#74600 From: "Phil" Date: Tue Jul 24, 2007 5:53 pm Subject: Re: Seeking discussion on meditation methods/ where is the mudita? philofillet HiRobert > I can quote(If you like) some recent posts on esangha etc from > people with extreme reactions after retreat, and some with really > bizarre behaviour. According to the longterm meditators these people > have prior dispositions to mental illness and they are told not to > do retreats: but I can't imagine turning someone away from Dhamma, > after all what is mental illness but a degree of lobha, dosa and > avijja. > > I guess these are rare cases(although I could pages of examples) but > it shows meditation is not a panacea, there has to be discernment > into what is genuine kusala and akusala. I would agree with you. My approach to meditation is very unambitious, as I just posted to you. I think the so-called "insight meditation" as taught by people such as Joseph Goldstein and the so- called vipassana meditation (they acknowledge it is a misnomer) as tught by the Sayadaws can only be helpful if practiced in a not-too- serious-but-a-little-bit-serious way, at home. There can be no harm in the mind being trained to have less identification with mental phenomenon, to form the habit of dropping thoughts of lust and hatred. (The Buddha emphatically told us to do so, in a sutta that I will post later today.) I personally am not attracted to doing retreats, though I could here, even in Japan, because I think there is too much expecation built into it. But perhaps I should try someday. We'll see. (Also, I'm a terrible snorer and wouldn't want to sleep surrounded by people who would pretend not to hate me for it! haha) Metta, Phil #74601 From: "Phil" Date: Tue Jul 24, 2007 6:00 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Seeking discussion on meditation methods/techniques philofillet Hi Sarah > S: Well, I think if you and others make it clear whom you are addressing, > like you did at the top of this message, then generally people respect > that. Of course, if it's a 'Dear All & Sundry', then All & Sundry are > likely to respond:). > > Derailing....well... > > Anyway, you're welcome to make it clear you only want to hear from other > 'meditators' anytime. Make it as 'closed' as you like - your corner, pal! > (I meant just the same to Howard with his CMA corner.) I don't know about this, Sarah. Expecting people to stay out of a thread seems like bad manners to me. Anyways, there's no keeping Ken out! (haha, affectionately said.) I think I'll move to Dhamma List for awhile when I get back from Canada. A quieter list would be good for me for the time being. My inability to stay off the internet always aggravates Naomi - DSG is so rich and so active that it is very difficult for me to minimize my activity here. Hoepfully that could change, we'll see. And I won't dicuss meditation techniques here, no, that's not suitable here. I will only discuss it at a forum where it is generally agreed that meditation (or "formal meditation") is the central aspect of the Buddha's teaching. The fact that DSG is the only Buddhist forum where that is not generally agreed makes DSG very valuable, of course. Thanks as always to you and Jon for running the best (compared to and with) any other group on the 'net, and to everyone for contributing in such an interesting way. Mettta, Phil #74602 From: "Phil" Date: Tue Jul 24, 2007 6:24 pm Subject: Re: Seeking discussion on meditation methods/ where is the mudita? philofillet Hi Connie > I'd guess when I said something about meditators liking to talk I was being a jerk and meant something along the lines of how I read a lot of people saying metta, metta, metta-tation yet sounding all snarly and horridly put upon by what others might think or say. Ok. That's a good point. Metta meditation (I don't do it, personally) doesn't guarantee that one won't be snarly, but I definitely think it trains the mind in a less snarly direction. I personally think reflecting on various suttas (the 5 daily recollections, for example) conditions a lot of patience and friendliness towards people. I don't know if that is metta, or clinging to wanting to be a friendly and patient person, but even one clings to wanting to be a friendly and patient person, and one actually becomes more friendly and patient, that is good enough for busy worldlings. The wrong view that is **immediately* dangerous and warned about by the Buddha as such is not clinging to self. That is the deepest and most pernicous wrong view, mind you. But not the one that is immediately dangerous. *end of irrelevant sidetrack* > I tend to think along the lines of "sorry you felt the way you did >about how you took what was done/said and that now you seem to want someone else to make it all better". If it was that, a nicer way might have been: surely you've heard the one about the metta practitioner who was always irritated whenever someone interrupted him. Ph: Yes, it's a good anecdote. Also the sutta about the maid whose lady was also kind when things were going well, so she decided to test her. It's easy to have "metta" when things are temporarily going well duing to the viccisitudes of life. > I can't agree with you that muditaa (or any of >the 'loves') "should celebrate others' happiness, whether misguided >or not" but would say, rather, that muditaa should express more >concern with another's welfare than that. I fail to see how muditaa >would make people happy when they believe someone else is headed for trouble... unless maybe it was along the lines of "ah, here perhaps I (we) can help (each other)". I hesitate about the we/other bit because it sounds like 'radiate metta to yourself', but I think you know what I mean & there's nothing wrong with Ye Olde Golden Rule as far as I know. Ph: Actually, I have always agreed with you on this point on mudita. How can we celebrate their happiness when they are going the wrong way. But mudita is taught as a non-judgemental mindstate. Perhaps there are moments of mudita together with moments of understanding the ultimate harmfulness of a person's view. But I guess mudita softens the way we see the world. A very strict believer in the Buddha's teaching could see suffering being conditioned everywhere, everywhere where people are enjoying each other's company. Any witnessing of parents loving their children, spouses loving each other - all the suffering that is being conditioned by those attachments, technically speaking. But the Buddha didn't want us to go through life seeing suffering everywhere all the time - that would drive us mad. Maybe mudita is a kind of balm in that sense. > No problem on my part with "closed threads". It seems to me there are a lot of them going on all the time anyway even when they aren't explicitly declared to be so. {btw, mr! - have you got the dojo entrance exams & filters ready yet?} Ph: I've thought a lot about that one! See, I still think about dojo busting, now I am the buster, I think. I think there is something to be said about discourse where everyone is on the same page, where the waters have calmed on controversial topics so shared understanding can deepen. But of course that happens at DSG as well. > > One of the problems I've seen (yes, 'in real life' so I don't know about on-line) with people sharing their "meditation experiences" is a tendency to turn the thing into what I think of as a circle jerk. Don't go there! Ph: Great bad, the Circle Jerks. I forgot all about them. Yes, but there is something to be said for being encouraged by people to carry on, to keep trying. I think the biggest problem for me, and the one that will probably end up keeping me from discussing meditation techniques is that it would condition a lot of discoursive thinking during the meditation itself. A kind of "this is neat, I want to tell the group about this" sort of thing. OK, on to the next post. Thanks Connie! Metta, Phil #74603 From: "Phil" Date: Tue Jul 24, 2007 6:40 pm Subject: Re: Mindfulness of Walking and General Deportment of the Body philofillet Hi Sott > Thanks for your kind post. One phrase kept me pondering, sorry about > the delay: Ph: This was neat. Because your response for the phrase that go you pondering has had me pondering, now and then, for the last couple of days. > > P: "...I know writing it out builds your confidence..." > > Scott: Not that it is that important, but writing it out builds > understanding (pa~n~na) for me, not confidence (sadhaa). The > confidence in the Dhamma is already quite strong - the understanding > is out of balance, at least in my case, as I look at it. PH: This is huge! This is huge! So huge that I hesitate to type another word it is so huge and I have to get going. The gist of the hugeness is that...no, I gotta go. The gist is that my practice is driven by confidence that comes from seeing change in conditioned behaviour (I wouldn't call it saddha because I think that in the "confidence" there is a lot of clinging to being a better person, and this clinging is most definitely *not* contrary to the way the Buddha taught to folks like me) while for you there is the very admirable pursuit of understanding the texts as truly as possible. We can see the faith/wisdom balance at work here. The Buddha *did* encourage people to see where the indriyas are out of balance, and do something about it. (This is another poing on which AS is out of tune, I think) I know I am lacking diligence with respect to developing understanding. I've also been thinking about whether it is possible to find a TRUE reading of the texts that doesn't depend on one's teachers interpretation. I mean, I listen to the Sayadaws, who are deeply versed in Abhidhamma and read the same commentaries, and their appraoch is way, way, way different from AS. (sorry, I know you prefer to talk about dhammas, not people - my inability to do so ties in with the above indriya imbalance.) I honestly don't think their interpretation is necessarily more truthful than AS's - their meditation technique has too many expectations for progress built into it. But the radical difference in the approaches of different teachers reading the same texts made me wonder about whether there is an intrinsic truth in the texts or whether it will always be shaded by the teacher. Scott, to be honest, I think it will be very difficult for you to find any intrinsic truth that is not shaded by Acharn Sujin's interpretation and teaching of it. No matter how thoroughly you studt the texts, and the Pali. (Which is very admirable, especially as busy you are with work and the kids. Amazing!) Anways, I guess I'll leave it there. Hopefully I'll be able to discourse with you in the way Tep does, someday, with constand reference to the texts. I just don't have that know. Lots of confidence, though, based on what the Dhamma has done for me to weaken the worst tendencies that were conditioned to work through me. That ain't saddha, I guess. It's all about me, and that's a suitable place to start. Metta, Phil #74604 From: "Phil" Date: Tue Jul 24, 2007 6:51 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Response to E-card from Bangkok 3 (3) philofillet Hi Nina (and sign off to all at end) > About meditating, that is fine. It can happen by conditions to deeply > consider this sutta. Again, you miss the point. Yes, deep reflection will happen or not happen due to conditions. But the contemplation is to be done "often" (key word!) by all kinds of people. Yes, the Buddha's clear teaching on this is a point that makes this happen. But anyone who approaches this sutta by thinking that reflection on it is valuable if and when it arises misses the point. I can imagine a student of AS going through life reflecting on this sutta once a year, conditions permitting, and thinking that it was valuable. That misses the point. You are a very intelligent woman. If you sat down with that sutta every morning and read it, and reflected on it as written, you would see what I mean. But that will never happen because you have been conditioned by AS to be scared of that sort of approach. Oh the horrible clinging involved! That's all right, you are benefiting from Dhamma in many other ways. But you have missed the boat on this sutta. > Here is something in the Visuddhimagga and tiika: > Text Vis.171. Now it was also asked, 'Whose is the fruit, since there > is no > experiencer?' Herein: > > 'Experiencer' is a convention > For mere arising of the fruit; > They say 'It fruits' as convention, > When on a tree appears its fruit. > > 172. Just as it is simply owing to the arising of tree fruits, which are > one part of the phenomena called a tree, that it is said 'The tree > fruits' or 'The tree has fruited', > ---------- > N: According to the Tiika: When in the continuity of the khandhas > kusala cetanaa or akusala cetanaa arises, and it is said that someone > performs merit or evil, the doer is a convention (kattuvohaaro). Also > when there is the fruition (of kamma), and it is said that someone > experiences happiness or sorrow, the experiencer is a convention > (upabhu~njakavohaaro). Therefore there is no other experiencer > whosoever apart from the khandhas. That is the meaning. > -------- > Conclusion: It is important to know the difference between what is > convention and what is ultimate truth. If one understands that, in > the ultimate sense, there are mere dhammas performing good deeds and > bad deeds, and mere dhammas that experience the results of these > deeds, doubts about how kamma of the past can bear fruit later on, > even in a next life, will disappear. Ph:Too deep, too soon. But interesting! "THere are mere dhammas performing good deeds and bad deeds, and mere dhammas that experience the results of these deeds." Interesting, and definitely the teaching of the Buddha. But rushing with craving to get this understanding is not the Buddha's way. The gradual training. Reflecting on suttas in the way they are written is the way to go for folks like me. (And all busy worldlings, I think, but there could certainly be exceptions.) OK, off to Canada tomorrow. Have a great summer everyone! Metta, Phil #74605 From: "Phil" Date: Tue Jul 24, 2007 8:21 pm Subject: Re: Response to E-card from Bangkok 3 (3) philofillet Hi again Nina and all >That's all right, you are benefiting > from Dhamma in many other ways. But you have missed the boat on this > sutta. It occurred to me to add this: Perhaps you didn't need this boat. We all have different needs, because of our different tendencies and the degrees to which greed, hatred and delusion have been accumulated. On the other hand, the Buddha *did* say that it was to be reflected on *often* by *all kinds of people* Big boat! Metta, Phil #74606 From: han tun Date: Tue Jul 24, 2007 9:24 pm Subject: Response to E-card from Bangkok 3 (4) hantun1 Dear Sarah, Nina and James, Sarah: - Prayer beads. By tradition? In the Buddha's time? What about understanding? For protection? For results? Akusala? --------------------- Han: - This has reference to my message # 73389 describing how I use prayer beads in my Recollection of the Nine Attributes of the Buddha, as a follow-up to James' presentations on the Recollection of the Buddha. - At the Foundation meeting, Ajahn Sujin and other participants asked me many questions, and I felt like I was defending my research thesis on the use of prayer beads. In fact, I do not know much about the prayer beads myself, and I had admitted to this effect in my message # 73389, when I wrote: "I recollect each Attribute for each prayer bead. I do not know what I am now doing is correct or not. I do not know whether the use of prayer beads is good or not." Of course, the participants at the meeting wouldn't know that I didn't know. Anyway, I will now try to respond to those questions as best as I can. -------------------- - By tradition? Yes, in Burma most of the religious activities, including the use of prayer beads, are traditional, if the 'tradition' means passing down of principles, beliefs, practices, etc., from the past to the present, from generation to generation. - In the Buddha's time? I do not know whether the prayer beads were used during the Buddha's time or not. - What about understanding? If the 'understanding' means the understanding of the meaning of the Pali words of the Nine Attributes of the Buddha, the answer is yes. If the 'understanding' means deeper than that, I do not know how to answer. - For protection? For results? I cannot answer this on behalf of other people, but as far as I am concerned, the answewr is yes, and no. Yes, I had often used the prayer beads for protection and for results, during my younger years, but not anymore now. Now, I am using the prayer beads in recollecting the Nine Attributes of the Buddha, to enhance my concentration in paying my tributes to the Buddha. - Akusala? I do not think that the use of prayer beads is akusala. -------------------- - In this connection, I like very much Nina's comments. In her meaasge # 73464, she wrote: "Why would prayer beads be wrong? There is no rule. You could also be mindful of motion, pressure or any other reality appearing when you press the beads. That is the highest respect to the Buddha we can give, because satipatthana is his teaching." I thank Nina, once again, for her kind advice. Respectfully, Han P.S. I am very grateful to those who have participated in the follow-up discussions to my Response to E-card from Bangkok 3 (3). Please forgive me for not participating, because my computer is still out of order, and I wish to cover all the topics concerning me as quickly as possible, while I had the limited opportunity of assess to the internet. #74607 From: "colette" Date: Tue Jul 24, 2007 7:28 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Church Lady is among us ksheri3 Hi Howard, Thanks for the reply to my mislabelled reply. Pardon me for the second here: <....> At the moment I'm trying to work through things like THE DOCTRINE OF KAYA IN HINAYANA AND MAHAYANA; BODHISATTVA IDEAL IN BUDDHISM; BUDDHIST TANTRA: SOME INTRODUCTORY REMARKS; and TRIMSIKA all of which are VERY DETAILED AND DIFFICULT TO GRASP for the lack of education I've been allowed to receive. YET, I am doing it. I am at a point in meditation where things are become aggitative to myself from the EXTERNAL world as I attempt to maintain a focus of what I'm trying to do. One group I've totally given up on because of their lack of any type of consciousness and cognition of what it is they are doin. They are now blaming me for doing things that do not mix with a group of students that have just begun learning the doctrine, which couldn't possibly be my fault since the moderator that is making these claims is the person that invited me to that list from a list we were both a part of and probably still are. Let me be the first to admit that I take liberties with words since I have to do this all on the fly. A lot of times I take broad concepts and ideas and just slap the easiest terminology that I got in my mind at that second. So, if "political censorship" was offensive then I appoligize if this offended any person. I merely was calling attention to an action that was being taken and I was attempting to define this action better. As for the rest of your reply to me well, I'm sorry no time, gotta go. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: <...> > ========================= > I've found DSG to be the least controlling Buddhist list I know among > those on which the extremes of abusive behavior are proscribed. As for > "political censorship", it doesn't literally apply in the case of a private > organization, the rules of operation appropriately being, within the constraints of > wider law, what the owner sets. > It is to be expected that the subject-matter discussed on a list is > not to go too far afield beyond that specified in the list description. > Fortunately, Yahoo and other non-governmental providers allow for a multitude of lists > with varying emphases, because it is in their financial interest to do so. > <...> #74608 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Jul 24, 2007 10:02 pm Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge kenhowardau Hi Howard, Thanks for answering my question: -------- <. . .> H: > Also, I really like the following from the Bahiya Sutta, which may well have multiple levels of meaning: "Herein, Bahiya, you should train yourself thus: 'In the seen will be merely what is seen; <. . .> --------- Ah, that brings back memories - from my meditation days. Like everyone else I knew at the time, I thought it meant 'Just look (etc), don't think!' The commentary notes that Nina provided were an eye opener. My impressions of the sutta are very different now. It strikes me now as being mainly about accumulations. Some people, like Bahiya, having heard the Dhamma in brief, understood it in detail. And how much detail there is! :-) Ken H #74609 From: han tun Date: Tue Jul 24, 2007 10:10 pm Subject: Response to E-card from Bangkok 3 (5) hantun1 Dear Sarah and All, Sarah: - Han's 'simple approach': Don't do evil, do good, purify the mind! Can anyone do that? But, akusala will arise. After seeing, there is akusala. No one can stop it. This is the difference between an arahat and worldlings. Understand! -------------------- Han: This has reference to Dhammapada Verse 183: Sabbapaapassa akara.nam Kusalassa upasampadaa Sacitta pariyodapanam Etam buddhaana saasanam. Not to do evil, to cultivate merit, to purify one's mind - This is the Teaching of the Buddhas. -------------------- - My 'simple approach' to the above instructions is very simple. Not to do evil, I observe the five precepts. To cultivate merit, I do as much as I can the ten Bases of Meritorious Action - Pu~n~na-kiriya vatthu (daana, siila, bhaavanaa, pacaayana, veyaavacca, pattidaana, pattaanumodana, dhamma-savana, dhamma-desanaa, ditthijjukamma). To purify one's mind, I am doing breath meditation and other selected Recollections. - Now, if I must have pa~n~naa and kusala citta for all my above actions, my 'simple approach' will no more be simple, and it will become very difficult for me. Because, I am sure I will not be able to have pa~n~naa and kusala citta all the time, for whatever I do, bodily, verbally or mentally. There are many, many times when I do automatically or spontaneously without ever thinking about pa~n~naa or kusala citta. I do not think I can aim for perfection, although I agree that it is very much desirable. Besides, with my limited knowledge and progress, I am not sure whether I can know if pa~n~naa or kusala citta arises in me at any given moment. - Then what do I do? I am afraid I have no other choice than doing only those that I can do with my physical and mental capability, i.e., the 'simple approach' that I am now doing, within the framework of what I believe is wholesome. If I do not achieve any fruits by my simple approach, I will not be able to help it. My duty is to do what I can to the best of my ability, and the result is beyond my control. The result will come, in accordance with the Law of Kamma, whatever that is due. And I will be happy with that. - This is the End of my response to E-card from Bangkok 3. In conclusion, I would like to stress on two points. (1) Whatever I have written is a descriptive account of what I believe and what I am doing, with all my short-comings and weaknesses. It is by no means prescriptive. I do not expect others to follow my example, or to agree with me, or to believe in what I believe. (2) I am writing these, not without gratitude to those who have kindly provided me with guidance and advice to put me on the right track. Whether I agree with them or not, I respect their opinion, because I know that they have done so with all their sincerity for my benefit. I regard them as my teachers, and for which act of their kindness I shall ever remain grateful! Respectfully, Han #74610 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jul 24, 2007 11:37 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ker-choo! sarahprocter... Hi Connie, --- L G SAGE wrote: > connie: Sure, even though at first he'd more or less said not to do so > since it really didn't bestow any such blessing, so saying it was > allowed after all might be like a prescription for harmonious relations > & not giving others grounds to fault the teachings/followers. ... S: and the same reasoning lies behind many of the Vinaya rules too. ... >The story > reminded me of the part of "The All-Embracing Net of Views" discussing > Suppiya speaking in dispraise of the Buddha: > > < countless praiseworthy qualities, he spoke in dispraise, criticism, and > blame of the Buddha, groundlessly charging him with one of the following > faults: "The recluse Gotama does not perform the proper duties such as > salutation, etc., towards those advanced in years. These duties are > called, in common idiom, 'the taste of concord'; therefore the recluse > Gotama is lacking in taste. He is worthless. {...snip...} ... S: thank you for this and the sub cy snipped for now. It reminds me of our recent discussion in Bkk on the Lohicca Sutta in DN and how everyone, even arahants, even the Buddha, will always be criticised as people like to criticise. We keep this in mind, but there are certain non-negotiables as in the examples given above. Keep sending me any related texts, Oh Sage! > S: p.s Glad to understand amongst the many threads that you now have > broadband, thanks to your kind mother, I believe. L.G.? > ======== > Yep!! Maybe more an altar ego for me than an alter? ... S: Either way, thanks to Lisa, the true Sage:). Perhaps it'll be her turn next? Metta, Sarah ====== #74611 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 1:18 am Subject: [dsg] Response to E-card from Bangkok 3 (5), to Han. nilovg Dear Han, You are so sincere, never pretending to know what you do not know yet. You are always so inspiring, I am happy to read your posts. But let us wait for your computer, also that is conditioned. ------- H: - Now, if I must have pa~n~naa and kusala citta for all my above actions, my 'simple approach' will no more be simple, and it will become very difficult for me. Because, I am sure I will not be able to have pa~n~naa and kusala citta all the time, for whatever I do, bodily, verbally or mentally. ------- N: The fact that you realize this is already a degree of pa~n~naa. Without the Buddha's teachings you would not have known this. ------- H: There are many, many times when I do automatically or spontaneously without ever thinking about pa~n~naa or kusala citta. I do not think I can aim for perfection, although I agree that it is very much desirable. Besides, with my limited knowledge and progress, I am not sure whether I can know if pa~n~naa or kusala citta arises in me at any given moment. -------- H: Aiming for perfection can also be motivated by desire. Moreover, what you say here goes for all of us. Only pa~n~naa that is already developed can know exactly when the citta is kusala. First the difference between nama and rupa has to be discerned by vipassanaa~naa.na. I think we can just know roughly when the citta is kusala, but most of the time we take it for 'my kusala'. --------- H: - Then what do I do? I am afraid I have no other choice than doing only those that I can do with my physical and mental capability, i.e., the 'simple approach' that I am now doing, within the framework of what I believe is wholesome. If I do not achieve any fruits by my simple approach, I will not be able to help it. My duty is to do what I can to the best of my ability, and the result is beyond my control. The result will come, in accordance with the Law of Kamma, whatever that is due. And I will be happy with that. -------- N: I would like you to take courage. Understanding can develop little by little and we should be grateful for the little understanding we have. There are different levels of 'Don't do evil, do good, purify the mind! ' Gradually we can learn that whatever we think or do is dhamma, a reality that is non-self, arisen because of conditions. Also using rosary beads. Do not worry about that. Pa~n~naa can grow and it can begin to understand different cittas. So many different cittas arise and fall away when you touch those beads. Nobody else can know what types of cittas arise, only pa~n~naa can. NIna. #74612 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 1:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Response to E-card from Bangkok 3 (3), to Phil. nilovg Hi Phil, have a fruitful time with useful reflections. I try not to miss the boat :-)). Who is trying? Nina. Op 25-jul-2007, om 3:51 heeft Phil het volgende geschreven: > OK, off to Canada tomorrow. Have a great summer everyone! #74613 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 3:31 am Subject: Re: What is the wrong view? (References from the MN anthology) jonoabb Hi Larry (and Tep) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" wrote: > > L: Can kusala citta be a factor of wrong path? > > > > T: No, a wrong path is associated with akusala citta and the three bad > > conducts. > > > > I appreciate the communication. Please correct me any time. > > > > Tep > > ==== > > > > Hi Tep, > > I agree, but I think Jon sees it differently. His view is that mundane right view is insight > knowledge only. I did say that during our exchange, but as I later clarified I did so in the context of mundane right view as a factor of the path. The texts also speak of right view that is not a path factor, as in the case of the passage from M.117 about "right view that is affected by the taints, partaking of merit, ripening on the side of attachment" quoted in your message. This is the right view that may, for example, be held by someone who has not heard the teachings. > Anything less is wrong view. Are you perhaps confusing wrong view and wrong path? I think what I said was that wrong path included all kusala that was not mundane path. This would be the case if, for example, a person gave dana or observed sila in the belief that it was the path to liberation from samsara. (It does not mean that dana and sila are always 'wrong path'!) Jon > L: Compare this to MN 117.7: > > "And what, Bhikkhus, is right view that is affected by the taints, partaking of merit, > ripening on the side of attachment? 'There is what is given and what is offered and what is > sacrificed; there is fruit and result of good and bad actions; there is this world and the > other world; there is mother and father; there are beings who are reborn spontaneously; > there are in the world good and virtuous recluses and brahmins who have realised for > themselves by direct knowledge and declare this world and the other world.' This is right > view affected by taints, partaking of merit, ripening on the side of attachment." #74614 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 3:43 am Subject: Re: What is the wrong view? (References from the MN anthology) jonoabb Hi Tep (and Larry) I agree with you on the distinction between 'faith' and 'right view'. The 2 Pali terms (saddha and samma ditthi) are clearly intended to represent different dhammas/elements Just a minor comment on something you say about 'right view': --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: ... > You also say that the mundane right view in MN 117 "is basically faith". I > agree with you somewhat, since the understanding that "there is this > world and the other world; ..." etc. is built upon faith. To my understanding, what is being referred to here is something that is directly realised, not something that is built on faith. Otherwise it would not be 'right view', which is a synonym for 'panna'. > But I like the following clear-cut definition of right view better. > > "Herein, what is right view(samma ditthi)? It is knowledge(~naana) of > sufferring, knowledge of the origin of suffering, knowledge of the > cessation of suffering, knowledge of the way leading to the cessation of > suffering. This is what is called right view." [Patisambhidamagga, I 241] Thanks for the quote from the Patisambhidamagga. This I think is right view as a factor of the path, and not the kind of right view referred to in M.117.7 as "right view that is affected by the taints, partaking of merit, ripening on the side of attachment". Is that how you would see it? Jon #74615 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 4:04 am Subject: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) jonoabb Hi TG Thanks for the prompt response! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@... wrote: > > Hi Jon ... > I don't buy it. Nor do I buy that seeing the impermanence, affliction, > nonself of "things" is in some way less deep. "Things," after all, boils down to > the elements and aggregates. That's it! The so called "things" can be seem > simultaneously as (or at least in quick secession) as elements and as the > objects that are structured by elements. If I'm being mindful at all, I > immediately reduce "objects" into elements...and if better mindful, I reduce the > elements into altering, afflicting, selfless, conditioned "happenings." Hollow > of anything "of themselves" yet dangerous in the ability to produce > affliction and destruction in minds that are not utterly free from them. I wonder if the Buddha was really talking about the deconstruction of conventional objects into elements and aggregates. That seems to me to be an exercise in mental gymnastics (to use a term employed by Phil recently). Likewise the further reducing of elements into altering, afflicting, selfless, conditioned "happenings", etc. That surely is a form of "thinking about" rather than directly experiencing. To my understanding, what the Buddha spoke of was not "conventional objects as elements" but "elements as elements". Furthermore, it is elements themselves that exhibit the various characteristics of which you speak, and it is by a deeper understanding of elements that these characteristics become apparent. > Turning away from the elements by seeing them as afflicting and hollow is > the prescription of the Buddha. Not focusing toward them and seeing them as > ultimate realities with their own characteristics. I can only give credence to > the latter approach as a remedial practice for beginners who are trying to > overcome the idea of "person." Other than that, It seems like a bizarre > twisting of what the Suttas actually say. To my understanding, it is only when elements are seen as they truly are -- as anicca, dukkha and anatta -- that there can be dispassion towards (turning away from) them. > I know some of you don't like to think the Suttas actually mean what they > actually say. But I believe the Buddha actually did mean what he actually > said. The Buddha analyzed and commented on his own teachings extensively in the > Suttas and I think he did a pretty good job. ;-) I agree with this ;-)) > I don't think the Buddha "fuzzed it up" because he didn't clearly say > exactly what he wanted to say. But I do think the clearest expression that the > Buddha can make has a "fuzzy element" to those minds that want something more > tangible to hold onto. By that I mean...if all conditions are dependent and > based on something else, there is nothing of "own characteristic" that can be > pinned down as an "ultimate reality." What I have said above does not require the taking of a position on the "own characteristic" issue, which I see as something of a distraction to this discussion ;-)) > The Middle Way excludes both existence or non-existence...or the views of > the same. Yes, agreed. Jon [Have snipped the rest of your post; may come back on that later] #74616 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 4:24 am Subject: Re: Response to E-card from Bangkok 3 (3) jonoabb Hi Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: ... > "There are five facts, O monks, which outght to be often > contemplated upon by everyone - whether man or waowm, householder or > one gone forth as a monk. What five? > 'I am sure to become old; I cannot avoid ageing.' > 'I am sure to become ill; I cannot avoid illness.' > 'I am sure to die; I cannot avoid death.' > 'I must be separated from all that is dear and beloved to me.' > > I maintain that it is impossible to reflect on this without > thinking about concepts (people), and within the framework of a > human lifetime, I sense a certain amount of frustration here ;-)). For you and me there will no doubt be a lot of thinking about people within the framework of a human lifetime when thoughts of old age, illness and death arise. Nothing wrong with that. No-one is suggesting otherwise. But we may also, based on our studies and experience to date, be prepared to consider, at an intellectual level at first, a deeper meaning that is not immediately apparent to us, a meaning in terms of paramattha dhammas. Because that is how an arahant would understand the same passage, I believe. > and I don't think the above reference to Vism. > changes that. How on earth can "all that is dear and beloved to me" > be a citta that falls away in a moment. "How on earth can "grow > sick, grow old and die" be about a dhamma? I can't imagine there is > a commentary anywhere on this sutta that says that "all that is dear > and beloved to me" is referring to a paramattha dhamma. I'm sure I > must be missing out on something because I really don't get why AS > students are so insistent on this "every sutta is about > understanding present realities" line. The reason why I think that every sutta is about understanding present realities in one way or another is that only that leads to liberation. So even when the Buddha is, for example, laying down a rule for the monks he is doing so with the development of the path to final liberation in mind. Otherwise there would be lots of tips on developing kusala (dana, sila and samatha) but it would not be development that takes us closer to escape from samsara. Jon #74617 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 4:54 am Subject: Re: Sammaadi.t.thi study corner scottduncan2 Dear All, 68. "Saying, 'Good, friend,' the bhikkhus deighted and rejoiced in the venerable Saariputta's words. Then they asked him a further question: 'But, friend, might there be another way in which a noble disciple is one of right view, whose view is straight, who has perfect confidence in the Dhamma, and has arrived at this true Dhamma?' - 'There might be, friends. Saadhaavusoti kho te bhikkhuu aayasmato saariputtassa bhaasita.m abhinanditvaa anumoditvaa aayasmanta.m saariputta.m uttari.m pa~nha.m aapucchu.m: " siyaa panaavuso a~n~nopi pariyaayo yathaa ariyasaavako sammaadi.t.thi hoti ujugataassa di.t.thi, dhamme aveccappasaadena samannaagato' aagato ima.m saddhammanti?" 69. "When, friends, a noble disciple understands the taints, the origin of the taints, the cessation of the taints, and the way leading to the cessation of the taints, in that way his is one of right view, whose view is straight, who has perfect confidence in the Dhamma, and has arrived at this true Dhamma. Siyaa aavuso. Yato kho aavuso ariyasaavako aasava~nca pajaanaati, aasavasamudaya~nca pajaanaati, aasavanirodha~nca pajaanaati, aasavanirodhagaamini.m pa.tipada~nca pajaanaati, ettaavataapi kho aavuso ariyasaavako sammaadi.t.thi hoti. Ujugataassa di.t.thi. Dhamme aveccappasaadena samannaagato aagato ima.m saddhammanti. 70. "And what are the taints, what is the origin of the taints, what is the cessation of the taints, what is the way leading to the cessation of the taints? These are the three taints: the taint of sensual desire, the taint of being, and the taint of ignorance. With the arising of ignorance there is the arising of the taints. With the cessation of ignorance there is the cessation of the taints. The way leading to the cessation of the taints is just this Noble Eightfold Path; that is right view, right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, and right concentration. Katamo panaavuso aasavo? Katamo aasavasamudayo? Katamo aasavanirodho? Katamaa aasavanirodhagaamini.m pa.tipadaati.? Tayo'me aavuso aasavaa: kaamaasavo bhavaasavo avijjaasavo. Avijjaasamudayaa aasavasamudayo. Avijjaanirodhaa aasavanirodho. Ayameva ariyo a.t.tha"ngiko maggo aasavanirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa -seyyathiida.m: sammaadi.t.thi sammaasa"nkappo, sammaavaacaa, sammaakammanto, sammaaaajiivo, sammaavaayaamo sammaasati, sammaasamaadhi. 71. "When a noble disciple has thus understood the taints, the origin of the taints, the cessation of the taints, and the way leading to the cessation of the taints, he entirely abandons the underlying tendency to lust, he abolishes the underlying tendency to aversion, he extirpates the underlying tendency to the view and conceit 'I am,' and by abandoning ignorance and arousing true knowledge here and now makes an end of suffering. In that way too a noble disciple is one of right view, whose view is straight, who has perfected confidence in the Dhamma, and has arrived at this true Dhamma." That is what the venerable Saariputta said. The bhikkhus were satisfied and delighted in the venerable Saariputta's words. Yato kho aavuso ariyasaavako eva.m aasava.m pajaanaati, eva.m aasavasamudaya.m pajaanaati, eva.m aasavanirodha.m pajaanaati, eva.m aasavanirodhagaamini.m pa.tipada.m pajaanaati, so sabbaso raagaanusaya.m pahaaya pa.tighaanusaya.m pa.tivinodetvaa asmiiti di.t.thimaanaanusaya.m samuuhanitvaa avijja.m pahaaya vijja.m uppaadetvaa di.t.theva dhamme dukkhassantakaro hoti. Ettaavataapi kho aavuso ariyasaavako sammaadi.t.thi hoti. Ujugataassa di.t.thi. Dhamme aveccappasaadena samannaagato aagato ima.m saddhammanti. Idamavoca aayasmaa saariputto. Attamanaa te bhikkhuu aayasmato saariputtassa bhaasita.m abhinandunti...(uddaana omitted). Sincerely, Scott. #74618 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 5:09 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (63) nichiconn dear friends, 10. Ekaadasakanipaato 1. Kisaagotamiitheriigaathaava.n.nanaa part 14 txt: "Imamhi bhaddake kappe, brahmabandhu mahaayaso; kassapo naama gottena, uppajji vadata.m varo. "Upa.t.thaako mahesissa, tadaa aasi narissaro; kaasiraajaa kikii naama, baaraa.nasipuruttame. "Pa~ncamii tassa dhiitaasi.m, dhammaa naamena vissutaa; dhamma.m sutvaa jinaggassa, pabbajja.m samarocayi.m. "Anujaani na no taato, agaareva tadaa maya.m; viisavassasahassaani, vicarimha atanditaa. "Komaaribrahmacariya.m, raajaka~n~naa sukhedhitaa; buddhopa.t.thaananirataa, muditaa satta dhiitaro. Pruitt: In this auspicious aeon, the Brahmaa Kinsman of Great Fame, Kasapa by name, the Best of Speakers, was born. At that time, the Great Sage's servant was the ruler named Kikii, who was the king of Kaasi in the great city Baraa.nasii. I was his fifth daughter, of great fame, by the name of Dhammaa. Having heard the Doctrine of the Best of Conquerors, I had a strong inclination to go forth. At that time, our father did not give us permission [to go forth], [so] we seven daughters grew up in comfort as princesses, and unwearying we followed the holy life as virgins for twenty thousand years in our home, delighting in the service of the Buddha with appreciative joy. txt: "Sama.nii sama.naguttaa ca, bhikkhunii bhikkhudaayikaa; dhammaa ceva sudhammaa ca, sattamii sa"nghadaayikaa. "Khemaa uppalava.n.naa ca, pa.taacaaraa ca ku.n.dalaa; aha~nca dhammadinnaa ca, visaakhaa hoti sattamii. "Tehi kammehi sukatehi, cetanaapa.nidhiihi ca; jahitvaa maanusa.m deha.m, taavati.msamagacchaha.m. "Pacchime ca bhave daani, jaataa se.t.thikule aha.m; duggate adhane na.t.the, gataa ca sadhana.m kula.m. "Pati.m .thapetvaa sesaa me, dessanti adhanaa iti; yadaa ca passuutaa aasi.m, sabbesa.m dayitaa tadaa. Pruitt: We were Samanii, Sama.naguttaa, Bhikkhunii, Bhikkhudaayikaa, Dhammaa, Sudhammaa, and, the seventh, Sa"nghadaayikaa. [In the present age we are] Khemaa, Uppalava.n.naa, Pa.taacaaraa, Ku.n.dalaa, me [Gotamii], Dhammdinnaa, and, the seventh is Visaakhaa. As a result of those virtuous deeds and of my resolve and purpose, when I abandoned my human body, I went to the Taavati.msa realm. Now, in my last existence, I was born in the family of a merchant - a family that was poor, without wealth, and ruined. And [then] I went to a wealthy family [as a bride]. Except for my husband, the rest [of the family] hated me, saying, "She is poor." But when I gave birth, I was then well loved by everyone. txt: "Yadaa so taru.no bhaddo, komalako sukhedhito; sapaa.namiva kanto me, tadaa yamavasa.m gato. "Soka.t.taadiinavadanaa, assunettaa rudammukhaa; mata.m ku.napamaadaaya, vilapantii gamaamaha.m. "Tadaa ekena sandi.t.thaa, upetvaabhisakkuttama.m; avoca.m dehi bhesajja.m, puttasa~njiivananti bho. "Na vijjante mataa yasmi.m, gehe siddhatthaka.m tato; aaharaati jino aaha, vinayopaayakovido. "Tadaa gamitvaa saavatthi.m, na labhi.m taadisa.m ghara.m; kuto siddhatthaka.m tasmaa, tato laddhaa sati.m aha.m. Pruitt: When he, [my son], was a fortunate young tender child, he grew up in comfort, and he was as pleasant to me as my own life. Then he [died and] went under the authority of Yama.* Afflicted by grief, of wretched speech, with tearful eyes and a weeping face, I took his dead corpse and went around lamenting. Then because of a certain friend, I apporached the Best of Physicians and said, "Sir, give me the medicine for reviving my son." The Conqueror, the One Proficient in the Way of Discipline, said, "Bring white mustard seed from whatever house death is not to be found in." Then I want to Saavatthi. I did not find such a house. Therefore [I thought,] "What good is white mustard seed?" Then I obtained mindfulness. *DPPN sv. Yama calls him "the god of death," and points out the passage in M III 179ff where he judges the dead. DPPN does not meantion that Yama actually lives in the deva world of that name (between the Taavati.msa and Tusita realms). { www.palikanon.com/english/pali_names/y/yama.htm } ===tbc, connie #74619 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 5:56 am Subject: Listening to the Dhamma, Ch 6, no 6. nilovg Dear friends, Then the Master added this further:— He meets with Ill, monks, who has not tamed The sixfold impact of the sphere of sense. They who have learned the mastery of these, With faith as companion,—they dwell free from lust. Beholding with the eye delightful things Or things unlovely, let him restrain his bent To lust for loveliness, and let him not Corrupt his heart with thoughts of “O, it is dear”. And when, again, sounds sweet or harsh he hears, Not led astray by sweetness, let him check The error of his senses. Let him not Corrupt his heart with thoughts of “O, it is sweet.” If some delightful fragrance meet the nose, And then again some foul malodorous stench, Let him restrain repugnance for that stench, Nor yet be led by lust for what is sweet. Should he taste savours that are sweet and choice, And then again what is bitter to the tongue, He should not greedily devour the sweet, Nor yet show loathing for the bitter taste. By pleasures impact not inebriate, Nor yet distracted by the touch of pain, To pain and pleasure both indifferent Let him be free from likings and dislikes. Obsessed (by lusts) are others: so obsessed They know and so they fare. But he dispels All the worlds vulgar fashionings of mind, And treads the path renunciation-bound. By contact of these six, if mind be trained, The heart is never shaken any more. Overcome these two, O monks,—lust and hate. Pass you beyond the bounds of birth and death. The arahat has eradicated all defilements and he is freed from the cycle of birth and death. We cannot force ourselves not to have defilements, but they can be objects of awareness so that they can be seen as they are, as impermanent and anattå. Through the development of satipaììhåna we shall come to know our defilements. ******* Nina. #74620 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 2:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Response to E-card from Bangkok 3 (3) upasaka_howard Hi, Phil (and Nina) - I think this is important material: In a message dated 7/24/07 9:52:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, philco777@... writes: > Hi Nina (and sign off to all at end) > > > >Here is something in the Visuddhimagga and tiika: > >Text Vis.171. Now it was also asked, 'Whose is the fruit, since > there > >is no > >experiencer?' Herein: > > > >'Experiencer' is a convention > >For mere arising of the fruit; > >They say 'It fruits' as convention, > >When on a tree appears its fruit. ------------------------------------- Howard: This is good - important. Even better than "It fruits," where the "it" refers to "a tree", is "It's raining," where the it has no reference at all. The raining "happens". Mere event. ------------------------------------- > > > >172. Just as it is simply owing to the arising of tree fruits, > which are > >one part of the phenomena called a tree, that it is said 'The tree > >fruits' or 'The tree has fruited', --------------------------------------- Howard: I also like the terminology "the phenomena called [in aggregate (Howard)] a tree". -------------------------------------- > >---------- > >N: According to the Tiika: When in the continuity of the khandhas > >kusala cetanaa or akusala cetanaa arises, and it is said that > someone > >performs merit or evil, the doer is a convention (kattuvohaaro). > Also > >when there is the fruition (of kamma), and it is said that > someone > >experiences happiness or sorrow, the experiencer is a convention > >(upabhu~njakavohaaro). Therefore there is no other experiencer > >whosoever apart from the khandhas. > ----------------------------------------- Howard: There is no experiencer at all, including any paramattha dhamma as "experiencer". There are just the various instances and modes of experiencing occurring - just the experiential events: the namas. --------------------------------------- That is the meaning.> > >-------- > >Conclusion: It is important to know the difference between what > is > >convention and what is ultimate truth. If one understands that, > in > >the ultimate sense, there are mere dhammas performing good deeds > and > >bad deeds, and mere dhammas that experience the results of these > >deeds, doubts about how kamma of the past can bear fruit later > on, > >even in a next life, will disappear. ---------------------------------------- Howard: The nama-dhammas *are* the performing, not agents of action. They *are* the activities. And, yes, it IS good to know the absence of an actor or actors, and the presence only of the mental activitities - it is good to know this in the sense of knowing about it and understanding it. It is incomparably better to start to experience it, and that does not follow merely from the knowing about it and understanding of it, but from training the mind. --------------------------------------- > > Ph:Too deep, too soon. But interesting! "THere are mere dhammas > performing good deeds and bad deeds, and mere dhammas that > experience the results of these deeds." > ---------------------------------------- Howard: I think it better to speak of "mere dhammas that are the performing of good deeds and bad deeds, and mere dhammas that are the experiencing of the results of these deeds." No agents, actors, or entities. ---------------------------------------------- Interesting, and definitely > > the teaching of the Buddha. But rushing with craving to get this > understanding is not the Buddha's way. The gradual training. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: I agree. It is, of course, important to know what the Buddha has pointed out as the way things actually are, but the goal has to be to come to directly know it ourselves, and, as you rightly see, Phil, the Buddha encouraged, no - insisted on, our actively training the mind towards that end. ---------------------------------------------- > Reflecting on suttas in the way they are written is the way to go > for folks like me. (And all busy worldlings, I think, but there > could certainly be exceptions.) > > OK, off to Canada tomorrow. Have a great summer everyone! ------------------------------------------------- Howard: You too, Phil!! :-) ------------------------------------------------ > > Metta, > > Phil > ======================= With metta, Howard #74621 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 2:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Church Lady is among us upasaka_howard Hi, Colette - Thank you for the following friendly post - it is much appreciated. BTW, the term 'hinayana' means "lowly way". Sometimes it even carries the sense of "despicable". These days very many Mahayanists realize that it is a poor term to use, and they may substitute 'Shravakayana' to refer to original Buddhism (all the early schools) or just Theravada if that is what is explicitly intended. With metta, Howard In a message dated 7/25/07 12:30:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ksheri3@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > Thanks for the reply to my mislabelled reply. > > Pardon me for the second here: > > <....> > At the moment I'm trying to work through things like THE DOCTRINE OF > KAYA IN HINAYANA AND MAHAYANA; > > BODHISATTVA IDEAL IN BUDDHISM; > > BUDDHIST TANTRA: SOME INTRODUCTORY REMARKS; > and > TRIMSIKA > > all of which are VERY DETAILED AND DIFFICULT TO GRASP for the lack of > education I've been allowed to receive. YET, I am doing it. > > I am at a point in meditation where things are become aggitative to > myself from the EXTERNAL world as I attempt to maintain a focus of > what I'm trying to do. > > One group I've totally given up on because of their lack of any type > of consciousness and cognition of what it is they are doin. They are > now blaming me for doing things that do not mix with a group of > students that have just begun learning the doctrine, which couldn't > possibly be my fault since the moderator that is making these claims > is the person that invited me to that list from a list we were both a > part of and probably still are. > > Let me be the first to admit that I take liberties with words since I > have to do this all on the fly. A lot of times I take broad concepts > and ideas and just slap the easiest terminology that I got in my mind > at that second. So, if "political censorship" was offensive then I > appoligize if this offended any person. I merely was calling > attention to an action that was being taken and I was attempting to > define this action better. As for the rest of your reply to me well, > I'm sorry no time, gotta go. > > toodles, > colette > > #74622 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 6:39 am Subject: Conditions, Ch 8, no 5. nilovg Dear friends, Akusala can also be a natural decisive support-condition for kusala. Because of aversion towards akusala vipåka or attachment to kusala vipåka one may perform good deeds. One may regret the akusala one performed in the past and then, in order to counteract it, one performs kusala. We read in the “Patthåna” (same section, § 423, V): After having killed, (one) offers the offering, undertakes the precept, fulfils the duty of observance, develops jhåna, develops insight, develops Path, develops superknowledge, develops attainment, to counteract it. The same is said with regard to other kinds of evil deeds, they can be a natural decisive support-condition for kusala. Kamma is also a natural decisive support-condition for the vipåka it produces. We performed many kinds of kamma also in past lives, but we do not know which kamma will produce result at a particular moment. When there is at this moment vipåkacitta which experiences a pleasant or an unpleasant object through one of the senses we know that kamma is a cogent reason, a decisive support-condition for the result. We are born in the human plane and therefore we know that kusala kamma has produced the paìisandhi-citta. Among the innumerable deeds done in the past that particular kamma has been a powerful inducement, a natural decisive support-condition for the paìisandhi-citta. Kamma has by its own nature the power to cause the arising of the appropriate result, even after countless lives, it is natural decisive support-condition for that result. It does not have to depend on decisive support-condition of object or on proximate decisive support-condition to produce its result. As we have seen, kusala kamma and akusala kamma performed in the past are also a natural decisive support-condition for kusala kamma and akusala kamma at the present time. Evenso by the performing of good or evil deeds now we accumulate the tendency to doing similar deeds later on, thus, such actions are natural decisive support-condition for future deeds. The natural decisive support-condition is very wide, it comprises also vipåka which conditions akusala citta or kusala citta, or vipåka which conditions vipåka. Vipåka conditions kusala citta when one, for example, suffers bodily pain and is reminded by it that life is short and that one therefore should not delay the development of right understanding. Vipåka conditions akusala citta when one has aversion towards pain. Body-consciousness which is kusala vipåka can condition body-consciousness which is akusala vipåka by natural decisive support-condition. When it is hot outside one may use air- conditioning and this may cause bodily well-being. But then the temperature inside may become too cold and one suffers bodily discomfort or catches a cold. Akusala vipåka can condition kusala vipåka by natural decisive support-condition. When we are sick we may have to follow a painful therapy in order to get cured and then there is akusala vipåka through the bodysense, but as a result there will be bodily well-being again. ******* Nina. #74623 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 6:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Response to E-card from Bangkok 3 (3) nilovg Hi Howard, thank you for your comments. We both see the training differently, as you know. The object of pa~n~naa that is of the level of direct experience is the same as the object of pa~n~naa of the level of pariyatti. It is a matter of pa~n~naa that grows. I believe that jhaana has quite a different object, it does not have anything to do with the present reality. But I know that you see jhana as a help to understand more clearly. My objection is: understand what? We have to consider the object in the case of vipassana and in the case of samatha. Now right concentration as a factor of the eightfold Path has a function, but it arises already as right understanding of the eightfold Path develops. It has as object when it is mundane a nama or a rupa, nothing else. I think of Sukin's post on pariyatti: < there is a lower level of panna which understands this intellectually and with some confidence. At such beginning level, there is already a planting the seed of understanding which relates to the development of satipatthana. One knows that it is *this* that needs to be understood through direct experience. The understanding becomes firmer as such kind of study happens more and more. And along the way when patipatti also arises, then this can reach the level of sacca ñana. The theory has been verified through experience to the extent that one is firm about the object to be studied and that the practice is all about this very moment, and not some other time, place or activity.> Nina. Op 25-jul-2007, om 15:10 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > It is incomparably better to > start to experience it, and that does not follow merely from the > knowing about > it and understanding of it, but from training the mind. #74624 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 3:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions, Ch 8, no 5. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 7/25/07 9:42:24 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Akusala can also be a natural decisive support-condition for kusala. > Because of aversion towards akusala vipåka or attachment to kusala > vipåka one may perform good deeds. One may regret the akusala one > performed in the past and then, in order to counteract it, one > performs kusala. =========================== Nina, I was so pleased to see this. After your previous post on kusala at times serving as support for akusala, I was going to raise exactly the matter that you address here, but anticipating some objections (along the lines of "No, the remorse is kusala") I decided not to write. I'm gladdened by what you wrote here. With metta, Howard #74625 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 3:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Response to E-card from Bangkok 3 (3) upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 7/25/07 9:56:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > thank you for your comments. > We both see the training differently, as you know. The object of > pa~n~naa that is of the level of direct experience is the same as the > object of pa~n~naa of the level of pariyatti. > It is a matter of pa~n~naa that grows. I believe that jhaana has > quite a different object, it does not have anything to do with the > present reality. > ---------------------------------------- Howard: I wasn't addressing being in an absorptive state, Nina. But whatever is the current state, the present reality is whatever is then present. ------------------------------------------ But I know that you see jhana as a help to > > understand more clearly. My objection is: understand what? We have to > consider the object in the case of vipassana and in the case of > samatha. > ----------------------------------------- Howard: I do not believe that the jhanas taught be the Buddha are the same as the absorptive states of his teachers. In the Anupada Sutta and in the sutta describing the Buddha's awakening from the base of the 4th jhana, I think this becomes clear. In any case, the primary role of the jhanas is in cultivating the mind. A cultivated mind can awaken at any time, because it is prepared and requires only the right prompting conditions. --------------------------------------- Now right concentration as a factor of the eightfold Path > > has a function, but it arises already as right understanding of the > eightfold Path develops. It has as object when it is mundane a nama > or a rupa, nothing else. > I think of Sukin's post on pariyatti: panna which understands this intellectually and with some confidence. > At such beginning level, there is already a > planting the seed of understanding which relates to the development > of satipatthana. One knows that it is *this* that needs to be > understood through direct experience. > > The understanding becomes firmer as such kind of study happens more > and more. And along the way when patipatti also arises, then this can > reach the level of sacca ñana. The theory has been verified through > experience to the extent that one is firm about the object to be studied > and that the practice is all about this very moment, and not some other > time, place or activity.> > Nina. > > ======================== With metta, Howard #74626 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 7:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Insects? Robots? Re-evaluating Walking Meditation buddhatrue Hi Charles, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Charles DaCosta" wrote: > > Hi buddhatrue, > > > > Thanks for the points on walking med. I had forgotten about it and it as a > practice. > > Thank you for your kind post. I always hope that my posts may be of benefit to someone, and I am glad that my post about walking meditation reminded you again of the practice. Sometimes, when we get stuck, lethargic, or stagnated in our sitting meditation, walking meditation may be just the thing to add energy or a new perspective! Best wishes with your continued practice! Metta, James #74627 From: "nidive" Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 7:54 am Subject: Re: Conditions, Ch 8, no 5. nidive Hi Nina, > Akusala can also be a natural decisive support-condition for > kusala. Because of aversion towards akusala vipåka or attachment > to kusala vipåka one may perform good deeds. One may regret the > akusala one performed in the past and then, in order to > counteract it, one performs kusala. Sometimes I wonder about the use of the words kusala and akusala. The aim of the Noble Eightfold Path is to abandon both bright kamma and dark kamma. So, I think kiriya citta is superior to kusala citta. Why be intent on merit making? It's still suffering. Swee Boon #74628 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 4:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Conditions, Ch 8, no 5. upasaka_howard Hi, Swee Boon (and Nina) - In a message dated 7/25/07 10:55:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time, nidive@... writes: > Hi Nina, > > >Akusala can also be a natural decisive support-condition for > >kusala. Because of aversion towards akusala vipåka or attachment > >to kusala vipåka one may perform good deeds. One may regret the > >akusala one performed in the past and then, in order to > >counteract it, one performs kusala. > > Sometimes I wonder about the use of the words kusala and akusala. > > The aim of the Noble Eightfold Path is to abandon both bright kamma > and dark kamma. > > So, I think kiriya citta is superior to kusala citta. Why be intent > on merit making? It's still suffering. > > Swee Boon > ========================= If I may butt in with my perspective: The wholesome states we cultivate in following the Buddha are not, IMO, a matter of "merit" but of mental development leading by way of conditionality to calm, relinquishment, wisdom, and eventual awakening. Dukkha isn't gone until the very end, when all sense of self is gone, but it is now, in the midst of unsatisfactoriness, that the groundwork must be done, and at this stage, bright kamma is better than dark and eventually leads to its own demise. With metta, Howard #74629 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 8:54 am Subject: e-card from America buddhatrue Hi All, Sarah had suggested that I post an update about my trip to America so I guess I will. Returning to America after two years reminds me of all the reasons I left in the first place. For example, watching television, I am bombarded with slick advertising touting contrasting options. Commercials for "super sized" fast food are followed by commercials for "guaranteed" diet pills; commercials for huge limit credit cards are followed by commericals for debt consolidation services; commercials for health foods are followed by commercials for prescription medicines. It's maddening and confusing- and everyone wants a piece of the pie. Since I left, there are new malls, bigger grocery stores, and hundreds of clothing outlets. It's all about money, money, money! I will be happy to get back to Taiwan, which isn't quite so consumer crazy. I have only had the opportunity to visit my Buddhist temple, Wat Promkunaram, one time so far. The temple is very far from my parent's home, gas is outrageously expensive nowadays, and I have been busy exposing Sebastian to American culture (shopping malls and hypermarts). When I visited the temple the abbott, Winai Booncham, happily greeted me. He told me that he had been trying to call me but he found out that I moved. I'm sure that I told him that I was moving but I guess he forgot. Anyway, it was nice to see the temple again and to sit in meditation again in the Buddha Hall. Sebastian was car sick from the long drive over rough roads so I didn't get to stay too long. I picked up a little booklet in English (the only one in English) called "An Introduction to Buddhism" by Ven. H. Saddhatissa. I was impressed by its contents because it is a very serious and thorough overview of Buddhism. Its contents are: Buddhism, The Buddha, His Teaching, The Middle Way, The Threefold Training, Kamma, Rebirth, The Three Characteristics, Dependent Origination, Nibbana. Of all of my years of association with Wat Promkunaram, I have never known them to offer such a heavy overview of the Buddha's teaching in the free literature. Most of the pamplets have been light and palatable- Jataka stories, breathing meditation guides, etc. I can't help but think that an increasingly superficial and consumer oriented society is calling for a deeper and more aggressive approach from the Buddhist Sangha. Something to consider (??). I wake up early most mornings, before my parents and Sebastian, so I have some time to meditate each day. It is good to keep myself grounded in the Buddha's teaching (to a limited extent) when so many distractions of greed and craving surround and bombard me throughout the day. But, if I had to stay in America for an extended time, I'm sure the struggle would become more and more difficult, in not impossible. As the Vism. states, location is very important to Buddhist practice, and America is definitely not the right location for me! Oh well, only a few more weeks to go. Metta, James #74630 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 12:07 pm Subject: Q. re Conditions Ch 8, no 5. nilovg Hi Swee Boon and Howard, Howard addressed this point already. Actually I simply describe different conditions, not giving advices about what is superior. Pakatupanissaya paccaya is very wide, it covers a big area. Besides this condition other conditions also operate. This helps us to understand anattaness. Nina. #74631 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 12:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] e-card from America nilovg Hi James, thank you for your e-card, nice to hear from you. True, dwelling place is natural strong dependence-condition for kusala citta or akusala citta. Someone wrote that in the Buddha's time there were less distractions, but I would say that people in the past and people today have lobha, dosa and moha. If the distraction is not from outside it will be from within. People in the past (see Sisters) were able to follow the Buddha's Path and so can we when there are the right conditions: association with the right friend, listening, considering and the application of the Dhamma. How were your parents, they must have been glad to see you. Nina. Op 25-jul-2007, om 17:54 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > As the Vism. states, location is very important to > Buddhist practice, and America is definitely not the right location > for me! Oh well, only a few more weeks to go. #74632 From: TGrand458@... Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 9:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) TGrand458@... Hi Jon In a message dated 7/25/2007 5:07:08 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: I wonder if the Buddha was really talking about the deconstruction of conventional objects into elements and aggregates. That seems to me to be an exercise in mental gymnastics (to use a term employed by Phil recently). ................................. NEW TG: Seems to me the Buddha's "chariot" and "cow" deconstructions are apt examples of deconstructing what we might consider "conventional things" into elements. If you're enlightened, or ever mindful without interruption, it WOULD be unnecessary mental gymnastics. If not, then its to the "mental gym" for the rest of us. Unavoidable. ........................................ Likewise the further reducing of elements into altering, afflicting, selfless, conditioned "happenings"selfless, conditioned "happenings" Turning away from the elements by seeing them as afflicting and hollow is > the prescription of the Buddha. Not focusing toward them and seeing them as > ultimate realities with their own characteristics. I can only give credence to > the latter approach as a remedial practice for beginners who are trying to > overcome the idea of "person." Other than that, It seems like a bizarre > twisting of what the Suttas actually say. To my understanding, it is only when elements are seen as they truly are -- as anicca, dukkha and anatta -- that there can be dispassion towards (turning away from) them. .......................................... NEW TG: I like that. Stick to that and I wouldn't see a problem. I have seen Sarah, on the other hand, say that seeing things as they really are means to -- see elements as ultimate realities. That is another thing altogether! ......................................... > I know some of you don't like to think the Suttas actually mean what they > actually say. But I believe the Buddha actually did mean what he actually > said. The Buddha analyzed and commented on his own teachings extensively in the > Suttas and I think he did a pretty good job. ;-) I agree with this ;-)) > I don't think the Buddha "fuzzed it up" because he didn't clearly say > exactly what he wanted to say. But I do think the clearest expression that the > Buddha can make has a "fuzzy element" to those minds that want something more > tangible to hold onto. By that I mean...if all conditions are dependent and > based on something else, there is nothing of "own characteristic" that can be > pinned down as an "ultimate reality." What I have said above does not require the taking of a position on the "own characteristic" issue, which I see as something of a distraction to this discussion ;-)) > The Middle Way excludes both existence or non-existence. The Midd views of > the same. Yes, agreed. Jon ................................................. NEW TG: I'll be gone about 2 weeks. Take care. TG OUT #74633 From: "colette" Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 7:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Church Lady is among us, AND SHE IS WRONG ksheri3 Good Morning Howard, According to Ven.Dr.W.Rahula from Gems of Buddhist Wisdom: "The terms Hinayana (Small Vehicle)..." not, as you say "lowly way". Good, Lets look at your fixation: Lowly Way, doesn't the concept of a lower way of doing things come from the clinging to a VALUE STRUCTURE? Maybe the clinging tendency stems from the seeds (bija) planted during the internalization of the iconography of IDOLATRY, or maybe of GREED and AVARICE? Do we not have, then, as Gene Rodenbarry put it in one of his Star Trek shows during the 1960s, the difference between the "Stratos dwellers" and the "trogledytes"? <....> Then you go on to suggest the Shravakayana which happens to be "Vehicle of hearers[i.e.disciples]". This school of buddhism is far from Theravadan since the operation of the Shravakayana is to satisfy the goals of the Sravakabuddha through the possession of liberation BY THE MEANS OF "listening to the teachings (or lineage) of a Bodhisattva Buddha. Hinayana in the concept of a "lesser vehicle" is sometimes transposed for the Sravakayana as a euphemism but this often included the addition of the Pratyekayana with the Sravakayana, which opens a another can of worms that I don't have time to deal with. tooodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Colette - > > Thank you for the following friendly post - it is much appreciated. > BTW, the term 'hinayana' means "lowly way". Sometimes it even carries > the sense of "despicable". These days very many Mahayanists realize that it is > a poor term to use, and they may substitute 'Shravakayana' to refer to > original Buddhism (all the early schools) or just Theravada if that is what is > explicitly intended. <...> #74634 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 5:03 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What is the wrong view? (References from the MN anthology) lbidd2 Hi Jon, Are you saying right path leads to liberation; wrong path leads away from liberation; wrong view is wrong path; but right view may or may not be right path? Is right view that is not right path in a kind of limbo between right path and wrong path? That might work, but I still think all kusala cittas lead to liberation in one way or another. Larry #74635 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 7:24 pm Subject: Re: What is the wrong view? (References from the MN anthology) indriyabala Hi Jon, - Larry said the mundane right view as defined in MN 117 was "basically faith" and I commented: " ..the understanding that "there is this world and the other world; ..." etc. is built upon faith". Jon: To my understanding, what is being referred to here is something that is directly realised, not something that is built on faith. Otherwise it would not be 'right view', which is a synonym for 'panna'. T: How is it directly realized and why is it not built on faith? .............. > T: But I like the following clear-cut definition of right view better. "Herein, what is right view(samma ditthi)? It is knowledge (~naana) of sufferring, knowledge of the origin of suffering, knowledge of the cessation of suffering, knowledge of the way leading to the cessation of suffering. This is what is called right view." [Patisambhidamagga, I 241] Jon: Thanks for the quote from the Patisambhidamagga. This I think is right view as a factor of the path, and not the kind of right view referred to in M.117.7 as "right view that is affected by the taints, partaking of merit, ripening on the side of attachment". Is that how you would see it? T: Yes, I also think the two kinds of right view above are different: the mundane right view in MN 117 is below the Sotapanna's right view of the four noble truths. Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Tep (and Larry) > > I agree with you on the distinction between 'faith' and 'right > view'. > #74636 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 11:58 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Response to E-card from Bangkok 3 (1) - Vipallaasas sarahprocter... Dear Han, all, I'm really appreciating your sincere reflections on the topics raised. --- han tun wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > In Vipassanaa Dipani, Ledi Sayadaw described the three > vipallaasas with three similes. > > (1) Sa~n~naa-vipallaasa is like a wild deer which > takes a ‘straw-man’ for a real man and runs away. > > (2) Citta-vipallaasa is like a magician who makes > lumps of earth to appear as lumps of gold and silver > in the eyes of the audience. > > (3) Ditthi-vipallaasa is like a man who has lost his > way in the forest. Under the influence of > ditthi-vipallaasa he takes the wrong road for the > right road, and takes the town or village and the > buildings created by the evil demons as the delightful > mansions as those of devas and celestial beings. Here, > the right road connotes the mundane right view and > supramundane right view. > ------------------- ... S: I've sen these metaphors before for the vipallaasas. I think they're good, but we can only take them so far. I don't remember whether they are in the Pali texts anywhere or whether Ledi Sayadaw introduced them. Do you (or anyone) know? I think it's important to remember that sanna and citta vipallasas arise with all akusala cittas, so some kinds can be very subtle, only eradicated at the stage of arahant, i.e experiencing some dhammas which are dukkha as sukkha. .... > - Looking at the three vipallaasas, I thought the > example of a box of biscuits resembles the simile of > sa~n~naa-vipallaasa. The straw-man is made of straw > but the wild deer thinks it is a real man. Even so, > the box of biscuits is made of pathavi element and > other elements, but a person wrongly takes it as a box > of biscuits. Furthermore, the wild deer must have seen > a man before, so it runs away when it takes a > straw-man as a real man. Even so, the person must have > seen the box of biscuits before. If he has not seen it > before, he may not know that it is a box of biscuits. > Thus, the simile of the wild deer fits in nicely with > the example of a box of biscuits. .... S: During our usual daily activities, we look at, pick up and open the box of biscuits, just remembering it to be such with sanna vipallasa and citta vipallasa. A child or animal may do the same, without any 'view' about it being an 'entity' or 'something'. There's just lobha and moha at work, although there is always the underlying tendency of atta that hasn't been eradicated. Sometimes, however, we actually have the idea of the biscuits as existing as something, as atta. In the same way, we sometimes have the idea of the pillow existing or of Han or Sarah existing. At such times, in addition to the sanna and citta vipallasa, there's also ditthi vipallasa, taking the impermenant for permanent and the anatta for atta. Of course, only panna can know (and has to know)such ditthi when it arises. ... > - Therefore, I thought the examples of inanimate > objects given at the Foundation meeting are the case > of sa~n~naa-vipallaasa rather than attavaadupaadaana. > But I was not sure. That’s why I was trying to get > your personal opinion on this aspect at the meeting at > the Foundation on 4 July. .... S: The examples given at the Foundation were referring to more than just sanna vipallasa. They were referring to ditthi vipallasa, when we have the idea of such objects as existing. Attavadupadana. ... > - But then, I have noted that you have already given > your opinion that attavaadupaadana falls under > ditthi-vipallaasa, the taking of what is anatta for > atta. ... Yes, ditthi vipallasa includes the perverted views of taking of what is anicca for nicca, the taking of what is anatta for atta, the taking of what is dukkha for sukkha and the taking of the asubha for subha. With the eradication of the wrong view of atta, the other kinds of ditthi vipallasa are also eradicated (at sotapanna). ... > - Therefore, I think what I thought was wrong and we > can close the case. ... S: You always have good reasons for your comments, Han. You also help me to reflect on these deep topics further. It doesn't matter in the least who is right and who is wrong, but it's helpful to keep studying and reflecting together. I like our team-work and found it very useful to have you at my side at the Foundation. Always enjoyable to meet up with you beforehand as well. Metta, Sarah =========== #74637 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 1:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions, Ch 8, no 5. kenhowardau Hi Howard (and Nina), ------ H: > Nina, I was so pleased to see this. After your previous post on kusala at times serving as support for akusala, I was going to raise exactly the matter that you address here, but anticipating some objections (along the lines of "No, the remorse is kusala") I decided not to write. I'm gladdened by what you wrote here. ------ This is a difficult one! :-) We have discussed it before with reference to one of the recorded talks. If I remember correctly, K Sujin was asked about giving alms when there was sure to be attachment and conceit involved. She, of course, said that we should continue to give regardless. She also explained that the practice would be a condition for genuine dana in the future. My grasp of the issues is so weak that I can't even parrot them. :-) I can see that attachment to kusala is preferable to aversion to kusala. And I can see that aversion to serious akusala is a comparatively minor form of akusala. Apart from that, I am pretty much in the dark. In any case, I think you will agree that desire for kusala (including desire for enlightenment) is still akusala. And I wonder if you will agree that the desire to take a concept (pannatti) as the object of satipatthana involves quite a serious form of akusala. (Namely, wrong view.) I doubt very much that NDS could condition genuine satipatthana from the desire for false satipatthana. Perhaps, on the other hand, the desire for genuine satipatthana (to happen by conditions) is not such a bad thing. I don't know. I look forward to further discussion. Ken H #74638 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 1:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions, Ch 8, no 5. nilovg Hi Ken (and Howard), We should take into consideration that while giving, there are countless different cittas, kusala cittas and akusala cittas. This does not prevent us from good deeds. But there is only dana at the moments of kusala. Kusala can be accumulated little by little. Nina. Op 26-jul-2007, om 10:05 heeft kenhowardau het volgende geschreven: > If I remember correctly, K > Sujin was asked about giving alms when there was sure to be > attachment and conceit involved. She, of course, said that we should > continue to give regardless. She also explained that the practice > would be a condition for genuine dana in the future. #74639 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 2:39 am Subject: Kaeng Krachan again 1. nilovg Dear friends, During our trip I listened again to the talks in Kaeng Krachan, and I found that I listened differently. I could appreciate more the way Kh Sujin was leading us to the present moment. Lodewijk was not satisfied with the way she answered his questions and therefore we went over them again. I quote and add my reflections now, marking them with N. He asked what sati is. ----------- L: What is sati, different from thinking of realities? I know that there is hardness, but what is awareness of it? There is seeing and touching, but this is not sati. Kh S: It is pa~n~naa that knows that there is no sati at that moment. One is very truthful when one realizes that there is no sati at the moment there is no sati. --------- N: It is encouraging to learn that there is abeginning of pa~n~naa when it is known that there is no sati. It is also truthful to realize this. This is better than talking oneself into it that there is sati while there is not ---------- Kh S: One can see attachment to wanting to have sati, trying so hard, but this does not work, there is no pa~n~naa. Leave it to conditions. Also awareness is conditioned, it has to be understood as not self. One has to be patient. Pa~n~naa can understand reality right now. It arises and falls away now but it is not known. -------- N: Lodewijk expected a definition of sati but this does not work. One can only know it when it arises but by trying to have it, one will not know it. Kh Sujin will help people to see sati as a conditioned dhamma that cannot be controlled. That is very essential. ------- Kh S: Anything that appears has its own characteristic. No one can condition its arising. This is a level of understanding. ------ N: this is very basic, and necessary to understand sati as a conditioned dhamma. Kh Sujin will return to the basics before she explains more about sati. It is not useful to only understand sati in a theoretical way. ------- Kh S: Seeing, hearing, thinking, they all are different. We have to begin to understand realities, they have their own characteristics. As soon as sound appears, there is already attachment or aversion. ------ L: How do I know when there is sati? ------- Kh S: When there is more understanding about sati because of hearing about it and considering what one hears. No one can condition its arising. All dhammas are anattaa. At this moment of touching there is no sati. When sati arises the hardness is the same but there is awareness of it. Usually we touch without sati, but when sati arises there is a slight difference. The moment of sati does not last, but when there is sati the characteristic of hardness appears. ****** Nina. #74640 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 3:14 am Subject: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) jonoabb Hi TG --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@... wrote: > > Hi Jon > > In a message dated 7/25/2007 5:07:08 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, > jonabbott@... writes: > > I wonder if the Buddha was really talking about the deconstruction of > conventional objects into elements and aggregates. That seems to me > to be an exercise in mental gymnastics (to use a term employed by > Phil recently). > ................................. > > NEW TG: Seems to me the Buddha's "chariot" and "cow" deconstructions are > apt examples of deconstructing what we might consider "conventional things" > into elements. Just analysis into parts, I think, to illustrate the lack of an essential "chariot-ness" or "cow-ness". > If you're enlightened, or ever mindful without interruption, it WOULD be > unnecessary mental gymnastics. If not, then its to the "mental gym" for the > rest of us. Unavoidable. That is but one possible interpretation of the texts: the mental "breaking down" of what is currently being observed (i.e., thought of). The problem with that approach, as I see it, is that concepts (what is being observed, thought of) do not break down inot elements; they break down into other concepts. > ........................................ > Likewise the further reducing of elements into altering, afflicting, > selfless, conditioned "happenings"selfless, conditioned "happenings" "thinking about" rather than directly experiencing. > ............................................ > > NEW TG: Sure it is. Without organizing thoughts, mindfulness is as > ignorant as a new born baby. Mindfulness/insight requires the mind to know > something about the nature of what is occurring...not just base awareness of > occurrence. The knowledge of conditioned, impermanent, afflicting, nonself; does not > arise without doing preliminary work of thinking. But I think the object of this thinking is concepts, not elements. > Surely I explained all this in my last post and about how such preliminary > work can set the stage for direct insight to occur...if the effort is made. > ............................................... Yes, you explained it very clearly. But this explanation is an inference to be drawn from the suttas rather than something directly stated. So there is room for me (and the commentaries) to disagree ;-)) > To my understanding, what the Buddha spoke of was not "conventional > objects as elements" but "elements as elements". > > Furthermore, it is elements themselves that exhibit the various > characteristics of which you speak, and it is by a deeper > understanding of elements that these characteristics become apparent. > ................................................ > > NEW TG: Elements are not entities. "They" have nothing "of their own." I know you are fond of running this line, but it is a distraction to the present discussion ;-)) > The Buddha has said that in the case of -- feeling, perception, mental > formations, and consciousness...that these things are not separatable...but are only > separated in his teaching as a MEANS OF ANALYSIS. The only insight issue > that detaches the mind are conditionality with conditionality nature of -- > impermanence, affliction, and nonself. Whether or not a mind becomes detached by > seeing this in corpses, or elements, is irrelevant. > .............................................. If corpses then why not, say, computers? The list would be endless. I think the key must be elements, to be the object of panna. > To my understanding, it is only when elements are seen as they truly > are -- as anicca, dukkha and anatta -- that there can be dispassion > towards (turning away from) them. > .......................................... > > NEW TG: I like that. Stick to that and I wouldn't see a problem. > > I have seen Sarah, on the other hand, say that seeing things as they really > are means to -- see elements as ultimate realities. That is another thing > altogether! Elements to be seen as elements; that's all. > NEW TG: I'll be gone about 2 weeks. Take care. Thanks for letting us all know. Looking forward to seeing you back then. Jon #74641 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 4:27 am Subject: [dsg] Re: What is the wrong view? (References from the MN anthology) jonoabb Hi Larry --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@... wrote: > > Hi Jon, > > Are you saying right path leads to liberation; Yes. > wrong path leads away from liberation; Yes. > wrong view is wrong path; Wrong view about the path would be wrong path. > but right view may or may not be right path? Is right view that is not right path in a kind of limbo > between right path and wrong path? I can only say what I understand to be the case; I don't have any quotes from the texts directly on the point. The description of mundane right view in M.117 does not appear to include any refernce to satipatthana. I believe that satipatthana would fall under the 'supramundane right view' also described in M.117, although this is a matter of interpretation/inference. The commentary as quoted by BB in his translation MLDB does not really make clear how satipatthana is to be treated as regards the two-fold classification in the sutta. > That might work, but I still think all kusala cittas lead to liberation > in one way or another. Well, it's true that all kusala states support the development of insight. However, see the quote from the Expositor at the end of this post. The states "leading to accumulatikon" include certain kusala states. Consider this aspect: Persons who have never heard the teachings can develop kusala; but are they progressing towards liberation? Jon M. 117.7 "And what, bhikkhus, is right view that is affected by the taints, partaking of merit, ripening on the side of attachment? 'There is what is given and what is offered and what is sacrificed, there is fruit and result of good and bad actions; there is this world and the other world...' This is right view affected by taints, partaking of merit, ripening on the side of attachment." from the Expositor: << In the triplet of 'leading to accumulation,' 'accumulation' means 'that which is accumulated by kamma and corruptions. It is a name for the processes of rebirth and decease. 'Leading to accumulation' are 'those causes which by being accomplished go to, or lead a man, in whom they arise, to that round of rebirth.' It is a name for co- intoxicant moral or immoral states. Nibbaana being free from 'cumulation,' which is another word for 'accumulation,' is called 'dispersion'. 'Leading to dispersion' is 'going towards that dispersion which he has made his object.' It is a name for the Ariyan Paths. Or, 'leading to accumulation' are 'those states which go about severally arranging (births and deaths in) a round of destiny like a bricklayer who arranges bricks, layer by layer, in a wall.' 'Leading to dispersion' are those states which go about destroying that very round, like a man who continually removes the bricks as they are laid by the mason. The third term is spoken by way of rejecting both. >> #74642 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 4:42 am Subject: Re: What is the wrong view? (References from the MN anthology) jonoabb Hi Tep --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Hi Jon, - > > Larry said the mundane right view as defined in MN 117 was "basically > faith" and I commented: " ..the understanding that "there is this > world and the other world; ..." etc. is built upon faith". > > Jon: To my understanding, what is being referred to here is something > that is directly realised, not something that is built on faith. > Otherwise it would not be 'right view', which is a synonym > for 'panna'. > > T: How is it directly realized and why is it not built on faith? > .............. I don't have access to the commentary, so I am only guessing ;-)) I would guess that "this world and the other world" is a refernce to rebirth following upon death. This would be realised by, among other things, the realisation of Dependent Origination, which states in part that only by the eradication of ignorance is future becoming overcome. Just my thoughts. How does it sound? Jon #74643 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 1:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions, Ch 8, no 5. upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 7/26/07 4:05:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowa@... writes: > Hi Howard (and Nina), > > ------ > H: > Nina, I was so pleased to see this. After your previous post on > kusala at times serving as support for akusala, I was going to raise > exactly the matter that you address here, but anticipating some > objections (along the lines of "No, the remorse is kusala") I decided > not to write. I'm gladdened by what you wrote here. > ------ > > This is a difficult one! :-) We have discussed it before with > reference to one of the recorded talks. If I remember correctly, K > Sujin was asked about giving alms when there was sure to be > attachment and conceit involved. She, of course, said that we should > continue to give regardless. She also explained that the practice > would be a condition for genuine dana in the future. > > My grasp of the issues is so weak that I can't even parrot them. :-) > I can see that attachment to kusala is preferable to aversion to > kusala. And I can see that aversion to serious akusala is a > comparatively minor form of akusala. Apart from that, I am pretty > much in the dark. > > In any case, I think you will agree that desire for kusala > (including desire for enlightenment) is still akusala. > ------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, all desire that is not impersonal chanda but is a form of tanha, infected by sense of self, is unwholesome to some degree. Yet it may lead to truly good things, even including awakening, in case it spurs useful actions (such as studying the Dhamma). The bottom line is that we should do the best we can. We cannot expect perfection, because we are imperfect. (All "we's" that I write are to be understood to be in quotes.) -------------------------------------------- And I wonder > > if you will agree that the desire to take a concept (pannatti) as > the object of satipatthana involves quite a serious form of akusala. ------------------------------------------- Howard: It is not unwholesome to teach meditation on concept, else the Buddha in teaching meditation on kasinas was spreading unwholesome practice. O fourse, if, in this usage, you are taking 'satipatthana' to indicate "meditative attention leading to insight", so long as the meditation object remains concept, it cannot directly lead to insight and it is not satipatthana, IMO. However, it can condition the mind to make meditation-leading-to-insight more easily possible. Moreover, there are kusala concepts, e.g., the Buddha for example (!) and the kasinas and metta-approached-contemplatively. It is a mistake to condemn meditation on concept as unwholesome, I believe.) ------------------------------------- > (Namely, wrong view.) > ----------------------------------- Howard: To the extent that wrong view is present, and it is often present for us, the state is unwholesome to a degree ------------------------------------- I doubt very much that NDS could condition > > genuine satipatthana from the desire for false satipatthana. Perhaps, > on the other hand, the desire for genuine satipatthana (to happen by > conditions) is not such a bad thing. I don't know. I look forward to > further discussion. > ------------------------------------- Howard: It seems to me that the desire for what is good an wholesome is generally helpful, but there is a multitude of other factors that determine this. Excuse me, but what is NDS? ---------------------------------------- > > Ken H > ==================== With metta, Howard #74644 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 1:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions, Ch 8, no 5. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Ken) - In a message dated 7/26/07 5:01:42 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Ken (and Howard), > We should take into consideration that while giving, there are > countless different cittas, kusala cittas and akusala cittas. This > does not prevent us from good deeds. But there is only dana at the > moments of kusala. Kusala can be accumulated little by little. > Nina. ==================== I think the answer is a good one. The mind changes from moment to moment. With metta, Howard #74645 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 6:58 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (63) nichiconn Dear Friends, 10. Ekaadasakanipaato 1. Kisaagotamiitheriigaathaava.n.nanaa part 15 txt: "Ku.napa.m cha.d.dayitvaana, upesi.m lokanaayaka.m; duuratova mama.m disvaa, avoca madhurassaro. "Yo ca vassasata.m jiive, apassa.m udayabbaya.m; ekaaha.m jiivita.m seyyo, passato udayabbaya.m. "Na gaamadhammo nigamassa dhammo, na caapiya.m ekakulassa dhammo; sabbassa lokassa sadevakassa, eseva dhammo yadida.m aniccataa. "Saaha.m sutvaanimaa gaathaa, dhammacakkhu.m visodhayi.m; tato vi~n~naatasaddhammaa, pabbaji.m anagaariya.m. "Tathaa pabbajitaa santii, yu~njantii jinasaasane; na cireneva kaalena, arahattamapaapu.ni.m. Pruitt: I threw away the corpse and went to the Leader of the World. Seeing me a long way off, he said in a sweet voice: "Whoever lives a hundred years not seeing arising and passing away, it is better to live one day seeing arising and passing away.* "This is not the doctrine of a village, the doctrine of a town, nor the doctrine of a family. This is the Doctrine for the whole world of [men] and devas: all of this is impermanent."** Having heard these verses, I purified the eye of the Doctrine. Then, knowing the true Doctrine, I went forth to the homeless state. Then having gone forth, I applied myself to the teaching of the Conqueror, and in a very short time I attained Arahatship. *Dhp 113. Note that this is the verse spoken by the Buddha in Pa.taacaaraa's story. {Sisters 47} **Dhp 114 is given in Kisaa-Gotami's story also (p.223). In the story given abov, Kisaa-Gotamii says this verse before returning to the Buddha. txt: "Iddhiisu ca vasii homi, dibbaaya sotadhaatuyaa; paracittaani jaanaami, satthusaasanakaarikaa. "Pubbenivaasa.m jaanaami, dibbacakkhu visodhita.m; khepetvaa aasave sabbe, visuddhaasi.m sunimmalaa. "Parici.n.no mayaa satthaa, kata.m buddhassa saasana.m; ohito garuko bhaaro, bhavanetti samuuhataa. "Yassatthaaya pabbajitaa, agaarasmaanagaariya.m; so me attho anuppatto, sabbasa.myojanakkhayo. "Atthadhammaniruttiisu, pa.tibhaane tatheva ca; ~naa.na.m me vimala.m suddha.m, buddhase.t.thassa vaahasaa. Pruitt: I have mastery of the supernormal powers. By means of the divine ear, I know the thoughts of others. I comply with the teaching of the Teacher; I know my previous lives; my divine eye has purified. Having destroyed all the taints, I am pure, completely freed of impurity. I have attended on the Teacher. I have done the Buddha's teaching. I have put down the heavy burden; everything that leads to renewed existence has been rooted out. The aim for which one goes forth from the home to the homeless state, that aim has been attained by me - all bonds are destroyed. And I [possess] the knowledge of the comprehension of meaning, states, and language of the spotless, pure [teaching] thanks to the Best of Buddhas. txt: "Sa"nkaarakuu.taa aahitvaa, susaanaa rathiyaapi ca; tato sa"nghaa.tika.m katvaa, luukha.m dhaaremi ciivara.m. "Jino tasmi.m gu.ne tu.t.tho, luukhaciivaradhaara.ne; thapesi etadaggamhi, parisaasu vinaayako. "Kilesaa jhaapitaa mayha.m {, bhavaa sabbe samuuhataa; naagiiva bandhana.m chetvaa, viharaami anaasavaa. "Svaagata.m vata me aasi, buddhase.t.thassa santike; tisso vijjaa anuppattaa, kata.m buddhassa saasana.m. "Pa.tisambhidaa catasso, vimokkhaapi ca a.t.thime; cha.labhi~n~naa sacchikataa,} kata.m buddhassa saasanan"ti. Kisaagotamiitheriigaathaava.n.nanaa ni.t.thitaa. Ekaadasanipaatava.n.nanaa ni.t.thitaa. Pruitt: I brought [cloth] from a rubbish heap, from a cemetary, and from a road. Then I made an outer robe and wore that rough garment. The Conqueror was pleased with that good quality, the wearing of rough robes, and the Leader placed me as foremost in the assembly. My depravities are burnt out, {all [future] births are completely destroyed. Having severed my bonds like an elephant, I live without taints. Welcome indeed was the presence of the Best of Buddhas to me. I have attained the three true knowledges. I have done the Buddha's teaching. The four discriminations and also the eight liberations are mine. I have realized the six direct knowledges.} I have done the Buddha's teaching. Here ends the commentary on the verses of Theri Kisaa-Gotamii. Here ends the commentary on the section of eleven [verses]. ============================= *CAF Rhys Davids: Psalms of the Sisters, with the Chronicle from the Commentary by Dhammapaala entitled 'The Elucidation of the Highest Meaning'. PTS 1909 @ http://digital.library.upenn.edu/women/davids/psalms/psalms.html *Wm Pruitt: The Commentary on the Verses of the Theriis: Theriigaathaa-A.t.thakathaa, Paramatthadiipanii VI by Aacariya Dhammapaala. PTS 1999 *txt/cy: vri to be continued, connie. #74646 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 7:16 am Subject: Listening to the Dhamma, Ch 6, no 7. nilovg Dear friends, We should understand our defilements, not avoid being aware of them; that is wrong practice which is a form of ditthi, wrong view. Only the sotåpanna has eradicated wrong practice. If we try to induce sati, there is wrong practice; we are already on the wrong Path, and if this is not known, right understanding cannot develop. We may mislead ourselves taking akusala for kusala. We may believe that there is confidence, saddhå, when we listen to the Dhamma, but there may be moments of clinging to calm or to pleasant feeling while we listen. Or there may be conceit with regard to kusala, we find “our kusala” very important. When we find ourselves important there is conceit. Khun Tongchai reminded us of the passage about the objects of conceit in the “Book of Analysis” (Vibhanga, Ch 17, Analysis of Small Items): Pride of birth; pride of clan; pride of health; pride of youth; pride of life; pride of gain; pride of being honoured; pride of being respected; pride of prominence; pride of having adherents; pride of wealth; pride of appearance; pride of erudition; pride of intelligence; pride of being a knowledgeable authority.... Conceit is so deeply rooted and it takes many lives before also the more subtle forms of conceit are eradicated; only the arahat eradicates conceit completely. The sotåpanna has eradicated wrong view, and although he does not take any reality for self, he may still cling to his abilities and his wisdom with conceit. Acharn Sujin reminded us that there are many moments of conceit we do not notice. For example when someone’s dress is red we may think: “O, look at that red dress”, and then there may be some contempt; we may think with conceit that we would not dress in that way. We are so used to finding ourselves important that we overlook such moments. Conceit may arise when we speak, when we stress what we say with gestures; we find our words very important. We may have conceit because of honour or possessions, but the citta which thinks of the importance of honour and possessions falls away immediately. Through the development of satipatthåna one will acquire more understanding of citta which falls away immediately, more understanding that life is only one moment of citta. We do not own honour and possessions. ********* Nina. #74647 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 7:15 am Subject: Conditions, Ch 8, no 6. nilovg Dear friends, Natural decisive support-condition also comprises factors such as climate, food, dwelling-place, family and friends. We can notice that good and bad friends condition our spiritual progress or decline. Someone may be in the company of bad friends who induce him to take drugs or alcoholic drinks, but the same person may be at another time with a good friend in the Dhamma who explains the teachings to him. It depends on his accumulated inclinations whether he will continue to be with the wrong friends or with the right friends. It is beneficial to know our different accumulations and the different conditions which play their part in our life. We can experience that bodily health or sickness conditions our cittas. Food, taken in the right amount, can be the condition for our ability to develop right understanding. The Buddha, before his enlightenment, fasted to the extent of becoming completed emaciated. He then understood that he was not practising the Middle Way and he took rice-gruel offered to him by Sujatå. On that day food was a natural decisive support-condition for the development of the right Path leading to his enlightenment. The right dwelling-place can also be a natural decisive support-condition for one’s spiritual progress. The Buddha explained into the minutest details how dwelling-places should be kept and cleaned, out of compassion. He thought of the well- being of the monks. We read for example in the “Vinaya” (Book of the Discipline V, Culla-vagga, Ch VIII, On Observances, 208) that a monk should clear out an unoccupied dwelling-place and then clean it: ... If there are cobwebs in the dwelling-place, he should first remove them from the (floor-) covering. He should wipe the corners of the window-holes. If a wall that was coloured red becomes stained, he should wipe it having moistened a rag, having wrung it out. If ground that was blackened becomes stained, he should wipe it having moistened a rag, having wrung it out. If the ground has not been treated, he should sweep it having sprinkled it all over with water, thinking: “Take care lest the dwelling-place is sullied with dust”. Having looked for (any) rubbish, he should remove it to one side.... We may believe that thinking of concepts which, for example, pertain to the cleaning of our house may hinder the practice of satipatthåna. We may be inclined to separate awareness of nåma and rúpa from thinking of the chores we have to do in our home. Both monks and laypeople have to think of concepts, but there can be awareness and understanding of thinking as a conditioned nåma and there can also be awareness of other realities which appear. Seeing and visible object appear time and again and by awareness of their characteristics they can be known as they are. The Buddha had explained to the monks very often to be aware during all their activities and thus he did not have to repeat this again, it was understood. When we read about the monk‘s chores we can be reminded to be aware, also while we are doing such chores, just as the monks. ******* Nina. #74648 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 8:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] e-card from America buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi James, > thank you for your e-card, nice to hear from you. > True, dwelling place is natural strong dependence-condition for > kusala citta or akusala citta. James: I'm glad you agree. The Vism. states that location is important for concentration, I'm not sure about kusala and akusala condition. Concentration can be either. No time to 'discuss' it though. > Someone wrote that in the Buddha's time there were less distractions, > but I would say that people in the past and people today have lobha, > dosa and moha. James: I wouldn't say that there were less distractions in the Buddha's time. Depending on one's lifestyle, there could have been just as many distractions as today. The human ability to create distractions is pretty inventive! ;-)) If the distraction is not from outside it will be from > within. People in the past (see Sisters) were able to follow the > Buddha's Path and so can we when there are the right conditions: > association with the right friend, listening, considering and the > application of the Dhamma. James: True, all very important. But, as the Buddha said, if you can't find a noble friend it is better to go it alone than a fool for company. Unfortunately, fools greatly outnumber noble friends. :-) > How were your parents, they must have been glad to see you. James: Yeah, they were very glad to see me- thanks for asking. :-) > Nina. Metta, James #74649 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 3:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions, Ch 8, no 5. kenhowardau Hi Nina and Howard, This might be one case where butting-in on someone else's conversation is not a good idea. I probably should have left well alone. Nina wrote: > Akusala can also be a natural decisive support-condition for kusala. > Because of aversion towards akusala vipåka or attachment to kusala > vipåka one may perform good deeds. One may regret the akusala one > performed in the past and then, in order to counteract it, one > performs kusala. Looking at that again I notice the last half of the last sentence. It explains everything, and I see that I have spoken too soon. There is no great difficulty with this aspect of natural decisive support (NDS) condition, after all. I must have also have misunderstood the recorded conversation with K Sujin that I mentioned. Delete all reference! :-) Ken H #74650 From: LBIDD@... Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 4:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What is the wrong view? (References from the MN anthology) lbidd2 Hi Jon, J: "I can only say what I understand to be the case;" L: Is this understanding right view, wrong view, or faith? Larry #74651 From: LBIDD@... Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 5:11 pm Subject: Vism.XVII,173 Vism.XVII,174 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga), Ch. XVII 173. But it may be said: 'That may be so; but then these formations must be the conditions for the fruit either when they are present or when they are not present, and if it is when they are present, their result must come about only at the moment of their occurrence; but if it is when they are not present, they must bear fruit constantly both before and after their occurrence'. It can be replied: They are conditions when performed; They bear fruit once, but not again; The agent and such similes Will serve to make the meaning plain. 174. Formations are conditions for their own fruit because they have been performed, not because of presence or non-presence, according as it is said: 'Due to profitable kamma of the sense sphere having been performed, stored up [in the past], resultant eye-consciousness arises [in the present]' (Dhs. 431), and so on. Having become conditions for their own fruit according to their capacity, they do not again bear fruit since the result has already ripened. And in explaining the meaning of this the analogy of the agent, etc., should be understood. For just as in the world when someone becomes an agent with the aim of completing some business or other, and he buys goods, say, or obtains a loan, it is simply the fact of his performing the transaction that is the condition for completing that business, not the transaction's actual presence or non-presence; and after the completion of the business he has no further liability. Why not? Because the business has been completed. So it is because they have been performed that formations are conditions for their own fruit, and they do not bear fruit after they have already given fruit according to their capacity. Up to this point the occurrence, with formations as condition, of rebirth-linking consciousness that occurs in the two ways as mixed and unmixed [with materiality] has been illustrated. ************************ 173. yopi vadeyya ``eva.m santepi ete sa"nkhaaraa vijjamaanaa vaa phalassa paccayaa siyu.m, avijjamaanaa vaa, yadi ca vijjamaanaa pavattikkha.neyeva nesa.m vipaakena bhavitabba.m, atha avijjamaanaa pavattito pubbe pacchaa ca nicca.m phalaavahaa siyu''nti, so eva.m vattabbo -- katattaa paccayaa ete, na ca nicca.m phalaavahaa. paa.tibhogaadika.m tattha, veditabba.m nidassana.m.. 174. katattaayeva hi sa"nkhaaraa attano phalassa paccayaa honti, na vijjamaanattaa, avijjamaanattaa vaa. yathaaha ``kaamaavacarassa kusalassa kammassa katattaa upacitattaa vipaaka.m cakkhuvi~n~naa.na.m uppanna.m hotii''tiaadi (dha0 sa0 431). yathaarahassa ca attano phalassa paccayaa hutvaa na puna phalaavahaa honti vipaakattaa. etassa catthassa vibhaavane ida.m paa.tibhogaadika.m nidassana.m veditabba.m. yathaa hi loke yo kassaci atthassa niyyaatanattha.m paa.tibhogo hoti, bha.n.da.m vaa ki.naati, i.na.m vaa ga.nhaati, tassa ta.m kiriyaakara.namattameva tadatthaniyyaatanaadimhi paccayo hoti, na kiriyaaya vijjamaanatta.m, avijjamaanatta.m vaa, na ca tadatthaniyyaatanaadito parampi dhaarakova hoti. kasmaa? niyyaatanaadiina.m katattaa. eva.m katattaava sa"nkhaaraapi attano phalassa paccayaa honti, na ca yathaaraha.m phaladaanato parampi phalaavahaa hontiiti. ettaavataa missaamissavasena dvedhaapi vattamaanassa pa.tisandhivi~n~naa.nassa sa"nkhaarapaccayaa pavatti diipitaa hoti. #74652 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 2:22 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions, Ch 8, no 5. upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and Nina) - In a message dated 7/26/07 6:34:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowa@... writes: > > Hi Nina and Howard, > > This might be one case where butting-in on someone else's > conversation is not a good idea. I probably should have left well > alone. Nina wrote: > > >Akusala can also be a natural decisive support-condition for kusala. > >Because of aversion towards akusala vipåka or attachment to kusala > >vipåka one may perform good deeds. One may regret the akusala one > >performed in the past and then, in order to counteract it, one > >performs kusala. > > Looking at that again I notice the last half of the last sentence. It > explains everything, and I see that I have spoken too soon. There is > no great difficulty with this aspect of natural decisive support > (NDS) condition, after all. > > I must have also have misunderstood the recorded conversation with K > Sujin that I mentioned. > > Delete all reference! :-) > > Ken H ======================= Ken, I always find it a pleasure to experience the rarity of seeing a person look further at something, reconsider, and change his/her stance! Sadhu x 3! With metta, Howard #74653 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 7:03 pm Subject: Vism.XVII,173 Vism.XVII,174 nichiconn "The Path of Purity" - pp.666-667: But the objector might say: "If this be so are the existing activities causes of the fruit or the non-existing ones? If the existing activities are the cause, then the result should be at the moment of their proceeding. If the non-existing activities are the cause, then they would always be bearing fruit before and after that moment." He should be answered thus: Through commission root-causes they become, But they do not carry the fruit always. Trust-money and such other similes Should here in this respect be understood. For the activities are causes through commission of deeds, not because they are existent, or non-existent. As it is said: [556] "As a result of good karma having been wrought, having been stored up in connexion with the sensuous realm, eye-consciousness arises" {Dhammasa"nga.nii §431}. The activities are fittingly the causes of the results, but owing to the ripening of the result they do not again bear fruit. In order to make this clear, the illustration of trust-money and so on should be understood. For in the world a man receives in trust the management of a business. He either buys goods or invests the money. The actual carrying on of the business is the cause of the fulfilling of the trust, not whether the business exists or does not exist. But the trust does not constitute a permanent cause of the business, once it has been transacted. Why? Because of the trust having been discharged. So also the activities are causes of their own results. But they do not bear fruit after they have fittingly done so. So far has been shown the proceeding through the activities as causes of rebirth-consciousness happening as twofold by way of mixed and unmixed. #74654 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 7:28 pm Subject: Re: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (61) nichiconn O, Sarah, thanks for copying the EV footnotes! 74176 - "where Dhammapaala did not understand the meaning of a word he was commenting on,..." So glad you and Jon got Pruitt's book. He's got a lot of (to me) wierd (ok, meaningless) notes... hope you guys get more out of them. Yeah, like reading the PED! haha... reading the bhikkhuni section in book iii sacred texts/discipline and there's ch 14 - Untranslated!. Darn... looking for the story where Gotamii told Buddha the women didn't smell good... if there is one. No biggy & i haven't forgotten our the other curiousities... well, not always... just usually. mom's off on a trip with an old friend for a couple weeks or so. she'll let me know if & when she needs a ride home. not sure she took a book. peace, connie #74655 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 8:16 pm Subject: Re: What is the wrong view? (References from the MN anthology) indriyabala Hi Jon, - Jon: I would guess that "this world and the other world" is a reference to rebirth following upon death. This would be realised by, among other things, the realisation of Dependent Origination, which states in part that only by the eradication of ignorance is future becoming overcome. Just my thoughts. How does it sound? T: It sounds confusing, Jon. Why? I can give you two reasons. 1) I think "direct realization" of the truth that 'There is this world & the other world' is not possible by reasoning, or contemplation, of the Dependent Origination, no matter how much panna you have. 2) I do not see why overcoming future birth (which is only through arahantship) is the same as direct realization that there is 'the other world'. On the contrary, we can simply develop confidence and trust (saddha) in the Buddha -- i.e. to establish faith -- that the "next world" exists because the Buddha said so. That faith is not conditional on a direct realization of the other world and any worldling who has saddha in the Buddha can do it. Don't you think so? Tep === #74656 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 8:57 pm Subject: Re: Ladies in Church nichiconn hinayana. yes, colette, it has to do with the seeds! below, for what they're worth, are some bits from a conversation with another friend a few years ago where the idea kept popping up. peace, connie the World Buddhist Council back in the 50's agreed that there are no longer any living traditions that word applies to. So what, exactly, are we talking about when we use it? Nothing, unless it's some specific shools we've more than likely never even heard of. You might be up on all that history, but I'm still confused by it. Who were the Puggalavadins and what did they hold to be true? What did the Lokottaravadin Mahavastu say different from the Lalitavistara? Etc. So, I get upset over nothing. Sorry, but let me yell, "Theravada is NOT Hinayana!" and I'll drop it for now. Hina = diminished, dwindled, wasted-away, low, inferior, base, DESPICABLE. (Spraying spit like Sylvester). There are plenty of other words they could have chosen for things like lesser or minor. For instance, omaka = small. > ''Now dear, (she said, in a cracky granny voice, shaking her finger in your face, had on hip) you'll just have to get over that conviction that so many have (erroneously, harrumph) that Hinayana is necessarily pejorative'' (sitting back and rocking with her cup uf tea...self-satisfied and off in her 'other' world already............ By cracky, my other worldly tea snorter, you're rockin' a high horse. "One should carefully ponder the six-character phrase: 'the truer the teaching, the lower the stage.'" I don't mind the finger, but will once again point out the original meaning/flavour -spew- of hina, sparing you examples of Buddhaghosa's use of the word for now: as an adjective, it's 'low, inferior, base, despicable'; as a past tense of hayati, it's 'diminished, dwindled, wasted away'. I suppose one can justify drawing it out to a narrow 'lesser', but fail in all attempts to rid myself of the pejorative taste. Nor do I understand how 'mere expedient' comes to be turned on its head and given such (an implied) meaning. I imagine you've taken offense and would be just as happy not to hear from me, but where's the fun in that? I just really, really don't think the hinayana term is wise. I don't mean to beat a dead horse but that's what the word should be. That said, I'll give you some ammunition and we can put the poor thing to rest. Just taking the 'wasted away' meaning of hina, there is a bit of a play on words, as seems to be fairly common in the Teachings. Khina also means exhausted or wasted and the adjective khinabija is used for one without the seed of (future) existence... one who can echo Buddha's Lion Roar: 'lived is the holy life, there is no further rebirth'. That is, the arahat, which is what Buddhas are a special class of. I'm sure I've already quoted the longer version since it is one of my favorites in the Dhammapada. #74657 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 11:17 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions, Ch 8, no 5. nilovg Hi Ken, no, I do not delete. It is always good to have conversations with you and Howard. Something good comes from it. Nina. Op 27-jul-2007, om 0:32 heeft kenhowardau het volgende geschreven: > Delete all reference! :-) #74658 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Jul 26, 2007 11:57 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: What is the wrong view? (References from the MN anthology) jonoabb Hi Larry --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@... wrote: > > Hi Jon, > > J: "I can only say what I understand to be the case;" > > L: Is this understanding right view, wrong view, or faith? > > Larry We are talking about the meaning of a passage from the texts. As far as I know, no-one is claiming any direct knowledge or actual wisdom here; ordinary cittas and cetasikas apply ;-)) Sarah has drawn my attention to some posts in UP on this question that quote the commentary to M.117 as included in the footnotes to BB's translation. I think Sarah sees these as indicating that the right view "affected by the taints, partaking of merit, ripening on the side of attachment" is indeed a refernce to mundane insight. I give links to the posts below. Perhaps someone with access to MLDB could check the text and footnotes and clear this point up. (I think Scott posted a footnote from the translation recently, but I've not been able to find it.) Jon http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/17539 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/27462 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/50703 #74659 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 1:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions, Ch 8, no 5. kenhowardau Hi Nina and Howard, Thanks for your forbearance. :-) Reading too quickly I was confused by what looked like a loophole in the law. It seemed that akusala could sometimes be preferable to kusala. As I see it now, past akusala can be a condition for kusala in situations where someone has the [kusala] intention of making amends. I have no problem with that. It is not as if people who had refrained from evil would be in some way disadvantaged by their past goodness. :-) Ken H #74660 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 3:44 am Subject: Re: What is the wrong view? (References from the MN anthology) jonoabb Hi Tep --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi Jon, - > > Jon: I would guess that "this world and the other world" is a > reference to rebirth following upon death. > > This would be realised by, among other things, the realisation of > Dependent Origination, which states in part that only by the > eradication of ignorance is future becoming overcome. > > Just my thoughts. How does it sound? > > T: It sounds confusing, Jon. Why? I can give you two reasons. > 1) I think "direct realization" of the truth that 'There is this > world & the other world' is not possible by reasoning, or > contemplation, of the Dependent Origination, no matter how much panna > you have. We are discussing one of the 3 aspects of "right view" described in M.117.7 as "right view that is affected by the taints, partaking of merit, ripening on the side of attachment". To my understanding, "right view" refers to panna cetasika. So I would see this aspect of right view as a kind of direct realisation at some level or another (but not necessarily at the level of satipatthana). I agree that it's difficult to think of just how there could be "direct realization" of the truth that 'There is this world & the other world', but nonetheless I believe that is what is being referred to here. > 2) I do not see why overcoming future birth (which is only > through arahantship) is the same as direct realization that there > is 'the other world'. I did not mean to suggest that overcoming future birth (i.e., the attainment of arahantship) is the same as direct realization that there is 'the other world'. I was trying to say that the person who had realised the truth that with ignorance as condition there is becoming knows that there can be no end to becoming until ignorance has ceased completely, that is to say, that there will continue to be becoming ('other world'). > On the contrary, we can simply develop confidence and trust (saddha) > in the Buddha -- i.e. to establish faith -- that the "next world" > exists because the Buddha said so. That faith is not conditional on a > direct realization of the other world and any worldling who has > saddha in the Buddha can do it. Don't you think so? I'm not sure that the Buddha ever urged his followers to "simply develop confidence and trust (saddha) in the Buddha" and on that basis to accept his teaching as correct. On the contrary, I think he urged his followers to realise for themselves the truths of which he spoke. (Hoping I haven't misunderstood you.) Jon M. 117.7 "And what, bhikkhus, is right view that is affected by the taints, partaking of merit, ripening on the side of attachment? - 'There is what is given and what is offered and what is sacrificed, - there is fruit and result of good and bad actions; - there is this world and the other world...' This is right view affected by taints, partaking of merit, ripening on the side of attachment." #74661 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 4:58 am Subject: Sammadi.t.thi Corner scottduncan2 Dear All, SN 12,15(5) Kaccaanagotta - Bh. Bodhi, tr. (Kaccaanagottasutta.m) "At Saavatthi. Then the Venerable Kaccaanagotta approached the Blessed One, paid homage to him, sat down to one side, and said to him, 'Venerable sir, it is said, 'right view, right view.' In what way, venerable sir, is there right view? Saavatthiya.m Yatha kho aayasmaa kaccaanagotto yena bhagavaa tenupasa"nkami. Upasa"nkamitvaa bhagavanta.m abhivaadetvaa ekamanta.m nisiidi. Ekamanta.m nisinno kho aayasmaa kaccaanagotto bhagavanta.m etadavoca: "sammaadi.t.thi sammaadi.t.thii"ti bhante vuccati, kittaavataa nu kho bhante sammaadi.t.thi hotiiti? "This world, Kaccaana, for the most part depends upon a duality - upon the notion of existence and the notion of non-existence. But for one who sees the origin of the world as it really is with correct wisdom, there is no notion of non-existence in regard to the world. And for one who sees the cessation of the world as it really is with correct wisdom, there is no notion of existence in regard to the world. Dvaya.mnissito kho'ya.m kaccaana loko yebhuyyena atthita~nceva natthita~nca. Lokasamudaya~nca kho kaccaana yathaabhuuta.m sammappa~n~naaya passato yaa loke natthitaa, saa na hoti. Lokanirodha.m kho kaccaana yathaabhuuta.m sammappa~n~naaya passato yaa loke natthitaa, saa na hoti. Lokanirodha.m kho kaccaana yathaabhuuta.m sammappa~n~naaya passato yaa loke atthitaa, saa na hoti. "This world, Kaccaana, is for the most part shackled by engagement, clinging, and adherence. But this one [with right view] does not become engaged and cling through that engagement and clinging, mental standpoint, adherence, underlying tendency; he does not take a stand about 'my self'. He has no perplexity or doubt that what arises is only suffering arising, what ceases is only suffering ceasing. His knowledge aabout this is independent of others. It is in this way, Kaccaana, that there is right view. Upaayupaadaanaabhinivesavinibaddho khvaaya.m kaccaana loko yebhuyyena ta~nca upaayupaadaana.m cetaso adhi.t.thaana.m abhinivesaanusaya.m na upeti, na upaadiyati, naadhi.t.thaati 'attaa me'ti. Dukkhameva uppajjamaana.m uppajjati, dukkha.m nirujjhamaana.m nirujjhatii'ti na ka"nkhati. Na vicikicchati. Aparappaccayaa ~naa.namevassa ettha hoti. Ettaavataa kho kaccaana, sammaadi.t.thi hoti. "'All exists': Kaccaana, this is one extreme. 'All does not exist': this is the second extreme. Without veering towards either of these extremes, the Tathaagata teaches the Dhamma by the middle: 'With ignorance as condition, volitional formations [come to be]; with volitional formations as condition, consciousness...Such is the origin of this whole mass of suffering. But with the remainderless fading away and cessation of ignorance comes cessation of volitional formations; with the cessation of volitional formations, cessation of consciousness...Such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering." Sabbamatthii'ti kho kaccaana, ayameko anto. Sabba.m natthii'ti aya.m dutiyo anto. Ete te kaccaana ubho ante anupagamma majjhena tathaagato dhamma.m deseti. Avijjaapaccayaa sa"nkhaaraa. Sa"nkhaarapaccayaa vi~n~naa.na.m. Vi~n~naa.napaccayaa naamaruupa.m. Naamaruupapaccayaa sa.laayatana.m sa.laayatanapaccayaa phasso. Phassapaccayaa vedanaa. Vedanaapaccayaa ta.nhaa. Ta.nhaapaccayaa upaadaana.m. Upaadaanapaccayaa bhavo. Bhavapaccayaa jaati. Jaatipaccayaa jaraamara.na.m, sokaparidevadukkhadomanassuupaayaasaa sambhavanti. Evametassa kevalassa dukkhakkhandhassa samudayo hoti. Avijjaayatveva asesaviraaganirodhaa sa"nkhaaranirodho. Sa"nkhaaranirodhaa vi~n~naa.nanirodho. Vi~n~naa.nanirodhaa naamaruupanirodho. Naamaruupanirodhaa sa.laayatananirodho. Sa.laayatananirodhaa phassanirodho. Phassanirodhaa vedanaanirodho. Vedanaanirodhaa ta.nhaanirodho. Ta.nhaanirodhaa upaadaananirodho. Upaadaananirodhaa bhavanirodho. Bhavanirodhaa jaatinirodho. Jaatinirodhaa jaraamara.na.m, sokaparidevadukkhadomanassuupaayaasaa nirujjhanti. Evametassa kevalassa dukkhakkhandhassa nirodho hotii'ti. Sincerely, Scott. #74662 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 5:06 am Subject: [dsg] Re: What is the wrong view? (References from the MN anthology) scottduncan2 Dear Jon and Larry, Regarding: "Perhaps someone with access to MLDB could check the text and footnotes and clear this point up. (I think Scott posted a footnote from the translation recently, but I've not been able to find it.)" Scott: '...there is right view affected by the taints..." "Note 1102. This is mundane right view, a meritorious factor that conduces to favourable rebirth but does not by itself transcend conditioned existence. The expression upadhi-vepakka is glossed by MA to mean that it gives results consisting in the acquisitions [M.T: = the continuity of the five aggregates]," (MLDB, p.1327). Sincerely, Scott. #74663 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 5:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions, Ch 8, no 5. nilovg Hi Ken H, pakatupanissaya paccaya, natural decisive support-condition, is very wide. If one fears (dosa) an unhappy rebirth it may condition kusala, thus, akusala can condition kusala in this way. Nina. Op 27-jul-2007, om 10:48 heeft kenhowardau het volgende geschreven: > As I see it now, past akusala can be a condition for kusala in > situations where someone has the [kusala] intention of making amends. #74664 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 11:17 am Subject: Conditions, Ch 8, no 7. nilovg Dear friends, A suitable climate is a natural decisive support-condition for the development of paññå. We read in the Commentary to the “Satipatthåna Sutta”, the “Papañcasúdaní” [1], in the Introduction, about the reason why the Buddha preached this sutta to the people of the Kurus: The inhabitants of the Kuru country- bhikkhus, bhikkhunís, upåsakas, upåsikås (layfollowers)- by reason of their country being blessed with a perfect climate and through their enjoyment of other comfortable conditions were always healthy in body and in mind. They, happy with healthy minds and bodies, and having the power of knowledge, were capable of receiving deep teachings.... The climate was not the only condition for them to receive the teachings, they also had accumulated paññå. Oppressive weather and bad food can lead to dosa which may be so strong that one kills or performs other evil deeds. Habits such as going to sleep and waking up at a particular time are according to our nature, they are conditioned by way of natural decisive support. If one is not negligent there can be sati before going to sleep and also as soon as one wakes up. Someone who is indolent is bound to have attachment before he goes to sleep and when he wakes up. We may regret it that there is not often sati before going to sleep and when we wake up, but when there is more understanding of conditions we see that sati is anattå. ------------ 1. Middle Length Sayings I, no. 10. The Sutta and Commentary are translated by Ven. Soma, in “The Way of Mindfulness”, B.P.S. Kandy. ********* Nina #74665 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 11:17 am Subject: Listening to the Dhamma, Ch 7, no 1. nilovg Dear friends, Chapter 7 The Perfections Paññå which eradicates all defilements has to be developed gradually, during countless lives. There is no way to realize its development more rapidly. We have to listen to the Dhamma and carefully consider what we hear. We cannot do anything else, Acharn Sujin said. When paññå has grown it will realize the true nature of nåma and rúpa. The fact that we cannot do anything to hasten the development of paññå does not mean that we should be idle, doing nothing. All kinds of kusala for which there is an opportunity can be developed together with satipaììhåna. The Buddha, when he was a Bodhisatta, developed during countless lives the “perfections”, påramís, wholesome qualities which he accumulated, so that in his last life he could attain Buddhahood. These perfections are: dåna or generosity, síla or wholesome conduct, nekkhamma or renunciation, paññå, viriya or energy, khanti or patience, sacca or truthfulness, aditthåna or determination, mettå or loving kindness, upekkhå or equanimity. We too need to develop the perfections together with satipatthåna, so that there will once in the future be the right conditions for the attainment of enlightenment. During our last evening in Thaton we discussed some aspects of the perfections. They had been a topic of Dhamma discussions many times before, also in India, but there are always new aspects when we consider their practice in the situation of daily life. Acharn Sujin had warned us not to cling to an idea of self who wants to “have” the perfections, because that is not the way to accumulate them. There may be clinging to kusala or there may be conceit with regard to kusala, and therefore we need the perfection of truthfulness or sincerity to detect these defilements. We should have the sincere inclination to develop the perfections with the aim to have less defilements. We may wonder to what extent generosity and mettå should be developed towards a person who asks too much from us. Acharn Santi reminded me that we develop mettå in order to have less defilements. It is of no use to think for a long time about the other person, about situations, or to wonder to what extent we should develop mettå. We should consider the citta which develops the perfection of mettå. There is no specific order in which the perfections should be developed; they can all be developed together. Acharn Sujin stressed once that none of the perfections should be neglected, that we need the support of all of them so that we can reach the goal. ****** Nina. #74666 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 1:54 pm Subject: Re: What is the wrong view? (References from the MN anthology) indriyabala Hi Jon, - I think it was good for us to exchange our thoughts about right view (and wrong views). Exchanging thoughts has been my only objective of this discussion, since it is not possible to reach a conclusion for this issue. Jon (message #74660): I agree that it's difficult to think of just how there could be "direct realization" of the truth that 'There is this world & the other world', but nonetheless I believe that is what is being referred to here. ... .... Jon: I'm not sure that the Buddha ever urged his followers to "simply develop confidence and trust (saddha) in the Buddha" and on that basis to accept his teaching as correct. On the contrary, I think he urged his followers to realise for themselves the truths of which he spoke. (Hoping I haven't misunderstood you.) T: So far there has been no misunderstanding, Jon. Thank you for sharing your thought with me. Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Tep > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep > Sastri" wrote: > > > > Hi Jon, - > > > > Jon: I would guess that "this world and the other world" is a > > reference to rebirth following upon death. > > > > This would be realised by, among other things, the realisation of > > Dependent Origination, which states in part that only by the > > eradication of ignorance is future becoming overcome. > > > > Just my thoughts. How does it sound? > > > > T: It sounds confusing, Jon. Why? I can give you two reasons. (snipped) #74667 From: "colette" Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 8:22 am Subject: Does Succatash suffer? ksheri3 Good Morning connie, Haven't heard from you in a while and here you've given one a rather humourous oration, a type of speach such as an oratory (Better not let the Wigs know that I've Tories to be giving away) Let me ponder this, I thought it was filled to the brim with confusion for my uneducated mind. Putting it in as few words as possible I just want you to know that I don't see very much coming from the bitchin' over sects that have very little evidence of the presence even being, at any time. So, lets not ruffle our feathers over this. BTW, if you need help ruffling your feathers I can help, I've done it for countless fowl that have had the pleasure of being given gifts from petroleum corporations. <...> toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "L G SAGE" wrote: > > hinayana. yes, colette, it has to do with the seeds! below, for what they're worth, are some bits from a conversation with another friend a few years ago where the idea kept popping up. > peace, > connie > > > the World Buddhist Council back in the 50's agreed that there are no longer any living traditions that word applies to. So what, exactly, are we talking about when we use it? Nothing, unless it's some specific shools we've more than likely never even heard of. You might be up on all that history, but I'm still confused by it. Who were the Puggalavadins and what did they hold to be true? What did the Lokottaravadin Mahavastu say different from the Lalitavistara? Etc. So, I get upset over nothing. Sorry, but let me yell, "Theravada is NOT Hinayana!" and I'll drop it for now. <...> #74668 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 2:48 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: satipatthana as island of refuge -- Sarah's Request -- indriyabala Hi Scott, Sarah and others, - T: The following three paragraphs from an article at Mahasi's Weblink (By Sayadaw U Nyanuttara) are about 'vineyya'. Thank you, Scott, for your earlier posting, but it is partially illegible on my computer screen due to the original Pali fonts. Perhaps there are other members of this group who have had the same difficulty, and might find the following extract more readable (because I either deleted or retyped the illegible characters in the original online article). .............. http://www.mahasi.org.mm/discourse/E24/E24ch04.htm MOMENTARY CONCENTRATION Rebuttal of Reply to Rejoinder II–III By Sayædaw U Nyanuttara, Agga Maha Pandita (myanmar) The Ven. Kheminda observed: "It will be noted here that one has to practise each foundation of mindfullness `having got rid of covetousness and grief." What he meant by this observation is that Satipatthana can be practised only after hindrances have been overcome by jhana. It appears that he does not understand the usage of `ya' in the word `vineyya' in the introductory passage of Maha Satipatthana Sutta. This `ya' in the word `vineyya' (having overcome) is used to denote a verb prior to the main verb or a verb of the same time with the main verb. In this particular context, it does not denote `prior' but `at the same time', because the practice of Satipatthana and overcoming of covetousness and grief take place at the same time. Here `vineyya' is used according to the Pali grammatical usage and it means `overcoming', not `having overcome'. That it is to be taken in this sense is made clear by the explanation of `there arises in him knowledge after reflecting on the sign' (a sentence in Patisambhidamagga) in the Commentary to Patisambhidæmagga) as well as in Visuddhimagga. Considering these Pali and Commentarial passages, it should be understood that the dhammas that take place simultaneously are often stated according to common usage as if they take place one after the other. Therefore, in the Maha Satipatthana passage, contemplation of the four foundations of mindfullness and overcoming of hindrances are to be understood as taking place at the same time. It means that hindrances are overcome while contemplating the four foundations of mindfullness. This interpretation is confirmed by the MahaSatipatthana Sutta Commentary which states: "By overcoming covetousness and grief is meant the fruit of contemplation." (Note 95) It means that Satipatthana contemplation brings about the riddance of covetousness and grief. So the Ven. Khemida's observation "one has to practise each foundation of mindfullness "having got rid of covetousness and grief" is also not in accord with this commentarial passage. [End of the extract] Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Tep & Scott, > > (snipped) > S: I've been interested to read your further discussions. There seem to be two grammatical uses of vineyyea in this dict entry. When the format using the present perfect continuous is used (as in the above quote), it may just be a common 'device' used in the texts, like in the use of the 4 right efforts, all applying to a single moment. In any case, I think it's clear the meaning doesn't mean putting away covetousness and grief and then developing satipatthana! As discussed, at moments of satipatthana, the hindrances are 'put away' as the quote makes clear. > (snipped) > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======== > #74669 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 3:56 pm Subject: Off list messages ignored? kenhowardau Hi all, Occaionally, I receive off-list messages from DSG members. I have just noticed, however, that any such messages that might have been sent over the past few months (since I switched back to my "kenhowardau" account) would not have got through to me. I have been checking my Yahoo mail for off-list messages, but they would have been going to Gmail where they get hidden amongst the general DSG mail (which I don't read because I read DSG from the web page.) So, if anyone has sent me a message off-list I apologise for ignoring it. I am trying to change my membership settings to stop this happening in future. Ken H #74670 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 4:05 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What is the wrong view? (References from the MN anthology) lbidd2 Hi Jon, J: "We are talking about the meaning of a passage from the texts. As far as I know, no-one is claiming any direct knowledge or actual wisdom here; ordinary cittas and cetasikas apply ;-))" L: But the question is, what kind of ordinary cittas and cetasikas? If right view is disqualified, what is left? What is the nature of any understanding? It seems to me the understanding of any sutta could be characterized as right view, wrong view, faith, or ignorance. How else would you characterize it? If our understanding is wrong view or even "not right path" (faith?), what's the point? Do these discussions lead to nibbana? Larry #74671 From: "gazita2002" Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 4:39 pm Subject: Samsara gazita2002 Hello Nina and other friends, Nina, I found a letter from you that was written many years ago, late 1970's, in which you have mentioned my then, small daughter Zoe. Well, that same 'smll daughter' has just given birth to a small son. I was with her when baby was born and decided most definitely that birth is dukkha!!!!! All is well, thnkfully. I proceeded to think about future births and thought that I dont want to do this again, but we cant stop it, can we. Not until arahatship. Even our breathing, it just keeps on until we take our last breath and we dont know when that will be. Patience, courage and good cheer, azita #74672 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 9:21 pm Subject: Re: Mindfulness of Walking and General Deportment of the Body scottduncan2 Dear Phil, Thanks for the reply. Sorry for the delay. Busy week. I'll bypass all the 'hugeness', if you don't mind - too much baseless comparison between people and a little over the top, I thought - no offense, man. Regarding: P: "...I've also been thinking about whether it is possible to find a TRUE reading of the texts that doesn't depend on one's teachers interpretation. I mean, I listen to the Sayadaws, who are deeply versed in Abhidhamma and read the same commentaries, and their appraoch is way, way, way different from AS. (sorry, I know you prefer to talk about dhammas, not people - my inability to do so ties in with the above indriya imbalance.) I honestly don't think their interpretation is necessarily more truthful than AS's - their meditation technique has too many expectations for progress built into it. But the radical difference in the approaches of different teachers reading the same texts made me wonder about whether there is an intrinsic truth in the texts or whether it will always be shaded by the teacher. Scott, to be honest, I think it will be very difficult for you to find any intrinsic truth that is not shaded by Acharn Sujin's interpretation and teaching of it. No matter how thoroughly you study the texts, and the Pali..." Scott: I'll remind you that I don't consider Kh. Sujin to be my teacher. I do read her, and in 'The Perfections' she notes the following, (p. 126): "After the Buddha, the Exalted One, finally passed away, the Dhamma became the teacher in his stead. Truthfulness to the Dhamma means studying it with sincerity, with the aim to have correct understanding of it. We should not study the Dhamma with the aim to gain something, to acquire honour or praise, but only to have correct understanding of it. We should develop right understanding of the realities which appear so that defilements can be eradicated and ignorance abandoned." Scott: This rules her out as a teacher for me, although I appreciate her knowledge of the Dhamma very much. Maybe this makes her a suitable kalyaana-mitta, although this role is truly taken by the Dhamma as well. The Dhamma is the teacher now. I really think the project to counteract or contradict or debunk Kh. Sujin is ill-conceived - just my own very forgettable opinion. Do you really see no hope in understanding the Dhamma correctly? This is a serious statement and reveals discouragement and doubt. I say give up the teachers - whether the attachment is based on idealisation or devaluation - and take up the Dhamma. As far as the false comparison based on a putative ability to 'talk about dhammas and not people' - this is also not worth pursuing and is not the point - again in my most unimportant opinion. There is no doubt about 'an intrinsic truth' in the texts - its the Dhamma. 'People' misunderstand the Dhamma - which is why it is pa~n~na that understands. To me, the entire argument that there can be any directed practise founders on the truth of anatta - but you've been through all this before. You've slid from one end of the stick to the other. When anatta is misunderstood then all sorts of misconceptions arise. Anatta is not a 'higher teaching' to be learned later - after slogging around in the 'Dhamma for Dummies' aisle - it is a basic aspect of conditioned reality. It is a characteristic that fundamentally defines the nature of conditioned existence, if I can put it so imprecisely. I totally buy the implicit 'no-control' corollary. This is through-and-through, from beginning to end - no question. There can be no question, either, of teachings which ignore the basic truth of anatta, to be applied to 'beginners', who somehow then 'graduate' to anatta-based Dhamma later. Not in my opinion. This is how the view presented seems to me. Not conducive to understanding if you ask me - and likely an impediment. There can be no 'clinging' now for the purpose of 'not-clinging' later. See the discussion I am having (slowly) with Tep, where we are considering 'fulfilment', though, as I think this is relevant here. These are, obviously, my opinions (which I don't much appreciate). Sincerely, Scott. #74673 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 11:46 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Off list messages ignored? nilovg Dear Ken, Now I am mixed up about your Email address. Is it not gmail? But this one you just sent is. Nina. Op 28-jul-2007, om 0:56 heeft kenhowardau het volgende geschreven: > any such messages that might have been sent > over the past few months (since I switched back to my "kenhowardau" > account) would not have got through to me. > #74674 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat Jul 28, 2007 12:36 am Subject: Re: Off list messages ignored? kenhowardau Hi Nina, Yes, it is still Gmail. But I have stopped DSG posts from being sent to that account now, so that if anyone writes to me off-list I will be able to see their message. It won't be included with all the others - as if it had been posted to the list. There is probably a better way of doing it, but this way will do for now. Actually, I don't see any need to have DSG messages sent to me when I can just as easily read them straight from the web page (as I always have done). Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Ken, > Now I am mixed up about your Email address. Is it not gmail? But this > one you just sent is. > #74675 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Jul 28, 2007 12:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kaeng Krachan again 1. sarahprocter... Dear Nina, (Lodewijk & all), I'm glad you are quoting from the discussion between Lodewijk and K.Sujin following his questions about what sati is. I'd like to add a couple of comments too: --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: <..> > Kh S: Seeing, hearing, thinking, they all are different. We have to > begin to understand realities, they have their own characteristics. > As soon as sound appears, there is already attachment or aversion .... S: As you suggested, people expect a different kind of answer when they ask about sati or satipatthana. The point is that we need to hear and consider a lot about all kinds of paramattha dhammas and to really appreciate that these are the only realities that can ever be known. By understanding more and more about seeing, hearing, thinking, visible object and sound, sati will and does develop. ... > ------ > L: How do I know when there is sati? > ------- > Kh S: When there is more understanding about sati because of hearing > about it and considering what one hears. No one can condition its > arising. All dhammas are anattaa. > At this moment of touching there is no sati. When sati arises the > hardness is the same but there is awareness of it. Usually we touch > without sati, but when sati arises there is a slight difference. The > moment of sati does not last, but when there is sati the > characteristic of hardness appears. ... S: In other words, when characteristics of realities such as hardness become more and more apparent and there is less taking of people and things for being real, the characteristic of sati also becomes more apparent to panna. I think that Lodewijk's good questions point to just how subtle the Dhamma is. The answers can never be the ones we expect or even wish for because the Dhamma is going against the stream of the way we're used to considering, reflecting, questioning and being answered. It was the same for those in the Buddha's time and it's the same for us too. We might like particular dhammas to arise, to have certain results or to introduce an atta here and there, but this is not the Dhamma the Buddha taught. "As soon as sound appears, there is already attachment or aversion". This is the Dhamma, the truth! Appreciating all the other discussions and series. Metta, Sarah ========= #74676 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Jul 28, 2007 1:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] e-card from America sarahprocter... Hi James, --- buddhatrue wrote: > Hi All, > > Sarah had suggested that I post an update about my trip to America so > I guess I will. ... S: Thanks for doing this and sharing your reflections, Dhamma considerations and account of your visit to your old temple. .... >I picked up a little booklet in English (the only one > in English) called "An Introduction to Buddhism" by Ven. H. > Saddhatissa. I was impressed by its contents because it is a very > serious and thorough overview of Buddhism. Its contents are: > Buddhism, The Buddha, His Teaching, The Middle Way, The Threefold > Training, Kamma, Rebirth, The Three Characteristics, Dependent > Origination, Nibbana. .... S: Is it on the net, I wonder? When I lived in London (in the 70s), the temple which I had most contact with was the Sri Lankan one at Chiswick where Ven Saddhatissa was the Head Monk. He was a real Pali scholar and has translated many texts, but was most approachable and always very kind to me and gave Jon and I blessings and a nice talk after our marriage. He was always pleased to hear about my interest in Abhidhamma, receive copies of Nina's books at the temple and invited me and later A.Sujin to give talks at the temple. (KS asked Jon to give the second one instead of her!) Anyway, I'm glad you found time to visit your temple and hope you, Sebastien and your family enjoy the rest of your stay. Thx for keeping in touch. Metta, Sarah ========== #74677 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Jul 28, 2007 3:52 am Subject: Re: What is the wrong view? (References from the MN anthology) jonoabb Hi Scott --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Dear Jon and Larry, > > Regarding: > > "Perhaps someone with access to MLDB could check the text and > footnotes and clear this point up. (I think Scott posted a footnote > from the translation recently, but I've not been able to find it.)" > > Scott: '...there is right view affected by the taints..." > > "Note 1102. This is mundane right view, a meritorious factor that > conduces to favourable rebirth but does not by itself transcend > conditioned existence. The expression upadhi-vepakka is glossed by MA > to mean that it gives results consisting in the acquisitions [M.T: = > the continuity of the five aggregates]," (MLDB, p.1327). Many thanks for the footnote quote. The first sentence is not attributed to the commentary, but is presumably based on a reading of it. I take it to refer to mundane path moments, and in that case I stand corrected on this matter. I had thought there was another footnote dealing with this passage, but apparently not! Thanks again for coming in with the quote. Jon #74678 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Jul 28, 2007 3:56 am Subject: Re: What is the wrong view? (References from the MN anthology) jonoabb Hi Tep --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Hi Jon, - > > I think it was good for us to exchange our thoughts about right view > (and wrong views). Exchanging thoughts has been my only objective of > this discussion, since it is not possible to reach a conclusion for > this issue. Thanks, Tep. I agree it has been a good exchange. We can usefully discuss without necessarily agreeing in all respects! > Jon (message #74660): I agree that it's difficult to think of just > how there could be "direct realization" of the truth that 'There is > this world & the other world', but nonetheless I believe that is what > is being referred to here. > ... .... > Jon: I'm not sure that the Buddha ever urged his followers to "simply > develop confidence and trust (saddha) in the Buddha" and on that > basis to accept his teaching as correct. On the contrary, I think he > urged his followers to realise for themselves the truths of which he > spoke. > > (Hoping I haven't misunderstood you.) > > T: So far there has been no misunderstanding, Jon. I'm glad about that! > Thank you for sharing your thought with me. Thanks to you, too, Tep. Jon #74679 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Jul 28, 2007 4:18 am Subject: [dsg] Re: What is the wrong view? (References from the MN anthology) jonoabb Hi Larry --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@... wrote: > > Hi Jon, > > J: "We are talking about the meaning of a passage from the texts. As far > as I know, no-one is claiming any direct knowledge or actual wisdom > here; ordinary cittas and cetasikas apply ;-))" > > L: But the question is, what kind of ordinary cittas and cetasikas? If > right view is disqualified, what is left? What is the nature of any > understanding? It seems to me the understanding of any sutta could be > characterized as right view, wrong view, faith, or ignorance. How else > would you characterize it? As I see it, what we call a person's 'understanding of a sutta' is really a conceptual kind of thing and so not really classifiable in terms of the mental factors of right view, wrong view, faith or ignorance. In any event, a view as to the meaning of a sutta is not necessarily a 'view' of any kind in the dhamma sense. It may be just a tentative conclusion based on one's reading of the texts. The kind of views one forms from one's study of the texts are not be compared with the deeply held views that a person comes into this world with and which presumably remain part of the person's accumulated tendencies regardless of his/her exposure to the teachings in this lifetime. > If our understanding is wrong view or even > "not right path" (faith?), what's the point? As I say, our understanding of the meaning of what we read from the texts does not necessarily constitue right or wrong view at all. But the point is that we need to hear and consider things a lot in order to (a) come to correct conclusions about the intended meaning and (b) relate what has been intellectually understood to the present moment. > Do these discussions lead to nibbana? Do these discussions help in the development of the path? I believe they do. (What's your view on this?) Jon #74680 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Jul 28, 2007 4:23 am Subject: Re: Samsara jonoabb Hi Azita --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" wrote: > > Hello Nina and other friends, > > Nina, I found a letter from you that was written many years ago, late > 1970's, in which you have mentioned my then, small daughter Zoe. Well, > that same 'smll daughter' has just given birth to a small son. I was > with her when baby was born and decided most definitely that birth is > dukkha!!!!! All is well, thnkfully. > > I proceeded to think about future births and thought that I dont > want to do this again, but we cant stop it, can we. Not until > arahatship. Even our breathing, it just keeps on until we take our > last breath and we dont know when that will be. So true. It is all beyond our control! Jon PS Congratulations! #74681 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Jul 28, 2007 5:25 am Subject: Re: What is the wrong view? (References from the MN anthology) scottduncan2 Dear Jon (and Larry), Regarding: J: "Many thanks for the footnote quote. The first sentence is not attributed to the commentary, but is presumably based on a reading of it. I take it to refer to mundane path moments, and in that case I stand corrected on this matter. I had thought there was another footnote dealing with this passage, but apparently not!" Scott: Here are two preceding footnotes, they may also be relevant. I didn't add them since they comment on phrases which occur prior to the one in question (sorry about that): "Note 1100. Pubbangamaa, lit. 'the forerunner.' MA says that two kinds of right view are forerunners: the right view of insight, which investigates formations as impermanent, suffering, and non-self; and the right view of the path, which arises as a consequence of insight and effects the radical destruction of defilements. The right view of insight as the forerunner seems to be shown [stanzas] 4, 10, 16, 22, and 28; the right view of the path as forerunner in [stanzas] 34 and 35." "Note 1101. This statement suggests that in order to acquire right view about the nature of reality, one must first be able to distinguish between wrong and right teachings on the nature of reality. MA says that this is the right view of insight which understands wrong view as an object by penetrating its characteristics or impermanence, etc., which understands right view by exercising the function of comprehension and by clearing away confusion." Sincerely, Scott #74682 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jul 28, 2007 2:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Samsara upasaka_howard Hi, Jon (and Azita) - In a message dated 7/28/07 7:23:32 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: > So true. It is all beyond our control! > > Jon > > PS Congratulations! > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: But why the congratulations, Jon? The birth of daughter Zoe to begin with was entirely beyond Azita's control - the conception too, I presume, hmmm? ;-) Yes, of course, Azita - my heartiest congratulations as well, and may all continue well for your daughter, your new grandson, and you & your entire family! :-) ======================== With metta, Howard #74683 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 28, 2007 7:24 am Subject: Mindfulness of Walking and General Deportment of the Body nilovg Dear Scott, I just add a few remarks to your good post. this quote you give is a good reminder of the purpose of our study: -------- in 'The Perfections' she notes the following, (p. 126): "After the Buddha, the Exalted One, finally passed away, the Dhamma became the teacher in his stead. Truthfulness to the Dhamma means studying it with sincerity, with the aim to have correct understanding of it. We should not study the Dhamma with the aim to gain something, to acquire honour or praise, but only to have correct understanding of it. We should develop right understanding of the realities which appear so that defilements can be eradicated and ignorance abandoned." -------- N: As Kh Sujin often states: we study only for the sake of having more understanding, and it is understanding that leads to detachment. No other way. She says that the whole of the teachings deal with detachment. --------- Scott (to Phil): Do you really see no hope in understanding the Dhamma correctly? This is a serious statement and reveals discouragement and doubt. I say give up the teachers - whether the attachment is based on idealisation or devaluation - and take up the Dhamma.... When anatta is misunderstood then all sorts of misconceptions arise. ------ N: That is why Kh Sujin emphasizes that it is important to understand seeing, visible object, etc. as dhamma, a conditioned reality. Nobody can create it. Who can create seeing? It arises when visible object impinges on the eyebase. Evenso sati cannot be induced, it is dhamma, and if this is not thoroughly understood, there is bound to be wrong practice. As you say: misconceptions arise. --------- S: Anatta is not a 'higher teaching' to be learned later - after slogging around in the 'Dhamma for Dummies' aisle - it is a basic aspect of conditioned reality. It is a characteristic that fundamentally defines the nature of conditioned existence, if I can put it so imprecisely. I totally buy the implicit 'no-control' corollary. This is through-and-through, from beginning to end - no question. ------- N: Yes, from beginning to end. People fall over this, but if we have more understanding of anatta we are not afraid to speak of no control. We can take that in the right sense. Dhammas arise and fall away so rapidly that there is simply no time to do anything, or to prevent them from arising. They have arisen already. But the situation is not hopeless. Certainly conditions can be accumulated for the arising of understanding. That is the whole purpose of our study of the Dhamma, of studying with awareness the present reality. Also this is conditioned by association with the right friend in Dhamma, by hearing and considering the Dhamma. The fact that we are discussing now and considering realities is conditioned. If we forget this, we take all such moments for self. We often do, but pa~n~naa can investigate all those moments. I think it is not easy to really see when we discuss and study with an underlying idea of self. What do you think, Scott? It is helpful if you can add anything to this. Kh Sujin says that lobha is like a teacher we always follow and also like a pupil who always follows us, this is in the Sutta. This should not discourage us, it is beneficial to know. And I agree with you: 'There can be no 'clinging' now for the purpose of 'not-clinging' later.' If we think, O it does not matter, we are bound to cling anyway, this is not helpful. It is better to become more familiar with the characteristic of clinging. Also that is dhamma. Appreciating your post, good food for thought, Nina. #74684 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 28, 2007 7:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Samsara nilovg Dear Azita, Op 28-jul-2007, om 1:39 heeft gazita2002 het volgende geschreven: > Well, > that same 'smll daughter' has just given birth to a small son. I was > with her when baby was born and decided most definitely that birth is > dukkha!!!!! ------- N: Notwithstanding, I bet you are glad. Congratulations. We still have clinging, we are in samsara, with all the consequences. I remember that you were at wits end with Zoe now and then. How she kept on crying, during the dhamma talks, and also in the train. Her voice is on my tapes. But now she has grown up to be a nice young woman who has a son. Nina. #74685 From: "Larry" Date: Sat Jul 28, 2007 7:38 am Subject: [dsg] Re: What is the wrong view? (References from the MN anthology) lbidd2 Hi Jon, Larry: "Do these discussions lead to nibbana?" Jon: "Do these discussions help in the development of the path? I believe they do. (What's your view on this?)" L: It's complicated and doesn't really follow the structure of "right view, wrong view, right path, wrong path". For example, as Nina was discussing in another thread akusala can condition the arising of kusala. If we cling to a view or only understand it conceptually then it is akusala and necessarily wrong view and wrong path. But that wrongness can be recognized and that recognition is right view and right path. In that sense anything can be a condition for the development of the path insofar as anything can be correctly identified. But I would add that a merely conceptual view can also condition the arising of faith and faith can be a beginning long before there is any direct recognition of concept and reality. Larry #74686 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Jul 28, 2007 10:13 am Subject: Re: Mindfulness of Walking and General Deportment of the Body scottduncan2 Dear Nina, Thanks for your reply and good remarks. Regarding: N: "I think it is not easy to really see when we discuss and study with an underlying idea of self. What do you think, Scott? It is helpful if you can add anything to this." Scott: Well, just opinions but no, impossible to really see when the view is occluded by an underlying idea of self. I think that this underlying idea is rooted in lobha. With the sense that 'I' study, 'I' come to conclusions, 'I' think for 'myself', 'I am' open-minded, 'I am' learning things, 'I discuss' things, etc., there is an experience of being a part of these actions - of an identification with them. They are claimed and subsumed under the idea of self - but this is just part of experience, perhaps not even thought about. And this is obscuration. It is just seeing and thinking. It rolls on. When the sutta's say, 'A bhikkhu does such-and-such', an idea of self clings to the notion of someone - a bhikkhu, or this means 'me' too - who is doing something, or is told to do something. Without an idea of self, 'bhikkhu' is just a given moment of consciousness, just a certain constellation of conditioned dhammas. When it is not just views, there is attachment to 'my ideas' and 'my feelings' about 'his or her ideas', and to 'I am right' or 'I am wrong'. Given that there is only one way in which Dhamma can be right, and only certain dhammas the function of which is to determine this, then there can be no question of someone learning and someone getting it right. This understanding makes it possible, then, to use conventional language and not become confused by it. N: "...It is better to become more familiar with the characteristic of clinging. Also that is dhamma." Scott: Yes, no one clings, there is just clinging and it has this quality and this quality alone - no other. Once this is experienced and known then this is not taken for self - it is clinging. Just opinions, Nina. Any further comments would be appreciated... Sincerely, Scott. #74687 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 28, 2007 11:26 am Subject: Conditions, Ch 8, no 8. nilovg Dear friends, The place where someone is born and where he lives can be a natural decisive support-condition for paññå. Birth in the human plane and in a place where we can hear the Dhamma is rare. By the following sutta we can be reminded not to waste any opportunity to develop right understanding. We read in the “Gradual Sayings” (I, Book of the Ones, Ch XIX, Trifling): Even as, monks, in this Rose-apple Land trifling in number are the pleasant parks, the pleasant groves, the pleasant grounds and lakes, while more numerous are the steep precipitous places, unfordable rivers, dense thickets of stakes and thorns, and inaccessible mountains,- just so few in number are those beings that are born on land: more numerous are the beings that are born in water. Just so few in number are the beings that are reborn among men: more numerous are the beings that are born among others than men. Just so few in number are those beings that are reborn in the middle districts: more numerous are those reborn in the outlying districts, among the undiscerning barbarians. Just so few in number are those beings that are wise, quick-witted, not deaf or dumb, competent to judge the meaning of what is spoken well or ill: more numerous are those beings that are foolish, slow- witted, deaf or dumb, incompetent to judge the meaning of what is spoken well or ill. Just so few in number are those beings that are possessed of the ariyan eye of wisdom [1]: more numerous are those sunk in ignorance and bewilderment. Just so few in number are those beings that get the chance of seeing a Tathågata: more numerous are they that do not. Just so few in number are those beings that welcome, when they hear it, the Dhamma and Discipline set forth by a Tathågata: more numerous are they that do not. Just so few in number are those beings, that, on hearing Dhamma, learn it by heart: more numerous are they that do not. Just so few in number are those beings that examine the meaning of the doctrines they have learnt by heart... that, understanding the meaning and understanding the doctrine, live in accordance with it... that are stirred by stirring topics... that, being stirred, strive systematically... that, making resolution their object, win concentration, win one-pointedness of mind... that gain the best of food and condiments: more numerous are they that do not, but just exist on gathered scraps and food collected in a bowl. Just so few in number are those beings that are winners of the essence of the meaning, the essence of Dhamma, the essence of release: more numerous are those that do not. Wherefore I say to you, monks, thus must you train yourselves: We will become winners of the essence of the meaning, of the essence of Dhamma, of the essence of release. That is how you must train yourselves. -------- 1. The path, with insight. ******* Nina. #74688 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 28, 2007 11:39 am Subject: Listening to the Dhamma, Ch 7, no 2. nilovg Dear friends, When we listen to the Dhamma there should be patience, we should not wish for a quick result of the development of right understanding. We should listen without wishing to acquire something for ourselves, such as honour or esteem. When our goal is the development of understanding there is renunciation or detachment, nekkhamma. All ways of wholesomeness are nekkhamma, because during such moments one renounces akusala, one does not cling and there is no selfishness. When we feel tired we need viriya, energy, so that we make an effort to listen to the Dhamma; we also need determination to continue to listen, to consider the Dhamma and to develop satipatthåna. Síla should be developed together with satipatthåna. Some people believe that they have purity of síla when they do not transgress the five precepts. However, without satipatthåna one takes síla for self, there is no purity of síla (síla visuddhi). The sotåpanna will never transgress the five precepts and he does not take síla for self. The person who has not attained enlightenment may observe the precepts for a long time, but when for example his life is in danger he may transgress them. Moreover, he has not eradicated the wrong view of self. There are many kinds of síla; it can, for example, be classified as avoidance (våritta) and performance (cåritta). Avoidance is abstaining from akusala. Performance includes wholesome actions through body and speech such as helping, paying respect and politeness. We read in the Commentary to the “Basket of Conduct” (Cariyåpitaka), the “Paramatthadípaní” [1] about the síla of the Bodhisatta: Thus, esteeming virtue (síla) as the foundation for all achievements— as the soil for the origination of all Buddha-qualities, the beginning, footing, head, and chief of all dhammas issuing in Buddhahood—and recognizing gain, honour, and fame as a foe in the guise of a friend, a bodhisatta should diligently and thoroughly perfect his virtue as a hen guards his eggs: through the power of mindfulness and clear comprehension in the control of bodily and vocal action, in the taming of the sense-faculties, in purification of livelihood, and in the use of the requisites [2].... The vicissitudes of the world are gain and loss, honour and lack of honour, praise and blame, wellbeing and pain. We only desire pleasant worldly conditions, but we do not see them as enemies in the guise of friends. We cling to them and we do not see that they are subject to change, and we may even commit akusala kamma such as lying or stealing in order to obtain them. ---------- 1. Translated by Ven. Bodhi in a supplement to his translation of the “All-Embracing Net of Views”, “Brahmajåla Sutta”, Kandy, 1987. 2. The requisites of the monk are robes, food, dwelling-place and medicine. ****** Nina. #74689 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jul 28, 2007 8:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions, Ch 8, no 8. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 7/28/07 2:26:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Dear friends, > > The place where someone is born and where he lives can be a natural > decisive support-condition for paññå. ======================== But these are not paramattha dhammas. So pa~n~natti can fit in with this, Nina? Is the answer that it is not exactly the places, but the paramattha dhammas frequently and typically arising under the conventional circumstances of auspicious place of birth and auspicious place of residence that play this role? With metta, Howard #74690 From: "colette" Date: Sat Jul 28, 2007 7:35 am Subject: Ro-langs or Vetalas? ksheri3 Good Morning Group, I finally got the end pages of a text printed the other day which allowed me to finally get the end of the text read, last night. As I sat reading I noticed something. I said to myself, "why look, it's Little Sprout, fancy meeting you here". I only had a page or two remaining so it didn't take long before I reached the end of where I was reading and could begin the meditation process. Ah, but Little Sprout was rather bothersome and kept intruding on my thoughts which led me to permit the meditation to continue without my conscious interference where I saw, in the context of VISUALIZATION through the "mind's eye", "Johnny the Wad", no, I saw "Johnny Appleseed" busy as a beaver laying the ground work for what he knew I was going to be encountering. You understand that only an actual practioner would have noticed Little Sprout and cognized Little Sprout in such a way (a little later I went on line for a few minutes before the owners of the computer couldn't stand the noise of the keyboard at night bellowing through the home, but during the few minutes I had on line I encountered another aspect, sephira, of this same occurance but was cut short)where I felt such a kinship and comfort in this person's presence. Needless to say I was VERY EAGER to go back and review this person's words but couldn't do that without a computer, which is a DESIRE, a CRAVING, which I saw, cognized, and mastered before it could turn into a Little Sprout itself. To this person, whose name I'd rather not say so as to maintain PLAUSABLE DENIABILITY and because, me thinks this person knows the workings of magik and, in particular, the ways I've done magik on line and do magik in practice, I say to this person: We drink from the same cup, it's a pleasure knowing you're aboard. As for the moment, I'm confronted by this REDUTIO AD ABSURDUM which, hell if I know or cognize, I've gotta deal with and find out how Nargajuna did such a splendid job with it. toodles, colette #74692 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Jul 28, 2007 7:14 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: What is the wrong view? (References from the MN anthology) jonoabb Hi Larry Thanks for these further commnets. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" wrote: > > Hi Jon, > > Larry: "Do these discussions lead to nibbana?" > > Jon: "Do these discussions help in the development of the path? I believe > they do. (What's your view on this?)" > > L: It's complicated and doesn't really follow the structure of "right view, wrong view, right > path, wrong path". I think part of the difficulty of this area is that there are levels of right view, and also of right path, but they need to be considered separately. As regards right view, there is a level of right view when there is correct intellectual understanding of/reflection on the teachings. However, this is regarded as kusala of the level of samatha, and hence not yet of the level of right path. As regards right path, there is mundane path and there is supramundane path. Mundane path is satipatthana, while supramundane path is path consciousness (magga citta), in other words, moments of enlightenment. > For example, as Nina was discussing in another thread akusala can > condition the arising of kusala. If we cling to a view or only understand it conceptually then it > is akusala and necessarily wrong view and wrong path. I'm not sure why you say that correct conceptual understanding is akusala. Surely it is kusala? (But it may not be right path -- see above.) > But that wrongness can be recognized > and that recognition is right view and right path. I agree that recognition of akusala is likely to be kusala. However, it would not be right path unless accompanied by sati of the level of satipatthana. > In that sense anything can be a condition > for the development of the path insofar as anything can be correctly identified. Yes, anything can be condition for the development of the path if satipatthana has been developed. > But I would > add that a merely conceptual view can also condition the arising of faith and faith can be a > beginning long before there is any direct recognition of concept and reality. Yes, there can be confidence in the teachings, conditioned by an appreciation of the teachings, without there being any direct awareness of dhammas. I think we are mostly in agreement here ;-)) Jon #74693 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Jul 28, 2007 7:22 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Samsara jonoabb Hi Howard --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Jon (and Azita) - > > In a message dated 7/28/07 7:23:32 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > jonabbott@... writes: > > > So true. It is all beyond our control! > > > > Jon > > > > PS Congratulations! > > > --------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > But why the congratulations, Jon? The birth of daughter Zoe to begin > with was entirely beyond Azita's control - the conception too, I presume, hmmm? > ;-) ;-)) ;-)). I presume so too; unless there was a degree of influence? Jon #74694 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Jul 28, 2007 7:33 pm Subject: Re: Sammadi.t.thi Corner scottduncan2 Dear All, SN 12,15(5) Kaccaanagotta - Bh. Bodhi, tr. (Kaccaanagottasutta.m) "This world, Kaccaana, for the most part depends upon a duality - upon the notion of existence and the notion of non-existence..." Dvaya.mnissito kho'ya.m kaccaana loko yebhuyyena atthita~nceva natthita~nca. "Note 29. Spk: 'For the most part' (yebhuyyena) means for the great multitude, with the exception of the noble individuals (ariyapuggala). The notion of existence (atthitaa) is eternalism (sassata); the notion of non-existence (natthitaa) is annihilationism (uccheda). Spk-p.t: The notion of existence is eternalism because it maintains that the entire world (of personal existence) exists forever. The notion of nonexistence is annihilationism because it maintains that the entire world does not exist (forever) but is cut off. "In view of these explanations it would be misleading to translate these two terms, atthitaa and natthitaa, simply as 'existence' and 'nonexistence' and then to maintain (as is sometimes done) that the Buddha rejects all ontological notions as inherently invalid. The Buddha's utterances at 22:94, for example, show that he did not hesitate to make pronouncements with a clear ontological import when they were called for. In the present passage atthitaa and natthitaa are abstract nouns formed from the verbs atthi and natthi. It is thus the metaphysical assumptions implicit in such abstractions that are at fault, not the ascriptions of existence and nonexistence themselves. I have tried to convey this sense of metaphysical abstraction, conveyed in the Paali by the terminal -taa, by rendering the two terms 'the notion of existence' and 'the notion of nonexistence', respectively. On the two extremes rejected by the Buddha, see 12:48, and for the Buddha's teaching on the origin and passing away of the world, 12:44. "Unfortunately, atthitaa and bhava both had to be rendered by 'existence', which obscures the fact that in Paali they are derived from different roots. While atthitaa is the notion of existence in the abstract, bhava is concrete individual existence in one or another of the three realms. For the sake of marking the difference, bhava might have been rendered by 'being' (as was done in MLDB), but this English word, I feel, is too broad (suggestive of 'Being', the absolute object of philosophical speculation) and does not sufficiently convey the sense of concreteness intrinsic to bhava." Sincerely, Scott. #74695 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Jul 28, 2007 7:33 pm Subject: Re: What is the wrong view? (References from the MN anthology) jonoabb Hi Scott Thanks for copying the footnotes again. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Dear Jon (and Larry), > > Regarding: > > J: "Many thanks for the footnote quote. The first sentence is not > attributed to the commentary, but is presumably based on a reading of > it. I take it to refer to mundane path moments, and in that case I > stand corrected on this matter. > I had thought there was another footnote dealing with this passage, > but apparently not!" > > Scott: Here are two preceding footnotes, they may also be relevant. I > didn't add them since they comment on phrases which occur prior to the > one in question (sorry about that): > > "Note 1100. Pubbangamaa, lit. 'the forerunner.' MA says that two > kinds of right view are forerunners: the right view of insight, which > investigates formations as impermanent, suffering, and non-self; and > the right view of the path, which arises as a consequence of insight > and effects the radical destruction of defilements. The right view of > insight as the forerunner seems to be shown [stanzas] 4, 10, 16, 22, > and 28; the right view of the path as forerunner in [stanzas] 34 and 35." I find this next one particularly interesting: > "Note 1101. This statement suggests that in order to acquire right > view about the nature of reality, one must first be able to > distinguish between wrong and right teachings on the nature of > reality. MA says that this is the right view of insight which > understands wrong view as an object by penetrating its characteristics > or impermanence, etc., which understands right view by exercising the > function of comprehension and by clearing away confusion." "[T]he right view of insight which understands wrong view as an object". Wrong view has to be seen as it is in order for right view to develop. Our natural inclination is to deny, justify, rationalise, etc, what would to any 'objective observer' be obvious wrong view, since it is the nature of wrong view to be 'right' (otherwise it wouldn't be a 'view'). This is why it is so prenicious. "The right view of insight which ... understands right view by exercising the function of comprehension and by clearing away confusion". And right view which arises has to be recognised as right view, i.e., as distinct from other surrounding moments that are not right view. Easier said than done! Thanks again, Scott. Jon #74696 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Sat Jul 28, 2007 8:36 pm Subject: Re: Samsara nichiconn So, Grandma, A rare child.... as per Conditions, Ch 8, no 8 / #74687. "Trifling"! <...in this Rose-apple Land trifling in number are the pleasant parks,...> May he truly be one of <<... those beings that are winners of the essence of the meaning, the essence of Dhamma, the essence of release: more numerious are those that do not.>> Jambonada is the first word the on-line PED suggests looking up. Trivia? cheers, connie #74697 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat Jul 28, 2007 8:47 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions, Ch 8, no 8. kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Nina - > > In a message dated 7/28/07 2:26:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > vangorko@... writes: > > > Dear friends, > > > > The place where someone is born and where he lives can be a natural > > decisive support-condition for paññå. > ======================== > But these are not paramattha dhammas. So pa~n~natti can fit in with > this, Nina? Hi Howard (and Nina), Butting in (again), I would like to say that places, being pannatti, cannot condition anything. I think we all agree on that. In the ultimate sense, the "places" in which birth, life and death occur are moments of consciousness. They are, respectively, birth- citta, the subsequent (intervening) cittas, and death-citta. However, some of those intervening cittas create concepts of place. In so doing, they provide the means by which concepts of place can be natural decisive support for subsequent cittas (and cetasikas). The concepts themselves do not exist and, therefore, cannot condition anything. I know this is pretty well accepted at DSG, but it doesn't hurt to remind ourselves occasionally. :-) --------------------- H: > Is the answer that it is not exactly the places, but the paramattha dhammas frequently and typically arising under the conventional circumstances of auspicious place of birth and auspicious place of residence that play this role? > --------------------- Yes, but which paramattha dhammas are you referring to? Do you agree that the only dhammas involved are those that created/experienced the concepts? If, when you refer to "conventional circumstances" you are referring to some other (external) dhammas then, as I see it, you are proposing a world view not unlike the conventional one. The world of anicca, dukkha and anatta would, to all intents and purposes, be identical to the world of nicca, sukkha and atta. Ken H #74698 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Jul 28, 2007 9:51 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What is the wrong view? (References from the MN anthology) lbidd2 Hi Jon, J: "I'm not sure why you say that correct conceptual understanding is akusala. Surely it is kusala?" L: Well, if it arises with pa~n~naa then it must be kusala, but would it be only a conceptual understanding? If a "correct" but purely conceptual understanding arose without pa~n~naa wouldn't it be akusala? Larry #74699 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 29, 2007 12:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions, Ch 8, no 8. nilovg Hi Howard and Ken, ---------- > Howard: But these are not paramattha dhammas. So pa~n~natti can fit > in with > this, Nina? > Is the answer that it is not exactly the places, but the paramattha > dhammas frequently and typically arising under the conventional > circumstances of > auspicious place of birth and auspicious place of residence that > play this > role? Howard, this is a very good question. I struggled with this and wanted to check. Ken says: > -------------- N: this is not so. I can really feel with Ken, but let us do some checking. Under object-condition in the Patthaana we find also concepts as condition. These condition citta by being their object. Under object predominance-condition and object decisive condition, however, concepts are not mentioned. Under natural decisive support-condition, in the Patthaana (Faultless Triplet, p. 164) we find that lodging place is a natural decisive support-condition for cittas. Think of the four Wheels sutta, here it is also explained that the place where one lives can be a condition for kusala citta. We are born in the human plane, not in a hell plane, and is this not a condition for different cittas? It is good to learn the difference between paramattha dhammas and concepts, and concepts are not real in the same way as paramattha dhammas. But we should not deny that concepts such as place and person influence our behaviour, our way of thinking. We have to take into account that natural decisive support-condition is very wide, that it includes anything. It concerns daily life. Now I checked with the tapes about this subject by Kh Sujin: ------ I think we could bring up this point in India again. When I hear the word concept I am inclined to refer to the citta that thinks of a concept. But since the natural decisive support-condition is very wide, the concept itself can be called natural decisive support- condition. It can be a condition, just as a concept can be object- condition for all kinds of citta. Nina. #74700 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 29, 2007 1:09 am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 173, 174 and Tiika. nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 173, 174 Intro: in the following sections it has been explained that kamma of the past which is no longer present can produce its appropriate result at the present time. Text Vis.173: But it may be said: 'That may be so; but then these formations must be the conditions for the fruit either when they are present or when they are not present, and if it is when they are present, their result must come about only at the moment of their occurrence; but if it is when they are not present, they must bear fruit constantly both before and after their occurrence'. It can be replied: They are conditions when performed; They bear fruit once, but not again; The agent and such similes Will serve to make the meaning plain. -------- 174. Formations are conditions for their own fruit because they have been performed, not because of presence or non-presence, according as it is said: 'Due to profitable kamma of the sense sphere having been performed, stored up [in the past], resultant eye-consciousness arises [in the present]' (Dhs. 431), and so on. Having become conditions for their own fruit according to their capacity, they do not again bear fruit since the result has already ripened. And in explaining the meaning of this the analogy of the agent, etc., should be understood. --------- N: The Tiika explains that at the moment of the performing of kamma it becomes a condition. Thus it is then a condition for its fruit that can arise later on. As to the text: ‘Due to profitable kamma of the sense sphere having been performed, stored up [in the past]’, instead of ‘stored up’, the translation of upacitta should be: ‘accumulated’. The Tiika uses the expression of ‘kamma at the moment of accumulation’ (kammaayuuhanakkha.nato). The Tiika states that it is wrong to speak of formations being conditions for their fruit when present or not present. The Tiika states as to the expression ‘it does not produce fruit all the time’ (na ca nicca.m phalaavahaa”ti), that this is said in order to counteract doubt about the way kamma produces its fruit. ---------- Text Vis.: For just as in the world when someone becomes an agent with the aim of completing some business or other, and he buys goods, say, or obtains a loan, it is simply the fact of his performing the transaction that is the condition for completing that business, not the transaction's actual presence or non-presence; and after the completion of the business he has no further liability. Why not? Because the business has been completed. So it is because they have been performed that formations are conditions for their own fruit, and they do not bear fruit after they have already given fruit according to their capacity. Up to this point the occurrence, with formations as condition, of rebirth-linking consciousness that occurs in the two ways as mixed and unmixed [with materiality] has been illustrated. ---------- Conclusion: In the simile of the agent who transacts business, we read about a loan he obtained. U Narada in his ‘Guide to Conditional Relations’ (p. 52, 53) explains further about a borrower who has indebtedness to repay a loan: We never know which kamma will produce which result. As we read in the text: ‘Formations are conditions for their own fruit because they have been performed’. When kamma produces its fruit, kamma is no longer present, but the result which may be desirable or undesirable is experienced at the present time. The seeing or hearing that arise are results of kamma and they are uncontrollable. Nobody can create seeing or hearing. Seeing and hearing experience desirable or undesirable objects, depending on whether they are results of kusala kamma or of akusala kamma. Rebirth-consciousness is vipaakacitta produced by kamma. Nobody knows what kind of rebirth-consciousness will arise in the next life and where it will arise. When we consider kamma and vipaaka it will help us to understand anattaa. ******** Nina. #74701 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 29, 2007 1:47 am Subject: Mindfulness of Walking nilovg Dear Scott, --------- S: impossible to really see when the view is occluded by an underlying idea of self. I think that this underlying idea is rooted in lobha. ---------- N: As Jon said: So, it is very difficult to see when one has wrong view of self. Only through satipatthaana can it be known. There is often conceit, maana. We find ourselves so important. I think that only after the first stage of tender insight (knowing the difference between nama and rupa) can we know more clearly when there is wrong view, and when conceit. Now we do not even know naama as naama. As Kh Sujin said: -------- S: With the sense that 'I' study, 'I' come to conclusions, 'I' think for 'myself', 'I am' open-minded, 'I am' learning things, 'I discuss' things, etc., there is an experience of being a part of these actions - of an identification with them. They are claimed and subsumed under the idea of self - but this is just part of experience, perhaps not even thought about. And this is obscuration. It is just seeing and thinking. It rolls on. .. ------- N: This is very well explained. ---------- Scott: Yes, no one clings, there is just clinging and it has this quality and this quality alone - no other. Once this is experienced and known then this is not taken for self - it is clinging. ------ N: even when the first stage of insight is not reached yet, it is helpful to know more about clinging and the moments there is clinging. I heard this on a Thai tape: < With regard to mindfulness of Body, kaayanupassana satipatthaana, there is no self who knows this rupa and then that rupa. When sati is aware of hardness there is no self, the body as a whole, from head to toes, does not appear. Sound does not appear at that moment. When hardness appears, atta-sa~n~naa, the wrong remembrance of self, that has been accumulated, cannot let go yet of the idea of self, or of self who knows. But when hardness appears that characteristic can be considered as non-self. It is a long time practice, ciira kaala bhaavanaa. Realities arise and pass away very rapidly. The object of sati arises and falls away very fast and then there is thinking of hardness, of a flower. After sati has fallen away, there are many moments without sati. > Nina. #74702 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Jul 29, 2007 3:07 am Subject: Re: What is the wrong view? (References from the MN anthology) jonoabb Hi Larry --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@... wrote: > > Hi Jon, > > J: "I'm not sure why you say that correct conceptual understanding is > akusala. Surely it is kusala?" > > L: Well, if it arises with pa~n~naa then it must be kusala, but would it > be only a conceptual understanding? If a "correct" but purely conceptual > understanding arose without pa~n~naa wouldn't it be akusala? As far as I understand, there may be correct conceptual understanding (for example, (a) that taking the property of another when it has not been given is to be avoided, or (b) that what we take for people and things are only elements) arising without panna that is nonetheless kusala. In terms of the classification of kusala as dana, sila and bhavana (samatha and vipassana), it would be an aspect of samatha bhavana. Jon #74703 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jul 29, 2007 1:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions, Ch 8, no 8. upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 7/29/07 12:02:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > > >Hi, Nina - > > > >In a message dated 7/28/07 2:26:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > >vangorko@... writes: > > > >>Dear friends, > >> > >>The place where someone is born and where he lives can be a > natural > >>decisive support-condition for paññå. > >======================== > > But these are not paramattha dhammas. So pa~n~natti can fit > in with > >this, Nina? > > > Hi Howard (and Nina), > > Butting in (again), I would like to say that places, being pannatti, > cannot condition anything. I think we all agree on that. > > In the ultimate sense, the "places" in which birth, life and death > occur are moments of consciousness. They are, respectively, birth- > citta, the subsequent (intervening) cittas, and death-citta. > > However, some of those intervening cittas create concepts of place. > In so doing, they provide the means by which concepts of place can be > natural decisive support for subsequent cittas (and cetasikas). > > The concepts themselves do not exist and, therefore, cannot condition > anything. I know this is pretty well accepted at DSG, but it doesn't > hurt to remind ourselves occasionally. :-) > > --------------------- > H: >Is the answer that it is not exactly the places, but the > paramattha dhammas frequently and typically arising under the > conventional circumstances of auspicious place of birth and > auspicious place of residence that play this role? > > --------------------- > > Yes, but which paramattha dhammas are you referring to? Do you agree > that the only dhammas involved are those that created/experienced the > concepts? ------------------------------------------ Howard: It really doesn't matter whether I agree or disagree. It isn't a matter of opinion but of fact, and I do not know the facts first hand. I *suspect* that it is *not* just the dhammas that are directly involved in formation of these place concepts. A particular place of birth and a particular place of residence reduce to specific patterns of actual experience different from those of others. In the human realm, for example, as is often pointed out, mindstates are for the most part far less delightful than in the heaven realms and far less horrible than in the "lower" realms, and it is this that makes "spiritual advancement" so much more probable in it. ------------------------------------ > > If, when you refer to "conventional circumstances" you are referring > to some other (external) dhammas then, as I see it, you are proposing > a world view not unlike the conventional one. > ----------------------------------- Howard: I use this terminology to point to a particular range and particular types (jati) of paramattha dhamma, especially as regards avoiding the extremes of pleasantness and unpleasantness as mentioned above. In any case, such terminology is similar to when one refers to "lute sound" in sutta, abhidhamma, and commentary as a means to describe particular sound - it does not commit one to alleged reality as regards lutes. That is what concepts are for - to designate, point out, and to communicate (when expressed - vi~n~natti). ------------------------------------- The world of anicca, > > dukkha and anatta would, to all intents and purposes, be identical to > the world of nicca, sukkha and atta. ------------------------------------- Howard: I don't know what you are talking about - sorry. ------------------------------------- > > Ken H > =================== With metta, Howard #74704 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jul 29, 2007 1:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions, Ch 8, no 8. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Ken) - In a message dated 7/29/07 3:50:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard and Ken, > ---------- > >Howard: But these are not paramattha dhammas. So pa~n~natti can fit > >in with > >this, Nina? > >Is the answer that it is not exactly the places, but the paramattha > >dhammas frequently and typically arising under the conventional > >circumstances of > >auspicious place of birth and auspicious place of residence that > >play this > >role? > > Howard, this is a very good question. I struggled with this and > wanted to check. > Ken says: cannot condition > anything.> > >-------------- > N: this is not so. I can really feel with Ken, but let us do some > checking. > Under object-condition in the Patthaana we find also concepts as > condition. These condition citta by being their object. Under object > predominance-condition and object decisive condition, however, > concepts are not mentioned. > Under natural decisive support-condition, in the Patthaana > (Faultless Triplet, p. 164) we find that lodging place is a natural > decisive support-condition for cittas. > Think of the four Wheels sutta, here it is also explained that the > place where one lives can be a condition for kusala citta. We are > born in the human plane, not in a hell plane, and is this not a > condition for different cittas? --------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, but does not "realm of birth" refer ultimately to the paramattha dhammas typically involved? What we call realm of birth is actually a realm of experience. There is no realm per se, but only the dhammas of a particular sort interrelated in particular ways that we *call* the human realm or the animal realm or realm of hungry ghosts or Tusita heaven or Niraya hell. There are differences of type and pattern of experience among these, but the "realities" are the paramattha dhammas, and it seems to me that when we say that place of birth is condition for certain namas, that merely comes down to a way of expressing the effect of kamma. That certain auspicious kamma leads to birth as a human means nothing more or less than that a certain range of experience will be opening up. --------------------------------------------------- > It is good to learn the difference between paramattha dhammas and > concepts, and concepts are not real in the same way as paramattha > dhammas. But we should not deny that concepts such as place and > person influence our behaviour, our way of thinking. ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: But I think that is just a (useful) conventional manner of speaking. ---------------------------------------------------- > We have to take into account that natural decisive support-condition > is very wide, that it includes anything. It concerns daily life. > Now I checked with the tapes about this subject by Kh Sujin: decisive support-condition comprises everything, house, family... A > person is a pa~n~natti, and this can be object of mettaa or > reverence, she said. > ------ > Rob K helped me with a web about Kh Sujin's lecture about paccayas: > <. Pakatupa-nissaya-paccaya: > conditioning dhammas. : 89 citta, the 52 cetasika that arose before, > which are balava with much strength, and pannatti > conditioned dhammas : 89 citta and the 52 cetasika that arose after. > > ------ > I think we could bring up this point in India again. When I hear the > word concept I am inclined to refer to the citta that thinks of a > concept. But since the natural decisive support-condition is very > wide, the concept itself can be called natural decisive support- > condition. It can be a condition, just as a concept can be object- > condition for all kinds of citta. ---------------------------------------- Howard: What IS a concept, Nina? Do any of us agree on that? Thinking occurs. It is a reality. And it enables us to deal with intricate relations holding among paramattha dhammas. It *seems* to project things called "concepts," but all there is is the thinking, it seems to me. --------------------------------------- > Nina. ==================== With metta, Howard #74705 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 29, 2007 6:36 am Subject: Listening to the Dhamma, Ch 7, no 3. nilovg Dear friends, With regard to virtue as performance, we read about the courteous conduct of the Bodhisatta towards those who deserved respect. He was assisting others, he was fulfilling his duties, he helped people in explaining Dhamma. He was contented with little and saw danger in the slightest faults. We may forget that síla has many more aspects apart from observing the five precepts. Síla leads to tranquillity, happiness and absence of remorse. Síla also includes guarding the six doors with sati (indriya saÿvara síla). When we experience a pleasant object through one of the senses attachment is likely to arise, and when we experience an unpleasant object, aversion is likely to arise. When there is awareness of nåma and rúpa, no matter whether we experience a pleasant object or an unpleasant object, the doorways are guarded, there is no akusala citta on account of the object which is experienced. The last day of our sessions, at the airport of Chiangmai, I remarked to Acharn Sujin that it is very difficult to practise patience and kindness towards a person who behaves to us in a disagreeable way. Acharn Sujin answered that one needs unpleasant situations to practise the perfections. If there is no unpleasant situation how can one develop them? We read in the Commentary, the “Paramatthadípaní” about the Bodhisattas practice of patience when he considered the following: “If there were no wrong-doers, how could I accomplish the perfection of patience?” And: “Although he is a wrong-doer now, in the past he was my benefactor.” And: “A wrong-doer is also a benefactor, for he is the basis for the developing of patience.” In the ultimate sense there is no “other person” who is disagreeable and no self to whom he is disagreeable. The Bodhisatta considered about this: “All those dhammas by which wrong was done, and those to whom it was done —all those, at this very moment, have ceased. With whom, then, should you now be angry, and by whom should anger be aroused? When all dhammas are not-self, who can do wrong to whom?” ******* Nina. #74706 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 29, 2007 6:31 am Subject: Conditions Ch 9, no 1. nilovg Dear friends, Chapter 9 Prenascence-Condition (Purejåta-Paccaya) and Postnascence-Condition (Pacchajåta- Paccaya) Phenomena can condition other phenomena by way of conascence (sahajåta-paccaya), by way of prenascence (purejåta-paccaya) or by way of postnascence (pacchajåta-paccaya). In the case of conascence- condition, a conditioning phenomenon (paccaya dhamma) arises together with the phenomenon it conditions (paccayupanna dhamma). In the case of prenascence-condition, a phenomenon has arisen prior to the phenomenon it conditions. In the case of postnascence-condition, a phenomenon conditions another phenomenon which has arisen prior to itself and has not fallen away yet. As to prenascence-condition, purejåta-paccaya, this is twofold: base- prenascence-condition and object-prenascence-condition. The rúpas which are bases (vatthus) condition the cittas which are dependent on them by way of prenascence, purejåta-paccaya. As we have seen (in Ch 6), the rúpas which are the sense-bases condition the cittas which are dependent on those bases by way of dependence- condition, nissaya-paccaya. These realities, the rúpas which are bases and the cittas which are dependent on them, are the same as the realities involved in base-prenascence-dependence-condition. However, they are treated separately under prenascence-condition with the purpose of showing that the conditioning realities have arisen prior to the conditioned realities. Seeing arises at the eye-base (cakkhu-vatthu). This rúpa which is the eye-sense (cakkhu pasåda-rúpa) and which has the capacity to receive visible object, is produced by kamma. Rúpa cannot function as base at its arising moment, since it is then too weak. It can only function as base after its arising moment, thus at the time when it is present. It cannot be base either at its dissolution moment. Rúpa lasts longer than citta. When we compare its duration with the duration of citta, rúpa lasts as long as seventeen moments of citta [1]. Thus, the rúpa which can function as eye-base has to arise before seeing-consciousness, and when seeing-consciousness arises it is still present. Kamma keeps on producing this rúpa throughout our life, also when there is no seeing. It produces all the rúpas which can function as base throughout life, there never is any lack of them. ---------- 1. A sense object which is rúpa and which is experienced by several cittas arising in a sense-door process lasts as long as seventeen moments of citta. When we are more precise, we can divide one moment of citta into three extremely short periods: its arising moment (uppåda khana), the moment of its presence (titthi khana) and its dissolution moment (bhanga khana). When we take these three periods of citta into consideration, the duration of rúpa is, compared to the duration of citta, three times seventeen, thus, fiftyone moments. Rúpa has after its arising moment fortynine moments of presence and then there is its dissolution moment. ******* Nina. #74707 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 29, 2007 6:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions, Ch 8, no 8. nilovg Hi Howard and Ken, Op 29-jul-2007, om 14:58 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > What IS a concept, Nina? Do any of us agree on that? Thinking occurs. > It is a reality. And it enables us to deal with intricate relations > holding > among paramattha dhammas. It *seems* to project things called > "concepts," but > all there is is the thinking, it seems to me. -------- N: A concept is that which is not citta, cetasika, rupa or nibbaana. Before, in former posts, we dealt with the fact that there are many types of concept. See Survey of Paramattha Dhammas, the chapter on concepts, especially p. 253. Not only ideas of the conventional world are concepts, also names and terms are concepts. But if there were no thinking of a concept there would not be a concept. I agree that thinking is a paramattha dhamma and concept is not. We cannot say: all there is is thinking, because the object of thinking can be a concept or conventional truth. You say: < What we call realm of birth is actually a realm of experience. > I would say: The realm of birth conditions our experiences. The patthaana gives concepts such as a place as a natural decisive support-condition, but this becomes understandable if we remember that without thinking there could not be any concept. I think that this is allowable and if we go into this too much we make things too complicated. ------- Nina. #74708 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jul 29, 2007 6:53 am Subject: [dsg] Re: What is the wrong view? (References from the MN anthology) indriyabala Hi Larry and Jon (attn: Han Tun)- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" wrote: > > Hi Jon, > > Larry: "Do these discussions lead to nibbana?" > > Jon: "Do these discussions help in the development of the path? I >believe they do. (What's your view on this?)" > > L: It's complicated and doesn't really follow the structure >of "right view, wrong view, right > path, wrong path". For example, as Nina was discussing in another thread akusala can condition the arising of kusala. >If we cling to a view or only understand it conceptually then it > is akusala and necessarily wrong view and wrong path. But that >wrongness can be recognized and that recognition is right view and >right path. In that sense anything can be a condition for the >development of the path insofar as anything can be correctly >identified. But I would add that a merely conceptual view can also >condition the arising of faith and faith can be a beginning long >before there is any direct recognition of concept and reality. T: What you have added about "faith" is excellent, Larry. The importance of saddha in the Teachings is often overlooked. Good listening (to the teachings of noble disciples) is a nutriment (aahara) for saddha. Fully-developed saddha is the nutriment for yoniso-manasikara. And we all know how important yoniso-manasikara is! Tep === #74709 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Sun Jul 29, 2007 7:16 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (64) nichiconn Dear Friends, RD: http://digital.library.upenn.edu/women/davids/psalms/psalms.html Pruitt: PTS 1999 - The Commentary on the Verses of the Theriis txt: vri 11. Dvaadasakanipaato XI. The Section of the Group of Twelve [Verses] 1. Uppalava.n.naatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa 1. The commentary on the verses of Therii Uppalava.n.naa part 1 of 24 txt: Dvaadasakanipaate ubho maataa ca dhiitaa caati-aadikaa uppalava.n.naaya theriyaa gaathaa. Ayampi padumuttarassa bhagavato kaale ha.msavatiinagare kulagehe nibbattitvaa vi~n~nuta.m patvaa, mahaajanena saddhi.m satthu santika.m gantvaa, dhamma.m su.nantii satthaara.m eka.m bhikkhuni.m iddhimantaana.m agga.t.thaane .thapenta.m disvaa sattaaha.m buddhappamukhassa bhikkhusa"nghassa mahaadaana.m datvaa ta.m thaanantara.m patthesi. Saa yaavajiiva.m kusala.m katvaa devamanussesu.m sa.msarantii kassapabuddhakaale baaraa.nasinagare kikissa kaasira~n~no gehe pa.tisandhi.m gahetvaa sattanna.m bhaginiina.m abbhantaraa hutvaa viisativassasahassaani brahmacariya.m caritvaa bhikkhusa"nghassa parive.na.m katvaa devaloke nibbattaa. Pruitt: In the section of twelve [verses], the verses beginning The two of us, mother and daughter are Therii Uppalava.n.naa's. She too at the time of the Blessed One Padumuttara was born in a good family in the town of Ha.msavatii.* After she came of age, she heard the Doctrine in the presence of the Teacher. Seeing the Teacher place a certain bhikkhunii in the foremeost position of those possessing supernormal powers, she mad a great offering for seven days to the Order of Bhikkhus with the Buddha at the head and aspired to that position. She performed good actions throughout her life, and journeying on among devas and men, at the time of Buddha Kassapa, she obtained rebirth in the town of Baaraa.nasi in the home of Kikii, the king of Kaasi. She was one of seven sisters who led the holy life for twenty thousand years. She had a monastery made for the Order of Bhikkhus and was born in a deva world. *Her story given here is almost word-for-word the same as Mp I 245-356 (WL 532-552). RD: SHE, too, was born, when Padumuttara was Buddha, at the city Ha.msavatii, in a clansman's family. And, when grown up, she heard, with a great multitude, the Master teach, and assign a certain Bhikkhunii the chief place among those who had mystic potency. *318 And she gave great gifts for seven days to the Buddha and the Order, and aspired to that same rank. . . . *318 Iddhi. NOTE. - Four gaathaa's ascribed to this famous Sister are, in the Therigaathaa, recorded without break. The Commentary breaks them up into four episodes. In the first, a merchant's wife at Saavatthii, about to bear her first child in her husband's prolonged absence on business at Raajagaha, is turned out by his mother, who disbelieves the wife's fidelity. She seeking her husband, and delivered of a son at a wayside bungalow, another merchant carries off the babe in her absence, and adopts it. A robber-chief finds the distracted mother, and she bears him a daughter. This child she accidentally injures, and flees from the chief's wrath. Years after her son, yet a youth, weds both mother and daughter, ignorant of the kinship. The mother discovers the scar on her daughter's head, and identifies her rival as her own child. ===tbc, connie. #74710 From: Dieter Möller Date: Sun Jul 29, 2007 6:58 am Subject: question from a hermit moellerdieter Hi Sarah , All, recently I got in touch with a Burmese forest monk , who is usually residing in the western region of the country and recommended to inform himself about popular Abhidhamma sources of the web too, in particular Acharn Sujin's teaching. He asked for passing following question to her , which - I learnt meanwhile from Sarah- may be difficult to manage in a direct way and perhaps better discussed within the forum before taking the option of contacting her. I typed the document (tiff) for your consideration . Due to lack of internet facilities at the Ven. 's place, it is not possible to clarify any points without a disruption of several weeks (his brother-in-law supports the communication) quote: This is written just a a few hours ago before I leave Yangon. When I come to know that a Thai lady is probably the most popular Abhidhamma teacher in the world wide web. There is a question about Patthana I would like to ask. Will you pass the question to her? And if you can , please pass the answer back to me with e-or conventional way. I do not know how to reach her. There is a commentary, it says that Teza (of rupa) makes a new Utuzarupa. If so, in 24 paccaya, by which paccaya realtion's take place here? Some quote sahazarta paccaya which within my knowledge cannot be identidied as sahazarta paccaya related rupa via narma, narma via rupa, narma via narma, narma via rupa, and narma via narmarupa. The above is rupa via narma. Some quote to atthi or avigata paccaya. It can be unapproriate to point these paccaya also as there is no rupa via rupa paccaya in them. Even when so, rupa via rupa paccaya show in atthi or avigata paccaya, they show the relation of each present. They do have relations but one does not make one to appear. In other words , rupa via rupa in atthi or avigata paccaya show the relation between them. They do not make one of each to make another one. Tezo (of rupa) makes a new rupa. Here means tezo makes a new rupa, utuzarupa. Some said it might applied to arharrathi (kind of ararrati-athi). In that rupa makes another rupa ( i.e. one oza makes aharra while the maker is still present). So as one rupa makes another when it is also present in the paccaya, the above question might be applied to arahatthi. But as the above notation tezo via utuzarup, it is not directly present in a way to that of arharra paccaya, most scholar did not dare the above notation into context. But as we know , the Abhidhamma we can read from the scriptures now is not in the vast form. It is a mediate form which is a sermon from Sariputtarar, who learnt the short form from Buddha . So in the vast Abhidhamma form which is preach in devas world, might consist of the tezo-utuzarupa directly. But of course Buddha knows best. unquote Please advise what to pass to the Venerable. with Metta Dieter #74711 From: "Larry" Date: Sun Jul 29, 2007 8:17 am Subject: Re: What is the wrong view? (References from the MN anthology) lbidd2 Hi Jon, J: "As far as I understand, there may be correct conceptual understanding (for example, (a) that taking the property of another when it has not been given is to be avoided, or (b) that what we take for people and things are only elements) arising without panna that is nonetheless kusala." L: What kind of consciousness would that be? The only possibilities I can think of are consciousnesses rooted in generosity (alobha) or rooted in loving-kindness (adosa). To understand anything requires either panna or ditthi as far as I understand (???). Larry #74712 From: "Larry" Date: Sun Jul 29, 2007 8:32 am Subject: [dsg] Re: What is the wrong view? (References from the MN anthology) lbidd2 Hi Tep, T: "The importance of saddha in the Teachings is often overlooked. Good listening (to the teachings of noble disciples) is a nutriment (aahara) for saddha. Fully-developed saddha is the nutriment for yoniso-manasikara. And we all know how important yoniso-manasikara is!" L: This is a good way of looking at bhavana. I don't have time to look now, but I wonder how this progression compares with the Path Of Purification. Does sila begin with wise attention? Larry #74713 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Jul 29, 2007 8:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] e-card from America buddhatrue Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > .... > S: Is it on the net, I wonder? James: I don't think so, but when I return to Taiwan I may type it out and post it in installments. I find it to be a very excellent overview- succinct, informational, and inspiring. > > When I lived in London (in the 70s), the temple which I had most contact > with was the Sri Lankan one at Chiswick where Ven Saddhatissa was the Head > Monk. He was a real Pali scholar and has translated many texts, but was > most approachable and always very kind to me and gave Jon and I blessings > and a nice talk after our marriage. He was always pleased to hear about my > interest in Abhidhamma, receive copies of Nina's books at the temple and > invited me and later A.Sujin to give talks at the temple. (KS asked Jon to > give the second one instead of her!) James: Thanks for your wonderful reflections on your past temple participation! I do find that regularly going to a Buddhist temple, even if you go with no purpose in mind and just to hang out, to be very nuturing to Buddhist practice (purification of action and mind). Do you regularly attend a Buddhist temple in Hong Kong? If so, what is it like? > > Anyway, I'm glad you found time to visit your temple and hope you, > Sebastien and your family enjoy the rest of your stay. > > Thx for keeping in touch. James: Sure, no problem. Thanks for your response. :-) > > Metta, > > Sarah Metta, James #74714 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Jul 29, 2007 10:19 am Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge scottduncan2 Dear Tep, Thanks for your reply. Sorry again for the delay in responding. T: "...In order that I may explain how I understand the use of 'paripuuraa' and 'paripuurenti' in AN 10.61, let's look back at the Pali text you kindly gave in the previous post. Let me focus on the passage about the feeding seven bojjhangas and the fed vijja & vimutti as follows... 'Satta bojjha"ngaa paripuuraa vijjaavimutti.m paripuurenti. Evametissaa vijjaavimuttiyaa aahaaro hoti. Eva~nca paripuuri'. 'When the seven factors for awakening are brought to fulfillment, they fulfill [the conditions for] clear knowing & release. Thus is clear knowing & release fed, thus is it brought to fulfillment.' "Here the seven bojjhangas are 'paccayo' -- in the nutriment sense -- for vijja & vimutti to arise. However, when and only when the seven bojjhangas are fully developed (brought to completion, paripuuraa) they become the condition (or potential, like the potential of a magnetic field to induce current flows in a coil. The stronger the field strength, the stronger is the current flow.) for vijja & vimutti to be fully developed -- just like 'when the big rivers are full, they fill the great ocean, and thus is the great ocean fed, thus is it filled..'" Scott: The seven bojjhangas are: "...mindfulness (sati), investigation of the Law (dhamma-vicaya), energy (viriya), rapture (piiti), repose (passaddhi), concentration (samaadhi) and equanimity (upekhaa)..." (pasted from PTS PED). It would seem that each of the seven factors for awakening are like the small streams which flow into the larger water. I'd guess that these all develop in an inter-related fashion, nothing is actually separate. What place to do you see that samaadhi has in this process of development? In fact, I notice that piiti is also mentioned. What is the development of piiti? How does this fit in? Are these, as I surmise, factors which contribute to the quality of the mental body from moment to moment? Sincerely, Scott. #74715 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Jul 29, 2007 10:55 am Subject: Re: What is the wrong view? (References from the MN anthology) scottduncan2 Dear Jon, Thanks for the reply: J: "...'[T]he right view of insight which understands wrong view as an object'. Wrong view has to be seen as it is in order for right view to develop. Our natural inclination is to deny, justify, rationalise, etc, what would to any 'objective observer' be obvious wrong view, since it is the nature of wrong view to be 'right' (otherwise it wouldn't be a 'view'). This is why it is so pernicious...The right view of insight which ... understands right view by exercising the function of comprehension and by clearing away confusion". And right view which arises has to be recognised as right view, i.e., as distinct from other surrounding moments that are not right view." Scott: This is almost like a version of the old 'chicken and egg' paradox, isn't it? It would have to depend solely on conditions for any level of pa~n~na to arise at all and breach the cycle in even a small way. This is the rarety of such an event, I'd guess. For any of us to be even considering the Dhamma in our own ways here is quite remarkable, given how pernicious and encompassing wrong view is. I'd like you to say more about this, but don't quite have a question in mind... Thanks, Jon. Sincerely, Scott. #74716 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Jul 29, 2007 11:04 am Subject: Re: Mindfulness of Walking scottduncan2 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Scott, > > --------- > S: impossible to really see when the > view is occluded by an underlying idea of self. I think that this > underlying idea is rooted in lobha. > ---------- > N: As Jon said: texts are not be > compared with the deeply held views that a person comes into this > world with and which presumably remain part of the person's > accumulated tendencies regardless of his/her exposure to the > teachings in this lifetime.> > So, it is very difficult to see when one has wrong view of self. Only > through satipatthaana can it be known. There is often conceit, maana. > We find ourselves so important. I think that only after the first > stage of tender insight (knowing the difference between nama and > rupa) can we know more clearly when there is wrong view, and when > conceit. Now we do not even know naama as naama. > As Kh Sujin said: from seeing and this has to occur before the realization of the > arising and falling away of realities.> > -------- > S: With the sense that 'I' study, 'I' come to conclusions, 'I' think for > 'myself', 'I am' open-minded, 'I am' learning things, 'I discuss' > things, etc., there is an experience of being a part of these actions > - of an identification with them. They are claimed and subsumed > under the idea of self - but this is just part of experience, perhaps > not even thought about. And this is obscuration. > > It is just seeing and thinking. It rolls on. .. > ------- > N: This is very well explained. > ---------- > > Scott: Yes, no one clings, there is just clinging and it has this > quality and this quality alone - no other. Once this is experienced > and known then this is not taken for self - it is clinging. > ------ > N: even when the first stage of insight is not reached yet, it is > helpful to know more about clinging and the moments there is clinging. > I heard this on a Thai tape: Dear Nina, Thank you very much for the reply. I especially appreciate: N: "...With regard to mindfulness of Body, kaayanupassana satipatthaana, there is no self who knows this rupa and then that rupa. When sati is aware of hardness there is no self, the body as a whole, from head to toes, does not appear. Sound does not appear at that moment. When hardness appears, atta-sa~n~naa, the wrong remembrance of self, that has been accumulated, cannot let go yet of the idea of self, or of self who knows. But when hardness appears that characteristic can be considered as non-self. It is a long time practice, ciira kaala bhaavanaa. Realities arise and pass away very rapidly. The object of sati arises and falls away very fast and then there is thinking of hardness, of a flower. After sati has fallen away, there are many moments without sati. >" Scott: I was struck by this. Considering the moment itself - say that moment when sati is aware of hardness - there is nothing else at this moment. As is mentioned, no self, no 'body', no sound, nor presence of any other reality - just hardness. This reminds me, in a round-about way, of the descriptions of true jhaana, where the concentration on the object prevents any other experience to intrude. In the moment, as described, this is the same, but just for an instant. This seems to be a description of the function of momentary samaadhi, and this is but a template or momentary version of the much discussed jhaana. Please subject the above speculation to stringent criticism. Sincerely, Scott. #74717 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 29, 2007 11:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Walking nilovg Dear Scott, Op 29-jul-2007, om 20:04 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: > Please subject the above speculation to stringent criticism. --------- N: Ha,ha, you made me laugh very much! That is lobha, and I name it. Naming realities is not awareness of them. Another good reminder of Kh Sujin. ---------- S: Considering the moment itself - say that moment when sati is aware of hardness - there is nothing else at this moment. As is mentioned, no self, no 'body', no sound, nor presence of any other reality - just hardness. This reminds me, in a round-about way, of the descriptions of true jhaana, where the concentration on the object prevents any other experience to intrude. In the moment, as described, this is the same, but just for an instant. This seems to be a description of the function of momentary samaadhi, and this is but a template or momentary version of the much discussed jhaana. ------- N: It shows that each citta can have only one object at a time. No matter it is the citta with awareness of a reality, or jhanacitta which hits the meditation subject again and again. When we are thinking of the world this is a whole of impressions but when there is awareness of only one reality as it appears through one doorway only, it is different. Gradually we can learn the difference between citta with sati and citta without sati, as Kh Sujin reminds us. -------- Nina. #74718 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jul 29, 2007 7:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Walking upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 7/29/07 2:32:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Gradually we can learn the difference > between citta with sati and citta without sati, as Kh Sujin reminds us. > =================== I think of citta without sati, i.e. knowing without mindfulness, as like a man walking with his girlfriend and whose attention can be easily led away by the sight of any pretty, passing female. Knowing without mindfulness is a vulnerable knowing - shaky, fragile, easily disrupted. With metta, Howard #74719 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 29, 2007 12:05 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Walking nilovg Hi Howard, Op 29-jul-2007, om 20:50 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Knowing without mindfulness is a > vulnerable knowing - shaky, fragile, easily disrupted. ------- N: Mindfulness does not last, it is just a moment, and of course it will be disrupted all the time. But that one moment, when it is correct mindfulness, can be accumulated so that arises again, later on. Beyond control!! Nina. #74720 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 29, 2007 12:19 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] question from a hermit nilovg Dear Dieter, the venerable one writes a z, but this stands for j. Tejo (heat) in a kalapa, group of ruupas, can produce again another ruupa, utu which also means heat. For example, at the first moment of human life kamma produces the rebirth-consciousness and also tree kalapas of ten ruupas, one with body-sense, one with heart-base, one with sex. The ruupa which is heat, utu, does not produce any other ruupa, at the arising moment of rebirth-consciousness. But at the moment of presence of rebirth-consciousness, the ruupa of heat (tejo) that is present in each kalapa (it is one of the four great Elements) begins to produce in its turn other kalapas with heat and it does so throughout life. There is only one condition by which rupa conditions another rupa: sahajata-paccaya (sahazarta-paccaya). It has to be by way of conascence. Nina. Op 29-jul-2007, om 15:58 heeft Dieter Möller het volgende geschreven: > There is a commentary, it says that Teza (of rupa) makes a new > Utuzarupa. If so, in 24 paccaya, by which paccaya realtion's take > place here? #74721 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jul 29, 2007 8:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Walking upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 7/29/07 3:09:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > Op 29-jul-2007, om 20:50 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > > >Knowing without mindfulness is a > >vulnerable knowing - shaky, fragile, easily disrupted. > ------- > N: Mindfulness does not last, it is just a moment, and of course it > will be disrupted all the time. But that one moment, when it is > correct mindfulness, can be accumulated so that arises again, later > on. Beyond control!! > Nina. > > ========================= So, what then is becoming distracted? What is loss of attention? And what is the opposite? And when mindfulness exists, for just a moment as you say, what is happening? What does it mean to say that mindfulness is in effect at that moment? What exactly is different at that moment? (If it cannot be spelled out what it is, then the concept is of no use.) With metta, Howard #74722 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jul 29, 2007 9:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Walking upasaka_howard Hi again Nina - I had written the following about mindfulness that you seemed to think somehow missed the matter: "I think of citta without sati, i.e. knowing without mindfulness, as like a man walking with his girlfriend and whose attention can be easily led away by the sight of any pretty, passing female. Knowing without mindfulness is a vulnerable knowing - shaky, fragile, easily disrupted." But then I found the following about mindfulness, which makes me think I wasn't so very far off base: _________________________________ Like balancing a pot of oil on one's head "Suppose, monks, that a large crowd of people comes thronging together, sa ying, 'The beauty queen! The beauty queen!' And suppose that the beauty queen is highly accomplished at singing & dancing, so that an even greater crowd comes thronging, saying, 'The beauty queen is singing! The beauty queen is dancing!' Then a man comes along, desiring life & shrinking from death, desiring pleasure & abhorring pain. They say to him, 'Now look here, mister. You must take this bowl filled to the brim with oil and carry it on your head in between the great crowd & the beauty queen. A man with a raised sword will follow right behind you, and wherever you spill even a drop of oil, right there will he cut off your head.' Now what do you think, monks: Will that man, not paying attention to the bowl of oil, let himself get distracted outside?" "No, lord." "I have given you this parable to convey a meaning. The meaning is this: The bowl filled to the brim with oil stands for mindfulness immersed in the body. Thus you should train yourselves: 'We will develop mindfulness immersed in the body. We will pursue it, hand it the reins and take it as a basis, give it a grounding, steady it, consolidate it, and undertake it well.' That is how you should train yourselves."— SN 47.20 ---------------------------------------------- The objection you had to what I wrote, Nina, was expressed by "Mindfulness does not last, it is just a moment, and of course it will be disrupted all the time." But depending on what is meant by "a moment," I have a problem with this. Mindfulness is an operation, a mental activity. Every mental activity requires time for it to function. No operation takes place within zero time, and that includes mindfulness. At every instant of a period during which mindfulness is in effect, nondistractedness or "staying present" distinguishes the mindstate. But within zero time, this loses all meaning. ========================= With metta, Howard #74723 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jul 29, 2007 11:01 am Subject: Another Observation about Mindfulness upasaka_howard Hi, Nina & all - The more I think about it, the more I wonder whether the mindfulness spoken of by the Buddha in the suttas is the same as that dealt with in the Abhidhamma (or at least as interpreted by some). In the Anapanasati Sutta, in describing the very outset of meditating on the breath, the Buddha says the following: "Now how is mindfulness of in-&-out breathing developed & pursued so as to be of great fruit, of great benefit? "There is the case where a monk, having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building, sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect, and setting mindfulness to the fore. Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out. This is how one begins: immediately setting mindfulness to the fore and then remaining mindful. Such mindfulness must not be something very rare and esoteric, because one is to immediately be mindful. It seems to me that this is simple instruction to *pay attention* and to continue to do so. This is not a description of a single-moment phenomenon that may, on rare occasion, arise and cease. It is a very conventional description of a common mental activity to be engaged in, with a specific application, in order for "mindfulness of in-&-out breathing (to be) developed & pursued." And, BTW, it seems to me that it is no accident that the Buddha speaks of "having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building." That is for the purpose of minimizing distraction, to make it easier to maintain mindfulness. With metta, Howard #74724 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jul 29, 2007 3:27 pm Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge indriyabala Dear Scott (and Larry), - Please feel free to reply to me only when you are not too busy. No need to apologize for a delay. It is fine even if you choose not to reply. Scott: it would seem that each of the seven factors for awakening are like the small streams which flow into the larger water. I'd guess that these all develop in an inter-related fashion, nothing is actually separate. T: I agee to some extent. The development of the vijja & vimutti is a complex process that consists of sequential, inter-related, and feeding backward and forward sub-processes (one of them is the sub- process of bojjhanga factors development). The analogy of the flow of streams into rivers and then into the big ocean, I think, applies at the beginning of the development process that starts after one has fully developed saddha in the Teachings after having listened very well to a noble disciple (that initialization may be compared to the heavy rainfall event). There were cases in the suttas where extremely good listening turned one-time listeners into arahants. Such a transformation, of course, began with an extremely good listening that led to great saddha and so on as explained in AN 10.61. I guess the same thing can be said about the initial development of the seven factors for awakening. For example, each factor has its own aahara as stated in SN 46.51, Ahara Sutta. Appropriate attention to these foods causes each factor to grow and increase. Thus it is reasonable to assume that some factors that have their foods (aahara) uncommon with each other can be developed independently. For example, let's examine only the development of sati- and viriya-bojjhanga factors just to get the idea. (Words in the square brackets were the translator's.) ............. "There are mental qualities that act as a foothold for mindfulness as a factor for Awakening [well-purified virtue & views made straight]. To foster appropriate attention to them: This is the food for the arising of unarisen mindfulness as a factor for Awakening, or for the growth & increase of mindfulness as a factor for Awakening once it has arisen." "There is the potential for effort, the potential for exertion, the potential for striving. To foster appropriate attention to them: This is the food for the arising of unarisen persistence as a factor for Awakening, or for the growth & increase of persistence... once it has arisen." [SN 46.51] .............. Scott: What place do you see that samaadhi has in this process of development? T: At the beginning I can see that there is no way all the foods for the seven factors can arise simultaneously in a worldling (they may arise concurrently in an ariyan). Thus it makes sense to me that the seven factors are developed less-dependently and almost separtately at first in any worldling. At a certain stage of development later on some factors will become more inter-related. For example, first, sati and viriya are developed with dhamma-vicaya that lead to piiti and passaddhi before samadhi arises later (who knows when?) We know that sati supports samadhi because the Buddha said that satipatthana is a samadhi nimitta. After sati has been established by the satipatthana bhavana, sati and samaadhi are integrated. L: In fact, I notice that piiti is also mentioned. What is the development of piiti? How does this fit in? Are these, as I surmise, factors which contribute to the quality of the mental body from moment to moment? T: Let's get an analogy from samatha bhavana. We know that piiti and sukha arise in the 1st jhaana along with vitakka-vicara and mental unification. In the second jhaana there is samaadhi with no vitakka and vicara. Then Piiti drops off in the third jhaana. For the same reasoning I would say that samadhi-bojjhanga cannot arise when piiti is present. But you seem to think differently. Do you mean to say that the seven factors are present together all the time, otherwise the quality of mind would suffer? Why so? Thank you for the good questions. I am going to do some reading and pondering over your last question, and will try to do a better job next time. Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Dear Tep, > > Thanks for your reply. Sorry again for the delay in responding. > #74725 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jul 29, 2007 4:39 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: What is the wrong view? (References from the MN anthology) indriyabala Hi Larry (Scott, and Han) - My previous post emphasizes the importance of saddha development, following good listening to the Teachings (taught by noble disciples). T: Fully-developed saddha is the nutriment for yoniso-manasikara. And we all know how important yoniso-manasikara is! L: This is a good way of looking at bhavana. I don't have time to look now, but I wonder how this progression compares with the Path Of Purification. Does sila begin with wise attention? T: Yes. To explain let me go back to AN 10.61 a little bit to get the perspective. AN 10.61 Avijja Sutta "Now, I tell you, clear knowing & release have their nutriment. They are not without nutriment. And what is their nutriment? The seven factors for awakening... And what is the nutriment for the seven factors for awakening? The four frames of reference... And what is the nutriment for the four frames of reference? The three forms of right conduct... And what is the nutriment for the three forms of right conduct? Restraint of the senses... And what is the nutriment for restraint of the senses? Mindfulness & alertness... And what is the nutriment for mindfulness & alertness? Appropriate attention... And what is the nutriment for appropriate attention? Conviction... And what is the nutriment for conviction? Hearing the true Dhamma... And what is the nutriment for hearing the true Dhamma? Associating with people who are truly good... T: It is the same path, Larry. Purification of virtues (siila) is the consequence of having fully developed three kinds of good conducts (sucaritaana) with senses restraint. Witout wise attention there is no sati-sampajjanna to restrain the six senses and to develop the three kusala siila. The other purifications follow when satipatthana, bojjhangas, viija, and vimutti are fully developed and cultivated. I know that people who firmly believe in the single-moment of simultaneous arising of these dhammas will reject what I have just said. But the rare phenomenon in which saddha, yoniso-manasikara, sati-sampajanna, indriya-samvara, sucaritaana, satipatthana, bojjhanga, vijja & vimutti all arise in the same moment after good listening to the Dhamma, is not possible in ordinary worldlings. Tep === #74726 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Jul 29, 2007 7:16 pm Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge scottduncan2 Dear Tep, Thanks for the reply. These are the the dhammas in their order (please check these, I don't know them well and have pasted from Nyanatiloka). Please excuse the redundancy, I'm just trying to learn these: Four satipa.t.thaanaa, four sammapadhaanaa, four iddhipaadaa, five indriyaani, five balaani & the seven bojjhangas and ariya a.t.tha"ngika magga. 1) The four satipa.t.thaanaa are: Contemplation of body, feeling, mind and mental-objects. 2) The four sammapadhaanaa are: The effort to avoid (samvara-padhaana); to overcome (pahaana-padhaana); to develop (bhaavanaa-padhaana); to maintain (anurakkhana-padhaana). 3) The four iddhipaadaa are: Concentration of intention (chanda-samaadhi) accompanied by effort of will (padhaana-sankhaara-samannaagata) Concentration of energy (viriya-samaadhi)... Concentration of consciousness (citta-samaadhi)... Concentration of investigation (vimamsa-samaadhi) accompanied by effort of will. 4)The five indriyaani are: Faith: saddhaa Energy: viriya Awareness or mindfulness:sati Concentration:samaadhi Understanding: pa~n~naa 5) The five balaani are: Faith (saddhaa), energy (viriya), awareness or mindfulness (sati), concentration (samaadhi), understanding (pa~n~naa). "Their particular aspect, distinguishing them from the corresponding 5 spiritual abilities indriya, is that they are unshakable by their opposites..." 6) The seven bojjhangas are: Awareness or mindfulness (sati-sambojjhanga), (sati); investigation of the law (dhamma-vicaya-sambojjhanga); energy (viriya-sambojjhanga, viriya padhaana); rapture (piiti-sambojjhanga); tranquillity (passaddhi-sambojjhanga); concentration (samaadhi-sambojjhanga); equanimity (upekkhaa). T: "...The development of the vijja & vimutti is a complex process that consists of sequential, inter-related, and feeding backward and forward sub-processes (one of them is the sub-process of bojjhanga factors development)." Scott: I'm going to leave the rest of the post for further consideration, and use the above as a guide. Please correct any inaccuracies if you notice them. See you later, Tep. Sincerely, Scott. #74727 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Jul 29, 2007 8:46 pm Subject: Re: Mindfulness of Walking scottduncan2 Dear Nina, Thanks for your critique (ha ha). I'm always appalled when I find I've given an opinion about the Dhamma. Just the facts, ma'am. N: It shows that each citta can have only one object at a time. No matter it is the citta with awareness of a reality, or jhanacitta which hits the meditation subject again and again. When we are thinking of the world this is a whole of impressions but when there is awareness of only one reality as it appears through one doorway only, it is different. Gradually we can learn the difference between citta with sati and citta without sati, as Kh Sujin reminds us." Scott: Citta with sati likely has its own 'flavour' and is, hence, distinguishable; sati has its own experiential 'taste' (an opinion to be censured - don't laugh). One object at a time, one moment of consciousness at a time. Citta with any other mental factor would just be different. Sincerely, Scott. #74728 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Jul 29, 2007 10:22 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What is the wrong view? (References from the MN anthology) lbidd2 Hi Tep, Very interesting. The Avijja Sutta gives a very nice, detailed account of the path in 10 factors: associating with good people > hearing the true dhamma > conviction (saddha) > wise attention > mindfulness and alertness > restraint of the senses > 3 forms of right conduct > four frames of reference (satipatthana?) > 7 factors for awakening > clear knowing and release. Larry #74729 From: "gazita2002" Date: Sun Jul 29, 2007 10:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Samsara gazita2002 Hello Nina, Yes, I am glad, thank you, and in reality there is no Zoe or grandson or me, just the 5 khandhas who/which belong to no-one. I often think of the khandhas - I like to recall that the khandhas is all there is. That they arise temporarily and then cease. I like to fall asleep at night reflecting on the khandhas, it doesnt always happen like that, when it does, it seems to have a calming effect. Patience, courage and good cheer, azita --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Azita, > > Op 28-jul-2007, om 1:39 heeft gazita2002 het volgende geschreven: > > > Well, > > that same 'smll daughter' has just given birth to a small son. I was > > with her when baby was born and decided most definitely that birth is > > dukkha!!!!! > ------- > N: Notwithstanding, I bet you are glad. Congratulations. We still > have clinging, we are in samsara, with all the consequences. > I remember that you were at wits end with Zoe now and then. How she > kept on crying, during the dhamma talks, and also in the train. Her > voice is on my tapes. But now she has grown up to be a nice young > woman who has a son. > Nina. #74730 From: "gazita2002" Date: Sun Jul 29, 2007 10:59 pm Subject: Re: Samsara gazita2002 Hello Connie, thank you for this --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "L G SAGE" wrote: > > So, Grandma, > A rare child.... as per Conditions, Ch 8, no 8 / #74687. "Trifling"! > <...in this Rose-apple Land trifling in number are the pleasant parks,...> May he truly be one of <<... those beings that are winners of the essence of the meaning, the essence of Dhamma, the essence of release: more numerious are those that do not.>> Azita; Yes may he be one of those beings, may we all be one of those beings. > Jambonada is the first word the on-line PED suggests looking up. Trivia? > cheers, > connie Patience, courage and good cheer, azita #74731 From: "gazita2002" Date: Sun Jul 29, 2007 11:00 pm Subject: Re: Samsara gazita2002 Hello Jon, thank you - azita --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Azita > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, > "gazita2002" wrote: > > > > Hello Nina and other friends, > > > > Nina, I found a letter from you that was written many years ago, > late > > 1970's, in which you have mentioned my then, small daughter Zoe. > Well, > > that same 'smll daughter' has just given birth to a small son. I > was > > with her when baby was born and decided most definitely that birth > is > > dukkha!!!!! All is well, thnkfully. > > > > I proceeded to think about future births and thought that I dont > > want to do this again, but we cant stop it, can we. Not until > > arahatship. Even our breathing, it just keeps on until we take our > > last breath and we dont know when that will be. > > So true. It is all beyond our control! > > Jon > > PS Congratulations! > #74732 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Jul 29, 2007 11:03 pm Subject: Re: Conditions, Ch 8, no 8. kenhowardau Hi Nina, I wonder if I am being overly dogmatic when I insist that concepts cannot condition anything. When it comes to object condition and natural decisive support condition it certainly seems that concepts can condition dhammas in those ways. And the texts clearly say that they can. However, with just a few "mental gymnastics" we can see that it is really dhammas that are doing the conditioning - even in those cases. So that's the way I prefer to say it. It is true that a flying purple elephant can condition consciousness by object condition. And yet the mere suggestion that a fictitious creature can do anything is plainly ridiculous. So I prefer not to say it that way. Or I prefer to say, "Yes, a flying purple elephant - or any other concept - can support namas by way of object condition, but, really, it is the namas themselves *by the act of taking that concept as their object* that have done the conditioning." You prefer to stick with the way it is said in the texts, and I would like agree with you. However, in DSG discussions that would be the thin end of the wedge. :-) If we are seen (fairly or unfairly) to be attributing any kind of reality to concepts then why can't we attribute other kinds as well? Ken H #74733 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 29, 2007 11:20 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] question from a hermit, correction. nilovg Dear Dieter, a correction. I wrote: > sahajata-paccaya (sahazarta-paccaya). It has to be by way of > conascence.> Correction: The fact that utu produces another rupa cannot be classified under the twentyfour conditions. Ruupa cannot produce another rupa at its arising moment, it is too weak. Conascence condition refers to rupas arising together, and thus it does not pertain to utuja ruupa. Nina. > #74734 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 29, 2007 11:30 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Conditions, Ch 8, no 8. nilovg Hi Ken, I really see your argument. But I would not like to change the Patthana. I just found something else in U Narada, Guide to Conditional Relations, p. 15. There is a discussion here about concepts as condiitoning dhammas and a book is quoted, the Mohavicchedanii. His conclusion: We should not be so afraid of concepts and conventional truth. Without concepts we cannot lead our daily life and take care of the body. What would you be without concepts. It is important to know the difference between concepts and paramattha dhammas and we should learn what paramattha dhammas are, not just in theory. But if we reject conventional truth all the time there is something unnatural to my feeling. But perhaps you are not doing this. Nina. Op 30-jul-2007, om 8:03 heeft kenhowardau het volgende geschreven: > You prefer to stick with the way it is said in the texts, and I would > like agree with you. However, in DSG discussions that would be the > thin end of the wedge. :-) If we are seen (fairly or unfairly) to be > attributing any kind of reality to concepts then why can't we > attribute other kinds as well? #74735 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 29, 2007 11:43 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Walking nilovg Hi Howard, thank you for the sutta and your remarks which I appreciate. I like this sutta, it is an exhortation not to be forgetful. But nobody can create sati and pa~n~naa for sure. Op 29-jul-2007, om 22:58 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > "Mindfulness does not last, it is just a moment, and of course it > will be disrupted > all the time." But depending on what is meant by "a moment," > I have a problem with this. Mindfulness is an operation, a mental > activity. > Every mental activity requires time for it to function. No > operation takes > place within zero time, and that includes mindfulness. At every > instant of a > period during which mindfulness is in effect, nondistractedness or > "staying > present" distinguishes the mindstate. But within zero time, this > loses all meaning. ---------- N: I think that every mental activity takes place in a moment, the moment that citta lasts, and that is extremely short. When the javanacittas are accompanied by pa~n~naa and sati there are only seven of them and they fall away. A very, very short time. So, it is zero time as you would say. But this is meaningful, do not underestimate accumulation of sati. Sati is not samaadhi, as developed in samatha, concentration on the same meditation subject for some time. In general I would say, it is necessary to ask ourselves: is there any idea of self who wants many moments of sati, and who wants sati to last for some time? It is urgent to find out, otherwise we are in a dangerous situation taking for sati what is not sati. I mean not just you, but all of us. Clinging always follows, we should not forget. We have to be sincere. I have a secret wish that I would like to reach vipassana ~naa.na, even the first stage. But I know this is wrong and counteractive. We should not think of any stages, only of more understanding, that is what really matters, don't you think so? Your remarks are good and food for thought, as always, I think. Nina. #74736 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jul 30, 2007 1:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Conditions, Ch 8, no 8. sarahprocter... Hi Ken H, (Nina & Howard), I've been appreciating all your and Howard's further careful and good considerations on this topic. --- kenhowardau wrote: > It is true that a flying purple elephant can condition consciousness > by object condition. And yet the mere suggestion that a fictitious > creature can do anything is plainly ridiculous. So I prefer not to > say it that way. Or I prefer to say, "Yes, a flying purple elephant - > or any other concept - can support namas by way of object condition, > but, really, it is the namas themselves *by the act of taking that > concept as their object* that have done the conditioning." ... S: As I understand, when we refer to dhammas or concepts as object condition, it is simply to their being the object of the citta that is meant. So when the flying purple elephant is the object of thinking, it is object condition, simply by the fact that it is the object and citta must take an object. Nothing more than that. ***** When it comes to decisive support condition, the only other condition in which concepts are given as 'conditioning factors', there are two aspects I find helpful to consider; 1) When the texts refer to climate, suitable place and so on, it is really a kind of short-hand that is being used to cover a plethora of different experiences, experienced rupas, thoughts about these and so on. Really, there are just the heat, wind and earth elements experienced through the body-sense and then various responses and proliferations accordingly. Nina gave the example given in the comy to the Satipatthana Sutta where the perfect climate for the Kurus was said to be a condition for their being able to listen. As Howard suggested, it's like when we talk about the lute sounds and both your good comments about the realms as also a shorthand for different experiences. As you say, the only realities are the namas and rupas involved. Also in other parts of the Abhidhamma, concepts are often used as a short-hand for various dhammas. For example, under visible object in the Dhammasangani, we read about the visible object of different jewels and so on. 2) The various concepts spoken, thought and imagined have a conditioning power themselves. For example, the more often a baby is introduced to the word and idea of 'mother', the greater the accumulated tendency is to associate the concept with the sounds, visible objects and tactile experiences we call 'mother'. When we hear or dream about purple flying elephants, we all know it's not real, but the idea or the imagery 'sticks' in the mind and conditions the thinking about it later. Thus, by way of 'marking' by sa~n~naa, all kinds of experiencing, including the thinking about various kinds of concepts is accumulated. It's the same when it comes to hearing and wisely considering the dhamma, pariyatti. The concepts about the Dhamma can be a condition for later wise reflecting and direct understanding by the same condition. I think it's good to pursue these good topics and look forward to any further reflections/comments from you or anyone. Metta, Sarah p.s If anyone is inclined, see more under 'Decisive Support Condition' in U.P. =============== #74737 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 30, 2007 1:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Walking nilovg Hi Howard, Thanks for your good questions, straight to the point. Op 29-jul-2007, om 21:16 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > So, what then is becoming distracted? What is loss of attention? And > what is the opposite? > And when mindfulness exists, for just a moment as you say, what is > happening? What does it mean to say that mindfulness is in effect > at that moment? > What exactly is different at that moment? (If it cannot be spelled > out what > it is, then the concept is of no use.) --------- N: I did not see this post when reacting to your other post. Perhaps par is answered already. But I have a look whether I can add something. ------- H: So, what then is becoming distracted? What is loss of attention? And what is the opposite? ------------ N: Also distraction is a dhamma, it is conditioned. There are bound to be akusala cittas, often with clinging to the objects experienced through the six doors and to concepts. As to attention, then there is unwise attention, ayoniso manasikaara. The opposite is kusala citta and then there is wise attention. But a differentiation has to be made: kusala citta is always accompanied by sati, but not necessarily by sati of the level of satipatthana. ----------- H: And when mindfulness exists, for just a moment as you say, what is happening? What does it mean to say that mindfulness is in effect at that moment? -------- N: There is direct awareness, without thinking, of any reality appearing through one of the six doors, and at that moment pa~n~naa can begin to know that characteristic as just dhamma. This means: as a conditioned reality that is not created by anyone. I understand that this is very essential, that sati and pa~n~naa have to arise together. Otherwise there is no development or growth of pa~n~naa, and this is the goal. When heat appears, no other reality appears at the same time as object of sati. And the object is not a whole of different impressions, such as; the world, this or that person or animal, my hand, my body. -------- H: What exactly is different at that moment? (If it cannot be spelled out what it is, then the concept is of no use.) ---------- N: The proof of the pudding is in the eating. When sati of satipatthana arises it can be known that this is different from our usual forgetfulness of realities. There is no other way. Only then can we know the difference between the moments with sati and without sati. Above all we have to remember that sati is also an element that cannot be controlled. As you know, I mean that there are conditions, but no person who can do anything. You find that hard to accept, don't you? Then you are not alone. Nina. #74738 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jul 30, 2007 1:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: satipatthana as island of refuge sarahprocter... Hi Tep, --- Tep Sastri wrote: > T: It is clear that when covetousness, grief, and any hindrances > arise during satipatthana bhavana, they are abandoned in that moment > (e.g. by suppression). However, the context of AN 10.61 is clearly > about sequential development of the various dhammas, starting > from 'sappurisasa.msevotissa' and ending > with 'vijjaavimuttimpaha.m'. .... S: I agree with you that we need to check the context of each sutta. I don't have the AN sutta to hand, but I agree with you that it is the association with the right view of the wise that leads to emancipation (through the development of panna). This development doesn't occur in a moment, but through a very long process of pariyatti, patipatti and eventually pativedha. I appreciate your discussions with Scott and others on related topics. In the context of another sutta you've quoted on saddha as support, I see saddha as being a support for all kusala by its nature of arising with all kusala. At such moments, there is confidence in 'good', don't you think? [Apologies for breaking off threads with you and others or for being slower even than usual to respond while we're travelling and I have limited internet use.] Metta, Sarah ======= #74739 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jul 30, 2007 1:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Response to E-card from Bangkok 3 (4) sarahprocter... Dear Han & all, --- han tun wrote: > Sarah: > - Prayer beads. By tradition? In the Buddha's time? > What about understanding? For protection? For results? > Akusala? > --------------------- > > Han: > - This has reference to my message # 73389 describing > how I use prayer beads in my Recollection of the Nine > Attributes of the Buddha, as a follow-up to James' > presentations on the Recollection of the Buddha. <..> > - For protection? For results? I cannot answer this on > behalf of other people, but as far as I am concerned, > the answewr is yes, and no. Yes, I had often used the > prayer beads for protection and for results, during my > younger years, but not anymore now. Now, I am using > the prayer beads in recollecting the Nine Attributes > of the Buddha, to enhance my concentration in paying > my tributes to the Buddha. ... S: I was interested to listen to the discussion. As soon as you gave a brief description of your habit (just as you did here), A.Sujin really 'pounced', asking the questions above and more. Why does she do this instead of just giving some gentle, encouraging comments like the ones below, you might ask. The reason is that whenever it seems that someone is following a particular practice in order 'to enhance concentration', in order to have particular kinds of wise reflection arise and so on, she sees it as indicative of a wrong path which is likely to 'accumulate' and prevent the right path from arising. In other words, instead of just beng aware and developing understanding of what has been conditioned already, so often we are concerned to follow some path which we think will bring a particular result, such as more calmness, concentration or wisdom, but which in fact may just bring more attachment. I think at the time you partially agreed, but I know you have misgivings about whether this is really the path as taught by the Buddha, i.e the practice of just understanding the present namas and rupas appearing as opposed to following particular activities. Thanks for your other interesting and helpful comments, Han. Also for your further reflections on the 'simple approach' and Dhp verse. Metta, Sarah > - Akusala? I do not think that the use of prayer beads > is akusala. > -------------------- > > - In this connection, I like very much Nina's > comments. In her meaasge # 73464, she wrote: > > "Why would prayer beads be wrong? There is no rule. > You could also be mindful of motion, pressure or any > other reality appearing when you press the beads. That > is the highest respect to the Buddha we can give, > because satipatthana is his teaching." > > I thank Nina, once again, for her kind advice. <...> #74740 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Jul 30, 2007 2:12 am Subject: Re: What is the wrong view? (References from the MN anthology) jonoabb Hi Larry --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" wrote: > > Hi Jon, > > J: "As far as I understand, there may be correct conceptual understanding > (for example, (a) that taking the property of another when it has not > been given is to be avoided, or (b) that what we take for people and > things are only elements) arising without panna that is nonetheless > kusala." > > L: What kind of consciousness would that be? The only possibilities I can think of are > consciousnesses rooted in generosity (alobha) or rooted in loving- kindness (adosa). To > understand anything requires either panna or ditthi as far as I understand (???). Yes, it would have to be rooted in either alobha, adosa or amoha, or a combination of these, since these are the 3 roots of all kusala cittas (BTW, 'ditthi' as in 'samma ditthi' is panna cetasika, aka amoha). I am not sure that if one is listening to and 'appreciating', say, a talk about the importance of kusala that there is necessarily panna arising, in which case the citta would be rooted in alobha and adosa but not amoha. Just my thoughts. Others may see it differently. Corrections welcome. Jon #74741 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Jul 30, 2007 2:24 am Subject: Re: What is the wrong view? (References from the MN anthology) jonoabb Hi Scott --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Dear Jon, > > Thanks for the reply: > > J: "...'[T]he right view of insight which understands wrong view as an > object'. Wrong view has to be seen as it is in order for right view > to develop. Our natural inclination is to deny, justify, > rationalise, etc, what would to any 'objective observer' be obvious > wrong view, since it is the nature of wrong view to be 'right' > (otherwise it wouldn't be a 'view'). This is why it is so > pernicious...The right view of insight which ... understands right > view by exercising the function of comprehension and by clearing away > confusion". And right view which arises has to be recognised as > right view, i.e., as distinct from other surrounding moments that are > not right view." > > Scott: This is almost like a version of the old 'chicken and egg' > paradox, isn't it? It would have to depend solely on conditions for > any level of pa~n~na to arise at all and breach the cycle in even a > small way. This is the rarety of such an event, I'd guess. For any > of us to be even considering the Dhamma in our own ways here is quite > remarkable, given how pernicious and encompassing wrong view is. I'd > like you to say more about this, but don't quite have a question in > mind... Fortunately for us, hearing the teachings and reflecting on what has been heard can condition the arising of panna (bearing in mind that there must be a certain level of panna accumulated already) thereby breaching the cycle no matter how weakly and imperceptibly. Furthermore, it is not as though wrong view prevails all the time that right view is not present. The all-pervasive sense of a world of people and things does not necessarily involve a 'view' about the way things are; it may merely involve a mis-percpetion (in the sense of mis-remembrance) of what is being experienced at the time. So the situation is not as hopeless as it might at first appear ;-)). Jon #74742 From: Dieter Möller Date: Mon Jul 30, 2007 5:31 am Subject: question from a hermit moellerdieter Dear Nina, thanks for your kind attention! I have passed your message and recommended for further questions a direct contact with DSG. with Metta Dieter #74743 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 30, 2007 5:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Another Observation about Mindfulness nilovg Hi Howard, from another post of yours I remember that you have made a thorough study of this subject as explained in the Visuddhimagga, where these tetrads are dealt with. As to the first tetrad, you remember that that person who practised thus became already an arahat. And, as Jon said before: here the Buddha adressed people who were already very skilfull with this subject. With regard to this subject, I wrote: The Visuddhimagga then mentions all the different stages of insight (Visuddhimagga VIII, 223 -225). We then read: You see, they had to develop all the stages of insight. They became arahats. Nowadays, we are different, don't you think? Long ago Jon wrote this post to you and perhaps after a time we may read a post differently, interesting to observe: < Now how is mindfulness of in-&-out breathing developed & pursued so as to bring the four frames of reference to their culmination? "There is the case where a monk, having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building, sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect, and setting mindfulness to the fore. Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out..." This sets the context for what follows, including the passage discussed at 1/. above. I would like to focus on some particular aspects of this introductory section. Again, a breakdown may be helpful: (a) *There is the case where* a monk, (b) *having gone to the wilderness*, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building, sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect, (c) and *sets mindfulness to the fore*. (d) *Always mindful*, he breathes in·" Again, this is a "case where" situation, not a "do this" passage [par. (a)]. To my reading, it refers to a particular class of monk, namely one who is not only leading the homeless life but is doing so in the manner recommended by the Buddha for those who wish to develop samatha to a high degree [par. (b)], and in whom both samatha with breath as object and mindfulness/satipatthana are well developed [par. (c) and (d)]. Who else could 'set mindfulness to the fore' and be 'always mindful' when breathing? It is to such a person that the rest of the sutta is pitched. Howard, I hope these comments give you some idea as to why I do not read the sutta as a general exhortation to practise mindfulness of breathing as a means of developing satipatthana, but rather as being directed to those with already-developed samatha where breath is the object. (I am of course not saying the sutta has no relevance or application to the rest of us, but simply that it has to be understood in its proper context.)> end quote. Nina. Op 30-jul-2007, om 0:01 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > "Now how is mindfulness of in-&-out breathing developed & pursued > so as to be > of great fruit, of great benefit? > "There is the case where a monk, having gone to the wilderness, to > the shade > of a tree, #74744 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 30, 2007 5:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Walking nilovg Dear Scott, No criticism :-)) Op 30-jul-2007, om 5:46 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: > Citta with sati likely has its own 'flavour' and is, hence, > distinguishable; sati has its own experiential 'taste' (an opinion to > be censured - don't laugh). One object at a time, one moment of > consciousness at a time. Citta with any other mental factor would > just be different. --------- N: We should not forget that once we deal with sati of the level of satipatthana, there is also a level of pa~n~naa, and that makes all the difference. Pa~n~naa begins to investigate the dhamma that is object of awareness, begins to see it as no self. Not a person, not a thing, not a body. And this occurs without having to think about it. I think this makes the citta with sati of satipatthana distinguishable from the citta without awareness. You say: < Citta with any other mental factor would just be different.> We could say: citta without pa~n~naa. Nina. #74745 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 30, 2007 5:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Samsara nilovg Dear Azita, Op 30-jul-2007, om 7:54 heeft gazita2002 het volgende geschreven: > I like to > fall asleep at night reflecting on the khandhas, it doesnt always > happen like that, when it does, it seems to have a calming effect. -------- N: When you consider any dhamma appearing right now, you are on the way to understand what the khandhas are. You do not have to wait until tonight :-)) But I must say that I am mostly forgetful. Nina. #74746 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 30, 2007 5:36 am Subject: Conditions, Ch 9, no 2 nilovg Dear friends, The eye-base (cakkhu-vatthu) is base only for seeing-consciousness, it is not base for the other cittas arising in the eye-door process; these have the heart-base (hadaya-vatthu) as their base. The ear-base conditions hearing-consciousness after having previously arisen, thus, it conditions it by way of prenascence-condition. The other sense-bases also condition the cittas which are dependent on them after having previously arisen, thus by way of prenascence-condition. We read in the “Patthåna” (II, Analytical Exposition of the Conditions, 10, Prenascence-Condition): Eye-base is related to eye-consciousness element and its associated states [1] by prenascence-condition. Ear-base is related to ear-consciousness element and its associated states by prenascence-condition. Nose-base is related to nose-consciousness element and its associated states by prenascence-condition. Tongue-base is related to tongue-consciousness element and its associated states by prenascence-condition. Body-base is related to body-consciousness element and its associated states by prenascence-condition. It seems that seeing, hearing or thinking occur all at the same time, but they arise at different moments, they are dependent on different bases and they experience different objects. When we study the manifold conditions for the realities which arise it will be clearer that there is no self who coordinates all the different experiences. The above quoted text reminds us that seeing, hearing and the other sense-cognitions are only elements, not self. If there can be mindfulness of one reality at a time we will see that visible object, sound and the other sense objects are different from each other. It will be clearer that eye-sense is different from ear-sense and the other senses. As right understanding develops we will be less inclined to confuse the different realities and to take them for a “whole”, for a person. -------- 1. The associated dhammas are the accompanying cetasikas. ******* Nina. #74747 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 30, 2007 5:36 am Subject: Listening to the Dhamma, Ch 7, no 4. nilovg Dear friends, We read in the same Commentary that wisdom is the chief cause for the practice of the other perfections. We read: Again, only the man of wisdom can patiently tolerate the wrongs of others, not the dull-witted man. In the man lacking wisdom, the wrongs of others only provoke impatience; but for the wise, they call his patience into play and make it grow even stronger.... When we hear unpleasant words we can remember that hearing is only vipåka, the result of kamma, a deed performed in the past. Instead of being upset there can be equanimity, upekkhå, and also mettå, benevolence. We can be intent on the welfare of any person, even if he is not agreeable, that is true mettå. Mettå is different from liking a particular person, mettå is impartial. When we do not retort disagreeable speech with angry words we practise the perfection of síla. Thus, in difficult situations the perfections can be practised together with satipatthåna. We should remember that all the perfections pertain to our daily life. Situations are difficult very often, and then we should ask ourselves: “Where are the perfections of patience, mettå, upekkhå and energy, where is the determination to practise kusala?” The situation is a test for the practice of the perfections. During these days of Dhamma discussions we received many precious reminders from Acharn Sujin, from Acharn Somphon, from Acharn Santi, and from many of our friends. Listening helps to gain more confidence in the Buddha’s teaching. We can verify the truth of what he taught about nåma and rúpa: seeing is conditioned by eyesense and visible object; hearing is conditioned by earsense and sound, and it is the same for the other doorways. We cannot control seeing or hearing, these experiences are vipåka, conditioned by kamma. On account of what we experience through the senses attachment or aversion are bound to arise. These accompany akusala citta. ******** Nina. #74748 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jul 30, 2007 2:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Samsara upasaka_howard Hi, Azita (and Nina) - In a message dated 7/30/07 1:54:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time, gazita2002@... writes: > Hello Nina, > > Yes, I am glad, thank you, and in reality there is no Zoe or > grandson or me, just the 5 khandhas who/which belong to no-one. > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, but ... . The "but" is that the dhammas we call "Azita" are not literally identical with those called "Zoe" and so on. So, at the least, there are different kammic streams of knowings and knowns. While your actions certainly are conditions affecting the dhammas of Zoe and her son, you each inherit your own kamma. Of course, literally there is NO "one" to whom any dhammas belong nor to inherit anything - you are right in that. ------------------------------------------------ I > > often think of the khandhas - I like to recall that the khandhas is > all there is. That they arise temporarily and then cease. I like to > fall asleep at night reflecting on the khandhas, it doesnt always > happen like that, when it does, it seems to have a calming effect. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Thinking, just thinking. It can, of course, be calming and pleasant. And thinking over impersonality is wholesome for sure. ------------------------------------------------ > > Patience, courage and good cheer, > azita > ====================== May you and your family have wonderful experiences with your new grandson, affording you loads of happy times and much joyful thinking. With metta, Howard #74749 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jul 30, 2007 3:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Conditions, Ch 8, no 8. upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 7/30/07 2:09:08 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: > Hi Nina, > > I wonder if I am being overly dogmatic when I insist that concepts > cannot condition anything. When it comes to object condition and > natural decisive support condition it certainly seems that concepts > can condition dhammas in those ways. And the texts clearly say that > they can. However, with just a few "mental gymnastics" we can see > that it is really dhammas that are doing the conditioning - even in > those cases. So that's the way I prefer to say it. > > It is true that a flying purple elephant can condition consciousness > by object condition. And yet the mere suggestion that a fictitious > creature can do anything is plainly ridiculous. So I prefer not to > say it that way. Or I prefer to say, "Yes, a flying purple elephant - > or any other concept - can support namas by way of object condition, > but, really, it is the namas themselves *by the act of taking that > concept as their object* that have done the conditioning." > > You prefer to stick with the way it is said in the texts, and I would > like agree with you. However, in DSG discussions that would be the > thin end of the wedge. :-) If we are seen (fairly or unfairly) to be > attributing any kind of reality to concepts then why can't we > attribute other kinds as well? > > Ken H > ======================== Odd, isn't it, that we agree on this? :-) As for the flying purple element, it seems to me that when it is said that we "think of a flying purple elephant," that is just a way of describing the nature of the thinking that is in effect. As for the dhammas that are objects of conciousness during the "thinking of a flying purple elephant," I have no clear idea of what they are. I suspect that they include memories of purple, of elephant images, of bird-flying images, and so on. I maintain that to say that a flying purple elephant (or even "the idea" of one) is the object of our thinking and an object of consciousness is just a manner of speaking and not to be taken literally. We do experience, with more or less detail, the process of thinking which projects the notion of flying purple elephant, and in doing so we *say* we are thinking of a flying purple elephant. That's all, it seems to me. With metta, Howard #74750 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Mon Jul 30, 2007 7:24 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (64) nichiconn dear friends, 11. Dvaadasakanipaato 1. Uppalava.n.naatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa part 2 txt: Tato cavitvaa puna manussaloka.m aagacchantii ekasmi.m gaamake sahatthaa kamma.m katvaa jiivanaka.t.thaane nibbattaa. Saa ekadivasa.m khettaku.ti.m gacchantii antaraamagge ekasmi.m sare paatova pupphita.m padumapuppha.m disvaa ta.m sara.m oruyha ta~nceva puppha.m laajapakkhipanatthaaya paduminipatta~nca gahetvaa kedaare saalisiisaani chinditvaa ku.tikaaya nisinnaa laaje bhajjitvaa pa~nca laajasataani katvaa .thapesi. Pruitt: Then passing away from there, she came back to the world of men. She was born in a position in which she earned her livelihood working with her own hands. One day, she was going to a hut in the field very early, and on the way, she saw a lotus flower in bloom in a certain pond. She went down into that pond and took the flower and a lotus leaf in order to include it with [an offering of] puffed rice. In the field she cut off heads of rice, and seated in her little hut, she roasted the puffed rice. She made 500 [grains of] puffed rice and put them on one side. txt: Tasmi.m kha.ne gandhamaadanapabbate nirodhasamaapattito vu.t.thito eko paccekabuddho aagantvaa tassaa aviduure .thaane a.t.thaasi. Saa paccekabuddha.m disvaa laajehi saddhi.m padumapuppha.m gahetvaa, ku.tito oruyha laaje paccekabuddhassa patte pakkhipitvaa padumapupphena patta.m pidhaaya adaasi. Athassaa paccekabuddhe thoka.m gate etadahosi- "pabbajitaa naama pupphena anatthikaa, aha.m puppha.m gahetvaa pi.landhissaamii"ti Pruitt: At that moment, a certain Pacceka Buddha rose from the attainment of cessation on Gandhamaadana Mountain, and he came and stood in a spot not far from her. Seeing the Pacceka Buddha, she took the lotus flower with the puffed rice, and descending from her hut, she gave the puffed rice, tossing it into the bowl of the Pacceka Buddha and covering his bowl with the lotus flower. When the Pacceka Buddha had gone a short way, this thought occurred to her, "Those who have gone forth do not care for flowers. But I can take the flower and adorn myself." txt: gantvaa paccekabuddhassa hatthato puppha.m gahetvaa puna cintesi- "sace, ayyo, pupphena anatthiko abhavissaa, pattamatthake .thapetu.m naadassa, addhaa ayyassa attho bhavissatii"ti puna gantvaa pattamatthake thapetvaa paccekabuddha.m khamaapetvaa, "bhante, imesa.m me laajaana.m nissandena laajaga.nanaaya puttaa assu, padumapupphassa nissandena nibbattanibbatta.t.thaane pade pade padumapuppha.m u.t.thahatuu"ti patthana.m akaasi. Pruitt: So she took the flower from the Pacceka Buddha's hand. Then she thought, "If the venerable one did not care for the flower, he would not accept having it placed on top of his bowl. Surely that would be the aim of the venerable one." Then she went and placed [the flower] on top of the bowl, and begged the Pacceka Buddha's pardon. [Making] an aspiration, she said, "Venerable sir, as a result of this puffed rice, may I have as many sons as there are grains of rice. As a result of this lotus flower, in every place where I am born, may a lotus flower appear at every footstep." txt: Paccekubuddho tassaa passantiyaava aakaasena gandhamaadanapabbata.m gantvaa ta.m paduma.m nandamuulakapabbhaare paccekabuddhaana.m akkamanasopaanasamiipe paadapu~nchana.m katvaa .thapesi. Saapi tassa kammassa nissandena devaloke pa.tisandhi.m ga.nhi. Nibbattakaalato pa.t.thaaya cassaa pade pade mahaapadumapuppha.m u.t.thaasi. Pruitt: As she watched him, the Pacceka Buddha went through the sky to Gandhamaadana Mountain. And he placed that lotus as a foot-wiping cloth near the staircase the Pacceka Buddhas step upon in the Nanda-muulaka Cave.* As a result of that deed, she obtained rebirth in a deva world. From the time of her birth, for every footstep she took, a great lotus flower appeared. *The spelling in DPPN is Nandamuula. { www.palikanon.com/english/pali_names/n/nandamulapabbhara.htm } ===tbc, connie. #74751 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jul 30, 2007 3:25 am Subject: Not Hard to Accept (Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Walking) upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 7/30/07 4:39:32 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Above all we have to remember that sati is also an element that > cannot be controlled. As you know, I mean that there are conditions, > but no person who can do anything. You find that hard to accept, > don't you? Then you are not alone. > ========================= You surprise me with the foregoing. I do not at all find it "hard to accept" that there are conditions but no person who can do anything. I think that "the person" is nothing but concept - a mental construct imputed upon a multitude of directly experienced phenomena. It is a well-based construct, and more "real" than (was it originally Jon's) flying purple elephant that Ken and I have been talking about, but still only a fabrication. After all the posts on not-self that I have written, how can you possibly not see what my perspective is. I even object to thinking of namas as agents/actors, let alone "persons" as realities! With metta, Howard #74752 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jul 30, 2007 3:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Another Observation about Mindfulness upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - I don't accept the following explanation, Nina. Meditation on the breath is taught to beginners in all Buddhist traditions. I see nothing in this sutta that says that mediation on the breath is for those already well advanced. In fact, early in the sutta there is the following: "On that occasion the elder monks were teaching & instructing. Some elder monks were teaching & instructing ten monks, some were teaching & instructing twenty monks, some were teaching & instructing thirty monks, some were teaching & instructing forty monks. The new monks, being taught & instructed by the elder monks, were discerning grand, successive distinctions." Note in that last sentence, Nina - the NEW monks. And the instructions begin, as I pointed out, with setting mindfulnss to the fore and then continuing with it. (Note also as an aside, that the material I quoted here doesn't speak of the elder monks as just describing occurrences, but of teaching & instructing monks.) As for the categories of monks there, they range from arahants down through the other three lesser ariyan levels, and then to those working on the 4 foundations of mindfulness, those cutivating the divine abidings, and those working on anapanasati. The new monks were likely good and serious students, and, indeed, the Buddha praised all who were there, but there is no reason to presume these new monks were advanced practitioners. I would be very interested to hear from bhikkhus who are members of DSG as to whether anapansati is reserved for advanced practitioners at the monasteries that they reside at or have resided at. I would much appreciate such a report. With metta, Howard In a message dated 7/30/07 8:33:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > > Hi Howard, > from another post of yours I remember that you have made a thorough > study of this subject as explained in the Visuddhimagga, where these > tetrads are dealt with. As to the first tetrad, you remember that > that person who practised thus became already an arahat. > And, as Jon said before: here the Buddha adressed people who were > already very skilfull with this subject. With regard to this subject, > I wrote: > > (VIII, 223-226) mentions with regard to the first tetrad (group of > four clauses, marked I-IV) of the sutta the different stages of > insight-knowledge which are developed after emerging from jhÅ’na. We > read: > breaths have the physical body and the mind as their origin; and that > just as, when a blacksmithÕs bellows are being blown, the wind moves > owing to the bag and to the manÕs appropriate effort, so too, in- > breaths and out-breaths are due to the body and the mind. > > Next he defines the in-breaths and out-breaths and the body as > materiality, and the consciousness and the states associated with the > consciousness as the immaterial... > Having defined nama-rupa in this way, he seeks its condition...> > > The Visuddhimagga then mentions all the different stages of insight > (Visuddhimagga VIII, 223 -225). We then read: > has become established in the fruition of arahatship, he at last > attains to the nineteen kinds of Ã’Reviewing KnowledgeÓ, and he > becomes fit to receive the highest gifts from the world with its > deities.> > > You see, they had to develop all the stages of insight. They became > arahats. Nowadays, we are different, don't you think? > > Long ago Jon wrote this post to you and perhaps after a time we may > read a post differently, interesting to observe: > as to > bring the four frames of reference to their culmination? > "There is the case where a monk, having gone to the wilderness, to the > shade of a tree, or to an empty building, sits down folding his legs > crosswise, holding his body erect, and setting mindfulness to the fore. > Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out..." > > This sets the context for what follows, including the passage > discussed at > 1/. above. I would like to focus on some particular aspects of this > introductory section. Again, a breakdown may be helpful: > (a) *There is the case where* a monk, > (b) *having gone to the wilderness*, to the shade of a tree, or to an > empty building, sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body > erect, > (c) and *sets mindfulness to the fore*. > (d) *Always mindful*, he breathes in·" > > Again, this is a "case where" situation, not a "do this" passage [par. > (a)]. To my reading, it refers to a particular class of monk, namely > one > who is not only leading the homeless life but is doing so in the manner > recommended by the Buddha for those who wish to develop samatha to a > high > degree [par. (b)], and in whom both samatha with breath as object and > mindfulness/satipatthana are well developed [par. (c) and (d)]. Who > else > could 'set mindfulness to the fore' and be 'always mindful' when > breathing? It is to such a person that the rest of the sutta is > pitched. > > Howard, I hope these comments give you some idea as to why I do not read > the sutta as a general exhortation to practise mindfulness of > breathing as > a means of developing satipatthana, but rather as being directed to > those > with already-developed samatha where breath is the object. > > (I am of course not saying the sutta has no relevance or application to > the rest of us, but simply that it has to be understood in its proper > context.)> > end quote. > Nina. #74753 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Jul 30, 2007 8:00 am Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge indriyabala Hi Scott - Scott: These are the the dhammas in their order (please check these, I don't know them well and have pasted from Nyanatiloka). Scott: I'm going to leave the rest of the post for further consideration, and use the above as a guide. Please correct any inaccuracies if you notice them. See you later, Tep. T: They are the 38 bodhipakkhiya dhammas. I am not sure about the "order" of them. Why order them? They are not necessarily practiced in any order, I think. Or, are you trying to relate them to the ten dhammas in the AN 10.61 sutta? Tep === #74754 From: "nidive" Date: Mon Jul 30, 2007 8:31 am Subject: Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness nidive Hi Nina, > (a) *There is the case where* a monk, > (b) *having gone to the wilderness*, to the shade of a tree, > or to an empty building, sits down folding his legs crosswise, > holding his body erect, > (c) and *sets mindfulness to the fore*. > (d) *Always mindful*, he breathes in·" > > Again, this is a "case where" situation, not a "do this" passage > [par. (a)]. To my reading, it refers to a particular class of > monk, namely one who is not only leading the homeless life but is > doing so in the manner recommended by the Buddha for those who wish > to develop samatha to a high degree [par. (b)], and in whom both > samatha with breath as object and mindfulness/satipatthana are well > developed [par. (c) and (d)]. > Who else could 'set mindfulness to the fore' and be 'always > mindful' when breathing? > It is to such a person that the rest of the sutta is pitched. In that case, Nina, you may throw DN 22 out the window. I mean, you might just as well throw sati out the window! Can we find your interpretation in any commentary, sub-commentary, sub-sub-commentary, etc? Or do we find it in a Khun Sujin commentary? Or are you reading too much into a four-letter word? Swee Boon #74755 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 30, 2007 8:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness nilovg Dear Swee Boon, See my answer to Howard. Nina. Op 30-jul-2007, om 17:31 heeft nidive het volgende geschreven: > In that case, Nina, you may throw DN 22 out the window. > > I mean, you might just as well throw sati out the window! #74756 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Jul 30, 2007 8:54 am Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge scottduncan2 Dear Tep, Thanks for the reply: T: "They are the 38 bodhipakkhiya dhammas..." Scott: Okay, thanks for the term. I'll follow it up... T: "...I am not sure about the "order" of them. Why order them? They are not necessarily practiced in any order, I think. Or, are you trying to relate them to the ten dhammas in the AN 10.61 sutta?" Scott: I'm trying to work out a sort of 'which comes first' schema regarding this. It seems to me that there is a sort of linearity here. The analogy of the water suggests so: small streams flowing into larger streams and so on. And the development of dhammas proceeds, I would think, from 'lower to higher' - as it were. And, true, they are not 'practised' in any order since the development occurs according to conditions but I think a certain 'level' must develop prior to the arising of the next. And it would seem that a certain lower 'strength' of dhamma must be prerequisite for a certain higher 'strength'. And, yes, I'm still trying to relate them to those in AN 10:61. I'm still going over the main portions of your last reply, thanks for the patience. Sincerely, Scott. #74757 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 30, 2007 8:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Another Observation about Mindfulness nilovg Hi Howard, Op 30-jul-2007, om 16:51 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > The new monks, being taught & instructed by the elder monks, were > discerning > grand, successive distinctions." ------- N: my translation has; < And the new Bhikkhus, taught and instructed by the elder Bhikkhus, had achieved successive stages of high distinction. > That is very advanced, isn't it? I quote more: In the Sutta we read that the Buddha said: Note of Ven. Nanamoli: this refers to arahatship. We then read in the sutta what the Buddha said one month later, at the Komudi festival. This we should carefully consider so that we can understand to whom the explanation of anapanasati was addressed: 8] "Bhikkhus, this assembly is free from prattle, this assembly is free from chatter.[10] It consists purely of heartwood. Such is this Sangha of Bhikkhus, such is this assembly. Such an assembly as is worthy of gifts, worthy of hospitality, worthy of offerings, worthy of reverential salutation, an incomparable field of merit for the world -- Such is this assembly. Such an assembly that a small gift given to it becomes great and a great gift becomes greater -- such is this Sangha of Bhikkhus, such is this assembly. Such an assembly as is rare for the world to see -- such is this Sangha of Bhikkhus, such is this assembly. Such an assembly as would be worthy journeying many leagues with a travel-bag to see -- such is this Sangha of Bhikkhus, such is this assembly. 9] "In this Sangha of Bhikkhus, there are Bhikkhus who are arahats with taints destroyed, who have lived the holy life, done what had to be done, laid down the burden, reached the true goal, destroyed the fetters of being, and are completely liberated through final knowledge -- such Bhikkhus are there in this Sangha of Bhikkhus. 10] "In this Sangha of Bhikkhus there are Bhikkhus who, with the destruction of the five lower fetters, are due to reappear spontaneously (in the pure abodes) and there attain final Nibbana, without ever returning from that world -- such Bhikkhus are there in this Sangha of Bhikkhus. 11] "In this Sangha of Bhikkhus there are Bhikkhus who, with the destruction of three fetters and with the attenuation of lust, hate and delusion, are once- returners, returning once to this world to make an end of suffering -- such Bhikkhus are there in this Sangha of Bhikkhus. 12] "In this Sangha of Bhikkhus there are Bhikkhus who, with the destruction of the three fetters, are stream-enterers, no longer subject to perdition, bound [for deliverance], headed for enlightenment -- such Bhikkhus are there in this sangha of Bhikkhus. 13] "In this Sangha of Bhikkhus there are Bhikkhus who abide devoted to the development of the four foundations of mindfulness[11] -- such Bhikkhus are there in this Sangha of Bhikkhus. In this Sangha of Bhikkhus there are Bhikkhus who abide devoted to the four right kinds of strivings (efforts). . . of the four bases for spiritual power. . . of the five faculties. . . of the five powers. . . of the seven enlightenment factors. . . of the Noble Eightfold Path -- such Bhikkhus are there in this Sangha of Bhikkhus 14] "In this Sangha of Bhikkhus there are Bhikkhus who abide devoted to the development of loving-kindness. . . of compassion. . . of appreciative joy. . . of equanimity. . . of the meditation of foulness. . . of the perception of impermanence - - such Bhikkhus are there in this Sangha of Bhikkhus. In this Sangha of Bhikkhus there are Bhikkhus who abide devoted to the development of mindfulness of breathing. ******* The Co explains that all these were meditation subjects the monks were very interested in. In the sutta where it is stated: they dwell devoted to the four foundations of mindfulness... the noble eightfold Path, there is reference to the thirtyseven factors of enlightenment. The Co explains about the factors of enlightenment, bodhipakkhiya dhammas, that these are lokiya (not lokuttara, that is, those arising when enlightenment is attained) and lokuttara. It states that they are lokiya for the monks who develop vipassana, insight. In the sutta we read about the perception of impermanence. The Co explains that here insight, vipassana, is meant by sa~n~naa, perception. ------ Howard, they were very advanced! There is reference to the thirtyseven factors of enlightenment. Nina. #74758 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 30, 2007 8:49 am Subject: Re: Not Hard to Accept (Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Walking) nilovg Hi Howard, You are right, but on the other hand I understood from you that you want to 'do' something. I remember that you said that it does not matter if there is in the beginning striving with an idea of 'I strive", or did I midunderstand you? Then I apologize. Actually, this is for all of us: we know in theory about non-self, but what about the practice? Each person has to answer this for himself. Nina. Op 30-jul-2007, om 16:25 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > After all the posts on not-self that I have written, how can you > possibly not see what my perspective is. I even object to thinking > of namas as > agents/actors, let alone "persons" as realities! #74759 From: Dieter Möller Date: Mon Jul 30, 2007 10:22 am Subject: question of a hermit moellerdieter Dear Nina, you wrote: 'a correction.I wrote: > sahajata-paccaya (sahazarta-paccaya). It has to be by way of > conascence.> Correction: The fact that utu produces another rupa cannot be classified under the twentyfour conditions. Ruupa cannot produce another rupa at its arising moment, it is too weak. Conascence condition refers to rupas arising together, and thus it does not pertain to utuja ruupa.' to avoid misunderstandings, back to the question: 'There is a commentary, it says that Teza (of rupa) makes a new Utuzarupa. If so, in 24 paccaya, by which paccaya realtion's take place here?' you mean there is no classification possible among the 24 paccaya ..so that there is no relation, is it? with Metta Dieter #74760 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jul 30, 2007 7:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Another Observation about Mindfulness upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 7/30/07 12:14:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > Op 30-jul-2007, om 16:51 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > > >The new monks, being taught &instructed by the elder monks, were > >discerning > >grand, successive distinctions."------- > N: my translation has; taught and instructed by the elder Bhikkhus, had achieved > successive stages > of high distinction. > -------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, the ~Nanamoli & Bodhi translation. --------------------------------------------- > That is very advanced, isn't it? -------------------------------------------- Howard: It indicates that the new bhikkhus made good and rapid progress, but they were new bhikkhus. They were adept and had superb teachers. There are many Buddhists who are adept, Nina. No one should presume that s/he is not. ----------------------------------------------- > I quote more: In the Sutta we read that the Buddha said: > still more energy to attain the unattained, to achieve the > unachieved, to > realize the unrealized. I > shall wait here at Sivatthi for the Komudi full moon of the > fourth month.> > Note of Ven. Nanamoli: this refers to arahatship. ------------------------------------ Howard: Maybe. And maybe simply to progress beyond the current status. Nina, why are you so eager to see concerted practice as only possible for folks "better" than we are? Why is not your eagerness for doing all that can be done instead? In any case, Nina, I have benefitted from meditation practice, calming the mind, seeing things I had not seen before, and gaining great confidence in the Dhamma. So I will not let your inclination to impossibility dissuade me. -------------------------------------- > We then read in the sutta what the Buddha said one month later, at > the Komudi festival. This we should carefully consider so that we can > understand to whom the explanation of anapanasati was addressed: > 8] "Bhikkhus, this assembly is free from prattle, this assembly is free > from chatter.[10] It > consists purely of heartwood. Such is this Sangha of > Bhikkhus, such is this > assembly. Such an > assembly as is worthy of gifts, worthy of hospitality, worthy > of offerings, > worthy of reverential > salutation, an incomparable field of merit for the world -- > Such is this > assembly. Such an > assembly that a small gift given to it becomes great and a > great gift > becomes greater -- such is > this Sangha of Bhikkhus, such is this assembly. Such an > assembly as is rare > for the world to see > -- such is this Sangha of Bhikkhus, such is this assembly. > Such an assembly > as would be worthy > journeying many leagues with a travel-bag to see -- such is > this Sangha of > Bhikkhus, such is this > assembly. > > 9] "In this Sangha of Bhikkhus, there are Bhikkhus who are > arahats with > taints destroyed, who > have lived the holy life, done what had to be done, laid down > the burden, > reached the true goal, > destroyed the fetters of being, and are completely liberated > through final > knowledge -- such > Bhikkhus are there in this Sangha of Bhikkhus. > > 10] "In this Sangha of Bhikkhus there are Bhikkhus who, with the > destruction of the five lower > fetters, are due to reappear spontaneously (in the pure > abodes) and there > attain final Nibbana, > without ever returning from that world -- such Bhikkhus are > there in this > Sangha of Bhikkhus. > > 11] "In this Sangha of Bhikkhus there are Bhikkhus who, with the > destruction of three fetters > and with the attenuation of lust, hate and delusion, are once- > returners, > returning once to this > world to make an end of suffering -- such Bhikkhus are there > in this Sangha > of Bhikkhus. > > 12] "In this Sangha of Bhikkhus there are Bhikkhus who, with the > destruction of the three > fetters, are stream-enterers, no longer subject to perdition, > bound [for > deliverance], headed for > enlightenment -- such Bhikkhus are there in this sangha of > Bhikkhus. > > 13] "In this Sangha of Bhikkhus there are Bhikkhus who abide > devoted to the > development of the > four foundations of mindfulness[11] -- such Bhikkhus are > there in this > Sangha of Bhikkhus. In > this Sangha of Bhikkhus there are Bhikkhus who abide devoted > to the four > right kinds of > strivings (efforts). . . of the four bases for spiritual > power. . . of the > five faculties. . . of the five > powers. . . of the seven enlightenment factors. . . of the > Noble Eightfold > Path -- such Bhikkhus > are there in this Sangha of Bhikkhus > > 14] "In this Sangha of Bhikkhus there are Bhikkhus who abide > devoted to the > development of > loving-kindness. . . of compassion. . . of appreciative > joy. . . of > equanimity. . . of the meditation > of foulness. . . of the perception of impermanence - - such > Bhikkhus are > there in this Sangha of > Bhikkhus. In this Sangha of Bhikkhus there are Bhikkhus who > abide devoted > to the development > of mindfulness of breathing. --------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, I synopsized that before, Nina, and I said that the Buddha praised the entire group. -------------------------------------- > ******* > The Co explains that all these were meditation subjects the monks > were very interested in. In the sutta where it is stated: they dwell > devoted to the four foundations of mindfulness... the noble eightfold > Path, there is reference to the thirtyseven factors of enlightenment. > The Co explains about the factors of enlightenment, bodhipakkhiya > dhammas, that these are lokiya (not lokuttara, that is, those arising > when enlightenment is attained) and lokuttara. It states that they > are lokiya for the monks who develop vipassana, insight. > In the sutta we read about the perception of impermanence. The Co > explains that here insight, vipassana, is meant by sa~n~naa, perception. > ------ > Howard, they were very advanced! There is reference to the > thirtyseven factors of enlightenment. ------------------------------------------------- Howard: So, anapanasati is not for us, hmm? Is that your considered opinion? It seems that what you think is appropriate for the likes of us is just to read and think about the Dhamma, visit "holy sites", and perhaps give dana to the Sangha. I reject this. ------------------------------------------------ > Nina. > > ======================== With metta, Howard #74761 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jul 30, 2007 7:14 am Subject: Re: Not Hard to Accept (Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Walking) upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 7/30/07 12:15:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > > Hi Howard, > You are right, but on the other hand I understood from you that you > want to 'do' something. > ------------------------------------------- Howard: The significance of that depends on what one considers that to mean. I do not believe in self, Nina. However, if I am not to speak normal English, then I shall have to say nothing at all. And, Nina, do you not want to do things? Do you not want to spread the Dhamma, to write books, to participate on this list, to care for yourself and Lodewijk? This is just silly, IMO, Nina. --------------------------------------------- I remember that you said that it does not > > matter if there is in the beginning striving with an idea of 'I > strive", or did I midunderstand you? Then I apologize. -------------------------------------------- Howard: Of course that sense is present, Nina, and in you as much as me. If that were not so we would be arahants. And if one must be an arahant in order to move towards becoming an arahant, then there is no sense to anything at all! I do NOT believe there is an "I" who strives, not in the slightest, not an iota, not at all! But I will not deny a sense of "I". --------------------------------------------- > Actually, this is for all of us: we know in theory about non-self, > but what about the practice? --------------------------------------------- Howard: And what would that practice be, Nina - pretending that we have no sense of "I", and speaking as if we did not? That is not practice, it is make-believe. ---------------------------------------------- > Each person has to answer this for himself. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, indeed. ------------------------------------------------ > Nina. ======================== With metta, Howard #74762 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 30, 2007 11:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] question of a hermit nilovg Dear Dieter, The matter is more complicated. U Narada, Guide to Conditional Relations, p. 58, under Nutriment-condition, ahaara paccaya, explains that nutritive essence supports to produce Temperature-produced matter. : Thus we have to take into account ahaara-paccaya so that we can understand how there can be heat produced rupa, utuja ruupa. Nina. Op 30-jul-2007, om 19:22 heeft Dieter Möller het volgende geschreven: > you mean there is no classification possible among the 24 > paccaya ..so that there is no relation, is it? #74763 From: "colette" Date: Mon Jul 30, 2007 8:05 am Subject: "Observations" What is there to observe? ksheri3 Good Morning Howard, Hmmmm, Nina has her own bent on things, much like the rest of sentient beings, having their own bents. Ninas main focus and expertise, from what little I've had the time to observe is VIPISSANA which is INSIGHT, it's akin to a Retributive Consciousness which is to say it's looking forward to potential RESULTANT realities that may or may not occur. That's her, that's it! In the case of breathing techniques it's nothing more than getting that chi or prana moving up the Shashumna, the spine, oh, in Tibet they work the chakras down from the brain or mind to the Heart Chakra not from the genetals upward to the heart as the hindus work it. I agree there is so much missing from the suttras that specify at what stage a person is to learn but like Milafrep told Gampopa about the problems Gampopa was having with his meditations: "sdYour meditation belt is too tight." toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Nina - > > I don't accept the following explanation, Nina. Meditation on the > breath is taught to beginners in all Buddhist traditions. I see nothing in this > sutta that says that mediation on the breath is for those already well advanced. > In fact, early in the sutta there is the following: "On that occasion the > elder monks were teaching & instructing. Some elder monks were teaching & > instructing ten monks, some were teaching & instructing twenty monks, some were > teaching & instructing thirty monks, some were teaching & instructing forty monks. > The new monks, being taught & instructed by the elder monks, were discerning > grand, successive distinctions." <.....> #74764 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Jul 30, 2007 4:15 pm Subject: Not Hard to Accept (Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Walking) scottduncan2 Dear Howard (and Nina), A few worthless comments. Just out of curiosity, how come so hot under the collar, Howard? Recent posts have seemed rather fraught with agitation. What's up? See below: Howard: "The significance of that depends on what one considers that to mean. I do not believe in self, Nina. However, if I am not to speak normal English, then I shall have to say nothing at all. And, Nina, do you not want to do things? Do you not want to spread the Dhamma, to write books, to participate on this list, to care for yourself and Lodewijk? This is just silly, IMO, Nina. I do NOT believe there is an 'I' who strives, not in the slightest, not an iota, not at all! But I will not deny a sense of 'I'...And what would that practice be, Nina - pretending that we have no sense of 'I', and speaking as if we did not? That is not practice, it is make-believe...Maybe. And maybe simply to progress beyond the current status. Nina, why are you so eager to see concerted practice as only possible for folks "better" than we are? Why is not your eagerness for doing all that can be done instead? In any case, Nina, I have benefitted from meditation practice, calming the mind, seeing things I had not seen before, and gaining great confidence in the Dhamma. So I will not let your inclination to impossibility dissuade me...So, anapanasati is not for us, hmm? Is that your considered opinion? It seems that what you think is appropriate for the likes of us is just to read and think about the Dhamma, visit 'holy sites', and perhaps give dana to the Sangha. I reject this." Scott: Why the stridency? You say, 'I have benefited from meditation practice, calming the mind, seeing things I had not seen before, and gaining great confidence in the Dhamma.' Are you sure you are not just enjoying something in much the same way one would enjoy great music or literature or scenery? How can you be so sure you aren't fooling yourself? I asked myself that question. I can fool myself. So can you. I have a suspicion that you don't think you can. What if we are only humble beings with lowly accumulations and a chance to be patient and humble? Just what if? Pretending to be otherwise and playing at being jhaana masters would be counterproductive at the very least... I imagine, personally, that you came close to understanding something that threatened to collapse your whole castle. Here, your recent good question: Howard: "So, what then is becoming distracted? What is loss of attention? And what is the opposite? And when mindfulness exists, for just a moment as you say, what is happening? What does it mean to say that mindfulness is in effect at that moment? What exactly is different at that moment? (If it cannot be spelled out what it is, then the concept is of no use.)" Scott: It was after this question - and I'm assuming it was a serious query, and not just argumentativeness - that you seemed to launch an offensive at Nina. You should pursue these questions, if you are serious. It is a very fruitful line of questioning. Nina is not the messenger. It was a brush with an impersonal dhamma I think 'you' had. Wisdom is supposed to be a good thing. Let it shake the foundations. Down with hubris! Worthless comments, as I said... Sincerely, Scott. #74765 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon Jul 30, 2007 7:20 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Another Observation about Mindfulness rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > > Howard: > So, anapanasati is not for us, hmm? Is that your considered opinion? > It seems that what you think is appropriate for the likes of us is just to read > and think about the Dhamma, visit "holy sites", and perhaps give dana to the > Sangha. I reject this. > ------------------------------------------------ Dear Howard, Anapanasati is singled out as being the most difficult of all the 40 objects.Here is a passage from the Visuddhimagga Viii 211: "Although any meditation subject, no matter what, is successful only in one who is mindful and fully aware, yet any meditation subject other than this one gets more evident as he goes on giving it his attention. But this mindfulness of breathing is difficult, difficult to develop, a field in which only the minds of Buddhas, paccekabuddhas and Buddhas sons are at home. It is no trivial matter, nor can it be cultivated by trivial persons.." . Robert #74766 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jul 30, 2007 3:53 pm Subject: Re: Not Hard to Accept (Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Walking) upasaka_howard Hi, Scott - In a message dated 7/30/07 7:18:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: > > Dear Howard (and Nina), > > A few worthless comments. Just out of curiosity, how come so hot > under the collar, Howard? Recent posts have seemed rather fraught > with agitation. What's up? See below: > > Howard: "The significance of that depends on what one considers that > to mean. I do not believe in self, Nina. However, if I am not to speak > normal English, then I shall have to say nothing at all. And, Nina, > do you not want to do things? Do you not want to spread the Dhamma, to > write books, to participate on this list, to care for yourself and > Lodewijk? This is just silly, IMO, Nina. I do NOT believe there is an > 'I' who strives, not in the slightest, not an iota, not at all! But I > will not deny a sense of 'I'...And what would that practice be, Nina - > pretending that we have no sense of 'I', and speaking as if we did > not? That is not practice, it is make-believe...Maybe. And maybe > simply to progress beyond the current status. Nina, why are you so > eager to see concerted practice as only possible for folks "better" > than we are? Why is not your eagerness for doing all that can be done > instead? In any case, Nina, I have benefitted from meditation > practice, calming the mind, seeing things I had not seen before, and > gaining great confidence in the Dhamma. So I will not let your > inclination to impossibility dissuade me...So, anapanasati is not for > us, hmm? Is that your considered opinion? It seems that what you think > is appropriate for the likes of us is just to read and think about the > Dhamma, visit 'holy sites', and perhaps give dana to the Sangha. I > reject this." > > Scott: Why the stridency? You say, 'I have benefited from meditation > practice, calming the mind, seeing things I had not seen before, and > gaining great confidence in the Dhamma.' > > Are you sure you are not just enjoying something in much the same way > one would enjoy great music or literature or scenery? How can you be > so sure you aren't fooling yourself? I asked myself that question. I > can fool myself. So can you. I have a suspicion that you don't think > you can. > > What if we are only humble beings with lowly accumulations and a > chance to be patient and humble? Just what if? Pretending to be > otherwise and playing at being jhaana masters would be > counterproductive at the very least... > > I imagine, personally, that you came close to understanding something > that threatened to collapse your whole castle. Here, your recent good > question: > > Howard: "So, what then is becoming distracted? What is loss of > attention? And what is the opposite? And when mindfulness exists, for > just a moment as you say, what is happening? What does it mean to say > that mindfulness is in effect at that moment? What exactly is > different at that moment? (If it cannot be spelled out what it is, > then the concept is of no use.)" > > Scott: It was after this question - and I'm assuming it was a serious > query, and not just argumentativeness - that you seemed to launch an > offensive at Nina. You should pursue these questions, if you are > serious. It is a very fruitful line of questioning. > > Nina is not the messenger. It was a brush with an impersonal dhamma I > think 'you' had. Wisdom is supposed to be a good thing. Let it shake > the foundations. Down with hubris! > > Worthless comments, as I said... > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > > ========================== If by "hot under the collar" you mean "angry", then you are wrong. I agree I was very forceful in what I said, though, and how I said it. What precipitated my post was that I found the idea that I have atta-view, after all that I have written, to be amazing and silly to say the least. Also, I'm afraid that just as many folks here are "protective" of the Abhidhamma, I am the same as regards the possibility, in fact the necessity, of intentional practice. I consider the no-control and no meditation ideas expressed here to be an extreme that is a grave perversion of the Dhamma, and from time to time - and this was one of those times - I find myself not holding back in resisting it. I love the Buddhadhamma, and I believe that without the intentional practice taught by the Buddha for 45 years, there just is no Dhamma. The entire Buddhist world considers the Satipatthana Sutta and the Anapansati Sutta as the central meditative teachings of the Buddha, and there is no school of Buddhism that does not teach these to all Dhamma followers who wish to engage in practice.Well, maybe there is one school that does not. With metta, Howard P.S. I don't pretend to be a "jhana" master. There was one time only that I have strong confidence that I entered jhanas,and that was brief. I am a rank amateur. P.P.S. Your stringing together what you found to be objectionable sentences without the context is misleading. In any case, I know that there was no anger behind what I wrote, thought there was exasperation and unhappiness. #74767 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jul 30, 2007 4:06 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Another Observation about Mindfulness upasaka_howard Hi, Robert - In a message dated 7/30/07 10:22:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rjkjp1@... writes: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > > > > >Howard: > > So, anapanasati is not for us, hmm? Is that your considered > opinion? > >It seems that what you think is appropriate for the likes of us is > just to read > >and think about the Dhamma, visit "holy sites", and perhaps give > dana to the > >Sangha. I reject this. > >------------------------------------------------ > Dear Howard, > > Anapanasati is singled out as being the > most difficult of all the 40 objects.Here is a passage from the > Visuddhimagga Viii > 211: "Although any meditation subject, no matter what, is > successful > only in one who is mindful and fully aware, yet any meditation > subject other than this one gets more evident as he goes on > giving it > his attention. But this mindfulness of breathing is difficult, > difficult to develop, a field in which only the minds of > Buddhas, > paccekabuddhas and Buddhas sons are at home. It is no trivial > matter, > nor can it be cultivated by trivial persons.." . > > Robert > > ========================= Anapansati is a really excellent meditation practice, Robert. If it is not good for a particular person, then, of course, s/he should look to something else. As for the difficulty of breath meditation, that the breath becomes more subtle as the meditation deepens, it is also its strength, for with that increase in subtlety, an increase in attention is needed to maintain awareness, and this becomes a process of ever-increasing positive feedback. It is truly not an accident that it is the most widely practiced form of meditation among Buddhists the world over. With metta, Howard #74768 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Jul 30, 2007 8:44 pm Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge indriyabala Hi Sarah (Scott and Larry), - S: I agree with you that we need to check the context of each sutta. I don't have the AN sutta to hand, but I agree with you that it is the association with the right view of the wise that leads to emancipation (through the development of panna). This development doesn't occur in a moment, but through a very long process of pariyatti, patipatti and eventually pativedha. T: I appreciate your flexible view that allows another type of mental development besides the "single moment" principle. Indeed, for most people the development process can take longer than a single life time. S: I appreciate your discussions with Scott and others on related topics. T: Thank you very much. Scott and Larry are very fine discussers who listen well and ask good questions. S: In the context of another sutta you've quoted on saddha as support, I see saddha as being a support for all kusala by its nature of arising with all kusala. At such moments, there is confidence in 'good', don't you think? T: Yes, I think so too. Saddha arises with kusala citta following good listening to (or reflecting on) the Dhamma, then there is yoniso- manasikara that is the top of all kusala. (Kusala Sutta in Samyutta Nikaya, Mahavagga - Nivaranavagga) [S: Apologies for breaking off threads with you and others or for being slower even than usual to respond while we're travelling and I have limited internet use.] [T: No apoplogies are necessary ! It is amazing how you are able handle the many messages despite the constraints.] Tep ==== #74769 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Jul 30, 2007 9:21 pm Subject: Not Hard to Accept (Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Walking) scottduncan2 Dear Howard, Thanks for the reply: H: "If by "hot under the collar" you mean "angry", then you are wrong. I agree I was very forceful in what I said, though, and how I said it. What precipitated my post was that I found the idea that I have atta-view, after all that I have written, to be amazing and silly to say the least." Scott: I fail to see how you can at once state that you believe in intentional practise and be without atta-view. Can you explain this? H: "Also, I'm afraid that just as many folks here are 'protective' of the Abhidhamma, I am the same as regards the possibility, in fact the necessity, of intentional practice. I consider the no-control and no meditation ideas expressed here to be an extreme that is a grave perversion of the Dhamma, and from time to time - and this was one of those times - I find myself not holding back in resisting it. I love the Buddhadhamma, and I believe that without the intentional practice taught by the Buddha for 45 years, there just is no Dhamma. The entire Buddhist world considers the Satipatthana Sutta and the Anapansati Sutta as the central meditative teachings of the Buddha, and there is no school of Buddhism that does not teach these to all Dhamma followers who wish to engage in practice.Well, maybe there is one school that does not." Scott: Refuge in the Dhamma arises for me as well, Howard. This is what we both share deeply! In the rest I am just discussing views. Again, I would be interested in reading a statement regarding how one can hold that there is no-control and believe in intentional practise at the same time. I put it this way since the main corollary of anatta is no-control. Who intends? Who practises? Also, I would be very interested to know how you deal with the assertions that we of this day are very likely of such weak accumulations that certain of the attainments and developments common to those alive when the Buddha taught are not available to us. These assertions are the saving grace of what is discussed here, no matter what side of the fence one is on. In the rest of the Buddhist world I see confusion and misunderstanding. I see claims by teachers of lineages and practises designed to hasten the moment of enlightenment. I see a whole ethos of how to look, act, dress, and sound like 'a buddhist'. This is the emperors clothes. I don't see any moderation of this conceit, except here. I am pleased to have encountered this message. I've been saved thirty-five years of being fooled and misled. The humble, deflating, minimalist message I encounter here is just what is needed. It must be hard to take after years of seeing otherwise. I've come to it before I could go far wrong. I accept that there are conditions which result in a human birth this long after the Buddha taught, yet still in the fading years of the saasana. We are here now due to conditions. We were not at the Buddha's side due to conditions. We are burning but the flame is very tender. We are priveledged to be able to discuss as we do here, with such a high level of discourse. I appreciate your posts, not because I agree, which I know you don't expect, but because I can study and consider the views presented and plunge into the Dhamma. My questions regarding how you can be certain that the meditative experiences you report are useful were not answered. I think unusual experience can be a most dangerous thing. It is almost impossible to let them go and not seek them again. How is seeking the things you describe anything more than craving? How do you know it is worth it to you to continue to seek jhaana? Is it possible that you have not experienced true jhaana because the conditions simply are not there, despite the so-called 'intentional practise'? I've read many, many of the pro-intentional practise posts you craft and you fail to convince me. Isn't this what you write these for? To convince 'non-meditators'? These are serious questions. I've asked them myself, and come out as you can see. Can you answer them? H: "P.S. I don't pretend to be a "jhana" master. There was one time only that I have strong confidence that I entered jhanas,and that was brief. I am a rank amateur." Scott: Yes, thank you. I wasn't suggesting you were pretending to be a jhaana master. You have gone on record many times with fond descriptions of experiences gained during 'meditation'. You do seem to enjoy and seek them over and over. I think this is wrong. Just an opinion, as I know you realise. H: "P.P.S. Your stringing together what you found to be objectionable sentences without the context is misleading. In any case, I know that there was no anger behind what I wrote, thought there was exasperation and unhappiness." Scott: The posts from which the quotes were culled just appeared in the past day and a half. You wrote them - stand beside them. We all just read them. I fail to see how the context is lost. I don't mind - the statements were strongly worded and intense - so what. You have explained yourself. I appreciate that. Were you to attempt to really answer the questions here that would be excellent, however please ignore if you wish - I can be most annoying I'm sure... Sincerely, Scott. #74770 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jul 30, 2007 6:02 pm Subject: Re: Not Hard to Accept (Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Walking) upasaka_howard Hi, Scott - In a message dated 7/31/07 12:23:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: > Dear Howard, > > Thanks for the reply: > > H: "If by "hot under the collar" you mean "angry", then you are wrong. > I agree I was very forceful in what I said, though, and how I said it. > What precipitated my post was that I found the idea that I have > atta-view, after all that I have written, to be amazing and silly to > say the least." > > Scott: I fail to see how you can at once state that you believe in > intentional practise and be without atta-view. Can you explain this? --------------------------------------- Howard: Any intentional action is an action motivated by intention. Ninety-nine percent of all our actions are intentional. The Buddha acted intentionally as well. Atta-view is belief in self. One does not need to believe in a self to sit down or stand up, but they are intentional actions. --------------------------------------- > > H: "Also, I'm afraid that just as many folks here are 'protective' of > the Abhidhamma, I am the same as regards the possibility, in fact the > necessity, of intentional practice. I consider the no-control and no > meditation ideas expressed here to be an extreme that is a grave > perversion of the Dhamma, and from time to time - and this was one of > those times - I find myself not holding back in resisting it. I love > the Buddhadhamma, and I believe that without the intentional practice > taught by the Buddha for 45 years, there just is no Dhamma. The > entire Buddhist world considers the Satipatthana Sutta and the > Anapansati Sutta as the central meditative teachings of the Buddha, > and there is no school of Buddhism that does not teach these to all > Dhamma followers who wish to engage in practice.Well, maybe there is > one school that does not." > > Scott: Refuge in the Dhamma arises for me as well, Howard. This is > what we both share deeply! In the rest I am just discussing views. > > Again, I would be interested in reading a statement regarding how one > can hold that there is no-control and believe in intentional practise > at the same time. I put it this way since the main corollary of > anatta is no-control. Who intends? Who practises? ---------------------------------------- Howard: I do not maintain there is no control. I maintain there is no controller. The answer to your last two questions is "No one!" --------------------------------------- > > Also, I would be very interested to know how you deal with the > assertions that we of this day are very likely of such weak > accumulations that certain of the attainments and developments > common to those alive when the Buddha taught are not available to us. ---------------------------------------- Howard: I consider those assertions to be nonsense. What is not available to us - unfortunately - is the Buddha. But we do have his Dhamma. ----------------------------------------- > > These assertions are the saving grace of what is discussed here, no > matter what side of the fence one is on. In the rest of the Buddhist > world I see confusion and misunderstanding. I see claims by teachers > of lineages and practises designed to hasten the moment of > enlightenment. I see a whole ethos of how to look, act, dress, and > sound like 'a buddhist'. -------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't know what you have seen of Buddhism and Buddhist teachers. I have been very pleased with what I have seen. ------------------------------------------- > > This is the emperors clothes. I don't see any moderation of this > conceit, except here. I am pleased to have encountered this message. > I've been saved thirty-five years of being fooled and misled. The > humble, deflating, minimalist message I encounter here is just what is > needed. It must be hard to take after years of seeing otherwise. > I've come to it before I could go far wrong. --------------------------------------------- Howard: I'm happy for you that you have found what suits you. I also have found what suits me. -------------------------------------------- > > > > I accept that there are conditions which result in a human birth this > long after the Buddha taught, yet still in the fading years of the > saasana. We are here now due to conditions. We were not at the > Buddha's side due to conditions. We are burning but the flame is very > tender. We are priveledged to be able to discuss as we do here, with > such a high level of discourse. I appreciate your posts, not because > I agree, which I know you don't expect, but because I can study and > consider the views presented and plunge into the Dhamma. > > My questions regarding how you can be certain that the meditative > experiences you report are useful were not answered. > ---------------------------------------- Howard: I meditate because the Buddha taught it, suggesting ehipassiko. I have come and seen,and I am pleased with what I have seen. It rings true, and it matches what the Buddha taught. --------------------------------------- I think unusual> > experience can be a most dangerous thing. It is almost impossible to > let them go and not seek them again. > ---------------------------------------- Howard: LOL! I seek no experience except relinquishment. I engage in dana and service, meditate, engage in ongoing mindfulness practice, guard the senses, and study and consider the Dhamma for the purpose of cultivating the mind. It is a long-run matter, and I am looking only for peace and insight, not excitement. Jhana is a means to cultivate the mind and not an end in itself. --------------------------------------- How is seeking the things you> > describe anything more than craving? How do you know it is worth it > to you to continue to seek jhaana? Is it possible that you have not > experienced true jhaana because the conditions simply are not there, > despite the so-called 'intentional practise'? ----------------------------------------- Howard: I'm tiring of this, Scott. It is worse than annoying - it is utterly boring. ------------------------------------------- > > I've read many, many of the pro-intentional practise posts you craft > and you fail to convince me. Isn't this what you write these for? To > convince 'non-meditators'? ------------------------------------------ Howard: Frankly, no. I know people with blinders on when I see them. I write these posts for the sake of others. ------------------------------------------ > > These are serious questions. I've asked them myself, and come out as > you can see. Can you answer them? ------------------------------------------- Howard: I have. ------------------------------------------- > > H: "P.S. I don't pretend to be a "jhana" master. There was one time > only that I have strong confidence that I entered jhanas,and that was > brief. I am a rank amateur." > > Scott: Yes, thank you. I wasn't suggesting you were pretending to be > a jhaana master. You have gone on record many times with fond > descriptions of experiences gained during 'meditation'. You do seem > to enjoy and seek them over and over. I think this is wrong. Just an > opinion, as I know you realise. -------------------------------------------- Howard: I told you why I write as I write. -------------------------------------------- > > H: "P.P.S. Your stringing together what you found to be objectionable > sentences without the context is misleading. In any case, I know that > there was no anger behind what I wrote, thought there was exasperation > and unhappiness." > > Scott: The posts from which the quotes were culled just appeared in > the past day and a half. You wrote them - stand beside them. We all > just read them. I fail to see how the context is lost. I don't mind > - the statements were strongly worded and intense - so what. You have > explained yourself. I appreciate that. Were you to attempt to really > answer the questions here that would be excellent, however please > ignore if you wish - I can be most annoying I'm sure... --------------------------------------- Howard: Ah, self-knowledge! ;-) ---------------------------------------- > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > =================== With metta, Howard #74771 From: Dieter Möller Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 12:32 am Subject: question from a hermit moellerdieter Dear Nina (and Sarah), you wrote: 'The matter is more complicated. U Narada, Guide to Conditional Relations, p. 58, under Nutriment-condition, ahaara paccaya, explains that nutritive essence supports to produce Temperature-produced matter. :Thus we have to take into account ahaara-paccaya so that we can understand how there can be heat produced rupa, utuja ruupa.' D: I am only the messenger of a question the Venerable asked ( for to pass to Acharn Sujin) and due to a lack of deeper Abhidhamma knowledge not in a position to contribute or to comment. But it appears to me that the answer is not conclusive in respect to the paccaya relation, so I am afraid he may thank for the consideration with a remark, that it doesn't involve anything new to him. Should we leave it like that or do you like to come back on the topic once more later ? Either way is ok with me . with Metta Dieter #74772 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 12:32 am Subject: Re: Not Hard to Accept (Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Walking) nilovg Hi Howard, oops, you guys never seem to sleep! Let me try to add something to your post. Op 30-jul-2007, om 20:14 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Of course that sense is present, Nina, and in you as much as me. If > that were not so we would be arahants. And if one must be an > arahant in order to > move towards becoming an arahant, then there is no sense to > anything at all! > I do NOT believe there is an "I" who strives, ---------- N: No, the sotaapanna has eradicated the wrong view of self. The arahat has eradicated all conceit, but that is different from wrong view. Now, the eradication of wrong view does not happen suddenly, there is a long development step by step. Right from the beginning this goal has to be kept in mind. ------- H: It seems that what you think is appropriate for the likes of us is just to read and think about the Dhamma, visit "holy sites", and perhaps give dana to the Sangha. I reject this. ------- N: Good, do not hold anything back, express your views, as you said. Good for all of us to consider. Yes, we shall give sangha daana to hundred and twenty monks. We pay respect at those places where the Buddha went around and preached. There is opportunity for Recollection of the Buddha, not because we select any meditation subject, but because of conditions. Then, we discuss Dhamma every day with the goal to have a little more understanding. It is such a rare opportunity. We discuss satipatthana because this is the highest way to pay respect to the Buddha. We discuss the prefections that can be accumulated at the present moment, also when listening to the dhamma and considering it: patience, courage. You wanted to hear about experiences by monks. Did you read the post by Ven. Pannabahulo? He spoke about his experiences. He is in rains retreat now. He wrote: < "Why are there so few who really understand what Vipassana actually is – as opposed to those who hold a belief that it is some kind of walking and/or sitting technique?" "And why are there very few meditators who have attained even to the level of Sotapanna / Stream Enterer - despite the firm guarantees at the close of the Satipatthana Sutta and the effort and commitment they have put into the practice?" These are questions that are now beginning to be answered by the realization that I have been viewing the notion of `meditation practice' in the wrong way. Vipassana means insight and so Vipassana is wisdom. Wisdom is a Cetasika which can arise only when there are conditions for this to happen. This process cannot be forced because all Cetasikas are Anatta (non-self). I, and so many other meditators besides, fall into the trap of practicing to achieve something. But this is to run in the opposite direction to insight. > ------- I do not want to dissuade you from your meditation, do what you think fit for ourself, it is conditioned. Just one question: in what way is your breathing meditation different from yoga? I do not despise yoga, it is for one's wellbeing. I shall write another post about non-self. Nina. #74773 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 12:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] question from a hermit nilovg Dear Dieter, I understand. The question can only be asnwered indirectly, considering ahaara paccaya, because only conascence condition deals with rupa conditioning rupa, and the other relations deal with nama and rupa conditioning each other in different ways. It is not possible to answer in another way. Nina. Op 31-jul-2007, om 9:32 heeft Dieter Möller het volgende geschreven: > But it appears to me that the answer is not conclusive in respect > to the paccaya relation #74774 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 1:16 am Subject: Re: Not Hard to Accept (Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Walking) nilovg Hi Howard, Op 31-jul-2007, om 4:53 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > I found the idea that I have atta-view, after all > that I have written, to be amazing and silly to say the least. > Also, I'm afraid that just as many folks here are "protective" of the > Abhidhamma, I am the same as regards the possibility, in fact the > necessity, > of intentional practice. I consider the no-control and no > meditation ideas > expressed here to be an extreme that is a grave perversion of the > Dhamma ------- N: You answered : control but no controller. Very well. That does it. Of course I am acting in daily life all the time. But when it comes to cittas, it is necessary to realize that 'we cannot do anything', because cittas roll on according to their own 'natural order', niyama. Nobody can change the order of citas, we never know what citta arises next. If we are really convinced that trying or intention with an idea of self (even hidden, unnoticed) does not help, sati will arise because of its own conditions. It is not obstructed. I believe you when you say that you are convinced of non-self. Your experiences in meditation impressed you and were a reminder of this truth. But now it has to be applied to this very moment. We may know in theory that no self sees, but is the seeing known as pure nama, not mixed with rupa? We are not sotaapannas and thus there still is personality belief, sakkaaya di.t.thi. So long as we take nama and rupa together as a whole, they are taken for self. We have to understand the difference between pariyatti, partipatti and pativedha. I heard this on the Thai tape: < When sati of the level of satipatthana does not arise charactreistics are not known. When it arises, another step has been taken. There is no idea of 'I do". Sati is not the same as samaadhi. It arises for a very short time and then it falls away. There is no preparation. Pa~n~naa is anattaa and we should not wait for its arising or have expectations. Naama is the element that knows or experiences, it is not self. When we take the world as a whole there is no insight knowledge. Insight does not have anything to do with calm. ...> Thus, we may be firmly convinced of anattaa, but when sati arises because of its own conditions, not because of intentional practice, another step has been taken. There is a beginning of detachment from 'self who does it all' . If there is no beginning, there will not be accomplishment. Do you find all this a 'grave perversion of the Dhamma ' ? You can speak freely, that is fine. Nina. #74775 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 2:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] question from a hermit sarahprocter... Dear Dieter (Sukin & Nina), Firstly, thank you very much for going to the trouble to re-type the Bhikkhu's question, add your introduction and post it here. As I understand the question, in simple English, it is: Temperature (tejo or utu) is given as one of the 4 causes of all rupas. (The other three being citta, kamma and nutriment). The rupas outside the body are only caused by temperature. Whereas for rupas conditioned by citta, kamma and nutriment, it is easy to point to conditions (amongst the 24)under which they fall. When it comes to rupas conditioned by temperature (utuja rupas), it's not so clear at all. As Nina has explained, sahajata paccaya (conascence condition) doesn't apply as this only includes rupas conditioning each other in a kalapa (group), but not rupas arising subsequently. With regard to nutriment condition (below), I understand it's an essential support with regard to temperature/heat produced rupas in the body only, (depending on food eaten), but I also don't see it as conclusive in terms of all rupas conditioned by temperature either. You might consider just sending a brief holding reply while we continue to discuss the question (if I've got it right). As the bhikkhu also particularly wanted A.Sujin's input, Sukin might also raise the question at the Foundation to see if she has anything to add to Nina's helpful comments. Otherwise, we can do so when we see her, but this won't be until October. Again, I apologise for the extra trouble I've put you to, but others may also benefit from the reflections. Metta, Sarah ============ --- Dieter Möller wrote: > Dear Nina (and Sarah), > > you wrote: > > 'The matter is more complicated. U Narada, Guide to Conditional > Relations, p. 58, under Nutriment-condition, ahaara paccaya, explains > that nutritive essence supports to produce Temperature-produced matter. > : keep it uniform throughout and then increase it. By this support heat > becomes vigorous and produces fresh temperature-produced matter. ...All > materialities are at the will and mercy of heat (tejo). It exists > because of heat and is greatly dependent on it. But > this heat, in turn, has to depend on nutritive essence as fuel and has > to be maintained by the food taken. Thus nutrutive essence is the source > of heat. That is why nutritive essence, as physical nutriment, is taken > separately in nutriment condition.>Thus we have to take into account > ahaara-paccaya so that we can understand how there can be heat produced > rupa, utuja ruupa.' > > D: I am only the messenger of a question the Venerable asked ( for to > pass to Acharn Sujin) and due to a lack of deeper Abhidhamma knowledge > not in a position to contribute or to comment. > > But it appears to me that the answer is not conclusive in respect to > the paccaya relation, > so I am afraid he may thank for the consideration with a remark, that > it doesn't involve anything new to him. > Should we leave it like that or do you like to come back on the topic > once more later ? > Either way is ok with me . #74776 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 2:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: satipatthana as island of refuge sarahprocter... Hi Tep, --- Tep Sastri wrote: > S: In the context of another sutta you've quoted on saddha as > support, I see saddha as being a support for all kusala by its nature > of arising with all kusala. At such moments, there is confidence > in 'good', don't you think? > > T: Yes, I think so too. Saddha arises with kusala citta following > good listening to (or reflecting on) the Dhamma, then there is yoniso- > manasikara that is the top of all kusala. (Kusala Sutta in Samyutta > Nikaya, Mahavagga - Nivaranavagga) ... S: Just as there are different degrees and kinds of saddha, (saddha accompanying all kusala cittas, even for those who have never heard the Dhamma), so I understood yoniso manasikara to refer to all series of kusala cittas. Whenever there is any kind of kusala, there is a guarding of the senses, there is yoniso manasikara. However, again as we agree, we need to consider the context. In some contexts, any guarding and any wise attention refer to the development of satipatthana, or insights into paramattha dhammas leading to enlightenment. How does this sound? Again, I don't have the sutta you refer to at hand. Pls let me know if you have other ideas or if there is a relevant part of the sutta to quote. Metta, Sarah p.s Thx for your understanding about any delays. Good to be hearing your considered reflections again, Tep. ========== #74777 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 3:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Walking and General Deportment of the Body sarahprocter... Dear Azita & Scott, Azita, thanks for sharing the happy news that all is well for Zoe and baby. Like Nina, we remember Zoe as a baby very well too when we were all in Sri Lanka together. Nina remembers the tears and even my assistance. I don't at all, but I remember her being rescued from my friend's swimming pool and a puddle or two! Sanna works in strange ways according to our perverted accumulations:-) I liked this: "...and in reality there is no Zoe or grandson or me, just the 5 khandhas who/which belong to no-one. I often think of the khandhas - I like to recall that the khandhas is all there is." Yes, that's it! 'All there is'. I also thought Scott wrote the following very well: --- Scott Duncan wrote: > With the sense that 'I' study, 'I' come to conclusions, 'I' think for > 'myself', 'I am' open-minded, 'I am' learning things, 'I discuss' > things, etc., there is an experience of being a part of these actions > - of an identification with them. They are claimed and subsumed > under the idea of self - but this is just part of experience, perhaps > not even thought about. And this is obscuration. > > It is just seeing and thinking. It rolls on. When the sutta's say, > 'A bhikkhu does such-and-such', an idea of self clings to the notion > of someone - a bhikkhu, or this means 'me' too - who is doing > something, or is told to do something. Without an idea of self, > 'bhikkhu' is just a given moment of consciousness, just a certain > constellation of conditioned dhammas. > > When it is not just views, there is attachment to 'my ideas' and 'my > feelings' about 'his or her ideas', and to 'I am right' or 'I am wrong'. > > Given that there is only one way in which Dhamma can be right, and > only certain dhammas the function of which is to determine this, then > there can be no question of someone learning and someone getting it > right. This understanding makes it possible, then, to use > conventional language and not become confused by it. ... Sarah: And no one making slow progress, attaining insights, getting sati, realising jhanas. Just dhammas rolling on, whatever language we use. No need for any conflict with or change in our usual conventional language. So Azita, enjoy your new-found baby-filled days! Most friends report that being a grandma is a real joy compared to being a young mum. Metta, Sarah ========== #74778 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 3:50 am Subject: Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness jonoabb Hi Swee Boon --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > > Hi Nina, > > > (a) *There is the case where* a monk, > > (b) *having gone to the wilderness*, to the shade of a tree, > > or to an empty building, sits down folding his legs crosswise, > > holding his body erect, > > (c) and *sets mindfulness to the fore*. > > (d) *Always mindful*, he breathes in·" > > > > Again, this is a "case where" situation, not a "do this" passage > > [par. (a)]. To my reading, it refers to a particular class of > > monk, namely one who is not only leading the homeless life but is > > doing so in the manner recommended by the Buddha for those who wish > > to develop samatha to a high degree [par. (b)], and in whom both > > samatha with breath as object and mindfulness/satipatthana are well > > developed [par. (c) and (d)]. > > Who else could 'set mindfulness to the fore' and be 'always > > mindful' when breathing? > > It is to such a person that the rest of the sutta is pitched. > > In that case, Nina, you may throw DN 22 out the window. > > I mean, you might just as well throw sati out the window! > > Can we find your interpretation in any commentary, sub-commentary, > sub-sub-commentary, etc? > > Or do we find it in a Khun Sujin commentary? Below are some selected excerpts from the commentary to the same passage in the Satipatthana Sutta (also the same as in DN 22). The full text of the commentary is at http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/ authors/soma/wayof.html#breathing I think it supports the interpretation that this particular teaching is directed not to monks in general but to monks who are following a particular lifestyle and who are well advanced in the development of samatha. How do you read it? > Or are you reading too much into a four-letter word? Not sure what four-letter word you are referring to here. Would you mind elaborating, please. Thanks. Jon [Text:] Araññagato va... suññagaragato va = "Gone to the forest... or to an empty place." [Commentary:] By this, here is the making clear of the getting of an abode appropriate to the meditator for the culture of mindfulness. The mind of the meditator which for a long time (before he became a recluse) had dwelt on visual and other objects, does not like to enter the road of meditation and just like a wild young bull yoked to a cart, runs off the road. ... In this way this abode becomes appropriate in the meditator. Therefore, it is said, "This (namely, the passage beginning with the words, 'Gone to the forest...') is the making clear of an abode appropriate to the meditator for the culture of mindfulness." Because the subject of meditation of mindfulness on in-and-out- breathing is not easy to accomplish without leaving the neighbourhood of a village, owing to sound, which is a thorn to absorption; and because in a place not become a township it is easy for the meditator to lay hold of this subject of meditation, the Blessed One, pointing out the abode suitable for that, spoke the words, "Gone to the forest," and so forth. ... The bhikkhu indeed, is comparable to a leopard, because like the leopard he lives alone, in the forest, and accomplishes his aim, by overcoming those contrary to him, namely, the passions. ... And so the Blessed One, pointing out the forest abode, the fit place for speedy exertion in the practice of meditation, said "Gone to the forest," and so forth. #74779 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 12:46 am Subject: Re: Not Hard to Accept (Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Walking) upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 7/31/07 3:36:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Just one question: in what way is > your breathing meditation different from yoga? I do not despise yoga, > it is for one's wellbeing. > ===================== Thank you for your kind post. Breathing meditation as taught by the Buddha in the Anapanasati Sutta and elsewhere, as all strictly Buddhist meditation, differs from meditation of other traditions in its investigation of dhammas, cultivating not only calm but also wisdom. At least that is how I see this matter. With metta, Howard #74780 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 6:08 am Subject: Re: Not Hard to Accept (Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Walking) nilovg Hi Howard, Thank you for your answer. Then it should also lead to detachment, I think. Once in Sri Lanka we discussed it and Kh Sujin said: we all find breath very important, but it is only a tiny rupa. Our life depends on it, but we should not cling to it. Nina. Op 31-jul-2007, om 13:46 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Breathing meditation as taught by the > Buddha in the Anapanasati Sutta and elsewhere, as all strictly > Buddhist > meditation, differs from meditation of other traditions in its > investigation of > dhammas, cultivating not only calm but also wisdom. At least that > is how I see this > matter. #74781 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 6:40 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (64) nichiconn Dear Friends, 11. Dvaadasakanipaato 1. Uppalava.n.naatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa part 3 txt: Saa tato cavitvaa pabbatapaade ekasmi.m padumasare padumagabbhe nibbatti. Ta.m nissaaya eko taapaso vasati. So paatova mukhadhovanatthaaya sara.m gantvaa ta.m puppha.m disvaa cintesi- "ida.m puppha.m sesehi mahantatara.m, sesaani ca pupphitaani ida.m makulitameva, bhavitabbamettha kaara.nenaa"ti Pruitt: Passing away from there, she was born in the calyx of a lotus in a certain lotus pond at the foot of a mountain. An ascetic lived near there. One morning, he went to the pond in order to wash his face. Seeing the flower, he thought, "This flower is bigger than the others. And the others are in flower, but this one is in bud. There must be a reason for this." udaka.m otaritvaa ta.m puppha.m ga.nhi. Ta.m tena gahitamattameva pupphita.m. Taapaso antopadumagabbhe nipannadaarika.m addasa. Di.t.thakaalato pa.t.thaaya ca dhiitusineha.m labhitvaa padumeneva saddhi.m pa.n.nasaala.m netvaa ma~ncake nipajjaapesi. Athassaa pu~n~naanubhaavena a"ngu.t.thake khiira.m nibbatti. So tasmi.m pupphe milaate a~n~na.m nava.m puppha.m aaharitvaa ta.m nipajjaapesi. Athassaa aadhaavanavidhaavanena kii.litu.m samatthakaalato pa.t.thaaya padavaare padavaare padumapuppha.m u.t.thaati, ku"nkumaraasissa viya assaa sariirava.n.no hoti. Saa apattaa devava.n.na.m, atikkantaa maanusava.n.na.m ahosi. He descended into the water and took the flower. Then as soon as he took it, it blossomed. And the ascetic saw a young girl lying in the calyx of the lotus. From the moment he saw her, he had affection for her as a daughter. Then he took the lotus with him to his hut of leaves and laid her down on a couch. And through the power of her merit, milk arose on his thumb. When that flower withered, he brought another fresh flower and laid her on it. From the time she was able to play, running up and down, a lotus flower appeared at every step she took. The colour of her body was like a heap of saffron. Although she did not have the complexion of the devas, she did surpass [the beauty of] human complexion. Saa pitari phalaaphalatthaaya gate pa.n.nasaalaaya.m ohiyati. Athekadivasa.m tassaa vayappattakaale pitari phalaaphalatthaaya gate eko vanacarako ta.m disvaa cintesi- "manussaana.m naama eva.mvidha.m ruupa.m natthi, viima.msissaami nan"ti taapasassa aagamana.m udikkhanto nisiidi. When her father went to get various fruits, she was left behind in the hut of leaves. Then one day, when she had come of age, while her father was out seeking various fruits, a woodsman saw her and thought, "Such a beauty is not human. I will investigate this." Then he sat down and waited for the ascetic to come back. ===tbc, connie. #74782 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 2:27 am Subject: Re: Not Hard to Accept (Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Walking) upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 7/31/07 4:58:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > Op 31-jul-2007, om 4:53 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > > >I found the idea that I have atta-view, after all > >that I have written, to be amazing and silly to say the least. > >Also, I'm afraid that just as many folks here are "protective" of the > >Abhidhamma, I am the same as regards the possibility, in fact the > >necessity, > >of intentional practice. I consider the no-control and no > >meditation ideas > >expressed here to be an extreme that is a grave perversion of the > >Dhamma > ------- > N: You answered : control but no controller. Very well. That does it. > Of course I am acting in daily life all the time. But when it comes > to cittas, it is necessary to realize that 'we cannot do anything', > because cittas roll on according to their own 'natural order', > niyama. Nobody can change the order of citas, we never know what > citta arises next. ----------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, there is no "I" to do anything at all. There are just doings. We *call* all the doing something done "by me". When that is more than a manner of speaking as regards belief, that is atta-view. -------------------------------------- > If we are really convinced that trying or intention with an idea of > self (even hidden, unnoticed) does not help, sati will arise because > of its own conditions. It is not obstructed. > I believe you when you say that you are convinced of non-self. Your > experiences in meditation impressed you and were a reminder of this > truth. But now it has to be applied to this very moment. We may know > in theory that no self sees, but is the seeing known as pure nama, > not mixed with rupa? > ---------------------------------------- Howard: I perceive seeing as nothing but a type of consciousness. That is how I see it. -------------------------------------------- We are not sotaapannas and thus there still is > > personality belief, sakkaaya di.t.thi. So long as we take nama and > rupa together as a whole, they are taken for self. --------------------------------------------- Howard: For me, nama and rupa are radically different. -------------------------------------------- > We have to understand the difference between pariyatti, partipatti > and pativedha. > I heard this on the Thai tape: > charactreistics are not known. When it arises, another step has been > taken. There is no idea of 'I do". Sati is not the same as samaadhi. > It arises for a very short time and then it falls away. There is no > preparation. Pa~n~naa is anattaa and we should not wait for its > arising or have expectations. > Naama is the element that knows or experiences, it is not self. When > we take the world as a whole there is no insight knowledge. Insight > does not have anything to do with calm. ...> > > Thus, we may be firmly convinced of anattaa, but when sati arises > because of its own conditions, not because of intentional practice, > another step has been taken. There is a beginning of detachment from > 'self who does it all' > . If there is no beginning, there will not be accomplishment. > Do you find all this a 'grave perversion of the Dhamma ' ? > ------------------------------------------- Howard: I find dismissing cetana/kamma - radically underestimating it - is a perversion of the Dhamma. ----------------------------------------- You can > > speak freely, that is fine. ----------------------------------------- Howard: Thank you, Nina. I am happy with being honest and not having it taken as an attack I appreciate that. ---------------------------------------- > Nina. > =================== With metta, Howard #74783 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 6:35 am Subject: Conditions, Ch 9, no 3. nilovg Dear friends, The heart-base is the base for all the cittas other than the five pairs of sense-cognitions (seeing, hearing, etc., which are either kusala vipåka or akusala vipåka), and it conditions them by way of prenascence-condition. It is only at the moment of rebirth that the heart-base conditions the patisandhi-citta by way of conascence- condition, sahajåta paccaya. At that moment kamma produces the patisandhi-citta and the heart-base simultaneously (see Ch 5). We read in the “Patthåna (same section as the above quoted text, XII) where the heart-base is referred to as “this matter” : Depending on this matter, mind-element and mind-consciousness- element arise; that matter is related to mind-element and its associated states by prenascence-condition; is sometimes related to mind-consciousness-element and its associated states by prenascence- condition, and is sometimes not related by prenascence-condition. Mind-element, mano-dhåtu, includes the pañca-dvåråvajjana-citta, five- door adverting-consciousness, and the two types of sampaticchana- citta, receiving-consciousness, which are kusala vipåka and akusala vipåka. Mind-consciousness-element, mano-viññåna-dhåtu, includes the cittas other than the dvi-pañca-viññånas (two pairs of sense- cognitions) and the cittas classified as mind-element. Thus, the mind- consciousness element which is not conditioned by heart-base by way of prenascence, as referred to in the text, is the patisandhi-citta. This citta is conditioned by heart-base by way of conascence. It is of no use to speculate where the heart-base is, but we should know that cittas do not arise outside the body. In the planes of existence where there are five khandhas, namely nåma and rúpa, each citta needs a physical base or place of origin, and these are the five sense-bases and the heart-base. This reminds us of the interdependence of nåma and rúpa from birth to death. ******* Nina. #74784 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 6:38 am Subject: Listening to the Dhamma, Ch 7, no 5. nilovg Dear friends, The Buddha explained in detail what kusala is and what akusala, and he taught the development of satipatthåna which eventually leads to freedom from defilements. When we develop satipatthåna we actually take our refuge in the Buddha. To what extent we take refuge in him depends on the development of understanding. People have fear of accidents, sickness, death and rebirth, but the recollection of the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha can banish all fear. We read in the “Kindred Sayings” (I, Sagåthå-Vagga, Ch XI, Sakka, 3, The Top of the Banner) that the Buddha explained to the monks that when they dwell in the forest or empty places and fear would arise, they should recollect the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha. We can apply his advice in our own situation, when we have an occasion to be fearful. The Buddha spoke in the following verse: Whenever in forest or in leafy shade Or lonely empty places you abide, Call to your mind, bhikkhus, the Enlightened One; No fear, no sense of peril will you know. Or if you cannot on the Buddha think— The chief, the senior of the world, the Bull of men— Then call to mind the Dhamma, the well-taught guide. Or if you cannot think of the Dhamma— The well-taught doctrine wherein guidance lies— Then turn your thoughts to the Community, Unrivalled field where men may sow good deeds. If you in Buddha, Dhamma, Community thus refuge take, Fear, panic, creeping of the flesh will never arise. ******* Nina. #74785 From: "nidive" Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 8:20 am Subject: Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness nidive Hi Jon, > I think it supports the interpretation that this particular > teaching is directed not to monks in general but to monks who are > following a particular lifestyle and who are well advanced in the > development of samatha. > How do you read it? I disagree. If you had carefully read this passage below, ----------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/soma/wayof.html#breathing The mind of the meditator which for a long time (before he became a recluse) had dwelt on visual and other objects, does not like to enter the road of meditation and just like a wild young bull yoked to a cart, runs off the road. ... ----------------------------------------------------------------- it says that the meditator does not like to enter the road of meditation. This suggests that the meditator is a rookie and not a meditation guru. That's why he has to be "gone into the forest or to an empty place" because that helps a lot to promote the cultivation of mindfulness for a rookie. > > Or are you reading too much into a four-letter word? > > Not sure what four-letter word you are referring to here. Would > you mind elaborating, please. Thanks. I was referring to the word CASE, where Nina contrasted between a "case where" situation and a "do this" situation. For your information, Thanissaro's translation of DN 22 starts off with "there is the case where a monk" for each of the four frames of reference. Swee Boon #74786 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 8:39 am Subject: Not Hard to Accept (Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Walking) scottduncan2 Dear Howard, Thanks for answering my questions. I appreciate the clarifications. I realise that the questions are difficult ones. I think, at least for me, that they are very important. I'm glad you replied. I think that being direct can be misunderstood. I'm glad you didn't seem to. I know I can come across annoying (Howard: "Ah, self-knowledge! ;-)"- good one!!) and I don' mean to, but I sometimes feel the importance of pursuing these questions. I mean to go beneath the polemics to the actual heart of the matter. You are kind to persist with me. This, it is clear, is your practise, and I appreciate it. I don't have many contacts with those, like yourself, whose study of the Dhamma spans decades. Also, you stand as a staunch apologist for 'intentional practise', which, as you say, is widespread - except for this tiny corner. And this, I suppose, sets you up as a sort of target for stringy little gun-slingers with pop-guns like me. Shoot out at the DSG corral - ha. Here on the list, at least as I've come to see it, you stand as a strong voice for this view. As a beginner asking you the hard questions is like having a deep mine to enter. I may not agree with you, or others, but I definitely think about what is said. I know that it is like reinventing the wheel for a beginner to go over these things but I like to know how others have grappled with these things. I also realise that, in the end, it is one's own experience that matters, as you note many times. You once told me you appreciated the desire I have, not so much to think for myself on matters of Dhamma, but to question things. I hope you don't mind me thinking of you as representing the 'status quo' and questioning you accordingly. It reminds me of what Pete Townshend (of The Who - you know composer of that awful music you and Nina find so deplorable) said when questioned as to what he thought of The Beatles, who were, at the time, the revered status quo of rock music. He went on to say, after describing how he had separated out and listened to their playing track by track, that they were 'flippin' lousy'. I fear, since I rather enjoyed his remark, that I too have an annoying tendency towards arrogance. You've seen it, and, hopefully are used to me by now. I'm the most arrogant guy I know, in fact. Give me a few aeons and you'll hardly know me! Howard: "Any intentional action is an action motivated by intention. Ninety-nine percent of all our actions are intentional. The Buddha acted intentionally as well. Atta-view is belief in self. One does not need to believe in a self to sit down or stand up, but they are intentional actions." Scott: I'm not sure if you wish to proceed, and so will leave that to you. To the above I'd ask: 1) What is the one-percent of our actions that are not intentional? 2) What do you think of this statement: 'Intention is a mental factor which arises with every moment of consciousness and is the equivalent of action'? Howard: "I do not maintain there is no control. I maintain there is no controller. The answer to your last two questions is 'No one!'" Scott: Are you saying that a function of cetanaa is control? Or that 'control' is its characteristic? Or it controls therefore it is cetanaa? Howard: "I consider those assertions to be nonsense. What is not available to us - unfortunately - is the Buddha. But we do have his Dhamma." Scott: I think my assertions are nonsense as well! And yeah, we do have the Dhamma which, as I said, I know you totally dig. Howard: "I don't know what you have seen of Buddhism and Buddhist teachers. I have been very pleased with what I have seen." Scott: You're perhaps lucky here. I can be accused of harbouring a deep lack of trust of teachers. This might be a spill-over from my equally annoying attitude towards the purveyors of pop-psychology - all those ludicrous claims and all that psycho-babble, not to mention the endless hopefully hopeless yearning of the sufferer for relief at any cost. You might think I've thrown out the baby with the bath-water. I've heard the aphorism that, 'when the student is ready the teacher will appear'. For me, perhaps for you at this point, this teacher is the Dhamma - not a person. Howard: "I'm happy for you that you have found what suits you. I also have found what suits me." Scott: Thanks, Howard. Howard: "I meditate because the Buddha taught it, suggesting ehipassiko. I have come and seen,and I am pleased with what I have seen. It rings true, and it matches what the Buddha taught." Scott: Right on, man. What is 'ehipassiko'? Howard: "LOL! I seek no experience except relinquishment. I engage in dana and service, meditate, engage in ongoing mindfulness practice, guard the senses, and study and consider the Dhamma for the purpose of cultivating the mind. It is a long-run matter, and I am looking only for peace and insight, not excitement. Jhana is a means to cultivate the mind and not an end in itself." Scott: This is exemplary, Howard. I've never thought otherwise. I agree it is a 'long-run matter'. Howard: "I'm tiring of this, Scott. It is worse than annoying - it is utterly boring." Scott: At least utter boredom is closer to the peaceful end of the spectrum than to the excitement end... ;-) Howard: "Frankly, no. I know people with blinders on when I see them. I write these posts for the sake of others." Scott: Thanks for your patience - well, what there is of it, lol ;-) I know I am a most annoying fellow. And hopelessly blinkered, to boot. You always at least try to respond, which I appreciate. As always, Howard, I don't mind if you ignore the my drivel. If you reply I'll really intentionally force myself to be the epitome of non-annoyance and non-boring - although, if I do, it won't actually be me doing it, will it? I mean, it'll be some dhamma or other won't it... Peace, Howard! Sincerely, Scott. #74787 From: "nidive" Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:18 am Subject: Not Hard to Accept (Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Walking) nidive Hi Scott, > These assertions are the saving grace of what is discussed here, no > matter what side of the fence one is on. In the rest of the Buddhist > world I see confusion and misunderstanding. I see claims by teachers > of lineages and practises designed to hasten the moment of > enlightenment. I see a whole ethos of how to look, act, dress, and > sound like 'a buddhist'. > This is the emperors clothes. I don't see any moderation of this > conceit, except here. I am pleased to have encountered this message. > I've been saved thirty-five years of being fooled and misled. The > humble, deflating, minimalist message I encounter here is just what > is needed. It must be hard to take after years of seeing otherwise. > I've come to it before I could go far wrong. And how do you know you have not been fooled? Are you an ariyan? What you experienced is not unique to Buddhism. The same kind of experience can also be obtained in other religions such as Chrisitianity. Humbleness is not a quality unique to Buddhism. What you are after is nothing but a pleasant mental feeling of "belonging" based on a series of mind constructed events. Based on that pleasant mental feeling, one construes a truism. However fleeting and evanescent that pleasant feeling is, however fleeting and evanescent that construed truism is. Yet, this is how the world goes into bondage as slaves of their own feelings. Just my worthless comments, anyway. Swee Boon #74788 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:18 am Subject: Not Hard to Accept (Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Walking) scottduncan2 Dear Swee Boon, Thanks for the comments. Sincerely, Scott. #74789 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 7:14 am Subject: Re: Not Hard to Accept (Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Walking) upasaka_howard Hi, Scott - Thank you for a very warm and open post! I give a few replies below, in context. In a message dated 7/31/07 11:40:32 AM Eastern Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: > Dear Howard, > > Thanks for answering my questions. I appreciate the clarifications. > I realise that the questions are difficult ones. I think, at least > for me, that they are very important. I'm glad you replied. I think > that being direct can be misunderstood. I'm glad you didn't seem to. > I know I can come across annoying (Howard: "Ah, self-knowledge! ;-)"- > good one!!) and I don' mean to, but I sometimes feel the importance of > pursuing these questions. I mean to go beneath the polemics to the > actual heart of the matter. You are kind to persist with me. This, > it is clear, is your practise, and I appreciate it. > > I don't have many contacts with those, like yourself, whose study of > the Dhamma spans decades. Also, you stand as a staunch apologist for > 'intentional practise', which, as you say, is widespread - except for > this tiny corner. And this, I suppose, sets you up as a sort of > target for stringy little gun-slingers with pop-guns like me. Shoot > out at the DSG corral - ha. > > Here on the list, at least as I've come to see it, you stand as a > strong voice for this view. As a beginner asking you the hard > questions is like having a deep mine to enter. I may not agree with > you, or others, but I definitely think about what is said. I know > that it is like reinventing the wheel for a beginner to go over these > things but I like to know how others have grappled with these things. > I also realise that, in the end, it is one's own experience that > matters, as you note many times. > > You once told me you appreciated the desire I have, not so much to > think for myself on matters of Dhamma, but to question things. I hope > you don't mind me thinking of you as representing the 'status quo' and > questioning you accordingly. > > It reminds me of what Pete Townshend (of The Who - you know composer > of that awful music you and Nina find so deplorable) said when > questioned as to what he thought of The Beatles, who were, at the > time, the revered status quo of rock music. ------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't deplore it. (I'm not sure why you think so.) I rather liked Tommy, for example. -------------------------------------------- He went on to say, after> > describing how he had separated out and listened to their playing > track by track, that they were 'flippin' lousy'. > -------------------------------------------- Howard: LOL! Well.I liked the Beatles even more! ----------------------------------------- I fear, since I > rather enjoyed his remark, that I too have an annoying > tendency > towards arrogance. You've seen it, and, hopefully are used to me by > now. I'm the most arrogant guy I know, in fact. Give me a few aeons > and you'll hardly know me! > > Howard: "Any intentional action is an action motivated by intention. > Ninety-nine percent of all our actions are intentional. The Buddha > acted intentionally as well. Atta-view is belief in self. One does not > need to believe in a self to sit down or stand up, but they are > intentional actions." > > Scott: I'm not sure if you wish to proceed, and so will leave that to > you. To the above I'd ask: > > 1) What is the one-percent of our actions that are not intentional? --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, I suppose all states of passive consciousness - hearing, seeing, and so on. These may be very recently preceded by intention (as the intention to open one's eyes or to listen carefully), and, of course, these states were *conditioned* by intention possibly far in the past. Also, of course, physical reflex actions are included. Actually, as I think about it, not counting the intentional conditioning of these states, they probably constitute considerably more than 1%. ---------------------------------------- > > 2) What do you think of this statement: 'Intention is a mental > factor which arises with every moment of consciousness and is the > equivalent of action'? ------------------------------------------- Howard: I know that the official Abhidhammic take on this is that cetana is a universal, but it does not seem to me that intention arises all the time. Not every state seems to me to carry the "impulsion" that I think of as cetana. Where is there any intention/volition involved in mere seeing for example? ----------------------------------------- > > Howard: "I do not maintain there is no control. I maintain there is no > controller. The answer to your last two questions is 'No one!'" > > Scott: Are you saying that a function of cetanaa is control? Or that > 'control' is its characteristic? Or it controls therefore it is cetanaa? ------------------------------------------- Howard: I'm saying that it is an influencing of a sort, a kind of "pushing towards an end". I prefer 'influence' to 'control', as 'control' has an overly strong connotation for me. All dhammas, cetana or others, are merely conditions, not conclusive determiners. ------------------------------------------ > > Howard: "I consider those assertions to be nonsense. What is not > available to us - unfortunately - is the Buddha. But we do have his > Dhamma." > > Scott: I think my assertions are nonsense as well! And yeah, we do > have the Dhamma which, as I said, I know you totally dig. > > Howard: "I don't know what you have seen of Buddhism and Buddhist > teachers. I have been very pleased with what I have seen." > > Scott: You're perhaps lucky here. I can be accused of harbouring a > deep lack of trust of teachers. This might be a spill-over from my > equally annoying attitude towards the purveyors of pop-psychology - > all those ludicrous claims and all that psycho-babble, not to mention > the endless hopefully hopeless yearning of the sufferer for relief at > any cost. You might think I've thrown out the baby with the > bath-water. I've heard the aphorism that, 'when the student is ready > the teacher will appear'. For me, perhaps for you at this point, this > teacher is the Dhamma - not a person. -------------------------------------- Howard: I've come across a number of good teachers but have not come across "my teacher" yet - except the Buddha, in absentia. --------------------------------------- > > Howard: "I'm happy for you that you have found what suits you. I also > have found what suits me." > > Scott: Thanks, Howard. > > Howard: "I meditate because the Buddha taught it, suggesting > ehipassiko. I have come and seen, and I am pleased with what I have > seen. It rings true, and it matches what the Buddha taught." > > Scott: Right on, man. What is 'ehipassiko'? ------------------------------------------ Howard: I'm sorry - it means "come and see". Instead of the Buddha saying "The Dhamma I teach is the true Dhamma - just accept it," he said to check it out for oneself. How amazing and wonderful, I think! :-) -------------------------------------------- > > Howard: "LOL! I seek no experience except relinquishment. I engage in > dana and service, meditate, engage in ongoing mindfulness practice, > guard the senses, and study and consider the Dhamma for the purpose of > cultivating the mind. It is a long-run matter, and I am looking only > for peace and insight, not excitement. Jhana is a means to cultivate > the mind and not an end in itself." > > Scott: This is exemplary, Howard. I've never thought otherwise. I > agree it is a 'long-run matter'. > > Howard: "I'm tiring of this, Scott. It is worse than annoying - it is > utterly boring." > > Scott: At least utter boredom is closer to the peaceful end of the > spectrum than to the excitement end... ;-) ---------------------------------------------- Howard: I apologize for saying that, Scott, especially in the context of replying to this really lovely post of yours. ------------------------------------------------ > > Howard: "Frankly, no. I know people with blinders on when I see them. > I write these posts for the sake of others." > > Scott: Thanks for your patience - well, what there is of it, lol ;-) > I know I am a most annoying fellow. And hopelessly blinkered, to > boot. You always at least try to respond, which I appreciate. As > always, Howard, I don't mind if you ignore the my drivel. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: I could never ignore a post as kindly and warm as this one of yours, Scott. It is a pleasure to reply to. ---------------------------------------------- > > If you reply I'll really intentionally force myself to be the epitome > of non-annoyance and non-boring - although, if I do, it won't actually > be me doing it, will it? I mean, it'll be some dhamma or other won't > it... > > Peace, Howard! ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Thank you, Scott. And to you, peace. :-) ------------------------------------------------ > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > ======================= With metta, Howard #74790 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 11:29 am Subject: Re: Not Hard to Accept (Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Walking) nilovg Hi Howard, Op 31-jul-2007, om 15:27 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Thank you, Nina. I am happy with being honest and not having it taken > as an attack I appreciate that. ------- N: I discussed your posts with Lodewijk. I keep on trying to explain to him the difference between thinking (even quick thinking without words) and awareness, but at times he becomes emotional, frustrated, and he even shouts! I asked him whether he can sense it when a feeling of self comes in, self feeling, self thinking, and he understands that. That is already a degree of pa~n~naa, I believe. It is not easy to realize that. (Perhaps Scott can explain more, he is such a good observer, that is also his profession). Someone said before that the borderline between thinking of dhamma (I would say: considering the present reality) and direct awareness is very tiny. These things have to be understood step by step, very gradually, I think. When time permits I should continue with 'Keang Krachang again' for Lodewijk. This Saturday we have a four day walking trip again and time to discuss this matter more. I shall think matters over. Lodewijk says that he can feel with you. I used to think long ago that I could be directly aware of different dhammas, one at a time, through different doorways, but I had to find out that it was not right awareness. It took a whole night discussion in India in the train to Bodhgaya with Kh. Sujin, The late bhikkhu Dhammadharo, Jon and a few others. I still hear Kh Sujin say: 'Some people think that they have a lot of awareness...' We may think that we know that seeing is not visible object, but this is not the first stage of insight. As Kh Sujin explained: at that stage it is realized directly what the mind-door is, and there is no world, no self, no self who knows. When vipassana ~naa.na falls away the world appears as usual she said. I think that when it goes to the very bone that 'we' cannot do anything to have sati, but that we should 'let' it come by conditions, there will be a lessening of the tendency to always cling to self who does it. As Jon said, we came into this world with a deeply held wrong view. We are so used to cling to 'me' that we do not know any better, do not even notice it. You said: Cetana is certainly not dismissed, how could it? It arises anyway, nobody can prevent it from arising. It is a cetasika that is conditioned. Perhaps all these things need more explanation and misunderstandings could be avoided. ------- Nina. #74791 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 8:26 am Subject: Re: Not Hard to Accept (Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Walking) upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 7/31/07 2:31:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > Op 31-jul-2007, om 15:27 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > > >Thank you, Nina. I am happy with being honest and not having it taken > >as an attack I appreciate that. > ------- > N: I discussed your posts with Lodewijk. I keep on trying to explain > to him the difference between thinking (even quick thinking without > words) and awareness, but at times he becomes emotional, frustrated, > and he even shouts! ---------------------------------------------- Howard: I find myself smiling at this (out of empathy), but, of course, I'm sorry for Lodewijk's upset. ------------------------------------------- > I asked him whether he can sense it when a feeling of self comes in, > self feeling, self thinking, and he understands that. That is already > a degree of pa~n~naa, I believe. It is not easy to realize that. > (Perhaps Scott can explain more, he is such a good observer, that is > also his profession). ---------------------------------------- Howard: It's really important to be aware of sense of self. Sometimes it can be missed. And sometimes, rarely, it isn't present. But it is always present during moments of craving and of aversion. --------------------------------------- > Someone said before that the borderline between thinking of dhamma (I > would say: considering the present reality) and direct awareness is > very tiny. These things have to be understood step by step, very > gradually, I think. When time permits I should continue with 'Keang > Krachang again' for Lodewijk. > This Saturday we have a four day walking trip again and time to > discuss this matter more. I shall think matters over. Lodewijk says > that he can feel with you. ----------------------------------------- Howard: :-) I think that he and I are muy sympatico! (Is that the correct Spanish expression?) ------------------------------------------ > > I used to think long ago that I could be directly aware of different > dhammas, one at a time, through different doorways, but I had to find > out that it was not right awareness. It took a whole night discussion > in India in the train to Bodhgaya with Kh. Sujin, The late bhikkhu > Dhammadharo, Jon and a few others. I still hear Kh Sujin say: 'Some > people think that they have a lot of awareness...' > We may think that we know that seeing is not visible object, but this > is not the first stage of insight. As Kh Sujin explained: at that > stage it is realized directly what the mind-door is, and there is no > world, no self, no self who knows. When vipassana ~naa.na falls away > the world appears as usual she said. > I think that when it goes to the very bone that 'we' cannot do > anything to have sati, but that we should 'let' it come by > conditions, there will be a lessening of the tendency to always cling > to self who does it. > As Jon said, we came into this world with a deeply held wrong view. > We are so used to cling to 'me' that we do not know any better, do > not even notice it. > You said: it - is a > perversion of the Dhamma.> > Cetana is certainly not dismissed, how could it? It arises anyway, > nobody can prevent it from arising. It is a cetasika that is > conditioned. ------------------------------------ Howard: Of course. :-) ------------------------------------ > Perhaps all these things need more explanation and misunderstandings > could be avoided. > ------- > Nina. > ====================== With metta, Howard #74792 From: han tun Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 3:58 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Response to E-card from Bangkok 3 (1) - Vipallaasas hantun1 Dear Nina, My computer is alright now. So I can now respond to some of your points. N: sakkaayadi.t thi is included in attavaadupaadana, but the latter is broader. I think it all started with the question: can one take things outside oneself for self. Han: That exactly is the problem for me: “can one take inanimate things outside oneself for self?” -------------------- N: Touch, without thinking, a table or a cup, and touch your body. See for yourself whether hardness is experienced and whether it is true that hardness is hardness, just that characteristic. No cup, no body. If you understand just that you are well on your way to understand what paramattha dhammas are. Do not think of any terms or names. It seems that a cup was already there all the time, but in fact what is touched is hardness, and what is seen is visible object. We do not realize that what we take for a cup are rupas that are impermanent, dukkha, anattaa. Seeing this will help us to understand what attavaadupaadaana is, but we need not think of any term. Han: Yes, I understand the nature of paramattha dhammas. I understand that there is no cup, no body, no Han, no Nina. I understand that a cup is made up of ruupas that are anicca, dukkha, anatta. (Sabbe dhammaa anattaa). I understand that the “five aggregates” are anicca, dukkha and anatta, and if one takes them as nicca, sukha and atta, it is the wrong view. But coming to inanimate objects, outside of oneself, I don’t think I will ever take them as “atta.” So I believe that I may have atta-ditthi with regard to the five aggregates, but I cannot have atta-ditthi with the inanimate objects because I will never take them as atta. That is the problem with me. But, Nina, I always respect your knowledge and opinion, and because of this respect I will take your advice. Respectfully, Han --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Han, > Just back after a week, I did not follow the whole > thread, but > perhaps I can add something. > No need to answer if your computer does not work. > --------- #74793 From: han tun Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 4:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Response to E-card from Bangkok 3 (1) - Vipallaasas hantun1 Dear Sarah, My computer is alright now, and so I can respond to your post. Are you interested in tennis? Suppose there are two tennis players who are quite successful in playing ‘doubles.’ Now, if they also enter ‘single’ matches, they might meet each other in one of the matches, and then they will have to play to win their double partner. Even so, Sarah, I always want to be your ‘double’ partner. I don’t want to be your ‘single’ opponent. I always want to be on your side, I always like to sit next to you at the meetings, and I always try very hard to agree with you. In this topic, I agree with you everything except one thing – that is (as I have responded to Nina) will one take inanimate objects, outside of oneself, as atta? If I have the capacity to take every inanimate objects that is anatta as atta, there will be no end to it, because sabbe dhammaa anattaa. It will be the “mother” of all wrong views. Further more, I take Anattalakkhana Sutta as the guiding sutta to understand the anatta-lakkhana. In that sutta, the Buddha talks about the five aggregates. He does not mention about inanimate objects. If the Buddha had mentioned inanimate objects as possible objects of atta-ditthi in any other sutta, I had not yet read it. Even on this point, Sarah, whether I agree with you or not, I respect your opinion, and will not argue with you anymore. Respectfully, Han, your double partner. --- sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Han, all, > I'm really appreciating your sincere reflections on > the topics raised. #74794 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 4:50 pm Subject: Vism.XVII,175 Vism.XVII,176 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga), Ch. XVII [(3) How Formations are a Condition for Consciousness] 175. Now in order to eliminate confusion about all these thirty-two kinds of resultant consciousness: One should of these formations see For which and how they are conditions In birth and life in all the three Kinds of becoming and the rest. 176. Herein, the three kinds of becoming, the four kinds of generation, the five kinds of destiny, the seven stations of consciousness, and the nine abodes of beings are what are called 'The kinds of becoming and the rest'. The meaning is that it should be recognized for what kinds of resultant consciousness these [formations] are conditions in rebirth-linking and in the course of an individual existence, and in what way they are conditions in the various kinds of becoming and so on. ************************** 175. idaani sabbesveva tesu baatti.msavipaakavi~n~naa.nesu sammohavighaatattha.m, pa.tisandhipavattiina.m, vasenete bhavaadisu. vijaanitabbaa sa"nkhaaraa, yathaa yesa~nca paccayaa.. 176. tattha tayo bhavaa, catasso yoniyo, pa~nca gatiyo, satta vi~n~naa.na.t.thitiyo, nava sattaavaasaati ete bhavaadayo naama. etesu bhavaadiisu pa.tisandhiya.m pavatte ca ete yesa.m vipaakavi~n~naa.naana.m paccayaa, yathaa ca paccayaa honti, tathaa vijaanitabbaati attho. #74795 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 4:52 pm Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge indriyabala Hi, Sarah - S: In some contexts, any guarding and any wise attention refer to the development of satipatthana, or insights into paramattha dhammas leading to enlightenment. How does this sound? T: It sounds like a distant whisper to me. Satipatthana is just one of the ten dhammas that are the theme of AN 10.61. How do you see paramattha dhammas in the vijjaavimutti development process of this sutta? FYI : these ten dhammas are as follows. 1. sappurisasa.mseva 2. saddhammasavana 3. saddha 4. yonisomanasikaara 5. satisampaja~n~na 6.indriyasa.mvara 7. tii.ni sucaritaani 8. cattaaro satipa.t.thaana 9. satta bojjha'nga 10. vijjaavimutti. (Please forgive any wrong spellings.) S: Again, I don't have the sutta you refer to at hand. Pls let me know if you have other ideas or if there is a relevant part of the sutta to quote. T: I think if I continue to quote from AN 10.61, it may sound like a broken record. Thank you for the patience -- I know that my posts are not as interesting as the recent dialogues between Scott and Howard ! S: Good to be hearing your considered reflections again, Tep. T: I am glad to hear yours too, Sarah. Tep === #74796 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 5:29 pm Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge indriyabala Hi, Scott (and Howard), - I found your dialogues with Howard very interesting. Those are the issues that keep coming up all the time here, and the same answers have been replayed again and again. How can you tell who is right about the dhammas unless you directly know them yourself (paccattam)? Scott: And, yes, I'm still trying to relate them to those in AN 10:61. I'm still going over the main portions of your last reply, thanks for the patience. T: I admire your deep thinking and am interested in your thought & experience. Well, I do not need any patience at all to wait for the right time to read your insightful replies. .............. >T: I am not sure about the "order" of them. Why order them? >They are not necessarily practiced in any order, I think. Scott: I'm trying to work out a sort of 'which comes first' schema regarding this. It seems to me that there is a sort of linearity here. The analogy of the water suggests so: small streams flowing into larger streams and so on. And the development of dhammas proceeds, I would think, from 'lower to higher' - as it were. And, true, they are not 'practised' in any order since the development occurs according to conditions but I think a certain 'level' must develop prior to the arising of the next. And it would seem that a certain lower 'strength' of dhamma must be prerequisite for a certain higher 'strength'. T: Why do you think the linearity principle applies to the 37 wings to awakening? What about nonlinearities? Ven. Thanissaro Bhikkhu elaborates about all these complex conditional relations in his e- book ("The wings to Awakening"). What do you think of his thesis? BTW I agree with you about the levels and strengths. I am glad that you mentioned the term "practice". Who practices these dhammas? If there is no one, then how is vijjavimutti directly known? Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Dear Tep, > > Thanks for the reply: > > T: "They are the 38 bodhipakkhiya dhammas..." > > Scott: Okay, thanks for the term. I'll follow it up... > #74797 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 5:32 pm Subject: Not Hard to Accept (Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Walking) scottduncan2 Dear Howard, Thanks for your kind reply: Howard: "I don't deplore it. (I'm not sure why you think so.) I rather liked Tommy, for example." Scott: Yeah, beautiful. The below is the first four song cycle Townshend did. Check this out - Nina: STAY AWAY!! Very awful music: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjkGHn8_Z2c This was a performance by The Who on The Rolling Stone's Rock and Roll Circus, circa 1968. Rumour has it that they so totally upstaged The Stones that the project was shelved for nearly thirty years! Its true, though - The Who in their prime (and all blocked up, judging by Keith Moon). As Keith Richards says, 'Dig The Who'. Howard: "I know that the official Abhidhammic take on this is that cetana is a universal, but it does not seem to me that intention arises all the time. Not every state seems to me to carry the "impulsion" that I think of as cetana. Where is there any intention/volition involved in mere seeing for example?" Scott: I only have time for this, Howard. Since all seeing is vipaaka, the relation is always to past intention/kamma. Every moment of seeing is so. This is how we see 'the world' all the time until the last citta. This is how intention is involved in mere seeing. I'll get back to the rest. Late, Howard. Sincerely, Scott. #74798 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 5:42 pm Subject: Not Hard to Accept (Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Walking) scottduncan2 Dear Howard, Not: "Late, Howard." Scott: I've killed you to soon! Later, Howard. S. #74799 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 2:34 pm Subject: Re: Not Hard to Accept (Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Walking) upasaka_howard Hi, Scott - In a message dated 7/31/07 8:33:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: > Dear Howard, > > Thanks for your kind reply: > > Howard: "I don't deplore it. (I'm not sure why you think so.) I > rather liked Tommy, for example." > > Scott: Yeah, beautiful. The below is the first four song cycle > Townshend did. Check this out - Nina: STAY AWAY!! Very awful music: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjkGHn8_Z2c > > This was a performance by The Who on The Rolling Stone's Rock and Roll > Circus, circa 1968. Rumour has it that they so totally upstaged The > Stones that the project was shelved for nearly thirty years! Its > true, though - The Who in their prime (and all blocked up, judging by > Keith Moon). As Keith Richards says, 'Dig The Who'. > > Howard: "I know that the official Abhidhammic take on this is that > cetana is a universal, but it does not seem to me that intention > arises all the time. Not every state seems to me to carry the > "impulsion" that I think of as cetana. Where is there any > intention/volition involved in mere seeing for example?" > > Scott: I only have time for this, Howard. Since all seeing is > vipaaka, the relation is always to past intention/kamma. Every moment > of seeing is so. This is how we see 'the world' all the time until > the last citta. This is how intention is involved in mere seeing. ------------------------------------------ Howard: Oh, yes - I agree with that. That's what I meant when I wrote "These may be very recently preceded by intention (as the intention to open one's eyes or to listen carefully), and, of course, these states were *conditioned* by intention possibly far in the past." ---------------------------------------- > > I'll get back to the rest. Late, Howard. ----------------------------------------- Howard: Take care, Scott. :-) --------------------------------------- > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > > ==================== With metta, Howard