#77000 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 2:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 195, 196 and Tiika. nilovg Hi Larry, Op 2-okt-2007, om 0:03 heeft LBIDD@... het volgende geschreven: > "Text Vis.195: Or because sound is not regularly present since it is > only sometimes manifested, ..." > > One thing that may have been overlooked is that as long as there is a > living body there is the sound of the heart and lungs, at least. -------- N: Sound is not manifest at the moment of rebirth-consciousness. For the embriyo lying in the womb the ruupas at rebirth are as tiny as a drop of oil on a strand of wool, not yet what we call heart or lungs. The matter is more complex, because we have to take into account all kinds of births in different planes of existence. But anyway, sound is not manifest all the time. Nina. #77001 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 2:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "there is no ‘person’" - "The controversy on ‘person’ is ended" sarahprocter... Hi Tep & All, --- Tep Sastri wrote: > > > (VisA. 298): "Here when the categories are not fully known, there > is naming (abhidhaana) of them and of the consciousness as 'self,' <...> > "Anatta According to Theravaada" by Ñanamoli Thera. > > You can find the article at the ATI Web site. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/various/wheel202.html .... S: Thx for the link. Lots of good material in it. Let me add an extra 3 lines (as quoted in the article) to the beginning of the passage you quoted and then we have: "Individual self-hood" (atta-bhaava) is what the physical body is called; or it is simply the pentad of categories, since it is actually only a descriptive device derived (upaada-pa~n~natti) upon the pentad of categories (Vis. Ch. IX/p. 310). "Here when the categories are not fully known, there is naming (abhidhaana) of them and of the consciousness as 'self,' that is, the physical body or alternatively the five categories... (it is) presence (sabbhaava) as a mere description in the case of what is called a 'being' (bhaata), though in the ultimate sense the 'being' is non-existent (avijjamaana)" (VisA. 298). .... S: This can be found in Vism 1X, 58, also translated by Ven Nanamoli. In the translated Vism, it starts off: "Personality (attabhaava) is what the physical body is called; or it is just the pentad of aggregates, since it is actually only a concept derived from the pentad of aggregates." The note to this (in full, inc. the commentary to it, referred to above) gives: "Here when the aggregates are not fully understood, there is naming (abhidhaana) of them and of the consciousness of them as self (attaa), that is to say, the physical body or alternatively the five aggregates. "Dervived from": apprehending, gripping, making a support. "Since it is actually a mere concept": because of presence (sabbhaavato) as a mere concept in what is called a being, though in the highest sense the "being" is non-existent' (Pm. 298). See also Ch. V111, n.11)." S: Conveniently, Scott quoted the relevant text for this note in full recently, plus the note 11, (which Larry also quoted). http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/68584 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/18778 >Visuddhimagga, VII, 39: "As to the shortness of the moment: in the ultimate sense the life moment of living beings is extremely short, being only as much as the occurence of a single conscious moment. Just as a chariot wheel, when it is rolling, rolls [that is touches the ground] only on one point of [the circumference of] its tyre, and, when it is at rest, rests only on one point, so too, the life of living beings lasts only for a single conscious moment. When that consciousness has ceased, the being is said to have ceased, according as it was said: 'In a past conscious moment he did live, not he does live, not he will live. In a future conscious moment not he did live, not he does live. In a present conscious moment not he did live, he does live, not he will live. "'Life, person, pleasure, pain - just these alone Join in one conscious moment that flicks by. Ceased aggregates of those dead or alive Are all alike, gone never to return. No [world is] born if [consciousness is] not Produced; when that is present, then it lives; When consciousness dissolves, the world is dead: The highest sense this concept will allow' (Nd.1,42)." N. 11 (~Naa.namoli): "'Person' (atta-bhaava) is the states other than the already-mentioned life, feeling and consciousness. The words 'just these alone' mean that it is unmixed with self (attaa) or permanence' (Pm. 242). Attaa-bhaava as used in the Suttas and in this work is more or less a synonym for sakkaaya in the sense of person (body and mind) or personality, or individual form. "'When consciousness dissolves, the world is dead': just as in the case of the death-consciousness, this world is also called 'dead' in the hightest (ultimate) sense with the arrival of any consciousness whatever at its dissolution, since its cessation has no rebirth-linking (is 'cessation never to return'). Nevertheless, though this is so, 'the highest sense this concept will allow' (pa~n~natti paramatthiyaa)' - the ultimate sense will allow this concept of continuity, which is what the expression of common usage 'Tissa lives, Phussa lives' refers to, and which is based on consciousnesses [momentarily] existing along with a physical support; this belongs to the ultimate sense here, since, as they say, 'It is not the name and surname that lives' (Pm 242 and 801)."< ***** S: Thanks again for the link and useful quote. I'm glad to see so many friends with an interest in the Visuddhimagga these days. Metta, Sarah p.s Phil, looking forward to your Vism. 'Ayatanas Corner' one day! No hurry! ========= #77002 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 3:01 am Subject: equanimity. nilovg Dear DC and Han, I am not able to repeat my old message to Han about this, since I am not good at retrieving old messages. Sorry, I am lacking time and have to limit myself. NIna. #77003 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 3:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Controversy? sarahprocter... Hi Colette, --- colette wrote: > I HAVE ALWAYS GOTTEN, RECEIVED, THE SENSE, FEELING, INTUITION, THAT > THE MEMBERS OF THIS GROUP ARE HIGHLY SKIDDISH OF REALITY. .... S: Hmmm - you'd have to elaborate.... I LOVE the topic of REALITY! What is reality now, Colette? (Clue: remember those namas and rupas we were discussing.....!!) ... >This being > the case, at some point in the developement of this group there must > have come about an advocacy for non-action, doing nothing as an > action, indecision, riding the fence between two oposing sides, > sitting on your hands. I can't explain it. Next time the sensation > appears I'll try to document it. .... S: Pls do. I haven't seen anyone advocating non-action, though I have seen a few cross arrows suggesting others are advocating non-action. In the end, whether active or non-active, sitting or running, protesting or staying quietly at home, there are still the same REALITIES to be known. Still just experiences through 6 door-ways! ..... > BTW, thanx for clearing up discrepencies I have with kamma! ... S: Thx for this kind note. Pls join in my discussion with DC anytime too! Metta, Sarah ======== #77004 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 3:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: An Introduction to Buddhism- 1 sarahprocter... Hi Scott (& Tep), --- Scott Duncan wrote: > T: "...We also had a long discussion on indriyasa.mvara in AN 10.61 > (Avijja Sutta) as part of the sequential process in which the various > dhammas arise, one after another, as nutriments for the next one in > line, ... There are more suttas like AN 10.61..." > > Scott: I'd be interested in learning more of this. I'll seek the > discussion in U.P. .... S: Tep may be able to give you links to the particular discussions he has in mind. Also, see 'Guarding the senses.....indriyasamvara' in U.P. As you all rightly concluded, the AN suttas don't have titles in the Pali, as B.Bodhi himself explained to me. So they have been given by the translators or editors/compilers. Metta, Sarah ========== #77005 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 4:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Using awareness and being mindful. sarahprocter... Hi Evie, Good to read your further reflections and kind wishes to all. Just one point only for now: --- Evie wrote: > I have read that in order to experience awareness and mindfulness, in > order to experience enlightenment towards nirvana... one must practice > meditation. .... S: I've read this too! I've also read that 'meditation' is one of those words that means something different to everyone. So what do you understand by the term? Can there be 'meditation' whilst you go about your ordinary daily tasks? Before, I also mentioned a little about anatta, not-self. I think there has to be a questioning of 'who' practices! .... >In order to understand these things and experience these > things, one must experience it themselves. Having enlightenment is not > something that can be written about but something that you must > experience yourself. .... S: I agree that enlightenment is not in the text-book. Whilst there is so very little understanding about the different phenomena that make up our lives at this moment, do we really have to be concerned about enlightenment? TIA for any further reflections. I'll look forward to chatting more to you after I return from India at the end of the month. Metta, Sarah ========== #77006 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 4:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: New Photos! sarahprocter... Hi Tep, --- Tep Sastri wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom > wrote: > > > > Dear Tep, > > you made me have such a good time, laughing. > > Maybe a friend can take your picture which you can send to James who > > can embellish it. > > Nina. > > T: That is a good idea, Nina. Yes, I am going to email the photos to > James tonight. .... S: Good News! James will be glad to assist, I know! He gave me some muscles as I sat at my computer once and gave Howard a Father Xmas hat! Now you can help us encourage some of the other shy regulars to follow suit, such as Swee Boon, DC, TG, Matheesha.....anyone else... Metta, Sarah ========= #77007 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 4:29 am Subject: Re: Citta scottduncan2 Dear colette, c: "...I really like the two posts you gave on this subject of Zero Duration. thank you." Scott: Glad you did, colette, you're welcome. Keep well. Sincerely, Scott. #77008 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 4:45 am Subject: [dsg] Re: An Introduction to Buddhism- 1 scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, Thank you: S: "Tep may be able to give you links to the particular discussions he has in mind." Scott: Yeah, I couldn't find it... S: "Also, see 'Guarding the senses.....indriyasamvara' in U.P." Scott: I read it. Good stuff. Sincerely, Scott. #77009 From: han tun Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 4:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Perfections Corner (18) hantun1 Dear DC (Nina, Tep), I will try to respond to your comments. ------------------------------ > > Han: There are many kinds of upekkhaa. > DC: First, I think the words used was "degrees of upekkhaa". That is different from kinds of upekkhaa. Again we can talk of a red apple, yellow apple etc. Still the concept of apple is common to all this. I was talking about upekkhaa which is the equivalent of the apple in the above example. Thank you for quoting Nina's comments. I must say before I comment that I am not very familiar with Nina's terminology and language. So I might misunderstand her. Please correct me if that is the case. ---------------------------- > > Nina's comment: this is not tatramajjhattataa, but indifferent feeling accompanying attachment. It is akusala. > DC: This is the first time I heard that upekkhaa is akusala. The statement (it is akusala) is without justification. It may not be akusala. I cannot understand how it is an akusala. The Paali is as follows: "ime kaamagune pa.ticca uppajjati upekkhaa aya.m vuccati bhikkhave, saamisaa upekkhaa," Bhikkhu Bodhi translates this as : " The equanimity that arises in dependence on these five cords of sensual pleasure: this is called 'carnal' equanimity." The word "carnal" used here may give the wrong impression. It really refers to the five cords of sensual pleasure. I leave you to judge whether the Comment above has any meaning. ------------------------------ Han: Yes, there are different “kinds” of upekkhaa. There are ten kinds of upekkhaas. For example, bojjhangupekkhaa which balances all bojjhangas just before enlightenment, is “different” from brahmavihaarupekkhaa which is one of the brahma-vihaaras. Yes, there is “akusala upekkhaa”. It is called a~naanupekkhaa (a~naana + upekkhaa). For example, when a father is indifferent to the bad son (or) if it is associated with ignorance, like a deer that would not know a ruby will not have attachment or aversion towards it, it is called akusala upekkhaa or a~naanupekkhaa. Another example is the “carnal” upekkhaa that Bhikkhu Bodhi had mentioned. =================== > > Nina's comment: this is the equanimity of the fourth jhaana. Tatramajjhattataa cetasika. DC: Agreed. The sutta calls it "niraamisaa upekkhaa". Bhikkhus Bodhi calls it "spiritual equanimity". Other worldly is not correct. It means it is not dependent on the five kaamgunaa. But internally generated. =================== >Nina's comment: This is the sixfold equanimity of the arahat who has no more defilements. Sixfold, referring to the senses and the mind-door. DC: Yes, it is the equanamity of the arahat. The sutta defines it as: "niraamisaa nirraamisatarra upekkha" Bhikkhu Bodhis calls it: "Equanimity more spiritual than the spiritual." Sixfold is meaningless. It is the nature of the arahants. All objects of perception (rrupa etc.) will produce only upekkhaa in an arahant. Han: Sixfold is not meaningless. It is called cha.langupekkhaa (cha+anga+upekkhaa), achieved only by the Arahants, when he develops perfection of equanimity to sense objects entering through six sense-doors. =================== > > Nina's comment: There are many different aspects to equanimity, no contradictions. The equanimity that is a perfection is tatramajjhattataa cetasika. Evenmindedness arisies with each kusala citta. But it is a perfection if the gaol is having less defilements, less lobha, dosa and moha. > DC: There are no different aspects to equanimity. Difference is in the circumstances, according to the sutta—aamisa, niraamisa etc. The second statement does not accord with the sutta. According to the sutta the perfection of equanimity is that of the arahant. But according to the second statement above it is "tara...cetasika" which is the equanimity of the fourth jhaana. I leave it to you to make your own conclusions. -------------------- Han: I have no difficulty in understanding the above Nina’s comments. As mentioned, there are many kinds of upekkhaas. For example, Tatramajjhattatupekkhaa is associated with kaamavacara kusala cittas. Jhaanupekkhaa is associated with third jhaana. Parisuddhupekkhaa is associated with fourth jhaana. Bojjhangupekkhaa (as mentioned above) arises just before enlightenment. Cha.langupekkhaa (cha+anga+upekkhaa) is the one achieved by the Arahants. ----- and so on. ------------------------------ Han: These are my comments. I do not profess I am an expert. I have an open mind, and will be prepared to be corrected if I am wrong. Respectfully, Han --- DC Wijeratna wrote: > Dear Han, > > Thank you very much for your e-m. > > I would like to make the following remarks. > #77010 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 4:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Controversy? sarahprocter... Dear DC, A pleasure discussing Dhamma with you, DC! --- DC Wijeratna wrote: > >S: Just out of inteterest, who is 'we' here and below? > > DC: I am sorry, I used it really to mean 'I' and 'me'. I thought it is > more polite to speak that way. May be a Ceylonism. So you can substitute > "I" for "we." ... S: Thank you for clarifying. No problem at all with the 'Royal we' Ceylonism, now I know. .... > >Sarah: > >We understand > > it this way because "I declare, O Bhikkhus, that volition (cetanaa) is > > Kamma. Having willed one acts by body , speech and thought." (AN iii) > > [cetanaaha.m bhikkhave vadaami kamma.m, cetayitvaa karoti kamma.m > > kaayena, vvacaaya manasaa] > .... > >S: I would have thought this supported my comment above. > > DC: What I wanted to draw your attention is to the second sentence > above: "Having willed one acts ..." > This makes "willing" and "action" two different things. First is an > action completed prior to the action. .... S: I understand that cetana (kamma) leads to the completed action (kamma patha) through body, speech or mind. .... > > Sarah: See also, under 'Karma' in Nyantiloka's dictionary, > (widely-used in Sri > Lanka for several decades now:-)) and tell me if you disagree with it: > > DC: Ven. Nyanatiloka is a venerable bhikkhu for whom I have the highest > respect. Because of reverence to him, I am really not very happy to > discuss this issue. Having said that, the answer to your request is: > "Yes, I disagree." Given below are some points on which I disagree. .... S: No problem (the disagreement). There are some entries which I disagree with too. Here, I thought the entries were helpful and accurate. .... > >Sarah: 'action', correctly speaking denotes the wholesome and > unwholesome > volitions (kusala- and akusala-cetanaa) and their concomitant mental > factors, causing rebirth and shaping the destiny of beings.[BD] > > DC: This is an Abhidhammic analysis and has no relevance. The language > of the passage under discussion is "vohara." .... S: I think it is consistent with the suttas we've both quoted, such as the lines above. I agree, however, that as you reject the Abhidhamma, there's a limit to how far we can take our discussion:-) .... > ======== > >S: In the Dhp verse, when it says mano (mind, i.e citta) is the > forerunner, it is referring to how citta/mano is the 'chief' which leads > the accompanying cetasikas. One of these cetasikas is cetanaa. The Dhp. > verse is not referring to rupas at all and neither is cetanaa/kamma. <....> > DC: I must start with this preface: Citta, cetasika is Abhidhammic > analysis and as I mentioned earlier it is not relevant here. .... S: !! ... >But just to > show the basis of my comment: mano, citta and vi~n~naa.na are used in > the Suttas interchangeably. It is a mere name or a designation. These > are terms used in the sutta pi.taka to denote what in English is called > the mind. In the pancakkhandha analysis it is divided into, vedanaa, > sa~n~naa.. etc. .... S: I agree with these comments (though of course, what is generally referred to as 'the mind' has nothing to do with mano/citta/vi~n~naa.na). .... > > Reference "it is referring to ....cetasikas". This is your own > interpretation and cannot be considered a literal translation of the > Paali verse. The rest of the statements are more or less the same. ... S: On the contrary, I would say (referring to the above Dhp verse), that the comments I gave are in line with the text and the Paali! To elaborate, I said: > >S: In the Dhp verse, when it says mano (mind, i.e citta) is the > forerunner, it is referring to how citta/mano is the 'chief' which leads > the accompanying cetasikas. One of these cetasikas is cetanaa. The Dhp. > verse is not referring to rupas at all and neither is cetanaa/kamma. ... S: The Paali (transl and note by Daw Mya Tin, Myanmar: "Manopubba"ngamaa dhammaa* manose.t.thaa manomayaa manasaa ce padu.t.thena..**" "All mental phenomena have mind as their forerunner; they have mind as their chief; they are mind-made....." Notes: *"manopubba"ngamaa dhammaa: All mental phenomena have Mind as their forerunner in the sense that Mind is the most dominant, and it is the cause of the other three mental phenomena, namely, Feeling (vedanaa), Perception (sa~n~naa) and Mental Formations or Mental Concomitants (sa"nkhaara). These three have Mind or Consciousness (vi~n~naa.na) as their forerunner, because although they arise simultaneously with Mind they cannot arise if Mind does not arise. (The Commentary). **"manasaa ce padu.t.thena (verse 1) and manasaa ce pasannena (verse 2): Manasaa here means intention or volition (cetanaa); volition leads one to the performance of volitional actions, both good and evil. This volition and the resultant action constitute kamma; and kamma always follows one to produce results. Cakkupaala's blindness (verse 1) was the consequence of his having acted with an evil intention in a previous existence and Ma.t.thukaundali's happy existence in Tavatimsa celestial world (verse 2) was the result of his mental devotion (manopasaada) to the Buddha." .... > > Action and > > "vedanaa" Two separate and distinct dimensions of naama-ruupa. I hope > I > > have made myself clear. > .... > S: I'm sorry, but you'd have to clarify what the nama is here and what > the > rupa. Again, I'd be glad to know of the source and where the idea comes > from. > > DC: Namaa-ruupa is what is sometimes called psycho-physical-personality. <...> S: I meant, pls clarify whether you are suggesting the action (kamma) or the vedanaa are the ruupa 'dimension' of naama-ruupa. ......... > Again, pls see Nyantiloka's dictionary under 'kamma-patha' : > > "kamma-patha > > DC: kamma patha and kamma are obviously two different things and has no > relevance to the subject under discussion. .... S: You gave some examples on daana: One may think of offering a gift. There is intention (cetana/kamma), but no kamma-patha, no gift is given, or the gift is not accepted. I'll greatly look forward to reading any reply and your further discussions with others. I may not be able to pursue the topic for a while as I hope to catch up with replies to many old posts before we leave Hong Kong. Metta, Sarah ======= #77011 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 1:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Is teaching of single rebirth-consciousness from abhidhamma only? upasaka_howard Hi, Phil - In a message dated 10/2/2007 1:09:49 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, philco777@... writes: Hi all (ps to Howard) For once a question instead of shooting off my mouth. I came across a sutta, AN IV, 232, which has ""Here someone generates both an afflictive volitional formation of body speech, or mind and an unafflictive volitional formation of body, speech and mind. Having done so, he is reborn in a world that is both afflictive and unafflictive." This doesn't seem to fit with the teaching of a single rebirth consciousness. How could a single patissandhi citta have both afflictive and unafflictive roots? Is there something akin to the patisandhi citta in the suttanta? I know questions about the way khamma works are considerable imponderables but this seems like a big point. Thanks in advance for any feedback. Phil. ================================== I don't see a postscript for me, Phil, but I do have a comment with regard to your main question anyway: I do not believe that the features of one's mindstate at the moment of birth are the sole determiners of the nature of that new lifetime. Such a view is based on the idea of contiguous separate, cittas each of which serves as a kind of "store-&-forward" packet as in network communications. From my perspective, not all conditionality is expressed in such an immediate successor-predecessor fashion. As regards conditionality, I believe in action-at-a-distance as well as contiguous conditioning, with occurrences even in the far past serving to condition what arises now and what will arise in the future. In particular, ones kamma (acts of intention and intentional actions) have been manifold in number, kind, and times of occurrence, and each of these kammic events, at the very time of its occurrence, already serves as one condition among many for future events. The state of mind at rebirth may be (entirely) kusala, yet much that is "unhappy" in the new lifetime is already conditioned by prior akusala kamma merely awaiting supportive conditions for fruition. If the "rebirth consciousness" were the sole determiner and it were also so that each mindstate is unmixed as regards kusala versus akusala, then you would be quite right, it seems to me, to wonder how the new life could possibly be of mixed character. With metta, Howard #77012 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 1:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is teaching of single rebirth-consciousness from abhidhamma only? upasaka_howard Hi, Phil - In a message dated 10/2/2007 1:25:04 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, philco777@... writes: > Hi all (ps to Howard) > ha. erased the ps. It was about having mentionned this sutta to Howard when he was dealing with termites in his basement and reflecting on the kammic implications of moving them out one way or another. I thought that an akusala kamma patha deed could be tempered if the wellbeing of those who were in our protection (in this case a grandchild) was involved. Metta, Phil ============================== Ahh! There'd the postscript! LOL! Yes, I certainly believe in offsetting kamma. BTW, an occasional cave cricket still shows up from time to time these days, maybe one or two in a month - there was one yesterday in our kitchen. We have all new windows in the house and no obvious entry points, yet somehow from time to time one gets in. Fortunately it is a very infrequent occurrence, and it is not such a bother to occasionally have to carry out my trap-&-remove operation! ;-) We're not alone in getting them. There seems to be bit of an infestation of them on Long Island. A good friend of mine also refrains from killing insects including these spider crickets, catching and removing them instead, even though spiders and spider look-a-likes are sources of aversion him. With meta, Howard #77013 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 5:22 am Subject: Re: Citta scottduncan2 Dear Tep, Thanks for the reply: T: "...I wanted to emphasize the special meaning of 'citta' that is more powerful than the 'single citta'." Scott: What do you mean? Which 'special meaning' of citta are you referring to? What is this meaning 'more powerful than the single citta'? T: "The word 'zero' means there is 'nothing' between two consecutive cittas. I remember seeing several past DSG messages which said :any ultimate reality rises and falls away so fast that there is no time gap between the rise-instant and the fall-instant." Scott: No, this doesn't seem correct to me. You've seemed to mix up two aspects of the process here. True there is no gap between the falling away of one citta and the arising of the next. This is 'anantara', meaning "having or leaving nothing in between i. e. immediately following, incessant, next, adjoining," (PTS PED). But there are the three sub-moments as noted in Message #76976. This is duration, not zero-duration. T: "The term 'moment' has to be defined carefully. Is it realistic for a single citta to arise with sati, and the second citta after that rises without sati?" Scott: This would depend on conditions. It is possible for conditions to be such that sati does not arise in the next moment. T: "...And if that is realistic, then how can there be an effect of restraint on the seeing (for example)?" Scott: For that moment, when sati arises, there is restraint. T: "Say, you are upset by my question. The moment you know that, you exercise mind restraint to be calm. Can that restraint happen in one moment of a single citta? That's my point..." Scott: This is the importance of really understanding that citta arises, has 'duration', and ceases to be followed immediately by the subsequent citta. Knowing this, one can side-step the sort of concern noted above. One doesn't fall into thoughts about being able to 'exercise mind restraint to be calm'. This is not possible. There is no willing dhammas to be thus and so. Why? Because they arise and cease on their own, due to conditions, and so quickly that by the time thoughts of doing this or doing that are considered, there is only thinking about exercising mind restraint to be calm'. Rather, should sati arise, then there is sense-restraint. Should this then conditions subsequent moments of consciousness such that a certain action of body or speech does not occur, then so be it. No one would have willed this to be so. Only impersonal dhammas, not subject to control, arising and ceasing in sequence and by conditions and with the effects concomitant to the characteristics of these dhammas. T: "..The choice of word, 'state' or 'series of citta', should not be an important issue, I guess." Scott: To the contrary, getting these terms straight and seeking precision in understanding at this level is very important. Sincerely, Scott. #77014 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 6:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Jetsons meet the Jetsons, they're a modern.... sarahprocter... Hi Colette & all, --- colette wrote: > GOOD MORNING SARAH AND GROUP, > > I AM READING THIS MASTERPIECE RIGHT NOW THAT IS TOTALLY COOL. .... S: !! ... > colette: IMPOSSIBLE! How can you say in one sentence "they have their > own characteristics" which clearly shows that you endow these things > that are visable with characteristics and then turn around and even > try to bamboozle the crowd with this slight of hand trick > saying "characteristic of visible object is also different from > seeing consciousness"? .... S: Isn't it true? Isn't the visible object seen at this moment different from the actual experiencing (seeing) of it? Don't they have different qualities? The visible object is just that which is seen. It doesn't know anything, it doesn't experience anything. It's just what appears through the eye-door. On the other hand, the quality of seeing consciousness is very different. It is never seen, but instead it experiences the visible object. When we're sleeping, no visible object appears (except through the mind in our dreams). .... >How can you congize, be conscious, to > dictate "their own characteristics" then say that "different from > seeing consciousness"? ... S: It's what the Buddha taught us and what we can prove at this very moment: there are realities (dhammas) which can experience objects and other realities, such as visible object, which can only ever be experienced. No atta (self) at all. .... >You or the person EITHER DID OR DID NOT, > CONGIZE OR exhibit distinguishing MARKS of being conscious. .... S: No 'me' or person that DID OR DID NOT. Merely different kinds of consciousness accompanied by mental factors such as perception (sanna) which mark the distinguishing characteristics. ... > ooops, gots ta go for the time being. Thanx for the fun this morning > Sarah. .... S: Likewise, fun chatting. I think I have one or two of your older posts in a pile to reply to soon. For others, I look forward to further chats after our trip, probably. Metta, Sarah p.s I meant to include your name amongst regulars who might like to add a photo to the member album. (Never mind if not). Ask James off-list if you wish to have asistance. All, as Chris once neatly put it: >C: The albums remind me of the metta sutta ... "Whatever breathing beings there may be. No matter whether they are frail or firm, With none excepted, be they long or big Or middle-sized, or be they short or small Or thick, as well as those seen or unseen, Or whether they are dwelling far or near" .... we're all here in the dsg photo album! Come and join us!< Metta, Sarah ========== #77015 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 6:25 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (68) nichiconn Dear Friends, part 1 of 15 13. Viisatinipaato XIII. The Section of the Groups of Twenty [Verses] 3. Caapaatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa 3. The commentary on the verses of Therii Caapaa txt: La.t.thihattho pure aasiiti-aadikaa caapaaya theriyaa gaathaa. Ayampi purimabuddhesu kataadhikaaraa tattha tattha bhave viva.t.tuupanissaya.m kusala.m upacinantii, anukkamena upacitakusalamuulaa sambhatavimokkhasambhaaraa hutvaa imasmi.m buddhuppaade va"ngahaarajanapade a~n~natarasmi.m migaluddakagaame je.t.thakamigaluddakassa dhiitaa hutvaa nibbatti, caapaatissaa naama.m ahosi. RD: She, too, having made her resolve under former Buddhas, and heaping up good of age-enduring efficacy in this and that rebirth, till she had accumulated the sources of good, and matured the conditions for emancipation, was, in this Buddha-age, reborn in the Vankahaara country, at a certain village of trappers, as the daughter of the chief trapper, and named Caapaa. *351 *351 Pronounce Chaapaa. The name of her native district has, so far, not been met with elsewhere. PRUITT: The verses beginning Formerly I carried an ascetic's staff are Therii Caapaa's. She too perfomed meritorious deeds under previous Buddhas and accumulated good [actions] in various lives as [her] basis for release. In due course, due to the fact of having accumulated merit, she accumulated the prerequisites for liberation. In this Buddha era, she was born as the daughter of the chief deer hunter in a certain village of deer hunters in the district of Va"ngahaara. She was named Caapaa ("bow"). txt: Tena ca samayena upako aajiivako bodhima.n.dato dhammacakka.m pavattetu.m baaraa.nasi.m uddissa gacchantena satthaaraa samaagato "vippasannaani kho te, aavuso, indriyaani, parisuddho chaviva.n.no pariyodaato, ka.msi tva.m, aavuso, uddissa pabbajito, ko vaa te satthaa, kassa vaa tva.m dhamma.m rocesii"ti (mahaava. 11; ma. ni. 1.285) pucchitvaa- RD: And at that time Upaka, an ascetic, *352 met the Master as he was going to Benares, there to set rolling from his Bo-tree throne *353 the Wheel of the Norm, and asked him: 'You seem, my friend, in perfect health! Clear and pure is your complexion. Wherefore have you, friend, left the world? or who may your teacher be? or whose doctrine do you believe in?' *352 An AAjiivaka (-ika), described in Dialogues of the Buddha, i. 221. *353 I.e., when he left the Bo-tree as Buddha and went to preach his first sermon at Isipatana by Benares. The meeting is told in Majjhima Nikaaya, i. 170, 171, and Vinaya Texts, i. 90. PRUITT: And at that time, the Aajivaka ("naked ascetic") Upaka met the Teacher as he was going from the Bohima.n.da ("seat of awakening") towards Baaraa.nasii to set in motion the wheel of the Doctrine. "Friend, your faculties are bright and the colour of your skin is clear and pure. Under whom did you go forth, friend? Who is your teacher? Whose doctrine do you approve of?" [Upaka] asked.* *Vin I 8 (BD IV 11), M I 170 (MLDB 263). === *CAF Rhys Davids: Psalms of the Sisters, with the Chronicle from the Commentary by Dhammapaala entitled 'The Elucidation of the Highest Meaning'. PTS 1909 @ http://digital.library.upenn.edu/women/davids/psalms/psalms.html *Wm Pruitt: The Commentary on the Verses of the Theriis: Theriigaathaa-A.t.thakathaa, Paramatthadiipanii VI by Aacariya Dhammapaala. PTS 1999 *txt/cy: vri === to be continued, connie #77016 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 6:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Upekkha. Perfections Corner (18) nilovg Dear Han and DC, I enjoyed the way Han answered. He also used another simile of the deer and the ruby I liked. I like it when several people each in their own way answer a question. This is also an easy way to find out more, Nyanatiloka's Buddhist dictionary: aupekkhÄ?: 'equanimity', also called tatra-majjhattatÄ? (q.v.), is an ethical quality belonging to the saá¹…khÄ?ra-group (s. khandha) and should therefore not be confounded with indifferent feeling (adukkha- m-asukhÄ? vedanÄ?) which sometimes also is called upekkhÄ? (s. vedanÄ?). upekkhÄ? is one of the 4 sublime abodes (brahma-vihÄ?ra, q.v.), and of the factors of enlightenment (bojjhaá¹…ga, q.v.). See Vis.M. IV, 156ff. upekkhÄ?-ñÄ?ṇa = saá¹…khÄ?rupekkhÄ?-ñÄ?ṇa (q.v.). upekkhÄ?-sambojjhaá¹…ga: 'equanimity as factor of enlightenment'; s. bojjhaá¹…ga. upekkhÄ?-sukha: 'equanimous happiness,' is the feeling of happiness accompanied by a high degree of equanimity (upekkhÄ?) as, e.g. in the 3rd absorption (jhÄ?na q.v.). upekkhÄ?-vedanÄ?: s. vedanÄ?. upekkhindriya: the 'faculty of indifference', is one of the 5 elements of feeling (M. 115) and therefore not to be confounded with the ethical quality 'equanimity', also called upekkhÄ? (q.v.). This is the link: Nina. Op 2-okt-2007, om 13:45 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > Han: There are many kinds of upekkhaa. #77017 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 6:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Is teaching of single rebirth-consciousness from abhidhamma only? nilovg Hi Howard and Phil, Op 2-okt-2007, om 14:06 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > The state of mind at rebirth may be (entirely) > kusala, yet much that is "unhappy" in the new lifetime is already > conditioned by > prior akusala kamma merely awaiting supportive conditions for > fruition. ------- N: This is right, except one point, the use of kusala for rebirth- consciousness. We have to say: kusala vipaakacitta, because it is the result of kusala kamma. This citta is not cause but result. It is vipaakacitta. The meaning is as you suggest: we have a happy rebirth, and that is in the human plane, but during life many different kammas have the opportunity to produce desirable results or undesirable results. That is common for all of us. We experience this every day. I have to laugh, because in one day there is both praise and blame for me. Howard, since I have your eye, you wondered before why listening, study and talking about Dhamma are conditions for the development of sati and pa~n~naa. Yes, they are. When different people ask me questions, I have to consider more, ponder more and that helps me. Also, going over all the details about the five khandhas in the Visuddhimagga study (Ch XIV) was most helpful to have more understanding that citta and cetasika perform their functions, not me. We are so used to an idea of I study, I do this or that. Learning about many details is helpful for me, I find. Nina. #77018 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 7:00 am Subject: Conditions, Ch 16, no 3. nilovg Dear friends, As regards dissociation-condition, vippayutta-paccaya, we read in the “Patthåna” (II, Analytical Exposition of Conditions, 20): The material states (rúpas) are related to the immaterial states (nåmas) by dissociation-condition. The immaterial states are related to the material states by dissociation-condition. This condition is altogether different from association-condition, since it pertains to nåma which conditions rúpa and to rúpa which conditions nåma. The nature of nåma is completely different from the nature of rúpa, they cannot condition one another by way of association. In the case of dissociation-condition, the conditioning factor can arise at the same time as the reality it conditions, it can arise before it or it can arise after it. Thus, dissociation- condition can be conascent, prenascent or postnascent. As regards conascent association-condition, the citta which produces rúpa is related to that rúpa by way of conascent dissociation-condition. When citta produces the rúpa which is speech, that rúpa arises together with the citta, it is conditioned by citta by way of conascence- condition and also by way of dissociation-condition. In the case of prenascent dissociation-condition, the conditioning factors, which are the sense-bases and the heart-base, have to arise before the conditioned dhamma, the citta which is dependent on them; thus, they condition citta by way of prenascent dissociation- condition. As we have seen, the heart-base at the first moment of life arises at the same time as the patisandhi-citta [1], it is conditioned by citta by way of conascent dissociation-condition. During life, however, the heart-base arises before the citta which is dependent on it [2]. When we feel pain we can be reminded that the body-base (bodysense) is rúpa which is dissociated from painful feeling which is nåma; the body-base conditions the painful feeling by way of prenascent dissociation-condition. When nåma and rúpa are not distinguished from each other we cling to a “whole” of mind and body, we take them for “mine” or “self” and they seem to last. We keep on thinking of “my sensitive body” and “my painful feeling”. The body-base which is the base for body-consciousness and the accompanying painful feeling, is only an extremely tiny rúpa which arises and falls away. Painful feeling does not last either, it falls away immediately. Thus, when we think of our painful feeling it has gone already. ------------ 1. Both the heart-base and the patisandhi-citta are produced by kamma at the same time. 2. The rúpas which are the five sense objects have to arise prior to the citta which is dependent on them, but they are external objects cognized by citta and the relation between them is not that of dissociation. Therefore, they are not included in prenascent dissociation-condition. See U Nårada, Guide to Conditional Relations, Ch II, 20 c, Base-Prenascence-Dissociation. ****** Nina. #77019 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 7:05 am Subject: Asoka, Ch 6, no 9. nilovg Dear friends, Sammå-samådhi, right concentration is one of the factors of the eightfold Path. It performs its function of focussing on the nåma or rúpa which is the object of right understanding, sammå-ditthi. At the same time sammå-sati is mindful of that object, right thinking, sammå- sankappa, “touches” the object so that sammå-ditthi can understand it, and right effort, sammå-våyåma, is the effort or energy for right understanding. These five cetasikas among the eight factors perform their functions when right understanding is being developed. The three factors of right speech, sammå-våcå, right action, sammå- kammanta, and right livelihood, sammå-åjíva pertain to the síla of the eightfold Path. There is no self who can try to concentrate on nåma and rúpa, right concentration is ekkaggatå cetasika performing its function. We should remember that the factors of the eightfold Path are cetasika paramattha dhamma, non-self. The “Visuddhimagga” (XI, 121) explains that one of the benefits of the development of concentration is serving as the proximate cause for insight. When one reads this one may believe that everybody should develop jhåna as a condition for insight, but, as we have seen, it depends on one’s accumulated inclination whether one will develop jhåna or not. Moreover, also when one does not develop jhåna, sammå-samådhi is the proximate cause of paññå, since it performs its function while it accompanies paññå. As right understanding develops sammå-samådhi develops as well, and when lokuttara citta arises at the moment of enlightenment, sammå-samådhi has the degree of appanå- samådhi, absorption concentration. Its strength can be compared with absorption concentration which accompanies the jhånacitta of the first stage of jhåna. However, its object is not a meditation subject of samatha, but it is nibbåna. It has this strength of concentration because of the right conditions, namely the development of vipassanå to the degree that enlightenment can be attained. Samådhi which accompanies jhånacitta in samatha is not the proximate cause of paññå of the eightfold Path. It is right concentration, but not right concentration of the eightfold Path. The aim of samatha is not the understanding of nåma and rúpa as impermanent, dukkha and non-self. We should consider what the goal is in our life: the understanding of this moment of seeing, hearing, thinking, visible object, sound or any other paramattha dhamma which appears now. ******** Nina. #77020 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 4:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Is teaching of single rebirth-consciousness from abhidhamma only? upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 10/2/2007 9:45:04 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard and Phil, Op 2-okt-2007, om 14:06 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > The state of mind at rebirth may be (entirely) > kusala, yet much that is "unhappy" in the new lifetime is already > conditioned by > prior akusala kamma merely awaiting supportive conditions for > fruition. ------- N: This is right, except one point, the use of kusala for rebirth- consciousness. We have to say: kusala vipaakacitta, because it is the result of kusala kamma. This citta is not cause but result. It is vipaakacitta. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, I understand that, and I accept that as true. ------------------------------------------------- The meaning is as you suggest: we have a happy rebirth, and that is in the human plane, but during life many different kammas have the opportunity to produce desirable results or undesirable results. That is common for all of us. We experience this every day. I have to laugh, because in one day there is both praise and blame for me. Howard, since I have your eye, you wondered before why listening, study and talking about Dhamma are conditions for the development of sati and pa~n~naa. ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Oh, no, Nina. I'm sorry that I was unclear. I certainly agree they are conditions for both. I just do not consider them to be sufficient. ------------------------------------------------------ Yes, they are. When different people ask me questions, I have to consider more, ponder more and that helps me. Also, going over all the details about the five khandhas in the Visuddhimagga study (Ch XIV) was most helpful to have more understanding that citta and cetasika perform their functions, not me. We are so used to an idea of I study, I do this or that. Learning about many details is helpful for me, I find. Nina. ============================ With metta, Howard #77021 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 11:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Some Findings About Self and Self Views nilovg Hi Howard, an interesting point, I have to consider this more. I try to formulate some thoughts about it, but it is more thinking aloud. Do not take it too seriously, which you don't anyway ;-)) Op 2-okt-2007, om 6:30 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > I'm very much mistaken, I don't really think Jon (or Sarah or Nina > or Khun > Sujin) truly believe that consciousness is directly experienced, > but they want to > think that believe it! From what I have read, they believe that a > citta is > known as object (right) after it has ceased. They say there is > direct knowing > of the "just passed" citta. I, however, say that one cannot > directly take as > object of consciousness what no longer exists, and an already > ceased citta > *does not exist*. --------- N: The Buddha taught us to develop more understanding of seeing, thinking, feeling, etc. so that they can be realized as impermanent and non-self. Seeing that has just fallen away is gone forever, but there is again seeing and again seeing. We do not mind which seeing is the object of awareness, but its charactreistic appears, stands out. It can be known as a reality that experiences colour. Thus, we do not count, that is impossible and complicated. In between the many times that there is seeing, sati can 'slip in' and be aware of its characteristic. We all know that right at the moment of seeing there cannot be sati or pa~n~naa that realizes its characteristic. There can be only one citta at a time knowing one object. But, we do not have to do complicated reasoning. It can be known for example that hearing has a characteristic diffeent from seeing. And what about seeing now? You do not have to think much about it. If it would not be possible to know seeing as it is the eightfold Path could not be followed. What about some slight aversion now? It goes immediately, but it arises many times again although we still think that it is the same aversion that lasts for a while. We underestimate the fastness of cittas that arise and fall away and arise again. If the Buddha had not taught us, we would not know. If you like call it fresh memory or photocopy, it does not matter how you call it. What matters is: knowing characteristics, characteristics of nama and of rupa which are different. This will lead to detachment from the idea of a whole we take for self. Nina. #77022 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 10:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Some Findings About Self and Self Views upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - I agree with you when you write in a message dated 10/2/2007 2:15:02 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, the following: If you like call it fresh memory or photocopy, it does not matter how you call it. What matters is: knowing characteristics, characteristics of nama and of rupa which are different. This will lead to detachment from the idea of a whole we take for self. ============================= With metta, Howard #77023 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 2:45 pm Subject: Re: Buddha Gotama, a Once Returner? rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > > Hello all. > > I have heard from Ajahn Brahm that Buddha Gotama was a Sakadagamin. > At first I was aversive to the idea… Then I've heard Ven Dhamavudho > say the reasons that Buddha Gotama, an Arahant and perfectly > enlightened one, was a Sakadagamin when he came to Earth for his last > birth. > Any comments, suggestions, additions? > > Dear Alex Suggestion:I think the best suggestion I can give is to try to learn what the Pali texts say. Comment: The idea that the Bodhisatta was already a sakadagami before his last life is nonsense according to Theravada. Addition: It takes time to know what is right and wrong. Robert #77024 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 4:16 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Puggala pa~n~natti indriyabala Dear DC, - I found an an error that might have changed part of the discussion. > >T: "I have not seen electrons or electricity either, DC. Yet we can tell through sensing an effect (e.g. lights, a spark, electric shock, ...) that is produced by electrons flowing in a conductor. Since you can tell that electricity is real because you see lights (or, if you want to, try to get electrocuted by high-voltage electricity) , So I think you agree that electrons are not a fiction. Concerning the particle- or wave-theory being used for explaining the electron behaviors, I agree that they are nothing but mental formations that may or may not be truthful (realistic, verifiable). Well, that's all for my two-penny answer. > I am a beginner in the Abhidhamma. Just like you, I started reading the Abhidhamma-Pitaka not long ago." > DC: 1. "So I think you agree that electrons are a fiction" > > Yes, I agree in a sense. [I used the word fiction with a double meaning] > Now, your argument is: Since there are observable effects, it is real. So your knowledge is confined to the observable, or more accurately experienced effect. The word "electron" is only just a sound. You might as well have called this set of observable effect (lights, electrocution and so on) 'negatron' and our physics would be just as fine. > .............. T: I am afraid that the word "not" was accidentally dropped from my above quote ! The original is : "So I think you agree that electrons are not a fiction". Should everything you said above about electron, based on the erroneous quote, be changed as well? ............ > DC: There is a very important corollary: Reality has to be observed. By analysing a name such as "electron" you can never arrive at truth. (i prefer the use of the term truth to reality.) > T: True, analyzing a name may not be fruitless. But analyzing physical properties of electron flows (known as electricity) has led to many (obervable and verifiable) truths that electrical engineers have used to design and operate power systems for example. ........... > DC: This is what the teaching of the Buddha is about: > > We cannot see the truth because of delusion. > Remove delusion, then you will see the truth. > How do you remove delusion? By actually travelling the path. > > This is why the Enlightenment is described as "cakkhu.m udapasdi, aloko udapasdi". > This is what is meant by "abhi~n~naa" > This is also "saccikatvaa" the meaning of the word is to see with one's own eyes. The usual translation as realized is a vague term leading to confusion. > T: You are like a fish in the Pali pond, DC. What does "abhi~n~naa" mean here? I can see with my own eyes too, but how do I tell if my seeing is "saccikatvaa" ? I think the answer is seeing with no delusion -- the ariyans' way, right? > DC: Just one comment about the study of Abhidhamma. > > Reading abhidhamma pi.taka is an enormous task. May I make a suggestion: Try reading Ven. Nyanaponika's Abhidhamma Studies--really a discussion of Dhammasa.nganii, the first book of the Abhidhamma Pi.taka. That reminds me, Dhammasa.ngani was translated to English by Mrs. Rhys Davids. Anybody who wishes to study Abhidhamma should read her penetrative article on Abhidhamma. I'll get some internet sources and let you know if you wish. > T: Yes, please let me know of the Internet resources that you think are useful to help us communicate more effectively. .................. > DC: Let's agree on some defintions to make sure that we are talking about the same thing. > > Just one for today. Reality only what is observed. The Buddha's way of describing that is "jaanati, passati" always used in combination. > > Next would to give a clear meaning to Abhidhamma. > T: But if one is incapable of "observing" reality that way, then how may s/he develop jaanati & passati ? Satipatthana? .................. > Just for two kicks: Can there be two truths? > Yes, why not? There can be more truths, depending on what you call truths. :-) Tep === #77025 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 4:34 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Some Findings About Self and Self Views indriyabala > Tep: > Each of the two cases below is a good example of mental formations > (citta-sankhara). Are they truths, or just concepts of a reality that none of you (or I) know by "direct experience"? > > >Jon: > > Likewise, when we hear a song on the radio, what is heard is audible object ('sound') only; there is no 'song' or 'radio' actually *in* the sound. And in terms of direct experience, there never is a (unitary) song or radio or text or screen, because there is never more than one kind of experience happening -- that is to say, never more than one kind of consciousness arising, at its particular doorway -- at any moment. > > =============================== > > >Howard: > > IMO, what you say here is true, but more that is true can be said. > > When we hear a song we hear a sequence of sounds which are > interrelated in very particular ways, and it is those interrelationships that make the sequence a song rather than just noise. It is due to the interrelatedness of the heard sounds that enables the perceiving (and conceiving) of the song. And to the extent that there is that interrelatedness, there is a song. The "song" is imputed upon the sounds by thought, and there is no song independent of thought. Thus the song is concept. But it is not baseless concept. It is by by means of our conceptualization that we can know and deal with relations. > > > > > ======================================== > Howard: I'm not clear on what you are asking, Tep. Jon made some statements, and I made some statements. I think that what each of us said is true. The statements are, of course, expressions of thinking. All statements are. And the things that are true or false are, always, statements. Dogs are neither true nor false, sights are neither true nor false, sounds are neither5 true nor false. Warmth is neither true nor false. The same for feelings, inclinations, and > desires. Only statements, i.e., declarative sentences, are true or false. > Statements, of course, are not paramattha dhammas. Is that what you are after? > T: Sorry, Howard. I meant I was confused. Every time I read a bunch of logical interpretations of 'seeing', 'hearing', ..., 'hardness', 'realities' vs. non- realities, 'dhammas vs. concepts', etc. that varies from one person to another, I am depressed. If the Buddha and the Arahants had ever taught using logical interpretations like the above, the Teachings would have been very hard to follow. Tep === #77026 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 4:57 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: An Introduction to Buddhism- 1 indriyabala Hi Sarah and Scott, - Thank you, Sarah, for not forgetting some of the good conversations we had. > > Scott: I'd be interested in learning more of this. I'll seek the > > discussion in U.P. > .... > S: Tep may be able to give you links to the particular discussions he has in mind. > > Also, see 'Guarding the senses.....indriyasamvara' in U.P. > > As you all rightly concluded, the AN suttas don't have titles in the Pali, as B.Bodhi himself explained to me. So they have been given by the translators or editors/compilers. > .......... T: I am happy that you are willing to "consider" the sequential rise- and-fall of the dhammas with regard to indriyasmavara. I have no doubt that Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi had the sequential conditions in mind when he selected "Step-by-Step" as the title of the Indriyasamvara Sutta. But this innocent comment should not lead to another round of "how do you know" kind of debate. Thanks. Seaching the whole archive of DSG past messages (rather than only the UPs), you should find all of the "particular discussions I had in mind". Tep === #77027 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 5:07 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: New Photos! indriyabala Hi Sarah, - > Sarah: > Now you can help us encourage some of the other shy regulars to follow > suit, such as Swee Boon, DC, TG, Matheesha.....anyone else... > T: I do not know about the other persons whose names you mentioned, but the reason I am hesitating to submit a photo is not because I am shy. I think that does not have anything to do with dhamma discussion ! Tep === #77028 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 5:24 pm Subject: Re: Perfections Corner (18) indriyabala Dear Han (DC, Nina), - Thank you very much for the elaboration on 'upekkha'. It helped me recall several good suttas, and such recollection of the Dhamma gave me gladness (pamojja). > > Han: > I have no difficulty in understanding the above Nina's > comments. > As mentioned, there are many kinds of upekkhaas. > For example, > > Tatramajjhattatupekkhaa is associated with kaamavacara > kusala cittas. > > Jhaanupekkhaa is associated with third jhaana. > > Parisuddhupekkhaa is associated with fourth jhaana. > > Bojjhangupekkhaa (as mentioned above) arises just > before enlightenment. > > Cha.langupekkhaa (cha+anga+upekkhaa) is the one > achieved by the Arahants. > ----- and so on. > > ------------------------------ > > Han: > These are my comments. > I do not profess I am an expert. > I have an open mind, and will be prepared to be > corrected if I am wrong. > T: Dear Han, I no longer know what an expert is anymore. Your Pali knowledge is infinitely many times deeper than mine. But if you are not qualified, then give me a rule of thumb to judge whether or not someone is a "Pali expert". Thanks. ;-). Tep === #77029 From: han tun Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 5:35 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Perfections Corner (18) hantun1 Dear Tep, A Pali expert knows the Pali grammar as well as the Pali vocabulary. For me, I do not know the Pali grammar (not even a little bit), and for Pali vocabulary I have to compare the Pali words with the Burmese translation to get the root word. Then only I can look for the root word in the Dictionary. Without the Burmese translation and the Dictionary I am useless. Respectfully, Han #77030 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 1:55 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Some Findings About Self and Self Views upasaka_howard Hi, Tep - In a message dated 10/2/2007 7:35:30 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, indriyabala@... writes: T: Sorry, Howard. I meant I was confused. Every time I read a bunch of logical interpretations of 'seeing', 'hearing', ..., 'hardness', 'realities' vs. non- realities, 'dhammas vs. concepts', etc. that varies from one person to another, I am depressed. If the Buddha and the Arahants had ever taught using logical interpretations like the above, the Teachings would have been very hard to follow. ================================= Better not to worry about all the theoretical discussions and reasonings, I think, and largely just "stick with the program"; i.e., study the teachings and engage in practice. ;-) All this "talk" is sometimes helpful and sometimes not, but the Dhamma and its practice are always helpful! With metta, Howard #77031 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 6:21 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Perfections Corner (18) indriyabala Dear Han and DC, - I know that you explained exactly the same for me once at the SD discussion. But I asked again so other people know that you were sincere and did not show off. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear Tep, > > A Pali expert knows the Pali grammar as well as the > Pali vocabulary. > > For me, I do not know the Pali grammar (not even a > little bit), and for Pali vocabulary I have to compare > the Pali words with the Burmese translation to get the > root word. Then only I can look for the root word in > the Dictionary. Without the Burmese translation and > the Dictionary I am useless. > T: It is a good explanation for others to know too. Thanks. Tep === #77032 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 6:44 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: An Introduction to Buddhism- 1 scottduncan2 Dear Tep, Regarding: T: "Seaching the whole archive of DSG past messages (rather than only the UPs), you should find all of the 'particular discussions I had in mind'". Scott: Can you please be more specific? Sincerely, Scott. #77033 From: "Sukinder" Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 7:06 pm Subject: Re: Q. re Asoka, mindfulness of breath. sukinderpal Hi Dieter and Nina (* D.C.), I would like to respond to one part of your post to Nina. My other post to you would have been different had I read this one first. ================== > N: Jon: Note the wording here, "brings the four frames of reference [four arousings of mindfulness] to their culmination". To bring something to its culmination is not the same as developing it from scratch, and I see the emphasis in the sutta as being very much on > describing the final stages of development for those ready to achieve enlightenment in that very lifetime. Hence the description of the (hypothetical) monk who has already developed samatha (and satipatthana) to a high degree > > D: to bring something to its culmination needs a beginning 'from scratch' , doesn't it? > The journey of onethousand miles starts with the first step.. we, somewhere between > can only do out best to reach that..and if not now , this very lifetime , we have the confidence that our endeavours carry fruits for the next , haven't we? Sukin: We discussed this before when you first joined DSG. You seem to believe that the `first step' in the development of samatha / jhana is `concentrating on a chosen object'. I think this is completely wrong. I think you will agree that in fact this is all about the development of "kusala". Also you will agree that in a day, kusala arises very rarely as compared to akusala. This is because we have accumulated from the very beginning, infinitely more lobha, dosa and moha as compared to alobha, adosa and amoha. You will also agree that of the latter three, amoha almost never arises. There are hardly any moments of kusala accompanied by understanding either of the kind that sees the danger of akusala / value of kusala, or the kind which understands realities as realities and them as being anicca, dukkha and anatta. Those who actually do *understand* clearly what any of the chosen meditation objects for example breath, really are and how these serve the purpose of further encouraging kusala, they can't and do not live like us. Theirs is the understanding of the danger of sense contacts of a very high level. Their Sila is not a consequence of having `undertaken' it, but rather through their own very gradually developed understanding. Though in their case it is not `firm' as that of a Sotapanna who has eradicated the conditions which lead to the breaking of the precepts, and also the panna associated with samatha / jhana is not one that would lead to this end, still their level of panna is very high. It has been developed based on the perception and understanding about the danger of increasingly more subtle forms of tanha, hence the corresponding growth in Sila. They know for example, that eye, ear, nose, tongue contacts immediately conditions craving and therefore wish to be without such contacts. It is with this understanding that they then wish to go alone in the forest to sit at the foot of a tree and meditate. Do you know of anyone with the kind of sensitivity? In any case, this is all done with "self" and the root is still very much in tact. A student of the Buddhadhamma on the other hand is expected to have at least some understanding of the far greater danger of "moha". Without this, one is directionless, lost. Jhana panna, preferring one kind of state over another, is still encouraging of samsara. Seeing the danger in "moha" on the hand, is the kind of understanding which sees the dukkha in *all* conditioned realities. With the understanding of this distinction, the Dhamma student then is not drawn towards the path of the samatha yanika, why should he? Why go after one dukkha while trying to escape another? And even if one has accumulated the particular set of conditions and therefore wishes to become a monk, still what is more important to develop at any time, now that one heard the Dhamma? Frankly, I think most Buddhists are a confused lot, being neither here nor there. ;-) And you will see also that Sila does not require a Buddha to teach and neither does Samadhi. Panna of the Buddha kind requires one to hear the Teachings, not just a little and then go "do it", but over many, many, many lifetimes. The accumulated ignorance is great and always arising, in fact that we think "we know and can just get on with the practice" is one manifestation of that very ignorance and also craving. That we think of another time, place, posture / formal practice, this too is conditioned by ignorance / self and so we end up further encouraging it. In other words if we had any appreciation of how much ignorance there is and all the akusala which follow, particularly wrong view, we would not jump on to any ideas of doing anything in particular. Besides that conditioned realities are equally here as they are there, and realizing that *this* is what needs to be understood, then going by conventional activities and situations is seen as being very misleading. Dieter, I have been quite bold in this and the last post to you, I hope you don't mind. Metta, Sukin *ps.: D.C. I am a very slow reader and writing takes not only correspondingly long, but more. Also I am very behind in my reading and would like to catch up. Therefore please expect some delay in my response to your last post. Today my son's school closes and with him around I have less time alone and next week Jon, Sarah and several other friends will be in Bangkok, so there will be even less time then. So maybe it will take many days…. #77034 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 7:19 pm Subject: Re: Conditions, Ch 16, no 3. scottduncan2 Dear Nina, Regarding: N: "...When we feel pain we can be reminded that the body-base (bodysense) is ruupa which is dissociated from painful feeling which is naama; the body-base conditions the painful feeling by way of prenascent dissociation-condition. When naama and ruupa are not distinguished from each other we cling to a 'whole' of mind and body, we take them for 'mine' or 'self' and they seem to last. We keep on thinking of 'my sensitive body' and 'my painful feeling'. The body-base which is the base for body-consciousness and the accompanying painful feeling, is only an extremely tiny ruupa which arises and falls away. Painful feeling does not last either, it falls away immediately. Thus, when we think of our painful feeling it has gone already..." Scott: I really like this, Nina. Dissociation condition clearly demonstrates that there is no 'person' - either mentally or physically. Although this distinction is 'theoretical' for me, learning more about this really clarifies things. Sincerely, Scott. #77035 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 10:17 pm Subject: Few are Fine! bhikkhu0 Friends: Few are those beings who are able to Avoid all Evil Action! The Blessed Gotama Buddha once explained: Bhikkhus & friends, see this little dust, I have taken up upon the nail of my little-finger, what do you think is most: This tiny dust or this great planet Earth? The Bhikkhus then responded: Venerable Sir, this great planet Earth is much more, incomparable more... The minute speck of dust is trifling, microscopic, negligible in comparison. The Blessed Gotama Buddha then succinctly & importantly pointed out: Similarly and exactly so too, Bhikkhus & friends, those beings are few & quite rare, who are reborn among humans or devas! Beings who are reborn elsewhere, lower, as non-humans, in the screaming hell, as scared animals, as hungry ghosts or as mad demons are much more numerous & common... Why is it so? Because: Few are those beings who avoid destruction of life, who avoid all killing... Few are those beings who avoid mutilating, murder, robbery, & violence... Few are those beings who avoid taking what is not given by not stealing... Few are those beings who avoid using false weights, metals, & papers... Few are those beings who avoid being crooked by bribery, deceit, & fraud... Few are those beings who avoid sexual misconduct & all forms of abuse... Few are those beings who avoid booze & drugs making careless & negligent... Few are those beings who avoid false lying, deceiving and double-dealing... Few are those beings who avoid divisive speech, slandering & defamation... Few are those beings who avoid harsh & aggressive scolding and blaming... Few are those beings who avoid idle chatter, gossip, and empty hearsay... Few are those beings who avoid damaging nature, seed and plant life... Few are those beings who respect father, mother, elders, and recluses... Few are those beings who possess the Noble Eye of Dhamma-Wisdom. But these beings are much more numerous, who are immersed in Ignorance! Why is it so? Because, Bhikkhus, they have not seen the 4 Noble Truths! <...> Source (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta NikÄ?ya. [V:467-70] section 56: Saccasamyutta. Thread 63-78: Killing living beings & etc... Comments: The actions that result in rebirth in the five destinations are described in detail in the work: PañcagatidÄ«panÄ«. Translated by Ann Appleby Hazlewood. in Journal of the PÄ?li Text Society. Vol. XI 1987: http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=132714 Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka * <...> #77036 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Oct 3, 2007 1:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. re Asoka, mindfulness of breath. nilovg Dear Dieter, I did not answer your post yet, but I shall mainly go into your points at the end. Op 30-sep-2007, om 20:03 heeft Dieter Möller het volgende geschreven: > N: I would add:the bhikkhus the sutta was addressed to were highly > adept, they were arahats or they had accumulations to attain > arahatship. > > D: where is that said in the sutta? And even if it were so, what > you believe that the Buddha did not intend to address those monks > for the purpose of instructing less advanced Bhikkhus? > ------- N: I conclude this from the beginning of this sutta . You quoted: ( 5] The Bhikkhus of the countryside heard: "The Blessed One will wait there at Savatthi for the Komudi full moon of the fourth month." And the Bhikkhus of the countryside left in due course for Savatthi to see the Blessed One. 6] And the elder Bhikkhus still more intensively taught and instructed new Bhikkhus; some elder Bhikkhus taught and instructed ten new Bhikkhus, some elder Bhikkhus taught and instructed twenty. . . thirty. . . forty new Bhikkhus. And the new Bhikkhus, taught and instructed by the elder Bhikkhus, achieved successive stages of high distinction. ------ N: The great disciples were present and instructing, and this is extraordinary. They were the Venerable Sariputta, the Venerable Maha- Moggallana, the Venerable Maha Kassapa, the Venerable Maha Kaccana, the Venerable Maha Kotthita, the Venerable Maha Kappina, the Venerable Cunda, the Venerable Anuruddha, the Venerable Revata, the Venerable Ananda, and other very well known elder disciples. The new bhikkhus achieved successive stages of high distinction. This is very significant: high distinction, and that for new bhikkhus! ---------- 7] On that occasion -- ...The Blessed One ... addressed them thus: 4] "Bhikkhus, I am content with this progress. My mind is content with this progress. So arouse still more energy to attain the unattained, to achieve the unachieved, to realize the unrealized. I shall wait here at Savatthi for the Komudi full moon of the fourth month." -------- N: This is stock for arahatship. This is the goal of monkhood and the lifestyle of the monk is the lifestyle of the arahat. ------- The Buddha praised the Sangha: > <-------In this Sangha of Bhikkhus, there are Bhikkhus who are > arahats with taints destroyed...> and so on to sotaapannas. < there are Bhikkhus who abide devoted to the development of the four foundations of mindfulness.... who abide devoted to the four right kinds of strivings (efforts). . . of the four bases for spiritual power. . . of the five faculties. . . of the five powers. . . of the seven enlightenment factors. . . of the Noble Eightfold Path .. who abide devoted to the development of loving-kindness. . . of compassion. . . of appreciative joy. . . of equanimity. . . of the meditation of foulness. . . of the perception of impermanence - - who abide devotedto the development of mindfulness of breathing. ******* The Co explains that all these were meditation subjects the monks were very interested in. In the sutta where it is stated: they dwell devoted to the four foundations of mindfulness... the noble eightfold Path, there is reference to the thirtyseven factors of enlightenment. The Co explains about the factors of enlightenment, bodhipakkhiya dhammas, that these are lokiya (not lokuttara, that is, those arising when enlightenment is attained) and lokuttara. It states that they are lokiya for the monks who develop vipassana, insight. In the sutta we read about the perception of impermanence. The Co explains that here insight, vipassana, is meant by sa~n~naa, perception. ------------ N: When reading again over these texts I think that the bhikkhus had developed vipassana and were advanced. As quoted before, even after the first tetrad as explained in the Vis. VIII, 223 -225) there is reference to arahatship: One can attain jhaana with this subject, but after emerging from jhaana, vipassana has to be developed. Otherwise it is impossible to . I have read that people say: samatha brings calm and helps to see phenomena clearly. I would like to know; in what way, *what* is seen more clearly? It must be seeing, visible object, anger, attachment, all phenomena appearing now. Eventually these have to be realized as anattaa. After India perhaps we can talk more. Nina. #77037 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Oct 3, 2007 2:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: New Photos! Hello Sarah sarahprocter... Hi Elaine, Thx for responding kindly. --- shennieca wrote: > Hello Sarah, > How are you doing? I hope you're keeping well. Thank you for making > DSG group a comfortable place to come to. The discussions here are > thought-provoking and the people are sincere. This is a good place to > discuss the Dhamma. :) .... S: Good to hear....I'm just one of the many, many cogs in the wheel here! .... > I still do not know how to 'convince' someone about no-creator God. > Sometimes, I have some doubt about it myself, I feel that there must > be a greater 'Force' that is present. I don't know if a creator God > exist or not but I want to keep that option open, just in case there > really is one. Do you have the sutta where the Buddha explicitly said > that there is no creator God? .... S: No need to try and convince anyone, but it's good that you consider further. I think that while we cling to an idea of self here, we continue to cling to an idea of other beings and even a creator God as you suggest. Larry quoted this passage before from Vism: >Vism.XVII,282: "This Wheel of Becoming consists in the occurrence of formations, etc., with ignorance, etc., as the respective reasons. Therefore it is devoid of a maker supplementary to that, such as a Brahmaa conjectured thus, 'Brahmaa the Great, the Highest, the Creator' (D.i,18), to perform the function of maker of the round of rebirths; and it is devoid of any self as an experiencer of pleasure and pain conceived thus, 'This self of mine that speaks and feels' (cf.M.i,8). This is how it should be understood to be without any maker or experiencer."< You may like to (or others may help you) follow up the sutta refs given. Also, see the others under 'Creator' in "Useful Posts" in the files, especially the last Vism quote which Connie gave: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/69854 Perhaps others can add other sutta refs. .... > It is really nice to see the pics of DSG members. :) I'd love to see > the photos of your trip to India/Nepal. The photos that I've posted > in DSG were taken in Vancouver, B.C, December last year. I'll try to > post more recent photos next time. :D .... S: I'm not much of a photographer, but perhaps Chris or Tom W. or someone else will share photos of the trip. I'll ask. Thx for telling me that your nice ones were in Vancouver. We were there about 25 yrs ago - I didn't recognise it. .... > Side note: > Let's share some metta and karuna with the people of Burma, may there > be peace in Burma soon. ... S: Nicely said. A real test of equanimity too. Metta, Sarah ========= #77038 From: han tun Date: Wed Oct 3, 2007 2:30 am Subject: Perfections Corner (22) hantun1 Dear All, This is the continuation of Chapter 10: The Perfection of Equanimity, taken from the book “The Perfections leading to Enlightenment” by Sujin Boriharnwanaket and translated by Nina van Gorkom. Questions, comments, or different opinions are welcome. ------------------------------ All Bodhisattas are evenminded and impartial, in every respect. We read that the Buddha said: ---------- “I slept in a cemetery, taking as a pillow the skeleton of a corpse. I had evenmindedness with regard to what is clean and what is dirty.” ---------- We read that the village children conducted themselves in many rude, improper ways, by spitting, jeering, defecating and urinating. They poked blades of grass into the Bodhisatta's ears and they were teasing and mocking as much as they liked. We read that the Bodhisatta thereupon reflected: ---------- “The village children caused me to suffer pain, whereas those wise people gave me enjoyable things, such as flowers, unguents and food. I am impartial and evenminded towards all people; I have equanimity. I have moderation in all things, in all circumstances. I have no specific affection towards those who support me, nor do I speak angry words or have feelings of vengeance towards those who do not support me. Thus, I have equanimity towards all people.” ---------- The Bodhisatta was unshakeable and impartial, having no attachment to people who gave him pleasant things, such as flowers, unguents and food, and having no anger towards those who disturbed him and made him suffer. We read: ---------- “At that time the Buddha taught moderation, he taught not to cling to the vicissitudes of life. He was equipped with the requisite of enlightenment that is wisdom and hence he was impartial towards all beings, to those who supported him as well as those who did not. He finally said: ‘I am evenminded towards happiness and misery, towards honour and dishonour; I am impartial towards everything, and this is my perfection of equanimity.’ The perfection of equanimity is evenmindedness, being without happiness and anguish, like a scale that is well-balanced. The Buddha showed that he was impartial to all beings and to all vicissitudes of life, and this degree of equanimity is not common to other people.” ---------- To be continued. Metta, Han #77039 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Oct 3, 2007 4:55 am Subject: [dsg] Re: New Photos! buddhatrue Hi Sarah (and Tep), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > S: Good News! James will be glad to assist, I know! He gave me some > muscles as I sat at my computer once and gave Howard a Father Xmas hat! Don't tell him that; you'll share him to death! ;-)) Tep, BTW, I didn't get that photo. Please resend. buddhatrue @ yahoo.com. > > Now you can help us encourage some of the other shy regulars to follow > suit, such as Swee Boon, DC, TG, Matheesha.....anyone else... Yes, please do. It isn't a beauty contest and Buddhists shouldn't care about their photos. :-) Metta, James #77040 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Wed Oct 3, 2007 5:00 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (68) nichiconn Dear Friends, 13. Viisatinipaato 3. Caapaatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa part 2 txt: "Sabbaabhibhuu sabbaviduuhamasmi, sabbesu dhammesu anuupalitto; sabba~njaho ta.nhaakkhaye vimutto, saya.m abhi~n~naaya kamuddiseyya.m. (Dha. pa. 353; mahaava. 11; kathaa. 405; ma. ni. 1.285). "Na me aacariyo atthi, sadiso me na vijjati; sadevakasmi.m lokasmi.m, natthi me pa.tipuggalo. "Aha~nhi arahaa loke, aha.m satthaa anuttaro; ekomhi sammaasambuddho, siitibhuutomhi nibbuto. "Dhammacakka.m pavattetu.m, gacchaami kaasina.m pura.m; andhiibhuutasmi.m lokasmi.m, aaha~ncha.m amatadundubhin"ti. (Mahaava. 11; kathaa. 405; ma. ni. 1.285)- RD: And he was thus answered: 'All have I overcome. All things I know, 'Mid all things undefiled. Renouncing all, In death of Craving wholly free. My own The Deeper View. Whom should I name to thee? For me no teacher lives. I stand alone On earth, in heav'n rival to me there's none. Now go I on seeking Benares town, To start the Wheel, the gospel of the Norm, To rouse and guide the nations blind and lost, Striking Salvation's drum, Ambrosia's alarm.' PRUITT: [The Buddha answered:] I am all knowing, one who has overcome everything. Not clinging to any phenomena, having left everything behind, through the annihilation of craving, I am free. Having direct knowledge of myself, whom would I point to [as my teacher]?* I have no teacher. My equal does not exist. I am the unsurpassed Teacher. Only I am a Fully Awakened One. I have become cool, quenched. I am going to the town of Kaasi to set in motion the wheel of the Doctrine. I will beat the drum of the undying state [of quenching] in the world that is blind.** *Vin I 8 (BD IV 11), M I 170 (MLDB 263), Dhp 353, Kv 289 (PC 289). **Vin I 8 (BD IV 11), M I 170 (MLDB 263), Dhp 353, Kv 289 (PC 169); "I have no teacher ... devas" quoted in Mil 235 (MQ II 37). txt: Satthaaraa attano sabba~n~nubuddhabhaave dhammacakkapavattane ca pavedite pasannacitto so "hupeyyapaavuso, arahasi anantajino"ti (mahaava. 11; ma. ni. 1.285) vatvaa ummagga.m gahetvaa pakkanto va"ngahaarajanapada.m agamaasi. So tattha eka.m migaluddakagaamaka.m upanissaaya vaasa.m kappesi. Ta.m tattha je.t.thakamigaluddako upa.t.thaasi. So ekadivasa.m duura.m migava.m gacchanto "mayha.m arahante maa pamajjii"ti attano dhiitara.m caapa.m aa.naapetvaa agamaasi saddhi.m puttabhaatukehi. RD: The ascetic, discerning the omniscience and great mission of the Master, was comforted in mind, and replied: 'Friend, may these things be! Thou art worthy *354 to be a conqueror, world without end!' Then, taking a by-road, he came to the Vankahaara country, and abode near the hamlet of the trappers, where the head trapper supplied his wants. One day the latter, setting off on a long hunt with sons and brothers, bade his daughter not neglect 'the Arahant' *355 in his absence. *354 In the Majjhima Nikaaya there is another s'loka before the last above, in which the Buddha says, 'I am worthy,' etc., thus: 'I am the Arahant [i.e., worthy] of the world, I am The Guide supreme, the one Truly Awake. Cool and serene I in Nibbana dwell (nibbuto).' *355 The 'holy man,' as our tradition might say. He was no Arahant in the Buddhist sense. PRUITT: With his mind favourably disposed towards the Teacher, who declared his own state as the Omniscient Buddha and [his intention of] setting in motion the wheel of the Doctrine, [Upaka] said, "Then it should be so, friend, that you are the equal of the Conqueror of the Unending." Then going along a byway, he departed and went to the district of Va"ngahaara. There, he made his dwelling near a village of deer hunters. And the chief deer hunter there attended on him. One day, [the hunter], who was going hunting in a remote area, gave orders to his own daughter Caapaa, saying, "Don't neglect our Arahat." And we went off with his sons and brothers. === tbc, connie #77041 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Oct 3, 2007 6:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: An Introduction to Buddhism- 1 sarahprocter... Hi Scott & Tep, Yes, Tep - I remember our many good discussions of course. --- Scott Duncan wrote: > Dear Tep, > > Regarding: > > T: "Seaching the whole archive of DSG past messages (rather than only > the UPs), you should find all of the 'particular discussions I had in > mind'". > > Scott: Can you please be more specific? .... S: For a start, I just keyed in 'Sarah Tep indriyasamvara' and came across a controversial thread starting with this post of mine. Dear Htoo as well: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/50988 You could try following the links at the end..... Also: 'Tep indriya samvara' and 'Tep Kundaliya' would also open up quite a few threads (just go back to a year or two ago). By the time you've followed all the links and threads, it'll be the weekend again:) Also, see 'Kundaliya' in U.P. and follow threads of messages addressed to or from Tep there perhaps. I'm sure Tep will be able to link you to other threads he has in mind. Metta, Sarah =========== #77042 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Oct 3, 2007 6:12 am Subject: Asoka, Ch 7, no 1. nilovg Dear friends, Chapter 7 Paying Respect When we visit the holy places and pay respect by chanting and going around the Bodhi-tree and the stupas, we can be reminded of the Buddha’s excellent qualities: his wisdom, his purity and his compassion. Out of compassion he taught us the Dhamma he had realized himself when he attained enlightenment under the Bodhi-tree. He is our teacher in the highest sense, he excels all other teachers in wisdom, purity and compassion. Khun Santi writes in his lexicon about the Buddha as the pre-eminent teacher (parama satthå): “ ’Pre-eminent Teacher’ refers to the Exalted One, the Buddha who accumulated the perfections during four incalculable periods and a hundred thousand aeons in order to become an omniscient Buddha, the teacher of devas and men. He taught others so that they could also know the truth which can be verified by paññå , understanding of what appears through each of the six doorways. In this way the wrong view can be eliminated which takes realities for beings, people and “self”, and the truth of realities can be fully penetrated as the different stages of enlightenment are attained.” We should listen to the Dhamma over and over again with the aim to have more understanding and to verify the truth of the teachings ourselves. If we do not listen, study and consider the Dhamma, we may believe what the Buddha taught but we shall not be able to directly experience the truth of the Dhamma. The Buddha attained enlightenment, but we cannot understand what enlightenment means so long as we are only ordinary people who have not attained enlightenment ourselves. We cannot fathom the Buddha’s pre-eminent qualities, but we can begin to have at least some understanding of them by the development of satipaììhåna, which is his teaching. There are realities appearing through the six doorways now, and sati can gradually begin to be aware of one reality at a time. In the scriptures we often find the epithet of the Buddha “Tathågata”, which is full of meaning. The Buddha used this epithet frequently in reference to himself. In the Commentary to the “Middle Length Sayings” (no. 1, the Discourse on the Synopsis of Fundamentals), the”Papañcasúdaní”, Buddhaghosa elicited the multiple implications of this title [1]. When we read about the derivations of this term and the word associations, we should remember that Buddhaghosa did not give a linguistic exposition, but that he wanted to explain the Buddha’s pre-eminent qualities. We should not cling to conventional terms but try to understand what they express. The subcommentary to this commentary states that “the word ‘Tathågata’ contains the entire practice of the Dhamma as well as all the qualities of a Buddha.” --------- 1. I used the translation by Ven. Bodhi in his translation of “The All-Embracing Net of Views”, the Brahmajåla Sutta, B.P.S. Kandy, 1978. ******* Nina. #77043 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Oct 3, 2007 6:22 am Subject: Conditions, Ch 16, no 4. nilovg Dear friends, Through satipatthåna one can learn to distinguish the characteristic of nåma from the characteristic of rúpa, and then one will be less inclined to think of a self who feels pain. We should learn to understand dissociation-condition not only in theory but also through the practice. We read in the “Kindred Sayings” (V, Book VIII, Kindred Sayings about Anuruddha, Ch II, § 10, Grievously afflicted): On a certain occasion the venerable Anuruddha was staying near Såvatthí in Dark Wood, being sick and grievously afflicted. Now a number of monks came to visit the venerable Anuruddha, and on coming to him... said this: “Pray what is the venerable Anuruddha’s life, in that the painful feelings that come upon him make no impression on his mind?” “Friends, it is because I dwell with my mind well grounded in four arisings of mindfulness. That is why the painful feelings that come upon me make no impression on my mind. What are the four? Herein, friends, I dwell in body contemplating body, being ardent, self-possessed and mindful. So with regard to feelings... mind... dhammas.... It is because I thus dwell, friends, that the painful feelings that come upon me make no impression on my mind.” In the case of dissociation-condition which is postnascent, the conditioning dhamma arises after the dhamma it conditions. We have seen under the section on postnascence-condition, pacchajåta-paccaya (Ch 9), that citta consolidates the rúpas of the body which have arisen previously to it and have not fallen away yet. Citta also conditions these rúpas by way of postnascent dissociation-condition. The citta which conditions the rúpas of the body in this way is altogether different from these rúpas, it is “dissociated” from rúpa. With regard to presence-condition, atthi-paccaya, the conditioning dhamma consolidates the conditioned dhamma by its presence. The dhamma which conditions another dhamma in this way can arise at the same time as the conditioned dhamma, it can arise prior to it or after it. Conascent presence-condition pertains to nåma which conditions another nåma, to nåma which conditions rúpa, and to rúpa which conditions another rúpa. The same conditioning dhammas and conditioned dhammas which are related by conascence-condition, sahajåta-paccaya (Ch 5), are also related by conascent presence- condition. As we have seen, citta and cetasikas are mutually related by conascence-condition. The four great Elements are mutually related by conascence-condition. The rebirth-consciousness and the heart-base condition one another by conascence-condition. Moreover, the rebirth- consciousness is conascence-condition for the other rúpas produced by kamma at that moment. Citta which produces rúpa is conascence- condition for that rúpa. The four great Elements are conascence- condition for the “derived rúpas” (the rúpas other than the four great Elements). The conascent presence-condition seems to be identical with conascence-condition. However, the teaching of conascent presence-condition reminds us of the fact that the reality which conditions another reality which has arisen at the same time is still present, that it has not fallen away yet. ******* Nina. #77044 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Wed Oct 3, 2007 6:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Puggala pa~n~natti dcwijeratna Dear Tep, Thank you very much for the prompt response. Here are my comments. @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ >>T: I found an an error that might have changed part of the discussion. --------- DC: Don't bother about it. I made a little blunder. Let me clarify my position. Electron is a mere name (vohara-common usage), or agreed or conventional term to denote the observed effects like: light, motion, and so on. Question: Are you familiar with the Paradigm theory in the philosophy of science? ========================================== >T: True, analyzing a name may not be fruitless. But analyzing physical properties of electron flows (known as electricity) has led to many (obervable and verifiable) truths that electrical engineers have used to design and operate power systems for example. ........... DC: Your statement above depends on what is meant by 'analyzing'. Again, in the first sentence it is 'analyzing a name (in the example, elctron); and in the second sentence 'analyzing physical properties of electron'. These are different things. Now in Abhidhamma, to analyze is to break down into into smaller constituents. Thus an electron cannot be further analyzed. In the second sentence you have used the word 'properties'. Abhidhammikas use the word 'lakkha.na' for this purpose, if my memory serves me right. [see visuddhimagga]. This is important. It is those properties that define the state of the object (=name). The state changes because of interactions with the environment (external world). These are the actions (kamma or kiriya). Do you see the anlogy with a power system? The state of a power system is determined by a set of voltages and currents (really a matrix). Its state is changed by various interactions with the external world: operator interventions; lightning and so on. The word power system is what we have agreed to call it. We might as well as have called it an electric system, electro-mechanical energy conversion system and so on. I hope this will clarify my position [By the way I used the word fiction as opposed to fact, I should have been more technical and used the word 'concept' or pa~n~natti. I am articulating these thoughts for the first time. There could be mistakes and errors. Please come back if that is the case. I would be grateful] ====================================================== =================================================== T: You are like a fish in the Pali pond, DC. What does "abhi~n~naa" mean here? ------------- DC: The word, a noun, is derived from 'abhijaanaati'. Which is formed from the root ~naa by the addition of the prefix abhi. Dictionaries give the meanings: special knowledge; supernormal power. Actually, the meaning of 'abhi' is difficult to translate in a single word. It has a sense of over, above, like super. Here is an example of the use of abhi: sabbaabhibhuu sabbaviduuhamasmi-- I have conquered all, I have known everything. But what is important here is: The Buddha's enlightenment knowledge comes through abhi~n~naa. Suttas usually give six different kinds and at least three are required to become a Buddha (Tevijja vaccagotta sutta). Such knowledge is called vijjaa. And they are part of pa~n~naasampadaa or pa~n~naakhandha. By the way pa~n~aa and pa~n~naakhandha are two different thing. Lot of confusion seems to have arisen on account of this. Now the Buddha says about his enlightenment: "abhi~n~neyya.m abhi~n~naata.m, pahaatabba.m ca pahiina.m, bhaavetabba.m ca bhaavita.m, buddhohamasmi braahmana" This means: I have known what should be known by higher-knowing (abhi~n~naa), I have abandoned what sould be abandoned, I have developed, what should be developed, I am therefore the Buddha. (These are my own translations for the purpose of bringing out the meaning). Again, in numerous places in the suttas you get the phrase: "saya.m abhi~n~naaya sacchikatvaa" with reference to Dhamma. Dhamma that has been realised by the Buddha through higher-knowing (abhi~n~naa). Dhamma, here, is really the Four Noble Truths (the Dhamma). I hope I have made myself clear about the meaning of abhi~n~naa, as I understand it. =========================================================================== >T: I can see with my own eyes too, but how do I tell if my seeing is "saccikatvaa" ? I think the answer is seeing with no delusion -- the ariyans' way, right? ---------------- Yes, but with qualifications. In a worldly sense, "sacchikaroti" is to really see with one's own eyes. In a legal set up, to establish the truth you normally need eye-witnesses. It is eye-witnessing in that sense. But in the context that is under discussion, eye-witnessing must come through abhi~n~naa. So your seeing, if you are not an ariya, is not sacchikatvaa. It is the ariyans way yes, but it is not only confined to ariyans. It is just a power of the mind. Without travelling the Buddhist path, you can get these powers. A good living example is Satya Sai Baba". ============================================== >T: Yes, please let me know of the Internet resources that you think are useful to help us communicate more effectively. ............ ...... DC: I located Karunadasa's Dhamma Theory. It can be downloaded from so many sites: Go to Google, search for "Dhamma theory, Karunadasa". You'll get enough places. ================================================ >T: But if one is incapable of "observing" reality that way, then how may s/he develop jaanati & passati ? Satipatthana? ............ ...... DC: You have to go beyond Satipa.t.thaana to sammaa samaadhi. From their transition is possible. Again, no short cuts. You have to travel the full Noble Eightfold Path. You can't be a puthujjana and an ariyan at the same time. It is an irreversible change. ================================================== >T: Yes, why not? There can be more truths, depending on what you call truths. .................... DC: I like it, how do you define true or the truth? Let's try to find a defintion that is acceptable. This a question that has been troubling philosphers from time immemorial? So the discussion can go on for ever. On the other hand we should arrive at a working definition in the light of the Teachings of the Buddha. @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ Tep, I have written a very long e-m I think, I am sure there are many errors in that, not just typos, errors of commission or ommission, but errors of logic or critical thinking. I would be grateful, if you would go through it carefully and respond. With mettaa, D. G. D. C. Wijeratna #77045 From: "Alex" Date: Wed Oct 3, 2007 8:15 am Subject: Re: Buddha Gotama, a Once Returner? truth_aerator Dear Robert, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: Dear Alex > Suggestion:I think the best suggestion I can give is to try to learn > what the Pali texts say. > Comment: The idea that the Bodhisatta was already a sakadagami before > his last life is nonsense according to Theravada. > Addition: It takes time to know what is right and wrong. > Robert > I DID DO A LOT OF CHECKING OF SUTTAS (translated into English). As I've said, I WAS skeptical at first. Please be kind and answer these questions: 1) Why did Gotama (Jotipala) refused to see Buddha Kassapa, why did he INSULT him many times and had to be DRAGGED BY THE HAIR by a lay Anagamin? http://www.budsas.org/ebud/majjhima/081-ghatikara-e1.htm mn81 2) Why did the Buddha to be in his last life (if we believe the story of 4 divine messengers) had to be shaken up in his last lifetime? Since he was raised to be a Universal Monarch (the other alternative) didn't he know that life was inseparable from suffering? 3) Why did Buddha REFUSED to teach when he got awakened? He had to be Begged by a Brahma to do it. "Enough now with teaching what only with difficulty I reached. This Dhamma is not easily realized by those overcome with aversion & passion. What is abstruse, subtle, deep, hard to see, going against the flow — those delighting in passion, cloaked in the mass of darkness, won't see." - http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn06/sn06.001.than.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.026.than.html 4) In which early suttas (found in DN,MN,AN,SN) does it say that Gotama took the Vow and had to perform 10 paramis? 5) Remember that Buddha liked to call himself an Arahant. This is all good news since the path to (potential) Buddhahood and Arahatship is basically the same. Thank you, lots of Metta, Alex #77046 From: Dieter Möller Date: Wed Oct 3, 2007 9:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. re Asoka, mindfulness of breath. moellerdieter Dear Nina and Sukinder, thanks for comment / view of above topic. I understand both of you are busy now so I will take a bit of time with my answer.. with Metta Dieter P.S. : Nina, I wish you a pleasant journey ! #77047 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Oct 3, 2007 11:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. re Asoka, mindfulness of breath. nilovg Dear Dieter, Vielen Dank! Nina. Op 3-okt-2007, om 18:22 heeft Dieter Möller het volgende geschreven: > P.S. : Nina, I wish you a pleasant journey ! #77048 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Oct 3, 2007 7:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions, Ch 16, no 4. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 10/3/2007 9:22:43 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Dear friends, Through satipatthÃ¥na one can learn to distinguish the characteristic of nÃ¥ma from the characteristic of rúpa, and then one will be less inclined to think of a self who feels pain. We should learn to understand dissociation-condition not only in theory but also through the practice. We read in the “Kindred Sayingsâ€? (V, Book VIII, Kindred Sayings about Anuruddha, Ch II, § 10, Grievously afflicted): On a certain occasion the venerable Anuruddha was staying near SÃ¥vatthÃin Dark Wood, being sick and grievously afflicted. Now a number of monks came to visit the venerable Anuruddha, and on coming to him... said this: “Pray what is the venerable Anuruddha’s life, in that the painful feelings that come upon him make no impression on his mind?â€? “Friends, it is because I dwell with my mind well grounded in four arisings of mindfulness. That is why the painful feelings that come upon me make no impression on my mind. What are the four? Herein, friends, I dwell in body contemplating body, being ardent, self-possessed and mindful. So with regard to feelings... mind... dhammas.... It is because I thus dwell, friends, that the painful feelings that come upon me make no impression on my mind.â€? ================================ It would seem to me that by means of the four foundations of mindfulness, Ven. Anuruddha came to directly know the impermanent, dependent, insubstantial, and impersonal nature of all conditioned dhammas, and as a result of knowing these, especially the last, painful feelings came to make no impression on the venerable's mind. With metta, Howard #77049 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Oct 3, 2007 11:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions, Ch 16, no 4. nilovg Hi Howard, Op 3-okt-2007, om 20:18 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > It would seem to me that by means of the four foundations of > mindfulness, Ven. Anuruddha came to directly know the impermanent, > dependent, > insubstantial, and impersonal nature of all conditioned dhammas, > and as a result of > knowing these, especially the last, painful feelings came to make > no impression > on the venerable's mind. -------- N: I agree. I wrote in the beginning: Through satipatthåna one can learn to distinguish the characteristic of nåma from the characteristic of rúpa, and then one will be less inclined to think of a self who feels pain. I wrote this because I, a beginner, thought of the beginning. And even a beginning helps; one is less inclined to think of a whole, of a self. Nina. #77050 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Oct 3, 2007 11:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Corner (22) nilovg Dear Han, here we see that all the other perfections also support equanimity, that the perfections condition one another. daana: he fortgave the children who were wrong-doers. Forgiving is a kind of daana, one gives others the opportunity to live free from harm. siila: he never uttered a word of dismay. renunciation: he renounced all comfort, he did not mind whether a place was dirty or clean. He renounced the honour and amenities that people usually give to monks, and therefore he did not wish to become a monk. wisdom: as we read: < Wisdom is opposed to akusala as it dispels the darkness of attachment and so on and restores sight.> Energy and patience: He showed the utmost patience in his conduct towards the naughty children. He even went to a cemetery where the children followed him and nobody would prevent the children from their evil conduct. I also read elsewhere that the Bodhisatta said that if there were no people with contrarious conduct how could he train himself in patience. He considered them even as his benefactors. A family member used to say to me many times: Kh Sujin said: 'let her say this again and again' and I remembered this. But we are not always able to act like this, Han. What do you think? Aversion has conditions to come out in certain situations, although we do not want it. We may go `a long way, but certain people make it difficult. I know it is due to my defilements, the real cause is not outside, the situation, but within. Perhaps you can say something helpful, or quote a wise word from the Burmese. I always love such examples. The Bodhisatta also accmulated truthfulness. We read: < Truthfulness is the opposite of lobha because it proceeds in accordance with fact whether others render help or inflict harm.> . We read about determination: The Bodhisatta was evenminded towards praise, blame and the other worldly conditions, the vicissities of the world. He accumulated metta: he had only kind thoughts towards the children who pestered him. He loved them as if they were his own children. Thus we see that all perfections were accumulated by the Bodhisatta. We do not have to expressively think of each of the perfections, but when we are convinced of their value there are conditions for their arising naturally. It is especially satipatthana that supports them, and vice versa. Nina. Op 3-okt-2007, om 11:30 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > The perfection of equanimity is evenmindedness, being > without happiness and anguish, like a scale that is > well-balanced. The Buddha showed that he was impartial > to all beings and to all vicissitudes of life, and > this degree of > equanimity is not common to other people.” #77051 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Oct 3, 2007 10:05 am Subject: Away Until Evening of October 9 upasaka_howard Hi, all - We are leaving tomorrow morning for an auto trip to Chicago, with a one-night stay-over at the Tara Inn on the Pennsylvania-Ohio border going to Chicago and also on the way back home at a Radisson Hotel also as we enter Pennsylvania. (We'll be in the Chicago area itself about two and a half days.) I am unlikely to get much if any internet time while away from home, but I will reply to any messages directed my way upon my return. With metta, Howard #77052 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Wed Oct 3, 2007 3:10 pm Subject: Re: Buddha Gotama, a Once Returner? rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > > Dear Robert, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > > Please be kind and answer these questions: > > 1) Why did Gotama (Jotipala) refused to see Buddha Kassapa, why did > he INSULT him many times and had to be DRAGGED BY THE HAIR by a lay > Anagamin? > http://www.budsas.org/ebud/majjhima/081-ghatikara-e1.htm > mn81 > ---------- Wasn't Jotipala born into a Brahmin family and adopted their wrong views (if I am remembering the story correctly). Wrong view is very powerful and can even influence a bodisatta at times. ---------------------------- > 2) Why did the Buddha to be in his last life (if we believe the story > of 4 divine messengers) had to be shaken up in his last lifetime? > Since he was raised to be a Universal Monarch (the other alternative) > didn't he know that life was inseparable from suffering? ------------- > > 3) Why did Buddha REFUSED to teach when he got awakened? He had to be > Begged by a Brahma to do it. > > "Enough now with teaching what only with difficulty I reached. This > Dhamma is not easily realized by those overcome with aversion & > passion. What is abstruse, subtle, deep, hard to see, > going against the flow — those delighting in passion, cloaked in the > mass of darkness, won't see." - > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn06/sn06.001.than.html > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.026.than.html > --------- he commentary to Majjihma Nikaya Sutta 26 (p1217 of Bodhi's translation). The Atthakatha raises the question of why after countless aeons of striving to become a Buddha who could teach the Dhamma he now had such thoughts. The answer is that it was only now, after becoming a Buddha that he realised just how strong defilements were in people. And only now could he fully realise just how profound the Dhamma is. Another reason was that he wanted Brahma to ask him to teach (so others would understand how precious this teaching is).All buddhas do this. ------------- Robert #77053 From: han tun Date: Wed Oct 3, 2007 3:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Corner (22) hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much for your kind comments. I like your summary on how all other perfections support equanimity and that the perfections condition one another. How Mahaa-Lomahamsa developed other perfections will be in my next post. But I like your summary better. Nina: Here we see that all the other perfections also support equanimity, that the perfections condition one another. daana: he forgave the children who were wrong-doers. Forgiving is a kind of daana, one gives others the opportunity to live free from harm. siila: he never uttered a word of dismay. renunciation: he renounced all comfort, he did not mind whether a place was dirty or clean. He renounced the honour and amenities that people usually give to monks, and therefore he did not wish to become a monk. wisdom: as we read: < Wisdom is opposed to akusala as it dispels the darkness of attachment and so on and restores sight.> Energy and patience: He showed the utmost patience in his conduct towards the naughty children. He even went to a cemetery where the children followed him and nobody would prevent the children from their evil conduct. The Bodhisatta also accmulated truthfulness. We read: < Truthfulness is the opposite of lobha because it proceeds in accordance with fact whether others render help or inflict harm.> We read about determination: The Bodhisatta was evenminded towards praise, blame and the other worldly conditions, the vicissities of the world. He accumulated metta: he had only kind thoughts towards the children who pestered him. He loved them as if they were his own children. Thus we see that all perfections were accumulated by the Bodhisatta. ------------------------------ Han: As regards patience you wrote as follows. Nina: I also read elsewhere that the Bodhisatta said that if there were no people with contrarious conduct how could he train himself in patience. He considered them even as his benefactors. A family member used to say to me many times: Kh Sujin said: 'let her say this again and again' and I remembered this. But we are not always able to act like this, Han. What do you think? Aversion has conditions to come out in certain situations, although we do not want it. We may go `a long way, but certain people make it difficult. I know it is due to my defilements, the real cause is not outside, the situation, but within. Perhaps you can say something helpful, or quote a wise word from the Burmese. I always love such examples. Han: And your concluding remark was: Nina: We do not have to expressively think of each of the perfections, but when we are convinced of their value there are conditions for their arising naturally. It is especially satipatthana that supports them, and vice versa. ------------------------------ Han: Burmese Elders also used to tell us to consider wrong-doers as our benefactors. They are like examiners, testing our patience (and other paramiis as well), and they are, in a way, helping us to develop our patience even more. We used to say that if there were no Devadatta, we would probably not have Gotama Buddha. When we read Jatakas, we always read the villain as future Devadatta. At first, I was angry with him, but later, I pity him. In a way, he had sacrificed himself to the extent of being reborn in hell, but by doing so he had helped our Blessed One to become the Buddha. Therefore, Khun Sujin was right: ‘let her say this again and again.’ You said that aversion has conditions to come out in certain situations, although we do not want it, and although we may go a long way, certain people make it difficult. You added that you know it is due to your defilements, and the real cause is not outside, but within. It is true for all of us, Nina. However, I sincerely believe that you are much well equipped with ‘inner dhamma’ within yourself than others. Your understanding of naama and ruupa and the satipatthana will surely support your ability to withstand against any wrong-doing from outside, and any defilements within. The importance of siila, samaadhi, pa~n~naa in the perfection of patience is evidenced in Jataka No. 313, Khantii-vaadi Jataka. In that story, the King Kalaabu, out of jealousy cut off all the limbs of the Bodhisatta, and then cut off his nose and ears. The Bodhisatta was all the time practicing khantii-paramii, and seemed to be free from pain up to the time of his death due to the wounds. U Shwe Aung wrote that the Bodhisatta, while practicing khantii-paramii, could bear the pain because of his bhaavanaa (or satipatthana, you might say). Therefore, I like your concluding remark very much: “It is especially satipatthana that supports them, and vice versa.” Respectfully, Han --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Han, > here we see that all the other perfections also > support equanimity, > that the perfections condition one another. #77054 From: "Alex" Date: Wed Oct 3, 2007 3:42 pm Subject: Re: Buddha Gotama, a Once Returner? truth_aerator Hi Robert, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: >> ---------- > Wasn't Jotipala born into a Brahmin family and adopted their wrong > views (if I am remembering the story correctly). Wrong view is very > powerful and can even influence a bodisatta at times. > ---------------------------- So even after 4AK's and 300,000 MK's some wrong view of caste could be picked up by about 99% complete Bodhisatta? How many Paramis did he manage to complete? Speaking of which, WHERE IN THE (DN,MN,SN,AN) is there a talk about Buddha taking a vow and completing 10 paramis? > he commentary to Majjihma Nikaya Sutta 26 (p1217 of Bodhi's > translation). > > The Atthakatha raises the question of why after countless aeons of > striving to become a Buddha who could teach the Dhamma he now had > such thoughts. The answer is that it was only now, after becoming a > Buddha that he realised just how strong defilements were in people. > And only now could he fully realise just how profound the Dhamma is. >>>>>>>> So he couldn't figure it out in 4 AKs and 300,000 MKs? >>>>>>> > Another reason was that he wanted Brahma to ask him to teach (so > others would understand how precious this teaching is).All buddhas > do this. > ------------- > > > Robert > Thank you very much for replying, Lots of Metta, Alex #77055 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Oct 3, 2007 4:53 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Some Findings About Self and Self Views indriyabala Hi Howard, my friend - You kindly wrote : >Howard: > Better not to worry about all the theoretical discussions and > reasonings, I think, and largely just "stick with the program"; i.e., study the teachings and engage in practice. ;-) > All this "talk" is sometimes helpful and sometimes not, but the Dhamma and its practice are always helpful! > T: Thank you for the correct understanding of my intention. Tep === #77056 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Oct 3, 2007 5:13 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Some Findings About Self and Self Views jonoabb Hi Howard upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Jon (and Tep) - > > In a message dated 10/1/2007 5:52:32 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > jonabbott@... writes: > > Likewise, when we hear a song on the radio, what is heard is audible > object ('sound') only; there is no 'song' or 'radio' actually *in* the > sound. And in terms of direct experience, there never is a (unitary) > song or radio or text or screen, because there is never more than one > kind of experience happening -- that is to say, never more than one kind > of consciousness arising, at its particular doorway -- at any moment. > =============================== > IMO, what you say here is true, but more that is true can be said. > When we hear a song we hear a sequence of sounds which are interrelated > in very particular ways, and it is those interrelationships that make the > sequence a song rather than just noise. It is due to the interrelatedness of the > heard sounds that enables the perceiving (and conceiving) of the song. And > to the extent that there is that interrelatedness, there is a song. The "song" > is imputed upon the sounds by thought, and there is no song independent of > thought. Thus the song is concept. But it is not baseless concept. It is by by > means of our conceptualization that we can know and deal with relations. Thanks for these comments on how the concept of a song can be arrived at. I'm sure there is much in what you say. However, my point was to draw attention to the reality of the object actually being experienced through the sense doors, and how it differs from what we usually take it to be. Time and again the Buddha emphasised how dhammas are to be seen and understood as they truly are. This I think means as they are at the moment of their being experienced. To my understanding of the theory, at the moments of seeing that are occurring as this message is being typed (in my case) or read (in yours), there is no text or monitor in the visible object being experienced. As to exactly *how* the concept of text or monitor comes to be created based on present sense-door experiences, that is an interesting area to consider, but something that I would see as being in the nature of a 'story about' rather than direct experience, if you see what I mean. Jon #77057 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Oct 3, 2007 5:22 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Some Findings About Self and Self Views jonoabb Hi Tep Tep Sastri wrote: > You explain that dhatus, for example, are dhammas "because they are > directly experienced". Can you elaborate on how you directly experience > dhatus without using conceptual thinking like we see in the suttas? First a general comment. I was not basing my comments on any particular personal experience, but was giving my (mainly theoretical) understanding of how it is for everyone. With that in mind, let me try answering your questions. Q. How can dhatus be directly experienced without the use of conceptual thinking? A. Visible object is being directly experienced now as we read this message, and there is also conceptual thinking going on about what is being seen. The Buddha expalined what are the actual elements that make up these occurrences, namely, various elements such as: (1) seeing consciousness, (2) the visible object being experienced by seeing consciousness, and (3) mind-door conciousness thinking about the visible object seen and thinking discursively about the ongoing 'story', and many others besides. These are all mere elements with neither an "I" (the experiencer) in the consciousness nor "text" or "monitor" in the object of the consciousness. The Buddha further explained that it is by developed panna that these dhammas can be seen as they truly are. It is because of accumulated ignorance and wrong view that these dhammas are not experienced as they truly are. (Thus, no need to do anything about the conceptual thinking, as that is not the 'culprit'.) > One more question, if you don't mind. > > How do you directly experience consciousness and gain the insight into > its characteristic of anicca? > Q. How can consciousness be directly experienced so that its characteristic of 'anicca' can be known? A. It is clear from many suttas (including the Satipatthana Sutta) that consciousness can be known by panna (see the reference there to knowing mind with lust as mind with lust, etc). I'm not sure if this is an issue for you? As regards the mechanics of the experiencing of consciousness, if that is your question, I'm not really sure. But I wonder whether we need to inquire into this. The fact is we can know for example now whether there is anger or attachment or whatever with the present consciousness, so I suppose the mechanism would be the same as now, except that panna would also be present. As regards the characteristic of anicca, from my understanding of the texts, insight into the 3 characteristics of dhammas develops as insight in general is developed. There is no need for any of the characteristics to be specifically targeted in any way. Hoping this helps take the discussion forward. Jon #77058 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Oct 3, 2007 5:26 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: An Introduction to Buddhism- 1 indriyabala Hi Sarah and Scott, - --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Scott & Tep, > > Yes, Tep - I remember our many good discussions of course. > > --- Scott Duncan wrote: > > > Dear Tep, > > > > Regarding: > > > > T: "Seaching the whole archive of DSG past messages (rather than only the UPs), you should find all of the 'particular discussions I had in mind'". > > > > Scott: Can you please be more specific? > .... > S: For a start, I just keyed in 'Sarah Tep indriyasamvara' and came across a controversial thread starting with this post of mine. Dear Htoo as well: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/50988 > > You could try following the links at the end..... > > Also: 'Tep indriya samvara' and 'Tep Kundaliya' would also open up quite a few threads (just go back to a year or two ago). By the time you've followed all the links and threads, it'll be the weekend again:) > > Also, see 'Kundaliya' in U.P. and follow threads of messages addressed to > or from Tep there perhaps. > > I'm sure Tep will be able to link you to other threads he has in mind. > > Metta, > > Sarah > =========== > T: Sarah is clever in using the Search Routine. Beyond the Kundaliya Sutta we also discussed Dantabhumi Sutta, which is about sequential/ step-by-step/ practice of the Dhamma. Several posted messages can be retrieved by entering the following search keywords : Dantabhumi Sutta, Tep. Scott, you and I spent a lot of time discussing AN 10.61 on the step- by-step practice and sequential arising of the dhammas. Believe it or not, there are 32 messages that can be retrieved by these searching keywords : AN 10.61, Tep, Scott. Another sutta that talks about the sequence of dhammas that supports yathabhuta~nana-dassana is SN 55.40. I did not use it here before. "Furthermore, the disciple of the noble ones is endowed with verified confidence in the Dhamma... verified confidence in the Sangha... virtues that are appealing to the noble ones: untorn, unbroken, unspotted, unsplattered, liberating, praised by the wise, untarnished, leading to concentration. Not content with those virtues pleasing to the noble ones, he exerts himself further in solitude by day or seclusion by night. For him, living thus heedfully, joy arises. In one who has joy, rapture arises. In one who has rapture, the body becomes serene. When the body is serene, one feels pleasure. Feeling pleasure, the mind becomes centered. When the mind is centered, phenomena become manifest. When phenomena are manifest, he is reckoned as one who dwells heedfully. ............ These three suttas should be enough to give you the idea, Scott. Tep === #77059 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Oct 3, 2007 1:43 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Some Findings About Self and Self Views upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 10/3/2007 8:14:00 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: > IMO, what you say here is true, but more that is true can be said. > When we hear a song we hear a sequence of sounds which are interrelated > in very particular ways, and it is those interrelationships that make the > sequence a song rather than just noise. It is due to the interrelatedness of the > heard sounds that enables the perceiving (and conceiving) of the song. And > to the extent that there is that interrelatedness, there is a song. The "song" > is imputed upon the sounds by thought, and there is no song independent of > thought. Thus the song is concept. But it is not baseless concept. It is by by > means of our conceptualization that we can know and deal with relations. Thanks for these comments on how the concept of a song can be arrived at. I'm sure there is much in what you say. However, my point was to draw attention to the reality of the object actually being experienced through the sense doors, and how it differs from what we usually take it to be. ------------------------------------------------------------ Howard: And your point is a valid one with which I concur. ------------------------------------------------------------ Time and again the Buddha emphasised how dhammas are to be seen and understood as they truly are. This I think means as they are at the moment of their being experienced. To my understanding of the theory, at the moments of seeing that are occurring as this message is being typed (in my case) or read (in yours), there is no text or monitor in the visible object being experienced. ------------------------------------------------------------- Howard That's right. The message, text, and monitor are experienced via mind door. The experiencing of them ADDS to our knowledge. Without a wisdom that enables directly experiencing interrelationships among dhammas and also without conceptualization that enables the indirect experiencing of interrelationships among dhammas, we would NOT know "the all" fully. Dhammas-in-relation is the nature of existence, not separate dhammas. -------------------------------------------------------------- As to exactly *how* the concept of text or monitor comes to be created based on present sense-door experiences, that is an interesting area to consider, but something that I would see as being in the nature of a 'story about' rather than direct experience, if you see what I mean. -------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Everything expressed as speech is "story". Most stories are of little importance. The story of interrelations is an important one, however, it seems to me, and a true one. ------------------------------------------------------------ Jon ============================== With metta, Howard #77060 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Oct 3, 2007 7:24 pm Subject: Re: Some Findings About Self and Self Views kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi Howard, my friend - > > You kindly wrote : > > >Howard: > > Better not to worry about all the theoretical discussions and > > reasonings, I think, and largely just "stick with the program"; > i.e., study the teachings and engage in practice. ;-) > > All this "talk" is sometimes helpful and sometimes not, but the > Dhamma and its practice are always helpful! > > > > T: Thank you for the correct understanding of my intention. > > Hi Howard and Tep, I couldn't agree more with what Howard has said. We understand it differently, but at least we agree on the wording. :-) Study and practice (pariyatti and patipatti) are the factors that lead to enlightenment (pativedha). They are conditioned dhammas, and, as such, they arise by conditions, not by means of a controlling self. It is hard to see this, but who ever said the Dhamma was easy? Ken H #77061 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Oct 3, 2007 7:53 pm Subject: Re: Puggala pa~n~natti indriyabala Hi DC (Nina, Sarah, Swee, Han and other members), - You wrote, "Tep, I have written a very long e-m I think, I am sure there are many errors in that, not just typos, errors of commission or omission, but errors of logic or critical thinking. I would be grateful, if you would go through it carefully and respond". T: Friend DC, I am not capable of judging your reply with respect to "critical thinking". So let me give you my best two-rupee response to the simple issues, and leave other difficult stuffs to the more qualified members. > DC: Question: Are you familiar with the Paradigm theory in the philosophy of science? T: No, I am not. See ? I am certainly not as qualified to discuss the several subject matters in your areas of interest as you might have thought. :-) ...................... DC: Again, in the first sentence it is 'analyzing a name (in the example, elctron); and in the second sentence 'analyzing physical properties of electron'. These are different things. Abhidhammikas use the word 'lakkha.na' for this purpose, if my memory serves me right. [see visuddhimagga]. This is important. It is those properties that define the state of the object (=name). T: I think what you explain above says that 'name' can mean either a title/label of an object/being or its state (properties). So when we say 'ruupa', it may be mean a label for ruupa-khandha or a dhamma that is a state of the body (e.g. a body posture). Is that thought acceptable? ............ DC: The state changes because of interactions with the environment (external world). These are the actions (kamma or kiriya). Do you see the anlogy with a power system? The state of a power system is determined by a set of voltages and currents (really a matrix). Its state is changed by various interactions with the external world: operator interventions; lightning and so on. The word power system is what we have agreed to call it. We might as well as have called it an electric system, electro-mechanical energy conversion system and so on. I hope this will clarify my position. T: You have clarified your position quite well, DC. What is so important about a name (as a label) anyway? Sometimes, people are overly concerned with their created names, conventions, defintions, languages, theories, etc. Other people think they can "get away" from man-made concepts and thus they seek a shelter in the Abhidhamma. But some of them in my opinion may still carry along the convention- creating habit with them and thus may not be able to truly see the ultimate dhammas because of the habit entanglement. ............... T: I like your explanation of the term "abhi~n~naa" and the way you connected it to other very important terms like 'pa~n~naasampadaa' in the Blessed One and 'sacchikatvaa'. DC: But what is important here is: The Buddha's enlightenment knowledge comes through abhi~n~naa. Suttas usually give six different kinds and at least three are required to become a Buddha (Tevijja vaccagotta sutta). Such knowledge is called vijjaa. DC: By the way pa~n~aa and pa~n~naakhandha are two different thing. Lot of confusion seems to have arisen on account of this. Now the Buddha says about his enlightenment: "abhi~n~neyya.m abhi~n~naata.m, pahaatabba.m ca pahiina.m, bhaavetabba.m ca bhaavita.m, buddhohamasmi braahmana" This means: I have known what should be known by higher-knowing (abhi~n~naa), I have abandoned what sould be abandoned, I have developed, what should be developed, I am therefore the Buddha. (These are my own translations for the purpose of bringing out the meaning). Again, in numerous places in the suttas you get the phrase: "saya.m abhi~n~naaya sacchikatvaa" with reference to Dhamma. Dhamma that has been realised by the Buddha through higher- knowing (abhi~n~naa). Dhamma, here, is really the Four Noble Truths (the Dhamma). I hope I have made myself clear about the meaning of abhi~n~naa, as I understand it. T: Thank you very much for giving your translation for the Pali text, otherwise I'd be lost. But, frankly, to be even more useful I'd suggest that you explain other Pali terms too (e.g. ahaatabba.m, bhaavetabba.m, and bhaavita.m). ............. DC: In a worldly sense, "sacchikaroti" is to really see with one's own eyes. In a legal set up, to establish the truth you normally need eye-witnesses. It is eye-witnessing in that sense. But in the context that is under discussion, eye-witnessing must come through abhi~n~naa. So your seeing, if you are not an ariya, is not sacchikatvaa. It is the ariyans way yes, but it is not only confined to ariyans. It is just a power of the mind. Without travelling the Buddhist path, you can get these powers. A good living example is Satya Sai Baba". T: So you say that 'abhi~n~naaya sacchikatvaa' means realization through abhi~n~naa, which means higher knowing. Does the "realization" require both samatha and vipassana? I believe it does. My next question is : are there other ways to realize the truths (ariya-sacca), i.e. become enlightened at least at the Sotapanna level, without "abhi~n~naa"? It is confusing because you say sacchikatvaa is not "confined" to ariyans. ........... DC: You have to go beyond Satipa.t.thaana to sammaa samaadhi. From their transition is possible. Again, no short cuts. You have to travel the full Noble Eightfold Path. You can't be a puthujjana and an ariyan at the same time. It is an irreversible change. T: I agree with you, DC, that samma-samaadhi (supported by the other seven factors) is necessary for the Four Noble Truths penetration. But there are several discussions (here and other places) about the true meaning of samma-samaadhi and whether it is required for Stream- entry (i.e fruition of Sotapatti). What's your thought on this? .......... DC: I like it, how do you define true or the truth? Let's try to find a defintion that is acceptable. This is a question that has been troubling philosphers from time immemorial? So the discussion can go on forever. On the other hand we should arrive at a working definition in the light of the Teachings of the Buddha. T: Let me leave the definition task to you, if you don't mind. Tep === #77062 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Oct 3, 2007 3:58 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Some Findings About Self and Self Views upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and Tep) - In a message dated 10/3/2007 10:26:09 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi Howard, my friend - > > You kindly wrote : > > >Howard: > > Better not to worry about all the theoretical discussions and > > reasonings, I think, and largely just "stick with the program"; > i.e., study the teachings and engage in practice. ;-) > > All this "talk" is sometimes helpful and sometimes not, but the > Dhamma and its practice are always helpful! > > > > T: Thank you for the correct understanding of my intention. > > Hi Howard and Tep, I couldn't agree more with what Howard has said. We understand it differently, but at least we agree on the wording. :-) ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I'm not so sure that we really understand it differently. I think it possible we merely express it differently at times. --------------------------------------------------------- Study and practice (pariyatti and patipatti) are the factors that lead to enlightenment (pativedha). They are conditioned dhammas, and, as such, they arise by conditions, not by means of a controlling self. ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I agree, one hundred percent! :-) ------------------------------------------------------------- It is hard to see this, but who ever said the Dhamma was easy? Ken H =========================== With metta, Howard #77064 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Oct 3, 2007 8:21 pm Subject: Re: Some Findings About Self and Self Views indriyabala Hi Kenh (and Howard), - > > >Howard: > > > Better not to worry about all the theoretical discussions > and reasonings, I think, and largely just "stick with the program"; > > i.e., study the teachings and engage in practice. ;-) > > > All this "talk" is sometimes helpful and sometimes not, but the Dhamma and its practice are always helpful! > > > > > > KenH : > I couldn't agree more with what Howard has said. We understand it > differently, but at least we agree on the wording. :-) > > Study and practice (pariyatti and patipatti) are the factors that > lead to enlightenment (pativedha). They are conditioned dhammas, and, as such, they arise by conditions, not by means of a controlling > self. It is hard to see this, but who ever said the Dhamma was easy? ........... T: I could not agree more with you either that the Dhamma is not easy. It must be very difficult indeed, since we oft do not agree on at least the followings : self, no self, persons, reality, worlds, birth, existence, non-existence, mind, breath meditation, samatha, jhanna, samaadhi, moment, practicing the Dhamma, Tathagata. Tep === #77065 From: "Evie" Date: Wed Oct 3, 2007 9:59 pm Subject: Going on a trip in two days. eviebgreen Hello everyone, I just wanted to hop online here and let everyone know that if I am not around this weekend it is because my husband and I are going on a trip to Springfield, Missouri. It should be fun, lots of great places to visit and also may be visiting a local Buddhist group down there if we have time as well. So I will write how our trip went when we get back. If I don't reply to you tomorrow it will be because I am getting the car a check up, and packing for our trip. I hope that everyone has a peaceful and great rest of their week and a great weekend too. Take care and peace be with you. -Evelyn #77066 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Oct 3, 2007 10:05 pm Subject: Re: Some Findings About Self and Self Views kenhowardau Hi Howard and Tep, Thanks for your replies. Howard wrote: ------------- > I'm not so sure that we really understand it differently. I think it possible we merely express it differently at times. > ------------- And Tep wrote: ------------------------- > I could not agree more with you either that the Dhamma is not easy. It must be very difficult indeed, since we oft do not agree on at least the followings : self, no self, persons, reality, worlds, birth, existence, non-existence, mind, breath meditation, samatha, jhanna, samaadhi, moment, practicing the Dhamma, Tathagata. > -------------------------- Coincidentally, I have been wondering lately if I should concentrate more on points of agreement and on less disagreement. There is much to be said for that, but I am not sure it could ever be my style. In fact, I feel almost devious (or manipulative) whenever I try to appear amenable. :-) Howard, I was alluding to our different understandings of 'practice.' You believe practice needs to be preceded by an intention [to practise]. I don't. In fact, I believe such an intention would indicate that the conditions for practice were not yet in place. Sorry if I have put that undiplomatically. :-) Tep, I agree that you and I are worlds apart when it comes to Dhamma study. A clear, unambiguous doctrine of no self (as distinct from a mere "not-self strategy") is the core of the Dhamma. I feel sure about that. I feel more sure about that than about anything else I can think of! But if you are happy to be up-front about these differences of opinion then so am I. Ken H #77067 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 12:52 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Perfections Corner (22) nilovg Dear Han, thank you very much for your answer with wise words and good reminders. Op 4-okt-2007, om 0:34 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > Burmese Elders also used to tell us to consider > wrong-doers as our benefactors. They are like > examiners, testing our patience (and other paramiis as > well), and they are, in a way, helping us to develop > our patience even more. We used to say that if there > were no Devadatta, we would probably not have Gotama > Buddha. When we read Jatakas, we always read the > villain as future Devadatta. At first, I was angry > with him, but later, I pity him. In a way, he had > sacrificed himself to the extent of being reborn in > hell, but by doing so he had helped our Blessed One to > become the Buddha. Therefore, Khun Sujin was right: > ‘let her say this again and again.’ ------- N: It is good to be reminded of our benefactors, they are all around, and they can come up even unexpectantly. Also during our India trip we shall have many tests for patience. Devadatta, in many lives, was a benefactor in as far as he was an object of patience for the Bodhisatta. But the Bodhisatta was proclaimed a future Buddha anyway by Kassapa Buddha. He had taken the decision anyway to help others to get across to the further shore. -------- H: The importance of siila, samaadhi, pa~n~naa in the perfection of patience is evidenced in Jataka No. 313, Khantii-vaadi Jataka. In that story, the King Kalaabu, out of jealousy cut off all the limbs of the Bodhisatta, and then cut off his nose and ears. The Bodhisatta was all the time practicing khantii-paramii, and seemed to be free from pain up to the time of his death due to the wounds. U Shwe Aung wrote that the Bodhisatta, while practicing khantii-paramii, could bear the pain because of his bhaavanaa (or satipatthana, you might say). Therefore, I like your concluding remark very much: “It is especially satipatthana that supports them, and vice versa.” ------ It is good if you can insert now and then remarks by U Shwe Aung. Nina. #77068 From: han tun Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 1:35 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Perfections Corner (22) hantun1 Dear Nina, Nina: Devadatta, in many lives, was a benefactor in as far as he was an object of patience for the Bodhisatta. But the Bodhisatta was proclaimed a future Buddha anyway by Kassapa Buddha. He had taken the decision anyway to help others to get across to the further shore. ---------- Han: Please consider what I wrote about Devadatta: “We used to say that if there were no Devadatta, we would probably not have Gotama Buddha.” as an exaggeration to emphasize how a wrong-doer can become a benefactor. In The Life Of The Buddha, taken from "The Teachings of the Buddha", published by the Burmese Ministry of Religious Affairs, it states that: “The Buddha Dipankara, standing in front of Sumedha preordained as follows: 'This young ascetic, lying down as a bridge at the risk of his life, will become a Buddha like me in the future." So, was it Kassapa Buddha (as you had written) or Dipankara Buddha, who proclaimed the future Buddha? There was a vast gap between these two Buddhas. Kassapa Buddha was the 24th Buddha after Dipankara Buddha. In the Chronicle of Twenty-four Buddhas, by Mingun Sayadaw, the 24 Buddhas were listed as follows. 1 Buddha Dipankara 2 Buddha Kondanna 3 Buddha Mangala 4 Buddha Sumana 5 Buddha Revata 6 Buddha Sobhita 7 Buddha Anomadassi 8 Buddha Paduma 9 Buddha Narada 10 Buddha Padumuttara 11 Buddha Sumedha 12 Buddha Sujata 13 Buddha Piyadassi 14 Buddha Atthadassi 15 Buddha Dhammadassi 16 Buddha Siddhattha 17 Buddha Tissa 18 Buddha Phussa 19 Buddha Vipassi 20 Buddha Sikhi 21 Buddha Vessabhu 22 Buddha Kakusandha 23 Buddha Konagamana 24 Buddha Kassapa Respectfully, Han #77069 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 2:05 am Subject: Q. Re: Conditions, Ch 15, no 9. nilovg Dear Tep, there is still this post of yours I did not answer and I should before India. -------- T: So this is what I think I understand you were saying : -- The "paññå of the noble eightfold Path" to be developed here is at the beginning; it is the same as the right view of the noble eightfold Path. The Path has not been entered yet. ------- N: The beginning right view or pa~n~naa cannot be the same as the advanced one, it has to grow. As to entering the Path, as was often said (not only be me), pariyatti has to be firm, before there can be pa.tipatti. Pariyatti is, as Sukon explained, not mere theory, but already the investigation of the dhamma appearing at the present moment. Seeing or feeling or hardness appear now, and there can be a beginning of investigation of them, though the level is only a beginning level, thus, not precise yet. In this way there will gradually be conditions for awareness and understanding of the level of pa.tipatti. -------- T: -- Even at the beginning the right view development must be supported by the other Path factors such as samma-sankappa (right thinking), samma vayama(right effort) and some degree of samma-sati with samma- samaadhi. ----- N: Vitakka which 'touches' the nama or rupa which appears and is object of investigation, supports understanding. But when there is not yet pa.tipatti I would not speak of sammaa-sankappa, etc. Sammaa means perfect. -------- T: -- All of the supporting "samma" factors arise at the same instant with the development of this right view. ------ N: See above. Even when there is pa.tipatti and the Path is still mundane, it is fivefold or sixfold. You are right that the factors develop together. See former messages as to the siila of the eightfold Path. -------- T: -- The "vehicle" for developing the baby right view is the contemplation(vipassana) or mindfulness of nama and rupa in the present moment. ------- N: Yes, but the level of pariyatti is the beginning. The term vipassanaa I would reserve for the stages of insight, and we cannot expect them to arise soon. Ignorance has been accumulated for so long. --------- T: -- The mindfulness of nama and rupa in the present moment must be supported by an "opportunity for abstention of wrong speech, action or livelihood". ------- N: It is above all supported by right understanding of what nama is, what rupa is, what sati is, different from thinking. Then, it is supported by all the perfections, including siila. Thus, any kind of kusala through body, speech and mind. We do not have to think of an opportunity for abstention. Moreover, siila includes also helping and respect. If there is anything still unclear we could continue after India. Nina. #77070 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 1:39 am Subject: The Hells are Real! bhikkhu0 Friends: Downfall Rebirth in one of many Hells is Extreme Torture! There are Eight Great Hells! These are: 1: The Revival Ever Hell (SañjÄ«va), 2: The Black Thread Hell (KÄ?lasutta), 3: The Crushing Hell (SanghÄ?ta), 4: The Screaming Hell (Roruva), 5: The Loud Screaming Hell (MahÄ?roruva), 6: The Burning Torture Hell (Tapa), 7: The Great Torture Hell (MahÄ?tapa), 8: The Relentless Hell (AvicÄ«). 1: The Revival Hell (SañjÄ«va) where one survives & cannot die from pain! Those who, because of greed, confusion, fear, or anger, kill living beings or having nursed them, slaughter them for sale, they will be reborn in the SañjÄ«va Hell. There though killed and killed again for many thousands of years, because they revive there again and again for more pain, this is called SañjÄ«va Hell: The Revival Forever Hell... Even death cannot stop it! 2: The Black Thread Hell (KÄ?lasutta) where one is cut up by a black line! Men who are hostile towards friends, mother, father & good pure ones, who are slanderers & liars they go to The Black Thread Hell (KÄ?lasutta). Since they are split like wood with burning saws along a marking line, made by black thread, so it is called KÄ?lasutta: The Black Thread Hell... 3: The Crushing Hell (SanghÄ?ta) where one is crushed to pulp repeatedly! Those men who kill goats, rams, jackals, hares, rats, deer, boar & other free living & roaming beings, they end up in The Crushing Hell (SanghÄ?ta). Since, crushed together between huge mountains, splattered, squeezed, smashed, & squashed to fluid mash there in a total slaughter, this niraya is called SanghÄ?ta: The Crushing Hell... 4: The Screaming Hell (Roruva) where one screams like a bound pig in fire! Those who harass or torment other being's body & mind & who cheats go to The Screaming Hell (Roruva). There they give forth terrible screams, howls, yells, in outcry over being constantly consumed by fierce fire, & ferocious flames. This blaze is thus called: Roruva The Screaming Hell... 5: The Loud Screaming Hell (MahÄ?roruva) where one screams even more! Those who steal what was entrusted to them or steal the possessions of devas, high people, recluses & teachers, by causing suffering even to such good ones go to MahÄ?roruva: The Loud Screaming Hell. There the pain & affliction of the fire torment & the screaming is even greater then ever. This inferno is therefore called MahÄ?roruva: The Loud Screaming Hell... 6: The Torture Hell (Tapa) is an immense conflagration of bitter pain! Whoever burns creatures in conflagrations such as forest fires, that person, weeping and wailing, is eaten by a fiery fire of blazing flames. Since this severe burning torture continues without interruption, this is known in this world here as TÄ?pana: The Burning Torture Hell... 7: The Great Torture Hell (MahÄ?tapa) is an even more burning hurting! The foolish nihilist who perversely insists that Dhamma is non-Dhamma and whoever harms other beings deliberately is tortured by fierce fire in The Great Torture Hell (MahÄ?tapa). Since it burns beings even worse than theTÄ?pana, this holocaust is called MahÄ?tapa: Great Torture Hell... 8: The Relentless Hell (AvicÄ«) where the pain is without break or pause! Those showing enmity to those of greater virtue, slaying Nobles, pure disciples or also their mother, father, or teachers, they are reborn in The Relentless Hell (AvicÄ«). Even the bones burns to ashes there, since the heat is excessively terrible. Because there is no interval, break, or pause, this is called AvicÄ«: The Relentless Hell... Without interruption.. These are the 8 great Hells explained by the Teacher of the 3 worlds! Source (edited extract): PañcagatidÄ«panÄ« by Ashvaghosa & Saddhammaghosa 11-12th century AC. Tr. by Ann A. Hazlewood. Journal of the PÄ?li Text Society. Vol. XI 1987: http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=132714 For more on the 136 Hells (Niraya , Naraka): http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/DPPN/n/niraya.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/IV/Ways_to_the_Barbeque.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Inevitable_Consequences.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/Canon/Sutta/KN/Dhammapada.htm#Chapter XXII Hell - Niraya The Buddha on the Hells: MN 130 The Divine Messengers. DevadÅ«ta Sutta! http://www.mettanet.org/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima3/130-de\ vaduta-e.html Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka * <...> #77071 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 2:10 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Perfections Corner (22) nilovg Dear Han, Op 4-okt-2007, om 10:35 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > Han: Please consider what I wrote about Devadatta: “We > used to say that if there were no Devadatta, we would > probably not have Gotama Buddha.” as an exaggeration > to emphasize how a wrong-doer can become a benefactor. ------- N: Yes, I also took this as an emphasis. Sorry, you are quite right, it was Dipankara Buddha. After that the Bodhisatta renewed his vows in the presence of following Buddhas. Nina. #77072 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 3:14 am Subject: Asoka, Ch 7, no 2. nilovg Dear friends, We read that the Buddha is called “Tathågata” because he has “thus come” (in Påli: tathå means “thus”, and ågato means “come”). He has come in the same way as the previous Buddhas, through the same aspiration and the fulfilling of all the “perfections”. He relinquished limbs, eyes, wealth, kingdom, children and wife. He developed the factors leading to enlightenment, including the four satipatthånas and the eightfold Path, just as previous Buddhas. The perfections (påramís [1]) lead across the sea of “saósåra“ (the cycle of birth and death) to the other shore, to nibbåna. The perfections are: generosity (dåna), síla, detachment (nekkhamma), energy (viriya), paññå, patience (khanti), truthfulness (sacca), determination (aditthåna), mettå and equanimity (upekkhå). All ten påramís are needed, but paññå is needed above all; the other nine påramís cannot develop without paññå, they are the “attendants” of paññå. In the “Commentary to the “Cariyåpitaka” (Basket of Conduct), the “Paramatthadípaní” (Clarifier of Sweet Meaning), wisdom is called the chief cause for the practice of the other påramís, the cause for the purification of all the påramís. When satipatthåna is developed and there is awareness of kusala as a conditioned dhamma, paññå can know it as non-self. The perfection of truthfulness or sincerity has many aspects. Because of truthfulness one develops kusala not for one’s own gain or advantage, but only with the aim to have less defilements. Without truthfulness defilements cannot be eradicated. The perfection of detachment, nekkhamma, does not only mean detachment from the household life, but detachment from the clinging to self and the abandoning of all defilements. In this sense we can understand the words of the Commentary to the “Sangíti sutta” (The Recital, Dialogues of the Buddha III, no. 33), the “Sumangala Vilåsiní”, that all kusala dhammas are the “element of detachment”, nekkhamma dhåtu. However, if we try to have kusala with the idea of self, there is no detachment. Khun Sujin reminded us that we think mostly of ourselves, of our own gain. The clinging to the self is bound to arise time and again, and therefore the development of satipatthåna is essential, it should be developed together with the perfections. Khun Sujin stressed that we should not cling to the conventional terms of the påramís, we do not have to think that we shall develop dåna, síla or any of the other påramís. Then there would again be an idea of self who tries to do something. If we keep in mind that the goal is detachment, we can perform any kind of kusala for which there is an opportunity, depending on conditions. We develop the påramí of paññå when we listen to the Dhamma, not in order to get something for ourselves, but in order to have more understanding of the reality appearing at this moment. But the clinging to self is bound to arise, even while we are considering and investigating what we heard. ---------- 1. The Påli term para can mean: further, beyond. ******** Nina. #77073 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 3:15 am Subject: Conditions, Ch 16, no 5. nilovg Dear friends, As regards prenascent presence-condition, this pertains to the rúpas which are bases, vatthus, and the rúpas which are the sense objects and which condition the citta by way of object-condition. The rúpas which are bases and objects condition citta after having arisen prior to it [1]. If we merely think of a prenascent condition we may not know whether it is still present when it conditions another reality. The teaching of prenascent presence-condition shows us that, although the conditioning reality has arisen previously, it is still present when it conditions another reality. Visible object conditions seeing by way of prenascent presence-condition. It has arisen before seeing, but when it is experienced by seeing it is still present. The other cittas of the eye-door process also experience visible object which is still present. Seeing arises at the eye-base and it is conditioned by this rúpa by way of prenascent presence-condition. Learning about the base and the object which condition seeing helps us to understand the truth of anattå, non-self. There is no self who can cause eye-base and visible object to arise at the right moment, prior to seeing, and to condition seeing while they are still present. Presence-condition can also be postnascent. Citta consolidates rúpas of the body which have previously arisen but have not fallen away yet by way of postnascence-condition and by way of postnascent presence- condition. The teaching of postnascent presence-condition shows us that citta and the rúpas of the body it consolidates are still present to each other. The “Patthåna” (Faultless Triplet, Investigation Chapter, § 435, VII, d,e) mentions food and also physical life-faculty (rúpa-jívitindriya) separately under presence-condition. We read: Edible food is related to this body by presence-condition. Physical life-faculty is related to kamma-produced rúpa by presence- condition. After edible food has been taken and it has pervaded the body, the nutritive essence it contains supports the internal nutritive essence present in the groups of rúpa of the body, so that new groups of rúpa can be produced [2]. When we consider the relation of nutrition to the body it helps us to see that we go on living because of conditions. The rúpa which is nutritive essence present in each group of rúpas of the body can produce new rúpas, but it cannot do so without the support of the nutritive essence present in food. Nutritive essence is one of the four factors which can produce rúpas of the body, the other being kamma, citta and temperature. Edible food conditions the rúpas of the body by way of presence-condition, it supports and consolidates them. ------------- 1. Rúpa cannot at its arising moment condition citta since it is then too weak. It can only condition citta after it has arisen, thus, at the moments of its presence. Therefore, it has to arise prior to the citta it conditions. Rúpa lasts as long as seventeen moments of citta. 2. Nutritive essence is one of the eight inseparable rúpas present in each group of rúpas. ******** Nina. #77074 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 12:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Some Findings About Self and Self Views upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and Tep) - Howard, I was alluding to our different understandings of 'practice.' You believe practice needs to be preceded by an intention [to practise]. I don't. In fact, I believe such an intention would indicate that the conditions for practice were not yet in place. ------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, we certainly differ on that, Ken. IMO, one can no more practice without intention than consider the Dhamma or write posts without intention. You seem to think that intention presupposes self. I do not. Intention comes in three varieties: kusala, akusala, and kiriya, the first two being accompanied by some degree of sense of self. But intention, per se, is anatta. ----------------------------------------------------------- Sorry if I have put that undiplomatically. :-) -------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: You haven't - you just put it mistakenly! ;-)) Our difference on this issue is not so much the role of intention in practice, but, I believe, what we mean by "practice". What you call "practice" doesn't exist for one not yet awakened, and that is an odd usage from my perspective. So, in a way, we are speaking different languages, and I'm afraid the translation process is too difficult to attempt to go through. ================================= With metta, Howard #77075 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 4:59 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (68) nichiconn Dear Friends, 13. Viisatinipaato 3. Caapaatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa part 3 txt: Saa cassa dhiitaa abhiruupaa hoti dassaniiyaa. Atha kho upako aajiivako bhikkhaacaaravelaaya.m migaluddakassa ghara.m gato parivisitu.m upagata.m caapa.m disvaa raagena abhibhuuto bhu~njitumpi asakkonto bhaajanena bhatta.m aadaaya vasana.t.thaana.m gantvaa bhatta.m ekamante nikkhipitvaa "sace caapa.m labhissaami, jiivaami, no ce, marissaamii"ti niraahaaro nipajji. Sattame divase migaluddako aagantvaa dhiitara.m pucchi- "ki.m mayha.m arahante na pamajjii"ti? RD: Now, she was of great beauty; and Upaka, seeking alms at her home, and captivated by her beauty, could not eat, but took his food home, and laid down fasting, vowing he would die should he not win Caapaa. After seven days the father returned, and, on inquiring for his 'Arahant,' PRUITT: Now his daughter was beautiful and fair to behold. And then the Aajivaka Upaka went to the house of the hunter at the time of his alms round. When he saw Caapaa as she approached to served him, passion overwhelmed him, and he was not able to eat. He took away the meal in his pot and went to his dwelling place. Throwing the meal down to one side, he said, "If I can have Caapaa, I shall live. If not, I shall die." And he lay down without eating. A week later the deer hunter returned and asked his daughter, "Have you neglected our Arahat?" txt: Saa "ekadivasameva aagantvaa puna naagatapubbo"ti aaha. Migaluddako ca taavadevassa vasana.t.thaana.m gantvaa "ki.m, bhante, aphaasukan"ti paade parimajjanto pucchi. Upako nitthunanto parivattatiyeva. So "vadatha, bhante, ya.m mayaa sakkaa kaatu.m, sabba.m ta.m karissaamii"ti aaha. Upako ekena pariyaayena attano ajjhaasaya.m aarocesi. "Itaro jaanaasi pana, bhante, ki~nci sppan"ti. "Na jaanaamii"ti. "Na, bhante, ki~nci sippa.m ajaanantena sakkaa ghara.m aavasitun"ti. So aaha- "naaha.m ki~nci sippa.m jaanaami, apica tumhaaka.m ma.msahaarako bhavissaami, ma.msa~nca vikki.nissaamii"ti. RD: heard he had not come again after the first day. The trapper sought him, and Upaka, moaning, and rolling over, confessed his plight. The trapper asked if he knew any craft, and he answered, 'No;' but offered to fetch their game and sell it. PRUITT: She said, "He only came one day. But then he did not come as before." Then the deer hunter immediately went to [Upaka's] dwelling place and rubbing his feet, asked him, "Venerable sir, are you uncomfortable?" Upaka only twisted around, groaning. [The hunter] said, "Tell me, venerable sir, what it is possible for me to do. I will do all of that for you." Upaka explained his intention in a single discourse. The other one said, "Do you know a craft, venerable sir?" "No, I don't," he said. "Venerable sir," [the hunter said,] "no one can live in our house who doesn't know a craft." [Upaka] said, "I don't know a craft, but I will become the meat carrier for all of you and sell your meat." === to be continued, connie #77076 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 5:04 am Subject: Re: An Introduction to Buddhism- 1 scottduncan2 Dear Tep, Thanks for the reply: T: "Scott, you and I spent a lot of time discussing AN 10.61 on the step-by-step practice and sequential arising of the dhammas..." Scott: I will be pursuing these posts, but, as Sarah correctly notes, it'll take some time. I do recall our discussions vaguely. I think the main difference in views is that what you refer to as 'step-by-step' and 'sequential' does not seem to be about momentary dhammas arising and ceasing and functioning according to a complex interweaving of conditionality. Rather, this seems to be about more or less global 'states' consisting of conceptual constructs. These conceptual global states seem to have to occur 'in sequence' but I don't read you to consider that the momentaneity of dhammas is relevant unless one is already an arahat. In this way, you seem to downplay or simply dismiss what one might call an abhidhamma method of analysis as being beyond consideration for ordinary 'people'. Is this a fair summation? Sincerely, Scott. #77077 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 1:08 am Subject: Anapansati: A Two-Edged Sword upasaka_howard Hi, all - The practice of mindfulness of breathing is difficult, but the cause of the difficulty is also a strength. In general, whatever the meditation anchor used, as one progresses with a meditation, and as mental and bodily calm is on the increase, it definitely is the case that the breath becomes slower and more subtle. This is so even when the breath itself is the central meditation subject. This fact constitutes both a difficulty in anapanasati practice and also a benefit, depending on how one responds. If one lacks energy or knowledge in one's meditating, and if one doesn't guide the meditation properly, mindfulness and concentration may be inadequate to the task as the breath becomes more subtle, and one may well lapse into a sinking state or a distracted state. On the other hand, if there is the understanding that the breath will increase in subtlety, and here is an example of the importance of knowing the teaching in advance, by summoning up energy and heightened attention so as not to "lose the breath," this increases clarity, presence, and concentration. As these kusala factors increase, breath continues to become ever more subtle, which leads to further increase of these conditions, and so on - a positive feedback loop. With metta, Howard P. S. There are other benefits to anapanasati, with a fundamental one being that it is an in-tandem meditative practice and is a complete practice and can take one "all the way". P. P. S. Leaving on our trip in less than an hour, so no replies to this will be responded to until our return almost a week from now. #77078 From: "Phil" Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 6:34 am Subject: Re: Anapansati: A Two-Edged Sword philofillet Hi Howard and all I've been thinking a lot (and experiencing, and experimenting) with mindfulness of the breath. One thing is for sure - the Buddha urges us to set up mindfulness of the body first and foremost. And there are benefits to be experienced even by those who do it in a clumsy, lobha-loaded way. That post has to be set up for the six animals to lie down by - and they do. It seems pretty clear that mindfulness of breath is the best way to do this, even in blatant, clumsy approaches such as mine. I look forward to discussing this a lot more when you and others when you get back - I'll wait until then. Metta, Phil > P. S. There are other benefits to anapanasati, with a fundamental one being > that it is an in-tandem meditative practice and is a complete practice and > can take one "all the way". > #77079 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 1:46 pm Subject: Re: Away Until Evening of October 9 indriyabala Hi Howard, - May your auto travel be free from accidents and any other troubles. Tep ==== #77080 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 2:18 pm Subject: Re: Some Findings About Self and Self Views indriyabala Hi Jon, - You wrote : Jon: First a general comment. I was not basing my comments on any particular personal experience, but was giving my (mainly theoretical) understanding of how it is for everyone. T: Thank you for the reply which I carefully read through. I respect your personal right to limit the discussion to only theoretical understanding of the dhammas. I think your theoretical statements are flawless. ............ Jon: Hoping this helps take the discussion forward. T: Since my inquiry and discussion are mainly about your practical application of the Abhidhamma and any relating personal experience, I have no further discussion going forward. Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Hi Tep > > Tep Sastri wrote: > > You explain that dhatus, for example, are dhammas "because they are directly experienced". Can you elaborate on how you directly experience dhatus without using conceptual thinking like we see in the suttas? > #77081 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 2:37 pm Subject: Re: Some Findings About Self and Self Views indriyabala Hi KenH (and Howard), - I am in complete agreement with you that we should not "try" to appear amenable. I think people respect honesty not pretense. > > Tep, I agree that you and I are worlds apart when it comes to Dhamma study. A clear, unambiguous doctrine of no self (as distinct from a mere "not-self strategy") is the core of the Dhamma. I feel sure about that. I feel more sure about that than about anything else I can think of! > > But if you are happy to be up-front about these differences of > opinion then so am I. > > Ken H T: That willingness to be "up-front" with me is admirable, Ken. Please feel free anytime to tell me about "the differences" if and whenever you see a benefit from doing so. Thank you in advance. Tep === #77082 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 3:40 pm Subject: Re: An Introduction to Buddhism- 1 indriyabala Dear Scott, You are a good communicator. Thank you for allowing me another opportunity to explain my views concerning the "Abhidhamma method of analysis", as you put it. Scott: I think the main difference in views is that what you refer to as 'step-by-step' and 'sequential' does not seem to be about momentary dhammas arising and ceasing and functioning according to a complex interweaving of conditionality. Rather, this seems to be about more or less global 'states' consisting of conceptual constructs. ................... T: The arising and ceasing characteristics (say, of the five aggregates) and the Dependent Origination are the "truths" that are applicable to all the dhammas (see the 201 dhammas to be "directly known" in the Path of Discrimination, I, 5). These "truths" are clearly understood with yathabhuta~nana-dassana(the knowledge and vision of things as they really are) that is one of the sequential dhammas in AN 10.61 and in other similar suutas such as the Kundaliya Sutta and the Upanisa Sutta(SN 12.23). These dhammas are not conceptual constructs. SN 12.23 : "Thus, monks, ignorance is the supporting condition for kamma formations, kamma formations are the supporting condition for consciousness, consciousness is the supporting condition for mentality-materiality, mentality-materiality is the supporting condition for the sixfold sense base, the sixfold sense base is the supporting condition for contact, contact is the supporting condition for feeling, feeling is the supporting condition for craving, craving is the supporting condition for clinging, clinging is the supporting condition for existence, existence is the supporting condition for birth, birth is the supporting condition for suffering, suffering is the supporting condition for faith, faith is the supporting condition for joy, joy is the supporting condition for rapture, rapture is the supporting condition for tranquillity, tranquillity is the supporting condition for happiness, happiness is the supporting condition for concentration, concentration is the supporting condition for the knowledge and vision of things as they really are, the knowledge and vision of things as they really are is the supporting condition for disenchantment, disenchantment is the supporting condition for dispassion, dispassion is the supporting condition for emancipation, and emancipation is the supporting condition for the knowledge of the destruction (of the cankers). ................... Scott: These conceptual global states seem to have to occur 'in sequence' but I don't read you to consider that the momentaneity of dhammas is relevant unless one is already an arahat. In this way, you seem to downplay or simply dismiss what one might call an abhidhamma method of analysis as being beyond consideration for ordinary 'people'. Is this a fair summation? T: Not exactly. To be fair you should say that Tep has talked about the dhammas to be developed in non-ariyans, beginning with 'faith' to 'the knowledge and vision of things as they really are'. After s/he becomes ariyan, then the sequential development goes further to 'the knowledge of the destruction (of the cankers)'. It is clear that these dhammas are developed over a long time period rather than all of them arise simultaneously in a "single moment". You should say further that Tep does not ridicule the Abhidhammikas who believe in the momentaneity of dhammas, although he calls that view theoretical & impractical "ivory-tower approach". Tep === #77083 From: LBIDD@... Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 4:09 pm Subject: Vism.XVII,197 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga), Ch. XVII 197. 3. 'By inclusion': now there is (a) the simple mentality with consciousness as condition in both the course of an existence and rebirth-linking in the immaterial sphere, and in the course of an existence in the five-constituent becoming, and (b) the simple materiality with consciousness as condition in both cases among the non-percipient, and in the course of an existence in the five-constituent becoming, and (c) the [combined] mentality-materiality with consciousness as condition in both cases in the five-constituent becoming. All that mentality and materiality and mentality-materiality should be understood as 'mentality-materiality with consciousness as condition', including them under mentality-materiality according to the method that allows any one part to represent any remaining one of its kind.38 ---------------------------- Note 38. The expression 'ekadesasaruupekasesa' is grammatically explained at Pm. 623; see allied expressions, 'katekasesa' (par.204) and 'ekasese kate' (par. 223). Cf. Paa.nini i, 2, 64 ************************* 197. sa"ngahaati ettha ca ya.m aaruppe pavattipa.tisandhiisu, pa~ncavokaarabhave ca pavattiya.m vi~n~naa.napaccayaa naamameva, ya~nca asa~n~nesu sabbattha, pa~ncavokaarabhave ca pavattiya.m vi~n~naa.napaccayaa ruupameva, ya~nca pa~ncavokaarabhave sabbattha vi~n~naa.napaccayaa naamaruupa.m, ta.m sabba.m naama~nca ruupa~nca naamaruupa~nca naamaruupanti eva.m ekadesasaruupekasesanayena sa"ngahetvaa vi~n~naa.napaccayaa naamaruupanti veditabba.m. #77084 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 4:08 pm Subject: Re: "there is no ‘person’" - "The controversy on ‘person’ is ended" indriyabala Hi Sarah (and all), - It was a pleasure for me to read all the "good materials" from the Vism that you put together in this single post (#77001). It is not evident however that you might have a hidden purpose besides summarizing the considerations about self ('attaa') that include individual self-hood or personality (atta-bhaava), naming(abhidhaana), presence (sabbhaava), 'being' (bhaata), non-existent (avijjamaana), and 'the highest sense this concept will allow'(pa~n~natti paramatthiyaa)'. I hope you may one day have time to give your thoughts on these dfficult terms. Tep === #77085 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 4:18 pm Subject: Vism.XVII,197 nichiconn Path of Purity, p.672-3: "By groups" - what name conditioned by consciousness there is at procedure and rebirth in the formless and at procedure in existence of the five constituents; and what matter conditioned by consciousness there is everywhere among the perceptionless and at procedure in existence of the five constituents; and what name and form [561] conditioned by consciousness there is everywhere in existence of the five constituents, all that name and form and name-and-form, being grouped together as name-and-form by leaving out those terms which correspond to its members {i.e. the three terms: name, and form, and name-and-form, have their counterparts, as far as the letter goes, in the last term} should be understood as "name-and-form conditioned by consciousness." #77086 From: han tun Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 6:16 pm Subject: Perfections Corner (23) hantun1 Dear All, This is the continuation of Chapter 10: The Perfection of Equanimity, taken from the book “The Perfections leading to Enlightenment” by Sujin Boriharnwanaket and translated by Nina van Gorkom. Questions, comments, or different opinions are welcome. ------------------------------ We read in the Commentary to the “Basket of Conduct”: ---------- “The Bodhisatta developed all ten perfections. Beginning with generosity, he gave away all his possesions and his own body, without concern over whatever others wanted to do with it. That is the perfection of generosity. He abstained from whatever was improper and wrong, and that is the perfection of morality. He developed the perception of the foulness of his body, he abandoned attachment to sense pleasures, he left his home for the homeless life, and that is the perfection of renunciation. He was skilled in the discerning of the dhammas which are a support for the requisites of enlighhtenment and skilled in the abandoning of the dhammas opposed to those requisites. He was skilled in considering the specific nature of beneficial dhammas, discriminating them from dhammas that are not beneficial, and this is the perfection of paññå. The disenchantment with sense pleasures and the endeavour to endure suffering is the perfection of energy. Endurance and forbearance are the perfection of patience. Truthfulness in speech and in the practice of abstention from what is wrong is the perfection of truthfulness. The firm, unshakable practice of what is right is the perfection of determination. Lovingkindness and affection for all beings without being selective is the perfection of loving-kindness.” ---------- As regards the perfection of equanimity of the Bodhisatta, this has just been explained above. ------------------------------ To be continued. Metta, Han #77087 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 7:35 pm Subject: Tep's Photo buddhatrue Hi All, Tep's photo has just been uploaded to the member's file. (BTW, he no longer looks like he's been crying all night over DSG posts...;-)) Any other members who need help posting photos or cleaning up photos, please don't hesitate to contact me off-list: buddhatrue @ yahoo.com Metta, James #77088 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 8:06 pm Subject: Re: Tep's Photo indriyabala Hi James, - Thank you many times for the expert help. It is very kind of you to make the poor photo look a lot better. There is 'no Tep' in the photo or anywhere, anyway. :-) Tep ==== #77089 From: han tun Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 8:28 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Tep's Photo hantun1 Dear Tep and James, Tep, you look very good. James, you have done a nice job. metta and best wishes, Han #77090 From: "colette" Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 4:48 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Controversy? ksheri3 Hi Sarah, Only got five minutes on the computer, oops four minutes, so I'll just give my first impression of that "namas and rupas" sly remark down there: sooooooo you're tryin' to catch me playin' around in the dirt are ya? LOL I will get back to ya on this although my roomates are trying to get rid of me the easiest way they can by forcing me to walk about an hour to get any kind of food, etc. from the church. It's a terrible situation and I don't see any assistance coming from the Chicago community other than hatred and some chiding which you seem to be partaking of yourself. toodles, for now, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Colette, > > --- colette wrote: > > > I HAVE ALWAYS GOTTEN, RECEIVED, THE SENSE, FEELING, INTUITION, THAT > > THE MEMBERS OF THIS GROUP ARE HIGHLY SKIDDISH OF REALITY. > .... > S: Hmmm - you'd have to elaborate.... I LOVE the topic of REALITY! > > What is reality now, Colette? (Clue: remember those namas and rupas we > were discussing.....!!) <....> #77091 From: "R. K. Wijayaratne" Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 5:20 pm Subject: The Foremost * rwijayaratne Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammâ Sambuddhassa! <...> Taken from mettanet.org1 Translated from Pali by Sister Upalavanna COMMENTARY: The Lord Buddha points out his foremost disciples in the various areas. THE FOREMOST Anguttara Nikâya 1.14 - Etadaggavagga2 1. Pañhama Vagga. 188. Bhikkhus, out of my disciples Kondañña who knows realized first. 189. Sâriputta is foremost for great wisdom. 190. Mahâmoggallâna for supernormal powers. 191. Mahakassapa for observing austerities. 192. Anuruddha for the heavenly eye. 193. The son of Kaligodhaya for birth in high families. 194. Lakundaka Bhaddhiya for lacking in charm. 195. Pindola Bharadvaja for the lion's roar. 196. Punna Mantaniputta to give a dhamma talk. 197. Mahakaccana to explain in short. 2. Dutiya Vagga 198. Bhikkhus, out of my disciples Culapantaka is foremost for creating mental images. 199. Culapantaka for rolling back the mind. 200. Mahapantaka for rolling back perceptions. 201. Subhuti for dwellling in the forest. 202. Subhuti for receiving gifts. 203. Revata Khadiravaniya to gain the forest perception. 204. Kankharevata for attaining janas. 205 Sona Kolivisa for aroused effort. 206. Sona Kotikanna for polite speech. 207. Sivali for gains. 208. Vakkali for release through faith. 3. Tatiya Vagga. 209. Bhikkhus, out of my disciples, Râhula is foremost for desiring the training. 210. Ratthapala for going forth out of faith. 211. Kundadana for receiving the first morsels. 212. Vangisa for explaining the Teaching. 213. Upasena Vangantaputta for friendliness all round. 214. Dabba Mallaputta for the preparation of beds and seats. 215. Pilindavaccha for adoration by the gods. 216. Bahiya Daruciriya for realizing the Teaching instantly. 217. Kumarakassapa to make friendly verbal arrangements. 218. Mahakottita for analytical knowledge. 4. Catuttha Vagga 219. Bhikkhus, out of my disciples ânanda is the foremost for learnedness. 220. Ânanda for mindfulness. 221. Ânanda for correct behaviour. 222. Ânanda for courage. 223. Ânanda for attending on others. 224. Uruwela Kassapa for a large number of followers. 225. Kâludayi to reconcile clans. 226. Bakula for few ailments. 227. Sobhita for recollecting previous births. 228. Upali for retaining the discipline. 229. Nandaka for advising bhikkhunis. 230. Nanda for protecting the sense doors. 231. Mahakappina for advising the bhikkhus. 232. Sagata for entering the fire element. 233. Râdha for explaining the Teaching. 234. Mogharaja for wearing rough robes. 5. Pañcama Vagga 235. Bhikkhus, out of my bhikkhuni disciples Mahapajâpati is the first to realize arahantship. 236. Khemâ for high wisdom. 237. Uppalavannâ for psychic powers. 238. Patacarâ for keeping the discipline. 239. Dhammadinnâ for explaining the Teaching. 240. Nandâ for attaining jhana. 241. Sonâ for aroused effort. 242. Bakulâ for the heavenly eye. 243. Bhaddâ Kundalakesâ for realizing the Teaching instantly. 244. Baddha Kapilâni for recollecting previous births. 245. Baddha Kaccânâ for great wisdom. 246. Kisagotamã for wearing rough robes. 247. Singâlakamâtâ for release through faith. 6. Cattha Vagga. 248. Bhikkhus out of my lay disciples the first to take the three refuges are Tapassu and Balluka, the tradesmen. 249. Anâthapindika, that is the householder Sudatta is the foremost lay devotee. 250. Citta Macchikasandika the householder for explaining the Teaching. 251. Hatthaka Aalavaka to establish liberality, kind speech, leading an useful life and a state of equality among the others. 252. Mahanâma the Sakya is the foremost distinguished devotee. 253. Ugga the householder of Vesâli the most pleasant devotee. 254. Uggata the householder of Hatthigâma for attending on the Community. 255. Surambaññha for reconcillation. 256. Jãvaka Komârabhacca for pleasantness to all persons. 257. Nakulapita the householder the best confide. 7. Sattama Vagga. 258. Bhikkhus, out of my lay female disciples the first to take the three refuges is Sujâta the daughter of Seniya. 259. Visakhâ the mother of Migâra is the foremost female devotee. 260. Kujjuttarâ the most learned. 261. Samawathie for developing loving kindness. 262. Uttaranandamâtâ for jhanas. 263. Suppavâsa the daughter of the Koliyas the most pleasant devotee. 264. Suppiyâ the female lay devotee for attending on the sick. 265. Katiyâni for permanent pleasantness. 266. Nakulamâta, the householder's wife for undivided pleasantness. 267. Kâli Kulagharikâ, the female lay devotee for adhering to hearsay. Notes 1. More suttas from mettanet.org can be found here http://www.mettanet.org/tipitaka/index.html 2. This sutta can be found here http://www.mettanet.org/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara-Nikaya/Anguttara1/1-ek\ anipata/014-Etadaggapali-e.html (case-sensitive web address) <...> #77092 From: "tom" Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 7:06 pm Subject: Friends, you know what's wonderful? zorroelbueno Already seeing is taking place.We are already seeing as hard as we can.Ten thousand years in a cave meditating and you won's be seeing any more powerfully than you are right now. This is blowing the top of my narrow head away! Z #77093 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 9:07 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Tep's Photo sarahprocter... Dear 'no Tep', Very nice indeed. Thank you for sharing your pic! James is an expert - I'd have had no idea he'd assisted. Now, who's next? Metta, Sarah #77094 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 10:59 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Earliest Buddhism sarahprocter... Hi Alex & all, Thanks for raising some controversial topics with us:-) I've seen some of the comments which you quote on the Sutta Nipata before. The problem when historians and scholars analyse suttas without sufficient understanding of the Dhamma is that often the deeper meanings are lost. Let me just pick up on a few points near the beginning of the extract to try and give examples: --- Alex wrote: 1.> The > Khaggavisaanasutta (Rhinoceros Sutra), also in the Sutta > Nipaata, > similarly seems to reveal an earlier mode of Buddhist monasticism, > which emphasized individual wandering monastics, more in keeping with > the Indian sannyaasin tradition. .... S: It may have been addressed to wandering monastics, but as Thanissaro makes clear in his notes, the commentary by Maha Kaccana (inc. from the outset in the Pali Canon) makes it clear that 'home' refers to the khandhas and 'society' refers to sense impressions. http://uwf.edu/wmikulas/Webpage/Leaves/website/canon/khuddaka/suttanipata/index.\ html Indeed, all the suttas are about learning to live alone, without clinging to 'home' and 'society'. They are just as applicable to householders as to wandering monastics. There are plenty of other suttas which convey the same message and use other metaphors to do so. See: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/31798 .... 2.> Speaking generally, the A.t.thakavagga and the > Paaraayanavagga tend more > strongly to emphasize the negative sides of asceticism ....They also place considerable emphasis on the rejection of > all views, and are reluctant to put forward positions of their own > regarding basic metaphysical issues. This has caused some > commentators (Gomez 1976) to compare them to later Madhyamaka > philosophy, which in its Prasa"ngika form especially makes a method > of > rejecting others views rather than proposing its own. .... S: Firstly, it is the rejection of WRONG views that is made. I think it was you, Alex, who rightly pointed out that (unless otherwise stated or modified by 'sammaa'), di.t.thi in suttas usually refers to WRONG views. http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/b_f/ditthi.htm So the Parama.t.thaka and other suttas here need to be read and understood as referring to WRONG views that are not held by the wise. Secondly, clearly right views are indicated. In the Parama.t.thaka sutta (A.t.thakavagga,5, Saddhatissa transl.), for example, "The sage has abandoned the notion of self or ego and is free from clinging." He has developed RIGHT view. in the same chapter, (14, Tuva.taka Sutta), the Buddha is asked about "the state of peace, the state of solitude and quiet detachment." The Buddha replies that this is achieved "by cutting out the root obstacle, the delusion: he eradicates all thought of 'I am'." Through the development of satipatthana, all cravings are eradicated. Here's another good quote from the Paaraayanavagga (1, Ajita's Qus): 'Any river can be stopped with the dam of mindfulness' , said the Buddha, 'I call it the flood-stopper. And with wisdom you can close the flood-gates.' " As Thanissaro says, the Atthaka Vagga includes all the upadanas, the 4 kinds of clinging, especially clinging to sense objects and (wrong) views. In the Paaraayanavagga, 16 brahmin ascetics approach the Buddha with questions on his teaching. The first 15 immediately became arahants when their questions were answered. .... 3.> The Aṭṭhakavagga and the Pârâyanavagga also differ > in their > articulation of Buddhist meditation practices, leaning heavily on > what would come to be defined as samatha and showing very little > evidence of vipassanâ at all... .... S: Again, this is a misunderstanding of the deeper message, the Path as taught in the suttas here. To give the full sutta for the last quote as it's still open on my knee and Ajita's questions are very topical: Paaraayanavagga (1, Ajita's Qus, Saddhatissa transl.): "'What is it', said Ajita, 'that smothers the world? What makes the world so hard to see? What would you say pollutes the world, and what threatens it most?' "'It is ignorance which smothers', said the Master, 'and it is carelessness and greed which make the world invisible. The hunger of desire pollutes the world, and the great source of fear is the pain of suffering.' "'In each direction', said Ajita, 'the rivers of desire are running. How can we dam them and what will hold them back? What can we use to close the flood-gates?' "'Any river can be stopped with the dam of mindfulness (sati)' , said the Buddha, 'I call it the flood-stopper. And with wisdom(pa~n~naa) you can close the flood-gates.' "'Sir, said Ajita, 'where there is wisdom and mindfulness there is also the hybrid of mind and matter (S:naama ruupa) [the generation of individuality]. What brings it all to a halt?' "'This is the answer to your question. Ajita', said the Master. 'Individuality can be brought to a total end by the cessation of consciousness.' [S: The Pali, I think, from: http://mettanet.org/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/5Khuddaka-Nikaya/05Suttanipata/5-para\ yana-vagga-p.html "Yameta.m pa~n~naa apucchi Ajita ta.m vadaami te, Yattha naama ruupa asesa.m uparujjhaati Vi~n~naana nirodhena ettheta.m uparujjhati." S: To paraphrase, all namas and rupas are stopped through the ceasing of consciousness. Pa~n~naa is the answer to Ajita's question. Corrections welcome!] "'Sir', said Ajita, 'there are people here who have mastered all the teachings, and there are students and apprentices, and ordinary people too. Tell me how these people should live and work.' "'Let them be like a wanderer, a monk', said the Buddha. 'Mindful and skilful in everyway, they should free themselves from plesure-=hunger and make their minds [calm and] undisturbed.'" .... S: As I read it, this is a teaching on the development of vipassana, the direct understanding of namas and rupas, as expounded in these suttas from 'Earliest Buddhism'. Through understanding and being mindful of namas and rupas (taken for this being or individual), gradually the floods are dammed and stopped. We don't need to change our lifestyles. Whether we be bhikkhus, students or ordinary householders, we can learn to live alone 'like a wanderer, a monk' in the deepest sense, developing satipatthana, becoming less disturbed by our defilements. Ajita was one of the brahmin ascetics who became an arahant instantly on hearing these answers. Meanwhile, I'll look forward to reading your other discussions while we travel. Metta, Sarah ======= #77095 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 11:41 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Earliest Buddhism sarahprocter... Hi Alex & All, --- sarah abbott wrote: > 2.> Speaking generally, the A.t.thakavagga and the > > Paaraayanavagga tend more > > strongly to emphasize the negative sides of asceticism ....They also > place considerable emphasis on the rejection of > > all views, and are reluctant to put forward positions of their own > > regarding basic metaphysical issues. .... S: See also these few lines from , the Attada.n.da Sutta('Violent Conduct, A.t.thakavagga, no 15, Saddhatissa transl): "....I call this craving, the greed, a great flood, and the hankering I call attachment, hanging up. This bog of lust is difficult to cross. "But the man of wisdom stands on solid ground - he is like a brahmin, never moving from Truth, and when he has completely renounced then indeed is he calm. "He has wisdom, he has complete knowledge, he has understood the Way Things Are. He is completely independent. In his perfect wanderings from place to place, he has no envy for anyone. "Desire is a chain, shackled to the world, and it is a difficult one to break. But once that is done, there is no more grief and no more longing: the stream has been cut off and there are no more chains. "Let there be nothing behind you; leaving the future to one side. Do not clutch at what is left in the middle; then you will become a wanderer and calm. "When a man does not identify himself with mind and matter (nama and rupa) at all, when he does not grieve for what does not exist, then he cannot sustain any loss in this world. "When he does not think, 'This is mine' or 'That belongs to them', then, since he has no egoism, he cannot grieve with the thought of 'I do not have'..." ***** S: I believe that these lines contain all the key Buddha's teachings we find throughout the rest of the Tipitaka and ancient commentaries: - The 4 Noble Truths - Wisdom as forerunner - The understanding of paramattha dhammas, namas and rupas, through the development of vipassana - Wisdom of the Path bringing true calm (as opposed to temporary calm) - Present moment understanding - Giving up of sakkaya ditthi, personality view, as leading to the relinquishment of attachment, conceit and other views Sometime ago, Nina (post #57102) checked the commentary to this sutta and added a few remarks: Nina: >I looked up conceit in the Mahaaniddesa, a.t.tada.ndasutta (in Thai). The subject of the a.t.tada.ndasutta, embraced violence is given in short in the Sutta Nipata (Ch of Eights, vs. 935). The Mahaaniddesa of the Khuddaka Nikaaya contains many treasures, but it is not translated in English. It is not well known. On conceit, it is first explained that one compares oneself to someone else (as better, equal and less). Then it explains the objects of conceit: the eight worldly conditions (lokadhammas: praise, blame, etc.) On account of the five objects: one receives pleasant ones, or unpleasant ones. On account of the senses. On account of any object there may be clinging to the importance of self. There may be comparing or not necessarily comparing. It is then stated that it can be object of vipassanaa." .... S: So we see that all the suttas, all the teachings come down to a description of the various dhammas that make up our lives. Conceit, sense-attachments and wrong views are so very common. They can all be understood better when they arise. They can be the object of wisdom, even of the vipassana ~naanas when there has been sufficient wise reflection and development of pa~n~naa. Clearly, the comments given in the quotation at the top of the page miss the mark! Metta, Sarah ====== #77096 From: "Sukinder" Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 11:45 pm Subject: Response to DC Part 1. sukinderpal Dear DC, My response is in 4 posts. Part 1. --------------- > DC: Thanks for your lengthy post. Actually it was very good of you to have taken the trouble to write such a long post. Sukin: I'm well known for long posts and to be sure, they are conditioned mostly by akusala. ;-) Please don't feel obliged to respond to them all or even in part. --------------- > DC: Well, we started our discussion with the concept of daana. Here is a good reference on Daana: Its BPS publication No. 367/369, Edited by Bhikkhu Bodhi. You may be able to download it from their website or AccesstoInsight. That gives a lot of information about daana. Sukin: The article was much too long for me to read, but I'm sure I'll learn something from reacting with you. --------------- > Sukin: But I still can't see why this should make a difference to the > citta of the giver, having in fact done its job and fallen away. > > DC: This last sentence is abhidhammic analysis-Cittas arising and falling. Really, this kind of analysis, to my mind, is very difficult. Sukin: I have to admit that I too am having difficulty with this. I am thinking particularly about how the recipient of our actions influence the quality / strength off the kamma involved. Actually I thought about this when still new to Abhidhamma, but at the time decided that I may figure it out later on. But also it seemed to not be so important to find out the answer as it has nothing to do with the growth in kusala and the development of wisdom. Perhaps I should leave it as being the aspect of kamma considered to be imponderable? What do you think? --------------- DC: There will be millions of cittas arising and falling within one act of daana. Some of them may not even be kusala cittas. For example, you may get annoyed because somebody is not listening or something. Sukin: This I have absolutely no problem with. I think in fact that it is very important to know this for else there is danger of being influenced by outward actions with little or no attention paid to the citta. --------------- DC: So I would stick to the explanations given in the sutta pitaka. Sukin: What do you mean? Are you saying that I should be paying attention to the "conventional act" and leave it at that? If so, how does one avoid relying on "belief", something you discourage in another context? ---------------- DC: I'll point out another very interesting point with respect to dhammadaana: you may be honestly believing that what you are preaching is dhamma. But what you may be preaching is not dhamma but adhamma. What then? Sukin: I guess this must be with 99% of the cases. Many would consider my own utterances adhamma and I can't prove to myself that it isn't. ;-) That adhamma is being propagated as Dhamma, is I believe heavy akusala kammapattha, though there may be some kusala, for example metta, in the mix. In any case there is no way we can determine nor control these things, we will think that we are doing our best, and that's it. So I guess it is something we need not worry about…. ----------------- > DC: You say "My knowledge of Dhamma is very limited". I have my strong doubts. What the Buddha said during his 45 year ministry can be summarised thus: > sabba paapassa akarana.m > kusalassa upasampadaa > sacitta priyodapana.m > Eta.m Buddhaanasaasana.m > > I am sure you don't need a translation of that. Sukin: You are wrong about my Pali. ;-) I am only guessing what the above is, based on vague recognition of just three words and the number of lines. Is it the famous "Avoid evil. Do good. Purify the mind. This is the Buddha's Teaching"? You are saying that this is simple to understand? Are you taking into consideration your whole impression of the Buddhadhamma, or are you thinking that this applies regardless of whether someone understands say, conditionality, satipatthana and anatta? How much `evil' and `good' do we know? How much of the Path do we understanding that in fact are able to `purify the mind'? And isn't it that when this is not truly understood, we are likely to end up confusing good and evil? Rather, oversimplification is the norm and we think that we can just `do it'! I think my knowledge and understanding of the Dhamma is indeed very low! ------------------ > DC: Yes the quality of a gift is judged by three things: the purity of the giver, the purity of the gift and the purity of the recipient. All these are explained in great detail in the reference I gave above. Sukin: Could you please point me exactly to the relevant part of the essay? End of Part 1. Metta, Sukin #77097 From: "Sukinder" Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 11:46 pm Subject: Response to DC Part 2. sukinderpal Dear DC, Part 2. ------------------ > D: With regard to the word "kusala kamma", what exactly is your definition (of kusala kamma)? We understand it differently. We think kusala is wholesome and akusala is unwholesome. For example, abstention from killing is wholesome. Abstention implies that there is no act of killing. For details see sammaadi.t.thi sutta MN 9. Sukin: Any kusala act through body, speech or mind is kusala kamma, but here I was thinking particularly about `preaching Dhamma'. Yes, kusala is wholesome and akusala is unwholesome. --------------------- > >Sukin: > I see this as being very true. > So now if I decide to instead of some material good, give some > particular person the Dhamma in the form of a talk, does this in itself > not qualify as dhamma dana? Should I wait to see if indeed the person > has understood anything of what I said? > > DC: Of course it is dhamma-dana and it is one of the 10 meritorius deeds. But the level of merit that you accrue is dependent on his acceptance or rejection. You definitely need not wait to see. The results follow according to the law of causality. Sukin: And now I'm back to square one. Because originally I was questioning your assertion to Alex about the requirement that the recipient "understands" the Dhamma, but now you seem to not be insisting on this….? --------------------- > >: Sukin: I am not sure now. But surely Dana *is* a form of kusala isn't it? > > DC: This is a difficult question and requires a lengthy reply. Do you agree that there is a difference between the two two words wholesome (kusala) and merit (pu~n~na). Dana is a meritorius deed. But if you practice it with the intention of relinquishing your greed--that is for achieving nibbana then it is kusala. But if you practice it with the hope of beneficial results now or future births, then it is only a meritorius deeds. Just one more hint: daana is not a part of the Noble Eightfold Path. Sukin: You are saying here that kusala is that which leads to Nibbana, in which case dana, metta, karuna and so on are not kusala. Perhaps you use a different set of terms, but I consider kusala any citta with the roots, alobha, adosa and amoha. The fist two is common to all kusala cittas. Amoha can be either of the kind which is the development of samatha or the kind which is the development of vipassana. As I understand it, only this last leads to Nibbana. -------------------- > DC: I have no "Dhamma Theory" of my own. If you mean by the word "Dhamma", the teaching of the Buddha it is not a "theory"? It is the truth which he has realised. Theory is mere speculation. I don't reject the Abhidhamma theory of moments. As you correctly put, it is a theory. Sukin: Yes Dhamma is not a theory and this includes the Abhidhamma. However like you, some people view the Abhidhamma as such. Now it may be that this perception does not imply that you have your own theory in opposition. But given that you see it as mere theory while I see it as reflecting reality, you will have some theory behind why you judge Abhidhamma as theory don't you? ;-) Anyway, I am not saying that I know anything beyond intellectual understanding. But one thing for sure, the Abhidhamma has helped me to reject all theories about reality, and instead come to consider the present moment, including here, to distinguish mere parroting, suttamaya panna, cintamaya panna and bhavanamaya panna. End of Part 2. Metta, Sukin #77098 From: "Sukinder" Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 11:47 pm Subject: Response to DC Part 3. sukinderpal Dear DC, Part 3. -------------------- DC: I really don't need it to understand the teaching of the Buddha. So I ignore it. You cannot argue against theories. I think I mentioned that earlier. To clarify the meaning, here is an example. How do you verify that there there are 16 mind moments in one rupa-kalaapa arising and ceasing? So I'll leave it alone. Sukin: But since I see it as being such a great help, I question your perception if not understanding. Is it that your introduction to the Abhidhamma was not right? Do you see any difference in approach to it as expressed here compared to other places? On the other hand, the fault might be in your own attitude towards what all is in the Abhidhamma texts. For example this thing about the life span of a rupa being 17 times that of the citta, why do you think this is something to *prove right or wrong*? If another figure was given, would you not likely to question that? Or are you saying that you actually *know* this to not in fact be the case?! If not, wouldn't it be more sensible to be mindful of any resistance that arises? And in doing this, you may come to then agree with the main thrust of Abhidhamma, and that is, the study of present moment realities. I believe this to be the beginning and the end of Abhidhamma / Dhamma. In rejecting the Abhidhamma "theories" are you by any chance preferring the world of conventional realities and ideas of past and future that this invariably brings……? -------------------- > DC: Regarding "my Abhidhamma" : I have no abhidhamma. I am only a disciple of the Buddha. So I follow his Dhamma-vinaya. All the dhamma I need are in the: Four Noble Truths, Pa.ticca Samuppada and Anattalakkhana sutta. For Vinaya I use Sigalovada, Vyagghapajjha, Dhammika and similar suttas. Sukin: Please don't take this personally; I am not even quite sure about what exactly your position on this is. But I've seen many people express more or less the same attitude as you have here. Consider this as an opportunity I take to express myself. That we don't have any evidence about the origination of the Abhidhamma, I think the same can be said with regard to the Suttas and Vinaya. Arguments based on stories, history or whatever, is purely out of personal bias. But as Sarah was discussing with you, any expression of the Truth which agrees with the Dhamma, can be said to be Buddha vacana, since it can only be traced back to the Buddha himself. Why for example, argue about the commentaries being not the Buddha's words, indeed we should be very grateful to them for helping explain otherwise hard to understand texts. But of course we don't in fact agree with their interpretation, and since we don't have a sound argument to support our own interpretation, we appeal to history and other stories. The Abhidhamma has by tradition been considered one of the Three Baskets. The same Theras who preserved the Suttas and Vinaya, also preserved the Abhidhamma with the same veneration and respect. These same Theras also held the commentaries in high regard. Have you ever considered that in rejecting this one basket of the Teachings, that you may in fact be rejecting one expression of the Buddha's wisdom and compassion? And if so, is this not grave kamma? Why reject the Abhidhamma based on preference for a story line about history / historians / text comparison / scholars etc.? Why not consider the possibility of your own limitations in understanding? Could it be arrogance speaking? Each time I hear such things as "a handful of Suttas and / or Vinaya are all I need to understand the Dhamma", not to mention those who go to the extent putting away the Texts in preference to "practice", it smells of arrogance to me. How can a dhamma student say no to any word by the Buddha? An Ariyan won't do such a thing even though he has already arrived at the Truth!! --------------------- > DC: In the above passage I wish to refer to "The Dhamma is however much deeper..." > Well you think so? But I think differently. It all depends on what you take dhamma to mean. To me it only means to live righteously-- dhammacaarii. For a layman it is the simplest thing in the world: Just observe the five precepts. Sukin: I think the Buddha went through all the trouble that he did to teach the Dhamma geared towards total eradication of the kilesas, nothing less than this. That we gain only an intellectual understanding is good in that we are at least looking in the right direction, but we also know that this is *not* enough. That someone thinks it is enough just to live righteously etc. is actually not really appreciating the Dhamma and is likely motivated by `self view'. That the kilesas ever increases is due to the continuing ignorance of the nature of experience. Satipatthana is the unique Teaching of the Buddha involving increased understanding of nama and rupa leading to vipassana and enlightenment. The Dhamma is *deep* in relation to the fact of there being so much avijja and almost no vijja. End of Part 3. Metta, Sukin #77099 From: "Sukinder" Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 11:48 pm Subject: Response to DC Part 4. sukinderpal Dear DC, Part 4. -------------------- DC: I am sure people like sopaka, ambapali, angulimaala, etc. understood the dhamma and attained arahanthood. Do you know the story of Culapanthaka? Sukin: Yes I know the story of Culapanthaka. And lets not judge the book by the cover. I have come to be convinced that panna has absolutely *nothing* to do with what we consider `intelligence'. Also it has nothing to do with what we perceive generally as being moral, calm and concentrated. And this is why a murderer, a drunk and a so called, dullard could all become enlightened. We have all accumulated all that we have over many aeons. Panna is never lost and arises by natural decisive support condition to know any dhamma. Let's not be fooled by conventional "persons" and "situations" and let's not forget about past lives. The only real obstacle to any chance of panna arising and be developed is "wrong view". Wrong view is convinced about its perception of `reality' and when accumulated enough, will strongly resist the Dhamma. Culapanthaka it seems to me, had lots of moha, but no sign of wrong view. He did not understand the Dhamma, but neither did he resist it. This is why when the Buddha finally gave him the piece of white cloth to rub, the object was a NDS condition for the accumulated understanding to arise. --------------------- > DC: What is your definition of reality? What do you mean by misunderstanding. As far as I am conerned, the only reality that I know is what I can perceive through my senses. If there is another one, bad luck for me. I have no way of knowing it. And I don't know anybody who has seen another reality. Sukin: By realities I mean as you do, that which are experienced through the sense doors and mind door. By misunderstanding, I mean instances of wrong view. ---------------------- > >Sukin: I don't understand your reference to the Kalaama Sutta…. > > DC: It tells how to follow a moral life without faith or belief. If you have faith or belief, then you are a theist and not a follower of the Buddha. In this sutta buddha rejects the vaada of all the samana- brahamanas. Sukin: Yes, and when you know something through experience to be true, then you accept it as so. It is hard to draw a line though isn't it? Sometimes we have to go by what "makes sense". What options do we have? There is no direct experience yet, but we have to keep moving ahead. Does not saddha have a role to play here? Of course this is not blind faith and we need to be able to make the distinction. Besides should we not be equally careful about "doubt" coming in? What do you think? BTW, I don't think faith even that of an average Buddhist can be compared to a theist's. In the one, the belief includes kamma and rebirth, but in the other its salvation through a `higher power'. Big difference I think. ------------------ > >Sukin: "The Abhidhamma is however of a different caliber altogether, this could only > have come directly from the Buddha himself, which even the > commentators, seem to have consulted. The legends associated I > therefore do not doubt about. ;-)" > > DC: I only wish to focus again that the above statement is a pure belief. And it doesn't make sense to discuss that. Sukin: Perhaps it is, but so is any claim about the Suttas and Vinaya being what they are. In the end, each person is convinced through experience, the value of the Teachings. This is why I consider arguments about history to be missing the point. ----------------- > DC: Hope whatever I have said above would assist you in someway. Sukin: It has been useful. Thank you. End of Part 4 Metta, Sukin #77100 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 1:15 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Some Findings About Self and Self Views kenhowardau Hi Howard, ---------- KH: > > Howard, I was alluding to our different understandings of 'practice.'You believe practice needs to be preceded by an intention [to practise]. I don't. In fact, I believe such an intention would indicate that the conditions for practice were not yet in place. Howard: > Yes, we certainly differ on that, Ken. IMO, one can no more practice without intention than consider the Dhamma or write posts without intention. --------- I'll admit that considering and writing do seem to occur following an intention to do those things. No always, but often. But how could anyone intend to practise satipatthana? How could anyone intend to be aware of a paramattha dhamma? Remember, conditioned dhammas come and go in a trillionth of a second. They cannot possibly be detected in any conventional way. No reasonable person (who understood the meaning of satipatthana) would even think of trying. As I was saying, I believe any intention to practise satipatthana indicates ignorance of the meaning of satipatthana. Searching for a example in modern folklore I can only think of the boy who asked a shopkeeper for elbow grease. His mother had seen him lethargically scrubbing the floor and said, "Use some elbow grease!" But he didn't understand what she meant. Isn't it the same when the Dhamma tells us to practise satipatthana? If we don't understand what we are being told, any intention to comply must be wrong. And wrong intention does not result in right action. Extending the metaphor, I picture the boy rejecting helpful advice and stubbornly insisting that his mother meant he was to use some new kind of cleaning product. 'If there was no such product she would not have told me to use it! She does not tell lies!' In time, he would convince other gullible people and various new products would come onto the market, each promising cleaner brighter floors "With Zen elbow grease!" "With Goenka elbow grease!" etc. ------------------------ KH: > > Sorry if I have put that undiplomatically. :-) > > Howard: > You haven't - you just put it mistakenly! ;-)) Our difference on this issue is not so much the role of intention in practice, but, I believe, what we mean by "practice". What you call "practice" doesn't exist for one not yet awakened, and that is an odd usage from my perspective. So, in a way, we are speaking different languages, and I'm afraid the translation process is too difficult to attempt to go through. ------------------------ I would hate to introduce my own terminology. Dhamma study is difficult enough as it is. When, the texts speak of "practice in accordance with the Dhamma" I believe they are referring to mundane insight - satipatthana, patipatti. Corrections welcome. Ken H #77101 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 1:25 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Some Findings About Self and Self Views rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: Brilliant analogy Ken. > ____ > As I was saying, I believe any intention to practise satipatthana > indicates ignorance of the meaning of satipatthana. > > Searching for a example in modern folklore I can only think of the > boy who asked a shopkeeper for elbow grease. His mother had seen > him lethargically scrubbing the floor and said, "Use some elbow > grease!" But he didn't understand what she meant. > > Isn't it the same when the Dhamma tells us to practise satipatthana? > If we don't understand what we are being told, any intention to > comply must be wrong. And wrong intention does not result in right > action. > > Extending the metaphor, I picture the boy rejecting helpful advice > and stubbornly insisting that his mother meant he was to use some > new kind of cleaning product. 'If there was no such product she would > not have told me to use it! #77102 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 1:04 am Subject: The Minor Hells are also Real! bhikkhu0 Friends: Having been in the Great Hells one goes to the Minor Hells! There are 4 kinds of Minor Hells around each great Hell: 1: The Cesspool of Excrement & Leech Hell (MilhakÅ«pa) 2: The Red Hot Embers Hell (Kukkula) 3: The Razor & Spike Tree Hell (Asipattavana) 4: The Acid River Hell (NadÄ«) 1: The Cesspool of Excrement & Leech Hell (MilhakÅ«pa) Those coming out of a great Niraya fall into the excrement cesspit, where thousands of leeches with rasping needle-mouths pierce through the skin, flesh, bone and suck out their bone-marrow... 2: The Red Hot Embers Hell (Kukkula) Coming out of the Excrement & Leech Hell one fall into the Red Hot Embers Hell, where beings roast crispy dry until they crack like mustard seeds... 3: The Razor & Spike Tree Hell (Asipattavana) From the embers, beings see shining green trees with many leaves and they run towards them seeking safety. There giant crows, vultures, dogs, owls boars, terrifying with beaks and teeth of metal, hunt them down and eat their flesh. Yet they do not die from that. The flesh all grows out again, the victims rise up, and are hunted down and devoured again and again... When the leaves of the trees are stirred by the wind, then they fall and like big razor blades cut of nose, ears, arms, & legs of the crying victims. When they try to escape by climbing up the trees they are pierced with burning thorns 1 foot long... 4: The Acid River Hell (NadÄ«) From the forest they plunge into a river of acid. There the caustic fluid takes off their skin and bites into the flesh, pungent, sharp & sour hot... Those who assail others in battle to destroy others, are later reborn with swords for nails, made of iron, ablaze and sharp. Then they cut each other to pieces and all suffers a lot... The warders of hell make the adulterer climb that simbali tree of metal, flaming, sharp-pointed and with thorns sixteen finger-lengths long. There metal-toothed, huge bodied, blazing fearsome females, embraces him & devour his flesh as he is one who stole another's wife... Torn and lacerated in the Asipattavana forest, men who are traitors wail while giant dogs, vultures, owls, and crows devour them... Those steal others properties repeatedly have to swallow melted iron balls and drink molten copper. This pass through and comes hizzing out below! Passionate hunters are hunted down & devoured by dogs with fearsome iron teeth violently ripping them apart, though they cry & whine like pigs... Fishermen who routinely kill beings born in water, such as fish, go to the terrible acid river Vetarani, whose running fluid is like blazing copper... Whoever, was full of stubborn ignorance, or greedy for bribes, weeping, is struck by red-hot hammers like mechanical mountains crush those who in this world have caused crushing to other beings in various ways... Those breakers of the Dhamma-bridges & those who preached the wrong false Way weep, as they are forced to walk a path of sharp razor blades... Men who crush lice between their nails are themselves crushed again and again between rams as mighty as mountains... Those who crush any insect are crushed again and again by iron pestles... Men who are cruel, exceedingly hateful, always intent on killing, & happy by the suffering of others, are reborn as barking mad rakkhasa demons. The seeds of absolutely all this suffering are wrongdoing by way of body, speech, or mind. One should thus eagerly avoid all even minute wrongdoing! These are minor Hells explained by the Teacher of the 3 worlds! Source (edited extract): PañcagatidÄ«panÄ« by Ashvaghosa & Saddhammaghosa: 11-12th century AC. Tr. by Ann A. Hazlewood. Journal of the PÄ?li Text Society. Vol. XI 1987: http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=132714 For more on the 136 Hells (Niraya , Naraka): http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/DPPN/n/niraya.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/IV/Ways_to_the_Barbeque.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Inevitable_Consequences.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/Canon/Sutta/KN/Dhammapada.htm#Chapter XXII Hell - Niraya The Buddha on the Hells: MN 130 The Divine Messengers. DevadÅ«ta Sutta! http://www.mettanet.org/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima3/130-de\ vaduta-e.html Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka * <...> #77103 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 1:37 am Subject: Re: Friends, you know what's wonderful? rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "tom" wrote: > > Already seeing is taking place.We are already seeing as hard as we > can.Ten thousand years in a cave meditating and you won's be seeing any > more powerfully than you are right now. This is blowing the top of my > narrow head away! Z > True! #77104 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 3:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Citta sarahprocter... Dear Scott (& Tep), You're having a useful discussion on citta. (Your ref. to Dsg.pp 84-85 should be to the Atth., btw, i.e the Dsg-A). Now, reflections only..... --- Scott Duncan wrote: > T: "2. Citta is accumulated by kamma and the corruptions. (T: what > corruptions are meant here?)" > > Dhs.: "...And the resultant is also termed 'consciousness' because it > is accumulated (cito) by kamma and the corruptions." > > Scott: The Pali is: > > "Vipaaka.m kammakilesehi citanti citta.m." ... Sarah: I wonder if we can we modify the translation to say that vipaka is consciousness (citta) because it results from the accumulated kamma (and kilesa). I'm not sure we can refer to accumulated vipaka:-/?? ..... >> I'm not sure but we seem to be dealing with vipaaka-citta ('the > resultant') in this case. To me this refers to the way in which citta > now arises due to kamma condition, among others. Each moment of > consciousness arises due to conditions and kamma-condition is one of > these. ..... Sarah: Yes, this is how I see it. .... > PTS PED: > > 'Cita' ("Cita [pp. of cinaati] heaped; lined or faced with) as shown, > is related to "Cinaati...to heap up, to collect, to accumulate...Pass. > ciiyati...Caus. cinaapeti to construct, to build...Note cinaati at J > ii.302 (to weave) is to be corr. to vinaati." ("Vinaati [vi, by -- > form of vaa to weave: see vaayati] to weave"). > > Scott: This is for 'accumulates'. I think it refers to kamma-paccaya > and vipaaka-paccaya. > Here I'd appreciate correction. .... Sarah: I would say it refers to kamma (and kilesa) above, to the vitikkama kilesa (coarse defilements through body, speech and mind) as opposed to pariyutthana kilesa (medium defilements) or anusaya (latent tendencies, subtle defilements). The pariyutthana kilesa, don't have the same intensity to lead to akusala kamma-patha. .... >There is often > mention of 'accumulations' ("Anusaya...Bent, bias, proclivity, the > persistence of a dormant or latent disposition, predisposition, > tendency"). I think the sense of 'accumulate' in Dhs. is meant > differently, although may be related to the sense of 'anusaya', > perhaps as a description of how things carry over as latencies or > potentials and arise with each citta. ..... Sarah: Because of the anusaya (latent tendencies), kilesa arise, manifest and accumulate all the time. .... > 'Corruptions' I think refer to lobha, dosa, moha, maana, di.t.thi, > vicikiccaa, thiina, uddhacca, ahirika, and anottappa - the kilesas. > So, this seems to refer to the link between kamma, and in particular > kamma arising out of the kilesas, and vipaaka. ... Sarah: I think it's referring to the kilesas at the degree of kamma-patha which bring about results. .... > As always, correct/clarify these above speculations of mine as needed. ... Sarah: Just reflections as I write this end as I'm not anyone else responded. Btw, on another small point I think you referred to, when we read about the variegated (citra), such as 'consciousness with lust....hate....delusion' etc, I take the texts to be referring to the variegated nature of cittas themselves. Of course they are conditioned by the accompanying cetasikas, but still, the cittas themselves have different characteristics. Seeing is never hearing, for example. Metta, Sarah ====== #77105 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 4:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Views, Ontology, Philosophy of Buddha as it appears to me. sarahprocter... Hi Alex, (& Howard) You wrote a long post to me with lots of good detail and discussion of sabhava and so on. --- Alex wrote: Talking about visible object as an example, I wrote: > > S: It has a sabhava which is different from any other dhamma. This > is why we read about khandhas too, because each dhamma has a > particular sabhava, a particular characteristic, yet all rupas have > the rupa characteristic in common, they are rupa khandha. .... S: You included several suttas to rightly indicate that all dhammas are anatta. In the context of my comments, sabhava was however referring to tthe characteristics of dhammas, not any attribute of atta. Howard wrote a helpful reply (#76819) which I appreciated a lot, with more detail and an interesting quote by Dr Law. You can read much, much more on sabhava in 'useful posts' under 'sabhava'. You'll see that every question and objection to its use have been responded to in great detail, including the different use in the Psm. passages you quoted. All the commentary notes can be found there:-) ... ************* > In DN#15 it says that Nama-Rupa is dependant on Vinnana and Vinnana > is dependent on Nama-Rupa. How can Vinnana have its own self nature? > How can Nama-rupa have its own self nature? .... S: With no consciousness at birth, there'd be no mental factors such as feeling and no rupas conditioned by such consciousness. Another example, seeing consciousness now is dependent on visible object (a rupa) and the mental factors which accompany the seeing consciousness, such as contact. All these different namas and rupas have characteristics, but all are anatta, conditioned dhammas. .... > Even though Eye and lets say smell consiousness appear different, > they appear in the MIND, dependent ON the mind, dependent on > conditions. ... S: What do you mean by MIND here? Do you mean citta? If so, how can the rupa, eye-base appear in the citta? What does it mean to say smell consciousness (citta) appears in the MIND? .... >It is mind that sorts out the sense data, without the > mind 5 senses would not function. ... S: Here you mean through the mind-door as a mind-door process as opposed to through the sense-door. OK, above, I read you to be saying that eye-base and smell consciousness can only be known in the mind-door process which is dependent on heart-base, rather than eye-base. Yes, all conditioned dhammas depend on conditions. I think your points here are on different issues. Several points being raised. The reality is that sense door processes are always followed by mind-door processes. Seeing consciousness, however, is a result of kamma, conditioned by visible object, eye-base and contact, rather than by the 'mind which sorts out the sense data'. ... > Nama-Rupa-Vinnana are interdependant and empty (or better to say > Relative and interconnected). ... I'd say interdependent and anatta. .... > What is the use in making fixed and static doctrine about the > ultimates? No wonder different people are making different full blown > speculations on ontology. .... S: The Buddha taught us about dhammas. Call them ultimates, namas and rupas or anything else. He helped us to understand what is real right now, what is dukkha right now, so that and end to dukkha could be found. People will always make 'full blown speculations on ontology', whatever that means:-) ... > "Sabbe Dhamma anatta" ... S: You got it! ... > Again, please forgive for long quotations and post. ... S: No need to apologise. I was glad to read all the detail you included. As you'll have gathered, I'm rather busy before a trip, so just brief notes to a couple of your other posts here: In #76762, you asked about Maha Boowa's (and some famous Thai Ajahns) comments on 'Citta, the heart, etc. etc. You also asked whether it's possible that 'his description of the 'Citta' is unestablished consciousness (vi~n~nanam anidassanam) which is part of the Buddha's teaching.' I'd like to give you some homework and when I return you can tell me if there are still lurking questions on this. I just referred you to "Useful Posts" in the files section. Scroll down to: 1. Sabhava 2. Haddaya vatthu (or it may be under 'Heart') 3. Vinnana - anidassanam 4. Udana -nibbana Anything else which takes your fancy on route! I see you have a real interest in checking out all these nitty-gritty issues and will be very glad to read your further comments and reflections. ***** In #76752, you were exploring 'sketches of roadmaps to awakening in the Suttas'. You finished with a quote from 'The Buddhist path to awakening p345. "According to Abhidhamma theory, in practice, when the mind is stilled in Jhana there is always some element of pa~n~na involved...." A Big Understatement! Pa~n~na is required for any bhavana (samatha or vipassana) from the very, very beginning. So let's consider more about the panna required for the beginning of samatha or satipatthana. Of course, they are not the same, but they are both a lot more than an element. Let's forget Jhana until this is clear! As for the discussion you're having on the bodhisatta already being a sakadagami, that's a new one to me! If this were so, he'd be a savaka of Buddha Kassapa or whichever one it was when he gained such insights. He wouldn't be a an all-enlightened Buddha who had attained to sammaa-sambodhi. Also, we read a lot about his various previous lives. I think this would have been mentioned, don't you? Keep bringing up controversial topics and discussing Dhamma, Alex! When you seriously get into the Abhidhamma, you'll love it! Look forward to more discussions on my return. Meanwhile I'll read any further responses you write. Metta, Sarah ======= #77106 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 4:52 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (68) nichiconn Dear Friends, Caapaatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa, part 4: txt: Maagaviko "amhaakampi etadeva ruccatii"ti uttarasaa.taka.m datvaa attano sahaayakassa gehe katipaaha.m vasaapetvaa taadise divase ghara.m aanetvaa dhiitara.m adaasi. Atha kaale gacchante tesa.m sa.mvaasamanvaaya putto nibbatti, subhaddotissa naama.m aka.msu. Caapaa tassa rodanakaale "upakassa putta, aajiivakassa putta, ma.msahaarakassa putta, maa rodi maa rodii"ti-aadinaa puttatosanagiitena upaka.m uppa.n.desi. So "maa tva.m caape ma.m 'anaatho'ti ma~n~ni, atthi me sahaayo anantajino naama, tassaaha.m santika.m gamissaamii"ti aaha. Caapaa "evamaya.m a.t.tiiyatii"ti ~natvaa punappuna.m tathaa kathesiyeva. So ekadivasa.m taaya tathaa vutto kujjhitvaa gantumaaraddho. Taaya ta.m ta.m vatvaa anuniiyamaanopi sa~n~natti.m anaagacchanto pacchimadisaabhimukho pakkaami. RD: The trapper consented, and, giving him a coat, brought him to his own home, and gave him his daughter. In due time she had a son, whom they called Subhadda. *356 Caapaa, when the baby cried, sang to him: 'Upaka's boy, ascetic's boy, game-dealer's boy, don't cry, don't cry!' mocking her husband. And he said at length: 'Do not thou, Caapaa, fancy I have none to protect me. *357 I have a friend, even a conqueror eternal, and to him I will go.' She saw that he was vexed, and teased him again and again in the same way, till one day, in anger, he got ready to go. She said much, but vainly, to prevent him, and he set out westward. *356 Fortunatus. *357 His humility was due, apart from his natural disposition, to his having no status among a group of independent huntsmen. PRUITT: The hunter said, "That would suit us," and gave him an outer garment. He had him stay at a friend's house for few days and on a certain day brought him to his house and gave him his daughter. Some time went by and as a result of their living together a son was born. They named him Subhadda. When he cried, Caapaa mocked Upaka with a lullaby for her son that began, "O son of Upaka, son of the Aajiivaka, son of the meat carrier, don't cry, don't cry." [Upaka] said, "Do not think that I am not without a protector, Caapaa. I have a friend who is the Conqueror of the Unending. I will go to him." So Caapa, knowing "This one is vexed," did the same thing again and again. One day when she spoke to him this way, he was angry and started to go. Although she induced him, saying this and taht, [trying] to pacify him, he did not come back, but went away towards the west. txt: Bhagavaa ca tena samayena saavatthiya.m jetavane viharanto bhikkhuuna.m aacikkhi- "yo, bhikkhave, ajja 'kuhi.m anantajino'ti idhaagantvaa pucchati, ta.m mama santika.m pesethaa"ti. Upakopi "kuhi.m anantajino vasatii"ti tattha tattha pucchanto anupubbena saavatthi.m gantvaa vihaara.m pavisitvaa vihaaramajjhe .thatvaa "kuhi.m anantajino"ti pucchi. Ta.m bhikkhuu bhagavato santika.m nayi.msu. So bhagavanta.m disvaa "jaanaatha ma.m bhagavaa"ti aaha. "Aama, jaanaami, kuhi.m pana tva.m ettaka.m kaala.m vasii"ti? "Va"ngahaarajanapade, bhante"ti. "Upaka, idaani mahallako jaato pabbajitu.m sakkhissasii"ti? "Pabbajissaami, bhante"ti. Satthaa a~n~natara.m bhikkhu.m aa.naapesi- "ehi tva.m, bhikkhu, ima.m pabbaajehii"ti. So ta.m pabbaajesi. RD: And the Exalted One was then at Saavatthii in the Jeta Grove, and announced this to the brethren: 'He who to-day shall come asking, "Where is the Conqueror eternal?" send him to me.' And Upaka arrived, and, standing in the midst of the Vihaara, asked: 'Where is the Conqueror eternal?' So they brought him, and when he saw the Exalted One, he said: 'Dost know me, Exalted One?' 'Yea, I know. But thou, where hast thou spent the time?' 'In the Vankahaara country, lord.' 'Upaka, thou art now an old man; canst thou bear the religious life?' 'I will enter thereon, lord.' The Master bade a certain Bhikkhu, 'Come, do thou, Bhikkhu, ordain him.' PRUITT: At that time the Blessed One was residing in the Jeta Grove in Saavatthi, and he said to the bhikkhus, "Bhikkhus, send whoever comes here today and asks, 'Where is the Conqueror of the Unending?' to me." Then Upaka, asking here and there, "Where is the Conqueror of the Unending residing?", came to Saavatthi in due course. He entered the monastery, and standing in the middle of the monastery, he asked, "Where is the Conqueror of the Unending?" The bhikkhus led him to the Blessed One. When he saw the Blessed One, he said, "Do you know me, Blessed One?" "Yes, I know you," [the Buddha said.] "But where have you been living for such a long time?" "In the district of Va"ngahaara, venerable sir." "Upaka, you have become old now. Will you be able to go forth?" "I will go forth, venerable sir." The Teacher gave orders to a certain bhikkhu, saying, "Come bhikkhu, you shall make this one go forth." And he made him go forth. === to be continued, connie #77107 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 4:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Corner (15) sarahprocter... Hi Tep, Another surprise post coming: --- Tep Sastri wrote: > From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia > > Madhyamaka (Also known as Œunyavada) is a Buddhist Mahayaana > tradition popularized by Naagaarjuna and Aœvaghosa. The school of > thought and its subsidiaries are called "Madhyamaka"; those who > follow it are called "Maadhyamikas." > > According to the Maadhyamikas, all phenomena are empty of "self > nature" or "essence" (Sanskrit: Svabhaava), meaning that they have no > intrinsic, independent reality apart from the causes and conditions > from which they arise. .... S: In other words, only concepts, no realities, so only an understanding of concepts is ever developed. .... > > Madhyamaka is the rejection of two extreme philosophies, and > therefore represents the "middle way" between eternalism (the view > that something is eternal and unchanging) and nihilism (the assertion > that all things are intrinsically already destroyed or rendered > nonexistent. This is nihilism in the sense of Indian philosophy, and > may differ somewhat from Western philosophical nihilism). .... S: If there is no understanding of realities with intrinsic characteristics, there is no 'middle way'. .... > The definition above suggests that the DSG Abhidhammikas are > Maadhyamikas. But isn't that contradicting to Theravada? .... S: Yes, the views of the Madhymaaka as briefly summarised here are not Theravada inc. Abhidhamma. If that's how they sound to you, we have a lot more work to do:-). I hope others will help pursue any further discussions with you and others on these controversial issues until I return. Ken H would love this one on the 'middle way' for a start - he'd be able to stick to his own style! Metta, Sarah ======== #77108 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 5:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Asoka, Ch 6, no 6. sarahprocter... Hi Sukin & Dieter, --- Sukinder wrote: > S: I think being subtle is secondary to the oft mentioned idea of "no > control", "no doings", hence "no trying", and apparently this is even > more subtle. ;-) I think you will agree to the more obvious statement > expressed by Nina in the same post about the mistake of "trying to be a > better / good person etc.". The same principle applies here, the root > being "self view". .... S: This was just the thought I had too when reading the discussion. I thought your entire message ($76973) was 'spot-on' and well-worth re-reading. I also thought you stressed many good points in #76662. I always like your comments on science and Abhidhamma. Nicely presented. On the other hand, I sympathised and liked many of Dieter's reflections on paying respect. Dieter, you made some very compassionate comments in passing about knowing we all have conceit, we try to find ways to explain or correct wrong Dhamma in a way that isn't so direct as to cause loss of face if we can. A gentle, kind approach with metta, I think. Also, we may know monks may have wrong view, but we still pay respect, not thinking of the individual but the Sangha which is represented. So we try to have respectful speech, just (as with elderly people) as a courtesy and out of respect for the teachings. It's true as Sukin said, that the true meaning of 'Sangha' refers to the ariyan sangha of the triple gem, but this is what is represented and what we pay respect to when pay respect to the Bhikkhu Sangha. It doesn't mean we're contributing to the corruption of the Dhamma at such moments! (Of course at other moments of reflecting with wrong view, it's another matter). As usual, it comes down to the cittas - not the bhikkhu's, but our own. [Having said all that, the letter addressed to Ven Nyanaponika from the editor seemed extraordinarily disrespectful, even if his (appropriate, in this case) comments were given at an inappropriate time or in an inappropriate manner.] Btw, Sukin, I visited Ven Nyanaponika not long after this episode with K.Sujin and Nina in Sri Lanka at his hermitage. His understanding of 'practice' was very different from ours, but we all paid sincere respects, spent a while having polite talk without any controversial topics being raised. I think we have to know what is appropriate. Friends of mine in London were once told they were no longer welcome at a temple there because they were heard talking to others about how the meditation (taught by the bhikkhus at the temple) was wrong practice, as I recall! Just my un-called for, probably inappropriate, comments! Metta, Sarah ======== #77109 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 6:36 am Subject: Asoka, Ch 7, no 3. nilovg Dear friends, Khun Sujin stressed that it is not self who considers the Dhamma. It is of no use to wait for the arising of sati, or to try to do different things first to cause its arising, then we forget again that sati is anattå. We read in the Commentary to the Cariyå Pitaka that “the destruction of self-love and the development of love for others are the means for the accomplishments of the påramís.” When we remember the goal and perform any kind of kusala, be it dåna, síla or study of the Dhamma, it is the way to accumulate the perfections. We read further on in the “Papañcasúdaní” that the Buddha is called “Tathågata” because he has “thus gone” (in Påli: tathå gato. Gato means “gone”) As soon as he was born he went the same way as the previous Buddhas: his feet were planted evenly on the ground, and, facing north, taking seven steps, he surveyed all the directions, saying, “I am the foremost in the world. I am pre-eminent in the world. I am supreme in the world. This is my last birth. There is now no renewal of existence.” The Commentary states that his going foretold his numerous achievements of spiritual distinction. When he surveyed all the directions it foretold his unobstructed omniscience, and when he uttered the words, “I am foremost in the world...”, it was the foretoken of “his setting in motion the supreme, irreversible Wheel of the Dhamma”. The term “gone” should be seen in the sense of bodily movement and in the sense of movement of knowledge. The Commentary explains further on that he, just as previous Buddhas, subdued the defilements which are the hindrances by the stages of jhåna, that, by the eighteen principal insights (mahå-vipassanå ñåna) he abandoned the deluded perceptions of permanence, pleasure, self, and the other defilements. He attained the four stages of enlightenment and eradicated subsequently all defilements until he reached arahatship. He is called the Tathågata because he has come to the real characteristic (of dhammas) (tathalakkhanam ågato. Lakkhana means “characteristic”). He has come to the real characteritics of all dhammas, such as the elements, the khandhas, the jhånafactors, all the factors leading to enlightenment and the factors of the “Dependent Origination” [1]. He realized true dhamma. Whatever is real appears through the six doors and its true nature can be known. Realities appear at this moment and through awareness and right understanding we can verify the truth. ---------- 1. The dependently arisen factors which cause the cycle of birth and death, beginning with ignorance. ****** Nina. #77110 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 6:36 am Subject: Conditions, Ch 16, no 6. nilovg Dear fiends, As regards physical life faculty, rúpa-jívitindriya, this is always present in the groups of rúpa produced by kamma. It does not occur in the groups of rúpa produced by citta, heat or nutrition. Eyesense, for example, is produced by kamma, and thus there must also be jívitindriya together with it in that group of rúpas. The same is true for the other senses. We read about life faculty in the “Visuddhimagga” (XIV, 59): The life faculty has the characteristic of maintaining conascent kinds of matter [1]. Its function is to make them occur. It is manifested in the establishing of their presence. And although it has the capacity consisting in the characteristic of maintaining, etc., yet it only maintains conascent kinds of matter at the moment of presence, as water does lotuses and so on. Though dhammas arise due to their own conditions, it maintains them, as a wet-nurse does a prince.... Past kamma is cause in the production of rúpa, but it is not present in the same way as the other three factors which produce rúpa: citta, temperature and nutrition. A deed, done in the past has fallen away, but the intention or volition which motivated that deed is accumulated from moment to moment. The force of past kamma is carried on and therefore kamma still has the power to produce rúpa at present. Life faculty takes as a “wetnurse” the place of kamma, the “mother”, in maintaining the life of the kamma-produced rúpas. Thus, life faculty conditions these rúpas by way of presence-condition. Life faculty maintains the life of the rúpas it arises together with in a group, it consolidates them, and then it falls away together with them. However, life faculty also plays its part in the successive arising of kamma-produced rúpas throughout life. Life faculty performs its task of consolidating kamma-produced rúpas from birth to death. Life faculty is a condition for distinguishing kamma-produced rúpa from other kinds of rúpa. We cling to the body which is alive, we cling to eyesense and earsense and take them for self. They are only elements maintained by life faculty, a kind of rúpa which is not self. They arise only because there are the appropriate conditions for their arising. When we lose eyesense or earsense, it is evident that there are no longer conditions for the arising of these kamma- produced rúpas. ----------- 1. Life faculty arises together with other rúpas in a group and it maintains these rúpas. ****** Nina. #77111 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 6:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddha Gotama, a Once Returner? jonoabb Hi Alex Welcome to the list from me. I've been following your posts with interest. However, I'm a little puzzled on this particular thread, because I don't see the relevance of the reasons/evidence you've mentioned to the issue at hand (namely, whether the Bodhisatta was a sakadagamin when reborn in the lifetime in which he obtained Buddhahood). Would you mind explaining the connection? Thanks. I am also wondering how you define a 'sakadagamin'. To me, a sakadagamin is a person who has attained the 2nd of the 4 stages of enlightenment. Is this your definition too (and if so what textual 'evidence' is there on this point)? Thanks. Jon Alex wrote: > Hi Robert, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > >>> ---------- >>> >> Wasn't Jotipala born into a Brahmin family and adopted their wrong >> views (if I am remembering the story correctly). Wrong view is very >> powerful and can even influence a bodisatta at times. >> ---------------------------- >> > > So even after 4AK's and 300,000 MK's some wrong view of caste could > be picked up by about 99% complete Bodhisatta? How many Paramis did > he manage to complete? Speaking of which, WHERE IN THE (DN,MN,SN,AN) > is there a talk about Buddha taking a vow and completing 10 paramis? > ... #77112 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 6:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Person in the Dhatuvibhanga Sutta, MN 140 - a mere concept? sarahprocter... Hi Swee Boon & all, Your difficult questions get an even slower response:) .... --- nidive wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > Firstly, I would like to question something about Nanamoli/Bodhi's > translation. > > > "Bhikkhu, this person consists of six elements, six bases of > > contact, and eighteen kinds of mental exploration, and he has four > > foundations. > > Nanamoli/Bodhi says that the person "CONSISTS OF ...", and then later > changes to 'he "HAS" four foundations'. > > Why can't it be translated as "Bhikkhu, this person consists of six > elements, six bases of contact, eighteen kinds of mental exploration > and four foundations."? .... S: I think the answer is that the six elements and so on refer to what is taken for being the person. On the other hand, the 'four foundations' (catura adhi.t.thaana)refer to the four bases for attaining the final goal. From note 1270 in the Nanamoli/Bodhi transl" "Pa~n~naadhi.t.thaana, saccaadhi.t.thaana, caagaadhi.t.thaana, upasamaadhi.t.thaana.....MA glosses the word with pati.t.thaa, which clearly means foundation, and explains the sense of the statement thus: "This person who consists of the six elements, the six bases of contact, and the eighteen kinds of mental approach - when he turns away from these and attains arahantship, the supreme accomplishment, he does so established upon these four bases." (Nina gave the Pali before and we both gave more detail on these four foundations, starting with pa~n~naa.) .... > Does this express a difference of opinion between Nanamoli & Bodhi? ... S: No idea, though B.Bodhi refers to N's Ms. in which he had planned to use 'resolve' and then 'mode of expression' for adhi.t.thaana here. BB suggests neither are suitable in conttext. Again see Nina's quote from the comy to the Cariya Pitaka: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/76294 ... > If we look at Thanissaro's translation, he is very consistent by > using "HAS" all the way. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.140.than.html > > The Blessed One said: "A person has six properties, six media of > sensory contact, eighteen considerations, & four determinations. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > I find this a curious point in Nanamoli/Bodhi's translation. Could it > be possible that their translation is tainted by ideas found in the > commentaries, which is why they use "consists of" at the beginning, > but for some unknown reason, they decided to change to "he has four > foundations" at the end of the sentence? .... S: Of course the commentay (some of which I quoted last time) adds a wealth of fine detail on these foundations. However, even in the sutta the Budha says that "One should not neglect wisdom, should preserve truth, should cutivate relinquishment, and should train for peace." It goes on to give detail about the elements and so on which should be understood by wisdom. Later, it says "Therefore, a bhikkhu possessing [this wisdom] possesses the supreme foundation of wisdom.....", and so on. So clearly we cannot say the person 'consists of' 'four foundations' or that the 'four foundations' are what are taken for being a person. .... > Secondly, I would like to say that it is not because of not > construing there to be a person that one is called a sage at peace. > > It is because of not construing there to be a self of a person that > one is called a sage at peace. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.140.than.html > > "'He has been stilled where the currents of construing do not flow. > And when the currents of construing do not flow, he is said to be a > sage at peace.' Thus was it said. With reference to what was it > said? 'I am' is a construing. 'I am this' is a construing. 'I shall > be' is a construing. 'I shall not be'... 'I shall be possessed of > form'... 'I shall not be possessed of form'... 'I shall be > percipient'... 'I shall not be percipient'... 'I shall be neither > percipient nor non-percipient' is a construing. Construing is a > disease, construing is a cancer, construing is an arrow. By going > beyond all construing, he is said to be a sage at peace. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > No where did the Buddha say that "a person" is a construing. .... S: If the elements are not understood as elements, then they are inevitably taken for being a person in actuality. ... > A person, made up of the five aggregates, is real & existing, with > past ignorance & craving as its cause. Having arisen with such a > cause, the person at the end of its life span, its life-sustaining > kamma exhausted, at death, with the breakup of the five aggregates, > also ceases to be. .... S: !! I'd like to encourage others to pursue this further with you, Swee Boon. I'd like to do a check and see who agrees and who doesn't agree with it at this point. I think I've said enough on the topic of person for now:-) Thanks for sharing your comments. Metta, Sarah ========= #77113 From: "Phil" Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 7:40 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Asoka, Ch 6, no 6. philofillet Hi Jon > What you have paraphrased AS as saying I would word as follows: > "Every word in the Tipitaka is geared towards eventual escape from > samsara and thus in one way or another is about understanding present > realities". OK Jon, this I can agree with. > > As I see it, when the talk is about sila, to take that as an example, > what is being urged is not the sila of someone who has no knowledge of > the teachings (even though such a person may have a high level of sila One thing that is urged again and again in many suttas in AN is avoiding evil deeds in order to seek a favorable destination in the next rebirth. The greatest hapiness of the householder who is devoted to sensual pleasures" or something like that (i.e all of us) is defined as beging "free of blame," which is said to be many times more valuable than the other forms of happiness that are available to us. (Pleasure of possessions, etc.) I know you and others here don't agree, but a kind of morality that is not conditional on understanding of dhammas is taught in the suttanta, especially in AN. Deeper sila accompanied by panna is more valuable, of course, but anyone (such as Ken) who denies that a conventional morality is taught in many suttas in AN has either a) not read AN or b) has read it with blinders on. I used to reject AN when I was a student of AS because it just couldn't click. > but the development of sila in conjunction with the development of > awareness/right understanding (of course, to the extent possible given > one's limited previous development of sila and awareness). > This is because, as you will know, sila that is unsupported by > satipatthana is sila that is 'affected by taints, partaking of merit, > ripening on the side of attachment' (MN 117), and this is not what is > being urged upon us, worthy though it may be in being kusala. The > danger of it is that it inevitably brings with it a greater idea of > self, of someone who 'can do it'. Only the ariyan is free of ideas of self. The wrong view stressed first and foremost (see all the definitions of wrong view) by the Buddha is not about not-having Ariyan right view. The wrong view stressed by the Buddha is about not believing in the principle of kamma. I know what wrong view is, I have had it at times recently. Wrong view is very, very different from not having Ariyan right view. Believe me, I know! When your are coming across the most serious forms of wrong view in yourself, being told to fear the wrong view that is not having Ariyan right view is not very helpful. > So both sila and satipatthana are to be developed, and neither should be > seen in isolation of the other. I think if you look closely when > reading your sutta passages on sila you'll find almost invariably some > reference also to satipatthana/vipassana/developed understanding, not > just 'bare' sila for its own sake. Well, I'll keep looking, thanks for the encouragement. And have a great trip. Metta, Phil p.s we are bickering about the computer again, I am backsliding, so will be putting in a program to block access to the 'net for some time to come. Again, I say, as before, "could be months, could be years." Here for sure there is no control! #77114 From: "Alex" Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 9:38 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Buddha Gotama, a Once Returner? truth_aerator Hi Jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Hi Alex > > Welcome to the list from me. > I don't see the relevance of the reasons/evidence you've mentioned to the issue at hand (namely, whether the Bodhisatta was a sakadagamin when reborn in the lifetime in which he obtained Buddhahood). Would you mind explaining the connection? Thanks. >>>>>> First of all it was NOT my idea. I've heard it from some Theravada Venerables, and I've read somewhere that one of early schools (was it sautrantikas or Sarvastivadins?) believed that Buddha was Sakadagamin. Basically what I was trying to say is that it appears that to become a Buddha one does NOT have to take a vow, and becoming a Sotopanna could make one a Buddha (but the chances are of course very very slim). This makes the goal (Arahatship) less egotistic and answers some of Mahayanist attacks. > I am also wondering how you define a 'sakadagamin'. To me, a > sakadagamin is a person who has attained the 2nd of the 4 stages of > enlightenment. Is this your definition too (and if so what textual > 'evidence' is there on this point)? > > Thanks. > > Jon Yes this is the definition. An ariya who forever rooted out 3 fetters and weakened 2 (lust&anger). The suttas which I've brought up appear to suggest that it is very likely that the Buddha Gotama became a Sotopanna under Buddha Kassapa, then as an Ariya he came to Earth and achieved Arahatship when there weren't any arahats. Being the first Arahant in this civilization he was also a Buddha. Lots of Metta, Alex #77115 From: Dieter Möller Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 10:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Asoka, Ch 6, no 6. moellerdieter Hi Sarah (Howard, Sukin, Robert, Tep..), I am behind with responses to several messages, particular those being in disagreement with...less due to loss of words, but feeling a bit tired.. You have a nice way to refer to issues, motivating a brief feedback. 'On the other hand, I sympathised and liked many of Dieter's reflections on paying respect. Dieter, you made some very compassionate comments in passing about knowing we all have conceit, we try to find ways to explain or correct wrong Dhamma in a way that isn't so direct as to cause loss of face if we can.A gentle, kind approach with metta, I think. Also, we may know monks may have wrong view, but we still pay respect, not thinking of the individual but the Sangha which is represented. So we try to have respectful speech, just (as with elderly people) as a courtesy and out of respect for the teachings. ' D: Yes, a gentle , kind approach with Metta. Wrong (harsh) speech is akusala , in general to no one's benefit. You quoted previously from the commentaries of Maha Padesa: "..It should not be treated with scorn': One should not say in advance [i.e of collation]. 'What is this fool saying?', for it one does, he will not even say what it is proper to say....." *****'If the word of a teacher agrees with the sutta, it should be accepted, but otherwise not. One's own opinion is weakest of all, but if it agrees with the sutta, it should be accepted, but otherwise not.' Too often , we neglect that our own opinion is the weakest of all and miss the chance to learn another perspective . In case of a seemingly sutta contradiction there is still a possibility instead of critisizing to put the issue into a question , giving the other party a chance to correct without losing face, isn't it?(knowing my own experience of failures ;-) S: It's true as Sukin said, that the true meaning of 'Sangha' refers to the ariyan sangha of the triple gem, but this is what is represented and what we pay respect to when pay respect to the Bhikkhu Sangha. ' D: in case there are not obvious signs of greed,hate and delusion or misconduct in respect to the vinaya, one should be very careful with one's judgement who is an ariyan and who is not .. we householders are in a weak position anyway S: [Having said all that, the letter addressed to Ven Nyanaponika from the editor seemed extraordinarily disrespectful, even if his (appropriate, in this case) comments were given at an inappropriate time or in an inappropriate manner.] D:, 'appropriate, in this case ' if Ven. Nyanaponika would have addressed his (un-called?) letter to the author of the bio, Phra Maha Boowa, respectively to the Council of Elders, instead to the laity ( WFB ). The reaction from the editor was nevertheless disrespectful , though somehow understandable as probably an attack from another school (scholarly vs foresty) on Acharn Mun was assumed , who widely was/is regarded to be a saint in Thailand. Now , after 30 years, Nyanaponika has passed away and - I assume - as well the chief editor. Let grass grow over it.. ;-) S:Btw, Sukin, I visited Ven Nyanaponika not long after this episode with K.Sujin and Nina in Sri Lanka at his hermitage. His understanding of 'practice' was very different from ours, but we all paid sincere respects, spent a while having polite talk without any controversial topics being raised. I think we have to know what is appropriate. D: Sarah, your understanding of practise (and I mean now the " DSG Abhidhammika Gang " ;-) ) is quite different from 'mainstream Buddhism' . That even Ven. Nyanaponika , who - so I assume - was wellversed in the Abhidhamma , told you so, should give you some re-consideration . S: Friends of mine in London were once told they were no longer welcome at a temple there because they were heard talking to others about how the meditation (taught by the bhikkhus at the temple) was wrong practice, as I recall! D: no Dhamma contradiction assumed , that seems to me a rather naive thing to do so , not to talk about the credentials of your friends to know about right practise. S: Just my un-called for, probably inappropriate, comments! D: Sarah, your comments are called for ... ;-) with Metta Dieter #77116 From: "Alex" Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 11:00 am Subject: What exactly is Panna? truth_aerator Hello all, Please forgive me if this came up before. What exactly is Panna? Is Wisdom (Panna): a) intellectual (book) knowledge of the Dhamma? b) Way of viewing (through 4NT, 3 characteristics, causality) and doing things that one knows should be done? c) Intuitive and penetrative understanding caused by Samadhi? According to the suttas, it appears to me, that it is mostly b & c. --- 5 Faculties: Conviction, persistence, mindfulness, samadhi, discernment (panna). Notice a possible step by step development saddha -> viriya -> sati - > samadhi -> panna. One has conviction, develops good qualities while abandons bad ones, develops mindfulness that reaches samadhi from which liberating Panna arises. Arising and Passing away seems like 13th step of Anapanasati. Considering that 4 Jhanas (samadhi) came just right before Panna, it is not unlikely that Panna develops through Jhanas and in some way is based on them. ------ And what is the faculty of discernment? There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, is discerning, endowed with discernment of arising & passing away — noble, penetrating, leading to the right ending of stress. He discerns, as it has come to be: 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.' This is called the faculty of discernment. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn48/sn48.010.than.html Also in other suttas samma ditthi is generally described as 4 NT. One discerns, 'This is stress.' One discerns, 'This is the origination of stress.' One discerns, 'This is the cessation of stress.' One discerns, 'This is the practice leading to the cessation of stress.' 'One discerns, one discerns': Thus one is said to be 'discerning.'" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.043.than.html ------------ "And how is right view the forerunner? One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view. And what is wrong view? 'There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed. There is no fruit or result of good or bad actions. There is no this world, no next world, no mother, no father, no spontaneously reborn beings; no priests or contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is wrong view... (right view is the opposite of the wrong view written above) "One tries to abandon wrong view & to enter into right view: This is one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon wrong view & to enter & remain in right view: This is one's right mindfulness. Thus these three qualities — right view, right effort, & right mindfulness — run & circle around right view." — MN 117 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca4/samma- ditthi/index.html -------------- Another factor that goes into Wisdom is samma-sankappo (Right resolve) "And what is right resolve? Being resolved on renunciation, on freedom from ill-will, on harmlessness: This is called right resolve." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn45/sn45.008.than.html ------------ Lots of Metta, Alex #77118 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 1:59 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Tep's Photo indriyabala Dear Sarah and Han, - Thank you both for saying nice words about the picture. I thought I should have bought a better camera. But even with a better camera plus digital touching the ageing cannot be altered (it only gets worse every passing day). Tep === #77119 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 2:58 pm Subject: Re: Asoka, Ch 6, no 6. indriyabala Dear Dieter and Sarah, - Your conversation touched upon a few interesting issues that I like to comment on. (1) Dieter: Too often , we neglect that our own opinion is the weakest of all and miss the chance to learn another perspective. In case of a seemingly sutta contradiction there is still a possibility instead of critisizing to put the issue into a question , giving the other party a chance to correct without losing face, isn't it? (knowing my own experience of failures ;-) T: Isn't that neglect an ignorance that associates with a conceit? I think when we are mindful of our own avijja (in the sense of lacking insight into the sutta being discussed) and maana (fear of losing face), perhaps we may become a little more considerate of the other party. (2) D: in case there are not obvious signs of greed, hate and delusion or misconduct in respect to the vinaya, one should be very careful with one's judgement who is an ariyan and who is not .. we householders are in a weak position anyway. T: I know of a number of householders who think it is their "duty" to monitor/evaluate monks' conforming to the Dhamma-vinaya. You are right that we householders are not qualified to judge a monk; it is a duty of the abbot of the monastery. But if I am correct, then who eveluates the abbot's Dhamma-vinaya? (3) S: Friends of mine in London were once told they were no longer welcome at a temple there because they were heard talking to others about how the meditation (taught by the bhikkhus at the temple) was wrong practice, as I recall! T: If I were a monk in that temple, I would be glad for the chance to discuss with your friends how the meditation practice there should be improved. Again, it was a problem of 'fear of losing face'. Tep === #77120 From: "colette" Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 12:05 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Controversy? ksheri3 Hi Sarah, I was sitting around having drinks with my friend Mahakala when I brought this thought forward. > > I HAVE ALWAYS GOTTEN, RECEIVED, THE SENSE, FEELING, INTUITION, THAT > > THE MEMBERS OF THIS GROUP ARE HIGHLY SKIDDISH OF REALITY. > .... > S: Hmmm - you'd have to elaborate.... colette: I never thought I'd run into a situation where I'd be speaking of sensations I've had so we'll have to let me meditate on this subject and recall the past dharma. Good thought though, keeping my abilities active. --------------------------- I LOVE the topic of REALITY! > colette: it's a great topic since it's never the same, constantly being reshaped and taking on new forms all by itself without any input from outsiders. It's sooooo fluid. ----------------------------------------- > What is reality now, Colette? (Clue: remember those namas and rupas we > were discussing.....!!) > ... colette: THAT WAS HILLARIOUS! THANK YOU. Jeeze, if you could just here the stereotyping to the voice I picture you having and how I worked the sound levels you'd have to laugh as well. I'd hate to say it but I'd have to place you in the body of Saturday Night Live's "Church Lady". I mean it's just a great view to add to that question of what reality is not. --------------------------------------- > .... > S: Pls do. I haven't seen anyone advocating non-action, though I have seen > a few cross arrows suggesting others are advocating non-action. colette: there is a lethargy here. I can't explain it right now, gotta go in a few, but it's more subdued nature. ---------------------------------- > > In the end, whether active or non-active, sitting or running, protesting > or staying quietly at home, there are still the same REALITIES to be > known. Still just experiences through 6 door-ways! colette: and now ya had to set him off. There goes Mahakala with that crown of his having those subdued skulls, the five subdued skulls. He just gets dancin' around almost in a drunken stupor, but I know torpor isn't one of his forteys. > S: Thx for this kind note. Pls join in my discussion with DC anytime too! > colette: which discussion is that? toodles, colette #77121 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 4:46 pm Subject: Q. Re: Conditions, Ch 15, no 9. indriyabala Dear Nina, - I am writing this reply for you to read after the India trip in case you do not have time now. I enjoy your practical, down-to-earth explanation of the approach to dhamma investigation. You explain, citing Sukin's interpretation of pa.tipatti, that the "paññå of the noble eightfold Path" is "the investigation of the dhamma appearing at the present moment". Seeing an object and feeling of hardness appearing now are some examples you have given. Importantly, you say that such investigation "will gradually be conditions for awareness and understanding of the level of pa.tipatti". Yes, I agree with you that being mindful to investigate any seeing/hearing/tactile-sensing that is appearing now (one at a time) is useful. However, I do not yet see how the suggested investigation may by itself lead to the 'jaanam passam yathaabhuutam' in the following sutta passage. "Bhikkhus, when one knows and sees the eye, forms, eye-consciousness, eye-contact, and feelings that arises with eye-contact as condition, as they actually are (jaanam passam yathaabhuutam), then one is not inflamed by lust (na saarajjati) for them.[MN 149] ............... I concur with the following explanations you gave, regarding the "investigation of the dhamma appearing at the present moment". >N: Vitakka which 'touches' the nama or rupa which appears and is object of investigation, supports understanding. But when there is not yet pa.tipatti I would not speak of sammaa-sankappa, etc. >N: The term vipassanaa I would reserve for the stages of insight, and we cannot expect them to arise soon. Ignorance has been accumulated for so long. >N : It is above all supported by right understanding of what nama is, what rupa is, what sati is, different from thinking. Then, it is supported by all the perfections, including siila. Thank you very much. Tep === #77122 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 6:30 pm Subject: Re: Perfections Corner (15) indriyabala Hello Sarah (and Colette), - I have two no-nonsense questions to ask you in regard to the Buddhist Mahayaana tradition ("those who follows it are called Maadhyamikas"). Wikipedia : > According to the Maadhyamikas, all phenomena are empty of "self nature" or "essence" (Sanskrit: Svabhaava), meaning that they have no intrinsic, independent reality apart from the causes and conditions from which they arise. .... S: In other words, only concepts, no realities, so only an understanding of concepts is ever developed. ............. Question 1. Do Maadhyamikas consider "concepts" in their Mahayaana tradition? I think you cannot make the above deduction if the term "concepts" is not their concern. > Tep: The definition above suggests that the DSG Abhidhammikas are > Maadhyamikas. But isn't that contradicting to Theravada? .... S: Yes, the views of the Madhymaaka as briefly summarised here are not Theravada inc. Abhidhamma. If that's how they sound to you, we have a lot more work to do:-). ........... Question 2. How are the DSG Abhidhammikas' views different from those of the Maadhyamikas? Whether or not we have "work to do" depends on how you answer Question 2. Tep === #77123 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 6:57 pm Subject: Re: An Introduction to Buddhism- 1 scottduncan2 Dear Tep, Thanks for the reply and the kind words. Before I plunge into your last post, I think I'd like to know how you define 'dhamma'. I think we are using the word in entirely different ways. I'm not sure that the use of 'dhamma' within your full reply is actually correct (although I might be wrong about that). I hope you don't mind this brief, but important, interlude before a full reply. Sincerely, Scott. #77124 From: "Sukinder" Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 7:39 pm Subject: Re: Some Findings About Self and Self Views sukinderpal Hi Howard and Jon, Butting in here if you don't mind. =================== Jon: Time and again the Buddha emphasised how dhammas are to be seen and understood as they truly are. This I think means as they are at the moment of their being experienced. To my understanding of the theory, at the moments of seeing that are occurring as this message is being typed (in my case) or read (in yours), there is no text or monitor in the visible object being experienced. ------------------------------------------------------------- Howard That's right. The message, text, and monitor are experienced via mind door. The experiencing of them ADDS to our knowledge. Without a wisdom that enables directly experiencing interrelationships among dhammas and also without conceptualization that enables the indirect experiencing of interrelationships among dhammas, we would NOT know "the all" fully. Dhammas-in- relation is the nature of existence, not separate dhammas. Sukin: Howard, I may be misunderstanding you and therefore misrepresenting, in which case please clarify. You have made similar statements about different level of realities many times, and each time it has never appealed to me. In fact in your post to Jon before this one when you said the following: >> IMO, what you say here is true, but more that is true can be said. When we hear a song we hear a sequence of sounds which are interrelated in very particular ways, and it is those interrelationships that make the sequence a song rather than just noise. It is due to the interrelatedness of the heard sounds that enables the perceiving (and conceiving) of the song. And to the extent that there is that interrelatedness, there is a song. The "song" is imputed upon the sounds by thought, and there is no song independent of thought. Thus the song is concept. But it is not baseless concept. It is by by means of our conceptualization that we can know and deal with relations.<< My first reaction was what if the music was in staccato? And if instead of one instrument say violin, there were hundreds of them and these were arranged in such a way that they all alternatively played one note at a time and sounded as if it was coming from the same instrument? Wouldn't the mind-door process wrap up the story in exactly the same way as it would were there only one violin playing? I don't think panna is involved in the kind of stories you are referring to. Panna of vipassana *insights* and this process is completely different from "thinking about" all that has been experienced through the five sense doors and the mind. I think the real problem however, is in the *atta sanna* which seems to condition a need to come to a conclusion about what is perceived. That there are relationships "out there" is not something that we can know, certainly not through thinking, and should not concern us at all. What we can ever know is what is directly experienced namely, one dhamma at a time; this is what I think Jon is trying to get across. Any understanding of conditional relations is understood through insight of individual dhammas and would not come in the form of ideas about objects "out there". Besides conditional relations involve namas, and the only namas existing in relationship and can be known, are those that arise now, and these fall away together completely. So nothing remains for `thinking' to *see* any relationship. Even the relationship between say, craving and clinging, is not something we are supposed to observe in sequence, but is something insighted, I believe. I therefore think that you are missing the point in thinking about *levels of realities*. In fact this seems not unlike the kind of "trying to make sense of reality" that everyone else does. In their case they use a different `theory' to explain their experience; and you are doing so with yours. And I believe that though this appears relatively harmless now, it can lead to increase of atta view later on. This should be of real concern. -------------------------------------------------------------- Jon: As to exactly *how* the concept of text or monitor comes to be created based on present sense-door experiences, that is an interesting area to consider, but something that I would see as being in the nature of a 'story about' rather than direct experience, if you see what I mean. -------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Everything expressed as speech is "story". Most stories are of little importance. The story of interrelations is an important one, however, it seems to me, and a true one. Sukin: The story of interrelationships involves dhammas as expressed in teachings of Paticcasamuppada and Patthana. And I think this is the only valid source from which worldlings like you and I could ever `learn' anything about the subject. ;-) Metta, Sukin #77125 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Oct 6, 2007 2:22 am Subject: What is dhamma? (What I heard, 2.) nilovg Dear friends, I heard this on a Thai tape. All realities that appear have arisen. Colour or sound could not appear if they had not arisen. When they appear their characteristics can be known. When one is angry, anger appears. It appears because it has arisen. If the reality that appears is not understood as it is, there is an idea of self. We cling to all our experiences and we take them for self. We do not see them as dhammas. In order to know that what appears now is dhamma, we need to listen and thoroughly investigate whatever appears. If we listen only once or only a few times there cannot be any understanding of the realities that appear. We cannot remember all we have heard. We need listening many times so that our own understanding can develop. We often hear the words: ‘ at this moment there is dhamma’, but one may not know where to find dhamma. One may read Dhamma books or the whole Tipi.taka, but still not understand the truth of this very moment, in daily life. When there is seeing, we should know that seeing is dhamma. If one does not understand this, one’s listening is not sufficient. One may believe that the Dhamma is theoretical, that it ‘is in the book’. When one listens one can understand that the Buddha had accumulated the perfections and realized at the moment of his enlightenment the truth, namely, what is true at each moment of daily life. We could not find out the truth by ourselves since we are not the Buddha. When we are listening we can understand that dhamma is that which appears naturally at this moment. When pa~n~naa is still of the level of listening, one has not yet penetrated the true characteristic of the dhamma that appears now as not self, not mine. Dhamma is reality and it has no owner. When is it real? When it is appearing. If it did not arise it would not appear. The Buddha explained the Dhamma so that the listeners would investigate it for themselves, consider it and develop ‘their own’ pa~n~naa stage by stage. One should not just believe what one reads and studies. It is through the Buddha’s compassion that he taught Dhamma, so that we ourselves can investigate what we hear and develop our own understanding. Therefore, his teaching in this way is of the highest value. The more we study the more will there be right understanding of the Dhamma. At this moment there is dhamma and if we are not forgetful of it there can be the understanding that seeing which experiences visible object through the eyesense is dhamma. Naama is the dhamma that knows or experiences and ruupa is the dhamma that does not know anything. When we go elsewhere we forget to consider naama and ruupa and this shows that we have to listen again and again, consider the truth again and again, until sati can be directly aware of naama and ruupa and understanding of them can grow. When we study and investigate the Dhamma we should not be impatient, we should not wish to hasten the development of understanding or want to understand everything immediately. ****** Nina. #77126 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Oct 6, 2007 2:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Puggala pa~n~natti sarahprocter... Hi Tep, Another slow reply - --- Tep Sastri wrote: > S: "The Buddhas have two kinds of discourse, the popular and the > philosophical. Those relating to a being, a person, a deva, a brahma > and so forth, are popular discourses, while those relating to > impermanence, ill, soul-less, the aggregates, the elements, the > senses, the application of mindfulness, the intent contemplation, and > so forth, are discourses on highest meaning." > > T: I am gald that you came down from "the blue sky above" to kindly > talk to me about the Teachings. Dear Sarah, it does not make any > logical sense to me why He spent a great deal of time talking > about "a being, a person, a deva, a brahma and so forth' in the sutta- > pitaka, if these beings, puggalas, bhrahmas, etc. and the monks > themselves were non-existent. .... S: As discussed at length, we have to use conventional terms and names, but in the absolute sense, there are only absolute realities. If the Buddha had just talked about dhatus, about kusala, akusala, vipaka, kiriya and so on, it would not have been seen as 'real life'. This way, we understand about the different accumulations of different lay-people and bhikkhus, but understand that there are only dhammas. .... >Why did He specify the Dhamma-vinaya in > the Vinaya-piyaka as the practice for the non-existent monks? It is > true that He talked about the higher siila, higher samaadhi, and > higher pa~n~naa in the Tipitaka. But in these suttas He always talked > to the monks the same way He did in the "popular discourses". .... S: Again, in an absolute sense, there are only various types and moments of kusala, akusala and so on being discussed. It is Abhidhamma, but presented by way of Vinaya. There are different classes of offences according to cittas, according to intention and acts. When there is no akusala, there is no Vinaya, as was initially the case. So the Vinaya is for those bhikkhus who still have akusala and have the intention to follow the code and conduct of the bhikkhus. Without an understanding of absolute realities, we are bound to read the Vinaya and Suttanta with an idea of self, questioning all the time, thinking the texts are a prescription of how to behave, not realising it's no one at all, just a reality which abstains from akusala. As discussed before, without the development of the Path, with a very deep understanding of namas and rupas and the impermanence of these, adhi siila can never be developed, let alone perfected. So, the Vinaya has to be followed along with an understanding of satipatthana as well. .... ***** > S: Take (5)above "One liable to fall away (gotrabhuu)". Gotrabhuu > refers to a single citta (chane-of-lineage citta) which is succeeded > by the single citta of magga citta (path-consciousness). > > T: I understand differently, Sarah. 'Gotrabhuu' is the designation of > a Bhikkhu or a lay-Buddhist. ... S: For how long? How long does the gotrabhuu citta last? It is a single citta which has nibbana as object. For example, in the mind-door process of enlightenment, it conditions the following magga-citta in the same set of javana cittas. It adverts to nibbana and ceases immediately. So if we call it a Bhikkhu or a Lay-Buddhist, we should realise that these are just names for a single citta. .... > Thank you for bearing with my argumentative discussion for so long. ... S: A pleasure, Tep. A real pleasure. You raise good points and it's better to continue discussing them until satisfied. I appreciate your sincere and keen study and interest in the Dhamma a lot. Metta, Sarah p.s. I may not have mentioned that I raised a very old qu of yours with K.Sujin when we last saw here some months ago. You asked Nina (in #48331) bout why sanna and vedana are chosen to be called citta-sankhara and not the other 50 cetasikas. Her answer was that all cetasikas are included here. I think as Nina replied (in #48337), it depends on the context what is stressed. There are many examples like this where just a couple of cetasikas are mentioned in a sutta or other text, but they are just given as 'representatives' of all the cetasikas, ========== #77127 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Oct 6, 2007 2:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "there is no ‘person’" - "The controversy on ‘person’ is ended" sarahprocter... Hi Tep, In #76194, you wrote a long post picking up many points along the themes which have been discussed at length since on chariots and people. (For some reason, it didn't come to my in-box). There were just a couple of small points that I wish to address here: 1. You mentioned that 'The right view based on "not-self" therefore avoids dukkha by dropping ditthi-samyojana (fetter of view). I'd just say we have to discuss further what is meant by dukkha here. In the absolute sense (the sense of the 4NT), all conditioned dhammas are dukkha. Even the Buddha could therefore not avoid dukkha until parinibbana. 2. I had mentioned that when there is no understanding that it is visible object which appears, there is bound to be an idea of atta. The same for the other senses. Likewise when there's no understanding that it's seeing consciousness which experiences/is the experiencing of visible object, there is an idea of atta. You wrote: "I do not understand your motivation. Why do you think of these two cases of non-visible object and seeing consciousness as atta?" S: Simply, when we don't appreciate that only visible object is seen, there's an idea that it is computers, lamps and people that are seen, for example. This is atta-belief, wrong understanding of realities. Similarly, when we think that 'we' see objects, there is an idea of atta. Note: none of this has anything to do with the worldly language and designations we use. It doesn't mean we stop addressing each other as Tep and Sarah because there is a growth in understanding! Similarly, in answer to another qu. of yours in the same post, the Buddha continued to address his disciples such as Sariputta and listeners by name. No misunderstanding involved. I hope others will pursue any of these topics while I'm away, which I hope you'll continue to respond to. Metta, Sarah ========= #77128 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Oct 6, 2007 3:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Person in the Dhatuvibhanga Sutta, MN 140 - a mere concept? sarahprocter... Dear Tep, --- Tep Sastri wrote: > My problem is I do not understand why the original writer of the > Abhidhamma text, Puggala Pa~n~natti, found it necessary to expound on > the "twelve classes of intelligent beings or puggala" IF they had no > real existence. Why wasting time talking about non-existence? > A 12-ghost story? .... S: :-) I think this has been answered at length. Different kinds of concepts are used to point to absolute realities. ..... > S: We can then read the entire text of "Puggala-pa~n~nati" with a)an > understanding that all the references to people are designations or > sammutisacca, pointing to various combinations of cittas, cetasikas > and rupas, or b) with an understanding, like the Puggalavaadins, that > in each example, 'the person is known in the sense of a real and > ultimate fact.....'. > > T: Does the above remark indicate your softened stance that allows > the twelve kinds of "person" to also be real, i.e. having real > existence ? ... S: No chance! The answer b) is the Puggalavaadin understanding which is clearly shown to be wrong view in the texts. I think I'm now up-to-date with your older posts addressed to me, Tep. Again, apologies for all the delays. Metta, Sarah ========== #77129 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Oct 6, 2007 3:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Confucian mentality insighting Namas & Rupas? sarahprocter... Hi Colette, You wrote sometime ago: --- colette wrote: > Good Day Sarah, <...> > So, when dealing with nama (mental constituents) and rupa (physical > constitutents) where can I find the S.O.P. concerning when I apply > them in an Ultimate reality basis and when I apply them in a > Conventional reality basis or context? .... S: It's not a matter of 'applying' them. It's more a matter of understanding that everything we find so important in life really comes down to these namas and rupas. For example, we are very attached to what we see, but really all that is ever seen is a rupa, visible object. The same with sounds, smells, tastes and tangible objects. Only impermanent rupas are experienced through the 5 senses. Likewise, we find the seeing, hearing and other sense experiences so important, but these are momentary namas only. All the ideas and dreams we have about them are thinking of concepts about what has arisen or what may arise. ..... >>S: Namas and rupas refer to the actualities that make up our lives > > colette: what planet are you on? Namas strictly deal with MENTAL > PHENOMINA. That which is mental phenomina in your mind is not in my > mind and therefore IS NOT AN ACTUALITY, ... S: Namas refer to a) all kinds of consciousness (cittas), including sense-door experiencing, such as seeing and hearing, and b) to the mental factors which accompany all these kinds of consciousness (cetasikas), including feelings, perceptions, likes, dislikes and so on. When a nama arises, it is an actuality. At this moment there is seeing, there is feeling, there is touching, there is remembering. These are all actualities. .... > colette: how can you prove that these consciousnesses are not man- > made manifestations of a psuedo-reality? Boy do you need a lot of > work on distinguishing between real and imagined. .... S: At a moment of awareness now, seeing-consciousness or feeling or any other nama can be directly known. On the other-hand, the computer or telephone can only be imagined or thought about. I hope others pick up this thread if you pursue it, because I think it's an important topic. Thanks, Colette. Metta, Sarah p.s Sorry to hear about your difficulties at home. Hope they improve. =========== #77130 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Oct 6, 2007 3:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Casting Dies sarahprocter... Hi Colette, --- colette wrote: <..> > I am certainly guilty of playing with, abusing, the rise and ceasation, > of emotional qualities in others yet I am doing it in a way so as to > raise enlightenment in those that are knee deep in the quagmire of > definitions/concepts. ... S: We have to find out for ourselves whether the motives are good or bad, whether there is metta or unkindness, whether we speak appropriately or not. ... > with that said then can't we naturally admit to attempting to > control "reincarnation", attempting to manifest and control another > person's thoughts, which include, THEN, karma, etc.? ... S: We think we have some control over all sorts of affairs in our life, including other people and ourselves. Conventionally, of course this may be so. But in an absolute sense, on a deeper leverl, it's impossible to control even the seeing or hearing at this moment. This is because of anatta. So what you suggest above is a myth! .... >Aren't Swee Boon, > Jon, and Scott trying to reach an agreement on the actual definitions > of nama and rupa which is to also control eachother's thoughts? ... S: If we were really able to control each other's thoughts, there'd be a lot more agreement than there is!! Seriously, the conditions which affect each moment of consciousness, each nama arising are very complicated indeed. What we read and consider now will certainly have an effect, but there are other conditions, such as our accumulated attachments and ignorance which also play an important role. Thx, Colette, for keenly reading all the posts and responding to many of my comments. I appreciate this a lot and look forward to talking more to you after our return, probably. Metta, Sarah =========== #77131 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Oct 6, 2007 2:42 am Subject: Animal Rebirth! bhikkhu0 Friends: Those heavily blinded by Ignorance takes Animal Rebirth! Because of greed one is reborn in eggs of geese, doves & other animals obsessed by great passion like in the womb of a rhinoceros... Because of ignorance one is reborn in the eggs of insects and worms. Because of hate one is reborn as snake. Because of pride and obduracy, one is reborn as lion. Because of arrogance & narcissism one is reborn in the wombs of donkeys and dogs. If miserly & discontented one creates rebirth as a monkey. If foulmouthed, faithless & shameless one is reborn as crow. Those flogging, chaining & injuring elephants, horses, & buffalos become spiders, scorpions, & stinging insects of cruel character. Those who are flesh-eating, angry, & fiery are reborn after death as tigers, jackals, cats, sharks, vultures, wolves & the like. Those who are generous givers, but angry & cruel become NÄ?gas = snake-demons of great iddhi -power... Any deliberate wrongdoing in thought, speech &/or action can produce rebirth as animal. Therefore should one shun all ever that is wrongdoing... Source (edited extract): PañcagatidÄ«panÄ« by Ashvaghosa & Saddhammaghosa: 11-12th century AC. Tr. by Ann A. Hazlewood. Journal of the PÄ?li Text Society. Vol. XI 1987: http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=132714 Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka * <...> #77132 From: "colette" Date: Sat Oct 6, 2007 2:56 am Subject: Re: Perfections Corner (15) ksheri3 Good Morng Tep, INCREDIBLE, but such is the case, if I may answer before Sarah I'll take the simple step of saying words issued by that Madhyamika creator himself, Nargarjuna: "Nothing comes into being, nor does anything disappear. Nothing is eternal, nor has anything an end. Nothing is identical, nor is anything differentiated. Nothing moves here, nor does anything move there." --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Hello Sarah (and Colette), - > > I have two no-nonsense questions to ask you in regard to the Buddhist > Mahayaana tradition ("those who follows it are called Maadhyamikas"). > > Wikipedia : > > According to the Maadhyamikas, all phenomena are empty of "self > nature" or "essence" (Sanskrit: Svabhaava), meaning that they have no > intrinsic, independent reality apart from the causes and conditions > from which they arise. > .... > S: In other words, only concepts, no realities, so only an > understanding of concepts is ever developed. > ............. > > Question 1. Do Maadhyamikas consider "concepts" in their Mahayaana > tradition? I think you cannot make the above deduction if the > term "concepts" is not their concern. colette: here you speak of concepts which is a concept. The ineffible cannot be spoken of properly and so we, in our illusionary world, try to place words onto the ineffible, the absolute, which do not apply nor give justice to that which cannot be described. The word "concept" is used, from my understanding, to simply define a condition in which something suffers an illusionary existance. Concepts themselves are completely created by us for our use but are like the dharma, they are empty. The realization of EMPTYNESS, SHUNYATA, IS THE OBJECTIVE. ---------------------------------- > > > Tep: The definition above suggests that the DSG Abhidhammikas are > > Maadhyamikas. But isn't that contradicting to Theravada? > .... > S: Yes, the views of the Madhymaaka as briefly summarised here are not > Theravada inc. Abhidhamma. > > If that's how they sound to you, we have a lot more work to do:-). > ........... > > Question 2. How are the DSG Abhidhammikas' views different from those > of the Maadhyamikas? > colette: now I'm stepping out of my field of knowledge and should allow Sarah to address this issue, however, since I have a few minutes, my understanding of the Abhidharma is a tool which is used to analyse the illusions we encounter. Followers of the Abhidharma, Abhidhammikas, would be bound by the Abhidharma and it's definitions thus would not have much of a relationship to the Madhyamikas who practice "THE DOCTRINE OF THE MIDDLE WAY" that is, that they view the two extremes of a dualistic illusion and negate them to accept of middle and higher course of actions. Mahayanism is a root of the Theravadan and is "THE GREATER VEHICLE" but that does not mean that Mahayanism is that which is carried, nor is it that which carries, it is a vehicle in the sense that it is a Path to follow through Samsara and assist in eleviating the suffering of Samsara. The Madhyamika is a choice between the extremes to illuminate SHUNYATA and therefore free an aspirant from the clinging of an extreme. If that helps any I haven't a clue, at 4:50 a.m. wow, what am I doing up? --------------------------------------------- > Whether or not we have "work to do" depends on how you answer > Question 2. colette: the second you think that you have NO WORK TO DO is the second that you know you've missed something and are libel to be losing your way through WRONG VIEWS. Good luck. Hopefully Sarah can answer your question better. I'm focusing on Dzogchen and Mahamudra right now with all this Tantra stuff so my small answer may only serve to confuse you. Again, good luck in your studies. toodles, colette #77133 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Sat Oct 6, 2007 5:04 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (68) nichiconn Dear Friends, 13. Viisatinipaato 3. Caapaatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa part 5 txt: So pabbajito satthu santike kamma.t.thaana.m gahetvaa bhaavana.m anuyu~njanto na cirasseva anaagaamiphale pati.t.thaaya kaala.m katvaa avihesu nibbatto, nibbattakkha.neyeva arahatta.m paapu.ni. Avihesu nibbattamattaa satta janaa arahatta.m pattaa, tesa.m aya.m a~n~nataro. RD: And he thereafter exercising and training himself, was soon established in the Fruition of the Path-of-No-Return, and thereupon died, being reborn in the Aviha heavens. *358 At the moment of that rebirth he attained Arahantship. Seven have thus attained it, as it has been said. *358 This ranked among the five 'topmost' heavens of the 'world of form,' or Brahma-world. See Buddh. Psy., p. 334; Diigha N., ii. 52. PRUITT: After going forth, he took a meditation subject from the Teacher, was diligent in his mental development, and in a very short time he was established in the fruition state of a Non-Returner. Then he died and was born in the Aviha realm.* At the very moment of his rebirth, he attained the state of Arahatship. Seven people have attained the state of Arahatship at the moment of rebirth in the Aviha realm. He was one of them. *One of the Pure Abodes (Suddhaavaasa) where only Non-Returners are born and attain Arahatship. txt: Vutta~nheta.m- "Aviha.m upapannaase, vimuttaa satta bhikkhavo; raagadosaparikkhii.naa, ti.n.naa loke visattika.m. "Upakopalaga.n.do ca, pakkusaati ca te tayo; bhaddiyo kha.n.dadevo ca, baahuraggi ca si"ngiyo; te hitvaa maanusa.m deha.m, dibbayoga.m upaccagun"ti. (Sa.m. ni. 1.105). Pruitt: For this has been said:* Seven bhikkhus were reborn in the Aviha realm and freed. With desire and hatred eliminated, they have gone beyond attachment to the world. Three of them were Upaka, Palaga.n.da, Pakkusaati; [the others were] Bhaddiya and Kha.n.dadeva and Baahuraggi [and] Si"ngiya. They abandoned the human body and went beyond to connection with the devas. *S I 35, 60 (KS I 48f). These verses were spoken by the deva Gha.tiikaara, who was a friend of the Bodhisatta at the time of Buddha Kassapa. The seven bhikkhus are said to have all lived in the same village as the Bodhisatta and the former Gha.tiikaara at that time (S I 35 [KS I 149). {The enumeration of the Buddha's virtues which was made to Upaka is not regarded as a real dhammadesaná because it took place before the preaching of the first sermon. It produced only a vásaná-bhágiya result, not sekha- or ribaddha-bhágiya (UdA.54). - www.palikanon.com/english/pali_names/u/upaka.htm } ===tbc, connie. #77134 From: "Sukinder" Date: Sat Oct 6, 2007 5:18 am Subject: Re: Asoka, Ch 6, no 6. sukinderpal Hi Sarah (and Dieter), ================== > Btw, Sukin, I visited Ven Nyanaponika not long after this episode with > K.Sujin and Nina in Sri Lanka at his hermitage. His understanding of > 'practice' was very different from ours, but we all paid sincere respects, > spent a while having polite talk without any controversial topics being > raised. I think we have to know what is appropriate. Friends of mine in > London were once told they were no longer welcome at a temple there > because they were heard talking to others about how the meditation (taught > by the bhikkhus at the temple) was wrong practice, as I recall! > > Just my un-called for, probably inappropriate, comments! Sukin: No, please don't think this way. Believe it or not, every time I post a message I do it with a feeling of being wrong about some thing, and expect to be corrected. Some think that my posts are well considered, but in reality, I never bother to think anything through. Though often I first write on paper and this allows for some correction while typing on the computer. It is not that I readily accept criticism; in fact here there were some strong though short lived, reactions such as to the thought of you being not quite on target etc. If anything, it is always good to observe such kind of reactions. This time there was also the following thought, "Why the need to defend? Why can't I appreciate the Dhamma lessons regardless of whether I'm right or wrong?" I also noticed how mana would arise and make one less receptive to others. And I concluded that it must be due to mana and ditthi that one is a "person, difficult to talk to". Besides just yesterday I commented to DC about Buddha vacana and the fact of `saying no' to the Buddha's teachings, does this not also apply in this case? ;-) So please don't hesitate to correct anything I say. Of course this does not mean that I'll never try to protect myself, right or wrong there are conditions to want to fight ;-). Metta, Sukin #77135 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Oct 6, 2007 5:54 am Subject: Re: An Introduction to Buddhism- 1 indriyabala Dear Scott, - I understand the purpose of this "interlude". But I won't be surprised if your next questions will come from the Abhidhamma commentaries. I hope you do not forget that my "Abhidhamma hat" is small. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Dear Tep, > > Thanks for the reply and the kind words. Before I plunge into your > last post, I think I'd like to know how you define 'dhamma'. I think > we are using the word in entirely different ways. I'm not sure that > the use of 'dhamma' within your full reply is actually correct > (although I might be wrong about that). I hope you don't mind this > brief, but important, interlude before a full reply. > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > T: Wrong + wrong cannot be equal to right. In my opinion 'dhammas' are the principles or ideas that the Buddha discovered; they are to be directly known. Knowledge(~naana) of the dhammas leads to the cessation of suffering(dukkha). The 'Dhamma' is the Buddha's teachings. Tep === #77136 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Oct 6, 2007 6:01 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Citta scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, I appreciate all the good detail here, thanks for the reply: S: "(Your ref. to Dsg.pp 84-85 should be to the Atth., btw, i.e the Dsg-A)." Scott: Thanks and sorry. More embarassing than an unpicked nose after a long, intimate conversation. "Vipaaka.m kammakilesehi citanti citta.m." Sarah: "I wonder if we can we modify the translation to say that vipaka is consciousness (citta) because it results from the accumulated kamma (and kilesa). I'm not sure we can refer to accumulated vipaka:-/??" Scott: I see what you mean. Wouldn't 'accumulated vipaaka' be a bit redundant? I'd hazard a guess that the process whereby kamma leads to vipaaka is something like 'accumulation' but not. "Fruits which have ripened; flowers which have bloomed," as U Naarada puts it. Me: "This is for 'accumulates'. I think it refers to kamma-paccaya and vipaaka-paccaya. Here I'd appreciate correction." Sarah: "I would say it refers to kamma (and kilesa) above, to the vitikkama kilesa (coarse defilements through body, speech and mind) as opposed to pariyutthana kilesa (medium defilements) or anusaya (latent tendencies, subtle defilements). The pariyutthana kilesa, don't have the same intensity to lead to akusala kamma-patha." Scott: Thanks for the above. It makes sense. This is a useful gradation to remember. By the way, can you give an example of what would be a 'coarse defilement through mind'? Sarah: "Because of the anusaya (latent tendencies), kilesa arise, manifest and accumulate all the time." Scott: Would this relate to root condition in some way? Me: "...So, this seems to refer to the link between kamma, and in particular kamma arising out of the kilesas, and vipaaka." Sarah: "I think it's referring to the kilesas at the degree of kamma-patha which bring about results." Scott: Got it. Sarah: "...when we read about the variegated (citra), such as 'consciousness with lust....hate....delusion' etc, I take the texts to be referring to the variegated nature of cittas themselves...the cittas themselves have different characteristics. Seeing is never hearing, for example." Scott: Thanks, yeah I was mixing that up. I was thinking citta was variegated because of the different combinations of conascent cetasikas with each arising. Here you clarify that it refers to the characteristic of citta in relation to object. Sincerely, Scott. #77137 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Oct 6, 2007 7:02 am Subject: Re: An Introduction to Buddhism- 1 scottduncan2 Dear Tep, Thanks for the clarification: T: "...In my opinion 'dhammas' are the principles or ideas that the Buddha discovered; they are to be directly known. Knowledge(~naana) of the dhammas leads to the cessation of suffering(dukkha). The 'Dhamma' is the Buddha's teachings." Scott: Yes, I thought this is the meaning you were operating from. We were talking at cross purposes. 'Dhamma' and 'dhamma' have two distinct meanings. There is that which was taught (Dhamma) and that which the teaching was about (dhamma). I mean dhamma in the broader sense. Bhikkhu ~Naa.namoli (Vism.VII, note 1,pp.769-770) gives his own neo-commentary. He clarifies the use of the word 'dhamma' "...as state, (more rarely [as] 'thing' or 'phenomenon'), while in its technical sense as one of the twelve bases or eighteen elements 'mental object' and 'mental datum' have been used." And this is the way in which I am using it: "...the word itself is a gerundive of the verb dharati (caus. dhaareti - 'to bear') and so is the literal equivalent of '(quality)' that is to be borne.' But since grammatical meanings of the two words dharati ('to bear') and dhahati ('to put or sort out', whence dhaatu - 'element') sometimes coalesce) it often comes very close to dhaatu...If it is asked, what bears the qualities to be borne?, a correct answer here would probably be that it is the event (samaya) as stated in Dhammasa"ngani...in which the various dhammas listed arise and are present, variously related to each other..." Scott: So, is my answer based on the Commentaries? Yes, I don't leave home without them. When you conflate the meanings of the Dhamma/dhamma, you make the error of thinking that concepts (principles or ideas) can be directly known. You mix up Dhamma - that which was taught - with dhamma - that to which the Teaching refers - and then you think that ~naa.na has concepts (the Teaching as ideas to be thought about) as object. This is how you can then think about stages of understanding because it seems to amount to a ladder of learning. Sincerely, Scott. #77138 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Oct 6, 2007 7:07 am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 197 and Tiika. nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 197 Intro. In this section more details are explained about the dhammas that are conditioned by kamma and vi~n~naa.na and the conditioned dhammas which are grouped as threefold: as just naama, as just ruupa and as the combination naama-ruupa. -------- Text Vis.197: 'By inclusion': now there is (a) the simple mentality with consciousness as condition in both the course of an existence and rebirth-linking in the immaterial sphere, and in the course of an existence in the five-constituent becoming, -------- N: In the aruupa-brahma planes there is only naama, not ruupa. Consciousness, vi~n~naa.na, conditions there just naama. In the planes where there are five khandhas, naama and ruupa, vi~n~naa.na conditions in the course of life naama, the conascent cetasikas. In section 200 it is explained that rebirth-linking or another kind of vipaakacitta is a condition in nine ways for naama that is vipaaka. ----------- Text Vis.: and (b) the simple materiality with consciousness as condition in both cases among the non-percipient, -------- N: In the plane of the non-percipient, the plane of the asa~n~naasattas, there is only ruupa, no naama. Here kamma produces only ruupa at rebirth. As will be explained in the following sections, That is why it is said that ruupa has kamma and vi~n~naa.na as condition. This is so ‘in both cases’, namely at rebirth and in the course of life. ----------- Text Vis.: and in the course of an existence in the five-constituent becoming, --------- N: In the planes where there are naama and ruupa, citta conditions ruupa in the course of life. The Tiika mentions that vi~n~naa.na, vipaakacitta, can condition ruupa by way of post-nascence-condition. The citta supports the ruupa that has arisen previously and that has not yet fallen away. ---------- Text Vis.: and (c) the [combined] mentality-materiality with consciousness as condition in both cases in the five-constituent becoming. ------- N: When taking into account vi~n~naa.na which conditions the combination naama-ruupa, this is to be applied in the planes where there are naama and ruupa, ‘in both cases’, that is, at the moment of rebirth and also in the course of life. The Tiika mentions that vi~n~naa.na conditions naama-ruupa by way of conascent-condition (sahajaata-paccaya.) Moreover, kamma and vi~n~naa.na are conditions for the combination of naama-ruupa and this can be applied as the case demands. --------- Text Vis.: All that mentality and materiality and mentality-materiality should be understood as 'mentality-materiality with consciousness as condition', including them under mentality-materiality according to the method that allows any one part to represent any remaining one of its kind. ------------ N: With regard to: < the method that allows any one part to represent any remaining one of its kind>, this means: (See Dispeller of Delusion, p. 210). --------- Conclusion: In giving different methods of the ways in which vi~n~naa.na conditions naama, ruupa and the combination naama-ruupa, it is emphasized that there isn’t any naama or ruupa that arises without the proper conditions. Even in the plane where there is no naama, only ruupa, this ruupa has conditions, namely the kamma- formation, abhisa”nkhaara, that arose in the past. The Tiika states that after the rebirth-consciousness has fallen away, in the course of life, other generating kammas produce ruupas. It also mentions ‘cessation’ (nirodha-samaapatti) that anaagaamis and arahats can attain. This is the suspension of citta and mind-produced ruupa. But ruupa produced by kamma, heat and nutrition still occur in the case of human beings who attain cessation. Thus, the classifications are complete and no possibility is left out. At the first moment of life kamma produces the rebirth- consciousness and ruupas, and in the course of life other kammas produce ruupas. Moreover, also citta, temperature and nutrition produce the ruupas of the body. Thus, after the first moment of life there are conditions for the continuation of life, and there will be conditions for the experience of sense-objects through the different doorways. This reminds us that our life is naama and ruupa, which arise because of their appropriate conditions. There is no person who could change these conditions. ******* Nina. #77139 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Oct 6, 2007 7:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Citta nilovg Dear Scott, > Op 6-okt-2007, om 15:01 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: > By the way, can you give an example of what > would be a 'coarse defilement through mind'? N: Very strong wrong view: there is no kamma, no vipaaka. Really being convinced of this. It is very dangerous. The intention to take away someone's possessions, thinking about it that one will do this. I used to think that vipaaka could be accumulated, but heard: no. Kamma produces vipaaka and then it is gone, all over. Only during the javana cittas there is accumulation of kusala or akusala. Mostly akusala, is it not? Even now we like seeing, feeling, living. Nina. #77140 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Oct 6, 2007 7:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: An Introduction to Buddhism- 1 nilovg Dear Scott, Op 6-okt-2007, om 16:02 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: Nanamoli: > "...the word itself is a gerundive of the verb dharati (caus. dhaareti > - 'to bear') and so is the literal equivalent of '(quality)' that is > to be borne.' But since grammatical meanings of the two words dharati > ('to bear') and dhahati ('to put or sort out', whence dhaatu - > 'element') sometimes coalesce) it often comes very close to > dhaatu...If it is asked, what bears the qualities to be borne?, a > correct answer here would probably be that it is the event (samaya) as > stated in Dhammasa"ngani...in which the various dhammas listed arise -------- N: Right, but his approach is somewhat theoretical. Dhamma bears its own characteristic and it is close in meaning to dhaatu. The Dhammasangani gives a list of all the sobhana cetasikas to begin with that assist kusala citta. The word samaya is used: on that occasion... It is actual and also due to a concurrence of conditions, as the Atthasalini explains samaya. They all have different characteristics. Dhammas with different characteristics, but let us think of this very moment, no theory. Seeing is quite different from thinking of a person we perceive. But when will this really sink in, I have trouble when looking at Lodewijk. However, 'my' ignorance and clinging have conditions to arise and I could not change what has arisen already. I need patience which is at times difficult. Nina. #77141 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Oct 6, 2007 7:59 am Subject: Conditions, Ch 16, no 7. nilovg Dear friends, As regards absence-condition, natthi-paccaya, we read in the “Patthåna” (Analytical Exposiiton, iI, 23): States, citta and cetasikas, which have just disappeared in contiguity, are related to present states, citta and cetasikas, by absence-condition. This condition is similar to proximity-condition, anantara-paccaya, and contiguity-condition, samanantara-condition. The citta which falls away conditions the arising of the next one by way of proximity- condition and contiguity-condition. However, the next citta can only arise when the preceding one has fallen away, when it is absent. Absence does not mean that the citta never was there; it has arisen and fallen away, and then it conditions the arising of the subsequent citta without any interval. There can only be one citta at a time which arises and then falls away, but there is a sucession of cittas from birth to death and then there is rebirth again. The cycle of birth and death continues until all defilements have been eradicated and one finally passes away. As regards the third pair of conditions, this is disappearance- condition, vigata-paccaya, and non-disappearance-condition, avigata- paccaya. Disappearance-condition is identical with absence-condition. Non-disappearance-condition is identical with presence-condition. Identical conditions have been given different names, “as an embellishment of teaching to suit the needs of those who are teachable”, the “Visuddhimagga” (XVII, 100) states. Disappearance-condition is the same as absence-condition, but the word disappearance helps us to understand that the absence of the conditioning dhamma does not mean that it never was. The preceding citta, which is the conditioning dhamma, has just disappeared and thus it can condition the arising of the subsequent citta, the conditioned dhamma, without any interval. If we do not learn about the different conditions under different aspects we may have misunderstandings about the moments of their arising and falling away. Non-disappearance-condition is the same as presence-condition. A dhamma which has not yet disappeared can, while it is still present, condition other dhammas. However, the conditioning dhamma cannot stay on, it has to disappear. Just as in the case of presence-condition, the conditioning dhamma can be prenascent, conascent or postnascent to the dhamma it conditions by way of non-disappearance-condition. ***** Nina. #77142 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Oct 6, 2007 8:05 am Subject: Asoka, Ch 7, no 4 nilovg Dear friends, Further on we read that he is called the Tathågata because he has awakened to real dhammas in accordance with actuality, because he is a seer of the real, because he is a speaker of the real, because he practises what he teaches and that he is called the Tathågata in the sense of surpassing. He surpasses all beings with regard to virtue and wisdom, he is unequalled. He is a speaker of what is real, because the whole contents of the Dhamma he taught, contained in the scriptures, is perfect in all its modes, irreproachable in meaning and in phrasing. He practises what he taught. Our actions should be in conformity with the Dhamma, we should apply the Dhamma in our daily life. We read in the “Mahå Parinibbåna Sutta” (Dígha Nikåya, no. 16) that the Buddha came to his last resting place, the Såla Grove of the Mallas and lay down between the twin Sal trees which dropped their blossoms in worship of the Buddha. Celestial coral-flowers and sandalwood powder rained down on his body and heavenly music could be heard, out of reverence for the Buddha. We read that the Buddha said to Ånanda [1] : Yet not thus, Ånanda, is the Tathågata respected, venerated, esteemed, worshipped and honoured in the highest degree. But Ånanda, whatsoever bhikkhu or bhikkhuní, layman or laywoman abides by the Dhamma, lives uprightly in the Dhamma, walks in the way of the Dhamma, it is by him that the Tathågata is respected, venerated, esteemed, worshipped and honoured in the highest degree. Therefore, Ånanda, “Abide by the Dhamma, live uprightly in the Dhamma, walk in the way of the Dhamma!”- thus should you train yourselves. During our journey we received many helpful reminders for the application of the Dhamma, from Khun Sujin and also by the example of our friends. One of them who practised generosity by offering tea to others at a small shop near the road, said that during this trip he gained more confidence in the Dhamma, and this happened to all of us. By listening to the discussions and considering what we heard understanding develops, and this is beneficial, even if there is just a little more understanding. I asked one of our friends after an exhausting day how he found the trip. He answered: “I receive something every day.” He found every day beneficial. Someone else was helping continuously, she never stopped. In the diningroom she peeled apples for others and did not mind that her own food became cold. Her example of truly non-stop helping in many ways impressed me. Thus, there were many opportunities for appreciation of other people’s kusala, which is a form of dåna, anumodana dåna. ------- 1. I am using the translation of B.P.S. Kandy, Wheel Publication no. 67- 69. ****** Nina. #77143 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Oct 6, 2007 8:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Re: Conditions, Ch 15, no 9. nilovg Dear Tep, I like your comment on the photo (nice picture) and the reminder that the ageing cannot be altered (it only gets worse every passing day). It gets worse each split second, but we do not see this. Op 6-okt-2007, om 1:46 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > Yes, I agree with you that being mindful to investigate any > seeing/hearing/tactile-sensing that is appearing now (one at a time) > is useful. However, I do not yet see how the suggested investigation > may by itself lead to the 'jaanam passam yathaabhuutam' in the > following sutta passage. > > "Bhikkhus, when one knows and sees the eye, forms, eye-consciousness, > eye-contact, and feelings that arises with eye-contact as condition, > as they actually are (jaanam passam yathaabhuutam), then one is not > inflamed by lust (na saarajjati) for them.[MN 149] ------- N: This cannot be so when pa~n~naa is still weak. When understanding becomes more firm and it knows that this dhamma is nama and this dhamma is rupa, not by saying this, but by directly knowing their different charactreistics, it can grow so that there will be pahana pari~n~na, but occurs in the course of the stages of insight. When we read this sutta we should remember that seeing things as they truly are and then abandoning attachment to objects is the result of a long, long way of being aware of nama and rupa again and again, in daily life. Never tiring of this, inspite of ups and downs. Ups and downs, that is the way it is. Nina. #77144 From: Dieter Möller Date: Sat Oct 6, 2007 9:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Asoka, Ch 6, no 6. moellerdieter Dear Tep (and Sarah), you wrote: 'T: Isn't that neglect an ignorance that associates with a conceit? I think when we are mindful of our own avijja (in the sense of lacking insight into the sutta being discussed) and maana (fear of losing face), perhaps we may become a little more considerate of the other party' D: yes, a good intention , I agree .. (and if it doesn't work so well yet in practise, one may find a bit of comfort by remembering that it is said: only the Arahant is fully liberated from the fetter of conceit ;-) ) T: I know of a number of householders who think it is their "duty" to monitor/evaluate monks' conforming to the Dhamma-vinaya. D: I think we must see that in context of the situation, do you mean people acting like being a kind of moral police? Otherwise the laity should have an 'eye ' on the Sangha, finally it is them who take care for the base requisites. T: You are right that we householders are not qualified to judge a monk; it is a duty of the abbot of the monastery. But if I am correct, then who eveluates the abbot's Dhamma-vinaya? D: the Vinaya rules up to the last detail , what procedure has too be taken. How consequent these rules are applied may be different from Abott to Abott, but there is a clear hierarchy up to the Supreme Patriarch, though sometimes difficult to understand from outside of the Order. T: ( 3) S: Friends of mine in London were once told they were no longer welcome at a temple there because they were heard talking to others about how the meditation (taught by the bhikkhus at the temple) was wrong practice, as I recall!) T: If I were a monk in that temple, I would be glad for the chance to discuss with your friends how the meditation practice there should be improved. Again, it was a problem of 'fear of losing face'. D: come on, Tep..it is impolite, to say it nicely, to tell students of a class you are not belonging too, that their teacher is wrong all along. The least they could have done , to talk to the bhikkhus and explain to them why they considered it to be a wrong practise...perhaps they would have learnt something . a nice reminder of what we talk about at the beginning of the message , isn't it? ;-) with Metta Dieter #77145 From: "Alex" Date: Sat Oct 6, 2007 9:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Views, Ontology, Philosophy of Buddha as it appears to me. truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > .... > S: You included several suttas to rightly indicate that all dhammas are anatta. In the context of my comments, sabhava was however referring to the characteristics of dhammas, not any attribute of atta. >>>>>>>>>>>> So in Theravada Abhidhamma Sabhava is a QUALITY rather than a self existing atomic particle? THis issue has confused me since I've read a lot of critique of svabhava that is misdefined as some sort of self existing "atom" which of course from Buddhist (Correct) perspective is impossible. SO I need to search for Scroll down to: > 1. Sabhava > 2. Haddaya vatthu (or it may be under 'Heart') > 3. Vinnana - anidassanam > 4. Udana -nibbana > > All these different namas and rupas have characteristics, but all are anatta, conditioned dhammas. > .... > > Even though Eye and lets say smell consiousness appear different, they appear in the MIND, dependent ON the mind, dependent on > conditions. > ... > S: What do you mean by MIND here? Do you mean citta? If so, how can the rupa, eye-base appear in the citta? What does it mean to say smell > consciousness (citta) appears in the MIND? > .... > >It is mind that sorts out the sense data, without the > > mind 5 senses would not function. > ... > S: Here you mean through the mind-door as a mind-door process as opposed > to through the sense-door. OK, above, I read you to be saying that > eye-base and smell consciousness can only be known in the mind-door > process which is dependent on heart-base, rather than eye-base. Yes, all > conditioned dhammas depend on conditions. > Please forgive me for not being clear about eye and smell. I should have said eye consiousness and smell consiousness are both dependent on the mind (6th sense, thoughts, consious volitions) . If there were NO mind, there would be no way to sort (sense data) them out. A "being" with 5 senses but no mind is not really sentient and for it the different qualities are not distinguishable. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > As for the discussion you're having on the bodhisatta already being a > sakadagami, that's a new one to me! If this were so, he'd be a savaka of Buddha Kassapa or whichever one it was when he gained such insights. He wouldn't be a an all-enlightened Buddha who had attained to sammaa-sambodhi. Also, we read a lot about his various previous lives. I think this would have been mentioned, don't you? >>>>>> First of all this was NOT my idea. There was entire early Buddhist sect that believed this. Since Buddha has enlightened after recollecting his former lives (including perhaps the teachings of Buddha Kassapa) and lives of other beings it is not impossible that his path really started from Buddha Kassapa. However Buddha has developed a lot of panna AND experience by himself, this is one of the reasons that He: a) Left the house (obviously he had less lust, and that couldn't hold him) b) refused to settle with Alara Kalama and Udakka Ramaputta c) Refused to starve to death. d) Became 'self' enlightened, an Arahant. In fact if we examine the historical tendencies then we will see that as time went on Buddha was more and more deitified. At first he was an Arahant... Then he became a Mahayana-like Bodhisattva... Then he was never unenlightened, he just pretended to be... etc etc... > > Keep bringing up controversial topics and discussing Dhamma, Alex! When you seriously get into the Abhidhamma, you'll love it! >>> Other than Abhidhamma Sangaha (by Bhikkhu Bodhi), which are good Eng books on Abhidhamma? Thank you very much, Lots of Metta, Alex #77146 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Sat Oct 6, 2007 9:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: An Introduction to Buddhism- 1 dcwijeratna Dear Tep, I observed that there is a discussion going on withing the Group reagarding the meaning of 'Dhammaa'. The reference I gave is a discusion on that. If you glance through that you might get some ideas. With mettaa, D. G. D. C. Wijeratna #77147 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Sat Oct 6, 2007 9:54 am Subject: pa~n~naa dcwijeratna Dear Alex, I accidentally deleted your message on the above topic--if I am not mistaken--while trying to clean up my inbox. The dictionary meaning is wisdom. A vague term. What I have observed in the Sutta Pi.taka it has a number of meanings. And on many places it is used as a shorthand for: pa~n~nakkhandha, pa~n~naa sampadaa, pa~n~nindriya etc. Sometimes it is also used for the instrumental pa~n~naaya. However, it appears that there is a meaning that runs through all these. That is pa~n~naa as a faculty of the mind is its ability discriminate: usually the right from wrong, or the true from the false, or the dhamma from adhamma. With mettaa, D. G. D. C. Wijeratna #77148 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Oct 6, 2007 10:11 am Subject: Re: An Introduction to Buddhism- 1 indriyabala Dear Scott, - I had no idea that my reply to you about what I understand dhammas & Dhamma would cause another quickly jumping to conclusion. > > Scott: So, is my answer based on the Commentaries? Yes, I don't leave > home without them. When you conflate the meanings of the > Dhamma/dhamma, you make the error of thinking that concepts > (principles or ideas) can be directly known. You mix up Dhamma - that > which was taught - with dhamma - that to which the Teaching refers - > and then you think that ~naa.na has concepts (the Teaching as ideas to > be thought about) as object. This is how you can then think about > stages of understanding because it seems to amount to a ladder of > learning. > Your opinion has made it difficult, very difficult for me to continue the discussion with you, Scott. Tep === #77149 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Oct 6, 2007 10:20 am Subject: Re: An Introduction to Buddhism- 1 scottduncan2 Dear Tep, Thanks for the reply: T: "Your opinion has made it difficult, very difficult for me to continue the discussion with you, Scott." Scott: Please try to continue. Our opinions merely differ. Can we not further work out our own views? This is just discussion. If you wish to elaborate on what the difficulty seems to be I'd be happy to address this (for a time and then back to discussing...) Sincerely, Scott. #77150 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Oct 6, 2007 10:37 am Subject: Re: Perfections Corner (15) indriyabala Dear Colette, - I am happy to read your CREDIBLE description of the key Mahayana principle. You have done a very GOOD job. Colette: >Nargarjuna: "Nothing comes into being, nor does anything disappear. Nothing is eternal, nor has anything an end. Nothing is identical, nor is anything differentiated. Nothing moves here, nor does anything move there." This prelude to the other explanantions (repeated below) make it clear what Shunyata (emptiness) means. -- C: Followers of the Abhidharma, Abhidhammikas, would be bound by the Abhidharma and it's definitions thus would not have much of a relationship to the Madhyamikas who practice "THE DOCTRINE OF THE MIDDLE WAY" that is, that they view the two extremes of a dualistic illusion and negate them to accept of middle and higher course of actions. -- C: Mahayanism is a root of the Theravadan and is "THE GREATER VEHICLE" but that does not mean that Mahayanism is that which is carried, nor is it that which carries, it is a vehicle in the sense that it is a Path to follow through Samsara and assist in elevating the suffering of Samsara. The Madhyamika is a choice between the extremes to illuminate SHUNYATA and therefore free an aspirant from the clinging of an extreme. ........... Thank you. Tep === #77151 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Oct 6, 2007 10:51 am Subject: [dsg] Re: An Introduction to Buddhism- 1 indriyabala Dear DC (and Scott), - I am not sure about the "reference" that you mentioned. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, DC Wijeratna wrote: > > Dear Tep, > > I observed that there is a discussion going on withing the Group reagarding the meaning of 'Dhammaa'. The reference I gave is a discusion on that. If you glance through that you might get some ideas. > > With mettaa, > > D. G. D. C. Wijeratna > T: Where shall I find that reference, DC ? Tep === #77152 From: "Alex" Date: Sat Oct 6, 2007 11:13 am Subject: Re: Perfections Corner (15) truth_aerator Hi Collete, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "colette" wrote: I'll > take the simple step of saying words issued by that Madhyamika > creator himself, Nargarjuna: > > "Nothing comes into being, nor does anything disappear. Nothing is > eternal, nor has anything an end. Nothing is identical, nor is > anything differentiated. Nothing moves here, nor does anything move > there." >>>>>>>>> Could you please explain that phrase? How is it different from nihilism? That phrase seems uncomfortably close to certain wrong views of certain Indian ascetics. "And what is wrong view? 'There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed. There is no fruit or result of good or bad actions. There is no this world, no next world, no mother, no father, no spontaneously reborn beings; no priests or contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is wrong view." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.117.than.html#micchaditthi Thanks, Lots of Metta, Alex #77153 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Sat Oct 6, 2007 11:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Puggala pa~n~natti dcwijeratna Dear Tep, Thank you for your e-m. Here are my comments on some points you have raised; ======================== T: Friend DC, I am not capable of judging your reply with respect to "critical thinking". So let me give you my best two-rupee response to the simple issues, and leave other difficult stuffs to the more qualified members. DC: "suvaco cassa mudu anatimaanii" From "Karaniiya metta sutta". These are some of the qualities that a practitioner of mettaa should possess. ========================= T: I think what you explain above says that 'name' can mean either a title/label of an object/being or its state (properties) . So when we say 'ruupa', it may be mean a label for ruupa-khandha or a dhamma that is a state of the body (e.g. a body posture). Is that thought acceptable? DC: Yes Tep, that is what I am getting at. Isn't "ruupa" or "naama" another designation we give. I have absolutely no clue to what it is. ========================== T: You have clarified your position quite well, DC. What is so important about a name (as a label) anyway? Sometimes, people are overly concerned with their created names, conventions, defintions, languages, theories, etc. Other people think they can "get away" from man-made concepts and thus they seek a shelter in the Abhidhamma. But some of them in my opinion may still carry along the convention- creating habit with them and thus may not be able to truly see the ultimate dhammas because of the habit entanglement. DC: What are ultimate dhammas? Isn't it a name that they given to the unkown? ========================== T: Thank you very much for giving your translation for the Pali text, otherwise I'd be lost. But, frankly, to be even more useful I'd suggest that you explain other Pali terms too (e.g. ahaatabba.m, bhaavetabba. m, and bhaavita.m). DC: pahaatabbam: It comes from the verb 'pajahati' which means: gives up; renounces; forsakes; abandons. So pahatabba.m is: what should be removed, given up etc. bhaavetabba.m: it comes from the word 'bhaaveti' which means: increases; cultivates; develops. So bhaavetabba.m means what should be developed or cultivated or even grown. bhaavita.m: this is the past participle of bhaaveti and means had been developed or cultivated. It is completed past action. This word 'bhaavanaa' comes from this. According to Dhammacakkappavattana sutta what should be developed or cultivated is the Fourth Noble Truth-The Noble Eightfold Path. But lot of people think it is meditation. ============================================ >T: So you say that 'abhi~n~naaya sacchikatvaa' means realization through abhi~n~naa, which means higher knowing. Does the "realization" require both samatha and vipassana? I believe it does. My next question is : are there other ways to realize the truths (ariya-sacca) , i.e. become enlightened at least at the Sotapanna level, without "abhi~n~naa" ? It is confusing because you say sacchikatvaa is not "confined" to ariyans. DC: Ref. first question Yes, both Samatha and Vipassanaa are required for "realization". You cannot develop one without the other. (A venerable bhikkhu--I forget who-- once compared it to the two sides of the hand.) In the duka nipaata of the AN the phrase "samatho ca vipassanaa ca" occurs twenty three times. It is in answer to the question What are the two dhammas that should be developed for "realization". In DN I, for example Saama~n~naphala sutta, it is prescribed that samatha should be first developed to the fourth jhaana level and vipassanaa comes thereafter. According to the Suttas, it is necessary to develop the mind first by samatha, when all the kilesas are temporarily gone from the mind then the mind is suitable for vipassana. You can see (passati jaanati) only from such a developed mind. I hope I have made myself clear. If not please revert. This is what the sutta pi.taka say. I haven't come across anything to the contrary. DC: Ref. second question The short answer is no. The only path is the Noble Eightfold Path. Enlightenment is "Bodhi" and that is arahanthood. Sotapanna is just the entry to the ariyan Path. For that also there is only one way. The Noble eightfoldpath. When you become a sotapanna, you have to give up vicikicchaa etc. That means you have absolutely no doubt about the Dhamma or the Noble Eightfold Path. Regarding "sacchikatvaa is not confined to ariyans", I must have made a mistake, I am very sorry. What I wanted to say is abhi~n~na is not confined to ariyans. ============================================== >T: I agree with you, DC, that samma-samaadhi (supported by the other seven factors) is necessary for the Four Noble Truths penetration. But there are several discussions (here and other places) about the true meaning of samma-samaadhi and whether it is required for Stream- entry (i.e fruition of Sotapatti). What's your thought on this? DC: Sammaa samaadhi is required for Sotapatti. There is no question. According to the teaching of the Buddha, there is only one path. That is the Noble Eightfold Path. You cannot travel that path only parts. You nedd to develop all eight limbs (angas). ================================================= >T: Let me leave the definition task to you, if you don't mind. DC: Ok, Tep. One cannot define Truth without definining knowledge. These go together. One of the oldest definitions of knowledge is due to Plato. It is called the theory of Justified True Belief or JTB theory for short. It is simple: If a true belief is justified or verified then it becomes knowledge. This is the basis of all science. Tep, I am not trying to be philosophically strict here. A flaw in this theory has been discovered in 1964 by a University professor called Gettier. It is now called the Gettiers problem. But that is still in the Univerisity philosophy departments. Now the Buddhas definition of knowledge is 'Yathaa-bhuuta ~na.na dassana" "knowledge of things that comes to be. And most importantly that comes through direct perception with our (human) perceptive apparatus. I propose that we adopt that as the definition of truth and knowledge. If any body wishes to have a different defintion then it is up to it (he/she) to show that it is a rational decision. Ok. Let's have some fund. The Buddhas sole aim was to make everybody happy and contented. With lots of metta, Tep D. G. D. C. Wijeratna P.S The references to the suttas are basically from memory. If you need the exact references I'll send them. I have done it simply to save time. Hope you won't mind. #77154 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Sat Oct 6, 2007 11:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: An Introduction to Buddhism- 1 dcwijeratna Dear Tep, It is the Dhamma Theory by Y. Karunadasa. It can be downloaded from many sites. Go to Google and search for Dhamma Theory Karunadasa. Umpteen number of websites will come up. Download it from any place you like. (Accesstoinsight) D. G. D. C. Wijeratna #77155 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Oct 6, 2007 11:56 am Subject: Re: "there is no ‘person’" - "The controversy on ‘person’ is ended" indriyabala Hi Sarah, - Thank you for paying good attention (like a Moderator should) to some of my thoughts on atta/anatta. > Sarah: > 1. You mentioned that 'The right view based on "not-self" therefore avoids dukkha by dropping ditthi-samyojana (fetter of view). > > I'd just say we have to discuss further what is meant by dukkha here. In the absolute sense (the sense of the 4NT), all conditioned dhammas are dukkha. Even the Buddha could therefore not avoid dukkha until parinibbana. > T: My statement above is inspired by Nanamoli Bhikkhu's "Anattaa According to the Theravaada". It is possible that my statement is too short to be clear, so let the following relevant paragraphs do the job for me. >Nanamoli: All these rationalized views (ditthi) stem from uncritical acceptance or overlooking of an underlying tendency (anusaya), or fetter (samyojana) — a natural predisposition — to regard, to identify, some aspect or other, in the situation of perceiving a percept, as "this is mine" or "this is what I am" or "this is my self" (e.g. MN 22). >These two levels — the self-view and the I-sense — are respectively what are called the "(lower or immediate) fetter of views" (di.t.thi- sa"myo jana) and the "(higher or remoter) fetter of conceit" (maana- sa"myo jana). The first is abandoned with the attainment of the first stage of realization (the path of stream-entry) while the second is abandoned only with the fourth and final stage (the path of arahantship: see DN 33). It may be noted here in parenthesis that the rendering of maana by "pride," though not wrong, severs the semantic relationship with ma~n~nati and ma~n~nanaa, which it is most important to preserve intact for the understanding of this situation. [endquote] ................. S: > 2. I had mentioned that when there is no understanding that it is visible object which appears, there is bound to be an idea of atta. The same for the other senses. Likewise when there's no understanding that it's seeing consciousness which experiences/is the experiencing of visible object, there is an idea of atta. > > You wrote: "I do not understand your motivation. Why do you think of these two cases of non-visible object and seeing consciousness as atta?" > > S: Simply, when we don't appreciate that only visible object is seen, there's an idea that it is computers, lamps and people that are seen, for example. This is atta-belief, wrong understanding of realities. Similarly, when we think that 'we' see objects, there is an idea of atta. Note: none of this has anything to do with the worldly language and designations we use. It doesn't mean we stop addressing each other as Tep and Sarah because there is a growth in understanding! Similarly, in answer to another qu. of yours in the same post, the Buddha continued to address his disciples such as Sariputta and listeners by name. No misunderstanding involved. > T: It does not occur to me that way, Sarah, that it is always atta- ditthi when I see a computer as computer, a dog as dog, and a lamp as lamp. Every time a visible object is seen by me there is no thought : 'that is mine' or 'that is my atta'. Only when there is craving/clinging on a sense object, then there is an idea that, for instance, it is desirable and I want it, or this is my computer and I don't want you to use it without my permission, etc. I address you as 'Sarah' because I know there is a person on the other end of the communication signal who is known as Sarah Proctor Abbott among her friends (yes, her friends are also real). And, believe me, there is no tanha, ditthi, or mana in me even a tiny bit whenever I type 'Dear Sarah,'. Hence I believe there is no miccha- ditthi or upadana that will lead to 'dukkha' as a vipaka just because I do not see 'no Sarah, no Tep, no computer' like you do. ....... S: > I hope others will pursue any of these topics while I'm away, which I hope you'll continue to respond to. > T: Whether your hope will materialize or not depends on several uncontrollable factors or conditions, Sarah. One of which is these 'others' exist. ;-) Tep === #77156 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Oct 6, 2007 12:48 pm Subject: [dsg] Q. Re: Conditions, Ch 15, no 9. indriyabala Dear Nina, - >Nina: > I like your comment on the photo (nice picture) and the reminder that the ageing cannot be altered (it only gets worse every passing day). It gets worse each split second, but we do not see this. T: True ! But even if I can see that "ageing cannot be altered, it only gets worse; and as such, it is dukkha" only three times a day (when I wake up, once during a day, and before going to sleep at night) it is good enough for me. .............. > Op 6-okt-2007, om 1:46 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > > >Tep: However, I do not yet see how the suggested investigation > > may by itself lead to the 'jaanam passam yathaabhuutam' in the > > following sutta passage. > > > > "Bhikkhus, when one knows and sees the eye, forms, eye- consciousness, eye-contact, and feelings that arises with eye-contact as condition, as they actually are (jaanam passam yathaabhuutam), then one is not inflamed by lust (na saarajjati) for them.[MN 149] > ------- > N: This cannot be so when pa~n~naa is still weak. When understanding becomes more firm and it knows that this dhamma is nama and this dhamma is rupa, not by saying this, but by directly knowing their different charactreistics, it can grow so that there will be pahana pari~n~na, but occurs in the course of the stages of insight. T: Yes, I have no doubt that we have to have direct knowing (not just by chanting the sutta over and over, by listening to a dhamma tape, or by reciting the Pali text 15 times a day in front of a Buddha statue). > N: When we read this sutta we should remember that seeing things as they truly are and then abandoning attachment to objects is the result of a long, long way of being aware of nama and rupa again and again, in daily life. Never tiring of this, inspite of ups and downs. Ups and downs, that is the way it is. T: Do you mean the investigation (pariyatti) of the naama and ruupa all by itself (as explained in your earlier post), when it is repeated over several long years, will be sufficient to eventually realize the 'direct knowing' of sensed objects in the present moment? It sounds like an over-simplification of the Teachings to me. Or, maybe I have missed something important here. Please advise. Tep === #77157 From: "colette" Date: Sat Oct 6, 2007 11:24 am Subject: Re: Perfections Corner (15) ksheri3 Hi Tep, Wow, I'm honored to have such a spectacular review of something that I didn't even think I understood when and after I wrote it and still ponder it's applicability. For instance I went to bed after writing that and layed there thinking how ambiguous I was and how I could have done a better job at explaning that dharmas are dependent on other dharmas for their applicability, that EVERYTHING IS DEPENDENT AND PART OF DEPENDENT ORIGINATION, as the means to better distinguish SHUNYATA. Again, I come up underestimating my peers' ability to understand my poor usage of language and am overwhelmed that you found some assistance in reducing the suffering of ignorance. THANK YOU. Keep at though, because I know that I am as lost as a babe in swaddling clothes. But then again I'm tackling these insanities called Tantras, Dzogchen, Mahamudra, etc. and only took up that bit on Mahyamikas as a diversion from the monotony because there was a time that I was completely stumped for about 6 months by one of the first pieces I read about the Madhyamkika, something about "soteriology" whatever that is. When I finally broke into the actual psychology of the paper I felt very proud and very confident, thus I tackled persons such as Nargajuna, Bahbaveika, (spelling terribly wrong), et al. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Dear Colette, - > > I am happy to read your CREDIBLE description of the key Mahayana > principle. You have done a very GOOD job. > #77158 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Oct 6, 2007 1:46 pm Subject: Re: Puggala pa~n~natti indriyabala Dear DC, - At the ned of your reply you wrote : "P.S The references to the suttas are basically from memory. If you need the exact references I'll send them. I have done it simply to save time. Hope you won't mind." T: I am not picky, DC. So I don't mind at all when you talk about the sutta from memory. As a matter of fact, I have seen most of your sutta references. ......... DC: Now the Buddhas definition of knowledge is 'Yathaa-bhuuta ~na.na dassana" "knowledge of things that comes to be. And most importantly that comes through direct perception with our (human) perceptive apparatus. I propose that we adopt that as the definition of truth and knowledge. T: No objection, friend. You've got to do what you think is right. IMO one has to establish a system of definitions and assumptions first befores/he can formulate a proposition. BTW The Patisambhidamagga gives a treatise on knowledge(~naana) that consists of 73 kinds of knowledges. None of them is called 'Yathaa- bhuuta ~na.na'. The closest one is "knowledge of purity in seeing" -- dassanavisuddhi~nana. 'Yathaa-bhuuta ~na.na', however, is listed as one of the 18 principal insights. .......... DC: Sammaa samaadhi is required for Sotapatti. There is no question. According to the teaching of the Buddha, there is only one path. That is the Noble Eightfold Path. You cannot travel that path only parts. You nedd to develop all eight limbs (angas). T: Sammaa samaadhi is defined as the four ruupa-jhaana, for example : MN 141: "And what is right concentration? There is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities — enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. With the fading of rapture, he remains in equanimity, is mindful & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is called right concentration." T: So, my question again is : Are the four ruupa jhaanas necessary for Stream-entry? Hint: even in the suttas the Sotapatti factors do not include jhaanas. Thank you very much. Tep === #77159 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Oct 6, 2007 3:47 pm Subject: Re: An Introduction to Buddhism- 1 indriyabala Dear Scott (and Sarah),- You kindly asked : Scott: Please try to continue. Our opinions merely differ. Can we not further work out our own views? This is just discussion. If you wish to elaborate on what the difficulty seems to be I'd be happy to address this (for a time and then back to discussing...) T: Yes, of course. I cannot agree more with you that "this is just a discussion", pure dhammas, and no individual views are allowed !! [Realizing the truth that Scott and Tep are real in each continuing moment, so that we are mindful to adhere to right speech all the time and abstain from harsh words.] Thank you for encouraging me to elaborate the "difficulty". Let's begin with the last post of yours : >Scott: >So, is my answer based on the Commentaries? Yes, I don't leave home without them. When you conflate the meanings of the Dhamma/dhamma, you make the error of thinking that concepts (principles or ideas) can be directly known. You mix up Dhamma - that which was taught - with dhamma - that to which the Teaching refers - and then you think that ~naa.na has concepts (the Teaching as ideas to be thought about) as object. This is how you can then think about stages of understanding because it seems to amount to a ladder of learning. T: No error has been made, Scott. I am not confusing the principles (dhammas) with the teachings(Dhamma) of the dhammas. It takes a careful and investigative attitude to go beyond the commentaries and books, whose authors are non-ariyans, back to the Tipitaka. Otherwise, meaning(attha), expression(vya~njana), and language (nirutti) may get entangled with the original principles(dhammas) taught by the Buddha and the arahants. Take the Patisambhidamagga of the Arahant Sariputta as an example. In the book there are 201 dhammas to be "directly known" and you might think they are all ultimate realities. Look closer, you'll see ten kasinas and the 32 body parts. What do you think of them, aren't they concepts? But if you asked Sarah, she would quickly say that they are 'cittas' and , therefore, they are ultimate realities. But that is a tricky answer. The fact of the matter is that, for example, earth kasina is a round object made from clay that is used for samatha bhavanaa. Blue kasina is not a "blue citta", there is no such a thing in the abhidhamma Pitaka. 72-81. The earth kasina is to be directly known. The water kasina is to be directly known. The air kasina, ..., athe blue kasina..., ... The consciousness kasina is to be directly known. [10 kasinas] 82-113. Head hairs are to be directly known, body-hairs ..., teeth ..., ... ..., urine ..., brain are to be directly known. [32 body parts] Patism I, 5, page 11 (hard-cover, 1982) T: DSG Abhidhammikas in the past said affirmatively, and some still do now, that breaths are concepts which cannot be used as objects of the citta for pa~n~na development. They were wrong because they strictly followed some misleading commentaries. Each rung of the 'ladder of learning/mental-development' represents a dhamma that arises because of a nutriment/condition (another dhamma) at the lower level of realization. Higher understandings (higher rungs of the learning/mental-development ladder) arise because of the ~naanas that arise after concentration(samma samadhi). The best discussion environment that is conducive to mutual learning and joy(gladness, paamojja) must be supported by mutual respect and trust. If you think of Tep as a "mixed-up" outsider, then it is very difficult for us to continue to discuss anything (let alone discussing the dhammas or Dhamma). Tep === #77160 From: "vipassana_infonet" Date: Sat Oct 6, 2007 6:19 pm Subject: dhamma questions vipassana_in... respected members of dsg, please accept my regards and greetings. I am a vipassana meditator in the goenkaji tradition for the last 10 years and I have been researching buddha's teachings also. recently, I started the study of abhidhamma ... I shall be grateful if you would be kind enough to answer my many questions and forgive my ignorance. many many thanks. 1) am I right if I understand that a) becoming an observer (just observing - passana) and not becoming a 'doer' b) observing vedana with the understanding of anicca i.e. - changing the sanna to anicca sanna (VI- passana) eradicates old sankhara as per a) "sankhara paccaya vinnana" b) navanca kammam na karoti puranca kammam phussa phussa vyayanti karoti (AN, nigantha sutta)? 2) if mara creates so much trouble - will be go to niraya hells due to his karma? 3) are the jatakas to be accepted as historically accurate and part of the original mula tipitaka or should we take them as commentaries / later additions...are tales like the bodhisatta was once a plum tree on the edge of a cliff - acceptable to dhamma doctrine? is this plum tree tale in the original version? in once birth the bodhisatta was said to be hindu god RAMA. is this correct or was it added later? 4)I used the VRI chatta-sangayana CD and found that buddha lists only 3 items under samma-kammanto. even in satipatthana, dhammanupassana, magga sacca pabbam - it is so. so am I to understand that not taking intoxicants is part of panca-sila but, not a part of samma-kammanto? so not taking intoxicants does not form part of the main ariyo-attahgiko-maggo? is it so? sounds strange to me. 5) did buddha specifically mention not to take tobacco or list it under the list of intoxicants not to be taken? or is only (types of) alcohol prohibited? 6)buddha was surely a super scientist (ariya sacca gavesi). however, I find things like a peacock taking 3 gems (mora paritta) unscientific and unacceptable. again, in candima and suriya paritta - rahu (seems to be - but, not specifically mentioned) the cause of eclipses. this is again un-scientific. 7) buddha in acinteyyo - lists lokacinta as acinteyyo. he also tells malukyaputta so. but, in agganna sutta - he goes in a lot of detail. is it not contradictory statements? 8) ven narada in his book of abhidhamma - lists plants as having "some sort of rupa jivitindriya". now, buddha did not regards plants having 5 khandas and as such they are not being. but, surely plants are living as per botany and as per the findings of jagdish chandra bose. even ven. narada does not say that plants are non-living and just due to 'utu' (heat). j c bose showed (with instruments) that plants can even "sense" and "remember" and "recognize" a murderer or one who had destroyed another plant... is it not like sanna and sankhara? again, how can jivitindriya (a cetasika) exist without all other members of 5 khandas (as per sampayutta paccayo)? so aren't plants a living being? 9) questions about nibbana experience (particularly FOR SOTAPATTI MAGGA citta-vithi) respected - nina van gorkom mentions is her GREAT book that nibbana is a unconditioned object that is sensed by the mind door. = so am I right if I understand that nibbana is still within the sphere of mind-matter, still within the sphere of anicca as although the 5 senses are not working but, the mano vithi is still on (and even if lokuttara - the lokuttara citta and cetasika are all anicca - as nina says in a post and in her book)? or when some dhamma teacher mentions that nibbana is beyond mind-matter - should I understand that he is referring just to nibbana - which is an unconditioned paramattha object and thus not part of nama-rupa - and that the teacher is not referring to the experience of nibbana in the mano citta vithi? = can the 5 senses and their processes be said to be in nirodha state in nibbana for sotapanna? what about anagamis and arahats who have not done the arupa-jhanas and thus cannot go into cessation (nirodha)- do they see nirodha of 5/6 senses? = what is the nature of nibbana as an object? if it does not "exist" like rupa or citta or cetasika - how does the mind-door sense it? = isn't lokuttara citta anicca? so is nibbana within the field of udaya-vyaya (anicca)? = does the contact of nibbana with the sotapatti lokuttara magga citta at mind-door lead to vedana (as per phass paccaya vedana)AND does the contact of nibbana with the lokuttara PHALA citta at mind door lead to vedana? so, is nibbana still within field of vedana and not beyond vedana (vedanakhyaya)? is nibbana still within phass paccaya vedana field? = do different types of vedanas happen in case of the different sotapatti phala lokuttara cittas (as per different jhana stages) when the meditator is in phala-samapatti? = in case of sotapatti magga the 3 virati cetasika arise togehther. is the sanna - nirodh sanna? what does the sanna sense? = do these virati cetasikas make any sankhara or do they not because this is with panna? is there a vipaka of the phala citta? = if no sankharas are made at the stage of phala citta vithi - then how does the lokuttata citta sustain itself? as per sankhara paccaya vinnana - the lokuttara citta needs some sankharas to keep going. what is the source of this sankhara.how does the lokuttara magga citta sustain itself even during extended periods of phala samapatti? = during complete cessation (nirodha) of anagami and arahat, is their any difference between living and dead person? 10) when their is no NEW input from 5 senses - the manovinnana can still roll in thoughts. what is the object that it taken then? is the mano taking the old sankharas (generated at level of the 5 senses) at the bhavanga door as arammana? 11)nina says that only 1 citta arises at a time and it can grasp only 1 object. so how do the many organs of the body work? it seems that there is only 1 vinnana that makes the so many organs of the body work - kayavinnana - so how do so many objects work together with 1 vinnana? when I am watching kaya vedana (as anicca) and the kaya-vinnana is busy with this photabba feeling of anicca - are all the inner body organs not working? and if they are - is my knowing of sampajanna at level of kaya vedana not continuous and the kaya-vinnana actually goes inside body to respond to the organs.... 12)how is the sanna-khanda able to 'memorize' or perceive or evaluate anything without the aid of sankhara-khanda? or is it that the sanna and sankhara work together? once a dhamma-teacher told me that sanna means "samyutta jnana" [sanskrit] i.e. compound wisdom or that sanna works with sankhara. kindly clarify how sanna works without the aid of the sankhara data bank... 13) isn't the watching of kaya-vedana a complete citta-vithi in itself with all the 5 khandas involved and therefore is not watching the kaya-vedana as anicca - ITSELF - the bhavana of ALL the 4 satipatthanas? why then, do some people talk about thinking and noting mind states in addition to watching kaya vedana? is that not a distraction? is that not more thinking (and not anupassana)? is that not a different citta-vithi other than kaya-vinnana vithi and therefore a break in continuity of practice? 14) is the use of talcum powder (say, in summer) a deviation from 8 sila vows? 15) an old leaflet from IMC, rangoon mentions that sayagyi recommended the use of words like aum, amen, allah etc. with the breath during anapana to gain one-pointed concentration. the maha-satipatthana sutta does not recommend these verbalizations. goenkaji does not recommend any verbalization or visualisation with the breath (and this is as per buddha's teaching). does anyone have any idea why and how did sayagyi have this approach? 16) is anicca (udaya-vyaya) the experiential understanding of dhamma-dhatu? is the passing away of sankharas - the experiential understanding of bodhi dhatu? 17) is sabbo PAJJALITO feeling - the experiential understanding of dukkha lakkhana? (sayagyi u ba khin's writings seem to endorse this view). [sabbo pakampito = anicca] please forgive me for my ignorance. I shall be grateful for your reply. metta, dr manish agarwala #77161 From: "tom" Date: Sat Oct 6, 2007 6:54 pm Subject: satori--what it must be like zorroelbueno The Birth of the Sun By Pablo Antonio Cuadra I've invented new worlds. I've dreamt up nights constructed of ineffable substances. I've fabricated bright planets subtle stars all the while sitting with my eyes half-closed: But never will I come close to imagining what that day was like when our fathers first came out with their tribes came out of the jungle and looked east. They heard the growl of the jaguar birds singing and they saw a man rising whose face was burning a young man whose face was nothing but splendor whose stark glances dried the swamps A young man tall and shining whose head was on fire whose face lit up the world. #77162 From: "colette" Date: Sat Oct 6, 2007 7:00 pm Subject: Re: An Introduction to Buddhism- 1 ksheri3 Hi Tep, Scott, and Sarah, This is a good mix to collect all the minds together and ask one question to all three different aspects of mind: Nama is a condition of MIND-ONLY, not the school, but the condition of having the qualities of Mind-Only. Nama, THEREFORE, is INETERNAL, PERSONAL, and COMPLETELY DEPENDENT ON KARMA. ;-) Dhammas are everything whether tangible or intanible as being hallucinatory (there those Torries are again, I wonder if maggie thatcher is gonna pop up), IMAGINED. Rupas are EXTERNAL therefore Dhammas includes both Nama and Rupa. Tep, I believe you are wrong in saying that "individual views are not allowed" since it is the individual that hallucinates and the hallucinations are individually viewed thus negating your statement. In fact, it is strictly your individual view which creates dhammas AND dharmas, without you there would be no dhamma to have been created. [I'm warming up to tackle that mine field that Alex is joking that I walk through concerning the absurdity of the Nihilistic point of view] > > T: Yes, of course. I cannot agree more with you that "this is just a > discussion", pure dhammas, and no individual views are allowed !! > [Realizing the truth that Scott and Tep are real in each continuing > moment, colette: don't get trapped here Tep, this "realizing" or realization is only YOURS. You cannot say that it is Scott's realization as well and you cannot put Scott into your own mind which would then make Scott subserviant to your mind's whims. --------------------------------------- so that we are mindful to adhere to right speech all the > time and abstain from harsh words.] colette: there you go, sometimes it'll be difficult to real you in once you've gone soooooooo far out. Mindfullness is a state a condition of being, whether or not that being is an illusionary condition or state. It is an AWARENESS OF something other or it could be an AWARENESS OF self. The CONDITIONALITY of the Dharmas was created by the Buddha so that the Buddha could speak to the level of intelligence of each individual set of bhikkus and peoples. HARSH WORDS certainly did have their place in the Buddha's diction. My greatest appologies for having gotten off to such a good start and now I've gotta go since I hear something coming in the front gate and this is not my computer. toodles, colette #77163 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Sat Oct 6, 2007 11:10 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Response to DC Part 1. dcwijeratna Dear Sukin, Many thanks for your four posts. I'll respond to them certainly, whether they are long or short. That's no trouble at all. On the contrary it is a great pleasure and I consider it a great honour when somebody takes that much trouble over something I have written. My attitude is conditioned by the advice of the Buddha in the introduction to the the Brahmajaala Sutta. ------------ --- > [1]Sukin: But I still can't see why this should make a difference to the > citta of the giver, having in fact done its job and fallen away. > > [2] DC: This last sentence is abhidhammic analysis-Cittas arising and falling. Really, this kind of analysis, to my mind, is very difficult. >[3]Sukin: I have to admit that I too am having difficulty with this. I am thinking particularly about how the recipient of our actions influence the quality / strength off the kamma involved. Actually I thought about this when still new to Abhidhamma, but at the time decided that I may figure it out later on. But also it seemed to not be so important to find out the answer as it has nothing to do with the growth in kusala and the development of wisdom. Perhaps I should leave it as being the aspect of kamma considered to be imponderable? What do you think? This is my response to [3] DC: I am also not sure what my thinking on this matter it. But I'll articulate it hoping that you will be able to pick holes in it. I'll start from the second sentence--"I am thinking particularly about how the recipient of our actions influence the quality / strength off the kamma involved." The recipient doesn't influence the quality or the strength of my kamma. That I have done. That I'll be heir to; I own it and so on. kamma is the act by mind, words or body. It will arise and be gone. The recipient or the listener accepts it. If you get to know it, you become pleased. So your happiness increases. That is merit. Ok, the recipient rejects or doesn't understand. Then you are unhappy. So the merit has decreased. Well you can keep on analysing like this. I find it a valid analysis. But we cannot analyse these things according to the Abhidhamma methods easily. At least for me. Now to: "But also it seemed to not be so important to find out the answer as it has nothing to do with the growth in kusala and the development of wisdom." Yes agreed. But daana is the beginning of everything and it is the end of everythig when your give up your attachment to "I". Now to the word "imponderable" My understanding of imponderable is another dimension. That is it is not possible for us human beings to relate this is the "kamma" and this is the "vipaaka" or its result. It is not possible to correlate the two. Because any act (kamma) is conditioned by many factors. Let's say today I see a nice picture that gives me happiness. Then I can't say that, sometime in the past I did a particular good deed and that the result I experience today is a result of that. It could be or it could not be. DC: Dear Sukin, I have numbered the paragraphs [1], [2], and [3]. With regard to [1], here are my comments: This is [1]: "But I still can't see why this should make a difference to the citta of the giver, having in fact done its job and fallen away." The citta (let's call it) daana citta ''having in fact done its job and fallen away". I agree with that part. It is no more, it is gone. If for example, the recipient of the daana does not accept it, another citta will arise in the giver. We have no clue to what it is. It could be one of anger--or this fellow didn't listen to me; it could be one of compassion--poor fellow, this fellow can't understand, I shall try again. [Have you ever been a teacher? Then you'll know what I mean.] So we cannot really understand these things by going through this kind of psychological analysis. ------------ --- >DC: So I would stick to the explanations given in the sutta pitaka. >Sukin: What do you mean? Are you saying that I should be paying attention to the "conventional act" and leave it at that? If so, how does one avoid relying on "belief", something you discourage in another context? DC: To the first question my position is yes. But you don't "pay attention" to the "conventional act", you do it with full attention and understanding that it is a good thing to do. Now the second sentence is crucial. There is absolutely no belief involved in paying attention to the conventional act, as far as I see. For example, I see a beggar. I feel sorry for him. I give him a meal. He is happy I am happy. Where is the belief. What ever the results you get, you get irrespective of what you do? This is Dhammapada verses 1 and 2. They only say that if you do something with a good mind you get good results and bad mind bad results. If you go beyond the teaching of the Buddha then you have problems of belief, unless you claim a realization of your own. So you see my position, I think, is consistent. ------------ ---- >Sukin: You are saying that this is simple to understand? Are you taking into consideration your whole impression of the Buddhadhamma, or are you thinking that this applies regardless of whether someone understands say, conditionality, satipatthana and anatta? How much `evil' and `good' do we know? How much of the Path do we understanding that in fact are able to `purify the mind'? And isn't it that when this is not truly understood, we are likely to end up confusing good and evil? Rather, oversimplification is the norm and we think that we can just `do it'! DC: Dear Sukin, I think the meaning of the word 'understanding' has to be taken with respect to the Buddha's teaching. The 'dependent-origination' starts with: "avijjaa paccaayaa sankhaara" Our will-ful acts are conditioned by delusion. Now this to me means: All of us who are in Samsara have this delusion (moha) and are unable to see the reality and therefore understand. That is why we travel in samsaara. If you agree to sa.msaara, then you have to accept that. So the question of understanding the concepts you mentions such as anattaa does not arise. I also sometime reflect on the following: The people who came to Buddha were hearing the Dhamma for the first time. They were not taught anattaa or satipatthana. But they became, at least some of them, arahants. So what is the necessity to learn all this stuff. Well, "sabba paapassa akaran.m" along with the next verse "khantii param.m.." are called the "ovaada paatimokkha" the adivice the Buddha gave to the bhikkhus every morning. The Vinaya rules were promulagared (commencement) twenty years after the Buddhahood. So this was all the advice the early Buddhist followers got. ------------ ------ Metta D. G. D. C. Wijeratna #77164 From: "vipassana_infonet" Date: Sat Oct 6, 2007 10:45 pm Subject: dhamma questions - PART 2 vipassana_in... 18) do we see anatta as atta due to vipallasa? Is this vipallasa due to sankhara load? 19) how is it possible to be "nirodhanupassi" or "see" nirodha ? how can sanna be nirodh sanna – when there is cessation? 20) what is the difference between pahana-sanna, viraga-sanna and nirodha-sanna from experiential viewpoint? I understand that my list is long. kindly take your own time and reply at your pace - at your convenience. I shall patiently wait to learn from learned scholars at DSG. I am sending a few more questions here... Q 21. do the following factors show their presence in the abhidhammically analysed citta-vithi of a vipassana meditator who is practicing anicca-bhavana on kaya-vedana? - "continuity of practice" - anicca bhavana - equanimity - observation Q 22. is bhavanga the mind-door through which mano-vinnana knows objects and phass happens? Q23. are practices like the celebration of (late as well as living) dhamma teacher's birthday / demise day etc. as per buddha's teachings / as per correct burmese tradition? Q 24. I am searching for quite some time for a quote [vaguely remember the source to be "samyutta' that's all] which says that one must know / understand sanna well in order to reach nibbana... Q25. [most ven. mahasi sayadaw has dealt with this question already.] http://www.budsas.org/ebud/mahasi-malukya/mahasi-malukya-01.htm ven sayadaw has explained this (under the caption -"answering a critic"). this person was saying that it is not possible to "just observe -mere observe" when the object of awareness falls away before it is known etc...many such similar doubts may be raised. am I having the correct understanding that all these questions are unnecessary for the vipassana meditator and that whether the object known falls away before or not etc is not important - what is important is whether a equanimous state of mind is maintained + anicca knowledge so that no new kamma is made and old kamma gets eradicated on it own... is this correct understanding? Q26. am I having the correct understanding when I say that different methods in the mahasatipatthana sutta are for different types of individuals and moreover - it is just the difference in starting point - after a point - all paths lead to sampajanna of the entire mind-matter structure? so, to what type of persons is vedananupassana more suited? is cittanupassana more suited for more samadhi type persons? is dhammanupassana as starting point more suited to those with high paramis and who are able to have deep insight quickly? Q27. in the satipatthana sutta - buddha mentions ajjatha- bahidda. am I right to understand them as external and internal ayatanas? so, the lord wants us to have awareness of sampjanna at ALL sense doors. right? but, since only 1 citta can arise at a time AND sabbe dhamma vedana sammosarana AND all the cetasikas show no division on the basis of 6 sense-doors so am I right if I assume that no matter the sankhara was made at the citta-vithi of which sense-door process - ALL types of sankharas are reflected as kaya-vedana for a meditator working exclusively on anicca-bhavana on kaya? is this right understanding? will such a meditator be able to eradicate ALL sankhara just by knowing anicca on kaya-vedana continually? this has to be - for if awareness of ALL senses was absolute compulsory - then a silent bhikkhu sitting in a quiet dark odour-free meditation cell/cave and meditating had no hope to get nibbana - for in this case - only 2 citta-vithis are on - mano and kaya. so, am I right if I say that working on ANY one citta-vithi process is enough for nibbana? [I remembered tucca potthila story here also!]. am I right if I say that the continuity of sampjanna is ONLY possible at level of kaya-vedana? Q28. in the vedananupassana of satipatthana it is said that the meditator must know samisa and niramisa vedana as pajanati - with samapajanna. now samisa is the feeling of vedana with the hetus of raga, dosa, moha and not being aware of the true nature of ti-lakkhana. [as per VRI research article]. my question is - buddha wants us to know all types of samisa vedana as pajanati - all types of niramisa vedana as pajanati - but, if the meditator is already with panna - already knowing tilakkhana - already knowing anicca - how will the vedana be samisa? how can the knowing of samisa vedana and being with pajanati go together? am I to understand that buddha suggests that the meditator starts the process of pajanati and gradually move from samisa to niramisa as panna develops? and finally at the stage of "atthi vedana ti' va panassa sati paccupatthita hoti" - the meditator's panna is so strong - that all vedana is now known as niramisa... is this right understanding? I thank ALL you in advance for your kindness - for bearing with me and sharing dhamma with so much metta. dr manish agarwala india please forgive me for my ignorance. I shall be very very grateful for your reply. #77165 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Oct 7, 2007 12:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Corner (19) sarahprocter... Dear Han & all, The following which you quote (below my sign-off) is interesting as an example of how we cannot necessarily tell from the outer appearance (in this case there would have been more praise as a monk)what is most appropriate or conducive of 'fewness of wishes'. Thx again for posting these extracts. Metta, Sarah --- han tun wrote: > We read in the “Basket of Conduct” (The Perfection of > Equanimity, III, 15, the Great Astounding Conduct) > that the Bodhisatta developed the perfection of > equanimity to the highest degree (as an ultimate > perfection, paramattha paaramii), during the life he > was the wise Lomahamsa. The Commentary states: <...> > He thought of abandoning his possessions and becoming > a monk, but then he considered that, as a monk, his > good qualities in themselves would not be apparent so > as to become praiseworthy. That was why the Great > Being who was averse from gain and honour did not > enter the state of monkhood. He reflected: ‘I should > just have sufficient belongings and lead a life of > moderation with regard to gain, loss and the other > worldly conditions.’ ” > > ---------- > > Someone who becomes a monk receives praise because of > the excellence of monkhood. However, the Great Being > rejected the gain and honour which one would receive > as a monk. He thought that even though he would not be > a monk, he would conduct himself in a praiseworthy > way. [1] He would practise fewness of wishes and not > have anything in excess. <...> #77166 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Oct 7, 2007 12:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Siila sarahprocter... Dear Han, --- han tun wrote: > While on the subject of dependent origination, as you > know, the dependent origination can be understood in > three periods (kaala). > Past: avijjaa, sankhaara > Present: vi~n~naana, naama-ruupa, salaaayatana, > phassa, vedanaaa, tanhaa, upaadaana, kamma-bhava > Future: jaati, jaraa-marana. > > Because of this three-period mode, some Burmese > jokingly say that, “you do whatever you like in this > life, your bad effects will be born by the other > fellow in next life.” .... S: !! ... > However, some Burmese believe that one’s kamma will > ripen and bear fruits in this very life. ... S: We never know - can be this life, next life or a life far, far into the future as you know... ... >This belief > is strengthened by another belief that Buddha saasanaa > will last only 5000 years, and the decline will start > from the mid-point (we have passed the mid-point by 50 > years), and that from that mid-point onwards, the > Sakka, the king of devas, will protect the Buddha > saasanaa on behalf of the Buddha. Now, this Sakka will > be less merciful than the Buddha, and he will hand out > the punishments to bad people in this very life. Those > believers called this period, “Sakka saasanaa.” .... S: !! Seems like some superstition mixed up with kamassakata ~naana ... > For those who do not believe in “Sakka saasanaa” it is > alright, no harm done. But for those who believe in > it, they will be more careful and will observe siila > more carefully, so that they will not be punished in > this very life! .... S: I think this is an example of siila being conditioned by attachment to self or fear, rather than by an understanding of the real harm of not observing siila. What do you think? ..... > > Before WWII, a famous Burmese movie actor and singer, > U Khin Maung Yin, even sang a song composed about this > “sakka saasanaa.” > > This is just food for your thought. .... S: I haven't heard this idea before. Is there any textual support which led to this idea of sakka saasanaa, I wonder? Like Nina, I enjoy hearing about the Burmese ideas, quotes and similes. Thank you! Metta, Sarah ======= #77167 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Oct 7, 2007 1:24 am Subject: Rebirth as Hungry Ghost! bhikkhu0 Friends: Those who steals and cheat takes Hungry Ghost Rebirth! Those who steal food & who are too lazy for doing good deeds, become corpse or menstruation eating Ghosts, and abortion eating Ghosts (Peta). Whatsoever are engaged in low praxis, mean, miserly, avaricious, stingy, & the constantly greedy are reborn after death as swollen neck Ghosts... Whoever prevents others from giving & does not himself gives anything, becomes an ever hungry & thirsty Ghost, needle-mouthed & big-bellied... Whoever clings to his wealth only for his family, but who neither enjoys nor shares it, is reborn as ghost eating only what is given, such as things given at funerals... Whoever longs to steal anothers property, but then later regrets it, is reborn as a peta feeding on excrement, pus & vomit... Whoever speaks aggressively, angry, words hitting like daggers, becomes a ghost with mouth like a furnace burning fiercely with red coals & ashes... And whoever is cruel minded, without sympathy and quarrelsome, would become a fiery ghost eating worms, leeches, insects, crabs and beetles... Source (edited extract): PañcagatidÄ«panÄ« by Ashvaghosa & Saddhammaghosa: 11-12th century AC. Tr. by Ann A. Hazlewood. Journal of the PÄ?li Text Society. Vol. XI 1987: http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=132714 More details on the Peta (ghost) destination: From the Tipitaka: Minor Anthologies Vol 4, Vimanavatthu & Petavatthu http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=130738 http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/DPPN/pu/peta_vatthu.htm Hungry Ghost Rebirth! Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka * http://What-Buddha-Said.net ... #77168 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Oct 7, 2007 2:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "there is no 'person'" - "The controversy on ¡person¢ is ended" sarahprocter... Dear DC, I replied to the firs part of your post #76604. This is the second part: Thank you for this translation: --- DC Wijeratna wrote: >S: The next one - 24, 'Kaa.laka.'- has this same passage. {S: AN bk of 4s, 23 'The World', discussing omniscience of the Tathagata.} > > > DC: Here is an alternative translation by Bhikkhu Bodhi of the above > passage: > "Monks, in the whole world...Tathaagata is the conqueror, unconquered, > one who sees-at-will, the wielder of power. Therefore he is called the > Tathaagata." [Numerical Discourses of the Buddha, Nyanaponika Thera and > Bhikkhu Bodhi, p. 83] > You'll see that PTS "alle-seeing" has become "one who sees-at-will", and > "omnipotent" has become "wielder of power" in the above translation. > What I want to concentrate on is the word "world". I am sure, you have > heard of the description "this fathom long body" as the world. > The world in the present context refers to First Noble Truth--Dukkha, > and the famous words ", collectively the five aggregates of grasping is > dukkha (Sa.nkhittena pancuppaadaanakkhandhaa dukkhaa). > > So the above sutta does not appear to me to give any of the ideas in PTS > translation. > > One point, if you read the whole sutta, you'll see that it starts with > Awakening of the Buddha--complete realisation of the Four Noble by > higher-knowing (abhi~n~naaya). Everything else in the sutta is related > to this and to the term "tathaagata". The Bodhisatta was a human being, > and the Buddha does not belong to the category of being as he had no > lobha, dosa, and moha. > Here is a nice gaathaa from sutta nipaata. > "namo te purisaaj~n~na, > namo te purisuttama, > sadevakasmi.m lokasmi.m > Natthi te pa.tipuggalo" > ======== .... S: Thank you for the translation and helpful comments. Can you translate the Sutta Nipata verse for us? There is more on 'Tathagata' in 'Useful Posts'. Here is some helpful detail which I'm sure you're familiar with: #68807 Sarah to Scott: >We were discussing and sharing quotes on elements and I like the one you gave here very much on 'Tathaagata': --- Scott Duncan wrote: Here's a bit from The All-Embracing Net of Views (pp.324-326) : "CY. (iii) Why is he called the Tathaagata because he has come to the real characteristics (of dhammas)? "(The six elements): The earth element has the characteristic of hardness - that is real, not unreal (tatha.m avitatha.m); the water element, of flowing; the fire element, of heat; the wind element, of distending; the space element, of intangibility; the consciousness element of cognizing. "(The five aggregates): Material form has the characteristic of deformation; feeling, of being felt; perception, of perceiving; the mental formations of forming; consciousness, of cognizing... "The elements have the characteristic of emptiness; the sense bases, of actuating; the foundations of mindfulness of awareness; the right endeavours, of endeavouring; the bases of spiritual success, of succeeding; the faculties, of predominance; the powers, of unwavering; the enlightenment factors, of emancipating; the path, of being a cause... "All these characteristics are real, not unreal. Through the movement of his faculty of knowledge he has come to the real characteristic (of all dhammas); he has reached it without falling away from it, fully arrived at it - therefore he is the Tathaa gata. "Thence he is the Tathaagata because he has come to the real characteristic. " ..... Sarah: Let me add two more quotes from this section on 'Tathaagata' which you refer to: 1."Why is he called the Tathaagata because he is a seer of the real? In this world together with its gods, etc., in this generation with its rulers and its men, whatever visible form object there is that enters the threshold of the eye-door of the innumerable beings throughout the innumerable world-systems - that the Exalted One knows and sees in all its modes....." .... 2. "Furthermore, he is the Tathaagata because he has 'gone through reality' (tathaaya gata) and because he has 'really gone' (tatha'm gata). Here 'gone' (gata) has the meanings of undergone (avagata), gone beyond (atta), attained (patta), and practised (pa.tipanna). Thus he is the Tathaagata because he has gone through - i.e. undergone-reality by fully understanding the entire world [note: Sub Cy: 'The world' here is the noble truth of suffering...] through the scrutinization (of its essential characteristics, as impermanent, suffering, and not-self). He is the Tathaagata because he has gone through - i.e. gone beyond - reality by fully understanding the world through the abandonment of its origin. He is the Tathaagata because he has gone through - i.e. attained - reality by realizing the cessation of the world. And he is the Tathaagata because he has really gone along - i.e. practised - the way leading to the cessation of the world."< ***** Thank you again for all your messages. I look forward to any comments on any of my recent ones to you. Metta, Sarah ======== #77169 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Oct 7, 2007 2:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] dhamma questions - PART 2 nilovg Dear Dr Manish, I see you are from India. Thanks for your kind observations and many questions. I am just packing to go to India with Kh Sujin and a group from Thailand. Any chance of meeting? Oct 14 Crown Plaza Hotel , just for one night, next day on to Agra. In Agra (Jaypee Palace Hotel) there will be more time for a Dhamma talk, since Kh Sujin and many of us have seen Agra many times. After that is our whole tour with the holy places, and my husband and I will still be at the end two nights, Oct 26, 27, at the Crown Plaza Hotel. The Thai group returns straight to Bgk. I cannot count how many times, maybe ten times, I was in India. If I have time I may react to one or two of your points. The moderators and all of us are interested to know more of your background. It is kind if you can tell us more. Nina. Op 7-okt-2007, om 7:45 heeft vipassana_infonet het volgende geschreven: > I understand that my list is long. kindly take your own time and reply > at your pace - at your convenience. I shall patiently wait to learn > from learned scholars at DSG. #77170 From: han tun Date: Sun Oct 7, 2007 2:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Corner (19) hantun1 Dear Sarah, I am glad that you appreciate these extracts from The Perfections that I am now posting. As regards “fewness of wishes’, if one acquires material possessions it no doubt helps the quality of life, but at the same time one has to watch, to guard, to protect, and to take care of these possessions. This trouble of guarding one’s possessions is called ‘aarakkha dukkha.’ So, one has to weigh the usefulness of these possessions against the trouble to guard and protect them The details of aarakkha dukkha is elaborated by the Buddha in DN 15 Maha-nidana Sutta, under sub-heading of ‘Dependent on Craving.’ http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.15.0.than.html Dependent on Craving "Now, craving is dependent on feeling, seeking is dependent on craving, acquisition is dependent on seeking, ascertainment is dependent on acquisition, desire and passion is dependent on ascertainment, attachment is dependent on desire and passion, possessiveness is dependent on attachment, stinginess (macchariya) is dependent on possessiveness (pariggaha), defensiveness (aarakkha) is dependent on stinginess (macchariya), and because of defensiveness (aarakkha), dependent on defensiveness (aarakkha), various evil, unskillful phenomena come into play: the taking up of sticks and knives; conflicts, quarrels, and disputes; accusations, divisive speech, and lies. "And this is the way to understand how it is that because of defensiveness (aarakkha) various evil, unskillful phenomena come into play: the taking up of sticks and knives; conflicts, quarrels, and disputes; accusations, divisive speech, and lies. If there were no defensiveness (aarakkha) at all, in any way, of anything anywhere, in the utter absence of defensiveness (aarakkha), from the cessation of defensiveness (aarakkha), would various evil, unskillful phenomena — the taking up of sticks and knives; conflicts, quarrels, and disputes; accusations, divisive speech, and lies — come into play?" "No, lord." "Thus this is a cause, this is a reason, this is an origination, this is a requisite condition for the coming-into-play of various evil, unskillful phenomena — the taking up of sticks and knives; conflicts, quarrels, and disputes; accusations, divisive speech, and lies — i.e., defensiveness (aarakkha). -------------------- So, now-a-days, Sarah, I do not want to own anything except the basic minimum needs. Respectfully, Han #77171 From: han tun Date: Sun Oct 7, 2007 3:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Siila hantun1 Dear Sarah, > > Han: For those who do not believe in “Sakka saasanaa” it is alright, no harm done. But for those who believe in it, they will be more careful and will observe siila more carefully, so that they will not be punished in this very life! .... > S: I think this is an example of siila being conditioned by attachment to self or fear, rather than by an understanding of the real harm of not observing siila. What do you think? .... Han: Of course, observing siila by an understanding of the real harm of not observing siila is the best. But observing siila being conditioned by attachment to self or fear is better than not observing siila at all :>) -------------------- > > Han: Before WWII, a famous Burmese movie actor and singer, U Khin Maung Yin, even sang a song composed about this “sakka saasanaa.” .... > S: I haven't heard this idea before. Is there any textual support which led to this idea of sakka saasanaa, I wonder? Like Nina, I enjoy hearing about the Burmese ideas, quotes and similes. .... Han: No, I do not have textual support. But the fact that the song about this theme was quite popular before WWII, it may have some textual support. If I can find some reference I will come back to you. Respectfully, Han --- sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Han, > > --- han tun wrote: > > While on the subject of dependent origination, as > you > > know, the dependent origination can be understood > in > > three periods (kaala). #77172 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Sun Oct 7, 2007 5:22 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (68) nichiconn dear friends, beginning with this, part 6 of Caapaa's story, the verse numbers stop matching such that the Pali's will be one higher than the translations'. txt: Upake pana pakkante nibbindahadayaa caapaa daaraka.m ayyakassa niyyaadetvaa pubbe upakena gatamagga.m gacchantii saavatthi.m gantvaa bhikkhuniina.m santike pabbajitvaa vipassanaaya kamma.m karontii maggapa.tipaa.tiyaa arahatte pati.t.thitaa, attano pa.tipatti.m paccavekkhitvaa pubbe upakena attanaa ca kathitagaathaayo udaanavasena ekajjha.m katvaa- 292. "La.t.thihattho pure aasi, so daani migaluddako; aasaaya palipaa ghoraa, naasakkhi paarametave. 293. "Sumatta.m ma.m ma~n~namaanaa, caapi puttamatosayi; caapaaya bandhana.m chetvaa, pabbajissa.m punopaha.m. RD: But Caapaa, sick at heart over his departure, delivered her boy to his grandfather, and, following in the way Upaka had gone, renounced the world at Saavatthii, and attained Arahantship. And uniting Upaka's verses with her own, she thus exulted: (Her husband speaks.) 'Once staff in hand homeless I fared and free. Now but a trapper am I, sunken fast In baneful bog of earthly lusts, yet fain To come out on the yonder side. My wife (291) Plays with her child and mocks my former state, Deeming her charm yet holdeth me in thrall. But I will cut the knot and roam again.' (292) PRUITT: When Upaka departed, Caapaa was broken hearted. She handed her boy over to his grandfather and going along the path taken earlier by Upaka, she went to Saavatthi. She went forth in the presence of the bhikkhuniis and devoted herself to developing insight. She was established in the state of Arahatship through [attaining] the paths, one after the other. Looking over her attainment, she put together as a solemn utterance the verses spoken earlier by her and Upaka and spoke these verses: [Upaka:] 291. Formerly I carried an [ascetic's] staff. Now I am a deer hunter. Because of craving, I have not been able to go from the terrible mire to that far shore. 292. Thinking me enamoured [of her], Caapaa has kept our son happy. Having cut Caapaa's bond, I shall go forth again. ===to be continued, connie #77173 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Oct 7, 2007 6:14 am Subject: Re: dhamma questions - PART 2 indriyabala Hi Manish, - Congratulations! Nobody I know has ever before asked 28 questions in just two messages. They are interesting and confusing at the same time; perhaps, it is because we have vastly different background. So, I think I will go ahead with only two questions that I can handle ("small birds carry a few twigs at a time"). 4)I used the VRI chatta-sangayana CD and found that buddha lists only 3 items under samma-kammanto. even in satipatthana, dhammanupassana, magga sacca pabbam - it is so. so am I to understand that not taking intoxicants is part of panca-sila but, not a part of samma-kammanto? so not taking intoxicants does not form part of the main ariyo-attahgiko-maggo? is it so? sounds strange to me. T: For monks they have Vinaya and Patimokkha (150 training rules) that take care of everything beyond samma-kammanto & samma-ajivo. For householders 'panca sila' is the foundation that supports the advanced practice in accordance with the four ariya-sacca. Entering the ariyo-atthangiko-maggo has to start with samma-ditthi that understands kusala/akusala kammas. With the understanding of dangers in taking intoxicants one will abandon them; that is a right view. ................. Q28. in the vedananupassana of satipatthana it is said that the meditator must know samisa and niramisa vedana as pajanati - with samapajanna. now samisa is the feeling of vedana with the hetus of raga, dosa, moha and not being aware of the true nature of ti- lakkhana. [as per VRI research article]. my question is - buddha wants us to know all types of samisa vedana as pajanati - all types of niramisa vedana as pajanati - but, if the meditator is already with panna - already knowing tilakkhana - already knowing anicca - how will the vedana be samisa? how can the knowing of samisa vedana and being with pajanati go together? am I to understand that buddha suggests that the meditator starts the process of pajanati and gradually move from samisa to niramisa as panna develops? and finally at the stage of "atthi vedana ti' va panassa sati paccupatthita hoti" - the meditator's panna is so strong - that all vedana is now known as niramisa... is this right understanding? T: No meditator's mind can be "already with panna - already knowing tilakkhana - already knowing anicca" all the time. Mind(citta, vinnana) is aniccam. Therefore, some other times 'samisa vedana' will rise, and the good meditator knows it with pajanati. Even when pa~n~na is develping, it is not permanent -- the ups & downs and the coming & going-away happen because pa~n~na is aniccam. I think the right understanding you are talking about is yatha- bhuta~nana-dassana. Yes, when the meditator knows all vedanas the way they really are (i.e. dukkha-vedana, sukha-vedana, adukkha-m-sukha- vedana, samisa, niramisa, aniccam, dukkham, anatta), then that is right understanding. Those are just my one-rupee thoughts. Tep === #77174 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Oct 7, 2007 6:33 am Subject: Asoka, Ch 7, no 5. nilovg Dear friends, Khun Sujin explained the Dhamma with the greatest patience and mettå, both to beginners and to those who had studied more. She gave us practical advice for the application of the Dhamma, as she always does. I appreciate it especially that she stressed time and again that what we learn from the teachings is not theory, that it concerns realities. For each subject of the Dhamma we have to return to paramattha dhammas, we have to know precisely whether something is citta, cetasika or rúpa. She repeated many times that we listen to the Dhamma in order to understand the reality appearing at this very moment. She gave us the advice to “follow the stream”. She said, “Just follow the stream in your life, whatever comes.” We have to follow whatever occurs because of conditions, then we shall understand the meaning of anattå. This can condition awareness of nåma and rúpa. Like each journey in India, we had to suffer hardship: the road was bad at times, we were in the bus for a great length of time, we had some days of rain, and there were other discomforts like a fever or a cold. No matter what we see, hear or experience through the bodysense, there are only nåma and rúpa. We may say to ourselves, “there are only nåma and rúpa”, but their different characteristics should be known when they appear one at a time. Nåma is different from rúpa, and only when there is mindfulness of them, understanding of the difference between their characteristics can develop. We should not try to control realities which are conditioned already, but just follow them. This is a test for our understanding. We may think of the need for the perfections of energy and patience, but there may be clinging to a self who wants to have them. Khun Sujin said that they arise already because of conditions, and that there is no need to remind ourselves of them. We never know what will happen. One of our friends was so ill that she could not continue the bus trip and had to take a plane. It was unavoidable that this meant a delay for all of us. But if we “follow the stream” in difficult situations or in the company of people who cause us trouble, it will help us to see anattå. Khun Sujin reminded us that we may say, “everything is anattå”, but that this does not mean that we understand anattå. We should consider what exactly is anattå: the nåma or rúpa appearing at this moment. Sound which appears does not belong to anyone, it arises because of its own conditions and it is beyond control. When hearing arises it is beyond control, we cannot help hearing when there are conditions for hearing. Only through mindfulness of nåma and rúpa the truth of anattå can be penetrated. The Buddha’s teaching of anattå is not theory, it relates to this very moment. ******* Nina. #77175 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Oct 7, 2007 7:00 am Subject: Re: An Introduction to Buddhism- 1 scottduncan2 Dear Tep, Thanks for the reply: T: "...[Realizing the truth that Scott and Tep are real in each continuing moment, so that we are mindful to adhere to right speech all the time and abstain from harsh words]...The best discussion environment that is conducive to mutual learning and joy(gladness, paamojja) must be supported by mutual respect and trust. If you think of Tep as a "mixed-up" outsider, then it is very difficult for us to continue to discuss anything (let alone discussing the dhammas or Dhamma)." Scott: I simply disagree with you, Tep. Nothing more. Can we still go on if I continue to do that? Sincerely, Scott. #77176 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Oct 7, 2007 7:10 am Subject: Re: Response to DC Part 1. indriyabala Dear DC and Sukin, - I must admit that your discussion is good in the sense of being fun (like watching a good game). Sukin, you are a very fast shooter. I was mercilessly killed a few times before by your "machine gun". ;-) But I have two comments below. No intention to interrupt your fast- moving & fun dialogue, so don't worry about replying. > >Sukin: You are saying that this is simple to understand? Are you taking into consideration your whole impression of the Buddhadhamma, or are you thinking that this applies regardless of whether someone understands say, conditionality, satipatthana and anatta? How much `evil' and `good' do we know? How much of the Path do we understanding that in fact are able to `purify the mind'? And isn't it that when this is not truly understood, we are likely to end up confusing good and evil? Rather, oversimplification is the norm and we think that we can just `do it'! T: I am sure that you asked yourself all these before. But I am not so sure you already have good answers to share with DC or me. You just ask and have fun asking. You know, I am thinking about Rahula, the Buddha's son. He didn't ask more than a few essential questions, and he succeeded in becoming an Arahant. He just 'did it' very earnestly with great saddha in the Buddha. ............. >DC: I also sometime reflect on the following: The people who came to Buddha were hearing the Dhamma for the first time. They were not taught anattaa or satipatthana. But they became, at least some of them, arahants. So what is the necessity to learn all this stuff. T: Some people, according to the suttas, became arahant by contemplation of impermanence in the five aggreagtes of clinging. Some attained arahantship through entering ruupa- and aruupa-jhaana, then directly to supernormal powers and 'knowledge of the attainment of cessation' i.e. nirodhasamapatti~nana. But all of them must be endowed with the seven qulities of the sekha (see MN 53: Sekha- patipada Sutta). "(7) He is discerning, endowed with discernment of arising & passing away — noble, penetrating, leading to the right ending of stress." Another sutta says that seeing the arising & passing away of the dhammas, the monk will also see the dukkham and anatta characteristics. Tep === #77177 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Oct 7, 2007 7:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] dhamma questions sarahprocter... Dear Manish, (Alex & all), Welcome to DSG! Delighted to read your intro and very detailed questions. Thanks for mentioning a little about your Dhamma background. Whereabouts do you live in India? I just wished to say a few words as you're new here. I'd like to suggest all active members (and any non-active members!) select one or two questions to respond to. Tep has already set a good example doing this. That way, they can be split into different threads. I only have a very little time, so let me select one here: --- vipassana_infonet wrote: > 12)how is the sanna-khanda able to 'memorize' or perceive or evaluate > anything without the aid of sankhara-khanda? or is it that the sanna > and sankhara work together? once a dhamma-teacher told me that sanna > means "samyutta jnana" [sanskrit] i.e. compound wisdom or that sanna > works with sankhara. kindly clarify how sanna works without the aid of > the sankhara data bank... .... S: Impossible! Sanna arises with every citta, as does vedana and also 5 of the cetasikas included in sankhara khandha - i.e. phassa, cetana, ekaggata, jivitindriya and manasikara. They all assist and condition each other. Most of the time, many more sankhara-khandha cetasikas, such as vitakka and vicara also arise to enable sanna to 'memorize' or perceive as well. So sanna may arise with or (much more commonly) without wisdom. In some contexts only, it's clear that when sanna is referred to that wisdom is also implied, so in some suttas,for example, the teacher's comment may be right. Generally speaking, if we refer to sanna as a universal cetasika, we can't say this however. Have you read Nina's books 'Cetasikas' and 'Abhidhamma in Daily Life'? They can be found on Zolag website. I'll look forward to discussing more Dhamma with you here after our trip. We leave tomorrow night for Thailand and then India, as Nina mentioned! (Alex, pls take a look at these too. I hope others like Scott can give you more recommendations for your Abhidhamma studies) Metta, Sarah ======== #77178 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Oct 7, 2007 7:23 am Subject: Re: An Introduction to Buddhism- 1 indriyabala Dear Scott, - Take it easy. A disagreement does not break my heart(hadaya). > T: "...[Realizing the truth that Scott and Tep are real in each > continuing moment, so that we are mindful to adhere to right speech > all the time and abstain from harsh words]...The best discussion > environment that is conducive to mutual learning and joy(gladness, > paamojja) must be supported by mutual respect and trust. If you think of Tep as a "mixed-up" outsider, then it is very difficult for us to continue to discuss anything (let alone discussing the dhammas or Dhamma)." > > Scott: I simply disagree with you, Tep. Nothing more. Can we still > go on if I continue to do that? > T: I thought it twice before answering. The answer is, "Yes, please". I think your thoughts and feedbacks are valuable, regardless of the difficulty (lacking mutual respect and trust). Thanks. Tep === #77179 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Oct 7, 2007 8:08 am Subject: Re: Person in the Dhatuvibhanga Sutta, MN 140 - a mere concept? indriyabala Dear Sarah, - I find your last, up-to-date reply very funny. > > T: Does the above remark indicate your softened stance that allows > > the twelve kinds of "person" to also be real, i.e. having real > > existence ? > ... > S: No chance! The answer b) is the Puggalavaadin understanding which is clearly shown to be wrong view in the texts. > > I think I'm now up-to-date with your older posts addressed to me, Tep. > Again, apologies for all the delays. > ....... T: There is no urgency, or even a necessity, at all for you (or anyone) to trouble yourself replying to all the posts I have written. Some of them are below average anyway. Yes, we are up to date with respect to the posts being answered. But the gap between our beliefs (ditthi) is still as deep and wide as before. Is there a likelihood that we'll ever build a "bridge over (this) trouble water"? Tep === #77180 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Oct 7, 2007 8:29 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Puggala pa~n~natti indriyabala Hi Sarah (and Han), - Thank you very much for asking Khun Sujin about sanna & vedana for me. > Sarah > p.s. I may not have mentioned that I raised a very old qu of yours with K.Sujin when we last saw her some months ago. You asked Nina (in #48331) about why sanna and vedana are chosen to be called citta- sankhara and not the other 50 cetasikas. > > Her answer was that all cetasikas are included here. I think as Nina > replied (in #48337), it depends on the context what is stressed. There are many examples like this where just a couple of cetasikas are mentioned in a sutta or other text, but they are just given as 'representatives' of all the cetasikas, > ========== > T: I also remembered discussing sanna & vedana with our good friend Han before (at the SD group). He wondered why only these two cetasikas were "chosen" to be included in the five clinging aggregates, why not other cetasikas such as manasikara and cetana? Tep ==== #77181 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Oct 7, 2007 9:25 am Subject: Re: An Introduction to Buddhism- 1 scottduncan2 Dear Tep, We go on: T: "The arising and ceasing characteristics (say, of the five aggregates) and the Dependent Origination are the "truths" that are applicable to all the dhammas (see the 201 dhammas to be "directly known" in the Path of Discrimination, I, 5). These "truths" are clearly understood with yathabhuta~nana-dassana(the knowledge and vision of things as they really are) that is one of the sequential dhammas in AN 10.61 and in other similar suutas such as the Kundaliya Sutta and the Upanisa Sutta(SN 12.23). These dhammas are not conceptual constructs." Scott: I have got to get my own copy of Path of Discrimination. I do have access to the Pali. Is this the 'Sammasa~naa.naniddeso'? Perhaps you can give the English quote. At any rate, ~naa.na is a function of pa~n~naa, is it not? I still think that some notion of 'stages of understanding' is being misunderstood here. The development of pa~n~naa is one of increasing strength of penetration. Its objects are never concepts. I can't agree with the use of 'sequential dhammas' in the above. It is, to me, quite imprecise - a stage-theory of some kind. T: "SN 12.23 : "Thus, monks, ignorance is the supporting condition for kamma formations...and emancipation is the supporting condition for the knowledge of the destruction (of the cankers)." Scott: The sutta is about 'upanisaa'. 'Supporting condition' is upanissaya paccaya or strong-dependence condition. The sutta you reference is full of abhidhamma. I'll suggest again that a misunderstanding of the sense of the term 'dhamma' will make it difficult to see that the sutta refers to the way in which dhammas interact as conditioning and conditioned states from moment to moment. T: "...the dhammas to be developed in non-ariyans, beginning with 'faith' to 'the knowledge and vision of things as they really are'. After s/he becomes ariyan, then the sequential development goes further to 'the knowledge of the destruction (of the cankers)'. It is clear that these dhammas are developed over a long time period rather than all of them arise simultaneously in a 'single moment'." Scott: Again, no. Development is from moment to moment *and* the development of 'dhammas' takes a long, long time. These are in no way mutually exclusive. Saddha is a mental factor arising conascently with citta. It is via the successive arising, presence, and cessation of each moment that anything becomes developed. How else would you suggest that ignorance (also a mental factor) has become so well-developed? Sincerely, Scott. #77182 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Oct 7, 2007 10:27 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Citta scottduncan2 Dear Nina, Thanks for the reply regarding 'coarse defilement through mind': N: Very strong wrong view: there is no kamma, no vipaaka. Really being convinced of this. It is very dangerous. The intention to take away someone's possessions, thinking about it that one will do this." Scott: Would it be fair to suggest that these ideas are conditioned by the unwholesome roots? N: "I used to think that vipaaka could be accumulated, but heard: no. Kamma produces vipaaka and then it is gone, all over. Only during the javana cittas there is accumulation of kusala or akusala. Mostly akusala, is it not? Even now we like seeing, feeling, living." Scott: This sounds right to me, Nina. Thanks. I hope you have a good trip. Sincerely, Scott. #77183 From: Sobhana Date: Sun Oct 7, 2007 10:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Asoka, Ch 7, no 5. shennieca Dear Nina, Thank you for a very nice post. I like the advice to “Just follow the stream in your life, whatever comes.” Personally, I find it difficult not to get angry or jealous when the conditions arises. It is difficult to watch the "feelings" from a "detached" view. I always get absorbed in it and think that those feelings belong to "me" and "I" am hurting. Sometimes I repeat in my head, "feelings are not-self, anger is not-self, greed is not-self" etc, etc, but then I would still feel sad and cry. No matter how hard I convince myself that there is no-self, these feelings still felt so real and it hurts. It is difficult to stay calm and watch these feelings. It will take time to train the mind and learn mindfulness and hopefully I'm improving day by day. :)) Looking forward to read more about the Dhamma. Metta to all, Elaine C #77184 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Oct 7, 2007 10:44 am Subject: Re: An Introduction to Buddhism- 1 indriyabala Dear Scott, - We don't have to agree on the individual interpretation of the dhammas or his practice according to the Dhamma. It takes time to learn, contemplate, correct errors, and develop pa~n~naa; that path (patipada) is unique for each person. For now let's concentrate on the main theme, citta. Please proceed. ;-) Tep === #77185 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Oct 7, 2007 11:01 am Subject: [dsg] Re: An Introduction to Buddhism- 1 scottduncan2 Dear Nina, I very much appreciate these clarifications: N: "...Dhamma bears its own characteristic and it is close in meaning to dhaatu. The Dhammasangani gives a list of all the sobhana cetasikas to begin with that assist kusala citta. The word samaya is used: on that occasion... It is actual and also due to a concurrence of conditions, as the Atthasalini explains samaya. They all have different characteristics. Dhammas with different characteristics, but let us think of this very moment, no theory." Scott: Of course, it is always 'this very moment' and whatever it is conditioned to be. I don't leave 'theory' so quickly. As noted in the other thread regarding 'coarse defilement through mind', "[v]ery strong wrong view: there is no kamma, no vipaaka. Really being convinced of this...". Without knowing 'theory' correctly first, that is through pariyatti, strong wrong view just proliferates. I'm not so quick to throw out the baby with the bathwater. Since even pariyatti consists of the development of kusala. N: "Seeing is quite different from thinking of a person we perceive. But when will this really sink in, I have trouble when looking at Lodewijk. However, 'my' ignorance and clinging have conditions to arise and I could not change what has arisen already. I need patience which is at times difficult." Scott: Conditions remain for clinging to arise for me as well, even without wife. When I had a wife, ideas about her were a function of clinging. For two-and-a-half years without her ideas about her (despite her absence) were still a function of clinging. Now ideas about other women arise and are still a function of clinging. Patience definitely would come in handy. Sincerely, Scott. #77186 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Sun Oct 7, 2007 11:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Puggala pa~n~natti dcwijeratna Dear Tep, This is your question: >T: So, my question again is : Are the four ruupa jhaanas necessary for Stream-entry? Hint: even in the suttas the Sotapatti factors do not include jhaanas. DC: Tep you are asking me a very difficult question. Because I cannot answer the question with my usual confidence. Simply because I don't know. You remember we agreed that to know is to directly experience. Now I'll give you my my understanding based on the suttas. Your question hinges on the meaning of one word--jhaana. This is my understanding (Basis Saama~n~naphala sutta). Step 1: Perfection of the Sila ("Endowed with this noble aggregate of moral discipline, he experiences within himself a blameless happiness. In this way, great king, the bhikkhu is possessed of moral discipline.") He has absolutely nothing to worry about. Step 2: Restraint of Sense Faculties "Endowed with this noble restraint of the sense faculties, he experiences within himself an unblemished happiness. In this way, great king, the bhikkhu guards the doors of the sense faculties." This is what is called "indriya sa.nvara". Step 3: Mindfulness and Clear comprehension (sati sampaja~n~na) Step 4: Contentment When he is equipped with 1, 2 and 3 above, "In this way, great king the bhikkhu is content" Once he is content like that it is perfection of the siila. Step 5: Abandoning of the Hindrances "When he sees that those five hindrances have been abandoned within himself, gladness arises. When he is gladdened, rapture arises. When his mind is filled with rapture, his body becomes tranquil; tranquil in body, he experiences happiness; being happy, his mind becomes concentrated." The five hindrances are: covetousness, ill-will and hatred, dullness and drowsiness, restlessness and worry doubt. All these are abandoned. Note the causal language. The First Jhaana "Quite secluded from sense pleasures, secluded from unwholesom states, he enters and dwells in the first Jhaana, which is accompanied by applied and sustained thought, and filled with the rapture and happiness born of seclusion. The Second Jhaana No applied and sustained thought in Second Jhaana The Third Jhaana Equanimity and happiness only The Fourth Jhaana Pure equanimity Now it is from the fourth jhaana that one becomes a sotapanna. Now what I want to say is that These jhanas are four mental states which can never be known by any person other than the one who experiences. From the time he enters the first jhaana he doesn't respond to the external or internal signals. His mind is concentrated on a single object. However, the Buddha has said that it is from the Fourth Jhaana that you get to Sotapanna. So that is the situation. But it must be remebered that Fourth Jhana is a conditioned pure mental state and there is now way, it can be observed. I'll go into more theoretical aspects now. It has to do with the misunderstanding of "Dependent arising" For example when you say avijjaa conditions mental formations, no time interval between the conditioning and the conditioned is postulated. Thus the Jhaanas 1,2,3, and 4 does not imply a time sequence. It must be interpreted just that they are conditioned states only. This is difficult stuff Tep, I hope I have made myself clear. In that hope only I rambled along. I will put it briefly now. I think that will be more intelligible to you. Jhaanas are conditioned mental states. They are not observable (to an outsider). According to the Law of causality (what is postulated in Buddhism) there is no time interval between the the conditioning dhamma and the conditioned dhamma. So the answer to your question is yes, you can become a sotapanna only form the fourth jhaana. Regarding the sotapatti factors (I hope you mean associating true men etc.)--Those are the things which we should do. That is the path. That is the practice. If you practice according to the instructions, jhaanas happen. That is causality. That is why I went in great detail through the steps from Sila. Now one last word: The sama~n~naphala sutta is the heart of Buddhist practice. To really understand it, it will take about one year. Dear Tep, if there is anything that you feel is obscure, please come back. I have used Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation. Here is what BB's preface says: "...the fullest canonical account of the spiritual training of the bhikkhu..." With lots of mettaa, D. G. D. C. Wijeratna #77187 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Oct 7, 2007 12:14 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: An Introduction to Buddhism- 1 nilovg Dear Scott, Op 7-okt-2007, om 20:01 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: > Scott: Of course, it is always 'this very moment' and whatever it is > conditioned to be. I don't leave 'theory' so quickly. As noted in > the other thread regarding 'coarse defilement through mind', "[v]ery > strong wrong view: there is no kamma, no vipaaka. Really > being convinced of this...". Without knowing 'theory' correctly > first, that is through pariyatti, strong wrong view just proliferates. > I'm not so quick to throw out the baby with the bathwater. Since > even pariyatti consists of the development of kusala. ------- N: I quite agree. But as Sukin explained (I always keep his post in mind, conditions), pariyatti concerns this moment. We consider and ponder over all the dhammas arising at this moment. I try to follow Kh Sujin's advice: whatever we read, study, let us apply it to this moment. We may not have strong wrong view, but the latent tendency is there. It may also condition us to just a little deviate from the right Path, taking for sati what is not. Clinging may suggest doing this. -------- > > N: "Seeing is quite different from thinking of a person we perceive. > But when will this really sink in, I have trouble when looking at > Lodewijk. However, 'my' ignorance and clinging have conditions to > arise and I could not change what has arisen already. I need patience > which is at times difficult." > > Scott: Conditions remain for clinging to arise for me as well, even > without wife. When I had a wife, ideas about her were a function of > clinging. For two-and-a-half years without her ideas about her > (despite her absence) were still a function of clinging. Now ideas > about other women arise and are still a function of clinging. > Patience definitely would come in handy. ------ N: not only handy but very necessary. It is one of the perfections and we need them all to reach the other shore. We have accumulated all sorts of defilements and they also stem from past lives. But the Buddha always emphasized: just comprehending, understanding whatever dhamma arises as conditioned. No matter how unwholesome, no matter how unpleasant it is. It does not matter what arises, and if it matters the citta is akusala, perhaps with conceit. I may say this, but I have to learn to apply it, I find it very difficult to apply it, but this depends on understanding. Nina. #77188 From: "colette" Date: Sun Oct 7, 2007 8:22 am Subject: Re: Perfections Corner (15) ksheri3 Hi Alex, I have some time now and can try to begin this procedure: I'm gonna open the "MIND-DOOR", now initially I'm gonna feel a rush of air as the pressure changes from the hallway of lunatics (see Pink Floyd's Brain Damage) I'm in and the room I'm opening. This msg/reply THEREFORE may be better done in a two part series i.e. preparation and perfection, dzogchen for instance. ############################################################ > > "Nothing comes into being, nor does anything disappear. Nothing is > > eternal, nor has anything an end. Nothing is identical, nor is > > anything differentiated. Nothing moves here, nor does anything move > > there." > >>>>>>>>> > > Could you please explain that phrase? ####################################################### PART 1. How is it different from nihilism? colette: Nihilism takes a position that there is no external forces at all, the "play" a person has is strictly an individual thing, momentary, without repercussions, side-effects, or interaction with anything other than an object, per se. Nihilism takes a position of nothing before and nothing after, much like this quote from Nargajuna but the nihilist is much more certain and profound in their belief structure that the Doctrine of Shunyata is a Bible or Users Manual (for lack of better terminology). Yes, they too strike at the concept that the moment is all there is. BINGO! Like many religions and theologies we know that in Buddhism this life is to be used as a ladder to achieve higher states of consciousness and realization. Can I say "a Graduated Stage"? The nihilist denies anything and everything AFTER whereas the Buddhist is certain that the Bardos state precedes the next incarnation. Narajuna's point is to negate reality and distinguish what we perceive to be reality as ILLUSIONARY. This is a means to open the door for the Doctrine of Shunyata to have a foundation. I do not have Svabhava. My consciousness may have svabhava but I do not since I cannot prove what I am to prove what I could possibly possess. I can prove that MY NATURE at this second is Shunya (empty) and therefore would be best served by seeking out the definition of the Doctrine of Shunyata (the doctrine of Emptyness). We all have Buddha-Nature, the ability to become Buddhas yet it is bound through illusionary concepts of self. In the movie ALIENS the host of the alien entity growing inside had to be wrapped in latex-like binders securing the host to a single spot (much like a mortgage or a prison sentence) so that the parasite could mature inside the host before emerging and doing away with the useless shell that once nurtured the growing parasite. This is very similar to Buddha-Nature although if it is not recognized and awakened, such as Kundalini, then it cannot grow and help the individual that it was designed to help since it is subjected to the superiority of the Illusions that the individual subscribes to or believes in or worships or votes for or.... But once that Prana or Chi is awakened then it's a different ball game since now the illusion has to compete against the workings of the Prana or Chi or Buddha-Nature for control and mastery over the individual. ------------------------------------- > That phrase seems uncomfortably close to certain wrong views of certain > Indian ascetics. colette: Indeed, IT IS EXTREMELY CLOSE. In fact one may say or suggest that they touch eachother completely on a single side which makes it very difficult for the aspirant to decide how far they are to go up to what they perceive as being the edge of that concept. You could say that it is like the close bind between the concepts of OVER- CONFIDENCE AND PANIC. One is in complete control and relaxed the other is in chaos and FILLED WITH EMOTIONS. Only through practice can one find that the dividing line becomes clearer and clearer, more obvious, as practice continues. That should do for the time being. Let me reflect on what I've just expounded to you here and consider my next move, or path. toodles, colette #77189 From: "colette" Date: Sun Oct 7, 2007 11:39 am Subject: Question for Tep ksheri3 Tep, Do you practice Western esoteric magik in a group called THE GOLDEN DAWN? Are you associated with the O.S.O.G.D.? Do you live in the Oakland area? You sound like a priest I met in 2004 when I started on line doing this and now I've had some bad feelings. I'm simply taking care of business and getting my stories straight is all I'm doing by questioning you in this way. I'm having some weird feelings at this very moment, of the "magik circle" that works through me, in that Bay Area/San Jose Area. They'll do it no matter what I do I can't stop them and if they don't well, there certainly are many other esoteric societies, cults, etc, that use me and my material as well as my abilities, to further their limited ends. No offense intended. toodles, colette #77190 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Oct 7, 2007 1:04 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Puggala pa~n~natti indriyabala Dear DC, - I know that the question looks simple, but it is very difficult to answer. Yes,I also remember that we agree on verifiability of a truth. I asked: "Are the four ruupa-jhaanas necessary for Stream-entry?" You answered : "...the answer to your question is yes, you can become a sotapanna only form the fourth jhaana." And I appreciate your answer a lot, DC, because you have the courage to reply with "no tongue in cheek". And I admire people who do not beat around, below, or above the bush. The followings are two sutta quotes to support my previous comment that you can find from the suttas that the Sotapatti does not include the four jhaanas. I am leaving these two suttas for future discussion, if you want to discuss them. [MahaKotthita:] "Sariputta my friend, which things should a virtuous monk attend to in an appropriate way?" [Sariputta:] "A virtuous monk, Kotthita my friend, should attend in an appropriate way to the five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. Which five? Form as a clinging-aggregate, feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness as a clinging-aggregate. A virtuous monk should attend in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. For it is possible that a virtuous monk, attending in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant... not-self, would realize the fruit of stream-entry." [SN 22.122] ......... "Then Anathapindika the householder went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to the Blessed One, sat to one side. As he was sitting there, the Blessed One said to him, "When, for a disciple of the noble ones, five forms of fear & animosity are stilled; when he is endowed with the four factors of stream-entry; and when, through discernment, he has rightly seen & rightly ferreted out the noble method, then if he wants he may state about himself: 'Hell is ended; animal wombs are ended; the state of the hungry shades is ended; states of deprivation, destitution, the bad bourns are ended! I am a stream-winner, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening!' [AN 10.92 Vera Sutta] ........... Tep === #77191 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Oct 7, 2007 1:24 pm Subject: Re: Question for Tep indriyabala Hi Colette, - You asked three strange questions ! >C: Do you practice Western esoteric magik in a group called THE GOLDEN DAWN? >Are you associated with the O.S.O.G.D.? >Do you live in the Oakland area? T: No to all three, Colette. I'm living in Texas. >C: You sound like a priest I met in 2004 when I started on line doing this and now I've had some bad feelings. I'm simply taking care of business and getting my stories straight is all I'm doing by questioning you in this way. T: I am sorry to hear about that unpleasant incident. Take a quick look at my pic in the DSG photo file, and you will know that he is not I, and vice versa. I hope your confusion will be gone soon. >C: I'm having some weird feelings at this very moment, of the "magik circle" that works through me, in that Bay Area/San Jose Area. They'll do it no matter what I do I can't stop them and if they don't well, there certainly are many other esoteric societies, cults, etc, that use me and my material as well as my abilities, to further their limited ends. T: Please talk to Scott. He probably knows how to deal with those feelings. Or, if you think I can be of any help please let me know by off-list emailing. Good lucks, Colette. Tep === #77192 From: "Alex" Date: Sun Oct 7, 2007 2:57 pm Subject: Re: Perfections Corner (15) truth_aerator Hi Colette, you wrote quite a bit. Thnx. I'd like to summarize what you've said. Basically you talked about Kamma and rebirth as the difference between that Nagarjuna statement and nihilism. As I understand there is another possible interpretation here: Nothing has a self existent entity. Such an entity would not be able to interact with the emperic world and other things in it. Everything is dependently arisen without a self existent "entity" (noumen). Only causes and conditions are, but no self existent entities (or nothingness). Causes & conditions exist, but only in relation to each other. No absolutism (except Nibbana. Here I disagree with N ) but only "relativism". Lots of Metta, Alex #77193 From: "gazita2002" Date: Sun Oct 7, 2007 5:01 pm Subject: Re: Response to DC Part 1. gazita2002 Hello Tep, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Dear DC and Sukin, - > But I have two comments below. No intention to interrupt your fast- > moving & fun dialogue, so don't worry about replying. > > > >Sukin: You are saying that this is simple to understand? Are you > taking into consideration your whole impression of the Buddhadhamma, > or are you thinking that this applies regardless of whether someone > understands say, conditionality, satipatthana and anatta? How much > `evil' and `good' do we know? How much of the Path do we > understanding that in fact are able to `purify the mind'? And isn't > it that when this is not truly understood, we are likely to end up > confusing good and evil? Rather, oversimplification is the norm and > we think that we can just `do it'! > > T: I am sure that you asked yourself all these before. But I am not > so sure you already have good answers to share with DC or me. You > just ask and have fun asking. > > You know, I am thinking about Rahula, the Buddha's son. He didn't ask > more than a few essential questions, and he succeeded in becoming an > Arahant. He just 'did it' very earnestly with great saddha in the > Buddha. Azita: this passage caught my i, and I may be out of order here, in that I have not been following all of these posts. However, it seems to me that you think that Rahula became an Arahant by just asking a few questions? would he have over innumerable past lives, accumulated wisdom and understanding about dhammas so that in this final life of his, he really only needed that 'extra little nudge along' to attain arahatship? When I read suttas about beings gaining final liberation, it reminds me just how very far away from 'me' that is. That journey can start now this very moment, it cant start anywhere else than right here right now. > > >DC: I also sometime reflect on the following: The people who came to > Buddha were hearing the Dhamma for the first time. They were not > taught anattaa or satipatthana. But they became, at least some of > them, arahants. So what is the necessity to learn all this stuff. > > T: Some people, according to the suttas, became arahant by > contemplation of impermanence in the five aggreagtes of clinging. > Some attained arahantship through entering ruupa- and aruupa- jhaana, > then directly to supernormal powers and 'knowledge of the attainment > of cessation' i.e. nirodhasamapatti~nana. But all of them must be > endowed with the seven qulities of the sekha (see MN 53: Sekha- > patipada Sutta). > > "(7) He is discerning, endowed with discernment of arising & passing > away — noble, penetrating, leading to the right ending of stress." > > Another sutta says that seeing the arising & passing away of the > dhammas, the monk will also see the dukkham and anatta > characteristics. Azita: the arising & passing away of dhammas - do we really know just how difficult that is??? Patience, courage and good cheer azita #77194 From: han tun Date: Sun Oct 7, 2007 6:20 pm Subject: Perfections Corner (24) hantun1 Dear All, This is the continuation of Chapter 10: The Perfection of Equanimity, taken from the book “The Perfections leading to Enlightenment” by Sujin Boriharnwanaket and translated by Nina van Gorkom. Questions, comments, or different opinions are welcome. ------------------------------ In the “Conduct of Equanimity” of the “Basket of Conduct”, the perfection of equanimity to the highest degree has been dealt with in order to proclaim the benefit and the power of the excellent qualities of the Bodhisatta. We read: ---------- “He gave up his wealth, his circle of relatives, and he left his home, in the same way as someone who enters the state of monkhood, although he did not become a monk. He lived in the same way as a monk. The Bodhisatta did not cling to the state of monkhood, he was averse to favours and praise that accrue to the monk. The monk must accept the reverence that people show him, and he strives for the excellence of the status of monkhood. The Bodhisatta was just a monk at heart, he had the mentality of a monk, and in this way he lived in utmost happiness.” ---------- Since the Bodhisatta was averse to favours and praise that come with monkhood, he did not go forth. However, he was a monk at heart and developed kusala; in this way others would in truth respect him, even though he had not gone forth. We read further on: ----------- “He had the highest degree of contentment with little, he delighted in tranquillity, he had no concern for his body and his life, because his aim was equanimity. He practised the abandonment of defilements to the highest degree, he endured the depraved deeds from others. He had the firm determination to diminish the defilements which were opposed to the requisites of enlightenment by evenmindedness in all respects. This caused him to be moderate in everything, to be impartial towards others who supported him and to those who did not. His life was like that of an arahat and hence he did not cling to the vicissitudes of life. He reached the peak of the perfection of equanimity, and as such it is pre-eminently a perfection leading to the awakening of a Buddha (Buddha påramí).” ---------- To be continued. Metta, Han #77195 From: "Alex" Date: Sun Oct 7, 2007 6:28 pm Subject: Some thoughts... Again... truth_aerator Hello all. I was thinking... some "higher" dhamma thoughts... As someone has said, "we mistake our perception of the world for the world itself". What is the world and objects in it? They are perceptions of: 1) forms & colours. 2)Sounds, 3) smells, 4) tactile feelings, 5) tastes, 6) Thoughts, ideas, imaginations, volitions, emotions. Outside of these we cannot say something exists or doesn't exist. When we describe something it usually has atleast 2 of the above factors. We never see an object ontologically, as it is by itself, untainted by our sense organ (and kilesa) interpretations/perversion. We only see what the response of our sense organ to the "outside stimulus" is. Hardness/softness is a perception (of tactile feeling)+ idea "hardness/softeness", etc. Motion (of seen object) is a visual form&colour changing its location in space. Temperature is perception of a feeling + idea "temperature, hot or cold". Cohesion (of seen objects) is again a set of perceptions and feelings. Space & time are perceptions too. Without consiousness you cannot say "Space & time exist or they do not exist" . Even the body and its material sense organs are a collection of perceptions and aren't something existent from their own side. It is possible to change ones consiousness and lose awareness of ones body. For example if you get knocked out, or enter super deep meditation level, or fall into deep sleep - then all thoughts of "I AM, I EXIST, I AM THIS" vanish. In other words consiousness IS NOT eternal and unchanging substance like a self or a soul. It is a dependently arisen process that is NOT fully under our control. Try this experiment: Sit strait in the chair, close your eyes and try not to think for a minute. Was that easy? Now try 10 minutes... 20 minutes... If thoughts were your own, you would be able to fully control them. But you can't. Thoughts and desires were given to you by your environment, media, friends & family. Those born in English speaking country think in english. Those born in China speak chinese, etc etc. Question: You say everything is perception (or consiousness, or feeling) , right? A: Everything we can describe or talk about is our own perceptions. Q: If so why can't I imagine a car and car will appear? Why when I kick a wall it remains there? Why can't I close my eyes in a busy freeway and not get hit? Etc. etc. A: As I was saying, all we can speak about is our own VIEW of the world. We cannot say how it is (does it exist or not?) outside of our perceptions. Also, where did I say that we can control our own mind? The consious process is dependently arisen and what happens now is not only what you want to do, but it also depends on the past causes. Where did I say that the mind creates perceptions as it wishes? Q: why doesn't everything appear at the same time? A: Even in dreams there is apparent order and some times dreams do make sense. And you can wake up then fall asleep again and resume where you have left off. No external objects are required for very real and lucid dreams. Our perceptions are not fully controllable. Again I'd like to stress is that this writing is HOW we form an idea of the world. I am not talking about what the objective (ontological) reality is outside of the observer, which by the way wouldn't really matter since it is outside of our perceptions and feelings. Even the idea of "reality outside of perceptions" is a mental feeling, perception & idea. Q: 2 different people can read the same page. Does this prove "objective" reality? A: First of all, none of this is beyond perceptions. Here we have certain similiar perceptions... Anyhow you shouldn't imagine that there is/isn't somebody outside of you looking at the same thing that "you" are looking. All of this is a dependently arisen process without any ultimate, undivisible and eternal substances. Q: Objective reality can create effects, Ideas cannot. For example water imagined in the mind cannot satisfy thirst while real one can. A: Again all of this is perception and mental idea CAN be put into action. ---- It is too easy to knock down static view of the world. For example. What is the smallest and non-divisible particle? Any natural number above 0 are divisible. But if a particle has 0 size than even an infinite number of them would still equal zero. Since "whole is sum of its parts", then there would be no objects. Same with weight and basic units of energy. Another. Lets say say an object it rest and then it has moved. Question: at exactly which moment of time and at what distance did it switch from "non-moving" to "moving" object? Any duration >0 is further divisible. Same with length. Another: Before Big Bang occurred (there were no space & time) , where and when and what size was that proto particle that has exploded into a universe? For how long did it exist before the explosion? If the universe is limited in size, to where did it expand? What is beyond the universe? A wall, or a vaccum? Both of these can't be since they are part OF the universe. Etc etc. ---- Lets take two philosophers: a) Is a materialist. b) Is a solipsist. Solipsism is probably the easiest "philosophy" to defend. Any argument a materialist launches against solipsism, a solipsist will be effortlessly brush off "It is only my imagination. WOW my mind was active today. It is only an illusion... etc etc" A materialist can say that all of this is based not on mind (or illusion) but on atoms, matter, and other materialistic processes which create consiousness and thus all the possible illusions and logical problems. It goes without saying that he will be able to provide very reasonable, logical reasons for that. If both philosophers are equally well versed in debate and are equal opponents, none of them will be able to convince each other. One craves for "mind" another craves "matter". Often craving causes the mind to find justifications and ways to satisfy its desires. " contact > feeling > perception > thinking > the perceptions & categories of papañca " - m18 Buddha did right when he said that craving (and ignorance) are the real causes of wrong views. WIth craving you see what you WANT to see. With ignorance you IGNORE obvious but earth shattering facts such as (impermanence, unsatisfactoriness, non-beauty, non-self). Ignorance is not so much that we don't have PhD in Abhidhamma, but it is a state of mind OVERLOOKING obvious facts given in experience, facts overlooking which create suffering. Craving is like gravity which holds particles together in a whole. Craving "holds" phenomenon together in self and non self. As long as we perceive and are passionat and enchanted with 24 (or more) categories as outlined in MN#1, we are passionate about our own "self". When one doesn't crave for any of 24 categories, there isn't a self or someone suffering. Self can be put only in relation to non-self (24 categories)... Anyhow my head hurts and the most important question out of all of this is "What is to be done for long term happiness? How much knowledge is enough and how much is too much?" Lots of Metta, Alex #77196 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Oct 7, 2007 6:31 pm Subject: Re: Response to DC Part 1. indriyabala Dear Azita (DC and Sukin), - I am glad to welcome you to this forum. >Azita: this passage caught my i, and I may be out of order here, in that I have not been following all of these posts. However, it seems to me that you think that Rahula became an Arahant by just asking a few questions? T: Not only that, I guess. True, Rahula only asked the Buddha a few essential questions; but the key to his success was his earnest practice according to the Teachings, i.e. "do it". >Azita: would he have over innumerable past lives, accumulated wisdom and understanding about dhammas so that in this final life of his, he really only needed that 'extra little nudge along' to attain arahatship? T: Of course, we cannot discount the ' innumerable past lives' and kusala accumulations. However, even with the incredible accumulations as a supporting condition , Rahula still strived very hard. Now, that teaches me a lot. >Azita: When I read suttas about beings gaining final liberation, it reminds me just how very far away from 'me' that is. That journey can start now this very moment, it cant start anywhere else than right here right now. T: Yes, thank you very much for reminding me of the importance of "right here right now". > >Tep: > >Another sutta says that seeing the arising & passing away of the > dhammas, the monk will also see the dukkham and anatta > characteristics. >Azita: the arising & passing away of dhammas - do we really know just how difficult that is??? T: Are you implying that seeing 'anattaa' is easier? To truly see "the arising & passing away of dhammas" is very difficult. But we are lucky to have a few clues like the followings. 1) Seeing the rise and fall of a dhamma(say, vedana) is pari~n~naa. 2) Before pari~n~naa that truly sees the rise-and-fall phenomena , we need direct knowledge(abhi~n~naa). 3) Satipatthana bhavanaa is the path of practice for direct knowledge. Next step , just 'do it' right here right now. Tep === #77197 From: "Alex" Date: Sun Oct 7, 2007 6:56 pm Subject: Some basic Sutta&Abhidhamma questions truth_aerator Hello group, 1) How many pages is Sutta Pitaka in Pali? 2) Where in the suttas is Abhidhamma Pitaka mentioned? 3) Is there sutta which says that "On the 4th week after enlightment) Buddha taught Abhidhamma, and when he spoke patthana his body emitted rays?" 4) How many pages is Abhidhamma Pitaka in Pali? 5) Who memorized 7 books of Abhidhamma Pitaka? 6) What are the commentaries to Abhidhamma Pitaka and how many pages are they? 7) Where is there first mention of khanikavada (radical momentariness)? Can an advance meditator perceive the billions of mind moments happening per second during meditation? Anyone read Ajahn Sujato's writings re: Abhidhamma? Any opinions? Thank you all, Alex #77198 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Oct 7, 2007 8:22 pm Subject: Re: Some basic Sutta&Abhidhamma questions scottduncan2 Dear Alex, A: "Anyone read Ajahn Sujato's writings re: Abhidhamma?" Scott: Reference please. Sincerely, Scott. #77199 From: "colette" Date: Sun Oct 7, 2007 3:17 pm Subject: Re: Perfections Corner (15) ksheri3 Hi Alex, Check me out and you'll find some very equal statements to yours i.e. "I do not have Svabhava", an eternal self existance, "... negate reality and distinguish what we perceive to be reality as ILLUSIONARY. tHIS IS THE MEANS TO OPEN THE DOOR FOR THE DOCTRINE OF SHUNYATA...", et al Thank you for rephrasing what I said but not for adding your focus of Kamma and rebirth. Since I have experienced death, while it was fleeting, the first time in 1978, I do not focus on rebirth or reincarnation since I'm sure that I'm working for that better state of existance already. While your concern may be something as simple as Kamma and rebirth I am 100% confident in their eventualities, it's a given, no need to waste time speaking of it. "No absolutism (except Nibbana. Here I disagree with N) but only 'relativism'." Not too familiar with the use of "absolutism" and "relativism" therefore I tend to not use those words, this is something that I should familiarize myself with though. Thanx. I am working on the "spatial" qualities of the mind, I believe Semde, while I've just begun meditating on the Winds and Drops thus I'll be working the Heart Suttra soon. I'd love to see some actual tantric texts on this since it certainly relates very well to many esoteric magikal practices I've found in Western traditions and practices. Earlier today I was very confident of Longde but have somehow lost my train of thought and am now without a focus on this aspect. Both the Heart Suttra and the Prajnaparamita are big texts but I figure I've got time. I can only hope that my friends and guides in this sense are still gonna be with me through this long practice. thanx for the reply. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > > Hi Colette, > > you wrote quite a bit. Thnx. I'd like to summarize what you've said. > Basically you talked about Kamma and rebirth as the difference > between that Nagarjuna statement and nihilism. > > As I understand there is another possible interpretation here: > Nothing has a self existent entity. Such an entity would not be able > to interact with the emperic world and other things in it. Everything > is dependently arisen without a self existent "entity" (noumen). > Only causes and conditions are, but no self existent entities (or > nothingness). Causes & conditions exist, but only in relation to each > other. No absolutism (except Nibbana. Here I disagree with N ) but > only "relativism". <...>