#73800 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Jun 27, 2007 4:32 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Death - just like now! (Alan Driver's funeral) [1] buddhatrue Hi Howard (and Sarah), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > ============================ > I think there are *degrees* to things. Until arahantship, mindstates > are certainly imperfect, but they still can be relatively good, and they can > become better! Motives vary, even from moment to moment. Perfection isn't > required for progress, and, in fact, if there were already perfection there would be > no need for progress. We begin where we are, and there is no other option. > So, imperfection is to be recognized - it *needs* to be recognized, but we then > need to DO something about that... I'm not quite sure what you are driving at. I can't tell if you agree or disagree with me. I `think' you are saying that this is a subject which one shouldn't generalize about- some people have pure intentions and some people have impure intentions. While it is true that people's intentions differ, I think that this is a subject which one can generalize about. The Buddha's teaching has two goals: Nibbana and, failing to achieve Nibbana, a fortunate rebirth: "Now, if anyone would develop these four frames of reference in this way for seven years, one of two fruits can be expected for him: either gnosis right here & now, or — if there be any remnant of clinging-sustenance — non-return. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.22.0.than.html "There is the case where an individual keeps pervading the first direction1 — as well as the second direction, the third, & the fourth — with an awareness imbued with good will. Thus he keeps pervading above, below, & all around, everywhere & in every respect the all-encompassing cosmos with an awareness imbued with good will: abundant, expansive, immeasurable, free from hostility, free from ill will. He savors that, longs for that, finds satisfaction through that. Staying there — fixed on that, dwelling there often, not falling away from that — then when he dies he reappears in conjunction with the devas of Brahma's retinue. The devas of Brahma's retinue, monks, have a life-span of an eon. A run-of-the-mill person having stayed there, having used up all the life-span of those devas, goes to hell, to the animal womb, to the state of the hungry shades. But a disciple of the Blessed One, having stayed there, having used up all the life-span of those devas, is unbound right in that state of being. This, monks, is the difference, this the distinction, this the distinguishing factor, between an educated disciple of the noble ones and an uneducated run-of-the-mill person, when there is a destination, a reappearing. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.125.than.html But while beings who have not developed [mindfulness of] death fall victims to fear, horror and confusion at the time of death as though suddenly seized by wild beasts, spirits, snakes, robbers, or murderers, he dies undeluded and fearless without falling into any such state. And if he does not attain the deathless here and now, he is at least headed for a happy destiny on the break up of the body. Vism. VIII, 41 Howard, it is not necessary to look at everything through "anatta glasses". It is not necessary to evaluate everything in terms of how close or how far it is from the wrong view of self. This is a lop-sided view of the Dhamma taught by KS. For example, Sarah wrote something silly about, "Of course there can also be 'trying to' reflect on death and so on wrapped up in attachment too. The clinging pops in all the time." The clinging pops in all the time?? Just who is she kidding??? THE CLINGING IS CONSTANT! Those who believe that they can overcome wrong view of self by pretending that they don't have it, or trying hard not to have it, or making no effort so that they don't have it, or crossing their fingers so that they don't have it ;-)), are just kidding themselves. It is a non-issue for those still treading the path. Don't do evil, do only good, and purify the mind- and anatta will take care of itself. Metta, James #73801 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Jun 27, 2007 4:45 pm Subject: Re: Energy and Impermanence buddhatrue Hi TG, I have read bits and pieces of this thread with some interest. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@... wrote: > > > Contacts are create, > By energies push and pull, > Four Great Elements can show, > This to any fool. > > In accordance with conditions, > The things that form take shape, > Conditions are dynamic, > All things will surely break. > > > TG You might be interested in reading this meditation taught by Ajahn Lee where he incorporates the purification of the Four Great Elements (Rupa) along with purification of the mind (not typical but worthwhile nevertheless): http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai/lee/divinemantra.html Metta, James ps. I know of this because Ajahn Lee is my favorite Buddhist monk. I even keep a picture of Ajahn Lee on my Buddha shrine next to the Buddha statue. I couldn't say enough good things about Ajahn Lee! #73802 From: connie Date: Wed Jun 27, 2007 6:58 pm Subject: Re: Death - just like now! (Alan Driver's funeral) [1] nichiconn dear hopeful, James: Let me ask you a question: Do you wish for others a fortunate rebirth? connie: Dispeller ch4 (418-577) [Classification of the Truths (Saccavibha'nga)] 464. ... Why many words? Is it not that whatever pain there is Anywhere here exists no more at all at any time Without rebirth? And that is why the greatest of sages Has stated birth as first of all the things that make up suffering. (1) Birth 454. Now comes explanation in the highest sense. For in the highest sense it is the aggregates that become manifest, not beings. And herein, KHANDHAANA.M ("of the aggregates") is to be understood as the taking of one [aggregate] in the single-constituent existence, of four in the four-constituent existence and of five in the five-constituent existence. PAATUBHAAVO ("manifestation") is arising. AAYATANAAMA.M ("of the bases"): here there should be understood the inclusion of the bases as they arise in this or that [existence]. PA.TILAABHO ("obtaining") is manifestation in continuity; for these are called "obtained" only when they become manifest. (4) Birth, Old Age and Death 482: Furthermore these, namely, birth, ageing and death, are like murderous enemies who go about seeking an opportunity. For it is just as when three enemies of a man are going about looking for an opportunity. One might say: 'I shall speak the praises of such and such a forest and I shall go there with him; there will be no difficulty for me in this.' The second might say: 'When you have gone there with him I shall strike him and weaken him; there will be no difficulty for me in this.' The third might say: 'When he has been weakened by your striking him, my responsibility will be to cut off his head with a sharp knife.' Having said this they might do so. Herein, it should be understood that like the time when the first enemy, after speaking the praises of the forest, goes there with him, is the function of birth which is causing him to be reborn anywhere after he has been ejected [by death] from the circle of his companions {30} and relatives. Like the second's action of weakening him by striking him is the function of ageing which is the cause of his dependence on others and of being bed-ridden, by attacking the aggregates that have been born. Like the third's cutting off his head with a sharp knife is the function of death which is the arrival of the destruction of life. 483: Furthermore, the suffering of birth should be regarded as the entry into a great wilderness full of dangers; the suffering of ageing should be regarded as the weakness of one who is deprived of food and drink there; the suffering of death should be regarded as the accomplishment {31} of his ruin and disaster by wild beasts, etc. when he is weak and is struck down and attacked while changing his posture. {30} Suhajja; not in PED. See A iv 96; M iii 266; Sn 37. {31} Aapaadana; not in PED. See Vis 64. Still, i think i know what the question is asking, so, a short story from Dispeller, ch. 16: Classification of Knowledge: 2248. The ruler of the earth, wandering about, having put on his head the chamber pot, is the destiny of whom? It is the destiny of one with right means. He understands that while unable to give result owing to being inhibited by unsuccessful means in this way, they ripen when a successful means is arrived at. In this way the good deeds which, being inhibited by the four kinds of failure, do not ripen, do so on arrival at the four kinds of success. 2249. Herein, this is a simile which brings out the true meaning. It seems that a king became somewhat angered with a minister and had him chained in prison. His relatives knew the king was angry and said nothing. When the sharpness of this anger was abated, they made known to the king the innocence of the minister. The king freed him and restored to him his original post. Then there was no end to the gifts which came to him from the various quarters. People could not cope with them. 2250. [453] Herein, like the time of his being chained in prison when the king was somewhat angered is the time of the ordinary man's being reborn in hell. Then like the time of his being restored to his original post after the king has been made to perceive by the relatives is the time when he is reborn in heaven. Like the being unable to cope with the arrival at the four knds of success by leading him on from happy station to happy station, from the divine world to the human world and from the human world to the divine world by giving happy result for even a hundred thousand aeons. peace, connie A point is always ready to receive the falling stone. -- Narada #73803 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jun 27, 2007 3:20 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Death - just like now! (Alan Driver's funeral) [1] upasaka_howard Hi, James - In a message dated 6/27/07 7:36:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@... writes: > Hi Howard (and Sarah), > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > >============================ > > I think there are *degrees* to things. Until arahantship, > mindstates > >are certainly imperfect, but they still can be relatively good, and > they can > >become better! Motives vary, even from moment to moment. Perfection > isn't > >required for progress, and, in fact, if there were already > perfection there would be > >no need for progress. We begin where we are, and there is no other > option. > >So, imperfection is to be recognized - it *needs* to be recognized, > but we then > >need to DO something about that... > > I'm not quite sure what you are driving at. I can't tell if you agree > or disagree with me. > --------------------------------------- Howard: I agree with you. What I wrote before tended towards Sarah's perspective on matters.What I wrote here gives what I consider a proper balance. --------------------------------------- I `think' you are saying that this is a subject> > which one shouldn't generalize about- some people have pure intentions > and some people have impure intentions. > -------------------------------------- Howard: No, actually I was thinking in terms of one person at various moments. My point was that generally we are beset by sense of self, that this is where we are, this is where we begin, and it is from this very state that the path out begins - provided that we ACT. I'm sure we see this in the same way. --------------------------------------- While it is true that > > people's intentions differ, I think that this is a subject which one > can generalize about. The Buddha's teaching has two goals: Nibbana > and, failing to achieve Nibbana, a fortunate rebirth: > > "Now, if anyone would develop these four frames of reference in this > way for seven years, one of two fruits can be expected for him: either > gnosis right here &now, or — if there be any remnant of > clinging-sustenance — non-return. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.22.0.than.html > > "There is the case where an individual keeps pervading the first > direction1 — as well as the second direction, the third, &the fourth > — with an awareness imbued with good will. Thus he keeps pervading > above, below, &all around, everywhere &in every respect the > all-encompassing cosmos with an awareness imbued with good will: > abundant, expansive, immeasurable, free from hostility, free from ill > will. He savors that, longs for that, finds satisfaction through that. > Staying there — fixed on that, dwelling there often, not falling away > from that — then when he dies he reappears in conjunction with the > devas of Brahma's retinue. The devas of Brahma's retinue, monks, have > a life-span of an eon. A run-of-the-mill person having stayed there, > having used up all the life-span of those devas, goes to hell, to the > animal womb, to the state of the hungry shades. But a disciple of the > Blessed One, having stayed there, having used up all the life-span of > those devas, is unbound right in that state of being. This, monks, is > the difference, this the distinction, this the distinguishing factor, > between an educated disciple of the noble ones and an uneducated > run-of-the-mill person, when there is a destination, a reappearing. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.125.than.html > > But while beings who have not developed [mindfulness of] death fall > victims to fear, horror and confusion at the time of death as though > suddenly seized by wild beasts, spirits, snakes, robbers, or > murderers, he dies undeluded and fearless without falling into any > such state. And if he does not attain the deathless here and now, he > is at least headed for a happy destiny on the break up of the body. > Vism. VIII, 41 > > Howard, it is not necessary to look at everything through "anatta > glasses". It is not necessary to evaluate everything in terms of how > close or how far it is from the wrong view of self. > ------------------------------------------- Howard: I hope that what I said above clarifies what I was after. But anatta is fact, so why should it be ignored? I'm confused, James. ------------------------------------------ This is a > > lop-sided view of the Dhamma taught by KS. > ------------------------------------------- Howard: WHAT is? The view of not-self? THAT is the Buddha's view, and I see it as fact. But the idea that this means that we are helpless to intentionally achieve things is,IMO, a perversion of that view,and I do not share that idea. ----------------------------------------- For example, Sarah wrote> > something silly about, "Of course there can also be 'trying to' > reflect on death and so on wrapped up in attachment too. The clinging > pops in all the time." The clinging pops in all the time?? Just who > is she kidding??? THE CLINGING IS CONSTANT! Those who believe that > they can overcome wrong view of self by pretending that they don't > have it, or trying hard not to have it, or making no effort so that > they don't have it, or crossing their fingers so that they don't have > it ;-)), are just kidding themselves. It is a non-issue for those > still treading the path. --------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, clinging is frequent, and common, and so what?? That'swhere we begin,and we need to "go elsewhere". Don't we agree? ------------------------------------------- > > Don't do evil, do only good, and purify the mind- and anatta will take > care of itself. ---------------------------------------- Howard: Of course, because that is the practice to uproot the defilements. And even if we didn't do this, anatta "takes care of itself" because it is fact. -------------------------------------- > > Metta, > James > ==================== With metta, Howard #73804 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Jun 27, 2007 8:36 pm Subject: Re: Death - just like now! (Alan Driver's funeral) [1] buddhatrue Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > ------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I hope that what I said above clarifies what I was after. But anatta > is fact, so why should it be ignored? I'm confused, James. > ------------------------------------------ Yes, I think you have clarified your position somewhat. (Suggestion: don't debate on Sarah's terms, debate on your own terms. Otherwise, you give Sarah the upper-hand and corrupt the message you are trying to get across. ;-)) I do not mean that anatta should be ignored; I just believe it should be given the proper perspective. The Dhamma is a progressive training and the role of anatta comes toward the end of the path, not the beginning. As householders, it is ridiculous for most of us to even be seriously considering anatta. Most householders have corrupt morality, weak or non-existent Samadhi, and zero real insight. To say to householders that they must keep anatta in mind before practicing the Buddha's teaching is patently absurd. As you wrote in a wonderful post not that long ago, "Howard" only `begins' to disappear in the midst of the deepest meditation, after 45 minutes or so of sustained concentration. All things need to be put in the proper perspective. Metta, James #73805 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 27, 2007 9:30 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Energy and Impermanence sarahprocter... For TG (& All), A Masterpiece! An 'energy'-feast! yum-tious, sumptuous....:-)) But 'no controversy'? On DSG, a fantasy!!!! It seems your definition Changes its' position! Sometimes it's 'mass' And Einstein's jazz! Sometimes it's 'friction'- A vibrant predilection! Sometimes 'conditions'- More suppositions! Sometimes 'all things', With a few extra strings! Sometimes 'conditioned'- Again re-positioned! I nearly forgot 'All' - The Sabba, Sabba call! Now,'e'thing experienced', right? Sorry, just don't see the light:-( Metta, Sarah ******* --- TGrand458@... wrote: > For Sarah, (All), > > > Energy is simple, > No controversy here, > Your objection to the term, > Is surely very queer. > > Energy is anything, > With power to affect, > Its merely what conditions do, > Not new with all respect. > > "Energy" however, > Makes it very clear, > That conditions are dynamic, > Moving to and near. > > Everything experienced, > Is energy in progress, > The push and pull of such, > Impermanence at its best. > > The body wears away, > The mind it wears out too, > As energies disintegrate, > The things that once we knew. > > By insight what we want, > Is to understand what's norm, > Impermanence is not magic, > Its contacts changing form. > > Contacts are create, > By energies push and pull, > Four Great Elements can show, > This to any fool. > > In accordance with conditions, > The things that form take shape, > Conditions are dynamic, > All things will surely break. #73806 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 27, 2007 10:09 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Death - just like now! (Alan Driver's funeral) [1] sarahprocter... Hi James, --- buddhatrue wrote: > Yes, I think you have clarified your position somewhat. (Suggestion: > don't debate on Sarah's terms, debate on your own terms. Otherwise, > you give Sarah the upper-hand and corrupt the message you are trying > to get across. ;-)) .... S: LOL, love you too, James;-)) Ok, as it's the holiday season, a limerick for you: ***** I once had a pal called James Who loved to debate and debate and debae From Egypt to Taipei Hong Kong to U.S.A. He'd debate and debate and debate..... ***** I haven't read the discussion yet, but enjoy your holiday whilst keeping a close check on us all....:-) Hi to Sebastien and your parents. Metta, Sarah ======== #73807 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Jun 27, 2007 10:36 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Death - just like now! (Alan Driver's funeral) [1] buddhatrue Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi James, > > --- buddhatrue wrote: > > Yes, I think you have clarified your position somewhat. (Suggestion: > > don't debate on Sarah's terms, debate on your own terms. Otherwise, > > you give Sarah the upper-hand and corrupt the message you are trying > > to get across. ;-)) > .... > S: LOL, love you too, James;-)) James: :-)) Love you too. Nothing personal. :-) > > Ok, as it's the holiday season, a limerick for you: > ***** > I once had a pal called James > Who loved to debate and debate and debae > From Egypt to Taipei > Hong Kong to U.S.A. > He'd debate and debate and debate..... > ***** James: Uh oh, the heat must be getting to you! ;-)) Cute limerick. BTW, I could refer to what we do here as "discussion" if that makes you more comfortable. ;-)) > > I haven't read the discussion yet, but enjoy your holiday whilst keeping a > close check on us all....:-) James: Just had some time now, but probably not for long. > > Hi to Sebastien and your parents. James: Thanks! Will do! :-) > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======== > Metta, James #73808 From: "icarofranca" Date: Thu Jun 28, 2007 1:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Energy and Impermanence icarofranca Ah!!! Bhikkuni´s Poetry!!! Meet Sarah Abbott - the wisest woman in all Galaxy!!!!! Meet TGrand, the more skilled , profound and sincere Neo-Positivist at West of Utopia! Metta, Ícaro --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > For TG (& All), > > A Masterpiece! > An 'energy'-feast! > > #73809 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jun 28, 2007 1:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: flashbacks and guilt sarahprocter... Dear Scott, (& Mike) --- Scott Duncan wrote: > And, its weird, I initially feel like giving back your kind words but > you mean them, so I'll take them. The 'caring' comes and goes, eh. ... S: Yes, as Mike suggested with his humming-birds, many, many different cittas in a caring process:-). (Mike, I was at the beach last week and for a change, there was a team of workers clearing all the debris from a lovely part of the beach, only accessible at low-tide and usually neglected. I smiled and was friendly and even helped pick up a few bottles and plastic bags from the sea in support. Metta? Huh! Mostly trying to encourage them so that I can walk on a nice clean beach....'strategic metta'!!) > While dying, in response to my grief-stricken promises to try to be a > good dad (I thought the best parent was going away), Andy said she > thought I would be a good dad. I doubted it, but she was kind to me > even while dying. Another example of kindness. I went back to her > words from time to time. I watched Andy have to come to terms with > her own clinging and letting go of everything. .... S: I'm sure you were a great support. Even so, to give up your kindergarten child, family and all must be very, very difficult.....but she was probably more concerned for you all than for herself and she clearly had confidence you'd do just fine. ... >And, I guess this must > be said, there is no Andy anymore. To whichever being the next citta > arose - no more Andy. .... S: and in an ultimate sense, there never was Andy. As Nina quoted (#73440): "The break up of the aggregates (khandaana.m bhedo)....In the highest sense only the aggregates break up. Nothing caled a being dies." And isn't like now? Aggregates breaking up all the time as we speak. No Scott, no Sarah, in spite of the intricate web we've weaved. And as the cittas you called Andy roll on, as KS suggested at Alan's funeral, they may be smiling as we grieve.... Thanks for sharing, Scott. Metta, Sarah ======== #73810 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jun 28, 2007 2:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Energy and Impermanence sarahprocter... Hi Icaro (& Claudia)!!! --- icarofranca wrote: > Ah!!! > > Bhikkuni´s Poetry!!! > > > Meet Sarah Abbott - the wisest woman in all Galaxy!!!!! > > Meet TGrand, the more skilled , profound and sincere Neo-Positivist > at West of Utopia! .... S: LOL! Lol! Why not join in? I'm sure your own poetry would really outshine our simple efforts!! How's your life and dhamma study these days? We have another member from Brazil called Claudia. This was her last message. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/72236 Perhaps you know each other already? Metta, Sarah ======== #73811 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Jun 28, 2007 5:05 am Subject: Re: Maatikaa translation scottduncan2 Dear connie, c: "Even a Grammar in the making :) and my attempt at quilting, with most of the pieces from that site:" Scott: A Grammar! Wow! "...mindfulness that *there is a body*there are feelings*there is a mind*there is Dhamma (in various) things* is established in him just as far as (is necessary for) a full measure of knowledge and a full measure of mindfulness, and he dwells independent, and without being attached to anything in the world." Scott: Mindfulness only as much as is necessary for pa~n~na to become established. 'A body' - is this ruupa? Feelings, mind - naama? Does this imply some sort of minimum level of sati? Sati "has 'not floating away' as characteristic, unforgetfulness as its function, guarding, or the state of facing the object, as its manifestation, firm perception, or application of mindfulness as regards the body, etc., as proximate cause. It should be regarded as a door-post from being firmly established in the object, and as a door-keeper from guarding the door of the senses," (Atthasaalinii, p. 161). Mindfulness arises and establishes an appropriate distance from the object which facilitates pa~n~na. Attachment does not arise at such moments. Perhaps this is 'the island' in the flood. How do you see this? Sincerely, Scott. #73812 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Jun 28, 2007 5:21 am Subject: [dsg] Re: flashbacks and guilt scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, I appreciate your reply: S: "'...and in an ultimate sense, there never was Andy. As Nina quoted (#73440): "The break up of the aggregates (khandaana.m bhedo)....In the highest sense only the aggregates break up. Nothing called a being dies.' "And isn't like now? Aggregates breaking up all the time as we speak. No Scott, no Sarah, in spite of the intricate web we've weaved." Scott: That's right. Have you ever had the fleeting experience of this? Where you get the sense that it is all like now except that now is just the flow of arising and falling away? All of it is here except that there really is no one at all in it? S: "And as the cittas you called Andy roll on, as KS suggested at Alan's funeral, they may be smiling as we grieve...." Scott: This depends, I think. Is there rememberance of a past which extends beyond the realm in which a particular 'flux' has arisen? Is it a 'happy realm'? I wonder if such a statement, not to be a wet blanket, might be read to indicate that the difference between one existence which ends and another which begins is as diverse as the difference between joy and grief. If there is joy, it may not be connected to a past, unless thinking about a past is occuring. I think that consciousness in some realms does include awareness of 'beings' co-existing in other realms, and this can also includes remembrance of past connections. This would be due to conditions and we might not ourselves be in a position, due as well to conditions, to know. Do you know what I mean? What do you think? Sincerely, Scott. #73813 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jun 28, 2007 5:21 am Subject: Death - just like now! (Alan Driver's funeral) [5] sarahprocter... Dear Nina, Ramesh & all, After viewing the ashes... ...... S: We feel that at least he understood quite a lot of dhamma and we helped him in many ways, so no bad feeling, so that makes it much easier. KS Yes,we can see it's useless to be sad. Even if one cannot help for some [time], but anyway, when right understanding arises, one should know the difference between akusala and kusala. The Buddha told us about the uselessness of having akusala. We should follow his teaching. Right understanding saves one's life... *** J: (speaking to S.) Earlier Ivan made a comment that he couldn't believe it was Alan in the coffin and now that we can see the remains of his bones laid out in a small tray, about the size of a tea-tray. Ajahn was saying 'well now, what more would you say about this?', because here the body has been reduced to something about one-tenth of the size, something you can hold in the hand. "Is this Alan?" [she asked] *** S: It needs something like this to help us to remind us in the kusala way. KS: Because of the shortness of life. Because [if] it's only in the book that you think that life is short, but when it's not in the book it reminds better.. No worry! (laughing) S: Isn't it then out of fear because you suddenly realize life is short, so we remember kusala? KS: Because people keep thinking of kusala deeds, keep thinking, no action yet. But when life is as short as this, one should put it in action. *** S:.... They were saying 'what a waste'...if someone was doing good works or was young.... KS: One lives only in one's own world of seeing and hearing and thinking. One should realize this, not just thinking of 'waste' and 'wasting' and 'the loss and things' like that. It doesn't help. S: I think people spend a lot of time speculating about other lives. KS: That’s why we need more understanding of realities - the demarcation of absolute truth and the conventional truth. ***** Metta, Sarah ===== #73814 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jun 28, 2007 6:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Virtue sarahprocter... Hi Robert A, --- Robert wrote: > Hello Sarah, > > Thank you once again for your reply. > > I think that we both have made our case as best we can for our > respective positions on this and what remains is for us to consider > the other's point of view. I will consider everything you have said, > and maybe someday I will see things differently than I do. > > I appreciate your efforts on my behalf. ... S: Likewise, Robert. It's been a very, very active thread.... thx for your patience in hearing me out. Metta, Sarah ====== #73815 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jun 28, 2007 2:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Death - just like now! (Alan Driver's funeral) [1] upasaka_howard Hi, James - In a message dated 6/27/07 11:36:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > >------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > I hope that what I said above clarifies what I was after. But > anatta > >is fact, so why should it be ignored? I'm confused, James. > >------------------------------------------ > > Yes, I think you have clarified your position somewhat. (Suggestion: > don't debate on Sarah's terms, debate on your own terms. Otherwise, > you give Sarah the upper-hand and corrupt the message you are trying > to get across. ;-)) -------------------------------------------------- Howard: I wasn't debating on Sarah's terms, or on anyone's terms except my own. In fact I wasn't debating. LOL! I wrote to you and Sarah exactly what I think. Sarah liked it, possibly interpreting it a bit more towards her perspective than was intended, though possibly not, and it seems that you interpreted it in some way other than what was intended. I originally said exactly what I mean. I was only addressing a particular remark by Sarah that suggested her acting free of sense of self and unmotivated by wishes for herself, as though that is something we can simply choose to do. (I don't believe we can do that at all by mere desire, but we *can* intentionally cultivate the mind so that,in service to ourself(!), sense of self is eventually weakened and finally uprooted entirely.) My response to Sarah addressed only the issue of our being beset by sense of self, which I do indeed believe is true. I don't infer hopelessness from that, however - far from it. The fact of being imprisoned merely indicates the need to escape, but we are totally sunk if we do not admit to our imprisonment. I don't see anything in what I wrote that you should object to James. I'd be very curious as to what you think is false in what I wrote. To save you the need to access that post, I'll give the core content right here: ___________________________ Sarah, don't you think your "appreciating life....and death now, at each moment" is also about "you"? Of course, I don't refer only to "Sarah" when I ask this. Nearly everything we do until full liberation smacks of "me", I'd say, and I think it useful to keep that in mind in order to not lose sight of the goal and to keep ourselves appropriately "humble". Of course, we do have our better moments - even some occasional, very pure moments, but for the most part we are all enmeshed in self, shackled by self, and fooled by self. We need at first, I think, to avoid the worst of "being fooled" by not underestimating the power of self-sense over our perception and emotion - the power to warp and pervert these. ---------------------------------------------- > > I do not mean that anatta should be ignored; I just believe it should > be given the proper perspective. The Dhamma is a progressive training > and the role of anatta comes toward the end of the path, not the > beginning. As householders, it is ridiculous for most of us to even > be seriously considering anatta. Most householders have corrupt > morality, weak or non-existent Samadhi, and zero real insight. To say > to householders that they must keep anatta in mind before practicing > the Buddha's teaching is patently absurd. ---------------------------------------- Howard: Well, THIS householder does keep it in mind, and I have found it usefu l to do so. I consider it to be the core discovery of the Buddha and the central fact of his Dhamma. One of course need not "believe" in anatta in order to cultivate the mind and eventually come to *know* the truth of anatta. One needs only carry out the practice - which I certainly do. But I do find the tilakkana at the center of my thoughts much of the time, I am intrigued by them, I find depths within depths as I consider them, and I find their contemplation very helpful, very supportive, to me. To each his own, James. --------------------------------------- > > As you wrote in a wonderful post not that long ago, "Howard" only > `begins' to disappear in the midst of the deepest meditation, after 45 > minutes or so of sustained concentration. All things need to be put > in the proper perspective. ----------------------------------------- Howard: Actually, the most dramatic sense of absence of personal identity/self occurred at a retreat that was NOT whileIwasin the midst of meditating. But, it was, certainly, DUE to having been extensively and deeply meditating. In any case, I am unpersuaded of anything improper in my perspective. Could you point out what you find to be "off"? ------------------------------------------- > > Metta, > James > ====================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) #73816 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 28, 2007 7:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sila Corner - to Han nilovg Dear Han, I would be os glad if you can write about the discussions in Bgk. Don't forget, I am also a fan of yours. Nina. Op 25-jun-2007, om 3:05 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > I confirm that > I will be at the hotel at the appointed time on 4 > July. #73817 From: connie Date: Thu Jun 28, 2007 7:57 am Subject: Re: flashbacks and guilt nichiconn S: and in an ultimate sense, there never was Andy. As Nina quoted (#73440): "The break up of the aggregates (khandaana.m bhedo)....In the highest sense only the aggregates break up. Nothing caled a being dies." And isn't like now? Aggregates breaking up all the time as we speak. No Scott, no Sarah, in spite of the intricate web we've weaved. connie: quotes from Old Age, book 4, Sn: You dream and meet someone and when you wake they've gone. When someone you love dies it's just the same: I see you hear you call your name. You die and now there's just the name. Greedy people get stuck with sorrow, lamentation, meanness. The wise forget about owning things, wander about in peace. From: http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/Sutta-nipataBM6.pdf c. #73818 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jun 28, 2007 4:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: flashbacks and guilt upasaka_howard Hi, Connie (and "S" - Scott or Sarah?, and Nina) - In a message dated 6/28/07 10:58:17 AM Eastern Daylight Time, connieparker@... writes: > S: and in an ultimate sense, there never was Andy. As Nina quoted > (#73440): "The break up of the aggregates (khandaana.m bhedo)....In the > highest sense only the aggregates break up. Nothing caled a being dies." > > And isn't like now? Aggregates breaking up all the time as we speak. No > Scott, no Sarah, in spite of the intricate web we've weaved. > > connie: quotes from Old Age, book 4, Sn: > You dream > and meet someone > and when you wake > they've gone. > When someone you love > dies > it's just the same: > I see you > hear you > call your name. > You die > and now there's just > the name. > Greedy people > get stuck with > sorrow, lamentation, > meanness. > The wise forget about > owning things, > wander about > in peace. > > From: http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/Sutta-nipataBM6.pdf > c. > ======================== Connie, it's coincidental that I read this today. Yesterday, in the midst of my first meditation, before full absorption but "on the cusp", there was experienced a "scene" as if real and present: "It was a bright, sunny day about 40 years ago, and I was driving (my wife was sensed to be a passenger) on Belmont Avenue about to cross City Line Avenue from Bala Cynwyd into Philadelphia. Across the way, on the far right corner, was the gas station, on the far left the reservoir, and at the end of a long block ahead was the traffic light at which I would make a left onto Ford Road and then on for a few more blocks to the apartment building where my parents were living." And then came the realization: Just mental activity, just illusion - the events that were the basis for the so-very-vivid experience did not exist. There were no longer those parents, there were no longer the events of the time, there was no longer the Howard or Rita of that time. This experience was a magic show, a slight-of-hand performed by the mind. And what of the events on which that show was based. Were they ever really much different from that magic show? Ungraspable experiential phantasms, dukkha if grasped at. Peace can come only in relinquishing, in seeing reality as it is, and letting be, and letting go. Then the meditation continued, peace and ease increased, and all thought disappeared, there remaining only beautiful breath and ease, and then just ease. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) #73819 From: "Sukinder" Date: Thu Jun 28, 2007 9:22 am Subject: Re: what is sati sukinderpal Hi Robert, I'll comment on just one paragraph if you don't mind. ========================= Old Sukinder: But actually, the very idea of Satipatthana as being "the" Buddhist practice is so that we come to know this very thing isn't it? We know that the perception of persons/ beings follows from many moments of sense and mind door processes. Therefore by this time and before any intentions arise with regard to any `persons', if no sati and panna has arisen to know the moment, much akusala has already arisen and fallen away at the sense door itself, not to mention the mind door. So should we be taking the stories about our so called intentions so seriously? Robert A: Here is where we diverge. The stories of our so-called intentions can cause a lot of harm and we are wise to take them very seriously. New Sukinder: What about intentions accompanying self view, are these not harmful? And what other way is there to purify sila if not by Satipatthana? What leads to and supports satipatthana if not hearing the Dhamma (sutamaya panna), association with the wise, considering what one has heard (cintamaya panna), and straightening one's views (ditthujukamma)? As I indicated in my last post, a so called moral person of other beliefs, they too practice more or less the same way as you do. But as you will agree, theirs is not the Buddha's Path. In your opinion, do you think that what they do when developed to a certain level, the chances are increased that they will then come to appreciate the Dhamma? I don't think that you would come to this conclusion. But please consider the following: The factors for Stream Entry (and other ariyan levels btw) are, hearing the Dhamma; association with the wise; wise reflection; and practice in accordance with the dhamma, i.e. satipatthana. Now given that only this leads to the perfecting of Sila at Stream Entry, does it not occur to you that the highest form of Sila is Satipatthana / Vipassana / Lokuttara? And are these not preceded by wisdom at the level of sutamaya and cintamaya panna during which there is sila of the corresponding level? Also note that panna can't be developed without other paramis being developed alongside. And even though satipatthana is rare, don't you think that sila at the level of abstention would not be downplayed? But of course, we may not even agree on what in fact qualifies for sila…. I get the impression that, you think that in stressing the development of panna, sila and other forms of kusala will be overlooked or ignored. And I think that this is in part because you view sila and other forms of kusala as requiring being proactive about it, rather than just another conditioned reality arising beyond control. This seems to point to a lack of appreciation of the conditioned and momentary nature of dhammas. Were this appreciation there, I believe that you will not perceive any dissonance and rightly stress the greater need for the development of panna from the very beginning. For example, if you saw that while you are "involved" in the stories of your so-called intentions, other realities like seeing, hearing, unpleasant feelings etc, are arising and falling away in between. You may then come to realize that the `thoughts' too, is subject to the same laws of conditionality, impermanence and no self. At this point, already you are not acting out those thoughts. This then may give you a glimpse of what is meant by satipatthana being the higher form of sila. I think that you need to develop more trust in the Teachings on conditionality! ======================= Robert A: That is why the Buddha devoted one of the 8 divisions of the Noble Eightfold Path to Right Intention - intention based on renunciation, kindness, and compassion. New Sukinder: Samma Sankappa is not cetana but vitakka cetasika. Vitakka is often singled out as being "thinking", hence in other places, this second factor of the N8FP is labeled Right Thought. But even this is misleading, since all vitakka does is `touch', so to speak, the object. In any case, sankappa is *not* intention / cetana. But even if for the sake of argument, we considered it `intention', don't you think that the determining factor must be panna, especially since we are now so focused on `intention'? How does one determine if the moment is of renunciation, kindness, and compassion? By some story line, by accompanying feelings or by feedback? None of these don't you think? Doesn't it make sense that panna must be there at whatever level, and only at such moments can it be said that the Path is being followed / developed? I'm almost certain that you are not convinced ;-). But I can't think of putting my thoughts in any other way, so maybe we can drop this thread, perhaps other topics on another day will provide a different angle from which to pursue this..? With Metta, Sukinder #73820 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 28, 2007 10:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ancient place nilovg Dear Scott, Very beautifully expressed, emphasizing momentariness. Nina. Op 25-jun-2007, om 14:08 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: > The Path arises and falls away. That precise moment of consciousness > is also the Visitor. At the moment the Path arises, the Visitor > arrives. It would be only a brief but powerful visit, I have heard. > Taking the word 'vihaara' in one of its senses, that of 'condition of > life', then this Ancient Way can be visited at the moment of the Path. > This would be an excellent place to visit. > > What do you think of this thought I had? #73821 From: "icarofranca" Date: Thu Jun 28, 2007 11:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Energy and Impermanence icarofranca Hi Sarah!!! >------------------------------------------------------------------- > S: LOL! Lol! > > Why not join in? I'm sure your own poetry would really outshine our >simple > efforts!! > > How's your life and dhamma study these days? I am very busy nowadays! I am finally taking on the PhD Degree on UFF - Universidade Federal Fluminense, Niterói, Brasil... as an old-fashioned British O.B.E. Officer, after the resignation of my Brazillian Air Force post, I´ve decided entering the Post-Graduation on a Brazillian Federal University! It´s a matter of REAL TIME... ^_^ Not time at all, even to read a single Visuddhimagga page! ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > We have another member from Brazil called Claudia. This was her last > message. > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/72236 > > Perhaps you know each other already? >------------------------------------------------------------------- I haven´t got the pleasure, dear Sarah! So, nice to meet you, Cláudia! Metta, Ícaro #73822 From: TGrand458@... Date: Thu Jun 28, 2007 7:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Energy and Impermanence TGrand458@... In a message dated 6/28/2007 2:36:52 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, icarofranca@... writes: Ah!!! Bhikkuni´s Poetry!!! Meet Sarah Abbott - the wisest woman in all Galaxy!!!!! Meet TGrand, the more skilled , profound and sincere Neo-Positivist at West of Utopia! Metta, Ícaro .......................................... Hi Icaro Flattery will get you everywhere. Not that you'd want to get anywhere. LOL TG #73823 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 28, 2007 11:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] About Ajahn Sukin!!! nilovg Dear Ramesh, Yes, a good idea. It is good if you, Ramesh, add your personal experience to each answer. This is also what Han does when he writes something and this makes it very interesting and valuable. Nina. Op 27-jun-2007, om 12:34 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > *I had gone through the first chapter of Abhiddhama in Daily life...by > > Dear > > Nina and trying to answer the questions she had given at the end of > > chapter..As the reader try to answer these questions, he/she come to > > know..how much he/she understands..a great method * > ... > S: I know Nina will be very happy to hear this. Why not share (the > questions) and your answers here in a series? Then others can comment, > including Nina. It's helpful for us all. #73824 From: TGrand458@... Date: Thu Jun 28, 2007 7:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Energy and Impermanence TGrand458@... Hi Sarah In a message dated 6/27/2007 10:31:10 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: For TG (& All), A Masterpiece! An 'energy'-feast! yum-tious, sumptuous...yum-t But 'no controversy'B On DSG, a fantasy!!!! It seems your definition Changes its' position! Sometimes it's 'mass' And Einstein's jazz! Sometimes it's 'friction'- A vibrant predilection! Sometimes 'conditions'S More suppositions! Sometimes 'all things', With a few extra strings! Sometimes 'conditioned'S Again re-positioned! I nearly forgot 'All' - The Sabba, Sabba call! Now,'e'thing experienced'Now,'e't Sorry, just don't see the light:-( Metta, Sarah ........................................... Are you suggesting that because sometimes I may use different terms to represent the same thing that this is a "change of positions"? So in your view...phenomena, or things, or conditions, or states...these all represent different positions? Let me ask you... regarding the Four Great Elements... Traditionally termed as Fire, Water, Wind, and Earth. The Abhidhamma with a more scientific analysis (yes indeed) came up with different terms... Heat, Cohesion, Expansion, Extension. Am I to conclude then that the abhidhamma analysis is all scattered and confused because they have taken different positions on the matter than the Suttas present? From your arguments, that would seem to follow. But I don't think its a problem abhidhamma analysis has at all. Why not? Because they have attempted to remain true to the meaning of the Suttas. All abhidhamma analysis has done, in this case, is to try to look deeper as to what Fire, Water, Wind, and Earth are actually representing. This "looking deeper" always runs a risk of going astray from the intended meaning. But nevertheless, its a risk we must take unless we are able to become enlightened without doing so...and I'm not sure that's possible. Your "dhammas theory" is a case where the meaning of the original has been superceded by something that no longer represents the original IMO. Hence my objection. I have no objection into expanding analysis as long as it does not expand outside the principles presented in the Suttas. Who's to say when this has or has not happened is merely a judgement call each individual must make for themselves. Those who understood the Dhamma the best, the enlightened monks who lived with and were taught by the Buddha, didn't even feel competent to make a decision on what constitutes "lower offenses" in the Vinaya much less altering sutta terminology. Thank goodness...so at least what we received in the Sutta and Vinaya remained pretty pure. Hope your having a good trip! TG #73825 From: "Ramesh Patil" Date: Thu Jun 28, 2007 11:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] About Ajahn Sukin!!! rameshat27 Dear Nina,Sarah and all, "N:-It is good if you, Ramesh, add your personal experience to each answer. This is also what Han does when he writes something and this makes it very interesting and valuable." R:- Definitely I will do this and add answer with my personal experience. I am making answers in my understandings..within a few days..i will put it.. metta ******* ramesh ======= On 6/28/07, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Ramesh, > Yes, a good idea. > It is good if you, Ramesh, add your personal experience to each > answer. This is also what Han does when he writes something and this > makes it very interesting and valuable. > Nina. > Op 27-jun-2007, om 12:34 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > > > *I had gone through the first chapter of Abhiddhama in Daily life...by <...> #73826 From: "Ramesh Patil" Date: Thu Jun 28, 2007 11:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Death - just like now! (Alan Driver's funeral) [5] rameshat27 Dear Nina, Sarah & all, "After viewing the ashes... S: We feel that at least he understood quite a lot of dhamma and we helped him in many ways, so no bad feeling, so that makes it much easier. KS Yes,we can see it's useless to be sad. Even if one cannot help for some [time], but anyway, when right understanding arises, one should know the difference between akusala and kusala. The Buddha told us about the uselessness of having akusala. We should follow his teaching. Right understanding saves one's life..." * ********************************************************************************\ ******************** * R:Definitely,right understanding saves ones life, as through right understanding one should know the difference between akusala and kusala.From bhuddha's teaching everyone come to know how usefull are the kusala kamma and how much they benefit us. We should follow his teaching. Right understanding only saves ours life!! Really Great!! * ********************************************************************************\ ******************** * "J: (speaking to S.) Earlier Ivan made a comment that he couldn't believe it was Alan in the coffin and now that we can see the remains of his bones laid out in a small tray, about the size of a tea-tray. Ajahn was saying 'well now, what more would you say about this?', because here the body has been reduced to something about one-tenth of the size, something you can hold in the hand. "Is this Alan?" [she asked] S: It needs something like this to help us to remind us in the kusala way. KS: Because of the shortness of life. Because [if] it's only in the book that you think that life is short, but when it's not in the book it reminds better.. No worry! (laughing) S: Isn't it then out of fear because you suddenly realize life is short, so we remember kusala? KS: Because people keep thinking of kusala deeds, keep thinking, no action yet. But when life is as short as this, one should put it in action." * ********************************************************************************\ ******************** * R:- "life is as short as this, one should put it in action"whatever said is true SO we try hard to put kusala deeds into action..I think contemplation on death brings real awareness to put kusala deeds into action..If anyone read the above discussion as "*Alan in the coffin and now that we can see the remains of his bones*" definitely that person will become aware of realities and truth and sure he will come out of his own world..really a great discussion...to bring awareness of reality..and helpfull to everyone * ********************************************************************************\ ******************** * "S:.... They were saying 'what a waste'...if someone was doing good works or was young.... KS: One lives only in one's own world of seeing and hearing and thinking. One should realize this, not just thinking of 'waste' and 'wasting' and 'the loss and things' like that. It doesn't help." * ********************************************************************************\ ******************** * R:- Well said that One lives only in one's own world of seeing and hearing and thinking. One should realize this, not just thinking of 'waste' and 'wasting'Simply it doesn't help.. But it is just the wastage of our life..great..it gives me so much awareness and real touch abt my life... * ********************************************************************************\ ******************** * "S: I think people spend a lot of time speculating about other lives. KS: That's why we need more understanding of realities - the demarcation of absolute truth and the conventional truth." R:- "people spend a lot of time speculating about other lives" Yaa very true..I saw dhamma followers also get sometimes involved in this..then what abt normal person who don't know the dhamma...so that everyone need more understandings of realities- well said * ********************************************************************************\ ******************** * Conclusion:- Dear Sarah and Nina, actually i always contemplate on death in my life and bcz of that many times I am able to avoid akusala kamma and able to cultivate kusala kamma. But from this article I learn so much things..that life is so short and we must put kusala deeds into action instead of thinking them only.. Also do not waste our life only living in one's own world..right understanding saves ones life, as through right understanding one should know the difference between akusala and kusala.Also do not spend a lot of time speculating about other lives..it is of no use..So Everyone needs something like this discussion to help them to remind in the kusala way.Great and very usefull discussion.. * ********************************************************************************\ ******************** * *Metta, ****** ramesh =====* <....> #73827 From: TGrand458@... Date: Thu Jun 28, 2007 11:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Energy and Impermanence (correction) TGrand458@... Hi Sarah In previous post when I said "abhidhamma analysis" ... should have been "abhidhamma commentarial analysis." :-) TG #73828 From: "colette" Date: Thu Jun 28, 2007 3:35 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Energy and Impermanence ksheri3 Dear TG, What the heck are you doing? > > Are you suggesting that because sometimes I may use different terms to > represent the same thing that this is a "change of positions"? So in your > view...phenomena, or things, or conditions, or states...these all represent > different positions? > > Let me ask you... Just that little bit was such a downer after reading Sarah's piece of Poetic stanzas (is there a Seinfeld and a George Ka-stanza, in the house? ;)). The entire point to art is to EXERT FREEDOM, EXERT INNOVATION, EXERT EXPRESSION, ect. and there you go completely trivializing what Sarah took the time to create, manifest. Allow this to simmer a while. Think about it. Maybe review Japanes Hi-kus, my spelling sucks sometimes don't it?. Maybe check out Zen Koans? etc. here, Sarah has given us something like a lump of playdo to rekindle our youthful experimentation and experience it in the context of her poetry. Open your mind and allow it to flow. Stop trying to control your mind, your thoughts, stop trying to put the genii back in the bottle since it ain't gonna work. This one's a winner: > different terms... Heat, Cohesion, Expansion, Extension. Am I to conclude then > that the abhidhamma analysis is all scattered and confused because they have > colette: blah blah blah, and I thought that the text of the Abhidhamma was as dry as dust but what you've done here is to openly exhibit the active and dynamic reality which the abhidhamma is as you take the characterization of a sage bush in a Tumbleweeds cartoon of your local newspaper. I mean, you, your-self, have completely DRIED UP and exhibit yourself to be akin to a pile of powder, chemicals that were once a human body but are now without any moisture and so are dust in the wind. Care to pull my finger? :o ROFL. SEriously, I do not have the heart to travel down to the rest of your response to Sarah and take it apart. I want to and choose to BLOCK OUT YOUR NEGATIVE ROBOTICS OF THOUGHT so that I can revel in Sarah's prose. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@... wrote: > > > Hi Sarah > > In a message dated 6/27/2007 10:31:10 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, > sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > > For TG (& All), > > A Masterpiece! > An 'energy'-feast! > > yum-tious, sumptuous...yum-t > > But 'no controversy'B > On DSG, a fantasy!!!! <....> #73829 From: connie Date: Thu Jun 28, 2007 9:58 pm Subject: Re: flashbacks and guilt nichiconn Hi Howard, yes, S(arah) to S(cott) it was. > wander about > in peace. > > From: http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/Sutta-nipataBM6.pdf > c. > ======================== Connie, it's coincidental that I read this today. Yesterday, in the midst of my first meditation, before full absorption but "on the cusp", there was experienced a "scene" as if real and present: > connie: yes, just like now! absolutely. the runner dreams. the finish > line rises, vanishes, atlas roles over. pardon the interruption. "It was a bright, sunny day about 40 years ago, and I was driving (my wife was sensed to be a passenger) on Belmont Avenue about to cross City Line Avenue from Bala Cynwyd into Philadelphia. Across the way, on the far right corner, was the gas station, on the far left the reservoir, and at the end of a long block ahead was the traffic light at which I would make a left onto Ford Road and then on for a few more blocks to the apartment building where my parents were living." And then came the realization: Just mental activity, just illusion - the events that were the basis for the so-very-vivid experience did not exist. > connie interrupts again: yes, outside of vedana and sa~n~na, we've got > "the volitional formations" or saâ€?nkhaarakkhandha and the term of definition (sa~ncetana)">. those old > tricksters. perception and thinking. so good to point out the umbrellas! who needs more hallucinogenics? go on: There were no longer those parents, there were no longer the events of the time, there was no longer the Howard or Rita of that time. This experience was a magic show, a slight-of-hand performed by the mind. And what of the events on which that show was based. Were they ever really much different from that magic show? Ungraspable experiential phantasms, dukkha if grasped at. Peace can come only in relinquishing, in seeing reality as it is, and letting be, and letting go. Then the meditation continued, peace and ease increased, and all thought disappeared, there remaining only beautiful breath and ease, and then just ease. With metta, Howard > connie continues: the magic show, that's sleight btw of mind you say. > and it rings a bell in my dismal hell and conjures up the drills of > rupa, truly dukkha to behold; equanimity's for the bold. you were reading the same pdf? p43. The Fast Way to Freedom: < ...The great sage, Buddha, said, "be wise." Side-step the traps that trick you into believing that 'you are'. It's a delusion. Whatever deep desires you may have, practise for their extinction. Be mindful all the time...> thought i might read the www.sacred-texts.com/bud/sbe10/sbe1036.htm version alongside this one next. peace, connie #73830 From: "Robert" Date: Thu Jun 28, 2007 10:19 pm Subject: Re: what is sati avalo1968 Hello Sukinder, Thank you for again trying to help me to understand your position, but I am afraid it is all for nought. But I appreciate the effort, nonetheless. Judging by your last reply I don't think we will be agreeing with each other this lifetime: Sukinder: The factors for Stream Entry (and other ariyan levels btw) are, hearing the Dhamma; association with the wise; wise reflection; and practice in accordance with the dhamma, i.e. satipatthana. Robert A: In the first place, I don't really worry about Stream Entry or other goals of practice. I do the practice that I do simply because I think it is the right way to live my life. In the second place, you already know that I believe there is so much more to the Buddha's teachings that what you listed above. You know I believe that generousity, virtue, patience, and meditation are all part of the path and would be on my list as practices, whereas you only list satipatthana as practice according to the Dhamma. So, we disagree completely and absolutely and I don't think we are going to change each other's view. Sukinder: I get the impression that, you think that in stressing the development of panna, sila and other forms of kusala will be overlooked or ignored. And I think that this is in part because you view sila and other forms of kusala as requiring being proactive about it, rather than just another conditioned reality arising beyond control. This seems to point to a lack of appreciation of the conditioned and momentary nature of dhammas. Were this appreciation there, I believe that you will not perceive any dissonance and rightly stress the greater need for the development of panna from the very beginning. Robert A: When you are writing a post to this group, don't you sometimes stop and reword something to make it less harsh perhaps and more courteous? If I have a lack of appreciation of the conditioned and momentary nature of dhammas, perhaps you have a lack of appreciation for the meaningful things you can do here and now to change the experience of your own life and the lives of those with whom you come in contact, meaningful and proactive things. This seems so obvious to me and so obscure to you, so we just don't see things in the same light. Sukinder: For example, if you saw that while you are "involved" in the stories of your so-called intentions, other realities like seeing, hearing, unpleasant feelings etc, are arising and falling away in between. You may then come to realize that the `thoughts' too, is subject to the same laws of conditionality, impermanence and no self. At this point, already you are not acting out those thoughts. This then may give you a glimpse of what is meant by satipatthana being the higher form of sila. I think that you need to develop more trust in the Teachings on conditionality! Robert A: My so-called intentions? When I am angry, I see that I want to say something harsh, but I go ahead and do it, I do not practice restraint. There is nothing so-called about my intentions. I was angry, I wanted to cause hurt because of that anger, and I did it. It matters. Nothing that you say is going to convince me that it does not. When was the last time you did something harmful? Could you have seen that intention and chosen not to act out that intention, but you did act it out anyway? Couldn't you have practiced restraint instead? Wouldn't this be practice? Why is restraint not on your list above? What about guarding the sense doors? If you guard the sense doors, doesn't this have an effect on how you live your life? Isn't this practice? Why is guarding the sense doors not on your list above as practice? If someone harms you and you choose not to respond, isn't this the practice of patience and isn't it something that matters? Why isn't the practice of patience on your list above as practice? My friend, we will have to let this one go. You and I will never agree, as I will never agree with Sarah, Ken, and all the other devotees of Khun Sujin at DSG, but I have great respect and appreciation for the learning and dedication to that learning you all show. I can appreciate your opinions because I don't happen to believe that Buddhism has a catechism or a creed. I believe there are many useful paths to follow under the umbrella of Buddhism. In the time I have been posting here I have enjoyed it very much, but now I find myself repeating the same thing over and over again, so I think I have run out of useful things to say here. I wish you well with your practice, however you chose to define it. I know you are sincere and am sure you will progress on the path. With metta, Robert A. #73831 From: TGrand458@... Date: Thu Jun 28, 2007 7:48 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Energy and Impermanence TGrand458@... Dear Colette In a message dated 6/28/2007 10:01:25 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, ksheri3@... writes: Dear TG, What the heck are you doing? > > Are you suggesting that because sometimes I may use different terms to > represent the same thing that this is a "change of positions"? So in your > view...phenomena, or things, or conditions, or states...these all represent > different positions? > > Let me ask you... Just that little bit was such a downer after reading Sarah's piece of Poetic stanzas (is there a Seinfeld and a George Ka-stanza, in the house? ;)). The entire point to art is to EXERT FREEDOM, EXERT INNOVATION, EXERT EXPRESSION, ect. and there you go completely trivializing what Sarah took the time to create, manifest. Allow this to simmer a while. Think about it. Maybe review Japanes Hi-kus, my spelling sucks sometimes don't it?. Maybe check out Zen Koans? etc. here, Sarah has given us something like a lump of playdo to rekindle our youthful experimentation and experience it in the context of her poetry. Open your mind and allow it to flow. Stop trying to control your mind, your thoughts, stop trying to put the genii back in the bottle since it ain't gonna work. ........................................ NEW TG: If that doesn't exhibit the antithesis of the Buddha's teaching, I'll be a monkeys uncle. (Is that creative enough for you? ;-) ) ................................................ This one's a winner: > different terms... Heat, Cohesion, Expansion, Extension. Am I to conclude then > that the abhidhamma analysis is all scattered and confused because they have > colette: blah blah blah, and I thought that the text of the Abhidhamma was as dry as dust but what you've done here is to openly exhibit the active and dynamic reality which the abhidhamma is ................................... NEW TG: Being that I don't understand the rest of your paragraph I'll stop here and comment. It seems you have the expectation that I am going to be anti-abhidhamma but that you are happy I have made this aspect of the abhidhamma "come alive" for you (by mistake on my part perhaps?) If so, both presumptions would be inaccurate. The Four Great Elements, and particularly the way abhidhamma lays them out, does indeed potentially exemplify the active and dynamic nature of phenomena. Let's not remind Sarah that "dynamic" (your word) essentially means energy/energetic. ;-) ........................................... as you take the characterization of a sage bush in a Tumbleweeds cartoon of your local newspaper. I mean, you, your-self, have completely DRIED UP and exhibit yourself to be akin to a pile of powder, chemicals that were once a human body but are now without any moisture and so are dust in the wind. Care to pull my finger? :o ROFL. SEriously, I do not have the heart to travel down to the rest of your response to Sarah and take it apart. I want to and choose to BLOCK OUT YOUR NEGATIVE ROBOTICS OF THOUGHT so that I can revel in Sarah's prose. ......................................... NEW TG: Being that I started the "poetic exchange" and have continued with them for at least three posts, I feel a bit hurt (not really) that I get no credit at all from you. But on the bright side, its good to have my post critiqued and lambasted by someone who doesn't actually read it all. ;-) TG OUT ............................................ #73832 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jun 29, 2007 12:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Death - just like now! (Alan Driver's funeral) [1] sarahprocter... Hi James, --- buddhatrue wrote: > Let me ask you a question: Do you wish for others a fortunate rebirth? ... S: Definitely a fortunate (rather than an unfortunate one), given that there are no arahants around....(In addition to Connie's other quotes, see*) ... > If so, then the same reasons you wish for them a fortunate rebirth > also apply to yourself. There is nothing selfish about wishing for > yourself a fortunate rebirth just as you wish the same for others. ... S: This is the same as the 'metta to oneself' question. We can wish others good fortune, happy experiences and so on with goodwill and metta. When we wish ourselves all the goodies, it is just the usual attachment... We wish ourselves pleasant experiences all day long. This is quite different from the Buddha's descriptions of the the good results which arise from kusala. When there is metta, the sutta says we sleep well. If we try to have metta in order to sleep well, it's not the same! Of course, there can be wise reflection on the dangers of an unhappy rebirth, but that's a little different. Even so, we have to check whether the reflection is really wise, rather than with aversion or fear at such times. <...> Metta, Sarah p.s I liked the following which Nina quoted: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/73590? *In the “Kindred Sayings” (I, Sagåthå-vagga, Ch VII, Brahmin Suttas, 2, The Lay Adherents, § 2, Udaya) we are reminded of rebirth with its toils and sufferings, again and again, until arahatship has been attained. We read that the Buddha, on three consecutive days, came with his bowl to Udaya who filled it with rice. After the third time Udaya critizised the Buddha for coming again and again. The Buddha answered: Again, again is seed in furrow sown, Again, again the cloud-king sends down rain, Again, again the ploughmen plough the fields, Again, again comes corn into the realm, Again, again do beggars go their round, Again, again do generous donors give, Again, again when many gifts are given, Again, again the donors find their heaven. Again, again the dairy-folk draw milk, Again, again the calf its mother seeks, Again, again we tire and toil anew, Again, again the slow wits seek rebirth, Again, again comes birth, and dying comes, Again, again men bear us to the grave. When once the man of broad insight that Path Which brings no new becoming does attain, Then is he no more born again, again. We then read that Udaya expressed his appreciation of the Buddha’s words and took refuge in the Triple Gem. He wanted to become a layfollower of the Buddha. ***** Also this, as quoted by Connie: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/73551 *S I 132 (KS I 165) with verses attributed to Caalaa. {B.Bodhi, CDB p226: I. The Book with Verses (Saagaathaavagga) 6. Caalaa: < Date: Fri Jun 29, 2007 12:49 am Subject: was flashbacks and guilt, magic show. nilovg Dear Connie and Howard, Connie, I enjoyed so much the texts you quoted, very helpful. Connie quotes from Old Age, book 4, Sn: You dream and meet someone and when you wake they've gone. When someone you love dies it's just the same: I see you hear you call your name. You die and now there's just the name. Greedy people get stuck with sorrow, lamentation, meanness. The wise forget about owning things, wander about in peace. Let me look at the valuable discussion between you and Howard: H: -------- N: Excellent, Howard. It made me think of Kh Sujin's sayings about dreams. In our dreams we 'see' things, but when we wake up we know that it was not real seeing, but remembering events, sa~n~na's tricky work! As Connie said: Also now when we think of what we saw or heard, we are dreaming all the time. --------- H: Peace can come only in relinquishing, in seeing reality as it is, and letting be, and letting go. ------ N: Quite true. Seeing reality as it is, that is pa~n~naa, and this will lead to detachment, letting go. Connie quotes: So true. Mindfulness of nama and rupa and first distinguishing their different characteristics. A long way to go, but it has to be step by step. Nama experiences something, rupa does not experience anything. But if we do not directly understand this, it is me, me, all the time. My lobha, my dosa, my peace of mind, my beautiful breath, my ease. ---------- H: Then the meditation continued, peace and ease increased, and all thought disappeared, there remaining only beautiful breath and ease, and then just ease. --------- N: I think it is so helpful to continue here seeing also meditation as a magic show. One should not stop here, and continue to develop pa~n~naa that sees through it all, otherwise one may get stuck. Nama and rupa all along. As you, Howard expressed it so well: This is to be applied at every moment, also now. As Connie quoted: Nina. #73834 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jun 29, 2007 12:53 am Subject: Death - just like now! (Alan Driver's funeral) [6] sarahprocter... Dear Nina, Ramesh & all, [Next day on the boat, going out to sea before the scattering of the ashes and trail of petals....] .... (discussing the funeral the day before...) S: You don't think about anything when you see the bones? KS: No, bone is bone. What do you think? J: I was fascinated. I thought it was very nice the way they laid them out. KS: Maybe we've seen [them] too many times before (laugh) S: Do you ever touch the bones? KS: Yes, I pick them up sometimes. J: Someone put a coin amongst the ashes and then was trying to get it out.... S: What's the purpose of the coin? KS: I have no idea about the ritual things at all, but we can try to do anything in memory of him, like touching the bones... S: Someone said the coin is so he can be rich... KS: Where are they now, see? Only follow the tradition and then what? Just belief! S: I wanted to touch the bones, but I wasn't sure if I was allowed. KS: Why not? You can do anything you like! You can kiss, you can touch, whatever you like. When it's not wrong, just do it! Do anything you like! KS: And I appreciate all dhamma friends because we all helped do the last things for him. S: Do you think it makes any difference to him? KS: We have done the best according to friendship, friendliness. S: But can it make any difference? KS: Not to him, because he is like us, if he has eyes he can see, if he has ears he can hear. But for our relationship as one of his friends. S: Is it possible to extend the merit to him? KS: If he can appreciate it. If he can see, if he can hear, if he can understand... If he couldn't rejoice, he couldn't. It's like when Nina would know what we have done for him, she would rejoice! In the same way, exactly. J: Why does it need our intention to extend merit? Why can't they see anyway? KS: If you don't have intention, if you don't think of it, could he rejoice? If you just sit, look around.... J: You mean, we have to tell Nina so she can receive the news. Otherwise they won't know. KS: Right. I don't mind much about people in other planes because it's just thinking, just speculating. Just do what we should. That's all! ***** Metta, Sarah ======== #73835 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jun 29, 2007 1:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What is the wrong view? (References from the MN anthology) sarahprocter... Hi Howard, Larry & Phil, Just as a reminder, we also read that all speculative/wrong views (as given in detail in the Brahmajala Sutta) only arise when there is sakkaya-ditthi: SN 41:3 (Isisdatta, Bodhi transl): “Now, householder, are you asking thus: ‘Venerable elder, there are various views that arise in the world: “The world is eternal”….- these as well as the sixty-two speculative views mentioned in the Brahmajaala. Now when what exists do these views come to be? When what is nonexistent do these views not come to be?’ “ “Yes, venerable sir.” “As to the various views that arise in the world, householder, ‘the world is eternal’….-These as well as the sixty two speculative views mentioned in the Brahmajaala: when there is identity view, these views come to be; when there is no identity view, these views do not come to be.” "But, venerable sir, how does identity view come to be?" "Here, householder, the uninstructed worldling, who has no regard for the noble ones and is unskilled and undisciplined in their Dhamma, who has no regard for the good persons and is unskilled and undisciplined in their Dhamma, regards form as self, or self as possessing form, or form as in self, or self as in form. He regards feeling as self....perception..volitional formations....consciousness as self......It is in such a way that identity view comes to be." ***** S: So, even though there may be no mention in other suttas of 'mothers, fathers, worlds, beings, and conglomerates in general, not existing', we have to keep the clear teaching on anatta in mind, no matter what we read!! Metta, Sarah --- upasaka@... wrote: > >L: I don't want to type out it all out, but I just looked at every index > > reference to wrong view in MN. This index heading under "views, wrong" > > deals with wrong view as part of the wrong eightfold path. All the > > references say pretty much the same thing: > > > > "And what, bhikkhus, is wrong view? 'There is nothing given, nothing > > offered, nothing sacrificed; no fruit or result of good or bad > actions; > > no this world, no other world; no mother, no father; no beings who are > > reborn spontaneously; no good and virtuous recluses and brahmins in > the > > world who have realised for themselves by direct knowledge and declare > > this world and the other world.' This is wrong view." > > > > > ======================== >H: I point out for consideration that this includes nothing along > the > lines of mothers, fathers, worlds, beings, and conglomerates in general, > not > existing. <...> #73836 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jun 29, 2007 1:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: what is sati nilovg Dear Robert A, I hope you will not run away. It does not matter if you repeat things. Patience, yes, very important. It is the highest ascetism, as we read in the Ovada Patimokkha. It is good if you give us examples from your daily life about restraint and patience, we can learn from you. When someone hurts us by his post and we do not respond, this is not necessarily patience. We may keep quiet with aversion and hurt feelings. We have to scrutinize our cittas: is there dosa, aversion, with the citta, or perhaps metta and compassion? I have seen from your posts that these last two are high on your list and I appreciate this. What helps me very much in my life is learning that in truth not the other person or a situation is causing aversion but that my accumulated unwolesome inclinations are the real cause of suffering and unhappy feeling. The Abhidhamma helps me to understand this more and more and to apply it. Nina. Op 29-jun-2007, om 7:19 heeft Robert het volgende geschreven: > If someone harms you and you choose not to > respond, isn't this the practice of patience and isn't it something > that matters? Why isn't the practice of patience on your list above > as practice? #73837 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jun 29, 2007 2:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) sarahprocter... Hi TG, --- TGrand458@... wrote: ---- ---- -- > S: Does this help? > > SN 35:27 'Full Understanding' (Bodhi transl): > > " 'Bhikkhus, without directly knowing and fully understanding the all, > without developing dispassion towards it and abandoning it, one is > incapable of destroying suffering. > > "And what, bhikkhus, is the all....? > > "The eye and forms and eye-consciousness [Cakkhu-vi~n~"The eye and > citta]and things to be cognized by eye-consciousness.citta]and c <..> > TG: Samyutta Nikaya / Connected Discourse Pg 1141. > > "Bhikkhus, I will teach you the Dhamma for abandoning all through direct > > knowledge and full understanding. Listen to that... > > And what, Bhikkhus, is the Dhamma for abandoning all through direct > knowledge and full understanding? The eye is to be abandoned through > direct > knowledge and full understanding, forms are to be so abandoned, eye > consciousness is > to be so abandoned, eye-contact is to be so abandoned, and whatever > feeling > arises with eye-contact as condition --- whether pleasant or painful or > > neither-painful-nor-pleasant --- that too is to be abandoned through > direct > knowledge and full understanding." <...> > BTW Sarah, are "the eye," "the ear," etc. ultimate realities from your > point > of view or conceptual constructions? ... S: Ultimate realities. They refer to rupas, cakku pasada rupa (eye-sense) etc. ... >If its the latter, then I hardly > think > such a Sutta as you posted supports your position...in fact, it would > undermine it. > > But then again, if you do think the "eye," "ear," etc. are ultimate > realities, we have other things to talk about. ;-) .... S: What's new? ;-) "sabba.m abhi~n~naa pahri~n~naa pahaanaaya" ('for abandoning all through direct knowledge and full understanding') See BB's notes: a) Vol 1, note 36 on p.354 on the 3 kinds of pari~n~naa (full understanding) b)Vol 1, note 42 on p.1052 on the pari~n~naa and abhi~n~naa No abandoning without the clear understanding of the characteristics of namas and rupas! Metta, Sarah ======= #73838 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Jun 29, 2007 4:13 am Subject: Re: Sammaadi.t.thi study corner scottduncan2 Dear All, 36. "Saying, 'Good friend,' the bhikkhus delighted and rejoiced in the venerable Saariputta's words. Then they asked him a further question: 'But, friend, might there be another way in which a noble disciple is one of right view...and has arrived a this true Dhamma?' - 'There might be, friends.' Saadhaavusoti kho te bhikkhuu aayasmato saariputtassa bhaasita.m abhinanditvaa anumoditvaa aayasmanta.m saariputta.m uttari.m pa~nha.m aapucchu.m: " siyaa panaavuso a~n~nopiopi pariyaayo yathaa ariyasaavako sammaadi.t.thi hoti ujugataassa di.t.thi, dhamme aveccappasaadena samannaagato' aagato ima.m saddhammanti?" 37. "When, friends, a noble disciple understands craving, the origins of craving, the cessation of craving, and the way leading to the cessation of craving, in that way he is one of right view...and has arrived at this true Dhamma. Siyaa aavuso. Yato kho aavuso ariyasaavako ta.nha~nca pajaanaati, ta.nhaasamudaya~nca pajaanaati, ta.nhaanirodha~nca pajaanaati, ta.nhaanirodhagaamini.m pa.tipada~nca pajaanaati, ettaavataapi kho aavuso ariyasaavako sammaadi.t.thi hoti. Ujugataassa di.t.thi. Dhamme aveccappasaadena samannaagato aagato ima.m saddhammanti. 38. "And what is craving, what is the origin of craving, what is the cessation of craving, what is the way leading to the cessation of craving? There are six classes of craving: craving for forms, craving for sounds, craving for odours, craving for flavours, craving for tangibles, craving for mind-objects. With the arising of feeling there is the arising of craving. With the cessation of feeling there is the cessation of craving. The way leading to the cessation of craving is just this Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view...right concentration. Katamaa panaavuso ta.nhaa? Katamo ta.nhaasamudayo? Katamo ta.nhaanirodho? Katamaa ta.nhaanirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa? Chayime aavuso ta.nhaakaayaa: ruupata.nhaa saddata.nhaa gandhata.nhaa rasata.nhaa po.t.thabbata.nhaa dhammata.nhaa. Vedanaasamudayaa ta.nhaasamudayo. Vedanaanirodhaa ta.nhaanirodho. Ayameva ariyo a.t.tha"ngiko maggo ta.nhaarodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa seyyathiida.m: sammaadi.t.thi sammaasa"nkappo, sammaavaacaa, sammaakammanto, sammaaaajiivo sammaavaayaamo sammaasati, sammaasamaadhi. 39. "When a noble disciple has thus understood craving, the origin of craving, the cessation of craving, and the way leading to the cessation of craving...he here and now makes an end of suffering. In that way too a noble disciple is one of right view...and has arrived at this true Dhamma." Yato kho aavuso ariyasaavako eva.m ta.nha.m pajaanaati, eva.m ta.nhaasamudaya.m pajaanaati, eva.m ta.nhaanirodha.m pajaanaati, eva.m ta.nhaanirodhagaamini.m pa.tipada.m pajaanaati, so sabbaso raagaanusaya.m pahaaya pa.tighaanusaya.m pa.tivinodetvaa asmiiti di.t.thimaanaanusaya.m samuuhanitvaa avijja.m pahaaya vijja.m uppaadetvaa di.t.theva dhamme dukkhassanta"nkaro hoti. Ettaavataapi kho aavuso ariyasaavako sammaadi.t.thi hoti. Ujugataassa di.t.thi. Dhamme aveccappasaadena samannaagato aagato ima.m saddhammanti. Sincerely, Scott. #73839 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Jun 29, 2007 4:32 am Subject: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) scottduncan2 Dear Jon, Thanks for your reply: "adhi.t.thaanaabhinivesaanusayaa" (adhi.t.thaana + abhinivesa + anusayaa). J: "My (uninformed) guess, going on the PED entry and the general context in the sutta, would be that it refers to wrong view." Scott: That would seem to be the case. J: "Any thoughts yourself?" Scott: No, just a question as to the implication of the use of the specific compound 'adhi.t.haanaabhinivesaanusayaa' rather than the general term 'michaa di.t.thi'. My guess would be that here, since the six internal and external bases are being discussed, and since 'things cognizable [by the mind]' due to these bases are mentioned, then the specific modes of clinging through thinking are noted. J: "We could always ask a Pali expert like Ven Dhammananda." Scott: If he had time to respond that would be great. Sincerely, Scott. #73840 From: "Robert" Date: Fri Jun 29, 2007 5:46 am Subject: [dsg] Re: what is sati avalo1968 Hello Nina, If you practice restraint and do not respond to harm, this is patience, regardless of what other hurt feelings you are experiencing. When someone is in the habit of striking out, but he hears the teaching and sees that it is possible to restrain one's impulses to strike out, and also sees that with that restaint he can find a little peace and harmlessness, that person is learning to practice patience. Someone may have the habit of chasing after every woman he finds attractive, but he hears the teachings and he recognizes that this grasping is bondage and harmful to himself and others, so he loosens his grip. However imperfectly, he is learning to practice virtue in the form of the third precept. It all seems so simple to me. He is aware of many feelings and emotions arising in the moment, and it is good when he can recognize kusula and akusala, but it is also good if he controls his impulse to act in a harmful way and tries to act in a way that is helpful. It does matter. This is practice. My thanks to you Nina for your excellent writings that I can always turn to if in the future I want to again try to understand the teachings of Khun Sujin. It may seem like I have understood nothing during my time here, but I am sure that the efforts of you and the others to teach me have not been totally wasted. Maybe someday it will all gel in my head. With metta, Robert A. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Robert A, > I hope you will not run away. It does not matter if you repeat things. > Patience, yes, very important. It is the highest ascetism, as we read > in the Ovada Patimokkha. > It is good if you give us examples from your daily life about > restraint and patience, we can learn from you. > When someone hurts us by his post and we do not respond, this is not > necessarily patience. We may keep quiet with aversion and hurt > feelings. We have to scrutinize our cittas: is there dosa, aversion, > with the citta, or perhaps metta and compassion? I have seen from > your posts that these last two are high on your list and I appreciate > this. > What helps me very much in my life is learning that in truth not the > other person or a situation is causing aversion but that my > accumulated unwolesome inclinations are the real cause of suffering > and unhappy feeling. The Abhidhamma helps me to understand this more > and more and to apply it. > Nina. > Op 29-jun-2007, om 7:19 heeft Robert het volgende geschreven: > > > If someone harms you and you choose not to > > respond, isn't this the practice of patience and isn't it something > > that matters? Why isn't the practice of patience on your list above > > as practice? > > > > > #73841 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jun 29, 2007 5:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) sarahprocter... Dear Scott (& Jon), --- Scott Duncan wrote: > "adhi.t.thaanaabhinivesaanusayaa" (adhi.t.thaana + abhinivesa + > anusayaa). > > J: "My (uninformed) guess, going on the PED entry and the general > context in the sutta, would be that it refers to wrong view." > > Scott: That would seem to be the case. > > J: "Any thoughts yourself?" > > Scott: No, just a question as to the implication of the use of the > specific compound 'adhi.t.haanaabhinivesaanusayaa' <....> .... Sarah: Does the following help? SN12:15 Kaccaanagotta Sutta (Bodhi transl): "This world, Kaccaana, is for the most part shackled by engagement, clinging, and adherence. But this one [with right view (i.e 'this noble disciple')] does not become engaged and cling through that engagement and clinging, mental standpoint, adherence, underlying tendency ('adhi.t.haanaabhinivesaanusayaa'); he does not take a stand about 'my self.'" Note 32, BB:"....Spk says that craving and views are also called "mental standpoints" (adhi.t.thaana) because they are the foundation for the (unwholesome) mind, and "adherences and underlying tendencies" (abhinivesaanusaya) because they adhere to the mind and lie latent within it. Spk connects the verb adhi.t.thaati to the following "attaa me," and I conform to this interpretation in the translation." Metta, Sarah ====== #73842 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jun 29, 2007 6:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: what is sati nilovg Dear Robert A, you are very kind, thanks for your post. That is right, It is so easy to retort unpleasant speech likewise, is it not? If one does not, one conquers what is hard to conquer. What is your experience in life? How were the situations you were in? One tries to act in a helpful way, and I think, this means that one realizes what kusala citta is, different from akusala. One realizes that metta is different from dosa, and that metta is valuable. Nina. Op 29-jun-2007, om 14:46 heeft Robert het volgende geschreven: > He is aware of many feelings and > emotions arising in the moment, and it is good when he can recognize > kusula and akusala, but it is also good if he controls his impulse > to act in a harmful way and tries to act in a way that is helpful. > It does matter. This is practice. #73843 From: connie Date: Fri Jun 29, 2007 6:54 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (61) nichiconn Dear friends, RD: http://digital.library.upenn.edu/women/davids/psalms/psalms.html Pruitt: PTS 1999 - The Commentary on the Verses of the Theriis txt: vri 8. A.t.thakanipaato VIII. The Section of the Group of Eight [Verses] 1. Siisuupacaalaatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa 1. The commentary on the verses of Therii Siisuupacaalaa part 1 of 7 A.t.thakanipaate bhikkhunii siilasampannaati-aadikaa siisuupacaalaaya theriyaa gaathaa. Imissaapi vatthu caalaaya theriyaa vatthumhi vuttanayameva. Ayampi hi aayasmato dhammasenaapatissa pabbajitabhaava.m sutvaa sayampi ussaahajaataa pabbajitvaa katapubbakiccaa vipassana.m pa.t.thapetvaa, gha.tentii vaayamantii nacirasseva arahatta.m paapu.ni. Arahatta.m patvaa phalasamaapattisukhena viharantii ekadivasa.m attano pa.tipatti.m paccavekkhitvaa katakiccaati somanassajaataa udaanavasena- 196. "Bhikkhunii siilasampannaa, indriyesu susa.mvutaa; adhigacche pada.m santa.m, asecanakamojavan"ti.- Gaathamaaha. In the section of eight [verses], the verses beginning A bhikkhunii, possessed of virtue are Therii Siisuupacaalaa's. Her story is described as the same as the story for Therii Caalaa. When she heard of the going forth of the venerable General of the Doctrine, she became full of energy herself and went forth. She did the preliminary duties and established insight. Then striving and making effort, in a very short time, she attained Arahatship. One day, looking over her attainment, she thought, "I have done my duty." And she spoke this verse as a solemn utterance: 196. A bhikkhunii, possessed of virtuous conduct, well controlled in her faculties, should obtain the peaceful state, never causing surfeit, of sweet flavour. RD: HER story has been told in that of Caalaa her sister - how she followed in her great brother's steps, entered the Order, and became an Arahant. Dwelling in the bliss of fruition, she reflected one day on her attainment, and having done all that was to be done, exulted in her happiness thus: Lo! here a Sister, in the Precepts sure, Well-guarded in the sixfold way of sense, *299 Who hath attaine'd to that Holy Path, That ever-welling elixir of life. *300 (196) *299 Here indriya, as something to be restrained, not trained - i.e., developed - refers to the senses of external perception (plus sense-memory). See Ps. lix., 182 n. {Caalaa} *300 Cf. Ps. xxxiv. 55. {"But the wise drink it [the teaching]..." Sukkaa}. txt: Tattha siilasampannaati parisuddhena bhikkhunisiilena samannaagataa paripu.n.naa. Indriyesu susa.mvutaati manaccha.t.thesu indriyesu su.t.thu sa.mvutaa, ruupaadi-aaramma.ne i.t.the raaga.m, ani.t.the dosa.m, asamapekkhane moha~nca pahaaya su.t.thu pihitindriyaa. Asecanakamojavanti kenaci anaasittaka.m ojavanta.m sabhaavamadhura.m sabbassaapi kilesarogassa vuupasamanosadhabhuuta.m ariyamagga.m, nibbaanameva vaa. Ariyamaggampi hi nibbaanatthikehi pa.tipajjitabbato kilesapari.laahaabhaavato ca pada.m santanti vattu.m va.t.tati. Pruitt: 196. There, possessed of virtuous conduct (siila-sampannaa) means: possessed of (samannaagataa), filled with, the pure virtuous conduct of a bhikkhunii (bhikkhunii-siilena). Well controlled (susa.mvutaa) in her faculties (indriyesu) means: well controlled (su.t.thu sa.mvutaa) in her faculties, which have mind as the sixth [sense], with her faculties well closed (su.t.thu pihit'-indriyaa), having abandoned passion with regard to desire, hatred with regard to what is not desired, and delusion with regard to a lack of impartial observation. Never causing surfeit, of sweet flavour (ojava.m) means: it needs nothing added to it by anyone, of sweet flavour (ojavanta.m), sweet by nature, of the nature of a medicine for allaying the disease of the defilements, the noble path, or alternatively, quenching.* And it is appropriate to call the noble path the peaceful state because it is to be followed by anyone desirous of the quenching of the burning fever of the defilements. *For "never causing surfeit, of sweet flavour," cf. the commentay above on v. 55 (p.82). {Sisters 34, Sukkaa} ===tbc, connie #73844 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:29 am Subject: Conditions Ch 5, Conascence-condition. no 3. nilovg Dear friends, Citta and cetasikas can be of four “jåtis” (classes), they can be kusala, akusala, vipåka or kiriya. Some cetasikas can accompany cittas of the four jåtis, but in each case they are completely different since they are conditioned by the citta and the other cetasikas they accompany. Manasikåra, attention, for example, is a cetasika which arises with each citta, but it is quite different when it accompanies lobha-múla-citta which clings to the object which is experienced, or when it accompanies kusala citta which is intent on generosity or on the observance of síla. Viriya, energy or effort, can be energy exerted in an unwholesome way, such as effort to steal, or it can be energy for what is wholesome. Thus, there is a great variety of citta and cetasikas which mutually support one another. When we come to understand more the different conditions for the realities which arise it will help us to see that there is no self who experiences objects, likes or dislikes them, or develops right understanding. As to the second class of phenomena to which conascence-condition pertains, we read in the “Patthåna” (Analytical Exposition, 6): The four great primaries (Great Elements, mahå-bhúta rúpas) are mutually related to one another by conascence-condition. The Elements of Earth (solidity), Water (cohesion), Fire (temperature) and Wind (motion) always arise together and condition another. Rúpas of the body and rúpas of materiality outside arise and fall away in groups or units, and in each group there have to be the four Great Elements. Solidity is the foundation of the other three elements, temperature maintains the other three elements, cohesion holds them together and the element of motion [1] acts as their distension (Visuddhimagga XI, 109). The “Patthåna” (Faultless Triplet, Investigation Chapter, § 419, VII, c ) states as to the way the four great Elements condition each other that one “great primary” conditions the other three, three condition one, and two condition two. There is such a great variety of sense objects we experience every day, but they are only different compositions of rúpa elements. When we touch a table or a piece of cloth there is only tangible object, appearing as hardness or softness, which is composed of different rúpa elements. Hardness, softness, heat, cold, motion or pressure can be experienced by touch [2]. We think that tangible object can last, but it is only rúpa which arises and falls away all the time. ------------ 1. Motion is not movement in conventional sense; this rúpa has the characteristic of motion or pressure. It is sometimes translated as oscillation or vibration. It causes distension, and this can be noticed, for example, when there is pressure of air in the stomach or abdomen. 2. The element of cohesion cannot be experienced by touch. ******** Nina. #73845 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:38 am Subject: Listening to the Dhamma, Ch 4, no 2. The Stages of Insight. nilovg Dear friends, It is difficult to know the difference between nåma and rúpa. Knowing this in theory is not enough. Visible object which is rúpa appears through the eyes. Seeing does not appear through the eyes. Sound which is rúpa appears through the ears. Hearing does not appear through the ears. Nåma appears only through the mind-door, but we are ignorant of the mind-door. At the first stage of insight paññå realizes the difference between the characteristics of nåma and rúpa through the mind-door and then there is no doubt about what the mind- door is. When that stage has not yet been reached there are moments of doubt about realities, but in spite of this, the development of understanding can continue little by little. When sati can be aware of rúpa but not of nåma, we should not worry about this. Later on there can be conditions for awareness of more kinds of objects, also of nåma. We should not expect clear understanding in the beginning. The first stage of insight is nåma-rúpa-pariccheda-ñåna, “defining” of nåma and rúpa. It is the direct realization of the different characteristics of nåma and rúpa through the mind-door. The objects which usually appear as the world, appear as devoid of self, as anattå. The insight knowledge, vipassanå ñåna, arising at that moment is not taken for self either. In this way the wrong view of self can eventually be eradicated. When someone believes that he knows the difference between nåma and rúpa he may know this with an idea of self who understands and that means that he has not attained any stage of insight. Or someone may believe that when the first stage of insight arises, the difference between seeing and visible object, hearing and sound should be known. However, there cannot be any selection of objects of sati, it entirely depends on the sati of which object there is awareness and understanding. The objects may be hardness and feeling for example, but there is no rule. There is no rule that realities must be known in pairs, such as seeing and visible object, hearing and sound. Vipassanå ñåna distinguishes the characteristics of the different objects from each other and it realizes one object at a time as devoid of self. The moments of vipassanå ñåna occur in mind-door processes of cittas, and when they have fallen away the world appears as it used to appear, as a whole, as different persons and things. Paññå has to continue developing understanding of all realities which appear so that there can be conditions for the following stage of insight, the second stage. ******* Nina. #73846 From: TGrand458@... Date: Fri Jun 29, 2007 5:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) TGrand458@... In a message dated 6/29/2007 3:06:14 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: No abandoning without the clear understanding of the characteristics of namas and rupas! Metta, Sarah .................................................. Hi Sarah Agreed!!!! And those Characteristcs are clearly spelled out in the Suttas as -- Impermanent, Suffering, and No-self. No ultimate realities of "Dhammas" is found in the Suttas. The view of "ultimate realities" is a parasitic viewpoint artificially overlaid onto the Suttas so that those craving a more substantive reference-point to attach to have some "red meat" to adhere to. Ouch. LOL TG #73847 From: TGrand458@... Date: Fri Jun 29, 2007 6:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) TGrand458@... In a message dated 6/26/2007 10:35:27 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: TG: >No essence lies, In anything, No state exists, As its own thing. .... S: Such lofty heights, You have your rights- In Mahayana, Even Pranayama! ....................................... Hi Sarah (Does this sound like Mahayana or Pranayama to you?) "Suppose, bhikkhus, that a magician or a magicians apprentice would display a magical illusion at a crossroads. A man with good sight would inspect it, ponder it, and carefully investigate it, and it would appear to him to be void, hollow, insubstantial. For what substance could there be in a magical illusion? So too, bhikkhus, whatever kind of consciousness there is, whether past, fututre, or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near: a bhikkhu inspects it, ponders it, and carefully investigates it, and it would appear to him to be void, hollow, insubstantial. For what substance could there be in consciousness? (The Buddha, Samyutta Nikaya, Connected Discourses of the Buddha, page 952.) TG #73848 From: "colette" Date: Fri Jun 29, 2007 9:05 am Subject: Garson, a drink for my Discordian friend! ksheri3 Good Morning TG, Splendid! I love coming to MY WORK which is the discovery of THE MYSTERIES, and finding such jovial laughter. Nobody can bring me down from the high I'm experiencing at this moment since I've almost completed a total, complete, cleaning operation of my basement room and am ready to begin the finishing touches on filing EVERYTHING I'VE BEEN ACCUMULATING during my course of study from 2004 onward. Now for your tastey morsel. > > NEW TG: If that doesn't exhibit the antithesis of the Buddha's teaching, > I'll be a monkeys uncle. (Is that creative enough for you? ;- ) ) > > ................................................ colette: creativity is a gift that we, as ignorant as we seem to be, humans are the blessed beneficiaries of while you take creativity to be something that is to RED LINED into it's own neighborhood; for instance we can look at the movie PLAYING GOD staring David Decouveney, sorry about the mispelling, where the Black Marketeer that wishes to be his friend, takes him home one evening after a Lakers game saying, a statement discribing the home he lives in and the neighborhood the home is in: "How Bohemian". Well, in NYC they, the Real Estate addicts, may've bought SoHo and The Village for the hallucination they can give to a yuppie, but that doesn't change the fact that this hallucination came from somewhere, began in the begining of creation for SoHo and The Village. That, my friend, can never be changed. How is my statement an "anti-thesis" of the words that people have chosen to place in the mouth of the Buddha? Please be specific. ---------------------- > It seems you have the expectation that I am going to be anti- abhidhamma colette: In No Way Possible! I thought that you had a very good grasp of the Abhidhamma and therefor were applying your grasp of this text to what Sarah had written. Expectations, are you one of those PRE- DETERMINATIONISTS? You, those creationists that run around saying that everything is this supposed "god's" will and plan? oopps, only 30 seconds. Later in 60 minutes. toodles, colette but > that you are happy I have made this aspect of the abhidhamma "come alive" for > you (by mistake on my part perhaps?) <.....> #73849 From: "colette" Date: Fri Jun 29, 2007 10:42 am Subject: Garson, this calls for champagne or a martini if no celebration ksheri3 "At this point in the text a quotation is provided from Karma Chagmey, by the Fourth Trungpa Rinpoche, Kunga Namgyal. The instructions given in this quotation are particularly beneficial. He says, ' that when you are meditating by looking at the nuture of the mind, whether you are doing so through primarily the application of conscious effeort in tension or through a conscious effort in relaxation, what you need to do is engage in direct observation.' Direct observation means you are not using faculty of reasoning. here your using your faculty of observation. So one thing that will happen when you are meditating, at some point your mind will come to rest. When your mind is still, when your mind is at rest, then you look at that state of stillness.... "Now when your in the midst of this observation at some point a thought is going to suddenly appear.... "Now thoughts do arise, we do experience thoughts.... Hi TG, And finally, this was tremendous! > ......................................... > > NEW TG: Being that I started the "poetic exchange" and have continued with > them for at least three posts, colette: are you saying that you've left bread crumbs on the ground so that you can find your way out of this madness we call Life/Death, existance? So, we have concluded here, that you are aware of at least three posts. Are the three posts a single post or are they seperate? I can go on and on with that line but naw, I don't have the time. You are also aware that you have a presence. Hmmmmm, one stops and ponders, "Garbage in - Garbage out" and "No Deposit - No Return", et al. That suddenly appeared in my mind, I wonder why. Your presence has existed for at least three posts. Well, the existance of some microscopic worms is general no more than 20 minutes so I guess we can be amazed that you've actually stuck with me here. However we'll observe the "clinging" nature another time. --------------------------- Hmmmmm, I was just prostrated on the ground, rolling in the mud, where's my wet t-shirt?, in the filth, and heared the ground say something to me. I think the ground is about to move. That's a shamanistic view, terminology, maybe we can say earthquake coming, no? --------------------------- I feel a bit hurt (not really) that I get no > credit at all from you. > colette: Now I see, jeeze, ya go through that entire schtick to get to the bottom line where here we find that you expect a return. Oh, why didn't you tell me that you were practicing Western Theological traditions and only using Buddhism as you control group? So, what level of study are you in at the University of Chicago? You are speaking of plastic money aren't you, see "credit"? Credit, plastic money, clearly places you into the Reagan-Bush psychology of Golden Showers, aka Trickle Down Effect, which was manifested by Uncle Milty himself while in drag with J.Edgar himself, Uncle Milty Friedman, econ prof at the U. of C. representing the Chicago School of Economics. We won't get into the characterizations of a uterus, yani, et al, that's for desert, no? You want something for nothing, no? But since I don't exist what could I possibly give to you in the form of credit which you will grace us with your determinization through determinism? I have certainly been following this charade very coherently but you seem to think that your thoughts which create a Scatter Plot and not a linear rationale, need to have RE-Cognition for an action of Discordianism. Please sir, this is a buddhist sight, Discordianism can be best discussed in a Thelemic sight, Bill Heidrick would love ya, but as I told Sam Webster many a year ago, "How do you put up with these children and their insanity" ----------------------------- > But on the bright side, its good to have my post critiqued and lambasted by > someone who doesn't actually read it all. ;-) colette: boy, I thought we were gonna have to listen to Bruce Springstein's Tunnel of Love for a long time, over and over and over and ... At least we can say that in the Bardo experience there is a direct relationship to the Near-Death Experiences that people have since they do, as tape recorders have been proven to do, repeat the same experience where there is a light down a tunnel. Ah, but can I go off on that statement but that's for another time since I will be getting into exterior-interior (inside-outside) and Svabhava. At least when you say that you are "TG Out" I can automatically go with the realization that you are IN the group that I considered you to be in. Why, since all I know is that you are "Out" well, then, can't I place you "in" any group I choose? toodles, colette #73850 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Jun 29, 2007 5:23 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What is the wrong view? (References from the MN anthology) lbidd2 Hi Sarah, I'm not sure, but I think Phil's question was something like, "are all wrong views included in the wrong view of the eightfold path, or just the ones listed in MN 117, for example,?" In other words, can one practice the eightfold path with self view? I am inclined to say no, one cannot practice the eightfold path with self view. It seems to me that, generally speaking, mundane right view is basically confidence or faith (saddhaa) in the Buddha, dhamma and sangha. According to abhidhamma this only arises as kusala cetasika. Therefore, no self view. One might say that the eightfold path is exclusively kusala citta. So no self view. However, that is not to say that self view must be eradicated in order to follow it. So there is some back and forth between kusala and akusala, being on the right path and being on the wrong path. Larry #73851 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Jun 29, 2007 5:35 pm Subject: Vism.XVII,167 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga), Ch. XVII 167. And with a stream of continuity there is neither identity nor otherness. For if there were absolute identity in a stream of continuity, there would be no forming of curd from milk. And yet if there were absolute otherness, the curd would not be derived from the milk. And so too with all causally arisen things. And if that were so there would be an end to all worldly usage, which is hardly desirable. So neither absolute identity nor absolute otherness should be assumed here. ************************* 167. ettha ca santaanabandhato natthi ekataa naapi naanataa. yadi hi santaanabandhe sati ekantamekataa bhaveyya, na khiirato dadhi sambhuuta.m siyaa. athaapi ekantanaanataa bhaveyya, na khiirassaadhiino dadhi siyaa. esa nayo sabbahetuhetusamuppannesu. eva~nca sati sabbalokavohaaralopo siyaa, so ca ani.t.tho. tasmaa ettha na ekantamekataa vaa naanataa vaa upagantabbaati. #73852 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Jun 29, 2007 6:38 pm Subject: Re: what is sati kenhowardau Hi Robert A and Nina, ------------- RA: > If you practice restraint and do not respond to harm, this is patience, regardless of what other hurt feelings you are experiencing. When someone is in the habit of striking out, but he hears the teaching and sees that it is possible to restrain one's impulses to strike out, and also sees that with that restaint he can find a little peace and harmlessness, that person is learning to practice patience. Someone may have the habit of chasing after every woman he finds attractive, but he hears the teachings and he recognizes that this grasping is bondage and harmful to himself and others, so he loosens his grip. However imperfectly, he is learning to practice virtue in the form of the third precept. --------------- Yesterday, I was showing some guests the little red beetles that have suddenly appeared in my garden. I said, "Don't hurt them," and the female guest said, "I trod on the other ones you showed us." I said, "But I told you they were harmless," and she laughed, "Yeah, but I squashed 'em anyway." She thought she was being cute. I told her, "All right, but you'll have to come back as a bug." That's about the right level of Dhamma talk for some occasions, isn't it? I wouldn't attempt to drop 'namas and rupas' into that type of conversation. ------------------------- RA: > It all seems so simple to me. He is aware of many feelings and emotions arising in the moment, and it is good when he can recognize kusula and akusala, but it is also good if he controls his impulse to act in a harmful way and tries to act in a way that is helpful. It does matter. This is practice. ---------------------------- Take this extract from the "Just like now" thread: > S: Isn't it then out of fear because you suddenly realize life is short, so we remember kusala? KS: Because people keep thinking of kusala deeds, keep thinking, no action yet. But when life is as short as this, one should put it in action. > The realisation "Life is short!" might make us think (for example) "When I visit my parents next week I will be respectful and helpful." Then we might realise, " But hang on: life is shorter than that; I should look for someone to be kind to now - in the next few seconds." Then we inevitably remember that life is even shorter than that. And so we might stop what we are doing and try to practice kusala "here and now." For example we might try to radiate metta or experience anatta etc. That is the way of conventional meditation, but it is doomed to failure. The present opportunity is already gone well before that practice can take advantage of it. There needs to be a lateral shift in our thinking. --------------------- RA: > My thanks to you Nina for your excellent writings that I can always turn to if in the future I want to again try to understand the teachings of Khun Sujin. It may seem like I have understood nothing during my time here, but I am sure that the efforts of you and the others to teach me have not been totally wasted. Maybe someday it will all gel in my head. ---------------------- I hope you will continue reading DSG, Robert. Don't feel obliged to contribute, but whenever the mood takes you we will always be glad to hear what you have to say. Ken H > KS: That's why we need more understanding of realities - the demarcation of absolute truth and the conventional truth. > #73853 From: connie Date: Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:22 pm Subject: Re: Paramattha and conventional nichiconn dear Andrew, this has been working like a charm for me, thank you! delighted, connie I hereby announce that all my future DSG posts will be written in Old Icelandic. None of you understand Old Icelandic. Nevertheless, my posts are to be understood. Period. #73854 From: connie Date: Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:33 pm Subject: Vism.XVII,167 nichiconn Path of Purity, p.665 As regards - "Because the series is continuous, There's no identity nor otherness" - should there really be identity (or oneness) in the continuity of the series, there would be no formation of curds from milk. And should there really be otherness there would be no curds which are due to milk. It is the same with all causes and effects. Else there would be an end to all worldly usage, and that would not be desirable. Therefore here the view of neither oneness nor otherness should be upheld. #73855 From: "Antony Woods" Date: Fri Jun 29, 2007 8:06 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: What is the wrong view? (References from the MN anthology) antony272b2 Dear Sarah, Howard, Larry and all, Majjhima 131: "And how is one taken in with regard to present qualities? There is the case where an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person who has not seen the noble ones, is not versed in the teachings of the noble ones, is not trained in the teachings of the noble ones, sees form as self, or self as possessing form, or form as in self, or self as in form. "He/she sees feeling as self, or self as possessing feeling, or feeling as in self, or self as in feeling. "He/she sees perception as self, or self as possessing perception, or perception as in self, or self as in perception. "He/she sees thought-fabrications as self, or self as possessing thought-fabrications, or thought-fabrications as in self, or self as in thought-fabrications. "He/she sees consciousness as self, or self as possessing consciousness, or consciousness as in self, or self as in consciousness. This is called being taken in with regard to present qualities. "And how is one not taken in with regard to present qualities? There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones who has seen the noble ones, is versed in the teachings of the noble ones, is well-trained in the teachings of the noble ones, does not see form as self, or self as possessing form, or form as in self, or self as in form. "He/she does not see feeling as self, or self as possessing feeling, or feeling as in self, or self as in feeling. "He/she does not see perception as self, or self as possessing perception, or perception as in self, or self as in perception. "He/she does not see thought-fabrications as self, or self as possessing thought-fabrications, or thought-fabrications as in self, or self as in thought-fabrications. "He/she does not see consciousness as self, or self as possessing consciousness, or consciousness as in self, or self as in consciousness. This is called not being taken in with regard to present qualities. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.131.than.html http://www.suttareadings.net/audio/index.html#mn.131 When I first listened to the audio I thought it was boring, but now I laugh when I appreciate that there aren't any loopholes left after the Buddha has covered all the possible combinations! With metta / Antony. #73856 From: "Andrew" Date: Fri Jun 29, 2007 9:57 pm Subject: Re: Paramattha and conventional corvus121 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connie wrote: > > > dear Andrew, > this has been working like a charm for me, thank you! > delighted, > connie > > > I hereby announce that all my future DSG > posts will be written in Old Icelandic. None of you understand Old > Icelandic. Nevertheless, my posts are to be understood. Period. Oh. Thank you, O elephantine memoriser. ;-{ Puffin for lunch, anyone? #73857 From: connie Date: Sat Jun 30, 2007 6:15 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (61) nichiconn dear friends, 8. A.t.thakanipaato 1. Siisuupacaalaatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa part 2 txt: 197. "Taavati.msaa ca yaamaa ca, tusitaa caapi devataa; nimmaanaratino devaa, ye devaa vasavattino; tattha citta.m pa.niidhehi, yattha te vusita.m pure"ti.- Aya.m gaathaa kaamasaggesu nikanti.m uppaadehiiti tattha uyyojanavasena theri.m samaapattiyaa caavetukaamena maarena vuttaa. RD: Maara. Now think upon the Three-and-Thirty Gods, And on the gods who rule in realm of Shades, On those who reign in heaven of Bliss, and on Those higher deities who live where life Yet flows by way of sense and of desire: *301 Think and thither aspire with longing heart, Where in past ages thou hast lived before. (197) *301 The 'higher deities' are the two last in these five Deva worlds which, by the Buddhists, were included with hell, the Peta's or ghosts, animals, men, Asuras, and firmamental spirits, in the 'Kaamaloka of sense-desire,' inferior in space to the Heavens of 'Form' and the 'Formless.' They were the Nimmaanarati and Paranimmita-vaasavatti gods. In {Isidasi} Ps. lxxiii. (Commentary) I attempt a translation of the last two titles of gods, but they are more translatable in prose than in verse. Pruitt: 197. The Taavati.msa and Yaama and Tusita devataas, the Nimmaanarati devas and the Vasavattii devas - apply your mind there where you lived before.* This verse was spoken by Maara, who wanted to cause the therii to fall away from her attainment by inciting her there, saying, "Long for birth in the heavens of the sensual spheres." *The verses here are very similar to those at S I 133 but with the reply to Maara attributed to Upacaalaa. {CDB: I. Sagaathaavagga 5. Bhikkhuniisa.myutta 7. Upacaalaa At Saavatthii. Then, in the morning, the bhikkhuni Upacaalaa dressed ... she sat down at the foot of a tree for the day's abiding. Then Maara the Evil One approached the bhikkhunii Upacaalaa and said to her: "Where do you wish to be reborn, bhikkhunii?" "I do not wish to be reborn anywhere, friend." 540. "There are Taavati.msa and Yaama devas, And devataas of the Tusita realm, Devas who take delight in creating, And devas who exercise control. Direct your mind there [to those realms] And you'll experience delight." [The bhikkhunii Upacaalaa:] 541. "There are Taavati.msa and Yaama devas, And devatass of the Tusita realm, Devas who take delight in creating, And devas who exercise control. They are still bound by sensual bondage, They come under Maara's control. 542. "All the world is on fire, All the world is burning, All the world is ablaze, All the world is quaking. 543. "That which does not quake or blaze, That to which worldlings do not resort, Where there is no place for Maara: That is where my mind delights." Then Maara the Evil One, realizing, "The bhikkhunii Upacaalaa knows me," sad and disappointed, disappeared right there. ==== tbc, connie #73858 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 30, 2007 7:10 am Subject: Conditions, Ch 5, Conascence-condition, no 4. nilovg Dear friends, As to the third class of phenomena to which conascence-condition pertains, the patisandhi-citta arising in the five-khandha planes (where there are nåma and rúpa) and the rúpa which is the heart-base for the patisandhi-citta condition one another by way of conascence. In the planes where there are nåma and rúpa each citta needs a physical base (vatthu) or place of origin. The vatthu for seeing is the eye-base, and each of the sense-cognitions (the five pairs, pañca- viññånas, of which one is kusala vipåkacitta and one akusala vipåkacitta) has its corresponding base. The cittas other than the sense-cognitions have the heart-base as their vatthu. During life the rúpa which is the vatthu has to arise before the citta which is dependant on it. However, at the moment of rebirth it is different. When the patisandhi-citta arises kamma produces the heart-base at the same time as the patisandhi-citta which is the mental result of kamma, vipåkacitta, and this citta arises at the heart-base. In the planes where there are nåma and rúpa the patisandhi-citta and the heart-base cannot arise without one other. They condition one another by way of conascence. The heart-base is not the only rúpa produced by kamma at the first moment of our life. Kamma produces at that moment three groups of rúpa: one group with the heart-base, one group with the bodybase and one group with sex, masculinity or femininity. In each of these groups the eight inseparable rúpas [1] and life-faculty (jívitindriya) [2] are included as well, thus there are three groups of ten rúpas produced by kamma at the moment of our birth. Without the patisandhi-citta these groups could not arise at the moment of birth. Thus, the patisandhi-citta is conascence-condition for the three groups of rúpas produced by kamma at that moment, but only the heart-base among these rúpas is in turn conascence-condition for the patisandhi-citta, this citta could not arise without the heart-base. ----------- 1.The four Great Elements and in addition: colour, odour, flavour and nutritive essense. These eight are present in each group of rúpas. 2. This rúpa is present in all groups produced by kamma, not in groups produced by citta, temperature or nutrition. It only arises with rúpas of the body, not with external materiality. ******* Nina. #73859 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 30, 2007 7:17 am Subject: Listening to the dhamma, Ch 4, no 3. nilovg Dear friends, The second stage of insight is paccaya-pariggaha-ñåna, discerning the conditions of nåma and rúpa. This is paññå which realizes the dependency on conditions of nåma and rúpa when they are arising. This stage of insight cannot arise before the first stage of insight. If nåma is not known as nåma and rúpa as rúpa, how could there be clear understanding of their different conditions? Seeing is dependent on the eye and on visible object, without the rúpas which are eyesense and visible object there could not be seeing. The conditionality of nåma and rúpa pertains to our daily life. When we speak the citta produces speech sound, so that words can be uttered. In reality there is no self who thinks of words, there are only nåma and rúpa depending on conditions which arise and fall away within split-seconds. When we study the åyatanas we can ponder over the conditions for nåma and rúpa, but at such moments there is still the deeply rooted idea of “I” who thinks about conditions. This is different from the paññå which directly realizes through the mind-door the conditionality of nåma and rúpa. At the moments of vipassanå ñåna there is no idea of self who understands. The third stage of vipassanå ñåna is sammasana ñåna, comprehension by groups. This is paññå which clearly realizes the succession of nåma and rúpa as they arise and fall away very rapidly. Someone who has not reached even the first stage of insight may erroneously think that he can experience the arising and falling away of cittas. However, this is impossible. First the difference between nåma and rúpa must be realized, otherwise one does not clearly know what is nåma, entirely different from rúpa. The order of the stages of insight cannot be altered, each stage is a condition for the following stage, provided paññå has been developed to the degree that a following stage can be reached. The first three stages of insight are still beginning stages, “tender insight”, “taruna vipassanå”. The following stages are mahå- vipassanå. The first stage of mahå-vipassanå is udayabbaya ñåna, knowledge of the arising and falling away of nåma and rúpa. This stage is different from the third stage, because paññå considers more clearly the arising and falling away of each kind of nåma and of rúpa separately, as they appear. It sees more clearly the danger and disadvantage of the arising and falling away of nåma and rúpa, and this leads to more detachment from them. This stage of insight and the eight following stages are balavå vipassanå, insight as power. Insight has become a power, it can arise in any circumstance. ******* Nina. #73860 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Jun 30, 2007 7:38 am Subject: Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, Thanks. I'm trying to work out whether there is anything to this view: TG: "It seems to me that some in this group prescribe a massive build-up of 'mental standpoints' regarding the so-called 'ultimate realities.' The Buddha, on the other hand, prescribes to break down and eject such standpoints." Scott: In particular, whether a consideration of paramattha dhammas can be seen as "a massive build up of "mental standpoints'". The exact Pali phrase upon which this view is based is: "adhi.t.thaanaabhinivesaanusayaa" (adhi.t.thaana + abhinivesa + anusayaa)" Scott: And, as Jon suggests: J: "My (uninformed) guess, going on the PED entry and the general context in the sutta, would be that it refers to wrong view." Scott: The portion of MN 112 given was: "Friends, with the destruction, fading away, cessation, giving up, and relinquishing of desire, lust, delight, craving, attraction, and clinging, AND OF MENTAL STANDPOINTS, adherences, and underlying tendencies regarding the eye, forms, eye-consciousness, and things cognizable through eye-consciousness, I have understood that my mind is liberated." MN 112 Scott: It seems to me that, when dealing with adhi.t.thaanaabhinivesaanusayaa, one is dealing with aspects of "mind, mind objects, mind-consciousness, and things cognizable [by the mind] through mind-consciousness". (...Manasmi.m aavuso, dhamme manovi~n~naa.ne manovi~n~naa.navi~n~naatabbesu dhammesu yo chando, yo raago, yaa nandi, yaa ta.nhaa, ye ca upayuupaadaanaa cetaso adhi.t.thaanaabhinivesaanusayaa, tesa.m khayaa viraagaa nirodhaa caagaa pa.tinissaggaa vimutta.m me cittanti pajaanaami. Eva.m kho me aavuso jaanato eva.m passato imesu chasu ajjhattikabaahiresu aayatanesu anupaadaaya aasavehi citta.m vimuttanti.) In particular, one is dealing with a certain 'relationship' to aspects of mind, etc., that being one of clinging. The clinging to things, including views, is what seems to be the thrust of the sutta. In this particular case, the view that "some in this group prescribe a massive build-up of 'mental standpoints' regarding the so-called 'ultimate realities'" would have to stand on whether or not one is being told here to cling to a view regarding paramattha dhammas. And, secondarily, whether it is 'wrong view' to consider paramattha dhammas. I don't read that the former is being suggested. I read the view stated above to be no more than a view clung to; I read the view to be expressing the sentiment that 'your' view is wrong and 'my' view is right. This is no more than polemics and the putting forth of a view, but the central concern regarding the clinging to views is not so much being missed as being acted out. As far as the latter, regarding paramattha dhammas, from the same sutta, one reads of the following: "the seen," "the heard," "the sensed," "the cognised," "the material form aggregate," "the feeling aggregate," "the perception aggregate," "the formations aggregate," "the consciousness aggregate," "the earth element," "the water element," "the fire element" "air element," "the space element," "the consciousness element," "six internal and external bases," "the eye and forms," "the ear and sounds," "the nose and odours," "the tongue and flavours," "the body and tangibles," "the mind and mind objects," "the eye, forms, eye-consciousness, and things cognisable [by the mind] through eye-consciousness," "the ear, sounds, ear consciousness, and things cognisable [by the mind] through ear-consciousness," "the nose, odours, nose-consciousness, and things cognisable [by the mind] through nose-consciousness," "the tongue, flavours, and things cognisable [by the mind] through tongue-consciousness," "the body, tangibles, and things cognisable [by the mind] through body-consciousness,"the mind, mind-objects, and things cognisable [by the mind] through mind-consciousness." Then, I'd say, Nibbaana is noted in the phrase: "It is by knowing thus, seeing thus...that through not clinging my mind is liberated from the taints." This list includes ruupa, naama, and Nibbaana; these are, for all intents and purposes, the paramattha dhammas. Sarah: "...SN12:15 Kaccaanagotta Sutta (Bodhi transl): "This world, Kaccaana, is for the most part shackled by engagement, clinging, and adherence. But this one [with right view (i.e 'this noble disciple')] does not become engaged and cling through that engagement and clinging, mental standpoint, adherence, underlying tendency ('adhi.t.haanaabhinivesaanusayaa'); he does not take a stand about 'my self.'" Note 32, BB:"....Spk says that craving and views are also called "mental standpoints" (adhi.t.thaana) because they are the foundation for the (unwholesome) mind, and "adherences and underlying tendencies" (abhinivesaanusaya) because they adhere to the mind and lie latent within it. Spk connects the verb adhi.t.thaati to the following "attaa me," and I conform to this interpretation in the translation." Scott: This is a helpful clarification. It is correct to suggest that it is the clinging to views that is the problem. The view, "...[t]he Buddha, on the other hand, prescribes to break down and eject such standpoints..." is a polemical statement expressing a view that there is something problematic with a consideration of paramattha dhammas; this is a view taken against a view. This misses the point of the sutta. In reading the sutta, the Buddha takes no such stand vis-a-vis paramattha dhammas. In fact he lists them exhaustively. The sutta points out the problem with clinging to anything, including views. There is right view and there is wrong view. Clinging to right view is a problem. The fact that clinging to the view is a problem says nothing about the rightness or wrongness of the view. Sincerely, Scott. #73861 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 30, 2007 7:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sammaadi.t.thi study corner nilovg Dear Scott, Co. to the expression 'With the arising of feeling there is the arising of craving'. <'Feeling', resultant feeling [vipaaka] is meant. How does it become condition for craving at the six doors? By reason of its fitness to be enjoyed. For, through the enjoyment of pleasurable feeling living beings who love that feeling produce craving for it, become passionate with lust for that feeling, and wish only for a pleasant object at the door of the eye. And having obtained it they enjoy it. They do honour to craftsmen and the like who provide pleasant objects. Similarly they wish for pleasant sounds and so forth. They get and enjoy those sounds and so on. They pay respect to those who provide pleasant objects: lute-players, perfumers, cooks, weavers, instructors of various arts and so on...> N: These are good reminders of the second noble truth: always searching for pleasant things to be enjoyed by oneself. We should consider the second noble Truth pertaining to this moment. We applaud good musicians, we praise a skilled cook when in a restaurant. Nina. Op 29-jun-2007, om 13:13 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: > "And what is craving, what is the origin of craving, what is the > cessation of craving, what is the way leading to the cessation of > craving? There are six classes of craving: craving for forms, craving > for sounds, craving for odours, craving for flavours, craving for > tangibles, craving for mind-objects. With the arising of feeling > there is the arising of craving. With the cessation of feeling there > is the cessation of craving. The way leading to the cessation of > craving is just this Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view...right > concentration. #73862 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Jun 30, 2007 8:07 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sammaadi.t.thi study corner scottduncan2 Dear Nina, Thank you for providing the commentary. The clarifications are always helpful: Co: "'Feeling', resultant feeling [vipaaka] is meant. How does it become condition for craving at the six doors? By reason of its fitness to be enjoyed..." N: These are good reminders of the second noble truth: always searching for pleasant things to be enjoyed by oneself. We should consider the second noble Truth pertaining to this moment. We applaud good musicians, we praise a skilled cook when in a restaurant." Scott: I find music to be extremely pleasant (although we don't share the same tastes, do we ;-) ). I love to hear it. I'm learning to make it, I guess so I can hear more of it. I like to consider how this all centres on resultant feeling. Sincerely, Scott. #73863 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 30, 2007 7:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) nilovg Dear Scott, Adhi.t.thaana also means foundation. This is in conformity with Sarah's last quote from the Co. : I think this does not only pertain to mind objects, mind- consciousness, but to all six doors. This becomes clearer by the whole list of nama and rupa you give: An impressive list! Nina. Op 30-jun-2007, om 16:38 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: > It seems to me that, when dealing with > adhi.t.thaanaabhinivesaanusayaa, one is dealing with aspects of "mind, > mind objects, mind-consciousness, and things cognizable [by the mind] > through mind-consciousness #73864 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Jun 30, 2007 8:55 am Subject: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) scottduncan2 Dear Nina, Thanks again, it's like we're chatting over coffee today - wouldn't that be something to cling to? N: "Adhi.t.thaana also means foundation...I think this does not only pertain to mind objects, mind-consciousness, but to all six doors..." Me: "It seems to me that, when dealing with adhi.t.thaanaabhinivesaanusayaa, one is dealing with aspects of "mind, mind objects, mind-consciousness, and things cognizable [by the mind] through mind-consciousness..." Scott: I'd appreciate further clarification. I was thinking that adhi.t.thaanaabhinivesaanusayaa was naama (although in relation to ruupa at times), and hence the speculation. So yes, all six doors, but all following mind-door processes. The views arise 'in the mind' as it were. Can you set me straight? Sincerely, Scott. #73865 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sat Jun 30, 2007 6:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) TGrand458@... In a message dated 6/30/2007 8:38:59 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: is a polemical statement expressing a view that there is something problematic with a consideration of paramattha dhammas; this is a view taken against a view. This misses the point of the sutta. In reading the sutta, the Buddha takes no such stand vis-a-vis paramattha dhammas. Hi Scott You guys have it any way you like it. If you want to ADD a "paramattha dhammas" view into/onto the Suttas that have no such teaching, go right ahead. When the Buddha lists the things you call "paramattha dhammas" and says they need to be seen ... he does not say they need to be seen as "paramattha dhammas." What he DOES SAY is that they need to be seen as IMPERMANENT, AFFLICTING, AND NONSELF. If that's a "polemical statement," so be it. A little honesty is all I ask. TG #73866 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jun 30, 2007 10:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: flashbacks and guilt upasaka_howard Hi, Connie - -----Original Message----- From: connie To: dsg Sent: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 11:58 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: flashbacks and guilt ????????????????????? you were reading the same pdf? p43. The Fast Way to Freedom: < ...The great sage, Buddha, said, "be wise." Side-step the traps that trick you into believing that 'you are'. It's a delusion. Whatever deep desires you may have, practise for their extinction. Be mindful all the time...> --------------------------- Howard: No, just reading your post. --------------------------- thought i might read the www.sacred-texts.com/bud/sbe10/sbe1036.htm version alongside this one next. --------------------------- Howard: I'm gonna save this post so I can save that link on my home computer when I return to NY -------------------------- peace, connie ======================== With metta, Howard #73867 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jun 30, 2007 11:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] was flashbacks and guilt, magic show. upasaka_howard -----Original Message----- From: Nina van Gorkom To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 2:49 am Subject: [dsg] was flashbacks and guilt, magic show. Hi, Nina - N: I think it is so helpful to continue here seeing also meditation as a magic show. One should not stop here, and continue to develop pa~n~naa that sees through it all, otherwise one may get stuck. Nama and rupa all along. As you, Howard expressed it so well: This is to be applied at every moment, also now. As Connie quoted: Nina. ================================== I agree, Nina. Your is a valid warning. The meditation, and the associated wholesome states are simply useful steps alonng the way - cultivation. With metta, Howard #73868 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 30, 2007 11:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sammaadi.t.thi study corner nilovg Dear Scott, I remember, we have different tastes! It centers on resultant feeling, arising with seeing, hearing, etc. We do not stop playing music, but in between, you know! Nothing is excluded from satipatthana. Nina. Op 30-jun-2007, om 17:07 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: > (although we don't share > the same tastes, do we ;-) ). I love to hear it. I'm learning to > make it, I guess so I can hear more of it. I like to consider how > this all centres on resultant feeling. #73869 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 30, 2007 11:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) nilovg Dear Scott, it is the foundation for adherences (to wrong view) and latent tendencies. ------ S: all six doors, but all following mind-door processes. The views arise 'in the mind' as it were. ------- N: It is somewhat complicated here, because anusaya itself does not arise, it is dormant in the citta. I did not follow the original thread and the sutta, so I do not know whether it is only in mind- door processes. But as soon as I see anusaya, I remember: it does not arise in any process. It can condition the arising of akusala citta. Nina. Op 30-jun-2007, om 17:55 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: > I was thinking that > adhi.t.thaanaabhinivesaanusayaa was naama #73870 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 30, 2007 11:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) nilovg Dear TG, sorry, I have no gift for poems, but enjoy them. I like your polemical statement, very honest! We cannot say of a table that it is IMPERMANENT, AFFLICTING, AND NONSELF. A table is a concept. There is something else, non-concepts and this we can call paramattha dhammas, but you need not call them like that. What is in a name? Nina. Op 30-jun-2007, om 19:36 heeft TGrand458@... het volgende geschreven: > What he DOES SAY is that they need to be seen as IMPERMANENT, > AFFLICTING, AND NONSELF. > > If that's a "polemical statement," so be it. A little honesty is > all I ask. #73871 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Jun 30, 2007 12:12 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) scottduncan2 Hi TG, Thanks for the reply: TG: "...When the Buddha lists the things you call "paramattha dhammas" and says they need to be seen ... he does not say they need to be seen as "paramattha dhammas." What he DOES SAY is that they need to be seen as IMPERMANENT, AFFLICTING, AND NONSELF..." Scott: Firstly, what do you think of the list extracted from MN 112? What are these things? "..."the seen," "the heard," "the sensed," "the cognised," "the material form aggregate," "the feeling aggregate," "the perception aggregate," "the formations aggregate," "the consciousness aggregate," "the earth element," "the water element," "the fire element" "air element," "the space element," "the consciousness element," "six internal and external bases," "the eye and forms," "the ear and sounds," "the nose and odours," "the tongue and flavours," "the body and tangibles," "the mind and mind objects," "the eye, forms, eye-consciousness, and things cognisable [by the mind] through eye-consciousness," "the ear, sounds, ear consciousness, and things cognisable [by the mind] through ear-consciousness," "the nose, odours, nose-consciousness, and things cognisable [by the mind] through nose-consciousness," "the tongue, flavours, and things cognisable [by the mind] through tongue-consciousness," "the body, tangibles, and things cognisable [by the mind] through body-consciousness,"the mind, mind-objects, and things cognisable [by the mind] through mind-consciousness." Then, I'd say, Nibbaana is noted in the phrase: "It is by knowing thus, seeing thus...that through not clinging my mind is liberated from the taints." This list includes ruupa, naama, and Nibbaana..." Scott: Secondly, yeah, disengaging from a label ("paramattha dhammas"), the view expressed above acknowledges the existence of these things listed. I read the view quoted above as accepting these things and as acknowledging their characteristics. Of course these things can be seen according to these characteristics because they have these characteristics. If the existence of these things is acknowledged, as it seems, then the problem with "paramattha dhammas" is a problem with a label due to a view about another view. There seems to be no fundamental disagreement doctrinally when the view is stripped down (unless the list of things extracted from the sutta is a problem in some way) - just a polemical debate about what is liked or not liked philosophically. We likely won't see eye to eye here, TG, but just for fun: Views polemical, composed poetical, meant didactical, remain repetitical. ;-) Sincerely, Scott. #73872 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sat Jun 30, 2007 8:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) TGrand458@... In a message dated 6/30/2007 12:42:43 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Dear TG, sorry, I have no gift for poems, but enjoy them. I like your polemical statement, very honest! We cannot say of a table that it is IMPERMANENT, AFFLICTING, AND NONSELF. A table is a concept. There is something else, non-concepts and this we can call paramattha dhammas, but you need not call them like that. What is in a name? Nina. Hi Nina 1) What is in a name? Apparently a whole lot as you folks love to drill it home at every chance. ;-) 2) We cannot say a table is impermanent eh? The Buddha, in the Suttas, said that things such as "ships" were impermanent, "mountains" were impermanent, "azde handles" were impermanent, "oceans" were impermanent, etc., etc., etc. Guess he had a slightly different motivation for his teachings then perhaps you do? 3) This perhaps should be addressed to Sarah...but how is "eye" a non-concept? I might see how "eye-sense" could be considered non-concept (with a little slack.) But "eye" seems so obviously concept. TG #73873 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Jun 30, 2007 1:06 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) scottduncan2 Dear Nina, Thanks for the reply: N: "It is somewhat complicated here, because anusaya itself does not arise, it is dormant in the citta. I did not follow the original thread and the sutta, so I do not know whether it is only in mind- door processes. But as soon as I see anusaya, I remember: it does not arise in any process. It can condition the arising of akusala citta." Scott: I'll consider this. Anusayaa doesn't arise but serves as condition. As an aside, I read this, from the Pali list: "In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Alan McClure wrote: 1) Tappurisa compounds: Tappurisa compounds are composed of two or more words (adjectives, participles, pronouns, and nouns) and can be used as a noun or an adjective. The prefixed word is associated with the posterior word (which predominates) via a direct relation that may have the quality of the following cases, i.e., accusative, instrumental, dative, genitive, ablative, or locative. A Tappurisa compound which helps to illustrate this is "mad-house." This may be explained by a dative relation such as "house for the mad" as is the common usage of the word in English, or if it is indeed that "the mad" own the house, then it may be "house of the mad" with a genitive relation, though this sense of the term "Mad-house" in English is not usual." http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pali/message/11421 Scott: If you have time, can you say something of this in relation to the compound: adhi.t.thaanaabhinivesaanusayaa? Sincerely, Scott. #73874 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sat Jun 30, 2007 9:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) TGrand458@... Hi Scott In a message dated 6/30/2007 1:13:19 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: Hi TG, Thanks for the reply: TG: "...When the Buddha lists the things you call "paramattha dhammas" and says they need to be seen ... he does not say they need to be seen as "paramattha dhammas." What he DOES SAY is that they need to be seen as IMPERMANENT, AFFLICTING, AND NONSELF..." Scott: Firstly, what do you think of the list extracted from MN 112? What are these things? ........................................... NEW TG: They are aggregates and elements. They are components. They are conditioned and stand only in reference to supporting conditions. They have no quality that is "of themselves." After carefully investigating them, the would appear as VOID, HOLLOW, and INSUBSTANTIAL. (Buddha's words not mine.") A view that drives home the idea of "ultimate realities with their own characteristics," is IMO, the antithesis of such elements appearing as void, hollow, and insubstantial. It also subverts insight into "conditionality constructions" IMO. ................................................ "..."the seen," "the heard," "the sensed," "the cognised," "the material form aggregate," "the feeling aggregate," "the perception aggregate," "the formations aggregate," "the consciousness aggregate," "the earth element," "the water element," "the fire element" "air element," "the space element," "the consciousness element," "six internal and external bases," "the eye and forms," "the ear and sounds," "the nose and odours," "the tongue and flavours," "the body and tangibles," "the mind and mind objects," "the eye, forms, eye-consciousness, and things cognisable [by the mind] through eye-consciousness,eye-consciousness," "the ear, sounds, ear consci cognisable [by the mind] through ear-consciousness,cognisable [by t odours, nose-consciousness, and things cognisable [by the mind] through nose-consciousness,through nose-consciousness," "the cognisable [by the mind] through tongue-consciousnescognisable [by the tangibles, and things cognisable [by the mind] through body-consciousness,body-consciousness,"the mind, mind-objects, and t the mind] through mind-consciousness.the mind] through mind-conscious noted in the phrase: "It is by knowing thus, seeing thus...that through not clinging my mind is liberated from the taints." This list includes ruupa, naama, and Nibbaana..." ............................................. NEW TG: Your post does not identify the source of this quote or the opinions expressed at the end about Nibbana being in this list. If we are still dealing with MN 112, then I don't see any indication at all that Nibbana is included in the list. Excuse me, on further reading of the about quote, I see how they are trying to arrive at Nibbana being in the list. In fact, it seems a dishonest attempt to change what is actually in the Sutta. Nibbana is not in the list. Nibbana is achieved by detachment and relinquishment from the things in the list and is only stated as an "outcome." The person who contrived the above, seems to me to have made a dishonest attempt to try to get Nibbana listed as part of what they were probably trying to make a case for being -- "ultimate realities." That's conjecture on my part because the case is incomplete. But the last sentence indicates near proof of that conjecture. ............................................. Scott: Secondly, yeah, disengaging from a label ("paramattha dhammas"), the view expressed above acknowledges the existence of these things listed. I read the view quoted above as accepting these things and as acknowledging their characteristics. Of course these things can be seen according to these characteristics because they have these characteristics. ................................................ NEW TG: "They" don't have these characteristics. The qualities arise as they do due to "other" conditions. These "other" conditions also do not have "their own" qualities because "they" are conditioned...etc., etc., etc. But, if we want to be less accurate and simplify, then I would accept that elements have certain qualities. But these qualities are certainly not "their own" nor are they "ultimate realities". The difference being that one view is highly inclusive of conditionality principles and highlights them as insight fodder. The other view sees things as separate entities...even if unwittingly. ......................................................... If the existence of these things is acknowledged, as it seems, ............................................................ NEW TG: The "existence" is acknowledged not as an "ultimate reality" or as "ultimately existing," but merely as components by which to reflect off of as insight tools. Hence, the Buddha doesn't ever call them "ultimate realities." Surely he would of called them such if it was as important as folks are claiming. "He who sees the arising of phenomena (the world) does not believe in the non-existence of phenomena (the world). He who sees the ceasing of phenomena (the world) does not believe in the existence of phenomena (the world.)" The Buddha doesn't teach any ontology with a relation to any view of existence or non-existence. He teaches conditionality, impermanence, affliction, nonself. He teaches detachment and relinquishment from all conditioned things. The elements that are used as tools to decipher the truth of the teachings are not taught as "ontological existants." They are not taught as "ultimate realities with their own characteristics." But THEY ARE taught as -- conditional, void, hollow, insubstantial, impermanent, afflicting, nonself. Yes, these terms, not "ultimate realities," are found in the suttas! ........................................................... then the problem with "paramattha dhammas" is a problem with a label due to a view about another view. There seems to be no fundamental disagreement doctrinally when the view is stripped down (unless the list of things extracted from the sutta is a problem in some way) - ...................................................... NEW TG: I agree. There is only a small difference doctrinally between, let's say, Sarah and myself. But unfortunately that "small difference" is crucially important in the minds ability to disengage from conditions IMO. To me, its a matter of conditionality being well seen and therefore disengaging the mind; vs not being well seen and losing power to disengage the mind. IMO, a good insight into conditionality would not allow a mind to see anything (or any thing) as having "its own characteristic." One simply could not even speak in such a manner. Hence, the Suttas did not. .............................................................. just a polemical debate about what is liked or not liked philosophically. .......................................................... NEW TG: From my above, you can see I feel it is more important than that and there is more to it than that. .......................................................... We likely won't see eye to eye here, TG, but just for fun: Views polemical, composed poetical, meant didactical, remain repetitical. ............................................................ NEW TG: This new accusation about "polemical" seems to me to smack of a way to try to silence an opposing argument. Is it your new clever tactic? Or are you saying that everyone who proffers an idea about what the Suttas/Dhamma mean is being polemical? Should I remain silent when folks are regularly saying the Buddha taught this or that...when in fact the Suttas/Vinaya do not indicate it? ... when their views are based of commentarial exegesis, and instead of saying so, they claim the Buddha taught it? To me this isn't right! To me its not honest. TG OUT #73875 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Jun 30, 2007 2:45 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) scottduncan2 Hi TG, Thanks for the reply. I read it a few times. I think "TG OUT" means the conversation is over. If not let me know. Scott out. #73876 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sat Jun 30, 2007 12:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) TGrand458@... In a message dated 6/30/2007 3:53:17 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: Hi TG, Thanks for the reply. I read it a few times. I think "TG OUT" means the conversation is over. If not let me know. Scott out. Hi Scott Not at all. I end all my "follow up" posts that have length to them that way. Due to a malfunction in "apparently" my aol program, my posts do not appear as I type them...so I add the dot dot ............ lines and NEW TG to try to clarify them. The TG OUT is a part of that. TG #73877 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Jun 30, 2007 6:09 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sammaadi.t.thi study corner lbidd2 Hi Nina, I have a qualm about this: N: "Co. to the expression 'With the arising of feeling there is the arising of craving'. <'Feeling', resultant feeling [vipaaka] is meant. How does it become condition for craving at the six doors? By reason of its fitness to be enjoyed. For, through the enjoyment of pleasurable feeling living beings who love that feeling produce craving for it, become passionate with lust for that feeling, and wish only for a pleasant object at the door of the eye. And having obtained it they enjoy it. They do honour to craftsmen and the like who provide pleasant objects. Similarly they wish for pleasant sounds and so forth. They get and enjoy those sounds and so on. They pay respect to those who provide pleasant objects: lute-players, perfumers, cooks, weavers, instructors of various arts and so on...>" L: It seems to me that _resultant_ feeling conditions the arising of craving only in the case of bodily feeling (and maybe in the case of a few other resultant consciousnesses such as receiving, investigation, and registration), but eye, ear, nose, and tongue consciousness are only accompanied by neutral feeling. Neutral feeling could condition craving for pleasant feeling, or, in certain circumstances, craving for more neutral feeling. But more often it is the feeling that accompanied past javana cittas that conditions the arising of craving. I was trying to figure out my craving for emails and I think it is that feeling of past javana cittas that conditions this craving, rather than a resultant feeling. Larry #73878 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat Jun 30, 2007 6:25 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) kenhowardau Hi TG and Scott, Don't let me interrupt; I would just like to raise a minor issue of protocol: ------------- TG to Scott: > After carefully investigating them, the would appear as VOID, HOLLOW, and INSUBSTANTIAL. (Buddha's words not mine.") -------------- I wonder if, in matters like these, reference could be made to previous conversations. Some of us understand 'void, hollow and insubstantial' to refer to the anatta characteristic. (And the commentaries verify that understanding.) Some others of us understand the words to mean that dhammas have no substance (sabhava). I may be wrong, but I think this is the Mahayana perspective. Whenever this perennial topic is brought up, there should (IMHO) be some recognition of our previous conversations and the different standpoints taken. Otherwise, Scott (in this case) is obliged to go through the laborious process of proving - yet again - that there is more than one way of interpreting "the Buddha's words." Ken H #73879 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sat Jun 30, 2007 2:40 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) TGrand458@... Hi Ken H In a message dated 6/30/2007 7:25:55 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, kenhowa@... writes: Hi TG and Scott, Don't let me interrupt; I would just like to raise a minor issue of protocol: ------------- TG to Scott: > After carefully investigating them, the would appear as VOID, HOLLOW, and INSUBSTANTIAL. (Buddha's words not mine.") -------------- I wonder if, in matters like these, reference could be made to previous conversations. Some of us understand 'void, hollow and insubstantial' to refer to the anatta characteristic. (And the commentaries verify that understanding.commentaries verify that un the words to mean that dhammas have no substance (sabhava). I may be wrong, but I think this is the Mahayana perspective. ......................................... NEW TG: The Buddha is referring to how the 5 aggregates would appear to him if inspected, pondered, and investigated carefully. Its actually a Sutta perspective. Samyutta Nikaya -- Connected Discourses of the Buddha, Page 951 - 952. ..................................... Whenever this perennial topic is brought up, there should (IMHO) be some recognition of our previous conversations and the different standpoints taken. Otherwise, Scott (in this case) is obliged to go through the laborious process of proving - yet again - that there is more than one way of interpreting "the Buddha's words." Ken H ......................................... NEW TG: Interpreting the Buddha's words can take virtually any path. The above is just a translation of Bhikkhu Bodhi's. The source for the top quote was noted earlier in the day regarding this topic so I figured the reference was well known. But I think its fair to ask for the reference to be sited on each occasion. I will try to do so in the future. TG #73880 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat Jun 30, 2007 7:36 pm Subject: Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) kenhowardau Hi TG, I didn't mean to interrupt, but it seems I have to make a federal case out of this after all. :-) Before I start, I might comment on the layout of your posts. You said that AOL was changing the way your posts appeared, and I have to agree it is disconcerting. Every time (or so it seems) you reply to one of my posts there are more typo's in my words than were there in the original. I don't know about AOL, but I have noticed that Yahoo makes cutting and pasting (into a word processor) harder to than it used to be. When I cut from the main messages page I lose all the carriage returns and new paragraph spacings. Sorting them out can lead to typo's. However, if I click on the message title and bring the message up on its own then I can cut and paste properly as before. Moving on to more important matters: ------------------ <. . .> TG: > The Buddha is referring to how the 5 aggregates would appear to him if inspected, pondered, and investigated carefully. Its actually a Sutta perspective. Samyutta Nikaya -- Connected Discourses of the Buddha, Page 951 - 952. ---------------- Does this mean you didn't understand a word I said? My point was that there could be more than one way of interpreting the Buddha's words. There is no question of "a sutta perspective" as opposed to an Abhidhamma perspective or a commentarial perspective. They all have exactly the same perspective. If they didn't there would be something terribly wrong with the Pali texts. ---------------- <. . .> TG: > Interpreting the Buddha's words can take virtually any path. The above is just a translation of Bhikkhu Bodhi's. The source for the top quote was noted earlier in the day regarding this topic so I figured the reference was well known. But I think its fair to ask for the reference to be sited on each occasion. I will try to do so in the future. ---------------- Once again, you haven't understood my point at all. I was not asking for sutta references. We all know the sutta you are quoting from in this case. My point was that the meaning of 'void hollow and insubstantial' has been discussed many times at great length on DSG. If you could simply acknowledge the two fundamentally different interpretations of those words (rather than just saying "Buddha's words not mine") the conversation could flow much better, and it would be unnecessarily sidetracked. Ken H #73881 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Jun 30, 2007 8:32 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) scottduncan2 Hi TG, Thanks for clarifying. I remember this dilemma of yours now: TG: "Not at all. I end all my "follow up" posts that have length to them that way. Due to a malfunction in "apparently" my aol program...The TG OUT is a part of that." Scott: I was interested by the following: TG: "NEW TG: "They" don't have these characteristics. The qualities arise as they do due to "other" conditions. These "other" conditions also do not have 'their own' qualities because 'they' are conditioned...etc., etc., etc. "But, if we want to be less accurate and simplify, then I would accept that elements have certain qualities. But these qualities are certainly not "their own" nor are they "ultimate realities". "The difference being that one view is highly inclusive of conditionality principles and highlights them as insight fodder. The other view sees things as separate entities...even if unwittingly." Scott: I'll leave voidness, etc., for later because I really want to learn more about paccaya. Which version of 'conditionality' is used, I don't know. Please forgive the long quote below. Its from Guide to Conditional Relations, part 1, U Naarada, (pp.4-6). I've read it many times and I think it would be good to know in what sense the term is being used before we discuss. I hope you will consider it: "THE THREE METHODS OF TEACHING ON CAUSE AND EFFECT There are three methods of teaching on cause and effect, namely: (1) Noble Truths method, (2) Dependent Origination method and (3) Conditional Relations method. (1) Noble Truths Method Here craving, Origin Truth, is the cause and Suffering Truth is the effect. See K.S. III, p.30: 'He who takes delight, brethren, in body feeling, perception, the activities, consciousness,...is not released from suffering.' Thus, if there is the cause - the delight in the five aggregates which is craving - Origin Truth, then the effect, Suffering Truth - which consists of all kinds of suffering - will take place. When viewed with the eye of Truth Knowledge (sacca-~naa.na), and Insight Knowledge (vipassanaa-~naa.na), all the aggregates in the three planes of existence are all suffering. The common worldling cannot lay down this burden of suffering, so all kinds of peril and suffering have to be endured. Only when this burden of suffering is completely laid down will there be freedom from all peril and suffering and true happiness truly obtained. See Burden Sutta, K.S. III, p. 24. Again, the Noble Eightfold Path, which consists of Right Understanding and the rest, is Path Truth. This is the cause of release or deliverance, Nibbaana, Cessation Truth, which is the effect. Since there are different kinds of cessation, that which is Cessation Truth needs to be explained. The cessation of craving is due to: (1) its arising on accound of conditions then ceasing. This is known as cessation after arising (uppanna nirodha); (2) its non-arising because the conditions for its arising are absent. This is known as cessation without arising (anuppanna nirodha). Of the latter, there are five types, namely: (i) Cessation by the Opposite (tada"nga nirodha). Craving does not arise at the moment when great faultless consciousness arises; (ii) Cessation by Repression (vikkhambhana-nirodha). Craving ceases for some time when lofty faultless consciousnesses arise; (iii) Cessation by Destruction (sammucheda-nirodha). Craving is eradicated when Path-consciousness arises; (iv) Cessation by Tranquilisation (pa.tippassaddhi-nirodha). Craving which, after eradication, ceases forever when Fruition-consciousness arises; (v) Cessation by Deliverance (nissara.na-nirodha). This is Nibbaana. The third and fourth types bring about final cessation of craving so that it does not arise again. They are not like the fifth type which is permanent deliverance from craving. This is Nibbaana, Cessation Truth. This explains the Noble Truths method of teaching on cause and effect. (2) Dependent Origination Method Dependent Origination is the teaching about all that happens in one existence. Therefore, it teaches about: (i) the causes for coming into this present existence. These are ignorance and formations of past existences; (ii) the causes for the change to another existence. This is kamma-becoming which brings about birth, decay and death in another existence; (iii) the present existence. These are consciousness, mentality-materiality, six bases, contact, feeling, craving and attachment. Just as the taste of the water in the ocean can be known by tasting a drop of water in it, so also, what happens in each and every existence can be known when everything that happens in one existence is known. In this Dependent Origination, the primary cause of the round of rebirths is ignorance. And so the causes and effects are here expounded in this manner: Ignorance is the cause and formation are the effect and so on. (3) Conditional Relations Method In the Conditional Relations method all the states are treated with reference to 24 conditions to show how the causes and their effects are related. Here it is expounded that such-and-such a state, as cause, is related to such-and-such state, as effect, by such-and-such conditioning force. Note. The cause and effect expounded in these three methods of teaching must be considered separately, each in its own way. If they are taken together and any interaction between them is sought there will be doubt and perplexity. This is illustrated by the following examples: (i) Take the case of feeling and craving. In the Noble Truths methods, craving, Origin Truth, is the cause, and feeling, as Suffering Truth, is the effect. But in the Dependent Origination method, feeling is the cause and craving is the effect; (ii) Take the case of visible object and craving. In the Conditional Relations method when there is craving for visible object, visible object, the conditioning state of object condition, is the cause, and craving, the conditioned state, is the effect. But in the Noble Truths method, craving, Origin Truth, is the cause, and visible object, Suffering Truth, is the effect. Thus the three methods of teaching must be understood so as to be clear as to which method is applicable in any particular case of cause and effect." In what sense do you mean 'conditions'? Sincerely, Scott. #73882 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sat Jun 30, 2007 7:21 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) TGrand458@... Hi Ken H You're right. I didn't understand what you were getting at. Any "sidetracking" was unintentional. TG In a message dated 6/30/2007 8:36:47 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, kenhowa@... writes: Hi TG, I didn't mean to interrupt, but it seems I have to make a federal case out of this after all. :-) Before I start, I might comment on the layout of your posts. You said that AOL was changing the way your posts appeared, and I have to agree it is disconcerting. Every time (or so it seems) you reply to one of my posts there are more typo's in my words than were there in the original. I don't know about AOL, but I have noticed that Yahoo makes cutting and pasting (into a word processor) harder to than it used to be. When I cut from the main messages page I lose all the carriage returns and new paragraph spacings. Sorting them out can lead to typo's. However, if I click on the message title and bring the message up on its own then I can cut and paste properly as before. Moving on to more important matters: ------------------ <. . .> TG: > The Buddha is referring to how the 5 aggregates would appear to him if inspected, pondered, and investigated carefully. Its actually a Sutta perspective. Samyutta Nikaya -- Connected Discourses of the Buddha, Page 951 - 952. ---------------- Does this mean you didn't understand a word I said? My point was that there could be more than one way of interpreting the Buddha's words. There is no question of "a sutta perspective" as opposed to an Abhidhamma perspective or a commentarial perspective. They all have exactly the same perspective. If they didn't there would be something terribly wrong with the Pali texts. ---------------- <. . .> TG: > Interpreting the Buddha's words can take virtually any path. The above is just a translation of Bhikkhu Bodhi's. The source for the top quote was noted earlier in the day regarding this topic so I figured the reference was well known. But I think its fair to ask for the reference to be sited on each occasion. I will try to do so in the future. ---------------- Once again, you haven't understood my point at all. I was not asking for sutta references. We all know the sutta you are quoting from in this case. My point was that the meaning of 'void hollow and insubstantial' has been discussed many times at great length on DSG. If you could simply acknowledge the two fundamentally different interpretations of those words (rather than just saying "Buddha's words not mine") the conversation could flow much better, and it would be unnecessarily sidetracked. Ken H #73883 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 1, 2007 12:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sammaadi.t.thi study corner nilovg Hi Larry, Scott explained that we have to be careful according to which method we are considering realities. Scott's post on the different methods is very useful. Now we are considering the D.O.method. See Vis. Ch XVII, 230: only feeling that is vipaaka is mentioned here. The Vis. has the same text about honour to painters. etc. as the Co. to the Sammaadi.t.thi sutta. In 238, we find that all three feelings can be conditions for all kinds of craving. Here is mentioned what you say: Neutral feeling could condition craving for pleasant feeling. It depends on the method that is used. It is all more complex than it would seem at first sight. I think it is good that realities can be viewed from many angles. In that way oversimplification can be avoided. There is a long footnote from the Tiika (to Vis. 238) and we shall come to this later on. It states: Nina. Op 1-jul-2007, om 3:09 heeft LBIDD@... het volgende geschreven: > It seems to me that _resultant_ feeling conditions the arising of > craving only in the case of bodily feeling (and maybe in the case of a > few other resultant consciousnesses such as receiving, investigation, > and registration), but eye, ear, nose, and tongue consciousness are > only > accompanied by neutral feeling. Neutral feeling could condition > craving > for pleasant feeling, or, in certain circumstances, craving for more > neutral feeling. But more often it is the feeling that accompanied > past > javana cittas that conditions the arising of craving. #73884 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 1, 2007 2:21 am Subject: Dhammas and Impermanence. nilovg Hi TG, -------- TG: 1) What is in a name? Apparently a whole lot as you folks love to drill it home at every chance. ;-) -------- N: Seeing is always seeing. We can change the name, but its characteristic is always: the experience of visible object through the eyesense. True? --------- TG: 2) We cannot say a table is impermanent eh? The Buddha, in the Suttas, said that things such as "ships" were impermanent, "mountains" were impermanent, "azde handles" were impermanent, "oceans" were impermanent, etc., etc., etc. Guess he had a slightly different motivation for his teachings then perhaps you do? -------- N: We have to be careful and distinguish common, worldly usage of language (vohara) from explaining the true characteristics of realities. In general it can be said that a mountain is impermanent, and the Buddha would speak in common language when he considered his audience. But he would also explain in detail what is impermanent: S. IV, First Fifty, § 4: ------- TG: 3) This perhaps should be addressed to Sarah...but how is "eye" a non-concept? I might see how "eye-sense" could be considered non- concept (with a little slack.) But "eye" seems so obviously concept. ------- N: It is the same when the Buddha speaks about the eye, the ear, etc. Same section of S IV, §1: The eye is impermanent.. Or Ch 3, §24, abandoning: ------- Nina. #73885 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 1, 2007 2:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) nilovg Hi TG, Good, I looked it up in B.B. No substance, no sara, in Pali. Sorry, we cannot work without the Pali. You fall over sabhaava, but let us not discuss this again. Too many repetitions. The sutta word was: no sara, no substance, like a lump of foam. Nina. Op 1-jul-2007, om 3:40 heeft TGrand458@... het volgende geschreven: > NEW TG: The Buddha is referring to how the 5 aggregates would > appear to him > if inspected, pondered, and investigated carefully. > > Its actually a Sutta perspective. > > Samyutta Nikaya -- Connected Discourses of the Buddha, Page 951 - 952. #73886 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Jul 1, 2007 6:24 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Serious about Dhamma? Serious about one's defilements? jonoabb Hi Phil (and All) Sending this from Bangkok. Trying to catch up on some outstanding posts (from you and others) that were addressed to me. Apologies for the delay. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > > Hi Jon ... > > Obviously the development of all kinds of kusala was exhorted by the > > Buddha. But on my reading of the texts, when the Buddha extols the > > development of dana, sila or samatha he tends to do so by reference to > > the (contemporaneous) development of satipatthana. > > "Every word in the tipitaka is about developing understanding of > present realities." How often did I hear AS say something like that. > Even when I was listening to her I disagreed, and more so now. I > think it is a myth to say that there are not suttas that are all > about very conventional topics. I think forcing the paramattha into > one's reading of them is just forcing paramattha into things. But I > could certainly be wrong. But I could also be right. Yes, you could be right. And 'forcing' a meaning into one's reading of the suttas would not be the way to go. But it could be that that the deeper meaning is just not readily apparent to those of us whose understanding is less developed. So I think we should remain open to the possibility (as I know you do). If the teaching is as deep and difficult to see as the Buddha describes, it would make sense that he took every opportunity to get his message across. After all, there is no benefit to the liberation of the world in his talking about conventional topics in purely conventional terms, wouldn't you agree? > > That is to say, in > > the suttas that talk about the development of these levels of kusala > > there is also reference to the development of satipatthana. > > Well, I guess one has to read the full commentaries to find this > reference. There is certainly no reference to satipatthana in some > of the suttas I am thinking of. At a later stage (when you are more inclined to pursue the subject) it might be useful to look at some of these suttas and see whether there is or isn't any reference to satipatthaana in them. No hurry of course. > > I think there is a clear reason for this. Dana, sila and samatha, > > although of great merit, do not in and of themselves lead out of > > samsara. > > Right. As I have posted many times, they help to provide > conditions for deeper understanding. That is laid out very clearly > in so many suttas. Yes, agreed (as with much of your post). But we also need to pay attention to the way in which each particluar factor is a condition, because there is a wide range of ways in which the development of understanding is conditioned by the different conditioning factors. > > A practice of the development of these forms of kusala in > > isolation of the development of satipatthana (for example, in a person > > who had never heard the teachings) would likely bring with it an > > increase in the idea of a self who was developing greater kusala, i.e., > > more wrong view. > > Right. Fortunately I have heard the teaching, and know where the > path must lead. But I refuse to try to get ahead by forcing > paramattha level understanding into my practice just because it is > necessary for real liberation. That is just impatience. Yes, agreed again. Trying to force understanding is impatience. > I find it > really ironic that AS talks about people being impatient. An > excessive interest in deep topics such as bhavanga cittas, to give > one example, is nothing but impatience and excessive desire for > penetrating wisdom, in my opinion. Good to know about such things, > but to believe that seeing into them, or momentary cittas of any > kind, has immediate relevance to one's practice is impatience, in my > experience. Not for you? Fine. Yes again. "Excessive" interest indicates impatience, and probably an idea of self also. We've all seen it in others, even on this list, perhaps. But it should not necessarily be blamed on the person's teacher. > > That is why in order for these other forms of kusala to become more > > purified, the development of satipatthana is required. And this must be > > contemporaneous rather than sequential, for obvious reasons I think. > > Yes, eventually. The Kusala must be purified. No rushing that. Yes, agreed. Will pause here if you don't mind and reply to the rest separately. Jon #73887 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 1, 2007 6:47 am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 167 and Tiika. nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 167. Intro: In the previous section it was explained that the rebirth- consciousness did not come from a past life, although its conditions stem from the past. In this section it is further explained that this life is different from the past life but that the vipaakacitta that is the rebirth-consciousness is the result of past kamma. It is emphasized here that with respect to what arises from conditions there is neither absolute identity nor absolute otherness. ------------ Text Vis.167: And with a stream of continuity there is neither identity nor otherness. --------- N: The Tiika explains that there is no absolute identity with a stream of continuity, because there is the manifestation of another citta. Cittas succeed one another, they arise in continuity, and this is also the case when the dying-consciousness falls away and is immediately succeeded by the rebirth-consciousness. The rebirth- consciousness is another citta, arising in a new life. The Tiika explains that there is also no absolute otherness because of the continuous stream of cittas (santaanabandhato), just as in the case of the flames of a fire that arise from moment to moment in one continuity. -------- Text Vis: For if there were absolute identity in a stream of continuity, there would be no forming of curd from milk. And yet if there were absolute otherness, the curd would not be derived from the milk. And so too with all causally arisen things. ---------- N: The Tiika explains as to the expression ‘ For if there were absolute identity in a stream of continuity’, that in that case diversity would not be assumed which is wrong. The Tiika explains the expression ‘and so too’, which is the translation of ‘esa nayo’, this method. It states that it is the same with all things that arise from causes, such as a sprout that originates from a seed. The Tiika explains that if there would be absolute identity of the cittas that arise from causes, a deva destiny could not originate from a human destiny. Thus, in that case the dying-consciousness in the human plane could not be succeeded by the rebirth-consciousness in a deva plane. If there would be absolute otherness, there would not be fruit from kamma. -------- Text Vis.: And if that were so there would be an end to all worldly usage, which is hardly desirable. So neither absolute identity nor absolute otherness should be assumed here. ------------ N: The Tiika refers to the Samyutta Nikaaya (I, 60, Rohitassa) where Rohitassa says: ‘In past times, Lord, I was Rohitassa, the seer, son of Bhoja’. In conventional language (worldly usage, vohara) one could say: I was thus in a past life. In reality Rohitassa at present is not the same as Rohitassa in a past life, but the past life conditions the present life. This shows that there is neither absolute identity nor absolute otherness in a continuous stream of cittas arisen because of conditions. With the exclusion of absolute identity the wrong view of happiness and sorrow as done by oneself (saya.mkata.m sukha.m dukkhan"ti) is obstructed, and with the exclusion of absolute otherness the wrong view of happiness and sorrow as done by another (para.mkata.m sukha.m dukkhan"ti) is obstructed. By the explanation of the conditional arising of things the wrong view of the arising of realities without a cause is obstructed, as the Tiika explains. ----- Conclusion: What is emphasized here is that whatever arises does so because of its appropriate conditions. When someone dies there is no longer the citta of that person. The rebirth-consciousness is different from the dying-consciousness that it succeeds, but the rebirth-consciousness is conditioned by the past. The Tiika gives the example of a seed and a sprout. The sprout is not the seed, but it originates from the seed. Evenso curd is not the same as milk, but curd is made from milk. Kamma of the past is accumulated from moment to moment so that it can produce the rebirth-consciousness of the next life. Also good and bad inclinations of the past are accumulated from moment to moment so that they have the opportunity to condition the arising of kusala cittas and akusala cittas in the next life. So long as we are in the cycle there is an unbroken continuity of cittas that arise in succession. ******* Nina. #73888 From: connie Date: Sun Jul 1, 2007 6:57 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (61) nichiconn dear friends, 8. A.t.thakanipaato 1. Siisuupacaalaatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa part 3 On verse: 197. "Taavati.msaa ca yaamaa ca, tusitaa caapi devataa; nimmaanaratino devaa, ye devaa vasavattino; tattha citta.m pa.niidhehi, yattha te vusita.m pure"ti.- 197. The Taavati.msa and Yaama and Tusita devataas, the Nimmaanarati devas and the Vasavattii devas - apply your mind there where you lived before. txt: Tattha sahapu~n~nakaarino tetti.msa janaa yattha upapannaa, ta.m .thaana.m taavati.msanti. Tattha nibbattaa sabbepi devaputtaa taavati.msaa. Keci pana "taavati.msaati tesa.m devaana.m naamamevaa"ti vadanti. Dviihi devalokehi visi.t.tha.m dibba.m sukha.m yaataa upayaataa sampannaati yaamaa. Dibbaaya sampattiyaa tu.t.thaa paha.t.thaati tusitaa. Pakatipa.tiyattaaramma.nato atirekena ramitukaamataakaale yathaarucite bhoge nimminitvaa ramantiiti nimmaanaratino. Cittaruci.m ~natvaa parehi nimmitesu bhogesu vasa.m vattentiiti vasavattino. Tattha citta.m pa.niidhehiiti tasmi.m taavati.msaadike devanikaaye tava citta.m .thapehi, upapajjanaaya nikanti.m karohi. Caatumahaaraajikaana.m bhogaa itarehi nihiinaati adhippaayena taavati.msaadayova vuttaa. Yattha te vusita.m pureti yesu devanikaayesu tayaa pubbe vuttha.m. Aya.m kira pubbe devesu uppajjantii, taavati.msato pa.t.thaaya pa~ncakaamasagge sodhetvaa puna he.t.thato otarantii, tusitesu .thatvaa tato cavitvaa idaani manussesu nibbattaa. Pruitt: 197. There where the thirty-three (te-tti.msa) people who performed meritorious actions together are born, that place is called Taavati.msa ("belonging to the thirty-three"). All the devas who are born there are called Taavati.msa devas. But some say that Taavati.msa is only the name of those [thirty-three] devas. Those who are successful and have reached, have gone to, the superior divine happiness of the second deva world are called Yaama devas. Those who are pleased, gladdened by divine success are called Tusita [devas]. Those who delight in (ramanti) their own created (nimminitvaa) [objects of] enjoyment as much as they like whenever they want to delight highly in the object that was naturally created are called Nimmaanarati devas.* Those who have power over (vasa.m vattanti) pleasures created by others, who know mental pleasures, are called the Vasavatti devas.** Apply your mind there means: fix your mind on that group of devas, the Taavati.msa devas, etc, arouse longing for rebirth there. The Taavati.msa devas are mentioned: the meaning is that the pleasures belonging to the realm of the Four Great Kings*** are [considered] inferior by others. Where you lived before means: in the groups of devas with whom you lived before. It is said that formerly, beginning with birth as a deva in the Taavati.msa realm, she examined the five heavens of the sensual spheres, then descended below to live in the Tusita world, and when she died there, she was born here among men. *The devas who "delight in [their own] creations." **Shortened form for Paranimmita-vasavattii, the devas who "delight in the creations of others" (see EV II, p. 97). ***This is the lowest of the deva worlds that is just above the human plane. ===tbc, connie #73889 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 1, 2007 7:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) nilovg Dear Scott, It could be a tappurisa compound: adhi.t.thaana (foundation) +abhinivesa (adherence)+anusayaa (latent tendency). The foundation for the latent tendency of adherence (wrong view). Still, I do not know enough of compounds, because we shall learn also about Bahubbiihi compounds which are adjectival compounds whose posterior words are always nouns. Nina. Op 30-jun-2007, om 22:06 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: > If you have time, can you say something of this in relation to > the compound: > > adhi.t.thaanaabhinivesaanusayaa? #73890 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Jul 1, 2007 7:05 am Subject: Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) jonoabb Hi TG --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@... wrote: > > Hi Jon!!! ... > NEW TG: If they can compare the sutta, with direct experience, and see the > correctness of it at whatever depth capable; then confidence, faith, or > belief in the correctness of those teachings is appropriate IMO. > > When they go beyond what is seeable/knowable by themselves, and yet claim > its "the truth," then there is a problem of grasping after views/theories IMO. This is the point I was making. A person paraphrasing the texts to the best of his/her understanding is not claiming to be doing so on the basis of direct experience or knowledge. > If they do not have the direct knowledge, then they should say...this is in > the suttas, this is in the commentaries, etc. They should not quote > commentarial material and claim ... "the Buddha taught this" or "this is the Buddha's > teaching" IMO. It is well recognised among all of us here I think that the orthodox Theravada doctrine is that reflected in the commentaries, so there should not be any need to caveat everything said in the way you suggest. In any event, we all realise that an individual's attempted paraphrase is subject to all the limitations inherent in the befuddled mind of an ignorant worldling ;-)). > It should be said... "the commentaries have interpreted the Buddha's > teachings to be saying this although the Suttas do not say this verbatim." > > This way, the TRUTH is preserved. There's even a Sutta dealing with > preserving the truth that is not identical but quite relevant to this discussion. And making passing references to suttas without checking the source and quoting it for others to check and verify is not conducive to preserving the truth either! ;-)) > > It sure smacks of "citta entity view" IMO. > > > > What does, and why? > .................................................... > > NEW TG: The theory of "dhammas" (in this case cittas) as "ultimate > realities with their own characteristics." > .............................................. I think you are referring to the teaching on what is real at the present moment (collectively called 'dhammas'). According to this teaching, the different dhammas each have a distinguishing characteristic (otherwise they could not be differentiated). Examples are to be found in the descriptions know as the khandhas, ayatanas, elements, etc. > I suppose it'd be possible to divide folks here into 2 groups: those who > are inclined to talk in terms of their own experience, and those who > like to discuss what's in the texts. Never the twain shall meet, > perhaps ;-)) > ........................................................... > > NEW TG: Then there's those who talk of the crucial importance of direct > experience but when push comes to shove, they claim they are only repeated > what's in books. This makes me scratch my head...how do they know direct > experience is so crucial if they claim not to have it? They're probably just being > modest. Sorry, TG, but I think this is a distraction (to use a KenH term). Jon #73891 From: "Larry" Date: Sun Jul 1, 2007 7:36 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sammaadi.t.thi study corner lbidd2 Hi Nina and Scott, Thanks for your reply. I couldn't find Scott's explanation, but I took a look at Vism.XVII,231. Does this mean that the pleasant or unpleasant feeling associated with hearing, smelling, tasting, and seeing is the feeling that arises with the receiving, investigating, and registration consciousnesses in the 5-door process? Is the feeling that arises with these three kinds of consciousness always the same? In the case of touching consciousness is the feeling associated with it always the same as the feeling that arises with body door receiving, investigating, and registration? Larry --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Larry, > Scott explained that we have to be careful according to which method > we are considering realities. Scott's post on the different methods > is very useful. Now we are considering the D.O.method. See Vis. Ch > XVII, 230: only feeling that is vipaaka is mentioned here. #73892 From: "Larry" Date: Sun Jul 1, 2007 7:54 am Subject: Re: Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 167 and Tiika. lbidd2 Hi Nina, Someone might say that dependent arising being a matter of "neither the same nor different" means that nama and rupa are neither the same nor different. How would you answer? Larry #73893 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jul 1, 2007 7:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and TG) - -----Original Message----- From: Nina van Gorkom To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 1:42 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) Dear TG, sorry, I have no gift for poems, but enjoy them. I like your polemical statement, very honest! We cannot say of a table that it is IMPERMANENT, AFFLICTING, AND NONSELF. A table is a concept. There is something else, non-concepts and this we can call paramattha dhammas, but you need not call them like that. What is in a name? Nina. Op 30-jun-2007, om 19:36 heeft TGrand458@... het volgende geschreven: > What he DOES SAY is that they need to be seen as IMPERMANENT, > AFFLICTING, AND NONSELF. > > If that's a "polemical statement," so be it. A little honesty is > all I ask. ==================================== Nina, in a sense there is no table. But in another sense, in terms of a variety of associated mental operations and experiences, there is. That issue aside, I think that care must be taken in saying that a table is not "impermanent, afflictive, and non-self". The Buddha described many conventional objects in such terms, especially as regards impermanence and dukkha. Are there not concepts that are clung to and thereby conditions for suffering? Also, denying impermanence, affliction, and non-self to conventional objects must not allow for affirming permanence, satisfactoriness, and self with respect to them. The foregoing is one issue, the matter of the importance of concepts and not avoiding application of Dhammic matters to them. But there is another issue to consider as well: Nina, pleasant bodily sensations (for example) as entities, are concepts also. What we feel in the body at any time is actual experience, but as soon as it is characterized via speech and conceived of as a separate "thing", we leave the reality and turn to concept. Nothing actually experienced remains (as is) even for a moment, nor does it have separate existence or essence, nor can it satisfy. But naming "it", thinking of "it", and characterizing "it" turns away from the reality. This is why, I think, the Ch'an/Zen folks don't say "Think about it," but instead say "Look! Look!" With metta, Howard #73894 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sun Jul 1, 2007 6:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) TGrand458@... Hi Scott Conditions arise, change, and cease in accordance with natural forces; and they do so despite whatever "method" of understanding them we apply. The most brilliant formulation of the principles of conditionality I know of is -- "This being, that is. With the arising of this, that arises. This not being, that is not. With the ceasing of this, that ceases." This extremely concise formula explains all conditional behavior ... in brief. The Suttas call conditionality "Dependent Arising" or Dependent Origination." The Abhidhamma calls it "Conditional Relations." I have my own way of calling it which helps me see it... "Inter-Displacing Conditional Relativity." Of the three methods you site below, I only see two methods. The "Noble Truths" method and "Dependent Origination" method are the same as far as I'm concerned. That is, unless you consider each different presentation in the Suttas regarding DO as a different method. Then we'd have to say there are dozens of methods in the Suttas. But I don't consider it as such. The Suttas consistently present one method IMO. The different presentations are simply to suit different efficacious and edifying needs. The 24 Conditional Relations of the Abhidhamma is an attempt to see more details within the same process. It is an attempt at a more scientific understanding of Dhamma. (Sorry Nina and Sarah, its true.) As I understand the 24 Conditional Relations, two of them are overlap so there is really 22. I also have a problem with "Absence Condition" because it breaks the Buddha's principle of "This being, that is, etc." That is, it is not the absence of something that conditions the way things are, it is the remaining "positive" conditions that condition the way things are. It is only a conceptual contrivance which thinks that "the absence" of something conditions states. For example, lets say I lost someone I dearly loved and was feeling suffering due to it. Its actually the present attachment and mental associations that are conditioning the suffering. Not the absence. Anyway, perhaps a picky point but seeing "conditionality" as correctly as possible is of great importance IMO. To get back to your question -- "In what sense do I mean conditions?" When I speak of "conditionality" I mean -- "what is actually occurring." I do not mean -- "a presentation or method espoused in texts." I am not trying to understand texts. I am trying to understand actuality. Of course one may have to do the one, to some extent, to do the other. But the texts are merely "representations." TG In a message dated 6/30/2007 9:33:00 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: "THE THREE METHODS OF TEACHING ON CAUSE AND EFFECT There are three methods of teaching on cause and effect, namely: (1) Noble Truths method, (2) Dependent Origination method and (3) Conditional Relations method. (1) Noble Truths Method Here craving, Origin Truth, is the cause and Suffering Truth is the effect. See K.S. III, p.30: 'He who takes delight, brethren, in body feeling, perception, the activities, consciousness,feeling, perceptio from suffering.' Thus, if there is the cause - the delight in the five aggregates which is craving - Origin Truth, then the effect, Suffering Truth - which consists of all kinds of suffering - will take place. When viewed with the eye of Truth Knowledge (sacca-~naa.plac and Insight Knowledge (vipassanaa-and Insight Knowledge (vipassanaa- three planes of existence are all suffering. The common worldling cannot lay down this burden of suffering, so all kinds of peril and suffering have to be endured. Only when this burden of suffering is completely laid down will there be freedom from all peril and suffering and true happiness truly obtained. See Burden Sutta, K.S. III, p. 24. Again, the Noble Eightfold Path, which consists of Right Understanding and the rest, is Path Truth. This is the cause of release or deliverance, Nibbaana, Cessation Truth, which is the effect. Since there are different kinds of cessation, that which is Cessation Truth needs to be explained. The cessation of craving is due to: (1) its arising on accound of conditions then ceasing. This is known as cessation after arising (uppanna nirodha); (2) its non-arising because the conditions for its arising are absent. This is known as cessation without arising (anuppanna nirodha). Of the latter, there are five types, namely: (i) Cessation by the Opposite (tada"nga nirodha). Craving does not arise at the moment when great faultless consciousness arises; (ii) Cessation by Repression (vikkhambhana-(ii) Cessation by Repression for some time when lofty faultless consciousnesses arise; (iii) Cessation by Destruction (sammucheda-(iii) Cessation by Destr eradicated when Path-consciousness arises; (iv) Cessation by Tranquilisation (pa.tippassaddhi-(iv) Cessation which, after eradication, ceases forever when Fruition-consciousnwhi arises; (v) Cessation by Deliverance (nissara.na-(v) Cessation by Deliveranc The third and fourth types bring about final cessation of craving so that it does not arise again. They are not like the fifth type which is permanent deliverance from craving. This is Nibbaana, Cessation Truth. This explains the Noble Truths method of teaching on cause and effect. (2) Dependent Origination Method Dependent Origination is the teaching about all that happens in one existence. Therefore, it teaches about: (i) the causes for coming into this present existence. These are ignorance and formations of past existences; (ii) the causes for the change to another existence. This is kamma-becoming which brings about birth, decay and death in another existence; (iii) the present existence. These are consciousness, mentality-materialimentality-materiality, six bases, contact, attachment. Just as the taste of the water in the ocean can be known by tasting a drop of water in it, so also, what happens in each and every existence can be known when everything that happens in one existence is known. In this Dependent Origination, the primary cause of the round of rebirths is ignorance. And so the causes and effects are here expounded in this manner: Ignorance is the cause and formation are the effect and so on. (3) Conditional Relations Method In the Conditional Relations method all the states are treated with reference to 24 conditions to show how the causes and their effects are related. Here it is expounded that such-and-such a state, as cause, is related to such-and-such state, as effect, by such-and-such conditioning force. Note. The cause and effect expounded in these three methods of teaching must be considered separately, each in its own way. If they are taken together and any interaction between them is sought there will be doubt and perplexity. This is illustrated by the following examples: (i) Take the case of feeling and craving. In the Noble Truths methods, craving, Origin Truth, is the cause, and feeling, as Suffering Truth, is the effect. But in the Dependent Origination method, feeling is the cause and craving is the effect; (ii) Take the case of visible object and craving. In the Conditional Relations method when there is craving for visible object, visible object, the conditioning state of object condition, is the cause, and craving, the conditioned state, is the effect. But in the Noble Truths method, craving, Origin Truth, is the cause, and visible object, Suffering Truth, is the effect. Thus the three methods of teaching must be understood so as to be clear as to which method is applicable in any particular case of cause and effect." In what sense do you mean 'conditions'I Sincerely, Scott. #73895 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sun Jul 1, 2007 6:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) TGrand458@... Hi Nina I'm sorry, but I didn't understand at all what you meant by the following. You seems to agree with my understanding of the Sutta, then say I fall over sabhava ... which I guess means I can't understand it, then wish to no longer discuss this important point. Oh well. I'm lost. ;-) If you wish to no longer discuss it, that's fine. TG In a message dated 7/1/2007 3:56:03 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi TG, Good, I looked it up in B.B. No substance, no sara, in Pali. Sorry, we cannot work without the Pali. You fall over sabhaava, but let us not discuss this again. Too many repetitions. The sutta word was: no sara, no substance, like a lump of foam. Nina. Op 1-jul-2007, om 3:40 heeft _TGrand458@..._ (mailto:TGrand458@...) het volgende geschreven: > NEW TG: The Buddha is referring to how the 5 aggregates would > appear to him > if inspected, pondered, and investigated carefully. > > Its actually a Sutta perspective. > > Samyutta Nikaya -- Connected Discourses of the Buddha, Page 951 - 952. #73896 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 1, 2007 11:36 am Subject: Conditions, Ch 5, no 5. nilovg Dear friends, As to the fourth class of phenomena to which conascence-condition pertains, citta and its accompanying cetasikas condition the rúpa produced by them by way of conascence-condition. Citta produces rúpa at its arising moment. Each moment of citta can be divided into three extremely short periods (Visuddhimagga XX, 26): the moment of its arising (uppåda kha.na), the moment of presence (ti.t.thi kha.na) and the moment of dissolution (bha"nga kha.na). Citta can only produce rúpa at its arising moment; at the moment of its presence and of its dissolution it is too weak to do so. Sixteen types of citta do not produce rúpa. They are: the patisandhi-citta, the sense-cognitions (the five pairs of seeing, hearing, etc.), the four arúpåvacara vipåkacittas (of immaterial jhåna, arising in the arúpa-brahma-planes where there is no rúpa) and the dying- consciousness, cuti-citta, of the arahat. Apart from these cittas, all the other cittas produce rúpa. Akusala cittas and kusala cittas can, for example, produce bodily intimation (gestures by which we express our intentions) and speech intimation. Akusala cittas and kusala cittas can produce bodily features by which our moods are expressed, such as regret, anger or enjoyment. Dosa can produce frowns and lobha can produce laughter. When we decorate our house, when we dress ourselves or when we use cosmetics, do we realize which types of citta produce rúpas while we move our hands? We may not even realize that lobha-múla-cittas produce rúpas at such moments. We cannot force ourselves to lead the life of a monk, a life without sense-pleasures, but it is beneficial to know the different types of citta which arise. Therefore, it is instructive also for laypeople to read the “Vinaya”. The “Vinaya” is a faithful mirror and a constant reminder of our defilements. We read in the “Vinaya” that it is forbidden to monks to decorate dwellings and objects they use, or to beautify themselves, since that is indulgement in sense-pleasures. The text of the “Vinaya” (Book of Discipline V, Cullavagga, Ch V, 106) states: Now at that time the group of six monks anointed their faces, they rubbed (paste) into their faces, they powdered their faces with chunam, they smeared their faces with red arsenic, they painted their limbs, they painted their faces, they painted their limbs and faces. People spread it about, saying, “Like householders who enjoy pleasures of the senses”.... We then read that the Buddha did not allow it and said that it would be an offence of wrong-doing if monks would do any of those things. The “Book of Analysis”(Vibhaùga, second Book of the Abhidhamma, Ch 17, Analysis of Small Items, § 854) reminds us that it is vanity to decorate objects or one’s body: Therein, what is “personal vanity”? Decoration of the robes, decoration of the alms-bowl, decoration of the abode; the decoration, beautifying, taking pride in, adorning, cupidity, state of cupidity, act of personal vanity, personal vanity for this putrid body and for the external requisites. This is called personal vanity. Laypeople still have conditions for a life with sense-pleasures, but right understanding of the realities which arise can be developed. Also while one adorns oneself there are nåma and rúpa and there can be awareness of them. If we know that there is, in such cases, rúpa conditioned by citta by way of conascence, it can help us to understand nåma and rúpa as conditioned elements. ****** Nina. #73897 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 1, 2007 11:48 am Subject: Listening to the Dhamma, Ch 4, no 4. nilovg Dear friends, Summarizing the stages of mahå-vipassanå, they are: udayabbaya ~naa.na, knowledge of arising and falling away bha.nga ~naa.na, knowledge of dissolution bhaya ~naa.na, knowledge of terror ådínava ~naa.na, knowledge of danger nibbidå ~naa.na, knowledge of dispassion muccitukamyatå ~naa.na, knowledge of desire for deliverance patisankhå ~naa.na, knowledge of reflection sankhårupekkhå ~naa.na, knowledge of equanimity about sankhåra dhammas, conditioned realities anuloma ~naa.na, adaptation knowledge. If insight is not developed this list of terms seems to be theoretical, but these terms indicate stages of paññå which becomes keener and keener and which leads to detachment. The knowledge of dissolution turns more towards the falling away of nåma and rúpa and sees that these cannot be any refuge. At the subsequent stages paññå sees more and more the danger and disadvantages of nåma and rúpa. The knowledge of reflection penetrates more the three general characteristics of impermanence, dukkha and anattå, and the adaptation knowledge arises during the process when enlightenment is attained. This ~naa.na is followed by the gotrabhú ~naa.na, change of lineage knowledge, mahå-kusala citta [1] which has nibbåna as object, and by magga ~naa.na, path knowledge which is lokuttara paññå experiencing nibbåna. The path knowledge is followed by phala ~naa.na, fruition knowledge arising with the phala-cittas, lokuttara vipåkacittas, and this is followed by paccavekkhana ~naa.na, reviewing knowledge. The reviewing knowledge arises with the cittas which consider what has just been attained, the magga-cittas, the phala-cittas, the defilements which have been eradicated, and in the case of non- arahats, the defilements which are still remaining and nibbåna. Vipassanå ~naa.nas are classified in different ways, and sometimes the four last ~naa.nas I just mentioned are added after anuloma ~naa.na, adaptation knowledge. The summing up of all these stages of vipassanå ~naa.na can remind us that the development of paññå is very, very gradual. When the first stage of “tender insight” is reached there is at those moments no self, no world; paññå realizes the difference between the characteristics of nåma and rúpa as they appear one at a time. When those moments have fallen away the usual world appears again. This means that the knowledge gained at that stage of insight has to be applied to all kinds of realities which appear so that there will be conditions for the next stage of insight. Thus, in between the stages of insight paññå must continue to investigate nåma and rúpa. This kind of paññå is called pariññå, or full understanding. ------- 1. mahå-kusala citta is kusala citta of the sense-sphere, it is not lokuttara citta. ********* Nina. #73898 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 1, 2007 12:11 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) nilovg Hi TG, In apost to Jon you said: realities with their own characteristics." --------- N: In Pali: paramattha dhammas with sabhava lakkha.na. I thought that you find that this smacks of substantialism as you and Howard call it. But you are concerned that this is not in agreement with the suttas. You quoted the sutta about the foam, which is beautiful, excellent. Here the Buddha spoke about the khandhas as having no substance, in Pali sara. Excellent. This does not mean that they have no sabhava lakkhana, their own characteristics. I wanted to avoid discussing this again, since it was discussed often in the past. See archives: sabhava lakkhana. I find that discussions tend to be so often about terms. I quote from an old post by Rob K: <[dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Nina, Robert and Michael Thanks Michael, I think I understand the points Kalupahana is trying to make. Is it right that he objects to the word 'sabhava' because this means 'essence'? But he doesn't object to such words as dhamma (or dhatu, element, or ayatana, sense field, or khandha, aggregate,?) Does he object to words such as lakkhana, characteristic? I would like to stress that although sabhava means essence, whne the comemntaries talk about sabhava dhammas they go to lengths to stress that sabhava in such cases never means something unconditioned (except for nibbana). So if we look at for example feeling. This is sabhava dhamma (as against asabhava such as 'soul' which is imaginary). Feeling is impermanent, dukkha and anatta. There are various kinds of feeling when we consider by way of door. So the Visuddhimagga in the section on Paticcasamuppada explains by way of the eye-door: 'beginning with eye-contact is a condition in eight ways as conascence, mutuality, support, result, nutriment association, presence and non- disappaearence conditions, for the five kinds of feelings that have respectively eye sensitivity etc. as their respective basis...' And in the Phena Sutta (A Lump of Foam) which Sarah quoted some time back the commentary by Buddhaghosa says about feeling: ( translated by B.Bodhi:) ***** note 190: "Spk: a bubble (bubbu.la) is feeble and cannot be grasped, for it breaks up as soon as it is seized; so too feeling is feeble and cannot be grasped as permanent and stable. As a bubble arises and ceases in a drop of water and does not last long, so too with feeling: 100,000 `ko.tis' of feelings arise and cease in the time of a fingersnap (one ko.ti = 10 million). As a bubble arises in dependence on conditions, so feeling arises in dependence on a sense base, an object, the defilements, and contact." I include this just to show how much stress is laid on conditionality in the commentaries. There is never any hint that dhammas could exist independent of conditions. RobertK ****** Nina. Op 1-jul-2007, om 19:28 heeft TGrand458@... het volgende geschreven: > You seems to agree with my understanding of the Sutta, then say I > fall over > sabhava ... which I guess means I can't understand it, then wish to > no longer > discuss this important point. Oh well. I'm lost. ;-) If you wish to no > longer discuss it, that's fine. #73899 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 1, 2007 12:28 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 167 and Tiika. nilovg Hi Larry, as is said in the Vis. and Tiika: This shows that there is neither absolute identity nor absolute otherness in a continuous stream of cittas arisen because of conditions. Explained in conventional language: Rohitassa in the life when he met the Buddha was not the same person as Rohitassa in a former life, but it cannot be said that there was no connection with a former life. Since our lives are a continuous stream of cittas, past accumulations condition the present life. We cannot say this as rupa is concerned. There are the four factors that produce rupas of the body. Rupas are not subject to anantara paccaya, contiguity condition. Nina. Op 1-jul-2007, om 16:54 heeft Larry het volgende geschreven: > Someone might say that dependent arising being a matter of "neither > the same nor different" > means that nama and rupa are neither the same nor different. How > would you answer? #73900 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Jul 1, 2007 2:40 pm Subject: Re: Dhammas and Impermanence. kenhowardau Hi TG, ---------- TG to Nina: > We cannot say a table is impermanent eh? The Buddha, in the Suttas, said that things such as "ships" were impermanent, "mountains" were impermanent, "azde handles" were impermanent, "oceans" were impermanent, etc., etc., etc. Guess he had a slightly different motivation for his teachings then perhaps you do? ----------- A long while ago (12 months or more) you and I were talking about taking conventional things as objects of vipassana meditation. I asked how a coffee cup, for example, could be *directly observed* as being impermanent. You said that was a good question and you would have to think about it. So, what is your answer? When you concentrate your attention on a coffee cup, what changes can you see that directly prove (beyond mere intellectual knowing) that it is impermanent? Ken H #73901 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Jul 1, 2007 5:04 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) scottduncan2 Dear TG, Thanks for presenting these views regarding conditionality: TG: "Conditions arise, change, and cease in accordance with natural forces; and they do so despite whatever 'method' of understanding them we apply. The most brilliant formulation of the principles of conditionality I know of is -- 'This being, that is. With the arising of this, that arises. This not being, that is not. With the ceasing of this, that ceases.'...The Suttas call conditionality 'Dependent Arising' or 'Dependent Origination.' The Abhidhamma calls it 'Conditional Relations.' I have my own way of calling it which helps me see it... 'Inter-Displacing Conditional Relativity.'" Scott: SN 12,20(10): "...Iti imasmi.m sati ida.m hoti. Imassuppaadaa ida.m uppajjati. Imasmi.m asati ida.m na hoti. Imassa nirodhaa ida.m nirujjhati." '...This being, that is. With the arising of this, that arises. This not being, that is not. With the ceasing of this, that ceases.' Scott: From the perspective of the neo-commentarial theory known as 'Inter-Displacing Conditional Relativity', how does one define: (i) The 'this' of: 'this being, that is...' (ii) The 'that' of: 'this being, that is.' (iii) The 'this' of: 'this not being...' (iv) The 'that' of: 'that is not.' (v) The 'this' of: 'with the ceasing of this...' (vi) 'Being' and 'not being' (vii) 'Arising' and 'ceasing' (vi) The 'that' of: 'that ceases.' TG: "To get back to your question -- 'In what sense do I mean conditions?' When I speak of 'conditionality' I mean -- "what is actually occurring..." Scott: From the vantage point of the neo-commentarial theory presented above, can these be defined: (i)The 'what' of 'what is actually occurring'; (ii)the 'actually' of 'what is actually occurring'; (iii)and the 'occurring' of 'what is actually occurring'? Sincerely, Scott. #73902 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Jul 1, 2007 5:40 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) scottduncan2 Dear TG, Sorry, after 'vii' comes 'viii'... S. #73903 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Jul 1, 2007 5:47 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 167 and Tiika. lbidd2 Hi Nina, I think you anwered my question. It had to do with this line: "It is emphasized here that with respect to what arises from conditions there is neither absolute identity nor absolute otherness." Someone might interpret this to mean that in any conditional relationship there is neither absolute identity nor absolute otherness between condition and conditioned. Your response was that this applies only to a contiguity relationship and has to do with impermanence (no absolute identity) and accumulations (no absolute otherness). In other words, this doesn't mean that there is no absolute identity nor absolute otherness with respect to own nature. Larry #73904 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Jul 1, 2007 6:45 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) kenhowardau Hi Howard (and Nina), ------------ <. . .> H: > Nina, in a sense there is no table. But in another sense, in terms of a variety of associated mental operations and experiences, there is. --------------- At first you say there is no table, and then you say there *is* a table. But you can't have it both ways, surely. Ultimately, a table can be existent or non-existent; it can't be both. If it could be both then the term "ultimately" would have no meaning. -------------------------- H: > That issue aside, I think that care must be taken in saying that a table is not "impermanent, afflictive, and non-self". The Buddha described many conventional objects in such terms, especially as regards impermanence and dukkha. -------------------------- But he said ultimately ("in brief" "in truth and reality") the five khandhas are impermanent. So, even when he was speaking in conventional terms his audience understood that, ultimately, he was referring to the five khandhas. ------------------------------------ H: > Are there not concepts that are clung to and thereby conditions for suffering? ------------------------------------ There is clinging, but there is never any table that is clung to. In cases where there *seems* to be clinging to table the object of clinging is illusory (pannatti). It is the dhammas that *think* of table that act as conditions. The concept itself does not act as anything. -------------------- H: > Also, denying impermanence, affliction, and non-self to conventional objects must not allow for affirming permanence, satisfactoriness, and self with respect to them. -------------------- That's unlikely to happen, isn't it? It is much more likely to happen as a result of *not* denying them anicca, dukkha, anatta or any other absolute characteristic. -------------------------- H: > The foregoing is one issue, the matter of the importance of concepts and not avoiding application of Dhammic matters to them. But there is another issue to consider as well: Nina, pleasant bodily sensations (for example) as entities, are concepts also. --------------------------- By "entities" I think you mean "paramattha dhammas." You are saying that paramattha dhammas are concepts. If that were so the Abhidhamma would be a farce! ------------------------ H: > What we feel in the body at any time is actual experience, but as soon as it is characterized via speech and conceived of as a separate "thing", we leave the reality and turn to concept. ------------------------ What we feel (tactile rupa) is not experience. 'In the felt there is only the felt.' There is no experience (nama) in the felt (rupa). But I digress: your main point was that the dhamma we experience now does not exist later when we talk about it: ----------------------------- H: > Nothing actually experienced remains (as is) even for a moment, ------------------------------ Now you are extending that to the single moment (or sub-moment) in which we experience a dhamma. Are you saying then that a nama cannot directly experience a characteristic of another nama or rupa? ------------------------------------------- H: > nor does it have separate existence or essence, -------------------------------------------- By your reasoning that may be so, but it is not what we read in the texts. ------------------------------------------- H: > nor can it satisfy. But naming "it", thinking of "it", and characterizing "it" turns away from the reality. This is why, I think, the Ch'an/Zen folks don't say "Think about it," but instead say "Look! Look!" ------------------------------------------- I hope they don't say that. If they do, they are like the self-help gurus I was talking to Phil about. Unrealistic expectations can give gullible devotees a shot of adrenaline, but they will inevitably lead to disappointment, anger and self-recrimination. There can be no sudden "just by looking" enlightenment. Enlightenment develops gradually with repeated listening, considering and right understanding (of conditioned namas and rupas). Ken H #73905 From: connie Date: Sun Jul 1, 2007 7:14 pm Subject: STP, was D73811 Maatikaa translation ;)dmt nichiconn dear scottduncan, it really irritates me when i have to read my own posts. of course this must be STP: "...mindfulness that *there is a body, are feelings, is a mind & is Dhamma (in various) things* is established in him just as far as (is necessary for) a full measure of knowledge and a full measure of mindfulness, and he dwells independent, and without being attached to anything in the world." Scott: Mindfulness only as much as is necessary for pa~n~na to become established. 'A body' - is this ruupa? Feelings, mind - naama? Does this imply some sort of minimum level of sati? connie: yeh, a full measure. see way below <> etc. 'a body'. guess we could read kaayagataasati sutta, mn119. just what is 'breath body'? or maybe we could read STP Vbh. In the sutta section on {the world of} the body mindfulness it's 'contemplation' as in the bag of impurities... the 32 parts without a single mention of my beloved worms. but definitely ruupa. and for all the *establishments*: << “Contemplatingâ€?. Herein, what is contemplation? That which is wisdom, knowing, investigation, deep investigation, investigation of (the nature of) things, discernment, discrimination, differentiation, erudition, skilfulness, subtlety, clarification, thoughtfulness, consideration, breadth, intelligence, guidance, insight, full awareness, examination, wisdom, the Faculty of Wisdom, the Strength of Wisdom, the sword of wisdom, height of wisdom, light of wisdom, lustre of wisdom, flame of wisdom, treasure of wisdom, non-delusion, investigation of (the nature of) things, Right View - this is called “contemplationâ€?. With this contemplation he is endowed, truly endowed, having attained, truly attained, being possessed, truly possessed, furnished (with it). Because of this “contemplatingâ€? is said. >> scott: Sati "has 'not floating away' as characteristic, unforgetfulness as its function, guarding, or the state of facing the object, as its manifestation, firm perception, or application of mindfulness as regards the body, etc., as proximate cause. It should be regarded as a door-post from being firmly established in the object, and as a door-keeper from guarding the door of the senses," (Atthasaalinii, p. 161). Mindfulness arises and establishes an appropriate distance from the object which facilitates pa~n~na. Attachment does not arise at such moments. Perhaps this is 'the island' in the flood. How do you see this? connie: third eye blind. these two log-jammed by all reports. it reminds me of the kaikan, where it's 'congratulations!' whenever there's a personal challenge or loss or such - congratulations on the fracture of your fairy tale - to read that [STP Vbh.] "one endures ill-spoken, unwelcome words and arisen bodily feelings that are painful, racking, sharp, piercing, disagreeable, distressing, and menacing to life" as a Benefit that May be eXpected << when mindfulness of the body has been repeatedly practised, developed, cultivated, used as a vehicle, used as a basis, established, consolidated, and well undertaken, >> but it's all in how you read 'endurance', isn't it? basis... i guess we could squeeze an island in on that ground. what kind of vehicle? avarice and sorrow are things to dry up. dunno... sati sounds almost like the anchor or whatever you find to hang onto the beach. happy canada day. #73906 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Jul 1, 2007 9:45 pm Subject: Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) jonoabb Hi Colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "colette" wrote: > > Good Day Jonothan Abbott, > > WRONG WRONG WRONG! Theory and practice are surely intertwined so > deeply that they can never seperate, thus the two shall meet since it > is unlikely that they can seperate. Do you hear that little voice > whispering in your ear "the same object", "identicle", etc.? Actually I agree with the thrust of what you say here; I think the remark you are saying was WRONG was on a different point. Some folks emphasise 'practice' to the extent that they consider talk about the meaning of the texts to be unnecessary or at the very least a distraction from the main task. > I contend that "personal experience" is the dual nature of "theory" > and I've found through my own study that they both play the roles of > CAUSE and EFFECT at different times. Here we get into the > memorization of texts and their concepts since if the practioner has > them memorized then when they show themselves it is such a great > experience to actually recognize what has been seen. This also goes > to the Mahamudra but that's another story. As I see it, an intellectual understanding of the texts does not necessarily involve memorization of the texts. Furthermore, there can be memorization without a proper understanding of what is being memorized. > colette: here comes a good trip, are you doing magic mushrooms? > > But the intellectual appreciation of the teachings will > > always precede (and support) the realisation of them, surely? > > > colette: NOT A CHANCE IN HELL! Intellectual appreciation is nothing > more than taking this before taking that. I must be missing something, because I thought you started out by acknowledging the importance of intellectual understanding. What exactly is it you are saying has 'not a chance in hell'? > How dare you suggest that there is some man-made machine and assembly > line that must first be pacified and gratified before there is any > realization of rigpa? Was I suggesting that? ;-)) Jon #73907 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Jul 1, 2007 9:50 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) jonoabb Hi Scott --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Dear Jon, > > Thanks for your reply: > > "adhi.t.thaanaabhinivesaanusayaa" (adhi.t.thaana + abhinivesa + > anusayaa). > > J: "My (uninformed) guess, going on the PED entry and the general > context in the sutta, would be that it refers to wrong view." > > Scott: That would seem to be the case. > > J: "Any thoughts yourself?" > > Scott: No, just a question as to the implication of the use of the > specific compound 'adhi.t.haanaabhinivesaanusayaa' rather than the > general term 'michaa di.t.thi'. Sorry, but I have no thoughts on this question as yet. I need to spend some more time on the other comments (Sarah's, Nina's) to get a better grasp of the issue. Will get back to you later if any thoughts occur. Jon #73908 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Jul 1, 2007 10:00 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: What is the wrong view? (References from the MN anthology) jonoabb Hi Larry (and Sarah) I agree very much with your conclusion here, Larry: being on the right path is a momentary thing. Absolutely must be kusala but, as you say, also must be capable of arising in one who still has kilesa. This fits neatly with the reading of the path factors as being the factors that are present at a path-moment, rather than a description of a 'practice' to be undertaken. As a form of 'practice' there would inevitably be a lot of akusala involved. Jon --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@... wrote: > > Hi Sarah, > > I'm not sure, but I think Phil's question was something like, "are all > wrong views included in the wrong view of the eightfold path, or just > the ones listed in MN 117, for example,?" In other words, can one > practice the eightfold path with self view? > > I am inclined to say no, one cannot practice the eightfold path with > self view. It seems to me that, generally speaking, mundane right view > is basically confidence or faith (saddhaa) in the Buddha, dhamma and > sangha. According to abhidhamma this only arises as kusala cetasika. > Therefore, no self view. One might say that the eightfold path is > exclusively kusala citta. So no self view. > > However, that is not to say that self view must be eradicated in order > to follow it. So there is some back and forth between kusala and > akusala, being on the right path and being on the wrong path. > > Larry #73909 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sun Jul 1, 2007 6:01 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) TGrand458@... In a message dated 7/1/2007 6:05:20 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: Scott: From the vantage point of the neo-commentarial theory presented above, can these be defined: (i)The 'what' of 'what is actually occurring'; (ii)the 'actually' of 'what is actually occurring'; (iii)and the 'occurring' of 'what is actually occurring'? Sincerely, Scott. .............................................. Hi Scott Phenomena are actually arising, changing, and ceasing in accordance to causal forces. "Their" interaction is what generates conditional dynamics and instigates impermanence. Conditionality and impermanence are forged by the same process. Here are some supporting quotes -- “…just as heat is generated and fire is produced from the conjunction and friction of two fire-sticks, but when the sticks are separated and laid aside the resultant heat ceases and subsides; so too, these three feelings [pleasant, painful, neutral] are born of contact, rooted in contact, with contact as their source and condition. In dependence on the appropriate contacts the corresponding feelings arise; with the cessation of the appropriate contacts the corresponding feelings cease.â€? (The Buddha . . . CDB, vol. 2, pg. 1270) “ . . . each feeling arises in dependence upon its corresponding condition, and with the cessation of its corresponding condition, the feeling ceases.â€? (Ven. Nandaka instructing nuns at the request of the Buddha . . . MLDB, pg. 1122, Advice from Nandaka, Nandakovada Sutta, #146) “By reason of a cause it came to be By rupture of a cause it dies awayâ€? (Ven. Sela . . . KS, vol. 1, pg. 169) “Thus, monks, one state just causes another state to swell, one state just causes the fulfillment of another state…â€? (The Buddha . . . GS, vol. 5, pg. 4) The above quotes demonstrate conditional displacement (arising and dissolution) due to a cause. This principle can be applied to all conditioned phenomena at all times. In the following four extracts, the Buddha points to contacting states or frictional states as a cause of impermanence… “Imposthume, brethren, is a term for body, of the four elements compounded, of parents sprung, on rice and gruel fed, impermanent, of a nature to be worn away, pounded away, broken and scattered.â€? (The Buddha . . . Book of the Kindred Sayings (KS), (Samyutta Nikaya), vol. 4, pg. 50) The descriptions above: -- “worn,â€? “pounded,â€? “broken,â€? and “scatteredâ€? clearly indicate alteration due to contacting or interacting forces. “When, Bhikkhus (Buddhist monks), a carpenter or carpenter’s apprentice looks at the handle of his adze, he sees the impressions of his fingers and his thumb, but he does not know: ‘So much of the adze handle has been worn away today, so much yesterday, so much earlier.’ But when it has worn away, the knowledge occurs to him that it has worn away.â€? (The Buddha . . . The Connected Discourses of the Buddha (CDB), (Samyutta Nikaya), vol. 1, pg. 960 – 961) And, after being asked if he could describe the time period of an aeon, the Buddha said: – “Suppose, brother, there were a great crag, a hill one yogana wide (about 7-8 miles), one yogana across, one yogana high without chasms or clefts, a solid mass. And a man at the end of every hundred years were to stroke it once each time with a kasi cloth. Well, that mountain in this way would sooner be done away with and ended than an aeon.â€? (The Buddha . . . KS, vol. 2, pg. 121-122) “…suppose there were a seafaring ship bound with rigging that had worn out in the water for six months. It would be hauled up on dry land during the cold season and its rigging would further be attacked by wind and sun. Inundated by rain from a rain cloud, the rigging would easily collapse and rot away.â€? (The Buddha . . . CDB, vol. 2, pg. 1557) These passages indicate wearing away due to contact/friction: common sense knowledge at this level. The following passages also indicate a corresponding relationship between conditionality and impermanence: “…conditioned states are impermanent, they are unstable…â€? (The Buddha . . . Long Discourses of the Buddha (LDB), (Digha Nikaya), pg. 290, A King’s Renunciation, Mahasudassana Sutta, #17) “…whatever is born, become, compounded (conditioned), is subject to decay – it cannot be that it does not decay.â€? (The Buddha . . . LDB, pg. 272, The Buddha’s Last Days, Mahaparinibbana Sutta, #16) “…all compound things are impermanent…â€? (The Buddha . . . LDB, pg. 263, The Buddha’s Last Days, Mahaparinibbana Sutta, #16) “Monks, whether there be an appearance or non-appearance of a Tathagata (Buddha), this causal law of nature, this orderly fixing of things prevails, all phenomena are impermanent.â€? (The Buddha . . . Book of the Gradual Sayings (GS), (Anguttara Nikaya), vol. 1, pg. 264-265) The above passage states that -- it is a causal law of nature that all phenomena are impermanent. This explicitly states that impermanence is part of causal law. The quote below overtly reiterates this… “Whatever is knowledge of the law of cause, that is also knowledge of that which is by nature perishable, transient, fading away, and tending to cease.â€? (The Buddha . . . KS, vol. 2, pg. 121-122) “Pleasant feelings are impermanent, conditioned, dependently arisen, bound to decay, to vanish, to fade away, to cease – and so too are painful feeling and neutral feeling.â€? (The Buddha . . . LDB, pg. 227, The Great Discourse on Origination, Mahanidana, #15) “…whatever is conditioned and volitionally produced is impermanent, subject to cessation.â€? (Attributed to the Buddha by his chief attendant Ven. Ananda . . . The Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha, (MLDB), (Majjhima Nikaya), pg. 455, The Man from Atthakanagara, Atthakanagara Sutta, #52) “All that is subject to arising is subject to cessation.â€? (The Buddha . . . MLDB, pg. 605 – 606, To Dighanakha, Dighanakha Sutta, #74) “…all conditioned things are of a nature to decay – strive on untiringly.â€? _2_ (#_edn1) (The Buddha . . . LDB, pg. 270, The Buddha’s Last Days, Mahaparinibbana Sutta, #16) ____________________________________ Consider this well and let's discuss it. Then I will go further in explaining the "This" of This being, etc. But I won't waste my time if its just going to be ignored. TG #73910 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Jul 1, 2007 10:14 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sammaadi.t.thi study corner jonoabb Hi Nina (and Scott) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Scott, > Co. to the expression 'With the arising of feeling there is the > arising of craving'. > > <'Feeling', resultant feeling [vipaaka] is meant. How does it become > condition for craving at the six doors? By reason of its fitness to > be enjoyed. For, through the enjoyment of pleasurable feeling living > beings who love that feeling produce craving for it, become > passionate with lust for that feeling, and wish only for a pleasant > object at the door of the eye. And having obtained it they enjoy it. > They do honour to craftsmen and the like who provide pleasant > objects. Similarly they wish for pleasant sounds and so forth. They > get and enjoy those sounds and so on. They pay respect to those who > provide pleasant objects: lute-players, perfumers, cooks, weavers, > instructors of various arts and so on...> Thanks very much for posting this passage from the commentary, which I don't recall having seen before. By coincidence, I was thinking of this topic only the other day. It occurred to me that when we have a strong interest in or admiration of someone because of qualities that are purely worldly ones (e.g. an artist, musician, athlete, social commentator, etc), there is probably an element of wrong view at play. (Just after that I saw a Larry King interview with Paul McCartney, Ringo Starr, Yoko Ono and George Harrison's widow (and the founder of Cirque du Soleil) and I was reminded of this again.) > N: These are good reminders of the second noble truth: always > searching for pleasant things to be enjoyed by oneself. We should > consider the second noble Truth pertaining to this moment. > We applaud good musicians, we praise a skilled cook when in a > restaurant. Yes, sometimes it may be just a matter of lobha on our part, but at other times there is a kind of awe at their achievements, and that I think is when wrong view is likely to be invovled. Jon #73911 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Jul 1, 2007 10:22 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) jonoabb Hi TG (and Scott) I would say that when the Buddha lists the things set out in Scott's list from MN 112 he is saying that, in truth and reality, (a) that what we take for the world is nothing more than these things and (b) these things are annicca, dukkha and anatta. I think both these aspects need to be directly realised in order for the path to be developed, and that realisation of the characteristics at (b) cannot precede that of the matter at (a). In other words, we cannot come to the realisation at (b) by thinking about the impermanence of things as presently understood by us. Jon --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@... wrote: > > Hi Scott > > You guys have it any way you like it. If you want to ADD a "paramattha > dhammas" view into/onto the Suttas that have no such teaching, go right ahead. > > When the Buddha lists the things you call "paramattha dhammas" and says they > need to be seen ... he does not say they need to be seen as "paramattha > dhammas." What he DOES SAY is that they need to be seen as IMPERMANENT, > AFFLICTING, AND NONSELF. > > If that's a "polemical statement," so be it. A little honesty is all I ask. > > > TG #73912 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sun Jul 1, 2007 6:38 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) TGrand458@... In a message dated 7/1/2007 11:22:40 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: Hi TG (and Scott) I would say that when the Buddha lists the things set out in Scott's list from MN 112 he is saying that, in truth and reality, (a) that what we take for the world is nothing more than these things and (b) these things are annicca, dukkha and anatta. I think both these aspects need to be directly realised in order for the path to be developed, and that realisation of the characteristics at (b) cannot precede that of the matter at (a). In other words, we cannot come to the realisation at (b) by thinking about the impermanence of things as presently understood by us. Jon ...................................... Hi Jon Well, I doubt we can ever know "present reality perfectly in all respects and in perfect detail." So just when should we start to let go? TG #73913 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Jul 1, 2007 10:42 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) jonoabb Hi TG (and Scott) To get to the nitty gritty... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@... wrote: > > Hi Scott ... > Scott: Secondly, yeah, disengaging from a label ("paramattha > dhammas"), the view expressed above acknowledges the existence of > these things listed. I read the view quoted above as accepting these > things and as acknowledging their characteristics. Of course these > things can be seen according to these characteristics because they > have these characteristics. > ................................................ > > NEW TG: "They" don't have these characteristics. The qualities arise as > they do due to "other" conditions. These "other" conditions also do not have > "their own" qualities because "they" are conditioned...etc., etc., etc. > > But, if we want to be less accurate and simplify, then I would accept that > elements have certain qualities. But these qualities are certainly not "their > own" nor are they "ultimate realities". > > The difference being that one view is highly inclusive of conditionality > principles and highlights them as insight fodder. The other view sees things as > separate entities...even if unwittingly. ... what do you see as being the significance of this difference in terms of the development of insight? Jon #73914 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Jul 1, 2007 10:46 pm Subject: Re: From unconsciousness to consciousness jonoabb Hi Ren Not sure if you're addressing this to me or not, but here goes anyway... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Rendal Mercer wrote: > > The invisible supports the visible, like all things > there are things that are obvious with little or no > investigation needed. Other things, whether seen or > unseen, expereinced or never to be witnessed, all > parts, all peices are still engaged with it's whole. > That "whole" neither exists nor is non-existant. Like: > Quanta, Nuclear, Atomic, Cellular, Molecular, > Systematic, Beings. What is seen is only the obvious, > the rest of it we place names like citta and cetasika > but really al is already dissolved and re-projected on > our minds like day is to night. So what is your idea of the development of insight, as taught by the Buddha? > Good luck in your journey. You too, my friend. Jon #73915 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Jul 1, 2007 10:44 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What is the wrong view? (References from the MN anthology) lbidd2 Hi Jon, J: "I agree very much with your conclusion here, Larry: being on the right path is a momentary thing. Absolutely must be kusala but, as you say, also must be capable of arising in one who still has kilesa. This fits neatly with the reading of the path factors as being the factors that are present at a path-moment, rather than a description of a 'practice' to be undertaken. As a form of 'practice' there would inevitably be a lot of akusala involved." L: I would say there is a lot of akusala all the time but in right practice there are moments of kusala. I think the point I was going for is that in mundane right view there isn't really insight, but there could be faith and the other 18 beautiful universals as well as the abstinences and illimitables. Larry #73916 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Jul 1, 2007 11:00 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: What is the wrong view? (References from the MN anthology) jonoabb Hi Larry --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@... wrote: > > Hi Jon, ... > L: I would say there is a lot of akusala all the time but in right > practice there are moments of kusala. Agreed. Only kusala moments can be moments of right practice. > I think the point I was going for is that in mundane right view there > isn't really insight, but there could be faith and the other 18 > beautiful universals as well as the abstinences and illimitables. I think right view/panna is what distinguishes mundane insight from other forms of kusala. So moments of mundane insight are moments of right view and the other path factors arising together, except that only 1 of the abstinences may arise at a time (or none of the abstinences may arise, depending on the circumstances). Jon #73917 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sun Jul 1, 2007 7:17 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) TGrand458@... In a message dated 7/1/2007 11:45:08 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: > The difference being that one view is highly inclusive of conditionality > principles and highlights them as insight fodder. The other view sees things as > separate entities...even if unwittingly. ... what do you see as being the significance of this difference in terms of the development of insight? Jon ..................................... Hi Jon I think it is far easier to "turn mentality away" from "void, hollow, insubstantial, resultant happenings" than a "ultimate reality with its own characteristic." Its a matter of what works best for the mind to detach. That's the significance in developing insight. Conditionality entails that nothing has "its own" characteristic. Insight uses awareness of experiences in conjunction with the principles of conditionality to realize that such experiences are void, hollow, and insubstantial and to detach from and escape experiences. TG #73918 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 12:07 am Subject: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) scottduncan2 Dear TG, TG: "Consider this well and let's discuss it. Then I will go further in explaining the "This" of This being, etc. But I won't waste my time if its just going to be ignored." Scott: Too late for being ignored, TG. I was tempted but, as you can see, I thought I'd give you a chance to explain the view. Answer well the questions. Sincerely, Scott. #73919 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 1:11 am Subject: concepts. was: dhammas and impermanence. nilovg Hi Howard, I hope you have a nice stay with your family, and that Sophie is well. I planned a letter to you, thinking things over when we were away, because after our disagreement, someone on the Pali list asked me to compare sutta and abhidhamma. This is for later, when time allows. Now your post: -------- H: I think that care must be taken in saying that a table is not "impermanent, afflictive, and non-self". The Buddha described many conventional objects in such terms, especially as regards impermanence and dukkha. Are there not concepts that are clung to and thereby conditions for suffering? ------- N: right, we also cling to concepts, such as persons, and this causes sorrow. The Buddha went to the deepest roots of clinging: he always pointed to the nama and rupa that appear at this moment. He used examples such as a chariot that wears out to bring us back to the reality appearing now. You know, everybody can say that a chariot wears out, that it does not last, but that is only thinking and this does not change our life. What is special about the Buddha's teaching: what is impermanent is not self. There is no control over nama and rupa, because they fall away within splitseconds. The nama and rupa that arise do so because there were the right conditions for their arising. What arises has to fall away. I know that this is not the issue for you. I just want to point out the difference between the Buddha's teaching and other teachings which also taught impermanence. I agree that concepts can remind us, but it is not sufficient. Let us go to the essence of the Dhamma. ------- H: ....The foregoing is one issue, the matter of the importance of concepts and not avoiding application of Dhammic matters to them. ------ N: Let us be concrete: there is no Lodewijk. I may tell myself a hundred times that what I take for Lodewijk are nama and rupa that are impermanent, but there is still clinging. Thinking about impermanence cannot cure me. Never. Only awareness and direct understanding of the present reality can help to cope with troubles and tribulations. Also, only the anagami has eradicated clinging to sense objects. First the wrong view of self has to go. By understanding nama and rupa as they are. ---------- H: But there is another issue to consider as well: Nina, pleasant bodily sensations (for example) as entities, are concepts also. What we feel in the body at any time is actual experience, but as soon as it is characterized via speech and conceived of as a separate "thing", we leave the reality and turn to concept. -------- N: But gradually we can learn to be mindful of feeling or any other reality without naming it, thinking about it. Then there are no entities, there is no holding on. -------- H: Nothing actually experienced remains (as is) even for a moment, nor does it have separate existence or essence, nor can it satisfy. But naming "it", thinking of "it", and characterizing "it" turns away from the reality. This is why, I think, the Ch'an/Zen folks don't say "Think about it," but instead say "Look! Look!" --------- N: 'Look' does not clarify very much. Shall we say: understand it. It is understanding that has to be developed. This leads to letting go, to detachment. Nina. #73920 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 1:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 167 and Tiika. nilovg Hi Larry, instead of own nature (people will yell at you), I would say: with respect to the rebirthconsciousness that succeeds the dyingconsciousness. Then we have it safe. Nina. Op 2-jul-2007, om 2:47 heeft LBIDD@... het volgende geschreven: > In other words, this doesn't mean that there is > no absolute identity nor absolute otherness with respect to own > nature. #73921 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 1:55 am Subject: Sammaadi.t.thi studycorner. nilovg Hi Larry, -------- L: I couldn't find Scott's explanation, but I took a look at Vism.XVII,231. Does this mean that the pleasant or unpleasant feeling associated with hearing, smelling, tasting, and seeing is the feeling that arises with the receiving, investigating, and registration consciousnesses in the 5-door process? ------ N: Seeing etc. are always accompanied by indifferent feeling. So is receiving, sampaticchanacitta. As to investigating, santiira.nacitta, if the object is extraordinarily pleasant it is accompanied by pleasant feeling, but if not, by indifferent feeling. As to registrating, tadaarammanacitta, this is more variable, since it is also dependent on the feeling accompanying the javanacittas preceding it. ------- L: Is the feeling that arises with these three kinds of consciousness always the same? ----- N: see above. -------- L: In the case of touching consciousness is the feeling associated with it always the same as the feeling that arises with body door receiving, investigating, and registration? ------ N: No. As to the vipaakacittas which are the sense-cognitions, only body-consciousness is accompanied by either pleasant bodily feeling or painful bodily feeling. As to the other vipaakacittas in that sense-door process, the feelings are the same as stated above. Do you have a purpose in mind by asking this question? Perhaps the fact that it is vipaaka feeling that conditions craving? It is not so easy to understand. Nina. #73922 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sun Jul 1, 2007 10:05 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) TGrand458@... In a message dated 7/2/2007 1:10:18 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: Dear TG, TG: "Consider this well and let's discuss it. Then I will go further in explaining the "This" of This being, etc. But I won't waste my time if its just going to be ignored." Scott: Too late for being ignored, TG. I was tempted but, as you can see, I thought I'd give you a chance to explain the view. Answer well the questions. Sincerely, Scott. ........................................... Dear Scott The view is explained, whether you recognize it or not. TG #73923 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 2:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What is the wrong view? (References from the MN anthology) nilovg Hi Larry, In order to become lokuttara pa~n~naa, there must be first mundane right view, insight to be developed in stages. Nina. Op 2-jul-2007, om 7:44 heeft LBIDD@... het volgende geschreven: > I think the point I was going for is that in mundane right view there > isn't really insight, but there could be faith and the other 18 > beautiful universals as well as the abstinences and illimitables. #73924 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 2:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) nilovg Hi TG, I just like to explain a little more on absence condition. It is different from what you think of as absence in conventional sense. It has a very precise meaning: Nina. Op 1-jul-2007, om 19:01 heeft TGrand458@... het volgende geschreven: > As I understand the 24 Conditional Relations, two of them are > overlap so > there is really 22. I also have a problem with "Absence Condition" > because it > breaks the Buddha's principle of "This being, that is, etc." That > is, it is > not the absence of something that conditions the way things are, it > is the > remaining "positive" conditions that condition the way things are. > It is only a > conceptual contrivance which thinks that "the absence" of something > conditions states. For example, lets say I lost someone I dearly > loved and was > feeling suffering due to it. Its actually the present attachment > and mental > associations that are conditioning the suffering. Not the absence. > Anyway, > perhaps a picky point but seeing "conditionality" as correctly as > possible is of > great importance IMO. #73925 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 3:45 am Subject: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) jonoabb Hi TG --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@... wrote: > > > In a message dated 7/1/2007 11:22:40 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, > jonabbott@... writes: > > Hi TG (and Scott) > > I would say that when the Buddha lists the things set out in Scott's list > from MN 112 he is > saying that, in truth and reality, (a) that what we take for the world is > nothing more than > these things and (b) these things are annicca, dukkha and anatta. > > I think both these aspects need to be directly realised in order for the > path to be > developed, and that realisation of the characteristics at (b) cannot precede > that of the > matter at (a). In other words, we cannot come to the realisation at (b) by > thinking about > the impermanence of things as presently understood by us. > > Jon > ...................................... > > Hi Jon > > Well, I doubt we can ever know "present reality perfectly in all respects > and in perfect detail." So just when should we start to let go? I don't remember saying anything about knowing "present reality perfectly in all respects and in perfect detail." It doesn't sound like me ;-)) As regards your question, "just when should we start to let go?", I'm not sure where you're coming from here, either. To my understanding, the development of insight begins with the arising of awareness that is aware of a presently arising dhamma as it is, for example, of visible object as just visible object, a rupa. How does that sound to you? Jon #73926 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 3:49 am Subject: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) jonoabb Hi TG --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@... wrote: > > > In a message dated 7/1/2007 11:45:08 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, > jonabbott@... writes: > > > The difference being that one view is highly inclusive of conditionality > > principles and highlights them as insight fodder. The other view sees > things as > > separate entities...even if unwittingly. > > ... what do you see as being the significance of this difference in terms of > the > development of insight? > > Jon > > > > ..................................... > > Hi Jon > > I think it is far easier to "turn mentality away" from "void, hollow, > insubstantial, resultant happenings" than a "ultimate reality with its own > characteristic." Its a matter of what works best for the mind to detach. That's the > significance in developing insight. This is a somewhat puzzling answer, TG. Of course, dhammas are what they are (whichever one of those 2 options, or neither but something else). However, my question was what difference it made in terms of the practice as to which of those 2 options one thought it to be. From your answer I would have to conclude, no difference. Would that be correct? > Conditionality entails that nothing has "its own" characteristic. Insight > uses awareness of experiences in conjunction with the principles of > conditionality to realize that such experiences are void, hollow, and insubstantial and > to detach from and escape experiences. Again, my question is what difference it makes, in terms of the development of insight, whether one considers dhammas to have their "own" characteristics or not? Jon #73927 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 4:13 am Subject: e-card from Bangkok sarahprocter... Dear Friends, On Saturday, we pretty well went straight from the airport to the regular discussion at the Foundation. Apart from the 'regulars', Azita is also visiting. [pls ignore typos and spellings.....away from all my 'props'!) The topics I can remember randomly ordered as they come to mind are: sila - in a wider sense to include or deeds and speech, inc. akusala sila - as precepts, abstaining (when we understand citta and cetasika, no need to be taught to do this and that, but when satipatthana is not developed, the Buddha set rules for monks only. For lay people only 5 rules, according to general ethics or sila.) sila - as good deeds, as undertaking adhi sila - restraint of the senses - satipatthana development with wisdom Sila as depending on the citta - we can't tell from the appearance. 'Don't is sila, Do is sila!!' .... Lobha all the time, whilst wishing of an alcoholic drink or a glass of water. Trying to put things in 'categories' such as precepts rather than understanding the lobha .... Bhava tanha - 2 meanings a) clinging to being, to seeing, to hearing,kama-bhava tanha b) sassata-ditthi - clinging with wrong view to the idea of a permanent being. [abhava tanha must be ucchedha ditthi(annihilation belief)with wrong view] .... Searching for dukkha. We have now what we searched for before, all we wanted! .... Wishing others well - with self! As long as there's 'I',there's 'we' and 'the other', not no one at all. .... Sati remembering and sati conditioned by (thira)sanna. Recollecting a sutta we read years ago as condition for sati now....or from a previous life....'life' is just a term, after all!. Depends on what bhumi one is born in as to what one recalls.. .... Understanding the ceasing of phenomena - 2 ways by und. momentary arising and falling away and also by und. conditions? (Vism#72706). Rather than say two ways, better to see it's pointing to the deeper knowledge, deeper understanding which develops - und. conditions and und. arising and falling away. Understanding has to grow stronger/deeper so it eliminates attachment to nimitta and anubyanjanna. .... Sabba in Sabba Sutta - what is included is according to the individual's panna. .... Following up on pa.tipatti & vipassana. Not the same at all! Vipassana can only refer to vipassana nanas. .... Understanding of horror - the sutta Robert A, Ken H and others discussed, as referring to the dukkha aspect of dhammas and the arising and falling away of them. (See #71361 & #71366 for ref.) .... Respect & dana - giving with respect, whether new or 'discarded' items! Gratitude, paying respect, und. of vipaka (#68448) .... Khandha - the meaning of each dhamma is different, hence it is khandha, whether slight or gross etc. There's always a new one, a different one all the time. Khandha as that which arises and falls away, never the same, never to come back. .... Dogs - latent tendency of sakkaya ditthi.... .... Thinking about kusala and akusala as opposed to being aware of them. We will not get anything from this world, because they are only stories! .... Reciting Pali - any use? .... ****** Let me know if there's anything anyone would like me to elaborate on. Sukin or Azita, feel free to add anything else that comes to mind or anything from your other discussions. Two rest days (for us).....another discussion tomorrow afternoon. I believe Ven Pannabahulo will also be visiting for it. Metta, Sarah ========= #73928 From: connie Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 4:48 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (61) nichiconn dear friends, 8. A.t.thakanipaato 1. Siisuupacaalaatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa part 4 txt: Ta.m sutvaa therii- "ti.t.thatu, maara, tayaa vuttakaamaloko. A~n~nopi sabbo loko raagaggi-aadiihi aaditto sampajjalito. Na tattha vi~n~nuuna.m citta.m ramatii"ti kaamato ca lokato ca attano vinivattitamaanasata.m dassetvaa maara.m tajjentii- 198. Yaamaa ca"taavati.msaa ca yaamaa ca, tusitaa caapi devataa; nimmaanaratino devaa, ye devaa vasavattino. 199. "Kaala.m kaala.m bhavaa bhava.m, sakkaayasmi.m purakkhataa; aviitivattaa sakkaaya.m, jaatimara.nasaarino. 200. "Sabbo aadiipito loko, sabbo loko padiipito; sabbo pajjalito loko, sabbo loko pakampito. 201. "Akampiya.m atuliya.m, aputhujjanasevita.m; buddho dhammamadesesi, tattha me nirato mano. 202. "Tassaaha.m vacana.m sutvaa, vihari.m saasane rataa; tisso vijjaa anuppattaa, kata.m buddhassa saasana.m. 203. "Sabbattha vihataa nandii, tamokkhandho padaalito; eva.m jaanaahi paapima, nihato tvamasi antakaa"ti.- Imaa gaathaa abhaasi. Pruitt: Hearing this, the therii said, "Enough of speaking about his world of sensual pleasure, Maara! For every other world is ablaze, burning with the fires of passion, etc, and for the intelligent, their mind does not delight in that." Then she frightened Maara, showing him the fact that her own mind had turned away from sensual pleasure and from the world. And she spoke these verses: 198-199. The Taavati.msa and the Yaama and Tusita devataas, the Nimmaanarati devas and the Vassavatti devas, again and again, from existence to existence, [are] exposed to individuality, not passing beyond individuality, going to birth and death. 200. The whole world is ablaze. The whole world has flared up. The whole world is blazing. The whole world is shaken. 201. The Buddha taught me the Doctrine, unshakable, incomparable, not cultivated by ordinary people. My mind was deeply attached to it. 202. I heard his utterance and dwelt delighting in his teaching. I have obtained the three knowledges. I have done the Buddha's teaching. 203. Everywhere the enjoyment of pleasure is defeated. The mass of darkness [of ignorance] is torn asunder. In this way, know, evil one, you are defeated, death.* *Verses 202, 203 = vv. 187, 188. {Caalaa, Sisters 59} RD: When the Therii heard, she said: 'Stop, Maara! the Kaamaloka of which you talk is, even as is the whole of the world, burning and blazing with the fires of lust, hate, and ignorance. 'Tis not there the discerning mind can find any charm.' And showing Maara how her mind was turned away from the world and from desires of sense, she upbraided him thus: Ay, think upon *302 the Three-and-Thirty gods, And on the gods who rule in realm of Shades; On those who reign in heaven of Bliss, and on Those higher deities who live where life Yet flows by way of sense and of desire. (198) Consider how time after time they go From birth to death, and death to birth again, Becoming this and then becoming that, Ever beset by the recurring doom Of hapless individuality, Whence comes no merciful enfranchisement. (199) On fire is all the world, is all in flames! Ablaze is all the world, the heav'ns do quake! *303 (200) But that which quaketh not, that ever sure, That priceless thing, unheeded by the world, Even the Norm - that hath the Buddha taught To me, therein my mind delighted dwells. (201) And I who heard his blessed word abide Fain only and alway to do his will. The Threefold Wisdom have I gotten now, And done the bidding of the Buddha blest. (202) On every hand the love of sense is slain And the thick gloom of ignorance is rent In twain. Know this, O Evil One, avaunt! Here, O Destroyer, shalt thou not prevail! (203) *302 'Think upon' is the translator's interpolation. *303 Quoted from the Samyutta-Niikaaya, i. 31, 133. ===tbc, connie. #73929 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 5:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Death - just like now! (Alan Driver's funeral) [5] sarahprocter... Dear Ramesh (& Nina), Thank you for all your great further elaborations and also appreciation of this extract, Ramesh! --- Ramesh Patil wrote: > Dear Nina, Sarah & all, > "After viewing the ashes... > S: We feel that at least he understood quite a lot of dhamma and we > helped > him in many ways, so no bad feeling, so that makes it much easier. > KS Yes,we can see it's useless to be sad. Even if one cannot help for > some > [time], but anyway, when right understanding arises, one should know the > difference between akusala and kusala. The Buddha told us about the > uselessness of having akusala. We should follow his teaching. Right > understanding saves one's life..." > * > ********************************************************************************\ ******************** > * > R:Definitely,right understanding saves ones life, as through right > understanding > one should know the difference between akusala and kusala.From bhuddha's > teaching > everyone come to know how usefull are the kusala kamma and how much they > benefit us. > We should follow his teaching. Right understanding only saves ours > life!! > Really Great!! > * ... S: This is how I feel too! ... <..> > KS: Because of the shortness of life. Because [if] it's only in the book > that you think that life is short, but when it's not in the book it > reminds better.. No worry! (laughing) > S: Isn't it then out of fear because you suddenly realize life is short, > so we remember kusala? > KS: Because people keep thinking of kusala deeds, keep thinking, no > action > yet. But when life is as short as this, one should put it in action." > * > ********************************************************************************\ ******************** > * > R:- "life is as short as this, one should put it in action"whatever said > is > true > SO we try hard to put kusala deeds into action..I think contemplation on > death brings > real awareness to put kusala deeds into action..If anyone read the above > discussion as > "*Alan in the coffin and now that we can see the remains of his bones*" > definitely that person > will become aware of realities and truth and sure he will come out of > his > own world..really > a great discussion...to bring awareness of reality..and helpfull to > everyone .... S: Thx, Ramesh. It's great you get so much out of them. It may be a while before I'm able to continue with the series. Metta, Sarah p.s Nina, I'm sorry that you and Lodewijk were 'shocked' by the reference to KS's laughing or 'laughter. Of course, it's not my intention to upset you at all and it may have been better left out. I apologise for any lack of delicacy. I'm just trying to be as accurate as possible and her good-humour, light and joyous tone (and that of others, as is very common at Thai funerals) was very much part of the atmosphere and discussions and in such contrast to the seriousness and sombre tones we usually find at Western funerals (and the mood in which we arrived). Of course, it's not a frivolous laughter, but I know you both sometimes find her laughter disturbing in the discussions at the Foundation too, as you mentioned before. Different accumulations. Sometime I asked her why she always laughs when she talks about 'how bad dhammas are' and she replied by saying: 'it's by conditions. What would you prefer? That I cry as I talk about the impermanence of dhammas?' (laughing again!). It always makes me smile. I heard her say on an old tape today (to me): "Don't disturb yourself by thinking about concepts and stories. When there's understanding (of paramattha dhammas), there's no disturbance at all." I find this all so helpful as I indicated in the 'seriousness' vs 'sacca' extract. Any situation, any time, there are just dhammas, 'just like now'! Metta, Sarah =========== #73930 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 5:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: flashbacks and guilt sarahprocter... Dear Scott, --- Scott Duncan wrote: > S: "And as the cittas you called Andy roll on, as KS suggested at > Alan's funeral, they may be smiling as we grieve...." > > Scott: This depends, I think. Is there rememberance of a past which > extends beyond the realm in which a particular 'flux' has arisen? Is > it a 'happy realm'? ... S: Connie or others might help out here. From memory, all those in the Vimana devas(in Mansions)recall their previous life (usually human). I think in the Peta stories, the petas recall their previous human births too... I think the comment about 'smiling' (and as I reported it), was not necessarily with any remembering. Like for us now! ... > I wonder if such a statement, not to be a wet blanket, might be read > to indicate that the difference between one existence which ends and > another which begins is as diverse as the difference between joy and > grief. If there is joy, it may not be connected to a past, unless > thinking about a past is occuring. I think that consciousness in some > realms does include awareness of 'beings' co-existing in other realms, > and this can also includes remembrance of past connections. This > would be due to conditions and we might not ourselves be in a > position, due as well to conditions, to know. Do you know what I > mean? What do you think? .... S: I think it doesn't really matter. It's just speculation for me. As you say, if there's joy, 'it may not be connected to a past'. In some realms there's more joy, in some more grief. It all has to be understood eventually... Back to wise reflection now on our own worlds of seeing, hearing and so on. That's all that can be known. Hope this doesn't sound flippant... Metta, Sarah ========= #73931 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 5:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Energy and Impermanence sarahprocter... Hi TG, --- TGrand458@... wrote: > Are you suggesting that because sometimes I may use different terms to > represent the same thing that this is a "change of positions"? ... S: No. I was suggesting that your definition of energy changes a lot! Mass, 4 elements, friction, conditions, all things, conditioned, All, everything experienced..... what else? In other words, it becomes quite meaningless:-) These terms which you use in definition mean very different things. .... So in > your > view...phenomena, or things, or conditions, or states...these all > represent > different positions .... S: It depends. Are they all referring to dhammas (realities) or something else? Are they referring to realities like eye consciousness and visible objects, but also to tables and chairs? You'd have to clarify what is included in each. .... > > Let me ask you... regarding the Four Great Elements... Traditionally > termed > as Fire, Water, Wind, and Earth. > > The Abhidhamma with a more scientific analysis (yes indeed) came up with > > different terms... Heat, Cohesion, Expansion, Extension. Am I to > conclude then > that the abhidhamma analysis is all scattered and confused because they > have > taken different positions on the matter than the Suttas present? .... S: No. They're are the characteristics of the same dhammas. They are the dhammas. There is no difference in position here. (Jon and I have 15 min. time-slots on the computer, mine's up!) Metta, Sarah p.s Grateful if others can help reply to any of your further replies - I don't expect much time in the next few days.) ========= #73932 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 5:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Energy and Impermanence sarahprocter... TG, (2 mins grace!) a little more- --- TGrand458@... wrote: > Those who understood the Dhamma the best, the enlightened monks who > lived > with and were taught by the Buddha, didn't even feel competent to make a > > decision on what constitutes "lower offenses" in the Vinaya much less > altering > sutta terminology. Thank goodness...so at least what we received in the > Sutta > and Vinaya remained pretty pure. ... S: Yet, as I pointed out with the example of Maha Kaccayana, they felt very competent to add very detailed commentaries to the suttas (many included in the Sutta Pitaka) and in the case of Sariputta, to elaborate in great detail in the Psm and Abhidhamma.... All these commentaries and Abhidhamma have also remained pretty pure too... > > Hope your having a good trip! ... S: Thx yes... S. #73933 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 5:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) sarahprocter... Hi TG, The extract you quote below is the one I quoted to you with a commentary note when I posted the verse - the idea was to put it in context and pre-empt your reply below!! (I thought it was the one, you'd take most issue with, lol!!) It all comes back to the understanding. When you say 'no state exists', you have the idea that there is no dhamma, no reality (very Mahayana-ish?). In the sutta, the Buddha is stressing, (as clear in the comy and as Nina and others are pointing out also)that such dhammas are empty of any atta. I apologise if any offence was caused by my light-hearted feeble verses. None was intended. oops - really out this time! Metta, Sarah ======= --- TGrand458@... wrote: > > In a message dated 6/26/2007 10:35:27 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, > sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > > TG: > >No essence lies, > In anything, > No state exists, > As its own thing. > .... > S: > Such lofty heights, > You have your rights- > In Mahayana, > Even Pranayama! > > > > ....................................... > > Hi Sarah (Does this sound like Mahayana or Pranayama to > you?) > > "Suppose, bhikkhus, that a magician or a magicians apprentice would > display > a magical illusion at a crossroads. A man with good sight would inspect > it, > ponder it, and carefully investigate it, and it would appear to him to > be > void, hollow, insubstantial. <...> #73934 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 5:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Death - just like now! (Alan Driver's funeral) [5] nilovg Dear Sarah, thank you for this post and also for your Ecard. I understand what you say about laugthter, would like to hear Howard's opinion. I found in Asia that people sometimes laugh when we would not expect it. For instance when they speak about an accident. As you say: < in such contrast to the seriousness and sombre tones we usually find at Western funerals. > As she said:< What would you prefer? That I cry as I talk about the impermanence of dhammas?'.> We cannot help others by dosa, by crying. I had trouble to swallow: wishing well, there are no people. Here I can feel with Howard that we also have our social life, and it is appreciated when people wish well. When the citta is metta, then the object is a being, and metta is praised by the Buddha. When there is wrong view or conceit, it is a different matter. In between metta there are bound to be akusala cittas. It is all mixed. As Connie wrote to me: Helping can be done with wrong view and conceit: I know better, I want to help him. He and me: often conceit. It seems that we can hardly do any kusala. Howard, Ramesh, Han? Opinions please and examples from daily life, that would be helpful to me. Nina. Op 2-jul-2007, om 14:19 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > I'm just trying to be as accurate as possible and her good-humour, > light > and joyous tone (and that of others, as is very common at Thai > funerals) > was very much part of the atmosphere and discussions and in such > contrast > to the seriousness and sombre tones we usually find at Western > funerals > (and the mood in which we arrived). Of course, it's not a frivolous > laughter, but I know you both sometimes find her laughter > disturbing in > the discussions at the Foundation too, as you mentioned before. > Different > accumulations. > > Sometime I asked her why she always laughs when she talks about > 'how bad > dhammas are' and she replied by saying: 'it's by conditions. What > would > you prefer? That I cry as I talk about the impermanence of dhammas?' > (laughing again!). > > It always makes me smile. > > I heard her say on an old tape today (to me): > > "Don't disturb yourself by thinking about concepts and stories. When > there's understanding (of paramattha dhammas), there's no > disturbance at > all." > > I find this all so helpful as I indicated in the 'seriousness' vs > 'sacca' > extract. Any situation, any time, there are just dhammas, 'just > like now'! #73935 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 5:59 am Subject: Conditions, Ch 5, no 6. nilovg Dear friends, Citta and cetasikas which produce rúpa at their arising moment condition rúpa by way of conascence, but mind-produced rúpa does not reciprocally condition citta by way of conascence. The arising of citta does not depend on mind-produced rúpa. As to the fifth group to which conascence-condition pertains, the four Great Elements condition the derived rúpas (upådåya rúpas) by way of conascence, but the derived rúpas do not reciprocally condition the four Great Elements by way of conascence. There are twentyeight kinds of rúpa in all, and the “derived rúpas” are the twentyfour kinds of rúpa other than the four Great Elements of solidity, cohesion, temperature and motion. The derived rúpas are dependant on the four Great Elements, they cannot arise without them. When sound, for instance, arises, it needs solidity, cohesion, temperature and motion. We are attached to the body and to our possessions, but these are only rúpas, the four Great Elements and derived rúpas in different compositions, arising because of conditions. There is a sixth group of phenomena mentioned in the same section of the “Analytical Exposition”of the “Patthåna” concerning conascence- condition, but this is actually a further explanation of the relation of the heart-base to the citta which arises at the heart-base. Throughout life the heart-base has to arise before the citta which is dependant on it. Also the sense-bases which are the physical bases for the sense-cognitions such as seeing or hearing, which arise throughout life, have to arise previously to the cittas which are dependant on them. Rúpa, at its arising moment is too weak to be base, and therefore it can only after it has arisen perform the function of base. The moment of rebirth is the first moment of life and therefore the situation is different; kamma produces the heart- base and the patisandhi-citta which is dependant on it simultaneously. At that moment the patisandhi-citta and the heart- base condition one another by way of conascence. The “Patthåna” (II, Analytical Exposition, 6, VI) states about the relation between heart- base and the citta which is dependant on it as follows: The material states (rúpa-dhammas) are sometimes related to the immaterial states (nåma-dhammas) by conascence-condition and are sometimes not related by conascence-condition. ******* Nina. #73936 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 6:09 am Subject: Listening to the Dhamma, Ch 4, no 5. nilovg There are three degrees of pariññå or full understanding: ñåta pariññå or full understanding of the known tíra.na pariññå or full understanding as investigation pahåna pariññå or full understanding as abandoning The full understanding as the known considers the characteristics of nåma and rúpa, applying the knowledge gained at the first stage of insight, which is then a foundation for the further development of paññå. Paññå should penetrate the characteristics of other realities, besides those which were realized at the moments of vipassanå ñå.na. The full understanding as investigating, tíra.na pariññå, considers the characteristics of all nåmas and rúpas which appear without selecting any specific ones. It sees them as equal, that means: it sees them as only realities which are conditioned. Then paññå becomes more accomplished so that it can realize the arising and falling away of nåma and rúpa at the first stage of mahå-vipassanå, udayabbaya-~naa.na. As paññå develops it penetrates more and more the three general characteristics of the dhammas which appear, of their nature of impermanence, dukkha and anattå. The third pariññå, full understanding as abandoning, extends from the knowledge of dissolution onwards, until enlightenment is attained, because from then on there can be more detachment from nåma and rúpa. Paññå sees more and more the danger and disadvantage of conditioned realities. In the development of satipatthåna we should not make any selection of realities, we should not have expectations with regard to the arising of specific realities. Paññå should also know akusala which arises as it is, as only a conditioned reality. Acharn Somphon reminded us that people dislike dosa, aversion or hate, but that they forget that all akusala is conditioned by ignorance; and thus, ignorance should be eliminated by paññå. The goal of the development of paññå is to have less ignorance of realities. Do we see dhammas already as “equal”, as just dhammas? We do not like to have unwholesome thoughts, but they arise because of conditions, akusala has been accumulated also in countless former lives. We dislike akusala and think that there should be only kusala, but nobody is the owner of the realities which arise. Acharn Sujin reminded us that akusala citta falls away in split-seconds, “It is gone”, she said. But we forget that it is gone and keep on thinking about our akusala which has fallen away already. We are clinging to the self and have aversion about “our akusala”. -------- 1. See “Visuddhimagga” Ch XX, 3-6. I also used Khun Sujin’s “Survey of Paramaììha Dhammas. ******* Nina. #73937 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 6:31 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Serious about Dhamma? Serious about one's defilements? jonoabb Hi Phil, Continuing my reply to this post of yours. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > > Hi Jon ... > > You mention future lives, and this is no doubt a big concern for > you. > > But the best rebirth is one in which we get to hear the teachings > again, > > as we have had the good fortune to do in this present life, and > the best > > condition for this is an interest in those aspects of the > teachings that > > are unique to a Buddha. > > Even at the conceptual level the Buddha's teaching is unique. No > other religion gets at such consistent, methodic training of the > mind to drop the unwholesome and develop wholesome thoughts. I feel > fortunate to have had my life changed so dramatically by even a > shallow understanding of the Buddha's teaching. AS students think > that they have tapped into something that all other Buddhists have > been deprived of, I guess, the "true Dhamma." I used to use that > phrase quite easily. Thank Buddha I don't anymore! :) Well, "true Dhamma" ("sadhamma") is what it's all about. I'm sure every student of the teachings thinks that what he/she understands of the teachings is "true Dhamma". I very much doubt that an interest in sila and samatha alone would be a condition for coming into contact with the teachings in a future life. (Not that I think that's where you're at, Phil; but it's what you seem to be saying above.) > A practice that is focussed on leading a life > > of fewer transgressions through body and speech doesn't qualify in > this > > regard! An appreciation of the importance of the development of > > understanding surely does. > > Again, non-remorse helps for conditions for deeper understanding.I > have said *so many times* that I know an emphasis on sila of the > conceptual level is *not* an end in itself Jon! Please note that. > And though I may not sound like it these days I still have > an "appreciation of the importance of the development of > understanding." I think it's more real than it was before becuase > I'm not trying to rush understanding like I did when I listened to > Acharn Sujin. Agreed, there's no rush. (But then again, there should be no delay either ;-)) > > Perhaps we underestimate the power of kusala of the level of > > satipatthana (or the relative dangers of wrong view vs. other > forms of > > aksuala). The supremacy of insight over all other forms of kusala > is > > emphasised in the suttas. The corollary to this is the extreme > danger > > of wrong view as compared to all the other forms of akusala. > > Jeez, I feel like I have to say the same things a hundred > times.Fair enough. The kind of "wrong view" that is said to be the > extreme danger is not believing in kamma, not believing that deeds > have results, and other basic forms. The Buddha does not say that > *not* having the right view that is mundane right view is the > extreme danger. You might be thinking of lack of belief in kamma as the worst kind of wrong view. That has certainly been said. However, wrong view in general is still the greatest danger among all the kinds of akusala, just as right view is supreme among all kusala. > You can't treat that as an extreme danger or you > will rush things, as Achan Sujin seeks to do. Getting out of samsara > can't be rushed. For all the talk of "aeons" I believe you and > Acharn Sujin and others are so eager for sotapanna that you are > rushing things. I will *not* try to have the right view of the > sotapanna! That is what she is always telling people to do when she > warns of "wrong view" I think. We agree about not rushing, but not about what Acharn Sujin says ;-)). > On the other hand, when you and others talk about having into any > object, whether it is akusala or not being paramount, I think you > flirt with the really dangerous wrong view. The sexiness of panna > that sees into wrong deeds somehow negating the impact of them, or > something like that. The failure to emphasize precepts because of > clinging to self or desire for results involved in emphasizing > precepts. That is wrong view, in my opinion. I got into serious > trouble a couple of years ago because I wasn't emphasizing keeping > precepts because it was oh so cool to think of having wisdom that > was more important than just keeping the precepts, no matter what. Again, we agree about the importance of observing the precepts, but not about what you call the failure of Acharn Sujin to emphasize observance of the precepts because of clinging to self or the desire for results involved in emphasizing precepts. > Now I keep the precepts, or strive to. That is right view for > people like me. (And you, and everyone here, if you ask me.) > > You've unleashed a little torrent. I think Sarah and you really > tend to write things that prompt me to reply, adding to the > snowball, but fair enough. A few days ago I tried to find another > forum where I could discuss Dhamma without so many deep topics, but > really, DSG is the best Dhamma forum, and I'm really grateful for it. Thanks for these comments, Phil. We appreciate your contribution to the list. Jon #73938 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 6:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (TG, and Michael) - -----Original Message----- From: Nina van Gorkom To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sun, 1 Jul 2007 2:11 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) Hi TG, In apost to Jon you said: realities with their own characteristics." --------- N: In Pali: paramattha dhammas with sabhava lakkha.na. I thought that you find that this smacks of substantialism as you and Howard call it. But you are concerned that this is not in agreement with the suttas. You quoted the sutta about the foam, which is beautiful, excellent. Here the Buddha spoke about the khandhas as having no substance, in Pali sara. Excellent. This does not mean that they have no sabhava lakkhana, their own characteristics. I wanted to avoid discussing this again, since it was discussed often in the past. See archives: sabhava lakkhana. I find that discussions tend to be so often about terms. I quote from an old post by Rob K: <[dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Nina, Robert and Michael Thanks Michael, I think I understand the points Kalupahana is trying to make. Is it right that he objects to the word 'sabhava' because this means 'essence'? But he doesn't object to such words as dhamma (or dhatu, element, or ayatana, sense field, or khandha, aggregate,?) Does he object to words such as lakkhana, characteristic? I would like to stress that although sabhava means essence, whne the comemntaries talk about sabhava dhammas they go to lengths to stress that sabhava in such cases never means something unconditioned (except for nibbana). So if we look at for example feeling. This is sabhava dhamma (as against asabhava such as 'soul' which is imaginary). Feeling is impermanent, dukkha and anatta. There are various kinds of feeling when we consider by way of door. So the Visuddhimagga in the section on Paticcasamuppada explains by way of the eye-door: 'beginning with eye-contact is a condition in eight ways as conascence, mutuality, support, result, nutriment association, presence and non- disappaearence conditions, for the five kinds of feelings that have respectively eye sensitivity etc. as their respective basis...' And in the Phena Sutta (A Lump of Foam) which Sarah quoted some time back the commentary by Buddhaghosa says about feeling: ( translated by B.Bodhi:) ***** note 190: "Spk: a bubble (bubbu.la) is feeble and cannot be grasped, for it breaks up as soon as it is seized; so too feeling is feeble and cannot be grasped as permanent and stable. As a bubble arises and ceases in a drop of water and does not last long, so too with feeling: 100,000 `ko.tis' of feelings arise and cease in the time of a fingersnap (one ko.ti = 10 million). As a bubble arises in dependence on conditions, so feeling arises in dependence on a sense base, an object, the defilements, and contact." I include this just to show how much stress is laid on conditionality in the commentaries. There is never any hint that dhammas could exist independent of conditions. RobertK ****** Nina. Op 1-jul-2007, om 19:28 heeft TGrand458@... het volgende geschreven: > You seems to agree with my understanding of the Sutta, then say I > fall over > sabhava ... which I guess means I can't understand it, then wish to > no longer > discuss this important point. Oh well. I'm lost. ;-) If you wish to no > longer discuss it, that's fine. ================================ The content that is our experience at the time that (we say) we feel hardness is different from that on the occasion that (we say) we feel warmth. They are distinguishable, and when we reify (i.e., view those "elements of experience" as separate entities, those entities have their "own" characteristics. The error, IMO, isn't in distinguishing quality of experience or even in conceptualizing, but in taking our "thing-making" seriously. We have, as you pointed out, Nina, rehashed this issue again and again. I think it is partly terminological. The problem with the word 'sabhava' is less the 'bhava' than the 'sa'. The literal reading suggests "own" in the sense of "independent, inherent, and unconditioned", whereas all that is meant by 'sabhava' in Theravada is "lakkhana" (or "quality" or, better, "characteristic") - the means for distinguishing, which, of course can and should be available. (It would not constitute insight were we unable to distinguish warmth from hardness. The concepts and names, of course, are another issue, different from the recognizing and distinguishing. But without the recognizing and distinguishing, we would be like the "sessile sea anaemone" that David Kalupahana is so fond of quoting William James speaking of.) With metta, Howard #73939 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 7:09 am Subject: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) scottduncan2 Dear TG, Thanks for going to the trouble of finding all of the sutta passages. I'll slowly find the Pali (just for me - I like to learn that way). TG: "Phenomena are actually arising, changing, and ceasing in accordance to causal forces. "Their" interaction is what generates conditional dynamics and instigates impermanence. Conditionality and impermanence are forged by the same process." Scott: I'm familiar with arising and ceasing. Can you say more about the 'changing' aspect of phenomena? How does the 'interaction' of phenomena generate 'conditional dynamics'? What is the 'process' which forges both conditionality and impermanence? Is a higher order process being postulated? If so, what is the cause of this process? This seems to suggest that the 'arising, changing, and ceasing' of phenomena causes conditionality and that the 'interaction' of phenomena causes ('instigates') impermanence. Also, can you give examples of the 'phenomena' being discussed? Phassamuulakasutta.m Seyyathaapi bhikkhave dvinna.m ka~n~nhaana.m sa"ngha~n~nhanasamodhaanaa usmaa jaayati tejo abhinibbattati, tesa.m yeva ka~n~nhà na.m naanaa bhaavaa vinikkhepaa yaa tajjaa usmaa saa nirujajhati, saa vuupasammati. Evameva kho bhikkhave imaa tisso vedanaa phassajaa phassamuulakaa phassanidaanaa phassapaccayaa tajja.m tajja.m phassa.m pa.ticca tajjaa tajjaa vedanaa uppajjanti. Tajjassa tajjassa phassassa nirodhaa tajjaa tajjà vedanaa nirujajhantiiti. "...just as heat is generated and fire is produced from the conjunction and friction of two fire-sticks, but when the sticks are separated and laid aside the resultant heat ceases and subsides; so too, these three feelings [pleasant, painful, neutral] are born of contact, rooted in contact, with contact as their source and condition. In dependence on the appropriate contacts the corresponding feelings arise; with the cessation of the appropriate contacts the corresponding feelings cease." Scott: In the system being proposed, how is contact or phassa understood, in other words, what is phassa? What would it mean, from within this system, to refer to phassa as a root (phassamuulaka)? 'In dependence on...' is 'pa.ticca', I think. This is (PTS PED): "Pa.ticca [ger. of pacceti, paá¹+i; cp. BSk. pratiitya] grounded on, on account of, concerning, because (with acc.)..." Scott: How would this be understood from within the proposed system? Sincerely, Scott. #73940 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 7:12 am Subject: [dsg] Re: flashbacks and guilt scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, Thanks for the reply: Sarah: "...Back to wise reflection now on our own worlds of seeing, hearing and so on. That's all that can be known. Hope this doesn't sound flippant..." Scott: Not at all, and quite the only thing to do. My regards to colleagues unmet. Sincerely, Scott. #73941 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 7:22 am Subject: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) scottduncan2 Dear Jon, Regarding: J: "Sorry, but I have no thoughts on this question as yet...Will get back to you later if any thoughts occur." Scott: No rush, Jon. I'll look forward to anything you come up with. Sincerely, Scott. #73942 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 7:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - -----Original Message----- From: kenhowardau To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sun, 1 Jul 2007 8:45 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) Hi Howard (and Nina), ------------ <. . .> H: > Nina, in a sense there is no table. But in another sense, in terms of a variety of associated mental operations and experiences, there is. --------------- At first you say there is no table, and then you say there *is* a table. But you can't have it both ways, surely. Ultimately, a table can be existent or non-existent; it can't be both. If it could be both then the term "ultimately" would have no meaning. -------------------------------------- Howard: Ken, are you saying that you didn't understand my statement? You don't know what I Mean by "in a sense"? I'm sorry. It will just have to stand on its own. -------------------------- H: > That issue aside, I think that care must be taken in saying that a table is not "impermanent, afflictive, and non-self". The Buddha described many conventional objects in such terms, especially as regards impermanence and dukkha. -------------------------- But he said ultimately ("in brief" "in truth and reality") the five khandhas are impermanent. So, even when he was speaking in conventional terms his audience understood that, ultimately, he was referring to the five khandhas. ---------------------------------- Howard: Yeah, I know. :-) --------------------------------- ------------------------------------ H: > Are there not concepts that are clung to and thereby conditions for suffering? ------------------------------------ There is clinging, but there is never any table that is clung to. In cases where there *seems* to be clinging to table the object of clinging is illusory (pannatti). It is the dhammas that *think* of table that act as conditions. The concept itself does not act as anything. ---------------------------------- Howard: I'm not in disagreement with you. ---------------------------------- -------------------- H: > Also, denying impermanence, affliction, and non-self to conventional objects must not allow for affirming permanence, satisfactoriness, and self with respect to them. -------------------- That's unlikely to happen, isn't it? --------------------------------- Howard: Actually, there are folks who think of concepts as permanent! --------------------------------- It is much more likely to happen as a result of *not* denying them anicca, dukkha, anatta or any other absolute characteristic. -------------------------- H: > The foregoing is one issue, the matter of the importance of concepts and not avoiding application of Dhammic matters to them. But there is another issue to consider as well: ina, pleasant bodily sensations (for example) as entities, are concepts also. --------------------------- Howard: By "experience" I mean the content/object of consciousness. --------------------------- By "entities" I think you mean "paramattha dhammas." You are saying that paramattha dhammas are concepts. If that were so the Abhidhamma would be a farce! ------------------------ H: > What we feel in the body at any time is actual experience, but as soon as it is characterized via speech and conceived of as a separate "thing", we leave the reality and turn to concept. ------------------------ What we feel (tactile rupa) is not experience. 'In the felt there is only the felt.' There is no experience (nama) in the felt (rupa). ---------------------------------- But I digress: your main point was that the dhamma we experience now does not exist later when we talk about it: ----------------------------- H: > Nothing actually experienced remains (as is) even for a moment, ------------------------------ Now you are extending that to the single moment (or sub-moment) in which we experience a dhamma. Are you saying then that a nama cannot directly experience a characteristic of another nama or rupa? ------------------------------------------- H: > nor does it have separate existence or essence, -------------------------------------------- By your reasoning that may be so, but it is not what we read in the texts. ------------------------------------------- H: > nor can it satisfy. But naming "it", thinking of "it", and characterizing "it" turns away from the reality. This is why, I think, the Ch'an/Zen folks don't say "Think about it," but instead say "Look! Look!" ------------------------------------------- I hope they don't say that. If they do, they are like the self-help gurus I was talking to Phil about. Unrealistic expectations can give gullible devotees a shot of adrenaline, but they will inevitably lead to disappointment, anger and self-recrimination. There can be no sudden "just by looking" enlightenment. Enlightenment develops gradually with repeated listening, considering and right understanding (of conditioned namas and rupas). Ken H ================================= With metta, Howard #73943 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 7:57 am Subject: Re: Sammaadi.t.thi study corner scottduncan2 Dear All, 40. "Saying, 'Good, friend,' the bhikkhus delighted and rejoiced in the venerable Saariputta's words. Then they asked him a further question: 'But, friend, might there be another way in which a noble disciple is one of right view...and has arrived at this true Dhamma?' - 'There might be, friends. Saadhaavusoti kho te bhikkhuu aayasmato saariputtassa bhaasita.m abhinanditvaa anumoditvaa aayasmanta.m saariputta.m uttari.m pa~nha.m aapucchu.m: " siyaa panaavuso a~n~nopi pariyaayo yathaa ariyasaavako sammaadi.t.thi hoti ujugataassa di.t.thi, dhamme aveccappasaadena samannaagato' aagato ima.m saddhammanti?" 41. "When, friends, a noble disciple understands feeling, the origin of feeling, the cessation of feeling, and the way leading to the cessation of feeling, in that way he is one of right view...and has arrived at this true Dhamma. Siyaa aavuso. Yato kho aavuso ariyasaavako vedana~nca pajaanaati, vedanaasamudaya~nca pajaanaati, vedanaanirodha~nca pajaanaati, vedanaanirodhagaamini.m pa.tipada~nca pajaanaati, ettaavatà pi kho aavuso ariyasaavako sammaadi.t.thi hoti. Ujugataassa di.t.thi. Dhamme aveccappasaadena samannaagato aagato ima.m saddhammanti. 42. "And what is feeling, what is the origin of feeling, what is the cessation of feeling, and what is the way leading to the cessation of feeling? These are the six classes of feeling: feeling born of eye-contact, feeling born of ear-contact, feeling born of nose-contact, feeling born of tongue-contact, feeling born of body-contact, feeling born of mind contact. With the arising of contact there is the arising of feeling. With the cessation of contact there is the cessation of feeling. The way leading to the cessation of feeling is just this Noble Eightfold Path; that is right view...right concentration. Katamaa panaavuso vedanaa? Katamo vedanaasamudayo? Katamo vedanaanirodho? Katamaa vedanaanirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa?Ti. Chayime aavuso vedanaakaayaa: cakkhusamphassajaa vedanaa, sotasamphassajaa vedanaa, ghaanasampassajaa vedanaa, jivhaasamphassajaa vedanaa, kaayasamphassajaa vedanaa, manosamphassajaa vedanaa. Phassasamudayaa vedanaasamudayo. Phassa nirodhaa vedanaanirodho. Ayameva ariyo a.t.tha"ngiko maggo vedanaanirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa seyyathiida.m: sammaadi.t.thi sammaasa"nkappo, sammaavaacaa, sammaakammanto, sammaaaajiivo sammaavaayaamo sammaasati, sammaasamaadhi 43. "When a noble disciple has thus understood feeling, the origin of feeling, the cessation of feeling, and the way leading to the cessation of feeling...he here and now makes an end of suffering. In that way too a noble disciple is one of right view...and has arrived at this true Dhamma." Yato kho aavuso ariyasaavako eva.m vedana.m pajaanaati, eva.m vedanaasamudaya.m pajaanaati, eva.m vedanaanirodha.m pajaanaati, eva.m vedanaanirodhagaamini.m pa.tipada.m pajaanaati, so sabbaso raagaanusaya.m pahaaya pa,tighaanusaya.m pa.tivinodetvaa asmiiti di.t.thimaanaanusaya.m samuuhanitvaa avijja.m pahaaya vijja.m uppaadetvaa di.t.theva dhamme dukkhassanta"nkaro hoti. Ettaavataapi kho aavuso ariyasaavako sammaadi.t.thi hoti. Ujugataassa di.t.thi. Dhamme aveccappasaadena samannaagato aagato ima.m saddhammanti. Sincerely, Scott. #73944 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 9:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] concepts. was: dhammas and impermanence. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - -----Original Message----- From: Nina van Gorkom To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 3:11 am Subject: [dsg] concepts. was: dhammas and impermanence. Hi Howard, I hope you have a nice stay with your family, and that Sophie is well. --------------------------- Howard: Thanks! :-) Yes, the visit is wonderful, and Sophie is doing beautifully!! --------------------------- I planned a letter to you, thinking things over when we were away, because after our disagreement, someone on the Pali list asked me to compare sutta and abhidhamma. This is for later, when time allows. -------------------------- Howard: Good. :-) -------------------------- Now your post: -------- H: I think that care must be taken in saying that a table is not "impermanent, afflictive, and non-self". The Buddha described many conventional objects in such terms, especially as regards impermanence and dukkha. Are there not concepts that are clung to and thereby conditions for suffering? ------- N: right, we also cling to concepts, such as persons, and this causes sorrow. The Buddha went to the deepest roots of clinging: he always pointed to the nama and rupa that appear at this moment. He used examples such as a chariot that wears out to bring us back to the reality appearing now. -------------------------------- Howard: Yes, indeed. I agree. Conceptual deconstruction is a useful support for learning to cease clinging to "entities". ------------------------------- You know, everybody can say that a chariot wears out, that it does not last, but that is only thinking and this does not change our life. What is special about the Buddha's teaching: what is impermanent is not self. There is no control over nama and rupa, because they fall away within splitseconds. ------------------------------ Howard: And they, also, are, as soon as we reify them, also concept-only. They are, as you point out, fleeting & ungraspable, and unsatisfying, and not-self. There is nothing "to them," and these phantoms are "the cards" upon which out "house of cards" world is built! ;-) ------------------------------- The nama and rupa that arise do so because there were the right conditions for their arising. What arises has to fall away. I know that this is not the issue for you. I just want to point out the difference between the Buddha's teaching and other teachings which also taught impermanence. I agree that concepts can remind us, but it is not sufficient. Let us go to the essence of the Dhamma. ---------------------------------- Howard: Yes. The unnameable, ungraspable, willow-the-wisp elements of experience, themselves, upon which we base our concepts are nearly nothing at all, and are certainly not the "things" we view them to be. ------- H: ....The foregoing is one issue, the matter of the importance of concepts and not avoiding application of Dhammic matters to them. ------ N: Let us be concrete: there is no Lodewijk. I may tell myself a hundred times that what I take for Lodewijk are nama and rupa that are impermanent, but there is still clinging. ----------------------------- Howard: Yes, there is clinging - to "Lodewijk concept" and to pleasant-sensation concepts as well. There is clinging to "paramattha-dhamma" concept, and to "awakening" concept, and to a whole world of concept. We need to release out grasping at concept in general. ------------------------------ ?Thinking about impermanence cannot cure me. Never. Only awareness and direct understanding of the present reality can help to cope with troubles and tribulations. ----------------------------- Howard: Quite so - direct understanding, not conceptual. ----------------------------- ?Also, only the anagami has eradicated clinging to sense objects. First the wrong view of self has to go. By understanding nama and rupa as they are. ---------- H: But there is another issue to consider as well: Nina, pleasant bodily sensations (for example) as entities, are concepts also. What we feel in the body at any time is actual experience, but as soon as it is characterized via speech and conceived of as a separate "thing", we leave the reality and turn to concept. -------- N: But gradually we can learn to be mindful of feeling or any other reality without naming it, thinking about it. Then there are no entities, there is no holding on. --------------------------------- Howard: That is right, Nina. We agree. :-) ---------------------------------- -------- H: Nothing actually experienced remains (as is) even for a moment, nor does it have separate existence or essence, nor can it satisfy. But naming "it", thinking of "it", and characterizing "it" turns away from the reality. This is why, I think, the Ch'an/Zen folks don't say "Think about it," but instead say "Look! Look!" --------- N: 'Look' does not clarify very much. Shall we say: understand it. It is understanding that has to be developed. This leads to letting go, to detachment. ------------------------------ Howard: Without looking and seeing, with a well cultivated mind, of course, there can be no understanding, at least not the understanding that frees. ------------------------------ Nina. ================================= With metta, Howard #73945 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 11:09 am Subject: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) scottduncan2 Dear TG, "...dvinna.m ka~n~nhaana.m..." Should be: dvinna.m ka.t.thaana.m. S. #73946 From: connie Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 2:43 pm Subject: funerals. > nichiconn Dear Nina, As she said:< What would you prefer? That I cry as I talk about the impermanence of dhammas?'.> We cannot help others by dosa, by crying. I had trouble to swallow: wishing well, there are no people. <> C:) everything is so straightforward. lol. who understands? moment by moment, story by story. hodcarriers and levitators all;) mighty bricklayers against the wall; who knows much of anything, let alone of fall? (who started this, anyway? i'm going back to stuttering.) >> Dispeller 2255. IDA.M TATHAAGATASSA <339.5> ("this is the Tathaagata's"): this Tathaagata's knowledge consisiting of knowing in all these ways the kamma interval and the kamma-result interval should be understood as the second power in the sense of non-wavering. {78} << C: We don't even know how another might use a gift or whether it would even be acceptable; it is out of our hands, even if we are still attached to it, looking for results. Kusala may be but a drop, but good has already accumulated and in our lively house of cards, the dealer pays out, more or less considerate of the greater odds whenever one's best wishes show against a hand of ill-will or some joker pulls a grace out of the hole & welcomes defeat, but "don't go there"! rd: Deceivers ever are the thoughts of men, Fain for the haunts where Maara finds his prey; And running ever on from birth to birth, To the dread circle bound - a witless world. (164) pruitt: 164. Since the mind indeed is like an illusion by which blind ordinary people are deceived. Being under the influence of Maara, they do not pass beyond continued existence. Therefore it is said: deceived by mind, etc. rd: But thou, O Sister, bound to other goals, Thine is't to break those Fetters five: the lust Of sense, ill-will, delusion of the Self, The taint of rites and ritual, and doubt, (165) That drag thee backward to the hither shore. --Therii Guttaa c. #73947 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 3:38 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Death - just like now! (Alan Driver's funeral) [1] buddhatrue Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi James, > > --- buddhatrue wrote: > > > Let me ask you a question: Do you wish for others a fortunate rebirth? > ... > S: Definitely a fortunate (rather than an unfortunate one), given that > there are no arahants around....(In addition to Connie's other quotes, > see*) > ... > > If so, then the same reasons you wish for them a fortunate rebirth > > also apply to yourself. There is nothing selfish about wishing for > > yourself a fortunate rebirth just as you wish the same for others. > ... > S: This is the same as the 'metta to oneself' question. We can wish others > good fortune, happy experiences and so on with goodwill and metta. When we > wish ourselves all the goodies, it is just the usual attachment... > We wish ourselves pleasant experiences all day long. This is quite > different from the Buddha's descriptions of the the good results which > arise from kusala. When there is metta, the sutta says we sleep well. If > we try to have metta in order to sleep well, it's not the same! Yes, it is the same. The results can be the same. The Buddha convinced his brother to follow his path by showing his brother that he would have lots of sex in deva realms as a result! He convinced his brother, who was a very lecherous fellow, to become a monk so that he could have more sex in the future! You don't have to be so mighty, or pretend to be so mighty, to follow the Buddha's teaching. From The Path of Purification, "Recollection of Generosity": When he has apprehended the sign in that, he should go into solitary retreat and recollect his own generosity in its special qualities of being free from the stain of avarice, etc., as follows: `It is gain for me, it is great gain for me, that in a generation obsessed by the stain of avarice I abide with my heart free from stain by avarice, and I am freely generous and open-handed, that I delight in relinquishing, expect to be asked, and rejoice in giving and sharing'. Herein, it is `gain for me': it is my gain, advantage. The intention is: I surely partake of those kinds of gain for a giver that have been commended by the Blessed One as follows: `A man who gives life [by giving food] shall have life either divine or human'… Vism. VIII, 108 In other words, it isn't selfish to hope for, expect, or plan for a fortunate rebirth (and other mundane advantages....such as sleeping well). One should practice generosity (as well as other virtues) while keeping in mind the personal advantages in which one will partake from such practices. This is what the Buddha taught and what the Ancients practiced. So, if one gives to the temple or gives to others, and does so with the thought "I am doing this so that I will have a fortunate rebirth", believe it or not, that person is practicing the Dhamma! If a person gives to the temple or to others with the thought "I am doing this just because it is the right thing to do and I don't expect any reward", that person is a self-righteous idiot! If a person gives to the temple or to others and doesn't have any thought in mind because giving is natural to that person, then that person has a highly purified mind already and falls outside of the scope of this discussion. Metta, James #73948 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 4:35 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sammaadi.t.thi studycorner. lbidd2 Hi Nina, N: "Seeing etc. are always accompanied by indifferent feeling. So is receiving, sampaticchanacitta. As to investigating, santiira.nacitta, if the object is extraordinarily pleasant it is accompanied by pleasant feeling, but if not, by indifferent feeling. As to registration, tadaarammanacitta, this is more variable, since it is also dependent on the feeling accompanying the javanacittas preceding it." L: Hmm, this is complicated. It looks like the pleasant feeling that arises when I hear "good" music is the pleasant feeling that accompanies investigating consciousness, or possibly a pleasant feeling that accompanies registration and conditions craving for becoming (continuing) in a following mind-door process. What resultant conscousness does unpleasant feeling accompany when I hear "bad" music? Seems like it must be registration again. Does registration have the same feeling as the previous javana? In the case of "bad" music it seems that the resultant neutral feeling of ear consciousness as well as receiving and investigation condition dosa with unpleasant feeling (and desire for its cessation as subtext) followed by registration with unpleasant feeling. So it must be a mix of kamma and vipaka feeling that I experience on the occasion of hearing bad music. But it is only the resultant unpleasant feeling that conditions desire for cessation. Right? Larry #73949 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 4:38 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What is the wrong view? (References from the MN anthology) lbidd2 Hi Jon and Nina, Right you are. I forgot all about this: Nina: "In order to become lokuttara pa~n~naa, there must be first mundane right view, insight to be developed in stages." L: Still, I would maintain that faith without insight constitutes a level of mundane right view. Larry #73950 From: TGrand458@... Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 1:23 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) TGrand458@... Hi Scott In a message dated 7/2/2007 8:10:51 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: Dear TG, Thanks for going to the trouble of finding all of the sutta passages. I'll slowly find the Pali (just for me - I like to learn that way). TG: "Phenomena are actually arising, changing, and ceasing in accordance to causal forces. "Their" interaction is what generates conditional dynamics and instigates impermanence. Conditionality and impermanence are forged by the same process." Scott: I'm familiar with arising and ceasing. Can you say more about the 'changing' aspect of phenomena? How does the 'interaction' of phenomena generate 'conditional dynamics'? What is the 'process' which forges both conditionality and impermanence? Is a higher order process being postulated? If so, what is the cause of this process? .......................................... NEW TG: BB's translations are replete with "change" and "altering" as well as "disintegrate/disintegration." I do not know what Pali words he is translating. Also, several Sutta passages speak of "wearing away" or "changing" due to frictional contact. I've posted these things recently. Posted some again below. The "Cause" of the process, IMO, is the Four Great Elements. This can be understood when the Four Great Element are understood as "dynamic forces" rather than "static things." Hence, I see Heat, Cohesion, Expansion, and Extension as -- Volatile Energy, Inward Energy, Outward Energy, and Structural (Balanced) Energy; respectively. (The word "energy" could be exchanged for "movement" or "momentum" or "dynamics" or "predominance" with no problem. Is this "neo-commentarialism?" ... yes it is. Do I think its well supported by the Suttas, yes. The question is ... is it true and does it help the mind understand the nature of conditionality and therefore to deepen insight into and detachment from conditionality? It depends on how it is utilized for maximum benefit. What you are getting here is a "brief" summary. ............................................ This seems to suggest that the 'arising, changing, and ceasing' of phenomena causes conditionality ............................................ NEW TG: The arising, changing, ceasing of phenomena IS conditionality. ................................................ and that the 'interaction' of phenomena causes ('instigates'phenomena causes ('i ............................................... NEW TG: Interaction is impermanence in action. In the following four extracts, the Buddha points to contacting states or frictional states as a cause of impermanence… “Imposthume, brethren, is a term for body, of the four elements compounded, of parents sprung, on rice and gruel fed, impermanent, of a nature to be worn away, pounded away, broken and scattered.” (The Buddha . . . Book of the Kindred Sayings (KS), (Samyutta Nikaya), vol. 4, pg. 50) The descriptions above: -- “worn,” “pounded,” “broken,” and “scattered” clearly indicate alteration due to contacting or interacting forces. “When, Bhikkhus (Buddhist monks), a carpenter or carpenter’s apprentice looks at the handle of his adze, he sees the impressions of his fingers and his thumb, but he does not know: ‘So much of the adze handle has been worn away today, so much yesterday, so much earlier.’ But when it has worn away, the knowledge occurs to him that it has worn away.” (The Buddha . . . The Connected Discourses of the Buddha (CDB), (Samyutta Nikaya), vol. 1, pg. 960 – 961) And, after being asked if he could describe the time period of an aeon, the Buddha said: – “Suppose, brother, there were a great crag, a hill one yogana wide (about 7-8 miles), one yogana across, one yogana high without chasms or clefts, a solid mass. And a man at the end of every hundred years were to stroke it once each time with a kasi cloth. Well, that mountain in this way would sooner be done away with and ended than an aeon.” (The Buddha . . . KS, vol. 2, pg. 121-122) “…suppose there were a seafaring ship bound with rigging that had worn out in the water for six months. It would be hauled up on dry land during the cold season and its rigging would further be attacked by wind and sun. Inundated by rain from a rain cloud, the rigging would easily collapse and rot away.” (The Buddha . . . CDB, vol. 2, pg. 1557) These passages indicate wearing away due to contact/friction: common sense knowledge at this level. .................................................... Also, can you give examples of the 'phenomena' being discussed? ................................................ NEW TG: Whatever arises, whatever changes, whatever ceases; is what's being discussed. The more we deal with "specific examples" in a discussion at this level, the more we bring delusion into play. I.E., I don't believe that "identifiable states, experiences, elements or aggregates" exist in their own right. As "relativities" yes, but not in their own right. So, talking about them as if they were "self contained things" is delusional. I'm not sure if this addresses what you had in mind. .............................................. Phassamuulakasutta.P Seyyathaapi bhikkhave dvinna.m ka~n~nhaana.S sa"ngha~n~nhanasamosa"ngha~n~nhanasamodhaanaa usmaa jaayati tejo yeva ka~n~nhà na.m naanaa bhaavaa vinikkhepaa yaa tajjaa usmaa saa nirujajhati, saa vuupasammati. Evameva kho bhikkhave imaa tisso vedanaa phassajaa phassamuulakaa phassanidaanaa phassapaccayaa tajja.m tajja.m phassa.m pa.ticca tajjaa tajjaa vedanaa uppajjanti. Tajjassa tajjassa phassassa nirodhaa tajjaa tajjà vedanaa nirujajhantiiti. "...just as heat is generated and fire is produced from the conjunction and friction of two fire-sticks, but when the sticks are separated and laid aside the resultant heat ceases and subsides; so too, these three feelings [pleasant, painful, neutral] are born of contact, rooted in contact, with contact as their source and condition. In dependence on the appropriate contacts the corresponding feelings arise; with the cessation of the appropriate contacts the corresponding feelings cease." Scott: In the system being proposed, how is contact or phassa understood, in other words, what is phassa? What would it mean, from within this system, to refer to phassa as a root (phassamuulaka)w ............................................. NEW TG" Phassa is a specific class of contacts dealing with the arising of consciousness. In the above quote, the words "conjunction" and "friction" are indicative of "contact in general." As can be seen from the above quote, if contemplated, ... it is this 'conjunction," "friction," that cause the alteration and changes the fire-sticks. Hence proving my point that "contact" (all types of contact) / interaction is responsible for altering phenomena. When the contact between the fire-sticks stops, the alteration generated by such contact also stops. (Of course there are contacts around all the time and the rate of change is dependent on the degree of contact.) This can be readily understood by carefully observing and contemplating anything's arising, changing, and ceasing factors. The remarks on feeling, in the above quote, show that it is exactly the same process. The above quote, you cited, is an excellent exemplification of Inter-Displacing Conditional Relativity....both in terms of the fire-sticks and feeling. The coming-together of things/forces results in displacement and alteration of what was previously there. ........................................................ 'In dependence on...' is 'pa.ticca', I think. This is (PTS PED): "Pa.ticca [ger. of pacceti, paá¹­i+i; cp. BSk. pratiitya] grounded on, on account of, concerning, because (with acc.)..." Scott: How would this be understood from within the proposed system? ................................................. NEW TG: I'm not sure I understand you. Whatever can be identified as arising/arisen is supported by other conditions. In that sense it is "in dependence on." ............................................................... TG OUT #73951 From: TGrand458@... Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 1:50 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) TGrand458@... In a message dated 7/2/2007 3:22:54 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: This condition is similar to proximity-condition, anantara-paccaya, and contiguity-condition, samanantara-condition . The citta which falls away conditions the arising of the next one by way of proximity-condition and contiguity-condition. However, the next citta can only arise when the preceding one has fallen away, when it is absent. Absence does not mean that the citta never was there; it has arisen and fallen away, and then it conditions the arising of the subsequent citta without any interval. There can only be one citta at a time which arises and then falls away, but there is a sucession of cittas from birth to death and then there is rebirth again. The cycle of birth and death continues until all defilements have been eradicated and one finally passes away.> Nina. ............................................. Hi Nina Thanks for taking the time to post this explanation. From what I can gather, we then have three types of conditions fulfilling the same basic function...proximity, contiguity, and absence. Nevertheless, to say the absence of something is a condition for the arising of something is directly contradicted by the formula of Dependent Arising... This being, that is. etc. The "progressive bubble citta theory" with cittas popping on and off one after another is not one I accept or reject verbatim. I would deal with it as if it were a theory and not deal with it as if it were absolute fact. When we overlay the 24 (22) or (21) conditional relations on this citta outlook, we are laying theory on top of theory. In my view, if one citta ceases before it conditions/meets the following citta, it does not "live" as an affective factor to actually do any conditioning. Conditions do "conditioning" when they meet or combine qualities. By not meeting, they cannot condition. Hence, the Buddha taught phassa as the "coming together" of sense object, sense base, and the consciousness that arises in accordance with the contacting dyad of sense base and sense object. “Monks, consciousness comes to be in dependence on a dyad. And how, monks, does consciousness come to be in dependence on a dyad? In dependence on eye and forms there arises eye-consciousness. The eye is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise; forms are impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. Thus this dyad is moving and tottering, impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. “Eye-consciousness is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. The cause and condition for the arising of eye-consciousness is also impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. When, monks, eye-consciousness has arisen in dependence on a condition that is impermanent, how could it be permanent? “The meeting, the encounter, the occurrence of these three things is called eye-contact. Eye-contact too is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. The cause and condition for the arising of eye-contact is also impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. When, monks, eye-contact has arisen in dependence on a condition that is impermanent, how could it be permanent? “Contacted, monks, one feels, contacted one intends, contacted one perceives. Thus these things too are moving and tottering, impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. [The Buddha proceeds to analyze the ear-consciousness, nose-consciousness, tongue-consciousness, body-consciousness, and mind-consciousness in the same manner and finishes with...] “It is in such a way, monks, that consciousness comes to be in dependence on a dyad.” (The Buddha . . . CDB, vol. 2, pg. 1172) TG #73952 From: TGrand458@... Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 2:14 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) TGrand458@... In a message dated 7/2/2007 4:46:17 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: I don't remember saying anything about knowing "present reality perfectly in all respects and in perfect detail." It doesn't sound like me ;-)) As regards your question, "just when should we start to let go?", I'm not sure where you're coming from here, either. To my understanding, the development of insight begins with the arising of awareness that is aware of a presently arising dhamma as it is, for example, of visible object as just visible object, a rupa. How does that sound to you? Jon ......................................... Hi Jon Insight has many levels and many aspects. One starts by dealing with all these levels and aspects and builds insight the best one can gradually. The one you mention above is one of those aspects and somewhat elementary. My question remains, just when do you feel you will know these elements well enough to start doing to real work of abandoning them? Seems to me some folks here are so intrigued with "ultimate realities" that they think "knowing them" is the heart and soul of the Buddha's teaching. I don't see that they are even interested in trying to abandon them. But rather, wish to keep seeing them and seeing them and seeing them. I rather think the Buddha broke things into elements and aggregates merely to help the mind reflect off of and detach from these same things. And the sooner the better. (NOTE: In rereading your above, apparently you don't understand where I'm coming from about detaching (letting go) from conditions? I find that astonishing. If that's really the case, then there's nothing we can share in discussing Buddha's teaching and you may want to ignore this post.) You did not say the above about knowing in all respects etc. I did. If you understand the meaning, then please answer accordingly. If not, I'm sorry I wasn't more clear. As far as debating games and equivocations go, I'm getting tired of them. TG #73953 From: TGrand458@... Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 2:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) TGrand458@... In a message dated 7/2/2007 4:50:48 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: Again, my question is what difference it makes, in terms of the development of insight, whether one considers dhammas to have their "own" characteristics or not? Jon .................................. Hi Jon I'm answering that question with great effort but it doesn't seem to register with you. Oh well. Best wishes. TG #73954 From: TGrand458@... Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 2:29 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Energy and Impermanence TGrand458@... In a message dated 7/2/2007 6:38:27 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: S: No. I was suggesting that your definition of energy changes a lot! Mass, 4 elements, friction, conditions, all things, conditioned, All, everything experienced.everything In other words, it becomes quite meaningless:In other words, it becomes q in definition mean very different things. .................................. Hi Sarah All conditionality is energy (affective forces). So yes, all phenomena and phenomenal interactions are energies too. "What else?" Every conditioned thing! Sorry if that's confusing, but its not confusing to me...and its very meaningful to me as well. Regarding these "terms meaning different things" .... they are different configurations of energy. After all, all of these things are called "conditions" and that doesn't seem to confuse you. Is the word "conditions" meaningless then? I like thinking in terms of energies because its helps in seeing/understanding dynamic process and the altering flow of conditions ... which importantly includes feelings. TG #73955 From: TGrand458@... Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 2:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Energy and Impermanence TGrand458@... In a message dated 7/2/2007 6:42:02 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: S: Yet, as I pointed out with the example of Maha Kaccayana, they felt very competent to add very detailed commentaries to the suttas (many included in the Sutta Pitaka) and in the case of Sariputta, to elaborate in great detail in the Psm and Abhidhamma..in S. ..................................... Hi Sarah I don't think the above is historically known. Sounds like loose legend to me. After all, many would have us believing the Buddha taught the entire Abhidhamma in a heaven world. TG #73956 From: TGrand458@... Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 2:43 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) TGrand458@... Hi Sarah In a message dated 7/2/2007 6:51:51 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Hi TG, The extract you quote below is the one I quoted to you with a commentary note when I posted the verse - the idea was to put it in context and pre-empt your reply below!! (I thought it was the one, you'd take most issue with, lol!!) It all comes back to the understanding. When you say 'no state exists', you have the idea that there is no dhamma, no reality (very Mahayana-ish?Mahayana-ish?). In the sutta, the Buddha is stressing, comy and as Nina and others are pointing out also)that such dhammas are empty of any atta. ..................................... NEW TG: Give me a break. LOL I said -- "No state exists, as its own thing." A very different statement than your characterization. I'm not convinced how clear anatta is to those who see "dhammas" as ultimate realities with their own characteristics. Not convinced at all. ...................................... I apologise if any offence was caused by my light-hearted feeble verses. None was intended. .......................................... NEW TG: When I go up against Abhidhamma Woman, I expect a tough go of it. ;-) TG OUT ................................................ oops - really out this time! #73957 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 7:39 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > ... > > H: > Nina, in a sense there is no table. But in another sense, in > terms of a variety of associated mental operations and experiences, > there is. > --------------- > > At first you say there is no table, and then you say there *is* a > table. But you can't have it both ways, surely. Ultimately, a table > can be existent or non-existent; it can't be both. If it could be > both then the term "ultimately" would have no meaning. > -------------------------------------- > Howard: > Ken, are you saying that you didn't understand my statement? You don't know what I > Mean by "in a sense"? I'm sorry. It will just have to stand on its own. > Hi Howard, Yes, we both know about conventional designations, and we do have a common understanding of them that 'stands on its own.' You, however, frequently introduce the idea of a "complex network of interrelated namas and rupas.' You seem to see this network as giving some concepts a degree of ultimate reality. Isn't that why you wrote: "Nina, in a sense there is no table. But in another sense, in terms of a variety of associated mental operations and experiences, there is"? Why else would you have written that? If you were not adding something to Nina's interpretation of concepts and realities (the one that stands on its own), there would have been no need to make such a statement. In the long run, I think you are locked into giving concepts a degree of reality. Like most Buddhists, you believe that the Buddha prescribed various conventional activities for the development of insight. Therefore, it seems to me, you *must* attribute an ultimately real value (property, characteristic) to those conventional activities. -------------------- <. . .> H: > > > Also, denying impermanence, affliction, and non-self to conventional objects must not allow for affirming permanence, satisfactoriness, and self with respect to them. > > > KH: > > That's unlikely to happen, isn't it? > > Howard: > Actually, there are folks who think of concepts as permanent! ------------------- Most folks, like me, see no problem in regarding a table as permanent. It will be there tomorrow, for example, or the next time I want to put something on it. I can't see any profound benefit in seeing it as impermanent, can you? If the three lakkhanas are attributed to concepts the profound meaning of those lakkhanas will be lost. A table is impermanent in the sense that it will decompose over the course of years, centuries or (if it is sealed in a vacuum) aeons. But that is not the meaning of anicca. Ken H #73958 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 9:34 pm Subject: Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) scottduncan2 Dear TG, Thanks for the reply, as you will see, I'm flagging in our discussion and may have to beg off. You'll see why below: NEW TG: "The 'Cause' of the process, IMO, is the Four Great Elements. This can be understood when the Four Great Element are understood as 'dynamic forces' rather than 'static things'. Hence, I see Heat, Cohesion, Expansion, and Extension as -- Volatile Energy, Inward Energy, Outward Energy, and Structural (Balanced) Energy; respectively. (The word 'energy' could be exchanged for 'movement' or 'momentum' or 'dynamics' or 'predominance' with no problem.)" Scott: Thanks for the summary. I'm afraid I can't see this view as being anywhere near Dhamma, I'm sorry to say, TG. The Four Great Elements are ruupa - materiality. I'm sorry to say that this view is pseudo-science - the view, mind you, TG, no offence. I don't quite know how to proceed with this... NEW TG: "The arising, changing, ceasing of phenomena IS conditionality...Interaction is impermanence in action...In the following four extracts, the Buddha points to contacting states or frictional states as a cause of impermanence..." Scott: A simile. These are similes, TG. Here are a few definitions pasted from googling the word 'simile': (1) a figure of speech that expresses a resemblance between things of different kinds (usually formed with `like' or `as') wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn (2) A comparison between two objects using the words "like" or "as" Ex: She was as mad as a rabid dog. www.moondance.org/2001/summer01/risingstars/literary.html (3) is a figure of speech in which two basically unlike things are compared using "like" or "as" : "My love is like a red, red rose." www.state.tn.us/education/ci/cistandards2001/la/cilaglossary.htm (4) a figure of speech in which one thing is directly likened to another www.nwlg.org/pages/resources/knowitall/resources/english.htm (5) A direct, expressed comparison between two things essentially unlike each other, but resembling each other in at least one way. In formal prose the simile is a device both of art and explanation, comparing the unfamiliar thing (to be explained) to some familiar thing (an object, event, process, etc.) known to the reader. There is no simile in the comparison, "My car is like your car," because the two objects are not "essentially unlike" each other. home.cfl.rr.com/eghsap/apterms.html (6)(sim-EH-lee): a simile is a type of figurative language, language that does not mean exactly what it says, that makes a comparison between two otherwise unalike objects or ideas by connecting them with the words "like" or "as." The reader can see a similar connection with the verbs resemble, compare and liken. Similes allow an author to emphasize a certain characteristic of an object by comparing that object to an unrelated object that is an example of that characteristic. ... www.uncp.edu/home/canada/work/allam/general/glossary.htm NEW TG: "...These passages indicate wearing away due to contact/friction: common sense knowledge at this level." Scott: I'm sorry, TG. Similes have been taken literally here. This view is unassailable due to its idiosyncracy. NEW TG: "Whatever arises, whatever changes, whatever ceases; is what's being discussed. The more we deal with "specific examples" in a discussion at this level, the more we bring delusion into play. I.E., I don't believe that "identifiable states, experiences, elements or aggregates" exist in their own right. As "relativities" yes, but not in their own right. So, talking about them as if they were "self contained things" is delusional. I'm not sure if this addresses what you had in mind." Scott: Thanks. I'm afraid this doesn't answer the question. Can you give one example of something that arises and falls away (let alone 'changes')? The statement: "The more we deal with 'specific examples' in a discussion at this level, the more we bring delusion into play" is simply not on, in my opinion. If there are no examples then there is nothing to discuss. If there are, then I'd be interested. No offence, TG, but the discussion is foundering here... NEW TG: "Phassa is a specific class of contacts dealing with the arising of consciousness. In the above quote, the words 'conjunction' and 'friction' are indicative of 'contact in general.' As can be seen from the above quote, if contemplated, ... it is this 'conjunction,' 'friction,' that cause the alteration and changes the fire-sticks. Hence proving my point that 'contact' (all types of contact) / interaction is responsible for altering phenomena. When the contact between the fire-sticks stops, the alteration generated by such contact also stops. (Of course there are contacts around all the time and the rate of change is dependent on the degree of contact.) This can be readily understood by carefully observing and contemplating anything's arising, changing, and ceasing factors. The remarks on feeling, in the above quote, show that it is exactly the same process.The above quote, you cited, is an excellent exemplification of Inter-Displacing Conditional Relativity....both in terms of the fire-sticks and feeling. The coming-together of things/forces results in displacement and alteration of what was previously there." Scott: Its a delicate thing to knock a guy's theory, TG. My apologies. Again, although creative, this theory comes nowhere near Dhamma as I've studied over the last year and a half. Thankfully this eliminates me as a credible critic and you can sail on. Nonetheless, the definition of 'phassa' above is totally fabricated - it is, perhaps, even completely original but does not conform to the definition that is standard, as far as I can see. It fails to hold water, in my opinion, due to its literality and concreteness. I'm speaking of the view, TG, not its author, so please don't take this personally. Me: "'In dependence on...' is 'pa.ticca', I think. This is (PTS PED): 'Pa.ticca...grounded on,on account of, concerning, because (with acc.)..." How would this be understood from within the proposed system?" NEW TG: "I'm not sure I understand you. Whatever can be identified as arising/arisen is supported by other conditions. In that sense it is 'in dependence on.'" Scott: But upon what is anything grounded, TG? This comes back to the lack of examples. A theory which refuses to specify referents while adopting terms which, normally, are about referents, is a theory about how to take a cubit of air, shape it with a water knife, burn it with a torch, and blow it to the moon. No offence, man. I'll sign off, but I'll bet this finishes the discussion... Again, I'll remind you that I am definitely speaking of the views expressed, and not the man. Sincerely, Scott. #73959 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 10:04 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Serious about Dhamma? Serious about one's defilements? jonoabb Hi Phil Replying now to your PS about MN 19. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > > Hi Jon ... > Ph: I will listen to Bhikkhu Bodhi on MN 19 before I listen to > you or AS on it. Is it not relevant because it is about the > bodhisatta before his enlightenment. In an hour long talk > encouraging us to apply the sutta to our lives BB doesn't say > anything like that. First a correction. I didn't say the sutta isn't relevant. I made the observation that since it was talking about the period before the Buddha's enlightenment, any 'practice' being described would not be the practice of satipatthana. I would be very surprised if this contradicts anything said by BB because it is a point he would be very well aware of, even if he does not specifically allude to it. > The sutta means what it says, according to him. > We train the mind to drop unwholesome thoughts and train it to stick > to wholesome thoughts, to a certain extent before droppping them as > well. I am more interested in the former. As to the idea that the sutta tells us to train the mind to drop unwholesome thoughts, that is an inference to be drawn rather than something expressly stated in the sutta. From memory what the sutta says is that (a) the Bodhisatta was able to identify each mind-state as it arose as being either kusala or akusala and (b) as he did this he also noticed that the akusala tended to fall away and not continue. To my understanding, this describes already-developed panna of the level of samatha, panna that has been developed to a very high degree. It is not so much a description of a practice (as that term tends to be used nowadays) as the exercise of skills that had already been developed. > The "don't go there" aspect > of Dhamma that is undeniable. If this is not the deeper > understanding of the sutta, so be it, for now. Staying in touch with > people like you at DSG will keep me in touch with a deeper > interpretation that might become relevant to me someday. I appreciate (and support) your effort to avoid grossly unwholesome conduct. I appreciate even more your interest in the development of insight, because without the latter the former is a losing battle in the long run. Jon #73960 From: TGrand458@... Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 7:27 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) TGrand458@... Hi Scott In a message dated 7/2/2007 10:34:29 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: Dear TG, Thanks for the reply, as you will see, I'm flagging in our discussion and may have to beg off. You'll see why below: ................................... NEW TG: That's cool. I was going to quit responding as of last night as well, but because your questions today seemed sincere, I decided to invest the time. .................................... NEW TG: "The 'Cause' of the process, IMO, is the Four Great Elements. This can be understood when the Four Great Element are understood as 'dynamic forces' rather than 'static things'. Hence, I see Heat, Cohesion, Expansion, and Extension as -- Volatile Energy, Inward Energy, Outward Energy, and Structural (Balanced) Energy; respectively. (The word 'energy' could be exchanged for 'movement' or 'momentum' or 'dynamics' or 'predominance' with no problem.)" Scott: Thanks for the summary. I'm afraid I can't see this view as being anywhere near Dhamma, I'm sorry to say, TG. The Four Great Elements are ruupa - materiality. I'm sorry to say that this view is pseudo-science - the view, mind you, TG, no offence. I don't quite know how to proceed with this... ........................................... NEW TG: No problem. Although I see evidence in the Suttas to support my view, I agree that it is not stated in the suttas in such a way as I state it. And I do not claim the Buddha taught it. Just wish I could get the same honestly from those claiming "ultimate realities with their own characteristics." LOL ........................................................... NEW TG: "The arising, changing, ceasing of phenomena IS conditionality.conditionality...Interaction is impermanence in following four extracts, the Buddha points to contacting states or frictional states as a cause of impermanence.fri Scott: A simile. These are similes, TG. Here are a few definitions pasted from googling the word 'simile': ............................................ NEW TG: When the Buddha says -- “Imposthume, brethren, is a term for body, of the four elements compounded, of parents sprung, on rice and gruel fed, impermanent, of a nature to be worn away, pounded away, broken and scattered.â€? (The Buddha . . . Book of the Kindred Sayings (KS), (Samyutta Nikaya), vol. 4, pg. 50) You view this as a simile? Don't the other examples I site show examples of impermanence which was the point being discussed? Oh well. .................................................. (1) a figure of speech that expresses a resemblance between things of different kinds (usually formed with `like' or `as') wordnet.princeton.wordnet.pwordn (2) A comparison between two objects using the words "like" or "as" Ex: She was as mad as a rabid dog. www.moondance.www.moondwww.moondwww.moondancwww.moondwww. (3) is a figure of speech in which two basically unlike things are compared using "like" or "as" : "My love is like a red, red rose." www.state.tn.www.state.tn.www.state.tn.: a simile is a type of figurativ that does not mean exactly what it says, that makes a comparison between two otherwise unalike objects or ideas by connecting them with the words "like" or "as." The reader can see a similar connection with the verbs resemble, compare and liken. Similes allow an author to emphasize a certain characteristic of an object by comparing that object to an unrelated object that is an example of that characteristic. ... www.uncp.edu/www.uncp.eduwww.uncp.edwww.uncp.edu/' 'friction,' that cause the alteration a fire-sticks. Hence proving my point that 'contact' (all types of contact) / interaction is responsible for altering phenomena. When the contact between the fire-sticks stops, the alteration generated by such contact also stops. (Of course there are contacts around all the time and the rate of change is dependent on the degree of contact.) This can be readily understood by carefully observing and contemplating anything's arising, changing, and ceasing factors. The remarks on feeling, in the above quote, show that it is exactly the same process.The above quote, you cited, is an excellent exemplification of Inter-Displacing Conditional Relativity..exemplifi terms of the fire-sticks and feeling. The coming-together of things/forces results in displacement and alteration of what was previously there." Scott: Its a delicate thing to knock a guy's theory, TG. My apologies. Again, although creative, this theory comes nowhere near Dhamma as I've studied over the last year and a half. Thankfully this eliminates me as a credible critic and you can sail on. Nonetheless, the definition of 'phassa' above is totally fabricated - it is, perhaps, even completely original but does not conform to the definition that is standard, as far as I can see. It fails to hold water, in my opinion, due to its literality and concreteness. I'm speaking of the view, TG, not its author, so please don't take this personally. ......................................... NEW TG: Phassa is the coming together of sense object, sense base, and accompanying consciousness. What do you think phassa is? The only line in my above paragraph that deals with phassa is the first sentence. The rest of it deals with "ordinary contact" as understood by most English speakers. "My" theory? My goodness. Here, from Nyanatiloka's Dictionary -- "In M. 18 it is thus defined: "Dependent on the eye and the forms, eye-consciousness arises. The coming together of the three is sense-impression (phassa)." The above is what I would claim to be exactly what phassa is. I hope that puts aside your abhorrence to my extreme theory. ;-) Am I to understand you've only been studying the Dhamma for a year and a half? If so, I find your understanding remarkably good. I'm thinking that you must have been at it much longer though. In my view, I would expect most folks need to read and reread the suttas over and over again for 10 years (at least 5) before they would have a good solid outlook regarding its contents and sensibility. I've been at it for closer to 27 years, but I'm not very bright so that explains a lot. ................................................... Me: "'In dependence on...' is 'pa.ticca', I think. This is (PTS PED): 'Pa.ticca...'Pa.ticca...grounded on,on account of, concerning, b acc.)..." How would this be understood from within the proposed system?" NEW TG: "I'm not sure I understand you. Whatever can be identified as arising/arisen is supported by other conditions. In that sense it is 'in dependence on.'" Scott: But upon what is anything grounded, TG? This comes back to the lack of examples. A theory which refuses to specify referents while adopting terms which, normally, are about referents, is a theory about how to take a cubit of air, shape it with a water knife, burn it with a torch, and blow it to the moon. No offence, man. I'll sign off, but I'll bet this finishes the discussion..b ......................................... NEW TG: Yea, You've offended me to the max now dammit. I'm not taking this sitting down. (Well, actually I am.) LOL Just kidding. Not upset. I only avoid talking about the elements and aggregates ( and BTW, I talk about them all the time) because in this group a lot of folks over substantiate them IMO. Therefore, when I get asked to be very specific about them, I smell a rat. ;-) I.E., I suspect someone is trying to make a case about Ultimate realities with their own characteristics. What THE BUDDHA said about the 5 aggregates is -- after careful investigation they would appear as hollow. Connected Discourse, page 951. I'm not sure...does the Buddha give you the "grounding" your looking for? ................................................................ Again, I'll remind you that I am definitely speaking of the views expressed, and not the man. ................................................. NEW TG: So what are you saying? My views are utterly stupid but that doesn't reflect on me? LOL The views ARE the man dammit, I'm still pissed! LOL This whole post has been just a simile. I'm not sure how, but I'm sure you can figure it out. So, there you go. ;-) TG OUT ................................................... #73961 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 1:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) nilovg Hi TG, Op 3-jul-2007, om 2:50 heeft TGrand458@... het volgende geschreven: > From what I can > gather, we then have three types of conditions fulfilling the same > basic > function...proximity, contiguity, and absence. ---------- N: Right you are. --------- > > TG: Nevertheless, to say the absence of something is a condition > for the arising > of something is directly contradicted by the formula of Dependent > Arising... > This being, that is. etc. --------- N: This is in short. In the suttanta conditons are not classified fully and in detail. So it is with the khandhas, not classified fully like in the Abhidhamma. -------- > > The "progressive bubble citta theory" with cittas popping on and > off one > after another is not one I accept or reject verbatim. I would deal > with it as > if it were a theory and not deal with it as if it were absolute > fact. When we > overlay the 24 (22) or (21) conditional relations on this citta > outlook, we > are laying theory on top of theory. > > In my view, if one citta ceases before it conditions/meets the > following > citta, it does not "live" as an affective factor to actually do any > conditioning. Conditions do "conditioning" when they meet or > combine qualities. By not > meeting, they cannot condition. -------- N: Yes, they can. If seeing had not fallen away there could not be hearing. There can only be the experience of one object at a time. BTW, I appreciate all the sutta texts you gave to Scott. it shows that you have read a lot in all those twentyseven years. A pity about: paramattha dhammas which have their own characteristics. You know what I mean. Perhaps you see something behind it that is too much. Seeing is different from hearing. Different characteristics. No entities, no substantialism. Nothing of the kind. They all go, go, go. Nina. #73962 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 1:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What is the wrong view? (References from the MN anthology) nilovg Hi Larry, But then faith has to be accompanied by understanding that begins to investigate realities, even though understanding has not reached yet the level of vipassana, that is, the realization of a stage of insight. Nina. Op 3-jul-2007, om 1:38 heeft LBIDD@... het volgende geschreven: > L: Still, I would maintain that faith without insight constitutes a > level of mundane right view. #73963 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 1:23 am Subject: Sammaadi.t.thi studycorner. nilovg Hi Larry, ---------- L: Hmm, this is complicated. It looks like the pleasant feeling that arises when I hear "good" music is the pleasant feeling that accompanies investigating consciousness, or possibly a pleasant feeling that accompanies registration and conditions craving for becoming (continuing) in a following mind-door process. ------- N: All those cittas pass so very rapidly, do not try to catch feeling that is vipaaka. It is more likely that the pleasant feeling you notice accompanies lobha-muulacittas. --------- L: What resultant conscousness does unpleasant feeling accompany when I hear "bad" music? -------- N: None. Unpleasant feeling can only accompany two types of citta: the two types of dosamuulacitta. -------- L: Seems like it must be registration again. Does registration have the same feeling as the previous javana? ------- N: Impossible to find out. These two types of vipaaka pass too quickly. It leads to confusion if one tries to catch them. The Expositor gives many details, but we cannot find out about the feeling now. It states that if the javanacittas are accompanied by unhappy feeling, the registration could not be accompanied by pleasant feeling, but by indifferent feeling. But here are far too many details. ------- L: In the case of "bad" music it seems that the resultant neutral feeling of ear consciousness as well as receiving and investigation condition dosa with unpleasant feeling (and desire for its cessation as subtext) followed by registration with unpleasant feeling. So it must be a mix of kamma and vipaka feeling that I experience on the occasion of hearing bad music. But it is only the resultant unpleasant feeling that conditions desire for cessation. Right? -------- N: Dosa is conditioned by accumulations. The music Phil and Scott like conditions dosa for me. As to resultant unpleasant feeling, see above, it does n0t exist. Nina. #73964 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 1:48 am Subject: funerals nilovg Dear Connie, your post is very helpful, I like your approach. N: I had trouble to swallow: wishing well, there are no people. ---------- C:) everything is so straightforward. lol. who understands? moment by moment, story by story. hodcarriers and levitators all;) mighty bricklayers against the wall; --------- N: We have to consider the moments and mostly these escape us. Wishing well, and immediately attachment to the person to whom we are wishing well. The laying of the bricks: building up the wall, that is: the cycle of birth. These bricks have to be torn down! Only by right understanding. ------ C: We don't even know how another might use a gift or whether it would even be acceptable; it is out of our hands, even if we are still attached to it, looking for results. Kusala may be but a drop, but good has already accumulated and in our lively house of cards, the dealer pays out, more or less considerate of the greater odds whenever one's best wishes show against a hand of ill-will ... -------- N: We are often looking for results, but the gift is out of our hands and even still attached to it. And best wishes can be met with with illwill, who can tell? All these are different cittas arising because of conditions, no persons there that can be subject to control. -------- C: Deceivers ever are the thoughts of men, Fain for the haunts where Maara finds his prey; And running ever on from birth to birth, To the dread circle bound - a witless world. (164) pruitt: 164. Since the mind indeed is like an illusion by which blind ordinary people are deceived. Being under the influence of Maara, they do not pass beyond continued existence. Therefore it is said: deceived by mind, etc. _____ N: We are deceived all the time, being ignorant of the different cittas. Thank you, Nina. #73965 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 1:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] concepts. was: dhammas and impermanence. nilovg Hi Howard, I appreciate your post. Perhaps we have different ideas about looking and seeing. You add: with a well cultivated mind. Here we have different ways, I know what you mean. Nina. Op 2-jul-2007, om 18:55 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > 'Look' does not clarify very much. Shall we say: understand it. It > is understanding that has to be developed. This leads to letting go, > to detachment. > ------------------------------ > Howard: > Without looking and seeing, with a well cultivated mind, of course, > there can be no > understanding, at least not the understanding that frees. #73966 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 5:18 am Subject: Conditions, Ch 5, no 7 nilovg Dear friends, Some of the phenomena which are related by conascence-condition are also related by mutuality-condition (aññamañña-paccaya). They condition one another reciprocally while they arise simultaneously. Since the realities involved condition one another mutually, each of them can be in turn conditioning dhamma (paccaya) and conditioned dhamma (paccayupanna dhamma). We read in the “Visuddhimagga” (XVII, 78): A state that assists by means of mutual arousing and consolidating is a mutuality-condition, as three sticks of a tripod give each other consolidating support. Three sticks which are leaning against each other at the upper ends mutually support one another. Evenso the realities involved in mutuality-condition condition one another reciprocally. There are three classes of phenomena to which this condition pertains. As to the first class, the four nåma-kkhandhas which condition one another by way of conascence, also condition one another by way of mutuality. They support and consolidate one another. As to the second class, the four Great Elements which are related to one another by conascence-condition are also related to one another by way of mutuality-condition. Solidity, cohesion, temperature and motion which arise together condition one another reciprocally and give each other mutual support. As to the third class, the patisandhi-citta with the accompanying cetasikas and the heart-base arising simultaneously condition one another by way of mutuality. As we have seen, at the moment of rebirth kamma conditions, apart from the group of rúpas with the heart-base, two other groups, namely the group with the body-base and the group with sex. There is no relation of mutuality between the latter two groups and the patisandhi-citta. The other classes of phenomena which are related by conascence are not related by mutuality. The rúpa produced by citta is conditioned by that citta by way of conascence, but, as we have seen, there is no relation of mutuality. That rúpa does not, in its turn, condition citta, it does not consolidate citta by way of mutuality-condition. The four Great Elements are conascent-condition for the derived rúpas, but there is no relation of mutuality; the derived rúpas do not consolidate the four Great Elements by way of mutuality- condition. Visible object or sound, which are derived rúpas, cannot arise without the four Great Elements, but the four Great Elements are not dependant on these rúpas. Thus we see that phenomena which are related by mutuality also are related by conascence, but that not all phenomena which are related by conascence are also related by mutuality. ******* Nina. #73967 From: connie Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 5:22 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (61) nichiconn dear friends, 8. A.t.thakanipaato 1. Siisuupacaalaatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa part 5 On verse: 199. "Kaala.m kaala.m bhavaa bhava.m, sakkaayasmi.m purakkhataa; aviitivattaa sakkaaya.m, jaatimara.nasaarino. 199. again and again, from existence to existence, [are] exposed to individuality, not passing beyond individuality, going to birth and death. txt: Tattha kaala.m kaalanti ta.m ta.m kaala.m. Bhavaa bhavanti bhavato bhava.m. Sakkaayasminti khandhapa~ncake. Purakkhataati purakkhaarakaarino. Ida.m vutta.m hoti- maara, tayaa vuttaa taavati.msaadayo devaa bhavato bhava.m upagacchantaa aniccataadi-anekaadiinavaakule sakkaaye pati.t.thitaa, tasmaa tasmi.m bhave uppattikaale, vemajjhakaale, pariyosaanakaaleti tasmi.m tasmi.m kaale sakkaayameva purakkhatvaa .thitaa. Tato eva aviitivattaa sakkaaya.m nissara.naabhimukhaa ahutvaa sakkaayatiirameva anuparidhaavantaa jaatimara.nasaarino raagaadiihi anugatattaa punappuna.m jaatimara.nameva anussaranti, tato na vimuccantiiti. Pruitt: 199. There, again and again (kaala.m kaala.m) means: at various times (ta.m ta.m kaala.m). From existence to existence (bhavaa bhava.m) means: from existence to existence (bhavato bhava.m). Individuality means: the group of five aggregates. [Are] exposed to (purakkhataa)* means: being put in front of (purakkhaara-kaarino). This is what is being said: "The Taavati.msa devas, etc, which are spoken of by you, Maara, go from existence to existence, established in an individuality that is entangled in many dangers like impermanence, etc. Therefore, at the time of rebirth in that existence, when [they are] in mid-life, and at the end [of their life], at every period [of life], they honour (purakkhatvaa) individuality. Afterwards, not passing beyond individuality, not facing towards release, running round and round on the shore of individuality, going to birth and death, pursuing birth and death again and again because of going after passion, etc, they are not released from this. *On this word see EV I, p.130 ad v. 37, and EV II, p. xxxv 37 (in a list of words Dhammapaala misunderstood) and p. 97 ad v. 199. ===tbc, connie. #73968 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 5:25 am Subject: Listening to the Dhamma, Ch 4, no 6. nilovg Dear friends, Lobha is very deceitful and lures us all the time. We may try to select objects of awareness, but that is wrong practice. Only the sotåpanna (streamwinner), the person who has attained the first stage of enlightenment, has eradicated wrong practice. Paññå must become very keen, very refined, so that it understands any reality which appears. In this way paññå can realise that what arises because of conditions is non-self. We may know in theory what kusala is and what its benefit, what akusala is and what its disadvantage. However, if the difference between nåma and rúpa has not been penetrated by paññå at the first stage of vipassanå, the characteristics of kusala and of akusala cannot be clearly understood, and therefore the knowledge of the benefit of kusala and of the disadvantage of akusala can only be superficial. We do not clearly know yet the nature of nåma. This should not discourage us, because even when paññå is not accomplished to the degree of vipassanå ñåna, there can be a beginning of investigation of kusala citta and of akusala citta when they appear. The teaching of the pariññås shows us that the development of paññå is very intricate and that paññå has to become keener and keener so that it can penetrate more and more the true nature of nåma and rúpa and realize the four noble Truths at the attainment of enlightenment. Acharn Sujin explained that it takes courage to face the truth. In theory we know that there is in the ultimate sense no self, no dear persons, no husband, wife or children, but theoretical understanding is different from paññå which directly realizes the truth of non-self. In the ultimate sense there are no people around us, we are alone with nåma and rúpa. The self we love above all is only nåma and rúpa. Without paññå one has aversion about being alone with nåma and rúpa. Acharn Sujin exhorted us to have courage and gladness about the truth. In the suttas, for example in the “Ratthapåla Sutta” (Middle Length Sayings II, no. 82) we read that when brahmans and householders came to see the Buddha, “the Lord gladdened, roused, incited and delighted them with a talk on dhamma.” Even at the stage of the first vipassanå ñåna one must be brave, because at those moments there is no self, no world, there are no persons, there are only nåma and rúpa appearing one at a time. In order to attain the first stage of enlightenment, the stage of the sotåpanna, we should have courage and perseverance to develop paññå so that all stages of vipassanå ñåna can be reached. But all those who attained enlightenment had to begin with listening to the Dhamma, in order to have right understanding of satipatthåna. ****** Nina. #73969 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 5:30 am Subject: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) scottduncan2 Dear TG, I appreciate your reply. Thanks for your patience. Very cool. TG: "Am I to understand you've only been studying the Dhamma for a year and a half? If so, I find your understanding remarkably good. I'm thinking that you must have been at it much longer though." Scott: No, not long, thanks for the kind word. Let's see. It dawned on me to search out the Dhamma about a month after my wife died, which was in October of '04. I meandered through the confusing plethora of doctrines and schools of thought for maybe eight months to a year - mostly feeling my way. So I guess its closer to two years, leaving out the pre-Theravada time - three if you count it. TG: "In my view, I would expect most folks need to read and reread the suttas over and over again for 10 years (at least 5) before they would have a good solid outlook regarding its contents and sensibility. I've been at it for closer to 27 years, but I'm not very bright so that explains a lot." Scott: Yeah, I can really say I'm a beginner and have a lot to read. You are so bright. NEW TG: "When the Buddha says -- “Imposthume, brethren, is a term for body, of the four elements compounded, of parents sprung, on rice and gruel fed, impermanent, of a nature to be worn away, pounded away, broken and scattered.â€? (The Buddha . . . Book of the Kindred Sayings (KS), (Samyutta Nikaya), vol. 4, pg. 50) You view this as a simile?" Scott: I've got Bh. Bodhi's translation. I think its the explanation of a simile given earlier in the sutta - the one about the king in the frontier city: "...I have made up this simile, bhikkhu, in order to convey a meaning. This is the meaning here: 'The city': this is a designation for this body consisting of the four great elements, originating from mother and father, built up out of boiled rice and gruel, subject to impermanence, to being worn and rubbed away, to breaking apart and dispersal..." Upamaa kho myaaya.m bhikkhu kataa atthassa vi~n~naapanaaya, aya~ncevettha attho: nagaranti kho bhikkhu imasseta.m caatummahaabhutikassa kaayassa adhivacana.m. Maataapettikasambhavassa odanakummaasuupacayassa aniccucchaadana parimaddana bhedana vidda.msana dhammassa. Scott: I'll continue later, TG, the laundry in the drier is dry, the kids need rousing, etc. I want to examine the sutta quote in more detail. Thanks for your continued patience. But be careful: TG: "...I'm afraid your question is a 'set-up' headed in that direction. Hopefully I'm wrong." Scott: When you least expect it - expect it. Armed with the might of three years experience I will pounce without a moment's warning... Sincerely, Scott. #73970 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 5:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Theriigaathaa - Sisters (61) nilovg Dear Connie, this has to be checked. Where? If a translator says that a commentator misunderstood I tend to have mistrust. Nina. Op 3-jul-2007, om 14:22 heeft connie het volgende geschreven: > On this word see EV I, p.130 ad v. 37, and EV II, p. xxxv 37 (in a > list > of words Dhammapaala misunderstood) #73971 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 7:19 am Subject: There is No Abhidhammika Perspective In Theravada Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence abhidhammika Dear TG, Nina, Connie, Scott Duncan, Robert K, How are you? I haven't followed many threads, including this one. So someone may have already written what I am about to write. 1. First, there is no Abhidhammika's perspective in Theravada. The followers of Thravada accept only the Buddha's perspective. Abhidhamma is only a mode of teaching among many others, and can be spotted in every Nikaaya. I consult Vinaya Pi.taka from time to time to get information for abhidhamma. The Buddha's every discourse (Suttam) is to teach partial aspects of Abhidhamma, sometimes briefly, and sometimes more elaborately than Abhidhamma Pi.taka undertakes. As such, the Abhidhamma perspective is the very perspective of the Buddha. 2. Three characteristics are to distinguish paramattha dhammas from non-paramattha dhammas. They are tools for identifying and or defining dhammas. 3. Paramattha dhammas happens or (exists in the case of nibbaana) while three characteristics are discovered or observed to describe how the paramattha dhammas happen or exists. You wrote: "Then again, maybe this isn't at all correct understanding of the Abhidhammika position." You are already wrong to have asserted the non-existence thing such as the Abhidhammika position. We can re-write your above statement as follows. "Then again, maybe this isn't at all correct understanding of the Buddha's position." I agree. :-) With regards, Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@... wrote: Hi Nina, Sarah, Jon, Howard, Herman, James, Larry and the Rest... Something hit me like a bolt of lightning last night. It occurred to me that when the Abhidhammikas talk about Dhammas "arising and immediately falling away," that it is an inference based on time. I.E., "the present moment" arises and immediately falls away. Therefore, all that constitutes the present moment must also arise and immediately fall way...from this vantage point. This outlook would explain a number of things. First of all, it explains a lack of being comfortable of including the Suttas description of "changing while persisting" as part of the arising and ceasing description. "The present" could not change while persist." It would support the idea of "ultimately real" dhammas. For only the present is "ultimate real"...from this vantage point. It supports the intense focus on "mindfulness of the present moment" as the "heart" of their practice. However, I'm dubious of this conclusion because it would be a relatively easy thing to explain and I don't recall getting this explanation from Nina or Sarah during our many conversations on the subject. It also has it own problems...such as -- how can there be 17 progressive present moments of consciousness for one present moment of rupa? Also, how can the ceasing of a state be a condition for the arising of following state? (In reference to Abhidhammikas view of consciousness.) This latter idea is in direct conflict with the Buddha formula of D.O. -- This being, that is; with the arising of this, that arises; this not being, this is not; with the ceasing of this, that ceases. There are other problems as well. Anyway, if this hypothesis is right, it would mean that the Abhidhammikas have mixed the D.O. principles of the Suttas with the time oriented teachings: past, present, future, of the Suttas. There is certainly a certain logic in it. But, the former (D.O.principles) is designed to explain the structure and mechanics of phenomena, the later (past, present, future) is designed to express a sense of impermanence and the futility of attachment to the present. The problem with it though is ... it falls short of a comprehensive view and account of the D.O. principles/mechanics of phenomena. Then again, maybe this isn't at all correct understanding of the Abhidhammika position. Comments? TG #73972 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 7:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and TG) - -----Original Message----- From: Nina van Gorkom To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 4:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) Hi TG, I just like to explain a little more on absence condition. It is different from what you think of as absence in conventional sense. It has a very precise meaning: Nina. Op 1-jul-2007, om 19:01 heeft TGrand458@... het volgende geschreven: > As I understand the 24 Conditional Relations, two of them are > overlap so > there is really 22. I also have a problem with "Absence Condition" > because it > breaks the Buddha's principle of "This being, that is, etc." That > is, it is > not the absence of something that conditions the way things are, it > is the > remaining "positive" conditions that condition the way things are. > It is only a > conceptual contrivance which thinks that "the absence" of something > conditions states. For example, lets say I lost someone I dearly > loved and was > feeling suffering due to it. Its actually the present attachment > and mental > associations that are conditioning the suffering. Not the absence. > Anyway, > perhaps a picky point but seeing "conditionality" as correctly as > possible is of > great importance IMO. ================================= Absence condition (or what might be called "cessation condition") makes a lot of sense to me. It is readily and frequently observed how the cessation of a phenomenon is an event that serves as condition for other phenomena. Also, even an absence itself, not just a cessation, can be seen as a requisite condition, because in the presence of certain phenomena, certain other phenomena may be unable to exist, and thus the absence of the former is requisite for the latter. With metta, Howard cannot #73973 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 8:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Death - just like now! (Alan Driver's funeral) [5 upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Sarah) - -----Original Message----- Dear Sarah, thank you for this post and also for your Ecard. I understand what you say about laugthter, would like to hear Howard's opinion. I found in Asia that people sometimes laugh when we would not expect it. For instance when they speak about an accident. As you say: < in such contrast to the seriousness and sombre tones we usually find at Western funerals. > As she said:< What would you prefer? That I cry as I talk about the impermanence of dhammas?'.> We cannot help others by dosa, by crying. I had trouble to swallow: wishing well, there are no people. Here I can feel with Howard that we also have our social life, and it is appreciated when people wish well. When the citta is metta, then the object is a being, and metta is praised by the Buddha. When there is wrong view or conceit, it is a different matter. In between metta there are bound to be akusala cittas. It is all mixed. As Connie wrote to me: Helping can be done with wrong view and conceit: I know better, I want to help him. He and me: often conceit. It seems that we can hardly do any kusala. Howard, Ramesh, Han? Opinions please and examples from daily life, that would be helpful to me. Nina. Op 2-jul-2007, om 14:19 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > I'm just trying to be as accurate as possible and her good-humour, > light > and joyous tone (and that of others, as is very common at Thai > funerals) > was very much part of the atmosphere and discussions and in such > contrast > to the seriousness and sombre tones we usually find at Western > funerals > (and the mood in which we arrived). Of course, it's not a frivolous > laughter, but I know you both sometimes find her laughter > disturbing in > the discussions at the Foundation too, as you mentioned before. > Different > accumulations. > > Sometime I asked her why she always laughs when she talks about > 'how bad > dhammas are' and she replied by saying: 'it's by conditions. What > would > you prefer? That I cry as I talk about the impermanence of dhammas?' > (laughing again!). > > It always makes me smile. > > I heard her say on an old tape today (to me): > > "Don't disturb yourself by thinking about concepts and stories. When > there's understanding (of paramattha dhammas), there's no > disturbance at > all." > > I find this all so helpful as I indicated in the 'seriousness' vs > 'sacca' > extract. Any situation, any time, there are just dhammas, 'just > like now'! ======================================== Nina, I don't have many words of wisdom (LOL!) to offer with regard to laughing in the context of sad or distressing circumstances. Perhaps it is my "Jewish identity" that conditions my attitude, but I DO see laughter, or at least ironic smiling, as an appropriate response. The extent of dukkha in all our lives is, if looked at in a certain way, almost comical. By seeing the "craziness" of it all and laughing at that we may be able to soften our heart, loosen our grasping, and permit love and ease to come to the fore. With metta, Howard #73974 From: TGrand458@... Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 4:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) TGrand458@... In a message dated 7/3/2007 8:56:42 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, upasaka@... writes: Absence condition (or what might be called "cessation condition") makes a lot of sense to me. It is readily and frequently observed how the cessation of a phenomenon is an event that serves as condition for other phenomena. Also, even an absence itself, not just a cessation, can be seen as a requisite condition, because in the presence of certain phenomena, certain other phenomena may be unable to exist, and thus the absence of the former is requisite for the latter. With metta, Howard Hi Howard I understand what you mean. IMO, though, its the "remaining" conditions are what are doing the conditioning. The absence of something, as a condition, seems like conceptual subjective perspective. For example, if there is an absence of one leg of a tripod, the tripod will fall down. I don't view "the absence" of the tripod leg as being the condition for falling down, but rather the gravity, the remaining tripod configuration, etc. Now, the actual "positive" forces at play that may have taken one tripod away, those "actual/positive" conditions I would consider a condition for the tripods imbalance and resulting falling. But not merely the absence of something. TG #73975 From: connie Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 10:45 am Subject: Re: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (61) nichiconn Dear Nina, I quite agree & hoped someone else might look, but I don't have Norman's Elders' Verses. I'm curious as to the entire "list of words" and why the translator thinks he knows better than Dhammapaala. It ruffles my feathers & I actually mean "how the translator dare think". Rueful grin. Am I too dogmatic to have feathers? I looked in PED a bit around purakkhataa, but I don't see where there's a problem. ... [Are] exposed to (purakkhataa)* means: being put in front of (purakkhaara-kaarino) ... they honour (purakkhatvaa) individuality. ... We're all just little self worshippers. We honour that more than truth. It is humbling. We are taught that the dhamma is our life, but we have yet to learn to read. connie. this has to be checked. Where? If a translator says that a commentator misunderstood I tend to have mistrust. Nina. > On this word see EV I, p.130 ad v. 37, and EV II, p. xxxv 37 (in a list > of words Dhammapaala misunderstood) #73976 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 10:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Death - just like now! (Alan Driver's funeral) [5 nilovg Hi Howard, thank you for giving your opinion. To see it all more in a relative way is better; not so deadly serious, which is not helpful. Nina. Op 3-jul-2007, om 17:12 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > The > extent of dukkha in all our lives is, if looked at in a certain > way, almost comical. By seeing > the "craziness" of it all and laughing at that we may be able to > soften our heart, loosen > our grasping, and permit love and ease to come to the fore. #73977 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 10:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) nilovg Hi TG, I think this will not do. Absence does not mean: there never was. It is past and the past can work on the present. Nina. Op 3-jul-2007, om 17:58 heeft TGrand458@... het volgende geschreven: > For example, if there is an absence of one leg of a tripod, the > tripod will > fall down. #73978 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 11:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] There is No Abhidhammika Perspective In Theravada Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence nilovg Dear suan, thank you very much for your post and for joining in. Nina. Op 3-jul-2007, om 16:19 heeft abhidhammika het volgende geschreven: > The Buddha's every discourse > (Suttam) is to teach partial aspects of Abhidhamma, sometimes > briefly, and sometimes more elaborately than Abhidhamma Pi.taka > undertakes. As such, the Abhidhamma perspective is the very > perspective of the Buddha. #73979 From: TGrand458@... Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 7:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) TGrand458@... Hi Nina In a message dated 7/3/2007 2:06:25 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi TG, Op 3-jul-2007, om 2:50 heeft _TGrand458@..._ (mailto:TGrand458@...) het volgende geschreven: > From what I can > gather, we then have three types of conditions fulfilling the same > basic > function...proximit function...proximit > TG: Nevertheless, to say the absence of something is a condition > for the arising > of something is directly contradicted by the formula of Dependent > Arising... > This being, that is. etc. --------- N: This is in short. In the suttanta conditons are not classified fully and in detail. So it is with the khandhas, not classified fully like in the Abhidhamma. ......................................... NEW TG: Its a principle that applies to all of conditionality IMO. Re: This being, that is, etc. ..................................... -------- > > The "progressive bubble citta theory" with cittas popping on and > off one > after another is not one I accept or reject verbatim. I would deal > with it as > if it were a theory and not deal with it as if it were absolute > fact. When we > overlay the 24 (22) or (21) conditional relations on this citta > outlook, we > are laying theory on top of theory. > > In my view, if one citta ceases before it conditions/meets the > following > citta, it does not "live" as an affective factor to actually do any > conditioning. Conditions do "conditioning" when they meet or > combine qualities. By not > meeting, they cannot condition. -------- N: Yes, they can. If seeing had not fallen away there could not be hearing. There can only be the experience of one object at a time. ........................................................ NEW TG: Attention shifts to the predominant contact. If I am watching something intently, then I hear a big crash, attention will shift to the new predominant experience (the crash sound.) It is not the absence of seeing that conditioned paying attention to the sound. Its the impact of the sound that conditioned paying attention to the sound. Positive factors condition, not absences. True, the lack of attention to the sight happened in conjunction (or in contiguity) with paying attention to the sound. But it was not the lack of paying attention to the sight which conditioned paying attention to the sound. I know where you're coming from, I just think its technically inaccurate and in conflict with a fundamental and important principle that the Buddha laid down. Other than that, I see no problem with it. ;-) ............................................................. BTW, I appreciate all the sutta texts you gave to Scott. it shows that you have read a lot in all those twentyseven years. A pity about: paramattha dhammas which have their own characteristics. You know what I mean. ............................................ NEW TG: I know exactly what you mean! ;-) .............................................. Perhaps you see something behind it that is too much. ........................................... NEW TG: Yes. ........................................... Seeing is different from hearing. Different characteristics. No entities, no substantialism. Nothing of the kind. They all go, go, go. Nina. ................................... TG OUT #73980 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 11:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Death - just like now! (Alan Driver's funeral) [5] nilovg Dear Sarah and Ramesh, Ramesh, I very much appreciated all your reactions, such as your reaction to Kh Sujin's saying: right understanding saves our life. I looked at the last sentence: That’s why we need more understanding of realities - the demarcation of absolute truth and the conventional truth. We have to know the difference. We mostly think of conventional truth, we always did from our youth. but now we learn more about paramattha dhammas, absolute truth. This gives us a different outlook on life and death. Then we shall come to understand that death is just like now. Nina. Op 28-jun-2007, om 14:21 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > KS: One lives only in one's own world of seeing and hearing and > thinking. > One should realize this, not just thinking of 'waste' and 'wasting' > and > 'the loss and things' like that. It doesn't help. > > S: I think people spend a lot of time speculating about other lives. > > KS: That’s why we need more understanding of realities - the > demarcation > of absolute truth and the conventional truth. #73981 From: connie Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 11:44 am Subject: thank you card from omak nichiconn Dear Jon and Sarah, Thank you for the books and Clown's lovely card in blues and browns depicting a "Ceremonial goodbye to those who have left the world to merge with ashes" in Varanasi. The perfect 'adventitious embellishment' to keep in the blue book of Cetasikas. (Vism VI, 88: ...For a living body is just as foul...). Mom started reading Buddha's Path first thing. peace, connie. in a court (not yama's?): are you the decedent? are you his predecessor? #73982 From: TGrand458@... Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 8:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) TGrand458@... Hi Scott In a message dated 7/3/2007 6:33:01 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: Dear TG, I appreciate your reply. Thanks for your patience. Very cool. TG: "Am I to understand you've only been studying the Dhamma for a year and a half? If so, I find your understanding remarkably good. I'm thinking that you must have been at it much longer though." Scott: No, not long, thanks for the kind word. Let's see. It dawned on me to search out the Dhamma about a month after my wife died, which was in October of '04. I meandered through the confusing plethora of doctrines and schools of thought for maybe eight months to a year - mostly feeling my way. So I guess its closer to two years, leaving out the pre-Theravada time - three if you count it. .................................................... NEW TG: Sorry about your wife passing. I also meandered through various doctrine (mostly Mahayana) for two years and ended up, in that phase, somewhat specializing in Nagarjuna due to his relentless no-self position. Then I picked up the Suttas and started reading them. Took about two months to realize that this was something incredibly deeper and more real (or actual) than what I had read before. Never looked back, rarely read secondary material, but did study Abhidhamma stuff pretty intently for 4 or 5 years. Even read Nina's book 3 times...and I escaped un-brainwashed. LOL Seriously though, her book really helped in understanding what Abhidhamma consciousness process were about. A good place to start. I don't subscribe exactly to that outlook, I just note it and put it aside. Some of it makes good sense, but the tendency is for "dhammas" to become "individual things" in an ontological sense which I don't accept. Your diligence in handling Pali in your analysis is very commendable. Being lazy, I decided to become the first person enlightened in English only. LOL ............................................ TG: "In my view, I would expect most folks need to read and reread the suttas over and over again for 10 years (at least 5) before they would have a good solid outlook regarding its contents and sensibility. I've been at it for closer to 27 years, but I'm not very bright so that explains a lot." Scott: Yeah, I can really say I'm a beginner and have a lot to read. You are so bright. ........................................ NEW TG: LOL Now you're just toying with me huh? ................................. NEW TG: "When the Buddha says -- “Imposthume, brethren, is a term for body, of the four elements compounded, of parents sprung, on rice and gruel fed, impermanent, of a nature to be worn away, pounded away, broken and scattered.â€Â? (The Buddha . . . Book of the Kindred Sayings (KS), (Samyutta Nikaya), vol. 4, pg. 50) You view this as a simile?" Scott: I've got Bh. Bodhi's translation. I think its the explanation of a simile given earlier in the sutta - the one about the king in the frontier city: "...I have made up this simile, bhikkhu, in order to convey a meaning. This is the meaning here: 'The city': this is a designation for this body consisting of the four great elements, originating from mother and father, built up out of boiled rice and gruel, subject to impermanence, to being worn and rubbed away, to breaking apart and dispersal...d Upamaa kho myaaya.m bhikkhu kataa atthassa vi~n~naapanaaya, aya~ncevettha attho: nagaranti kho bhikkhu imasseta.m caatummahaabhutikascaatummahaabhutikassa kaayassa adhivacana.caatu odanakummaasuupacayodanakummaasuupacayassa aniccucchaada vidda.msana dhammassa. ..................................... NEW TG: Therefore, the simile is what precedes what I wrote. Not what I wrote...at least in this case. .................................... Scott: I'll continue later, TG, the laundry in the drier is dry, the kids need rousing, etc. I want to examine the sutta quote in more detail. Thanks for your continued patience. But be careful: TG: "...I'm afraid your question is a 'set-up' headed in that direction. Hopefully I'm wrong." Scott: When you least expect it - expect it. Armed with the might of three years experience I will pounce without a moment's warning... ........................................ NEW TG: That's what I would have done. LOL Three years is good enough. I think you're a Buddhist prodigy; but then I think a lot of folks in this group are too. (Well, maybe not Howard.) LOL Just kidding! The Suttas need years of examining and reflection. When I write my "wild theories," its something I've been considering, through analysis and direct observation, for decades. How could someone, hearing them for the first time, "see in them" what I see? They really can't ... especially if they reject them out of hand without even trying to insightfully see what it is I'm saying...which is usually what happens in this group. (We're all pretty locked into our thinking.) And I would say that pretty much all my ideas on the suttas come from the suttas in conjunction with direct observation. That said, I admit to seeing the Four Great Elements in a more radical way than can be garnered from a "straight" reading of the suttas. I just wish the Buddha was around so I could ask him about it. :-) IMO, years of studying Suttas is not only for becoming well informed by its contents, but even more importantly, to develop the sensibility to the teachings that allow one to put in its proper perspective the various levels and intents of the teachings. (I'm not sure if this "sensibility" can be developed or if someone just has to have it to begin with...but probably both.) Without this, one can take any position based on the Suttas because the suttas say opposite things at various times. The teaching is actually consistent, but due to the various circumstances and levels it is taught at, it may sound like conflicting statements at times. I suspect you know all of this stuff anyway. TG OUT #73983 From: TGrand458@... Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 8:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] There is No Abhidhammika Perspective In Theravada Re: "Dhammas" and... TGrand458@... Hi Suan Lu Zaw Your entitled to your opinion. Its a clever case you make, but just your opinion when you get right down to it. BTW, I know high ranking, highly respected Elder Theravada Sri Lankan Monks, with post graduate degrees in Buddhism from Sri Lankan Universities, who don't think highly about Abhidhamma at all, and do not consider it the Buddha's teaching. So much for lumping all Theravada folks into one basket. TG In a message dated 7/3/2007 8:21:17 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, suanluzaw@... writes: Dear TG, Nina, Connie, Scott Duncan, Robert K, How are you? I haven't followed many threads, including this one. So someone may have already written what I am about to write. 1. First, there is no Abhidhammika'1. First, there is no Abhidh followers of Thravada accept only the Buddha's perspective. Abhidhamma is only a mode of teaching among many others, and can be spotted in every Nikaaya. I consult Vinaya Pi.taka from time to time to get information for abhidhamma. The Buddha's every discourse (Suttam) is to teach partial aspects of Abhidhamma, sometimes briefly, and sometimes more elaborately than Abhidhamma Pi.taka undertakes. As such, the Abhidhamma perspective is the very perspective of the Buddha. 2. Three characteristics are to distinguish paramattha dhammas from non-paramattha dhammas. They are tools for identifying and or defining dhammas. 3. Paramattha dhammas happens or (exists in the case of nibbaana) while three characteristics are discovered or observed to describe how the paramattha dhammas happen or exists. You wrote: "Then again, maybe this isn't at all correct understanding of the Abhidhammika position." You are already wrong to have asserted the non-existence thing such as the Abhidhammika position. We can re-write your above statement as follows. "Then again, maybe this isn't at all correct understanding of the Buddha's position." I agree. :-) With regards, Suan Lu Zaw #73984 From: TGrand458@... Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 9:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) TGrand458@... In a message dated 7/3/2007 12:01:45 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi TG, I think this will not do. Absence does not mean: there never was. It is past and the past can work on the present. Nina. ................................. Hi Nina Past conditions have transferred whatever conditioning power they had into what is present conditions. The past conditions are no longer conditioning, the present conditions carry with them those forces/momentums which are now present forces/momentums. The past is gone! Powerless. I do not say -- The past never was. Nor do I say that absence means -- there never was. But I do say, the past cannot work on the present. The past is done doing work. The present "outcomes" are now what are doing work. The interactions of the present are conditioning what will be the future once the present is past in which case that "future" will be present. ;-) Interesting...you guys want arising and then immediate ceasing, yet want the past to continue to work on the present. Its a wild wacky world you suggest! ;-) TG #73985 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 12:20 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Humourously swimming in a bottle? dacostacharles Dear Colette, I am sorry if the following is considered personal info, I just had to ask. What nationality are you and in which country do you live? Charles DaCosta _____ #73986 From: "colette" Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 6:50 am Subject: Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) ksheri3 Good Morning Jonothan, > Some folks emphasise 'practice' to the extent that > they consider talk about the meaning of the texts to be unnecessary or at the very least a > distraction from the main task. > colette: Not trying to be the pain in the butty but, this is nothing less than Yogacara, there is a some point where either: 1) the person experiences something. a) when the experience happens the seed (bija) has been planted. b) the master mold for the mass produced product has been caste in that there will be a memory of this experience that has a contingent on it suggesting that the experience was pleasurable, non- pleasurable, or neither pleasurable or non-pleasurable. c) the sentient being will then question that sensation's validity. 2) the person will read about something and go the intellectual route of the "Dogmatist". All 8 consciousnesses will be dictated by what another person has written for the Dogmatist to read, to believe, to act/react upon, to entirely sacrifice their entire lives on simply because it was written down by another person that had the daring to actually live the life they have.(Boy could I go off on one of my old remarks concerning a generalization of the buddhist community I did, a few yrs. ago, concerning how the buddhists that I had run into at that time only sit on their hands and do absolutely nothing but complain about how others choose to live and destroy this life and planet, which got me a response saying something to the fact that "do you know how many buddhists you've just offended"?) So, either 1) or 2) happened first and is the cause. It sets the stage for the other to perform. In my case it would be similar to a Montessori school education, which resembles as vocational education, but is nothing more than ON-THE-JOB-TRAINING. Thus, I have the well of experience to draw upon as I educate myself about buddhism. There is a large portion of society that simply cannot throw EXPERIENCE nor it's twin, it's duplicate, EDUCATION away but still that is a major requirement for the stratified society, the society built on class distinctions and pre-requisites before there is any verification that the sentient being has a beating, pumping, heart, a functioning brain, etc. Expereince and Eduation are inseperable. And so to say that one is of greater value than the other is a disqualification of both. ---------------------------- > As I see it, an intellectual understanding of the texts does not necessarily involve > memorization of the texts. colette: memorization of anything has little to no value whatsoever, in this life. I can memorize thousands of test answers and simply function as a robot by marking the memorized responses and receiving gratification for the memorization. That memorization has NO VALUE. That memorization is such an obviously EMPTY ACT. It is the exact same thing as being born, having a silver spoon stuck between your lips, as GWB surely did, never saying a word about yourself or the world you live in, and suddenly finding yourself in control and command of this world, without ever saying a word since mommy was kind enough to take your tongue out by sticking the silver spoon between your lips to suck on. --------------- Furthermore, there can be memorization without a proper > understanding of what is being memorized. colette: were you a part of GWB's graduating class at Yale university or were you in his National Guard unit that spent so much time fighting the enemy at the local tavern where the glasses that any/all liquor in them had to be vanguished by a strong thirst? ;) ---------------------------------- > > > colette: here comes a good trip, are you doing magic mushrooms? > > > But the intellectual appreciation of the teachings will > > > always precede (and support) the realisation of them, surely? > > > > > colette: NOT A CHANCE IN HELL! Intellectual appreciation is nothing > > more than taking this before taking that. > > I must be missing something, because I thought you started out by acknowledging the > importance of intellectual understanding. colette: I could say that what you have is a WRONG VIEW since you were under the impression that I was a candidate to lead down the isle of slavery where I would end up saying "I do". I certainly agree that intellectual understanding is utmost since there are countless ways to see the spotlight called the sun or is it moon? Still, while management may have delusions of granduer and complete narcisism they cannot escape the recognition of labor, therefore, experience plays -- ----------------- What exactly is it you are saying has 'not a > chance in hell'? > colette: didn't I just make myself clear about the cost of housing and the mortgage payment which is exactly the same thing as a prison sentence? You suggest that Intellectualism is the only way and that only the rich have the right to possess freedom, much like the america that GWB continually testifies that he is the president of. That, my friend, is blatant discrimination. sorry, I've gotta go. Thank you for the reply and the inquirey. toodles, colette > > How dare you suggest that there is some man-made machine and assembly > > line that must first be pacified and gratified before there is any > > realization of rigpa? > > Was I suggesting that? ;-)) > > > > Jon > #73987 From: "Phil" Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 7:56 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Serious about Dhamma? Serious about one's defilements? philofillet Hi Jon > Continuing my reply to this post of yours. I find your persistence in communicating with me really stirring, Jon. I can feel your commitment to the Dhamma. But I'll back out out of this thread. I don't have the capacity ( including time-wise) to do anything but repeat my shallow generalizations. I'm going to avoid talking/writing about sila from now on at DSG. There are intentional practices taught for the development of sila, and one of them is avoiding discussions that one knows from experience always leads to wrong speech. On the other hand I am finding other topics that interest me that I may be able to benefit from discussing here, such as the sutta in SN on the four kinds of nutrition (edible food, contact, consciousness and volition.) This really caught Naomi's interest as well, as no other Dhamma point has before. So I may be asking about that when I have more time. Thanks and have a nice time in Bangkok. ?@ Metta, Phil #73988 From: "Ramesh Patil" Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 9:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Death - just like now! (Alan Driver's funeral) [5 rameshat27 Hi Nina,Howard,Sarah, H:- The extent of dukkha in all our lives is, if looked at in a certain way, almost comical. By seeing the "craziness" of it all and laughing at that we may be able to soften our heart, loosen our grasping, and permit love and ease to come to the fore. N:-I understand what you say about laugthter, would like to hear Howard's opinion.. R:-Yaa Howard opinion is sometimes gives u ease..But if u look the real stories happened in ancient times during buddha..they actually tried sufferer may come to know the exact reason of dhukkha..see the example of one mother whose child is died and she don't want to separate that dead child from her..wondering here and there in search of hope that some body will make her child alive again..when people sent her towards budhha,they told her to bring seeds from any home where no death happens of any one human..she went despearately to search such homes in village where no death of any one happened..but from every home, she got that his mother or father or child or cousine died and she come to know the real truth that death is the truth of everyones life and in every home, the people r there who loose there relative but still they r living and not craving for the death persons..analysing this truth ...she able to overcome her dhukkha..I think we also think in deep about the reason of our dhukkha..instead of running from that try to analyse...face the reason and truth..if we able to find out that ourself ..our dhukkha reduced and there is no more mouring on that one... "N:-As she said:< What would you prefer? That I cry as I talk about the impermanence of dhammas?'.> We cannot help others by dosa, by crying. I had trouble to swallow: wishing well, there are no people. Here I can feel with Howard that we also have our social life, and it is appreciated when people wish well. When the citta is metta, then the object is a being, and metta is praised by the Buddha. When there is wrong view or conceit, it is a different matter. In between metta there are bound to be akusala cittas. It is all mixed. As Connie wrote to me: Helping can be done with wrong view and conceit: I know better, I want to help him. He and me: often conceit. It seems that we can hardly do any kusala. Howard, Ramesh, Han? Opinions please and examples from daily life, that would be helpful to me." R:- What u r speaking is true that we can not help others by dosa or crying..if u want to help anyone..then try to analyse the sufferer the real truth of his dukkha..Also by developing metta, ur mind becomes calm and compassionate..but such person also have suffering...investigating citta can only remove it..Helping done with wrong view is the totally failure to overcome others dhukkha..instead of that it increases others more intensivelly..and why to crave for kusala..try to remove ours suffering first..removing impurity from our citta feels every one happy and very much peace..if u try to overcome others dhukkha to help him but he can not able to understand the reason behind it then u can not do anything..don't morn for this thing that u can not able to do kusala and failed to remove that person from mysery..buddha also shows path of nibbana to so much people but only few are succeded in it...in becoming arahant..but on this buddha never feels that they r hardly do any kusala..on that they told practically that I am here only to show the Path ..It depends upon everones capability to reach the final destination.. with metta ************ ramesh ======= #73989 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 3:45 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) upasaka_howard Hi, TG - -----Original Message----- From: TGrand458@... To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 10:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) In a message dated 7/3/2007 8:56:42 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, upasaka@... writes: Absence condition (or what might be called "cessation condition") makes a lot of sense to me. It is readily and frequently observed how the cessation of a phenomenon is an event that serves as condition for other phenomena. Also, even an absence itself, not just a cessation, can be seen as a requisite condition, because in the presence of certain phenomena, certain other phenomena may be unable to exist, and thus the absence of the former is requisite for the latter. With metta, Howard Hi Howard I understand what you mean. IMO, though, its the "remaining" conditions are what are doing the conditioning. The absence of something, as a condition, seems like conceptual subjective perspective. For example, if there is an absence of one leg of a tripod, the tripod will fall down. I don't view "the absence" of the tripod leg as being the condition for falling down, but rather the gravity, the remaining tripod configuration, etc. Now, the actual "positive" forces at play that may have taken one tripod away, those "actual/positive" conditions I would consider a condition for the tripods imbalance and resulting falling. But not merely the absence of something. TG ================================ Your point is a good one, TG. It may well be correct. ;-) As for cessation, though, I'm not as willing to yield. Cessations do seem to me to constitute actual events, and they certainly do have consequences. With metta, Howard #73990 From: connie Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 4:13 pm Subject: Re: Serious about Dhamma? Serious about one's defilements? nichiconn dear phil, mmmm, yessssss.... forget table manners. bring on the wife and let's start gobbling. may hunger and thirsts be satiated. we'll call it a benefit. c. 'It was, after all, empty-headed and foolish of my teacher to leave the rest of the Buddha's word aside, and teach me the Abhidhamma first!' -- Naagasena And the lady said to Naagasena: 'I am old, friend Naagasena. Let the thanksgiving be from the deeper things of the faith.' #73991 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 4:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What is the wrong view? (References from the MN anthology) lbidd2 Hi Nina, N: "But then faith has to be accompanied by understanding that begins to investigate realities, even though understanding has not reached yet the level of vipassana, that is, the realization of a stage of insight." L: Faith is always accompanied by sati, so I would say yes there is some investigation going on. My basic idea is that any kusala citta is right path, just as any akusala citta is wrong path. There couldn't be a kusala citta that is wrong path. Larry #73992 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 4:40 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sammaadi.t.thi studycorner. lbidd2 Hi Nina, Thanks for the clarifications, especially no resultant unpleasant feeling except for unpleasant bodily feeling. But I am still at a loss. In this part of dependent arising we are dealing only with resultant feeling. This resultant feeling conditions the arising of three kinds of craving: sensuous craving, craving for becoming, and craving for annihilation. It would seem that sensuous craving and craving for becoming would be conditioned by a pleasant feeling. The only one available for eye, ear, nose, and tongue contact is the feeling that accompanies investigation consciousness. Right? As for the third kind of craving, it would make sense to me that an unpleasant feeling would condition craving for annihilation, but there is no resultant unpleasant feeling in eye, ear, nose, or tongue contact. So how does this work? This seems like an important point because pleasant or unpleasant feeling arises with sense contact all the time, and we need to know where this feeling comes from in order to understand the cause and condition of nama and rupa. Larry #73993 From: "Phil" Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 5:04 pm Subject: Re: Serious about Dhamma? Serious about one's defilements? philofillet Hi Connie > mmmm, yessssss.... forget table manners. bring on the wife and let's > start gobbling. may hunger and thirsts be satiated. we'll call it a > benefit. Thanks...I think... I guess the above is in reference to the nutrition thing. Certainly a very interesting topic. > 'It was, after all, empty-headed and foolish of my teacher to leave the > rest of the Buddha's word aside, and teach me the Abhidhamma first!' - - > Naagasena I gues it could be wise to start with Abhdhamma if one has the rare capacity to not impatiently try to get too much out of it, as I did. I think Burmese monks are taught Abhidhamma from the word go when they are novices. But perhaps it's more a part of their training to develop patient mental habits, all the memorizing of lists, perhaps. I don't know. The sayadaws certainly know their Abhidhamma and include references to it readily in their Dhamma talks. > > And the lady said to Naagasena: 'I am old, friend Naagasena. Let the > thanksgiving be from the deeper things of the faith.' Interesting. I think if we go straight to the "deeper things of the faith" (ie Abhidhamma) we risk trying to consume them without the proper digestive system for it, something like that, especialy we in the west who are conditioned (in my opinion) to wanna get a lot of wisdom. On the other hand, the pariyati > patipati progression emphasized by Acharn Sujin (I haven't heard it emphasized elsewhere) would protect against that, presumably, because one bears in mind that the pariyati is merely condition for deeper wisdom and one does one's diligent studying (I know it's not just studying) without greed for deeper wisdom. Back to nutrition. There is a good Thanissaro Bhikkhu talk (not kosher fare for most folks here, I suspect) called "no need to feed." For him, meditation is a way of giving the mind something wholesome to feed on so the mind is trained not to devour the harmful things it devours so readily. He starts by saying that Thanksgiving is a good time to reflect on this... Anyways, nice to touch bases with you, Connie. Metta, Phil #73994 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 5:14 pm Subject: Vism.XVII,168 Vism.XVII,169 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga), Ch. XVII 168. Here it might be asked: 'If no transmigration is manifested, then after the cessation of the aggregates in this human person, that fruit could be another person's or due to other [kamma], since the kamma that is the condition for the fruit does not pass on there [to where the fruit is]? And whose is the fruit since there is no experiencer? Therefore this formulation seems to be unsatisfactory'. 169. Here is the reply: In continuity the fruit Is neither of nor from another; Seed's forming processes will suit To show the purport of this matter. ******************************************* 168. etthaaha -- nanu eva.m asa"nkantipaatubhaave sati ye imasmi.m manussattabhaave khandhaa, tesa.m niruddhattaa, phalapaccayassa ca kammassa tattha agamanato a~n~nassa a~n~nato ca ta.m phala.m siyaa, upabhu~njake ca asati kassa ta.m phala.m siyaa, tasmaa na sundaramida.m vidhaananti. 169. tatrida.m vuccati -- santaane ya.m phala.m eta.m, naa~n~nassa na ca a~n~nato. biijaana.m abhisa"nkhaaro, etassatthassa saadhako.. #73995 From: "Phil" Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 7:15 pm Subject: Re: Serious about Dhamma? Serious about one's defilements? philofillet Hi again Connie > > mmmm, yessssss.... forget table manners. bring on the wife and > let's > > start gobbling. may hunger and thirsts be satiated. we'll call it > a > > benefit. Oh, I get it now! (I think.) Well, I think table manners are very important. :) I like the way I vow to quit DSG but come back a few days later. This shows that the Dhamma is at work in me, I think. Conditions are at work that make discussing Dhamma win out over the things that make me quit DSG now and then. But Dhamma is also at work that will make my incidents of wrong speech less and less commonplace - my table manners will improve. And vowing to improve them is an important part of that. An indispensable part, I think. Metta, Phil #73996 From: connie Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 7:38 pm Subject: Vism.XVII,168 Vism.XVII,169 nichiconn Path of Purity, p.665 [555] Herein objection might arise: - "Because, the absence of passage from the past to the present being evident, those aggregates of this human personality have ceased, and the karma which is the cause of the fruit does not pass on to that fruit, can any other than the doer get the fruit? {Mrs. Rhys Davids writes: raised in Majjhima iii, 19; Sa.myutta iii, 103.} And can that fruit come from some other cause? In the absence of one who enjoys, to whom does the fruit go? The present order is therefore not satisfactory." This is the reply: - The fruit that comes in continuity Is not of any other, nor is it From any other (cause.) This purport is Effected by preparing (growth) of seeds. #73997 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 7:42 pm Subject: Re: Serious about Dhamma? Serious about one's defilements? rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connie wrote: > > > dear phil, > mmmm, yessssss.... forget table manners. bring on the wife and let's > start gobbling. may hunger and thirsts be satiated. we'll call it a > benefit. > c. > > 'It was, after all, empty-headed and foolish of my teacher to leave the > rest of the Buddha's word aside, and teach me the Abhidhamma first!' -- > Naagasena > > Dear Connie Perhaps some context. It was on his second day as a Bhikkhu that he had this thought: >>>28. Now the next day after he had thus been admitted into full membership in the Order, the venerable Nâgasena robed himself at dawn, and taking his bowl, accompanied his teacher on his round for alms to the village below. And as he went this thought arose within him: 'It was, after all, empty-headed and foolish of my teacher to leave the rest of the Buddha's word aside, and teach me the Abhidhamma first!' p. 23 And the venerable Rohana became aware in his own mind of what was passing in the mind of Nâgasena, and he said to him: 'That is an unworthy reflection that thou art making, Nâgasena; it is not worthy of thee so to think.' 'How strange and wonderful,' thought Nâgasena, 'that my teacher should be able to tell in his own mind what I am thinking of! I must ask his pardon.' And he said: 'Forgive me, Sir; I will never make such a reflection again.' [14] 'I cannot forgive you, Nâgasena, simply on that promise,' was the reply. 'But there is a city called Sâgala, where a king rules whose name is Milinda, and he harasses the brethren by putting puzzles to them of heretical tendency. You will have earned your pardon, Nâgasena, when you shall have gone there, and overcome that king in argument, and brought him to take delight in the truth.'"" Robert #73998 From: connie Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 9:11 pm Subject: Re: Serious about Dhamma? Serious about one's defilements? nichiconn Dear Phil, yes, table manners come under siila... "habit", i like to think of it. character & the cloak of personality? but i've just come up from the basement to discover i can freeload off someone's wireless connection so i'm having a real smorgasbord delivered: the rest of bhikkhu bodhi's MN series; his pali course; maybe tomorrow video. theft. but never mind... << And Naagasena, in pronouncing the thanksgiving discourse, dwelt on the profounder side of the Abhidhamma, not on matters of mere ordinary morality, but on those relating to Arahatship. And as the lady sat there listening, there arose in her heart the Insight into the Truth, clear and stainless, which perceives that whatsoever has beginning, that has the inherent quality of passing away. And Naagasena also, when he had concluded that thanksgiving discourse, felt the force of the truths he himself had preached, and he too arrived at insight --he too entered, as he sat there, upon the stream (that is to say, upon the first stage of the Excellent Way to Arahatship). 32. Then the venerable Assagutta, as he was sitting in his arbour, was aware that they both had attained to insight, and he exclaimed: 'Well done! well done, Naagasena! by one arrow shot you have hit two noble quarries!' And at the same time thousands of the gods shouted their approval. >> best wishes, connie www.sacred-texts.com/bud/sbe35/sbe3503.htm the introduction is rather interesting, too. #73999 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 1:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sensibility to the teachings, was: "Dhammas" and Impermanence. nilovg Hi TG, ------ Op 3-jul-2007, om 22:07 heeft TGrand458@... het volgende geschreven: > Its a wild wacky world you > suggest! ;-) -------------- you made me laugh. I am glad my Abh in DL helped you to some extent. The example of seeing and hearing I gave you was not a case of absence condition, but I wanted to show, that in general seeing has to be absent for hearing to arise. I wanted to spare you all the details of the sense-door adverting-consciousness, etc. Absence condition is very precise. It only concerns citta, no tripod. When you study Abhidhamma you will notice that every item has a very precise meaning. There is no room for speculating and giving one's own interpretation about the conventional terms used. This is not meant personal, TG. There is Abhidhamma in the Suttanta and also in the Vinaya. You wrote something I find significant: See, that is it: An example from the Vinaya (Mahaavagga, I, 20. 24-21.4, Fire sutta): < Monks, everything is burning. And what is everything that is burning? The eye...visible object...seeing...eye-contact...in other words the feeling which arises from impingement on the eye, be it pleasant or painful or neither painful nor pleasant, that too is burning. With what is it burning? I say it is burning with the fire of passion, with the fire of hatred, with the fire of stupidity; it is burning because of birth, ageing, dying, because of grief, sorrow, suffering, lamentation and despair...The ear is burning, sounds are burning...the nose is burning....Seeing it thus, monks, the instructed disciple of the ariyans disregards the eye...disregarding he is dispassionate; through dispassion he is freed; in freedom the knowledge comes to be, 'I am freed', and he comprehends: Destroyed is birth, lived is the Brahma-faring, done is what was to be done, there is no more of being such or such." And while this discourse was being uttered, the minds of these thousand monks were freed from the cankers without grasping.> Note the end. They could not become arahats without the development of vipassana/satipatthana. Direct awareness and understanding of all realities that appeared through six doorways. Perhaps our sensibilities are different. I see here Abhidhamma and satipatthana in the sutta. Realities as they appear through each of the doorways separately, one at a time, mentioned in this sutta should be seen as impermanent and non-self. I am thinking of what Connie and Rob K wrote as to the Abhidhamma: < 'It was, after all, empty-headed and foolish of my teacher to leave the rest of the Buddha's word aside, and teach me the Abhidhamma first!' -- Naagasena (at his second day of going forth). And the lady said to Naagasena: 'I am old, friend Naagasena. Let the thanksgiving be from the deeper things of the faith.'> Let the thanksgiving be from the Abhidhamma, which enables us to know the deeper things of the faith. It depends on your interest how many details of the Abhidhamma you wish to study, but the basics, such as seeing, visible object, eyedoor, the dhammas appearing through the different doorways are an essential support for satipatthana. Thanksgiving, thanksgiving. Nina.