#74400 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jul 15, 2007 10:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] satipatthana as island of refuge sarahprocter... Hi Tep (& Phil), Good to see your comments and good questions again, Tep. --- Tep Sastri wrote: > S: (quoting Mahaa Parinibbaana Sutta) > "When he dwells contemplating the body in the body, earnestly, clearly > comprehending, and mindfully, after having overcome desire and > sorrow in regard to the world;..........." > > S: In the paragraph before, the Buddha makes it clear that it is through > the development of the four satipatthanas that desire and sorrow are > overcome and 'he is an island unto himself.. > > T: Does the development of the four satipatthanas overcome desire > and sorrow, or is the development of the four satipatthanas commence > after disire and sorrow have been overcome? Thanks. .... NEW S: The overcoming of desire and sorrow in the quote above refers to the mundane path when desire and sorrow are temporarily 'overcome' through the development of satipatthana. From the comy to the Satipatthana Sutta (Soma transl): " 'Having overcome' refers to the discipline of knocking out an evil quality by its opposite good (that is by dealing with each category of evil separately) or through the overcoming of evil part by part [tada"ngavinaya] and through the disciplining or the overcoming of the passions by suppression in absorption [vikkhambhana vinaya]." "Preliminary practice connected with the mundane path of mindfulness is pointed out by the commentator her." Of course desire is only fully overcome at the stage of arahant. Pls let me know if I've missed anything here. Metta, Sarah ===== #74401 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 12:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Response to E-card from Bangkok 3 (1) sarahprocter... Dear Han & all, I think this is an important and subtle topic. It wasn't on my list to raise, but you reminded me of it before the discussion with A.Sujin, so I concluded it was on your mind. --- han tun wrote: > Sarah: > - Atta/anatta, the softness of the body or the > softness of the pillow - just softness experienced, > anatta! .... S: In other words, when softness (the paramattha dhamma) is experienced, there is no idea of body, pillow or anything else. Quickly, we so often take the softness for being *something*. It doesn't matter what the thing it's taken to be is, but atta view underlies the idea of a *thing* existing at that moment. This is atta-vaada (doctrine of self) and clinging to it (attavaadupaadaana). Now, of course this doesn't mean that when there is no clinging to atta that there is no more idea about 'pillow' or 'body'. Of course the sotapanna knows the difference because of the accumulation of sa~n~naa which is used to marking them. However, the sotapanna has no more perversions with atta-view and no more idea of a lasting thing of any kind. ..... > Han: > It all started when I wrote, some time back, that > attavaadupaadaana and sakkaaya-ditthi are synonymous. > I wrote that, not without a reference. I was referring > to the Abhidhammaattha Sangaha. In A Comprehesive > manual of Abhidhamma by Mahaathera Naarada and Bhikkhu > Bodhi, on page 267, attavaadupaadaana is explained as > follws. > > Quote: [Clinging to a doctrine of self > (attavaadupaadaana) is the adoption of personality > view (sakkaya-ditthi), the identification of any of > the five aggregates as a self or the accessories of a > self. <....>End Quote. .... S: Attavaadupaadaana is sakkaya-ditthi (I haven't said they are not the same), BUT attavaadupaadaana is broader, I think. The Abhidhammattha Sangaha itself just says: "Cattaaro upaadaanaa: kaamupaadaana"m, di.t.thupaadaana"m, siilabbatupaadaana"m, attavaadupaadaana"m." BB transl: "Four clingings: 1)clinging to sense pleasures, 2)clinging to wrong views, 3)clinging to rites and ceremonies, 4)clinging to a doctrine of self". The commentary to the text adds to 4)(transl by Wijeratne and Gethin): "A doctrine (vaada) is that by which one affirms (vadati)[a doctrine]; the doctrine of self (atta-vaada) is the affirmation (vaada) of a self [atta] imagined in twenty ways as something distinct or not distinct from the aggregates; the grasping of the doctrine of self [attavaadupaadaana] is grasping that itself takes the form of the doctrine of self." .... S: Whether we take the pillow or arm as 'atta', as something other than softness or the rupa khandha, there is attavaadupaadaana. It is said in the Sammohavinodani that attavaadupaadaana is taught last (of the 4 upaadaanas) because of its subtlety. .... > This topic was discussed at a previous meeting at the > Foundation, and Ajahn Sujin explained > attavaadupaadaana taking a box of biscuits as an > example. I could not remember the details, and I could > not understand the explanation. ... S: It is just the same as in the example of softness. Seeing only ever sees visible object. Whether we take the visible object for being a hand or a box of biscuits, when there is the wrong view of *something existing or lasting*, there is atta view. We don't take the biscuits for being 'my self', whereas we do take the hand for being 'my self' or 'mine'. But the atta view is just as real, just as *atta*. If there is an understanding at this moment of visible object as being just that which is seen, there's no idea of either existing. .... <...> > Ajahn Sujin, pointing at a cup on the table, asked me > whether the hardness or softness of the cup was > different from the hardness or softness of my body. > Like the last time, when a box of biscuits was cited, > I did not understand how the comparison with the cup > fitted in with the discussion on the difference > between attavaadupaadaana and sakkaya-ditthi. > > Does it mean that the cup resembles a being, and the > essence or substance of the cup resembles the five > aggregates of a being? ... S: It means that the reality, the pathavi dhatu is just pathavi dhatu, regardless of whether we call it cup or being. The visible object rupa is just rupa, again regardless of how we think about it. In any of these examples, it is just rupa khandha which is taken for being something (i.e a cup or being). Of course there are good reasons why we determine that one is a cup and one is a being conceptually, but still, all that is ever experienced are the 5 khandhas. The rest are ideas, according to accumulated tendencies which are dependent on memory. ..... >Or, does it mean that the cup > is an anatta, because its essence or substance (e.g. > pathavi element) are anatta like the five aggregates > of a being? ... S: The cup doesn't exist. It's a conventional truth only. Yes, what we take for being a cup is made up of various elements, but here we are talking about what is experienced through the 6 doorways which leads to the idea of atta-view. At the moment of picking up the cup, only hardness is experienced through the body-sense. The idea of cup is through the mind-door, with or without a clinging to *something*, a *cup* existing. .... >And when a person looks at a cup and says > that it is a "cup", does it mean that he is taking > anatta for atta? Is this the broader aspect of > attavaadupaadaana, extending beyond the five > aggregates of a being and including all inanimate > things, such as a box of biscuits or a cup? ... S: It's not what he says of course, but what he thinks! An arahat will still say it's a cup. As you say, this is the broader aspect of attavaadupaadaana to include the taking of any of the five aggregates (inner or outer) for being atta. [It reminds me a little of the references in the Satipatthana Sutta to 'internal' and 'external'. When satipatthana has been developed and realities are known for what they are, there's no idea of 'internal' and 'external' as consisting of separate dhammas. Rupa is rupa, vedana is vedana, citta is citta, dhamma is dhamma.] .... >I do not > know. When I consider attavaadupaadaana and > sakkaaya-ditthi as snyonymous, it is very simple and > easy to understand. But when I try to understand > attavaadupaadaana in this round-about way, taking a > box of bsicuits and a cup as examples, it becomes > complicated for me to understand. ... S: We all know that when we take 'Han' or 'Sarah' for atta, for something real, that it's an illusion. It's just the same for 'house' or 'computer' or a cup. If there's no sakkaaya di.t.thi, there won't be other kinds of wrong view either, because the khandhas have been clearly understood as mere elements arising and falling away. So, I think this is why sakkaaya di.t.thi is stressed - because other wrong views depend on this. Our 'self' or 'body' is always with us, always being taken for 'atta'. I appreciate all your deep points very much in this regard. They help me consider too. I look forward to your other elaborations. Pls take your time. ... Metta, Sarah > P.S. I still cannot use my computer at home. > I am writing this at a friend's place. ... S: Thx for going to this trouble and I hope your computer is fixed soon. ======== #74402 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 12:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Angry Monks sarahprocter... Dear Chuck, Great to hear from you! Thank you so much for updating us and letting us know that you've disrobed. Of course your message is most acceptable! Are you back in Texas now or still in Bangkok? It would have been nice if you could have joined us recently there for our discussions. I completely agree with your comments and sentiments below. Yes, we all share the human frailties and do our best accordingly. So now you're catching up here again, you can 'argue' as you like with us. I recall you were going to ordain under your old teacher at a meditation temple near Bangkok, but forget the details. I'm sure many would be interested to hear more about it all if you can be bothered. Again, good to welcome you back! Metta, Sarah --- dhammasaro wrote: > > Good friends, > > Please forgive this very belated message on this topic. I am catching > up on this valuable study group. > > IMHO, monks are simply human beings trying to be better persons... at > least in my experience... most have not achieved the different > levels... hence, they have many human frailties... some find being a > monk is an easier existence than being a rice farmer!!! This is my > experience in being allowed to be a monk for a year and a week. Last > April this ole, argumentive Texican requested permission to disrobe > after only one year of study as I was a "temporary" monk. I disrobed on > 6 May 2550 (2007) at my wat in Bangkok. > > Please remember the monks in your chanting/meditation/prayer. They need > it as much as we laypersons (householders). #74403 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 3:53 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Walking and General Deportment of the Body scottduncan2 Dear Howard, Thanks for: H: "Thank you for the detailed post. My reference is > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.119.than.html ." Sincerely, Scott. #74404 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 4:24 am Subject: Re: on arts scottduncan2 Dear Leo, Thanks for the list. This is a poem as well. The list reads very well as such (although perhaps meant as a list). I can add this: If one reads it as a poem, and not just as a list, then there is another form of imbedded non-material art. In this way there is another use as well. It could also be used in a song as lyrics. Try to read it as a poem and see what you think; or, if you are musical, try to imagine it put to music. I found I could do both. Also a coat of arms, which could hang nearly anywhere. I hope you don't mind the innovations or suggestions of new uses. L: "My fiindings for rock/metal art are..." Scott: I like (in no particular order): "agressive man with super long hair, which are to and on a ground with an crocodile or wild animal as a friend and right suport... He likes many locks... he like to collect horns and keep them on his shoulders... He likes inner super darkness and path of misery... He likes small tree with small branches and no leafs... He like all activities in a moonlight and mystic walks... man on a donkey with sward and wires intertaining donkey with low quality instrument... The one who is keeping arms always up... The one who likes little space and no room for anything.. The one who likes the wheels sometimes in normal way, but sometimes in abnormal and diformed way. Sometimes even one on one a right way. Or sometimes all wheels lined up inside the fence... The one, who like always to look into the space and nothing else... The one who like to touch or hold the star(s)..." L: "...Tathagatha like cakes, his touch is soft. touch of rock is not, so whatever is made aout of rock or metal should be in unnatural and strange way, so that no grasping to it existed by wise man." Scott: "His touch is soft." Please send a photo when the art is finished. Sincerely, Scott. #74405 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 5:17 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Walking and General Deportment of the Body scottduncan2 Dear All, Vibha"nga, 525: "'Aware' means: Therein what is awareness? That which is wisdom, understanding, investigation, research, truth investigation, discernment, discrimination, differentiation, erudition, proficiency, subtlety, analysis, consideration, breadth, sagacity, guidance, insight, awareness, goad, wisdom, controlling faculty of wisdom, power of wisdom, sword of wisdom, tower of wisdom, light of wisdom, splendour of wisdom, lustre of wisdom, absence of dullness, truth of investigation, right view. This is called awareness. Thus of this mindfulness and awareness he is possessed...furnished. Thus a bhikkhu mindful and aware looks ahead; mindful and aware he looks around; mindful and aware he bends; mindful and aware he stretches; mindful he acts with awareness; in bearing the outer robe, the alms-bowl and the under robe, mindful he acts with awareness; in eating, in obeying the calls of nature, mindful he acts with awareness; in walking, in standing, in sitting, in sleeping, in waking, in talking, in being silent, he acts with awareness." Scott: I find it useful to think of 'a bhikkhu', not as a monk - a person - but as a particular moment of consciousness. I also consider the actions described, not as actions completed, but as moments of mind-produced matter, each appearing, one after the other, in locations different than the last. This does away with any confusion related to thoughts of beings. For this, I consider the Commentary to the Saama~n~naphala Sutta, translated by Bh. Bodhi (pp.118-124) of which I can give some: "(iv) Clear comprehension of non-delusion is the clear comprehension which does not become deluded about going forward, etc. It should be understood as follows: Herein, when going forward and returning, a bhikkhu does not become deluded about these actions like a blind and foolish worldling who deludedly thinks: 'A self goes forward, the action of going forward is produced by a self,' or 'I go forward, the action of going forward is produced by me.' Instead he undeludedly understands: When the thought 'Let me go forward' arises, the mind-originated air element rises together with that thought, producing [bodily] intimation...Therein, when raising the foot, the material and mental phenomena which then occur do not reach the stage of bringing the foot forward. Similarily, those which occur when bringing the foot forward do not reach the stage of shifting it away; those which occur when shifting the foot away do not reach the stage of dropping it; those which occur when dropping the foot do not reach the stage of placing it on the ground; and those which occur when placing the foot on the ground do not reach the stage of pressing it against the ground. Having come into being section by section, phase by phase, stage by stage, these phenomena break up right on the spot, popping like sesamum seeds thrown onto a hot pan. Therein who is the one who goes forward? To whom does the going forward pertain? For ultimately there is only the going forward of elements, the sitting of elements, the lying down of elements. In each portion, together with the material form: One state of consciousness arises, Another state of consciousness ceases; The process thus goes on In uninterrupted flow like a stream. Thus clear comprehension of non-delusion means not becoming deluded about (such actions as) going forward, etc..." Scott: This is quite clear, clarifying elegantly the lack of necessity for attempting to perform a 'walking meditation' since ordinary, everyday walking is exactly the same and clear comprehension is not subject to being forced to arise. Sincerely, Scott. #74406 From: "colette" Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 5:09 am Subject: [dsg] Re: What is the wrong view? (References from the MN anthology) ksheri3 Good Morning Larry, It's a simple point I was trying to make: Faith has no ability to profess ANYTHING! The only ability FAITH has is given through our permision by allowing it to represent something. We cognize something as being, right off the bat this goes AGAINST the objectivity of YOGACARA (although YOGACARA may only be a philosophy that acknowledges the fact that we are delusioning 100% of the time since there is no Svabhava in things, rupa). We've cognized something as being. We recognize our limitations by giving it a name so that we may distinguish it from other things. This object does not have the ability to speak or two think on its own it is just a thing, rupa. We name this rupa. We hold the faith in the name we give to the rupa. We do the speaking for the rupa by giving the faith to the rupa. You suggest, Larry, that this thing can hold a conversation, that it has the ability to speak for itself, about itself, about the world it exists in, and, most importantly, it now has the ability to talk about YOU, the one that gave this rupa all the abilities it has but you've gone too far since now it can run around showing the world and all other sentient beings what kind of real scum you are by telling the media of your "dirty laundry". So, your delusion isn't complete now you've gotta ascribe emotional qualities to this rupa. Again, what I'm getting at is that this delusion, hallucination, that you are having can be different but you are not willing to allow it to be something "other" since that is a deviation from the dogma of the "BEATEN PATH", <....> It's early and time for my first cup of coffeee and cigarette. I may have my Honorable, but I'm still a sailor. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@... wrote: > > Hi Colette, > > I don't understand this. Can you say it again differently: > > "L: Someone might say that faith isn't a view because it doesn't > profess to understand. <...> #74407 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 6:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Seeking discussion on meditation methods/techniques philofillet Hi Howard Thanks. I'll probably have a go at it after my trip to Canada. I'd like to sort out various approaches to mindfulness of the body, find out how people approach it, hear what their teachers have had to say. Metta, Phil > I think that Dhamma List is a likely venue for what you have in mind. > It's being relatively moribund won't matter provided that current members > (like me) and new members such as those you have named start an active discussion > there. That will immediately bring the list to life! > #74408 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 2:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Seeking discussion on meditation methods/techniques upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and Phil, with apologies) - In a message dated 7/16/07 1:06:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > Hi Phil, > > --- Phil wrote: > > > Sarah and Jon, you might propose that such a discussion can be > >held at DSG, but unless it was a "closed thread" or something like > >that, I don't see how it could possibly avoid being derailed by well- > >intentionned interjections from the "meditation is wrong view" > >folks. And a "closed thread" would be weird, I think. > ... > S: Well, I think if you and others make it clear whom you are addressing, > like you did at the top of this message, then generally people respect > that. Of course, if it's a 'Dear All &Sundry', then All &Sundry are > likely to respond:). > > Derailing....well... > > Anyway, you're welcome to make it clear you only want to hear from other > 'meditators' anytime. Make it as 'closed' as you like - your corner, pal! > (I meant just the same to Howard with his CMA corner.) -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Sarah, you and Jon are the owner-moderators, and, of course, you set the rules. But if I may add my 2 cents: One of the many things I have admired about this list is that all threads are "public," open for one and all among the members to enter. I personally don't think it is a good precedent to move away from that. I see DSG as a community of friends in the Dhamma, a large community involving many perspectives (even some accused of being "defiled" by Mahayana! ;-). Naturally certain threads will typically attract partcipants with similar interests and perspectives. I, for example, rarely enter *technical* discussions of Abhidhamma involving a plethora of Pali terms, but there are occasions on which I *will* enter in a bit. In any case, for whatever this is worth: While having corners that center on fairly specific areas of study and therefore tend to attract a group of similarly-minded participants, I find myself uneasy with the idea of "restrictive corners" in which only certain people are *expected* to particpate, or only people sharing the same perspective, and others are not very welcome or even excluded. Should there be topics that some folks think should be restricted to only certain people or to a certain category of people based on belief or teacher or mode of practice, I would favor the setting up separate, special-purpose (even membership-restricted) lists as an alternative approach to setting corners of such a restrictive sort on DSG . Of course I'm expressing here only an opinion. I'm certainly not saying that things cannot be done other than as I would prefer. The decision is, of course, entirely yours and Jon's. -------------------------------------------------- > ... > > Needless to say, I want to continue discussing the tipitaka at DSG. > ... > S: Snipped the last lines that were back to the 'meditators' corner:). > > Metta, > > Sarah > =========================== With metta, Howard P.S. It just occurred to me that this sort of post I am sending might better have gone directly to the moderators rather than to the list. Since Phil's post and your reply were both onlist, Sarah, I made my reply in the same venue, but I suspect that this is getting close to a discussion really shouldn't be onlist, and I apologize if I have made a mistake in allowing this post to be onlist. /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) #74409 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 6:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Seeking discussion on meditation methods/techniques philofillet Hi Sarah Thanks. DSG is definitely the best Dhamma discussion group on the 'net, but it's not a place to discuss meditation techniques. It would be like discussing sex techniques in front of a bunch of nuns! A bunch of nuns who would be taking tsk tsk notes to present at their next gathering with the Mother Superior. I say that affectionately. Really, no big deal. I posted that proposal in another one of my moments of "deep interest" that came and went...and will probably come again. Metta, Phil > Anyway, you're welcome to make it clear you only want to hear from other > 'meditators' anytime. Make it as 'closed' as you like - your corner, pal! #74410 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 2:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Walking and General Deportment of the Body upasaka_howard Hi, Scott - In a message dated 7/16/07 8:18:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: > > Dear All, > > Vibha"nga, 525: > > "'Aware' means: Therein what is awareness? That which is wisdom, > understanding, investigation, research, truth investigation, > discernment, discrimination, differentiation, erudition, proficiency, > subtlety, analysis, consideration, breadth, sagacity, guidance, > insight, awareness, goad, wisdom, controlling faculty of wisdom, power > of wisdom, sword of wisdom, tower of wisdom, light of wisdom, > splendour of wisdom, lustre of wisdom, absence of dullness, truth of > investigation, right view. This is called awareness. Thus of this > mindfulness and awareness he is possessed...furnished. Thus a bhikkhu > mindful and aware looks ahead; mindful and aware he looks around; > mindful and aware he bends; mindful and aware he stretches; mindful he > acts with awareness; in bearing the outer robe, the alms-bowl and the > under robe, mindful he acts with awareness; in eating, in obeying the > calls of nature, mindful he acts with awareness; in walking, in > standing, in sitting, in sleeping, in waking, in talking, in being > silent, he acts with awareness." > > Scott: I find it useful to think of 'a bhikkhu', not as a monk - a > person - but as a particular moment of consciousness. I also consider > the actions described, not as actions completed, but as moments of > mind-produced matter, each appearing, one after the other, in > locations different than the last. This does away with any confusion > related to thoughts of beings. > > For this, I consider the Commentary to the Saama~n~naphala Sutta, > translated by Bh. Bodhi (pp.118-124) of which I can give some: > > "(iv) Clear comprehension of non-delusion is the clear comprehension > which does not become deluded about going forward, etc. It should be > understood as follows: > > Herein, when going forward and returning, a bhikkhu does not become > deluded about these actions like a blind and foolish worldling who > deludedly thinks: 'A self goes forward, the action of going forward is > produced by a self,' or 'I go forward, the action of going forward is > produced by me.' Instead he undeludedly understands: When the thought > 'Let me go forward' arises, the mind-originated air element rises > together with that thought, producing [bodily] intimation...Therein, > when raising the foot, the material and mental phenomena which then > occur do not reach the stage of bringing the foot forward. > Similarily, those which occur when bringing the foot forward do not > reach the stage of shifting it away; those which occur when shifting > the foot away do not reach the stage of dropping it; those which occur > when dropping the foot do not reach the stage of placing it on the > ground; and those which occur when placing the foot on the ground do > not reach the stage of pressing it against the ground. > > Having come into being section by section, phase by phase, stage by > stage, these phenomena break up right on the spot, popping like > sesamum seeds thrown onto a hot pan. Therein who is the one who goes > forward? To whom does the going forward pertain? For ultimately > there is only the going forward of elements, the sitting of elements, > the lying down of elements. In each portion, together with the > material form: > > One state of consciousness arises, > Another state of consciousness ceases; > The process thus goes on > In uninterrupted flow like a stream. > > Thus clear comprehension of non-delusion means not becoming deluded > about (such actions as) going forward, etc..." > > Scott: This is quite clear, clarifying elegantly the lack of > necessity for attempting to perform a 'walking meditation' since > ordinary, everyday walking is exactly the same and clear comprehension > is not subject to being forced to arise. > > Sincerely, > > Scott. ========================== I find this a very useful post, up to but not including your last, concluding, paragraph. The prior descriptions match well my experience in walking meditation, but not that during "ordinary, everyday walking," and the reason for the difference, I believe, is the difference in cetasikas arising under the two very different conventional circumstances. This is the way the matter seems to me. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) #74411 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 2:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Seeking discussion on meditation methods/techniques upasaka_howard Hi, Phil - In a message dated 7/16/07 9:28:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time, philco777@... writes: > Hi Howard > > Thanks. I'll probably have a go at it after my trip to Canada. I'd > like to sort out various approaches to mindfulness of the body, find > out how people approach it, hear what their teachers have had to say. > > Metta, > > Phil > ======================== I'll be happy to join in on the conversations, Phil. Have a great trip, BTW. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) #74412 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:15 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Walking and General Deportment of the Body scottduncan2 Dear Howard, Thanks for this view: H: "I find this a very useful post, up to but not including your last, concluding, paragraph. The prior descriptions match well my experience in walking meditation, but not that during "ordinary, everyday walking," and the reason for the difference, I believe, is the difference in cetasikas arising under the two very different conventional circumstances. This is the way the matter seems to me." Scott: The view, pushed to its limits, would suggest that there are two kinds of walking, and this is absurd - the view, that is. Citta is variegated at all times, hence, saying that it depends on cetasikas arising is correct as far as it goes, but amounts to a truism vis-a-vis walking. This would only mean that it is not the walk but the mental factors which matter, and this does not support the view proposed, to the contrary, it unravels it. There still remains the problematic assumption that one can, by walking in a way different from 'ordinary, everyday walking', switch on these different cetasikas. Not possible. Walking is walking is walking. Sincerely, Scott. #74413 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:31 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (63) nichiconn dear friends, 10. Ekaadasakanipaato 1. Kisaagotamiitheriigaathaava.n.nanaa part 5 txt: Saa gaathaapariyosaane arahatta.m paapu.nitvaa parikkhaaravala~nje paramukka.t.thaa hutvaa tiihi luukhehi samannaagata.m ciivara.m paarupitvaa vicari. Atha na.m satthaa jetavane nisinno bhikkhuniyo pa.tipaa.tiyaa .thaanantare .thapento luukhaciivaradhaariina.m agga.t.thaane .thapesi. Saa attano pa.tipatti.m paccavekkhitvaa "satthaara.m nissaaya mayaa aya.m viseso laddho"ti kalyaa.namittataaya pasa.msaamukhena imaa gaathaa abhaasi- 213. "Kalyaa.namittataa muninaa, loka.m aadissa va.n.nitaa; kalyaa.namitte bhajamaano, api baalo pa.n.dito assa. 214. "Bhajitabbaa sappurisaa, pa~n~naa tathaa va.d.dhati bhajantaana.m; bhajamaano sappurise, sabbehipi dukkhehi pamucceyya. 215. "Dukkha~nca vijaaneyya, dukkhassa ca samudaya.m nirodha.m; a.t.tha"ngika~nca magga.m, cattaaripi ariyasaccaani. 216. "Dukkho itthibhaavo, akkhaato purisadammasaarathinaa; sapattikampi hi dukkha.m, appekaccaa saki.m vijaataayo. 217. "Galake api kantanti, sukhumaaliniyo visaani khaadanti; janamaarakamajjhagataa, ubhopi byasanaani anubhonti. Pruitt: At the end of the verse, she attained Arahatship. She became preeminent in the use of the requisites, and she wandered, wearing a garment that was comprised of thre rough [robes]. Then the Teacher, seated in the Jeta Grove, when he was placing the bhikkhuniis according to special positions, placed her in the foremost position of those who wear rough robes. Looking over her attainment, she thought, "I attained this distinction through the support of the Buddha." And she spoke these verses in praise of the state of being a good friend: 213. The state of having good friends has been praised by the Sage with reference to the world. If he resorted to good friends, even a fool would be wise. 214. Good men are to be resorted to. In this way, the wisdom of those who resort to them increases. Resorting to good men, one would be released from all pains. 215. One should understand pain and the arising of pain and [its] cessation and the eightfold way - all the four noble paths. [Spoken by a yakkhinii:] 216-217. A woman's state has been said to be painful by the Charioteer of Men Who Are To Be Tamed. Even the state of being a co-wife is painful. Some, having given birth once, even cut their throats. Some tender ones take poisons. [Some] having entered the belly are murderers. Both groups suffer misfortunes. RD: When he had finished, she attained Arahantship. And becoming pre-eminent in ascetic habits, she was wont to wear raiment of triple roughness. Then the Master, seated in the Jeta Grove in conclave, and assigning rank of merit to the Bhikkhuniis, proclaimed her first among the wearers of rough raiment. And she, reflecting on what great things she had won, uttered this Psalm before the Master, in praise of friendship with the elect: Friendship with noble souls throughout the world The Sage hath praised. *314 A fool, in sooth, grows wise If he but entertain a noble friend. (213) Cleave to the men of worth! In them who cleave Wisdom doth grow; and in that pious love From all your sorrows shall ye be released. (214) Mark Sorrow well; mark ye how it doth come, And how it passes; mark the Eightfold Path That endeth woe, the Four great Ariyan Truths. (215) Woeful is woman's lot! hath he declared, Tamer and Driver of the hearts of men: Woeful when sharing home with hostile wives, Woeful when giving birth in bitter pain, Some seeking death, or e'er they suffer twice, (216) Piercing the throat; the delicate poison take. Woe too when mother-murdering embryo Comes not to birth, and both alike find death. (217) *314 Sa.myutta-Nikaaya, i. 87, v. 2, etc. ===tbc, connie #74414 From: "colette" Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:48 am Subject: Re: oddest of Querries ksheri3 Good Morning connie aka L.G. SAGE, Thanx for the clarification! on a side not, I don't have time to properly address you and your spin right now but I do want to recognize things you've said which certainly manifests PAST DHAMMA. And so, without further adu The poop is like this doll, I cognize that certain individuals are performing certain "ceremonials". I cognize that they are applying me as "the center of the circle", see John Lennon's version, or see "magick circle" or... I cognize that no matter what it is I do they are gonna apply me, myself, and I in the center of the circle as a means to THEIR ENDS. I cognize that THEIR ENDS are of a VALUE STRUCTURE, a building in which they live (thus we get a CASTE SYSTEM, and I am certainly applying the Aristocratic hallucinations they in the aristocracy have become victims to and addicted to, thus am working with their simple house of cards). And so we can see the entire Fraternity as being a single individual: Past Dhamma, Present Dhamma, and Future Dhamma, are not seperate they are a single dhamma. <...> gots ta go darlin'. Thanx for the re-assurance that I am still part of the "forest" and not a stand alone buddha. ;) lol toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "L G SAGE" wrote: <...> > connie: Now who's this megalomaniacal I? ;) first, names. the change is from dial-up to broadband. a gift from LGS to cbpj & set up while i was at work so i didn't have any input there, but the name umbrella more or less reflects our living arrangement anyway (i type, hearing her footfalls overhead). > other names -- tree-fairies :) <...> #74415 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 4:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Walking and General Deportment of the Body upasaka_howard Hi, Scott - In a message dated 7/16/07 10:16:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: > There still remains the problematic assumption that one can, by > walking in a way different from 'ordinary, everyday walking', switch > on these different cetasikas. Not possible. Walking is walking is > walking. > ====================== The difference is not in the walking, Scott, but in the mind. Dhamma practice is an internal matter. With metta, Howard #74416 From: "nidive" Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 8:56 am Subject: Re: Mindfulness of Walking and General Deportment of the Body nidive Hi Scott, > Walking is walking is walking. So is breathing is breathing is breathing. Are you aware of each and every of your in and out breaths even as you type those long messages of yours? If not, why? If yes, why? Swee Boon #74417 From: "colette" Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 8:51 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Walking and General Deportment of the Body ksheri3 Good Morning Howard, VERY GOOD! Scott, I urge you to contemplate what Howard has just told you about the meditation! Internally you see things differently from what they are externally. I think the key here is to recognize that cognition INTERNALLY must be done with care since there probably is a misinterpretation (cognition) of that which is external. Facets? Hmmmm, that's an interesting concept. I wonder how it relates to a kaliedescope. Or, is that a COLIDE-e-scope? Maybe it refers to diamonds and the blood it takes to obtain the diamonds, but then I'd get into THE PARADOX OF VALUE and it's Diamonds vs. Water conundrum. I'm not too sure if I used that word properly since it's more of an educated persons word such as the difference between Pali and Sanskrit. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Scott - > > In a message dated 7/16/07 10:16:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > scduncan@... writes: > > > There still remains the problematic assumption that one can, by > > walking in a way different from 'ordinary, everyday walking', switch > > on these different cetasikas. Not possible. Walking is walking is > > walking. > > > ====================== > The difference is not in the walking, Scott, but in the mind. Dhamma > practice is an internal matter. <....> #74418 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 10:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Walking and General Deportment of the Body upasaka_howard Hi, Colette (and Scott) - In a message dated 7/16/07 5:21:50 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ksheri3@... writes: > Good Morning Howard, > > VERY GOOD! Scott, I urge you to contemplate what Howard has just told > you about the meditation! > ========================= I don't want to push anything on Scott that he is uncomfortable with, but Colette, I do want to thank you for the kind words. :-) With metta, Howard #74419 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 5:07 pm Subject: Re: Mindfulness of Walking and General Deportment of the Body scottduncan2 Dear Swee Boon, Thanks for the reply: Me: "Walking is walking is walking." SB: "So is breathing is breathing is breathing. Are you aware of each and every of your in and out breaths even as you type those long messages of yours? If not, why? If yes, why?" Scott: Please make your point in the form of a declarative statement. In this way I can consider the merits of your point (or lack thereof). I don't respond to rhetorical questions, since they are essentially without substance. Sincerely, Scott. #74420 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 5:11 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What is the wrong view? (References from the MN anthology) lbidd2 Hi Colette, I still didn't understand most of what you said, but I got this: C: "Faith has no ability to profess ANYTHING!" L: Just a manner of speaking, poetic license. Often faith is a matter of trusting some concepts or some concepts arouse faith, or an image arouses faith. Faith is faith _in_ something, faith in the condition that conditions its arising. In a way faith is trust in goodness (kusala), a particular kind of consciousness. There is a level of understanding in that trust, not exactly insight knowledge, but understanding nevertheless. C: "We cognize something as being, right off the bat this goes AGAINST the objectivity of YOGACARA" L: I have a different understanding of yogacara. First, there's no self, so there can't be any mistakes. Second, there are no objects of consciousness, so "objectivity" doesn't compute. The rest is as it may be. Larry #74421 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 5:14 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Walking and General Deportment of the Body scottduncan2 Dear Howard, Thanks for the reply: Me: "There still remains the problematic assumption that one can, by walking in a way different from 'ordinary, everyday walking', switch on these different cetasikas. Not possible. Walking is walking is walking." H: "The difference is not in the walking, Scott, but in the mind. Dhamma practice is an internal matter." Scott: Should you wish to continue the discussion, could you please make specific points in reference to those I made earlier? The above is a) a truism, b) a platitude and, c) can be seen to contradict everything you said earlier about the 'walking' of 'walking meditation' being somehow qualitatively different than 'ordinary walking', (i.e., if what you say is true, there is no need for 'walking meditation' - walking is good enough). Sincerely, Scott. #74422 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 2:24 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Walking and General Deportment of the Body upasaka_howard Hi, Scott - In a message dated 7/16/07 8:17:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: > Dear Howard, > > Thanks for the reply: > > Me: "There still remains the problematic assumption that one can, by > walking in a way different from 'ordinary, everyday walking', switch > on these different cetasikas. Not possible. Walking is walking is > walking." > > H: "The difference is not in the walking, Scott, but in the mind. > Dhamma practice is an internal matter." > > Scott: Should you wish to continue the discussion, could you please > make specific points in reference to those I made earlier? > > The above is a) a truism, b) a platitude and, c) can be seen to > contradict everything you said earlier about the 'walking' of 'walking > meditation' being somehow qualitatively different than 'ordinary > walking', (i.e., if what you say is true, there is no need for > 'walking meditation' - walking is good enough). ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Umm, no thanks. It sounds more like a kind of jousting contest that something either of us is likely to benefit from, so, with repect, I decline. ------------------------------------------------ > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > > ======================== With metta, Howard #74423 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 6:32 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Walking and General Deportment of the Body scottduncan2 Dear Howard, Thanks you for: Howard: "Umm, no thanks. It sounds more like a kind of jousting contest that something either of us is likely to benefit from, so, with respect, I decline." Scott: Fair enough, Howard. I'm not interested in jousting. I learn from the mostly serious exchanges I have with others here, even when the views are divergent. I like to compare views as rigourously as possible. I don't happen to find that being faced with a dismissive platitude, like a pat on the head, is all that helpful. I won't suggest that this is done in the absence of any constructive points to make, but it just seems that way... Thank you, Howard. Sincerely, Scott. #74424 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:05 pm Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge indriyabala Hi Sarah (and Phil), - >T: Does the development of the four satipatthanas overcome desire and sorrow, or does the development of the four satipatthanas commence after disire and sorrow have been overcome? I asked the question because the are two different translations of the same Pali text. In the first translation the four satipatthanas commence "after having overcome desire and sorrow in regard to the world". In the second translation the development of the four satipatthanas overcomes desire and sorrow here and now (present tense). Since the Pali text is exactly the same, why are there two different cases? http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/soma/wayof.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.22.0.than.html I have read your reply (reproduced below), but it does not help me to answer the above question. .......................................... NEW S: The overcoming of desire and sorrow in the quote above refers to the mundane path when desire and sorrow are temporarily 'overcome' through the development of satipatthana. From the comy to the Satipatthana Sutta (Soma transl): " 'Having overcome' refers to the discipline of knocking out an evil quality by its opposite good (that is by dealing with each category of evil separately) or through the overcoming of evil part by part [tada"ngavinaya] and through the disciplining or the overcoming of the passions by suppression in absorption [vikkhambhana vinaya]." "Preliminary practice connected with the mundane path of mindfulness is pointed out by the commentator her." Of course desire is only fully overcome at the stage of arahant. Pls let me know if I've missed anything here Metta, Sarah ................ Tep ==== #74425 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 8:11 pm Subject: satipatthaana and sati+upatthaana philofillet Hi all You probably know about this already, but I was interested to read this from BB's commentarial notes to MN 10: "The word satipatthaana is a compound term. The first part, sati (snip explanation of sati.) The second part is explained in two ways : either as a shortened form of upattthaana, meaning "setting up" or "establishing" - here, of mindfulness; or as patthaana, meaning "domain" or "foundation." - again, of mindfulness. Thus the four satipatthaanas may be understood as either the four ways of setting up mindfulness or as the four objective domains of mindfulness, to be amplified in the rest of the sutta. The former seems to be the etymologically correct derivation (confirmed by the sanskrit smrtyupasthaana) but the Pali commentators, while admitting both explanations, have a predilection for the latter." So one little reduced vowel could explain a lot about differing approaches to satipatthana. Also could give pause to those who say that studying Pali is just a distraction and doesn't help to get at the heart of the Buddha's teaching. Metta, Phil #74426 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 8:41 pm Subject: Re: satipatthaana and sati+upatthaana kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > > Hi all > > You probably know about this already, but I was interested to > read this from BB's commentarial notes to MN 10: > > "The word satipatthaana is a compound term. The first part, sati > (snip explanation of sati.) The second part is explained in two > ways : either as a shortened form of upattthaana, meaning "setting > up" or "establishing" - here, of mindfulness; or as patthaana, > meaning "domain" or "foundation." - again, of mindfulness. ... Hi Phil, I've just deleted my entire reply because I think it missed the point. Can you explain for me the differences between the two definitions? Do they involve the formal practice v's no-control dichotomy? Ken H #74427 From: "colette" Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 3:58 pm Subject: Re: oddest of Querries ksheri3 Good Day L.G.Sage, connie, FINALLY. > > connie: Now who's this megalomaniacal I? ;) colette: I was under the impression that you stuck with your usual moniker, lable, if I would've known you suffer from Multiple Personalities I would've taken steps to keep this in mindfulness. ;) It's like that old line men use at the office or at work: "I'm a completely different person outside the office" which, to me, says "Hi, I have mental illness, don't know who I am, want to be whatever they pay me to be, and will do anything for money, by the way, would you have sex with me tonight and tomorrow?" ----------------------------- Boy do you come with the repetoire! ------------------ first, names. the change is from dial-up to broadband. a gift from LGS to cbpj & set up while i was at work so i didn't have any input there, but the name umbrella more or less reflects our living arrangement anyway (i type, hearing her footfalls overhead). > other names -- tree-fairies :) the ironwood- or naaga- aka fairy- tree. I don't remember whether I answered before that arahats, snakes, elephants, yakkhas and mountains or forests could all be called naagas. Glad you liked the bedtime story. Strictly speaking, it wasn't really anything to do with paccekabuddhas other than that even they have to have heard a sammasambuddha's teaching in former times. colette: I interpreted the story of the tree fairies as having to do with upcoming events: that I was going to be under an attack and that if I was vanquished, terminated, then I could still remember that you accept me as being part of the forest and not simply just one of the trees. Pratyekabuddha, is that in Pali or Sanskrit? Well, never the matter since if I go and look up paccekabuddhas then I'll find out anyway, huh? I got a lot of little wikipedia things at home that relate to you and your jest at me, at one time, concerning things I said that reminded you of the Sarvastivadan? I still remember that I owe you something on that, an explanation or something like that. Gotta clue what post it was? toodles, colette #74428 From: "colette" Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 5:44 pm Subject: Yogacara only ksheri3 Hi Larry, We can deal with your lack of understanding later, anytime other than now since the computer can be taken away in a heartbeat. I can also deal with the response you gave to what you do understand: > L: Just a manner of speaking, poetic license. Often faith is a matter of > trusting some concepts or some concepts arouse faith, or an image > arouses faith. Faith is faith _in_ something, faith in the condition > that conditions its arising. In a way faith is trust in goodness > (kusala), a particular kind of consciousness. There is a level of > understanding in that trust, not exactly insight knowledge, but > understanding nevertheless. > > C: "We cognize something as being, right off the bat this goes AGAINST > the objectivity of YOGACARA" > > L: I have a different understanding of yogacara. First, there's no self, > so there can't be any mistakes. Second, there are no objects of > consciousness, so "objectivity" doesn't compute. The rest is as it may > be. colette: the big picture says that you just proved my point of how, right off the bat, I go and screw up my concept of Yogacara. Thanks. So lets get knit-picky, shall we? "... there's no self, so there can't be any mistakes" ouch No self in terms of Svabhava, internal self existance. The transient view still applies where the sentient being IS for the moment. In that moment things can happen. Kusala, akusala, and neither kulsala or akusala. Karma is either created or destroyed. "...there are no objects of consciousness..." again, close but not quite, at least in my interpretation. Atoms exist and atoms come together to make objects but only temporarily. I wish I could read Jaq. Derrida's book Difference, it's a mind trip for sure, gives me a headache when I tried to read some parts people used to discuss things with. The conditioning a person receives from the time they're born creates a continuous process of cause & effect that maintains a single way of constructing concepts. An object is, in the case I'm suggesting, an object is a concept. Take for instance the former Soviet Union; as it changed from a command economy to a market economy the people could not make the transition because they were taught from womb to tomb how to do everything. In the case of the U.S.A. the same exact principle applies where the mind is taught from womb to tomb how to mentally construct everything. <...> There are objects of consciousness, it's just a matter of what the being does with their consciousness. toodles, colette #74429 From: "Sukinder" Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 9:21 pm Subject: Re: What other teacher teaches against selecting a meditation object? sukinderpal Hi Colette, Thanks for your response. =========== Colette: You have some strong opinions here. I'm glad you tempered your disgust with Mahayana, Vajrayana, and Zen, by exhibiting your lack of appreciation for the Theravadan. Suk: (-: When we reduce it all to "view", which is what I like to do, then labels are distracting and often misleading. According to my understanding, there is only one correct view, and this is the one accompanying the N8FP. There is the supramundane Path, the mundane which is any moment of satipatthana, and there is what is called right `intellectual right understanding' i.e. pariyatti. It is reference to this that I make my statement. Obviously one can't expect to have "right practice" issuing forth from some wrong theory about the way things are, say theism, isn't it? In terms of what the Buddha taught, likewise, one can't expect right practice to result from a wrong "interpretation" of the Teachings. And this is reason for my being pessimistic about the numbers. Unless of course as most Buddhist do, instead of understanding `practice' to be a reference to a momentary conditioned reality, namely satipatthana, they see it as a conventional activity re: sitting and walking meditation. In which case it does not then matter so much if whether one has any `correct intellectual understanding'. One has only to follow the instructions of the meditation teacher. So where does one draw the line then? Taken to the limit, it seems that one does not even have to hear the actual Teachings, isn't it? Is the Dhamma so easily reducible to this? To me, it is the very lack of understanding at this intellectual level, that ideas about sitting and walking meditation originates and thrives….;-) =========== Colette: Could you develope the last paragraph a little more by gleaning it down to specific problems you have with Howard's out look. I have problems with it myself as was evident when I compared his advocacy of the Theravadan methodology to that of the handing down through tradition the remains of dead bodies buried in cemetaries and landfill, garbage dumps, that the now dead bodies created when they were verticle. Suk: I really liked the way you expressed this here, if I understood you right to begin with, which I must admit does not always happen ;-). I will be writing my response to Howard after this; there you may get your answer. ============ Colette: Thanks for the approach. Suk: And thanks to you and your often refreshing outlook. (-: Metta, Sukinder #74430 From: "Sukinder" Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 9:26 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: What other teacher teaches against selecting a meditation object? sukinderpal Hi Howard (Scott and Ken), ============== > What is it in the `walking meditation' that makes it different from normal > walking? What are the particular conditions involved in that "earth and > air" are observable in the one and not possible in the other? Howard: What is different is one's state of mind. What is involved is specific intention, attention, nondistractedness, focus, intensity, and settledness. But talking about this doesn't come close to properly conveying the facts S: This I take to be the same as in the case of `sitting meditation'. What you are then saying is that `sustained and concentrated' activity is part of what leads to sati and panna finally arising at some point and this is not possible in the normal daily activities. If so then one question is, how do you explain the fact that most of the Buddha's disciples experienced insight and even enlightenment while lietning to the Teachings or while going about their business of daily living? You may say that they had prior samatha / jhana practice, which I don't see any connection. But even if I accepted the explanation, the fact still remains that, during the moments prior to their insight, there was *no* intention and any deliberation to pay attention and focus on any chosen object. This is clearly so in the case of those who were "listening" to the Dhamma. Your explanation does not make any sense to me. The following is mine: Panna which necessarily takes nama or rupa as object, or the concept of these, accumulates. Therefore, at any time and place there being in fact only nama or rupa arising and falling, by natural decisive support condition, panna can arise to know any reality. This can be bhavanamaya panna or it can be cintamaya panna, even the latter is conditioned by some sign of a "reality". Concepts on the other hand being `unreal' can only be thought about. To take this unreality `for real' is the function of ignorance and wrong view. In other words the `foot' is the same foot, by virtue of thinking, likewise the lifting and placing it down. This does not involve sati and panna, so why go along with it? How could such noting then ever lead to insight? On the other hand, when the understanding becomes progressively firm about there being only the present dhammas, even if satipatthana almost never arises, because one does not then opt for any `method' involving noting of concepts, there is still chance of sati and panna to arise at any time. Ideas about `methods' seem to involve abstractions of what is heard here and there at the expense of what in fact is arising and falling in the present moment. `Meditation objects' as reference points for example, are alluring, unlike the reference to seeing now, hearing now, thinking now etc. The latter is subtle and hard to see and may therefore give one a feeling of helplessness, unlike the former which allows for the illusion of achievability and a sense of `getting somewhere'. But I think it is better to know that panna has not been accumulated enough to condition satipatthana and yet retain the confidence about there being only NOW. Better this than allow greed and wrong view to drag one to follow a method, one that promises result we are happier with. ================ > You know my position with regard to Mahayana, Vajrayana, Zen and so > on, namely that I have little or no respect for their views. Howard: So? Why is that an issue? My point was that walking meditation is a practice of all schools of Buddhism and one of long standing. S: And my point is that, because all these schools do this coming from differing `views', what lead them all to this same conclusion, can't be due to wisdom. And your bringing this up to justify walking meditation, would not likewise be due to any right understanding…..sorry. ================ Howard: In any case, I'm not looking for a debate on this. I rely on the Satipatthana, Anapanasati, and Kayagatasati Suttas for my meditation instruction. I am content to continue my practice and to further it, but I have no intention to try to force such practice on anyone else. If you don't believe the Buddha urged meditation but only urged thinking over his teachings, that's fine with me. Whatever suits you and whatever is helpful to you is great. S: Fair enough. And believe me, if Phil starts his `meditation corner' with you and others participating, I won't bother to look in. Life is too short…:-) ================ > that they came to be at all, is reflection of wrong understanding of the > original Teachings, and lack of respect for it. What others may consider > small difference which can be overlooked, I consider crucial, one which > operates at the level of "view". And view is either `right' or it is > `wrong'. > This then also means that I disagree with 90+% of the interpretations > within the Theravada itself. ;-) Howard: You have every right to think however you think. S: Is this because the way I express myself that no room is left for any discussion? If not, how would you like it if you got the same kind of response each time you expressed an opinion? ================ > In the above two quotes, you are saying to the effect, that neither Scott > nor Ken, because they don't "do" walking mediation, will ever "know" > earth or air elements or know the intentions involved while walking. I of > course say that because both Scott and Ken give great importance to > the process of `correcting one's views' with reference to the original > texts, and which have allowed them so far, to have a more or less > correct attitude toward present moment experiences, that theirs is the > *right* cause which would lead ultimately to the right result, > namely "knowing the `elements' as they are". Howard: I do indeed maintain that the actual nature of things cannot be known by ordinary observation. S: You mean to say, the ordinary worldling's observation? I agree that this is not accompanied by sati and panna. But isn't this exactly what is taken to be part of the practice of meditators, or at least it starts with it? After all one can't expect the kind of observation to suddenly change merely with any "suggestion" to observe, no? If so, why go along with this ordinary observation, and why should this lead to any good in the long run? What additional factors come in and how? To me, belief in another time and place is not the right cause for the panna which `understands' the *present* moment, to arise. And belief in a method / conventional activity is not the right cause for the arising of panna which understands that *this moment is conditioned*. I know that you and others believe otherwise. ================ Howard: In my reply to Scott, I criticized judging what is unobserved, and in my post to Ken, I pointed out that the realities underlying the conventional activity of walking can only be actually known by looking at them with enhanced mental vision. S: It is about understanding / insight and not about "experiencing". It is not like Scott or Ken has to gather information as one does a conventional reality in order to assess anything. Views are views and this can be known to some extent by panna, when expressed. Labeling certain experiences as "enhanced mental vision" does not make it less relevant the problem of underlying views. ================ Howard: I believe this on the basis of what I consider to be common sense and on the basis of experience. I see no reason for apologizing for reporting that. But you and Scott and Ken are certainly free to doubt the correctness of my perception with regard to this matter. S: Everyone considers their own reasoning to be based on "common sense", not only those who study the Dhamma. But as students of Dhamma, we have the greatest guide and mirror to look into and assess our position. ================ > On the other hand, yours and those of the Mahayanists etc, Howard: This witch-hunt approach that you and others have applied to TG and me would be sickening were it not so laughable. I am not a Mahayanist. But if I were, that would not be a basis for attack. S: I think that you are overreacting, and so was TG recently with Andrew's comment. I don't think he or anyone else who brings up Mahayana is pointing to anything more than just some particular wrong view. For sure I didn't even think to label you Mahayana or anything. Mahayana is Mahayana, but I would hesitate to call anyone a Mahayanist, except out of convenience. After all I believe that all of us have accumulated more than a few different "wrong views" and that any particular one of these can be conditioned to arise at anytime. So it is all a momentary thing. Howard, I realize that the above is far from being `metta-filled'. But neither was your response to me. But I think we can learn to better get used to each other, maybe..? ;-). With metta, Sukinder #74431 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 9:37 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: satipatthana as island of refuge sarahprocter... Hi Tep & all, A little more research on your good question about the Pali phrase: --- Tep Sastri wrote: > >T: Does the development of the four satipatthanas overcome desire > and sorrow, or does the development of the four satipatthanas > commence after disire and sorrow have been overcome? > > I asked the question because the are two different translations of the > same Pali text. In the first translation the four satipatthanas > commence "after having overcome desire and sorrow in regard to the > world". In the second translation the development of the four > satipatthanas overcomes desire and sorrow here and now (present > tense). Since the Pali text is exactly the same, why are there two > different cases? > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/soma/wayof.html > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.22.0.than.html .... S: This is the Pali: "idha bhikkhave bhikkhu kaaye kaayaanupassii viharati aataapii sampajaano satimaa vineyya loke abhijjhaadomanassa"m." Transl A) Soma's above: "Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu lives contemplating the body in the body, ardent, clearly comprehending (it) and mindful (of it), having overcome, in this world, covetousness and grief; Transl B) TB's above: "There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. Buddhadatta dict: Vineyya (abs of vineti): having removed,..... Walshe C) in DN transl: ".......having put aside hankering and fretting in the world" Nanamoli & Bodhi D) in MN transl: "......having put away covetousness and grief for the world." Nanamoli E) in Sammohavinodani, revised by L.S. Cousins: "'vineyya loke abhijjhaa-domanassa"m' ('having put away covetousness and grief regarding the world') in order to point out the factors to be abandoned. Herein, 'vineyya' ("having put away") [means] having put away by means of putting away through substitution of opposite qualities, and by means of putting away through suppression." .... >S: The overcoming of desire and sorrow in the quote above > refers to the mundane path when desire and sorrow are > temporarily 'overcome' through the development of satipatthana. > > From the comy to the Satipatthana Sutta (Soma transl): > > " 'Having overcome' refers to the discipline of knocking out an evil > quality by its opposite good (that is by dealing with each category of > evil separately) or through the overcoming of evil part by part > [tada"ngavinaya] and through the disciplining or the overcoming of the > passions by suppression in absorption [vikkhambhana vinaya]." > > "Preliminary practice connected with the mundane path of mindfulness > is pointed out by the commentator here." > > Of course desire is only fully overcome at the stage of arahant. ... S: Let me know if this helps/doesn't help. Metta, Sarah ======== #74432 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 10:12 pm Subject: Jousting /was Mindfulness of Walking and General Deportment of the Body kenhowardau Hi Scott (and all), I wonder if the heady days are over. Spirited debates on the 'formal practice v's no-control' issue are certainly less frequent than they used to be. Perhaps we no-controllers will have to learn to talk to each other. :-) DSG has never encouraged the "Well said, sir" "Me too" "I agree" type of post that clogs up other lists. And with good reason. But, more to the point, there is a certain indelicacy about correcting, or mildly disagreeing with, someone who is trying to express the same basic understanding as oneself. It seems impolite. Almost indecent! But I don't want to rush into anything: don't reply to this unless you disagree. :-) Ken H #74433 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 11:28 pm Subject: Re: satipatthaana and sati+upatthaana philofillet Hi Ken > I've just deleted my entire reply because I think it missed the > point. Can you explain for me the differences between the two > definitions? Do they involve the formal practice v's no-control > dichotomy? It just seems that sati + patthaana is more about the objective field, and since the commentaries "have a predeliction" (sp?) for this interpretation of the word, is there more of an emphasis in the commentaries on studying dhammas in detail? And is this seen in the pariyatti = >>> patipati dynamic, the attention to developing one's understanding of dhammas on an intellectual level, and studying them in daily life to have deeper understanding? (And did pariyatti = >>> patipati first appear in the commentaries?) Whereas the sati + uppathaana interpretation puts more of an emphasis on satipatthana as an...activity? Maybe this is why Bhikkhu Bodhi teaches satipatthana in terms of "exercises" that one carries out intentionally, since it can be implied from that passage I posted that he prefers the sati + uppathaana interpretation? Obviously there can't be "exercises" without objects that are understood, but does this differing interpretation of the roots of the word lead to somewhat different approaches to satipatthana? I have no idea. Just found it interesting. I suppose it ties in to the formal practice vs. no-control dichotomy, but I'm not going there, for the time being at least. But you're right, I guess I was getting at that when I posted. My main intention was to dig the Pali a little and use the "aa" spelling of satipatthaana which looks cooler. Metta, Phil #74434 From: "Phil" Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 12:37 am Subject: Re: Jousting /was Mindfulness of Walking and General Deportment of the Body philofillet Hi Ken > DSG has never encouraged the "Well said, sir" "Me too" "I agree" type > of post that clogs up other lists. And with good reason. I remember Rob M once said "I never learned anything from someone I agreed with" , or words to that effect, to praise debate, but I think there is a lot to be said for encouraging others with a friendly "me too" or "I agree." It's not just "nice" - it has a reinforcing impact that drives the Buddha's teaching deeper into our lives I think. This is also why I think "parroting", as it is called, shouldn't be discouraged (and shouldn't be called "parroting") because I think just repeating a teaching has a reinforcing impact. Does the reinforcing impact of a friendly "me too" or "I agree" from someone we respect contribute in some small way to the weakening of hatred, greed and delusion? If so, it is good?@and shouldn't be underestimated. Metta, Phil p.s I hope this post might earn me consideration for promotion from white-haired boy back to golden-haired boy. #74435 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:22 am Subject: Re: Jousting /was Mindfulness of Walking and General Deportment of the Body kenhowardau Hi Phil, ---------- KH: > >DSG has never encouraged the "Well said, sir" "Me too" "I agree"type of post that clogs up other lists. And with good reason. Ph: > I remember Rob M once said "I never learned anything from someone I agreed with" , or words to that effect, to praise debate, but I think there is a lot to be said for encouraging others with a friendly "me too" or "I agree." It's not just "nice" - it has a reinforcing impact that drives the Buddha's teaching deeper into our lives I think. ----------- I agree. :-) Rob was, no doubt, using exaggeration to make a point. But the type of post that I was referring to - and that is frowned upon by the moderators - just says "I agree" (or even "Sadhu, sadhu, sadhu") without adding anything of substance. The practice gets out of hand until the point is reached where *not* sending a silly platitude amounts to some kind of criticism. -------------------- Ph: > This is also why I think "parroting", as it is called, shouldn't be discouraged (and shouldn't be called "parroting") because I think just repeating a teaching has a reinforcing impact. --------------------- Me too! And that is what I have in mind for when DSG runs out of formal meditators to argue with. When I use the word "parroting" it is a way of acknowledging that I am loosely quoting someone, and that I don't have a very deep knowledge of the subject. ----------------------- Ph: > Does the reinforcing impact of a friendly "me too" or "I agree" from someone we respect contribute in some small way to the weakening of hatred, greed and delusion? If so, it is good and shouldn't be underestimated. ------------------------ Sadhu, sadhu, sadhu! Ken H PS: Sorry, white haired boy it is! 'Golden' is a later adaptation - no doubt preferred by people who think white denotes old age. There are already too many later adaptations to deal with at DSG. :-) #74436 From: "Phil" Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 3:07 am Subject: No way not to seek emotional comfort in Dhamma philofillet Hi Sukin (and all) Allow me to interject >If so then one question > is, how do you explain the fact that most of the Buddha's disciples > experienced insight and even enlightenment while lietning to the > Teachings or while going about their business of daily living? I am told so often that people in the Buddha's day had better understanding. Surely you've used this argument yourself in disputing the value of people these days studying suttas and feeling confident in their understanding. These anecdotes about people hearing the Buddha's teaching and becoming enlightened - I suspect they are irrelevant to people in this day and age. And I base that statement on the basic AS teaching that people had better conditions for understanding the Dhamma when hearing it directly from the Buddha, or in the Buddha's age. Paying too much attention to those anecdotes is dangerous, I think. A form of craving wisdom that is way beyond one. Best to get to work on the gross defilements and drop any expectations about sudden enlightenment in the midst of daily life activities. I imagine you'll deny that you there are such expectations, but I think they are implicit in AS's approach to Dhamma, despite all the talk of aeons, and patience. I think it's impossible for people in this day and age *not* to have expectations about what Dhamma will bring them. My expectations are about weakening the power of defilements, and perhaps this will lead to a more favourable rebirth. What are your expectations? I think we all have expectations if we are honest, because we all have mortal fear - we're not beyond that. But I could be wrong. Sukin, I've been bad about responding to you but I promise I'll respond to anything you write to this. If possible, keep it fairly short. (e.g about the length that I've written here.) That would be appreciated. Anyone else feel free to this idea of mine that came out of writing this (I had no idea the post would lead to this.) I think we should be honest that we all have expectations of what Dhamma will bring us, because we all have mortal fear and are seeking some kind of comfort from Dhamma. If we deny it, don't we risk turning the deepest teachings into a disguised form of feel-goodism? I'd rather be open and straight- forward about my need for feel-goodism. I think we all need feel- goodism, release from the suffering caused by mortal fear, the kind that hits in the middle of the night. Meditation as taught and practiced these days provides various forms of solace and freedom from fear, and this helps provide conditions for some very small possibility of deeper understanding coming about. For awhile I was finding my comfort in studying Abdhidhamma, latching on to intellectual understanding of the deepest teaching and finding emotional comfort in having access to such deep teachings. I really don't mean to say that that is true for everyone who studies Abhdihamma intensively, but isn't it a possibility? Metta, Phil #74437 From: "Phil" Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 3:26 am Subject: Re: No way not to seek emotional comfort in Dhamma philofillet Hi again > Meditation as taught and > practiced these days provides various forms of solace and freedom from > fear, Like most of this post, and my posts in general, this was an overstatement. I don't know much abouthow meditation is taught and practiced these days, so how could I write this. (Come to think of it, the same could apply to many comments people make about meditation.) Metta, Phil #74438 From: "dhammasaro" Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 3:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Angry Monks dhammasaro To good friend Sarah, et al Sarah: Are you back in Texas now or still in Bangkok? Chuck: I am home in Texas, in what we call "the Hill Country" west of San Antonio. Been here since May. Last June I was to return to Bangkok with my senior teacher; but, I became ill - no doubt, it was a mental illness, called "home sickness." I brought my senior teacher to Texas to observe I was not telling too, too many "Texas Tall Tales." I will return to Bangkok in August. Sarah: It would have been nice if you could have joined us recently there for our discussions. Chuck: Well, I did not often get on-line. Also, I usually stayed at my wat (monastery). Once a week, at 8 AM, I did go with my senior teacher on a twelve-hour shift attending His Holiness The Supreme Patriarch. Perhaps, when I return next month I will meet many of you. Please provide details. Sarah: So now you're catching up here again, you can 'argue' as you like with us. Chuck: Well, "argue" as in intense and precise debate and/or discussion. Not, as usually used in the vernacular. Sarah: I recall you were going to ordain under your old teacher at a meditation temple near Bangkok, but forget the details. Chuck: Yes, I ordained April, 2006 at Wat Bovoranives Vihara about a kilometer from the Democracy Monument. I was the only non-Thai among the 50 ordained in our group. It was for 21 days. We spent seven days at a meditation center near Bangkok. I requested to remain a monk. Sarah: I'm sure many would be interested to hear more about it all if you can be bothered. Chuck: Thank you. No bother at all. Sarah, you and members please help me with questions so I may interestingly describe my experiences. Sarah: Again, good to welcome you back! Chuck: Warm thanks. Metta. > --- dhammasaro wrote: > > > > Good friends, > > > > Please forgive this very belated message on this topic. I am catching up on this valuable study group. > > > > IMHO, monks are simply human beings trying to be better persons... at least in my experience... most have not achieved the different levels... hence, they have many human frailties... some find being a monk is an easier existence than being a rice farmer!!! This is my experience in being allowed to be a monk for a year and a week. Last April this ole, argumentive Texican requested permission to disrobe after only one year of study as I was a "temporary" monk. I disrobed on 6 May 2550 (2007) at my wat in Bangkok. > > > > Please remember the monks in your chanting/meditation/prayer. They need it as much as we laypersons (householders). > #74439 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 5:34 am Subject: Re: Jousting /was Mindfulness of Walking and General Deportment of the Body scottduncan2 Dear Ken, Thanks for the reply: K: "I wonder if the heady days are over. Spirited debates on the 'formal practice v's no-control' issue are certainly less frequent than they used to be. Perhaps we no-controllers will have to learn to talk to each other. :-)" Scott: This latter will occur only if conditions are in place and, of course, will not be 'talking' in the ultimate sense because this is only mind-produced matter and elements arising and falling away so fast as to be unable to think of the whole sentence and as to be beyond control, not to mention that there are no 'others' with which to 'talk'... Perhaps, now that I think of this, what you suggest can never happen! K: "DSG has never encouraged the "Well said, sir" "Me too" "I agree" type of post that clogs up other lists. And with good reason." Scott: Good. Pseudo-talk-like-the-stereotypic-ideal-of-a-buddhist is tedious. Politeness is still alright, eh? But maybe the time of the polemical debate is over. I've alienated myself, perhaps, by taking Howard to task for giving up on discussing through the use of platitudes; and by taking Swee Boon to task for producing mysterious-sounding koan-like pronouncements rather than making a point. I saw these as oft used devices, hardly conducive to reasoned discussion. In both cases, I'm sure there were solid views to exchange, but these were not given. Maybe you're right, though - there is a shift in the nature of that old debate. I guess one will have to wait and see... K: "...But, more to the point, there is a certain indelicacy about correcting, or mildly disagreeing with, someone who is trying to express the same basic understanding as oneself. It seems impolite. Almost indecent!" Scott: I recall that you and I sort of disagreed over the way in which momentariness can be understood. I think I suggested that the view you express seemed too rigidly held, or some such controversially disagreeable nonsense. That wasn't so bad, although we stopped for some reason - perhaps it was due to the sheer indecency of it! I don't mind being corrected - I want to make straight the views and I want to learn. I think of the replies that come as views, not people. But I prefer to be faced with corrections that have substance, i.e. more information and references and the like for me to sink my teeth into. Then I can go off and structure my study based on the points that are coming up in a given thread. This is how I use the list to study ("Dhamma Study Group"). Maybe I'm just a conceited, over-blown wind-bag...well, yeah I am, but still, why not discuss with substance? K: "But I don't want to rush into anything: don't reply to this unless you disagree. :-)" Scott: Of course I disagree! I just don't know with what yet.. Sincerely, Scott. #74440 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What other teacher teaches against selecting a meditation object? upasaka_howard Hi, Sukin - In a message dated 7/17/07 12:27:39 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sukinder@... writes: > S: Fair enough. And believe me, if Phil starts his `meditation corner' > with you and others participating, I won't bother to look in. Life is too > short…:-) > ============================= Sukin, did you actually read my negative reply to the idea of (even somewhat) closed "corners"? This doesn't sound like it. BTW, Sukin, I'm not replying to the rest of your post, because I'm really getting weary of debate as a substitute for discusion, and I intend to avoid it. I have NO interest in scoring points. I have no interest in arguing with anyone. I wish to be done with that. It is nothing but a vexation. With metta, Howard #74441 From: "dhammasaro" Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 6:19 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Walking and General Deportment of the Body dhammasaro Good friends, may I provide an excerpt from the Maha-Parinibbana Sutta of the Digha Nakaya? The excerpt is: Mindfulness and Clear Comprehension 13. Then the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Mindful should you dwell, bhikkhus, clearly comprehending; thus I exhort you. 14. "And how, bhikkhus, is a bhikkhu mindful? When he dwells contemplating the body in the body, earnestly, clearly comprehending, and mindfully, after having overcome desire and sorrow in regard to the world; and when he dwells contemplating feelings in feelings, the mind in the mind, and mental objects in mental objects, earnestly, clearly comprehending, and mindfully, after having overcome desire and sorrow in regard to the world, then is he said to be mindful. 15. "And how, bhikkhus, does a bhikkhu have clear comprehension? When he remains fully aware of his coming and going, his looking forward and his looking away, his bending and stretching, his wearing of his robe and carrying of his bowl, his eating and drinking, masticating and savoring, his defecating and urinating, his walking, standing, sitting, lying down, going to sleep or keeping awake, his speaking or being silent, then is he said to have clear comprehension. "Mindful should you dwell, bhikkhus, clearly comprehending; thus I exhort you." [End Excerpt] From web site: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.16.1- 6.vaji.html It appears to me in paragraph 15 the Buddha speaks of meditation where he states "clearly comprehending." Among other items, the items "his walking, standing, sitting, lying down" implies meditation. I was taught several techniques in each of the meditation positions: sitting, walking, standing and lying down (reclining). In addition, another form of meditation is trying to be mindful of every action. That is, (1) not doing actions automatically and (2) not trying to do two or more things at the same time. For example, I try to watch the television and talk to my wife at the same time. metta (maitri), Chuck --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Dear Howard, > > Thanks you for: > > Howard: "Umm, no thanks. It sounds more like a kind of jousting > contest that something either of us is likely to benefit from, so, > with respect, I decline." > > Scott: Fair enough, Howard. I'm not interested in jousting. I learn > from the mostly serious exchanges I have with others here, even when > the views are divergent. I like to compare views as rigourously as > possible. > > I don't happen to find that being faced with a dismissive platitude, > like a pat on the head, is all that helpful. I won't suggest that > this is done in the absence of any constructive points to make, but it > just seems that way... > > Thank you, Howard. > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > #74442 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 6:54 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (63) nichiconn dear friends, 10. Ekaadasakanipaato 1. Kisaagotamiitheriigaathaava.n.nanaa part 6 txt: 218. "Upavija~n~naa gacchantii, addasaaha.m pati.m mata.m; panthamhi vijaayitvaana, appattaava saka.m ghara.m. 219. "Dve puttaa kaalakataa, patii ca panthe mato kapa.nikaaya; maataa pitaa ca bhaataa, .dayhanti ca ekacitakaaya.m. Pruitt: [Therii Kisaa-Gotamii, speaking with reference to Therii Pa.taacaaraa:] 218. Going along, about to bring forth, I saw my husband dead. Having given birth on the path, [I had] not yet arrived at my own house. 219. Two sons dead and a husband dead upon the path for miserable [me]. [My] mother and father were burning upon one [funeral] pyre. RD: 'Returning *315 home to give birth to my child, I saw my husband in the jungle die. Nor could I reach my kin ere travail came. (218) My baby boys I lost, my husband too. And when in misery I reached my home, Lo! where together on a scanty pyre, My mother, father, and my brother burn!' (219) *315 She here incorporates the story of Pa.taacaaraa (Ps. xlvii.) in her own Psalm, as if more fully to utter, as 'Woman,' the pageant and tragedy of the woeful possibilities inherent in 'woman's lot,' whereof her own case was but a phase. Criticism may discern herein another 'fault' - geologically speaking - in the historical concordance between verses and commentary. Yet here, anyway, is a feature that no poem of purely literary construction would ever have borne. And in aesthetic intensity the poem gains wondrously through this groundwave of deeper tragedy underlying Kisaa-gotamii's own sorrow, and through the blended victory in the fine paean at the end. txt: 220. "Khii.nakuliine kapa.ne, anubhuuta.m te dukha.m aparimaa.na.m; assuu ca te pavatta.m, bahuuni ca jaatisahassaani. 221. "Vasitaa susaanamajjhe, athopi khaaditaani puttama.msaani; hatakulikaa sabbagarahitaa, matapatikaa amatamadhigacchi.m. 222. "Bhaavito me maggo, ariyo a.t.tha"ngiko amatagaamii; nibbaana.m sacchikata.m, dhammaadaasa.m avekkhi.mha.m. 223. "Ahamamhi kantasallaa, ohitabhaaraa kata~nhi kara.niiya.m; kisaagotamii therii, vimuttacittaa ima.m bha.nii"ti. Pruitt: [Therii Kisaa-Gotamii, speaking with reference to herself:] 220. Miserable woman, with family annihilated, you have suffered immeasurable pain;* and you have shed tears for many thousands of births. 221. Then as one who lived in a cemetary, I ate the flesh of my sons.** [Now,] with my family destroyed, despised by all, with [my] husband dead, I attained the undying. 222. I have developed the noble eightfold path leading to the undying. I have realized quenching. I have looked in the mirror of the Doctrine. 223. I have my dart cut out, my burden laid down. I have done that which was to be done. Therii Kisaa-Gotamii, with mind completely released, has said this. *Dukha.m (m.c., = dukkha.m), see EV II, p. 1xxvii, 65(b). ** Vasitaa susaanamajjhe atho pi khaaditaani puttama.msaani. "Then" (atho pi) could perhaps be understood as "back then," although the expression usually indicates continuation in a story. Thii 221 (p.239) has passi.m for vasitaa, and this line is translated as follows in EV II: "Then I saw the flesh of my sons being eaten in the midst of the cemetery." RD: O wretched, ruined woman! all this weight Of sorrows hast thou suffered, shed these tears Through weary round of many thousand lives. (220) I too have seen where, in the charnel-field, Devoure'd was my baby's tender flesh. *316 Yet she, her people slain, herself outcast, Her husband dead, hath thither come Where death is not! (221) Lo! I have gone Up on the Ariyan, on the Eightfold Path That goeth to the state ambrosial. *317 Nibbana have I realized, and gazed Into the Mirror of the holy Norm. (222) I, even I, am heale'd of my hurt, Low is my burden laid, my task is done, My heart is wholly set at liberty. I, sister Kisaa-gotamii, have uttered this! (223) *316 The Commentary names dogs, jackals, tigers, panthers, cats, etc., as the scavengers of corpses thus exposed. *317 This line in Pali is simply amatagaamii, going to the ambrosial, or the not-dead. 'State' is a concession to metrical and grammatical exigencies. 'Gone up on'; lit., practised myself in. Note how verses 216-223 carry out the fourfold 'mark' of verse 215. The metre in the Pali throughout is not the s'loka, and is too irregular to be easily classifiable. {{ c: rest of note cut.}} tbc, connie #74443 From: "nidive" Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 8:11 am Subject: Re: Mindfulness of Walking and General Deportment of the Body nidive Hi Scott, > Scott: Please make your point in the form of a declarative > statement. "Meditation" is just a label. The point is to be focused on the "present moment" of bodily action at all times, moment after moments. If you can do this during ordinary walking, you are already doing "meditation". You don't need a special walking meditation session. I read something about meditators and cockroaches being mentioned in the same sentence or paragraph. Personally, I think its just imaginations (and inner aversion) gone wild. Swee Boon #74444 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 8:16 am Subject: Re: Seeking discussion on meditation methods/techniques nichiconn Hi Phil, Howard, Howard: I think that Dhamma List is a likely venue for what you have in mind. connie: you might consider taking a look at: groups.yahoo.com/group/Jhanas/ lol... I won't be joining that one, but am a lurking DL member... peace. #74445 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 8:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Seeking discussion on meditation methods/techniques upasaka_howard Hi, Connie (and Phil) - In a message dated 7/17/07 11:18:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, conniebpj@... writes: > Hi Phil, Howard, > > Howard: I think that Dhamma List is a likely venue for what you have in > mind. > > connie: you might consider taking a look at: > groups.yahoo.com/group/Jhanas/ > lol... I won't be joining that one, but am a lurking DL member... > peace. > ======================== LOLOL! I needn't even peruse the site. I'm familiar with the list owner. ('nuff said!) With metta, Howard #74446 From: "colette" Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 2:04 pm Subject: Re: Seeking discussion on meditation methods/techniques ksheri3 Hi connie, so, that's you in the shadows! I've been a member of that list for about a month now, haven't been there much, too much to do here and elsewheres, what's your take on it? toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "L G SAGE" wrote: > > Hi Phil, Howard, > > Howard: I think that Dhamma List is a likely venue for what you have in mind. > > connie: you might consider taking a look at: groups.yahoo.com/group/Jhanas/ > lol... I won't be joining that one, but am a lurking DL member... > peace. > #74447 From: "colette" Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 2:07 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Seeking discussion on meditation methods/techniques ksheri3 Hi Howard, > LOLOL! I needn't even peruse the site. I'm familiar with the list > owner. ('nuff said!) colette: It's been about 2.5 years for me since I've bothered with that site. Gotcha down, does he? It gets boring listening one person give one line of thought and that's it. toodles, colette #74448 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 2:48 pm Subject: Re: Seeking discussion on meditation methods/techniques nichiconn Hi, colette, Howard, Phil, I'll stick with Phil's "moribund" for DL right now, but maybe the proposed discussion would breathe a bit of life back into it. As for the Jhana list, you're probably right, Howard - I'd forgotten a certain personality, it seems! - probably end up with more ujjhaana than jhaana. peace, connie #74449 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Seeking discussion on meditation methods/techniques upasaka_howard Hi, Colette - In a message dated 7/17/07 5:16:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ksheri3@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > > LOLOL! I needn't even peruse the site. I'm familiar with the > list > >owner. ('nuff said!) > > colette: It's been about 2.5 years for me since I've bothered with > that site. Gotcha down, does he? It gets boring listening one person > give one line of thought and that's it. > > toodles, > colette > =================== ;-) Especially a nonplus for me when the person is a self-styled and self-promoting stream-entrant. Of course, I could be wrong, and unfair, and presumptuous. I don't think so, but it is possible. (I do recall someone saying that he did learn some things of value from that list person.) With metta, Howard #74450 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Seeking discussion on meditation methods/techniques upasaka_howard Hi, Connie - In a message dated 7/17/07 5:51:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, conniebpj@... writes: > Hi, colette, Howard, Phil, > I'll stick with Phil's "moribund" for DL right now, but maybe the proposed > discussion would breathe a bit of life back into it. > As for the Jhana list, you're probably right, Howard - I'd forgotten a > certain personality, it seems! - probably end up with more ujjhaana than jhaana. > peace, > connie > ========================= Yes, 'ujjhaana' - I looked it up: irritation/discontent. LOL! With metta, Howard #74451 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 3:57 pm Subject: Re: oddest of Querries nichiconn dear colette, colette: I got a lot of little wikipedia things at home that relate to you and your jest at me, at one time, concerning things I said that reminded you of the Sarvastivadan? I still remember that I owe you something on that, an explanation or something like that. Gotta clue what post it was? connie: Thanks! from #63789 - Lost & Found Dept. You wrote: <> looking forward to it, connie #74452 From: "Phil" Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 4:20 pm Subject: Re: Seeking discussion on meditation methods/ where is the mudita? philofillet Hi Connie Thanks for the pointer. Actually, it was a post of yours that comes to mind sometimes on this topic. You said something like "'Meditators' sure like to talk about it," something like that, which makes me think that a) yes, it's true, meditators like to talk about it, *and* need to talk about it *and* should talk about it, so they don't just go plunging off on their own and b) talking about it at DSG, where many or most members are not "formal meditators" seems inappropriate when there are other places to talk about it. Yes, talking about it at DSG would give non-"formal meditators" a better idea of where "formal meditators" wrong view lies, that' true. I suppose "formal meditators" discussing "formal meditation"techniques would provide a service in that sense, a kind of Dana of Ditthi, a gift of wrong view to be observed. But the discussion would not be allowed to proceed because of being derailed, unless it was a "closed thread" which I think everyone (except perhaps Sarah who suggested it) agrees would be not good. I sure hope that when I do start a meditation discussion at another list (probably Dhamma-List) I sincerely hope students of AS will be thoughtful enough not to derail the discussions. That would be awful! Another point I was thinking about - mudita is lacking at DSG with respect to meditation. To pat my own back, I'll point out that when Howard posted several years ago about his "interesting meditation", I posted mudita for his post, because I realized that more important than critizing it (which I was inclined to do at that time) was celebrating it with mudita (which is non-judgemental.) I think that non-judgemental mudita with respect to other people's approaches to Dhamma is a somewhat atrophied dhamma for students of AS. I say that also based on having listened to the Bangkok talks a lot as well. Mudita is non-judgmental. It should override one's analysis of whether "formal meditation" is wrong view or not, at least momentarily, and allow one to celebrate another person't enthusiasm for Dhamma practice, it should celebrate others' happiness, whether misguided or not - I think. I don't know. Can there be mudita for a mudita-ee whose happiness is rooted in what is seen to be wrong view by the mudita-er? Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "L G SAGE" wrote: > > Hi Phil, Howard, > > Howard: I think that Dhamma List is a likely venue for what you have in mind. > > connie: you might consider taking a look at: groups.yahoo.com/group/Jhanas/ > lol... I won't be joining that one, but am a lurking DL member... > peace. > #74453 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 4:33 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Walking and General Deportment of the Body kenhowardau Hi Chuck, ------- <. . .> C: > It appears to me in paragraph 15 the Buddha speaks of meditation where he states "clearly comprehending." Among other items, the items "his walking, standing, sitting, lying down" implies meditation. --------------------- Yes, the Buddha must be talking about meditation (in the sense of bhavana - mental development). But he also taught anatta. Therefore, any meditation that *really* takes place is - according to this teaching - the function of conditioned dhammas: not of a sentient being. We have to learn to see the world in terms of conditioned dhammas, don't we? ------------------------- C: > I was taught several techniques in each of the meditation positions: sitting, walking, standing and lying down (reclining). In addition, another form of meditation is trying to be mindful of every action. That is, (1) not doing actions automatically and (2) not trying to do two or more things at the same time. For example, I try to watch the television and talk to my wife at the same time. -------------------------- Conventional situations are ultimately illusory and therefore not what the Buddha taught. However, they can be useful metaphors. By knowing what is meant by concentrating on the television (for example) we can appreciate the function of samadhi-cetasika (a universal nama that concentrates on the present object of consciousness). Apart from this metaphorical understanding, however, we must also realise that samadhi (like all cetasikas) operates entirely by conditions. It is not something that depends on any kind of conventional practice. Do you agree? Ken H #74454 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 5:08 pm Subject: Re: Mindfulness of Walking and General Deportment of the Body scottduncan2 Dear Swee Boon, Thanks for the reformulation: SB: "'Meditation' is just a label. "The point is to be focused on the "present moment" of bodily action at all times, moment after moments. If you can do this during ordinary walking, you are already doing "meditation". You don't need a special walking meditation session." Scott: Yeah, meditation is just a label. In the texts it is the word chosen to be a translation for 'bhaavanaa'. Nowadays, the word 'meditation' is quite abused. In my early days of Buddhism, like a year and a half ago, I was allowing an individual to teach me the rudiments of sitting meditation. I realised he didn't know what he was talking about when he said, rather in an off-hand sort of way as an aside, that it would likely be necessary to be able to be 'mindful' all or most of the time during the day before having success in jhaana attainments. He actually helped me quite a bit. I broke from him (not over this) later but it was this that stuck with me. I realised that if he was getting this so very wrong, there was little hope in putting anything in anything else he might say. You are saying the same thing. I say that if you really understood what 'focused on the present moment' meant, you wouldn't be suggesting that one ought to do this 'at all times, moment after moments'. This is impossible to control. There is no one who stays focused, as you are aware, in the ultimate sense, and its not like things operate under one set of parameters for awhile until a deeper or more precise set of parameters kick in. SB: "I read something about meditators and cockroaches being mentioned in the same sentence or paragraph. Personally, I think its just imaginations (and inner aversion) gone wild." Scott: Here, let me help you (before you go off all half-cockroached). Read the original post and then tell me something: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/66626 Sincerely, Scott. #74455 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 5:33 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Yogacara only lbidd2 Hi Colette, Thanks for your plausible response, but let me expatiate a bit since we don't seem to be on the same page. No self means no mistakes because a mistake is mine or yours. For sure there is plenty of greed, hatred, and bewilderment, but there is no one here or there to own it. And there are no objects of consciousness because everything in experience is consciousness. The tree I see outside my window (so to speak) is a manifestation of consciousness according to the cittamatra view. There is no separation between object and consciousness. Consciousness is it. Larry #74456 From: han tun Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 6:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Response to E-card from Bangkok 3 (1) hantun1 Dear Sarah, Thank you very much for your kind explanations. I really appreciate the trouble you have taken to write a long post for my benefit and for my better understanding. - The main difficulty with me is my failure to appreciate the inclusion of inanimate objects, such as a box of biscuits, a cup, a pillow, a house, a computer, etc., into the field of attavaadupaadaana. - The reason is that a being has five aggregates while the inanimate objects have only one aggregate - ruupakkhandha. However, you said that we are here talking about what is experienced through the six doorways which leads to the idea of atta-view. This is a good point. By this appraoch, it does not really matter whether the object for attavaadupaadaana has one aggregate or five aggregates. It is what we experience through our six doorways that matters. - The text references that you have quoted are helpful in understanding attavaadupaadaana, but they do not use the examples of inanimate objects in their explanation, nor they mention specifically that attavaadupaadaana is broader than sakkaaya-ditthi. - What I talked to you just before the meetong on 4 July was to get your 'personal' opinion on whether or not the references to inanimate objects are the case of vipallaasas rather than attavaadupaadana. I was just seeking your personal opinion. I did not have this topic (attavaadupaadaana and sakkaaya-ditthi) on my mind as a discussion point at the meeting. Anyway, I thank you very much for your kind explanations, and I think we can now move on to other topics. Respectfully, Han P.S. I still cannot use my computer at home. --- sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Han & all, > > I think this is an important and subtle topic. It > wasn't on my list to > raise, but you reminded me of it before the > discussion with A.Sujin, so I > concluded it was on your mind. > #74457 From: "Sukinder" Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 7:31 pm Subject: Re: No way not to seek emotional comfort in Dhamma sukinderpal Hi Phil, ============= >If so then one question > is, how do you explain the fact that most of the Buddha's disciples > experienced insight and even enlightenment while lietning to the > Teachings or while going about their business of daily living? Phil: I am told so often that people in the Buddha's day had better understanding. Surely you've used this argument yourself in disputing the value of people these days studying suttas and feeling confident in their understanding. S: I think you misunderstood my point. Howard was suggesting the need for a prior or `warm up' practice in order that the mind becomes calm and concentrated, and this was then meant to condition satipatthana. My bringing up the example of the Buddha's disciples was in order to show that such a practice was not part of their path to insight / enlightenment. But as with all dhammas, panna arises by NDS Condition. =============== Phil: These anecdotes about people hearing the Buddha's teaching and becoming enlightened - I suspect they are irrelevant to people in this day and age. S: The relevance is as I said above, to show that panna can arise at anytime without any preliminary formal meditation. =============== Phil: And I base that statement on the basic AS teaching that people had better conditions for understanding the Dhamma when hearing it directly from the Buddha, or in the Buddha's age. S: I don't know how much difference it makes to hear the Buddha talking in person if you were only one of the many people in the audience. Many of us have read those same words many times over, much more I would say, than many of the Buddha's contemporaries. The thing about being born at the time of the Buddha is more about having the accumulations of the level more or less equal to the other disciples. =============== Phil: Paying too much attention to those anecdotes is dangerous, I think. A form of craving wisdom that is way beyond one. S: Yes, if the craving is predominant, no, if there is merely an interest to `understand'. Remember, `just to understand' is just to understand and does not have to be translated as meaning `need to understand at some particular level', be it satipatthana, vipassana or enlightenment. =============== Phil: Best to get to work on the gross defilements and drop any expectations about sudden enlightenment in the midst of daily life activities. S: Expectation of any level of understanding, even satipatthana is obviously unhelpful, let alone enlightenment. What is not so obvious but equally impractical is the idea that defilements no matter how gross can be lessened by any practice other than vipassana. Yes, we do make the distinction between gross and subtle akusala, but perhaps forget about the roots. What seem like gross and workable, would for you and me, involve some kind of `suppression' or the other. Best attitude towards them would imo be, as with any other dhamma, to understand at whatever level we are able to. So what you should perhaps be questioning Phil, is this very idea about `working on gross defilements'. Besides, could this be in fact a change of objective from the previous "hunger for wisdom"…..? =============== Phil: I imagine you'll deny that you there are such expectations, but I think they are implicit in AS's approach to Dhamma, despite all the talk of aeons, and patience. S: Expectations may arise from time to time, but when they are known, is seen as undesirable, certainly never taken to be part of the Path. On the other hand, you acknowledge `desire' to be without gross defilements and this too, as being a necessary part of the Path…?! Regarding `expectations' being implicit in A. Sujin's approach, could that be only your own projection? Ideas about "doing" is what is charged with expectation of results. Why would a teachings which stresses knowing *all* dhammas without choice or expectation ignore any chance arising of `expectation'? Why would a teaching which stresses detachment at every step of the way, be one that aims for a result? You may say that the more subtle forms of these pass unnoticed. Perhaps so, but this would be the same with *all* dhammas. As long as defilements have not been eradicated, sure all forms of akusala will arise. ============== Phil: I think it's impossible for people in this day and age *not* to have expectations about what Dhamma will bring them. S: Expectations may arise, but you should not then conclude that it is there at every turn. Otherwise how would wisdom ever arise and be developed?! One point, I think expectations are the hallmark of wrong view. Right view on the other hand, being the understanding of dhammas *as they are*, conditions detachment, hence no expectations. ============== Phil: My expectations are about weakening the power of defilements, and perhaps this will lead to a more favourable rebirth. S: Ironically, I believe that your chances of a favorable rebirth would increase if instead of aiming for it, you aim for understanding. It seems the former while being focused on the other forms of akusala, is influenced by the desire accompanying wrong view. The latter on the other hand, sees danger not only in the two roots of lobha and dosa, but also moha / avijja. This is the difference!! ============== Phil: What are your expectations? I think we all have expectations if we are honest, because we all have mortal fear - we're not beyond that. But I could be wrong. S: As I said above, I do not see any good in expectations. Therefore even if it arises from time to time taking even "little good" as justification, I don't encourage it. ============== Phil: Sukin, I've been bad about responding to you but I promise I'll respond to anything you write to this. If possible, keep it fairly short. (e.g about the length that I've written here.) That would be appreciated. S: No problem. But I can't help writing long responses. Perhaps you bring up only *one* point and I'll respond to that one. ;-) ============== Phil: I think we should be honest that we all have expectations of what Dhamma will bring us, because we all have mortal fear and are seeking some kind of comfort from Dhamma. If we deny it, don't we risk turning the deepest teachings into a disguised form of feel-goodism? S: Fear can be known, and feel-goodism can be known, and when they are with right view, this understanding accumulates. Why should the fact that these akusala dhammas not having been eradicated and can arise at anytime be taken as an excuse to focus on something other than the development of understanding? Perhaps you fail to recognize yet other forms of akusala influencing any decision to take on a different path? ============== Phil: I'd rather be open and straight- forward about my need for feel- goodism. S: There are degrees of sincerity; the most useful one is that which accompanies Right Understanding. ============== Phil: I think we all need feel- goodism, release from the suffering caused by mortal fear, the kind that hits in the middle of the night. Meditation as taught and practiced these days provides various forms of solace and freedom from fear, and this helps provide conditions for some very small possibility of deeper understanding coming about. S: Without Right Understanding, this would only be wishful thinking. And it does not matter which technique is thought to be right. *All* formal practice is the Wrong Path, since the very idea is a denial of conditionality. ============= Phil: For awhile I was finding my comfort in studying Abdhidhamma, latching on to intellectual understanding of the deepest teaching and finding emotional comfort in having access to such deep teachings. I really don't mean to say that that is true for everyone who studies Abhdihamma intensively, but isn't it a possibility? S: What "deepest" Teaching? Perhaps this perception of `shallow vs. deep' teachings is what is misleading you to some extent? All Dhamma is "equally deep"; I would say "VERY deep". The difference however is in the level of "appreciation" and not in "applicability". It is the pariyatti - > patipatti -> pativedha progression which I so often mention and which you now seem to want to disprove. But won't you at least admit that this very formulation would deny any `comfort in latching on to intellectual understanding'? Why would this satisfy when after all there is still patipatti and pativedha to go through? But of course, when I and others refer to `pariyatti' we in fact are talking about a *level of Right Understanding*, and this by definition, can't be accompanied by attachment. Phil, this is longer than you asked for, however I hope that there has been something a little useful in all this. :-) Metta, Sukinder #74458 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 7:36 pm Subject: Re: Seeking discussion on meditation methods/ where is the mudita? nichiconn Hi Phil, I'd guess when I said something about meditators liking to talk I was being a jerk and meant something along the lines of how I read a lot of people saying metta, metta, metta-tation yet sounding all snarly and horridly put upon by what others might think or say. I tend to think along the lines of "sorry you felt the way you did about how you took what was done/said and that now you seem to want someone else to make it all better". If it was that, a nicer way might have been: surely you've heard the one about the metta practitioner who was always irritated whenever someone interrupted him. I can't agree with you that muditaa (or any of the 'loves') "should celebrate others' happiness, whether misguided or not" but would say, rather, that muditaa should express more concern with another's welfare than that. I fail to see how muditaa would make people happy when they believe someone else is headed for trouble... unless maybe it was along the lines of "ah, here perhaps I (we) can help (each other)". I hesitate about the we/other bit because it sounds like 'radiate metta to yourself', but I think you know what I mean & there's nothing wrong with Ye Olde Golden Rule as far as I know. No problem on my part with "closed threads". It seems to me there are a lot of them going on all the time anyway even when they aren't explicitly declared to be so. {btw, mr! - have you got the dojo entrance exams & filters ready yet?} One of the problems I've seen (yes, 'in real life' so I don't know about on-line) with people sharing their "meditation experiences" is a tendency to turn the thing into what I think of as a circle jerk. Don't go there! It's kinda the same way a 12-step meeting can derail, turning into a big pity party or, in the other direction, into one reliving/glorifying 'the bad old me days'. Either way, it's still basically just getting high on old memories/stories yet still thinking they've risen above those times/selves/what-have-you. Well, that's a bit of a tangent when what I set out to say was that even if it's not a closed thread, no one is obliged to answer a post they don't care for & not everyone believes their silence is a means of expressing approval; I certainly don't. If you're not comfortable ignoring a post though, you might just say to someone that you're not interested in pursuing their line of thought at this time. Not too much derailment there I wouldn't think. peace, connie #74459 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 7:50 pm Subject: Re: Seeking discussion on meditation methods/ where is the mudita? rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > > I sure hope that when I do start a meditation discussion at > another list (probably Dhamma-List) I sincerely hope students of AS > will be thoughtful enough not to derail the discussions. That would > be awful! > > Another point I was thinking about - mudita is lacking at DSG with > respect to meditation. To pat my own back, I'll point out that when > Howard posted several years ago about his "interesting meditation", > I posted mudita for his post, because I realized that more important > than critizing it (which I was inclined to do at that time) was > celebrating it with mudita (which is non-judgemental.) I think that > non-judgemental mudita with respect to other people's approaches to > Dhamma is a somewhat atrophied dhamma for students of AS. . > > Mudita is non-judgmental. it should celebrate others' happiness, whether > misguided or not - +++++++++ Dear Phil Like these psots today http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/74445 or http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/74449 If there is wrongview it is time for compassion - helping if possible- not mudita. Also you have several posts suggesting that meditation even if wrong is somehow good. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > Meditation as taught and > practiced these days provides various forms of solace and freedom from > fear, and this helps provide conditions for some very small possibility > of deeper understanding coming about. For awhile I was finding my > comfort in studying Abdhidhamma, latching on to intellectual > understanding of the deepest teaching and finding emotional comfort in > having access to such deep teachings. Along the same lines in another post you wrote; === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > You're a mental health professional and I really believe popular > forms of meditation can be so helpful to people who are suffering > terribly. Actually, I just started crying a bit thinking about that. > (Not crying about you, but about all those suffering people.) Are you > sure you're not depriving people who might listen to you of the > greatest possible self help program? Sure it's not deep and not truly > liberating, but the mental health benefits are documented, aren't they? > > _______ I see nothing wrong with formal meditation, no more than I would with taking a long hike, a warm bath or training for a marathon, but distortions happen because of the religiosity that people feel in formal meditation. While the main danger is mistaking strange experiences for vipassana insight there are other potential problems. I think you only do it a few hours a day but in intense retreats it is not always benign. I stayed at Nilambe with Godwin Samaratne, a meditation teacher in Sri lanka, for 3 weeks. http://nilambe.org/godwin.html He told me that one of his regular duties was visiting mental hospitals where he tried to help inmates who were there because meditation had gone wrong, some were so terrified by their experiences that even seeing his white clothers (he was an anagarika) used to make them shake because it reminded them of buddhism. And I read an article about 15 years ago, in either the Nation or Bangkok post, where a high up Pyschiatric doctor wanted to ban mindfulness meditation because he said there were too many admissions into hospital because of it. A taxi driver in Thailand dropped me off at a vipassana center and showed me scars from where he put a gun in his mouth after leaving a retreat at another center. I wrote out another case of a longtime friend but I erased it, as it is just too sad to put here. Ask me offlist if you want to know. I can quote(If you like) some recent posts on esangha etc from people with extreme reactions after retreat, and some with really bizarre behaviour. According to the longterm meditators these people have prior dispositions to mental illness and they are told not to do retreats: but I can't imagine turning someone away from Dhamma, after all what is mental illness but a degree of lobha, dosa and avijja. I guess these are rare cases(although I could pages of examples) but it shows meditation is not a panacea, there has to be discernment into what is genuine kusala and akusala. It is the same with Abhidhamma, the Commentaries say the one who studies Abhidhamma wrongly will go insane, (albeit I haven't heard of any cases similar to the above among Abhidhamma students). And actually it isn't so difficult to find refuge in anatta and the present moment- that is if there is enough patience- and then studying Abhidhamma is grounded. Robert #74460 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 8:37 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Seeking discussion on meditation methods/ where is the mudita? sarahprocter... Hi Phil, --- Phil wrote: > But the > discussion would not be allowed to proceed because of being > derailed, unless it was a "closed thread" which I think everyone > (except perhaps Sarah who suggested it) agrees would be not good. ... S: Just for the record, I'm not an advocate of 'closed threads', 'closed' dhamma discussion in any form. I think the Dhamma is for sharing. This doesn't mean that one cannot (or should not) direct letters/ questions (in print or 'live') to particular people one wants to hear from. It's the same when everyone addresses questions to AS in Bkk or India. Actually, I thought you were an 'expert' at this! In the old Abhi-'Phil' good days,you used to clearly address many Abhi-qus to Nina. Now you clearly address many qus specifically to meditators. [Btw, Jon was reading out a message of yours last nite and I was tired. I thought it was all about 'Phil-good', but now see it's 'feel-good', lol!] Anyway, it's all 'cool'....I may be discussing some Abhidhamma detail with X and Y might chip in and suggest there's no practice and we should be meditating:-). I either respond if I think it may lead somewhere helpful or ignore it if I'm busy or not interested in diversions at the time. Sometimes, just sometimes, it may really be very helpful to me too, helping some useful reflection from another angle! ... > Another point I was thinking about - mudita is lacking at DSG with > respect to meditation. To pat my own back, I'll point out that when > Howard posted several years ago about his "interesting meditation", > I posted mudita for his post, because I realized that more important > than critizing it (which I was inclined to do at that time) was > celebrating it with mudita (which is non-judgemental.) .... S: I remember that, an interesting example. Let's take an extreme example. Let's say someone is having lots of fun at wild parties, intoxicated and heading for trouble. Would mudita be appropriate? I don't think so. Metta, karuna or upekkha, but not mudita, though I suppose we may be glad for them that they're having pleasant rather than unpleasant feeling as we are for people who tell us of happy holidays.....Yes, difficult to generalise when we just think of a situation rather than of changing cittas. Only panna can tell! Good point to raise. Generally, though, if someone thinks I'm following some serious wrong view, they won't be writing back to help with mudita. This is why it's stressed that metta is for any occasion at all when we're 'associating' with people. Metta, Sarah ======= #74461 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 9:11 pm Subject: Re: No way not to seek emotional comfort in Dhamma kenhowardau Hi Phil, ------ <. . .> Ph: > I imagine you'll deny that you there are such expectations, but I think they are implicit in AS's approach to Dhamma -------- Have you ever reflected on the fact that the whole world is just the presently arisen conditioned dhammas? I ask that in all seriousness even though you have heard it said by AS and at DSG countless times. Have you ever actually thought about it? Let's say there are presently about 7 or 8 dhammas (as in a moment of vipakka). They immediately fall away and are replaced by another group of dhammas, none of which contains anything that is carried over from the previous group. That is all there is! Why - knowing that - would anyone have expectations? Expectations of what? Expectations for whom? The whole idea of having expectations is ridiculous! Ken H #74462 From: "Sukinder" Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:18 pm Subject: Re: What other teacher teaches against selecting a meditation object? sukinderpal Hi Howard, > S: Fair enough. And believe me, if Phil starts his `meditation corner' > with you and others participating, I won't bother to look in. Life is too > short…:-) ============================= Howard: Sukin, did you actually read my negative reply to the idea of (even somewhat) closed "corners"? This doesn't sound like it. BTW, Sukin, I'm not replying to the rest of your post, because I'm really getting weary of debate as a substitute for discusion, and I intend to avoid it. I have NO interest in scoring points. I have no interest in arguing with anyone. I wish to be done with that. It is nothing but a vexation. Sukin: In case you misunderstood me. I wasn't against the idea of having a `closed corner'; especially since you all are having difficulty finding any other group to discuss in. I was referring to any thought that someone such as I, one who doesn't believe in `meditation', may have about looking in mainly to find fault or even pick up a fight. It is the reference to these attitudes that I consider a waste of precious time. Sometimes the thought arises, that in a discussion, once when all the basic points have been put across, instead of debating, perhaps one should just leave it to allow the other side time to ponder. If instead of this we rush to prove our own point, there is risk that the other will only get defensive and this is not helpful at all. Metta might be the way to go, but this like everything else arises only when it does, no control. Oh well, I guess conditions rule and perhaps the best attitude is to not struggle against this fact. Besides, this is the very kind of understanding I believe, which will ultimately conditions what is truly good. So perhaps, patience is also needed. Just some rambling….:-) And BTW, have you all considered e-sangha as a possible place to air your thoughts? Metta, Sukinder #74463 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:40 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Angry Monks sarahprocter... Hi Chuck, --- dhammasaro wrote: > Perhaps, when I return next month I will meet many of you. Please > provide details. .... S: I'm not in Bangkok unless visiting, so best to contact Sukin off-list when you know you'll be there. He'll help arrange for you to visit the Foundation to join the English discussion. Let us all know too, just in case anyone else is visiting at the time. .... > > Sarah: So now you're catching up here again, you can 'argue' as you > like with us. > > Chuck: Well, "argue" as in intense and precise debate and/or > discussion. Not, as usually used in the vernacular. grins> ... S: Talking about Texas, I believe Tep also lives in Texas. Also another friend of ours, Pinna, who spends half her time in Bangkok. .... > Chuck: Yes, I ordained April, 2006 at Wat Bovoranives Vihara about a > kilometer from the Democracy Monument. I was the only non-Thai among > the 50 ordained in our group. It was for 21 days. We spent seven > days at a meditation center near Bangkok. I requested to remain a > monk. .... S: Jon and I know Wat Bovranives well. For many years, A.Sujin used to give regular lectures in Thai there which Jon used to attend, whilst also supporting the many foreign monks who'd stay there at the time. We also used to have the English discussions there. That was back in the 70s! Another of our mostly-lurking members here, Betty, has a son who is ordained and living at Wat Bovoranives (half American, half Thai). .... > Sarah: I'm sure many would be interested to hear more about it all > if you can be bothered. > > Chuck: Thank you. No bother at all. Sarah, you and members please > help me with questions so I may interestingly describe my experiences. .... S: Do you speak, read and write Thai now? If so, you have access to Thai Tipitaka and Thai audio discussions. Did you mention before that your wife was also going to Thailand to ordain or am I confused? As you can see, 'the practise' and the understanding of the Dhamma is highly controversial here. How do you see the path? How do understand pariyatti and pa.tipatti? What did you find most useful about ordaining for this time? I hope others will ask you further questions!! Godo to see you back again in good cheer... Metta, Sarah ======= #74464 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:44 pm Subject: Short Bio/History of K. Sujin christine_fo... Hello all, I'm writing at this time because I want to add information about K. Sujin to a thread in the Women's Forum of E-sangha about Female Teachers. Is there a short bio/history of her life and teaching life anywhere? with (hopeful) metta, Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- #74465 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jul 18, 2007 1:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Response to E-card from Bangkok 3 (1) sarahprocter... Dear Han, --- han tun wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > Thank you very much for your kind explanations. I > really appreciate the trouble you have taken to write > a long post for my benefit and for my better > understanding. .... S: A pleasure. It's helpful for me to reflect further on these points and I'm glad you express your viewpoint so clearly. ... > - The main difficulty with me is my failure to > appreciate the inclusion of inanimate objects, such as > a box of biscuits, a cup, a pillow, a house, a > computer, etc., into the field of attavaadupaadaana. ... S: Yours is the common understanding, I think. .... > - The reason is that a being has five aggregates while > the inanimate objects have only one aggregate - > ruupakkhandha. However, you said that we are here > talking about what is experienced through the six > doorways which leads to the idea of atta-view. This is > a good point. By this appraoch, it does not really > matter whether the object for attavaadupaadaana has > one aggregate or five aggregates. It is what we > experience through our six doorways that matters .... S: And it doesn't matter whether the aggregates are considered to be inner or outer. it's the taking what is experienced to be atta that is the consideration. > - What I talked to you just before the meeting on 4 > July was to get your 'personal' opinion on whether or > not the references to inanimate objects are the case > of vipallaasas rather than attavaadupaadana. I was > just seeking your personal opinion. .... S: It's a good point to raise. We were a bit rushed before the meeting and I may have misjudged your intention for which I apologise. Attavaadupaadana falls under di.t.thi-vipallaasa, the taking of what is anatta for atta. Again, I would see this as including namas or rupas, internal or external. Do you have any more reflections on this detail? ... > Anyway, I thank you very much for your kind > explanations, and I think we can now move on to other > topics. ... S: Yes, I look forward to your other summaries and comments when you have convenient computer access. Metta, Sarah ======== #74466 From: "colette" Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 7:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Yogacara only ksheri3 Hi Larry, They only let me on while they eat so I can't get into it but I gotta say: THANK YOU! It was a very good explanation. tomorrow. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@... wrote: > > Hi Colette, > > Thanks for your plausible response, but let me expatiate a bit since we > don't seem to be on the same page. > > No self means no mistakes because a mistake is mine or yours. For sure > there is plenty of greed, hatred, and bewilderment, but there is no one > here or there to own it. > > And there are no objects of consciousness because everything in > experience is consciousness. The tree I see outside my window (so to > speak) is a manifestation of consciousness according to the cittamatra > view. There is no separation between object and consciousness. > Consciousness is it. > > Larry > #74467 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jul 18, 2007 2:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Short Bio/History of K. Sujin sarahprocter... Hi Chris & all, The following is not a bio, but I think it may be of interest to others here as well, especially the bhikkhus who recently asked me (in Bangkok) about A.Sujin's time with A.Neb, her teacher of Abhidhamma. This is taken from her book (prepared from talks and discussions in Cambodia a few years ago): "Taking Refuge in Buddhism", ch 6. It can be found on Zolag website. ***** >>>Interpreter: Where did you first study the Dhamma? Sujin: I started with the study of the Abhidhamma. I came across an announcement in the newspaper the ``Bangkok World'', explaining that the Buddhist Association had started classes for the study of Buddhism and thereupon I began to study with Achaariya Neb Mahaaniranan and with others who were members of an association of teachers of Dhamma. I mostly studied in the class of Achaariya Neb. At that time I was still working, but only half a day, and the rest of the day I spent reviewing what I had learnt from the Abhidhamma teaching on Sunday. Before 1957 there was not yet a translation of the Tipitaka from Påli into Thai, there were only a few textbooks on Buddhism in Thai. After 1957, when there were translations available, I started to study the Thai translations of the Tipitaka and other books such as the Visuddhimagga (``Path of Purification''). I visited Achaariya Neb almost every Thursday and when I had doubts about certain topics I asked her opinion. She explained such topics to me with great kindness. Whenever she wanted me to accompany her and help her to explain the Dhamma I went with her, no matter the occasion was a cremation ceremony in the province or something else. When I had studied the Abhidhamma for two or three years, Achaariya Neb asked me to give lectures on the Dhamma in the National Cultural Institute and also in the women's prison. Whenever Achaariya Neb wanted me to do something for the propagation of Buddhism I did it to my best ability. When Achaariya Neb founded in 1963 the Research Centre on Buddhism and the Society of Spiritual Aid I lectured there as well. Later on I gave lectures in the Mahaa-dhaatu Temple and then in the building of Mahaa-makut College Association of the Bovornivet Temple. Nowadays I do not give lectures any more, but I help with Dhamma discussions and I review my lectures people have heard on the radio programs. <....><<< ... S: I think the following paragraphs are relevant and helpful to present and past discussions too: .... >>>Interpreter: You have read the Tipitaka and studied it. How did you acquire understanding of the development of satipatthaana from your study? Sujin: There is no doubt that the Dhamma is our guide and therefore people should not be attached to teachers. It is very difficult to thoroughly and completely understand the Tipitaka, both as to the letter and the meaning, but we are able to acquire more understanding of it by listening to any person who can explain the truth of Dhamma. However, we should not accept what is not in conformity with realities. We should not cling to persons, we should not believe in persons more than in the Dhamma itself. We should really have confidence in the Dhamma the Buddha assigned as his successor, as our guide.<<<[end quotes] ***** Metta, Sarah ========= #74468 From: "Phil" Date: Wed Jul 18, 2007 2:58 am Subject: Epiphan-ish moment philofillet Hi all Can't get back to those threads today (thanks for you responses, back to you asap) but I'd just like to share an epihan-ish moment I had biking home from the station today. I'd been listening to Bhikkhu Bodhi talk on "step by step" "procedures" for "exercises" in the mindfulness of breathing section of MN 10 and as usual thought about how different it sounds from the way Acharn Sujin teaches it. (And he too refers often to the commentary, so it is not a matter of his ignoring the commentary.) But then today there was a sense of gratitude for being able to hear such a radically different approach from Acharn Sujin and her students. Why not learn from them as well! A fortunate opportunity that will only deepen my understanding of Dhamma. So basically the epiphan-ish moment was that it's not black and white. Bhikkhu Bodhi, the Sayadaws and Acharn Sujin all teach about satipatthana in different ways. Great! No need to have everything fit neatly on one page. Anyways, I have a feeling that if I have a place elsewhere for discussing meditation techniques I'll be able to relax and learn from people here in a way that allows for deepening my understanding of paramattha dhammas. That made me feel very grateful. Metta, Phil #74469 From: "Phil" Date: Wed Jul 18, 2007 3:07 am Subject: Re: Mindfulness of Walking and General Deportment of the Body philofillet Hi Scott Hope you don't mind if I think aloud on this a bit, because I was thinking about it during a long day at the Immigration office today. > I realised he didn't know what he was talking about when > he said, rather in an off-hand sort of way as an aside, that it would > likely be necessary to be able to be 'mindful' all or most of the time > during the day before having success in jhaana attainments. What he said makes sense to me, both from a common sense point of view (if we are caught up in sensory distractions during the day because of a lack of mindfulness, there will obviously be poorer conditions for concentration when one seeks to cultivate jhanas?) and from the suttanta - there is a sutta in AN which says that "non- remorse" is a necessary condition for concentration. A lack of mindfulness during the day would make remorse-causing behaviour in body, speech and mind more likely, surely? Just some thoughts backed by no desire whatsoever to push you further into Debate Land. Metta, Phil p.s I opened up a can of cockroaches for you - sorry! #74470 From: han tun Date: Wed Jul 18, 2007 4:00 am Subject: Response to E-card from Bangkok 3 (2) hantun1 Dear Sarah, Phil, and Nina, Sarah: - Sila as foundation with panna leading to adhi sila. Sila leading to concentration, again with understanding. - sila as kusala, akusala, avyakata. See sutta in MN, middle 50s, after Maha Sakula (?) on akusala sila. Know what sila is. In the development of understanding, must be kusala citta. Indriya samvara sila in different ways, depending on the context. ---------- Han: - This has reference to my agreement with Phil that virtue (siila) is the precondition for concentration, quoting AN XI.1 Kimatthiya Sutta. In the sutta, the starting point is siila and the final achievement is vimutti-~naana-dassana. - Ajahn Sujin said that one should know what siila is, and that in the development of understanding it must be kusala siila. She added that there are three kinds of siila, viz., kusala siila, akusala siila, and abyaakata siila. I asked her where I could find that classification. She said abyaakata silla is for Arahants, and that I could find the first two in a sutta in Majjhima Nikaya. The sutta was later identified as MN 78 Samanamandika Sutta. When I got back home, I studied the sutta and I found the following excerpt. ---------- Quote: ["What are wholesome habits (kusala siila)? They are wholesome bodily actions, wholesome verbal actions, and purification of livelihood. These are called wholesome habits. "And what do these wholesome habits originate from? Their origin is stated: they should be said to originate from mind. What mind? Though mind is multiple, varied, and of different aspects, there is mind unaffected by lust, by hate, or by delusion. Wholesome habits originate from this." ---------- "What are unwholesome habits (akusala siila)? They are unwholesome bodily actions, unwholesome verbal actions, and evil livelihood. These are called unwholesome habits. "And what do these unwholesome habits originate from? Their origin is stated: they should be said to originate from mind. What mind? Though mind is multiple, varied, and of different aspects, there is mind affected by lust, by hate, or by delusion. Unwholesome habits originate from this."] End Quote. ---------- - For me, I think that I can avoid akusala siila. However, that might not be as easy as I thought, because, according to Ajahn Sujin, whatever I do, if it is not accompanied by pa~n~naa and kusala citta, it will be akusala. And I do not think I will have pa~n~naa all the time for whatever I do. - I think it will be even more difficult to cultivate kusala siila. According to the sutta, kusala siila originates from the mind unaffected by lust, by hate, or by delusion. As my mind is not yet free from lust, hate and delusion, I think I will not be able to achieve kusala siila, the very first step in AN XI.1. - However, it does not discourage me. I believe that siila on one hand, and samaadhi and pa~n~naa on the other, are mutually supportive, like a tree and its roots. As the roots grow the tree will grow, and as the tree grows the roots will also grow. Therefore, I am observing the five precepts, to the best of my ability, although it may not be as perfect as the one originated from the mind unaffected by lust, hate and delusion. - And I believe that as the time goes by, my siila will also grow, and meanwhile, my support for Phil's ideas on siila never falters! Respectfully, Han P.S. My computer will remain un-usable for some more days. I will, meanwhile, think about the vipallaasa aspect. #74471 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Jul 18, 2007 4:25 am Subject: Re: Mindfulness of Walking and General Deportment of the Body scottduncan2 Dear Phil, Thanks for the reply, me: "...I realised he didn't know what he was talking about when he said, rather in an off-hand sort of way as an aside, that it would likely be necessary to be able to be 'mindful' all or most of the time during the day before having success in jhaana attainments." P: "What he said makes sense to me, both from a common sense point of view (if we are caught up in sensory distractions during the day because of a lack of mindfulness, there will obviously be poorer conditions for concentration when one seeks to cultivate jhanas?) and from the suttanta - there is a sutta in AN which says that "non- remorse" is a necessary condition for concentration. A lack of mindfulness during the day would make remorse-causing behaviour in body, speech and mind more likely, surely?" Scott: But what is 'mindfulness'? I don't think that it is what happens when one tells oneself to 'be mindful'. P: "p.s I opened up a can of cockroaches for you - sorry!" Scott: Well, technically I did - oh well... Sincerely, Scott. #74472 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Wed Jul 18, 2007 4:55 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (63) nichiconn dear friends, 10. Ekaadasakanipaato 1. Kisaagotamiitheriigaathaava.n.nanaa part 7 On verse: 213. "Kalyaa.namittataa muninaa, loka.m aadissa va.n.nitaa; kalyaa.namitte bhajamaano, api baalo pa.n.dito assa. 213. The state of having good friends has been praised by the Sage with reference to the world. If he resorted to good friends, even a fool would be wise. Cy txt: Tattha kalyaa.namittataati kalyaa.no bhaddo sundaro mitto etassaati kalyaa.namitto. Yo yassa siilaadigu.nasamaadapetaa, aghassa ghaataa, hitassa vidhaataa, eva.m sabbaakaarena upakaaro mitto hoti, so puggalo kalyaa.namitto, tassa bhaavo kalyaa.namittataa, kalyaa.namittavantataa. PRUITT: 213. There, the state of having good friends (kalyaa.na-mittatataa)* means: a good (kalyaa.no), excellent, lovely friend of his is a good friend (kalyaa.na-mitto). Whoever is an adviser about the qualities of virtuous conduct, etc, [such as avoiding] error and killing, [etc.], one who is a friendly provider, a friend who is helpful in every way, that individual is a good friend.** That state is the state of having noble friends (kalyaa.na-mittataa), the state of possessing good friends (kalyaa.na-mitta-vanta-taa). *On this term, see Steven Collins, "Kalyaa.namitta and Kalyaa.namittataa," JPTS XI (a987) 51-72. **Cf Ud-a 221 (UC II 573). txt: Muninaati satthaaraa. Loka.m aadissa va.n.nitaati kalyaa.namitte anugantabbanti sattaloka.m uddissa- "Sakalamevida.m, aananda, brahmacariya.m yadida.m kalyaa.namittataa kalyaa.nasahaayataa kalyaa.nasampava"nkataa" (sa.m. ni. 5.2). "Kalyaa.namittasseta.m, meghiya, bhikkhuno paa.tika"nkha.m kalyaa.nasahaayassa kalyaa.nasampava"nkassa ya.m siilavaa bhavissati paatimokkhasa.mvarasa.mvuto viharissatii"ti (udaa. 31) ca evamaadinaa pasa.msitaa. Pruitt: By the sage means: by the Teacher. Has been praised ... with reference to the world means: "good friends shouls be followed" with regard to the world of beings. This is praised in such [sayings] as those beginning: "This is the whole of the holy life, Aananda, namely the state of having a good friend, the state of having a good companion, the state of having a proclivity for the good";* and "It is to be expected of a bhikkhu, Meghiya, who has a good friend, a good companion, a proclivity for the good, that he will be virtuous, that he will live restrained by the restraint of the Paatimokkha."** *S I 87, S V 2 (KS I 113, KS V 2). **Ud 36 (trans. 79f.), A IV ca 356 (GS IV 236). txt: Kalyaa.namitte bhajamaanoti-aadi kalyaa.namittataaya aanisa.msadassana.m. Tattha api baalo pa.n.dito assaati kalyaa.namitte bhajamaano puggalo pubbe sutaadivirahena baalopi samaano assutasavanaadinaa pa.n.dito bhaveyya. Pruitt: If he resorted to good friends, etc, means: seeing the advantages of the state of having good friends. There, even a fool (api baalo) would be (assa) wise means: resorting to good friends even a fool (baalo pi), an individual who previously was devoid of learning, etc, would become (bhaveyya) wise even if he does not hear the traditional texts, etc. ===tbc, connie #74473 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jul 18, 2007 1:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Seeking discussion on meditation methods/ where is the mudita? upasaka_howard Hi, Robert - In a message dated 7/17/07 11:04:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rjkjp1@... writes: > I think > that > >non-judgemental mudita with respect to other people's approaches > to > >Dhamma is a somewhat atrophied dhamma for students of AS. . > > > > Mudita is non-judgmental. it should celebrate others' happiness, > whether > >misguided or not - > +++++++++ > Dear Phil > Like these psots today > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/74445 > or http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/74449 > If there is wrongview it is time for compassion - helping if > possible- not mudita. > ============================ I'm not sure whether you were writing this straightforwardly or sarcastically. I'm afriad itmay be the latter. I do not know whether you have come across the person whom I was writing about, but I believe that if you did, you would issue a far stronger warning to Buddhist friends than I did. It happens that I DID think more than twice about whether I should respond negatively about him to Connie and Colette, my inclination being not to do that in general, but I concluded that at a time some folks were looking for a "place" to discuss Buddihst meditation, I had better say something by way of warning. The teachings provided by that person, a man of inflated ego, IMO, are not Dhamma, but they are presented as such and along with the claim that the "teacher" is a stream entrant. I believe I would have been remiss had I suggested even approval by my silence. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) #74474 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Jul 18, 2007 6:25 am Subject: Re: Seeking discussion on meditation methods/ where is the mudita? buddhatrue Hi Robert, Phil, and all, Darn! So much good meditation discussion and I don't have the time to fully participate! :-) Oh well, that's kamma. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > I think you only do it a few hours a day but in intense retreats it > is not always benign. I stayed at Nilambe with Godwin Samaratne, a > meditation teacher in Sri lanka, for 3 weeks. > http://nilambe.org/godwin.html > He told me that one of his regular duties was visiting mental > hospitals where he tried to help inmates who were there because > meditation had gone wrong, some were so terrified by their > experiences that even seeing his white clothers (he was an > anagarika) used to make them shake because it reminded them of > buddhism. And I read an article about 15 years ago, in either the > Nation or Bangkok post, where a high up Pyschiatric doctor wanted to > ban mindfulness meditation because he said there were too many > admissions into hospital because of it. A taxi driver in Thailand > dropped me off at a vipassana center and showed me scars from where > he put a gun in his mouth after leaving a retreat at another center. Robert, I read this post and I wanted to make one small comment. The problem with the extended meditation retreats (like those taught by Goenka, etc.) is that they teach only one meditation technique and tell everyone to practice that one technique, regardless of their changing mental state, for hours and days at a time! That is ridiculous and not what the Buddha taught in regards to meditation. From the Buddha: "Monks, suppose a man wanted to make a small fire burn up, and he put wet grass on it, put wet cowdung on it, put wet sticks on it, sprinkled it with water, and scattered dust on it, would that man be able to make the small fire burn up?" — "No, venerable sir." — "So too, monks, when the mind is slack, that is not the time to develop the tranquillity enlightenment factor, the concentration enlightenment factor, and the equanimity enlightenment factor. Why is that? Because a slack mind cannot well be roused by those states. When the mind is slack, that is the time to develop the investigation- of-states enlightenment factor, the energy enlightenment factor, and the happiness enlightenment factor. Why is that? Because a slack mind can well be roused by those states. "Monks, suppose a man wanted to extinguish a great mass of fire, and he put dry grass on it,... and did not scatter dust on it, would that man be able to extinguish that great mass of fire?" — "No, venerable sir." — "So too, monks, when the mind is agitated, that is not the time to develop the investigation-of-states enlightenment factor, the energy enlightenment factor, or the happiness enlightenment factor. Why is that? Because an agitated mind cannot well be quieted by those states. When the mind is agitated, that is the time to develop the tranquillity enlightenment factor, the concentration enlightenment factor, and the equanimity enlightenment factor. Why is that? Because an agitated mind can well be quieted by those states." So, during a "vipassana" meditation retreat, even when the mind is agitated, the meditator is told to investigate this agitation with mindfulness. But as the Buddha taught, this will only result in more agitation! If carried to an extreme extent, for days at a time, it is no wonder that some people become insane, suicidal, or homicidal! It isn't the fault of the person, it is the fault of a misguided teaching. I agree with the psychiatric doctor who wants to ban mindfulness meditation retreats. If I had my way, all Goenka (and similiar) retreat centers around the world would be closed down. Meditation should only be taught by qualified monks and one-on-one, as in the Buddha's time. Metta, James #74475 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jul 18, 2007 2:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What other teacher teaches against selecting a meditation object? upasaka_howard Hi, Sukin - In a message dated 7/18/07 1:20:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sukinder@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > >S: Fair enough. And believe me, if Phil starts his `meditation corner' > >with you and others participating, I won't bother to look in. Life is too > >short…:-) > ============================= > Howard: > Sukin, did you actually read my negative reply to the idea of (even > somewhat) closed "corners"? This doesn't sound like it. BTW, Sukin, I'm > not replying to the rest of your post, because I'm really getting weary of > debate as a substitute for discusion, and I intend to avoid it. I have NO > interest in scoring points. I have no interest in arguing with anyone. I > wish to be done with that. It is nothing but a vexation. > > Sukin: In case you misunderstood me. I wasn't against the idea of > having a `closed corner'; especially since you all are having difficulty > finding any other group to discuss in. > --------------------------------------- Howard: Let me interject a couple remarks here. I *am* very much against "closed corners". I don't oppose addressing particular people - I do that all the time, as we all do, in my case very frequenty Nina and Jon and other wonderful people who are admirers of Khun Sujin. As for a group in which to discuss meditation, there is no difficulty in finding one. There are many possibiities. I, for one, am happy to discuss it right here on DSG where I do at least 99% of my posting. Phil, however, was looking for a rather strongly protected environment for such discussions, and in the absence of a "closed corner," other lists such as Dhamma List are likely to serve better than DSG. ------------------------------------------------- I was referring to any thought that > > someone such as I, one who doesn't believe in `meditation', may have > about looking in mainly to find fault or even pick up a fight. It is the > reference to these attitudes that I consider a waste of precious time. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Ah, good. I'm sorry I misread you. I agree with you. I see no problem in discussing what the Buddha actually taught and what he meant by that teaching, and that includes the matter of meditation when all parties are comfortable discussing it, but arguing and fighting for one's beliefs to "win" is not helpful and is poor Dhamma practice. I really believe that, and the Buddha taught that. One sutta that emphasizes this is SN 4.5, available at http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/snp/snp.4.05.than.html . There's an even more pointed sutta that displays the ugliness of "No, you're wrong and I'm right" kind of arguing, but I can't find the reference at the moment. (I'd like to be reminded of the reference, because I really like that sutta.) ------------------------------------------------ > > Sometimes the thought arises, that in a discussion, once when all the > basic points have been put across, instead of debating, perhaps one > should just leave it to allow the other side time to ponder. If instead of > this we rush to prove our own point, there is risk that the other will only > get defensive and this is not helpful at all. > --------------------------------------------- Howard: Well said - I agree with you. :-) --------------------------------------------- Metta might be the way to go, > > but this like everything else arises only when it does, no control. > --------------------------------------------- Howard: What we take for "someone in charge," an agent/actor who directs things, is just impersonal conditions. Conventional control (or, better, "influencing") isn't imagined, but just misconceived, IMO. ----------------------------------------------- Oh > > well, I guess conditions rule and perhaps the best attitude is to not > struggle against this fact. > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: So long as one doesn't take this to mean that "anything goes". We should not get drunk, we should not inflict harm on self and others. We should be watchful and careful. To do the right thing does in many cases require real struggle - even though there is no "one" engaged in the struggle. ---------------------------------------------- Besides, this is the very kind of understanding > > I believe, which will ultimately conditions what is truly good. So > perhaps, patience is also needed. Just some rambling….:-) --------------------------------------------- Howard: Very *good* rambling, as I see it. Useful musing. -------------------------------------------- > > And BTW, have you all considered e-sangha as a possible place to air > your thoughts? ----------------------------------------------- Howard: I'm not enchanted by e-sangha, especially not by its format. In any case, I think there is no Buddhist list anywhere to compare with DSG. (My second favorite is Dhamma List.) ----------------------------------------------- > > Metta, > > Sukinder > ====================== With metta, Howard P.S. A very pleasant conversation, Sukin! Thank you. :-) #74476 From: "colette" Date: Wed Jul 18, 2007 7:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Yogacara only, to cross Ts and dot Is ksheri3 good Morning Larry, Now I can get into your response. > since we > > don't seem to be on the same page. > > colette: So you mean to say that YOU own the page and that YOU are writing the script? I can deal with that but it seems that OWNERSHIP is a problem since you say: > > No self means no mistakes because a mistake is mine or yours. For > sure > > there is plenty of greed, hatred, and bewilderment, but there is no > one > > here or there to own it. colette: How can this be? You clearly make the case that I am having a delusion, WRONG VIEW, a hallucination, etc. as the preface to your main point of Annatta but you've mistaken the speed at which I'm reading the script that YOU wrote/write. If you can not and do not own it, YOUR CONCEPTION, THEN, are you so worried about potential actions when you say, in a condecending tone, "plausible..."? Is it you that is greedy for what, personal gratification in the form of OBEDIENCE TO A DOGMA, or personal gratification in the form of a higher, greater, return on your investments such as a lower "minimum payment due" on your credit cards, or what? -------------------------------- As Kongrul Rinpoche said: "The difference between the wise Buddhist and the sectarian Buddhist is like that between the vastness of space and the narrowness of a vase." Is it possible that your conception of "space" is as small as the "vase", in that you followed Bob Barker's advice by becoming some "other person's" pet and were neutered, "FIXED", as a means to obtain a value, negotiable currency, with which to feed your other delusions, or fixations, or DESIRES, or CRAVINGS, or...? Now that I've established the WRONG VIEW you seem to revel in dishing out to me using the guise of RIGHT VIEW I can question your definition of "Right" and suggest that "Right" is an arbitrary term fixated upon by religious fanatics solely focused on the own self- abuse (check into the definition of self-abuse, it may come as a surprise to see Jerry Falwell with his hands full, huh?) > > > > And there are no objects of consciousness because everything in > > experience is consciousness. colette: here I'll play your gambit by questioning this hallucination you put forward concerning "experience" since there does not exist an nor any objects? The tree I see outside my window (so to > > speak) is a manifestation of consciousness according to the > cittamatra > > view. colette: This works well though, since it gives us the opportunity to question Versace concerning his efficacy of geting up in the morning and strolling outside to retrieve the newspaper, donw there, in what is it, Miami, FLA? I say this since I think we can do away with Phil Collins before hand so that his words don't rear up and cause us trouble in our discussion hear: "seein' is believin', it's the only way, you'll ever know." My consciousness is distracted all of a sudden because of some things that happened last night and my thoughts of reading the Heart Sutra (Hevajratantra) when I am complete consumed right now with Tantra. Pardon me, my thoughts have turned to something "other" and a desire to focus on another forum and their attacks toward me. toodles, colette There is no separation between object and consciousness. > > Consciousness is it. #74477 From: "nidive" Date: Wed Jul 18, 2007 7:59 am Subject: Re: Mindfulness of Walking and General Deportment of the Body nidive Hi Scott, > I say that if you really understood what 'focused on the present > moment' meant, you wouldn't be suggesting that one ought to do > this 'at all times, moment after moments'. > This is impossible to control. There is no one who stays > focused ... I think an arahant is always mindful of his bodily, verbal and mental actions at all times. Do you agree? If not, why? > Scott: Here, let me help you (before you go off all > half-cockroached). Read the original post and then tell me > something: I think it is your personal mental reaction and proliferation based on an experience with an individual who taught you the 'rudiments of sitting meditation' in your early days of Buddhism Swee Boon #74478 From: "nidive" Date: Wed Jul 18, 2007 8:43 am Subject: Re: Seeking discussion on meditation methods/ where is the mudita? nidive Hi RobertK, > He told me that one of his regular duties was visiting mental > hospitals where he tried to help inmates who were there because > meditation had gone wrong, some were so terrified by their > experiences that even seeing his white clothers (he was an > anagarika) used to make them shake because it reminded them of > buddhism. And I read an article about 15 years ago, in either the > Nation or Bangkok post, where a high up Pyschiatric doctor wanted > to ban mindfulness meditation because he said there were too many > admissions into hospital because of it. I have an elder cousin who was admitted into hospital for mental illness after attending some Mahayana camp/retreat. Luckily, he recovered. > I wrote out another case of a longtime friend but I erased it, as > it is just too sad to put here. Ask me offlist if you want to know. I am interested to know. If you don't mind, can you post to my address at nidive@...? Swee Boon #74479 From: "Justin" Date: Wed Jul 18, 2007 7:45 am Subject: The Negative Impact of Christian Missionaries in Buddhist Countries just999in Hello everybody, I want to make a few comments regarding the proliferation of foreign Christian missionaries in Buddhist countries. In my opinion, Christian missionaries are undermining Buddhism in Buddhist countries. I want to make it clear right away that, I am NOT criticizing mainstream Christians or Christianity in general. Missionaries tend to be fundamentalist and extreme in their beliefs. It is this fundamentalist brand of Christianity that they are spreading, and with success, in Buddhist countries such as Thailand. My question to you, is, do you think Christian missionaries or anyone that puts a lot of effort into proselytizing and converting Buddhists is a threat to Buddhist dominated cultures? I know that some people believe that only Buddhists can damage Buddhism, but when people such as missionaries go on well-funded campaigns to convert Buddhists, I do see it as a threat. Many of the people who convert don't understand the Dhamma properly, which is why they can't refute missionaries who misrepresent or slander Buddhism. It is important to make the distinction between the Christianity that many of us were raised with and fundamentalism. Most missionaries believe (and teach)that all non- Christians will go to hell. They believe all other religions are untruth, and they travel around the world at great expense of time and money, (though it's usually funded by the church) to convert Buddhists and others to Christianity. I just want to briefly make a few points. 1) Missionaries often distort Buddhism when talking to potential converts. Example, they often say things like "There is no salvation in Buddhism", and "There is only salvation through Jesus." 2) Missionaries are usually aggressive. At the university I work in Bangkok, in the last two weeks alone, I spotted three different groups of American missionaries (with a few Koreans and Thai converts) roaming around the canteen and dormitories approaching students offering free English and Korean lessons. Of course at these `language lessons', the missionaries use the opportunity to talk about Christianity and the Bible and invite them to their planted fundamentalist church. 3) In the park where I exercise regularly, I encounter Mormon and Christian missionaries almost every time. They approach Thai people sitting down alone or with their families and start preaching to them. I can go on and on about my extensive personal encounters I've had with missionaries in Thailand and Cambodia, but I think I've made my point. I'll conclude with comments made by a Thai/American missionary who preaches all around Thailand. Below are a few quotes he made to me, through email, about Buddhism. These are just a few of many similar quotes. Notice how he refuses to refer to any other religion with capital letters. "…This is a fact: there is no salvation in buddhism, islam, hinduism, or any other religion in the world as salvation is found only Christ Jesus the Lord…" "…The Lord Jesus Christ the Son of God gave himself for us to pay the price for our sins so that we could be saved. But if you reject this gift, then you will have to pay for your sins in hell. God is just: sin must be punished…" The remarks below about Buddhism are slanderous and quite bitter. "…I practiced magick which is allowed in Theravada sect buddhism. Theravada buddhism practices witchcraft and black magick… the "Rama-Yana" is full of magick…" "…buddhism teaches that buddha was birthed by a white elephant going inside his mother…" "… my mother, she is completely healed and is no longer a buddhist." This is typical of the kind of thinking encountered by missionaries. based on the dozens former-Buddhists that I've met who have converted to Christianity, I think it poses a threat in developing countries like Thailand and Cambodia. What do you think? Best, Justin #74480 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Jul 18, 2007 3:49 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Yogacara only, to cross Ts and dot Is lbidd2 Hi Colette, Thanks for the interesting reply. L: "...since we don't seem to be on the same page." colette: "So you mean to say that YOU own the page and that YOU are writing the script?" L: No, I just meant you misunderstood what I was trying to say. But it's of no great consequence. We can revisit later. Larry #74481 From: "Phil" Date: Wed Jul 18, 2007 4:39 pm Subject: Re: Response to E-card from Bangkok 3 (2) philofillet Hi Han and all > - For me, I think that I can avoid akusala siila. You can do it, we (all of us can do it) far more often thanks to reflecting on the Buddha's teaching and practicing meditation to train the mind in more wholesome directions than we would otherwise. That's enough. I'm not interested in perfection - I'm interested in radically improved probabilities! :) > However, that might not be as easy as I thought, > because, according to Ajahn Sujin, whatever I do, if > it is not accompanied by pa~n~naa and kusala citta, it > will be akusala. And I do not think I will have > pa~n~naa all the time for whatever I do. I think Ajahn Sujin gives us an opportunity to reflect on deeper aspects of the Dhamma, but if we let the above teaching hinder our sense of dedication to avoiding akusala kamma patha because of concern that there is no panna, it would be a mistake. But we can learn from her. > > - I think it will be even more difficult to cultivate > kusala siila. According to the sutta, kusala siila > originates from the mind unaffected by lust, by hate, > or by delusion. As my mind is not yet free from lust, > hate and delusion, I think I will not be able to > achieve kusala siila, the very first step in AN XI.1. Yes, I agree. I think avoiding akusala is much easier to understand than cultivating kusala. The first and second right efforts are easier to understand than the third and fourth. (And getting rid of arisen akusala is easier to understand and do than preventing unarisen akusala from arising.) But I have faith that by avoiding akusala I'm contributing to conditions for doing kusala. Let's not forget that in the suttanta, many kusala kamma patha are defined in terms of abstaining from their akusala counterpart - right? (Maybe I have that wrong.) > > - However, it does not discourage me. I believe that > siila on one hand, and samaadhi and pa~n~naa on the > other, are mutually supportive, like a tree and its > roots. As the roots grow the tree will grow, and as > the tree grows the roots will also grow. And reflecting on deeper Dhamma such as taught by Ajahn Sujin will help water the roots. Therefore, I > am observing the five precepts, to the best of my > ability, although it may not be as perfect as the one > originated from the mind unaffected by lust, hate and > delusion. Thank you for giving me occasion to reflect on the degree to which I am observing the precepts. We needn't worry about panna involved when observing the precepts. We just observe the precepts as best we can - plain and simple. > - And I believe that as the time goes by, my siila > will also grow, and meanwhile, my support for Phil's > ideas on siila never falters! Thank you for your encouraging words. As you know, encouraging words from you have done a lot to change my practice for the better. (I believe.) Here's another sutta we can all appreciate easily: "His action marks the fool, his actions marks the wise person, O monks. Wisdom shines forth in behaviour. By three things the fool can be known: by bad conduct of body, speech and mind. By three things the wise person can be known : by good conduct of body, speech and mind." It's easier to know when one is a fool than when one is a wise person, and it's easier to avoid being a fool than it is to be a wise person! Metta, Phil #74482 From: "Phil" Date: Wed Jul 18, 2007 4:46 pm Subject: Re: Response to E-card from Bangkok 3 (2) philofillet Hi again Sorry, I forgot to write that it is AN III,2 > Here's another sutta we can all appreciate easily: > > "His action marks the fool, his actions marks the wise person, O > monks. Wisdom shines forth in behaviour. > > By three things the fool can be known: by bad conduct of body, > speech and mind. > > By three things the wise person can be known : by good conduct of > body, speech and mind." > > It's easier to know when one is a fool than when one is a wise > person, and it's easier to avoid being a fool than it is to be a > wise person! #74483 From: "Phil" Date: Wed Jul 18, 2007 5:20 pm Subject: Re: Response to E-card from Bangkok 3 (2) philofillet Hi again I wrote this: > We needn't worry about panna involved > when observing the precepts. We just observe the precepts as best we > can - plain and simple. This is overstated. We can always reflect on why it's important to observe the precepts, there's some kind of panna there. And when which we fail to observe the precepts - which we obviously will at times - panna can help us to move beyond guilt and remorse which don't help at all. But this panna that sees into the conditioned nature of dhammas rather than just thinking about it in a helpful way? That kind of panna is not involved for me - but of course it could be, at any moment! Metta, Phil #74484 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Jul 18, 2007 7:10 pm Subject: Re: Mindfulness of Walking and General Deportment of the Body scottduncan2 Dear Swee Boon, Thanks for the reply: SB: "I think an arahant is always mindful of his bodily, verbal and mental actions at all times. Do you agree? If not, why?" Scott: The potential error imbedded in the question is to be found in the way 'an arahant' is defined. Obviously, we are not discussing a person here. The arahant, like the path, will refer to a particular moment of consciousness, and the potential sequelae of this moment. The answer to the question will be, in my opinion, first found in a list of moments of consciousness and accompanying mental factors left to arise for 'the arahant' - in potentia. Secondly, it will come out of a discussion of whether consciousness is continuous or contiguous. This is, as I see it, a progression of the 'meditation debate', and will contain the same dichotomies of control versus no-control, moment versus persistent state, etc. Finally, I fully intend to quote relevant material as I see fit and as completely as I desire. Will you discuss under these condtions? SB: "I think it is your personal mental reaction and proliferation based on an experience with an individual who taught you the 'rudiments of sitting meditation' in your early days of Buddhism" Scott: I'm glad you were able to read the original post and offer this view. Perhaps now we can focus on the question at hand, recalling, if you please, that it is views we are discussing, and not the so-called person expressing them. Thanks for your consideration. Sincerely, Scott. #74485 From: "Phil" Date: Wed Jul 18, 2007 9:21 pm Subject: Re: Mindfulness of Walking and General Deportment of the Body philofillet Hi Scott You've got your hands full with various discussions, but if you don't mind I'll tack something on here. I think it might invigorate me before I head out to work. Selfish! > P: "What he said makes sense to me, both from a common sense point of > view (if we are caught up in sensory distractions during the day > because of a lack of mindfulness, there will obviously be poorer > conditions for concentration when one seeks to cultivate jhanas?) and > from the suttanta - there is a sutta in AN which says that "non- > remorse" is a necessary condition for concentration. A lack of > mindfulness during the day would make remorse-causing behaviour in > body, speech and mind more likely, surely?" > > Scott: But what is 'mindfulness'? I don't think that it is what > happens when one tells oneself to 'be mindful'. Ph: What is mindfulness (sati) indeed. I still don't understand that. So I guess I think of it in conventional terms, as a kind of defensive alertness. Maybe that is the understanding that is most suitable for me now. So, if I'm walking through a crowded train station and a man runs up and stamps on my foot, intentionally, and I'm mindful at the time, I might just think "that man stamped on my foot! How strange." There might be more resilence to the object, the proliferation will be less. Or if a woman runs up to me and places her pretty little hand on my thigh (happens every day) or whatever other less dramatic sense impressions. So we go through the world a little bit less responsive, a little bit less knee-jerkish. As for telling oneself to be mindful, sure, it won't work, not consistently. But I find momentum can build and what started off in an intentional way can become, through the conditioning impact of that intention, gradually, second nature, automatic. I think of me and my incidents of bicyle/pedestrian road rage aginst drivers. There used to be so many of them. After coming to Dhamma, the number has decreased. Now there are so very few. A few months ago, maybe 6 months ago, I came up with this thing where I intend to be non- harmful to all drivers, as though, if they were to hit me, *they* would be the ones who were harmed. So I walk and cycle so mindfully, mindful not to harm the drivers! Now it has become the nature of the way I cycle, I don't think about doing it anymore, it's become second nature, or is firmly on the way to becoming second nature. It started with an intention, conceived during my morning meditation/reflection, and now it has become second nature. So for this and other reasons (I have a lot of these little schemes) I believe that intended mindfulness can become just-the-way-one-is mindfulness. Now as for the deep sati of satipatthana that sees into the true nature of things, I don't know about that. Nina's explanations of sati are still over my head, through no fault of her own. I am finding more conventional forms of mindfulness that aren't really any different that the "be careful when you cross the street" kind of mindfulness we'd hear from our grannies. (I think Ken used that) very helpful. They provide a shelter from our worst tendencies, a shelter in which subtly good tendencies can grow - maybe. I don't know. I'll reduce this to one question, that you can certainly opt out of without any hurt on my part. Don't you think intentions to be mindful can, but virtue of repeated, conditioned behaviour, become second nature? Of course the intention itself is just a moment of dhamma that has conditioning power, isn't it? Or is it. Can "I'm going to be non- harmful to drivers" be a dhamma? I guess not. Anyways, off to work, with the bike ride re-conditioned by this post, so thanks. Metta, Phil #74486 From: "Phil" Date: Wed Jul 18, 2007 9:28 pm Subject: Re: Mindfulness of Walking and General Deportment of the Body philofillet Hi again typo >Don't you think intentions to be mindful > can, *by* virtue of repeated, conditioned behaviour Metta, phil p.s just a few more responses in that other thread before leaving on our trip, so probably won't carry on with this... #74487 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jul 18, 2007 9:35 pm Subject: Missionary Zeal or Live and Let LIve? - was:The Negative Impact of Christian Missionaries in Buddhist Countries sarahprocter... Hi Justin, --- Justin wrote: <...> > I want to make it clear right away that, > > I am NOT criticizing mainstream Christians or Christianity in general. > > Missionaries tend to be fundamentalist and extreme in their beliefs. .... S: When we are so disturbed by a group like this, isn't this in turn a 'Negative impact' and even more 'Missionary Zeal' as we try to persuade others to take action or feel the same way as we do? .... <...> > My question to you, is, do you think Christian missionaries or anyone > that puts a lot of > effort into proselytizing and converting Buddhists is a threat to > Buddhist dominated > cultures? .... S: You posted the same concerns before. Here are some comments that Jon responded with before on the same topic: 1)From Jon: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/48524 I have heard it said that the greatest threat to the Dhamma is the wrong view of those who profess to follow it. For example, if monks or respected lay followers teach wrong dhamma, this is what will lead to Buddhism's decline. I think there is a lot in this. There have probably always been outsiders who promote other teachings among the followers of Dhamma, but it has survived so far becuase of the faith and understanding of its followers. The same will apply in the future. The best thing we can do to help preserve the teachings is to study the teachings and try ourselves to understand the Buddha's message. ..... 2)from Jon: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/48721 It may well be that everything you say here is correct (or at least arguably so). But if your real concern is the preservation of the sasana, then why not give more weight to what the Buddha had to say about the matter? If the Buddha said that the best way of preserving the teachings is to study and practise them, then it seems we don't need to worry too much about perceived attacks by those of other faiths (which have probably been going on more or less continuously over the past 2500 years or so anyway). .... > I know that some people believe that only Buddhists can damage Buddhism, > but when > people such as missionaries go on well-funded campaigns to convert > Buddhists, I do see it > as a threat. Many of the people who convert don't understand the Dhamma > properly, > which is why they can't refute missionaries who misrepresent or slander > Buddhism. .... S: So, there are many unhelpful influences in the world. Should we get hung up about them all, or just do our best to study the teachings, share them with those who are interested and 'live and let live'? Do we understand the Dhamma properly? When we become so distressed and distubed about the behaviour of others (however we justify our 'righteous anger'), we are not following the Buddha's teachings at all. Instead we are pursuing a cause with a missionary zeal ourselves. .... <...> > I can go on and on about my extensive personal encounters I've had with > missionaries in > Thailand and Cambodia, but I think I've made my point. .... S: You do make your point in detail, Justin, but I think it's a very misguided point. Misguided, because instead of truly following and understanding the Buddha's Path, you are spending your time and energy in criticising others who also act out of ingorance. We are fortunate: we have confidence in the Buddha's teachings - why not consider and discuss more of them with us, whilst developing loving kindness and compassion for those who act in ignorance and see no value at all in the teachings, in spite of living in a Buddhist country? ... > This is typical of the kind of thinking encountered by missionaries. > based on the dozens > former-Buddhists that I've met who have converted to Christianity, I > think it poses a threat > in developing countries like Thailand and Cambodia. > > What do you think? ... S: All the 'threats' are within: the ignorance and wrong view we carry around with us all the time. The Buddha used the analogy of the farmer scattering seed in the fields. He didn't waste time trying to cultivate barren ground. Instead he put most effort into cultivating the most fertile fields. So, let's develop our own understanding and share what we learn with other 'fertile' friends, instead of being so disturbed by our thoughts and speculations. Metta, Sarah ========= #74488 From: "Robert" Date: Wed Jul 18, 2007 9:50 pm Subject: Re: The Negative Impact of Christian Missionaries in Buddhist Countries avalo1968 Hello Justin, I don't think you need to protect Thai people. They are capable of making their own judgements. Regards, Robert A. #74489 From: "Justin" Date: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:10 am Subject: Re: The Negative Impact of Christian Missionaries in Buddhist Countries just999in Hello Robert, Well, I'm not saying they need protection, but perhaps a warning about the agenda of the missionaries. For example, just today, there was a large group of young Korean and American missionaries on my campus. In the canteen, they set up microphones, played popular music, and had traditional Korean dancing. Why are they doing this? They are trying to lure people to their weekend camp. Of course, they didn't mention anything about Jesus or religion in their promotional stunt, because if they talked about religion, they know people won't come to their camp. Once students are lured to the camp, then they are all given Bibles and preached to about Christianity. I know this already, so I will use my position here to warn as many students as I can about the camp. I think Thai people, or anyone that is being deceived, DO need to be warned about activities like this. Don't you think it's good to let people know when they are being lied to? I think the Dhamma would support that. Best, Justin --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert" wrote: > > Hello Justin, > > I don't think you need to protect Thai people. They are capable of > making their own judgements. <....> #74490 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jul 19, 2007 1:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Walking and General Deportment of the Body sarahprocter... Dear Scott, Thanks for sharing your helpful research and reflections on various topics. --- Scott Duncan wrote: <..> > Scott: 'Understand' is closer to the pali than 'discern', in my opinion. > > In the unknown translation has 'he makes himself fully alert' for > [sampajaanakaarii hoti], whereas ~Naa.namoli/Bodhi have 'one who acts > in full awareness' for 'sampajaanakaarii hoti'. Neither attempt is > true to the meaning of 'sampajaanakaarii', which is: > > "...sampajaanakaarin acting with consideration or full attention..." > > And is related to: > > "Sampajaanaati [saÅ‹+pajÄ?nÄ?ti] to know..." > > which is, again, pa~n~na. The former, as well as the latter, > translator are either translating conventionally, or are > editorialising that is is a person who can do these things - the > former more than the latter. Sampajaanakaarii hoti implies that this > develops (hoti being related to bhaveti). > > A similar term, 'sampaja~n~na' (..."i. e. *sampajaanya] atten- tion, > consideration, discrimination, comprehension, circumspection...") > seems to relate, but is not in the original Paa.li. If someone can > clarify the Paa.li, that would be great. ..... Sarah: As I understand, sampaja~n~na is a synonym for pa~n~na, often used with sati as in sati sampaja~n~na in the Satipatthana Sutta. Sampaja~n~na is the noun, sampajaanaati is the verb, as in 'he understands' sampajaanakaari refers, I think, to the one who understands. (In other contexts we have 'dhammaanusaari' ('the one conforming to the Norm') and 'saddhaanusaari' ('the one conforming by faith')as in Puggalapa~n~natti, 35. As you say, whatever the context, 'it is dhammas with characteristics, not a person, that are under consideration.' Metta, Sarah ========= #74491 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Thu Jul 19, 2007 5:08 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Seeking discussion on meditation methods/ where is the mudita? rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Robert - > > In a message dated 7/17/07 11:04:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > rjkjp1@... writes: > > > I think > > that > > >non-judgemental mudita with respect to other people's approaches > > to > > >Dhamma is a somewhat atrophied dhamma for students of AS. . > > > > > > Mudita is non-judgmental. it should celebrate others' happiness, > > whether > > >misguided or not - > > +++++++++ > > Dear Phil > > Like these psots today > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/74445 > > or http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/74449 > > If there is wrongview it is time for compassion - helping if > > possible- not mudita. > > > ============================ > I'm not sure whether you were writing this straightforwardly or > sarcastically. I'm afriad itmay be the latter. > I do not know whether you have come across the person whom I was > writing about, but I believe that if you did, you would issue a far stronger > warning to Buddhist friends than I did. The teachings provided by that person, a > man of inflated ego, IMO, are not Dhamma, but they are presented as such and > along with the claim that the "teacher" is a stream entrant. I believe I would > have been remiss had I suggested even approval by my silence. > ______ Dear Howard I know Jhana J. well from his time on dsg and triplegem and I agree with your assessment. My point was that having mudita about anyone who meditates is not correct. Robert #74492 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Thu Jul 19, 2007 5:26 am Subject: Re: The Negative Impact of Christian Missionaries in Buddhist Countries rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Justin" wrote: > > Hello Robert, > > Well, I'm not saying they need protection, but perhaps a warning about > the agenda of the missionaries. > > ____ Dear Justin http://www.sundaytimes.co.za/News/Article.aspx?id=517869 PHNOM PENH - Cambodia has banned Christian groups from door-to-door proselytising and is seeking to limit other religious activities by non-Buddhist organisations, which it says disrupt society.."" Robert #74493 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jul 19, 2007 1:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Walking and General Deportment of the Body upasaka_howard Hi, Scott (and Swee Boon) - I insert myself (insinuate myself? LOL!) into your dialog only to address a point or two, and then I will butt out. In a message dated 7/18/07 10:11:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: > Dear Swee Boon, > > Thanks for the reply: > > SB: "I think an arahant is always mindful of his bodily, verbal and > mental actions at all times. > > Do you agree? If not, why?" > > Scott: The potential error imbedded in the question is to be found in > the way 'an arahant' is defined. Obviously, we are not discussing a > person here. The arahant, like the path, will refer to a particular > moment of consciousness, and the potential sequelae of this moment. --------------------------------------------- Howard: The phrase 'an arahant' does *not* refer, in fact, to a particular moment of consciousness at all. It refers to an aggregate (actually a fuzzy aggregate) of namas and rupas, a stream of interrelated namas and rupas. An arahant is not a paramattha dhamma. Arahants may teach, meditate, eat, drink, listen to thunder, and walk in the rain. Every one of the mindstates of an arahant is entirely free of all defilements. Some of his/her mindstates involve being conscious of eye-door sensations, while others are mind-door jhanic states, and still others have odors as object content. No one of those states is "the arahant", but each is a state free of craving, aversion, and ignorance both actively and in potential, and it is that fact that makes the aggregate referable to as "an arahant". An arahant (it is said) wrote the Abhidhammata Sangaha. That author was not a moment of consciousness. A single moment of consciousness doesn't create a text. The Buddha, often called "The Arahant," also was not a moment of consciousness. To say otherwise is to use language in a way that makes no sense, IMO. ----------------------------------------------- > > The answer to the question will be, in my opinion, first found in a > list of moments of consciousness and accompanying mental factors left > to arise for 'the arahant' - in potentia. Secondly, it will come out > of a discussion of whether consciousness is continuous or contiguous. > This is, as I see it, a progression of the 'meditation debate', and > will contain the same dichotomies of control versus no-control, moment > versus persistent state, etc. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: The Abhidhamma presents consciousness as having no gaps, but divides it into contiguous cittas distinguished on the basis of cetasikas and object. So, both continuity and contiguity apply as far as Abhidhamma is concerned, it seems. ======================= With metta, Howard #74494 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Jul 19, 2007 5:37 am Subject: Re: Mindfulness of Walking and General Deportment of the Body scottduncan2 Dear Phil, Thanks for the reply: me: "But what is 'mindfulness'? I don't think that it is what happens when one tells oneself to 'be mindful'." Ph: "...What is mindfulness (sati) indeed. I still don't understand that. So I guess I think of it in conventional terms, as a kind of defensive alertness. Maybe that is the understanding that is most suitable for me now. So, if I'm walking through a crowded train station and a man runs up and stamps on my foot, intentionally, and I'm mindful at the time, I might just think "that man stamped on my foot! How strange." There might be more resilence to the object, the proliferation will be less. Or if a woman runs up to me and places her pretty little hand on my thigh (happens every day) or whatever other less dramatic sense impressions. So we go through the world a little bit less responsive, a little bit less knee-jerkish." Scott: I think that it is important to make sure that what is understood about the Dhamma is based on accuracy and correctness, not on 'what is suitable now'. There is either right understanding or wrong understanding. I don't think that there is an intermediate stage of understanding that is neither quite right nor quite wrong. Taking sati as an example, if one is confused about what sati is, then one is liable to take for sati that which is something else. Mental factors arise in unison with any given moment of consciousness, not singly. Therefore they support each other. Each has its own characteristic and function. Sati is (Dhammasa"nga.ni, p. 14): "The mindfulness which on that occasion is recollecting, calling back to mind; the mindfulness which is remembering, bearing in mind, the opposite of superficiality and of obliviousness..." Scott: In the example, '...I'm mindful at the time, I might think, that man stomped on my foot, how strange,' it is unclear what gave rise to the thought. And the thought is all about concepts. What is it that sati 'recollects'? What is it that is 'born in mind? I think it is the characterisitic of given dhamma that is the object of sati, not a situation (as described). Sati would 'remember' that what arises is, for example, dosa (were that to arise) because of the particular charcteristic of dosa, and sati would then contribute to kusala yet to arise. I stand for correction on this, of course. If one looks at another dhamma, concentration, self-collectedness or cittas' ekaggataa, it is (Dhammasa"nga.ni, pp. 11-12): "The stability, solidity, absorbed steadfastness of thought, which on that occasion is the absence of distraction, balance, unperturbed mental procedure, quiet..." Scott: It might be possible to mistake concentration for mindfulness. Or then there is manasikaara or attention, which is (Atthasaalinii, p.175): "'Attention' is a mode of work, working in the mind. It makes mind, so to speak, different from the previous mind...Attention which regulates the object...is called attention because it makes [the object] in the mind. It has the characteristic of driving associated states towards the object, the function of joining associated states to the object, the manifestation of facing the object..." Scott: Concentration and attention arise with each moment of consciousness. Sati only arises with kusala citta, as far as I know. Isn't it important to know this? Why settle for confusion based on an initial misunderstanding of sati, just because you think that wrong understanding can be suitable at some time? Sati is not, in my opinion, 'defensive alertness'. This is something you thought about. It is your own definition, of which you should definitely be afraid. P: "As for telling oneself to be mindful, sure, it won't work, not consistently. But I find momentum can build and what started off in an intentional way can become, through the conditioning impact of that intention, gradually, second nature, automatic." Scott: I don't think anything that starts off wrongly can finish well. P: "...Don't you think intentions to be mindful can, but virtue of repeated, conditioned behaviour, become second nature? Of course the intention itself is just a moment of dhamma that has conditioning power, isn't it? Or is it. Can "I'm going to be non-harmful to drivers" be a dhamma? I guess not." Scott: No I don't. 'I'm going to be non-harmful to drivers' is a thought about concepts. The view here is that one can start off by controlling the arising of dhammas, which then, by virtue of having been deliberately started by a self, will take on a life of their own and take on, subsequently, the characteristic of anatta. This is not correct. The only thing that 'becomes second nature' here is self-view. Sez me, and who cares... Sincerely, Scott. #74495 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Thu Jul 19, 2007 5:49 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (63) nichiconn dear friends, 10. Ekaadasakanipaato 1. Kisaagotamiitheriigaathaava.n.nanaa part 8 On verse: 214. "Bhajitabbaa sappurisaa, pa~n~naa tathaa va.d.dhati bhajantaana.m; bhajamaano sappurise, sabbehipi dukkhehi pamucceyya. 214. Good men are to be resorted to. In this way, the wisdom of those who resort to them increases. Resorting to good men, one would be released from all pains. CY: Bhajitabbaa sappurisaati baalassaapi pa.n.ditabhaavahetuto buddhaadayo sappurisaa kaalena kaala.m upasa"nkamanaadinaa sevitabbaa. Pa~n~naa tathaa pava.d.dhati bhajantaananti kalyaa.namitte bhajantaana.m tathaa pa~n~naa va.d.dhati bruuhati paaripuuri.m gacchati. Yathaa tesu yo koci khattiyaadiko bhajamaano sappurise sabbehipi jaati-aadidukkhehi pamucceyyaati yojanaa. 214. Good men are to be resorted to means: because it is the cause of the state of being wise, even for a fool, good mena such as Buddhas should be resorted to by going to them from time to time. In this way the wisdome of those who resort to them increases means: in this way the wisdom of those who resort to them, to good friends, increases, grows, goes to completion. In this way, anyone among them, a Khattiya, etc, resorting to good men, one would be released from all the pains of birth, etc. On verse: 215. "Dukkha~nca vijaaneyya, dukkhassa ca samudaya.m nirodha.m; a.t.tha"ngika~nca magga.m, cattaaripi ariyasaccaani. 215. One should understand pain and the arising of pain and [its] cessation and the eightfold way - all the four noble paths. CY: Muccanavidhi.m pana kalyaa.namittavidhinaa dassetu.m "dukkha~nca vijaaneyyaa"ti-aadi vutta.m. Tattha cattaari ariyasaccaaniiti dukkha~nca dukkhasamudaya~nca nirodha~nca a.t.tha"ngika.m magga~ncaati imaani cattaari ariyasaccaani vijaaneyya pa.tivijjheyyaati yojanaa. 215. Then, to show the form of release through the form of good friends, one should understand pain, etc. was said. There, all the four noble truths means: one should understand, one should comprehend, the four noble truths: "pain and the origin of pain and cessation and the eightfold path." That is the connection. ===tbc, connie #74496 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jul 19, 2007 1:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Seeking discussion on meditation methods/ where is the mudita? upasaka_howard Hi, Robert - In a message dated 7/19/07 8:16:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rjkjp1@... writes: > Dear Howard > I know Jhana J. well from his time on dsg and triplegem and I agree > with your assessment. My point was that having mudita about anyone > who meditates is not correct. > Robert > ===================== Thank you for the clarification. I apologize for being off-base on what you meant. With regard to what actually *was* your point, I agree with you that happily empathizing with anything that makes a person "happy" isn't appropriate when it seems that that person is actually not serving themselves well. Not all that goes under the name of 'meditation' is useful cultivation of the mind, and compassion and correction would be the appropriate action, I think, under circumstances of mistaken practice, though, of course, along with kind praise at the intention to follow the Dhamma. The only disclaimer I would add is that we shouldn't be too quick to judge or too definite in our judging, because of our own limitations; we have to be careful to distinguish what we believe to be the case from what we know to be the case. With metta, Howard #74497 From: Ken O Date: Thu Jul 19, 2007 5:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] No way not to seek emotional comfort in Dhamma ashkenn2k Hi Phil and Sukin Understanding is gradual but that does not exclude the possiblity of being a stream entrant in this life as who knows when it would come except for Buddha. It is not what we expect in the future that matters, it is the understanding of the three characteristics of dhamma at the present moment that matters. And that is the gist of all practises be it you practise meditation or abhidhamma. So feel free to choose the path you like to do but remember you are your own refuge and only you would know what is best for yourself :-) but do please note our advises even though is cheap by the dozens, who knows one day, one of it may hit home run. Cheers Ken O #74498 From: Ken O Date: Thu Jul 19, 2007 6:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Walking and General Deportment of the Body ashkenn2k Hi Phil you are too overly concern about sati. I feel that lets not give too much thinking what sati in different levels meant, as it does not help. What matters is whenever there is an arisen of paramatha dhamma (only conditioned dhammas), and understanding them as anicca, dukkha and anatta. that is sati and that is panna. As whenever panna arise, sati would, isn't that wonderful. I call it a simple formula and as for different levels of meaning of sati, I leave it to my dreams to figure it out. Until then it is just those I able to be mindful is of interest of me :-), the rest that I am not, it is already gone with the wind, as become the past and not helpful at all to ponder over it. Cheers Ken O #74499 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jul 19, 2007 3:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Walking and General Deportment of the Body upasaka_howard Hi, Ken! Just using your post as a context for greeting you! It's been really long time since hearing from you, and I am happy to do so! :-) With metta, Howard #74500 From: "Robert" Date: Thu Jul 19, 2007 7:49 am Subject: Re: The Negative Impact of Christian Missionaries in Buddhist Countries avalo1968 Hello Justin, I appreciate your sincere wish to be helpful here. Forgive me if I am not seeing the point you are making correctly. I don't normally post here much anymore, but felt compelled to respond to your original message because I saw in it some subtle attitudes that are kind of hot-buttons for me. Justin: I know that some people believe that only Buddhists can damage Buddhism, but when people such as missionaries go on well-funded campaigns to convert Buddhists, I do see it as a threat. Many of the people who convert don't understand the Dhamma properly, which is why they can't refute missionaries who misrepresent or slander Buddhism. Robert A: Who are we to tell other Buddhist around the world that their understanding of Dhamma is somehow improper, unsophisticated, or incorrect? And, I have been having Mormans and Jehovah's Witnesses coming to my door all my life. I can deal with it and I don't have any reason to believe that Thai people are any less capable of doing so as well. I don't understand why you think they need our protection from this threat - that they are somehow less capable of making their own judgement about what the missionaries are saying than we are. Are you also saying the missionaries should be restricted here in the United States as well? I do believe your intention is very good, and I might be totally off- base in what I am saying, and if so, I apologize. Perhaps the problem is more in how I see what you say rather than what you say itself, in which case the problem is on my side, and not on yours. Regards, Robert A. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Justin" wrote: > > Hello Robert, > > Well, I'm not saying they need protection, but perhaps a warning about > the agenda of the missionaries. > > For example, just today, there was a large group of young Korean and > American missionaries on my campus. In the canteen, they set up > microphones, played popular music, and had traditional Korean dancing. > Why are they doing this? They are trying to lure people to their > weekend camp. Of course, they didn't mention anything about Jesus or > religion in their promotional stunt, because if they talked about > religion, they know people won't come to their camp. > > Once students are lured to the camp, then they are all given Bibles > and preached to about Christianity. I know this already, so I will > use my position here to warn as many students as I can about the camp. > > I think Thai people, or anyone that is being deceived, DO need to be > warned about activities like this. Don't you think it's good to let > people know when they are being lied to? I think the Dhamma would > support that. > > Best, > > Justin > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert" wrote: > > > > Hello Justin, > > > > I don't think you need to protect Thai people. They are capable of > > making their own judgements. > <....> > #74501 From: "nidive" Date: Thu Jul 19, 2007 8:17 am Subject: Re: Mindfulness of Walking and General Deportment of the Body nidive Hi Scott, > The potential error imbedded in the question is to be found in the > way 'an arahant' is defined. Whatever your definition of 'an arahant' is, it doesn't matter. 'An arahant' would never stray into alien territories. It's just impossible. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn47/sn47.006.than.html Sorry, I don't think there is any error or potential error in the VIEW that I am expressing. > Will you discuss under these conditions? I will wait for you to decide on the definition of 'an arahant'. For me, an arahant is an arahant is an arahant. > Perhaps now we can focus on the question at hand, recalling, > if you please, that it is views we are discussing, and not the > so-called person expressing them. I know. Scott never existed, neither in the past, present nor future. I am just conversing with a bunch of cittas and cetasikas masquerading as a self-existent entity. Swee Boon #74502 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Thu Jul 19, 2007 4:45 pm Subject: ker-choo! nichiconn Another sneeze, Sarah! this one in the jatakas r/t the sisters: http://sacred-texts.com/bud/j2/j2008.htm ["One day, we are told, as the Master sat discoursing with four persons round him, he sneezed."] According to the footnote, this sneeze is also in the Cullavagga. Seems we owe the mutual blessings of "long life" to a goblin who was allowed to eat those who didn't wish each other the same when one sneezed. really enjoying reading these tales. peace, connie #74503 From: "Phil" Date: Thu Jul 19, 2007 6:18 pm Subject: Re: Mindfulness of Walking and General Deportment of the Body philofillet ?@?@Hi Scott > Sez me, and who cares... I care, because I do sincerely appreciate being able to hear about this deep approach to Dhamma. For now, it might as well be Latin for my capacity to "get it", but that will (or won't) change someday. I think your post would be a good one to print out and take to Canada for my vacation. There will be more time to reflect on it. As for sati not being "defensive alertness", of course you're right. That is probably more akin to appamada. But the conventional, shallow meaning of sati (object is conceptual) is the only one that is helpful to me now. I would disagree that one should not listen to the Dhamma with a mind that is sensitive to what is helpful. The Buddha taught to different people with different inclinations, as you know, and I think an aspect of basic discretionary wisdom is to know when one appraoch is helpful and when one isn't - my standard is that if a teaching is helpful *here and now* for conditioning far fewer actions of body, speech and mind that cause harm to myself and others, it is a good teaching, but I guess that leaves me open to being a short-sighted self- helpee. That's fine for now. That's where I'm at. Thanks again for the time it took you to write. I know writing it out builds your confidence, so as usual I don't feel guilty about not responding to specific points. I'll drop this now. Metta, Phil #74504 From: "Phil" Date: Thu Jul 19, 2007 6:32 pm Subject: A request for your explanation of pariyatti and patipati, or links philofillet Hi all students of Acharn Sujin During my summer vacation when there is more time to reflect, I would like to learn more about just how pariyatti conditions patipati. I know I believed in it once, but now it just feels like a lot of thinking about paramattha dhammas and trying to understand them in daily life (emphasis on trying) so patipati results. I know Skin wrote a very popular post about how this process evolves. Perhaps someone could link me to that. (It was maybe a year and a half ago, I know Nina talked about Lodewijk's appreciation of it.)) Or could you link me to other posts that you think really get at the gist of it. (No time to read though UPs, alas) Or write your own thoughts on the matter. I'd appreciate it. I'd like to be able to benefit from AS's teaching again but until I gain any confidence in the way she teaches pariyatti leading to patipati I guess I won't be able to. Not that that matters to anyone but me.. Thanks! Metta, Phil p.s I'm leaving in 4 days. #74505 From: "Phil" Date: Thu Jul 19, 2007 6:26 pm Subject: Re: Mindfulness of Walking and General Deportment of the Body philofillet Hi again >my standard is that if a teaching is > helpful *here and now* for conditioning far fewer actions of body, > speech and mind that cause harm to myself and others, it is a good > teaching, but I guess that leaves me open to being a short-sighted self- > helpee. That's fine for now. That's where I'm at. I'll just add that some of the teachers whose teachings I'm referring to are Bhikkhu Bodhi, Thich Nhat Hahn and Nyanaponika Thera and Syadaw U Silananda. I just add that to make it clear that I am not going off half-cocked on my own interpretations. Blame those guys! (I suppose TNH is the most suspect wrong view wise, as lovely a human being as he is.) Metta, Phil #74506 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Jul 19, 2007 6:49 pm Subject: Re: Sammaadi.t.thi study corner scottduncan2 Dear All, 60. "Saying, 'Good, friend,' the bhikkhus delighted and rejoiced in the venerable Saariputta's words. Then they asked him a further question: 'But, friend, might there be another way in which a noble disciple is one of right view...and has arrived at this true Dhamma?' - 'There might be, friends. Saadhaavusoti kho te bhikkhuu aayasmato saariputtassa bhaasita.m abhinanditvaa anumoditvaa aayasmanta.m saariputta.m uttari.m pa~nha.m aapucchu.m: " siyaa panaavuso a~n~nopi pariyaayo yathaa ariyasaavako sammaadi.t.thi hoti ujugataassa di.t.thi, dhamme aveccappasaadena samannaagato' aagato ima.m saddhammanti?" 61. "When, friends, a noble disciple understands formations, the origins of formations, the cessation of formations, and the way leading to the cessation of the formations, in that way he is one of right view...and has arrived at this true Dhamma. Siyaa aavuso. Yato kho aavuso ariyasaavako sa"nkhaare ca pajaanaati, sa"nkhaarasamudaya~nca pajaanaati, sa"nkhaaranirodha~nca pajaanaati, sa"nkhaaranirodhagaamini.m pa.tipada~nca pajaanaati, ettaavataapi kho aavuso ariyasaavako sammaadi.t.thi hoti. Ujugataassa di.t.thi. Dhamme aveccappasaadena samannaagato aagato ima.m saddhammanti. 62. "And what are the formations, what is the origin of the formations, what is the cessation of the formations, what is the way leading to the cessation of the formations? There are three kinds of formations: the bodily formation, the verbal formation, the mental formation. With the arising of ignorance there is the arising of formations. With the cessation of ignorance there is the cessation of formations. The way leading to the cessation of formations is just this Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view...right concentration. Katame panaavuso sa"nkhaaraa? Katamo sa"nkhaarasamudayo? Katamo sa"nkhaaranirodho? Katamaa sa"nkhaaranirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa?Ti. Tayome aavuso sa"nkhaaraa: kaayasa"nkhaaro vaciisa"nkhaaro cittasa"nkhaaro. Avijjaasamudayaa sa"nkhaarasamudayo. Avijjaanirodhaa sa"nkhaaranirodho. Ayameva ariyo a.t.tha"ngiko maggo sa"nkhaaranirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa seyyathiida.m: sammaadi.t.thi sammaasa"nkappo, sammaavaacaa, sammaakammanto, sammaaaajiivo sammaavaayaamo sammaasati, sammaasamaadhi. 63. "When a noble disciple has thus understood formations, the origin of formations, the cessation of formations, and the way leading to the cessation of formations...he here and now makes an end of suffering. In that way too a noble disciple is one of right view... and has arrived at this true Dhamma. Yato kho aavuso ariyasaavako eva.m sa"nkhaare pajaanaati, eva.m sa"nkhaarasamudaya.m pajaanaati, eva.m sa"nkhaaranirodha.m pajaanaati, eva.m sa"nkhaaranirodhagaamini.m pa.tipada.m pajaanaati, so sabbaso raagaanusaya.m pahaaya pa.tighaanusaya.m pa.tivinodetvaa asmiiti di.t.thimaanaanusaya.m samuuhanitvaa avijja.m pahaaya vijja.m uppaadetvaa di.t.theva dhamme dukkhassantakaro hoti. Ettaavataapi kho aavuso ariyasaavako sammaadi.t.thi hoti. Ujugataassa di.t.thi. Dhamme aveccappasaadena samannaagato aagato ima.m saddhammanti. Sincerely, Scott. #74507 From: "Justin" Date: Thu Jul 19, 2007 6:53 pm Subject: Re: The Negative Impact of Christian Missionaries in Buddhist Countries just999in Hello Robert, I will reply to your comments here > > Robert A: > Who are we to tell other Buddhist around the world that their > understanding of Dhamma is somehow improper, unsophisticated, or > incorrect? And, I have been having Mormans and Jehovah's Witnesses > coming to my door all my life. I can deal with it and I don't have > any reason to believe that Thai people are any less capable of doing > so as well. I don't understand why you think they need our > protection from this threat - that they are somehow less capable of > making their own judgement about what the missionaries are saying > than we are. Are you also saying the missionaries should be > restricted here in the United States as well? I don't mean to say that their practice of the Dhamma is improper. I do know that most Thai people I have met know very little about the higher teachings of the Buddha. For instance most of my Thai students know nothing about cittas, napas and rupas. Beyond knowledge of the five precepts, their knowledge about the Dhamma is often sparse at best. Now I'm not even criticising that, but this is what makes them susceptible to missionaries. When missionaries tell them there is no salvation in Buddhism, they don't know how to refute this. When the missionaries say the Buddha was just a wise man, and that everyone needs Jesus for salvation, they don't know how to refute this. Missionaries are trained to ask questions like this, to get into the heads of Buddhists and other non-Christians. I've had my fair experiences in the USA with born-again Christians and other aggressive Christian sects too, but seeing them in Thailand and Asia is much different. I don't think Americans and Koreans should have the right to proselytize in other countries. It is cultural and religious imperialism. Proselytizing and promoting religious conversion causes division within family and society. Many countries have recognized this and ban missionary activity, though the missionaries still sneak in to these countries illegally. I know that some Buddhists may have converted from Christianity but it wasn't a result of aggressive Buddhist missionaries. I converted, but I was never a real Christian (I didn't believe any of it), and there wasn't a Buddhist missionary trying to convert me either. When missionaries are successful, what we get is an exported American-brand of fundamentalism. The Christian converts often have the same attitudes, politics and world-view of born-again Christians in America. And the worst part is, if they convert, they can't respect the Buddha anymore, because Buddha images are just "false idols". They also can't inter-marry with Buddhists unless the Buddhist converts, which is often what happens due to pressures. Once a Buddhist converts, then there is no chance that he/she will learn the Dhamma, because the convert isn't allowed to go to a temple or practice Buddhism in any way. Every convert is encouraged to bring more people to the church. It's all about propagation. It's a religious Amway! Haha Surely you must have seen some of this when you were in Thailand, right? Best, Justin > > I do believe your intention is very good, and I might be totally off- > base in what I am saying, and if so, I apologize. Perhaps the > problem is more in how I see what you say rather than what you say > itself, in which case the problem is on my side, and not on yours. > > Regards, > > Robert A. ... #74508 From: "Phil" Date: Thu Jul 19, 2007 7:48 pm Subject: Re: Mindfulness of Walking and General Deportment of the Body philofillet Hi Ken O Nice to see you again! > you are too overly concern about sati. I feel that lets not give too > much thinking what sati in different levels meant, as it does not > help. Well Ken, everybody is always telling me that right understanding is the most important thing, pariyati leading to patipati and so on. So I do, occasionally, try to understand what people quote from the commentaries and so on about the various levels of sati. I don't feel too concerned about not getting it yet. My policy these days is that if something doesn't make sense to my busy mind right away, it is not time to understand it. So not too concerned... What matters is whenever there is an arisen of paramatha > dhamma (only conditioned dhammas), and understanding them as anicca, > dukkha and anatta. that is sati and that is panna. Yes, but I don't think that thinking about understanding conditioned dhammas as anicca, dukkha and anatta is the way to go for me. I do, on occasion, when it happens, but mostly I think in conceptual terms about people and stories, about whether what I do, say and think is, will be or was harmful to myself and others. It's all very conceptual, because there is thinking about people and stories rather than the paramattha dhammas involved. (Which would still be conceptual for me - thinking about paramattha dhammas is still conceptual, of course.) Within a human lifetime that is made more wholesome thanks to this kind of conceptual reflection, there will (or won't be) conditions for better understanding the three signs of dhammas. And I think they will only be understood, gradually, as concentration develops. That is utterly clear from the suttanta. At this point I still don't believe that there is this kind of deepening concentration in daily life as taught by AS, but I also have my doubts about whether this kind of deepening concentration happens in meditation for busy worldings. (Since it doesn't happen for me, how can I not have doubts?) But I think the latter approach is more in line with the Buddha's teaching and provides the only hope for penetrative understanding. That is just my current prejudice. As whenever > panna arise, sati would, isn't that wonderful. Tes, I guess it's wonderful. Good to reflect on these deep teachings. Hopefully there will be better conditions for me to reflect on deep teachings. > I call it a simple formula and as for different levels of meaning of > sati, I leave it to my dreams to figure it out. Until then it is > just those I able to be mindful is of interest of me :-), the rest > that I am not, it is already gone with the wind, as become the past > and not helpful at all to ponder over it. Well, take care Ken. The Buddha said that there are three kinds of mentalities, like a festering sore, like a flash of lightning and like a diamond. The arahat's is like a diamond, the sotpanna (and the other two) are like a flash of lightning.The rest of us, says the Buddha, have minds like festering sores. I say it is wise to protect our festering minds instead of being led into complacency about akusala kamma patha by being fascinated by attractively deep teachings which do not actually help to condition abstention here and now. (For example, the teaching that abstention is pointless if it is not accompanied by panna. That's not helpful at all for people like me.) Not saying that you are being complacent about akusala kamma patha, but I was. Won't have time to carry this on, but nice to see your name on the list again. Metta, Phil #74509 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Jul 19, 2007 8:50 pm Subject: Re: Mindfulness of Walking and General Deportment of the Body kenhowardau Hi Phil (and Ken O), -------- KO: > > What matters is whenever there is an arisen of paramatha > dhamma (only conditioned dhammas), and understanding them as anicca, > dukkha and anatta. that is sati and that is panna. Ph: > Yes, but I don't think that thinking about understanding conditioned dhammas as anicca, dukkha and anatta is the way to go for me. -------- You are talking in terms of expectations again, aren't you? By thinking "this is the right way to go for me" you have put you a big fat "me" in the middle of the Dhamma. Take it out immediately; it doesn't belong there! :-) Ken H #74510 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Fri Jul 20, 2007 2:07 am Subject: Re: A request for your explanation of pariyatti and patipati, or links rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > > > Hi all students of Acharn Sujin > > During my summer vacation when there is more time to reflect, I > would like to learn more about just how pariyatti conditions > patipati. I know I believed in it once, but now it just feels like a > lot of thinking about paramattha dhammas and trying to understand > them in daily life (emphasis on trying) so patipati results. > > I +++++++++ Dear Phil, The "uninstructed worldling" (p40 of Mulapariyaya) "needs to be taught, because he possesses neither learning(agama) nor achievement. For he who possesses neither the learning running counter to the activity of conceiving because he has neglected to study, question, and discriminate the aggregates (khandhas), elements, sense bases (ayatanas) truths, law of conditionality and foundations of mindfulness etc , nor spiritual achievement because he has failed to achieve what should be achieved by practice is said to be 'uninstructed'"" endquote. Commentary to samyutta Nikaya (note 313 ) page 809 translation Bodhi: "for when learning declines the practice declines, and when the practice declines achievement declines. But when learning becomes full, persons rich in learning fill up the practice, and those filling up the practice fill up achievement. Thus when learning etc are increasing my Dispensation increases just like the full moon""endquote. Robert #74511 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jul 20, 2007 2:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] A request for your explanation of pariyatti and patipati, or links sarahprocter... Hi Phil, --- Phil wrote: > I know Skin wrote a very popular post about how this process > evolves. Perhaps someone could link me to that. (It was maybe a year > and a half ago, I know Nina talked about Lodewijk's appreciation of > it.)) .... S: This is Nina's message mentioning L's appreciation and quoting Sukin's good message. The # for that is given as well: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/53367 You might like to re-quote any parts for further discussion. Metta, Sarah ======== #74512 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jul 20, 2007 3:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] satipatthaana and sati+upatthaana sarahprocter... Hi Phil, Ken H & all, --- Phil wrote: > You probably know about this already, but I was interested to > read this from BB's commentarial notes to MN 10: > > "The word satipatthaana is a compound term. The first part, sati > (snip explanation of sati.) The second part is explained in two > ways : either as a shortened form of upattthaana, meaning "setting > up" or "establishing" - here, of mindfulness; or as patthaana, > meaning "domain" or "foundation." - again, of mindfulness. Thus the > four satipatthaanas may be understood as either the four ways of > setting up mindfulness or as the four objective domains of > mindfulness, to be amplified in the rest of the sutta. .... S: Thanks for sharing the note. I'm a bit rushed too, but for anyone interested, there's a lot more on this in U.P. too under: 'Satipatthana- meanings'. Here's the first message, #25165, in which Nina gives a translation of a Thai 'Dhamma Issue' on this point: >>>Issues of Dhamma, no 10 Chapter 10 Three Meanings of Satipatthåna. Issue of Analysis: Does satipatthåna classified as: ²the teacher¹s threefold surpassing of delight and aversion with regard to his disciples who practise² mean the path by which the Buddha and his disciples went? Conclusion regarding the analysis of this issue: ²The teacher¹s threefold surpassing of delight and aversion with regard to his disciples who practise² means indeed the path by which the Buddha and his disciples went. The sources which support this conclusion: 1.³Middle length Sayings² III, no 137 : Discourse on the Analysis of the Sixfold Sense-field. 2.The Papañcasúdaní, Commentary to the Satipatthånasutta, Middle Length Sayings. 3. The Commentary to the Book of Analysis, the Dispeller of Delusion (I, Ch 7, A. Suttanta Division). The explanation of the reason for this conclusion: These three sources explain the meaning of the three satipatthånas in the same way. We read in the ³Discourse on the Analysis of the Sixfold Sense-field² (Middle length Sayings² III, no 137): When it is said, ³There are three arousings of mindfulness each of which an ariyan disciple practises and, practising which, is an ariyan who is a teacher fit to instruct a group,² in reference to what is it said? As to this, monks, a teacher teaches dhamma to his disciples, compassionate, seeking their welfare, out of compassion, saying: ³This is for your welfare, this is for your happiness.² But his disciples do not listen, do not lend ear, do not prepare their minds for profound knowledge and, turning aside, move away from the teacher¹s instruction. Herein, monks, the Tathågata is neither delighted, he does not experience delight, nor is he annoyed, but he dwells mindful and clearly conscious (with sati-sampajañña). This, monks, is the first arousing of mindfulness that the ariyan practises and, practising it, is an ariyan who is a teacher fit to instruct a group. And again, monks, a teacher teaches dhamma to his disciples... saying: ²This is for your welfare, this is for your happiness.² Some of his disciples do not listen, do not lend ear, do not prepare their minds for profound knowledge and, turning aside, move away from the teacher¹s instruction. But some disciples listen, lend ear, prepare their minds for profound knowledge and, not turning aside, do not move away from the teacher¹s instruction. Herein, monks, the Tathågata is neither delighted, he does not experience delight, and neither is he depressed nor does he experience depression. Having ousted both delight and depression, he dwells with equanimity, mindful and clearly conscious. This, monks, is the second arousing of mindfulness that the ariyan practises and, practising it, is an ariyan who is a teacher fit to instruct a group. And again, monks, a teacher teaches dhamma to his disciples... saying: ²This is for your welfare, this is for your happiness.² His disciples listen, lend ear, prepare their minds for profound knowledge and, not turning aside, do not move from the teacher¹s instruction. Herein, monks, the Tathågata is delighted and he experiences delight but he dwells untroubled, mindful and clearly conscious. This, monks, is the third arousing of mindfulness that the ariyan practises and, practising it, is an ariyan who is a teacher fit to instruct a group. When it is said: ³There are three arousings of mindfulness each of which an ariyan disciple practises and, practising which, is an ariyan who is a teacher fit to instruct a group,² it is said in reference to this. In the ³Papañcasúdaní², Commentary to the Satipatthånasutta, and in the Commentary to the Book of Analysis, the Dispeller of Delusion (I, Ch 7, A. Suttanta Division) it is said: ³...There are three kinds of foundation of mindfulness: 1. the domain of mindfulness (sati gocaro) 2. the Master¹s threefold surpassing of resentment and gratification (delight) as regards the entry of his disciples [on the way of practice] . 3. mindfulness (sati). As to the domain of mindfulness, sati gocara, this refers to the object of sati, that is: the body, feelings, cittas, dhammas. As to mindfulness, sati, this refers to sati cetasika that is aware of the characteristics of realities. As regards the third kind, the Master¹s threefold surpassing of resentment and gratification (delight) as regards the entry of his disciples [on the way of practice], we read further on: ³As regards the passage: ŒThere are three foundations of mindfulness which the Noble One (ariyan) cultivates, and cultivating which the Noble One is a master who is worthy to instruct his flock, here it is the threefold surpassing by the Master of attachment and aversion as regards the entry of his disciples [on the way]¹ that is called the Œfoundation of mindfulness¹. The meaning of that is: Œfoundation¹ (patthåna) is because of what should be founded (patthapetabba); Œbecause of what should be made to occur.¹ ² Summarizing, satipatthåna which is the kind of ³the Master¹s threefold surpassing of resentment and gratification (delight) as regards the entry of his disciples [on the way of practice]², has the following meaning: it is the way along which the Buddha and his disciples went. ****** (translated from Thai) Nina.<<< ****** Metta, Sarah p.s. Remember to send us an e-card from Canada if you have time....Have a good trip! ========= #74513 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jul 20, 2007 3:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Response to E-card from Bangkok 3 (2) sarahprocter... Dear Han, Thanks for your further comments and for kindly quoting from the sutta (MN 78) on kusala and akusala sila. --- han tun wrote: > - For me, I think that I can avoid akusala siila. > However, that might not be as easy as I thought, > because, according to Ajahn Sujin, whatever I do, if > it is not accompanied by pa~n~naa and kusala citta, it > will be akusala. And I do not think I will have > pa~n~naa all the time for whatever I do. ... S: Whatever you do, if it's not kusala, it is akusala. As soon as we look at the computer, if it's not kusala, it's akusala. This doesn't mean all kusala sila is accompanied by panna. However, in order for there to be any development of kusala sila, it has to be accompanied by panna. .... > > - I think it will be even more difficult to cultivate > kusala siila. According to the sutta, kusala siila > originates from the mind unaffected by lust, by hate, > or by delusion. As my mind is not yet free from lust, > hate and delusion, I think I will not be able to > achieve kusala siila, the very first step in AN XI.1. .... S: Remember that a) no one cultivates kusala sila, and b) mind-states are impermanent. So, when it refers to the mind that is free from lust, hate and delusion, it is referring to the momentary cittas free from akusala (in the javana processes). At such moments, there is (kusala) sila. So this is the sense in which sila is always present and the 'foundation' of kusala with panna. .... > > - However, it does not discourage me. I believe that > siila on one hand, and samaadhi and pa~n~naa on the > other, are mutually supportive, like a tree and its > roots. As the roots grow the tree will grow, and as > the tree grows the roots will also grow. Therefore, I > am observing the five precepts, to the best of my > ability, although it may not be as perfect as the one > originated from the mind unaffected by lust, hate and > delusion. .... S: The mind is unaffected by these kilesa at moments with the 'pure' roots. When there is panna, the supports of sila and samadhi are there already. However, there is often (kusala) sila without panna. At such a time, there is also calm and right concentration, but no development of them. .... > > - And I believe that as the time goes by, my siila > will also grow, and meanwhile, my support for Phil's > ideas on siila never falters! .... S: Until his ideas change perhaps:-) .... > P.S. My computer will remain un-usable for some more > days. I will, meanwhile, think about the vipallaasa > aspect. .... S: Thanks, Han. I'll be very interested to hear more about your reflections on that point, these points and the next points! No hurry! Metta, Sarah ======== #74514 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Jul 20, 2007 4:52 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Walking and General Deportment of the Body scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, Thanks for the clarification; I appreciate it: Sarah: "As I understand, sampaja~n~na is a synonym for pa~n~na, often used with sati as in sati sampaja~n~na in the Satipatthana Sutta. Sampaja~n~na is the noun, sampajaanaati is the verb, as in 'he understands' sampajaanakaari refers, I think, to the one who understands. (In other contexts we have 'dhammaanusaari' ('the one conforming to the Norm') and 'saddhaanusaari' ('the one conforming by faith')as in Puggalapa~n~natti, 35..." Sincerely, Scott. #74515 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Fri Jul 20, 2007 5:00 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (63) nichiconn dear friends, 10. Ekaadasakanipaato 1. Kisaagotamiitheriigaathaava.n.nanaa part 9 On verses: 216. "Dukkho itthibhaavo, akkhaato purisadammasaarathinaa; sapattikampi hi dukkha.m, appekaccaa saki.m vijaataayo. 217. "Galake api kantanti, sukhumaaliniyo visaani khaadanti; janamaarakamajjhagataa, ubhopi byasanaani anubhonti. 216-217. A woman's state has been said to be painful by the Charioteer of Men Who Are To Be Tamed. Even the state of being a co-wife is painful. Some, having given birth once, even cut their throats. Some tender ones take poisons. [Some] having entered the belly are murderers. Both groups suffer misfortunes. CY: "Dukkho itthibhaavo"ti-aadikaa dve gaathaa a~n~nataraaya yakkhiniyaa itthibhaava.m garahantiyaa bhaasitaa. Tattha dukkho itthibhaavo akkhaatoti capalataa, gabbhadhaara.na.m, sabbakaala.m parapa.tibaddhavuttitaati evamaadiihi aadiinavehi itthibhaavo dukkhoti, purisadammasaarathinaa bhagavataa kathito. Sapattikampi dukkhanti sapattavaaso sapattiyaa saddhi.m sa.mvaasopi dukkho, ayampi itthibhaave aadiinavoti adhippaayo. Pruitt: 216. The two verses beginning a woman's state [has been said to be] painful were spoken by a certain yakkhinii who was finding fault with the state of being a woman. There, a woman's state has been said to be (akkhaato) painful means: it is changeable, bearing children and the condition of always being dependent on someone else. Because of danger such as these, a woman's state [is] painful was said (kathito) by the Charioteer of Men Who Are to Be Tamed, the Blessed One. Even the state of being a co-wife is painful (dukkha.m) means: living with a rival, even living with a co-wife is painful (dukkho). The meaning is: there is also this danger in the state of being a woman. Appekaccaa saki.m vijaataayoti ekaccaa itthiyo ekavaarameva vijaataa, pa.thamagabbhe vijaayanadukkha.m asahantiyo. Galake api kantantiiti attano giivampi chindanti. Sukhumaaliniyo visaani khaadantiiti sukhumaalasariiraa attano sukhumaalabhaavena kheda.m avisahantiyo visaanipi khaadanti. Some (app'-ekacccaa), having given birth (vijaataa) just once (eka-vaaram eva), are not able to endure the pain of giving birth of the first pregnancy. 217. [Some] even cut their throats means: they even cut their own neck. Some tender ones (sukhumaala-sariiraa), not being able to endure because of their tender state (sukhumaala-bhaavena) and fatigue, even take poisons. Janamaarakamajjhagataati janamaarako vuccati muu.lhagabbho. Maatugaamajanassa maarako, majjhagataa janamaarakaa kucchigataa, muu.lhagabbhaati attho. Ubhopi byasanaani anubhontiiti gabbho gabbhinii caati dvepi janaa mara.na~nca maara.nantikabyasanaani ca paapu.nanti. Apare pana bha.nanti "janamaarakaa naama kilesaa, tesa.m majjhagataa kilesasantaanapatitaa ubhopi jaayaapatikaa idha kilesapari.laahavasena, aayati.m duggatiparikkilesavasena byasanaani paapu.nantii"ti. Imaa kira dve gaathaa saa yakkhinii purimattabhaave attano anubhuutadukkha.m anussaritvaa aaha. Therii pana itthibhaave aadiinavavibhaavanaaya paccanubhaasantii avoca. [Some] having enetered the belly are murderers (jana-maaraka-majjha-gataa)* means: a murderer (jana-maarako) is said to be a wrongly positioned foetus because it is the killer of womankind (maatu-gaama-janassa maarako), murderers having gone into the belly (majjha-gataa jana-maarakaa), having gone into the womb, wrongly positioned foetuses. This is the meaaning. Both groups suffer misfortunes means: the foetus and the pregnant woman, both people suffer death and misery akin to death. But others say the murderers are the defilements. Having entered the belly (majjha-gataa), having fallen into the continuity of the defilements, both husband and wife here, through the burning fever of the defilements, in the future, because of the calamity of a realm of misery, suffer destruction. It is said that the yakkhini spoke these two verses, remembering the misery she had experienced in her preceeding existence. The the therii spoke, speaking the disclosure of the dangers of a woman's state. *Cf. EV II: "gone into the midst of people-killers (= in hell with murderers?)" and POEMS: "considered as murderers in hell." ===tbc, connie #74516 From: Ken O Date: Fri Jul 20, 2007 10:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Walking and General Deportment of the Body ashkenn2k Hi Phil > Yes, but I don't think that thinking about understanding > conditioned dhammas as anicca, dukkha and anatta is the way to go > for me. I do, on occasion, when it happens, but mostly I think in > conceptual terms about people and stories, about whether what I do, > > say and think is, will be or was harmful to myself and others. It's all very conceptual, because there is thinking about people and > stories rather than the paramattha dhammas involved. (Which would > still be conceptual for me - thinking about paramattha dhammas is > still conceptual, of course.) Within a human lifetime that is made > more wholesome thanks to this kind of conceptual reflection, there > will (or won't be) conditions for better understanding the three > signs of dhammas. And I think they will only be understood, > gradually, as concentration develops. That is utterly clear from > the suttanta. At this point I still don't believe that there is this kind of deepening concentration in daily life as taught by AS, but I also have my doubts about whether this kind of deepening > concentration happens in meditation for busy worldings. (Since it > doesn't happen for me, how can I not have doubts?) But I think the > latter approach is more in line with the Buddha's teaching and > provides the only hope for penetrative understanding. That is just > my current prejudice. K: Hmm to me it is not good for you, then forget about it. Everyone inclinations is different. But the taste of dhamma is the same as the three characteristics is the foundation for the Buddha dhamma no matter what is your practise :-). All Abhidhamma is about these three as the base, one can recite the whole three baskets but without understanding these three would be like trying to grasp air with the hand. You can even recite all the commentary by hard but without being mindful of these three, it is totally just memory. An intellectual process only. > > Tes, I guess it's wonderful. Good to reflect on these deep > teachings. Hopefully there will be better conditions for me to > reflect on deep teachings. K: hey we do not walk a thousand miles in one day, we do it bit by bit. Take it superficially first, everyone got to start somewhere, slowly as it tickles down, eventually it also going to be deep as the ocean. Did you see Buddha becoming Buddha in just one Aeon, my god it is many aeons of walking the distance, reflecting, thinking or pondering on these characteristics. So who could say mere reflecting is not good. > > Well, take care Ken. The Buddha said that there are three kinds > of > mentalities, like a festering sore, like a flash of lightning and > like a diamond. The arahat's is like a diamond, the sotpanna (and > the other two) are like a flash of lightning.The rest of us, says > the Buddha, have minds like festering sores. I say it is wise to > protect our festering minds instead of being led into complacency > about akusala kamma patha by being fascinated by attractively deep > teachings which do not actually help to condition abstention here > and now. (For example, the teaching that abstention is pointless if > > it is not accompanied by panna. That's not helpful at all for > people like me.) Not saying that you are being complacent about akusala kamma patha, but I was. k: have you heard in the suttas that Buddha say sati is your guardian of the mind :-) And Sati always arise with panna, and panna is always present when we reflect the three characteristics, hmm as I said earlier, a simple formula. How to be complacent when panna arise :-) Cheers kind regards Ken O #74517 From: "colette" Date: Fri Jul 20, 2007 9:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Yogacara only, to cross Ts and dot Is ksheri3 Good Morning Larry, But that's a critical point: You clearly made the cognition that YOU DO NOT MAKE MISTAKES and that ONLY OTHERS MAKE MISTAKES. This implies that you are in a position of authority and a part of the Caste System which discriminates the necessities of life from others while obsessing on the gluttony of a personal gratification. The Genii is out of the bottle, there is no chance you can return it's effects into the bottle and under your control. If you meant to say that you misunderstood what I was saying then why didn't the words: I don not understand this or that, then give an example of how you view it which would help me to understand how it is that you viewed my statement WHEREUPON I could help you to see. But NO, you chose to empower me with the ability to know EVERYTHING YOU THINK AND DO and therefore you chose to empose upon me the results for YOUR BEHAVIOR. You have to deal with these problems not me. I look forward to hearing from you. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@... wrote: > > Hi Colette, > > Thanks for the interesting reply. > > L: "...since we don't seem to be on the same page." > > colette: "So you mean to say that YOU own the page and that YOU are > writing the script?" > > L: No, I just meant you misunderstood what I was trying to say. But it's > of no great consequence. We can revisit later. > > Larry > #74518 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jul 20, 2007 8:14 am Subject: Grammar Correction Re: [dsg] Re: What other teacher teaches ... upasaka_howard Hi, all - In a message dated 7/18/07 9:56:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Upasaka writes: > In any case, I think there is no Buddhist list anywhere to compare with > DSG. ===================== For non-native speakers of English, I wish to correct my English usage in the foregoing. It should be "... to compare *to* [not 'with'] DSG." With metta, Howard #74519 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Jul 20, 2007 3:53 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Yogacara only, to cross Ts and dot Is lbidd2 Hi Colette, C: "You clearly made the cognition that YOU DO NOT MAKE MISTAKES and that ONLY OTHERS MAKE MISTAKES." L: I thought I said there is no me and no you and therefore no my mistake and no your mistake in the yogacara view. Larry #74520 From: "Phil" Date: Fri Jul 20, 2007 4:24 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A request for your explanation of pariyatti and patipati, or links philofillet Thanks Sarah! I look forward to studying it. And Robert, for the post re the importance of learning. I'm going through a bit of a non- intellectual stage but I think it'll pass and there will be more application to the studying of dhammas. Right now, for wahtever reason, the mind refuses to settle on Abhidhamma. That will pass. Robert, Sukin, Connie and others - still intending to get back to that thread from a few days ago in which you responded to me. Thanks for waiting ...with bated breath, no doubt! Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Phil, > > --- Phil wrote: > > > I know Skin wrote a very popular post about how this process > > evolves. Perhaps someone could link me to that. (It was maybe a year > > and a half ago, I know Nina talked about Lodewijk's appreciation of > > it.)) > .... > #74521 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Jul 21, 2007 12:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] ker-choo! sarahprocter... Hi Connie, Thanks for the sneezing reference. It's all so 'daily life', isn't it? I liked this comment: "All this was told to the Blessed One. He said: "Brethren, common folk are superstitious. When you sneeze, and they say, 'Long life to you, Sir!' I permit you to answer, 'The same to you'." " .... S: It's like our 'Bless you!'. It may be superstitious, but that's no reason not to thank the giver or 'same to you' as common courtesy. ... --- L G SAGE wrote: > Another sneeze, Sarah! > this one in the jatakas r/t the sisters: > http://sacred-texts.com/bud/j2/j2008.htm > ["One day, we are told, as the Master sat discoursing with four persons > round him, he sneezed."] According to the footnote, this sneeze is also > in the Cullavagga. Seems we owe the mutual blessings of "long life" to > a goblin who was allowed to eat those who didn't wish each other the > same when one sneezed. > really enjoying reading these tales. .... S: Share any other snippets that appeal.... Metta, Sarah p.s Glad to understand amongst the many threads that you now have broadband, thanks to your kind mother, I believe. L.G.? ======== #74522 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Jul 21, 2007 1:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Insects? Robots? Re-evaluating Walking Meditation sarahprocter... Hi James, --- buddhatrue wrote: > You said you wouldn't be able to > > comment further, so that make me a little bold:-)) > > James: Well, I wasn't going to, but your lightly smug tone is > practically guaranteed to get a rise out of me! ;-)) .... S: That occurred to me ;-)) ... <...> > What I had in mind is this quote from the Vism.: > > "Postures: walking suits one, standing or sitting or lying down > another. So he should try them, like the abode, for three days each, > and that posture is suitable in which his unconcentrated mind becomes > concentrated or his concentrated mind more so. Any other should be > understood as unsuitable." > Vism. IV, 41 > > I think that this is pretty straight forward in advocating walking > meditation. ... S: it seems to be saying (to me) that what is suitable for one is not suitable for another. Like now, different postures suit us. Just above this quote the Vism indicates how different foods and climates suit us. Isn't this true? Of course in this context in the Vism, the references are to access and absorption concentration. .... <..> > > Hope you're having some good hikes in the States. > > James: Well, I haven't been hiking too much as it gets up to 112 F > during the day. ;-)). > > Don't walk too slowly, > > otherwise Sebastien won't find it fun at all and you may get some > strange > > looks:)). > > James: I don't know why, but I seem to always walk slower than most > people, and Sebastian is no exception. I'm always trying to catch up. > I couldn't even keep up with you, Sarah, in Hong Kong! ;-)) .... S: Again, walking quickly suits some and walking slowly suits others ;-)). A long heat wave here as well in Hong Kong, so even I'm walking a little slower these days. Even Global Warning is reported to be running at twice the speed here as anywhere else. But, we're headed for a cool change, so will be back in fast stride in no time... Look forward to hearing any more from you. Enjoy the rest of your holidays. Metta, Sarah ========= #74523 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Jul 21, 2007 2:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Walking and General Deportment of the Body sarahprocter... Hi Ken O, Like the others, I'd like to also say how glad I am to see you posting again!! --- Ken O wrote: > K: Hmm to me it is not good for you, then forget about it. Everyone > inclinations is different. But the taste of dhamma is the same as > the three characteristics is the foundation for the Buddha dhamma no > matter what is your practise :-). All Abhidhamma is about these > three as the base, one can recite the whole three baskets but without > understanding these three would be like trying to grasp air with the > hand. You can even recite all the commentary by hard but without > being mindful of these three, it is totally just memory. An > intellectual process only. .... S: And without a clear understanding of namas and rupas, there will never be an understanding of these three characteristics, except on an intellectual basis. .... > K: hey we do not walk a thousand miles in one day, we do it bit by > bit. Take it superficially first, everyone got to start somewhere, > slowly as it tickles down, eventually it also going to be deep as the > ocean. Did you see Buddha becoming Buddha in just one Aeon, my god > it is many aeons of walking the distance, reflecting, thinking or > pondering on these characteristics. So who could say mere reflecting > is not good. .... S: ;-) You always make me smile, Ken O! I agree with what you say, of course. ... > k: have you heard in the suttas that Buddha say sati is your guardian > of the mind :-) And Sati always arise with panna, and panna is > always present when we reflect the three characteristics, hmm as I > said earlier, a simple formula. How to be complacent when panna > arise :-) Cheers ... S: Cheers too! Look forward to hearing more from you!! Metta, Sarah ======== #74524 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Jul 21, 2007 2:16 am Subject: Re: Grammar Correction Re: [dsg] Re: What other teacher teaches ... sarahprocter... Hi Howard, --- upasaka@... wrote: > > In any case, I think there is no Buddhist list anywhere to compare > with > > DSG. > ===================== > For non-native speakers of English, I wish to correct my English > usage > in the foregoing. It should be "... to compare *to* [not 'with'] DSG." .... S: perhaps either...purists might prefer 'with'! From my 'Pocket Oxford Dict': "COMPARE [1] v. estimate similarity of (one thing WITH or TO another; two things); liken, regard as similar (TO); bear comparison (WITH);...." Thx to Scott for reminding me to 'sink' my teeth into the Dhamma, rather than getting 'stuck' there:-). Metta, Sarah ====== #74525 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:57 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (63) nichiconn Dear Friends, 10. Ekaadasakanipaato 1. Kisaagotamiitheriigaathaava.n.nanaa part 10 On verses: 218. "Upavija~n~naa gacchantii, addasaaha.m pati.m mata.m; panthamhi vijaayitvaana, appattaava saka.m ghara.m. 219. "Dve puttaa kaalakataa, patii ca panthe mato kapa.nikaaya; maataa pitaa ca bhaataa, .dayhanti ca ekacitakaaya.m. 218. Going along, about to bring forth, I saw my husband dead. Having given birth on the path, [I had] not yet arrived at my own house. 219. Two sons dead and a husband dead upon the path for miserable [me]. [My] mother and father were burning upon one [funeral] pyre. CY: "Upavija~n~naa gacchantii"ti-aadikaa dve gaathaa pa.taacaaraaya theriyaa pavatti.m aarabbha bhaasitaa. Tattha upavija~n~naa gacchantiiti upagatavijaayanakaalaa magga.m gacchantii, apattaava saka.m geha.m panthe vijaayitvaana pati.m mata.m addasa.m ahanti yojanaa. Pruitt: 218. The two verses beginning going along, about to bring forth were spoken with reference to Therii Pa.tacaaraa. There, going along, about to bring forth means: going along the road when the time to give birth arrived, I had not arrived at my own home. I gave birth on the road, and I saw my dead husband. That is the connection. Kapa.nikaayaati varaakaaya. Imaa kira dve gaathaa pa.taacaaraaya tadaa sokummaadapattaaya vuttaakaarassa anukara.navasena itthibhaave aadiinavavibhaavanatthameva theriyaa vuttaa. 219. For miserable [me] means: for wretched [me]. It is said that these two verses, because they are in imitation of the manner in which Pa.taacaaraa spoke at the time whe was out of her mind with grief, were spoken by the therii to show the dangers of the state of women. On verse: 220. "Khii.nakuliine kapa.ne, anubhuuta.m te dukha.m aparimaa.na.m; assuu ca te pavatta.m, bahuuni ca jaatisahassaani. 220. Miserable woman, with family annihilated, you have suffered immeasurable pain; and you have shed tears for many thousands of births. CY: Ubhayampeta.m udaahara.nabhaavena aanetvaa idaani attano anubhuuta.m dukkha.m vibhaaventii "khii.nakuline"ti-aadimaaha. Tattha khii.nakulineti bhogaadiihi paariju~n~napattakulike. Kapa.neti parama-ava~n~naata.m patte. Ubhaya~nceta.m attano eva aamantanavacana.m. Anubhuuta.m te dukha.m aparimaa.nanti imasmi.m attabhaave, ito purimattabhaavesu vaa anappaka.m dukkha.m tayaa anubhavita.m. Idaani ta.m dukkha.m ekadesena vibhajitvaa dassetu.m "assuu ca te pavattan"ti-aadi vutta.m.Tassattho- imasmi.m anamatagge sa.msaare paribbhamantiyaa bahukaani jaatisahassaani sokaabhibhuutaaya assu ca pavatta.m, avisesita.m katvaa vutta~nceta.m, mahaasamuddassa udakatopi bahukameva siyaa. 220. After bringing in these two [verses] as an example, she now explains her own immeasurable pain and says [the verse] beginning: [Miserable women,] with family annihilated. There, with family annihilated means: belonging to a family that has lost its wealth, etc. Miserable woman means: you who have arrived at the greatest degradation. And both of these [words] are vocative forms referring to herself. You (te) have suffered immeasurable pain (dukkha.m) means: in this existence now and in previous existences, you (tayaa) have suffered no small amount of pain (dukkha.m)*. Now, to show that pain, one part is dealt with in detail by saying: and you have shed tears, etc. This is the meaning: roaming in this continued existence without beginning or end, you have shed tears, overwhelmed by grief, for many thousands of births. And this is said without making a distinction, for [the tears] would be as much water as in the great ocean. *In other words, the verse has dukha.m for dukkha.m, m.c. ===tbc, connie. #74526 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Jul 21, 2007 5:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] A request for your explanation of pariyatti and patipati, or links jonoabb Hi Phil Let me add my 2 cents'worth ;-)) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > > Thanks Sarah! I look forward to studying it. And Robert, for the post > re the importance of learning. I'm going through a bit of a non- > intellectual stage but I think it'll pass and there will be more > application to the studying of dhammas. Right now, for wahtever reason, > the mind refuses to settle on Abhidhamma. That will pass. Think of it quite simply as nothing more than this: unless the Dhamma that is unique to a Buddha has been heard and understood, there cannot be any development of that path. We have to have heard, pondered over and understood the teaching on dhammas, conditionality, no-self, etc in order for there to be any direct experience of same. So it's not really a matter of an 'intellectul stage', rather a matter of getting a start. Jon #74527 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jul 21, 2007 1:35 am Subject: Re: Grammar Correction Re: [dsg] Re: What other teacher teaches ... upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 7/21/07 5:26:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbo tt@... writes: > > For non-native speakers of English, I wish to correct my English > >usage > >in the foregoing. It should be "... to compare *to* [not 'with'] DSG." > .... > S: perhaps either...purists might prefer 'with'! > > From my 'Pocket Oxford Dict': > > "COMPARE [1] v. estimate similarity of (one thing WITH or TO another; two > things); liken, regard as similar (TO); bear comparison (WITH);...." > > Thx to Scott for reminding me to 'sink' my teeth into the Dhamma, rather > than getting 'stuck' there:-). > ==================== No, it is "to" that is correct. (The "purists" would be wrong. :-) All groups of all kinds can be compared *with* DSG: Those that are not religion groups and those that are not Buddhist will be seen as very different, those that are Mahayanist will be seen as similar but quite different, those that are Theravadin will be seen as more similar, and none will be seen to be as good. But when one says that no Buddhist group compares *to* DSG, that means that no other Buddhist group is comparable - no other one is even close in quality. Compare 1 and 2 (a) in the following definition from Merriam-Webster: __________________ Main Entry: 1com·pare Function: verb Pronunciation: k&m-'par, -'per Inflected Form(s): com·pared ; com·par·ing Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French comparer, from Latin comparare to couple, compare, from compar like, from com- + par equal transitive senses 1 : to represent as similar : LIKEN 2 a : to examine the character or qualities of especially in order to discover resemblances or differences b : to view in relation to 3 : to inflect or modify (an adjective or adverb) according to the degrees of comparison One says that "A cannot be compared to B" or that "A is not comparable to B," to assert that A is not at all similar to B (and typically not as good), but saying that "A cannot be compared with B" means that for some reason, for example their never being present at the same time or nearby in place, there is no possibility of looking at the features of A & B to see to what extent they match up or do not. So, while no other internet Buddhist discussion group is comparable to DSG, they ALL can be be compared *with* it - to their disadvantage, IMO. Another example: Hip-hop music can be compared with classical music (my conclusions being "radically different" and "inferior in musical quality and complexity"), but it can *not* be compared TO classical music. (It can be compared WITH it but cannot be LIKENED to it.) After comparing A *with* B, one may then know whether or not A compares *to* B. With metta, Howard #74528 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Sat Jul 21, 2007 6:28 am Subject: Fwd: Meditation - Topic Overview abhidhammika --- In BuddhistWellnessGroup@yahoogroups.com, DESMOND CHIONG wrote: Meditation - Topic Overview What is meditation? Meditation is the practice of focusing your attention to help you feel calm and give you a clear awareness about your life. Eastern philosophies have recognized the health benefits of meditation for thousands of years. Meditation is now widely practiced in the West, with the belief that it has positive effects on health. Two meditation techniques are most commonly used: concentrative and mindful. Concentrative meditation focuses on a single image, sound, mantra (words spoken or sung in a pattern), or your own breathing. Mindful meditation does not focus on a single purpose; rather, you are aware of all thoughts, feelings, sounds, or images that pass through your mind. Meditation usually involves slow, regular breathing and sitting quietly for 15 to 20 minutes. What is meditation used for? People use meditation to help treat a wide range of physical and mental problems, including: Addictive behaviors, such as drug, nicotine, and alcohol use. Anxiety, stress, and depression. High blood pressure. A report from the National Institutes of Health (NIH) recommends meditation as one of the first treatments for high blood pressure. Pain. Managing hot flashes, which are sensations of intense body heat that affect women around the time of menopause. Most of these conditions also require conventional treatment for best results. People also use meditation to relieve anxieties from long-term (chronic) conditions such as HIV and cancer. Is meditation safe? Since meditation usually involves sitting quietly for a period of time and breathing deeply, anyone who cannot sit comfortably or who has respiratory problems may have difficulty practicing meditation. Some people with mental health problems, such as attention deficit hyperactivity disorder or schizophrenia, may not be able to use meditation therapy effectively. Meditation is not thought to have any negative side effects or complications when combined with conventional medical treatment, but it is not considered appropriate or safe for acute, life-threatening situations. Always tell your doctor if you are using an alternative therapy or if you are thinking about combining an alternative therapy with your conventional medical treatment. It may not be safe to forgo your conventional medical treatment and rely only on an alternative therapy. var externalUrlList = new Array( 'xxx'); Next Article: Topic OverviewRelated InformationCredits [input] selectNextArticle('NextTopicPulldown',s_furl); WebMD Medical Reference from Healthwise Click to join BuddhistWellnessGroup HTML code:
Click here to join BuddhistWellnessGroup
Click to join BuddhistWellnessGroup
#74529 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Jul 21, 2007 7:31 am Subject: Re: Mindfulness of Walking and General Deportment of the Body scottduncan2 Dear Phil, Thanks for your kind post. One phrase kept me pondering, sorry about the delay: P: "...I know writing it out builds your confidence..." Scott: Not that it is that important, but writing it out builds understanding (pa~n~na) for me, not confidence (sadhaa). The confidence in the Dhamma is already quite strong - the understanding is out of balance, at least in my case, as I look at it. I can't help having confidence in the Three Baskets. Its going to take a long time to even read the content once, let alone start to understand what it is. So, for me, every time I type something out, its like going over it again, like reading with my eyes and hands, like getting a feel for it, hearing it manually... This is pariyatti, although it seems like pa.tipatti, and will lead to pa.tivedha. It all works inter-relatedly, I think (hence - no cheap ploy for sympathy - who cares?) Sincerely, Scott. #74530 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Jul 21, 2007 1:22 pm Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge indriyabala Hi Sarah (and others) - >S: (giving more background information) >Nanamoli E) in Sammohavinodani, revised by L.S. Cousins: >"'vineyya loke abhijjhaa-domanassa"m' ('having put away covetousness and grief regarding the world') in order to point out the factors to be abandoned. Herein, 'vineyya' ("having put away") [means] having put away by means of putting away through substitution of opposite qualities, and by means of putting away through suppression." T: Why is 'vineyya' a past participle? I search the PTS Dictionary and found that it is a gerund: "Vineti [vi+neti; cp. vinaya] 1. to remove, put away, give up. -- ppr. vinayam J vi.499; Pot. 3rd sg. vinayetha Sn 361, & vineyya Sn 590; imper. vinaya Sn 1098, & vinayassu Sn 559. -- ger. vineyya Sn 58. ..." Not only TB uses the present tense in the translation, another translator at tipitaka.lk also does it. Take the following passage as an evidence, for example. 007.02. "Bhikkhus, these five are obstructions. What five? "The obstructions sensual interest, anger, sloth and torpor, restlessnes and worry and doubts. Bhikkhus, these five are obstructions. "Bhikkhus, to dispel these five obstructions the four establishments of mindfulness should be developed. What four? "Here, the bhikkhu abides mindful and aware reflecting the body in the body to dispel covetousness and displeasure in the world. The bhikkhu abides mindful and aware reflecting feelings in feelings, ... re ... the mental states in the mind ... re ... and thoughts in the Teaching, to dispel covetousness and displeasure in the world. Bhikkhus, to dispel these five obstructions, these four establishments of mindfulness should be developed." [Anguttara Nikaaya 007. Satipannhaanavaggo The section on establishing mindfulness] > S: Let me know if this helps/doesn't help. > > Metta, > > Sarah T: I know that your research shows the majority of translators use the perfect continuous tense "having put away". The reason is not clear to me. Thank you very much for the wonderful research you did, it helps. Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Tep & all, > (snipped) > .... > S: This is the Pali: > > "idha bhikkhave bhikkhu kaaye kaayaanupassii viharati aataapii sampajaano > satimaa vineyya loke abhijjhaadomanassa"m." > > Transl A) Soma's above: > "Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu lives contemplating the body in the body, > ardent, clearly comprehending (it) and mindful (of it), having overcome, > in this world, covetousness and grief; > > Transl B) TB's above: > "There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself > — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference > to the world. > > Buddhadatta dict: > Vineyya (abs of vineti): having removed,..... > > Walshe C) in DN transl: > ".......having put aside hankering and fretting in the world" > > Nanamoli & Bodhi D) in MN transl: > "......having put away covetousness and grief for the world." > > Nanamoli E) in Sammohavinodani, revised by L.S. Cousins: > > "'vineyya loke abhijjhaa-domanassa"m' ('having put away covetousness and > grief regarding the world') in order to point out the factors to be > abandoned. Herein, 'vineyya' ("having put away") [means] having put away > by means of putting away through substitution of opposite qualities, and > by means of putting away through suppression." > .... > (snipped) #74531 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Jul 21, 2007 9:12 pm Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge scottduncan2 Dear Tep and Sarah, I'm just trying to learn about this with you. Here are some definitions: "The present perfect continuous tense is formed with the present tense of the verb to have + been + -ing form: I/you/we/they have been waiting He/she/it has been waiting We use the present perfect continuous tense to speak about situations which started in the past and are still continuing, or which have just finished and affect the present: I've been living here for 12 years. I feel tired because I've been working all day. We can use both the present perfect simple and the present perfect continuous to speak about situations that started in the past and are still continuing and also about situations that have just finished and affect the present. The difference between the two tenses in both these situations is one of focus. If we say: I've been writing letters all morning. we are focusing on the action of writing itself, and thinking of it as an extended activity that may not have finished yet. If we say: I've written six letters this morning. we are focusing on the idea that the six letters have already been completed. Another difference is that we use the present perfect continuous to speak about more temporary situations and actions, and the present perfect simple to speak about more permanent situations and actions. The television has been playing up lately. That television has never worked, as far as I can remember. For more information about the present perfect continuous, see the following web site: http://www.edufind.com/english/grammar/Tenses8.cfm" "In English, the verbal form ending in -ing, conveying the meaning of the verb but used as a noun. The advantage of this form is its immediacy; Martha Stewart Living magazine is a case in point." www.catch-word.com/glossary.html "A gerund phrase includes a present participle (a verb form ending in -ing) plus any complements and modifiers. Since a gerund phrase always acts as a noun, it can serve as the subject or object of a verb, as a predicate nominative, or as the object of a preposition." www.baylorschool.org/academics/english/studentwork/stover/toolbox/grammar.html Scott: Vineyya is a gerund, as you point out Tep. Would that make the translation of 'vineyya loke abhijjhaa-domanassa"m', which was rendered, 'having put away covetousness and grief regarding the world' in the Dispeller of Delusion, 'putting away covetousness and grief regarding the world'? How do you see the meaning of the text changing (if at all) as a result? Would this refer to the timing of things somehow? I've no time left to look at this further, but will, out of interest. Thanks. Sincerely, Scott. #74532 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Sat Jul 21, 2007 9:19 pm Subject: Re: ker-choo! nichiconn Hi Sarah, All, > http://sacred-texts.com/bud/j2/j2008.htm > ["One day, we are told, as the Master sat discoursing with four persons round him, he sneezed."] ..S: I liked this comment: "All this was told to the Blessed One. He said: "Brethren, common folk are superstitious. When you sneeze, and they say, 'Long life to you, Sir!' I permit you to answer, 'The same to you'." " ... S: It's like our 'Bless you!'. It may be superstitious, but that's no reason not to thank the giver or 'same to you' as common courtesy. .. connie: Sure, even though at first he'd more or less said not to do so since it really didn't bestow any such blessing, so saying it was allowed after all might be like a prescription for harmonious relations & not giving others grounds to fault the teachings/followers. The story reminded me of the part of "The All-Embracing Net of Views" discussing Suppiya speaking in dispraise of the Buddha: <> etc. S: p.s Glad to understand amongst the many threads that you now have broadband, thanks to your kind mother, I believe. L.G.? ======== Yep!! Maybe more an altar ego for me than an alter? peace, connie #74533 From: "colette" Date: Sat Jul 21, 2007 1:05 pm Subject: Vipakavijnana ksheri3 Good Day Group, I've returned after a few days rest and was shocked by my inspection of the Western theological groups I'm a member of. There is a discussion, which I started and has evolved into a put-down session amongst the male members of the group, while a female member of the group picked up on the subtleties of my posts and she began a tyrade on the male, patriarchal system of pschology. I would've gone off in my insanity of attacking the escape routes the opposition would take before making a full frontal assault on the issues which are the fundamentals of the obscuration which blinds the male psyche from seeing what it is they cling to and exalt in their own insanity. As par for the course I went to an alley where I could read and allow my emotions to calm down so that I could maintain a positive view. Today I took with me the TRIMSIKA from Vasubandhu. I got to verse 7 and it suddenly struck me: THEY CANNOT SEE WHAT I'M DOING! ... This shock was felt today after I read the 6th verse of the Trimsika. these egotistical and single-minded fraternities, as I've said since 2004 to Sam Webster, and since I've known since 1981, they are completely blind. toodles, colette #74534 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Jul 22, 2007 2:56 am Subject: Re: What is the wrong view? (References from the MN anthology) jonoabb Hi Tep and Larry My apologies to you (and others) for my the delay in replying. I've been struggling with a severly inflamed shoulder tendon lately, very painful and also very time consuming in terms of treatment and care. However, I'm on the mend now, and making good progress. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Hi Larry and Jon, - > > L: I should also remind you that faith always arises with sati, but not > always with panna (insight). [Message #74314] > > T: Appropriate attention(yoniso-manasikara) is the nutriment for > mindfulness and alertness. Conviction or faith(saddha) is the nutriment > for appropriate attention. Listening to the Dhamma is the nutriment for > conviction. See AN 10.61. > http://www.purifymind.com/StreamEntry.htm Tep, thanks for the sutta quote showing the important role played by saddha in the development of awareness. Larry, when you say that faith does not always arise with panna (insight), I think you're not referring to the mental factor of saddha but rather to a more convnetional idea of 'faith' -- would that be right? To my understanding, the mental factor of saddha arises with all moments of kusala consciousness. Jon #74535 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Jul 22, 2007 3:04 am Subject: Re: What is the wrong view? (References from the MN anthology) jonoabb Hi Tep --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, Larry - > > ... > L: Can kusala citta be a factor of wrong path? > > T: No, a wrong path is associated with akusala citta and the three bad > conducts. Thanks for these comments. This is an area that I'm a little bit unsure of. Do you have any quotes from the texts (e.g., Patisampaddha Maggga) on wrong path? I'd be interested to see them. Thanks in advance. Jon #74536 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Sat Jul 21, 2007 10:50 pm Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (63) nichiconn dear friends, 10. Ekaadasakanipaato 1. Kisaagotamiitheriigaathaava.n.nanaa part 11 verse: 221. "Vasitaa susaanamajjhe, athopi khaaditaani puttama.msaani; hatakulikaa sabbagarahitaa, matapatikaa amatamadhigacchi.m. 221. Then as one who lived in a cemetary, I ate the flesh of my sons.** [Now,] with my family destroyed, despised by all, with [my] husband dead, I attained the undying. CY: Vasitaa susaanamajjheti manussama.msakhaadikaa sunakhii si"ngaalii ca hutvaa susaanamajjhe vusitaa. Khaaditaani puttama.msaaniiti byagghadiipibi.laaraadikaale puttama.msaani khaaditaani. Hatakulikaati vina.t.thakulava.msaa. Sabbagarahitaati sabbehi gharavaasiihi garahitaa garahappattaa. Matapatikaati vidhavaa. Ime pana tayo pakaare purimattabhaave attano anuppatte gahetvaa vadati. Eva.mbhuutaapi hutvaa adhicca laddhaaya kalyaa.namittasevaaya amatamadhigacchi,nibbaana.m anuppattaa. Pruitt: 221. As one who lived (vasitaa) in a cemetary means: as one who lived (vusitaa) in a cemetary, having become a female dog or female jackal eating human flesh. I ate the flesh of my sons means: I ate the flesh of my sons when I was a tiger, leopard, or cat. With my family destroyed means: with the lineage of my family destroyed. Despised by all (sabba-garahitaa) means: despised (garahitaa), receiving reproach (garaha-ppattaa) from all (sabbehi) householders. With [my] husband dead means: a widow. Now she says this taking the three forms she obtained in her own previous existences.* Having become one of such a kind, resorting to a good friend who had been attained by chance, she acquired the undying, she attained quenching. *This presumably indicates one life as "a female dog or female jackal"; one life as "a tiger, leopard, or cat"; and one life as a widow. verse: 222. "Bhaavito me maggo, ariyo a.t.tha"ngiko amatagaamii; nibbaana.m sacchikata.m, dhammaadaasa.m avekkhi.mha.m. 222. I have developed the noble eightfold path leading to the undying. I have realized quenching. I have looked in the mirror of the Doctrine. CY: Idaani tameva amataadhigama.m paaka.ta.m katvaa dassetu.m "bhaavito"ti-aadi vutta.m. Tattha bhaavitoti vibhaavito uppaadito va.d.dhito bhaavanaabhisamayavasena pa.tividdho. Dhammaadaasa.m avekkhi.mhanti dhammamaya.m aadaasa.m addakkhi.m apassi.m aha.m. 222. And now, having made that attainment of the undying plain, to show it, she spoke [the verse] beginning I have developed. There, I have developed (bhaavito) means: I established (vibhaavito), I produced, I practised, I realized through comprehension and mental development (bhaavanaabhisamaya-vasena). I have looked in the mirror of the Doctrine (dhammaadaasa.m) means: I saw, I looked in a mirror (aadaasa.m) made of the Doctrine (dhamma-maya.m). ---to be continued, lisa's daughter. #74537 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Jul 22, 2007 6:41 am Subject: Re: Sammaadi.t.thi study corner scottduncan2 Dear All, 64. "Saying, 'Good, friend,' the bhikkhus delighted and rejoiced in the venerable Saariputta's words. Then they asked him a further question: 'But, friend, might there be another way in which a noble disciple is one of right view...and has arrived at this true Dhamma?' - 'There might be, friends. Saadhaavusoti kho te bhikkhuu aayasmato saariputtassa bhaasita.m abhinanditvaa anumoditvaa aayasmanta.m saariputta.m uttari.m pa~nha.m aapucchu.m: " siyaa panaavuso a~n~nopi pariyaayo yathaa ariyasaavako sammaadi.t.thi hoti ujugataassa di.t.thi, dhamme aveccappasaadena samannaagato' aagato ima.m saddhammanti?" 65. "When, friends, a noble disciple understands ignorance, the origin of ignorance, the cessation of ignorance, and the way leading to the cessation of ignorance, in that way he is one of right view...and has arrived at this true Dhamma Siyaa aavuso. Yato kho aavuso ariyasaavako avijja~nca pajaanaati, avijjaasamudaya~nca pajaanaati, avijjaanirodha~nca pajaanaati, avijjaanirodhagaamini.m pa.tipada~nca pajaanaati, ettaavataapi kho aavuso ariyasaavako sammaadi.t.thi hoti. Ujugataassa di.t.thi. Dhamme aveccappasaadena samannaagato aagato ima.m saddhammanti. 66. "And what is ignorance, what is the origin of ignorance, what is the cessation of ignorance, what is the way leading to the cessation of ignorance? Not knowing about suffering, not knowing about the origin of suffering, not knowing about the cessation of suffering, not knowing about the way leading to the cessation of suffering - this is called ignorance. With the arising of the taints there is the arising of ignorance. With the cessation of the taints, there is the cessation of ignorance. The way leading to the cessation of ignorance is just this Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view...right concentration. Katamaa panaavuso avijjaa? Katamo avijjaasamudayo? Katamo avijjaanirodho? Katamaa avijjaanirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaati? Ya.m kho aavuso dukkhe a~n~naa.na.m, dukkhasamudaye a~n~naa.na.m, dukkhanirodhe a~n~naa.na.m, dukkhanirodhagaaminiyaa pa.tipadaaya a~n~naa.na.m - aya.m vuccataavuso avijjaa. Aasavasamudayaa avijjaasamudayo. Aasavanirodhaa avijjaanirodho. Ayameva ariyo a.t.tha"ngiko maggo avijjaa nirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa seyyathiida.m: sammaadi.t.thi sammaasa"nkappo, sammaavaacaa, sammaakammanto sammaaaajiivo sammaavaayaamo, sammaasati, sammaasamaadhi. 67. "When a noble disciple has thus understood igorance, the origin of ignorance, the cessation of ignorance, and the way leading to the cessation of ignorance...he here and now makes an end of suffering. In that way too a noble disciple is one of right view...and has arrived at this true Dhamma." Yato kho aavuso ariyasaavako eva.m avijja.m pajaanaati, eva.m avijjaasamudaya.m pajaanaati, eva.m avijjaanirodha.m pajaanaati, eva.m avijjaanirodhagaamini.m pa.tipada.m pajaanaati, so sabbaso raagaanusaya.m pahaaya pa.tighaanusaya.m pa.tivinodetvaa asmiiti di.t.thimaanaanusaya.m samuuhanitvaa avijja.m pahaaya vijja.m uppaadetvaa di.t.theva dhamme dukkhassantakaro hoti. Ettaavataapi kho aavuso ariyasaavako sammaadi.t.thi hoti. Ujugataassa di.t.thi. Dhamme aveccappasaadena samannaagato aagato ima.m saddhammanti. Sincerely, Scott. #74538 From: "Larry" Date: Sun Jul 22, 2007 7:27 am Subject: Re: What is the wrong view? (References from the MN anthology) lbidd2 Hi Jon, Jon: "Larry, when you say that faith does not always arise with panna (insight), I think you're not referring to the mental factor of saddha but rather to a more convnetional idea of 'faith' -- would that be right? "To my understanding, the mental factor of saddha arises with all moments of kusala consciousness." Larry: The faith mental factor arises with every kusala citta but not the wisdom mental factor. Hence, faith does not always arise with panna. Larry #74539 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jul 22, 2007 8:43 am Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge indriyabala Dear Scott (and Sarah), - I am happy to know that you are interested in the discussion. Thank you very much for explaining the English grammar that is clearly relevant to the discussion at hand. Scott: We can use both the present perfect simple and the present perfect continuous to speak about situations that started in the past and are still continuing and also about situations that have just finished and affect the present. The difference between the two tenses in both these situations is one of focus. Another difference is that we use the present perfect continuous to speak about more temporary situations and actions, and the present perfect simple to speak about more permanent situations and actions. T: So far so good, Scott. ................ Scott: Vineyya is a gerund, as you point out Tep. Would that make the translation of 'vineyya loke abhijjhaa-domanassa"m', which was rendered, 'having put away covetousness and grief regarding the world' in the Dispeller of Delusion, 'putting away covetousness and grief regarding the world'? How do you see the meaning of the text changing (if at all) as a result? Would this refer to the timing of things somehow? I've no time left to look at this further, but will, out of interest. Thanks. T: The meaning of the text in this situation is related to when "covetousness and grief" is put away. Case 1. 'Having put away covetousness and grief regarding the world' means (to me) covetousness and grief have been put away before one begins to practice the four foundations of mindfulness. However, covetousness and grief may reappear during the practice (temporariness). Case 2. 'Putting away covetousness and grief regarding the world' indicates what is going on in the present moment concurrently with the practice of the four foundations of mindfulness. I am learning along with you too. So please corect me anytime. Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > > Dear Tep and Sarah, > > I'm just trying to learn about this with you. Here are some definitions: > #74540 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jul 22, 2007 8:56 am Subject: Re: What is the wrong view? (References from the MN anthology) indriyabala Hi Jon, - I am sorry to hear about your severe shoulder pains and sympathize with you, since I am having a similar problem myself (although it is minor for now). You are lucky to be able to recover after the treatment. I have learned that tendon inflamations are difficult to treat (especially in people older than 60), so we have to be very careful/mindful every time we start to lift something heavy (or play tennis?). Tep === #74541 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Jul 22, 2007 9:53 am Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge scottduncan2 Dear Tep, Thanks for your reply. I enjoy this very sort of discussion. T: The meaning of the text in this situation is related to when "covetousness and grief" is put away. Case 1. 'Having put away covetousness and grief regarding the world' means (to me) covetousness and grief have been put away before one begins to practice the four foundations of mindfulness. However, covetousness and grief may reappear during the practice temporariness). Case 2. 'Putting away covetousness and grief regarding the world' indicates what is going on in the present moment concurrently with the practice of the four foundations of mindfulness." Scott: This would be how I see it too. If Case 2 reflects a better translation, considering the use of the gerund (and of which I know virtually nothing and so am merely speculating), then the quote: "'vineyya loke abhijjhaa-domanassa"m' ('having put away covetousness and grief regarding the world') in order to point out the factors to be abandoned. Herein, 'vineyya' ("having put away") [means] having put away by means of putting away through substitution of opposite qualities, and by means of putting away through suppression." Scott: ...would suggest that the sati and pa~n~na of satipa.t.thaana are the 'opposite qualities' and serve to suppress 'covetousness and grief regarding the world'. Does this make sense? Is this what is being said, do you think? Sincerely, Scott. #74542 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jul 22, 2007 10:11 am Subject: Re: What is the wrong view? (References from the MN anthology) indriyabala Hi Jon, - Jon: Do you have any quotes from the texts (e.g., Patisampaddha Maggga) on wrong path? I'd be interested to see them. Tep: Most of them are about the right path. Can we not derive the wrong path as the opposite of the right one? I think I understand why you think differently than Larry -- it is not easy to draw a sharp line dividing right from wrong at the time we are not yet on the right side. Micchaa-magga is fully explained in the Visuddhimagga : XXII 14; XXII 50; I 140; V 41; XIV 159, 164; XVII, 9, 243; XXII, 45, 50, 56, 58, 66. Here I have seen one passage from the Patisambhidamaggga book that might be useful to you. 342. At the moment of the stream-entry path (sotaapatti-magga): Right view in the sense of seeing (a) emerges from wrong view, and it emerges from defilements and from aggregates that occur consequent upon them, and (b) externally it emerges from all signs; hence it was said: 'Knowledge of the path is understanding of emergence and turning away from both'. Right thought in the sense of directing onto (a) emerges from wrong thought ... Right speaking in the sense of embracing (a) emerges ... Right acting in the sense of originating (a) emerges ... Right living inthe sense of cleansing (a) emerges ... Right effort in the sense of exerting (a) emerges ... Right mindfulness in the sense of establishing (a) emerges ... Right concentration in the sense of non-distracting (a) emerges from wrong concentration and it emerges from defilements and from aggregates that occur consequent upon them, and (b) externally it emerges from all signs; hence it was said: 'Knowledge of the path is understanding of emergence and turning away from both'. [Patisambhidamagga, Treatise I, 342. Page 69] .............. Tep === #74543 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jul 22, 2007 11:05 am Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge indriyabala Hi Scott (Sarah, Phil), - Scott: Thanks for your reply. I enjoy this very sort of discussion. Tep: I do too. There are things, very deep, about Satipatthana that should be reflected upon often. Thank you for allowing me the opportunity. .................... Scott: If Case 2 reflects a better translation, considering the use of the gerund (and of which I know virtually nothing and so am merely speculating), then the quote: "'vineyya loke abhijjhaa-domanassa"m' ('having put away covetousness and grief regarding the world') in order to point out the factors to be abandoned. Herein, 'vineyya' ("having put away") [means] having put away by means of putting away through substitution of opposite qualities, and by means of putting away through suppression." Scott: ...would suggest that the sati and pa~n~na of satipa.t.thaana are the 'opposite qualities' and serve to suppress 'covetousness and grief regarding the world'. Does this make sense? Is this what is being said, do you think? .................... Tep: I completely agree with you that "the sati and pa~n~na of satipa.t.thaana are the 'opposite qualities' and serve to suppress 'covetousness and grief regarding the world' " that can (and will) reappear during the satipatthana practice. But I think that is not all that was said by the Greatest Sage -- the Buddha. I used to believe that Case 2 was the better translation, until I found SN 10.61 not very long ago. Since then I have been reflecting on this sutta a lot. "Now, I tell you, clear knowing & release have their nutriment. They are not without nutriment. And what is their nutriment? The seven factors for awakening... And what is the nutriment for the seven factors for awakening? The four frames of reference... And what is the nutriment for the four frames of reference? The three forms of right conduct... And what is the nutriment for the three forms of right conduct? Restraint of the senses... And what is the nutriment for restraint of the senses? Mindfulness & alertness... And what is the nutriment for mindfulness & alertness? Appropriate attention... And what is the nutriment for appropriate attention? Conviction... And what is the nutriment for conviction? Hearing the true Dhamma... And what is the nutriment for hearing the true Dhamma? Associating with people who are truly good... "Just as when the gods pour rain in heavy drops & crash thunder on the upper mountains: The water, flowing down along the slopes, fills the mountain clefts & rifts & gullies... the little ponds... the big lakes... the little rivers... the big rivers. When the big rivers are full, they fill the great ocean, and thus is the great ocean fed, thus is it filled. In the same way, when associating with truly good people is brought to fulfillment, it fulfills [the conditions for] hearing the true Dhamma... conviction... appropriate attention... mindfulness & alertness... restraint of the senses... the three forms of right conduct... the four frames of reference... the seven factors for awakening. When the seven factors for awakening are brought to fulfillment, they fulfill [the conditions for] clear knowing & release. Thus is clear knowing & release fed, thus is it brought to fulfillment." — AN 10.61 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/stream.html#Heading3 T: If my understanding is correct, SN 10.61 states that good listening to a noble disciple causes saddha to arise as the nutriment for yoniso-manasikara, such that one will have sati-sampajanna to restrain his/her sense faculties, in order to avoid the three bad conducts and to fulfill the three good conducts. The three good conducts then become the nutriment for (the four modes of) satipatthana to be fully developed. So it seems that both Case 1 and Case 2 are correct, depending on the "level" of the Dhamma practice. But definitelly satipatthana cannot, and will not, be successful without the three good conducts as its nutriment. What do you think? Tep === #74544 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Jul 22, 2007 4:01 pm Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge kenhowardau Hi Tep, Scott and all, Don't let me interrupt your very interesting discussion. I just want to comment on the second sutta that Tep has quoted. Like all suttas, it is a veritable lion's roar: "Now, I tell you, clear knowing & release have their nutriment. They are not without nutriment. And what is their nutriment? The seven factors for awakening... And what is the nutriment for the seven factors for awakening? The four frames of reference... And what is the nutriment for the four frames of reference? The three forms of right conduct... And what is the nutriment for the three forms of right conduct? Restraint of the senses... And what is the nutriment for restraint of the senses? Mindfulness & alertness... And what is the nutriment for mindfulness & alertness? Appropriate attention... And what is the nutriment for appropriate attention? Conviction... And what is the nutriment for conviction? Hearing the true Dhamma... And what is the nutriment for hearing the true Dhamma? Associating with people who are truly good..." (end quote) To some it might seem the exact opposite of a lion's roar. The practice of sitting down to listen to a wise companion - possibly a frail, elderly person dressed as a beggar - is hardly reminiscent of the following description from Ven. Bodhi: "Among the hordes of animals that roam the wild, whether the jungle, the mountains or the plain, the lion is universally recognized to be their chief. The living embodiment of self-possessed power, he is the most regal in manner and deportment, the mightiest, the foremost with respect to speed, courage and dominion. The expression of the lion's supremacy is its roar — a roar which reduces to silence the cries, howls, bellows, shrieks, barks and growls of lesser creatures. When the lion steps forth from his den and sounds his roar, all the other animals stop and listen. On such an occasion none dares even to sound its own cry, let alone to come into the open and challenge the fearless, unsurpassable roar of the golden-maned king of beasts." (end quote) The answer, of course, lies in understanding conditionality. The knowledge, "There are only dhammas!" brings everything else to a halt. At a moment of right understanding, nothing is heard from even the greatest of conventional things. This particular sutta does not use the simile of the lion's roar. Instead, "association with people who are truly good" is likened to, "when the gods pour rain in heavy drops and crash thunder on the upper mountains." It is the same thing. All other (conventional) realities are nullified, or stultified, by the roar of the storm. And that is what we experience whenever we understand (at whatever level we are capable) "there are only dhammas." Ken H > >"Just as when the gods pour rain in heavy drops & crash thunder on the upper mountains: The water, flowing down along the slopes, fills the mountain clefts & rifts & gullies... the little ponds... the big lakes... the little rivers... the big rivers. When the big rivers are full, they fill the great ocean, and thus is the great ocean fed, thus is it filled. In the same way, when associating with truly good people is brought to fulfillment, it fulfills [the conditions for] hearing the true Dhamma... conviction... appropriate attention... mindfulness & alertness... restraint of the senses... the three forms of right conduct... the four frames of reference... the seven factors for awakening. When the seven factors for awakening are brought to fulfillment, they fulfill [the conditions for] clear knowing & release. Thus is clear knowing & release fed, thus is it brought to fulfillment." — AN 10.61 > #74545 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jul 22, 2007 2:36 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: satipatthana as island of refuge upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and Tep, Scott, and all) - Good post, Ken! I really like the sutta quote and your comments. :-) I especially liked your referring to the wise companion as "possibly a frail, elderly person dressed as a beggar." This reminds me so much of the magical figure of Elijah the Prophet in Jewish folk tales so descriptive of the workings of kamma in the world and of the hidden and mysterious nature of reality. Yes, the lion's roar of certain wisdom can sometimes come as a still, small voice uttering simple truth that overturns the mind. That truth can be spoken in many ways, and which way sets one mind topsy-turvy may differ from which overturns another. May every one of us hear the truth as a "turning word" for that mind! With metta, Howard In a message dated 7/22/07 7:03:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowa@... writes: > Hi Tep, Scott and all, > > Don't let me interrupt your very interesting discussion. I just want > to comment on the second sutta that Tep has quoted. Like all suttas, > it is a veritable lion's roar: > > "Now, I tell you, clear knowing &release have their nutriment. They > are not without nutriment. And what is their nutriment? The seven > factors for awakening... And what is the nutriment for the seven > factors for awakening? The four frames of reference... And what is > the nutriment for the four frames of reference? The three forms of > right conduct... And what is the nutriment for the three forms of > right conduct? Restraint of the senses... And what is the nutriment > for restraint of the senses? Mindfulness &alertness... And what is > the nutriment for mindfulness &alertness? Appropriate attention... > And what is the nutriment for appropriate attention? Conviction... > And what is the nutriment for conviction? Hearing the true Dhamma... > And what is the nutriment for hearing the true Dhamma? Associating > with people who are truly good..." (end quote) > > To some it might seem the exact opposite of a lion's roar. The > practice of sitting down to listen to a wise companion - possibly a > frail, elderly person dressed as a beggar - is hardly reminiscent of > the following description from Ven. Bodhi: > > "Among the hordes of animals that roam the wild, whether the jungle, > the mountains or the plain, the lion is universally recognized to be > their chief. The living embodiment of self-possessed power, he is the > most regal in manner and deportment, the mightiest, the foremost with > respect to speed, courage and dominion. The expression of the lion's > supremacy is its roar — a roar which reduces to silence the cries, > howls, bellows, shrieks, barks and growls of lesser creatures. When > the lion steps forth from his den and sounds his roar, all the other > animals stop and listen. On such an occasion none dares even to sound > its own cry, let alone to come into the open and challenge the > fearless, unsurpassable roar of the golden-maned king of beasts." > (end quote) > > The answer, of course, lies in understanding conditionality. The > knowledge, "There are only dhammas!" brings everything else to a > halt. At a moment of right understanding, nothing is heard from even > the greatest of conventional things. > > This particular sutta does not use the simile of the lion's roar. > Instead, "association with people who are truly good" is likened > to, "when the gods pour rain in heavy drops and crash thunder on the > upper mountains." > > It is the same thing. All other (conventional) realities are > nullified, or stultified, by the roar of the storm. And that is what > we experience whenever we understand (at whatever level we are > capable) "there are only dhammas." > > Ken H > > > > >"Just as when the gods pour rain in heavy drops &crash thunder on > the upper mountains: The water, flowing down along the slopes, fills > the mountain clefts &rifts &gullies... the little ponds... the big > lakes... the little rivers... the big rivers. When the big rivers are > full, they fill the great ocean, and thus is the great ocean fed, > thus is it filled. In the same way, when associating with truly good > people is brought to fulfillment, it fulfills [the conditions for] > hearing the true Dhamma... conviction... appropriate attention... > mindfulness &alertness... restraint of the senses... the three forms > of right conduct... the four frames of reference... the seven factors > for awakening. When the seven factors for awakening are brought to > fulfillment, they fulfill [the conditions for] clear knowing & > release. Thus is clear knowing &release fed, thus is it brought to > fulfillment." > > — AN 10.61 > > > #74546 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Jul 22, 2007 6:41 pm Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge scottduncan2 Dear Tep, Thanks for your kind reply: Tep: ...There are things, very deep, about Satipatthana that should be reflected upon often. Thank you for allowing me the opportunity." Scott: Very true. Its good. Tep: "I completely agree with you that "the sati and pa~n~na of satipa.t.thaana are the 'opposite qualities' and serve to suppress 'covetousness and grief regarding the world' " that can (and will) reappear during the satipatthana practice. But I think that is not all that was said by the Greatest Sage -- the Buddha. I used to believe that Case 2 was the better translation, until I found AN 10.61 not very long ago. Since then I have been reflecting on this sutta a lot." "Now, I tell you, clear knowing & release have their nutriment. They are not without nutriment. And what is their nutriment? The seven factors for awakening... And what is the nutriment for the seven factors for awakening? The four frames of reference... And what is the nutriment for the four frames of reference? The three forms of right conduct... And what is the nutriment for the three forms of right conduct? Restraint of the senses... And what is the nutriment for restraint of the senses? Mindfulness & alertness... And what is the nutriment for mindfulness & alertness? Appropriate attention... And what is the nutriment for appropriate attention? Conviction... And what is the nutriment for conviction? Hearing the true Dhamma... And what is the nutriment for hearing the true Dhamma? Associating with people who are truly good... Vijjaavimuttimpaha.m bhikkhave saahaara.m vadaami, no anaahaara.m, ko caahaaro vijjaavimuttiyaa: sattabojjha"ngaatissa vacaniiya.m. Sattapaha.m bhikkhave bojjha"nge saahaare vadaami, no anaahaare ko caahaaro sattanna.m bojjha"ngaana.m: cattaaro satipa.t.thaanaatissa vacaniiya.m. Cattaaropaha.m bhikkhave satipa.t.thaane saahaare vadaami, no anaahaare. Ko caahaaro catunna.m satipa.t.thaanaana.m: tii.ni sucaritaanii'tissa vacaniiya.m. Tii.nipaha.m bhikkhave sucaritaani saahaaraani vadaami, no anaahaaraani, ko caahaaro ti.n.nanna.m sucaritaana.m: indriyasa.mvarotissa vacaniiya.m. Indriyasa.mvarampaha.m bhikkhave saahaara.m vadaami no anaahaara.m. Ko caahaaro indriyasa.mvarassa: satisampaja~n~nantissa vacaniiya.m. Satisampaja~n~nampaha.m bhikkhave saahaara.m vadaami. No anaahaara.m. Ko caahaaro satisampaja~n~nassa: yonisomanasikaarotissa vacaniiya.m. Yonisomanasikaarampaha.m bhikkhave saahaara.m vadaami, no anaahaara.m. Ko caahaaro yoniso manasikaarassa: saddhaatissa vacaniiya.m: saddhampaha.m bhikkhave saahaara.m vadaami, no anaahaara.m. Ko caahaaro saddhaaya: saddhammasavanantissa vacaniiya.m. Saddhammasavanampaha.m bhikkhave saahaara.m vadaami, no anaahaara.m. Ko caahaaro saddhammasavanassa: sappurisasa.msevotissa vacaniiya.m. Iti kho bhikkhave sappurisasa.msevo paripuuro saddhammasavana.m paripuureti saddhammasavana.m paripuura.m, saddha.m paripuureti, saddhaa paripuuraa yonisomanasikaara.m paripuureti, yonisomanasikaaro paripuuro satisampaja~n~na.m paripuureti, satisampaja~n~na.m paripuura.m indriyasa.mvara.m paripuureti, indriyasa.mvaro paripuuro, tii.ni sucaritaani paripuureti tii.ni sucaritaani paripuuraani, cattaaro satipa.t.thaane paripuurenti, cattaaro satipa.t.thaanaa paripuuraa satta bojjha"nge paripuurenti, satta bojjha"ngaa paripuuraa vijjaavimutti.m paripuurenti. Evametissaa vijjaavimuttiyaa aahaaro hoti. Eva~nca paripuuri. "Just as when the gods pour rain in heavy drops & crash thunder on the upper mountains: The water, flowing down along the slopes, fills the mountain clefts & rifts & gullies... the little ponds... the big lakes... the little rivers... the big rivers. When the big rivers are full, they fill the great ocean, and thus is the great ocean fed, thus is it filled. In the same way, when associating with truly good people is brought to fulfillment, it fulfills [the conditions for] hearing the true Dhamma... conviction... appropriate attention... mindfulness & alertness... restraint of the senses... the three forms of right conduct... the four frames of reference... the seven factors for awakening. When the seven factors for awakening are brought to fulfillment, they fulfill [the conditions for] clear knowing & release. Thus is clear knowing & release fed, thus is it brought to fulfillment." Seyyathaapi bhikkhave upari pabbate phullaphusitake deve vassante deve galagalaayante ta.m udaka.m yathaaninna.m pavattamaana.m pabbatakandarapadarasaakhaa paripuureti, pabbatakandarapadarasaakha paripuuraa kussubbhe paripuurenti, kussubbhaa paripuuraa mahaasobhe paripuurenti, mahaasobbhaa paripuuraa kunnadiyo paripuurenti, kunnadiyo paripuuraa mahaanadiyo paripuurenti, mahaanadiyo paripuuraa mahaasamudda,m saagara.m paripuurenti. Evametassa mahaasamuddassa saagarassa aahaaro hoti, eva~nca paaripuuri. AN 10.61 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/stream.html#Heading3 Scott: Here we see all the familiar dhammas: satipa.t.thaanaa, satisampaja~n~na, yonisomanasikaara. Very good sutta, I like it. Rather exciting to read the Pali and see all those well-known phrases. Paripuuri is 'fulfilment' or 'completion', which I don't quite understand in its context. T: If my understanding is correct, AN 10.61 states that good listening to a noble disciple causes saddha to arise as the nutriment for yoniso-manasikara, such that one will have sati-sampajanna to restrain his/her sense faculties, in order to avoid the three bad conducts and to fulfill the three good conducts. The three good conducts then become the nutriment for (the four modes of) satipatthana to be fully developed. So it seems that both Case 1 and Case 2 are correct, depending on the "level" of the Dhamma practice. But definitelly satipatthana cannot, and will not, be successful without the three good conducts as its nutriment. What do you think?" Scott: I'm not sure what 'the three bad conducts' are - I'll look for a reference. I'm not totally clear on all this yet, but 'practice' is the development of these mental factors. The sutta seems to describe a progression of mental development and, yes, satipa.t.thaana seems to depend on the presence of these other factors as nutriment condition. The timing of things does not seem to be described from the momentary point of view, however. Maybe you can elaborate on this sutta... As for the Itivutaka quote: "Appropriate attention as a quality of a monk in training: nothing else does so much for attaining the superlative goal. A monk, striving appropriately, attains the ending of stress." Yoniso manasikaaro ~ dhammo sekhassa bhikkhuno, Nattha~n~no eva.m bahukaaro ~ uttamatthassa pattiyaa, Yoniso padaha.m bhikkhu ~ khaya.m dukkhassa paapu.ne"-ti. Hope you don't mind the Pali, I like to look it over and maybe others like to check it out too... Sorry for the length of the post. Sincerely, Scott. #74547 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Jul 22, 2007 6:50 pm Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge scottduncan2 Dear Tep, P.S. Sorry, my guess is that the three bad conducts are the three unwholesome roots. Correct me, since I'm likely wrong... S. #74548 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jul 22, 2007 8:18 pm Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge indriyabala Hi Scott (& KenH, Howard, etc.) - --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Dear Tep, > > P.S. > > Sorry, my guess is that the three bad conducts are the three > unwholesome roots. Correct me, since I'm likely wrong... > > S. > I was about to reply to your other post, when I saw this short one. So I am going to take care of it first. The three bad conducts are opposite to the "three good conducts" which were defined by the Buddha in one of my favorite suttas -- the Kundliya Sutta[SN 46.6]. "Here, Kundaliya, having abandoned bodily misconduct, a bhikkhu develops good bodily conduct; having abandoned verbal misconduct, he develops good verbal conduct, having abandoned mental misconduct, he develops good mental conduct. It is in this way that the three kinds of good conduct are developed and cultivated so that they fulfil the four establishments of mindfulness.". [Translator: Bhikkhu Bodhi] Tep === #74549 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jul 22, 2007 8:40 pm Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge indriyabala Hi KenH (Scott, Howard and others), - KenH: Don't let me interrupt your very interesting discussion. Tep: Thank you for the kind word. But that is not an interuption at all. KenH: The knowledge, "There are only dhammas!" brings everything else to a halt. At a moment of right understanding, nothing is heard from even the greatest of conventional things. T: You are absolutely right about the special knowledge which comes with that "moment of understanding". I think what Scott and I are discussing should help us attain such a wonderful moment one day. KenH: This particular sutta does not use the simile of the lion's roar. Instead, "association with people who are truly good" is likened to, "when the gods pour rain in heavy drops and crash thunder on the upper mountains." It is the same thing. All other (conventional) realities are nullified, or stultified, by the roar of the storm. Tep : I like Howard's answer very much and so I am quoting it here: >Howard (#74545): Yes, the lion's roar of certain wisdom can sometimes come as a still, small voice uttering simple truth that overturns the mind. That truth can be spoken in many ways, and which way sets one mind topsy-turvy may differ from which overturns another. May every one of us hear the truth as a "turning word" for that mind! Tep === #74550 From: han tun Date: Sun Jul 22, 2007 8:40 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Response to E-card from Bangkok 3 (1) - Vipallaasas hantun1 Dear Sarah, In Vipassanaa Dipani, Ledi Sayadaw described the three vipallaasas with three similes. (1) Sa~n~naa-vipallaasa is like a wild deer which takes a ‘straw-man’ for a real man and runs away. (2) Citta-vipallaasa is like a magician who makes lumps of earth to appear as lumps of gold and silver in the eyes of the audience. (3) Ditthi-vipallaasa is like a man who has lost his way in the forest. Under the influence of ditthi-vipallaasa he takes the wrong road for the right road, and takes the town or village and the buildings created by the evil demons as the delightful mansions as those of devas and celestial beings. Here, the right road connotes the mundane right view and supramundane right view. ------------------- - Looking at the three vipallaasas, I thought the example of a box of biscuits resembles the simile of sa~n~naa-vipallaasa. The straw-man is made of straw but the wild deer thinks it is a real man. Even so, the box of biscuits is made of pathavi element and other elements, but a person wrongly takes it as a box of biscuits. Furthermore, the wild deer must have seen a man before, so it runs away when it takes a straw-man as a real man. Even so, the person must have seen the box of biscuits before. If he has not seen it before, he may not know that it is a box of biscuits. Thus, the simile of the wild deer fits in nicely with the example of a box of biscuits. - Therefore, I thought the examples of inanimate objects given at the Foundation meeting are the case of sa~n~naa-vipallaasa rather than attavaadupaadaana. But I was not sure. That’s why I was trying to get your personal opinion on this aspect at the meeting at the Foundation on 4 July. - But then, I have noted that you have already given your opinion that attavaadupaadana falls under ditthi-vipallaasa, the taking of what is anatta for atta. - Therefore, I think what I thought was wrong and we can close the case. Respectfully, Han --- sarah abbott wrote: > > - What I talked to you just before the meeting on > 4 > > July was to get your 'personal' opinion on whether > or > > not the references to inanimate objects are the > case > > of vipallaasas rather than attavaadupaadana. I was > > just seeking your personal opinion. > .... > S: It's a good point to raise. We were a bit rushed > before the meeting and > I may have misjudged your intention for which I > apologise. > Attavaadupaadana falls under di.t.thi-vipallaasa, > the taking of what is > anatta for atta. Again, I would see this as > including namas or rupas, > internal or external. Do you have any more > reflections on this detail? > ... #74551 From: han tun Date: Sun Jul 22, 2007 8:49 pm Subject: Response to E-card from Bangkok 3 (3) hantun1 Dear Sarah, Phil and Nina, Sarah: - Reflection every day on the 5 factors Phil & Han like to quote (old age, sickness, death, parting, own kamma). The usefulness is that it's all not self. Why is there then a distinction between others and self? Without absolute reality, can there be any idea of this? Can there be any understanding of the 1st NT if there's no understanding of the arising and falling away? For all, 5 khandhas. Not 'I' who abstains. -------------------- Han: This has reference to AN 5.57 Abhi.nha-paccavekkhi-tabbatthaana Sutta. I think Phil had already responded to the points concerning him. My concern is with the third part of the sutta. -------------------- Quote: [“Now, O monks, the noble disciple contemplates thus: ‘I am not the only one who is sure to become old, to fall ill and to die. But wherever beings come and go, pass away and re-arise, they all are subject to old age, illness and death.’ In one who often contemplates these facts, the path arises (tassa tam tthaanam abhi.nham paccavekkhato maggo sa~njaayati). He now regularly pursues, develops and cultivates that path, and while he is doing so the fetters are abandoned and the underlying tendencies eliminated.”] End Quote. (translation by Bhikkhu Bodhi, and the Pali words inserted by me taken from the Pali text of the sutta) -------------------- - I was wondering how such simple contemplations could result in the arising of the path (maggo sa~njaayati). It seems so easy. A Burmese Sayadaw also said that such contemplations can lead to samvega ~naana, which in turn can facilitate the arising of vipassanaa ~naanas, but there must be vipassanaa ~naanas before magga ~naanas. - Ajahn Sujin asked me who is ‘I’ and who are ‘they’? Due to my hearing defect, I could not hear properly the rest of what Ajahn Sujin said. But, Sarah kindly whispered to me that Ajahn Sujin meant to say that in absolute reality there is no ‘I’ and there are no ‘they’, or in other words there is no self or atta. There are only five aggregates that are subject to old age, illness and death, and I must understand the arising and falling away of these five aggregates. Without Sarah’s help I would not be able to make out the explanation by Ajahn Sujin, and I am grateful to Sarah for that. - Later, back at home, I read again the sutta and I found the following Note by Bhikkhu Bodhi. “It is significant that the Buddha ascribes to these seemingly elementary contemplations the power to engender the supramundane path. It seems that to acquire such potency the themes of contemplation must be expanded universally so that they disclose the all-pervasive nature of old age, illness and death.” - Combining Bhikkhu Bodhi’s Note with the explanations by Ajahn Sujin and Sarah, I think I now understand better the third part of the sutta. As Sarah said, it is the understanding of the all-pervasive and universal nature of the First Noble Truth, without the involvement of ‘I’ or ‘they’, that would lead to the path. My sincere thanks to all. Respectfully, Han P.S. I hope my computer will be usable again next week. I thank Phil and Sarah for their very useful feed-backs to my Response to E-card from Bangkok 3 (2). #74552 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jul 22, 2007 9:01 pm Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge indriyabala Hi Scott (and others), - Scott: Here we see all the familiar dhammas: satipa.t.thaanaa, satisampaja~n~na, yonisomanasikaara. Very good sutta, I like it. Rather exciting to read the Pali and see all those well-known phrases. Paripuuri is 'fulfilment' or 'completion', which I don't quite understand in its context. T: I am glad that you find "all those well-known phrases" in Pali "exciting", because I have the same feeling too. For me a huge advantage of keeping the familiar Pali phrases in mind is that we don't have to guess what the translators mean, when they are not consistent (sometimes). Scott: The sutta seems to describe a progression of mental development and, yes, satipa.t.thaana seems to depend on the presence of these other factors as nutriment condition. The timing of things does not seem to be described from the momentary point of view, however. Scott: Maybe you can elaborate on this sutta... T: I am glad that you see the progression of mental development (bhavana) through satipatthana. That's a good point. But how do you want me to elaborate on the sutta (AN 10.61)? Please help me get started by asking a few specific questions. Scott: Hope you don't mind the Pali, I like to look it over and maybe others like to check it out too... Sorry for the length of the post. T: You have given me gold, Scott. Please do it again. Tep === #74553 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Jul 22, 2007 10:31 pm Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge kenhowardau Hi Howard, Tep and all, Thanks for your replies. --------- <. . .> Tep: > I like Howard's answer very much and so I am quoting it here: Howard (#74545): Yes, the lion's roar of certain wisdom can sometimes come as a still, small voice uttering simple truth that overturns the mind. That truth can be spoken in many ways, and which way sets one mind topsy-turvy may differ from which overturns another. May every one of us hear the truth as a "turning word" for that mind! --------- I hope I am not trivialising too much, but I wonder if I could ask you - and anyone else who would like to join in - what is the quote that, for you, best sums up the Dhamma? Howard, I suppose yours would be the Diamond Sutra quote that you sign off with. I found mine in Walpola Rahula's 'What the buddha Taught' at page 66 where he writes: "Here naturally a question arises: If there is no Atman or Self, who gets the results of karma (actions)? No one can answer this better than the Buddha himself. When this question was raised by a bhikkhu the Buddha said: 'I have taught you, O bhikkhus, to see conditionality everywhere in all things.'" Ken H #74554 From: "colette" Date: Sun Jul 22, 2007 9:43 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Yogacara only, to cross Ts and dot Is ksheri3 Hi Larry, Good to be back discussing normal things. I can't realy reply properly to this at the moment but I am sure that it deals with "things" found in the Trimsika of Vashubandhu. Lightly let me cognize so that we are both cognizing the same "thing": You establish the contention that both you and I do not exist which therefore makes it impossible for either of us to make a mistake. I believe I see where it is you are and what it is you are saying but, I need to do some specific research here since I am certain that you are speaking in terms of Shunyata as your rationale for establishing the non-existance of the here & now. I'm very deep into a meditation and it's very consuming so it's not easy for me to be taking my concentration away from the path I'm on to debate our disagreements of terms. That's all it is, fundamentally nothing greater than a simple disagreement of terminology. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@... wrote: > > Hi Colette, > > C: "You clearly made the cognition that YOU DO NOT MAKE MISTAKES and > that ONLY OTHERS MAKE MISTAKES." > > L: I thought I said there is no me and no you and therefore no my > mistake and no your mistake in the yogacara view. > > Larry > #74555 From: "Phil" Date: Sun Jul 22, 2007 11:21 pm Subject: Re: Response to E-card from Bangkok 3 (3) philofillet Hi Han and all > - Ajahn Sujin asked me who is `I?Eand who are `they?E > Due to my hearing defect, I could not hear properly > the rest of what Ajahn Sujin said. But, Sarah kindly > whispered to me that Ajahn Sujin meant to say that in > absolute reality there is no `I?Eand there are no > `they?E or in other words there is no self or atta. > There are only five aggregates that are subject to old > age, illness and death, and I must understand the > arising and falling away of these five aggregates. > Without Sarah's help I would not be able to make out > the explanation by Ajahn Sujin, and I am grateful to > Sarah for that. Yes, I suppose it could be helpful to think about the ultimate realities at work, but when I do this contemplation, I most defintely think about me (Phil) she (Naomi) and they (other people.) I challenge anyone here to reflect on "I am of the nature to get old, get sick and die" and *not* think about people. It's simply not possible unless one wants to do some mental gymnastics, and there will be just as much clinging to self involved in those gymnastics (trying to think of people in paramattha terms for the purpose of insight) as there is in thinking about people as people. I think the purpose of this sutta is to condition samvega, recollection that we are the owners of our kamma. The purpose is very conventional, and extraordinarily helfpul. The translators are not inept - the sutta say what it says for a purpose. If later commentators say the discourse, which the Buddha said "all kinds of people" should reflect on *often*, is all about paramattha dhammas (I don't know if they do) the later commentators risk depriving people of a very beneficial teaching. Metta, Phil #74556 From: "colette" Date: Sun Jul 22, 2007 10:18 pm Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge ksheri3 "Do you want to be the singer. Do you want to be the song. Let me tell you something. You just couldn't be more wrong" Emerson Lake and Palmer Good Evening Scott, Tep, and I guess Sarah, Interesting topic. I've been finding references to different types of refuge lately and Scott's reply concerning the objectivity of grammar may be correct but in it's correctness it takes away the mystical power, the magik, since it reduces EVERYTHING to mere minutia and the trivial condition of existance. Also in my study lately I'm finding references to the manifestation of the terminology of Svabhava. It's getting quite illuminating. > ................ > > > How do you see the meaning of the text changing (if at all) as a > result? Would this refer to the timing of things somehow? I've no > time left to look at this further, but will, out of interest. Thanks. > > T: The meaning of the text in this situation is related to > when "covetousness and grief" is put away. > Case 1. 'Having put away covetousness and grief regarding the world' > means (to me) covetousness and grief have been put away before one > begins to practice the four foundations of mindfulness. However, > covetousness and grief may reappear during the practice > (temporariness). > Case 2. 'Putting away covetousness and grief regarding the world' > indicates what is going on in the present moment concurrently with > the practice of the four foundations of mindfulness. > colette: IN PRINCIPAL, I agree with Scott. Don't get me wrong since I know that a lot of things simply CANNOT GET DONE if they are done in the wrong order. For instance, you really can't have a first floor if you do not have a foundation as there certainly can't be a penthouse or second floor if there is no first floor. But these things I use, or we use, to cognize the rationale of the doctrine are nothing more than our hallucinations that have been manifested and our mind's have just been "CONDITIONED" to rationalize them as they've always been rationalized. ... What I achieved in the past is now so much more fuller in it's vintage and so much more satisfying to my tastes. The order is a worthless landmark of a hallucination. I know that I cerainly notice the many monks that read my posts here, there, almost everywhere, and I can almost see them laughing with me as they rejoice because I have the ability to see what it is they have been studying as well. Just because I have some rough spots does not reduce my workings to nothing greater than the rantings of an insane, worthless, pauper that doesn't even have the ability to pay the bills that society has accepted as being the Standard upon which a sentient beings takes pride in the CASTE that a few mindless misers advocate as the only way to keep their bank accounts secure from an uprising. Sorry if I got off target, although I believe I used some very schrewed realities as the models for interpreting the doctrines. I hope your confusion, suffering, has been relieved just a bit. toodles, colette #74557 From: "colette" Date: Sun Jul 22, 2007 10:38 pm Subject: The Church Lady is among us ksheri3 Hi Howard, tha above reference to The Church Lady is from an old SNL script which is very applicable here & now. Connie, did Howard slight us? Did Howard use discrimination in a negative way since he may've deprived us of a meditational link/outlet? ... Howard, SAY WHAT YOU GOTTA SAY! No other person can do it for you. Release those thoughts you've been storing up and keeping from the rest of the group. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Robert - > > In a message dated 7/17/07 11:04:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > rjkjp1@... writes: > > > I think > > that > > >non-judgemental mudita with respect to other people's approaches > > to > > >Dhamma is a somewhat atrophied dhamma for students of AS. . > > > > > > Mudita is non-judgmental. it should celebrate others' happiness, > > whether > > >misguided or not - > > +++++++++ > > Dear Phil > > Like these psots today > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/74445 > > or http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/74449 > > If there is wrongview it is time for compassion - helping if > > possible- not mudita. > > > ============================ > I'm not sure whether you were writing this straightforwardly or > sarcastically. I'm afriad itmay be the latter. > I do not know whether you have come across the person whom I was > writing about, but I believe that if you did, you would issue a far stronger > warning to Buddhist friends than I did. It happens that I DID think more than twice > about whether I should respond negatively about him to Connie and Colette, my > inclination being not to do that in general, but I concluded that at a time > some folks were looking for a "place" to discuss Buddihst meditation, I had > better say something by way of warning. The teachings provided by that person, a > man of inflated ego, IMO, are not Dhamma, but they are presented as such and > along with the claim that the "teacher" is a stream entrant. I believe I would > have been remiss had I suggested even approval by my silence. > > With metta, > Howard #74558 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Jul 23, 2007 12:59 am Subject: Re: Response to E-card from Bangkok 3 (3) kenhowardau Hi Phil (and Han), --------------- <. . .> Ph: > Yes, I suppose it could be helpful to think about the ultimate realities at work, but when I do this contemplation, I most definitely think about me (Phil) she (Naomi) and they (other people.) ---------------- I am not being pedantic when I say there is no self - no control - over this contemplation, regardless of whether it is done rightly or wrongly. (Regardless of whether it is done with or without the idea of a lasting self.) There are only conditioned dhammas. ------------------------- Ph: > I challenge anyone here to reflect on "I am of the nature to get old, get sick and die" and *not* think about people. ------------------------- Why would I want to do that? 'Wanting to do that' is not Dhamma practice. Dhamma practice is the right understanding of conditioned dhammas. Right understanding happens or doesn't happen - depending on conditions - now, in less than the blink of an eye. There is no control over it. ----------------------------------- Ph: > It's simply not possible unless one wants to do some mental gymnastics, ----------------------------------- Or one could simply understand the words of the Buddha where he explained that "person" (etc) was just a conventional designation. In reality there are only dhammas. What is so hard about that? (At the intellectual level of understanding, that is.) ----------------------------------------- Ph: > and there will be just as much clinging to self involved in those gymnastics (trying to think of people in paramattha terms for the purpose of insight) as there is in thinking about people as people. ------------------------------------------ That's right. It's not about trying, it's about conditioned dhammas. --------------------- Ph: > I think the purpose of this sutta is to condition samvega, recollection that we are the owners of our kamma. --------------------- Fair enough, but there is no "we" who is the owner of kamma - or of anything. Let's be mindful of anatta every step of the way. ----------------------------- Ph: > The purpose is very conventional, and extraordinarily helpful. ----------------------------- Hmm, 'conventional' and 'helpful' in the same sentence . . . I'd have to think about that. :-) ------------------------------------- Ph: > The translators are not inept - the sutta say what it says for a purpose. If later commentators say the discourse, which the Buddha said "all kinds of people" should reflect on *often*, is all about paramattha dhammas (I don't know if they do) the later commentators risk depriving people of a very beneficial teaching. -------------------------------------- Do you find comfort - or extraordinary wisdom - in contemplating the death of people? I don't. Ken H #74559 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 23, 2007 1:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Response to E-card from Bangkok 3 (1) - Vipallaasas nilovg Dear Han, Just back after a week, I did not follow the whole thread, but perhaps I can add something. No need to answer if your computer does not work. --------- Op 23-jul-2007, om 5:40 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > But then, I have noted that you have already given > your opinion that attavaadupaadana falls under > ditthi-vipallaasa, the taking of what is anatta for > atta. ------------- N: sakkaayadi.t.thi is included in attavaadupaadana, but the latter is broader. I think it all started with the question: can one take things outside oneself for self. But now about your reactions to Kh Sujin's method of answering. I know how you feel, because Lodewijk reacts in the same way. He had some questions in Keng Kracan and said: she did not answer my questions. He does not like counter questions. Lodewijk also has hearing trouble and does not hear properly what she says. I tried to explain later on. I have been listening again to the tapes in K.K. and now I hear them differently, get much more out of them. Kh Sujin asks questions to lead people to considering for themselves the present moment. She takes you gently by your hand to know reality now, instead of thinking all the time of terms. She always says: it has to be your own understanding. Investigate, check, consider. ------- H: > The first explanation by Ajahn Sujin was a > counter-question. When I said sakkaaya-ditthi is the > wrong view of considering the five aggregates as atta, > Ajahn Sujin, pointing at a cup on the table, asked me > whether the hardness or softness of the cup was > different from the hardness or softness of my body. > Like the last time, when a box of biscuits was cited, > I did not understand how the comparison with the cup > fitted in with the discussion on the difference > between attavaadupaadaana and sakkaya-ditthi. --------- N: Touch, without thinking, a table or a cup, and touch your body. See for yourself whether hardness is experienced and whether it is true that hardness is hardness, just that characteristic. No cup, no body. If you understand just that you are well on your way to understand what paramattha dhammas are. Do not think of any terms or names. It seems that a cup was already there all the time, but in fact what is touched is hardness, and what is seen is visible object. We do not realize that what we take for a cup are rupas that are impermanent, dukkha, anattaa. Seeing this will help us to understand what attavaadupaadaana is, but we need not think of any term. I was glad to read again Sukin's post on pariyatti and I will read it to Lodewijk for the third time: -------- Sukin: Then I read Jon: ------ Jon: Think of it quite simply as nothing more than this: unless the Dhamma that is unique to a Buddha has been heard and understood, there cannot be any development of that path. We have to have heard, pondered over and understood the teaching on dhammas, conditionality, no-self, etc in order for there to be any direct experience of same. So it's not really a matter of an 'intellectul stage', rather a matter of getting a start.> N: These words are so encouraging. Getting a start on the Path. We expect definitions and ask questions and then Kh Sujin gives an answer we did not expect. We should try to get the fine points. No worry about vipallasas or any term. Follow what she says: pointing to the present monment, always. As Ken and also Howard says: there is only the present moment. Lodewijk said: I can never understand this, but that is not the right attitude. Kh Sujin said that we should be grateful and contented for the little amount of understanding there is now. If you just get the point of her first question about hardness, that is a great help. Nina. #74560 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 23, 2007 1:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Response to E-card from Bangkok 3 (3) nilovg Dear Han, > ---------- > H: Ajahn Sujin meant to say that in > absolute reality there is no ‘I’ and there are no > ‘they’, or in other words there is no self or atta. ------- N: Some people, like Lodewijk may stumble over this. Remember, no Nina, no Lodewijk. This is correct, so long as we remember that the khandhas of this individual and of that individual are different. Different 'people' have accumulated different inclinations and react differently. 'I' and 'they' are five khandhas, are anattaa, but it is not so that there is no difference between 'I' and 'they'. Lodewijk, like Howard, finds that care has to be taken of the way we formulate things. All of 'I' and "they" are conditioned elements. We can remember what Ken quoted: Nina. Op 23-jul-2007, om 5:49 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > Ajahn Sujin asked me who is ‘I’ and who are ‘they’? > Due to my hearing defect, I could not hear properly > the rest of what Ajahn Sujin said. But, Sarah kindly > whispered to me that Ajahn Sujin meant to say that in > absolute reality there is no ‘I’ and there are no > ‘they’, or in other words there is no self or atta. > There are only five aggregates that are subject to old > age, illness and death, and I must understand the > arising and falling away of these five aggregates. #74561 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Jul 23, 2007 3:05 am Subject: Re: Response to E-card from Bangkok 3 (3) philofillet Hi Ken > > Why would I want to do that? 'Wanting to do that' is not Dhamma > practice. Dhamma practice is the right understanding of conditioned > dhammas. Right understanding happens or doesn't happen - depending on > conditions - now, in less than the blink of an eye. There is no > control over it. Ken, it has to be appreciated that the Buddha taught to different people for different purposes. I would have thought that was a basic principle of Dhamma. This idea that *all* suttas are about understanding of present dhammas is just plain incorrect. I know you won't believe that, because you are right into AS, and that's fine - it doesn't do you any harm, and there is no danger of many people believing that the purpose of every sutta is to understand present dhammas. I know you have little respect for Bhikkhu Bodhi's understanding, and there is no reason in particular that he should understand any better than AS just because he's the big translation guy, but here is this from his introduction to the AN sutta anthology: "The Samyutta Nkaya, being governed by a thematic principle, serves as the respository for many short but pithy suttas disclosing the Buddha's radical insights into the nature of reality and his unique path to spiritual emanciplation. This collection would have served the needs of two types of specialists within the monastic order: first, those monks and nuns who were capable of grasping the deepest dimensions of Buddhist wisdom and who were charged with clairifying for others the subtle perspectives opened up by the Buddha's teaching; and second, those who had already fulfilled the preliminary stages of meditative training and were intent on consummating their efforts with the direct realization of the ultimate truth." Ph: You want suttas dealing with paramattha dhammas? Go to SN. Very deep, very deep, is the Dhamma of SN. Samyutta 35 on the ayatanas, Samyutta 22 on the khandas - these suttas are tres paramattha, and there is no need to do mental gymnastics, or lobha- driven stretching of the panna muscle in order to get at the paramattha. BB continues: ""With the move from the Samyutta NIkaya to the Anguttara, a shift in emphasis takes place from comprehension to *personal edification* Because the short suttas that articulate the philisophical theory and the main stuectures of training ahve found their way into the Samyutta, what has been left for inclusion in the Anguttara are the short suttas whose primary concern is practical." When I was a student of AS, I used to disparage AN. I forget why, probably they weren't parammatha enough for me. But at least I never forced paramattha into them. (Many of them do have paramattha aspects.) Now I appreciate their conventional themes and stirring messages. As understanding develops, these suttas will reveal themselves to be deeper than I thought, but I really doubt I'll ever believe, as AN told Han, that we are meant to reflect that "it is the aggregates that get old, get sick and die!" That's ...ahem...not a helpful teaching. > ----------------------------------- > Ph: > It's simply not > possible unless one wants to do some mental gymnastics, > ----------------------------------- > > Or one could simply understand the words of the Buddha where he > explained that "person" (etc) was just a conventional designation. In > reality there are only dhammas. What is so hard about that? (At the > intellectual level of understanding, that is.) Right, I also reflect on this. I know there is no person in ultimate terms. We'll get to understanding that, or not, but starting off with a practice based on understanding this is absurd. For the umpteenth time, putting the cart before the horse, we start where we are, not where we want to be etc etc. > > ----------------------------------------- > Ph: > and there > will be just as much clinging to self involved in those gymnastics > (trying to think of people in paramattha terms for the purpose of > insight) as there is in thinking about people as people. > ------------------------------------------ > > That's right. It's not about trying, it's about conditioned dhammas. I tried to understand dhammas in a way for which there are not conditions. Forcing matters, being impatient about the development of wisdom. It was very comforting to feel that I had access to the Buddha's deepest teachings just by reading Nina's books! That was me, not you. > --------------------- > Ph: > I think the purpose of this sutta is to condition samvega, > recollection that we are the owners of our kamma. > --------------------- >> ----------------------------- > Ph: > The purpose is > very conventional, and extraordinarily helpful. > ----------------------------- > > Hmm, 'conventional' and 'helpful' in the same sentence . . . I'd have > to think about that. :-) People living in the world with cluttered minds with grimy windows. We don't have insight, we have to start where we are, working on the gross defilments. This is conventional, this is helpful. If I stop ogling passing women out of concern about what kind of person and how uncomfortable she would feel that is still stopping the accumulation of very toxic kilesa. Check out AN III 100 in which the goldsmith first gets rid of the grit and rough sand, and then the medium, and then the very fine. I often think of an empty lot filled with rusty old refrigerators and rotten cardboard boxes full of smutty magazines. If you want to cultivate the land, the crap has to get lugged out.It's not a sublte job, you just do it. > >> > Do you find comfort - or extraordinary wisdom - in contemplating the > death of people? I don't. Althought the Buddha recommended that you do it often? Wake up, Ken! And remember what woke the Buddha up to the need for liberation, that chariot ride that awoke his zeal. You can take that chariot ride every morning if you reflect on that sutta. The point is that the comfort, or the encouragement comes in reflecting that while we are going to get old, get sick and die, and be torn away from all that we love, we can take action, here and now, to be wise owners of kamma. I also love the sutta in AN in which the Buddha instructs monks that one shouldn't wish for another day to practice his teaching, and we shouldn't hope for another hour, but we should hope for another breath within which to practice. Really gets us back to the present moment. I thank Antony for turning me on to that one. There is opportunity for wise action with every breath. Thanks Ken, I enjoy our exchanges though I doubt we'll ever agree. Two days left to go before we leave, and posts to write to RK, Sukin and Connie so I'll drop it here. Metta, Phil #74562 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Jul 23, 2007 4:05 am Subject: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) jonoabb Hi TG --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@... wrote: > > Hi Jon > > Sorry this reply was so long in coming. Never mind. This reply has been even longer in coming! > It almost got "shelved." I appreciate the time and effort taken to respond to my previous post. > NEW TG; In the Satipatthana, BB's translation, The "insight review" (we'll > use the "mind-objects" review since I'm on that page) section talk about -- > "contemplating" mind-objects as mind-objects internally, or he abides > contemplating mind-objects as mind-objects externally, or he abides contemplating > mind-object as mind-object both internally and externally. Or he abides > contemplating in mind-objects their arising factors, or he abides contemplating in > mind-objects their vanishing factors, or he abides contemplating in > mind-objects both their arising and vanishing factors." > > First of all... the term "contemplating" means "thinking deeply about," > "reflecting upon," "meditate," "consider deliberately," "to view with continued > attention." > > Some of those definitions are acceptable as "direct experience" and others > are dealing with analysis. I think the balance is great! > > Regarding the quote above, most 'notes' I've seen regard the "external" to > be experiences "outside" of ones own experience. (I also would not understand > how else "external mind-objects" could be taken.) Given that, it means a > meditator would need to be using inference and analysis to be considering those > events...unless one had supernormal meditative powers and could see it > directly. > > Regarding the same quote, arising and vanishing "factors" to me means not > just bare awareness, but analyzing the causes and conditions that caused those > mind-objects to arise and the causes and conditions that caused those > mind-objects to vanish. Without the term "factors," this conclusion might not be as > credible. Also, being the "review" ends by talking about just "bare > knowledge and mindfulness" indicate that the "factors" is more than JUST bare > knowledge and mindfulness of the "presence" of mind-objects. I'm not sure I follow all the reasons you give here for coming to the conclusion you do. However, I get the general point: that the language used by the Buddha in the suttas seems to suggest something wider than direct knowledge of presently arising dhammas; he talks about 'contemplating' and about things outside the scope of one's direct personal experience. There are many others who would agree with you on this. The suttas often use conventional language rather than specifically 'Dhamma' language. However, it would be a mistake to take such passages at face value without further inquiry given (a) other suttas where the language of paramattha dhammas is employed, and (b) the commentaries and abhidhamma that explain how the suttas are to be read. From these sources it can be seen that the Buddha's message concerns direct understanding of presently arising dhammas/elements, rather than the 'contemplation' of 'things' in the conventional sense, which in terms of dhammas is thinking about things rather than any kind of direct experience (no matter how 'correctly' one is thinking). > If the arising factors and vanishing factors are known, then I believe the > principles of conditionality are known as well. If the "external" > mind-objects are understood, it is in principles of such activities that are understood > IMO....unless, in the latter case, "supernormal direct knowledge" is the > issue and I don't think it is. To my understanding, the reference to external mind objects is to the mind-objects that are inferred, and it is again presently arising dhammas that are directly experienced. > Other aspects such as the Nine Charnel grounds, the bodily parts and > postures, seem all to require analysis on "their own." The insight review comments > would apply to all stages of the Satipatthana. Again, that would be one possible reading taking the words of the sutta at face value. But I think for reasons already given that that should not be the approach. > The Satipatthana is just one Sutta dealing with insight development. > Others, such as the one I most recently posted would deal with the matter of > principles even more easily I think. In fact, I semi recently posted a Sutta for > Howard in which the actual term "principles" was used!!! > > This was a complex way to answer your question but its the only way I know. Again, I appreciate the effort taken. Jon #74563 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon Jul 23, 2007 5:13 am Subject: Re: Response to E-card from Bangkok 3 (3) rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: >> I challenge anyone here to reflect on "I am of the nature to get > old, get sick and die" and *not* think about people. It's simply not > possible unless one wants to do some mental gymnastics, and there > will be just as much clinging to self involved in those gymnastics > (trying to think of people in paramattha terms for the purpose of > insight) as there is in thinking about people as people. > I think the purpose of this sutta is to condition samvega, > recollection that we are the owners of our kamma. The purpose is > very conventional, and extraordinarily helfpul. The translators are > not inept - the sutta say what it says for a purpose. ______ Dear Phil from Visuddhimagga; (Mindfulness of death): "since this object[death] is stated with individual essences and since it awakens a sense of urgency the jhana does not reach absortion" VIII40 and the preceeding paragraph "life., person pleasure, pain - just these alone join in one conscious moment that flicks by" VIII39 robert #74564 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Mon Jul 23, 2007 5:53 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (63) nichiconn Dear Friends, 10. Ekaadasakanipaato 1. Kisaagotamiitheriigaathaava.n.nanaa part 12 verse: 223. "Ahamamhi kantasallaa, ohitabhaaraa kata~nhi kara.niiya.m; kisaagotamii therii, vimuttacittaa ima.m bha.nii"ti. 223. I have my dart cut out, my burden laid down. I have done that which was to be done. Therii Kisaa-Gotamii, with mind completely released, has said this. CY: Ahamamhi kantasallaati ariyamaggena samucchinnagaaraadisallaa aha.m amhi. Ohitabhaaraati oropitakaamakhandhakilesaabhisa"nkhaarabhaaraa. Kata~nhi kara.niiyanti pari~n~naadibheda.m so.lasavidhampi kicca.m kata.m pariyosita.m. Suvimuttacittaa ima.m bha.niiti sabbaso vimuttacittaa kisaagotamii therii imamattha.m "kalyaa.namittataa"ti-aadinaa gaathaabandhavasena abha.niiti attaana.m para.m viya therii vadati. Pruitt: 223. I have my dart cut out (kanta-sallaa) means: I have cut out the dart of passion, etc, (samucchinna-raagaadi-sallaa) by means of the noble path. I have done that which was to be done means: I have finished the sixteenfold [task] consisting of full understanding, etc,* which was to be done. *This presumably refers to the four functions (full understanding, abandoning, realizing, developing) exercised by each of the four path knowledges (see Vism 689 [PPf XXII, 6]). {Path of Purity, p.825: There is this illustration showing the mode of procedure of adaptation and adoption in various objects, though they are proceeding by one adverting in one process (viithi): -- As a man, desiring to jump across a big ditch and stand on the further bank, runs with speed and, seizing a hanging rope or pole tied to a tree-branch on the near bank of the ditch, jumps up, and with body inclined, sloped, bent towards the further bank reaches the top of the further bank, and releasing that (rope or pole) alights swaying on the further bank, and slowly rights himself, so this meditator, desiring to stand in nibbaana which is the further bank of existence, place of birth, destiny, duration, abode, runs with the speed of the reviewing of rise and fall etc., and by means of the adverting of adaptation seizes, as impermanent or ill or not-self, the hanging rope of matter, or the stick of one or other of the aggregates of mind which is tied to the branch of the tree of individuality, and without releasing it, jumps up by the first adaptive consciousness, and by means of the second (adaptation) has his mind inclined, sloped, bent towards nibbaana, as the body (of the man in the simile) is inclined, sloped, bent towards the further bank; and with the third (adaptation) is now near the goal of nibbaana, as the other man reaches the top of the further bank; and by the cessation of that (third) consciousness he releases the complexes as object, and by means of adoptive consciousness falls onto nibbaana without complexes, the further bank. Still, as the (causal relation of) practice {or repetition, or pursuit (aasevanaa)} is not obtained in the one object (nibbaana) he, like the swaying man, is not yet well-established. Afterwards he is established by means of the Path-knowledge.} ===tbc, connie #74565 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Jul 23, 2007 5:59 am Subject: Re: Response to E-card from Bangkok 3 (3) philofillet Hi Robert > >> I challenge anyone here to reflect on "I am of the nature to get > > old, get sick and die" and *not* think about people. It's simply not > > possible unless one wants to do some mental gymnastics, and there > > will be just as much clinging to self involved in those gymnastics > > (trying to think of people in paramattha terms for the purpose of > > insight) as there is in thinking about people as people. > > I think the purpose of this sutta is to condition samvega, > > recollection that we are the owners of our kamma. The purpose is > > very conventional, and extraordinarily helfpul. The translators are > > not inept - the sutta say what it says for a purpose. > ______ > Dear Phil > from Visuddhimagga; > (Mindfulness of death): "since this object[death] is stated with > individual essences and since it awakens a sense of urgency the jhana > does not reach absortion" VIII40 > > and the preceeding paragraph "life., person pleasure, pain - just > these alone join in one conscious moment that flicks by" VIII39 OK, but does this really stand up to these lines? : "There are five facts, O monks, which outght to be often contemplated upon by everyone - whether man or waowm, householder or one gone forth as a monk. What five? 'I am sure to become old; I cannot avoid ageing.' 'I am sure to become ill; I cannot avoid illness.' 'I am sure to die; I cannot avoid death.' 'I must be separated from all that is dear and beloved to me.' I maintain that it is impossible to reflect on this without thinking about concepts (people), and within the framework of a human lifetime, and I don't think the above reference to Vism. changes that. How on earth can "all that is dear and beloved to me" be a citta that falls away in a moment. "How on earth can "grow sick, grow old and die" be about a dhamma? I can't imagine there is a commentary anywhere on this sutta that says that "all that is dear and beloved to me" is referring to a paramattha dhamma. I'm sure I must be missing out on something because I really don't get why AS students are so insistent on this "every sutta is about understanding present realities" line. It's interesting, mind you, and will continue to give me a chance to consider another perspective on Dhamma, radically different from the mainstream. (BB etc...) As we know from art and music, film and literature, the mainstream usually doesn't represent the deepest quality, so I will keep listening. But the above Vism quote doesn't justify a paramattha reading of the sutta in question. Any directly related commentaries that do? If there is a commmentary that says that one is not to reflect on "I am sure to grow old, grow sick, and die" in the way that one would assume from reading the English translation, I will be surprised. Anway, when the Buddha took his chariot ride, was he spurred to the path by reflecting on dhammas? No, he saw an old man, a sick man, and a corpse, and he reflected on an old man, a sick man, and a corpse. Insight into dhammas came later surely as fruit of his practice? (Or am I supposed to see the Buddha as only a collection of dhammas, and disregard the inspirational narrative?) Just frothing at the mouth, Robert. Metta, Phil #74566 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 23, 2007 6:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Response to E-card from Bangkok 3 (3) nilovg Hi Phil, Someone who is ill can be reminded straightaway of the impermanence of the rupas of the body, such as hardness now that does not stay, or feeling now that does not stay. That is the message of the sutta. Anyone, also without the Buddha's help, could just think of sickness, nothing special. But the Buddha has a specific message: do not forget the reality now that is impermanent. Life, pleasure pain, all in a moment that flicks by. What is impermanent and can be directly experienced now is much more convincing then many beautiful thoughts about impermanence. We read about conventional truth but this serves as a reminder to be aware now. It brings us to the present moment. Nina. Op 23-jul-2007, om 14:59 heeft Phil het volgende geschreven: > There are five facts, O monks, which outght to be often > contemplated upon by everyone - whether man or waowm, householder or > one gone forth as a monk. What five? > 'I am sure to become old; I cannot avoid ageing.' > 'I am sure to become ill; I cannot avoid illness.' > 'I am sure to die; I cannot avoid death.' > 'I must be separated from all that is dear and beloved to me.' #74567 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jul 23, 2007 2:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: satipatthana as island of refuge upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and Tep) - In a message dated 7/23/07 1:32:08 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowa@gmai l.com writes: > Hi Howard, Tep and all, > > Thanks for your replies. > > --------- > <. . .> > Tep: >I like Howard's answer very much and so I am quoting it here: > > Howard (#74545): Yes, the lion's roar of certain wisdom can sometimes > come as a still, small voice uttering simple truth that overturns the > mind. That truth can be spoken in many ways, and which way sets one > mind topsy-turvy may differ from which overturns another. May every > one of us hear the truth as a "turning word" for that mind! > --------- > > I hope I am not trivialising too much, but I wonder if I could ask > you - and anyone else who would like to join in - what is the quote > that, for you, best sums up the Dhamma? Howard, I suppose yours would > be the Diamond Sutra quote that you sign off with. I found mine in > Walpola Rahula's 'What the buddha Taught' at page 66 where he writes: > > "Here naturally a question arises: If there is no Atman or Self, who > gets the results of karma (actions)? No one can answer this better > than the Buddha himself. When this question was raised by a bhikkhu > the Buddha said: 'I have taught you, O bhikkhus, to see > conditionality everywhere in all things.'" > > Ken H > > ========================== There are so many wonderful, moving, and insightful quotes. I'm sorry to say that I can't point to any one that is preeminent for me. None has yet served as a "turning word" for me unfortunately! ;-) Yes, I do like the poeticized Diamond Sutra quotation, similar to several Pali citations, and I very much like the Buddha's statement that urges clinging to nothing as me or mine. Also, I really like the following from the Bahiya Sutta, which may well have multiple levels of meaning: "Herein, Bahiya, you should train yourself thus: 'In the seen will be merely what is seen; in the heard will be merely what is heard; in the sensed will be merely what is sensed; in the cognized will be merely what is cognized.' In this way you should train yourself, Bahiya. "When, Bahiya, for you in the seen is merely what is seen... in the cognized is merely what is cognized, then, Bahiya, you will not be 'with that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'with that,' then, Bahiya, you will not be 'in that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'in that,' then, Bahiya, you will be neither here nor beyond nor in between the two. Just this is the end of suffering." But the bottom line is that there are vast stores of riches within the Buddha's teaching, gems of insight and expression, and so far I am unable to make a choice for a perfect summing up of the Dhamma or, more essentially, for the words that may lead me to freedom. I have confidence, though, that these words are there, awaiting my discovery, probably a rediscovery, at the perfect time and under the perfect conditions that ensure that they have their liberating and enlightening effect. With metta, Howard P.S. I agree with you that the material by Walpola Rahula is excellent. Conditionality lies at the heart of the tilakkhana and at the heart of the Dhamma! /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) #74568 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jul 23, 2007 2:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Church Lady is among us upasaka_howard Hi, Colette (and Connie) - In a message dated 7/23/07 2:45:04 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ksheri3@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > tha above reference to The Church Lady is from an old SNL script > which is very applicable here &now. > > Connie, did Howard slight us? > > Did Howard use discrimination in a negative way since he may've > deprived us of a meditational link/outlet? > > ... > > Howard, SAY WHAT YOU GOTTA SAY! No other person can do it for you. > Release those thoughts you've been storing up and keeping from the > rest of the group. > > toodles, > colette > ======================= I said what I wished to say, neither less nor more, and you, of course, can do what you wish to do. With metta, Howard #74569 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Jul 23, 2007 6:51 am Subject: Re: Response to E-card from Bangkok 3 (3) philofillet Hi again >(Or am I supposed to see the Buddha as only a collection > of dhammas, and disregard the inspirational narrative?) > I take this back. Of course I am to see the Buddha as a bundle of dhammas, in ultimate terms. I'm not becoming a pugi-something or other - whatever those people who believed that people actually exist in ultimate terms were called... Metta, Phil #74570 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Jul 23, 2007 7:01 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Response to E-card from Bangkok 3 (3) philofillet Hi Nina > Someone who is ill can be reminded straightaway of the impermanence > of the rupas of the body, such as hardness now that does not stay, or > feeling now that does not stay. That is the message of the sutta. OK, I see, that is a way of looking at it, yes. But it is taught as an intentional meditation that one does daily. You would called it a wrong view ritual, I'm sure, and so be it. Buddhists throughout the world meditate on it every morning, or three times a day, in this way, and I have begun to do so and it has added a lot of vigour into my practice. > Anyone, also without the Buddha's help, could just think of sickness, > nothing special. Nina, you're missing the important point of the sutta. The reflections on old age, sickness and death, and loss of the beloved lead into the section on being owners of our kamma. That is the point!!!! And that is unique to the Buddha. If it were just a reflection on sickness, old age and death without the section on ownership of kamma, it would just lead to despair. But the Buddha has a specific message: do not forget > the reality now that is impermanent. Do not forget owndership of kamma. Forgetting ownership of kamma is the most important form of wrong view for us busy worldlings to consider - I assume that this is true since it is the form of wrong view that is always mentionned in suttas above all. Life, pleasure pain, all in a > moment that flicks by. What is impermanent and can be directly > experienced now is much more convincing then many beautiful thoughts > about impermanence. I'm not talking about beautiful thoughts about impermanence, Nina. You know, I have a feeling you have never reflected on this sutta in the way it is laid out, because you came to AS before you had a chance to reflect on suttas on your own, so you got into very deep Dhamma right away. That may be to your great benefit, mind you, but if you think I am talking about "beautiful thoughts about impermanence" you've really missed my point. Sorry to be blunt, but I know you don't mind. Thanks always for your support. Metta, Phil #74571 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 23, 2007 7:20 am Subject: Conditions, Ch 8, no 3. nilovg Dear friends, Mindfulness of realities does not often arise, but its arising cannot be controlled by a “self”, it is dependent on the right conditions. Not only right understanding, but also other wholesome qualities such as generosity, síla, mettå and patience have to be developed. They are sobhana cetasikas, beautiful mental factors, which are sankhårakkhandha, the khandha of “formations” [1]. The different factors of which this khandha is composed mutually strengthen and support one another and thus conditions are accumulated for enlightenment. During the process of cittas when enlightenment is attained paññå realizes the true nature of the reality which appears, it realizes one of the three characteristics of that reality, namely impermanence, dukkha or anattå. At that moment the accumulated perfections including paññå are the natural decisive support- condition, pakatúpanissaya paccaya, for the complete abandoning of all clinging to the wrong view of self and then nibbåna can be realized. We read in the “Patthåna” (under Strong Dependence, § 423): The preparation for the first Path [2] is related to the first Path by (natural) strong dependence-condition. The same is said with regard to the second, third and fourth Path. Moreoever, the first Path is related to the second Path by natural strong dependence, and it is the same with the subsequent Paths. This reminds us that lokuttara citta cannot arise without the right conditions. During the process when enlightenment is attained, one of the three characteristics of reality, impermanence, dukkha or anattå, is realized just before lokuttara citta arises. Only one of the three characteristics is realized at that moment since citta can have only one object at a time. However, before the three characteristics of reality can be known as they are, right understanding of all nåmas and rúpas which appear in daily life has to be gradually developed, and moreover, the “perfections” have to be accumulated. The natural decisive support-condition, pakatúpanissaya paccaya, is very wide. Kusala citta can be a natural decisive support-condition for akusala citta. We read in the “Patthåna” ( same section, § 423, II b): Confidence, precept, learning, generosity, wisdom is related to lust, hate, delusion, conceit, wrong views, wish, by (natural) strong dependence-condition. One’s knowledge of the Dhamma may be a natural decisive support- condition for conceit or for wrong view. One may have studied the Dhamma but one may not consider nåma and rúpa appearing in daily life and one may have wrong understanding of the practice of vipassanå. Or someone may have confidence in a teacher who practises in the wrong way and thus he may follow the wrong practice. --------- 1.All cetasikas other than feeling and saññå, remembrance, are included in sankhårakkhandha. 2. The magga-citta of the first stage of enlightenment, the stage of the “streamwinner”, sotåpanna. There are four stages of enlightenment. ****** Nina. #74572 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 23, 2007 7:31 am Subject: Listening to the Dhamma, Ch 6, no 4. nilovg Dear friends, We read in the “Kindred Sayings” (IV, Salåyatana Vagga, Fourth Fifty, Ch 3, 190, The Sap-tree) that the Buddha said to the monks: “If in any monk or nun, monks, that lust, that malice, that ignorance which is in objects cognizable by the eye exists, be not abandoned, then, when even trifling objects, not to speak of considerable objects, cognizable by the eye, come into the range of the eye, they overspread the heart. Why so? Because, monks, that lust, that malice, that ignorance exists, is not yet abandoned. If any monk or nun, monks, that lust... that is in mental objects cognizable by the mind exists, be not abandoned... they overspread the heart. Why so? Because of that lust... that is not yet abandoned. Suppose, monks, a sap-tree, either a bo-tree or a banyan or fig-tree or bunched fig-tree or any tender young tree. Then if a man cuts into it with a sharp axe, whenever he does so the sap flows out, does it not?” “Yes, lord.” “Why so?” “Because sap is in it, lord.” “Just so, monks, if in any monk or nun that lust, that malice, that ignorance which is in objects cognizable by the eye... in the tongue... in mental objects cognizable by the mind exists, be not abandoned, then, when even trifling objects, not to speak of considerable objects, cognizable by the eye come into the range of the eye, they overspread the heart. Why so? Because that lust... is not yet abandoned. But if they be abandoned they do not overspread the heart. Suppose, monks, a sap-tree, either a bo-tree or banyan or fig-tree or bunched fig-tree that is dried up, sapless, past its season, and a man with a sharp axe cut into it. Would sap come out?” “Surely not, lord.” “Why not?” “Because no sap is in it, lord.” “Just so, monks, as I have said... if in any monk or nun that lust, that malice, that ignorance which is in objects cognizable by the eye exist not, if they be abandoned,—then, when even trifling objects, not to speak of considerable objects, come into the range of the eye, they do not overspread the heart. Why so? Because that lust, that malice, that ignorance exist not, because they are abandoned. So also of the tongue and mental objects cognizable by the eye... they do not overspread the heart because they exist not, because they are abandoned.” Learning about the latent tendencies which condition defilements teaches us that defilements are non-self, anattå. Time and again akusala cittas arise, but often we do not notice them. ******* Nina. #74573 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 23, 2007 7:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Response to E-card from Bangkok 3 (3) nilovg Hi Phil, Op 23-jul-2007, om 16:01 heeft Phil het volgende geschreven: > Do not forget owndership of kamma. Forgetting ownership of kamma > is the most important form of wrong view for us busy worldlings to > consider - I assume that this is true since it is the form of wrong > view that is always mentionned in suttas above all. you are right about the ownership of kamma. Also this truth should be rightly considered. About meditating, that is fine. It can happen by conditions to deeply consider this sutta. Here is something in the Visuddhimagga and tiika: Text Vis.171. Now it was also asked, 'Whose is the fruit, since there is no experiencer?' Herein: 'Experiencer' is a convention For mere arising of the fruit; They say 'It fruits' as convention, When on a tree appears its fruit. 172. Just as it is simply owing to the arising of tree fruits, which are one part of the phenomena called a tree, that it is said 'The tree fruits' or 'The tree has fruited', ---------- N: According to the Tiika: When in the continuity of the khandhas kusala cetanaa or akusala cetanaa arises, and it is said that someone performs merit or evil, the doer is a convention (kattuvohaaro). Also when there is the fruition (of kamma), and it is said that someone experiences happiness or sorrow, the experiencer is a convention (upabhu~njakavohaaro). Therefore there is no other experiencer whosoever apart from the khandhas. That is the meaning. -------- Conclusion: It is important to know the difference between what is convention and what is ultimate truth. If one understands that, in the ultimate sense, there are mere dhammas performing good deeds and bad deeds, and mere dhammas that experience the results of these deeds, doubts about how kamma of the past can bear fruit later on, even in a next life, will disappear. ********* Nina. #74574 From: Ken O Date: Mon Jul 23, 2007 11:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: satipatthana as island of refuge ashkenn2k Hi Tep > Case 2. 'Putting away covetousness and grief regarding the world' > indicates what is going on in the present moment concurrently with > the practice of the four foundations of mindfulness. > k: I do not know Pali very well but when sati arise, grief and covetousness does not arise, they are mutually exclusive as one is kusala while the other is akusala. Cheers Ken O #74575 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 23, 2007 11:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: in the seen merely what is seen. nilovg Hi Howard, Op 23-jul-2007, om 15:20 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Also, I really like the following from the > Bahiya Sutta, which may well have multiple levels of meaning: > > "Herein, Bahiya, you should train yourself thus: 'In the seen will > be merely > what is seen; in the heard will be merely what is heard; in the > sensed will be > merely what is sensed; in the cognized will be merely what is > cognized.' In > this way you should train yourself, Bahiya. > "When, Bahiya, for you in the seen is merely what is seen... in the > cognized > is merely what is cognized, then, Bahiya, you will not be 'with > that.' When, > Bahiya, you are not 'with that,' then, Bahiya, you will not be 'in > that.' When, > Bahiya, you are not 'in that,' then, Bahiya, you will be neither > here nor > beyond nor in between the two. Just this is the end of suffering." ----------- First of all what edition of Ahidhammattha Sangaha you use for your study corner? I have that of Narada and also that with co. transl by Wijeratne and Gethin. Not B.B's. Where do you begin, do you take it from beginning to end? -------- You happen to quote a sutta I have been studying in connection with someone I correspond with for a long time. It is the person who wrote a booklet, Just seeing, and a Bhikkhu in charge of BPS asked me to check on Abhidhamma. Here follows what I wrote for those interested in the subject. This is part of a letter I wrote: ----------- < There is also a Bahiyasutta in the Udaana, and I have the Co. translated by Peter Masefield. (PTS). Partly this contains the same as what Ven. Bodhi quoted, but there is much more info. . To have javanacittas that are devoid of lobha, dosa and moha, just as eye-consciousness is. The Co explains about the three pari~n~nas, beginning with ~naata pari~n~na, full comprehension of the known (beginning from the first stage of tender insight: distinguishing the difference between nama and rupa), tiirana pari~n~na, full comprehension of investigating (beginning at the stage of insight that realizes the arising and falling away of dhammas) and finally pahaana pari~n~na, full comprehension of overcoming (beginning at bhanga ~naa.na, knowledge of dissolution, leading to more detachment from nama and rupa). The Co states: (Nina in the letter): In the beginning you mentioned all stages of vipassana but I am missing them later on. That is why I quoted this part of the co. I think it would help the reader to know this part of the Co: < occurring (as they do) in accordance with conditions, being solely and merely dhammas; there is, in this connection, neither a doer nor one who causes things to be done, as a result of which, since (the seen) is impermanent in the sense of being non-existent after having been, dukkha in the sense of being oppressed by way of rise and fall, not-self in the sense of proceeding uncontrolled>. When he reads about 'catching in time as soon as possible', he may forget that there is no doer, that it all arises because of conditions. That there are mere dhammas. > (end quote) *** Nina. #74576 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jul 23, 2007 9:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: in the seen merely what is seen. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 7/23/07 2:34:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > > Op 23-jul-2007, om 15:20 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > >Also, I really like the following from the > >Bahiya Sutta, which may well have multiple levels of meaning: > > > >"Herein, Bahiya, you should train yourself thus: 'In the seen will > >be merely > >what is seen; in the heard will be merely what is heard; in the > >sensed will be > >merely what is sensed; in the cognized will be merely what is > >cognized.' In > >this way you should train yourself, Bahiya. > >"When, Bahiya, for you in the seen is merely what is seen... in the > >cognized > >is merely what is cognized, then, Bahiya, you will not be 'with > >that.' When, > >Bahiya, you are not 'with that,' then, Bahiya, you will not be 'in > >that.' When, > >Bahiya, you are not 'in that,' then, Bahiya, you will be neither > >here nor > >beyond nor in between the two. Just this is the end of suffering." > ----------- > First of all what edition of Ahidhammattha Sangaha you use for your > study corner? I have that of Narada and also that with co. transl by > Wijeratne and Gethin. Not B.B's. Where do you begin, do you take it > from beginning to end? --------------------------------------------- Howard: We're using U Narada's, which is avilable online. (I also own the BB version.) Yes, we're going from beginning to end, but we're going very slowly as my study partner hasn't much experience with Abhidhamma, and anyway, there's no virtue in rushing. ------------------------------------------------- > -------- > You happen to quote a sutta I have been studying in connection with > someone I correspond with for a long time. It is the person who wrote > a booklet, Just seeing, and a Bhikkhu in charge of BPS asked me to > check on Abhidhamma. Here follows what I wrote for those interested > in the subject. This is part of a letter I wrote: > ----------- > translated by Peter Masefield. (PTS). Partly this contains the same > as what Ven. Bodhi quoted, but there is much more info. to the seen.... merely the seen>. To have javanacittas that are > devoid of lobha, dosa and moha, just as eye-consciousness is. --------------------------------------- Howard: Hmm, that's an interesting Abhidhammic perspective. (Doesn't help me much, but I do find it interesting.) ------------------------------------------- > The Co explains about the three pari~n~nas, beginning with ~naata > pari~n~na, full comprehension of the known (beginning from the first > stage of tender insight: distinguishing the difference between nama > and rupa), tiirana pari~n~na, full comprehension of investigating > (beginning at the stage of insight that realizes the arising and > falling away of dhammas) and finally pahaana pari~n~na, full > comprehension of overcoming (beginning at bhanga ~naa.na, knowledge > of dissolution, leading to more detachment from nama and rupa). > > The Co states: sections of the seen and so on (seen, heard, sensed, cognized) the > objective field for vipassanaa divided into its division in terms of > the six objects accompanied by the six classes of consciousness, > given Bahiya’s need for something in brief, indicates to him full > understanding therein as to the known and as to judging [~naata > pari~n~na and tiirana pari~n~na]. How? For, in this connection, the > sightbase is called “the seenâ€? (di.t.tha.m) in the sense that it is > something that is to be beheld, (as is) eye-consciousness, together > with the consciousnesses associated with the doors, therefore, in the > sense of seeing, both of these, occurring (as they do) in accordance > with conditions, being solely and merely dhammas; there is, in this > connection, neither a doer nor one who causes things to be done, as a > result of which, since (the seen) is impermanent in the sense of > being non-existent after having been, dukkha in the sense of being > oppressed by way of rise and fall, not-self in the sense of > proceeding uncontrolled, whence the opportunity for excitement and so > on with respect thereto on the part of one who is wise? For this is > the implication here, as it is also when the heard and so on are > concerned. Next, he starts to indicate, by way of “When for you, > Baahiyaâ€? and so on, full understanding as to abandoning, along with > path-fruition, that subsequently ensues for one established in full > understanding as to the known and full understanding as to judging > [tiirana pari~n`naa].> ----------------------------------------- Howard: For me, the sutta speaks primarily of neither knower nor known substantial entity, but just consciousness and (object-)content of consciousness, mutually dependent. No self lurking behind the knowing and no self lurking beyond the mere known. ---------------------------------------- > > (Nina in the letter): In the beginning you mentioned all stages of > vipassana but I am missing them later on. That is why I quoted this > part of the co. I think it would help the reader to know this part of > the Co: solely and merely dhammas; there is, in this connection, neither a > doer nor one who causes things to be done, as a result of which, > since (the seen) is impermanent in the sense of being non-existent > after having been, dukkha in the sense of being oppressed by way of > rise and fall, not-self in the sense of proceeding uncontrolled>. > > When he reads about 'catching in time as soon as possible', he may > forget that there is no doer, that it all arises because of > conditions. That there are mere dhammas. > > > (end quote) > > *** > > Nina. > > > ====================== With metta, Howard #74577 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Jul 23, 2007 2:01 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: satipatthana as island of refuge indriyabala Hi KenH, - --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > > Hi Tep > > > Case 2. 'Putting away covetousness and grief regarding the world' > > indicates what is going on in the present moment concurrently with > > the practice of the four foundations of mindfulness. > > > > k: I do not know Pali very well but when sati arise, grief and > covetousness does not arise, they are mutually exclusive as one is > kusala while the other is akusala. > > > Cheers > Ken O > T: That is a very good reminder, Ken. Sati and panna of satipatthana is supported by the three good conducts, according to AN 10.61 and Kundliya Sutta. Actually, since fulfilment of satipatthana is conditioned by the three good conducts, only kusala citta arises in that moment. Thus I see no conflict with the Case 2 above. However, you may see it differently. Tep === #74578 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Jul 23, 2007 4:24 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Yogacara only, to cross Ts and dot Is lbidd2 Hi Colette, C: "That's all it is, fundamentally nothing greater than a simple disagreement of terminology." L: Actually, the more I think about it, the more uncertain I am. I will be interested to see what you come up with in your researches. Larry #74579 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Jul 23, 2007 4:29 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XVII,171 Vism.XVII,172 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga), Ch. XVII 171. Now it was also asked, 'Whose is the fruit, since there is no experiencer?' Herein: 'Experiencer' is a convention For mere arising of the fruit; They say 'It fruits' as convention, When on a tree appears its fruit. 172. Just as it is simply owing to the arising of tree fruits, which are one part of the phenomena called a tree, that it is said 'The tree fruits' or 'The tree has fruited', so it is simply owing to the arising of the fruit consisting of the pleasure and pain called experience, which is one part of the aggregates 'deities' and 'human beings', that it is said 'A deity or human being experiences or feels pleasure or pain'. There is therefore no need at all here for a superfluous experiencer. *********************** 171. yampi vutta.m ``upabhu~njake ca asati kassa ta.m phala.m siyaa´´ti, tattha, phalassuppattiyaa eva, siddhaa bhu~njakasammuti. phaluppaadena rukkhassa, yathaa phalati sammuti.. 172. yathaa hi rukkhasa"nkhaataana.m dhammaana.m ekadesabhuutassa rukkhaphalassa uppattiyaa eva rukkho phalatiiti vaa phalitoti vaa vuccati, tathaa devamanussasa"nkhaataana.m khandhaana.m ekadesabhuutassa upabhogasa"nkhaatassa sukhadukkhaphalassa uppaadeneva devo, manusso vaa upabhu~njatiiti vaa, sukhito, dukkhitoti vaa vuccati. tasmaa na ettha a~n~nena upabhu~njakena naama koci attho atthiiti. #74580 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Mon Jul 23, 2007 4:36 pm Subject: Re: Vism.XVII,171 Vism.XVII,172 nichiconn "Path of Purity", Pe Maung Tin trans., p.666: As regards the question: "In the absence of one who enjoys, to whom does the fruit go?" The saying: "he enjoys" comes into use, Because the fructification is made. Even so a tree is said to fructify, Because of the appearance of the fruit. For just as owing to the appearance of the fruit of a tree which is only a part of the things called trees, the tree is said to give fruit or has given fruit, so by the appearance of the fruit of ease and ill, called experience, which is only a part of the aggregates known as the devas and men, a deva or man is said to experience ease or ill. Hence there is no need for any other person who enjoys. #74581 From: TGrand458@... Date: Mon Jul 23, 2007 12:45 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) TGrand458@... Hi Jon In a message dated 7/23/2007 5:09:36 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: I'm not sure I follow all the reasons you give here for coming to the conclusion you do. However, I get the general point: that the language used by the Buddha in the suttas seems to suggest something wider than direct knowledge of presently arising dhammas; he talks about 'contemplating' and about things outside the scope of one's direct personal experience. There are many others who would agree with you on this. The suttas often use conventional language rather than specifically 'Dhamma' language. ........................................ NEW TG: I don't see the separation. First of all, all language is conventional in terms of language. And I don't believe in a "conventional reality" as opposed to a "real reality." What arises -- arises, end of story. .............................................. However, it would be a mistake to take such passages at face value without further inquiry given (a) other suttas where the language of paramattha dhammas is employed, and (b) the commentaries and abhidhamma that explain how the suttas are to be read. .............................................. NEW TG: I can see on some few points how abhidhamma and commentaries can clear up some issues...for example, kasina meditative techniques, and so on, which are not really discussed much in the Suttas. But by far and large, the Suttas are self contained and well able to indicate what they mean to say without looking for outside sources...especially in terms of insight issues! Seems to me the "outside opinions" have in many cases gone well astray as to what the Suttas say. Perhaps they have over interpreted and tried to "see" things that were not spoken of in the Suttas ... (in an attempt to clarify?) I don't buy it. Nor do I buy that seeing the impermanence, affliction, nonself of "things" is in some way less deep. "Things," after all, boils down to the elements and aggregates. That's it! The so called "things" can be seem simultaneously as (or at least in quick secession) as elements and as the objects that are structured by elements. If I'm being mindful at all, I immediately reduce "objects" into elements...and if better mindful, I reduce the elements into altering, afflicting, selfless, conditioned "happenings." Hollow of anything "of themselves" yet dangerous in the ability to produce affliction and destruction in minds that are not utterly free from them. Turning away from the elements by seeing them as afflicting and hollow is the prescription of the Buddha. Not focusing toward them and seeing them as ultimate realities with their own characteristics. I can only give credence to the latter approach as a remedial practice for beginners who are trying to overcome the idea of "person." Other than that, It seems like a bizarre twisting of what the Suttas actually say. I know some of you don't like to think the Suttas actually mean what they actually say. But I believe the Buddha actually did mean what he actually said. The Buddha analyzed and commented on his own teachings extensively in the Suttas and I think he did a pretty good job. ;-) I don't think the Buddha "fuzzed it up" because he didn't clearly say exactly what he wanted to say. But I do think the clearest expression that the Buddha can make has a "fuzzy element" to those minds that want something more tangible to hold onto. By that I mean...if all conditions are dependent and based on something else, there is nothing of "own characteristic" that can be pinned down as an "ultimate reality." The Middle Way excludes both existence or non-existence...or the views of the same. ................................................... From these sources it can be seen that the Buddha's message concerns direct understanding of presently arising dhammas/elements, rather than the 'contemplation' of 'things' in the conventional sense, ..................................................... NEW TG: The Buddha's message concerns "turning away" from all conditions and overcoming suffering by seeing conditions for what they really are. Yes, and the Buddha explains over and over that seeing conditions for what they really are is seeing them as -- impermanent, afflicting, and nonself. He DOES NOT tell us that seeing them as they really are is seeing them as -- ultimate realities with their own characteristics. Not only is there no need for such an "overlay" i.e., "ultimate realities." But that overlay is overkill IMO. ............................................. which in terms of dhammas is thinking about things rather than any kind of direct experience (no matter how 'correctly' one is thinking). > If the arising factors and vanishing factors are known, then I believe the > principles of conditionality are known as well. If the "external" > mind-objects are understood, it is in principles of such activities that are understood > IMO....unless, in the latter case, "supernormal direct knowledge" is the > issue and I don't think it is. To my understanding, the reference to external mind objects is to the mind-objects that are inferred, and it is again presently arising dhammas that are directly experienced. ................................................ NEW TG: The contemplation is present. But what is being contemplated are concepts about external elements, past or future elements. Principles are being contemplated...not just present arisen feeling. Such contemplation applies those principles to present states but not simultaneously. Its a back and forth analysis that deepens the minds ability to KNOW what present experience constitutes. KNOWING what it constitutes, the mind turns away from these afflicting states. ............................................................. > Other aspects such as the Nine Charnel grounds, the bodily parts and > postures, seem all to require analysis on "their own." The insight review comments > would apply to all stages of the Satipatthana. Again, that would be one possible reading taking the words of the sutta at face value. But I think for reasons already given that that should not be the approach. > The Satipatthana is just one Sutta dealing with insight development. > Others, such as the one I most recently posted would deal with the matter of > principles even more easily I think. In fact, I semi recently posted a Sutta for > Howard in which the actual term "principles" was used!!! > > This was a complex way to answer your question but its the only way I know. Again, I appreciate the effort taken. Jon Take care Jon TG OUT #74582 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Jul 23, 2007 6:40 pm Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge scottduncan2 Dear Tep (et al), Thanks for your reply, sorry for the delay (blame Harry Potter and reading out loud to Rebecca - I, of course, have no interest in such stories,just don't tell me how it ends yet): T: "I am glad that you see the progression of mental development (bhavana) through satipatthana. That's a good point. But how do you want me to elaborate on the sutta (AN 10.61)? Please help me get started by asking a few specific questions." Scott: As I noted in my last post, "Paripuuri is 'fulfilment' or 'completion', which I don't quite understand in its context." How do you understand the use of this term, as opposed to, say 'paccayo'? The analogy of the flow of rain water seems to refer to strengthening and increase, which fits better with bhaavanaa. What do you think? T: You have given me gold, Scott. Please do it again. Scott: Very kind words, Tep, thanks. Sincerely, Scott. #74583 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Jul 23, 2007 8:18 pm Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge indriyabala Hello Scott and others - Scott: As I noted in my last post, "Paripuuri is 'fulfilment' or 'completion', which I don't quite understand in its context." How do you understand the use of this term, as opposed to, say 'paccayo'? T: Thank you very much for asking me about meanings of the Pali words rather than the Pali grammar, because my knowledge of the latter is close to zero. Paripuurii, paripuuraa = fulfilment, completion [PTS} Paripuureti [Caus. of paripuurati] to fulfil; to fill (up), make more full, supplement, fill out In order that I may explain how I understand the use of 'paripuuraa' and 'paripuurenti' in AN 10.61, let's look back at the Pali text you kindly gave in the previous post. Let me focus on the passage about the feeding seven bojjhangas and the fed vijja & vimutti as follows. [I do not guarantee that what I understand is correct!] 'Satta bojjha"ngaa paripuuraa vijjaavimutti.m paripuurenti. Evametissaa vijjaavimuttiyaa aahaaro hoti. Eva~nca paripuuri'. "When the seven factors for awakening are brought to fulfillment, they fulfill [the conditions for] clear knowing & release. Thus is clear knowing & release fed, thus is it brought to fulfillment." Here the seven bojjhangas are 'paccayo' -- in the nutriment sense -- for vijja & vimutti to arise. However, when and only when the seven bojjhangas are fully developed (brought to completion, paripuuraa) they become the condition (or potential, like the potential of a magnetic field to induce current flows in a coil. The stronger the field strength, the stronger is the current flow.) for vijja & vimutti to be fully developed -- just like "when the big rivers are full, they fill the great ocean, and thus is the great ocean fed, thus is it filled.." .............. Scott: The analogy of the flow of rain water seems to refer to strengthening and increase, which fits better with bhaavanaa. What do you think? T: Absolutely. Tep === #74584 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Mon Jul 23, 2007 2:22 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] No way not to seek emotional comfort in Dhamma dacostacharles Hi all, I think Ken O is right. I would add that 90% of the time we cannot know what is in the minds of others, so the idea that people can not achieve the "path" levels is ... (like garbage - we should be finished with it). Maybe, the reason people were considered achieving enlightenment during the Buddha's day is because of less distractions and the expectations of the enlightened were not as high as today. Charles DaCosta _____ From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ken O Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2007 14:57 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] No way not to seek emotional comfort in Dhamma Hi Phil and Sukin Understanding is gradual but that does not exclude the possiblity of being a stream entrant in this life as who knows when it would come except for Buddha. It is not what we expect in the future that matters, it is the understanding of the three characteristics of dhamma at the present moment that matters. And that is the gist of all practises be it you practise meditation or abhidhamma. So feel free to choose the path you like to do but remember you are your own refuge and only you would know what is best for yourself :-) but do please note our advises even though is cheap by the dozens, who knows one day, one of it may hit home run. <....> #74585 From: "colette" Date: Mon Jul 23, 2007 4:25 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Church Lady is among us ksheri3 Hi Larry, I know I don't always say what I can and what I want to say but that's only because the political scensorship that works through this forum will not allow anything can disrupt the caste system. <....> toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: <...> > > Howard, SAY WHAT YOU GOTTA SAY! No other person can do it for you. > > Release those thoughts you've been storing up and keeping from the > > rest of the group. > > > > toodles, > > colette > > > ======================= > I said what I wished to say, neither less nor more, and you, of > course, can do what you wish to do. > > With metta, > Howard <...> #74586 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jul 24, 2007 2:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: satipatthana as island of refuge sarahprocter... Hi Tep & Scott, --- Tep Sastri wrote: > > Hi Sarah (and others) - > > >S: (giving more background information) > >Nanamoli E) in Sammohavinodani, revised by L.S. Cousins: > > >"'vineyya loke abhijjhaa-domanassa"m' ('having put away covetousness > and grief regarding the world') in order to point out the factors to > be abandoned. Herein, 'vineyya' ("having put away") [means] having > put away by means of putting away through substitution of opposite > qualities, and by means of putting away through suppression." > > > T: Why is 'vineyya' a past participle? I search the PTS Dictionary > and found that it is a gerund: > "Vineti [vi+neti; cp. vinaya] 1. to remove, put away, give up. -- > ppr. vinayam J vi.499; Pot. 3rd sg. vinayetha Sn 361, & vineyya Sn > 590; imper. vinaya Sn 1098, & vinayassu Sn 559. -- ger. vineyya Sn > 58. ..." .... S: I've been interested to read your further discussions. There seem to be two grammatical uses of vineyyea in this dict entry. When the format using the present perfect continuous is used (as in the above quote), it may just be a common 'device' used in the texts, like in the use of the 4 right efforts, all applying to a single moment. In any case, I think it's clear the meaning doesn't mean putting away covetousness and grief and then developing satipatthana! As discussed, at moments of satipatthana, the hindrances are 'put away' as the quote makes clear. We are travelling with limited internet access and texts for the next 3 wks (in Australia!!), but you may like to take a look at this link: http://www.mahasi.org.mm/discourse/E24/E24ch04.htm I keep losing some pasted in text of interest on 'vineyya' with lost connections etc, but I think it's interesting and relevant. Could you help me by searching in the article for 'vineyya' and then posting the relevant paragraph(s). Actually it all looked interesting, if you want to post any of it in installments for discussion, there was also a part on sukkha vipassakas and jhana etc. Thanks for all your other helpful points and reflections on suttas. I'll send this off before I lose it again!! Metta, Sarah ======== #74587 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 24, 2007 3:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: in the seen merely what is seen. nilovg Hi Howard, Op 23-jul-2007, om 22:43 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > For me, the sutta speaks primarily of neither knower nor known > substantial entity, but just consciousness and (object-)content of > consciousness, > mutually dependent. No self lurking behind the knowing and no self > lurking beyond > the mere known. --------- N: I am concerned that the reader of this sutta may have misunderstandings, that is why I added the Co that deals with all the stages of insight to be developed. Mahasi Sayadaw wrote about this sutta and states: It is not a matter of trying to catch realities or seizing this or that moment as the Sayadaw believes. Bahiya became an arahat. Before one can understand seeing as it is, as non-self, the difference between seeing and thinking about what is seen should be discerned. Visible object should be realized as visible object. It is rupa, not nama. I read TG speaking about turning away and this reminded me of what I heard in Kaeng Kracang, when Kh Sujin asked; , wanting to remind us that there can easily be an idea of self who turns away. This can happen all the time. One may also cling to the idea of wanting to have more sati. I heard on tape: < At the moment of understanding there is sati already. One should not worry about it whether there is sati of satipatthana or not. There can be some understanding of visible object as that which can be seen. Thinking about shape and form is not seeing. Differentiate different cittas, that is the development of understanding that can arise at any time. You will see the anattaness of sati whenever it arises, not by one's intention. One can see the characteristic of intention as just a reality.> Intention or cetanaa arises with each citta, but if we tell ourselves: I intend to be aware, there is so much the idea of self involved. When this idea arises it should be realized as such. Nina. #74588 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Mon Jul 23, 2007 11:01 pm Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (63) nichiconn Dear Friends, 10. Ekaadasakanipaato 1. Kisaagotamiitheriigaathaava.n.nanaa part 13 txt: Tatrida.m imissaa theriyaa apadaana.m (apa. therii 2.3.55-94)- "Padumuttaro naama jino, sabbadhammaana paaraguu; ito satasahassamhi, kappe uppajji naayako. "Tadaaha.m ha.msavatiya.m, jaataa a~n~natare kule; upetvaa ta.m naravara.m, sara.na.m samupaagami.m. "Dhamma~nca tassa assosi.m, catusaccuupasa~nhita.m; madhura.m paramassaada.m, va.t.tasantisukhaavaha.m. "Tadaa ca bhikkhuni.m viiro, luukhaciivaradhaarini.m; thapento etadaggamhi, va.n.nayii purisuttamo. "Janetvaanappaka.m piiti.m, sutvaa bhikkhuniyaa gu.ne; kaara.m katvaana buddhassa, yathaasatti yathaabala.m. PRUITT: These are the Apadaana [verses] of that therii:* One hundred thousand aeons ago, the Conqueror and Leader named Padumuttara, who reached the far shore of all phenomena, was born. At that time I was born in a certain family in Ha.msavatii. I went to that Best of Men and approached him as a refuge. And I heard the Doctrine connected with the four [noble] truths, sweet, of the greatest sweetness, and brining happiness and peace in continuted existence. And the the Hero, the Best of Men, placed a bhikkhunii in the foremost position of those who wear rough robes and praised her. Hearing of the good qualities of that bhikkhunii produced no small amount of joy [in me], and I served the Buddha according to my ability and means. *Ap 564-56, n*22 txt: "Nipacca munivara.m ta.m, ta.m .thaanamabhipatthayi.m; tadaanumodi sambuddho, .thaanalaabhaaya naayako. "Satasahassito kappe, okkaakakulasambhavo; gotamo naama gottena, satthaa loke bhavissati. "Tassa dhammesu daayaadaa, orasaa dhammanimmitaa; kisaagotamii naamena, hessasi satthu saavikaa. "Ta.m sutvaa muditaa hutvaa, yaavajiiva.m tadaa jina.m; mettacittaa paricari.m, paccayehi vinaayaka.m. "Tena kammena sukatena, cetanaapa.nidhiihi ca; jahitvaa maanusa.m deha.m, taavati.msamagacchaha.m. Pruitt: Falling down before the Best of Sages, I aspired to that position of hers. Then the Fully Awakened One, the Leader, rejoiced [in my action and predicted] my obtaining that position: "One hundred thousand world cycles from now, there will be reborn in the world the Teacher who will be named Gotama through his lineage, a descendant of the Okkaaka clan. "At that time there will be a disciple of the Teacher named Kisaa-Gotamii who will be an heir to the Doctrine, a legitimate offspring of the Doctrine." Hearing that at that time, I was filled with appreciative joy, and throughout my life I served the Leader, the Conqueror, with the requisites with my heart full of loving kindness. As a result of that virtuous deed and of my resolve and purpose, when I abandoned my human body, I went to the Taavati.msa realm. ===tbc, connie. #74589 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jul 24, 2007 1:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Church Lady is among us upasaka_howard Hi, Colette (and Larry) - In a message dated 7/24/07 12:04:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ksheri3@... writes: > Hi Larry, > > I know I don't always say what I can and what I want to say but > that's only because the political scensorship that works through this > forum will not allow anything can disrupt the caste system. > <....> > > toodles, > colette > ========================= I've found DSG to be the least controlling Buddhist list I know among those on which the extremes of abusive behavior are proscribed. As for "political censorship", it doesn't literally apply in the case of a private organization, the rules of operation appropriately being, within the constraints of wider law, what the owner sets. It is to be expected that the subject-matter discussed on a list is not to go too far afield beyond that specified in the list description. Fortunately, Yahoo and other non-governmental providers allow for a multitude of lists with varying emphases, because it is in their financial interest to do so. With metta, Howard P.S. Since your post was a reply to a post of mine, I'm guessing you meant to write "Howard" when you wrote "Hi Larry". #74590 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 24, 2007 2:18 am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 171, 172 and Tiika. nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 171, 172 Intro: In this section it is explained again that kamma and its appropriate fruit arising in the continuity of lives are ultimate realities. There is no person who performs kamma and no person who experiences its fruit. ---------- Text Vis.171. Now it was also asked, 'Whose is the fruit, since there is no experiencer?' Herein: 'Experiencer' is a convention For mere arising of the fruit; They say 'It fruits' as convention, When on a tree appears its fruit. 172. Just as it is simply owing to the arising of tree fruits, which are one part of the phenomena called a tree, that it is said 'The tree fruits' or 'The tree has fruited', -------- N: As to the expression, ‘ one part of the phenomena called a tree’, the Tiika explains: the ruupas that are taken as the concept of tree (rukkhapa~n~natti). ---------- Text Vis.: so it is simply owing to the arising of the fruit consisting of the pleasure and pain called experience, which is one part of the aggregates 'deities' and 'human beings', that it is said 'A deity or human being experiences or feels pleasure or pain'. There is therefore no need at all here for a superfluous experiencer. ---------- N: The Tiika explains that when in the continuity of the khandhas (khandhasantaane) kusala cetanaa or akusala cetanaa arises, and it is said that someone performs merit or evil, the doer is a convention (kattuvohaaro). Also when there is the fruition (of kamma), and it is said that someone experiences happiness or sorrow, the experiencer is a convention (upabhu~njakavohaaro). Therefore, there is no other experiencer whosoever apart from the khandhas. That is the meaning. -------- Conclusion: It is important to know the difference between what is convention and what is ultimate truth. If one understands that, in the ultimate sense, there are mere dhammas performing good deeds and bad deeds, and mere dhammas that experience the results of these deeds, doubts will disappear about how kamma of the past that has fallen away can bear fruit later on, even in a next life. ********* Nina. #74591 From: Ken O Date: Tue Jul 24, 2007 9:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Response to E-card from Bangkok 3 (3) ashkenn2k Hi Phil . The > reflections on old age, sickness and death, and loss of the beloved > lead into the section on being owners of our kamma. That is the > point!!!! And that is unique to the Buddha. If it were just a > reflection on sickness, old age and death without the section on > ownership of kamma, it would just lead to despair. k: sickness and old age and death (excluding citta death here) are concepts but powerful mental objects which could induce object predominace paccaya. When this paccaya arise, one of these four cetasikas could be the leader and the four cetasikas are chanda (desire to do), viriya (energy or effort), citta and vimamsa (panna cetasika). So when Buddha said this, IMHO, it was to spur us to carry on investigating impermanence, understanding such objects lead to suffering. However one must not forget how do we know such concepts (mental objects) brings about suffering, it is due to the accumulative function of sana. Unpleasant feelings could arise together with this sana. It is sana that remembers concepts and associated this concept as unpleasant and not concepts that remembers and the bring about of these unpleasant feelings. This is a subtle difference we have to understand. It is sana at work and not concept at work that leads us to have an urgency to move forward to follow the path. Additonally, conventional objects used here are for paccaya to follow the path and ultimately it is the unpleasant feelings that spur the revulsion towards rebirth and one move forward to the path. Kamma is a cetasika, ownership of kamma was said because kusala kamma conditon kusala rebirth vice versa and furthermore because of the accumulative function of kamma, one cannot run away from it. Kamma is suffering and sana remembers it also and it becomes object predominance paccaya. In a deeper meaning, IMHO it was said so that one could understand that kamma is anatta, if one could control kamma, we would all be born in heaven all the time. Hence reflection of kamma is said to emphasis on the anatta of dhamma, one cannot run away from it or change akusala kamma to kusala kamma (in the sense no one could change ownership of kamma). Because of anatta, kamma leads to suffering and afflictions. Hence it spur us again to follow the path. Cheers Ken O Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (27) #74592 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 24, 2007 11:19 am Subject: Conditions, Ch 8, no 4. nilovg Dear friends, Kusala can lead to aversion, it can be a natural decisive support- condition for aversion. When we make an effort to help someone else that person may not appreciate it and then aversion may arise. If we do not study the different conditions we may not understand how the doing of good deeds can be a condition for the arising of akusala citta. If we do not develop satipatthåna with the purpose of eradicating akusala, the kusala we perform can, without our noticing it, be a natural decisive support-condition for akusala citta. Kusala citta can lead to bodily discomfort, which is akusala vipåkacitta. One may, for example, pay respect at the Buddhist holy places in India, and this is a wholesome deed. However, the hotel where one stays may be dilapidated, without facilities, and this causes one to suffer from heat, mosquitos and other discomforts. Thus, there is body-consciousness which is akusala vipåka. This is produced by akusala kamma, but it is also conditioned by kusala kamma by way of natural decisive support-condition. Phenomena which arise are not merely conditioned by one type of condition but by several types. Accumulated unwholesome inclinations are a natural decisive support- condition for the arising of akusala citta at the present time. Accumulated dosa can lead to the killing of living beings. Also accumulated lobha can lead to killing, for example, when one kills because one wishes to have someone’s property. At the moment of killing there is dosa-múla-citta, but lobha can motivate the deed, it can be natural decisive support-condition. When one commits one kind of akusala it can easily lead to the committing of other types of akusala. We read in the “Patthåna”( same section, § 423, IV, c): Killing is related to killing... stealing... unlawful intercourse with the other sex... lying... slander... rude speech... foolish babble... avarice... ill-will... wrong views by strong dependence- condition. It is then explained that stealing and the other kinds of evil are related to all kinds of akusala by way of decisive support-condition. We may think that it is not very harmful to indulge in idle, useless speech. However, this kind of speech can be a natural decisive support-condition for lying, stealing, killing or other kinds of akusala kamma. ****** Nina. #74593 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 24, 2007 11:24 am Subject: Listening to the Dhamma, Ch 6, no 5. nilovg Dear friends, Medium defilement, pariyutthåna kilesa, which arises with akusala citta may be, for example, lobha which arises after seeing or hearing, a slight attachment to visible object or sound which we do not notice. There are different degrees of medium defilements, they can be very slight or more intense. We discussed defilements which are classified in different groups, such as the “fetters” (saÿyojana) which fetter us to rebirth again and again, or the “intoxicants” or “cankers” (åsavas), which are fermenting and keep on flowing from birth to death. Acharn Sujin reminded us that even a slight attachment is a canker. The åsavas are: the canker of sensuous desire the canker of becoming (birth) the canker of wrong view the canker of ignorance. They are not theory, they pertain to our daily life. The canker of ignorance keeps on flowing, we are ignorant of what occurs innumerable times in daily life, of seeing or hearing. Acharn Sujin spoke many times about seeing which sees visible object. Some people may not find it interesting to hear so often about seeing, but it is most beneficial to be reminded of seeing which sees visible object. We can realize our ignorance at such moments. We forget that seeing only sees what impinges on the eyesense: colour or visible object. It is at another moment that we think of the person or thing we perceive. Cittas arise and fall away extremely rapidly, but we do not realize that cittas arise and fall away, succeeding one another. When we read the scriptures we can notice that the Buddha repeated time and again that pleasant or unpleasant objects are experienced through the eyes, the ears and the other doorways, and that on account of the objects defilements arise. We cannot be reminded of the truth often enough. We read in the “Kindred Sayings” (IV, Salåyatana Vagga, Kindred Sayings on Sense, Second Fifty, Ch 5, 94, Including (the sixfold sense-sphere) that the Buddha said: There are these six spheres of contact, monks, which are untamed, unguarded, unwatched, unrestrained, bringers of Ill. What six? The eye, monks... the tongue... the mind,... are untamed... bringers of Ill. There are these six spheres of contact, monks, which are well tamed, well guarded, well watched, well restrained, bringers of happiness. What six? The eye... the tongue... the mind... Thus spoke the Exalted One... ******* Nina. #74594 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Jul 24, 2007 3:05 pm Subject: Re: Response to E-card from Bangkok 3 (3) kenhowardau Hi Phil, ------ <. . .> Ph: > I enjoy our exchanges though I doubt we'll ever agree. Two days left to go before we leave, and posts to write to RK, Sukin and Connie so I'll drop it here. ------- Understood - don't answer this. ---------------- <. . .> Ph: > Ken, it has to be appreciated that the Buddha taught to different people for different purposes. I would have thought that was a basic principle of Dhamma. This idea that *all* suttas are about understanding of present dhammas is just plain incorrect. I know you won't believe that, because you are right into AS, and that's fine - it doesn't do you any harm, and there is no danger of many people believing that the purpose of every sutta is to understand present dhammas. ---------------- It's a pity I can't be more conciliatory and see merit in both sides of the argument the way you do. But I just can't do it. To my mind, the Dhamma is about paramattha dhammas, and that means it can't be about sentient beings. The two cannot exist in the one universe. The laws that allow for one cannot allow for the other. ------------------------ Ph: > I know you have little respect for Bhikkhu Bodhi's understanding, and there is no reason in particular that he should understand any better than AS just because he's the big translation guy, ------------------------- It must appear pompous for a beginner like me to be disagreeing with the great B Bodhi. However, I think he shares the view that there can be only one kind of reality in any one universe. It is for that reason (as I see it) that he downplays the relevance of the Abhidhamma. He has opted for the conventional universe. ------------------------------------ Ph: > You want suttas dealing with paramattha dhammas? Go to SN. Very deep, very deep, is the Dhamma of SN. Samyutta 35 on the ayatanas, Samyutta 22 on the khandas - these suttas are tres paramattha, and there is no need to do mental gymnastics, or lobha- driven stretching of the panna muscle in order to get at the paramattha. ------------------------------------- I take your point about mental gymnastics. In many sutta it seems that there are obvious interpretations that need to be explained away before the paramattha interpretation can fit. That doesn't shock me because I have no doubt that the only possible interpretation is the paramattha (momentary reality) one. I enjoy seeing paramattha meaning in conventional language. Also, I think just a couple of explanations are needed to cover a large number of otherwise anomalous points. Perhaps we can come back to this some other time. -------------------- <. . .> Ph: > As understanding develops, these suttas will reveal themselves to be deeper than I thought, but I really doubt I'll ever believe, as AN told Han, that we are meant to reflect that "it is the aggregates that get old, get sick and die!" That's ...ahem...not a helpful teaching. --------------------- It can't be any other way! An object can be either ultimately real or ultimately illusory. There are no half measures. If anything really does grow old and sick and die that 'thing' must be a conditioned dhamma. Otherwise, there is no ultimately real form of ageing, sickness and death. We can't have it both ways. ------------------------- <. . .> Ph: > I know there is no person in ultimate terms. We'll get to understanding that, or not, but starting off with a practice based on understanding this is absurd. For the umpteenth time, putting the cart before the horse, -------------------------- Can you see why that argument would have no effect on me? If your horse is a metaphor for belief in self (belief in conventional reality) it will never pull the cart of right understanding. --------------------------------------- Ph: > we start where we are, not where we want to be etc etc. ---------------------------------------- We only start from where we are if there is right understanding of where we are. Otherwise, any effort we make towards enlightenment is wrong effort. There is no point in flogging a dead horse. :-) ----------------------------- <. . .> Ph: > Check out AN III 100 in which the goldsmith first gets rid of the grit and rough sand, and then the medium, and then the very fine. I often think of an empty lot filled with rusty old refrigerators and rotten cardboard boxes full of smutty magazines. If you want to cultivate the land, the crap has to get lugged out. It's not a subtle job, you just do it. ------------------- As I was saying, just a couple of explanations (aka mental gymnastics) are needed to cover a wide range of otherwise anomalous points. Let's talk about them when you get back. Ken H #74595 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Jul 24, 2007 3:35 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: satipatthana as island of refuge indriyabala Hi Sarah, Scott - >Sarah: When the format using the present perfect continuous is used (as in the above quote), it may just be a common 'device' used in the texts, like in the use of the 4 right efforts, all applying to a single moment. In any case, I think it's clear the meaning doesn't mean putting away covetousness and grief and then developing satipatthana! As discussed, at moments of satipatthana, the hindrances are 'put away' as the quote makes clear. > T: It is clear that when covetousness, grief, and any hindrances arise during satipatthana bhavana, they are abandoned in that moment (e.g. by suppression). However, the context of AN 10.61 is clearly about sequential development of the various dhammas, starting from 'sappurisasa.msevotissa' and ending with 'vijjaavimuttimpaha.m'. Tep === #74596 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Tue Jul 24, 2007 3:40 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Insects? Robots? Re-evaluating Walking Meditation dacostacharles Hi buddhatrue, Thanks for the points on walking med. I had forgotten about it and it as a practice. Charles DaCosta _____ From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of buddhatrue Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2007 15:41 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] Insects? Robots? Re-evaluating Walking Meditation Hi Sarah, <.....> > S: Ooh, a very controversial topic is walking meditation. Of course, > there's lots in U.P. under 'Walking, walking meditation'. James: I took a look and most of the posts are in regard to the Satipatthana Sutta and a commentary which appears to some to contradict what the sutta states (something about how jackals know that they are walking, etc., etc...). Really, I am more interested in jhana cultivation these days, so I didn't find anything too useful. What I had in mind is this quote from the Vism.: "Postures: walking suits one, standing or sitting or lying down another. So he should try them, like the abode, for three days each, and that posture is suitable in which his unconcentrated mind becomes concentrated or his concentrated mind more so. Any other should be understood as unsuitable." Vism. IV, 41 I think that this is pretty straight forward in advocating walking meditation. (Of course, it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if there is a commentary or sub-commentary or sub-sub-commentary which could be spun in some odd way to seemingly contradict this passage ;-)) ... #74597 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Tue Jul 24, 2007 3:51 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Meditation and mental health (was What other teachers...) dacostacharles Hi Phil, This is a subject I am also interested in. IMO, you have to look at the individual first (state and needs) and then for a type of practice that could meet the needs and take the patient to the next desired state. I would think this could be tricky because a lot would depend on the patient's level (e.g., self-awareness, social-awareness). Charles DaCosta _____ From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Phil Sent: Friday, July 13, 2007 16:19 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Meditation and mental health (was What other teachers...) Hi again Scott and all Maybe I'll open a thread on this - it's a topic I'm interested in and would appreciate hearing more from you. Not to debate, just for what the literature says about meditation in mental health treatment. Not in detail, of course, but if there are any links you could provide... > ... #74598 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Jul 24, 2007 5:26 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: satipatthana as island of refuge scottduncan2 http://www.mahasi.org.mm/discourse/E24/E24ch04.htm S: "... but you may like to take a look at this link: I keep losing some pasted in text of interest on 'vineyya' with lost connections etc, but I think it's interesting and relevant. Could you help me by searching in the article for 'vineyya' and then posting the relevant paragraph(s)." Here it is, Sarah: "...The Ven. Kheminda observed: “It will be noted here that one has to practise each foundation of mindfullness ‘having got rid of covetousness and grief.â€? What he meant by this observation is that Satipa.t.thaana can be practised only after hindrances have been overcome by jhaana. It appears that he does not understand the usage of ‘ya’ in the word ‘vineyya’ in the introductory passage of Mahaa Satipa.t.thaana Sutta. This ‘ya’ in the word ‘vineyya’ (having overcome) is used to denote a verb prior to the main verb or a verb of the same time with the main verb. In this particular context, it does not denote ‘prior’ but ‘at the same time’, because the practice of Satipa.t.thaana and overcoming of covetousness and grief take place at the same time. Here ‘vineyya’ is used according to the Paa.li grammatical usage and it means ‘overcoming’, not ‘having overcome’. That it is to be taken in this sense is made clear by the explanation of ‘there arises in him knowledge after reflecting on the sign’ (a sentence in Pa.tisambhidaamagga) in the Commentary to Pa.tisa.m bhidaamagga) as well as in Visuddhimagga. “At this point, knowledge of reflex ion has arisen in him, with reference to which it is said: ‘When he brings to mind as impermanent, there arises in him knowledge after reflecting on what? When he brings to mind as painful ... as notâ€"self, there arises in him knowledge after reflecting on what? When he brings to mind as impermanent, there arises in him knowledge after reflecting on the sign. When he brings to mind as painful, there arises in him knowledge after reflecting on occurrence, When he brings to mind as notâ€"self, there arises in him knowledge after reflecting on the sign and occurrence.â€? (Ps. ii, 63) (Path of Purification, page 761, 51) (Note 93) In the above Pa.tisambhidaamagga passage, ‘there arises in him knowledge after reflecting on the sign,’ if it were to be taken as it stands, will mean ‘there arises in him knowledge having reflected on the sign’. As a matter of fact, it must not be taken in that sense, because arising of knowledge and reflecting on the sign take place at the same time. And yet the word ‘after’ is used according to usage as if one takes place before the other. That is why Visuddhimagga explains as follows: “And here after reflecting on the sign (means) having known the sign of formation by means of the characteristic of impermanence as unlasting and contemporary. Of course, it is not that, first having known, subsequently knowledge arises; but it is expressed in this way according to common usage, as in the passage beginning ‘Due to (lit, having depended upon) mind and mental object, mind consciousness arises’ (M. i, 112), and so on. Or alternatively it can be understood as expressed according to the Method of Identity by identifying the preceding with the subsequent. The meaning of the two expressions (that is, ‘occurrence’ and ‘the sign and occurrence’.) should be understood in the same way.â€? (Path of Purification, page 761, 52) (Note 94) Pa.tisambhidaamagga Commentary also explains in this wise. (PsC 2, 166) From the foregoing passages it is quite clear that ‘reflecting on the sign’ and ‘knowledge’ occur at the same time. To support this interpretation, Paramatthama~njuusaa cites a sentence from Pa.ticcavaara, Pa.t.thaana: “Dependent on kusalaa dhammaa, by way of hetu (root)(, kusalaa dhammaa arises. Considering these Paa.li and Commentarial passages, it should be understood that the dhammas that take place simultaneously are often stated according to common usage as if they take place one after the other. Therefore, in the Mahaa Satipa.t.thaana passage, contemplation of the four foundations of mindfullness and overcoming of hindrances are to be understood as taking place at the same time. It means that hindrances are overcome while contemplating the four foundations of mindfullness. This interpretation is confirmed by the Mahæ Satipa.t.thaana Sutta Commentary which states: “By overcoming covetousness and grief is meant the fruit of contemplation.â€? (Note 95) It means that Satipa.t.thaana contemplation brings about the riddance of covetousness and grief. So the Ven. Khemida’s observation “one has to practise each foundation of mindfullness “having got rid of covetousness and griefâ€? is also not in accord with this commentarial passage..." Sincerely, Scott/Sarah #74599 From: "Phil" Date: Tue Jul 24, 2007 5:43 pm Subject: Re: No way not to seek emotional comfort in Dhamma philofillet Hi Sukin and all Thanks for waiting. I have a lot of threads to tie up (from my pov) before our departure, so I doubt I'll be very thorough in my response. But I'll be reflecting on your famous pariyatt >>> patipati post during my vacation. :) > >If so then one question > > is, how do you explain the fact that most of the Buddha's disciples > > experienced insight and even enlightenment while lietning to the > > Teachings or while going about their business of daily living? > > Phil: I am told so often that people in the Buddha's day had better > understanding. Surely you've used this argument yourself in disputing > the value of people these days studying suttas and feeling confident in > their understanding. > > S: I think you misunderstood my point. Howard was suggesting the > need for a prior or `warm up' practice in order that the mind becomes > calm and concentrated, and this was then meant to condition > satipatthana. My bringing up the example of the Buddha's disciples was > in order to show that such a practice was not part of their path to > insight / enlightenment. But as with all dhammas, panna arises by NDS > Condition. I wonder if it wasnt't par tof their practice. The Buddha told his monks to go to the roots of trees, etc, and meditate. The Buddha told people to sit upright and place mindfulness of the body in front of them, or something like that. That's just one example. I think, as Sarah (I'm afraid I'll keep bringing this up, Sarah) has been kind/truthful enough to acknowledge, Acharn Sujin stands alone in the Dhamma world when it comes to not intentionally choosing a meditation object to pursue, or intentionally having one assigned. Perhaps AS has the correct insight into the texts and *everyone* (and it is everyone until someone can show me differently) else is wrong. As always, I acknowledge that that is possible. > =============== > Phil: These anecdotes about people hearing the Buddha's > teaching and becoming enlightened - I suspect they are irrelevant to > people in this day and age. > > S: The relevance is as I said above, to show that panna can arise at > anytime without any preliminary formal meditation. Ph: I think it is a bit odd the way students of AS deny that people cacn understand suttas on their own in thid day and age, and yet they imply by their interest in these anecdotes that supramundane panna can arise at any time for people in this day and age. So people are too thick to understand suttas? Fine, I'll but that. But buying that means dropping interest in those anecdotes about sudden englightenment in daily life. Ah, but AS students could consider themselves amoung the chosen few of course. And they might be right. > =============== > Phil: Paying too much attention to those anecdotes is dangerous, I think. > A > form of craving wisdom that is way beyond one. > > S: Yes, if the craving is predominant, no, if there is merely an interest > to `understand'. Ph: Yes, well said Sukin. I think, however, because we are all conditioned to desire results from Dhamma whether we know it or not (in my opinion) the craving *will* become predominant no matter whether it is couched in words about patience. So, there are all these reminders to study dhammas arising in daily life. I think that represents a form of craving. There are many "shoulds" in AS talks about this. That is bound to condition craving. There should never be "shoulds" attached to panna, I think. There can be many helfpul shoulds applied to intentional practices that might condition the arising of panna, but never "should" + panna. I think there is a lot of that in AS talks. I remember questioning that a lot before I "left." If there was none of this talk of "one should study dhammas in daily life" I could find it easier to believe that there can be an "interest to understand" without craving panna. Remember, `just to understand' is just to understand > and does not have to be translated as meaning `need to understand at > some particular level', be it satipatthana, vipassana or enlightenment. Ph: See above. I have my doubts.I think we are conditioned in a very strong way to seek to swim above our heads, so to speak. This might also apply to folks who seek jhanas when the conditions aren't there. As for my approach to meditation, it is just training the mind to drop the worst forms of kilesa, that's all. I hope there are conditions to seek jhanas somedayre surely are for some people. > =============== > Phil: Best to get to work on the gross defilements and drop any > expectations about sudden enlightenment in the midst of daily life > activities. > > S: Expectation of any level of understanding, even satipatthana is > obviously unhelpful, let alone enlightenment. What is not so obvious but > equally impractical is the idea that defilements no matter how gross can > be lessened by any practice other than vipassana. Yes, we do make the > distinction between gross and subtle akusala, but perhaps forget about > the roots. What seem like gross and workable, would for you and me, > involve some kind of `suppression' or the other. Best attitude towards > them would imo be, as with any other dhamma, to understand at > whatever level we are able to. Ph: Well said, Sukin. I'm sorry to make assumptions about what is going on in other people's minds. I tend to do that, used to do that when I criticized meditators. I shouldn't assume that because I craved panna when listening to AS that all her students do. But there are too many "shoulds" that hint at wanting too much too soon. And the very fact that AS and her students deny the mundane path as it is taught by all other teachers I have heard naturally makes me assume that she and her students are aiming too high, prematurely. I'll drop it there without reading further. I ahve about a dozen posts to go. Thanks! Metta, Phil