#81000 From: "Phil" Date: Fri Jan 11, 2008 2:29 am Subject: Re: I'm back again! philofillet Hi Robert I think this is a very good essay you linked to. I quote from it Q: So, it is not proper to direct awareness? Bhikkhu: Absolutely not. When we begin to develop awareness we have so much accumulated wrong understanding that we cannot help trying to direct the show Ph: I read this and say fine, but then I read, as I did in my notes the other day, A. Sujin saying "Is there seeing now? Study it, or panna cannot develop." I get mixed signals - I think she is often prompting us to have awareness of realities, when at other times it is all about awareness arising purely due to conditions. As I was saying the other day to Nina, I think it must be very hard or impossible for people with our "accumulated wrong understanding" not to try to direct awareness when we are told things like "Is there seeing now? Study it, or panna cannot develop." I imagine people - as I did - trying to make out visible object as apart from seeing and thinking, trying to be aware of visible object, trying to be aware of visible object...and really that is such a subtle awareness that I frankly doubt it is possible for most of us. I just think there is too much trying to have fleeting moments of awareness implicit in Acharn Sujin's approach. I don't know if this topic has come up in discussions, but perhaps you could bring it up sometime. How on earth does one *not* direct the show when one is told "Is there seeing now? Study it, or panna cannot develop (grow?)?" I was always walking around trying to experience visible object after reading things like the above. And I imagine I'm not the only one. Perhaps she should be more careful in her wording... Metta, Phil #81001 From: "Phil" Date: Fri Jan 11, 2008 2:41 am Subject: Form and visible object (Rob M) philofillet Hi Rob M (and all) I see you're around now, Rob, so let me grab you. The last time we met at the hotel in Tokyo I was asking you about "form" in the suttas. I was confused because my defilements are triggered, for example, by seeing what I called "a flash of thigh." (In winter, mini-skirts and boots abound, and these things happen.) I couldn't understand how lust could be triggered by a pure "visible object" rather than a "flash of thigh", which I know is a concept. And you were talking about the teaching on something related to visible object being a recent teaching, I think of Ledi Sayadaw. Do you remember what I'm referring to? If so, could you refresh my memory. Were we saying that "form" as external ayatana *is* in fact "flash of thigh?" I guess not, since "flash of thigh" cannot be rupa, and form/external ayatana must be rupa. I think this is a hugely important point for me to work out. I don't understand how lust, for example, can be triggered by a fleeting "visible object" that has no conceptual content that would trigger lust. Thanks. BTW, the other day I was reading your letter to your friend's widow again, and I thought it was very good. Have you heard from her recently? How is she doing? Metta, Phil #81002 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 11, 2008 2:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: I'm back again! nilovg Hi Phil, You bring up good points. Op 11-jan-2008, om 11:29 heeft Phil het volgende geschreven: > I think it must be very hard or > impossible for people with our "accumulated wrong understanding" > not to try to direct awareness when we are told things like "Is > there seeing now? Study it, or panna cannot develop." ------- N: It can also be taken as a reminder. Listening is necessary, we also heard that sati cannot arise at will. Often she says: 'Nobody can do anything.' We have to understand that there are only elements that cannot be manipulated. Hearing this often reminds us not to try. ------- > Ph: I imagine > people - as I did - trying to make out visible object as apart from > seeing and thinking, trying to be aware of visible object, trying to > be aware of visible object... ------ N: And then we learn that this is not the way. It is understanding, always understanding that is emphasized. As I quoted recently (India 6, my rendering of the recent India talks): < Nama and rupa are different realities. At the moment a characteristic appears that characteristic can be known. You do not have to think about the difference between nama and rupa, the characteristic that appears is already known by sati and pa~n~na. There is no time to call it nama or rupa. Usually people remember the terms first and then they try to find out about nama and rupa. Right understanding knows one characteristic at a time. There is no need to say that a particular characteristic is nama. By understanding that seeing experiences visible object one can come closer to the understanding of nama, instead of trying to know beforehand that a reality is nama. > ----------- > Ph: and really that is such a subtle > awareness that I frankly doubt it is possible for most of us. I just > think there is too much trying to have fleeting moments of awareness > implicit in Acharn Sujin's approach. ------ N: Yes and that hinders. A beginning of awareness and understanding is possible, it is always what appears now. No need to think of subtle awareness. I quote more: < Seeing is the faculty of experiencing only. It sees. We can know that it is dhamma because it is real. This is not right understanding yet, but it is the beginning to know seeing at the moment of seeing. Usually when we read about seeing it is not seeing that sees, it is thinking about seeing. There may be only understanding of the term and its meaning. There are many different levels of understanding. Reality is not in the book, but it is here and now. > Nina. #81003 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 11, 2008 2:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Acharn chah: Ignorance......wrong concentration nilovg Hi James, Op 11-jan-2008, om 4:09 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > N: Nothing I disagree with, James. Discerning means: with wisdom. > > Understanding is important. > > -------- > > LOL! Darn it! You only saw what you wanted to see, AGAIN! The > Buddha also describes the necessity of: conviction, persistence, > mindfulness, and concentration- not just understanding! -------- N: I fully agree with all factors. But often I sorely miss the factor of understanding when people discuss meditation. I miss understanding and detachment. Nina. #81004 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 11, 2008 3:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (73) .. sakkayaditthi ... nilovg Hi Tep, sorry for the delay. I always like it when you quote from the Patisambhidamagga. The translator translates khanti as choice, which is somewhat unclear. Actuality is his translation of sacca, truth. I get these things form the index at the back. If we know the Pali it all becomes more readable. But I see that you made the note: sacca. Op 9-jan-2008, om 4:44 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > Thank you for referring to Sarah's quote of the Dispeller > on 'conformable acceptance' (anulomakhanti). In the Patisambhidamagga > book (hard cover, translated by Nanamoli Bhikkhu), Treatise 29, On > Insight, page 401, anulomakhanti is elaborated. But the translator > used "choice in conformity" rather than "conformable acceptance". > > I am typing this Patis passage below. (The Pali words in parentheses > are my insertion.) > > "Bhikkhus, when a bhikkhu sees any formation as permanent it is not > possible that he shall make a choice in conformity with actuality > (sacca), and without making a choice in conformity with actuality it > is not possible that he shall enter upon the certainty of rightness > (samattaniyama), and without entering upon the certainty of rightness > it is not possible he shall realize the fruit of stream-entry or the > fruit of once-return or the fruit of non-return or the fruit of > arahantship. ..." > > >Nina: The five khandhas: all conditioned nama and rupa. Before the > three characteristics can be realized, they have to be seen as mere > dhammas, not a person. > > T: Isn't it the other way around, i.e. first the three characteristcs > are realized, then the five khandhas are seen as mere dhammas, not a > person? > I have no problem seeing that the khandhas are conditioned nama & > rupa, although I am not yet able to see them as anatta. I also see > from the above Patis passage that conforming with the truth(sacca) > follows seeing the khandhas as impermanent. > --------- > N: In the Visuddhimagga the stages of insight are described. First > the attention is to the particular characteristics of nama and > rupa, and later on understanding of the general characteristics > develops. There are many levels of understanding them. It is true > that the first principal insight, mahaa-vipassanaa realizes the > arising and falling away of dhammas, thus impermanence. But even > now, if one sees a reality as a mere dhamma there is a beginning of > understanding of anatta. -------- > >N: That acceptance is a synonym of understanding as we see from the > quote above. Understanding has to perform its function. We do not > have to worry: what shall we do or not do. There is no we who can > choose. > > T: If my understanding as given above is correct, i.e. realizing > impermanence of the khandhas conduces the understanding that there > are only the dhammas, not a person, then I would agree with you that > such understanding "performs its function". > --------- > N: It performs its function even at the beginning, even at the > level of intellectual understanding. --------- > >N: Insight has to know not only aniccaa, also anattaa and dukkha. > But these three are connected. Again, there must be a beginning first > before we rush to the three characteristics. Study with mindfulness > nama and rupa that appear now, over and over again. > I just heard on tape: a real obstacle is trying to know more than > what is possible for us now. Thus, it is not helpful to reach out > beyond the level of understanding there is at this moment. > --------- > T: I almost agree. I think one should contemplate nama & rupa that > arise and pass away now so that their anicca characteristic is > realized. ------- N: Before the fourth stage of insight (which is the first mahaa- vipassana ~naa.na) there have to be the three stages of tender insight. If it is not known precisely that this is nama, and that is rupa, the arising and falling away of them one at a time cannot be realized. Nina. #81005 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 11, 2008 3:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Form and visible object (Rob M) nilovg Hi Phil, may I butt in. I had to laugh about this flash of thigh. Op 11-jan-2008, om 11:41 heeft Phil het volgende geschreven: > Were we saying that "form" as external ayatana *is* in fact "flash > of thigh?" I guess not, since "flash of thigh" cannot be rupa, and > form/external ayatana must be rupa. I think this is a hugely > important point for me to work out. I don't understand how lust, for > example, can be triggered by a fleeting "visible object" that has no > conceptual content that would trigger lust. -------- N: Visible object is often translated as form. In the Pali text, the word ruupa is not only used generally for materiality but also for just the visible. Visible object is merely seen, but one builds up stories about it and these trigger defilements. What is seen is merely colour, but instead of realizing this, one becomes absorbed in one's own world of thinking. Think of the story of the bhikkhu who realized that the teeth of a laughing girl were bones and then he realized the truth of dhammas and became an arahat. He knew that what was seen was only colour. He was not taken in by the outward appearance and details. ------ Nina. #81006 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jan 11, 2008 3:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] I'm back again! sarahprocter... Dear Ven Pannabahulo, --- pannabahulo wrote: >I raise my questions in the > spirit of the Lord Buddha's exhortation that we should question, very > thoroughly, our teachers and even the teachings of the Lord Buddha > himself. ... S: I think this is very important too. I'm sure everyone is glad to read your further questions and comments. As you'll have seen, many friends agree with your 'position' and encourage you to share more. Btw, in Nina's reply she gave the example of understanding the meaning of 'atta' as in atta-view. This is very important, as I see it, otherwise we don't appreciate the atta-view involved when we take the computer or lamp for being 'things'. Usually there is an idea of atta-view (as being synonymous with sakkaya-ditthi (self-view), but in fact it's much broader. Softness is softness. Whether we take it for a cusion or an arm, it's atta-ditthi. I had had a lively discussion with Han, our good Burmese friend, on this point here. He had also disagreed with some of us on other topics which may also be relevant to the way we see the world, i.e. the practice. So on the one morning at the Foundation when Han was present, I was helping him to raise his questions and doubts directly with A.Sujin. [He only attends when we take and assist him and we'd arranged this long in advance.] I also tried to make him feel comfortable, rather than 'put-off' as he'd been before by any direct challenges. Han told us afterwards he was very happy with the occasion and the dialogue with A.Sujin. He wrote an excellent series of reports here, not always agreeing with her or others of us. His first one on the point above is here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/74321 ... .... > As you probably know, Ven Ajan Chah had no time for the Abhidhamma.His > view was that the Dhamma is simple in nature,whereas the Abhidhamma was > just a lot of complexities.He also discouraged Western monks from > reading. He understood that Abhidhamma appeals to the academic bent of > the Western mind. ... S: Well, like Nina W, I also found no difficulty in talking to him and no discouragement whatsoever and he knew I studied Abhidhamma with A.Sujin because that's how I was introduced to him by A.Sumedho! Back to the extract you shared, I don't think it's correct at all that 'by focusing awareness on the mind alone, you gain understanding and insight into the eyes, ears......and all their objects.' It's very unfortunate, I think, that any monks (or anyone) are discouraged from reading the Tipitaka, but encouraged only to read the writings by modern interpreters. .... >Most of you are lay people with > work, family and other commitments.On top of that you are reading books > which are not at all easy reading. This leads me to infer that you > cannot have that much time for quiet, and solitary, observation of the > mind. ... S: Perhaps we don't consider it to be of any significance whatsoever. For me, whether I'm shopping, reading, working long hours in company all day with no time to read at all or on my own as now with Jon away, it makes no difference at all with regards the practice. Seeing now, visible object now, hearing now, sound now - they're all just the same regardless of the 'situations' we imagine in our dream worlds. The real meaning of 'quiet and solitary' is that of awareness and understanding. There can be such 'quiet and solitary' at the most unexpected of times, just as there can be 'noise and bustle' whilst sitting alone. i'm sure you appreciate this from all your meditation experiences. .... > So the vast amount of what must be going on is sutta maya panna.There > is obviously cinta maya panna too.But, in the next life (IMHO) all that > will be forgotten.The only thing that really counts is the bhavana maya > panna we develop in this one. .... S: Yes, so who or what will be the judge? Surely, only panna arising now can judge by clearly what the dhamma appearing is. ... > Please tell me what is the point of spending so much time studying > complex details that cannot be applied now in the observation of our > minds? ... S: Let's take that first question which I helped Han raise. Why not read his detailed message about it and consider whether it applies to 'our minds' at this moment. Is there any atta-view now as we speak? is the computer taken for being real? Is there any awarness of hardness now? .... > This is why I still hold practice to be the important thing. I don't > need to study books to know whether mind states are kusala or > akusula.To be quite honest the vast majority of (my) mind states are > akusala. ... S: Yes, it's the same for everyone. However, in order to relinquish the idea of atta, there has to be a real consideration and direct understanding of not just mental states but any dhammas appearing, including the rupas appearing through the senses, the sense consciousnesses and so on. Otherwise, they'll always be 'my akusala mind states' to be dealt with and purified. Thank you again for your considered comments and kind words. I'm glad to see you've continued to share your reflections with us all and that others are encouraging you in this too. Metta, Sarah ======== #81007 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Jan 11, 2008 4:19 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (73) .. sakkayaditthi ... buddhistmedi... Hi Nina, - Thank you very much for the very nice reply; the re-arrangement of the past conversations is useful. > T: I almost agree. I think one should contemplate nama & rupa that > arise and pass away now so that their anicca characteristic is > realized. ------- N: Before the fourth stage of insight (which is the first mahaa- vipassana ~naa.na) there have to be the three stages of tender insight. If it is not known precisely that this is nama, and that is rupa, the arising and falling away of them one at a time cannot be realized. T: I think you mean that there are preliminary or preparatory insight/understanding that sets the stage for successful seeing & knowing (directly) of the arising and falling away of the various kinds of nama & rupa. Is that similar to the kanika-samadhi which is preliminary to the higher stages of samadhi in the jhaana? By the way, what are the three stages of "tender insight"? This terminology probably comes from the Visuddhimagga or a Co. Thanks. Tep === #81008 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Jan 11, 2008 4:44 am Subject: [dsg] Re: [d-l] Fwd: Standing A Young Woman Up .... In My Dream This Morning scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, Thanks for the reply: S: "It depends on the intensity or extreme of such thoughts as to whether they produce kamma which can have results. Usually, by themselves they don't, when there is no harming of others." Scott: Does the 'intensity' refer to the strength of the roots of the given cittas which condition the dream thoughts? I mean, the strength of the mental factors which condition these thoughts might also have strength to be condition for acts. Might this be an example of the unwholesome mental development (for which the term 'bhaavanaa' might not be used since, as you say, this refers only to wholesome mental development)? S: "There was a couple of high-profile case in court here recently in which a vicious attack on a rival was defended (successfully) as having been conduct in sleep. Of course, the only fair arbitor is kamma!" Scott: Yeah, some of these defenses are rather lame and based on spurious psychology and weird philosophy. And true, the fruits of an act will out in the end, settling the matter for real. Its almost like trying to defend one's actions with saying one was so drunk as to no longer be responsible. Not quite but almost like that. Or it reminds me of the story (urban myth?) of the thief who fell through a skylight while pursuing his profession and successfully sued for damages. Sometimes the law is an ass. S: "However, as we read in the texts, extreme wrong views and extreme lobha or dosa can (with other support conditions) be strong enough to bring about results, just as any other akusala kamma patha (i.e. cetana) can which has been accumulated. Likewise, alobha, adosa or panna can bring about results." Scott: I suppose this is more or less unfathomable and best left at that. It seems as if the mere thoughts alone, since they are not acts, couldn't so much result in some sort of fruit. Or, for that matter, such thoughts - as experience - could equally be vipaaka. I see them as constituting support condition for further actions. But you're saying that a strongly rooted dream thought, in and of itself and by virtue of having arisen, is action of some degree and sort. S: "Not sure if this has answered the question (and apologies for the delay - it got 'buried')." Scott: Hard one to answer. And you always get to an answer, which I appreciate and have come to trust in, hence no need to apologise. I knew the reply would be coming. S: "As for the danger of waking 'dreaming', Connie posted a great installment: 393. Just as you might see a picture painted on a wall, smeared on with yellow orpiment, your view of this is wrong. The perception they are human beings is groundless. 394. You blind one! You run after an empty thing, like an illusion placed in front of you, like a golden tree in a dream, like silver [coins] in the midst of people." Scott: Really good stuff. Its funny, this discussion, making distinctions between dream thoughts and waking thoughts when all thoughts consisting of wholeness and humans and things are dream thoughts from a certain deep perspective. Makes the distinctions we make out of ignorance rather arbitrary and empty. Sincerely, Scott. #81009 From: "Alex" Date: Fri Jan 11, 2008 5:03 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy truth_aerator Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Alex, > > Good to see you back from your retreat and thanks for catching up with all > the posts, inc. the ones I wrote to you. > > --- Alex wrote: > > For some it may be too technical. However for others it may be more > > towards the "Parable of being shot with an Arrow" shelf. What is your > > Goal, to know intellectually (which can be dangerous, see the simile > > of the snake) or to have a DIRECT & LIBERATING experience? > ... > S: Scott and I were discussing the characteristic of panna (right > understanding), as it arises in different kinds of bhavana (mental > development). Without an appreciation and understanding of the importance and quality of panna in 'meditation' (whether here or on retreat), what is taken for calm, seclusion, samatha, vipassana, mediation or anything else wholesome is likely to be wrong. >>> Panna in meditation can be described as: Letting go of what is inconstant, stressful and not self - to reach deeper and deeper Jhanic levels. Eventually even those refined and exalted Jhanic levels are seen with the same framework of (inconstant, stressful, not-self). > .... > > > > After all, there is a BIG difference between mere intellectual > > knowledge and ONE'S OWN KNOWLEDGE gained through N8P rather than > > counting someone else's cows. > .... > S: While it's all still 'ONE'S OWN KNOWLEDGE', me and others, my cows and their cows, it indicates there is not even 'mere intellectual knowledge' > about the Path and its factors. > .... > > What did you try to say above? The point is that the BEST and most effective knowledge has to be 'your' property/experience. Reading the menu won't end 'your' hunger. > > The strongest and the best Panna is gained through Samma-Samadhi (as > > well as the other 7 factors of N8P). One of the awesome features of > > the suttas is that they guide towards the LIBERATING EXPERIENCE. > ... > S: Panna is developed through a growing accumulation of panna. This can > only be by hearing, considering and understanding more about what is real > now. AND by experiencing. Reflecting needs something to reflect on. >>> I've asked you before, but let me do so again: What is real now? >>> Stress, Dissatisfaction, Dukha!!! The cause of stress, craving... The cessation of stress is when craving ceases... And the path to it is N8P of course! You get the idea. I could have wrote "Vinnana-nama-rupa" (or in your terminology Citta-cetasika-rupa-Nibbana). Hahaha > Considering and understanding the dhammas appearing as we read and type > now is the way that 'panna is gained'. At such moments there is > samma-samadhi. > Samma-Samadhi goes much deeper than that.... :) I don't think that monks went to the forests carrying lots of Books with them... :) Lots of Metta, Alex #81010 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jan 11, 2008 5:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: [d-l] Fwd: Standing A Young Woman Up .... In My Dream This Morning sarahprocter... Dear Scott, Just a quick clarification on something I wrote: --- Scott Duncan wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > Thanks for the reply: > > S: "It depends on the intensity or extreme of such thoughts as to > whether they produce kamma which can have results. Usually, by > themselves they don't, when there is no harming of others." > > Scott: Does the 'intensity' refer to the strength of the roots of the > given cittas which condition the dream thoughts? ... Sarah: I was speaking in general about akusala thoughts and kamma-patha. With dreams, I think it's most unlikely unless they lead to harm of others . When I've heard friends mention this issue with K.Sujin, I've heard her laugh at the suggestion of dreams & kamma patha. I could possibly bring up the text with her, but we'll see.....Perhaps you can help point out some practical relevance:-). .... >I mean, the strength > of the mental factors which condition these thoughts might also have > strength to be condition for acts. Might this be an example of the > unwholesome mental development (for which the term 'bhaavanaa' might > not be used since, as you say, this refers only to wholesome mental > development)? ... S: Any kusala or akusala accumulates. Usually, I think 'mental development' is just used for bhaavanaa, the development needing panna. I don't think we can therefore talking about 'unwholesome mental development' in a similar sense. Such akusala thoughts accumulate (kamma accumulates) and when strong enough conditions acts which cause harm. A bit like the flood gates opening. Who can say the drips don't count? .... > > S: "There was a couple of high-profile case in court here recently in > which a vicious attack on a rival was defended (successfully) as > having been conduct in sleep. Of course, the only fair arbitor is > kamma!" > > Scott: Yeah, some of these defenses are rather lame and based on > spurious psychology and weird philosophy. And true, the fruits of an > act will out in the end, settling the matter for real. Its almost > like trying to defend one's actions with saying one was so drunk as to > no longer be responsible. Not quite but almost like that. Or it > reminds me of the story (urban myth?) of the thief who fell through a > skylight while pursuing his profession and successfully sued for > damages. Sometimes the law is an ass. ... S: :-). .... > Scott: I suppose this is more or less unfathomable and best left at > that. It seems as if the mere thoughts alone, since they are not > acts, couldn't so much result in some sort of fruit. Or, for that > matter, such thoughts - as experience - could equally be vipaaka. I > see them as constituting support condition for further actions. But > you're saying that a strongly rooted dream thought, in and of itself > and by virtue of having arisen, is action of some degree and sort. .... S: See above - not quite. As you say, pretty unfathomable and nothing to be concerned about and all the past dreams have gone completely. Dreaming now with no understanding most the time. .... > Scott: Really good stuff. Its funny, this discussion, making > distinctions between dream thoughts and waking thoughts when all > thoughts consisting of wholeness and humans and things are dream > thoughts from a certain deep perspective. Makes the distinctions we > make out of ignorance rather arbitrary and empty. ... S: Exactly. Well put. Metta, Sarah ========== #81011 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Fri Jan 11, 2008 5:14 am Subject: Re: [d-l] Fwd: Standing A Young Woman Up .... In My Dream This Morning abhidhammika Dear Sarah, Nina, Scott D, Howard, Phil, Mike N, Jon, Chris F, Bob K How are you? Happy New Year! Sarah asked: "Could you give a link or a quote from any message of mine which suggests (a) "trying to banish it[Right Concentration] from the Noble Eightfold Path"(?). I'd like to see where I could have given you such an impression." Sorry, Sarah, I forgot the link where you tarnished concentration. What I remember, though, is that I was forced to consult PTS Pali- English Dictionary to double-check the definition of the term 'samaadhi'. I wanted to give you a benefit of doubt, and did not want to believe what you were saying about concentration in your message in question. But, PTS Pali-English Dictionary defines the term 'samaadhi' as concentration. That was how you gave me the impression that you were trying to banish concentration from the Noble Eightfold Path. However, if it has never been your intention to either tarnish concentration or banish it from the Noble Eightfold Path, you are very welcome to formally declare your position here on DSG for all to read. Sarah also asked: "Also, did you see my earlier response to your previous message? http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/80778" I will reply to your response message after writing replies to Nina's messages. I have a backlog of responses to make to her questions. Apologies to Nina and to you! With regards, Suan www.bodhiology.org #81012 From: "Alex" Date: Fri Jan 11, 2008 5:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Absorption 'Concentration' Vs Buddha's wise Jhanic Ecstasy truth_aerator Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > > ... > > > S: No one *does* Jhana in anyway! Just conditioned states arising > > and falling away, Alex. No atta anywhere to be found or anything to > > *do*. > > >A: You are mistaking my conventional speech for absolute one. With this, > > you'll misinterpret all or most of my posts. > ... > S: In that case let's talk absolute dhammas for a change. In absolute terms, what do you mean when you say 'do Jhana'? Who or what 'does Jhana'? > > I'd like your clarification on this. > > Metta, > > Sarah Who does Jhana and what temporarily happens in Jhana: The Blessed One said, "And which is the burden? 'The five clinging- aggregates,' it should be said. Which five? Form as a clinging- aggregate, feeling as a clinging-aggregate, perception as a clinging- aggregate, fabrications as a clinging-aggregate, consciousness as a clinging-aggregate. This, monks, is called the burden. "And which is the carrier of the burden? 'The person,' it should be said. This venerable one with such a name, such a clan-name. This is called the carrier of the burden. "And which is the taking up of the burden? The craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there — i.e., craving for sensual pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming. This is called the taking up of the burden. "And which is the casting off of the burden? The remainderless fading & cessation, renunciation, relinquishment, release, & letting go of that very craving. This is called the casting off of the burden." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.022.than.html In Jhana you temporarily remove the hindrances, the craving toward 5 aggregates, set up Jhana factors and the bliss is proportional to the amount of letting go. Regarding the "Absolute" terms. I have suspicions that this "philosophizing" was not meant to be done by the Buddha. Remember, thoughts such as "Do I exist? Do I not exist, Am I? Am I not?" (mn2) are not profitable. Rather, thoughts dealing with 4NT ARE. Lots of Metta, Alex #81013 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jan 11, 2008 12:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Form and visible object (Rob M) upasaka_howard Hi, Phil (and Rob) - In a message dated 1/11/2008 5:41:29 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, philco777@... writes: Hi Rob M (and all) I see you're around now, Rob, so let me grab you. The last time we met at the hotel in Tokyo I was asking you about "form" in the suttas. I was confused because my defilements are triggered, for example, by seeing what I called "a flash of thigh." (In winter, mini-skirts and boots abound, and these things happen.) I couldn't understand how lust could be triggered by a pure "visible object" rather than a "flash of thigh", which I know is a concept. And you were talking about the teaching on something related to visible object being a recent teaching, I think of Ledi Sayadaw. Do you remember what I'm referring to? If so, could you refresh my memory. Were we saying that "form" as external ayatana *is* in fact "flash of thigh?" I guess not, since "flash of thigh" cannot be rupa, and form/external ayatana must be rupa. I think this is a hugely important point for me to work out. I don't understand how lust, for example, can be triggered by a fleeting "visible object" that has no conceptual content that would trigger lust. ------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: In the Honeyball Sutta, the Buddha taught the following: - - - - - - - - - - "Dependent on eye & forms, eye-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition, there is feeling. What one feels, one perceives (labels in the mind). What one perceives, one thinks about. What one thinks about, one complicates. Based on what a person complicates, the perceptions & categories of complication assail him/her with regard to past, present, & future forms cognizable via the eye." - - - - - - - - - - My opinion: The "flash of thigh" is a subsequent characterization of a sight (on DSG called a "visible object"). That sight is one of several conditions (a basic one) that leads to desire. A variety of mental operations and inclinations lead from that sight to a reactive lusting. From the sight comes feeling and then recognition (sa~n~na) of the sight as a "scene" involving a thigh, and one's predilections build on that recognition with discursive thinking and all sorts of associations from the past and present and imaginations of the future, complicating and proliferating and generating lust. The original sight is just a starting point. --------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks. BTW, the other day I was reading your letter to your friend's widow again, and I thought it was very good. Have you heard from her recently? How is she doing? Metta, Phil ============================== With metta, Howard #81014 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jan 11, 2008 5:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: [d-l] Fwd: Standing A Young Woman Up .... In My Dream This Morning sarahprocter... Dear Suan, A very Happy and Wise New Year to you too! How's everything in Canberra these days? Just briefly --- abhidhammika wrote: > Sarah asked: > > "Could you give a link or a quote from any message of mine which > suggests (a) "trying to banish it[Right Concentration] from the > Noble Eightfold Path"(?). I'd like to see where I could have given > you such an impression." > > Sorry, Sarah, I forgot the link where you tarnished concentration. ... S: Actually, I know you won't find such a message from me as I've never tried to 'banish Right Concentration form the Noble Eightfold Path' (or even the mundane path). ... > What I remember, though, is that I was forced to consult PTS Pali- > English Dictionary to double-check the definition of the > term 'samaadhi'. > > I wanted to give you a benefit of doubt, and did not want to believe > what you were saying about concentration in your message in > question. But, PTS Pali-English Dictionary defines the > term 'samaadhi' as concentration. ... S: And I can assure you that I've never said that samaadhi is NOT concentration. It is ekaggataa cetasika. Usually, samaadhi refers to right (samma)concentration only. It is the mental state which firmly fixes the citta on its object (whether we're referring to samaadhi in the development of samatha or satipatthana). .... > That was how you gave me the impression that you were trying to > banish concentration from the Noble Eightfold Path. ... S: !! I still haven't seen what 'that' was. I know there was no attempt to 'banish' any path factor ever by me. It's like when some of us are accused of suggesting there's no right effort or no bhaavanaa (mental development/meditation) involved - basically a complete misunderstanding of what we're saying. If you'd like to discuss more about exactly what 'samma samaadhi' is or to quote anything I've said for discussion, it may be more useful. No need to hurry with replies - I appreciate your coming back to me on this one. Metta, Sarah ========= #81015 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Fri Jan 11, 2008 5:38 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (73) nichiconn Dear Friends, Part 9 16. Mahaanipaato 1. Sumedhaatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa 475. "Divase divase tisatti, sataani navanavaa pateyyu.m kaayamhi; vassasatampi ca ghaato, seyyo dukkhassa ceva.m khayo. 476. "Ajjhupagacche ghaata.m, yo vi~n~naayeva.m satthuno vacana.m; diigho tesa.m sa.msaaro, punappuna.m ha~n~namaanaana.m. 477. "Devesu manussesu ca, tiracchaanayoniyaa asurakaaye; petesu ca nirayesu ca, aparimitaa dissante ghaataa. 478. "Ghaataa nirayesu bahuu, vinipaatagatassa pii.liyamaanassa; devesupi attaa.na.m, nibbaanasukhaa para.m natthi. 479. "Pattaa te nibbaana.m, ye yuttaa dasabalassa paavacane; appossukkaa gha.tenti, jaatimara.nappahaanaaya. 473. "Let 300 new[ly sharpened] swords fall on my body every day. Even if the striking lasted 100 years, it would be better if in this way there were destruction of pain. 474. "He should submit to this striking who in this way knows the Teacher's utterance, 'Continued existence is long for you, being killed again and again.' 475. "Among devas and among men, in the womb of animals, and in the body of an Asurea, among ghosts and in hells, unlimited beatings are seen. 476. "There are many beatings in hell for an oppressed one who has gone to a nether realm. Even among the devas there is no protection. There is nothing superior to the happiness of quenching. 477. "Those who are intent upon the teaching of the Ten-Powered One have attained quenching. Having little greed, they strive for the elimination of birth and death. RD: Rather would I find death day after day With spears three hundred piercing me anew, E'en for an hundred years, if this would then Put a last end to pain, unending else. (473) The wise would with this [bargain] close, and meet Utter destruction, seeing that His Word, The Master's, runneth: "Long the wandering Of them who, smitten, ever rise again." *423 (474) Countless the ways in which we meet our death, 'Mong gods and men, as demons or as beasts, Among the shades, or in the haunts of hell.*424 (475) And there how many doomed tormented live! No sure refuge is ours even in heaven. Above, beyond Nibbana's bliss, is naught. (476) And they have won that Bliss who all their hearts Have plighted to the blessed Word of Him Who hath the Tenfold Power, and heeding naught, Have striv'n to put far from them birth and death. (477) *423 Cf. Samyutta Nikaaya, iii. 149: 'Eternal, brethren, is the wandering (sa.msaaro) - nor is the beginning thereof revealed - of them, who, hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving, run to and fro, and wander (among rebirths). . . .' So op. cit., v. 431: 'It is because we had not grasped the Four Truths, brethren, that we have run and wandered up and down so long, both I and you.' *424 'In the Nirayas.' See p. 162, n. 1. ... to be continued, connie #81016 From: "Phil" Date: Fri Jan 11, 2008 5:57 am Subject: Re: I'm back again! philofillet > Hi Phil, (ps to Howard) > You bring up good points. > Op 11-jan-2008, om 11:29 heeft Phil het volgende geschreven: > > > I think it must be very hard or > > impossible for people with our "accumulated wrong understanding" > > not to try to direct awareness when we are told things like "Is > > there seeing now? Study it, or panna cannot develop." > ------- > N: It can also be taken as a reminder. Listening is necessary, we > also heard that sati cannot arise at will. Often she says: 'Nobody > can do anything.' We have to understand that there are only elements > that cannot be manipulated. Hearing this often reminds us not to try. Yes, I do appreciate this. There are so many helpful points in your books along this line. Reflection on this line is so helpful, especially after a bad experience, I find, for letting go of remorse etc. As long as there is not a double standard of accusing some people of being too eager to get at the heart of satipatthana while at the same time inviting other people into the heart of satipatthana by a different avenue, I will not complain too much, and continue to listen to see if it soaks in! Thanks also re the visible object and those wonderful bones of the girl walking by. As for the flash of thigh, you may laugh. I remember you also enjoyed when I was tempted by a pendant suspended in a voluptuous student's cleavage. But the guarding of the sense doors that usually arises these days (as in cutting off of proliferation) is a wonderful thing, very grateful to the Buddha for the way his teaching conditions that. I tend to think it will help keep me out of the animal realm next time around, but who knows. Metta, Phil p.s thanks also Howard re the "visible object." I will await to see what else is posted before pursuing that. I want to follow up and try to sort that point out. #81017 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 11, 2008 6:47 am Subject: Lessons in Detachment, Ch. 3, no 3. nilovg Dear friends, Through satipatthåna we shall have more understanding of life and death. We read in the “Kindred Sayings” (V, Mahåvagga, Book III, Ch 2, § 3, Cunda) that the novice Cunda was in attendance on Såriputta who passed finally away. Cunda and Ånanda came to see the Buddha and told him about Såriputta’s passing away. Ånanda said that he was distressed by his death. The Buddha asked him whether when Såriputta passed away he took with him the constituents of virtue, concentration, wisdom, release and release by knowing and seeing. Ånanda answered that he did not and spoke the following words: “But he was to me an adviser, one who was well grounded. He was an instructor, one who could arouse, incite and gladden. He was unwearied in teaching the Norm [Dhamma]. He was the patron of those who lived the righteous life along with him. We bear in mind that essence of the Norm, that patronage of the Norm possessed by the venerable Såriputta, lord.” “Have I not aforetime declared to you this, Ånanda, - how in all things that are dear and delightful there is the nature of diversity, the nature of separation, the nature of otherness? How is it possible, Ånanda, in the case of what is born, what is become, what is compounded, what is transitory,- how is it possible to have one’s wish fulfilled: Oh! may it not perish? Nay, such a things cannot be.” We then read that the Buddha exhorted Ånanda to be an island to himself, a refuge to himself, taking no outer refuge, but to take the Dhamma as his refuge in developing satipaììhåna. Through satipatthåna we can gradually learn that in the ultimate sense there is not a person who exists, only fleeting phenomena, nåma and rúpa. Acharn Sujin asked me: before becoming Nina, what was there? There was a previous life but we do not remember this now. From the moment of our birth we lead our present life, we are “this person”, and we experience happiness and suffering. However, in the ultimate sense, no person exists, neither in this life nor in the preceding life. There are only impersonal elements which arise and fall away. Each citta that arises falls away immediately to be succeeded by the next citta. This can be seen as momentary death and birth. Thus, when it is time to depart we do not lose anything, it is the same as the departure at the end of our former life. In the next life there will be again the experience of different objects, nåma and rúpa, which arise and fall away. It is fortunate that in this life we still have the opportunity to hear true Dhamma. ****** Nina. #81018 From: "Alex" Date: Fri Jan 11, 2008 7:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] This teacher or that teacher VS what the Buddha has actually said truth_aerator Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Alex, > > You wrote above: 'This teacher or that teacher VS what the Buddha has > actually said' > > How about we re-name it: 'A very modern interpretation by various scholars > and students VS The Buddha's teachings as clarified in the Tipitaka and > ancient commentaries'? >>>> We have a difference of opinions re: Suttas and commentary. Some some only the Suttas, some say only the commentary (since "suttas are too hard") and some say both. Considering that only the Buddha was the Buddha, only HE is the most qualified to teach "Buddha Dhamma". If there is even the slightest difference between Buddha and some commentator who never even SEEN the Buddha or his Direct Disciples , I side with the BUDDHA. > --- Alex wrote: > > > Then the Blessed One said to Ven. Ananda, "Now, if it occurs to any > > of you — 'The teaching has lost its authority; we are without a > > Teacher' — do not view it in that way. Whatever Dhamma & Vinaya I > > have pointed out & formulated for you, that will be your Teacher when > > I am gone. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.16.5- 6.than.html#chap5 > > (Dhamma = Suttas ONLY) > ... > S: No. Dhamma-Vinaya refers to the TI-Pitaka, not a new Dvi-Pitaka as some > would prefer. As I recently quoted to another friend: > > >Atthasalini (commentary to the Dhammasangani), Introductory discourse > (PTS transl): > > [referring to the reciting of the Abhidhamma at the First Council]: > > "Thus at the time of the Rehearsal at the First Council, held by the five Sarah. You are quoting a sectarian commentary that says that its own AP was recited. Sarvastivadins would say that THEIR Abhidhamma was spoken. Early Sutrantikas rejected AP outright as not being taught by the Buddha. Suttas are supposed to be the lectures spoken by the Buddha (before Scholastic Schisms started to occur). If Buddha would teach Abhidhamma, it would be mentioned in the suttas. Ananda accompanied the Buddha for like 20 or more years and those discources which he didn't hear then he asked monks who did. And a more important comment. Buddha's teaching is about 4NT, stress and its cessation. It is also a teaching to let go off Greed, Anger & Delusion. It is also to remove the bhava-tanha. To me, scholasticism seems to be a way of consciously or subconsciously to pamper ego and greed for Intellectual Knowledge, intellectual superiority and becoming a "smart person" . Lots of Metta, Alex #81019 From: "Robert" Date: Fri Jan 11, 2008 7:45 am Subject: [dsg] Re: I'm back again! avalo1968 Hello Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Phil, > You bring up good points. > Op 11-jan-2008, om 11:29 heeft Phil het volgende geschreven: > > > I think it must be very hard or > > impossible for people with our "accumulated wrong understanding" > > not to try to direct awareness when we are told things like "Is > > there seeing now? Study it, or panna cannot develop." > ------- > N: It can also be taken as a reminder. Listening is necessary, we > also heard that sati cannot arise at will. Often she says: 'Nobody > can do anything.' We have to understand that there are only elements > that cannot be manipulated. Hearing this often reminds us not to try. Robert A: If there is nothing that can be done at will, what could be the point of a reminder? A reminder is a reminder to do something and, yet you say, 'nobody can do anything'. It is all very confusing to me. When Acharn Sujin says "Is there seeing now?", she is asking us to look, she is giving is a reminder to do something we may have forgotten to do. Even when we know the reality is that there is no "I", in fact, the conventional "I" needs to act all day and whether that "I" acts well or badly really does matter, both to yourself and to others around you. I believe the Buddha suggested that it was helpful for the conventional "I" to act with generousity, kindness, patience, and awareness because he recognized that doing these things on the conventional level ultimately helped us transcend this kind of conventional understanding. Thank you, Robert A. #81020 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jan 11, 2008 3:38 am Subject: Something on My Mind upasaka_howard Hi, all - Something has been churning in my thoughts that I would love to let go of, but don't think I can or should do - at least not yet. I've been reading a book by an Israeli scientist (physicist & biologist), an orthodox Jew much beloved by creationist Christians. (Hey! Nobody's perfect! LOL!) What is presented there doesn't cause me to believe in a personal god or to see anything incorrect in the Dhamma, but it does give me pause as to some (possibly intentional) omissions from the Buddhadhamma - perhaps some of the leaves not in the Buddha's hand. Let me be more precise: The name of the book is "The Hidden Face of God," and it's author is Gerald L Schroeder. He received his Ph.D from MIT in physics, and then worked at the Weizmann Institute, the Hebrew University, and the Volcani Research Institute. What Dr. Schroeder goes through in the book that most impresses me is his detailed [almost excruciating scientific detail!] presentation of the extraordinarily intricate complexity of physical and biological structure and organization that enables this world to be as it is. The more I read the details, the less and less plausible are two claims: 1) the assertion by many scientists that things are as they are due to random events occurring over a huge period of time, and 2) the perspective suggested by the Dhamma that worldly matters are accountable for by kamma. The implausibility of that second claim is due, as I see it, to human volition having nothing whatsoever to do with the intimate details of the organization and details of physics, chemistry, and biology - and these cannot just be ignored even if they are merely conceptual representations of relations holding among rupas. What seems to be the case is that at the core of existence must lie an utterly amazing intelligence/informational activity that is orders of magnitude beyond human or computer intelligence. It would seem that what is variously called "reality", "nibbana", and "dharmadhatu" is not just transcendent to the world of appearance and unconditioned, but also is, for lack of a better term, active intelligence or information-in-action. Has anyone read this book, or be willing to read it, and give an evaluation (either on list, or off list directly to me)? The link at Amazon is the following: _http://www.amazon.com/Hidden-Face-God-Science-Ultimate/dp/0743203259/ref=pd_bbs\ _sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1200069200&sr=1-1_ (http://www.amazon.com/Hidden-Face-God-Science-Ultimate/dp/0743203259/ref=pd_bbs\ _sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=book s&qid=1200069200&sr=1-1) With metta, Howard #81021 From: "Phil" Date: Fri Jan 11, 2008 8:43 am Subject: Re: I'm back again! philofillet Hi Robert A > Even when we know the reality is that there is no "I", in fact, the > conventional "I" needs to act all day and whether that "I" acts well or > badly really does matter, both to yourself and to others around you. I > believe the Buddha suggested that it was helpful for the conventional "I" > to act with generousity, kindness, patience, and awareness because he > recognized that doing these things on the conventional level ultimately > helped us transcend this kind of conventional understanding. I think this is very important. I know people have talked a lot about Th. Bhikkhu and his "anatta strategy" but it often seems to me that the Buddha used something akin to an "atta strategy." I've been studying Anguattara Nikaya a lot recently, and perhaps it's a reflections of the suttas that BB decided to include in his anthology (only 200 suttas) but so many make reference to favourable destination after death, avoiding woeful realms etc. What dreads rebirth in a woeful realm if it is not "I" so the Buddha conditions good behaviour by that "I" in those suttas. Have you come across the terms attabhavapatthilabho? I think it's hugely interesting. I don't have my anthology with me at the moment but I found it in the commentarial note to a sutta in SN 19, I think. It is a term to denore "individual form of existence." I think it is a good way to express that "I" that we know doesn't truly exist but does, in fact, carry out intentional behaviour in a consistent, clinging together way, if you know what I mean. BTW, Robert, your recent approach/tone in asking Nina and others about Acharn Sujin's teaching - just trying to get at what she's teaching rather than attacking it - has been a wonderful model for me to follow. Truly Han-esque! Metta, Phil #81022 From: "Robert" Date: Fri Jan 11, 2008 9:10 am Subject: Re: I'm back again! avalo1968 Hello Phil, Thanks very much for the reference. I will look it up. I keep wondering when Bhikkhu Bodhi will come out with a complete translation of the AN. I hope he is working on it. Nina and others have been very patient and helpful in answering my questions. I am genuinely interesting in the teachings of Acharn Sujin. I think many things she says are very worth considering, even while I still disagree with many of those things. What I have found is that what I read here helps me to look more deeply into my own assumptions about practice, and this is helpful. Thanks, Robert A. #81023 From: "Robert" Date: Fri Jan 11, 2008 9:15 am Subject: Re: Something on My Mind avalo1968 Hello Howard, If you are interesting in a very well considered rebuttal to the book you cited, take a look at "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins. http://www.amazon.com/God-Delusion-Richard- Dawkins/dp/0618918248/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1? ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1200071648&sr=8-1 Regards, Robert A. #81024 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jan 11, 2008 4:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Something on My Mind upasaka_howard Hi, Robert - In a message dated 1/11/2008 12:16:13 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, avalo1968@... writes: Hello Howard, If you are interesting in a very well considered rebuttal to the book you cited, take a look at "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins. http://www.amazon.com/God-Delusion-Richard- Dawkins/dp/0618918248/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1? ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1200071648&sr=8-1 Regards, Robert A. ============================== Good! I certainly am interested. I'll look into that! With metta, Howard #81025 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jan 11, 2008 6:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Something on My Mind upasaka_howard Hi again, Robert - In a message dated 1/11/2008 12:27:53 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, Upasaka writes: Hi, Robert - In a message dated 1/11/2008 12:16:13 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, avalo1968@... writes: Hello Howard, If you are interesting in a very well considered rebuttal to the book you cited, take a look at "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins. http://www.amazon.com/God-Delusion-Richard- Dawkins/dp/0618918248/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1? ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1200071648&sr=8-1 Regards, Robert A. ============================== Good! I certainly am interested. I'll look into that! With metta, Howard ============================== Just to clarify: I'm not interested in the question of the existence or nature of "God", but in the nature of reality. Dawkins' book seems to be ma inly a matter of atheism and anti-religion, which is at most tangential to my interest in this matter. With metta, Howard #81026 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 11, 2008 11:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Something on My Mind nilovg Hi Howard, I cannot say much, and I will not have time to read the book. When one really studies the twentyfour classes of conditions one will see that there is no place for a person or a mind, hidden or not, who has everything under control. There is not only kamma, but there are many other types of conditions and it is amazing how they operate. Nothing occurs by chance, it is all conditioned. Whatever arises has its appropriate conditions. You speak of science and I remember that you do not take very much to what is taught about ruupas, but this may have significance when you read the book you mentioned and are interested in the nature of reality, as you say. Nina. Op 11-jan-2008, om 17:38 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > What is presented there doesn't cause me to believe in a personal > god or to see anything incorrect in the Dhamma, but it does give me > pause as > to some (possibly intentional) omissions from the Buddhadhamma - > perhaps some > of the leaves not in the Buddha's hand. #81027 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 11, 2008 11:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: I'm back again! nilovg Dear Robert, Op 11-jan-2008, om 16:45 heeft Robert het volgende geschreven: > If there is nothing that can be done at will, what could be the > point of a > reminder? A reminder is a reminder to do something and, yet you > say, 'nobody can do anything'. It is all very confusing to me. ------- N: Hearing that nobody can do anything can be a condition not to try with an idea of self who is the owner of realities. ------- > R: When > Acharn Sujin says "Is there seeing now?", she is asking us to look, > she > is giving is a reminder to do something we may have forgotten to do. ------ N: Yes, in the same way as when we read in the suttas about eye- contact, ear-contact, etc. -------- > > R: Even when we know the reality is that there is no "I", in fact, the > conventional "I" needs to act all day and whether that "I" acts > well or > badly really does matter, both to yourself and to others around you. I > believe the Buddha suggested that it was helpful for the > conventional "I" > to act with generousity, kindness, patience, and awareness because he > recognized that doing these things on the conventional level > ultimately > helped us transcend this kind of conventional understanding. ------- N: I suggest that instead of the conventional I we use the word citta. Kusala citta motivates good deeds, akusala citta motivates bad deeds. Citta arises because of conditions and it falls away immediately, and then it is succeeded by another citta. You said: , and this is no dilemma at all when we do not think of a person who acts or does not act. Let us think only of citta and different conditions. Seeing is conditioned, mindfulness of seeing is conditioned. Where is a person who can cause the arising of mindfulness? ------ Nina. #81028 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 11, 2008 11:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Lessons in Detachment, Ch 3, no 1. nilovg Dear Alex, Op 10-jan-2008, om 1:52 heeft Alex het volgende geschreven: > N: Here is the old dilemma about free will, effort, choice, etc. > > This dilemma disappears if you understand that it is citta that > > motivates good deeds or bad deeds. > >>> > > Does the citta has atleast SOME present output or is it 100% caused > by past causes? -------- N: Conditions are manyfold and very complex. Some cittas are results from past kamma and these experience a pleasant or unpleasant object. Then akusala cittas or kusala cittas arise that react to the object exprienced, with unwise attention or wise attention. This, however, depends on former accumulations of akusala or kusala. No determinism, one can learn in one's life and this is a good thing. -------- > > A: > It *seems* that a person can do this or that but it is citta that > is the source of deeds. > >>> > > I'd say Vinnana-Nama-Rupa or 5 Khandas. Or more precisely it is > Sankhara-Khanda that wills, rupa physically does. ------- N: Yes, no person, only nama-kkhandhas and rupa-kkhandha. -------- > > A: The problem I have is not about Anatta. The problem is the way some > people talk, it appears that there is NO chance of changing present > actions. It seems that some DSG members seem to imply that good or > bad deeds are predetermined and there is no chance of consiously > changing towards this or that destiny. ------ N: Perhaps you misunderstood. Learning and development is possible, we all agree. But as you agree, no person, but five khandhas, or, this is the same: citta, cetasika and rupa. And there are so many conditions operating. ------- > >>> > N: When one listens to the dhamma and one understands the > > benefit of kusala, it is an encouragement to perform kusala instead > > of an evil deed. > >>>> > > A: And Bhavana!!! Very often Bhavana IS required. For example if a > person has strong lust, believe me, simply hearing about drawbacks is > NOT enough. One must do maranasati, kaygatasati, asubha, etc. ------- N: Each individual will be inclined to do different things. Like the sister Connie quoted, who meditated on a dead body, and this reminded her of vipassana: the khandhas, aayatanas, elements. Bhaavanaa is more than only samatha. It is also vipassana, and also studying the Dhamma. -------- > > A: Again the problem was that posts appeared to suggest that there > is no > concious training. We have no arguments about the truth of Anatta! > Argument is about 100% determinism or not of the 5 Khandas. ----- N: Again, no determinism. Training, but no person who trains. Nina. #81029 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jan 11, 2008 6:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Something on My Mind upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 1/11/2008 2:13:39 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, I cannot say much, and I will not have time to read the book. When one really studies the twentyfour classes of conditions one will see that there is no place for a person or a mind, hidden or not, who has everything under control. ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: I also don't believe there is. ----------------------------------------------------- There is not only kamma, but there are many other types of conditions and it is amazing how they operate. Nothing occurs by chance, it is all conditioned. Whatever arises has its appropriate conditions. ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: There seems to be something more, Nina. I suspect that the ultimate nature of reality as known by an arahant is radically different from anything we imagine. --------------------------------------------------- You speak of science and I remember that you do not take very much to what is taught about ruupas, but this may have significance when you read the book you mentioned and are interested in the nature of reality, as you say. Nina. ============================ With metta, Howard #81030 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 11, 2008 11:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Lessons in Detachment, Ch 3, no 2. nilovg Hi Howard, I did not acknowledge and thank you for two posts. Op 10-jan-2008, om 16:13 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > I told Acharn Sujin that I was worried about > Lodewijk’s health and she answered that worry is only nåma. I found > this answer like a cold shower, a bitter medicine, but it is the > truth. Even when we understand the truth in theory, we may not be > ready yet to accept the truth. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > However, one might add that rational concern can lead to > appropriate and > useful action, whereas unconcern can lead to carelessness. So, all > sides > need to be seen, it seems to me. ------ N: I discussed this point again with Lodewijk and he agrees that through satipatthana understanding is developed. This understanding causes more confidence in kusala and thus also concern for others. We need not fear that there is carelessness. I asked him whether he still thinks that, there is no person, is dehumanizing the dhamma. No, but, he said, it should be explained in the context. He still does not agree with the way of presenting: there is no Nina. Not the fact of anattaa, but this way of presenting does not make sense to him. As to your post on formal meditation: for the kasinas and breathing, there are a number of things one has to take care of. The kasina has to be made, the empediments have to be removed. For mindfulness of breathing: a quiet place, posture, etc. If you like to call that formal? Formal (Oxford): according to established rules, ceremonies and etiquette. The term is not so appealing to me. Thanks anyway for your post. ------ Nina. #81031 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 11, 2008 12:00 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Something on My Mind nilovg Hi Howard, Op 11-jan-2008, om 20:45 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Howard: > There seems to be something more, Nina. I suspect that the ultimate > nature of reality as known by an arahant is radically different > from anything we > imagine. ------- N: I see it differently: reality does not change, but the understanding has changed. The arahat has experienced at the moment of enlightenment the unconditioned dhamma, and after that when mundane cittas arise he experience just the same old nama and rupa as we experience now. Only for us there is the dark curtain of ignorance, and not for him. Nina. #81032 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jan 11, 2008 7:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Something on My Mind upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 1/11/2008 3:00:44 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Op 11-jan-2008, om 20:45 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Howard: > There seems to be something more, Nina. I suspect that the ultimate > nature of reality as known by an arahant is radically different > from anything we > imagine. ------- N: I see it differently: reality does not change, but the understanding has changed. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: No, not differently Of course reality does not change! We see things NOT as they are, but an arahant sees reality. I didn't imply any change in reality. What I intended to convey was that that the nature of reality, which is known by an arahant but not by us, is radically different from anything we imagine. ----------------------------------------------------- The arahat has experienced at the moment of enlightenment the unconditioned dhamma, and after that when mundane cittas arise he experience just the same old nama and rupa as we experience now. ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: After that he experiences reality, whereas what we experience is illusory. ------------------------------------------------------ Only for us there is the dark curtain of ignorance, and not for him. --------------------------------------------------- Howard: That's right. -------------------------------------------------- Nina. ========================== With metta, Howard #81033 From: "Larry" Date: Fri Jan 11, 2008 3:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] thoughts on practice lbidd2 Hi Sarah, Sarah: "I've let the other thread with the article slide because I think Nina and Howard picked up the main points." Larry: What??? We've barely scratched the surface. But if you don't have time, sobeit. Larry #81034 From: "Robert" Date: Fri Jan 11, 2008 3:34 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Something on My Mind avalo1968 Hello again Howard, Here is what you said in your original posting: Howard: What Dr. Schroeder goes through in the book that most impresses me is his detailed [almost excruciating scientific detail!] presentation of the extraordinarily intricate complexity of physical and biological structure and organization that enables this world to be as it is. The more I read the details, the less and less plausible are two claims: 1) the assertion by many scientists that things are as they are due to random events occurring over a huge period of time,... Robert A: The reason I suggested the Dawkins book is because he deals in detail with specifically why this claim is, if fact, very plausible. #81035 From: "Alex" Date: Fri Jan 11, 2008 3:50 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Lessons in Detachment, Ch 3, no 1. truth_aerator Dear Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Alex, > No determinism, one can learn in one's life and this is a good thing. > -------- Good then. I hope that this is the official party line here at DSG. Because fatalism was never part of Buddha Dhamma. > > > > A: > It *seems* that a person can do this or that but it is citta that > > is the source of deeds. > > >>> > > > > I'd say Vinnana-Nama-Rupa or 5 Khandas. Or more precisely it is > > Sankhara-Khanda that wills, rupa physically does. > ------- > N: Yes, no person, only nama-kkhandhas and rupa-kkhandha. > -------- > > > > A: The problem I have is not about Anatta. The problem is the way some > > people talk, it appears that there is NO chance of changing present > > actions. It seems that some DSG members seem to imply that good or > > bad deeds are predetermined and there is no chance of consiously > > changing towards this or that destiny. > ------ > N: Perhaps you misunderstood. Learning and development is possible, > we all agree. But as you agree, no person, but five khandhas, or, > this is the same: citta, cetasika and rupa. And there are so many > conditions operating. > ------- > > >>> > > N: When one listens to the dhamma and one understands the > > > benefit of kusala, it is an encouragement to perform kusala instead > > > of an evil deed. > > >>>> > > > > A: And Bhavana!!! Very often Bhavana IS required. For example if a > > person has strong lust, believe me, simply hearing about drawbacks is > > NOT enough. One must do maranasati, kaygatasati, asubha, etc. > ------- > N: Each individual will be inclined to do different things. Like the > sister Connie quoted, who meditated on a dead body, and this reminded > her of vipassana: the khandhas, aayatanas, elements. Bhaavanaa is > more than only samatha. It is also vipassana, and also studying the > Dhamma. > -------- > > Of course. Mere samatha IS NEVER THE GOAL. However it IS an IMPORTANT component of training. Anapanasati for example has insight & samatha elements in it. Both are like two legs required to walk. Unfortunately however, some western educated people seem to belittle the "samatha" part and focus exclusively on "vipassana" part which satisfies their rational intellect. But lets remember that Buddha Dhamma goes BEYOND REASONING. Lots of Metta, Alex #81036 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Jan 11, 2008 10:30 am Subject: The Trap of Dissolution! bhikkhu0 Friends: Dissolution of States: All past constructions have vanished. All present construction is vanishing. All future constructions will vanish. All phenomena are sure to cease. All being in existence will be cut off. All becoming is therefore truly a Terror. It is Void, Vain & Empty Like an Empty Village, Like a tumour, a cancer, Like a disease, an affliction, Like a trap, a burning pit. -ooOoo- About this Generalization the Ancients Elders said: The substitution of the Object. The transference of the Understanding. The power of redirecting thought - these Are the Insights following real Reflection. Defining both to be Alike. By inference from that same object, Intent on Ending all - these are insights into the characteristics of Decay & Fall. Having reflected on an object, One contemplates dissolution of that thought, Appearance then as Empty - this Is Insight into higher Understanding. Clever in the three Contemplations: (arising, fall, dissolution of all phenomena) And in the fourfold Insight too. Skilled in the three Appearances: (transient, pain & non-self are all states) The various diverse views cannot shake him. With view of what is Present purified. He infers the past & future to be alike. He knows that all constructions disappear Like a dew drop in the morning sun. The clusters of clinging cease & nothing else ever were. The breakup of these groups is known as Death. He observes their continual decay unwaveringly As one who drill a hole in a jewel with a diamond! Visuddhimagga-Magga (The Path of Purification) XXI As the expert drilling a jewel with a diamond tool only pays attention to the hole and not to the colour of the jewel, so do the meditator too, wisely keep his mind fixed & focused on the Ceaseless Dissolution of all conditioned constructions and not on the constructions ( mental formations) themselves. Visuddhimagga-Magga commentary (Paramatthamanjusa) [830] -ooOoo- And he who regards the World as one who watches a bubble, as one views a mirror image, is unseen by Death - the King. Dhammapada 170 . -ooOoo- When one sees the dissolution of reflection on causes & conditions, this thinking in itself being an construction - a mental formation - the ancients elders (poranas) said: He sees with insight both the known & the knowledge. Knowledge is what is known & understanding is the act of understanding that. -ooOoo- Seeing with insight is always seeing it as it really is: Impermanent, miserable & impersonal. -ooOoo- Sincerely, : - ] Friendship is the Greatest * Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka :-) ..... #81037 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jan 11, 2008 10:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Something on My Mind upasaka_howard Hi again, Robert - In a message dated 1/11/2008 6:34:22 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, avalo1968@... writes: Hello again Howard, Here is what you said in your original posting: Howard: What Dr. Schroeder goes through in the book that most impresses me is his detailed [almost excruciating scientific detail!] presentation of the extraordinarily intricate complexity of physical and biological structure and organization that enables this world to be as it is. The more I read the details, the less and less plausible are two claims: 1) the assertion by many scientists that things are as they are due to random events occurring over a huge period of time,... Robert A: The reason I suggested the Dawkins book is because he deals in detail with specifically why this claim is, if fact, very plausible. =========================== Ah, okay - good. :-) With metta, Howard #81038 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Jan 11, 2008 4:24 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (73) .. sakkayaditthi ... buddhistmedi... Hi Nina, - Thank you very much for the very nice reply; the re-arrangement of the past conversations is useful. [I deleted the earlier post. This revised one is much better.] > T: I almost agree. I think one should contemplate nama & rupa that > arise and pass away now so that their anicca characteristic is > realized. ------- N: Before the fourth stage of insight (which is the first mahaa- vipassana ~naa.na) there have to be the three stages of tender insight. If it is not known precisely that this is nama, and that is rupa, the arising and falling away of them one at a time cannot be realized. T: I think you mean that there are preliminary or preparatory insights/understandings that set the stage for successful seeing & knowing (directly) of the arising and falling away of the various kinds of nama & rupa. Are the three ~naanas (called "tender insights") similar to the kanika-samadhi which is preliminary to the higher stages of samadhi in the jhaana? By the way, what are the three stages of "tender insights"? This terminology probably comes from the Visuddhimagga or a Co. Are there any suttas that define the tender insights? Thanks. Tep === #81039 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Jan 11, 2008 4:45 pm Subject: Re: Something on My Mind buddhistmedi... Hi Howard, - It is unfortunate that your introduction to the book is very brief. > Howard: What Dr. Schroeder goes through in the book that most impresses me is his detailed [almost excruciating scientific detail!] presentation of the extraordinarily intricate complexity of physical and biological structure and organization that enables this world to be as it is. T: Your summary of the book's main ideas should help, I think. Tep === #81040 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jan 11, 2008 11:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Something on My Mind upasaka_howard Hi, Tep - In a message dated 1/11/2008 7:45:44 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, tepsastri@... writes: Hi Howard, - It is unfortunate that your introduction to the book is very brief. > Howard: What Dr. Schroeder goes through in the book that most impresses me is his detailed [almost excruciating scientific detail!] presentation of the extraordinarily intricate complexity of physical and biological structure and organization that enables this world to be as it is. T: Your summary of the book's main ideas should help, I think. Tep ============================== It's just too much to go through, Tep. (Now's not really the best time for me.) I'm sure you could get it from your local library, by inter-library loan if need be. So you could check it out at no cost. With metta, Howard #81041 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Jan 11, 2008 5:42 pm Subject: Vism.XVII,228-231 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga), Ch. XVII 228. As to the clause 'With contact as condition, feeling': Feelings, when named by way of door 'Eye-contact-born' and all the rest, Are only six; but then they are At nine and eighty sorts assessed. 229. In the analysis of this clause [in the Vibha"nga] only six kinds of feeling according to door are given thus, 'Eye-contact-born feeling, ear-, nose-, tongue-, body-, mind-contact-born feeling' (Vbh. 136). Still, when classed according to association with the eighty-nine kinds of consciousness, they are 'at nine and eighty sorts assessed'. 230. But from the nine and eighty feelings Thirty-two, no more, appear Associated with result, And only those are mentioned here. Herein, contact in the five doors Conditions five in eightfold way, And single way the rest; it acts In the mind door in the same way. 231. Herein, in the five doors contact beginning with eye-contact is a condition in eight ways, as conascence, mutuality, support, result, nutriment, association, presence, and non-disappearance conditions, for the five kinds of feeling that have respectively eye sensitivity, etc., as their physical basis. But that contact beginning with eye-contact is a condition in one way only, as decisive-support condition, for the rest of resultant feeling in the sense sphere occurring in each door as receiving, investigation and registration. ************************* 228. phassapaccayaavedanaapadavitthaarakathaa phassapaccayaa vedanaapade -- dvaarato vedanaa vuttaa, cakkhusamphassajaadikaa. sa.leva taa pabhedena, ekuunanavutii mataa.. 229. etassapi padassa vibha"nge ``cakkhusamphassajaa vedanaa. sota... ghaana... jivhaa... kaaya... manosamphassajaa vedanaa''ti (vibha0 231) eva.m dvaarato sa.leva vedanaa vuttaa, taa pana pabhedena ekuunanavutiyaa cittehi sampayuttattaa ekuunanavuti mataa. 230. vedanaasu panetaasu, idha baatti.msa vedanaa. vipaakacittayuttaava, adhippetaati bhaasitaa.. a.t.thadhaa tattha pa~ncanna.m, pa~ncadvaaramhi paccayo. sesaana.m ekadhaa phasso, manodvaarepi so tathaa.. 231. tattha hi pa~ncadvaare cakkhupasaadaadivatthukaana.m pa~ncanna.m vedanaana.m cakkhusamphassaadiko phasso sahajaataa~n~nama~n~nanissayavipaakaaahaarasampayuttaatthiavigatavasena a.t.thadhaa paccayo hoti. sesaana.m pana ekekasmi.m dvaare sampa.ticchanasantiira.natadaaramma.navasena pavattaana.m kaamaavacaravipaakavedanaana.m so cakkhusamphassaadiko phasso upanissayavasena ekadhaava paccayo hoti. #81042 From: "pannabahulo" Date: Fri Jan 11, 2008 7:11 pm Subject: Re: Charts for Ven. Pannabahulo pannabahulo Dear Rob, Thank you very, very much for your kindness in sending me those charts of yours. I can assure you that they are well appreciated here and will be a great resource for all of us. I really do appreciate the time and effort you have taken to send these to me. May you always be well, happy and peaceful. With metta, Pannabahulo #81044 From: "pannabahulo" Date: Fri Jan 11, 2008 7:40 pm Subject: Thank you all for your kindness. I really do want to understand but seem unable pannabahulo Dear DSG members, You are all, without exception, a wonderful group of people.I appreciate,very much,all the help and guidance you are giving me.I want to show my appreciation and gratitude to all of you. I have one big probllem and that is I really want to understand what you are telling me but seem to be unable to grasp the way you actually apply the abhidhamma. My yogi friend here, David, returned from his first meeting with Ajan Sujin in Chiang Mai this week and is absolutely convinced that she has put him on the right path.My Thai monk friend, who is my neighbour, is also a follower of Ajan Sujin. This morning I awoke with a kind of panic attack.I realise I must be missing the point and don't have any idea of how to apply the teachings.My lifespan is fast running out and the sense of urgency I feel is tremendous.I am also sitting here typing with a deep open wound on my leg which will not heal in spite of taking antibiotics for two months and having to dress the wound daily. I am reading, once again, Nina's book "Abhidhamma In Daily Life";but find at the end of each chapter I have forgotten so many of the terms I have to re-read it again and again.My memory is nothing like it used to be and I don't know how to improve my understanding. My friend just keeps telling me that if I keep telling myself that it is only cetasikas that are arising and recognise their impermanence, then in the end this wisdom will become automatic? Is this correct? Must I learn to re-program the mind like this? When some of you talk about seeing visible object as just that do you mean that you analyse what you see? Do you break eveything down in this way in order to understand? I am very confused and wish to have some basic, practical understanding before coming to Bangkok next month.Otherwise I will miss so much of value. Can anyone help to make things simple enough for me to begin this most important work? What should I be doing now - as an absolute beginner - to develop in abhidhamma practice? With humility and gratitude to you all, metta, Pannabahulo #81045 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Jan 11, 2008 8:15 pm Subject: Re: Thank you all for your kindness. I really do want to understand but seem una scottduncan2 Dear Venerable, Bh. P: "...Can anyone help to make things simple enough for me to begin this most important work? What should I be doing now - as an absolute beginner - to develop in abhidhamma practice?" Scott: I can't help but notice that your name means 'Intent on Wisdom'. Sincerely, Scott. #81047 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jan 11, 2008 4:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Thank you all for your kindness. I really do want to understand but... upasaka_howard Hi, Bhante - In a message dated 1/11/2008 10:37:55 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, pannabahulo@... writes: To all DSG memebers, You are all, without exception, a wonderful group of people.I appreciate,very much,all the help and guidance you are giving me.I want to show my appreciation and gratitude to all of you. I have one big probllem and that is I really want to understand what you are telling me but seem to be unable to grasp the way you actually apply the abhidhamma. My yogi friend here, David, returned from his first meeting with Ajan Sujin in Chiang Mai this week and is absolutely convinced that she has put him on the right path.My Thai monk friend, who is my neighbour, is also a follower of Ajan Sujin. This morning I awoke with a kind of panic attack.I realise I must be missing the point and don't have any idea of how to apply the teachings.My lifespan is fast running out and the sense of urgency I feel is tremendous.I am also sitting here typing with a deep open wound on my leg which will not heal in spite of taking antibiotics for two months and having to dress the wound daily. -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Bhante, have you seen a good enough doctor? Sir, this should not be permitted to continue this way. If need be, please check into a good hospital. You must care for your body! Gotama didn't become the Buddha until he properly took care of his. And, Sir, as for understanding Ajahn Sujin or the Dhamma or anything else, please distinguish between an appropriate sense of urgency and panic-stricken distress. The aim of the Dhamma is relinquishing, not obsessing. Please, Sir, relax your mind, and let things be. Don't try to control the world. Feel the tension in your body and mind, and let that tension go. Watch your thoughts, and when your body-mind signals a tightening up beginning, release it. Don't try to attain, but to release. ----------------------------------------------------------- I am reading, once again, Nina's book "Abhidhamma In Daily Life";but find at the end of each chapter I have forgotten so many of the terms ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Is there a test? The best memorizer "wins"? Will the list of terms set you free, Sir? --------------------------------------------------------- I have to re-read it again and again.My memory is nothing like it used to be and I don't know how to improve my understanding. My friend just keeps telling me that if I keep telling myself that it is only cetasikas that are arising and recognise their impermanence, then in the end this wisdom will become automatic? Is this correct? --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Not in my opinion. Such recollection can certainly serve as a helpful reminder and somewhat calm the mind, but no more than that. However, examining the functions of mind on a regular basis, especially from a state of relative placidity, will enable you to actually come to *see* that they are just impersonal and impermanent mental operations. --------------------------------------------------------- Must I learn to re-program the mind like this? ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Is that what the Buddha taught? To reprogram by affirmation and repetition? I don't think so. Certainly study and contemplate, but most of all calm yourself, let go, and simply and genuinely *look*. ------------------------------------------------ When some of you talk about seeing visible object as just that do you mean that you analyse what you see? Do you break eveything down in this way in order to understand? ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Not as I understand the teachings. Investigation of dhammas consists of clear and mindful observation of dhammas with a calm and collected mind. --------------------------------------------------- I am very confused and wish to have some basic, practical understanding before coming to Bangkok next month.Otherwise I will miss so much of value. Can anyone help to make things simple enough for me to begin this most important work? What should I be doing now - as an absolute beginner - to develop in abhidhamma practice? ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Sir, in my opinion the Satipatthana, Anapanasati, and Kayagata-sati Suttas are the chief practice suttas, and you would do well to read them and re-read them and, with easeful attention, contemplate their meaning. ---------------------------------------------------- With humility and gratitude to you all, metta, Pannabahulo =========================== With metta, Howard #81048 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Fri Jan 11, 2008 10:07 pm Subject: Vism.XVII,228-231 nichiconn Phassapaccayaavedanaapadavitthaarakathaa 643. Phassapaccayaa vedanaapade- Dvaarato vedanaa vuttaa, cakkhusamphassajaadikaa; sa.leva taa pabhedena, ekuunanavutii mataa. [(vii) Feeling] PPn XVII, 228. As to the clause 'With contact as condition, feeling'. Feelings, when named by way of door 'Eye-contact-born' and all the rest, Are only six; but then they are At nine and eighty sorts assessed. {PoP p.680} As to the clause "Conditioned by contact, feeling comes to pass": By way of door are mentioned feeling six, Such as that born of eye-contact, which are Considered to be eighty-nine in kind. Etassapi padassa vibha"nge "cakkhusamphassajaa vedanaa. Sota. ghaana. jivhaa. kaaya. manosamphassajaa vedanaa"ti (vibha. 231) eva.m dvaarato sa.leva vedanaa vuttaa, taa pana pabhedena ekuunanavutiyaa cittehi sampayuttattaa ekuunanavuti mataa. Vedanaasu panetaasu, idha baatti.msa vedanaa; vipaakacittayuttaava, adhippetaati bhaasitaa. A.t.thadhaa tattha pa~ncanna.m, pa~ncadvaaramhi paccayo; sesaana.m ekadhaa phasso, manodvaarepi so tathaa. PPn XVII, 229. In the analysis of this clause [in the Vibhanga] only six kinds of feeling according to door are given thus 'Eye-contact-born feeling, ear-, nose-, tongue-, body-, mind-contact-born feeling' (Vbh.136). [567] Still when classed according to association with the eighty-nine kinds of consciousness, they are 'at nine and eighty sorts assessed'. 230. But from the nine and eighty feelings Thirty-two, no more, appear Associated with result. And only those are mentioned here. Herein, contact in the five doors Conditions five in eightfold way, And single way the rest; it acts In the mind door in the same way. {PoP p.680} Concerning this clause also, six feelings by way of door are stated in the Vibha"nga {p.380} thus: - "Feeling which is born of eye-contact, ... of ear-contact, ... of nose-contact, ... of tongue-contact, ... of body-contact, ... of mind-contact." [567] From association with eighty-nine classes of consciousness, {PPf 230} they "are considered to be eighty-nine in kind"; - Of these feelings the thirty-two results are here - Both meant and called "connected with result." Of five of them contact is eight-fold cause, A single cause of others at five doors. At the mind-door also it is the same. Tattha hi pa~ncadvaare cakkhupasaadaadivatthukaana.m pa~ncanna.m vedanaana.m cakkhusamphassaadiko phasso sahajaata-a~n~nama~n~nanissayavipaaka-aahaarasampayutta-atthi-avigatavasena a.t.thadhaa paccayo hoti. Sesaana.m pana ekekasmi.m dvaare sampa.ticchanasantiira.natadaaramma.navasena pavattaana.m kaamaavacaravipaakavedanaana.m so cakkhusamphassaadiko phasso upanissayavasena ekadhaava paccayo hoti. PPn XVII, 231. Herein, in the five doors contact beginning with eye contact is a condition in eight ways, as conascence, mutuality, support, result, nutriment, association, presence, and non-disappearance, conditions, for the five kinds of feeling that have respectively eye sensitivity, etc., as their physical basis. But that contact beginning with eye contact is a condition in one way only, as decisive-support condition, for the rest of resultant feeling in the sense sphere occurring in each door as receiving, investigation and registration. {PoP p.680-1} For of the five feelings which have the sentient eye and so on {i.e. ear, etc.} for physical basis, contact of the eye and so on is cause at the five doors by way of the causes of co-existence, reciprocity, dependence, result, sustenance, association, presence, non-absence. Of the remaining feelings which are results of the world of sense proceeding by way of receiving, examining, registration at each door, the same contact is a single cause through sufficing condition. #81049 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Jan 12, 2008 12:51 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Ignorance......wrong concentration jonoabb Hi James --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Jon, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > > I have a question, though: if kusala can be developed in daily > life, what do you see as being the need and purpose of meditation? > > James: Because kusala can't be developed in daily life without > meditation as a support. The unconcentrated mind can't develop kusala > in daily life because the asavas (underlying tendencies) toward greed, > hatred, and delusion are too strong. The only way to counteract these > strong tendencies of the mind is to develop concentration. I know this line of 'reasoning' is often heard, but it's not something found in the texts as far as I know, so I think we have to consider carefully whether or not it holds. The asavas (underlying tendencies) are the sum of the underlying tendencies that have been accumulated. I think it's safe to say they would be capable of supporting very strong akusala on our part. However, while there is akusala most of the time, it is relatively mild akusala. Certainly nothing like the whole force of the asavas! The moments of actual strong akusala are relatively few (even for those with strong akusala). In addition to this, at all the moments of actual sense-door experience (vipaka, result of kamma), there is neither kusala or akusala. Another consideration is the idea that concentration can 'counteract' akusala. Now it's true that developed samatha can temporarily suppress akusala, but that only happens at very high degrees of samatha In any event, samatha is a form of kusala, so this in fact contradicts your basic assertion that strong accumulated tendencies for akusala means there cannot be the development of kusala. The fact is that kusala can develop in spite of akusala, and strong akusala at that. It can arise without being prompted, and it grows bit by bit. However. if we have the idea that it can't be developed in daily life without some kind of concentration practice, then that would indeed be an obstacle to its development in daily life, wouldn't you say? Jon #81050 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jan 12, 2008 1:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Something on My Mind nilovg Hi Howard, Op 11-jan-2008, om 21:32 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Howard: > No, not differently Of course reality does not change! We see things > NOT as they are, but an arahant sees reality. I didn't imply any > change in > reality. > What I intended to convey was that that the nature of reality, > which is > known by an arahant but not by us, is radically different from > anything we > imagine. > ----------------------------------------------------- > > N: The arahat has experienced at the moment > of enlightenment the unconditioned dhamma, and after that when > mundane cittas arise he experience just the same old nama and rupa as > we experience now. > ------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > After that he experiences reality, whereas what we experience is > illusory. > ------------ We read in the Kindred Sayings (III, Khandhå-vagga, Last Fifty, II, § 122, Virtue) that Mahå-Kotthita asked Såriputta what would be the object of awareness for a virtuous monk who has not realized any stage of enlightenment yet, or for a sotåpanna, or for those who have realized the subsequent stages of enlightenment. Såriputta explained that the object of paññå is the five “khandhasof grasping”, thus, nama and rupa. Såriputta said: “The five khandhas of grasping, friend Kotthita, are the conditions which should be pondered with method by a virtuous monk, as being impermanent, suffering, sick, as a boil, as a dart, as pain, as ill- health, as alien, as transitory, empty and not self....Indeed, friend, it is possible for a virtuous monk so pondering with method these five khandhas of grasping to realize the fruits of stream- winning.” “But, friend Såriputta, what are the things which should be pondered with method by a monk who is a sotåpanna?... a once- returner?... a non-returner... an arahat?" “By an arahat, friend Kotthita, these five khandhas should be pondered with method as being impermanent, suffering, sick, as a boil, as a dart, as ill-health, as alien, transitory, void and not self. For the arahat, friend, there is nothing further to be done, nor is there return to upheaping of what is done. Nevertheless, these things, if practised and enlarged, conduce to a happy existence and to self-possession even in this present life.” ---------- N: Thus nothing esoteric here. Just seeing, hearing etc. because there is nothing further to be done. How the universe works is not interesting, it does not help anybody to have less defilements. We can think of Rohitassa who wanted to reach the end of the world. The Buddha siad that in this fathom long body is the world, its origin, ending and the practice leading to its ending. You want to know reality, it is here, now. You are thinking of that book, its contents, and the reality now is thinking. Is that not enough? ------- H: what we experience is illusory. ------- N: Not all of it. There can be a beginning of knowing the truth, here, now. Otherwise the Buddha would not have taught the Path to be developed. Nina. #81051 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Jan 12, 2008 1:27 am Subject: Re: Thank you all for your kindness. I really do want to understand but seem unable buddhatrue Hi Ven. Pannabahulo, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "pannabahulo" wrote: > > Dear DSG members, > > You are all, without exception, a wonderful group of people.I > appreciate,very much,all the help and guidance you are giving me.I > want to show my appreciation and gratitude to all of you. > I have one big probllem and that is I really want to understand what > you are telling me but seem to be unable to grasp the way you > actually apply the abhidhamma. > My yogi friend here, David, returned from his first meeting with Ajan > Sujin in Chiang Mai this week and is absolutely convinced that she > has put him on the right path.My Thai monk friend, who is my > neighbour, is also a follower of Ajan Sujin. > This morning I awoke with a kind of panic attack.I realise I must be > missing the point and don't have any idea of how to apply the > teachings.My lifespan is fast running out and the sense of urgency I > feel is tremendous.I am also sitting here typing with a deep open > wound on my leg which will not heal in spite of taking antibiotics > for two months and having to dress the wound daily. As Howard suggests, I think you need to get this physical wound looked at as soon as possible and get a complete physical by a competent doctor. A wound that won't heal at all for two months is a sign of a very serious problem. You could possibly be diabetic. If you don't want to lose that leg, you need to take care of this as soon as possible. As far as your friends believing in and following K. Sujin, so what? Devadatta also had his share of followers. This is the day and age of spiritual charlatans so KS fits right in. You are not going to be able to make a rational choice about this matter until your health has returned. I will send metta your way for your quick healing: May Ven. P take care of himself easily! May Ven. P be free of disease! May Ven. P be happy! Metta, James #81052 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Jan 12, 2008 1:41 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Ignorance......wrong concentration buddhatrue Hi Jon, Thank you for the post. However, I find you line of reasoning very faulty: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: . > > I know this line of 'reasoning' is often heard, but it's not something > found in the texts as far as I know, James: That is a ridiculous comment. The Buddha taught Right Concentration and it is found through out the texts. so I think we have to consider > carefully whether or not it holds. James: Actually, you don't have to consider anything. If you have faith in the Buddha then you automatically know that it holds. However, it also hold up to 'appropriate' reasoning. > > The asavas (underlying tendencies) are the sum of the underlying > tendencies that have been accumulated. I think it's safe to say they > would be capable of supporting very strong akusala on our part. James: Yes. Overcrowded prisons will attest to that. > > However, while there is akusala most of the time, it is relatively > mild akusala. Certainly nothing like the whole force of the asavas! James: This is a generalization. For some people it is mild most of the time, for some it is strong. > The moments of actual strong akusala are relatively few (even for > those with strong akusala). James: Where in the devil are you coming up with this? Are you psychic? Do you know everyone's mind state? I think that this trying to guess at everyone's level of akusala is not helpful or logical. > > In addition to this, at all the moments of actual sense-door > experience (vipaka, result of kamma), there is neither kusala or akusala. > > Another consideration is the idea that concentration can 'counteract' > akusala. Now it's true that developed samatha can temporarily > suppress akusala, but that only happens at very high degrees of > samatha In any event, samatha is a form of kusala, so this in fact > contradicts your basic assertion that strong accumulated tendencies > for akusala means there cannot be the development of kusala. James: Nothing has been contradicted. I stated that concentration helps to counteract the asavas. I didn't say "supress" them, I said counteract them. It is only with a concentrated mind that wisdom can arise. Again, this is something the Buddha taught. Jon, when the Buddha taught that some people have an unconcentrated mind, what do you think he meant? > > The fact is that kusala can develop in spite of akusala, and strong > akusala at that. It can arise without being prompted, and it grows > bit by bit. James: I don't think so. If this were true, we would all be devas of enlightened. However, the majority of beings are in the lower realms. Kusala doesn't grow being unprompted. However. if we have the idea that it can't be developed > in daily life without some kind of concentration practice, then that > would indeed be an obstacle to its development in daily life, wouldn't > you say? James: No it wouldn't, it would be a reality check. > > Jon > Metta, James #81053 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jan 12, 2008 1:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thank you all for your kindness. I really do want to understand but seem unable nilovg Venerable Pannabahulo, Op 12-jan-2008, om 4:37 heeft pannabahulo het volgende geschreven: > I am reading, once again, Nina's book "Abhidhamma In Daily Life";but > find at the end of each chapter I have forgotten so many of the terms > I have to re-read it again and again.My memory is nothing like it > used to be and I don't know how to improve my understanding. --------- N: There is nothing to worry about. My husband has the same complaint. It is not a matter of learning things by heart, but of understanding little by little. And then one can remember. It is best to go over the book page by page and ask questions. Take the first question: what is the difference between nama and rupa? Let us first consider this in theory. The realisation of this comes only at the first stage of tender insight. But it is good to know, as a foundation, what the difference is, with some examples. --------- > P: My friend just keeps telling me that if I keep telling myself > that it > is only cetasikas that are arising and recognise their impermanence, > then in the end this wisdom will become automatic? Is this correct? ------- N: This is not correct. Automatic is not the right word. Conditions, the right conditions. Citta, cetasikas and rupa are arising and falling away. We learn this first in theory. Understanding of realities as they appear one at a time through one of the six doors can grow little by little. It is all very gradual. Listening is the condition for the growth of understanding. Realising the arising and falling away is realised at a later stage of insight. Could David tell you more about Kh Sujin's lectures in Chiengmai and would you share this please? Then we all can profit. Even one or two sentences. Listening is never enough. I think one's whole life. It is beneficial if you can share your dhamma conversations with us. Also with the venerable fellow monk who understands Kh Sujin. We are eager to hear more. -------- > > P: Must I learn to re-program the mind like this? > When some of you talk about seeing visible object as just that do you > mean that you analyse what you see? Do you break eveything down in > this way in order to understand? -------- N: Understanding is not a matter of re-programming the mind. There is no person, no self who could do this. We do not analyse or break down things. We *begin* to attend to the characteristic of seeing, hardness or any dhamma appearing now. No need to think about these or analyse them. But first some basic understanding, pariyatti, is the right condition. ------- P:I am very confused and wish to have some basic, practical > understanding before coming to Bangkok next month.Otherwise I will > miss so much of value. > Can anyone help to make things simple enough for me to begin this > most important work? What should I be doing now - as an absolute > beginner - to develop in abhidhamma practice? ------ N: As Howard said, it is best to take things very easy. He gave a good advice. I think, for all of us, we have to accept that it is not possible to understand all at once and to understand quickly. It is a lifelong process. For all of us: if a person is too tense to gather understanding, there is the danger of clinging to a self who wants to know all and wants to understand quickly. It is human that we have such thoughts, but then we can find out that this does not work at all. Being tense and upset is counteractive. I find it useful also for myself if you would ask questions on the Abhidhamma book one item by one item. With your questions you can help others as well. I find it always helpful to go very slowly. With respect, Nina. #81054 From: dhammanando@... Date: Sat Jan 12, 2008 2:57 am Subject: Re: This teacher or that teacher VS what the Buddha has actually said dhammanando_... Hi Alex, > A: You are quoting a sectarian commentary that says that its > own AP was recited. Sarvastivadins would say that THEIR > Abhidhamma was spoken. I doubt it, for the authorship of each of the seven books in the Sarvastivadin Abhidharma Pitaka is attributed not to the Buddha but to one or another of the early patriarchs of the Sarvastivada school. I don't think they ever claimed that their Abhidharma was buddhavacana, and indeed their third Basket is most often called the "Shastra Pitaka", strongly suggesting an origin in the form of written treatises. Moreover, for the Sarvastivadins (and Sanskrit-based Buddhist schools in general) 'abhidharma' didn't mean what 'abhidhamma' means for the Theravada. 'Abhidharma' for the sanskritic schools meant any further discussion of dhammic topics by bhikkhus after the Buddha's parinibbana. If you look, for example, at Vasubandhu's Abhidharmakosha, you'll see that virtually anything can be an 'abhidharmic' topic for the sanskritic schools. Although aggregates, elements and sense-bases are a major theme in this work, there are also discussions of Vinaya minutiae, history, aesthetic theory, and many other themes that a Theravadin wouldn't see as specifically abhidhammic. > A: Early Sutrantikas rejected AP outright as not being > taught by the Buddha. This is a common over-simplification. In fact the early Sautrantikas accepted the Sarvastivadin Abhidharma Pitaka and if you look at a typical Sautrantika text you will find that it will largely be about Abhidharma. What distinguished the Sautrantikas was their rejection of certain doctrinal positions (mostly on matters of ontology) taken in the Mahavibhasa, a late but influential Sarvastivadin Abhidharma compendium. Since the basis of their rejection was the Mahavibhasa's perceived incompatibility with the sutras, they acquired the monicker 'Sautrantika'. But it would be a mistake to think of them as some kind of separate school with their own monasteries etc. The early Sautrantika was not a Buddhist sect, but merely a school of interpretation composed of Sarvastivadins who didn't like the Mahavibhasa; likewise the late Sautrantika was not a Buddhist sect, but merely a Sarvastivada sub-group whose members preferred to focus on epistemology (e.g. Dharmakirti) and Buddhist logic (e.g. Dinnaga) rather than Abhidharma. All things considered, the Sautrantikas seem to have been a pretty dry and bookish lot -- I'm surprised at your enthusiasm for them! :-) As for those who *did* "reject the AP outright", there is a mention of such persons in Buddhaghosa's Atthasalini, but from his description it appears he was talking about individuals, not Buddhist schools. Also in the Pali commentaries are a few mentions of schools called the Suttantikas and Suttavadins, but as nothing is said about their views there's no way of knowing whether they are identical with the Sautrantikas mentioned above, nor what their view of the Abhidhamma was. > A: To me, scholasticism seems to be a way of consciously or > subconsciously to pamper ego and greed for Intellectual > Knowledge, intellectual superiority and becoming a "smart > person". No doubt it can be, but do you think this is anything more than trivially true? It seems to me that any kind of effort aimed at self-improvement -- body-building, learning a musical instrument, developing the jhanas etc. -- *might* be prompted, at least in part, by a wish to pamper the ego, a greed for some superior state, or an ambition to make oneself better than others. In Thailand one sometimes hears forest monks banging on about the conceit of city-dwelling scholar monks, with the implication that their own scriptural ignorance and contempt for pariyatti renders them immune to this particular fetter. But of course it does nothing of the kind, since for the puthujjana there is nothing at all about himself that cannot become the object of one kind of conceit or another. If he is accomplished in any field at all it can become the basis of the "I am better than..." conceit (seyyo'ham'asmi maana). I have known forest monks, for example, who were extraordinarily conceited about their skill in crocheting almsbowl covers or about the fact that their teacher was such-&-such famous ajahn. Likewise, if the puthujjana becomes conscious of some lack of accomplishment in comparison with another person, then this can become the basis of the "I am inferior to..." conceit (hiino' ham' asmi maana), which is just as much a fetter as the "I am better than..." conceit. Best wishes, Dhammanando P.S. I vaguely recall that their were some posts from a few weeks back that I didn't reply to. I'm sorry about this, but I was offline for a while because of a computer breakdown. The DSG members, Sukin, Christine, Robert K., and Ivan, along with some members of E-sangha, very generously got up a collection and bought me a new computer. I don't have time to read through all the digests that I missed during my absence, but if there are any past posts to which an answer is desired, please e-mail me with the message number. Thanks! #81055 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jan 12, 2008 3:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: This teacher or that teacher VS what the Buddha has actually said nilovg Venerable Dhammanando, I am glad you mentioned this, so that I can anumodana in their generosity. I very much enjoyed your well documented answer to Alex. with respect, Nina. Op 12-jan-2008, om 11:57 heeft dhammanando@... het volgende geschreven: > The DSG members, Sukin, Christine, Robert K., and Ivan, > along with some members of E-sangha, very generously got up a > collection and > bought me a new computer. #81056 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Sat Jan 12, 2008 5:03 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (73) nichiconn dear friends, Part 10 16. Mahaanipaato 1. Sumedhaatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa 480. "Ajjeva taatabhinikkhamissa.m, bhogehi ki.m asaarehi; nibbinnaa me kaamaa, vantasamaa taalavatthukataa. 481. "Saa ceva.m bha.nati pitaramaniikaratto, ca yassa saa dinnaa; upayaasi vaara.navate, vaareyyamupa.t.thite kaale. 482. "Atha asitanicitamuduke, kese khaggena chindiya sumedhaa; paasaada.m pidahitvaa, pa.thamajjhaana.m samaapajji. 483. "Saa ca tahi.m samaapannaa, aniikaratto ca aagato nagara.m; paasaade ca sumedhaa, aniccasa~n~na.m subhaaveti. 484. "Saa ca manasi karoti, aniikaratto ca aaruhii turita.m; ma.nikanakabhuusita"ngo, kata~njalii yaacati sumedha.m. 478. "This very day, father, I shall renounce [the world]. What [have I to do] with unsubstantial enjoyments? I am disgusted with sensual pleasures. They are like vomit, made like the base of a palm tree." 479. In this way she spoke to her father, and at the same time Anikaratta, to whom whe was betrothed, surrounded by young men, came to the marriage at the appointed time. 480. Then Sumedhaa cut off her black, thick, soft hair with a knife, closed the palace [door], and entered the first absorption state. 481. Just as she entered it, Anikaratta arrived at the city. In that very place, Sumedhaa thoroughly developed the perception of impermanence. 482. Just as she was being attentive, Anikaratta when up [into the palace] quickly. With his body adorned with jewels and gold, with raised hands together, he begged Sumedhaa: RD: This day, my father, will I get me forth! I'll naught of empty riches! Sense-desires Repel and sicken me, and are become E'en as the stump where once hath stood a palm.' (478) So spake she to her father. Now the King, Anikaratta, on his way to woo His youthful bride's consent, drew near At the appointed time. But Sumedhaa (479) Let down the soft black masses of her hair And with a dagger cut them off. Then closed The door that led to her own terraced rooms, And forthwith to First Jhana-rapture won. (480) There sat she lost in ecstasy, the while Anikaratta reached the capital. Then she fell musing on impermanence, Developing the thought. *425 Then is she ware (481) The while Anikaratta swiftly mounts The palace steps, in brave array of gems And gold, and bowing low woos Sumedhaa. (482) *425 The Commentary holds she went on to the other 'signs' - Ill, or Sorrow, and Soullessness. --- to be continued, connie #81057 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jan 12, 2008 5:55 am Subject: Lessons in Detachment, Ch 3, no 4. nilovg Dear friends, Ignorance is like a black curtain, it conceals the characteristics of impermanence, dukkha and anattå. There are three ways of wrong thinking that prevent us from seeing the truth. Clinging to the postures of walking, standing, sitting and lying down prevent us from realizing the arising and falling away of the rúpas of the body. We think, for example, of ourselves as sitting. It is saññå which remembers that we are sitting, but we do not realize that what we take for the body which sits consists of rúpas that arise and fall away. Secondly, we are misled by the continuity or succession (santati) of nåma and of rúpa. They arise and fall away immediately to be followed by a succeeding one and therefore we think that they are lasting. It seems that we are seeing people, and that seeing lasts, but in reality many cittas arise and fall away succeeding one another. It seems that paying attention to shape and form occurs at the same time as seeing, but these are different moments. We read in the Gradual Sayings, Book of Ones (I, V, 8, translated in Wheel no. 155-158) that the Buddha said: “No other thing do I know, O monks, that so quickly changes as the mind: Inasmuch that it is not easy to give an illustration for the mind's quick change.” We believe that we see persons, and this prevents us from realizing the impermanence of visible object. Thirdly, we are also misled by remembrance of a “group”, gaùa saññå. We experience nåmas as a group, a whole, and rúpas as a group. We see only a “whole” of different dhammas. We cling to the idea of a person who exists, whereas in reality a person is only citta, cetasika and rúpa which arise and fall away immediately. ****** Nina. #81058 From: "Alex" Date: Sat Jan 12, 2008 6:22 am Subject: Re: This teacher or that teacher VS what the Buddha has actually said truth_aerator Hi Bhante Dhammanando, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, dhammanando@... wrote: > > Hi Alex, > > No doubt it can be, but do you think this is anything more than trivially true? > It seems to me that any kind of effort aimed at self-improvement -- > body-building, learning a musical instrument, developing the jhanas etc. -- > *might* be prompted, at least in part, by a wish to pamper the ego, a greed for > some superior state, or an ambition to make oneself better than others. >>>> While I agree with most, when it comes to Jhana the issue is not as simple. When one starts to reach deeper and deeper levels in the framedwork of Buddhist teaching, the Asavas start to fade and so is the delusion of the ego. >>>>>>>> > In Thailand one sometimes hears forest monks banging on about the conceit of city-dwelling scholar monks, with the implication that their own scriptural ignorance and contempt for pariyatti renders them immune to this particular fetter. >>> I am not advocating being an "ignorant bliss bunny" . All I am saying is that reading Dhamma books is NOT an end in itself. A dedicated person can finish most of the suttas in 4 month or so, after which serious practice should start. Thank you very much for this wonderful reply. Wishing all the Best, Alex #81059 From: "pannabahulo" Date: Sat Jan 12, 2008 6:30 am Subject: Re: Thank you all for your kindness. I really do want to understand but... pannabahulo Dear Howard, Thank you for your very kind and helpful letter. And I will certainly re-read those suttas and study them carefully in the light of what I am now beginning to learn. Thank you too for your concern over my health.By way of the monk's hospital in Chiang Mai I have access to all the facilities of the University Hospital. The problem is that the vascular specialist who really knows about tis stuff has been away for the last two appointments.I have seen a younger doctor who - although good - like me cannot understand why the wound is not healing.On Monday my neighbour will phone the hospital (Which is 60+ kms away) and find out when the specialist is there. In the meantime, I must just bear with it as he is the top specialist in Chiang Mai and other doctors defer to him. Thank you once again Howard. With metta and every blessing, Pannabahulo #81060 From: "rahula_80" Date: Sat Jan 12, 2008 7:20 am Subject: Kathavatthu XIX.5 rahula_80 Hi, Kathavatthu 19.5 Of 'Thusness' Controverted Point - That the fundamental characteristic of all things (sabba-dhamma) are unconditioned. From the Commentary - Some, like the Uttarapathakas, hold that there is an immutable something called thusness (or suchness) in the very nature of all things, material or otherwise [taken as a whole]. And because this 'thusness' is not included in the [particular] conditioned matter, etc., itself, therefore it is unconditiones. [1] Th - Do you then identify those fundamental characteristic or 'thusness' with Nibbana, the Shelter.....the Goal, the Past- deceased, the Ambrosial? Or are there two 'unconditioned's'? You deny both alternatives [but you must assent to one or the other]. If to the latter, I ask, are there two kinds of Shelter and so on? And is there a boundary or.....interstice between them? [2] Again, assuming a materiality (rupata) of matter or body, is not materiality unconditioned? You assent. Then I raise the same difficulties as before. [3] I raise them, too, if you admit a 'hedonality' of feeling, a 'perceivability' of perception, a sankharata or co-efficiency of mental co-efficients, a consciousness of being conscious. If all these be unconditioned, are there then six categories of 'unconditioned's'? [4] U. - But if I am wrong, is the 'thusness' of all things the five aggregates [taken together]? Th - Yes. U. - Then that 'thusness' of all things is unconditioned. ----------- Can someone help me to understand this passage? I am in the lost. I was told the Uttarapathakas introduce the concept of unconditioned, immutable 'thusness' (tathata). And the passage refutes such view. So 'thusness' (tathata), according to Theravidins is conditioned? Then how do you explained Tathagata? Isn't Nibbana, therefore Tathagata, unconditioned? And the last part of this passage seems to suggest that Uttarapathakas won the "debate", as they made the final statement: [4] U. - But if I am wrong, is the 'thusness' of all things the five aggregates [taken together]? Th - Yes. U. - Then that 'thusness' of all things is unconditioned. ----- Is my understanding correct to say that for the Theravidins, the 'thusness' of all things = the five aggregates? Regards, Rahula #81061 From: "Larry" Date: Sat Jan 12, 2008 7:52 am Subject: Re: This teacher or that teacher VS what the Buddha has actually said lbidd2 Hi Bhikkhu Dhammanando, Thanks for your interesting comments on Sarvastivada. Do you see any important differences between Sarvastivada abhidharma and Theravada abhidhamma? I was thinking perhaps in their understanding of "sati" or memory in general. Also, I was wondering, is there any evidence that Sarvastivada was ever aware of the existence of Theravada? Did Theravada as a sect begin with Buddhaghosa? Is there any evidence that Buddhaghosa or his early commentators were aware of Sanskrit based schools? Did Ashoka come across any Theravadins in his travels? Larry #81062 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jan 12, 2008 7:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: to James. Thank you all for your kindness. I really do want to understand but seem unable nilovg Hi James, Op 12-jan-2008, om 10:27 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > As far as your friends believing in and following K. Sujin, so > what? Devadatta also had his share of followers. This is the day > and age of spiritual charlatans so KS fits right in. -------- N: I understand that you do not agree with Kh Sujin, and of course you can express your disagreement. But it is best to express this in an unemotional way. Then you will be more successful in conveying your opinions to others. Nina. #81063 From: "Phil" Date: Sat Jan 12, 2008 8:06 am Subject: Re: Thank you all for your help. I really want to understand but seem unable philofillet Dear Ven Pannabahula > This morning I awoke with a kind of panic attack.I realise I must be > missing the point and don't have any idea of how to apply the > teachings.My lifespan is fast running out and the sense of urgency I > feel is tremendous. I join everyone in wishing you well. I feel that a very warm, compassionate energy emenates from your posts, so I think you *are* getting the point. As you know, the Buddha defined the wise man thus: "His action marks the fool, his action marks the wise person, O monks. Wisdom shines forth in behaviour. By three things the fool can be known: by bad conduct of body, speech and mind. By three things the wise person can be known: by good conduct of body, speech and mind." (AN III,2) A. Sujin of course realizes this as well, but she very often teaches about very deep levels of panna and I don't think a sense of urgency helps us approach them, not in this one lifetime. But a sense of urgency can keep us on track with respect to the kind of wisdom the Buddha teaches about above! I have a feelng (though I can't know for sure, of course) that you are doing well in this respect! Of course those deep levels of wisdom taught in Abhidhamma are ultimately the most liberating, but there is no hurrying them. A. Sujin herself said once "the shortcut is lobha" and I hope she and her students and all of us can remember that. Get well soon, Ven Pannabahulo Metta, Phil Date: Sat Jan 12, 2008 8:13 am Subject: Vijnanavada [Re: [dsg] Re: Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (3)] philofillet Hi Sarah > > BTW, how long does each 'dhamma' lasts? > ... > Each dhamma is far quicker than anything we can describe. However, visible > object which appears now has a characteristic which can be known. As the > panna grows, the impermanence of visible object can be known too. When you have a moment (no hurry whatsoever) could you post a few thoughts on this point in the "form and visible object" thread I started yesterday. I don't recall having hear that one of the external ayatanas (visible object) is different from the others in any way, but it seems to make sense, from common sense only. And is it the characteristic that is known or the nimitta of the characteristic that has already fallen away? I found that when A. Sujin suddenly announced the latter (Nina, who has heard her for so long said "this is new!") it was puzzling. I guess that's another topic that I should bring up on its own someday, since it was one of the factors that led to me having doubts about her approach to satipatthana. But I have typed this out, so I will leave it for now. Thanks Sarah. I'll be away for a few days, so really no hurry. Metta, Phil #81065 From: "m. nease" Date: Sat Jan 12, 2008 10:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: This teacher or that teacher VS what the Buddha has actually said m_nease Bhante, Nina, Sukin, Christine, Robert K., and Ivan (et al.), Ditto! Thanks very much all. Ven. Dhammanando's contributions here and elsewhere are priceless IMHO. mike Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Venerable Dhammanando, > I am glad you mentioned this, so that I can anumodana in their > generosity. > I very much enjoyed your well documented answer to Alex. > with respect, > Nina. #81066 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jan 12, 2008 12:04 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (73) .. sakkayaditthi ... nilovg Hi Tep, Op 12-jan-2008, om 1:24 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > T: I think you mean that there are preliminary or preparatory > insights/understandings that set the stage for successful seeing & > knowing (directly) of the arising and falling away of the various > kinds of nama & rupa. Are the three ~naanas (called "tender > insights") similar to the kanika-samadhi which is preliminary to the > higher stages of samadhi in the jhaana? ------- N: Kanika samadhi is momentary concentration, but its use in the different contexts is a study apart. The three insight stages are not similar to concentration. They are stages of pa~n~naa. But accompanied by many sobhana factors including concentration. I find this in the book by Ven. Henepola (the Jhanas, Wheel BPS 351, 353), useful for all interested in jhana. I quote (p. 54): < Momentary concentration arises in the samathayaanika simultaneously with his post-jhaanic attainment of insight, but for the vipassanaayanika it develops naturally and spontaneously in the course of his insight pactice without having to fix the mind upon a single exclusive object. ...> I do not agree completely with what follows: as if he is 'observing them (the five khandhas) constantly from moment to moment'. But there are many good remarks in his book and he gives many sutta texts. ------- > > T: By the way, what are the three stages of "tender insights"? This > terminology probably comes from the Visuddhimagga or a Co. Are there > any suttas that define the tender insights? ------ N: Not in the suttas, but the pari~n~nas (development of insight in between the arising of the stages) are implied and explained more by the Co. to the suttas (for example. K IV). See the transl by Ven. Bodhi. The tender insight beginning at the second one, realizing dhammas as being conditioned are dealt with in the Patisambhidhamagga: Ch IV, Dependent Origination,p. 50. Third stage, Sammasana ~naa.na, Comprehension, Ch V, p. 53. Ch VI, Rise and Fall , p. 55, and so on for the following ones. All stages, beginning at the first tender stage are in the Visuddhimagga. We read in Kh Sujin's Survey, Rob K's web: http://www.abhidhamma.org/ Para12.htm Survey of Paramattha Dhammas. Chapter 30. The Stages of Vipassanå Before enlightenment can be attained, mahå-kusala citta which is ñåna- sampayutta, accompanied by paññå, has to consider and investigate the characteristics of all kinds of nåma and rúpa over and over again, life after life. In this way understanding of realities can grow. When paññå has become keener and more accomplished, mahå-kusala citta accompanied by paññå which is vipassanå ñåna, insight wisdom, can arise. The kind of paññå which is vipassanå ñåna can clearly realize through the mind-door the characteristics of nåma and rúpa, in accordance with the stages of insight which are successively reached. There are several stages of insight which have to be reached before enlightenment can be attained. The first stage of insight is knowledge of the difference between nåma and rúpa, nåma-rúpa-pariccheda-ñåna. Mahå-kusala citta ñåna-sampayutta arises and clearly distinguishes the difference between the characteristic of nåma and the characteristic of rúpa as they appear one at a time. The objects constituting “the world” appear as devoid of self. At that moment there is no attå-saññå, wrong remembrance of self, which used to remember or perceive realities as a “whole”, conceived as “the world”. There begins to be right remembrance of the realities which appear as anattå. Satipatthåna should continue to be aware of all kinds of nåma and rúpa, in addition to those realized at the moment of vipassanå ñåna. When there is awareness of realities, paññå should consider again and again anattå-saññå penetrated at the moment of vipassanå ñåna. Otherwise attå-saññå which has been accumulated for a long time in the cycle of birth and death cannot be eradicated. The second stage of vipassanå ñåna is discerning conditions for nåma and rúpa, paccaya-pariggaha-ñåna. When the moments of vipassanå ñåna have fallen away, the world appears as it used to appear, as a whole. The person who develops satipatthåna clearly knows the difference between the moment of vipassanå ñåna and the moment which is not vipassanå ñåna. When vipassanå ñåna has fallen away, ignorance and doubt about realities can arise again, since these defilements have not been eradicated. When the first stage of insight has been reached there is full comprehension of what has been known, ñåta pariññå. Paññå realizes as they are the characteristics of realities which appear at the moments of vipassanå ñåna. Then there is no ignorance and doubt about those realities. The first stage of insight is only a beginning stage that can lead to the following stages of insight which penetrates more and more the characteristics of nåma and rúpa. When satipatthåna continues to be mindful of the realities which appear and investigates their characteristics, there can be more understanding of their conditions. When one object appears at a time, paññå can realize that nåma, the element which experiences, arises because of conditions, that it is conditioned by that object. If there were no object appearing, nåma could not arise. Thus, whenever there is nåma, there must be an object experienced by nåma. When one object at a time appears, paññå can understand that the dhammas which arise are dependent on conditions. In this way paññå can see more clearly the nature of anattå of all dhammas and thus there will gradually be more detachment from the inclination to take objects for self. When the the factors of the eightfold Path, cetasikas included in sankhårakkhandha, have been developed to a higher degree, they can condition the arising of the second vipassanå ñåna. This is paccaya- pariggaha-ñåna which directly understands the dependency on conditions of nåma and rúpa at the moment they arise. Thus, there is awareness and direct understanding of the arising of realities such as hearing, sound, pleasant feeling, unpleasant feeling or thinking. All these dhammas, arising each because of their own conditions, are realized one at a time, as clearly distinct from each other. They are realized as devoid of self. Vipassanå ñåna clearly knows the characteristics of the realities which naturally appear and it knows them through the mind-door. Vipassanå ñåna discerns the characteristics of the different objects as clearly distinct from each other and it realizes them as non-self. When vipassanå ñåna has fallen away the world appears as it used to appear, as a whole. The third vipassanå ñåna is comprehension by groups, sammasana ñåna. This is the paññå which clearly realizes the rapid succession of nåmas and rúpas as they arise and fall away. When this stage of insight has not yet arisen, one knows that nåma and rúpa arise and fall away very rapidly, but the rapid succession of nåmas and rúpas as they arise and fall away does not appear. At the first stage and at the second stage of insight, paññå penetrates the characteristics of nåma and of rúpa, one at a time, as distinct from each other, but it does not yet realize their rapid succession as they arise and fall away. The first, the second and the third stage of insight are only beginning stages, they are called “tender insight”, taruna vipassanå. They are not “insight as power”, balava vipassanå, that is, insight which has become more powerful at the higher stages. At the stages of tender insight, when there is direct understanding of the nåmas and rúpas which appear, there is still thinking arising in between. However, although there is thinking, different dhammas are not joined together into a whole, into “the whole world”, such as one used to do. > (end quote). You can read what follows on Rob's web, or do you prefer hardcover? If so you could give me your postal address and I will send a copy. Nina. #81067 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Sat Jan 12, 2008 12:21 pm Subject: Re: I'm back again! nichiconn Dear DSG, James: Have you ever tried to talk sense to a junkie?? Connie: What other kind of non-aryan is there? peace, c. #81068 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Jan 12, 2008 1:00 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Something on My Mind buddhistmedi... Hi Nina (and Howard), - I think your comment to Howard below shows a personal thinking that is not supported by the quoted sutta. You seem to infer that either anupassana is the same as "seeing, hearing, etc. of nama & rupa", or the latter is preferred over the anupassana on the three characteristics of the khandhas. Please correct me if I misunderstood you. >Nina (#81050) : Sariputta explained that the object of panna is the five "khandhas of grasping", thus, nama and rupa. >Sariputta said: "The five khandhas of grasping, friend Kotthita, are the conditions which should be pondered with method by a virtuous monk, as being impermanent, suffering, sick, as a boil, as a dart, as pain, as ill- health, as alien, as transitory, empty and not self....Indeed, friend, it is possible for a virtuous monk so pondering with method these five khandhas of grasping to realize the fruits of stream- winning. .... " >N: Thus nothing esoteric here. Just seeing, hearing etc. because there is nothing further to be done. T: With all due respect, I am not sure I'm following you. Please allow me explain. How come you think there is "nothing further to be done" beyond seeing, hearing, etc. of nama and rupa? In the other posts (see below) you told me that the seeing, hearing ..etc. is for developing the three tender insights! >N(#81004): Before the fourth stage of insight (which is the first mahaa- vipassana ~naa.na) there have to be the three stages of tender insight. If it is not known precisely that this is nama, and that is rupa, the arising and falling away of them one at a time cannot be realized. ....................... T: Your quote of the Arahant Sariputta simply talked about the anupassana(pondering/contemplating) of the three characteristics of the khandhas. He did not advocate seeing, hearing, etc. of visible forms, sounds, etc. in the present moment. The sutta says that anupassana on the three characteristics of the five khandhas can directly be applied to develop insight knowledges (all the way to the Arahant level), if the anupassana is supported by sila(virtues). > >N(#80913): Study with mindfulness nama and rupa that appear now, over and over again. I just heard on tape: a real obstacle is trying to know more than what is possible for us now. Thus, it is not helpful to reach out beyond the level of understanding there is at this moment. T: Aren't you contradicting to the Arahant Sariputta's words above? I think the key idea in the Ven. Sariputta's discourse is that adhisila sikkha supports adhicitta sikkha and adhipanna sikkha. Two sutta quotes are given below to support this idea. SN 35.99 : "Develop concentration, monks. A concentrated monk discerns things as they actually are present. And what does he discern as it actually is present? "He discerns, as it actually is present, that 'The eye is inconstant'... 'Forms are inconstant'... 'Eye-consciousness is inconstant'... 'Eye-contact is inconstant'... 'Whatever arises in dependence on eye-contact, experienced either as pleasure, as pain, or as neither- pleasure-nor-pain, that too is inconstant.' etc. AN 4.41: "And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents? There is the case where a monk remains focused on arising & falling away with reference to the five clinging-aggregates: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is feeling, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is perception, such its origination, such its passing away. Such are fabrications, such their origination, such their passing away. Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents. ............. Tep === #81069 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Jan 12, 2008 6:31 am Subject: Released by GoodWill ;-)! bhikkhu0 Honourable Friends: Release of Mind through Friendliness (Metta-ceto-vimutti) Can be reached through systematic & continuous maintenance of this noble wish: May all sentient beings without exception, in all 31 forms of individual existence, residing in the 3 realms, of inconceivable number, extending infinitely in all 10 directions, enduring boundlessly through all past, present and future time, to an absolute complete and endless degree, come to see it all as it really is, conquer all craving and hostility, reach utter harmlessness, and by that be perfused with the ultimate bliss ... !!! The FRIEND of pure GOODWILL (MettÄ?): May I & all beings pay Constant Attention to, Always Aware of infinite Friendliness! May I & all beings keep Examining Noble Friendliness based on endless Goodwill! May I & all beings put enthusiastic effort & energy into developing limitless Friendliness! May I & all beings rejoice in the Blissful Joy emanating from all genuine Noble Friendliness! May I & all beings dwell in the Tranquillity which follows Friendliness made inestimable! May I & all beings gain one-pointed Concentration arised from the calm of vast Friendliness! May I & all beings experience imperturbable Equanimity arised from illimitable Friendliness! The all-embracing PITY of UNDERSTANDING EMPATHY (KarunÄ?): May I & all beings pay Constant Attention to, Always Aware of infinite Pity! May I & all beings keep Examining Noble Pity based on endless Understanding! May I & all beings put enthusiastic effort & energy into developing limitless Pity! May I & all beings rejoice in the Blissful Joy emanating from all genuine Noble Pity! May I & all beings dwell in the Tranquillity which follows Pity made inestimable! May I & all beings gain one-pointed Concentration arised from the calm of vast Pity! May I & all beings experience imperturbable Equanimity arised from illimitable Pity! The MUTUAL JOY: Joy with the success of others too (MuditÄ?): May I & all beings pay Constant Attention to, Always Aware of infinite Mutual Joy! May I & all beings keep Examining Noble Mutual Joy based on endless rejoicing! May I & all beings put enthusiastic effort & energy into developing limitless Mutual Joy! May I & all beings rejoice in the Blissful Joy emanating from all genuine Noble Mutual Joy! May I & all beings dwell in the Tranquillity which follows Mutual Joy made inestimable! May I & all beings gain one-pointed Concentration arised from the calm of vast Mutual Joy! May I & all beings experience imperturbable Equanimity arised from illimitable Mutual Joy! EQUANIMITY: Unaffectable, Unprovokable, and Undisturbable (UpekkhÄ?): May all the infinite number of sentient beings, without even any single exception, in all 31 forms of individual existence, residing in the 3 realms, of inconceivable number, extending infinitely in all 10 directions, enduring eternally through all past, present & future time, to a completely infinite degree, develop Equanimity & become one who smiles silently like a mountain! May I & all beings pay Constant Attention to, Always Aware of infinite Equanimity! May I & all beings keep Examining Noble Equanimity based on endless imperturbability! May I & all beings put enthusiastic effort & energy into developing limitless Equanimity! May I & all beings rejoice in the Blissful Joy emanating from all genuine Noble Equanimity! May I & all beings dwell in the Tranquillity which follows Equanimity made inestimable! May I & all beings gain one-pointed Concentration arised from the calm of vast Equanimity! May I & all beings experience imperturbable Equanimity arised from illimitable Equanimity! Yeah, let it be even so :-) In brevity the 4 Sublime Abidings permuted with the 7 links to Awakening It shines, blazes, lifts, elevates, and protects supremely like indeed nothing else .... Going through systematically each morning keeps all day smiling !!! hehehe :-) For free copy as a gift of Dhamma, May I & all beings be freed by friendliness thereby! More here: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/The_Buddha_on_Noble_Frienship.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/IV/Infinite_and_Divine_Classic.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/Metta.htm Friendship is the Greatest * Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka :-) ..... #81070 From: "Alex" Date: Sat Jan 12, 2008 5:12 pm Subject: Is Nibbana a Dhamma? Is Nibbana really Anatta? truth_aerator Hello all, You know the phrase that Sabbe Dhamma Anatta meaning that "all Dhamma (things/phenomenon including Nibbana) are not self " . Well, "chandamúlaká ávuso sabbe dhammá"[18] (A. X,53 (v,107))? If we would not include nibbána there then why should we propose to do so in sabbe dhammá anattá All things, friend, are rooted in desire http://nanavira.110mb.com/letter-2.htm Lots of Metta, Alex #81071 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Jan 12, 2008 6:26 pm Subject: Re: Is Nibbana a Dhamma? Is Nibbana really Anatta? scottduncan2 Dear Alex, A: "You know the phrase that Sabbe Dhamma Anatta meaning that "all Dhamma (things/phenomenon including Nibbana) are not self ". Well, [Nanavira]: "chandamuulakaa aavuso sabbe dhammaa" (All things, friend, are rooted in desire)(A. X,53 (v,107))? If we would not include nibbaana there then why should we propose to do so in sabbe dhammaa anattaa..." Scott: Are you suggesting that you understand Nanavira? Here's the sutta in question: Muulaka sutta.m (Saavatthi) Sace bhikkhave a~n~natitthiyaa paribbaajakaa evaü puccheyyu.m: "kimmuulakaa aavuso sabbe dhammaa, ki.m sambhavaa sabbe dhammaa, ki.msamudayaa sabbe dhammaa ki.msamosara.naa sabbe dhammaa, ki.mpamukhaa sabbe dhammaa, kimaadhipateyyaa sabbe dhammaa, ki.muttaraa sabbe dhammaa, ki.msaaraa sabbe dhammaa, ki.mogadhaa sabbeba dhammaa, ki.mpariyosaanaa sabbe dhammaati?" Eva.m phu.t.thaa tumhe bhikkhave tesa.m a~n~natitthiyaana.m paribbaajakaana.m kinti byaakareyyaathaati? Bhagavammuulakaa no bhante dhammaa, bhagavanenattikaa, bhagava.mpa.tisara.naa saahu vata bhante bhagavanta.m yeva pa.tihaatu etassa bhaasitassa attho. Bhagavato sutvaa bhikkhu dhaaressantiiti. Tena hi bhikkhave su.naatha, saadhuka.m manasikarotha, bhaasissaamii ti. Eva.m bhanteti kho te bhikkhu bhagavato paccassosu.m bhagavaa etadavoca: Sace bhikkhave a~n~natitthiyaa...Eva.m pu.t.thaa tumhe bhikkhave tesa.m aatitthiyà naü paribbaajakaana.m eva.m vyaakareyyaatha: Chandamuulakaa aavuso sabbe dhammaa, manasikaarasambhavaa sabbe dhammaa, phassasamudayaa sabbe dhammaa vedanaa samosara.na sabbe dhammaa, samaadhipamukhaa sabbe dhammaa, sataadhipateyyaa sabbe dhammaa, pa.t.tuttaraa sabbe dhammaa, vimuttisaaraa sabbe dhammaa, amatogadhaa sabbe dhammaa, nibbaana pariyosaanaa sabbe dhammaati. Eva.m pu.t.thaa tumhe bhikkhave tesa.m a~n~natitthiyaana.m paribbaajakaana.m eva.m vyaakareyyaathaati. 8. Muulakasutta.m - The origin. 58. Bhikkhus, if wandering ascetics of other sects ask you -'Friends, what is the origin of all things, from what do they come to being, from what do they rise, where do they meet, what is foremost for all things, what is the authority for all things, what is noble in all things, what is the essence in all things, in what do they have a dive and what is the end of all things.' How would you explain it, to them? Venerable sir, The Blessed One is the origin of the Teaching. To us the leading and the refuge is The Blessed One. Good that The Blessed One himself explain the meaning of these words and the bhikkhus hearing it from The Blessed One, will bear it in mind. Then bhikkhus, listen and attend carefully, I will tell.: Bhikkhus, if wandering ascetics of other sects ask you -'Friends, what is the origin of all things, from what do they come to being, from what do they rise, where do they meet, what is foremost for all things, what is the authority for all things, what is noble in all things, what is the essence in all things, in what do they have a dive and what is the end of all things.- This should be your reply to the wandering ascetics of other sects. -'Friends, interest, is the origin for all things and they come to being, through attention. All things rise from a contact and come together in feelings. Concentration is foremost for all things and mindfulness is the authority. Wisdom is noble for all things and release is the essence. All things dive in deathlessness and end in extinction." Scott: Here's Thanissaro's translation: "Monks, if those who have gone forth in other sects ask you, 'In what are all phenomena rooted? What is their coming into play? What is their origination? What is their meeting place? What is their presiding state? What is their governing principle? What is their surpassing state? What is their heartwood? Where do they gain a footing? What is their final end?': On being asked this by those who have gone forth in other sects, how would you answer?" "For us, lord, the teachings have the Blessed One as their root, their guide, & their arbitrator. It would be good if the Blessed One himself would explicate the meaning of this statement. Having heard it from the Blessed One, the monks will remember it." "In that case, monks, listen & pay close attention. I will speak." "As you say, lord," the monks responded. The Blessed One said, "Monks, if those who have gone forth in other sects ask you, 'In what are all phenomena rooted? What is their coming into play? What is their origination? What is their meeting place? What is their presiding state? What is their governing principle? What is their surpassing state? What is their heartwood? Where do they gain a footing? What is their final end?': On being asked this by those who have gone forth in other sects, this is how you should answer them: "'All phenomena are rooted in desire.1 "'All phenomena come into play through attention. "'All phenomena have contact as their origination. "'All phenomena have feeling as their meeting place. "'All phenomena have concentration as their presiding state. "'All phenomena have mindfulness as their governing principle. "'All phenomena have discernment as their surpassing state. "'All phenomena have release as their heartwood. "'All phenomena gain their footing in the deathless. "'All phenomena have Unbinding as their final end.' "On being asked this by those who have gone forth in other sects, this is how you should answer." Scott: Here's Thanissaro's Note: "1. According to the Commentary to AN 8.83 (which covers the first eight of the ten questions given here), "all phenomena" (sabbe dhamma) here means the five aggregates. These are rooted in desire, it says, because the desire to act (and thus create kamma) is what underlies their existence. The Commentary's interpretation here seems to be an expansion on MN 109, in which the five clinging-aggregates are said to be rooted in desire, an assertion echoed in SN 42.11, which states that suffering & stress are rooted in desire. Here, all the aggregates â€" whether affected by clinging or not â€" are said to be rooted in desire." Scott: Now, Alex, what was the point you wish to make? Sincerely, Scott. #81072 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jan 12, 2008 1:27 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Is Nibbana a Dhamma? Is Nibbana really Anatta? upasaka_howard Hi, Alex - In a message dated 1/12/2008 8:13:15 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, truth_aerator@... writes: Hello all, You know the phrase that Sabbe Dhamma Anatta meaning that "all Dhamma (things/phenomenon including Nibbana) are not self " . Well, "chandamúlaká ávuso sabbe dhammá"[18] (A. X,53 (v,107))? If we would not include nibbána there then why should we propose to do so in sabbe dhammá anattá ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: Possibly because sometimes 'dhamma' means "idea"/"concept". ------------------------------------------------------- All things, friend, are rooted in desire http://nanavira.110mb.com/letter-2.htm Lots of Metta, Alex ========================== With metta, Howard #81073 From: "rahula_80" Date: Sat Jan 12, 2008 6:41 pm Subject: Re: Is Nibbana a Dhamma? Is Nibbana really Anatta? rahula_80 Hi, From DN 22: "What is right effort? There is the case where a monk (here meaning any meditator) generates desire, endeavors, arouses persistence, upholds and exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful mental qualities that have not yet arisen... for the sake of the abandoning of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen... for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen... for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, and culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen. This is called right effort." See: Pushing the Limits Desire & Imagination in the Buddhist Path by Thanissaro Bhikkhu http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/pushinglimits.html "All phenomena, the Buddha once said, are rooted in desire........... Regards, Rahula #81074 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Jan 12, 2008 6:42 pm Subject: Re: to James. Thank you all for your kindness. I really do want to understand but seem unable buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi James, > Op 12-jan-2008, om 10:27 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > > > As far as your friends believing in and following K. Sujin, so > > what? Devadatta also had his share of followers. This is the day > > and age of spiritual charlatans so KS fits right in. > -------- > N: I understand that you do not agree with Kh Sujin, and of course > you can express your disagreement. But it is best to express this in > an unemotional way. James: I wasn't emotional; I just stated the facts as I see them: K. Sujin is a spiritual charlatan who has a following not unlike that which Devadatta had. I wanted to express this fact to Ven. P so that he wouldn't have anxiety attacks thinking that he has somehow missed the boat. His mind is befuddled due to a continuing physical injury and a history of severe depression. I didn't feel that now was the time to candy-coat the truth. Then you will be more successful in conveying > your opinions to others. James: Well, could be- but I don't care. I noticed that Ven. P wrote a post to Howard thanking him but not one to me. Ven. P may think I am some kind of nutcase for speaking so strongly against KS; but again, I don't care. He may reject what I wrote, but hopefully he will remember it. Phil used to reject very strongly what I wrote about KS, but now he agrees (and we are friends). When Devadatta asked the Buddha to take over the Sangha the Buddha replied, "'How should I do so to such a wastrel, a clod of spittle as you?'" Sometimes you just have to call a spade a spade. > Nina. > Metta, James #81075 From: "pannabahulo" Date: Sat Jan 12, 2008 7:18 pm Subject: Reply to Nina pannabahulo Dear Nina, Thank you very much for all the help and advice you gave me yesterday. I will surely consider all those points carefully. I did write to you yesterday but it got sent to the wrong address. Fortunately jonothan got it in Fiji and will post it on.But as it will be in his name it might get confusing.So I have written this in case. I will study your book very slowly and carefully.And I will e-mail you with any questions. When Ajan Sujin was in Chiang Mai, all the Dhamma talks were in Thai. David doesn't understand Thai. His enrhusiasm was stirred by meeting Ajan Sujin and spending an hour or so talking to her at lunchtime.He said all his doubts were removed.Last night he said that he would write up something about what happened. Since writing that first e-mail, my neighbour monk friend said he would think about what to write and then offer something from his understanding. The three of us met in my kuti last night and there was a very lively discussion on abhidhamma points. However, David still insists that whatever is expeienced in the mind is a thought. He says that even bodily sensations are thoughts. I say this is wrong and that his reductionist position is not in keeping with the satipatthana Sutta or anything else I have read. Nina, I would be glad of your - and anyone else's opinion on this matter. Thanking you again for all your help. With metta and every blessing, Pannabahulo #81076 From: Sarah and Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jan 12, 2008 11:10 pm Subject: Forwarded message from Ven PB: Thank you Nina dsgmods Here's the stray message that Ven Pannabahulo mentioned. Jon --- pannabahulo wrote: > Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 10:37:15 -0000 > From: "pannabahulo" > To: dhammastudygroup-owner@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Thank you Nina > > Dear Nina, > > Thank you for your kind letter and the questions that you have answered. > I am very grateful for the time and effort you give in helping me. > > With regard to one point you ask: > > "Could David tell you more about Kh Sujin's lectures in Chiengmai and > > would you share this please? Then we all can profit. Even one or two > > sentences. Listening is never enough. I think one's whole life. It > is > > beneficial if you can share your dhamma conversations with us. Also > > with the venerable fellow monk who understands Kh Sujin. We are > eager" > > The groups in Chiang Mai this week were all in Thai. David cannot speak > Thai so did not understand the talks.However, he did speak with Ajan > Sujin for about one hour at lunch time.He is also reading 'Paramattha > Dhammas." His enthusiasm comes from his meeting with Ajan Sujin. > As regards my neighbour monk he has no Internet access.I will ask him > if he will use my computer and share his views with you all; but I > cannot guarantee he will do so. > I do have one immediate question though. Please help to resolve this > conflict. David believes that physical pain is a 'thought'. My > understanding is that bodily sensations are experienced by the mind but > are not thoughts as such? It seems to me extreme reductionism to view > all mental events as 'thoughts.' > > I will continue with your book and e-mail as soon as I have any > confusion or difficulty in understanding. > Thank you again for your kind help and encouragement, > With metta, > > Pannabahulo > > > #81077 From: "Phil" Date: Sat Jan 12, 2008 11:32 pm Subject: Re: to James. Thank you all for your kindness. I really do want to understand but seem unable philofillet Hi James > Phil used to reject very strongly what I wrote > about KS, but now he agrees (and we are friends). Doesn't really matter so much, but I wouldn't say AS is a charlatn because there are so many great aspects to her teaching. For example, I think having an intellectual understanding of Abhidhamma is very important (not sure why yet, but it is a strong hunch) and she explains it so very well. I have doubts about the way she encourages people (in my opinion) to try to have awareness of fleeting realities, and I'm a bit bemused by the way her students always dodge around in order to avoid admitting she's wrong, but I think my understanding of Dhamma would be far less without her. Whatever, yeah? I'll be your friend even if you sell your soul to Christ. Metta, Phil #81078 From: "Phil" Date: Sat Jan 12, 2008 11:39 pm Subject: Re: to James. Thank you all for your kindness. I really do want to understand but seem unable philofillet Hi again I also think she places a strange, premature emphasis on sakkaya- ditthi (view of self) when the Buddha places the emphasis on grosser forms of wrong view, and I think labelling all formal meditation as clinging to rules and rituals (I forget the Pali) is absurd. (But certainly some ways meditation is taught these days is wrong, and I'm not sure I would have seen through them if I hadn't come across DSG.) Metta, Phil >I have doubts about the way she encourages people (in > my opinion) to try to have awareness of fleeting realities, and I'm a > bit bemused by the way her students always dodge around in order to > avoid admitting she's wrong, but I think my understanding of Dhamma > would be far less without her. > #81079 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Jan 13, 2008 1:32 am Subject: Re: I'm back again! buddhatrue Hi Connie, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "L G SAGE" wrote: > > Dear DSG, > > James: Have you ever tried to talk sense to a junkie?? > Connie: What other kind of non-aryan is there? :-) You have a point. Metta, James #81080 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Jan 13, 2008 1:36 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Swimming analogy jonoabb Hi Phil Good to see you back, and glad to hear the work is coming along well. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > > Hi Jon and all > > Happy New Year. Very nice progress with my great oeuvre, so I'll > be lurking mostly, but will join on occasion before I get back into > full swing. > > > Jon > Again, I think the idea of a given *activity* leading to the > arising of a particular *mental state* is not consonant with the > teachings. That to my way of thinking is what is meant in the > teachings by rites and ritual: if this is done then the mental state > will be thus. > > This is an interesting point. From what I've seen in the > tipitaka, "rites and rituals" refers to animal sacrifices, fire > ceremonies that kind of thing. But in this day and age I can see it > could refer to the kind of meditation practices that promise ariyan > attainments if one does a 3 week retreat, that sort of thing. I think if a person were to sit with the idea that sitting brings kusala mental states, that would be a form of belief in rites, since there is no cause and effect involved. > As for *activities* the tipitaka is chock full of activities > that contribute to the conditioning of desirable mental states. > They're not linked directly to them in a "zero conditional" way (if > it rains you get wet, if you sit, you get right samadhi) and I don't > think anyone but the most unscrupulous (unskillful) meditation > teacher would claim that. It's all about increasing probabilities > through wise application of the Buddha's teaching, I think. As you know, I don't see the tipitaka as talking about "activities that contribute to the conditioning of desirable mental states". The same issue arises here as in my thread with Howard: unless the activities are themselves (i.e., are accompanied by) kusala mental states, you are postulating a case of akusala conditioning the arising of kusala, aren't you? > BTW, I'm studying the SPD again and finding it very good. As is > Perfections. I keep stumbling when I come across references to > anything like "be aware of present realities" because I find it > contradictory to be told this, when on other occasions I am told > that sitting and watching the breath is a form of greed/delusion > etc. I still find the notion of being encouraged to be aware of > present realities in daily life greedy and impatient too. I'm not > understanding/having faith in that kind of satipatthana, or perhaps > any kind of satipatthana these days. I don't know which passages you have in mind, so I can't comment on them. However, I think it likely that you are misunderstanding what you have read. I suspect that if you look more closely you'll find that the emphasis is on the fact that awareness may arise at any time and take any object, and that the conditions for its arising are not concerned with a practice that is undertaken for express purpose of its development. > I am feeling very motivated in > a kind of practice in which all the objects of attention are > conceptual, and there is a lot of sorting out of wholesome and > unwholesome in a pretty basic way amoung those concepts. Is this 'practice' based on any particular sutta(s) or textual source(s)? If not, there's a fair chance it will turn out to be just another technique that someone has come up with. Jon PS There's more to your post, and I intend to get back to you on it later. #81081 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 13, 2008 1:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Reply to Nina nilovg Venerable Bhikkhu Pannabahulo, I appreciate it so much that you had an abhidhamma discussion in your kuti. Do you have my latest print of the Abh. book, 1997? If not it is my pleasure to send it to you. The latest print can be downloaded from http://www.zolag.co.uk/ under downloads. For discussions the edition on line can be used, this saves typing. Rob K' web is easy for downloading, but he did not put up the latest print. Op 13-jan-2008, om 4:18 heeft pannabahulo het volgende geschreven: > The three of us met in my kuti last night and there was a very lively > discussion on abhidhamma points. > However, David still insists that whatever is expeienced in the mind > is a thought. He says that even bodily sensations are thoughts. I say > this is wrong and that his reductionist position is not in keeping > with the satipatthana Sutta or anything else I have read. ------------ N: Perhaps David translates citta as thinking. Perhaps this clarifies: Ch 1 contains quite a lot of material, and I shall post one part now: --------- Through bodysense citta can experience hardness, softness, heat, cold, motion or pressure. When pain is felt, body-consciousness experiences one of these objects. It does not think. It is only a very short moment of vipaakacitta. It seems that aversion towards pain arises immediately but this is not so, cittas with aversion arise afterwards. Cittas that think about the pain are different cittas arising in a mind-door process later on. When we think about pain or a situation, the doctor, etc. cittas have concepts as object. These cittas are either kusala cittas or akusala cittas. Perhaps this is enough for now? With respect, Nina. #81082 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Jan 13, 2008 1:54 am Subject: Re: to James. Thank you all for your kindness. I really do want to understand but seem unable buddhatrue Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > > Hi James > > > Phil used to reject very strongly what I wrote > > about KS, but now he agrees (and we are friends). > > Doesn't really matter so much, but I wouldn't say AS is a charlatn > because there are so many great aspects to her teaching. For example, I > think having an intellectual understanding of Abhidhamma is very > important (not sure why yet, but it is a strong hunch) and she explains > it so very well. James: Well, I didn't say that she was all bad. Even Devadatta had a good side- that is why he will be reborn as a silent Buddha when he finished his kamma in hell. I have doubts about the way she encourages people (in > my opinion) to try to have awareness of fleeting realities, and I'm a > bit bemused by the way her students always dodge around in order to > avoid admitting she's wrong James: This is why I call her a charlatan. From Dictionary.com: char·la·tan (shärl-tn) n. A person fraudulently claiming knowledge and skills not possessed. KS cannot possibly have direct knowledge of dhammas simply because she has studied the Abhidhamma, but that is what she leads others to believe. She convinces them that they too could possess the same knowledge she possesses if they only study the Abhidhamma and listen to her talks. She just keeps telling them "Look, look" as if she has the ability to look and see fleeting dhammas just from a bunch of chit chat about them. That is a charlatan. , but I think my understanding of Dhamma > would be far less without her. > James: Well, that is nice of you to say, but impossible to judge. > > Whatever, yeah? I'll be your friend even if you sell your soul to > Christ. James: ;-)) Thanks. But fat chance of that happening! :-) > > Metta, > > Phil > Metta, James #81083 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 13, 2008 1:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Something on My Mind nilovg Hi Tep, there is a misunderstanding here. Op 12-jan-2008, om 22:00 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > You seem to infer that either > anupassana is the same as "seeing, hearing, etc. of nama & rupa", or > the latter is preferred over the anupassana on the three > characteristics of > the khandhas. Please correct me if I misunderstood you. ------- N: Also the arahat has as object the five khandhas, and realizes them as impermanent, dukkha and anatta. He has developed insight to the full and has nothing further to be done. He is seeing, hearing, thinking just like us now, but he has full understanding of nama and rupa. He would not be interested in dwelling on concepts such as science or know extraordinary things going on in the universe. These are just "stories", not realities. Nina. #81084 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jan 13, 2008 1:57 am Subject: Re: Vijnanavada [Re: [dsg] Re: Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (3)] sarahprocter... Hi Phil, As usual, enjoying your posts. What a great New Year:). --- Phil wrote: >>S:....However, > visible > > object which appears now has a characteristic which can be known. > As the > > panna grows, the impermanence of visible object can be known too. .... >P: When you have a moment (no hurry whatsoever) could you post a few > thoughts on this point in the "form and visible object" thread I > started yesterday. I don't recall having hear that one of the > external ayatanas (visible object) is different from the others in > any way, but it seems to make sense, from common sense only. .... S: Not only is visible object completely different from sound or taste, for example (in spite of having all being rupas, sense objects), but each visible object seen is again quite different from any other visible object seen (in spite of having common characteristics and all being visible objects). Yes, it is common sense. When we look one way, the visible object seen is different from when we look another way. When we look at the computer screen one moment, the visible object is different from when we look a moment later. If this weren't so, there'd never be the different kinds of identification, proliferation and ideas of 'thigh' and so on, on account of those visible objects, the perceptions and the accumulated ways of thinking. The same, of course, applies to sounds and all other dhammas. ..... > And is it the characteristic that is known or the nimitta of the > characteristic that has already fallen away? .... S: The nimitta really refers to degrees of illusion. When we attend to the signs (nimitta) and details of the 'thigh', taking it for reality, there is a strong illusion of 'something' existing. When there's awareness now of a reality, of visible object say, there is a growing understanding or clarity of what visible object is. However, unless it is the insight which penetrates the arising and falling away of that visible object at that instant, it is in fact a 'shadow' or 'image' of visible object appearing. It is still the characteristic of the reality which appears. The talk about nimitta is not meant to distract from the direct understanding of realities. .... >I found that when A. > Sujin suddenly announced the latter (Nina, who has heard her for so > long said "this is new!") it was puzzling. ... S: Sometimes a topic may seem new to us, but usually it's because we haven't picked up and questioned about it in detail before. I've heard As referrring to the nimitta of dhammas appearing on very old tapes. If someone doesn't appreciate what namas and rupas are, what seeing and visible object are, there's no point in talking about nimittas of dhammas. So it's also a question of what is appropriate. As Ven P has been saying, too much detail is very off-putting for people new to Abhidhamma. So to summarise on your question about lust and visible object vs 'flash of thing', the lobha arises on account of the thoughts of thigh arising as a result of the visible objects seen, the sanna at work and the accumulated kilesa (defilements). I think Howard explained this quite well in his summary (in #81013). Visible object is not a recent teaching! It is what we read about throughout the SN and other texts you've studied (as ruupa), as Nina stressed. It just refers to what appears to seeing, what is seen right now - just exactly as it is. There is nothing strange about why some visible objects lead to one way of thinking and others to another way of thinking - all anatta and possible to explain and appreciate in terms of different conditions, especially natural decisive support condition. Briefly on other points you've raised briefly: Sakkaya-ditthi is the pre-cursor for all other kinds of gross wrong view. It is very gross! Only through understanding and eradicating sakkaya-ditthi will these other wrong views be eradicated. We're so very caught up in this body as being mine and so on. All formal meditation is a clinging to a rite and ritual (silabbataparamasa), ONLY when and if there is an idea that the path is a matter of following some kind of method or technique. It comes down to the cittas at any time. You mentioned that when you start meditating that the 'Dhamma feels more centred in the body, and less in the head' and that this will be more helpful in dealing with pain and death. That may be so, just as other kinds of martial arts, yoga or brathing work can be helpful. However it is silabbataparamasa if one thinks it has anything to do with understanding dhammas or is the path to follow such a course, don't you think? Obviously when you fall asleep, there's no wrong view/practice involved! You've also referred to how AS encourages us to be aware of fleeting realities and that somehow we 'dodge around in order to avoid admitting she's wrong.' I have no idea what this means, but, speaking for myself, I've never taken her reminders about the importance of awarness or understanding as being an order or recommendation for a Self to do anything. No, she stresses the importance of understanding seeing and visible object appearing now. Frankly, if there's no awareness or understanding of what these dhammas are, I really wonder why anyone bothers to listen to much else of what she says. It seems so essential. It's certainly not a matter of 'dissecting', 'analysing', 'trying to be aware of them' or any of the other things mentioned by you and others. If any such cittas with wrong view arise, simply, they are the realities to be known at such moments. [Btw, laughed at the 'Chip to Jack Bauer' description. I know just what you mean about the movie star thing. The Thais used to liken Jon to Charlton Heston til he started wearing glasses and his hair started thinning and so on.....:). Enough of a ramble and I know you'd rather I delayed posting, but that never works for me....I lose everything that way. No need to reply! Metta, Sarah ======== #81085 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jan 13, 2008 2:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thank you all for your help. I really want to understand but seem unable sarahprocter... Dear Ven Pannabahulo, Robert A & Phil, --- pannabahulo wrote: > When some of you talk about seeing visible object as just that do you > mean that you analyse what you see? Do you break eveything down in > this way in order to understand? Do you label? ... S: This is very similar to Phil's comment in #81000: "How on earth does one *not* direct the show when one is told "Is there seeing now? Study it, or panna cannot develop (grow?)?" Also Robert A's comment in #81019: "When Acharn Sujin says "Is there seeing now?", she is asking us to look, she is giving us a reminder to do something we may have forgotten to do." I mention this to show you're in very good company here! You think nothing is making sense, but the fact that there is such deep consideration about this point about common dhammas appearing now, indicates considerable wise attention. Most people never reflect on what realities are, what can be known or what the Path is. Simply, there is no 'breaking down' or 'labelling' involved. The problem is simply the very deep-rooted idea of 'I' and the deep-rooted notion that 'I' has to do something at all. This is the fantasy, the illusion, the sakkaya-ditthi. 'Study' doesn't mean 'analyse'. It means understand and consider what appears at this moment. By considering carefully what dhammas are appearing now, by beginning to be aware of them (without 'I' doing anything), gradually all doubts about the practice, all ideas of having to 'do' something, fall away. So if there are doubts, if there is confusion, if there is worry - these too are dhammas which arise by conditions and can be known. It really is a path of detachment rather than attachment. I liked this quote of AS's which Nina gave recently on the 'upright person': "An upright person knows that dhamma is dhamma, non-self. One becomes an upright person by listening, considering and awareness. When satipa.t.thaana arises, and a person is aware of the characteristic that appears, studies it and understands it, he follows the right Path. He is not following another practice, different from the right Path. Gradually he studies realities and understands them, and he is not neglectful, so that insight knowledge can arise. He knows that he cannot select any object of satipa.t.thaana." Metta, Sarah ========= #81086 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Jan 13, 2008 2:22 am Subject: Re: Anatta special vs. anicca and dukkha (was, Report ...) jonoabb Hi again Dieter --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Dieter Möller wrote: > > Hi Jon , > > Jon: (D: The fetter of conceit is only abolished at Arahant level.) > Yes, but conceit and anatta are two different things entirely. > > D: I don' t understand what you mean .. conceit and anatta are excluding eachother as atta and anatta ..are you disagreeing that conceit is an underlying part of the self..? Thinking some more about your comments here, I thought it might be useful to mention a couple of things. First, when talking about anatta it is useful to clarify whether we are talking about anatta the characteristic, or whether we are talking about the wrong view of self. The former is a characteristic of all dhammas (including mental factors), while the latter is a mental factor. Secondly, since there is no self, it cannot really be said that conceit is an underlying part of the self. However, if you are referring to conceit as a part of the *idea of self*, then bear in mind that the idea of self (also known as wrong view of self) is eradicated at the stage of stream entry, whereas the mental factor of conceit is not eradicated until the stage of arahant. So on that basis it would not be correct to regard conceit as being dependent on, or being a form of, an idea of self. Hoping this helps clarify some of the differences between us. Jon #81087 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 13, 2008 2:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: to James. Thank you all for your kindness. I really do want to understand but seem unable nilovg Hi James, Op 13-jan-2008, om 10:54 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > James: This is why I call her a charlatan. From Dictionary.com: > char·la·tan (shärl-tn) n. A person fraudulently claiming knowledge > and skills not possessed. -------- N: How would you know? I agree with DC that one cannot know someone else's mind. Therefore, why not just talk about dhammas, not about persons? Another point, also someone who disagrees is my friend. Why only have friendshipo for someone who agrees ? Nina. #81088 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Sun Jan 13, 2008 2:36 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The not-self strategy sarahprocter... Hi Charles D, So sorry - I didn't respond to a couple of questions in your kind post to me ages ago (#79371). --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Charles DaCosta" wrote: > I hope You and Jonathan Are Doing well, and Life (existence) is good for You > two. ... S: Yes, we're both very well. I hope you and your wife are too, in spite of the employment hassles. I expect Denmark's very beautiful at this time of year.....Kung Fu in the snow? .... > 1) I am beginning to understand why you like using the pali, OK -- I > will have to start remembering it! ... S: I'm not a good role-model at all! ... > > 2) For you my argument is not limited to the idea of Self, it covers > (as you) the usage of terms: Conventional as apposed to Absolute (I think I > remember this being bases on Your view). Why is it that Relative Truth must > be considered not true? And only Absolute Truth true? .... S: Let's use examples. What is seen now, whatever word we use, is an absolute reality. Definitely there is a visible object seen. Now, if we start comparing what is seen with what is heard, it is a concept. So, only cittas, cetasikas, rupas and nibbana are absolute realities. ... > Personally, I this 99% of the Buddha's teaching is about Relative Truth. > After all if there is no-You and no-Me, however we choose to describe these > entities, something must be carrying out this dialog. ... S: Just cittas, cetasikas and rupas. However we describe the 'entities' as you refer to 'You' and 'Me', it is just a concept, not a reality which is experienced. ... > After all, isn't the voice I was talking about uniquely yours, uniquely > generated from the components of your-Being as apposed to someone- else's > being? ... S: It's a good point. For convenience, we can refer to 'Sarah's voice' and we know it's very different from 'Charles's voice'. Actually, what is the voice? Where is the 'Sarah'? There are again just different cittas, cetasikas and rupas in a particular combination that can be identified as such. .... > I would agree that it is a good idea to know that you do not have complete > control over that voice (you can train for perfect pitch but it may never > come), ... S: No 'you' who has any control. However, by conditions, there can be voice-training and so on. ... >nor is your voice an uncompounded entity (it is a mixture of sounds), > an eternal entity (it arises, fades, and dies due to causes), and it can be > a source of suffering (e.g., when it is used in anger or when the attachment > to it turns into obsession). ... S: The components of the 'voice', the cittas and sounds involved are just different dhammas. They are all inherently unsatisfactory because as you say, they arise and fall away due to causes. Even what we take for being 'sweet sounds' are mere dhammas which are anicca, dukkha and anatta. .... > I try to enjoy the wisdom of knowing that You and I exist and that existence > is not eternal (i.e., it is conditioned). After all, not-Self is a great > strategy in this Relative world, would You say so? .... S: No, I wouldn't agree with this. 1. You and I do not exist. 2. Anatta is a characteristic of all dhammas, not a strategy (as discussed at length here recently!!) 3. I've no idea what a 'Relative world' is!! (see above). Again, my apologies for your kind message. Metta and very best wishes for 2008 to you and your family. Sarah ========= #81089 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Sun Jan 13, 2008 2:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Asoka, Ch 6, no 6. sarahprocter... Hi Dieter, I also never replied to your kind and detailed reply to me (#79736) in which you quoted the Panna Sutta. I wished to thank you very much for your time and trouble. As others discussed the sutta in some detail and I remember Nina gave extra comments from the commentary, I didn't respond further. At the end, you wrote: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Dieter Möller wrote: > Sarah: The question is rather, what is bhavana as taught by the Buddha? I think we can find a big difference between this and 'mainstream Buddhism'. > > D: I think there is no question when we read the suttas ..the difference may occur when we (try to) translate it into practise. > Mainstream Buddhism to mean what is assumed to be the view/practise of the majority .. (in respect to the teacher , the Buddha Dhamma) ... S: Yes, this is a good definition, but of course being 'Mainstream Buddhism', i.e. a 'majority' understanding of the teachings today, does not make it right, wouldn't you agree? ... > > Sarah:If you'd like to discuss more about the meaning of bhavana (mental development or meditation), according to the Buddha's teachings, we can. > > D: Sarah, I would like to discuss more if you to take the time to read suggested suttas as I try to understand the Abhidhammic point of you .. otherwise I don't see how we manage to 'dance' harmoniously ;-) ... S: I'm always very happy to discuss any sutta in detail. It would be easier for me to do so if you (or others) make it very clear what the purpose in the selection and quote is, i.e what the point being made is. Otherwise we both just agree that it's a good sutta, draw our own conclusions and that's the end of the discussion! Thank you again, Dieter. Wishing you very well this year too and looking forward to reading your comments in any of the threads. Metta, Sarah p.s Thank you for assisting with the Nyantiloka question. I didn't know of any controversy or anything B.Bodhi wrote. Do you have a link to his comments? ====== #81090 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jan 13, 2008 3:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] thoughts on practice sarahprocter... Hi Larry, (*Ven D.) --- Larry wrote: > Sarah: "I've let the other thread with the article slide because I think > Nina and Howard picked > up the main points." > > Larry: What??? We've barely scratched the surface. But if you don't have > time, sobeit. ... S: Ooops! Perhaps could you could re-post a para, or add the next one or give me a link if you'd like another comment. What I thought was that the author was talking about stages of insight but not understanding what namas and rupas are. I thought Howard and Nina had pointed this out well. If there's no understanding of seeing and visible object, of hearing and sound, of their clear distinctions, what's the purpose in talking about stages of insight? Actually, I found your own comments more interesting and useful to discuss from 'thoughts on practice'. Do you have anything further to add to my last comments to you on this? Oh, I just remembered that Ven Nanarama's article came up because we were discussing Htoo's points. Anyway, respond however you like with a few lines from the article, from Htoo's message or anything else and I'll try to keep the ball rolling.... If you specifically ask me a question or for a comment on a point, it's easier. Metta, Sarah *p.s Good questions for Ven D. Like you and others, I appreciated his response to Alex and also the help friends had given him with the computer. ======== #81091 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Sun Jan 13, 2008 3:11 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (73) nichiconn Dear Friends, Part 11 16. Mahaanipaato 1. Sumedhaatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa 485. "Rajje aa.naa dhanamissariya.m, bhogaa sukhaa daharikaasi; bhu~njaahi kaamabhoge, kaamasukhaa dullabhaa loke. 486. "Nissa.t.tha.m te rajja.m, bhoge bhu~njassu dehi daanaani; maa dummanaa ahosi, maataapitaro te dukkhitaa. 487. "Ta.m ta.m bha.nati sumedhaa, kaamehi anatthikaa vigatamohaa; maa kaame abhinandi, kaamesvaadiinava.m passa. 488. "Caatuddiipo raajaa, mandhaataa aasi kaamabhoginamaggo; atitto kaala"nkato, na cassa paripuuritaa icchaa. 489. "Satta ratanaani vasseyya, vu.t.thimaa dasadisaa samantena; na catthi titti kaamaana.m, atittaava maranti naraa. 483. "In kingship there are [giving of] orders, wealth, authority, happy enjoyments. You are young. Enjoy the enjoyments of sensual pleasures. Happiness from sensual pleasures is hard to obtain in the world. 484. "[My] kingdome has been bestowed upon you. Enjoy enjoyments. Give gifts. Do not be depressed. Your mother and father are pained." 485. Then Sumedhaa, unconcerned with sensual pleasures and free from delusion, said this: "Do not rejoice in sensual pleasures. See the peril in sensual pleasures. 486. "Mandhaataa, the king of the four continents, was foremost of those who enjoy sensual pleasures. He died unsatisfied, nor were his wishes fulfilled. 487. "If the rainy one were to rain the seven jewels all around in the ten directions, there would still be no satisfaction with sensual pleasures. Men die unsatisfied indeed. RD: 'Reign in my kingdom and enjoy my wealth And power. Rich, happy and so young thou art, Enjoy the sweets that life and love can yield, Though they be hard to win and won by few. (483) To thee my kingdom I surrender! Now Dispose as thou dost wish, give gifts galore. Be not downcast. Thy parents are distressed.' (484) To him thus Sumedhaa, for whom desires Of sensuous love were worthless, nor availed To lead astray, made answer: 'O set not The heart's affections on this sensual love. See all the peril, the satiety of sense. (485) Mandhaataa, King o' th' world's four continents, *426 Had greater wealth to gratify his sense Than any other man, yet passed away Unsatisfied, his wishes unfulfilled. (486) Nay, an the rain-god rained all seven kinds Of gems till earth and heaven were full, still would The senses crave, and men insatiate die. (487) *426 A mythical ancestor of Sumedhaa's and the Buddha's people, the Saakiyas. Mentioned in Ang. Nik., ii. 7; Jaataka, ii. 310, iii. 454 ff.; Diipavansa, iii. 5; Mahaavansa, 8, 231; Milindapa~nha, 115, 291, etc. == to be continued, connie #81092 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Sun Jan 13, 2008 3:23 am Subject: [dsg] Re: My Understanding of Ajahn Sujin's Interpretation of the Dhamma/... sarahprocter... Hi Howard, Belatedly back to your message #79856 on 'Doing': --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: ... > Howard: > I think of a person with cancer who is told by the doctor "No need to > 'do' anything. When there is robust health, there's nothing to be done at all," > and then wisely runs post haste to find a different doctor. ... S: Nothing to be done at all with an idea of Self. Any doing is performed by wholesome cittas arising with panna and the rest, naturally, easily, when such cittas arise. I agree with you, that hearing this, most people will look for another doctor, another medicine. We always want to 'do' something. ... > Our cancer is ignorance and craving, and it is useless to rely on "When > there is understanding and awareness with calm, there's nothing to be done at > all" in lieu of treatment. ... S: On the contrary, rather than being 'in lieu of treatment', such 'understanding and awareness with calm' is the treatment, is the bhaavanaa. ... >That is like saying that when we're not sick, > we'll be well. The Buddha was called "The Great Physician," and not for nothing. ... S: Yes, the Great Physician becuase it pointed out the Truths - the sickness, the cause and the treatment. He also said this treatment was extremely subtle and was inclined at first not to offer it, knowing that it would not satisfy the craving most people have for Self to act and DO something. ... > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Life carrying on as usual is life enmeshed in ignorance and suffering. > What is needed is not life going on as usual, but against the stream. > --------------------------------------------------------- ... S: Life carrying on as usual with the development of awareness, right understanding and the other Path factors which co-arise. .. Howard: > Do you recall the Buddha's poisoned-arrow metaphor, Sarah, of MN 105. > This isn't the better known metaphor which pertains to wanting to know answers > to the unanswered questions, but to the need to maintain restraint of the > senses. In this sutta the Buddha speaks of a man pierced by an arrow of craving > - an arrow smeared with the "poison of ignorance [that] spreads its toxin > through desire, passion, & ill will." > The Buddha goes on to say the following: <..> > The Buddha calls for continued care and vigilance, even (interestingly) when > no residue of poison remains! He does not recommend letting matters simply > take their course. The instruction is "Eat suitable food. Don't eat unsuitable > food, or else the wound will fester. Wash the wound frequently, smear it > with an ointment frequently, so that blood & pus don't fill the opening of the > wound. Don't walk around in the wind & sun, or else dust & dirt may > contaminate the opening of the wound. Keep looking after the wound, my good man, and > work for its healing." And later he makes clear what that "care & vigilance" > metaphor pertains to. One who engages in such care & vigilance to fully > overcome the piercing is one who is a person "rightly intent on Unbinding". Such a > one "... wouldn't pursue unsuitable forms & sights with the eye. He wouldn't > pursue unsuitable sounds with the ear... unsuitable aromas with the nose... > unsuitable flavors with the tongue... unsuitable tactile sensations with the > body. He wouldn't pursue unsuitable ideas with the intellect. When he doesn't > pursue unsuitable forms & sights with the eye... doesn't pursue unsuitable > ideas with the intellect, lust doesn't invade the mind. With his mind not > invaded by lust, he doesn't incur death or death-like suffering." > -------------------------------------------------------------------- .... S: Let's take one line: "Such a > one "... wouldn't pursue unsuitable forms & sights with the eye." Can we have any control now over what sights are seen? Can we have any control over whether there is attachment to what is seen at this very moment? However, having heard and considered that mere sights/visible objects are seen and that it is the attachment and proliferation on account of such that all sorts of 'unsuitable ideas' follows, very gradually awareness of the various dhammas involved does begin to develop. This isn't by a special trying or wishing not to have such ideas, but by appreciating the significance, by understanding the nature of seeing and visible object and the other dhammas for what they are. We agree on much about the nature of such dhammas, but always have a difference in understanding about the treatment. From my point of view, Howard, you'd like a Self to perform the treatment, whereas I'm very confident that the treatment is the wise attention, the consideration and understanding which arise naturally when all the right conditions are in place. No need to think or worry about trying to have more. Thank you for the excellent sutta and your well-considered comments. Metta, Sarah ======= #81093 From: "pannabahulo" Date: Sun Jan 13, 2008 4:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Reply to Nina pannabahulo Dear Nina, Thank you very much for your kind reply and the appreciation you express about our little abhidhamma group here. No, I don't have the 1997 version of your book. The copies we use here are the 1990 ones.If at all possible, it would be fantastic to receive the updaated version. (Unfotunately, I connect to the Internet by air-card. This is very slow and makes downloads extremely difficult if not impossible. My address is: Phra Alan James Cooper (Pannabahulo Bhikkhu) Wat Phra Koed 208, T. Ban Luang M.13 A. Chom Tong Chiang Mai 50160 Thailand Nina, one thing that Ajan Sujin said to David is that "Citta is darker than dark" - Have you any idea what she meant by that? It's got us all wondering. With my deepest thanks, metta and every best wish, Pannabahulo #81094 From: "Phil" Date: Sun Jan 13, 2008 4:27 am Subject: Vijnanavada [Re: [dsg] Re: Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (3)] philofillet Hi Sarah and Jon Thanks for your posts, and good to be in touch with you. Naomi and I are off to Niigata for a few days, so will be back on all this later. Just to touch on one point. > You've also referred to how AS encourages us to be aware of fleeting > realities and that somehow we 'dodge around in order to avoid admitting > she's wrong.' I have no idea what this means, but, speaking for myself, > I've never taken her reminders about the importance of awarness or > understanding as being an order or recommendation for a Self to do > anything. No, she stresses the importance of understanding seeing and > visible object appearing now. Sorry, my vague comment on "dodging to admit she was wrong" wasn't meant to be related to the trying to catch fleeting realities thing. The latter is based on my view (opinion, perhaps mistaken) that we all seek results from Dhamma, and if one's approach to Dhamma involves understanding the present moment there will inevitably be too much trying to grab it. I just can't beleieve that we don't all try to get something out of Dhamma, in *this* lifetime. Just can't believe it. But that's OK, that's my issue and I'll try not to keep bringing it up. The former point, never admitting she's wrong is simply based on the fact that I can never recall anyone having said "AS is wrong on this point." Not once. I remember one talk in which you kind of questioned her quite hard about which is more subtle, nama and rupa, and there was a sense you disagreed with her. But other than that, it seems that her view is sacrosanct, which I think is just a little odd. To be honest, I wonder if there is not clinging to the notion of her being an Ariyan, and an Ariyan cannot be wrong on Dhamma points so she is not wrong, something like that. Oh, once I heard her say she had been wrong on some very minor technical point. On the other hand, when you hear BB talk he often refers to errors he has made, often qualifies things by saying it is just his interpretation, just his reading. I find him much more modest when he talks. Sorry, but that's just the feeling I get. As I was saying to James, I am really appreciating how helpful she is when teaching Abhidhamma as theory (i.e when it without references to being aware of the present moment, i.e when it is book learning, which is important, I think) and - as I forgot to say to James - if it weren't for her this great group wouldn't be here. I looked around but there is nothing like DSG for serious Theravadin discussion. Who knows, maybe I will join in on it someday instead of shooting off my mouth all the time. Ok, catch you guys in a few days. Metta, Phil #81095 From: "Phil" Date: Sun Jan 13, 2008 4:58 am Subject: Re: Form and visible object (Rob M) philofillet Hi again Please allow me to move this to this thread. When I get back I want to follow up on this point thoroughly as an exercise in proper discussion. Metta, Phil >P: When you have a moment (no hurry whatsoever) could you post a few > thoughts on this point in the "form and visible object" thread I > started yesterday. I don't recall having hear that one of the > external ayatanas (visible object) is different from the others in > any way, but it seems to make sense, from common sense only. .... S: Not only is visible object completely different from sound or taste, for example (in spite of having all being rupas, sense objects), but each visible object seen is again quite different from any other visible object seen (in spite of having common characteristics and all being visible objects). Yes, it is common sense. When we look one way, the visible object seen is different from when we look another way. When we look at the computer screen one moment, the visible object is different from when we look a moment later. If this weren't so, there'd never be the different kinds of identification, proliferation and ideas of 'thigh' and so on, on account of those visible objects, the perceptions and the accumulated ways of thinking. The same, of course, applies to sounds and all other dhammas. ..... > And is it the characteristic that is known or the nimitta of the > characteristic that has already fallen away? .... S: The nimitta really refers to degrees of illusion. When we attend to the signs (nimitta) and details of the 'thigh', taking it for reality, there is a strong illusion of 'something' existing. When there's awareness now of a reality, of visible object say, there is a growing understanding or clarity of what visible object is. However, unless it is the insight which penetrates the arising and falling away of that visible object at that instant, it is in fact a 'shadow' or 'image' of visible object appearing. It is still the characteristic of the reality which appears. The talk about nimitta is not meant to distract from the direct understanding of realities. .... >I found that when A. > Sujin suddenly announced the latter (Nina, who has heard her for so > long said "this is new!") it was puzzling. ... S: Sometimes a topic may seem new to us, but usually it's because we haven't picked up and questioned about it in detail before. I've heard As referrring to the nimitta of dhammas appearing on very old tapes. If someone doesn't appreciate what namas and rupas are, what seeing and visible object are, there's no point in talking about nimittas of dhammas. So it's also a question of what is appropriate. As Ven P has been saying, too much detail is very off-putting for people new to Abhidhamma. So to summarise on your question about lust and visible object vs 'flash of thing', the lobha arises on account of the thoughts of thigh arising as a result of the visible objects seen, the sanna at work and the accumulated kilesa (defilements). I think Howard explained this quite well in his summary (in #81013). Visible object is not a recent teaching! It is what we read about throughout the SN and other texts you've studied (as ruupa), as Nina stressed. It just refers to what appears to seeing, what is seen right now - just exactly as it is. There is nothing strange about why some visible objects lead to one way of thinking and others to another way of thinking - all anatta and possible to explain and appreciate in terms of different conditions, especially natural decisive support condition. #81096 From: "Sukinder" Date: Sun Jan 13, 2008 5:55 am Subject: Re: Thank you all for your help. I really want to understand but seem unable sukinderpal Dear Ven Pannabahulo and Phil, ================== Ven P: > This morning I awoke with a kind of panic attack.I realise I must be > missing the point and don't have any idea of how to apply the > teachings.My lifespan is fast running out and the sense of urgency I > feel is tremendous. Sukin: It seems that you see some sense in what is being proposed, but you can't pinpoint and grasp the main idea. You see the value, but perhaps you are also struggling with the prospect of having to question and reject your current understanding about the Dhamma and idea about `practice'. This is commendable. I've always believed questioning one's beliefs ;-), including in case of those who have not heard the Dhamma, as being sign of intelligence. In your case, it also shows your willingness to listen / be receptive, and this makes you "one easy to instruct", a most important quality which I'm most happy to see. ================== Phil: I join everyone in wishing you well. I feel that a very warm, compassionate energy emenates from your posts, so I think you *are* getting the point. As you know, the Buddha defined the wise man thus: "His action marks the fool, his action marks the wise person, O monks. Wisdom shines forth in behaviour. By three things the fool can be known: by bad conduct of body, speech and mind. By three things the wise person can be known: by good conduct of body, speech and mind." (AN III,2) Sukin: Phil expresses his admiration too, and for this Anumodana to him. However judging from his comments below, his and my reasons are not only different, but he seems to discourage you from something which according to me is only his own projection based on wrong understanding of what A. Sujin says. =================== Phil: A. Sujin of course realizes this as well, but she very often teaches about very deep levels of panna and I don't think a sense of urgency helps us approach them, not in this one lifetime. But a sense of urgency can keep us on track with respect to the kind of wisdom the Buddha teaches about above! Sukin: For some reason Phil does not believe in the Pariyatti > Patipatti > Pativedha relationship / progression. Instead of this he has opted for the "beginner" in Dhamma as being `someone' who needs to practice dana, sila and other kusala and if possible, to engage in some form of `formal meditation'. He believes that as one continues with this, as time goes by, one day wisdom will then arise to know / understand Anatta. He believes that prior to this, a putthujana is only fooling himself if he thinks he understands it to any degree. Of course Phil is right to some extent, after all Anatta is only truly known when it is directly known at the highest level of Vipassana. But there *is* a beginning level, and this level is that of `hearing / considering', certainly not as Phil has projected, namely a storyline involving what a person might go through in time. According to his theory, the Buddha's teaching on Anatta which as you know, is a big part of his Lion's Roar, might just as well not been heard by some of us. But Pariyatti is where we begin and though this does not mean an attempt to gain more and more knowledge, neither does it mean however, that we can make a decision as to what we want to hear and follow. After all, what ever we do in this regard will be dictated by the wrong understanding inevitably arisen. If any patience is required, this should be to carefully consider each and every concept we come across, including Dana, Sila and what is Bhavana, and not to be jumping on to trying to actualize them. Phil seems to think that A. Sujin expects of her audience to `try' experience the nature of citta, cetasikas and rupa. But this is his misunderstanding. A. Sujin encourages the development of understanding without any expectation of the level of this which may be conditioned to arise or not arise. With this she is encouraging patience with regard to everything said by the Buddha. Most people react with the intention of `gaining', even with ideas Dhamma. And it is exactly this teaching on anatta and conditionality which can serve to steer us away from taking the wrong path. Even if this is only intellectual understanding, one at least knows it and accepts it. Apparently however, there are those who on one side perceive this to be a sign of laziness and / or being stuck at the intellectual level and on the other side like Phil, who thinks that this is about `greed for high level of wisdom'. One hears about Patipatti and knows this to be more important, but because there is correct Pariyatti, one knows not to make the mistake of trying to force things / take on wrong practices, which necessarily comes as a result of `wrong view' fueled by tanha. A. Sujin's pointing to the importance of knowing present moment realities is meant as reminder of what is most relevant and she is without any expectations. Most of us are usually lost one way or another, in ideas about past and future and trying to find answers via concepts. Her reminder, depending on the person, can prompt any level of understanding to arise, or perhaps not. However she will patiently carry on this way knowing that the Sankhara dhammas perform their task and only conditions will dictate the outcome. One important thing, the understanding that needs to be developed even at Pariyatti, the object is always the present moment. It is the accumulation of this which leads one to conclude that there are in fact only the dhammas of the present moment to be known. It is upon this that real Saddha is developed which then helps to swerve one away from thinking in terms of a better time and place. Phil fails to appreciate this and therefore has opted for his particular version of Dhamma practice. From where I stand however, he comes in from what any uninstructed worldling knows and is familiar with, namely that there are "selves" who can and must take action in order to gain something. In other words, Phil has opted for one of the many possible wrong paths that are open to putthujanas. But of course thinking that he is more or less in the middle, he perceives A. Sujin's interpretation as being to the left or right. Phil mentions `sense of urgency'. But I believe this can only truly come with understanding, in other words samvegha is conditioned by the present moment and also bends the mind to knowing the present moment. And this is related to Saddha that I mentioned above. If on the other hand in the name of Dhamma, we talk about having to do this or that first, I wonder how much samvegha or saddha these reflect?! ==================== Phil: I have a feelng (though I can't know for sure, of course) that you are doing well in this respect! Of course those deep levels of wisdom taught in Abhidhamma are ultimately the most liberating, but there is no hurrying them. Sukin: No hurrying them means to not jump to `practicing' anything at first suggestion. Appreciating that the Dhamma is deep and hard to see, let us continue listening and considering with the understanding that whatever is conditioned to arise now, is it, conditioned! And let us be wary about tanha which may want to have more and tries to convince us through reasoning / rationalizing about `doings' in order to have it! Being less ambitious is still ambition; better know this than be carried away by any justification re: lowering aims. The projected scenarios are willfully grasped at, at the expense of any interest in knowing what it is that has motivated this in the present moment. =================== Phil: A. Sujin herself said once "the shortcut is lobha" and I hope she and her students and all of us can remember that. Sukin: Yes, as above, what has been conditioned to arise in the moment, this is it. If ignorance has arisen and one knows this only in retrospect, this is the truth. But if miccha ditthi has arisen and one thinks to "do" something, knowing this even by inference, is better than ending up following the wrong path. There is nothing to be discouraged in knowing how little we know. However the chances of going the wrong way is infinitely more than the right one, and each of these *feels absolutely right* for those who know no better. All the more reason to be patient with regard to Dhamma study. Besides Ditthujukamma is one of the ten meritorious deeds and a necessary part of the Path. Ven. Pannabahulo, I hope I have not sounded too preachy, as I mentioned off list, this is just how I think / proliferate and write. Thanks for your patience in reading all this. With respect, Sukin PS: Phil, I hope you didn't mind my referring to you as I did above. BTW, you often cite the belief in kamma / vipakka as being enough for beginners. Has it ever occurred to you that one might need to develop understanding of what exactly kamma is and what is vipakka? Remember kamma is intention and vipakka refers to among other dhammas, the 10 sense cognitions. Can one therefore really understand kamma and vipakka without developing satipatthana? And if a beginner fails to make the above connection, does he not risk the chance of distorting the Buddha's teachings, perhaps making it similar to the Hindu version? #81097 From: "Alex" Date: Sun Jan 13, 2008 6:40 am Subject: Re: Is Nibbana a Dhamma? Is Nibbana really Anatta? truth_aerator Dear Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Dear Alex, > > A: "You know the phrase that Sabbe Dhamma Anatta meaning that "all > Dhamma (things/phenomenon including Nibbana) are not self ". Well, > > > Scott: Now, Alex, what was the point you wish to make? > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > Why in one instance "Sabbe Dhamma" means one thing, and in another case it means another? Is it possible that Nibbana is NOT a Dhamma? Lots of Metta, Alex #81098 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 13, 2008 6:44 am Subject: Lessons in Detachment, Ch 3, no 5. nilovg Dear friends, Nåma and rúpa are impersonal elements. We should remember the words of the Burmese Abhidhamma teacher Thein Nyun in his preface to the third Book of the Abhidhamma, the Discourse on Elements (Dhåtu-Kathå, P.T.S.): "Because the functions of the elements give rise to the concepts of continuity, collection and form, the ideas arise: 1)the initial effort that has to be exerted when a deed is about to be performed and 2) the care that has to be taken while the deed is being performed to its completion and this leads to the subsequent ideas 3)"I can perform" and 4) "I can feel". Thus these four imaginary characteristic functions of being have brought about a deep-rooted belief in their existence. But the elements have not the time or span of duration to carry out such functions." When I was standing next to Acharn Sujin in Savatthí near the place of the Buddha’s dwelling, I said that I kept on thinking with attachment to whatever I experience. She answered that it is helpful to remember that there are conditions for all dhammas that occur, and that thinking is only a conditioned dhamma. All situations in our life can be a test for our understanding, no matter we have pleasant or sorrowful experiences. Satipatthåna can be developed naturally in daily life so that we come to understand our accumulated wholesome and unwholesome inclinations. Eventually these can be known as non-self. Through satipatthåna we learn that whatever is experienced are only nåmas and rúpas arising because of conditions. The four applications of mindfulness are not theory, but pertain to everyday life and basic human behaviour. The understanding of our life as nåma and rúpa will lead to more patience when we face difficult situations and to more tolerance in our dealings with others. If we do not develop understanding we shall be lost in pleasure, we shall stay in the ocean of ignorance and clinging. Dhamma should be our island in this ocean. ****** Nina. #81099 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jan 13, 2008 1:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: My Understanding of Ajahn Sujin's Interpretation of the Dhamma/... upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 1/13/2008 6:23:53 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Hi Howard, Belatedly back to your message #79856 on 'Doing': ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Wow, you can sure dredge up old posts! I'm not sure I remember the guy who wrote that msg! ;-)) ----------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: ... > Howard: > I think of a person with cancer who is told by the doctor "No need to > 'do' anything. When there is robust health, there's nothing to be done at all," > and then wisely runs post haste to find a different doctor. ... S: Nothing to be done at all with an idea of Self. Any doing is performed by wholesome cittas arising with panna and the rest, naturally, easily, when such cittas arise. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yeah, Sarah, I know there's no self - we all do. But however we act, we act. Most often there *is* sense of self. C'est la vie. If absence of sense of self is required for useful action, then, I insist, Sarah, STOP YOUR DHAMMA STUDYING IMMEDIATELY!! ;-)) --------------------------------------------------- I agree with you, that hearing this, most people will look for another doctor, another medicine. We always want to 'do' something. ... > Our cancer is ignorance and craving, and it is useless to rely on "When > there is understanding and awareness with calm, there's nothing to be done at > all" in lieu of treatment. ... S: On the contrary, rather than being 'in lieu of treatment', such 'understanding and awareness with calm' is the treatment, is the bhaavanaa. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: What is the means to attain understanding and awareness with calm? Dumb luck? Is that what the Buddha taught? I know - you want to say that the basis is study and consideration. Do you WANT to study & consider? Is it your INTENTION to do so? Is there no sense of self involved - of someone who is studying and considering? Is studying Dhamma a cetasika, or a conventional activity? I think you know my answers! You seem to believe that Khun sujin and her students act without sense of self. I think that is nonsense. Have you considered that believing that studying leads to development of enlightenment factors is attachment to rite and ritual? That's how you evaluate intentionally meditating. I say, then that intentionally studying is fair game for the same evaluation. -------------------------------------------------- ... >That is like saying that when we're not sick, > we'll be well. The Buddha was called "The Great Physician," and not for nothing. ... S: Yes, the Great Physician becuase it pointed out the Truths - the sickness, the cause and the treatment. He also said this treatment was extremely subtle and was inclined at first not to offer it, knowing that it would not satisfy the craving most people have for Self to act and DO something. --------------------------------------------------- Howard: But the Buddha DID teach the treatment. --------------------------------------------------- ... > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Life carrying on as usual is life enmeshed in ignorance and suffering. > What is needed is not life going on as usual, but against the stream. > --------------------------------------------------------- ... S: Life carrying on as usual with the development of awareness, right understanding and the other Path factors which co-arise. ------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Life carried on as usual will NOT lead to development of awareness, right understanding and the other path factors. Unless we act purposely in a different manner - radically different, we are merely led by gross desire, aversion, and attachment, by the defilements. We run from pain and run after pleasure. THAT is the human condition, and purposeful action is required to affect a change. ----------------------------------------------------------- .. Howard: > Do you recall the Buddha's poisoned-arrow metaphor, Sarah, of MN 105. > This isn't the better known metaphor which pertains to wanting to know answers > to the unanswered questions, but to the need to maintain restraint of the > senses. In this sutta the Buddha speaks of a man pierced by an arrow of craving > - an arrow smeared with the "poison of ignorance [that] spreads its toxin > through desire, passion, & ill will." > The Buddha goes on to say the following: <..> > The Buddha calls for continued care and vigilance, even (interestingly) when > no residue of poison remains! He does not recommend letting matters simply > take their course. The instruction is "Eat suitable food. Don't eat unsuitable > food, or else the wound will fester. Wash the wound frequently, smear it > with an ointment frequently, so that blood & pus don't fill the opening of the > wound. Don't walk around in the wind & sun, or else dust & dirt may > contaminate the opening of the wound. Keep looking after the wound, my good man, and > work for its healing." And later he makes clear what that "care & vigilance" > metaphor pertains to. One who engages in such care & vigilance to fully > overcome the piercing is one who is a person "rightly intent on Unbinding". Such a > one "... wouldn't pursue unsuitable forms & sights with the eye. He wouldn't > pursue unsuitable sounds with the ear... unsuitable aromas with the nose... > unsuitable flavors with the tongue... unsuitable tactile sensations with the > body. He wouldn't pursue unsuitable ideas with the intellect. When he doesn't > pursue unsuitable forms & sights with the eye... doesn't pursue unsuitable > ideas with the intellect, lust doesn't invade the mind. With his mind not > invaded by lust, he doesn't incur death or death-like suffering." > -------------------------------------------------------------------- .... S: Let's take one line: "Such a > one "... wouldn't pursue unsuitable forms & sights with the eye." Can we have any control now over what sights are seen? ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Sarah, you can and do choose to do lots of things. As for seeing or not seeing particular sights, of course we can exercise control. To see the sight we call "the back yard", we walk around back. To see the sight we call "the computer screen", we appropriately turn our head. To stop seeing that is currently seen can't be changed to something else, well, no kidding! It is already there! -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Can we have any control over whether there is attachment to what is seen at this very moment? ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: No, it's too late! The sight is already here, and the conditions for the attachment to it have already been set. It is the actions we take NOW that condition attachment or the lack of it in the future! NOW is the time to take purposeful action to train the mind and cultivate useful qualities. And if we do not do that due to misunderstanding of what is and is not possible, then we have fallen prey to hopelessness, and, indeed, awakening is a pipe dream. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ However, having heard and considered that mere sights/visible objects are seen and that it is the attachment and proliferation on account of such that all sorts of 'unsuitable ideas' follows, very gradually awareness of the various dhammas involved does begin to develop. This isn't by a special trying or wishing not to have such ideas, but by appreciating the significance, by understanding the nature of seeing and visible object and the other dhammas for what they are. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Same old tune, and still off-key, IMO. Sorry, but that is clear to me. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- We agree on much about the nature of such dhammas, but always have a difference in understanding about the treatment. From my point of view, Howard, you'd like a Self to perform the treatment -------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: A mistaken point of view. -------------------------------------------------------------------- , whereas I'm very confident that the treatment is the wise attention, the consideration and understanding which arise naturally when all the right conditions are in place. No need to think or worry about trying to have more. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: And if wise attention, consideration, and understanding are not there - then DOOM! This is a doctrine of dumb luck. It is not what the Buddha taught. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Thank you for the excellent sutta and your well-considered comments. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: LOL! Where? When? How? ;-)) ---------------------------------------------------------------- Metta, Sarah ================================ With metta, Howard #81100 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jan 13, 2008 6:59 am Subject: Re: Is Nibbana a Dhamma? Is Nibbana really Anatta? buddhistmedi... Hi Scott (and Alex), - I appreciate the Pali text and the full English translation of the Mulaka Sutta you provided. I have a few questions for you; if it is alright with you, please consider answering them for me. >Scott(asking Alex): Are you suggesting that you understand Nanavira? T: Good question since I find Venerable Nanavira's writings quite deep and not easy to digest. But I have a feeling that you understand him well. Muulakasutta.m - The origin: "This should be your reply to the wandering ascetics of other sects. - 'Friends, interest (chanda), is the origin for all things and they come to being, through attention(manasikara). All things rise from a contact(phassa) and come together in feelings (vedana). Concentration(samadhi) is foremost for all things and mindfulness (sataadhipateyya) is the authority. Wisdom(pa.t.tuttaraa) is noble for all things and release(vimutti) is the essence(sara). All things dive in deathlessness and end in extinction." T: Please allow me to ask a few questions. 1. Because 'phassa paccaya vedana' and 'vedana paccaya tanha', does it straightforwardly follow that "all things are rooted in desire"? 2. Ven. Thanissaro: "These are rooted in desire, it says, because the desire to act (and thus create kamma) is what underlies their existence". Are you satisfied with the venerable's reasoning? I prefer the reason as shown in question 1. Any comment? 3. Is the Pali 'sataadhipateyya' a synonym of 'satipatthana' ? Or, is it different? 4. The following Pali text: 'Eva.m pu.t.thaa tumhe bhikkhave tesa.m a~n~natitthiyaana.m paribbaajakaana.m eva.m vyaakareyyaathaati.' is translated as 'All things dive in deathlessness and end in extinction'. But I think this translation is not complete. What is your thought? Thanks. Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Dear Alex, > > A: "You know the phrase that Sabbe Dhamma Anatta meaning that "all > Dhamma (things/phenomenon including Nibbana) are not self ". #81101 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Jan 13, 2008 7:02 am Subject: [dsg] Re: to James. Thank you all for your kindness. I really do want to understand but seem unable buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi James, > Op 13-jan-2008, om 10:54 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > > > James: This is why I call her a charlatan. From Dictionary.com: > > char·la·tan (shärl-tn) n. A person fraudulently claiming knowledge > > and skills not possessed. > -------- > N: How would you know? James: Well, tell me Nina. Do you believe that K. Sujin has awareness of dhammas as they arise and cease? Does she know all of her mind states, kusala and akusala? And please don't evade the question, be specific. I agree with DC that one cannot know someone > else's mind. Therefore, why not just talk about dhammas, not about > persons? James: This thread was about K. Sujin the person, not any dhammas. Ven. P introduced the topic I just contributed my viewpoint. > Another point, also someone who disagrees is my friend. Why only have > friendshipo for someone who agrees ? James: I didn't say that. I said that Phil is now my friend. He wasn't so much before. He used to write scathing posts to me and often tell the moderators to ban me from this group. Now he doesn't. My friends are those who are friendly to me. Actually, I went to the movies with Sebastian tonight and he reminded me to put my cell phone on silent. I did but told him that no one was probably going to call me. I said that I don't have that many friends in Taiwan, most of my friends nowadays are on the Internet ;- )). So, you see, I do consider most of those I disagree with as my friends. > Nina. > Metta, James #81102 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jan 13, 2008 2:07 am Subject: TYPO FIX Re: [dsg] Re: My Understanding of Ajahn Sujin's Interp... upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 1/13/2008 9:51:35 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@... writes: Howard: Sarah, you can and do choose to do lots of things. As for seeing or not seeing particular sights, of course we can exercise control. To see the sight we call "the back yard", we walk around back. To see the sight we call "the computer screen", we appropriately turn our head. To stop seeing that is currently seen can't be changed to something else, well, no kidding! It is already there! ============================== That paragraph got messed up. It should be as follows: Sarah, you can and do choose to do lots of things. As for seeing or not seeing particular sights, of course we can exercise control. To see the sight we call "the back yard", we walk around back. To see the sight we call "the computer screen", we appropriately turn our head. To stop seeing a sight we find unpleasant, we turn away or close our eyes. As for the fact that a sight that is currently seen can't be changed to something else, well, no kidding! It is already there! With metta, Howard #81103 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jan 13, 2008 7:16 am Subject: Re: Something on My Mind buddhistmedi... Hi Nina, - Thank you again for taking personal time to give me a clarification. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Tep, > there is a misunderstanding here. > Op 12-jan-2008, om 22:00 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > > > You seem to infer that either > > anupassana is the same as "seeing, hearing, etc. of nama & rupa", or > > the latter is preferred over the anupassana on the three > > characteristics of > > the khandhas. Please correct me if I misunderstood you. > ------- > N: Also the arahat has as object the five khandhas, and realizes them > as impermanent, dukkha and anatta. He has developed insight to the > full and has nothing further to be done. > He is seeing, hearing, thinking just like us now, but he has full > understanding of nama and rupa. He would not be interested in > dwelling on concepts such as science or know extraordinary things > going on in the universe. These are just "stories", not realities. > Nina. > > T: But from this reply I've a feeling that maybe we have to start all over from the beginning, since we are not yet in sync. Tep === #81104 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 13, 2008 7:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: to James. Thank you all for your kindness. I really do want to understand but seem unable nilovg Hi James, Op 13-jan-2008, om 16:02 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > James: Well, tell me Nina. Do you believe that K. Sujin has > awareness of dhammas as they arise and cease? Does she know all of > her mind states, kusala and akusala? And please don't evade the > question, be specific. -------- N: An impossible question to answer for me. I do not like to speculate about someone else. Just from the way someone explains the Dhamma so clearly, so well, one can know whether that person has developed understanding. No need to answer me, you will not agree with me and not much point to continue this thread. See you again with another thread. Nina. #81105 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 13, 2008 7:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Something on My Mind nilovg Hi Tep, Op 13-jan-2008, om 16:16 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > T: But from this reply I've a feeling that maybe we have to start all > over from the beginning, since we are not yet in sync. ------ N: It would be better to start with us worldlings now, what is there to be understood right now? Nina #81106 From: dhammanando@... Date: Sun Jan 13, 2008 7:29 am Subject: Re: This teacher or that teacher VS what the Buddha has actually said dhammanando_... Hi Alex, > While I agree with most, when it comes to Jhana the issue is not as > simple. When one starts to reach deeper and deeper levels in the > framedwork of Buddhist teaching, the Asavas start to fade and so is > the delusion of the ego. I wonder, have you read the account in the Brahmajaalasutta (DN. 1) of the origin of the 62 kinds of wrong view? If so, what do you make of the fact that some of these views arise in the aftermath of success in jhaanic cultivation? How can this be reconciled with the idea that the jhaanas per se cause a fading of the cankers? To be specific, according to the Brahmajaala: * the first three kinds of eternalism, first three kinds of partial eternalism, first three views on the finitude or infinity of the world, and the first kind of acausal originationism all arise in persons who have mastered all four ruupa jhaanas and then attained to knowledge of their former lives. * the second to the fifth wrong views of nibbaana here and now all arise in persons who have attained the first to the fourth ruupa jhaanas and then wrongly supposed this to be the highest goal. And so we have fourteen cases in which it would seem that far from the jhaanas causing the cankers to fade, the outcome has in fact been an increase in the canker of wrong view (di.t.thaasava). Best wishes, Dhammanando #81107 From: dhammanando@... Date: Sun Jan 13, 2008 7:31 am Subject: Re: This teacher or that teacher VS what the Buddha has actually said dhammanando_... Hi Larry, > Thanks for your interesting comments on Sarvastivada. Do you > see any important differences between Sarvastivada > abhidharma and Theravada abhidhamma? Yes, the major one is the Sarvastivadin claim of dharmas existing through the three periods of time. This is the subject of one of the lengthier debates in the Kathavatthu. The Sarvastivadins shared the Theravadin division of paramatthas into four classes: citta, caitta (=cetasika), rupa, and asamskrita (= asankhata/nibbana), but differed considerably on the question of which dhammas should be included in each class. Where the same dhammas are included, the Sarvastivadins' description of them sometimes closely matches the Theravadin one, but sometimes not. > I was thinking perhaps in their understanding of "sati" or > memory in general. Yes, it seems that the Sarvastivadins viewed sati as an ethically variable cetasika, not a sobhana one. This, along with the question of memory, is discussed by Nyanaponika in the appendix to his _Abhidhamma Studies_. > Also, I was wondering, is there any evidence that > Sarvastivada was ever aware of the existence of Theravada? They seem to have been vaguely aware of its existence, referring to it as the "Ceylon School" (Tamrasatiya), but I don't know if there are any extant texts where they discuss its teachings. In the Abhidharmakosha Vasubandhu often refers to the views of a school he calls the "Vibhajjavada", which of course is an alternative name for the Theravada. But the views he attributes to this school, though most often matching the Theravada ones, don't invariably do so. Presumably the school in question was Theravada-like, but not the Theravada itself. > Did Theravada as a sect begin with Buddhaghosa? Not according to its own account of its history. > Is there any evidence that Buddhaghosa or his early > commentators were aware of Sanskrit based schools? Yes, plenty. The commentary to the Kathavatthu would be the main source of information for this. > Did Ashoka come across any Theravadins in his travels? I don't know if there are any records of Ashoka's travels. The travelogues that are usually studied by scholars researching Indian Buddhist history are those of the Chinese pilgrims and translators. Best wishes, Dhammanando #81108 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Jan 13, 2008 7:37 am Subject: Re: Is Nibbana a Dhamma? Is Nibbana really Anatta? scottduncan2 Dear Alex, Thanks for the clarification: A: "Why in one instance "Sabbe Dhamma" means one thing, and in another case it means another? Is it possible that Nibbana is NOT a Dhamma?" Scott: Here's where a Paa.li lesson would truly come in handy. Bh. Bodhi translates the passage of the sutta thusly: "All things are rooted in desire. (Chandamuulakaa aavuso sabbe dhammaa) They come to actual existence through attention (manasikaarasambhavaa sabbe dhammaa), originate from contact and converge on feelings (phassasamudayaa sabbe dhammaa vedanaa samosara.na sabbe dhammaa). The foremost of things is concentration (samaadhipamukhaa sabbe dhammaa). All things are mastered by mindfulness (sataadhipateyyaa sabbe dhammaa). Their peak is wisdom, their essence liberation (pa.t.tuttaraa sabbe dhammaa, vimuttisaaraa sabbe dhammaa). All things merge in the Deathless and Nibbaana is their elimination (amatogadhaa sabbe dhammaa, nibbaana pariyosaanaa sabbe dhammaati)." [S: Corrections welcome regarding the matching of the Paa.li to the English] "Note 39. Chandamuulakaa aavuso sabbe dhammaa. The sense seems to be that the five aggregates ('all things') come to be through the craving of the previous life, which brought about the present existence." "Note 41. Since the Deathless and Nibbaana are synonymous, to justify the distinction between them here, AA identifies 'the Deathless' with the Nibbaana-element with a residue left, and Nibbaana with the Nibbaana-element with no residue left." Scott: Are you asking whether it is possible that, since the aggregates are designated as they are above (Chandamuulakaa aavuso sabbe dhammaa), Nibbaana as well must be 'rooted in desire' and therefore does not have the characterisic of anattaa? I think that the context of the sutta, when one reads the whole thing, makes the distinction between aggregates and Nibbaana apparent. Does Nibbaana 'come to actual existence through attention'? Not in my opinion. Does Nibbaana 'originate from contact and converge on feelings'? Not in my opinion. If 'all things merge in the Deathless', and if 'Nibbaana is their elimination', then Nibbaana itself cannot be the subject of the phrase 'All things are rooted in desire' (Chandamuulakaa aavuso sabbe dhammaa) - Nibbaana itself cannot merge in the Deathless, nor can Nibbaana be its own elimination. Sincerely, Scott. #81109 From: "Alex" Date: Sun Jan 13, 2008 7:37 am Subject: Re: to James. Thank you all for your kindness. I really do want to understand but seem unable truth_aerator Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > > Hi again > > I also think she places a strange, premature emphasis on sakkaya- > ditthi (view of self) when the Buddha places the emphasis on grosser > forms of wrong view, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/meditations2.htm l#contemplation11 Contemplation of the Body by Ven. TB However, the fact that people resist this meditation so much shows that it's important. It's threatening, for it gets right to the core of our attachment. There's nothing in the world we're attached to more than our own bodies. That's why people have so many excuses for not focusing right here. If you don't focus right here, what's going to happen? You're going to maintain your deep attachment to the body. It's not going to go away on its own. Some people think they can short circuit the process of attachment by going straight to their sense of self, thinking that by cutting out the sense of self they won't have to work on contemplation of the body because the work they're doing goes deeper, straight to the root. But attachment is like a vine: You can't find the root until you take hold of the nearest branch and trace it back. You can't really get to the root of your attachment to self until you've looked at where your most blatant day-to-day, moment-to-moment attachment is: right here at the body. The least little thing happens to your body and you can't stand it. A little bit of hunger, a little bit of thirst, too much heat, too much cold sets you running off. A little bit of illness and you go running for medicine. If that's not attachment, what is? -------- and I think labelling all formal meditation as > clinging to rules and rituals (I forget the Pali) is absurd. >>> You are right this is Absurd, and a wrong view to reduce N8P to N7P. There are proper and improper meditations. Those who diss Samma- Samadhi are damaging themselves, their students and Buddha Dhamma. The kammic results will be strong. If I weren't trying to keep the precept about 'Harsh Speech', then I'd say more. Lots of Metta and Compassion (they will need it), Alex #81110 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jan 13, 2008 7:48 am Subject: Re: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (73) .. sakkayaditthi ... buddhistmedi... Hi Nina, - We were talking about the tender insights. >Tep: Are the three ~naanas (called "tender > insights") similar to the kanika-samadhi which is preliminary to the > higher stages of samadhi in the jhaana? ------- N: Kanika samadhi is momentary concentration, but its use in the different contexts is a study apart. The three insight stages are not similar to concentration. They are stages of pa~n~naa. T: I am sorry for being ambiguous in the question. In fact I understand that samadhi is different from panna, but I only wanted to compare the function of kanika samadhi to the function of "tender insights", since they act as a support for the higher dhammas of the same kind. For example, kanika samadhi supports upajara samadhi in a similar manner that tender insights support maha-vipassana~nana. Now it is clear. >N: The tender insight beginning at the second one, realizing dhammas as being conditioned are dealt with in the Patisambhidhamagga: Ch IV, Dependent Origination,p. 50. Third stage, Sammasana ~naa.na, Comprehension, Ch V, p. 53. Ch VI, Rise and Fall , p. 55, and so on for the following ones. All stages, beginning at the first tender stage are in the Visuddhimagga. T: That is excellent! Now I understand clearly what 'tender insights' mean. I think the difficulty I had was due to different terminologies. For example, Mahasi Sayadaw has a clever way to explain about these three insights : 1. knowledge distinguishing between Mind and Matter (Namarupa pariccheda Nana); 2. knowledge distinguishing between Cause and Effect' (Paccaya Pariggaha Nana.); 3. knowledge of comprehension (Sammasana Nana). And he called them "mundane right understanding". >N: You can read what follows on Rob's web, or do you prefer hardcover? T: It was very kind of you to offer sending me a copy of khun Sujin's famous book. But Robert's Web site is adequately serving my need for now. Thank you very much, Nina. Tep === #81111 From: "Alex" Date: Sun Jan 13, 2008 7:48 am Subject: Re: This teacher or that teacher VS what the Buddha has actually said truth_aerator Dear Bhante, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, dhammanando@... wrote: > > Hi Alex, > > > While I agree with most, when it comes to Jhana the issue is not as > > simple. When one starts to reach deeper and deeper levels in the > > framedwork of Buddhist teaching, the Asavas start to fade and so is > > the delusion of the ego. > > I wonder, have you read the account in the Brahmajaalasutta (DN. 1) of the > origin of the 62 kinds of wrong view? >>> It is one of my favourite suttas in the DN. >>> If so, what do you make of the fact that some of these views arise in the aftermath of success in jhaanic cultivation? >>>> Jhanas can be used as a training tool in detachment OR they can be used to reinforce one's wrong beliefs. Jhana must go together with other Buddhist teachings (Anicca, Dukha, Anatta, DO, 4NT, etc). <<< > How can this be reconciled with the idea that the jhaanas per se cause a fading of the cankers? > >>> Jhanas provide a LOT of experience regarding Nibbana (in fact they are Nibbana here and now). Jhana shows that clinging is painful, cessation of clinging is blissful. Ultimately one has to transcend even Jhana itself since it is fashioned, willed, constructed, Anatta, dukha and impermanent. "I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana... the second jhana... the third... the fourth... the dimension of the infinitude of space... the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness. I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.036.than.html "Now, there is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities — enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of concentration, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. With the fading of rapture, he remains in equanimity, is mindful & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is called renunciation-pleasure, seclusion-pleasure, calm-pleasure, self-awakening-pleasure. And of this pleasure I say that it is to be cultivated, to be developed, to be pursued, that it is not to be feared. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.066.than.html Lots of Metta, Alex #81112 From: "Alex" Date: Sun Jan 13, 2008 7:59 am Subject: [dsg] Re: to James. Thank you all for your kindness. I really do want to understand but seem unable truth_aerator Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi James, > Op 13-jan-2008, om 16:02 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > > > James: Well, tell me Nina. Do you believe that K. Sujin has > > awareness of dhammas as they arise and cease? Does she know all of > > her mind states, kusala and akusala? And please don't evade the > > question, be specific. > -------- >>>>>> >>> N: Just from the way someone explains the Dhamma so clearly, so well, one can know whether that person has developed understanding. >>>>> Someone can recite all AP by heart in Pali word by word. But does this mean understanding? Does this mean that a scholar is an Arahant? It is one thing to learn about lets say wilderness survival from a very famous learned scholar, but is his/her advice better than from some unlearned but EXPERIENCED guide who has actually been there? A cd player can replay wisdom talk, does this means that this cd player is enlightened? Enlightment is cessation of Asavas, or we can say cessation of 10 fetters. This is what matters. A person may be a PhD in Buddhology, who has memorized AP + all the commentaries + VsM+ Abhidharmakosha of Vasubandhu + All other works of Vasubandhu + All works of Nagarguna, Candrakirti, Buddhapalita, Buddhaviveka, etc etc AND YET BE AN IGNORANT PUJJHANA. So please remember what you've said: >>> > N: An impossible question to answer for me. I do not like to speculate about someone else. >>>>> Lots of Metta, Alex #81113 From: Dieter Möller Date: Sun Jan 13, 2008 8:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: to James. Thank you all for your kindness. I really do want to understand but seem unable moellerdieter Hi Alex, you wrote: " A cd player can replay wisdom talk, does this means that this cd player is enlightened?" D: :-)) with Metta Dieter #81114 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Jan 13, 2008 8:18 am Subject: [dsg] Re: to James. Thank you all for your kindness. I really do want to understand but seem unable buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > -------- > N: An impossible question to answer for me. I do not like to > speculate about someone else. Just from the way someone explains the > Dhamma so clearly, so well, one can know whether that person has > developed understanding. James: Well, this is speculating, but nevermind. > No need to answer me, you will not agree with me and not much point > to continue this thread. > See you again with another thread. James: Okay, that's fine with me. You are a very sweet lady (and my elder :-) so when you say it's over then it's over! ;-)) > Nina. > Metta, James #81115 From: "Larry" Date: Sun Jan 13, 2008 8:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] thoughts on practice lbidd2 Hi Sarah, I thought we were going to give Htoo's email, "Real Dhamma" a thorough analysis with you leading the way. It seems like that would mean starting with a good explanation of Purification of View, the defining of nama and rupa, which has yet to happen. Since you haven't posted anything yet I'm going to outline that chapter of Vism. and post it in a day or so. Larry #81116 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jan 13, 2008 8:33 am Subject: [dsg] Re: to James. Thank you all for your kindness. I really do want to understand but seem unable buddhistmedi... Hi Alex, Nina, James, - I have a thought to share with you. The easiest test of whether a person is anagami is whether s/he has no anger. If s/he neither shows anger in any situation, nor shows even slightest conceit for many years, then it is likely that this person is near arahantship. But worldlings are not qualified to "measure" an ariyan (even a Sotapanna); we can only speculate, though. So, Nina was right. See MN112: Chabbisodana Sutta. The Sixfold Examination for testing a self-proclaimed arahant. Tep === (snipped) > > Enlightment is cessation of Asavas, or we can say cessation of 10 > fetters. This is what matters. ... > > >>> > > N: An impossible question to answer for me. I do not like to > speculate about someone else. #81117 From: "Larry" Date: Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:07 am Subject: Re: This teacher or that teacher VS what the Buddha has actually said lbidd2 Hi Bhikkhu Dhammanando, Thanks for answering my questions on the relationship between Theravada and Sarvastivada. It corrected several misconceptions and gave avenues for further investigation. Very Interesting. It seems also that Mahayana schools were not particularly aware of Theravada and had no acquaintance with the Visuddhimagga. A Chinese translation of the Vimuttimagga exists but I don't know if that is the extent of Chinese or Tibetan knowledge of Pali texts until very recently. Do you think that is due simply to Ceylon being relatively remote? I'm assuming here that Sarvastivada was classified as Hinayana. Is that correct? Is there any indication that Buddhaghosa was aware of Nagarjuna? The guess I have for his dates shows Nagarjuna being born about 100 years before Buddhaghosa. Larry #81118 From: Dieter Möller Date: Sun Jan 13, 2008 10:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anatta special vs. anicca and dukkha (was, Report ...) moellerdieter Hi Jon, sorry for slow response .. I should have answered your last mail already. you wrote: ( D: are you disagreeing that conceit is an underlying part of the self..?) Thinking some more about your comments here, I thought it might be useful to mention a couple of things. D: let me repeat a few key sentences from the suttas I quoted previously: S.N. 12.61 : For a long time this has been that with which he identifies himself, to which he has been attached and has held on to, thinking, 'This is mine,' 'I am this,' 'This is myself. S.N. 22.33 : At one time the Lord was staying near Saavatthii... and said: "What is not yours, bhikkhus, renounce it. Renouncing it will be to your good, to your happiness. And what, bhikkhus, is not yours? The body, bhikkhus, is not yours... Feeling... Perception... Mental activities... Consciousness, bhikkhus, is not yours, renounce it. Renouncing it will be to your good, to your happiness. S.N. 22.71: "Whatsoever body... feeling... perception... mental activities... consciousness, Raadha, past, future or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near, is looked upon as, 'This is not mine,' 'I am not this,' 'This is not myself' - in this manner it is seen according to actuality with perfect wisdom. Thus knowing, thus seeing, in this consciousness-endowed body and externally among all outer objects there is no I-ness, no mine-ness, no underlying tendency to conceit." Please note 'there is no I-ness, no mine-ness, no underlying tendency to conceit." all clearly refering to anatta J: First, when talking about anatta it is useful to clarify whether we are talking about anatta the characteristic, or whether we are talking about the wrong view of self. The former is a characteristic of all dhammas (including mental factors), while the latter is a mental factor. D: we talked about that when discussing the claim whether anatta should be seen as a strategy only.. in my opinion it is correct to have the anatta characteristic of all dhammas in mind when applying the strategy (namely for detachment), i.e. both aspects apply, the former a theory to be shown a law by practise. J: Secondly, since there is no self, it cannot really be said that conceit is an underlying part of the self. D: you are in disagreement with above Dhamma quotation .. Furthermore your claim 'there is no self ', is as I said book knowledge , a theory .. because since , long time ' we are attached to that delusion ... and furthermore what is to renounce , what to detach from when there is no self (identification).. as I see it , one of the base errors by students of K.S. J: However, if you are referring to conceit as a part of the *idea of self*, then bear in mind that the idea of self (also known as wrong view of self) is eradicated at the stage of stream entry, whereas the mental factor of conceit is not eradicated until the stage of arahant. So on that basis it would not be correct to regard conceit as being dependent on, or being a form of, an idea of self. D: there is 'self identification' up to Arahat level , at Stream-enterer level the belief in a self is given up ... I don't understand your conclusion.. For wordlings the statement 'there is no self' leads to nothing than confusion, the delusion is real until clear sight is developed (strategy). also good to recall following sutta: 'Having taken a seat to one side, Vacchagotta the wanderer said to the Master, 'Now then, Venerable Gotama, is there a self?' When this was said, the Master was silent. 'Then is there no self?' For a second time the Master was silent. Then Vacchagotta the wanderer got up from his seat and left. Then, not long after Vacchagotta the wanderer had left, the Venerable Ananda said to the Master, 'Why, sir, did the Master not answer when asked a question asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer?' 'Ananda, if I, being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is a self, were to answer that there is a self, that would be conforming with those priests & contemplatives who are exponents of eternalism (i.e., the view that there is an eternal soul). And if I... were to answer that there is no self, that would be conforming with those priests & contemplatives who are exponents of annihilationism (i.e., that death is the annihilation of experience). If I... were to answer that there is a self, would that be in keeping with the arising of knowledge that all phenomena are not-self? 'No, Lord.' 'And if I... were to answer that there is no self, the bewildered Vacchagotta would become even more bewildered: "Does the self which I used to have, now not exist?"' - S XLIV.10 with Metta Dieter #81119 From: "Alex" Date: Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:58 am Subject: [dsg] Re: to James. Thank you all for your kindness. I really do want to understand but seem unable truth_aerator Hi Tep, Nina and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Hi Alex, Nina, James, - > > I have a thought to share with you. > > The easiest test of whether a person is anagami is whether s/he has > no anger. If s/he neither shows anger in any situation, nor shows > even slightest conceit for many years, then it is likely that this > person is near arahantship. >>>> But here is a trick. How do we know that s/he doesn't have anger or aversion inside? People may be good at concealing (even from themselves) true emotions. Even if you could read his/her mind, then even that would not rule out lack of anger (if one comes from a Jhana, then anger may not arise for quite some time, even if the person is Pujjhana). Also, there were instances where Buddha has shown anger, or was distressed (externally of course.). To Devadatta eventually said what could be translated into english as "Go strait to Hell!". So simply having no visible anger is definately not enough either. One can appear angry but be peaceful inside. In case of Devadatta, Arittha, Sati the fishermans son, he was probably visibly angry for the good of others and them (except for 'Incurable' Devadatta who nonetheless is supposed to eventually become a Private Buddha). Remember MN 64&78? http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.078.than.html http://www.budsas.org/ebud/majjhima/064-maha-malunkhyaputta-e1.htm >>>>>>> But worldlings are not qualified > to "measure" an ariyan (even a Sotapanna); we can only speculate, > though. So, Nina was right. >>>> There are some things an Ariyan simply cannot do. If someone does it then we can be SURE that that person isn't Ariyan. For example a sotapanna follows a N8P, in fact anyone who follows N8P has to be a sotapanna atleast since Pujjhana CAN'T FOLLOW N8P. One of the factors of N8P is Samma-Samadhi. Those who don't follow Samma-samadhi UNDER ANY EXCUSES no matter how "good" it is - can't be Ariyas. Especially of Anagami/Arahatship type. Now this DOES NOT mean that one needs to live in a cave doing jhana 24/7. A second of Jhana = attainment worthy of respect (AN Book of Ones last 100-200 suttas), but ultimately more will be needed for higher stages. Buddha has gone to great length to make his teaching as clear as possible. It is some Scholars who consciously or subconsiously want to lead people, and for that they start to complicate the teachings so that some people would have to seek help, THEIR help. Samma- Samadhi is the 4 Jhanas which makes sense why Anagamis (who have to perfect Samma-Samadhi) get reborn in Pure Abodes (Correspond to 4th Jhana). Of course there are other 7 factors of which Right View is most important, but if you study what it means, you'll understand that it isn't a PhD in NamaRupology. ---- ânanda, until I could attain to, and rise from, the nine successive abidings [Alex:Jhanas + Nirodha Samapatti] in the ascending and descending order I did not declare to the world, together with its gods and men, maras and brahmas and the Community of recluses and Brahmins and gods and men, that I have realized noble rightful enlightenment. When I could attain to, and rise from, the nine successive abidings in the ascending and descending order I declare to the world, together with its gods and men, maras and brahmas and the Community of recluses and Brahmins and gods and men, that I have realized noble rightful enlightenment. Knowledge and vision arose to me, my release is immovable. This is my last birth, there is no more birth. (last paragraph) http://www.mettanet.org/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara- Nikaya/Anguttara6/09-navakanipata/004-mahavaggo-e.html "Only one book is worth reading: the heart." -- Ajahn Chah Lots of Metta, Alex #81120 From: "Alex" Date: Sun Jan 13, 2008 10:50 am Subject: Re: This teacher or that teacher VS what the Buddha has actually said truth_aerator Hi Larry, I am not Bhante D, however, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" wrote: > It seems also that Mahayana schools were not particularly aware of Theravada and had no acquaintance with the Visuddhimagga. >>> Guess why? Theravada as we know it could have been as late if not later than MAHAYANA. However lets remember that PALI canon is the earliest we have and as one scholar (Kalupahana ?) has said "There is not a single word in Pali Canon that belongs to Theravada" although I think that this is overstatement, but not without a grain of truth. I'm assuming > here that Sarvastivada was classified as Hinayana. Is that correct? >>>> As far as I know, yes. > Is there any indication that Buddhaghosa was aware of Nagarjuna? The guess I have for his dates shows Nagarjuna being born about 100 years before Buddhaghosa. > > Larry Nagarjuna was a (proto?) Mahayanist, Buddhaghosa proto Theravadin. Mahayanist lived before Theravadin Buddhaghosa... Go figure. Of course every sect will tell their own story how they are the "earliest" and those to whom the evidence to the contrary it too strong, will use another argument "Our teaching is the highest, most definate, quickest, etc that was hidden until the times when people could understand them". ------- Again, Sandaka, a certain teacher goes by hearsay and takes it as the truth. To a teacher who goes by hearsay, the tradition becomes the truth. He may have heard it correctly or may not have heard it correctly. It becomes the truth to him, the truth may be something else. Sandaka, a wise man should reflect. This teacher goes by hearsay. He preaches what has reached him by tradition and hearsay. What he has heard may be the truth or not. I, should know and turn away from that holy life as unsatisfactory. Sandaka, this is the second holy life, the Blessed One who knows, sees, is perfect and rightfully enlightened has declared as unsatisfactory and should not be lived. The wise man if possible does not live and even if he lives is not convinced, that it is merit.. Again, Sandaka, a certain teacher goes by logic, arguing logically brings out a teaching by himself beaten out. In the teaching of a logical teacher, some arguments may be true and others may not be true. Sandaka, a wise man should reflect. This teacher goes by logic. He preaches what he has beaten out by logical conclusion. His arguments may be authentic or not, I should know and turn away from that holy life as unsatisfactory. http://www.budsas.org/ebud/majjhima/076-sandaka-e1.htm The 2nd quotes would refute people such as Nagarjuna and Moggaliputta Tissa Thera (or anyone who spends too much time trying to make Buddhism Logical). Here is something I've found --- Hsuan Tsan 645 AD Sammatiya-Vatsiputriyas[Pugalavadins] — 1351 monasteries with 66,500 followers Sthaviravada (Theravada?) — 401 monasteries with 26,800 followers Sarvastivada — 158 monasteries with 23,700 followers Mahasanghikas — 24 monasteries with 1,100 followers Other schools — 145 monasteries with 6,700 followers 65% for the Pudgalavada 19% for Theravada(?)/ Sthaviravada 7.6% for Sarvastivada (Hinayana) 1.2% for Mahayana 7.2% for other traditions ----- Note the Biggest and most popular school. One of the possibilites is that the bigger schools started earlier, thus they had more time to gather followers. Furthermore, schisms generally happen from a Minority of monks. Of course someone will go and cite Dipavamsa and Mahavamsa as proof that "our tradition is the earliest" . But let us remember that each sect wants to authenticate itself and will, no doubt about it, cite its own sectarian version of events to the point of deliberately spinning information in its own favour. BTW, I consider Theravada to be proto - later Mahayana due to a later concept of Bodhisattva found in the later books of KN. Lets study the Suttas (4 Main Nikayas + first 6 KN books) and not their later interpretations. Lots of Metta, Alex #81121 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 13, 2008 11:24 am Subject: Re: TYPO FIX Re: [dsg] Re: My Understanding of Ajahn Sujin's Interp... nilovg Hi Howard, may I butt in. This catches my eyes, as you correct your post. Op 13-jan-2008, om 16:07 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Sarah, you can and do choose to do lots of things. As for seeing or > not > seeing particular sights, of course we can exercise control. To see > the > sight > we call "the back yard", we walk around back. To see the sight we > call "the > computer screen", we appropriately turn our head. To stop seeing a > sight we > find unpleasant, we turn away or close our eyes. As for the fact > that a > sight that is currently seen can't be changed to something else, > well, no > kidding! It is already there! ------- N: To me it seems that you do not speak about seeing, but about thinking on account of what is seen. When there is only seeing, it is not known whether the object is pleasant or not, or whether we rather turn the other side, whether we walk around the backyard. There are countless moments of just experiencing colour, just seeing, just vipaakacitta, the passive side of life. Seeing just sees and does not know anything else but colour. And so soon after seeing attachment arises, but we do not realize this. It happens already in the eye-door process. Processes go so fast. Anyway, you agree that what has already arisen cannot be changed. It is already there, and again and again. Just a few remarks, Nina. #81122 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 13, 2008 11:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] thoughts on practice nilovg Hi Larry, Op 13-jan-2008, om 17:20 heeft Larry het volgende geschreven: > Purification of View, the defining of nama and rupa, which has yet > to happen. Since you > haven't posted anything yet I'm going to outline that chapter of > Vism. and post it in a day > or so. ------- N: Perhaps Survey of Paramattha Dhammas can help: http://www.abhidhamma.org/Para12.htm I quoted about the stages of vipassana in my post to Tep. Nina. #81123 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jan 13, 2008 6:32 am Subject: Re: TYPO FIX Re: [dsg] Re: My Understanding of Ajahn Sujin's Interp... upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 1/13/2008 2:24:58 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, may I butt in. This catches my eyes, as you correct your post. Op 13-jan-2008, om 16:07 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Sarah, you can and do choose to do lots of things. As for seeing or > not > seeing particular sights, of course we can exercise control. To see > the > sight > we call "the back yard", we walk around back. To see the sight we > call "the > computer screen", we appropriately turn our head. To stop seeing a > sight we > find unpleasant, we turn away or close our eyes. As for the fact > that a > sight that is currently seen can't be changed to something else, > well, no > kidding! It is already there! ------- N: To me it seems that you do not speak about seeing, but about thinking on account of what is seen. When there is only seeing, it is not known whether the object is pleasant or not, or whether we rather turn the other side, whether we walk around the backyard. ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I'm talking about setting up conditions that influence *what* we will see. And we can & do manage that all the time! -------------------------------------------------------------- There are countless moments of just experiencing colour, just seeing, just vipaakacitta, the passive side of life. Seeing just sees and does not know anything else but colour. And so soon after seeing attachment arises, but we do not realize this. It happens already in the eye-door process. Processes go so fast. Anyway, you agree that what has already arisen cannot be changed. It is already there, and again and again. Just a few remarks ------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Your remarks are fine, Nina, but not relevant to my point. ----------------------------------------------------------- , Nina. ============================ With metta, Howard #81124 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Jan 13, 2008 11:34 am Subject: Re: Is Nibbana a Dhamma? Is Nibbana really Anatta? scottduncan2 Dear Tep, Thanks for the reply: T: "Good question since I find Venerable Nanavira's writings quite deep and not easy to digest. But I have a feeling that you understand him well." Scott: To the contrary, I don't read him, except when he is referenced. I consider him to be a neo-commentator whose views I equate with philosophical speculation. Since I could also speculate philosophically, and nowhere near as well as Nanavira, I dismiss it all (including my own petty, simplistic speculations). Also, I imagine clinically that he suffered from some sort of mood-related inflation of the ego which, in a very bright man, was cause for flights of ideas and academic activity. Since he was highly gifted intellectually, this flight of ideas seems scintillating and must be captivating to those readers who become like deer in the headlights. Scott: I must apologise and correct an error in transposition. 'Pa.t.tuttara', below, should be 'Pa~n~nuttara'. "...(sataadhipateyya) is the authority. Wisdom(pa.t.tuttaraa) is noble for all things and release(vimutti) is the essence(sara). All things dive in deathlessness and end in extinction." T: "1. Because 'phassa paccaya vedana' and 'vedana paccaya tanha', does it straightforwardly follow that 'all things are rooted in desire'?" Scott: What do you think of the note provided in Bh. Bodhi's translation? "Note 39. Chandamuulakaa aavuso sabbe dhammaa. The sense seems to be that the five aggregates ('all things') come to be through the craving of the previous life, which brought about the present existence." Scott: D.O. in reference to past life to current life, on the one hand (that is, this existence rooted in the desire of the last existence); and in reference to this life only on the other hand (that is phassaa paccaya vedanaa, vedanaa paccaya ta.nhaa). T: "2. Ven. Thanissaro: 'These are rooted in desire, it says, because the desire to act (and thus create kamma) is what underlies their existence. Are you satisfied with the venerable's reasoning? I prefer the reason as shown in question 1. Any comment? Scott: Again, there are two aspects of D.O. being discussed. Your focus, and that of Ven. Thanissaro apparently, is on the movement within a single existence, while the phrase in question seems understandable in terms of two existences. I favour the past life/current life explanation. It makes sense, since kamma bears fruit in a new existence until Nibbaana, that this also refers to the two existence mode. I don't particularly care for Ven. Thanissaro's opinions. He has his own ideas about Nibbaana and anattaa. I made reference to his note since I think Alex is an afficianado and even Ven. Thanissaro doesn't come up with the theory that Nibbaana as well must be rooted in desire. T: "3. Is the Pali 'sataadhipateyya' a synonym of 'satipatthana' ? Or, is it different?" Scott: I'm not sure. Good question. I think its different. The PTS PED gives: "Sata [pp. of sarati...] remembering, mindful, conscious..." "Adhipati (n. -- adj.) [adhi + pati, cp. adhipa] 1. ruler, master...2. ruling over, governing, predominant; ruled or governed by..." Scott: I'll need help from the Paa.li scholars here, but it seems to be referring to sati alone, but dhammas work in unison. That's the best I can do here, Tep. T: "4. The following Pali text: 'Eva.m pu.t.thaa tumhe bhikkhave tesa.m a~n~natitthiyaana.m paribbaajakaana.m eva.m vyaakareyyaathaati.' is translated as 'All things dive in deathlessness and end in extinction'. But I think this translation is not complete. What is your thought?" Scott: I think 'Eva.m pu.t.thaa tumhe bhikkhave tesa.m a~n~natitthiyaana.m paribbaajakaana.m eva.m vyaakareyyaathaati' is rendered, 'On being asked this by those who have gone forth in other sects, this is how you should answer'. 'All things dive in deathlessness and end in extinction' is 'vimuttisaaraa sabbe dhammaa, amatogadhaa sabbe dhammaa, nibbaana pariyosaanaa sabbe dhammaati', I think, and stand to be corrected. The PTS PED: "Amata (nt.) [a + mata ...] 1. The drink of the gods, ambrosia, water of immortality...2. A general conception of a state of durability & non -- change, a state of security i. e. where there is not any more rebirth or re -- death...-- ogadha diving into the ambrosia (of Nibbaana)" Scott: I need help with 'pariyosaana'. The PTS PED gives: "Pariya [either short form of pariyaaya, or ger. of pari+ii substantivised (for the regular form paricca) representing an ending -- ya instead of -- tya. -- Bdhgh at Vism 409 takes pariya as nt., but seems to mix it with the idea of a ppr. by defining it as 'pariyaatii ti pariyaÅ‹, paricchindatii ti attho'] encompassing, fathoming, comprehending (as ger.); penetration, understanding (as n.). Only in phrase ceto -- pariya -- ñÄ?ṇa knowledge encompassing heart or mind (cp. phrase cetasaa ceto paricca) D ii.82 sq. (v. l. Ëšaaya); iii.100 (v. l. Ëšaaye); DA i.223 (corresp. with pubbe -- nivaasa -- ~naa.na); with which alternates the phrase indriya -- paro -- pariya -- ~naa.na in same meaning (see indriya cpds. & remark on paropariya) J i.78. -- See also pariyatta1 pariyatti, pariyaaya 3, and cpds. of ceto." Sincerely, Scott. #81125 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 13, 2008 11:38 am Subject: Re: TYPO FIX Re: [dsg] Re: My Understanding of Ajahn Sujin's Interp... nilovg Hi Howard, Op 13-jan-2008, om 20:32 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Howard: > I'm talking about setting up conditions that influence *what* we will > see. And we can & do manage that all the time! -------- N: You mean seeing? Vipaakacitta, result of kamma? But could anybody influence kamma? Nina. #81126 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 13, 2008 11:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is Nibbana a Dhamma? Is Nibbana really Anatta? nilovg Dear Scott, Op 13-jan-2008, om 20:34 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: > nibbaana > pariyosaanaa sabbe dhammaati' ------ N: How about: the ending of all dhammas? Thus, no more rebirth. Nina. #81127 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jan 13, 2008 6:57 am Subject: Re: TYPO FIX Re: [dsg] Re: My Understanding of Ajahn Sujin's Interp... upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 1/13/2008 2:38:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Op 13-jan-2008, om 20:32 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Howard: > I'm talking about setting up conditions that influence *what* we will > see. And we can & do manage that all the time! -------- N: You mean seeing? Vipaakacitta, result of kamma? But could anybody influence kamma? ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Nina, our volitional actions ARE kamma! (Nina, on occasion, and this is one such, what you have to say and what the Buddha had to say are not very close.) ----------------------------------------------- Nina. ======================== With metta, Howard #81128 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jan 13, 2008 12:03 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Something on My Mind buddhistmedi... Hi Nina, - I have not yet met anyone who is more patient than you. > > T: But from this reply I've a feeling that maybe we have to start all over from the beginning, since we are not yet in sync. > ------ > N: It would be better to start with us worldlings now, what is there > to be understood right now? T: There can be several right answers to this question. To me understanding the current mind-sate is most important. "And how is a monk skilled in reading his own mind? [He should examine his own mind as follws:] 'Do I usually remain covetous or not? With thoughts of ill will or not? Overcome by sloth & drowsiness or not? Restless or not? Uncertain or gone beyond uncertainty? Angry or not? With soiled thoughts or unsoiled thoughts? With my body aroused or unaroused? Lazy or with persistence aroused? Unconcentrated or concentrated?' [AN 10.51 Sacitta Sutta, One's Own Mind] Tep === #81129 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Jan 13, 2008 12:46 pm Subject: Re: Is Nibbana a Dhamma? Is Nibbana really Anatta? scottduncan2 Dear Nina, Thank you for the help: N: "nibbaana "pariyosaanaa sabbe dhammaati'" How about: the ending of all dhammas? Thus, no more rebirth." Scott: I think I was parsing it wrong and hence failed to find the compound in the PTS PED: "Pariyosaana (nt.) [pari+osaana of ava+saa] 1. end, finish, conclusion... 2. end, i. e. perfection, ideal, Arahantship..." Scott: I was at least accurate in suggesting that Tep had mixed up the phrase being translated. This would add to the suggestion that, since nibbaana is 'the ending of all dhammas', it cannot also be 'rooted in desire'. I suppose nibbaana can be the object of desire, but this would then be nibbaana as concept and citta would be rooted in desire, not Nibbaana. Sincerely, Scott. #81130 From: "Larry" Date: Sun Jan 13, 2008 12:56 pm Subject: Re: thoughts on practice lbidd2 Hi Sarah, Here are a few comments interspersed. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Larry, > > --- LBIDD@... wrote: > > Larry: "Heightened" is my own term. Maybe there is something in Pali?? > > It is meant to distinguish a level of concentration that is more intense > > than the ordinary concentration that arises with every consciousness. It > > can be either wholesome or unwholesome. Even in the act of robbing a > > bank it could be wholesome or unwholesome. The unwholesome is with > > hindrances and the wholesome is without hindrances. A bank robber could > > hold his weapon with perfect purity, like a samurai. But if the samurai > > is proud, that is impure, unwholesome concentration. > ... > S: Fine. As you say, such 'heightened concentration' can be pure or > impure. Usually, the latter. I don't know a Pali term. Of course, > concentration can be strong or weak, focussed on one object or idea or > many objects or ideas. ---------------------- Larry: I think concentration cetasika limits the flow of objects from moment to moment to just one object whether concept or reality. With a jhana type concentration or mindfulness practice there is a deliberate attempt to stay with that one object or one type of object such as breath for some time, but there also seems to be a clarity factor that may not entail staying with one object. I don't know exactly how to account for this clarity factor in abhidhamma terms. What it refers to is 'being in the moment' rather than clinging to projections of past or future. I think it can arise with either kusala or akusala cittas, but maybe not. If it arises only with kusala cittas it might be an aspect of panna or sati. It is definitely necessary for insight. --------------------- > .... > > > > Sarah: "You go on to say that 'heightened concentration is what we mean > > by 'mindfulness'. So this common meaning of mindfulness is very > > different from sati (awareness) in the teachings then?" > > > > Larry: Actually, I have a quibble about "mindfulness". "Sati" is often > > translated as "mindfulness". but what people usually mean by > > "mindfulness" is paying attention to something. IMO this is > > concentration. > ... > S: Again, I agree, almost always unwholesome concentration and unwise > attention, however worthy it may seem! For example, whilst cooking, > driving, studying for an exam or talking on the phone, unless the cittas > are dana, sila or bhavana, then any 'paying attention' is unwholesome. > (Remember, there is manasikara (attention) with each citta too.)This > doesn't mean there should be a change from such activities. It means that > any time, like now there are dhammas appearing and there can be wise > attention, wise considering and understanding of such dhammas. --------------------------- Larry: I agree. My point was mostly a translation issue with reference to conventional usage of the word "mindfulness". It seems to me that what we usually mean by "being mindful" is more about concentration than remembering the dhamma. Maybe it isn't such a great point. "Being mindful" could also mean remembering to stay with one object or be awake in the moment. It is difficult to make clear cut distinctions in experience. --------------------------- > .... > >"Sati" is actually recollection and recognition. I would > > classify it as the first three insights, called "tender insight": > > determination of namarupa, dependent arising, and what is path and not > > path. Insight knowledge I would classify as right view in the 8-fold > > path. > .... > S: Sati is awareness - it 'remembers' to be aware. It arises with all > wholesome cittas, even those without any panna at all. We cannot classify > it as the first three (tender) insights. These however are insight > knowledge, vipassana panna. -------------------------- Larry: Not exactly insight knowledge. In tender insight there is a good deal of remembering what we learned in abhidhamma class. We can discuss this further in Htoo's thread. It would be good to understand why tender insight isn't insight knowledge. -------------------------- > .... > > > > Sarah: "This is why people have an idea of losing ones keys or > > forgetting the shopping list as being indications of a lack of > > mindfulness. Nothing to do with sati or (kusala) samadhi then?" > > > > Larry: I think absent mindedness is okay. We don't need a lot of mind > > for wholesome concentration. It isn't meant to make us more efficient. > ... > S: Good point! The aim is not worldly efficiency, but wise attention with > understanding. The wise attention can slip in anytime, even when looking > for the keys. > ... > > > > These thoughts were mostly focused on practice as the practice of > > concentration. Insight may or may not arise. > ... > S: As I've been stressing to others, right concentration cannot develop > without right understanding (whether we're talking about the development > of samatha or the development of satipatthana). ------------------------- Larry: I think right concentration can easily arise without much in the way of insight. The lust for insight might be a bit of a hindrance. Right concentration can be just 'awake'. -------------------------- > .... > >In some sense it isn't even > > important. > ... > S: I think these are important points to discuss and clarify - otherwise > people just focus and concentrate with a mistake idea that if the object > is one mentioned in the texts, then it must be wholesome. -------------------------- Larry: It's difficult to say what is what. In anticipation of discussing Purification of View I've been looking more closely at my experience and in mindfulness of breathing I think what I thought was desire is actually the air element in the sense of "force". But that isn't to say my meditation is "right". Usually my mindfulness of breathing is not quite "right" but I think the general situation _is_ "right" most of the time for everyone. (This probably doesn't make abhidhamma sense;-)) --------------------------- > .... > >In my own limited experience insight has arisen only in > > recognizing hindrances, and even then only on a very shallow level. For > > me, the value of concentration is in momentarily being free from > > hindrances rather than entering an exotic meditative state (jhana). > ... > S: Even if there is an aim of being very temporarily free from hindrances, > we should consider whether it's kusala or akusala. It's easy to be misled > by a desire for such. ------------------------- Larry: Free from hindrances is always kusala and desire is always akusala. When practice becomes routine that can eliminate some desire but concentration free from hindrances can also happen just walking down the street. It is difficult discriminating between particular dhammas but I think it is not so difficult to tell when you are free and when not. -------------------------- > > Thanks for your helpful clarifications, Larry. I've let the other thread > with the article slide because I think Nina and Howard picked up the main > points. > > Is there anything else here to discuss further or from your original > reflections? I've enjoyed discussing this first part with you. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======== > ---------------------------- I've enjoyed discussing this too but I have to say, thinking about concentration is a bit of a hindrance ;-) Larry #81131 From: "Alex" Date: Sun Jan 13, 2008 12:56 pm Subject: Re: Is Nibbana a Dhamma? Is Nibbana really Anatta? truth_aerator Hi Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: This would add to the suggestion that, since nibbaana is 'the ending of all dhammas', it cannot also be 'rooted in desire'. > Sincerely, > > Scott. > So since Nibbana is ending of ALL dhammas, then it isn't dhamma itself. This would mean that "Sabbe Dhamma Anatta" doesn't have to refer to Nibbana since nibbana is when ALL dhammas are gone. Lots of Metta, Alex #81132 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Jan 13, 2008 1:09 pm Subject: Re: Is Nibbana a Dhamma? Is Nibbana really Anatta? scottduncan2 Dear Alex, Thanks for the reply: A: "So since Nibbana is ending of ALL dhammas, then it isn't dhamma itself..." Scott: How do you figure this, Alex? What definition of 'dhamma' are you using? A: "...This would mean that 'Sabbe Dhamma Anatta' doesn't have to refer to Nibbana since nibbana is when ALL dhammas are gone." Scott: Here's Nyanatiloka: "...One cannot too often and too emphatically stress the fact that not only for the actual realization of the goal of Nibbaana, but also for a theoretical understanding of it, it is an indispensable preliminary condition to grasp fully the truth of anattaa, the egolessness and insubstantiality of all forms of existence. Without such an understanding, one will necessarily misconceive Nibbaana - according to one's either materialistic or metaphysical leanings - either as annihilation of an ego, or as an eternal state of existence into which an ego or self enters or with which it merges. Hence it is said: Mere suffering exists, no sufferer is found; The deed is, but no doer of the deed is there; Nibbaana is, but not the man that enters it; The path is, but no traveler on it is seen.; Vis.MXVI" Scott: Why do you wish to entertain that Nibaana could be exempt from a)being a dhamma, and b) having anattaa as its characteristic? Sincerely, Scott. #81133 From: "Larry" Date: Sun Jan 13, 2008 1:11 pm Subject: Re: This teacher or that teacher VS what the Buddha has actually said lbidd2 Hi Alex, I couldn't follow some of your argument below but here's a couple of comments: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > > Hi Larry, > > I am not Bhante D, > > however, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" wrote: > > > It seems also that Mahayana schools were not particularly aware of > Theravada and had no acquaintance with the Visuddhimagga. > >>> > > Guess why? Theravada as we know it could have been as late if not > later than MAHAYANA. However lets remember that PALI canon is the > earliest we have and as one scholar (Kalupahana ?) has said > "There is not a single word in Pali Canon that belongs to Theravada" > although I think that this is overstatement, but not without a grain > of truth. ----------------------- Larry: Regarding what happened when I would like to see a detailed timeline. As far as what is truely Theravada the only evidence is the Pali canon. ----------------------- > > > I'm assuming > > here that Sarvastivada was classified as Hinayana. Is that correct? > >>>> > > As far as I know, yes. > > > > Is there any indication that Buddhaghosa was aware of Nagarjuna? > The guess I have for his dates shows Nagarjuna being born about 100 > years before Buddhaghosa. > > > > Larry > > Nagarjuna was a (proto?) Mahayanist, Buddhaghosa proto Theravadin. > > Mahayanist lived before Theravadin Buddhaghosa... Go figure. > > Of course every sect will tell their own story how they are > the "earliest" and those to whom the evidence to the contrary it too > strong, will use another argument "Our teaching is the highest, most > definate, quickest, etc that was hidden until the times when people > could understand them". > > ------- > > Again, Sandaka, a certain teacher goes by hearsay and takes it as the > truth. To a teacher who goes by hearsay, the tradition becomes the > truth. He may have heard it correctly or may not have heard it > correctly. It becomes the truth to him, the truth may be something > else. Sandaka, a wise man should reflect. This teacher goes by > hearsay. He preaches what has reached him by tradition and hearsay. > What he has heard may be the truth or not. I, should know and turn > away from that holy life as unsatisfactory. Sandaka, this is the > second holy life, the Blessed One who knows, sees, is perfect and > rightfully enlightened has declared as unsatisfactory and should not > be lived. The wise man if possible does not live and even if he lives > is not convinced, that it is merit.. > > Again, Sandaka, a certain teacher goes by logic, arguing logically > brings out a teaching by himself beaten out. In the teaching of a > logical teacher, some arguments may be true and others may not be > true. Sandaka, a wise man should reflect. This teacher goes by logic. > He preaches what he has beaten out by logical conclusion. His > arguments may be authentic or not, I should know and turn away from > that holy life as unsatisfactory. > http://www.budsas.org/ebud/majjhima/076-sandaka-e1.htm > The 2nd quotes would refute people such as Nagarjuna and Moggaliputta > Tissa Thera (or anyone who spends too much time trying to make > Buddhism Logical). > > > > Here is something I've found > > --- > Hsuan Tsan 645 AD > > Sammatiya-Vatsiputriyas[Pugalavadins] — 1351 monasteries with 66,500 > followers > Sthaviravada (Theravada?) — 401 monasteries with 26,800 followers > Sarvastivada — 158 monasteries with 23,700 followers > Mahasanghikas — 24 monasteries with 1,100 followers > Other schools — 145 monasteries with 6,700 followers > > 65% for the Pudgalavada > 19% for Theravada(?)/ Sthaviravada > 7.6% for Sarvastivada (Hinayana) > 1.2% for Mahayana > 7.2% for other traditions > ----- > > Note the Biggest and most popular school. One of the possibilites is > that the bigger schools started earlier, thus they had more time to > gather followers. Furthermore, schisms generally happen from a > Minority of monks. > > Of course someone will go and cite Dipavamsa and Mahavamsa as proof > that "our tradition is the earliest" . But let us remember that each > sect wants to authenticate itself and will, no doubt about it, cite > its own sectarian version of events to the point of deliberately > spinning information in its own favour. > > BTW, I consider Theravada to be proto - later Mahayana due to a later > concept of Bodhisattva found in the later books of KN. > > Lets study the Suttas (4 Main Nikayas + first 6 KN books) and not > their later interpretations. > > > > Lots of Metta, > > Alex > -------------------- Larry: I couldn't follow the above except "Lets study the Suttas". I would say learn where you can. Larry #81134 From: "Larry" Date: Sun Jan 13, 2008 1:21 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] thoughts on practice lbidd2 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Larry, > Op 13-jan-2008, om 17:20 heeft Larry het volgende geschreven: > > > Purification of View, the defining of nama and rupa, which has yet > > to happen. Since you > > haven't posted anything yet I'm going to outline that chapter of > > Vism. and post it in a day > > or so. > ------- > N: Perhaps Survey of Paramattha Dhammas can help: > http://www.abhidhamma.org/Para12.htm > > I quoted about the stages of vipassana in my post to Tep. > Nina. Hi Nina, Didn't you give a series on the insight knowledges or the various stages of purification sometime in the past year? I looked but couldn't find it. If you have a date that would be helpful. Which post to Tep are you referring to? Thanks for the "Survey" reference. I'm sure it will be useful. Larry #81135 From: "Alex" Date: Sun Jan 13, 2008 1:27 pm Subject: Re: Is Nibbana a Dhamma? Is Nibbana really Anatta? truth_aerator Dear Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Dear Alex, > > Thanks for the reply: > > A: "So since Nibbana is ending of ALL dhammas, then it isn't dhamma > itself..." > > Scott: How do you figure this, Alex? What definition of 'dhamma' are > you using? >>> Dhamma - All things, perhaps? > A: "...This would mean that 'Sabbe Dhamma Anatta' doesn't have to > refer to Nibbana since nibbana is when ALL dhammas are gone." > > Scott: Here's Nyanatiloka: > > "...One cannot too often and too emphatically stress the fact that not > only for the actual realization of the goal of Nibbaana, but also for > a theoretical understanding of it, it is an indispensable preliminary > condition to grasp fully the truth of anattaa, the egolessness and > insubstantiality of all forms of existence. >>> Is Nibbana a form of existence? No of course. >>>>>>> Without such an understanding, one will necessarily misconceive Nibbaana - according > to one's either materialistic or metaphysical leanings - either as > annihilation of an ego, or as an eternal state of existence into which > an ego or self enters or with which it merges. >>> It is beyond existence or nonexistence. These 2 and permutations of them don't apply. >>>>> Hence it is said: > > Mere suffering exists, no sufferer is found; > The deed is, but no doer of the deed is there; > Nibbaana is, but not the man that enters it; > The path is, but no traveler on it is seen.; Vis.MXVI" >>>>> Thats a VsM take and it is a slight divergence from the Suttas. > Scott: Why do you wish to entertain that Nibaana could be exempt from > a)being a dhamma, and b) having anattaa as its characteristic? > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > Because it is beyond Existence & non-existence! It is end of phenomenon, including Anatta. Lots of Metta, Alex #81136 From: "Alex" Date: Sun Jan 13, 2008 1:32 pm Subject: Re: This teacher or that teacher VS what the Buddha has actually said truth_aerator Hi Larry, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" wrote: Larry: Regarding what happened when I would like to see a detailed timeline. As far as > what is truely Theravada the only evidence is the Pali canon. > ----------------------- > > Theravada is NOT pali canon itself: It is take of people like Buddhaghosa & Mogaliputta Tissa Thera. It is a set of interpretations of Pali Suttas. It includes commentaries such as VsM, AA and other later works such as AP. > -------------------- > Larry: I couldn't follow the above except "Lets study the Suttas". I would say learn where > you can. > > Larry > Learn the best and most authentic teaching, that is Buddha's teaching outlined in 4 Nikayas plus few books of KN. The water is cleaner at the source. Lots of Metta, Alex #81137 From: "Alex" Date: Sun Jan 13, 2008 1:37 pm Subject: Re: This teacher or that teacher VS what the Buddha has actually said truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > > Hi Larry, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" wrote: > Larry: Regarding what happened when I would like to see a detailed > timeline. I forgot it in previous post: Eighteen schools The exact lineages of the different schools is complex and open to differences of perception. Different traditions and scholarship hold to different views. Hence, the following listing is not 'set in stone': Sthaviravāda Pudgalavāda ('Personalist') (c. 280 BCE) Vibhajjavāda (prior to 240 BCE; during Aśoka) Theravāda (c. 240 BCE) Considered to be a continuation of Sthaviravāda and Vibhajjavāda Mahīśāsaka (after 232 BCE) Kāśyapīya (after 232 BCE) Dharmaguptaka (after 232 BCE) Vatsīputrīya (under Aśoka) later name: Saṃmitīya Dharmottarīya Bhadrayānīya Sannāgarika Sarvāstivāda (c. 237 BCE) Mūlasarvāstivāda (third and fourth centuries) Sautrāntika (between 50 BCE and c. 100 CE) Mahāsaṃghika ('Majority', c. 380 BCE) Ekavyahārikas (under Aśoka) Lokottaravāda Golulika (during Aśoka) Bahuśrutīya (late third century BCE) Prajñaptivāda (late third century BCE) Cetiyavāda Caitika (mid-first century BCE) Apara Śaila Uttara Śaila [edit] Nikaya Schools according to Sri Lanka Theravadin chronicles This list was taken from Dipavamsa and Mahavamsa. [alex: Obviously here the surviving school insists that it is same as Sthaviravada and Vibhajjavada. No surprise here. Notice below that Sarvastivadins didn't mention Theravada or Vibhajjavada. Maybe because they came before those two schools?] Sthaviravāda/Vibhajjavāda/Theravāda Mahimsasaka (Sanskrit: Mahīśāsaka) - First schism Sabbatthavada (Sanskrit: Sarvāstivāda) - Third schism Kassapiya (Sanskrit: Kāśyapīya - Forth schism Sankantika (Sanskrit: Sankrantika) - Fifth schism Suttavada (Sanskrit: Sautrāntika) - Sixth Schism Dhammaguttika (Sanskrit: Dharmaguptaka) - Third schism Vajjiputtaka (Sanskrit: Vatsīputrīya) - First schism Dhammutariya (Sanskrit: Dharmottarīya - Second schism Bhadrayanika (Sanskrit: Bhadrayānīya) - Second schism Chandagarika (Sanskrit: Sannāgarika - Second schism Saṃmitīya - Second schism Mahāsaṃghika Gokulika (Sanskrit: Kaukutika) - First schism Pannati (Sanskrit: Prajñaptivāda) - Second schism Bahussutaka (Sanskrit: Bahuśrutīya) - Second schism Ekavyoharika (Sanskrit: Ekavyahārikas) - First schism Cetiyavada (Sanskrit: Caitika) - Third schism; According to Dipavamsa, but in the Mahavamsa it is said to have arisen from the Pannati and Bahussutaka) In addition, the Dipavamsa lists the following six schools without identifying the schools from which they arose: Hemavatika (Sanskrit: Haimavata) Rajagiriya Siddhatthaka Pubbaseliya Aparaseliya (Sanskrit: Aparasaila) Apararajagirika [edit] Nikaya Schools according to Sarvastivadin chronicles This list was taken from Samayabhedo Paracana Cakra, the author was Vasumitra a Sarvastivadin monk. Sthaviravāda Haimavata - First schism; referred by Sarvastivadins as the `original Sthavira School', but this school only influential in the north of India. Sarvāstivāda - First schism Vatsīputrīya - Second schism Dharmottarīya - Third schism Bhadrayānīya - Third schism Saṃmitīya - Third schism Sannāgarika - Third schism Mahīśāsaka- Forth schism Dharmaguptaka - Fifth schism Kāśyapīya - Sixth schism Sautrāntika - Seventh Schism Mahāsaṃghika Ekavyahārikas - First schism Lokottaravāda - First schism Kaukutika - First schism Bahuśrutīya - Second schism Prajñaptivāda - Third schism Caitika - Forth schism Apara Śaila - Forth schism Uttara Śaila - Forth schism see the charts at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Buddhist_schools #81138 From: "Alex" Date: Sun Jan 13, 2008 2:12 pm Subject: Sects and Buddha Dhamma truth_aerator Hello all. If we take all major Yanas ("Hina", "Maha" and Vajjra) what we have is an agreement that 4 Nikayas are authoritative. However almost every school has its own commentaries, vinaya, and Abhidhamma through which they strongly disagree and engage in ridiculous polemics with each other. Sarvastivadins for example would also use the Sutta (if I remember correctly Sanskrit version of them) with only minor practical differences. Where the big divergence is, is in the theoretical tenets and explanations of various philosophical tenets. Many of them are about the status of Buddha, Arahant, nature of enlightment (sudden or gradual), ontological status of Dhammas, etc. --- Each school developed its own distinctive Abhidhamma literature, ostensibly representing a deeper understanding of the teachings of the Buddha. In practice, the literature served to distinguish one school from another, guarding against and/or correcting the "erroneous" teachings of the other schools. Over a period of approximately three centuries, the Abhidhamma Pitaka grew rapidly -- in terms of the sheer volume of literature as well as complexity of doctrine. Abhidhamma Studies: Buddhist Explorations of Consciousness and Time. By Venerable Nyanaponika Thera Reviewed by Shrader, Douglas W. http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-PHIL/ew99068.htm --- But the fact remains that they all generally agree with 4 Nikayas, except they add some of their own books -VsM, AP, and theravadin commentaries for Theravada, -New "Deeper" Sutras, Kosas and Sastras for Mahayana - Tantras, Dzogchen, Bon and Nagarjunian Madhymaka for Vajjrayna etc. So lets be non-sectarian and study the Universal Teaching of the Buddha - the 4 Nikayas + few books of KN !!!! Lots of Metta, Alex #81139 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Jan 13, 2008 2:37 pm Subject: Re: Is Nibbana a Dhamma? Is Nibbana really Anatta? scottduncan2 Dear Alex, Thanks for the reply. Let's hear your theory, shall we? Sincerely, Scott. #81140 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sects and Buddha Dhamma upasaka_howard Hi, Alex - In a message dated 1/13/2008 5:13:07 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, truth_aerator@... writes: Hello all. If we take all major Yanas ("Hina", "Maha" and Vajjra) what we have is an agreement that 4 Nikayas are authoritative. However almost every school has its own commentaries, vinaya, and Abhidhamma through which they strongly disagree and engage in ridiculous polemics with each other. Sarvastivadins for example would also use the Sutta (if I remember correctly Sanskrit version of them) with only minor practical differences. Where the big divergence is, is in the theoretical tenets and explanations of various philosophical tenets. Many of them are about the status of Buddha, Arahant, nature of enlightment (sudden or gradual), ontological status of Dhammas, etc. --- Each school developed its own distinctive Abhidhamma literature, ostensibly representing a deeper understanding of the teachings of the Buddha. In practice, the literature served to distinguish one school from another, guarding against and/or correcting the "erroneous" teachings of the other schools. Over a period of approximately three centuries, the Abhidhamma Pitaka grew rapidly -- in terms of the sheer volume of literature as well as complexity of doctrine. Abhidhamma Studies: Buddhist Explorations of Consciousness and Time. By Venerable Nyanaponika Thera Reviewed by Shrader, Douglas W. http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-PHIL/ew99068.htm --- But the fact remains that they all generally agree with 4 Nikayas, except they add some of their own books -VsM, AP, and theravadin commentaries for Theravada, -New "Deeper" Sutras, Kosas and Sastras for Mahayana - Tantras, Dzogchen, Bon and Nagarjunian Madhymaka for Vajjrayna etc. So lets be non-sectarian and study the Universal Teaching of the Buddha - the 4 Nikayas + few books of KN !!!! Lots of Metta, Alex ============================== You, of course, are free to study only these. They are by far my primary interest as well, though I also see value, albeit lesser value, in Theravadin Abhidhamma and commentaries as well, and even in certain Mahayana sutras, Ch'an/Zen-master teachings, and works by Mahayanist teachers such as Nagarjuna and his students and Vasubandhu & his brother, Asanga. Now, when you say "lets be non-sectarian and study the Universal Teaching of the Buddha - the 4 Nikayas + few books of KN !!!!", it is unclear to me who is the "we" you are suggesting do this. The folks on DSG? I suppose that doing so would be "playing it safe"! ;-) But in fact, just because these suttas are common to all schools of Buddhism doesn't guarantee that there is no valid Dhamma outside them. Who knows? Perhaps some obscure Buddhist school in some remote village in Afganistan is the only school that really understands the Dhamma! LOL! But as for what is discussed on DSG, it would be inappropriate to suggest, not that you are doing so, that we on DSG be non-sectarian and publicly study only the common materials you mentioned. It would be inappropriate because this IS a Theravadin list. That makes this list "sectarian", and it makes it entirely proper to prominently feature Theravadin Abhidhamma and commentaries along with the Pali suttas in DSG discussions. There might be a justifiable argument to be made that there should be no mention here of anything *but* the Pali Suttas, and Theravadin Abhidhamma & commentaries, though the list owners are flexible in that respect, but there is no justifiable argument that I can think of for *excluding* any aspect of the Theravadin doctrinal material here. With metta, Howard #81141 From: "Alex" Date: Sun Jan 13, 2008 3:45 pm Subject: Re: Is Nibbana a Dhamma? Is Nibbana really Anatta? truth_aerator Dear Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Dear Alex, > > Thanks for the reply. Let's hear your theory, shall we? > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > About Nibbana? First of all: Existence & Non-existence is a dependently arisen perception, something that ceases (nirodha) in Nibbana. 2nd) In Nibbana there won't be a concern with atta or anatta. 3rd) Nibbana is ultimate happiness, cessation of 6 consciousneses, cessation of greed-anger & delusion. But there is "unestablished consciousness (vijja?) not partaking the allness of the all". 4th) It is interesting how Nibbana shares many similiarities with Atta (except for control maybe): Permanence (timeless) & Ultimate Happiness (not of 6 senses). Ultimately Nibbana is to be realized not talked about! Speculating is one thing, actually experiencing it is another. May you all experience Nibbana in this life! Lots of metta, Alex #81142 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Jan 13, 2008 4:31 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: to James. Thank you all for your kindness. I really do want to underst buddhatrue Hi Tep, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Hi Alex, Nina, James, - > > I have a thought to share with you. > > The easiest test of whether a person is anagami is whether s/he has > no anger. If s/he neither shows anger in any situation, nor shows > even slightest conceit for many years, then it is likely that this > person is near arahantship. But worldlings are not qualified > to "measure" an ariyan (even a Sotapanna); we can only speculate, > though. So, Nina was right. I didn't ask if Nina thought that K. Sujin was an ariyan, I just asked if KS practices what she preaches. Is KS aware of her mind states, aware of each citta, in regards to if it is wholesome or unwholesome. KS teaches that one should be able to do this without any meditation practice whatsoever- so KS should be able to do it. KS should also proclaim very distinctly that she is able to do it and how. If not, if she always avoids any personal revelations about her own knowledge, and only talks in general terms about "panna", then she is a charlatan. A true teacher will speak openly and honestly about his/her insight (or lack thereof) for the benefit of the students. If KS never does this, and only leaves people guessing, then she is hiding something and shouldn't be trusted. This is only common sense. Metta, James #81143 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Jan 13, 2008 5:30 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: This teacher or that teacher VS what the Buddha has actually said lbidd2 Hi Alex, Alex: "Theravada is NOT pali canon itself: It is take of people like Buddhaghosa & Mogaliputta Tissa Thera. It is a set of interpretations of Pali Suttas. It includes commentaries such as VsM, AA and other later works such as AP." Larry: Oh, I see your point. I agree. Theravada is all that and the views of many people, even you! Alex: "Learn the best and most authentic teaching, that is Buddha's teaching outlined in 4 Nikayas plus few books of KN. The water is cleaner at the source." Larry: If you think an interpretation pollutes the teaching, what about your own interpretation? Larry #81144 From: "Alex" Date: Sun Jan 13, 2008 5:59 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: This teacher or that teacher VS what the Buddha has actually said truth_aerator NAMO TASSA BHAGAVATO ARAHATO SAMMASAMBUDDHASSA! Buddham, Dhammam, Sangham saranam gacchami! Hi Larry, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@... wrote: > > Hi Alex, > > Alex: "Theravada is NOT pali canon itself: > It is take of people like Buddhaghosa & Mogaliputta Tissa Thera. It is a > set of interpretations of Pali Suttas. It includes commentaries such as > VsM, AA and other later works such as AP." > > Larry: Oh, I see your point. I agree. Theravada is all that and the > views of many people, even you! >>>> If you mean thay Theravada includes my view, then this is incorrect. I have no authority to influence Theravada. If you meant that I can misinterpret it, then I agree. I am not omniscient and mistakes are possible! > Alex: "Learn the best and most authentic teaching, that is Buddha's > teaching outlined in 4 Nikayas plus few books of KN. The water is > cleaner at the source." > > Larry: If you think an interpretation pollutes the teaching, what about > your own interpretation? > > Larry > The best way to study Authentic Buddha Dhamma as opposed to Teacher- Dhamma is to read the most authentic sources you can find. I do not believe that Compassionate Buddha would make his instructions deliberately complex. Complexity is good for the priesthood to control the masses by making the teaching as complex as possible to make the masses depend on priestly class's explanations. Of course if you can find an Ariya to guide you, then its the best. But ultimately you need to develop your own faculty of discernment. Go as literal as possible in those precise and literal suttas (such as anapanasati, which for Buddha's sake has 16+ steps!). Lots of Metta, In Dhamma, Alex #81145 From: "Alex" Date: Sun Jan 13, 2008 6:47 pm Subject: What does 'arittajhaano' means? truth_aerator Hello all what is the exact meaning of arittajhaano? Thank you all, Lots of Metta, Alex #81146 From: "Alex" Date: Sun Jan 13, 2008 6:52 pm Subject: Oops not arittajhaano but arittajjhaano truth_aerator Oops forgot the double j (but a is one long letter) arittajjhàno --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > > Hello all > > what is the exact meaning of arittajhaano? > > Thank you all, > > Lots of Metta, > > Alex > #81147 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jan 13, 2008 6:53 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: to James. Thank you all for your kindness. I really do want to underst buddhistmedi... Hi James, - I appreciate your reply and the good points you made. A religious teacher has a much tougher job than any other type of teacher. I agree with you that students always evaluate a religious teacher based upon what s/he teaches them. Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Tep, > ... > > I didn't ask if Nina thought that K. Sujin was an ariyan, I just asked > if KS practices what she preaches. #81148 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jan 13, 2008 7:34 pm Subject: Re: Is Nibbana a Dhamma? Is Nibbana really Anatta? buddhistmedi... Dear Scott (and Nina), - I am not familiar enough with Ven. Nanvira's commentary works to judge him. You said he "suffered from some sort of mood-related inflation of the ego" and it sounded like an opinion of someone who knew him very well. Yet, you "don't read him, except when he is referenced". Thank you very much for sharing your Pali knowledge with me, it is a good lesson for a slow learner. I also appreciate the answers you gave for my four questions. >Scott: Again, there are two aspects of D.O. being discussed. Your focus, and that of Ven. Thanissaro apparently, is on the movement within a single existence, while the phrase in question seems understandable in terms of two existences. I favour the past life/current life explanation. It makes sense, since kamma bears fruit in a new existence until Nibbaana, that this also refers to the two existence mode. T: Very clear reply ! The two existences make better sense to me as well. Concerning the quote you took from PTS PED below, the Pali 'ceto' means "heart or mind". Is it a synonym of 'citta' or not? Thanissaro Bhikkhu says ceto-vimutti is 'awareness-release' rather than consciousness-release or mind-release. How would you translate 'ceto- vimutti' yourself? > Scott: I need help with 'pariyosaana'. The PTS PED gives: "Pariya [either short form of pariyaaya, or ger. of pari+ii substantivised (for the regular form paricca) .... Only in phrase ceto -- pariya -- ñÄ?ṇa knowledge encompassing heart or mind (cp. phrase cetasaa ceto paricca) D ii.82 sq. (v. l. Ëšaaya); ..." [end quote] T: Now please read the passage # 522 in Patism Treatise I, On Knowledge, below. 522. There is turning away through perception, turning away by will, turning away of cognizance, turning away of knowledge, turning away by liberation, and turning away in actualities. (i) One who perceives turns away, thus it is turning away through perception. (ii) One who wills turns away, thus it is turning away by the will. (iii) One who cognizes turns away, thus it is turning away of cognizance. (iv) One who uses knowledge turns away, thus it is turning away of knowledge. (v) One who relinquishes turns away, thus it is turning away by liberation. (vi) He turns away in the meaning of suchness, thus it is turning away in the actualities. 522. sa~n~naavivatto, cetovivatto, cittavivatto, ~naanavivatto, vimokkhavivatto, saccavivatto. (i) sa~njananto vivattatiiti sa~n~naa vivatto, (ii) cetayanto vivattatiiti cetovivatto (iii) vijaananto vivattatiiti cittavivatto, (iv) ~naanam karonto vivattatiiti ~naanavivatto (v) vossajjanto vivattatiiti vimokkhavivatto, (vi) tathatthe vivattatiiti saccavivatto. T: Please note that there are 'cetovivatto' and 'cittavivatto' -- two separate things. This indicates that ceto is not equivalent to citta. The translator (Nanamoli) translated 'ceto' as "will". What does the word "will" indicate if it is not citta? The word "heart' does not seem to fit (?). Many thanks in advance. Tep === #81149 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jan 13, 2008 8:01 pm Subject: Re: to James. Was : Thank you all for your kindness. ... Integrity Assessment .. buddhistmedi... Hi Alex (Nina, James), - You asked: Alex: But here is a trick. How do we know that s/he doesn't have anger or aversion inside? People may be good at concealing (even from themselves) true emotions. Even if you could read his/her mind, then even that would not rule out lack of anger (if one comes from a Jhana, then anger may not arise for quite some time, even if the person is Pujjhana). T: Only by living together with that person for a long time, and we must be very wise too, in order to tell if s/he is not yet pure. AN 4.192 explains. AN 4.192: 'It's through living together that a person's virtue may be known, and then only after a long period, not a short period; by one who is attentive, not by one who is inattentive; by one who is discerning, not by one who is not discerning' 'It's through dealing with a person that his purity may be known, and then only after a long period, not a short period; by one who is attentive, not by one who is inattentive; by one who is discerning, not by one who is not discerning' 'It's through adversity that a person's endurance may be known, and then only after a long period, not a short period; by one who is attentive, not by one who is inattentive; by one who is discerning, not by one who is not discerning' .................. Tep: Another fact is that worldlings can only evaluate other worldlings' integrity; they cannot measure someone who has higher integrity. MN 110 explains. MN 110: "Could a person of no integrity know of a person of integrity: 'This is a person of integrity'?" "No, lord." "Good, monks. It's impossible, there's no way, that a person of no integrity would know of a person of integrity: 'This is a person of integrity.'"... "Now, monks, could a person of integrity know of a person of no integrity: 'This is a person of no integrity'?" "Yes, lord." "Good, monks. It is possible that a person of integrity would know of a person of no integrity: 'This is a person of no integrity.' "Could a person of integrity know of a person of integrity: 'This is a person of integrity'?" "Yes, lord." "Good, monks. It is possible that a person of integrity would know of a person of integrity: 'This is a person of integrity.' "A person of integrity is endowed with qualities of integrity; he is a person of integrity in his friendship, in the way he wills, the way he gives advice, the way he speaks, the way he acts, the views he holds, & the way he gives a gift. 'It's through discussion that a person's discernment may be known, and then only after a long period, not a short period; by one who is attentive, not by one who is inattentive; by one who is discerning, not by one who is not discerning' [end quote] ......................... Tep === #81150 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Jan 13, 2008 8:31 pm Subject: Re: Is Nibbana a Dhamma? Is Nibbana really Anatta? scottduncan2 Dear Alex, Thank you for your theory: A: "First of all: Existence & Non-existence is a dependently arisen perception, something that ceases (nirodha) in Nibbana." Scott: Perception of what? A: "2nd) In Nibbana there won't be a concern with atta or anatta." Scott: This would be due to the cessation of Concern I suppose. A: "3rd) Nibbana is ultimate happiness, cessation of 6 consciousneses, cessation of greed-anger & delusion. But there is 'unestablished consciousness (vijja?) not partaking the allness of the all." Scott: This is controversial. If Nibbaana is cessation of 'dependently arisen perception' then what is this 'unestablished consciousness' of which you speak? What meaning can 'ultimate happiness' have, if there is no one to feel it? 'Not partaking in the allness of the all' is a phrase made of smoke-words which hang together on invisible strands of non-existence silk. Anyone can string together such a dream. 4th) "It is interesting how Nibbana shares many similiarities with Atta (except for control maybe): Permanence (timeless) & Ultimate Happiness (not of 6 senses)." Scott: Do you have any solid textual support for this Ultimate Happiness as it relates to Experience? I think that the view you suggest reflects a wish that something of You will be able to Experience Ultimate Happiness while 'in Nibbaana'. A: "Ultimately Nibbana is to be realized not talked about! Speculating is one thing, actually experiencing it is another." Scott: This is a well-worn platitude. Aren't you merely speculating? Sincerely, Scott. #81151 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:40 pm Subject: Re: Lessons in Detachment, Ch 1, no 3. jonoabb Hi Tep Your question to Nina (quite some time ago now): "But how would you convince these "governments and people" to change their lifestyles and earnestly begin to live in accordance with these elements as soon as possible for the sake of innocent people? What would motivate them to change?" is an interesting one. But is it possible to convince people to change? I doubt it! Jon #81152 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:47 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Swimming analogy jonoabb Hi James --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Nina, > ... > Those who are familiar with the traditions of Theravada and > then meet the teachings of KS are immediately thrown for a loop > because they aren't Theravada! It depends what you mean by "the traditions of Theravada". To me, that would be the ancient commentaries, the works of the "elders" from which Theravada takes its name. For some, however, the traditions have come to mean the style of "practice" that has evolved in the past 100-200 years. Jon #81153 From: "kanchaa" Date: Sun Jan 13, 2008 10:43 pm Subject: Some Suggestions! kanchuu2003 Dear All, Greetings from Nepal! Can sometimes running away from problems be solving of problems?? How can Responsiblity be well defined? Sincerely, Nitesh #81154 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jan 14, 2008 12:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kathavatthu XIX.5 sarahprocter... Hi Rahula & all, Interesting (and difficult) questions: --- rahula_80 wrote: > Kathavatthu 19.5 > > Of 'Thusness' > > Controverted Point - That the fundamental characteristic of all > things (sabba-dhamma) are unconditioned. > > From the Commentary - Some, like the Uttarapathakas, hold that there > is an immutable something called thusness (or suchness) in the very > nature of all things, material or otherwise [taken as a whole]. And > because this 'thusness' is not included in the [particular] > conditioned matter, etc., itself, therefore it is unconditiones. <...> > I was told the Uttarapathakas introduce the concept of > unconditioned, immutable 'thusness' (tathata). And the passage > refutes such view. > > So 'thusness' (tathata), according to Theravidins is conditioned? .... S: There is lots of detail is given on the meaning of 'Tathaagata' in the translation of the commentary to the Cariya Pitaka which B.Bodhi adds at the end of 'The All-Embracing Net of Views' (BPS). From this detail we can learn moe about the qualities of the Buddha and the nature of realities (tathadhamme). One of the reasons for being called Tathaagata is: "because he has come to the real characteristic (of dhammas)" [tathalakkha.na"m]. This refers to the knowledge of all realities, all dhammas, i.e the 5 khandhas and nibbana. Another reason given is "because he has awakened to real dhammas in accordance with actuality"[tathadhamme yaathaavato abhisambuddho]. He has realised the 4 Noble Truths and D.O. It also says it is "because he is a seer of the real" [tathadassitaaya]. This is pointing to the scope and range of his knowledge of realities. He is also said to be "the speaker of the real" [tathavaaditaaya]. This of course refers to the truth of all he teaches. Much more detail and further explanations are given, but in each case 'tatha' refers to realities or 'the real'. It's made very clear that the real characteristics of dhammas which he has discovered refers to the elements, i.e namas and rupas, not to concepts of any kind. "All these characteristics (S: of the elements, khandhas, factulties, lokuttara dhammas, D.O. etc) are real, not unreal. Through the movement of his faculty of knowledge he has come to the real characteristics (of all dhammas)." Here's another quote I like: "The analytical derivation of the word "Tathaagata" should be understood thus: he goes to (gacchati) - i.e., he sees and knows - these dhammas beginning with the visible form object, in the very way (tathaa) they exist win their specific nature and mode." The word "Tathaagata" is also said to contain "the entire practice of the Dhamma as well as all the qualities of a Buddha." If we understand the realities being pointed to, starting with visible object, the entire practice will be apparent. There is no other reality or "thusness" (as the Uttarapathakas and many others today held/hold)of some underlying 'wholeness' of khandhas together. There are just distinct conditioned elements or khandhas arising and falling away and the unconditioned element, nibbana. .... >The word "Tathagata" designates all the qualities of the Buddha. > Then how do you explained Tathagata? Isn't Nibbana, therefore > Tathagata, unconditioned? ... S: See above for Tathagata. No, nibbana is not 'Tathagata'. Nibbana is the unconditioned dhamma which the Tathagata realized. Here's another quote from the same source above: "Furthermore, he is the Tathaagata because he has 'gone through reality' (tathaaya gata) and because he has 'really gone' (tatha"m gata). Here 'gone' (gata) has the meanings of undergone (avagata), gone beyond (atta), attained (patta), and practised (pa.tipanna). Thus he is the Tathaagata because he has gone through - i.e. undergone -reality by fully understanding the entire world [i.e Noble Truth of suffering] through the scrutinization (of its essential characteristics, as impermanent, suffering, and not-self). He is the Tathaagata because he has gone through - i.e. gone beyond - reality by fully understanding the world through the abandonment of its origin.......realizing the cessation of the world.....practised - the way leading to the cessation of the world...." ... > And the last part of this passage seems to suggest that > Uttarapathakas won the "debate", as they made the final statement: > > [4] U. - But if I am wrong, is the 'thusness' of all things the five > aggregates [taken together]? > Th - Yes. > U. - Then that 'thusness' of all things is unconditioned. ... S: I don't think that having the last word is any indication of having won the debate!!! Just like here on DSG! The previous debates in the chapter also end with those holding wrong views having the last word, I believe. The 'thusness' or reality pertains to the characteristics of all khandhas (each reality, starting with visible object), not 'taken together'. So I'm not sure if the bracketed "[taken together]" here is correct. A Paali expert would need to help us out here. Remember, "he sees and knows - these dhammas beginning with the visible form object, in the very way (tathaa) they exist win their specific nature and mode". ... > Is my understanding correct to say that for the Theravidins, > the 'thusness' of all things = the five aggregates? ... S: All dhammas, all realities including nibbana as I understand. Each khandha, each reality has to be understood in the very way (tathaa) it appears with its particular characteristic. So visible object has to be understood as distinct from seeing consciousness. Sound has to be understood as distinct from hearing. Thanks for the interesting point. I'll look forward to any further clarifications on the Paali too. Any reason for raising this debate or following it? Metta, Sarah ====== #81155 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 14, 2008 12:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: to James. Was : Thank you all for your kindness. ... Integrity Assessment .. nilovg Hi Tep, the two suttas you quote are very good, absolutely right. I thought myself of the first one: only after a long time. Therefore: it is wrong to judge another person, it is lighthearted and also it may be very heavy kamma leading to unhappy results. It is necessary to learn more about one's own cittas when speaking or writing: is there anger or not? Is there irritation? Is there conceit? It is difficult to know cittas form moment to moment, but gradually we can learn. I also think of what Sarah said: we should mind our own cittas, not mind so much what others do or say. As you very fittingly quote another sutta: "And how is a monk skilled in reading his own mind? [He should examine his own mind as follws:] 'Do I usually remain covetous or not? With thoughts of ill will or not?... Thanks to the Buddha we can learn to become more and more skilled. Nina. Op 14-jan-2008, om 5:01 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > 'It's through discussion that a person's discernment may be known, > and then only after a long period, not a short period; by one who is > attentive, not by one who is inattentive; by one who is discerning, > not by one who is not discerning' [end quote] #81156 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 14, 2008 12:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Suggestions! nilovg Dear Nitesh, how nice to see you again. Op 14-jan-2008, om 7:43 heeft kanchaa het volgende geschreven: > Greetings from Nepal! > > Can sometimes running away from problems be solving of problems?? > > How can Responsiblity be well defined? ------- N: Responsibility: I like a practical solution. Knowing one's own cittas, knowing how many defilements one has. Then one will be more careful and more patient in dealing with other people. Running away from problems. One cannot run away from one's own citta. When there is a problem, the cause is not with someone else, but with oneself. One's akusala cittas. As Sarah reminds us we always think of situations and other people but these are not the real cause of problems. Nina. #81157 From: "pannabahulo" Date: Mon Jan 14, 2008 2:22 am Subject: Reply to James pannabahulo Dear James, Thank you very much for your kindness in replying to my e-mails. I am sorry for my delay in this, but I didn't know how best to reply without giving it some thought. I appreciate your intention to help me very much.But I don't know what to say about your describing Ajan Sujin as a 'Charlatan'. I was, and am,incredibly impressed by Ajan Sujin.In the Lord Buddha's time many people were impressed by the bearing and demeanour of the early disciples.Ajan Sujin is a truly exceptional person; she radiates metta, clarity of mind, calmness and humility.She is eighty years of age and works tirelessly for the Dhamma so that she can help others. How could she possibly be like this - and work like that - if she was a charlatan? I recommended her to a meditator friend who went to meet her in Chiang Mai last week. He came away feeling exactly the same. There is no doubt in my mind that the way Ajan Sujin understands the Lord Buddha's teachings have worked for her.I also know of monks and lay meditation teachers for whom their particular 'style' of practice have obviously led to attainments. I agree with you that I am in some kind of extreme personal conflict about how to proceed from here on. Certain meditation methods have been very beneficial to me and that is why I am wearing the robes of a buddhist monk. But I will continue to do my best to follow the advice that Ajan Sujin gives - and that of her disciples - while I continue to use, as best I can,something from all that I have learnt in the last 20+ years. The Buddha did say that we must work out our own salvations for ourselves. So there is clearly no 'one right way' that suits everybody. But the replies I am receiving from people like Nina,Sarah,Sukin, Howard et al are inspiring me greatly.It is just my own inability to absorb so much information that is one big barrier. But the most difficult thing to face - as Sukin has so accurately pointed out - is to realise that one may have been heading in the wrong direction and must needs restart the journey. I hope this helps to express what I'm getting at and why it took me a while to respond to your post. Thank you very much again James, With metta and every blessing, Pannabahulo #81158 From: "pannabahulo" Date: Mon Jan 14, 2008 2:34 am Subject: Thank you Sukin and Sarah pannabahulo Dear Dhamma friends, Thank you both for your recent postings to me.I will need some time to study what you say so that I can get further ahead. Thank you both for your kindness and effort - may I prove worthy of that. With metta and every blessing, Pannabahulo #81159 From: "pannabahulo" Date: Mon Jan 14, 2008 2:39 am Subject: Citta - 'darker than dark' pannabahulo Dear Dhamma friends, I mentioned the following to Nina yesterday, but think I should share it with everyone. When my friend was in discussion with Ajan Sujin last week she said to him that "Citta is darker than dark." Does anyone know what she could possibly have meant by that? With metta to all, Pannabahulo #81160 From: "pannabahulo" Date: Mon Jan 14, 2008 4:20 am Subject: Thank you Phil pannabahulo Dear Phil, Thank you very much for your very warm letter. I appreciate your words a great deal. May you always be well, happy and at peace. With metta and every blessing, Pannabahulo #81162 From: "rahula_80" Date: Mon Jan 14, 2008 4:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kathavatthu XIX.5 rahula_80 Hi, Sorry. I accidentally hit enter before finishing. > > [4] U. - But if I am wrong, is the 'thusness' of all things the five > > aggregates [taken together]? > > Th - Yes. > > U. - Then that 'thusness' of all things is unconditioned. > The 'thusness' or reality pertains to the characteristics of all khandhas > (each reality, starting with visible object), not 'taken together'. So I'm > not sure if the bracketed "[taken together]" here is correct. Well, shoudn't the Theravadin answer "No", instead of "Yes", then? Regards Rahula #81163 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jan 14, 2008 4:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Citta - 'darker than dark' sarahprocter... Dear Ven Pannabahulo, --- pannabahulo wrote: > When my friend was in discussion with Ajan Sujin last week she said to > him that "Citta is darker than dark." > Does anyone know what she could possibly have meant by that? .... S: Your friend remembers well. Very good question and a very deep point! We think of there being light all the time, but there's no light at all in any citta. The only time light appears is when visible object is seen. So there's an instant of light appearing and then darker than dark the rest of the time. So it's an illusion to think that either we see all the time or that there is light all the time. At a moment of thinking, no light, but we go on dreaming about the experiences through the sense-doors. At a moment of hearing, no light. At a moment of tasting, no light. This is so for all other experiences, apart from when visible object appears. Also, there's no light at all in the seeing consciousness itself. So when the characteristic of seeing appears as object, no light again. It helps to appreciate how little we understand about the dhammas appearing now and how very attached we are to visible object, I think. It also helps us to understand more about the nature and characteristics of namas which have no light in them at all as we might imagine. Is there seeing now? It's just the dhamma which experiences visible object - that's all. Darker than dark! **** I just remembered that Scott transcribed a passage from a recording before on this topic. Here are a couple of extracts from his message: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/69763 Kh. Sujin (2001-10-23-e): <...> "And we can see that the rebirth consciousness and the bhavanga - the citta which follows the birth consciousness - must be very dark. As dark as when there is no seeing process; the same because hardness can be experienced even when there is no seeing, so how dark it is. So the pa~n~na can understand the quality or the characteristic of citta. It doesn't have any shape, no form, nothing else in it at all only the faculty of experiencing an object. It is the indriya, the leader, or the chief of experience. Not like cetasika which feels or remembers. So when we take everything out of this world, what is left? Citta. It knows. "...When ruupa does not appear, citta is there, and at that moment the characteristic is seen by pa~n~na which knows the characteristic of citta as citta, not as cetasika. So one lives in darkness, very, very dark, and only one spot that can make the world bright or light. Just only that. Eye-base only. The other ruupaa cannot condition the appearing of visible object or light. So, in reality, one lives in darkness with the idea or thinking about what is experienced through the other door-ways. And what is darker? Aviija. Doesn't know anything at all... (2001-10-23-f <...> "...because its so dark - nothing - so its very frightening when its not the developed pa~n~na. So one knows one's self whether one has the developed level of pa~n~na or not yet to be alone, and its not 'I', but only the element which can experience an object. No friends, no family, no one...So when there is the idea of self, one can try every way to gain Nibbaana because one doesn't know that even the sa.nkhaara dhammaa, the conditioned reality - the reality that is conditioned and falls away - is not Nibbaana. But pa~n~na has to know this before attaining the Four Noble Truths. Even the first Truth. Are we ready?" ***** Metta, Sarah p.s Thx for your other brief note. No need to respond quickly or *at all* to anything I write. I think it's a sensible approach to consider and take your time. I'm appreciating your contributions very much and will be glad if David and the other bhikkhu join us as well. ====== #81164 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Mon Jan 14, 2008 4:47 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (73) nichiconn Dear Friends, Part 12 16. Mahaanipaato 1. Sumedhaatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa 490. "Asisuunuupamaa kaamaa, kaamaa sappasiropamaa; ukkopamaa anudahanti, a.t.thika"nkalasannibhaa. 491. "Aniccaa adhuvaa kaamaa, bahudukkhaa mahaavisaa; ayogu.lova santatto, aghamuulaa dukhapphalaa. 492. "Rukkhaphaluupamaa kaamaa, ma.msapesuupamaa dukhaa; supinopamaa va~ncaniyaa, kaamaa yaacitakuupamaa. 493. "Sattisuuluupamaa kaamaa, rogo ga.n.do agha.m nigha.m; a"ngaarakaasusadisaa, aghamuula.m bhaya.m vadho. 494. "Eva.m bahudukkhaa kaamaa, akkhaataa antaraayikaa; gacchatha na me bhavagate, vissaaso atthi attano. 488. "Sensual pleasures are like a butcher's knife and chopping block. Sensual pleasures are like a snake's head. They burn like a firebrand. They are like a bony skeleton. 489. "Sensual pleasures are impermanent, unstable. They have much pain. They are great poisons. [They are] like a heated ball of iron, the root of evil, having pain as the fruit. 490. "Sensual pleasures are like the fruits of a tree, like a lump of flesh, painful. [They are] like a dream, delusive. Sensual pleasures are like borrowed goods. 491. "Sensual pleasures are like swords and stakes, a disease, a tumour, evil destruction, like a pit of coals, the root of evil, fear, slaughter. 492. "In this way, sensual pleasures have been said to have much pain, to be hindrances. Go! I myself have no confidence in existence. RD: 'Like the sharp blades of swords are sense-desires.' 'Like the poised heads of snakes prepared to dart.' 'Like blazing torches,' and 'like bare gnawn bones.' *427 (488) Transient, unstable are desires of sense, Pregnant with Ill and full of venom dire, Searing as heated iron globe to touch. Baneful the root of them, baleful the fruit. (489) As 'fruit' *428 that brings the climber to a fall, Are sense-desires; evil as 'lumps of flesh' That greedy birds one from the other snatch; As cheating 'dreams'; as 'borrowed goods' reclaimed. (490) 'As spears and jav'lins are desires of sense,' 'A pestilence, a boil, and bane and bale. A furnace of live coals,' the root of bane, Murderous and the source of harrowing dread. (491) So hath the direfulness of sense-desires, Those barriers to salvation, been declared. Go, leave me, for I do not trust myself, While in this world I yet have part and lot. (492) *427 These similes are all quoted from Majjhima Nikaaya, i. 130, 364 ff. Cf. Sa.my. Nik., i. 128; Ang. Nik., iii. 97. See below. *428 The text in these four lines gives merely the metaphor As this would call up no associated similes in us, I expand the terms after the similes in Majjhima Nikaaya, 54th Sutta, whence they are borrowed. ..to be continued, connie #81165 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jan 14, 2008 4:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kathavatthu XIX.5 sarahprocter... Hi Rahula (Scott, Connie, Ven D.) --- rahula_80 wrote: > > >R: [4] U. - But if I am wrong, is the 'thusness' of all things the > five > > > aggregates [taken together]? > > > Th - Yes. > > > U. - Then that 'thusness' of all things is unconditioned. ... > > >S: The 'thusness' or reality pertains to the characteristics of all > khandhas > > (each reality, starting with visible object), not 'taken together'. > So I'm > > not sure if the bracketed "[taken together]" here is correct. > > Well, shoudn't the Theravadin answer "No", instead of "Yes", then? ... S: I think we really need one of our friends to assist with the Pali here. As I understood it, the Theravadin was agreeing that each khanhdha, each dhamma was a reality, 'thusness'. U. came to his own conclusion - a common one that reality is the unconditioned. I agree the text/translation of these last few lines is not very clear. I'll look forward to further clarifications as well. Thanks for your message and reply. Metta, Sarah Please add a name or an 'All' after your salutation of "hi",so we know whom you are addressing!! .......... #81166 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jan 14, 2008 1:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is Nibbana a Dhamma? Is Nibbana really Anatta? upasaka_howard Hi, Scott (and Alex) - As a preamble, I'd like to note that I think there is a distinction to be made between Bodhi (the realization of nibbana) and nibbana itself. Bodhi arises, and with it the uprooting of all defilements. Nibbana doesn't arise, for whatever arises ceases. Nibbana is real, in the most solid sense of 'real'. I think of nibbana as the unconditioned & condition-transcendant, ungraspable, seamless, open freedoms that is the actual nature of reality, whether realized or not. But that is just my way of thinking. In a message dated 1/13/2008 11:32:22 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, scduncan@... writes: Dear Alex, Thank you for your theory: A: "First of all: Existence & Non-existence is a dependently arisen perception, something that ceases (nirodha) in Nibbana." Scott: Perception of what? A: "2nd) In Nibbana there won't be a concern with atta or anatta." ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: There is no "in" nibbana. Maybe it would be better to say "upon full awakening"? And concern aside, nibbana is also anatta. (Note: Though it is the 3rd of the tilakkhana, anattata isn't a condition, but the absence of one.) ---------------------------------------------------- Scott: This would be due to the cessation of Concern I suppose. A: "3rd) Nibbana is ultimate happiness, cessation of 6 consciousneses, cessation of greed-anger & delusion. But there is 'unestablished consciousness (vijja?) not partaking the allness of the all." Scott: This is controversial. If Nibbaana is cessation of 'dependently arisen perception' then what is this 'unestablished consciousness' of which you speak? What meaning can 'ultimate happiness' have, if there is no one to feel it? 'Not partaking in the allness of the all' is a phrase made of smoke-words which hang together on invisible strands of non-existence silk. Anyone can string together such a dream. ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: One epithet of nibbana IS "ultimate happiness". (Though I take this to actually refer to the realization of nibbana rather than to nibbana itself. Just as I take "Nibbana is the end of dukkha" to really mean that it's realization results, then and there, in the end of dukkha.) As for your assertion < 'Not partaking in the allness of the all' is a phrase made of smoke-words which hang together on invisible strands of non-existence silk. Anyone can string together such a dream.>, the Buddha did string together such words, in MN 49, for example. In that sutta, in speaking to a brahma, the Buddha said "Having directly known the all as the all, and having directly known the extent of what has not been experienced through the allness of the all, wasn't the all, I wasn't in the all, I wasn't coming forth from the all, I wasn't 'The all is mine.' I didn't affirm the all. Thus I am not your mere equal in terms of direct knowing, so how could I be inferior? I am actually superior to you." Also reported in that sutta is the Buddha saying "Consciousness without surface, endless, radiant all around, has not been experienced through the earthness of earth ... the liquidity of liquid ... the fieriness of fire ... the windiness of wind ... the allness of the all." So, Scott, this phrase can't quite be properly referred to as anyone's pipe dream. ---------------------------------------------------- 4th) "It is interesting how Nibbana shares many similiarities with Atta (except for control maybe): Permanence (timeless) & Ultimate Happiness (not of 6 senses)." Scott: Do you have any solid textual support for this Ultimate Happiness as it relates to Experience? I think that the view you suggest reflects a wish that something of You will be able to Experience Ultimate Happiness while 'in Nibbaana'. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: In Dhammapada 203, for example, nibbana is referred to as supreme happiness ------------------------------------------------ A: "Ultimately Nibbana is to be realized not talked about! Speculating is one thing, actually experiencing it is another." Scott: This is a well-worn platitude. Aren't you merely speculating? Sincerely, Scott. ============================ With metta, Howard #81167 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 14, 2008 6:11 am Subject: Lessons in Detachment, Ch 4, no 1. nilovg Dear friends, Chapter 4. The Brahma Vihåras. Lodewijk read during our long bus trips the sutta of the “Divine Messengers” (Gradual Sayings, Book of the Threes, Ch IV, § 35, translation by Ven. Nyanaponika, Wheel 155-158, B.P.S. Kandy). The Buddha spoke to the monks about three divine messengers: old age, sickness and death. A person who has immoral conduct in deeds, words and thoughts is reborn in hell. The warders take him and bring him before Yama the Lord (of Death). We read that they said: “This man, O majesty, had no respect for father and mother, nor for recluses and priests, nor did he honour the elders of the family. May your majesty inflict due punishment on him.” Then, monks, King Yama questions that man, examines and addresses him concerning the first divine messemger: “Did you not see, my good man, the first messenger appearing among men?” And he replies:”No, Lord, I did not see him.” Then King Yama says to him: ”But, my good man, did you not see among people a woman or a man, aged eighty, ninety or a hundred years, frail, bent like a roof gable, crooked, leaning on a stick, shakily going along, ailing, his youth and vigour gone, with broken teeth, with grey and scanty hair or none, wrinkled, with blotched limbs?” And the man replies, “I have seen it, Lord.” Then King Yama says to him: “My good man, did it never occur to you who are intelligent and old enough, ‘I too am subject to old age and cannot escape it. Let me now do noble deeds by body, speech and mind’?” “No Lord. I could not do it, I was negligent.” We then read that King Yama said that he would experience the fruit of his evil action. We read that King Yama then questioned him about the second divine messenger: “Did you not see, my good man, the second divine messenger appearing among men?” “No, Lord, I did not see him.” “But, my good man, have you not seen among people a woman or a man who was sick and in pain, seriously ill, lying in his own filth, who had to be lifted up by some, and put to bed by others?” “Yes, Lord, this I have seen.” “Then, my good man, did it never occur to you who are intelligent and old enough, ‘I too am subject to sickness and cannot escape it. Let me now do noble deeds by body, speech and mind”?” “No, Lord, I could not do it. I was negligent.” We read that King Yama said that he would experience the fruit of his evil action. King Yama then questioned him about the third divine messenger: “But my good man, have you not seen among people a woman or a man who had died one day ago or two, or three days ago, the corpse being swollen, discoloured and festering?” “Yes, Lord, this I have seen.” “Then, my good man, did it never occur to you who are intelligent and old enough, ‘I too am subject to death and cannot escape it. Let me now do noble deeds by body, speech and mind”?” “No, Lord, I could not do it. I was negligent.” We then read that he had to suffer as the result of his evil deeds grievous torments in hell. This sutta exhorts us not to be negligent in kusala, but to perform good deeds through body, speech and mind whenever there is an opportunity. ****** Nina. #81168 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Jan 14, 2008 6:11 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Swimming analogy buddhatrue Hi Jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > For some, however, the traditions have come to mean the style of > "practice" that has evolved in the past 100-200 years. Could you please be more specific about what you mean here? Are you saying that what people call "Theravada" isn't the true theravada and that it used to be the true version? What are the differences? What historical basis for your conclusion? Metta, James #81169 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Jan 14, 2008 6:16 am Subject: Re: Lessons in Detachment, Ch 1, no 3. buddhistmedi... Hi Jon, - Thank you for sharing your thought with me. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Tep > > Your question to Nina (quite some time ago now): > "But how would you convince these "governments and people" > to change their lifestyles and earnestly begin to live > in accordance with these elements as soon as possible > for the sake of innocent people? What would motivate > them to change?" > is an interesting one. But is it possible to convince people to > change? I doubt it! > > Jon > T: Religious leaders must believe in the possibility of change, otherwise they would not try to teach people. Responsible parents and school teachers must also believe in the same possibility, otherwise nobody will commit to teaching kids and the children of the world would be running wild in the street, having fun and not staying in school! And what will the whole world become? Tep === #81170 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jan 14, 2008 1:23 am Subject: TYPO Re: [dsg] Re: Is Nibbana a Dhamma? Is Nibbana really Anatta? upasaka_howard Hi again - In a message dated 1/14/2008 9:08:38 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@... writes: I think of nibbana as the unconditioned & condition-transcendant, ungraspable, seamless, open freedoms that is the actual nature of reality, whether realized or not. But that is just my way of thinking. ========================= That should be "freedom" (singular). Sorry. With metta, Howard #81171 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Jan 14, 2008 6:27 am Subject: Re: Reply to James buddhatrue Hi Ven. P, Thank you for the reply. I was thinking that maybe I scared you off. :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "pannabahulo" wrote: > > Dear James, > > Thank you very much for your kindness in replying to my e-mails. > I am sorry for my delay in this, but I didn't know how best to reply > without giving it some thought. James: Yeah, I can appreciate that. :-) > I appreciate your intention to help me very much.But I don't know > what to say about your describing Ajan Sujin as a 'Charlatan'. > I was, and am,incredibly impressed by Ajan Sujin.In the Lord Buddha's > time many people were impressed by the bearing and demeanour of the > early disciples.Ajan Sujin is a truly exceptional person; she > radiates metta, clarity of mind, calmness and humility.She is eighty > years of age and works tirelessly for the Dhamma so that she can help > others. How could she possibly be like this - and work like that - if > she was a charlatan? James: All charlatans are very charismatic; that is how they get followers. I have listened to her on tape and I am not impressed at all by her demeanor- because she is fake. Rather than telling her followers that they will be saved by the power of Jesus, she tells them that they will be saved by the power of panna. Same difference and same approach. > I recommended her to a meditator friend who went to meet her in > Chiang Mai last week. He came away feeling exactly the same. James: Yes, she makes people feel very good. She makes people feel like they can achieve anything just by listening to her. It's bunk! > There is no doubt in my mind that the way Ajan Sujin understands the > Lord Buddha's teachings have worked for her.I also know of monks and > lay meditation teachers for whom their particular 'style' of practice > have obviously led to attainments. > I agree with you that I am in some kind of extreme personal conflict > about how to proceed from here on. Certain meditation methods have > been very beneficial to me and that is why I am wearing the robes of > a buddhist monk. But I will continue to do my best to follow the > advice that Ajan Sujin gives - and that of her disciples - while I > continue to use, as best I can,something from all that I have learnt > in the last 20+ years. James: What advice have they given you? What did they tell you to do? I am very curious. > The Buddha did say that we must work out our own salvations for > ourselves. James: EXACTLY! However, KS makes people depend on her. So there is clearly no 'one right way' that suits > everybody. > But the replies I am receiving from people like Nina,Sarah,Sukin, > Howard et al are inspiring me greatly. James: That's good. (I'm sure Howard will be happy to be included in that particula list ;-)) It is just my own inability to > absorb so much information that is one big barrier. > But the most difficult thing to face - as Sukin has so accurately > pointed out - is to realise that one may have been heading in the > wrong direction and must needs restart the journey. James: The journey is not always a straight path and kamma has a purpose in everything. > I hope this helps to express what I'm getting at and why it took me a > while to respond to your post. > Thank you very much again James, James: You're welcome. Hope this post doesn't freak you out too much. :-) > With metta and every blessing, > Pannabahulo > Metta, James #81172 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jan 14, 2008 1:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Reply to James upasaka_howard Hi, James (and Ven. Pannabahulo) - In a message dated 1/14/2008 9:31:45 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@... writes: So there is clearly no 'one right way' that suits > everybody. > But the replies I am receiving from people like Nina,Sarah,Sukin, > Howard et al are inspiring me greatly. James: That's good. (I'm sure Howard will be happy to be included in that particula list ;-)) ============================= LOLOL! I'm the team mascot! ;-)) With metta, Howard #81173 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Jan 14, 2008 6:39 am Subject: [dsg] Re: to James. Was : Thank you all for your kindness. Integrity Assessment .. buddhistmedi... Hi Nina, - Like you, I also find plenty of great advices in the suttas and Patisambhidamagga. >Nina: > the two suttas you quote are very good, absolutely right. I thought > myself of the first one: only after a long time. Therefore: it is > wrong to judge another person, it is lighthearted and also it may be very heavy kamma leading to unhappy results. T: I absolutely agree with the very important point you have made. By constantly finding faults with other persons, one misses the opportunity to look inward and improve oneself. Not only that, but also "it may be very heavy kamma leading to unhappy results". > N: It is necessary to learn more about one's own cittas when speaking or writing: is there anger or not? Is there irritation? Is there conceit? It is difficult to know cittas form moment to moment, but gradually we can learn. > N: I also think of what Sarah said: we should mind our own cittas, not mind so much what others do or say. > T: Absolutely. Gradually we can learn to improve ourselves, once we have learned more about our own cittas. ... > Thanks to the Buddha we can learn to become more and more skilled. > Nina. T: I cannot agree more! Tep === #81174 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 14, 2008 6:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Citta is dark. nilovg Venerable Pannabahulo, Tomorrow we will be posting some books, but the post may take rather long. If you have questions from my A.D.L. it is perhaps an idea to only indicate the alinea, to save typing. It is difficult when you do not have the text on line and time consuming to type questions. Op 13-jan-2008, om 13:22 heeft pannabahulo het volgende geschreven: > Nina, one thing that Ajan Sujin said to David is that "Citta is > darker than dark" - Have you any idea what she meant by that? It's > got us all wondering. -------- N : Meanwhile Sarah answered and added a transcript. I am glad, since I did not tape what Ajahn said about this and I did not know what to answer. It is amazing that the whole day when our eyes are open the world is light. It seems that we are seeing all the time, but in reality there are countless cittas that do not see. The moment we pay attention to shape and form and know what things are there is thinking, not seeing. But is just is as if we are still seeing. This seems so because cittas arise and fall away so fast. Only visible object or colour can be seen, not seeing itself, it is dark. This helps to clarify that the nature of seeing, nama, is different from visible object that is rupa. -------- We may doubt: how do we know that there is citta? Is it possible to know it? This is an opportunity to quote part of Ch 3 of my book ADL: The Buddha explained that citta (consciousness) is a reality. We may doubt whether cittas are real. How can we prove that there are cittas? Could it be that there are only physical phenomena and not mental phenomena? There are many things in our life we take for granted such as our homes, meals, clothes, or the tools we use every day. These things do not appear by themselves. They are brought about by a thinking mind, by citta. Citta is a mental phenomenon; it knows or experiences something. Citta is not like a physical phenomenon which does not experience anything. We listen to music which was written by a composer. It was citta which had the idea for the music; it was citta which made the composer's hand move in order to write down the notes. His hand could not have moved without citta. Citta can achieve many different effects. We read in the Atthasåliní (the commentary to the Dhammasangani, the first book of the Abhidhamma) Book I, Part II, Analysis of Terms, 64: How is consciousness (i.e. mind) capable of producing a variety or diversity of effects in action? There is no art in the world more variegated than the art of painting. In painting, the painter's masterpiece is more artistic than the rest of his pictures. An artistic design occurs to the painters of masterpieces that such and such pictures should be drawn in such and such a way. Through this artistic design there arise operations of the mind (or artistic operations) accomplishing such things as sketching the outline, putting on the paint, touching up, and embellishing... Thus all classes of arts in the world, specific or generic, are achieved by the mind. And owing to its capacity thus to produce a variety or diversity of effects in action, the mind, which achieves all these arts, is in itself artistic like the arts themselves. Nay, it is even more artistic than the art itself, because the latter cannot execute every design perfectly. For that reason the Blessed One has said, ``Monks, have you seen a masterpiece of painting?'' ``Yes, Lord.'' ``Monks, that masterpiece of art is designed by the mind. Indeed, monks, the mind is even more artistic than that masterpiece.'' (Kindred Sayings, III, 151) We then read about the many different things which are accomplished by citta: good deeds, such as deeds of generosity, and bad deeds, such as deeds of cruelty and deceit, are accomplished by citta and these deeds produce different results. There is not just one type of citta, but many different types of cittas. ----------- This passage may help to clarify that citta is not abstract, that it is a reality of our life. It can be verified. There is no need to respond, otherwise you would have too much work answering all those mails. With respect, Nina. #81175 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jan 14, 2008 1:51 am Subject: A Sutta Presenting the "No Person/No Actor/ No Agent" Perspective of the Dhamma upasaka_howard Hi, all - I think the following sutta is one of the clearest expositions of impersonality in the Sutta Pitaka. With metta, Howard ______________________________________________________ SN 12.12 Phagguna Sutta To Phagguna Translated from the Pali by Nyanaponika Thera Alternate translation: _Nyanaponika_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.012.nypo.html) _Thanissaro_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.012.than.html) PTS: S ii 13 CDB i 541 ____________________________________ Source: From _The Four Nutriments of Life_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nyanaponika/wheel105.html) , by Nyanaponika Thera (Kandy: Buddhist Publication Society, 1981). Copyright © 1999 Buddhist Publication Society. Used with permission. ____________________________________ Copyright © 1981 Buddhist Publication Society. Access to Insight edition © 2006 For free distribution. This work may be republished, reformatted, reprinted, and redistributed in any medium. It is the author's wish, however, that any such republication and redistribution be made available to the public on a free and unrestricted basis and that translations and other derivative works be clearly marked as such. ____________________________________ "There are, O monks, four nutriments for the sustenance of beings born, and for the support of beings seeking birth. What are the four? Edible food, coarse and fine; secondly, sense-impression; thirdly, volitional thought; fourthly, consciousness." After these words, the venerable Moliya-Phagguna addressed the Exalted One as follows: "Who, O Lord, consumes_1_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.012.nypo.html#n-1) the nutriment consciousness?" "The question is not correct," said the Exalted One. "I do not say that 'he consumes.'_2_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.012.nypo.html#n-2) If I had said so, then the question 'Who consumes?' would be appropriate. But since I did not speak thus, the correct way to ask the question will be: 'For what is the nutriment consciousness (the condition)?'_3_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.012.nypo.html#n-3) And to that the correct reply is: 'The nutriment consciousness_4_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.012.nypo.html#n-4) is a condition for the future arising of a renewed existence;_5_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.012.nypo.html#n-5) when that has come into being, there is (also) the sixfold sense-base; and conditioned by the sixfold sense-base is sense-impression.'"_6_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.012.nypo.html#n-6) "Who, O Lord, has a sense-impression?" "The question is not correct," said the Exalted One. "I do not say that 'he has a sense-impression.' Had I said so, then the question 'Who has a sense-impression?' would be appropriate. But since I did not speak thus, the correct way to ask the question will be 'What is the condition of sense-impression?' And to that the correct reply is: 'The sixfold sense-base is a condition of sense-impression, and sense-impression is the condition of feeling.'" "Who, O Lord, feels?" "The question is not correct," said the Exalted One. "I do not say that 'he feels.' Had I said so, then the question 'Who feels?' would be appropriate. But since I did not speak thus, the correct way to ask the question will be 'What is the condition of feeling?' And to that the correct reply is: 'sense-impression is the condition of feeling; and feeling is the condition of craving.'" "Who, O Lord, craves?" "The question is not correct," said the Exalted One. "I do not say that 'he craves.' Had I said so, then the question 'Who craves?' would be appropriate. But since I did not speak thus, the correct way to ask the question will be 'What is the condition of craving?' And to that the correct reply is: 'Feeling is the condition of craving, and craving is the condition of clinging.'" "Who, O Lord, clings?" "The question is not correct," said the Exalted One, "I do not say that 'he clings.' Had I said so, then the question 'Who clings?' would be appropriate. But since I did not speak thus, the correct way to ask the question will be 'What is the condition of clinging?' And to that the correct reply is: 'Craving is the condition of clinging; and clinging is the condition of the process of becoming.' Such is the origin of this entire mass of suffering._7_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.012.nypo.html#n-7) "Through the complete fading away and cessation of even these six bases of sense-impression, sense-impression ceases;_8_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.012.nypo.html#n-8) through the cessation of sense-impression, feeling ceases; through the cessation of feeling, craving ceases; through the cessation of craving, clinging ceases; through the cessation of clinging, the process of becoming ceases; through the cessation of the process of becoming, birth ceases; through the cessation of birth, old age, death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of suffering." ____________________________________ Notes _1_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.012.nypo.html#t-1) . Consumes or eats (aaharati) — The commentators say that this monk believed that he understood the three other kinds of nutriment but concerning consciousness he had conceived the notion that there was a "being" (satta) that takes consciousness onto himself as nutriment. _2_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.012.nypo.html#t-2) . Comy: "I do not say that there is any being or person that consumes (or eats)." _3_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.012.nypo.html#t-3) . Comy: "That means: 'For what (impersonal) state (or thing; katamassa dhammassa) is the nutriment consciousness a condition (paccaya)?'" The term dhamma, in the sense of an impersonal factor of existence, is here contrasted with the questioner's assumption of a being or person performing the respective function. By re-formulating the question, the Buddha wanted to point out that there is no reason for assuming that the nutriment consciousness "feeds" or conditions any separate person hovering behind it; but that consciousness constitutes just one link in a chain of processes indicated by the Buddha in the following. _4_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.012.nypo.html#t-4) . The nutriment consciousness signifies here the rebirth-consciousness. _5_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.012.nypo.html#t-5) . aayatim punabbhavaabhinibbatti; Comy: "This is the mind-and-body (naama-ruupa) conascent with that very (rebirth) consciousness." This refers to the third link of the dependent origination: "Through (rebirth) consciousness conditioned is mind-and-body" (viññaa.na-paccayaa naama-ruupam). _6_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.012.nypo.html#t-6) . Comy: "The Exalted One said this for giving to the monk an opening for a further question." _7_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.012.nypo.html#t-7) . Comy: "Why does not the monk continue to ask: 'Who becomes?' Because as one cherishing wrong views, he believes that 'A being has become, has come to be.' Hence he does not question further, because it would conflict with his own beliefs. And also the Master terminates here the exposition, thinking: 'However much he questions, he will not be satisfied. He is just asking empty questions.'" _8_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.012.nypo.html#t-8) . Comy: "Here the Master takes up that very point from where he started the exposition: 'Through the sixfold sense (organ) base conditioned is sense-impression,' and here he now turns round the exposition (to the cessation of the cycle of dependent origination). "In this discourse, there is one link (of cause and fruit) between consciousness and mind-and-body; one link (of fruit and cause) between feeling and craving, and one link (of cause and fruit) between the process of becoming and birth." Sub-Comy: "Since, in the words of the discourse, 'The nutriment consciousness is a condition for the future arising of a renewed existence,' (consciousness is regarded) as being a condition in a former existence for a future existence, and as being a principal cause (muula-kaarana), therefore the Commentary says that 'there is a link (of cause and fruit) between consciousness and mind-and-body.' Hence it should be understood that by the term consciousness, also the 'kamma-forming consciousness' (abhisa"nkhaara-viññaa.na) is implied" (i.e., apart from being resultant rebirth consciousness). #81176 From: "Alex" Date: Mon Jan 14, 2008 7:05 am Subject: Re: Is Nibbana a Dhamma? Is Nibbana really Anatta? truth_aerator Dear Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Dear Alex, > > Thank you for your theory: > >> It is not my theory! It is more than that. > A: "First of all: Existence & Non-existence is a dependently arisen > perception, something that ceases (nirodha) in Nibbana." > > Scott: Perception of what? In order to say or know "X exists" there must be a dependently arisen perception. In order to say or know "X doesn't exist" there must be a dependently arisen perception or a knowledge of absence of perception. > > A: "2nd) In Nibbana there won't be a concern with atta or anatta." > > Scott: This would be due to the cessation of Concern I suppose. >>> And also due to lack of perceptions on which Avijja(Moha) could theorize on. > A: "3rd) Nibbana is ultimate happiness, cessation of 6 consciousneses, > cessation of greed-anger & delusion. But there is 'unestablished > consciousness (vijja?) not partaking the allness of the all." > > Scott: This is controversial. >>> The three things mentioned are orthodox views, so they can't be controversial to orthodoxy. If Nibbaana is cessation of > 'dependently arisen perception' then what is this 'unestablished > consciousness' of which you speak? >> --------- Consciousness without surface (viññanam anidassanam): This term appears to be related to the following image from SN 12.64: "Just as if there were a roofed house or a roofed hall having windows on the north, the south, or the east. When the sun rises, and a ray has entered by way of the window, where does it land?" "On the western wall, lord." "And if there is no western wall, where does it land?" "On the ground, lord." "And if there is no ground, where does it land?" "On the water, lord." "And if there is no water, where does it land?" "It does not land, lord." "In the same way, where there is no passion for the nutriment of physical food ... contact ... intellectual intention ... consciousness, where there is no delight, no craving, then consciousness does not land there or grow. Where consciousness does not land or grow, name-&-form does not alight. Where name-&-form does not alight, there is no growth of fabrications. Where there is no growth of fabrications, there is no production of renewed becoming in the future. Where there is no production of renewed becoming in the future, there is no future birth, aging, & death. That, I tell you, has no sorrow, affliction, or despair." In other words, normal sensory consciousness is experienced because it has a "surface" against which it lands: the sense organs and their objects, which constitute the "all." For instance, we experience visual consciousness because of the eye and forms of which we are conscious. Consciousness without surface, however, is directly known, without intermediary, free from any dependence on conditions at all. This consciousness thus differs from the consciousness factor in dependent co-arising, which is defined in terms of the six sense media. Lying outside of time and space, it would also not come under the consciousness-aggregate, which covers all consciousness near and far; past, present, and future. And, as SN 35.23 notes, the word "all" in the Buddha's teaching covers only the six sense media, which is another reason for not including this consciousness under the aggregates. However, the fact that it is outside of time and space — in a dimension where there is no here, there, or in between (Ud I.10), no coming, no going, or staying (Ud VIII.1) — means that it cannot be described as permanent or omnipresent, terms that have meaning only within space and time. Some have objected to the equation of this consciousness with nibbana, on the grounds that nibbana is no where else in the Canon described as a form of consciousness. Thus they have proposed that consciousness without surface be regarded as an arahant's consciousness of nibbana in meditative experience, and not nibbana itself. This argument, however, contains two flaws: (1) The term viññanam anidassanam also occurs in DN 11, where it is described as where name & form are brought to an end: surely a synonym for nibbana. (2) If nibbana is an object of mental consciousness (as a dhamma), it would come under the all, as an object of the intellect. There are passages in the Canon (such as AN 9.36) that describe meditators experiencing nibbana as a dhamma, but these passages seem to indicate that this description applies up through the level of non- returning. Other passages, however, describe nibbana as the ending of all dhammas. For instance, Sn V.6 quotes the Buddha as calling the attainment of the goal the transcending of all dhammas. Sn IV.6 and Sn IV.10 state that the arahant has transcended dispassion, said to be the highest dhamma. Thus, for the arahant, nibbana is not an object of consciousness. Instead it is directly known without mediation. Because consciousness without feature is directly known without mediation, there seems good reason to equate the two. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.049.than.html#n-9 >>> What meaning can 'ultimate happiness' have, if there is no one to feel it? >>>> Precisely because there are no feelings (all of which have drawbacks) there is Ultimate Happiness. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.034.than.html Again, as my other assertions, they are found in the suttas which if you have read them, then you would know. 'Not partaking in the > allness of the all' is a phrase made of smoke-words which hang > together on invisible strands of non-existence silk. Anyone can > string together such a dream. > > 4th) "It is interesting how Nibbana shares many similiarities with > Atta (except for control maybe): Permanence (timeless) & Ultimate > Happiness (not of 6 senses)." > > Scott: Do you have any solid textual support for this Ultimate > Happiness as it relates to Experience? I think that the view you > suggest reflects a wish that something of You will be able to > Experience Ultimate Happiness while 'in Nibbaana'. > Nibbana is absence of painful and less than absolute happiness. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.034.than.html > A: "Ultimately Nibbana is to be realized not talked about! > Speculating is one thing, actually experiencing it is another." > > Scott: This is a well-worn platitude. Aren't you merely speculating? >>>> And practising. With Metta, Alex #81177 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 14, 2008 7:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Sutta Presenting the "No Person/No Actor/ No Agent" Perspective of the Dhamma nilovg Hi Howard, Thank you for this sutta and Co. I appreciate it that you posted it. Nina. Op 14-jan-2008, om 15:51 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > SN 12.12 > Phagguna Sutta > To Phagguna #81178 From: Dieter Möller Date: Mon Jan 14, 2008 9:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Asoka, Ch 6, no 6. moellerdieter Hi Sarah ( Jon and Nina), thanks for your nice new year wishes which I like to return to you heartedly. The way you are managing the list is an example for kindness and patience with freedom of expression when different views are clashing. So , even not being able to compete with the usual speed of DSG exchanges , I am looking forward to meet eachother on this or that thread. you wrote: 'D: I think there is no question when we read the suttas ..the difference may occur when we (try to) translate it into practise. Mainstream Buddhism to mean what is assumed to be the view/practise of the majority .. (in respect to the teacher , the Buddha Dhamma) ... S: Yes, this is a good definition, but of course being 'Mainstream Buddhism', i.e. a 'majority' understanding of the teachings today, does not make it right, wouldn't you agree? D: yes.. and thinking about it, the term ''Mainstream Buddhism' doesn't real fit because it usually refers to the traditional aspect. What I meant is the majority view of the more serious Dhamma students. S: I'm always very happy to discuss any sutta in detail. It would be easier for me to do so if you (or others) make it very clear what the purpose in the selection and quote is, i.e what the point being made is. Otherwise we both just agree that it's a good sutta, draw our own conclusions and that's the end of the discussion! D: as I am concerned the sutta quotations I refered too , was mainly for the purpose to show the necessity of the N.P. training , i.e. sila, samadhi, panna, each sequence providing the support for the other (the latter for release) . Whereas we certainly don't disagree about the sila part (path element 3,4,5), the aspects of samadhi , i.e. right effort, right míndfulness and right concentration) have been - so my impression- always been a dispute of DSG. Whether that is due to a view generally shared by 'Abhidhammikas' or to A.S.'s interpretation I am not sure yet , likewise how difficult it is for example for you to have a break of thinking , ie. to be quite on will.. (?) Cruicial seems to me the point of anatta and the use of ultimate truth of Non Self being an argument for non action towards panna ( as there is no I/self , how can there be any useful action e.g. for meditation ). (?) Besides that the canonical guidelines for the training are questioned , the gradual progress of detachment ( from self identification) is neglected. That we may not believe anymore in a Self ( e.g. by beginning to understand the conditioning or the dependent oigination ) does not mean that we are liberated from the I delusion, our clinging since such long time. We need to work with what is available to us..with the described strategy towards the ultimate truth.. with Metta Dieter P.S. I will look for the link #81179 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is Nibbana a Dhamma? Is Nibbana really Anatta? nilovg Hi Tep, just a remark about the Patisambidhamagga on D.O. Op 14-jan-2008, om 4:34 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > Tep to Scott about the D.O.: Very clear reply ! The two existences > make better sense to me as > well. ------- N: Yes, I study now the Visuddhimagga. But in different contexts there are so many ways of presenting the D.O. In the Patis. (p. 52) I read some interesting passages where parts of the D.O. (five dhammas each time), are taken and refer to the past, then to the present and then to the future. I just thought it may interest you. ----- Nina. #81180 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] thoughts on practice nilovg Hi Larry, Op 13-jan-2008, om 22:21 heeft Larry het volgende geschreven: > Didn't you give a series on the insight knowledges or the various > stages of purification > sometime in the past year? I looked but couldn't find it. If you > have a date that would be > helpful. Which post to Tep are you referring to? ------- N: Do you mean my Letters on Vipassana? See Zolag. I can't remember. Post to Tep on Khanika samaadhi: Antw.: [dsg] Re: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (73) .. sakkayaditthi ... Datum: 12 januari 2008 21:04:28 GMT+01:00 ------- Here I quoted some from the Survey. Nina. #81181 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is Nibbana a Dhamma? Is Nibbana really Anatta? nilovg Dear Scott, Nibbaana could not be object of desire as you say, nor could the lokuttara cittas be object of desire. Nina. Op 13-jan-2008, om 21:46 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: > I suppose nibbaana can be the object of desire, but this > would then be nibbaana as concept and citta would be rooted in desire, > not Nibbaana. #81182 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:54 am Subject: Re: TYPO FIX Re: [dsg] Re: My Understanding of Ajahn Sujin's Interp... nilovg Hi Howard, Op 13-jan-2008, om 20:57 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > I'm talking about setting up conditions that influence *what* we will > > see. And we can & do manage that all the time! > -------- > N: You mean seeing? Vipaakacitta, result of kamma? But could anybody > influence kamma? > ------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > Nina, our volitional actions ARE kamma! (Nina, on occasion, and > this is > one such, what you have to say and what the Buddha had to say are > not very > close.) ------- N: Seeing is vipaakacitta, result of past kamma. I am not thinking of volitional actions now, thus, kamma now. Thus what is past kamma cannot be altered, nobody can do anything. When seeing arises, it is the passive side of life. Just result. Nina. #81183 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jan 14, 2008 7:09 am Subject: Re: TYPO FIX Re: [dsg] Re: My Understanding of Ajahn Sujin's Interp... upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 1/14/2008 2:55:00 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Op 13-jan-2008, om 20:57 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > I'm talking about setting up conditions that influence *what* we will > > see. And we can & do manage that all the time! > -------- > N: You mean seeing? Vipaakacitta, result of kamma? But could anybody > influence kamma? > ------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > Nina, our volitional actions ARE kamma! (Nina, on occasion, and > this is > one such, what you have to say and what the Buddha had to say are > not very > close.) ------- N: Seeing is vipaakacitta, result of past kamma. I am not thinking of volitional actions now, thus, kamma now. Thus what is past kamma cannot be altered, nobody can do anything. -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Of course it cannot be altered now. It already occurred! Who would possibly say otherwise. It may have occurred lifetimes ago or a fraction of a second ago, and that kamma, that volitional action, certainly inalterable, was condition for the present seeing and what is seen. But it is gone, and, of course nothing can be done about it. (I don't believe in time travel, Nina! LOL!) But just as past kamma conditions present seeing and what is seen, the kamma of the present moment can be condition for the seeing that immediately follows or at some time much later. It is NOW that is important. ------------------------------------------------------ When seeing arises, it is the passive side of life. Just result. ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: Who is debating that? Not me! What I'm saying counts is present volition and action. What already is done, is done! That's rather obvious, hmmm? ----------------------------------------------------- Nina. ========================= With metta, Howard #81184 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Jan 14, 2008 9:39 am Subject: The 5 Abilities bhikkhu0 Friends: The 5 Mental Abilities are what actually Awakens! The blessed Buddha once said: Bhikkhus, friends, there are these 5 abilities (indriya). Which five? The ability (faculty) of faith, The ability of energy, The ability of awareness, The ability of concentration, The ability of understanding. And how and where, Bhikkhus and friends, is the faith ability to be found? Among the four factors of stream entry!* The faith ability is to be found there. And how and where, Bhikkhus and friends, is the energy ability to be found? Among the four best efforts! The energy ability is to be found there. And how and where, Bhikkhus and friends, is the awareness ability to be found? Among the four foundations of awareness! The awareness ability is to be found there. And how and where, Bhikkhus and friends, is the concentration ability to be found? Among the four jhanas! The concentration ability is to be found there. And how and where, Bhikkhus and friends, is the understanding ability to be found? Among the Four Noble Truths! The understanding ability is to be found there. --- Comments: Quite logical actually & naturally. Note all 5 abilities are rooted in 4 aspects. Like a ship having 4 anchors, one in each direction, lies all still, not drifting an inch. * 4 factors of stream entry are: Having a Noble friend. Hearing the True Dhamma. Reflecting on this Dhamma. Training according to this Dhamma. Friendship is the Greatest * Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka :-) ..... #81185 From: "m. nease" Date: Mon Jan 14, 2008 1:06 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Swimming analogy m_nease Hi Jon, Thaks for your good comments in this thread and apologies for this late response. jonabbott@... wrote: "...in the case of the kusala mental factors the most important of these is the level to which that mental factor had been accumulated prior to our birth in this present lifetime." This seems new to me--can you please refer me to a source text? Thanks in advance. mike #81186 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Jan 14, 2008 8:09 pm Subject: Re: Is Nibbana a Dhamma? Is Nibbana really Anatta? scottduncan2 Dear Alex, A: "It is not my theory!..." Scott: No, its that of Thanissaro Bhikkhu: "Consciousness without surface (vi~n~nanam anidassanam)...Thus, for the arahant, nibbana is not an object of consciousness. Instead it is directly known without mediation. Because consciousness without feature is directly known without mediation, there seems good reason to equate the two." Scott: I'll leave you to it, Alex. Its pure speculation. Some people want to have their cake and eat it too and call it Nibbaana. Sincerely, Scott. #81187 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Jan 14, 2008 8:10 pm Subject: Re: Is Nibbana a Dhamma? Is Nibbana really Anatta? buddhistmedi... Hi Nina and Scott (Attn: Dieter, Howard, Charles D., and other members), - You wrote: "Hi Tep, just a remark about the Patisambidhamagga on D.O.." >N: Yes, I study now the Visuddhimagga. But in different contexts there are so many ways of presenting the D.O. In the Patis. (p. 52) I read some interesting passages where parts of the D.O. (five dhammas each time), are taken and refer to the past, then to the present and then to the future. I just thought it may interest you. T: I am glad that you kindly referred to the passage 275 of the 'dhammathiti~nana' in Chapter IV of the Treatise I (On Knowledge). Right, the five dhammas (ignorance, formations, craving, clinging, being) in the Dependent Origination span over the three peiods of time by means of "the four generalizations"(of past cause, present result, present cause, future result) and with these five dhammas in each generalization. Let me present the Patism passage 275 for other members who do not have a copy of the book. 275. In being-as-action before [this life] there is delusion, which is ignorance; there is accumulation, which is formations; there is attachment, which is craving; there is adoption, which is clinging; there is volition, which is being; thus these five ideas in being-as- action before [this life] are conditions for rebirth-linking here [in the present life]. Here [in this present life] there is rebirth-linking, which is consciousness; there is precipitation [in the womb], which is mentality-materiality; there is sensitivity, which is base [for contact]; there is what is touched, which is contact; there is what is felt, which is feeling; thus these five ideas in being-as- rearising here have their conditions in action(kamma) done in the past. Here [in this present life] with the maturing of the bases there is delusion, which is ignorance; there is accumulation, which is formations; there is attachment, which is craving; there is adoption, which is clinging; there is volition, which is being; thus these five ideas in being-as-action here are conditions for rebirth-linking in the future. In the future there is rebirth-linking, which is consciousness; there is precipitation [in the womb]. which is mentality-materiality; there is sensitivity, which is base [for contact]; there is what is touched, which is contact; there is what is felt, which is feeling; thus these five ideas in being-as-rearising in the future have their conditions in action(kamma) done here [in the present life]. So he knows, sees, recognizes, penetrates, the four generalization [of past cause, present result, present cause, future result], the three periods of time, and the dependent origination with three links, doing so in these twenty modes [with five modes in each generalization]. .............. I like the Arahant Sariputta's explanation that rebirth-linking is not only the starting consciousness of this present life, but also any consciousness that arises in the present life as well as in the future. I also like to know that : 1) the five dhammas in being before this life are conditions for rebirth-linking here; 2) the five dhammas in being here are conditions for rebirth-linking in the future; 3) the five dhammas in being here have their conditions in kamma done in the present life; 4) the five dhammas in being to rearise in the future have their conditions in kamma done here. Thank you, Nina. Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Tep, > just a remark about the Patisambidhamagga on D.O. > Op 14-jan-2008, om 4:34 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > > > Tep to Scott about the D.O.: Very clear reply ! The two existences > > make better sense to me as > > well. > ------- #81188 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Jan 14, 2008 8:36 pm Subject: Outline of Purification of View V.1 lbidd2 Hi Sarah and all, Here is a brief outline of the Purification of View in "The Path of Purification". I will proceed page by page presenting what catches my eye. Any comments you care to make would be more than welcome and if I skip any important details please bring them up. I will also add a few comments of my own which I am sure could be corrected. Vism: Now it was said earlier that he should first fortify his knowledge by learning and questioning about those things that are the "soil" after he has perfected the two purifications -- purification of virtue and purification of consciousness -- that are the "roots" '. L: From the chapter on Virtue: " The abandoning of defilements by substitution of opposites is shown by 'virtue'; that by suppression is shown by 'concentration' and that by cutting off is shown by 'understanding'. "Likewise prevention of defilements' transgression is shown by 'virtue'; prevention of obsession (by defilement) is shown by 'concentration'; prevention of inherent tendencies is shown by 'understanding'. "Purification from the defilement of misconduct is shown by 'virtue'; purification from the defilement of craving, by 'concentration'; and purification from the defilement of (false) views, by 'understanding'." (Vism.I,12,13) L: "Learning and questioning about those things that are the 'soil' " refers to learning and questioning about the details of abhidhamma. This is preliminary to the development of understanding that is accomplished with the next five purifications. Vism: But it was said above that "The five purifications, purification of view, purification by overcoming doubt, purification by knowledge and vision of what is path and what is not path, purification by knowledge and vision of the way, and purification by knowledge and vision, are the "trunk" '. Herein, 'purification of view' is the correct seeing of mentality-materiality. L: Here 'mentality' should be taken as the 4 aggregates including consciousness but not including nibbana. Nibbana is the end. Purification is nibbana and the path of purification is the way to nibbana. Any comments? Larry #81189 From: "kanchaa" Date: Mon Jan 14, 2008 10:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Suggestions! kanchuu2003 Dear Nina, Thanks for your reply. All of the sudden, I realize, I am unconsious again.Keeping oneself conscious full time, at the moment, I cannot. At this stage, is avoiding/ running away from the scene/place that irritates you is right thing to do? Or any suggestions. Can anyone suggest me the literature of 4 Noble Truths in detail? Sincerely, Nitesh #81190 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 15, 2008 12:42 am Subject: Visuddhimagga 228-231 and Tiika. nilovg Visuddhimagga 228-231 Intro: feelings can be classified in different ways: by way of the contacts through the six doors, or by way of association with all eightynine cittas. Feeling is a universal cetasika accompanying each citta. In the following sections only feeling accompanying mundane vipaakacittas are taken into account since these are considered according to the method of the teaching of the Dependent Origination. They pertain to the link of the Dependent Origination which is: contact conditions feeling. The mundane vipaakacittas are, as we have seen, five pairs of sense- cognitions (seeing etc.) which are kusala vipaaka or akusala vipaaka; two types of receiving-consciousness (sampa.ticchanacitta), succeeding the sense-cognitions, which are kusala vipaakacitta and akusala vipaakacitta; three types of investigating-consciousness (santiira.nacitta), succeeding receiving-consciousness, which are two types of kusala vipaakacitta accompanied by indifferent feeling or by happy feeling, and one type of akusala vipaakacitta; eight types of sahetuka (with roots) kusala vipaakacittas, five types of ruupa- jhaanacittas and four types of aruupa-jhaanacittas. Thus, there are altogether thirtytwo kinds of mundane resultant consciousness. --------------- Text Vis. 228: [(vii) Feeling] As to the clause 'With contact as condition, feeling': Feelings, when named by way of door 'Eye-contact-born' and all the rest, Are only six; but then they are At nine and eighty sorts assessed. ----------- Text Vis. 229: In the analysis of this clause [in the Vibha"nga] only six kinds of feeling according to door are given thus, 'Eye-contact-born feeling, ear-, nose-, tongue-, body-, mind-contact-born feeling' (Vbh. 136). Still, when classed according to association with the eighty-nine kinds of consciousness, they are 'at nine and eighty sorts assessed'. ---------- Text Vis. 230: But from the nine and eighty feelings Thirty-two, no more, appear Associated with result, And only those are mentioned here. Herein, contact in the five doors Conditions five in eightfold way, And single way the rest; it acts In the mind door in the same way. ****** Text Vis. 231: Herein, in the five doors contact beginning with eye- contact is a condition in eight ways, as conascence, mutuality, support, result, nutriment, association, presence, and non-disappearance conditions, for the five kinds of feeling that have respectively eye sensitivity, etc., as their physical basis. -------- N: Eye-contact accompanies seeing-consciousness. This contact conditions the feeling accompanying seeing-consciousness by way of conascence and other conditions that are conascent. It is the same for the other sense-contacts. Nutriment-condition is mentioned, because contact is a mental nutriment for the other conascent dhammas including feeling. Contact as a mental nutriment supports the prolongation of the cycle of birth and death. ----------- Text Vis.: But that contact beginning with eye-contact is a condition in one way only, as decisive-support condition, for the rest of resultant feeling in the sense sphere occurring in each door as receiving, investigation and registration. -------- N: As to the rest of resultant feeling, the Tiika refers to the feeling accompanying receiving-consciousness (sampa.ticchanacitta) that is conditioned by the previous sense-cognition and cetasikas by way of proximity-condition, anantara-paccaya, and also to the feeling accompanying the vipaakacittas in the same process that are not immediately succeeding the sense-cognitions. These are investigating- consciousness (santiira.nacitta) and registering-consciousness (tadaaramma.nacitta). All these feelings are conditioned by eye- contact and the other sense-contacts by way of decisive support- condition, upanissaya-pacaya, as they arise in each of the sense-door processes. Decisive support-condition refers here to natural decisive support- condition. It is said in the text “ in one way only”, referring to this condition that is generally applied as a common condition, according to the Tiika, to the feelings accompanying the vipaakacittas other than those accompanying the sense-cognitions. As to registering-consciousness, this arises only in the sensuous planes of existence and it only pertains to cittas of the sense- sphere. In this case, kamma can produce two more types of vipaakacittas after the javana-cittas, but they do not always arise. ------------ Conclusion: Contact accompanies each citta. Contact accompanying seeing is called eye-contact, contact accompanying hearing is called ear-contact and so on for the other contacts accompanying the other sense-cognitions. In this context it is explained that eye-contact and the other contacts accompanying the sense-cognitions condition not only the accompanying feeling but also the feelings of the other vipaakacittas arising in the same sense-door process. They do so by way of one type of condition, namely, by natural decisive support-condition. Thus, eye-contact accompanying seeing that contacts visible object is a decisive support, a cogent reason for the feelings arising with all other vipaakacittas of the eye-door process. And so it is in the case of the other sense-door processes. Eye-contact ‘contacts’ visible object so that seeing and the other cetasikas, including feeling, can experience that object. The vipaakacittas that arise in the same process after seeing has fallen away, still experience visible object. The accompanying feelings are strongly dependent on eye-contact and it is the same in the case of the other sense-door processes. The cittas in a sense-door process succeed one another extremely rapidly. They all experience the same sense object and are dependent on the same sense-door which has not fallen away yet. It seems that feeling lasts, but there are different kinds of feeling which arise because of the appropriate conditions and fall away immediately. Feeling does not belong to a person. *********** Nina. #81191 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 15, 2008 2:10 am Subject: Re: TYPO FIX Re: [dsg] Re: My Understanding of Ajahn Sujin's Interp... nilovg Hi Howard, I do not disagree with what you write in this post. But I shall return to a previous post. You did not get what I meant. Op 14-jan-2008, om 21:09 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: Last post: > But just as past kamma conditions present seeing and what is seen, the > kamma of the present moment can be condition for the seeing that > immediately > follows or at some time much later. It is NOW that is important. > --------- What I'm saying counts is present volition > and action. What already is done, is done! That's rather obvious, > hmmm? > ----------------------------------------------------- The former post: N: You said before to Sarah: As for seeing or > not > seeing particular sights, of course we can exercise control. To see > the > sight > we call "the back yard", we walk around back.... -------- I answered: N: To me it seems that you do not speak about seeing, but about thinking on account of what is seen. When there is only seeing, it is not known whether the object is pleasant or not, or whether we rather turn the other side, whether we walk around the backyard. ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I'm talking about setting up conditions that influence *what* we will see. And we can & do manage that all the time! ---------------------------------------------------------- N: Here you do not talk about present kamma, but about walking somewhere to see something. And it seems you do not talk about pure seeing, vipaakacitta, but thinking about what is seen. That is another subject. When walking to the backyard there are many kinds of cittas, akusala cittas mostly. In between there is already seeing, whether you want it or not. By walking you cannot control seeing. Maybe on the way an unpleasant object is experienced by seeing and seeing does not even know whether the object is pleasant or not. In your last post you were clearer. ------- Nina. #81192 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Jan 15, 2008 4:52 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Is Nibbana a Dhamma? Is Nibbana really Anatta? scottduncan2 Dear Nina, Thanks for the reply: N: "Nibbaana could not be object of desire as you say, nor could the lokuttara cittas be object of desire." Scott: I don't like theories about Nibbaana since they all seem to have, at their heart, a misguided belief that one can simply have a goal, work hard, and arrive at the goal. This is fine in life but Nibbaana cannot be attained though having a goal held consciously since this is mediated by self-view and will never be condition for the arising of the Path. Sincerely, Scott. #81193 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Jan 15, 2008 5:23 am Subject: Re: Is Nibbana a Dhamma? Is Nibbana really Anatta? scottduncan2 Dear Tep, Sorry about the delay; thanks for the reply: T: "I am not familiar enough with Ven. Nanvira's commentary works to judge him. You said he 'suffered from some sort of mood-related inflation of the ego' and it sounded like an opinion of someone who knew him very well. Yet, you 'don't read him, except when he is referenced'." Scott: Don't worry, Tep. I merely offered an opinion. Of course you know that I couldn't have known Ven. Navavira well. Knowing that Nanavira killed himself allows one to infer the presence of some fairly complex psychological and mood states. Reading his work simply from the perspective of armchair (albeit informed) psychologising, one then sees evidence for a sort of intellectual version of hypomania. I merely offer the opinion that one need not become too excited about the writings of a person I imagine to have been very, very intelligent and also very, very disturbed. T: "Concerning the quote you took from PTS PED below, the Pali 'ceto' means "heart or mind". Is it a synonym of 'citta' or not? Thanissaro Bhikkhu says ceto-vimutti is 'awareness-release' rather than consciousness-release or mind-release. How would you translate 'ceto- vimutti' yourself?" Scott: I think 'ceto' and 'citta' can both mean 'mind', and so seem to be used synonymously at times. At other times 'citta' seems to refer to consciousness. 'Mano' is also used synonymously at times and at others not. I think it depends on the context. I'm not the expert as you know. I wouldn't necessarily translate ceto-vimutti. Why do you ask? 522. sa~n~naavivatto, cetovivatto, cittavivatto, ~naanavivatto, vimokkhavivatto, saccavivatto. (i) sa~njananto vivattatiiti sa~n~naa vivatto, (ii) cetayanto vivattatiiti cetovivatto (iii) vijaananto vivattatiiti cittavivatto, (iv) ~naanam karonto vivattatiiti ~naanavivatto (v) vossajjanto vivattatiiti vimokkhavivatto, (vi) tathatthe vivattatiiti saccavivatto. T: "Please note that there are 'cetovivatto' and 'cittavivatto' -- two separate things. This indicates that ceto is not equivalent to citta. The translator (Nanamoli) translated 'ceto' as "will". What does the word "will" indicate if it is not citta? The word "heart' does not seem to fit (?)." Scott: Thanks for the above. I think ceto is sometimes translated as 'will' but I don't know much more about it. Sincerely, Scott. #81194 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Tue Jan 15, 2008 5:55 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (73) nichiconn Dear Friends, Part 13 16. Mahaanipaato 1. Sumedhaatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa 495. "Ki.m mama paro karissati, attano siisamhi .dayhamaanamhi; anubandhe jaraamara.ne, tassa ghaataaya gha.titabba.m. 496. "Dvaara.m apaapuritvaanaha.m, maataapitaro aniikaratta~nca; disvaana chama.m nisinne, rodante idamavoca.m. 497. "Diigho baalaana.m sa.msaaro, punappuna~nca rodata.m; anamatagge pitu mara.ne, bhaatu vadhe attano ca vadhe. 498. "Assu tha~n~na.m rudhira.m, sa.msaara.m anamataggato saratha; sattaana.m sa.msarata.m, saraahi a.t.thiina~nca sannicaya.m. 499. "Sara caturodadhii, upaniite assutha~n~narudhiramhi; sara ekakappama.t.thiina.m, sa~ncaya.m vipulena sama.m. 493. "What will another person do for me when his own head is burning? When old age and death are following closely, one must strive for their destruction." 494. Opening the door, and seeing her mother and father and Anikaratta seated on the ground lamenting, she said this: 495. "Continued existence is long for fools and for those who lament again and again at that which is without begining or end, at the death of a father, the slaughter of a brother, and their own slaughter. 496. "Remember the tears, the milk, the blood, [and] continued existence as being without beginning or end. Remember the heap of bones of beings who are journeying on. 497. "Remember the four oceans compared with tears, milk, and blood. Remember the heap of bones [of one man] for one aeon equal [in size] to Mount Vipula. RD: What shall another do for me? For me Whose head is wrapped in flames, *429 whose steps are dogged By age and death that tarry not. To crush Them utterly I needs must strive.' (493) Then coming to her door she saw the king Her suitor, and her parents seated there And shedding tears. And once more spake to them: (494) 'Long have they yet to wander through the worlds Who witless aye again their tears renew, Weeping world without end for father dead, Or brother slain, or that themselves must die. *430 (495) Call ye to mind how it was said that tears And milk and blood flow on world without end. And bear in mind that tumulus of bones By creatures piled who wander through the worlds. (496) Remember the four oceans as compared With all the flow of tears and milk and blood. Remember the 'great cairn of one man's bones From one aeon alone, equal to Vipula'; (497) *429 A simile frequent in the Nikaayas. Presumably muslin turbans, let alone oily hair-dressing, often caused such mishaps. Cf. Sa.my. Nik., i. 108, v. 440; Any. Nik., ii. 93, etc. *430 These and the following verses are apparently allusions to the first Vagga of the Anamatagga Sa.myutta ('World-without-end' Collocation) in the Sa.myutta Nikaaya, vol. ii., 178 ff. The only feature lacking there is the perennial blood-flow - a point not without interest in the history of the Pali Canon. The bone-cairn gaathaa in the Vagga is quoted by the Commentator, and runs thus: 'But one man's bones who has one aeon lived Might form a cairn - so said the Mighty Seer - High as Vipulla, higher than the Peak Of Vultures, mountain-burg of Magadha' - i.e., the ancient hill fortress of the Magadhese before they built their capital Raajagaha in the plain. No more ancient remains than these in India have yet been identified (Rhys Davids, Buddhist India, 37). The repetition in verses 496, 497 is curious in a work where redundancy is so severely repressed. Either it goes to strengthen the symptoms that the last two Psalms are by a different and later hand, or else two versions have here been incorporated. In 496 Sumedhaa first speaks to all her three chief hearers: 'Call ye to mind' (saratha); the following admonitions are to the Prince only: 'bear in mind' and 'remember' (saraahi, sara). ..to be continued, connie #81195 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jan 15, 2008 1:12 am Subject: Re: TYPO FIX Re: [dsg] Re: My Understanding of Ajahn Sujin's Interp... upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 1/15/2008 5:10:54 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: I answered: N: To me it seems that you do not speak about seeing, but about thinking on account of what is seen. When there is only seeing, it is not known whether the object is pleasant or not, or whether we rather turn the other side, whether we walk around the backyard. ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I'm talking about setting up conditions that influence *what* we will see. And we can & do manage that all the time! ---------------------------------------------------------- N: Here you do not talk about present kamma, but about walking somewhere to see something. And it seems you do not talk about pure seeing, vipaakacitta, but thinking about what is seen. ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I *do* talk about present kamma. Nina, if there is desire to see sights of the sort that are the basis for certain conventional experiences, we engage in all sorts of activities including multiple moments of willing that lead to such sights. A desire to see a football (soccer) game leads to numerous acts of kamma that lead to sights of a specific sort. My point is simply that volitional actions have consequences, among which could be sights that are conceptually characterizable in specific ways such as "seeing the tree in the back yard". If Lodewijk says to you, "Look! There's Khun Sujin on TV!", you will intentionally turn and look at the TV set. Your (multiple acts of) kamma lead to a sight of a particular sort. That is, exactly, kammic influence. Another example: We hear a painfully loud noise and react with aversion, quickly covering our ears with our palms. The mental reaction is kamma, and it leads almost immediately to rupas of motion (vayo). This is kammic influence. ------------------------------------------------------- That is another subject. When walking to the backyard there are many kinds of cittas, akusala cittas mostly. In between there is already seeing, whether you want it or not. ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Yes, but they are not the particular sights I'm pointing to at the moment. I'm pointing to the sights involving "seeing the tree in the back yard", and they are kamma vipaka resulting from the original intention I discussed. In any case, Nina, I don't get why you are nit-picking here. My point was that "we" bring about results by means of kamma. And that is true. It happens all the time. ------------------------------------------------------- By walking you cannot control seeing. ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: That's not true, Nina. Walking in one direction results in certain visual content, and walking in a different direction results in different visual content. There do exist *chains* of conditions. ( A > B > C > ... ). -------------------------------------------------- Maybe on the way an unpleasant object is experienced by seeing and seeing does not even know whether the object is pleasant or not. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: So? ======================= With metta, Howard #81196 From: "Alex" Date: Tue Jan 15, 2008 6:22 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Is Nibbana a Dhamma? Is Nibbana really Anatta? truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Dear Nina, > > > Thanks for the reply: > > N: "Nibbaana could not be object of desire as you say, nor could the > lokuttara cittas be object of desire." > > Scott: I don't like theories about Nibbaana since they all seem to > have, at their heart, a misguided belief that one can simply have a > goal, work hard, and arrive at the goal. This is fine in life but > Nibbaana cannot be attained though having a goal held consciously > since this is mediated by self-view and will never be condition for > the arising of the Path. > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > First of all: Goal does NOT have to be a "desire". 2nd) If one doesn't set goals then one won't follow the path to reach it and thus one would never attain it. I think that this is a new age approach of not setting any goals, and all these beliefs that liberation is simply going to fall out of blue sky. Please don't twist my message by attaching too much to words I've used. Lots of Metta, Alex #81197 From: "Alex" Date: Tue Jan 15, 2008 6:26 am Subject: Re: Is Nibbana a Dhamma? Is Nibbana really Anatta? truth_aerator Dear Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Dear Tep, > > Sorry about the delay; thanks for the reply: > > T: "I am not familiar enough with Ven. Nanvira's commentary works to > judge him. You said he 'suffered from some sort of mood-related > inflation of the ego' and it sounded like an opinion of someone who > knew him very well. Yet, you 'don't read him, except when he is > referenced'." > > Scott: Don't worry, Tep. I merely offered an opinion. Of course you > know that I couldn't have known Ven. Navavira well. Knowing that > Nanavira killed himself allows one to infer the presence of some > fairly complex psychological and mood states. >>> As I understand he was very sick and didn't have access to good enough medicine living as a monk. In Buddha's time some Arahants (or those who became at the moment of death) committed suicide (used a knife) which Buddha called "blameless". Before you diss Ven. Nanavira (who could have been an Ariya) - SCOTT, how would you behave in similiar situation? Atleast Ven. Nanavira didn't disrobe and died as a MONK. Lots of Metta, Alex #81198 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Jan 15, 2008 6:31 am Subject: Re: Is Nibbana a Dhamma? Is Nibbana really Anatta? scottduncan2 Dear Alex, A: "As I understand he was very sick and didn't have access to good enough medicine living as a monk. In Buddha's time some Arahants (or those who became at the moment of death) committed suicide (used a knife) which Buddha called "blameless". Before you diss Ven. Nanavira (who could have been an Ariya) - SCOTT, how would you behave in similiar situation? Atleast Ven. Nanavira didn't disrobe and died as a MONK." Scott: Its not my concern but I think you ought to take care with what you imagine about Nanavira. Sincerely, Scott. #81199 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 15, 2008 6:34 am Subject: Re: kamma and vipaka. was: TYPO FIX nilovg Hi Howard, You and I talk about kamma and vipaaka in different ways and thus misunderstandings result. I only want to approach this subject by way of paramattha dhammas. I do not mind to go over this subject from the beginning, but I do not know whether this has your interest? I ask this since you find this nitpicking, and this is all right with me too. I find that one has to be very precise in order to have more understanding of the complex subject of kamma and vipaka. I do not pretend to understand all, far from it. Only at the first stage of insight there is deeper understanding of kamma and vipaka. But, depending on your interest I could say a little more, approaching it as paramattha dhammas. Nina. Op 15-jan-2008, om 15:12 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Howard: > I *do* talk about present kamma. Nina, if there is desire to see > sights > of the sort that are the basis for certain conventional > experiences, we > engage in all sorts of activities including multiple moments of > willing that lead > to such sights.