#74800 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 2:38 pm Subject: Re: Not Hard to Accept (Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Walking) upasaka_howard Hi, Scott - In a message dated 7/31/07 9:04:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: > Dear Howard, > > Not: "Late, Howard." > > Scott: I've killed you to soon! > Later, Howard. --------------------------------------- Howard: LOL! Are you, perhaps, a Freudian analyst and personally "into" Freudian slips? ;-)) ---------------------------------------- > > S. > ==================== With metta, Howard #74801 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 7:28 pm Subject: Vism.XVII,175 Vism.XVII,176 nichiconn Path of Purity, p.667: Now in order to remove confusion as regards all these thirty-two classes of resultant consciousness, By virtue of procedure and rebirth In life and so on, these activities Are to be known as causes such as those. Herein, the three existences, four places of birth, five courses, seven stations of consciousness, nine sentient abodes are called "becomings (bhaava) and so on." The meaning is, that these activities should be known as causes of those classes of resultant consciousness at rebirth and in (vital) procedure and so on. #74802 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 8:15 pm Subject: Not Hard to Accept (Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Walking) scottduncan2 Dear Howard, Yeah, the parapraxis was hilarious: Howard: LOL! Are you, perhaps, a Freudian analyst and personally "into" Freudian slips? ;-))" Scott: Well yes, I'm post-Freudian for sure and that was my interpretation of the slip: a momentary death-wish. This shows me, as I've known in a mundane way for years, how little we actually know of the subtle dhammas that arise and to which we cling. Freudian or not, parapraxes happen all the time. I recall Nina's misreading of a mistake I made, and corrected, in spelling, where she unconsciously filled in the correct spelling and missed the error. I think, by the way, that it is comparing apples and oranges to discuss classical psychoanalytic theory in the light of the Dhamma. The 'Freudian' Unconscious is not comparable to Abhidhamma psychology - in this case the rapidity of the arising and falling away of dhammas and the effect on mundane 'awareness'. As I was relating with you in what I thought was a friendly manner, this was only superficially so, as you can see. I didn't know it at the time. The slip shows that I was actually very angry with you at that moment - sorry about that - and is a great lesson to me in both humility and the impersonal and not-self nature of feelings. I admit it. I'm glad to know it. It was 'self' when I thought I was being friendly. It was not-self when the dhamma that was actually arising became known via the parapraxis. At such moments I can either pretend it was just a mistake of the keyboard or I can accept the presence of this unpleasant aspect of anger. It was there. Then, I can inventory things and remind myself that, at least today, there is still dosa arising. Sincerely, Scott. #74803 From: han tun Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:55 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Response to E-card from Bangkok 3 (5), to Han. hantun1 Dear Nina, N: I would like you to take courage. Understanding can develop little by little and we should be grateful for the little understanding we have. There are different levels of 'Don't do evil, do good, purify the mind! 'Gradually we can learn that whatever we think or do is dhamma, a reality that is non-self, arisen because of conditions. Also using rosary beads. Do not worry about that. Pa~n~naa can grow and it can begin to understand different cittas. So many different cittas arise and fall away when you touch those beads. Nobody else can know what types of cittas arise, only pa~n~naa can. Han: I thank you very much for your kind advice. But to be honest, I have passed the stage of caring. It is not frustration. But I do not care anything anymore. I will do what I can, to the best of my ability, the activities that I believe is wholesome. I do not care what results it will bring. Whatever will be, will be! I am 81 and my days are numbered. I want to do what I want to do during these last few moments. And what I want to do is what I am now doing! But I thank you very much, because I know that you give me the adive with all your sincerity. With metta and deepest respect, Han --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Han, > You are so sincere, never pretending to know what > you do not know > yet. You are always so inspiring, I am happy to read > your posts. But > let us wait for your computer, also that is > conditioned. > ------- #74804 From: "colette" Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:27 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Yogacara only, to cross Ts and dot Is ksheri3 Hi Larry, Uncertain of what? Are you uncertain about my terminology or your terminolgy or terminology altogether? toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@... wrote: > > Hi Colette, > > C: "That's all it is, fundamentally nothing greater than a simple > disagreement of terminology." > > L: Actually, the more I think about it, the more uncertain I am. I will > be interested to see what you come up with in your researches. > > Larry > #74805 From: "colette" Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:42 pm Subject: Re: Vism.XVII,175 Vism.XVII,176 ksheri3 Well, if it isn't my great opponent L. G. Sage causing a rukus. ;) I think I'll have to get Sherman to reset the Way-Back Machine, no, I'm getting my frames of reference mixed up I think, maybe I'll be trying to get Nell off of the Rail Road tracks, Who knows at this hour it could be a Johnny Quest show or maybe Cltuch Cargo? I wanted to say that the 3 Gems are the only causes: the Buddha, the Sangha, and the Dharma. ;), obviously I'm into something and so I play the field here. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "L G SAGE" wrote: > > Path of Purity, p.667: > > Now in order to remove confusion as regards all these thirty-two classes of resultant consciousness, > By virtue of procedure and rebirth > In life and so on, these activities > Are to be known as causes such as those. > > Herein, the three existences, four places of birth, five courses, seven stations of consciousness, nine sentient abodes are called "becomings (bhaava) and so on." The meaning is, that these activities should be known as causes of those classes of resultant consciousness at rebirth and in (vital) procedure and so on. #74806 From: "colette" Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Church Lady is among us ksheri3 Hi Howard, why would you attempt a terminology concerning a buddhist path as being despicable? Lets look at CAUSE & CONDITIONS: isn't it possible that these terminologies came from a Theravadan that was myopic conerning their chosen path and so to dissuede any and all alternative views that may disrupt their path? toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Colette - > > Thank you for the following friendly post - it is much appreciated. > BTW, the term 'hinayana' means "lowly way". Sometimes it even carries > the sense of "despicable". These days very many Mahayanists realize that it is > a poor term to use, and they may substitute 'Shravakayana' to refer to > original Buddhism (all the early schools) or just Theravada if that is what is > explicitly intended. <...> #74807 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 31, 2007 11:46 pm Subject: Re: cetanaa, was: Not Hard to Accept nilovg Dear Scott and Howard, I quote from my cetasikas, Ch 4: The Atthasalini (I, Part , Chapter I, 111) states about cetana that its characteristic is coordinating the associated dhammas (citta and the other cetasikas) on the object and that its function is willing. We read: ... There is no such thing as volition in the four planes of existence without the characteristic of coordinating: all volition has it. But the function of 'willing' is only in moral (kusala) and immoral (akusala) states... It has directing as manifestation. It arises directing associated states, like the chief disciple, the chief carpenter. etc. who fulfil their own and others' duties.... The cetana which accompanies kusala citta and akusala citta has, in addition to coordinating, another task to perform: 'willing' or 'activity of kamma' (1 Ayuhana which meana 'striving' or pursuing, is translated in the English text of the Atthasalini as conation, and in the english text of the Visuddhimagga as accumulation.). According to the Atthasalini, as to activity in moral and immoral acts, cetana is exceedingly energetic whereas the accompanying cetasikas play only a restricted part. Cetana which accompanies kusala citta and akusala citta coordinates the work of the other cetasikas it arises together with and it 'wills' kusala or akusala, thus, it makes a "double effort". The Atthasalini compares the double task of cetana to the task of a landowner who directs the work of his labourers, looks after them and also takes himself an equal share of the work. He doubles his strength and doubles his effort. Even so volition doubles its strength and its effort in moral and immoral acts. .. The cetana which accompanies vipakacitta and kiriyacitta merely coordinates the tasks of the other dhammas it accompanies, it does not 'will' kusala or akusala and it does not motivate wholesome or unwholesome deeds. For example, seeing-consciousness, which is vipakacitta, the result of kamma, is accompanied by cetana and this cetana is also vipaka. The cetana which accompanies seeing- consciousness directs the tasks which the accompanying dhammas have to fulfil with regard to visible object. It directs, for example, phassa which contacts visible object, vedana which feels and sanna which marks and remembers visible object. Cetana which accompanies kusala citta or akusala citta has a double task, it is 'exceedingly energetic'. Apart from coordinating the other dhammas, it 'wills' kusala or akusala and when it has the intensity to motivate a deed through body, speech or mind, it is capable of producing the result of that deed later on. When we speak about kusala kamma or akusala kamma we usually think of course of action (kamma pathas) which can be performed through body, speech or mind. However, we should remember that when we perform wholesome or unwholesome deeds it is actually the wholesome or unwholesome volition or intention which motivates the deed and this is the activity of kamma which is accumulated and can produce its appropriate result later on. Thus, akusala kamma and kusala kamma are actually akusala cetana and kusala cetana. Nina. Op 1-aug-2007, om 2:32 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: > Howard: "I know that the official Abhidhammic take on this is that > cetana is a universal, but it does not seem to me that intention > arises all the time. Not every state seems to me to carry the > "impulsion" that I think of as cetana. #74808 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Aug 1, 2007 12:01 am Subject: Re: Not Hard to Accept (Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Walking) nilovg Hi Howard, Op 31-jul-2007, om 21:26 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > I find myself smiling at this (out of empathy), but, of course, I'm > sorry for Lodewijk's upset. ------- N: The upset does not last and it is accumulation. We do not give much importance to it. Thanks for your empathy. -------- As to: 'we cannot do anything' you may still have misgivings. I understand. We have to place this into context. As you agree, many times craving and craving with an idea of self pops up. Especially with regard to the practice. People want to practise, they want some result, they want more awareness. Now, it is not so that the right conditions cannot be cultivated. But we do need reminders like: nobody can do anything. See it as a reminder so badly needed. It is good to have a feeling of: let it all come because of conditioned. Unawareness is dhamma, awareness is dhamma. No control, but we can take this in the right sense. As to the right conditions to be cultivated, here we differ, I know. You are conditioned to sit and meditate. Accumulated inclinations and it is useful to know them as such. -------- H: It's really important to be aware of sense of self. Sometimes it can be missed. And sometimes, rarely, it isn't present. But it is always present during moments of craving and of aversion. ------- N: Also when seeing or hearing. But what do we know? So very little. Visible object is rupa, and through satipatthana it can be directly understood as a dhamma that is known through the eyesense. Without thinking. How? Only when the first stage of insight has been reached. Only then different namas such as aversion or seeing can be directly known. It seems easy to understand that nama is different from rupa, but it is a different matter to be aware of only one characteristic at a time. Nina. #74809 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Aug 1, 2007 12:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Response to E-card from Bangkok 3 (1) - Vipallaasas sarahprocter... Dear Han & all tennis fans;), --- han tun wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > My computer is alright now, and so I can respond to > your post. ... S:I'm glad your computer is fixed at last. ... > > Are you interested in tennis? Suppose there are two > tennis players who are quite successful in playing > ‘doubles.’ Now, if they also enter ‘single’ matches, > they might meet each other in one of the matches, and > then they will have to play to win their double > partner. Even so, Sarah, I always want to be your > ‘double’ partner. I don’t want to be your ‘single’ > opponent. I always want to be on your side, I always > like to sit next to you at the meetings, and I always > try very hard to agree with you. .... S: Yes, I also prefer to play doubles together:-)) Perhaps with regard to these other points, we can just consider them as working on our doubles techniques together, rather than playing as singles opponents, which neither of us have an interest in! Let's consider it as further team-work together here... .... > > In this topic, I agree with you everything except one > thing – that is (as I have responded to Nina) will one > take inanimate objects, outside of oneself, as atta? > If I have the capacity to take every inanimate objects > that is anatta as atta, there will be no end to it, > because sabbe dhammaa anattaa. It will be the “mother” > of all wrong views. ..... S: I think that's just what it is: the 'mother' of all wrong views and far more pervasive than we realise. Nicely put. As more understanding develops, more and more atta-view is seen popping up here and there. ... > > Further more, I take Anattalakkhana Sutta as the > guiding sutta to understand the anatta-lakkhana. In > that sutta, the Buddha talks about the five > aggregates. He does not mention about inanimate > objects. If the Buddha had mentioned inanimate objects > as possible objects of atta-ditthi in any other sutta, > I had not yet read it. .... S: In this sutta, he does remind us: "Thus, monks, any body [ruupa] whatsoever that is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: every body is to be seen as it actually is with right discernment as: 'This is not mine. This is not my self. This is not what I am.' [neta"n mama, nesohamasmi. Na me so attaa]" And so on for all the khandhas. What we take for being inanimate objects are various rupas experienced through the senses, such as visible objects, sounds, tactile objects and so on, surely? So not only the internal rupas of the body, but also the external rupas experienced may be taken as atta, I believe. ... > Even on this point, Sarah, whether I agree with you or > not, I respect your opinion, and will not argue with > you anymore. > > Respectfully, > Han, your double partner. .... S: It's always helpful to consider the viewpoint and approach of a doubles partner, Han. No arguments, but we all can keep reflecting on the Dhamma together. Some may find it frustrating or depressing to hear about so much atta view. I find it inspiring and helpful to appreciate that what we cling to are merely dhammas, merely khandhas. Gradually some of those very deep and tenacious roots of views can be loosened, if not completely dug out for now. That's just my idea of play, but you're the senior partner, so I'll respect your decision to leave this point aside for now:-). Metta, Sarah ========= #74810 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Aug 1, 2007 12:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Response to E-card from Bangkok 3 (5), to Han. nilovg Dear Han, thank you for your kind mail. I understand what you mean. Yes, also our days are numbered. Nina. Op 1-aug-2007, om 6:55 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > I am 81 and my days are numbered. I want to do what I > want to do during these last few moments. And what I > want to do is what I am now doing! #74811 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Aug 1, 2007 12:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Response to E-card from Bangkok 3 (1) - Vipallaasas nilovg Dear Han (and Sarah), it has been explained in the commentaries that rupakkhandha comprises all rupas, not just rupas of the body. Perhaps this can help? Sarah, before in the bus in India we recited the Anattalakkhana Sutta, what are your plans? But I have to get hold of a Pali text. Nina Op 1-aug-2007, om 1:02 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > I take Anattalakkhana Sutta as the > guiding sutta to understand the anatta-lakkhana. In > that sutta, the Buddha talks about the five > aggregates. He does not mention about inanimate > objects. #74812 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Aug 1, 2007 12:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What is the wrong view? (References from the MN anthology) sarahprocter... Hi Tep (Jon, Nina, Scott), --- Tep Sastri wrote: > On the contrary, we can simply develop confidence and trust (saddha) > in the Buddha -- i.e. to establish faith -- that the "next world" > exists because the Buddha said so. That faith is not conditional on a > direct realization of the other world and any worldling who has > saddha in the Buddha can do it. Don't you think so? ... S: Excuse me butting in here....I think the teachings explain that with a deeper understanding of namas and rupas and the conditioned nature of these, we appreciate that 'Death' as we know it is only a conventional term. In fact the processes of cittas, the arising and falling away of namas and rupas continue on and on, like now (unless arahatship is attained, of course). I think this understanding is therefore dependent on a direct realization, that of the second stage of insight. There's a passage in the Vism which is very clear on this. I think Nina quoted it fairly recently, but I don't have the Vism or ref. to hand. Maybe she, Scott or someone could requote it. Apologies if I've misunderstood the context of your discussion. Metta, Sarah ========== #74813 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Aug 1, 2007 12:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Response to E-card from Bangkok 3 (1) - Vipallaasas nilovg Dear Han, Op 1-aug-2007, om 0:58 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > I understand that the “five aggregates” are > anicca, dukkha and anatta, and if one takes them as > nicca, sukha and atta, it is the wrong view. But > coming to inanimate objects, outside of oneself, I > don’t think I will ever take them as “atta.” So I > believe that I may have atta-ditthi with regard to the > five aggregates, but I cannot have atta-ditthi with > the inanimate objects --------- N: It is difficult, as I wrote to Howard, to know when we take dhammas for self so long as the first stage of insight has not been reached. We do not have to think of inanimate objects. When hardness appears through the bodysense we usually let it pass and think of a cup or table. Sometimes the characteristic of hardness can be object of sati and pa~n~naa and then there is only hardness, no cup, no table, nothing else in the world. In that way we can learn the difference between moments of awareness and moments of forgetfulness. No need to try to find out whether this is hardness of the body or hardness of a cup. How could we? When we learn about attavaadupaadaana it is a reminder that wrong view comprises many dhammas. It can be an exhortation to listen more, study more, investigate more so that understanding can grow. It grows because of its own conditions. Nina. #74814 From: Dieter Möller Date: Wed Aug 1, 2007 12:31 am Subject: question from a hermit moellerdieter Dear Sarah ( Nina and Sukin), thank you for your message. To re-type the question was indeed a more bit more troublesome than I thought: my printer didn't accept the format .. so I used the typewriter between ;-) I will wait for my letter to the Venerable until Sukin gets a feedback -likely in confirmation of Nina's comment. Please let me know ...and thanks for your care. with Metta Dieter #74815 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Aug 1, 2007 12:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: satipatthana as island of refuge -- Sarah's Request -- sarahprocter... Hi Tep, Scott & all, Thank you and Scott for your assistance in quoting and cleaning up the following comments by Sayadaw U Nyanuttara which I thought were relevant to our discussion. I'd like to highlight one passage here: --- Tep Sastri wrote: > http://www.mahasi.org.mm/discourse/E24/E24ch04.htm <..> > Considering these Pali and Commentarial passages, it > should be understood that the dhammas that take place simultaneously > are often stated according to common usage as if they take place one > after the other. Therefore, in the Maha Satipatthana passage, > contemplation of the four foundations of mindfullness and overcoming > of hindrances are to be understood as taking place at the same time. > It means that hindrances are overcome while contemplating the four > foundations of mindfullness. This interpretation is confirmed by the > MahaSatipatthana Sutta Commentary which states: "By overcoming > covetousness and grief is meant the fruit of contemplation." (Note > 95) It means that Satipatthana contemplation brings about the > riddance of covetousness and grief. .... S: This is why I also think that ideas of being aware of a), then b), then c), then d) are also quite misguided. If there's an idea of focussing on the rupas of the body first (as I think someone quoted even B.Bodhi as referring to), for example, it's also a misunderstanding of the 'common usage' and of satipatthana. Likewise, as explained here, (and as we all agree), the development of satipatthana leads to the overcoming of covetousness and grief. Of course, the hindrances themselves must also be known for what they are through the development of satipatthana too. For example, Scott and Jon were recently highlighting the importance of directly understanding wrong view when it arises as pointed out in a comy note to MN 117. In the Satipatthana Sutta, the hindrances are given as objects of sati like all other dhammas. Thanks again for your assistance. Nice to all agree on the main point. Let me know if there's anything else here that is not so acceptable:). Metta, Sarah ========== #74816 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Aug 1, 2007 12:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Response to E-card from Bangkok 3 (3) sarahprocter... Dear Han, I forgot to thank you for this detailed and helpful summary of the discussion too on this sutta: --- han tun wrote: > Han: > This has reference to AN 5.57 > Abhi.nha-paccavekkhi-tabbatthaana Sutta. <..> > Quote: [“Now, O monks, the noble disciple contemplates > thus: ‘I am not the only one who is sure to become > old, to fall ill and to die. But wherever beings come > and go, pass away and re-arise, they all are subject > to old age, illness and death.’ In one who often > contemplates these facts, the path arises (tassa tam > tthaanam abhi.nham paccavekkhato maggo sa~njaayati). > He now regularly pursues, develops and cultivates that > path, and while he is doing so the fetters are > abandoned and the underlying tendencies eliminated.”] > End Quote. > (translation by Bhikkhu Bodhi, and the Pali words > inserted by me taken from the Pali text of the sutta) > -------------------- > > - I was wondering how such simple contemplations could > result in the arising of the path (maggo sa~njaayati). > It seems so easy. ... S: This is the point. If it were so simple, why are we not all enlightened? > - Ajahn Sujin asked me who is ‘I’ and who are ‘they’? > Due to my hearing defect, I could not hear properly > the rest of what Ajahn Sujin said. But, Sarah kindly > whispered to me that Ajahn Sujin meant to say that in > absolute reality there is no ‘I’ and there are no > ‘they’, or in other words there is no self or atta. > There are only five aggregates that are subject to old > age, illness and death, and I must understand the > arising and falling away of these five aggregates. <..> ... S: So as you indicate, the simple words carry a lot of depth - all the depth of the Buddha's teachings about anatta, about the 5 khandhas. If it were not for the arising and falling away of the khandhas, and the thinking about them, there'd be no ideas of atta at all. By understanding more and more about the impermanence and worthlessness of these khandhas, we come closer to understanding dukkha and the other Noble Truths. You kindly summarised some other coments of mine to this effect. Actually, it's your own wise reflections and good questions that helped me to appreciate the seemingly simple lines in a deeper manner too. Again, thank you for your partnership. I found it most helpful. Metta, Sarah =========== #74817 From: han tun Date: Wed Aug 1, 2007 2:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Response to E-card from Bangkok 3 (1) - Vipallaasas hantun1 Dear Sarah, Just a short response. S: In this sutta, he does remind us: "Thus, monks, any body [ruupa] whatsoever that is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: every body is to be seen as it actually is with right discernment as: 'This is not mine. This is not my self. This is not what I am.' [neta"n mama, nesohamasmi. Na me so attaa]" And so on for all the khandhas. What we take for being inanimate objects are various rupas experienced through the senses, such as visible objects, sounds, tactile objects and so on, surely? So not only the internal rupas of the body, but also the external rupas experienced may be taken as atta, I believe. Han: That’s a good point. I will think about it. But for the time being, I think we will leave this point aside, for now:-). Respectfully, Han --- sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Han & all tennis fans;), > > --- han tun wrote: > > > Dear Sarah, > > > > My computer is alright now, and so I can respond > to > > your post. > ... > S:I'm glad your computer is fixed at last. > ... > > #74818 From: han tun Date: Wed Aug 1, 2007 2:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Response to E-card from Bangkok 3 (1) - Vipallaasas hantun1 Dear Nina (Sarah), Sarah has just given me a very good point to ponder. I will think about it. Thank you very much for the good advice from both of you. Respectfully, Han --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Han (and Sarah), > it has been explained in the commentaries that > rupakkhandha comprises > all rupas, not just rupas of the body. Perhaps this > can help? > Sarah, before in the bus in India we recited the > Anattalakkhana > Sutta, what are your plans? But I have to get hold > of a Pali text. > Nina #74819 From: han tun Date: Wed Aug 1, 2007 2:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Response to E-card from Bangkok 3 (1) - Vipallaasas hantun1 Dear Nina, N: It is difficult, as I wrote to Howard, to know when we take dhammas for self so long as the first stage of insight has not been reached. We do not have to think of inanimate objects. When hardness appears through the bodysense we usually let it pass and think of a cup or table. Sometimes the characteristic of hardness can be object of sati and pa~n~naa and then there is only hardness, no cup, no table, nothing else in the world. In that way we can learn the difference between moments of awareness and moments of forgetfulness. No need to try to find out whether this is hardness of the body or hardness of a cup. How could we? When we learn about attavaadupaadaana it is a reminder that wrong view comprises many dhammas. It can be an exhortation to listen more, study more, investigate more so that understanding can grow. It grows because of its own conditions. Han: You have a very good point, just like what Sarah had written to me a few moments ago. I will think about it. Thank you very much. Respectfully, Han --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Han, > N: It is difficult, as I wrote to Howard, to know > when we take > dhammas for self so long as the first stage of > insight has not been > reached. #74820 From: han tun Date: Wed Aug 1, 2007 2:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Response to E-card from Bangkok 3 (3) hantun1 Dear Sarah, I am happy if you are happy with my summaries. I also appreciate your partnership, and I will always be your dhamma partner. Respectfully, Han --- sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Han, > > I forgot to thank you for this detailed and helpful > summary of the > discussion too on this sutta: > #74821 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Wed Aug 1, 2007 3:10 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (64) nichiconn Dear Friends, 11. Dvaadasakanipaato 1. Uppalava.n.naatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa part 4 txt: Saa pitari aagacchante pa.tipatha.m gantvaa tassa hatthato kaajakama.n.dalu.m aggahesi, aagantvaa nisinnassa cassa attano kara.navatta.m dassesi. Tadaa so vanacarako manussabhaava.m ~natvaa taapasa.m abhivaadetvaa nisiidi. Taapaso ta.m vanacaraka.m vanamuulaphalehi ca paaniiyena ca nimantetvaa, "bho purisa, imasmi.myeva thaane vasissasi, udaahu gamissasii"ti pucchi. Pruitt: When her father came back, she went to meet him and took the pole and water pot from his hand. After he had returned and was seated, she showed him what she had prepared herself. Then that woodsman knew she was human, and after paying respects to the ascetic, he sat down. The ascetic invited the woodsman [to have] fruit and roots from the forest and water to drink. And he asked him, "Friend, will you live right here, or will you go away?" "Gamissaami, bhante, idha ki.m karissaamii"ti? "Ida.m tayaa di.t.thakaara.na.m etto gantvaa akathetu.m sakkhissasii"ti? "Sace, ayyo, na icchati, ki.mkaara.naa kathessaamii"ti taapasa.m vanditvaa puna aagamanakaale maggasa~njaananattha.m saakhaasa~n~na~nca rukkhasa~n~na~nca karonto pakkaami. "I will go away, venerable sir," he said. "What could I accomplish here?" "Then when you go away from here," [the ascetic asked,] "will you be able to refrain from speaking about what you have seen here?" "If the venerable one does not wish that, why would I speak about it?" the woodsman replied.] Then he paid homage to the ascetic, and he went away, making marks on branches and trees in order to recognize the path when he came again. So baaraa.nasi.m gantvaa raajaana.m addasa. Raajaa "kasmaa aagatosii"ti pucchi. "Aha.m, deva, tumhaaka.m vanacarako pabbatapaade acchariya.m itthiratana.m disvaa aagatomhii"ti sabba.m pavatti.m kathesi. So tassa vacana.m sutvaa vegena pabbatapaada.m gantvaa aviduure .thaane khandhaavaara.m nivaasetvaa vanacarakena ceva a~n~nehi ca purisehi saddhi.m taapasassa bhattakicca.m katvaa nisinnavelaaya tattha gantvaa abhivaadetvaa pa.tisanthaara.m katvaa ekamanta.m nisiidi. He went to Baaraa.nasii and saw the king. Theking asked him, "Why have you come?" "I am one of your woodsmen, O king, and I have just come form seing a marvellous jewel of a woman at the foot of a mountain." And he told the whole story. Having heard what he said, [the king] quickly went to the foot of the mountain and stayed in a camp not far away [from the ascetic's hut] together with the woodsman and some other men. When the ascetic has eaten his meal and while he was sitting, they went there, paid respects, exchanged friendly greetings, and sat down on one side. ===tbc, connie. #74822 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Aug 1, 2007 4:24 am Subject: Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness jonoabb Hi Swee Boon --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > > Hi Jon, >... > I disagree. If you had carefully read this passage below, > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/soma/wayof.html#breathing > > The mind of the meditator which for a long time (before he became a > recluse) had dwelt on visual and other objects, does not like to > enter the road of meditation and just like a wild young bull yoked > to a cart, runs off the road. ... > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > it says that the meditator does not like to enter the road of > meditation. This suggests that the meditator is a rookie and not a > meditation guru. I read this as explaining why the person being spoken of by the Buddha in the section on anapanasati must be one who has "gone into the forest or to an empty place" (i.e., become a recluse) and is not, say, living in a monastery or otherwise living among other people. The passage you have quoted describes the difference between the two, and the difficulty of properly making the change from one to the other. Your suggested interpretation ("the meditator is a rookie") would mean that the Satipatthana Sutta contains an instruction on anapanasati from the begining up to the highest jhana and enlightenment, all in the space of a few paragraphs. I don't think that is what is said or meant. Rather, the sutta passage describes in brief how a monk who has already become a recluse and is adept in both anapanasati and awareness may further develop insight and attain enlightenment with jhana as basis. > That's why he has to be "gone into the forest or to > an empty place" because that helps a lot to promote the cultivation > of mindfulness for a rookie. A quiet place is an appropriate abode for the person developing the higher levels of mindfulness of breathing (this 'mindfulness' is a kind of samatha, not vipassana). > > > Or are you reading too much into a four-letter word? > > > > Not sure what four-letter word you are referring to here. Would > > you mind elaborating, please. Thanks. > > I was referring to the word CASE, where Nina contrasted between a > "case where" situation and a "do this" situation. > > For your information, Thanissaro's translation of DN 22 starts off > with "there is the case where a monk" for each of the four frames of > reference. Thanks for this observation. This does not surprise me. I see the whole of the sutta as describing the person in whom mindfulness is highly developed, rather than being a manual of instruction for those setting out on the long journey (see some examples from the sutta at the end of this post). Do you see a difference between a "case where" description and a "do this" instruction? Jon "And further, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu, in going forwards (and) in going backwards, is a person practicing clear comprehension; in looking straight on (and) in looking away from the front, is a person practicing clear comprehension; in bending and in stretching, is a person practicing clear comprehension; in wearing the shoulder-cloak, the (other two) robes (and) the bowl, is a person practicing clear comprehension; in regard to what is eaten, drunk, chewed and savored, is a person practicing clear comprehension; in defecating and in urinating, is a person practicing clear comprehension; in walking, in standing (in a place), in sitting (in some position), in sleeping, in waking, in speaking and in keeping silence, is a person practicing clear comprehension. ... "Here, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu when experiencing a pleasant feeling, understands: 'I experience a pleasant feeling'; when experiencing a painful feeling, he understands: 'I experience a painful feeling'; when experiencing a neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling, he understands: 'I experience a neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling'; ... "Here, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu understands the consciousness with lust, as with lust; the consciousness without lust, as without lust; the consciousness with hate, as with hate; the consciousness without hate, as without hate; the consciousness with ignorance, as with ignorance; the consciousness without ignorance, as without ignorance; ... "Here, O bhikkhus, when sensuality is present, a bhikkhu knows with understanding: 'I have sensuality,' or when sensuality is not present, he knows with understanding: 'I have no sensuality.' ... When anger is present, he knows with understanding: 'I have anger,' or when anger is not present, he knows with understanding: 'I have no anger.' ... #74823 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Aug 1, 2007 1:24 am Subject: Re: Not Hard to Accept (Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Walking) upasaka_howard Hi, Scott - In a message dated 7/31/07 11:16:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: > Dear Howard, > > Yeah, the parapraxis was hilarious: > > Howard: LOL! Are you, perhaps, a Freudian analyst and personally > "into" Freudian slips? ;-))" > > Scott: Well yes, I'm post-Freudian for sure and that was my > interpretation of the slip: a momentary death-wish. This shows me, as > I've known in a mundane way for years, how little we actually know of > the subtle dhammas that arise and to which we cling. Freudian or not, > parapraxes happen all the time. --------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, I'm aware of that - I observe it in myself and others frequently. :-) -------------------------------------- > > I recall Nina's misreading of a mistake I made, and corrected, in > spelling, where she unconsciously filled in the correct spelling and > missed the error. I think, by the way, that it is comparing apples > and oranges to discuss classical psychoanalytic theory in the light of > the Dhamma. The 'Freudian' Unconscious is not comparable to > Abhidhamma psychology - in this case the rapidity of the arising and > falling away of dhammas and the effect on mundane 'awareness'. > > As I was relating with you in what I thought was a friendly manner, > this was only superficially so, as you can see. I didn't know it at > the time. The slip shows that I was actually very angry with you at > that moment - sorry about that - and is a great lesson to me in both > humility and the impersonal and not-self nature of feelings. I admit > it. I'm glad to know it. -------------------------------------------- Howard: Also attitudes, emotions, and intentions (here I mean aims) are often mixed, from moment to moment, that is (flipping back & forth quickly). ------------------------------------------- > > It was 'self' when I thought I was being friendly. It was not-self > when the dhamma that was actually arising became known via the > parapraxis. At such moments I can either pretend it was just a > mistake of the keyboard or I can accept the presence of this > unpleasant aspect of anger. It was there. Then, I can inventory > things and remind myself that, at least today, there is still dosa > arising. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: There is little of what arises in our mind that can be truly controlled. But there can be increasingly ability to *influence* what will arise (and subside) the greater the mindfulness present. (That's what right effort is about.) As you say, often we don't even notice, but with practice it can be increasingly possible to detect the nature of states that would be undetectable without that practice. I tend to be highly introspective, so I often notice what is really going on. Unfortunately, it is a distressing sight! ;-) Part of practice, as I see it, is to become willing to face distressing sights and disappointment at our lowly state. The saving grace is the knowledge that ignorance is *not* bliss - it is just ignorance. We do not become lowly by seeing our lowliness - just the opposite, in fact. ------------------------------------------------- > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > > ========================= With metta, Howard #74824 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Aug 1, 2007 1:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Church Lady is among us upasaka_howard Hi, Colette - In a message dated 8/1/07 2:23:13 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ksheri3@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > why would you attempt a terminology concerning a buddhist path as > being despicable? > ---------------------------------------- Howard: I don't understand what you are talking about, Colette. What do you men by my attempting a terminology. Isaid that the term 'hinayana' carries the sense of lowly and despicable. That is so. That is why it is a poor term to be used. --------------------------------------- Lets look at CAUSE &CONDITIONS: isn't it possible > > that these terminologies came from a Theravadan that was myopic > conerning their chosen path and so to dissuede any and all > alternative views that may disrupt their path? ------------------------------------------- Howard: Hardly. ------------------------------------------ > > toodles, > colette =========================== With metta, Howard > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > > >Hi, Colette - > > > > Thank you for the following friendly post - it is much > appreciated. > > BTW, the term 'hinayana' means "lowly way". Sometimes it > even carries > >the sense of "despicable". These days very many Mahayanists realize > that it is > >a poor term to use, and they may substitute 'Shravakayana' to refer > to > >original Buddhism (all the early schools) or just Theravada if that > is what is > >explicitly intended. > <...> > #74825 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Aug 1, 2007 1:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: cetanaa, was: Not Hard to Accept upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Scott) - In a message dated 8/1/07 2:46:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > The cetana which accompanies vipakacitta and kiriyacitta merely > coordinates the tasks of the other dhammas it accompanies, it does > not 'will' kusala or akusala and it does not motivate wholesome or > unwholesome deeds. ======================== I understand what you are saying, and it makes possible cetana being a universal. But, as the "cetana of resultant states" is quite different from that of kammic states, it is misleading that the term 'cetana' is used in both cases. It would be helpful if there were a more general term subsuming both (in the way that 'chanda' subsumes both tanha and selfless "wishing"). The Buddha identified kamma with intention, but that intention was not the "cetana" of vipaka cittas, and so I'm not enthusiastic of the terminlogical usage. With metta, Howard #74826 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Aug 1, 2007 7:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: cetanaa, was: Not Hard to Accept nilovg Hi Howard, It cannot be helped. We have to see the context each time, which is not a bad thing :-)) Nina. Op 1-aug-2007, om 14:35 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > The > Buddha identified kamma with intention, but that intention was not > the "cetana" of > vipaka cittas, and so I'm not enthusiastic of the terminlogical usage. #74827 From: han tun Date: Wed Aug 1, 2007 7:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Response to E-card from Bangkok 3 (4) hantun1 Dear Sarah, Thank you very much for your further explanation on Ajahn Sujin’s way of teaching. S: I was interested to listen to the discussion. As soon as you gave a brief description of your habit (just as you did here), A.Sujin really 'pounced', asking the questions above and more. Why does she do this instead of just giving some gentle, encouraging comments like the ones below, you might ask. The reason is that whenever it seems that someone is following a particular practice in order 'to enhance concentration' , in order to have particular kinds of wise reflection arise and so on, she sees it as indicative of a wrong path which is likely to 'accumulate' and prevent the right path from arising. In other words, instead of just beng aware and developing understanding of what has been conditioned already, so often we are concerned to follow some path which we think will bring a particular result, such as more calmness, concentration or wisdom, but which in fact may just bring more attachment. Han: While thanking Ajahn Sujin for her kind concern, if what I am doing with the prayer beads is an indicative of a wrong path which is likely to 'accumulate' and prevent the right path from arising, I would like to request her not to worry. In Burmese history, during Pagan Dynasty, a royal prince had fallen into enemy hands, and the future King Kyansitha entered the enemy camp at night (like commando attack in modern times) and tried to rescue the prince. But the prince had the ‘wrong view’ thinking the enemy were his friends and Kyansitha was going to kill him. So he shouted and woke up the enemy soldiers. Kyansitha was angry and left the prince behind, telling him to die there. The prince was later killed by the enemies. So also I would like to request Ajahn Sujin to leave me behind at the wrong path to die thousand times or more in the samsara. S: I think at the time you partially agreed ….. Han: I must have appeared to be partially or totally agreed on all topics there, because I did not want to enter into debates which I am not good at. Anyway, I thank you and Jon for all you have done with a sincere wish to help me with my understanding. Respectfully, Han --- sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Han & all, > > --- han tun wrote: > > Sarah: > > - Prayer beads. By tradition? In the Buddha's > time? > > What about understanding? For protection? For > results? > > Akusala? > > --------------------- #74828 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Aug 1, 2007 7:50 am Subject: Keang Kachan again, no 2. nilovg Dear friends, Kh S: Sati can arise any time when there are the right conditions for it. It can arise after the experience of any object through any doorway. Body-consciousness arises and falls away as usual, but sati can follow and experience the object that is experienced by body- consciousness very naturally. Understanding can know that that is sati. One can learn the difference between the moment with sati and the moments without sati. Doubt about sati will arise time and again after the experience of objects through each doorway. --------- N: addition: we can know the difference between such moments if we do not have an idea of self (surreptiously) who wants to make sati arise. We first have to clearly understand that ‘we’ cannot create sati. It arises unexpectedly. -------- Lodewijk: We also have to develop the perfections. ------- Kh S: The perfections develop now. While we are listening to the dhamma there are patience, energy, pa~n~naa, siila. ------- N: We cannot make the perfections arise. That is why Kh Sujin said before that there should not be an idea that ‘I’ have to develop the perfections. She leads us to the present moment so that we have more understanding. At this moment the perfections can develop and they develop together. -------- Kh S: Develop understanding, then there is sati already. We are used to studying by words, but not to studying the characteristic which appears. We know in theory about nama and rupa, but that is not awareness of them. When awareness arises it is the moment of real study. We talk about seeing, but there is seeing at this moment. It is different from visible object. It sees, it is conditioned. Can we be seeing at will? As soon as it sees it falls away and then there are moments of thinking. --------- N: Again, she leads us to the present moment, to seeing now. There is seeing all the time, but we are forgetful of what is right at hand. ---------- L: What is sati? There is no answer to it, it has to develop. ------ Kh S: It has to develop with understanding. -------- Kh S: Begin with understanding realities.... If there is the intention to be aware it is not satipatthana. But when sati arises it is because of the proper conditions. If there is not enough understanding there is the intention to be aware. ------- N: Kh Sujin wants to help people so that they do not cling to an idea of intending to be aware, that does not lead anywhere. If there is not enough understanding of sati as a conditioned dhamma, not self, one tries to have it and that is wrong. -------- L: : It can be developed in daily life. And then one can understand what sati is? That is the answer. When do I know the difference between nama and rupa and how do I know? ------- Kh S: When there is the idea of self, trying so hard it is very uneasy. It is not natural. One is encaged in the cage of lobha. Only pa~n~naa can see this. There can be pa~n`naa right now, be contented with what is understood already. Knowing that one has not much understanding conditions more listening, studying. When there is more understanding of seeing and visible object there can be awareness that is very natural. Visible object, sound, all realities appear in our life without understanding. And now we are talking about realities in order to have less clinging to the idea of self. Intention to be aware is motivated by the idea of self. Pa~n~naa will see that this is not the right Path. Do not think of experiencing realities directly, that is a hindrance. Whatever arises has conditions, nobody can do anything. There is no need to look for anything else. ------ N: We may be thinking of stages of insight with expectation to experience realities directly, but this clinging to insight. It is counteractive. ***** Nina. #74829 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Aug 1, 2007 7:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Response to E-card from Bangkok 3 (4) nilovg Dear Han, Op 1-aug-2007, om 16:31 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > Kyansitha was angry and left the prince behind, > telling him to die there. The prince was later killed > by the enemies. So also I would like to request Ajahn > Sujin to leave me behind at the wrong path to die > thousand times or more in the samsara. -------- N: No, this story is too sad. From what you wrote I understood that you did not take any specific stand on the rosary, but that others did not know this. How easily misunderstandings can arise in the world. I think it is also a custom in Myanmar, like it is in Japan, or like the Moslims have. I would say: not so important. You do not believe that a rosary brings you to enlightenment. Nobody likes to leave you behind. Nina. #74830 From: "nidive" Date: Wed Aug 1, 2007 8:11 am Subject: Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness nidive Hi Jon, > I read this as explaining why the person being spoken of by the > Buddha in the section on anapanasati must be one who has "gone into > the forest or to an empty place" (i.e., become a recluse) and is > not, say, living in a monastery or otherwise living among other > people. So, are you saying the whole of DN 22 is suitable only for monks to practise? > The passage you have quoted describes the difference between the > two, and the difficulty of properly making the change from one to > the other. Do you mean the difficulty of making the change from a lay person to a monk? > Your suggested interpretation ("the meditator is a rookie") would > mean that the Satipatthana Sutta contains an instruction on > anapanasati from the begining up to the highest jhana and > enlightenment, all in the space of a few paragraphs. I don't think > that is what is said or meant. I seems that I am a three year old kid in your eyes, Uncle Jon. > Rather, the sutta passage describes in brief how a monk who has > already become a recluse and is adept in both anapanasati and > awareness may further develop insight and attain enlightenment > with jhana as basis. Really? > A quiet place is an appropriate abode for the person developing the > higher levels of mindfulness of breathing (this 'mindfulness' is a > kind of samatha, not vipassana). Are you saying that a quiet place is not an appropriate abode for a rookie meditator? > Thanks for this observation. This does not surprise me. I see the > whole of the sutta as describing the person in whom mindfulness is > highly developed, rather than being a manual of instruction for > those setting out on the long journey (see some examples from the > sutta at the end of this post). Well, the Buddha said at the beginning of the sutta that "This is the direct path for the purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow & lamentation, for the disappearance of pain & distress, for the attainment of the right method, & for the realization of Unbinding — in other words, the four frames of reference.". > Do you see a difference between a "case where" description and a > "do this" instruction? In the sutta quotes you quoted at the end of your message, the word "practicing" appears 7 times. Isn't that a significant number for a significant word? Swee Boon #74831 From: "nidive" Date: Wed Aug 1, 2007 8:38 am Subject: Not Hard to Accept (Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Walking) nidive Hi Scott, > As I was relating with you in what I thought was a friendly manner, > this was only superficially so, as you can see. I didn't know it at > the time. The slip shows that I was actually very angry with you at > that moment - sorry about that - and is a great lesson to me in both > humility and the impersonal and not-self nature of feelings. I > admit it. I'm glad to know it. But why are you angry with Howard? There must be an underlying cause for it. Swee Boon #74832 From: han tun Date: Wed Aug 1, 2007 9:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Response to E-card from Bangkok 3 (4) hantun1 Dear Nina, N: No, this story is too sad. From what you wrote I understood that you did not take any specific stand on the rosary, but that others did not know this. How easily misunderstandings can arise in the world. I think it is also a custom in Myanmar, like it is in Japan, or like the Moslims have. I would say: not so important. You do not believe that a rosary brings you to enlightenment. Nobody likes to leave you behind. Han: Yes, it is not so important. No, I do not believe that a rosary will bring me to enlightenment. But I repeat: I am doing it to enhance my concentration in paying my tributes to the Buddha. If my practice 'to enhance the concentration', or ‘to have a particular kind of wise reflection to arise’ is a sin, I am guilty. I know nobody will like to leave me behind :>) I also repeat: I like your comment and advice. "Why would prayer beads be wrong? There is no rule. You could also be mindful of motion, pressure or any other reality appearing when you press the beads. That is the highest respect to the Buddha we can give, because satipatthana is his teaching." Respectfully, Han #74833 From: Ken O Date: Wed Aug 1, 2007 9:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kaeng Krachan again 1. ashkenn2k Hi Sarah and Nina > > L: How do I know when there is sati? > > ------- > > Kh S: When there is more understanding about sati because of > hearing about it and considering what one hears. No one can condition its arising. All dhammas are anattaa.At this moment of touching there is no sati. When sati arises the hardness is the same but there is awareness of it. Usually we touch without sati, but when sati arises there is a slight difference. The moment of sati does not last, but when there is sati the characteristic of hardness appears. > ... K: good point, when sati arises there is a slight difference, in fact by saying slight she is just being modest about the importance of sati and panna. there is a whole world of difference :-) that is why she hope people understand what she is trying to say when later she added...but when there is sati the characteristics of hardness appears :-) When characteristics of reality appears, whos owns the dhamma. You me or who :-). Hence seeing is reality, who owns seeing? hahahaha Isn't dhamma wonderful. When we try to see I see, the whole world comes crashing in with existence, craving for being and when we try to say there is no seeing, then we have craving for non being. Hence seeing is just seeing, there is no I to see, no one can stop it as long as kamma induce it and importantly there is seeing (but who is there to see) hahahahah Cheers, just being paradoxical at times for the fun of it. Ken O #74834 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Aug 1, 2007 9:25 am Subject: Not Hard to Accept (Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Walking) scottduncan2 Dear Swee Boon, SB: "But why are you angry with Howard? There must be an underlying cause for it." Scott: Why would you ask this? Sincerely, Scott. #74835 From: Ken O Date: Wed Aug 1, 2007 9:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Another Observation about Mindfulness ashkenn2k Hi All just for the fun of it, who breath. If breath could help, so does birds, cats etc.... breath But some said breathing brings mindfulness, then how come there is no saints in the animal kingdom, some said breathing brings concentration that brings wisdom. If concentration is the way to wisdom, then why do those who perfected the jhanas cannot be Arahant but birth in the brahma heavens. panna...is the key...which could only be develop through investigation, through reflection of the three characteristics... just like when Buddha investigate the usefullness of self affiction, it does not work...he went on pondering until kapooo!... what is it about... he thinks about dependent origination and not concentration....or focus on breathing.... just say the fun of it, hmmm me not going to debate with anyone on this because I think I have said enough on this :-) cheers Ken O #74836 From: Ken O Date: Wed Aug 1, 2007 9:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Theriigaathaa - Sisters (64) ashkenn2k Hi Connie > > ===tbc, > connie. > the way you write is like watching a prime time movie, just when the juicy part is about to be shown, it said to be continued... its makes me itch to see the next installment, keep them coming because it contains great dhamma Cheers Ken O #74837 From: Ken O Date: Wed Aug 1, 2007 9:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: cetanaa, was: Not Hard to Accept ashkenn2k Hi Howard Just like the word bear can have a few meanings in dictionary, so cetana also like that :-) cheers Ken O #74838 From: Ken O Date: Wed Aug 1, 2007 9:45 am Subject: Re: Not Hard to Accept (Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Walking) ashkenn2k Hi Scott > Scott: Why would you ask this? > k: because humans are full of latency of lobha :-) Cheers Ken O #74839 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Aug 1, 2007 11:35 am Subject: Conditions, Ch 9, no 4. nilovg Dear friends, As regards object-prenascence-condition, årammana-purejåta-paccaya, this refers to rúpa which can be object of citta. Since rúpa is weak at its arising moment, it can only be experienced by citta during the moments of its presence. Thus, rúpa which is object of citta has arisen previously to that citta; it conditions that citta by way of prenascence. Visible object which impinges on the eyesense is not experienced immediately; there are first bhavanga-cittas [1], and then the eye-door adverting-consciousness arises which is the first citta of the eye-door process which experiences visible object. This citta arises at the heart-base which has previously arisen and which conditions the citta by way of base-prenascence-condition. It is succeeded by seeing-consciousness which arises at the eye-base and then by other cittas of the eye-door process which arise at the heart- base. Both base and sense object condition the cittas by way of prenascence. It is the same for the cittas which experience sense- objects through the other sense-doors [2]. We read in the “Patthåna” (Analytical Exposition, same section as quoted above) about the object-prenascence-condition. Visible object is here referred to as “visible object-base”, and the same for the other sense objects. The text states: Visible object-base is related to eye-consciousness element and its associated states by prenascence-condition. Sound-base is related to ear-consciousness element and its associated states by prenascence-condiiton. Odour-base is related to nose-consciousness element and its associated states by prenascence-condition. Taste-base is related to tongue-consciousness element and its associated states by prenascence-condition. Tangible object-base is related to body-consciousness element and its associaed states by prenascence-condition. Visible object-base, sound-base, odour-base, taste-base, tangible object-base is related to mind-element and its associated states by prenascence-condition. ------------- 1. Life-continuum. The bhavanga-cittas experience the same object as the paìisandhi-citta. They do not experience the objects which impinge time and again on the six doors. 2. Rúpa does not condition nåma by way of prenascence-condition in the four arúpa-brahma planes since there is no rúpa in those planes. Birth in the arúpa-brahma planes is the result of arúpa-jhåna. Those who see the disadvantage of rúpa cultivate arúpa-jhåna. Neither does prenascence-condition occur in the asaññå-satta plane, the plane of non-percipient beings, where there is no nåma. Birth in that plane is the result of rúpa-jhåna. ********* Nina. #74840 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Aug 1, 2007 11:35 am Subject: In Asoka's Footsteps, Intro, 1. nilovg Dear friends, In Asoka’s Footsteps Dhamma in India, October 1999 Introduction. We read in the “Dialogues of the Buddha” (Dígha Nikåya II, 16, Mahå- Parinibbåna sutta, Ch V, 140) that the Buddha, in the night of his passing away, said to Ånanda: The place, Ånanda, at which the believing man can say:--”Here the Tathågata was born!” is a spot to be visited with feelings of reverence. The place, Ånanda, at which the believing man can say:--”Here the Tathågata attained to the supreme and perfect insight!” is a spot to be visited with feelings of reverence. The place, Ånanda, at which the believing man can say:--”Here was the kingdom of righteousness set on foot by the Tathågata!” is a spot to be visited with feelings of reverence. The place, Ånanda, at which the believing man can say:--”Here the Tathågata passed finally away in the utter passing away which leaves nothing whatever to remain behind!” is a spot to be visited with feelings of reverence. And there will come, Ånanda, to such spots, believers, monks and nuns of the Order, or devout men and women, and will say:--”Here was the Tathågata born!” or, “Here did the Tathågata attain to the supreme and perfect insight!” or, “Here was the kingdom of righteousness set on foot by the Tathågata!” or, “Here the Tathågata passed away in that utter passing away which leaves nothing whatever to remain behind!” And they, Ånanda, who shall die while they, with believing heart, are journeying on such pilgrimage, shall be reborn after death, when the body shall dissolve, in the happy realms of heaven. Some three hundred years after the Buddha’s passing away, Asoka, the great king of the Mauryan Empire, in the twentyfirst year of his reign, in 249 B.C. , undertook a pilgrimage to all the holy places. Asoka was the third ruler of the first truly Indian Empire of the Mauryan dinasty which, at the end of Asoka’s reign, stretched all the way from the Hindu Kush, in today’s Afghanistan, in the West, to the Bay of Bengal in the East and from the Himalayans in the North to somewhere North of Madras in the South. The first years of his reign were reputedly harsh but after the conquest of the Kingdom of Kalinga, Asoka was filled with remorse and he proclaimed the Law of Piety. It was at that time that he converted to a devoted Buddhist. From that time on he did not cease to inspire and exhort his subjects to apply the Dhamma. He governed his vast empire in accordance with the Buddha’s teachings, as can still be witnessed by the numerous “rock edicts” which are preserved. A copy of one of them is placed at the entrance of the National Museum in New Delhi. ******* Nina. #74841 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Aug 1, 2007 2:44 pm Subject: Re: What is the wrong view? (References from the MN anthology) indriyabala Hello Sarah (and others) - S: I think the teachings explain that with a deeper understanding of namas and rupas and the conditioned nature of these, we appreciate that 'Death' as we know it is only a conventional term. In fact the processes of cittas, the arising and falling away of namas and rupas continue on and on, like now (unless arahatship is attained, of course). T: For ariya puggalas who transcend sammuti-sacca then " 'Death' as we know it is only a conventional term", as you said. But I was talking about death and "the other world" of beings as defined in the Sutta-Pitaka, fexample, the following. "And what is death? Whatever deceasing, passing away, breaking up, disappearance, dying, death, completion of time, break up of the aggregates, casting off of the body, interruption in the life faculty of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called death." MN 141 "And what is birth? Whatever birth, taking birth, descent, coming-to- be, coming-forth, appearance of aggregates, & acquisition of [sense] spheres of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called birth. MN 141 And the other world is defined as spheres of beings. "There are these three kinds of being: sense-sphere being, fine- material being and immaterial being." MN 9 S: I think this understanding is therefore dependent on a direct realization, that of the second stage of insight. T: I am sorry? Tep === #74842 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Aug 1, 2007 4:09 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: satipatthana as island of refuge -- Sarah's Request -- indriyabala Hello Sarah (and Scott) - --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Tep, Scott & all, > > Thank you and Scott for your assistance in quoting and cleaning up the > following comments by Sayadaw U Nyanuttara which I thought were relevant > to our discussion. > > I'd like to highlight one passage here: > > --- Tep Sastri wrote: > > > http://www.mahasi.org.mm/discourse/E24/E24ch04.htm > <..> > > Considering these Pali and Commentarial passages, it > > should be understood that the dhammas that take place simultaneously > > are often stated according to common usage as if they take place one > > after the other. Therefore, in the Maha Satipatthana passage, > > contemplation of the four foundations of mindfullness and overcoming > > of hindrances are to be understood as taking place at the same time. > > It means that hindrances are overcome while contemplating the four > > foundations of mindfullness. This interpretation is confirmed by the > > MahaSatipatthana Sutta Commentary which states: "By overcoming > > covetousness and grief is meant the fruit of contemplation." (Note > > 95) It means that Satipatthana contemplation brings about the > > riddance of covetousness and grief. > .... > S: This is why I also think that ideas of being aware of a), then b), then > c), then d) are also quite misguided. If there's an idea of focussing on > the rupas of the body first (as I think someone quoted even B.Bodhi as > referring to), for example, it's also a misunderstanding of the 'common > usage' and of satipatthana. > > Likewise, as explained here, (and as we all agree), the development of > satipatthana leads to the overcoming of covetousness and grief. > > Of course, the hindrances themselves must also be known for what they are > through the development of satipatthana too. For example, Scott and Jon > were recently highlighting the importance of directly understanding wrong > view when it arises as pointed out in a comy note to MN 117. In the > Satipatthana Sutta, the hindrances are given as objects of sati like all > other dhammas. > > Thanks again for your assistance. Nice to all agree on the main point. Let > me know if there's anything else here that is not so acceptable:). > > Metta, > > Sarah > ========== > T: You're welcome. The comments of Sayadaw U Nyanuttara are nothing special. Hindrances can and will often arise during the practice (development) of the four foundations of mindfulness by any non- ariyan who does not know how to get rid of the hindrances, because most of the time he/she does not have the three right conducts as the supporting condition. Therefore, his/her practice will never be successful. The hindrances, like sensual desire and ill-will, are close relatives to covetousness and grief. The meditator who is unable to clear the mind from the hindrances (whenever they arise) cannot overcome covetousness and grief, and will not be able to attain calm and insight knowledges. Thus one goal of the practice is to overcome covetousness and grief in every moment. But at the beginning of the practice, the four foundations of mindfulness must have an appropriate nutriment, otherwise it cannot be cultivated to completion(paripuuraa). A car with an empty tank of gasoline cannot run. AN 10.61 clearly states that this nutriment is the three kinds of good (or right) conduct. Why? Because a meditator who cannot get rid of the bad conducts (akusala) cannot get rid of the hindrances. In other words, only meditators who dwell with the three kinds of right conducts will be able to abandon hindrances and cultivate the four foundations of mindfulness. The following two sutta quotes confirm my interpretation. "He, by getting rid of these five hindrances which are defilements of the mind and weakening to intuitive wisdom, dwells contemplating the body in the body, ardent, clearly conscious [of it], mindful [of it] so as to control the covetousness and dejection in the world. He fares along contemplating the feelings... the mind... the mental states in mental states, ardent, clearly conscious [of them], mindful [of them] so as to control the covetousness and dejection in the world." [MN 125 Dantabhumi Sutta] And, one more time, please read the following quote : AN 10.61 Avijja Sutta "Now, I tell you, clear knowing & release have their nutriment. They are not without nutriment. And what is their nutriment? The seven factors for awakening... And what is the nutriment for the seven factors for awakening? The four frames of reference... And what is the nutriment for the four frames of reference? The three forms of right conduct... And what is the nutriment for the three forms of right conduct? Restraint of the senses... " T: Thus my conclusion is : before starting the practice of the four satipatthana, practice and bring the three kinds of good conduct to their completion. By virtues of the fully-developed three right conducts, and having overcome the hindrances, develop the four satipatthana in the present moment. I believe that concentration and insights can be expected. Tep === #74843 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Aug 1, 2007 4:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Yogacara only, to cross Ts and dot Is lbidd2 Hi Colette, C: "Uncertain of what? Are you uncertain about my terminology or your terminolgy or terminology altogether?" L: Uncertain of whether there are no mistakes in nonduality. Larry #74844 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Aug 1, 2007 7:24 pm Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge scottduncan2 Dear Tep, Thanks for your patience. I've been busy and have too many fingers in the pie. T: Why do you think the linearity principle applies to the 37 wings to awakening? What about nonlinearities? Ven. Thanissaro Bhikkhu elaborates about all these complex conditional relations in his e- book ("The wings to Awakening"). What do you think of his thesis? BTW I agree with you about the levels and strengths." Scott: I'm afraid I'm leery of Ven. Thanissaro's perspective. I recall posting why quite awhile ago. As for the linear/non-linear dimension, I don't know enough about the bodhipakkhiya dhammas to know whether either or both apply. It still strikes me, given the watercourse analogy, that one thing flows into another once the first is full, so to speak. Doesn't this sound like linearity? On the other hand, Pa.t.thaana seems quite non-linear. As you've said (see below) the inter-relations of dhammas at each moment are complex. I suppose it would be both linear and non-linear, but as far as development goes, at least kusala bhaavanaa, I'd guess this has a linearity to it, from less to more, if you know what I mean. T: "I am glad that you mentioned the term "practice". Who practices these dhammas? If there is no one, then how is vijjavimutti directly known?" Scott: I'm sorry, I'm not sure I'm following you. Are you asking who practises? Doesn't pa~n~na know? I think anatta means no-self therefore no one practises. Just conditioned dhammas with characteristics arising and falling away. T: "At the beginning I can see that there is no way all the foods for the seven factors can arise simultaneously in a worldling (they may arise concurrently in an ariyan). Thus it makes sense to me that the seven factors are developed less-dependently and almost separtately at first in any worldling. At a certain stage of development later on some factors will become more inter-related. For example, first, sati and viriya are developed with dhamma-vicaya that lead to piiti and passaddhi before samadhi arises later (who knows when?) We know that sati supports samadhi because the Buddha said that satipatthana is a samadhi nimitta. After sati has been established by the satipatthana bhavana, sati and samaadhi are integrated." Scott: I also need some clarification from this reply (Message #74724). What is the meaning of: "...We know that sati supports samadhi because the Buddha said that satipatthana is a samadhi nimitta"? Scott: I can't find 'samdhi nimitta' anywhere. Any references? Thanks, Tep, Sincerely, Scott. #74845 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Aug 1, 2007 8:31 pm Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge indriyabala Hi Scott, - Scott: Thanks for your patience. I've been busy and have too many fingers in the pie. T: I am aware of your several discussions. So I am going to make the conversation short. ............ Scott: It still strikes me, given the watercourse analogy, that one thing flows into another once the first is full, so to speak. Doesn't this sound like linearity? On the other hand, Pa.t.thaana seems quite non-linear. As you've said (see below) the inter-relations of dhammas at each moment are complex. I suppose it would be both linear and non- linear, but as far as development goes, at least kusala bhaavanaa, I'd guess this has a linearity to it, from less to more, if you know what I mean. T: I think so. True, the "watercourse analogy" is a description of a sequential process. I agree that the sub-process of each dhamma (e.g. satipatthana) along the path of the sequential flow of the ten dhammas can be non-linear. ............ >T: "I am glad that you mentioned the term "practice". Who practices these dhammas? If there is no one, then how is vijjavimutti directly known?" Scott: I'm sorry, I'm not sure I'm following you. Are you asking who practises? Doesn't pa~n~na know? I think anatta means no-self therefore no one practises. Just conditioned dhammas with characteristics arising and falling away. T: Sorry about the confusion. Let me redo it. I am not sure how you may apply the principles of paramattha-dhammas to explain the development process in AN 10.61, i.e. from (1.) association with noble disciples to (10.) release via the other 8 dhammas : (2.)good listening to the teachings, (3.)appropriate attention, (4.)mindfulness & alertness, (5.)restraint of the senses, (6.)three forms of right conduct, (7.) four frames of reference, (8.) seven factors for awakening, (9.) clear knowing. .................. Scott: I can't find 'samdhi nimitta' anywhere. Any references? T: Here is the sutta reference that you asked for. Please note that "theme" is the translation of 'nimitta'. Visakha: "Now what is concentration, what qualities are its themes, what qualities are its requisites, and what is its development?" Sister Dhammadinna: "Singleness of mind is concentration; the four frames of reference are its themes; the four right exertions are its requisites; and any cultivation, development, & pursuit of these qualities is its development." [MN 44 ] Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Dear Tep, > > Thanks for your patience. I've been busy and have too many fingers in > the pie. #74846 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Aug 1, 2007 9:39 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Conditions, Ch 8, no 8. kenhowardau Hi Sarah, --------- <. . .> S: > I think it's good to pursue these good topics and look forward to any further reflections/comments from you or anyone. ---------- Sorry for letting you down, but the muse deserted me. For a while there, I reverted to what we used to call 'lurk mode.' :-) ---------------- <. . .> S: > As I understand, when we refer to dhammas or concepts as object condition, it is simply to their being the object of the citta that is meant. So when the flying purple elephant is the object of thinking, it is object condition, simply by the fact that it is the object and citta must take an object. Nothing more than that. ---------------- Yes, and it makes no difference whether the concept is some kind of silly make-believe or a conventional truth. In any case, a concept has no functions or characteristics of its own. ----------------------- <. . .> S: > . . . 2) The various concepts spoken, thought and imagined have a conditioning power themselves. For example, the more often a baby is introduced to the word and idea of 'mother', the greater the accumulated tendency is to associate the concept with the sounds, visible objects and tactile experiences we call 'mother'. ----------------------- The terminology can be dangerous, though. Concepts never take on a power of their own. We hear authors saying that their characters take on a power of their own and begin to write the book etc. But that's just talk. There are no real instances in which the whole becomes greater than the sum of its parts. Concepts are always just concepts. I hear Ven. T's name being mentioned on another thread. I'll look into it while still out of lurk mode. :-) Ken H #74847 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Aug 1, 2007 10:18 pm Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge kenhowardau Hi Tep (and Scott), ---------- T: > > > "I am glad that you mentioned the term "practice". Who practices these dhammas? If there is no one, then how is vijjavimutti directly known?" Scott: > > I'm sorry, I'm not sure I'm following you. Are you asking who practises? Doesn't pa~n~na know? I think anatta means no-self therefore no one practises. Just conditioned dhammas with characteristics arising and falling away. T: > Sorry about the confusion. Let me redo it. I am not sure how you may apply the principles of paramattha-dhammas to explain the development process in AN 10.61, i.e. from (1.) association with noble disciples to (10.) release via the other 8 dhammas : (2.)good listening to the teachings, (3.)appropriate attention, (4.)mindfulness & alertness, (5.)restraint of the senses, (6.)three forms of right conduct, (7.) four frames of reference, (8.) seven factors for awakening, (9.) clear knowing. ---------------- If you don't mind, Tep, I really would like you to answer the question: "Doesn't anatta mean no one practises?" As an admirer of Ven. Thanissaro you must be aware of his views on anatta. He says it is just a device that stops meditators from thinking about existence and non-existence. He believes that, at parinibbana, consciousness will cross over from the conditioned world, where it is "bound," to the unconditioned world, where it is "unbound." Perhaps I shouldn't be obsessed with TB's heterodox opinions (he is entitled to teach whatever he likes). However, whenever his name comes up in discussions, I always like to know where people stand with regard to them. Thanks in advance. Ken H #74848 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Aug 1, 2007 11:22 pm Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 175, 176 and Tiika. nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 175, 176. Intro: The following sections are partly a review of what was stated before. It is further explained how and when formations condition vipaakacittas. There are in connection with the Dependent Origination thirtytwo types of vipaaka, which may arise as rebirth-consciousness, bhavangacitta and cuticitta, and also in the course of life. But differentiations have to be made as to which types arise as rebirth- consciousness and so on, and which types in the course of life. --------- Text Vis.175: Now in order to eliminate confusion about all these thirty-two kinds of resultant consciousness: One should of these formations see For which and how they are conditions In birth and life in all the three Kinds of becoming and the rest. ------- N: The thirty-two vipaakacittas are: seven akusala vipaakacittas, eight mahaa-vipaakacittas (kusala vipaakacittas of the sense-sphere with roots), eight ahetuka kusala vipaakacittas, altogether: twentythree vipaakacittas of the sense sphere. Further there are: five ruupaavacara vipaakacittas (results of ruupa-jhaana), four aruupaavacara vipaakacittas (results of aruupa-jhaana). altogether: thirtytwo vipaakacittas conditioned by sankhaara, akusala kamma, kusala kamma and imperturbable kamma. Lokuttara vipaakacittas are not included in the Dependent Origination. --------- Text Vis. 176: Herein, the three kinds of becoming, the four kinds of generation, the five kinds of destiny, the seven stations of consciousness, and the nine abodes of beings are what are called 'The kinds of becoming and the rest'. The meaning is that it should be recognized for what kinds of resultant consciousness these [formations] are conditions in rebirth-linking and in the course of an individual existence, and in what way they are conditions in the various kinds of becoming and so on. ------- N: The three kinds of becoming are birth in sensuous planes, birth in ruupa-brahma planes and birth in aruupa-brahma planes. As to the ways of generation (yoni), here is a review (see Vis. 164 and Tiika): The Tiika mentions that there are different births as to the way it is produced, yoni: as egg-born, womb-born, putrescence- (moisture-) born, and of apparitional generation (M.i,73). As to destination (gati): birth is fivefold (M.i,73): the hell planes, the animal world, the realm of the departed, the human world and the devaplanes. As to stations of consciousness (vi~n~naa.na.t.thiti) birth is sevenfold: seven variations are mentioned (in the Co. to the ‘Great Discourse on Causation”): 1. As to diversity in body and in perception, these are humans, some devas (of the six classes which are of the sensesphere), and some spirits in lower realms. Then other variations are mentioned which pertain to different births as a result of different stages of jhaana. 2. Those born in the ruupa-brahma plane as the result of the first jhaana are diverse in body but identical in sa~n~naa. Thus, they are born with the ruupaavacara vipaakacitta that is the result of the first jhaana. Their bodies are different and their lifespan is different according as their attainment of jhaana was limited, medium or superior. 3. Those born as the result of the second and third jhaana are the same in body, but different in sa~n~naa. An example is the gods of streaming radiance, devaa aabhassaraa. 4. Born as result of the fourth jhaana. They are uniform in body and sa~n~naa. 5, 6 and 7 are respectively birth in the aruupa-brahma planes as the result of the aruupa jhanas that have as subject: space is infinite, consciousness is infinite and ‘there is nothing’. These are born without ruupa. The Tiika refers to the difference as to the “abodes of beings” (sattaavaasa), which is eightfold. The abodes of beings are similar to the stations of consciousness, but as eighth is added: birth as result of the fourth aruupa jhaana: the sphere of neither perception nor non-perception. ---------- The Tiika states that what was not classified has been classified in order to remove delusion that could occur. As the text states, it should be known for which types of vipaakacittas arising at rebirth and for which types of vipaakacittas arising in the course of life formations are a condition. And also in what ways formations are conditions for vipaakacittas. This will be explained in the following sections. Conclusion: The text of the Dependent Origination states in short: sa”nkhaara (formations) conditions vi~n~naa.na (here vipaakacitta), but it is beneficial to learn about the details. Kamma performed in the past conditioned our rebirth-consciousness and also all bhavangacittas arising during our life. Moreover, past kammas condition the seeing, hearing and the other sense-cognitions that arise at this moment in our life. When we learn more details there can be a deeper understanding of our life that is in fact conditioned dhammas. *********** Nina. #74849 From: "Leo" Date: Wed Aug 1, 2007 11:44 pm Subject: on bhikkhus and gods leoaive Hi I found two Suttas. One is for Bhikkhu and one is for Brahman. I think it is very interesting ways. Both Suttas are dealing with own mindfulness. Vatthupama Sutta The Simile of the Cloth Translated from the Pali by Nyanaponika Thera PTS: M i 36 --------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. Thus have I heard. Once the Blessed One was staying at Savatthi, in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. There he addressed the monks thus: "Monks." — "Venerable sir," they replied. The Blessed One said this: 2. "Monks, suppose a cloth were stained and dirty, and a dyer dipped it in some dye or other, whether blue or yellow or red or pink, it would take the dye badly and be impure in color. And why is that? Because the cloth was not clean. So too, monks, when the mind is defiled,1 an unhappy destination [in a future existence] may be expected. "Monks, suppose a Cloth were clean and bright, and a dyer dipped it in some dye or other, whether blue or yellow or red or pink, it would take the dye well and be pure in color. And why is that? Because the cloth was clean. So too, monks, when the mind is undefiled, a happy destination [in a future existence] may be expected. 3. "And what, monks, are the defilements of the mind?2 (1) Covetousness and unrighteous greed are a defilement of the mind; (2) ill will is a defilement of the mind; (3) anger is a defilement of the mind; (4) hostility...(5) denigration...(6) domineering...(7) envy...(8) jealousy...(9) hypocrisy...(10) fraud...(11) obstinacy... (12) presumption...(13) conceit...(14) arrogance...(15) vanity... (16) negligence is a defilement of the mind.3 4. "Knowing, monks, covetousness and unrighteous greed to be a defilement of the mind, the monk abandons them.4 Knowing ill will to be a defilement of the mind, he abandons it. Knowing anger to be a defilement of the mind, he abandons it. Knowing hostility to be a defilement of the mind, he abandons it. Knowing denigration to be a defilement of the mind, he abandons it. Knowing domineering to be a defilement of the mind, he abandons it. Knowing envy to be a defilement of the mind, he abandons it. Knowing jealousy to be a defilement of the mind, he abandons it. Knowing hypocrisy to be a defilement of the mind, he abandons it. Knowing fraud to be a defilement of the mind, he abandons it. Knowing obstinacy to be a defilement of the mind, he abandons it. Knowing presumption to be a defilement of the mind, he abandons it. Knowing conceit to be a defilement of the mind, he abandons it. Knowing arrogance to be a defilement of the mind, he abandons it. Knowing vanity to be a defilement of the mind, he abandons it. Knowing negligence to be a defilement of the mind, he abandons it. 5. "When in the monk who thus knows that covetousness and unrighteous greed are a defilement of the mind, this covetousness and unrighteous greed have been abandoned; when in him who thus knows that ill will is a defilement of the mind, this ill will has been abandoned;... when in him who thus knows that negligence is a defilement of the mind, this negligence has been abandoned — 6. — he thereupon gains unwavering confidence in the Buddha thus: 'Thus indeed is the Blessed One: he is accomplished, fully enlightened, endowed with [clear] vision and [virtuous] conduct, sublime, knower of the worlds, the incomparable guide of men who are tractable, the teacher of gods and men, enlightened and blessed.' 7. — he gains unwavering confidence in the Dhamma thus: 'Well proclaimed by the Blessed One is the Dhamma, realizable here and now, possessed of immediate result, bidding you come and see, accessible and knowable individually by the wise. 8. — he gains unwavering confidence in the Sangha thus: 'The Sangha of the Blessed One's disciples has entered on the good way, has entered on the straight way, has entered on the true way, has entered on the proper way; that is to say, the four pairs of men, the eight types of persons; this Sangha of the Blessed One's disciples is worthy of gifts, worthy of hospitality, worthy of offerings, worthy of reverential salutation, the incomparable field of merit for the world.' 9. "When he has given up, renounced, let go, abandoned and relinquished [the defilements] in part, he knows: 'I am endowed with unwavering confidence in the Buddha... in the Dhamma... in the Sangha; and he gains enthusiasm for the goal, gains enthusiasm for the Dhamma, gains gladness connected with the Dhamma. When he is gladdened, joy is born in him; being joyous in mind, his body becomes tranquil; his body being tranquil, he feels happiness; and the mind of him who is happy becomes concentrated. 10. "He knows: 'I have given up, renounced, let go, abandoned and relinquished [the defilements] in part'; and he gains enthusiasm for the goal, gains enthusiasm for the Dhamma, gains gladness connected with the Dhamma. When he is gladdened, joy is born in him; being joyous in mind, his body becomes tranquil; when his body is tranquil, he feels happiness; and the mind of him who is happy becomes concentrated. 11. "If, monks, a monk of such virtue, such concentration and such wisdom eats almsfood consisting of choice hill-rice together with various sauces and curries, even that will be no obstacle for him. "Just as cloth that is stained and dirty becomes clean and bright with the help of pure water, or just as gold becomes clean and bright with the help of a furnace, so too, if a monk of such virtue, such concentration and such wisdom eats almsfood consisting of choice hill-rice together with various sauces and curries, even that will be no obstacle for him. 12. "He abides, having suffused with a mind of loving-kindness12 one direction of the world, likewise the second, likewise the third, likewise the fourth, and so above, below, around and everywhere, and to all as to himself; he abides suffusing the entire universe with loving-kindness, with a mind grown great, lofty, boundless and free from enmity and ill will. "He abides, having suffused with a mind of compassion... of sympathetic joy... of equanimity one direction of the world, likewise the second, likewise the third, likewise the fourth, and so above, below, around and everywhere, and to all as to himself; he abides suffusing the entire universe with equanimity, with a mind grown great, lofty, boundless and free from enmity and ill will. 13. "He understands what exists, what is low, what is excellent,13 and what escape there is from this [whole] field of perception.14 14. "When he knows and sees15 in this way, his mind becomes liberated from the canker of sensual desire, liberated from the canker of becoming, liberated from the canker of ignorance. When liberated, there is knowledge: 'It is liberated'; and he knows: 'Birth is exhausted, the life of purity has been lived, the task is done, there is no more of this to come.' Such a monk is called 'one bathed with the inner bathing." 15. Now at that time the brahman Sundarika Bharadvaja was seated not far from the Blessed One, and he spoke to the Blessed One thus: "But does Master Gotama go to the Bahuka River to bathe?" "What good, brahman, is the Bahuka River? What can the Bahuka River do?" "Truly, Master Gotama, many people believe that the Bahuka River gives purification, many people believe that the Bahuka River gives merit. For in the Bahuka River many people wash away the evil deeds they have done." 16. Then the Blessed One addressed the brahman Sundarika Bharadvaja in these stanzas: Bahuka and Adhikakka, Gaya and Sundarika, Payaga and Sarassati, And the stream Bahumati — A unwise may there forever bathe, Yet will not purify his bad deeds. What can Sundarika bring to pass? What can the Payaga and the Bahuka? They cannot purify an evil-doer, A man performing brutal and cruel acts. One pure in heart has evermore The Feast of Cleansing21 and the Holy Day; One pure in heart who does good deeds Has his observances perfect for all times. It is here, O brahman, that you should bathe To make yourself a safe refuge for all beings. And if you speak no untruth, Nor work any harm for breathing things, Nor take what is not offered, With faith and with no avarice, To Gaya gone, what would it do for you? Let any well your Gaya be! 17. When this was said, the brahman Sundarika Bharadvaja spoke thus: "Magnificent, Master Gotama! Magnificent, Master Gotama! The Dhamma has been made clear in many ways by Master Gotama, as though he were righting the overthrown, revealing the hidden, showing the way to one who is lost, or holding up a lamp in the dark for those with eyesight to see forms. 18. "I go to Master Gotama for refuge, and to the Dhamma, and to the Sangha. May I receive the [first ordination of] going forth under Master Gotama, may I receive the full admission! 19. And the brahman Sundarika Bharadvaja received the [first ordination of] going forth under the Blessed One, and he received the full admission. And not long after his full admission, dwelling alone, secluded, diligent, ardent and resolute, the venerable Bharadvaja by his own realization understood and attained in this very life that supreme goal of the pure life, for which men of good family go forth from home life into homelessness. And he had direct knowledge thus: "Birth is exhausted, the pure life has been lived, the task is done, there is no more of this to come." And the venerable Bharadvaja became one of the Arahats. MN 41 Saleyyaka Sutta The Brahmans of Sala Translated from the Pali by Ñanamoli Thera PTS: M i 285 --------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. Thus have I heard. On one occasion the Blessed One was wandering in the Kosalan country with a large Sangha of bhikkhus, and eventually he arrived at a Kosalan brahman village called Sala. 2. The brahman householders of Sala heard: "A monk called Gotama, it seems, a son of the Sakyans who went forth from a Sakyan clan, has been wandering in the Kosalan country with a large Sangha of bhikkhus and has come to Sala. Now a good report of Master Gotama has been spread to this effect: 'That Blessed One is such since he is arahant and Fully Enlightened, perfect in true knowledge and conduct, sublime, knower of worlds, incomparable teacher of men to be tamed, teacher of gods and humans, enlightened, blessed. He describes this world with its gods, its Maras, and its (Brahma) Divinities, this generation with its monks and brahmans, with its kings and its people, which he has himself realized through direct knowledge. He teaches a Dhamma that is good in the beginning, good in the middle and good in the end with (the right) meaning and phrasing, he affirms a holy life that is utterly perfect and pure.' Now it is good to see such arahants." 3. The brahman householders of Sala went to the Blessed One; and some paid homage to the Blessed One and sat down at one side; some exchanged greetings with him, and when the courteous and amiable talk was finished, sat down at one side; some raised hands palms together in salutation to the Blessed One and sat down at one side; some pronounced their name and clan in the Blessed One's presence and sat down at one side; some kept silence and sat down at one side. 4. When they were seated, they said to the Blessed One: "Master Gotama, what is the reason, what is the condition, why some beings here, on the dissolution of the body, after death, reappear in states of deprivation, in an unhappy destination, in perdition, even in hell; and what is the reason, what is the condition, why some beings here, on the dissolution of the body, after death, reappear in a happy destination, even in the heavenly world?" 5. "Householders, it is by reason of conduct not in accordance with the Dhamma, by reason of unrighteous conduct, that beings here on the dissolution of the body, after death, reappear in states of deprivation, in an unhappy destination, in perdition, even in hell. It is by reason of conduct in accordance with the Dhamma, by reason of righteous conduct, that some beings here on the dissolution of the body, after death, reappear in a happy destination, even in the heavenly world." 6. "We do not understand the detailed meaning of this utterance of Master Gotama's spoken in brief without expounding the detailed meaning. It would be good if Master Gotama taught us the Dhamma so that we might understand the detailed meaning of Master Gotama's utterance spoken in brief without expounding the detailed meaning." "Then, householders, listen and heed well what I shall say." "Yes, venerable sir," they replied. The Blessed One said this: 7. "Householders, there are three kinds of bodily conduct not in accordance with the Dhamma, unrighteous conduct. There are four kinds of verbal conduct not in accordance with the Dhamma, unrighteous conduct. There are three kinds of mental conduct not in accordance with the Dhamma, unrighteous conduct. 8. "And how are there three kinds of bodily conduct not in accordance with the Dhamma, unrighteous conduct? Here someone is a killer of living beings: he is murderous, bloody-handed, given to blows and violence, and merciless to all living beings. He is a taker of what is not given: he takes as a thief another's chattels and property in the village or in the forest. He is given over to misconduct in sexual desires: he has intercourse with such (women) as are protected by the mother, father, (mother and father), brother, sister, relatives, as have a husband, as entail a penalty, and also with those that are garlanded in token of betrothal. That is how there are three kinds of bodily conduct not in accordance with the Dhamma, unrighteous conduct. 9. "And how are there four kinds of verbal conduct not in accordance with the Dhamma, unrighteous conduct? Here someone speaks falsehood: when summoned to a court or to a meeting, or to his relatives' presence, or to his guild, or to the royal family's presence, and questioned as a witness thus, 'So, good man, tell what you know,' then, not knowing, he says 'I know,' or knowing, he says 'I do not know,' not seeing, he says 'I see,' or seeing, he says 'I do not see'; in full awareness he speaks falsehood for his own ends or for another's ends or for some trifling worldly end. He speaks maliciously: he is a repeater elsewhere of what is heard here for the purpose of causing division from these, or he is a repeater to these of what is heard elsewhere for the purpose of causing division from those, and he is thus a divider of the united, a creator of divisions, who enjoys discord, rejoices in discord, delights in discord, he is a speaker of words that create discord. He speaks harshly: he utters such words as are rough, hard, hurtful to others, censorious of others, bordering on anger and unconducive to concentration. He is a gossip: as one who tells that which is unseasonable, that which is not fact, that which is not good, that which is not the Dhamma, that which is not the Discipline, and he speaks out of season speech not worth recording, which is unreasoned, indefinite, and unconnected with good. That is how there are four kinds of verbal conduct not in accordance with the Dhamma, unrighteous conduct. 10. "And how are there three kinds of mental conduct not in accordance with the Dhamma, unrighteous conduct? Here someone is covetous: he is a coveter of another's chattels and property thus: 'Oh, that what is another's were mine!' Or he has a mind of ill-will, with the intention of a mind affected by hate thus: 'May these beings be slain and slaughtered, may they be cut off, perish, or be annihilated!' Or he has wrong view, distorted vision, thus: 'There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed, no fruit and ripening of good and bad kammas, no this world, no other world, no mother, no father, no spontaneously (born) beings,1 no good and virtuous monks and brahmans that have themselves realized by direct knowledge and declare this world and the other world.'2 That is how there are three kinds of mental conduct not in accordance with the Dhamma, unrighteous conduct. "So, householders, it is by reason of conduct not in accordance with the Dhamma, by reason of unrighteous conduct, that some beings here, on the dissolution of the body, after death, reappear in states of deprivation, in an unhappy destination, in perdition, even in hell. 11. "Householders, there are three kinds of bodily conduct in accordance with the Dhamma, righteous conduct. There are four kinds of verbal conduct in accordance with the Dhamma, righteous conduct. There are three kinds of mental conduct in accordance with the Dhamma, righteous conduct. 12. "And how are there three kinds of bodily conduct in accordance with the Dhamma, righteous conduct? Here someone, abandoning the killing of living beings, becomes one who abstains from killing living beings; with rod and weapon laid aside, gentle and kindly, he abides compassionate to all living beings. Abandoning the taking of what is not given, he becomes one who abstains from taking what is not given; he does not take as a thief another's chattels and property in the village or in the forest. Abandoning misconduct in sexual desires, he becomes one who abstains from misconduct in sexual desires: he does not have intercourse with such women as are protected by mother, father, (father and mother), brother, sister, relatives, as have a husband, as entail a penalty, and also those that are garlanded in token of betrothal. That is how there are three kinds of bodily conduct in accordance with the Dhamma, righteous conduct. 13. "And how are there four of verbal conduct in accordance with the Dhamma, righteous conduct? Here someone, abandoning false speech, becomes one who abstains from false speech: when summoned to a court or to a meeting or to his relatives' presence or to his guild or to the royal family's presence, and questioned as a witness thus, 'So, good man, tell what you know,' not knowing, he says 'I do not know,' or knowing, he says 'I know,' not seeing he says 'I do not see,' or seeing, he says 'I see'; he does not in full awareness speak falsehood for his own ends or for another's ends or for some trifling worldly end. Abandoning malicious speech, he becomes one who abstains from malicious speech: as one who is neither a repeater elsewhere of what is heard here for the purpose of causing division from these, nor a repeater to these of what is heard elsewhere for the purpose of causing division from those, who is thus a reuniter of the divided, a promoter of friendships, enjoying concord, rejoicing in concord, delighting in concord, he becomes a speaker of words that promote concord. Abandoning harsh speech, he becomes one who abstains from harsh speech: he becomes a speaker of such words as are innocent, pleasing to the ear and lovable, as go to the heart, are civil, desired of many and dear to many. Abandoning gossip, he becomes one who abstains from gossip: as one who tells that which is seasonable, that which is factual, that which is good, that which is the Dhamma, that which is the Discipline, he speaks in season speech worth recording, which is reasoned, definite and connected with good. That is how there are four kinds of verbal conduct in accordance with the Dhamma, righteous conduct. 14. "And how are there three kinds of mental conduct in accordance with the Dhamma, righteous conduct? Here someone is not covetous: he is not a coveter of another's chattels and property thus: 'Oh, that what is another's were mine!' He has no mind of ill-will, with the intention of a mind unaffected by hate thus: 'May these beings be free from enmity, affliction and anxiety, may they live happily!' He has right view, undistorted vision, thus: 'There is what is given and what is offered and what is sacrificed, and there is fruit and ripening of good and bad kammas, and there is this world and the other world and mother and father and spontaneously (born) beings, and good and virtuous monks and brahmans that have themselves realized by direct knowledge and declared this world and the other world.' That is how there are three kinds of mental conduct in accordance with the Dhamma, righteous conduct. "So, householders, it is by reason of conduct in accordance with the Dhamma, by reason of righteous conduct, that some beings here, on the dissolution of the body, after death, reappear in a happy destination, even in the heavenly world. 15. "If a householder who observes conduct in accordance with the Dhamma, righteous conduct, should wish: 'Oh, that on the dissolution of the body, after death, I might reappear in the company of the warrior-nobles of great property!' it is possible that on the dissolution of the body, after death, he may do so. Why is that? Because he observes conduct that is in accordance with the Dhamma, righteous conduct. 16. "If a householder who observes conduct is accordance with the Dhamma, righteous conduct, should wish: 'Oh, that on the dissolution of the body, after death, I might reappear in the company of the brahmans of great property!' it is possible... 17. "If a householder who observes conduct in accordance with the Dhamma,...'... I might reappear in the company of householders of great property!' it is possible... 18. "If a householder who observes conduct in accordance with the Dhamma, righteous conduct, should wish: 'Oh, that on the dissolution of the body, after death, I might reappear in the company of the gods of the Four Kings!' it is possible that on the dissolution of the body, after death, he may do so. Why is that? Because he observes conduct in accordance with the Dhamma, righteous conduct. 19. ...of the gods of the Realm of the Thirty-three...3 20. ...of the gods that have Gone to Bliss... 21. ...of the Contented gods... 22. ...of the gods that Delight in Creating... 23. ...of the gods that Wield Power over others' Creations... 24. ...of the gods of Brahma's Retinue... 25. ...of the Radiant gods... 26. ...of the gods of Limited Radiance... 27. ...of the gods of Measureless Radiance... 28. ...of the gods of Streaming Radiance... 29. ...of the Glorious gods... 30. ...of the gods of Limited Glory... 31. ...of the gods of Measureless Glory... 32. ...of the gods of Refulgent Glory... 33. ...of the Very Fruitful gods... 34. ...of the gods Bathed in their own Prosperity... 35. ...of the Untormenting gods... 36. ...of the Fair-to-see gods... 37. ...of the Fair-seeing gods... 38. ...of the gods who are Junior to None... 39. ...of the gods of the base consisting of the infinity of space... 40. ...of the gods of the base consisting of the infinity of consciousness... 41. ...of the gods of the base consisting of nothingness... 42. "If a householder who observes conduct in accordance with the Dhamma, righteous conduct, should wish: 'Oh, that on the dissolution of the body, after death, I might reappear in the company of the gods of the base consisting of neither-perception-nor-non- perception!' it is possible that, on the dissolution of the body, after death, he may do so. Why is that? Because he observes conduct in accordance with the Dhamma, righteous conduct. 43. "If a householder who observes conduct in accordance with the Dhamma, righteous conduct, should wish: 'Oh, that by realization myself with direct knowledge, I may here and now enter upon and abide in the deliverance of the heart and the deliverance by wisdom that are taint-free with exhaustion of taints!' it is possible that, by realization himself with direct knowledge, he may here and now enter upon and abide in the deliverance of the heart and the deliverance by wisdom that are taint-free with exhaustion of taints. Why is that? Because he observes conduct in accordance with the Dhamma, righteous conduct." 44. When this was said, the brahman householders of Sala said to the Blessed One: "Magnificent, Master Gotama! Magnificent, Master Gotama! The Dhamma has been made clear in many ways by Master Gotama, as though he were turning upright what had been overthrown, revealing the hidden, showing the way to one who was lost, holding up a lamp in the darkness for those with eyes to see forms. 45. "We go to Master Gotama for refuge, and to the Dhamma, and to the Sangha of bhikkhus. From today let Master Gotama accept us as followers who have gone to him for refuge for life." #74850 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 12:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Response to E-card from Bangkok 3 (1) - Vipallaasas sarahprocter... Dear Nina, --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Han (and Sarah), > it has been explained in the commentaries that rupakkhandha comprises > all rupas, not just rupas of the body. Perhaps this can help? > Sarah, before in the bus in India we recited the Anattalakkhana > Sutta, what are your plans? But I have to get hold of a Pali text. ... S: As Han mentioned, I think the words of the sutta I quoted already clarify this. 'internal, external etc....' Anything else from the comy would be interesting too, of course. I remember we were reciting the Dhammacakkapavattana Sutta tog, but forget about reciting this one. Next time, perhaps. Plans! Good question. They change each day and a few hundred times each day too:). Yesterday we were surfing with a couple of dozen dolphins also surfing waves and jumping out of the water in this sunny Australian winter weather. We may never leave! We keep changing our bookings to stay on longer at this Sydney ocean spot, given these lovely conditions. Too lazy to move. Due back in HK on 13th or 14th Aug. Jon arrived with a frozen shoulder,unable to lift his arm at all or carry even a light bag. Each day it's making great recovery with all the water exercise. Same with rashes etc from the heat and humidity....good to have the cool break. Hope your leg's doing OK with all your walking. We had a lovely long walk on Sunday too. Look forward to hearing about your further discussions with Lodewijk. Metta, Sarah ========= #74851 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 12:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Conditions, Ch 8, no 8. sarahprocter... Hi Ken H, --- kenhowardau wrote: > Sorry for letting you down, but the muse deserted me. For a while > there, I reverted to what we used to call 'lurk mode.' :-) ... S: Still is 'lurk mode' as far as I know:-) You didn't let me down. .... > ---------------- > <. . .> > S: > As I understand, when we refer to dhammas or concepts as object > condition, it is simply to their being the object of the citta that is > meant. So when the flying purple elephant is the object of thinking, > it is object condition, simply by the fact that it is the object and > citta must take an object. Nothing more than that. > ---------------- > > Yes, and it makes no difference whether the concept is some kind of > silly make-believe or a conventional truth. In any case, a concept > has no functions or characteristics of its own. .... S: Exactly. .... ----------------------- > <. . .> > S: > . . . 2) The various concepts spoken, thought and imagined have > a conditioning power themselves. For example, the more often a baby > is introduced to the word and idea of 'mother', the greater the > accumulated tendency is to associate the concept with the sounds, > visible objects and tactile experiences we call 'mother'. > ----------------------- > > The terminology can be dangerous, though. Concepts never take on a > power of their own. We hear authors saying that their characters take > on a power of their own and begin to write the book etc. But that's > just talk. There are no real instances in which the whole becomes > greater than the sum of its parts. Concepts are always just concepts. ... S: Right, I'm sure we agree. The sense in which concepts condition cittas and cetasikas by NDSC is for example, when knowing/thinking this is a 'computer', it is a condition for thinking of computers in future. Computer is always a concept, but we become very used to such concepts (regardless of any understanding) and the sanna is there marking the object so that that association or idea will be 'retained'. As you say, the terminology can be dangerous and the concepts themselves can take on a reality all of their own. No need to belabour this.....but glad to see you out of lurk mode again:-) .... > I hear Ven. T's name being mentioned on another thread. I'll look > into it while still out of lurk mode. :-) .... S: That sounds like a good 'wave' for you - go, go, go! Metta, Sarah ======== #74852 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 12:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: satipatthana as island of refuge sarahprocter... Hi Tep & all, --- Tep Sastri wrote: > > Hi, Sarah - > > S: In some contexts, any guarding and any wise attention refer to > the development of satipatthana, or insights into paramattha dhammas > leading to enlightenment. How does this sound? > > T: It sounds like a distant whisper to me. Satipatthana is just one > of the ten dhammas that are the theme of AN 10.61. How do you see > paramattha dhammas in the vijjaavimutti development process of this > sutta? .... S: As I see it, there is no vijjavimmutti without the development of satipatthana and it is paramattha dhammas only that have to be understood by sati sampajanna in this development and fully penetrated by the developed wisdom resulting in the vijjavimutti. ,,,, > FYI : these ten dhammas are as follows. > 1. sappurisasa.mseva 2. saddhammasavana 3. saddha > 4. yonisomanasikaara 5. satisampaja~n~na 6.indriyasa.mvara 7. tii.ni > sucaritaani 8. cattaaro satipa.t.thaana 9. satta bojjha'nga 10. > vijjaavimutti. ... S: So it is the association with the wisdom (of the Buddha and ariyans)that has penetrated the nature of paramattha dhammas, the hearing, the confidence, the wise attention to such, the development of sati and panna in order that the indriyas are developed, the characteristics of dhammas fully penetrated, the enlightenment factors fulfilled that leads to attainment/enlightenment. Does it still sound like a distant whisper? If so, let's continue discussing. .... (Please forgive any wrong spellings.) ... S: No problem at all. You've done a good job! ... > T: I think if I continue to quote from AN 10.61, it may sound like a > broken record. Thank you for the patience -- ... S: Not at all. I was the one testing your patience by losing track of threads when we were travelling. ... >I know that my posts are > not as interesting as the recent dialogues between Scott and Howard ! ... S: Ooh, a little comparision! What kind of cittas compare in this way?:-) They were riding a few big waves which of course always makes a good spectacle, but am glad to see they're in safe waters now. Seriously, the Dhamma in general and any part of it which touches on 'our practice' or 'belief systems' is bound to arouse deep emotions at times. Like Nina mentioned with Lodewijk's outbursts. I'm sure it's common and only passing dhammas, not anyone's. Soon gone:). Look f/w to your further comments on any of this. Metta, Sarah ======== #74853 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 1:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Response to E-card from Bangkok 3 (1) - Vipallaasas nilovg Dear Sarah, Op 2-aug-2007, om 9:32 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > Hope your leg's doing OK with all your walking. We had a lovely > long walk > on Sunday too. Look forward to hearing about your further > discussions with > Lodewijk. ------- N: Thank you for your concern. It went just as with Jon's shoulder. Lots of walking and the pain in both legs I had is gone. It took a long time. I am glad for Jon. After my post on K.K. 2 Lodewijk said something, and I will hook into Ken's post on anattaa. Of course, it was the Dhammacakkapavattana Sutta, I got mixed up. Have a lovely stay. any meetings with friends? Nina. #74854 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 1:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: satipatthana as island of refuge nilovg Dear Ken, Scott, Sarah, Tep and all, Op 2-aug-2007, om 7:18 heeft kenhowardau het volgende geschreven: quotes Scott: > I think anatta means no-self > therefore no one practises. Just conditioned dhammas with > characteristics arising and falling away. --------- Ken: If you don't mind, Tep, I really would like you to answer the question: "Doesn't anatta mean no one practises?" ------- N: This reminds me of a conversation I had with Lodewijk after he read K.K. again 2. He said that when people hear: nobody can do anything, they may become confused. I can understand that, people may think of laziness, or they feel hopeless. It means that when there are no conditions, sati cannot arise. Listening and considering what we hear are the right conditions, but even the fact that we listen to the good friend in Dhamma is conditioned. When Kh Sujin says: nobody can do anything, she does not deny conditions, but it is meant as a reminder to have the right attitude. When we want to 'do' anything to have more sati this is clinging and counteractive. It is of no use to think of doing anything to have sati. There was listening in the past and in that way right understanding is accumulated. It can arise again and thus it can grow. Let us forget about doing, cetasikas do their own work. They are not persons who act (little actors), mere conditioned dhammas. Lodewijk said that he has come a little bit closer to understanding what sati is. I said that this shows that pa~n~aa grows. It is always little by little. ---------- Nina. #74855 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 3:41 am Subject: Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness jonoabb Hi Swee Boon --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > > Hi Jon, > > > I read this as explaining why the person being spoken of by the > > Buddha in the section on anapanasati must be one who has "gone into > > the forest or to an empty place" (i.e., become a recluse) and is > > not, say, living in a monastery or otherwise living among other > > people. > > So, are you saying the whole of DN 22 is suitable only for monks to > practise? Not at all. We were discussing the commentary to the anapanasati section of DN 22 in particular, and my comments were in relation to that section only. As I said, I read this as explaining why the person being spoken of by the Buddha must be one who has become a recluse and is not living among other people. So whether monk or layperson, the same considerations apply. And just to clarify, I do not see the Satipatthana Sutta as having relevance only for monks. What is said there applies to layfollowers as well. > > The passage you have quoted describes the difference between the > > two, and the difficulty of properly making the change from one to > > the other. > > Do you mean the difficulty of making the change from a lay person to > a monk? I meant the difficulty in making the change from the life of one who, in the words of the commentary, dwells on visual and other objects (i.e., and ordinary monk's or layfollower's life) to the life of a recluse (whether as an ordained monk or not) devoted to the development of samatha (and satipatthana). > > Your suggested interpretation ("the meditator is a rookie") would > > mean that the Satipatthana Sutta contains an instruction on > > anapanasati from the begining up to the highest jhana and > > enlightenment, all in the space of a few paragraphs. I don't think > > that is what is said or meant. > > I seems that I am a three year old kid in your eyes, Uncle Jon. I'm sorry if my comments come across like that. I was explaining why I disagreed with your conclusion that the meditator is a rookie. Let me try again. If in the anapanasati section of DN 22 the Buddha is addressing someone who has until that time not developed samatha or vipassana at all, then the anapanasati section contains the complete path from start to finish. Is that how you see it? I hope we can discuss further. Please ignore any "Uncle Jon" tone in these remarks. > > Rather, the sutta passage describes in brief how a monk who has > > already become a recluse and is adept in both anapanasati and > > awareness may further develop insight and attain enlightenment > > with jhana as basis. > > Really? My reading. You are free to disagree ;-)). Do you have any particular comments? For example, does my reading seem inconsistent with the wording of the sutta? Will pause there and perhaps reply to the rest of your post separately. Jon #74856 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 4:04 am Subject: Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness II jonoabb Hi Swee Boon Continuing ... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > > Hi Jon, ... > > A quiet place is an appropriate abode for the person developing the > > higher levels of mindfulness of breathing (this 'mindfulness' is a > > kind of samatha, not vipassana). > > Are you saying that a quiet place is not an appropriate abode for a > rookie meditator? Living the life of a recluse, in the sense spoken of in the commentary, is something that is not easy to achieve, according to the texts. I believe it would be suited only to those who have the specific capability and temperament. > > Thanks for this observation. This does not surprise me. I see the > > whole of the sutta as describing the person in whom mindfulness is > > highly developed, rather than being a manual of instruction for > > those setting out on the long journey (see some examples from the > > sutta at the end of this post). > > Well, the Buddha said at the beginning of the sutta that "This is the > direct path for the purification of beings, for the overcoming of > sorrow & lamentation, for the disappearance of pain & distress, for > the attainment of the right method, & for the realization of > Unbinding — in other words, the four frames of reference.". Yes. The sutta then describes the necessary elements of each of the four frames of reference, which are the following: - to *live contemplating* (body in body, feelings in feelings, etc) - to be *ardent, clearly comprehending and mindful* - having *overcome, in this world, covetousness and grief* These are all accomplishments, rather than a technique of training, in my view. How do you see it? > > Do you see a difference between a "case where" description and a > > "do this" instruction? > > In the sutta quotes you quoted at the end of your message, the word > "practicing" appears 7 times. Isn't that a significant number for a > significant word? Yes, significant. But I read 'practicing' in the context as meaning something like 'able to attain' rather than 'trying to follow a given technique/practice'. As in 'a doctor practising medicine' rather than 'a person practising the piano'. How do you see it? Jon #74857 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 4:59 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (64) nichiconn Dear KenO and other anxious readers: 11. Dvaadasakanipaato 1. Uppalava.n.naatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa part 5 txt: Raajaa taapasassa pabbajitaparikkhaarabha.n.da.m paadamuule .thapetvaa, "bhante, imasmi.m .thaane ki.m karoma, gamissaamaa"ti aaha. "Gaccha, mahaaraajaa"ti. "Aama, gacchaami, bhante, ayyassa pana samiipe visabhaagaparisaa atthii"ti assumhaa, asaaruppaa esaa pabbajitaana.m, mayaa saddhi.m gacchatu, bhanteti. Manussaana.m naama citta.m duttosaya.m, katha.m bahuuna.m majjhe vasissatiiti? Amhaaka.m rucitakaalato pa.t.thaaya sesaana.m je.t.thaka.t.thaane .thapetvaa pa.tijaggissaama, bhanteti. So ra~n~no katha.m sutvaa daharakaale gahitanaamavaseneva, "amma, padumavatii"ti dhiitara.m pakkosi. Saa ekavacaneneva pa.n.nasaalato nikkhamitvaa pitara.m abhivaadetvaa a.t.thaasi. Atha na.m pitaa aaha- "tva.m, amma, vayappattaa, imasmi.m .thaane ra~n~naa di.t.thakaalato pa.t.thaaya vasitu.m ayuttaa, ra~n~naa saddhi.m gaccha, ammaa"ti. Saa "saadhu, taataa"ti pitu vacana.m sampa.ticchitvaa abhivaadetvaa rodamaanaa a.t.thaasi. Pruitt: The king placed the requisites for one who has gone forth at the ascetic's feet and said, "Venerable sir, what should we do in this place? We shall go away." "Then go, great king," [the ascetic] said. "Yes, I am going, venerable sir," [the king said]. "But we heard, there is some unusual company near you, venerable sir.* This is improper for one who has gone forth. Let her come with me, venerable sir." "The mind[s] of men are pleased with evil. How can she live among so many?" [said the ascetic.] "From the time we choose her," [the king said,] "we shall place her in a position that is superior to others and look after her, venerable sir." When he heard what the king siad, he summoned his daughter by the name she had been given when she was young. "Padumavatii, my dear."** She came out of the hut of leaves after that single statement, paid respects to her father, and stood there. Then her father said, "My dear, you have come of age. It is unsuitable for you to live in this place since you have been seen by the king. Go with the king, my dear." "Very good, papa," she said, agreeing with her father's suggestion. She paid respects and stood there crying. *The king is hinting that an ascetic would not normally have a woman living with him. **Her name means: "Born of the Lotus." ===tbc, connie. #74858 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 6:03 am Subject: Asoka, Intro, 2. nilovg Dear friends, In the seventeenth year of his reign, under his patronage, the Third Council was held by Moggaliputta-Tissa [1]. During this Council the Buddhist teaching and the Sangha were firmly established. Shortly afterwards, Asoka sent his son [2] Mahinda to Sri Lanka and also missionaries to other countries to propagate the teachings. In the “Indian Legends”, a record of Asoka’s reign, his pilgrimage to the holy places is described as follows [3]: The Pilgrimage of Asoka. Having erected the eighty-four thousand stupas, King Asoka expressed a desire to visit the holy places of his religion. By the advice of his counsellors he sent for the saint Upagupta [4], son of Gupta the perfumer. Upagupta had been in accordance with prophecy born a century after the death of the Buddha, and, when summoned by the king, was dwelling on Mount Urumunda in the Natabhatika forest near Mathurå. The saint accepted the royal invitation, and, accompanied by eighteen thousand holy men, travelled in state by boat down the Jumna and Ganges to Påtaliputra, where he was received with the utmost reverence and honour. The king said: “I desire to visit all the places where the venerable Buddha stayed, to do honour unto them, and to mark each with an enduring memorial for the instruction of the most remote posterity.” The saint approved of the project, and undertook to act as guide. Escorted by a mighty army the monarch visited all the holy places in order. The first place visited was the Lumbini Garden. Here Upagupta said: “In this spot, great king, the venerable One was born”; and added: “Here is the first monument consecrated in honour of the Buddha, the sight of whom is excellent. Here, the moment after his birth, the recluse took seven steps upon the ground.” The king bestowed a hundred thousand gold pieces on the people of the place, and built a stupa. He then passed on to Kapilavastu. The royal pilgrim next visited the Bodhi-tree at Bodh Gaya, and there also gave a largess of a hundred thousand gold pieces, and built a chaitya (cedi). Rishipatana (Sarnath) near Benares, where Gautama had “turned the wheel of the law”, and Kusinagare, where the teacher had passed away, were also visited with similar observances. At Sråvastí the pilgrims did reverence to the Jetavana monastery, where Gautama had so long dwelt and taught, and to the stupas of his disciples, Såriputra, Maudgalåyana (Moggallåna), and Mahå-Kåsyapa (Kassapa). But when the king visited the stupa of Vakkula, he gave only one copper coin, inasmuch as Vakkula had met with few obstacles in the path of holiness, and had done little good to his fellow creatures. At the stupa of Ånanda, the faithful attendant of Gautama, the royal gift amounted to six million gold pieces. ------------ 1. At the first Council, held shortly after the Buddha’s parinibbåna in Råjagaha under the presidency of Mahå Kassapa, the collection of the Dhamma and the Vinaya (Book of Discipline for the monks) was established. At the second Council, held one century later at Vesali, the teaching of heretical views was refuted. At the third council the “Points of Controversy” (Kathåvatthu), as we have it in its present form, was established as a treatise against schismatic groups and incorporated into the Abhidhamma. 2. Another source states that it was his younger brother. 3. See: Vincent Arthur Smith, “Asoka”. Low Price Publication, New Delhi, 1994. 4. Moggaliputta-Tissa’s name is given in the northern texts as Upagupta. ******* Nina. #74859 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 6:03 am Subject: Conditions, Ch 9, no 5. nilovg Dear friends, By the development of satipatthåna we can prove that our life consists of nåma and rúpa arising because of conditions. Nåma experiences an object and rúpa does not know anything. When seeing appears there can be awareness of its characteristic so that it can be understood as a reality, an element which experiences visible object through the eye-door. When there is awareness of the reality which appears through the eyedoor, it can be understood as an element which does not know anything, which does not see, feel or remember. There are realities appearing through the six doors time and again and when right understanding develops nåma can be known as nåma and rúpa as rúpa, and in this way their different characteristics will be distinguished. When we are eating there is flavour and tasting, when we touch something there is tangible object and body-consciousness. When these realities appear and there is awareness of them there is no need to think of sense-bases, sense objects or any other terms we have learnt from the texts. When there is awareness of the characteristic of one reality at a time we will be able to verify the truth that all phenomena which appear are dhammas devoid of self. We read in the “Kindred Sayings” (IV, Salåyatana-vagga, Part I, First Fifty, § 1): Thus have I heard: - The Exalted One was once staying near Såvatthí, at Jeta Grove, in Anåthapindika’s Park. Then the Exalted One addressed the monks, saying: - “Monks.” “Lord,” responded those monks to the Exalted One. The Exalted One spoke thus: - “The eye, monks, is impermanent. What is impermanent, that is dukkha. What is dukkha, that is void of the self. What is void of the self, that is not mine; I am not it; it is not my self. That is how it is to be regarded with perfect insight of what it really is. The ear... the nose... the tongue... the body... the mind is impermanent. What is impermanent, that is dukkha. What is dukkha, that is void of the self. What is void of the self, that is not mine; I am not it; it is not my self. That is how it is to be regarded with perfect insight of what it really is. So seeing, monks, the well- taught ariyan disciple is repelled by eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, and mind. Being repelled by them, he lusts not for them. Not lusting, he is set free. In this freedom comes insight of being free. Thus he realizes: - “Rebirth is destroyed, lived is the righteous life, done is the task, for life in these conditions there is no hereafter.” ******* Nina. #74860 From: "nidive" Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 6:20 am Subject: Not Hard to Accept (Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Walking) nidive Hi Scott, > Scott: Why would you ask this? Because if you are aware of the underlying cause of your anger, it would be easier to recognise it earlier before your anger goes out of control. Such basic mindfulness of your own thoughts and feelings can be very useful. But its OK if you disagree because of your belief in no control. Swee Boon #74861 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 2:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Conditions, Ch 8, no 8. upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 8/2/07 12:43:42 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: > The terminology can be dangerous, though. Concepts never take on a > power of their own. We hear authors saying that their characters take > on a power of their own and begin to write the book etc. But that's > just talk. There are no real instances in which the whole becomes > greater than the sum of its parts. Concepts are always just concepts. > ========================== I agree with you on this, Ken. The only sense, and it is a valid one, in which the whole becomes greater than the sum of its parts is that viewing the whole as an aggregrate of conditions, a dhamma may depend for its occurrence on the multiplicity of conditions. (No dhamma arises from a single condition, but requires the coming together of a group of requisite conditions. The aggregation/multiplicity is essential in that case.) A useful conventional analogy is that of water: Neither groups of (only) hydrogen molecules or (only) oxygen molecules or (only) HO molecules, will result in water. Hydrogen will burn and explode, and oxygen will support human life by breath but give no suppport by taking into the stomach. Water, OTOH, will quench fire, snuff out life by stifling breath (i.e., by drowning), but support life by taking into the stomach. The point of the analogy is that aggregation is important to effect. As for dhammas, as I see it, only they serve as conditions, not concept, but they do it "cooperatively", and we then conventionally speak of this by saying that a certain conglomerate (thought of as a "thing") serves as condition. So, we say that food sustains life, whereas it is actually various rupas, in aggregate, that do so. With metta, Howard #74862 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 7:02 am Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge scottduncan2 Dear Tep, Thanks for the sutta reference: Visakha: "Now what is concentration, what qualities are its themes, what qualities are its requisites, and what is its development?" Sister Dhammadinna: "Singleness of mind is concentration; the four frames of reference are its themes; the four right exertions are its requisites; and any cultivation, development, & pursuit of these qualities is its development." [MN 44 ] Scott: I'll add (for comparison): Bodhi/~Naa.namoli: "Lady, what is concentration? What is the basis for concentration? What is the equipment for concentration? What is the development of concentration? Unification of mind, friend Visaakha, is concentration; the four foundations of mindfulness are the basis of concentration; the four right kinds of striving are the equipment of concentration; the repetition, development, and cultivation of these same states is the development of concentration therein." Note 464 "The four foundtions of mindfulness are the basis of concentration (samaadhinimitta) in the sense of being its condition (MA). Here it would seem incorrect to translate nimitta as 'sign', in the sense of either distinctive mark or object..." Scott: And the Paa.li: "Katamo panayye samaadhi. Katamo samaadhinimittaa, katamo samaadhiparikkhaaraa, katamaa samaadhibhaavanaati? "Yaa kho aavuso visaakha cittassa ekaggataa aya.m samaadhi. Cattaaro satipa.t.thaanaa samaadhinimittaa. Cattaaro sammappadhaanaa samaadhiparikkhaaraa. Yaa tesa.myeva dhammaana.m aasevanaa bhaavanaa bahuliikamma.m, aya.m tattha samaadhi bhaavanaati." T: "Here is the sutta reference that you asked for. Please note that 'theme' is the translation of 'nimitta'." Scott: There seems a big difference between 'qualities of its themes' and 'basis', comparing the two translations. Would that be Thanissaro Bhikkhu who translated the text you've supplied? Nimitta seems to have a few senses. Here, in the PTS PED, it is given: "...outward appearance, mark, characteristic, attribute, phenomenon..." and "...ground, reason, condition..." Scott: This seems to conform to the rationale provided by Bh. Bodhi for his choice in translating. The meaning of samaadhinimitta, then, I'm guessing, would be something like 'basis' or 'condition for' or 'reason' for concentration. I suppose I can see, in 'qualities' of its 'themes' an attempt to convey that, with regards the four satipa.t.thaana, concentration arises as a function of the nimitta of the object of sati and pa~n~na (of a given strength). And by this I am meaning to suggest (corrections please) that at tender stages of development, only nimitta is perceived. So, I would say that satipa.t.thaana is not 'samaadhinimitta', as I think you put it (correct me if I've got this wrong), but that the basis for the concentration that arises with satipa.t.thaana is the nimitta of the objects of satipa.t.thaana. T: "Sorry about the confusion. Let me redo it. I am not sure how you may apply the principles of paramattha-dhammas to explain the development process in AN 10.61, i.e. from (1.) association with noble disciples to (10.) release via the other 8 dhammas : (2.)good listening to the teachings, (3.)appropriate attention, (4.)mindfulness & alertness, (5.)restraint of the senses, (6.)three forms of right conduct, (7.) four frames of reference, (8.) seven factors for awakening, (9.) clear knowing." Scott: I'm no expert, but it appears to me that when it is said that the reduction of things goes no further than to the level of paramattha dhammas - things with specific characteristics and all essentially anicca, dukkha, and anatta - and that this bottom line is what there is to the world, then there is no room to have to talk about people doing anything. It is dhammas that develop, along the lines of the process indicated above and dhammas that 'perform' these functions. It has often been said that these paramattha dhammas are 'theoretical' and this seems to be meant to indicate that they are, therefore, not real in the sense of being actual. The argument often goes that they are only thought about or some such. To me, when the paramattha dhammas are taught, it means that these are the only real elements in existence. These, not people or conventional things (concepts) are what make the world and its perceivers. That 'I' can't see them as such only reflects the lack of development inherent in the dhammas themselves and is in no way proof of their lack of existence. How do you see this, since you asked the question? Sincerely, Scott. #74863 From: "nidive" Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 7:12 am Subject: Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness nidive Hi Jon, > As I said, I read this as explaining why the person being spoken of > by the Buddha must be one who has become a recluse and is not > living among other people. So whether monk or layperson, the same > considerations apply. I disagree. Firstly, no such requirement was spelt out explicitly by the Buddha in the sutta. He never singled out breathing meditation as a special case in DN 22. Secondly, the commentary said the main reason for going to the forest or to an empty place is due to sound pollution, which is the major distraction for breathing meditation. ------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/soma/wayof.html Because the subject of meditation of mindfulness on in-and-out- breathing is not easy to accomplish without leaving the neighbourhood of a village, owing to sound, which is a thorn to absorption; ------------------------------------------------------------------- A soundproof room with just yourself alone is also a suitable "abode" for breathing meditation. > I meant the difficulty in making the change from the life of one > who, in the words of the commentary, dwells on visual and other > objects (i.e., and ordinary monk's or layfollower's life) to the > life of a recluse (whether as an ordained monk or not) devoted to > the development of samatha (and satipatthana). If so, how can breathing meditation ONLY be for those who are already "well advanced in the development of samatha"? Someone whose mind jumps around like a monkey around the five sense bases cannot be too well advanced in the development of samatha. > If in the anapanasati section of DN 22 the Buddha is addressing > someone who has until that time not developed samatha or vipassana > at all, then the anapanasati section contains the complete path > from start to finish. Is that how you see it? Breathing meditation is capable of encompassing all four frames of reference. In DN 22, the Buddha only focused on ONE frame of reference regarding breathing meditation, ie. remaining focused on the body in and of itself. In MN 118, the Buddha expanded breathing meditation to encompass all four frames of reference. I shall not quote MN 118. It's too long. The URL is here: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.118.than.html Breathing meditation as a complete path from start to finish encompassing all four frames of reference is expounded by the Buddha in MN 118. > My reading. You are free to disagree ;-)). Do you have any > particular comments? For example, does my reading seem > inconsistent with the wording of the sutta? I think so. Swee Boon #74864 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 7:24 am Subject: Not Hard to Accept (Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Walking) scottduncan2 Dear Swee Boon, Thanks for the clarification: SB: "Because if you are aware of the underlying cause of your anger, it would be easier to recognise it earlier before your anger goes out of control. Such basic mindfulness of your own thoughts and feelings can be very useful. But its OK if you disagree because of your belief in no control." Scott: Alright, buddy. That's it. Now I'm mad at you! I'm really losing it, man! I'm out of control! Drop your gloves 'cause its go time! And its because you keep taking potshots. Cut it out, boyo. ;-) I'll say this, driven to the brink as I am: The underlying causes of my anger, known perfectly well to me, are, of course, none of your business. It was the rudeness of the question, and the fact that it was perfectly clear that you didn't mean to discuss with me but just to poke the hornet's nest, that prompted my question. As far as the pedantic advice about the timing with which one recognises one's anger, please spare me such as well. I've worked as a psychotherapist for twenty years and don't have a thing to learn from you about a timely recognition of feeling and thoughts - it is the nature of the work I do everyday. And by the way, I couldn't care less about the work I do everyday, I'm just telling you. (Also, please recall past references I've made to myself as the 'most arrogant person I know' - here's a great example. You can print it off and frame it.) I do have a lot to learn regarding the Dhamma vis-a-vis satipa.t.thaana. This is not the mere recognition and labelling of feelings by 'a person' in his or her head. That would just be thinking. As you know, the recognition is by sati and pa~n~naa. If you can discuss something of this, say, in the fashion you are with Jon, please feel free. A higher level of discourse would be much appreciated. Otherwise, spare me, if you would, the opportunity for further discourse of this nature. Thanks. Sincerely, Scott. #74865 From: "nidive" Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 7:32 am Subject: Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness II nidive Hi Jon, > These are all accomplishments, rather than a technique of training, > in my view. How do you see it? I prefer to focus on the words "direct path" as spoken by the Buddha. There is no accomplishment without "doing" the path. > Yes, significant. But I read 'practicing' in the context as > meaning something like 'able to attain' rather than 'trying to > follow a given technique/practice'. As in 'a doctor practising > medicine' rather than 'a person practising the piano'. How do you > see it? Well, I see an arahant as "a doctor practising medicine" and learners as "persons practising the piano". Swee Boon #74866 From: "nidive" Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 7:53 am Subject: Not Hard to Accept (Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Walking) nidive Hi Scott, Just a reminder: the anger is all yours, not mine. Peace. Swee Boon #74867 From: Ken O Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 8:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: satipatthana as island of refuge ashkenn2k Hi Scott and Tep just to add on what is concentration In AN (IV, 41), Fourfold Development of Concentration << There is development of concentration that leads to a pleasant dwelling in this very life, there is a development of concentration that leads to obtaining knowledge and vision, thre is a development of concentration that leads to mindfullness and clear comprehension; and there is development of concentration that leads to the destruction of the taints. And what monks, is the development of concentration that leads to a pleasant dwelling in this very life? Here secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, a monk enters and dwells in the first jhana, which is accompanied by thought and examination, with rapture and happiness born of seclusion. With the subsiding of thought and examination, he enters and dwells on the second jhana, which has internal confidence and unification of mind...........................(till the fourth jhana). This is called the development of concentration that leads to a pleasant dwelling in this very life. .(the description of the other two) . And what is the development of concentration that leads to the destruction of the taints? Here a monk dwells contemplating rise and fall in the five aggregates subject to clinging: “Such is form, such its arising, such its pass away; such is feeling...such is perception...such are volitional formations...such is consciousness, such its arising, such its passing away.” This is the development of concentration that leads to the destruction of the taints. >> Cheers Ken O #74868 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 9:05 am Subject: Not Hard to Accept (Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Walking) scottduncan2 Dear Swee Boon, Regarding: SB: "Just a reminder: the anger is all yours, not mine." Scott: Of course, its never as simple as boiling it all down to a comfortable aphorism. Take the case of the mundane concept known as 'passive aggression'. I'll directly site the style of interaction exemplified in the above as a case in point. This is what can be labelled as a passive-aggressive response, especially when the recent posts are looked at in sequence. Let's imagine that someone feels slighted and angry. Let's say that this anger arises conditioned by the idea of a certain person. Let's call this, in conventional terms, 'holding a grudge'. Now, suppose there are others dhammas in the mix, dhammas which preclude a simple awareness of this anger which arises again and again due to these conditions. Let's say that a given person has an idea, based in a belief in self, that he or she is or ought to be a virtuous person, without anger. Let's say this thought is brought to mind each time anger arises, and precludes even a mundane awareness of the feeling. Let's say that the person habitually acts, based on thoughts about how virtuous people ought to act, in ways that convince him or her that there is no anger, only virtue. This will not preclude the fact that, in this case, the actions are still rooted in dosa, no matter how, in a formal way, they appear to be virtuous. This proves the point that not all that glitters is gold. Now, I am aware that I have been direct with you in the past regarding what I think is a smug style of pseudo-teaching that I, as an arrogant bastard, don't appreciate. I think you are still angry about this, and hence your penchant for taking pot shots. I'll bet that this directness effected you. Ever since I said this, awhile ago, I've noted that you relate to me in the fashion I commented on in the last post. You might not think that this is anger, and its not for me to say, but you have an opinion on the matter. This goes to the heart of satipa.t.thaana, I think. It is not so easy as one might think. There is no imposing sati or pa~n~naa on things. There are very subtle and imperceptible roots to actions that are present despite what self-view and thinking imagine. As for us, let's mind our own business for awhile, shall we? Unless of course you have something of substance to say. There, I did it again. I'll apologise when it is a real apology, and not just a pseudo-I-want-to-look-all-virtuous sort of act, which, of course, it would be if I faked it now. Sincerely, Scott. P.S. If Jon or Sarah feel this is totally off, I hope they will tell me on the open forum. I'm the guest here, after all. Then all of us can look at the vicissitudes of interactional styles as part of the day-to-day process of the list. #74869 From: "dhammasaro" Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 11:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Angry Monks dhammasaro --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: Please forgive the delay in replying. Seldom online. Try to be online more freqently. Please note, portions are deleted. > S: I'm not in Bangkok unless visiting, so best to contact Sukin off- list when you know you'll be there. He'll help arrange for you to visit the Foundation to join the English discussion. Let us all know too, just in case anyone else is visiting at the time. > .... Chuck: I will fly to Bangkok on 18 August. Arrive at my condo on early morning 20 August. Will contact Sukin. > ... > S: Talking about Texas, I believe Tep also lives in Texas. Also another friend of ours, Pinna, who spends half her time in Bangkok. > .... Chuck: Yes, I met Tep some years ago on anther Buddhist forum. Last year after completing my "rains retreat" at Wat Sangha Bucha near my home, my nephew drove me around Texas visiting most of the Thai wats. I could not locate Tep's phone number or address as I travelled withing 100 miles of his home. Perhaps, I will be fortunate to meet Pinna at the "foundation." > .... > Another of our mostly-lurking members here, Betty, has a son who is > ordained and living at Wat Bovoranives (half American, half Thai). > .... Chuck: I met one such monk. I forget his name. He is probably between late 20's to late 30's and six foot or more tall. I usually see him when I would spend a weekly 12-hour shift with His Holiness, The Supreme Patriarch. > .... > > Sarah: I'm sure many would be interested to hear more about it all if you can be bothered. > > > > Chuck: Thank you. No bother at all. Sarah, you and members please help me with questions so I may interestingly describe my experiences. > .... > S: Do you speak, read and write Thai now? If so, you have access to Thai Tipitaka and Thai audio discussions. > .... Chuck: No to all three questions! Do have access to both English and Thai Tipitaka and audio discussions. However, my English access to the Abhidhamma portion of the Tipitaka is almost non-existant. > .... > Did you mention before that your wife was also going to Thailand to ordain or am I confused? ... Chuck: No she has no plans. Although, she is very devout. > ... > As you can see, 'the practise' and the understanding of the Dhamma is highly controversial here. How do you see the path? How do understand pariyatti and pa.tipatti? ... Chuck: I will answer separately as it may be rather lengthly. .... > What did you find most useful about ordaining for this time? > Chuck: More opportunities to discuss the Teachings with English speaking monks. Also, the access to english speaking monks to translate with Thai only speaking monks. > I hope others will ask you further questions!! > Chuck: Yes, I do too. .... > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======= > metta (maitri), Chuck #74870 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 3:36 pm Subject: Re: Sammadi.t.thi Corner scottduncan2 Dear All, SN 12,15(5) Kaccaanagotta - Bh. Bodhi, tr. (Kaccaanagottasutta.m) Note 30. "Spk: The origin of the world: the production of the world of formations. There is no notion of nonexistence in regard to the world: there does not occur in him the annihilationist view that might arise in regard to phenomena produced and made manifest in the world of formations, holding, 'They do not exist.' Spk-p.t: The annihilationist view might arise in regard to the world of formations thus: 'On account of the annihilation and perishing of beings right where they are, there is no persisting being or phenomenon.' It also includes the wrong view, having those formations as its object, which holds: 'There are no beings who are reborn.' That view does not occur in him; for one seeing with right understanding the production and origination of the world of formations in dependence on such diverse conditions as kamma, ignorance, craving, etc., that annihilationist view does not occur, since one sees the uninterrupted production of formations. "Spk: The cessation of the world: the dissolution (bha"nga) of formations. There is no notion of existence in regard to the world: There does not occur in him the eternalist view which might arise in regard to phenomena produced and made manifest in the world of formations, holding 'They exist.' Spk-p.t: The eternalist view might arise in regard to the world of formations, taking it to exist at all times, owing to the apprehension of identity in the uninterrupted continuum occuring in a cause-effect relationship. But that view does not occur in him; because he sees the cessation of the successively arisen phenomena, the eternalist view does not occur. "Spk: Further, 'the origin of the world' is direct-order conditionality (anuloma-paccayaakaara); 'the cessation of the world,' reverse-order conditionality (pa.tiloma-paccayaakaara). [Spk-P.t: 'Direct-order conditionality' is the conditioning efficiency of the conditions in relation to their own effects; 'reverse-order conditionality' is the cessation of the effects through the cessation of their respective causes.] For in seeing the dependency of the world, when one sees the nontermination of conditionally arisen phenomena owing to the nontermination of their conditions, the annihilationist view, which might otherwise arise, does not occur. And in seeing the cessation of conditions, when one sees the cessation of the conditionally arisen phenomena owing to the cessation of their conditions, the eternalist view, which might otherwise arise, does not occur." Sincerely, Scott. #74871 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 1:04 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sammadi.t.thi Corner upasaka_howard Hi, Scott (and all) - In a message dated 8/2/07 6:38:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: > Dear All, > > SN 12,15(5) Kaccaanagotta - Bh. Bodhi, tr. (Kaccaanagottasutta.m) > > Note 30. "Spk: The origin of the world: the production of the world of > formations. There is no notion of nonexistence in regard to the > world: there does not occur in him the annihilationist view that might > arise in regard to phenomena produced and made manifest in the world > of formations, holding, 'They do not exist.' Spk-p.t: The > annihilationist view might arise in regard to the world of formations > thus: 'On account of the annihilation and perishing of beings right > where they are, there is no persisting being or phenomenon.' It also > includes the wrong view, having those formations as its object, which > holds: 'There are no beings who are reborn.' That view does not occur > in him; for one seeing with right understanding the production and > origination of the world of formations in dependence on such diverse > conditions as kamma, ignorance, craving, etc., that annihilationist > view does not occur, since one sees the uninterrupted production of > formations. > > "Spk: The cessation of the world: the dissolution (bha"nga) of > formations. There is no notion of existence in regard to the world: > There does not occur in him the eternalist view which might arise in > regard to phenomena produced and made manifest in the world of > formations, holding 'They exist.' Spk-p.t: The eternalist view might > arise in regard to the world of formations, taking it to exist at all > times, owing to the apprehension of identity in the uninterrupted > continuum occuring in a cause-effect relationship. But that view does > not occur in him; because he sees the cessation of the successively > arisen phenomena, the eternalist view does not occur. > > "Spk: Further, 'the origin of the world' is direct-order > conditionality (anuloma-paccayaakaara); 'the cessation of the world,' > reverse-order conditionality (pa.tiloma-paccayaakaara). [Spk-P.t: > 'Direct-order conditionality' is the conditioning efficiency of the > conditions in relation to their own effects; 'reverse-order > conditionality' is the cessation of the effects through the cessation > of their respective causes.] For in seeing the dependency of the > world, when one sees the nontermination of conditionally arisen > phenomena owing to the nontermination of their conditions, the > annihilationist view, which might otherwise arise, does not occur. > And in seeing the cessation of conditions, when one sees the cessation > of the conditionally arisen phenomena owing to the cessation of their > conditions, the eternalist view, which might otherwise arise, does not > occur." > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > ========================== This strikes me as reasonable and useful commentary on this sutta. One line, though, speaking of annihilationist view, particularly caught my attention. It goes as follows: <> This commentary is describing 'There are no beings who are reborn.' as "wrong view". Is there anyone here who has utmost confidence in all commentarial material and who also views pa~n~natti as having *zero* reality to them not made uncomfortable by this? I, myself, don't view pa~n~natti as fully unreal and mere imagination. I think of them as inheriting a derivative, imputed reality based on the extent to which they represent an aggregate of coherently interrelated paramattha dhammas. Persons, for example, are not utterly unreal but have a derivative reality based on the interrelated elements of the five khandhas. Those underlying dhammas have comparatively primary and direct reality to them, though they are still, IMO, unreal as compared to nibbana, the one and only unconditioned reality. With metta, Howard #74872 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 5:33 pm Subject: thank you, once again nichiconn Dear Nina and Lodewijk, (All) Even the cover of the new book is beautiful. It might be something of a meditation manual in it's own right. There, the tree on the cover. The lecturer's name like fallen leaves or shade and what stands out is the roots of the tree: Generosity, Morality... well, you know: The Perfections Leading to Enlightenment. No Nina, no Lodewijk... not on the face of it anyway & under the first cover, only Nina. But we can hear Mr Lodewijk & Mrs Tom all the way from the Westheimer's net! These are miraculous things. And we're spreading out the cloth, gratitude make way for grub! A spot for Alan, a seat for Kom. Toasting from Dispeller Ch4, as quoted herein, perfections 67: "...the Truth of the Path has the characteristic of outlet, its function is to abandon defilements, it manifests itself as emergence..." Jon (is that an echo or a chorus of ants once heard on DSGaudio?) cheers RobK and others, on p131, in a discussion of words like VOW's, "to non-returning!" Doing Some Good. peace, connie. #74873 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 6:24 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sammadi.t.thi Corner scottduncan2 Dear Howard, Thanks for the reply: H: "...One line, though, speaking of annihilationist view, particularly caught my attention. It goes as follows: <>..." Scott: I found the Paa.li for the phrase in question: "Natthi sattaa opapaatikaa" ti paavattamaanaapi michadi.t.thi tathaapavattasa"nkaaraamma.naava. From the PTS PED: "Opapaatika (adj.) [fr. upapatti; the BSk. form is a curious distortion of the P. form, viz. aupapaaduka...arisen or reborn without visible cause (i. e. without parents), spontaneous rebirth...apparitional rebirth..." Scott: I think the wrong view in question is that which states that there is no spontaneous or apparitional rebirth - as, for example, in Deva realms. Corrections welcome. Sincerely, Scott. #74874 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 7:10 pm Subject: Re: thank you, once again scottduncan2 Dear connie, Just a thought: c: "...It might be something of a meditation manual in it's own right..." Scott: I had the same thought. The concluding paragraph of the book: "The more we understand the Dhamma in detail, the more will we be inclined to practise the Dhamma. Formerly we may have thought that we could not practise the perfections, that they were beyond our reach. However, if we see the benefit of each of the perfections, and if we gradually develop them, they will eventually become accomplished. We can verify for ourselves that listening to the Dhamma and studying it is of the utmost benefit. It will enable us to apply the Dhamma in our daily lives, to develop satipa.t.thaana together with all the perfections." Scott: No reply required, connie, this is just an addendum... Sincerely, Scott. #74875 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 7:29 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: satipatthana as island of refuge scottduncan2 Dear Ken O, Regarding: K: "just to add on what is concentration In AN (IV, 41), Fourfold Development of Concentration << There is development of concentration that leads to a pleasant dwelling in this very life, there is a development of concentration that leads to obtaining knowledge and vision, thre is a development of concentration that leads to mindfullness and clear comprehension; and there is development of concentration that leads to the destruction of the taints...And what is the development of concentration that leads to the destruction of the taints? Here a monk dwells contemplating rise and fall in the five aggregates subject to clinging: �Such is form, such its arising, such its pass away; such is feeling...such is perception...such are volitional formations...such is consciousness, such its arising, such its passing away.� This is the development of concentration that leads to the destruction of the taints. >>" Scott: Thank you. A good sutta quote. Sincerely, Scott. #74876 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 3:30 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sammadi.t.thi Corner upasaka_howard Hi, Scott - In a message dated 8/2/07 9:36:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: > Dear Howard, > > Thanks for the reply: > > H: "...One line, though, speaking of annihilationist view, > particularly caught my attention. It goes as follows: < includes the wrong view, having those formations as its object, which > holds: 'There are no beings who are reborn.' >>..." > > Scott: I found the Paa.li for the phrase in question: > > "Natthi sattaa opapaatikaa" ti paavattamaanaapi michadi.t.thi > tathaapavattasa"nkaaraamma.naava. > > From the PTS PED: > > "Opapaatika (adj.) [fr. upapatti; the BSk. form is a curious > distortion of the P. form, viz. aupapaaduka...arisen or reborn without > visible cause (i. e. without parents), spontaneous > rebirth...apparitional rebirth..." > > Scott: I think the wrong view in question is that which states that > there is no spontaneous or apparitional rebirth - as, for example, in > Deva realms. > > Corrections welcome. > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > =========================== Thanks for this, Scott. An amazing difference in translation isn't it?! With metta, Howard #74877 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 8:07 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: satipatthana as island of refuge kenhowardau Hi Nina (and Howard), ----------- <. . .> N: This reminds me of a conversation I had with Lodewijk after he read K.K. again 2. He said that when people hear: nobody can do anything, they may become confused. I can understand that, people may think of laziness, or they feel hopeless. ------------ I suppose that is true, Nina, but are we likely to encounter anyone like that at DSG? Everyone here has heard anatta explained in full. When someone says there is "no person" who practises satipatthana none of us is going to be dismayed or disheartened by that. -------------------- N: > It means that when there are no conditions, sati cannot arise. Listening and considering what we hear are the right conditions, but even the fact that we listen to the good friend in Dhamma is conditioned. When Kh Sujin says: nobody can do anything, she does not deny conditions, but it is meant as a reminder to have the right attitude. -------------------- Yes, and it is always a good reminder. I can't think of any situation where it would not be helpful to hear that. ------------------------------ N: > When we want to 'do' anything to have more sati this is clinging and counteractive. It is of no use to think of doing anything to have sati. There was listening in the past and in that way right understanding is accumulated. It can arise again and thus it can grow. Let us forget about doing, cetasikas do their own work. They are not persons who act (little actors), mere conditioned dhammas. ------------------------------- I won't argue if you say dhammas are not persons who act. However, whenever Howard says they are not 'little actors' I always argue. :-) That, as I see it, is a different matter. Dhammas perform functions, and so they can be called performers of functions. If that makes them little actors then so be it. There is no implication of an abiding self. Ken H #74878 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 8:11 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sammadi.t.thi Corner scottduncan2 Dear Howard, Regarding: H: "Thanks for this, Scott. An amazing difference in translation isn't it?!" Scott: Yes, but please don't take my word for it - I'd rather wait for someone else to confirm or correct what I submitted to you. Its a tricky business though, eh? Sincerely, Scott. #74879 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 8:20 pm Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge indriyabala Hi Scott, - Thank you very much for the Pali text and for making the effort to write the long reply that is valuable. At the end of it you asked, "How do you see this, since you asked the question?". I am going to take that question into consideration while writing my reply below. Scott(message #74862): So, I would say that satipa.t.thaana is not 'samaadhinimitta', as I think you put it (correct me if I've got this wrong), but that the basis for the concentration that arises with satipa.t.thaana is the nimitta of the objects of satipa.t.thaana. T: I am not sure why you think that way. In order to communicate better, please allow me to step back to the Pali text and the corresponding two translations for a second : 'Yaa kho aavuso visaakha cittassa ekaggataa aya.m samaadhi. Cattaaro satipa.t.thaanaa samaadhinimittaa. ...' Bh Bodhi: Unification of mind, friend Visaakha, is concentration; the four foundations of mindfulness are the basis of concentration Thanissaro Bh: Singleness of mind is concentration; the four frames of reference are its themes. I think the meaning of satipatthaana as the basis/support/ground/reason/condition for samaadhi to arise is compatible with my understanding that also allows another meaning of satipatthaana as the sign/outward appearance/mark/phenomenon that comes before the arising of samaadhi. For example, the purification of virtues(sila) is the nimitta (first meaning) for the arising of the magga (see the Samyutta Nikaya Maha vaggo, Maggasamyutta). The Buddha also called the colorful lights on the horizon as the "nimitta" before the arising of the Sun. In this case nimitta means sign/outward appearance/mark/phenomenon. I guess Ven. Thanissaro's themes in MN 44 are in the second category. Ven. Thanissaro Bh also defines meditation themes in his article, "Basic Themes", as the forty kammatthaanas : ten recollections; ten foul objects; ten kasinas; four sublime abidings; four formless absorptions; one resolution into elements; and one perception of the filthiness of food. So, it is clear that he knows that nimitta has several meanings. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai/lee/themes.html .............. >T: I am not sure how you may apply the principles of paramattha- dhammas to explain the development process in AN 10.61, ... Scott: .. it appears to me that when it is said that the reduction of things goes no further than to the level of paramattha dhammas - things with specific characteristics and all essentially anicca, dukkha, and anatta - and that this bottom line is what there is to the world, then there is no room to have to talk about people doing anything. T: I also see the same truth -- i.e. within the domain of the three characteristics regarding khandhas, namaruupa, and dhatus "there is no room to have to talk about people doing anything". This is the same as saying: Sabba dhamma anatta. Sabba sankhara aniccam. Scott: It is dhammas that develop, along the lines of the process indicated above and dhammas that 'perform' these functions. T: How about naama & rupa or khandhas perform the sequential development process of the ten dhammas? Scott: It has often been said that these paramattha dhammas are 'theoretical' and this seems to be meant to indicate that they are, therefore, not real in the sense of being actual. The argument often goes that they are only thought about or some such. To me, when the paramattha dhammas are taught, it means that these are the only real elements in existence. These, not people or conventional things (concepts) are what make the world and its perceivers. That 'I' can't see them as such only reflects the lack of development inherent in the dhammas themselves and is in no way proof of their lack of existence. T: Well said, Scott. I agree with you. Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Dear Tep, > > Thanks for the sutta reference: > > Visakha: "Now what is concentration, what qualities are its themes, > what qualities are its requisites, and what is its development?" > > Sister Dhammadinna: "Singleness of mind is concentration; the four > frames of reference are its themes; the four right exertions are its > requisites; and any cultivation, development, & pursuit of these > qualities is its development." [MN 44 ] > #74880 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 8:51 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Conditions, Ch 8, no 8. kenhowardau Hi Howard, ----- <. . .> KH: > > There are no real instances in which the whole becomes greater than the sum of its parts. Concepts are always just concepts. > > H: > I agree with you on this, Ken. The only sense, and it is a valid one, in which the whole becomes greater than the sum of its parts is that viewing the whole as an aggregate of conditions, a dhamma may depend for its occurrence on the multiplicity of conditions. (No dhamma arises from a single condition, but requires the coming together of a group of requisite conditions. The aggregation/multiplicity is essential in that case.) ------------- I haven't thought about it that way. Are you saying that the entirety of conditions (that are active at any one time) takes on a reality of its own? If so, what would that reality be? I don't believe it would be a dhamma (or dhammas). As I understand them, dhammas are quite distinct from the conditions on which they depend. ------------------- H: > A useful conventional analogy is that of water: Neither groups of (only) hydrogen molecules or (only) oxygen molecules or (only) HO molecules, will result in water. Hydrogen will burn and explode, and oxygen will support human life by breath but give no suppport by taking into the stomach. Water, OTOH, will quench fire, snuff out life by stifling breath (i.e., by drowning), but support life by taking into the stomach. The point of the analogy is that aggregation is important to effect. --------------------- Yes. Another example is, of course, the proverbial chariot. The parts have to be correctly assembled before it can be said to exist. And, of course, when the five khandhas are correctly assembled, a being is said to exist. As I was saying, however, I am not sure about your example. What, are you saying, exists when conditions (as distinct from dhammas) are correctly assembled? -------------------------- HL > As for dhammas, as I see it, only they serve as conditions, not concept, but they do it "cooperatively", and we then conventionally speak of this by saying that a certain conglomerate (thought of as a "thing") serves as condition. --------------------------- Yes, with regard to object condition and NDS condition, we can sometimes say that a concept serves as condition. I prefer to avoid that terminology because it could be misused. It could be taken to mean that there is no ultimate difference between concepts and realities. ------------ H: > So, we say that food sustains life, whereas it is actually various rupas, in aggregate, that do so. ------------ I suppose we can say that a loaf of bread (for example) consists of various rupas in aggregate. We can also say that about the human body. I don't find it particularly helpful though, do you? IMHO, it is a mixture of terminologies that we can do without. The rupa known as nutrition is the actual sustainer of the body (other rupas), isn't it? As far as I know, there is no need to conceive of an aggregate of rupas. (?) Ken H #74881 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 9:09 pm Subject: Re: thank you, once again nichiconn Perfect addendum, dear Scott. As far as claiming to be anyone's student goes, I'm afraid none would care for my vanity. "A student of Mine?! That's a student of Self." The big 'I, Con'. Don't think you're the only arrogant one amonst us, beastly. I happen to have been born Cocky. Err, err, err! O, but I've forgotten again. I'm not talking to you. Sorry! c. ps. any smilies will have disappeared by the time you see this. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] #74882 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 5:44 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Conditions, Ch 8, no 8. upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 8/2/07 11:51:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > ----- > <. . .> > KH: >>There are no real instances in which the whole becomes > greater than the sum of its parts. Concepts are always just concepts. > >> > > H: >I agree with you on this, Ken. The only sense, and it is a valid > one, in which the whole becomes greater than the sum of its parts is > that viewing the whole as an aggregate of conditions, a dhamma may > depend for its occurrence on the multiplicity of conditions. (No > dhamma arises from a single condition, but requires the coming > together of a group of requisite conditions. The > aggregation/multiplicity is essential in that case.) > ------------- > > I haven't thought about it that way. Are you saying that the entirety > of conditions (that are active at any one time) takes on a reality > of its own? If so, what would that reality be? I don't believe it > would be a dhamma (or dhammas). As I understand them, dhammas are > quite distinct from the conditions on which they depend. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: I'm not saying that the aggregate is a dhamma or a thing-of-its-own, but it does take on a conditionality/functionality that is not that of any single dhamma that is part of the aggregate. In that sense, in part, there is an effective reality to the aggregate. -------------------------------------------- > > ------------------- > H: >A useful conventional analogy is that of water: Neither groups of > (only) hydrogen molecules or (only) oxygen molecules or (only) HO > molecules, will result in water. Hydrogen will burn and explode, and > oxygen will support human life by breath but give no suppport by > taking into the stomach. Water, OTOH, will quench fire, snuff out > life by stifling breath (i.e., by drowning), but support life by > taking into the stomach. The point of the analogy is that > aggregation is important to effect. > --------------------- > > Yes. Another example is, of course, the proverbial chariot. The parts > have to be correctly assembled before it can be said to exist. ---------------------------------------- Howard: That's true, and it is the functionality that is critical. ---------------------------------------- > > And, of course, when the five khandhas are correctly assembled, a > being is said to exist. ---------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, though that being is not really an entity at all. However, the aggregation of dhammas is required in order for the functionality of "a being" to occur. The dhammas are, in fact, the conditions, but they serve as conditions cooperatively, the multiplicity of conditions being requisite for the result. ------------------------------------------ > > As I was saying, however, I am not sure about your example. What, are > you saying, exists when conditions (as distinct from dhammas) are > correctly assembled? -------------------------------------------- Howard: Actually nothing more than a functionality that would not exist otherwise. But we fall into the error of thinking that there is some conventional entity that acts, imputing such upon the assemblage of dhammas. ------------------------------------------ > > -------------------------- > HL > As for dhammas, as I see it, only they serve > as conditions, not concept, but they do it "cooperatively", and we > then conventionally speak of this by saying that a certain > conglomerate (thought of as a "thing") serves as condition. > --------------------------- > > Yes, with regard to object condition and NDS condition, we can > sometimes say that a concept serves as condition. I prefer to avoid > that terminology because it could be misused. It could be taken to > mean that there is no ultimate difference between concepts and > realities. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: I agree with you. As possible (i.e., subject to being able to carry out normal communication), avoidance of such reificational terminology is certainly best. -------------------------------------------- > > ------------ > H: >So, we say that food sustains life, whereas it is actually > various rupas, in aggregate, that do so. > ------------ > > I suppose we can say that a loaf of bread (for example) consists of > various rupas in aggregate. We can also say that about the human > body. I don't find it particularly helpful though, do you? IMHO, it > is a mixture of terminologies that we can do without. --------------------------------------- Howard: It is odd, and at times very misleading, to mix terminologies. Moreover, I'm not even ceratin that it is proper to think of a loaf of bread as consisting of rupas. I think it is more complicated than that, with the perceived loaf of bread not a "thing" CONSISTING of rupas, but being a concept BASED UPON many perceived rupas, perceived at various times and of varying sorts: sights, smells, touch sensations, and maybe tastes - a mental construct drawing upon and combining a variety of multi-sense-door phenomena. ---------------------------------------- > > The rupa known as nutrition is the actual sustainer of the body > (other rupas), isn't it? As far as I know, there is no need to > conceive of an aggregate of rupas. (?) ------------------------------------------ Howard: Yes, Abhidhamma says so. I don't believe that. ------------------------------------------ > > Ken H > ====================== With metta, Howard #74883 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 10:06 pm Subject: Re: Ro-langs or Vetalas? nichiconn dear colette, ended up at http://www.unm.edu/~rhayes/download.html i saw a few l-o-o-ong sunsets in new mexico once upon a time. but here, this evening, a few titles caught my eye. his sanskrit ones near the bottom: Asvaghosha's Buddhacaritam Chapters 1 and 5. Santideva's Bodhicaryavatara Chapters 1 and 6. and in the middle of the page these two: Nagarjuna's appeal, abridged version of an article published in Journal of Indian Philosophy 22:299-378. (1994) Nagarjuna: Master of Paradox, Mystic or Perpetrator of Fallacies? This paper was read before the Philosophy Department at Smith College in April 2003. You mentioned something about some REDUTIO AD ABSURDUM you wanted to "deal with and find out how Nargajuna did such a splendid job with it." #74690 Meanwhile, I happened to find Sir Charles Eliot's "Hinduism and Buddhism" online* and couldn't help serious laughing (see his Mormom remarks, for ex.) throughout most of the introduction. I think that means it was a joy to read? A quote for you: << After Asvaghosha comes Naagaarjuna who may have flourished any time between 125 and 200 A.D. A legend which makes him live for 300 years is not without significance, for he represents a movement and a school as much as a personality and if he taught in the second century A.D. he cannot have been the _founder_ of Mahayanism. Yet he seems to be the first great name definitely connected with it and the ascription to him of numerous later treatises, though unwarrantable, shows that his authority was sufficient to stamp a work or a doctrine as orthodox Mahayanism. His biographies connect him with the system of idealist or nihilistic metaphysics expounded in the literature (for it is more than a single work) called Praj~naapaaramitaa, with magical practices (by which the power of summoning Bodhisattvas or deities is specially meant) and with the worship of Amitaabha. His teacher Saraha, a foreigner, is said to have been the first who taught this worship in India. In this there may be a kernel of truth but otherwise the extant accounts of Naagaarjuna are too legendary to permit of historical deductions. He was perhaps the first eminent exponent of Mahayanist metaphysics, but the train of thought was not new: it was the result of applying to the external world the same destructive logic which Gotama applied to the soul and the result had considerable analogies to Sankara's version of the Vedanta. Whether in the second century A.D. the leaders of Buddhism already identified themselves with the sorcery which demoralized late Indian Mahayanism may be doubted, but tradition certainly ascribes to Naagaarjuna this corrupting mixture of metaphysics and magic. >> I loved your saying my writing was "filled to the brim with confusion." right on. my confections! conceits. concerns. confessions. consolidated (mis)fortunes? what brings us to the cloak room again anyway? lol... our feathers are divine, dear. i've been reading the PED again. wouldn't you know the last bit i read this morning mentioned Ud5! life's grandeur. my delusions. hallucinations. i'm not so sure we are as familiar as we might think with our own blindgoblinspots. peace, connie. *Eliot: Hinduism and Buddhism, An Historical Sketch in 3 vol's. http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/1/5/2/5/15255/ http://www.gutenberg.org/files/16546/16546.txt http://www.gutenberg.org/files/16847/16847-0.txt #74884 From: "Andrew" Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 10:11 pm Subject: Not Hard to Accept (Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Walking) corvus121 Hi Scott, you arrogant little Dhamma-discusser! :)) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > This goes to the heart of satipa.t.thaana, I think. It is not so easy > as one might think. There is no imposing sati or pa~n~naa on things. > There are very subtle and imperceptible roots to actions that are > present despite what self-view and thinking imagine. How true. And what about this? I recently joined an online discussion forum conducted in a language I have a working knowledge of (but am not fluent in). From time to time, I do experience urges to be sarcastic and "take pot shots" but my language skills are not sufficient for me to follow through with the urges. Hence, I am forced to let the urge subside and I say nothing. Were the discussion in English, I would very likely "give vent". I'm quite happy with this situation. It is teaching me how worthless sarcastic jibes really are. For the moment, I won't translate all this into Abhidhammic terms but could it be that absent or poor language skills can be something of a protection against stronger akusala kamma patha? Now, where is Herman when you need him? Herman had some very novel views about language that I would like to hear him apply to my situation. In the meantime, I reflect on that quote in the Sutta Nipata where the Buddha says that the tongue is like a sharp axe we flap around in our mouths unaware of the damage being done! Best wishes (no faking) Andrew #74885 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 11:22 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] thank you, once again nilovg Dear Connie, ypu present it all in a charming way, dropping names, giving a synopsis the way only you can do this. I am always so glad when people quote parts, it helps me. And we can hear the perfections on audio spoken by Lodewijk. No Nina, no Lodewijk, I am considering a lot perversion of sa~n~naa, also being reminded by Howard's post. I'll write to him. Nina. Op 3-aug-2007, om 2:33 heeft L G SAGE het volgende geschreven: > No Nina, no Lodewijk... not on the face of it anyway & under the > first cover, only Nina. But we can hear Mr Lodewijk & Mrs Tom all > the way from the Westheimer's net! #74886 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 2, 2007 11:27 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: thank you, once again nilovg Dear Connie and Scott, I have been thinking about what Scott wrote about himself, about conceit. But we all have all the time. As Kh Sujin said: 'I am not bothered by my akusala.' Think of it, we would not write any post here, because conceit is behind it very often. No dsg. If we analyse ourselves too much we may have aversion about all our akusala. Or thinking about our aversion or anger. It is gone anyway and not important. Nina. Op 3-aug-2007, om 6:09 heeft L G SAGE het volgende geschreven: > Don't think you're the only arrogant one amonst us, beastly. #74887 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 3, 2007 1:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sammadi.t.thi Corner nilovg Dear Scott, I agree about opapaatika: Natthi sattaa opapaatikaa. I think that the annihilation view does not take it that there are being spontaneously reborn. We read: Thus, the person with annihilation view does not understand kamma and vipaaka, he does not see that the dying- consciousnes is immediately followed by rebirth-consciousness. Nina. Op 3-aug-2007, om 3:24 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: > Scott: I think the wrong view in question is that which states that > there is no spontaneous or apparitional rebirth - as, for example, in > Deva realms. #74888 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 3, 2007 12:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: satipatthana as island of refuge nilovg Hi Ken (and Howard), Op 3-aug-2007, om 5:07 heeft kenhowardau het volgende geschreven: > I suppose that is true, Nina, but are we likely to encounter anyone > like that at DSG? Everyone here has heard anatta explained in full. > When someone says there is "no person" who practises satipatthana > none of us is going to be dismayed or disheartened by that. -------- N: We know in theory, but the question is, in how far the truth of anatta is applied in daily life. There may be notions of wanting to prepare first, or sitting in meditation. A notion of self that is hidden but active. Or even longing for the first stage of insight. When thinking of little actors I thought of this expression as used by Howard. Phil liked this so much. Nina. #74889 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 3, 2007 1:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Conditions, Ch 8, no 8. nilovg Hi Howard, Op 2-aug-2007, om 15:55 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > As for dhammas, as I see it, only they serve as > conditions, not concept, but they do it "cooperatively", and we then > conventionally speak of this by saying that a certain conglomerate > (thought of as a > "thing") serves as condition. -------- Thank you for your posts on concepts. a good reminder. In the Visuddhimagga (recently quoted) we find Ch XXI, footnote 3, on Concept. There are many ways of viewing concepts. What you analysed is concept as a mass: gana-pa~n~natti. There is also concept as a function and concept as an object. The functions of seeing and thinking of what you see are taken as one, not knowing that thinking is done by kusala javanacittas or akusala javanacittas. Concept as object: You take different objects together. We 'see' people, but there are different objects experienced by different cittas. It is like your logo. We have to apply all this in daily life, right now. Otherwise it 'stays in the book'. I heard a Thai tape on perversion of sa~n~naa. < We think of people, of all of us sitting here, or I sit here. But when seeing appears and it is the object of sati, there is only seeing and no self left. There is no posture of the body. When only one charactreistic of reality appears there is no perversion of sa~n`naa. There should not be trying or thinking that one should sit, then one does not know dhamma. Just a moment ago there was no seeing and then seeing appeared by conditions. It can be known as dhamma. > As I recently quoted, there is no remembrance of the body as a whole, from head to toe, when only one ruupa appears such as hardness. We can take the words of the satipatthanasutta in the right sense: 'When walking he knows, I am walking'. He can be aware of nama and rupa also when walking. As to concept of object: we join nama and rupa. That means that we take them for self. When seeing appears and it is the object of sati and pa~n~naa, only that characteristic can be known as nama, and when visible object appears, only that characteristic can be known as rupa. who says this is easy? We see persons and cling to their names. I consider more perversion of sa~n~naa. It greatly influences our life: Lodewijk, Nina. Kusala sa~n~naa can accompany pa~n~naa and then it is a proximate cause for sati of satipatthana. It performs its function of remembrance of all one has heard and considered. ****** Nina. #74890 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 3, 2007 2:04 am Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge nilovg Dear Tep (and Howard), thanks for your questions. They are good and thus I like to answer via dsg, to be shared with others. ---------- Nina (message #74854) : When Kh Sujin says: nobody can do anything, she does not deny conditions, but it is meant as a reminder to have the right attitude. T: On the first thought that sounds good. Even the right attitude, a sankhata dhamma, is anatta. So she is right. But, does it follow that there is nobody responsible for his/her actions: no wrongdoers to be put in jails, and no arahants who attain Nibbana through the right 'patipadaa'? This dialogue reminds me of the Milinda Panha. ------- N: Of course what you say here is right. But we have so much perversion of sa~n~naa in all we think and do, that we forget the truth of kamma and vipaaka, of what is true in the ultimate sense. We forget to apply the Dhamma in daily life right now. I would like to tell Howard: please forget sitting meditation for a day or so, and see what happens when you don't 'do' anything to promote sati. While listening to Scott's awful music, or when singing in the choir. There are namas and rupas already, and their characteristics can be investigated. You could see whether this makes any difference. This is an interlude to Howard. --------- Nina: When we want to 'do' anything to have more sati this is clinging and counteractive. It is of no use to think of doing anything to have sati. There was listening in the past and in that way right understanding is accumulated. It can arise again and thus it can grow. T: May I ask you how the right cetasikas come together to support indriya-samvara. I ask this because, for example, without cultivated sense restraint right conducts (bodily, verbally, mentally) cannot arise due to the lack of nutriment(aahara). See AN 10.61 or Kundliya Sutta. -------- N: Yes we talked this sutta over long ago. By listening and considering what is kusala, what is akusala, what is the nature of cetasika that is not self. How could there be restraint without knowing anything about the different cittas, it must always begin with listening and having more understanding of them. ----------- Nina: Let us forget about doing, cetasikas do their own work. They are not persons who act (little actors), mere conditioned dhammas. T: Have you ignored the role of the mind and body to cause an action (bodily, verbally, or mentally)? In the world of atoms there are no persons or things. In the world of paramattha-dhammas there are only citta and cetasikas. ------ N: In the world of paramattha-dhammas there are only citta and cetasikas, and rupa and nibbaana. About causing an action: it is citta that moves hands and feet etc. Is it kusala citta or akusala citta? This has to be known. Nina. #74891 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Fri Aug 3, 2007 2:10 am Subject: Re: thank you, once again nichiconn Dear Nina, Scott, Other Perfectionists, Speaking of name dropping, I remember putting something in Nagasena's mouth but now, not whether it was soup or broth my fingers fumbled. << 'There is no soul in the breath. These inhalations and exhalations are merely constituent powers of the bodily frame,' said the Elder. And he talked to him from the Abhidhamma to such effect that Anantakaaya confessed himself as a supporter of the Order. >> It's a nice long section. A footnote says no characteristic mark is given for yoniso manasikaara in "the long list of the distinguishing charateristics of ethical qualities given by Buddhaghosa in the Sumangala". Another, that < 'being unshaken by spiritual pride' is his mark (p. 63) of Samaadhi-bala. > Nagasena answers "And what is the characteristic mark of good conduct?" by saying << 'It has as its characteristic that it is the basis of all good qualities. The five moral powers --faith, perseverance, mindfulness, meditation, and wisdom-; the seven conditions of Arahatship --self-possession, investigation of the Dhamma, perseverance, joy, calm, meditation, and equanimity--; the Path; readiness of memory (unbroken self-possession); the four kinds of right exertion; the four constituent bases of extraordinary powers; the four stages of ecstasy; the eight forms of spiritual emancipation; the four modes of self-concentration; and the eight states of intense contemplation have each and all of them good conduct (the observance of outward morality) as their basis. And to him who builds upon that foundation, O king, all these good conditions will not decrease.' >> peace, connie #74892 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Fri Aug 3, 2007 1:44 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (64) nichiconn Dear Friends, 11. Dvaadasakanipaato 1. Uppalava.n.naatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa part 6 txt: Raajaa "imissaa pitu citta.m ga.nhissaamii"ti tasmi.myeva .thaane kahaapa.naraasimhi .thapetvaa abhiseka.m akaasi. Atha na.m gahetvaa attano nagara.m aanetvaa aagatakaalato pa.t.thaaya sesitthiyo anoloketvaa taaya saddhi.myeva ramati. Taa itthiyo issaapakataa ta.m ra~n~no antare paribhinditukaamaa evamaaha.msu- "naaya.m, mahaaraaja, manussajaatikaa, kaha.m naama tumhehi manussaana.m vicara.na.t.thaane padumaani u.t.thahantaani di.t.thapubbaani, addhaa aya.m yakkhinii, niiharatha na.m, mahaaraajaa"ti. Pruitt: The king thought, "I will captivate the mind of her father," and in that very place, he placed a heap of coins and anointed her [queen]. Then he took her and led her to his own town. From the time of her arrival, he did not pay attention to the other women but delighted in being with her. Those women were overcome by envy and wanted to create dissension between the king and her, so they said, "Great king, this woman is not descended from a human being. Where before this have you seen lotuses appear in a place wher people walk around? Surely she is a yakkhinii. Get rid of her, great king." Raajaa taasa.m katha.m sutvaa tu.nhii ahosi. Athassaaparena samayena paccanto kupito. So "garugabbhaa padumavatii"ti nagare .thapetvaa paccanta.m agamaasi. Atha taa itthiyo tassaa upa.t.thaayikaaya la~nja.m datvaa "imissaa daaraka.m jaatamattameva apanetvaa eka.m daarugha.tika.m lohitena makkhitvaa santike .thapehii"ti aaha.msu. When the king heard what they said, he remained silent. Then on an occasion after that, there was a border disturbance. Thinking, "Padumavatii is heavy with child," he left her in the town and went to the border. Then those women gave a bribe to her attendant, saying, "As soon as her child is born, take it away. Smear a stick of wood with blood and place it near her." Padumavatiyaapi nacirasseva gabbhavu.t.thaana.m ahosi. Mahaapadumakumaaro ekakova kucchiya.m pa.tisandhi.m ga.nhi. Avasesaa ekuunapa~ncasataa daarakaa mahaapadumakumaarassa maatukucchito nikkhamitvaa nipannakaale sa.msedajaa hutvaa nibbatti.msu. Athassaa "na taava aya.m sati.m pa.tilabhatii"ti ~natvaa saa upa.t.thaayikaa eka.m daarugha.tika.m lohitena makkhitvaa samiipe .thapetvaa taasa.m itthiina.m sa~n~na.m adaasi. Taapi pa~ncasataa itthiyo ekekaa ekeka.m daaraka.m gahetvaa cundakaarakaana.m santika.m pesetvaa kara.n.dake aaharaapetvaa attanaa attanaa gahitadaarake tattha nipajjaapetvaa bahi la~nchana.m katvaa .thapayi.msu. Very soon afterwards, Padumavatii gave birth. Prince Mahaa-Paduma alone obtained rebirth in her womb. The remaining 499 boys came forth from the womb of Prince Mahaa-Paduma's mother at the time of her lying in, being moisture born*. The the attendant, knowing she had not regained consciousness, smeared a stick of wood with blood, placed it near her, and gave a signal to those womaen. Each of the 500 women took a child, sent to a woodworker and asked for a box, and taking each a child, [the women] laid them down there [in the boxes]. After putting a seal on the outside [of the boxes], they put them to one side. *On the four types of births, see M I 173 (MLDB 168f): egg born, womb born, moisture born, and spontaneous generation. Being moisture born is given as unpleasant there (born in a rotten fish, a rotten corpse, a rotten dough, a cesspit, or a sewer). This is given here as an explanation for how a woman could have five hundred children at once. The discussion at Khp-a 247 (IUM 287) indicates that both the moisture born and those of spontaneous appearance have no gestation period. Padumavatiipi kho sa~n~na.m labhitvaa ta.m upa.t.thaayika.m "ki.m vijaatamhi, ammaa"ti pucchi. Saa ta.m santajjetvaa "kuto tva.m daaraka.m labhissasii"ti vatvaa "aya.m tava kucchito nikkhantadaarako"ti lohitamakkhita.m daarugha.tika.m purato .thapesi. Saa ta.m disvaa domanassappattaa "siigha.m ta.m phaaletvaa apanehi, sace koci passeyya, lajjitabba.m bhaveyyaa"ti aaha. Saa tassaa katha.m sutvaa atthakaamaa viya daarugha.tika.m phaaletvaa uddhane pakkhipi. When Padumavatii came back to her sense, she asked her attendant, "What have I borne, my dear?" [The attendant] scolded her, saying, "Where would you get a child?" And she placed the stick of wood smeared with blood in front of her, saying, "This is the child that came forth from your womb." Seeing that, she was distressed and said, "Take it away and split it up quickly. If anyone should see it, it would be disgraceful." [The attendant], having heard her, as if wishing her well, split up the stick of wood and threw it in the stove [fire]. ===tbc, connie. #74893 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Aug 3, 2007 4:08 am Subject: Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness jonoabb Hi Swee Boon --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > > Hi Jon, > > > As I said, I read this as explaining why the person being spoken of > > by the Buddha must be one who has become a recluse and is not > > living among other people. So whether monk or layperson, the same > > considerations apply. > > I disagree. > > Firstly, no such requirement was spelt out explicitly by the Buddha > in the sutta. He never singled out breathing meditation as a special > case in DN 22. As regards the references in the anapanasati section of DN 22 to being in the forest or at the foot of a tree, etc, these are to be read in the context of the specific attainment addressed in the section, which I will come to in a moment. They are not the requirements for the development of anapanasati per se from scratch, as this is not the subject being dealt with. As I see it, the purpose of the section of DN 22 dealing with anapanasati is not to explain how anapanasati (a form of samatha bhavana) is developed, but how jhana attained by the development of anapanasati may form the basis for the attainment of enlightenment. In that sense, I agree that 'breathing meditation' (anapanasati) is not singled out in DN 22 as a special case. > Secondly, the commentary said the main reason for going to the forest > or to an empty place is due to sound pollution, which is the major > distraction for breathing meditation. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/soma/wayof.html > > Because the subject of meditation of mindfulness on in-and-out- > breathing is not easy to accomplish without leaving the neighbourhood > of a village, owing to sound, which is a thorn to absorption; > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > A soundproof room with just yourself alone is also a suitable "abode" > for breathing meditation. The life of a recluse as mentioned in the commentary is a life dedicated to the development of samatha. It is not a matter of sound (and other sensual disstractions) being largely absent at the time of one's 'sitting practice' only. The whole life of the recluse is geared to the development of samatha (and insight, of course). So I do not think a soundproof room can be taken as a suitable abode as described in the commentary. (To take that argument further, why not just use earplugs?) > > I meant the difficulty in making the change from the life of one > > who, in the words of the commentary, dwells on visual and other > > objects (i.e., and ordinary monk's or layfollower's life) to the > > life of a recluse (whether as an ordained monk or not) devoted to > > the development of samatha (and satipatthana). > > If so, how can breathing meditation ONLY be for those who are already > "well advanced in the development of samatha"? Someone whose mind > jumps around like a monkey around the five sense bases cannot be too > well advanced in the development of samatha. Let me clarify. I did not mean to say that anapanasati is only for those who are already well advanced in the development of samatha. What I have tried to say in this exchange is that the anapanasati section of DN 22 explains how there can be, contemporaneous with the development of anapanasati (a form of samatha) to the level of jhana, the development of insight to enlightenment based on that jhana. For obvious reasons, this is only meaningful for someone who is already well advanced in the development of anapanasati, and that is why the section begins with the description of a person who is already living the life of a recluse and for whom mindfulness is already well established. > > If in the anapanasati section of DN 22 the Buddha is addressing > > someone who has until that time not developed samatha or vipassana > > at all, then the anapanasati section contains the complete path > > from start to finish. Is that how you see it? > > Breathing meditation is capable of encompassing all four frames of > reference. I think you are moving to a separate topic here, one that we do not need to get into at the moment (although I'd be happy to disucss if you wish), so if you don't mind I'll snip here and go straight to your closing comment. > > My reading. You are free to disagree ;-)). Do you have any > > particular comments? For example, does my reading seem > > inconsistent with the wording of the sutta? > > I think so. As I said, you are free to disagree ;-)). However, I cannot add anything further unless you specify in what way you think my reading is inconsistent with the wording of the sutta. Jon #74894 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Aug 3, 2007 4:25 am Subject: Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness II jonoabb Hi Swee Boon --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > > Hi Jon, > > > These are all accomplishments, rather than a technique of training, > > in my view. How do you see it? > > I prefer to focus on the words "direct path" as spoken by the Buddha. > > There is no accomplishment without "doing" the path. Well, that is the conventional idea of things. But we are trying to figure out exactly what the Buddha taught in that regard, Reading the words of DN 22, they seems to be describing attainments. So perhaps the Buddha's path is not a path to be "done" in the ordinary sense. > > Yes, significant. But I read 'practicing' in the context as > > meaning something like 'able to attain' rather than 'trying to > > follow a given technique/practice'. As in 'a doctor practising > > medicine' rather than 'a person practising the piano'. How do you > > see it? > > Well, I see an arahant as "a doctor practising medicine" and learners > as "persons practising the piano". Again, the question is how the term "practice" as used in DN 22 is to be read in order to give effect to the Buddha's intended meaning. If "practising" means practising as in practising the piano, then it would involve a lot of 'wrong practice', and I don't think the Buddha would praise this. So I think the other meaning of "practice" is a much more likely one. And it seems to fit the context well. Jon #74895 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Aug 3, 2007 6:09 am Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge indriyabala Dear Nina (and Howard, Scott)- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Tep (and Howard), > thanks for your questions. They are good and thus I like to answer > via dsg, to be shared with others. > ---------- > Nina (message #74854) : When Kh Sujin says: nobody can do anything, > she does not deny conditions, but it is meant as a reminder to have > the right attitude. > > T: On the first thought that sounds good. Even the right attitude, a > sankhata dhamma, is anatta. So she is right. But, does it follow that > there is nobody responsible for his/her actions: no wrongdoers to be > put in jails, and no arahants who attain Nibbana through the > right 'patipadaa'? This dialogue reminds me of the Milinda Panha. > ------- > N: Of course what you say here is right. But we have so much > perversion of sa~n~naa in all we think and do, that we forget the > truth of kamma and vipaaka, of what is true in the ultimate sense. We > forget to apply the Dhamma in daily life right now. > I would like to tell Howard: please forget sitting meditation for a > day or so, and see what happens when you don't 'do' anything to > promote sati. While listening to Scott's awful music, or when singing > in the choir. There are namas and rupas already, and their > characteristics can be investigated. You could see whether this makes > any difference. This is an interlude to Howard. > --------- > > Nina: When we want to 'do' anything to have more sati this is > clinging and counteractive. It is of no use to think of doing > anything to have sati. There was listening in the past and in that > way right understanding is accumulated. It can arise again and thus > it can grow. > > T: May I ask you how the right cetasikas come together to support > indriya-samvara. I ask this because, for example, without cultivated > sense restraint right conducts (bodily, verbally, mentally) cannot > arise due to the lack of nutriment(aahara). See AN 10.61 or Kundliya > Sutta. > -------- > N: Yes we talked this sutta over long ago. By listening and > considering what is kusala, what is akusala, what is the nature of > cetasika that is not self. How could there be restraint without > knowing anything about the different cittas, it must always begin > with listening and having more understanding of them. > ----------- > > Nina: Let us forget about doing, cetasikas do their own work. They > are not persons who act (little actors), mere conditioned dhammas. > > T: Have you ignored the role of the mind and body to cause an action > (bodily, verbally, or mentally)? In the world of atoms there are no > persons or things. In the world of paramattha-dhammas there are only > citta and cetasikas. > ------ > N: In the world of paramattha-dhammas there are only > citta and cetasikas, and rupa and nibbaana. > About causing an action: it is citta that moves hands and feet etc. > Is it kusala citta or akusala citta? This has to be known. > Nina. > T: Thank you for answering my questions and posting the answers for everyone to see. Your answers are very good. I like them -- especially the emphasis to awareness & understanding of kusala and akusala. This emphasis has been a major focus of my mental development. Tep === #74896 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Aug 3, 2007 2:25 am Subject: Interludes (Re: [dsg] Re: satipatthana as island of refuge) upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 8/3/07 5:39:13 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > I would like to tell Howard: please forget sitting meditation for a > day or so, and see what happens when you don't 'do' anything to > promote sati. While listening to Scott's awful music, or when singing > in the choir. There are namas and rupas already, and their > characteristics can be investigated. You could see whether this makes > any difference. This is an interlude to Howard. > ==================== :-) I've had plenty of interludes, Nina. They are like the periods that a musician or sportsperson stops his/her practice: There is a falling away of ability that needs to be retrieved at a later date. Meditation is one means, a very important one, of cultivating the mind. It is a practice taught and urged by the Buddha, and practice *does* make perfect. When not meditating, I still practice, but it takes different forms. The Dhamma is not, as I am wont to say, a one-trick pony. BTW, when I meditate, there is no goal in mind other than saying present, staying clear and attentive, relaxing tension, energizing in the face of torpor, and avoiding being caught by distraction. That is - my only goal is proper meditation, especially as described in the Anapanasati Sutta. Shall I recommend to you, Nina, to forget about consideration of the Dhamma in a day or so, neither reading it nor writing about it nor contemplating it? In fact, since you do these things intentionally, surely they are done with self-view lurking in the shadows, and hadn't you best just cut that out entirely? (Just a "modest proposal", Nina! ;-)) With metta, Howard #74897 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 3, 2007 6:15 am Subject: Asoka, Intro 3. nilovg Dear friends, In October 1999, we joined a large group of Thai pilgrims and followed the footsteps of King Asoka in visiting the holy places. The group started in Patna, which, under the name of Påìaliputta, was the capital of King Asoka’s empire. Khun Sujin Boriharnwanaket, our friend in the Dhamma and our teacher, was our spiritual leader and Khun Suwat Chansuvityanant together with his son Khun Pakabutr were in charge of the organisation of the tour. Also Acharn Somporn Srivaratit, Khun Santi Phantakeong Amorn and many other friends took part in this tour. Jack Tippayachan, his wife Oj and other friends had come from from California, Khun Buth Sawong and Khun Soun Orsoth had come from Cambodia. My husband Lodewijk and I came from the Netherlands and started our pilgrimage in New Delhi. There, we went to Kailash (East of Kailash, near the C. Market) in the region which was formerly called Kuru, where the Buddha preached the Mahå-Satipaììhåna Sutta, the Discourse on Mindfulness. We had to go over some dirt to reach the steps leading to the rock where King Asoka had an inscription made to mark the place. A concrete roof has been erected over this place. Just before we arrived a group of Singhalese pilgrims had sprinkled water over the inscription and therefore it was clearly visible. Our guide held up the grill which protects the stone, so that we could look at it while we paid respect. Our guide was interested at the Buddha’s teachings and wanted to know more about the contents. We spoke about the fact that there is no person or self, only elements devoid of self. Afterwards we went to the National Museum in order to pay respect to a relic of the Buddha which has now been enshrined by Thai Buddhists under the patronage of the Royal Thai Government. In the museum we spoke with our guide about the Buddha who, as a Bodhisatta, had to accumulate wisdom during endless lives. Also for us the development of understanding will take aeons. We flew to Patna where we joined our Thai friends and began our pilgrimage together with them, in four buses. Our journey brought us to Nålandå, Råjagaha, Varånasí (Benares), Kusinåra, Såvatthí, and then via Bairawa, in Nepal, to Lumbini, Pokkhara and Kathmandu where our Thai friends would fly back to Bangkok. Lumbini, the birth place of the Bodhisatta, was the last place we visited because of the route the buses had to take. In the holy places we recited together those parts of the scriptures and commentaries which were referring to the place we visited. ****** Nina. #74898 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 3, 2007 6:15 am Subject: Conditions, Ch 9, no 5. nilovg Dear friends, We read in the same section (§ 4): Visible objects, sounds, scents, savours, things tangible... mind- states (dhammas) are impermanent... what is impermanent, that is dukkha. What is dukkha, that is void of the self. What is void of the self, that is not mine; I am not it; it is not my self. That is how it is to be regarded with perfect insight of what it really is. So seeing, monks, the well-taught ariyan disciple is repelled by visible objects, by sounds, scents, savours, things tangible. He is repelled by mind-states. Being repelled by them, he lusts not for them. Not lusting, he is set free. In this freedom comes insight of being free. Thus he realizes: “Rebirth is destroyed. Lived is the righteous life, done is the task, for life in these conditions there is no hereafter.” Clinging to the belief that persons and things exist and that we can own them causes a great deal of suffering. The “worldly conditions” of gain and loss, honour and dishonour, praise and blame, wellbeing and misery change all the time. Loss, sickness and death can occur quite suddenly; they are beyond control, but we tend to forget the truth. We cannot expect immediately to have less clinging to people and things. Even the sotåpanna, the person who has attained the first stage of enlightenment and who has no more wrong view of self, still has attachment and sadness. Only the arahat has eradicated all kinds of clinging. However, when we read the Tipitaka we can appreciate the numerous reminders of the fact that there is no person, only different elements which are devoid of self. These texts remind us of the truth and they can give us confidence to begin to develop the Path in order to see the realities of our life as elements which arise because of their appropriate conditions and are beyond control. As to postnascence-condition, pacchajåta-paccaya, citta and its accompanying cetasikas support the rúpas of the body which have arisen previously and have not fallen away yet. Thus, in this way citta conditions these rúpas by way of postnascence-condition. Citta does not cause the arising of the rúpas it conditions by way of postnascence, these rúpas have arisen already prior to the citta; it supports and consolidates these rúpas which are still present, since rúpa lasts as long as seventeen moments of citta. ******* Nina. #74899 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Aug 3, 2007 3:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness upasaka_howard Hi, Jon (and Swee Boon) - In a message dated 8/3/07 7:09:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: > As I see it, the purpose of the section of DN 22 dealing with > anapanasati is not to explain how anapanasati (a form of samatha > bhavana) is developed, but how jhana attained by the development of > anapanasati may form the basis for the attainment of enlightenment. > ========================= Jon, many points that you make in many posts are matters of reasonable interpretation and opinion, appropriate for serious consideration by others. As an example, I often give serious contemplation to your objective (not phenomenalist) perspective on rupas. But your parenthetical statement here that anapanasati is a form of samatha bhavana is not a matter of reasonable interpretation, in my opinion - I see it as simply false. The Anapanasati Sutta makes it clear that that this cultivation is not just a form of samatha bhavana, but a complete practice. A pure samatha bhavana does not bring the four satipatthana to their culmination, but the practice of anapanasati (as taught by the Buddha, not others) does. The Buddha taught in that sutta the following: "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is of great fruit, of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference to their culmination. The four frames of reference, when developed & pursued, bring the seven factors for awakening to their culmination. The seven factors for awakening, when developed & pursued, bring clear knowing & release to their culmination." A direct examinination of the Buddha's description of anapanasati makes it crystal clear that it is FAR more than a cultivation of samatha. Please look carefully at the following: "[1] Breathing in long, he discerns, 'I am breathing in long'; or breathing out long, he discerns, 'I am breathing out long.' [2] Or breathing in short, he discerns, 'I am breathing in short'; or breathing out short, he discerns, 'I am breathing out short.' [3] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to the entire body.'2 He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to the entire body.' [4] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in calming bodily fabrication.'3 He trains himself, 'I will breathe out calming the bodily fabrication.'" [5] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to rapture.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to rapture.' [6] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to pleasure.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to pleasure.' [7] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to mental fabrication.'4 He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to mental fabrication.' [8] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in calming mental fabrication.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out calming mental fabrication.' "[9] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to the mind.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to the mind.' [10] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in satisfying the mind.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out satisfying the mind.' [11] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in steadying the mind.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out steadying the mind. [12] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in releasing the mind.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out releasing the mind.'5 "[13] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on inconstancy.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on inconstancy.' [14] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on dispassion [literally, fading].' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on dispassion.' [15] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on cessation.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on cessation.' [16] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on relinquishment.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on relinquishment.'"This is how mindfulness of in-&-out breathing is developed & pursued so as to be of great fruit, of great benefit. With metta, Howard P.S. Bhikkhu Buddhadasa, some of whose ideas are not to my liking, does do one thing in particular that I heartily approve of, namely refer to anapanasati as "mindfulness WITH breathing" (rather than "OF breathing"). An inspection of items [1] through [16] above will show why that is a good translation. #74900 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Aug 3, 2007 7:06 am Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge scottduncan2 Dear Tep, Thanks for your reply. I appreciate looking at this. Its a stretch and I don't have this clearly but every chance helps to clarify: 'Yaa kho aavuso visaakha cittassa ekaggataa aya.m samaadhi. Cattaaro satipa.t.thaanaa samaadhinimittaa. ...' Bh Bodhi: Unification of mind, friend Visaakha, is concentration; the four foundations of mindfulness are the basis of concentration Thanissaro Bh: Singleness of mind is concentration; the four frames of reference are its themes. Me: (message #74862): "So, I would say that satipa.t.thaana is not 'samaadhinimitta', as I think you put it (correct me if I've got this wrong), but that the basis for the concentration that arises with satipa.t.thaana is the nimitta of the objects of satipa.t.thaana." Scott: Above, and forgive the imprecision, I should have said, 'satipa.t.thaana is not *a* samaadhinimitta,' which I believe is how you put it. And I mean by that to say that I don't think this is in the sense of nimitta as kasina. I'm out on a limb and so will await correction and clarification. I'd say that the concentration here referred to is that which arises in the moment, the basis of which is satipa.t.thaana - the turning of sati and pa~n~na to a particular object. In other words, the momentary samaadhi - cittassa ekaggata - which functions to assist sati and pa~n~na in a focus on an object in the moment. And then, the object itself is a nimitta of reality. T: "I think the meaning of satipatthaana as the basis/support/ground/reason/condition for samaadhi to arise is compatible with my understanding that also allows another meaning of satipatthaana as the sign/outward appearance/mark/phenomenon that comes before the arising of samaadhi. For example, the purification of virtues(sila) is the nimitta (first meaning) for the arising of the magga (see the Samyutta Nikaya Maha vaggo, Maggasamyutta). The Buddha also called the colorful lights on the horizon as the "nimitta" before the arising of the Sun. In this case nimitta means sign/outward appearance/mark/phenomenon. I guess Ven. Thanissaro's themes in MN 44 are in the second category." Scott: I mined this from the Useful Posts (Message #59993) : "N: Kh Sujin explained different meanings of nimitta. 1. As subject of Samatha, the mental and sublimated image of, for example, a kasina. 2. As outward appearance, such as when we look at a person or a table. We are lost in the image of a person or a table. Here it has the meaning of concept, pa~n~natti. 3. The nimitta of ultimate realities, or the five khandhas. This is the third and more subtle meaning: Visible object falls away immediately and the sign of it remains. This is the nimitta of ultimate realities, sankhaara nimitta...." Scott: So there is nimitta as for samatha bhaavanaa - kasina, nimitta as pa~n~natti, and nimitta as sign of ultimate realities. And also, from Sarah, (Message #65848): S: "...nimittas are the signs of the khandhas. What is left all the time after the dhamma has fallen away is the sign, like the sign of visible object or sound. But each one has fallen away already. It's a shadow of reality. A shadow isn't a khandha itself. When panna grows it knows the difference between the conditioned dhammas which rise and fall and have nimitta and the unconditioned dhamma which doesn't have any nimitta. When we appreciate that what appears now is only the nimitta of a khandha, it helps us to see that we live in the world of nimittas, a kind of dream world as has been stressed so much. It's only when there is the direct understanding of the arising and falling away of realities (khandhas), that they are directly known exactly as they are and there is then the beginning of the turning away from conditioned dhammas. Only then do we really know what is meant by 'dream' with nothing left behind of the dhamma which has fallen away. We then get closer to understanding realities are not sukkha in anyway because of their 3 characteristics..." Me: "It is dhammas that develop, along the lines of the process indicated above and dhammas that 'perform' these functions." T: "How about naama & rupa or khandhas perform the sequential development process of the ten dhammas?" Scott: No, not as I see it. Naama-ruupa or khandhas, used in this sense, seem to me to only refer synonymously to nonexistant being or self or entity, as in: 'The naama-ruupa decided to go to the store for a magazine.' or, 'The khandhas sat down to tea.' I mean to note that, while dhammas arise in complexes at every moment, the development of any dhamma is singular to that given dhamma. Conditionality then describes the interaction of dhammas and the effects of the development of the various functions of single dhammas on the flow of moments. This, to me, is bhaavanaa. What do you think? As I said, I'm looking either for confirmation or correction, since I'm just trying to learn. Sincerely, Scott. #74901 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 3, 2007 7:11 am Subject: Re: Interludes (Re: [dsg] Re: satipatthana as island of refuge) nilovg Hi Howard, It was just a suggestion to try out for yourself and see what happens. But I do understand your point of view. I still have a question. Op 3-aug-2007, om 15:25 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > BTW, when I meditate, there is no goal in mind other than saying > present, staying clear and attentive, relaxing tension, energizing > in the face of > torpor, and avoiding being caught by distraction. That is - my only > goal is > proper meditation, especially as described in the Anapanasati Sutta. -------- N: Did you read Jon's post on this subject? Jon: ------- N: I understood that your goal is jhana, because only then this meditation is fruitful as a basis for vipassana. Jon speaks about the life of a recluse. This can also be for laypeople who earnestly strive for jhana. The purpose of samatha is the subduing of the hindrances, and among those is clinging to sense objects. That includes music, singing, etc. Should one's whole life then not be in accordance with this goal? Just a little suppressing now and then would not be helpful. If one develops vipassana in daily life, one can engage in all the pleasant things, provided you do not harm others or transgress. Think of the perfections, and metta should not be neglected. When there is metta one is considerate, will not use harsh speech or conduct oneself in a way unpleasant for others. Sati can arise any time, without a person doing specific things. Does this not make life easier, more natural? You want to relieve stress by meditation, but this also happens when considering realities naturally, with ease, in daily life. No stress, no fear, no fear of the future. What do you think of that? ------ H: In fact, since you do these things intentionally, surely they are done with self-view lurking in the shadows, and hadn't you best just cut that out entirely? (Just a "modest proposal", Nina! ;-)) ------- N: ;-)) I like to discuss Dhamma with you, Howard. You always have good and interesting points, worth considering. Even when you scold the commentator ;-)) Of course there is always self-view, and also (hello Scott) plenty of conceit, 'I know better than him', etc. But I still post, and this is because of conditions. When someone else says something, there are conditions to write, very strange. Also when I am tired. ***** Nina. #74902 From: "nidive" Date: Fri Aug 3, 2007 7:50 am Subject: Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness nidive Hi Jon, > As I said, you are free to disagree ;-)). However, I cannot add > anything further unless you specify in what way you think my > reading is inconsistent with the wording of the sutta. You are bringing in new ideas every day in your replies that I don't even know exactly what your reading of the sutta is anymore. What you said in a previous post becomes something else in a newer post. Maybe you can summarise everything in one big post. Or we can drop this altogether. Swee Boon #74903 From: "nidive" Date: Fri Aug 3, 2007 7:56 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness nidive Hi Howard, > P.S. Bhikkhu Buddhadasa, some of whose ideas are not to my liking, > does do one thing in particular that I heartily approve of, namely > refer to anapanasati as "mindfulness WITH breathing" (rather than > "OF breathing"). An inspection of items [1] through [16] above will > show why that is a good translation. Thanks for pointing this out. I also think "mindfulness with breathing" is a very good translation. Swee Boon #74904 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Aug 3, 2007 4:06 am Subject: Re: Interludes (Re: [dsg] Re: satipatthana as island of refuge) upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 8/3/07 10:17:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > It was just a suggestion to try out for yourself and see what > happens. But I do understand your point of view. I still have a > question. > Op 3-aug-2007, om 15:25 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > > >BTW, when I meditate, there is no goal in mind other than saying > >present, staying clear and attentive, relaxing tension, energizing > >in the face of > >torpor, and avoiding being caught by distraction. That is - my only > >goal is > >proper meditation, especially as described in the Anapanasati Sutta. > -------- > N: Did you read Jon's post on this subject? > Jon: section of DN 22 explains how there can be, contemporaneous with the > development of anapanasati (a form of samatha) to the level of jhana, > the development of insight to enlightenment based on that jhana. > > For obvious reasons, this is only meaningful for someone who is > already well advanced in the development of anapanasati, and that is > why the section begins with the description of a person who is > already living the life of a recluse and for whom mindfulness is > already well established.> ------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, I've read it. I replied to it. ------------------------------------ > ------- > N: I understood that your goal is jhana, because only then this > meditation is fruitful as a basis for vipassana. ---------------------------------------- Howard: My goal is awakening. For this, Dhamma practice in its entirety as laid out by the Buddha is requisite. I pay attention to the practice and let results take care of themselves. ------------------------------------------- > Jon speaks about the life of a recluse. This can also be for > laypeople who earnestly strive for jhana. > The purpose of samatha is the subduing of the hindrances, and among > those is clinging to sense objects. That includes music, singing, > etc. Should one's whole life then not be in accordance with this > goal? Just a little suppressing now and then would not be helpful. ------------------------------------------- Howard: I engage in Dhamma practice as best I can and as consistently as I can. I do not accept an attitude of "all or nothing at all," which is simply defeatest. -------------------------------------------- > If one develops vipassana in daily life, one can engage in all the > pleasant things, provided you do not harm others or transgress. Think > of the perfections, and metta should not be neglected. When there is > metta one is considerate, will not use harsh speech or conduct > oneself in a way unpleasant for others. ----------------------------------------- Howard: Developing "vipassana in daily life", which I often refer to, perhaps misleadingly, as "ongoing mindfulness," is an essential part of my practice. I've mentiopned this more than once, Nina. -------------------------------------- > Sati can arise any time, without a person doing specific things. > -------------------------------------- Howard: I consider that nonsense. Nothing comes from nothing. What may or may not happen, randomly, by which I mean without basis in volition, is of no relevance to Dhamma practice. The Dhamma doesn't involve dumb luck. It involves intentional cultivation. BTW, Nina, haven't we played this point-counterpoint duet before more than once? ;-) -------------------------------------- Does > > this not make life easier, more natural? > ------------------------------------- Howard: It's always "easy" to not require anything of oneself. But the Dhamma is not an "easy way". ------------------------------------- You want to relieve stress > > by meditation, but this also happens when considering realities > naturally, with ease, in daily life. No stress, no fear, no fear of > the future. What do you think of that? -------------------------------------- Howard: I think that the Dhamma is not a stress-relief program. I am not looking to "relieve stress" (a term with little appeal to me, BTW) by meditation, though that is a side effect. And who says that I do not engage in "considering realities naturally, with ease, in daily life"? I have said again and again that I do that as an essential part of my practice. -------------------------------------- > ------ > H: In fact, since you do these things intentionally, surely they are > done > with self-view lurking in the shadows, and hadn't you best just cut > that out > entirely? (Just a "modest proposal", Nina! ;-)) > ------- > N: ;-)) I like to discuss Dhamma with you, Howard. You always have > good and interesting points, worth considering. Even when you scold > the commentator ;-)) > Of course there is always self-view, and also (hello Scott) plenty of > conceit, 'I know better than him', etc. But I still post, and this is > because of conditions. When someone else says something, there are > conditions to write, very strange. Also when I am tired. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, and there are conditions for meditating. :-) ------------------------------------------------ > > ***** > Nina. > ======================= With metta, Howard #74905 From: "nidive" Date: Fri Aug 3, 2007 8:32 am Subject: Not Hard to Accept (Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Walking) nidive Hi Scott, > Now, I am aware that I have been direct with you in the past > regarding what I think is a smug style of pseudo-teaching that I, > as an arrogant bastard, don't appreciate. I think you are still > angry about this, and hence your penchant for taking pot shots. > I'll bet that this directness effected you. Ever since I said > this, awhile ago, I've noted that you relate to me in the fashion > I commented on in the last post. You might not think that this is > anger, and its not for me to say, but you have an opinion on the > matter. I find you a strange and weird person. If you do not appreciate what I said, why reply with empty posts that goes along like "THANKS for the comments, SINCERELY." A non-reply would have done the job. I can only guess that you are: (a) a person with split personality disorder, or (b) a hypocrite. > This goes to the heart of satipa.t.thaana, I think. I think I sense a very big hideous self hiding behind that facade of dhamma talk on cittas, cetasikas, anicca, dukkha and anatta. > As for us, let's mind our own business for awhile, shall we? Not to worry, I will not bother you ever again. Swee Boon #74906 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Aug 3, 2007 5:06 am Subject: Re: Not Hard to Accept (Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Walking) upasaka_howard Hi, Swee Boon (and Scott) - In a message dated 8/3/07 11:33:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time, nidive@... writes: > Hi Scott, > > >Now, I am aware that I have been direct with you in the past > >regarding what I think is a smug style of pseudo-teaching that I, > >as an arrogant bastard, don't appreciate. I think you are still > >angry about this, and hence your penchant for taking pot shots. > >I'll bet that this directness effected you. Ever since I said > >this, awhile ago, I've noted that you relate to me in the fashion > >I commented on in the last post. You might not think that this is > >anger, and its not for me to say, but you have an opinion on the > >matter. > > I find you a strange and weird person. ------------------------------------------- Howard: LOLOL! Please don't hold back so, Swee Boon! ;-)) -------------------------------------------- > > If you do not appreciate what I said, why reply with empty posts that > goes along like "THANKS for the comments, SINCERELY." A non-reply > would have done the job. > > I can only guess that you are: > (a) a person with split personality disorder, or > (b) a hypocrite. -------------------------------------------- Howard: I find myself thinking about the old adage of catching more flies with honey than vinegar. :-) Actually, the honey smells sweeter even to oneself. ------------------------------------------- > > >This goes to the heart of satipa.t.thaana, I think. > > I think I sense a very big hideous self hiding behind that facade of > dhamma talk on cittas, cetasikas, anicca, dukkha and anatta. ------------------------------------------- Howard: I would suppose that holds true for all of us, whether we speak "Khun Sujinese" or "formal-meditationese", don't you suppose? I know it's true for me, which is why I "keep on keeping on". ========================= With metta, Howard #74907 From: "nidive" Date: Fri Aug 3, 2007 9:28 am Subject: Not Hard to Accept (Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Walking) nidive Hi Howard, > I would suppose that holds true for all of us, whether we > speak "Khun Sujinese" or "formal-meditationese", don't you suppose? > I know it's true for me, which is why I "keep on keeping on". But Howard, I do not sense any hideousness in you. Though sometimes I do sense a little arrogance and a little anger, but you come across to me as a sincere Buddhist practicing rightly according to the Dhamma. Swee Boon #74908 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Aug 3, 2007 7:10 am Subject: Re: Not Hard to Accept (Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Walking) upasaka_howard Hi, Swee Boon - In a message dated 8/3/07 12:32:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nidive@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > >I would suppose that holds true for all of us, whether we > >speak "Khun Sujinese" or "formal-meditationese", don't you suppose? > >I know it's true for me, which is why I "keep on keeping on". > > But Howard, I do not sense any hideousness in you. Though sometimes I > do sense a little arrogance and a little anger, but you come across > to me as a sincere Buddhist practicing rightly according to the > Dhamma. -------------------------------------------- Howard: I think we (all) are likely to be off-base in our sensing at a distance. I thank you for your kind words to me, though. I know you are right about the (little) anger, but I'm not too sure about the arrogance. I hope you are wrong on that. Does my thinking that you are wrong prove my arrogance? ;-)) ---------------------------------------------- > > Swee Boon > ======================== With metta, Howard #74909 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 3, 2007 10:51 am Subject: Re: Interludes (Re: [dsg] Re: satipatthana as island of refuge) nilovg Hi Howard, I know we went over this before, but since you say it is nonsense I thought maybe I can add something. Op 3-aug-2007, om 17:06 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Sati can arise any time, without a person doing specific things. > > -------------------------------------- > Howard: > I consider that nonsense. Nothing comes from nothing. What may or may > not happen, randomly, by which I mean without basis in volition, is > of no > relevance to Dhamma practice. The Dhamma doesn't involve dumb luck. > It involves > intentional cultivation. -------- N: I said: I did not say: without conditions. The condition is understanding, nothing else. Nina. #74910 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Aug 3, 2007 9:11 am Subject: Re: Interludes (Re: [dsg] Re: satipatthana as island of refuge) upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 8/3/07 3:20:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > I know we went over this before, but since you say it is nonsense I > thought maybe I can add something. > Op 3-aug-2007, om 17:06 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > > >Sati can arise any time, without a person doing specific things. > >>-------------------------------------- > >Howard: > >I consider that nonsense. Nothing comes from nothing. What may or may > >not happen, randomly, by which I mean without basis in volition, is > >of no > >relevance to Dhamma practice. The Dhamma doesn't involve dumb luck. > >It involves > >intentional cultivation. > -------- > N: I said: > I did not say: without conditions. The condition is understanding, > nothing else. ----------------------------------------- Howard: Ahh, now I get it - 1st comes wisdom,and with that as (sole) condition, then arises mindfulness. Hmm - I'll have to think about that! ;-) ------------------------------------------- > Nina. > > ===================== Sorry, Nina, I just don't buy it. For me, and with apologies for saying so, this is not the true Dhamma. With metta, Howard #74911 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Aug 3, 2007 2:04 pm Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge indriyabala Hi KenH (Howard and Nina), - --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi Tep (and Scott), > > ---------- > T: > > > "I am glad that you mentioned the term "practice". Who > practices these dhammas? If there is no one, then how is >vijjavimutti directly known?" > > Scott: > > I'm sorry, I'm not sure I'm following you. Are you >asking who practises? Doesn't pa~n~na know? I think anatta means >no-self therefore no one practises. Just conditioned dhammas with > characteristics arising and falling away. > > T: > Sorry about the confusion. Let me redo it. > I am not sure how you may apply the principles of paramattha-dhammas > to explain the development process in AN 10.61, i.e. from (1.) > association with noble disciples to (10.) release via the other 8 > dhammas : (2.)good listening to the teachings, (3.)appropriate > attention, (4.)mindfulness & alertness, (5.)restraint of the senses, > (6.)three forms of right conduct, (7.) four frames of reference, (8.) > seven factors for awakening, (9.) clear knowing. > ---------------- > > If you don't mind, Tep, I really would like you to answer the > question: "Doesn't anatta mean no one practises?" As an admirer of > Ven. Thanissaro you must be aware of his views on anatta. >He says it is just a device that stops meditators from thinking >about existence > and non-existence. He believes that, at parinibbana, consciousness > will cross over from the conditioned world, where it is "bound," to > the unconditioned world, where it is "unbound." > > Perhaps I shouldn't be obsessed with TB's heterodox opinions (he is > entitled to teach whatever he likes). However, whenever his name > comes up in discussions, I always like to know where people stand > with regard to them. Thanks in advance. > > Ken H > .................. T: I do not mind at all, Ken. Your input has an educational value for me. However, I cannot claim that I can give you a satisfactory answer. An answer to your above question is : At the paramattha-dhamma level there are only cittas, cetasikas, ruupa and nibbana. We all know that these dhammas are 'anatta', but it is a different matter to say too strongly that "anatta means no one practises". Why? Because if there is no 'patipatti' or there is no 'patipada', then there will not be eradication of dukkkha through the cessation of kamma. Both Kamma and Dukkha were defined by the Great Sage with beings in mind (although there are no beings seen in the paramattha world of the ariyans). Read the following 3 sutta quotes and tell me what you think. (I)[AN 6.63] 'Kamma should be known. The cause by which kamma comes into play should be known. The diversity in kamma should be known. The result of kamma should be known. The cessation of kamma should be known. The path of practice for the cessation of kamma should be known.' Thus it has been said. Why was it said? Intention, I tell you, is kamma. Intending, one does kamma by way of body, speech, and intellect. And what is the cause by which kamma comes into play? Contact... T: So, there is nobody who is responsible to intentions that conditions kamma by way of body, speech, and intellect? (II) [MN 61] Rahula, all the priests and contemplatives in the course of the past who purified their bodily acts, verbal acts, and mental acts, did it through repeated reflection on their bodily acts, verbal acts, and mental acts in just this way. All the priests and contemplatives in the course of the future... All the priests and contemplatives at present who purify their bodily acts, verbal acts, and mental acts, do it through repeated reflection on their bodily acts, verbal acts, and mental acts in just this way. Therefore, Rahula, you should train yourself: 'I will purify my bodily acts through repeated reflection. I will purify my verbal acts through repeated reflection. I will purify my mental acts through repeated reflection.' Thus you should train yourself. T: So, you say there is no Rahula who trained himself according to the Buddha's instructions? (III) [SN 56.11] Now this, monks, is the noble truth of stress: Birth is stressful, aging is stressful, death is stressful; sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, and despair are stressful; association with the unbeloved is stressful, separation from the loved is stressful, not getting what is wanted is stressful. In short, the five aggregates for sustenance are stressful. T: So, there is nobody who has dukkha (begining with birth, and followed by sorrow, lamentation, ageing, and despair)? KenH: As an admirer of Ven. Thanissaro you must be aware of his views on anatta. He says it is just a device that stops meditators from thinking about existence and non-existence. He believes that, at parinibbana, consciousness will cross over from the conditioned world, where it is "bound," to the unconditioned world, where it is "unbound." No, I am not familiar with what you wrote above. Can you get the original words of the Venerable with appropriate Web links for me, please? After that we'll discuss. Tep === #74912 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Aug 3, 2007 2:25 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: satipatthana as island of refuge indriyabala Hi Sarah (and Jon) - --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Tep & all, > (snipped) > > Look f/w to your further comments on any of this. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======== > T: So our discussion continues. >Tep: Satipatthana is just one of the ten dhammas that are the theme of AN 10.61. How do you see paramattha dhammas in the vijjaavimutti development process of this sutta? Sarah(Message #74852): As I see it, there is no vijjavimmutti without the development of satipatthana and it is paramattha dhammas only that have to be understood by sati sampajanna in this development and fully penetrated by the developed wisdom resulting in the vijjavimutti. So it is the association with the wisdom (of the Buddha and ariyans) that has penetrated the nature of paramattha dhammas, the hearing, the confidence, the wise attention to such, the development of sati and panna in order that the indriyas are developed, the characteristics of dhammas fully penetrated, the enlightenment factors fulfilled that leads to attainment/enlightenment. Does it still sound like a distant whisper? If so, let's continue discussing. T: Paramattha-dhamma principles are enclosed within the Four Noble Truths. The path (patipada) leading to the extinction of sufferring -- Nibbana -- is the Fourth Noble Truth. So it is the association with the wisdom (of the Buddha and ariyans) that has penetrated the Four Noble Truths, the hearing, the confidence, the wise attention to such, the development of sati and panna in order that the indriyasamvara is developed, the characteristics of dhammas fully penetrated, the enlightenment factors fulfilled that leads to attainment/enlightenment. Now, I think, it sounds like a thunder to my ear. .................. S: Seriously, the Dhamma in general and any part of it which touches on 'our practice' or 'belief systems' is bound to arouse deep emotions at times. Like Nina mentioned with Lodewijk's outbursts. I'm sure it's common and only passing dhammas, not anyone's. Soon gone:). T: Very well said, Sarah. Tep === #74913 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Aug 3, 2007 12:09 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: satipatthana as island of refuge upasaka_howard Hi, Tep (and Ken) - In a message dated 8/3/07 5:05:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, indriyabala@... writes: > > Hi KenH (Howard and Nina), - > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" > wrote: > > > >Hi Tep (and Scott), > > > >---------- > > T: >>>"I am glad that you mentioned the term "practice". Who > >practices these dhammas? If there is no one, then how is > >vijjavimutti directly known?" > > > >Scott: >>I'm sorry, I'm not sure I'm following you. Are you > >asking who practises? Doesn't pa~n~na know? I think anatta means > >no-self therefore no one practises. Just conditioned dhammas with > >characteristics arising and falling away. > > > >T: >Sorry about the confusion. Let me redo it. > >I am not sure how you may apply the principles of paramattha-dhammas > >to explain the development process in AN 10.61, i.e. from (1.) > >association with noble disciples to (10.) release via the other 8 > >dhammas : (2.)good listening to the teachings, (3.)appropriate > >attention, (4.)mindfulness &alertness, (5.)restraint of the senses, > >(6.)three forms of right conduct, (7.) four frames of reference, > (8.) > >seven factors for awakening, (9.) clear knowing. > >---------------- > > > >If you don't mind, Tep, I really would like you to answer the > >question: "Doesn't anatta mean no one practises?" As an admirer of > >Ven. Thanissaro you must be aware of his views on anatta. > >He says it is just a device that stops meditators from thinking > >about existence > >and non-existence. He believes that, at parinibbana, consciousness > >will cross over from the conditioned world, where it is "bound," to > >the unconditioned world, where it is "unbound." > > > >Perhaps I shouldn't be obsessed with TB's heterodox opinions (he is > >entitled to teach whatever he likes). However, whenever his name > >comes up in discussions, I always like to know where people stand > >with regard to them. Thanks in advance. > > > >Ken H > > > .................. > > T: I do not mind at all, Ken. Your input has an educational value for > me. However, I cannot claim that I can give you a satisfactory > answer. > > An answer to your above question is : At the paramattha-dhamma level > there are only cittas, cetasikas, ruupa and nibbana. We all know that > these dhammas are 'anatta', but it is a different matter to say too > strongly that "anatta means no one practises". Why? Because if there > is no 'patipatti' or there is no 'patipada', then there will not be > eradication of dukkkha through the cessation of kamma. Both Kamma and > Dukkha were defined by the Great Sage with beings in mind (although > there are no beings seen in the paramattha world of the ariyans). > Read the following 3 sutta quotes and tell me what you think. > > (I)[AN 6.63] 'Kamma should be known. The cause by which kamma comes > into play should be known. The diversity in kamma should be known. > The result of kamma should be known. The cessation of kamma should be > known. The path of practice for the cessation of kamma should be > known.' Thus it has been said. Why was it said? > > Intention, I tell you, is kamma. Intending, one does kamma by way of > body, speech, and intellect. > > And what is the cause by which kamma comes into play? Contact... > > T: So, there is nobody who is responsible to intentions that > conditions kamma by way of body, speech, and intellect? > > (II) [MN 61] Rahula, all the priests and contemplatives in the course > of the past who purified their bodily acts, verbal acts, and mental > acts, did it through repeated reflection on their bodily acts, verbal > acts, and mental acts in just this way. > > All the priests and contemplatives in the course of the future... All > the priests and contemplatives at present who purify their bodily > acts, verbal acts, and mental acts, do it through repeated reflection > on their bodily acts, verbal acts, and mental acts in just this way. > > Therefore, Rahula, you should train yourself: 'I will purify my > bodily acts through repeated reflection. I will purify my verbal acts > through repeated reflection. I will purify my mental acts through > repeated reflection.' Thus you should train yourself. > > T: So, you say there is no Rahula who trained himself according to > the Buddha's instructions? > > (III) [SN 56.11] Now this, monks, is the noble truth of stress: Birth > is stressful, aging is stressful, death is stressful; sorrow, > lamentation, pain, distress, and despair are stressful; association > with the unbeloved is stressful, separation from the loved is > stressful, not getting what is wanted is stressful. In short, the > five aggregates for sustenance are stressful. > > T: So, there is nobody who has dukkha (begining with birth, and > followed by sorrow, lamentation, ageing, and despair)? > > KenH: As an admirer of Ven. Thanissaro you must be aware of his views > on anatta. He says it is just a device that stops meditators from > thinking about existence and non-existence. He believes that, at > parinibbana, consciousness will cross over from the conditioned > world, where it is "bound," to the unconditioned world, where it > is "unbound." > > No, I am not familiar with what you wrote above. Can you get the > original words of the Venerable with appropriate Web links for me, > please? After that we'll discuss. > > > Tep > ============================== Here's my perspective, Tep: In Ordinary Speak, a very popular language (LOL!), many people practice. But speaking more technically (and more literally), no one practices. When it is said that no one practices, the emphasis is not on the practice but on the alleged practitioner. The point is that lots of activities and events occur - lots of phenomena arise, and we refer to all that as "a person practicing". But there is no entity called a person who, upon careful inspection, is findable or graspable. There is, in fact, just the mental superimposition of the percept/concept of "person" upon the experience of a multitude of dhammas. With metta, Howard #74914 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Aug 3, 2007 4:15 pm Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge indriyabala Hi, Scott (Nina, Sarah) - This post is getting longer ! Scott (message # 74900): .. Its a stretch and I don't have this clearly but every chance helps to clarify: 'Yaa kho aavuso visaakha cittassa ekaggataa aya.m samaadhi. Cattaaro satipa.t.thaanaa samaadhinimittaa. ...' Bh Bodhi: Unification of mind, friend Visaakha, is concentration; the four foundations of mindfulness are the basis of concentration Thanissaro Bh: Singleness of mind is concentration; the four frames of reference are its themes. Scott: (message #74862): "So, I would say that satipa.t.thaana is not 'samaadhinimitta', as I think you put it (correct me if I've got this wrong), but that the basis for the concentration that arises with satipa.t.thaana is the nimitta of the objects of satipa.t.thaana." Scott: Above, and forgive the imprecision, I should have said, 'satipa.t.thaana is not *a* samaadhinimitta,' which I believe is how you put it. And I mean by that to say that I don't think this is in the sense of nimitta as kasina. Scott: I'm out on a limb and so will await correction and clarification. I'd say that the concentration here referred to is that which arises in the moment, the basis of which is satipa.t.thaana - the turning of sati and pa~n~na to a particular object. In other words, the momentary samaadhi - cittassa ekaggata - which functions to assist sati and pa~n~na in a focus on an object in the moment. And then, the object itself is a nimitta of reality. ........... T: I am not clear how "the object itself is a nimitta of reality" should be understood. I am only familiar with the meanings of samadhinimitta as given earlier: >T: "I think the meaning of satipatthaana as the basis/support/ground/reason/condition for samaadhi to arise is compatible with my understanding that also allows another meaning of satipatthaana as the sign/outward appearance/ mark/phenomenon that comes before the arising of samaadhi. For example, the purification of virtues(sila) is the nimitta (first meaning) for the arising of the magga (see the Samyutta Nikaya Maha vaggo, Maggasamyutta). The Buddha also called the colorful lights on the horizon as the "nimitta" before the arising of the Sun. In this case nimitta means sign/outward appearance/ mark/phenomenon. I guess Ven. Thanissaro's themes in MN 44 are in the second category." ............... Scott: I mined this from the Useful Posts (Message #59993) : "N: Kh Sujin explained different meanings of nimitta. 1. As subject of Samatha, the mental and sublimated image of, for example, a kasina. 2. As outward appearance, such as when we look at a person or a table. We are lost in the image of a person or a table. Here it has the meaning of concept, pa~n~natti. 3. The nimitta of ultimate realities, or the five khandhas. This is the third and more subtle meaning: Visible object falls away immediately and the sign of it remains. This is the nimitta of ultimate realities, sankhaara nimitta...." Scott: So there is nimitta as for samatha bhaavanaa - kasina, nimitta as pa~n~natti, and nimitta as sign of ultimate realities. T: Thanks to Nina for the good summary, and thanks to you for doing the search for us. ............. Scott: And also, from Sarah, (Message #65848): S: "...nimittas are the signs of the khandhas. What is left all the time after the dhamma has fallen away is the sign, like the sign of visible object or sound. But each one has fallen away already. It's a shadow of reality. A shadow isn't a khandha itself. When panna grows it knows the difference between the conditioned dhammas which rise and fall and have nimitta and the unconditioned dhamma which doesn't have any nimitta. When we appreciate that what appears now is only the nimitta of a khandha, it helps us to see that we live in the world of nimittas, a kind of dream world as has been stressed so much. ..." ............... Scott: "It is dhammas that develop, along the lines of the process indicated above and dhammas that 'perform' these functions." T: There seems to be a missing element in your statement; this might be what Sarah called "we" who "appreciate" and "see" the dhammas. The dhammas are conditioned phenomena that arise and pass away, but it is the series of cittas that are developed to "perform" those 10 functions in An 10.61, I think. Read the following sutta quote and please tell me what you think. (I) At Savatthi. "Monks, any desire-passion with regard to eye- consciousness is a defilement of the mind. Any desire-passion with regard to ear-consciousness... nose-consciousness... tongue- consciousness... body-consciousness... intellect-consciousness is a defilement of the mind. When, with regard to these six bases, the defilements of awareness are abandoned, then the mind is inclined to renunciation. The mind fostered by renunciation feels malleable for the direct knowing of those qualities worth realizing." [SN 27.3: Vi~n~nana Sutta — Consciousness] (II) When the mind is concentrated, pure, free from minor defilements, malleable workable not disturbed, he directs the mind for the destruction of desires. He knows this is unpleasant(dukkha), this its arising, this its cessation, and this, the path to the cessation of unpleasantness as it really is. Knows these are desires, this, their rising, this, their cessation and this, the path to their cessation as it really is. His mind that knows and sees thus, is released from sensual desires, from desires `to be' and from ignorant desires. When released, he knows, I'm released, birth is destroyed, the holy life is lived, what should be done is done.There's nothing more to wish. [MN 125: Dantabhumi Sutta] ............. >T: "How about naama & rupa or khandhas perform the sequential development process of the ten dhammas?" Scott: No, not as I see it. Naama-ruupa or khandhas, used in this sense, seem to me to only refer synonymously to nonexistant being or self or entity, as in: 'The naama-ruupa decided to go to the store for a magazine.' or, 'The khandhas sat down to tea.' I mean to note that, while dhammas arise in complexes at every moment, the development of any dhamma is singular to that given dhamma. Conditionality then describes the interaction of dhammas and the effects of the development of the various functions of single dhammas on the flow of moments. This, to me, is bhaavanaa. What do you think? As I said, I'm looking either for confirmation or correction, since I'm just trying to learn. T: Your examples : 'The naama-ruupa decided to go to the store for a magazine.' and 'The khandhas sat down to tea.' are excellent. I admit that my above question was a bad one. I think it should a series of arising-and-passing-away cittas (such continuity is wrongly seen as a single citta) that understand and develop the the dhammas from the beginning of the process up to the present moment. The concept of continuity is explained in the Milinda Panha Sutta. Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Dear Tep, > > Thanks for your reply. I appreciate looking at this. Its a stretch > and I don't have this clearly but every chance helps to clarify: > > 'Yaa kho aavuso visaakha cittassa ekaggataa aya.m samaadhi. Cattaaro > satipa.t.thaanaa samaadhinimittaa. ...' #74915 From: "gazita2002" Date: Fri Aug 3, 2007 4:30 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Samsara gazita2002 Hello Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Azita (and Nina) - azita: thank you 4 your kind words, Howard. It feels quite good being a grandparent. cheers azita > May you and your family have wonderful experiences with your new > grandson, affording you loads of happy times and much joyful thinking. > #74916 From: "gazita2002" Date: Fri Aug 3, 2007 4:55 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Walking and General Deportment of the Body gazita2002 Hello Sarah, thank you for your well wishes. Actually I now remember that swimming pool episode, had totally forgotten. Sanna is interesting, it arises with every citta and remembers all sorts of weird things, but more importantly it is anatta.. have been listening to one of the discussion from Bkk and sanna was the topic. Robk was saying how he thought feeling was easier to distinguish, but if it wasnt for sanna maybe the feelings would be much different eg. if events/situations are not remembered then certain feelings would not arise. What do you think? I do like what Scott has written. It is so important to be reminded again and again that 'I' is a concept - this 'self concept' has been accumulated for sooooo long, that it is not going to be eradicated in a hurry. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Azita & Scott, > > Azita, thanks for sharing the happy news that all is well for Zoe and > baby. Like Nina, we remember Zoe as a baby very well too when we were all > in Sri Lanka together. Nina remembers the tears and even my assistance. I > don't at all, but I remember her being rescued from my friend's swimming > pool and a puddle or two! Sanna works in strange ways according to our > perverted accumulations:-) > ..... > I also thought Scott wrote the following very well: > > --- Scott Duncan wrote: > > With the sense that 'I' study, 'I' come to conclusions, 'I' think for > > 'myself', 'I am' open-minded, 'I am' learning things, 'I discuss' > > things, etc., there is an experience of being a part of these actions > > - of an identification with them. They are claimed and subsumed > > under the idea of self - but this is just part of experience, perhaps > > not even thought about. And this is obscuration. > > > > It is just seeing and thinking. It rolls on. When the sutta's say, > > 'A bhikkhu does such-and-such', an idea of self clings to the notion > > of someone - a bhikkhu, or this means 'me' too - who is doing > > something, or is told to do something. Without an idea of self, > > 'bhikkhu' is just a given moment of consciousness, just a certain > > constellation of conditioned dhammas. > > > .......... > Sarah: And no one making slow progress, attaining insights, getting sati, > realising jhanas. Just dhammas rolling on, whatever language we use. > > No need for any conflict with or change in our usual conventional > language. > > So Azita, enjoy your new-found baby-filled days! Most friends report that > being a grandma is a real joy compared to being a young mum. > > Metta, > > Sarah azita; mmmm, I think its true. I dont have to have the sleepless nites that Zoe is experiencing; however, shes coping well. He's a cute little bub, and I'm probably biased. Now that's all conceptual, in reality......... :-)) Patience, courage and good cheer, azita #74917 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Aug 3, 2007 5:14 pm Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge indriyabala Hi Howard, - Thank you very much for the comment. >Howard: Here's my perspective, Tep: In Ordinary Speak, a very popular language (LOL!), many people practice. But speaking more technically (and more literally), no one practices. When it is said that no one practices, the emphasis is not on the practice but on the alleged practitioner. The point is that lots of activities and events occur - lots of phenomena arise, and we refer to all that as "a person practicing". But there is no entity called a person who, upon careful inspection, is findable or graspable. There is, in fact, just the mental superimposition of the percept/concept of "person" upon the experience of a multitude of dhammas. T: It is the same kind of memorized knowledge from Buddhism studies that I had, Howard. Yes, technically we all know that that the khandhas, ayatanas, naama & ruupa, and dhatus are 'anatta' -- not "findable or graspable" or uncontrollable. Therefore, I know that I should not think of these dhammas as mine, me, or my self. So, let's do better than that. What should I do in order to turn that kind of non-ariyan's knowledge into direct knowledge? How can I abandon "the mental superimposition of the percept/concept of "person" upon the experience of a multitude of dhammas" ? Tep === #74918 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Aug 3, 2007 5:24 pm Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge kenhowardau > > If you don't mind, Tep, I really would like you to answer the > > question: "Doesn't anatta mean no one practises?" Hi Tep, Thanks for your reply: ------------ T: I do not mind at all, Ken. Your input has an educational value for me. However, I cannot claim that I can give you a satisfactory answer. An answer to your above question is : At the paramattha-dhamma level there are only cittas, cetasikas, ruupa and nibbana. We all know that these dhammas are 'anatta', but it is a different matter to say too strongly that "anatta means no one practises". Why? ------------- Before discussing your answer to this question, I would like to offer my own answer: The Buddha's task, in teaching the Dhamma, was to describe a completely (wholly, entirely, absolutely) new way of seeing the world. If you see a commonplace (previously known) interpretation of his teaching please (PLEASE) put that commonplace interpretation to one side for a moment. Try to see the completely new (never heard before) teaching that I am referring to: The world, as described by the Buddha, is nothing more than conditioned dhammas arising at one of six doorways in the single, present, moment of consciousness. ------------------- T: > Why? Because if there is no 'patipatti' or there is no 'patipada', then there will not be eradication of dukkkha through the cessation of kamma. ------------------- You have taken a leap of logic there. You have referred to practice (patipati) and progress (attainment, patipada) as if they could not exist without a self that practised and a self that attained. Try for a minute not to take that leap of logic, and consider how practice and attainment would be if the entire world was just a single moment of consciousness. They would be what we call a moment of mundane path consciousness (satipatthana) and a moment of supramundane path consciousness (magga-citta). That is what the Visuddhimagga is talking about when it says: "Nibbana is, but not the man that enters it; The Path is, but no traveller on it is seen." ----------------------------- T: > Both Kamma and Dukkha were defined by the Great Sage with beings in mind (although there are no beings seen in the paramattha world of the ariyans). Read the following 3 sutta quotes and tell me what you think. (I)[AN 6.63] 'Kamma should be known. The cause by which kamma comes into play should be known. The diversity in kamma should be known. The result of kamma should be known. The cessation of kamma should be known. The path of practice for the cessation of kamma should be known.' Thus it has been said. Why was it said? Intention, I tell you, is kamma. Intending, one does kamma by way of body, speech, and intellect. And what is the cause by which kamma comes into play? Contact... T: So, there is nobody who is responsible to intentions that conditions kamma by way of body, speech, and intellect? ---------------------------- I am glad that you at least recognise the paramattha explanation. This is more than Ven Thanissaro does. Or, if he does recognise it, he believes it is irrelevant. He would agree with you that the Buddha defined kamma and dukkha with beings in mind. Why? Because he cannot (or will not) see the momentary, paramattha, view of the world. In his article "No self or Not self?" he writes: "One of the first stumbling blocks that Westerners often encounter when they learn about Buddhism is the teaching on anatta, often translated as no-self. This teaching is a stumbling block for two reasons. First, the idea of there being no self doesn't fit well with other Buddhist teachings, such as the doctrine of kamma and rebirth: If there's no self, what experiences the results of kamma and takes rebirth?" (end quote) The answer should be obvious to all Dhamma students: "Mere suffering exists, no sufferer is found; The deeds are, but no doer of the deeds is there." (Vis.) In other words; anatta *does* mean no self. And anyone who follows Thanissaro's path is on a very, very wrong path! They should be told so as forcefully as possible. ------------------------------ T: > (II) [MN 61] Rahula, all the priests and contemplatives in the course of the past who purified their bodily acts, verbal acts, and mental acts, did it through repeated reflection on their bodily acts, verbal acts, and mental acts in just this way. All the priests and contemplatives in the course of the future... All the priests and contemplatives at present who purify their bodily acts, verbal acts, and mental acts, do it through repeated reflection on their bodily acts, verbal acts, and mental acts in just this way. Therefore, Rahula, you should train yourself: 'I will purify my bodily acts through repeated reflection. I will purify my verbal acts through repeated reflection. I will purify my mental acts through repeated reflection.' Thus you should train yourself. T: So, you say there is no Rahula who trained himself according to the Buddha's instructions? ----------------------- Yes, of course I do! And I would also say that the Buddha did not exist (in absolute reality). The Buddha said (sorry, no reference) that anyone who sees the Dhamma sees him. (The Dhamma, of course, is the teaching that says there are only the presently arisen namas and rupas). Other ways of seeing him are (were) just conventional - ultimately illusory - ways of seeing. ----------------------------- T: > (III) [SN 56.11] Now this, monks, is the noble truth of stress: Birth is stressful, aging is stressful, death is stressful; sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, and despair are stressful; association with the unbeloved is stressful, separation from the loved is stressful, not getting what is wanted is stressful. In short, the five aggregates for sustenance are stressful. T: So, there is nobody who has dukkha (begining with birth, and followed by sorrow, lamentation, ageing, and despair)? ----------------------------- That's right! As most translators put it: "In brief, the five aggregates of clinging are suffering." I take that to mean that birth, aging, death, sorrow (etc) are to be seen, ultimately, as the five khandhas - the presently arisen conditioned dhammas. ------------------------------------- > > KenH: As an admirer of Ven. Thanissaro you must be aware of his views on anatta. He says it is just a device that stops meditators from thinking about existence and non-existence. He believes that, at parinibbana, consciousness will cross over from the conditioned world, where it is "bound," to the unconditioned world, where it is "unbound." No, I am not familiar with what you wrote above. Can you get the original words of the Venerable with appropriate Web links for me, please? After that we'll discuss. ---------------------------------------- To begin with, there are his articles "No Self or Not Self?" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/notself2.html and "The Not Self Strategy" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/notself.html As for his teachings on "the unbinding of consciousness" I don't have a specific reference so I will leave that to you for now. It is all through his writings. If you want me to look more closely I can find something specific. You might like to read an old post of mine (34782) where I quote another of his descriptions of what happens after crossing over: "The raft has reached the shore, and one can leave it there -- free to go where one likes, in a way that cannot be traced." (end quote) I look forward to your comments, Tep. I hope you can see there are some crucial facts that should be known to all admirers of Thanissaro B. and his famous "Wings to Awakening." Ken H #74919 From: "colette" Date: Fri Aug 3, 2007 4:23 pm Subject: Re: Ro-langs or Vetalas? ksheri3 Good Day connie, I've been taking a few days off and today your msg.'s were the first and only msg.s I read. This one is a delight! Thank you. you seem to have picked up on some things that are very prominent in my "workings". They have been and it seems always will be, prominent, until I resolve the issues. I was away from Chicago last summer and met a Mason that was very interested in my work after we both did a little questioning of each other to discover our similar interests. He was/is a follower, that's it, while I told him that I am a practioner and "I ADORE TESTING THEORIES, applying this the techniques" etc. The problem mainly stems with the "old ways & means" feeling useless and/or left behind, when this is not the case at all. For instance I'm discussing a minor disagreement of terms over the Hinayana and the hinayana. from what I'm discovering, is a very strong foundational influence on the metaphysical aspects of the Theravadan, Mahayana, et al. I ran into a practioner in the U.K., back in 2004, who spent time learning the Golden Dawn System and I guess the Rosicrucians, not sure of the O.T.O., but nevertheless, he made it clear that "he doesn't have the time to work an entire new system out". while I do not exclude others deliberately, I clearly am not going to rest my laurels on ancient systems that have, what I consider, Miss Inerpretations in their entire system. A lie is a lie and if those lies are going to be used as the means to rape me by maintaining my status in poverty, well, then, those lies will be recorded as "their truth and nothing but their truth, so god, you better help them cause I don't see how I can help them". Lets examine a disagreement on the Hinayana that I believe Larry saiys in a gutter phylosophy which then advocates and exhalts his more theravadan views. I tend toward believing that the hinayanas found things, techniques, AVENUES (rue), which although deviate from the orthodox theravadan, they are quite enlightening and free the mind of the useless fetters that bind it this dualism of Western thought. I have no intentions of leaving my predecessors behind I am very determined to maintain my own practice, my own methodology, my own views, etc. The orthodox can be damned if they are so myopic (you know that one-eyed monster called a urethra), that they cling to their sinking ship as if they were zebra muscles or barnicals, then I will sing the Supertramp song: "GOODBYE STRANGER". Also, here, don't misinterpret my meanings, there certainly are A LOT OF APPLICABLE PRACTICES THAT I'VE FOUND IN THE MAHAMUDRA AND DZOGCHEN! While the disagreements may take on heat at times this is to be expected since I'm changing fulcrums, etc. I'm inplementing changes and when tangible things move they create heat, POWA, so it's just managing the heat properly. Bending steal also creates heat which I'm sure our friends in Minnesota will be able to tell is truth. good to talk with you. Hopefully next week I can get back into a little more interaction! thanx for the info, VIPISSANA. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "L G SAGE" wrote: > > dear colette, > > ended up at http://www.unm.edu/~rhayes/download.html i saw a few l-o-o-ong sunsets in new mexico once upon a time. but here, this evening, a few titles caught my eye. his sanskrit ones near the bottom: > Asvaghosha's Buddhacaritam Chapters 1 and 5. > Santideva's Bodhicaryavatara Chapters 1 and 6. > and in the middle of the page these two: > Nagarjuna's appeal, abridged version of an article published in Journal of Indian Philosophy 22:299-378. (1994) <....> #74920 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Aug 3, 2007 8:50 pm Subject: Not Hard to Accept (Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Walking) scottduncan2 Dear Swee Boon, SB: "I find you a strange and weird person." Scott: I'll trade you 'strange' and 'weird' for 'unusual' and 'eccentric' and we have a deal!! Sincerely, Scott. #74921 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Aug 3, 2007 9:35 pm Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge indriyabala Hi KenH, - I appreciate the "completely new teaching" you are trying to educate me. Is this new teaching found only in the Abhidhamma-pitaka but not in the Sutta-pitaka, and why? K: The world, as described by the Buddha, is nothing more than conditioned dhammas arising at one of six doorways in the single, present, moment of consciousness. T: I wonder why our Greatest Teacher never talked about that kind of "single moment" in the Sutta-pitaka. Supposed that the Buddha really described the world that way, a question I have for you is : how much can an ordinary person, who is not an 'ariya puggala', accomplish in that tiny moment? BTW how do you prove such a theory? .......... K: You have referred to practice(patipati) and progress(attainment, patipada) as if they could not exist without a self that practised and a self that attained. T: No, I do not believe that the dhamma practice is for a self (atta that is a soul, or an entity that is permanent and controllable). The practice is for Buddhists, not for emptiness. 'Patipatti' and 'patipadaa' are the Buddha's words in several suttas. He told real people who consisted of naama & ruupa not emptiness, not a soul, to ptactice the Dhamma. In your opinion is AN 6.63 about a "self" who "travels" the path of practice for the "cessation of kamma"? K: Try for a minute not to take that leap of logic, and consider how practice and attainment would be if the entire world was just a single moment of consciousness. They would be what we call a moment of mundane path consciousness (satipatthana) and a moment of supramundane path consciousness (magga-citta). That is what the Visuddhimagga is talking about when it says: "Nibbana is, but not the man that enters it; The Path is, but no traveller on it is seen." ................ T: You are talking about conditioned dhammas here. The idea of a single moment of consciousness is not realistic, since that moment cannot be isolated from a series of prior arisen-and-passed-away consciousnesses that lead to the present moment which, in turn, induces future naama & ruupa to arise, etc. Each consciousness and its concomitants are of course 'aniccam, dukkham, anatta'. The quote from the Vism is a play of words by a literary-wise monk, because Nibbana is not a place or location and the Path is a way of practice, but it is not a physical way like a road for people to travel. T: After the quote from AN 6.63, I asked : "So, there is nobody who is responsible to intentions that condition kamma by way of body, speech, and intellect?" Instead of replying directly, you referred to Ven Thanissaro's question, "If there's no self, what experiences the results of kamma and takes rebirth?" You cleverly answered his question by quoting the Vism as follows: "Mere suffering exists, no sufferer is found; The deeds are, but no doer of the deeds is there." The Venerable Th might have asked if there were no doers of stealing and killing, then how come people got robbed and killed everywhere? T: Therefore, we should not be confused by these two different perspectives, because they are both correct: the paramattha-dhamma view and the conventional view are co-existing. In the world of paramattha principles there are only the four realities, while beings live and die in their world of beings (as defined in the sutta that I quoted earlier). The no self/ not self principle is easily understood in the world of atoms where there are no humans, animals, or things. Yet, in every human, animal, and non-living thing there are atoms and empty spaces! T: The answer to Ven. Thanissaro, in my humble view, is : there is no permanent self (soul) to experience kamma-vipaka except the "body and mind" that are impermanent, suffering and empty of ownership. I will be quite happy if you discuss the two sutta quotes too. .................. >T: So, you say there is no Rahula who trained himself according to the Buddha's instructions? K: Yes, of course I do! And I would also say that the Buddha did not exist (in absolute reality). The Buddha said (sorry, no reference) that anyone who sees the Dhamma sees him. (The Dhamma, of course, is the teaching that says there are only the presently arisen namas and rupas). Other ways of seeing him are (were) just conventional - ultimately illusory - ways of seeing. T: And of course, eventhough there was Rahula, there was no atta as object of clinging -- 'this is me, this is I, this is my self'. The only way of seeing the Buddha is through practicing in accordance with the Teachings so that one knows and sees the conditioned dhammas the way they really are. ................... >T: So, there is nobody who has dukkha (begining with birth, and to be followed by sorrow, lamentation, ageing, and despair)? ------------------ K: That's right! As most translators put it: "In brief, the five aggregates of clinging are suffering." I take that to mean that birth, aging, death, sorrow (etc) are to be seen, ultimately, as the five khandhas - the presently arisen conditioned dhammas. T: I would say opposite to what you said : the five clinging khandhas are dukkha that involves birth, aging, death, sorrow (etc), given that the dhammas are seen the way they really are. But as soon as there is attanuditthi, a wrong view will follow : 'this is me, this I, this is my self'. .................. T: Thank you very much for providing two Web links to Ven. Thanissaro's articles. I have read them before. K: I look forward to your comments, Tep. I hope you can see there are some crucial facts that should be known to all admirers of Thanissaro B. and his famous "Wings to Awakening." T: I did not know you cared this much. As I said earlier, my reply might not be satisfactory. As to his "Wings to Awakening", I like it mostly because there are several valuable suttas for me to benefit from. Concerning his views, I am not in total agreement with everything he wrote. But who am I to criticize any monk who rightly practices the Dhamma? With all things considered, he is one of my most respected monks. Sorry for this unusually long post. Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > > > If you don't mind, Tep, I really would like you to answer the > > > question: "Doesn't anatta mean no one practises?" > #74922 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Aug 3, 2007 5:42 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: satipatthana as island of refuge upasaka_howard Hi, Tep - In a message dated 8/3/07 8:15:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, indriyabala@... writes: > > Hi Howard, - > > Thank you very much for the comment. > > >Howard: > Here's my perspective, Tep: In Ordinary Speak, a very popular > language (LOL!), many people practice. But speaking more technically > (and more literally), no one practices. When it is said that no one > practices, the emphasis is not on the practice but on the alleged > practitioner. The point is that lots of activities and events occur - > lots of phenomena arise, and we refer to all that as "a person > practicing". But there is no entity called a person who, upon > careful inspection, is findable or graspable. There is, in fact, just > the mental superimposition of the percept/concept of "person" upon > the experience of a multitude of dhammas. > > T: It is the same kind of memorized knowledge from Buddhism studies > that I had, Howard. Yes, technically we all know that that the > khandhas, ayatanas, naama &ruupa, and dhatus are 'anatta' -- > not "findable or graspable" or uncontrollable. Therefore, I know that > I should not think of these dhammas as mine, me, or my self. So, > let's do better than that. What should I do in order to turn that > kind of non-ariyan's knowledge into direct knowledge? How can I > abandon "the mental superimposition of the percept/concept > of "person" upon the experience of a multitude of dhammas" ? > > Tep =========================== All I can suggest is sticking with the Buddha's "program". When its effects are eventually all in place, the turning about will occur. In my case, my one "preview experience" at a retreat of a couple hours of utterly no sense-of-self at all was enough to thoroughly convince me that atta-view is plain false. This resulted in enormous, I would even say unshakable, confidence in the Buddhadhamma and an eagerness to continue "all the way" with the practice. As for the mere *feeling* that there is a "me" and that things are "mine," even though we may know this to be nonsense, not believing it in the slightest, that mere sense of "me and mine" - of personal self - will remain as a potential to arise again and again for a long, long time. But it *can* be weakened and eventually fully uprooted. I haven't any doubt as to this. We just need to persevere, Tep. With metta, Howard #74923 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 3, 2007 10:44 pm Subject: I am away nilovg Dear friends, I cannot answer posts, because I am just going away until Wednesday. Nina. #74924 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Aug 3, 2007 11:12 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] e-card from America sarahprocter... Hi James (& Phil), --- buddhatrue wrote: > James: I don't think so, but when I return to Taiwan I may type it > out and post it in installments. I find it to be a very excellent > overview- succinct, informational, and inspiring. ... S: That would be a good idea. I expect you'll be returning around the end of this month? ... > James: Thanks for your wonderful reflections on your past temple > participation! I do find that regularly going to a Buddhist temple, > even if you go with no purpose in mind and just to hang out, to be > very nuturing to Buddhist practice (purification of action and > mind). Do you regularly attend a Buddhist temple in Hong Kong? If > so, what is it like? ... S: Actually, even when I lived in London, I wasn't a 'regular'. I also used to occasionally visit and offer dana at other temples too. In Hong Kong, we've seldom visited the Buddhist temples here for various reasons, one being that none of them are Theravada temples, another being that until recently we've both always been working 6 days a week and preferred rest and to get into the countryside on Sundays. I think it also makes a difference being two of us - never short of Dhamma company! And then there's DSG....! ... > James: Sure, no problem. Thanks for your response. :-) ... S: Send another e-card if you have time. Phil, if you're looking in, send us an e-card from Canada too! Metta, Sarah ======== #74925 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Aug 3, 2007 11:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions, Ch 8, no 8. sarahprocter... Hi Howard & all, I just came across this post of yours again whilst looking for another. I think the following on 'realms of existence' is very well expressed: --- upasaka@... wrote: > Howard: "Yes, but does not "realm of birth" refer ultimately to the paramattha dhammas typically involved? What we call realm of birth is actually a realm of experience. There is no realm per se, but only the dhammas of a particular sort interrelated in particular ways that we *call* the human realm or the animal realm or realm of hungry ghosts or Tusita heaven or Niraya hell. There are differences of type and pattern of experience among these, but the "realities" are the paramattha dhammas, and it seems to me that when we say that place of birth is condition for certain namas, that merely comes down to a way of expressing the effect of kamma. That certain auspicious kamma leads to birth as a human means nothing more or less than that a certain range of experience will be opening up." ... S: This is how I see it. Still only cittas, cetasikas and rupas in various combinations. I'm also glad to read you explaining more about the world of paramattha dhammas in other threads here! Ah yes, the loaf of bread one: H: "I'm not even ceratin that it is proper to think of a loaf of bread as consisting of rupas. I think it is more complicated than that, with the perceived loaf of bread not a "thing" CONSISTING of rupas, but being a concept BASED UPON many perceived rupas, perceived at various times and of varying sorts: sights, smells, touch sensations, and maybe tastes - a mental construct drawing upon and combining a variety of multi-sense-door phenomena." This relates to the point I've been discussing with Han on 'attanuditthi' as referring to any idea of atta, regardless of whether the dhammas are taken for a person or loaf of bread. Nice to be in agreement. Metta, Sarah ======= #74926 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Aug 3, 2007 11:51 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Response to E-card from Bangkok 3 (5) sarahprocter... Dear Han & all, I thanked you in passing for your response on the 'simple approach'. A couple more comments if I may: --- han tun wrote: > - Now, if I must have pa~n~naa and kusala citta for > all my above actions, my 'simple approach' will no > more be simple, and it will become very difficult for > me. Because, I am sure I will not be able to have > pa~n~naa and kusala citta all the time, for whatever I > do, bodily, verbally or mentally. ... S: This is true and good to point out. There cannot be panna and kusala all the time, whatever we do. I don't think there's any suggestion of this, only a suggestion that it's so very helpful to understand more and more about the present dhammas, whatever they are. It's not a matter of making simple approaches complex or changing behaviours in anyway. It's just a matter of developing more panna and sati whilst leading our ordinary lives. ... >There are many, many > times when I do automatically or spontaneously without > ever thinking about pa~n~naa or kusala citta. I do not > think I can aim for perfection, although I agree that > it is very much desirable. ... S: Again, I don't think it's a question of aiming for anything, otherwise there's bound to be more desire, expectation and disappointment as "I" cannot do anything. However, panna can develop even now as we consider more about various dhammas. .... >Besides, with my limited > knowledge and progress, I am not sure whether I can > know if pa~n~naa or kusala citta arises in me at any > given moment. ..... S: So even when there's wondering or doubt, these are dhammas too that can be known at that moment. Anytime, any dhamma. Of course, when panna arises and begins to know dhammas appearing, there's no idea of 'in me' at all. I think it indicates a degree of wisdom to appreciate, as you do, how little is really known 'at any given moment'. .... > - Then what do I do? I am afraid I have no other > choice than doing only those that I can do with my > physical and mental capability, i.e., the 'simple > approach' that I am now doing, within the framework of > what I believe is wholesome. If I do not achieve any > fruits by my simple approach, I will not be able to > help it. My duty is to do what I can to the best of my > ability, and the result is beyond my control. The > result will come, in accordance with the Law of Kamma, > whatever that is due. And I will be happy with that. ... S: Kusala of any kind is good and brings its own good result. If we begin to appreciate more and more that there really is no "I" to do anything, there's even more benefit. Mere dhammas rolling on.... .... > > - This is the End of my response to E-card from > Bangkok 3. In conclusion, I would like to stress on > two points. > > (1) Whatever I have written is a descriptive account > of what I believe and what I am doing, with all my > short-comings and weaknesses. It is by no means > prescriptive. I do not expect others to follow my > example, or to agree with me, or to believe in what > I believe. ... S: As I said before, very helpful and well-written summaries indeed. .... > > (2) I am writing these, not without gratitude to those > who have kindly provided me with guidance and advice > to put me on the right track. Whether I agree with > them or not, I respect their opinion, because > I know that they have done so with all their sincerity > for my benefit. I regard them as my teachers, and for > which act of their kindness > I shall ever remain grateful! ... S: Likewise, Han. I'm grateful to you and all our other friends here for their sincere instruction, whether I always agree with it or not. Briefly on the beads thread, I liked the story from Myanmar very much:-)) Also, I might just point out that A.Sujin doesn't worry or become concerned at all if someone doesn't agree or 'follow' what she says. Most her family don't and it never bothers her. Her elderly father used to listen to another teacher on the radio and TV and that was his 'way'. I'd always have delightful dhamma chats with him too. She knows how very hard the path is and how few people will appreciate the Dhamma on any level. If she thinks she can help at the time, she helps. Then she leaves it to conditions. She appreciates that we all have our own 'ways'. I knew you often agreed just to avoid further probing/debate;-). Metta, Sarah =========== #74927 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Aug 4, 2007 12:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: cetanaa, was: Not Hard to Accept sarahprocter... Hi Howard (Nina & Scott), --- upasaka@... wrote: > > vangorko@... writes: > > > The cetana which accompanies vipakacitta and kiriyacitta merely > > coordinates the tasks of the other dhammas it accompanies, it does > > not 'will' kusala or akusala and it does not motivate wholesome or > > unwholesome deeds. > ======================== H:> I understand what you are saying, and it makes possible cetana > being a > universal. But, as the "cetana of resultant states" is quite different > from > that of kammic states, it is misleading that the term 'cetana' is used > in both > cases. ... S: I understand your point and in a way I think it's a good one. To be more precise, from Nina's 'Conditions' on 'kamma condition': 'There are two kinds of kamma-condition: conascent kamma-condition and asynchronous kamma-condition. Cetanå which arises with each citta directs the tasks of the associated dhammas and conditions these dhammas by way of conascent kamma-condition, sahajaata kammapaccaya 98. The cetanå which is kusala or akusala and which can produce the appropriate results of good deeds or bad deeds later on conditions that result by way of asynchronous kamma-condition, naa.nakkha.nika kamma-paccaya." ... A: What you are suggesting really is that it should be made clear whether it is cetana as conascent kamma-condition (sahajaata kammapaccaya) or cetana as asychronous kamma-condition (naa,nakkha.nika kamma paccaya) that is being referred to. When we stress the universal aspect of cetana (intention), it is the first function of directing the tasks of associated dhammas which arises with every citta which is being stressed. When it is the function which can bring about results later, (what we usually just refer to as kamma), it is only the cetana arising with kusala and akusala states that applies. As with most aspects of the Dhamma, especially the Abhidhamma, we have to be very precise! You might like to check 'cetana' in CMA and quote anything relevant too. Metta, Sarah ========== #74928 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Aug 4, 2007 12:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kaeng Krachan again 1. sarahprocter... Hi Ken O, Great to read your posts and good humour again!! --- Ken O wrote: > Isn't dhamma wonderful. When we try to see I see, the whole world > comes crashing in with existence, craving for being and when we try > to say there is no seeing, then we have craving for non being. Hence > seeing is just seeing, there is no I to see, no one can stop it as > long as kamma induce it and importantly there is seeing (but who is > there to see) hahahahah > > > Cheers, just being paradoxical at times for the fun of it. ... S: Good fun and good points too! Be as paradoxical as you like, ha ha!! Metta, Sarah p.s Are you still working in Singapore? One day I'll surprise you and Swee Boon with a visit as I have a close friend always asking me to visit. ========= #74929 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Aug 4, 2007 12:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Another Observation about Mindfulness sarahprocter... Hi Ken O, I don't think anyone replied:-)) --- Ken O wrote: > just for the fun of it, who breath. If breath could help, so does > birds, cats etc.... breath > > But some said breathing brings mindfulness, then how come there is no > saints in the animal kingdom, > > some said breathing brings concentration that brings wisdom. If > concentration is the way to wisdom, then why do those who perfected > the jhanas cannot be Arahant but birth in the brahma heavens. ... S: All good questions... ... > > panna...is the key...which could only be develop through > investigation, through reflection of the three characteristics... > just like when Buddha investigate the usefullness of self affiction, > it does not work...he went on pondering until kapooo!... what is it > about... he thinks about dependent origination and not > concentration....or focus on breathing.... > > just say the fun of it, hmmm me not going to debate with anyone on > this because I think I have said enough on this :-) ... S: Of course we agree, so nothing to debate. Meanwhile we can relax and enjoy reading the other discussions on breath. .... >> Yahoo! Singapore Answers > Real people. Real questions. Real answers. ... S: This is your new tag-line, Ken O!! Hmmm, sounds interesting:-)) Metta, Sarah ======== #74930 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Aug 4, 2007 12:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What is the wrong view? (References from the MN anthology) sarahprocter... Hi Tep, Thx for all your carefully considered comments in #74841 I don't fully agree with your conclusions, but will leave it there for now. In #74841, you asked at the end about a comment I made referring to direct understanding of other lives: --- Tep Sastri wrote: > S: I think this understanding is therefore dependent on a direct > realization, that of the second stage of insight. > > T: I am sorry? ... S:It was this quote from the Vism which I had in mind. See Nina's message #73180 in which she quotes it: "N: Not an ariyan stage, but sooner, the second stage of insight. One thing is true: through insight doubt disappears, it depends on the strength of a person's insight. As said, at the second stage of tender insight doubt about past and future lives is eliminated, and this does not have to do anything with the fourth jhana as a base for supernatural powers. Insight is always understanding of the present reality, all stages, until enlightenment is attained. I found an interesting passage in Vis. XIX, 5 and 6. It explains how doubt disappears. " .... S: I think her quotes from the Vism in this message are also relevant: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/73232 Let me know if I've misunderstood the point in anyway. Enjoying your discussions with Scott and Ken H. Your ability to always find the suttas you have in mind is most impressive! Metta, Sarah ======= #74931 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Aug 4, 2007 1:44 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness jonoabb Hi Howard --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Jon (and Swee Boon) - ... > Jon, many points that you make in many posts are matters of reasonable > interpretation and opinion, appropriate for serious consideration by others. Kind of you to say so, Howard. From my perspective, I am simply stating the orthodox Theravadan view, which I take to be the texts as interpreted by the commentaries. > But your parenthetical statement here that > anapanasati is a form of samatha bhavana is not a matter of reasonable > interpretation, in my opinion - I see it as simply false. The inclusion of anapanasati in the list of 38 kammatthaana ('field of work') of samatha is there to be seen in the suttas. (The same list, plus an additional 2, is found in the Visuddhimagga.) So I am confident that the statement as it stands is not false ;-)) But your concern is actually in relation to the Anapanasati Sutta in particular... > The Anapanasati Sutta makes it clear that that this cultivation is not > just a form of samatha bhavana, but a complete practice. A pure samatha > bhavana does not bring the four satipatthana to their culmination, but the practice > of anapanasati (as taught by the Buddha, not others) does. The Buddha taught > in that sutta the following: > > "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is of great > fruit, of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & > pursued, brings the four frames of reference to their culmination. The four frames > of reference, when developed & pursued, bring the seven factors for awakening > to their culmination. The seven factors for awakening, when developed & > pursued, bring clear knowing & release to their culmination." > > A direct examinination of the Buddha's description of anapanasati > makes it crystal clear that it is FAR more than a cultivation of samatha. Please > look carefully at the following: Ah, but what you quoted to follow this is not, in my view a *description of anapanasati*. It is the answer given by the Buddha to this question: "Now how is mindfulness of in-&-out breathing developed & pursued so as to be of great fruit, of great benefit?" Let me mention in brief what I understand that answer to be saying, and leave detailed discussion to a later post if necessary. As I understand it, the passage from the Anapanasati Sutta describes how, if anapanasati and insight are both developed, the jhana attained by means of the anapanasati may, by being the object of the insight, become the basis for enlightenment. (This is what is meant by the references in the text to samatha and vipassana being developed in tandem.) So the question being answered is not "What is anapanasati" or even "How is anapanasati developed?", but "How may anapanasati be developed so as to bring one to enlightenment?", which, as it turns out, comes down to the contemporaneous development of anapanasati and insight. Speaking very generally, the suttas do not have a lot to say on the 'how to' of the development of samatha in respect of objects known to the world before the Buddha's enlightenment (such as kasinas, death, kusala, breath, etc), since the skills necessary for the development of samatha to the highest levels of jhana on those objects were already in the public domain, so to speak. Looking forward to your comments. Jon #74932 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Aug 4, 2007 4:12 am Subject: Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness jonoabb Hi Swee Boon --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > > Hi Jon, > > > As I said, you are free to disagree ;-)). However, I cannot add > > anything further unless you specify in what way you think my > > reading is inconsistent with the wording of the sutta. > > You are bringing in new ideas every day in your replies that I don't > even know exactly what your reading of the sutta is anymore. > > What you said in a previous post becomes something else in a newer > post. Maybe you can summarise everything in one big post. Or we can > drop this altogether. You mention 2 options here. But since you have not given any details of the 'new ideas' I am supposed to have been bringing in every day, or changes in what I've said, so that I can respond, I think I know which option you prefer ;-)). I believe I have been consistent throughout our discussion, but you are most welcome to mention any instances of inconsistency you have in mind. For a brief summary of how I see the Anapanasati Sutta and the anapanasati section of DN 22, please see my post #74931 of a short time ago to Howard. Before I sign off, just a reminder that this thread started when you suggested that certain comments of mine (quoted by Nina) had no basis in the commentaries. I have tried to show how that is not the case (of course, you may disagree with my reading of the commentaries). Jon #74933 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Aug 4, 2007 6:04 am Subject: Not Hard to Accept (Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Walking) scottduncan2 Dear Andrew, Thanks for the reply: A: "Hi Scott, you arrogant little Dhamma-discusser!" Scott: I was delayed in responding to the post because, on my way to reply, I saw this lovely little pond, its surface like glass, in which I was able to see my own reflection! I was gazing at myself, considering my handsome visage, when I suddenly fell in! The pond was rather deeper than I expected... A: "How true. And what about this? I recently joined an online discussion forum conducted in a language I have a working knowledge of (but am not fluent in). From time to time, I do experience urges to be sarcastic and "take pot shots" but my language skills are not sufficient for me to follow through with the urges. Hence, I am forced to let the urge subside and I say nothing. Were the discussion in English, I would very likely "give vent". I'm quite happy with this situation. It is teaching me how worthless sarcastic jibes really are. For the moment, I won't translate all this into Abhidhammic terms but could it be that absent or poor language skills can be something of a protection against stronger akusala kamma patha?" Scott: I like that. Nina has reminded me lately of how, some months ago, I became mortified at the number of times I noticed some rather unsavoury dhammas lining up as I tried to reply to various posts - like urges to sarcasm, superiority, smugness, anger, inferiority - you know, all the normal stuff. Aversion conditioned a fantasy that I should not even respond, but Nina pointed out Dhamma which cured me of that particular paralysis - much to the chagrin of all (but to my benefit). I don't know about poor language skills as protection. I speak French as a second language (passably and sort of fluently) and I can still muster some rather ungrammatical akusala speech if I'm not careful. I guess its whether or not it arises that one ends up being careful. Maybe, with practise, you can become a master of sarcasm in this other language! I wonder if Paa.li allows for a 'sarcastic' voice. As far as arrogance goes, or any dhamma kusala or akusala, don't you think its better to know it when its there, in all its manifestations, than to pretend its not? I'm not in any way advocating anarchy when I suggest that there is little to be gained by getting all freaked out when certain things arise in one. Rather, I think, if something is noticed, then one can also notice it go. Studying the Dhamma teaches what is kusala and akusala, and studying the dhammas confirms this. I don't think there's a need to get up in arms about things, rather, just notice that this is a dhamma as well (aversion) and taste its flavour. I'd be interested in the Abhidhamma analysis of your thesis regarding poor language skills as protection. Or was that irony?. Sincerely, Scott. #74934 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Aug 4, 2007 6:04 am Subject: Re: What is the wrong view? (References from the MN anthology) indriyabala Hi Sarah (& Nina) - --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > ... > > I found an interesting passage in Vis. XIX, 5 and 6. It explains how > doubt disappears. > After discerning the material body's condition in this way, he again > discerns the mental body in the way, beginning: 'Due to eye and > visible object eye consciousness arises'(S.II, 72; M1, 111). > When he has thus seen that the occurrence of mentality-materiality is due to condiitons, then he sees that, as now, so in the past too its occurrence was due to conditions, and in the future too its > occurrence will be due to condiitons. > When he sees in this way, all his uncertainty is abandoned, that is > to say, the five kinds of uncertainty about the past stated thus "Was I in the past?...(M.1.8), and also the five kinds of uncertainty about the future states thus 'Shall I be in the future?....>" > .... T: Thanks to Nina for introducing the "second stage of insight"(N: Not an ariyan stage, but sooner, the second stage of insight.). Is it an insight knowledge(vipassana~naana)? What is the Pali term for this kind of attainment? Sarah: One thing is true: through insight doubt disappears, it depends on the strength of a person's insight. As said, at the second stage of tender insight doubt about past and future lives is eliminated, and this does not have to do anything with the fourth jhana as a base for supernatural powers. Insight is always understanding of the present reality, all stages, until enlightenment is attained. T: What about past and future of any conditioned dhamma? Thanks for the passage on "Occurring is always due to a condition", it reminds me of the following quote from MN 2(Sabbasava Sutta) that emphasizes yoniso & ayoniso manasikara. MN 2: "And what are the ideas fit for attention that he does not attend to? Whatever ideas such that, when he attends to them, the unarisen fermentation of sensuality does not arise in him, and the arisen fermentation of sensuality is abandoned; the unarisen fermentation of becoming does not arise in him, and arisen fermentation of becoming is abandoned; the unarisen fermentation of ignorance does not arise in him, and the arisen fermentation of ignorance is abandoned. These are the ideas fit for attention that he does not attend to. Through his attending to ideas unfit for attention and through his not attending to ideas fit for attention, both unarisen fermentations arise in him, and arisen fermentations increase. "This is how he attends inappropriately: 'Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what was I in the past? Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I be in the future?' Or else he is inwardly perplexed about the immediate present: 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where is it bound?' Tep === #74935 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Sat Aug 4, 2007 6:25 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (64) nichiconn Dear Friends, 11. Dvaadasakanipaato 1. Uppalava.n.naatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa part 7 txt: Raajaapi paccantato aagantvaa nakkhatta.m pa.timaanento bahinagare khandhaavaara.m bandhitvaa nisiidi. Atha taa pa~ncasataa itthiyo ra~n~no paccuggamana.m aagantvaa aaha.msu- "tva.m, mahaaraaja, na amhaaka.m saddahasi, amhehi vutta.m akaara.na.m viya hoti, tva.m mahesiyaa upa.t.thaayika.m pakkosaapetvaa pa.tipuccha, daarugha.tika.m te devii vijaataa"ti. Raajaa ta.m kaara.na.m anupaparikkhitvaava "amanussajaatikaa bhavissatii"ti ta.m gehato nikka.d.dhi. Tassaa raajagehato saha nikkhamaneneva padumapupphaani antaradhaayi.msu, sariiracchaviipi viva.n.naa ahosi. Saa ekikaava antaraviithiyaa paayaasi. Atha na.m ekaa vayappattaa mahallikaa itthii disvaa dhiitusineha.m uppaadetvaa "kaha.m gacchasi, ammaa"ti aaha. "Aagantukamhi, vasana.t.thaana.m olokentii vicaraamii"ti. "Idhaagaccha, ammaa"ti vasana.t.thaana.m datvaa bhojana.m pa.tiyaadesi. Pruitt: Then the king came back from the border, and waiting for a [propitious] astral conjunction, he made camp outside [the city] and resided there. Then the 500 women went to meet the king and said, "Great king, you did not believe us. It was as if what we said was impossible. Send for our queen's attendant and question her as to whether your queen bore a stick of wood." The king, without investigating the reason for that, said, "She must be descended from a non-human." And he threw her out of the house. When she departed from the king's house, the lotus flowers disappeared and her skin was pale. She went out into the street all alone. Then a certan old woman who was well on in years saw her and she felt affection as for a daughter, and she said, "Where will you go, my dear?" [The queen] said, "I am a stranger, and I am wandering about looking for lodging." "Come here," [the old lady] said. And giving her lodging, she prepared food for her. Tassaa iminaava niyaamena tattha vasamaanaaya taa pa~ncasataa itthiyo ekacittaa hutvaa raajaana.m aaha.msu- "mahaaraaja, tumhesu yuddha.m gatesu amhehi ga"ngaadevataaya 'amhaaka.m deve vijitasa"ngaame aagate balikamma.m katvaa udakakii.la.m karissaamaa'ti patthita.m atthi, etamattha.m, deva, jaanaapemaa"ti. Raajaa taasa.m vacanena tu.t.tho ga"ngaaya udakakii.la.m kaatu.m agamaasi. Taapi attanaa attanaa gahitakara.n.daka.m pa.ticchanna.m katvaa aadaaya nadi.m gantvaa tesa.m kara.n.dakaana.m pa.ticchaadanattha.m paarupitvaa paarupitvaa udake patitvaa kara.n.dake vissajjesu.m Tepi kho kara.n.dakaa sabbe saha gantvaa he.t.thaasote pasaaritajaalamhi laggi.msu. Tato udakakii.la.m kii.litvaa ra~n~no utti.n.nakaale jaala.m ukkhipantaa te kara.n.dake disvaa ra~n~no santika.m aanayi.msu. While she was living there in this way, the 500 women unanimously said to the king, "Great king, while you were gone to battle, we requested the devataa of the Ganges, 'If your king comes back victorious in battle, we will make an offering [to you] and sport in the water.' Now we are informing you of this, O king." The king was pleased with what they said, and he went to sport in the water of the Ganges. Then [the women] concealed the boxes each of them had taken, took them and went to the river. They put on clothes, each of them, in order to hide their boxes, and jumping into the water, they let the boxes go. Those boxes all went downstream together and stuck in a net that had been spread out. Then, having amused themselves with water sports, when the king came out of the water, those boxes were seen and brought to the king. ===tbc, connie. #74936 From: "nidive" Date: Sat Aug 4, 2007 6:35 am Subject: Not Hard to Accept (Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Walking) nidive Hi Howard, > I think we (all) are likely to be off-base in our sensing at > a distance. Yes, very subjective. > I thank you for your kind words to me, though. I know you are right > about the (little) anger, but I'm not too sure about the arrogance. > I hope you are wrong on that. I hope so too! As I remember the Buddha said somewhere, it takes a very long time to really know a person inside & out. > Does my thinking that you are wrong prove my arrogance? ;-)) Of course not! ;-)) Swee Boon #74937 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Aug 4, 2007 7:01 am Subject: [dsg] Re: satipatthana as island of refuge indriyabala Hi Howard - Thank you again for the second reply I received from you in the past 12 months. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Tep - > ... > All I can suggest is sticking with the Buddha's "program". When its effects are eventually all in place, the turning about will occur. > In my case, my one "preview experience" at a retreat of a couple hours of utterly no sense-of-self at all was enough to thoroughly convince me that atta-view is plain false. This resulted in enormous, I would even say unshakable, confidence in the Buddhadhamma and an eagerness to continue "all the way" with the practice. As for the mere *feeling* that there is a "me" and that things are "mine," even though we may know this to be nonsense, not believing it in the slightest, that mere sense of "me and mine" - of personal self - will remain as a potential to arise again and again for a long, long time. But it *can* be weakened and eventually fully uprooted. I haven't any doubt as to this. > We just need to persevere, Tep. > H: All I can suggest is sticking with the Buddha's "program". When its effects are eventually all in place, the turning about will occur. T: May I ask : how is such approach different from, or similar to, the single moment concept that rules out all "doings" (or practicing) that are preceded by saddha an good intention except listening and "considering" the Teachings? H: As for the mere *feeling* that there is a "me" and that things are "mine," even though we may know this to be nonsense, not believing it in the slightest, that mere sense of "me and mine" - of personal self - will remain as a potential to arise again and again for a long, long time. But it *can* be weakened and eventually fully uprooted. T: Weakening, yes. Fully uprooted, I doubt it. Tep === #74938 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Aug 4, 2007 3:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions, Ch 8, no 8. upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 8/4/07 2:26:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > Hi Howard &all, > > I just came across this post of yours again whilst looking for another. I > think the following on 'realms of existence' is very well expressed: > > > Nice to be in agreement. --------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, it is! :-) Thanks for the kind post, Sarah. ---------------------------------------- > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======================= With metta, Howard #74939 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Aug 4, 2007 3:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: cetanaa, was: Not Hard to Accept upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 8/4/07 3:15:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > Hi Howard (Nina &Scott), > > --- upasaka@... wrote: > > > > >vangorko@... writes: > > > >>The cetana which accompanies vipakacitta and kiriyacitta merely > >>coordinates the tasks of the other dhammas it accompanies, it does > >>not 'will' kusala or akusala and it does not motivate wholesome or > >>unwholesome deeds. > >======================== > H:> I understand what you are saying, and it makes possible cetana > >being a > >universal. But, as the "cetana of resultant states" is quite different > >from > >that of kammic states, it is misleading that the term 'cetana' is used > >in both > >cases. > ... > S: I understand your point and in a way I think it's a good one. To be > more precise, from Nina's 'Conditions' on 'kamma condition': > > 'There are two kinds of kamma-condition: conascent kamma-condition > and asynchronous kamma-condition. Cetanå which arises with each > citta directs the tasks of the associated dhammas and conditions these > dhammas by way of conascent kamma-condition, sahajaata kammapaccaya > 98. The cetanå which is kusala or akusala and which can > produce the appropriate results of good deeds or bad deeds later on > conditions that result by way of asynchronous kamma-condition, > naa.nakkha.nika kamma-paccaya." > ... > A: What you are suggesting really is that it should be made clear whether > it is cetana as conascent kamma-condition (sahajaata kammapaccaya) or > cetana as asychronous kamma-condition (naa,nakkha.nika kamma paccaya) that > is being referred to. > --------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, that would suffice. :-) --------------------------------------------- When we stress the universal aspect of cetana> > (intention), it is the first function of directing the tasks of associated > dhammas which arises with every citta which is being stressed. When it is > the function which can bring about results later, (what we usually just > refer to as kamma), it is only the cetana arising with kusala and akusala > states that applies. > > As with most aspects of the Dhamma, especially the Abhidhamma, we have to > be very precise! ------------------------------------------- Howard: I agree with that. In fact, certain lapses in Abhidhammic precision have motivated negative reactions from me from time to time. There especially is where precision and clarity of definition should be found, it seems to me. ---------------------------------------- > > You might like to check 'cetana' in CMA and quote anything relevant too. ---------------------------------------- Howard: We're going very slowly in our study of that. Perhaps I'll do a look-ahead. :-) --------------------------------------- > > Metta, > > Sarah > ===================== With metta, Howard #74940 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Aug 4, 2007 3:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 8/4/07 4:44:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: > Hi Howard > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > > >Hi, Jon (and Swee Boon) - > ... > > Jon, many points that you make in many posts are matters of > reasonable > >interpretation and opinion, appropriate for serious consideration > by others. > > Kind of you to say so, Howard. From my perspective, I am simply > stating the orthodox Theravadan view, which I take to be the texts as > interpreted by the commentaries. > > > But your parenthetical statement here that > >anapanasati is a form of samatha bhavana is not a matter of > reasonable > >interpretation, in my opinion - I see it as simply false. > > The inclusion of anapanasati in the list of 38 kammatthaana ('field > of work') of samatha is there to be seen in the suttas. (The same > list, plus an additional 2, is found in the Visuddhimagga.) So I am > confident that the statement as it stands is not false ;-)) ----------------------------------------- Howard: It IS a vehicle for cultivating calm. But not solely so. ------------------------------------------ > > But your concern is actually in relation to the Anapanasati Sutta in > particular... > > > The Anapanasati Sutta makes it clear that that this > cultivation is not > >just a form of samatha bhavana, but a complete practice. A pure > samatha > >bhavana does not bring the four satipatthana to their culmination, > but the practice > >of anapanasati (as taught by the Buddha, not others) does. The > Buddha taught > >in that sutta the following: > > > >"Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed &pursued, is of > great > >fruit, of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when > developed & > >pursued, brings the four frames of reference to their culmination. > The four frames > >of reference, when developed &pursued, bring the seven factors for > awakening > >to their culmination. The seven factors for awakening, when > developed & > >pursued, bring clear knowing &release to their culmination." > > > > A direct examinination of the Buddha's description of > anapanasati > >makes it crystal clear that it is FAR more than a cultivation of > samatha. Please > >look carefully at the following: > > Ah, but what you quoted to follow this is not, in my view a > *description of anapanasati*. It is the answer given by the Buddha > to this question: "Now how is mindfulness of in-&-out breathing > developed &pursued so as to be of great fruit, of great benefit?" > > Let me mention in brief what I understand that answer to be saying, > and leave detailed discussion to a later post if necessary. > > As I understand it, the passage from the Anapanasati Sutta describes > how, if anapanasati and insight are both developed, the jhana > attained by means of the anapanasati may, by being the object of the > insight, become the basis for enlightenment. (This is what is meant > by the references in the text to samatha and vipassana being > developed in tandem.) ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Anapanasati cultivates both - in tandem. ---------------------------------------------- > > So the question being answered is not "What is anapanasati" or even > "How is anapanasati developed?", but "How may anapanasati be > developed so as to bring one to enlightenment?", which, as it turns > out, comes down to the contemporaneous development of anapanasati and > insight. ----------------------------------------- Howard: No. The practice of anapansati, as described in that definitive sutta, is a contemporaneous development fosamathaand pa~n~na. ------------------------------------------- > > Speaking very generally, the suttas do not have a lot to say on the > 'how to' of the development of samatha in respect of objects known to > the world before the Buddha's enlightenment (such as kasinas, death, > kusala, breath, etc), since the skills necessary for the development > of samatha to the highest levels of jhana on those objects were > already in the public domain, so to speak. > > Looking forward to your comments. -------------------------------------------- Howard: The core of the sutta consists of the 16 items. To see how this entire sutta describes the practice of anapanasatiand not just applications of it, I suggest you look again at it and see how the words 'breathe' and 'breathing' permeate the material. For convenience, I copy the material right here: _____________ "[1] Breathing in long, he discerns, 'I am breathing in long'; or breathing out long, he discerns, 'I am breathing out long.' [2] Or breathing in short, he discerns, 'I am breathing in short'; or breathing out short, he discerns, 'I am breathing out short.' [3] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to the entire body.'2 He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to the entire body.' [4] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in calming bodily fabrication.'3 He trains himself, 'I will breathe out calming the bodily fabrication.'" [5] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to rapture.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to rapture.' [6] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to pleasure.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to pleasure.' [7] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to mental fabrication.'4 He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to mental fabrication.' [8] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in calming mental fabrication.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out calming mental fabrication.' "[9] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to the mind.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to the mind.' [10] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in satisfying the mind.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out satisfying the mind.' [11] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in steadying the mind.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out steadying the mind. [12] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in releasing the mind.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out releasing the mind.'5 "[13] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on inconstancy.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on inconstancy.' [14] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on dispassion [literally, fading].' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on dispassion.' [15] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on cessation.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on cessation.' [16] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on relinquishment.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on relinquishment.'"This is how mindfulness of in-&-out breathing is developed & pursued so as to be of great fruit, of great benefit. -------------------------------------------------- > > Jon > > ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) #74941 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Aug 4, 2007 3:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: satipatthana as island of refuge upasaka_howard Hi, Tep - In a message dated 8/4/07 10:04:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time, indriyabala@... writes: > Hi Howard - > > Thank you again for the second reply I received from you in the past > 12 months. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: LOL! But who's counting, eh? ;-)) ----------------------------------------------- > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > > >Hi, Tep - > > > ... > > All I can suggest is sticking with the Buddha's "program". > When its effects are eventually all in place, the turning about will > occur. > > In my case, my one "preview experience" at a retreat of a > couple hours of utterly no sense-of-self at all was enough to > thoroughly convince me that atta-view is plain false. This resulted > in enormous, I would even say unshakable, confidence in the > Buddhadhamma and an eagerness to continue "all the way" with the > practice. As for the mere *feeling* that there is a "me" and that > things are "mine," even though we may know this to be nonsense, not > believing it in the slightest, that mere sense of "me and mine" - of > personal self - will remain as a potential to arise again and again > for a long, long time. But it *can* be weakened and eventually fully > uprooted. I haven't any doubt as to this. > >We just need to persevere, Tep. > > > > H: All I can suggest is sticking with the Buddha's "program". When > its effects are eventually all in place, the turning about will occur. > > T: May I ask : how is such approach different from, or similar to, > the single moment concept that rules out all "doings" (or practicing) > that are preceded by saddha an good intention except listening > and "considering" the Teachings? ------------------------------------------- Howard: I find that approach to be largely unfathomable, and to the extent that I do understand it I disagree with it. What I speak of is an intentional practice prompted by the Buddha's practice teachings. It is not passive but proactive, though it *is* subtle and not heavy handed. As for single-moment practice, no activities that I know of occur in zero time. ------------------------------------------- > > H: As for the mere *feeling* that there is a "me" and that > things are "mine," even though we may know this to be nonsense, not > believing it in the slightest, that mere sense of "me and mine" - of > personal self - will remain as a potential to arise again and again > for a long, long time. But it *can* be weakened and eventually fully > uprooted. > > T: Weakening, yes. Fully uprooted, I doubt it. -------------------------------------------- Howard: Really! I'm sorry to hear that. I truly believe that if you simply continue with the practice you will come to "see" things that will give you a confidence that all the defilements *can* be uprooted and the final goal of freedom attained. The full uprooting is bodhi, and it is the pot of gold at the end of the Dhammic rainbow. Please do not despair of eventually reaching the home of arahantship. The journey is long. But so what? Develop both khanti and samvega, and keep on going. I feel sure that the Dhamma is the true and dependable road home. ------------------------------------------ > > Tep > ====================== With metta, Howard #74942 From: "nidive" Date: Sat Aug 4, 2007 7:46 am Subject: Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness nidive Hi Jon, > As I understand it, the passage from the Anapanasati Sutta > describes how, if anapanasati and insight are both developed, the > jhana attained by means of the anapanasati may, by being the object > of the insight, become the basis for enlightenment. Let me summarise: (1) Anapanasati is the method used to attain jhana. (2) The object of insight has got nothing to do with the breath body. (3) Insight is somehow developed by excluding the breath body. (4) The object of insight is the jhana attained by anapanasati. Is this what you have been trying to tell me in DN 22 as well? Swee Boon #74943 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Aug 4, 2007 10:23 am Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge scottduncan2 Dear Tep, Thanks for the reply: T: "This post is getting longer!" Scott: Yeah, man! 'Yaa kho aavuso visaakha cittassa ekaggataa aya.m samaadhi. Cattaaro 'satipa.t.thaanaa samaadhinimittaa. ...' Bh Bodhi: Unification of mind, friend Visaakha, is concentration; the four foundations of mindfulness are the basis of concentration Thanissaro Bh: Singleness of mind is concentration; the four frames of reference are its themes. Me: (message #74862): "So, I would say that satipa.t.thaana is not 'samaadhinimitta', as I think you put it (correct me if I've got this wrong), but that the basis for the concentration that arises with satipa.t.thaana is the nimitta of the objects of satipa.t.thaana." T: "I am not clear how 'the object itself is a nimitta of reality' should be understood..." Scott: This, I think, would be answered by the third category cited by Nina, below: N: "...3. The nimitta of ultimate realities, or the five khandhas. This is the third and more subtle meaning: Visible object falls away immediately and the sign of it remains. This is the nimitta of ultimate realities, sankhaara nimitta...." Scott: As I understand it (corrections please), until development of satipa.t.thaana is further along, what is 'seen' is just shadows of realities. This is because of the rapidity of the arising and falling away of dhammas. Seeing, for example, sees but is long past once, with self, one thinks, 'I'm seeing' (and at this point, one usually says things to one's self like, 'I'm seeing my cat'. And, I think I'm making the point that since, in the Paa.li, the term is 'cittassa ekaggata', we are dealing with momentary concentration - the cetasika, which is a universal arising with each citta. This dhamma has the same object as that taken by citta at that moment and performs the function of focusing on that object, which is nimitta. All this needs scrutiny and correction. T: "There seems to be a missing element in your statement; this might be what Sarah called "we" who "appreciate" and "see" the dhammas. The dhammas are conditioned phenomena that arise and pass away, but it is the series of cittas that are developed to "perform" those 10 functions in An 10.61, I think. Read the following sutta quote and please tell me what you think." (I) At Savatthi. "Monks, any desire-passion with regard to eye- consciousness is a defilement of the mind. Any desire-passion with regard to ear-consciousness... nose-consciousness... tongue- consciousness... body-consciousness... intellect-consciousness is a defilement of the mind. When, with regard to these six bases, the defilements of awareness are abandoned, then the mind is inclined to renunciation. The mind fostered by renunciation feels malleable for the direct knowing of those qualities worth realizing." [SN 27.3: Vi~n~nana Sutta Consciousness] Scott: 'Defilement of the mind' is 'cittasseso upakkileso' in the Paa.li. Bh. Bodhi, in Note 273 (p.1100): "Cittass' eso upakkileso. Spk. A corruption of what mind? The mind of four planes. Admittedly it is so for the mind of the three (mundane) planes, but how is it a corruption of the supramundane mind? By obstructing its arising. For it is a corruption because it does not allow the mind to arise." Scott: '...the mind is inclined to renunciation...' is: "Note 274. Spk: His mind inclines to renunciation (nekkhamaninna.m c' assa citta.m hoti): The mind of serenity and insight inclines to the nine supramundane states. Those things to be realised by direct knowledge (abbhi~n~na sacchikara.niyesu dhammesu): the things pertaining to the six direct knowledges." Scott: I think here, since 'citta' is the word for 'mind', we are dealing with a moment of consciousness. The mental factors, sati, pa~n~na, and cittassa ekaggata, render this moment of consciousness 'malleable' for their combined function. (II) When the mind is concentrated, pure, free from minor defilements, malleable workable not disturbed, he directs the mind for the destruction of desires. He knows this is unpleasant(dukkha), this its arising, this its cessation, and this, the path to the cessation of unpleasantness as it really is. Knows these are desires, this, their rising, this, their cessation and this, the path to their cessation as it really is. His mind that knows and sees thus, is released from sensual desires, from desires `to be' and from ignorant desires. When released, he knows, I'm released, birth is destroyed, the holy life is lived, what should be done is done.There's nothing more to wish. [MN 125: Dantabhumi Sutta] Scott: The Paa.li: So eva.m samaahite citte parisuddhe pariyodaate ana"nga.ne vigatuupakkilese mudubhuute kamma.niiye .thite ane~njappatte aasavaana.m khaya~naa.naaya citta.m abhininnaameti. So ida.m dukkhanti yathaabhuutha.m pajaanaati. Aya.m dukkhasamudayoti yathaabhuuta.m pajaanaati. Aya.m dukkhanirodhoti yathaabhuuta.m pajaanaati. Aya.m dukkhanirodhagaaminiipa.tipadaati yathaabhuuta.m pajaanaati. Ime aasavaati yathaabhuuta.m pajaanaati. Aya.m aasavasamudayoti yathaabhuuta.m pajaanaati. Aya.m aasavanirodhoti yathaabhuuta.m pajaanaati. Aya.m aasavanirodhagaaminiipa.tipadaati yathaabhuuta.m pajaanaati. Tassa eva.m jaanato eva.m passato kaamaasavaapi citta.m vimuccati. Bhavaasavaapi citta.m vimuccati. Avijjaasavaapi citta.m vimuccati. Vimuttasmi.m vimuttamiti ~naa.na.m hoti. Khii.naa jaati, vusita.m brahmacariya.m, kata.m kara.niiya.m, naapara.m itthattaayaati pajaanaati. Scott: The Paa.li is complex here. I'm guessing 'samaahita' is related to 'samaadhi' and the 'concentrated mind' is, again, citta or momentary. This is regarding the characteristics and qualities inherent in a moment of consciousness, where the mind (citta) is conditioned by the cetasikas arising conascently. Also, here, I see 'knows' is 'pajaanaati' which refers to the function of pa~n~naa. How do you see this as being applicable? T: "I think it should a series of arising-and-passing-away cittas (such continuity is wrongly seen as a single citta) that understand and develop the the dhammas from the beginning of the process up to the present moment. The concept of continuity is explained in the Milinda Panha Sutta." Scott: Please say more of the above, if you would. Sincerely, Scott. #74944 From: Ken O Date: Sat Aug 4, 2007 10:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kaeng Krachan again 1. ashkenn2k Hi Sarah Nowadays, time is a luxury to me. Hence I could not participate in detail discussions. Hence I throw in some fun along the way. I think it is difficult to believe that all in a practise is understanding, investigating and pondering about dhamma at the moment for many people. It is hard to believe that when we do that, it is call contemplating or bhavana. I know you would understand what I wrote, in fact most dinosaurs like us would understand. Understanding reality at the moment is something I found that is not a popular practise or subject and easily misunderstood. It is such a simple practise yet difficult one to accept. Until one understands, that all is just reality conditioning each other, then dhamma becomes fun and clear, then there is no confusing in reading sutta even without looking at the commentary. One would be full of confidence in the dhamma especially the Abhidhamma and the commentaries. Nonetheless, there bounds to be dinosaurs again and again to appear until one day it really fades aways just like all cittas. Till then lets be positive about it. If I could be a dinosaur after join DSG, I believe there would be others too. Cheers Ken O p.s.- I am still in Singapore and please tell me in advance if you come to visit. Thanks #74945 From: "colette" Date: Sat Aug 4, 2007 8:59 am Subject: "You know, I don't even know what I'm hopin' to find, runnin' blind" J.Brown ksheri3 Good Morning Group, I've been in a delightful discussion with some our our members here concerning a lot of different ASPECTS of things (rupa) which are and still do, CONDITION other things. As I continue on my merry way I've found that I'm gonna have to give the Kagyu aspects of Buddhism a lot of credit here, eventhough there is a lot of knit-picking that shows in my interaction with the kagyu order on other forums. This is to be expected and is nothing out of the ordinary. With this as the case am I to stop knowing that disagreements create obscurations, that disagreements create heat, aggitate nerves, disquite others' thoughts, etc? Why no. There is no reason to place my my life in the hands of those that have taken an off-ramp on critical and major buddhist pricipals OR am I to wast valueable time arguing over simple terminology that middle-management is locked into by their superiors and dictators? I inted on continuing my study as I have done it and will do it since it is a possibility that there are others out there that view these teachings as so important that they must translate the terminology of "vehicle" into that of a beast of burden THUS (see cause & effect) the practioner REQUIRES that oh-so useful device called BLINDERS which help the practioner see the way of the master carrying the stick which holds the fruit, I mean carrot, that the beast chases after while taking the hallucinating master to where the master has already decided to go? Lets take the words of Kunzig Shamar Rimpoche for a second: "It has been said that the Preliminary Practices are more profound and more important that the main practice. This is because Ngondro creates the necessary conditions for the Mahamudra practice. Mahamudra enables yuou to reach enlightenment within one moment, but in order to do so you first need the proper conditions" How true! Cause & effect or Cause & conditons are the focus since without a foundation you certainly cannot build a bridge, no, a place to exhalt your penthouse, no, a first story of a CONTINUUM, a building.<....>I want toremain focused on the Kagyu and the Mahamudra-Dzogchen. The preliminary practices create the ALL-ENCO9MPASSING thoughts of BODHICITTA and that in itself is an overwhelming concept to realize. Now this boddhicitta could not have been seen as an existant reality if not for the manifestation of the Madhyamaka teachings which show how and why samsara is an illusion. As long as you retain and exhalt the ole boy network, the ways of the past aristocracy,well, then, you are conditioned and confined thus the Madhyamaka will do you no good in recognizing the nature of the mind. gotta go. toodles, colette #74946 From: "colette" Date: Sat Aug 4, 2007 10:14 am Subject: Scalpel please ksheri3 Golod Morning Group, Shinay mediation means "calming" which I interpret to mean that it stills the mind, whihc IS A REQUIREMENT to reach the ROOT CAUSES. Lets get rid of this right now. Okay, I was going to go eslewhere to ask the question which came first the CAUSE or the EFFECT, the CAUSE or the CONDITION? They are both inseperable to the reality, the moment, we experience at that time when we realize it. I'm gonna play along with Kunzig Shamar Rimpoche: "You are in samsara now, and as long as you remian thus, you will experience disturbing emotions. Otherwise, you would be enlightened. In the past, no matter where you mwere born, you experienced various poisons of the mind." So, lets cut to the chase, you experience disturbing thoughts not according to some hallucination that some gluttonous devotees of TORTURE <....> Yogacara if I happen to have any thoughts at all (thinking is certainly a human trait don't you think). I want to eliminate the delusion of a hallucinatory creator diety and ;ursue the Dzogchen-Mahamudra. Lets not forget what a mudra means: it is a position, there are many mudras, particularly indicative of the postures in different iconography of the buddha, THUS, MUDRA when placed as a suffix to MAHA has an EXPLICIT MEANING. Lets check out my research: "Even Bodhissatvas on high levels will exoperience the results of unpourifies actions in the postmeditative phase" Hello. This clearly shows that "disturbances" are not only thoughts but also actions since I'll just get back to portraying the libertine by suggesting we go to Bangkok <....> is that a sweat shop?, so lets forget it for the time, but remember that it exists and that you should not bother playing that game with me lest some of your structures suddenly weaken and fail, <....> to put an end to this: "Anger and jealousy directly affect your Bodhicitta, as does the ego. They are your enemies. The three mind-poisons are the reason why beings are always so aggressive." Enough said, huh? CAre to discuss that one? toodles, colette #74947 From: "Andrew" Date: Sat Aug 4, 2007 5:06 pm Subject: Not Hard to Accept (Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Walking) corvus121 Hi Scott > Scott: I was delayed in responding to the post because, on my way to > reply, I saw this lovely little pond, its surface like glass, in which > I was able to see my own reflection! I was gazing at myself, > considering my handsome visage, when I suddenly fell in! The pond was > rather deeper than I expected... Andrew: I get the allusions ... but am somewhat reminded of a real life scenario. Many years ago, I was in Florence meandering about, dreaming of all the history and art that had been made in that wonderful city. In the middle of these thoughts, a pigeon pooped on my face! The wonderful "story" was suddenly shattered!! > Scott: Nina has reminded me lately of how, some months > ago, I became mortified at the number of times I noticed some rather > unsavoury dhammas lining up as I tried to reply to various posts - > like urges to sarcasm, superiority, smugness, anger, inferiority - you > know, all the normal stuff. Aversion conditioned a fantasy that I > should not even respond, but Nina pointed out Dhamma which cured me of > that particular paralysis - much to the chagrin of all (but to my > benefit). Andrew: I have much to learn from that myself. > I don't know about poor language skills as protection. I speak French > as a second language (passably and sort of fluently) and I can still > muster some rather ungrammatical akusala speech if I'm not careful. I > guess its whether or not it arises that one ends up being careful. > Maybe, with practise, you can become a master of sarcasm in this other > language! I wonder if Paa.li allows for a 'sarcastic' voice. Andrew: I think I was mainly agreeing with your general point that we don't understand alot of the very subtle aspects of what's going on. This is particularly so in our mother tongues where very fine innuendos can come into play. You know the old definition of a diplomat = someone who can tell you to go to hell and make you think you'll enjoy the journey! My experience on this other list has helped me to realise that, when I write in English, I'm not even close to aware of all the akusala dhammas in play. I may write something that is, at face value, helpful and polite - but in actuality it may be laced with poisonous conceit or dosa, which leads very nicely to your next point ... Scott: As far as arrogance goes, or any dhamma kusala or akusala, don't you > think its better to know it when its there, in all its manifestations, > than to pretend its not? Andrew: Absolutely. I think much of the time, though, there is no actual "pretending" (denial), but simply a state of not being aware. > I'm not in any way advocating anarchy when I suggest that there is > little to be gained by getting all freaked out when certain things > arise in one. Rather, I think, if something is noticed, then one can > also notice it go. Studying the Dhamma teaches what is kusala and > akusala, and studying the dhammas confirms this. I don't think > there's a need to get up in arms about things, rather, just notice > that this is a dhamma as well (aversion) and taste its flavour. Andrew: Dame Edna Everidge (a comedian) was on TV last night saying nasty things about her "dysfunctional" daughter. Said Dame Edna: "I hate myself for saying these things - even though they are all true." :)) The advice you give (and, of course, Nina too) is very important. When we begin to become aware of the "darkness" of our citta, it can freak us out and condition dosa in the form known conventionally as self-hate. But that, of course, is just moha - and we need to keep that in mind. > I'd be interested in the Abhidhamma analysis of your thesis regarding > poor language skills as protection. Or was that irony?. Andrew: No, not irony but protection is obviously the wrong word. It may just be testament to the effect of awareness and panna. Poor language skills *force* me to reflect thus: "How do you say *go to hell*?" I reach for the dictionary ... and then I reflect on the state of my present consciousness and its akusala jati ... and before too long, I've closed the dictionary and instead of writing "go to hell, you fool", I write "is that correct? I think the correct answer is ... because ..." Saddha arises! Best wishes Andrew #74948 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat Aug 4, 2007 7:02 pm Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge kenhowardau Hi Tep, ----------- T: > I appreciate the "completely new teaching" you are trying to educate me. ------------ It is the same completely new teaching that I and others have been trying to educate you with since you first joined DSG [who knows how many] years ago. :-) --------------------- T: > Is this new teaching found only in the Abhidhamma-pitaka but not in the Sutta-pitaka, and why? --------------------- It is found in every word of the entire Pali Canon. As I always say (quoting K Sujin, I think): "The Buddha taught satipatthana and every word of his teaching should be understood in terms of satipatthana." ----------------------------- <. . .> T: > I wonder why our Greatest Teacher never talked about that kind of "single moment" in the Sutta-pitaka. ---------------------------- For those who know what to look for it is there as clear as day. I can't say why it not clear for you. -------------------------------------- T: > Supposed that the Buddha really described the world that way, a question I have for you is : how much can an ordinary person, who is not an 'ariya puggala', accomplish in that tiny moment? ---------------------------------------- In the ultimate sense, accomplishment (insight) is just a conditioned dhamma. It arises, performs its functions, and falls away - never to be seen again by men or gods. So it is not worth clinging to. In that way it is the same as the more commonly occurring dhammas (seeing, visible object, hearing etc) that are arising and falling away right now. ---------------------------------- T: > BTW how do you prove such a theory? ---------------------------------- Proof, too, is ultimately just a conditioned dhamma. It is the *fully developed* right-understanding of dhammas (conditioned and unconditioned) that first occurs at the stage of Stream-entry. No one does it or has it; it is just a fleeting conditioned dhamma. Just like now. :-) ------------------ <. . .> T: >No, I do not believe that the dhamma practice is for a self (atta that is a soul, or an entity that is permanent and controllable). The practice is for Buddhists, not for emptiness. 'Patipatti' and 'patipadaa' are the Buddha's words in several suttas. He told real people who consisted of naama & ruupa not emptiness, not a soul, to practice the Dhamma. In your opinion is AN 6.63 about a "self" who "travels" the path of practice for the "cessation of kamma"? ------------------ No, there is no self of any kind in the Dhamma. I am still trying to figure out your views on this matter. You have said that you were 'not in total agreement with everything Thanissaro wrote' but you haven't said whether you were in agreement with his views on self. When Howard wrote (about belief in self): ". . . it *can* be weakened and eventually fully uprooted," you replied, "Weakening, yes. Fully uprooted, I doubt it." So it seems to me you probably are a believer in self. And that would be fine - you are entitled to believe anything you want. However, if, like Thanissaro, you proclaim that this is what the Buddha taught, you will always get an argument from me. :-) Ken H #74949 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Sat Aug 4, 2007 8:36 pm Subject: Help please ~ icchantika concept christine_fo... Hello all, I wonder if anyone can be of assistance with tracing a reference in a Sutta. It concerns the the icchantika concept (beings doomed never to attain liberation) and my feeling that this is unknown in the Pali Nikayas. However, it has been mentioned to me that there is a Pali sutta, a fairly short one, where the Buddha does point to a group of Brahmins and others and say that they will never gain awakening. It was thought to possibly be in SN -- definitely not the DN or the AN and probably not the MN ~ but there are hundreds of pages to scan through to search for it. I had hoped somebody with a good knowledge of the Nikayas and the Dhamma would point me in the right direction. I would love to see what, if anything, the Atthakatha makes of it. with hopeful metta, Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- #74950 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Aug 4, 2007 9:28 pm Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge indriyabala Hi Howard, - Thank you for replying. I apologize for a few rough spots in my earlier message. They are removed in this post. > T: Thank you again for the second reply I received from you in the past 12 months. Howard: LOL! But who's counting, eh? ;-)) T: It was not a panna that did the counting! ............ >T: May I ask : how is such approach different from, or similar to, the single moment concept that rules out all "doings" (or practicing) that are preceded by saddha and good intention -- except listening and "considering" the Teachings? (Tep's note : The above question is polished a little to make it more clear.) Howard: I find that approach to be largely unfathomable, and to the extent that I do understand it I disagree with it. What I speak of is an intentional practice prompted by the Buddha's practice teachings. It is not passive but proactive, though it *is* subtle and not heavy handed. As for single-moment practice, no activities that I know of occur in zero time. T: I also find that it is not easy to accept the single-moment approach (when all the dhammas simultaneously arise with no intention) that rejects all doings/practice/sequential development simply because there are only conditioned dhammas that arise and pass away extremely fast. Lately, Sarah introduced the "shadow of reality" idea that seems like a patch to the failed concept of single moment. ............... T: I must admit that I thought long and hard before writing down that last comment in message # 74937, i.e. "Weakening, yes. Fully uprooted, I doubt it." H: Really! I'm sorry to hear that. I truly believe that if you simply continue with the practice you will come to "see" things that will give you a confidence that all the defilements *can* be uprooted and the final goal of freedom attained. The full uprooting is bodhi, and it is the pot of gold at the end of the Dhammic rainbow. Please do not despair of eventually reaching the home of arahantship. The journey is long. But so what? Develop both khanti and samvega, and keep on going. I feel sure that the Dhamma is the true and dependable road home. T: I want to make it clear that "Fully uprooted, I doubt it." does not mean that I have a doubt about the Buddha's Noble Truths; it is my doubt about the weak practice of householders who are still immerging in the five strands of sensuality (kama-guna). The Buddha compared them to wooden logs that are in water, and so it is unable to catch fire. Tep === #74951 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Aug 4, 2007 9:36 pm Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge indriyabala Hi Howard - Sorry for a typo. > T: ... The Buddha compared them to wooden logs that are in water, >and so it is unable to catch fire. > Please correct the above sentence to read : The Buddha compared them to wooden logs that are in water, and so they are unable to catch fire. Tep === #74952 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Aug 4, 2007 10:03 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: satipatthana as island of refuge upasaka_howard Hi, Tep (and Sarah, and Ken) - In a message dated 8/5/07 12:28:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time, indriyabala@... writes: > Hi Howard, - > > Thank you for replying. I apologize for a few rough spots in my > earlier message. They are removed in this post. > > >T: Thank you again for the second reply I received from you in the > past 12 months. > > Howard: > LOL! But who's counting, eh? ;-)) > > T: It was not a panna that did the counting! > ............ > > >T: May I ask : how is such approach different from, or similar to, > the single moment concept that rules out all "doings" (or practicing) > that are preceded by saddha and good intention -- except listening > and "considering" the Teachings? > > (Tep's note : The above question is polished a little to make it more > clear.) > > Howard: > I find that approach to be largely unfathomable, and to the extent > that I do understand it I disagree with it. What I speak of is an > intentional practice prompted by the Buddha's practice teachings. It > is not passive but proactive, though it *is* subtle and not heavy > handed. As for single-moment practice, no activities that I know of > occur in zero time. > > T: I also find that it is not easy to accept the single-moment > approach (when all the dhammas simultaneously arise with no > intention) that rejects all doings/practice/sequential development > simply because there are only conditioned dhammas that arise and pass > away extremely fast. Lately, Sarah introduced the "shadow of > reality" idea that seems like a patch to the failed concept of single > moment. ---------------------------------------- Howard: I missed the "shadow of reality" statement. Could you say more - or, Sarah, would you care to chime in here? As for "the" single-moment concept, I think there may be more than one such. One notion is that every mindstate occurs arises and ceases in no time at all, and is then immediately followed by "the next mindstate", a situation which can be pictured as ". . . . . . . . . . ......", where each dot represents a zero-duration mindstate, and the gaps between dots are there only to be able to show the separate states, with there really being no gaps. Another concept is that of Ken's which would have to be pictured as a just a single dot, ".", because there is, as he sees it, I believe, but one moment called "now". Neither of these is my perspective on mindstates or on time, and Ken's concept seems to require reality to be static. My view would be pictured by "______________ .....", a continuous, dense, timeline, every point of which is "now" when it is the present time, and at every point of which there is consciousness of some object-content underway along with a variety of other mental operations also going on (the cetasikas), and the bundle of all these mental activities in process at that moment constitutes the mindstate at that moment. ------------------------------------------------- > ............... > > T: I must admit that I thought long and hard before writing down that > last comment in message # 74937, i.e. "Weakening, yes. Fully > uprooted, I doubt it." > > H: Really! I'm sorry to hear that. I truly believe that if you simply > continue with the practice you will come to "see" things that will > give you a confidence that all the defilements *can* be uprooted and > the final goal of freedom attained. The full uprooting is bodhi, and > it is the pot of gold at the end of the Dhammic rainbow. Please do > not despair of eventually reaching the home of arahantship. The > journey is long. But so what? Develop both khanti and samvega, and > keep on going. I feel sure that the Dhamma is the true and dependable > road home. > > T: I want to make it clear that "Fully uprooted, I doubt it." does > not mean that I have a doubt about the Buddha's Noble Truths; it is > my doubt about the weak practice of householders who are still > immerging in the five strands of sensuality (kama-guna). The Buddha > compared them to wooden logs that are in water, and so it is unable > to catch fire. ----------------------------------------- Howard: First of all, Tep, you don't know what practice you had in previous lives. More importantly, you are a householder just now, in this life. What of future lives? And, BTW, there are numerous cases of householders reputed to have become ariyans, certainly stream enterers. Entering the stream (an initial waking from the dream! ;-), would be a darn good accomplishment for this lifetime, would it not? And even if that is not achieved, whatever we DO achieve is to the good. There is no reason to doubt the possibility of *eventually* attaining complete liberation. As for what happens in *this* lifetime, who knows? I can't say for sure what will happen a minute from now! ;-)) We should simply do the best we can. --------------------------------------------- > > > Tep > ======================= With metta, Howard #74953 From: Ken O Date: Sun Aug 5, 2007 2:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Scalpel please ashkenn2k Hi Colette > > "Anger and jealousy directly affect your Bodhicitta, as does the > ego. > They are your enemies. The three mind-poisons are the reason why > beings are always so aggressive." > KO: I thought only greed, anger and ignorance affects one's attainment. Anger and jealousy is only one root :-) cheers Ken O #74954 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Aug 5, 2007 4:05 am Subject: Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness jonoabb Hi Howard --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Jon - ... > > The inclusion of anapanasati in the list of 38 kammatthaana ('field > > of work') of samatha is there to be seen in the suttas. (The same > > list, plus an additional 2, is found in the Visuddhimagga.) First of all a correction from me. The list of kammatthana contained in the Vism is I think the same 40 items as are mentioned in the suttas, so please ignore any mention of a differenece (I was getting confused with the parts of the body!). > > So I am > > confident that the statement as it stands is not false ;-)) > > ----------------------------------------- > Howard: > It IS a vehicle for cultivating calm. But not solely so. > ------------------------------------------ Anapanasati as one of the 40 kammatthaana mentioned in the suttas *is* the cultivation of calm (not, *is a vehicle for* cultivating calm). In that context "anapanasati" is a synonym for "samatha with breath as object". ... > > As I understand it, the passage from the Anapanasati Sutta describes > > how, if anapanasati and insight are both developed, the jhana > > attained by means of the anapanasati may, by being the object of the > > insight, become the basis for enlightenment. (This is what is meant > > by the references in the text to samatha and vipassana being > > developed in tandem.) Let me revise my earlier comment (above) to avoid any possible semantic misunderstandings between us, by using the expression "samatha with breath as object" where that is what is meant. As I understand it, the passage from the Anapanasati Sutta describes how, if both (a) samatha with breath as object and (b) insight are developed, the jhana attained by means of the samatha development may, by being the object of the insight, become the basis for enlightenment. It is important to note, however, that the object of the samatha (i.e., breath) cannot be the object of the insight development. The object of the insight development will be any of the khandhas, elements or ayatanas spoken of in the suttas as being the things (dhammas) that are to be known and understood. Thus although these include the rupas that are taken for breath, they do not include "breath" per se which is a concept. > ------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > Anapanasati cultivates both - in tandem. > ---------------------------------------------- To my understanding, there is no single 'technique' that cultivates both samatha and insight at precisely the same moment. Each form of kusala is to be developed in its own right. What the Anapanasati Sutta describes is the (generally) contemnporaneous development of both. > > So the question being answered is not "What is anapanasati" or even > > "How is anapanasati developed?", but "How may anapanasati be > > developed so as to bring one to enlightenment?", which, as it turns > > out, comes down to the contemporaneous development of anapanasati and > > insight. > > ----------------------------------------- > Howard: > No. The practice of anapansati, as described in that definitive sutta, > is a contemporaneous development fosamathaand pa~n~na. > ------------------------------------------- As I've said, the practice described in the sutta is the (generally) contemporaneous development of samatha with breath as object and insight. > -------------------------------------------- > Howard: > The core of the sutta consists of the 16 items. To see how this entire > sutta describes the practice of anapanasati and not just applications of it, I > suggest you look again at it and see how the words 'breathe' and 'breathing' > permeate the material. For convenience, I copy the material right here: You are perhaps using the term "anapanasati" as a synonym for what is described in the sutta. Is that the case (in other words, do you have a definition of "anapanasati" apart from the descripton contained in the material quoted)? Jon #74955 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Aug 5, 2007 4:19 am Subject: Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness jonoabb Hi Swee Boon --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > > Hi Jon, > > > As I understand it, the passage from the Anapanasati Sutta > > describes how, if anapanasati and insight are both developed, the > > jhana attained by means of the anapanasati may, by being the object > > of the insight, become the basis for enlightenment. > > Let me summarise: > > (1) Anapanasati is the method used to attain jhana. > (2) The object of insight has got nothing to do with the breath body. > (3) Insight is somehow developed by excluding the breath body. > (4) The object of insight is the jhana attained by anapanasati. Well, something like that. Let me deal with each point in order. <(1) Anapanasati is the method used to attain jhana.> "Anapanasati" is the textual term for samatha with breath (in-and-out breathing) as object. Samatha with breath as object may be developed to the level of jhana. <(2) The object of insight has got nothing to do with the breath body.> The object of mundane insight is any dhamma, that is to say, any of the khandhas, dhatus or ayatanas mentioned in the suttas. However, these do not include 'breath' or 'in-and-out breathing', the object of anapanasati, which is a concept. <(3) Insight is somehow developed by excluding the breath body.> No. In the development of insight, there is no need for anything to be 'excluded'. <(4) The object of insight is the jhana attained by anapanasati.> If both samatha with breath as object and insight have been developed to high levels, an immediately past jhana citta may be taken as the object of the insight consciousness. > Is this what you have been trying to tell me in DN 22 as well? To my undestanding, the anapanasati section of DN 22 deals with a similar scenario. Hoping this clarifies. Jon #74956 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Sun Aug 5, 2007 4:56 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (64) nichiconn dear Friends, 11. Dvaadasakanipaato 1. Uppalava.n.naatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa part 8 txt: Raajaa kara.n.dake oloketvaa "ki.m, taataa, kara.n.dakesuu"ti aaha. "Na jaanaama, devaa"ti. So te kara.n.dake vivaraapetvaa olokento pa.thama.m mahaapadumakumaarassa kara.n.daka.m vivaraapesi. Tesa.m pana sabbesampi kara.n.dakesu nipajjaapitadivasesuyeva pu~n~niddhiyaa a"ngu.t.thato khiira.m nibbatti. Sakko devaraajaa tassa ra~n~no nikka"nkhabhaavattha.m antokara.n.dake akkharaani likhaapesi- "ime kumaaraa padumavatiyaa kucchimhi nibbattaa baaraa.nasira~n~no puttaa, atha ne padumavatiyaa sapattiyo pa~ncasataa itthiyo kara.n.dakesu pakkhipitvaa udake khipi.msu, raajaa ima.m kaara.na.m jaanaatuu"ti. Pruitt: When the king saw the boxes, he asked, "What's in those boxes, friends?" "We don't know, O king," they said. He had the boxes opened and looked inside. The first box he had opened was Prince Mahaa-Paduma's. Now on the day all of them were put in the boxes, milk arose on their thumbs through the power of their merit. Sakka, the king of devas, had an inscription written inside the boxes so the king would have no doubts: "These boys were born from the womb of Padumavatii and are the sons of the King of Baaraa.nasii. But the 500 women who are co-wives of Padumavati threw them into boxes and threw them in the water. O king, know about this deed." Kara.n.dake viva.tamatte raajaa akkharaani vaacetvaa daarake disvaa mahaapadumakumaara.m ukkhipitvaa vegena rathe yojetvaa "asse kappetha, aha.m ajja antonagara.m pavisitvaa ekaccaana.m maatugaamaana.m piya.m karissaamii"ti paasaadavara.m aaruyha hatthigiivaaya sahassabha.n.dika.m thapetvaa nagare bheri.m caraapesi- "yo padumavati.m passati, so ima.m sahassa.m ga.nhaatuu"ti. As soon as the boxes were open, the king had the inscriptions read, and seeing the boys, he lifted up Prince Mahaa-Paduma and said, "Quickly harness the horses and hitch up the chariot. Today, I will enter the town and make life pleasant for certain womenfolk." After going to his excellent palace, he placed a pile of a thousand coins on an elephant's neck, and he had the kettledrum sent through the town [announcing:] "Whoever has seen Padumavatii will receive these thousand [coins]." Ta.m katha.m sutvaa padumavatii maatu sa~n~na.m adaasi- "hatthigiivato sahassa.m ga.nha, ammaa"ti. "Naaha.m evaruupa.m ga.nhitu.m visahaamii"ti aaha. Saa dutiyampi tatiyampi vutte "ki.m vatvaa ga.nhaami, ammaa"ti aaha. "'Mama dhiitaa padumavati.m devi.m passatii'ti vatvaa ga.nhaahii"ti. Saa "ya.m vaa ta.m vaa hotuu"ti gantvaa sahassaca"nko.taka.m ga.nhi. Atha na.m manussaa pucchi.msu- "padumavati.m devi.m passasi, ammaa"ti? "Aha.m na passaami, dhiitaa kira me passatii"ti aaha. Te "kaha.m pana saa, ammaa"ti vatvaa taaya saddhi.m gantvaa padumavati.m sa~njaanitvaa paadesu nipati.msu. Tasmi.m kaale saa "padumavatii devii ayan"ti ~natvaa "bhaariya.m vata itthiyaa kamma.m kata.m, yaa eva.mvidhassa ra~n~no mahesii samaanaa evaruupe .thaane niraarakkhaa vasii"ti aaha. When she heard this, Padumavatii gave a sign to her mother and said, "Take the thousand [coins] from the elephant's neck, mother." "I would not dare take anything like that," she said. [Padumavatii] spoke to her mother a second and a third time, and [the old woman] said, "What shall I say when I take it, daughter?" "Say, 'My daughter has seen Queen Padumavati,' and take [the coins]," [Padumavatii] said. [The old woman replied,] "Whatever you say," and she went and took the casket with a thousand [coins]. Then the men asked her, "Have you seen Queen Padumavatii, ma'am?" She said, "I haven't seen her; my daughter says she saw her." "But where is she, ma'am?" they asked. Then going with her, they recognized Padumavatii and fell down at her feet. As soon as they recognized that she was Queen Padumavatii, they said, "A serious wrong indeed has been done to this woman, that the queen of such a king should live in such a place without protection." ..to be continued, connie #74957 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Aug 5, 2007 6:36 am Subject: Not Hard to Accept (Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Walking) scottduncan2 Dear Andrew, Thanks for the reply: Andrew: "I get the allusions ... but am somewhat reminded of a real life scenario. Many years ago, I was in Florence meandering about, dreaming of all the history and art that had been made in that wonderful city. In the middle of these thoughts, a pigeon pooped on my face! The wonderful "story" was suddenly shattered!!" Scott: I remember another kind of shattering that occurred for me upon learning that, as far as satipa.t.thaana is concerned, its objects are only paramattha dhammas and that these include no concepts at all. Until that moment, I'd been considering concepts as 'real.' To learn that all the things I used to take as real are merely thought about took the wind out of the sails of self. Very cool. Andrew: "...I think much of the time, though, there is no actual "pretending" [not to be aware of various emotions] (denial), but simply a state of not being aware." Scott: Yeah, this is a very good point. It got me thinking. From a purely mundane perspective, and taking the purely conceptual notion of 'psychological defense' which you raise above ('denial'), in a technical sense, all psychological defense is considered to go on 'unconsciously,' that is, outside of 'awareness'. And so, using the rather primitive (in the sense of operating early in a developmental timeline) defense of denial, this would be an unconscious negating of that which is actually present. The function of this unconscious mental operation would be to allow 'the person' to be 'consciously unaware' of a certain emotion or idea. I think here 'awareness' is used in the mundane sense as well, and does not necessarily refer to sati. 'Unconscious' implies outside of 'conscious control' - sort of a faux no-control, since it is still assumed that unconscious aspects of self are regulating defensive operations. It was hard to figure out what exactly satipa.t.thaana is. I couldn't see the forest for the trees for awhile and I finally figured out that it was somewhat an artifact of an occupational hazard I was dealing with. Psychotherapy is a rather contemplative and introspective process, obviously. In working as a psychotherapist - in long-term psychoanalytically-oriented psychotherapy - I've had to learn to pay as close attention as possible to as many of the thoughts (fantasies), feelings, etc., as were coming up in me during any given session - the counterpart to that which the patient was doing. This was, of course, in the service of interpreting meaning and of 'understanding' - mundane 'insight' - but all about a self both considered to be real. When reading about satipa.t.thaana and the four foundations there was all the mention of feelings, thoughts etc. and I tended to rather rigidly compartmentalise and ignore the work I do for the reason that on the job, this was all about self. Lately, and these discussions with Swee Boon have helped, there has been an integration of these so-called two worlds. A: "The advice you give (and, of course, Nina too) is very important. When we begin to become aware of the "darkness" of our citta, it can freak us out and condition dosa in the form known conventionally as self-hate. But that, of course, is just moha - and we need to keep that in mind." Scott: There are factors at play which prevent awareness of the darkness of citta. I think, just for example (since we were part of this by reading it) that Swee Boon was truly mortified at what he thought was a certain hideousness of mine he felt he had glimpsed. I think that Howard was also truly alarmed that Swee Boon might see some arrogance in him. I'm not commenting on whether or not these qualities exist in these people, but I will suggest that we all have hideousness and arrogance and any other manner of akusala to contend with. One could list a couple of mundane psychological defenses which can account conceptually for the experience of mortification at what seems to be outside of one's self - denial, projection, and what have you - but this might be beside the point. When satipa.t.thaana arises its object is known, not for its place in the psyche, not for its 'meaning' in the broader tapestry of a self with history, but only for its inherent characteristics. Andrew: "...It may just be testament to the effect of awareness and panna. Poor language skills *force* me to reflect thus: "How do you say *go to hell*?" I reach for the dictionary ... and then I reflect on the state of my present consciousness and its akusala jati ... and before too long, I've closed the dictionary and instead of writing "go to hell, you fool", I write "is that correct? I think the correct answer is ... because ... Saddha arises!" Scott: Yeah, the proof is in the pudding. Good point! Sincerely, Scott. #74958 From: "nidive" Date: Sun Aug 5, 2007 8:35 am Subject: Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness nidive Hi Jon, > <(1) Anapanasati is the method used to attain jhana.> > "Anapanasati" is the textual term for samatha with breath (in-and- > out breathing) as object. Samatha with breath as object may be > developed to the level of jhana. > <(2) The object of insight has got nothing to do with the breath > body.> > The object of mundane insight is any dhamma, that is to say, any of > the khandhas, dhatus or ayatanas mentioned in the suttas. However, > these do not include 'breath' or 'in-and-out breathing', the object > of anapanasati, which is a concept. > <(3) Insight is somehow developed by excluding the breath body.> > No. In the development of insight, there is no need for anything > to be 'excluded'. > <(4) The object of insight is the jhana attained by anapanasati.> > If both samatha with breath as object and insight have been > developed to high levels, an immediately past jhana citta may be > taken as the object of the insight consciousness. The commentary says that the meditator having emerged from the jhanas may lay hold of either the respiration body or the factors of jhanas. -------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/soma/wayof.html Having emerged from the absorption, he lays hold of either the respiration body or the factors of absorption. -------------------------------------------------------------------- So I think your reading of the sutta is perfectly valid. But I am interested in the former, that is the respiration body. -------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/soma/wayof.html There the meditating worker in respiration [assasapassasa kammika] examines the body (rupa) thinking thus: Supported by what is respiration? Supported by the basis [vatthunissita]. The basis is the coarse body [karajja kaya]. The coarse body is composed of the Four Great Primaries and the corporeality derived from these [cattari mahabhutani upadarupañca]. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Do you think this sort of contemplation is possible without having attained the jhanas through anapanasati? Another question: Why is an immediately past jhana citta not a concept? Swee Boon #74959 From: "nidive" Date: Sun Aug 5, 2007 9:13 am Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge nidive Hi Ken H, > ---------------------------------- > T: > BTW how do you prove such a theory? > ---------------------------------- > > Proof, too, is ultimately just a conditioned dhamma. It is the > *fully developed* right-understanding of dhammas (conditioned and > unconditioned) that first occurs at the stage of Stream-entry. No > one does it or has it; it is just a fleeting conditioned dhamma. > Just like now. :-) In A Critical Analysis of the Jhanas in Theravada Buddhist Meditation by Henepola Gunaratana, the author listed the various cittas that occur at the moments of stream entry. http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/scrnguna.pdf Page 186 Moment 01: Bhavanga (life-continuum) Moment 02: Vibration Moment 03: Cutting Off Moment 04: Mind Door Moment 05: Moment of Preliminary Work (parikamma) Moment 06: Moment of Access (upacara) Moment 07: Moment of Conformity (anuloma) Moment 08: Moment of Change-of-Lineage (gotrabhu) Moment 09: Magga Citta Moment 10: Phala Citta Moment 11: Phala Citta Moment 12: Bhavanga Moment 13: Bhavanga Moment 14: Bhavanga Moment 15: Bhavanga Moment 16: Bhavanga Moment 17: Bhavanga How does one know that the magga citta has just occurred? Why does the mind go into life-continuum mode right after the phala cittas? Is it possible to review that fleeting moment of magga citta after coming out of life-continuum mode? How does one do it? Just some curious questions. Let me know if you know. Swee Boon #74960 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Aug 5, 2007 9:22 am Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge indriyabala Hi Howard (Sarah, Nina, KenH, Scott) - Your message (#74952) gives me a clear description of your perception of the so-called "intentional practice" that has not been warmly accepted by your peers yet. But I thank you for the food for thought. ............... Howard: I missed the "shadow of reality" statement. Could you say more - or, Sarah, would you care to chime in here? T: Scott was the first person who introduced me to it. It started with Nina's DSG message # 59993 where she talked about the so-called three kinds of nimitta(sign). One of them is "the nimitta of ultimate realities" [Nina : "This is the third and more subtle meaning: Visible object falls away immediately and the sign of it remains. This is the nimitta of ultimate realities, sankhaara nimitta...."]. It sounds smooth and good! But again, like the accumulation concept, smooth and good as it seems, it is just one more conceptual concept being added to the already "unfathomable" and "heavy handed" single moment approach, as you put it. Well, just sit back and enjoy listening and considering the "new" teachings (Kenh's word, not mine)-- don't worry about puting them into practice and drop your intention as well. More philosophical concepts are coming soon. Then Sarah in DSG #65848 went one step futher to coin up the term "shadow of reality" [Sarah: "What is left all the time after the dhamma has fallen away is the sign, like the sign of visible object or sound. But each one has fallen away already. It's a shadow of reality."] .......... Howard: As for "the" single-moment concept, I think there may be more than one such. One notion is that every mindstate occurs arises and ceases in no time at all, and is then immediately followed by "the next mindstate", a situation which can be pictured as ". . . . . . . . . . ......", where each dot represents a zero- duration mindstate, and the gaps between dots are there only to be able to show the separate states, with there really being no gaps. Another concept is that of Ken's which would have to be pictured as a just a single dot, ".", because there is, as he sees it, I believe, but one moment called "now". Neither of these is my perspective on mindstates or on time, and Ken's concept seems to require reality to be static. My view would be pictured by "______________ .....", a continuous, dense, timeline, every point of which is "now" when it is the present time, and at every point of which there is consciousness of some object-content underway along with a variety of other mental operations also going on (the cetasikas), and the bundle of all these mental activities in process at that moment constitutes the mindstate at that moment. T: Let me have fun too ! Here is my conceptual view that is an extension of yours into the time-and-space domain of 4 dimensions (x, y, z, time). Imagine consciousness -- a vinnana dhatu, as a continuous deterministic variable whose states span the 4-dimensional space. The z-axis represents different levels from the lowest(down to hell?) to the highest (which corresponds to the arahant level). Each XY-plane represents connected regions of consciousnesses whose qualities (measured by kusala cetasikas) are of the same level. Each region represents a unique combination of certain qualities(cetasikas) and they are different from other qualities on the same level (or height). At a given moment (time instant) each point in the 4- dimensional space is the same as your consciousness point in time, which is "now" for a given being, like you or me. When there is right practice according to the Dhamma (i.e. the 8 magga), the present "point" of consciousness gets developed so that its state changes to another point in the 4-dimensional space -- e.g. to another region of the same level, or to a region in a higher level. I am not going to ramble further. I hope you get the picture. ........... Howard: First of all, Tep, you don't know what practice you had in previous lives. More importantly, you are a householder just now, in this life. What of future lives? And, BTW, there are numerous cases of householders reputed to have become ariyans, certainly stream enterers. Entering the stream (an initial waking from the dream! ;-), would be a darn good accomplishment for this lifetime, would it not? And even if that is not achieved, whatever we DO achieve is to the good. There is no reason to doubt the possibility of *eventually* attaining complete liberation. As for what happens in *this* lifetime, who knows? I can't say for sure what will happen a minute from now! ;-)) We should simply do the best we can. T: The "eventual goal" will become a reality (e.g. entering the Stream, like you said) when there is a contant progress in the practice (paatipada = following the right path) by right effort, guided by right view and right mindfulness. And, importantly, we have to develop the second factor of the path that involves nekhamma. Practicing nekhamma means "emancipation from worldliness, freedom from lust, craving & desires, dispassionateness". In other words, we have to be like a wooden log that is dry enough to start to catch fire. Then it will be "a darn good accomplishment for this lifetime". Thank you for the conversation (that I now stop the counting). Tep === #74961 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Aug 5, 2007 5:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 8/5/07 7:08:41 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: > Hi Howard > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > > >Hi, Jon - > ... > >>The inclusion of anapanasati in the list of 38 kammatthaana > ('field > >>of work') of samatha is there to be seen in the suttas. (The > same > >>list, plus an additional 2, is found in the Visuddhimagga.) > > First of all a correction from me. The list of kammatthana contained > in the Vism is I think the same 40 items as are mentioned in the > suttas, so please ignore any mention of a differenece (I was getting > confused with the parts of the body!). > > >>So I am > >>confident that the statement as it stands is not false ;-)) > > > >----------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > It IS a vehicle for cultivating calm. But not solely so. > >------------------------------------------ > > Anapanasati as one of the 40 kammatthaana mentioned in the suttas > *is* the cultivation of calm (not, *is a vehicle for* cultivating > calm). > > In that context "anapanasati" is a synonym for "samatha with breath > as object". > > ... > >>As I understand it, the passage from the Anapanasati Sutta > describes > >>how, if anapanasati and insight are both developed, the jhana > >>attained by means of the anapanasati may, by being the object of > the > >>insight, become the basis for enlightenment. (This is what is > meant > >>by the references in the text to samatha and vipassana being > >>developed in tandem.) > > Let me revise my earlier comment (above) to avoid any possible > semantic misunderstandings between us, by using the expression > "samatha with breath as object" where that is what is meant. > > As I understand it, the passage from the Anapanasati Sutta describes > how, if both (a) samatha with breath as object and (b) insight are > developed, the jhana attained by means of the samatha development > may, by being the object of the insight, become the basis for > enlightenment. ------------------------------------------- Howard: Jon, one has to read the sutta itself. There is no mention of taking jhana as object of insight. Although I do think that jhana in the Buddha's sense is involved (rapture and pleasure pointing towards that), jhana is not explicitly mentioned and is not what is mentioned as attended to per se. What is mentioned are the breath and its characteristics, the body, rapture, pleasure, mental fabrication(s), mind (states of mind, I presume), impermanence, dispassion, and relinquishement. The bottom line, Jon, is that for me it is crystal clear that what is taught in the Anapanasati Sutta is a means of cultivating samatha and vipassana, with there not being the slightest doubt as to the latter. It is a means of cultivating all the enlightenment factors. ------------------------------------------------ > > It is important to note, however, that the object of the samatha > (i.e., breath) cannot be the object of the insight development. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Nor the body, nor the mind. But cultivating what you like to call the realities underlying these most assuredly can be, and it is they that do become the object of insight development as the meditation proceeds. What is the Satipatthana Sutta about, Jon? Cultivation of vipassana, no? Look at that sutta! Do you view it also as teaching a purely samatha meditation? Look at the beginning of that sutta, Jon: ______________________ Thus have I heard. At one time the Blessed One was living in the Kurus, at Kammasadamma, a market-town of the Kuru people.Then the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus as follows: "This is the only way, O bhikkhus, for the purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow and lamentation, for the destruction of suffering and grief, for reaching the right path, for the attainment of Nibbana, namely, the Four Arousings of Mindfulness." The Four Arousings of Mindfulness "What are the four? "Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu lives contemplating the body in the body, ardent, clearly comprehending (it) and mindful (of it), having overcome, in this world, covetousness and grief; he lives contemplating the feelings in the feelings, ardent, clearly comprehending (them) and mindful (of them), having overcome, in this world, covetousness and grief; he lives contemplating consciousness in consciousness, ardent, clearly comprehending (it) and mindful (of it), having overcome in this world covetousness and grief; he lives contemplating mental objects in mental objects, ardent, clearly comprehending (them) and mindful (of them), having overcome, in this world, covetousness and grief." Mindfulness of Breathing "And how, O bhikkhus, does a bhikkhu live contemplating the body in the body? "Here, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu, gone to the forest, to the foot of a tree, or to an empty place, sits down, bends in his legs crosswise on his lap, keeps his body erect, and arouses mindfulness in the object of meditation, namely, the breath which is in front of him."Mindful, he breathes in, and mindful, he breathes out. He, thinking, 'I breathe in long,' he understands when he is breathing in long; or thinking, 'I breathe out long,' he understands when he is breathing out long; or thinking, 'I breathe in short,' he understands when he is breathing in short; or thinking, 'I breathe out short,' he understands when he is breathing out short. "'Experiencing the whole body, I shall breathe in,' thinking thus, he trains himself. 'Experiencing the whole body, I shall breathe out,' thinking thus, he trains himself. 'Calming the activity of the body, I shall breathe in,' thinking thus, he trains himself. 'Calming the activity of the body, I shall breathe out,' thinking thus, he trains himself."Just as a clever turner or a turner's apprentice, turning long, understands: 'I turn long'; or turning short, understands: 'I turn short'; just so, indeed, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu, when he breathes in long, understands: 'I breathe in long'; or, when he breathes out long, understands: 'I breathe out long'; or, when he breathes in short, he understands: 'I breathe in short'; or when he breathes out short, he understands: 'I breathe out short.' He trains himself with the thought: 'Experiencing the whole body, I shall breathe in.' He trains himself with the thought: 'Experiencing the whole body, I shall breathe out.' He trains himself with the thought: 'Calming the activity of the body I shall breathe in.' He trains himself with the thought: 'Calming the activity of the body I shall breathe out.' "Thus he lives contemplating the body in the body internally, or he lives contemplating the body in the body externally, or he lives contemplating the body in the body internally and externally. He lives contemplating origination-things in the body, or he lives contemplating dissolution-things in the body, or he lives contemplating origination-and-dissolution-things in the body. Or indeed his mindfulness is established with the thought: 'The body exists,' to the extent necessary just for knowledge and remembrance, and he lives independent and clings to naught in the world. Thus, also, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu lives contemplating the body in the body." --------------------------------------------------------------- The > object of the insight development will be any of the khandhas, > elements or ayatanas spoken of in the suttas as being the things > (dhammas) that are to be known and understood. Thus although these > include the rupas that are taken for breath, they do not include "breath" > per se which is a concept. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: The meditation begins with what is ordinarily known to the meditator - "the breath". As the meditation proceeds - as attention becomes more precise, concentration and energy stronger, and clarity greater, "the breath" disappears and only the rupas of warmth and cold, movement, subtle roughness, softness, and so on arise and pass away. The breath, as opposed to a mind-created kasina image, has ongoing experiential realities as its basis, and it is that well groundedness of the breath percept/concept that makes it so suitable for an in-tandem cultivation. There is no ambiguity in this sutta as to its teaching a means of vipassana bhavana, but aside from that, Jon, if you would but work with anapanasati practice for an extended period of time, you would see for yourself that this is in fact the case. ------------------------------------------------------ > > >------------------------------------------------ > >Howard: > > Anapanasati cultivates both - in tandem. > >---------------------------------------------- > > To my understanding, there is no single 'technique' that cultivates > both samatha and insight at precisely the same moment. Each form of > kusala is to be developed in its own right. --------------------------------------------------- Howard: I couldn't care less what happens at "each moment". If there is rapid switching back & forth, so what? Also, Jon, do you not recall the sutta An 4.170 about the four forms of concentration? There Ananda teaches the following: _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ "Friends, whoever — monk or nun — declares the attainment of arahantship in my presence, they all do it by means of one or another of four paths. Which four? "There is the case where a monk has developed insight preceded by tranquillity. As he develops insight preceded by tranquillity, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it — his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. "Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity preceded by insight. As he develops tranquillity preceded by insight, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it — his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. "Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity in tandem with insight. As he develops tranquillity in tandem with insight, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it — his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. "Then there is the case where a monk's mind has its restlessness concerning the Dhamma [Comm: the corruptions of insight] well under control. There comes a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, and becomes unified & concentrated. In him the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it — his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Anapanasati falls into the third, in-tandem, approach. ------------------------------------------------ > > What the Anapanasati Sutta describes is the (generally) > contemnporaneous development of both. ----------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, the in-tandem development of samatha and vipassana. Are we now agreeing, Jon?? What in the world are you talking about, Jon? I don't get it! ------------------------------------------ > > >>So the question being answered is not "What is anapanasati" or > even > >>"How is anapanasati developed?", but "How may anapanasati be > >>developed so as to bring one to enlightenment?", which, as it > turns > >>out, comes down to the contemporaneous development of anapanasati > and > >>insight. > > > >----------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > No. The practice of anapansati, as described in that > definitive sutta, > >is a contemporaneous development of samatha and pa~n~na. > >------------------------------------------- > > As I've said, the practice described in the sutta is the (generally) > contemporaneous development of samatha with breath as object and > insight. > > >-------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > The core of the sutta consists of the 16 items. To see how > this entire > >sutta describes the practice of anapanasati and not just > applications of it, I > >suggest you look again at it and see how the words 'breathe' and > 'breathing' > >permeate the material. For convenience, I copy the material right > here: > > You are perhaps using the term "anapanasati" as a synonym for what is > described in the sutta. Is that the case (in other words, do you > have a definition of "anapanasati" apart from the descripton > contained in the material quoted)? ------------------------------------------- Howard: Anapanasati, best rendered in English, I believe, by "mindfulness with breathing," iswhat is described in that sutta, most especially by the 16 items Ihave twice listed. --------------------------------------------- > > Jon > > ====================== With metta, Howard P.S. Jon, I haven't anything further to add on this, so I guess we might consider ending this thread at this point. If there is anything additional you wish to say, of course please go ahead, with you having the last word. #74962 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Aug 5, 2007 5:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: satipatthana as island of refuge upasaka_howard Hi, Tep - In a message dated 8/5/07 12:23:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, indriyabala@... writes: > Hi Howard (Sarah, Nina, KenH, Scott) - > > Your message (#74952) gives me a clear description of your perception > of the so-called "intentional practice" that has not been warmly > accepted by your peers yet. But I thank you for the food for thought. > ............... > > Howard: I missed the "shadow of reality" statement. Could you say > more - or, Sarah, would you care to chime in here? > > T: Scott was the first person who introduced me to it. > It started with Nina's DSG message # 59993 where she talked about the > so-called three kinds of nimitta(sign). One of them is "the nimitta > of ultimate realities" [Nina : "This is the third and more subtle > meaning: Visible object falls away immediately and the sign of it > remains. This is the nimitta of ultimate realities, sankhaara > nimitta...."]. It sounds smooth and good! But again, like the > accumulation concept, smooth and good as it seems, it is just one > more conceptual concept being added to the already "unfathomable" > and "heavy handed" single moment approach, as you put it. > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: To set straight the record, Tep, I didn't use the term 'heavy-handed' with regard to the "single moment approach". In discussing the intentional approach based on what I understand as the Buddha's practice teachings, I characterized it by saying "It is not passive but proactive, though it *is* subtle and not heavy handed." My point was that though it is an intentional practice, it is a subtle and not heavy-handed one. I was not contrasting it with anything else at that point, but just speaking in defense of it. ------------------------------------------ Well, just > > sit back and enjoy listening and considering the "new" teachings > (Kenh's word, not mine)-- don't worry about puting them into practice > and drop your intention as well. More philosophical concepts are > coming soon. > > Then Sarah in DSG #65848 went one step futher to coin up the > term "shadow of reality" [Sarah: "What is left all the time after the > dhamma has fallen away is the sign, like the sign of visible object > or sound. But each one has fallen away already. It's a shadow of > reality."] > .......... > > Howard: As for "the" single-moment concept, I think there may be more > than one such. One notion is that every mindstate occurs arises and > ceases in no time at all, and is then immediately followed by "the > next mindstate", a situation which can be pictured > as ". . . . . . . . . . ......", where each dot represents a zero- > duration mindstate, and the gaps between dots are there only to be > able to show the separate states, with there really being no gaps. > Another concept is that of Ken's which would have to be pictured as a > just a single dot, ".", because there is, as he sees it, I believe, > but one moment called "now". > Neither of these is my perspective on mindstates or on time, and > Ken's concept seems to require reality to be static. > > My view would be pictured by "______________ .....", a continuous, > dense, timeline, every point of which is "now" when it is the present > time, and at every point of which there is consciousness of some > object-content underway along with a variety of other mental > operations also going on (the cetasikas), and the bundle of all these > mental activities in process at that moment constitutes the mindstate > at that moment. > > T: Let me have fun too ! Here is my conceptual view that is an > extension of yours into the time-and-space domain of 4 dimensions (x, > y, z, time). > > Imagine consciousness -- a vinnana dhatu, as a continuous > deterministic variable whose states span the 4-dimensional space. The > z-axis represents different levels from the lowest(down to hell?) to > the highest (which corresponds to the arahant level). Each XY-plane > represents connected regions of consciousnesses whose qualities > (measured by kusala cetasikas) are of the same level. Each region > represents a unique combination of certain qualities(cetasikas) and > they are different from other qualities on the same level (or > height). At a given moment (time instant) each point in the 4- > dimensional space is the same as your consciousness point in time, > which is "now" for a given being, like you or me. When there is right > practice according to the Dhamma (i.e. the 8 magga), the > present "point" of consciousness gets developed so that its state > changes to another point in the 4-dimensional space -- e.g. to > another region of the same level, or to a region in a higher level. I > am not going to ramble further. I hope you get the picture. ------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes. It is also clear to me that neither of us should take any of these pictures very seriously. We shouldn't overthink the matter, because we really don't know what we are talking about! LOLOL! ------------------------------------------- > ........... > > Howard: First of all, Tep, you don't know what practice you had in > previous lives. More importantly, you are a householder just now, in > this life. What of future lives? And, BTW, there are numerous cases > of householders reputed to have become ariyans, certainly stream > enterers. Entering the stream (an initial waking from the dream! ;-), > would be a darn good accomplishment for this lifetime, would it not? > And even if that is not achieved, whatever we DO achieve is to the > good. > There is no reason to doubt the possibility of *eventually* attaining > complete liberation. As for what happens in *this* lifetime, who > knows? I can't say for sure what will happen a minute from now! ;-)) > We should simply do the best we can. > > T: The "eventual goal" will become a reality (e.g. entering the > Stream, like you said) when there is a contant progress in the > practice (paatipada = following the right path) by right effort, > guided by right view and right mindfulness. And, importantly, we have > to develop the second factor of the path that involves nekhamma. > Practicing nekhamma means "emancipation from worldliness, freedom > from lust, craving &desires, dispassionateness". In other words, we > have to be like a wooden log that is dry enough to start to catch > fire. Then it will be "a darn good accomplishment for this lifetime". > > Thank you for the conversation (that I now stop the counting). ----------------------------------- Howard: ;-)) ----------------------------------- > > Tep > ================== With metta, Howard #74963 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Aug 5, 2007 10:42 am Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge indriyabala Hi KenH (and aother members) - A wise friend once said, "There are four types of people. 1. They think they know but they do not. 2. They think they know and they really know. 3. They think they don't know and they don't know. 4. They think they don't know but they actually know. So, only 50% of people have the right knowing. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > ----------- > T: > I appreciate the "completely new teaching" you are trying to > educate me. > ------------ > > It is the same completely new teaching that I and others have been > trying to educate you with since you first joined DSG [who knows how > many] years ago. :-) > > --------------------- > T: > Is this new teaching found only in the Abhidhamma-pitaka but not > in the Sutta-pitaka, and why? > --------------------- > > It is found in every word of the entire Pali Canon. As I always say > (quoting K Sujin, I think): "The Buddha taught satipatthana understanding of conditioned dhammas> and every word of his teaching > should be understood in terms of satipatthana." > > ----------------------------- > <. . .> > T: > I wonder why our Greatest Teacher never talked about that kind > of "single moment" in the Sutta-pitaka. > ---------------------------- > > For those who know what to look for it is there as clear as day. I > can't say why it not clear for you. > > -------------------------------------- > T: > Supposed that the Buddha > really described the world that way, a question I have for you is : > how much can an ordinary person, who is not an 'ariya puggala', > accomplish in that tiny moment? > ---------------------------------------- > > In the ultimate sense, accomplishment (insight) is just a conditioned > dhamma. It arises, performs its functions, and falls away - never to > be seen again by men or gods. So it is not worth clinging to. In > that way it is the same as the more commonly occurring dhammas > (seeing, visible object, hearing etc) that are arising and falling > away right now. > > ---------------------------------- > T: > BTW how do you prove such a theory? > ---------------------------------- > > Proof, too, is ultimately just a conditioned dhamma. It is the *fully > developed* right-understanding of dhammas (conditioned and > unconditioned) that first occurs at the stage of Stream-entry. No > one does it or has it; it is just a fleeting conditioned dhamma. Just > like now. :-) > > ------------------ > <. . .> > T: >No, I do not believe that the dhamma practice is for a self (atta > that is a soul, or an entity that is permanent and controllable). The > practice is for Buddhists, not for emptiness. 'Patipatti' > and 'patipadaa' are the Buddha's words in several suttas. He told > real people who consisted of naama & ruupa not emptiness, not a soul, > to practice the Dhamma. > > In your opinion is AN 6.63 about a "self" who "travels" the path of > practice for the "cessation of kamma"? > ------------------ > > No, there is no self of any kind in the Dhamma. > > I am still trying to figure out your views on this matter. You have > said that you were 'not in total agreement with everything Thanissaro > wrote' but you haven't said whether you were in agreement with his > views on self. When Howard wrote (about belief in self): ". . . it > *can* be weakened and eventually fully uprooted," you > replied, "Weakening, yes. Fully uprooted, I doubt it." > > So it seems to me you probably are a believer in self. And that would > be fine - you are entitled to believe anything you want. However, > if, like Thanissaro, you proclaim that this is what the Buddha > taught, you will always get an argument from me. :-) > > Ken H > ............ T: I am sorry to disappoint you, Ken. But any conversation is a two- way street. When there two different interpretations of the Dhamma, you have to have the right vision (yathabhuta dassana) in order to make a correct judgement. You seem to believe that you have the right vision and any view that is not exactly as yours must be wrong. In the future you are welcome to butt into any conversation I may have with anyone here anytime, Ken. Your argument will always be treated politely with no insult or blaming, regardless of the qualities of your opinion. Tep === #74964 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Aug 5, 2007 10:49 am Subject: [dsg] Re: satipatthana as island of refuge indriyabala Hi, Howard - I acknowledge that you did not use the term "heavy-handed" with regard to the "single moment approach", and that it was my misunderstanding. Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Tep - > > Howard: > To set straight the record, Tep, I didn't use the term 'heavy-handed' with regard to the "single moment approach". In discussing the intentional approach based on what I understand as the Buddha's practice teachings, I characterized it by saying "It is not passive but proactive, though it *is* subtle and not heavy handed." My point was that though it is an intentional practice, it is a subtle and not heavy-handed one. I was not contrasting it with anything else at that point, but just speaking in defense of it. > ------------------------------------------ #74965 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Aug 5, 2007 12:48 pm Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge indriyabala Dear Scott, - Realizing the time-consuming disadvantage of a longer-and-longer conversation due to diversification, I will focus only on the main points. Yet, by keeping in mind that we both are humbly trying to learn from the Dhamma discussion and that so far we have been able to stay away from the self demon (who may jump out and insult a victim anytime), may I suggest that we go slowly and patiently until we reach a point of marginal return? ............... T: I agree with you that seeing sees but is long past. That seeing continues because of continuity of perception and consciousness -- the same idea why we perceive "we" are the "same persons" as the ones posting in a photograph. Scott: I think I'm making the point that since, in the Paa.li, the term is 'cittassa ekaggata', we are dealing with momentary concentration - the cetasika, which is a universal arising with each citta. This dhamma has the same object as that taken by citta at that moment and performs the function of focusing on that object, which is nimitta. All this needs scrutiny and correction. T: One meaning of nimitta is : it is an object of Kammatthana (e.g. kasina). We know now that satipatthana is a samadhinimitta, but I don't know why you think it is the object of samadhi. In my opinion it is nimitta in the sense of being the supporting condition for concentration (MN 117 also makes it clear). Another meaning of satipatthana as samdhinimitta IMHO is that it is a concentration's sign (like those colorful lights on the horizon before the Sun rises are the nimitta of Sunrise). Please correct me anytime. ............... Scott: -- (defilement of the mind) is a corruption because it does not allow the mind to arise. -- Those things to be realised by direct knowledge (abbhi~n~na sacchikara.niyesu dhammesu): the things pertaining to the six direct knowledges." T: Thanks. ............... Scott: I think here, since 'citta' is the word for 'mind', we are dealing with a moment of consciousness. The mental factors, sati, pa~n~na, and cittassa ekaggata, render this moment of consciousness 'malleable' for their combined function. T: It seems that all the time you are talking about the realities that are seen only by at least the Nonreturners. Does "a moment of consciousness" mean the time instant between the arising and passing away of a citta? You have said that moment of time is very short. Now, if that moment is very short, how can a non-ariyan meditator abandon "the defilements of awareness" so that the mind "feels malleable for the direct knowing of those qualities worth realizing"? And if people like you and me cannot attain direct knowing because there is no time for the mind to become "malleable", then we are hopeless. Right? ............. T: "I think it should be a series of arising-and-passing-away cittas (such continuity is wrongly seen as a single citta) that understand and develop the the dhammas from the beginning of the process up to the present moment. The concept of continuity is explained in the Milinda Panha Sutta." Scott: Please say more of the above, if you would. T: Yes. The idea about "contnuity" of consciousness is found here : http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/sbe35/sbe3505.htm#page_63 1. The king said: 'He who is born, Naagasena, does he remain the same or become another?' 'Neither the same nor another.' 'Give me an illustration.' 'Now what do you think, O king? You were once a baby, a tender thing, and small in size, lying flat on your back. Was that the same as you who are now grown up?' 'No. That child was one, I am another.' 'If you are not that child, it will follow that you have had neither mother nor father, no! nor teacher. You cannot have been taught either learning, or behaviour, or wisdom. What, great king! is the mother of the embryo in the first stage different from the mother of the embryo in the second stage, or the third, or the fourth? Is the mother of the baby a different person from the mother of the grown-up man? Is the person who goes to school one, and the same when he has finished his schooling another? Is it one who commits a crime, another who is punished by having his hands or feet cut off?' 'Certainly not. But what would you, Sir, say to that? ' The Elder replied: 'I should say that I am the same person, now I am grown up, as I was when I was a tender tiny baby, flat on my back. For all these states are included in one by means of this body.' 'Give me an illustration.' 'Suppose a man, O king, were to light a lamp, would it burn the night through?' 'Yes, it might do so.' 'Now, is it the same flame that burns in the first watch of the night, Sir, and in the second?' 'No.' 'Or the same that burns in the second watch and in the third?' 'No.' 'Then is there one lamp in the first watch, and another in the second, and another in the third?' 'No. The light comes from the same lamp all the night through.' 'Just so, O king, is the continuity of a person or thing maintained. One comes into being, another passes away; and the rebirth is, as it were, simultaneous. Thus neither as the same nor as another does a man go on to the last phase of his self-consciousness.' 'Give me a further illustration.' 'It is like milk, which when once taken from the cow, turns, after a lapse of time, first to curds, and then from curds to butter, and then from butter to ghee. Now would it be right to say that the milk was the same thing as the curds, or the butter, or the ghee?' 'Certainly not; but they are produced out of it.' 'Just so, O king, is the continuity of a person or thing maintained. One comes into being, another passes away; and the rebirth is, as it were, simultaneous. Thus neither as the same nor as another does a man go on to the last phase of his self-consciousness.' 'Well put, Nâgasena!' .................. Tep === #74966 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Aug 5, 2007 6:04 pm Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge kenhowardau Hi Swee Boon, Thanks for the questions. I can't imagine why you would direct them to me, though. I am hardly the scholarly type. You would do better to ask someone else. But thanks for thinking of me. :-) Ken H > > > > Proof, too, is ultimately just a conditioned dhamma. It is the > > *fully developed* right-understanding of dhammas (conditioned and > > unconditioned) that first occurs at the stage of Stream-entry. No > > one does it or has it; it is just a fleeting conditioned dhamma. > > Just like now. :-) > > In A Critical Analysis of the Jhanas in Theravada Buddhist Meditation > by Henepola Gunaratana, the author listed the various cittas that > occur at the moments of stream entry. > > http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/scrnguna.pdf > > Page 186 > > Moment 01: Bhavanga (life-continuum) > Moment 02: Vibration > Moment 03: Cutting Off > Moment 04: Mind Door > Moment 05: Moment of Preliminary Work (parikamma) > Moment 06: Moment of Access (upacara) > Moment 07: Moment of Conformity (anuloma) > Moment 08: Moment of Change-of-Lineage (gotrabhu) > Moment 09: Magga Citta > Moment 10: Phala Citta > Moment 11: Phala Citta > Moment 12: Bhavanga > Moment 13: Bhavanga > Moment 14: Bhavanga > Moment 15: Bhavanga > Moment 16: Bhavanga > Moment 17: Bhavanga > > How does one know that the magga citta has just occurred? > > Why does the mind go into life-continuum mode right after the phala > cittas? > > Is it possible to review that fleeting moment of magga citta after > coming out of life-continuum mode? How does one do it? > > Just some curious questions. Let me know if you know. > > Swee Boon #74967 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Aug 5, 2007 6:27 pm Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge scottduncan2 Dear Tep, Thanks for the reply: T: "I agree with you that seeing sees but is long past. That seeing continues because of continuity of perception and consciousness -- the same idea why we perceive "we" are the "same persons" as the ones posing in a photograph." Here is what Suan Lu Zaw (Abhidhammika) said on http://www.abhidhamma.org/ regarding this issue of 'continuity': "When we look at the two phrases 'pave.nisambandhavasena' and 'pave.nivasena' in their commentary paragraph, they convey the same sense. This is confirmed by the subcommentary's interpretation. Yathaa pana padiipassa jalato jaataa ta.m ta.m vaµµippadesa.m anatikkamitvaa tattha tattheva bhijjati, atha ca pana pave.nisambandhavasena sabbaratti.m jalito padiipoti vuccati, evamidhaapi pave.nivasena ayampi kaayo eva.m ciraµµhitiko viya katvaa dassito. Section 61, Assutavaasuttava.n.nanaa, Nidaanasa.myutta.m In the flame simile, through serial linking, the flame appears to us as the same burning flame. As the flame burns, so is this body also shown to appear as if existing for a long time through serial arisings. Here we notice that the serial linking responsible for the events of the flame matches with the serial arisings responsible for the events of the body. Thus, we can equate the serial linking with the serial arisings. This is exactly what the subcommentary on this suttam does..." Scott: And so, to me, 'continuity' is the illusion, and the ultimate, ongoing situation is one of contiguity. I believe the Abhidhamma clarification is that there is no gap between the ceasing of one moment and the arising of the next. I'll get textual support if you wish. I believe this is consistent with the Milinda Panha, which I really like and am glad you appended it. T: "One meaning of nimitta is : it is an object of Kammatthana (e.g. kasina). We know now that satipatthana is a samadhinimitta, but I don't know why you think it is the object of samadhi. In my opinion it is nimitta in the sense of being the supporting condition for concentration (MN 117 also makes it clear). Another meaning of satipatthana as samdhinimitta IMHO is that it is a concentration's sign (like those colorful lights on the horizon before the Sun rises are the nimitta of Sunrise). Please correct me anytime." Scott: I'm not sure we've clarified that 'satipa.t.thaana is a samaadhinimitta.' I think that, as you say, the notion of supporting condition has validity. Also, since the cetasika known as concentration arises with each citta, at the moment of satipa.t.thaana, this concentration is functioning to focus on the object. T: "It seems that all the time you are talking about the realities that are seen only by at least the Nonreturners. Does "a moment of consciousness" mean the time instant between the arising and passing away of a citta? You have said that moment of time is very short. Now, if that moment is very short, how can a non-ariyan meditator abandon "the defilements of awareness" so that the mind "feels malleable for the direct knowing of those qualities worth realizing"? And if people like you and me cannot attain direct knowing because there is no time for the mind to become "malleable", then we are hopeless. Right?" Scott: No, sorry Tep, I disagree. Here's why. Whether insight is tender or well-developed this has, in my opnion, no bearing on the ultimate nature of reality. It is, from the beginning as it comes to be seen as dependent on the strength of developed insight. Its always just naama, ruupa, and Nibbaana. The reality of things does not change as development proceeds; development allows for a closer and closer glimpse of reality as it is until the end. The malleability of the mind is by the moment, given the right collection of dhammas. One moment can condition the next. Just because the moment of consciousness you refer to as 'the Nonreturner' is able to penetrate to the level we can only discuss theoretically does not in the least mean that things are not that way prior to that moment. They are always that way. They are that way now. Why should this be discouraging? Development is possible. I'll stop. Thanks, Tep. Sincerely, Scott. #74968 From: "Andrew" Date: Sun Aug 5, 2007 6:32 pm Subject: Not Hard to Accept (Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Walking) corvus121 Hi Scott > Scott: I remember another kind of shattering that occurred for me upon > learning that, as far as satipa.t.thaana is concerned, its objects are > only paramattha dhammas and that these include no concepts at all. > Until that moment, I'd been considering concepts as 'real.' To learn > that all the things I used to take as real are merely thought about > took the wind out of the sails of self. Very cool. Andrew: There is a lot of shattering going on in this thread. Maybe we should adjourn to a Greek cafe and start throwing plates?? Seriously, I was shattered by anusaya. Why, I don't know. We're all brought up with the homespun wisdom that we are all "creatures of habit" - but I don't think we ever truly get it (and certainly not in an anatta sense). I once read about a neuroscience experiment years ago at the Uni of Pennsylvania (?). The scientists had decided that they at last had the technology to determine the point at which a conscious decision is made. To their surprise, they found that the body was preparing to carry out an action *before* their equipment registered the making of a "conscious choice". The idea that there is no controlling "me" "shaping my destiny", that the process is driven by conditions and tendencies outside of "my" awareness (alot of them "hideous") was quite a jolt! The example I gave before of poor language skills meaning I had to take dictionary pauses and this allowing me to reflect is an example of the Buddha's advice to Rahula (that Phil often quotes) that you should reflect before you do things. Great advice to be followed, but I feel that it has to be read in a conditionality context and the conditions for it don't often arise, do they? [the same point is made against utilitarian ethics theories that require a "weighing up" of stakeholder interests before a reasoned choice is made - humans, it is argued, just don't behave in that way as a rule]. Scott: When satipa.t.thaana arises its object is known, not for its place in > the psyche, not for its 'meaning' in the broader tapestry of a self > with history, but only for its inherent characteristics. > Andrew: I wonder if this is too simplistic? Do the inherent characterisitics include the hetu, the relational aspects, the anusayas etc. In asking this, I recognise that, as soon as you start weaving this web, it is very easy to come to a conclusion that "I am the sum of all this fluctuating process" i.e. atta view via the back door. Best wishes Andrew #74969 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Aug 5, 2007 6:04 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Help please ~ icchantika concept lbidd2 Hi Chris, "Iccha" means desire or wish. You can find two instances of it in SN under the second index heading for "desire". However, it isn't used in the sense of "icchantika", a being incapable of ever attaining liberation. You can find this sense (but not the word) at SN II,17,32 (p. 691 in my edition) regarding Devadatta, who attempted to overthrow the Buddha: "Because his mind was overcome and obsessed by gain, honour, and praise, Devadatta's wholesome root was cut off"333. Note 333 ...Spk explains this to mean that the wholesome roots have been cut off to such an extent that Devadatta is incapable of taking rebirth in heaven or of achieving the path and fruit; it does not mean that his wholesome roots have been permanently eradicated." L: It is unclear to me whether Devadatta is permanently cut off from nibbana, or only cut off in his present life. Larry #74970 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Aug 5, 2007 8:27 pm Subject: Scott-Break scottduncan2 Dear All, Going camping for a few days. See you later. Sincerely, Scott. #74971 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Aug 6, 2007 12:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: satipatthana as island of refuge sarahprocter... Hi Tep & Howard, --- Tep Sastri wrote: > T: Paramattha-dhamma principles are enclosed within the Four Noble > Truths. The path (patipada) leading to the extinction of sufferring -- > Nibbana -- is the Fourth Noble Truth. > So it is the association with the wisdom (of the Buddha and ariyans) > that has penetrated the Four Noble Truths, the hearing, the > confidence, the wise attention to such, the development of sati and > panna in order that the indriyasamvara is developed, the > characteristics of dhammas fully penetrated, the enlightenment > factors fulfilled that leads to attainment/enlightenment. > > Now, I think, it sounds like a thunder to my ear. ... S: Good, and you've paraphrased it well here, I think. ... > .................. > > S: Seriously, the Dhamma in general and any part of it which touches > on 'our practice' or 'belief systems' is bound to arouse deep > emotions at times. Like Nina mentioned with Lodewijk's outbursts. I'm > sure it's common and only passing dhammas, not anyone's. Soon gone:). > > T: Very well said, Sarah. ... S: Good to be in agreement, Tep. In the same popular thread, I also liked Howard's summary on 'people and practice': H: "In Ordinary Speak, a very popular language (LOL!), many people practice. But speaking more technically (and more literally), no one practices. When it is said that no one practices, the emphasis is not on the practice but on the alleged practitioner. The point is that lots of activities and events occur - lots of phenomena arise, and we refer to all that as "a person practicing". But there is no entity called a person who, upon careful inspection, is findable or graspable. There is, in fact, just the mental superimposition of the percept/concept of "person" upon the experience of a multitude of dhammas." ... S: This is why bhavana (mental development/practice) refers to the development of panna and associated dhammas, not a person doing anything. Do we all agree on this as well? Metta, Sarah ========= #74972 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Aug 6, 2007 12:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Walking and General Deportment of the Body sarahprocter... Hi Azita, --- gazita2002 wrote: > Sanna is interesting, > it arises with every citta and remembers all sorts of weird things, > but more importantly it is anatta.. have been listening to one of > the discussion from Bkk and sanna was the topic. Robk was saying how > he thought feeling was easier to distinguish, but if it wasnt for > sanna maybe the feelings would be much different eg. if > events/situations are not remembered then certain feelings would not > arise. What do you think? ... S: Yes, I think that feelings are more apparent, but as you say, are very closely related to and dependent on sanna. Not just events/situations remembered, but fleeting visible objects, sounds, odours, tastes and tactile objects too. (Of course, there are also feelings arising with the vipaka cittas too). .... > > I do like what Scott has written. It is so important to be > reminded again and again that 'I' is a concept - this 'self concept' > has been accumulated for sooooo long, that it is not going to be > eradicated in a hurry. ... Right! ... <..> > azita; mmmm, I think its true. I dont have to have the sleepless > nites that Zoe is experiencing; however, shes coping well. He's a > cute little bub, and I'm probably biased. Now that's all conceptual, > in reality......... :-)) ... S: Yes, in reality, sanna marking away and lots of associated thinking and feelings. Still, very glad to hear all are doing well. Metta, Sarah ========= #74973 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Aug 5, 2007 11:57 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Help please ~ icchantika concept sarahprocter... Hi Chris & Larry, --- LBIDD@... wrote: > Hi Chris, > > "Iccha" means desire or wish. .... S: Yes, that's all, I believe you'll find in the Pali canon. Most unlikely to find any icchantika concept as Chris described there. A new term to me, but just checked this dict definition: http://www.hm.tyg.jp/~acmuller/dicts/ddb/cache/b4e00-95e1-63d0.html cchantika " * The notion of icchantika is probably best-known as a component in the five-nature classification of proclivities for enlightenment articulated by the Yogâcâra school, where it represents a category of sentient beings who are deemed incapable of attaining nirvâṇa. The existence of such a class of beings was denied by such schools as Tiantai and Huayan whose doctrines strongly advocated the possibility of Buddhahood for all sentient beings. This matter is discussed at length in the Buddha-nature Treatise . The origins of the notion of this concept have been examined by Seishi KARASHIMA (2007). Karashima broaches the topic by noting the existence of the term icchati in Pali works such as the Visuddhimagga, where it means "fancies"; "maintains", "holds", "claims," (a theory) etc. He finds the term icchantika (for which he gives the primary gloss of "one who makes claims;" "opinionated one") appearing first in texts of the tathâgatagarbha tradition. " ..... L:>You can find two instances of it in SN > under the second index heading for "desire". However, it isn't used in > the sense of "icchantika", a being incapable of ever attaining > liberation. You can find this sense (but not the word) at SN II,17,32 > (p. 691 in my edition) regarding Devadatta, who attempted to overthrow > the Buddha: "Because his mind was overcome and obsessed by gain, honour, > and praise, Devadatta's wholesome root was cut off"333. > > Note 333 ...Spk explains this to mean that the wholesome roots have been > cut off to such an extent that Devadatta is incapable of taking rebirth > in heaven or of achieving the path and fruit; it does not mean that his > wholesome roots have been permanently eradicated." > > L: It is unclear to me whether Devadatta is permanently cut off from > nibbana, or only cut off in his present life. .... S: Devadatta eventually becomes a pacceka Buddha, so the incapability referred to is with regard to that lifetime and the following lifetime when he's reborn in the lowest hell realm. Those born with no roots or only two wholesome roots (i.e without panna) cannot attain enlightenment in that life. Metta, Sarah ========= #74974 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Aug 6, 2007 12:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: satipatthana as island of refuge sarahprocter... Dear Scott & Tep, I'll keep this very brief because a)I don't have my texts to check context and b)I see Scott's gone camping and c)I'm on unsure ground too: --- Scott Duncan wrote: > 'Yaa kho aavuso visaakha cittassa ekaggataa aya.m samaadhi. Cattaaro > satipa.t.thaanaa samaadhinimittaa. ...' > > Bh Bodhi: Unification of mind, friend Visaakha, is concentration; the > four foundations of mindfulness are the basis of concentration > > Thanissaro Bh: Singleness of mind is concentration; the four frames > of reference are its themes. <...> > I'm out on a limb and so will await correction and clarification. I'd > say that the concentration here referred to is that which arises in > the moment, the basis of which is satipa.t.thaana - the turning of > sati and pa~n~na to a particular object. In other words, the > momentary samaadhi - cittassa ekaggata - which functions to assist > sati and pa~n~na in a focus on an object in the moment. And then, the > object itself is a nimitta of reality. .... Sarah: I would have just said that (as following the BB translation above), the lines above are referring to development of satipatthana as the basis of higher concentration which is eventually purified at the stage of anagami, but gradually purified through the development of satipatthana. It is concentration with wisdom that is being referred to. > > T: "I think the meaning of satipatthaana as the > basis/support/ground/reason/condition for samaadhi to arise is > compatible with my understanding that also allows another meaning of > satipatthaana as the sign/outward appearance/mark/phenomenon that > comes before the arising of samaadhi. For example, the purification > of virtues(sila) is the nimitta (first meaning) for the arising of > the magga (see the Samyutta Nikaya Maha vaggo, Maggasamyutta). The > Buddha also called the colorful lights on the horizon as > the "nimitta" before the arising of the Sun. In this case nimitta > means sign/outward appearance/mark/phenomenon. I guess Ven. > Thanissaro's themes in MN 44 are in the second category." .... Sarah: I think this makes good sense. I would just say 'before the development of samaadhi' to make it clear. This is an interesting use of nimitta. Thank you for bringing it to our attention, Tep. Metta, Sarah ====== #74975 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Aug 6, 2007 12:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: thank you, once again sarahprocter... Hi Connie and her merry band of Perfectionists, --- L G SAGE wrote: > Speaking of name dropping, I remember putting something in Nagasena's > mouth but now, not whether it was soup or broth my fingers fumbled. > > << 'There is no soul in the breath. These inhalations and exhalations > are merely constituent powers of the bodily frame,' said the Elder. And > he talked to him from the Abhidhamma to such effect that Anantakaaya > confessed himself as a supporter of the Order. >> ... S: Is this and the following section being quoted from Milinda Panha or A.Sujin's 'Perfections'..... ... > > It's a nice long section. A footnote says no characteristic mark is > given for yoniso manasikaara in "the long list of the distinguishing > charateristics of ethical qualities given by Buddhaghosa in the > Sumangala". .... S: Because it's what Andrew refers to as a 'composite term' perhaps? .... >Another, that < 'being unshaken by spiritual pride' is his > mark (p. 63) of Samaadhi-bala. .... S: Clarification pls. Who is 'his'? ... > Nagasena answers "And what is the > characteristic mark of good conduct?" by saying << 'It has as its > characteristic that it is the basis of all good qualities. ... S: Sila as the basis of all kinds of good qualities, not just deeds and acts. With and without panna. This is why the texts stress sila first, sila as foundation. It doesn't mean sila is purified before samadhi and then panna. Nice quote snipped. Metta, Sarah ============ #74976 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Aug 6, 2007 1:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Angry Monks sarahprocter... Hi Chuck, --- dhammasaro wrote: > Please forgive the delay in replying. Seldom online. Try to be > online more freqently. ... S: Never a problem. And I'm also deleting portions too. ... > Chuck: I will fly to Bangkok on 18 August. Arrive at my condo on > early morning 20 August. Will contact Sukin. ... S: I hope you meet up and visit the Foundation with him to meet A.Sujin, Betty and others. ... > > Another of our mostly-lurking members here, Betty, has a son who is > > ordained and living at Wat Bovoranives (half American, half Thai). > > .... > Chuck: I met one such monk. I forget his name. He is probably > between late 20's to late 30's and six foot or more tall. I usually > see him when I would spend a weekly 12-hour shift with His Holiness, > The Supreme Patriarch. ... S: Could be the same. Betty will clarify with you. .... > Chuck: No to all three questions! > Do have access to both English and Thai Tipitaka and audio > discussions. However, my English access to the Abhidhamma portion of > the Tipitaka is almost non-existant. ... S: Ah, we can help you with access to the Abhidhamma here! .... > > As you can see, 'the practise' and the understanding of the Dhamma > is highly controversial here. How do you see the path? How do > understand pariyatti and pa.tipatti? > ... > Chuck: I will answer separately as it may be rather lengthly. ... S: Look forward to that! .... > .... > > What did you find most useful about ordaining for this time? > > > Chuck: More opportunities to discuss the Teachings with English > speaking monks. Also, the access to english speaking monks to > translate with Thai only speaking monks. .... S: What aspects of the Teachings would most your discussions revolve around, if you can summarise? Mostly concerned with the Vinaya or with ideas of practice or discussions on suttas? If you do meet up with Sukin, A.Sujin, Betty and others for discussions in Bkk, pls report back on your impressions of these too. When we last visited, an English bhikkhu (residing in Chengmai), Ven Pannabahulo, joined the discussions. You might like to read his report: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/74189 I'd be interested in any comments you have on this too. Metta, Sarah ========= #74977 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Aug 6, 2007 4:25 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness jonoabb Hi Howard Before I come back on the the various points in your post, a comment and a question regarding the meaning of the term "anapanasati", since this is obviously a significant point of difference (and a key issue) here. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: ... > > You are perhaps using the term "anapanasati" as a synonym for what is > > described in the sutta. Is that the case (in other words, do you > > have a definition of "anapanasati" apart from the descripton > > contained in the material quoted)? > > ------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Anapanasati, best rendered in English, I believe, by "mindfulness with > breathing," iswhat is described in that sutta, most especially by the 16 > items Ihave twice listed. > --------------------------------------------- You say that "anapanasati" is what is described by the 16 items quoted from the sutta. However, the list of the monks present as given at the begining of the sutta includes those who are "devoted to mindfulness of in-&-out breathing" (anapanasati). Furthermore, in the heirarchy of those present, starting with arahants and going on down through stream enterers, those developing insight, etc, the monks who are devoted to anapanasati are the last mentioned, suggesting that in terms of enlightenment they are the least advanced. Furthermore, it was in connection with the reference to the monks already devoted to anapanasati that the Buddha made the comment that its development and pursuit could bring great fruit and benefit. It does not seem appropriate to equate the term "anapanasati" in this context with what is described by the 16 items from the end of the sutta. Also, the term "anapanasati" appears elsewhere in the suttas in the ocntext of the 40 kammatthaana of samatha bhavana, alongside the kasinas, recollection of death, etc. Again, in this context, would anapanasati carry the meaning as described by the 16 items from the Anapanasati Sutta, in your view? Looking forward to your further comments on this interesting and difficult subject. Jon #74978 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Aug 6, 2007 4:48 am Subject: Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness jonoabb Hi Swee Boon --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > > Hi Jon, ... > > <(4) The object of insight is the jhana attained by anapanasati.> > > If both samatha with breath as object and insight have been > > developed to high levels, an immediately past jhana citta may be > > taken as the object of the insight consciousness. > > The commentary says that the meditator having emerged from the jhanas > may lay hold of either the respiration body or the factors of jhanas. > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/soma/wayof.html > > Having emerged from the absorption, he lays hold of either the > respiration body or the factors of absorption. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > So I think your reading of the sutta is perfectly valid. > > But I am interested in the former, that is the respiration body. > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/soma/wayof.html > > There the meditating worker in respiration [assasapassasa kammika] > examines the body (rupa) thinking thus: Supported by what is > respiration? Supported by the basis [vatthunissita]. The basis is the > coarse body [karajja kaya]. The coarse body is composed of the Four > Great Primaries and the corporeality derived from these [cattari > mahabhutani upadarupañca]. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks for the quotes from the commentary. I believe this second passage (which follows immediately after the first) is a reference to the development of insight. The sub-commentary says in reference to this second passage: Sub-Comy: "The worker in respiration examines the respiration while devoting himself to the development of insight through the means of corporeality." The Comy and Sub-Comy then go on to explain that the insight being developed is not limited to the rupas of the body: Sub-Comy: "The basis, namely, the coarse body, is where the mind and mental characteristics occur." Comy: "Thereupon, he, the worker in respiration, cognizes the mind (nama) in the pentad of mental concomitants beginning with sense-impression." Sub-Comy: "The first beginning with sense-impression are sense-impression, feeling, perception, volition, and consciousness. They are taken here as representative of mind." Comy: "The worker in respiration examines the mind and the body, sees the Dependent Origination of ignorance and so forth, and concluding that this mind and this body are bare conditions, and things produced from conditions, and that besides these there is neither a living being nor a person, becomes to that extent a person who transcends doubt." So to answer your specific question: > Do you think this sort of contemplation is possible without having > attained the jhanas through anapanasati? What is being referred to here is the development of insight while also developing samatha with breath as object (although at different moments). The development of insight per se is not limited to those who have attained the jhanas through anapanasati. > Another question: Why is an immediately past jhana citta not a > concept? A very good question. The answer is the same as why the immediately past mind with akusala is not a concept: although it has just fallen away it can still be the object of the succeeding moment of consciousness. Lots about this in UP. Will give a reference when I next write. Jon #74979 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Aug 6, 2007 5:38 am Subject: Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness jonoabb Hi Howard --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Jon - ... > > As I understand it, the passage from the Anapanasati Sutta describes > > how, if both (a) samatha with breath as object and (b) insight are > > developed, the jhana attained by means of the samatha development > > may, by being the object of the insight, become the basis for > > enlightenment. > > ------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Jon, one has to read the sutta itself. There is no mention of taking > jhana as object of insight. Although I do think that jhana in the Buddha's > sense is involved (rapture and pleasure pointing towards that), jhana is not > explicitly mentioned and is not what is mentioned as attended to per se. What is > mentioned are the breath and its characteristics, the body, rapture, pleasure, > mental fabrication(s), mind (states of mind, I presume), impermanence, > dispassion, and relinquishement. Correct, no direct mention of jhana per se. But I think this is how the sutta is explained in the commentary (I've not had a chance to check Nina's past messages on this). > The bottom line, Jon, is that for me it is crystal clear that what is > taught in the Anapanasati Sutta is a means of cultivating samatha and > vipassana, with there not being the slightest doubt as to the latter. It is a means of > cultivating all the enlightenment factors. I agree as regards the reference to the cultivation of both samatha and vipassana. > > It is important to note, however, that the object of the samatha > > (i.e., breath) cannot be the object of the insight development. > > > ------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Nor the body, nor the mind. But cultivating what you like to call the > realities underlying these most assuredly can be, and it is they that do > become the object of insight development as the meditation proceeds. We are agreed that the sutta refers to the development of insight. > What is the Satipatthana Sutta about, Jon? Cultivation of vipassana, > no? Look at that sutta! Do you view it also as teaching a purely samatha > meditation? Not sure what I might have said to lead to think that I view the Satipatthana Sutta as teaching purely samatha. But happy to assure you that I have never held that view. > Howard: > The meditation begins with what is ordinarily known to the meditator - > "the breath". As the meditation proceeds - as attention becomes more precise, > concentration and energy stronger, and clarity greater, "the breath" > disappears and only the rupas of warmth and cold, movement, subtle roughness, > softness, and so on arise and pass away. The idea that attention focussed on the breath can, with increasing attention, be a condition for the arising of panna that directly experiences the dhammas that are taken for breath, (i.e., that samatha can somehow become satipatthana), is not expressly mentioned in the sutta and does not in my view fit with the rest of the teachings. >The breath, as opposed to a mind-created > kasina image, has ongoing experiential realities as its basis, and it is that well > groundedness of the breath percept/concept that makes it so suitable for an > in-tandem cultivation. There is no ambiguity in this sutta as to its teaching a > means of vipassana bhavana, but aside from that, Jon, if you would but work > with anapanasati practice for an extended period of time, you would see for > yourself that this is in fact the case. As you know, in my view this sutta deals with particular aspects of anapanasati, and not the (initial) development of anapanasati per se. Hence, it begins its treatment of anapanasati by saying: "There is the case where a monk, having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building, sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect, and setting mindfulness to the fore. Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out." If one doesn't fit this description, no need to apply this time 'round ;-)) Enough for one post. More later, perhaps. Jon #74980 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Mon Aug 6, 2007 6:17 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (64) nichiconn Dear Friends, 11. Dvaadasakanipaato 1. Uppalava.n.naatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa part 9 txt: Tepi raajapurisaa padumavatiyaa nivesana.m setasaa.niihi parikkhipaapetvaa dvaare aarakkha.m .thapetvaa gantvaa ra~n~no aarocesu.m. Raajaa suva.n.nasivika.m pesesi. Saa "aha.m eva.m na gamissaami, mama vasana.t.thaanato pa.t.thaaya yaava raajageha.m etthantare varapotthakacittatthara.ne attharaapetvaa upari suva.n.nataarakavicitta.m celavitaana.m bandhaapetvaa pasaadhanatthaaya sabbaala"nkaaresu pahitesu padasaava gamissaami, eva.m me naagaraa sampatti.m passissantii"ti aaha. Pruitt: Then those men had Padumavatii's house encircled with a white curtain, placed a guard at the door, and went to inform the king. The king sent a golden palanquin. But she said, "I will not go like this. Have various coloured coverings of excellent potthaka cloth spread over the space between my dwelling place and as far as the king's house. Furthermore, have a canopy ornamented with gold stars be raised, have sent all my ornaments in order [for me] to decorate [myself], and I shall go on foot so the citizens will see my prosperity." Raajaa "padumavatiyaa yathaaruci.m karothaa"ti aaha. Tato padumavatii sabbapasaadhana.m pasaadhetvaa "raajageha.m gamissaamii"ti magga.m pa.tipajji. Athassaa akkanta-akkanta.t.thaane varapotthakacittatthara.naani bhinditvaa padumapupphaani u.t.thahi.msu. Saa mahaajanassa attano sampatti.m dassetvaa raajanivesana.m aaruyha sabbepi te celacittatthara.ne tassaa mahallikaaya posaavanikamuula.m katvaa daapesi. The king said, "Do as Padumavatii wishes." Then Padumavati adorned herself in all her ornaments and set out on the path, saying, "I'm going to the king's house." And at every spot she stepped, a lotus blossom sprang up, breaking through the various coloured coverings of excellent potthaka cloth. She showed her porsperity to a great number of people. She went up to the king's residence. Then she ordered that the various cloured coverings of cloth be given to the old woman for nurturing [the queen]. Raajaapi kho taa pa~ncasataa itthiyo pakkosaapetvaa "imaayo te, devi, daasiyo katvaa demii"ti aaha. "Saadhu, mahaaraaja, etaasa.m mayha.m dinnabhaava.m sakalanagare jaanaapehii"ti. Raajaa nagare bheri.m caraapesi "padumavatiyaa dubbhikaa pa~ncasataa itthiyo etissaava daasiyo katvaa dinnaa"ti. Saa "taasa.m sakalanaagarena daasibhaavo sallakkhito"ti ~natvaa "aha.m mama daasiyo bhujissaa kaatu.m labhaami, devaa"ti raajaana.m pucchi. "Tava icchaa, devii"ti. "Eva.m sante tameva bhericaarika.m pakkosaapetvaa- 'padumavatideviyaa attano daasiyo katvaa dinnaa pa~ncasataa itthiyo sabbaava bhujissaa kataa'ti puna bheri.m caraapethaa"ti aaha. Then the king sent for the five hundred women and said, "O queen, making these your slaves, I give them to you." "Very well, great king," she said. "Make it known to all the citizens that they have been given to me." The king had the kettledrum sent through the twon [to announce], "The five hundred women who harmed Padumavatii have been made slaves and given to her." When she knew that all the citizens realized they were slaves, she asked the king, "O king, may I free my slaves?" "As you wish, O queen," he said. "This being so," she said, "summon the drummer and have the kettledrum sent [to announce,] 'Queen Padumavatii has freed all the five hundred women who were given to her as her own slaves.'" ===tbc, connie. #74981 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Aug 6, 2007 3:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: satipatthana as island of refuge upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and Tep) - In a message dated 8/6/07 3:27:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > In the same popular thread, I also liked Howard's summary on 'people and > practice': > > H: "In Ordinary Speak, a very popular language (LOL!), many people > practice. But speaking more technically (and more literally), no one > practices. When it is said that no one practices, the > emphasis is not on the practice but on the alleged practitioner. The point > is that lots of activities and events occur - lots of phenomena arise, and > we refer to all that as "a person practicing". But there is no entity > called a person who, upon careful inspection, is findable or graspable. > There is, in fact, just the mental superimposition of the percept/concept > of "person" upon the experience of a multitude of dhammas." > ... > S: This is why bhavana (mental development/practice) refers to the > development of panna and associated dhammas, not a person doing anything. > > Do we all agree on this as well? > ========================= ;-) I agree with what I said. LOL! I ALSO agree with what you said, Sarah, so long as people (not you, and not me) don't take the true literal-level statement "There is no person doing anything" and understand it to be a true conventional statement, because as a conventional statement it is false. There is a danger here, the danger in conflating samutti sacca with paramattha sacca. It is conventionally true that persons do many things, and to think that this is not so (from that same conventional perspective) is to involve oneself in conventional wrong view ("There is nothing given, ..." and so on). To assert that no persons practice (in the *conventional* sense) is, in fact, to assert that there are no phenomena that constitute what we *call* a person practicing, and *that* is false. So, care must be taken, and we need to be very clear on exactly what we are saying and what we mean by it. I think that such disclaimers and clarifications as this are very important, Sarah. This is not a matter of "having it both ways," but of being clear what one is talking about. I believe that part of the problem that people have with the not-self teaching stems from conflating paramattha sacca with samutti sacca. BTW, I of *course* realize that you DO know what you are talking about. I'm not writing this for your benefit, but for general consideration. With metta, Howard #74982 From: "nidive" Date: Mon Aug 6, 2007 9:28 am Subject: Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness nidive Hi Jon, > What is being referred to here is the development of insight while > also developing samatha with breath as object (although at different > moments). > The development of insight per se is not limited to those who have > attained the jhanas through anapanasati. Does that mean it is possible to develop insight to the degree of stream-entry through anapanasati but without developing samatha? > > Another question: Why is an immediately past jhana citta not a > > concept? > A very good question. The answer is the same as why the > immediately past mind with akusala is not a concept: although it > has just fallen away it can still be the object of the succeeding > moment of consciousness. I am interested in this because of my curiosity over the magga citta. Since the magga citta is followed immediately by phala citta, how can one know that magga citta has arisen, since it appears not capable of being the object of the succeeding moment of consciousness, ie. the phala citta. Swee Boon #74983 From: "nidive" Date: Mon Aug 6, 2007 9:52 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness nidive Hi Howard (& Jon), ------------------------------------------------------------------- "Thus he lives contemplating the body in the body internally, or he lives contemplating the body in the body externally, or he lives contemplating the body in the body internally and externally. He lives contemplating origination-things in the body, or he lives contemplating dissolution-things in the body, or he lives contemplating origination-and-dissolution-things in the body. Or indeed his mindfulness is established with the thought: 'The body exists,' to the extent necessary just for knowledge and remembrance, and he lives independent and clings to naught in the world. ------------------------------------------------------------------- As I read your post, a certain thought came to me. I think the 3 paragraphs above relates to 3 of the 7 factors of enlightenment. In the first paragraph, the Buddha exhorts us to develop the enlightenment factor of mindfulness. In the second paragraph, the Buddha exhorts us to develop the enlightenment factor of investigation. In the third paragraph, the Buddha exhorts us to develop the enlightenment factor of equanimity. I think this is interesting but I could be wrong. Swee Boon #74984 From: "nidive" Date: Mon Aug 6, 2007 9:54 am Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge nidive Hi Ken H, > Thanks for the questions. I can't imagine why you would direct them > to me, though. I am hardly the scholarly type. You would do better > to ask someone else. But thanks for thinking of me. :-) I appreciate your candidness in this post. Thanks. Swee Boon #74985 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Mon Aug 6, 2007 2:07 pm Subject: Re: thank you, once again nichiconn Hi Sarah, Andrew, > << 'There is no soul in the breath. These inhalations and exhalations > are merely constituent powers of the bodily frame,' said the Elder. And > he talked to him from the Abhidhamma to such effect that Anantakaaya > confessed himself as a supporter of the Order. >> .. S: Is this and the following section being quoted from Milinda Panha or A.Sujin's 'Perfections'..... .. c: Milinda. www.sacred-texts.com/bud/sbe35/index.htm Book II: The Distinguishing Characteristics of Ethical Qualities I think my quotes were all from ch.1 .. > > It's a nice long section. A footnote says no characteristic mark is > given for yoniso manasikaara in "the long list of the distinguishing > charateristics of ethical qualities given by Buddhaghosa in the > Sumangala". ... S: Because it's what Andrew refers to as a 'composite term' perhaps? ... c: Do you mean where 74968 reads "Do the inherent characterisitics include the hetu, the relational aspects, the anusayas etc. In asking this, I recognise that, as soon as you start weaving this web, it is very easy to come to a conclusion that "I am the sum of all this fluctuating process" i.e. atta view via the back door." ?? .. >Another, that < 'being unshaken by spiritual pride' is his > mark (p. 63) of Samaadhi-bala. ... S: Clarification pls. Who is 'his'? .. c: Yeah, 'he', i think of p63 of the Sumangala... ask Buddhaghosa? === #74986 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Aug 6, 2007 5:52 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: satipatthana as island of refuge indriyabala Hi Sarah (and Howard), - Sarah(#74971): In the same popular thread, I also liked Howard's summary on 'people and practice': H: "In Ordinary Speak, a very popular language (LOL!), many people practice. But speaking more technically (and more literally), no one practices. When it is said that no one practices, the emphasis is not on the practice but on the alleged practitioner. The point is that lots of activities and events occur - lots of phenomena arise, and we refer to all that as "a person practicing". But there is no entity called a person who, upon careful inspection, is findable or graspable. There is, in fact, just the mental superimposition of the percept/concept of "person" upon the experience of a multitude of dhammas." ... S: This is why bhavana (mental development/practice) refers to the development of panna and associated dhammas, not a person doing anything. Do we all agree on this as well? Tep: Indeed, KenH already asked me a very similar question before. KenH (#74847): If you don't mind, Tep, I really would like you to answer the question: "Doesn't anatta mean no one practises?" And my answer to him was: T: (#74911) At the paramattha-dhamma level there are only cittas, cetasikas, ruupa and nibbana. These dhammas are all anatta, but it is a different matter to say too strongly that "anatta means no one practises". Why? Because if there is no 'patipatti', or there is no 'patipada', then there will not be eradication of dukkkha through the cessation of kamma. Both Kamma and Dukkha were defined by the Great Sage with beings in mind. T: (#74921) We should not be confused by these two different perspectives, because they are both correct: the paramattha-dhamma view and the conventional view that are co-existing. In the world of paramattha principles there are only the four realities, while beings live and die in their worlds of beings (as defined in the sutta that I quoted earlier). The no self/not self principle is easily understood in the world of atoms where there are no humans, animals, or things. Yet, in every human, animal, and non-living thing there are atoms and empty spaces! ......... T: My answer to your question[Sarah: "This is why bhavana (mental development/practice) refers to the development of panna and associated dhammas, not a person doing anything. Do we all agree on this as well?"],therefore, is: it depends on your perspective -- the real-world perspective, or the paramattha-dhamma perspective. In the real world there are both persons doing mental practice and the development of panna and associated dhammas. When the Paramattha- dhamma perspective is used, there is no person doing anything. The following sutta is a good example that supports my real-world perspective view. [MN 61] Therefore, Rahula, you should train yourself: 'I will purify my bodily acts through repeated reflection. I will purify my verbal acts through repeated reflection. I will purify my mental acts through repeated reflection.' Thus you should train yourself. T: MN 61 shows that there was a person (named Rahula) who followed the Buddha's advice about the development of three right conducts. Later after more listening and more practices, he became an arahant. Did ultimate realities, or Rahula, become arahant? Tep === #74987 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Aug 6, 2007 7:08 pm Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge indriyabala Hi Scott (and Sarah), - Although I am aware of your announced break, I still want to write a reply now -- before it may get hidden in layers of messages between now and the time you are back. First, I thank you and Abhidhammika for the quote on continuity. " ... As the flame burns, so is this body also shown to appear as if existing for a long time through serial arisings." Scott: And so, to me, 'continuity' is the illusion, and the ultimate, ongoing situation is one of contiguity. I believe the Abhidhamma clarification is that there is no gap between the ceasing of one moment and the arising of the next. I'll get textual support if you wish. I believe this is consistent with the Milinda Panha, which I really like and am glad you appended it. Tep: I don't know about the "Abhidhamma clarification". What I think I know is that continuity is not an illusion. If it were illusion, then that would be the same as saying "there is no flame in the real world". We know there are flames that can burn a finger or a forest! A rainbow is real, and a mirage is also a real physical phenomena, and they are conditioned reality caused by a number of factors. Flows of electron are real (since we see a motor is turned and a light bulb is lit). The fact that we do not see electrons only the effects of the electron flows does not mean that electrons are illusion. Forgive me if I missed your point. ............ Scott: I'm not sure we've clarified that 'satipa.t.thaana is a samaadhinimitta.' I think that, as you say, the notion of supporting condition has validity. Also, since the cetasika known as concentration arises with each citta, at the moment of satipa.t.thaana, this concentration is functioning to focus on the object. T: We can drop the subject of satipatthana as a samaadhinimitta for now, if you wish. Concerning concentration focus on an object, I understand that there are 55 kinds of concentration as expounded in the Patisambhidamagga. For example, void-, signless-, and desireless-concentration. [Treatise I, Chapter III : Concentration. Page 49] Perhaps, the signless concentration has no object. Don't you think so? .......... >T: "It seems that all the time you are talking about the realities that are seen only by at least the Nonreturners. Does "a moment of consciousness" mean the time instant between the arising and passing away of a citta? You have said that moment of time is very short. Now, if that moment is very short, how can a non-ariyan meditator abandon "the defilements of awareness" so that the mind "feels malleable for the direct knowing of those qualities worth realizing"? And if people like you and me cannot attain direct knowing because there is no time for the mind to become "malleable", then we are hopeless. Right?" Scott: No, sorry Tep, I disagree. Here's why. Whether insight is tender or well-developed this has, in my opnion, no bearing on the ultimate nature of reality. It is, from the beginning as it comes to be seen as dependent on the strength of developed insight. Its always just naama, ruupa, and Nibbaana. The reality of things does not change as development proceeds; development allows for a closer and closer glimpse of reality as it is until the end. The malleability of the mind is by the moment, given the right collection of dhammas. One moment can condition the next. Just because the moment of consciousness you refer to as 'the Nonreturner' is able to penetrate to the level we can only discuss theoretically does not in the least mean that things are not that way prior to that moment. They are always that way. They are that way now. Why should this be discouraging? Development is possible. I'll stop. Thanks, Tep. T: It's allright to disagree with me, Scott. IMO Your short explanation above is so heavy in the paramattha-dhamma principle that I am lost -- it is due to my own inadequacy. Maybe I am at a level lower, because I cannot tell whether I disagree or agree with you. Let's go over it, if you still have an appetite, when you come back from the break. Thanks. Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Dear Tep, > > Thanks for the reply: > > T: "I agree with you that seeing sees but is long past. That seeing > continues because of continuity of perception and consciousness -- the > same idea why we perceive "we" are the "same persons" as the ones > posing in a photograph." > #74988 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Aug 6, 2007 7:49 pm Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge indriyabala Dear Sarah (Scott, and KenH) - I appreciate your attention to the various issues of discussion between me and Scott has had with me. I think Scott is (gently) trying to teach me a version of paramattha-dhamma(as he sees it). --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Scott & Tep, > > I'll keep this very brief because a)I don't have my texts to check context > and b)I see Scott's gone camping and c)I'm on unsure ground too: > > --- Scott Duncan wrote: > > 'Yaa kho aavuso visaakha cittassa ekaggataa aya.m samaadhi. Cattaaro > > satipa.t.thaanaa samaadhinimittaa. ...' > > > > Bh Bodhi: Unification of mind, friend Visaakha, is concentration; the four foundations of mindfulness are the basis of concentration Thanissaro Bh: Singleness of mind is concentration; the four frames of reference are its themes. > <...> > > I'm out on a limb and so will await correction and clarification. I'd say that the concentration here referred to is that which arises in the moment, the basis of which is satipa.t.thaana - the turning of sati and pa~n~na to a particular object. In other words, the momentary samaadhi - cittassa ekaggata - which functions to assist sati and pa~n~na in a focus on an object in the moment. And then, the object itself is a nimitta of reality. > .... > Sarah: I would have just said that (as following the BB translation > above), the lines above are referring to development of satipatthana as the basis of higher concentration which is eventually purified at the stage of anagami, but gradually purified through the development of satipatthana. It is concentration with wisdom that is being referred to. > > > > T: "I think the meaning of satipatthaana as the > > basis/support/ground/reason/condition for samaadhi to arise is > > compatible with my understanding that also allows another meaning of satipatthaana as the sign/outward appearance/mark/phenomenon that > > comes before the arising of samaadhi. For example, the purification of virtues(sila) is the nimitta (first meaning) for the arising of the magga (see the Samyutta Nikaya Maha vaggo, Maggasamyutta). The Buddha also called the colorful lights on the horizon as the "nimitta" before the arising of the Sun. In this case nimitta means sign/outward appearance/mark/phenomenon. I guess Ven. Thanissaro's themes in MN 44 are in the second category." > .... > ====== > T: I am at times on "unsure ground" too, Sarah -- until 'yathabhuta dassana' arises. > Sarah: I think this makes good sense. I would just say 'before the > development of samaadhi' to make it clear. > > This is an interesting use of nimitta. Thank you for bringing it to our attention, Tep. > Yes, before the development of samaadhi that is marked by the first jhaana state (Read MN 125 to see what I mean). Thank you for agreeing with that use of nimitta, Sarah. Tep === #74989 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Aug 6, 2007 9:01 pm Subject: Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness jonoabb Hi Swee Boon --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > > Hi Jon, > > > What is being referred to here is the development of insight while > > also developing samatha with breath as object (although at different > > moments). > > The development of insight per se is not limited to those who have > > attained the jhanas through anapanasati. > > Does that mean it is possible to develop insight to the degree of > stream-entry through anapanasati but without developing samatha? A person who is developing both samatha and insight has no way of knowing whether jhana will be attained before enlightenment or enlightenment before jhana (or, of course, neither ;-)). Either outcome is possible, as is mentioned in the texts. However, the scenario contemplated in the anapanasti section of DN 22 is jhana before enlightenment, no doubt becuase there were many (within and without the order of monks) who had already attained, or were capable of attaining, jhana with breath as object. To answer your question another way, there is nothing about the attainment of jhana per se that predisposes a person towards enlightenment. Enlightenment is the outcome of highly developed insight, and insight can only be developed (a) during a Buddha's dispensation, and (b) by one who has a correct understanding of the teachings on insight. Jhana + wrong view = no enlightenment! > > > Another question: Why is an immediately past jhana citta not a > > > concept? > > A very good question. The answer is the same as why the > > immediately past mind with akusala is not a concept: although it > > has just fallen away it can still be the object of the succeeding > > moment of consciousness. > > I am interested in this because of my curiosity over the magga citta. > Since the magga citta is followed immediately by phala citta, how can > one know that magga citta has arisen, since it appears not capable of > being the object of the succeeding moment of consciousness, ie. the > phala citta. I will take a stab at this, but Sarah (and of course Nina who is away at the moment) will be able to give a better answer than me. I can think of 2 reasons why a person who has attained enlightenment would know it: (1) Because the object of the magga citta is nibbana, an object which is only experienced with magga citta (or certain post- enlightenment cittas). (2) Because it is followed by a reviewing citta which directly perceives the defilements remainning. Hoping this helps. Jon #74990 From: "colette" Date: Mon Aug 6, 2007 11:22 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Scalpel please ksheri3 Hi Ken, Boy do you take chances: 1) "I thought..." 2)"...attainment." Zoiks, that's a big chance that those two pre-requisites could actually find the exact same moment to be in the same mind of a person at the same time. Before I take apart your obvious roadblock you've chosen by thinking I'd like to know where it states that there are "ONLY THREE MIND- POISONS". Thinking always gets people into trouble. <....> I like this since you've linked the two cataclysmic events together (psst, are you involved in nuclear physics?), attainment and thinking. I;ve dealt with thinking and/or having thoughts, so no lets get to "attainment", is that the "attainment" found in getting from point A to point B or is that "attainment" found in purchasing a bauble at the local store, or is that "attainment" more personal as in the gratification a master-baitor gets from the sweat of his brow? Why does "receiving" PLAY SUCH A huge part of your study of dharma? Why does "receiving" play any part in the study of buddhism? <....> toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Hi Colette > > > > "Anger and jealousy directly affect your Bodhicitta, as does the > > ego. > > They are your enemies. The three mind-poisons are the reason why > > beings are always so aggressive." > > > > KO: I thought only greed, anger and ignorance affects one's > attainment. Anger and jealousy is only one root :-) <...> #74991 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Aug 6, 2007 11:49 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: cetanaa, was: Not Hard to Accept sarahprocter... hi Howard, --- upasaka@... wrote: > > A: What you are suggesting really is that it should be made clear > whether > > it is cetana as conascent kamma-condition (sahajaata kammapaccaya) or > > cetana as asychronous kamma-condition (naa,nakkha.nika kamma paccaya) > that > > is being referred to. > > > --------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Yes, that would suffice. :-) > --------------------------------------------- S: Glad we've got that clear:-) Apologies for a confusing typo above: A: was me, S:. .... > >S:... As with most aspects of the Dhamma, especially the Abhidhamma, we have > to > > be very precise! > > ------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I agree with that. In fact, certain lapses in Abhidhammic > precision > have motivated negative reactions from me from time to time. There > especially is > where precision and clarity of definition should be found, it seems to > me. > ---------------------------------------- S: Yes, I think the Abhidhamma is very precise, but sometimes too much detail can be overwhelming and may also distract from the main point. You've already heard/read quite a lot, so you appreciate more precision. .... > > > > You might like to check 'cetana' in CMA and quote anything relevant > too. > > ---------------------------------------- > Howard: > We're going very slowly in our study of that. Perhaps I'll do a > look-ahead. :-) ... S: For me, the Ab. Sangaha has always been more of a reference guide, so I'd say, check ahead when it suits you and share anything you find of particular interest:-). Metta, Sarah ======== #74992 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Aug 7, 2007 12:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kaeng Krachan again 1. sarahprocter... Hi Ken O (& Mike*), --- Ken O wrote: > Hi Sarah > > Nowadays, time is a luxury to me. Hence I could not participate in > detail discussions. Hence I throw in some fun along the way. .... S: I like the fun and others do too!* ... > I think it is difficult to believe that all in a practise is > understanding, investigating and pondering about dhamma at the moment > for many people. It is hard to believe that when we do that, it is > call contemplating or bhavana. > > I know you would understand what I wrote, in fact most dinosaurs like > us would understand. Understanding reality at the moment is > something I found that is not a popular practise or subject and > easily misunderstood. It is such a simple practise yet difficult one > to accept. Until one understands, that all is just reality > conditioning each other, then dhamma becomes fun and clear, then > there is no confusing in reading sutta even without looking at the > commentary. One would be full of confidence in the dhamma especially > the Abhidhamma and the commentaries. .... S: Well put - 'such a simple practise yet difficult one to accept'. .... > Nonetheless, there bounds to be dinosaurs again and again to appear > until one day it really fades aways just like all cittas. Till then > lets be positive about it. If I could be a dinosaur after join DSG, > I believe there would be others too. ... S: Yes, you made a good transition from Pure Land to Dinosaur Land as I recall. Maybe we should call it the DinosaurSupportGroup:-). [to newcomers, we once had an exchange in which we jokingly referred to those with confidence in the Abhidhamma and commentaries as being dinosaurs, a dying breed.] .... > p.s.- I am still in Singapore and please tell me in advance if you > come to visit. Thanks ... S: Will do. Metta, Sarah Mike, another dinosaur, accidentally sent a couple of posts from the wrong account which therefore didn't show up on list. This is a note he had sent you: *** KO: Cheers, just being paradoxical at times for the fun of it. mn: I'm really glad to see your excellent posts back here again, Ken--I don't think that what you've written is a paradox; I think it's true to life and true to the saddhamma as explained in the texts (as I understand it)--and I really appreciate your good humor and sense of fun. mike **** #74993 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Aug 7, 2007 12:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What is the wrong view? (References from the MN anthology) sarahprocter... Hi Tep & all, We were discussing how at the second stage of insight, doubt about future and past, inc. future and past lives is eradicated, through the understanding of how namas and rupas arise due to conditions. (Vism XIX, 5, 6) ... --- Tep Sastri wrote: > T: <...> Is it an insight knowledge(vipassana~naana)? What is the Pali >term for this kind of attainment? ... S: yesm it's the second stage of insight (still 'tender' insight, taruna vipassana) The first stage is: 1. naama-ruupa paricchedcheda-~naa.na, at which stage panna clearly understands the distinction between nama and rupa The second stage is: 2. paccaya-pariggaha-~naana, at which stage, panna clearly understands the conditioned nature of dhammas. At this stage, the anatta nature of dhammas is seen more clearly ... > T: What about past and future of any conditioned dhamma? ... S: As the Vism quote indicates, by clearly understanding that the occurrence of namas and rupa is due to conditions (e.g. 'Due to eye-sense and visible object, eye-consciousness arises', S II,72, M I, 111), it is obvious that in the past and also in the future, all dhammas occurred and will continue to occur due to conditions. So there is no more inclination to think with doubt about 'Was I...', 'Will I be....' Mere dhammas rolling on, due to conditions. No atta involved. .... T:> Thanks for the passage on "Occurring is always due to a condition", > it reminds me of the following quote from MN 2(Sabbasava Sutta) that > emphasizes yoniso & ayoniso manasikara. > > MN 2: <...> > "This is how he attends inappropriately: 'Was I in the past? Was I > not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? > Having been what, what was I in the past? Shall I be in the future? > Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How > shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I be in the > future?' Or else he is inwardly perplexed about the immediate > present: 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being > come from? Where is it bound?' ... S: Thx for the appropriate quote. Yes, no wise attention when there's any thinking like this, because it's all about 'Me' or 'Atta', no understanding at such times about conditioned dhammas. Thanks for the good discussion. Let me know if you have further comments/qus on this. Metta, Sarah ========== #74994 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Aug 7, 2007 12:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: satipatthana as island of refuge sarahprocter... Hi Howard (& Tep), --- upasaka@... wrote: > > T: I also find that it is not easy to accept the single-moment > > approach (when all the dhammas simultaneously arise with no > > intention) .... S: Er...remember, cetana (intention) arises with every citta...by conditions:-) .... >>that rejects all doings/practice/sequential development .... S: Er...I don't think there is any rejection of 'doings/practice/sequential development', but there is a rejection of Self or Atta being involved. However long the development, however many aeons it may take, there is still only ever the dhammas of the present moment existing! No conflict here. ... > > simply because there are only conditioned dhammas that arise and pass > > away extremely fast. Lately, Sarah introduced the "shadow of > > reality" idea that seems like a patch to the failed concept of single > > moment. ... S: Actually, I think it was Scott who quoted from a past post I'd written on sankhara nimitta, 'shadow of reality' or shadow of conditioned dhammas. I think it's rather off-topic for this thread, but the point being stressed in that post would have been that in the beginning, rather than the precise characteristics of realities being known, it is the 'nimitta' or shadow. The texts use the simile of the swirling fire-brand to indicate that panna gets closer and closer to knowing the actual characteristics of dhammas. .... > ---------------------------------------- > Howard: > I missed the "shadow of reality" statement. Could you say more - > or, > Sarah, would you care to chime in here? ... S: As I say, I don't really see how it's related to this thread and think it may have been something of a red herring in the other one on satipatthana as samadhi nimitta in Scott's and Tep's other thread, but happy to elaborate further as you wish. The most important thing, as I see it, is to clearly understand what namas and rupas are in order to gradually get rid of the idea of self. Aything else, such as these details on nimitta above, is icing on the cake. Metta, Sarah ====== #74995 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Aug 7, 2007 1:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: satipatthana as island of refuge sarahprocter... Hi Swee Boon (Ken H & all) --- nidive wrote: > In A Critical Analysis of the Jhanas in Theravada Buddhist Meditation > by Henepola Gunaratana, the author listed the various cittas that > occur at the moments of stream entry. > > http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/scrnguna.pdf > > Page 186 > > Moment 01: Bhavanga (life-continuum) > Moment 02: Vibration > Moment 03: Cutting Off > Moment 04: Mind Door > Moment 05: Moment of Preliminary Work (parikamma) > Moment 06: Moment of Access (upacara) > Moment 07: Moment of Conformity (anuloma) > Moment 08: Moment of Change-of-Lineage (gotrabhu) > Moment 09: Magga Citta > Moment 10: Phala Citta > Moment 11: Phala Citta > Moment 12: Bhavanga > Moment 13: Bhavanga > Moment 14: Bhavanga > Moment 15: Bhavanga > Moment 16: Bhavanga > Moment 17: Bhavanga > 1.> How does one know that the magga citta has just occurred? > 2.> Why does the mind go into life-continuum mode right after the phala > cittas? > 3.> Is it possible to review that fleeting moment of magga citta after > coming out of life-continuum mode? How does one do it? .... S: I'm not a scholar either, but: 1.the answer lies in the following paccavekkha.na (reviewing) cittas in the next process (vithi) of cittas which 'review' the magga and phala cittas which have just occurred. 2. After each process of cittas, there are always bhavanga (life-continuum) cittas. Now, between each sense-door and mind-door or each mind-door and next mind-door process, there are bhavanga cittas. 3. As I said, it is the paccavekkha.na cittas which do it. They do it by way of 'na'vatabba'. This means that the characteristic of those dhammas is clearly understood as 'present' objects, even though they have in fact fallen away. This is also how mental states, cittas and rupas in the mind-door process are known as 'present objects', even though they too have fallen away. I'll sign off and then quote more detail from an earlier message I wrote on the intricacies of this reviewing consciousness and the case of Mahanama. Let me know if I've missed your point. Metta, Sarah http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/41160 >Sarah: "...from the commentary to the Abhidhammatthasangaha (PTS transl, STA, ch9, Meditation Practice) which gives further detail. (I'm adding a little more text at the beginning, so some others can follow the discussion too) *** On Magga citta (Path consciousness): “…the path enters the process of absorption fully understanding the truth of suffering, abandoning the truth of arising, realizing the truth of cessation, and by way of cultivation of the truth that is the path.” Commentary details follow: “ ‘Fully understanding (parijaanato): knowing precisely (parichijja) that exactly this is suffering, nothing more nor less…..” etc On Phala cittas (Fruition consciousness): “After that, two or three fruit consciousnesses occur and cease, and after that, there is lapsing into the existence continuum [until] the reviewing knowledges occur, once again interrupting the existence-continuum.” Commentary details follow, inc. “ ‘Reviewing knowledges’: sense-sphere knowledges which have the path and fruit,etc, as their objects, and with reference to which it is stated ‘once liberated, there is the knowledge that one is liberated’. [Vin1 14, S 111 68 – a formula occurring in many places].” *** More on Paccavekkha.na cittas (Reviewing consciousness): “One who is wise reviews the path, the fruit and then nibbana; he may or may not review the defilements abandoned and those remaining. Cultivated in this way by the six progressive purifications, the fourfold path is called ‘purification by knowing and seeing’.” Commentary details follow here in full with reference to Mahanama: “Now in order to indicate the level of reviewing, he states the words beginning ‘the path, the fruit’. Therein, ‘one who is wise reviews the path’, thinking, ‘this is the path by which I have come’; then he reviews its ‘fruit’, thinking, ‘This indeed is the benefit I have obtained’, and then ‘nibbana’, thinking, ‘This dhamma I have realized directly as an object’. Then ‘he may or may not review’ the defilements abandoned, thinking, ‘These are the defilements I have abandoned’, and the defilements remaining, thinking, ‘These are the ones that remain’. Some trainees review, some do not; what is meant is that this practice depends on one’s wish. Indeed, this is why Mahanama the Sakyan asked about the defilements that were not abandoned: ‘What is the state, lord, that I have not abandoned inside?’ [M1 91; Vism 676 (ch X11,210] For the arahat, however, there is no reviewing of defilements that remain since all defilements have been abandoned. Therefore it should be seen that there are nineteen reviewing knowledges: fifteen for the three trainees and four four the arahat. ‘By the six progressive purifications’: by progressing through the six purifications, namely the two purifications of conduct and consciousness, which constitute the roots, and the four beginning with the purification of view, which constitute the trunk. It is called the purification of knowing and seeing because of knowing the four truths by direct experience and being purified of the stain of the defilements.” *** S: So I think it’s clear that if there is not the reviewing of the defilements abandoned, then there isn’t this direct knowledge. When it refers to ‘thinking’ for reviewing, I understand this is direct knowledge, not thinking conceptually. It depends what conditions there are for the sekkhas (trainees) to put their minds to, so to speak."< #74996 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Aug 7, 2007 12:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness upasaka_howard Hi, Jon (and Swee Boon) - In a message dated 8/7/07 12:03:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: > > Hi Swee Boon > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > > > >Hi Jon, > > > >>What is being referred to here is the development of insight while > >>also developing samatha with breath as object (although at > different > >>moments). > >>The development of insight per se is not limited to those who have > >>attained the jhanas through anapanasati. > > > >Does that mean it is possible to develop insight to the degree of > >stream-entry through anapanasati but without developing samatha? > > A person who is developing both samatha and insight has no way of > knowing whether jhana will be attained before enlightenment or > enlightenment before jhana (or, of course, neither ;-)). Either > outcome is possible, as is mentioned in the texts. > > However, the scenario contemplated in the anapanasti section of DN 22 > is jhana before enlightenment, no doubt becuase there were many > (within and without the order of monks) who had already attained, or > were capable of attaining, jhana with breath as object. > > To answer your question another way, there is nothing about the > attainment of jhana per se that predisposes a person towards > enlightenment. > --------------------------------------------- Howard: Not so, Jon. Concentration leads other factors, as seen in one or more of those "spiral suttas" Iwrote you about long ago. Moreover, Jhana is right concentration. -------------------------------------------- Enlightenment is the outcome of highly developed > > insight, and insight can only be developed (a) during a Buddha's > dispensation, and (b) by one who has a correct understanding of the > teachings on insight. Jhana + wrong view = no enlightenment! --------------------------------------------- Howard: Counterexample: paccekabuddhas. In any case, we are still in a Buddha's dispensation. ---------------------------------------------- > > >>>Another question: Why is an immediately past jhana citta not a > >>>concept? > >>A very good question. The answer is the same as why the > >>immediately past mind with akusala is not a concept: although it > >>has just fallen away it can still be the object of the succeeding > >>moment of consciousness. > > > >I am interested in this because of my curiosity over the magga > citta. > >Since the magga citta is followed immediately by phala citta, how > can > >one know that magga citta has arisen, since it appears not capable > of > >being the object of the succeeding moment of consciousness, ie. the > >phala citta. > > I will take a stab at this, but Sarah (and of course Nina who is away > at the moment) will be able to give a better answer than me. > > I can think of 2 reasons why a person who has attained enlightenment > would know it: > (1) Because the object of the magga citta is nibbana, an object > which is only experienced with magga citta (or certain post- > enlightenment cittas). > (2) Because it is followed by a reviewing citta which directly > perceives the defilements remainning. > > Hoping this helps. > > Jon > ========================= With metta, Howard #74997 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Aug 7, 2007 12:45 am Subject: TYPO Re: [dsg] Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness upasaka_howard Hi again, Jon - In a message dated 8/7/07 7:41:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@... writes: > Concentration leads other factors > ====================== That was intended to be "leads to". Sorry. With metta, Howard #74998 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Tue Aug 7, 2007 6:29 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (64) nichiconn dear friends, 11. Dvaadasakanipaato 1. Uppalava.n.naatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa part 10 txt: Saa taasa.m bhujissabhaave kate ekuunaani pa~ncaputtasataani taasa.myeva hatthe posanatthaaya datvaa saya.m mahaapadumakumaara.myeva ga.nhi. Athaaparabhaage tesa.m kumaaraana.m kii.lanavaye sampatte raajaa uyyaane naanaavidha.m kii.lana.t.thaana.m kaaresi. Te attano so.lasavassuddesikakaale sabbeva ekato hutvaa uyyaane padumasa~nchannaaya ma"ngalapokkhara.niyaa kii.lantaa navapadumaani pupphitaani puraa.napadumaani ca va.n.tato patantaani disvaa "imassa taava anupaadinnakassa evaruupaa jaraa paapu.naati, kima"nga.m pana amhaaka.m sariirassa. Idampi hi eva.mgatikameva bhavissatii"ti aaramma.na.m gahetvaa sabbeva paccekabodhi~naa.na.m nibbattetvaa u.t.thaayu.t.thaaya padumaka.n.nikaasu palla"nkena nisiidi.msu. Atha tehi saddhi.m gataraajapurisaa bahugata.m divasa.m ~natvaa "ayyaputtaa, tumhaaka.m vela.m jaanaathaa"ti aaha.msu. Pruitt: When they had been made free, the five hundred sons except for one were handed over to them to bring up. She herself took Prince Mahaa-Paduma. Afterwards, when those children were old enough to play, the king had a playground of great variety built in the royal garden. When they were sixteen, they played all together in the royal garden in the festive ponds covered with lotuses, and they saw young lotuses in bloom and old lotuses with stalks falling down. They thought, "If old age comes for something like this that is not a conscious organism, then how much more so [will it come] for our bodies. Such will be our destiny here." Taking that as support [for contemplation], they all produced the knowledge of awakening by oneself (pacceka-bodhi-~naa.na.m), and they all rose up and sat cross-legged on top of the lotuses. Then the king's men who had gone together with them, realizing that the day was far gone, said, "O princes, it is time." Te tu.nhii ahesu.m. Purisaa gantvaa ra~n~no aarocesu.m- "kumaaraa, deva, padumaka.n.nikaasu nisinnaa, amhesu kathentesupi vaciibheda.m na karontii"ti. "Yathaaruciyaa nesa.m nisiiditu.m dethaa"ti. Te sabbaratti.m gahitaarakkhaa padumaka.n.nikaasu nisinnaniyaameneva aru.na.m u.t.thaapesu.m. Purisaa punadivase upasa"nkamitvaa "devaa, vela.m jaanaathaa"ti aaha.msu. "Na maya.m devaa, paccekabuddhaa naama maya.m amhaa"ti. "Ayyaa, tumhe bhaariya.m katha.m kathetha, paccekabuddhaa naama tumhaadisaa na honti, dva"ngulakesamassudharaa kaaye pa.timukka-a.t.thaparikkhaaraa hontii"ti. Te dakkhi.nahatthena siisa.m paraamasi.msu, taavadeva gihili"nga.m antaradhaayi. A.t.tha parikkhaaraa kaaye pa.timukkaa ca ahesu.m. Tato passantasseva mahaajanassa aakaasena nandamuulakapabbhaara.m agama.msu. Saapi kho padumavatii devii "aha.m bahuputtaa hutvaa niputtaa jaataa"ti hadayasoka.m patvaa teneva sokena kaala"nkatvaa raajagahanagare dvaaragaamake sahatthena kamma.m katvaa jiivana.t.thaane nibbatti. They were silent. The men went to the king and explained, "O king, the boys are sitting on top of lotuses, and when we speak to them, they remain silent." "Let them sit as they wish," he replied. They were guarded all night long, and they were seated in that manner on top of the lotuses until sunrise. The men came the next day and said, "O kings, it is time." "We aren't kings," they replied, "We are Pacceka Buddhas." "Noble sirs," [the men] said, "what you say is very difficult. Pacceka Buddhas aren't like you. Their hair and beards are two inches long, and the eight requisites are tied to their bodies." "Now the, what you say is very difficult." [the Pacceka Buddhas] said. They touched their head with their right hand, and straight away, the characteristics of a householder disappeared. And the eight requisites were tied to their body. Then, as a great number of people looked on, they went through the sky to Nandamuulaka Cave. The Queen Padumavatii, broken hearted, thought, "I had many sons, and now I have no sons." Then she died of grief. ===tbc, connie #74999 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Aug 7, 2007 4:18 pm Subject: Re: What is the wrong view? (References from the MN anthology) indriyabala Hi Sarah (and others) - Sarah(#74993): We were discussing how at the second stage of insight, doubt about future and past, inc. future and past lives is eradicated, through the understanding of how namas and rupas arise due to conditions. (Vism XIX,5, 6) The first stage is: 1. naama-ruupa paricchedcheda-~naa.na, at which stage panna clearly understands the distinction between nama and rupa The second stage is: 2. paccaya-pariggaha-~naana, at which stage, panna clearly understands the conditioned nature of dhammas. At this stage, the anatta nature of dhammas is seen more clearly. T: Thank you for the Pali terms which help my recallection. Does the naama-ruupa paricchedcheda-~naa.na correspond to the right 'dassana' of the cula-sotapanna? ......... S: As the Vism quote indicates, by clearly understanding that the occurrence of namas and rupa is due to conditions ... So there is no more inclination to think with doubt about 'Was I...', 'Will I be....' Mere dhammas rolling on, due to conditions. No atta involved. T: According to MN 2, those questions result from ayoniso-manasikara that involves thoughts about 'I' in past, future, and present. It is interesting to notice that yoniso-manasikara about the Four Noble Truths can abandon the lower three fetters, one of which is the twenty identity views(sakkaaya-ditthi). It is clear this appropriate attention about the FNTs has "no atta involved" too. ............. S: Yes, no wise attention when there's any thinking like this, because it's all about 'Me' or 'Atta', no understanding at such times about conditioned dhammas. T: I agree that wise attention about the FNTs involves conditioned dhammas. And I believe that in most people such wise attention must be supported by practice of the magga factors. Do you see yoniso-manasikara about the FNTs as just thoughts that accompany "good listening" with no practice of the Noble eightfold Path, or both thoughts and practice? Thank you for the good discussion, Sarah. Tep ===