#75200 From: "colette" Date: Tue Aug 14, 2007 11:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Memory like a Sieve . . . [Found, not Lost] ksheri3 Hi Sarah, Ah, now I see, so you're our little red book representative here. lol This is how I read your msg, post, you are addressing Geoff and Zorro, I was mentioned mearly as a coincidence that raised some thoughts in your mind. I don't know but you must've mis-read or mis- interpreted my posts since I clearly stated Ronald Epstein, boy I'm taking a chance there since I don't have time to go back and reread things. SPEED KILLS, or so I am told and it is also a possiblity that you too suffer from the speed demon thing when reading through posts: for myself, sometimes I get reading so fast and have so many irons in the fire that I get the thoughts all jumbled up where I typically catch myself and return to the top and read slowly. Look there are so many people in this forum, like so many other forums I'm a part of, that I naturally expect that a lot of them will do nothing at all other than leach toxins. As for Geoff's recent flurry of activity toward myself I was begining to conceive that he had a personal relationship with Mr. Epstein and/or was an alter ego, a split personality, of Mr.Epstein's, it could be nothing more than a facade nevertheless, that's what I was considering as potentialities. I've gotta go into my Long-Winded Mode here. I make no excuses, I'm a practioner of the occult and the esoteric, have been since my automobile accident (Near Death Experience) in 1978, the USN had me and knows of me and my talents, as a communications & intelligence specialist so to does every covert agency in this country and with my writing history to governments and politicians I am certain that I'm fairily well known in a lot of circles, why for instance a professor at UIC wanted me to write a preface for his chapter on Racial Discrimination basing my pros on the case of Wen Ho Li, a nuclear physicist at Los Alamos labs, and at one time frequenting China; as it turned out one day IK got a little msg. from our Little Red Book playmates in China asking who was asking a lot of questions concerning certain situations, etc. Now in 2004 when I first started to find these groups on the web I made it perfectly clear that the things we discuss are probably going to be eavesdropped on by individuals that are quite unsavory (Dogs of War) and so we should be careful as to what we disclose amongst ourselves. Now recently I ran into a youngster, or so he says, that claims to be something that his grasp of the esoteric clearly shows that he is not. In a msg. he wrote to me the other day I haven't replied to it since he's a little too orthodox-conservative and he starts running around shouting this crap about conspiracy theories etc, basically "the sky is falling" stuff, about the only thing I was thinking of saying was to joke at him about his lack of composure since he clearly stepped out of character by "letting his Regardie show" I was gonna make a joke about that being one of his undergarments, such as knickers, and play the Church Lady or something to see if I could bring him out further or at least make him sweat a little. To make a long story short, IF Geoff is a masquerade of Ronald Epsein then I have no problems with it as long as he stays in character and not go to place himself in jeopardy by allowing his true self to come out and become egotystical by desiring credit for something that Ronald Epstein has done and not Geoff Morison. Geoff Morison would not have a desire nor an ego that would desire to accept the credit for something that another has done UNLESS HE WAS THAT OTHER PERSON. To end this here, does Jonathon Abott and yourself have similar Hong Kong calling cards? The stories I recall from my days in San Diego (USN) concerning Hong Kong although I never made that port. Every West Pack Sailor craves to go to Hong Kong: "You can buy or sell ANYTHING IN HONG KONG" kindof like the Khyber Pass except that's only weapons. toodles, colette #75201 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Aug 14, 2007 9:13 pm Subject: Vism.XVII,178 Vism.XCII,179 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga), Ch. XVII 178. That of the sense sphere divided up as aforesaid is a condition in two ways, as aforesaid, for seven kinds of limited [-sphere] resultant consciousness ((34)-(40))--excluding the root-causeless mind consciousness element accompanied by equanimity (41)--in the course of an existence, but not in rebirth-linking, in the happy destinies in the sense-sphere becoming. And that same formation is a condition likewise for five kinds of resultant consciousness ((34), (35), (39)-(41)) in the course of an existence, not in rebirth-linking, in the fine-material becoming. It is a condition likewise for eight kinds of limited [-sphere] resultant consciousness ((34)-(41)) in the course of an existence, not in rebirth-linking, in the unhappy destinies in the sense-sphere becoming. For then it is a condition [for such profitable-resultant consciousness occurring] in hell encountering a desirable object [on such occasions] as the Elder Mahaa-Moggallaana's visits to hell, and so on. But among animals and powerful ghosts too a desirable object is obtained [through the same condition]. 179. This eightfold formation of merit is also a condition likewise for sixteen kinds of profitable-resultant consciousness in the course of an existence ((34)-(41)) and in rebirth-linking ((42)-(49)) in the happy destinies in the sense-sphere becoming. It is also a condition equally for all ten kinds of resultant consciousness in the course of an existence ((34), (35), (39)-(41) and in rebirth-linking ((57)-(61)) in the fine-material becoming. ******************** 178. vuttappabhedakaamaavacaro pana kaamabhave sugatiya.m upekkhaasahagataahetumanovi~n~naa.nadhaatuvajjaana.m sattanna.m parittavipaakavi~n~naa.naana.m vuttanayeneva dvedhaa paccayo pavatte, no pa.tisandhiya.m. sveva ruupabhave pa~ncanna.m vipaakavi~n~naa.naana.m tatheva paccayo pavatte, no pa.tisandhiya.m. kaamabhave pana duggatiya.m a.t.thannampi parittavipaakavi~n~naa.naana.m tatheva paccayo pavatte, no pa.tisandhiya.m. tattha niraye mahaamoggallaanattherassa narakacaarikaadiisu i.t.thaaramma.nasamaayoge so paccayo hoti, tiracchaanesu pana petamahiddhikesu ca i.t.thaaramma.na.m labbhatiyeva. 179. sveva kaamabhave sugatiya.m so.lasannampi kusalavipaakavi~n~naa.naana.m tatheva paccayo pavatte ca pa.tisandhiya~nca. avisesena pana pu~n~naabhisa"nkhaaro ruupabhave dasanna.m vipaakavi~n~naa.naana.m tatheva paccayo pavatte ca pa.tisandhiya~nca. #75202 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Tue Aug 14, 2007 9:44 pm Subject: Vism.XVII, 178-179 nichiconn Path of Purity, p.667-8: The preparation for merit of the world of sense, mentioned above, is a twofold cause in the manner, mentioned above, at procedure, not rebirth, of seven classes of limited resultant consciousness, without the unconditioned mind-consciousness-element, associated with indifference in a happy course in the world of sense. And the same is such a cause at procedure, not rebirth of five classes of resultant consciousness in the world of form. It is such a cause [557], in procedure, not at rebirth, of eight classes of limited resultant consciousness in an unhappy world of sense. And it is a cause (of such consciousness) on meeting with a desirable object on such occasions as when Mahamoggallaana the Elder makes his round of the hells. {Cf. Dhammapada A.t.thakathaa iii, 69.} And a desirable objects is obtainable among animals and Petas of great power. The said preparation for merit is such a cause, in procedure and at rebirth, of sixteen classes of moral resultant consciousness in a happy world of sense. But generally speaking the preparation for merit is such a cause in procedure and at rebirth, of ten classes of resultant consciousness in the world of form. #75203 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:12 am Subject: Q. re Condiitons 10, no 5. nilovg Dear Scott, -------- When we develop vipassanaa, awareness of naama and ruupa occurs during the moments of javana. Just as one by applying oneself again and again to study becomes more proficient in understanding texts, evenso can there be more proficiency in understanding realities when there is repeated application of understanding during the moments of javana-cittas. Each one of these conditions the next one by repetition-condition and in this way understanding can be accumulated." Scott: Could you please elaborate on the above? My understanding, given the above explanation, is that at each of the seven moments of javana, 'awareness' (and I'm reading pa~n~naa here), arises? ------- N: Yes, the seven types of javana are the same types. Thus, if the first kusala citta is accompanied by pa~n~naa, so is the second one, etc. -------- S:And is it here, during these moments of javana, that lasting mental development (bhaavanaa) occurs? ------ N: During these moments pa~n~naa is accumulated. The cittas fall away, but pa~n~naa and all the sobhana qualities are accumulated so that there are conditions for the arising again of pa~n~naa. I would not speak of lasting bhaavanaa. Bhaavanaa occurs from moment to moment. As we are reminded all the time: it is dhamma, a conditioned reality. We do not own it. We cannot direct it. -------- S: Is it fair to suggest that the javana process functions to consolidate or strengthen pa~n~naa? ------- N: At the moments of the kusala javanacittas accompanied by pa~n~naa, pa~n~naa is growing and developing. It happens already, and nobody who can do anything. I would not say: the javana process functions to consolidate or strengthen pa~n~naa. That sounds as if there is pa~n~naa which exists somewhere and has to be consolidated. Some people may think of a self that possesses pa~n~naa. There may be a tendency to think that accumulation is 'mine'. But what is accumulated in the citta is not something that lasts or that we possess. Nina. #75204 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:41 am Subject: re: not hard to accept. nilovg Dear Andrew and Scott, ------- Scott: Paccavekkhana is not just thinking, as you note. I see where > it refers to a 'reviewing' or a going over something a second time. I > see how 'reflection' is given as one of the functions of pa~n~na > (Dhammasa"ngani). > > I'm assuming that this too has to arise and cannot be directed. In > Atthasaalinii it is said: > > "'Reflection,' or, in whom it arises it makes him think of > impermanence - this is 'reflection.'" ------- N: Reflection, here in Pali: cinta. Cinteti is thinking of an object. The English term thinking is used, or reflection, or investigation, there are many synomyms for pa~n~naa to show different aspects. These terms are not the same as what we mean by them in conventional language. But we need not be confused if we understand that pa~n~naa is a cetasika accompanying citta, that performs its function just for a moment. Reviewing or Paccavekkhana that Scott uses as an example is pa~n~naa arising after the lokuttara cittas that have fallen away. Pa~n~naa realizes the nature of those cittas, it realizes the defilements that were eradicated, it realizes nibbaana. This happens very quickly, from moment to moment. It is not thinking about something as we use the word thinking in conventional language. It is the same for right thinking of the eightfold Path that has nama or rupa as object. It 'hits' that nama or rupa so that right understanding can know its true nature. Sammaasankappa and sammaadi.t.thi are called the wisdom of the eightfold Path. When these can be realized as condiitoned dhammas there will be no confusion about them. ------- Andrew: I am a little confused, too. Are thinking and reflection two different dhammas or the same dhamma but associated with different sets of cetasikas? ------- N: It depends on the context. See above. Rahula had to reflect before speech or action. Here is implied that he should not be forgetful of dhammas. When there is the committing of a bad deed there are always many akusala cittas before and also after this deed is committed. I just heard on tape that even in dreams there can be mano-kamma that is able to condition vipaaka, according to the commentaries. This shows the anattaness of cittas. It is also an exhortation not to be neglectful during the day. In one sutta I read that what one is engaged with during the day is like a fire that smokes by night. This makes us think twice about our way of speech, even useless or joking speech. -------- A: The last quote above seems to suggest that reflection is citta with vicara + vitakka and with anicca as object? So it couldn't be satipatthana (as anicca isn't a dhamma). ------- N: The citta that develops the eightfold Path is accompanied by pa~n~naa and also right thinking, and other factors (not all eight). Pa~n~naa investigates the true nature of nama and rupa and when it is developed it realizes the impermanence, the arising and falling away of a nama or rupa. Anicca is always anicca of a nama or rupa. Thus, this refers to satipatthana. What do you think? Nina. #75205 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 1:21 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Satipatthana as island of refuge. nilovg Dear Tep, ------ T: In case of a virtuous Buddhist who is normally free from the hindrances, such as sense-desire & ill-will, I believe he still needs to develop right concentration (samma-samadhi as defined in DN 22). ------- N: Right concentration is a Path factor, but whether he develops jhaana or not depends on his accumulations. -------- [>Nina: "The never-retuner-such is the person who fulfills the moral laws and completes the practice of concentration, but incompletely practises insight."] T: Even after he has become a non-returner, the developed samma- samaadhi (via practicing concentration) is a conditioned dhamma which is not permanent. So, why is there "no need to attain jhaana" again and again? .......... N: He has developed all Path factors, including right concentration, to the extent that sense-desire and illwill were eradicated for good. He does not need to develop jhaana in order to subdue sensedesire. It depends on his inclinations whether he develops jhaana or not. --------- N: "The anaagami has fulfilled calm, because he has eradicated attachment to sense-pleasures. This is also the case if he has not developed jhaana. By nature he is calm." T: I see. So, that is what you meant by "The anaagaami has eradicated all attachment to sense objects and all aversion. In this sense he is perfect in samaadhi." (message #75162) .......... N: "Here we see that by sukkha vipassana enlightenment can be attained. "All arahats have eradicated the defilements completely, but they have different degrees of qualities. Some have mastery of all jhanas and also the four discriminations, some have mastery of all jhanas but are not endowed with the discriminations, some are sukkha vipassaka." T: Thank you very much for the information. Was it (the above passage) taken from "The puggala pa~n~natti, the Abhidhamma book on Human Types" ? ---- N: Yes, this is a passage from The puggala pa~n~natti, the Abhidhamma book on Human Types" . .......... [ T: The following is your reply to my quote from the Vism about "the attainment of cessation through the eight attainments" by a certain kind of anaagami puggala.] N: That is right. Only those who also developed jhaana can attain cessation. T: Can the arahants who are sukkha-vipassaka attain "cessation" without the mastery of all jhanas? Or, is there another kind of cessation that does not require the mastery of all jhaanas? (BTW I ask these questions because I do not know the answers.) ------- N: Cessation requires a certain practice: he has to determine beforehand the time of emerging etc. Required are the jhaanas and the mastery (vassi) of these in attaining and emerging etc. It is only for the jhaanalabhii. This goes also for arahats. Nina. #75206 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 3:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness jonoabb Hi Swee Boon nidive wrote: > Hi Jon (& Howard), > >> I think you are referring in particlur to the simile of the royal >> frontier fortress at the end of the sutta, and the mention there of >> the pair of swift messengers representing samatha and vipassana. >> >> I do not find this simile an easy one to understand, even with the >> detailed explanation of who or what represents who or what. >> Perhaps you could say a few words about it. Thanks. >> > > Since insight and samatha must come in a pair, this means that mere > insight alone would not lead to nibbana. > I agree that this simile describes the attainment of enlightenment as preceded by samatha/jhana. However, I don't think it says that enlightenment must necessarily be preceded by insight. I think it is addressed to a monk who has the necessary disposition for enlightenment with jhana as basis, and that is the reason why samatha is mentioned as one of the pair of messengers. >> I notice there are four pairs of messengers in all. Would they >> represent the 4 stages of enlightenment, do you think? > > My opinion is that they represent the four frames of reference. > The relevant part of the simile, with the explanation given for the items mentioned, reads: "The swift pair of messengers [= samatha and insight], delivering their accurate report [= nibbana] to the commander of the fortress [= consciousness], would then go back by the route by which they had come [= the Noble Eightfold Path]." This seems to refer to enlightenment, rather than the four frames of reference, wouldn't you say? > In MN 118, the Buddha explained how the four frames of reference are > developed & pursused so as to bring the seven factors of awakening to > their culmination. ... > The rest of your post addresses a slightly different point, I think. I hope you don't mind if I respond separately. Thanks. Jon #75207 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 5:46 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (64) nichiconn dear friends, 11. Dvaadasakanipaato 1. Uppalava.n.naatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa part 18 txt: ekadivasa.m kaamaana.m aadiinava.m okaara.m sa.mkilesa~nca paccavekkhamaanaa ga"ngaatiiriyattherassa maatuyaa dhiitaaya saddhi.m sapattivaasa.m uddissa sa.mvegajaataaya vuttagaathaa paccanubhaasantii- 224. "ubho maataa ca dhiitaa ca, maya.m aasu.m sapattiyo; tassaa me ahu sa.mvego, abbhuto lomaha.msano. 225. "Dhiratthu kaamaa asucii, duggandhaa bahuka.n.takaa; yattha maataa ca dhiitaa ca, sabhariyaa maya.m ahu.m. 226. "Kaamesvaadiinava.m disvaa, nekkhamma.m da.t.thu khemato; saa pabbaji.m raajagahe, agaarasmaanagaariyan"ti.- Imaa tisso gaathaa abhaasi. Pruitt: One day, considering the danger, degradation, and defilement of sensual pleasures with regard to the mother and daugher of Thera Ga"ngaatiriya* who lived together as his co-wives, she repeated the verses that were spoken [by the mother] when a profound stirring arose. She spoke these three verses: 224. The two of us, mother and daughter, were co-wives. I experienced a profound stirring, amazing, hair-raising. 225. Woe upon sensual pleasures, impure, evil smelling, with many troubles, wherein we, mother and daughter, were co-wives. 226. I saw the peril in sensual pleasures, and [I saw] renunciation [of the world] as firm security. I went forth at Raajagaha from home to the homeless state.** *Two verses are attributed to him in Th (vv.127f). {www.palikanon.com/english/pali_names/g/gangaatiiriya.htm } **For "I saw ... security" see Th-a II, pp. 192f ad v.458. "Renunciation" is also commented on below with v.339 (p302) {Subhaa, Sisters 70} and v.403 (p.335) {Isidaasii, Sisters 72}. For "I went forth .. homeless state," see the note with v.90 above, p.117, n.1. {For "I went forth," see Th-a I 229 ad v. 108. For "into the homeless state," see Th-a I 126 ad v.46 Mittaakaalii, Sisters 43} RD: And the Master, seated in conclave in the Jeta Grove, assigned her the foremost rank in the mystic powers. She, pondering the bliss of Jhana and of fruition, repeated one day certain verses. They had been uttered in anguish by a mother who had been living as her daughter's rival with him who later, when a Bhikkhu, became known as the Ganges-bank Elder, *324 and were a reflection on the harm, the vileness and corruption of sensual desires: I. 'In enmity we lived, bound to one man, Mother and daughter, both as rival wives! O what a woeful plight, I found, was ours, Unnatural offence! My hair stood up. (224) Horror fell on me. Fie upon this life Of sensual desire, impure and foul, A jungle thick with thorny brake, wherein We hapless pair, my girl and I, had strayed!' (225) The evils in the life of sense, the strong Sure refuge in renouncing all, she saw. At Raajagaha went she forth *325 and left The home to live the life where no home is. (226) *325 I have read pabbaji, not pabbaji.m, following the majority of the MSS. consulted by Pischel, as well as the Commentary. It is less forced to read, in saa, 'she,' and not 'I,' where no other pronoun follows (saa'ha.m). Verse (226) thus becomes the comment of Uppalava.n.naa on the mother's distressful utterance. .. to be continued, connie #75208 From: "nidive" Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 7:41 am Subject: Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness nidive Hi Jon, > I agree that this simile describes the attainment of enlightenment > as preceded by samatha/jhana. However, I don't think it says that > enlightenment must necessarily be preceded by insight. I think it > is addressed to a monk who has the necessary disposition for > enlightenment with jhana as basis, and that is the reason why > samatha is mentioned as one of the pair of messengers. It has occurred to me that any sutta that mentions 'insight' and 'samatha' together in the same sentence can be interpreted as "enlightenment with jhana as basis". Isn't that a perfect formula? > The relevant part of the simile, with the explanation given for the > items mentioned, reads: > > "The swift pair of messengers [= samatha and insight], delivering > their accurate report [= nibbana] to the commander of the fortress > [= consciousness], would then go back by the route by which they > had come [= the Noble Eightfold Path]." > > This seems to refer to enlightenment, rather than the four frames > of reference, wouldn't you say? The directions (north, south, east, west) represent the four frames of reference. As in MN 118, four frames of reference when developed & pursued brings the seven factors of awakening (summarized as insight & samatha in Kimsuka) to their culmination. The seven factors of awakening when developed & pursued brings clear knowing & release to their culmination. So you are right it refers to enlightenment, but enlightenment can always be traced back to the four frames of reference. The four frames of reference are the basis for enlightenment. Swee Boon #75209 From: "nidive" Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 7:59 am Subject: Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness nidive Hi Jon again, > > "The swift pair of messengers [= samatha and insight], delivering > > their accurate report [= nibbana] to the commander of the fortress > > [= consciousness], would then go back by the route by which they > > had come [= the Noble Eightfold Path]." > > > > This seems to refer to enlightenment, rather than the four frames > > of reference, wouldn't you say? > > The directions (north, south, east, west) represent the four frames > of reference. If the directions represent the four levels of awakening, then the passage above would imply that there are no differences among the four levels. I am sure the Buddha would not make such a gaffe. The above passage refers to the enlightenment of an arahant. Swee Boon #75210 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 9:13 am Subject: Howard As A Good Friend Of Theravada -- Re: Proper Training as a Contemplative buddhatrue Hi Ken H., --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi James, > > -------------- > <. . .> > J: > I was just trying to point > out that differences of perspective don't always mean better/worse, > advanced/beginner, etc., they are just differences. > > I have pointed out the uniqueness of the KS philosophy > --------------- > > There is no KS philosophy. Decades ago, KS noticed something the > ancient commentaries were saying, and she brought it to the attention > of others. Since then (largely because of her) more and more > commentaries have been translated, and the message they contain has > become clear to anyone who wants to know it. None of this has > anything to do with a personal KS philosophy. I find your view of history rather distorted. The commentaries are not like the Dead Sea Scrolls which KS dug up and revealed to the world. The commentaries were available and studied by the bhikkhusangha for centuries. This is the same bhikkhusangha which teaches and advocates a deliberate process of mental purification, as it always has. The only thing KS did was to intepret the commentaries in a different way- in a way which views mental purification as a passive process rather than an active process. It is appealing to think that KS discovered some sort of "secret", but that isn't the case at all. Again, your thinking bends toward the grandiose and fanatical rather than the realistic. Metta, James #75211 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 11:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Howard As A Good Friend Of Theravada -- Re: Proper Training as a Contemplative nilovg Hi James, the commentaries were not available in Thai, only the Co to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha, she studied with Acharn Naeb. She indeed saw to it that Co were translated into Thai. A comittee was formed and especially Prof Somporn translated almost all commentaries. Thanks to her enthusiasm. She was the sould of this great work. I was present at the beginning, when we went to the Bovornives Temple and a friend, Khun Kulin, jotted down what a bhikkhu translated from the Pali. Now at the Mahamakut Library one can find the suttas with commentary. Each sutta is followed by its commentary. I bought many of them. Op 15-aug-2007, om 18:13 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > I find your view of history rather distorted. The commentaries are > not like the Dead Sea Scrolls which KS dug up and revealed to the > world. The commentaries were available and studied by the > bhikkhusangha for centuries. --------- J: The only thing KS did was to intepret the commentaries in a different way- in a way which views mental purification as a passive process rather than an active process. It is appealing to think that KS discovered some sort of "secret", but that isn't the case at all. ------- N: You think in this way because you misunderstood. Please be careful and always keep in mind that you may misunderstand her. Perhaps in another thread this can be discussed, or, it may be a repetition. Anyway Lodewijk is very upset by the term 'Khun Sujinese' that is used here at times. It sounds so degrading. Lack of respect for others. Nina. #75212 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 11:21 am Subject: Asoka, Ch 1, no 6. nilovg Dear friends, While the Buddha stayed at the Jeta Grove many people visited him in order to pay respect and listen to the Dhamma. We read in the Commentary to the “Brahmajåla Sutta” (Dialogues of the Buddha, Dígha Nikåya I, no.1), in the “Sumangala Vilåsiní” about the daily routine of the Buddha. In the morning he would go out on his alms round, and accept people’s offerings. When he had finished his meal he surveyed the dispositions of the people present and then taught Dhamma to them. Upon his return to the monastery he sat in the pavilion, waiting until the monks had finished their meal. Then he entered his dwelling place, the “Fragrant Cottage”. In the afternoon he washed his feet and after that he exhorted the monks and gave those who requested it a meditation subject [1]. After that the monks retired to different places such as the forest, the foot of a tree or the mountains. The Buddha entered his Fragrant Cottage and if he wished he lay down for a few moments in the “lion’s posture”, mindful and clearly conscious. He then rose and in the second part of the afternoon he surveyed the world. In the third part of the afternoon he taught Dhamma to the people who visited him and paid respect to him. When he had finished his afternoon activities, if he wanted to bathe, he entered the bathroom and refreshed his body with water brought by his attendant. After the Buddha had put on his robes and sat alone for a few moments in solitary meditation, the monks came to him, asking questions, requesting meditation subjects and asking for his explanation about points of Dhamma. These were his activities in the first watch of the night. In the middle watch of the night deities visited him asking questions, and the Buddha replied to their questions. The last watch of the night was divided into three parts: in the first part he walked up and down since he had been sitting for a long time; in the second part he entered the Fragrant Cottage and lay down on his right side, in the lion’s posture, mindful and clearly conscious; in the third part he rose and surveyed the world with his Buddha-eye in order to see who had in the past performed dåna and observed síla in the presence of past Buddhas. Thus we see that the Buddha was intent on the welfare of others all the time. While we were in the Jeta Grove we sat down near the spot where once was the Buddha’s dwelling place and we recited from the Vinaya (Book of Discipline, V, Cullavagga VI, 154) the story about Anåthapindika who bought the Jeta Grove and presented it to the Buddha. Then we had a Dhamma discussion and after dark we paid respect by going around the Buddha’s dwelling place three times. -------------- 1. Meditation subject, kammatthåna, does not only refer to a meditation subject of samatha. We read in the “Manorathapúrani”, the commentary to the “Gradual Sayings”(Book of the Threes, Ch 7, § 61, Tenets), that with the meditation subjects which are the five khandhas, all rúpa and nåma, one can become an arahat. These subjects are all realities appearing now. ******** Nina. #75213 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 11:13 am Subject: Conditions, Ch 10, no 6. nilovg Dear friends, When there is no mindfulness, there is bound to be clinging during the moments of javana. When we, for example, use a soft cushion, there is likely to be clinging but we may not notice it. When sati arises, there can be understanding of softness as only a rúpa, not a cushion, or, when the experience of softness is the object of sati, it can be realized as only a nåma, an experience. We may think that we can possess things and this can lead to covetousness, avarice, jealousy and many other kinds of defilements. In reality there is no possessor, only seeing which experiences visible object, or touching which experiences tangible object, and other moments of experiencing one object at a time. All these realities fall way, they do not stay. Gradually we may know the difference between moments without sati, when we cling to concepts we are thinking of, and moments with sati, when only one reality at a time appears through one of the six doors. Not theoretical understanding, but only direct understanding of realities can lead to eradication of defilements. Enlightenment can be attained only if there have been many processes with javana-cittas accompanied by right understanding of realities, even in the course of countless lives. The following sutta from the “Kindred Sayings”(V, Mahå-vagga, Book II, XLVI, Kindred Sayings on the Limbs of Wisdom, Ch IV, § 8, Restraint and hindrance) reminds us of the importance of listening to the Dhamma and considering it as condition for the development of the factors leading to enlightenment. We read that the Buddha said: Monks, there are these five checks, hindrances and corruptions of the heart, which weaken insight. What five? Sensual desire, monks, is a check and hindrance, a corruption of the heart, that weakens insight. Malevolence... sloth and torpor... excitement and flurry... doubt and wavering... These five... weaken insight. The seven limbs of wisdom [1], monks, if unrestrained, unhindered, if cultivated and made much of with uncorrupted heart, conduce to realizing the fruits of liberation by knowledge. What seven? Herein a monk cultivates the limb of wisdom that is mindfulness... the limb of wisdom that is investigation of the Dhamma... the limb of wisdom that is energy... the limb of wisdom that is rapture (píti), the limb of wisdom that is tranquillity... the limb of wisdom that is concentration... the limb of wisdom that is equanimity, that is based on seclusion, on dispassion, on cessation, that ends in self-surrender. Now, monks, at the time when the ariyan disciple makes the Dhamma his object, gives attention to it, with all his mind considers it, with ready ear listens to the Dhamma, - at such time these five hindrances exist not in him: at such time the seven limbs of wisdom by cultivation go to fulfilment.... --------- 1. Bojjhanga or factors of enlightenment. ******* Nina. #75214 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 8:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Howard As A Good Friend Of Theravada -- Re: Proper Training as a Co... upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and James) - In a message dated 8/15/07 2:39:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi James, > the commentaries were not available in Thai, only the Co to the > Abhidhammattha Sangaha, she studied with Acharn Naeb. ==================== That's interesting! As I recall, Ajahn Naeb was a famous meditation teacher. I think she emphasized motionless sitting and attending to the bodily pain that results and the aversive reactions to that. With metta, Howard #75215 From: "m. nease" Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 2:11 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Asoka, Ch 1, no 6. m_nease Hi Nina, Thanks for this and especially for the footnote: ----- Original Message ----- From: Nina van Gorkom To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 11:21 AM Subject: [dsg] Asoka, Ch 1, no 6. -------------- 1. Meditation subject, kammatthåna, does not only refer to a meditation subject of samatha. We read in the “Manorathapúrani”, the commentary to the “Gradual Sayings”(Book of the Threes, Ch 7, § 61, Tenets), that with the meditation subjects which are the five khandhas, all rúpa and nåma, one can become an arahat. These subjects are all realities appearing now. Why do we never hear of mindfulness of perception (sa~n~nanusati?)? Ring any bells? Thanks, mike #75216 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 3:25 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Samatha as taught by the Buddha jonoabb Hi Howard upasaka@... wrote: > Hi, Jon - > > In a message dated 8/12/07 2:26:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > jonabbott@... writes: > > >> Hi Howard >> >> >>> From: upasaka@... >>> Date: 2007/08/11 Sat PM 08:54:50 HKT >>> To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >>> Subject: Re: [dsg] Samatha as taught by the Buddha >>> >>> Hi, Jon - >>> >> ... >> >>>> If we take for example a kasina as object, what do you say is the >>>> development of samatha/jhana as taught by the Buddha? I am not aware >>>> of any specific mention of this in the suttas. >>>> >>> ----------------------------------------- >>> Howard: >>> As far as I know, there is very little discussion of kasinas in the >>> suttas. >>> -------------------------------------- >>> >> That is my understanding too. My point is, if the Buddha's teaching on >> samatha/jhana differs from the samatha/jhana known before him, he would surely >> have taught in detail about the difference. Otherwise, his followers would not >> know how to develop the Buddha's jhana. But from what you say there is no >> such teaching of the actual development of this samatha/jhana to be found. >> > > -------------------------------------------- > Howard: > The Buddha taught the jhanas he wished to teach. There was no need to > talk about other meditation teachings. There are many suttas that teach about > the jhanas. Yes, and included in these suttas is reference to the 40 kammatthana including the kasinas. So clearly, as far as the Buddha was concerned, the kasinas were a suitable object for samatha development. > As for meditation "technique" and details, I'm sure that was an > individual matter taught directly to the students sometimes by the Buddha himself > but more often by his appointees. > But where in the suttas is there any direct reference to (a) the development of samatha as meant by the Buddha being different to that already known, or (b) the specifics of that difference, as guidance to his followers? > ------------------------------------------- > Howard: > What do you mean with regard to not knowing about "decision"? Do you > mean with respect to exactly what it refers to? It *is* listed. (I don't know > what the Pali is.) > -------------------------------------------- > I mean that without knowing what the Pali is I can't comment. Sorry, but I haven't yet had a chance to check it. But 'volition' and 'attention' are clearly universals. >> Although there is no specific mention of the directing being outside jhana, >> I don't see how that possibility could be ruled out. It seems, if I may say >> so, a rather flimsy basis on which to postulate the teaching of a different >> jhana. >> > > -------------------------------------------- > Howard: > And I think that if leaving the jhana were requisite it would likely > be mentioned, for that would be important. There is no suggestion at all to > that effect as far as I can see. I, of course, cannot KNOW that there is no > leaving, but there is no reason for suspcting it that I'm aware of. > -------------------------------------------- > Yes, either way it's a matter of inference, I agree. But there are many references in the suttas to attaining the 4th jhana and then directing the mind to various other attainments based on that, and I think the commentarial position is consistent as to how this is to be read. For example, in the simile of the frontier city from the Kimsuka Tree Sutta I'm currently discussing with Swee Boon (SN 35:245 in the CDB translation by BB), there is an extract from the commentary which specifically mentions developing insight after emerging form jhana (see Note 207 at p. 1428). I understand this to be the standard commentarial description of the 'in-tandem' process. >> In fact, on what you have said, there is no actual *teaching* of a different >> jhana, only a passing reference to it. Is that correct? >> > > -------------------------------------------- > Howard: > The Buddha had been taught all the old methods and was dissatisfied. > Then he recalled his own meditation under the rose-apple tree as a young boy, > and resumed that practice. Specifically, there is the following from MN 36: > _ _ _ _ _ _ _ > > I thought: 'I recall once, when my father the Sakyan was working, and I was > sitting in the cool shade of a rose-apple tree, then — quite withdrawn from > sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities — I entered & remained in > the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by > directed thought & evaluation. Could that be the path to Awakening?' Then, > following on that memory, came the realization: 'That is the path to Awakening.' > _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ > > Now the Buddha was already familiar with the jhanas of his teachers. > So what is going on here? What is going on, IMO, is recalling the different > approach of his youth, an approach that he chose to resume. > ------------------------------------------------- > Yes, the jhanas are part of the path to awakening for a Buddha, in the sense that he is to attain enlightenment with the jhanas as basis. His recalling of his childhood experience does not necessarily imply a difference between the jhanas then attained and those attained when with his teachers as a recluse. (If there were a difference one would expect to find some reference to this in the texts or commentaries, as it would surely have been part of the lore of the time.) Jon #75217 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 3:50 pm Subject: Re: Satipatthana as island of refuge. indriyabala Hi Nina, - Putting together your previous three explanations about the anaagaami samaadhi, now it is clear to me what you mean by "no need to attain jhaana". >N: Right concentration is a Path factor, but whether he develops jhaana or not depends on his accumulations. >N: He has developed all Path factors, including right concentration, to the extent that sense-desire and illwill were eradicated for good. He does not need to develop jhaana in order to subdue sensedesire. It depends on his inclinations whether he develops jhaana or not. >N: The anaagami has fulfilled calm, because he has eradicated attachment to sense-pleasures. This is also the case if he has not developed jhaana. By nature he is calm. T: Thank you for the patience. ......... N: Cessation requires a certain practice: he has to determine beforehand the time of emerging etc. Required are the jhaanas and the mastery (vassi) of these in attaining and emerging etc. It is only for the jhaanalabhii. This goes also for arahats. That answers my question very well, Nina. Thanks. Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Tep, > ------ > > T: In case of a virtuous Buddhist who is normally free from the > hindrances, such as sense-desire & ill-will, I believe he still needs > to develop right concentration (samma-samadhi as defined in DN 22). > ------- #75218 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 4:16 pm Subject: Re: Asoka, Ch 1, no 6. indriyabala Hi Nina and Mike, - I appreciate the story about the Buddha's daily activities, etc. N: After the Buddha had put on his robes and sat alone for a few moments in solitary meditation, the monks came to him, asking questions, requesting meditation subjects and asking for his explanation about points of Dhamma. T: I also have read some stories in which He sometimes took a leave of a few days up to three months to be alone, away from the disciples (except one or two). How did such a "solitary meditation" benefit the Buddha who no longer had to develop siila, samaadhi or panna ? Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear friends, > .... .. When he had finished his afternoon activities, if he wanted to bathe, he entered the bathroom and refreshed his body with water brought by his attendant. After the Buddha had put on his robes and sat alone for a few moments in solitary meditation, the monks came to him, asking questions, requesting meditation subjects and asking for his explanation about points of Dhamma. These were his activities in the first watch of the night. In the middle watch of the night deities visited him asking questions, and the Buddha replied to their questions. #75219 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:31 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Asoka, Ch 1, no 6. upasaka_howard Hi, Tep (and Nina & Mike) - In a message dated 8/15/07 7:17:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time, indriyabala@... writes: > Hi Nina and Mike, - > > I appreciate the story about the Buddha's daily activities, etc. > > N: After the Buddha had put on his robes and sat alone for a few > moments in solitary meditation, the monks came to him, asking > questions, requesting meditation subjects and asking for his > explanation about points of Dhamma. > > T: I also have read some stories in which He sometimes took a leave > of a few days up to three months to be alone, away from the disciples > (except one or two). How did such a "solitary meditation" benefit the > Buddha who no longer had to develop siila, samaadhi or panna ? --------------------------------------- Howard: Perhapsit benefitted the *others*. A buddha is omniscient in the sense that he can fully know *whatever he turns his mind to*. Maybe his meditating is such an intense directing of his attention? --------------------------------- > > Tep > ==================== With metta, Howard #75220 From: "m. nease" Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 4:31 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Asoka, Ch 1, no 6. m_nease Hi Tep (and Nina), I've always--for a very long time, at least--found these episodes fascinating. He would even instruct Aananada that he wasn't to be disturbed, as I recall. I don't have an answer for you but agree with you that it wasn't for the development of anything. Do you have any ideas? mike p.s. Thanks to you and Scott for your recent, excellent discussion. It was a great tonic to the tone of the list and I felt it a real privilege to be in the audience. ----- Original Message ----- From: Tep Sastri To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 4:16 PM Subject: [dsg] Re: Asoka, Ch 1, no 6. Hi Nina and Mike, - I appreciate the story about the Buddha's daily activities, etc. N: After the Buddha had put on his robes and sat alone for a few moments in solitary meditation, the monks came to him, asking questions, requesting meditation subjects and asking for his explanation about points of Dhamma. T: I also have read some stories in which He sometimes took a leave of a few days up to three months to be alone, away from the disciples (except one or two). How did such a "solitary meditation" benefit the Buddha who no longer had to develop siila, samaadhi or panna ? Tep #75221 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 6:49 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Asoka, Ch 1, no 6. indriyabala Hi Mike and Howard (and Nina), - Thank you both for sharing your good thoughts with me. Howard (#75219): Perhaps it benefitted the *others*. A buddha is omniscient in the sense that he can fully know *whatever he turns his mind to*. Maybe his meditating is such an intense directing of his attention? ------------------------ Mike (#75220): I've always--for a very long time, at least--found these episodes fascinating. He would even instruct Aananada that he wasn't to be disturbed, as I recall. I don't have an answer for you but agree with you that it wasn't for the development of anything. Do you have any ideas? ------------------------ T: Yes, Howard, that might be the case when he directed the mind and inclined it "to knowledge of the awareness of other beings" [DN 1], so that he could prescribe a right kind of Dhamma for a certain person who came to seek his advice. But for the case in question when he stayed in solitude (like Mike said) for a long period of time, it must be for a special purpose! No, I do not have any ideas, Mike. I need Nina's help. .............. Mike: > p.s. Thanks to you and Scott for your recent, excellent discussion. It was a great tonic to the tone of the list and I felt it a real privilege to be in the audience. T: I appreciate your kind thought, Mike. The discussion depended a great deal on Scott's skillful questions and his patience with me. He motivated me to be very careful ! Tep === #75222 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 11:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness jonoabb Correction. Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi Swee Boon > > ... > > I agree that this simile describes the attainment of enlightenment as > preceded by samatha/jhana. However, I don't think it says that > enlightenment must necessarily be preceded by insight. ... That should have been: "However, I don't think it says that enlightenment must necessarily be preceded by *samatha/jhana*." Thanks. Jon #75223 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 11:27 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Asoka, Ch 1, no 6. nilovg Dear Mike, Op 15-aug-2007, om 23:11 heeft m. nease het volgende geschreven: > Why do we never hear of mindfulness of perception > (sa~n~nanusati?)? Ring any bells? --------- N: we usually have attaa-sa~n~naa and nicca-sa~n~naa. Through satipatthana there can be anattaa-sa~n~naa and anicca-sa~n~naa. We read in the mahaa-raahulovaadasutta: < aniccasa~n~na~nhi te, raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavayato For you who are cultivating the mental development that is the perception of impermanence, yo asmimaano so pahiiyissati. that which is the conceit of “I am” will be abandoned. The Co: < As to the expression, perception of impermanence, this refers to perception that arises together with contemplation of impermanence. Or, just insight; although this is not perception, it is called perception because it is under the heading of perception. As to the words “conceit of I am”, this is conceit of “I am” in materiality and so on.> Nina. #75224 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Aug 15, 2007 11:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Asoka, Ch 1, no 6. nilovg Dear Tep, Op 16-aug-2007, om 1:16 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > How did such a "solitary meditation" benefit the > Buddha who no longer had to develop siila, samaadhi or panna ? --------- N: This was phala-samaapatti, fruition attainment, which has as object nibbaana. The Buddha was naturally inclined to nibbaana, but because of his boundless metta and karu.na he spent much time with people, being intent on their welfare. Nina. #75225 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Aug 16, 2007 12:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness jonoabb Hi Swee Boon nidive wrote: > The Buddha groups the seven factors of awakening into 3 groups. > Group 1 - Mindfulness. > Group 2 - Investigation, Persistence, Rapture > Group 3 - Serenity, Concentration, Equanimity > > This is from SN 56.53 as cited in > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/wings/ > part2.html#part2-g > > The Buddha said development of mindfulness is beneficial all the > time, but the development of Group 2 should be carried out when the > mind is sluggish, and the development of Group 3 should be carried > out when the mind is restless. > > It is in my (modified) opinion that when the Buddha said in DN 22: > >> "Thus he lives contemplating the body in the body internally, or he >> lives contemplating the body in the body externally, or he lives >> contemplating the body in the body internally and externally. >> > > He refers to the development of the factor of mindfulness. > > >> He lives contemplating origination-things in the body, or he lives >> contemplating dissolution-things in the body, or he lives >> contemplating origination-and-dissolution-things in the body. >> > > He refers to the development of the factors of investigation, > persistence and rapture. > > >> Or indeed his mindfulness is established with the thought: 'The body >> exists,' to the extent necessary just for knowledge and remembrance, >> and he lives independent and clings to naught in the world. >> > > He refers to the development of the factors of serenity, > concentration and equanimity. > This is an interesting idea, but I'm not sure why you make this particular connection. Would you care to elaborate on the reasons for seeing it this way? > It is also in my opinion that Group 2 is collectively known as > INSIGHT and Group 3 is collectively known as SAMATHA in the Kimsuka > Sutta (and perhaps many others as well). > I'm not sure if you mean you've seen it explained this way, or if you're suggesting this as an idea for us to consider. > I think you were asking Howard in another post why jhanas are not > mentioned in DN 22. > > My opinion is that jhanas are actually mentioned indirectly by way of > 'Paragraph 3' (of DN 22) quoted above: > >> Or indeed his mindfulness is established with the thought: 'The body >> exists,' to the extent necessary just for knowledge and remembrance, >> and he lives independent and clings to naught in the world. >> > > This, I think describes the development of serenity, concentration > and equanimity. > Yes, I follow this. But as I've indicated, I'm not sure about your original suppositions. > The Buddha never actually left out the seven factors of enlightenment > (and neither 'Buddhist' jhanas) in DN 22. If you could "read in > between the lines", you would see how perfectly formulated (I would > say perfectly and mathematically formulated) this Dhamma actually is. > For me, the question would be whether this is how the sutta was interpreted in ancient times, or whether it is an interpretation that has only been postulated relatively recently. If the former, I'm interested; if the latter, I'm suspicious ;-)) > I think you were also asking Howard if the concentration of the seven > factors of awakening and the concentration of the NEP are actually > the same concentration. > > My answer would be a resounding YES. > > >From SN 56.52 cited in > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/wings/ > part2.html#part2-g > > the Buddha said that: > > [6] Any concentration accompanied by directed thought & evaluation is > concentration as a factor for Awakening. And any concentration > unaccompanied by directed thought & evaluation is also concentration > as a factor for Awakening. Thus this forms the definition of > 'concentration as a factor for Awakening,' and it is in this manner > that it is two. > > In short, the four Buddhist jhanas form the basis of concentration in > the seven factors of awakening as well as the NEP. > (The reference to SN 56:52 on the ATI website seems to be a typo. The sutta is at 46:52 in the CDB translation.) The situation is complicated by the fact that in the texts the bhojjhangas are sometimes treated as factors that *constitute* (i.e., are present at) enlightenment, and sometimes as factors that *lead to* enlightenment. See the discussion on this at Note 52, p. 1898 of CDB. This aspect is also touched on in BB's introductory notes beginning to the Bojjhangasamyutta beginning at p.1499 for those who are interested in getting the learned translator's personal perspective. So the passage quoted above may be saying just the same thing as the description of Right Concentration of the NEP. Thanks for sharing your thoughts on these aspects. Jon #75226 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Aug 16, 2007 12:37 am Subject: [dsg] Making Comparisons (... Re: Proper Training as a Co...) kenhowardau Hi James, -------------- J: > I find your view of history rather distorted. The commentaries are not like the Dead Sea Scrolls which KS dug up and revealed to the world. The commentaries were available and studied by the bhikkhusangha for centuries. --------------- As I understand the history of Buddhist countries Theravada has waxed and waned over the past two and a half thousand years. Sometimes Mahayana takes over, and sometimes Buddhism fades away altogether. In Sri Lanka the sangha died out on two or three occasions (I think) and had to be reinstated by monks from Thailand. -------------------------- J: > This is the same bhikkhusangha which teaches and advocates a deliberate process of mental purification, as it always has. -------------------------- As I said in my previous post, the commentaries that existed in 400 AD were very Abhidhamma oriented. That is, their explanations were based on the fact that there were only dhammas, and that vipassana was a fleeting moment of consciousness containing panna-cetasika. Wouldn't you conclude from that that the opposing (formal-practice) interpretation of vipassana was the later development? ------------------------------------- J: > The only thing KS did was to intepret the commentaries in a different way- in a way which views mental purification as a passive process rather than an active process. ------------------------------------- Nonsense! There is nothing passive about panna. The problem here is that you will not (or cannot) understand the paramattha-dhamma explanation. ------------------------- J: > It is appealing to think that KS discovered some sort of "secret", but that isn't the case at all. Again, your thinking bends toward the grandiose and fanatical rather than the realistic. ------------------------- KS discovered that Buddhism was not just another religion. (It contained an explanation of reality profoundly different from any other.) Somehow, over the course of millennia, it had become just that. A closer look at the ancient texts, however, reveals that the Dhamma has always been the way KS - and the ancient commentaries - understands it to be. Ken H #75227 From: "Andrew" Date: Thu Aug 16, 2007 12:36 am Subject: Re: not hard to accept. corvus121 Dear Nina Thank you very much for your reply. > N: Reflection, here in Pali: cinta. Cinteti is thinking of an object. > The English term thinking is used, or reflection, or investigation, > there are many synomyms for pa~n~naa to show different aspects. > These terms are not the same as what we mean by them in conventional > language. But we need not be confused if we understand that pa~n~naa > is a cetasika accompanying citta, that performs its function just for > a moment. I see in Nyanatiloka's dictionary "cinta-maya-panna" defined as "wisdom (or knowledge) based on thinking" s. panna. Is there any significance to his distinguishing wisdom and knowledge? His dictionary defines knowledge as "compare panna, nana, vijja, vipassana, abhinna." > A: The last quote above seems to suggest that reflection is citta with > vicara + vitakka and with anicca as object? So it couldn't be > satipatthana (as anicca isn't a dhamma). > ------- > N: The citta that develops the eightfold Path is accompanied by > pa~n~naa and also right thinking, and other factors (not all eight). > Pa~n~naa investigates the true nature of nama and rupa and when it is > developed it realizes the impermanence, the arising and falling away > of a nama or rupa. Anicca is always anicca of a nama or rupa. Thus, > this refers to satipatthana. Oh, I see now - the object of the citta is the anicca aspect of a nama or rupa. It is interesting that this very high form of panna knows only one aspect of a dhamma in the moment (or do we say that that knowledge is "predominant"?). I believe arahants can be distinguished by which aspect was realised (I am referring to the vimokkhas here). Best wishes Andrew #75228 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 16, 2007 1:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Making Comparisons (... Re: Proper Training as a Co...) nilovg Dear Ken H, Op 16-aug-2007, om 9:37 heeft kenhowardau het volgende geschreven: > In > Sri Lanka the sangha died out on two or three occasions (I think) and > had to be reinstated by monks from Thailand. -------- N: I heard that twice a group of monks from Thailand went over to Sri Lanka to be reordained, since in Sri Lanka the Sangha had been preserved. I read about this in the Siam Society Journal. The late Phra Dhammadharo also was reordained in Sri Lanka. Since the pronunciation of Pali in Thailand was not correct, ordination in Thailand was not valid. The rules are very precise as to the ordination rituals. Nina. #75229 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 16, 2007 1:41 am Subject: not hard to accept. nilovg Dear Andrew, ---------- I see in Nyanatiloka's dictionary "cinta-maya-panna" defined as "wisdom (or knowledge) based on thinking" s. panna. Is there any significance to his distinguishing wisdom and knowledge? His dictionary defines knowledge as "compare panna, nana, vijja, vipassana, abhinna." -------- N: Sometimes pa~n~naa is translated as wisdom, sometimes as knowledge. Compare: insight knowledge, vipassanaa ~naa.na. It has nothing to do with knowledge as used in conventional language. Evenso thinking is not thinking of stories. Paramattha dhammas are the object of pa~n~naa. -------- A: the object of the citta is the anicca aspect of a nama or rupa. It is interesting that this very high form of panna knows only one aspect of a dhamma in the moment (or do we say that that knowledge is "predominant"?). I believe arahants can be distinguished by which aspect was realised (I am referring to the vimokkhas here). -------- N: Only one aspect: each citta can have only one object, and thus pa~n~naa arising with the citta can understand a nama or rupa as anicca, as dukkha or as anattaa. The Survey gives details: Nina. #75230 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 16, 2007 1:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness (old post of Suan) nilovg Dear Jon, Swee Boon, and all, I found on Rob's study forum an interesting post touching on this subject. Op 16-aug-2007, om 8:16 heeft Jonothan Abbott het volgende geschreven: > "However, I don't think it says that enlightenment must necessarily be > preceded by *samatha/jhana*." > > Thanks. > Jon ----------- Suan's old post: (end quote) Nina. #75231 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Aug 16, 2007 2:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Howard As A Good Friend Of Theravada -- Re: Proper Training as a Co... sarahprocter... Hi Howard, --- upasaka@... wrote: > >N: the commentaries were not available in Thai, only the Co to the > > Abhidhammattha Sangaha, she studied with Acharn Naeb. > ==================== > That's interesting! As I recall, Ajahn Naeb was a famous > meditation > teacher. I think she emphasized motionless sitting and attending to the > bodily > pain that results and the aversive reactions to that. .... S: Yes, that sounds about right. I believe, she had great (theoretical) knowledge of the Abhidhamma, but like many others, saw the practice of the teachers as something quite separate from the Abhidhamma teachings. I think the Abhidhamma theory and practice must concur, otherwise all the detail is useless. I think you'd agree with this? Incidentally, I went to visit A.Naeb with K.Sujin a couple of times, but she was dying and barely conscious as I vaguely recall. Metta, Sarah p.s I see you left your name and the subject heading, so I'm following your example:). ======= #75232 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 16, 2007 2:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Howard As A Good Friend Of Theravada -- Re: Proper Training as a Co... nilovg Dear Sarah, Howard, Op 16-aug-2007, om 11:31 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > I believe, she had great (theoretical) > knowledge of the Abhidhamma, but like many others, saw the practice > of the > teachers as something quite separate from the Abhidhamma teachings. > I think the Abhidhamma theory and practice must concur, otherwise > all the > detail is useless. ------- N: Kh Sujin let me read a book by her. She speaks of 'sitting ruupa', but there is no sitting ruupa in the list of twentyeight ruupas of the Abhidhamma. It makes people think of a whole of the body instead of understanding that there are many different ruupas that do not last. Rob K has an article on his study forum based on her teachings. Nina. #75233 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Aug 16, 2007 3:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] re: not hard to accept. sarahprocter... Dear Nina, Scott & Andrew, I'm following your discussions with interest. --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Scott: Paccavekkhana is not just thinking, as you note. I see where > > it refers to a 'reviewing' or a going over something a second > time. I > > see how 'reflection' is given as one of the functions of pa~n~na > > (Dhammasa"ngani). <...> > Reviewing or Paccavekkhana that Scott uses as an example is pa~n~naa > arising after the lokuttara cittas that have fallen away. ... S: I wrote before to Scott (#73715) that in the context of another sutta, I didn't believe paccavekkhana was always referring to the reviewing consciousness (paccavekkhana nana) following lokuttara cittas and that it seemed to be much more of a conceptual considering. There is also paccavekkha.na suddhi referring to the "wise consideration in using the 4 requisites allowed in a monk..." (Nyantiloka). Also as referring to the development of insight into the ti-lakkhana in contexts as in the Therii extracts. So in different contexts it has a different meaning. I raised just this point with K.Sujin and referred to my comments to Scott in this regard. She confirmed this and reminded us not to forget the ordinary, conventional meanings of terms used too at the time. The same with terms like cinta-maya-panna and suta-maya-panna. Sometimes in suttas they can have a more general, ordinary meaning. ... > N: It depends on the context. See above. > Rahula had to reflect before speech or action. Here is implied that > he should not be forgetful of dhammas. When there is the committing > of a bad deed there are always many akusala cittas before and also > after this deed is committed. ... S: I think the point we need to remember is that whether (by conditions) there is wise or unwise reflection, kusala or akusala cittas before and after deeds (usually akusala as you say!), awareness and understanding can develop to know such dhammas as they are - elements, not belonging to a self in any way. **** A small incident - It's hot and humid at nights back in Hong Kong and we were still a little jet-lagged. I was lying awake thinking about my brother who has just had quite a serious accident, some other domestic problems, several visitors in town to assist and so on and on. I was rather agitated, so I got up. Jon woke too and joined me. This was all very unusual for us, so I asked him to give me some dhamma reminders. He quietly talked about how it's just thinking, thinking about nonsense and the same for all of us, on and on unless we become anagamis and arahats. We're attached to our habitual ways of thinking with so little detachment and so much expectation. We forget all the time that the problems are not the situations or other people around us. It seems like all there is at such times is the thinking, but in fact there are other realities arising and experiencing other objects through the senses all the time too. Even with our eyes closed, there is seeing and of course hearing and other sense-door experiencing, but at such times, we're lost in the world of 'me' and 'my concerns', clinging to self again. He just spoke quietly for a few minutes and then we went back to bed and I slept peacefully until the morning (by conditions!!). So, kusala and akusala reflections during the night, but sati and panna can arise at any time to know any dhamma at all as it is. If we wait for the kusala, peaceful reflections, again there's no detachment, no understanding of dhammas as elements. No rules at all in terms of objects for the development of panna. Metta, Sarah ======== #75234 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Aug 16, 2007 3:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Memory like a Sieve . . . [Found, not Lost] sarahprocter... Hi Colette, --- colette wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > Ah, now I see, so you're our little red book representative here. lol ... S: Well, we live in China if that counts.... .... > > This is how I read your msg, post, you are addressing Geoff and > Zorro, I was mentioned mearly as a coincidence that raised some > thoughts in your mind. ... S: I was addressing Geoff and Zorro in order to welcome them here. You're not a new member, Colette! ... > To end this here, does Jonathon Abott and yourself have similar Hong > Kong calling cards? The stories I recall from my days in San Diego > (USN) concerning Hong Kong although I never made that port. Every > West Pack Sailor craves to go to Hong Kong: "You can buy or sell > ANYTHING IN HONG KONG" kindof like the Khyber Pass except that's only > weapons. ... S: You can probably still buy or sell anything, but we definitely don't see many American sailors these days. Not so easy for the navy to get permission to enter the waters. I rather miss all those navy boats sailing into the harbour. Let's get back to namas and rupas, Colette! What are the realities at this moment as you read now? All these stories and dreams won't bring us closer to the truths, will they? How are your Theravada studies going? Thx for your friendly comments. Metta, Sarah ======== #75235 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Aug 16, 2007 3:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Howard As A Good Friend Of Theravada -- Re: Proper Training as a Contemplative sarahprocter... Hi Ken H (James & Howard),((Sukin & Matt), --- kenhowardau wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > I am familiar with the idea of "not comparing" and I have parroted it > a few times on DSG. Even so, I wonder if you would explain what we > mean by it.:-) ... S: ;-)) I think that when there's an idea of our own importance, a 'puffing-up', then we can be sure maana (conceit) is involved. However, I also think it's incredibly common and ordinary and can be far more subtle than we have any idea about. It doesn't make any difference whether the 'facts' are true or not. For example, when we are thinking about how someone is a better tennis player (to use your example)than we are, there's bound to be an idea of self-importance, regardless. Even when we look at other surf-boards and think about how they're too big, the wrong colour, not shaped properly and so on, the puffing-up is there. Of course, it's never a matter of determining situations and only panna can really understand any dhammas for what they are when they appear. ... > It is good commonsense advice in conventional situations, where it > means we should just get on with doing our best. But does it have a > special significance when it applies to the Dhamma? .... S: It's like when we read or hear 'Don't cling' or 'Develop understanding' or 'Don't have regrets' - just reminders to see akusala for what it is and to develop understanding. ... > Sorry for being a bit dense. When you tell me what it is I'm going to > say, 'Oh yes, I knew that!" :-) ... S: ;-) Of course I'm not saying anything new and as James and you appreciated, my comments in support of his were in part just a little fun in a last 'fling'. ... > ---------------- > S: :-) As long as everyone's clear that knowing it was sampaticchana > which followed is no indication of any real Dhamma/Abhidhamma > understanding!! > I'm rather on James's side here...does sound like rather a lot of > comparing and ME! lol! > ---------------- > > At least now I know whose side you're on! :-) ... S: ;-) I also wanted to point out that the fact that you may get your sampaticchanas mixed up is not any indication of a lack of Abhidhamma understanding as I see it. So I'm on both sides ;-) [See my comments to Howard about those who study Abhidhamma theory and know it extremely well, but see the practice as something else altogether, as direct by a self. This is not Abhidhamma understanding in my book.] ... --------------------------- > <. . .> > S: More like it....and had Angulimala ever heard of sampaticchana? > ---------------------------- > > No, not in that lifetime. ... S: Interestingly, I watched part of a Thai-made movie on Angulimala's life on a Thai flight. It was quite a sympathetic portrayal of the hold of wrong views and their power when followed to extremes in spite of hearing aspects of the Buddha's teachings from others along the way. I don't know how accurate it was... Has anyone else seen it? Sukin? Matt? .... > S: What is progress after all? What is laziness? All > sounds oh so conventional for you, Ken H! Just as well you've got > James to remind you of paramattha dhammas here....more lol! > ---------------------- > > Shush! This is not good for my image! :-) > > As I see it, we weren't talking about paramattha dhammas; we were > talking about theoretical knowledge of the Abhidhamma. Mine is not > good . . . compared with certain other people here. What's wrong with > saying that? ... S: 'It's all good' as we kept hearing in Australia, along with 'awesome' everything.... It comes down to the cittas involved and only your panna can know. Again, I think the sense of self-importance or puffing up is very common, even at times of so-called modesty....No big deal, panna can just understand, that's all. As Howard said, it depends on the underlying attitude. Don't take my comments too seriously - of course I wouldn't intentionally dent your image here;-)) Lots of maana around for a long time for sure... Metta & Maana, Sarah ======== #75236 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Aug 16, 2007 4:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: satipatthana as island of refuge sarahprocter... Hi Howard & Swee Boon, --- upasaka@... wrote: > > Contemplation of rupas is limited to the rupas of the body in the > > Buddha's teachings. > > ------------------------------------- > Howard: > Besides body-door rupas, there are eye-door, ear-door, nose-door, > and > tongue-door rupas. Certainly the body-door rupas are emphasized, but are > you > claiming that attending to the body-door rupas is all that he > countenanced? > Even when attending to the body, what about functions mentioned of > eating (and > savoring), defecating, urinating, and speaking mentioned by the Buddha? > Is one > not to be mindful of the tastes, odors, sights, and sounds involved, > noting > their impersonality, conditionality, impermanence, and > unsatisfactoriness? With > regard to repulsiveness of body and the cemetary contemplations, are > sights to > be ignored? In contemplating feeling, is one to pay no attention to the > associated consciouesness (eye, ear, nose, tongue, or body)? ... S: Swee Boon, I don't think this is Howard's special or strange understanding. I think it's important to appreciate that rupas are being experienced through all the senses all the time. The Buddha is always stressing the development of understanding of these, usually starting with visible object. Without such visible objects, sounds and so on, there wouldn't be all the stories and proliferations about them. It's very important to understand them for what they are. I find it strange when people emphasise bodily sensations or mental states, but completely ignore seeing, visible objects and other dhammas appearing now. What do you think? I know there was at least one post to me waiting for a response - I'm a bit disorganised at the moment, but will get back to it when I find it. Metta, Sarah ========== #75237 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Aug 16, 2007 12:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Howard As A Good Friend Of Theravada -- Re: Proper Training as a Co... upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 8/16/07 5:46:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > --- upasaka@... wrote: > >>N: the commentaries were not available in Thai, only the Co to the > >>Abhidhammattha Sangaha, she studied with Acharn Naeb. > >==================== > > That's interesting! As I recall, Ajahn Naeb was a famous > >meditation > >teacher. I think she emphasized motionless sitting and attending to the > >bodily > >pain that results and the aversive reactions to that. > .... > S: Yes, that sounds about right. I believe, she had great (theoretical) > knowledge of the Abhidhamma, but like many others, saw the practice of the > teachers as something quite separate from the Abhidhamma teachings. > I think the Abhidhamma theory and practice must concur, otherwise all the > detail is useless. I think you'd agree with this? ---------------------------------------------- Howard: I think that theory guides the practice as a rudder guides the ship. --------------------------------------------- > > Incidentally, I went to visit A.Naeb with K.Sujin a couple of times, but > she was dying and barely conscious as I vaguely recall. > > Metta, > > Sarah > p.s I see you left your name and the subject heading, so I'm following > your example:). -------------------------------------- Howard: I left it, because I'm not going to start changing all posts that still have that remnant. (Hardly worth the effort! LOLOL!) Thanks for mentioning it, Sarah. :-) ===================== With metta, Howard #75238 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Aug 16, 2007 4:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness jonoabb Hi Swee Boon nidive wrote: > Hi Jon, > ... > > It has occurred to me that any sutta that mentions 'insight' and > 'samatha' together in the same sentence can be interpreted as > "enlightenment with jhana as basis". > That's possible, but I wouldn't know if it's the case or not. I think the safest thing is to be guided by the commentary, if available. > Isn't that a perfect formula? > Enlightenment with jhana as basis is only one of the ways described in the texts. A person cannot know in advance exactly how enlightenment will be attained in his/her own case (with rare exceptions, of course). All one can do is to develop insight and other kusala. In my view, there's no need to set a 'target' of one kind of enlightenment or another. > The directions (north, south, east, west) represent the four frames > of reference. > > As in MN 118, four frames of reference when developed & pursued > brings the seven factors of awakening (summarized as insight & > samatha in Kimsuka) to their culmination. The seven factors of > awakening when developed & pursued brings clear knowing & release to > their culmination. > > So you are right it refers to enlightenment, but enlightenment can > always be traced back to the four frames of reference. The four > frames of reference are the basis for enlightenment. > I agree that the four frames of reference are the basis for insight development and hence enlightenment. As regards the 4 directions mentioned in the simile, since I'm not sure of the answer I don't think I can say anything further on that particular point. Jon #75239 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Aug 16, 2007 4:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Howard As A Good Friend Of Theravada -- Re: Proper Training as a Co... sarahprocter... Dear Nina, --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > N: Kh Sujin let me read a book by her. She speaks of 'sitting ruupa', > but there is no sitting ruupa in the list of twentyeight ruupas of > the Abhidhamma. ... S: I know, we've also read her comments. In spite of her extensive Abhidhamma studies, she adds her own ideas. It's very common. Views about practice are always very strong. Also, no need to get upset when people refer to 'Sujinese' or any other term. People don't necessarily use them in any derogatory sense or if they do, it may be just when temporarily exasperated. Better to just mind our own cittas and let it go! Metta, Sarah p.s Jon also recalls the weekly gatherings at Wat Bovorn to translate the commentaries, always with a bhikkhu present, K.Kulin etc as you said. They used to be in the same room where the English discussions took place too. A really tremendous achievement, especially when we recall how there were no computers, not even electric type-writers in those days. The same goes for the early PTS and other translations. Btw, we haven't seen Prof Somporn for quite some time now. I know he's very elderly now. Is he still well? Such a kind and fine man, always welcoming us all. ============= #75240 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Aug 16, 2007 4:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness jonoabb Hi Swee Boon nidive wrote: > Hi Jon again, > > >>> "The swift pair of messengers [= samatha and insight], delivering >>> their accurate report [= nibbana] to the commander of the fortress >>> [= consciousness], would then go back by the route by which they >>> had come [= the Noble Eightfold Path]." >>> >>> This seems to refer to enlightenment, rather than the four frames >>> of reference, wouldn't you say? >>> >> The directions (north, south, east, west) represent the four frames >> of reference. >> > > If the directions represent the four levels of awakening, then the > passage above would imply that there are no differences among the > four levels. I am sure the Buddha would not make such a gaffe. > Not sure I see it the way you do, but I've nothing further to add for the time being. > The above passage refers to the enlightenment of an arahant. > Nice talking to you. Jon #75241 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Aug 16, 2007 5:03 am Subject: Re: not hard to accept. scottduncan2 Dear Nina, Thanks for the reply. When the Buddha said the following: "...Ta.m kimma~n~nasi raahula kimatthiyo aadaasoti. Paccavekkhanattho bhanteti..." Who was Raahula? There is one Raahula who wrote (in the Theragaathaa): 4. 1. 8 Raahulattheragaathaa. 295. Ubhayeneva sampanno raahulabhaddo'ti ma.m viduu Ya~ncamhi putto buddhassa ya.m ca dhammesu cakkhumaa. 296. Ya.m ca aasavaa khii.naa ya.m natthi punabbhavo Arahaa dakkhi.neyyomhi tevijjo amataddaso. 297. Kaamandhaa jaalapacchannaa ta.nhaachadanachaaditaa Pamattabandhunaa baddhaa macchaava kuminaamukhe. 298. Ta.m kaama.m ahamujjhatvaa chetvaa maarassa bandhana.m Samuula.m ta.nhamabbuyha siitibhuutosmi nibbuto'ti. Ittha.m suda.m aayasmaa raahulo thero gaathaayo abhaasitthaa'ti. If this is the same Raahula, then I think the Buddha's exhortation to 'reflect' (paccavekkhana) would make sense since Raahula was, at least at the time the above was composed, an Arahat (if I'm understanding the above). This would have then been a suggestion to review the attainment, wouldn't it? Not to be read, as in the English, as a general suggestion to reflect on things before and after doing them. As you say: "Reviewing or Paccavekkhana...is pa~n~naa arising after the lokuttara cittas that have fallen away. Pa~n~naa realizes the nature of those cittas, it realizes the defilements that were eradicated, it realizes nibbaana. This happens very quickly, from moment to moment. It is not thinking about something as we use the word thinking in conventional language." I'll be checking about 'mundane' paccavekkhana, though. Sincerely, Scott. #75242 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Aug 16, 2007 5:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] re: not hard to accept. scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, (Nina and Andrew), Thanks for the reply: Sarah: "...I didn't believe paccavekkhana was always referring to the reviewing consciousness (paccavekkhana nana) following lokuttara cittas and that it seemed to be much more of a conceptual considering...Also as referring to the development of insight into the ti-lakkhana in contexts as in the Therii extracts. So in different contexts it has a different meaning." Scott: See the post I wrote to Nina regarding Raahula. This is still what I'm trying to sort out: Is there mundane paccavekkhana? You suggest that there is. Sammohavinodanii 642: "...knowledge is understanding. It (i.e understanding) makes known and plain the four truths with each meaning and each cause... Reflection is understanding. It reflects upon that quality. But ignorance when it arises does not allow it to reflect, thus it is non-reflection (appaccavekkhana). 'It has nothing that is clarified, and it is itself action done without reflecting' is non-clarification (appaccakkha-kamma)." Sammohavinodanii 1310,1320" "Furthermore, seven things lead to the arising of the investigation-of-states enlightenment factor: (1) asking questions, (2) the act of cleansing the basis, (3) imparting of evenness to the five faculties, (4) avoidance of persons of no understanding, (5) cultivation of persons with understanding, (6) reviewing the field for the excercise of profound knowledge, (7) being resolved thereon. "(6) 'Reviewing the field for the exercise of profound knowledge' means reviewing in various ways by means of profound understanding which occurs in respect of the profound aggregates, etc." Scott: What is your take on the above? And thank you for: Sarah: "A small incident...kusala and akusala reflections during the night, but sati and panna can arise at any time to know any dhamma at all as it is. If we wait for the kusala, peaceful reflections, again there's no detachment, no understanding of dhammas as elements. No rules at all in terms of objects for the development of panna." Scott: In the midst of thinking and clinging to emotion and stories, as you note, you suggest that satipa.t.thaana can arise. Is there reveiwing (paccavekkhana) in the mix, as far as your experience went? Sincerely, Scott. #75243 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 16, 2007 5:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Howard As A Good Friend Of Theravada -- Re: Proper Training as a Co... nilovg Dear Sarah, Op 16-aug-2007, om 13:19 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > Btw, we haven't seen Prof > Somporn for quite some time now. I know he's very elderly now. Is > he still > well? Such a kind and fine man, always welcoming us all. ------- N: He is sometimes present on Sundays at the Thai sessions, but he has trouble hearing, using a hearing aid. He also joins in the luncheons at Kh Duangduan's house. Nina. #75244 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Thu Aug 16, 2007 5:50 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (64) nichiconn Dear Friends, 11. Dvaadasakanipaato 1. Uppalava.n.naatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa part 19 On verse: 224. "ubho maataa ca dhiitaa ca, maya.m aasu.m sapattiyo; tassaa me ahu sa.mvego, abbhuto lomaha.msano. 224. The two of us, mother and daughter, were co-wives. I experienced a profound stirring, amazing, hair-raising. Txt: Tattha ubho maataa ca dhiitaa ca, maya.m aasu.m sapattiyoti maataa ca dhiitaa caati ubho maya.m a~n~nama~n~na.m sapattiyo ahumha. Saavatthiya.m kira a~n~natarassa vaa.nijassa bhariyaaya paccuusavelaaya.m kucchiya.m gabbho sa.n.thaasi, saa ta.m na a~n~naasi. Vaa.nijo vibhaataaya rattiyaa saka.tesu bha.n.da.m aaropetvaa raajagaha.m uddissa gato. Tassaa gacchante kaale gabbho va.d.dhetvaa paripaaka.m agamaasi. Atha na.m sassu evamaaha- "mama putto cirappavuttho tva~nca gabbhinii, paapaka.m tayaa katan"ti. Saa "tava puttato a~n~na.m purisa.m na jaanaamii"ti aaha. Pruitt: 224. There, the two of us, mother and daughter (ubho maataa ca dhiitaa ca maya.m) were co-wives means: mother and daughter, both of us (maataa ca dhiitaa caa ti ubho maya.m) we were co-wives to each other.* It is said that an embryo was established at dawn in the womb of the wife of a certain merchant in Saavatthi, but she did not know it. At dawn, the merchant put his goods in a cart and set off in the direction of Raajagaha. As time went by, the embryo grew and reached maturity. Then her mother-in-law said to her, "My son has been away from home for a very long time, and you are pregnant. You have done something wicked." She said, "I have known no man but your son." *For "amazing," see the commentary below on v. 316, p.294. {Sundari, Sisters 69: }. Ta.m sutvaapi sassu asaddahantii ta.m gharato nikka.d.dhi. Saa saamika.m gavesantii anukkamena raajagaha.m sampattaa. Taavadeva cassaa kammajavaatesu calantesu maggasamiipe a~n~natara.m saala.m pavi.t.thaaya gabbhavu.t.thaana.m ahosi. Saa suva.n.nabimbasadisa.m putta.m vijaayitvaa anaathasaalaaya.m sayaapetvaa udakakiccattha.m bahi nikkhantaa. Atha~n~nataro aputtako satthavaaho tena maggena gacchanto "assaamikaaya daarako, mama putto bhavissatii"ti ta.m dhaatiyaa hatthe adaasi. When she heard that, the mother-in-law, who did not believe her, threw her out of the house. She went in search of her husband, and in due course, she arrived in Raajagaha. Then as soon as her labour pains began to stir, she entered a certain hall close to the road and gave birth. Sha gave birth to a son who resembled a golden bimba fruit, and laying him down in the rest house, whe went outside for the obligatory [ritual] ablution. Then a certain caravan leader who had no son, came along the road, and he said, "This boy had been abandoned. He will be my son." ===stay tuned, connie #75245 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 16, 2007 6:46 am Subject: Asoka, Ch 1, no 7. nilovg Dear friends, The Buddha taught for forty-five years and when he was eighty he passed finally away. In Kusinåra we visited the place of his Parinibbåna. A temple with a recumbent Buddha-image marks this place. When the Buddha was passing away he was lying in the “lion’s posture”. We read in the “Kindred Sayings” (IV, Salåyatana-vagga, Fourth Fifty, Ch IV, § 202) that when the Buddha was resting he did so in the lion’s posture, lying on his right side, “putting one foot on the other, collected and composed, with his mind set on rising up again”. We paid respect near the Buddha image in the temple and we also went around the Stupa which has been erected near the temple and paid respect by chanting and by talking about nåma, mental phenomena, and rúpa, physical phenomena, which are non-self. We read in the “Mahå-Parinibbåna Sutta” (Dialogues of the Buddha, Dígha Nikåya, II, 16) about the last days of the Buddha. His last meal was offered to him by Cunda, the metalworker. The “Súkara- maddava” (truffles or pork meat) caused the Buddha deadly pains. Inspite of this the Buddha wanted to go to Kusinåra. The Buddha said to Ånanda that he would come to his Parinibbåna (final passing away) during the last watch of the night, in the Mallas’ Såla-grove, near Kusinåra, in between two Såla trees. Until his last moments the Buddha thought of the wellbeing of others. He said that Cunda’s remorse about the last meal which caused deadly pains should be dispelled, explaining to him that there are two offerings which are of equal fruition, exceeding in excellence the fruition of any other offerings of food: the offering of food taken by the Buddha before his enlightenment and the offering of food taken by the Buddha before his Parinibbåna. He said: “By his deed has the venerable Cunda accumulated that which makes for long life, beauty, wellbeing, glory, heavenly rebirth, and sovereignty!” [1] When Ånanda was weeping because the Buddha was going to pass away while he, Ånanda, was still a “learner” (sekha, an ariyan who has not attained to the stage of arahatship) the Buddha called him and explained to him that it is in the nature of things near and dear to us that we must suffer separation from them. He said that Ånanda should put forth energy and that he would be freed from defilements. He then praised Ånanda. Subhadda, a wandering ascetic, visited the Buddha who explained that in other teachings there is no noble Eightfold Path and no true ascetics of the first, second, third or fourth degree, save in the Buddha’s teaching. Subhadda took his refuge in the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha and received ordination. The Buddha’s last words were: “Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: transient are all the elements of being! Strive with earnestness!” After the Buddha attained the different stages of rúpa-jhåna and arúpa-jhåna he entered the state of the Cessation of Perception and Feeling. After he had emerged from that stage he entered the highest stage of arúpa-jhåna and then attained in reverse order the other stages of arúpa-jhåna and of rúpa- jhåna. Then he entered again the four stages of rúpa-jhåna from the first up to the highest and after that he passed finally away. Near Kusinåra a stupa commemorates the place of the Buddha’s cremation. We had visited this stupa in the evening and had held a Dhamma discussion there until after dark. The next day we visited this place again and recited from the Mahå-Parinibbåna Sutta the passages concerning the cremation of the Buddha and the partition of his relics. The relics were divided into eight portions and given to the King of Magadha, the Licchavis of Vesålí and others. Stupas were erected over the relics and moreover, a ninth stupa was erected for the urn and a tenth for the ashes. --------- 1. I am using the translation of the Buddhist Publication Society, Wheel 67-69, Kandy, Sri Lanka. ******* Nina. #75246 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 16, 2007 6:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: not hard to accept. nilovg Dear Scott, Op 16-aug-2007, om 14:03 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: > If this is the same Raahula, then I think the Buddha's exhortation to > 'reflect' (paccavekkhana) would make sense since Raahula was, at least > at the time the above was composed, an Arahat (if I'm understanding > the above). This would have then been a suggestion to review the > attainment, wouldn't it? Not to be read, as in the English, as a > general suggestion to reflect on things before and after doing them. ------ N: As Sarah said, different meanings in different contexts, and also: it depends on the citta that reviews. The cittas may be different. The monks should review the requisites, at the time of receiving them or afterwards. How would he review? If he is developing satipatthana, he is also aware of this reviewing as non-self. He should. He should see the food he received as medicine for the body, or as elements. Many ways of reflecting and reviewing, of yoniso manaasikaara but no self. This is very difficult, don't you think? Self slips in all the time. As to Rahula, when he was told not to lie even for fun he was not an arahat. I looked up the Theragatha you refer to when he became an arahat. 'Reflecting on his victory', uttering his a~n~naa: yes, but no self who reflects or utters his a~n~naa. No conceit either. We can think wisely, with kusala citta and in between there can also be sati sampaja~n~na that realizes that this reflection is nama, no self. Mostly we are pleased when reflecting on dhamma, it is still self that reflects wisely, Kh Sujin would say. She reminds: self studies, self considers. Does this not solve the dilemma? It all depends on the citta at a given moment. After the lokuttara citta is only one context as Sarah discussed with Kh Sujin, and there are more contexts where reflection is used. Nina. #75247 From: "nidive" Date: Thu Aug 16, 2007 8:57 am Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge nidive Hi Sarah (& Howard), > S: Swee Boon, I don't think this is Howard's special or strange > understanding. I think it's important to appreciate that rupas are > being experienced through all the senses all the time. The Buddha > is always stressing the development of understanding of these, > usually starting with visible object. > > Without such visible objects, sounds and so on, there wouldn't be > all the stories and proliferations about them. It's very important > to understand them for what they are. I find it strange when > people emphasise bodily sensations or mental states, but completely > ignore seeing, visible objects and other dhammas appearing now. I said before to Howard that contemplation on the six sense bases is contemplation on mental qualities but he appears to be confused. It's actually from DN 22 under Mental Qualities. There, it is said the fetters that arises in dependence on the internal & external sense media should be contemplated. Since it is the fetter that should be abandoned, does it matter whether what one sees, hears, smells, tastes, touches and thinks are paramattha dhammas or concepts? To me, whether paramattha dhammas or concepts, they are all impermanent. The fault lies not in the external sense media, for if it were, there would be no arahants! I also said to Howard that contemplation on rupas is limited to rupas of the body. By this, I do not mean body-door rupas. I mean the rupas that make up our physical bodies as opposed to the rupas that make up a river. Since Howard does not endorse the view of "external rupas", I find our discussion out of tangent, which is why I discontinued. In DN 22, the first frame of reference refers to the contemplation of rupas that make up our physical bodies. No where else in DN 22 does the Buddha mention the contemplation of rupas of external objects such as a river. In SN 22.79 by Thanissaro: -------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.079.than.html § 17. "And why do you call it 'form' (rupa)? Because it is afflicted (ruppati), thus it is called 'form.' Afflicted with what? With cold & heat & hunger & thirst, with the touch of flies, mosquitoes, wind, sun, & reptiles. Because it is afflicted, it is called form. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't you find it interesting that 'rupa' is a play on 'ruppati'? Now, a river is not said to be 'afflicted' according to the above criteria of hunger & thirst in particular. But your physical body and my physical body are! Swee Boon #75248 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Aug 16, 2007 7:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: satipatthana as island of refuge upasaka_howard Hi, Swee Boon (and Sarah) - In a message dated 8/16/07 11:58:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time, nidive@... writes: > Hi Sarah (& Howard), > > >S: Swee Boon, I don't think this is Howard's special or strange > >understanding. I think it's important to appreciate that rupas are > >being experienced through all the senses all the time. The Buddha > >is always stressing the development of understanding of these, > >usually starting with visible object. > > > >Without such visible objects, sounds and so on, there wouldn't be > >all the stories and proliferations about them. It's very important > >to understand them for what they are. I find it strange when > >people emphasise bodily sensations or mental states, but completely > >ignore seeing, visible objects and other dhammas appearing now. > > I said before to Howard that contemplation on the six sense bases is > contemplation on mental qualities but he appears to be confused. --------------------------------------------------- Howard: What I have from Nyanatiloka is the following: > The 12 'bases' or 'sources' on which depend the mental processes, consist > of five physical sense-organs and consciousness, being the six personal ( > ajjhattika) bases; and the six objects, the so-called external (bahira) bases > > Now, of the 6 personal bases, and also of the 6 external bases, five are rupic. So, I did not understand why "contemplation on the six sense bases is contemplation on mental qualities." ------------------------------------------------ > > It's actually from DN 22 under Mental Qualities. > > There, it is said the fetters that arises in dependence on the > internal &external sense media should be contemplated. > > Since it is the fetter that should be abandoned, does it matter > whether what one sees, hears, smells, tastes, touches and thinks are > paramattha dhammas or concepts? To me, whether paramattha dhammas or > concepts, they are all impermanent. -------------------------------------------- Howard: As I see it, concepts are actually nothing at all. Only the dhammas upon which conceptualizing works are phenomena that arise and cease. When there are certain dhammas experienced, thinking projects "tree". When other dhammas are experienced, thinking projects "mountain". Everyone, for example, eventually comes to see clearly that all people die, but that kind of seeing does not liberate. However, seeing directly that every actual phenomenon lasts for no time at all, either ceasing "itself" or ceasing "as a thing-in-relation" due to other related phenomena arising and ceasing, one comes to know with an immediacy the radical impermanence and ungraspability of the all, and that does liberate. ---------------------------------------------- > > The fault lies not in the external sense media, for if it were, there > would be no arahants! > > I also said to Howard that contemplation on rupas is limited to rupas > of the body. By this, I do not mean body-door rupas. > > I mean the rupas that make up our physical bodies as opposed to the > rupas that make up a river. > > Since Howard does not endorse the view of "external rupas", I find > our discussion out of tangent, which is why I discontinued. --------------------------------------------- Howard: The rupas we grasp at or push away are the rupas that are experienced. We agree on that. This issue of phenomenalism versus objectivism is thus irrelevant. We agree that it is only personal experiential phenomena we can contemplate. The "river sounds" I may cling to are Howard-ear-door sounds. ---------------------------------------------- > > In DN 22, the first frame of reference refers to the contemplation of > rupas that make up our physical bodies. > > No where else in DN 22 does the Buddha mention the contemplation of > rupas of external objects such as a river. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Body-door sensations are dealt with directly in the 1st "frame", but other sense-door sensations indirectly. Other senses are also involved indirectly in the other frames. But, sure, all this pertains to what is actually sensed. It doesn't matter what the conventional source is. When walking in the river shallows, there are sensed various rupas including the 4 great elements and sights and sounds and odors. What is sensed and what is craved/disliked/ignored does not belong to "the river", but are sense-door experiences. In fact, oppositely, "the river" is based on them. -------------------------------------------------- > > In SN 22.79 by Thanissaro: > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.079.than.html > > § 17. "And why do you call it 'form' (rupa)? Because it is afflicted > (ruppati), thus it is called 'form.' Afflicted with what? With cold & > heat &hunger &thirst, with the touch of flies, mosquitoes, wind, > sun, &reptiles. Because it is afflicted, it is called form. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Don't you find it interesting that 'rupa' is a play on 'ruppati'? > > Now, a river is not said to be 'afflicted' according to the above > criteria of hunger &thirst in particular. > > But your physical body and my physical body are! ------------------------------------------ Howard: Yes, the Buddha's only concerns were phenomenological. (Note: I'm not asserting here that he was a phenomenalist.) ------------------------------------------ > > Swee Boon > ==================== With metta, Howard #75249 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 16, 2007 11:00 am Subject: Conditions, Ch 11, no 1. nilovg Dear friends, Chapter 11 Kamma-Condition (Kamma-Paccaya) and Vipåka-Condition (Vipåka-Paccaya) Kamma is actually cetanå cetasika, volition. Cetanå arises with each citta and it can therefore be kusala, akusala, vipåka or kiriya. Cetanå directs the associated dhammas and coordinates their tasks (Atthasåliní, Book I, Part IV, Ch I, 111). Cetanå which accompanies kusala citta and akusala citta has a double function: it directs the tasks of the associated dhammas and it has the function of “willing” or activity in good and bad deeds. In this last function it is capable to produce the results of good and bad deeds later on. There are two kinds of kamma-condition: conascent kamma-condition and asynchronous kamma-condition. Cetanå which arises with each citta directs the tasks of the associated dhammas and conditions these dhammas by way of conascent kamma-condition, sahajåta kamma-paccaya [1]. The cetanå which is kusala or akusala and which can produce the appropriate results of good deeds or bad deeds later on conditions that result by way of asynchronous kamma-condition, nåùakkhaùika kamma-paccaya. As regards conascent kamma-condition, sahajåta kamma-paccaya, the cetanås accompanying all 89 types of citta [2] are conascent kamma- condition for the citta and the other cetasikas they accompany as well as for the rúpa produced by them. The cetanå which accompanies kusala citta and akusala citta conditions citta, the other cetasikas and the rúpa produced by them by way of conascent kamma-condition, sahajåta-kamma-paccaya. Vipåkacitta and kiriyacitta can also produce rúpa [3], and the accompanying cetanå conditions citta, the other cetasikas and rúpa by way of conascent- kamma-condition, sahajåta kamma-paccaya. Seeing, hearing and the other sense-cognitions are vipåkacittas which do not produce rúpa, but the accompanying cetanå conditions citta and the other cetasikas by way of conascent kamma- condition. When the paìisandhi-citta arises the accompanying cetanå conditions that citta, the other cetasikas and also the kamma- produced rúpa which arises at the same time by way of conascent kamma- condition (Patthåna, Faultless Triplet, Investigation Chapter, Kamma, § 427, vii b). ----------- 1.The term kamma is used for good and bad deeds, but we should remember that when we are more precise, kamma is cetanå cetasika. Then we can understand that there is conascent kamma, namely, kamma or cetanå accompanying each citta. 2. Cittas which are kusala citta, akusala citta, vipåkacitta and kiriyacitta. For the classification of the different cittas see my “Abhidhamma in Daily Life”, Ch 23. 3. Citta, being one of the four factors which produces groups of rúpas of the body, can produce groups of rúpas consisting of at least the eight “inseparable rúpas” (the four great Elements, colour, odour, flavour and nutritive essense) and in addition there can be other rúpas as well in such a group. ******* Nina. #75250 From: "m. nease" Date: Thu Aug 16, 2007 1:50 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness (old post of Suan) m_nease Hi Nina, Suan and All, Thanks for re-posting this, Nina, especially: ----- Original Message ----- From: Nina van Gorkom To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 1:53 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness (old post of Suan) Suan's old post: Dear Robert K, Scott D, Mike N, Christine F, Nina and all How are you? I notice Brahamali's article regarding Jhaana controversy on Samatha forum. The problem with those who insist on samatha jhaanas as prerequisite for vipassanaa seems to be their failure to understand the reason behind the practice of samatha to the level of jhaana attainment. I am saying the above as one who would indulge in proper samatha practice in pursuit of jhaana accomplishment in the first available opportunity that is not possible in my current western lifestyle for the time being. To persue Samatha Jhaana in a western society like Australia, you either need to be rich enough to overcome any concerns related to livelihood or be brave enough to be able to survive as an outcast, perhaps living in the desert far away from western civilization. As I am neither of both, realistic samatha practice proper is out of my reach as things stand now. The most sensible approach an average person can take in a western society is, fortunately, also the most important practice of the Buddha's teachings, which is vipassanaa practice. Vipassanaa practice as taught in Satipa.t.thaana Suttam by the Buddha does not require us to attain samatha jhaanas whose main goals are superhuman powers in terms of Iddhis, which are worldly and dependent on conditions. Suan, I meant to reply to the above when you posted it--this is pretty much identical to the way I see my own situation. Thanks for stating the above so well and plainly. This kind of elucidation and encouragement is invaluable to those of us who see jhaanabhaavanaa as impractical for the vast majority of laypeople. Incredibly important, I think. mike #75251 From: "colette" Date: Thu Aug 16, 2007 10:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Memory like a Sieve . . . [Found, not Lost] ksheri3 Good Day Sarah, Boy, you seem to be aiming for something that does not exist (see Larry, Howard, and I indiscussing the principles of Sunyata or Shunyata. Although you may not have been trying to do what you've just sparked within me you have certainly given rise to things. I was going to be telling others at other esoteric sites, Western theological traditions, that I seem to be in a state of "reflection" where things mimic the ole Corning Ware coffee pots with the little glass dome on top that shows the status of the perc.. I've been relating to them that light vibrates, scientific fact, and sound vibrates, scientific fact, and so this implies that the concept of eye-consciousness is partly a result of the ears or body and that ear consciousness is partly a result of the eyes and body. Where I'm going with this is that it comes together in the Alaya-Vijnana (store house consciousness). Watch how this works since I know that something is percalating to the surface. We can't actually pinpoint where the mind is. We can say that the mind has this characteristic and that characteristic but we can't say where the mind is in relation to the body. Maybe we can be as bold as to say that the alaya-vijnana is in the brain but then that messes with the proven consciousness that I've seen an analysed in a Tai Kwon Do balck belt several years ago when I was recouperating from the first surgery to re-attach my face to my head (just another one of those attempts on my life that've been going on since 1980): this blck belt was playing around with his wife in the living room while I sat on the couch observing. <...> At that second I verbalized that, well, I was amazed, but also that I could actually see the training his muscles had received and that in the years since he competed as a black belt, he had not lost any of his training, HIS MUSCLES STILL MAINTAINED THE ABILITY TO RETURN TO THE NEEDED, TRAINED, POSITIONS, which I now have to rationalize into this concept of samadhi, equilibrium, while expanding my realisation of the alaya-vijnana. I'm sure A.C.Muller can understand my position here since he holds several black belts I beleive. The body is tactile-consciousness yet in this example, it clearly shows a relation to the alaya-vijnana, which brings us to the opening quandry: where is the mind, and in this case, where is the alaya-vijnana? This is what I originally spoke of since you know I'm working with the Madhyamika, the Yogacara, and well, the Vajrayana. While they are abstracts of the Theravada, they still maintain, as roots, Theravada principles. We can quibble about outer and inner tantras some other time. > > Ah, now I see, so you're our little red book representative here. lol > ... > S: Well, we live in China if that counts.... colette: IT CERTAINLY DOES COUNT! While I have a little experience with this dispicable profession of intelligence and/or espionage I certainly know that those that spy are not always truthful with their employers (PINK FLOYD: "even our masters don't know the webs we weave" from the song Dogs of War), and I know that the Chinese are very money motivated so you are in a position for them to cyphon from as is we are a petroleum pipeline and they can access and divert some of the flow. I believe it would be called Bodhicitta where, in this case, we are equating not the sentient beings, human organism, as the single entity but we are equating you as a human organism to the earth which you inhabit at this particular second. For me it would be I am Chicago or I am Illinois or even I am the USA. With this as the case, THEN, one of your characteristics would be that part of you is communist chinese (as I joked in a snide way, our little red book represtative). -------------------------------------- > .... > > > > This is how I read your msg, post, you are addressing Geoff and > > Zorro, I was mentioned mearly as a coincidence that raised some > > thoughts in your mind. > ... > S: I was addressing Geoff and Zorro in order to welcome them here. You're > not a new member, Colette! colette: but it was you who entered my name, associated me to the msg. or welcome that you extended to Geoff and Zorro, and so I when on a fishing trip but now it seems that there really is something on the line, no? BTW, please don't go to one of those WEstern theologians that take the easiest route by suggesting that I'm a fisher of men, etc! ---------------------------------- > ... > S: You can probably still buy or sell anything, but we definitely don't > see many American sailors these days. Not so easy for the navy to get > permission to enter the waters. I rather miss all those navy boats sailing > into the harbour. colette: I'm sure that Hong Kong harbour is still a wonderful place to observe but now you've got Hong Kong Airport built on a manmade island and all those aircraft landing/taking off in that tight airspace with all those skyscrappers. That must be interesting to watch. YET, > Let's get back to namas and rupas, Colette! What are the realities at this > moment as you read now? All these stories and dreams won't bring us closer > to the truths, will they? colette: and what is it that brings us closer to the truth or to a truth? is it not the ACTUAL EXPERIENCE that one has stored in the alaya-vijnana, their memory, their conditioning, which causes us to actually visualize the RETRIBUTIVE CONSCIOUSNESS (see Ngongdro)? But don't we recall that this truth, whatever it may be at this very second, is sunya or empty, thus making it valueless for the simple reason that your truth is not the same as my truth or any other person's truth? I think to contemplate the nature of value or the truth of value, no? ---------------------------------------- thanx for the dialogue and the interaction. I enjoyed this post! but now I've just gotta go mess around with those WEstern esoteric traditions since they are a part of this, in my case, as well, and I am personally getting a lot of satisfaction from having my decades of work with the kaballah, blending so well with my new study in buddhism. toodles, colette #75252 From: "m. nease" Date: Thu Aug 16, 2007 1:36 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Asoka, Ch 1, no 6. m_nease Hi Nina, ----- Original Message ----- From: Nina van Gorkom To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 11:27 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Asoka, Ch 1, no 6. > Why do we never hear of mindfulness of perception > (sa~n~nanusati?)? Ring any bells? --------- N: we usually have attaa-sa~n~naa and nicca-sa~n~naa. Through satipatthana there can be anattaa-sa~n~naa and anicca-sa~n~naa. Sure--though very rarely no doubt for us putthujanas. We read in the mahaa-raahulovaadasutta: < aniccasa~n~na~nhi te, raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavayato For you who are cultivating the mental development that is the perception of impermanence, yo asmimaano so pahiiyissati. that which is the conceit of “I am” will be abandoned. The Co: < As to the expression, perception of impermanence, this refers to perception that arises together with contemplation of impermanence. Or, just insight; although this is not perception, it is called perception because it is under the heading of perception. As to the words “conceit of I am”, this is conceit of “I am” in materiality and so on.> Thanks for this. 'Contemplation of impermanence'? I suppose this could apply to appamaada? satisampaja~n~na? with regard to any of the khandas? Regarding the third khandha this seems circular to me. What means 'under the heading of perception'? So the 'perception of impermance' would be perception of a dhamma, not pa.n.natti; and this does seem like insight, rather than a particular khandha, doesn't it? Different meanings in different contexts? Thanks again, mike #75253 From: "m. nease" Date: Thu Aug 16, 2007 2:20 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Response to E-card from Bangkok 3 (1) - Vipallaasas m_nease Hi Sarah, Please pardon the delayed response: ----- Original Message ----- From: sarah abbott To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 1:13 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Response to E-card from Bangkok 3 (1) - Vipallaasas ... S: Yes, sa~n~naa vipallaasa is interesting. Sometimes we read examples of what we know conventionally as wrong memory. For example, we often mistake divers for dolphins here. Yes, this is sa~n~naa vipallaasa, but so is when we note the dolphins as dolphins too! M: Yes, much the more important point I think-- S: Whenever, the citta isn't dana, sila or bhavana, there's sa~n~naa vipallaasa involved. Perversions all the time! S: Would you like to say any more on your comment about 'even more important'? I'd be glad to hear your reflections. M: If you like--it's really just that if they attend ALL akusala cittas then they're nearly all-important. I just hadn't realized they were quite that ubiquitous (since we seldom experience any other kind of (waking) citta, I think). M: I've been somewhat preoccuped with sa~n~naa for the last year or so because it seems to me that most pleasant and unpleasant feeling (and of course attachment and aversion arising with them) occur more with regard to those (perverse) perceptions arising with pa.n.natti rather than those arising with dhammas, don't you think? It isn't the instantaneous scintillae of colour or sound that are the raw material for 'the hummingbird' that condition the most attachment, in other words--it's the subsequently assembled 'whole', I think (though of course there can be instantaneous attachment to a moment of color or sound too). S: p.s You'd appreciate all the bird-life here on Sydney beaches - herons, shags, colourful parrots, kukkaburrahs....lots I don't know...So many opportunities of sa~n~naa vipallaasa in a day! M: Ain't it the truth--Lilliwaup Bay's pretty delightful this time of year too. Naturally, I will opt for the pleasant perversions when I can get them... mike #75254 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Aug 16, 2007 4:36 pm Subject: Re: Asoka, Ch 1, no 6. indriyabala Hi Mike, - You asked Nina about perception of a dhamma, not perception about pa.n.natti. >Mike: So the 'perception of impermance' would be perception of a dhamma, not pa.n.natti; and this does seem like insight, rather than a particular khandha, doesn't it? T: I think "perception aggregate" includes all dhamma, ultimate realities and pa.n.natti. "Whatever perception is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: that is called the aggregate of perception." SN 22.48 Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" wrote: > > Hi Nina, ... ... > > Thanks for this. 'Contemplation of impermanence'? I suppose this could apply to appamaada? satisampaja~n~na? with regard to any of the khandas? Regarding the third khandha this seems circular to me. > What means 'under the heading of perception'? > So the 'perception of impermance' would be perception of a dhamma, not pa.n.natti; and this does seem like insight, rather than a particular khandha, doesn't it? Different meanings in different contexts? > #75255 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Aug 16, 2007 7:21 pm Subject: [dsg] Making Comparisons (... Re: Proper Training as a Co...) buddhatrue Hi Ken (and Nina), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi James, > > -------------- > J: > I find your view of history rather distorted. The commentaries > are not like the Dead Sea Scrolls which KS dug up and revealed to the > world. The commentaries were available and studied by the > bhikkhusangha for centuries. > --------------- > > As I understand the history of Buddhist countries Theravada has waxed > and waned over the past two and a half thousand years. Sometimes > Mahayana takes over, and sometimes Buddhism fades away altogether. In > Sri Lanka the sangha died out on two or three occasions (I think) and > had to be reinstated by monks from Thailand. I have just returned to Taiwan from the US, but I wanted to check your response to my post. Now I am tired, need to unpack, and get some school business taken care of, so I will respond in more detail to your post later. In this post you make a lot of unsupported historical claims with "I think" thrown in to somehow make it all okay. I will do some research into the matter and find out for myself if the commentaries had "died off" after the period of Buddhaghosa and K. Sujin rediscovered them and revived them for the whole Buddhist world. These are some pretty lofty claims so it shouldn't be too difficult to find the proof of this if it is true. Metta, James P.S. Nina, encouraging the translation of the commentaries into Thai, while commendable, doesn't mean that KS "resurrected" the commentaries for the entire Buddhist world. #75256 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Aug 16, 2007 9:18 pm Subject: Phra Kom sarahprocter... Dear friends of Phra Kom, As you'll remember, Kom re-ordained last year after a brief and interesting flurry of posts here on the bhikkhu's life. I just got more news of him from his sister which I'd like to share. I forget his ordained name, but his sister refers to him as Phra Kom, so I'm doing the same for now. [Nina, I asked his sister if we could arrange to send a copy of 'Perfections' to him, as he assisted so much with the translation. This is the book she refers to. Suchin is a friend with an interest in ABhidhamma who plans to join DSG. I had also mentioned that Num might wish to visit him, hence the reference to visitors.] ***** "Phra Kom is staying at Wat Pah Khao Opasa in Chonburi, a small forest monastery. The monastery is in the middle of rubber, eucaliptus farm. The monastery does not encourage too many visitors (no fortune telling, sprinkling auspicious water, giving out lottery numbers, visiting laypeople's home to give blessings, etc.--the main objective there is the practice to end the dukkha), so it is quiet and sappaya for the practice. The abbot, a disciple of Ajahn Cha, is really into meditation and observe strict vinaya (no cell phone, computer, electronic gadget, even book for the monks). There are a few exchange foreign monks from Wat Pah Nanachat staying at the main monastery. There is no postal service and telephone service at the temple, not even the abbot has a cell phone), so it is best to send a copy of the book to me, and I will bring it with me the next time I go to see him. Perhaps Sachin may benefit from the book as well. Yes, I remember K.Num. We met at the hotel you were staying. I think it is okay if he wishes to visit, but perhaps it may be better for me to ask Phra Kom first. He may want to concentrate on his pariyatti and patipatti for a few years as a navaka bhikkhu and does not wish to receive many visitors...." ***** Metta, Sarah ========= #75257 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 16, 2007 6:40 am Subject: Conditions, Ch 11, no 1. nilovg Dear friends, Chapter 11 Kamma-Condition (Kamma-Paccaya) and Vipåka-Condition (Vipåka-Paccaya) Kamma is actually cetanå cetasika, volition. Cetanå arises with each citta and it can therefore be kusala, akusala, vipåka or kiriya. Cetanå directs the associated dhammas and coordinates their tasks (Atthasåliní, Book I, Part IV, Ch I, 111). Cetanå which accompanies kusala citta and akusala citta has a double function: it directs the tasks of the associated dhammas and it has the function of “willing” or activity in good and bad deeds. In this last function it is capable to produce the results of good and bad deeds later on. There are two kinds of kamma-condition: conascent kamma-condition and asynchronous kamma-condition. Cetanå which arises with each citta directs the tasks of the associated dhammas and conditions these dhammas by way of conascent kamma-condition, sahajåta kamma-paccaya [1]. The cetanå which is kusala or akusala and which can produce the appropriate results of good deeds or bad deeds later on conditions that result by way of asynchronous kamma-condition, nåùakkhaùika kamma-paccaya. As regards conascent kamma-condition, sahajåta kamma-paccaya, the cetanås accompanying all 89 types of citta [2] are conascent kamma- condition for the citta and the other cetasikas they accompany as well as for the rúpa produced by them. The cetanå which accompanies kusala citta and akusala citta conditions citta, the other cetasikas and the rúpa produced by them by way of conascent kamma-condition, sahajåta-kamma-paccaya. Vipåkacitta and kiriyacitta can also produce rúpa [3], and the accompanying cetanå conditions citta, the other cetasikas and rúpa by way of conascent- kamma-condition, sahajåta kamma-paccaya. Seeing, hearing and the other sense-cognitions are vipåkacittas which do not produce rúpa, but the accompanying cetanå conditions citta and the other cetasikas by way of conascent kamma- condition. When the paìisandhi-citta arises the accompanying cetanå conditions that citta, the other cetasikas and also the kamma- produced rúpa which arises at the same time by way of conascent kamma- condition (Patthåna, Faultless Triplet, Investigation Chapter, Kamma, § 427, vii b). ----------- 1.The term kamma is used for good and bad deeds, but we should remember that when we are more precise, kamma is cetanå cetasika. Then we can understand that there is conascent kamma, namely, kamma or cetanå accompanying each citta. 2. Cittas which are kusala citta, akusala citta, vipåkacitta and kiriyacitta. For the classification of the different cittas see my “Abhidhamma in Daily Life”, Ch 23. 3. Citta, being one of the four factors which produces groups of rúpas of the body, can produce groups of rúpas consisting of at least the eight “inseparable rúpas” (the four great Elements, colour, odour, flavour and nutritive essense) and in addition there can be other rúpas as well in such a group. ******* Nina. #75258 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 17, 2007 12:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Phra Kom nilovg Dear Sarah, I am so happy to have news from Phra Kom, and I still think of him, coming across a post of him on Jhana on Rob's study forum. What is the address of his sister, I could send two copies. Interesting to hear about life at his monastery and strict Vinaya. Not easy to find such a monastery nowadays. Nina. Op 17-aug-2007, om 6:18 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > I asked his sister if we could arrange to send a copy of > 'Perfections' to him #75259 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 17, 2007 12:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Making Comparisons (... Re: Proper Training as a Co...) nilovg Hi James, Op 17-aug-2007, om 4:21 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > P.S. Nina, encouraging the translation of the commentaries into Thai, > while commendable, doesn't mean that KS "resurrected" the commentaries > for the entire Buddhist world. -------- N: Rob M once made a simile: a stone thrown into the water makes a circle and these circles become wider and wider. We never know in how far a person's influence goes. Kh Sujin's radio programs are also heard in neighbouring countries, her books are translated, Sarah and Jon prepare audios of her talks. What is interesting is that there was a change in attitude towards tradition and teachers at that time. Especially in Asia people would follow teachers and not check sources themselves. Also, authors at that time did not find it necessary to mention their sources. People would listen to teachers and keep silent, not speaking. Perhaps Han (where is he, I miss him for so long) can tell us about Myanmar tradition. Kh Sujin would say: check the texts themselves, read commentaries and subcommentaries. Mention your sources. Nowadays, in this time of internet, everything is different. We can go straight to the Pali texts. But formerly it was quite different. In the beginning the Thai audience would not speak much, but now they do speak out. Nina. #75260 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Aug 17, 2007 12:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Phra Kom sarahprocter... Dear Nina, I knew that you and others would be glad to hear news of him. I think that Num may visit the wat or help deliver copies to his sister. She lives in central Bkk, so no problem. Otherwise, Sukin or we'll help. it's been in my mind to try and find a way to give him a copy as I know he helped you so much with it. Metta, Sarah --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Sarah, > I am so happy to have news from Phra Kom, and I still think of him, > coming across a post of him on Jhana on Rob's study forum. What is > the address of his sister, I could send two copies. > Interesting to hear about life at his monastery and strict Vinaya. > Not easy to find such a monastery nowadays. #75261 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Aug 17, 2007 12:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Howard As A Good Friend Of Theravada -- Re: Proper Training as a Contemplative sarahprocter... Hi James, --- buddhatrue wrote: > > 'Compendium of Consciousness' in 'Comprehensive Manual of > Abhidhamma' ed > > by B.Bodhi: > > > > "Those who develop insight without a basis of jhaana are called > > practitioners of bare insight (sukkhavipassaka). When they reach > the path > > and fruit, their path and fruition cittas occur at a level > corresponding > > to the first jhaana. > > > > "Those who develop insight on the basis of jhaana attain a path and > fruit > > which corresponds to the level of jhaana they had attained before > reaching > > the path." > > ... > >J: I don't agree with what B. Bodhi writes about this subject. ... S: That's fine, but I was just pointing out that it wasn't some strange interpretation just held by A.Sujin and others of us, but is mainstream Theravada. The above is not B.Bodhi's personal view. In the commentary to the Abhidhammathasa'ngaha (end ch1), there is extensive detail on the counting of 89 vs 121 cittas, reference to sukkhavipassaka and so on. I can quote some, but it's very detailed and long. See also Nina's message to you: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/73273 ... >There > are many different interpretations in secondary sources, it is best > to stick with the original source- the Vism. ... S: Fine! ... >J: The Vism. states that the Sukkhavipassaka > (dry-insight worker) achieves enlightenment with the first jhana as a > basis. ..... S: Vism XX1, 112: "According to governance by insight [vipassanaaniyamena], the path arisen in a bare-insight worker [sukkhavipassakassa], and the path arisen in one who possesses a jhana attainment but who has not made the jhana the basis for insight, and the path made to arise by comprehending unrelated formations after using the first jhana as the basis for insight, are paths of the first jhana only....." The text here is differentiating here between ariyans who are sukkhavipassakas (who haven't previously attained jhana)and those who have previously attained jhanas (but the jhana is not the basis for enlightenment). In all these cases, the strenght or absorption of the path is equivalent to first jhana and they are therefore referred to as 'paths of the first jhana (pa.thamajjhaanika)'. When jhana is the basis, enlightenment occurs at the degree of jhana just attained. **** Also, in this passage from the Vism, XX111,18, the text differentiates between arahants who are sukkhavipassakas and those who have attained jhanas. The former cannot attain nirodhasammapatti: Herein, i)"What is the attainment of cessation[nirodhasamaapatti]? Is is the non-occurrence of consciousness and its concomitants owing to their progressive cessation. ii)Who attains it? iii)Who do not attain it? No ordinary men, no stream-enterers or once-returners, and no non-returners and Arahants who are bare-insight workers [sukkhavipassakaa ca anaagaami-arahanto] attain it. But both non-returners and those with cankers destroyed (Arahants) who are obtainers of the eight attainments attain it." Do you have other passages or comments on these? Metta, Sarah ======= #75262 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 17, 2007 1:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Asoka, Ch 1, no 6. nilovg Dear Mike, your remarks are appreciated. Op 16-aug-2007, om 22:36 heeft m. nease het volgende geschreven: > N: we usually have attaa-sa~n~naa and nicca-sa~n~naa. Through > satipatthana there can be anattaa-sa~n~naa and anicca-sa~n~naa. > > M: Sure--though very rarely no doubt for us putthujanas. ------------ N: Sorry, I miss something here. No doubt of what? --------- > > > The Co: < As to the expression, perception of impermanence, this > refers to perception that arises together with contemplation of > impermanence. > Or, just insight; although this is not perception, it is called > perception because it is under the heading of perception. > As to the words “conceit of I am”, this is conceit of “I am” in > materiality and so on.> > > M: Thanks for this. 'Contemplation of impermanence'? I > suppose this could apply to appamaada? satisampaja~n~na? with > regard to any of the khandas? ------- N: To satipatthana and the development of vipassana ~naa.nas. means: with regard to any nama or rupa that appears now. If there is appamada, non-forgetfulness of nama and rupa, there is a beginning of satipatthana and this can lead to stages of insight, provided there is no clinging to them, wanting to know. -------- > M: Regarding the third khandha this seems circular to me. > What means 'under the heading of perception'? --------- It does refer to satipatthana. Why anicca-sa~n~naa? because this can arise instead of our usual nicca-sa~n~naa: the sa~n~naa that wrongly remembers a person or thing that seems to be there already for some time and seems to last. This is so common, isn't it? Looking at Lodewijk. -------- > M: So the 'perception of impermance' would be perception of a > dhamma, not pa.n.natti; and this does seem like insight, rather > than a particular khandha, doesn't it? Different meanings in > different contexts? N: We also find in other texts the use of sa~n~naa when we would expect citta. Like the rebirth-consciousness is called: pa.tisandhi sa~n~naa that may be in the case of humans, with three roots, two roots or rootless (Mahaaniddesa sutta Co.) Sarah discussed this with Kh Sujin, I believe. There must be a reason for sa~n~naa, perhaps its power? For anicca-sa~n`naa it is clearer, as opposed to nicca-sa~n~naa. Now your interesting remark to Sarah: M: M: I've been somewhat preoccuped with sa~n~naa for the last year or so because it seems to me that most pleasant and unpleasant feeling (and of course attachment and aversion arising with them) occur more with regard to those (perverse) perceptions arising with pa.n.natti rather than those arising with dhammas, don't you think? It isn't the instantaneous scintillae of colour or sound that are the raw material for 'the hummingbird' that condition the most attachment, in other words--it's the subsequently assembled 'whole', I think (though of course there can be instantaneous attachment to a moment of color or sound too). -------- N: As Sarah explained: there is sa~n~naa vipallasa with each akusala citta. We do not notice the akusala citta arising just after seeing or hearing and that is a danger. Sa~n~naa marks the object but does so in an unwholesome way. There are countless moments of seeing again and again and if we are not engaged with dana, sila or bhaavanaa, the javanacittas are akusala. How they run on! Unknown. At those moments there is also perversion of sa~n~naa. It is good to know, I think. If one does not know one accumulates ever more akusala. It can also deceive one if one believes that the hindrances have been overcome already. Nina. > #75263 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Aug 17, 2007 1:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: satipatthana as island of refuge sarahprocter... Hi Tep, --- Tep Sastri wrote: > S: No matter what the prior experiences, whether jhana experiences or > any other states, whatever appears has to be known as being > conditioned, impermanent, unsatisfactory and anatta in order for the > realization of the unconditioned state and the eradication of > defilements. > > T: A proposed deduction: That realization happens in a single moment > then disappears along with the citta and associated cetasikas. If > that deduction is correct, what about ruupa and nibbana in that > moment -- do they disappear too ? If that deduction is incorrect, > then please correct it for me. Thanks. .... S: Yes, your deduction is correct. Good questions too! The realization is momentary - just one magga citta only. So the NEP citta and cetasikas arise and fall away together instantly, because like all other cittas and cetasikas, they are conditioned and impermanent. At that moment, nibbana is realized. That means it is the object of the lokuttara citta and cetasikas. When the citta and cetasikas fall away, it means it is no longer the object, (though in fact it is also the object of the immediately following lokuttara phala (fruition) cittas as well). Nibbana is the unconditioned dhamma, as you know well, so it doesn't arise or disappear. It just means at other moments it is not experienced. Just like now! At any moment in this sense-realm, there are always groups of rupas arising and falling away, but unless a rupa is the object of the citta, they are not experienced. So at the moment of enlightenment, nibbana is the object, so no rupa is known, but without the support of the groups of rupas, there could be no citta arising. The 'basis' for all mind-door cittas (inc. the lokuttara cittas) is the haddaya-vatthu, the heart-base. So at that moment, the decad of the heart-base (hadayadasaka kalaapa) which includes the 8 inseperable rupas, plus heart-base, plus life-faculty, must be present. This may be quite an important area to pursue if you have further comments or questions. Metta, Sarah ====== #75264 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 17, 2007 1:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness (old post of Suan) nilovg Dear Mike (and Suan), I was touched by your very sincere post. Op 16-aug-2007, om 22:50 heeft m. nease het volgende geschreven: > Suan:Vipassanaa practice as taught in Satipa.t.thaana Suttam by the > Buddha > does not require us to attain samatha jhaanas whose main goals are > superhuman powers in terms of Iddhis, which are worldly and dependent > on conditions. > > Mike: Suan, I meant to reply to the above when you posted it--this > is pretty much identical to the way I see my own situation. Thanks > for stating the above so well and plainly. This kind of elucidation > and encouragement is invaluable to those of us who see > jhaanabhaavanaa as impractical for the vast majority of laypeople. > Incredibly important, I think. ----------- N: Mike, if this is not too personal, how were your feelings as to samatha and vipassana when you first sought ordination, long ago? you need not answer this. Sarah wrote about Kom's monastery where there are no hindrances as to having to do ceremonies for laypeople all the time. This was a complaint I heard. Monk's life is harder than one would first imagine, not as ideal as it seems. Then you have to put up with your fellowmonks, being so close to them. Kom himself wrote a very good post about jhana before. How one must lead the life of a monk in order to be consistent. Away from sense pleasures. Nina. #75265 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Aug 17, 2007 2:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: satipatthana as island of refuge sarahprocter... Hi Tep, --- Tep Sastri wrote: > > Hi Sarah, - > > I have observed (and appreciated) how you discuss the Dhamma without > getting involved as if "there is discussion but there is no one > discussing". But to me there is always someone discussing the Dhamma > with me (not just the pixels and light visible on the computer > screen), but the important thing is that I have no atta-ditthi in > that moment. ... S: Yes, well only panna can know at any given moment. It's not a question of how friendly or not we are, how involved or personal we are or not:-) .... <...> > S: As often discussed, not all who become enlightened have developed > the mundane jhanas however. In the sutta, the Buddha addresses those > who become arahats having attained the highest jhanas and thereby all > abhinnas. Do we still agree here? > > T: Yes, mostly so except the word "mundane". In the past (three years > ago) I would disagree and insist that the jhaanas through samatha > bhavana must be developed first. However, I still believe in the only > kind of jhaanas called samma-samaadhi as defined in the suttas, no > mundane or lokuttara categorization. ... > S: Thx again for the sutta refs you provide in context - v.helpful. > > T: But my view (or interpretation) is not, right? ... S: As you've said before, it doesn't matter if we disagree about some of our conclusions. We all consider what we read carefully and the refs and discussion is helpful. ... >I will continue to > discuss the Dhamma only when the person(or persons) on the other side > says "very helpful". Otherwise, why continue? ... S: Well, it's possible that one might be saying something very helpful which the person doesn't appreciate at the time but which proves to be helpful later, wouldn't you agree? I think it all depends on our intentions. Better not to have any expectations of any particular response:). .... >Similarly, why discuss > the Dhamma when "there is no one discussing" ! .... S: !! Because cittas discuss and some cittas need to be developed and other cittas exposed for what they are! Thanks, Tep. "Very Helpful"!!! Metta, Sarah ======= #75266 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Aug 17, 2007 4:39 am Subject: Re: not hard to accept. scottduncan2 Dear Nina, Thank for the reply: N: "As Sarah said, different meanings in different contexts, and also: it depends on the citta that reviews. The cittas may be different. The monks should review the requisites, at the time of receiving them or afterwards. How would he review? If he is developing satipatthana, he is also aware of this reviewing as non-self. He should. He should see the food he received as medicine for the body, or as elements. Many ways of reflecting and reviewing, of yoniso manaasikaara but no self. This is very difficult, don't you think? Self slips in all the time." Scott: Very difficult. Let me see if I've understood so far. Paccavekkhana is the term describing a function of citta. Since citta is variegated then paccavekkhana can be of different kinds. The mental factor which is central in the process would be manaasikaara, which can either be yoniso or ayoniso. The reviewing, I'm supposing, can occur of one moment or conditions might be such that a series of moments are of the same nature. When reading the sutta, it is tempting to take the statement of the Buddha as a simple instruction. I don't think that it is reflection is I just decide to reflect and start thinking about things, but it will seem to me as if it is reflection and I'll be tempted to say, 'This is easy, this is a basic instruction by the Buddha of a very basic practise I can do.' What are the objects of this reflection? Not concepts or thoughts about concepts? For example, as I was telling Andrew, take the day a child left the bathroom door open while I was cleaning and the cat knocked the litter box off its perch on the toilet all over the floor (I was cleaning the bathroom floor and had to close the door because I had been interrupted). Right now I can recall now how anger arose. Now I can recall an echo of the flavour of that experience. Now I can also recall how it also arose that this anger became object for a moment and was 'noted' as anger. And I can now recall how this lead to a thinking about things and Dhamma and how the angry man is ugly, etc., a subsidence of anger and a general playing it cool, putting it into perspective, and just cleaning the floor again. What, if any, of the above would be paccavekkhana? How would the whole notion of na-vattaba fit here? In other words, again, what is the object of paccavekkhana? The reflection, in this case, is of a past 'event.' This would be conceptual since it involves ideas about persons and animals and things. The reflection includes a wordless 'memory' of the quality of dosa-mula-citta and its subsidence (not of the moment, but over time). N: "...We can think wisely, with kusala citta and in between there can also be sati sampaja~n~na that realizes that this reflection is nama, no self. Mostly we are pleased when reflecting on dhamma, it is still self that reflects wisely, Kh Sujin would say. She reminds: self studies, self considers. Does this not solve the dilemma? It all depends on the citta at a given moment. After the lokuttara citta is only one context as Sarah discussed with Kh Sujin, and there are more contexts where reflection is used." Scott: I'll leave it for now and will look forward to your clarification. Sincerely, Scott. #75267 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Fri Aug 17, 2007 5:15 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (64) nichiconn Dear Friends, 11. Dvaadasakanipaato 1. Uppalava.n.naatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa part 20 txt: Athassa maataa udakakicca.m katvaa udaka.m gahetvaa pa.tinivattitvaa putta.m apassantii sokaabhibhuutaa paridevitvaa raajagaha.m appavisitvaava magga.m pa.tipajji. Ta.m a~n~nataro coraje.t.thako antaraamagge disvaa pa.tibaddhacitto attano pajaapati.m akaasi. Saa tassa gehe vasantii eka.m dhiitara.m vijaayi. Atha saa ekadivasa.m dhiitara.m gahetvaa .thitaa saamikena bha.n.ditvaa dhiitara.m ma~ncake khipi. Daarikaaya siisa.m thoka.m bhindi. Tato saapi saamika.m bhaayitvaa raajagahameva paccaagantvaa serivicaarena vicarati. Pruitt: Then the mother, having finished the obligatory [ritual] ablution, taking water, returned, and not seeing her son, she was overwhelmed by grief and lamented. She did not enter Raajagaha, but continued on the road. A certain leader of a band of thieves saw her on the road, became enamoured [of her], and made her his own wife. Living in his house, she bore a daughter. Then one day, when her daughter was standing there with her, she quarrelled with her husband and threw her daughter down on a couch. The girl's head was split open a little. Then she was afraid of her husband, and returning to Raajagaha, she wandered about, going where she pleased. Tassaa putto pa.thamayobbane .thito "maataa"ti ajaananto attano pajaapati.m akaasi. Aparabhaage ta.m coraje.t.thakadhiitara.m bhaginibhaava.m ajaananto vivaaha.m katvaa attano geha.m aanesi. Eva.m so attano maatara.m bhagini~nca pajaapatii katvaa vaasesi. Tena taa ubhopi sapattivaasa.m vasi.msu. Her son, when he was in the flower of his youth, not knowing it was his mother, made her his own wife. Afterwards, not knowing that the daughter of the leader of the band of thieves was his sister, he married her and brought her back to his own home. In this way, he made his own mother and sister his wives and had them live with him. Therefore, both of them lived together as co-wives. Athekadivasa.m maataa dhiitu kesava.t.ti.m mocetvaa uuka.m olokentii siise va.na.m disvaa "appevanaamaaya.m mama dhiitaa bhaveyyaa"ti pucchitvaa sa.mvegajaataa hutvaa raajagahe bhikkhunupassaya.m gantvaa pabbajitvaa katapubbakiccaa vivekavaasa.m vasantii attano ca pubbapa.tipatti.m paccavekkhitvaa "ubho maataa"ti-aadikaa gaathaa abhaasi. Taa pana taaya vuttagaathaava kaamesu aadiinavadassanavasena paccanubhaasantii aya.m therii "ubho maataa ca dhiitaa caa"ti-aadimaaha. Tena vutta.m- "saa jhaanasukhena phalasukhena nibbaanasukhena ca viitinaamentii imaa tisso gaathaa abhaasii"ti. Then one day, when the mother undid the daughter's hair net to look for lice, saw the [scar of the] wound on her head. And she asked herself, "Might this perhaps be my daughter?" A profound stirring arose, and she went to the bhikkhuniis' monastery in Raajagaha and went forth. She fulfilled the preliminary duties, and dwelling in seclusion, she considered her former conduct and spoke the verses beginning The two of us, mother... But [Uppalava.n.naa] repeated the verses that were spoken by [the mother] because she saw the peril in sensual pleasures. This therii said, The two of us, mother and daughter, etc. Therefore it is said [above]: "She spent her time in the happiness of the absorption states, in the happiness of quenching, and she spoke these three verses." On verse: 225. "Dhiratthu kaamaa asucii, duggandhaa bahuka.n.takaa; yattha maataa ca dhiitaa ca, sabhariyaa maya.m ahu.m. 225. Woe upon sensual pleasures, impure, evil smelling, with many troubles, wherein we, mother and daughter, were co-wives. txt: Tattha asuciiti kilesaasucipagghara.nena asucii. Duggandhaati visagandhavaayanena puutigandhaa. Bahuka.n.takaati visuuyikappavattiyaa sucaritavinivijjhana.t.thena bahuvidhakilesaka.n.takaa. Tathaa hi te sattisuuluupamaa kaamaati vuttaa. Yatthaati yesu kaamesu paribhu~njitabbesu. Sabhariyaati samaanabhariyaa, sapattiyoti attho. Pruitt: 225. There, impure means: impure because of the oozing impurity of defilements. Evil smelling (du-ggandhaa) means: smelling rotten (puuti-gandhaa) because it emits an odour smelling of poison (visa-ganda-vaayanene). With many troubles means: having the thorns of many sorts of defilements based on the penetration of good conduct through the occurrence of distortions. Similarly, sensual pleasures are spoken of as being like swords and stakes. Wherein means: among those sensual pleasures that are to be enjoyed. Co-wives (sabhariyaa) means: common wives (samaana-bhariyaa), fellow wives (sapattiyo); that is the meaning. ===more to come, connie #75268 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 17, 2007 6:48 am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 178, 179 and Tiika. nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 178, 179 Intro: The previous section dealt with the kusala vipaakacitttas arising as rebirth-consciousness. Section 178 deals with the kusala vipaakacittas arising in the course of life. Some kusala kammas of the past produce rebirth-consciousness and some produce vipaakacittas such as seeing or hearing arising in the course of life. In the following section, 179, all kusala vipaakacittas of the sense- sphere, arising as rebirth-consciousness and arising in the course of life, have been summarized as eight types: eight types accompanied by roots, and eight types without roots. Those which arise as rebirth- consciousness do so only in the happy planes of existence of the sense sphere. Moreover, this section also deals with ruupaavacaara vipaakacittas arising as rebirth-consciousness in the ruupa-brahma planes. -------- Text Vis.178: That of the sense sphere divided up as aforesaid is a condition in two ways, as aforesaid, for seven kinds of limited [-sphere] resultant consciousness ((34)-(40))--excluding the root-causeless mind- consciousness element accompanied by equanimity (41)--in the course of an existence, but not in rebirth-linking, in the happy destinies in the sense-sphere becoming. --------- N: The limited (paritta) resultant consciousness are the vipaakacittas that experience sense objects. These are the five sense- cognitions, receiving-consciousness and investigating-consciousness which are ahetuka kusala vipaakacittas. Investigating-consciousness, santiira.nacitta, is classified as root- causeless mind-consciousness element, ahetuka mano-vi~n~naa.nadhaatu. Here only the type accompanied by happy feeling is referred to, since this section deals with vipaakacittas arising only in the course of life, not as rebirth-consciousness. As to ‘ in two ways, as aforesaid’ this refers to formations being a condition as kamma condition acting from a different time and as decisive-support condition. As we have seen, for kamma to be able to produce result not only kamma-condition, but also natural decisive support-condition is operating. --------- Text Vis. : And that same formation is a condition likewise for five kinds of resultant consciousness ((34), (35), (39)-(41)) in the course of an existence, not in rebirth-linking, in the fine-material becoming. -------- N: It produces five kinds of result in the ruupa-brahma planes, and these are, according to the Tiika: seeing, hearing, receiving- consciousness, and two types of investigating-consciousness, one accompanied by happy feeling and one accompanied by indifferent feeling. These are the results of kusala kamma of the sense-sphere. The rebirth-consciousnesses in the ruupa-brahma planes are produced by ruupaavacara kusala kamma, not by kamma of the sense sphere. ---------- Text Vis.: It is a condition likewise for eight kinds of limited [-sphere] resultant consciousness ((34)-(41)) in the course of an existence, not in rebirth-linking, in the unhappy destinies in the sense-sphere becoming. For then it is a condition [for such profitable-resultant consciousness occurring] in hell encountering a desirable object [on such occasions] as the Elder Mahaa-Moggallaana's visits to hell, and so on. But among animals and powerful ghosts too a desirable object is obtained [through the same condition]. --------- N: The eight types of kusala vipaakacittas that may arise in unhappy destinies are: five sense-cognitions, receiving-consciousness and two types of investigating-consciousness, one accompanied by happy feeling and one accompanied by indifferent feeling. The Tiika states that the example of Moggallana has been given as answer to the question whether pleasant objects can be experienced in unhappy planes. The Tiika mentions that Moggallana, by his supranatural power, created rain and after having quenched the fire of Hell, preached Dhamma to those dwelling there. ----------- Text Vis. 179: This eightfold formation of merit is also a condition likewise for sixteen kinds of profitable-resultant consciousness in the course of an existence ((34)-(41)) and in rebirth-linking ((42)-(49)) in the happy destinies in the sense-sphere becoming. -------- N: There are sixteen kusala vipaakacittas of the sense-sphere, of which eight are ahetuka and eight are sahetuka, with roots. Those with roots occur also in the course of life as tadaarama.nacittas, registration-consciousness, arising after the javanacittas. --------- Text Vis.: It is also a condition equally for all ten kinds of resultant consciousness in the course of an existence ((34), (35), (39)-(41) and in rebirth-linking ((57)-(61)) in the fine-material becoming. ---------- N: The kusala vipaakacittas arising in the ruupa-brahmaplanes are, as we have seen, seeing, hearing, receiving-consciousness, and two types of investigating-consciousness, one accompanied by happy feeling and one accompanied by indifferent feeling. As to the results as rebirth-consciousness in the ruupa-brahmaplanes, these are produced by the five kinds of ruupaavacara kusala cittas. The Tiika explains that the results of kaamaavacara kusala kamma and ruupaavacara kusala kamma are treated here together. Pu~n~naabhisa”nkhaara, the formation of merit, includes kusala kamma of the sense-sphere and also ruupaavacara kusala kamma, the kusala kamma that is ruupa-jhaana. ------- Conclusion: Rebirth in a particular plane of existence is in conformity with the kamma that produced it. During life in that plane other kammas have the opportunity to produce results. When kamma of the sense-sphere produced rebirth, there is rebirth in a sensuous plane. In the human plane we experience desirable and undesirable objects. In the deva planes one experiences more desirable objects than in the human plane. In the Hell planes one experiences extremely undesirable objects, but even in those planes there can sometimes be an opportunity for past kusala kamma to produce the experience of a desirable object, such as occurred when Moggallana visited the Niraya Hell. The animal world is an unhappy plane of existence but we can see that the lives of different animals vary. Depending on kamma they can also experience many pleasant objects. Those who are reborn in the ruupa-brahmaplanes cultivated the conditions for detachment from sense objects and as a consequence not all sense-cognitions arise, only seeing and hearing. Pu~n~naabhisa”nkhaara, including kusala kamma of the sensesphere, daana, siila and bhaavanaa, and also ruupaavacaara kusala kamma, conditions, as we have seen, vipaakacitta arising as rebirth- consciousness and vipaakacitta arising in the course of life. ****** Nina. #75269 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Aug 17, 2007 3:32 am Subject: Some Questions Arising Out of Abhidhamma Study upasaka_howard Hi All,   As you may know, another list member, Dieter Moeller, and I have been slowly going through the Abhidhammata Sangaha. In the course of our discussions, we have come up with some questions we would like to pose to the Abhidhammikas (and others) on the list, the following two for a start:      1) Does Abhidhamma consider rupas, cittas, and cetasikas just as "real" as nibbana, and if yes, what is the meaning of "real" in Abhidhamma?          With regard to the conditioned dhammas, the Buddha has taught that "Form is like a glob of foam; feeling, a bubble; perception, a mirage; fabrications, a banana tree; consciousness, a magic trick — this has been taught by the Kinsman of the Sun. However you observe them, appropriately examine them, they're empty, void to whoever sees them appropriately."         Now, nibbana, which is unarisen, unceasing, and unconditioned indeed sounds like "reality" to us. But whatever is like a glob of foam, a bubble, a mirage, hollow like a banana tree, and a magic trick does not sound very "real". So we wonder about lumping together the conditioned dhammas with nibbana as all "ultimates" let alone "realities".       2) For us, any nama is a mental activity or quality - a mode of knowing or a concomitant to knowing. Literally it pertains to naming/addressing, does it not? Why is nibbana classified as nama when it is said to experience no object? This strikes us as quite odd. Actually, it seems to us that nibbana would be best left unclassified, as neither nama nor rupa, and not in fact a thing at all in any sense comparable to dhammas. Classifying it at all, for example as nama, appears to constrain and categorize what is beyond conditions.          Actually, we wonder *where* nibbana is classified as nama. Is there a source to trace this classification in the Tipitaka? Interestingly, the place in the Abhidhammata Sangaha where nibbana is discussed is the Compendium of Matter! In any case, nibbana does not seem to be classified in that work as nama. With metta, Howard #75270 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Aug 17, 2007 12:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: satipatthana as island of refuge sarahprocter... Hi Swee Boon, --- nidive wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > > Conversely the nimitta or concepts experienced by jhana cittas are > > concepts experienced by way of unclassifiable objects, similarly > > representing concepts of other objects. In fact all concepts can be > > classified in this way. So we have both paramattha dhammas and > > concepts classified by way of unclassifiable objects;-)." > > This is mind boggling. ... S: :-) I know.... You've opened a can of worms here... I'd like to say, it's not important and just forget it if it's a distraction! .... > When experiencing an unclassifiable object, how does one know > that it is of a paramattha dhamma or of a concept? .... S: Very good question! Better to just understand what paramattha dhammas are and to develop understanding of them without being side-tracked by the technical details. For some it's helpful to appreciate the detailed mechanics, but in terms of the development of satipatthana, it's not important at all. If there is awareness of the characteristic of visible object, for example, it makes no difference at all whether it is the paramattha dhamma known in the sense-door process or the paramattha dhamma by way of unclassifiable object in the mind-door process. The characteristic is exactly the same. When there is thinking about the visible object, one knows the object is a concept. .... > > Does it come with a mental marker or label? ... S: Again, a good question! I was about to just say 'no'. When the paramattha dhamma is directly experienced, there is no doubt at that moment that it is the characteristic of reality, not a concept. However, all conditioned dhammas have a nimitta (marker?)and in fact it is the nimitta of the paramattha dhamma which is experienced until the highly developed insight which directly realises the arising and passing away of paramattha dhammas has been developed. Thus, the insight gets closer and closer to the paramattha dhamma itself. However, the most important thing is to clearly understand the difference between paramattha dhammas and concepts so that awareness and understanding of the former can develop. This is why the pariyatti is so important for patipatti. ... > If it is not possible to know, of what good is the distinction > between a paramattha dhamma and a concept? ... S: It is possible to know and for the wisdom to develop, becoming stronger and stronger, knowing the characteristics of paramattha dhammas more and more precisely. Very sharp questions:-) Metta, Sarah ======== #75271 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 17, 2007 7:48 am Subject: Asoka, Ch 2, no 1. nilovg Dear friends, Chapter 2 Ultimate Realities. We paid respect to the Buddha in the holy places by incense and candles, by walking around the stupas and the Bodhi-tree, by chanting and reciting texts from the scriptures and the commentaries. We can pay respect above all by studying and considering the Dhamma and by developing satipaììhåna which is the way to directly understand the true nature of the realities the Buddha taught for fortyfive years. Therefore we had Dhamma discussions as often as we could in the holy places and in the hotels where we stayed. Without the understanding of the Dhamma it is difficult to take one’s refuge in the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha. One may pay respect because one has been taught to do so, but one’s confidence may not be very strong. When we develop right understanding of the realities the Buddha taught our confidence and also our respect for the Buddha will grow. The Buddha taught that there is no person, no self. What we take for a person are mental phenomena, nåma, and physical phenomena, rúpa, which arise and then fall away. Nåma experiences something whereas rúpa does not experience anything. Citta, consciousness, is nåma, it experiences an object. Seeing is a citta experiencing colour or visible object, hearing is a citta experiencing sound. Only one citta arises at a time and then falls away immediately, to be succeeded by the next citta. There cannot be seeing and hearing at the same time. Each citta is accompanied by several mental factors, cetasikas, such as feeling, remembrance and contact. Mental factors, cetasikas, are nåma, they experience the same object as the citta they accompany but they have each their own function while they assist the citta in experiencing that object. Cetasikas arise and fall away together with the citta they accompany. Rúpa does not experience anything. There are different kinds of rúpas which can be rúpas of the body or physical phenomena outside. Visible object, sound, odour, flavour and tangible object are rúpas which are experienced by different cittas. Eyesense is a kind of rúpa in the eye which is able to receive the impact of colour, and earsense is a kind of rúpa in the ear which is able to receive the impact of sound, and also the other senses can receive the appropriate sense objects. The senses are rúpas which do not know anything, but they are the means through which citta can experience an object. They are called “doorway”, in Påli: dvåra. When we think of the conventional term “door” we think of something which lasts, but the doors of the senses do not last, they arise, perform their function and then fall away. Seeing experiences colour through the eye-door, hearing experiences sound through the ear-door, and it is the same with the other sense- cognitions. ******** Nina. #75272 From: "nidive" Date: Fri Aug 17, 2007 9:30 am Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge nidive Hi Howard, > What I have from Nyanatiloka is the following: > > > The 12 'bases' or 'sources' on which depend the mental processes, > > consist of five physical sense-organs and consciousness, being > > the six personal (ajjhattika) bases; and the six objects, the > > so-called external (bahira) bases > > Now, of the 6 personal bases, and also of the 6 external bases, > five are rupic. So, I did not understand why "contemplation on the > six sense bases is contemplation on mental qualities." What you have quoted didn't actually say that 5 of the external bases are rupic. It merely says that 5 of the internal bases are rupic. I agree that the eyes, the ears, the nose, the tongue and the skin body are rupic. Contemplation of these 5 sense organs alone (without considering their interaction with the respective external bases) comes under contemplation on the 1st frame of reference in DN 22. > As I see it, concepts are actually nothing at all. Only the > dhammas upon which conceptualizing works are phenomena that arise > and cease. When there are certain dhammas experienced, thinking > projects "tree". When other dhammas are experienced, thinking > projects "mountain". When seeing a beautiful sight, I am not interested in Rupa A or Rupa B or Rupa C that makes up that image. I am interested in the image as a whole. According to Abhidhamma, that image is a concept. When hearing a melodious piece of music, I am not interested in Rupa D or Rupa E or Rupa F that makes up that melody. I am interested in the melody as a whole. According to Abhidhamma, that melody is a concept. Now, which do you think has the most power to evoke attachment, aversion & delusion in me? Rupa A, B, C, or the beautiful sight as a whole? Rupa D, E, F, or the melodious piece of music as a whole? Do you need to guess? According to my interpretation, that beautiful sight as a whole (and not Rupa A, B or C) is the external sense base corresponding to the internal eye base. And that melodious piece of music as a whole (and not Rupa D, E or F) is the external sense base corresponding to the internal ear base. I think my interpretation is in line with the suttas where the Buddha elaborates the arising of craving in dependence on each of the internal & external sense bases. If "concepts" are nothing at all, how could it give rise to attachment, aversion & delusion? Something that is non-existent cannot possibly condition something to come into existence. It is logically inconsistent. I find that dropping the Abhidhammic perspective on the "sense door rupas" and "concepts" liberates the suttas. Well, figuratively. > However, seeing directly that every actual phenomenon lasts for no > time at all, either ceasing "itself" or ceasing "as a > thing-in-relation" due to other related phenomena arising and > ceasing, one comes to know with an immediacy the radical > impermanence and ungraspability of the all, and that does liberate. Is there any reason what you said above cannot be applied to "that beautiful sight as a whole" and "that melodious piece of music as a whole"? Simply because they are 'nothing'? Isn't that just an intellectual presumption based on Abhidhammic theory? > In fact, oppositely, "the river" is based on them. Not to be rude, but based on my understanding of your theory of rupas, when taken to the extreme, a river can be a snake and a snake can be a river depending on how one senses, taking into account one's personal preferences/biasness/cravings/etc. Swee Boon #75273 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 17, 2007 12:22 pm Subject: Conditions, Ch 11, no 2. nilovg Dear friends, Asynchronous kamma-condition, nånakkhanika kamma- paccaya [1], pertains to kusala cetanå or akusala cetanå which is able to produce later on results of good or evil deeds committed through body, speech and mind. The cetanå, volition or intention, which motivates a good or bad deed falls away, but since each citta conditions the next one in the cycle of birth and death, the force of cetanå is accumulated from moment to moment so that it can produce result later on. It conditions the result in the form of vipåkacitta and specific rúpas of the body [2] by way of asynchronous kamma-condition. When one, for example, slanders, there is akusala kamma through speech and this can produce akusala vipåka later on. The akusala cetanå or kamma conditions the vipåkacitta which arises later on by way of asynchronous kamma-condition. At the same time, the akusala cetanå is related to the citta and cetasikas it accompanies and to speech intimation (vacíviññatti), a rúpa produced by citta, by way of conascent kamma-condition. Thus, cetanå is in different ways a condition for other phenomena. There are kusala kamma and akusala kamma through body, speech and mind, and they are of different degrees. Kamma is not always a “completed action”, kamma patha. There are certain constituent factors which make kamma a completed action. For example, in the case of killing there have to be: a living being, consciousness of there being a living being, intention of killing, effort and consequent death (Atthasåliní, I, Book I, Part III, Ch V, 97). If one of these factors is lacking there is not a completed action. Akusala kamma which is a completed action is capable of producing an unhappy rebirth. Not only birth is the result of kamma, but also the experiences of pleasant or unpleasant objects through the senses, which are seeing, hearing, smelling tasting or experiencing tangible objects through the bodysense throughout life. Some kammas produce their results in the same life they were committed, some in the next life, some in later lives. --------- 1. Nånakkhanika literally means: working from a different time and this pertains to the fact that it produces result later on. 2. Kamma is one of the four factors which produces rúpas of the body. It produces rúpas such as the sense-bases, the heart-base and femininity or masculinity. ********* Nina. #75274 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 17, 2007 12:23 pm Subject: Some Questions Arising Out of Abhidhamma Study nilovg Hi Howard and Dieter, good questions. A challange to think of answers. Perhaps others may view the matter from different angles, that will be interesting. -------- h: 1) Does Abhidhamma consider rupas, cittas, and cetasikas just as "real" as nibbana, and if yes, what is the meaning of "real" in Abhidhamma? ------- N: realities, paramattha dhammas have characteristics that are unalterable. One can change their names, but the characteristics cannot change. Seeing is always seeing, no matter what name one gives to it. The truth of paramattha dhammas should be verified in daily life by being aware of their characteristics when they appear one at a time. Then only will we understand what the meaning is of real. There are four paramattha dhammas: citta, cetasika, rupa and nibbana, and all four are real. ---------- H: With regard to the conditioned dhammas, the Buddha has taught that "Form is like a glob of foam; feeling, a bubble; perception, a mirage; fabrications, a banana tree; consciousness, a magic trick — this has been taught by the Kinsman of the Sun. However you observe them, appropriately examine them, they're empty, void to whoever sees them appropriately." Now, nibbana, which is unarisen, unceasing, and unconditioned indeed sounds like "reality" to us. But whatever is like a glob of foam, a bubble, a mirage, hollow like a banana tree, and a magic trick does not sound very "real". So we wonder about lumping together the conditioned dhammas with nibbana as all "ultimates" let alone "realities". ------- N: Conditioned realities, the five khandhas, are like a glob of foam, etc. but they are real. They arise just for a moment and then fall away. That is their nature of dukkha. I quote from Kh Sujin's perfections: The four noble Truths should be realized and dukkha is the first one. If the true nature of conditioned realities is not penetrated nibbaana cannot be attained, the third noble truth. Also nibbana is anatta, it is void of a self. --------- 2) For us, any nama is a mental activity or quality - a mode of knowing or a concomitant to knowing. Literally it pertains to naming/ addressing, does it not? Why is nibbana classified as nama when it is said to experience no object? This strikes us as quite odd. Actually, it seems to us that nibbana would be best left unclassified, as neither nama nor rupa, and not in fact a thing at all in any sense comparable to dhammas. Classifying it at all, for example as nama, appears to constrain and categorize what is beyond conditions. Actually, we wonder *where* nibbana is classified as nama. Is there a source to trace this classification in the Tipitaka? Interestingly, the place in the Abhidhammata Sangaha where nibbana is discussed is the Compendium of Matter! In any case, nibbana does not seem to be classified in that work as nama. -------- N: The Expositor II, p. 501, gives explanations about nama. There is a word association with namati, bending. The four namakkhandhas bend towards an object, experience an object. Nibbana is a naama that does not experience an object. Thus, nibbana is the object and it causes lokuttara citta and cetasikas to bend towards itself. In the Compendium, first conditioned dhammas have been dealt with and at the end it describes nibbaana. That is why it comes after ruupa. In the Dhammasangani we find the word aruupa for nibbana (appendix 2, 1092). Aruupa can denote naama. Naama is frequently called aruupa in the co. Usually nibbaana is called the unconditioned element, asankhata dhaatu. Nina. #75275 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Aug 17, 2007 10:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: satipatthana as island of refuge upasaka_howard Hi, Swee Boon - In a message dated 8/17/07 12:32:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nidive@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > >What I have from Nyanatiloka is the following: > > > >>The 12 'bases' or 'sources' on which depend the mental processes, > >>consist of five physical sense-organs and consciousness, being > >>the six personal (ajjhattika) bases; and the six objects, the > >>so-called external (bahira) bases > > > >Now, of the 6 personal bases, and also of the 6 external bases, > >five are rupic. So, I did not understand why "contemplation on the > >six sense bases is contemplation on mental qualities." > > What you have quoted didn't actually say that 5 of the external bases > are rupic. It merely says that 5 of the internal bases are rupic. ------------------------------------------ Howard: I don't follow you. Are not the six external sense bases sights, sounds, tastes, odors, bodily sensations, and mind objects? And are not five of these rupas? Nyanatiloka gives for the external sense bases eye object, ear object, nose object, tongue object, and mind-door object. --------------------------------------- > > I agree that the eyes, the ears, the nose, the tongue and the skin > body are rupic. Contemplation of these 5 sense organs alone (without > considering their interaction with the respective external bases) > comes under contemplation on the 1st frame of reference in DN 22. --------------------------------------------- The external bases consist of five rupic bases and one namic base. ------------------------------------------- > > >As I see it, concepts are actually nothing at all. Only the > >dhammas upon which conceptualizing works are phenomena that arise > >and cease. When there are certain dhammas experienced, thinking > >projects "tree". When other dhammas are experienced, thinking > >projects "mountain". > > When seeing a beautiful sight, I am not interested in Rupa A or Rupa > B or Rupa C that makes up that image. I am interested in the image as > a whole. According to Abhidhamma, that image is a concept. ------------------------------------------ Howard: The entirety of what one is seeing at any time is the visible object, and it is not a concept - it is a single rupa. Many such (or a stream of such) serve as the material from which the mind constructs a lovely or not-so-lovely scene. But, indeed, we do attach tothat construct. ------------------------------------------- > > When hearing a melodious piece of music, I am not interested in Rupa > D or Rupa E or Rupa F that makes up that melody. I am interested in > the melody as a whole. According to Abhidhamma, that melody is a > concept. ------------------------------------------ Howard: I certainly do agree that what we frequently grasp onto, liking or disliking, is a mind-construct. We create castles-in-the-sky, we love them, and then, like lunatics, we move in! But think about what it is that ultimately we like or dislike. I maintain that ultimately it is pleasant or unpleasant bodily sensation! The beautiful scene constructed by the mind elicits pleasant bodily sensation that we attach to and delight in, and that we crave an increase in. This, I think, is one reason why bodily bodily sensation is such a central foundation for mindfulness. --------------------------------------- > > Now, which do you think has the most power to evoke attachment, > aversion &delusion in me? Rupa A, B, C, or the beautiful sight as a > whole? Rupa D, E, F, or the melodious piece of music as a whole? > > Do you need to guess? ------------------------------------------ Howard: I agree with you about grasping at concepts. But do consider what I said about bodily sensation. Also, consider what is the basis for the concept, rupas. ----------------------------------------- > > According to my interpretation, that beautiful sight as a whole (and > not Rupa A, B or C) is the external sense base corresponding to the > internal eye base. And that melodious piece of music as a whole (and > not Rupa D, E or F) is the external sense base corresponding to the > internal ear base. --------------------------------------- Howard: No, I don't think that is so. It is an element of the external MIND base. ------------------------------------- > > I think my interpretation is in line with the suttas where the Buddha > elaborates the arising of craving in dependence on each of the > internal &external sense bases. > > If "concepts" are nothing at all, how could it give rise to > attachment, aversion &delusion? Something that is non-existent > cannot possibly condition something to come into existence. It is > logically inconsistent. ------------------------------------------- Howard: How about dream lovers, Swee Boon? How about objects of imagination? ------------------------------------------- > > I find that dropping the Abhidhammic perspective on the "sense door > rupas" and "concepts" liberates the suttas. Well, figuratively. > > >However, seeing directly that every actual phenomenon lasts for no > >time at all, either ceasing "itself" or ceasing "as a > >thing-in-relation" due to other related phenomena arising and > >ceasing, one comes to know with an immediacy the radical > >impermanence and ungraspability of the all, and that does liberate. > > Is there any reason what you said above cannot be applied to "that > beautiful sight as a whole" and "that melodious piece of music as a > whole"? ------------------------------------------ Howard: When we look *though* concepts to their basis, and then see that it is ephemeral, and utterly lacking in self-existence, the whole house of cards folds. ---------------------------------------- > > Simply because they are 'nothing'? Isn't that just an intellectual > presumption based on Abhidhammic theory? > > >In fact, oppositely, "the river" is based on them. > > Not to be rude, but based on my understanding of your theory of > rupas, when taken to the extreme, a river can be a snake and a snake > can be a river depending on how one senses, taking into account one's > personal preferences/biasness/cravings/etc. --------------------------------------- Howard: Not at all. I do not imply that concepts are arbitrary. Generally they codify relationships that actually hold. -------------------------------------- > > Swee Boon > ==================== With metta, Howard #75276 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Aug 17, 2007 10:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Questions Arising Out of Abhidhamma Study upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 8/17/07 3:54:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard and Dieter, > good questions. A challange to think of answers. Perhaps others may > view the matter from different angles, that will be interesting. > -------- > h: 1) Does Abhidhamma consider rupas, cittas, and cetasikas just as > "real" > as nibbana, and if yes, what is the meaning of "real" in Abhidhamma? > ------- > N: realities, paramattha dhammas have characteristics that are > unalterable. One can change their names, but the characteristics > cannot change. Seeing is always seeing, no matter what name one gives > to it. The truth of paramattha dhammas should be verified in daily > life by being aware of their characteristics when they appear one at > a time. Then only will we understand what the meaning is of real. > There are four paramattha dhammas: citta, cetasika, rupa and nibbana, > and all four are real. ------------------------------------------- Howard: Nina, "tree" is always "tree", and "table" is always "table". But no two moments of hardness are quite the same in character, are they? If anything, it is the concepts, it seems to me, that have unalterable characteristics. So I don't find this explanation persuasive. In any case, are you saying that in Abhidhamma, 'real' means "inalterable in character"? What ceases, conditioned dhammas, lose not only their character but their very existence! With this definition, it seems to me that concepts become at least as "real" as conditioned dhammas. Also, are you saying that there is no greater reality to nibbana than to the radically impermanent, conditioned dhammas? I find that troubling. --------------------------------------------------- > ---------- > > H: With regard to the conditioned dhammas, the Buddha has taught that > "Form is like a glob of foam; feeling, a bubble; perception, a mirage; > fabrications, a banana tree; consciousness, a magic trick — this has > been taught by > the Kinsman of the Sun. However you observe them, appropriately > examine them, > they're empty, void to whoever sees them appropriately." > Now, nibbana, which is unarisen, unceasing, and unconditioned > indeed sounds like "reality" to us. But whatever is like a glob of > foam, a bubble, > a mirage, hollow like a banana tree, and a magic trick does not sound > very > "real". So we wonder about lumping together the conditioned dhammas > with nibbana > as all "ultimates" let alone "realities". > ------- > N: Conditioned realities, the five khandhas, are like a glob of foam, > etc. but they are real. They arise just for a moment and then fall > away. That is their nature of dukkha. ----------------------------------------- Howard: But, again - what does it mean to be "real"? Simply not imagined? I agree that none of them is imaginary. What about the sense for 'real' of "existing independently of thought"? ----------------------------------------- > I quote from Kh Sujin's perfections: > oppressing us in daily life, such as loss of possessions, blame, pain > etc. The noble Truth of dukkha is the truth that nothing is > permanent, that whatever arises such as seeing, hearing, thinking, > happiness or pain arises just for an extremely short moment and then > disappears. Knowing, “this is dukkhaâ€?, means, knowing that what > arises and falls away immediately is dukkha.> > The four noble Truths should be realized and dukkha is the first one. > If the true nature of conditioned realities is not penetrated > nibbaana cannot be attained, the third noble truth. > Also nibbana is anatta, it is void of a self. > --------- > > 2) For us, any nama is a mental activity or quality - a mode of > knowing or a concomitant to knowing. Literally it pertains to naming/ > addressing, > does it not? Why is nibbana classified as nama when it is said to > experience no > object? This strikes us as quite odd. Actually, it seems to us that > nibbana > would be best left unclassified, as neither nama nor rupa, and not in > fact a > thing at all in any sense comparable to dhammas. Classifying it at > all, for > example as nama, appears to constrain and categorize what is beyond > conditions. > Actually, we wonder *where* nibbana is classified as nama. Is > there a source to trace this classification in the Tipitaka? > Interestingly, the > place in the Abhidhammata Sangaha where nibbana is discussed is the > Compendium of > Matter! In any case, nibbana does not seem to be classified in that > work as > nama. > -------- > N: The Expositor II, p. 501, gives explanations about nama. There is > a word association with namati, bending. The four namakkhandhas bend > towards an object, experience an object. Nibbana is a naama that does > not experience an object. itself by means of the causal relation of the dominant influence of > object.> > Thus, nibbana is the object and it causes lokuttara citta and > cetasikas to bend towards itself. ------------------------------------------- Howard: Namakkhandhas bend towards an object. Nibbana does not. There for nibbana is not nama. That is straightforward. The other story is just mental contortion, it seems to me. Why not leave nibbana as sui generis. It is unique - one of a kind. ------------------------------------------ > In the Compendium, first conditioned dhammas have been dealt with and > at the end it describes nibbaana. That is why it comes after ruupa. > In the Dhammasangani we find the word aruupa for nibbana (appendix 2, > 1092). Aruupa can denote naama. Naama is frequently called aruupa in > the co. > Usually nibbaana is called the unconditioned element, asankhata dhaatu. > Nina. > ======================== Thank you for your kind reply, Nina. :-) With metta, Howard #75277 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Aug 17, 2007 4:21 pm Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge indriyabala Hi Sarah (and Scott), - We have been discussing (on and off) since the year 2002, but even today there still are some differences in regard to our Dhamma views. Sarah: As you've said before, it doesn't matter if we disagree about some of our conclusions. We all consider what we read carefully and the refs and discussion is helpful. T: Agreed. Actually, I like what you (and Nina) always say, "only panna can know at any given moment". Now, since 'panna' is a conditioned dhamma that rises and falls independently of our effort, aren't we hopeless in trying (with an effort to condition samvara and panna) to maintain peaceful discussion (kusala) all the time? ..... >T: I will continue to discuss the Dhamma only when the person(or persons) on the other side says "very helpful". Otherwise, why continue? ... S: Well, it's possible that one might be saying something very helpful which the person doesn't appreciate at the time but which proves to be helpful later, wouldn't you agree? I think it all depends on our intentions. Better not to have any expectations of any particular response:). T: Thank you for the correct interpretation of the short question, "Otherwise, why continue?". Scott thought I was bothered. I know that most readers would probably think so, but I only wanted to use it as the leading question to the next issue : why discuss the Dhamma if (there is the Dhamma, but) there is no one discussing? ........ S: !! Because cittas discuss and some cittas need to be developed and other cittas exposed for what they are! T: Cittas don't have eyes, hands, and brain to read, think, and type on a computer keyboard. ....... S: Thanks, Tep. "Very Helpful"!!! Thank you for giving the kid the cookie it wanted. {:-) Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > --- Tep Sastri wrote: > > > > > Hi Sarah, - > > > > I have observed (and appreciated) how you discuss the Dhamma without > > getting involved as if "there is discussion but there is no one > > discussing". #75279 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Aug 17, 2007 5:12 pm Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge indriyabala Hi Sarah, When I was a kid living in Thailand, there weren't many good Thai movies. So I had to watch Hollywood movies most of the time, even though I did not know the language. Fortunately, the movie theater provided Thai subtitle on the bottom of the screen. Today the memory flashed back because of your providing "subtitle" of the Abhidhamma for me whose Dhamma language is "conventional". >T: That realization happens in a single moment then disappears along with the citta and associated cetasikas. If that deduction is correct, what about ruupa and nibbana in that moment-- do they disappear too ? S: At any moment in this sense-realm, there are always groups of rupas arising and falling away, but unless a rupa is the object of the citta, they are not experienced. So at the moment of enlightenment, nibbana is the object, so no rupa is known, but without the support of the groups of rupas, there could be no citta arising. The 'basis' for all mind-door cittas (inc. the lokuttara cittas) is the haddaya-vatthu, the heart-base. So at that moment, the decad of the heart-base (hadayadasaka kalaapa) which includes the 8 inseperable rupas, plus heart-base, plus life- faculty, must be present. This may be quite an important area to pursue if you have further comments or questions. T: No further questions since your subtitle is very clear, Sarah. I also recall having a discussion with Nina on the "heart-base" subject once. Thank you very much. Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > --- Tep Sastri wrote: > > S: No matter what the prior experiences, whether jhana experiences or > > any other states, whatever appears has to be known as being > > conditioned, impermanent, unsatisfactory and anatta in order for the > > realization of the unconditioned state and the eradication of > > defilements. > > > > T: A proposed deduction: That realization happens in a single moment #75281 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 17, 2007 12:10 pm Subject: not hard to accept. nilovg Dear Scott, -------- S: Let me see if I've understood so far. Paccavekkhana is the term describing a function of citta. Since citta is variegated then paccavekkhana can be of different kinds. The mental factor which is central in the process would be manaasikaara, which can either be yoniso or ayoniso. The reviewing, I'm supposing, can occur of one moment or conditions might be such that a series of moments are of the same nature. ------- N: The mental factor which is central in the process would be pa~n~naa, understanding, of different levels, depending on what is considered or reviewed. Manaasikaara has different meanings. The cetasika arises with each citta. We speak of yoniso or ayoniso when referring to the sereis of javanacittas which may be kusala or akusala. -------- S: When reading the sutta, it is tempting to take the statement of the Buddha as a simple instruction. I don't think that it is reflection is I just decide to reflect and start thinking about things, but it will seem to me as if it is reflection and I'll be tempted to say, 'This is easy, this is a basic instruction by the Buddha of a very basic practise I can do.' ------ N: The Buddha uses vohara, conventional speech, but as a means to convey a deeper truth. It was a reminder to Rahula not to be forgetful. It is so easy to misrepresent suttas. ------- S: What are the objects of this reflection? Not concepts or thoughts about concepts? ------- N: No. Then anybody can do it, we do not need the teachings. Anybody can say: I think before I take action or speak. And can he, is he on time? I am afraid not. ------ S: For example, as I was telling Andrew, take the day a child left the bathroom door open while I was cleaning and the cat knocked the litter box off its perch on the toilet all over the floor..... Now I can also recall how it also arose that this anger became object for a moment and was 'noted' as anger. And I can now recall how this lead to a thinking about things and Dhamma and how the angry man is ugly, etc., a subsidence of anger and a general playing it cool, putting it into perspective, and just cleaning the floor again. ----- N: I like your example, so human. The anger of that moment has long fallen away. We can make the story longer and longer by thinking, and it is so common, we all do. ------ S: What, if any, of the above would be paccavekkhana? How would the whole notion of na-vattaba fit here? In other words, again, what is the object of paccavekkhana? The reflection, in this case, is of a past 'event.' This would be conceptual since it involves ideas about persons and animals and things. The reflection includes a wordless 'memory' of the quality of dosa-mula-citta and its subsidence (not of the moment, but over time). ----- N: I would not call this paccavekkhana, rather thinking of what is past already. As you say: past events, thus, stories. Navattabba, that would make things complicated. I find that a subject that is too difficult for me. You thought of past dosa, but that is not as clear as the characteristic of dosa when it appears. But now you may be thinking with dosa about past dosa and then there is an opportunity again to know its characteristic. Whatever appears is good enough as object of awareness and understanding. I think of the sutta one auspicious night: do not hanker after the past, nor think of what has not come yet. Be aware of the present moment, we do not know how long we live. Nina. #75282 From: "m. nease" Date: Fri Aug 17, 2007 6:13 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Asoka, Ch 1, no 6. m_nease Hi Tep, Thanks very much for this-- ----- Original Message ----- From: Tep Sastri To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 4:36 PM Subject: [dsg] Re: Asoka, Ch 1, no 6. Hi Mike, - You asked Nina about perception of a dhamma, not perception about pa.n.natti. >Mike: So the 'perception of impermance' would be perception of a dhamma, not pa.n.natti; and this does seem like insight, rather than a particular khandha, doesn't it? T: I think "perception aggregate" includes all dhamma, ultimate realities and pa.n.natti. Yes, I think it must. "Whatever perception is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: that is called the aggregate of perception." SN 22.48 Great citation, thanks. Of course, as a 'universal', it must be present when either (dhamma or pa.n.natti) is the object of any citta. I think I'll leave sa~n~naa alone for now--thanks for you kind help. mike #75283 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Aug 17, 2007 6:32 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Asoka, Ch 1, no 6. indriyabala Hi Mike - [My posts are becoming shorter (like yours)!] M: Of course, as a 'universal', it must be present when either (dhamma or pa.n.natti) is the object of any citta. T: Yes. Now I am interested to hear from Nina too. ........... M: thanks for your kind help. T: You're welcome. Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" wrote: > > Hi Tep, > (snipped) > > I think I'll leave sa~n~naa alone for now--thanks for you kind help. > > mike > #75284 From: "tom" Date: Fri Aug 17, 2007 5:39 pm Subject: Re: Some Questions Arising Out of Abhidhamma Study zorroelbueno --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > Maybe nibbana is called nama because, after all, it is a name.Give something a name and you give it a form.What is the form of nibbana? Whatever you think of when you say the name. The reality is so far beyond any concept that it has no connection with any of the nibbana- ideas that the name nibbana conjures up. Z > ************************************** #75285 From: "Phil" Date: Fri Aug 17, 2007 10:58 pm Subject: Hi from Phil philofillet Hi all Back in Japan after a very nice holiday back home. I found an Ajahn Chah booklet amoungst my old books, and read with more understanding than the first time 15 years ago. (I don't remember, but I assume that I picked it up when I was in Thailand back then.) I like his approach, very simple and straightforward. Mind follows moods and emotions, gets entangled with them, identifies with them, we suffer because we "ascribe value to things." The breath, whether overly simplified as a meditation object or not (it probably is) provides a provisional refuge. Thangs can only go deeper when there is that kind of provisional refuge to help overcome the grossest form of the defilements. (My words - and experience - not his.) I thought a lot about something Jon said - "I hope you will come to see that satipatthana is the greatest treasure we can have" - or something like that. I did feel every day that althought I was surrounded with friends and family at a beautiful summer place I've loved for so long, and although - most importantly - I saw Naomi positively thriving in Canada, the most important thing of all, the greatest treasure of all was the Dhamma. I don't know quite yet about satipatthana, because if satipatthana is defined as awareness of paramattha dhammas, no there is not that for me. I can understand aawareness of mental states, moods, but not paramattha dhammas. But I will continue to reflect on that and I thank Jon for that helpful statement. Lots of reflection on sense door impressions, and lovely concepts that form from them, how all the lovely places I went (Saltspring Island off the coast of BC, and our summer place in the Lower St. Lawrence in Quebec) were so rich with physical beauty, soft skies, seas, fields full of wildflowers, glorious sunsets and so on and so on, and I couldn't help contrasting them with the concrete, toxic, earthquake deathtrap of a building I teach in every Thursday, Saturday and Sunday, and of course there was reflection on how it is the same wherever I am, all visible object that is contacted and so on. The wisdom involved in being able to truly enjoy beautiful places and pleasant sense experiences on one hand, and remembering their essential emptiness at the same time, in a way that perhaps makes one a little more dubious or distrusting of beauty, but also allows one to enjoy it with loved ones. Now back in Japan with jetlag and it's brutally hot and I don't feel good, but still just seeing, hearting, tasting touching etc. Also reflection on parents, of course, the importance the Buddha placed on our gratitude to them. I won't go into family matters on line, but much of interest, most of it very heartwarming. And how good it was to be away from the internet! I' so addicted, you see. I made some good progress on a novel for young folk that has been stagnating because of the way the internet drains my energy. Needless to say, I vowed to try a new break from the internet for awhile, to keep the momentum going, so I won't be hanging out here for a few months at least, but wanted to touch ground. I saw a lot of old friends (amazingly ran into a very close friend I hadn't seen for 15 years in the lineup to check in on the way back home) and it gave me pause to reflect on DSG, how there are already old friends here, people I've never met but who are most definitely very important friends. Kind of neat. Anyways, hope you're all well and talk to you again in a couple of months or so. Metta, Phil #75286 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Aug 18, 2007 12:32 am Subject: Re: Hi from Phil buddhatrue Hi Phil, Good to see a post from you. I have also just returned to Taiwan and I am jet-lagged a bit; plus a hurricane is hitting this weekend. Anyway, glad you had a nice trip to Canada. It probably is a shock going from Canada back to Tokyo. I saw this video from a Tokyo wave pool and I just couldn't believe my eyes!: http://video.yahoo.com/video/play?vid=957342&cache=1 Wonder if one could practice satipatthana or mindfulness of breathing in that type of situation?? ;-)) Metta, James ps. Hope to come visit you and Naomi in Tokyo next year! :-) #75287 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Aug 18, 2007 2:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Making Comparisons (... Re: Proper Training as a Co...) sarahprocter... Dear Nina (& Han), --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > What is interesting is that there was a change in attitude towards > tradition and teachers at that time. Especially in Asia people would > follow teachers and not check sources themselves. Also, authors at > that time did not find it necessary to mention their sources. People > would listen to teachers and keep silent, not speaking. Perhaps Han > (where is he, I miss him for so long) can tell us about Myanmar > tradition. ... S: Just to mention briefly that Han told me he'd had an accident, a fall, and has been a little poorly since, but having wise reflection on Dhamma including jaara (old age)! He'll say more if he wishes. He's considering a new series which would make you very happy, but again, I'll leave it to him to introduce in his own time, when he feels well enough. Metta, Sarah ========== #75288 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Aug 18, 2007 2:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hi from Phil sarahprocter... Hi Phil (& all in the p.s.), A great report - so nice to hear from you on your return. Sounds like you and Naomi (and your family) had a lovely trip. Good to read all your dhamma reflections.... Drop by with more whenever you have time/inclination... metta, Sarah p.s Interesting, the reports about A.Chah-style temples and his teachings. You probably read the report about Kom. In a way, they are very different from my impressions when I met and discussed Dhamma with A.Chah in London when he was staying with A.Sumedho who had recently arrived at the Hampstead vihara. There was so much friendliness, light laughter and good humour. Nothing too serious, no mention of breath, no suggestion of not being 'out in society' for bhikkhus. Very normal. I was introduced as having a keen interest in Abhidhamma and of studying with A.Sujin and that was all fine - no lecture about any other practice, just more good-humoured remarks. (Though later, I heard from a friend, that he had a funny story about our meeting:-)) My story is about the hilarious incident of the dana I had painstakingly prepared. Cooking is not my forte at all, but I had prepared a curry lunch and apple crumble and custard for desert. A.Chah just indicated for it to all be put into his bowl together - all mixed up. When they saw the shock on my face as the custard was mixed with the curry, A.Chah laughed and laughed in an infectious way. So did A.Sumedho and I then! A good lesson on attachment to tastes and gifts and food for me. ========== --- Phil wrote: > > > Hi all > > Back in Japan after a very nice holiday back home. #75289 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Aug 18, 2007 2:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] re: not hard to accept. sarahprocter... Dear Scott, --- Scott Duncan wrote: > Scott: See the post I wrote to Nina regarding Raahula. This is still > what I'm trying to sort out: Is there mundane paccavekkhana? You > suggest that there is. ... S: Yes, definitely. ... > > Sammohavinodanii 642: > Reflection is understanding. It reflects upon that quality. But > ignorance when it arises does not allow it to reflect, thus it is > non-reflection (appaccavekkhana). 'It has nothing that is clarified, > and it is itself action done without reflecting' is non-clarification > (appaccakkha-kamma)." .... S: The section is under ignorance. When there's ignorance, no wise consideration, reflection, understanding at any level. .... > > Sammohavinodanii 1310,1320" > > "Furthermore, seven things lead to the arising of the > investigation-of-states enlightenment factor: (1) asking questions, > (2) the act of cleansing the basis, (3) imparting of evenness to the > five faculties, (4) avoidance of persons of no understanding, (5) > cultivation of persons with understanding, (6) reviewing the field for > the excercise of profound knowledge, (7) being resolved thereon. > > "(6) 'Reviewing the field for the exercise of profound knowledge' > means reviewing in various ways by means of profound understanding > which occurs in respect of the profound aggregates, etc." .... S: This is referring to 'profound understanding' as it says of the khandhas as condition for panna as an enlightenment factor. Not just thinking. So as we all agree now, I think, paccavekkhana is used in different contexts to refer to different kinds of considering and understanding. If it refers to ~naana, clearly it refers to paccavekkhana ~naana, arising after lokuttara cittas (or jhana cittas in context). Otherwise, we need to consider the context. To Raahula, as I understand it, he is being encouraged to develop satipatthana - understanding what is good and bad and all other dhammas. .... > Scott: In the midst of thinking and clinging to emotion and stories, > as you note, you suggest that satipa.t.thaana can arise. Is there > reveiwing (paccavekkhana) in the mix, as far as your experience went? ... S: Depends what you mean hear by paccavekkhana! Yes, of course there can be wise considering and reflecting with understanding any time at all. As far as the experience went - it's gone, so no point in thinking about or trying to analyse what happened. Panna can only know the present dhammas appearing after all. Otherwise, as I see it, it just conditions more attachment, more stories and speculation about the past good or bad. Pls let me know if I missed your point. I like the way you really study and consider these terms. Metta, Sarah ============ #75290 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Aug 18, 2007 3:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Howard As A Good Friend Of Theravada -- Re: Proper Training as a Co... sarahprocter... Hi Howard, --- upasaka@... wrote: > Howard: > I think that theory guides the practice as a rudder guides the > ship. > --------------------------------------------- ... S: Yes. Right theory leads to right practice and wrong theory leads to wrong practice. Of course, the important question then is: what is right theory? Clearly it's not just a question of reciting a sutta or chapter of Abhidhamma. Any comments? .... > > p.s I see you left your name and the subject heading, so I'm following > > your example:). > > -------------------------------------- > Howard: > I left it, because I'm not going to start changing all posts that > > still have that remnant. (Hardly worth the effort! LOLOL!) > Thanks for mentioning it, Sarah. :-) .... S: Well some people object when others change subject headings or don't use the reply button because then the threads get 'broken' on the home-page or in g-mail. So, I usually leave them....but you're welcome to change them! Metta, Sarah ========= #75291 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Aug 18, 2007 3:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: satipatthana as island of refuge sarahprocter... Hi Tep (Han & all), I don't think I replied to yr message #75093 --- Tep Sastri wrote: > S: Why does saying strongly "anatta means no one practises" > imply "there is no 'patipatti', or there is no 'patipada'"? > > T: Because if there is no one practices the "sekha patipada", then > there is no arahant. The one who practices exists in the real world > where '... there are priests & contemplatives who, faring rightly & > practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having > directly known & realized it for themselves.' It is a wrong view to > deny that (see MN 117). > ..... S: It is a wrong view to deny rebirths. Are you sure it's a wrong view to deny that in truth and reality there is a person who practices.... What would anatta mean in this context? ... > S: So why do we read about anatta at all or about 'suffering, but no > sufferer' etc? Why is kamma said to refer to cetana, a mental state, > and vipaka to more cittas and mental states? I'm sorry if I'm being > dense, but I don't follow your logic here, Tep. > > T: First, I have to say that what I have written so far is not based > on my logic, Sarah. Indeed, it is based on the Biddha's words of > great wisdom. > If there was "no sufferer", then there would be no motivation for > people like you and me to find the way to eradicate suffering -- i.e. > by practicing according to the Noble Eightfold Path. ... S: Is not any understanding of suffering a motivation for more understanding to develop? I'd be interested to hear Han's or other people's comments here as I think I'll just be repeating myself or your recent discussion with Scott. As he pointed out, whether or not there is any understanding of paramattha dhammas or not, the dhammas, the truths are the same. Remember the sutta in AN about whether or not a Tathagatha appears, this is so? Thx for your further *very helpful* comments, Tep:-)) Metta, Sarah The "no > sufferer" is the perspective of the 'ariya puggala' who has complete > detachment from 'naama & ruupa'. We should not confuse the real world > that we see with the paramattha world that the arahants see -- both > worlds are real; the confusion is caused by having a confused > perspective of the non-ariyans. #75292 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Aug 18, 2007 3:33 am Subject: Some Questions Arising Out of Abhidhamma Study nilovg Hi Howard and Dieter, ------- H: Nina, "tree" is always "tree", and "table" is always "table". But no two moments of hardness are quite the same in character, are they? If anything, it is the concepts, it seems to me, that have unalterable characteristics. So I don't find this explanation persuasive. In any case, are you saying that in Abhidhamma, 'real' means "inalterable in character"? ------- N: What is reality, what is truth? The Buddha Dhamma gives an answer different from all philosophies. Seeing now is reality, it has its own inalterable characteristic that can be directly experienced when it appears. Seeing cannot be changed into hearing or thinking. It experiences visible object through the eyesense. Visible object that appears now is reality, it is the reality which can be experienced through the eyesense. It is different from what we used to think. We used to believe that we saw people and trees. Ignorance and wrong view obstruct seeing the truth. Hardness has different intensities, it can appear as hardness or softness. It is the element of earth or solidity that can be experienced through the bodysense. It cannot be changed into visible object, it has its own characteristic. Concepts seem real, but they are illusions that trick us. They are not realities. I quote from my Rupas: ---------- H: What ceases, conditioned dhammas, lose not only their character but their very existence! With this definition, it seems to me that concepts become at least as "real" as conditioned dhammas. Also, are you saying that there is no greater reality to nibbana than to the radically impermanent, conditioned dhammas? I find that troubling. --------------------------------------------------- N: Seeing arises because of different conditions: it is dependent on visible object and eyesense, it is vipaakacitta produced by kamma. What arises dependent on conditions has to fall away, but when sati of the level of satipatthana arises, it can be proved that seeing appearing now is reality. When thinking with attachment arises, seeing cannot be known. Then attachment is a fit object to be understood as a reality. Attachment has its own inalterable characteristic, it cannot be changed into aversion. Conditioned dhammas are real and the unconditioned dhamma is real. We cannot compare the unconditioned dhamma with the conditioned dhammas. We can only speculate about the unconditioned dhamma. > ---------- >----------------------------------------- Howard: But, again - what does it mean to be "real"? Simply not imagined? I agree that none of them is imaginary. What about the sense for 'real' of "existing independently of thought"? ----------------------------------------- N: Reality can only be known and penetrated by pa~n~naa when it arises. Reality pertains to what arises at this very moment. ---------- > N: The Expositor II, p. 501, gives explanations about nama. There is > a word association with namati, bending. The four namakkhandhas bend > towards an object, experience an object. Nibbana is a naama that does > not experience an object. itself by means of the causal relation of the dominant influence of > object.> > Thus, nibbana is the object and it causes lokuttara citta and > cetasikas to bend towards itself. ------------------------------------------- Howard: Namakkhandhas bend towards an object. Nibbana does not. There for nibbana is not nama. That is straightforward. The other story is just mental contortion, it seems to me. Why not leave nibbana as sui generis. It is unique - one of a kind. ------------------------------------------ N: I find that it makes sense to understand that nibbaana is naama. It is not rupa: it has no shape or form, it is not a place. Some people think of a place where one goes to. I cannot add anything else to this explanation. Nibbaana has to be experienced so that one understands more. -------- Nina. #75293 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Aug 18, 2007 3:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Making Comparisons (... Re: Proper Training as a Co...) nilovg Dear Han, O, I sympathyze so much with you. Many weeks ago I also had a bad fall (we are oldies, aren't we?) and a lot of pain. It happened at home, when grasping for a book. Had to go to the therapist who helped, but when one leg was cured the other started. What helped most was our eight day walking vacation near the Meuse. Now we are in for other trouble: Lodewijk's heart is irregular and today we returned suddenly after having planned a long walk. He could not make the walk. He did not feel good and we may even have to cancel India. We see what the Doctor says. Yes, old age, and conditions. There is seeing in India but also here, still such a lot to be learned. Anyway your suggestion really keeps me happy. The more I read in that book (also to quote for others) the more I think: this is so beautifully said and so true. Did you have a lot of pain and therapy? Nina. Op 18-aug-2007, om 11:01 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > Just to mention briefly that Han told me he'd had an accident, a fall, > and has been a little poorly since, but having wise reflection on > Dhamma > including jaara (old age)! He'll say more if he wishes. #75294 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Aug 18, 2007 3:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Asoka, Ch 1, no 6. nilovg Dear Tep, anything I can do? Nina. Op 18-aug-2007, om 3:32 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > Of course, as a 'universal', it must be present when either > (dhamma or pa.n.natti) is the object of any citta. > > T: Yes. Now I am interested to hear from Nina too. #75295 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Aug 18, 2007 3:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: satipatthana as island of refuge sarahprocter... Hi Swee Boon (& Howard), --- nidive wrote: > It's actually from DN 22 under Mental Qualities. > > There, it is said the fetters that arises in dependence on the > internal & external sense media should be contemplated. ... S: Yes, under 'dhammaanupassanaa', there is the understanding of the hindrances, the khandhas, the ayatanas ('internal and external sense media') and the fetters based on them. Just to be clear, the ayatanas refer to eye and visible object, ear and sound.......Mind (i.e.cittas) and mind-objects (i.e.those paramattha dhammas only appearing through the mind-door. These are cetasikas, subtle rupas and nibbana.) Without the 'coming together' of the ayatanas, there would be no fetters (samyojanas) arising, based on them. ... > Since it is the fetter that should be abandoned, does it matter > whether what one sees, hears, smells, tastes, touches and thinks are > paramattha dhammas or concepts? To me, whether paramattha dhammas or > concepts, they are all impermanent. ... S: Good question. As Howard said, the concepts are not real and therefore are not impermanent. I think it is very important to distinguish what is real and what is not. Otherwise, we'll always be swayed and influenced by our imagination, our stories and ideas based on the realities. I liked Howard's expression: "We create casteles-in-the-sky, we love them, and then, like lunatics, we move in!" The worst part is that most the time, we have no idea at all that they are mere fantasies. .... > The fault lies not in the external sense media, for if it were, there > would be no arahants! ... S: Exactly - the fault lies in the ignorance and craving... .... > I also said to Howard that contemplation on rupas is limited to rupas > of the body. By this, I do not mean body-door rupas. > > I mean the rupas that make up our physical bodies as opposed to the > rupas that make up a river. ... S: As I think Howard said, if it's visible object which is seen, it doesn't matter 'where' it is. Same for sounds and so on. It's true that a lot of emphasis is given to the rupas of the body? Why? Because of the great importance we give them. They follow us around all the time and there's always attachment to them. ... > In DN 22, the first frame of reference refers to the contemplation of > rupas that make up our physical bodies. > > No where else in DN 22 does the Buddha mention the contemplation of > rupas of external objects such as a river. ... S: We read about developing understanding whilst walking, eating and so on - all kinds of rupas appearing. Under the section above, 'dhammaanupassanaa', the khandhas are included. This includes all kinds of rupas - internal, external, high, low, gross, subtle etc. .... > > In SN 22.79 by Thanissaro: > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.079.than.html > > § 17. "And why do you call it 'form' (rupa)? Because it is afflicted > (ruppati), thus it is called 'form.' Afflicted with what? With cold & > heat & hunger & thirst, with the touch of flies, mosquitoes, wind, > sun, & reptiles. Because it is afflicted, it is called form. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Don't you find it interesting that 'rupa' is a play on 'ruppati'? > > Now, a river is not said to be 'afflicted' according to the above > criteria of hunger & thirst in particular. ... S: No, because a river is a concept, not a rupa! But all rupas are afflicted (ruppati). For example, the earth element, the water element and so on are afflicted in various ways. .. > But your physical body and my physical body are! ... S: What about the rupas making up the computer? Hairs and dust and crumbs fall on them....they wear down, break down.....just like the body! Good talking to you and I liked your further discussions together. Metta, Sarah ========= #75296 From: han tun Date: Sat Aug 18, 2007 4:21 am Subject: Perfections Corner (01) hantun1 Dear All, I have recently come across a book, “The Perfections leading to Enlightenment” by Sujin Boriharnwanaket and translated by Nina van Gorkom. I find it useful, and I would like to share it with other members. I will post some chapters from the book in installments. Questions, comments, and different opinions are welcome. ********** Introduction The Ten Perfections in Daily Life The ten perfections, paaramiis, are most important as conditions for the complete eradication of defilements. We should develop every kind of kusala for pa~n~naa to arise which can eradicate all defilements, stage by stage. Kusala is not always a perfection, and, thus, it is necessary to understand correctly when kusala is a perfection and when it is not. Since the ten perfections are essential for the eradication of defilements we should study them, understand their significance and further develop them. The ten perfections are the following: generosity, daana, morality, siila, renunciation, nekkhamma, wisdom, pa~n~naa, energy, viriya, patience, khanti, truthfulness, sacca, determination, adi.t.thaana, loving-kindness, mettaa, equanimity, upekkhaa. It is beneficial carefully to study the ten perfections so that we can consider and investigate for ourselves which perfections have not been sufficiently accumulated. We should develop all of them and in this way they can be conditions for the realization of the four noble Truths. If someone’s goal is the arising of sati that is aware of the characteristics of realities as they naturally appear in daily life, but if he does not take into consideration the development of the perfections, he will notice that time and again he is overcome by akusala kamma. There are more conditions for the arising of akusala kamma than for the arising of kusala kamma. To be continued. metta, Han #75297 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Aug 18, 2007 1:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Some Questions Arising Out of Abhidhamma Study upasaka_howard Hi, Z - In a message dated 8/18/07 12:44:11 AM Eastern Daylight Time, zorrobueno@... writes: > > Maybe nibbana is called nama because, after all, it is a name.Give > something a name and you give it a form.What is the form of nibbana? > Whatever you think of when you say the name. The reality is so far > beyond any concept that it has no connection with any of the nibbana- > ideas that the name nibbana conjures up. Z ====================== I get your point: All that we folks "have" of nibbana is a name. :-) With metta, Howard #75298 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Aug 18, 2007 1:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hi from Phil upasaka_howard Hi, Phil (and Jon) - In a message dated 8/18/07 1:59:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time, philco777@... writes: > I can understand > aawareness of mental states, moods, but not paramattha dhammas. ========================= Good to hear from you again, Phil! :-) If by 'awareness' you mean "pa~n~na", then I join you in having little of it - for paramattha dhammas or anything else! But if you are talking "merely" of consciousness or recognition when you say "awareness", here's how I think about the matter of our knowing of paramatha dhammas: If, in looking for "paramattha dhammas" we look for "little things" of their own, with well-delineated boundaries and static over time (or taking no time at all), I think we are unlikely to find such things, and I *suspect* that none such exist. But at the moment we encounter hardness, or warmth, or sound, or a sight, or fear, or understanding, or feeling-as-unpleasant, or liking, or thinking, at that time we know a paramattha dhamma. The paramattha dhammas are not some mysterious elements of a Dhammic atomic theory, as I see the matter, but are simply what we can experience directly, without benefit of thought or conceptualization. The paramattha dhammas are the fibers/threads of our lives, and the pa~n~nati are the fabric we weave from them. With metta, Howard #75299 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Sat Aug 18, 2007 5:36 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (64) nichiconn Dear Friends, 11. Dvaadasakanipaato 1. Uppalava.n.naatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa part 21 227. "Pubbenivaasa.m jaanaami, dibbacakkhu.m visodhita.m; cetoparicca~naa.na~nca, sotadhaatu visodhitaa. 228. "Iddhiipi me sacchikataa, patto me aasavakkhayo; cha.labhi~n~naa sacchikataa, kata.m buddhassa saasana.m". "Pubbenivaasan"ti-aadikaa dve gaathaa attano adhigatavisesa.m paccavekkhitvaa piitisomanassajaataaya theriyaa vuttaa. Tattha cetoparicca~naa.nanti cetopariya~naa.na.m, sacchikata.m, pattanti vaa sambandho. 229. "Iddhiyaa abhinimmitvaa, caturassa.m ratha.m aha.m; buddhassa paade vanditvaa, lokanaathassa taadino"ti.- Aya.m gaathaa yadaa bhagavaa yamakapaa.tihaariya.m kaatu.m ka.n.dambarukkhamuula.m upasa"nkami, tadaa aya.m therii evaruupa.m ratha.m nimminitvaa tena saddhi.m satthu santika.m gantvaa bhagavaa "aha.m paa.tihaariya.m karissaami titthiyamadanimmathanaaya, anujaanaathaa"ti vatvaa satthu santike a.t.thaasi, ta.m saddhaaya vuttaa. Tattha iddhiyaa abhinimmitvaa, caturassa.m ratha.m ahanti catuuhi assehi yojita.m ratha.m iddhiyaa abhinimminitvaa buddhassa bhagavato paade vanditvaa ekamanta.m a.t.thaasinti adhippaayo. RD: II. Joyful and happy, she meditates on the distinction she has won: How erst I lived I know, the Heavenly Eye, Purview celestial, have I clarified; Clear too the inward life that others lead; Clear too I hear the sounds ineffable; (227) Powers supernormal have I made mine own; And won immunity from deadly Drugs. These, the six higher knowledges are mine. Accomplished is the bidding of the Lord. (228) III. She works a marvel before the Buddha with his consent, and records the same: With chariot and horses four I came, Made visible by supernormal power, And worshipped, wonder working, at his feet, The wondrous Buddha, Sovran of the world. (229) PRUITT: [227. I know that I have lived before. I have purifed the divine eye, and there is knowledge of the state of mind of others. I have purified the ear element. 228. I have realized supernormal power too. I have attained the annihilation of the taints. I have realized these six direct knowledges. I have done the Buddha's teaching.] * *Be and Ce omit these two verses, perhaps because they are the same as vv. 70cd-71. {A certain (unknown) therii / Va.d.dhesii, Sisters 38} 227. The two verses begining [I know] that I have lived before were spoken by the therii when joy and gladness arose as she looked over the distinction she had attained. There, knowledge of the state ofmind of others (ceto-paricca-~naa.na.m) means: the knowledge of penetration of minds (ceto-pariya-~naa.na.m) has been realized, attained; that is the connection.* *For "I know that I have lived before," cf. the commentary above on "who knows that he has lived before in v.63 (p.97) {Bhaddaa Kaapilaanii, Sisters 37}. The commentary on "knowledge ... others" in v.71 (p.100) {Sisters 38} is much the same as here. See the notes with v.71 for other references for vv.227, 228. {Mostly to Th-a}. 229. I fashioned a four-horsed chariot by supernormal power [and] paid homage at the feet of the Buddha, the Protector of the World, the Unique One. When the Blessed One when to the foot of the mango tree to perform the Twin Marvel, this theri fashioned such a chariot and went with it to the Teacher. She said, "O Blessed One, give me permission and I will perform a marvel in order to crush the pride of the members of other sects."* And she stood there in the Teacher's presence. This verse was spoken in connection with that. *Contrary to what KRN says in EV II, p. 103, the Buddha does not give her permission to perform a marvel. She is asking to perform a different marvel than creating the chariot. 229. There, I fashioned a four-horsed (catur-assa.m) chariot by supernormal power means: I fashioned a chariot yoked to four horses (catuuhi assehi) by supernormal power [and] paid homage at the feet of the Buddha, of the Blessed One, and I stood to one side; that is the meaning. ===tbc, connie. #75300 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Aug 18, 2007 6:25 am Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge indriyabala Hi Sarah, - >Sarah: Thx for your further *very helpful* comments, Tep:-)) T: Even though we may have revisited the same (or related) issues several times so far, if what I think I am "seeing" is not an imagination/delusion, the issues' volatility is decreasing. In other words, we seem to understand each other quicker than before, and we are able to express what we think more accurately too. And that is what I consider as being "very useful/helpful". ............... > T: First, I have to say that what I have written so far is not based on my logic, Sarah. Indeed, it is based on the Buddha's words of great wisdom. > If there was "no sufferer", then there would be no motivation for people like you and me to find the way to eradicate suffering -- i.e. by practicing according to the Noble Eightfold Path. ... S: Is not any understanding of suffering a motivation for more understanding to develop? T: Yes, it is the understanding of the one who suffers now (although there is no thought : that is my suffering, this is me, that is my self). If there is no one who suffers, then there is no motivation to listen to the Dhamma. And if there is no good listening, then there is no 'nutriment' for 'yoniso-manasikara' to develop, and so on, as in AN 10.61. .......... S: Remember the sutta in AN about whether or not a Tathagatha appears, this is so? T: Please elaborate a bit more to help me recall it. But I might not have seen it. .......... S: I'd be interested to hear Han's or other people's comments here as I think I'll just be repeating myself or your recent discussion with Scott. T: Yes. The issue we are discussing is becoming bland like a piece of chewing gum that has been chewed so many times. So you have a good reason to be bored. {:-] Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Tep (Han & all), > > I don't think I replied to yr message #75093 > #75301 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Aug 18, 2007 6:35 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Asoka, Ch 1, no 6. indriyabala Dear Nina and Mike - --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Tep, > anything I can do? > Nina. > Op 18-aug-2007, om 3:32 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > > > Of course, as a 'universal', it must be present when either > > (dhamma or pa.n.natti) is the object of any citta. > > > > T: Yes. Now I am interested to hear from Nina too. > > I am interested to read your reply to what Mike asked in # 75282, if you have time to consider. But if you've already answered him, then I will go find that message myself. >Mike: So the 'perception of impermance' would be perception of a dhamma, not pa.n.natti; and this does seem like insight, rather than a particular khandha, doesn't it? Tep === #75302 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Aug 18, 2007 6:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hi from Phil nilovg Dear Phil, very happy to hear from you. I am glad Naomi liked Canada. Op 18-aug-2007, om 7:58 heeft Phil het volgende geschreven: > I can understand > aawareness of mental states, moods, but not paramattha dhammas. But > I will continue to reflect on that and I thank Jon for that helpful > statement. -------- N: Mental states are paramatthas, but no need to call them that way. Your reflections on dhamma are excellent, you certainly have it in you, Phil. ------- Ph; Now back in Japan with jetlag and it's brutally hot and I don't feel good, but still just seeing, hearting, tasting touching etc. ------ N: I like this. ------- Ph: I won't go into family matters on line, but much of interest, most of it very heartwarming. ------- N: I is good it was hearwarming. I am sure your mother enjoyed seeing you. No Need to answer, think of your book. Nina. #75303 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Aug 18, 2007 6:37 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Re: Asoka, Ch 1, no 6. nilovg Dear Tep and Mike, Op 18-aug-2007, om 3:13 heeft m. nease het volgende geschreven: > Mike: So the 'perception of impermance' would be perception of a > dhamma, not pa.n.natti; and this does seem like insight, rather than > a particular khandha, doesn't it? > > T: I think "perception aggregate" includes all dhamma, ultimate > realities and pa.n.natti. ------- N: The khandha of perception sa~n~naa is just sa~n~naa. But aniccaa sa~n~naa stands for insight, seeing dhammas that appear as impermanent, realizing their arising and falling away. In that way the wrong remembrance of permanence can be overcome. Nina. #75304 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Aug 18, 2007 6:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Asoka, Ch 1, no 6. nilovg Dear Tep (and the mods), I just answered. Yahoo is so strange, sometimes my posts take six or more hours to come through. Especially later in the day and I push twice. Nina. Op 18-aug-2007, om 15:35 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > Yes. Now I am interested to hear from Nina too. #75305 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Aug 18, 2007 6:55 am Subject: [dsg] Making Comparisons (... Re: Proper Training as a Co...) indriyabala Dear Nina, (Han, Sarah, and all oldies,..) - You wrote: > Dear Han, > O, I sympathyze so much with you. Many weeks ago I also had a bad > fall (we are oldies, aren't we?) and a lot of pain. It happened at > home, when grasping for a book. Had to go to the therapist who > helped, but when one leg was cured the other started. What helped > most was our eight day walking vacation near the Meuse. > Now we are in for other trouble: Lodewijk's heart is irregular and > today we returned suddenly after having planned a long walk. He could not make the walk. He did not feel good and we may even have to cancel India. We see what the Doctor says. Yes, old age, and > conditions. T: I am glad that you are talking about "old age and conditions" and also how you wisely "handle" jara. "That's the way it is, Ananda. When young, one is subject to aging; when healthy, subject to illness; when alive, subject to death. The complexion is no longer so clear & bright; the limbs are flabby & wrinkled; the back, bent forward; there's a discernible change in the faculties — the faculty of the eye, the faculty of the ear, the faculty of the nose, the faculty of the tongue, the faculty of the body." [SN 48.41] As a water bead on a lotus leaf, as water on a red lily, does not adhere, so the sage does not adhere to the seen, the heard, or the sensed; for, cleansed, he doesn't construe in connection with the seen, the heard, or the sensed. [Sn 4.6] .......... There is old age, and there is one who is aging (no one can deny that). But the wise person does not cling to the aging body and its suffering as 'mine, me, my self'. Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > ... There is seeing in India but also here, still such a lot > to be learned. Anyway your suggestion really keeps me happy. The more I read in that book (also to quote for others) the more I think: this is so beautifully said and so true. > Did you have a lot of pain and therapy? > Nina. #75306 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Aug 18, 2007 6:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] re: not hard to accept. scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, Thanks for the reply: Sarah: "...So as we all agree now, I think, paccavekkhana is used in different contexts to refer to different kinds of considering and understanding. If it refers to ~naana, clearly it refers to paccavekkhana ~naana, arising after lokuttara cittas (or jhana cittas in context). Otherwise, we need to consider the context. To Raahula, as I understand it, he is being encouraged to develop satipatthana - understanding what is good and bad and all other dhammas." Scott: This makes sense - that Raahula is being instructed to develop satipa.t.thaana. However, I still have a question regarding two aspects of this instruction. They relate to the temporal aspects of the instruction. 1) The Buddha encourages paccavekkhana in relation to future actions of the body, speech, and mind. For example: "...Raahula, when you wish to do an action with the body, you should reflect upon that same bodily action thus: 'Would this action that I wish to do with the body lead to my own affliction, or to the affliction of others, or to the affliction of both? Is it an unwholesome bodily action with painful consequences, with painful results?'..." He also encourages paccavekkhana of completed actions of body, speech and mind. For example: "...Also, Raahula, after you have done an action with the body, you should reflect upon that same bodily action thus: 'Did this action that I did with the body lead to my own affliction, or to the affliction of others, or to the affliction of both? Was it an unwholesome bodily action with painful consequences, with painful results?..." Scott: What are the objects of these reflections (that is, past action or future action)? My guess, to be consistent with the idea that this is an instruction regarding satipa.t.thaana - the here-and-now - would be that the kusala or akusala of the moment in relation to the thoughts of actions performed or to be performed needs to be known. There is an interesting phrase, referring to the knowledge gained from reflection, translated in English as, 'But when you reflect, if you know..." In the Paa.li it is: "...paccavekkhamà no eva.m jaaneyyaasi..." Scott: Jaaneyyaasi is a word I don't know. Jaana is, according to the PTS PED: "Jaana (adj.) [...see jÄ?nÄ?ti] knowing or knowable, understandable..." Jaanaati is: "...to know, to have or gain knowledge, to be experienced, to be aware, to find out...to know recognize, be familiar with...to have knowledge of, experience, find; to infer, conclude, distinguish, state, define.." The PTS PED mentions "~neyya" as being related to jaanaati, and ~neyya is related to ~naa.na, which is knowledge, and, I assume, a function of pa~n~naa. Can you sort through this for any further clarification? Thanks, Sarah. Sincerely, Scott. #75307 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Aug 18, 2007 6:49 am Subject: Asoka Ch 2, no 2. nilovg Dear friends, Rúpas arise and fall away in groups consisting of different kinds of rúpa. Each group consists at least of eight rúpas: the four Great Elements which are solidity, cohesion, heat and motion, and in addition colour, odour, flavour and nutritive essence. Thus, when colour or visible object arises, it does not arise alone, it is accompanied by the other seven rúpas of that group. Seeing experiences visible object, it does not experience the accompanying rúpas of that group. What we take for a whole of mind and body, a person, are only citta, cetasika and rúpa which do not last. Citta, cetasika and rúpa arise because of their appropriate conditions. Whatever arises because of conditions has to fall away again, because the conditioning factors are also phenomena which do not last. If there were no colour and no eyesense there could not be seeing. Colour and eyesense which arise are conditions for seeing, they perform their functions and then they fall away. Seeing also falls away immediately. There is one reality which is unconditioned and that is nibbåna. Nibbåna is not rúpa, it is nåma, but it does not experience an object and it does not arise and fall away. It can be experienced by the cittas of the person who attains enlightenment. Citta, cetasika, rúpa and nibbåna are paramattha dhammas, ultimate realities. Paramattha dhammas are different from conventional truth. Person, animal or table are conventional realities we all know. We give them names to designate them in our daily life. They are objects of thinking, but they have no characteristics which can be directly experienced. Through the Buddha’s teaching we come to know paramattha dhammas, ultimate truth we had not heard of before. They have their own characteristics which cannot be changed. We can change their names, but their characteristics cannot be changed. Seeing is always seeing, no matter how we name it. It experiences visible object through the eyes. As to the unconditioned paramattha dhamma, nibbåna, this does not arise and fall away. Nibbåna means freedom from the dukkha inherent in the five khandhas which arise and fall away. ****** Nina. #75308 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Aug 18, 2007 7:05 am Subject: Q. [dsg] Re: Asoka, Ch 1, no 6. indriyabala --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Tep and Mike, > > Op 18-aug-2007, om 3:13 heeft m. nease het volgende geschreven: > > > Mike: So the 'perception of impermance' would be perception of a > > dhamma, not pa.n.natti; and this does seem like insight, rather than > > a particular khandha, doesn't it? > > > > T: I think "perception aggregate" includes all dhamma, ultimate > > realities and pa.n.natti. > ------- > N: The khandha of perception sa~n~naa is just sa~n~naa. But aniccaa sa~n~naa stands for insight, seeing dhammas that appear as > impermanent, realizing their arising and falling away. In that way > the wrong remembrance of permanence can be overcome. > Nina. > T: I think the "perception aggregate" -- sanna khandha --that is defined in the sutta I quoted from, consists of the perception of "all dhamma, ultimate realities and pa.n.natti" as said before. Yes, I also understand that "aniccaa sa~n~naa stands for insight, seeing dhammas that appear as impermanent, realizing their arising and falling away". But that is not the discussion issue, isn't it? Tep === #75309 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Aug 18, 2007 7:12 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Asoka, Ch 1, no 6. indriyabala Dear Nina, - I appreciate your attention and awareness. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Tep (and the mods), > I just answered. Yahoo is so strange, sometimes my posts take six or > more hours to come through. Especially later in the day and I push > twice. > Nina. I also had a similar experience! The point in time when a sent message appears on the message board depends on the traffic (messages waiting to be processed by the computer servers) as well as other system conditions. Tep === #75311 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Aug 18, 2007 7:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] re: not hard to accept. scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, P.S. Regarding: "Jaaneyyaasi" of "...paccavekkhamaano eva.m jaaneyyaasi..." PTS PED: "Neyya (adj.) [grd. of neti...] to be led, carried etc.; fig. to be instructed; to be inferred, guessed or understood..." Would the compound be translated something like: "knowing conditioned by inference"? Also, I see the word "paccavekkhamaano", and look at "maano", and wonder if this is a reference to a particular form of thought... Sincerely, Scott. #75312 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Aug 18, 2007 6:48 am Subject: Conditions, Ch 11, no 3. nilovg Dear friends, We read in the “Visuddhimagga”( XIX, 14-17) about different ways of classifying kamma. Kamma can be classified as weighty, habitual, death-threshold and reserve or cumulative by being performed [1] (Visuddhimagga XIX, 15,16). Weighty (garuka) kamma is very unprofitable kamma, such as the killing of a parent, or very profitable kamma, such as jhånacitta. Habitual (åcinna) kamma is what one usually and repeatedly does. Death-threshold (åsanna) kamma is what is vividly remembered just before death. Reserve or cumulative kamma (kamma katattå) is kamma which is not included in the other three kinds, but which has been performed in the past. The latter produces rebirth if there is no opportunity for one of the other three kinds to do so. Do we know which type of kamma we usually and repeatedly perform? Is it akusala kamma through body, speech or mind, or is it kusala kamma? When we perform kusala kamma such as generosity do we know whether the kusala citta is accompanied by paññå or unaccompanied by paññå ? The development of satipatthåna, right understanding of nåma and rúpa, is kusala kamma. When we see the benefit of considering nåma and rúpa over and over again, in one’s daily life, it can become habitual kamma, often performed. Then paññå can be developed which leads to the end of rebirth-producing kamma. Kamma can also be classified as: reproductive, consolidating, obstructive and destructive. Reproductive kamma (janaka kamma) produces nåma and rúpa at birth and in the course of life. Consolidating or supportive kamma (upatthambaka kamma) consolidates the result which has been produced by reproductive kamma. Supportive kusala kamma can prolong the arising of pleasant results in the form of health or wealth and supportive akusala kamma can prolong the arising of painful feeling and the experience of other unpleasant objects in the course of life. Obstructive or counteractive kamma (upapílaka kamma) weakens, interrupts or retards the result of kusala kamma or akusala kamma. Someone who has a happy rebirth may suffer ill health so that he cannot enjoy pleasant objects. An animal who has an unhappy rebirth may still have a comfortable life because of obstructive kamma. Destructive kamma (upaghåtaka kamma) counteracts other weaker kamma to produce its result; instead it produces its own result. --------- 1. Kamma katattå, literally: kamma which has been done. Sometimes it is translated as “stored up kamma”, but this is misleading, since it may suggest something which is permanent. Kamma falls away immediately, but its force is accumulated in the citta. Since our life is an unbroken series of cittas arising and falling away, and each citta conditions the next citta, kamma can produce result later on. ********* Nina. #75313 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Aug 18, 2007 7:57 am Subject: Re: not hard to accept. scottduncan2 Dear Nina, Thanks for the clarifications. Let me see if I'm following you: N: "The mental factor which is central in the process would be pa~n~naa, understanding, of different levels, depending on what is considered or reviewed..." Scott: Pa~n~naa is the "active ingredient." How are paccavekkhana and pa~n~naa related with the process? N: "Manaasikaara has different meanings. The cetasika arises with each citta. We speak of yoniso or ayoniso when referring to the series of javanacittas which may be kusala or akusala." Scott: There is so much to learn about the javana process. So, the functional moments, those which are either yoniso or ayoniso and which would constitute the moments of relfection, are those seven javana moments, when the object is being "run through" or considered? N: "The Buddha uses vohara, conventional speech, but as a means to convey a deeper truth. It was a reminder to Rahula not to be forgetful. It is so easy to misrepresent suttas." Scott: And, concomitantly, so easy to misunderstand if one just goes by the English and adopts a literal adaptation of conventional speech. N: "No. Then anybody can do it, we do not need the teachings. Anybody can say: I think before I take action or speak. And can he, is he on time? I am afraid not." Scott: This is the very difficult thing to accept for some, I think. It is very tempting to consciously think about something, call it "reflection" and consider this to be a basic instruction and easy to do. N: "...The anger of that moment has long fallen away. We can make the story longer and longer by thinking, and it is so common, we all do." Scott: Please see my reply to Sarah. I'll ask you the same question: If the 'anger of the moment has long fallen away', which it has, how is one to make sense of the suggestion that paccavekkhana can relate to actions already done? Sincerely, Scott. #75314 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Aug 18, 2007 7:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] re: not hard to accept. nilovg Dear Scott, you make me repeat my grammar! -maana is another form for the present participle. Compare: samaana, being. paccavekkhamaano: reflecting. Nina. Op 18-aug-2007, om 16:25 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: > I see the word "paccavekkhamaano", and look at "maano", and > wonder if this is a reference to a particular form of though #75315 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Aug 18, 2007 7:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] re: not hard to accept. nilovg Dear Scott, I may be wrong, but it may be optative: you would know. See Warder, p. 86: bhaveyyaasi: youwould become. Nina. Op 18-aug-2007, om 15:59 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: > Jaaneyyaasi is a word I don't know. Jaana is, according to the > PTS PED: "Jaana (adj.) [...see jÄ?nÄ?ti] knowing or knowable, > understandable..." #75316 From: "nidive" Date: Sat Aug 18, 2007 9:56 am Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge nidive Hi Howard, > But think about what it is that ultimately we like or dislike. I > maintain that ultimately it is pleasant or unpleasant bodily > sensation! The beautiful scene constructed by the mind elicits > pleasant bodily sensation that we attach to and delight in, and > that we crave an increase in. This, I think, is one reason why > bodily sensation is such a central foundation for mindfulness. I don't understand how "that beautiful scene" or "that melodious music" elicits pleasant bodily sensations. It appears not to be the case for me. Also, the Buddha said in MN 148 that there are 6 classes of feelings corresponding to each internal & external sense base. I also don't understand why the 1st frame of reference is a contemplation of bodily sensations. 'Sensations' suggests 'feelings', and the 1st frame of reference does not include contemplating on feelings. DN 22: This is how a monk remains focused on the BODY IN & OF ITSELF. > > According to my interpretation, that beautiful sight as a whole > > (and not Rupa A, B or C) is the external sense base corresponding > > to the internal eye base. And that melodious piece of music as a > > whole (and not Rupa D, E or F) is the external sense base > > corresponding to the internal ear base. > > Howard: No, I don't think that is so. It is an element of the > external MIND base. This is what I feared most, and you have said it all. Abhidhamma turns the six internal & external sense bases into ONE BIG SINGLE internal & external sense base. This is not in line with MN 148. > > If "concepts" are nothing at all, how could it give rise to > > attachment, aversion &delusion? Something that is non-existent > > cannot possibly condition something to come into existence. It is > > logically inconsistent. > > Howard: How about dream lovers, Swee Boon? How about objects of > imagination? Dreams and objects of imagination are real. They exist in the minds of those who dream and those who imagine. Concepts are as real as those so-called paramattha dhammas. If not, who needs a patent system? > When we look *though* concepts to their basis, and then see > that it is ephemeral, and utterly lacking in self-existence, the > whole house of cards folds. I agree. Concepts are as ephemeral and utterly lacking in self- existence as those so-called paramattha dhammas. There are no differences between 'concepts' & 'paramattha dhammas'. Reality is just reality. The difference is just an intellectual exercise disguised as an important aspect of the Dhamma that actually yields no benefit whatsoever, but only distraction from the Path. Swee Boon #75317 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Aug 18, 2007 11:25 am Subject: not hard to accept nilovg Dear Scott, ------- N: "The mental factor which is central in the process would be pa~n~naa, understanding, of different levels, depending on what is considered or reviewed..." Scott: Pa~n~naa is the "active ingredient." How are paccavekkhana and pa~n~naa related with the process? ------ N: When there is satipatthana there is pa~n~naa accompanying the cittas which 'reflect, consider'. I am not sure what your question is. -------- Scott: There is so much to learn about the javana process. So, the functional moments, those which are either yoniso or ayoniso and which would constitute the moments of relfection, are those seven javana moments, when the object is being "run through" or considered? ------- N: this is during the javana moments. --------- N: "The Buddha uses vohara, conventional speech, but as a means to convey a deeper truth. It was a reminder to Rahula not to be forgetful. It is so easy to misrepresent suttas." Scott: And, concomitantly, so easy to misunderstand if one just goes by the English and adopts a literal adaptation of conventional speech. ------- N: An example is, the first three stages of insight are called cinta- maya pa~n~naa, and people believe that this means thinking, cinta. Kh Sujin explained, that thinking can still arise in between the moments of vipassana ~naa.na, one has not yet become detached from thinking, but there is no idea of self who thinks. BTW cinta-maya pa~n~naa can also be used in another sense. I would rather not elaborate on this. --------- Scott: .... It is very tempting to consciously think about something, call it "reflection" and consider this to be a basic instruction and easy to do. Scott: Please see my reply to Sarah. I'll ask you the same question: If the 'anger of the moment has long fallen away', which it has, how is one to make sense of the suggestion that paccavekkhana can relate to actions already done? ----- N: I find it clearer not to think of past as hours past, but rather as splitseconds past, there are countless cittas within a splitsecond arising and falling away. Here I refer to the Thai tape I listened to again. When committing an action, for example, hitting someone, there is a whole mass of akusala cittas. Before doing the deed there are already akusala cittas with strong anger. Such moments are called pubba cetanaa (past cetanaa). Then there are the moments of hitting and after that there are still strong akusala cittas. Tape: In this light the Buddha's words to Raahula are a strong warning of the danger of akusala and of neglectfulness, the warning becomes even stronger also for us. We learn from the Co. that the akusala cittas that are mohamuulacitta uddhacca sampayutta, accompanied by restlessness do not produce result as rebirth-consciousness. But, when committing akusala kamma there are many of them before and after the deed. They can produce results in the course of life. This type of citta is hard to know, it is accompanied by indifferent feeling, but dangerous. With the foregoing I am not considering what has long fallen away, but rather the pubba cetanas and the cetanas arising after a deed. These can be included in the warning: .Raahula, when you wish to do an action with the body, ... "...Also, Raahula, after you have done an action with the body, you should reflect upon that same bodily action thus:.... Scott: What are the objects of these reflections (that is, past action or future action)? ---- N: Thus, it is sati that realizes whether there are kusala citta or akusala citta, no matter before, during or after a deed. I cannot answer the question about how far past a deed can be reflected upon in a fruitful way, then the matter becomes too complicated for me. You spoke of anger but this is not necessarily akusala kamma. The sutta was about akusala kamma. We learn that also with regard to daana there are three kaalas, moments,: before, during and after. There may be many kusala cittas before handing a gift and also afterwards. They may arise without having to think. Nina. #75318 From: Dieter Möller Date: Sat Aug 18, 2007 10:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Questions Arising Out of Abhidhamma Study moellerdieter Hi Nina ( Howard , and others interested.....), thanks for your answers to questions of Howard and I had in mind. you wrote: 'good questions. A challange to think of answers. Perhaps others may view the matter from different angles, that will be interesting.' D: I feel the same way: it would be interesting to see different angles in comparison to one's own view /understanding . I try to follow your discussion with Howard , sorry in case there is repetition. For a start: (H:Now, nibbana, which is unarisen, unceasing, and unconditioned indeed sounds like "reality" to us. But whatever is like a glob of foam, a bubble, a mirage, hollow like a banana tree, and a magic trick does not sound very "real". So we wonder about lumping together the conditioned dhammas with nibbana as all "ultimates" let alone "realities".) 'N: Conditioned realities, the five khandhas, are like a glob of foam, etc. but they are real. They arise just for a moment and then fall away. That is their nature of dukkha.' D: what appears real to us is real until proven otherwise, regardless of its a impermance. The question occurs however whether it is real too in an ultimate sense, i.e. the last truth. N: I quote from Kh Sujin's perfections: The four noble Truths should be realized and dukkha is the first one. If the true nature of conditioned realities is not penetrated nibbaana cannot be attained, the third noble truth.Also nibbana is anatta, it is void of a self.' D: I think there is more to it: the Buddha once mentioned that there would be no teaching without the fact of old age, sickness and death . It is not the moment of arising and ceasing of phenomena which is our real problem in life , it is the suffering connected with decay and death! Remember about the 3 special occasions which made the Prince seeking for truth , recognizing that ultimate truth not to be found in that what itself is subjet to impermanence. As Howard, said , 'So we wonder about lumping together the conditioned dhammas with nibbana as all "ultimates" let alone "realities' . Ven . Narada wrote in the Manual of Abhidhamma (Abhidhammata Sangaha): 'Consciousness, mental states (with the exception of 8 types of supra mundane consciousness and their adjuncts), and matter are Mundane (lokiya), and Nibbana is Supra mundane (lokuttara). The Supra mundane Nibbana is the only absolutely reality, which is the summum bonum of Buddhism. The other three are called realities in that they are things that exist (vijjamana dhamma). Besides, they are irreducible, immutable, and abstract things. They deal with what is within us and around us.' Which does not answer as well, why the supramundane , the only absolute reality , is assembled together with the appearing reality : § 2 ( of the Abhidhammamattha-Sangaha) Tattha vutt' abhidhammattha - catudha paramatthato Cittam cetasikam rupam - Nibbanam' iti sabbatha. In an ultimate sense the categories of Abhidhamma, mentioned therein, are fourfold in all:- (1.) consciousness, (2.) mental states, (3.) matter, and (4.) Nibbana. This grouping does not make sense to me , even contradictory, when you say 'There are four paramattha dhammas: citta, cetasika, rupa and nibbana, and all four are real.' 'H: snip ...In any case, nibbana does not seem to be classified in that work as nama. -------- N: The Expositor II, p. 501, gives explanations about nama. There is a word association with namati, bending. The four namakkhandhas bend towards an object, experience an object. Nibbana is a naama that does not experience an object. Nibbaana bends faultless states on to itself by means of the causal relation of the dominant influence of object. Thus, nibbana is the object and it causes lokuttara citta and cetasikas to bend towards itself. In the Compendium, first conditioned dhammas have been dealt with and at the end it describes nibbaana. That is why it comes after ruupa. In the Dhammasangani we find the word aruupa for nibbana (appendix 2, 1092). Aruupa can denote naama. Naama is frequently called aruupa in the co. Usually nibbaana is called the unconditioned element, asankhata dhaatu.' D:As far as I understand, the term nama refers to the mental in distinguishment to the material (rupa) aspects within the framework of the 5 respectively 3 khandas. There are no khandas in nibbana, are they? I doubt that there is a canonical source which will prove that nibbana can be called nama. Would be interesting to learn otherwise. looking forward to further exchange .. ;-) with Metta Dieter #75319 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Aug 18, 2007 7:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: satipatthana as island of refuge upasaka_howard Hi, Swee Boon - In a message dated 8/18/07 1:00:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nidive@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > >But think about what it is that ultimately we like or dislike. I > >maintain that ultimately it is pleasant or unpleasant bodily > >sensation! The beautiful scene constructed by the mind elicits > >pleasant bodily sensation that we attach to and delight in, and > >that we crave an increase in. This, I think, is one reason why > >bodily sensation is such a central foundation for mindfulness. > > I don't understand how "that beautiful scene" or "that melodious > music" elicits pleasant bodily sensations. It appears not to be the > case for me. > --------------------------------------- Howard: Much of bodily sensation is subtle. Also, much of what we take for emotion is bodily sensation. ---------------------------------- Also, the Buddha said in MN 148 that there are 6 classes > > of feelings corresponding to each internal &external sense base. ------------------------------- Howard: Meaning that one can feel (as pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral) objects of any sense door. ------------------------------- > > I also don't understand why the 1st frame of reference is a > contemplation of bodily sensations. 'Sensations' suggests 'feelings', > and the 1st frame of reference does not include contemplating on > feelings. ----------------------------- Howard: For me, warmth is a sensation. I don't use sensation to mean feeling. ----------------------------- > > DN 22: This is how a monk remains focused on the BODY IN &OF ITSELF. > > >>According to my interpretation, that beautiful sight as a whole > >>(and not Rupa A, B or C) is the external sense base corresponding > >>to the internal eye base. And that melodious piece of music as a > >>whole (and not Rupa D, E or F) is the external sense base > >>corresponding to the internal ear base. > > > >Howard: No, I don't think that is so. It is an element of the > >external MIND base. > > This is what I feared most, and you have said it all. > > Abhidhamma turns the six internal &external sense bases into ONE BIG > SINGLE internal &external sense base. ------------------------------------ Howard: I'm not speaking for Abhidhamma. ----------------------------------- > > This is not in line with MN 148. > > >>If "concepts" are nothing at all, how could it give rise to > >>attachment, aversion &delusion? Something that is non-existent > >>cannot possibly condition something to come into existence. It is > >>logically inconsistent. > > > >Howard: How about dream lovers, Swee Boon? How about objects of > >imagination? > > Dreams and objects of imagination are real. They exist in the minds > of those who dream and those who imagine. Concepts are as real as > those so-called paramattha dhammas. > ----------------------------------- Howard: We disagree on this. ----------------------------------- If not, who needs a patent system?> > > >When we look *though* concepts to their basis, and then see > >that it is ephemeral, and utterly lacking in self-existence, the > >whole house of cards folds. > > I agree. Concepts are as ephemeral and utterly lacking in self- > existence as those so-called paramattha dhammas. > > There are no differences between 'concepts' &'paramattha dhammas'. > Reality is just reality. ----------------------------------------- Howard: I countenance but one reality, nibbana. All else is appearance only, at best like a facet of a dynamic, infinite, lustrous diamond. ---------------------------------------- > The difference is just an intellectual > exercise disguised as an important aspect of the Dhamma that actually > yields no benefit whatsoever, but only distraction from the Path. > > Swee Boon > ===================== With metta, Howard #75320 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Aug 18, 2007 3:54 pm Subject: [dsg] Howard As A Good Friend Of Theravada -- Re: Proper Training as a Contempla buddhatrue Hi Sarah, > > > the path." > > > ... > > > >J: I don't agree with what B. Bodhi writes about this subject. > ... > S: That's fine, but I was just pointing out that it wasn't some strange > interpretation just held by A.Sujin and others of us, but is mainstream > Theravada. James: I never wrote that this was some sort of strange view held by KS. I know that the reference is in Theravada sources and I read about it in many secondary sources. However, for the most part, I think it is overlooked because it isn't given very much prevalence. Just a few mentions here and there, and even these mentions aren't very comprehensive. I would hardly describe the dry-insight worker as "mainstream Theravada". Buddhaghosa even writes in the Vism. that the theory of the dry-insight worker is the theory of one particular monk and that no everyone agrees with it- even during Buddhaghosa's time. Realize, it is very controversial and far-fetched for someone to achieve enlightenment without ever having purified the mind through meditation! And, when I read what is stated in the Vism., it states that the dry-insight worker achieves access jhana. Now, I don't really feel like quibbling about if access jhana is really jhana or not, because that isn't important. The important thing to realize is that no one achieves paths and fruits just from ONLY studying/listening to the Dhamma. > > The above is not B.Bodhi's personal view. In the commentary to the > Abhidhammathasa'ngaha (end ch1), there is extensive detail on the counting > of 89 vs 121 cittas, reference to sukkhavipassaka and so on. I can quote > some, but it's very detailed and long. See also Nina's message to you: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/73273 > ... > >There > > are many different interpretations in secondary sources, it is best > > to stick with the original source- the Vism. > ... > S: Fine! > ... James: Well, I seem to have irritated you somehow. I was just stating that we should stick to original sources. I think I will just leave it at this because what you quote from the Vism. doesn't show anything. You leave out the most important sections, quote very small bits, and then misinterpret those small bits to fit a particular viewpoint. Discussion in that manner is never-ending and fruitless. I wish you luck with your dry-insight path. Metta, James #75321 From: "nidive" Date: Sat Aug 18, 2007 7:06 pm Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge nidive Hi Howard, > Howard: I countenance but one reality, nibbana. All else is > appearance only, at best like a facet of a dynamic, infinite, > lustrous diamond. For me, nibbana is unworldly reality. All others are worldly realities. Swee Boon #75322 From: "m. nease" Date: Sat Aug 18, 2007 5:24 pm Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Re: Asoka, Ch 1, no 6. m_nease Hi Tep and Nina, ----- Original Message ----- From: Tep Sastri To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2007 7:17 AM Subject: Q. [dsg] Re: Asoka, Ch 1, no 6. Thanks for your continued patience: > ------- > N: The khandha of perception sa~n~naa is just sa~n~naa. But aniccaa > sa~n~naa stands for insight, seeing dhammas that appear as > impermanent, realizing their arising and falling away. In that way > the wrong remembrance of permanence can be overcome. > Nina. T: I think the "perception aggregate" -- sanna khandha --that is defined in the sutta which I quoted from, consists of the perceptions of "all dhamma, ultimate realities and pa.n.natti" as said before. Yes, I also understand that "aniccaa sa~n~naa stands for insight, seeing dhammas that appear as impermanent, realizing their arising and falling away". But that is not the discussion issue, or is it? M: It certainly seems at least pertinent to the discussion to me. However, even if aniccaa (or anatta) sa~n~naa does refer to insight, more particularly I think it must refer to the sa~n~naa when it arises at the same time as insight--that is that sa~n~naa itself is still just sa~n~naa--does this make sense? mike #75323 From: "m. nease" Date: Sat Aug 18, 2007 4:50 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness (old post of Suan) m_nease Hi Again Nina, ----- Original Message ----- From: Nina van Gorkom To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, August 17, 2007 1:38 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness (old post of Suan) Dear Mike (and Suan), I was touched by your very sincere post. Op 16-aug-2007, om 22:50 heeft m. nease het volgende geschreven: > Suan:Vipassanaa practice as taught in Satipa.t.thaana Suttam by the Buddha > does not require us to attain samatha jhaanas whose main goals are > superhuman powers in terms of Iddhis, which are worldly and dependent > on conditions. > > Mike: Suan, I meant to reply to the above when you posted it--this > is pretty much identical to the way I see my own situation. Thanks > for stating the above so well and plainly. This kind of elucidation > and encouragement is invaluable to those of us who see > jhaanabhaavanaa as impractical for the vast majority of laypeople. > Incredibly important, I think. ----------- N: Mike, if this is not too personal, how were your feelings as to samatha and vipassana when you first sought ordination, long ago? you need not answer this. M: I don't mind--they haven't changed a bit. My understanding of the texts then was that vipassanaa could be cultivated by anyone (speaking conventionally, of course) but that the cultivation of samatha to the point of jhaana required pabbajjaa. I still think so. I still also think that the life of a bhikkhu is the best possible life and I think this is well born out in the texts. I would be ordained now if I had been able to find a kalyaa.namitta I thought competent to assign a subject (and so on) who was willing to ordain me. I've never been able to find one. Sarah wrote about Kom's monastery where there are no hindrances as to having to do ceremonies for laypeople all the time. M: I was somewhat stunned to read this. There was only one bhikkhu at WPN (long since a celebrated Ajahan now) who I believed (and believe) had a real understanding of the texts. Certainly none with Kom's knowledge of abhidhamma (or even his knowledge of samaadhi). I have a strong feeling that he's Phra Kom's Ajahn now. Fascinating news to me. From Sarah's post: S: The monastery does not encourage too many visitors (no fortune telling, sprinkling auspicious water, giving out lottery numbers, visiting laypeople's home to give blessings, etc.--the main objective there is the practice to end the dukkha), so it is quiet and sappaya for the practice. The abbot, a disciple of Ajahn Cha, is really into meditation and observe strict vinaya (no cell phone, computer, electronic gadget, even book for the monks). M: This was all true of WPN while I was there, too--very strict vinaya and none of the usual rites. The phrase 'even book for the monks' reminds me of one of the few objections I had--reading of the texts was (strongly) discouraged while reading of transcriptions (and listening to tapes) of desanaa by modern bhikkhus was strongly encouraged. These desanaa were, by my judgement, often VERY far removed from the texts. In his desanaa, though (few--he didn't enjoy preaching), the bhikkhu I mentioned was always very strict in his adherence to the texts. Altogether the most exemplary bhikkhu I've met personally--though more than a little dismissive of abhdihamma I must say. This was a complaint I heard. Monk's life is harder than one would first imagine, not as ideal as it seems. Then you have to put up with your fellow monks, being so close to them. M: Yes, one goes in expecting solitude and noble friendship and finds a very complicated existence with lots of unpleasant distractions. A rude awakening... Kom himself wrote a very good post about jhana before. How one must lead the life of a monk in order to be consistent. Away from sense pleasures. M: Quite right he was, too, in my opinion--and away from much more than sense pleasures. mike #75324 From: "m. nease" Date: Sat Aug 18, 2007 4:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Asoka, Ch 1, no 6. m_nease Hi Nina, Please pardon the delay-- ----- Original Message ----- From: Nina van Gorkom To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, August 17, 2007 1:07 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Asoka, Ch 1, no 6. > N: we usually have attaa-sa~n~naa and nicca-sa~n~naa. Through > satipatthana there can be anattaa-sa~n~naa and anicca-sa~n~naa. > > M: Sure--though very rarely no doubt for us putthujanas. ------------ N: Sorry, I miss something here. No doubt of what? --------- M: Sorry, poorly written--what I meant was, that though "Through satipatthana there can be anattaa-sa~n~naa and anicca-sa~n~naa", yes I trust there can be but only very rarely (if ever). ... > M: Regarding the third khandha this seems circular to me. > What means 'under the heading of perception'? --------- It does refer to satipatthana. Why anicca-sa~n~naa? because this can arise instead of our usual nicca-sa~n~naa: the sa~n~naa that wrongly remembers a person or thing that seems to be there already for some time and seems to last. This is so common, isn't it? Looking at Lodewijk. -------- M: OK, understood-- Now your interesting remark to Sarah: M: I've been somewhat preoccuped with sa~n~naa for the last year or so because it seems to me that most pleasant and unpleasant feeling (and of course attachment and aversion arising with them) occur more with regard to those (perverse) perceptions arising with pa.n.natti rather than those arising with dhammas, don't you think? It isn't the instantaneous scintillae of colour or sound that are the raw material for 'the hummingbird' that condition the most attachment, in other words--it's the subsequently assembled 'whole', I think (though of course there can be instantaneous attachment to a moment of color or sound too). -------- N: As Sarah explained: there is sa~n~naa vipallasa with each akusala citta. We do not notice the akusala citta arising just after seeing or hearing and that is a danger. Sa~n~naa marks the object but does so in an unwholesome way. There are countless moments of seeing again and again and if we are not engaged with dana, sila or bhaavanaa, the javanacittas are akusala. How they run on! Unknown. At those moments there is also perversion of sa~n~naa. M: Understood. It is good to know, I think. If one does not know one accumulates ever more akusala. It can also deceive one if one believes that the hindrances have been overcome already. M: Yes, a particularly dangerous delusion, I think. Thanks again, mike #75325 From: "nidive" Date: Sat Aug 18, 2007 8:31 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: satipatthana as island of refuge nidive Hi Sarah, > Just to be clear, the ayatanas refer to eye and visible object, ear > and sound.......Mind (i.e.cittas) and mind-objects (i.e.those > paramattha dhammas only appearing through the mind-door. These are > cetasikas, subtle rupas and nibbana.) I know. That is according to Abhidhamma, where 'concepts' are 'eliminated' throughout all the external ayatanas. But I believe the suttas tell a different story. > Without the 'coming together' of the ayatanas, there would be no > fetters (samyojanas) arising, based on them. Well, of course! > S: Good question. As Howard said, the concepts are not real and > therefore are not impermanent. I think it is very important to > distinguish what is real and what is not. I disagree. 'Concepts' are just as real as paramattha dhammas. > Otherwise, we'll always be swayed and influenced by our > imagination, our stories and ideas based on the realities. Isn't a tree a 'concept' according to Abhidhamma? Does that mean when I am merely looking at a tree, I am engaged in imaginations and story- telling? No, I am just looking at the tree which appears right in front of my eyes. I didn't imagine it. > I liked Howard's expression: "We create casteles-in-the-sky, we > love them, and then, like lunatics, we move in!" The tree with lush green leaves that I am looking at is not a castle- in-the-sky. But the tree with golden glittering leaves which I imagine in my mind, that is a castle-in-the-sky. > The worst part is that most the time, we have no idea at all that > they are mere fantasies. The tree with golden glittering leaves is a fantasy, but the tree with lush green leaves is not. I contend that the tree with lush green leaves that I am looking at comes under the external eye ayatana and the tree with golen glittering leaves that I imagine in my mind comes under the external mind ayatana. The tree with lush green leaves is not an idea, it is a sight. Likewise, The tree with golden glittering leaves is not a sight, it is an idea. > S: No, because a river is a concept, not a rupa! According to Abhidhamma, isn't a river made up of countless numbers of rupas? > But all rupas are afflicted (ruppati). For example, the earth > element, the water element and so on are afflicted in various ways. I concede on this. > S: What about the rupas making up the computer? Hairs and dust and > crumbs fall on them....they wear down, break down.....just like the > body! I concede on this too. But I still maintain satipatthana only includes rupas of the physical body. This is evident in MN 28 where the Buddha distinguishes between internal & external earth/liquid/fire/wind elements, and describes how contemplation on internal earth/liquid/fire/wind elements leads to release. The emphasis is always on the internal elements. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.028.than.html Swee Boon #75326 From: "nidive" Date: Sat Aug 18, 2007 8:58 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: satipatthana as island of refuge nidive Hi Sarah, > S: :-) I know.... You've opened a can of worms here... I'd like to > say, it's not important and just forget it if it's a distraction! But I think it's important theoretically. > > When experiencing an unclassifiable object, how does one know > > that it is of a paramattha dhamma or of a concept? > .... > S: Very good question! Better to just understand what paramattha > dhammas are and to develop understanding of them without being > side-tracked by the technical details. For some it's helpful to > appreciate the detailed mechanics, but in terms of the development > of satipatthana, it's not important at all. If the theory is flawed or incomplete, how can it condition faith to arise? > If there is awareness of the characteristic of visible object, for > example, it makes no difference at all whether it is the > paramattha dhamma known in the sense-door process or the paramattha > dhamma by way of unclassifiable object in the mind-door process. The > characteristic is exactly the same. When there is thinking about the > visible object, one knows the object is a concept. How do you know that the characteristic is exactly the same? Do you speak this from direct experience? Should I take what you said on faith? > > Does it come with a mental marker or label? > ... > S: Again, a good question! I was about to just say 'no'. When the > paramattha dhamma is directly experienced, there is no doubt at that > moment that it is the characteristic of reality, not a concept. > However, all conditioned dhammas have a nimitta (marker?)and in > fact it is the nimitta of the paramattha dhamma which is > experienced until the highly developed insight which directly > realises the arising and passing away of paramattha dhammas has > been developed. Thus, the insight gets closer and closer to the > paramattha dhamma itself. How do you know that the insight gets closer and closer to the paramattha dhamma itself? Again, do you speak this from direct experience? > However, the most important thing is to clearly understand the > difference between paramattha dhammas and concepts so that > awareness and understanding of the former can develop. This is why > the pariyatti is so important for patipatti. But the last piece of the puzzle has not been put into place! > > If it is not possible to know, of what good is the distinction > > between a paramattha dhamma and a concept? > ... > S: It is possible to know and for the wisdom to develop, becoming > stronger and stronger, knowing the characteristics of paramattha > dhammas more and more precisely. Isn't this just mere assertion? Swee Boon #75327 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Aug 18, 2007 7:20 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Re: Asoka, Ch 1, no 6. nilovg Dear Tep, Op 18-aug-2007, om 16:05 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > I think the "perception aggregate" -- sanna khandha --that is > defined in the sutta I quoted from, consists of the perception > of "all dhamma, ultimate realities and pa.n.natti" as said before. -------- N: That is right. I was somewhat confused when you wrote: But you meant: perception of all dhammas... Thank you for your good quotes on old age. Nina. #75328 From: "nidive" Date: Sun Aug 19, 2007 12:10 am Subject: Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness nidive Hi Jon, > This is an interesting idea, but I'm not sure why you make this > particular connection. Would you care to elaborate on the reasons > for seeing it this way? In the Ogha-tarana Sutta, the Buddha said he crossed over the floods without pushing forward and without staying in place. -------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn01/sn01.001.than.html "But how, dear sir, did you cross over the flood without pushing forward, without staying in place?" "When I pushed forward, I was whirled about. When I stayed in place, I sank. And so I crossed over the flood without pushing forward, without staying in place." -------------------------------------------------------------------- I believe that my interpretation solves the mystery surrounding this sutta. As the Buddha said, it is the wrong time to develop the factors of investigation, persistence and rapture when the mind is restless. The result is a 'whirling about' of the mind (hard to calm down). He also said it is the wrong time to develop the factors of serenity, concentration and equanimity when the mind is sluggish. The result is a 'sinking' of the mind (hard to raise up). Therefore, the Buddha crossed over the floods by developing the factors of awakening at the appropriate times and bringing them to a complete balance. As for the factor of mindfulness, he says it is useful all the times. The same line of reasoning is seen in Kimsuka. The gatekeeper keeps watch 24 hours a day. (Mindfulness is useful all the times.) The accurate report stands for nibbana. (Crossing over the floods.) What's left are the rest of the 6 factors of awakening. The only logical conclusion is that these 6 factors of awakening are subsumed under insight & samatha (pair of messengers). How they are subsumed under insight & samatha, I believe I have answered above as well as before. As for the 3 paragraphs of DN 22 (repeated for each frame of reference), I believe that they talk about the development of the 7 factors of awakening with reference to each frame of reference. How else can it be? The Buddha is so consistent with his Dhamma that there is always an element of predictability if one is familiarised with the suttas instead of the commentaries. I suspect this is how bhikkhus of ancient times such as Ananda were capable of memorising the discourses without lapse. Swee Boon #75329 From: han tun Date: Sat Aug 18, 2007 3:47 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Making Comparisons (... Re: Proper Training as a Co...) hantun1 Dear Tep, I thank you very much for your kind post and the very valuable sutta references. I am also grateful for your wise consul, and I will try not to cling to this aging and useless body and its suffering as ‘mine, me, my self.’ Respectfully, Han --- Tep Sastri wrote: > Dear Nina, (Han, Sarah, and all oldies,..) - > > You wrote: > > Dear Han, > > O, I sympathyze so much with you. Many weeks ago I > also had a bad > > fall (we are oldies, aren't we?) and a lot of > pain. #75330 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Aug 19, 2007 3:21 am Subject: Q. [dsg] Re: Asoka, Ch 1, no 6. indriyabala Hi Mike, - --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" wrote: > > Hi Tep and Nina, > ... > > N: The khandha of perception sa~n~naa is just sa~n~naa. But aniccaa > > sa~n~naa stands for insight, seeing dhammas that appear as > > impermanent, realizing their arising and falling away. In that way > > the wrong remembrance of permanence can be overcome. > > Nina. > > T: I think the "perception aggregate" -- sanna khandha --that is > defined in the sutta which I quoted from, consists of the perceptions > of "all dhamma, ultimate realities and pa.n.natti" as said before. > Yes, I also understand that "aniccaa sa~n~naa stands for insight, > seeing dhammas that appear as impermanent, realizing their arising > and falling away". But that is not the discussion issue, or is it? > > M: It certainly seems at least pertinent to the discussion to me. > However, even if aniccaa (or anatta) sa~n~naa does refer to insight, more particularly I think it must refer to the sa~n~naa when it arises at the same time as insight--that is that sa~n~naa itself is still just sa~n~naa--does this make sense? > ....... T: Yes, it makes sense that any sa~n~naa IS a sa~n~naa -- no doubt about that. And I thank you for making the point that "aniccaa (or anatta) sa~n~naa arises at the same time as insight", since insight IS insight and sa~n~naa IS sa~n~naa. However, when I agreed with Nina that "I also understand that "aniccaa sa~n~naa stands for insight", I meant to say that aniccaa sa~n~naa supports the arising of insight. I also think that 'sati' arises as well. Don't you think so? Tep === #75331 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Aug 19, 2007 3:25 am Subject: Q. [dsg] Re: Asoka, Ch 1, no 6. indriyabala Dear Nina, - --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Tep, > > Op 18-aug-2007, om 16:05 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > > > I think the "perception aggregate" -- sanna khandha --that is > > defined in the sutta I quoted from, consists of the perception > > of "all dhamma, ultimate realities and pa.n.natti" as said before. > -------- > N: That is right. I was somewhat confused when you wrote: "perception aggregate" includes all dhamma, ultimate realities and > pa.n.natti.> But you meant: perception of all dhammas... > Thank you for your good quotes on old age. > Nina. T: I am sorry for the confusion and will try to be clearer from now. I am glad that you like those sutta quotes too. Tep ==== #75332 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Aug 19, 2007 3:40 am Subject: [dsg] Making Comparisons (... Re: Proper Training as a Co...) indriyabala Dear Han, - Thank you for the very humble reply. > Han: I am also grateful for your wise consul, and I will > try not to cling to this aging and useless body and > its suffering as `mine, me, my self.' A problem with old age I think most young and middle-age people have is that they don't think much about it, until one day they see "it" in the mirror. If the wise understanding (this body is not mine, not I, not my self) could arise earlier, they (including me) wouldn't have much of a problem several years later. Tep ==== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear Tep, > > I thank you very much for your kind post and the very > valuable sutta references. #75333 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Aug 19, 2007 5:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Making Comparisons (... Re: Proper Training as a Co...) nilovg Dear Tep, when young one can think of it. For example when seeing one's ageing parents. Still, this is different from when you actually feel it. Like the pain after a fall and then not being able to walk without pain for weeks. Nina. Op 19-aug-2007, om 12:40 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > A problem with old age I think most young and middle-age people have > is that they don't think much about it, until one day they see "it" > in the mirror. If the wise understanding (this body is not mine, not > I, not my self) could arise earlier, they (including me) wouldn't > have much of a problem several years later. #75334 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Aug 19, 2007 6:46 am Subject: [dsg] Making Comparisons (... Re: Proper Training as a Co...) indriyabala Dear Nina and han (and Sarah), - >Nina: > when young one can think of it. For example when seeing one's ageing parents. Still, this is different from when you actually feel it. Like the pain after a fall and then not being able to walk without pain for weeks. T: They say "seeing is believing", so you are right about seeing one's own ageing parents. I know what you mean because my mom lived to be 99 years old (she would have made 100 on February 16th this year), and it was pain for me to see her ageing, unable to walk and suffering every move. Beyond "seeing is believing" is experiencing an old body that is disintegrating like you've described. Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Tep, ... .... > Nina. > Op 19-aug-2007, om 12:40 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > > > A problem with old age I think most young and middle-age people have is that they don't think much about it, until one day they see "it" in the mirror. If the wise understanding (this body is not mine, not I, not my self) could arise earlier, they (including me) wouldn't have much of a problem several years later. > #75335 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Sun Aug 19, 2007 5:57 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (64) nichiconn Dear Friends, 11. Dvaadasakanipaato 1. Uppalava.n.naatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa part 22 PRUITT notes: The episode recounted in vv.230-5 is found in S I 131-2 but with differences in the reading of the verses. A number of the differences and quotations from Spk are given in EV II, p. 104 ad vv. 230-2. {CDB: I. Sagaathaavagga 5. Bhikkhuniisa.myutta 5. Uppalava.n.naa At Saavatthii. Then, in the morning, the bhikkhunii Uppalava.n.naa dressed ... she stood at the foot of a sal tree in full flower. Then Maara the Evil One, desiring to arouse fear, trepidation, and terror in the bhikkhunii Uppalava.n.naa, desiring to make her fall away from concentration, approached her and addressed her in verse: 532. "Having gone to a sal tree with flowering top, You stand at its foot all alone, bhikkhunii. There is none whose beauty rivals yours: Foolish girl, aren't you afraid of rogues? Then it occurred to the bhikkhunii Uppalava.n.naa: "Now who is this...? This is Maara the Evil One ... desiring to make me fall away from concentration." Then the bhikkhunii Uppalava.n.naa, having understood, "This is Maara the Evil One," replied to him in verses: 533. "Though a hundred thousand rogues Just like you might come here, I stir not a hair, I feel no terror; Even alone, Maara, I don't fear you. 534. "I can make myself disappear Or I can enter inside your belly. I can stand between your eyebrows Yet you won't catch a glimpse of me. 535. "I am the master of my mind, The bases of power are well developed; I am freed from all bondage, Therefore I don't fear you, friend." Then Maara the Evil One, realizing, "The bhikkhunii Uppalava.n.naa knows me," sad and disappointed, disappeared right there.} Sisters txt: 230. "Supupphitagga.m upagamma paadapa.m, ekaa tuva.m ti.t.thasi saalamuule; na caapi te dutiyo atthi koci, baale na tva.m bhaayasi dhuttakaana.m". Tattha supupphitagganti su.t.thu pupphita-agga.m, aggato pa.t.thaaya sabbaphaalipullantii attho. Paadapanti rukkha.m, idha pana saalarukkho adhippeto. Ekaa tuvanti ekikaa tva.m idha ti.t.thasi. Na caapi te dutiyo atthi kociiti tava sahaayabhuuto aarakkhako kocipi natthi, ruupasampattiyaa vaa tuyha.m dutiyo kocipi natthi, asadisaruupaa ekikaava imasmi.m janavivitte .thaane ti.t.thasi. Baale na tva.m bhaayasi dhuttakaananti taru.nike tva.m dhuttapurisaana.m katha.m na bhaayasi, saki~ncanakaarino dhuttaati adhippaayo. Ima.m kira gaatha.m maaro ekadivasa.m theri.m supupphite saalavane divaavihaara.m nisinna.m disvaa upasa"nkamitvaa vivekato vicchinditukaamo viima.msanto aaha. Pruitt: [Maara:] 230. Going up to a tree with well-flowered top, you stand there alone at the foot of the saala tree.* You do not even have a companion. Child, are you not afraid of rogues? *Ce and Thii have "at the foot of a tree" (rukkha-muule). 230. There, with well-flowered top (supupphit'-agga.m) means: with well-flowered top (su.t.thu pupphita-agga.m). The meaning is: it was absolutely in full bloom all over. Tree (paadapa.m) means: tree (rukkha.m). And here, the meaning is: a saala tree. You (tuva.m) [stand there] alone (ekaa) means: you (tva.m) stand there alone (ikikaa). You do not even have a companion (dutiyo) means: you do not even have a companion (sahaaya-bhuuto) as guardian. Or, [it means:] no one is your equal (dutiyo)* because of the perfection of your beauty. Of incomparable beauty, you stand alone in this place devoid of people. Child, are you not afraid of rogues (dhuttakaana.m)? means: you of tender years, why are you not afraid of men who are rogues (dhutta-purisaana.m). The meaning is: rogues who practise worldly things. It is said that this verse was spoken by Maara one day when he saw the therii seated in her daytime resting place in a saala grove that was in full flower. He approached her, wanting to separate her from her seclusion. *Literally: your second. RD: IV. She is disturbed by Maara in the Saal-tree Grove, and rebukes him: Maara Thou *326 that art come where fragrant the trees stand crowne'd with blossoms, Standest alone [in the shade, maiden so [fair and] foolhardy, None to companion thee - fearest thou not the wiles of seducers? (230) *326 The Pali metre changes here from the usual s'loka to a mixed jagatii and trishs.tubh metre, but changes back again after verse 231. Cf. the other version of this Psalm in the Appendix. e.g.: {{c: rest of note cut}} .. to be continued, connie #75336 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Aug 19, 2007 1:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness upasaka_howard Hi, Swee Boon (and Jon) - In a message dated 8/19/07 3:23:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time, nidive@... writes: > Hi Jon, > > >This is an interesting idea, but I'm not sure why you make this > >particular connection. Would you care to elaborate on the reasons > >for seeing it this way? > > In the Ogha-tarana Sutta, the Buddha said he crossed over the floods > without pushing forward and without staying in place. > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn01/sn01.001.than.html > > "But how, dear sir, did you cross over the flood without pushing > forward, without staying in place?" > > "When I pushed forward, I was whirled about. When I stayed in place, > I sank. And so I crossed over the flood without pushing forward, > without staying in place." > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I believe that my interpretation solves the mystery surrounding this > sutta. > > As the Buddha said, it is the wrong time to develop the factors of > investigation, persistence and rapture when the mind is restless. The > result is a 'whirling about' of the mind (hard to calm down). > > He also said it is the wrong time to develop the factors of serenity, > concentration and equanimity when the mind is sluggish. The result is > a 'sinking' of the mind (hard to raise up). > > Therefore, the Buddha crossed over the floods by developing the > factors of awakening at the appropriate times and bringing them to a > complete balance. As for the factor of mindfulness, he says it is > useful all the times. > > The same line of reasoning is seen in Kimsuka. > > The gatekeeper keeps watch 24 hours a day. (Mindfulness is useful all > the times.) The accurate report stands for nibbana. (Crossing over > the floods.) What's left are the rest of the 6 factors of awakening. > > The only logical conclusion is that these 6 factors of awakening are > subsumed under insight &samatha (pair of messengers). > > How they are subsumed under insight &samatha, I believe I have > answered above as well as before. > > As for the 3 paragraphs of DN 22 (repeated for each frame of > reference), I believe that they talk about the development of the 7 > factors of awakening with reference to each frame of reference. > > How else can it be? The Buddha is so consistent with his Dhamma that > there is always an element of predictability if one is familiarised > with the suttas instead of the commentaries. > > I suspect this is how bhikkhus of ancient times such as Ananda were > capable of memorising the discourses without lapse. > > Swee Boon > ============================= I, of course, cannot be certain of the Buddha's intention in teaching this sutta. Originally, I took this sutta to be describing a middle-way mode of practice, avoiding extremes, but I now strongly doubt that as simplistic. I must say that I am mightily impressed and rather much persuaded by what you write here, Swee Boon. It is clever (in the good sense), it hangs together well, and it certainly is not only a plausible reading but one which, for me, is eye-opening. With metta, Howard #75337 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Aug 19, 2007 6:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: satipatthana as island of refuge jonoabb Hi Swee Boon (and Howard) nidive wrote: > Hi Howard, > > ... > > When seeing a beautiful sight, I am not interested in Rupa A or Rupa > B or Rupa C that makes up that image. I am interested in the image as > a whole. According to Abhidhamma, that image is a concept. > > When hearing a melodious piece of music, I am not interested in Rupa > D or Rupa E or Rupa F that makes up that melody. I am interested in > the melody as a whole. According to Abhidhamma, that melody is a > concept. > > Now, which do you think has the most power to evoke attachment, > aversion & delusion in me? Rupa A, B, C, or the beautiful sight as a > whole? Rupa D, E, F, or the melodious piece of music as a whole? > > Do you need to guess? > > According to my interpretation, that beautiful sight as a whole (and > not Rupa A, B or C) is the external sense base corresponding to the > internal eye base. And that melodious piece of music as a whole (and > not Rupa D, E or F) is the external sense base corresponding to the > internal ear base. > > I think my interpretation is in line with the suttas where the Buddha > elaborates the arising of craving in dependence on each of the > internal & external sense bases. > > If "concepts" are nothing at all, how could it give rise to > attachment, aversion & delusion? Something that is non-existent > cannot possibly condition something to come into existence. It is > logically inconsistent. > I agree that one can be attached to the music rather than the individual notes (or to the rupas that are taken for the music). But I don't follow in what sense you say that the music is real. Surly what is experienced (heard) is just one note at at time, with each note having passed away before its successor is experienced. And it is because of the memory of the past notes that the present notes are seen as part of the same 'piece' and enjoyed as such. A lot of mental processing must go on in order to make up the experience of listening to a piece of music. Much as with listening to speech, where both the individual words and the sentences have to be extracted from mere audible data (sound) that is experienced through the ear door. That raw audible data is directly experienced in a way that the 'speech' isn't. Jon #75338 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Aug 19, 2007 6:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness (old post of Suan) jonoabb Hi Nina and Suan Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Jon, Swee Boon, and all, > I found on Rob's study forum an interesting post touching on this > subject. > Nina, many thanks for mentioning this old post of Suan's. Very much to the point. > ----------- > Suan's old post: > > How are you? > > I notice Brahamali's article regarding Jhaana controversy on Samatha > forum. The problem with those who insist on samatha jhaanas as > prerequisite for vipassanaa seems to be their failure to understand > the reason behind the practice of samatha to the level of jhaana > attainment. > > I am saying the above as one who would indulge in proper samatha > practice in pursuit of jhaana accomplishment in the first available > opportunity that is not possible in my current western lifestyle for > the time being. To persue Samatha Jhaana in a western society like > Australia, you either need to be rich enough to overcome any concerns > related to livelihood or be brave enough to be able to survive as an > outcast, perhaps living in the desert far away from western > civilization. As I am neither of both, realistic samatha practice > proper is out of my reach as things stand now. Suan, I agree with your sentiments above as far as they apply to the attainment of jhana, namely that, speaking generally, jhana cannot be attained unless the impediments have been removed. However, I'd like to ask about the development of samatha for it's own sake, not necessarily with any thought about the imminent attainment of jhana. What do the texts have to say about samatha per se, as a form of kusala to be developed, and particularly as to whether an ordinary lay life would be any impediment to that? Jon PS I appreciated your comments on the Gha.tikaara Sutta (MN 81). > In Gha.tikaara Suttam, the Buddha listed Gha.tikaara's attributes in > Section 288 that are all to do with noble faith, noble behaviors, > noble understanding and noble awakening as a non-returner. As the > Buddha dedicated one whole middle-length Suttam to Gha.tikaara the > Pot-maker, he could have listed any samatha jhaana among > Gha.tikaara's attributes if he had them. But, as none of the samatha > jhaanas were mentioned as Gha.tikaara's attainments by the Buddha, we > can know for sure that this noble pot-maker did not have any samatha > jhaanas. #75339 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Aug 19, 2007 8:18 am Subject: Re: not hard to accept scottduncan2 Dear Nina, Thanks for the good reply. N: "...An example is, the first three stages of insight are called cinta-maya pa~n~naa, and people believe that this means thinking, cinta. Kh Sujin explained, that thinking can still arise in between the moments of vipassana ~naa.na, one has not yet become detached from thinking, but there is no idea of self who thinks." I'll add this portion of 'A Survey of Paramttha Dhammas,' pp.327-328: "The first, the second and the third stages of insight are only beginning stages, they are called 'tender insight' (taru.na vipassanaa). They are not 'insight as power' (balava vipassanaa), that is, insight which has become more powerful at the higher stages. At the stages of tender insight, there is still thinking of the naamas and ruupas that are realised. However, although there is thinking, different dhammas are not joined together into a whole, into 'the whole world,' such as one used to do. "Since there is still thinking of naama and ruupa at the three beginning stages of vipassanaa, pa~n~naa is called 'cinta-~naa.na,' 'cinta' meaning thinking or 'consideration'...so long as vipassanaa ~naa.na has not arisen yet one cannot penetrate the nature of anattaa of vipassanaa ~naa.na. One cannot understand that vipassanaa ~naa.na, which clearly realises the characteristics of naama and ruupa through the mind-door, can arise at any place and can take as object whatever reality appears. It arises because of its own conditions and it cannot be directed or controlled." Scott: Would the reflection of paccavekkhana be considered part of thinking? Likely not, since the Buddha implies by analogy that paccavekkhana reflects as does a mirror. The reflection of the mirror is unelaborated; it is true to the aspects of the object which it reflects. And so a moment of reflection - paccavekkhana - would be pa~n~naa of a certain degree of development, and would take any object and reflect it clearly as to, in the case of the sutta, whether is is kusala or akusala. Me: "How are paccavekkhana and pa~n~naa related with the process?" N: "When there is satipatthana there is pa~n~naa accompanying the cittas which 'reflect, consider'. I am not sure what your question is." Scott: Sorry about that - a poorly worded question. I meant to ask about the interaction between pa~n~naa and paccavekkhana, but I think we are already discussing this. Pa~n~naa is a dhamma, paccavekkhana is a function of pa~n~naa - the 'reflecting' or 'mirror' function. N: "...I find it clearer not to think of past as hours past, but rather as splitseconds past, there are countless cittas within a splitsecond arising and falling away." Scott: Yes, I think I find this hard to stop doing. I guess this shows the difference between thinking - or rather the objects of thinking which, I'd say (correction welcome), are concepts and hence, being time-freed, can appear to be relevant at any time and in reference to any time - and pa~n~naa and the objects taken by it. N: "...Tape: Scott: Highlighting the importance of recalling that it is all by conditions and that the split-second time-frame makes it impossible to think of action or reflection or anything as controllable. Hence, I suppose, the temptation to suggest, 'Why think about it?' but, since pa~n~naa can arise at any time, thinking about Dhamma is fine. N: "In this light the Buddha's words to Raahula are a strong warning of the danger of akusala and of neglectfulness, the warning becomes even stronger also for us." Scott: 'Neglectfulness' would arise also by conditions and hence, even more difficult... N: "...Thus, it is sati that realizes whether there are kusala citta or akusala citta, no matter before, during or after a deed. I cannot answer the question about how far past a deed can be reflected upon in a fruitful way, then the matter becomes too complicated for me. You spoke of anger but this is not necessarily akusala kamma. The sutta was about akusala kamma." Scott: Thanks for this clarification. Sincerely, Scott. #75340 From: "Larry" Date: Sun Aug 19, 2007 11:35 am Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge lbidd2 Hi Howard and Swee Boon, SB: "I don't understand how "that beautiful scene" or "that melodious music" elicits pleasant bodily sensations." Larry: In order for there to be bodily feeling there has to be bodily contact. Eye contact or ear contact isn't bodily contact. However, there does seem to be bodily feeling associated with all liking and disliking. Possibly the bodily contact is volitionally conditioned by liking and disliking. If that is the case, it remains to be seen what conditions the arising of like or dislike. Dependent arising says feeling conditions craving and feeling arises with contact. Abhidhamma says only neutral feeling arises with eye, ear, nose and tongue contact. Neutral feeling couldn't condition the arising of craving for sense objects. So there is a problem here. Either abhidhamma is wrong and pleasant or unpleasant mental feeling arises with eye, ear, nose, and tongue contact, or dependent arising is wrong and feeling does not condition the arising of craving. I suggest further research "in the field". My own preference is the close attention to the eating of an apple. There is a clear distinction between bodily and tongue contact and often there is liking and disliking involved in the eating of one apple. I haven't been able to reach any definitive conclusions, but I am leaning toward the perception of the inherently desirable and undesirable as the condition for liking or disliking. However, this would mean that dependent arising is wrong. So caution is advised. It could just as easily be that abhidhamma is wrong. Larry #75341 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Aug 19, 2007 11:47 am Subject: Re Q: Some Questions Arising Out of Abhidhamma Study nilovg Dear Dieter, Good to hear from you. You have a useful series and I hope you will share often. ------- 'N: Conditioned realities, the five khandhas, are like a glob of foam, etc. but they are real. They arise just for a moment and then fall away. That is their nature of dukkha.' D: what appears real to us is real until proven otherwise, regardless of its a impermance. The question occurs however whether it is real too in an ultimate sense, i.e. the last truth. ------- N: The term ultimate may create confusion. It makes one think: nibbaana is the ultimate, the highest, or, only nibbana is real. Paramattha is sometimes derived from: parama attha: the highest meaning. Thus, what is real in the highest sense, and this different from the conventional sense. ------- N: I quote from Kh Sujin's perfections:... (snipped) Date: Sun Aug 19, 2007 11:56 am Subject: Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness (old post of Suan) m_nease Hi Jon (and Suan, Nina and all), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: ... > However, I'd like to ask about the development of samatha for it's own > sake, not necessarily with any thought about the imminent attainment of > jhana. What do the texts have to say about samatha per se, as a form of > kusala to be developed, and particularly as to whether an ordinary lay > life would be any impediment to that? Really glad you asked this--I've thought for a long time that samatha bhaavanaa is a fine thing for laypeople to do and that it should be kusala kamma if properly understood. I've never been sure that this is consistent with the texts, though. > PS I appreciated your comments on the Gha.tikaara Sutta (MN 81). So did I--here's a link to a translation: http://www.mettanet.org/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima2/081-gh\ atikara-e1.html mike #75343 From: "m_nease" Date: Sun Aug 19, 2007 12:10 pm Subject: Q. [dsg] Re: Asoka, Ch 1, no 6. m_nease Hi Tep, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > T: Yes, it makes sense that any sa~n~naa IS a sa~n~naa -- no doubt > about that. And I thank you for making the point that "aniccaa (or > anatta) sa~n~naa arises at the same time as insight", since insight > IS insight and sa~n~naa IS sa~n~naa. However, when I agreed with Nina > that "I also understand that "aniccaa sa~n~naa stands for insight", I > meant to say that aniccaa sa~n~naa supports the arising of insight. I > also think that 'sati' arises as well. Don't you think so? This sounds right to me but is a bit over my head--it certainly seems compatible with satisampaja~n~na but isn't the latter also a synnym for insight? I don't know what their conditional interrelations are, I really should study up on the conditions. Thanks for the explanation and the good question. mike #75344 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Aug 19, 2007 2:18 pm Subject: Q. [dsg] Re: Asoka, Ch 1, no 6. indriyabala Hi Mike (and Nina), - You wrote the last question (or rather a thought?) about aniccaa sa~n~naa as an insight: M: ..it certainly seems compatible with satisampaja~n~na but isn't the latter also a synonym for insight? T: You've asked an appropriate question that fits well with the DSG forum! Insight to me is what a 'vipassanā' meditation gives. However, the PTS Dictionary says that vipassanā means insight or "inward vision" and that vipassanā-ñāna is "ability or method of attaining insight". My one-rupee definition of sampaja~n~na is: the understanding about the object of sati in that moment. PTS definition for sampajañña = attention, consideration, discrimination, comprehension. Thanks to you too for giving me useful feedbacks. May I pass your question to Nina and Sarah who are experts? Tep === #75345 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Aug 19, 2007 5:17 pm Subject: Vism.XVIII,180 Vism.XVII,181 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga), Ch. XVII 180. The 'formation of demerit', comprising the twelve unprofitable volitions ((22)-(33)), is a condition likewise in the unhappy destinies in the sense-sphere becoming for one kind of consciousness in rebirth-linking (56), not in the course of an existence; also for six kinds in the course of an existence ((50)-(55)), not in rebirth-linking; and for all seven kinds partly in the course of an existence and partly in rebirth-lining. And in the happy destinies in the sense-sphere becoming it is a condition likewise for those same seven kinds in the course of an existence, not in rebirth-linking. In the fine-material becoming it is a condition likewise for four kinds of resultant consciousness ((50)-(51)), (55), (56)) in the course of an existence, not in rebirth-linking. Then it is a condition for [Brahmaas'] seeing undesirable visible data and hearing undesirable visible data, etc., in the Brahmaa-world itself; and likewise in the divine world of the sense sphere.33 ------------------------- Note 33. Pm. points out that this is generally but not always so, since deities see such portents of their death as the fading of their flowers, etc., which are undesirable visible data (see note 43 [par.278]). 181. The 'formation of the imperturbable' is a condition likewise for four kinds of resultant consciousness ((62)-(65)) in the course of an existence and in rebirth-linking in the immaterial becoming. This, firstly, is how it should be understood what kinds of resultant consciousness these formations are conditions for in rebirth-linking and in the [three] kinds of becoming, and in what way they are conditions. And it should also be understood in the same way of the kinds of generation and so on. ****************************** 180. dvaadasaakusalacetanaabhedo apu~n~naabhisa"nkhaaro kaamabhave duggatiya.m ekassa vi~n~naa.nassa tatheva paccayo pa.tisandhiya.m, no pavatte. channa.m pavatte, no pa.tisandhiya.m. sattannampi akusalavipaakavi~n~naa.naana.m pavatte ca pa.tisandhiya~nca. kaamabhave pana sugatiya.m tesa.myeva sattanna.m tatheva paccayo pavatte, no pa.tisandhiya.m. ruupabhave catunna.m vipaakavi~n~naa.naana.m tatheva paccayo pavatte, no pa.tisandhiya.m. so ca kho kaamaavacare ani.t.tharuupadassanasaddasavanavasena, brahmaloke pana ani.t.tharuupaadayo naama natthi. tathaa kaamaavacaradevalokepi. 181. aane~njaabhisa"nkhaaro aruupabhave catunna.m vipaakavi~n~naa.naana.m tatheva paccayo pavatte ca pa.tisandhiya~nca. eva.m taava bhavesu pa.tisandhipavattiina.m vasena ete sa"nkhaaraa yesa.m paccayaa, yathaa ca paccayaa honti, tathaa vijaanitabbaa. eteneva nayena yoniaadiisupi veditabbaa. #75346 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Sun Aug 19, 2007 6:20 pm Subject: Vism.XVIII,180 Vism.XVII,181 nichiconn Path of Purity, p.668 Preparation for demerit {read apu~n*}, which is classified as the twelve immoral volitions, is such a cause of one consciousness in an unhappy world of sense at rebirth, not in procedure; of six classes of consciousness in procedure, not at rebirth; and of seven classes of immoral resultant consciousness in procedure and at rebirth; and of the same seven in a happy world of sense in procedure, not at rebirth; of four classes of resultant consciousness in the world of form in procedure, not at rebirth. And it is a cause in the world of sense by way of seeing undesirable forms and hearing undesirable sounds. But in the Brahmaa world there is no such thing as undesirable forms and so on, nor is there in the deva-world of the world of sense. Preparation for stationariness is such a cause in procedure and at rebirth of four classes of resultant consciousness in the world of the formless. Thus by way of rebirth and procedure in the worlds these activities should be understood to be such and such causes to such and such classes of consciousness. And the same with the places of birth and so forth. #75347 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:03 pm Subject: Conditions, Ch 11, no 4. nilovg second attempt) Dear friends, A deed can produce result when it is the right time [1]. Some deeds produce result in this life, some in the next life and some after aeons. The lokuttara kusala citta, the magga-citta, produces immediate result in the form of the phalacitta, fruition- consciousness (lokuttara vipåkacitta), without any interval. The magga-citta is anantara kamma-paccaya for the phala-citta (anantara means: without interval). We have accumulated many different kammas and we do not know which of these will produce result at a particular moment, it depends also on the force of natural decisive support-condition, pakatúpanissaya paccaya (see Ch 8). Only a Buddha has full knowledge of the true nature of kamma and vipåka and this knowledge is not shared by his disciples (“Visuddhimagga” XIX, 17). We do not know which of our deeds will produce rebirth. We read in the “Greater Analysis of Deeds” (Middle Length Sayings III, 136) that the Buddha, while staying near Rajagaha, in the Bamboo Grove, spoke to Ånanda about deeds and their results. We read about someone who does evil deeds and is of wrong view, and who has an unhappy rebirth. However, for such a person there is also a possibility of a happy rebirth. We read: ... As to this, Ånanda, whatever individual there is who makes onslaught on creatures, takes what has not been given... is of false view and who, at the breaking up of the body after dying arises in a good bourn, a heaven world-- either a lovely deed to be experienced as happiness was done by him earlier, or a lovely deed to be experienced as happiness was done by him later, or at the time of dying a right view was adopted and firmly held by him; because of this, at the breaking up of the body after dying he arises in a good bourn, a heaven world. If he made onslaught on creatures here, took what had not been given... and was of false view, he undergoes its fruition which arises here and now or in another mode. ----------------- 1. We read in the Commentary to the “Book of Analysis”, the “Dispeller of Delusion” (Ch 16, Tathågata Powers 2, 439-443) about four factors which condition kamma to produce result: destiny, or the place where one is born (gati), substratum, including beauty or ugliness in body (upadhi), the time when one is born (kåla) and the “means”, including one’s behaviour (payoga). These four factors can be favorable (sampatti) or unfavorable (vipatti). If they are favorable akusala kamma has less opportunity and kusala kamma has more opportunity to produce result and if they are unfavorable akusala kamma has more opportunity and kusala kamma has less opportunity to produce result. For example, if someone is born in a happy plane, if he has beauty of body, if he is born in a favorabe time (kåla), when there is a good king and the country is prosperous, if he has the right means (payoga), that is, he refrains from bad deeds and performs good deeds, the ripening of akusala kamma is inhibited and there is opportunity for kusala kamma to give results. If these four factors are unfavorable (vipatti), the opposite is the case: akusala kamma has the opportunity to ripen and the results of kusala kamma are inhibited. For example, if someone is ugly in body, he may have to do the work of a slave and then there is opportunity for the experience of unpleasant objects. If someone steals or kills, thus, when his “means” are unfavorable, he may be caught and then tortured or executed. ******** Nina. #75348 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Aug 19, 2007 2:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Howard As A Good Friend Of Theravada -- Re: Proper Training as a Contempla sarahprocter... Hi James, That was a big typhoon in Taiwan to greet you back. One million people were evacuated from coastal areas of Southern China...! Bak to the sukkhavipassaka! --- buddhatrue wrote: > > >J: I don't agree with what B. Bodhi writes about this subject. > > ... > > S: That's fine, but I was just pointing out that it wasn't some > strange > > interpretation just held by A.Sujin and others of us, but is > mainstream > > Theravada. > > James: I never wrote that this was some sort of strange view held by > KS. ... S: Ok, my mistake. I had this comment of yours in mind: >James: "Additionally, she believes that meditation isn't a necessary component of the Noble Eightfold Path as there is the path of the "Dry Insight Worker" who, she mistakenly believes, doesn't practice any type of formal meditation. This is based on a faulty reading/interpretation of the texts, as the Vipassanasukha does achieve the first jhana (according to the Vism.)."< .... >I know that the reference is in Theravada sources and I read > about it in many secondary sources. However, for the most part, I > think it is overlooked because it isn't given very much prevalence. > Just a few mentions here and there, and even these mentions aren't > very comprehensive. I would hardly describe the dry-insight worker as > "mainstream Theravada". ... S: By 'mainstream', I mean the accepted teaching as given in the Tipitaka, inc. Abhidhamma, and ancient commentaries as rehearsed at the Theravada Great Councils. .... >Buddhaghosa even writes in the Vism. that the > theory of the dry-insight worker is the theory of one particular monk > and that no everyone agrees with it- even during Buddhaghosa's time. ... S: Pls give me the quote or reference for this. .... > Realize, it is very controversial and far-fetched for someone to > achieve enlightenment without ever having purified the mind through > meditation! ... S: No one has said this! But there are different understandings of what 'meditation' or bhaavanaa means. The path of a sukkhavipassaka is certainly one of purification and bhaavanaa. It just means that jhaanas are not attained prior to enlightenment. .... > > And, when I read what is stated in the Vism., it states that the > dry-insight worker achieves access jhana. Now, I don't really feel > like quibbling about if access jhana is really jhana or not, because > that isn't important. The important thing to realize is that no one > achieves paths and fruits just from ONLY studying/listening to the > Dhamma. ... S: No one has said that the paths and fruits are achieved ONLY from studying/listening. .... > > >There > > > are many different interpretations in secondary sources, it is best > > > to stick with the original source- the Vism. > > ... > > S: Fine! > > ... > > James: Well, I seem to have irritated you somehow. ... S: LOL! I thought you would know me better than that by now!! "Fine!" means 'that's great news!', let's just stick to the Vism rather than relying on modern interpretations and ideas. .... >I was just stating > that we should stick to original sources. I think I will just leave > it at this because what you quote from the Vism. doesn't show > anything. You leave out the most important sections, quote very small > bits, and then misinterpret those small bits to fit a particular > viewpoint. Discussion in that manner is never-ending and fruitless. ... S: They showed a lot to me. Well, I followed your preference and lead of quoting from the Vism. If you have other quotes you find more relevant or would like to type out more to add to the ones I gave, fine! (i.e good news!!). .... > > I wish you luck with your dry-insight path. ... S: Thx James. Who knows how conditions will unfold? For me, the most important thing is just developing the understanding of dhammas now. I don't think about what kind of path I may have or anything like that. Metta, Sarah ======== #75349 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:38 pm Subject: Asoka, Ch 2, no 3. nilovg (second attempt) Dear friends, Citta, cetasika and rúpa are appearing at this moment, they are real for everybody. They have no owner, they arise because of their own conditions and then they fall away. It seems that we can see people, but then we are thinking of conventional realities or concepts. It is difficult to truly understand the characteristic of seeing, an element which only experiences what is visible. On account of seeing we think of people and this is conditioned by remembrance of past moments of seeing, defining and recognizing. Each citta experiences an object. Sometimes the object of citta is a paramattha dhamma and sometimes it is a concept or conventional reality. When citta thinks of a person it does not experience a paramattha dhamma. We should not force ourselves not to think of concepts, because thinking arises because of conditions, thinking itself is a paramattha dhamma and it can be understood as such. Gradually we can learn the difference between ultimate truth and conventional truth. The realization of the four noble Truths is actually the penetration of the truth of paramattha dhammas. This can be achieved by being mindful and by understanding the true nature of citta, cetasika and rúpa which appear in our daily life, until eventually the truth which is nibbåna can be realized. It is not sufficient to merely know the names of citta, cetasika and rúpa, to have only theoretical understanding of them. We should verify the truth of the paramattha dhammas which appear in our daily life. We need to be reminded of the truth by listening, reading and studying, it never is enough. When we hear that nåma experiences an object and that rúpa does not know anything it may seem simple, but this truth should be considered again and again. As we just read, anger, like or dislike are cetasikas, visible object or flavour are rúpas. These are realities of our daily life appearing time and again. We should consider the truth that a rúpa such as flavour is completely different from nåma such as like or dislike. It is essential to gradually learn the difference between nåma and rúpa, because so long as we confuse their characteristics there is no way to become detached from the concept of self. ******* Nina. #75351 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness (old post of Suan) nilovg (second attempt) Dear Mike, thank you for your interesting post and good observations on monkhood. Still, your post invites to several questions. Op 19-aug-2007, om 1:50 heeft m. nease het volgende geschreven: > My understanding of the > texts then was that vipassanaa could be cultivated by anyone (speaking > conventionally, of course) but that the cultivation of samatha to > the point > of jhaana required pabbajjaa. I still think so. I still also think > that > the life of a bhikkhu is the best possible life and I think this is > well > born out in the texts. I would be ordained now if I had been able > to find a > kalyaa.namitta I thought competent to assign a subject (and so on) > who was > willing to ordain me. I've never been able to find one. ---------- N: Why jhana when vipassana can be developed in daily life? I do not see the advantages of jhana, suppose one would ordain as a monk and then lead a life compatible with jhana. Monk's life is a life higher than the lay life as we read in the suttas. Each person follows his accumulations. But it may be difficult to know what one's accumulated inclinations are. If one develops jhana one still has to emerge from jhana and develop all the stages of insight. Do you find it a disadvantage to develop satipatthana in your daily life as a layperson? Nina. #75352 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:48 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Corner (01) nilovg (second attempt) Dear Han, thank you very much for this. Op 18-aug-2007, om 13:21 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > If someone’s > goal is the arising of sati that is aware of the > characteristics of realities as they naturally appear > in daily life, but if he does not take into > consideration the development of the perfections, he > will notice that time and again he is overcome by > akusala kamma. -------- N: Someone who read this may wonder why the arising of sati is mentioned as goal, why not the liberation from the cycle of birth and death. The latter is a goal that is far away and if we are honest we do not understand what it means to reach the end of the cycle. We are too attached to life. Therefore, as beginners we may think of a goal that is nearer: < the arising of sati that is aware of the characteristics of realities as they naturally appear in daily life. > This is the way leading to the growth of right understanding of realities. But, when we think of a goal attachment can easily arise. We may be attached to reaching the goal very soon. Therefore, the perfection of patience, khanti is essential. We need patience to be aware of realities over and over again. We read in the chapter on patience: < When visible object appears, seeing-consciousness experiences it, and it can be known that there is no being, no person, no self. If we have no patience to be aware of the characteristic of the reality appearing at this moment, we cannot reach the further shore, that is, nibbåna.> Nina. #75354 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Aug 19, 2007 11:40 pm Subject: not hard to accept, a correction. nilovg Dear Scott, a correction to be made as to the sutta of Rahula at Ambala.t.thikaa. I wrote: this is not to be applied to this sutta as I did. I should have looked more closely at the co. It is stated that here the subject is not manokamma, but kamma through action and speech. The Co explains that before the meal he should purify kamma through action and speech, and Nina. #75356 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 20, 2007 1:07 am Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge nilovg Hi Larry, I shall not answer all, only part. I think that the objects appearing through the different senses, and also the contacts and the feelings should be separated. Bodily feeling should not be mixed in with the experiences of objects through the other senses. -------- Larry: Dependent arising says feeling conditions craving and feeling arises with contact. Abhidhamma says only neutral feeling arises with eye, ear, nose and tongue contact. Neutral feeling couldn't condition the arising of craving for sense objects. So there is a problem here. Either abhidhamma is wrong and pleasant or unpleasant mental feeling arises with eye, ear, nose, and tongue contact, or dependent arising is wrong and feeling does not condition the arising of craving. ------ Abhidhamma is not wrong, and neither is the Visuddhimagga. We have to consider by which kind of condition one dhamma condiitons another dhamma. We have gone through the following text before, but I quote it again. The D.O. speaks about resultant pleasant feeling. <237. What is intended here is but Resultant pleasant feeling; hence 'Tis a condition in one way For all this craving's occurrence. 'In one way': it is a condition as decisive-support condition only.> Then follows a verse stating that three kinds of feeling can be a condition for all kinds of craving. It will be after a year before we get to this, I think. <238. Or alternatively: A man in pain for pleasure longs, And finding pleasure, longs for more; The peace of equanimity Is counted pleasure too; therefore The Greatest Sage announced the law 'With feeling as condition, craving', Since all three feelings thus can be Conditions for all kinds of craving. Though feeling is condition, still Without inherent tendency No craving can arise, and so From this the perfect saint is free.40 This is the detailed explanation of the clause 'With feeling as condition, craving'. > ---------------------- L: My own preference is the close attention to the eating of an apple. There is a clear distinction between bodily and tongue contact and often there is liking and disliking involved in the eating of one apple. I haven't been able to reach any definitive conclusions, but I am leaning toward the perception of the inherently desirable and undesirable as the condition for liking or disliking. _____ N: It can be but not always. There are also other conditions operating. There are the accumulated inclinations. An orange flavour may be desirable, but you dislike it, I remember. Nina. #75358 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 20, 2007 12:46 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Re: Asoka, Ch 1, no 6. nilovg Dear Tep, (just trying to post, but only some posts appear, not all) Op 19-aug-2007, om 23:18 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > My one-rupee definition of sampaja~n~na is: the understanding about > the object of sati in that moment. ------- Sati sampaja~n~naa can mean: awareness and understanding of the present object. But they can also arise in connection with samatha. Pa~n~naa has to know whether the citta is kusala or akusala. Nina. #75359 From: han tun Date: Sun Aug 19, 2007 12:31 am Subject: Perfections Corner (02) hantun1 Dear All, Continuation of the chapter on “Introduction.” The following is taken from “The Perfections leading to Enlightenment” by Sujin Boriharnwanaket and translated by Nina van Gorkom. Questions, comments, and different opinions are welcome. ------------------------------ We cannot know for how long in the future each one of us will have to develop and accumulate the ten perfections. However, during the lifespan that we can do so, we should develop each of the perfections as much as we are able to. The ten perfections have lobha, attachment, as their opposite and, therefore, we should not forget that we should develop them not because we expect a result of kusala, but because we see the danger of each kind of akusala. We should not develop the perfections because we wish for a result to materialize within the cycle of birth and death, but because our aim is the eradication of defilements and eventually to reach the end of the cycle of birth and death. The end of the cycle can be attained when all defilements have been eradicated completely. So long as we have defilements there is no end to the cycle of birth and death. Thus, one should not develop the perfections in the expectation of a result of kusala in the cycle of birth and death. (1) Therefore, if a person sees the disadvantage of avarice, he develops generosity, daana. (2) If someone sees the disadvantage of the transgression of morality, siila, he observes siila. He sees that by heedlessness as to action and speech and by the committing of evil deeds and speech, he will come to harm. One may not realize that even speech that was carelessly uttered can harm oneself as well as other people. Therefore, if a person sees the danger of the transgression of moral conduct, he will observe morality and will be evermore heedful as to action and speech. (3) If someone sees the disadvantages of all sense pleasures including those connected with married life, he will be inclined to renunciation, nekkhamma. (4) If a person realizes the danger of ignorance and doubt, he will be inclined to the study of the Dhamma so that he will know and understand realities as they are, and this is the development of the perfection of wisdom, pa~n~naa. (5) If someone sees the disadvantage of laziness, he will be inclined to energy, viriya. (6) If a person sees the disadvantage of impatience, he will develop patience, khanti. (7) If someone sees the disadvantage of insincerity in action and speech, he will be inclined to truthfulness, sacca. (8) If someone sees the disadvantage of indecisiveness, he will be inclined to determination, adi.t.thaana. (9) If a person sees the danger of vengefulness, he will be inclined to loving-kindness, mettaa. (10) If a person sees the disadvantage of the worldly conditions, such as gain and loss, praise and blame, he will be inclined to equanimity, upekkhaa. All these qualities are actually the ten perfections which should gradually be accumulated and developed. [1] [Note 1: The Jaatakas, the ‘Birth Stories’, deal with all the excellent qualities the Buddha developed during his former lives, although not exclusively with the ten perfections. The “Basket of Conduct”, the Cariyaapi.taka, Khuddhaka Nikaaya (Minor Anthologies III), describes the perfections and relates how they were developed. The Commentary to this work, written by Dhammapaala in the sixth century, explains them more systematically and in detail. They are also described in an abridged version in the sub commentary (tiika) to the “Brahmajaala Sutta”, of the “Middle Length Sayings” (I, no. 1). The ten perfections are also mentioned in the “Chronicle of Buddhas”, Buddhavamsa (Minor Anthologies III).] To be continued. metta, Han #75360 From: han tun Date: Mon Aug 20, 2007 2:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Corner (01) hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much for your clarification. Yes, as beginners, we may think of a goal that is nearer: < the arising of sati that is aware of the characteristics of realities as they naturally appear in daily life.> The goal of “sati” is very important. If there is ‘one’ (sati), one leads to ‘four’ (four foundations of mindfulness: cattaaro satipatthaanaa), four leads to ‘seven’ (seven factors of enlightenment: satta bojjhange), and seven leads to ‘two’ (true knowledge and deliverance: vijjaa vimutti). But at the same time, what you said also is to be considered: “when we think of a ‘goal’, attachment can easily arise.” I get your point, Nina, and thank you very much. Respectfully, Han --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > N: Someone who read this may wonder why the arising > of sati is > mentioned as goal, why not the liberation from the > cycle of birth and > death. #75361 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:49 pm Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Re: Asoka, Ch 1, no 6. nilovg (second attempt) Dear Mike and Tep, Op 19-aug-2007, om 12:21 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > Mike: However, even if aniccaa (or anatta) sa~n~naa does refer to > insight, more particularly I think it must refer to the sa~n~naa when > it arises at the same time as insight--that is that sa~n~naa itself > is still just sa~n~naa--does this make sense? > > > ....... > > T: Yes, it makes sense that any sa~n~naa IS a sa~n~naa -- no doubt > about that. And I thank you for making the point that "aniccaa (or > anatta) sa~n~naa arises at the same time as insight", since insight > IS insight and sa~n~naa IS sa~n~naa. However, when I agreed with Nina > that "I also understand that "aniccaa sa~n~naa stands for insight", I > meant to say that aniccaa sa~n~naa supports the arising of insight. I > also think that 'sati' arises as well. Don't you think so? -------- N: I would think that satipatthaana supports anicca-sa~n~naa. It corrects nicca-sa~n~naa. Anicca-sa~n~naa could not arise without insight. ------- Mike in another post: what I meant was, that though "Through satipatthana there can be anattaa-sa~n~naa and anicca-sa~n~naa", yes I trust there can be but only very rarely (if ever). ----- N: Do not think 'if ever'. It can be done as we read in a sutta, otherwise the Buddha would not have said so. But Insight has to be developed in stages and then it can be realized. But we do not think of when, in this life or in a next life, that detracts from the present moment. Nina. #75362 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 20, 2007 1:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: not hard to accept, thinking. nilovg Dear Scott, Op 19-aug-2007, om 17:18 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: > Scott: Sorry about that - a poorly worded question. I meant to ask > about the interaction between pa~n~naa and paccavekkhana, but I think > we are already discussing this. Pa~n~naa is a dhamma, paccavekkhana > is a function of pa~n~naa - the 'reflecting' or 'mirror' function. ------- N: I find it hard to separate and find out what is what. Rahula may be thinking with intellectual understanding alternated with direct understanding and awareness. Who can tell? There are so many cittas. As you say: I do not know the difference between thinking of concept or thinking of a past paramattha dhamma. Perhaps when you do not see it as a whole of impressions it is not a concept. I will not try to find out. There are past khandhas and they are khandha, not concept. You quoted from Survey about thinking during vipassana `naa.na and that throws some light upon it.: This is very helpful! -------- Meanwhile, you may have seen my correction that appeared (at last) on Yahoo. Nina. #75363 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Aug 19, 2007 11:58 pm Subject: The Burmese monk's Qu - Dieter sarahprocter... Hi Dieter, I'm glad to see you're continuing the discussion on the good points from the Abhidhammattha Sangaha with Nina. Seeing your name again reminded me that Sukin did try to raise the Burmese bhikkhu's qu with A.Sujin. However, he wasn't sure if he understood it, so it wasn't very clear. I may try to raise it again with her when we have discussions in India. Thx for your patience, Metta, Sarah ========= #75364 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Aug 20, 2007 4:04 am Subject: Q. [dsg] Re: Asoka, Ch 1, no 6. indriyabala Hello Nina and Mike, - --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Tep, > (just trying to post, but only some posts appear, not all) > Op 19-aug-2007, om 23:18 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > > > My one-rupee definition of sampaja~n~na is: the understanding about > > the object of sati in that moment. > ------- > Sati sampaja~n~naa can mean: awareness and understanding of the > present object. But they can also arise in connection with samatha. > Pa~n~naa has to know whether the citta is kusala or akusala. > Nina. > T: Thank you very much for commenting on the difference between pa~n~naa and the understanding of sampaja~n~na. Tep ==== #75365 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Aug 20, 2007 4:10 am Subject: [dsg] Howard As A Good Friend Of Theravada -- Re: Proper Training as a Contempla buddhatrue Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi James, > > That was a big typhoon in Taiwan to greet you back. One million people > were evacuated from coastal areas of Southern China...! James: Yep, it has been raining and raining here! Big change from dry Arizona. ;-)) > > Bak to the sukkhavipassaka! James: Oh bother! Frankly, I'm getting fed up with this subject! ;-)) > > --- buddhatrue wrote: > > > >J: I don't agree with what B. Bodhi writes about this subject. > > > ... > > > S: That's fine, but I was just pointing out that it wasn't some > > strange > > > interpretation just held by A.Sujin and others of us, but is > > mainstream > > > Theravada. > > > > James: I never wrote that this was some sort of strange view held by > > KS. > ... > S: Ok, my mistake. I had this comment of yours in mind: > > >James: "Additionally, she believes that meditation isn't a necessary > component of the Noble Eightfold Path as there is the path of > the "Dry Insight Worker" who, she mistakenly believes, doesn't > practice any type of formal meditation. This is based on a faulty > reading/interpretation of the texts, as the Vipassanasukha does > achieve the first jhana (according to the Vism.)."< James: Yes, she seems to cling to this one passing mention in the Vism. like it is the world! 99.9% of the Vism. is about meditation practice (to use a Ken H.esque percentage ;-)) and she jumps on the one small mention of the possibility of a dry-insight worker (which can be interpreted in different ways)! Talk about grasping for straws! ;-) > .... > >I know that the reference is in Theravada sources and I read > > about it in many secondary sources. However, for the most part, I > > think it is overlooked because it isn't given very much prevalence. > > Just a few mentions here and there, and even these mentions aren't > > very comprehensive. I would hardly describe the dry-insight worker as > > "mainstream Theravada". > ... > S: By 'mainstream', I mean the accepted teaching as given in the Tipitaka, > inc. Abhidhamma, and ancient commentaries as rehearsed at the Theravada > Great Councils. James: The commentaries weren't rehearsed at the Great Councils. > .... > >Buddhaghosa even writes in the Vism. that the > > theory of the dry-insight worker is the theory of one particular monk > > and that no everyone agrees with it- even during Buddhaghosa's time. > ... > S: Pls give me the quote or reference for this. James: I am rather tired to quote it right now. It is Vism. XXI, 111, and footnote 38. > .... > > Realize, it is very controversial and far-fetched for someone to > > achieve enlightenment without ever having purified the mind through > > meditation! > ... > S: No one has said this! But there are different understandings of what > 'meditation' or bhaavanaa means. The path of a sukkhavipassaka is > certainly one of purification and bhaavanaa. It just means that jhaanas > are not attained prior to enlightenment. > .... > > > > And, when I read what is stated in the Vism., it states that the > > dry-insight worker achieves access jhana. Now, I don't really feel > > like quibbling about if access jhana is really jhana or not, because > > that isn't important. The important thing to realize is that no one > > achieves paths and fruits just from ONLY studying/listening to the > > Dhamma. > ... > S: No one has said that the paths and fruits are achieved ONLY from > studying/listening. James: Well, what in the devil are you saying then?!? What other "practice in accordance with the Dhamma" do you advocate? > .... > > > >There > > > > are many different interpretations in secondary sources, it is best > > > > to stick with the original source- the Vism. > > > ... > > > S: Fine! > > > ... > > > > James: Well, I seem to have irritated you somehow. > ... > S: LOL! I thought you would know me better than that by now!! "Fine!" > means 'that's great news!', let's just stick to the Vism rather than > relying on modern interpretations and ideas. James: Yeah, I didn't misinterpret that one. If someone says something to me and I say "Fine!" I don't usually mean it's great news. ;-)) > .... > >I was just stating > > that we should stick to original sources. I think I will just leave > > it at this because what you quote from the Vism. doesn't show > > anything. You leave out the most important sections, quote very small > > bits, and then misinterpret those small bits to fit a particular > > viewpoint. Discussion in that manner is never-ending and fruitless. > ... > S: They showed a lot to me. Well, I followed your preference and lead of > quoting from the Vism. If you have other quotes you find more relevant or > would like to type out more to add to the ones I gave, fine! (i.e good > news!!). James: I am too tired right now to type out a bunch of quotes I type out before (I am still a bit jet-lagged). Maybe later. > .... > > > > I wish you luck with your dry-insight path. > ... > S: Thx James. Who knows how conditions will unfold? For me, the most > important thing is just developing the understanding of dhammas now. I > don't think about what kind of path I may have or anything like that. James: Actually, I don't either. But it seems to me that the students of KS are pretty gun-ho about the supposed "dry insight" path. Maybe I am just too tired to really understand what you are trying to say...?? > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======== > Metta, James #75366 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Aug 20, 2007 4:12 am Subject: Q. [dsg] Re: Asoka, Ch 1, no 6. indriyabala Hi Mike (and Nina), - I think Nina hit the nail on its head : - > N: Do not think 'if ever'. It can be done as we read in a sutta, > otherwise the Buddha would not have said so. But Insight has to be > developed in stages and then it can be realized. But we do not think > of when, in this life or in a next life, that detracts from the > present moment. Thank you very much Nina. Tep === #75367 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Aug 20, 2007 4:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions, Ch 11, no 1. sarahprocter... All, I'm also re-sending a couple of messages which for some reason were rejected by yahoo!!! If it happens to you, pls re-send too! ======================= Hi Howard (& Nina), I just wish to draw this extract to your attention as it's the section from 'Conditions' which I recently quoted from to you with regard to the question about the two kinds of kamma-condition or cetana, i.e the conascent kamma condition which refers to the citta arising with each citta and the asynchronous kamma-condition with refers to the kusala and akusala cetana which can bring about results. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/75249 --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear friends, > > Chapter 11 > > Kamma-Condition (Kamma-Paccaya) and Vipåka-Condition ... Metta, Sarah ====== #75368 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Aug 20, 2007 4:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: satipatthana as island of refuge sarahprocter... Hi Tep, (Scott & all), --- Tep Sastri wrote: > S: Is not any understanding of suffering a motivation for more > understanding to develop? > > T: Yes, it is the understanding of the one who suffers now (although > there is no thought : that is my suffering, this is me, that is my > self). <...> .... S: Let me re-quote a pasage I've quoted a few times from The Dispeller of Delusion (Sammohavinodani),Classification of Bases,242f: "The characteristics of impermanence and pain are made known with or without the arising of the Tathagatas. The characteristic of no-self is not made known without the arising of the Englightened Ones; it is made known only on the arising of the Enlightened ones. For such wanderers and ascetics (taapasa) as the master Sarabhanga are mighty and powerful and are able to express "the impermanent and painful": (but) they are unable to express "no-self". For if they were able to express "no-self" in a present assembly there would be penetration of path and fruition in the present assembly. For the making known of the characteristic of no-self is not the province of anyone else; it is the province of the Fully Enlightened Ones only. Thus the characteristic of no-self is unobvious." ***** S: It is an illusion that there is a person who suffers now, Tep. This is the profundity of the Buddha's teachings. ... > S: Remember the sutta in AN about whether or not a Tathagatha > appears, this is so? > > T: Please elaborate a bit more to help me recall it. But I might not > have seen it. ... S: AN, 3s, (134), in B.Bodhi's anthology, 'The Three Characteristics of Existence': "Whether Tathaagatas arise in the world or not, it still remains a fact, a firm and necessary condition of existence, that all formations are impermanent....that all formations are subject to suffering...that all things are non-self. A Tathaagata fully awakens to this fact and penetrates it. Having fully awakened to it and penetrated it, he announces it, teaches it, makes it known, presents it, discloses it, analyses it and explains it: that all formations are impermanent, that all formations are subject to suffering, that all things are non-self." *** This one from SN 12:20 (Bodhi transl) is along similar lines, in this case with regard to D.O., but it applies to all the teachings: "And what, bhikkhus, is dependent originaion? 'With birth as condition, aging-and-death [comes to be]]: whether there is an arising of Tathaagatas or no arising of Tathaagatas, that element still persists, the stableness of the Dhamma, the fixed course of the Dhamma, specific conditionality. A Tathaagata awakens to this and breaks through to it....." *** S: I think these suttas are relevant to the points Scott and I have been emphasising: what is true is true regardless of whether there is any understanding of it or not. Dhammas are always anatta. I hope this is a little clearer. Thx for your patience, Tep. Metta, Sarah p.s Just to clarify: > T: Yes. The issue we are discussing is becoming bland like a piece of > chewing gum that has been chewed so many times. So you have a good > reason to be bored. {:-] ... S: !! Not bored. Often I have a lot of difficulty finding a sutta I have in mind. =========== #75369 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 20, 2007 5:30 am Subject: Asoka, Ch 2, no 4. nilovg Dear friends, Khun Sujin often repeated that seeing is nåma, the element which experiences visible object, and that visible object is rúpa. Some people may feel bored to hear this again and again, but when we carefully consider the reality appearing at the present moment it never is boring; it is always new, because by considering what we hear understanding can grow little by little. We are so used to thinking of a self who sees, we have to be reminded again and again that it is nåma which sees. We are absorbed in our thoughts arising on account of what is seen that we forget that seeing can only see what is visible. We cannot hear often enough that it is only visible object which is seen, a kind of rúpa. If the Buddha had not taught about paramattha dhammas and if the scriptures had not been established by means of the Great Councils we would have no possibility to learn about the truth. The scriptures and also the ancient commentaries and subcommentaries which explain the scriptures are of utmost importance [1]. Lodewijk, my husband, stressed during this journey that reading the scriptures themselves is essential, as well as studying the Abhidhamma. He found that without a foundation knowledge of realities the scriptures cannot be understood. He used to find the study of details tedious, but now he is convinced that details relate to realities. It is important to learn more about paramattha dhammas in detail. Cittas and their accompanying cetasikas can be of four “jåtis” (class or nature): they can be unwholesome or akusala, wholesome or kusala, result or vipåka and neither cause nor result or “inoperative”, kiriya. Akusala cittas are always accompanied by the akusala cetasika which is ignorance, moha, and they may be accompanied as well by the akusala cetasika of attachment, lobha, or by the akusala cetasika of aversion, dosa. These three cetasikas are called roots (hetu), because they are the foundations of akusala cittas. Besides these three akusala hetus there are other akusala cetasikas which can accompny only akusala cittas. There are three beautiful roots or sobhana hetus: non-attachment, alobha, non-aversion, adosa, and wisdom or paññå. Alobha and adosa accompany each kusala citta and paññå may or may not accompany kusala citta. Besides these three sobhana hetus there are other sobhana cetasikas which can accompany kusala citta. ---------- 1. The three parts of the scriptures are the Vinaya or Book of Discipline for the moniks, the Suttanta or Discourses and the Abhidhamma, the teaching of ultimate realities. Most of the ancient commentaries have been written by Buddhaghosa, and they date from the fifth century A.D. He used more ancient commentarial works which he edited. He also wrote the encyclopedia the “Visuddhimagga”, the “Path of Purification”. ****** Nina. #75370 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Mon Aug 20, 2007 6:32 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (64) nichiconn Dear Sisters Enthusiasts, 11. Dvaadasakanipaato 1. Uppalava.n.naatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa part 23 txt: Atha na.m therii santajjentii attano aanubhaavavasena- 231. "Sata.m sahassaanipi dhuttakaana.m, samaagataa edisakaa bhaveyyu.m; loma.m na i~nje napi sampavedhe, ki.m me tuva.m maara karissaseko. 232. "Esaa antaradhaayaami, kucchi.m vaa pavisaami te; bhamukantare ti.t.thaami, ti.t.thanti.m ma.m na dakkhasi. 233. "Cittamhi vasiibhuutaaha.m, iddhipaadaa subhaavitaa; cha.labhi~n~naa sacchikataa, kata.m buddhassa saasana.m. 234. "Sattisuuluupamaa kaamaa, khandhaasa.m adhiku.t.tanaa; ya.m tva.m kaamarati.m bruusi, aratii daani saa mama. 235. "Sabbattha vihataa nandii, tamokhandho padaalito; eva.m jaanaahi paapima, nihato tvamasi antakaa"ti.- Imaa gaathaa abhaasi. RD: She Were there an hundred thousand seducers e'en such as thou art, Ne'er would a hair of me stiffen or tremble - alone what canst thou do? (231) Here though I stand, I can vanish and enter into thy body. *327 See! I stand 'twixt thine eyebrows, stand where thou canst not see me. (232) For all my mind is wholly self-controlled, And the four Paths to Potency are throughly learnt, Yea, the six Higher Knowledges are mine. Accomplished is the bidding of the Lord. (233) Like *328 spears and jav'lins are the joys of sense, That pierce and rend the mortal frames of us. These that thou speak'st of as the joys of life - Joys of that ilk to me are nothing worth. (234) On every hand the love of pleasure yields, And the thick gloom of ignorance is rent In twain. Know this, O Evil One, avaunt! Here, O Destroyer! shalt thou not prevail. (235) *327 Maara was himself an adept at this kind of magic (see Majjh. Nik., i. 332). I follow the Commentary and Dr. Windisch (Maara und Buddha, 139 ff.) in making the Sister speak the verse, her special gift being 'mystic potency,' or Iddhi. *328 Cf. Ps. xxxv. {Selaa} PRUITT: Then the therii frightened him through her own power and spoke these verses: 231. Even if one hundred thousand rogues like you were to come together, I would not move a hair's breadth. I would not even shake. What will you alone do to me, Maara? 232. I shall disappear, or I shall enter into your belly. I shall stand between your eyebrows. You will not see me standing there. 233. I have mastery over my mind. I have developed the bases of supernormal power well. I have realized the six direct knowledges. I have done the Buddha's teaching. 234. Sensual pleasures are like swords and stakes. The aggregates are a chopping block for them. What you call "delight in sensual pleasures" is now "non-delight" for me.* 235. Everywhere, enjoyment of pleasure is defeated. The mass of darkness [of ignorance] is torn asunder. In this way, know, evil one, you are defeated, death.* *See cy on vv 58-9 (pp86-7, Selaa, Sisters 35). ===tbc, connie. #75371 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Aug 20, 2007 2:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Howard As A Good Friend Of Theravada -- Re: Proper Training as a Co... upasaka_howard Hi, Jams (and Sarah) - In a message dated 8/20/07 7:13:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@... writes: > But it seems to me that the students > of KS are pretty gun-ho about the supposed "dry insight" path. ===================== Only those who don't rely on the "random-insight path"! ;-)) With metta, Howard #75372 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 20, 2007 5:30 am Subject: Conditions Ch 11, no 5. nilovg Dear friends, We then read about someone who is restrained from evil and is of right view, and who has a happy rebirth. However, even for such a person there may be an unhappy rebirth. We read: ... As to this, Ånanda, whatever individual there is who is restrained from making onslaught on creatures, is restrained from taking what has not been given... is of right view and who, at the breaking up of the body after dying, arises in the sorrowful ways, a bad bourn, the Downfall, Niraya Hell-- either an evil deed to be experienced as anguish was done by him earlier, or an evil deed to be experienced as anguish was done by him later, or at the time of dying a false view was adopted and firmly held by him; because if this... he arises in the sorrowful ways... Niraya Hell. And he who was restrained from making onslaught on creatures... and was of right view undergoes its fruition which arises either here and now or in another mode.... So long as we perform kamma there are conditions for rebirth and there will be dukkha. Kamma is one of the links in the “Dependent Origination” (Paticca Samuppåda), the chain of conditionally arisen phenomena which cause the continuation of the cycle of birth and death. When defilements have been eradicated there will be no more rebirth. We read in the “Gradual Sayings” (Book of the Tens, Ch XVII, Jånussoni, § 8, Due to lust, malice and delusion): Monks, the taking of life is threefold, I declare. It is due to lust, malice and delusion. Taking what is not given... wrong conduct in sexual desires... falsehood... spiteful speech... bitter speech... idle babble... coveting... harmfulness... wrong view, is threefold, I declare. It is due to lust, malice and delusion. Thus, monks, lust is the coming-to-be of a chain of causal action; so is malice. Delusion, monks, is the coming-to-be of a chain of causal action. By destroying lust, by destroying malice, by destroying delusion comes the breaking up of the chain of causal action. The arahat can still have vipåka which is conditioned by asynchronous kamma-condition, but from the time he attained arahatship he could not perform new kamma. The mahå-kiriyacittas (inoperative cittas of the sense sphere which are sobhana, beautiful) of the arahat do not produce vipåka. ****** Nina. #75373 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Aug 20, 2007 2:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions, Ch 11, no 1. upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and Nina) - In a message dated 8/20/07 7:15:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > All, I'm also re-sending a couple of messages which for some reason were > rejected by yahoo!!! If it happens to you, pls re-send too! > ======================= > > Hi Howard (& Nina), > > I just wish to draw this extract to your attention as it's the section > from 'Conditions' which I recently quoted from to you with regard to the > question about the two kinds of kamma-condition or cetana, i.e the > conascent kamma condition which refers to the citta arising with each > citta and the asynchronous kamma-condition with refers to the kusala and > akusala cetana which can bring about results. > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/75249 > > --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > >Dear friends, > > > >Chapter 11 > > > >Kamma-Condition (Kamma-Paccaya) and Vipåka-Condition > ... > Metta, > > Sarah > ======================== Thank you, Sarah, for passing this on. Whatever the "conascent cetana" AS DESCRIBED may be, I do not think of it as kamma, or, for that matter, even as intention/volition (willing). For me, and as I have encountered it in the suttas, kamma = cetana = willing = volition. I see it as an impulse or "pushing," directing activities in some direction or other. I see it less as a coordinating than as a directed energizing. It is the "controlling" nature of cetana that fools us into thinking and feeling that there is an underlying agent/controller. With metta, Howard #75374 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 20, 2007 6:59 am Subject: Kaeng Krachan again, no 3. nilovg Listening again to a tape of Kaeng Krachan. Continuation of a Dialogue between Kh Sujin and Lodewijk. Lodewijk: It does not make sense to me to say that there is no Nina, no Lodewijk, it seems that in this way Buddhism is dehumanized. It seems that there is nobody towards whom one can have metta. ----------- Kh S: The truth is the truth, no matter whether we like it or not. Why are people so different? ---------- L: They are born with different accumulations which are conditioned. Kh S: Can we control it? If there are no paramattha dhammas, no citta, cetasika and ruupa, can there be Lodewijk or Nina? There must be something, and what is the nature of it? ---------- Remark Nina: Kh Sujin leads Lodewijk to paramattha dhammas by asking him why people are so different. What we take for a human being is in fact citta, cetasikas and ruupa. These arise and fall away. ------- Kh S: When there is seeing, is it ‘I’ who sees’ or is it a conditioned nama? There are different realities, no matter how one calls them: rupa cannot experience anything and nama experiences an object. If one closes one’s eyes what is seen? When there is no seeing, visible object does not appear. When there is no hearing, sound does not appear. In reality there are only different namas and rupas that can be experienced through the different doorways. At the first moment of life there is no one there, no seeing, hearing, smelling or thinking yet. Citta arises and experiences an object, but the object of experience does not appear. --------- Remark N: The rebirth-consciousness and the following bhavangacittas experience an object but this is not experienced through a sense-door or the mind-door, thus, it does not appear. It is the same object as the last javanacittas arising shortly before dying, and it is not known to us. Kamma produces the rebirth-consciousness and rupa which is infinitely tiny, and then one does not think of a person yet. ------- Kh S: There is no Nina, no one yet. It keeps on arising and falling away by conditions. Later on there is the idea of someone after seeing. What is seen is only a reality but you think of someone who is there all the time. This is conditioned by memory, by sa~n~naa which marks the shape and form of what is seen. What is seen is just a reality. It is very difficult to get rid of the idea of self, of people. But what is the truth? While one is asleep where are we? Where are our homes, our friends? When we wake up there are seeing, hearing and thinking again and again, the whole day. These arise and are then gone completely. Life is like this, from moment to moment. One has to be brave that life is like this. Last life one was born as someone, very different from this life. Who will be the beloved one in the next life? Lobha keeps on being attached. If there is no seeing of this or that object there is no attachment. What one gets in this life is more attachment. ****** Nina. #75377 From: Dieter Möller Date: Mon Aug 20, 2007 8:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Burmese monk's Qu - Dieter moellerdieter Hi Sarah (and Nina), thanks for coming back on this matter.. perhaps it would be an idea to send a letter based on your previous message, asking for his comment and indicating the possibility to raise the issue with A. Sujin in October. I would simply pass the message below to the mailbox, he left to me.. (As Nina has explained) quote: 'sahajata paccaya (conascence condition) doesn't apply as this only includes rupas conditioning each other in a kalapa (group), but not rupas arising subsequently. With regard to nutriment condition (below), I understand it's an essential support with regard to temperature/heat produced rupas in the body only, (depending on food eaten), but I also don't see it as conclusive in terms of all rupas conditioned by temperature either.' unquote assumed it is ok with you .. otherwise please correct according to your convenience.. with Metta Dieter #75378 From: Dieter Möller Date: Mon Aug 20, 2007 12:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re Q: Some Questions Arising Out of Abhidhamma Study moellerdieter Dear Nina (Howard , Sarah , ..and friends ), thanks for your mail. I am glad too for the opportunity of learning about different angles of view . Visiting friends keep me busy .. I will come back to your comments soon. with Metta Dieter, #75379 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Aug 19, 2007 10:59 pm Subject: Delays in posts reaching DSG.... sarahprocter... All, Some of us are finding there are delays at the moment in some of our posts reaching the list. Just post as usual and then be patient.... If they haven't shown up after 2 or 3 days, by all means re-send, but the chances are they will show up in due course. Thanks, Sarah (& Jon) ============= #75380 From: han tun Date: Sun Aug 19, 2007 2:36 pm Subject: Perfections Corner (02) hantun1 Dear All, [This is my second attempt to post this message.] Continuation of the chapter on “Introduction.” The following is taken from “The Perfections leading to Enlightenment” by Sujin Boriharnwanaket and translated by Nina van Gorkom. Questions, comments, and different opinions are welcome. ------------------------------ We cannot know for how long in the future each one of us will have to develop and accumulate the ten perfections. However, during the lifespan that we can do so, we should develop each of the perfections as much as we are able to. The ten perfections have lobha, attachment, as their opposite and, therefore, we should not forget that we should develop them not because we expect a result of kusala, but because we see the danger of each kind of akusala. We should not develop the perfections because we wish for a result to materialize within the cycle of birth and death, but because our aim is the eradication of defilements and eventually to reach the end of the cycle of birth and death. The end of the cycle can be attained when all defilements have been eradicated completely. So long as we have defilements there is no end to the cycle of birth and death. Thus, one should not develop the perfections in the expectation of a result of kusala in the cycle of birth and death. (1) Therefore, if a person sees the disadvantage of avarice, he develops generosity, daana. (2) If someone sees the disadvantage of the transgression of morality, siila, he observes siila. He sees that by heedlessness as to action and speech and by the committing of evil deeds and speech, he will come to harm. One may not realize that even speech that was carelessly uttered can harm oneself as well as other people. Therefore, if a person sees the danger of the transgression of moral conduct, he will observe morality and will be evermore heedful as to action and speech. (3) If someone sees the disadvantages of all sense pleasures including those connected with married life, he will be inclined to renunciation, nekkhamma. (4) If a person realizes the danger of ignorance and doubt, he will be inclined to the study of the Dhamma so that he will know and understand realities as they are, and this is the development of the perfection of wisdom, pa~n~naa. (5) If someone sees the disadvantage of laziness, he will be inclined to energy, viriya. (6) If a person sees the disadvantage of impatience, he will develop patience, khanti. (7) If someone sees the disadvantage of insincerity in action and speech, he will be inclined to truthfulness, sacca. (8) If someone sees the disadvantage of indecisiveness, he will be inclined to determination, adi.t.thaana. (9) If a person sees the danger of vengefulness, he will be inclined to loving-kindness, mettaa. (10) If a person sees the disadvantage of the worldly conditions, such as gain and loss, praise and blame, he will be inclined to equanimity, upekkhaa. All these qualities are actually the ten perfections which should gradually be accumulated and developed. [1] [Note 1: The Jaatakas, the ‘Birth Stories’, deal with all the excellent qualities the Buddha developed during his former lives, although not exclusively with the ten perfections. The “Basket of Conduct”, the Cariyaapi.taka, Khuddhaka Nikaaya (Minor Anthologies III), describes the perfections and relates how they were developed. The Commentary to this work, written by Dhammapaala in the sixth century, explains them more systematically and in detail. They are also described in an abridged version in the sub commentary (tiika) to the “Brahmajaala Sutta”, of the “Middle Length Sayings” (I, no. 1). The ten perfections are also mentioned in the “Chronicle of Buddhas”, Buddhavamsa (Minor Anthologies III).] To be continued. metta, Han #75381 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Aug 20, 2007 5:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: satipatthana as island of refuge lbidd2 Hi Nina, Thanks for your reply. I won't press my argument that perception is a far better candidate than feeling for decisive support condition for craving since it is so contrarian. I found it very helpful. Perhaps someone else might also. Larry #75382 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Mon Aug 20, 2007 7:15 pm Subject: Re: Some Questions Arising Out of Abhidhamma Study nichiconn Hi Howard, All, H: Nina, "tree" is always "tree", and "table" is always "table". But no two moments of hardness are quite the same in character, are they? If anything, it is the concepts, it seems to me, that have unalterable characteristics. So I don't find this explanation persuasive. In any case, are you saying that in Abhidhamma, 'real' means "inalterable in character"? ------- N: What is reality, what is truth? The Buddha Dhamma gives an answer different from all philosophies. ... === C: Just thought of the above when reading Path of Purification, ch.14, 43-46: << 43. But some give as their reason that it is because these [several sensitivities] are [respectively] aided by visible data, etc., as qualities of fire, and so on. {17} They should be asked 'But who has said that visible data, etc., are qualities of fire and so on? [445] For it is not possible to say of primary elements, which remain always inseparable, {18} that "This is a 44. quality of this one, that is a quality of that one"'. Then they may say 'Just as you assume, from excess of some primary element in such and such material things, the [respective] functions of upholding (sandhaara.na), etc., for earth, etc., so from finding visibility, etc., [respectively] in a state of excess {19} in material things that have fire in excess, one may assume that visible data, etc., are [respectively] qualities of these'. The should be told 'We might assume it if there were more odour in cotton, which has earth in excess, than in fermented liquor, which has water in excess, and if the colour of cold water were weaker than the colour of hot water, which has 45. heat in excess. But since neither of these is a fact, you should therefore give up conjecturing the difference to be in the supporting primary elements. Just as the natures of visible objects, etc., are dissimilar from each other though there is no difference in the primaries that form a single group, so too are eye-sensitivity, etc., though no other cause of their difference exists'. {20} This is how it should be taken. But what is it that is not common to them all? {21} It is the kamma itself that is the reason for their difference. Therefore their difference is due to difference of kamma, not to difference of primary elements; for if there were difference of primary elements, sensitivity itself would not arise, since the Ancients have said: 'Sensitivity if of those that are equal, not of those that are unequal'. 46. Now among these [sensitivities thus] possessed of difference due to difference of kamma, the eye and the ear apprehend non-contiguous objective fields since consciousness is caused even if the supporting [primaries] of the objective fields do not adhere to the [faculties'] own supporting primaries. {22} The nose, tongue and body apprehend contiguous objective fields because consciousness is caused only if their objective fields' [primaries] adhere to their own supporting [primaries], [that is to say, if the objective fields' primaries adhere] as support [in the case of odours and falvours], and themselves [directly in the case of tangible data, which are identical with the three primaries exluding water]. >> peace, connie #75384 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Aug 20, 2007 9:23 pm Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge indriyabala Hi Sarah (Scott and others) - I enjoy discussing the Dhamma with you, although our discussion keeps coming back to the issues of 'not-self' and 'no-self'. Please try to understand that I do have an unshakable saddha in the Buddha's Teachings which include the 'three characteristics of existence' (ti-lakkhana). But being a dense non-ariyan, I cannot yet claim that I know & I see 'aniccam-dukkham-anatta' clearly in the 'khandhas', 'ayatanas', and 'dhatus' the same way you do. If I were an ariyan "I" would clearly see both not-self and no-self in the "five aggregates of clinging" because the 'atta-sanna' would be completely replaced by 'anatta-sanna'; then the whole world (loka) would become empty of beings or substances. And then all khandhas would appear to the ariyan Tep as "not mine; there would be no 'I' in any internal and external signs(nimitta) and that no thing(dhamma) would be seen with tanha & avijja as "my self". S: Let me re-quote a pasage I've quoted a few times from The Dispeller of Delusion Sammohavinodani),Classification of Bases,242f: "The characteristics of impermanence and pain are made known with or without the arising of the Tathagatas. The characteristic of no-self is not made known without the arising of the Englightened Ones; it is made known only on the arising of the Enlightened ones. ..." "For the making known of the characteristic of no-self is not the province of anyone else; it is the province of the Fully Enlightened Ones only. Thus the characteristic of no-self is unobvious." S: It is an illusion that there is a person who suffers now, Tep. This is the profundity of the Buddha's teachings. T: I doubt it very much that the "characteristic of no-self" implies there is no person who suffers. The following is a right view of those who know and see things the way they truly are : "Is it fitting to regard what is inconstant, stressful, subject to change as: 'This is mine. This is my self. This is what I am'?". [SN 22.59] IMHO we have to be careful in interpreting what "self" (atta) really means. See DN 15, Maha-nidana Sutta, for the several meanings of 'atta' that are complementary to SN 22.59 (Anatta-lakkhana Sutta). T: Why would the Buddha teach people and devas if they did not suffer? And if they did not suffer, why did they come for His guidance for overcoming Dukkha? Maybe you cannot answer my questions because those "people and devas" were nothing but illusion? Yes, there were people who suffered in the past, there will be suffering people in the future, and the are always people who are suffering now, and the Wheel of Becoming keeps turning ! Sarah, the fact that the characteristic of no-self is "unobvious" to the worldlings is not the sufficient ground for your conclusion that "It is an illusion that there is a person who suffers now, Tep.". .......... S: This one from SN 12:20 (Bodhi transl) is along similar lines, in this case with regard to D.O., but it applies to all the teachings: "And what, bhikkhus, is dependent originaion? 'With birth as condition, aging-and-death [comes to be]]: whether there is an arising of Tathaagatas or no arising of Tathaagatas, that element still persists, the stableness of the Dhamma, the fixed course of the Dhamma, specific conditionality. A Tathaagata awakens to this and breaks through to it....." *** S: I think these suttas are relevant to the points Scott and I have been emphasising: what is true is true regardless of whether there is any understanding of it or not. Dhammas are always anatta. T: Yes, very relevant; you have another great sutta here. I agree completely, sabbe dhamma anatta. As noted earlier, I accept that as one of the Buddha's main Teachings. No problem. Not-self or non-self mean 'anatta' as defined by the Anatta-lakkhana Sutta, and we all think we "know" that truth. Some of us want to talk as if they were ariyans already. But are you sure that you have no doubt whatsoever that "all formations are impermanent....that all formations are subject to suffering...that all things are non-self", or are you just reciting it from the memory? ......... S: I hope this is a little clearer. Thx for your patience, Tep. T: I have a lot to learn, Sarah. By not clinging to the Dhamma (thinking 'I know, I see'), I will neither have impatience nor illusion. Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Tep, (Scott & all), > >.... > Metta, > > Sarah > > p.s Just to clarify: > > > T: Yes. The issue we are discussing is becoming bland like a piece of > > chewing gum that has been chewed so many times. So you have a good > > reason to be bored. {:-] > ... > S: !! Not bored. Often I have a lot of difficulty finding a sutta I have > in mind. > =========== > #75386 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 12:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: satipatthana as island of refuge, non-self. nilovg Dear Tep, The truth of non-self is difficult for all who are non-ariyans. Lodewijk asked many questions you may like to follow on 'Kaeng Kracan for the second time'. Kh Sujin said that if one has realized the four noble truths, that is at enlightenment, there will be no doubt. She also said that it is very, very difficult to get rid of the idea of non-self. I was glad she said that. We may understand it in theory, but to really apply it in all its consequences is difficult. The time you were absent here we had many dicussions on: there is no Nina, no Lodewijk. Lodewijk became very emotional on this question and he still is. That is why I continue now with K.K., since I listened to the tape again. We discussed the tape together. Listening again to the same matter does help. It does not think in the first time, that often happens. You speak of an empty world. I can understand what you mean. So empty of people, so lonely. Howard wrote a good post, explaining that there is not nothing. I remind myself that what we take for a person is: citta, cetasika and rupa that arise and fall away. But I realize that this is still thinking, not as convincing as to directly realize the truth of the present moment as void of a self. I follow your discussion with interest, I find it important. Nina. Op 21-aug-2007, om 6:23 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > But being a dense non-ariyan, I cannot yet > claim that I know & I see 'aniccam-dukkham-anatta' clearly in > the 'khandhas', 'ayatanas', and 'dhatus' the same way you do. #75387 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 20, 2007 7:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions, Ch 11, no 1. nilovg Hi Howard, Sorry to you and all for the doubles, caused by resending after yahoo troubles. First of all, in your other post, what is random insight? Random is a goal or aim? but it is perhaps no big deal, just a remark. Op 20-aug-2007, om 15:57 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Whatever the "conascent cetana" AS DESCRIBED may be, I do not think of > it as kamma, or, for that matter, even as intention/volition > (willing). For > me, and as I have encountered it in the suttas, kamma = cetana = > willing = > volition. I see it as an impulse or "pushing," directing activities > in some > direction or other. I see it less as a coordinating than as a > directed energizing. > It is the "controlling" nature of cetana that fools us into > thinking and > feeling that there is an underlying agent/controller. -------- N: in order to understand the different cetasikas and their functions we have to consider with what type of citta they arise. They are very different as they arise with kusala, akusala, vipaaka or kiriya, they are of the same class or jaati as the citta they accompany. For example feeling: it is very different when it is vipaaka or akusala or kusala. And so is cetanaa very different according as it accompanies different cittas. It is conditioned by citta and the other cetasikas by way of conascence. You say , it directs or coordinates as it were the tasks of the other nama dhammas. When it is kusala or akusala cetanaa it has a double task. When it motivates a deed it is accumulated as a force that conditions result later on. See the Intro of the Dhammasangani where the term force is used, and also U Narada's Guide to Conditional Relations. It is not an agent or person. Several other conditions are operating for kusala kamma or akusala kamma to produce result. Take natural decisive support-condition. And think of the four factors that have influence: time and place of birth etc. When we understand more about conditions there is less inclination to thinking of a controller. Nina. #75388 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 4:50 am Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge scottduncan2 Dear Tep and Sarah, If I may come in briefly: Sarah: "It is an illusion that there is a person who suffers now, Tep. This is the profundity of the Buddha's teachings." Tep: "... being a dense non-ariyan, I cannot yet claim that I know & I see 'aniccam-dukkham-anatta' clearly in the 'khandhas', 'ayatanas', and 'dhatus'...If I were an ariyan "I" would clearly see both not-self and no-self in the "five aggregates of clinging" because the 'atta-sanna' would be completely replaced by 'anatta-sanna'; then the whole world (loka) would become empty of beings or substances. And then all khandhas would appear to the ariyan Tep as 'not mine;' there would be no 'I' in any internal and external signs(nimitta) and that no thing(dhamma) would be seen with tanha & avijja as 'my self'." Scott: Whether ariyan or not, given that a Buddha has taught anatta again, the truth can be known. Intellectual understanding is still understanding and acceptance of anatta, even at this level, is an achievement that not all can claim. To claim intellectual understanding and acceptance of this level is not at all to claim ariyan status. Such an understanding would, however, reflect the development of pa~n~naa. The argument that anatta is only true for ariyans and that atta is true for non-ariyans doesn't make sense to me. T: "I doubt it very much that the 'characteristic of no-self' implies there is no person who suffers. The following is a right view of those who know and see things the way they truly are : 'Is it fitting to regard what is inconstant, stressful, subject to change as: 'This is mine. This is my self. This is what I am'?'. [SN 22.59] IMHO we have to be careful in interpreting what 'self' (atta) really means. See DN 15, Maha-nidana Sutta, for the several meanings of 'atta' that are complementary to SN 22.59 (Anatta-lakkhana Sutta). Scott: Tep, how would you define self, as you suggest above? There is precedence for the above view. In Wings to Awakening, Thanissaro Bhikkhu writes: "Given the well-known Buddhist teaching on not-self, some people have wondered why the questions of appropriate attention at this step would use such concepts as 'me' and 'my,' but these concepts are essential at this stage â€" where the mind is still more at home in the narrative mode of 'self' and 'others' â€" in pointing out that the focus of the inquiry should be directed within, rather than without. This helps to bring one's frame of reference to the experience of mental qualities as phenomena in and of themselves, and away from the narratives that provoked the anger to begin with. Only when this shift in reference is secure can the concepts of 'me' and 'my' be dispensed with, in the third step below." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/wings/part2.html#notself1-\ 2g Or: "What then of the well-known Buddhist teachings on not-self? From a few of the ways in which these teachings are expressed in the texts, it might be inferred that the Buddha held to the principle that there is no self. Here, though, it is important to remember the Buddha's own comment on how his teachings are to be interpreted [AN 2.25]. With some of them, he said, it is proper to draw inferences, whereas with others it is not. Unfortunately, he did not illustrate this principle with specific examples. However, it seems safe to assume that if one tries to draw inferences from his statements to give either a categorical answer (No, there is no self; or Yes, there is) or an analytical answer (It depends on how you define 'self') to a question that the Buddha showed by example should not be asked or answered, one is drawing inferences where they should not be drawn." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/wings/part2.html#notself2-\ 2g Scott: This, in my opinion, is not helpful. I don't think there is any room for equivocation on anatta. T: "Why would the Buddha teach people and devas if they did not suffer? And if they did not suffer, why did they come for His guidance for overcoming Dukkha? Maybe you cannot answer my questions because those 'people and devas' were nothing but illusion?" Scott: Here, suffering seems to refer to a vedanaa, perhaps domanassa. This would be dukkha-dukkhataa. There is also sankhaara-dukkhataa, in which dukkha is inherent in sankhaara; and vipainaama-dukkhataa or suffering due to change. In dukkha-dukkhataa vedanaa is anatta. It is a dhamma, having its own characteristic. It is no one and belongs to no one. Experience is naama. The fact of experience does not entail a person who experiences. T: "... Some of us want to talk as if they were ariyans already. But are you sure that you have no doubt whatsoever that 'all formations are impermanent....that all formations are subject to suffering...that all things are non-self', or are you just reciting it from the memory?" Scott: Who wants to talk as if they were ariyans already? Understanding anatta at an intellectual level and discussing this understanding, as noted above, does in no way mean that one is talking as if already an ariyan. Can you clarify this? To take it to its logical conclusion, no discussion of any 'higher' aspect of the Dhamma would then be possible. Surely this would be absurd. Sincerely, Scott. #75389 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 5:02 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (64) nichiconn dear friends, 11. Dvaadasakanipaato 1. Uppalava.n.naatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa part 24 On verse: 231. "Sata.m sahassaanipi dhuttakaana.m, samaagataa edisakaa bhaveyyu.m; loma.m na i~nje napi sampavedhe, ki.m me tuva.m maara karissaseko. 231. Even if one hundred thousand rogues like you were to come together, I would not move a hair's breadth. I would not even shake. What will you alone do to me, Maara? Cy: Tattha sata.m sahassaanipi dhuttakaana.m samaagataa edisakaa bhaveyyunti yaadisako tva.m edisakaa evaruupaa anekasatasahassamattaapi dhuttakaa samaagataa yadi bhaveyyu.m. Loma.m na i~nje napi sampavedheti lomamattampi na i~njeyya na sampavedheyya. Ki.m me tuva.m maara karissasekoti maara, tva.m ekakova mayha.m ki.m karissasi? Pruitt: 231. There, even if one hundred thousand (sata.m sahassaani pi) rogues (dhuttakaana.m) like you (edisakaa) were to come together means: even if many hundreds of thousands (aneka-sata-sahassa-mattaa) of rogues (dhuttakaa) that are like you (yaadisako tva.m), like you, of such a kind, were to come together, I would not move (la~nje) a hair's breadth (loma.m). I would not even shake (na pi sampavedhe) means: I would not move (na i~njeyya) even the measure of a hair (loma-mattam pi), I would not shake (na sampavedheyye). What will you (tuva.m) alone (eko) do to me (me), Maara? means: Maara, you (tva.m) being alone (ekako), what will you do to me (mayha.m)? verse: 232. "Esaa antaradhaayaami, kucchi.m vaa pavisaami te; bhamukantare ti.t.thaami, ti.t.thanti.m ma.m na dakkhasi. 232. I shall disappear, or I shall enter into your belly. I shall stand between your eyebrows. You will not see me standing there. Cy: Idaani maarassa attano ki~ncipi kaatu.m asamatthata.myeva vibhaaventii "esaa antaradhaayaamii"ti gaathamaaha. Tassattho- maara, esaaha.m tava purato .thitaava antaradhaayaami adassana.m gacchaami, ajaanantasseva te kucchi.m vaa pavisaami, bhamukantare vaa ti.t.thaami, eva.m ti.t.thanti~nca ma.m tva.m na passasi. 232. Now, making clear Maara's inability to do anything to her, she spoke the verse [beginning] I shall disappear. The meaning of this is: Maara, standing before you, I shall disappear, I shall go where you cannot see me. Or without your knowing it, I shall enter your belly. Or I shall stand between your eyebrows, and you will not see me standing there. verse: 233. "Cittamhi vasiibhuutaaha.m, iddhipaadaa subhaavitaa; cha.labhi~n~naa sacchikataa, kata.m buddhassa saasana.m. 233. I have mastery over my mind. I have developed the bases of supernormal power well. I have realized the six direct knowledges. I have done the Buddha's teaching. Cy: Kasmaati ce? Cittamhi vasiibhuutaaha.m, iddhipaadaa subhaavitaa, aha.m camhi maara, mayha.m citta.m vasiibhaavappatta.m, cattaaropi iddhipaadaa mayaa su.t.thu bhaavitaa bahuliikataa, tasmaa aha.m yathaavuttaaya iddhivisayataaya pahomiiti. Sesa.m sabba.m he.t.thaa vuttanayattaa uttaanameva. 233. How? I have mastery over (vasi-bhuutaaha.m) my mind. I have developed the bases of supernormal power well (subhaavitaa). And, Maara, I have attained mastery (vasi-bhaava-ppattaa) over my mind. The four bases of supernormal power have been well developed (su.t.thu bhaavitaa), much practised, by me. Therefore, I prevail as I have said through the sphere of supernormal power. All the rest is plain because the meaning has been spoken of before.* *For "the six direct knowledges," see Th-a III, p.49 ad v. 828. For "I have done the Buddha's teachings," see Th-a I 85 ad v.24. Uppalava.n.naatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa ni.t.thitaa. Dvaadasanipaatava.n.nanaa ni.t.thitaa. Here ends the commentary on the verses of Theri Uppalava.n.naa. Here ends the commentary on the section of twelve [verses]. ---peace, connie #75390 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 5:05 am Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge scottduncan2 SorryTep and Sarah: "vipainaama-dukkhataa" should be "viparinaama-dukkhataa." S. #75391 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 5:40 am Subject: [dsg] Re: satipatthana as island of refuge, non-self. indriyabala Dear Nina (Sarah, Scott & others) - You wrote a nice message of clear reflection. Tthank you for the kind understanding without blaming. > Nina: > Howard wrote a good post, explaining that there is not nothing. I > remind myself that what we take for a person is: citta, cetasika and > rupa that arise and fall away. But I realize that this is still > thinking, not as convincing as to directly realize the truth of the > present moment as void of a self. > I follow your discussion with interest, I find it important. I see your approach to be abhidhamma-based; in that perception domain you consider only the three realities that rise and fall. In my view (as explained in length to Scott) it is perfect for the ariyans, but not sufficient (inadequate) for worldlings who are not beyond the world. Thank you for paying attention to the discussion; I always learn from your feedback. Yes, I will study 'Kaeng Krachan for the second time'. Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Tep, > The truth of non-self is difficult for all who are non-ariyans. > Lodewijk asked many questions you may like to follow on 'Kaeng Kracan > for the second time'. Kh Sujin said that if one has realized the four > noble truths, that is at enlightenment, there will be no doubt. She > also said that it is very, very difficult to get rid of the idea of > non-self. I was glad she said that. We may understand it in theory, > but to really apply it in all its consequences is difficult. #75392 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 5:58 am Subject: Asoka, Ch 2, no 5 nilovg Dear friends, Akusala citta and kusala citta can motivate deeds through body, speech or mind. These deeds are called kamma, but when we are more precise, kamma is actually the intention or volition (cetanå cetasika) which motivates an unwholesome or a wholesome deed. Akusala kamma and kusala kamma can produce results later on in the form of unpleasant rebirth or pleasant rebirth or in the course of life, in the form of unpleasant or pleasant experiences through the senses. Vipåkacittas are cittas which are results of kamma. Seeing is vipåkacitta, it experiences an unpleasant or a pleasant object through the eyesense, and it is the same with the other sense- cognitions. It is hard to tell whether seeing or hearing which arises now is kusala vipåka or akusala vipåka, since cittas arise and fall away extremely rapidly. Seeing experiences visible object, but seeing is not the only citta experiencing visible object; it arises within a process or series of cittas, all of which experience visible object. The object is experienced by vipåkacittas, kiriyacittas and kusala cittas or akusala cittas. Cittas arise and fall away succeeding one another. There never is a moment without citta. After the vipåkacitta which is seeing has fallen away akusala cittas or kusala cittas experience visible object in an unwholesome way or wholesome way. When an object is pleasant there is likely to be attachment and when an object is unpleasant there is likely to be aversion. After an object has been experienced through a sense-door it is experienced through the mind- door. All this concerns our daily life, even at this very moment. As soon as we have seen or heard there is likely to be attachment, even though we do not notice it. We have accumulated attachment during countless lives and thus there are conditions for its arising on account of the experience of the sense objects. We notice attachment when it is strong, when we like to possess something, but there are many shades and degrees of attachment and it may be so subtle that we do not notice it. When we are not engaged with kusala, wholesomeness, the sense-cognitions (seeing, hearing, etc.) are followed by akusala cittas, cittas with attachment, aversion and ignorance. It is important to have more understanding of akusala and of kusala which arises in our life. Generosity (dåna), morality (síla), and mental development (bhåvana) are ways of kusala. Studying the Dhamma, tranquil meditation and vipassanå, the development of insight, are included in bhåvana. Thus, when we are thinking and the objective is not one of these ways of kusala, we think with akusala cittas. When we study the Dhamma we come to realize that we have many more akusala cittas than kusala cittas. Truthfulness is one of the perfections the Bodhisatta accumulated and it is a perfection we too should accumulate. We should be truthful, sincere with regard to the akusala we have accumulated. Without the Buddha’s teachings we would be ignorant about the akusala cittas which arise. They can be objects of right understanding, they are nåmas arising because of conditions, they are non-self. ********* Nina. #75393 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 8:20 am Subject: Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness (old post of Suan) abhidhammika Dear Jon, Mike N, Nina, Sarah, Howard, Scott D, Rob K, Ken H, Chris F, James How are you? Jon asked: "However, I'd like to ask about the development of samatha for it's own sake, not necessarily with any thought about the imminent attainment of jhana. What do the texts have to say about samatha per se, as a form of kusala to be developed, and particularly as to whether an ordinary lay life would be any impediment to that?" Mike also concurred with Jon: "Really glad you asked this--I've thought for a long time that samathabhaavanaa is a fine thing for laypeople to do and that it should be kusala kamma if properly understood. I've never been sure that this is consistent with the texts, though." In the Pali texts, development of samaadhi is invariably associated with samatha and vipassanaa. And, when they talk about samatha as a line of pursuit, they want to mean samaadhi all the way to the level of worldly Jhaana or samatha Jhaana. As you can imagine, a pursuer of samatha Jhaana will have passed through levels of sammadhi below the First Jhaana. So, yes, the Pali texts do imply the feasibility of samaadhi being developed as a form of kusala cetasika to the best of one's capability. Regarding whether or not an ordinary lay life would be any impediment to samatha, we need to look back at the 600 BC Indian society where caste duties were (still are in 21st century) imposed on the people. So, yes, the Pali texts would imply an ordinary lay life under a caste system being impediment to samatha pursuit. But, in the western world and the non-Indian societies where individuals are free from the caste system, and free to pursue their ambitions, remaining a lay person is not necessarily an impediment to samatha practice. If the free lay individuals can resolve the livelihood issues, the relationship issues, the householder issues, and the socialisation issues, and if they like what Visuddhimagga has to teach, and if they are consistent and persistent enough, then they can pursue samatha practice to their heart's content either to the level of Jhaana or anywhere below the First Jhaana. These types of non-ordained lay individuals are called `isi, hermits.' Bodhisatta Sumedhaa (later to become Gotama the Buddha) was such an isi, a non-ordained lay person with attainments of Jhaanas and Iddhis (superhuman powers). With kind regards, Suan www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: Hi Nina and Suan Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Jon, Swee Boon, and all, > I found on Rob's study forum an interesting post touching on this > subject. > Nina, many thanks for mentioning this old post of Suan's. Very much to the point. > ----------- > Suan's old post: > > How are you? > > I notice Brahamali's article regarding Jhaana controversy on Samatha > forum. The problem with those who insist on samatha jhaanas as > prerequisite for vipassanaa seems to be their failure to understand > the reason behind the practice of samatha to the level of jhaana > attainment. > > I am saying the above as one who would indulge in proper samatha > practice in pursuit of jhaana accomplishment in the first available > opportunity that is not possible in my current western lifestyle for > the time being. To persue Samatha Jhaana in a western society like > Australia, you either need to be rich enough to overcome any concerns > related to livelihood or be brave enough to be able to survive as an > outcast, perhaps living in the desert far away from western > civilization. As I am neither of both, realistic samatha practice > proper is out of my reach as things stand now. Suan, I agree with your sentiments above as far as they apply to the attainment of jhana, namely that, speaking generally, jhana cannot be attained unless the impediments have been removed. However, I'd like to ask about the development of samatha for it's own sake, not necessarily with any thought about the imminent attainment of jhana. What do the texts have to say about samatha per se, as a form of kusala to be developed, and particularly as to whether an ordinary lay life would be any impediment to that? Jon PS I appreciated your comments on the Gha.tikaara Sutta (MN 81). #75394 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 3:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions, Ch 11, no 1. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 8/21/07 5:42:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > Sorry to you and all for the doubles, caused by resending after yahoo > troubles. > First of all, in your other post, what is random insight? Random is a > goal or aim? but it is perhaps no big deal, just a remark. --------------------------------------------- Howard: I was using that expression in a very particular way. I did *not* mean insight "arising without cause". What I meant was"insight arising with no conditions that depend on willing". As I see the matter, regularly studying the dhamma, being mindful of what arises in the mind, encouraging and furthering kusala states, discouraging and cutting short akusala states, calming the mind through careful observation of sila, and engaging in various forms of what I and many others call "meditation" are intentional, conventional activities whose "elements," in concert, lead to the eventual arising of insight sufficient for awakening, but not engaging in such intentional cultivation and merely waiting for conditions-for-insight to (somehow) arise is fruitless. It is such alleged wisdom, wisdom arising without such practices (ever) that I refer to as "random insight". I, in fact, do not believe in it. I believe that the conventionally volitional activities outlined above, engaged in at *some* time, possibly only in a prior life, are requisite for the eventual arising of liberating wisdom. I also believe that since we have no idea of, and cannot depend on, what went on during prior lives, and since wholesome activities are always to the good, we should engage in wholesome activities as outlined by the Buddha right here and now. ------------------------------------------------ > > Op 20-aug-2007, om 15:57 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > > >Whatever the "conascent cetana" AS DESCRIBED may be, I do not think of > >it as kamma, or, for that matter, even as intention/volition > >(willing). For > >me, and as I have encountered it in the suttas, kamma = cetana = > >willing = > >volition. I see it as an impulse or "pushing," directing activities > >in some > >direction or other. I see it less as a coordinating than as a > >directed energizing. > >It is the "controlling" nature of cetana that fools us into > >thinking and > >feeling that there is an underlying agent/controller. > -------- > N: in order to understand the different cetasikas and their functions > we have to consider with what type of citta they arise. They are very > different as they arise with kusala, akusala, vipaaka or kiriya, they > are of the same class or jaati as the citta they accompany. For > example feeling: it is very different when it is vipaaka or akusala > or kusala. > And so is cetanaa very different according as it accompanies > different cittas. It is conditioned by citta and the other cetasikas > by way of conascence. > You say , it directs or coordinates as it were > the tasks of the other nama dhammas. When it is kusala or akusala > cetanaa it has a double task. When it motivates a deed it is > accumulated as a force that conditions result later on. > See the Intro of the Dhammasangani where the term force is used, and > also U Narada's Guide to Conditional Relations. > It is not an agent or person. > ----------------------------------------- Howard: Of course. :-) It is mere impersonal impulse. In fact, nothing is personal, though much seems to be. ----------------------------------------- Several other conditions are operating > > for kusala kamma or akusala kamma to produce result. Take natural > decisive support-condition. And think of the four factors that have > influence: time and place of birth etc. > When we understand more about conditions there is less inclination to > thinking of a controller. --------------------------------------- Howard: We are entirely "on the same page" as regards the non-existence of a controller, Nina. I do not believe in such intellectually, and once, just briefly and without subsequent repetition, the mechanisms that impose the sense of agency were interrupted, and there was a witnessing of the utter absence of a personal self - no actor, no controller, no knower ... quite shocking when actually experienced, even shattering. So I have no doubt that there is no controller, Nina. And thinking that there is such is not a requirement for engaging in intentional activities, though it might seem otherwise to some. ---------------------------------------- > Nina. > =================== With metta, Howard #75395 From: "nidive" Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 9:31 am Subject: [dsg] Re: satipatthana as island of refuge nidive Hi Jon, > But I don't follow in what sense you say that the music is real. > Surely what is experienced (heard) is just one note at a time, > with each note having passed away before its successor is > experienced. And it is because of the memory of the past notes > that the present notes are seen as part of the same 'piece' and > enjoyed as such. A lot of mental processing must go on in order > to make up the experience of listening to a piece of music. When listening to music, I am not aware of being consciously having to recall my memory of the prior note in order to enjoy the present note. If listening to music is such a difficult and excruciating task, no one would ever listen to music. Likewise, when seeing my beautiful wallpaper on the computer screen, I am not aware of being consciously having to recall my memory of pixel number X in order to enjoy the whole image. The Buddha didn't teach Abhidhammic Robotics. What he taught is simple. Whatever is heard through the ear, that is the external ear ayatana. Whatever is seen through the eye, that is the external eye ayatana. Swee Boon #75396 From: "nidive" Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 9:41 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness nidive Hi Howard, > Originally, I took this sutta to be describing a middle-way mode > of practice, avoiding extremes, but I now strongly doubt that as > simplistic. I think a sotapanna would also know how to avoid extremes (he has basic direct knowledge of dependent origination), yet a sotapanna is not said to have 'crossed over the floods'. > I must say that I am mightily impressed and rather much persuaded > by what you write here, Swee Boon. It is clever (in the good > sense), it hangs together well, and it certainly is not only a > plausible reading but one which, for me, is eye-opening. :-) Swee Boon #75397 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: satipatthana as island of refuge nilovg Hi Larry, there are so many aspects of viewing feeling and other realities. Perversity of sa~n~naa shows us that sa~n~naa deceives us. As to feeling and sa~n~naa, we also read in a sutta that what one feels about one remembers and so arise many obsessions. And this is true. Strong feelings about an event causes one to remember it. All this is not in contradiction to the D.O. which has a specific classification of realities to show us the conditions for being in the cycle. Nina. Op 21-aug-2007, om 2:16 heeft LBIDD@... het volgende geschreven: > I won't press my argument that perception is a > far better candidate than feeling for decisive support condition for > craving since it is so contrarian. I found it very helpful. #75398 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 11:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions, Ch 11, no 1. nilovg Hi Howard, what you write is clear. I started to explain more about cetana because I thought that you took the Abh. explanation of cetana as a little self, an actor, underlying agent. But this was not your intention, I see now from your post. Op 21-aug-2007, om 16:54 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > We are entirely "on the same page" as regards the non-existence of a > controller, Nina. ------- H: but not engaging in such intentional cultivation and merely waiting for conditions-for-insight to (somehow) arise is fruitless. It is such alleged wisdom, wisdom arising without such practices (ever) that I refer to as "random insight" ------ N: Waiting for insight: no, useless, that is lobha. The emphasis is on understanding more and more and that cannot be hastened. What one hears and studies has to sink in, it is a process. Thanks for your post, Nina. #75399 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 11:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: satipatthana as island of refuge, non-self. nilovg Dear Tep, Op 21-aug-2007, om 14:40 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > I see your approach to be abhidhamma-based; in that perception > domain you consider only the three realities that rise and fall. In my > view (as explained in length to Scott) it is perfect for the > ariyans, but not > sufficient (inadequate) for worldlings who are not beyond the world. ---------- N: Yes I see, at least intellectually that a person is citta, cetasika and rupa. It helps me to understand more about the details of the different conditions. Even while Lodewijk, Scott, you and I discuss, what we think and utter in speech or writing is very different. That is because of different conditions for the cittas that motivate such actions. What was accumulated in the past conditions cittas today. In this way we could speak of different individuals. But it is good to remember that cittas with their accumulated inclinations arise and fall away, that they are never the same. Nina.