-long body, with it's 32 or however many different bits and pieces, there is plenty of advice in the suttas to ground your awareness in it. > More > on which we constantly disagree. Have we no common ground? Ground is a good word in this context. It connotes a solid foundation. The denial of the body is not a common ground I wish to share with you :-) "Or his mindfulness is established with the thought: "The body exists," to the extent necessary just for knowledge and mindfulness, and he lives detached, and clings to nothing in the world." (Satipatthana Sutta). Herman #72890 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Fri Jun 1, 2007 4:28 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddha's relic and curiosity. egberdina Hi Nina, On 01/06/07, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > I had to laugh when you said that Kh Sujin would compare your new job > with a funeral.'Just like now'. Just nama and rupa. > Now my curiosity, it is your corner after all:-)), is your job > related to computers? Good luck to you. You never speak anymore about > music, or playing it with your children. How is it going? :-) Yes, I have taken on a position as IT manager for a regional government department, and I start on Monday. No doubt it will be a bit of a shock to my system, after five years of being my own boss. Hopefully, the many good lessons from dsg and elsewhere will have done their work. My children have left home, one is a computer nerd like his Dad, and the other one is a very talented musician (not like his Dad). I have not played a music instrument for years now, but I like to give myself a little treat every now and then, and play some classical CD's. Do you still play at all? Herman #72891 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Jun 1, 2007 4:36 pm Subject: Vism.XVII,158 Vism.XVII,159 Vism.XVII,160 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga), Ch.XVII 158. After knowing this, again: One ought to consider the [pair] death and birth Under aggregates, object, cause, destiny, feeling, Happiness, and the thinking applied and sustained, Distinguishing them by unlikeness and likeness. 159. The meaning is this: there is rebirth-linking that is twofold as mixed and unmixed [with materiality], and there is the death consciousness next before it, and there unlikeness and likeness according to these aggregates, etc., must be known. How? 160. Sometimes, next to a four-aggregate immaterial death there is a four-aggregate rebirth-linking having a like object; sometimes there is an exalted rebirth-linking with an internal object next to an unexalted death with an external object. This, firstly, is the method in the case of the immaterial planes. Sometimes there is a five-aggregate sense-sphere rebirth-linking next to a four-aggregate immaterial death. Sometimes there is a four-aggregate immaterial rebirth-linking next to a five-aggregate sense-sphere death or fine-material-sphere death. Thus there is rebirth-linking with a 'present' object27 next to a death with a 'past' object, there is rebirth-linking in a certain unhappy destiny next to death in a certain happy destiny, there is rebirth-linking with root-cause next to root-causeless death, there is triple-root-cause rebirth-linking next to double-root-cause death, there is rebirth-linking accompanied by joy next to death accompanied by equanimity, there is rebirth-linking with happiness next to death without happiness, there is rebirth-linking with applied thought next to death without applied thought, there is rebirth-linking with sustained thought next to death without sustained thought, there is rebirth-linking with applied and sustained thought next to death without applied and sustained thought. In this way they can be coupled together by opposites as appropriate. ---------------------- Note 27. The Burmese ed. of the Sammohavinodanii has 'rebirth-linking with a past, not-so-classifiable, and present object next to' and so on. ******************** 158. eva.m viditvaa puna, khandhaaramma.nagatihetu-vedanaapiitivitakkavicaarehi. bhedaabhedaviseso, cutisandhiina.m pari~n~neyyo.. 159. yaa hesaa missaamissato duvidhaa pa.tisandhi, yaa cassaa atiitaanantaraa cuti, taasa.m imehi khandhaadiihi bhedaabhedaviseso ~naatabboti attho. katha.m? 160. kadaaci hi catukkhandhaaya aaruppacutiyaa anantaraa catukkhandhaava aaramma.natopi abhinnaa pa.tisandhi hoti. kadaaci amahaggatabahiddhaaramma.naaya mahaggataajjhattaaramma.naa. aya.m taava aruupabhuumiisuyeva nayo. kadaaci pana catukkhandhaaya aruupacutiyaa anantaraa pa~ncakkhandhaa kaamaavacarapa.tisandhi. kadaaci pa~ncakkhandhaaya kaamaavacaracutiyaa ruupaavacaracutiyaa vaa anantaraa catukkhandhaa aruupapa.tisandhi. eva.m atiitaaramma.naaya cutiyaa paccuppannaaramma.naa pa.tisandhi. ekaccasugaticutiyaa ekaccaduggatipa.tisandhi. ahetukacutiyaa sahetukapa.tisandhi. duhetukacutiyaa tihetukapa.tisandhi. upekkhaasahagatacutiyaa somanassasahagatapa.tisandhi. appiitikacutiyaa sappiitikapa.tisandhi. avitakkacutiyaa savitakkapa.tisandhi. avicaaracutiyaa savicaarapa.tisandhi. avitakkaavicaaracutiyaa savitakkasavicaarapa.tisandhiiti tassa tassa vipariitato ca yathaayoga.m yojetabba.m. #72892 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Fri Jun 1, 2007 5:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A Question About Evolutionary Mechanism egberdina Hi Howard, On 01/06/07, upasaka@... wrote: > > My problem with this is the following: An extraordinarily complex > process such as the scabbing, healing, drying-out-of-the-scab, and > sloughing-off-of-the-scab process is most unlikely to have suddenly appeared at random with > the birth of some particular animal. Instead, such a complex process would have > had to develop aspect by aspect over many, many, many generations, functional > system by functional system. However, until the entire process was in > existence, no parts of it would have been especially survival-oriented, and natural > selection would not apply until the entire process existed. In fact, without > the entire process existing, one wonders how a mammal would survive a wound at > all! Now, I'm not saying what would need to be the case in addition to the > natural selection mechanism, but it does seem to me that natural selection is > inadequate to explain the simply amazing biological characteristics of plants and > animals that we know of. It is not surprising to me that folks would look to > "intelligent design" types of explanation. I don't know what to look to, but I > do find an explanation along the lines of natural selection as inadequate. > Could any folks here knowledgeable about evolutionary theory explain to me why I > should *not* see it as inadequate? It is these days possible to trace what happens to a single human egg and a single human sperm, and see what happens when they happen to meet and interact in a certain way, and combine to become one. It is possible for that process to continue for nine months, and what emerges is totally unlike how it began, yet each of the billions of cells that make up the baby contains a replica of the initial information that began the process. Throughout this nine month period, the developing being morphs through many forms, including having gill slits, and a tail. It is not inconceivable that a gestating human foetus goes through all the evolutionary stages which preceded the evolution of the human form, in a vastly condensed time period. And it is time that is of the essence in evolution. Buddhism has some wonderful metaphors to illustrate the vastness of the oceans of evolutionary time. The one that comes to mind is the wearing away of a mountain by rubbing it once with a silk cloth once every hundred years. Such extent of time is unfathomable, just as a human brain, with some 100 billion cells, and upto 10,000 different connections for each brain cell, is unfathomable in complexity. Yet it is there, while nine months previously, there was only one cell. I think that if one couples the vastness of time with the vastness of space, then it is not inconceivable that even though a turtle may only surface once every hundred years, and there is only one float on the ocean, that the turtle will end up with the float around it's neck. Because there is not only one ocean, and only one turtle, there are uncountable oceans, with uncountable turtles each just bobbing up, according to the prevailing conditions. Going back to the conception of a baby. Each time a man ejaculates, he ejaculates an average of 250 million turtles. And out of all the times he ejaculates, a pregnancy may only result a few times in a lifetime. Thats trillion's of turtles bobbing up and down, and just one or two hits. But that is all that is needed for the cycle to continue and evolve. It is the seemingly unlimited extent of time and matter that make it conceivable that if there is only 1 adaptive mutation every trillion years in each galaxy, that more complex forms can arise out of simpler forms, IMO. Herman #72893 From: "Phil" Date: Fri Jun 1, 2007 5:03 pm Subject: Re: Clinging to kusala.....? philofillet Hi again James I thought afterwards that more important than our dislike of the akusala are the "guardians of the world" - moral dread and shame. Isn't our attention turned away from the unwholesome intention itself towards dread of the consequences, shame to be the kind of person who would do such a thing? Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > > Hi James > > > >I am really glad of that. > > However, you might also want to give up your notion that you shouldn't > > dislike akusala. If you give up that notion as well, you should find > > it much easier to practice Right Effort (i.e. thinking about Dhamma as > > a skillful means): > > > Maybe it was the word "hate", which sounds intense. #72894 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Jun 1, 2007 5:56 pm Subject: Re: Clinging to kusala.....? buddhatrue Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > > Hi again James > > I thought afterwards that more important than our dislike of the > akusala are the "guardians of the world" - moral dread and shame. > Isn't our attention turned away from the unwholesome intention > itself towards dread of the consequences, shame to be the kind of > person who would do such a thing? > I guess I will add a drop more on this subject. (I am just going to ramble a bit :-). We are talking about two different categories: 1. Kusala (wholesomeness) and Akusala (unwholesomeness) 2. Vedana (feelings) Feelings are automatic. Everything that we experience through the six doorways results automatically in a feeling. This cannot be stopped (in the non-arahant). The three feelings are pleasure, displeasure, and neutral (not to be confused with equanimity). Kusala and Akusala, however, can be controlled through Dhamma practice. Through the Eightfold Path, unwholesome mental states can be suppressed more and more until they are completely eliminated. The Abhidhamma is very good and very useful at describing those mental states which are kusala and akusala. And it also describes the feelings which accompany each of those mental states. Some people mistakenly think that wholesome mental states are always accompanied by a pleasant feeling and unwholesome mental states as always accompanied by an unpleasant feeling. This isn't true. In reality, most unwholesome mental states are accompanied by a pleasant feeling! It usually feels very good to be bad!! What KS is advocating, at least as much as I can tell, is that we should all cultivate equanimity (which is actually refined pleasant vedana, not neutral feeling [ignorance]) towards all mental states- kusala and akusala. Well, in a perfect world that might be possible, but we live in the real world! Feeling is automatic so it can't be turned on and off like a light switch. Equanimity is only possible in rare instances when the mind has been highly purified through meditation. Equanimity is not possible during everyday life, for most of us who are non-arahants. When we rid ourselves of our ignorance of perception, we will begin to see that although doing bad might feel good, it isn't really good. Then, we start to dislike or have aversion toward doing bad. And we find that even though doing good might not feel so good (as in giving up a bad habit), we start to like doing good. So, in everyday life, it is important to dislike the unwholesome and like the wholesome- otherwise we will continue riding the wheel of samsara. Hmmm…this is more than just a drop. ;-)) Metta, James #72895 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Jun 1, 2007 6:17 pm Subject: Re: Jhana as necessity to enlightenment... kenhowardau Hi Howard, You wrote to Nina: ---------- > To become an arahant, Nina, is not right concentration requisite? And > what of the following definitive material? > > "And what is right concentration? There is the case where a monk â€" quite > withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities â€" enters & > remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, & remains in > the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. > This is called right concentration."â€" SN 45.8 ----------- The Magga-vobhanga Sutta (which you have quoted) gives the same definition as is found in the Maha-satipatthana Sutta. The latter sutta, however, explains that Right Concnetration must be known "as it really is." The U Jotika and U Dhamminda translation reads in part: "Here, (in this teaching), bhikkhus, a bhikkhu knows as it really is, "This is dukkha"; he knows as it really is, "This is the cause of dukkha"; he knows as it really is, "This is the cessation of dukkha"; he knows as it really is, "This is the path leading to the cessation of dukkha.''" (end quote) Right Livelihood, for example, is one of the path factors to be known "as it really is." The sutta describes Right Livelihood as; "Here (in this teaching), bhikkhus, the noble disciple completely abstains from a wrong way of livelihood and makes his living by a right means of livelihood. This, bhikkhus, is called Right Livelihood;" (end quote) That is clearly a conventional understanding of something that has to be known AS IT REALLY IS. "Really" (in truth and reality) there is no "bhikkhu" and no "making a living." When there is right understanding of these things it will be strictly in terms of the 4 Noble Truths. Similarly Right Concentration is described as you have quoted it. It, too, has to be known AS IT REALLY IS. Do you see what I am getting at? Neither the given description of right livelihood nor the given description of right concentration is AS IT REALLY IS. It is something that HAS TO BE KNOWN as it really is. The cetasika, Right Livlihood, which will arise in a moment of Path- consciousness (Magga-citta), has nothing to do with its conventional equivalent (a person making a living). Similarly, the cetasika, Right Concentration, when it arises in a Magga-citta, will have nothing to do with its conventional equivalent (a person practising mundane jhana). Ken H #72896 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Jun 1, 2007 6:52 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sammaadi.t.thi study corner scottduncan2 Dear Herman, Thanks for your reply (I've played with the order a bit): H: "Ground is a good word in this context. It connotes a solid foundation. The denial of the body is not a common ground I wish to share with you :-)" Scott: Now, cut that out, man! 'Body' isn't this thing we look at or run around doing things with and too. This is body (Nyanatiloka): "Kaaya: lit: accumulation: 'group', 'body', may either refer to the physical body (ruupa-kaaya) or to the mental body (naama-kaaya) In the latter case it is either a collective name for the mental groups feeling, perception, mental constructions, consciousness; s. khandha or merely for feeling, perception and a few of the mental constructions see: naama e.g. in kaaya-lahutaa etc. cf. Tab. II.. kaaya has this same meaning in the standard description of the 3rd absorption jhaana and he feels joy in his mind or his mental constitution kaaya and e.g. Pug. 1-8 of the attainment of the 8 deliverances vimokkha, having attained the 8 deliverances in his mind, or his person kaaya - kaaya is also the 5th sense-organ, the body-organ; s. aayatana dhaatu, indriya" Scott: Whether ruupa-kaaya or naama-kaaya, 'body' refers to the momentarily arisen consciousness. Nothing lasts long enough for there to be anything called 'body' that is other than that. 'Body' is concept and the Buddha speaks conventionally when he says, 'Body'. It is a rather concrete argument, I think, that focuses on the so-called body as what it is. "Or his mindfulness is established with the thought: "The body exists," to the extent necessary just for knowledge and mindfulness, and he lives detached, and clings to nothing in the world." (Satipatthana Sutta). H: "What I thought it was about was that when one has perfected their jhanas, and when one "comes back to earth" from there (which happens to all practioners who do not die while in jhana), what remains is "this modicum of disturbance: that connected with the six sensory spheres, dependent on this very body with life as its condition." Of course, now seen as it is ie empty of what is not there. Which means empty of self, empty of anything worth clinging to, or empty of anything that merits aversion." Scott: Here are the six sensory spheres (Nyanatiloka, again). Please note that there is no reference to heads, hands, feet, torsos, etc.: "The 12 sources or bases on which depend the mental processes, consist of five physical sense-organs and consciousness, being the six internal ajjhattika sources; and the six objects, the so-called external baahira sources - namely: - eye, or visual organ and visible object - ear, or auditory organ and sound, or audible object - nose, or olfactory organ and odour, or olfactive object - tongue, or gustatory organ and taste, or gustative object - body, or tactile organ and body-contact, or tactile object - mind-base, or consciousness and idea or mental-object manÄ?yatana dhammaayatana By the visual organ cakkhaayatana is meant the sensitive part of the eye cakkhu-pasaada (retina) built up of the four elements... responding to sense-stimuli sa-ppatigha. Vibh. II. Similar is the explanation of the four remaining physical sense-organs. The source-of-mind manÄ?yatana is a collective term for all consciousness whatsoever, and should therefore not be confounded with the mental-element mano-dhaatu see: dhÄ?tu II, 16, which latter performs only the functions of directing aavajjana attention to the sense-object, and of receiving sampaticchana the data of the sense-object. On the functions of the mind, see: vi~n~naana-kicca The visible object ruupaayatana is described in Vibh. II as that phenomenon which is built up of the four primary elements and appears as color and form. What is seen by-visual perception, i.e. by visual-consciousness cakkhu-vi~n~naana are only colors and different intensities of light, but not three dimensional bodily things, which are interpretations. The thinkable mental-object-source dhammaayatana is identical with 'mental-object-element' dhamma-dhaatu, dhaatu II-17 and dhammaarammana see: aarammana. It may be physical or mental, past, present or future, real or imaginary. The 5 physical sense-organs are also called abilities indriya, and of these abilities it is said in M. 43: Each of the five abilities owns a different domain, and none of them partakes of the domain of another one;... they have mind as their support... are conditioned by mental vitality (neural metabolic activity). The 12 sense-source are fully discussed in Vis.M XV. In Yam III see: Guide, p 98f. are the 12 terms are subjected to a logical investigation The six internal bases form the 5th link of dependent origination paticca-samuppaada 5." Scott: Personally, I think he's going out on a limb to offer the opinion that 'mental vitality' is 'neural metabolic activity'. I'd offer my opinion that he is wrong about this and that 'neural metabolic activity' is too gross a concept and involves concepts as well. As I said, no body, no brain etc. Now, here I must assert that I am speaking from the point of view of Dhamma. That which we are so attached to and label 'body' is seen and experienced as it is due to ignorance as root. I know you will reply to that post in due time and am looking forward to it. Enough for now. Over... Sincerely, Scott. #72897 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Jun 1, 2007 6:54 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sammaadi.t.thi study corner scottduncan2 Dear Herman, Sorry: "Me: Whether ruupa-kaaya or naama-kaaya, 'body' refers to the momentarily arisen consciousness..." Scott: 'Consciousness' should be 'dhammas'. I'm rushing around and got careless... S. #72898 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jun 1, 2007 3:09 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana as necessity to enlightenment... upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 6/1/07 9:18:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowa@... writes: > The cetasika, Right Livlihood, which will arise in a moment of Path- > consciousness (Magga-citta), has nothing to do with its conventional > equivalent (a person making a living). Similarly, the cetasika, Right > Concentration, when it arises in a Magga-citta, will have nothing to > do with its conventional equivalent (a person practising mundane > jhana). > ======================== As best I can tell, it also has nothing to do with what the Buddha taught for 45 years as recorded in the suttas. Right livelihood means exactly "a wholesome and proper way of earning a living" in the suttas, not dealing in arms and so on. That is what the Buddha was talking about. For example there are the following: "And what is right livelihood? There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones, having abandoned dishonest livelihood, keeps his life going with right livelihood: This is called right livelihood."â€" SN 45.8 "A lay follower should not engage in five types of business. Which five? Business in weapons, business in human beings, business in meat, business in intoxicants, and business in poison."â€" AN 5.177 With metta, Howard #72899 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Jun 1, 2007 7:12 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Clinging to kusala.....? lbidd2 Hi James and Phil, James: "What KS is advocating, at least as much as I can tell, is that we should all cultivate equanimity..." Larry: I thought she was advocating satipatthana, experiencing the reality of whatever, kusala or akusala. Granted, that will arise with neutral feeling. Or it could arise with pleasant feeling. Sati with pleasant feeling with unpleasant feeling as object is even possible. It seems to me the root cetasikas, either kusala or akusala, are actually quite subtle and hard to recognize. What we usually gasp is the concept of kusala or akusala. But I think the reality of feeling is easy to recognize and experience as it is. I know Nina wont agree but I think rupa is fairly easy to grok. You have to separate it from conceptual identity, but even when we don't it's still fairly obvious. Larry #72900 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Jun 1, 2007 9:14 pm Subject: Re: Jhana as necessity to enlightenment... kenhowardau Hi Howard, ------------ H: > Right livelihood means exactly "a wholesome and proper way of earning > a living" in the suttas, not dealing in arms and so on. That is what the > Buddha was talking about. For example there are the following: > > "And what is right livelihood? There is the case where a disciple of the > noble ones, having abandoned dishonest livelihood, keeps his life going with right > livelihood: This is called right livelihood."â€" SN 45.8 > > "A lay follower should not engage in five types of business. Which five? > Business in weapons, business in human beings, business in meat, business in > intoxicants, and business in poison."â€" AN 5.177 ------------ So what do the Satipatthana and other suttas mean when they talk about knowing right livelihood "as it really is?" Ken H #72901 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Jun 1, 2007 10:25 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sammaadi.t.thi study corner jonoabb Hi Scott and Mike I've been following your discussion with interest, especially Scott's many relevant quotes. As I recall, the original point relating to mundane insight/panna arose because most of the references found in the suttas seem to be to supramundane insight. However, as Nina pointed out in a recent post to Phil: Satipatthana according to its [the Satipatthana Sutta's] co is described as mundane. There has to be a mundane Path before the lokuttara Path can be reached. All the teachings point to this. As I see it, a lot of suttas were pitched at the level of those about to attain enlightenment, and this accounts for the frequent references to the highest levels of development (indriyas, balas, bojjhangas, etc). Similarly, in M.117 which was being discussed earlier, where right view (panna) is given as twofold, namely, (a) affected by taints, partaking of merit, ripening on the side of attachments, and (b) noble, taintless, supramundane, the second category of right view would include mundane right view of the level of insight. That's as I understand it (although I would have to admit that BB's note 1103 at p.1322 is open to a different reading) Jon Scott Duncan wrote: > Dear Mike, > > I think I've quoted this before in part, and sorry if I'm repeating > myself but, in Visuddhimagga I,6-7: > > "'He who is possessed of constant virtue, > Who has understood and is concentrated, > Who is strenuous and diligent as well, > Will cross the flood so difficult to cross' > (S.i.53) > > "...Develops consciousness and understanding: develops both > concentration and insight. For it is concentration that is described > here under the heading of 'consciousness', and insight under that of > 'understanding'." > > Scott: And in Note 4, quoting Paramattha Ma~njuusaa, the > Visuddhimagga A.t.thakathaa: > > "'Develops' applies to both 'consciousness' and 'understanding'. But > are they mundane or supramundane? They are supramundane, because the > sublime goal is described; for one developing them is said to > disentangle the tangle of craving by cutting it off at the path > moment, and that is not mundane. But the mundane are included here > too because they immediately precede, since supramundane concentration > and insight are impossible without mundane concentration and insight > to precede them; for without the access and absorption concentration > in one whose vehicle is serenity, or without the momentary > concentration in one whose vehicle is insight, and without the > gateways to liberation, the supramundane can never in either case be > reached." > > Scott: I don't know if this gets closer to the consideration of > 'mundane insight', because I think this likely refers to the place of > 'mundane' moments of consciousness preceding the path, and points out > that the conditionality of things is such that one thing leads to > another. What do you think? I'll keep looking... > #72902 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jun 2, 2007 12:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana as necessity to enlightenment... jonoabb Hi James buddhatrue wrote: > Hi Jon, > > You really crack me up!! ... LOL! Are you smoking crack or what? ;-)) I'm getting confused here. Do you have crack on the mind? ;-)) > If the text states > that the bare-insight worker achieves the five jhana factors, then of > course it is the five JHANA factors. You can't say, "Well, of course, > these factors are not exclusive to jhana so jhana isn't involved since > the text doesn't mention jhana cittas." If the text states "jhana > factors" then of course it means jhana cittas; it couldn't mean > anything else. > I think there is a need to distinguish between the arising of the jhana factors and the arising of jhana citta (i.e., on the attainment of the jhana states). The two are not the same by any means. As I understand it (corrections welcome, anyone), the jhana factors arise at level of access concentration, while jhana citta arises only when absorption concentration is reached. In the concluding instalment of your mindfulness of death series ('Mindfulness of Death - 10'), this distinction is alluded to. The Vism says: <> According to this passage, none of the actual jhana states are reached when mindfulness of death is the object of samatha. > You are not convincing me of anything Jon; you are just irritating me. > It is an insult to my intelligence to put forth the bogus arguments > you put forth and expect me to believe them. Don't consider what > anyone else has written about this subject, just directly consider the > text. > > As I was writing to Nina, you must look at the larger passage. "IN > EACH CASE there are seven enlightenment factors, eight path factors, > and FIVE JHANA FACTORS….when their insight reaches the state of > equanimity about formations AT THE TIME OF EMERGENCE it is accompanied > by joy." "At the time of emergence" means when they emerge from the > first jhana, their insight is accompanied by joy. > I think 'emergence' here (Vism XXI, 112) refers to the attainment of enlightenment. 'Emergence' is said to be the manifestation of the NEP (see Vism XVI, 23). > The next section in the Vism. begins: "When the paths are made to > arise by using the second, third and fourth jhanas in the fivefold > reckoning as the basis for insight, then the jhana in those paths has > respectively four, three, and two, factors." > > So, the previous section, which contains the sukkha-vipassaka, is the > path which is made to arise using the first jhana. It is so clear! > All you have to do is read it! > I think the conclusion to be drawn is that in the previous section, the jhana is accompanied by all 5 jhana factors. Hoping this doesn't crack you apart completely! ;-)) Jon #72903 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Jun 1, 2007 11:04 pm Subject: Seeing the Possible as Possible! bhikkhu5 Friends: Seeing the Possible as Possible! Once when the Venerable Anuruddha was dwelling at Savatthi in Jeta's Grove , in AnÄ?thapindika 's Park, a number of Bhikkhus went to the Venerable Anuruddha & exchanged polite greetings with him. Then they sat down & asked the Ven. Anuruddha : Venerable Sir: What has the Venerable Anuruddha developed & cultivated so that he has attained to his famous greatness of direct knowledge? It is, friends, because I have developed and cultivated these four Foundations of Awareness that I have won great direct knowledge. What four? Here, friends, I dwell constantly contemplating upon: The Body only as a formed group, neither as I, me, mine, nor a self... The Feelings only as passing responses, neither as I, mine, nor self... The Mind only as temporary mentalities, neither as I, nor any self... All Phenomena only as constructed mental states not as existents... while eager, clearly comprehending, & fully aware , thereby removing all desire & frustration rooted in this world! It is, friends, because I have developed & cultivated these Four Foundations of Awareness that I have become empowered with suprahuman forces: I see and understand the possible as possible & the impossible as impossible... Further, friends, I see & fully understand all the results of any past, future, and present action (kamma ) by way of its potential & cause. Further, friends, it is because I have developed & cultivated these Four Foundations of Awareness, that I understand exactly where whatever way and praxis leads to in the future... Source (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. [V:304] section 52: Anuruddha. Thread 15-7: The Possible as Possible! For details on the mechanics of Kamma = Action see: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/Kamma_is_intention.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/Buddha_on_Kamma.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/Good_Action_dilutes_Evil_Kamma.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/Kamma_leading_to_short_ &_long_life.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/Effect_of_Action_(kamma)_is_Delayed.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/Kamma_leading_to_Health_&_Sickness.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/Kamma_leading_to_Low_or_High_Birth.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/Kamma_leading_to_Wealth_or_Poverty.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/Kamma_leading_to_Beauty_&_Ugliness.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/Kamma_leading_to_Power_or_Disrespect.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/Evil_Kamma_enhances_other_Evil_Kamma.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/Kamma_leading_to_Stupidity_or_Intelligence.\ htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/Good_Action_enhances_other_Good_Kamma.htm Seeing the Possible as Possible! Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Ceylon * <....> #72904 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 2, 2007 12:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana as necessity to enlightenment... nilovg Hi James, I am glad you ask. From the Visuddhimagga. It is repeated and emphasized: Ch IV, 79: quite secluded from sense desires. The life one is leading should be in conformity with the jhana that one will attain. it is no good to enjoy pleasant things and then sit for jhana during certain hours of the day. A person must be careful not to take for jhana what is a kind of paranormal experience. This is very, very dangerous. One has to be really careful to sever the impediments. No travelling, for example. The impediments are explained in Ch III, from 29 on. They are not impediments for insight, except the last one: supernormal powers. Nina. Op 2-jun-2007, om 0:30 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > and one must lead a life "wholly > > secluded from sense pleasures". > > Where is this quote from? #72905 From: "Ramesh Wamanrao Patil" Date: Fri Jun 1, 2007 7:24 am Subject: Happiness,peace and elimination of suffering!!! rameshat27 Namo tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammâ Sambuddhassa! Taken from The Tree Of Enlightment By Dr Peter Della Santina Everybody wants to be happy. Nobody wants to live a life filled with problems and heartache. None of us start out with the intention of ending up miserable, yet so many of us grow to be that way that we have come to accept this condition as normal. Living without pain and suffering is a skill, like any other you can think of. If you don't put effort into your job, you will soon be unemployed. If you don't work at your marriage or relationship, you will find yourself alone. The same is true of living well. If you don't train your mind you will have `good days' and `bad days' depending on what happens around you. It's possible to spend your entire life just reacting and responding to the things that happen to you. Many people float through life this way but very few of them achieve happiness. If you control your mind it does not matter what is occurring in the surrounding environment, you will be happy and content. If you have `good' and `bad' days your environment is in control and you will frequently experience unnecessary suffering. Once you realize that it is possible to be happy under any circumstances it's not difficult to train your mind. Any one can follow the simple directions found in this Buddhas teaching and acquire mental peace if they make the effort. It doesn't matter what circumstances you are in, but what about those who come from an incredibly wide assortment of occupations. What these people have in common is the desire to improve their lives only.Still trying repetatively, they could not achieve the things.There own people doesn't support them.Only pain and misery, they have. But the time came and They have discovered that Noble is the Tathagatas Sangha, Sublime is the Tathagatas Sangha, where Vinaya,Dhamma and Mind training greatly reduces suffering and then completely eliminates suffering. This training consists of practice and study only. These noble ones went to the refuge of the sangha, and says Tathagatas Sangha is guide to happiness, peace and elimination of suffering!!! with metta Ramesh Patil Mumbai,India #72906 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 2, 2007 1:47 am Subject: Q. re: Jhana as necessity to enlightenment nilovg Hi Howard, I do not feel like debating all the issues we have gone over before, like the Susimasutta. You think differently from me, and so be it. I shall try to react to a few points. But I wonder why you want to speak only about the arahat. This is too far for me. I need help now! No time to lose, getting old and sick. For everyone: ten years fly by, we are almost dying. -------- H: Right concentration is certainly requisite for becoming an arahant. (It was becoming an arahant that was being discussed, not becoming a lesser ariyan.) The sutta I quoted, SN 45.8, which defines right concentration to be the attaining of the 1st four jhanas doesn't appear at all ambiguous. What would be a "non-categorical" understanding of it? ------ N: I could not find this annotation, SN 45.8. it is standard for many suttas, right. Even B.B. does not conclude: everyone, even the person who will be arahat, has to attain jhana. He leaves the matter open. I should add: he does not take into account the Abhidhamma, Puggala pa~n~natti which is very clear. And nobody wants to answer me as to this. ---------- H: I don't understand your position, Nina. Right concentration is taught by the Buddha to be a requisite for full awakening, and the sutta I quoted is clear in what right concentration is. Why should contrary commentarial views be given precedence over the clear words of the Buddha? ------ N: So easy to misinterpretate sutta at this time, being far away from the Buddha's time. There are also suttas which do not define right concentration as the four jhanas. But the Buddha included all levels of concentration, also of those who attained mundane jhana. And then, be careful: in several contexts it is also lokuttara concentration, having nibbaana as object. > ============================ H:Nina, I don't understand the contortions to which you and others go in order to avoid the plain teaching of the Buddha that jhana is requisite for arahantship. I just do not get it. ------- N: Heyya Howard, this is forcefully expressed ;-)) What shall I say. It is your conviction, but I myself need help now. Take Ken H's post. I am not thinking of defending him, not thinking of camps or debates, just thinking of what I need now. Dhamma is Dhamma and it does not matter who speaks about it. You have to check it for yourself. Ken H: This is refreshing to me, so helpful. It is good he refers to the satipatthana sutta. Each section refers to vipassana: realizing the origination dhammas and the dissolution dhammas. Arising and ceasing seen as momentary and seen according to the Dependent Origination. Concentration, understanding, all these factors have to BE KNOWN as they really are. Otherwise it is you who concentrates, who understands. Is that not a real danger? Concentration that accompanies right understanding of the eightfold Path performs its function, it focusses on the nama or rupa that is the object. 'You' do not have to try to focus. Why always emphasize this factor? Pa~n~naa is the leader. We read in the sutta( S IV) the All, that the all has to be known, and this is elaborated on in the Path of Discrimination. I think that this is most important. Again, we can so easily misinterpretate suttas, especially if one discards the Abhidhamma. An example is: the phrase that happiness and bliss suffuse the whole body. One can take lobha for the jhanafactors. It is quite worrysome that people are misled here and relish in happy feeling, enjoying it. The Abhidhamma teaches us that happy feeling and piti, rapture, can also accompany cittas rooted in attachment. The Abhidhamma is sobering, one needs the Abhidhamma to cool down. You repeat that conditions have to be cultivated, and I agree. When we listen and consider there is each time a little more understanding. However, for the actual arising of sati sampaja~n~na 'we' cannot do anything. It is anattaa, we are not master of it. Cittas are so fast, so fast. You have considered anatta a great deal, you are reminded by an experience you have had. But it is beneficial to appy it to sati sampaja~n~na now, at this moment. No time to lose. Nina. #72907 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jun 2, 2007 12:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana as necessity to enlightenment... upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 6/2/07 12:15:24 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowa@... writes: > So what do the Satipatthana and other suttas mean when they talk > about knowing right livelihood "as it really is?" > ===================== When the Buddha *said* what it is, he said what I quoted. To know it as it really is is to not delude oneself, making excuses - which people do all the time. ("Oh, it's okay, I don't sell alcohol to underage kids or to obvious drunks, and certanly not to monks!") Engaging in a wrong livelihood hurts others and hurts oneself. Again and again it wears down one's moral sense, it leads one to interact with immoral people, it can cause upset in oneself, and it is conducive to upset. But having a wholesome livelihood is just the opposite, again and again fostering morality and ease, and doing good in the world. With metta, Howard #72908 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jun 2, 2007 12:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana as necessity to enlightenment... upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 6/2/07 3:53:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > One has to be really careful to sever the impediments. No travelling, > for example. > ======================== I presume that by that you mean no vacationing. The Buddha took his monks and nuns on quite a bit of traveling, right? Also, plenty of Buddhist monks in modern times have traveled for example from an Asian nation to Europe and to the Western hemisphere. That's all traveling. What of traveling to India to for devotional purposes? BTW, it is possible to meditate on trains and planes, and in hotel rooms for that matter. With metta, Howard #72909 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat Jun 2, 2007 4:48 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana as necessity to enlightenment... kenhowardau Hi Howard, Sorry to be firing questions at you, but my next question is: can the selling of alcohol be directly known as anicca, dukkha and anatta? Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Ken - > > In a message dated 6/2/07 12:15:24 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > kenhowa@... writes: > > > So what do the Satipatthana and other suttas mean when they talk > > about knowing right livelihood "as it really is?" > > > ===================== > When the Buddha *said* what it is, he said what I quoted. To know it > as it really is is to not delude oneself, making excuses - which people do all > the time. ("Oh, it's okay, I don't sell alcohol to underage kids or to obvious > drunks, and certanly not to monks!") #72910 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jun 2, 2007 5:18 am Subject: Jhana as requisite for enlightenment - in what sense requisite? jonoabb Hi Howard (and Nina) upasaka@... wrote: > Hi, Nina - > > ... > > Right concentration is certainly requisite for becoming an arahant. > (It was becoming an arahant that was being discussed, not becoming a lesser > ariyan.) The sutta I quoted, SN 45.8, which defines right concentration to be the > attaining of the 1st four jhanas doesn't appear at all ambiguous. What would > be a "non-categorical" understanding of it? > I don't understand your position, Nina. Right concentration is taught > by the Buddha to be a requisite for full awakening, and the sutta I quoted is > clear in what right concentration is. Why should contrary commentarial views > be given precedence over the clear words of the Buddha? > The commentarial explanation of the factors of the NEP as momentary, co-arising factors is not 'contrary' to the suttas in any sense, as far as I'm aware. You own view, I think, is that the clear meaning of the passage from SN 45:8 is that the attainment of the mundane jhanas is requisite for becoming an arahant. Have I got this right? If that is the interpretation, then I think we need to consider the following: 1. If jhana is not requisite for the development of mundane insight (but only for enlightenment), then what would be the obstacle to insight being developed further and further until all the stages of insight have been attained? In other words, at what stage, and for what reason, does further development of insight become impossible without the jhanas? 2. Is jhana requisite in the sense that arahantship can only be attained where jhana is used as the basis for insight? Or is it sufficient that jhaana has been attained at any time in the same lifetime (and need not be used as the basis for insight)? 3. If the first jhana only is sufficient, as the passage would suggest, it seems unnecessary to go on to mention the second to fourth jhanas (or, in the case of the AN sutta you quote below, the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception). I'd be interested to know if these matters are also explained in the suttas, as you read them. Also, where do you find in the passage quoted (or elsewhere in the same sutta), words limiting the description of the NEP to the attainment of arahantship only, rather than all 4 levels of enlightenment? Does this apply to all 8 factors, or only to Right Concentration, as you read the suttas? Jon > Incidently, the Buddha also taught the following: "I tell you, the > ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana... the second jhana > ... the third... the fourth... the dimension of the infinitude of space... the > dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness. > I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the dimension > of neither perception nor non-perception."â€" AN 9.36 > #72911 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jun 2, 2007 1:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. re: Jhana as necessity to enlightenment upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 6/2/07 4:49:32 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > I do not feel like debating all the issues we have gone over before, > like the Susimasutta. You think differently from me, and so be it. I > shall try to react to a few points. But I wonder why you want to > speak only about the arahat. This is too far for me. I need help now! > No time to lose, getting old and sick. For everyone: ten years fly > by, we are almost dying. -------------------------------------------- Howard: Nina, I'd be happy to talk about anything. We *were* talking about the claim that jhana is not necessary to become an arahant, I believe, and that is all that I am disputing. I just don't know what the least stage of awakening is for which jhana is required. I do suspect that it is *not* needed for stream entry. As for help now, yes we all need that. That is why I practice. It isn't knowing for sure whether jhana is requisite for the lesser ariyan attainments or not that is critical, but whether we do all that we can in following the Dhamma. If jhana is unnecessary for the lesser attainments, cultivation is still to the good in any case. Actually attaining jhanas is supportive to the nth degree, but even when falling short, the mental cultivation of calm and clarity resulting from the process is beneficial. -------------------------------------------- > -------- > H: Right concentration is certainly requisite for becoming an arahant. > (It was becoming an arahant that was being discussed, not becoming a > lesser > ariyan.) The sutta I quoted, SN 45.8, which defines right > concentration to be the > attaining of the 1st four jhanas doesn't appear at all ambiguous. > What would > be a "non-categorical" understanding of it? > ------ > N: I could not find this annotation, SN 45.8. it is standard for many > suttas, right. > Even B.B. does not conclude: everyone, even the person who will be > arahat, has to attain jhana. He leaves the matter open. I should add: > he does not take into account the Abhidhamma, Puggala pa~n~natti > which is very clear. And nobody wants to answer me as to this. > ---------- > H: I don't understand your position, Nina. Right concentration is taught > by the Buddha to be a requisite for full awakening, and the sutta I > quoted is > clear in what right concentration is. Why should contrary > commentarial views > be given precedence over the clear words of the Buddha? > ------ > N: So easy to misinterpretate sutta at this time, being far away from > the Buddha's time. There are also suttas which do not define right > concentration as the four jhanas. > ------------------------------------- Howard: There is another that speaks of right concentration *with its supports*. But, in any case, why dismiss SN 45.8 which is so straightforwardly clear. What is the motivation to do that? ----------------------------------- But the Buddha included all levels > > of concentration, also of those who attained mundane jhana. And then, > be careful: in several contexts it is also lokuttara concentration, > having nibbaana as object. > > > > ============================ > H:Nina, I don't understand the contortions to which you and others go in > order to avoid the plain teaching of the Buddha that jhana is > requisite for > arahantship. I just do not get it. > ------- > N: Heyya Howard, this is forcefully expressed ;-)) > What shall I say. It is your conviction, but I myself need help now. -------------------------------------------- Howard: Who in the world says that you or I should not get help now? Of course we should! Now is the time to do what needs to be done. Samvega!! What help are you looking for? The Buddha gave us all the help we need. He threw us the ball. Now we need to run with it. :-) ------------------------------------------ > Take Ken H's post. I am not thinking of defending him, not thinking > of camps or debates, just thinking of what I need now. > Dhamma is Dhamma and it does not matter who speaks about it. You > have to check it for yourself. > > Ken H: it. It, > too, has to be known AS IT REALLY IS. > Do you see what I am getting at? Neither the given description of > right livelihood nor the given description of right concentration is > AS IT REALLY IS. It is something that HAS TO BE KNOWN as it really is.> > > This is refreshing to me, so helpful. > ---------------------------------------- Howard: What is the help, Nina? Do you now know right concentration? Do you know it as it is? ---------------------------------------- It is good he refers to the > > satipatthana sutta. Each section refers to vipassana: realizing the > origination dhammas and the dissolution dhammas. Arising and ceasing > seen as momentary and seen according to the Dependent Origination. ----------------------------------------- Howard: You've read the sutta many, many times, I'm sure, Nina. So, now do you know the origination and dissolution of dhammas? ---------------------------------------- > Concentration, understanding, all these factors have to BE KNOWN as > they really are. ----------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, they *do*. --------------------------------------- > Otherwise it is you who concentrates, who understands. Is that not a > real danger? > Concentration that accompanies right understanding of the eightfold > Path performs its function, it focusses on the nama or rupa that is > the object. 'You' do not have to try to focus. Why always emphasize > this factor? Pa~n~naa is the leader. ---------------------------------------- Howard: So, has your reading cultivated the pa~n~na? What further help, then, are you looking for? And, Nina, I rarely if ever talk about "focus". My meditating is not one of locked focus - it has considerable ease to it. I speak more of calm than concentration. My meditating is one of easeful attention, with breath at the center, but not a sole focus. In fact, that is my understanding of the Anapanasati Sutta. ---------------------------------------- > > We read in the sutta( S IV) the All, that the all has to be known, > and this is elaborated on in the Path of Discrimination. I think that > this is most important. --------------------------------------- Howard: So do I. One disclaimer, though: Seeing the tilakkhana in even one area, truly seeing them, will accomplish a million-fold more than seeing a million areas without seeing the tilakkhana, and a billion-fold more than just reading about all the dhammas. ----------------------------------------- > > Again, we can so easily misinterpretate suttas, especially if one > discards the Abhidhamma. An example is: the phrase that happiness and > bliss suffuse the whole body. One can take lobha for the > jhanafactors. It is quite worrysome that people are misled here and > relish in happy feeling, enjoying it. The Abhidhamma teaches us that > happy feeling and piti, rapture, can also accompany cittas rooted in > attachment. The Abhidhamma is sobering, one needs the Abhidhamma to > cool down. ----------------------------------------- Howard: And to refrain from practice, it sounds to me. ---------------------------------------- > You repeat that conditions have to be cultivated, and I agree. When > we listen and consider there is each time a little more > understanding. However, for the actual arising of sati sampaja~n~na > 'we' cannot do anything. It is anattaa, we are not master of it. > Cittas are so fast, so fast. -------------------------------------- Howard: And evidently quite random! Nina, this is not what the Buddha taught in the suttas. He did not teach that there is is nothing to be done. Sure, there is no "we". That does *not* mean that the Buddha didn't teach conventional things to be done. He *did*! There is a joke about a man who stands on the roof of his house as flood waters are rising. Three times he sent away boats coming to rescue him, saying that God would save him. Finally he drowned and went to heaven. He angrily asked God why He did nothing to save him. God replied "Why, I *did* send you three boats!" Well, Nina, the Buddha has sent us a raft to cross the flood. But we have to be willing to board it. ------------------------------------------------- > You have considered anatta a great deal, you are reminded by an > experience you have had. But it is beneficial to appy it to sati > sampaja~n~na now, at this moment. No time to lose. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Yes, I agree. ----------------------------------------------- > Nina. > ====================== With metta, Howard #72912 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 2, 2007 5:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Clinging to kusala.....? nilovg Hi Larry, nama is more subtle, it has no shape, no form. It depends on conditions what appears to sati more often, no rule. Nina. Op 2-jun-2007, om 4:12 heeft LBIDD@... het volgende geschreven: > I know Nina wont agree but I think rupa is fairly easy to > grok. You have to separate it from conceptual identity, but even > when we > don't it's still fairly obvious. #72913 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 2, 2007 5:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddha's relic and curiosity. nilovg Dear Herman, thanks for your post. At times your patience may be tried at your new job, but as you said, Dhamma lessons help. Yes, we play regularly: two pianos and also recorder. Tomorrow two nephews are joining: a cello and another recorder. We do this already for years. Jus following accumulations, doing things naturally. Satipatthana in daily life for a layperson does not mean not following after pleasant objects. Our natural inclinations have to be known for what they are, they are conditioned already. Nina. Op 2-jun-2007, om 1:28 heeft Herman Hofman het volgende geschreven: > Do you still play at all? #72914 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Sat Jun 2, 2007 5:42 am Subject: Taking a sign egberdina Hi anybody, if anybody (that means you!!) would like to offer their opinion, I (that means me) would be most pleased to hear the significance of "taking a sign" in the following: 3. Tapussasuttam The householder Tapassu 012.03. Bhikkhus, the householder Tapassu endowed with six things and taking a sign from the Thus Gone One has seen deathlessness realized the highest and behaves. What six? Unwavering faith, in The Blessed One, in the Teaching, in the Community of bhikkhus, in the noble one's virtues, in the noble one's knowledge and the noble one's release. Bhikkhus, the householder Tapassu endowed with these six things and taking a sign from the Thus Gone One has seen deathlessness realized the highest and behaves. 4. Bhallikàdisuttàm The householer Bhallika and others 012.04. Bhikkhus, the householders Bhallika, ... re ... Sudatta, ... re ... Anàthapiõóika, ... re ... Citta, ... re ... Macchikàsandika, ... re ... Hatthaka Aalavaka, ... re ... Mahanama the Sakya, ... re ... Ugga the householder of Vesali, ... re ... the householder Ugga, ... re ... Sura Ambattha, ... re ... Jãvaka Komarabacca, ... re ... the householder Nakula ... re ... the householder Tavakannika, ... re ... the houeholders Purana and Isidatta. The householders Sandhana, ... re ... Vijaya, ... re ... Vajjiyamahita, ... re ... Mendaka. The disciples Vasettha ... re ... Arittha, ... re ... Saragga, endowed with six things and taking a sign from the Thus Gone One has seen deathlessness realized the highest and behaves. What six? Unwavering faith, in The Blessed One, in the Teaching, in the Community of bhikkhus, in the noble one's virtues, in the noble one's knowledge and the noble one's release. Bhikkhus, the disciple Saragga endowed with these six things and taking a sign from the Thus Gone One has seen deathlessness realized the highest and behaves. If you need sources, google it. That's what I do. Herman #72915 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jun 2, 2007 1:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana as necessity to enlightenment... upasaka_howard Hi, Ken In a message dated 6/2/07 7:48:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowa@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > Sorry to be firing questions at you, but my next question is: can the > selling of alcohol be directly known as anicca, dukkha and anatta? ----------------------------------------- Howard: All aspects of it can be directly so known. Also, the conventional activity of selling alcohol can be seen to be not permanent, as leading to all sorts of distress. Being a merely conventional phenomenon, it can also be seen as anatta. Most important of all, it can be seen to be harmful to others and to oneself, and it has been explicity proscribed by the Buddha. It is a wrong livelihood, wrong because of allthe injurious effects it has in the moment. ------------------------------------------------ > > Ken H > ====================== With metta, Howard #72916 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jun 2, 2007 1:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Jhana as requisite for enlightenment - in what sense requisite? upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 6/2/07 8:25:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: > Hi Howard (and Nina) > > upasaka@... wrote: > >Hi, Nina - > > > >... > > > > Right concentration is certainly requisite for becoming an arahant. > >(It was becoming an arahant that was being discussed, not becoming a lesser > > >ariyan.) The sutta I quoted, SN 45.8, which defines right concentration to > be the > >attaining of the 1st four jhanas doesn't appear at all ambiguous. What > would > >be a "non-categorical" understanding of it? > > I don't understand your position, Nina. Right concentration is taught > >by the Buddha to be a requisite for full awakening, and the sutta I quoted > is > >clear in what right concentration is. Why should contrary commentarial > views > >be given precedence over the clear words of the Buddha? > > > > The commentarial explanation of the factors of the NEP as momentary, > co-arising factors is not 'contrary' to the suttas in any sense, as far > as I'm aware. > > You own view, I think, is that the clear meaning of the passage from SN > 45:8 is that the attainment of the mundane jhanas is requisite for > becoming an arahant. Have I got this right? If that is the > interpretation, then I think we need to consider the following: > > 1. If jhana is not requisite for the development of mundane insight > (but only for enlightenment), then what would be the obstacle to insight > being developed further and further until all the stages of insight have > been attained? In other words, at what stage, and for what reason, does > further development of insight become impossible without the jhanas? ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Gosh, Jon, I don't know. There are lots of things I don't know. Going to arahant is a rather big step, though, wouldn't you say. Becoming stream enterer in a way is the most significant, but it also seems to be the least the least demanding step. ------------------------------------------------ > > 2. Is jhana requisite in the sense that arahantship can only be > attained where jhana is used as the basis for insight? Or is it > sufficient that jhaana has been attained at any time in the same > lifetime (and need not be used as the basis for insight)? ----------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't know, Jon. I suspect that it is the mental cultivation that jhana provides that makes it necessary.You know, making the mind a fit and malleable tool? ----------------------------------------------- > > 3. If the first jhana only is sufficient, as the passage would suggest, > it seems unnecessary to go on to mention the second to fourth jhanas > (or, in the case of the AN sutta you quote below, the dimension of > neither perception nor non-perception). ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Why not mention them? Any will do the job, I suspect. The 4th is optimal. ---------------------------------------------- > > I'd be interested to know if these matters are also explained in the > suttas, as you read them. > > Also, where do you find in the passage quoted (or elsewhere in the same > sutta), words limiting the description of the NEP to the attainment of > arahantship only, rather than all 4 levels of enlightenment? Does this > apply to all 8 factors, or only to Right Concentration, as you read the > suttas? ------------------------------------------- Howard: I've been led to believe that it is not necessary for stream entry. I could, of course, be wrong in that. Maybe the jhanas are needed even for stream entry! ;-) -------------------------------------------- > > Jon > > ===================== With metta, Howard #72917 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Jun 2, 2007 5:58 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sammaadi.t.thi study corner scottduncan2 Dear Jon, Thanks for your reply: J: "...As I recall, the original point relating to mundane insight/panna arose because most of the references found in the suttas seem to be to supramundane insight. However, as Nina pointed out in a recent post to Phil: Satipatthana according to its [the Satipatthana Sutta's] co is described as mundane. There has to be a mundane Path before the lokuttara Path can be reached. All the teachings point to this." Scott: I see this as being about the development (bhaavanaa) of pa~n~naa and about object. Please critique this argument: Mundane insight, while a function of pa~n~naa, has conditioned dhammas as object and is condition for thinking and conceptualising. I guess there can be 'right thinking and conceptualising'. Supramundane insight is so designated because it has Nibbaana as object. J: "...Similarly, in M.117 which was being discussed earlier, where right view (panna) is given as twofold, namely, (a) affected by taints, partaking of merit, ripening on the side of attachments, and (b) noble, taintless, supramundane, the second category of right view would include mundane right view of the level of insight." Scott: 'Ripening on the side of attachments' would suggest to me that this is related to conditioned dhammas, and hence 'mundane'. How do you see 'mundane right view' as being included in the second category? Here's the BB note: Note 1103 (pp.1327-8): "This definition defines supramundane right view as the wisdom (pa~n~naa) found among the aids to enlightenment as a faculty, power, enlightenment factor, and path factor. The definition is formulated by way of cognitive function rather than objective content of right view. Elsewhere (MN 141.24) the right view of the path is defined as knowledge of the Four Noble Truths. We may understand that the conceptual comprehension of the four truths falls under mundane right view, while the direct penetration of the truths by realising Nibbaana with the path constitutes supramundane right view." Sincerely, Scott. #72918 From: "Phil" Date: Sat Jun 2, 2007 6:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddha's relic and curiosity. philofillet Hi Nina First of all, many thanks for the Perfections book you sent me. As you know, I really enjoyed listening to Lodewijk reading it. My favourite passage is in Virya (energy) about the old house sagging. That is what we are when we do not have virya for kusala. >Jus following accumulations, doing things naturally. > Satipatthana in daily life for a layperson does not mean not > following after pleasant objects. Our natural inclinations have to be > known for what they are, they are conditioned already. This sounds like the old house sagging to me, Nina! Let's rouse our energy for kusala. We don't need to drift along on the same route that are conditioned already. No, no. Music is fine, but if you were talking about the kind of pleasant objects I am conditioned to pursue, it would be very wrong. Shall I leave DSG and spend some time drifting through pornographic sites? Pleasant objects, and that is my natural inclination. I refuse to follow that natural inclination. "Doing things naturally" for me is most definitely not the Buddha's path! Maybe your "doing things naturally" is different from mine. Metta, Phil #72919 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 2, 2007 6:39 am Subject: Our dialogues in Paris, 2. nilovg Dear friends, I read to Lodewijk more texts on sati. Text Vis.: It should be regarded, however, as like a pillar because it is firmly founded, or as like a door-keeper because it guards the eye-door, and so on. N: Mindfulness guards the doors of the senses and the mind-door. Whenever there is mindfulness of visible object that appears and this is realized as only a ruupa appearing through the eyedoor, we are not infatuated by this object, there are no lobha, dosa or moha on account of it. < Mindfulness is an indriya, a " controlling faculty", a "leader' of the citta and accompanying cetasikas in its function of heedfulness, of non-forgetfulness of what is wholesome. We read in the Expositor ((I, Part IV, Ch II< 147): <... It exercises government (over associated states) in the characteristic of presenting or illuminating the object- this is the faculty of mindfulness.> As the Tiika explains, sati does not go elsewhere but confronts the object that presents itself. Sati does not move away from the present object, it is steadfast like a pillar.> N: Sati presents and illuminates the object appearing at that moment so that pa~n~naa can know it as it is: a naama or a ruupa that is not self. As I said, the difference should be known between the moments with sati and the moments of thinking of concepts. Sati is aware of the object appearing at the present moment, and this is one naama or ruupa as it presents itself through one of the senses or the mind- door. Usually we think of the whole body or a person. But when there are the right conditions sati can arise and it does so without us doing anything about it, it arises unexpectedly. Then we can learn that sati is anattaa. Lodewijk said that he finds it important that sati illuminates the object, so that it stands out. Suddenly one object appears and we can see that this is not caused by a self. He finds that this truly helps to understand that sati is anatta. We were admiring the paintings in the Louvre Museum and quite absorbed in the stories that were so beautifully depicted, but sometimes there could be remembrance of the teachings telling us that only visible object is seen. It appears through the eyes. When we close our eyes nothing appears. The Commentary to the Satipatthanasutta, the section on Mindfulness of body, explains that< contemplating the collection of primary and derived materiality is comparable to the separation of the leaf- integument of a plaintain trunk or is like the opening of an empty fist.> When one peals a plaintain trunk one sees that there is no core within, that it is empty. We find a painting that is seen very important and we were keen to walk all around the museum and see many more things, but in fact only visible object is seen for a moment and then falls away and so does seeing. We cannot take anything with us. I often made the gesture of opening an empty fist to Lodewijk when walking around to see this and that again. We never had enough and we behaved as if we could take all that was seen with us. Also infatuation is a dhamma that can be known as it is. It is conditioned. We should not move away from the present object. If we do, we obstruct the arising of sati and right understanding. ------- Nina. #72920 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 2, 2007 6:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddha's relic and curiosity. nilovg Dear Phil, thank you for your kind post. Often the old house is sagging, but there can be awareness even in the middly of playing music. That is what I mean by doing things naturally. Energy arises also with sati sampaja~n~na and then it is kusala energy. We can learn that it is not my energy. I agree that the chapter on energy is very helpful: < It does not matter whether the perfection of energy arising with satipaììhåna occurs often or seldom, viriya is not weary of the task of studying and noticing the reality that appears. When viriya arises, we are not discouraged; viriya is always performing its task even if the process of de- velopment of understanding is extremely slow and difficult. The perfection of energy is most important and it should be developed together with the other perfections so that the appropriate conditions are accumulated for reaching the further shore, that is, nibbåna.> Nina. Op 2-jun-2007, om 15:04 heeft Phil het volgende geschreven: > Our natural inclinations have to > be > > known for what they are, they are conditioned already. > > This sounds like the old house sagging to me, Nina! Let's rouse our > energy for kusala. We don't need to drift along on the same route that > are conditioned already. #72921 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 2, 2007 7:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sammaadi.t.thi study corner nilovg Dear Scott: Comment to B.B. note:I take it that mundane right view is much more than conceptual understanding, because as Kh Sujin said, we have to relate the four noble Truths to the present moment. The first round has to be quite firm. The considering has to be of the present moment. There is already a beginning of awareness, how otherwise could there be a firm understanding of: this is the right Path, not moving away to something other but the present object. Not doing other things first, but awareness now. Nina. Op 2-jun-2007, om 14:58 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: > We may > understand that the conceptual comprehension of the four truths falls > under mundane right view, while the direct penetration of the truths > by realising Nibbaana with the path constitutes supramundane right > view." #72922 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 2, 2007 7:06 am Subject: Conditions Ch 2, no 6. nilovg Dear friends, Nibbåna and the eight lokuttara cittas which experience Nibbåna cannot be objects of clinging. The magga-cittas (lokuttara kusala cittas) of the different stages of enlightenment eradicate defilements and finally, at the stage of arahatship, they eradicate all kinds of clinging. We read in the "Paììhåna" (Faultless Triplet, Investigation Chapter, Object, § 410): Learners review (lower) Fruition. (They) review Nibbåna. Nibbåna is related to change-of-lineage, purification, Path by object-condition. Nibbåna is object-condition for the eight lokuttara cittas which experience it, namely, the four magga-cittas (path-consciousness, lokuttara kusala citta) and the four phala-cittas ("fruition", lokuttara vipåkacitta) arising at the four stages of enlightenment. Nibbåna is also object-condition for the "change-of lineage", gotrabhú, mahå-kusala citta accompanied by paññå, arising in the process during which enlightenment is attained, which precedes the magga-citta of the sotåpanna and which is the first citta experiencing nibbåna. "Purification" is the mahå-kusala citta accompanied by paññå preceding the magga-cittas of the three higher stages of enlightenment. Nibbåna is also object-condition for the mahå-kiriyacittas accompanied by paññå of the arahat. Concepts are objects of kusala citta, akusala citta or kiriyacitta. We cling time and again to possessions, we want to have things such as money, cloths or cars. Concepts can condition akusala citta by way of object-condition. Clinging cannot be eradicated immediately, but we can develop understanding in order to see things as they really are. Concepts such as a person or a car are real in conventional sense, they are not real in the ultimate sense. If we only pay attention to concepts we tend to cling more and more to them. We may consider them the goal of our life. Time and again we are absorbed in our thoughts about people and things we perceive and we do not pay attention to the cittas which think at such moments, thus, we are ignorant about what is really going on. We may not realize that there is seeing- consciousness which experiences only what appears through the eyesense, visible object, and that there are other types of cittas which pay attention to shape and form and cling to concepts, ideas of persons and things which seem to last. We should not try to avoid thinking of concepts, they belong to daily life. We could not perform our tasks without thinking of concepts. However, when right understanding is being developed one comes to know that there is not a "self" who sees, recognizes, likes or dislikes. These are different moments of cittas which change all the time. ******* Nina. #72923 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 2, 2007 7:13 am Subject: Perfections N, no 42 (the end). nilovg Dear friends, We read in the "Gradual Sayings" (Book of the Sixes, Ch III, par. 5) that the Buddha spoke to the monks about six recollections, six states of everminding. We read about the first one: Herein, monks, the ariyan disciple ever minds the Tathãgata: "He is the Exalted One.. ." Monks, what time the ariyan disciple minds the Tathagata, his heart is not lust-obsessed, nor hate- obsessed, nor obsessed by infatuation; upright in heart is he at that time, moved free, raised from greed; and this greed, monks, is a name for the fivefold sensuous pleasures. Verily, monks, by making this thought their object, some men thereby are purged. Ariyans have an unwavering confidence in the Buddha, because they have discovered the reason why the Buddha had become en-lightened: he had developed all the perfections and he had, through right understanding, realized the true nature of all realities appearing at the present moment. The ariyans proved for themselves that by following the Path the Buddha taught they could reach the goal. We may say that the perfections must be developed together with right understanding, in our daily life, but are we doers of the teachings? We need to develop all the perfections, and if one of them is lacking we cannot reach the goal. Whenever there is an opportunity for generosity we should use it in order to be less selfish. We need to develop sila, wholesomeness in action and speech, without an idea of self who could suppress akusala. We should remember that in sila is also included mindfulness of whatever appears through the six doors. We need the perfection of renunciation, renunciation from selfish clinging to sense pleasures. We should remember that all kusala dhammas are renunciation. We need to develop the perfection of wisdom, comprising wisdom of different levels: understanding based on listening and considering and direct understanding of realities. We need the perfection of energy so that we will not become discouraged but continue on the way, no matter what will happen. We need the perfection of patience, especially when we are in difficult situations or when other people are disagreeable to us. We should regard such circumstances as a test, an opportunity to accumulate patience. We need truthfulness to investigate all realities of our daily life, our defilements included. The perfection of truthfulness is the sincere inclination to follow the way leading to the eradication of defilements. We need determination to develop all the perfections so that eventually enlightenment can be attained. We need the perfection of mettã, so that we think more of the welfare of other people and cling less to the importance of self. We need the perfection of equanimity to face the worldly conditions without being disturbed by them. Satipatthana should be developed together with all the perfections. This will help us to reduce the clinging to an idea of self who has to develop the perfections. All the perfections support the growth of right understanding so that it can eventually perform the function of detachment from all conditioned realities. It is thanks to the Buddha that we can begin to develop right understanding of the realities of daily life. We can learn to be aware, while working in an office or doing house work, while talking or being silent, while laughing or crying. All these mo-ments can be known as they are. One moment of right mindfulness is very effective, because it is a condition that there can be mindfulness again and thus right understanding can grow. If there can be mindfulness now, it is thanks to the Buddha's teaching. Iti'pi So Bhagava Araham, SammasamBuddho (the end) ******* Nina. #72924 From: "Larry" Date: Sat Jun 2, 2007 7:25 am Subject: Re: Taking a sign lbidd2 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > > Hi anybody, > > if anybody (that means you!!) would like to offer their opinion, I > (that means me) would be most pleased to hear the significance of > "taking a sign" in the following: > > > > 3. Tapussasuttam The householder Tapassu > > 012.03. Bhikkhus, the householder Tapassu endowed with six things and > taking a sign from the Thus Gone One has seen deathlessness realized > the highest and behaves. What six? > > Unwavering faith, in The Blessed One, in the Teaching, in the > Community of bhikkhus, in the noble one's virtues, in the noble one's > knowledge and the noble one's release. Hi Herman, Maybe 8 handfuls of hair: "The Anguttara Commentary (AA.i.207f) says that the deity, who caused Tapassu and Bhalluka to give alms to the Buddha, was their mother in their previous birth. The Buddha gave them, for worship, eight handfuls of his hair, which he obtained by stroking his head. They took the hair with them to their city - which, according to this account, was Asitañjana - and there built a cetiya, from which rays of blue light issued on fast-days. Tapassu is called a dvev?cikaup?saka (AA.ii.696), and is included in a list of eminent up?sakas. A.iii.450. The Sanskrit books call him Trapusa (Dvy. 393; Mtu.iii.303.) Larry #72925 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Jun 2, 2007 7:36 am Subject: Re: Taking a sign scottduncan2 Dear Herman, H: "if anybody (that means you!!)..." Scott: Me? H: "...would like to offer their opinion, I (that means me) would be most pleased to hear the significance of "taking a sign" in the following: 3. Tapussasuttam The householder Tapassu 012.03. Bhikkhus, the householder Tapassu endowed with six things and taking a sign from the Thus Gone One has seen deathlessness realized the highest and behaves. What six? Unwavering faith, in The Blessed One, in the Teaching, in the Community of bhikkhus, in the noble one's virtues, in the noble one's knowledge and the noble one's release. Bhikkhus, the householder Tapassu endowed with these six things and taking a sign from the Thus Gone One has seen deathlessness realized the highest and behaves..." Scott: First, the Pa.li: (Tapussa sutta.m) (Saavatthinidaana.m) Chahi bhikkhave dhammehi samannaagato tapusso. Gahapati tathaagate ni.t.tha.mgato amataddaso amata.m sacchikatvaa iriiyati. Katamehi chahi: Buddhe aveccappasaadena, dhamme aveccappasaadena, sa"ngheaveccappasaadena, ariyena siilena, ariyena ~naa.nena, ariyaaya vimuttiyaa. Imehi kho bhikkhave chahi dhammehi samannaagato tapusso gahapati tathaagate ni.t.tha.m gato amataddaso amata.m sacchikatvaa iriiyatiiti. Scott: I'd say the operative word is 'tathaagate' (correction from real Pa.li scholars required). PTS PED: "Tathaa (adv.)...so, thus (and not otherwise, opp. aññathÄ?), in this way, likewise..." "Gacchati 1. to go, to be in motion, to move, to go on... 2. to go, to walk... 3. to go away, to go out, to go forth... 4. with acc. or substitute: to go to, to have access to, to arrive or get at (with the aim of the movement or the object of the intention); hence fig. to come to know, to experience, to realize... 5. to go as a stronger expression for to be, i. e. to behave, to have existence, to fare..." Scott: I don't know why the translator chose to use 'taking a sign'. The sense seems to be closer to, 'in the same way as'. A Buddha teaches the Way. And this is where the term 'sacchikatvaa' comes in, I think. This is from 'sacchikaroti'. This is, (PTS PED): "Sacchikaroti...to see with one's eyes, to realize, to experience for oneself..." Sincerely, Scott. #72926 From: "Larry" Date: Sat Jun 2, 2007 7:42 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Clinging to kusala.....? lbidd2 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Larry, > nama is more subtle, it has no shape, no form. It depends on > conditions what appears to sati more often, no rule. > Nina. Hi Nina, I agree. We can distinguish nama and rupa beginning with nama but sooner or later we have to get to rupa. I guess volitional formations are no more difficult to recognize than feeling. Larry #72927 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Jun 2, 2007 7:41 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sammaadi.t.thi study corner scottduncan2 Dear Nina, Thank you for: N: "Comment to B.B. note:I take it that mundane right view is much more than conceptual understanding, because as Kh Sujin said, we have to relate the four noble Truths to the present moment. The first round has to be quite firm. The considering has to be of the present moment. There is already a beginning of awareness, how otherwise could there be a firm understanding of: this is the right Path, not moving away to something other but the present object. Not doing other things first, but awareness now." Scott: I'm thinking that sati and pa~n~naa must be involved, hence 'much more than conceptual understanding'. Would it fair to suggest that the development of sati and pa~n~naa would condition a certain 'correct' conceptual understanding in conformity to their development? Sincerely, Scott. #72928 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 2, 2007 11:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sammaadi.t.thi study corner nilovg Dear Scott, There would be a mutual conditioning between correct intellectual (I prefer intellectual) understanding and a beginning awareness of nama and rupa. Kh Sujin also said: when arrived at kicca ~naa.na (the pa.tipatti), one does not discard sacca ~naa.na, nor does one discard it when arrived at kata ~naa.na. The simile of a spiral was used. We learn about citta and cetasika, for example. But when we begin to be aware we come to have a clearer understanding of what they are. Meanwhile we keep on learning more details about akusala cetasikas and sobhana cetasikas, and later on, when insight has progressed and we truly know the nature of nama, what we learnt before gains evermore meaning to us. So, it is a lifelong process. When there can be direct understanding we can verify that what is realized is in conformity with what we first learnt from books. The object of intellectual understanding and of satisampaja~n~na is the same, but understanding itself grows, becomes keener. I noticed you analysed pa.tipatti. In Thai a special meaning was given, as I wrote before. Patti: arrived at. pa.ti: in particular. you reach in particular the characteristics of nama and rupa. I think Jon can explain this more, I remember we talked about this in India. Practice certainly does not mean: to do something, as some people believe. Nina. Op 2-jun-2007, om 16:41 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: > Would it fair to suggest > that the development of sati and pa~n~naa would condition a certain > 'correct' conceptual understanding in conformity to their development? #72929 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 2, 2007 11:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Clinging to kusala.....? nilovg Hi Larry, Recognizing may not be difficult, a child can. But understanding them as types of nama, not mine, that is difficult. Some people are more inclined to be aware first of rupa, such as hardness, but in the end the all has to be known, all nama and rupa, and who says it is easy? Dhamma is difficult, subtle, hard to understand. Because of our ignorance nothing is easy and we have to hear what dhamma is again and again. Nina. Op 2-jun-2007, om 16:42 heeft Larry het volgende geschreven: > We can distinguish nama and rupa beginning with nama but sooner or > later we have > to get to rupa. I guess volitional formations are no more difficult > to recognize than feeling. #72930 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 2, 2007 12:01 pm Subject: clinging to kusala? nilovg Hi James, well said James: James: Feelings are automatic. Everything that we experience through the six doorways results automatically in a feeling. This cannot be stopped (in the non-arahant). The three feelings are pleasure, displeasure, and neutral (not to be confused with equanimity).... Feeling is automatic so it can't be turned on and off like a light switch. ------- N: Well said. Now you are beginning to see that feelings are beyond control, which is another word for anatta. You express this with the word automatic, and it is as it were automatic. Only there are conditions for each feeling to pop up, but often these conditions are hidden to us. Now take another step: it is not only feeling, but also kusala, akusala, any reality. They are as it were automatic. As soon as you taste your favorite dish, you cannot help liking it. It is not only the feeling that pops up, also the citta, because feeling always accompanies citta, it never arises alone. --------- J: Kusala and Akusala, however, can be controlled through Dhamma practice. Through the Eightfold Path, unwholesome mental states can be suppressed more and more until they are completely eliminated. ------- N:That is correct: wise attention is the condition for kusala, but even this wise attention is conditioned by many factors, some stemming from the past, some from the present time, such as association with the wise. -------- J: Equanimity is only possible in rare instances when the mind has been highly purified through meditation. Equanimity is not possible during everyday life, for most of us who are non-arahants. ------- N: There is equanimity, tatramajjhattata, with each kusala citta, but there are many degrees. When you are truly generous, you are impartial in your giving, and that is an aspect of equanimity; staying in the middle. When you observe siila you are not concerned about your own comfort or pleasure: there is equanimity. Through satipatthana you learn to see the world as nama and rupa, and then you will mind less about the eight worldly condiitons of praise and blame, etc. I should keep it short, but nice talking to you. Nina. #72931 From: "Larry" Date: Sat Jun 2, 2007 12:13 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Clinging to kusala.....? lbidd2 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Larry, > Recognizing may not be difficult, a child can. But understanding them > as types of nama, not mine, that is difficult. > Some people are more inclined to be aware first of rupa, such as > hardness, but in the end the all has to be known, all nama and rupa, > and who says it is easy? > Dhamma is difficult, subtle, hard to understand. Because of our > ignorance nothing is easy and we have to hear what dhamma is again > and again. > Nina. > Hi Nina, Understanding is not so difficult either. It just happens. There's no skill. Recognizing does come first, though. "Strong sa~n~naa" is the proximate cause of sati. It's a good basis for abhidhamma in daily life. I'm not so sure knowing everything is necessary. That may be reserved for certain 'types'. Larry #72932 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Jun 2, 2007 2:47 pm Subject: Re: Clinging to kusala.....? buddhatrue Hi Larry, \Thanks for writing. I rarely get a post from you, so I consider this a treat! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@... wrote: > > Hi James and Phil, > > James: "What KS is advocating, at least as much as I can tell, is that > we should all cultivate equanimity..." > > Larry: I thought she was advocating satipatthana, experiencing the > reality of whatever, kusala or akusala. Granted, that will arise with > neutral feeling. Or it could arise with pleasant feeling. Sati with > pleasant feeling with unpleasant feeling as object is even possible. James: I just read the short passage that Phil quoted to me, I didn't read the conversation with KS that Sarah posted (as soon as I saw what it was I skipped it immediately ;-)). I don't want to get into another long debate about what KS means or doesn't mean- I don't really see the point, nowadays. It is a waste of my energy. If KS joins this group and posts about the Dhamma, then I will discuss in detail her viewpoint, otherwise it isn't very productive. > > It seems to me the root cetasikas, either kusala or akusala, are > actually quite subtle and hard to recognize. What we usually gasp is the > concept of kusala or akusala. James: Sorry, but I am not exactly sure what you mean by "root cetasikas" (as in the most subtle occurrence or any occurrence); "hard to recognize" and "grasp" (the first implies a superficial recognition and the second implies a deep understanding); and I'm not sure what you mean by the "concept of kusala/akusala" (do you mean while it is occurring, immediately after, or in general?). There are many subjects worth pursuing which you packed into these two brief sentences. Perhaps you might care to elucidate further? For example, as we were recently discussing, when Robert was standing in line at the bakery and he experienced impatience, he recognized it as an akusala mind state, so conditioned thinking about the bodhisattva as a skillful means, which conditioned that akusala mind state to be replaced by a skillful mind state. If Robert had been unaware that impatience is akusala, the impatience would have continued and continued until it grew into full-blown anger. I think you are referring to the point when Robert recognized the impatience as akusala? Maybe you can say a drop more on this? > > But I think the reality of feeling is easy to recognize and experience > as it is. I know Nina wont agree but I think rupa is fairly easy to > grok. You have to separate it from conceptual identity, but even when we > don't it's still fairly obvious. James: Wow, here is another brief statement packed with meaning! You see feeling as "easy to recognize and experience as it is", and I guess this is as opposed to kusala/akusala which isn't as easy? You write, "I think rupa is fairly easy to grok" – what is "grok"? Is that a typo for "grasp"? If so, how is rupa related to feeling in the sense of which is easier to grasp? (and grasp in what sense?) Okay, the last sentence raises all sorts of questions also… Maybe you could say a drop more on this as well? > > Larry > Metta, James #72933 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Jun 2, 2007 3:12 pm Subject: Re: clinging to kusala? buddhatrue Hi Nina, I will reply to this post this morning, but your other post about "withdrawn from sensual pleasures" will have to wait until Monday when I go to school...as my copy of the Vism. is at school. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > N: Well said. Now you are beginning to see that feelings are beyond > control, which is another word for anatta. James: Thank you. I thought that I was aware of this before but maybe I never expressed my understanding to you in a way which you understood. You express this with the > word automatic, and it is as it were automatic. Only there are > conditions for each feeling to pop up, but often these conditions are > hidden to us. James: Yes, I am aware that many conditions are at play in this process. I'm not sure I would agree with the phrase "hidden to us"; I think that we just don't have the ability to see them. The Buddha, with his omniscience, could see and know all conditions. > Now take another step: it is not only feeling, but also kusala, > akusala, any reality. James: Here is where I disagree with you. I don't like the word "control" because it has many different meanings. But if you are claiming that kusala and akusala are 'beyond the sphere of influence' then I would have to disagree. That would be determinism and would make Buddhism useless. If that is the case, we may as well be discussing the latest Spiderman movie! ;-)) > N: There is equanimity, tatramajjhattata, with each kusala citta, but > there are many degrees. > When you are truly generous, you are impartial in your giving, and > that is an aspect of equanimity; staying in the middle. When you > observe siila you are not concerned about your own comfort or > pleasure: there is equanimity. James: I don't agree with your general use of the word "equanimity". You muddy its meaning if you apply it to so many things. Equanimity is a specific mental state of a very high and refined nature. Equanimity is one of the brahma-viharas. Anything less than that isn't equanimity, its 'pseudo-equanimity' (only appears on the outside to be equanimity). Through satipatthana you learn to see > the world as nama and rupa, and then you will mind less about the > eight worldly condiitons of praise and blame, etc. > I should keep it short, but nice talking to you. James: Thank you, nice talking to you also. Take it easy. Over and out. ;-)) > Nina. > Metta, James #72934 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Jun 2, 2007 4:01 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Clinging to kusala.....? lbidd2 Hi James, J: "what is "grok"?" L: That's hippie lingo for apperceive, experientially understand. I kind of went off on a tangent from what you guys were discussing. But I thought more about equanimity. I was taking it for neutral feeling but really it is alobha, non-desire, the opposite of desire. As for impatience regarding baked goods, I can fully sympathize. I agree it is good to recognize impatience as impatience. We could also recognize that the object of desire is a sweetness rupa. Larry ----------------- James: "...For example, as we were recently discussing, when Robert was standing in line at the bakery and he experienced impatience, he recognized it as an akusala mind state, so conditioned thinking about the bodhisattva as a skillful means, which conditioned that akusala mind state to be replaced by a skillful mind state." #72935 From: "sukinder" Date: Sun Jun 3, 2007 3:44 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Q. re: Jhana as necessity to enlightenment sukinderpal Hi Nina (Howard, James and Ken H), ------ N: I could not find this annotation, SN 45.8. it is standard for many suttas, right. Even B.B. does not conclude: everyone, even the person who will be arahat, has to attain jhana. He leaves the matter open. I should add: he does not take into account the Abhidhamma, Puggala pa~n~natti which is very clear. And nobody wants to answer me as to this. ---------- Sukin: When Sarah first posted this article by B.B., I made a passing comment to the effect that I saw no sense in trying to determine this point about whether jhana was necessary for Arahatta. An Anagami after all, already has perfect concentration, having no more attachments to sense objects. No one responded to it at the time, and I thought that I was perhaps missing something important. But this time the same question arises and I am unsure of where B.B. is coming from especially since you have also praised the article as being objective etc. So what is it Nina, that is the significance of jhana that I seem to be missing? To me if B.B. had argued instead that the practice prior to Sotapatti, Sakadagami and Anagami required jhana, this would make more sense in light of the above conclusion that it is only after Anagami that there is perfect concentration. Though of course in light of what I understand Satipatthana/Vipassana to be, namely the 'one way', jhana is not necessary at all.. Thanks in advance. Metta, Sukin #72936 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Jun 2, 2007 9:09 pm Subject: Re: Jhana as requisite for enlightenment - in what sense requisite? buddhatrue Hi Jon (and Howard), Let me take a crack (get it…crack ;-)) at your questions: Jon: 1. If jhana is not requisite for the development of mundane insight (but only for enlightenment), then what would be the obstacle to insight being developed further and further until all the stages of insight have been attained? In other words, at what stage, and for what reason, does further development of insight become impossible without the jhanas? James: Jhana becomes necessary for final enlightenment because the mind is addicted to sense pleasures. No matter how much wisdom one has, this addiction can't be overcome until the mind is offered an alternative. Jhana provides the mind with a pleasure not dependent on the senses. It is only when this pleasure of jhana is experienced that the mind is finally able to release its clinging to sense pleasures. The Buddha explains this in detail in MN 14. Jon: 2. Is jhana requisite in the sense that arahantship can only be attained where jhana is used as the basis for insight? Or is it sufficient that jhaana has been attained at any time in the same lifetime (and need not be used as the basis for insight)? James: Jhana could have been achieved at any time in the lifetime or previous lifetimes, as long as the kamma of that jhana has not expired, to be the basis for the attainment of enlightenment. It doesn't have to occur immediately prior to enlightenment, as it did for the Buddha. The attainment of jhana creates a very strong kamma and effect on the mind which lasts long beyond the moment of that attainment. Actually, the attainment of jhana will determine the rebirth of an individual (dependent on which jhana is attained) and that individual doesn't need to be in jhana at the moment of death for this kamma to affect the rebirth. Jon: 3. If the first jhana only is sufficient, as the passage would suggest, it seems unnecessary to go on to mention the second to fourth jhanas (or, in the case of the AN sutta you quote below, the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception). James: This is a "stock formula" found throughout the suttas where Right Concentration is defined as the four jhanas. A person could achieve just one, two, three, or all four jhanas and achieve enlightenment. The Buddha included all four so as not to leave any out. The jhanas are really just further refinements of the same type of mental absorption, not entirely different mental states. So, when the Buddha defines all four, he is really talking about one type of thing. The Vism. gives details about those arahants who achieve nibbana based on the first, second, third, fourth, and immaterial jhanas. (I'm surprised you ask this question because you and I are discussing this matter in another thread…which I will get to on Monday, BTW). Jon: Also, where do you find in the passage quoted (or elsewhere in the same sutta), words limiting the description of the NEP to the attainment of arahantship only, rather than all 4 levels of enlightenment? Does this apply to all 8 factors, or only to Right Concentration, as you read the suttas? James: The Noble Eightfold Path, when perfected, only applies to arahantship. The Buddha explains this in his first sermon when he explains the Four Noble Truths. Anything less than perfection of the Noble Eightfold Path will result in the lesser paths and fruits. The Buddha's path is a gradual training. Metta, James #72937 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sat Jun 2, 2007 9:10 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: New Series: Recollection of the Buddha rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > > . > > This reminded me of another story. A man is being nailed to a cross, > in order to induce a slow and agonising death. The people involved in > this act are mocking the man as they torture him. The man says: > Father, forgive them, for they don't know what they are doing. > > Herman > Dear Herman Yes, nice story. Robert #72938 From: "gazita2002" Date: Sun Jun 3, 2007 1:29 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Clinging to kusala.....? gazita2002 hello Nina, I understand that you have recently injured yourself. I do hope you are now well. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Larry, > Recognizing may not be difficult, a child can. But understanding them > as types of nama, not mine, that is difficult. > Some people are more inclined to be aware first of rupa, such as > hardness, but in the end the all has to be known, all nama and rupa, > and who says it is easy? azita: so all nama and rupa must be known as in, experienced by citta? is it possible for anyone other than a Buddha to know all namas and rupas? I recall some discussion about the 3 rounds; does this mean something like pariyatti, patipatti, pativedha; or does it mean saccan~n~a, kiccan~n~a ....if this is too vague a question please ignore. patience, courage and good cheer, azita #72939 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jun 3, 2007 1:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Clinging to kusala.....? nilovg Hi Larry, Understanding only arises when there are the right conditions: listening, considering, applying what one heard. We cannot say: it just happens. Strong sa~n~naa: remembrance of what one has heard and studied. Instead of recognizing dhammas I would say: understanding. This understanding performs its function. It is not enough to say: O, I recognize dosa. It is still your dosa. Knowing whatever appears. Not everything, also arahats were different as to the amount of understanding. Nina. Op 2-jun-2007, om 21:13 heeft Larry het volgende geschreven: > Understanding is not so difficult either. It just happens. There's > no skill. Recognizing does > come first, though. "Strong sa~n~naa" is the proximate cause of > sati. It's a good basis for > abhidhamma in daily life. I'm not so sure knowing everything is > necessary. That may be > reserved for certain 'types'. #72940 From: "gazita2002" Date: Sun Jun 3, 2007 1:45 am Subject: Re: Taking a sign gazita2002 hello Herman, I kinda feel obliged to answer this given your opening comments :-)) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > > Hi anybody, > > if anybody (that means you!!) would like to offer their opinion, I > (that means me) would be most pleased to hear the significance of > "taking a sign" in the following: > > > > 3. Tapussasuttam The householder Tapassu > > 012.03. Bhikkhus, the householder Tapassu endowed with six things and > taking a sign from the Thus Gone One has seen deathlessness realized > the highest and behaves. What six? > > Unwavering faith, in The Blessed One, in the Teaching, in the > Community of bhikkhus, in the noble one's virtues, in the noble one's > knowledge and the noble one's release. azita: I dont know any pali, but I think it means that he understands with pure knowledge, the Buddhas teachings. I wonder what is meant by 'behaves'? Paatience, courage and good cheer, azita #72941 From: "gazita2002" Date: Sun Jun 3, 2007 2:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddha's relic and curiosity. gazita2002 Hello Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > > Hi Nina ......... > >Jus following accumulations, doing things naturally. > > Satipatthana in daily life for a layperson does not mean not > > following after pleasant objects. Our natural inclinations have to > be > > known for what they are, they are conditioned already. > > This sounds like the old house sagging to me, Nina! Let's rouse our > energy for kusala. azita: and how is this done, Phil? and this is a serious question. often in daily life, I notice there is little kusala and when opportunities arise eg to give away something I'm attached to, I feel a great reluctance to give and then beat myself over the head for not being more generous. the akusala just seems to flow like a river. We don't need to drift along on the same route that > are conditioned already. No, no. Music is fine, but if you were talking > about the kind of pleasant objects I am conditioned to pursue, it would > be very wrong. Shall I leave DSG and spend some time drifting through > pornographic sites? Pleasant objects, and that is my natural > inclination. I refuse to follow that natural inclination. "Doing things > naturally" for me is most definitely not the Buddha's path! Maybe > your "doing things naturally" is different from mine. azita: this made me LOL. Cannot imagine Nina cruising the porn sites!!! Pardon me Nina, if i'm offensive but this did make me laugh. When you say, Phil, that you refuse to follow that natural inclination, isnt that perhaps a nat. inclination to refrain? Just a thought. Patience, courage and good cheer, azita #72942 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Jun 3, 2007 12:29 am Subject: Contemplating the Buddha! bhikkhu5 Friends: The Ten Contemplations is Daily Buddhist Routine! The Blessed Buddha once said: Bhikkhus & friends: There is one contemplation which when often practised and developed leads to the complete turning away from the world, to detachment, to stilling, to ceasing, to peace, to final penetrating knowledge, to Enlightenment, and thus to NibbÄ?na ... Any Noble Disciple who by progress have understood the Dhamma dwells frequently in this state. Which is that one contemplation? It is reflecting over the qualities of the Buddha exactly like this: Worthy, honourable & perfectly self-Enlightened is the Buddha! Consummated in knowledge and behaviour, totally transcended, expert in all dimensions, knower of all worlds, unsurpassable trainer of those who can be tamed, both teacher & guide of gods as well as of humans, blessed, exalted, awakened, & enlightened is the Buddha! Source: AN 1:16.1 + 6:10 More on the Deathless Dimension: NibbÄ?na: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/Peace.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Nibbana_Still.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/The_2_Nibbanas.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/The_Deathless_Dimension.htm Contemplating the Qualities of the Buddha! Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Ceylon * <....> #72943 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jun 3, 2007 3:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sammaadi.t.thi study corner jonoabb Hi Scott Thanks very much for your comments. Scott Duncan wrote: > Dear Jon, > > Thanks for your reply: > > J: "...As I recall, the original point relating to mundane > insight/panna arose because most of the references found in the suttas > seem to be to supramundane insight. However, as Nina pointed out in a > recent post to Phil: Satipatthana according to its [the Satipatthana > Sutta's] co is described as mundane. There has to be a mundane Path > before the lokuttara Path can be reached. All the teachings point to > this." > > Scott: I see this as being about the development (bhaavanaa) of > pa~n~naa and about object. Please critique this argument: > > Mundane insight, while a function of pa~n~naa, has conditioned dhammas > as object and is condition for thinking and conceptualising. I guess > there can be 'right thinking and conceptualising'. Supramundane > insight is so designated because it has Nibbaana as object. > My understanding is as follows: 1. 'Supramundane insight', generally speaking, refers to the panna that accompanies a moment of path consciousness which, as you know, has nibbana as its object. (But nibbana may be the object of cittas other than path consciousness, in the case of the anagami and the arahant with certain attainments, so supramundane insight cannot be defined purely by reference to the object.) 2. 'Mundane insight' refers to panna of the level that sees as it really is (i.e., sees the true nature of) a presently arisen dhamma. It is this insight that, when developed sufficiently, leads to enlightenment. 3. There is also panna that thinks or reflects correctly on aspects of the true nature of dhammas. I believe that, under the 3-fold classification of dana, sila, bhavana (samatha and vipassana), this panna would be classified as samatha, namely, reflection on the teachings. But in any event, it is not insight as such. > > J: "...Similarly, in M.117 which was being discussed earlier, where > right view (panna) is given as twofold, namely, > (a) affected by taints, partaking of merit, ripening on the side of > attachments, and > (b) noble, taintless, supramundane, > the second category of right view would include mundane right view of > the level of insight." > > Scott: 'Ripening on the side of attachments' would suggest to me that > this is related to conditioned dhammas, and hence 'mundane'. How do > you see 'mundane right view' as being included in the second category? > To my understanding, the division here is between panna of the level that leads out of samsara (the second category) and panna of the kind/level that does not and hence is a condition for continued existence (the first). Do you remember the simile of the bricks of the wall (from Samohavinodanni, perhaps)? As I recall, it is said there that mundane insight leads to the breaking down of the wall; all other forms of kusala to the building up of the wall. (Corrections welcome.) > Here's the BB note: > > Note 1103 (pp.1327-8): "This definition defines supramundane right > view as the wisdom (pa~n~naa) found among the aids to enlightenment as > a faculty, power, enlightenment factor, and path factor. > The reference here to faculties, powers, enlightenment factors, and path factors is in ascending order of strength. Faculties and powers are always mundane; enlightenment factors are said to be either mundane or supermundane; path factors are supermundane. > The > definition is formulated by way of cognitive function rather than > objective content of right view. > I think this means, by function (strength), rather than object, since the object of faculties, powers, mundane enlightenment factors are the same: any conditioned dhamma. > Elsewhere (MN 141.24) the right view > of the path is defined as knowledge of the Four Noble Truths. We may > understand that the conceptual comprehension of the four truths falls > under mundane right view, while the direct penetration of the truths > by realising Nibbaana with the path constitutes supramundane right view." > I don't disagree with this remark, taking BB's 'conceptual comprehension of the four truths' as being the same as my reference above to panna that thinks or reflects correctly on aspects of the true nature of dhammas. However, his 2 categories of right view do not cover the whole field, since between the conceptual comprehension of the four truths (i.e., by reflection) and path consciousness with Nibbaana as object, there is mundane insight. That's how I would see it. Any views? Jon #72944 From: "Ramesh Patil" Date: Sun Jun 3, 2007 2:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Clinging to kusala.....? rameshat27 Venerable DhammaSister Nina, "Dhamma is difficult, subtle, hard to understand. Because of our ignorance nothing is easy and we have to hear what dhamma is again and again." What u r talking is the actual truth.One of the difficult verses hard to understand and difficult to digest is bcz of people views. They r fit in there works and all material things. When they find some time to read dhamma literature at that time there mind is not completely devoted to accept the dhamma verses. To know the dhamma verses actually first thing is there is the devotion for dhamma in such a way that I must know this dhamma verses..Then second one is that the mind should be completely settled from other things..it is not the deluted one..thinking of other things..Such kind of devotion and committement actually found in very rare people..who had done the renounciation..I admire ur devotion for dhamma and the service u r providing here on this variuos group is really appreciated.. Actually I am also the one from dhamma devotee but I have to work here for my servival and then find some time to read the dhamma material and write some literature on it..but I also continuosly do the research on any dhamma sutta, by varifying it on variuos levels and seeing it as objectively..Research is my interesting field and by profession I am s/w engg. But the people who spend there life 30 years in only dhamma service found that this much time also is not sufficient to get the things...from them..it comes to how much is the fathom of dhamma verses...and how much is the depth of it. The dhamma devoted people who understand dhamma verses then they try it to understand the things on there own experience level...They tried hard uptill the end of there life still they found this life is also insufficient to know all the things... With Metta Ramesh Patil Mumbai, India On 6/3/07, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Larry, > Recognizing may not be difficult, a child can. But understanding them > as types of nama, not mine, that is difficult. > Some people are more inclined to be aware first of rupa, such as > hardness, but in the end the all has to be known, all nama and rupa, > and who says it is easy? > Dhamma is difficult, subtle, hard to understand. Because of our > ignorance nothing is easy and we have to hear what dhamma is again > and again. <.....> #72945 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jun 3, 2007 1:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. re: Jhana as necessity to enlightenment upasaka_howard Hi, Sukin (and all) - In a message dated 6/2/07 11:54:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time, sukinder@... writes: > Hi Nina (Howard, James and Ken H), > > > > ------ > N: I could not find this annotation, SN 45.8. it is standard for many > suttas, right. > Even B.B. does not conclude: everyone, even the person who will be > arahat, has to attain jhana. He leaves the matter open. I should add: > he does not take into account the Abhidhamma, Puggala pa~n~natti > which is very clear. And nobody wants to answer me as to this. > ---------- > Sukin: When Sarah first posted this article by B.B., I made a passing > comment to the effect that I saw no sense in trying to determine this point > about whether jhana was necessary for Arahatta. An Anagami after all, > already has perfect concentration, having no more attachments to sense > objects. No one responded to it at the time, and I thought that I was > perhaps missing something important. But this time the same question arises > and I am unsure of where B.B. is coming from especially since you have also > praised the article as being objective etc. > > > > So what is it Nina, that is the significance of jhana that I seem to be > missing? To me if B.B. had argued instead that the practice prior to > Sotapatti, Sakadagami and Anagami required jhana, this would make more sense > in light of the above conclusion that it is only after Anagami that there is > perfect concentration. Though of course in light of what I understand > Satipatthana/Vipassana to be, namely the 'one way', jhana is not necessary > at all.. > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > Metta, > > Sukin > ======================== This matter isn't critical to me. In fact, if mastering jhanas is not requisite even for for arahantship, so much the better, for that makes matters much easier for me and all of us. However, it seems clear to me that is *is* requisite just on the basis of "right concentration" being requisite, and it having been defined by the Buddha as the jhanas. When I add to that the unusual emphsis the Buddha put on the jhanas throughout the suttas, I am convinced of the need for jhanas - not necessarily *now*, but at some point for sure. With metta, Howard #72946 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jun 3, 2007 5:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sammaadi.t.thi study corner jonoabb Hi Scott (and Nina) Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Scott, > ... > I noticed you analysed pa.tipatti. In Thai a special meaning was > given, as I wrote before. Patti: arrived at. pa.ti: in particular. > you reach in particular the characteristics of nama and rupa. I think > Jon can explain this more, ... > Not really. Just that the literal meaning of the 2 words is 'reach'/'arrive at' and 'particular', thus giving the meaning of reaching the particular, i.e. the particular characteristic of the dhamma that is object. Jon #72947 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jun 3, 2007 6:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sammaadi.t.thi study corner jonoabb Hi again Scott A quick clarification/correction on something I wrote in my earlier post. Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi Scott > > ... > > Do you remember the simile of the bricks of the wall (from > Samohavinodanni, perhaps)? As I recall, it is said there that mundane > insight leads to the breaking down of the wall; all other forms of > kusala to the building up of the wall. (Corrections welcome.) > Sarah reminds me that it's the Atthasalini ('Expositor'). Here is the text as quoted in a post of Connie's (thanks, Connie): from the Expositor: << In the triplet of 'leading to accumulation,' 'accumulation' means 'that which is accumulated by kamma and corruptions. It is a name for the processes of rebirth and decease. 'Leading to accumulation' are 'those causes which by being accomplished go to, or lead a man, in whom they arise, to that round of rebirth.' It is a name for co-intoxicant moral or immoral states. Nibbaana being free from 'cumulation,' which is another word for 'accumulation,' is called 'dispersion'. 'Leading to dispersion' is 'going towards that dispersion which he has made his object.' It is a name for the Ariyan Paths. Or, 'leading to accumulation' are 'those states which go about severally arranging (births and deaths in) a round of destiny like a bricklayer who arranges bricks, layer by layer, in a wall.' 'Leading to dispersion' are those states which go about destroying that very round, like a man who continually removes the bricks as they are laid by the mason. The third term is spoken by way of rejecting both. >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/54151 Jon #72948 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jun 3, 2007 2:43 am Subject: Another Sutta, Another Perspective upasaka_howard Hi, all - Another sutta, AN 4.41, describes "the four developments of concentration".The first of these is the 4 jhanas,and they are described as leading to "a pleasant abiding in the here and now." The fourth, however, would appear to be "right concentration," and with regard to that the Buddha says the following: "And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents? There is the case where a monk remains focused on arising & falling away with reference to the five clinging-aggregates: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is feeling, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is perception, such its origination, such its passing away. Such are fabrications, such their origination, such their passing away. Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents." Thus, we have two different suttas, and they are NOT compatible. Now, what do we do? Pick and choose? Go for whichever makes us "happiest"? Each of these suttas is apparently the word of the Buddha, and they are not compatible. This strikes me asa problem, folks. Oh, I know, some will say to accept the commentators' view. But whatever their view may be, that does not erase the discrepancy between these two suttas. I have one thought: Perhaps the 4th development of concentration has the first as foundation. The Buddha in leading up to his awakening, did, from the base of the 4th jhana, direct his attention to a variety of phenomena culminating in awareness of the ending of the effluents. So that is possible. Howev er, there is no indication of this in AN 4.41 itself. With metta, Howard #72949 From: "Larry" Date: Sun Jun 3, 2007 7:10 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Clinging to kusala.....? lbidd2 Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Larry, > Understanding only arises when there are the right conditions: > listening, considering, applying what one heard. We cannot say: it > just happens. L: Okay, but it isn't quite right to say understanding is difficult. "Difficulty" implies control. > Strong sa~n~naa: remembrance of what one has heard and studied. > Instead of recognizing dhammas I would say: understanding. This > understanding performs its function. It is not enough to say: O, I > recognize dosa. It is still your dosa. L: I think strong perception is clear recognition. The "I" of "I recognize" is extra, conceit and clinging. We could recognize that too. Larry #72950 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jun 3, 2007 7:50 am Subject: Condiitons, Ch 2, no 7. nilovg Dear friends, One will come to know when visible object is the object of citta and when a concept. A concept does not have a characteristic which can be directly experienced. When we think of a person, we think of a “whole” which seems to last, but what we take for a person consists of many different elements which arise and fall away. Hardness may appear when we touch what we call a person. Hardness is an ultimate reality with its own unchangeable characteristic. Hardness is always hardness, it can be directly experienced. We can denote it with different names, but its characteristic remains the same. We cannot avoid thinking of “people”, that would be unnatural, but we should know that at some moments an ultimate reality such as hardness is experienced, and at other moments there is thinking of a concept. The thinking itself is an ultimate reality with its own characteristic, and it can be known as it is: a conditioned reality which is not self. The arahat thinks about concepts but he does not cling, he thinks with kiriyacitta. When we experience a pleasant object, attachment tends to arise, and when we experience an unpleasant object, aversion tends to arise. These objects condition akusala cittas by way of object-condition. We may believe that a particular object is necessarily a condition for akusala citta, but we may forget that there are other conditions as well which play their part. When an object presents itself there can be wise attention or unwise attention to it; there is wise attention to the object if kusala javana-cittas arise, and there is unwise attention if akusala javana-cittas arise. We read in the “Discourse on all the Cankers” (Middle Length Sayings I, no. 2 [1]) that the Buddha, while he was staying near Såvatthí, in the Jeta Grove, spoke to the monks about the controlling of all the cankers. We read: The uninstructed common man... does not know the things worthy of attention (manasikaraníye dhamme) nor those not worthy of attention (amanasikaraníye)... We read that he therefore fails to give attention to what is worthy of it and directs his attention to what is unworthy. The well- instructed disciple knows what is worthy of attention and what is not, and he acts accordingly. We read in the commentary to this sutta (Papañcasúdaní) : ...There is nothing definite in the nature of the things (or objects) themselves that makes them worthy or unworthy of attention; but there is such definiteness in the manner (åkåra) of attention. A manner of attention that provides a basis for the arising of what is unwholesome or evil (akusala), that kind of attention should not be given (to the respective object); but the kind of attention that is the basis for the arising of the good and wholesome (kusala), that manner of attention should be given. ---------- 1. I am using the translation by Ven. Nyanaponika, “The Roots of Good and Evil” I, 6. Wheel 251/ 253, B.P.S. Kandy. ******* Nina. #72951 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jun 3, 2007 7:56 am Subject: Listening to the Dhamma, Ch 1, no 1. nilovg Dear friends, for my evening reading to Lodewijk I am taking now Listening to the Dhamma. This is a report of the discussions on Buddhism which took place in December 1998, for five days in the North of Thailand. These sessions were organized by the Dhamma Study and Propagation Foundation, an association formed by lay people in Thailand, with the aim of encouraging the study of Buddhism according to the Påli Scriptures. ------------ Chapter 1 The Value of Listening. The value of listening to the Dhamma was one of the main themes of our Dhamma sessions in the North of Thailand. We had heard before about the benefit of listening, but this time we gained more confidence in its value. The Buddha, during his past lives as a Bodhisatta, listened to former Buddhas and considered what they taught. In his last life he penetrated the true nature of all that is real and attained Buddhahood. He taught the truth to his disciples who listened to him, who developed understanding of what is real and attained enlightenment. Today we can still listen to the Dhamma. The Dhamma is subtle, difficult to grasp, and therefore we have to listen again and again, we have to consider carefully each word of the teachings. By listening we learn what we did not know before, we learn what is true in the ultimate sense and what is true merely in conventional sense. Before we listened to the Buddha’s teachings we took it for granted that there are people, that there is “my body”, “my mind”, but what we take for a person or self are only mental phenomena, nåma, and physical phenomena, rúpa, which are impermanent and not self. A person is real in conventional sense, but nåma and rúpa are real in the ultimate sense. It is difficult to accept that there is no self, but the truth can be verified by developing understanding of nåma and rúpa, the realities in and around ourselves. We have to listen a great deal, investigate what we hear, and ponder over it, so that ignorance of nåma and rúpa can be eliminated. The goal of listening to the Dhamma is detachment from the idea of self. We read in the “Kindred Sayings” (IV, Salåyatana Vagga, Kindred Saying on Sense, Second Fifty, Ch 2, 69, Upasena): -------- 1. Upasena was Saariputta's younger brother. The commentary, the Saaratthappakaasinii, states thatUpasena was sitting in the shadow of the grotto, mending his outer robe. Two young snakes were playing in the tendrils overhanging the cave, and then one fell on his shoulder and bit him. The venom spread rapidly through his body. ****** Nina. #72952 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sun Jun 3, 2007 4:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Condiitons, Ch 2, no 7. TGrand458@... In a message dated 6/3/2007 8:57:15 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hardness may appear when we touch what we call a person. Hardness is an ultimate reality with its own unchangeable characteristic. Hardness is always hardness, it can be directly experienced. Dear Friends You'll never find this type of view or view-mongering in the Suttas. Why is it not in the Suttas? Because its not the Buddha's teaching. Period. Its just a lot of hooey that's been hammered out by reasoning and views by folks long after the Buddha's time. While the majority of Nina's post is good and in reasonable accordance with the Suttas...her teachings are presented with the above aspect as the "heart of the matter" ... when in fact it is virtually an irrelevant and mistaken view that's been parasitically attached to the Buddha's teaching. The proof of my opinion is the fact that the Buddha failed to teach such a thing...i.e., it does not appear in the Suttas. How did the Buddha miss such an important point ??? Well, I usually ignore these types of posts and will try to go back into ignore mode for those of you who enjoy such scenarios. TG #72953 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jun 3, 2007 5:42 am Subject: From MN 36: The Buddha's Awakening upasaka_howard Hi, all - I present the following for what I think is worthwhile rereading. With metta, Howard " ... Could there be another path to Awakening? I thought: 'I recall once, when my father the Sakyan was working, and I was sitting in the cool shade of a rose-apple tree, then — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities — I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. Could that be the path to Awakening?' Then, following on that memory, came the realization: 'That is the path to Awakening.' [Clear, huh? "That is the path to awakening" - - Howard] I thought: 'So why am I afraid of that pleasure that has nothing to do with sensuality, nothing to do with unskillful mental qualities?' [Note also that: nothing to fear in jhana! - - Howard] I thought: 'I am no longer afraid of that pleasure that has nothing to do with sensuality, nothing to do with unskillful mental qualities, but it is not easy to achieve that pleasure with a body so extremely emaciated. Suppose I were to take some solid food: some rice & porridge.' So I took some solid food: some rice & porridge. Now five monks had been attending on me, thinking, 'If Gotama, our contemplative, achieves some higher state, he will tell us.' But when they saw me taking some solid food — some rice & porridge — they were disgusted and left me, thinking, 'Gotama the contemplative is living luxuriously. He has abandoned his exertion and is backsliding into abundance.' "So when I had taken solid food and regained strength, then — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. But the pleasant feeling that arose in this way did not invade my mind or remain. With the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, I entered & remained in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. But the pleasant feeling that arose in this way did not invade my mind or remain. With the fading of rapture I remained in equanimity, mindful & alert, and physically sensitive of pleasure. I entered & remained in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' But the pleasant feeling that arose in this way did not invade my mind or remain. With the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — I entered & remained in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. But the pleasant feeling that arose in this way did not invade my mind or remain. "When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of recollecting my past lives. I recollected my manifold past lives, i.e., one birth, two... five, ten... fifty, a hundred, a thousand, a hundred thousand, many eons of cosmic contraction, many eons of cosmic expansion, many eons of cosmic contraction & expansion: 'There I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose there. There too I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose here.' Thus I remembered my manifold past lives in their modes & details."This was the first knowledge I attained in the first watch of the night. Ignorance was destroyed; knowledge arose; darkness was destroyed; light arose — as happens in one who is heedful, ardent, & resolute. But the pleasant feeling that arose in this way did not invade my mind or remain. "When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of the passing away & reappearance of beings. I saw — by means of the divine eye, purified & surpassing the human — beings passing away & re-appearing, and I discerned how they are inferior & superior, beautiful & ugly, fortunate & unfortunate in accordance with their kamma: 'These beings — who were endowed with bad conduct of body, speech, & mind, who reviled the noble ones, held wrong views and undertook actions under the influence of wrong views — with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, in hell. But these beings — who were endowed with good conduct of body, speech & mind, who did not revile the noble ones, who held right views and undertook actions under the influence of right views — with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the good destinations, in the heavenly world.' Thus — by means of the divine eye, purified & surpassing the human — I saw beings passing away & re-appearing, and I discerned how they are inferior & superior, beautiful & ugly, fortunate & unfortunate in accordance with their kamma. "This was the second knowledge I attained in the second watch of the night. Ignorance was destroyed; knowledge arose; darkness was destroyed; light arose — as happens in one who is heedful, ardent, & resolute. But the pleasant feeling that arose in this way did not invade my mind or remain. "When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of the ending of the mental fermentations. I discerned, as it was actually present, that 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress... These are fermentations... This is the origination of fermentations... This is the cessation of fermentations... This is the way leading to the cessation of fermentations.' My heart, thus knowing, thus seeing, was released from the fermentation of sensuality, released from the fermentation of becoming, released from the fermentation of ignorance. With release, there was the knowledge, 'Released.' I discerned that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.' "This was the third knowledge I attained in the third watch of the night. Ignorance was destroyed; knowledge arose; darkness was destroyed; light arose — as happens in one who is heedful, ardent, & resolute. But the pleasant feeling that arose in this way did not invade my mind or remain." #72954 From: "Larry" Date: Sun Jun 3, 2007 11:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Condiitons, Ch 2, no 7. lbidd2 Hi TG, I don't see the problem. What is it that you don't like? And why all the vituperation? "view mongering"? If hardness appears it is hardness, not a person, regardless of what we think. Here's a sutta reference: MN21: "Further, Ananda, the monk — not attending to the perception of human being, not attending to the perception of wilderness — attends to the singleness based on the perception of earth. His mind takes pleasure, finds satisfaction, settles, & indulges in its perception of earth. Just as a bull's hide is stretched free from wrinkles with a hundred stakes, even so — without attending to all the ridges & hollows, the river ravines, the tracts of stumps & thorns, the craggy irregularities of this earth — he attends to the singleness based on the perception of earth. His mind takes pleasure, finds satisfaction, settles, & indulges in its perception of earth. "He discerns that 'Whatever disturbances that would exist based on the perception of human being are not present. Whatever disturbances that would exist based on the perception of wilderness are not present. There is only this modicum of disturbance: the singleness based on the perception of earth.' He discerns that 'This mode of perception is empty of the perception of human being. This mode of perception is empty of the perception of wilderness. There is only this non-emptiness: the singleness based on the perception of earth.' Thus he regards it as empty of whatever is not there. Whatever remains, he discerns as present: 'There is this.' And so this, his entry into emptiness, accords with actuality, is undistorted in meaning, & pure. [from ACI] Larry --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@... wrote: > > > In a message dated 6/3/2007 8:57:15 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, > vangorko@... writes: > > Hardness may > appear when we touch what we call a person. Hardness is an ultimate > reality with its own unchangeable characteristic. Hardness is always > hardness, it can be directly experienced. > > > Dear Friends > > You'll never find this type of view or view-mongering in the Suttas. Why is > it not in the Suttas? Because its not the Buddha's teaching. Period. Its > just a lot of hooey that's been hammered out by reasoning and views by folks > long after the Buddha's time. > > While the majority of Nina's post is good and in reasonable accordance with > the Suttas...her teachings are presented with the above aspect as the "heart > of the matter" ... when in fact it is virtually an irrelevant and mistaken > view that's been parasitically attached to the Buddha's teaching. The proof of > my opinion is the fact that the Buddha failed to teach such a thing...i.e., > it does not appear in the Suttas. How did the Buddha miss such an important > point ??? > > Well, I usually ignore these types of posts and will try to go back into > ignore mode for those of you who enjoy such scenarios. > > TG > #72955 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jun 3, 2007 11:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Condiitons, Ch 2, no 7. nilovg Dear TG, thanks for your post. Larry answered you with a sutta. Nina Op 3-jun-2007, om 17:57 heeft TGrand458@... het volgende geschreven: > You'll never find this type of view or view-mongering in the > Suttas. Why is > it not in the Suttas? Because its not the Buddha's teaching. #72956 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jun 3, 2007 11:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Clinging to kusala.....? nilovg Dear Ramesh, I am delighted with your lovely letter. I appreciate your great interest and research. Life is too short, but one thing helps: even if we have little time to read, but we deeply consider the few verses we read and apply them to our life it is fruitful. It is better than reading a thousand verses without attention. Nina. Op 3-jun-2007, om 11:28 heeft Ramesh Patil het volgende geschreven: > The dhamma devoted people who understand dhamma verses then they > try it to > understand the things on there own experience level...They tried > hard uptill > the end of there life still they found this life is also > insufficient to > know all the things... #72957 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jun 3, 2007 11:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Clinging to kusala.....? nilovg Dear Azita, thank you for your concern. Every step is painful, so is the session at the therapist. Since I go about so slowly in the house I have less time for computer. It makes me think of: akusala vipaaka through the body can condition kusala vipaaka through the body by natural decisive support-condition. Example: a painful treatment can lead to bodily wellbeing later on. Knowing the all: knowing all dhammas that appear. Not knowing all in the same way as the Buddha. Three rounds: saccan~n~a, kiccan~n~a, kata ~naa.na. This deals with the four noble Truths, see Sammaditthi corner. Nina. Op 3-jun-2007, om 10:29 heeft gazita2002 het volgende geschreven: > so all nama and rupa must be known as in, experienced by > citta? is it possible for anyone other than a Buddha to know all > namas and rupas? > I recall some discussion about the 3 rounds; does this mean > something like pariyatti, patipatti, pativedha; or does it mean > saccan~n~a, kiccan~n~a ....if this is too vague a question please > ignore. #72958 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jun 3, 2007 7:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Condiitons, Ch 2, no 7. upasaka_howard Hi, Larry (and TG) - Good quote, Larry. To the point. With metta, Howard #72959 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jun 3, 2007 12:29 pm Subject: Q. re: Jhana as necessity to enlightenment nilovg Hi Howard, ------ H:If jhana is unnecessary for the lesser attainments, cultivation is still to the good in any case. Actually attaining jhanas is supportive to the nth degree, but even when falling short, the mental cultivation of calm and clarity resulting from the process is beneficial. -------------------------------------------- N:Calm and clarity: it depends on what clarity. This has to do with pa~n~naa, only pa~n~naa sees clearly. The question is: what does pa~n~naa know? What is the content of this clarity. There has to be this clarity of pa~n~naa to truly know whether calm one feels is kusala or akusala. Each kusala citta has a degree of calm, and there is also alobha. But lobha can come in disguise of calm, one may feel so calm when there is in fact lobha. > -------- > H: Right concentration is certainly requisite for becoming an arahant.... > > What would > be a "non-categorical" understanding of it? > ------ N: not to think: everybody *has* to develop jhaana. > ---------- > H: ..... Why should contrary > commentarial views > be given precedence over the clear words of the Buddha? > ------ N: Also the Abhidhamma is part of the Tipitaka, ti means three. See the Puggala Pa~n~natti: there are different people. Some had inclination to jhana, others did not. ----------------------------------- But the Buddha included all levels > > of concentration, also of those who attained mundane jhana. And then, > be careful: in several contexts it is also lokuttara concentration, > having nibbaana as object. -------- N: I appreciate it you studied another sutta: H: Another sutta, AN 4.41, describes "the four developments of concentration".The first of these is the 4 jhanas,and they are described as leading to "a pleasant abiding in the here and now." The fourth, however, would appear to be "right concentration," and with regard to that the Buddha says the following: "And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents? There is the case where a monk remains focused on arising & falling away with reference to the five clinging-aggregates -------- N: the fourth one is what is most important and only this kind can lead to enlightenment: knowing the five khandhas as they really are, thus nama and rupa. That is to be preferred to a pleasant abiding here now. This is the lesson in this sutta. For other suttas, see what I said above. I do not see it as a problem that we are different. I read in a Co. in my Thai series that an arahat did not develop jhana, but after reaching arahatship he developed jhana. Different inclinations, no rule. -------------------------------------------- Howard: Who in the world says that you or I should not get help now? Of course we should! Now is the time to do what needs to be done. Samvega!! What help are you looking for? The Buddha gave us all the help we need. ------------------------------------------ N: We can go off the Path so long as we are not sotapanna, so we need help from the right Dhamma friends. It is good to be reminded not to have expectations, or to cling to awareness. > Take Ken H's post. it. It, > too, has to be known AS IT REALLY IS. > Do you see what I am getting at? Neither the given description of > right livelihood nor the given description of right concentration is > AS IT REALLY IS. It is something that HAS TO BE KNOWN as it really is.> > > This is refreshing to me, so helpful. > ---------------------------------------- Howard: What is the help, Nina? Do you now know right concentration? Do you know it as it is? ---------------------------------------- N: It is helpful to be reminded of what has to be known as it is. Sarah also helped me, writing to me not to forget the development of right understanding when having pain. These words came to me when in pain. ------------------ H quotes: The Abhidhamma teaches us that > happy feeling and piti, rapture, can also accompany cittas rooted in > attachment. The Abhidhamma is sobering, one needs the Abhidhamma to > cool down. ----------------------------------------- Howard: And to refrain from practice, it sounds to me. ---------------------------------------- N: On the contrary, it points to the right practice. Shows the difference between wrong concentration and right concentration. This is another area to be discussed. ------- Howard: Nina, this is not what the Buddha taught in the suttas. He did not teach that there is is nothing to be done. Sure, there is no "we". That does *not* mean that the Buddha didn't teach conventional things to be done. He *did*! ------- N: The right conditions are to be cultivated, but now I speak about the actual moment of the arising of sati sampaja~n~na: nobody can induce this, impossible. How could one predict the next moment of citta? Can you, even now? ------------ You had a remark about traveling as impediment to jhana: one thinks of the journey and this would distract from concentration on the kasina. Ch III of the Vis. is all about the preparations for someone who wants to attain jhana. ******* Nina. #72960 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jun 3, 2007 9:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. re: Jhana as necessity to enlightenment upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 6/3/07 3:30:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > ------- > N: The right conditions are to be cultivated, but now I speak about > the actual moment of the arising of sati sampaja~n~na: nobody can > induce this, impossible. > How could one predict the next moment of citta? Can you, even now? > ====================== There is no need to. There is only the need to do the right thing, right now. With metta, Howard #72961 From: "colette" Date: Sun Jun 3, 2007 7:48 am Subject: Re: Insight is "Vision," Not Merely Experience. ksheri3 Good Morning Ken, I'm having a good "relief session" right now and didn't want to bother it by worrying about my "connection" with groups, et al, on the net for three days but this morning I was thinking that maybe I should take an entire week away when a little later a definition struck me from words, concepts, you've just manifested, see below: > C: > but I'm sure the peanut gallery is saying their > praises that I chose not to go into those de-tails. ;-) > ----------------------- > > :-) No one can go far into those details without making me and rest > of the peanut gallery squirm in our seats. colette: WHY? Are you attempting to "control" the Samboghakaya? Is this an attempt to manifest a predetermined Astral Body? This is what I refer to as ROOT CAUSES, see Abhidhamma. ------------------------- Science, psychology the > like will inevitably lead to 'body parts' 'bodily functions' and > various 'perversions' that can accompany them. colette: True, but the foundation, the basis (base), is "the body" is it not? Now we can explore, meditate on,the ACTUAL RELATIONSHIP between the body and the world which encases us. Jewish kaballah did an extensive study of this back in Rab. Isaac Luria's day, or maybe it was Rab. Moses Kordovero (RAMAK, or something like that). I'm suggesting that there is unrefutable evidence of an equality between the human body and that of animals. You can see this in the DNA structure of chimpanzees and humans. The hard part for Westerners in their theology is finding the equality of the human body to that of the planet and then to the universe. I haven't had the time to think about how to get that wisdom out of me in written form but I know within myself that there is no mistaking the FACT THAT THE HUMAN BODY IS A REPRESENTATION OF THE PLANET AND OF THE UNIVERSE, all three are identicle and therefore linked together. Something links them, holds them, together, and I'm looking toward electro magnetism as the force but it's early in my studies so lets leave that as just a thought for the time being. Now our foundation is the equality between the human body and the planet. "Body Parts" and "body functions" and "various perversions" you say, are you meaning to imply that the function of the body is a interpreted as a perversion? Which would then place you in the camp for the programming and creation of a MEGLAMANIAC, a person that has to have EVERYTHING and EVERYBODY under their control and whims. a MEGLAMANIAC can be seen as a person with the mental illness of believing that they are this supposed "creator god", haven't studied it, only read one piece about it, but could it be a "god complex"? Before going deeper into your terminology of "perversions" I want to address the first few words in the current sentence concerning "science and "psychology": without science we, the entire human race, would be slaves to the meglamania of the Taliban who don't like treasures carved into solid rock, in a mountain, of the Buddha, do they? <....>Without psychology we would be subject to only skimming the surface, walking on water like so many bugs, insects, found in nature, but we really can't prove if Jesus of Nazereth actually walked on the planet or is just a mythos since we know that the Romans and Greeks got some of their myths by finding huge bones that resemble the same bones in a human body after decomposition. Now we can get to "and the perversions that occumpany them" schtick. The body has functions. Somehow you associate the functions of the body as being pervers.<....> Somehow you associate the functions of the body with the humor others find in those functions and thus create a perverted view of the body. This is still a persons concepts and if you think that your concepts are better than their concepts well then, you sure aren't practicing Buddhism now are ya? In fact not only have you created an unsurmountable OBSCURATION but you've also imprissoned yourself on all sides. You've put yourself in a box. Boxing things in is very Chinese all the way back to the Chin dynasty. I could have fun with this by re- calling Dr. Sanford Drobb's humor he wrote to me once concerning THE CHINESE BOX EXPERIMENT, or something like that, but I won't. I suggest that the perversions others have of the functions of the body are nothing more than negative aspects of the self you claim to possess. To make a long story short most people are stuck in "self-fulfilling prophecies" since they believe that they CONTROL THE SAMBOGHAKAYA and manifest it of their own free will THEN, it just goes accordingly to the teachings, that the Nirmanikaya is also under the control of the conscious individual making conscious decisions which are nothing more than delusions of granduer. I should know since Astral Projection is one thing I do very regularly and now that I've found others that study this exact same thing I'm trying to find out how to work what I know out of my mind to say to people, others since I sure as heck ain't getting through to them on the Astral plane. ---------------------------- Yuck, let's change the > subject! :-) colette: am I to understand that "Yuck" means, is defined as, AKUSALA? If it is distasteful to you then isn't that "distaste" a PRE- CONCEPTION, an UN-ATTAINABLE STANDARD that you impose on ALL OTHERS? It may be an averse rupa but is your aversion of a greater value than another person's? If so, WHY? yes, it gets VERY DIRTY when ya gotta get down to the base, the foundation, upon which Houses of Cards are built. Ask any NVA or VC (North Vietnamese Army or Viet Cong) or even ask any American soldier and they will tell ya that walking through the jungle sometimes means that ya gotta walk through a lot of shit, but ya can't stop now can ya? Ducks have been known to do the sitting don't they? toodles, colette #72962 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sun Jun 3, 2007 10:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Condiitons, Ch 2, no 7. TGrand458@... Hi Larry Not seeing the problem IS the problem. Where in your quote below does the Buddha speak of "own characteristics" or "Ultimate realities"? In fact, your post below shows the Buddha dealing with what Nina is calling "unreal concepts" as he uses the terms -- people, forests, village, etc. in the same way that he is using earth. This is a very poor Sutta to try to make Nina's case! It doesn't make it at all. And since Nina and Howard have "signed on" to this case, my comments go for their replies as well. Here's Nina's quote in question -- "Hardness may appear when we touch what we call a person. Hardness is an ultimate reality with its own unchangeable characteristic. Hardness is always hardness, it can be directly experienced." The quote below backs this up??? TG In a message dated 6/3/2007 12:16:30 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, LBIDD@... writes: Hi TG, I don't see the problem. What is it that you don't like? And why all the vituperation? "view mongering"? If hardness appears it is hardness, not a person, regardless of what we think. Here's a sutta reference: MN21: "Further, Ananda, the monk — not attending to the perception of human being, not attending to the perception of wilderness — attends to the singleness based on the perception of earth. His mind takes pleasure, finds satisfaction, settles, & indulges in its perception of earth. Just as a bull's hide is stretched free from wrinkles with a hundred stakes, even so — without attending to all the ridges & hollows, the river ravines, the tracts of stumps & thorns, the craggy irregularities of this earth — he attends to the singleness based on the perception of earth. His mind takes pleasure, finds satisfaction, settles, & indulges in its perception of earth. "He discerns that 'Whatever disturbances that would exist based on the perception of human being are not present. Whatever disturbances that would exist based on the perception of wilderness are not present. There is only this modicum of disturbance: the singleness based on the perception of earth.' He discerns that 'This mode of perception is empty of the perception of human being. This mode of perception is empty of the perception of wilderness. There is only this non-emptiness: the singleness based on the perception of earth.' Thus he regards it as empty of whatever is not there. Whatever remains, he discerns as present: 'There is this.' And so this, his entry into emptiness, accords with actuality, is undistorted in meaning, & pure. [from ACI] Larry #72963 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sun Jun 3, 2007 10:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Condiitons, Ch 2, no 7. TGrand458@... Hi Larry, Nina, and Howard Follow up. In Sutta MN 121, It would appear to me that the Buddha is using the term "earth" as a Kasina object for meditative purposes. He is NOT referring to the "hardness" of immediate experience/mindfulness that Nina and Howard often use "Hardness" to refer to. Let's keep these things straight. Therefore, the "supposed proof" being offered of "Own Characteristics" and "Ultimate Realities" is a mere "kasina concept"??? Come on! ... If anything this is proof against the arguments Nina proffers. And yes, they are views. A thicket and wilderness of views...I.E., thinking that these things are ultimate realities with their own characteristics. TG #72964 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Jun 3, 2007 5:38 pm Subject: Re: Q. re: Jhana as necessity to enlightenment buddhatrue Hi Nina, Nina: I am glad you ask. From the Visuddhimagga. It is repeated and emphasized: Ch IV, 79: quite secluded from sense desires. James: This refers to the moment of jhana; it doesn't have anything to do with a particular lifestyle. If you read further in the Vism. IV, 80: When absoluteness is introduced thus `quite secluded from sense desires', what is expressed is this: sense desires are certainly incompatible with this jhana; when they exist, it does not occur, just as when there is darkness, there is no lamplight; and it is only by letting go of them that it is reached just as the further bank is reached by letting go of the near bank. That is why absoluteness is introduced. Therefore, to add the word "life" prior to "quite secluded from sense desires" is to misrepresent the texts. Nina: The life one is leading should be in conformity with the jhana that one will attain. it is no good to enjoy pleasant things and then sit for jhana during certain hours of the day. James: The texts don't say anything about living a life without enjoying pleasant things in order to achieve jhana. Even monks enjoy pleasant things, before they achieve some level of enlightenment. You speak as if the person needs to live in a prison cell 24/7 in order to cultivate jhana! ;-)) Nina: A person must be careful not to take for jhana what is a kind of paranormal experience. This is very, very dangerous. James: LOL! Are you giving me a warning of some sort? Nina, you don't know what you are talking about. Show me some texts if you want to support some sort of teaching. You don't cultivate jhana so you don't have any expertise in that area- as you have said so yourself many times. Additionally, I want to address something you wrote to Howard concerning jhana: Nina: But I wonder why you want to speak only about the arahat. This is too far for me. I need help now! No time to lose, getting old and sick. For everyone: ten years fly by, we are almost dying. James: I'm very sorry that you are old, sick, and dying, but not everything is about you. We are discussing the Buddha's teaching- all of it. There are predominately householders in this group, but there are also monks in this group who read the posts for guidance. There is nothing wrong with discussing very high levels of Dhamma even if it isn't directly applicable to your situation- it could be applicable to someone else. Should everything that is posted be tailored just for Nina? Metta, James #72965 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Jun 3, 2007 6:11 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Condiitons, Ch 2, no 7. lbidd2 Hi TG, Concept and reality? Try this: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn05/sn05.010.bodh.html You are right. The example I gave doesn't explicitly say "perception of earth" is touch of hardness. It could be appearance of earth or idea of earth. But this doesn't quite look like jhana to me. I have found that hardness is hardness and nothing else, but I guess that doesn't count. Do you think some hardness is a person, or that there is no hardness, only people and things? Where do you stand here? Larry ------------------ TG: "Where in your quote below does the Buddha speak of "own characteristics" or "Ultimate realities"?" #72966 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sun Jun 3, 2007 3:03 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Condiitons, Ch 2, no 7. TGrand458@... In a message dated 6/3/2007 7:17:50 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, LBIDD@... writes: Hi TG, Concept and reality? Try this: _http://www.accesstohttp://www.ahttp://wwhttp://www.achttp://wwhttp_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn05/sn05.010.bodh.html) You are right. The example I gave doesn't explicitly say "perception of earth" is touch of hardness. It could be appearance of earth or idea of earth. But this doesn't quite look like jhana to me. I have found that hardness is hardness and nothing else, but I guess that doesn't count. Do you think some hardness is a person, or that there is no hardness, only people and things? Where do you stand here? Larry .......................................................................... NEW TG: Hi Larry This issue at hand is "own characteristics" and "ultimate realities" being applied to the aggregates and elements. For the time being, I'm not debating about "hardness." The "assemblage of parts" and "constructions" the Buddha speaks of are often things like, heart, hair, liver, bile, snot, bone, flesh, blood, kidney, etc. These aren't the "ultimate realities" that are spoken of are they? Yes, the Buddha will also speak of aggregates and elements...which are actually also assemblages as Howard has pointed out quite convincingly this last month. Bottom line is, the Buddha's arguments do not show any pattern or intention of defining or revealing anything as having its "own characteristic" or being an "ultimate reality." Although a weak case might be made to claim such a thing, it is just as easy; nay, easier...to show that the Buddha is dealing with concepts, and "assemblages" in order to get his point across. The POINT being to detach the mind from conditions of suffering...which is all conditions. Your latest quote only proves my point and does nothing to advance the ideas of "ultimate realities" with their "own characteristics." As to your quoted material... "Nothing but suffering comes to be. Nothing but suffering ceases." Certainly an interesting and complete contradiction to the Abhidhammikas claims. I don't see any "own characteristics" or "ultimate realities" being proffered here. Why now do you assume 'a being'? Mara, have you grasped a view? This is a heap of sheer constructions: Here no being is found. Just as, with an assemblage of parts, The word 'chariot' is used, So, when the aggregates are present, There's the convention 'a being.' It's only suffering that comes to be, Suffering that stands and falls away. Nothing but suffering comes to be, Nothing but suffering ceases. Got to run. TG #72967 From: "m_nease" Date: Sun Jun 3, 2007 7:34 pm Subject: Re: Sammaadi.t.thi study corner m_nease Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > I see I missed this post of yours.Sorry about that. Never a problem. My apologies for the slow response. > > It seems to me that each tends to editorialize somewhat--TB more in > > his selection of texts as well as their translations; BB more in > his > > comments (I think his translations are more rigorous). I agree > that > > TB is passionate in his views (if I may call them that) and often > very > > moving. I must say I do have misgivings about 'passion' in this > regard. > > I think TB is wonderful for beginners. (I define "beginner" as > someone who is prey to turmoil caused by gross defilements.) In his > talks, especially, he encourages a method of meditation that makes > the meditation object pleasant and interesting, to give the beginner > a safe refuge from turmoil. I think this is good, and for one who > has established a kind of provisional refuge there can be conditions > for seeing into the shortcomings of this approach. In this we are diametrically opposed but I see no virtue in debating these points. > We need that provisional refuge first, no matter how quirky some > aspects of it are. (I guess this "making the breath interesting > aspect" came from his Thai Forest teachers.) As above-- > > > Personally, I think the sutta passage in question is > > > clear enough in making it clear that supramundane *right* view > is that > > > of the ariyan and is clearly compared to the right view of > worldlings > > > who do not gain liberation from samsara through their right > view, but > > > at least do not fall into gross wrong view that leads them into > evil > > > deeds. > > > > An interesting way of putting it. Of course (I think) it is the > > arising of supramundane right view that creates the distinction > > between the worldling and the ariyan. I wonder though, in the > > worldling's right view, is there a mundane view that is merely > > intellectual and another that is transformative (by this I mean > > insight into one of the four bases of insight, but short of the > path)? > > This is not yet clear to me from the texts (or, of course, from > > experience). > > Not yet clear to me either. > > > > It is this latter right view that interests me, personally. The > > > wrong view of *not* having the right view of the ariyan? Not a > concern. > > > > Agreed-- > > We agree there. I always remember you commenting on wannabe > sotapannas or something like that. I don't remember--but I'm certainly capable of such a gaffe. > > > I don't think that this supramundane right view can be attained > by > > > thinking about it. > > > > Certainly not--and also not by NOT thinking about it. There are, > > though (as I understand it), thoughts that are "conducive > to...growth > > in intuitive wisdom...[and] nibbaana": > > > > "The bodhisatta realized that these lead neither to self-hurt, nor > to > > the hurt of others, nor to the hurt of both, but that they are for > > "growth in intuitive wisdom", that they are "not associated with > > distress", "conducive to nibbana ". We read about kusala vitakka: > > > > "...Monks, if a monk ponder and reflect much on the thought of > > renunciation he ejects the thought of sense-pleasures: if he makes > > much of the thought of renunciation, his mind inclines to the > thought > > of renunciation. Monks, if a monk ponder and reflect much on the > > thought of non-malevolence he ejects the thought of malevolence... > > Monks, if a monk ponder and reflect much on the thought of > > non-harming, he ejects the thought of harming; if he makes much of > the > > thought of non-harming his mind inclines to the thought of non- > harming..." > > > > Quoted from Majjhima Nikaaya I. 2. 9. Dvedhaavitakkasutta.m in > Nina's > > 'Cetasikas'. Always a pleasure Phil and Best Wishes, mike #72968 From: "m_nease" Date: Sun Jun 3, 2007 7:47 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sammaadi.t.thi study corner m_nease Hi Jon and Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > I've been following your discussion with interest, especially Scott's > many relevant quotes. One smart Canadian, eh? > As I recall, the original point relating to mundane insight/panna arose > because most of the references found in the suttas seem to be to > supramundane insight. > > However, as Nina pointed out in a recent post to Phil: > Satipatthana according to its [the Satipatthana Sutta's] co is described > as mundane. There has > to be a mundane Path before the lokuttara Path can be reached. All > the teachings point to this. Of this I'm convinced. > As I see it, a lot of suttas were pitched at the level of those about to > attain enlightenment, and this accounts for the frequent references to > the highest levels of development (indriyas, balas, bojjhangas, etc). So it seems to me too. > Similarly, in M.117 which was being discussed earlier, where right view > (panna) is given as twofold, namely, > (a) affected by taints, partaking of merit, ripening on the side of > attachments, and > (b) noble, taintless, supramundane, > the second category of right view would include mundane right view of > the level of insight. Maybe--perversions of insight come to mind but I think they are probably post hoc and superfluous to this issue. If this interpretation of M.117 is correct though, can it be read as textual evidence that 'conceptual right view' ((a)?) is a prerequisite to either insight or path? > That's as I understand it (although I would have to admit that BB's note > 1103 at p.1322 is open to a different reading) Much as I like and respect BB, I'm looking for something a little less equivocal from the texts. Thanks, mike #72969 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Jun 3, 2007 7:57 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions, Ch 2, no 7. lbidd2 Hi TG, TG: "Bottom line is, the Buddha's arguments do not show any pattern or intention of defining or revealing anything as having its "own characteristic" or being an "ultimate reality." Although a weak case might be made to claim such a thing, it is just as easy; nay, easier...to show that the Buddha is dealing with concepts, and "assemblages" in order to get his point across. The POINT being to detach the mind from conditions of suffering...which is all conditions." L: I agree with your conclusion. "Ultimate reality" and "own characteristics" is just experience. Some people will say they experience an ice cream cone. Others will say they experience sight, sound, smell, taste, touch. Which do you think will lead to detachment? Larry #72970 From: "J Trasvin" Date: Sun Jun 3, 2007 5:28 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Clinging to kusala.....? trasvin Dear Nina, Sarah, and Jon, This is Jiw from Chiang Mai. The topic reminds me the first few months of my Dhamma study, I went to Beijing for a week. Upon my return, I stopped over in BKK, Than Achan asked me how was the trip. I replied: Kukkucca arose all 7 days. I was worrying about the akusala I have done and kusala which I haven't done. Than Achan said: see how strong atta is. So, my understanding of such a comment was, we have to remember well to drop the atta. To cling on kusala or akusala is to cling on the atta. The moment citta experiences kusala (or akusala), it happens so fast and there is nothig to cling on. Anyway, kukkucca still arises daily but it dissapears very quickly too. Best wishes, Jiw On 6/4/07, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Azita, > thank you for your concern. Every step is painful, so is the session > at the therapist. Since I go about so slowly in the house I have less > time for computer. It makes me think of: akusala vipaaka through the > body can condition kusala vipaaka through the body by natural > decisive support-condition. Example: a painful treatment can lead to > bodily wellbeing later on. > Knowing the all: knowing all dhammas that appear. Not knowing all in > the same way as the Buddha. > Three rounds: saccan~n~a, kiccan~n~a, kata ~naa.na. This deals with > the four noble Truths, see Sammaditthi corner. <.....> #72971 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jun 3, 2007 9:03 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. re: Jhana as necessity to enlightenment nilovg Hi Howard, agreed, but the issue was control. Can one control cittas right now? Nina. Op 3-jun-2007, om 22:17 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > N: The right conditions are to be cultivated, but now I speak about > > the actual moment of the arising of sati sampaja~n~na: nobody can > > induce this, impossible. > > How could one predict the next moment of citta? Can you, even now? > > > ====================== > There is no need to. There is only the need to do the right thing, > right now. #72972 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sun Jun 3, 2007 5:17 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions, Ch 2, no 7. TGrand458@... Hi Larry In a message dated 6/3/2007 8:58:19 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, LBIDD@... writes: L: I agree with your conclusion. "Ultimate reality" and "own characteristics" is just experience. .............................................. NEW TG: That's not my conclusion. I reject these descriptions and consider them on the side of self-view. ....................................... Some people will say they experience an ice cream cone. Others will say they experience sight, sound, smell, taste, touch. Which do you think will lead to detachment? Larry ............................................... NEW TG: It depends on the flavor of the ice cream cone. I think a bubble gum ice cream cone would probably get me enlightened pretty quick. ;-) Truth of the matter is..."the experience" of these things per se has nothing to do with detachment. Seeing them as "ultimate realities" certainly does not. It is insight into impermanence, affliction, and no-self that detaches. This insight can develop through means of internal phenomena, or external phenomena, or both. The development can be non-conceptual based, or conceptual based, or both. The right view of no-self will prevent the mind from seeing phenomena as existing or not existing or as realities or non-realities. The mind instead will transcend these "standpoints" and see conditions as they really are...as impermanent, afflicting, and no-self....detached and not clinging to anything. TG OUT #72973 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Jun 3, 2007 10:31 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions, Ch 2, no 7. lbidd2 Hi TG, L: " "Ultimate reality" and "own characteristics" is just experience." TG: "That's not my conclusion. I reject these descriptions and consider them on the side of self-view." L: They are the objects of self view. We cling to them as me and mine, but when their true nature is directly known they are seen as anatta. TG: "Truth of the matter is..."the experience" of these things per se has nothing to do with detachment L: "Per se" is the operative term and it has everything to do with detachment. The most basic insight is the recognition of dhammas: hardness is not me because it is hardness. TG: "Seeing them as "ultimate realities" certainly does not. It is insight into impermanence, affliction, and no-self that detaches. This insight can develop through means of internal phenomena, or external phenomena, or both. The development can be non-conceptual based, or conceptual based, or both. The right view of no-self will prevent the mind from seeing phenomena as existing or not existing or as realities or non-realities. The mind instead will transcend these "standpoints" and see conditions as they really are...as impermanent, afflicting, and no-self....detached and not clinging to anything." L: What is "non-conceptual"? Larry #72974 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Jun 3, 2007 10:13 pm Subject: Elements, Diversities, Tendencies & Abilities! bhikkhu5 Friends: Seeing the Elements, Tendencies & Abilities! Once when the Venerable Anuruddha was dwelling at Savatthi in Jeta's Grove , in AnÄ?thapindika 's Park, a number of Bhikkhus went to the Venerable Anuruddha & exchanged polite greetings with him. Then they sat down & asked the Ven. Anuruddha : Venerable Sir: What has the Venerable Anuruddha developed & cultivated so that he has attained to his famous greatness of direct knowledge? It is, friends, because I have developed and cultivated these four Foundations of Awareness that I have won great direct knowledge. What four? Here, friends, I dwell constantly contemplating upon: The Body only as a formed group, neither as I, me, mine, nor a self... The Feelings only as passing sensations, neither as I, mine, nor self... The Mind only as temporary mentalities, neither as I, nor any self... All Phenomena only as mental states not as reality or as existents... while eager, clearly comprehending, & fully aware , thereby removing all desire & frustration rooted in this world! It is, friends, because I have developed & cultivated these Four Foundations of Awareness that I have become empowered with the suprahuman forces: I see & understand this entire world with its many & diverse elements as it really is. Furthermore, friends, this awareness make me experience the diversity of dispositions and tendencies in all kinds of beings... Furthermore, friends, it is, friends, because I have developed and fully refined these Four Foundations of Awareness that I see and understand as it really is the degree of maturity in all the abilities of all other beings and persons... Source (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. [V:304] section 52: Anuruddha. Thread 18-20: The elements and abilities! For details on the Abilities (indriya ) see: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Five_Abilities.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Analysis_of_the_Abilities.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Fruits_of_the_Abilities.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Final_Abilities.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Faith_Summary.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/The_Ability_of_Energy.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/The_Awareness_Ability.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/The_Concentration_Ability.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/The_Understanding_Ability.htm Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Ceylon * <....> Seeing the Elements, Dispositions and Abilities! #72975 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Sun Jun 3, 2007 11:37 pm Subject: Hey Azita!! christine_fo... Hello Azita, Can you send me your home email please? Reg wants it too. It was wiped out of my computer when I put it in for reparis. I have already sent you an email from dsg, but with no reply yet. metta Chris #72976 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jun 4, 2007 12:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Angry Monks sarahprocter... Hi Chris, (Rob M, Larry & all), I thought you wrote an interesting and useful reply (# 72626)to Rob M & Larry with some good examples on this topic. I was rather hoping they'd add their further comments. .... > >Rob M: I would not want to take as a teacher somebody who is driven by > > anger, no matter how smart they are. .... >C: This is interesting. What is 'anger'? Serious question, not smart > remark. I think correct definition is important. So often we label > something as 'anger' when it is something else ... something that > makes us uncomfortable, or affronts us. <...> > Doesn't it depend on the understanding of the disciple and the > Teacher? ... S: You gave good examples of the strong comments from the Buddha, obviously not in anger. It's always good to be reminded that it's not the words in themselves but the underlying mental states that determine whether anger is present or indicated. For the rest of us, however, I think we can say that the speech doesn't just depend on 'the understanding of the disciple and the teacher', but on the accumulations, the deep-rooted tendencies, of the teacher (and disciple) as well. As Rob suggested, someone may be very smart or very wise even, but easily be prone to anger and vice versa. However, as discussed in the 'Clinging to kusala....?' thread, any such anger is merely an element, not belonging to anyone in any ultimate sense. Appreciating this can condition less disturbance and more understanding when we read or hear others expressions of akusala. Metta, Sarah ======= #72977 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jun 4, 2007 12:19 am Subject: Re: Anicca and Anatta - An Addendum Re: [dsg] "Ordinary" Impermanence sarahprocter... Hi Herman & Larry, --- LBIDD@... wrote: > Hi Herman, > > H: "Is the division nama/rupa experienced, or is it a product of > thought/analysis?" > > L: I vote for thought/analysis. .... S: I'd say it depends what you mean here by 'experienced'. A) If you mean 'experienced' as in 'what is experienced regardless of any knowledge', I'd say that definitely 'the division nama/rupa is experienced'. Whether we've ever heard of, let alone understood, anything about nama and rupa, namas and rupas are experienced all day long by cittas. They have completely different characteristics which are 'experienced' as such whenever they are the objects of cittas. b) If you mean 'experienced' in the sense of 'what is directly known by wisdom', I'd say that unless insight has been developed, they are the object of thought/analysis. However, as wisdom and awareness develop, they get closer and closer to directly knowing the 'division nama/rupa'. Without such development, there will never be the direct insight. Metta, Sarah p.s I enjoyed reading the 'critical anaysis' by different friends of your new Corner:-)) ======== #72978 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jun 4, 2007 12:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Theriigaathaa - Sisters (55) sarahprocter... Dear Connie & all, We're all familiar with the Buddha's words in the Mahaparinibbana Sutta about abiding as an island, no looking for outside refuges and having the Dhamma as the island. In the last extract on Mahaa-Pajaapatii Gotamii, it's made clear that it is only through the development of satipatthana that the refuge is found: --- connie wrote: > "Attadiipaa tato hotha, satipa.t.thaanagocaraa; > bhaavetvaa sattabojjha"nge, dukkhassanta.m karissathaa"ti. (Apa. therii > > 2.2.97-288). > Mahaapajaapatigotamiitheriigaathaava.n.nanaa ni.t.thitaa. <...> > "Therefore, be refuges to yourself. Develop the seven constituents of > awakening through the domain of the foundations of mindfulness, and you > will put an end to misery." > Thus these verses of Mahaa-Pajaapatii Gotamii were spoken. .... S: For me, these reminders are more inspiring than all the tales about miraculous powers:-). Many thanks, Sarah ======== #72979 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jun 4, 2007 12:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Theriigaathaa - Sisters (55) sarahprocter... Hi Connie & all, --- connie wrote: > The final quenching of the Buddha was not the equal of the final > quenching of Gotamii. [Hers] was a much more wonderful occasion. > The Buddha did not prepare the bhikkhus for the Buddha's quenching the > way the Buddha and Saariputta, etc, did for the quenching of Gotamii. .... S: This was an interesting detail. A 'curiousity' for Herman! Metta, Sarah ======= #72980 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Jun 4, 2007 12:45 am Subject: Re: Jhana as necessity to enlightenment... buddhatrue Hi Jon, Jon: I think there is a need to distinguish between the arising of the jhana factors and the arising of jhana citta (i.e., on the attainment of the jhana states). The two are not the same by any means. As I understand it (corrections welcome, anyone), the jhana factors arise at level of access concentration, while jhana citta arises only when absorption concentration is reached. James: This is how the Vism. describes the difference between access and absorption concentration, in overall terms: "Now concentration is of two kinds, that is to say, access concentration and absorption concentration: the mind becomes concentrated in two ways, that is, on the plane of access and on the plane of obtainment. Herein, the mind becomes concentrated on the plane of access by the abandonment of the hindrances, and on the plane of obtainment by the manifestation of the jhana factors. The difference between the two kinds of concentration is this. The factors are not strong in access. It is because they are not strong that when access has arisen, the mind now makes the sign its object and now re-enters the life-continuum, just as when a young child is lifted up and stood on its feet, it repeatedly falls down on the ground. But the factors are strong in absorption. It is because they are strong that when absorption concentration has arisen, the mind, having once interrupted the flow of the life-continuum, carries on with a stream of profitable impulsion for a whole night and for a whole day, just as a healthy man, after arising from his seat, could stand for a whole day. So, according to this definition, the jhana citta also arises during access concentration, but the jhana factors are not strong enough to continue those jhana cittas indefinitely, and the mind will revert back to the `life-continuum' (the cognitive series `citta-vithi'). When the jhana factors are strong in the jhana cittas, then the mind will no longer revert to the citta-vithi but will continue with the jhana cittas for a very long time (possibly all day and all night). The important point to remember is that the practitioner has still experienced the bliss of jhana (jhana citta) even during access concentration!! That bliss of jhana must be experienced, even if temporarily, for enlightenment to be possible (according to the Buddha in MN 14). Frankly, access concentration and absorption concentration are still the first jhana. The hindrances are overcome, the jhana factors arise, so it is still the first jhana- even if during access concentration the jhana cittas don't last indefinitely. Metta, James #72981 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jun 4, 2007 1:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Theriigaathaa - Sisters (55) sarahprocter... Dear Connie, Herman & all, Another 'curiousity': --- connie wrote: > "One day, while teaching the Doctrine, the Supreme Leader of the World > > sneezed. ... S: !! sounds pretty mundane for the Buddha....The first sneeze I ever read about, I believe. .... >Then, out of sympathy, I spoke a word of good wishes: > "'May you live long, Great Hero! May you stay for an aeon, O Great > Sage! > May you be without old age and death for the sake of all the world!' > "After I spoke in this manner, the Buddha said to me: 'Buddhas are not > to be praised in the way you pay homage to me, Gotamii.' ... S: And yet Gotamii was a great arahant at the time, so hardly a reprimand, wouldn't you say? (Ah, see below....) I'm thinking of Herman's question of why the Buddha didn't give Ananda that key hint to request him to live on. If Gotamii couldn't get it right....!! .... > "'Then how is homage paid to Perfect Ones, O Omniscient One?' [I > asked.] > 'And how is homage not to be paid to Buddhas? Please reveal to me [the > answer] to what has been asked.' > "'See the disciples all together, putting forth energy,' [he replied,] > 'resolute, always with strong effort. This is homage to the Buddhas.'* >... S: Ah, I may have been mistaken above. I believe Gotamii is reminding Ananda who is 'afflicted by grief' at the thought that the Buddha too may attain parinibbana soon. She is recounting earlier words of the Buddha to her (presumably before she became an arahant). He is reminding her of the refuge, the refuge of satipatthana. Metta, Sarah *> katha.m avandiyaa buddhaa, ta.m me akkhaahi pucchito. > "Aaraddhaviiriye pahitatte, nicca.m da.lhaparakkame; > samagge saavake passa, eta.m buddhaanavandana.m. ================ #72982 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jun 4, 2007 1:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Clinging to kusala.....? sarahprocter... Dear Jiw, --- J Trasvin wrote: >To cling on kusala or akusala is to > cling on the atta. The moment citta experiences kusala (or akusala), > it happens so fast and there is nothig to cling on. .... S: Yes, well said. When there's aversion of any kind, it's unpleasant and we don't see the clinging behind it. However, when it's all 'my akusala', there's lots of clinging to atta in between the dosa as you say. Why is there so much minding about the akusala? Because we'd like to be another way, the kusala way. Such clinging just conditions more aversion, more unhappiness. This is why the only way is one of detachment and understanding of dhammas as elements, as namas and rupas. ... > Anyway, kukkucca still arises daily but it dissapears very quickly too. .... S: You mentioned to me to that you were having some work difficulties. Everyone has worries and regrets on account of attachment. As you suggest, even though it may seem that they last, in fact they are very transient dhammas. Whilst there are accumulations for such, it can't be any other way, but understanding is the medicine! Always good to hear your comments, Jiw and to see you here. Metta, Sarah ======= #72983 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jun 4, 2007 1:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: what is sati, to sarah sarahprocter... Dear Nidhi, I'm enjoying your discussions, such as the one with Mike. Your comments comparing Jainism and Buddhism were very interesting, for example. Earlier to me you wrote: --- wisdomcompassion wrote: > i m reading two books downloaded from buddhanet.net , one is by Ven. > Narada Thera, and the other one by a burmese author Dr. Mehm Tin Mon and > one book by ledi sayadaw. .... S: I'm glad to hear this. Is the Narada one 'The Buddha and his Teachings'? The one by Dr Mehm Tin Mon, is it 'Buddha Abhidhamma'? Which is the one by Ledi Sayadaw you're reading? I'm impressed by your diligence and keen interest in the teachings, having studied other teachings/religions before. .... > > surely, i would like to ask my doubts, as abhidhamma is a difficult > subject to understand. i have downloaded Nina's book as well. ... S: That's good. Anyway, I think you're going about your studies in a useful way by raising questions and concerns here and really considering what you're reading. .... > i have one question to ask; what is application of abhidhamma. i know > Nina's book is just about that, but i like to have few lines so that i > would keep that in mind while reading. ... S: For me, the application of abhidhamma all comes down to understanding what is true, what is right at this very moment, having appreciated that there really is no other moment. I think it's a huge breakthrough (on any level) to understand that there are only namas and rupas now. What we find so important in life are long, long stories, fantasies and ideas based on just these dhammas. Furthermore, these namas and rupas such as seeing consciousness and visible object can be directly known now when they appear as object. We (or rather understanding) can appreciate that they really are conditioned and beyond anyone's control. It's useless to try and make them be any other way or to think that another time would be more favourable for awareness to arise and develop. Hope that helps. Metta, Sarah ======= #72984 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Jun 4, 2007 1:10 am Subject: Nibbaana htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, What is nibbaana? 1. is it 'ending of suffering'? 2. is it emptiness? 3. is it end of naama-ruupa? 4. is it an existance? 5. is it an entity? 6. is it just voidness of everything? 7. is it related to naama or ruupa? 8. is it not related to naama or ruupa? 9. is it a naama? 10.is it not a naama? Just giving food for thought! With Metta, Htoo Naing #72985 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 4, 2007 1:33 am Subject: Conditions, Ch 2, no 7 nilovg Hi TG and Larry, I have been following your interesting discussions. Because of limited physical capacities for the time being, I cannot contribute much. But TG, you certainly bring up important points. Can you not repeat them to me in a month time? As to sabhaava, there were many debates in the past. I came across: As to the experience of earth, one may experience earth and still not realize its true nature. For this, see: The Commentary to the “Muulapariyaayasutta”, Discourse on the Synopsis of Fundamentals, (M I, 1, translated by Ven. Bodhi as “The root of Existence”, B.P.S. Sarah had several posts on this important subject. See also the Elephant's Footprint, and Kindred Sayings on elements, for more suttas on hardness. I am sorry I cannot go into this now. Nina. #72986 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 4, 2007 1:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Clinging to kusala.....? nilovg Dear Khun Jiw, I am so happy to see you posting. it is good you remind us how often worry, kukkucca, can arise. And sure, how good to remember that it is just clinging to self when we worry about 'my akusala, my kusala'. Thank you. Nina. Op 4-jun-2007, om 2:28 heeft J Trasvin het volgende geschreven: > Kukkucca arose all 7 days. I was worrying about the akusala I have > done and kusala which I haven't done. Than Achan said: see how strong > atta is. So, my understanding of such a comment was, we have to > remember well to drop the atta. To cling on kusala or akusala is to > cling on the atta. #72987 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 4, 2007 2:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. re: Jhana as necessity to enlightenment nilovg Hi James, I am sorry that I cannot go more deeply into matters because of my temporary handicap. I agree that the text itself speaks about jhana, but prepartion is necessary. Such as the severing of the impediments. This I see as important: those who want to cultivate jhaana see the danger of attachment to sense pleasures. Jhaana eliminates lobha, and insight eradicates ignorance. We have to think first of all of detachment when we speak about jhaana. One has to be very sincere as to striving for detachment from sense pleasures and also very consistent, really persevering. The monk's life is a life of fewness of wishes and this is really necessary if one strives to attain jhaana. He still has lobha so long as it is not eradicated, but his lifestyle is sober: he cannot choose his own food, is not after entertainment or chatting with friends, or coarse lobha, as Phil describes it. The difference between his life and the ordinary layman's life is like heaven and earth. Such a life is compatible with jhana. As a layman one has to live practically like a monk with fewness of wishes. This is not like prison life, one chooses it oneself, in all sincerity. Nina. Op 4-jun-2007, om 2:38 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > The texts don't say anything about living a life without > enjoying pleasant things in order to achieve jhana. Even monks enjoy > pleasant things, before they achieve some level of enlightenment. #72988 From: "wisdomcompassion" Date: Mon Jun 4, 2007 3:21 am Subject: clarification wisdomcompas... dear all, i had been using certain words like nirjara, purification, watching etc. recently i found the sutta reference of what i meant by all this ------------------- it is anguttar nikaya cattukkanipata http://www.tipitaka.org/roman/s0402m3/s0402m3-frm.html 232. "Cattārimāni bhikkhave, kammāni mayā sayaṃ abhiññā sacchikatvā paveditāni. Katamāni cattāri? Atthi, bhikkhave, kammaṃ kaṇhaṃ kaṇhavipākaṃ; atthi, bhikkhave, kammaṃ sukkaṃ sukkavipākaṃ; atthi, bhikkhave, kammaṃ kaṇhasukkaṃ kaṇhasukkavipākaṃ; atthi, bhikkhave, kammaṃ akaṇha-asukkaṃ [akaṇhaṃ asukkaṃ (sī. syā. pī.) (dī. ni. 3.312; ma. ni. 2.81)] akaṇha-asukkavipākaṃ kammakkhayāya saṃvattati. Imāni kho, bhikkhave, cattāri kammāni mayā sayaṃ abhiññā sacchikatvā paveditānī"ti. Paṭhamaṃ. These four types of kamma have been understood, realized, & made known by me. Which four? There is kamma that is dark with dark result; kamma that is bright with bright result; kamma that is dark & bright with dark & bright result; and kamma that is neither dark nor bright with neither dark nor bright result, leading to the ending of kamma. (Translation from accesstoinsight.org) ------------------- in some of my previous posts i was talking about this.this kamma is neither kusala, nor akusala, nor neutral but absence of kamma, this leads one to purification/cleaning/watching without volition etc. , other word for the same thing is 'pahana', though it is used when a certain degree of purification has been done.only this kamma can lead one to unbinding. as kusala kamma also binds one. I was using the word 'nirjara' for this. the pali word is 'nijjara'. though buddha used 'pahana' mostly for this. with metta nidhi #72989 From: "wisdomcompassion" Date: Mon Jun 4, 2007 4:14 am Subject: [dsg] Re: what is sati, to sarah wisdomcompas... Dear Sarah, > S: I'm glad to hear this. Is the Narada one 'The Buddha and his > Teachings'? The one by Dr Mehm Tin Mon, is it 'Buddha Abhidhamma'? Which > is the one by Ledi Sayadaw you're reading? ********* N:The books that i m reading are ;A Manual of Abhidhamma(Abhidhammattha Sangaha) by venerable Narada Maha Thera. and other one is Buddhha Abhhidhhamma,Ultimate Science by Dr.Mehm Tin Mon. The Ledi sayadaw book that i m reading is called Manuals of dhamma. ********* > S: For me, the application of abhidhamma all comes down to understanding > what is true, what is right at this very moment, having appreciated that > there really is no other moment. > > I think it's a huge breakthrough (on any level) to understand that there > are only namas and rupas now. What we find so important in life are long, > long stories, fantasies and ideas based on just these dhammas. > > Furthermore, these namas and rupas such as seeing consciousness and > visible object can be directly known now when they appear as object. > > We (or rather understanding) can appreciate that they really are > conditioned and beyond anyone's control. It's useless to try and make them > be any other way or to think that another time would be more favourable > for awareness to arise and develop. ********* N: i agree with you on all this, however I like to add something. what i mean by understanding(i use the word watching rather) is burning the anusaya, so that it never comes again. i have been reading suttas more closely and i feel that my understanding goes clearly with what buddha is saying in suttas. i have written another post for explaining this more clearly. i would like to add one more thing, this 'watching/understanding' is not what we are used to do all our life. its a totally new thing, never heard of, i would say. one can do it in meditation and in waking hours as well(once some proficiency has been gained). and it really works.i have been benefitted a lot from this. i have tried my best to explain.But i feel these words will not be understood in the sense i intend, because human mind since birth knows only action or idleness (total absence of action), it doesn't know inaction which actually includes both in a sense. it is 4th type of kamma that buddhas talks about in anguttara nikaya catukknipata, kammavaggo, passage 234. But since i found something , my job was to share it. Because every one wants nibbana, every one here is working for that. ****** > Hope that helps. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======= ***** yes, Sarah, i have learnt a lot after joining this group. and i have always enjoyed discussions with people over here. My only qualm is 'understanding' dhammas as they appear, must be done in right way. I have been discussing this thing ever since, i don't know whether i have conveyed anything or not. I am not expert in dhamma, but as i see very few people know this thing. And as i see this is direct path leading to burning of anusayas. i have no doubt about this. with metta, nidhi #72990 From: "wisdomcompassion" Date: Mon Jun 4, 2007 4:21 am Subject: Re: clarification wisdomcompas... hi again, the text didn't appear correctly after posting, it is from angutar nikaya, catukknipata, kammavaggo(24), 232 nidhi #72991 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jun 4, 2007 12:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions, Ch 2, no 7. upasaka_howard Hi, Larry (and TG) - In a message dated 6/3/07 10:58:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@... writes: > Hi TG, > > TG: "Bottom line is, the Buddha's arguments do not show any pattern or > intention of defining or revealing anything as having its "own > characteristic" or being an "ultimate reality." Although a weak case > might be made to claim such a thing, it is just as easy; nay, > easier...to show that the Buddha is dealing with concepts, and > "assemblages" in order to get his point across. The POINT being to > detach the mind from conditions of suffering...which is all conditions." > > L: I agree with your conclusion. "Ultimate reality" and "own > characteristics" is just experience. Some people will say they > experience an ice cream cone. Others will say they experience sight, > sound, smell, taste, touch. Which do you think will lead to detachment? ---------------------------------------- Howard: Butting in with my 2 cents: You know, it's really hard to say. As I start to think about it, it is the sight of the ice cream, it's (crunch) sound, it's variety of tastes (even in the same ice cream), and it's touch (texture) - there's not much in the way of smell - that pull me in. So, one might jump to say that it is the dhammas (i.e. qualities),the rupas specifically, that pull me in. On the other hand, the sight alone surely won't do it, nor the sound alone, nor the touch alone, and probably even the taste alone won't do it. But the combination does it, and the combination is gross concept, clearly involving thought. So, it seems to me, actually, that we cling most strongly to gross concept than to the underlying dhammas, which is why the chariot-decomposition, analytic approach is such an important aspect of the training. That analyitic approach, if not just a matter of study and thinking, but of mind-on application in meditation and ongoing mindfulness practice, is, IMO, the technique of the Dhammasangani. The synthetic aspect of the training, when also carried out during meditation an ongoing mindfulness practice, is the technique of the Patthana, with that aspect of the training serving to loosen the more subtle hold that the dhammas, thmselves, have on us. -------------------------------------------------- > > Larry > ======================= With metta, Howard #72992 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Jun 4, 2007 5:17 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sammaadi.t.thi study corner scottduncan2 Dear Mike and Jon, Thanks for your replies and sorry I'm rushed these days: M: "...If this interpretation of M.117 is correct though, can it be read as textual evidence that 'conceptual right view' ((a)?) is a prerequisite to either insight or path...I'm looking for something a little less equivocal from the texts.?" Scott: This won't be unequivocal, I'm looking at bits here. In Atthasaalinii (p. 499), it says, "'Concept' means a revealing." The footnote states, "Pa~n~natti means what the mind both conceives and renders articulate." These words are related (PTS PED): "Pa~n~natti (f.) [fr. pa~n~naapeti, cp. pa~n~natta] making known, manifestation, description, designation, name, idea, notion, concept..." "Pa~n~naapeti [Caus. of pajaanaati] 1. to make known, declare, point out, appoint, assign, recognise, define..." "Pajaanaati [pa+jaanaati] to know, find out, come to know, understand, distinguish..." "Pa~n~naa (f.)...intelligence, comprising all the higher faculties of cognition, 'intellect as conversant with general truths'..." Scott: Do the connections between these words suggest anything about the answer to the question regarding 'conceptual right view'? If there can be a 'making known' at the level of concepts, does this suggest the workings of pa~n~naa? In the Cuulavedalla Sutta (MN44), it is stated that "[r]ight view and right intention are included in the aggregate of wisdom." In the Muulapariyaaya Sutta (MN1), while discussing the 'untaught ordinary person', the quality of 'conceiving' is demonstrated. In note 4 it is suggested that the "untaught ordinary person (assutavaa puthujjhana)... possesses neither learning nor spiritual accomplishment in the Dhamma of the noble ones, and allows himself to be dominated by the multitude of defilement and wrong views." In note 5, "MA explains that the ordinary person seizes upon the conventional expression 'it is earth', and applying this to the object, perceives it through a 'perversion of perception' (sa~n~navipallaasa)." In note 7, "MA states that one who fully understands earth does so by three types of full understanding: the full understanding of the known (naatapari~n~naa) - the definition of the earth element by way of its unique characteristic, function, manifestation, and proximate cause; the full understanding by scrutinisation (tiira.napari~n~naa) - the contemplation of the earth element by way of the three general characteristics of impermanence, suffering, and non-self; and the full understanding of abandonment (pahaanapari~n~naa) - the abandoning of desire and lust for the earth element through the supreme path (of arahantship)." Scott: Does this imply a series of stages? Is 'naatapari~n~naa' an intellectual understanding which precedes the other two? Sincerely, Scott. #72993 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jun 4, 2007 1:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. re: Jhana as necessity to enlightenment upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 6/4/07 12:05:39 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > agreed, but the issue was control. Can one control cittas right now? > Nina. > ======================== What is already arisen - what is present - is beyond control. What arises now, however, is one condition for what will arise in the future. Being mindful now (or not) has future effects. Paying attention now (or not) has future effects. Relinquishing now (or not) has future effects. There is, however, no self/agent who controls anything. There is no "one" to control content or character of states of mind. But current conditions, including intention and effort/energy have consequences. These are the realities underlying the conventional notion of control. The underlying reality is complex, Nina, but the matter is simpler at the conventionallevel. Informally, we can, even in very short order, "control" our thoughts. We can quickly cut short and turn away from an unwholesome train of thought, as the Buddha specifically taught us to do. We can "avert the mind". Doing so, of course, is conditioned activity. All activity is conditioned, and there is no actor involved in any of this. But care must be taken to not push beyond the facts to a *conventional* idea of no control, and thereby resisting guarding the senses and other important activities. Misapplying facts about dhammas to conventional activity is a danger. It is an improper mixing of levels. It is analogous to applying truths about quantum reality to the macroscopic, "everyday world", not as the underlying reality but for direct application. It does not work - the levels are different. An easier analogy: It is analogous to applying facts about hydrogen and oxygen to water. Relatively speaking, the hydrogen and the oxygen are the underlying realities, and there is no water other than the hydrogen and the oxygen. But neither the hydrogen nor the oxygen will quench thirst or put out fires! With metta, Howard #72994 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 4, 2007 7:01 am Subject: Listening to the Dhamma, Ch1, no 2. nilovg Dear friends, Upasena had listened to the Buddha’s teaching and developed right understanding of nåma and rúpa so that attachment to the “self” could be completely eradicated. What we call dying occurs at each moment: the body consists of rúpas which arise and then fall away very rapidly. Rúpas which have fallen away are replaced by new ones and therefore we do not notice that rúpas are impermanent. Even so what we call mind are nåmas which arise and fall away. We may think of the fact that everything in life is impermanent, but this is not the direct realisation of the truth ofimpermanence. The Buddha taught the way to develop the understandingwhich can penetrate the truth of impermanence, the arising and falling awayof nåma and rúpa. The development of this understanding will take a longtime, it may take many lives. However, the development of understanding begins with listening to the Buddha’s teachings. During our journey in Thailand we listened to the Dhamma in different locations, under different circumstances. We experienced a great deal of hospitality and thoughtfulness from our friends in Thailand. When we were in Bangkok Khun Banyong Jongjitrnant and Khun Sukol invited us for a lunch together with Acharn Sujin, so that we could meet old friends and new friends. Acharn Sujin is our true friend in Dhamma and our teacher who explains the Dhamma with tireless efforts. We met Jack Tippayachan and his wife Oj who had come from Los Angeles together with other friends, and later on Pinna Indorf from Singapore whom we knew already for a long time joined us. We spoke with Acharn Sujin about the practice of Dhamma when problems arise concerning the behaviour of those who are close to us. It is difficult to be patient under all circumstances. We were reminded to be an “understanding person”. The troubles in the world arise through lack of understanding. When we understand that our experiences at this moment arise because of the appropriate conditions we will be less inclined to correct other people. When they say unpleasant things or act in a disagreeable way they do so because of inclinations which have been accumulated from the past and therefore, how could we change them? ******* Nina. #72995 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 4, 2007 7:05 am Subject: Conditions Ch. 2, no 8. nilovg Dear friends, When someone gives us a delicious sweet, it seems that we cannot help liking it as soon as we taste it, and that attachment is bound to arise. Then there is unwise attention to the object. But there can be wise attention shortly afterwards, for example, when we truly appreciate the kindness of the giver. Or we may consider that flavour and the enjoyment of it do not last, that all realities are impermanent. When someone speaks harsh words to us the sound is an unpleasant object and we may have aversion towards it. Then there is unwise attention. There can be wise attention if we, instead of having aversion, see the benefit of having compassion with the person who spoke harsh words. When we are in great pain we may at first have aversion and then there is unwise attention. But there can be wise attention when we understand that pain is vipåka, produced by kamma, that it is unavoidable. We may consider the impermanence and frailty of the body. It is very beneficial if there can be mindfulness of whatever reality appears. Our body is constituted by different rúpa- elements, and when there is pain the characteristics of hardness or heat may appear. These can be very painful, but instead of thinking of “our pain” there can be mindfulness of realities. Then we can see that hardness or heat are rúpas which arise because of their own conditions and that there is no self who has power over them. Painful feeling is nåma which arises because of its own conditions, it is beyond control. When there is aversion towards pain, aversion can be the object of mindfulness so that it can be seen as only a conditioned nåma. Only by right understanding of realities can there be less clinging to “my body” or “my mind”. When there is right understanding there is truly wise attention. We should not only consider object-condition but also the other kinds of conditions which have been classified in the “Paììhåna”, so that we will understand the meaning of anattå, non-self. When we consider object-condition we can be reminded to be aware of whatever reality presents itself, no matter whether it is a pleasant object or an unpleasant object, no matter whether it is kusala dhamma or akusala dhamma. We attach great importance to the kind of object we experience, but all our experiences are conditioned, beyond control. ******* Nina. #72996 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 4, 2007 7:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. re: Jhana as necessity to enlightenment nilovg Dear Sukin, I agree with you. Perhaps we could say: some anaagaamis and some arahats would be naturally inclined to developing jhana, wheras some others may not be. People's dispositions are different and there is no rule. Ven. Bodhi's teacher, Ven. Nyanaponika thought that the first mundane jhaana was necessary even for the attainment of the first stage of enlightenment. Ven. Bodhi made an earnest study of many suttas and came to a different conclusion. I think that going into this too much distracts us from what is necessary at this moment, you know! Nina. Op 4-jun-2007, om 0:44 heeft sukinder het volgende geschreven: > To me if B.B. had argued instead that the practice prior to > Sotapatti, Sakadagami and Anagami required jhana, this would make > more sense > in light of the above conclusion that it is only after Anagami that > there is > perfect concentration. Though of course in light of what I understand > Satipatthana/Vipassana to be, namely the 'one way', jhana is not > necessary > at all.. #72997 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 4, 2007 7:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sammaadi.t.thi study corner nilovg Dear Scott, I am glad you go over the Muulapariyaaya Sutta and Co, I just mentioned to TG. Very useful. > naatapari~n~naa is already insight, thus not merely intellectual > understanding. I quote from Survey, Ch 32 (p. 345): BTW, right intention is not a Path factor. The translator means: right thinking, sammaa-vayama. Together with right view it is the wisdom of the eightfold Path. Nina. Op 4-jun-2007, om 14:17 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: > Does this imply a series of stages? Is 'naatapari~n~naa' an > intellectual understanding which precedes the other two? #72998 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 4, 2007 7:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clinging to kusala? nilovg Hi James, I do not mean determinism. But there are many conditions for their arising and all this is complex. I try to explain in my 'Conditions'. The past plays a role, also friendship. Listening to the Dhamma helps much for the development of kusala. There are many degrees of equanimity, and many aspects. See Vis. Ch IV, 156-166. Nina. Op 3-jun-2007, om 0:12 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > But if you are > claiming that kusala and akusala are 'beyond the sphere of influence' > then I would have to disagree. That would be determinism and would > make Buddhism useless. > > James: I don't agree with your general use of the word "equanimity". > You muddy its meaning if you apply it to so many things. Equanimity > is a specific mental state of a very high and refined nature. > Equanimity is one of the brahma-viharas. Anything less than that > isn't equanimity, its 'pseudo-equanimity' (only appears on the outside > to be equanimity). #72999 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 4, 2007 7:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Clinging to kusala.....? nilovg Hi Larry, We read in the suttas that the dhamma is subtle, deep, difficult to understand. I do not see control in this expression, on the contrary. We cannot make something difficult into something easy. Remember the sutta on the knife handle: one holds it each day but the wearing away is hardly perceptible, so slow. The practice is ciira kaala bhaavana, taking an endless time. Think of the Theriis who had to accumulate age enduring merit before they could attain enlightenment. Nina. Op 3-jun-2007, om 16:10 heeft Larry het volgende geschreven: > Okay, but it isn't quite right to say understanding is difficult. > "Difficulty" implies control.