#80600 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 3:07 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anicca=/Dukkha jonoabb Dear Asanka Many thanks for this reply, and for the biographical information you have shared with us. karunarathnata wrote: > Anicca is nature of changing the things. Every Nama and Roopa are > changing. There is nothing which exists at least fraction of second. > Yes. Anicca is usually translated as 'impermanent'. All dhammas that arise fall away immediately, and thus they are impermanent. The direct experience of this is one of the aspects of insight development. > Consider your one finger and see it. It will change after 10 years. > That means it change within 10 years. Within 1 Year, Within 1hour. > Within 1second, Within 1 over 10000.. second. > I think that when we start talking about the changing nature of objects such as a finger (rather than the rise and fall of dhammas), we are no longer referring to the anicca that is part of insight development. So while true in the conventional sense, it is not knowledge that leads to the development of insight. > People think their body and soul ( In Buddist > there is no concept call Soul) will exist long time. It is false. > Every physical things also has a cycle of dying and birth.That is not > raincarnation of one thing. It is like this. Consider flame of a > candle. brightening things are Carbon particles, but every time its > not a same particle. Particles are always changing. After one burnt > anothe will come and will brighten. We call it one flame. Yes, I think you are referring to the fact that while a flame has the appearance of continuity it is in fact a series of separate and discrete arising of matter. This analogy helps us to understand how it is possible that the world as we know it is in fact other than it appears to be. > Though my English skills are not enough to explain the Anicca there > are lot of things i have to say. Dukka and anathma also same. If you > are interesting then i will write more. > Your English is fine. Please do not hesitate to join in further. > I am a Sri lankan citizen and Buddhist from birth. When I am 10 years > old start to study the Dharma in depth. Sri Lanka is the Land of > Dharma.( but now its the worst island in world due to corrupted > politics) Now I finished my Enginering Digree and waiting for a job. > Good luck with the job-hunting! Jon #80601 From: "pannabahulo" Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 4:07 pm Subject: the importance of practice pannabahulo Dear Dhamma friends, Please let me begin by saying that all of us are more or less in the same boat. We all have the highest respect for the Lord Buddha's teachings and for the wonderful opportunity we have in coming into contact with a teacher like Ajan Sujin. We are all dedicated to the purification of our minds. But, particularly we westerners are very `head heavy.' Our education has had that effect on us and we find it very difficult to place concern and emphasis on the condition of our hearts/minds. It is easy for us to intellectualise things and avoid facing up to the real source of our suffering which is the state of our minds. Here I would like to show my respect and gratitude to Nina for her remarks made in Kashmir (On one of the India "Dhamma Discussions" CDs that I listened to in Myanmar). Amidst the continual academic quest for terminological information, Nina talked openly and honestly about the aversion she felt when she saw the state of the houseboat's toilets; and also about her concern for her husband. Thank you Nina: Thank you for your honesty. These are the real issues for which the Dhamma is the medicine. And the only way that we can effect any real change in our lives is through the practice of Satipatthana and, in particular, by observation of our hearts and minds. Therefore, when I read this paragraph by the late Ven Phra Ajan Buddhadasa last night, I felt a need to share this with you all. He said: "In Buddhism, the essential meaning of the word "study" is the unceasing, dedicated observation and investigation of whatever arises in the mind, be it pleasant or unpleasant. Only those familiar with the observation of mind can really understand Dhamma. Those who merely read books cannot understand and, what's more, may even go astray. But those who try to observe the things going on in the mind, and always take that which is true in their own minds as their standard, never get muddled. They are able to comprehend dukkha, and ultimately will understand Dhamma. Then, they will understand the books they read." May we all learn to practice the Dhamma thoroughly and continually and so come out of all suffering and, ultimately, be free from Samsara. With metta and blessings to you all. Pannabahulo Bhikkhu #80602 From: "Andrew" Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 5:26 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Preserving the Buddha's Teachings, Ch 4, no 3. corvus121 Hello DC You wrote: I am doing the thing I like most; discussing dhamma. I am having a good time with my son. He is a computer engineer. My hobby is computing. That is the second most enjoyable thing for me. Andrew: How wonderful that you and your son share such an interest! I am sure it makes his visits all the more enjoyable for you both. > DC: Your interpretation is right. With respect to 'akusala', I want to make an observation: They (killing, lying etc.) certainly are 'akusala' always. But we don't KNOW that. We can have an impression only, but we can never be certain. We can have a belief, but not 'knowledge' in the sense of Dhamma. Belief is to think that something is true without proof. Take the example of thiestic religions again: You can kill for your religion; you can kill for food; you can kill for sacrifice and so on. Only Dhamma maintains that killing etc. is always evil. But we don't know dhamma by 'direct experience'. We hear it from somebody (today read). Andrew: So let me just recap to make sure I have not mixed up the different contexts for worldlings - 1. saddhaa involves action that may be akusala (depending upon what we as individuals know and the workings of the society we live in); 2. siila, however, is based upon absolute fact/reality e.g. killing is always akusala and is always a breach of siila. Is that a correct description? I take it that, in the case of ariyans, saddhaa and siila are always consistent? I mentioned before that I had read suttas in which the Buddha described saddhaa as a "treasure". I think you are saying it is a treasure because it frees the mind from fear and worry. What do you think of the statement in the Atthasaalinii that saddhaa has "purifying as its characteristic", it "makes the mind undisturbed"? DC: Householders will have to lead a mixed life (kusala and akusala) until they become ariyas. Then there siila becomes absolute. Let me summarise the argument again. As puthujjanas (worldlings) we can't live in this world without doing akusala. So if we want kusala (the absolute) we need to leave home-for-homelessness. By the way an arahant is a 'kusalo', or only kusala, because he has eliminated lobha (greed), dosa (hatred), and moha (delusion). Please see whether you can make sense out of what I have written. It is a difficult point : That Buddhist path for the bhikkhu is not the ariyan-eightfoldpath. A householder is a 'gihii kaamabhogii' -- he is enjoying sensual pleasures. Those who can't even leave home, how can they leave samsaara!!! Andrew: I have no difficulty accepting that we householders have to lead a mixed life (kusala and akusala). And it seems to me that our lives are weighted more in akusala than kusala. I think you say above that, if we want a purely kusala life, we need to become bhikkhus. I wonder if that desire is realistic? As bhikkhus, we still have taste-consciousness that can lead to attachment to the sensual pleasure of eating a nice curry. We still have eye- consciousness that can lead to attachment to the beauty of our surrounds. We still have mind-consciousness that might lead us to think that another bhikkhu is lazy etc. Do you see the bhikkhu's path as a step closer to the ariyan eightfold path? In the Buddha's time, there were householders who became arahants without first becoming bhikkhus. Is there a difference in that regard between the Buddha's time and our own, some 2500 years later? DC: They are not transcendental. These iddhis are a natural development of the mind. Have you heard of Yuri Geller; then there was Arigo, the surgeon of the rusted knife. Today Tibetan lamas are being tested at Harvard. They are all mundane-and belong to this world. There is nothing called transcendental in Dhamma. By the way modern Hindu teachers like 'Sai Baba', 'Mahaarshi Sri Ramana', 'Sri Ramakrishna' had these powers. If you read venerable bhikkhus of the the Thai Forest Tradition, you'll come across this sort of phenomena. Modern science is totally clueless when it comes to the mind . They don't know what it is even. And the same is true of us (unless we are ariyans) since we look up to science for understanding of the mind. This leads to one of the most important concepts in Dhamma. That is a human being (more accurately a being) is dukkhakkhanda or the five- aggregates of grasping. (1st Noble Truth). It is a composite of 'nameform' > "Naamaruupa". Scientifically, or mathematically we can think of a human being as a two dimensional entity. One dimension is a mind and the other is matter. This naamaruupa is a process--not in the sense of physical processes; but in the sense of conditioning as given in pa.ticca-samuppaada. This must be distinguished from physical causality. Our understanding of causality is based on a physical or substantialist world. The world of dhamma is a non- substantial flux of experience. So scientists and Dhamma are speaking two different languages. This is my way of understanding the Dhamma without interpreting it. Andrew: I like your description of a non-physical process and how much of our thinking comes from a substantialist/physical perspective. The other day I was speaking with a friend who is a conservationist and we were lamenting the loss of rare animals due to human activity. It later struck me how we Buddhists say that we believe that consciousness goes on after death, yet we often speak and act as if we truly believe that death is the end. And we remain attached to the form as it was. For example, we lament the extinction of rare animals (without acknowledging that the consciousness involved in those animals has continued on and may sometime attain nibbana for all we know!). DC: I want to ask you a personal question. What is your background? Social sciences, or physical sciences, maths or logic. My background is engineering, leaning more towards theory and mathematics, computing and so on. But during the last few years I have veered towards philosophy and languages. Andrew: I hesitate to tell people my background as my profession is now so unpopular in the west!! I am a lawyer and I too like languages and philosophy (although sadly I have too little time to devote to them). I am not the only lawyer on this list - although the other one is not so shy and retiring!! ;-)) Best wishes Andrew #80603 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 6:40 pm Subject: Re: the importance of practice kenhowardau Dear Venerable Sir, Thank you for this post. I am interested in seeing how similarly - or dissimilarly - we understand satipatthana. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "pannabahulo" wrote: > > Dear Dhamma friends, > > Please let me begin by saying that all of us are more or less in the > same boat. We all have the highest respect for the Lord Buddha's > teachings and for the wonderful opportunity we have in coming into > contact with a teacher like Ajan Sujin. > These are the real issues for which the Dhamma is the medicine. And > the only way that we can effect any real change in our lives is > through the practice of Satipatthana and, in particular, by > observation of our hearts and minds. > Therefore, when I read this paragraph by the late Ven Phra Ajan > Buddhadasa last night, I felt a need to share this with you all. He > said: > "In Buddhism, the essential meaning of the word "study" is the > unceasing, dedicated observation and investigation of whatever arises > in the mind, be it pleasant or unpleasant. > Only those familiar with the observation of mind can really > understand Dhamma. Those who merely read books cannot understand and, > what's more, may even go astray. ------------- That gives me the impression of a deliberate "thing to do." But satipatthana is a matter of understanding, isn't it - not of doing. If I understand the difference between nama and rupa I don't need to *do* anything in order to directly see nama as nama, or rupa as rupa. That will be the function of understanding. -------------------- Ven Buddhadasa: > "Only those familiar with the observation of mind can really understand Dhamma. Those who merely read books cannot understand and, what's more, may even go astray. But those who try to observe the things going on in the mind, and always take that which is true in their own minds as their standard, never get muddled. ------------------ When I am learning from Dhamma books the difference between seeing and visible object (for example) there is no thought of "my" seeing is there? There is an understanding that applies to seeing (cakkhu- vinnana) in general. And yet, if I put down the Dhamma books and *look* at something in an effort to directly know seeing there will immediately, and inevitably, be an idea of "my" seeing. Would you agree? So it seems in that example that putting down the books was a big mistake. The nama known as seeing-consciousness should be understood as an impersonal dhamma - not as something belonging to me, or associated with "me" in any way. ----------------------------------- Ven Buddhadasa: > "They are able to comprehend dukkha, and ultimately will understand Dhamma. Then, they will understand the books they read." ----------------------------------- I think the must books come first. The more I understand the conditioned dhammas that are described in the books, the more likely it is that I will know nama and rupa as they truly are. Looking will never do that. With respect, Ken H #80604 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 6:41 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > N: Of course not. When the text is about cultivating the right > conditions for jhaana, as explained in the Vis. , I would say: mostly > for monks who live a secluded life, away from sense pleasures. I am > thinking of Kom's post explaining how difficult it is to be > consistant in one's life style that has to be in conformity with jhaana. > Nina. I would tend to agree with you but you didn't respond to the second part of my observation. If jhana is predominately for monks then everything in the Vism. is predominately for monks. The Vism. is a whole and each section is connected (not like an encyclopedia). It starts out with sila (the first step); then how to cultivate jhana (the second step); and then ends with the insight which will result from jhana cultivation (the third step). It is a path of practice: thus the name: The Path of Purification. Do you seriously believe that householders can just read the last section about insight, study and discuss the last section about insight, and then that would give them the insight? Does anything in the Vism. suggest such a thing? Metta, James #80605 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 6:45 pm Subject: Re: Anatta as a strategy buddhatrue Hi Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Dear James (Sarah) > > Sarah: "When concentration is apparent, it is nearly always *wrong* > concentration. It is only through the development of right > understanding and awareness that right concentration will develop, > never by 'focussing', 'concentrating' or by trying to avoid distractions." > > J: "Okay, is there any evidence in the Vism. to bear this out? Does > purposefully focusing on a meditation object amount to wrong > concentration? Please respond with only quotes from the Vism. as that > is what we are discussing." > > Scott: First, I checked to see if 'wrong concentration' was even > mentioned in the text. Visuddhimagga XXII 50: > > "The wrongnesses are the eight states, namely, wrong view, wrong > thinking, wrong speech, wrong action, wrong livelihood, wrong effort, > wrong mindfulness, wrong concentration, which with wrong knowledge and > wrong deliverance, come to ten. They are so called because they occur > wrongly." > > Scott: So it is clear that the text makes reference to Wrong > Concentration. > > In XXII 66: > > "...Gossip, wrong effort, wrong mindfulness, wrong concentration, > wrong deliverance, and wrong knowledge are eliminated by the fourth > knowledge." > > Scott: What is 'the fourth knowledge'? My guess would be 'path > knowledge' - a function of understanding. This is a good start. Does it say anywhere that this 'wrong concentration' is forced or directed concentration toward a specific object? In other words, does it define wrong concentration anywhere? Metta, James #80606 From: "pannabahulo" Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 7:32 pm Subject: Re: the importance of practice pannabahulo Dear Ken, Thank you for your reply and interest.I cannot agree more with you that Dhamma study is crucial. But I also realise that practice and study must go together.It's no good just pursuing study to the extent that it becomes mere intellectualisation or abstract thought.Study and practice should keep up wih each other.Reading will help to shape our experience so long as we then move on to cinta maya panna and so reflect on what we have read. Only then can we develop bhavana maya panna which directly experiences, and knows, those realities. You are entirely correct when you write: "The more I understand the conditioned dhammas that are described in the books, the more likely it is that I will know nama and rupa as they truly are. Looking will never do that". What I am arguing against is that Dhamma discussions with Ajan Sujin - from my own experience both live and on CD - are dominated by a continual question and answer session about the precise meaning of Pali terms.The discussions become a Pali class and actual Dhamma discussion is minimal.Many of the terms for which clarification is sought refer to phenomena that only a Buddha can experience. And the more these questions grip hold of the group,the further away from the reality of the present moment the group becomes. Ajan Sujin is so patient and fully aware of what is happening; she keeps asking the question "But what about NOW?" But I think the point she is making is missed and, within minutes,such questioning begins again. My purpose in writing these e-mails is to draw attention to this and try to encourage our Dhamma friends to redress the imbalance by practicing as much as possible - every moment is the ideal.Only then can we progress in the Lord Buddha's Dhamma. We only need just as much information as is helpful to us right now! Pariyatti(theory)and patipatti(practice)must go together. With metta to you and every blessing, Pannabahulo Bhikkhu #80607 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 10:57 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Fwd: Re : Could you please help ? sarahprocter... Dear Charles P, Thank you for sending me the introduction of your new book for any comments. It's no inconvenience at all, but as I mentioned, I'd rather share any comments or discussion on your text on DSG, so others can read/comment further if they wish as well. [There are a few grammatical errors or stylistic points, but I'm not commenting on these.] --- sarah abbott wrote: > Introduction. > > > I published a book on Mind, Matter and Meditation in Sinhala, and > it > had been well received by an attentive Buddhist Public, according to > several letters and e-mail messages I have received. The present book > contains the same subject matter, though it is not a direct translation > of > the other. I have ventured to present in this book, those aspects of > the teachings of the Buddha, which may be useful to those who would like > to meditate according to the teachings of the Buddha. .... S: Comment 1 'those who would like to meditate.. ' - I'd be more interested if I read something like 'those who see the value in developing and understanding of....'. Yes, people want to meditate today, but they have no understanding of what 'bhaavanaa' means. .... > > The teachings of the Buddha is profound, and to have an intellectual > understand of the mind and its working as explained by the Buddha, would > need years of study, going into various discourses contained in the > Tripitaka. However, a vast intellectual understanding of the Teachings > is not necessarily a sine qua non for one who seeks to meditate. ... S: Comment 2 'for one who seeks to meditate'. Again, I'm tripping up over this phrase. Firstly, I think it's very unclear and secondly, I think that 'one seeking to meditate' as it would be understood generally is wrong practice. .... > Nevertheless, as mind is the instrument, which has to be used in the > adventure into the realm of meditation, .... S: Comment 3 What does it mean to say that 'mind is the instrument'? What does it mean to say it 'has to be used in the adventure into the realm of meditation'? Again, these comments suggest atta rather than anatta to me. An instrument to whom? To be used by whom? [Yes, I am picky!] .... >an overview of what it is and > how > it works as explained by the Buddha would be of interest to a student > of > Buddhism whether he is a meditator or not.. <...> >...and its function to explain how a follower of the teachings could > find freedom from the cycle of deaths and births, through meditation to > attain Nibbana -the state of non-suffering. ... S: Comment 4 'Through meditation' again. What do you mean by the term exactly? Most people will understand you to mean sitting, focussing on breath or another object and so on. I think this is quite wrong. Freedom from the cycle is found through the development of very precise understanding of namas and rupas, not through any posture or focus. .... <...> > The reader may find the Pali words I have included in the book too > excessive. But Pali being the language in which the Buddha made his > discourses more than 2550 years ago, a Pali word explains a Buddhist > term, > more than its English equivalent, and therefore those words of the > Buddha > have become an essential part of the teachings. I have included them > within brackets and in italics by the side of an English word or a > term, > to enhance its meaning. ... S: Comment 5 Excellent! I think this is always helpful and I like the way you have explained the reason for doing so. I was also very touched and glad to read how helpful you've found Nina's books and translations of A.Sujin's books. ***** Charles, I'm not sure that you'll find these comments very helpful, but they are the ones that come to mind when I read your introduction carefully. Of course, others here (especially the 'meditators') would have very different comments and I encourage them to add their own to your letter #80517. Thank you again for giving me this opportunity to reflect on what you write. Very best wishes for the publication of your book. Please send any further short sections here or to my personal account to forward (a page or two at most at a time) for any further comments. Metta, Sarah ======== #80608 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 11:22 pm Subject: Re: the importance of practice kenhowardau Dear Venerable Sir, Oh yes, sorry, now I see the point you were making. (I should have seen it the first time.) While K Sujin is often prepared to discuss knotty issues involving the finer points of Abhidhamma, she will at other times just remind people there are only dhammas. Just like the ones arising now :-) I can't pretend to know what decides which way she will answer a question, but I have my theories. If the Abhidhamma ever seems problematical or confusing I think it is because we are forgetting there are only dhammas. At other times, when this basic right understanding is in place, Dhamma study is smooth sailing all the way. Ken H > What I am arguing against is that Dhamma discussions with Ajan Sujin - > from my own experience both live and on CD - are dominated by a > continual question and answer session about the precise meaning of Pali > terms.The discussions become a Pali class and actual Dhamma discussion > is minimal.Many of the terms for which clarification is sought refer to > phenomena that only a Buddha can experience. And the more these > questions grip hold of the group,the further away from the reality of > the present moment the group becomes. > Ajan Sujin is so patient and fully aware of what is happening; she > keeps asking the question "But what about NOW?" But I think the point > she is making is missed and, within minutes,such questioning begins > again. > My purpose in writing these e-mails is to draw attention to this and > try to encourage our Dhamma friends to redress the imbalance by > practicing as much as possible - every moment is the ideal.Only then > can we progress in the Lord Buddha's Dhamma. > We only need just as much information as is helpful to us right now! > Pariyatti(theory)and patipatti(practice)must go together. > #80609 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 2:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] the importance of practice nilovg Venerable Pannabahulo, thank you for your kind words. It may seem that there are many technical questions, but in between we have ample opportunity to ask about satipatthana in daily life. Like recently in India. We really talked a lot on this subject. I posted some parts called "India" here, and I wish I had more time to share, but too much work on hand. Sometimes it is good to go into details because when we read the texts ourselves things may not be clear and lead to confusion. It may even influence wrong practice. But it depends on the individual how much detail he is interested in. As Ken H said: If the Abhidhamma ever seems problematical or confusing I think it is because we are forgetting there are only dhammas. Yes, and how we are forgetting this! Kh Sujin keeps on reminding us: everything is dhamma. Even reading, considering, yes, even asking questions and understanding them or not understanding them. Also when we are puzzled and things are not clear: different cittas and these are mere dhammas. If we are not reminded we get lost. Everything is dhamma: it arises because of conditions and is beyond control, non-self. I appreciate that you sincerely speak about your feelings as to what you heard on the audio. As you know, reactions and critizism is always welcome. It gives us also an opportunity to consider the Dhamma. I am so happy you are able to correspond now and I wish you a complete recovery. With respect, Nina. Op 30-dec-2007, om 1:07 heeft pannabahulo het volgende geschreven: > Here I would like to show my respect and gratitude to Nina for her > remarks made in Kashmir (On one of the India "Dhamma Discussions" CDs > that I listened to in Myanmar). Amidst the continual academic quest > for terminological information, Nina talked openly and honestly about > the aversion she felt when she saw the state of the houseboat's > toilets; and also about her concern for her husband. Thank you Nina: > Thank you for your honesty. #80610 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 2:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy jonoabb Hi Robert A Robert wrote: > Hello Jon (and Howard), > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott > wrote: > >> Although paramattha dhammas are arising all the time, they are not >> seen for what they are unless they are the object of consciousness >> that is accompanied by panna of the level of insight. > > Robert A: So, what conditions the arising of panna of the level of insight > as an accompaniment to the object of consciousness? I suspect you will > say it is listening to Dhamma. Anything else or is that it? There are many conditions mentioned in the suttas and other texts. Perhaps the one most often mentioned, in one form or another, is hearing/listening to the dhamma, which I take to mean having the opportunity to hear the teachings explained in a manner that is appropriate to our particular level of understanding and/or particular wrong view. Now this could be in listening to a talk given by someone whose understanding is much better than one's own (a "teacher"), or in discussion with one's dhamma peers, or when reading a book, or in any other way. However, I do not see it as meaning (the conventionally understood idea of) deliberately listening or reading, etc, -- it refers to an opportune occasion rather than a specific activity. This of course presupposes an interest in the teachings in the first place, and not only that but one that is based on a correct understanding of the teachings. Another often-mentioned condition is that what has been heard should be reflected on. This I take to refer to the kind of reflexive (no pun intended!) thinking that is driven by a deeply held interest in the subject matter, rather than by a deliberate pondering undertaken with the idea of creating conditions or as part of a "practice". One example might be the kind of thinking about an ongoing dhamma discussion that one catches oneself doing from time to time during the day. Another factor/condition mentioned in the texts is "meritorious deeds done in the past". This I take to refer particularly to one's understanding of the teachings on insight as developed in previous lives. Without a certain level of accumulated understanding, there would be no interest of the necessary kind in the first place. But given that there must have been a degree of such understanding developed in the past, it is a matter of its being prompted to arise by appropriate conditions. Dhammas are arising now, but are not seen as they truly are. It is the dhammas that are arising right now that are begin spoken of in the suttas, not those that may occur at some later time. With the right conditions, there can be the beginning of awareness of a presently arising dhamma. To my understanding, this awareness will occur at a time, and with an object, not of our own choosing. Jon #80611 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 2:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] ideation sarahprocter... Hi Robert A, (Ven Pannabahulo & all), --- Robert wrote: > We have come to our usual impasse, but getting to this point is always > useful for me. Every time we do it, I get to look at the question from > a > slightly different perspective and that always leaves me with something > to work with going forward. ... S: Yes, likewise. ... > > S: The 'preparation' is the careful consideration of dhammas now, > > regardless of our circumstances. This has to be a consideration with > > understanding and detachment, not a trying to understand or a > wishing for > > any particular result. > > .... > > Robert A: So, things such as generousity, virtue, or patience have no > bearing on the development of this capacity for clear seeing? I believe > what you are saying is that these are qualities that arise as a result > of clear seeing, not things that promote its development. Only the >careful consideration of dhammas can do that. ... S: Yes, I think this is right. Any factors may be a support, but only the listening (wise study) and careful consideration will lead to the development of right understanding. Many teachings stress generosity, virtue and patience. However, without the development of right understanding, it will always be someone's generosity and so on. When we were last in Bangkok, K.Sujin was stressing that we cannot even say that listening AND the devlopment of the perfections are the essential conditions for right understanding. Just listening, she repeated, no need to add anything else. This is because the perfections develop with right understanding. She was also stressing the need to really consider the terms we use carefully as the teachings are so subtle. It's easy to read all the suttas with an idea of what one should do. This is where the commentaries and detail helps a lot. ... > Robert A: Listening to Dhamma is something 'you' choose to do and > sometimes 'you' go to great lengths to do it, such as traveling to > Bangkok or India to see Khun Sujin and listen to her speak. You do this > for a purpose, which is to aid this development of clear seeing we have > been talking about. ... S: This is all true in a conventional sense. However, in terms of ultimate realities, there are just the different kinds of dhammas arising, performing their functions and falling away. This is the same regardless of the activity. I go to Bangkok or India because there is some inclination to do so certainly. For 2 or 3 years a while back, I was very ill and also working very hard and unable to travel. It didn't concern me in the slightest and it certainly never occurred to me that 'my practice' was any the worse off. Dhammas are just as real whether at home, sick in bed or working, as in India! [Actually, Jon is the one who is always keen to go to India and I'm the one who tags along, if the truth be known!!] ... > Robert A: So, you are saying someone totally lost in a typical modern > life is going to hear Dhamma and from this the beginning of samma > ditthi will arise. .... S: It depends on conditions. Most people never get to hear Dhamma and those who do have little interest. Again it depends on accumulations and many conditions from the past as well as at the present. When we read about the great disciples of the Buddha, they had been accumulating their interest and careful consideration of the Dhamma for aeons and kalpas under numerous Buddhas. Nothing is by chance, even the hearing of Dhamma. .... > Here is where we go separate ways. I would say that this person can > hear about the Noble Eightfold Path, hear about samma samkappa, and > resolve to change the way he lives his life to bring more renunciation, > lovingkindness, and compassion into it. You would say there is > no 'him', only dhammas, and so as soon as he makes this kind of > resolution, he is gone to self-view and all is lost. .... S: Even at the moment of resovling to change his way of life, it is just a kind of thinking which is conditioned and doesn't belong to any self. Yes, there really are only dhammas. If there's an idea of 'my resolution', 'my change of life', 'my practice', it is self-view, not detachment from what has arisen. This discussion is very relevant to 'now' and the concerns Ven P. raises. The most important thing is the understanding that it's not 'my practice', 'my depression', 'my mental states' arising. Otherwise, the practice just leads to more and more obsession with Self, rather than detachment from all dhammas appearing. .... > Yet, if you resolve to travel to Bangkok to hear Khun Sujin speak, this > somehow is magically exempt from the self-view trap that makes all > other volitional actions not useful. .... S: It always comes back to the present dhammas. If there is an idea that hearing her (or anyone else) speak will bring about wisdom then and there, it's wrong. The whole idea of choosing to go to Bangkok and so on is a long, long story. This isn't what is meant by 'listening to the teachings'. One word or phrase heard and carefully considered with wise attention is 'listening'. We never know the others' cittas or intentions when they read or listen or ask questions. We can only ever know our own cittas, or own intentions at such times. .... > Robert A: Listening and careful consideration of dhammas and nothing > else, so practicing right speech and right action has no bearing on the > matter. You would say that right speech and right action arose from the > clear seeing, not aided in its development. .... S: Anything can be a support (even unwholesome dhammas), but yes, I agree that the right speech and action develop as a result of 'clear seeing' or right understanding. Otherwise, again, they're 'my' right speech, 'my' good deeds. ... > > S: I'd say that understanding and 'clear seeing' are the same. Of > course > > there are degrees and different kinds of such understanding > or 'seeing'. > > .... > I am not sure I agree with this. I have always had the belief that > there > is a quality of awareness that is a condition for understanding and this > is > what I call 'clear seeing'. ... S: Again, right understanding is the condition for right awareness to develop. It is right understanding which can know when there is and isn't awareness. Only by clearly knowing what the quality of right awareness is and when it arises, can it develop firmer and stronger. .... >I also believe that there are things you > can > do, such as change the way you live your life, to aid the development of > this quality of awareness. In the end, this remains the key to our > disagreement. .... S: Yes. I see that however we live our life, there are just dhammas dependent on conditions. Thinking about changing that lifestyle is just thinking, yet another dhamma to be known. It really does come back to 'NOW' as I think both you and Ven P. will agree. ... > Yes, listening and considering, but I am afraid I am not ready to > concede that there is nothing else beyond listening and considering. ..... S: At least you appreciate the value in listening/study and considering which is very important. .... > I believe you and Nina have done all you can to help me resolve this > question and from here I will have to work it out for myself. But I > thank > you very much for your assistance in at least clarifying the question. > > Have a very Happy New Year. You in Hong Kong have the good fortune > to be able to celebrate New Years a couple of times every year. > ... S: Thank you for all your clarifications. I enjoy these discussions a lot because I think they're very useful for us all. This is all bhavana or meditation, reflecting and beginning to understand dhammas appearing now, such as visible object or sound or thinking. And yes, we do have a lot of New Years ....not only these New Years, but the Handover New Year, the Chinese national day New Year....all with grander and grander fireworks over the harbour and covering all the buildings......(usually all too late for us .....I'm not sure we've ever seen a New Year in!!) Lots of stories about colourful concepts! Have a Happy and Wise New Year too! Metta, Sarah ========= #80612 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 2:49 am Subject: Re: Vijnanavada [Re: [dsg] Re: Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (3)] sarahprocter... Hi Howard (& Alex & all), --- upasaka@... wrote: > But the "particulate, discrete, film-frame" view of anicca espoused > by > the students of Khun Sujin (and in some Mahayanist writings, and by > some other > Theravadins including a number of American "insight meditation" > teachers > such as Joseph Goldstein) doesn't seem to me to appear in the Tipitaka. > In > particular, I don't recall having seen it in suttas. Is it widespread > in the > suttas, and can you provide clear examples of it in the Buddha's > teaching? .... S: Looking at the first sutta in Salayatanavagga, SN, 'The impermanent', it refers to how the inner ayatanas, such as eye-sense, body-sense and mind (i.e cittas) are impermanent. Because they are impermanent, they are dukkha and anatta. Understanding such dhammas and their characteristics is the way to become dispassionate or detached from what is conditioned and thereby liberated. By implication the outer ayatanas are also included. These consist of visible objects and so on, tangible objects, subtle rupas and cetasikas. All are impermanent. As soon as any dhammas arise, they fall away immediately. This is the only meaning of the characteristic of anicca in the Buddha's teachings. Other ideas we have are conventional ideas only. .... > Howard: >.....I am rather much of a radical "annica-ist" (or > "non-remainderist"). But I shy away from "atomism", as I see it as a > form of discrete realism that reifies and solidifies and misses the >true radical, middle-way insubstantialism of reality. .... S: !! That may take a few New Years for me to come to terms with, lol! I'll look forward to the Cliff's notes:-). Metta, Sarah ======== #80613 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 2:48 am Subject: Are You Endorsing Formal Practice of Samatha and Vipassanaa? Re: the importance abhidhammika Dear Pannabahulo Bhikkhu How are you? I received your off-list e-mail. Thank you for that. I will address, at a later date, the issues from that e-mail and a recent post sent here for me. In this post, I merely want to highlight your statements crucially relevant to your position with regard to formal practice of samatha and vipassanaa. The most important statements you made so far were the following. _________________________________________________________ "practicing as much as possible - every moment is the ideal" in the paragraph: "My purpose in writing these e-mails is to draw attention to this and try to encourage our Dhamma friends to redress the imbalance by practicing as much as possible - every moment is the ideal.Only then can we progress in the Lord Buddha's Dhamma." "We only need just as much information as is helpful to us right now! Pariyatti(theory)and patipatti(practice)must go together." _____________________________________________________________ By the above statements, are you endorsing the importance of formal practice of samatha and vipassanaa? Here, the term 'practice of samatha' refers to the formal development of the Right Concentration (Sammaasamaadhi). If you could answer the above question to my satisfaction, then I would be able to resolve eaisly the other issues you raised in your e-mails both on-list and off-list. By the way, the names 'Suan' and 'Abhidhammika' refers to the same selfless individual responsible for the pronoun 'I' in this post. With five-fold touch bow, Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "pannabahulo" wrote: > > Dear Ken, My purpose in writing these e-mails is to draw attention to this and try to encourage our Dhamma friends to redress the imbalance by practicing as much as possible - every moment is the ideal.Only then can we progress in the Lord Buddha's Dhamma. We only need just as much information as is helpful to us right now! Pariyatti(theory)and patipatti(practice)must go together. With metta to you and every blessing, Pannabahulo Bhikkhu #80614 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 3:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga, was Anatta as a strategy nilovg Hi James, Op 30-dec-2007, om 3:41 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > If jhana is predominately for monks then > everything in the Vism. is predominately for monks. The Vism. is a > whole and each section is connected (not like an encyclopedia). It > starts out with sila (the first step); then how to cultivate jhana > (the second step); and then ends with the insight which will result > from jhana cultivation (the third step). It is a path of practice: > thus the name: The Path of Purification. > Do you seriously believe that householders can just read the last > section about insight, study and discuss the last section about > insight, and then that would give them the insight? Does anything in > the Vism. suggest such a thing? ------- N: As to these steps, people tend to oversimplify matters: keep first the precepts, than develop mindfulness of breathing and when the hindrances are discarded develop insight. In practice, it does not work this way. Understanding is needed all along. If we do not know what is kusala and what akusala how could we observe the precepts? Moreover, in the Ch on siila, all these aspects imply understanding, even at the level of satipatthaana. Also for the development of samaadhi, understanding is needed: one has to know when the citta is kusala and when akusala. You write: No, there is more to it. There are many factors that can condition insight. As I wrote to Robert A: < Before we came into contact with the teachings we did not know much about kusala and akusala. Then, by reading and listening we learnt more about kusala and akusala, we came to understand the disadvantage of akusala and the benefit of kusala. I quote what I wrote formerly: We read in the (Expositor p. 100): As to the word 'bent on' , the Pali has: pari.naamita, bend to, change into. There can be a change from akusala to kusala if one understands the right conditions to be cultivated. An abundance of right reflection is also a condition for kusala. We need good friends who give us stimulating talks. We then read that the Tiika refers to the four wheels that are favorable conditions for the arising of kusala citta with right understanding. These four wheels are: living in a suitable place, association with noble persons, right aspiration, and meritorious deeds formerly done. (See AN IV, 4, 1, The Wheel).> Let us go to the beginning of the Vis.: ‘When a wise man, established well in Virtue, ‘Develops Consciousness and Understanding, ‘Then as a bhikkhu ardent and sagacious ‘He succeeds in disentangling this tangle’ (S.i,13) ------- The Vis. gives a comment: Wise : possessing the kind of understanding that is born of kamma by means of a rebirth-linking with triple root- cause. This means: someone who is born with non-attachment, non-aversion and wisdom or pa~n~naa. So, this is a condition stemming from the past, past kamma. There are many levels of siila, samaadhi and pa~n~naa, from the lowest to the highest. They are intertwined. When developing insight siila is not given up, it becomes more accomplished. When enlightenment is attained, concentration is of the strength of jhaana, also for those who did not cultivate mundane jhaana. The Vis: 14. Likewise the reason for the states of Stream-entry and Once- return is shown by Virtue; that for the state of Non-return, by Concentration; that for Arahantship, by Understanding. For the Stream-enterer is called ‘Perfected in the ‘kinds of virtue’; and likewise the Once-returner. But the Non-returner is called ‘Perfected in concentration’. And the Arahant is called ‘Perfected in understanding’ (See A.i, 233). This to show that it is an oversimplification to think of three steps. Too many apects and degrees are involved. Take this text : This text implies three levels of akusala: the coarse akusala, evil deeds, akusala citta, medium defilement and then the inherent tendencies, subtle defliements. Inherent tendencies are eradicated at the stages of enlightenment. Thus, a straight answer to your question: yes or no, is not possible. When one sees the benefit of kusala there is already a foundation for siila, that is right. Then one will be inclined to develop kusala and also understanding of the conditions for kusala. -------- Nina. #80615 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 3:24 am Subject: [dsg] Re: A Note on the Hindrances as Discussed in AN 5.51 kenhowardau Hi Howard, --------- H: > But, of course, momentariness wasn't the point of my post. :-) As far as that is concerned, though, if you mean that the hindrances don't remain, I certainly agree. The Buddha taught that in the suttas, and if it weren't true, we'd "be in a pickle"! ;-) ---------- I did not mean "the hindrances don't remain" in the conventional sense of not remaining. In conventional reality hindrances remain for a period of time and then fade away. This is not what the Buddha taught. On the contrary, this is an atta-based kind of non-remaining. Therefore it is something that the Buddha specifically denied. ------------------ H: > If, on the other hand, you are referring to the theory of moments, that's commentarial, not suttic. (I don't know it to be false, though I disbelieve it.) ------------------- I don't know how you can say that. After all the explanations and all the sutta quotes you have been given during your years at DSG, I don't know how you can continue to insist the theory of moments is "commentarial, not suttic." ------------------------- H: > > > We can make of this what we will. KH: > >Let's be careful we don't make something conventional out of it. :-) H: > What direct view you have that is not conventional? You speak as if from the mountaintop. ------------------------- I do not speak that way at all. I am simply telling you what I believe is in the texts. It has nothing to do with "me" or "my direct view." --------------------------------- H: > In any case, my point was that the hindrances are referred to in this sutta as obstacles to awareness and discernment, and concentration isn't discussed at all. ---------------------------------- I wouldn't even think of interpreting a sutta without expert help. But I know that the hindrances are akusala, and I have some idea of the dangers of akusala. I can see how they lead to more akusala and less kusala (including less sati and panna). So I wouldn't be surprised if that was what the sutta was saying. I would be very, very surprised if it was saying that satipatthana requires a special state-of-mind to be prepared for it in advance. --------------- KH: > > The Dhamma is not conventional, it is a description of ultimate reality. Howard: > That's great, Ken. ;-) But I have no clue why you raise that again in this regard. Do you just play that tune at any opportunity? ---------------- Yes and no. I do think it is a tune for all occasions, but it was especially relevant on this occasion. You were asserting a conventional side to the Dhamma. You were saying (in effect) that the conventionally known mind (one that persists for a period of time) can be calmed to a state where it is ready for insight. In ultimate reality the mind lasts for one moment only, and the necessary calming takes place in the same moment as the insight. --------------- H: > All that I will say with assurance is that on the basis of this, it is an error to see the hindrances solely as obstacles to concentration. ---------------- Yes, I have agreed with that in certain contexts. Kusala dhammas cannot arise in the same citta as akusala dhammas. ----------------------- <. . .> Howard: > The observing of hindrances is done early in meditation until they are weakened sufficiently to progress further. ------------------------ I must admit that is an interesting theory. Are you saying the hindrances can be known with a weak degree of panna, while only kusala dhammas can be known with high degrees of panna? ---------------------------------- H: > Meditation is a process, not an instantaneous phenomenon. In order for jhana to be realized, the hindrances do need to be suppressed/mollified, but they are still present at least in passive form. They have to be seen and known for what they are in order to reduce their impact, and this pertains not only to meditation but to all occasions. In this sutta, the Buddha said "Sensual desire is an obstacle, a hindrance that overwhelms awareness and weakens discernment. Ill will... Sloth & drowsiness... Restlessness & anxiety... Uncertainty is an obstacle, a hindrance that overwhelms awareness and weakens discernment. These are the five obstacles, hindrances that overwhelm awareness and weaken discernment. And when a monk has not abandoned these five obstacles, hindrances that overwhelm awareness and weaken discernment, when he is without strength and weak in discernment: for him to understand what is for his own benefit, to understand what is for the benefit of others, to understand what is for the benefit of both, to realize a superior human state, a truly noble distinction in knowledge & vision: that is impossible." ------------------------------------ Without the ancient commentaries (and someone to explain the ancient commentaries) I wouldn't attempt to interpret a sutta. I have been caught out too many times! ------------------ H: > Without the weakening of hindrances, awareness and discernment are *overwhelmed*, and mental cultivation is impossible. These hindrances have to be seen for what they are and weakened, suppressed, or put aside in order for there to be the arising of awareness and discernment strong enough to eventually uproot the hindrances along with all the defilements. Look at what the Buddha said, Ken, with regard to not getting the hindrances out of the way: If one has not done so, "for him to understand what is for his own benefit, to understand what is for the benefit of others, to understand what is for the benefit of both, to realize a superior human state, a truly noble distinction in knowledge & vision: that is impossible". As for Buddhist meditation, vipassana and samatha co-occur in what is typically Buddhist meditation, --------------------------- OK, that is your interpretation, but I don't think you will find it in the ancient commentaries. ------------------------- H: > and the jhanas involved are not trance states, but states of heightened calm and clarity and insight. ------------------------- I agree, genuine jhana is certainly not a trance. It is the concentrated arising of panna - the kind of panna that knows kusala from akusala. It is not, however, the arising of Buddhist panna - the kind of panna that knows nama from rupa (etc). ------------------- KH: > > That doesn't mean that the hindrance does not perform the functions described in the sutta, of course. It just means that, once it has arisen and performed its functions and fallen away it can, immediately after, be taken as an object of insight. Howard: > Once a hindrance "performs its function," a rote phrase you are in love with, it BLOCKS progress! That IS its function. That is why they are referred to as hindrances and obstacles. And it isn't that "damnable concentration" that is pointed to here as being blocked, but awareness and discernment, the sine qua non for awakening. --------------------- It momentarily blocks progress. Any belief in a persisting block is atta belief. --------------------------- <. . .> KH: > > I think you are talking about conventional reality again. Howard: > I'm talking about reality ... period. Trotting out the old dray horse of "conventional reality" doesn't do the job, Ken. --------------------------- Of course it does! Learning the difference between concepts and realities is the first step towards right understanding. It cannot be skipped. ---------------------- KH: > > We need to talk about one or the other: the two do not mix. Howard: > The only way to do that is to neither speak nor write nor think. ----------------------- I don't know why you would say that. Ken H #80616 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 3:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Real Dhamma (from Htoo) sarahprocter... Hi Larry, --- Larry wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > I was thinking of Htoo just the other day. I wanted to index his series > on CMA titled > "Dhamma Talk 1, 2, etc." but I couldn't get the search engine to give me > a complete list of > his posts. If he is back maybe he could give us an in-depth discussion > of this subject. .... S: That would be nice, but he's not really 'back'. I think I can say that 'the problem' is due to his returning to his home country where internet access is very difficult indeed for many reasons (political, economic, etc). I'll forward your kind note to him and I'm sure he'll reply if he can. I just put 'dhamma talk htoo' in the dsg website here and got 688 entries! Another possible place for you to check with a search is on www.dhammastudygroup.org. Try the google search there perhaps. Maybe we could start an 'in-depth discussion' of the points together? Metta, Sarah ====== #80617 From: "pannabahulo" Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 3:41 am Subject: Am I endorsing the importance of formal meeeditation practice? pannabahulo Hi there Suan, It's great to meet you on-line like this. I also have the two name syndrome i.e. Pannabahulo Bhikkhu to some, Phra Alan to others. I understand. Your question hinges on what is meant by "formal meditation practice'. I equate formal practice with set meditation systems. However, I think such systems do have a valid place but personally I have moved away from them. You first quote me as saying: "practicing as much as possible - every moment is the ideal" in the paragraph: "My purpose in writing these e-mails is to draw attention to this and try to encourage our Dhamma friends to redress the imbalance by practicing as much as possible - every moment is the ideal.Only then can we progress in the Lord Buddha's Dhamma." "We only need just as much information as is helpful to us right now! Pariyatti(theory)and patipatti(practice)must go together." And then you move on to ask By the above statements, are you endorsing the importance of formal practice of samatha and vipassanaa? Here, the term 'practice of samatha' refers to the formal development of the Right Concentration (Sammaasamaadhi). If you could answer the above question to my satisfaction, then I would be able to resolve eaisly the other issues you raised in your e-mails both on-list and off-list. I can best answer this by quoting from the interview - with my current teacher - that was posted along with my letter. The article is an interview between the American Buddhist magazine 'Tricycle' and the Ven Sayadaw U Tejiniya: ------------------------------------------------------------------------\ ------------------------------------------------------------------------\ -------- You seem to emphasize practicing mindfulness in everyday life as opposed to sitting meditation. Can you say something about that? This is basically what the Buddha wanted, for people to practice all the time. I'm just advertising the Buddha's words. Sitting meditation can still be part of the practice. I emphasize mindfulness in daily life because people neglect that so much, and it's a very helpful, valid practice—especially when there's not that much time to sit. What role, then, does sitting meditation play? I often say that it's not the posture that's meditating; it's the mind. That's how I understand meditation. How do you define meditation? It's cultivating good qualities in the mind. It's making conditions right so good qualities can arise. If, while sitting, you're dreaming up things the mind can feel greedy about, I don't call that meditation. That's why I say that the mind working to do the meditation is more important than the posture. But people associate the word "meditation" with "sitting." The two words have become synonymous, but this is a mistake. There are two kinds of meditation. In samatha [calm abiding], you need to sit and be still. My emphasis is Vipassana [insight meditation]. For Vipassana practice, sitting is not necessary. The purpose of practicing Vipassana is to cultivate wisdom. To what end? We cultivate wisdom to understand, to see clearly, to know. You don't remove the defilements; wisdom does. ------------------------------------------------------------------------\ ------------------------------------------------------------------------\ ----- I hope that this helps to clarify what I now understand as 'meditation'. What thinkest thou now? I look forward to hearing from you further. Take good care Suan and have a very happy and peacefull New Year. With metta, pannabahulo Bhikkhu #80618 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 3:47 am Subject: Perfections Corner (68) nichiconn Dear All, http://www.zolag.co.uk/ - The Perfections Leading to Enlightenment by Sujin Boriharnwanaket; translated by Nina van Gorkom. Chapter 9: The Perfection of Loving-kindness (continued) True mettaa is extended to beings and people whoever they are and wherever they may be. If someone has accumulated mettaa, he will be ready to assist other people time and again. Mettaa is a "divine abiding", brahmavihaara, that is, a dhamma which is a sublime way of abiding. We read in the "Basket of Conduct" that the citta of the Great Being, the Bodhisatta, could without difficulty become established in calm, because he could quickly extend loving-kindness even towards his enemies. Someone may at times be irritated about others, he may believe that particular persons obstruct his own welfare in various ways. However, if he accumulates kusala and has the determination to eradicate defilements, his citta will without difficulty become established in calm. He will quickly be able to extend mettaa even to his enemies. If we become angry with someone, we should know that anger arises only for a short moment and then falls away, and that mettaa can arise instead. When we have accumulated the perfections we can become like the Bodhisatta who could without difficulty be established in mettaa and extend it quickly towards his enemies. We should verify for ourselves whether we are angry with someone else for a long time or not. If we can have mettaa instead, it shows that we have accumulated the inclination to eradicate defilements. Loving-kindness, mettaa, is one of the divine abidings, brahmavihaaras. There are four of them: loving-kindness, mettaa, compassion, karu.naa, sympathetic joy, muditaa and equanimity, upekkhaa. Mettaa is adosa cetasika, the reality of non-hate or non-aversion. Compassion is karu.naa cetasika, which arises when one supports someone else, wanting to alleviate his suffering and trouble. Sympathetic joy is muditaa cetasika, which arises when one rejoices in someone else's happiness. Equanimity, upekkhaa, is tatramajjhattataa cetasika, evenmindedness which is the absence of attachment and aversion. It arises when one understands the true nature of anattaa, non-self. == to be continued, connie #80619 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 3:49 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (72) nichiconn dear Friends, Part 18 15. Cattaaliisanipaato 1. Isidaasiitheriigaathaava.n.nanaa 434. "Atha ma.m bha.natii taato, paapu.na bodhi~nca aggadhamma~nca; nibbaana~nca labhassu, ya.m sacchikarii dvipadase.t.tho. 432. Then my father said to me, "Attain awakening and the foremost Doctrine, and obtain quenching, which the Best of Men realized." Bodhinti saccaabhisambodhi.m, magga~naa.nanti attho. Aggadhammanti phaladhamma.m, arahatta.m. Ya.m sacchikarii dvipadase.t.thoti ya.m maggaphalanibbaanasa~n~nita.m lokuttaradhamma.m dvipadaana.m se.t.tho sammaasambuddho sacchi akaasi, ta.m labhassuuti yojanaa. 432. Awakening (bodhi.m) means: the perfect awakening to the [four] truths, the knowledge of the paths. That is the meaning. The foremost Doctrine (agga-dhamma.m) of Arahatship. Which the Best of Men (dvi-pada-se.t.tho), the Fully and Perfectly Awakened One, realized for himself. Obtain that; that is the implication. 435. "Maataapituu abhivaada, yitvaa sabba~nca ~naatiga.navagga.m; sattaaha.m pabbajitaa, tisso vijjaa aphassayi.m. 433. I saluted my mother and father and all the group of my relatives, and seven days after going forth, I attained the three knowledges. Sattaaha.m pabbajitaati pabbajitaa hutvaa sattaahena. Aphassayinti phusi.m sacchaakaasi.m. 433. Seven days (sattaaha.m) after going forth means: having gone forth for seven days (sattaahena), I attained (aphassayi.m) means: I attained (phusi.m), I realized. 436. "Jaanaami attano satta, jaatiyo yassaya.m phalavipaako; ta.m tava aacikkhissa.m, ta.m ekamanaa nisaamehi. 434. I know my [last] seven births. I shall relate to you this [action] of which this is the fruit and result. Listen to it with attentive mind. Yassaya.m phalavipaakoti yassa paapakammassa, aya.m saamikassa amanaapabhaavasa"nkhaato nissandaphalabhuuto vipaako. Ta.m tava aacikkhissanti ta.m kamma.m tava kathessaami. Tanti aacikkhiyamaana.m tameva kamma.m, ta.m vaa mama vacana.m. Ekamanaati ekaggamanaa. Ayameva vaa paa.tho. 434. Of which (yass') this is the fruit and result (phala-vipaako) means: of which (yassa) evil action this is the result (vipaako), being the consequence and fruit (nissanda-phala-bhuuto) that is called the state of [being considered] unpleasant by my husband. I shall relate to you this [action] means: with concentrated mind (ek'-agga-manaa). Or this is an [alternative] reading. 437. "Nagaramhi erakacche, suva.n.nakaaro aha.m pahuutadhano; yobbanamadena matto, so paradaara.m aseviha.m. 435. In the city of Erakaccha I was a goldsmith, possessing much wealth. Intoxicated by the pride of my youth, I had sexual intercourse with another's wife. Nagaramhi erakaccheti eva.mnaamake nagare. So paradaara.m asevihanti so aha.m parassa daara.m asevi.m. 435. In the city (nagaramhi) of Erakaccha means: in the city (nagare) having such a name. I ('ham) had sexual intercourse (asevi) with another's wife (para-daara.m) means: I (aha.m) had sexual intercourse (asevi.m) with another's (parassa) wife (daara.m). ..to be continued, connie #80620 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 4:56 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga, was Anatta as a strategy buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > ------- > N: As to these steps, people tend to oversimplify matters: keep first > the precepts, than develop mindfulness of breathing and when the > hindrances are discarded develop insight. In practice, it does not > work this way. James: Why does it not work this way? Isn't this what the Vism. teaches? You are making a statement with no support. > Understanding is needed all along. If we do not know what is kusala > and what akusala how could we observe the precepts? James: We can observe them because the Buddha taught them: No killing, stealing, lying, sexual misconduct, abuse of intoxicants. That is what he taught. He didn't say: Only observe the precepts if you have "understanding" of them- that's ridiculous! Moreover, in the > Ch on siila, all these aspects imply understanding, even at the level > of satipatthaana. Also for the development of samaadhi, understanding > is needed: one has to know when the citta is kusala and when akusala. James: This is a basic type of understanding which can only come about through practice. Nina, have you read the Vism.? You keep talking about it but you don't quote any material to support what you say. > You write: the last section about insight, study and discuss the last section > about insight, and then that would give them the insight? > > No, there is more to it. There are many factors that can condition > insight. As I wrote to Robert A: < Before we came into contact with > the teachings we did not know much > about kusala and akusala. Then, by reading and listening we learnt > more about kusala and akusala, we came to understand the disadvantage > of akusala and the benefit of kusala. I quote what I wrote formerly: > We read in the (Expositor p. 100): > 'determined' for moral acts, 'bent' only on moral acts by inhibiting > immoral acts, well 'trained' by constant practice of good.> > As to the word 'bent on' , the Pali has: pari.naamita, bend to, > change into. There can be a change from akusala to kusala if one > understands the right conditions to be cultivated. An abundance of > right reflection is also a condition for kusala. We need good friends > who give us stimulating talks. > We then read that the Tiika refers to the four wheels that are > favorable conditions for the arising of kusala citta with right > understanding. These four wheels are: living in a suitable place, > association with noble persons, right aspiration, and meritorious > deeds formerly done. (See AN IV, 4, 1, The Wheel).> > > Let us go to the beginning of the Vis.: > > `When a wise man, established well in Virtue, > > `Develops Consciousness and Understanding, > > `Then as a bhikkhu ardent and sagacious > > `He succeeds in disentangling this tangle' (S.i,13) > ------- > The Vis. gives a comment: Wise : possessing the kind of understanding > that is born of kamma by means of a rebirth-linking with triple root- > cause. > This means: someone who is born with non-attachment, non-aversion and > wisdom or pa~n~naa. > So, this is a condition stemming from the past, past kamma. > There are many levels of siila, samaadhi and pa~n~naa, from the > lowest to the highest. They are intertwined. When developing insight > siila is not given up, it becomes more accomplished. When > enlightenment is attained, concentration is of the strength of > jhaana, also for those who did not cultivate mundane jhaana. James: I can see that you are trying to make an effort to explain yourself, and I appreciate that, but you aren't being specific. There are two types of right view: mundane right view and supramundane right view. You appear to be saying that supramundane right view must be present at all stages of the path- and that isn't true. > The Vis: > > 14. Likewise the reason for the states of Stream-entry and Once- > return is shown by Virtue; that for the state of Non-return, by > Concentration; that for Arahantship, by Understanding. For the > Stream-enterer is called `Perfected in the `kinds of virtue'; and > likewise the Once-returner. But the Non-returner is called `Perfected > in concentration'. And the Arahant is called `Perfected in > understanding' (See A.i, 233). > This to show that it is an oversimplification to think of three > steps. James: It doesn't show any such thing. Actually, this quote supports what I have said: that sila, samadhi, and understanding come in steps. Does arahant come before sotapanna? Too many apects and degrees are involved. > Take this text : > Virtue; prevention of obsession [by defilement] is shown by > Concentration; prevention of inherent tendencies is shown by > Understanding.> > This text implies three levels of akusala: the coarse akusala, evil > deeds, akusala citta, medium defilement and then the inherent > tendencies, subtle defliements. > Inherent tendencies are eradicated at the stages of enlightenment. > Thus, a straight answer to your question: yes or no, is not possible. > When one sees the benefit of kusala there is already a foundation for > siila, that is right. Then one will be inclined to develop kusala and > also understanding of the conditions for kusala. James: It is apparent to me that you confuse mundane right view with supramundane right view. > -------- > Nina. Metta, James #80621 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 5:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Letter_from_Pannabahulo (2) jonoabb Dear Ven Pannabahulo Thanks for taking the trouble to post such a detailed and carefully considered message. You've raised a number of interesting points for us to think about. I'd like to share my views on one or two of them. > When I went to Myanmar I took several of the DSG discussions with Ajan > Sujin that I had on CDs. These were recorded on various trips to India and > in Bangkok. What I heard really shook me. I found that most of these > Dhamma discussions were not really discussions at all; they were constant > requests for explanation and clarification of terminology. And most of the > group remained silent throughout. > This is a common reaction of those listening to the discussions for the first time. For most first-timers, there is no apparent link between the questions and the "practice" of the teachings. This I think reflects basic differences in understanding of what the "practice" of the teachings is ;-)). Of course, sometimes the questions are asked to clarify a point that has come up in discussion elsewhere (such as on this list), but even here there is usually some link to the present moment, if understood properly. > ... > Ajan Sujin does not share this ‘terminological’ perception of Dhamma. Her > approach is very practical. Her constant response to such questions is > “Yes, but what about NOW?” > You are right when you say that Ajarn Sujin's approach is very practical. But you may have noticed that, at the same time, she herself has an incredibly detailed knowledge of each of the 3 pitakas and their commentaries, including their most arcane parts. So she always has a fairly comprehensive answer for those "terminological" questions! > She also states that a lot of the terms that > people needed clarification on referred to phenomena that it is impossible > for us to know; only a Buddha can experience that sort of thing. So why > waste time asking questions that cannot be helpful to us in order that we > can free ourselves from Samsara? > Terms that cannot be, or are unlikely to be, directly known by us in this lifetime may still be important to know about. Ajarn Sujin herself often refers to such terms. Some examples would be: phassa, sanna, manasikara, chandha, nibbana, bhavanaga citta, patisandhi citta, cuti citta (most of these appear frequently in the suttas). Despite the fact that these dhammas may not be directly experienced by us, a (theoretical) knowledge of them may be useful if not indispensable. > We must also remember that the main reason given for the decline of the > Dhamma in India – and a major cause of the Theravada / Mahayana split – is > usually explained as being due to the fact that Dhamma practice had fallen > away into mere academic study. > Yes, I'm sure we are all agreed that the only good purpose for learning more about the teachings is as support for the practice. > On his deathbed the Lord Buddha said that the Dhamma-vinaya will “Be your > teacher after I am gone”. Vinaya just doesn’t mean the rules for monks and > nuns; it means the practice of Dhamma. If we look at the stories that > surrounded the forming of the vinaya in the Vinaya Pitaka, we get a very > clear picture of how a Dhamma practitioner should behave in word, action > and livelihood. The Lord Buddha did not teach ‘Buddhism’ he taught Dhamma > – vinaya! > Agreed! > I will give one example that came across very clearly from one of the CDs > recorded in India. I had been practicing at Shwe Oo Min for several weeks > when I suddenly observed, for myself, that it was lobha that was causing > dosa to arise in me. I have always thought of myself as a dosa person (The > predominant defilements being anger and depression). Now I saw that those > conditions arose because I wanted reality to be other than it was. Later I > learnt that, in turn, that dosa causes lobha. We want something other than > things as they are; then anger or aversion arises which makes us feel > miserable; so then we desire some kind of sensual stimulus to make us feel > better. (The whole ‘entertainment’ business thrives because of this). I > learnt this for myself by direct observation of the mind. Lobha, dosa, > lobha, dosa ad infinitum. > > But on one CD it is said that “We know that dosa is caused by Lobha.” But > this is academic learning and is not anywhere near as powerful as the > direct experience of it. In fact, it completely misses the second part of > the equation in that dosa is also a precondition of lobha. > I agree with your observation that when we feel miserable we may then desire some kind of sensual stimulus to make us feel better. But I think the conclusion that "dosa is also a precondition of lobha" goes further than that observation supports (and beyond what is found in the texts). From my understanding of the texts (theoretical though it may be!), while lobha is a precondition for dosa (i.e, without lobha for sense-objects there can be no dosa), it cannot be said that dosa is a precondition for lobha. Thus, the anagami has no more dosa yet still has clinging (for becoming). > ... > Ajan Sujin IS extremely mindful. I see tremendous similarities between > what she is teaching and the teachings of Sayadaw U Tejiniya. > My experience in Myanmar has given me a great sense of ‘Samvega’. By > seeing the state of the mind I carry there is a real feeling of urgency; I > am inspired to keep on working for it’s purification. > > If we concentrate only on the terminology of the Buddha’s teaching we are > in the field of linguistics or even mere history. The essential thing is > how best to apply the teachings so as to improve the quality of our minds. > As I said earlier, I think we are all agreed that the only useful purpose of study is to help understand about the development of insight. As you say, the real question is how the teachings are to be applied. This could be a useful topic for further discussion. > Finally, no one really knows what language(s) and/or dialects the Buddha > actually spoke. The word ‘Pali’ means ‘text’ so he certainly never spoke > Pali. It is widely assumed that he spoke a language that is similar to > Pali; but we just don’t know. > On the question of Pali terms, I would say it's a matter of individual preference, and I don't think there should be any rule. For example, the term "samvega" which you mention above. Somehow "sense of urgency" sounds inappropriate or inadequate, so most people stick to the Pali. By the way, would you agree that it would be useful to know exactly what is the mental state/mental factor that is represented by the term "samvega"? > ... > I hope that this is helpful to DSG members; I am full of admiration for > the way Ajan Sujin so patiently answers those terminological questions and > for the way DSG members are so attentive to what is going on. But we must > remember that it is the practice of the Dhamma that is of utmost > importance. > Again, I am with you on the importance of the practice of the teachings. I would look forward to hearing more from you on this subject, as I'm sure you have considered it deeply. > These are my thoughts and my conclusions. I will be happy to learn what > other members of DSG think and feel. > I thank you again for going to the trouble of writing. Best wishes for a continued recovery from your medical condition. Looking forward to seeing you again in Bangkok on a future visit. With respect Jon #80622 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 5:19 am Subject: Do You Endorse Formal Development Of Right Concentration (Sammaasamaadhi)? abhidhammika Dear Pannabahulo Bhikkhu How are you? Thank you for your prompt answer. In my original post, I wrote the following. "By the above statements, are you endorsing the importance of formal practice of samatha and vipassanaa? Here, the term 'practice of samatha' refers to the formal development of the Right Concentration (Sammaasamaadhi)." In your reply post, I did not see you answering and resolving the issue of the formal development of the Right Concentration (Sammaasamaadhi). Could you address this issue in unmistakable terms? Please kindly remember that Right Concentration is part of the Fourth Noble Truth. So, I expect you, a Theravada sama.na, to be clear about and serious about the Forth Noble Truth fully. Here, please notice the adverb `FULLY'. Now I ask you again - respectfully. Do you endorse formal development of the Right Concentration (Sammaasamaadhi)? While attempting to answer the above question, please do not refer to your contemporary teachers, ordained or otherwise. I expect you to refer to your Father only, Gotama the Buddha, if you sincerely regarded yourself as a Saakyaputto, the son of Saakyamuni. I hope that you have enough courage to declare yourself to be a true sama.no, a genuine Saakyaputto. Thanking you in advance. With five-fold-touch bow (reserved for a Saakyaputto) Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org #80623 From: "pannabahulo" Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 5:23 am Subject: a big thank you pannabahulo Dear Dhamma friends, I would like to say a big "Thank you" to all of you who have responded to my postings. I also want to thank all the DSG members who make this site work. I am learning a lot from my recent use of this and the replies to my postings. May all of you be well, happy and peacefull. With metta to you all, Pannabahulo Bhikkhu #80624 From: "robmoult" Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 5:27 am Subject: Re: Do "Dhammas" exist? Yes/No ? robmoult Hi All, I just received an off-line reply to this message which reads, "Well then, if dhammas are beyond existence and non-existence, how can they be real or unreal?" My point is that, in my opinion, the issue of real / unreal or existence / non-existence is outside of the Buddha's teaching. Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > > Hi Alex, > > In the Brahmajala Sutta (DN1), Sandaka Sutta (MN76), Kathavatthu > Sutta (A 10.69) and in many other places, the Buddha warned monks > about useless, idle, "beastly" talk (tiracchana-kathaa) which > includes discussions of "existence and non-existence" (iti- > bhavaabhava-kathaa). > > In the Culamalunkya Sutta (MN 63) and the Simsapa Sutta (SN 56.31), > the Buddha explains the purpose of the teaching, "Why have I left > [answers to speculative questions] undeclared? Because it is > unbeneficial, it does not belong to the fundamentals of the holy > life, it does not lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to > cessation, to peace, to direct knowledge, to enlightenment, to > Nibbana. That is why I have left it undeclared. And what have I > declared? 'This is suffering' – I have declared. 'This is the origin > of suffering' – I have declared. 'This is the cessation of > suffering' – I have declared. 'This is the way to the cessation of > suffering' – I have declared. Why have I declared that? Because it is > beneficial, it belongs to the fundamentals of the holy life, it leads > to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to peace, to direct > knowledge, to enlightenment, to Nibbana. That is why I have declared > it." > > While it is true that the speculative questions posed by > Malunkyaputta did not cover metaphysical ontological questions such > as you are asking, in my opinion, these types of discussion fall into > the category of useless, idle, "beastly" talk and are not connected > with the purpose of the teaching. > > Alex, I am playing "devil's advocate" here in the hopes that somebody > can provide sutta quotations to convince me that I am wrong. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" > wrote: > > > > Hello all, > > > > Quick Qs: > > 1) Does Citta exist? Yes/No > > 2) Does Cetasika exist? Yes/No > > 3) Does Rupa Exist? Yes/NO > > 4) Does Nibbana Exist? Yes/No > > > > > > Lots of Metta, > > > > Alex > > > #80625 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 12:42 am Subject: Re: Vijnanavada [Re: [dsg] Re: Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (3)] upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 12/30/2007 5:49:22 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Hi Howard (& Alex & all), --- upasaka@... wrote: > But the "particulate, discrete, film-frame" view of anicca espoused > by > the students of Khun Sujin (and in some Mahayanist writings, and by > some other > Theravadins including a number of American "insight meditation" > teachers > such as Joseph Goldstein) doesn't seem to me to appear in the Tipitaka. > In > particular, I don't recall having seen it in suttas. Is it widespread > in the > suttas, and can you provide clear examples of it in the Buddha's > teaching? .... S: Looking at the first sutta in Salayatanavagga, SN, 'The impermanent', it refers to how the inner ayatanas, such as eye-sense, body-sense and mind (i.e cittas) are impermanent. Because they are impermanent, they are dukkha and anatta. Understanding such dhammas and their characteristics is the way to become dispassionate or detached from what is conditioned and thereby liberated. By implication the outer ayatanas are also included. These consist of visible objects and so on, tangible objects, subtle rupas and cetasikas. All are impermanent. ------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Sarah, I ask about A and you answer about B! I never questioned impermanence, and there is no basis for acting as if I did. Impermanence is mere non-remaining. That is basic Dhamma, and of course I accept it. What Buddhist does not? ------------------------------------------------------------ As soon as any dhammas arise, they fall away immediately. ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: That, as I've said before, can be viewed as no different from continuous change, though it is not your take on it. But that issue aside, here you introduce your opinion instead of what is in the suttas. Actually, from the point of view of what I labeled a) and b) in a previous post, it is an opinion I share, but not in the particulate form that you accept. Where in the suttas does the Buddha assert that whatever exists does so only at an instant and immediately falling away (in the "next moment")? That would require that time proceed like the whole numbers, 1, 2, 3, 4, ..., as a sequence of discrete moments. That certainly isn't the temporal basis for modern physics, and it is a theory that is not part of our experience. But, of course it could be correct, and I would be interested in references to the Buddha teaching it. He certainly did talk about mind changing quickly, more quickly than material form, but that has no bearing on any formulation of a particulate view. In any case, it is examples of espousing the "particulate, discrete, film-frame" perspective in the suttas that I requested. There is no question, I believe, that commentarial material puts forth the notion of a mental continuum being a sequence of consecutive, discrete states, each starting sharply at a point in time, increasing, peaking, subsiding, and ending sharply at a point in time - one frame after another. Mahayana writings have run with this ball, and it appears among the writings of some of the western "insight meditation" folks as well. But I was asking for suttic references to that, not to impermanence. No one who is Buddhist rejects impermanence. ------------------------------------------------------------ This is the only meaning of the characteristic of anicca in the Buddha's teachings. Other ideas we have are conventional ideas only. -------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Sutta references to the discrete, film-frame theory were what I requested, Sarah, not assertions of belief. We all have beliefs. ------------------------------------------------------------- .... > Howard: >.....I am rather much of a radical "annica-ist" (or > "non-remainderist"). But I shy away from "atomism", as I see it as a > form of discrete realism that reifies and solidifies and misses the >true radical, middle-way insubstantialism of reality. .... S: !! That may take a few New Years for me to come to terms with, lol! I'll look forward to the Cliff's notes:-). ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Not yet in press, but I'm working on it! LOL! --------------------------------------------------------- Metta, Sarah ============================ With metta, Howard #80626 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 12:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Note on the Hindrances as Discussed in AN 5.51 upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 12/30/2007 6:25:02 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi Howard, --------- H: > But, of course, momentariness wasn't the point of my post. :-) As far as that is concerned, though, if you mean that the hindrances don't remain, I certainly agree. The Buddha taught that in the suttas, and if it weren't true, we'd "be in a pickle"! ;-) ---------- I did not mean "the hindrances don't remain" in the conventional sense of not remaining. In conventional reality hindrances remain for a period of time and then fade away. This is not what the Buddha taught. On the contrary, this is an atta-based kind of non-remaining. Therefore it is something that the Buddha specifically denied. ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: It happens, Ken, that mere non-remaining is exactly what he taught. The rest is just ideas you are enchanted by. -------------------------------------------------- ------------------ H: > If, on the other hand, you are referring to the theory of moments, that's commentarial, not suttic. (I don't know it to be false, though I disbelieve it.) ------------------- I don't know how you can say that. After all the explanations and all the sutta quotes you have been given during your years at DSG, I don't know how you can continue to insist the theory of moments is "commentarial, not suttic." -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: It's very easy, Ken. How about repeating some of those sutta quotes, Ken? ------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------- H: > > > We can make of this what we will. KH: > >Let's be careful we don't make something conventional out of it. :-) H: > What direct view you have that is not conventional? You speak as if from the mountaintop. ------------------------- I do not speak that way at all. I am simply telling you what I believe is in the texts. It has nothing to do with "me" or "my direct view." -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: It's interesting that this is what you believe is in "the texts". What examples do you have in mind to back up your belief? ------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------- H: > In any case, my point was that the hindrances are referred to in this sutta as obstacles to awareness and discernment, and concentration isn't discussed at all. ---------------------------------- I wouldn't even think of interpreting a sutta without expert help. ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, Ken, that immediately puts an end to the conversation. C'est la vie. =========================== The rest of your post follows without comment. With metta, Howard _____________________________________________________________________ But I know that the hindrances are akusala, and I have some idea of the dangers of akusala. I can see how they lead to more akusala and less kusala (including less sati and panna). So I wouldn't be surprised if that was what the sutta was saying. I would be very, very surprised if it was saying that satipatthana requires a special state-of-mind to be prepared for it in advance. --------------- KH: > > The Dhamma is not conventional, it is a description of ultimate reality. Howard: > That's great, Ken. ;-) But I have no clue why you raise that again in this regard. Do you just play that tune at any opportunity? ---------------- Yes and no. I do think it is a tune for all occasions, but it was especially relevant on this occasion. You were asserting a conventional side to the Dhamma. You were saying (in effect) that the conventionally known mind (one that persists for a period of time) can be calmed to a state where it is ready for insight. In ultimate reality the mind lasts for one moment only, and the necessary calming takes place in the same moment as the insight. --------------- H: > All that I will say with assurance is that on the basis of this, it is an error to see the hindrances solely as obstacles to concentration. ---------------- Yes, I have agreed with that in certain contexts. Kusala dhammas cannot arise in the same citta as akusala dhammas. ----------------------- <. . .> Howard: > The observing of hindrances is done early in meditation until they are weakened sufficiently to progress further. ------------------------ I must admit that is an interesting theory. Are you saying the hindrances can be known with a weak degree of panna, while only kusala dhammas can be known with high degrees of panna? ---------------------------------- H: > Meditation is a process, not an instantaneous phenomenon. In order for jhana to be realized, the hindrances do need to be suppressed/mollified, but they are still present at least in passive form. They have to be seen and known for what they are in order to reduce their impact, and this pertains not only to meditation but to all occasions. In this sutta, the Buddha said "Sensual desire is an obstacle, a hindrance that overwhelms awareness and weakens discernment. Ill will... Sloth & drowsiness... Restlessness & anxiety... Uncertainty is an obstacle, a hindrance that overwhelms awareness and weakens discernment. These are the five obstacles, hindrances that overwhelm awareness and weaken discernment. And when a monk has not abandoned these five obstacles, hindrances that overwhelm awareness and weaken discernment, when he is without strength and weak in discernment: for him to understand what is for his own benefit, to understand what is for the benefit of others, to understand what is for the benefit of both, to realize a superior human state, a truly noble distinction in knowledge & vision: that is impossible." ------------------------------------ Without the ancient commentaries (and someone to explain the ancient commentaries) I wouldn't attempt to interpret a sutta. I have been caught out too many times! ------------------ H: > Without the weakening of hindrances, awareness and discernment are *overwhelmed*, and mental cultivation is impossible. These hindrances have to be seen for what they are and weakened, suppressed, or put aside in order for there to be the arising of awareness and discernment strong enough to eventually uproot the hindrances along with all the defilements. Look at what the Buddha said, Ken, with regard to not getting the hindrances out of the way: If one has not done so, "for him to understand what is for his own benefit, to understand what is for the benefit of others, to understand what is for the benefit of both, to realize a superior human state, a truly noble distinction in knowledge & vision: that is impossible". As for Buddhist meditation, vipassana and samatha co-occur in what is typically Buddhist meditation, --------------------------- OK, that is your interpretation, but I don't think you will find it in the ancient commentaries. ------------------------- H: > and the jhanas involved are not trance states, but states of heightened calm and clarity and insight. ------------------------- I agree, genuine jhana is certainly not a trance. It is the concentrated arising of panna - the kind of panna that knows kusala from akusala. It is not, however, the arising of Buddhist panna - the kind of panna that knows nama from rupa (etc). ------------------- KH: > > That doesn't mean that the hindrance does not perform the functions described in the sutta, of course. It just means that, once it has arisen and performed its functions and fallen away it can, immediately after, be taken as an object of insight. Howard: > Once a hindrance "performs its function," a rote phrase you are in love with, it BLOCKS progress! That IS its function. That is why they are referred to as hindrances and obstacles. And it isn't that "damnable concentration" that is pointed to here as being blocked, but awareness and discernment, the sine qua non for awakening. --------------------- It momentarily blocks progress. Any belief in a persisting block is atta belief. --------------------------- <. . .> KH: > > I think you are talking about conventional reality again. Howard: > I'm talking about reality ... period. Trotting out the old dray horse of "conventional reality" doesn't do the job, Ken. --------------------------- Of course it does! Learning the difference between concepts and realities is the first step towards right understanding. It cannot be skipped. ---------------------- KH: > > We need to talk about one or the other: the two do not mix. Howard: > The only way to do that is to neither speak nor write nor think. ----------------------- I don't know why you would say that. Ken H /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream/ (From the Diamond Sutra) #80627 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 7:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Brief Observation & Suggestion nilovg Dear Ann (and Howard), thank you for your question. Op 29-dec-2007, om 21:22 heeft glenjohnann het volgende geschreven: N: It is also beneficial to know that walking, extending the hand is > done mostly with lobha, clinging. > Nina, can you elaborate further on this: > "Unless Kusala is involved: daana, siila or bhaavanaa." > > Are you saying that unless one or more of these arises, then the > moment is akusala? What about moments of metta (or is that > considered part of daana?) I am interested in hearing you talk more > about this. ---------- N: Howard is right that there are also inoperative cittas, kiriyacittas, he calls neutral cittas. I would say, an example is the mind-door adverting-consciousness arising just before the javanacittas which are either kusala or akusala. It is only one very brief moment and it is difficult to know all cittas from moment to moment. When we stretch out our hand to get appetizing food for ourselves this is motivated by lobha. When we stretch out our hand to help someone else, this is kusala citta, and helping is a form of siila. But still, in beteen the kusala cittas there are bound to be akusala cittas. We may cling to our kusala or have conceit: look here, I am helping. It is the same with walking, moving around. The objective may be pure enjoyment, like walking in nature, but it can also be mettaa or helping others, or going to a temple to present daana, but in between there are bound to be akusala cittas. That is why the Buddha exhorted us to be mindful and to develop right understanding of naama and ruupa, no matter what we are doing. Nina. #80628 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 7:08 am Subject: Preserving the Buddha's Teachings, Ch 8, no 5. nilovg Dear friends, (continuation of the dialogue between Supee and Nina) Nina: I understand more that there is clinging to a self so often. Supee: There can gradually be more understanding about the clinging to a self, paññå can realize all such moments. When paññå is keener it knows that it is a kind of nåma that clings to the idea of self. Paññå can understand the more subtle lobha and the other defilements. If there is no awareness and understanding of all realities, there is lobha that selects to go to a particular place in order to hear Dhamma discussions. One may want to avoid doing complicated work. There may be paññå that sees the value of Dhamma discussions or there may be lobha that selects such a situation. The moments of clinging and of real understanding are very close. Nina: The moments of lobha and of paññå arise alternately. There may be wrong practice but we may not notice this. Even when there is an idea of self who guides just a little it prevents us from knowing the present moment. We may unknowingly separate satipaììhåna from daily life. Wrong practice does not lead out of the cycle of birth and death whereas right practice does. We still cling to rebirth and we may not see the disadvantage and danger of rebirth. However, we may come to see the ugliness of defilements and the benefit of having less defilements. When all defilements have been eradicated by paññå, it means that there will be no more rebirth. We read in the "Kindred Sayings" (II, Nidåna-vagga, Kindred Sayings on Cause, Ch I, § 3, The Way) that the Buddha, while dwelling near Såvatthí, said to the monks: Which, monks, is the wrong way? "Conditioned by ignorance activities come to pass; conditioned by activities consciousness"... even (the way of) the uprising of this entire mass of dukkha. This is called the wrong way. And which is the right way? "But from the utter fading away and ceasing of ignorance (comes) the ceasing of activities; from the ceasing of activities (comes) ceasing of consciousness"... even (the way of) the ceasing of this entire mass of dukkha. This is called the right way. Ignorance is the factor that is mentioned first in the teaching of the conditions for the cycle of birth and death, the "Dependent Origination", Paticcasamuppåda. Ignorance conditions the "activities", or "kamma-formations" (abhisankhåra), which are: akusala kamma or "demeritorious kamma formations" (apu~n~nåbhisankhåra [1]), kusala kamma of the sense- sphere and rúpa-jhåna (fine material jhåna) or "meritorious kamma- formations" (pu~n~n'åbhisankhåra), and kusala kamma of the degree of arúpa-jhåna (immaterial jhåna) or "imperturbable kamma- formations" (åne~nåbhisankhåra). Kusala kamma of the degree of arúpa- jhåna is more subtle and more refined. These three kinds of kamma- formations are links in the Dependent Origination, they condition consciousness that is vipåka in the form of rebirth and in the form of vipåka arising in the course of life. So long as ignorance of realities has not been eradicated, there are kamma-formations that condition vipåka and thus, the cycle of birth and death continues, there is no end to dukkha. When ignorance and the other defilements have been eradicated, the cycle comes to an end. --------- 1. Puñña means merit or kusala, and apuñña means akusala. In the teaching of the Dependent Origination kamma is called: abhisaòkhåra, that which arranges, forms or conditions. ******* Nina. #80629 From: "Larry" Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 9:05 am Subject: Re: Real Dhamma (from Htoo) lbidd2 Hi Sarah, Sarah: "Maybe we could start an 'in-depth discussion' of the points together?" Larry: That would be great. I'll follow your lead. I think Nina may have touched on these but I don't remember the name of the thread. Generally speaking, what Htoo is talking about is Purification by Knowledge and Vision of the Way. He touches on Purification of View and Purification by Overcoming Doubt, but skips over Purification by Knowledge and Vision of What is Path and Not-Path. Any way you want to jump into this is fine with me. Larry ps: I'm using Ven. ~Nanarama's "The Seven Stages of Purification and The Insight Knowledges" as a source, just to include the meditators;-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Friends, > > I just received a brief note from our dear friend Htoo. He asked me to f/w > the following from his 'Htoo' account, but it's easier to just send it > from my address. I'm sure he'll be glad to see any replies. S. > ********************* > From Htoo > > Heading : Real Dhamma > > Things : Six senses are sensed by sense-bases. When senses are > sensed there arise sense-consciousness. Here senses are meant for > \'sight, sound, smell, taste, touch, thought\'. Sight is sensed > through the sense-base of eye-sense-base and there arises > eye-consciousness (cakkhu-vi~n~naa.na). When contemplate on these > things (bhaavanaa on aayatana) there may arise three steps of > knowledge. > > 1) knowledge of sabhaava-lakkha.na (knowledge of original marker of > Dhamma) > > 2) knowledge of sa`nkhata-lakkha.na (knowledge of preparation on Dhamma) > > 3) knowledge of saama`na-lakkha.na (knowledge of general signs of Dhamma > > The first step is \'for the power of discriminating on naama and > ruupa. The second step if \'for the power of penetrating cause and > effect (pa.ticca-samuppaada). And the third step is the entry point to > the path of NEP. Third step is the 1st ~naana of 10 vipassanaa. There > are 10 vipassanaa ~naana. > > 1. nirodha-samaapatti > 2. phala-samaapatti > 3. paccavekkha.naa > 4. phala > 5. magga > 6. gotrabhu > > are not vipassanaa ~naana. And naama-ruupa-pariccheda & > paccayapariggaha are also not vipassanaa ~naana. > > With Unlimited Metta, > > Htoo Naing > > For Sarah ( you can put English translation after Paa.li such as > fruition-consciousness for phala-citta). > #80630 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 10:16 am Subject: Re: Anatta as a strategy scottduncan2 Dear James, Thanks for the reply: A: "This is a good start. Does it say anywhere that this 'wrong concentration' is forced or directed concentration toward a specific object? In other words, does it define wrong concentration anywhere?" Scott: Wrong concentration would be concentration that arises with akusala citta. I'm sure it is a rather basic definition. Wouldn't it depend on what mental factors go along with 'forced' and 'directed'? Remember Buddhagosa does not shy away from considering that dhammas are momentary and arise according to conditions. So, for me, I would need to know what it is that would be conditioning a desire to try to force or direct concentration toward a specific object. Visuddhimagga I 52, regarding 'seeing fear in the slightest fault': "...But all that beginning with the words 'possessed of (proper) conduct and resort' should be understood as said in order to show the way of practise that perfects the virtue in him who so practises it." Scott: Therefore,if the possibility exists that my desire to 'force or direct concentration' to 'meditate' is rooted in unwholesome consciousness, which certainly exists, then any concentration which would naturally arise would only perfect the unwholesomeness from which it arises. Buddhagosa - the same who wrote Visuddhimagga and hence I think an acceptable source to answer your question - writes in Atthasaalinii (p.331): "...Thus their being immoral is what alone distinguishes them from the former states. The 'one-pointedness of mind' is the steadiness of mind free from distraction when taking life, etc. Indeed, men concentrating the mind are not distracted and let fall unerring weapons on the bodies of creatures. Being well-concentrated they steal others property. With mind [governed by] a single function they fall into wrong behaviour. So there is one-pointedness of mind in the occurrence of immorality." Scott: In Visuddhimagga XIV 159,163:,'as regards the unprofitable...': "Herein, the thirteen given as such are these: contact(i), volition (ii), applied thought (iii), sustained thought (iv), happiness (v), energy (vi), life (vii), concentration (viii), (xxxviii) consciencelessness, (xxxviii) shamelessness, (xxxix) greed, (xi) delusion, (xli) wrong view. The four or-whatever states are these: zeal (xxviii), resolution (xxix), (xlii) agitation, attention (xxx). "Delusion has the characteristic of blindness, or it has the characteristic of unknowing. Its function is non-penetration, or its function is to conceal the individual essence of an object. It is manifested as absence of right theory..., or it is manifested as darkness. Its proximate cause is unwise (unjustified) attention. It should be regarded as the root of all that is unprofitable." Sincerely, Scott. #80631 From: "Larry" Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 10:51 am Subject: thoughts on practice lbidd2 Hi all, I couldn't find the appropriate threads to insert these comments, so I'm gathering them into one place. But anyone with a contrary idea, please respond. First, on concentration, there are three levels of heightened concentration: momentary concentration, access concentration, and absorption concentration. The characteristic of heightened concentration is that it is the clear experience of a specific object. Ordinarily we kind of 'go with the flow' and don't engage an object as it is. "Heightened concentration" is what we mean by "mindfulness". Access concentration and absorption concentration necessarily have a concept as object. Here the idea is to experience the same thing over and over to minimize change and discord. In access concentration a concept or mental image is repeated again and again. In absorption concentration the concept or mental image seems to persist on its own. "Momentary concentration" can have a reality as object, but often a series of objects are of the same kind, for example, breathing sensations. Mindfulness of breathing can shift from momentary concentration to access concentration by tranquilizing the breathing sensations until they are very subtle and ultimately indistinguishable. Sometimes a concept or mental image will then arise as object and access concentration is then entered. Momentary concentration does not need to experience the same kind of object again and again. It can just be an openness to whatever arises. Here a "distraction" is a matter of loosing heightened concentration, not clearly experiencing a specific object, just skimming over the surface of events and going with the flow of discursive thoughts and emotions. Second, the argument against practice is that it is an attempt to control experience. The key word that comes up in this argument is "intention". "Intention" (chandha) is sometimes confused with volition (cetana). Intention is a wish-to-do, while volition is a doing. However, to my mind intention is not the main element of "trying to control". I think trying to control is primarily desire. When I practice mindfulness of breathing sensations there is no desire to practice that mindfulness at all. But there is often desire for a more profound experience. Desire is always desire for a state other than the one that has arisen. This is how the Buddha describes control. "Let my form be thus. Let my form not be thus." (SN22.59) Recognizing that desire as desire is a key part of the practice. It is essentially an early level of insight. Another argument against practice is that we cling to it as me and mine, thinking "I am being mindful" (or more often, "I am not being mindful"). I'm not sure if this is self view or conceit. Is "I am" always conceit, Nina? In either case this is definitely a case of wrong mindfulness and a good reason to keep an eye out for 'feelings' of I or my. But I don't think it is a good reason to not practice or to avoid mindfulness (heightened concentration). "I am" is everywhere. We can't avoid it or try to not experience it. It is too easy to think "I am a good boy because I'm not aware of anything." And the Buddha certainly didn't recommend unconscious passivity. "I am" is an affliction and the Buddha encouraged us to meet that affliction and see it for what it is. The only way that can happen is with heightened concentration. Any comments? Larry #80632 From: "Robert" Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 11:20 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy avalo1968 Hello Jon, So we are at the same impasse and that is where we will have to leave it. Have a Happy New Year. Robert A. #80633 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 11:40 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy/ Happy New Year to all of us ! buddhistmedi... Hi all, - I'd like to join Robert to wish Jon, Sarah, Nina and other DSG members a very happy and peaceful New Year! Thank you for the lively and beneficial dhamma discussions you made in 2007. Looking ahead, may 2008 also be a good year. Best wishes, Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert" wrote: > > Hello Jon, > > So we are at the same impasse and that is where we will have to leave it. > > Have a Happy New Year. > > Robert A. > #80634 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 11:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga, was Anatta as a strategy nilovg Hi James, you have many points here and I really appreciate your interest in the Visuddhimagga. Only: we have to be so careful not to oversimplify what we read, as I said. The texts are subtle and there is much more to it than you think at first sight. We have to study carefully what kinds of siila, samaadhi and pa~n~naa are meant here. Op 30-dec-2007, om 13:56 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > James: I can see that you are trying to make an effort to explain > yourself, and I appreciate that, but you aren't being specific. There > are two types of right view: mundane right view and supramundane right > view. You appear to be saying that supramundane right view must be > present at all stages of the path- and that isn't true. ------ N: Misunderstanding. I do not think of supramundane right view, that accompanies lokuttara citta. I think of the meaning of purity, visuddhi, and of higher siila, adhisiila, higher samaadhi, adhicitta, and higher pa~n~naa, adhipa~n~naa. Without sati and pa~n~naa of the level of satipatthaana, thus of vipassanaa, there is no question of any purity, and no question of 'higher', adhi. ------- > > > The Vis: > > > > 14. Likewise the reason for the states of Stream-entry and Once- > > return is shown by Virtue; that for the state of Non-return, by > > Concentration; that for Arahantship, by Understanding. For the > > Stream-enterer is called `Perfected in the `kinds of virtue'; and > > likewise the Once-returner. But the Non-returner is called > `Perfected > > in concentration'. And the Arahant is called `Perfected in > > understanding' (See A.i, 233). > > This to show that it is an oversimplification to think of three > > steps. > > James: It doesn't show any such thing. Actually, this quote supports > what I have said: that sila, samadhi, and understanding come in steps. > Does arahant come before sotapanna? ------ N: The streamenterer is perfect in virtue, does not transgress the precepts. The anaagamii has no more longing for sense pleasures, is perfected in calm. The arahat has perfect understanding. Yes, there is an order of practice, but in the purifications, in higher states. I show now a text from the Vis: Text Vis Ch XIV, 211.: 1. Herein, 'as to order': order is of several kinds, namely order of arising, order of abandoning, order of practice, order of plane,order of teaching. Herein, 'First there comes to be the fetus in the first stage, then there comes to be the fetus in the second stage' (S.I,206), etc., is 'order of arising'. 'Things to be abandoned by seeing, things to be abandoned by development' (Dhs., p.1), etc., is 'order of abandoning'. ------ N:The defilements that are abandoned by seeing or insight (dassana) are those eradicated by the streamwinner. His path-consciousness is called seeing, since there is the seeing of nibbana for the first time. The defilements abandoned by cultivation (bhaavanaa) are those abandoned by arahatship. The Tiika explains that there is an order of abandoning: what has to be abandoned first, is first mentioned, what has to be abandoned secondly, is mentioned as second. -------- Text Vis.: 'Purification of virtue ... purification of consciousness' (M.I,148), etc., is 'order of practice'. ------- N: Here the reference is to: siilavisuddhi, citta visuddhi, paññaa visuddhi. We have to note the word: purity, visuddhi. There is no purity without paññaa of the level of vipassanaa. Thus there is reference here to the order of higher levels of vipassanaa. ------- So this is the meaning of the order of siila, samaadhi and pa~n~naa. These are siila, samaadhi and pa~n~naa which are very specific. As I said before, in the Ch on siila, at the end he deals with higher and higher siilas: (I, 140) abandoning is virtue, siila: through knowledge...ignorance,through the contemplation of impermanence in the case of the perception of permanence...up to arahatship. And all of this is classified as siila. A text on higher siila etc: -- Nyanatiloka dict. under training, sikkha: sikkhÄ?: the 'training', which the Buddha's disciple has to undergo, is 3-fold: training in higher morality (adhisÄ«la-sikkhÄ?), in higher mentality (adhicitta-sikkhÄ?), and in higher wisdom (adhipaññÄ?- sikkhÄ?). This 3-fold training refers to the 3-fold division of the the 8-fold Path (magga, q.v.) in morality, concentration and wisdom (sÄ«la, samÄ?dhi, paññÄ?). In D. 16 and A.IV,1 it is said: "It is through not understanding, not penetrating noble morality ... noble concentration ... noble wisdom ... noble deliverance that I, as well as you, have had for such a long time to pass through this round of rebirths.'' "This then is morality, this concentration, this wisdom, this deliverance. Being endowed with morality, concentration brings high fruit and blessing. Being endowed with concentration, wisdom hrings high fruit and blessing. Being endowed with wisdom, the mind becomes freed from all cankers (Ä?sava q.v.) namely, from the sensuous canker (kÄ?mÄ?sava), from the canker of existence (bhavÄ?sava) from the canker of opinions (diá¹¹) from the canker of ignorance (avijjÄ?sava). -------- N: Thus, right from the beginning we have to consider the threefold division in the Visuddhimagga as parts of the eightfold Path and this means: they have to be accompanied by right understanding of the eightfold Path. When at the beginning of the book siila is explained, all levels of siila are dealt with, even up to the highest. This is very meaningful. If I had more time I would discuss more, James. But I have to round off this thread and maybe others can continue. You have a good dialogue with Scott. Nina. #80635 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 11:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy/ Happy New Year to all of us ! nilovg Hi Tep, I was thinking of you. It is kind of you to write and I also wish to you a peaceful New Year. Nina. Op 30-dec-2007, om 20:40 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > I'd like to join Robert to wish Jon, Sarah, Nina and other DSG members > a very happy and peaceful New Year! > > Thank you for the lively and beneficial dhamma discussions you made in > 2007. #80636 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 12:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] thoughts on practice nilovg Hi Larry, Op 30-dec-2007, om 19:51 heeft Larry het volgende geschreven: > Another argument against practice is that we cling to it as me and > mine, thinking "I am > being mindful" (or more often, "I am not being mindful"). I'm not > sure if this is self view or > conceit. Is "I am" always conceit, Nina? In either case this is > definitely a case of wrong > mindfulness and a good reason to keep an eye out for 'feelings' of > I or my. ------- N: it depends on the citta at that moment. One may cling to the importance of self and then there is conceit. Or there may be just lobha, without wrong view, or with wrong view. Only the person in question can know. I miss in your post words on understanding, pa~n~naa. I appreciate it so much that Kh Sujin always emphasizes understanding and detachment. The other day I read James' post on concentration and I remember that some people think that concentration in samatha is not the same cetasika as that which arises with each citta. It is the same ekaggataa cetasika but it is so amazing that it is different as it accompanies different cittas and cetasikas. The sobhana cetasikas condition it to be quite different from akusala samaadhi. Confidence, saddhaa, rectitute, calm, passaddhi, sati, lightness, they all perform their functions and cause samaadhi to be right, to be kusala. Nina. #80637 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 12:12 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Real Dhamma (from Htoo) nilovg Dear Htoo, Op 30-dec-2007, om 18:05 heeft Larry het volgende geschreven: > And naama-ruupa-pariccheda & > > paccayapariggaha are also not vipassanaa ~naana. ------ N: Sometimes vipassana ~naanas are counted differently, but these are the first and second of tender insight, taru.na vipassanaa. Nina. #80638 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 5:56 am Subject: What is the Cause of Ignorance? bhikkhu0 Friends: These 5 Mental Hindrances Causes Ignorance! On the vulture’s peak hill, prince Abhaya asked the Blessed Buddha: Sir, what is the Causes of not seeing, of not knowing, & of not understanding?? The All-Seeing Blessed One responded: At such time, prince, when one remain with a mind possessed and overwhelmed by sensual desire, and do not know, do not see any refuge, any protection, any shelter, nor any ways to escape such sensual lust, that has arisen - this exact condition itself, prince, is the Cause of Not Seeing, is the Cause of Not Knowing. Therefore, not seeing, not knowing have indeed a cause, and is conditioned by an essential requirement. [such as desire for sensing] Then again, prince, when one remain with a mind possessed and overwhelmed by ill will, and do not know, do not see any refuge, any protection, any shelter, nor any ways to escape & still such anger, that has arisen – then this exact condition itself, prince, is the Cause of Not Seeing, is the Cause of Not Knowing. Therefore, not seeing, not knowing have indeed a cause, and is conditioned by an necessary requirement. [such as hate, ill will, anger, irritation & opposition] Then again, prince, when one remain with a mind possessed and overwhelmed by Lethargy and Laziness, and do not know, do not see any refuge, any protection, any shelter, nor any ways to escape such apathy and drugged dullness, that has emerged – then this exact condition itself , prince, is the Cause of Not Seeing, is the Cause of Not Knowing and thus becomes the cause of not understanding. Therefore, not seeing, not knowing have indeed a specific cause, and is conditioned by an indispensable requirement. [as apathy, dullness, sloth, torpor & laziness] Then again, prince, when one remain with a mind possessed and overwhelmed by restlessness, anxiety, regrets & remorse, and do not know, do not see any refuge, any protection, any shelter, nor any ways to escape such restlessness and anxiety, that has developed – then this exact condition itself, prince, is the very sole Cause of Not Seeing, is the Cause of Not Knowing, is the Cause of Not Understanding. Therefore, not seeing, not knowing have indeed a cause, & is indeed conditioned by a specific crucial requirement. [eg. restlessness & anxiety, regrets & remorse] Then again, prince, when one remain with a mind possessed and overwhelmed by uncertainty, doubt and confusion and do not know, do not see any refuge, any protection, any shelter, nor any ways to escape such uncertainty, doubt and confusion, that has arisen, then this exact condition, prince, is the Cause of Not Seeing, is the Cause of Not Knowing, is the Cause of Not Understanding. Therefore, not seeing, not knowing have indeed a cause, & is indeed created by a causal requirement... [such as uncertainty, doubt, and confusion] What, Sir, is this method of teaching called? These, prince, are called: The Hindrances...! Source: Samyutta Nikaya – The Grouped Sayings V, Mahavagga. <...> Friendship is the Greatest * Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka :-) .... #80639 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 1:32 pm Subject: Re: Do "Dhammas" exist? Yes/No ? kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > > Hi All, > > I just received an off-line reply to this message which reads, "Well > then, if dhammas are beyond existence and non-existence, how can > they be real or unreal?" > > My point is that, in my opinion, the issue of real / unreal or > existence / non-existence is outside of the Buddha's teaching. > Hi Rob M, I also was tempted to write a reply to your message, but I didn't want to get too personal. You know me, tactful to a fault. :- ) Maybe now is as good a time as any to ask a couple of awkward questions. Firstly, do you agree that the Abhidhamma teaches absolute reality as opposed to illusory reality? Secondly, if you don't believe the Abhidhamma is the Buddha's teaching, why have you accepted the position of Abhidhamma teacher at your local temple? Were you engaged to do a hatchet job on the Abhidhamma? Sorry if that sounds rude, but I have always wondered. Ken H #80640 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 2:17 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy jonoabb Hi Robert A Robert wrote: > Hello Jon, > > So we are at the same impasse and that is where we will have to leave it. > > Have a Happy New Year. > And a Happy New Year to you. Looking forward to continuing our dialogue in the new year. If 2007 was the year of the impasse, may 2008 be the year of the breakthrough! Jon #80641 From: "glenjohnann" Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 2:20 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy glenjohnann --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: Thank you for all of that (below), Jonothan. Very useful. Ann > There are many conditions mentioned in the suttas and other texts. > Perhaps the one most often mentioned, in one form or another, is > hearing/listening to the dhamma, which I take to mean having the > opportunity to hear the teachings explained in a manner that is > appropriate to our particular level of understanding and/or particular > wrong view. Now this could be in listening to a talk given by someone > whose understanding is much better than one's own (a "teacher"), or in > discussion with one's dhamma peers, or when reading a book, or in any > other way. However, I do not see it as meaning (the conventionally > understood idea of) deliberately listening or reading, etc, -- it refers > to an opportune occasion rather than a specific activity. > > This of course presupposes an interest in the teachings in the first > place, and not only that but one that is based on a correct > understanding of the teachings. > > Another often-mentioned condition is that what has been heard should be > reflected on. This I take to refer to the kind of reflexive (no pun > intended!) thinking that is driven by a deeply held interest in the > subject matter, rather than by a deliberate pondering undertaken with > the idea of creating conditions or as part of a "practice". One example > might be the kind of thinking about an ongoing dhamma discussion that > one catches oneself doing from time to time during the day. > > Another factor/condition mentioned in the texts is "meritorious deeds > done in the past". This I take to refer particularly to one's > understanding of the teachings on insight as developed in previous > lives. Without a certain level of accumulated understanding, there > would be no interest of the necessary kind in the first place. But > given that there must have been a degree of such understanding developed > in the past, it is a matter of its being prompted to arise by > appropriate conditions. > > Dhammas are arising now, but are not seen as they truly are. It is the > dhammas that are arising right now that are begin spoken of in the > suttas, not those that may occur at some later time. With the right > conditions, there can be the beginning of awareness of a presently > arising dhamma. To my understanding, this awareness will occur at a > time, and with an object, not of our own choosing. > > Jon > #80642 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 3:21 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy/ Happy New Year to all of us ! buddhistmedi... Hi Nina, - You wrote : > Hi Tep, > I was thinking of you. It is kind of you to write and I also wish to you a peaceful New Year. > Nina. I was also thinking of you and about the other conversation you had with James. Thank you very much for making it clear how siila progresses from purity to the adhisiila, and also how pa~n~naa is related to vipassanaa. >Nina: Without sati and pa~n~naa of the level of satipatthaana, thus of vipassanaa, there is no question of any purity, and no question of 'higher', adhi. Tep: I also appreciate your explanation about "an order of practice" in Buddhism. >Nina: Yes, there is an order of practice, but in the purifications, in higher states. ... The defilements that are abandoned by seeing or insight (dassana) are those eradicated by the streamwinner. His path- consciousness is called seeing, since there is the seeing of nibbana for the first time. The defilements abandoned by cultivation (bhaavanaa) are those abandoned by arahatship. >Nina: We have to note the word: purity, visuddhi. There is no purity without pa~n~naa of the level of vipassanaa. Thus there is reference here to the order of higher levels of vipassanaa. That is a very good conclusion in which you skillfully connect visuddhi to pa~n~naa and vipassanaa. That is like a "New Year gift" to me, Nina. Tep === #80643 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 4:25 pm Subject: Re: Anatta as a strategy buddhatrue Hi Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Dear James, > > Thanks for the reply: > > A: "This is a good start. Does it say anywhere that this 'wrong > concentration' is forced or directed concentration toward a specific > object? In other words, does it define wrong concentration anywhere?" > > Scott: Wrong concentration would be concentration that arises with > akusala citta. I'm sure it is a rather basic definition. Wouldn't it > depend on what mental factors go along with 'forced' and 'directed'? > Remember Buddhagosa does not shy away from considering that dhammas > are momentary and arise according to conditions. > > So, for me, I would need to know what it is that would be conditioning > a desire to try to force or direct concentration toward a specific > object. Visuddhimagga I 52, regarding 'seeing fear in the slightest > fault': James: Okay, but Sarah wrote that any type of concentration toward a specific object is wrong concentration, automatically. In other words, it doesn't matter if the intent is wholesome, if there is directed concentration toward an object it is wrong concentration. Are you now telling me that that isn't the case? That the intent is important to consider when determining wrong concentration? Remember, we are talking about meditation here. Focusing on the breath, a color, an element, death, the Triple Gem, etc., we are not talking about focusing on killing someone or stealing something. Sarah is basically saying that if I sit down cross legged, with my spine erect, and establish mindfulness on a chose object: breath, color, death, etc., then that is automatically wrong concentration. From your research of the Vism. do you agree or disagree with this? And, please, don't eel wriggle- be specific. Metta, James #80644 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 5:36 pm Subject: Re: Anatta as a strategy scottduncan2 Dear James, Thanks for the reply: James: "Okay, but Sarah wrote that any type of concentration toward a specific object is wrong concentration, automatically. In other words, it doesn't matter if the intent is wholesome, if there is directed concentration toward an object it is wrong concentration. Are you now telling me that that isn't the case? That the intent is important to consider when determining wrong concentration?" Scott: I'll let Sarah field questions related to her comments since I didn't make them. So far I'm noting that there does appear to be something called Wrong Concentration and that this seems to be so according to its arising in combination with akusala citta. This being the case, how can one be sure that it is Right Concentration? Again, I'm not in anyway way saying that Jhaana is not a natural consequence of a repeated series of moments of consciousness focused on a concept. I am saying that I doubt that what one might think is Right Concentration is actually Right Concentration. What would you consider wrong concentration to be,? How does one know that the 'intent is wholesome'? Simply because one wishes it were so? J: "Remember, we are talking about meditation here. Focusing on the breath, a color, an element, death, the Triple Gem, etc., we are not talking about focusing on killing someone or stealing something. Sarah is basically saying that if I sit down cross legged, with my spine erect, and establish mindfulness on a chose object: breath, color, death, etc., then that is automatically wrong concentration. From your research of the Vism. do you agree or disagree with this? and, please, don't eel wriggle- be specific." Scott: 'Eel-wriggle'???! Again, you can discuss what Sarah is saying with Sarah. I'm assuming we are discussing Concentration. Is this what you mean by 'meditation'? I did read an interesting opinion on this by Mrs. Rhys-Davids regarding wrong concentration (Dhammasa"nga.ni p. 91): "Concentration of mind is essential to the higher life of Buddhism; nevertheless, so far is it from constituting excellence, that it is also an essential to effective evil doing. If the mind be undistracted, says Buddhagosa, the murderer's knife does not miss, the theft does not miscarry, and by a mind of single intent (lit. one taste) evil conduct is carried out..." Scott: If, by meditation, you mean bhaavanaa, one might very well be developing wrong concentration by sitting in the described posture and imagining that one has 'established mindfulness on a chosen object'. One can, due to Wrong Concentration, sit and focus on what ever for a long time. Is it kusala? Is it Jhaana? I believe you have already noted that your aim in 'meditating' is not jhaana but relaxation, which by my way of seeing it, is akusala and therefore Wrong Concentration. There is no profitable reason, from a Dhamma perspective, for learning to relax by focusing on the breath and sitting in a given posture. I develop Wrong Concentration when I repeat scales on the guitar, focusing to improve my playing. It is still concentration. I'm saying that it seems quite difficult to know when it is Right Concentration that is being developed. I'm saying that it is not automatically Right Concentration, that it is difficult to tell the difference between right and wrong concentration without the requisite level of pan~n~naa. Sincerely, Scott. #80645 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 5:58 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] thoughts on practice lbidd2 Hi Nina, Nina: "I miss in your post words on understanding, pa~n~naa." Larry: You are right. I didn't say anything about understanding because it didn't seem controversial. I was mostly interested in the threads that were discussing samadhi and intention. Along those lines one might say that self view regarding understanding, thinking "I understand" or "you don't understand", is wrong understanding. I am also interested in the difference between self view and conceit, particularly the conceit "I am" (asmi maana). I would describe conceit as pride or self contempt, but I'm not sure what "I am" means. I can sense pride in the mere idea of "I." Is that it? Is humbleness the opposite of conceit? I was looking at some Japanese wood block prints today and a common theme was tiny figures in a very large landscape. Is that pointing at humbleness? Looking at the definition of self view I see where I made the mistake of confusing the belief to be identical, which is a self view, with the feeling of pride in "I am", which is conceit. Here "I am hungry" is self view because there is identity with hunger rather than pride in mere being. But I don't understand why pride and identity don't go together. Might not someone who is suffering from anorexia at some point in her treatment be proud that she is hungry? Larry #80646 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 6:26 pm Subject: Re: A Note on the Hindrances as Discussed in AN 5.51 kenhowardau Hi Howard, ----------- KH: > > In conventional reality hindrances remain for a period of time and then fade away. This is not what the Buddha taught. On the contrary, this is an atta-based kind of non-remaining. Therefore it is something that the Buddha specifically denied. Howard: > It happens, Ken, that mere non-remaining is exactly what he taught. The rest is just ideas you are enchanted by. ----------- Please think again. Why, in The Supreme Net of Views did the Buddha include "The self does not exist" and "I will not be reborn" in the list of wrong views? Wasn't it because, in each of those views, anatta was being applied to a concept? The same would apply to anicca. We don't say our selves or mountains (etc) bear the anicca characteristic. Ultimately there are no selves and no mountains, there are only dhammas. And it is with this understanding that we can start talking about the kind of impermanence and non-existence taught by the Buddha. ------------ KH: > > After all the explanations and all the sutta quotes you have been given during your years at DSG, I don't know how you can continue to insist the theory of moments is "commentarial, not suttic." Howard: > It's very easy, Ken. How about repeating some of those sutta quotes, Ken? -------------- I would have to do that in two ways. Firstly, for me (to my way of understanding) every sutta quote is about fleeting, momentary, paramattha dhammas. That is because I understand every part of the Dhamma in the light of the Dhamma as a whole. Secondly, there are always occasions when DSG members are asking for specific quotes. Sometimes they want one that says the Buddha taught something 'different and difficult to see' - not mere conventional wisdom. Sometimes they want one that says the Buddha believed in the absolute existence of dhammas. Sometimes they want one that says citta is extremely short lasting (so short lasting that it is hard to find a simile). Or they want a quote to the effect that the Buddha's conventional language was employed purely for the purposes of teaching, and was not meant to suggest that conventional realities really existed. And, of course, there are the ones about the loka (the 'world' in Buddhist parlance) being only a few dhammas at one of the six doorways. The list really does "go on." You know these quotes as well as I do - better, probably - so I won't bother trying to find them. ------------ <. . .> KH> > I wouldn't even think of interpreting a sutta without expert help. Howard: > Well, Ken, that immediately puts an end to the conversation. C'est la vie. -------------- Oh well, at least I'm getting the last word. :-) Ken H #80647 From: "R. K. Wijayaratne" Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 2:36 pm Subject: Putrid * rwijayaratne Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammâ Sambuddhassa! <...> Taken from AccessToInsight.org1 Translated from Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu PUTRID Anguttara Nikâya 3.126 - Katuviya Sutta2 I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying at Varanasi in the Game Refuge at Isipatana. Then early in the morning the Blessed One, having put on his robes and carrying his bowl & outer robe, went into Varanasi for alms. As he was walking for alms near the fig-tree at the cattle yoke, he saw a certain monk whose delight was in what is empty, whose delight was in exterior things, his mindfulness muddled, his alertness lacking, his concentration lacking, his mind gone astray, his faculties (eye, ear, nose, tongue, body and mind) uncontrolled. On seeing him, the Blessed One said to him: "Monk, monk, don't let yourself putrefy! On one who lets himself putrefy & stink with the stench of carrion, there's no way that flies won't swarm & attack!" Then the monk — admonished with this, the Blessed One's admonishment — came to his senses. So the Blessed One, having gone for alms in Varanasi, after the meal, returning from his alms round, addressed the monks [and told them what had happened]. When this was said, a certain monk said to the Blessed One, "What, lord, is putrefaction? What is the stench of carrion? What are flies?" "Greed, monk, is putrefaction. Ill will is the stench of carrion. Evil, unskillful thoughts are flies. On one who lets himself putrefy & stink with the stench of carrion, there's no way that flies won't swarm & attack. "On one whose eyes & ears are unguarded, whose senses are unrestrained, flies swarm: resolves dependent on passion. The monk who is putrid, who stinks of the stench of carrion, is far from Unbinding. His share is vexation. Whether he stays in village or wilderness, having gained for himself no tranquillity, he's surrounded by flies. But those who are consummate in virtue, who delight in discernment & calm, pacified, they sleep in ease. No flies settle on them." Notes 1. More suttas from AcessToInsight.org can be found here http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sutta.html 2. This sutta can be found in full here http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.126.than.html <...> #80648 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 3:10 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Note on the Hindrances as Discussed in AN 5.51 upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 12/30/2007 9:26:19 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi Howard, ----------- KH: > > In conventional reality hindrances remain for a period of time and then fade away. This is not what the Buddha taught. On the contrary, this is an atta-based kind of non-remaining. Therefore it is something that the Buddha specifically denied. Howard: > It happens, Ken, that mere non-remaining is exactly what he taught. The rest is just ideas you are enchanted by. ----------- Please think again. Why, in The Supreme Net of Views did the Buddha include "The self does not exist" and "I will not be reborn" in the list of wrong views? Wasn't it because, in each of those views, anatta was being applied to a concept? The same would apply to anicca. We don't say our selves or mountains (etc) bear the anicca characteristic. Ultimately there are no selves and no mountains, there are only dhammas. And it is with this understanding that we can start talking about the kind of impermanence and non-existence taught by the Buddha. ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Aggregations change, because their components cease and new components arise. Impermanence directly applies only to paramattha dhammas. So? What it means for a dhamma to be anicca is that it does not last; it is im-permanent, non-lasting. That is the point. Anything else here is beside the point. ------------------------------------------------------ ------------ KH: > > After all the explanations and all the sutta quotes you have been given during your years at DSG, I don't know how you can continue to insist the theory of moments is "commentarial, not suttic." Howard: > It's very easy, Ken. How about repeating some of those sutta quotes, Ken? -------------- I would have to do that in two ways. Firstly, for me (to my way of understanding) every sutta quote is about fleeting, momentary, paramattha dhammas. That is because I understand every part of the Dhamma in the light of the Dhamma as a whole. --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I didn't ask what things are for you. I asked for quotes to back up the khanavada view. -------------------------------------------------------- Secondly, there are always occasions when DSG members are asking for specific quotes. Sometimes they want one that says the Buddha taught something 'different and difficult to see' - not mere conventional wisdom. Sometimes they want one that says the Buddha believed in the absolute existence of dhammas. Sometimes they want one that says citta is extremely short lasting (so short lasting that it is hard to find a simile). Or they want a quote to the effect that the Buddha's conventional language was employed purely for the purposes of teaching, and was not meant to suggest that conventional realities really existed. And, of course, there are the ones about the loka (the 'world' in Buddhist parlance) being only a few dhammas at one of the six doorways. The list really does "go on." You know these quotes as well as I do - better, probably - so I won't bother trying to find them. -------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Okay, Ken, so I guess you don't have the evidence to present. ------------------------------------------------------------- ------------ <. . .> KH> > I wouldn't even think of interpreting a sutta without expert help. Howard: > Well, Ken, that immediately puts an end to the conversation. C'est la vie. -------------- Oh well, at least I'm getting the last word. :-) --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Okay. (Whoops - guess not! LOL!) ---------------------------------------------------------- Ken H =========================== With metta, Howard #80649 From: "Sukinder" Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 8:23 pm Subject: Re: Do You Endorse Formal Development Of Right Concentration (Sammaasamaadhi)? sukinderpal Dear Suan (and Ven. Pannabahulo), I would like to make some comments. You will see that I take issue with all that you wrote here. Firstly, it appears that you have no hesitation to try and push the Venerable to make a categorical statement about something when instead you could be discussing Dhamma points leading to it. Secondly, do you not consider the possibility of "good intention" on the part of Ven P. with regard to not "saying" certain things? And have you considered your own intentions in asking him to make a statement about his position? What are you going to do with the `answer' either way? If "yes", will you be happy simply to close the matter, seeing no need to discuss further? If "no", are you going to use the `idea' in context of yet other ideas and hope to be able to change the Venerable's mind? And if in the end he does not agree with you, will you consider him not worthy of being a Saakyaputto? Why do you even bring in this concept anyway? Why not stick to discussing the Dhamma?! You consider yourself an exponent of Abhidhamma, but I see little hint of the need for precision here. When referring to "formal meditation" do you not consider paramattha dhammas? Should we not first find out what `samatha' is and what is `vipassana' in terms of characteristic, function and cause of particular mental phenomena before jumping on to making a statement about `formal meditation or not'. You say that, "'practice of samatha' refers to the formal development of the Right Concentration". This sounds to me a case of hiding one concept behind another without a need to first determine what these are precisely. And by saying that "Right Concentration is part of the Fourth Noble Truth" does not add anything, does it? And why this: "So, I expect you, a Theravada sama.na, to be clear about and serious about the Forth Noble Truth fully. Here, please notice the adverb `FULLY'." You seem to be coming from a position that *you* know the 4NT and are qualified to judge Ven. P on the basis of that. Well, as far as I'm concerned, you are wrong about the Path and so I don't think that you really understand the 4NT. That said, I must inform you that when I read the article posted by Ven P about his teacher, I realized that his and my understanding of Pariyatti / Patipatti are not the same. And this is not just a question of whether "formal meditation" was taught by the Buddha or not, but more basic, about how anything stated in the Texts are read and interpreted. For me Dhamma, any part of it, is about NOW, whatever the reality, these are conditioned and anatta. Failing to understand this is the reason why such ideas as `formal meditation' and `retreats' etc. arise and are held. In other words, from my perspective, the so called `meditators' are simply caught up and lost in their own idea about practice which has nothing at all to do with the way things are. And you Suan, seem to be similarly lost in ideas, those expressed in this post of yours. Sorry for the bluntness, but believe me; I do with the hope that it will be useful in some way. Metta, Sukin #80650 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 8:36 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga, was Anatta as a strategy buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > If I had more time I would discuss more, James. But I have to round > off this thread and maybe others can continue. You have a good > dialogue with Scott. > Nina. James: Since you don't want to continue this thread I will only comment on one thing. I have some confusion about what you mean when you write because you aren't specific enough. When you write, "Also for the development of samaadhi, understanding is needed: one has to know when the citta is kusala and when akusala." I don't know what you mean by "know"- if you mean a theoretical know (mundane right view) or directly know (supramundane right view): "This right view is twofold: mundane (lokiya) and supramundane (lokuttara). Herein, the knowledge of kamma as one's own and knowledge which is in conformity with the (Four Noble) Truths are mundane right view; or, in brief, (mundane right view is) all understanding that is accompanied by the taints.2 Understanding connected with the noble paths and fruits is supramundane right view.3 2: The knowledge of kamma as one's own (kammassakatañana) is often expressed in the Suttas thus: "I am the owner of my kamma, the heir of my kamma, I spring from my kamma, I am bound to my kamma, I have kamma as my refuge. Whatever kamma I perform, good or bad, of that I am the heir." In short, it is knowledge of the moral efficacy of action, of the fact that one's willed deeds fashion one's destiny. Knowledge in conformity with the truths (saccanulomikañana) is conceptual knowledge of the Four Noble Truths, accompanied by understanding and acceptance of them. 3: The understanding or wisdom (pañña) connected with the paths and fruits is supramundane because its object is the supramundane dhamma, Nibbana, and because it leads to the overcoming of the world. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nanamoli/wheel377.html#n-2 James: If one is still a worldling, with all of the taints, it is not possible for that person to "directly know" when the citta is kusala or akusala. That is just not possible. The worldling can only theoretically know the difference between kusala and akusala states. Do you mean theoretically knowing or directly knowing? If by "knowing" you mean satipatthana or vipassana, then that is directly knowing and is only possible at the supramundane states. The worldling can only hope to directly know the three characteristics of dhammas: anicca, dukkha, and anatta, he/she cannot hope to directly know if cittas are kusala or akusala (that is too complicated): (I) the purification of morality (sila-visuddhi) is (II) the purification of mind (citta-visuddhi); its goal: (III) the purification of view (ditthi-visuddhi); its goal: (IV) the purification by overcoming doubt (kankhāvitarana-visuddhi); its goal: (V) the purification by knowledge and vision of what is path and not-path (maggāmagga-ñānadassana-visuddhi); its goal: (VI) the purification by knowledge and vision of the path-progress (patipadā-ñānadassana-visuddhi); its goal: (VII) the purification of knowledge and vision (ñānadassana-visuddhi); but the goal of this purification is deliverance freed from all clinging. (I) "Purification of morality (sīla-visuddhi) consists of the 4-fold purity of morality (catu-pārisuddhi-sīla), namely: restraint with regard to the Disciplinary Code (pātimokkhasamvara-sīla), sense-restraint (indriysamvara-sīla), purity of livelihood (ājīvapārisuddhi-sīla), morality with regard to the 4 requisites (paccaya-sannissita-sīla)" (Vis.M. XVIII). On these 4 terms, s. sīla. - In the case of a layman, it entails the observance of whatever moral rules (5 or more) he has taken upon himself. (II) "Purification of mind (citta-visuddhi) is a name for the 8 attainments (= absorptions: jhāna, q.v.), as well as for neighbourhood-concentration (upacāra-samādhi; s. samādhi)." (ib.). (III) "By purification of view (ditthi-visuddhi) is meant the understanding, according to reality, of mind and corporeality (nāmarūpa, q.v.)... which is founded on undeludedness (wisdom) as base, and which in manifold ways determines mind and corporeality after overcoming all belief in a persollality (attā: self, ego.)." (ib.). (IV) "By purification by overcoming doubt (kankhā-vitarana-visuddhi) is meant the understanding which, by grasping the conditions of this mind and corporeality, has escaped from all doubt with regard to the 3 times (past, present, future)." (ib. XIX) (V) "By purification by knowledge and vision of what is path and not-path (maggāmagga-ñānadassana-visuddhi) is meant that understanding which knows the right path from the wrong path: 'This is the right path, that the wrong path.' " (ib. XX) VI) Purification by knowledge and vision of the path-progress (patipadā-ñānadassana-visuddhi) is the insight perfected in 8 kinds of knowledge, together with the 9th knowledge, the 'knowledge adapting itself to truth'. By the 8 kinds of knowledge are here meant the following, which are freed from defilements, follow the right process, and are considered as insight, namely: 1. knowledge consisting in contemplation of rise and fall (udayabbayānupassanā-ñāna), 2. in contemplation of dissolution (bhangānupassanā-ñāna), 3. in awareness of terror (or the fearful) (bhayatūpatthānā-ñāna), 4. in contemplation of misery (ādīnavānupassanā-ñāna), 5. in contemplation of aversion (nibbidānupassanā-ñāna), 6. in the desire for deliverance (muccitu-kamyatā-ñāna), 7. in reflecting contemplation (patisankhānupassanā-ñāna), 8. in equanimity regarding all formations of existence (sankhārupekkhā-ñāna) - which is followed by 9. in adaptation to truth (saccānulomika-ñāna). (VII) Purification of knowledge and vision (ñānadassana-visuddhi) is the knowledge associated with any of the 4 kinds of supermundane path-consciousness (s. ariyapuggala). Each of the 4 kinds of path-consciousness performs at the one and the same time 4 functions, namely: the function of full understanding (pariññā, q.v.) of suffering, the function of overcoming (pahāna, q.v.) the origin of suffering, the function of realizing (sacchikiriyā) the extinction of suffering, the function of developing (bhāvanā, q.v.) the supermundane Noble Eightfold Path (magga, q.v.). http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/u_v/visuddhi.htm Metta, James #80651 From: "colette" Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 8:18 pm Subject: Re: Anatta as a strategy ksheri3 Hi James, If you don't mind, I'd like to get into this mess. James, does our sister truely believe that any focused and/or directed meditation is WRONG VIEW? I think there's some misinterpretation going on! If I may interpet some of what you say that Sarah believes in through meditation I think that what she is suggesting is that of a "free- form" style where she has spent many hours learning how to achieve a samadhi, a calm, a peace, and a state of well abiding so for her, in her methodology, she would not rely on the need to focus on a single rupa or a single nama. she automatically carries her meditations through NO MATTER WHAT THE FOCUS IS and maybe she finds difficulty with "going into a session" with a pre-determined concept and objective. James, I think your definitions, your objectives, and your methodology sounds good. I'd like to hear Scott's reply as well. Happy New Year Group. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Scott, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" > wrote: > > > > Dear James, > > > > Thanks for the reply: > > > > A: "This is a good start. Does it say anywhere that this 'wrong > > concentration' is forced or directed concentration toward a specific > > object? In other words, does it define wrong concentration anywhere?" > > > > Scott: Wrong concentration would be concentration that arises with > > akusala citta. I'm sure it is a rather basic definition. <....> #80652 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 10:23 pm Subject: Re: Anatta as a strategy kelvin_lwin Hi Scott and James, III 17 Besides, they should be understood as classed according to craving and ignorance, and according to whether one has had practice in seerenity and insight. For if a man is overwhelmed by craving, his progress is difficult. if not, it is easy. And if he is overwhelmed by ignorance his direct-knowledge is sluggish. if not, it is swift. And if he has had no practice in serenity, his progress is difficult. If he has, it is easy. And if he has had no practice in insight, his direct-knowledge is sluggish. If he has, it is swift. III 28 But mundane concentration should be developed by one who has taken his stand on virtue that is quite purified in the way already stated. He should server any of the tend impediments that he may have. he should taken approach the good friend, the giver of a meditation subject. and he should apprehend from among the forty tmeditation subjects one that suits his own temperament. After that he should avoid a monastery unfavorable to the development of concentration and go to live in one that is favorable. Then he should server the lesser impediments and not overlook any of the directions for development. This is in brief. IV 35 Herein, the way to guarding it is this: (1) Abode, (2) resort, (3) and speech, (4) and person, (5) the food, (6) the culture, 9&) the posture - IV 41 Postures: walking suits one; standing or sitting or lying down suits another. So he should try them, like the abode, for three days each. and that posture is suitable in which his unconcentrate mind becomes concentrate and his concentrated mind becomes more so. Any other should be understood as unsuitable. #80653 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 10:31 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy sarahprocter... Hi Larry, --- LBIDD@... wrote: > Larry: I asked Nina to explain chapters XIV and XVII because the 5 > khandhas and their dependent arising is the foundation of all insight. > The Visuddhimagga is comprehensive. It covers everything included in > sila, samadhi, and panna. > > Perhaps this isn't the group for pithy discussions on meditation ;-) .... S: ;-) What else is meditation other than the growth of 'sila, samadhi, and panna' as being discussed in detail, czarefully considered and developed accordingly? A Happy Meditative New Year! Metta, Sarah ======== #80654 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 10:58 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sutta vs Abhidhamma sarahprocter... Hi Alex, Hope you're enjoying your holiday. Not ice hockey, I know. Are you a skier? --- Alex wrote: >A: The thing is, you are saying a commentarial interpretation and I am > giving a sutta. The style and content of AP is simply TOO different > from things spoken by the Buddha. ... S: Are you suggesting all the suttas have the same style? Would you like me to give examples of suttas which have a style more like the Abhidhamma? What about verses? Quite a different style. ... > A: Of course AP has some Dhamma in it, ... S: lol, I appreciate this concession!! .... > a lot of material in AP is additional. ... S: OK, subject closed. You believe you have a better grasp of what the Buddha taught and what can be classified as Dhamma Vinaya than the ancient commentators and elders at the first 3 Councils. ... > What factor of Awakening says to study 7 books of AP? ... S: No factor of Awakening refers to any books or any Pitaka, Alex. No SP or VP is mentioned either. The Tipitaka is a classification which was introduced by the arahants at these early councils. I've given many quotes on this. ... > 7th Book was authored by Moggaliputta Tissa Thera at 3rd council. ... S: Yes, following the Matika as laid down by the Buddha himself. He foresaw the schisms that would arise at this time and the need for the Kathavatthu to be 'authored' to counteract the erroneous interpretations that would (and did) spring up by various sects. It's made very clear that even the Kathavatthu is Buddha vaccana, not Moggaliputta vaccana. .... > > Theravada as we know it is MUCH later then the first council. After > all, Buddhaghosa and commentaries such as AA are later. ... S: Still, Buddha vaccana. Again, if you believe your interpretation is more accurate than these Elders, who am I to argue further:-). ... > > S: Again, you are mistaken here. In this 'peasant society' as you > refer to it, people were highly sophisticated, skilled and had > attained the highest jhanas. > >>> > Sophistication & attainment of Jhana are not always compatible. Some > people like to speculate too much rather than practice. Some members > here keep denying the value of formal meditation. > > Jhana's are the easiest for unsophisticated farmers who don't have TV > sets, dvds, radios, business, tax laws to follow and to find loops to > exploit (legally), etc. .... S: !! Without a very, very clear understanding of what calm is, what kusala and akusala are and how particular objects lead to calm, there won't be even a little development of samatha. Forget about jhana whether you're an 'unsophisticated farmer' or a 'TV fanatic'! Even if there is some appreciation of the true quality of calm and so on, as soon as there is any trying or wishing to develop it, such as by cutting off entertainment, focussing on an object, attachment is there and one is merely following a wrong practice of become more and more self-obsessed. The Buddha taught the one way of satipatthana. This is the development of sati-sampajanna, awareness and understanding of whatever dhamma appears. Detachment, not attachment. .... > > Many were 'ripe' for enlightenment, having developed the > > paramis over incalculable aeons. It was no coincidence at all that > they were born at this time. > >>> > > Paramis are later (proto) Mahayana addon. Please tell me where 10 > paramis are mentioned and explain in the 4 NIKAYAS. ... S: Forget the labels and obsession with chronology. Is generosity not taught and encouraged in the 4 NIKAYAS? What about sila? Renunciation? Wisdom and so on? These are qualities which are developed with right understanding, with satipatthana. ... > Many did hear only little b4 arahantship. Considering that many > people achieved Arahatship in a week or 2 - obviously they couldn't > hear a lot.... ... S: Yes. Conditions. In their last lives they may have heard just a little. How much had Sariputta heard in his previous lives from former Buddhas? .... >A: Of course, when > > Sariputta heard a single paragraph, this was enough for him to > become enlightened. Not for us!! > >>>> > > Those who developed a lot of Jhana could. :) ... S: Many, many, many who had developed the highest jhanas could not even reach the first stage of insight after listening to the Buddha. How about Devadatta, for example? :) ... > You too. I'll speak later. I'll be missing for a while. ... S: Look forward to your being found again:) Happy Abhi-New Year! Metta, Sarah ====== #80655 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 10:59 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy lbidd2 Hi Sarah, S: ;-) What else is meditation other than the growth of 'sila, samadhi, and panna' as being discussed in detail, carefully considered and developed accordingly? A Happy Meditative New Year! Metta, Sarah Larry: What else indeed! Happy New Year to you too! Larry #80656 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 11:28 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Letter_from_Pannabahulo (1) sarahprocter... Dear Ven Pannabahulo, Firstly, thank you so much for sharing the articles, letters and your own comments. They're very helpful for us all to consider further. You've already received many responses and good wishes. Let me add mine (possibly in a few notes when I have time). I hope you don't mind the 'pickiness' in the same format I used the other day in responding to Charles Pereira's 'Introduction' to his book. --- sarah abbott wrote: > I went to Myanmar to practice meditation under the guidance of Sayadaw U > Tejiniya at Shwe Oo Min Dhammasukkha Forest Centre, Yangon. I spent > three > and a half months there which included the Vassa (Rains retreat). > > Sayadaw teaches Satipatthana but with an emphasis on Cittanupassana > (Observation of the mind). .... S: Comment 1 This is where we already differ in our understanding of satipatthana. If there is an 'emphasis' on any dhamma(s) with an idea of observation or of going somewhere to practice meditation, for me, this already has taken the practice, the understanding, away from the present moment, the present dhamma appearing. By the time a particular kind of citta, such as citta with dosa, has been observed, it has long since past. So this is thinking (with attachment), rather than awareness or understanding. .... >Like his late teacher, Shwe Oo Min Sayadaw, > he > says that meditation is mind work and so it is important to give > predominance to the mind. ... S: Comment 2 What the Buddha taught over and over again is the understanding of dhammas appearing through 6 door-ways. What about visible object or sound as objects of awareness. I think that by focussing on particular mental states, such as attachment or aversion, these are bound to be taken for 'my' mental states because there is no detachment from whatever appears. .... >He teaches that meditation practice is only > possible if the mind and body is completely relaxed and that trying to > force anything – concentration included – is lobha. He stresses that in > order for Vipassana insight to arise the mind must be free from lobha, > dosa and moha. ... S: Comment 3 I don't believe the Buddha ever taught that there can only be practice if 'the mind and body is completely relaxed'. In the Satipatthana Sutta it's made clear than there can be/should be awareness at any time of any state at all. You appreciate KS's emphasis on NOW. If now the mind is agitated, why would one be concerned with another time, another mental state, another reality? If so, one is dreaming with attachment, rather than following the path. This is why she emphasises NOW so much and so strongly when meditators visit her in particular. You refer to vipassana insight. There can never be any vipassana insight while we have the idea of excluding certain states of mind (i.e lobha, dosa, moha)or have the idea of any selection or predominant dhammas to be known. .... >Whatever phenomena arises one must just simply be aware; > if > there is lobha or dosa towards what arises, then one should simply be > aware of that. External objects are of no importance; what matters is > the > minds reaction to them. ... S: Comment 4 It's easy to say 'whatever phenomena arises.....aware'. What does this mean? Again, if there is an idea of just being aware of particular defilements we'd prefer to be rid of or an idea that there's no need to be aware of rupas such as sound and hardness or namas such as seeing and hearing, we go off-track again. This is why there has to be a certain amount of careful study and consideration. .... >He says that meditation is not to be found in > the > posture one adopts, but we must be mindful of the mental states whatever > we are doing. ... S: Comment 5 Here at least we agree that the posture (a concept) is immaterial. But again, awareness has to be aware of what is appearing, not just mental states. Otherwise the idea of atta (self) will always be there. .... > He says that it takes no more effort to be aware of the mind than it > does > to know that one is sitting, standing and so on. All that arises is > merely > natural phenomena; and of course it is anatta. > > (to be contd) ... S: Comment 6 In a way, I agree with this. Awareness and understanding develop naturally, 'following' dhammas which have arisen already. It's not a question of making any effort. Yes, natural phenomena which are anatta, beyond anyone's control and not worthy of any preference:). Metta, Sarah ====== #80657 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 11:32 pm Subject: Re: Anatta as a strategy buddhatrue Hi Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Dear James, > > Thanks for the reply: > > James: "Okay, but Sarah wrote that any type of concentration toward a > specific object is wrong concentration, automatically. In other > words, it doesn't matter if the intent is wholesome, if there is > directed concentration toward an object it is wrong concentration. > Are you now telling me that that isn't the case? That the intent is > important to consider when determining wrong concentration?" > > Scott: I'll let Sarah field questions related to her comments since I > didn't make them. James: Okay, fair enough. I just wanted to discuss the content of the statement, not really so much who said it. Besides, I post to Sarah too much anyway so you can field any comments directed to her. ;-)) Nina passes me off to you and Sarah passes you off to me- we are like awkward dancing partners. ;-)) > What would you consider wrong concentration to be,? James: I consider wrong concentration to be of the same type Buddhaghosa stated: concentration to commit an unwholesome act like killing or stealing. I consider right concentration to be the four jhanas. Take for example, Devadatta. Devadatta developed right concentration, the jhanas, but he failed to develop the other factors of the path. So, he developed supreme psychic abilities but didn't purify his mind. He became jealous of the Buddha and tried to kill him on several occasions. Some might argue that Devadatta developed wrong concentration, but I would disagree. Additionally, the Buddha taught that because Devadatta developed the jhanas that when his kamma runs out in hell he will be reborn as a Silent Buddha. So, I don't think that all sorts of criteria needs to be applied to concentration to make it Right Concentration. It doesn't need to be accompanied by wisdom either to make it Right Concentration. Right Concentration is simply the jhanas. How does one know > that the 'intent is wholesome'? Simply because one wishes it were so? James: That has to do with the other factors of the Noble Eightfold Path, not just Right Concentration. > > J: "Remember, we are talking about meditation here. Focusing on the > breath, a color, an element, death, the Triple Gem, etc., we are not > talking about focusing on killing someone or stealing something. > Sarah is basically saying that if I sit down cross legged, with my > spine erect, and establish mindfulness on a chose object: breath, > color, death, etc., then that is automatically wrong concentration. > From your research of the Vism. do you agree or disagree with this? > and, please, don't eel wriggle- be specific." > > Scott: 'Eel-wriggle'???! Again, you can discuss what Sarah is saying > with Sarah. I'm assuming we are discussing Concentration. Is this > what you mean by 'meditation'? I did read an interesting opinion on > this by Mrs. Rhys-Davids regarding wrong concentration > (Dhammasa"nga.ni p. 91): > > "Concentration of mind is essential to the higher life of Buddhism; > nevertheless, so far is it from constituting excellence, that it is > also an essential to effective evil doing. If the mind be > undistracted, says Buddhagosa, the murderer's knife does not miss, the > theft does not miscarry, and by a mind of single intent (lit. one > taste) evil conduct is carried out..." > > Scott: If, by meditation, you mean bhaavanaa, one might very well be > developing wrong concentration by sitting in the described posture and > imagining that one has 'established mindfulness on a chosen object'. > One can, due to Wrong Concentration, sit and focus on what ever for a > long time. Is it kusala? James: If the other factors of the Noble Eightfold Path are present, it is kusala. If not, then it is likely not. Is it Jhaana? James: If the hindrances are suppressed and the jhana factors arise, then it is jhana. > > I believe you have already noted that your aim in 'meditating' is not > jhaana but relaxation, which by my way of seeing it, is akusala and > therefore Wrong Concentration. James: I NEVER wrote that the aim of my meditation is just relaxation. I simply wrote that I haven't achieved a jhana yet because I don't have the time and energy to devote to practice. However, relaxation as a goal doesn't make the meditation unwholesome. That is going way too far. There is no profitable reason, from a > Dhamma perspective, for learning to relax by focusing on the breath > and sitting in a given posture. James: Don't be ridiculous. The Buddha taught Mindfulness of Breathing in several suttas. It is a standard. I develop Wrong Concentration when I > repeat scales on the guitar, focusing to improve my playing. It is > still concentration. James: That is not Wrong Concentration, it just isn't Right Concentration. You are taking the definition of Wrong Concentration way too far- even though you yourself have quoted two different sources defining it. > > I'm saying that it seems quite difficult to know when it is Right > Concentration that is being developed. I'm saying that it is not > automatically Right Concentration, that it is difficult to tell the > difference between right and wrong concentration without the requisite > level of pan~n~naa. James: Again, no that isn't true. Wisdom doesn't need to accompany Right Concentration: it just has to be the jhanas. Don't complicate that which doesn't need complication. > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > Metta, James #80658 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 11:39 pm Subject: Re: Anatta as a strategy buddhatrue Hi Colette, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "colette" wrote: > > Hi James, > > If you don't mind, I'd like to get into this mess. > > James, does our sister truely believe that any focused and/or > directed meditation is WRONG VIEW? > > I think there's some misinterpretation going on! James: I don't know- could be. Our sister is just too busy surfing to get back to me! ;-)) > > If I may interpet some of what you say that Sarah believes in through > meditation I think that what she is suggesting is that of a "free- > form" style where she has spent many hours learning how to achieve a > samadhi, a calm, a peace, and a state of well abiding so for her, in > her methodology, she would not rely on the need to focus on a single > rupa or a single nama. she automatically carries her meditations > through NO MATTER WHAT THE FOCUS IS and maybe she finds difficulty > with "going into a session" with a pre-determined concept and > objective. James: That sounds rather like Zen meditation- just sitting. I think Sarah does her meditation while surfing and eating curry chicken (you should see how she concentrates on it! ;-)) > > James, I think your definitions, your objectives, and your > methodology sounds good. James: Thank you! Currently, I am trying to meditate on Mindfulness of Death, Mindfulness of Peace, Repulsiveness of Food, and Mindfulness of the Four Elements. > > I'd like to hear Scott's reply as well. > > Happy New Year Group. > > toodles, > colette Happy New Year to you and the Group also! Metta, James #80659 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Dec 30, 2007 11:43 pm Subject: Re: Anatta as a strategy buddhatrue Hi Kelvin! Good to hear from you again! Hope your retreats went well. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" > III 28 > But mundane concentration should be developed by one who has taken > his stand on virtue that is quite purified in the way already > stated. He should server any of the tend impediments that he may > have. he should taken approach the good friend, the giver of a > meditation subject. and he should apprehend from among the forty > tmeditation subjects one that suits his own temperament. After that > he should avoid a monastery unfavorable to the development of > concentration and go to live in one that is favorable. Then he > should server the lesser impediments and not overlook any of the > directions for development. This is in brief. Yeah, I seem to be stuck at this stage for years now! ;-)) Metta, James #80660 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 12:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy sarahprocter... Hi James (& Colette), --- buddhatrue wrote: > > James, does our sister truely believe that any focused and/or > > directed meditation is WRONG VIEW? > > > > I think there's some misinterpretation going on! > > James: I don't know- could be. Our sister is just too busy surfing to > get back to me! ;-)) .... S: ;-)) Ah, but I'm keeping an eye on the misquotes, lol! Yes, surfing and busy with other replies. I'll leave this thread to Colette and Scott for now.... (trying to stay out of trouble, you know, lol!!) ... > James: That sounds rather like Zen meditation- just sitting. I think > Sarah does her meditation while surfing and eating curry chicken (you > should see how she concentrates on it! ;-)) .... S: ;-)) Really!! Seems a long time since I ate a curry, you better visit us again and give me the excuse for that yummy concentration:). .... > > > > James, I think your definitions, your objectives, and your > > methodology sounds good. > > James: Thank you! Currently, I am trying to meditate on Mindfulness > of Death, Mindfulness of Peace, Repulsiveness of Food, and Mindfulness > of the Four Elements. .... S: Oh well, that should at least keep you out of trouble tonight:-). A very Mindful, Wise and Peaceful New Year to you both. Metta, Sarah ======= #80661 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 1:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Letter_from_Pannabahulo (2) sarahprocter... Dear Pannabahulo, > <..> He instructs meditators not to label – > that obscures detail and tires the meditator. He tells yogis to switch > to > Anapana-sati or contemplation of vedana when strong mind states and > emotions disturb the mind. When the mind is calm he tells us to return > to > observing the mind. .... S: Comment 1 As before. Why? To me, it suggests a lack of understanding of conditioned realities. The most important thing is to understand them as anatta, impossible to be controlled or selected. ..... > > He also stresses that bare awareness is not enough. We need to use > dhamma > vicaya – our own wisdom – to find out why mental states arise and how > best > we can deal with unpleasant and painful ones. .... S: Comment 2 Again, this idea of dealing with unpleasant and painful states is common. Why do we want to 'deal' with them? Because of strong attachment to Self, surely? ... > In my case depression was the problem. Sayadaw also suffered from > terrible > depression earlier in his life. Using his own wisdom, and following his > teacher’s instructions, he was able to overcome this condition. .... S: Comment 3 We always tend to think that dosa of any kind is the problem because it's so unpleasant. However, really it's the attachment and ignorance that's the problem. It may seem that the condition is overcome for now, but the tendency is there. .... Metta, sarah ======== #80662 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 1:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Letter_from_Pannabahulo (2) sarahprocter... contd Dear Ven Pannabahulo, Here I'm looking at your comments on the audio with A.Sujin which I'm delighted you've been listening to. ..... > When I went to Myanmar I took several of the DSG discussions with Ajan > Sujin that I had on CDs. These were recorded on various trips to India > and > in Bangkok. What I heard really shook me. I found that most of these > Dhamma discussions were not really discussions at all; they were > constant > requests for explanation and clarification of terminology. And most of > the > group remained silent throughout. .... S: Comment A I understand what you're saying. A few comments for you to keep in mind here. The audio discussions you're listening to have been edited by Jon and I. So much of the background chatter, laughs, side-discussions and rambles have been cut out. They are actually are personal recordings and editing which we make available to others who'd like to hear them. If you listened to regular, unedited discussions at the Foundation, they'd probably sound quite different - you'd hear lots more laughter, crashing glasses, people talking at the same time, mobile conversations in the background, Thai, mini-talks by visitors, sometimes long silences, coughs and sneezes, discussions when Ajahn Sujin is out of the room for long periods....maybe more your cup of tea!! If beginners to Abhidhamma are presnt, or 'meditators' with an idea of practice at another time in another place or of selection of any kind, their questions will always be given priority and the longest answers, I assure you! Yes, when we visit, we consider the opportunities for asking Ajahn questions on points are very precious. Others feel the same way and this is why we all respect and help give others the opportunity to follow a line of questioning by keeping quiet for the most part. ..... > > Ajan Sujin does not share this ‘terminological’ perception of Dhamma. > Her > approach is very practical. Her constant response to such questions is > “Yes, but what about NOW?” .... S: Comment B I don't think any of us have a 'terminological' perception of Dhamma. For my part, I couldn't care less what a Dhamma is called and have never had any idea that learning Pali is any path to right understanding of Dhammas. However, we are using common terms for clarification of meanings. When I first listened to recordings of Ajahn Sujin well over 30 years ago, there was a lot I couldn't understand, partly because of the Pali use. It helps a lot to be able to follow and really consider the meanings carefully. Contrary to your impression, she strongly encourages this careful considering of terms, of suttas with commentary assistance and so on. Yes, she always brings topics and terms back to the present moment. This is why we raise them with her rather than with a Pali expert. She has a deep and profound understanding not just of the terminology but of the essence of the Abhidhamma or Dhamma itself as you suggest. I'd also add that often we have no idea of the reason someone else may be asking a particular question when we listen to the audio. For example, Jon often asks questions on behalf of others without mentioning names. Nina often asks questions which are relevant to her writing or translation of the Vism -Tika. My 'technical' questions usually arise from discussions here or with writers of great influence, such as B.Bodhi. For example, on the series you referred to listening to recently in India, I recall raising some very detailed questions relating to jhana and particular suttas (in Lumbini and Patna). I can appreciate that these might seem to have no relevance to this moment. Why did I ask them? Many friends here believe jhana is essential in the development of insight. I personally have little interest at all in jhana and think this is quite wrong. B.Bodhi wrote a paper (which I shared here) in which his conclusion was that the texts suggest jhana is not essential until possibly the stage of anagami. He gave sutta refs. I didn't think even this was right, but had difficulty with the suttas (esp. as I don't have the commentaries). K. Sujin kindly clarified all the points in a way which made great sense to me. I summarised these and sent them to B.Bodhi for his consideration. [His response was to effect that if we looked at the commentaries, her clarifications were correct]. By stressing jhana and meditation and thinking one has to cut oneself off from daily life, I believe people go very wrong, miss the point of the Buddha's teachings and often end up in serious trouble. So I try to help by stressing seeing and visible object now, hearing and sound now, thinking now......all so anatta. I don't think it's in the least useful to give an analysis or long story like this about why one has asked particular questions or kept silent, but it's clearly bothered you. Again, I think the emphasis should be on understanding present dhammas now. What's appearing now? Seeing? Visible object? Thinking? Confusion? Conceit? Any dhamma can be known instead of being too concerned about why others ask particular questions. ..... > > The Lord Buddha taught the truth of suffering, its cause, its cessation > and the path leading to cessation. There is also the analogy with the > ‘handful of leaves’. To my understanding, theory (Pariyatti) and > practice > (Patipatti) must develop together. The theory is the map of the journey; > the practice is the actual journey. If we plan a long journey it is no > good studying the whole route in detail beforehand. We could never > remember all the details and we’d just get hopelessly lost. .... S: Comment C No one I know here has any idea of needing to remember all the details. I certainly don;t. If we talk about suffering, however, we have to carefully consider what this is. What do you understand by suffering? Suffering of what? I heard a recording today on which A.Sujin was emphasising how useless it is to just talk about the ti-lakkhana without clearly understanding seeing and visible object and the other dhammas which these are the characteristics of. She mentioned the subtle details we have to consider carefully. ... > We must also remember that the main reason given for the decline of the > Dhamma in India – and a major cause of the Theravada / Mahayana split – > is > usually explained as being due to the fact that Dhamma practice had > fallen > away into mere academic study. .... S: Comment D I think due to lack of understanding and interest in other topics, such as beautiful poetry. Such a lack of understanding led to a lack of confidence in the Vinaya too. ... > > On his deathbed the Lord Buddha said that the Dhamma-vinaya will “Be > your > teacher after I am gone”. Vinaya just doesn’t mean the rules for monks > and > nuns; it means the practice of Dhamma. .... S: Comment E Yes, we agree. The direct understanding of dhammas appearing now. We'd better be very clear on what right practice, patipatti is. When there's any idea of selection or choosing of objects, it's not patipatti. ... >If we look at the stories that > surrounded the forming of the vinaya in the Vinaya Pitaka, we get a very > clear picture of how a Dhamma practitioner should behave in word, action > and livelihood. The Lord Buddha did not teach ‘Buddhism’ he taught > Dhamma > – vinaya! ... S: Comment F Yes, Dhamma-Vinaya refers to all the teachings as contained in the Tipitaka and ancient commentaries. Just reading stories in the Vinaya is not enough to let go the idea of people performing actions and following rules. The firm understanding of anatta and elements only develops from condidering the subtle teachings deeper and deeper. .... <...> > But on one CD it is said that “We know that dosa is caused by Lobha.” > But > this is academic learning and is not anywhere near as powerful as the > direct experience of it. ... S: Comment G We don't know when we hear/read this what the other's citta is, whether it is just academic learning or whether there is any direct understanding of dhammas. Why do we care? At such moments, what are the realities? Thinking? Conceit? Kindness? Hearing? These are the dhammas to be known, rather than being overly-concerned with stories about the others. I agree with you that the questions are useless unless they help us to understand present dhammas. .... > If we concentrate only on the terminology of the Buddha’s teaching we > are > in the field of linguistics or even mere history. The essential thing is > how best to apply the teachings so as to improve the quality of our > minds. .... S: Comment H I think the purpose should be for the right understanding of dhammas appearing now without preference or wish for any particular quality. ... <...> > In the Cullavaga of the Vinaya Pitaka there is an interesting story. Two > monks, who are of the Bhramin caste, approach the Lord Buddha and > complain > that many of his disciples are teaching in the local languages/dialects > of > the people. <...> .... S: Comment I With respect, I think you're reciting this to the converted. We all agree that our common language is best. If I'm speaking to A.Sujin or Nina, the lauguage and use of Pali terms is 'common'. If I'm speaking to someone with little Abhidhamma knowledge here or an aversion to Pali, then I'll avoid such terms as far as possible as Sayadaw U Tejiniya rightly does. .... > I hope that this is helpful to DSG members; I am full of admiration for > the way Ajan Sujin so patiently answers those terminological questions > and > for the way DSG members are so attentive to what is going on. But we > must > remember that it is the practice of the Dhamma that is of utmost > importance. ... S: Comment J This is why it is very important to understand what 'practice' is. If the theory is wrong, the practice will be wrong. I'd like to also mention that Ajahn Sujin herself often brings up the detailed points. Sometimes the questions follow on from her comments not properly understood from a previous occasion. For example, she may have referred to the 'parinnas' in a particular discussion. So on another occasion one may ask her to elaborate in some details. The same with 'nimitta' or 'vipassana nanas' or anything else. Sometimes a topic may be finished as far as I'm concerned and then the next day she may bring it up again. I listened to a recording recently in which she started with a lot of detail on the meaning of yoniso manasikara, following on from an earlier discussion. She often refers to Pali texts and shares further references/asks us for ours. So it very much depends on the occasion how she responds. Sometimes she may be ready for a break or be tired too! I understand as sometimes here I write fully and sometimes I just suggest someone reads up in the texts or 'Useful Posts' or just consider dhammas now! Conditions. I like her reminder that we should all 'mind our own cittas', rather than being concerned with the others'! ..... > > These are my thoughts and my conclusions. I will be happy to learn what > other members of DSG think and feel. .... S: Thank you very much for all the trouble you've gone to. Much appreciated. I hope this long answer helps. Metta, Sarah [p.s. The c.d.s you were given were of v.detailed discussions. I think you'd like the first series, the 'Erik' series on www.dhammastudygroup.org more. These are 'simpler' with less 'terminology'.] ======== #80663 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 4:22 am Subject: Perfections Corner (69) nichiconn Dear All, http://www.zolag.co.uk/ - The Perfections Leading to Enlightenment by Sujin Boriharnwanaket; translated by Nina van Gorkom. Chapter 9: The Perfection of Loving-kindness (continued) When mettaa, adosa cetasika, arises we are at that moment free from hate or aversion. When karu.naa cetasika arises, we are concerned about someone who suffers and wants to assist him. When someone else is happy because of gain, honour or praise, and we also rejoice in his happiness, there is muditaa cetasika. When we have no lobha or dosa and we are evenminded and impartial towards all beings, there is tatramajjhattataa cetasika, which is the brahmavihaara of upekkhaa, equanimity. If someone wants to extend mettaa towards a person who conducts himself in an unpleasant and irritating way, he should, to begin with, develop adosa cetasika, the reality that is freedom from anger. The brahmavihaaras, divine abidings, of loving-kindness, compassion, sympathetic joy and equanimity are dhammas which are faultless and superior. A person with mettaa is faultless and when he extends mettaa to someone else he is superior. The practice of the four brahmavihaaras is the right practice towards all beings. We read in the "Atthasaalinii" (I, Part V, XIII, The Divine States, 195): "And as Brahmaa divinities live with faultless thoughts, so aspirants associated with these four states live like the Brahmaas. Thus, because of the meaning of 'divine' and of their faultless nature, they are called 'Divine States'." These four divine abidings lead to calm, to non-disturbance and they are faultless. They are the way leading to purity. There is a particular order in the cultivation of the four brahmavihaaras, mettaa being the first, since each of them is a supporting condition for the following brahmavihaara {*}. We read in the "Atthasaalinii" (same section, 196) why they are without limits: "And all of them arise in an immeasurable field, therefore are they called the 'Immeasurables'. For beings without limit constitute their field (object)." {*} We read in the "Atthasaalinii" (I, Part V, XIII, The Divine States, 196) that the person cultivating the brahmavihaaras, after he has worked for the good of other beings, cultivates compassion when they are overcome by suffering. Then, after he has seen the prosperity of those who had prayed for welfare and the removal of suffering, he should practice sympathetic joy by rejoicing in their prosperity. Lastly he should practise equanimity, because there is no further work to be done (after practising the first three divine abidings) and he should proceed by way of even mindedness and impartiality. === to be continued, connie #80664 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 4:23 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (72) nichiconn dear friends, Part 19 15. Cattaaliisanipaato 1. Isidaasiitheriigaathaava.n.nanaa 438. "Soha.m tato cavitvaa, nirayamhi apaccisa.m cira.m; pakko tato ca u.t.thahitvaa, makka.tiyaa kucchimokkami.m. 436. I fell from there and was cooked in hell. I cooked for a long time, and rising up from there, I entered the womb of a female monkey. Cira.m pakkoti bahuuni vassasatasahassaani nirayagginaa da.d.dho. Tato ca u.t.thahitvaati tato nirayato vu.t.thito cuto. Makka.tiyaa kucchimokkaminti vaanariyaa kucchimhi pa.tisandhi.m ga.nhi.m. 436. I cooked for a long time means: I was burned by the fire of hell for many hundreds of thousands of years. And rising up (u.t.thahitvaa) from there means: arising (vu.t.thito), passing away, from there, from hell. I entered the womb (kucchi.m) of a female monkey (makka.tiyaa) means: I gained rebirth in the womb (kucchimhi) of a female monkey (vaanariyaa). 439. "Sattaahajaataka.m ma.m, mahaakapi yuuthapo nillacchesi; tasseta.m kammaphala.m, yathaapi gantvaana paradaara.m. 437. A great monkey, leader of the herd, castrated me when I was seven days old. This was the fruit of that action for me because of having seduced another's wife. Yuuthapoti yuuthapati. Nillacchesiiti purisabhaavassa lakkha.nabhuutaani biijakaani nillacchesi niihari. Tasseta.m kammaphalanti tassa mayha.m eta.m atiite katassa kammassa phala.m. Yathaapi gantvaana paradaaranti yathaa ta.m paradaara.m atikkamitvaa. 437. Leader of the herd (yuutha-po) means: leader of the herd (yuutha-pati). [He] castrated means: [he] castrated, he took out my seeds, the mark of manhood. This was the fruit of that action (kamma-phala.m) means: this was the fruit of that action (kammassa phala.m) done by me in the past. Because (yathaapi) of having seduced another's wife means: because (yathaa) of having committed adultery with another's wife. 440. "Soha.m tato cavitvaa, kaala.m karitvaa sindhavaara~n~ne; kaa.naaya ca kha~njaaya ca, e.lakiyaa kucchimokkami.m. 438. I fell from there, and dying in the Sindhava forest, entered the womb of a one-eyed, lame she-goat. Tatoti makka.tayonito. Sindhavaara~n~neti sindhavara.t.the ara~n~na.t.thaane. E.lakiyaati ajiyaa. 438. From there means, from that birth as a monkey. In the Sindhava forest means: in the place of the forest in the kingdom of Sindhava. Of a she-goat means: of a nanny goat. 441. "Dvaadasa vassaani aha.m, nillacchito daarake parivahitvaa; kiminaava.t.to akallo, yathaapi gantvaana paradaara.m. 439. Castrated, and carrying children around for twelve years, I was worm eaten, afflicted indeed, unfit, because of having seduced another's wife. Daarake parivahitvaati pi.t.thi.m aaruyha kumaarake vahitvaa. Kiminaava.t.toti abhijaata.t.thaane kimiparigatova hutvaa a.t.to a.t.tito. Akalloti gilaano, ahosiiti vacanaseso. 439. Carrying (parivahitvaa) children around means: carrying (vahi-tvaa) youngsters mounted on my back. Worm eaten, afflicted indeed means: being infected with worms in my place of birth. Afflicted (a.t.to) means: pained (a.t.tito). The words "I was" are to be inferred. ..to be continued, connie #80665 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 5:26 am Subject: Re: Do You Endorse Formal Development Of Right Concentration (Sammaasamaadhi)? abhidhammika Dear Sukin (and other like-minded people) How are you? What is going on, Sukin? Are you trying to defend Pannabahulo Bhikkhu? Or are you trying to defend yourself? If you were trying to defend yourself, your teacher and other like- minded people, relax. At this stage, I have no time to mount an analytical onslaught on anyone or any group or any issue even though I have more than enough resources to do so if I wanted to. Furthermore, even if I came to have time, I do not think I would want to waste my time on the issues concerning you and your group. This is the same attitude I adopt toward any non-Buddhist religions and any non-Theravada Buddhist groups. The reason I happened to reply to Bhante Pannabahulo's messages by way of questions and answers was that he seemed to want to communicate with me regardless of differing (or otherwise) ideas about formal practice of Right Concentration. After all, Bhante wrote to me both on-list and off-list. So I wrote replies to his messages. But, if you were trying to defend Bhante Pannabahulo or trying to influence his answers to my questions, this merely indicates your own weakness (and that of your group?) If you were not trying to defend Bhante Pannabahulo or yourself and your group, please kindly let the Bhante respond to me on his own. Please do not interfere. I will spare you and your group! In return, please do not reply to this message. I only want to read Bhante Pannabahulo's answers. Thanking you in advance. Happy New Year! Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinder" wrote: > > Dear Suan (and Ven. Pannabahulo), > > I would like to make some comments. You will see that I take issue > with all that you wrote here. > > Firstly, it appears that you have no hesitation to try and push the > Venerable to make a categorical statement about something when instead you could be discussing Dhamma points leading to it. Secondly, do you not consider the possibility of "good intention" on the part of Ven P. with regard to not "saying" certain things? And have you considered > your own intentions in asking him to make a statement about his position? < snip> > Sorry for the bluntness, but believe me; I do with the hope that it > will be useful in some way. > > Metta, > > Sukin > #80666 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 5:58 am Subject: Preserving the Buddha's Teachings, Ch 8, no 6. nilovg Dear friends, One may wonder why even meritorious kamma-formations and imperturbable kamma-formations are the wrong way. These lead to rebirth in the happy sensuous planes, in the fine material planes, which are the result of rúpa-jhåna, or in the immaterial planes, which are the result of arúpa-jhåna, and therefore, they lead to the continuation of the cycle of birth and death. The Commentary to this Sutta, the "Såratthappakåsiní", states: "The wrong way [1]is the way that does not deliver beings from dukkha." The Commentary explains that in this respect also the attainment of the stages of jhåna (the eight jhåna samåpatti, including rúpa-jhåna and arúpa-jhåna) and the five "supra-natural powers" (abhiññås [2]) are part of the cycle (vatta) and are as such the wrong way of practice. The way of practice by which ignorance and the other defilements are completely eradicated and nibbåna is attained is the right way. Further on, the Commentary explains that in this sutta the practice is considered from the point of view of the result it leads to: the continuation of the cycle (vatta) or the end of the cycle (vivatta). When it leads to the end of defilements, nibbåna, it is the right way practice. The Commentary states that even the offering of one ladle of rice or a handful of leaves can be the right way of practice, leading out of the cycle. When someone performs dåna together with satipatthåna, without the idea of self who is giving, the giving is very pure, it is the right practice. We read in the "Basket of Conduct" (Cariyåpiìaka, Khuddhaka Nikåya, Minor Anthologies III) Division I, the Perfection of Giving, Conduct of Akitti, that the Buddha, during the life he was the ascetic Akitti, gave alms to Sakka, the King of the Devas of Thirtythree who came to him in the disguise of a brahman. Akitti only had leaves without oil or salt, but he gave all he had gathered. Also a second and a third time he gave as before. He went without food but he was delighted. He said: “If for only a month or for two months I were to find a worthy recipient, unmoved, unflinching, I would give the supreme gift. While I was giving him the gift I did not aspire for fame or gain. Aspiring for omniscience I did those deeds (of merit).” By awareness of nåma and rúpa, the idea of self developing kusala can be eliminated. The Buddha praised all kinds of kusala: dåna, síla, samatha and vipassanå. For people who have accumulations for the development of calm, even to the degree of jhåna, but who do not develop insight as well, defilements can be subdued but not eradicated. As we have seen, jhåna leads to rebirth in higher planes and thus sustains existence in the cycle. Those who develop calm to the degree of jhåna as well as insight, can be aware of realities appearing through the six doorways, including the jhåna-citta. Then they follow the right practice leading to the elimination of wrong view, ignorance and all defilements, thus, the practice leading to the end of the cycle. -------- 1. In Påli: patipadå, meaning: way, path, means of reaching a goal, progress. 2. The five supramundane powers, abhiññås, such as magical powers, Divine Ear, are the results of jhåna. There is a sixth supramundane power and that is the extinction of all defilements at the attainment of arahatship. ****** Nina. #80667 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 1:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and Larry) - In a message dated 12/31/2007 1:31:26 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: S: ;-) What else is meditation other than the growth of 'sila, samadhi, and panna' as being discussed in detail, czarefully considered and developed accordingly? ================================== What else it is, is a mental activity consciously and intentionally engaged in that supports the growth of sila, samadhi, and pa~n~na. By analogy, would you ask what else is medication other than growth of health? Would you ask what else is cultivating a field than the growth in aeration and enrichment of the soil? Meditation is a complex activity, intentionally engaged in, and carried out over a great multiplicity of "moments" that serves to *support* the growth of sila, samadhi, and pa~n~na. It is a cultivational process of a specific sort . What is most off base in what you wrote, I would say, is that growth of sila is part of what meditation *is*. Growth of sila is not part of what meditation "is". It is requisite for successful meditation, and it is also a consequence of meditation. The main relation of sila to meditation is that sila is requisite for successful meditation. The main role of sila viv-a-vis meditation is that cultivation of sila conditions the modicum of calm needed for meditation, and, then, in return, meditation helps to further support support sila. With metta, Howard #80668 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 6:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy jonoabb Hi again Howard (and All) I had meant to add a note to thank you for the holiday wishes you sent me in one of your messages to Sarah. Wishing you and all friends here a happy New Year and a year that is prosperous in the Dhamma. Jon Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi Howard > > upasaka@... wrote: >> ============================ >> You have said here that you disagree, and then you confirm >> exactly what I said. Ah, well! >> > > Let me explain further from my perspective. ... #80669 From: "pannabahulo" Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 6:41 am Subject: Thank you Sukinder, Jonothan and Sarah pannabahulo My dear Dhamma friends, Thank you all very much for all the time and consideration you have put into your postings to me. We are coming from such different perspectives that it is still impossible for me to grasp the import of what you are saying. Your replies will take me a while to re-read and study. My feeling is that I will not be able to clarify much until we all meet up in February. Frankly I cannot understand how you can dispense with meditation altogether.We know from the suttas that even the Lord Buddha had set times for his own practice each day. And we also know, from countless Suttas, that he took great care in selecting meditation subjects for his disciples. The whole point with Sayadaw U Tejiniya's approach is precisely that no choice is made about what to observe. Anapana and observing vedana are only used when the balance of the mind is lost.Surely, unless we are arahants, we all lose the balance of our minds from time to time? Sometimes the emotions would overpower us if we didn't have a way of dealing with them. I am a newcomer to Abhidhamma. I am also aware that two of the greatest 20th century Thai teachers had little time for Abhidhamma study i.e. the late Ven Phra Ajan Chah and the Ven Buddhadasa Bhikkhu. I believe I am attempting to walk a middle way between two extremes; on the one hand meditation and on the other no meditation but just the study of abhidhamma.I considered I had found this with Sayadaw U Tejaniya's approach. I really wish I could undrstand your position and hope to get a much better understanding when we meet in February. Sarah - I did look at the website you advised when you recommended that I listen to some of the 'Erik'discussions.But I now live in a temple with no telephone lines; this means I must access the Internet by means of an air-card.Downloading anything is out of the question as the whole thing is so incredibly slow. I look forward to seeing you all in February.I will come to the discussions with a meditator friend who is very intersted in DSG. I hope you all have a very happy and peacefull New Year. With metta and every blessing, Pannabahulo Bhikkhu #80670 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 2:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 12/31/2007 9:35:25 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, jonabbott@... writes: Hi again Howard (and All) I had meant to add a note to thank you for the holiday wishes you sent me in one of your messages to Sarah. Wishing you and all friends here a happy New Year and a year that is prosperous in the Dhamma. Jon ============================== Ah, how nice, Jon! Thank you! :-) With metta, Howard #80671 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 11:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga, was Anatta as a strategy nilovg Hi James, I mentioned your dialogue with Scott because this overlaps what we are discussing. Right concentration and wrong concentration, which accompany kusala citta and akusala citta respectively. The difference HAS to be known. I just wrote to Larry how concentration can be so different depending on the mental concomittants (I mean cetasikas) You quoted in capitals about concentration and this stuck with me, made me consider. It also struck me that in the Visuddhimagga all over we read about citta, cetasika and rupa, not so often about persons. Only as examples or illustrations, or some stories. We are reminded of non-self. We could exchange messages by way of two-liners (Larry's style before) or so, then it is less time-consuming. Op 31-dec-2007, om 5:36 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > When you write, "Also > for the development of samaadhi, understanding is needed: one has to > know when the citta is kusala and when akusala." I don't know what you > mean by "know"- if you mean a theoretical know (mundane right view) or > directly know (supramundane right view): ------- N: No not theoretical. One has to be very practical. What is the citta like now? What is concentration now, right or wrong? -------- > > J: "This right view is twofold: mundane (lokiya) and supramundane > (lokuttara). N:Your quote is right. In order to reach once supramundane it has to be mundane first. Please read: Ch XIV, 7,8. many kinds, not just understanding kamma and vipaaka. For example: It is of three kinds as consisting in what is reasoned, consisting in what is learnt (heard), and consisting in development. Or as skill in improvement, detriment and means. Tiika: Skill in improvement is skill in increase with regard to what is profitable, and skill in detriment is skill in decrease with regard to what is unprofitable. N: Know what is kusala, what is akusala, and know the way to develop kusala, to abandon akusala . This is also for samatha. -------- > > James: If one is still a worldling, with all of the taints, it is not > possible for that person to "directly know" when the citta is kusala > or akusala. That is just not possible. The worldling can only > theoretically know the difference between kusala and akusala states. ------- N: If that were so, the situation would be hopeless, no Path to be developed. But a Buddha arose and taught us the Way. It can be LEARNT to directly know. ---------- > J: Do you mean theoretically knowing or directly knowing? If by > "knowing" you mean satipatthana or vipassana, then that is directly > knowing and is only possible at the supramundane states. -------- N: Vipassana can be developed very, very gradually by us worldlings, thanks to the Buddha's teaching. Take seeing now. Seeing is a dhamma that experiences colour, no people, is that not true? This is the way to learn, verify it in your life. We have to learn. Read the suttas: seeing is not self, visible object is not self, hearing is not self, sound is not self. We have to learn that they are only dhammas. We begin right now. ------- > J: The > worldling can only hope to directly know the three characteristics of > dhammas: anicca, dukkha, and anatta, he/she cannot hope to directly > know if cittas are kusala or akusala (that is too complicated): ---------- N: Yes, it is understanding that can know different characteristics of dhammas, also of dosa, of generosity, of mettaa. I am not thinking yet of supramundane. You quote now all the stages of purity, which include the different stages of insight. > -------- J: By the 8 kinds of knowledge are here meant the following, which are freed from defilements, follow the right process, and are considered as insight, namely: 1. knowledge consisting in contemplation of rise and fall (udayabbayānupassanā-ñāna), 2. in contemplation of dissolution (bhangānupassanā- ñāna), ------ N: and so on, this begins with the first mahaa vipaasana, insight knowledge. But before that there are three stages of tender insight, see Vis, Ch XVIII: defining of mentality-materiality: the difference between nama and rupa. ------ Nina. #80672 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 11:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] thoughts on practice nilovg Op 31-dec-2007, om 2:58 heeft LBIDD@... het volgende geschreven: > I am also interested in the difference between self view and conceit, > particularly the conceit "I am" (asmi maana). I would describe conceit > as pride or self contempt, but I'm not sure what "I am" means. I can > sense pride in the mere idea of "I." Is that it? Is humbleness the > opposite of conceit? I was looking at some Japanese wood block prints > today and a common theme was tiny figures in a very large > landscape. Is > that pointing at humbleness? -------- N: Humbleness may also be conceit, still finding oneself important. It all depends on the citta at that moment. Vis. XIV, 168: Text Vis. :That has the characteristic of haughtiness. ------ N: The Tiika explains the term u.n.nati, loftiness which is used in the Dhammasangani § 1117. It refers to the text: ‘I am better’... and so on. Because of conceit one thinks oneself to be better than someone else, equal to him or less than him. ------- Text Vis.: Its function is arrogance. ------ As to arrogance (sampaggaha), the Tiika explains this as haughtiness, u.n.namo, another term used by the Dhammasangani. It states that also inferiority conceit (omaana), considering oneself less than someone else, should be understood as arrogance. ------- Text Vis.: It is manifested as vaingloriousness. -------- N: Vaingloriousness stands for the Pali: ketukamyataa, desire for a banner. This term is used in the Dhammasangani. Conceit is compared to the flaunting of a flag. -------- Text Vis.:Its proximate cause is greed dissociated from views. N: The Tiika explains that the occurrence of ‘I am’ conceit seems to be similar to wrong view, and that it arises because of affection for oneself. However, conceit and wrong view do not arise together with the same citta and therefore he said: ‘its proximate cause is greed dissociated from views.’ As to the ‘I am’ conceit, one may think oneself better, equal or less than someone else. Or one clings to the importance of oneself without comparing. ---------- Text Vis.:It should be regarded as like madness. ******* Conclusion. The affection for oneself is deeply rooted and there are many occasions for the arising of conceit. As we read, the arising of conceit is compared to the flaunting of a banner. We read in the “Expositor” (II, p. 479): Conceit always arises together with ignorance which hides the true nature of dhammas. It arises countless times but we do not notice it. When there is conceit, there is no wieldiness, not pliancy or adaptibility but instead rigidity of mind. At such a moment one cannot be openminded to the Dhamma, one cannot listen to the Dhamma. Conceit prevents one from being respectful and polite, it can condition harsh, impolite speech. It prevents one from rejoicing in someone else’s kusala or praise. --------- > L: Looking at the definition of self view I see where I made the > mistake of > confusing the belief to be identical, which is a self view, with the > feeling of pride in "I am", which is conceit. Here "I am hungry" is > self > view because there is identity with hunger rather than pride in mere > being. But I don't understand why pride and identity don't go > together. > Might not someone who is suffering from anorexia at some point in her > treatment be proud that she is hungry? ------- N: Cittas change so fast, hard to tell. Wrong view is a wrong interpretation of reality. quite different from conceit, flying a banner, self advertisement. Vis. XIV, 164: N: The Tiika explains that wrong view is an inverted grasp of the nature of dhammas, that it sees dhamma as permanent etc. It sees dhammas as permanent, as happiness and as self. ----------- Text Vis.: Its characteristic is unwise (unjustified) interpreting. -------------- N: The Tiika explains unwise adherence (ayoniso abhiniveso) as the wrong means and the wrong course. Dhammasangani (381) calls ditthi a "wrong road" and the Atthasalini (II, Part IX, Chapter II, 253) explains : ... From being not the right path, it is a "wrong path". For just as one who is gone astray, although he holds that this is the path to such a village, does not arrive at a village, so a man of false opinions, although he holds that this is the path to a happy destiny, cannot get there; hence from being not the right path it is a wrong path... As you know there are personality belief, sakkaaya ditthi, eternity belief and many other kinds. ----- Nina. #80673 From: "colette" Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 8:44 am Subject: Re: Anatta as a strategy ksheri3 Good Morning James, THANK YOU, I can honestly say that my day, the last day of 2007, is going good, for instance I've already taken care of getting my December allotment of food from THE ASSOCIATION HOUSE and now, on my way home with my food stuffs, I run into your post/reply which made me smile immensely, if not laugh here in the library. As Monty Python once said: "LEMON CURRY?" In response to your visualization of Sarah and her "curry chicken". James, you and I may just be having one of those moments when "minds meet" and your take on "chickens" is that of the color yellow which fits quite nicely with Lemons. LOL, the humor in it all. I noticed that Sarah has responded but I didn't want her reply to color my appreciation for your response to me. > > If you don't mind, I'd like to get into this mess. > > > > James, does our sister truely believe that any focused and/or > > directed meditation is WRONG VIEW? > > > > I think there's some misinterpretation going on! > > James: I don't know- could be. Our sister is just too busy surfing to > get back to me! ;-)) > colette: are you jesting at her South Asian location and her weather conditions? Sure would enjoy seeing her "hang ten" but then we'd be getting our Aussie friends jealous thus starting a whole new conceptual-thing on the shallowness of individuality or shallowness of individuals. ;-)) -------------------------------------- > > > > If I may interpet some of what you say that Sarah believes in through > > meditation I think that what she is suggesting is that of a "free- > > form" style where she has spent many hours learning how to achieve a > > samadhi, a calm, a peace, and a state of well abiding so for her, in > > her methodology, she would not rely on the need to focus on a single > > rupa or a single nama. she automatically carries her meditations > > through NO MATTER WHAT THE FOCUS IS and maybe she finds difficulty > > with "going into a session" with a pre-determined concept and > > objective. > > James: That sounds rather like Zen meditation- just sitting. colette: Zen, does it sound that way? I'm not too familiar with Zen and Zen meditations but here in Chicago Zen is almost an Icon to itself BECAUSE OF the amount of publicity given to the Chicago Bulls basketball team during the Michael Jordon days under the management of Phil Jackson who heavily advertised his practice of Zen. I've found, in my research, that Zen is an offshoot of Yogacara and Madhyamaka or Madhyamika, in that it is a Mind-Only school of practice. Lets take your characterization of Zen as being "just sitting". For myself and my understanding of what I do, what I practice, etc, just sitting isn't very productive at all YET I will not be the first to stand up and say that the conceptualization of "just sitting" is NOT A PRODUCTIVE WAY TO MEDITATE. It sounds highly scattered, without focus, and creates too much of a "difusion" of the energies of the Qi or prana. <...> ------------------------------------------ WHICH BRINGS ME TO: "Lemon Curry?" > I think > Sarah does her meditation while surfing and eating curry chicken (you > should see how she concentrates on it! ;-)) > colette: well, being highly imaginative, I can visualize this on my on my own. ;-)) -------------- > > > > James, I think your definitions, your objectives, and your > > methodology sounds good. > > James: Thank you! Currently, I am trying to meditate on Mindfulness > of Death, Mindfulness of Peace, Repulsiveness of Food, and Mindfulness > of the Four Elements. > colette: from an "Alchemist's" point of view AND APPLYING your TABLE OF CONTENTS I think you're creating an inert gas, DEFINATELY NOT A NOBLE GAS, although your interpretations are YOUR OWN AND NOT MINE, so maybe I should just sit back and see what happens. It's like that schtick: "honor among theives" or any jester in court playing games for the amusement of others. ------------------------------- toodles, colette #80674 From: "colette" Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 9:10 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy ksheri3 Good Morning Larry, Only a few minutes in this hour left, so let me say: BRAVO, EXCELLENTLY PLAYED! > In a message dated 12/31/2007 1:31:26 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > > S: ;-) > What else is meditation other than the growth of 'sila, samadhi, and > panna' as being discussed in detail, czarefully considered and developed > accordingly? > ================================== > What else it is, is a mental activity consciously and intentionally > engaged in that supports the growth of sila, samadhi, and pa~n~na. > colette: ENOUGH SAID, right here, above, that's all ya need! That is such a profound statement that I can't see why you'd want to take the chance and ruin it by expanding on the thought. Psssst, I should know, I do it all the time if not every time. However... ----------------------------------- By analogy, would you ask what else is medication other than growth of > health? colette: sounds good! -------------------------------- Would you ask what else is cultivating a field than the growth in > aeration and enrichment of the soil? colette: SCATOLOGY! ------------------ Meditation is a complex activity, > intentionally engaged in, and carried out over a great multiplicity of "moments" that > serves to *support* the growth of sila, samadhi, and pa~n~na. It is a > cultivational process of a specific sort . colette: yes ladies & gentelmen, did you see that over-extension and then his spledid recovery here! I love what you've done with the place. LOL gotta go toodles, colette > What is most off base in what you wrote, I would say, is that growth of > sila is part of what meditation *is*. Growth of sila is not part of what <....> > With metta, > Howard <...> #80675 From: "robmoult" Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 4:12 pm Subject: Re: Do "Dhammas" exist? Yes/No ? robmoult Hi Ken H, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" > wrote: > > > > Hi All, > > > > I just received an off-line reply to this message which > reads, "Well > > then, if dhammas are beyond existence and non-existence, how can > > they be real or unreal?" > > > > My point is that, in my opinion, the issue of real / unreal or > > existence / non-existence is outside of the Buddha's teaching. > > > > > Hi Rob M, > > I also was tempted to write a reply to your message, but I didn't > want to get too personal. You know me, tactful to a fault. :- ) > > Maybe now is as good a time as any to ask a couple of awkward > questions. Firstly, do you agree that the Abhidhamma teaches absolute > reality as opposed to illusory reality? Secondly, if you don't > believe the Abhidhamma is the Buddha's teaching, why have you > accepted the position of Abhidhamma teacher at your local temple? > Were you engaged to do a hatchet job on the Abhidhamma? > > Sorry if that sounds rude, but I have always wondered. > > Ken H > ===== I agree that the Abhidhamma talks about dhammas. The Dhammasangani starts out, "Katame dhamma kusala?" ("What are the dhammas which are wholesome?"). In my opinion, the linking of the term "dhamma" with the concepts of real / unreal or existence / non-existence is a much later addition, not found in the Suttas or the seven books of the Abhidhamma. BTW, in the context of the Abhidhamma, my preferred translation of the term "dhamma" is "phenomenon". The students in my Abhidhamma class are not philosophers, academics or intellectuals. They are not interested in ontological quibblings. They have a basic knowledge of Buddhism and are seeking a deeper understanding of the teachings. The Abhidhamma provides an excellent structure to achieve this. The classes always involve lively discussions. Few of the questions asked in my class are on technical points; most of the questions relate to the application of the teachings. Though I use the Abhidhamma as a structure, I tend to rely on the Suttas for quotations. Ken, for years I have hoped that you and I would come to an agreement that our differences of opinion are not substantial but more cosmetic in nature. At the risk of over-simplifying, I could state our positions as: KenH: "Ontology is central to the teachings" RobM: "Ontology is not central to the teachings" Maslow once said, "If you only have a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail." Ken, is it possible that your ontological focus causes you to under-appreciate some aspects of the teachings? With sincere metta, Rob M :-) #80676 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 5:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] thoughts on practice lbidd2 Hi Nina, Thanks for the detailed explanation of conceit. I don't think it is counted as clinging in dependent arising like self view. Where should we put it? Why is it more difficult to eradicate than self view? Larry #80677 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 5:13 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy lbidd2 Hi Collette, C: "Good Morning Larry," Larry: I think you meant to say "Howard" rather than "Larry". Maybe he can respond to your comments. Happy New Year! Larry #80678 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 5:21 pm Subject: Re: Anatta as a strategy scottduncan2 Dear James, James: "...Nina passes me off to you and Sarah passes you off to me- we are like awkward dancing partners. ;-))" Scott: Fixed up, eh? James: "I consider wrong concentration to be of the same type Buddhaghosa stated: concentration to commit an unwholesome act like killing or stealing. I consider right concentration to be the four jhanas. Take for example, Devadatta....So, I don't think that all sorts of criteria needs to be applied to concentration to make it Right Concentration. It doesn't need to be accompanied by wisdom either to make it Right Concentration. Right Concentration is simply the jhanas." Scott: I think that wrong concentration is any concentration that arises with akusala citta. I think you need to consider that akusala has many gradations; it is not only limited to obvious and gross examples of akusala such as murder or theft. What about citta rooted in greed, for example? Concentration would arise with such a moment of consciousness and would function as concentration. Would this be kusala? Devadatta didn't concentrate on his plan to kill the Buddha while absorbed in Jhaana, that's for sure. The dichotomy between kusala and akusala is one thing. I think that within this dichotomy, on each side, there are levels or gradations. How else would some kamma lead to result at the level of rebirth whereas other kamma would lead to much more 'minor' sorts of fruit? Concentration, it seems to me, is associated with all kammically active states, kusala or akusala of all levels. Jhaana, it seems to me, is also a complex moment of consciousness, and a special case of the absorbing effect of concentration involving the other mental factors which are conascent with concentration and which form the level of jhaana. Then, although I'd like to learn more of this, each moment is condition for the next such that jhaana continues to arise. Me: "How does one know that the 'intent is wholesome'? Simply because one wishes it were so? James: "That has to do with the other factors of the Noble Eightfold Path, not just Right Concentration." Scott: Correct. What do you consider these factors to be and how do you see them as bearing on knowing whether concentration is Right Concentration? I think you've sidestepped this question. James: "If the hindrances are suppressed and the jhana factors arise, then it is jhana." Scott: Pragmatic but I think fair enough. Also, it would have to include the appropriate combination of conascent cetasikas. James: "I NEVER wrote that the aim of my meditation is just relaxation. I simply wrote that I haven't achieved a jhana yet because I don't have the time and energy to devote to practice. However, relaxation as a goal doesn't make the meditation unwholesome. That is going way too far." Scott: My apologies. I disagree that 'relaxation as a goal doesn't make the meditation unwholesome'. It is simply not kusala to want to relax. This is desire. Nothing kusala about it. Remember I understand 'meditation' to refer to bhaavanaa or mental development. Concentration with the aim of relaxation is akusala and is, therefore Wrong Concentration. No one is faulting a guy for wanting to relax. Just don't call it Right Concentration. And another thing, I appreciate the concession that you don't have the time and energy to devote to practise. With other contributors reiterating the sorts of conditions which need to be in place for jhaana to arise, I'd suggest that few to none of us could possibly have the time and energy (not to mention the accumulations) to devote to Jhaana. As this becomes more and more clear, exhortations to 'meditate' simply seem more and more needless and meaningless. I see that I'm being told to 'relax' which I can do a multitude of other ways. Remember, I don't doubt that jhaana is a real state. I am learning that what Meditators on DSG refer to isn't jhaana. Me: "There is no profitable reason, from a Dhamma perspective, for learning to relax by focusing on the breath and sitting in a given posture." James: "Don't be ridiculous. The Buddha taught Mindfulness of Breathing in several suttas. It is a standard." Scott: Did he teach this as a Relaxation Technique? Hardly, James. He was a Buddha, not a self-help guru. Attaining jhaana, and then realising with wisdom the characteristics of the elements which make up the state is what was taught. James: "That is not Wrong Concentration, it just isn't Right Concentration. You are taking the definition of Wrong Concentration way too far- even though you yourself have quoted two different sources defining it." Scott: To the contrary. If it is not kusala, which learning to play the guitar definitely is not, then it is Wrong Concentration. Its mundane concentration and akusala. James: "Again, no that isn't true. Wisdom doesn't need to accompany Right Concentration: it just has to be the jhanas. Don't complicate that which doesn't need complication." Scott: True, pa~n~naa isn't necessary in jhaana is it? No one said that. How does one know that it is jhaana though? One doesn't but sati and pa~n~naa of a certain level of development do. Sincerely, Scott. #80679 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 5:33 pm Subject: Vism.XVII,224 Vism.XVII,225 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga), Ch. XVII 224. Here it may be asked: 'One kind of contact does not derive from all the bases, nor all the kinds of contact from one base. And yet "With the sixfold base as condition, contact" is said in the singular. Why is that?'. 225. Here is the answer: It is true that neither is one derived from all nor all from one. However, one is derived from many. For eye-contact is derived from eye base, from visible-data base, from mind base reckoned as eye-consciousness, and from the mental-datum base consisting of the remaining associated states. And each case should be construed as appropriate in this way. Therefore: Though stated in the singular, He shows therewith in all such cases That this contact, though only one, Is yet derived from several bases. 'Though stated in the singular': the meaning is, by this statement in the singular that 'With the sixfold base as condition, contact', it is pointed out by the Blessed One (Taadin) that contact, which is of one kind, comes into being from many bases. ************************ 224. etthaaha -- na sabbaayatanehi eko phasso sambhoti, naapi ekamhaa aayatanaa sabbe phassaa, aya~nca sa.laayatanapaccayaa phassoti ekova vutto, so kasmaati. 225. tatrida.m vissajjana.m -- saccameta.m, sabbehi eko, ekamhaa vaa sabbe na sambhonti, sambhoti pana anekehi eko. yathaa cakkhusamphasso cakkhaayatanaa ruupaayatanaa cakkhuvi~n~naa.nasa"nkhaataa manaayatanaa avasesasampayuttadhammaayatanaa caati eva.m sabbattha yathaanuruupa.m yojetabba.m. tasmaa eva hi, ekopanekaayatanappabhavo iti diipito. phassoya.m ekavacananiddeseniidha taadinaa.. ekavacananiddesenaati sa.laayatanapaccayaa phassoti iminaa ekavacananiddesena anekehi aayatanehi eko phasso hotiiti taadinaa diipitoti attho. #80680 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 8:33 pm Subject: Re: Do "Dhammas" exist? Yes/No ? kenhowardau Hi Rob M, ------------------ RM: > I agree that the Abhidhamma talks about dhammas. The Dhammasangani starts out, "Katame dhamma kusala?" ("What are the dhammas which are wholesome?"). In my opinion, the linking of the term "dhamma" with the concepts of real / unreal or existence / non-existence is a much later addition, not found in the Suttas or the seven books of the Abhidhamma. BTW, in the context of the Abhidhamma, my preferred translation of the term "dhamma" is "phenomenon". -------------------- Sorry, but this makes no sense to me. The entire Pali Canon is about dhammas. Maybe the suttas call them by another name - nama, rupa, elements, khandhas, ayatanas etc - but they are all talking about dhammas, and *only* dhammas. I hope your students don't think the suttas are about ultimately non- existent things such as people, places and things to do. (!) ---------------- RM: > The students in my Abhidhamma class are not philosophers, academics or intellectuals. They are not interested in ontological quibblings. ---------------- Is it quibbling to ask whether something is real or not? Surely even a child needs to know that. --------------------------- RM: > They have a basic knowledge of Buddhism and are seeking a deeper understanding of the teachings. The Abhidhamma provides an excellent structure to achieve this. The classes always involve lively discussions. Few of the questions asked in my class are on technical points; most of the questions relate to the application of the teachings. Though I use the Abhidhamma as a structure, I tend to rely on the Suttas for quotations. ----------------------------- That sounds like 'Abhidhamma as strategy' and I can't pretend to approve of it. Abhidhama is not a strategy, it is the truth. It is the way things are. ------------------ RM: > Ken, for years I have hoped that you and I would come to an agreement that our differences of opinion are not substantial but more cosmetic in nature. ----------------- I always enjoy your visits to DSG, and I am grateful you haven't given up on me entirely. We can still have useful discussions without agreeing. For example, I am trying to see your point (below) about under-appreciating some aspects of the teachings. I am sure that is true in a very important way, and this is a good opportunity to think about it. ------------------- RM: > At the risk of over-simplifying, I could state our positions as: KenH: "Ontology is central to the teachings" RobM: "Ontology is not central to the teachings" ------------------- The burning question DSG has taught me to ask is, "What are the dhammas that are arising now?" I think that is the only question the Buddha ever answered. So, what are the realties of the present moment? What is the nature of those realities? Aren't these the questions you want answered? ---------------------------- RM: > Maslow once said, "If you only have a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail." Ken, is it possible that your ontological focus causes you to under-appreciate some aspects of the teachings? ----------------------------- Every now-and-then someone at DSG will make the mistake of suggesting that the doctrine of anatta is bing taken too far. This always brings an avalanche of response. Anatta can't be taken too far. It can be taken not far enough - and that is the cause of all our problems - but no harm has ever been done by taking it 'too far.' Ontology is not a word I use very often, but I take it to mean "the nature of reality." Anything that bears the anatta characteristic is a reality. Anything that does not bear the anatta characteristic is a mere concept. Getting back to your point about under-appreciating some aspects of the teachings, I am sure there are many things I could be doing better than I am. I could be more kind, generous and energetic etc. But those deficiencies are not due to my current interest in 'ontology.' They were built up over countless moments, and countless lifetimes, of ignorance - ignorance of the Dhamma (ignorance of the way things ultimately are). It is time I made up for that. :-) Ken H #80681 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Mon Dec 31, 2007 9:29 pm Subject: re: Vism.XVII,224 Vism.XVII,225 nichiconn Path of Purity, p.679 Here the objector might say: "A single contact is not produced from all the senses, nor are all contacts produced from a single sense. But a single one is stated in 'Conditioned by the sixfold sense contact comes to pass.' Why is that so stated?" This is the reply. It is true that a single one is not produced from all nor are all produced from a single one. But one is produced from many: As eye-contact is produced from eye-sense, matter-sense, mind-sense termed eye-consciousness and the rest of the associated states. Therefore: "Such-as-He" {Taadin} shows by number singular That one contact from several senses {read p' anekaa*} springs. "By number singular" means by the singular number in "Conditioned by sixfold sense, contact comes to pass," such-as-He has shown that one contact comes to pass from several senses. #80682 From: "pannabahulo" Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 12:11 am Subject: Reply to your letter on terminology vs practice pannabahulo Dear Sarah, I have now had the opportunity to read and re-read your lengthy reply to my letter. As I have already said, I am very thankful for the time and effort that you put into your replies. However, some points you raise cause me to be concerned as to exactly where you are coming from with some of the views you hold. No, I don't want to know the answer to that but merely draw your attention to the things that you may wish to consider. Firstly, the assertion you make that: "By stressing jhana and meditation and thinking one has to cut oneself off from daily life, I believe people go very wrong, miss the point of the Buddha's teachings and often end up in serious trouble. So I try to help by stressing seeing and visible object now, hearing and sound now, thinking now......all so anatta" Personally, I know nothing about Jhana. However the Lord Buddha did. It is also significant that, at his parinibbana, he ran up and down the jhanas and entered Nibbana from the fourth. (I use `he' here in the conventional sense). Further, have you ever questioned why the Buddha founded the order of monks and nuns? He said that the `Life of the householder is crowded and dusty, but the way of the monk is wide open'. Why would he have said that if he didn't see that cutting oneself off from ordinary daily was extremely beneficial? Further, he gives a list of topics that one who is intent on enlightenment should not waste time discussing; those subjects are mainly the concerns of the house- holders daily life. In addition, the Buddha repeatedly talks about the happiness of the holy life over that of the happiness of the householder; this happiness mainly relates to the attainment of jhanas. Again you write: "You refer to vipassana insight. There can never be any vipassana insight while we have the idea of excluding certain states of mind (i.e lobha, dosa, moha )or have the idea of any selection or predominant dhammas to be known". I think you miss the point here. Clearly, if the mind is filled with defilement then it lacks the purity to see clearly; it's like looking at reality through a fog or a distorted lens. The use of jhana in vipassana is precisely to cure that problem. The Buddha even says that one must exert physical force, if necessary, to overcome these unwholesome states of mind: He even talks about forcibly pressing the tongue against the roof of the mouth when strong defilements arise. Immediately before his enlightenment he also had to deal with defilements as characterised by eg. the attempted seduction by the daughters of Mara (Raga/lobha) and the hurling of fire at him (dosa /aversion). And the main point given for practicing the Bhrama Viharas is to overcome the defilements for which they are an antidote. Again, using my quote from Sayadaw U Tejinda's interview you argue: S: Comment 3 "I don't believe the Buddha ever taught that there can only be practice if 'the mind and body is completely relaxed'. In the Satipatthana Sutta it's made clear than there can be/should be awareness at any time of any state at all". Yes of course; and the Venerable Sayadaw would completely agree. But the whole point is being relaxed so as not to force, or try to create anything; it is to avoid lobha driven practice. The interview is a very short snapshot of his teaching and does not do justice to his insight or his gift as a teacher. I merely threw in the magazine article as a taster; to give DSG members a better understanding of what I had been doing in Myanamar. The other thing you must bear in mind is that he is teaching vast numbers of people who have practiced meditation systems for may years: i.e. Mahasi Sayadaw and Goenka Ji. In those kind of retreats meditators are bound by very strict timetables and course regulations; tremendous effort is required to keep pace with those requirements. Again you go on to say: "This is where we already differ in our understanding of satipatthana. If there is an 'emphasis' on any dhamma(s) with an idea of observation or of going somewhere to practice meditation, for me, this already has taken the practice, the understanding, away from the present moment, the present dhamma appearing". Firstly, there is no `idea' of observation one simply observes. If there is an idea of observation then one simply observes that. Secondly, retreat practice provides a supportive atmosphere - with teacher guidance - for learning to penetrate reality in more subtle ways. A retreat is a place of for learning and training. The supportive conditions are such that we have the time, space and freedom to just be aware of the mind/body processes. In the interview, Sayadaw U Tejiniya makes a similar point when he says: " People have the wrong perspective with regard to objective. The objective of a retreat should be to learn how to use the mind in a way that we can continue to use it back at home and at the workplace. Retreat is like going to school. Can you be in school all your life?" From my letter - when I speak about Sayadaw U Tejiniya - you quote me as saying: "He instructs meditators not to label –that obscures detail and tires the meditator. He tells yogis to switch to anapana-sati or contemplation of vedana when strong mind states and emotions disturb the mind. When the mind is calm he tells us to return to observing the mind." And then you go on to say: "As before. Why? To me, it suggests a lack of understanding of conditioned realities. The most important thing is to understand them as anatta, impossible to be controlled or selected". Sayadaw U Tejiniya is one of the wisest and intelligent teachers I have ever met. He is also one of the most spiritually developed. His emphasis on Anatta is the foundation of the whole practice. And it was because of that that I was able to face up to, and deal with, the terrible depression I previously suffered from. You also state: "The firm understanding of anatta and elements only develops from condidering (Sic. I assume you meant `considering') the subtle teachings deeper and deeper". No Sarah. Not just by consideration (Cinta maya panna) but by direct observation and experience (Bhavana maya panna). And here lies the crucial difference between our points of view. Jonathan is absolutely spot on when he says: "As I said earlier, I think we are all agreed that the only useful purpose of study is to help understand about the development of insight. As you say, the real question is how the teachings are to be applied. This could be a useful topic for further discussion". There is no one way that is the correct way of practice; if there were the Buddha would have taught one thing and one thing only. He said that we must work out our own salvation for ourselves. He gave us so many guidelines to work with. We learn from the Suttas how different things worked for different people. And Sayadaw U Tejiniya was always stressing to me the need for using my own intelligence to deal with difficult mind states. In the much mentioned interview the Sayadaw is asked about this very point. His answer follows: "………….different things work for different people. What would indicate we're practicing in the right way? When there is awareness, mindfulness, concentration, and wisdom; when we feel light, alert, and awake. Over time, you find you're discovering that awareness becomes more firmly established and that the mind becomes steadier. You understand things you didn't before. If, however, you're getting tired, agitated, or depressed, you are practicing the wrong way. You always need to check the quality of mind; only if the quality is good are you practicing in the right way. This is how the quality of practice should be measured; not by posture or by the number of hours of sitting, walking, or standing meditation you do". My point to you was that the Group discussions on CD and the ones I attended in Bagkok were not group discussions. You have explained that the CDs were edited and doctored so it is difficult to know what happened in India. My own feelings are that group discussions should be for the benefit of all group members. You say to me (and I underline the relevant statements): I don't think it's in the least useful to give an analysis or long story like this about why one has asked particular questions or kept silent, but it's clearly bothered you. Again, I think the emphasis should be on understanding present dhammas now. What's appearing now? Seeing? Visible object? Thinking? Confusion? Conceit? Any dhamma can be known instead of being too concerned about why others ask particular questions And, in a more direct statement, to me, using Ajan Sujin's words you say: "I like her reminder that we should all 'mind our own cittas', rather than being concerned with the others'!" My reply to these remarks is that a group discussin should be just that. But, if you arrive with a pre-set agenda which you are detemined to get through at whatever cost, that requires a different forum. Maybe you could arrange for a private question and answer session with Ajan Sujin. What I do know is that last time you were in Bangkok other people did raise questions about actually using the Abhidhamma; but when they paused to consider Ajan's reply or to reflect on what had been said, you were straight in there asking for yet another terminological clarification and the thread of what others were saying was lost. It seems that you are incredibly attached to one viewpoint and you believe your perspective is the only correct one. That attachment is itself a sign of atta. Over the last year I have learnt a lot and my viewpoint has changed a great deal; it is still changing. This is Dhamma working. I am only concerned that making the trip to Bangkok will be worthwhile and allow me, and other members of the group, to have the wonderful opportunity to learn what we may need to know from Ajan and each other. I would like to hear what other member's experiences are and to share different viewpoints together. I hope you will consider this request Sarah, please remember that attachment to views is also a source of suffering. May you come out of your suffering too. With my very best wishes and blessings, Pannabahulo Bhikkhu. #80683 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 12:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Reply to your letter on terminology vs practice sarahprocter... Dear Ven Pannabahulo, Thank you for your further comments. One clarification only for now: --- pannabahulo wrote: > You also state: > > "The firm understanding of anatta and elements only develops from > condidering (Sic. I assume you meant `considering') the subtle > teachings deeper and deeper". > > No Sarah. Not just by consideration (Cinta maya panna) but by direct > observation and experience (Bhavana maya panna). And here lies the > crucial difference between our points of view. .... S: Yes, considering. Without careful listening and a lot of wise consideration, there will never be bhavana maya panna. The conditions for it are indeed the suta maya panna and cinta maya panna. You'll see that other friends here have a 'take' closer to your own. In particular, I'm not sure if you saw Howard's kind reply to you? http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/80522 Thank you again for all your kind wishes and comments. Metta, Sarah ======= #80684 From: "Sukinder" Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 1:54 am Subject: Re: Do You Endorse Formal Development Of Right Concentration (Sammaasamaadhi)? sukinderpal Dear Suan and Ven. Pannabahulo, ================ > Are you trying to defend Pannabahulo Bhikkhu? Or are you trying to > defend yourself? Not so much defending but yes, I did have the perception that Ven. Pannabahulo was being pushed into saying something which perhaps he did not want to. So it was more like trying to save him from that. ================ > If you were trying to defend yourself, your teacher and other like- > minded people, relax. I've always felt disinclined to identify with any group, but that's mostly due to mana. After meeting A. Sujin and DSG, I've grown to do so even less, only now for more good reasons. I think that the influence of Dhamma in leading one to better understand that there is ever only this present moment, encourages independence not only from identification with groups and other illusions, but more importantly from `self'. So your characterization is off the mark, no `my' teacher or `my' group of likeminded people to defend. No basis for insecurity when it comes to such a thing. ================ > At this stage, I have no time to mount an analytical onslaught on > anyone or any group or any issue even though I have more than enough > resources to do so if I wanted to. > > Furthermore, even if I came to have time, I do not think I would > want to waste my time on the issues concerning you and your group. > This is the same attitude I adopt toward any non-Buddhist religions > and any non-Theravada Buddhist groups. Resources? Don't you think that in all these years that some members of that so called `group' have studied Buddhism, they have come across all possible `opposing' views? Do you expect to be saying anything that has not already been written about by famous Buddhist teachers and scholars worldwide? My own knowledge and background information with regard to Buddhism is very low; however my confidence is based on the fact of there being just this present moment as reference point. I have been lead to believe that any correct attitude towards the Dhamma is reflected in an interest in what the present moment says in relation to what is taught in the Texts. And I think that insofar as people continue to talk about things other than the present moment, it indicates their lack of understanding and saddha. This includes those who philosophize, proliferate ideas and are idealistic about such concepts as `meditation'. So Suan, even though I won't be able to counter anything you say with quotes from the Texts, I doubt you will be able to budge me even little; therefore you might just as well not bother. On the other hand if you approach this with an intention to `discuss', I'll be happy to engage in it. =============== > The reason I happened to reply to Bhante Pannabahulo's messages by > way of questions and answers was that he seemed to want to > communicate with me regardless of differing (or otherwise) ideas > about formal practice of Right Concentration. > > After all, Bhante wrote to me both on-list and off-list. So I wrote > replies to his messages. Yes, and you both may have agreed on terms for discussions which you happen not to see any need to express in that post of yours. Fair enough. But I think you will agree that having expressed what you did there and this being an open forum; you should be ready and willing to receive comments from people other than those to whom you have addressed. ================ > But, if you were trying to defend Bhante Pannabahulo or trying to > influence his answers to my questions, this merely indicates your > own weakness (and that of your group?) I have many, many weakness and they manifest all day. But to take my actions as measure for other people, this you must accept as your own weakness, don't you think? ================ > If you were not trying to defend Bhante Pannabahulo or yourself and > your group, please kindly let the Bhante respond to me on his own. > Please do not interfere. Interfere!!? That's quite a harsh judgment isn't it and quite inappropriate? But sure, unless I receive permission from you, this is likely the last post that I address you. ================ > I will spare you and your group! Yes, if you want to say something, better in the spirit of `discussion' than to `attack'. ================ > In return, please do not reply to this message. I hope you will not mind that I have. ================ > I only want to read Bhante Pannabahulo's answers. If this is your general attitude, then I think you should indicate this at the address each time that you post something. Or else why not just do it off-list!? ================ > Thanking you in advance. I hope you are not too disappointed. :-) ================ > Happy New Year! And the same to you. :-) Metta, Sukin #80685 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 2:38 am Subject: Preserving the Buddha's Teachings, Ch 8, no 7. nilovg Dear friends, We read in the Scriptures that the Buddha spoke about exerting right effort for kusala, and people may misunderstand such passages. They believe that they should try to have kusala and make an effort for satipatthåna. However, effort, viriya, is a cetasika arising with many cittas, with akusala cittas as well as with kusala cittas. When we perform kusala, kusala viriya accompanies the kusala citta already because of conditions. We discussed the four right efforts, sammå- padhånas: the effort of avoiding akusala not yet arisen, of overcoming akusala already arisen, of developing kusala not yet arisen and of maintaining kusala already arisen. They are part of the factors pertaining to enlightenment, bodhipakkhiya dhammas. Acharn Sujin explained that when there is a moment of satipatthåna the four right efforts perform their functions. When they accompany the citta that is "mundane", lokiya, not yet lokuttara, they have not yet reached fulfillment. They develop together with satipatthåna and the other factors pertaining to enlightenment until lokuttara citta arises when enlightenment is attained. Then lokuttara paññå accompaying the magga-citta, path-consciousness, experiences nibbåna and eradicates the latent tendencies of defilements in accordance with the stage of enlightenment that is attained. Also the other factors accompanying paññå experience nibbåna while they perform their functions at that moment. Acharn Sujin explained: "When at the moment of enlightenment supramundane (lokuttara) paññå experiences nibbåna, it supports the other factors pertaining to enlightenment, so that they can perform their functions completely. When there is a moment of understanding that accompanies lokiya citta the latent tendencies, anusayas, are eliminated to a certain extent, but not completely. If there is no gradual decrease of them, how could paññå eradicate them at the moment of enlightenment? Then paññå, that was developed through satipatthåna and reached the stages of insight knowledge, vipassanå ñåna, can completely eradicate latent tendencies." During the two weeks of our pilgrimage we heard day after day Acharn Sujin's most valuable explanations about the development of satipatthåna. Also during our long bus trips we could listen to tapes on Dhamma and in between we had many opportunities for dhamma discussions with our friends. Acharn Sujin often reminded us of the importance of the three "rounds" or intertwining phases: understanding of the truth, sacca ñåna, knowledge of the task to be performed, kicca ñåna, which is the practice, and knowledge of the task that has been done, kata ñåna. When we carefully consider these three phases we can see the necessity of intellectual understanding as a firm foundation of understanding of the level of the practice, patipatti, that is, awareness of the present moment. ****** Nina. #80686 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 3:23 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga, was Anatta as a strategy buddhatrue Hi Nina, Okay, I will respond to your post with a very brief message, like Larry does (but not that brief ;-)), in order to save you time. > -------- > > > > James: If one is still a worldling, with all of the taints, it is not > > possible for that person to "directly know" when the citta is kusala > > or akusala. That is just not possible. The worldling can only > > theoretically know the difference between kusala and akusala states. > ------- > N: If that were so, the situation would be hopeless, no Path to be > developed. But a Buddha arose and taught us the Way. It can be LEARNT > to directly know. Again, Nina, you seem to be confusing mundane right view and supramundane right view. Take this teaching of the Buddha: "And what is right view? Right view, I tell you, is of two sorts: There is right view with fermentations [asava], siding with merit, resulting in the acquisitions [of becoming]; and there is noble right view, without fermentations, transcendent, a factor of the path. "And what is the right view that has fermentations, sides with merit, & results in acquisitions? 'There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the next world. There is mother & father. There are spontaneously reborn beings; there are priests & contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is the right view that has fermentations, sides with merit, & results in acquisitions. "And what is the right view that is without fermentations, transcendent, a factor of the path? The discernment, the faculty of discernment, the strength of discernment, analysis of qualities as a factor for Awakening, the path factor of right view in one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is free from fermentations, who is fully possessed of the noble path. This is the right view that is without fermentations, transcendent, a factor of the path. "One tries to abandon wrong view & to enter into right view: This is one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon wrong view & to enter & remain in right view: This is one's right mindfulness. Thus these three qualities ¡X right view, right effort, & right mindfulness ¡X run & circle around right view. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.117.than.html When one is still a worldling with defilements, it isn't possible for that person to "know" wholesome cittas from unwholesome cittas automatically- in the manner you describe it. However, the goal is for that to happen. You seem to be saying that right view is only right view when it is supramundane right view. Hope this post wasn't too long. Metta, James #80687 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 4:03 am Subject: Re: Anatta as a strategy buddhatrue Hi Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Scott: I think that wrong concentration is any concentration that > arises with akusala citta. I think you need to consider that akusala > has many gradations; it is not only limited to obvious and gross > examples of akusala such as murder or theft. I'm getting a little tired of repeating myself so I will make this short. Wrong concentration is the concentration required to do an unwholesome deed: like kill someone, still something, lie, etc. The concentration required to learn to play guitar, to read a book, learn a foreign language, etc. is not wrong concentration, it is just mundane concentration. Unless you can quote a text to me which demonstrates otherwise, I don't want to keep discussing this. Metta, James #80688 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 4:10 am Subject: The Omniscient Computer-Mind! bhikkhu0 Friends: The Non-Local Stilled Meditating Mind is Omniscient: The Meditating Mind is like a turned on computer where the keyboard is untouched & there is no reading of inputs neither from CD, Floppy drive, network, or any other source. No background tasks are running. Such computer update its state with according to the speed of its processor e.g. ~ 1 GHz. So it is very ready! even though no job is active. Same with the meditating mind it is ultra aware though ideally empty of objects & processes. Equanimity may be likened to a computer, where whatever button is pressed on the keyboard, whatever CD or floppy is inserted in their drives, whatever information is downloaded from the net, local or global there will be absolute no reaction on the screen! It is though not a ‘frozen’ but open state! Still the stream of discrete subconscious states (Bhavanga=mind moments) are running on, yet void of any object. This very basic stream of underlying naked consciousness may be likened to the electrical current in the computer. The current is 'inside' the computer and makes it work, but is not a product of the computer. Consciousness is 'inside' the brain and makes it work, but is not a product of the brain as assumed !!!! Electricity is 'global' as it is the same current that are all-over the same town. This current is shifting phase continuously (50 Hz). Consciousness is also 'global' as it can be trained to perceive all events in a universe whether present, past or future. That phenomenon is called 'Omniscience'. However the mind is much faster than any computer as it change & update states 17 times more quickly than any state of matter a computer possibly ever can be made of. Basically this may very well be the bottom cause, why mind stands over & dominates matter & not the other way around as assumed in our present times of naive materialistic beliefs. The intentionally choosing & determining mind directly creates, produces and manifests the world that will appear among many closely related potential or probable paired mental & material states… So far does also contemporary orthodox quantum-mechanics agree… Mind creates materiality by intending! The Blessed Buddha once said: ORIGIN Intention always comes first Intention is of all states the primer By intention are all things initiated By thought of mind are all phenomena formed Dhammapada 1 http://What-Buddha-Said.net/Canon/Sutta/KN/Dhammapada.htm For contemporary orthodox quantum-mechanics and mind: Mindful Universe: Quantum Mechanics and the Participating Observer by Henry P. Stapp http://www.amazon.com/Mindful-Universe-Mechanics-Participating-Collection/dp/354\ 0724133/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8 &s=books&qid=1199188748&sr=8-1 More on Imperturbable Equanimity (UpekkhÄ?): http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Equanimity_Upekkha.htm May U have a Happy New Year with much mental Progress! -ooOoo- Sincerely yours, : - ] Friendship is the Greatest * Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka :-) .... #80689 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 5:19 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (72) nichiconn dear friends, Part 20 15. Cattaaliisanipaato 1. Isidaasiitheriigaathaava.n.nanaa 442. "Soha.m tato cavitvaa, govaa.nijakassa gaaviyaa jaato; vaccho laakhaatambo, nillacchito dvaadase maase. 443. "Vo.dhuuna na"ngalamaha.m, saka.ta~nca dhaarayaami; andhova.t.to akallo, yathaapi gantvaana paradaara.m. 440-441. I fell from there and was born to a cow belonging to a cattle dealer, a lac-red calf. I was castrated. For twelve months I pulled a plough and a cart, blind indeed, afflicted, unfit, because of having seduced another's wife. Govaa.nijakassaati gaaviyo vikki.nitvaa jiivakassa. Laakhaatamboti laakhaarasarattehi viya tambehi lomehi samannaagato. 440. A cattle dealer means: one who lives by selling cows. Lac red (laakhaa-tambo) means: having red (tambehi) hair like the red of the extract of lac (laakhaa-rasa-rattehi). Vo.dhuunaati vahitvaa. Na"ngalanti siira.m, saka.ta~nca dhaarayaamiiti attho Andhova.t.toti kaa.nova hutvaa a.t.to pii.lito. 441. I pulled (vo.dhuuna) means: having pulled (vahitvaa). A plough (na"ngala.m) means: a plough (siira.m). And I pulled a cart. That is the meaning. Blind (andho) indeed (v'), afflicted mens: becoming blind [in one eye] (kaa.no) indeed (va). Afflicted means: oppressed. 444. "Soha.m tato cavitvaa, viithiyaa daasiyaa ghare jaato; neva mahilaa na puriso, yathaapi gantvaana paradaara.m. 442. I fell from there and was born of a household slave in the street, as neither a woman nor a man, because of having seduced another's wife. Viithiyaati nagaraviithiya.m. Daasiyaa ghare jaatoti gharadaasiyaa kucchimhi jaato. "Va.n.nadaasiyaa"tipi vadanti. Neva mahilaa na purisoti itthiipi purisopi na homi, jaatinapu.msakoti attho. 442. In the street (viithiyaa) means: in the street of a city. Born of a household slave (daasiyaa ghare) means: born in the womb of a slave in a household (ghara-daasiyaa). They also say, "of a prostitute" (va.n.na-dssaiyaa ["a slave of beauty"]).* As neither a woman (mahilaa) nor a man means: I was not a woman (itthii) or a man. I was born a hermaphrodite. That is the meaning. *Ce reads: va.n.na-jaatiyaa ("born in a [low] caste"). 445. "Ti.msativassamhi mato, saaka.tikakulamhi daarikaa jaataa; kapa.namhi appabhoge, dhanikapurisapaatabahulamhi. 443. In my thirtieth year, I died. I was born as a little girl in a cart driver's family [that was] poor, with little wealth, much oppressed by creditors. Ti.msativassamhi matoti napu.msako hutvaa ti.msavassakaale mato. Saaka.tikakulamhiiti suutakakule. Dhanikapurisapaatabahulamhiiti i.naayikaana.m purisaana.m adhipatanabahule bahuuhi i.naayikehi abhibhavitabbe. 443. In my thirtieth year (ti.msati-vassamhi), I died means: having become a hermaphrodite, I died when I was thirty years old (ti.msa-vassa-kaale). In a cart driver's family (saatka.tika-kulamhi) means: in a charioteer's family (suutaka-kule). Much oppressed by creditors (dhanika-purisa-paata-bahulamhi) means: receiving many attacks (adhipatana-bahule) from men (purisaana.m) who are creditors, overcome by many (bahuuhi) creditors. --to be continued, connie #80690 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 5:19 am Subject: Perfections Corner (70) nichiconn Dear All, http://www.zolag.co.uk/ - The Perfections Leading to Enlightenment by Sujin Boriharnwanaket; translated by Nina van Gorkom. Chapter 9: The Perfection of Loving-kindness (continued) We should not think that we have developed mettaa already sufficiently when we have slightly less anger or when we have mettaa for just a few people. This is not enough. When we meet other people, we should remember that we should extend to them, as the occasion demands, mettaa, compassion, sympathetic joy or equanimity, and that there should be no limits to their extension. We should not restrict the extension of the brahmavihaaras to only particular persons. We can verify for ourselves whether we are ready further to develop the brahmavihaaras and to extend them to others all the time. This is the way to live like the Brahmaas. The "Atthasaalinii" (Book I, Part V, Ch XIII, Divine States, 196) uses a simile for the four Brahmavihaaras. Mettaa is like a small child, compassion is like a child who is sick, sympathetic joy is like a child who is becoming an adolescent and equanimity is like a child who manages his own affairs. As regards loving-kindness which is like a baby, everybody wishes for his wellbeing and prosperity in growing up, but we should have loving-kindness not only for small children. Everybody is like a baby one should assist, and in this way we can feel true loving-kindness for all people. However, this is only a simile helping us to understand the characteristic of loving-kindness. Mettaa is like the attitude of a mother towards her child who is still a baby and needs her loving care to grow up. Likewise, we should as a loving mother support other people. Compassion is like a sick child. A mother who has a sick child should try to take care of it so that it will be cured, so that it is free from suffering and illness. When we see other people, not only children, we wish that they are free from suffering and that is compassion. We should not limit compassion to particular people, it should be unlimited. == to be continued, connie #80691 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 5:59 am Subject: Typo: Re: Anatta as a strategy buddhatrue Hi Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > short. Wrong concentration is the concentration required to do an > unwholesome deed: like kill someone, still something, lie, etc. That is supposed to be "steal something" not still something. :-) Metta, James #80692 From: "Larry" Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 9:00 am Subject: Re: Anatta as a strategy lbidd2 Hi James and Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Scott, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" > wrote: > > > > Scott: I think that wrong concentration is any concentration that > > arises with akusala citta. I think you need to consider that akusala > > has many gradations; it is not only limited to obvious and gross > > examples of akusala such as murder or theft. > > I'm getting a little tired of repeating myself so I will make this > short. Wrong concentration is the concentration required to do an > unwholesome deed: like kill someone, still something, lie, etc. The > concentration required to learn to play guitar, to read a book, learn a > foreign language, etc. is not wrong concentration, it is just mundane > concentration. Unless you can quote a text to me which demonstrates > otherwise, I don't want to keep discussing this. > > Metta, > James > Larry: I would say what you are calling "mundane concentration" is wrong concentration if by that you mean reading for pleasure or in some way to enhance one's ego. One could also read with great mindfulness, noticing everything, but with self view, thinking " I am reading this book, I am being mindful, what a wonderful, intelligent person I am." That would also be wrong concentration. Or, one could read and learn something about life that would diminish clinging, or one could play the guitar, content in the mere mindfulness of it. That would be right concentration. Larry #80693 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 9:05 am Subject: Re: Anatta as a strategy scottduncan2 Dear James, J: "...Wrong concentration is the concentration required to do an unwholesome deed: like kill someone, steal something, lie, etc. The concentration required to learn to play guitar, to read a book, learn a foreign language, etc. is not wrong concentration, it is just mundane concentration..." Scott: I think this is yet another dichotomy which can be applied: mundane versus supramundane. I'm not sure we're at the point of bringing this in - its a bit beyond me yet. Lokiya samaadhi would also include jhaana, as far as I know; that is, jhaana, because it is not Path consciousness, is mundane. I think mundane/supramundane is orthogonal to wholesome/unwholesome. J: "...Unless you can quote a text to me which demonstrates otherwise, I don't want to keep discussing this." Scott: I'll enjoy searching for an answer here; I'll be back when I'm able. (Happy New Year, by the way). Sincerely, Scott. #80694 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 11:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] thoughts on practice nilovg Hi Larry, Op 1-jan-2008, om 2:08 heeft LBIDD@... het volgende geschreven: > Thanks for the detailed explanation of conceit. I don't think it is > counted as clinging in dependent arising like self view. Where > should we > put it? ------- N: Under clinging, since it arises with lobha-muulacitta. Even the anaagami who has no more clinging to sense objects still has subtle conceit, the latent tendency is not eradicated until arahatship. It still keeps one in the cycle. --------- > L:Why is it more difficult to eradicate than self view? -------- N: It can become very subtle but it is persistent. See Khemakasutta: even after the eradication of wrong view of self some 'smell' of self love is left, because of accumulations. But it is not wrong view. A simile is used of a cloth that is washed, and still has a smell. It takes time before that is gone completely. Nina. #80695 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 11:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga, was Anatta as a strategy nilovg Hi James, Op 1-jan-2008, om 12:23 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > When one is still a worldling with defilements, it isn't possible > for that person to "know" wholesome cittas from unwholesome cittas > automatically- in the manner you describe it. However, the goal is > for that to happen. You seem to be saying that right view is only > right view when it is supramundane right view. -------- N: It seems that you yourself are saying this, right? I take supramundane, lokuttara citta this: it has nibbaana as object, not anything else, no dhammas as they occur now in daily life. At enlightenment lokuttara cittas arise. They are accompanied by right view (pa~n~naa) that is supramundane. All the Path factors arise and these are lokuttara. As to mundane right view (pa~n~naa): mundane kusala citta accompanied by mundane right view does not have nibbaana as object, but the naama or ruupa in our daily life, appearing now. it is not merely understanding kamma and result, but more is included: the characteristics of dhammas, so that gradually their true nature can be understood. So long as we are in the cycle we have latent akusala tendencies, no matter we perform kusala or commit akusala. Inspite of this, the worldling can develop pa~n~naa, right view. It is still mundane, so long as we are on the way leading to the goal. It does not develop automatically, there has to be listening, study, considering. In the sutta you refer to we read; <"Of those, right view is the forerunner. And how is right view the forerunner? One discerns wrong action as wrong action, and right action as right action. And what is wrong action? Killing, taking what is not given, illicit sex. This is wrong action. "And what is right action? Right action, I tell you, is of two sorts: There is right action with fermentations, siding with merit, resulting in the acquisitions [of becoming]; and there is noble right action, without fermentations, transcendent, a factor of the path. > Discerning right action from wrong action, thus also discerning kusala citta from akusala citta. Right or wrong? Nina. #80696 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 4:54 pm Subject: Re: Anatta as a strategy scottduncan2 Dear Larry, Thanks for the following: Larry: "I would say what you are calling 'mundane concentration' is wrong concentration if by that you mean reading for pleasure or in some way to enhance one's ego..." Scott: I think this is what I was getting at. Except that I also was thinking that jhaana is mundane in that it is not supramundane. But yeah, if citass' ekaggata arises with akusala citta - i.e 'reading for pleasure' - then it is wrong concentration. If there is concentration coordinating a series of moments of consciousness rooted in desire this is wrong concentration. L: "...One could also read with great mindfulness, noticing everything, but with self view, thinking 'I am reading this book, I am being mindful, what a wonderful, intelligent person I am.' That would also be wrong concentration. Or, one could read and learn something about life that would diminish clinging, or one could play the guitar, content in the mere mindfulness of it. That would be right concentration." Scott: I wonder if here you might be referring to vipassana? In this case, concentration would be condition for the arising of sati and pa~n~naa. I think this is due to the fact the the dhamma which is 'concentration' is a Universal and arises with each moment of consciousness. Sincerely, Scott. #80697 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 5:09 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy lbidd2 Hi Scott, Scott: "I wonder if here you might be referring to vipassana? In this case, concentration would be condition for the arising of sati and pa~n~naa. I think this is due to the fact the the dhamma which is 'concentration' is a Universal and arises with each moment of consciousness." Larry: Yes, I was refering to vipassana in daily life. Another example of right concentration that is not vipassana would be reading in order to help someone or playing the guitar to cheer up someone. Larry #80698 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 5:23 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] thoughts on practice lbidd2 Hi Nina, Thanks for your reply on conceit. Actually, I have noticed that whenever I send an email or even think about sending an email, conceit arises. An email is definitely waving the banner for me. This is a good thing to taste, but tasting isn't enough to penetrate it. Here's a question on self view. Self view is identity and perception is identity. It seems that the main difference is that perception can arise with insight rather than clinging. But perception perceives sameness. If there were no perception of sameness we wouldn't recognize anything. But sameness assumes a degree of permanence even when there is insight. How does panna penetrate this without destroying the function of perception? Larry #80699 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 5:49 pm Subject: Re: Anatta as a strategy buddhatrue Hi Larry, Thanks for the post. I rarely get to chat with you. :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" wrote: > Larry: I would say what you are calling "mundane concentration" is wrong concentration if > by that you mean reading for pleasure or in some way to enhance one's ego. One could > also read with great mindfulness, noticing everything, but with self view, thinking " I am > reading this book, I am being mindful, what a wonderful, intelligent person I am." That > would also be wrong concentration. Or, one could read and learn something about life that > would diminish clinging, or one could play the guitar, content in the mere mindfulness of > it. That would be right concentration. James: Okay, you are being very loose in your definitions of Wrong Concentration and Right Concentration. I am being very traditional in my definitions, basing them entirely on the texts. According to the texts, Right Concentration is the four jhanas (and Noble Right Concentration is the four jhanas combined with the discernement of the Noble Eightfold Path). According to the texts, Wrong Concentration is the concentration needed to perform an unwholesome act: like killing, stealing, lying, sexual misconduct, abusing intoxicants. Wrong Concentration will lead to perdition, to hell, and should never be done. What you are describing is mundane, or everyday, concentration. Mundane concentration can be either skillful or unskillful. Skillful concentration would be memorizing the Buddha's teaching, chanting the Buddha's teaching, the concentration prior to jhana, etc.. Unskillful concentration would be concentration on sense pleasures (watching movies, reading books for pleasure, etc.) and concentration for purely intellectual pursuits. The standards of what is skillful and what is unskillful for householders and monks is very different. Monks follow much more strict rules for what constitutes unskillful concentration. But, Right Concentration and Wrong Concentration are the same for monks and householders. Hopefully this will help to clarify what I am saying. If not, feel free to ask more questions. > > Larry > Metta, James #80700 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 6:40 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga, was Anatta as a strategy buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: . > -------- > N: It seems that you yourself are saying this, right? > I take supramundane, lokuttara citta this: it has nibbaana as object, > not anything else, no dhammas as they occur now in daily life. At > enlightenment lokuttara cittas arise. They are accompanied by right > view (pa~n~naa) that is supramundane. All the Path factors arise and > these are lokuttara. James: Okay, notice here that you define supramundane right view as panna (pa~n~naa). > As to mundane right view (pa~n~naa): mundane kusala citta accompanied > by mundane right view James: Here you define mundane right view as panna (pa~n~naa). does not have nibbaana as object, but the naama > or ruupa in our daily life, appearing now. it is not merely > understanding kamma and result, but more is included: the > characteristics of dhammas, so that gradually their true nature can > be understood. > So long as we are in the cycle we have latent akusala tendencies, no > matter we perform kusala or commit akusala. Inspite of this, the > worldling can develop pa~n~naa, right view. James: Now, here you state that the worldling can develop pa~n~naa, right view. (No one could possibly know which right view you mean because you aren't being specific enough). It is still mundane, so > long as we are on the way leading to the goal. It does not develop > automatically, there has to be listening, study, considering. > In the sutta you refer to we read; <"Of those, right view is the > forerunner. And how is right view the forerunner? One discerns wrong > action as wrong action, and right action as right action. And what is > wrong action? Killing, taking what is not given, illicit sex. This is > wrong action. > "And what is right action? Right action, I tell you, is of two sorts: > There is right action with fermentations, siding with merit, > resulting in the acquisitions [of becoming]; and there is noble right > action, without fermentations, transcendent, a factor of the path. > > Discerning right action from wrong action, thus also discerning > kusala citta from akusala citta. Right or wrong? James: Here you equate right action and wrong action with kusala citta and akusala citta. You are using "citta" in the singular, which means discerning individual mind states. It seems that you are equating the knowing of right and wrong actions to knowing individual mind states as they arise. This is, again, going too far. We can discern right or wrong actions with great difficulty and with a lot of practice. However, when doing so, we are not able to discern individual mind states. That is just too advanced as they occur too rapidly. > Nina. Metta, James #80701 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 7:41 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy scottduncan2 Dear Larry, Thanks for clarifying: Larry: "Yes, I was refering to vipassana in daily life. Another example of right concentration that is not vipassana would be reading in order to help someone or playing the guitar to cheer up someone." Scott: This is helpful, I think. Concentration influences citta through conascent arising which is, at the same time, under the influence of, say, conascent mettaa in directing action. The object of focus is a concept: someone in need of help or cheering up. Since the citta is kusala, it is Right Concentration. Is that the gist? Sincerely, Scott. #80702 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 7:49 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy lbidd2 Hi Scott, Scott: "Since the citta is kusala, it is Right Concentration. Is that the gist?" Larry: Yes, that's what makes sense to me. Otherwise there would be kusala concentration that is not right and not wrong. Seems a bit odd to me. Larry #80703 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 8:42 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy lbidd2 Hi James, James: "What you are describing is mundane, or everyday, concentration. Mundane concentration can be either skillful or unskillful." Larry: Okay, I'll accept that. Skillful rather than right. Here "skillful" means "kusala" and "right" is a technical term referring to a level of heightened "skillful" concentration accompanied by jhana factors. The ancient commentators said that momentary concentration could be included in the "right concentration" category as the equivalent to access concentration so the concentration involved in insight would be classified as "right". One may or may not accept that but "skillful" certainly seems workable on my level. Larry #80704 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 9:00 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Corner (68) sarahprocter... Dear Connie & all, A Wise New Year to you too! Thank you for continuing to share these Paramis. I like the following on metta: --- L G SAGE wrote: > http://www.zolag.co.uk/ - The Perfections > Leading to Enlightenment > by Sujin Boriharnwanaket; translated by Nina van Gorkom. > Chapter 9: The Perfection of Loving-kindness (continued) <...> > We read in the "Basket of Conduct" that the citta of the Great Being, > the Bodhisatta, could without difficulty become established in calm, > because he could quickly extend loving-kindness even towards his > enemies. Someone may at times be irritated about others, he may believe > that particular persons obstruct his own welfare in various ways. > However, if he accumulates kusala and has the determination to eradicate > defilements, his citta will without difficulty become established in > calm. He will quickly be able to extend mettaa even to his enemies. .... S: This development of metta and calm has nothing to do with going to a quiet place or setting up particular conditions first. It has everything to do with understanding the value of metta, the real cause of our irritations and what is worthwile in life. .... > > If we become angry with someone, we should know that anger arises only > for a short moment and then falls away, and that mettaa can arise > instead. When we have accumulated the perfections we can become like the > Bodhisatta who could without difficulty be established in mettaa and > extend it quickly towards his enemies. We should verify for ourselves > whether we are angry with someone else for a long time or not. If we can > have mettaa instead, it shows that we have accumulated the inclination > to eradicate defilements. ... S: Again, as with the development of any of the other paramis or the development of calm, it comes back to this moment. Is there anger or metta now as we converse with each other, as we answer telephone calls or go about our daily life amongst people? If there is not a little more understanding of wholesome cittas, of calm, of metta now, it's useless to think about developing such qualities at another time, in another place. This is also why the development of the paramis has to go along with satipatthana, with a relinquishment of the idea of self as well. Without such a development, there will always be the idea of people, things and situations irritating or angering us, instead of appreciating that this is the blindness of moha. Metta, Sarah ========= #80705 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 9:29 pm Subject: Ignorance......wrong concentration sarahprocter... Dear Friends, More on the blindness of ignorance..... Vism XIV, 163 "Delusion has the characteristic of blindness, or it has the characteristic of unknowing. Its function is non-penetration, or its function is to conceal the individual essence of an object. It is manifested as the absence of right theory, or it is manifested as darkness. Its proximate cause is unwise (unjustified) attention. It should be regarded as the root of all that is unprofitable." Vism XVII, 303 "Ignorance is like a blind man because there is no seeing states according to their specific and general characteristics; formations with ignorance as condition are like the blind man's stumbling....." ..... S: In series of javana cittas in both the sense-door and mind-door processes, if the cittas are not kusala (wholesome/profitable) [or kiriya in the case of the arahant], they are akusala (unwholesome/unprofitable). All akusala cittas are accompanied by ignorance and wrong concentration. .... AN, Bk of 10s, ch XI, Sama.nasa~n~naavaggo (Ideas of a Recluse)*, v (105), Vijjaa Sutta (By Knowledge) (PTS) " 'Monks, when ignorance (avijjaa) leads the way, by the reaching of states unprofitable (akusala), shamelessness (ahiri) and recklessness (anottappa) follow in its train. In one who is swayed by ignorance and is void of sense of wrong view (micchaa di.t.thi) springs up. Wrong view gives rise to wrong thinking, wrong thinking to wrong speech, wrong speech to wrong action, wrong action to wrong living, wrong living to wrong effort, wrong effort to wrong mindfulness, wrong mindfulness to wrong concentration (michaa samaadhi), that to wrong knowledge, and that to wrong release (micha vimutti). But, monks, when knowledge leads the way, by the attainment of profitable (kusala) states the sense of shame (hiri) and self-restraint(ottappa) follow in its train. In one who is swayed by knowledge and has good sense, right view (sammaa di.t.thi) springs up. Right view gives rise to right thinking.....................right concentration (sammaa samaadhi) gives rise to right knowledge, and that to right release (sammaa vimutti).' " Metta, Sarah ========= #80706 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 10:27 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Ignorance......wrong concentration sarahprocter... Dear Friends, --- sarah abbott wrote: > AN, Bk of 10s, ch XI, Sama.nasa~n~naavaggo (Ideas of a Recluse)*, ... S: I had meant to add the footnote given in the PTS translation (by FL Woodward) here: * " 'Recluse' for sama.na is not perfectly fitting for such were not solitaries. 'Austere' is perhaps nearer the meaning. The usual comment is 'samita-paapatta'(calmed as to wickedness)." To add a little more, in the commentary to the Saama~n~naphala Sutta (Fruits of Recluseship), transl. by B. Bodhi, it says: "Fruit of Recluseship" (saama~n~naphala): in the ultimate sense recluseship is the path and the fruit of recluseship is the noble fruit. As it is said: "What, bhikkhus, is recluseship? It is this Noble Eightfold Path: right view.....right concentration. And what are the fruits of recluseship? The fruits of stream-entry, of the once-returner, of the non-returner, and of arahatship" (S.45:35/v.25)." S: This is in contrast to the common view and use of the term sama.na at the time to refer to those leading 'a homeless life on vaguely spiritual grounds', as B.Bodhi puts it. And while I have this sutta and its commentary open, I'd like to repeat the definition of 'the holy life' that is given here: Sutta: "...He teaches the Dhama that is good in the beginning, good in the middle, and good in the end, possessing meaning and phrasing; he reveals the *holy life* that is fully complete and purified." Commentary: " The word "holy life" (brahmacariya) is found (in the texts) with the following meanings: giving, service, the moral discipline of the five precepts, the four immeasurable states, abstinence from sexual intercourse, contentment with one's own marital partner, energy, the factors of the Uposatha observance, the noble path, and the entire dispensation. [The comy here cites passages from the suttas illustrating these different meanings. These are not given in BB's transl.] "Here it is used to mean dispensation. Thus the passage under consideration shuld be understood as follows: "He teaches the Dhamma that is good in the beginning, etc....fully complete and purified. And teaching it thus he reveals the holy life, the entire dispensation comprised in the threefold training (moral discipline, concentration, and wisdom)." ****** S: Back to subject heading and for those considering wrong concentration, you may like to consider the following from the same Saama~n~naphala sutta and its sub-commentary note (also given by B.Bodhi). [I gave this before with more context: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/64562] "Sub Cy: 'Wrong mindfulness becomes established' (micchaasati santi.t.thati): wrong mindfulness is the craving associated with the theory, and it is this which becomes established. For through oral tradition one first apprehends the general meaning of the view 'by doing so there is no evil,' etc. One then ponders that meaning with various reasons until it appears as cogent to the mind as if it possessed concrete form. By becoming accustomed to such a view over a long period of time, one arrives as a reflective acquiescence in it, thinking 'It is true.' When, again and again, one habitually indulges in and cultivates the view that has been accepted as true through reflective acquiescence, wrong thought directs craving to that view, with wrong effort reinforcing the craving; thus one apprehends things as having a nature which they do not really have. Thence it is the craving associated with the theory that is called wrong mindfulness. 'The mind becomes one-pointed': by gaining such particular conditions as applied thought, etc., the mind becomes steadied on its object; it abandons diffuseness and becomes one-pointed, as if absorbed. ***'Wrong concentration' (micchaasamaadhi)*** is spoken of under the heading of 'mind'. For that concentration, gaining the power of the development through special conditions, performs the function of pervertedly concentrating the mind on its object, as in the case of sharp-shooting archers, etc." ... S: 'as in the case of sharp-shooting archers, etc.' I think that 'etc.' includes all our daily activities when there is no dana, sila or bhavana involved. Just terminological or relevant to practice now? I think that the more we appreciate that all these expressions such as 'reclusehip', 'holy life', 'concentration' are all so very relevant to the development of an understanding of dhammas now, the greater confidence we have in the Buddha's teachings. He stressed again and again that the holy life is lived for the full understanding of dukkha. What is dukkha? "The eye, friends, is suffering: it is for the full understanding of that the holy life is lived under the Blessed One. Forms are suffering... Whatever feeling arises with eye-contact as condition... The mind... Whatever feeling that arises with mind-contact as condition...that too is suffering: it is for the full understanding of this that the holy life is lived under the Blessed One." (SN 35:81, 'A Number of Bhikkhus', Bodhi transl.) Metta, Sarah ======= #80707 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 10:36 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy/ Happy New Year to all of us ! sarahprocter... Hi Tep, --- Tep Sastri wrote: > I'd like to join Robert to wish Jon, Sarah, Nina and other DSG members > a very happy and peaceful New Year! > > Thank you for the lively and beneficial dhamma discussions you made in > 2007. > > Looking ahead, may 2008 also be a good year. ... S: Thank you so much for your good wishes. You were one of the 'key players' in helping the lively and beneficial discussions along. Without good friends like yourself questioning what we say and providing excellent textual passages, there's be no discussions! Yes, let's all make 2008 a good year of 'lively and beneficial' discussion too! Thanks again for your good wishes. Metta, Sarah ======= #80708 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 11:30 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 222, 223, and Tiika. sarahprocter... Dear Nina, There is a lot of detail to consider in these extracts. Thank you for all your work and helpful comments. I'd like to add a few of my reflections here: --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 222, 223. > Thus far the inner aayatanas were referred to, namely the five senses > and the mind-base, manaayatana. > In the following sections it is said that some teachers take it that > the sixfold aayatana includes also the external aayatanas. .... S: Interesting. Whenever I've brought up these sections or references to the sixfold ayatana in the Suttas with K.Sujin, she is adamant that the external ayatanas are also included. How can there be innter ayatanas without external ayatanas? Also, with regard to past sections on feelings, for example, referring to vipaka cittas in the text, again she stresses that all feelings are included. Attachment can be attached to any feeling. ... <...> > N: The five aayatanas which are the senses are produced by kamma, and > this is referred to as ‘ what is clung to’, upaadinna. ... S: I think this is the first meaning of 'upadana' which we've discussed at length, referring to rupas (and other dhammas) conditioned by kamma only. ... > The Tiika mentions that according to the words of the first teacher > the internal aayatanas produced by kamma are the condition for such > contact. The text refers to these as ‘ what is included in one's own > continuity’ (sasantatipariyaapanna). Moreover, the ruupas beginning > with visible object which are the external aayatanas and not clung > to, unlike the ruupas which are the senses produced by kamma, are the > objects of contact. ... S: I think this means that the rupas beginning with visible object (external ayatanas) are not clung to in the sense of upadana/upadinna referring to rupas conditioned by kamma. Of course they are clung to (upadana/upadinna) in second wider sense of the term. Any conditioned dhamma (other than the lokuttara dhammas) can be clung to. ... > But, as the Tiika explains, according to the second teacher, also the > outer aayatanas are taken as condition for contact, and this fact > cannot be denied, in whatever way such condition may operate. ... S: Once when I brought it up with KS, she stressed that we shouldn't forget our understanding of conditions. There has to be the 'meeting' of the inner and outer ayatanas for contact to take place. ... <...> > Text Vis.: They take any one part to represent any remaining one of its > kind, <...> > N: As to the expression, any one part to represent any remaining one > of its > kind (ekadesa-saruupekasesanaya), as we have seen in Vis. 203, this > is the method of using an all-embracing term to include its component > parts. ... S: This is interesting and I think what KS was implying. We know it is the same when we read about certain mental states, for example, in suttas. Others are implied. ... <..> > Text Vis.: But there are those who maintain that it is only the > conditionally- arisen [contact]that is contained in a single > continuity, while the conditioning [bases]are contained in separate > [that is, past] continuities as well. They > maintain that all and any such bases are a condition for contact, and > they include also the [six] external ones. So they have it that 'sixfold > base' means the same internal [five] plus the sixth plus the external > ones beginning with visible data. For that sixth base and that [partial] > sixfold base and the sixfold base along with these [external ones] each > representing the rest are styled sixfold base too. > -------- > N: There are teachers who have a different opinion. They take it that > the sixfold base is an all-embracing term including all aayatanas, > the inner aayatanas and the outer aayatanas. ... S: This is as KS explained. ... > Conclusion: <..> The world comes to us through the > senses. We are attached to the image of a whole, a long lasting world > with people. In reality visible object impinges just for a moment on > the eyesense, it is seen and experienced by the other cittas of the > eye-door process and then it falls away. Realities appear through the > six doors very shortly and then fall away, there is nothing left. ... S: A good reminder and conclusion! Metta, Sarah p.s A very Peaceful and Healthy New Year to you and Lodewijk. Please thank him for his lovely card. My mother enjoyed it too. She left a few days ago and Jon's about to leave anytime now for Fiji again! Good to remember that we live alone all the time! ======= #80709 From: "Sukinder" Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 12:35 am Subject: Re: Thank you Sukinder, Jonothan and Sarah sukinderpal Dear Ven. Pannabahulo, > Thank you all very much for all the time and consideration you have put > into your postings to me. > We are coming from such different perspectives that it is still > impossible for me to grasp the import of what you are saying. > Your replies will take me a while to re-read and study. Yes I think so, and better to know this now than continue with what on the surface seems like `agreement'. ================== > My feeling is that I will not be able to clarify much until > we all meet up in February. We could wait till then when you will be able to better express yourself. However I hope you don't mind that I comment some now. I'll be direct, but please don't mind. ================== > Frankly I cannot understand how you can dispense with meditation > altogether.We know from the suttas that even the Lord Buddha had set > times for his own practice each day. Before the Buddha got enlightened, in countless previous lives, he had practiced meditation / Jhana. This therefore became part of his `natural inclination'; comparable to what might be for some to perform `Dana' on a daily basis. The quality of the deed is in accordance to the level of accumulated wisdom and other wholesome dhammas. Obviously he didn't have to do anything to `boost or recharge' anything nor should this be seen as being consequence of his enlightenment. The unique activity, the result of him having become a Buddha, was to "teach Dhamma", and this he made sure of doing as much as possible. Of course even this is conditioned. That the Bodhisatta practiced Jhana but finally realized that this would not lead him to the goal, should tell us that Jhana has no direct relation to the Path which he later came upon. That the Buddha-to-be practiced Anapanasati before being enlightened to the 4NT should tell us that Anapanasati and the N8FP are completely different. The former is the best practice deserving of a Bodhisatta, and also being one in which both Nama and Rupa appear as potential object of insight. After becoming Buddha however, there was a world of a difference in the outlook, re: the panna of samatha / Jhana being `replaced' by the panna of vipassana. (theorizing a bit here :-/ ).And it is exactly because of this difference that the Buddha at first hesitated from teaching! I think it is because people do not appreciate this difference that they have this idea of practicing samatha together with vipassana. In fact as far as I can see, they are ignorant not only about what is the N8FP, but they don't know anything about the development of samatha / Jhana either. And so in such case we have people being completely deluded about Patipatti. ================== > And we also know, from countless Suttas, that he took great care in > selecting meditation subjects for his disciples. For the practice of Samatha / Jhana yes, and Anapanasati for the exceptionally wise can also condition Vipassana. These objects are objects not simply by virtue of being conceivable in the mind regardless, but they have particular meaning to different individuals and this is as it appears to a level of "wisdom". Hence a `blue kasina' is not just a blue circle which anybody can visualize and then reproduce on paper and think that they can then simply concentrate on it and this would be kusala! The important thing is the "kusala citta", that these are developed by virtue of "understanding", including knowing its nature as being different and opposite to akusala. It is a result of the kind of development that at some point, with even greater understanding, one sees the need to concentrate on `one' of the 40 objects of meditation. Obviously there is an element of personal inclination here, however this makes no difference if no wisdom is involved. One must understand well how the particular object would help to encourage kusala while keeping akusala from arising. The Buddha's role in all this is that he knew better that the bhikkhus themselves, being omniscient, which the right object is. He knew also that the Bhikkhus, aside from vipassana, were better off passing their time developing Jhana than otherwise. ================== > The whole point with Sayadaw U Tejiniya's approach is precisely that no > choice is made about what to observe. Anapana and observing vedana are > only used when the balance of the mind is lost. But to "note" at all is to be decided upon, no? And this imo, is where people go wrong. As in the case of samatha / Jhana where the point is missed in thinking that mere concentration of a chosen object *is* kusala or that it might lead to kusala, but in reality it is all about "understanding" kusala from akusala, so is it here that the practice has nothing to do with "noting". Moreover, as in the case of samatha, there is little or no concern about the actual quality of citta at the time, so too here, no consideration is given as to whether or not `understanding' is involved in the process of observing. We react how we react and learn how we learn. Given our accumulations to greed, aversion and ignorance, and the tendency to self view, when suggested by someone or even our own self, to `note', we do so as we always have as with other kinds of suggestions. Unless there is panna, we are lead by tanha and miccha ditthi to observe and end up with wrong knowledge. When the Buddha reminded his disciples to be mindful, it was not to `note' or to observe, but it was done as a possible prompt for "understanding" to arise. This involved a *different* way of looking at the experience, namely with `insight'. But today people, precisely because they lack the kind of wisdom the Buddha's disciples had, think in terms of training in noting / observing. They think that they need to observe better and better, more and more. But this is all due to `thinking' a certain way, one which is typical of an uninstructed worldling who has "conceived" and taken experiences through all six doorways for `self' (and `other'). Nothing remains to be taken as object of study, but having conceived, we go ahead anyway. Which is why the so called meditator not in fact existing, what ever he then observes will ever be only non-existent concepts, never a reality. ===================== > Surely, unless we are > arahants, we all lose the balance of our minds from time to time? > Sometimes the emotions would overpower us if we didn't have a way of > dealing with them. And this should remind us that as putthujanas, our `intentional noting' is likely due to wrong view and the result of this would be furthering the tendency. That we all continually get caught up in unwholesome patterns of behavior should not only remind us about the great accumulations of akusala, but more importantly that Dhammas are Anatta and beyond control. That we are engaged in some practice which seem to reduce these tendencies but then we go on to feel that there is some degree of control, *this* should lead us to question the particular practice rather than to be encouraging it in the name of Dhamma! Psychological techniques to control unwanted behavioral patterns is fine as long as we do not associate this with the Path. And even if the mundane path (i.e. satipatthana) does not arise enough to "solve" our problems, we can at least appreciate that ultimately it is only *this* that can ultimately lead to all our problems being solved. If appreciating this in principle is all that can be had for now, let's be content with that. At least we save ourselves from taking the wrong path for right which otherwise would push us further and further into samsara. If intellectual appreciation of the Teachings is all that can arise now, so be it. After all there are only dhammas and these cannot be controlled by will. Besides even this intellectual understanding is better than anything else coming our way and at this level itself there is so much room for improvement and hence reducing some avoidable stress caused by wrong considerations. With regards to the higher level of wisdom, namely Patipatti, who can make this arise? And it is not that we are `stuck' with whatever understanding we have, knowing where we are itself is a "release"! A release from the tyranny of `self' which seeks other than what "is". ======================= > I am a newcomer to Abhidhamma. I am also aware that two of the greatest > 20th century Thai teachers had little time for Abhidhamma study i.e. > the late Ven Phra Ajan Chah and the Ven Buddhadasa Bhikkhu. > I believe I am attempting to walk a middle way between two extremes; on > the one hand meditation and on the other no meditation but just the > study of abhidhamma.I considered I had found this with Sayadaw U > Tejaniya's approach. > I really wish I could undrstand your position and hope to get a much > better understanding when we meet in February. When someone here criticizes A. Sujin, I often get angry and I note that I become momentarily stupid. But I think when discussing Dhamma we would do well not to be moved by `personalities', this serves only to obscure and make hard to understand the as it is hardest of subjects. I hope you take my direct comments in this post which clearly goes against most if not all other well respected teachers as reflection of an interest in Dhamma and hence greatest respect for the Buddha himself. I hope you don't mind the long post. If you wish, you don't have to respond yet, but can wait till we meet next month. With respect, Sukin. #80710 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 1:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 222, 223, and Tiika. nilovg Dear Sarah, Thank you for your good wishes, and likewise to you and Jon. Your remarks are good, it gives me an opportunity to consider why the Visuddhimagga states this or that in this context. Op 2-jan-2008, om 8:30 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > the sixfold aayatana includes also the external aayatanas. > .... > S: Interesting. Whenever I've brought up these sections or > references to > the sixfold ayatana in the Suttas with K.Sujin, she is adamant that > the > external ayatanas are also included. How can there be innter ayatanas > without external ayatanas? Also, with regard to past sections on > feelings, > for example, referring to vipaka cittas in the text, again she > stresses > that all feelings are included. Attachment can be attached to any > feeling. ------- N: I quite agree. But in this context the Vis. first deals with the sense bases as result of kamma and with the mind-base that is vipaaka. We have to see it all in this context. As is said, the mind-base refers to rebirth-consciousness. Thus, we are still at the moment of rebirth. For humans only the bodybase arises, but for other beings spontaneously born there may be complete sensebases. However, the object at that moment is not yet a sense object, it is still the same object as that experienced during the last javanacittas before dying. All these sections move on slowly from vipaaka to the 'active side of life': craving and clinging. The Vis. also it deals first with the feelings that are vipaaka: <229. In the analysis of this clause [in the Vibha"nga] only six kinds of feeling according to door are given thus, 'Eye-contact-born feeling, ear-, nose-, tongue-, body-, mind-contact-born feeling' (Vbh. 136). Still, when classed according to association with the eighty-nine kinds of consciousness, they are 'at nine and eighty sorts assessed'. ------- 230. But from the nine and eighty feelings Thirty-two, no more, appear Associated with result, And only those are mentioned here. ..> As you say: Attachment can be attached to any feeling.. After the feeling sections the Vis. deals with the next link: craving. ----------... > > The Tiika mentions that according to the words of the first teacher > > the internal aayatanas produced by kamma are the condition for such > > contact. The text refers to these as ‘ what is included in one's own > > continuity’ (sasantatipariyaapanna). Moreover, the ruupas beginning > > with visible object which are the external aayatanas and not clung > > to, unlike the ruupas which are the senses produced by kamma, are > the > > objects of contact. > ... > S: I think this means that the rupas beginning with visible object > (external ayatanas) are not clung to in the sense of upadana/upadinna > referring to rupas conditioned by kamma. Of course they are clung to > (upadana/upadinna) in second wider sense of the term. Any conditioned > dhamma (other than the lokuttara dhammas) can be clung to. ------ N: clear. ---------- > ... > > But, as the Tiika explains, according to the second teacher, also > the > > outer aayatanas are taken as condition for contact, and this fact > > cannot be denied, in whatever way such condition may operate. > ... > S: Once when I brought it up with KS, she stressed that we shouldn't > forget our understanding of conditions. There has to be the > 'meeting' of > the inner and outer ayatanas for contact to take place. ------- N: In the following sections (soon coming up) the different conditions are dealt with in detail. ------ Nina. #80711 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 2:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy nilovg Dear Scott (Larry, James), Op 2-jan-2008, om 4:41 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: > Larry: Another example > of right concentration that is not vipassana would be reading in order > to help someone or playing the guitar to cheer up someone." > > Scott: This is helpful, I think. Concentration influences citta > through conascent arising which is, at the same time, under the > influence of, say, conascent mettaa in directing action. The object > of focus is a concept: someone in need of help or cheering up. Since > the citta is kusala, it is Right Concentration. Is that the gist? -------- N: Here we have situations and during such situations there are many kinds of citta arising, kusala, akusala and neither kusala nor akusala. In general we can say that when the objective is not daana, siila or bhaavana, the cittas are akusala cittas. When playing guitar or piano, we like the music, pay attention to it, and then there is lobha, or there is dosa when we have trouble reading notes. The monk is not allowed music and that is meaningful. It is not a suitable occupation for him. However, also during our playing cittas with metta or with mindfulness of nama and rupa may arise. We find that music can help people when they suffer, bodily or mentally. When the citta is kusala citta also the accompanying concentration is kusala. The term right concentration is mostly used for the factor of the eightfold Path right concentration. ***** Nina. #80712 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 2:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga, was Anatta as a strategy nilovg Hi James, Op 2-jan-2008, om 3:40 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > James: Okay, notice here that you define supramundane right view as > panna (pa~n~naa). -------- N: Yes, right view is another word for pa~n~naa. ------- > > > As to mundane right view (pa~n~naa): mundane kusala citta > accompanied > > by mundane right view > > James: Here you define mundane right view as panna (pa~n~naa). ------ N: Yes. Also pa~n~naa, but mundane. --------- > > So long as we are in the cycle we have latent akusala tendencies, no > > matter we perform kusala or commit akusala. Inspite of this, the > > worldling can develop pa~n~naa, right view. > James: Now, here you state that the worldling can develop pa~n~naa, > right view. (No one could possibly know which right view you mean > because you aren't being specific enough). ------ N: Yes, mundane right view, it HAS to begin like that. In what way do you like me to specify more? What is not clear? ------- > N> In the sutta you refer to we read; <"Of those, right view is the > > forerunner. And how is right view the forerunner? One discerns wrong > > action as wrong action, and right action as right action. And > what is > > wrong action? Killing, taking what is not given, illicit sex. > This is > > wrong action. > > "And what is right action? Right action, I tell you, is of two > sorts: > > There is right action with fermentations, siding with merit, > > resulting in the acquisitions [of becoming]; and there is noble > right > > action, without fermentations, transcendent, a factor of the path. > > > Discerning right action from wrong action, thus also discerning > > kusala citta from akusala citta. Right or wrong? -------- > James: Here you equate right action and wrong action with kusala citta > and akusala citta. You are using "citta" in the singular, which means > discerning individual mind states. It seems that you are equating the > knowing of right and wrong actions to knowing individual mind states > as they arise. ------ N: Kusala citta motivates right action and akusala citta motivates wrong action. Should we not know the citta that motivates an action, more than just the outward appearance of an action? When you are kind and helpful, we can say: this is not James, but it is the kusala citta motivating this. We pay attention to the moment, more than to a situation. It helps us to come closer to reality. -------- > J: This is, again, going too far. We can discern right > or wrong actions with great difficulty and with a lot of practice. > However, when doing so, we are not able to discern individual mind > states. That is just too advanced as they occur too rapidly. -------- N: Yes, that is difficult, cittas are so fast. Through listening (always listening) understanding, pa~n~naa can arise. This is the condition for a beginning (still coarse) of knowing the difference between mettaa and anger. When angry, the mindstate or citta is so harsh, and also the feeling. When there is metta, the citta is gentle and supple, quite different from the harshness of anger or irritation. In this way gradually we can learn. It is not impossible. You took a difficult sutta, but shall we not limit ourselves to the Visuddhimagga? It may be a good idea for the sake of reference to different kinds of understanding, pa~n~naa. Nina. #80713 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 5:10 am Subject: Perfections Corner (71) nichiconn Dear All, http://www.zolag.co.uk/ - The Perfections Leading to Enlightenment by Sujin Boriharnwanaket; translated by Nina van Gorkom. Chapter 9: The Perfection of Loving-kindness (continued) Sympathetic joy is rejoicing in someone else's welfare. This is compared to the joy of parents who have a child that is becoming an adolescent and wish for the child to keep on enjoying the good things of adolescence for a long time. Equanimity is like a child who can manage his own affairs so that he is no longer a burden to his parents, and his parents do not have to exert themselves with regard to each of his actions. If the brahmavihaaras are practised in the aforesaid ways, defilements can be abandoned and pa~n~naa can be developed which knows what is beneficial and what is disadvantageous. The brahmavihaaras are most valuable, but we should verify for ourselves whether we truly have loving-kindness, compassion, sympathetic joy and equanimity. We should remember that the development of pa~n~naa and the eradication of defilements take an endlessly long time. As we have seen, compassion is intent on removing the suffering of beings. However, since pa~n~naa is not of the degree of accomplishment of the Sammasambuddha, we do not fathom the true characteristic of suffering, dukkha. We do not fully grasp the suffering of birth, old age, sickness, death, the suffering due to impermanence all beings are subject to. The arising and falling away of realities is the noble Truth of dukkha, this is the real suffering. True compassion on account of this kind of suffering is of another dimension and can only be fulfilled by the Buddha {*}. In our daily life we usually do not realize the extent of the suffering of being in the cycle of birth and death. It is difficult for us to have true compassion on account of this, and therefore, there are more opportunities for the arising of mettaa. When we see other beings and people, we can extend mettaa towards them and assist them with mettaa. However, it may happen that other people are beyond help. If we have developed pa~n~naa we can have equanimity and evenmindedness. We can have impartiality and equanimity with regard to righteous people as well as people with wrong conduct. This is the perfection of equanimity. {*} The Bodhisatta wanted to attain Buddhahood so that he could help beings to be free from the cycle of birth and death. It is said in the Commentary to the 'Basket of Conduct" that the perfections he developed were accompanied by compassion and skilful means. We read: "What are their characteristics, functions, manifestations and proximate causes? Firstly, all the paramis, without exception, have as their characteristic the benefiting of others; as their function, the rendering of help to others, or not vacillating; as their manifestation, the wish for the welfare of others, or Buddhahood; and as their proximate cause, great compassion, or compassion and skilful means." === to be continued, connie #80714 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 5:13 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (72) nichiconn dear friends, Part 21 15. Cattaaliisanipaato 1. Isidaasiitheriigaathaava.n.nanaa 446. "Ta.m ma.m tato satthavaaho, ussannaaya vipulaaya va.d.dhiyaa; oka.d.dhati vilapanti.m, acchinditvaa kulagharasmaa. 444. Then, because of the large amount of interest that had accumulated, a caravan leader removed me from my family home and dragged me off wailing. Ussannaayaati upacitaaya. Vipulaayaati mahatiyaa. Va.d.dhiyaati i.nava.d.dhiyaa. Oka.d.dhatiiti avaka.d.dhati. Kulagharasmaati mama jaatakulagehato. Orundhatassa puttoti assa satthavaahassa putto, mayi pa.tibaddhacitto naamena giridaaso naama avarundhati attano pariggahabhaavena gehe karoti. 444. Accumulated (ussannaaya) means: accumulated (upacitaaya). The large amount means: the great amount. Interest (va.d.dhiyaa) means: the interest on the debt (i.na-va.d.dhiyaa). [He] dragged me off (oka.d.dhati) means: he dragged me off (avaka.d.dhati). From my family home (kula-gharasmaa) means: from my family home where I was born (jaata-kula-gehato). His son took me into his house (orundhat') means: his, the caravan leader's, son, who was enamoured of me - [the son] Giridaasa by name (naamena = naama), took me into his house (avarundhati), he established me in his house in the position of a wife. 447. "Atha so.lasame vasse, disvaa ma.m pattayobbana.m ka~n~na.m; orundhatassa putto, giridaaso naama naamena. 445. Then in my sixteenth year, his son, Giridaasa by name, saw me as a maiden of marriageable age and took me into his house. Anurattaa bhattaaranti bhattaara.m anuvattikaa. Tassaaha.m viddesanamakaasinti tassa bhattuno ta.m bhariya.m sapatti.m viddesanakamma.m akaasi.m. Yathaa ta.m so kujjhati, eva.m pa.tipajji.m. 445. Affectionate (anurattaa) towards her husband means: devoted (anuvattikaa) to her husband. I stirred up enmity (viddesanam akaasi.m) with her means: I performed (akaasi.m) an act of enmity (viddesana-kamma.m) towards her, that wife of my husband, my co-wife. I was intent on making him be angry with her. 449. "Tasseta.m kammaphala.m, ya.m ma.m apakiirituuna gacchanti; daasiiva upa.t.thahanti.m, tassapi anto kato mayaa"ti. 447. This was the fruit of that action for me, that they went, rejecting me, although I served them like a slave girl. Even of that I have now made an end. Ya.m ma.m apakiirituuna gacchantiiti ya.m daasii viya sakkacca.m upa.t.thahanti.m ma.m tattha tattha patino apakiritvaa cha.d.detvaa anapekkhaa apagacchanti. Eta.m tassaa mayha.m tadaa katassa paradaarikakammassa sapatti.m viddesanakammassa ca nissandaphala.m. Tassapi anto kato mayaati tassapi tathaa anunayapaapakakammassa daaru.nassa pariyanto idaani mayaa aggamagga.m adhigacchantiyaa kato, ito para.m ki~nci dukkha.m natthiiti. Ya.m panettha antarantaraa na vibhatta.m, ta.m vuttanayattaa uttaanatthameva. Isidaasiitheriigaathaava.n.nanaa ni.t.thitaa. Cattaaliisanipaatava.n.nanaa ni.t.thitaa. 447. That they went (gacchanti), rejecting (apakiirituuna) me means: althoug I served them carefully like a slave, those various husbands having rejected (apakiritvaa), having abandoned, me, without longing, they went away (apagacchanti). This is the consequence and fruit of that act of adultery done then by me and the act of enmity towards my co-wife. Even of that I have now made an end means: even of that, ending the strong inclination to do evil action thus, I have now made [an end] through attaining the highest path. There is no misery whatever from now on. Now, for whatever has not been explained here and there in this [group of verses], the meaning is plain because of what has been said. Here ends the commentary on the verses of Therii Isidaasii. Here ends the commentary on the section of forty [verses]. *CAF Rhys Davids: Psalms of the Sisters, with the Chronicle from the Commentary by Dhammapaala entitled 'The Elucidation of the Highest Meaning'. PTS 1909 @ http://digital.library.upenn.edu/women/davids/psalms/psalms.html *Wm Pruitt: The Commentary on the Verses of the Theriis: Theriigaathaa-A.t.thakathaa, Paramatthadiipanii VI by Aacariya Dhammapaala. PTS 1999 *txt/cy: vri cscd, tipitaka.org best wishes, connie #80715 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 6:11 am Subject: Welcome To The Theravada Fold -- Re: Ignorance......wrong concentration abhidhammika Dear Sarah, Nina, Chris F, Jon, Scott D, Howard, Mike N, Robert K How are you? Sarah, thank you for quoting suttas on Wrong Concentration and Right Concentration. By quoting them, do you now accept the importance of Right Concentration (Sammaasamaadhi)? And, with that, do you now accept the compulsory nature of formal development of Right Concentration? When you became able to answer Yes to the above questions, I would consider that you are within the fold of the mainstream Theravada Saasana of Gotama the Buddha. Looking forward to your group conforming to Mainstream Theravada in 2008! Happy New Year With regards, Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: AN, Bk of 10s, ch XI, Sama.nasa~n~naavaggo (Ideas of a Recluse)*, v (105), Vijjaa Sutta (By Knowledge) (PTS) " 'Monks, when ignorance (avijjaa) leads the way, by the reaching of states unprofitable (akusala), shamelessness (ahiri) and recklessness (anottappa) follow in its train. In one who is swayed by ignorance and is void of sense of wrong view (micchaa di.t.thi) springs up. Wrong view gives rise to wrong thinking, wrong thinking to wrong speech, wrong speech to wrong action, wrong action to wrong living, wrong living to wrong effort, wrong effort to wrong mindfulness, wrong mindfulness to wrong concentration (michaa samaadhi), that to wrong knowledge, and that to wrong release (micha vimutti). But, monks, when knowledge leads the way, by the attainment of profitable (kusala) states the sense of shame (hiri) and self-restraint(ottappa) follow in its train. In one who is swayed by knowledge and has good sense, right view (sammaa di.t.thi) springs up. Right view gives rise to right thinking.....................right concentration (sammaa samaadhi) gives rise to right knowledge, and that to right release (sammaa vimutti).' " Metta, Sarah ========= #80716 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 6:50 am Subject: Welcome To The Theravada Fold -- Re: Ignorance......wrong concentration scottduncan2 Dear Suan, S: "How are you?" Scott: I'm well, thanks. I hope you are too. S: "...do you now accept the importance of Right Concentration (Sammaasamaadhi)?" Scott: Here, I think, you are referring only to cultivating Jhaana. Do you not consider that all 'Concentration' is a function of citass' ekaggataa - including jhaana? I think that it is the characteristic of this particular mental factor to unite the other factors in a certain 'relationship' with a given object. Wouldn't jhaana be a special case of certain mental factors united under the influence of citass' ekaggataa? In other words, I understand that citass' ekaggataa does not develop on its own, since it is a Universal, and that it's development is not only limited to jhaana. S: "And, with that, do you now accept the compulsory nature of formal development of Right Concentration?" Scott: I'm interested in getting a cogent answer to this point. I'd like to read your opinion as to why you consider Right Concentration only in light of its place in jhaana, if I'm understanding you. And, as well, why it would be any more 'compulsory' than the development of concentration during Vipassana? And what about the apparent difficulty in having the proper conditions for jhaana to begin to arise with enough strength as to be condition for subsequent moments of jhaana to continue to arise? I don't doubt that jhaana has a venerable place in the history of Theravada. To whom is it possible now? What is the evidence to suggest that this is still possible? How does one know that one is not merely fooling oneself into thinking that jhaana is arising? As a relative newcomer I've read enough contradictory information and misinformation about jhaana as to stay away from it completely. I'm not so sure that there are many reliable jhaana practitioners in the world. Sincerely, Scott. #80717 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 7:08 am Subject: Preserving the Buddha's Teachings, Ch 8, no 8. nilovg Dear friends, The more we understand the appropriate conditions for the arising of satipatthåna, the less shall we have anxiety about the countless moments of forgetfulness. When we unknowingly try to have sati it is wrong practice. When there are no conditions for the arising of sati, it does not arise, but, someone may wonder, is there any action that can be taken? We should continue to study and consider all realities of our daily life, with the aim to have more understanding of them. Our aim should not be having more moments of sati, that is desire and thus counteractive to the arising of sati. The four Applications of Mindfulness of body, feelings, cittas and dhammas include, as we have seen, all realities of daily life. They are explained under many different aspects with the aim to remind us that whatever appears in our life can be the object of mindfulness and right understanding. We cling to "our feeling", be it pleasant, unpleasant or indifferent feeling. We cling to "our remembrance" (saññå), whenever we remember or recognize someone or something. Feeling and remembrance are dhammas, they are cetasikas arising with the citta. We have intellectual understanding of the difference between citta and cetasika, but they are not clearly understood as different nåmas before the first stage of insight knowledge has been reached. Still, we can begin to be aware of nåma such as feeling or remembrance when they appear, so that understanding can gradually develop and the different characteristics of citta and cetasika can be realized as nåma elements devoid of self. We heard each day that we should develop understanding with courage and gladness. Acharn Sujin asked me whether I have gladness of the level of pariyatti, intellectual understanding, or of the level of practice. I answered that it is of the level of pariyatti. Her question was a good pointer for me. We think about courage and cheerfulness, but when there is satipatthåna there is no need to think of them, because there are conditions already to be courageous continuing its development and not to be downhearted. The difference between the levels of intellectual understanding and understanding based on the practice, I found, became clearer during our pilgrimage. If we do not know the difference we are bound to take thinking for awareness. Acharn Sujin stressed all the time that everything is dhamma, and that means, realities are non-self. It became more apparent to me how deeply rooted our clinging to the idea of self is. We wish to develop satipatthåna "for our own sake", as Acharn Sujin said, and this had not occurred to me before. We may cling to "our progress". There is such a deeply rooted idea of "I know, I understand, I consider", but we usually do not notice this. There are many moments of listening to the Dhamma, they do not last, and therefore, we should not take them for self. I had not noticed before that also listening can be taken for self. I am most grateful to Acharn Sujin for pointing out the different moments of more subtle clinging that are bound to arise. When we see the extent of the clinging to ourselves, we shall have more confidence in the teachings and we shall have a deeper respect for the Buddha who taught all realities in detail. Considering the Dhamma is the greatest respect we could show to the Buddha at the holy sites. We know that understanding should be developed until we realize that in truth all that appears is dhamma. (the end) ***** Nina. #80718 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 7:10 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy scottduncan2 Dear Nina, Thanks for the reply: N: "...The term right concentration is mostly used for the factor of the eightfold Path right concentration." Scott: Is this, then, in reference only to Jhaana? Sincerely, Scott. #80719 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 7:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhaana, was: Anatta as a strategy nilovg Dear Scott and Suan, When we read about right concentration in the suttas I think that the Buddha included different types of it. Thus, it may be concentration developed in jhaana, or it may be developed in vipassana by those who also cultivated samatha. Or, for the sukha vipassakas right concentration accompanying right understanding of the eightfold Path, still mundane. Or right concentration accompanying lokuttara cittas, both of sukkha vipassakas (in that case with the strength of the first jhaana) and of jhaanalabhii. Dear Suan, what about sukkha vipassakas the commentarial texts speak about? We cannot say that everybody can attain Jhaana, or do you believe so? I do not think anything can be compulsary, since the Buddha knew that people's accumulations are so different. I am thinking of the texts of the Puggala pa~n~natti. Nina. Op 2-jan-2008, om 16:10 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: > "...The term right concentration is mostly used for the factor of the > eightfold Path right concentration." > > Scott: Is this, then, in reference only to Jhaana? #80720 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 7:28 am Subject: Re: Anatta as a strategy scottduncan2 Dear James, Regarding: J: "Wrong concentration is the concentration required to do an unwholesome deed: like kill someone, still something, lie, etc. The concentration required to learn to play guitar, to read a book, learn a foreign language, etc. is not wrong concentration, it is just mundane concentration...." Scott: MN117: "And what, bhikkhus, is noble right concentration with its supports and its requisites, that is right view, right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, and right mindfulness? Unification of mind equipped with these seven factors is called noble right concentration with its supports and its requisites. "Therein, bhikkhus, right view come first. And how does right view come first? One understands wrong view as wrong view and right view as right view: this one's right view... "And what, bhikkhus, is right view? Right view, I say, is twofold: there is right view that is affected by the taints, partaking of merit, ripening in acquisitions; and there is right view that is noble, taintless, supramundane, a factor of the path..." Scott: I'd suggest that this template, set out in reference to Right View, applies to all eight aspect of the Noble Eightfold Path. In this case, I'm suggesting that Right Concentration as well is twofold. I'd suggest that jhaana would constitute right concentration that is 'affected by the taints, partaking of merit, ripening in acquisitions'. In this sense, it is not to be recommended over vipassanaa as a way to develop citass' ekaggataa. I'm not saying it should be devalued - just not idealised. Right Concentration that is noble, that is a 'factor of the path', is not jhaana. That being the case, it still makes no sense to me that jhaana is pushed as it is. As well, it remains clear to me now that when one is told to 'meditate' here on DSG, jhaana is not being recommended, based on the way 'meditation' seems to be defined (that is, as a way to relax). Sincerely, Scott. #80721 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 11:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] thoughts on practice nilovg Hi Larry, Op 2-jan-2008, om 2:23 heeft LBIDD@... het volgende geschreven: > Thanks for your reply on conceit. Actually, I have noticed that > whenever > I send an email or even think about sending an email, conceit > arises. An > email is definitely waving the banner for me. This is a good thing to > taste, but tasting isn't enough to penetrate it. ------ N: Good reminder. but there are different cittas: wishing to help, also aversion when it is tiring. Or conceit: I know better. But they all have to be known as mere dhammas, and this is difficult. ------- > > L: Here's a question on self view. Self view is identity and > perception is > identity. It seems that the main difference is that perception can > arise > with insight rather than clinging. ------ N: There is the perversion of perception or sa~n~naa. It arises with each akusala citta, thus, often. --------- > L: But perception perceives sameness. If > there were no perception of sameness we wouldn't recognize > anything. But > sameness assumes a degree of permanence even when there is insight. > How > does panna penetrate this without destroying the function of > perception? ------- N: I have some trouble with your word sameness. I rather think of sa~n~naa as marking the object each moment citta arises, it always accompanies citta. When citta experience a concept of a whole, sa~n~naa marks that. It arises and falls away immediately, together with the citta. That is its nature and pa~n~naa, when it is developed more, can penetrate its true nature and its arising and falling away. How could pa~n~naa destroy anything? But the perversity of sa~n~naa can be eradicated by pa~n~naa eventually. --------- Nina. #80722 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 7:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] thoughts on practice upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Larry) - In a message dated 1/2/2008 2:39:26 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: > L: But perception perceives sameness. If > there were no perception of sameness we wouldn't recognize > anything. But > sameness assumes a degree of permanence even when there is insight. > How > does panna penetrate this without destroying the function of > perception? ------- N: I have some trouble with your word sameness. I rather think of sa~n~naa as marking the object each moment citta arises, it always accompanies citta. When citta experience a concept of a whole, sa~n~naa marks that. It arises and falls away immediately, together with the citta. That is its nature and pa~n~naa, when it is developed more, can penetrate its true nature and its arising and falling away. How could pa~n~naa destroy anything? But the perversity of sa~n~naa can be eradicated by pa~n~naa eventually. ============================== Nina, I think that Larry's point may be the following: Sa~n~na has two phases - an initial marking phase at which a dhamma is conceptually/perceptually "tagged" and a subsequent comparison/recognition phase at which a "memory search" for a prior tag is made to match with the the current dhamma, and identify it. Recognition requires comparison, and a match requires at least some commonality of feature, which Larry refers to as "sameness". (Note that the Latin roots for 'identify' are the words for "same" and "make".) But, Larry, having a common feature, or even many common features, doesn't imply anything with regard to permanence. For example, at one moment there is a particular odor; later there is the same sort of odor, but differing slightly perhaps in experiential "flavor" and/or in intensity, and certainly differing in terms of its causes and conditions and related dhammas at the time of occurrence, yet similar enough for someone to say "It's the same thing I smelled yesterday." For example, we smelled banana yesterday morning and again today, and we "say" that it's the same smell. Of course, it isn't literally the same. With metta, Howard #80723 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 4:28 pm Subject: Re: Anatta as a strategy buddhatrue Hi Scott, Thank you for the post. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Dear James, > > Regarding: > > J: "Wrong concentration is the concentration required to do an > unwholesome deed: like kill someone, still something, lie, etc. The > concentration required to learn to play guitar, to read a book, learn > a foreign language, etc. is not wrong concentration, it is just > mundane concentration...." > > Scott: MN117: > > "And what, bhikkhus, is noble right concentration with its supports > and its requisites, that is right view, right intention, right speech, > right action, right livelihood, right effort, and right mindfulness? > Unification of mind equipped with these seven factors is called noble > right concentration with its supports and its requisites. > > "Therein, bhikkhus, right view come first. And how does right view > come first? One understands wrong view as wrong view and right view > as right view: this one's right view... > > "And what, bhikkhus, is right view? Right view, I say, is twofold: > there is right view that is affected by the taints, partaking of > merit, ripening in acquisitions; and there is right view that is > noble, taintless, supramundane, a factor of the path..." > > Scott: I'd suggest that this template, set out in reference to Right > View, applies to all eight aspect of the Noble Eightfold Path. In > this case, I'm suggesting that Right Concentration as well is twofold. James: Right. There is Right Concentration, which is the jhanas. And there is Noble Right Concentration which is the jhanas (singleness of mind) accompanied by the other factors of the Noble Eightfold Path. As I gave the example, Devadatta developed Right Concentration and attained psychic abilities, but he didn't develop NOBLE Right Concentration so he became jealous of and tried to kill the Buddha. > > I'd suggest that jhaana would constitute right concentration that is > 'affected by the taints, partaking of merit, ripening in > acquisitions'. James: Okay, I would agree. That is just Right Concentration, not Noble Right Concentration. In this sense, it is not to be recommended over > vipassanaa as a way to develop citass' ekaggataa. I'm not saying it > should be devalued - just not idealised. Right Concentration that is > noble, that is a 'factor of the path', is not jhaana. James: Damn! We were on the same page for a change and now suddenly you have jumped to an entirely different book! ;-)) First, vipassana isn't concentration or singleness of mind, or anything like that, vipassana is just a Pali word for insight. Vipassana can occur during jhana (as when the Buddha gained the Three Knowledges) or it can occur outside of jhana (as when Ananda became enlightened). However, jhana had to have been achieved previously for vipassana (insight) to arise as the mind needs to know a pleasure not dependent on the senses. Second, I don't know what you mean by "idealised". If you believe that I idealize jhana in some way then specifically tell me how you believe so. Finally, you last sentence above completely contradicts the sutta you quoted. Noble Right Concentration is the four jhanas accompanied by the other factors of the path. > > That being the case, it still makes no sense to me that jhaana is > pushed as it is. James: Jhana is "pushed", as you say, because it is an essential factor of the Noble Eightfold Path which some members believe can be eliminated entirely. As well, it remains clear to me now that when one is > told to 'meditate' here on DSG, jhaana is not being recommended, based > on the way 'meditation' seems to be defined (that is, as a way to relax). James: First of all, who told you to meditate? If you don't want to meditate, that's your business. The Buddha's path is gradual so perhaps you will meditate in future lives. If anything, the meditators in this group are constantly told to stop meditating! They are told that it is Wrong Concentration, not necessary, not possible, dangerous, etc. etc. etc. Secondly, no one defined meditation as a way to relax (that I can recall). Meditation will result in tranquility because the hindrances are suppressed, but the goal of meditation is vipassana (insight). > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > Metta, James #80724 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 4:37 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Reply to your letter on terminology vs practice jonoabb Dear Ven Pannabahulo Just a comment or two on the last part of your post to Sarah. --- pannabahulo wrote: > Dear Sarah, ... > My point to you was that the Group discussions on CD and the ones I > attended in Bagkok were not group discussions. You have explained > that the CDs were edited and doctored so it is difficult to know what > happened in India. This latter is a rather surprising comment! I'm not sure how (or why) the recordings made of our discussions with Ajarn Sujin should be 'doctored', but I can assure you that the only editing that is done is 'tidying-up' editing such as removing long pauses, intrusive noises and non-dhamma discussion; there is no manipulation of the actual discussion. Our discussions with Ajarn Sujin are just that: discussions with Ajarn Sujin. We do not portray them as 'Group Discussions', in the sense that a westener would take that to mean. The discussion you attended in Bangkok was arranged by Sarah and me to coincide with a visit by Azita. (The ones in February are also arranged by us.) We like the discussions on these occasions to be as open as possible, so that others can contribute (and benefit); we would not dream of seeking a private session with A. Sujin. The discussions are open to all-comers, including those who hold different views about the meaning of 'practice', and we try to see that any visitors get every chance to discuss their views (some are reticent and need a little prodding to speak their mind;-)). ... > My reply to these remarks is that a group discussin should be just > that. But, if you arrive with a pre-set agenda which you are > detemined to get through at whatever cost, that requires a different > forum. Maybe you could arrange for a private question and answer > session with Ajan Sujin. > What I do know is that last time you were in Bangkok other people did > raise questions about actually using the Abhidhamma; but when they > paused to consider Ajan's reply or to reflect on what had been said, > you were straight in there asking for yet another terminological > clarification and the thread of what others were saying was lost. This was not my perception of the occasion. I do hope you did not feel shut out at all. ... > Over the last year I have learnt a lot and my viewpoint has changed a > great deal; it is still changing. This is Dhamma working. I am only > concerned that making the trip to Bangkok will be worthwhile and > allow me, and other members of the group, to have the wonderful > opportunity to learn what we may need to know from Ajan and each > other. I would like to hear what other member's experiences are and > to share different viewpoints together. I hope you will consider this > request I'm sure you'll find there is ample oporunity to bring up your questions or comments, and for others present to share their views. There will also be questions from others about the meaning of particluar terms ;-)). If at any time you think the discussion has strayed from the useful, into purely theoretical territory, please feel free to say so rather than suffer in silence! There is nothing A. Sujin appreciates more than discussion on what is and is not the practice (and I'm sure the same goes for the rest of us). Looking forward to seeing you in Bangkok. With respect Jon #80725 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 5:14 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Preserving the Buddha's Teachings, Ch 4, no 3. dcwijeratna Hello Andrew, Thanks for the reply and the kind words. I am a lucky fellow; my daughter is also a computer engineer and so is her husband. So when we get together we have lot of topics for discussion. For my part, I keep in touch with the latest development in the field. So I don't get classed as that "old codger." I am very pleased to learn that you are a lawyer. That most probably is why I could establish communication with you; acceptance of things on the basis of evidence (eye-witnesses, in your parlance) and rational arguments. >>Andrew: So let me just recap to make sure I have not mixed up the different contexts for worldlings - 1. saddhaa involves action that may be akusala (depending upon what we as individuals know and the workings of the society we live in); 2. siila, however, is based upon absolute fact/reality e.g. killing is always akusala and is always a breach of siila.<< You are correct, but it most probably is better to approach the subject this way. Origin of saddhaa goes back to early vedic times. At that time it was called sraadha (a ceremony pracice)--you get a description of that in Monier-Williams Sanskrit Dictionary and in Basham's 'Wonder that was India". It was a ceremony carried out by sons and grandsons (especially) to send the 'dead father' from the 'world of fathers' to the world of gods. It is practised even today in India. This was the beginning of the belief in after-life and more importantly that 'something can be done by human beings to go to heaven'; praying and other forms of worship at that time consisted of asking for worldly boons. As time went on all religious activities became saddha. Now this involved both actions by word (hymns, mantra etc, and by deed--moral behaviour. (I am trying to condense 1500 years or so of religious history to a couple of sentences). People learnt about saddhaa by tradition. The belief involved here, if it can be called a belief, is that there is life after death. In Buddhist texts, this type of saddhaa is called 'amuulikaa saddhaa.' In modern religious studies, this is called "engaging the sacred"; basically praying and worshiping, going of pilgrimages; behavior according to the commandments of God--God and the Sacred are more or less synonymous. For example, see Canki sutta (MN 95). Amuulikaa saddhaa means 'engaging the sacred' without knowledge of the sacred or on belief-faith. All religions fall into this class. God is the "Unknown", "transcendent" and so on. This is also the Saddhaa of the average Buddhist. He has no knowledge. He has learnt it by tradition--from parents, elders and from bhikkhus. Saddhaa, in the canon, on the other hand is based on "knowledge." In the Kaalaama sutta for instance, it is stated as "attanaava jaaneyyatha," when you know for yourself. You learn by observing the world. For example, you learn that if you bully your younger brother, you get punished by your parents. Later as you grow up you learn that, if you try such things with outsiders you will be punished by society (or law). This is why samaadi.t.thi is described as the knowledge of the Four Ariyan Truths." Here you undertake the "religious activities" not by praying and so on but by controlling your behavior. Behavior by both word and by deed. That is siila. If you are a householder, you control it by undertaking the five precepts. You resolve in your own mind, that you will not kill etc. Of course, this is an extremely difficult thing to do. Therefore you will break it at the beginning. Then what you do is to acknowledge that there has been a breach of the siila, then find a way to avoid that in the future and again undertake it. This acknoledgement is necessary. It is neither confession nor repentance. This type of terms have no meaning in Dhamma. The deed that has been done is done; nothing can be done about it. All you can do is to resolve to never to repeat it. Undertake the siila again with that resolve. This type of things involves lot of contemplation and soul-searching. That is what starts giving insight (wisdom) to the nature of things. That is how you acquire pa~n~naa. But if by any chance, you justify your breach of siila--everybody is drinking, so what is the harm in having a glass of wine before dinner--then you will not progress. As you practice, you learn that if you stick to the siila, you are a happy man. You learn that doing 'good' brings happiness and doing 'evil' brings 'unhappiness'. Really, this is all the teaching of the Buddha for the householder (puthujjana). See the two opeining stanzas of the Dhammapada. At this level you will continue in samsaara but you will be in 'good' states of being (sugati--human being or a god). If you read Kaalaama sutta, you will get all this stuff. Please read it to the end. There is a translaton of the sutta ar Access-to-insight. That is quite a lot of stuff. Have you read Ariyapariyesana Sutta MN 26. This describes the Bodhisatta's search for the "Ariya." Bhikkhu Bodhis translates it as the Noble Search. It is a great help to understand the Buddhist path. When we were children, we spent more time learning about the Buddha Carita--the life of the Buddha--than learning about Dhamma. The reason most probably was that is what we could understand--history. Dhamma we could not understand. The Dhamma that we could understand was what I described above--the five precepts. And that was the only thing that had any influence on our behaviour. The Dhamma was expounded by the Buddha consequent to his realization. It--really the Four Noble Truths--is understood only by arahants. Well that is quite a lot. I think that even to understand 'What the Buddha taught' not to understand the Dhamma, it is necessary to proceed in a systematic way. I personally think one needs to start with the Dhammacakkappavattana sutta. Studing that sutta is not easy. You have to go word by word, sentence by sentence. And you need to understand it; if you try to interpret it on the basis of any view you will fail. You need to give up all your opinions, views, prejudices, in short all your beliefs. Please try to do that. One difficulty you will have is not being able to read the original Pali. All translations are biased. You can start with a translation. Then we can discuss it. May the new year bring happiness to you. D. G. D. C. Wijeratna #80726 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 5:23 pm Subject: Re: [dsg]To Sarah: vipaka. Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (7) dcwijeratna Happy new year to you, my friend. Sukhii hotu, D. G. D. C. Wijeratna #80727 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 7:17 pm Subject: Re: Anatta as a strategy scottduncan2 Dear James, Thanks for the reply: Me: "I'd suggest that this template, set out in reference to Right View, applies to all eight aspect of the Noble Eightfold Path. In this case, I'm suggesting that Right Concentration as well is twofold." James: "Right. There is Right Concentration, which is the jhanas. And there is Noble Right Concentration which is the jhanas (singleness of mind) accompanied by the other factors of the Noble Eightfold Path. As I gave the example, Devadatta developed Right Concentration and attained psychic abilities, but he didn't develop NOBLE Right Concentration so he became jealous of and tried to kill the Buddha." Scott: Path moments are lokuttara, not lokiya. The Concentration that rises with a moment of the Path is not jhaana, since jhaana is lokiya. 'Singleness of mind' is not jhaana. Singleness of mind is another name for the cetasika citass' ekaggataa, a synonym for samaadhi. The function of this dhamma is to unite the other factors of jhaana I think that it is this cetasika, at the level of lokuttara, that is Noble Right Concentration. You are erroneously suggesting that one of the jhaanas arises at the moment of the Path. This is impossible since it is Nibbaana that is the object at a moment of the Path. Jhaanas are lokiya and do not have Nibbaana as object; they have concept for object, as far as I can tell. James: "Damn! We were on the same page for a change and now suddenly you have jumped to an entirely different book! ;-))" Scott: Ha ha. J: "First, vipassana isn't concentration or singleness of mind, or anything like that, vipassana is just a Pali word for insight..." Scott: The operative dhamma in vipassanaa is pa~n~naa. Insight is a function of pa~n~naa. J: "...Vipassana can occur during jhana (as when the Buddha gained the Three Knowledges) or it can occur outside of jhana (as when Ananda became enlightened)...." Scott: The assertion that pa~n~naa can arise during jhaana is not correct as far as I understand this. Can you show this in the texts? My reasoning is that jhaana has to have ended in order for pa~n~naa to penetrate any of the dhammas which were the constituents of the jhaana. Your statement suggests a misunderstanding of the natural progression of the arising of cittas. J: "...However, jhana had to have been achieved previously for vipassana (insight) to arise as the mind needs to know a pleasure not dependent on the senses." Scott: I'm afraid this makes little sense to me. Cittass' ekaggataa and pa~n~naa are separate cetasikas with separate characteristics. The former, being Universal, would arise with any citta which also is accompanied by pa~n~naa and would serve to assist pa~n~naa in focussing on whatever the given object of the moment happens to be. Show me in the texts where jhaana per se is a pre-requisite for pa~n~naa to arise. J: "...Noble Right Concentration is the four jhanas accompanied by the other factors of the path." Scott: Nope. Show me in the texts, if you please. I don't think this is correct. Sincerely, Scott. #80728 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 8:31 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Reply to your letter on terminology vs practice sarahprocter... Dear Friends, (*Ven P & Rob M) --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: >The discussions are open to > all-comers, including those who hold different views about the meaning > of > 'practice', and we try to see that any visitors get every chance to > discuss their views (some are reticent and need a little prodding to > speak > their mind;-)). .... S: Yes! Ven P had been asking us off-list to let him know anytime we would be visiting Bkk (in spite of any 'terminological' overdose!!),which is why he was the first person to know our dates. We look forward to seeing him and his meditator friend there and to hearing their questions to KS (and all) and further comments. A couple of other people have since made an enquiry after seeing the mention here. We'll be in Bkk from Friday 15th Feb - Sunday 24th Feb. Ajahn Sujin has kindly arranged extra sessions for us on Monday 18th (p.m.), Tuesday 19th (all day) and Wednesday 20th (p.m.). Anyone is very welcome at the sessions. (I personally find it helpful to make a note of questions to raise with KS and I know Azita and some others do too.) A short quote I heard this morning from our recent India trip when a Thai friend was asking about concentration and meditation: KS: "I think that we have to understand any term, like meditation, what it means. Othewise we take meditation to do something without knowing what meditation is." Metta, Sarah *p.s Ven Pannabahulo, you asked us off-list about Abhidhamma wall-charts for your new centre. I'm sorry, but I don't know of any. Rob M is the person who comes to mind as he uses a lot of visual aids in his Abhidhamma classes. Perhaps you can comment, Rob. ====== #80729 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 8:49 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] thoughts on practice lbidd2 Hi Nina, Nina: "I have some trouble with your word sameness. I rather think of sa~n~naa as marking the object each moment citta arises, it always accompanies citta. When citta experience a concept of a whole, sa~n~naa marks that. It arises and falls away immediately, together with the citta." Larry: What does 'marking the object' mean? I know the reference, perception marks an object like a carpenter marks a piece of wood. That makes very little sense to me. Can you explain it? When I perceive a man with a red hat how does perception mark that, and for what purpose? Does perception put a mark on the image? Larry #80730 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 9:08 pm Subject: Re: Anatta as a strategy buddhatrue Hi Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > Scott: Path moments are lokuttara, not lokiya. The Concentration that > rises with a moment of the Path is not jhaana, since jhaana is lokiya. James: Okay, this will have to be where the discussion ends. I don't agree with the concept of "path moments" to describe the Noble Eightfold Path. The Buddha didn't describe his path in terms of "moments" so I don't buy that theory. I'm afraid we have nothing more to discuss. Metta, James #80731 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 9:12 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] thoughts on practice lbidd2 Hi Howard, Howard: "Nina, I think that Larry's point may be the following: Sa~n~na has two phases - an initial marking phase at which a dhamma is conceptually/perceptually "tagged" and a subsequent comparison/recognition phase at which a "memory search" for a prior tag is made to match with the the current dhamma, and identify it. Recognition requires comparison, and a match requires at least some commonality of feature, which Larry refers to as "sameness". (Note that the Latin roots for 'identify' are the words for "same" and "make".) But, Larry, having a common feature, or even many common features, doesn't imply anything with regard to permanence. For example, at one moment there is a particular odor; later there is the same sort of odor, but differing slightly perhaps in experiential "flavor" and/or in intensity, and certainly differing in terms of its causes and conditions and related dhammas at the time of occurrence, yet similar enough for someone to say "It's the same thing I smelled yesterday." For example, we smelled banana yesterday morning and again today, and we "say" that it's the same smell. Of course, it isn't literally the same." Larry: It seems to me that a"tag" is actually an element of a complex phenomenon that is taken as a sign of that phenomenon. For example, the appearance of a person is taken as a sign of that person. As for sameness and permanence, what is impermanence if not merely difference. Granted, we don't think that the fragrance of two roses being the same means there is only one rose. But there are particular little details of a person's appearance that tell us this is the same person, even after 50 or 60 years. Don't I seem the same to you even in this email? If I didn't seem the same, if I seemed like a completely different person, or like a tree or an elephant, there would be a breakdown of recognition. Larry #80732 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 9:46 pm Subject: Re: Anatta as a strategy scottduncan2 Dear James, Thanks for the reply: James: "Okay, this will have to be where the discussion ends. I don't agree with the concept of 'path moments' to describe the Noble Eightfold Path. The Buddha didn't describe his path in terms of 'moments' so I don't buy that theory. I'm afraid we have nothing more to discuss." Scott: You bow out too easily, my good man. Can you direct me to any texts that back up your assertion above? I'll remind you of what is found in Visuddhimagga, to which you referred me in the first place: III 5 (iv) "HOW MANY KINDS OF CONCENTRATION ARE THERE? (1) First of all there is one kind with the characteristic of non-distraction. (2) Then it is of two kinds as access and absorption; (3) likewise as mundane and supramundane..." And regarding momentaneity: IV 99 "...When bliss is conceived and matured, it perfects the threefold concentration, that is momentary concentration, access concentration, and absorption concentration." VII 232 "(xi) Concentrating (samadaha.m) the [manner of] consciousness: evenly (sama.m) placing (aadahanto) the mind, evenly putting it on its object by means of the first jhaana and so on. Or alternatively, when, having entered upon those jhaanas and emerged from them, he compehends with insight the consciousness associated with the jhaana as liable to destruction and to fall, then at the actual time of insight momentary unification of the mind arises through the penetration of the characteristics [of impermanence, and so on]. Thus the words, 'He trains thus: "I shall breathe in...shall breathe out concentrating the [manner of] consciousness"', are said also of one who evenly places the mind, evenly puts it on its object by means of momentary unification of the mind arisen thus." XXIII 2. "Herein it should be understood that one of the benefits of the mundane development of understanding is the removal of the various defilements...Then one of the benefits of the supramundane development of understanding is the removal, at the path moment, of the various defilements beginning with the fetters. With dreadful thump the thunderbolt Annihilates the rock. The fire whipped by the driving wind Annihilates the wood. The radiant orb of solar flame Annihilates the dark. Developed understanding, too, Annihilates inveterate Defilements' netted overgrowth, The source of every woe. This blessing in this life A man himself may know." Scott: Buddhagosa fully endorses the notion of the path moment. No offence, James, but if you are going to direct me to a source, claiming that it represents your view and suggesting I study it, why not stand by what is written in it? Might we not continue to discuss this? I'd rather you didn't just run off. Try to make your points and back them up with textual references if you wish. Sincerely, Scott. #80733 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 11:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy sarahprocter... Dear Scott (& James), --- Scott Duncan wrote: > Jhaanas are lokiya and do not have Nibbaana as object; they have > concept for object, as far as I can tell. ... S: Yes, always concept as object (expect for the 2nd & 4th arupa jhanas) .... > Scott: The operative dhamma in vipassanaa is pa~n~naa. Insight is a > function of pa~n~naa. ... S: Just to butt in here....there are different kinds and degrees of panna. In the development of samatha (from the very beginning up to jhana cittas), panna is also essential. Without panna, there cannot be any bhavana at all. However, as I know you mean, it is not the panna which knows realities as realities, namas as namas, rupas as rupas, anatta. ... > J: "...Vipassana can occur during jhana (as when the Buddha gained the > Three Knowledges) or it can occur outside of jhana (as when Ananda > became enlightened)...." > > Scott: The assertion that pa~n~naa can arise during jhaana is not > correct as far as I understand this. ... S: Again, to nit-pick, panna cetasika always arises with jhana cittas (and any samatha bhavana cittas). However, as you're rightly stressing, no insight, no vipassana, no satipatthana panna during jhana. .... >Can you show this in the texts? > My reasoning is that jhaana has to have ended in order for pa~n~naa > to penetrate any of the dhammas which were the constituents of the > jhaana. Your statement suggests a misunderstanding of the natural > progression of the arising of cittas. ... S: Or to put it another way, the jhana citta(s) (which were accompanied by panna with the jhana kamatthana as object)have fallen away when the vipassana panna penetrates any of the dhammas which were the constituents of the jhana. Could be neater still.... .... <...> > Show me in the texts where jhaana per se is a pre-requisite for > pa~n~naa to arise. ... S: Panna is a pre-requisite for jhana to arise (or samatha bhavana) as stated. What you're asking for is a text which says attainment of jhana(s) is a pre-requisite for the development of vipassana/satipatthana. (Of course, in the second sense of jhana as lakkhanupanijjhana [as opposed to arammanupanijjhana], then as we read in the oft-quoted Dhp verse, the lokuttara cittas can be referred to as lokuttara jhana cittas.] Thanks to you both for the excellent and useful discussion, Metta, Sarah ===== #80734 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 11:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Reply to your letter on terminology vs practice nilovg Dear Venerable Pannabahulo and Sarah, I cannot come to Bgk in Febr. but will be there April 5, for my eightieth birthday. I would like to meet you then. Meanwhile, I am sure it is very useful to discuss different subjects such as meditation and I appreciate it when you give your opinions, and also others will appreciate that. Let us not put off discussions until Febr. With respect, Nina. Op 3-jan-2008, om 5:31 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > Ven P had been asking us off-list to let him know anytime we would > be visiting Bkk (in spite of any 'terminological' overdose!!),which > is why > he was the first person to know our dates. #80735 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 11:46 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] thoughts on practice nilovg Hi Howard, Thank you. I think of the woodcutters who make a mark on the trees so that these are recognized later on. This is a conventional way of explaining: first this then that. I feel that the function of sa~n~naa is more complicated. I would say: it marks and recognizes, and then these are only terms; marks and recognizes. I do not try to find out whether there is first and after or whether there is a difference between marking and remembering. I know it is complicated, involving many processes of cittas, but it is because of sa~n~naa that we can recognize people and things. And perhaps now we just think of concepts like people we recognize. However, even when seeing arises sa~n~naa marks colour. When receiving-consciousness arises, sa~n~naa marks again colour. When we consider cittas arising in processes sa~n~naa which marks or remembers the object accompanies each citta. Nina. Op 2-jan-2008, om 21:20 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Nina, I think that Larry's point may be the following: Sa~n~na has two > phases - an initial marking phase at which a dhamma is > conceptually/perceptually "tagged" and a subsequent comparison/ > recognition phase at which a "memory > search" for a prior tag is made to match with the the current > dhamma, and > identify it. #80736 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 11:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] thoughts on practice nilovg Hi Larry, see my post to Howard. Your example here is a concept of a whole. But we should also consider sa~n~naa marking colour etc. , whatever is experienced by citta just for a moment. If we consider this moment now we do not mind whether the word marking is used or recognizing. If we reason too much we shall get lost. We make things too complicated. Sa~n~naa marks the object experienced by citta and the accompanying cetasikas, just now. For what purpose? It is just the function of sa~n~naa, no other purpose. Nina. Op 3-jan-2008, om 5:49 heeft LBIDD@... het volgende geschreven: > What does 'marking the object' mean? I know the reference, > perception marks an object like a carpenter marks a piece of wood. > That > makes very little sense to me. Can you explain it? When I perceive > a man > with a red hat how does perception mark that, and for what purpose? > Does > perception put a mark on the image? #80737 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 12:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Reply to your letter on terminology vs practice sarahprocter... Dear Nina (& Ven P.), --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Meanwhile, I am sure it is very useful to discuss different subjects > such as meditation and I appreciate it when you give your opinions, > and also others will appreciate that. Let us not put off discussions > until Febr. ... S: Agreed! If you would like to pick up on any of the Dhamma topics in Ven P's last long and detailed letter to me, that would be helpful too as there are many good points for us all to consider further. The same applies to anyone else who'd care to join in. I'm referring to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/80682 I hope Ven P will meanwhile pursue any threads or introduce any new topics when he has time and health to do so. As you say, Nina, many appreciate hearing different opinions. A good suggestion for Ven P to also visit in April if he can. Metta, Sarah ======= #80738 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 12:18 am Subject: Re: Anatta as a strategy buddhatrue Hi Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > A man himself may know." > > Scott: Buddhagosa fully endorses the notion of the path moment. No > offence, James, but if you are going to direct me to a source, > claiming that it represents your view and suggesting I study it, why > not stand by what is written in it? James: Oh, sorry, I guess I gave you the wrong impression about that. I don't agree with everything stated in the Vism. I especially don't agree with some aspects of the last section on "Understanding". But there is much more that I do agree with than disagree with. > > Might we not continue to discuss this? I'd rather you didn't just run > off. Try to make your points and back them up with textual references > if you wish. James: I'm sorry if I disappoint you but there really isn't much to say. The Buddha taught the Noble Eightfold Path in rather conventional terms (i.e. Right Speech, Right Employment, Right Effort, etc.) and he didn't describe the path in terms of 'path moments' which arise to eradicate defilements. He taught that it is discernment which eradicates defilements. However, I know that the commentaries state differently, so whatever. If you want to believe the commentaries I am not going to try to convince you not to. I have tried that in the past and it doesn't work. Like, for example, Nina recently wrote that she believes the Buddha taught Right Concentration to mean different things- but I don't believe that. It only means one thing: the jhanas. So, we are at an impasse: nothing more to discuss. You have your beliefs and I have mine. Good luck to both of us! :-) > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > Metta, James #80739 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 12:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] again: thoughts on practice nilovg Hi Larry and Howard, When you notice the concept of a whole, such as a man with a red hat, this is recognized because of former experiences, but also, it is marked again so that similar images will be recognized again, even a next moment. Thus, I am disinclined to separate marking and recognizing. These are mere terms to indicate the complicated operation of sa~n~naa. Nina. Op 3-jan-2008, om 5:49 heeft LBIDD@... het volgende geschreven: > What does 'marking the object' mean? #80740 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 1:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Reply to your letter on terminology vs practice nilovg Dear Sarah (and Venerable Pannabahulo), Op 3-jan-2008, om 9:12 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > If you would like to pick up on any of the Dhamma topics in Ven > P's last long and detailed letter to me, that would be helpful too as > there are many good points for us all to consider further. The same > applies to anyone else who'd care to join in. --------- N: Since our list is very busy it would be helpful to select one topic at a time, so that posts are not long. It would be best for me, since I am overburdened with work at the moment. Nina. #80741 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 1:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy nilovg Hi James, I would like to pursue more the momentary aspect of dhammas with regard to kusala and akusala, good and evil deeds. I believe these aspects can be verified in our daily life. Why not think of example of daily life? We can leave the texts and return to these later on. But it depends on your interest. Nina. Op 3-jan-2008, om 9:18 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > So, we are at an impasse: nothing more to discuss. > You have your beliefs and I have mine. Good luck to both of us! :- #80742 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 5:29 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (73) nichiconn Dear Friends, Part 1 of 52 16. Mahaanipaato 1. Sumedhaatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa XVI. The Great Section [of Verses] 1. The commentary on the verses of Therii Sumedhaa Mahaanipaate mantaavatiyaa nagareti-aadikaa sumedhaaya theriyaa gaathaa. Ayampi purimabuddhesu kataadhikaaraa tattha tattha bhave viva.t.tuupanissaya.m kusala.m upacinantii, sakkacca.m vimokkhasambhaare sambhaarentii ko.naagamanassa bhagavato kaale kulagehe nibbattitvaa vi~n~nuta.m patvaa, attano sakhiihi kuladhiitaahi saddhi.m ekajjhaasayaa hutvaa mahanta.m aaraama.m kaaretvaa buddhappamukhassa bhikkhusa"nghassa niyyaadesi. In the great section [of verses], the verses beginning In the city of Mantaavatii are Therii Sumedhaa's. She too performed meritorious deeds under previous Buddhas and accumulated good [actions] in various lives as [her] basis for release. She thoroughly accumulated the [prerequisite] elements of complete release. At the time of the Blessed One Ko.naagamana, whe was born in the home of a good family. When she came of age, of one accord with her friends, the daughters of good families, a large park was prepared and given to the Order of the Bhikkhus with the Buddha at its head. RD: SHE too, having made her resolve under former Buddhas, and heaping up good of age-enduring efficacy in this and that rebirth, thoroughly preparing the conditions of emancipation, was born, when Ko.naagamana was Buddha, in a clansman's family. When she was of age, she and her friends, clansmen's daughters, agreed together to have a great park made, and handed it over to the Buddha and his Order. Saa tena pu~n~nakammena kaayassa bhedaa taavati.msa.m upagacchi. Tattha yaavataayuka.m dibbasampatti.m anubhavitvaa tato cutaa yaamesu upapajji. Tato cutaa tusitesu, tato cutaa nimmaanaratiisu, tato cutaa paranimmitavasavattiisuuti anukkamena pa~ncasu kaamasaggesu uppajjitvaa tattha tattha devaraajuuna.m mahesii hutvaa tato cutaa kassapassa bhagavato kaale mahaavibhavassa se.t.thino dhiitaa hutvaa anukkamena vi~n~nuta.m patvaa saasane abhippasannaa hutvaa ratanattaya.m uddissa u.laarapu~n~nakamma.m akaasi. When she died, she went to the Taavati.msa realm. She lived out her term there, enjoying divine attainments. When she died there, she arose in the Yaama realm. When she died there, she arose in the Tusita realm. When she died there, [she arose] in the Nimmaanarati realm. When she died there, [she arose] in the Paranimmita-Vassavatti realm. In due course, she arose in the five heavens of the sensual spheres as the chief queen of the various deva kings. When she died there, at the time of the Blessed One Kassapa, she became the daughter of a very rich merchant. In due course, she came of age, gained faith in his teaching, and made great merit with regard to the triple gem. RD: Through the merit of that act, she was reborn in the heaven of the Three-and-Thirty. After a glorious period there, she arose once more among the Yaama gods, then among the Blissful gods, then among the Happy Creators, then among the Disposers of others' creations, *410 and there became Queen of the King of the gods. Reborn thereafter, when Kassapa was Buddha, as the daughter of a wealthy citizen, she acquired splendid merit as a lay-believer, *410 See Ps. lxi., n. Tattha yaavajiiva.m dhammuupajiivinii kusaladhammanirataa hutvaa tato cutaa taavati.msesu nibbattitvaa aparaapara.m sugatiisuyeva sa.msarantii, imasmi.m buddhuppaade mantaavatiinagare ko~ncassa naama ra~n~no dhiitaa hutvaa nibbatti. Tassaa maataapitaro sumedhaati naama.m aka.msu. Ta.m anukkamena vuddhippattavayappattakaale maataapitaro "vaara.navatiinagare anikarattassa naama ra~n~no dassaamaa"ti sammantesu.m. She lived out her term there, dependent on the Doctrine and attached to wholesome states. When she died there, she was born in the Taavati.msa realm. She journeyed on [being born] again and again in happy existences. She journeyed on [being born] again and again in happy existences. In this Buddha era, she was born as the daughter of King Ko~nca in the city of Mantaavatii. Her mother and father gave her the name Sumedhaa. In due course, when she grew up and came of age, her mother and father consulted together, saying, "Let us give her [in marriage] to King Anikaratta in the city of Vaara.navatii." RD: winning another rebirth among the gods of the Three-and-Thirty. Finally reborn, in this Buddha-age, at the city of Mantaavatii, as the daughter of King Ko~nca, *411 she was named Sumedhaa. And when she was come to years of discretion, her mother and father agreed to let Anikaratta, the Raaja of Vaara.navatii, see her. *411 The two Kings and their capitals are all names unknown in Indian records. Vaara.navatii = having elephants, or ramparts. Ko~nca = heron. == to be continued, connie #80743 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 5:29 am Subject: Perfections Corner (72) nichiconn Dear All, http://www.zolag.co.uk/ - The Perfections Leading to Enlightenment by Sujin Boriharnwanaket; translated by Nina van Gorkom. Chapter 9: The Perfection of Loving-kindness (continued) We read in the "Atthasaalinii " about the four brahmavihaaras ((Book I, Part V, Ch. XIII, Divine States, 193) : "...love (mettaa) has the characteristic of being a procedure of modes of beneficence; the function or property of bringing good; the manifestation or effect of taking hatred away; the proximate cause of seeing the lovableness of beings. Its consummation (success) is the quieting of ill-will; its failure is the production of lust." We should remember that kusala and akusala can be similar in appearance. Therefore, we should often realize the characteristics of realities so that we shall know whether we develop kusala or whether akusala arises. We read about compassion: "Pity (compassion) has the characteristic of evolving the mode of removing pain; the property of not being able to bear [seeing] others suffer; the manifestation of kindness; the proximate cause of seeing the need of those overcome by pain. Its consummation is the quieting of cruelty; its failure is the production of sorrow." We read about sympathetic joy: "Sympathy has the characteristic of gladness; its property is the absence of envying; its manifestation is the destruction of disaffection (discontentment); its proximate cause is seeing the prosperous state of other beings. Its consummation is the quieting of dislike; its failure is the production of derision (fun)." It is difficult to distinguish between sympathetic joy and attachment. When we are thrilled and greatly rejoice in someone else's gain, honour and praise, there may be lobha and not sympathetic joy. We read about equanimity: "Equanimity has the characteristic of evolving the mode of neutrality as regards beings; its function is seeing equality in beings; its manifestation is quieting both aversion and attachment; its proximate cause is seeing the heritage of the occurring kamma as 'beings are the property of their kamma'. By its influence they will attain to pleasure, or be free from pain, or not fall from the prosperity already acquired. Its consummation is the quieting of aversion and of attachment; its failure is the production of an unintelligent indifference which is based on the home life." Unintelligent indifference means indifference based on ignorance, moha. When we have ignorance, we do not know realities as they are, and then we cannot understand kamma, which produces its appropriate result. With regard to the expression about equanimity "based on the home life", this means, based on visible object, sound, odour, flavour and tangible object, thus, the sense objects. When we see what appears through the eyes and we are indifferent, we do not seem to have attachment or aversion, but we should not believe that that is necessarily kusala. It is indifference "based on the home life" because at such moments we do not know the truth. We cannot abandon defilements if we do not listen to the Dhamma and if we do not understand it; if there is no pa~n~naa which knows the characteristics of realities as they really are. There is indifference which is the near enemy {*} of the brahmavihaara of equanimity when we do not consider what is right and what is wrong, and we do not investigate the true nature of the realities that are appearing. {*} Visuddhimagga IX, 98-101 mentions the near enemies and the far enemies of the divine abidings. The far enemies of the brahmavihaaras are their opposites and the near enemies are qualities which seem to be the brahma vihaaras but which are in reality akusala. They seem to be similar to the brahmavihaaras and one could erroneously take them for the brahmavihaaras. In the case of equanimity, the near enemy is ignorance based on the home life, "since both share in ignoring faults and virtues". The Visuddhimagga explains that when seeing visible object, "equanimity arises in the foolish infatuated, ordinary man..." This is not the divine abiding of equanimity which is even mindedness. === to be continued, connie #80744 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 12:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] thoughts on practice upasaka_howard Hi, Larry (and Nina) - In a message dated 1/2/2008 11:49:41 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@... writes: Hi Nina, Nina: "I have some trouble with your word sameness. I rather think of sa~n~naa as marking the object each moment citta arises, it always accompanies citta. When citta experience a concept of a whole, sa~n~naa marks that. It arises and falls away immediately, together with the citta." Larry: What does 'marking the object' mean? I know the reference, perception marks an object like a carpenter marks a piece of wood. That makes very little sense to me. Can you explain it? When I perceive a man with a red hat how does perception mark that, and for what purpose? Does perception put a mark on the image? Larry =============================== As I interpret it, the marking of the dhamma is a mental event, a kind of "noting" that enables the processes of recollection and comparison, and, by that means, the future recognition of similar dhammas. The marking, just as the future recognizing conditioned by it, is an "internal" operation. With metta, Howard #80745 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 12:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] thoughts on practice upasaka_howard Hi, Larry - In a message dated 1/3/2008 12:12:23 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@... writes: Hi Howard, Howard: "Nina, I think that Larry's point may be the following: Sa~n~na has two phases - an initial marking phase at which a dhamma is conceptually/perceptually "tagged" and a subsequent comparison/recognition phase at which a "memory search" for a prior tag is made to match with the the current dhamma, and identify it. Recognition requires comparison, and a match requires at least some commonality of feature, which Larry refers to as "sameness". (Note that the Latin roots for 'identify' are the words for "same" and "make".) But, Larry, having a common feature, or even many common features, doesn't imply anything with regard to permanence. For example, at one moment there is a particular odor; later there is the same sort of odor, but differing slightly perhaps in experiential "flavor" and/or in intensity, and certainly differing in terms of its causes and conditions and related dhammas at the time of occurrence, yet similar enough for someone to say "It's the same thing I smelled yesterday." For example, we smelled banana yesterday morning and again today, and we "say" that it's the same smell. Of course, it isn't literally the same." Larry: It seems to me that a"tag" is actually an element of a complex phenomenon that is taken as a sign of that phenomenon. ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: That may be so, Larry. This perspective describes the formation of a mental construct from the object that incorporates one or more qualities of it - a construct that is then "stored" (actually a stream of constructs passed forward). I won't say that's not how it works. It may well work in that way. But I tend to prefer a perspective of action-at-a-distance - of this/that conditionality, with the "marking" being a mental event of noting that, right then and there, changes mental capabilities, enabling future recollection, comparison, and recognition. ----------------------------------------------------- For example, the appearance of a person is taken as a sign of that person. As for sameness and permanence, what is impermanence if not merely difference. Granted, we don't think that the fragrance of two roses being the same means there is only one rose. But there are particular little details of a person's appearance that tell us this is the same person, even after 50 or 60 years. -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Of course, similarity of qualities and patterns of characteristics. ------------------------------------------------------- Don't I seem the same to you even in this email? If I didn't seem the same, if I seemed like a completely different person, or like a tree or an elephant, there would be a breakdown of recognition. -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: No argument at all from me on this, Larry. ------------------------------------------------------ Larry =========================== With metta, Howard #80746 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 1:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Reply to your letter on terminology vs practice upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 1/3/2008 2:34:37 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Dear Venerable Pannabahulo and Sarah, I cannot come to Bgk in Febr. but will be there April 5, for my eightieth birthday. I would like to meet you then. Meanwhile, I am sure it is very useful to discuss different subjects such as meditation and I appreciate it when you give your opinions, and also others will appreciate that. Let us not put off discussions until Febr. With respect, Nina. ================================= What is the date of your birthday. (Mine's in April also. So, I'm curious. ;-) With metta, Howard #80747 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 1:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] again: thoughts on practice upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Larry) - In a message dated 1/3/2008 3:24:41 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Larry and Howard, When you notice the concept of a whole, such as a man with a red hat, this is recognized because of former experiences, but also, it is marked again so that similar images will be recognized again, even a next moment. Thus, I am disinclined to separate marking and recognizing. These are mere terms to indicate the complicated operation of sa~n~naa. Nina. ================================= I think, indeed, that the recognition phase is also a (re-) marking phase, but there has to be some sort of recollection & comparison aspect to the recognition phase as well - something additional, it seems to me. With metta, Howard #80748 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 6:26 am Subject: Re: Anatta as a strategy scottduncan2 Dear James, Thanks for the reply: J: "...Good luck to both of us! :-)" Scott: See you next time. Sincerely, Scott. #80749 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 6:33 am Subject: Lessons in Detachment, Ch 1, no 1. nilovg Dear friends, Pilgrimage in India, October/November 2004. Lessons in Detachment. Chapter 1. The Holy Places. “Abandon evil, O monks! One can abandon evil, O monks!If it were impossible to abandon evil, I would not ask you to do so. But as it can be done, therefore I say ‘Abandon evil!’ If this abandoning of evil would bring harm and suffering, I would not ask you to abandon it. But as the abandoning of evil brings weal and happiness, therefore I say, ‘abandon evil!’ Cultivate the good, O monks! One can cultivate what is good, O monks. If it were impossible to cultivate the good, I would not ask you to do so. But as it can be done, therefore I say, ‘Cultivate the good!’ If this cultivation of the good would bring harm and suffering, I would not ask you to cultivate it. But as the cultivation of the good brings weal and happiness, therefore I say, ‘Cultivate the good!’ ” (Gradual Sayings Book of the twos, II, 9, translated by Ven. Nyanaponika, Wheel 155-158.) These compassionate words of the Buddha show that also in his lifetime people must have struggled with the depth and complexity of his teachings and had to be encouraged on the right path. How much more so in our days! During one of our long and strenuous bus rides through India Lodewijk recited this sutta to our friends. Lodewijk and I started our pilgrimage in New Delhi where we visited Kuru, the place where the Buddha preached the Satipaììhåna Sutta. We climbed up to the rocks to look at the stone with Ashoka's inscription. Here I read aloud to Lodewijk the Satipatthåna Sutta. Before, this place was a heap of dirt and public toilet, but our friend S.K. Singh, former secretary of foreign affairs, had it restored and fenced in. Trees were planted and now it has become a peaceful place where one can reflect on the Satipatthåna Sutta. We visited all the holy places with Acharn Sujin and a large group of friends, Thai and foreign. We went to Lumbini, where the Buddha was born, and each time we are impressed by the pillar erected by King Asoka, 249 B.C. which commemorates: “Here Sakyåmuní (the sage of the Sakyan clan) was born”. This pillar, standing there unshakable through the centuries, symbolizes confidence in the Buddha’s teachings. It is a vivid reminder of the Buddha’s birth. If he had not been born and become the Sammåsambuddha we would be ignorant of realities. We would not know about akusala and kusala, about the way to develop understanding of realities. We went to Bodhgaya where the Buddha attained enlightenment, to Saranath where he held his first sermon, and to Kusinåra where he passed finally away. We also visited Såvatthí where the Buddha spent many rainy seasons and Vesålí where Mahåpajåpatí was ordained as the first bhikkhuní. We visited Råjagaha where we climbed the Vultures’ Peak, and the Bamboo Grove where he pronounced the Patimokkha, the Rules of Discipline for the monks. Here the bhikkhu who accompanied us chanted part of the Patimokkha proclaimed here and explained that therefore the first monastery was actually established there. We circumambulated with candles the Stupa that marked the different places and in Bodhgaya we went around the Bodhi tree, and at all these places we recollected the Buddha’s great compassion for us. ****** Nina. #80750 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 6:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Reply to your letter on terminology vs practice nilovg Hi Howard, No, yours is about 26, mine, the fifth. Are also a ram, persevering, not giving up? Azita wrote to me that she changes her other engagement with her daughter so that she can come April five to Bgk, very sweet of her. Nina. Op 3-jan-2008, om 15:01 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > What is the date of your birthday. (Mine's in April also. So, I'm > curious. ;-) #80751 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 6:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] again: thoughts on practice nilovg Hi Howard, Op 3-jan-2008, om 15:05 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > I think, indeed, that the recognition phase is also a (re-) marking > phase, but there has to be some sort of recollection & comparison > aspect to the > recognition phase as well - something additional, it seems to me. ------ N: That is why I like to be careful saying marking AND recognition, or shall we say: re-marking? There is marking and marking again, our whole life. Nina. #80752 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 2:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Reply to your letter on terminology vs practice upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 1/3/2008 9:38:02 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, No, yours is about 26, mine, the fifth. ---------------------------------------- Howard: Wow, you are GOOD! :-) My birthday is the 25th. -------------------------------------- Are also a ram, persevering, not giving up? ---------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, Taurus. I like to think "perservering" and "intransigent" of myself, though some might just say "stubborn" and "obstinate"! LOLOL! --------------------------------------- Azita wrote to me that she changes her other engagement with her daughter so that she can come April five to Bgk, very sweet of her. ----------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, lovely. :-) -------------------------------------- Nina. ======================= With metta, Howard #80753 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 7:27 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, Thanks for the reply (good stuff to look into): S: "Yes, always concept as object (expect for the 2nd & 4th arupa jhanas)" Scott: What are the objects of these jhaanas? I read in Vibha"nga: "610. 'Infinite is consciousness' means: He pays attention to and expands infinitely the consciousness (consciousness is given in the accusative case, not instrumental as in text. See Visudhhimagga, para. 282) which touched that same space. Therefore it is called 'infinite is consciousness'. 611. 'State of infinity of consciousness' means: The consciousness and mental concomitant states of one who has attained to, who is possessed of, who in this world dwells in the pleasure of the state of infinity of consciousness... 620. 'The state of neither perception nor non-perception' means: The consciousness and mental concomitant states of one who has attained to, who is possessed of, who in this world dwells in the pleasure of the state of neither perception nor non-perception." Scott: So, citta and cetasika are the objects of these two aruupa jhaanas? S: "Just to butt in here....there are different kinds and degrees of panna. In the development of samatha (from the very beginning up to jhana cittas), panna is also essential. Without panna, there cannot be any bhavana at all. However, as I know you mean, it is not the panna which knows realities as realities, namas as namas, rupas as rupas, anatta." Scott: Can you say more of the role of pa~n~naa in the development of samatha? I'd guess that it would be pa~n~naa of some degree that would serve the function of knowing, at any given time, the consciousness and concomitant mental states that constitute the particular jhaana so that jhaana is known as jhaana and not something else. And do you mean 'kusala' bhaavanaa when you implicate pa~n~naa with bhaavanaa? S: "Again, to nit-pick, panna cetasika always arises with jhana cittas (and any samatha bhavana cittas). However, as you're rightly stressing, no insight, no vipassana, no satipatthana panna during jhana." Scott: Again, can you please clarify the role of pa~n~naa as it arises with jhaana cittas? I think you start this below... S: "Or to put it another way, the jhana citta(s) (which were accompanied by panna with the jhana kamatthana as object)have fallen away when the vipassana panna penetrates any of the dhammas which were the constituents of the jhana." Scott: What is 'kamaa.t.thanaa'? Again, does this refer to pa~n~naa which functions to know the characteristics of the jhaana cittas? Or the characteristic of the jhaana kamatthana? And then to another function of pa~n~naa which is to penetrate any of these dhammas as to one of the three characteristics (anicca, dukkha, anatta)? S: "Panna is a pre-requisite for jhana to arise (or samatha bhavana) as stated. What you're asking for is a text which says attainment of jhana(s) is a pre-requisite for the development of vipassana/satipatthana. (Of course, in the second sense of jhana as lakkhanupanijjhana [as opposed to arammanupanijjhana], then as we read in the oft-quoted Dhp verse, the lokuttara cittas can be referred to as lokuttara jhana cittas.]" Scott: Whoa. Heavy. And good. Might I have a source for 'lakkhanupanijjhana' and 'arammanupanijjhana'? I think this means differentiation of characteristic from object, but I'm not totally sure here. Sincerely, Scott. #80754 From: "glenjohnann" Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 8:12 am Subject: Re: Ignorance......wrong concentration glenjohnann --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > " 'Monks, when ignorance (avijjaa) leads the way, by the reaching of > states unprofitable (akusala), shamelessness (ahiri) and recklessness > (anottappa) follow in its train. In one who is swayed by ignorance and is > void of sense of wrong view (micchaa di.t.thi) springs up. Sarah, is there a word missing in the last sentence above? Being swayed by ignorance and "void of wrong view" do not seem compatible. I don't have a copy of the text from which you quote, and am interested in what may be missing. Alternatively, what am I missing? Ann #80755 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 3:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ignorance......wrong concentration upasaka_howard Hi, Ann (and Sarah) - In a message dated 1/3/2008 11:13:07 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, glenjohnann@... writes: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > " 'Monks, when ignorance (avijjaa) leads the way, by the reaching of > states unprofitable (akusala), shamelessness (ahiri) and recklessness > (anottappa) follow in its train. In one who is swayed by ignorance and is > void of sense of wrong view (micchaa di.t.thi) springs up. Sarah, is there a word missing in the last sentence above? Being swayed by ignorance and "void of wrong view" do not seem compatible. I don't have a copy of the text from which you quote, and am interested in what may be missing. Alternatively, what am I missing? Ann =========================== Me butting in: It's not "void of wrong view" but "void of SENSE [emphasis mine] of wrong view". But there still seems to be something wrong with the sentence. As it is, it doesn't properly parse. A strong possibility suggested by the contrasting next paragraph is that the 'of' in the sentence is an error and should be replaced by a comma so that the sentence reads as follows: "In one who is swayed by ignorance and is void of sense, wrong view (micchaa di.t.thi) springs up." I suspect this is what should be there. [The corresponding sentence, with parallel structure, in the next paragraph is as follows: "In one who is swayed by knowledge and has good sense, right view (sammaa di.t.thi) springs up."] With metta, Howard #80756 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 9:23 am Subject: Re: Ignorance......wrong concentration scottduncan2 Dear Ann, Sarah, Howard, A: "Sarah, is there a word missing in the last sentence above? Being swayed by ignorance and "void of wrong view" do not seem compatible. I don't have a copy of the text from which you quote, and am interested in what may be missing. Alternatively, what am I missing?" Here's another translation: file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Scott/Desktop/tipitaka/tipitaka/index.html "105. Bhikkhus, ignorance is foremost for demeritorious things followed by lack of shame and lack of remorse. Bhikkhus, the ignorant one, who does not know, has wrong view. One with wrong view, has wrong thoughts. One with wrong thoughts has wrong words. One with wrong words has wrong activity. One with wrong activity has a wrong livelihood, One with a wrong livelihood has wrong endeavour. One with wrong endeavour has wrong mindfulness. One with wrong mindfulness has wrong concentration. One with wrong concentration has wrong knowledge and one with wrong knowledge has wrong release." [Vijjaa sutta.m Avijjaa bhikkhave pubba"ngamaa akusalaana.m dhammaana.m samaapattiyaa. Anvadeva ahirika.m anottappa.m. Avijjaagatassa bhikkhave aviddasuno micchaadi.t.thi pahoti. Micchaadi.t.thikassa micchaasa"nkappo pahoti. Micchaa sa"nkappassa micchaavaacaa pahoti. Micchaavaacassa micchaakammanto pahoti. Micchaa kammantatassa micchaa aajiivo pahoti. Micchaa aajiivassa micchaavaayaamo pahoti. Micchaa vaayaamassa micchaasati pahoti. Micchaa satissa micchaasamaadhi pahoti. Micchaa samaadhissa micchaa~nà .na.m pahoti. Micchaa~naa.nissa micchaavimutti pahoti.] Sincerely, Scott. #80757 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 9:24 am Subject: Re: Ignorance......wrong concentration scottduncan2 file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Scott/Desktop/tipitaka/tipitaka/index.html Sorry, the link is inoperative. Scott. #80758 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 9:46 am Subject: Re: Ignorance......wrong concentration scottduncan2 http://www.mettanet.org/tipitaka/index.html This one should work. S. #80759 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 11:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy nilovg Dear Scott, may I butt in, since the text is in my files: Papa~ncasuudanii, Atthk to the Sallekhasutta (M.N. I,8): Jhaayathaa ti. aaramma.nuupanijjhaanena a.t.thati.msaaramma.naahi (thirtyeight objects of samatha), lakkha.nuupanijjhaanena ca aniccaadito (beginning with aniccaa) khandhaayatanaadiini upanijjhaayatha. Samatha~n ca vipassana~ca va.d.dhetaa(develop) ti vutta.m hoti. Maa pamaadatthaati maapamajjittha. Nina. Op 3-jan-2008, om 16:27 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: > Might I have a source for > 'lakkhanupanijjhana' and 'arammanupanijjhana'? I think this means > differentiation of characteristic from object, but I'm not totally > sure here. #80760 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 1:10 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ignorance......wrong concentration sarahprocter... Hi Ann, Howard, Scott & all, --- glenjohnann wrote: >In one who is swayed by ignorance > and is > > void of sense of wrong view (micchaa di.t.thi) springs up. > > > Sarah, is there a word missing in the last sentence above? Being > swayed by ignorance and "void of wrong view" do not seem compatible. .... S: Well-spotted and thanks for this. Actually it's not a word missing but a word extra. A typo. The text reads: "In one who is swayed by ignorance and is void of sense wrong view springs up." I would have put a comma after 'void of sense' for clarity. Later it has, "In one who is swayed by knowledge and has good sense, right view springs up." As usual, typing too quickly!! Metta, Sarah ======== #80761 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 10:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ignorance......wrong concentration upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 1/3/2008 4:10:56 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Hi Ann, Howard, Scott & all, --- glenjohnann wrote: >In one who is swayed by ignorance > and is > > void of sense of wrong view (micchaa di.t.thi) springs up. > > > Sarah, is there a word missing in the last sentence above? Being > swayed by ignorance and "void of wrong view" do not seem compatible. .... S: Well-spotted and thanks for this. Actually it's not a word missing but a word extra. A typo. The text reads: "In one who is swayed by ignorance and is void of sense wrong view springs up." I would have put a comma after 'void of sense' for clarity. Later it has, "In one who is swayed by knowledge and has good sense, right view springs up." As usual, typing too quickly!! Metta, Sarah =============================== Yes, that's exactly what I said. :-) With metta, Howard #80762 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 4:25 pm Subject: Re: Anatta as a strategy buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi James, > I would like to pursue more the momentary aspect of dhammas with > regard to kusala and akusala, good and evil deeds. I believe these > aspects can be verified in our daily life. Why not think of example > of daily life? We can leave the texts and return to these later on. > But it depends on your interest. An example in daily life? I'm not sure if I could do that as the mind changes so quickly. As the Buddha said, there is nothing to compare to how quickly the mind changes. Perhaps you could give me an example and then I would know what you mean. Metta, James #80763 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 7:05 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ignorance......wrong concentration sarahprocter... Hi Howard, --- upasaka@... wrote: >S: The text reads: > > "In one who is swayed by ignorance and is void of sense wrong view > springs > up." I would have put a comma after 'void of sense' for clarity. Later > it > has, "In one who is swayed by knowledge and has good sense, right view > springs up." > > As usual, typing too quickly!! ... > =============================== >H: Yes, that's exactly what I said. :-) ... S: Good job! Actually, I hadn't read your message when I responded on my way out this morning at 5.15 a.m.! Feel free to correct any typos in the text any time!! Metta, Sarah ======== #80764 From: LBIDD@... Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 8:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] thoughts on practice lbidd2 Hi Nina and Howard, I have been meditating on carpenters and their markings and one possible explanation is that when a carpenter makes a mark on a piece of wood he is saying this measurement is the same as that measurement. Then he cuts the wood at that mark so it fits. Based on that scenario I would say "marking the object" is the moment of recognition, saying this is the same as that. It's a bit of a stretch, but I'll put it out there as a possibility. Larry #80765 From: LBIDD@... Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 8:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] thoughts on practice lbidd2 Hi Howard, Larry: "If I didn't seem the same, if I seemed like a completely different person, or like a tree or an elephant, there would be a breakdown of recognition." Howard: "No argument at all from me on this, Larry." Larry: That's the crux of my question. Is sameness or similarity problematic as an assumption of at least a degree of permanence? And if so, how how can insight see through that without destroying recognition? Maybe the only problem is clinging. So recognition without clinging isn't a problem even if there is a slightly abstruse assumption of permanence. That's one solution. Larry #80766 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 3:36 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ignorance......wrong concentration upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 1/3/2008 10:05:35 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: H: Yes, that's exactly what I said. :-) ... S: Good job! Actually, I hadn't read your message when I responded on my way out this morning at 5.15 a.m.! Feel free to correct any typos in the text any time!! -------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Only after I've practiced the Dhamma long & hard & well enough NOT to feel the need to point out my being right about something!! :-( Ah, well! Still quite human, I am! You know? I could *feel* the egotism as I wrote you, I *knew* it was ego writing, and *still* I wrote it! What a hopeless, credit-seeking lot we humans are - at least this one called "Howard" is! (Well, at least it's better having caught it than being oblivious! ;-) --------------------------------------------------------- Metta, Sarah ============================== With metta, Howard #80767 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 4:01 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] thoughts on practice upasaka_howard Hi, Larry - In a message dated 1/3/2008 11:34:51 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@... writes: Hi Howard, Larry: "If I didn't seem the same, if I seemed like a completely different person, or like a tree or an elephant, there would be a breakdown of recognition." Howard: "No argument at all from me on this, Larry." Larry: That's the crux of my question. Is sameness or similarity problematic as an assumption of at least a degree of permanence? ---------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: No. Permanence implies unending continuation of some phenomenon. The coldness I felt yesterday is not the coldness I feel even today. In fact, there wasn't even the very same coldness felt at 10:01 a.m. yesterday as at 10:00 a.m yesterday. Being in the same category is not identity. ---------------------------------------------------------------- And if so, how how can insight see through that without destroying recognition? ---------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Recognition is categorization on the basis of one or more qualities. Being in the same category, for example that of "cold", doesn't make two phenomena one and the same. If they differ in any way, for example intensity, or even in terms of their relation to other phenomena, present and past, that is enough to make them not the very same phenomenon. The seeing that is occurring right now is not the same seeing that occurred yesterday at "the same time." There was nothing that continued. Yesterday's seeing didn't become today's. Permanence doesn't enter into this at all; in fact, not much in the way of continuation enters into it. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Maybe the only problem is clinging. So recognition without clinging isn't a problem even if there is a slightly abstruse assumption of permanence. That's one solution. ---------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Commonality of category has nothing at all to do with permanence or even continuation. ---------------------------------------------------------------- Larry =============================== With metta, Howard #80768 From: LBIDD@... Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 9:45 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] thoughts on practice lbidd2 Hi Howard, Howard: "Commonality of category has nothing at all to do with permanence or even continuation." Larry: So saying this now is the same as that then doesn't imply permanence? Larry #80769 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 10:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ignorance......wrong concentration sarahprocter... Hi, Howard, --- upasaka@... wrote: > Feel free to correct any typos in the text any time!! > -------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Only after I've practiced the Dhamma long & hard & well enough NOT > to > feel the need to point out my being right about something!! :-( > Ah, well! Still quite human, I am! > You know? I could *feel* the egotism as I wrote you, I *knew* it > was ego > writing, and *still* I wrote it! What a hopeless, credit-seeking lot we > > humans are - at least this one called "Howard" is! (Well, at least it's > better > having caught it than being oblivious! ;-) .... S: :-)) So very common.... as Larry mentioned, conceit arrising very, very often along with other akusala pals! As you say, at least there's some knowledge and sincerity about it. The 'banner' again - looking for acknowledgement, concerned if anyone has read something we've written, 'I *knew* it!, on and on.... Even when we keep quiet, lurkers, too!! Thanks for reminding us all about these common dhammas. Metta, Sarah ======= #80770 From: LBIDD@... Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 10:35 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] thoughts on practice lbidd2 Hi Howard and Nina, The answer is simpler than I thought. Even recognition that arises with wisdom says this is the same as that. Recognition couldn't work any other way. But wisdom, seeing things as they are, says this and that are not the same. Thanks, Howard, for pointing out that we know that no two coldnesses are the same. Larry #80771 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 10:53 pm Subject: Re: Ignorance......wrong concentration buddhatrue Hi Howard, Nina, and All, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Sarah - > > In a message dated 1/3/2008 10:05:35 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > > H: Yes, that's exactly what I said. :-) > ... > S: Good job! Actually, I hadn't read your message when I responded on my > way out this morning at 5.15 a.m.! > > Feel free to correct any typos in the text any time!! > -------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Only after I've practiced the Dhamma long & hard & well enough NOT to > feel the need to point out my being right about something!! :-( > Ah, well! Still quite human, I am! > You know? I could *feel* the egotism as I wrote you, I *knew* it was ego > writing, and *still* I wrote it! What a hopeless, credit-seeking lot we > humans are - at least this one called "Howard" is! (Well, at least it's better > having caught it than being oblivious! ;-) > --------------------------------------------------------- This post of confession/apology makes me think of Nina's recent post to me. She asked me to give some examples of being aware of kusala and akusala moments in daily life. I wish to focus a bit on your example to demonstrate how it is for most of us. Moments of akusala cittas occur so rapidly that most of us are not really aware of them until they are already over. We find ourselves getting angry, being conceited/selfish, lusting after someone, etc. and it occurs so quickly that it seems as if we are powerless to stop it. If we have wisdom of the Buddha's teaching, then we feel regret after such transgressions and make an effort to not allow them to occur again. The sangha also has a ceremony every month where the monks admit their transgressions, asks the sangha for forgiveness, and pledge to try hard for it not to happen again. However, another important feature of the Buddha's teaching in this regard is encouraging kusala states to arise more often and to continue kusala states which have already arisen. This can be done with meditation on the Brahma-viharas and meditation on virtue. As Buddhists we can't always be beating ourselves up over our mistakes, we also have to feel happiness and appreciation for our successes. If one keeps the five precepts, that is a reason to feel happiness. Even if one only keeps four precepts, or three precepts, or two precepts, or one precept- at least that person should feel happiness for the virtue that they are able to maintain. If you focus on kusala mind states, then the kusala will grow and multiply. If you are always focused on akusala mind states, and feeling regret and powerlessness, then akusala will also grow. So, if one makes a mistake, it is best to admit it and not dwell on it. However, if one does something right, it is best to consider it everyday and feel happiness for it! Metta, James #80772 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 11:01 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Real Dhamma (from Htoo) sarahprocter... Hi Larry (Htoo & all), --- Larry wrote (#80629): >Generally speaking, what > ps: I'm using Ven. ~Nanarama's "The Seven Stages of Purification and The > Insight > Knowledges" as a source, just to include the meditators;-) .... S: I'm not sure how to respond. We could go through it in detail and discuss it further (inc. some errors). Alternatively, you could post one small section at a time from the above. Again I think all the terms (!) need to be clarified and considered. Can you elaborate here on your comment 'just to include the meditators;-)'.... I missed something. Here is Htoo's first paragraph. Do you have any comments on it, leaving aside the last sentence for now? Are meditators included??? > > Heading : Real Dhamma > > > > Things : Six senses are sensed by sense-bases. When senses are > > sensed there arise sense-consciousness. Here senses are meant for > > \'sight, sound, smell, taste, touch, thought\'. Sight is sensed > > through the sense-base of eye-sense-base and there arises > > eye-consciousness (cakkhu-vi~n~naa.na). When contemplate on these > > things (bhaavanaa on aayatana) there may arise three steps of > > knowledge. .... Metta, Sarah ======= #80773 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 11:19 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] thoughts on practice sarahprocter... Hi Larry, Another (or additional) idea would be to go through your 'thoughts on practice' #80631 in some detail. There is a lot of 'meat' in it for discussion. Nina responded and discussed one part. Here is a commment on the first paragraph: --- Larry wrote: >> First, on concentration, there are three levels of heightened > concentration: momentary > concentration, access concentration, and absorption concentration. The > characteristic of > heightened concentration is that it is the clear experience of a > specific object. Ordinarily > we kind of 'go with the flow' and don't engage an object as it is. > "Heightened > concentration" is what we mean by "mindfulness". .... S: What does 'heightened' concentration mean here? Do you mean kusala (wholesome)? You say it is the 'clear experience of a specific object'. Let's take a simple example now of wrong (akusala) concentration when, say, playing a guitar and right (kusala) concentration when, say, giving a gift. [Of course there can be moments of right conentration in the former and wrong concentration in the latter as you pointed out.] Now, in what way is the kusala or 'heightened' concentration in the dana experiencing its specific object any more clearly than the akusala concentration in the guitar playing? What about when robbing a bank? Is this a 'clear experience of a specific object'? You go on to say that 'heightened concentration is what we mean by 'mindfulness'. So this common meaning of mindfulness is very different from sati (awareness) in the teachings then? This is why people have an idea of losing ones keys or forgetting the shopping list as being indications of a lack of mindfulness. Nothing to do with sati or (kusala) samadhi then? I'll look forward to your elaborations. If we get this para agreed, we can move on (maybe in 2009!!). Thanks for all the food for reflection. I hope others join in too. Metta, Sarah ====== #80774 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 12:28 am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 224, 225, and Tiika. nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 224, 225. Intro: In the previous section it was explained that according to some teachers the internal aayatanas which are the five senses and the mind-base (here vipaakacitta) condition contact. But according to other teachers, also the outer aayatanas are taken as condition for contact. As we have seen, the outer aayatanas are: visible object, sound, odour, taste, tactile object and dhammåyatana, comprising: cetasikas, subtle rúpas and nibbåna. In the context of the Dependent Origination nibbaana is excluded. --------- Text Vis. 224: Here it may be asked: 'One kind of contact does not derive from all the bases, nor all the kinds of contact from one base. And yet "With the sixfold base as condition, contact" is said in the singular. Why is that?'. Text Vis. 225: Here is the answer: It is true that neither is one derived from all nor all from one. However, one is derived from many. ------- N: The Tiika emphasizes that he did not teach that one kind of contact is derived from all bases, nor all kinds of contact from one base. It states that he took care in saying that from several aayatanas (anekaayatanehi) one kind of contact is derived. --------- Text Vis.: For eye-contact is derived from eye base, from visible- data base, from mind base reckoned as eye-consciousness, and from the mental-datum base consisting of the remaining associated states. And each case should be construed as appropriate in this way. ------ N: The mental-datum base is the translation of dhammaayatana. Cetasikas are dhammaayatana, they are external aayatanas conditioning contact. They are in this context, as the Tiika explains, the remaining cetasikas, namely the cetasikas with the exception of contact. Contact is here excepted because it is the conditioned dhamma. Thus, eye-contact is conditoned by the eye base, visible object, seeing and the other accompanying cetasikas. There is association of the internal aayatanas and the external aayatanas. -------- Text Vis.: Therefore: Though stated in the singular, He shows therewith in all such cases That this contact, though only one, Is yet derived from several bases. 'Though stated in the singular': the meaning is, by this statement in the singular that 'With the sixfold base as condition, contact', it is pointed out by the Blessed One (Taadin) that contact, which is of one kind, comes into being from many bases. ------ N: In the following sections it will be explained which types of conditions operate in the case of the sixfold base that conditions contact. ********* Nina. #80775 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 12:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy sarahprocter... Hi Howard (& Larry & all), --- upasaka@... wrote: > S: ;-) > What else is meditation other than the growth of 'sila, samadhi, and > panna' as being discussed in detail, carefully considered and > developed accordingly? > ================================== > What else it is, is a mental activity consciously and intentionally > > engaged in that supports the growth of sila, samadhi, and pa~n~na. ... S: Could you tell me, in terms of dhammas, what this mental activity consists of which 'supports the growth of sila, samadhi, and panna'? .... > By analogy, would you ask what else is medication other than growth > of > health? ... S: I would certainly question what the medication consists of rather than accepting a blanket statement about medications! ... > Meditation is a complex activity, > intentionally engaged in, and carried out over a great multiplicity of > "moments" that > serves to *support* the growth of sila, samadhi, and pa~n~na. It is a > cultivational process of a specific sort . ... S: I think we need to be more precise to know what is useful in terms of dhammas. What exactly is this 'cultivational process'? .... > What is most off base in what you wrote, I would say, is that > growth of > sila is part of what meditation *is*. Growth of sila is not part of > what > meditation "is". .... S: Nina recently elaborated on the deeper meaning of sila: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/80634 Sila visuddhi (purity of sila) can only be developed with panna. It is only purified at the stage of sotapanna. Only then will the precepts be kept perfectly, because of the bhavana (mental cultivation) developed. The key is the panna which has clearly understood realities. So, sila, samadhi and panna develop together. ... >It is requisite for successful meditation, and it is > also a > consequence of meditation. The main relation of sila to meditation is > that sila > is requisite for successful meditation. ... S: So let's put it that purity of sila is essential for bhavana, mental cultivation or 'successful meditation'. This would mean that only a sotapanna can begin to develop any understanding of dhammas? ... >The main role of sila viv-a-vis > meditation is that cultivation of sila conditions the modicum of calm > needed for > meditation, and, then, in return, meditation helps to further support > support > sila. .... S: Again I need to know exactly what you mean by meditation. You seem to be saying that sila leads to 'modicum of calm' leads to 'meditation' leads to the development of sila, samadhi and panna. I think you're thinking here in terms of situations or lasting mental states rather than appreciating that when panna arises, there is sila and calm already with it. Apologies if I've misunderstood and thanks for coming in on my quip to Larry which he seemed to agree with! Metta, Sarah ======= #80776 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 12:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Anatta special vs. anicca and dukkha (was, Report ...) jonoabb Hi Dieter --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Dieter Möller wrote: > > Hi Jon, ... > D: I think you will agree with me that right understanding/view , i.e. wisdom does not come from the text but has to be developed by contemplation .. Yes, I of course agree that panna does not come from the texts (I don't think I've ever suggested it did). Panna has to be developed (but I'm not sure what you mean by "by contemplation"). > M.N. 22 is nice to read in this relation ..e.g. these 2 passages (transl. by T.B.): > 'Monks, there is the case where some worthless men study the Dharma: ... They study the Dharma both for attacking others and for defending themselves in debate. They don't reach the goal for which [people] study the Dhamma. Their wrong grasp of those Dhammas will lead to their long-term harm & suffering. Why is that? Because of the wrong-graspedness of the Dhammas.' snip > > The Blessed One said: "Suppose a man were traveling along a path. He would see a great expanse of water, with the near shore dubious & risky, the further shore secure & free from risk, ... Then the man, having gathered grass, twigs, branches, & leaves, having bound them together to make a raft, would cross over to safety on the other shore in dependence on the raft, making an effort with his hands & feet. ' I don't see these 2 passage as being related to the question we are discussing, namely, whether there is a way of developing insight other than the ways that are mentioned or described in the texts. > Jon: I do indeed see a difference between detachment and anattaa. To my understanding: > - anattaa is a *characteristic* of all dhammas - detachment refers to a moment of koala consciousness, specifically to the wholesome mental factor (i.e., a *dhamma*) that is panna, since it is panna that conditions detachment from dhammas by virtue of seeing > them as they truly are. > How do you see anattaa and detachment? > > D: we talking about fully penetrated ...not moments of anatta at kusala consciousness. There are different levels of realization of anatta and detachment. But whatever level we are talking about, I see the two as being not the same. > The fetter of conceit is only abolished at Arahant level. Yes, but conceit and anatta are two different things entirely. > As suffering is described in brief by khanda attachment , detachment means full penetration/realization of ( all dhammas are) anatta, doesn't it? No, I don't think we can reason like that. There is absence of attachment to the khandhas at every moment of kusala. Perhaps you could give a sutta quote for each of these 2 terms showing them in context. Then it would be easier to discuss. Jon #80777 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 1:05 am Subject: Fwd: Re: [dsg] Fwd: Re : Could you please help ? sarahprocter... Dear Friends, Charles P. sent the following reply to my comments last week (on the introduction to his book), but I only just saw his note which I'm forwarding too. S. .... >Dear Sarah, Thank you very much for your comments. I do appreciate it very much. I know your problem with "meditation". But it does not matter what is important for me was to know that on the whole the Introduction would be alright. I do not want to make it too long. About the mind being an instrument I may perhaps rewrite it. Thank you, with metta, Charles > wrote: > > > > Dear Charles P, > > > > Thank you for sending me the introduction of your new book for any > > comments. It's no inconvenience at all, but as I mentioned, I'd rather > > share any comments or discussion on your text on DSG, so others can > > read/comment further if they wish as well. <....> #80778 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 1:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Welcome To The Theravada Fold -- Re: Ignorance......wrong concentration sarahprocter... Dear Suan, Others have already replied, so I'll keep my comments brief. I hope that you may have time to respond to the various replies so far. --- abhidhammika wrote: > Sarah, thank you for quoting suttas on Wrong Concentration and Right > Concentration. > > By quoting them, do you now accept the importance of Right > Concentration (Sammaasamaadhi)? .... S: I don't think I've ever questioned the importance of samaasamaadhi, have I? However, without the development of samaadi.t.thi (right understanding), there won't be any understanding of what samaasamaadhi is. ... > > And, with that, do you now accept the compulsory nature of formal > development of Right Concentration? ... S: What do you mean by 'formal development....' and how does this follow from the first question? Which dhamma(s) refer to 'formal development' as opposed to 'development'? .... > > When you became able to answer Yes to the above questions, I would > consider that you are within the fold of the mainstream Theravada > Saasana of Gotama the Buddha. ... S: Don't you think tha tan understanding of the Buddha's teachings, particularly with regard to anatta and the fact that dhammas are not within anyone's control, is more precious that being in a perceived mainstream fold? ... > Looking forward to your group conforming to Mainstream Theravada in > 2008! > > Happy New Year ... S: Thanks Suan! I look forward to further discussions with you on these important topics, so that any 'conforming' is with right understanding rather than just following what is commonly taught/mis-taught today. A very Happy New Year too (with right understanding and right concentration!!) Metta, Sarah ======= #80779 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 2:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:kusala and akusala, was: Ignorance......wrong concentration nilovg Hi Howard and James, Both of you wrote very good posts on self examination. I thought of you, James when I read Howard's post as an example of a daily life happening. But I also recognized myself. H: Ah, well! Still quite human, I am! You know? I could *feel* the egotism as I wrote you, I *knew* it was ego writing, and *still* I wrote it! What a hopeless, credit-seeking lot we humans are - at least this one called "Howard" is! (Well, at least it's better having caught it than being oblivious! ;-) ----- N: I had the same happening, the same day, when sending the text with Pali about nijjhaana to Scott. Conceit and other akusala arising. I felt so annoyed with myself, more dosa. I discussed it with Lodewijk, and how different so called personalities are at different moments, depending on the citta. Citta falls away and it seems we are quite a different personality, but where is the personality that has fallen away? In truth there are different cittas and cetasikas arising and falling away. I discussed with Lodewijk that this helps to cling less to an idea of person. One could refrain from writing as an exercise of humility, but then: again conceit: my precious self image of humility. So, it seems that whatever we do or not do is wrong. But, as James said, it is of no use to dwell long on these things. And also: we would never write posts again, no dsg list. Op 4-jan-2008, om 7:53 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > So, if one makes a mistake, it is best > to admit it and not dwell on it. However, if one does something > right, it is best to consider it everyday and feel happiness for it! -------- N: It helps me to remember that also kusala falls away immediately and is a mere dhamma. James, the above are examples of different cittas. Our original thread was: is it possible to distinguish kusala from akusala. In the 'Anumanasutta' (M. 15) the Buddha tells the monks to examine on's consciousness three times daily: (from Rob K's web) If it were not possible to consider one's cittas the Buddha would not ask the bhikkhus to do so. James, as you rightly write: When we reflect afterwards all these cittas have gone. But there can be a beginning, and at first our knowledge is coarse. Then it can become more refined. I gave you the example of metta and anger or irritation. We may be irritated in our words. Then we may ask forgiveness and then the citta is gentle and soft, quite a difference. We can begin to know the difference between akusala and kusala, even though it is not yet precise. Nina. #80780 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 2:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] sa~n~naa, was: thoughts on practice nilovg Hi Larry and Howard, Op 4-jan-2008, om 5:15 heeft LBIDD@... het volgende geschreven: > I have been meditating on carpenters and their markings....Then he > cuts > the wood at that mark so it fits. Based on that scenario I would say > "marking the object" is the moment of recognition, saying this is the > same as that. It's a bit of a stretch, but I'll put it out there as a > possibility. ------- N: I follow what you mean. I would not insist too much on: this is the same, because there are many more instances of sa~n~naa performing its function. What if you do not recognize someone you meet? There is still sa~n~naa. When forgetting, there is still sa~n`naa. It helps to see sa~n~naa as momentary and not just in a situation or in relation to concepts. The woodcutter is merely an illustration, but we have to think of the momentary aspect of sa~n~naa. This morning I heard a tape made in Chiengmai about perceiving a word. An example was given of a word, in Thai aarom, this is the Pali aaramma.na, object. The late Abbot, Khun Sukol's brother, asked about this. First the sound aa is heard through the ear-door and then in a mind-door process. Then the following sounds of the word aa-rom are experienced through the ear-door and the minddoor. There are many mind-door processes of cittas arising in between, and it takes a while before one knows the meaning of the whole word aarom. Sa~n~naa marks and remembers at each and every moment of citta, otherwise it would not be possible to register the whole word and its meaning. It also shows how fast the many processes occur, arising and falling away. It seems just one moment: hearing aarom and knowing the meaning. But, Kh Sujin said, we do not always think of meanings, we may just hear the sounds. This as an addition from the same tape: Nina. #80781 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 3:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy sarahprocter... Dear Scott & all, [To others - this is very technical, so feel v.free to skip it!] --- Scott Duncan wrote: > S: "Yes, always concept as object (expect for the 2nd & 4th arupa > jhanas)" > > Scott: What are the objects of these jhaanas? ... S: The 1st and 3rd arupa jhanas respectively. .... > Scott: So, citta and cetasika are the objects of these two aruupa > jhaanas? .... S: Just the cittas, I believe. See the chart [3.5]in CMA in ch III, #18. .. > Scott: Can you say more of the role of pa~n~naa in the development of > samatha? ... S: Without panna which understands the quality of calm and understands the object and how it can bring about such calm, no development of samatha. For example, just thinking about the Buddha without any understanding of the qualities in a wholesome way cannot lead to any development of calm. The same applies to breath, death, a kasina or any other object. Panna is the key, not living in a particular environment or following a list of stipulations. So again, it's not a question of doing something special, but of understanding at this level. This understanding is of course as conditioned and anatta as any other dhamma. .... >I'd guess that it would be pa~n~naa of some degree that > would serve the function of knowing, at any given time, the > consciousness and concomitant mental states that constitute the > particular jhaana so that jhaana is known as jhaana and not something > else. ... S: It's always panna which knows! Of course, without the development of satipatthana, such knowing will not be of these dhammas as anatta. ... >And do you mean 'kusala' bhaavanaa when you implicate pa~n~naa > with bhaavanaa? ... S: Can any bhavana not be kusala (or kiriya for arahats)?. Yes, panna always included. ... > Scott: Again, can you please clarify the role of pa~n~naa as it arises > with jhaana cittas? I think you start this below... > > S: "Or to put it another way, the jhana citta(s) (which were > accompanied by panna with the jhana kamatthana as object)have fallen > away when the vipassana panna penetrates any of the dhammas which were > the constituents of the jhana." > > Scott: What is 'kamaa.t.thanaa'? ... S: The kamatthana is the object or 'working ground'. In this context it is one of the 40 objects of samatha. See an old message of Htoo's: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/42065 So, in this instance above, panna accompanies the jhana cittas which are 'absorbed' in the kamatthana, such as the kasina. After these cittas have fallen away, the panna of insight penetrates any of the dhammas. It is because of the panna and other factors accompanying the jhana cittas that there is complete (temporary) cessation of sense objects appearing. ... >Again, does this refer to pa~n~naa > which functions to know the characteristics of the jhaana cittas? ... S: Yes, it has to be panna which knows these characteristics. Even without any development of vipassana, after the jhana cittas have fallen away, they are immediately followed by 'reviewing cittas' (just like after magga and phala cittas). Again, only the panna of satipatthana knows dhammas as dhammas, not belonging to anyone. ... >Or > the characteristic of the jhaana kamatthana? ... S: As we've discussed, the jhana kamatthana is nearly always a concept, so no lakkhana in the sense that dhammas (realities) have lakkhanas. But yes, it is panna (of samatha) which understands the concept/kamatthana. Like now, if there is panna arising, reflecting on the Buddha's qualities, it is a concept, not a reality. ... >And then to another > function of pa~n~naa which is to penetrate any of these dhammas as to > one of the three characteristics (anicca, dukkha, anatta)? ... S: This is the vipassana panna which follows, prior to enlightenment. ... > S: "Panna is a pre-requisite for jhana to arise (or samatha bhavana) > as stated. What you're asking for is a text which says attainment of > jhana(s) is a pre-requisite for the development of > vipassana/satipatthana. (Of course, in the second sense of jhana as > lakkhanupanijjhana [as opposed to arammanupanijjhana], then as we read > in the oft-quoted Dhp verse, the lokuttara cittas can be referred to > as lokuttara jhana cittas.]" > > Scott: Whoa. Heavy. And good. Might I have a source for > 'lakkhanupanijjhana' and 'arammanupanijjhana'? I think this means > differentiation of characteristic from object, but I'm not totally > sure here. ... S: More in U.P. under 'Jhana 16 Two Meanings'. The first refers to lokuttara cittas, The second refers to mundane jhanas. Apologies for the 'heavy'. You gave a very good quote yourself recently, (#80526), so I thought you had these nailed. Let me repeat it, adding the terms at the start: Scott: Atthasaalinii (p.p.222-223): "Jhaana is twofold: that which (views or) examines closely the object and that which examines closely the characteristic marks [aaramma.nupanijjhaana~n ca lakkha.nupanijjhaana.m]. Of these two, 'object-scrutinising' jhaana examines closely those devices [for self-hypnosis] as mental objects. Insight, the Path and Fruition are called 'characteristics-examining jhaana.' Of these three, insight is so called from its examining closely the characteristics of impermanence, etc. Because the work to be done by insight is accomplished through the Path, the Path is so called. And because Fruition examines closely the Truth of cessation, and possesses the characteristic of truth, it also is called 'characteristic-examining jhaana.' Of these two kinds of jhaana, the 'object-examining' mode is here intended. Hence, from the examining the object and extinguishing the opposing Hindrances, jhaana is to be thus understood." ... How are we doing? Thanks for the challenge as always! Pls don't let this stop the flow of your discussion, if it hasn't run completely dry. Hope you and the children have had a lovely holiday season and wishing you all the best for 2008! Metta, Sarah ======== #80782 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 4:24 am Subject: Mental Medicine... bhikkhu0 Friends: Some verses from The Sutta Pitaka about the Teaching: Of all the Medicines in the world, even & ever so numerous & different none is comparable to the Dhamma. Therefore, friends, take this Dhamma. Having swallowed & digested this sublime Dhamma Medicine, you will go beyond ageing & death. You will be freed, cured of all Craving. Good Luck in life is actually obvious: Those who respect The Dhamma flourish. Bad luck in life is also quite obvious: Those who despise The Dhamma deteriorate. Having been shown this straight Way, that thrust into Deathlessness. You, through prudence & patience, will reach it, touch it, & know it directly, as the stream of the river Ganges, always reaches the mighty ocean. --ooOoo-- Adapted from Gemstones of Good Dhamma Wheel 342/344 Ven. S. Dhammika, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/dhammika/wheel342.html BPS Buddhist Publication Society, Kandy, Sri Lanka. Thanks2U2, : - ] Friendship is the Greatest * Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka :-) .... #80783 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 5:01 am Subject: Perfections Corner (73) nichiconn Dear All, http://www.zolag.co.uk/ - The Perfections Leading to Enlightenment by Sujin Boriharnwanaket; translated by Nina van Gorkom. Chapter 9: The Perfection of Loving-kindness (ending) Our thinking of other people and their actions can be motivated by the four brahmaavihaaras of loving-kindness, compassion, sympathetic joy and equanimity. When people see someone who commits akusala kamma that is harmful for society, they are upset and they hope that he will receive the result of his action accordingly. However, a person should consider what kind of citta motivates his thinking, whether he thinks with mettaa, compassion, sympathetic joy or equanimity. When someone receives the result of a bad deed, when he is in trouble and distress, or he has to suffer, people will feel sorry for him. But actually, they should have mettaa and compassion for him at the moment he commits akusala kamma which is the cause of a future result. If one sympathizes with him when he receives an undesirable result, one sympathizes too late. If we are a real friend we can help a person to be free from deeds and thoughts which are akusala, to have wholesome conduct instead of unwholesome conduct. In the ultimate sense there are no beings or persons, there are only realities arising and falling away, each with their own characteristic. We think of different situations and people with kusala citta or with akusala citta. We should know the difference between kusala and akusala. If we live according to the Dhamma, we shall further develop pa~n~naa and every kind of kusala. We shall know immediately at which moment we have no loving-kindness but akusala. Then we shall be able to have loving-kindness immediately, also for a person who behaves like an enemy. === peace, connie #80784 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 5:01 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (73) nichiconn Dear Friends, Part 2 16. Mahaanipaato 1. Sumedhaatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa Saa pana daharakaalato pa.t.thaaya attano samaanavayaahi raajaka~n~naahi daasijanehi ca saddhi.m bhikkhunupassaya.m gantvaa bhikkhuniina.m santike dhamma.m sutvaa cirakaalato pa.t.thaaya kataadhikaarataaya sa.msaare jaatasa.mvegaa saasane abhippasannaa hutvaa vayappattakaale kaamehi vinivattitamaanasaa ahosi. Tena saa maataapituuna.m ~naatiina.m sammantana.m sutvaa "na mayha.m gharaavaasena kicca.m, pabbajissaamahan"ti aaha. But she had gone to the bhikkhuniis' monastery together with princesses who were her own age and with servants from the time she was young. She heard the Doctrine in the presence of the bhikkhuniis for a long time, and because a profound stirring arose in her at the time she did the prerequisite [work], she had faith in the teaching. When she came of age, she turned her mind away from sensual pleasures. Therefore, when she heard the consulation between her parents and relatives, she said, "I will have nothing to do with household life. I will go forth." RD: But she from her childhood had been in the habit of going with Princesses of her own age and attendant slaves to the Bhikkhuniis' quarters to hear them preach the Doctrine, and for a long time, because of her pristine resolve, she had grown fearful of birth in the round of life, devoted to religion and averse to the pleasures of sense. Wherefore, when she heard the decision of her parents and kinsfolk, she said: 'My duty lies not in the life of the house. I will leave the world.' Ta.m maataapitaro gharaavaase niyojentaa naanappakaarena yaacantaapi sa~n~naapetu.m naasakkhi.msu. Saa "eva.m me pabbajitu.m labbhatii"ti khagga.m gahetvaa sayameva attano kese chinditvaa te eva kese aarabbha pa.tikkuulamanasikaara.m pavattentii tattha kataadhikaarataaya bhikkhuniina.m santike manasikaaravidhaanassa sutapubbattaa ca asubhanimitta.m uppaadetvaa tattha pa.thamajjhaana.m adhigacchi. Adhigatapa.thamajjhaanaa ca attanaa gharaavaase uyyojetu.m upagate maataapitaro aadi.m katvaa antojanaparijana.m sabba.m raajakula.m saasane abhippasanna.m kaaretvaa gharato nikkhamitvaa bhikkhunupassaya.m gantvaa pabbaji. Pabbajitvaa ca vipassana.m pa.t.thapetvaa sammadeva paripakka~naa.naa vimuttiparipaacaniiyaana.m dhammaana.m visesitaaya na cirasseva se aha pa.tisambhidaahi arahatta.m paapu.ni. Her mother and father urged her [to embrace] household life, entreating her in various ways, but they were not able to convince her. She thought, "In this way it will be possible to go forth," and taking a knife, she cut off her own hair. Then she established her attention on repulsiveness in connection with her hair. Since she had done the prerequisite [work], and since she had previously heard the method for paying careful attention from the bhikkhuniis, she developed the sign of founess and attained the first absorption state. And having attained the first absorption state, when her mother and father, etc, approached her to urge her [to remain] in the household life, she made the family retinue, all the king's family, have faith in the teaching. Then she departed from home, went to the bhikkhunii's monastery, and went forth. And having gone forth, she properly established insight. Because of her matured knowledge and through distinguishing mental states leading to freedom, in a very short time she attained the state of Arahatship together with the [four] discriminations. RD: And they were not able to dissuade her. She thinking, 'Thus shall I gain permission to leave the world,' laid hold of her purpose, and cut off her own hair. Then using her hair in accordance with what she had heard from the Bhikkhuniis of their methods, she concentrated her attention on repugnance to physical attraction, and calling up the idea of 'Foul Things,' *412 then and there attained First Jhaana. And when she was thus rapt, her parents came to her apartments in order to give her away. But she made them first and all their retinue and all the Raja's people believers in religion, and left the house, renouncing the world in the Bhikkhuniis' quarters. Not long after, establishing insight, and ripe for emancipation, she attained Arahantship, with thorough grasp of the Norm in form and in meaning. *412 Cf. Ps xli. In the Commentary, p. 273, read, for patikulamanasikaara.m, pa.tikkuula*. == to be continued, connie #80785 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 1:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] thoughts on practice upasaka_howard Hi, Larry - In a message dated 1/4/2008 12:45:18 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@... writes: Hi Howard, Howard: "Commonality of category has nothing at all to do with permanence or even continuation." Larry: So saying this now is the same as that then doesn't imply permanence? Larry ================================ A few points: 1) We can *say* anything, but it needn't be true. 2) Similarity isn't identity, because any difference in any respect means non-identity. 3) Difference in the phenomena co-occurring with two phenomena is already difference between those two phenomena, and thus time of occurrence is relevant. No things occurring at different times are the same one thing. 4) Identity itself is even questionable, for to be "identical with oneself" presupposes self. The notions of "self" and "identity" are mutually dependent. 5) At a moment of seeing, there is no heard sound. So, was the previously heard sound permanent? The previously heard sound was, say, a riveter sound. After the moment of seeing, suppose again there is heard "the sound of the riveting." a) Did that first heard sound continue straight through the seeing? b) Was it permanent? c) Is the riveting sound heard after the seeing identically the riveting sound heard before the seeing? My answers to these three questions are "no," "no," and "no." [Note: I'm speaking of heard sounds, precisely to simplify the discussion by avoiding the side-issue of experienced dhammas versus unexperienced dhammas. Also, note that experienced namas can equally well serve as examples. If I was angry yesterday, and I am angry again today, these are not "the same anger". Yesterday's anger didn't persist. But I can categorize both as "anger" because of their similarity. Moreover, getting back to the riveter example: The hearing of riveting was followed by seeing, and then there was hearing again of riveting. Was the first hearing permanent? Did the first hearing even continue through the seeing? My answers: "No" and "no." ] Larry, I put these points forward for your consideration. If they are helpful to you in your considerations, that's great. I don't think this is an issue for debate so much as for contemplation. I don't assert that I'm right and you're wrong. We currently see the matter differently. At this point, I can't grasp your perspective. I hope that what I wrote above is helpful to you in grasping mine, but I don't assume anything more than that. With metta, Howard With metta, Howard #80786 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 1:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] thoughts on practice upasaka_howard Hi, Larry (and Nina) - In a message dated 1/4/2008 1:35:31 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@... writes: Hi Howard and Nina, The answer is simpler than I thought. Even recognition that arises with wisdom says this is the same as that. Recognition couldn't work any other way. But wisdom, seeing things as they are, says this and that are not the same. Thanks, Howard, for pointing out that we know that no two coldnesses are the same. Larry ================================= Hah! ;-) And here I just wrote another post on this topic to you. I hope it doesn't muddy the waters! LOL! With metta, Howard #80787 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 1:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 1/4/2008 3:42:56 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Hi Howard (& Larry & all), --- upasaka@... wrote: > S: ;-) > What else is meditation other than the growth of 'sila, samadhi, and > panna' as being discussed in detail, carefully considered and > developed accordingly? > ================================== > What else it is, is a mental activity consciously and intentionally > > engaged in that supports the growth of sila, samadhi, and pa~n~na. ... S: Could you tell me, in terms of dhammas, what this mental activity consists of which 'supports the growth of sila, samadhi, and panna'? -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Simple answer: no. All aggregations, whether "activities" or not, are conglomerates of interrelated dhammas. But any list I would give would be far too small, and, anyway, there is no reason to attempt to do this. -------------------------------------------------------- .... > By analogy, would you ask what else is medication other than growth > of > health? ... S: I would certainly question what the medication consists of rather than accepting a blanket statement about medications! -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: You'd require a detailed chemical analysis? I doubt it. In any case, if you want to know what meditation is, you should study the teachings and you should engage in meditation, and then you'll know. A list of dhammas won't help. ------------------------------------------------------ ... > Meditation is a complex activity, > intentionally engaged in, and carried out over a great multiplicity of > "moments" that > serves to *support* the growth of sila, samadhi, and pa~n~na. It is a > cultivational process of a specific sort . ... S: I think we need to be more precise to know what is useful in terms of dhammas. What exactly is this 'cultivational process'? -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Again, if you are interested, you should check it out. My point was that meditation is a complex, intentional activity. Among the things involved are exerting effort to maintain mindfulness of what is arising and ceasing, and avoiding the five hindrances by the means the Buddha suggested. I really have no more to say than this. ------------------------------------------------------- .... > What is most off base in what you wrote, I would say, is that > growth of > sila is part of what meditation *is*. Growth of sila is not part of > what > meditation "is". .... S: Nina recently elaborated on the deeper meaning of sila: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/80634 Sila visuddhi (purity of sila) can only be developed with panna. ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: So? The wisdom needn't be full blown. You're not lacking in sufficient wisdom. ---------------------------------------------------------- It is only purified at the stage of sotapanna. Only then will the precepts be kept perfectly, because of the bhavana (mental cultivation) developed. The key is the panna which has clearly understood realities. So, sila, samadhi and panna develop together. --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Surely you're not asserting that meditation is something open only to ariyans, are you? --------------------------------------------------------- ... >It is requisite for successful meditation, and it is > also a > consequence of meditation. The main relation of sila to meditation is > that sila > is requisite for successful meditation. ... S: So let's put it that purity of sila is essential for bhavana, mental cultivation or 'successful meditation'. This would mean that only a sotapanna can begin to develop any understanding of dhammas? ----------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: LOL! That's what I just asked you. My answer: No. --------------------------------------------------------------- ... >The main role of sila viv-a-vis > meditation is that cultivation of sila conditions the modicum of calm > needed for > meditation, and, then, in return, meditation helps to further support > support > sila. .... S: Again I need to know exactly what you mean by meditation. You seem to be saying that sila leads to 'modicum of calm' leads to 'meditation' leads to the development of sila, samadhi and panna. -------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: What I said above about it is all I can think of saying. ------------------------------------------------------------- I think you're thinking here in terms of situations or lasting mental states rather than appreciating that when panna arises, there is sila and calm already with it. -------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't believe in lasting mental states. ------------------------------------------------------------- Apologies if I've misunderstood and thanks for coming in on my quip to Larry which he seemed to agree with! ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I've been reading & writing so many posts recently that I'm not sure exactly what you are referring to here, Sarah. :-) --------------------------------------------------------- Metta, Sarah ============================ With metta, Howard #80788 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 6:34 am Subject: Perfections Corner nichiconn Dear Han (and All), Unless someone else would like to post a chapter now, I leave the continuation of the series in your hands. The next installment should be Perfections Corner (74). Thank you again. with respect, connie #80789 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 7:20 am Subject: Lessons in Detachment, Ch 1, no 2. nilovg Dear friends, Throughout the years I have visited the holy places many times, but this time I noticed that they had been greatly improved by the Archeological Survey of the Government of India, and that the parks around them were well kept. The atmosphere was very peaceful and inviting to discussing and considering the Dhamma. We had Dhamma discussions in English as well as in Thai. In Bodhgaya we had a Dhamma discussion in Thai near the Bodhi tree, next to the Stupa that marks the cremation place of the great Commentator Buddhaghosa. I paid respect here and I thought with gratefulness of Buddhaghosa who promoted the preservation of the Tipitaka in using the original commentaries that give clear explanations of the texts. Here, Acharn Sujin emphasized that we should not merely think of the words of the texts, but that we should have firm understanding of the characteristics of realities that appear. We should not dwell on the past that has gone already, nor think of the future that has not come yet. There can be awareness and understanding of the dhammas appearing at this moment. We visited the Maha-Bodhi society in Bodhgaya and in Saranath. The founder of this society Anagarika Dharmapala performed an enormous task in restoring the holy places which were neglected and had become like a desert. He played an important role in the revival of Buddhism in India and Sri Lanka. Relics of the Buddha are kept in the Mulagandhakuti Vihara in Saranath, the building of which Anagarika Dharmapala completed during his life, not without great efforts in overcoming many obstacles. When we were in Saranath the relics were taken out of the shrine and we were given the opportunity to pay respect. First the monks chanted the sutta of the first sermon: the “Setting in Motion of the Wheel of Dhamma”. The Buddha spoke about the Middle Way which is the eightfold Path and about the four noble Truths. I recited this sutta several times in the bus with Sarah and Jonothan. After the chanting, we were allowed to approach the relics and the Venerable Kahawatte Siri Sumedha pointed to the relics with a lotus to each of us and said: “Here are his bones and some ashes.” The relics were also placed on our heads. We were impressed by the great devotion and eagerness with which he spoke about the holy places and reminded us that we should be grateful to have this unique opportunity to visit them. Our group also took part of the offering of food and requisites to hundred and twenty monks. This was an occasion for Sangha Dåna, an offering to the Order of monks. According to the Vinaya those who want to perform Sangha Dåna have to ask the Abbot to assign the bhikkhus who will receive food and requisites. When one performs Sangha dåna one does not think of giving gifts to a particular monk, but one gives to the Sangha. ******* Nina. #80790 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 11:51 am Subject: India 6. nilovg Dear friends, > > Discussions with Kh Sujin in India. > India 6. > > Many realities are appearing in a day, such as seeing, hearing, > heardness, but one is always absorbed in thinking about them, even > right now. One has learnt that there is nobody, no thing, only > different elements, dhaatus, but usually one does not see hardness > as an element. It seems always to be ‘something’. There can be > understanding of hardness. It is experienced through the bodysense > and it is just hardness. Can it be anything else besides hardness? > When one has studied the teachings and acquired a firm foundation > of Dhamma study, this will condition one day the arising of sati. > Instead of ignorance of the characteristic of hardness sati and > pa~n~naa can experience hardness after the body-consciousness has > experienced it and has fallen away. Then one begins to know > hardness as an element. It is also a beginning of knowing when > there is sati and when there is not. > > N: But after a moment of sati we may think of it with attachment. > > S: We should not have any expectation about sati. Is there anyone > waiting for the arising of sati after seeing or after the > experience of tangible object through the bodysense? > > Nama and rupa are different realities. At the moment a > characteristic appears that characteristic can be known. You do > not have to think about the difference between nama and rupa, the > characteristic that appears is already known by sati and pa~n~na. > There is no time to call it nama or rupa. Usually people remember > the terms first and then they try to find out about nama and rupa. > Right understanding knows one characteristic at a time. There is no > need to say that a particular characteristic is nama. By > understanding that seeing experiences visible object one can come > closer to the understanding of nama, instead of trying to know > beforehand that a reality is nama. > > Visible object cannot be seeing. Seeing is now performing the > function of seeing. Each citta and each cetasika peform their > function. Nama that arises has to perform a function. Seeing is the > faculty of experiencing only. It sees. We can know that it is > dhamma because it is real. This is not right understanding yet, but > it is the beginning to know seeing at the moment of seeing. Usually > when we read about seeing it is not seeing that sees, it is > thinking about seeing. There may be only understanding of the term > and its meaning. There are many different levels of understanding. > Reality is not in the book, but it is here and now. > > ---------- > > Nina #80791 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 5:53 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy/ Happy New Year to all of us ! buddhistmedi... Hi Sarah, - You wrote: > S: Thank you so much for your good wishes. You were one of the 'key > players' in helping the lively and beneficial discussions along. Without good friends like yourself questioning what we say and providing excellent textual passages, there's be no discussions! > > Yes, let's all make 2008 a good year of 'lively and beneficial' discussion too! > > Thanks again for your good wishes. > Tep: Now that my busy end-of-year activities are over, I am back to this forum. Please let me have a few more days to catch on the fast trains of discussion here. Our "good friends", who drive the fast trains, are doing a great job with the same consistency as they did in 2007. But I wonder if anyone here really missed my questioning (that sometimes, went off the "track"). However, I do appreciate your kind words. Tep === #80792 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 7:36 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] sa~n~naa, was: thoughts on practice lbidd2 Hi Nina, Nina: "What if you do not recognize someone you meet? There is still sa~n~naa. When forgetting, there is still sa~n`naa." Larry: I agree that sa~n~naa has different functions. An important one is the formation of signs (nimitta). But I think not recognizing someone or forgetting is more a matter of ignorance than the functioning of sa~n~naa. Although it's very subtle, all the little things that happen when we forget and know we forget. Very tricky. Plus the whole issue of memory is a little cloudy in abhidhamma. Larry #80793 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 7:46 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] thoughts on practice lbidd2 Hi Howard, Howard: "At this point, I can't grasp your perspective. I hope that what I wrote above is helpful to you in grasping mine, but I don't assume anything more than that." Larry: I agree with all your points. We are just talking about different things. I was addressing what it means to recognize something. How that works and how insight might relate to that. Nothing more. Larry #80794 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 7:48 pm Subject: Re: Anatta as a strategy buddhatrue Hi Sarah and Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Sarah - > > In a message dated 1/4/2008 3:42:56 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > > Hi Howard (& Larry & all), > > --- upasaka@... wrote: > > > S: ;-) > > What else is meditation other than the growth of 'sila, samadhi, and > > panna' as being discussed in detail, carefully considered and > > developed accordingly? > > ================================== > > What else it is, is a mental activity consciously and intentionally > > > > engaged in that supports the growth of sila, samadhi, and pa~n~na. > ... > S: Could you tell me, in terms of dhammas, what this mental activity > consists of which 'supports the growth of sila, samadhi, and panna'? > -------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Simple answer: no. All aggregations, whether "activities" or not, are > conglomerates of interrelated dhammas. But any list I would give would be far > too small, and, anyway, there is no reason to attempt to do this. > -------------------------------------------------------- I find this discussion really funny! To use an analogy, it reminds me of swimming. Howard is saying that one must swim! Sarah is saying that she isn't going to swim until she knows everything involved in swimming, can read all about swimming in a book, can have discussions about swimming with fellow people, etc. because she is afraid of drowning. And that is what it comes down to: Sarah is afraid and Howard isn't afraid. But, as Howard keeps telling Sarah, DON'T BE AFRAID AND JUST JUMP IN!! That would be impossible for Sarah right now because she is too afraid. Metta, James #80795 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 3:07 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] thoughts on practice upasaka_howard Hi, Larry - In a message dated 1/4/2008 10:46:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@... writes: Hi Howard, Howard: "At this point, I can't grasp your perspective. I hope that what I wrote above is helpful to you in grasping mine, but I don't assume anything more than that." Larry: I agree with all your points. We are just talking about different things. I was addressing what it means to recognize something. How that works and how insight might relate to that. Nothing more. Larry ================================== Well, it's pleasant that we agree. I had gotten the impression that you seemed to think that recognition implies permanence, and that is what I addressed. Ah, well! ;-) With metta, Howard #80796 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 9:13 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Real Dhamma (from Htoo) lbidd2 Hi Sarah, Regarding my reference to Ven. ~Nanarama's book, I just mentioned it in case any of our ardent meditators wanted to look at it as a way of studying the path of purification. He presents every stage in the context of "formal" meditation as opposed to a bolt of insight while sipping a cup of joe at the local Starbucks. At this point I'm kind of resistant to transcribing another book, but I would like to bring it in because it offers another perspective. Basically, I was hoping you would do all the work and I would make an occasional comment. Sarah: "Here is Htoo's first paragraph. Do you have any comments on it, leaving aside the last sentence for now? Are meditators included??? Heading : Real Dhamma Things : Six senses are sensed by sense-bases. When senses are sensed there arise sense-consciousness. Here senses are meant for \'sight, sound, smell, taste, touch, thought\'. Sight is sensed through the sense-base of eye-sense-base and there arises eye-consciousness (cakkhu-vi~n~naa.na). When contemplate on these things (bhaavanaa on aayatana) there may arise three steps of knowledge. Larry: Knowledge is conditioned by contact: eye contact, ear contact, nose contact, tongue contact, body contact, and mind contact. Contact with "real dhamma" (realities). ~Nanarama p.19: The first stage of insight meditation is called Purification of View. This purification consists in arousing insight into mind-and-matter (namarupa), using the meditation subject as a basis. Here the aspect "matter" (rupa) covers the physical side of existence, the aggregate of material form. The aspect "mind" (nama) covers the mental side of existence, the four aggregates of feeling, perception, mental formations and consciousness. Purification of View is attained as the meditator goes on attending to his meditation subject with a unified mind equipped with the six cleansings and the four conditions relating to the development of the spiritual faculties. "Now the meditation subject begins to appear to him as consisting of two functionally distinguishable parts--mind and matter--rather than as a single unit. This purification gains its name because it marks the initial breakaway from all speculative views headed by personality view." Larry: Maybe you could give us a more comprehensive launching of this particular boat. Larry #80797 From: "Andrew" Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 10:39 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Preserving the Buddha's Teachings, Ch 4, no 3. corvus121 Hello DC Thank you for describing the very ancient idea of saddha/sraadha. Knowing the linguistic context and history always helps clarify the later usages. DC: Saddhaa, in the canon, on the other hand is based on "knowledge." In the Kaalaama sutta for instance, it is stated as "attanaava jaaneyyatha," when you know for yourself. You learn by observing the world. For example, you learn that if you bully your younger brother, you get punished by your parents. Later as you grow up you learn that, if you try such things with outsiders you will be punished by society (or law). This is why samaadi.t.thi is described as the knowledge of the Four Ariyan Truths." Andrew: I'm not sure I have grasped the last sentence. Samaadi.t.thi is "right view", is it not? What is the point you are making (or about to make below) concerning right view? DC: ... Here you undertake the "religious activities" not by praying and so on but by controlling your behavior. Behavior by both word and by deed. That is siila. If you are a householder, you control it by undertaking the five precepts. You resolve in your own mind, that you will not kill etc. Of course, this is an extremely difficult thing to do. Therefore you will break it at the beginning. Then what you do is to acknowledge that there has been a breach of the > siila, then find a way to avoid that in the future and again undertake it. This acknoledgement is necessary. It is neither confession nor repentance. This type of terms have no meaning in Dhamma. The deed that has been done is done; nothing can be done about it. All you can do is to resolve to never to repeat it. Undertake the siila again with that resolve. This type of things involves lot of contemplation and soul-searching. That is what starts giving insight (wisdom) to the nature of things. That is how you acquire pa~n~naa. ... I think that even to understand 'What the Buddha taught' not to understand the Dhamma, it is necessary to proceed in a systematic way. I personally think one needs to start with the Dhammacakkappavattana sutta. Studing that sutta is not easy. You have to go word by word, sentence by sentence. And you need to understand it; if you try to interpret it on the basis of any view you will fail. You need to give up all your opinions, views, prejudices, in short all your beliefs. Please try to do that. One difficulty you will have is not being able to read the original Pali. All translations are biased. You can start with a translation. Then we can discuss it. Andrew: Is this sutta no. 26 in the Diigha Nikaaya: "The Lion's Roar on the Turning of the Wheel"? If so, I have Maurice Walshe's translation and this link: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.26.0.than.html Would you like to begin by commenting on the first few paragraphs? Best wishes to you and your family Andrew #80798 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 11:10 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] thoughts on practice lbidd2 Hi Sarah, Sarah: "What does 'heightened' concentration mean here? Do you mean kusala (wholesome)? You say it is the 'clear experience of a specific object'." Larry: "Heightened" is my own term. Maybe there is something in Pali?? It is meant to distinguish a level of concentration that is more intense than the ordinary concentration that arises with every consciousness. It can be either wholesome or unwholesome. Even in the act of robbing a bank it could be wholesome or unwholesome. The unwholesome is with hindrances and the wholesome is without hindrances. A bank robber could hold his weapon with perfect purity, like a samurai. But if the samurai is proud, that is impure, unwholesome concentration. Sarah: "You go on to say that 'heightened concentration is what we mean by 'mindfulness'. So this common meaning of mindfulness is very different from sati (awareness) in the teachings then?" Larry: Actually, I have a quibble about "mindfulness". "Sati" is often translated as "mindfulness". but what people usually mean by "mindfulness" is paying attention to something. IMO this is concentration. "Sati" is actually recollection and recognition. I would classify it as the first three insights, called "tender insight": determination of namarupa, dependent arising, and what is path and not path. Insight knowledge I would classify as right view in the 8-fold path. Sarah: "This is why people have an idea of losing ones keys or forgetting the shopping list as being indications of a lack of mindfulness. Nothing to do with sati or (kusala) samadhi then?" Larry: I think absent mindedness is okay. We don't need a lot of mind for wholesome concentration. It isn't meant to make us more efficient. These thoughts were mostly focused on practice as the practice of concentration. Insight may or may not arise. In some sense it isn't even important. In my own limited experience insight has arisen only in recognizing hindrances, and even then only on a very shallow level. For me, the value of concentration is in momentarily being free from hindrances rather than entering an exotic meditative state (jhana). Larry #80799 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 11:28 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] thoughts on practice lbidd2 Hi Howard, Howard: "I had gotten the impression that you seemed to think that recognition implies permanence, and that is what I addressed. Ah, well! ;-)" Larry: I do think recognition implies permanence. I don't see how recognition could recognize anything without thinking this is the same as that. You said that, to the contrary, we know that this is not the same as that. I think we know this because of insight. Recognition sees similarities and insight sees differences. But they work together. They don't contradict each other. I also think signs imply permanence. That is another topic but also has to do with perception. Larry