#81600 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jan 23, 2008 12:54 am Subject: Personalism/James (Re: [dsg] Re: Full bodied determinism?) upasaka_howard Hi, James - In a message dated 1/23/2008 5:44:52 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@... writes: Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: Okay: On p.127 of his book "A > History of Buddhist Philosophy, Continuities and Discontinuities," he writes > of "the Vatsiputriyas who propounded the view that there is a 'real person' > (santam pudgalam) who is neither substance (dravya), like material form > (rupa) nor a mere designation (praj~napti), like milk (ksira), this latter being > no more than an aggregate of substances." That's all he gives there, but I've > seen much more elsewhere. James: Thanks for providing this information. Unfortunately, I don't understand it. ;-)) > > > Also, Howard, do you believe that people exist? Just answer > straight out. You can't believe that they do and don't exist- that > doesn't make any sense. > -------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > You're right - in fact that "neither here nor there" position is exactly > the position of the personalists! James: Really? Just haven't seen that yet. ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Their meaning of 'person' is not just that of an interconnected, relationally-integrated aggregate of conditions (what I call an "aggregation"), nor is it that of (any of) the conditions themselves, nor is it that of something separate from the conditions, nor is it that of nothing at all, for it is considered a real thing (a "reality" in "KS-speak" ;-) that knows, thinks, sees, hears, and so on. To them, it is, *literally* the knower, thinker, seer, hearer, etc. To me, this is simply a timid atta-view. While Buddhaghosa will say such a thing as there being thinking but no thinker, the personalists admit of a real entity that is, exactly, a perceiver and actor. But they weasel out, for they deny that it is any of the khandhic elements or a collection of same, and at the same time they deny that it is anything other than them. ---------------------------------------------------------- I've already said that I do consider > people to exist. No hedging - they exist. James: Okay, thank you for the straight answer. I thought this was your viewpoint but I was starting to wonder because of this thread. > But what ARE they? People are instances of what I call "aggregations," > which I have defined elsewhere. They exist and are not merely imagined but are > empty of own-being in an even stricter way than the namas and rupas of which > they are composed. Moreover, it is an error to think of a person as an > individual rather than a collection. James: Okay, I am following you okay until you get to this point. I don't see the difference between and "individual" and a "collection". --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I do see a big difference, an important one of which is that collections are knowable only through the mind door. -------------------------------------------------------- Humans are individual collections of the five aggregates. I don't share your kamma and vice versa. I have had different lifetimes than you and vice versa. ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: No argument about the kamma. This distinction in kammic inheritance among persons is exactly a matter of a person being not just an arbitrary collection of conditions, but an integrated collection of interrelated conditions. Aggregations are certainly distinguishable. ----------------------------------------------------------- > And what can we really do with collections? We cannot LITERALLY see > them, hear them, touch them, or smell them. To speak of doing so is merely a > convention. We can, however, cognize them. They are mind-door objects only, and > it is only the dhammas of which they are composed that can literally be known > through the other sense doors. James: This description, to me, is getting dangerously close to saying that people don't exist, only dhammas exist. Are you trying to accomidate all viewpoints: Abhidhamma and Personalists? -------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I couldn't care less about various positions. I am expressing my understanding. I actively and regularly engage in introspection, in cittanupassana and dhammanupassana, and this is what I "see." It is clear to me. Of course, I don't say that I KNOW this, for I can't be sure that I'm right, but this IS how I see the matter regardless of the perspective of ANYONE else. As for exactly what I said here that you quoted above, it is true! While we see sights and hear sounds, we do not see collections of sights, or hear collections of sounds - we mentally cognize them. ---------------------------------------------------------------- > If by my saying more than "Yes, they exist," you will say that I have > not answered "straight out," well, you'll just have to make do ;- ). James: No, you answered staight out. Clarifications are fine. ;-)) I don't > believe in giving partial answers that obscure my full belief and understanding. > ------------------------------------------------------------- Metta, James =============================== With metta, Howard #81602 From: Dieter Möller Date: Wed Jan 23, 2008 10:27 am Subject: Re: Alleged Slowing Down of Mind States (Re: [dsg] Respnse to Re: my parody .... moellerdieter Hi Howard, Robert, Alex , and all, repeating in order to get an understanding : 'Dieter, I haven't the slightest clue why you and Alex seem to think these sutta quotes relate to claimed slowing down of mind states during meditation. I don't see that dealt with there in the slightest. What am I missing?' D: what is your understanding of : 'He trains himself to breathe in calming bodily fabrication and to breathe out calming bodily fabrication.' / 'He trains himself to breathe in calming mental processes, and to breathe out calming mental processes. ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: It speaks of calming the mind. That refers to an ease or peace, a lessening of upset, a lessening of desire for change & a corresponding satisfaction with whatever arises. It has nothing to do with speed of anything.---------------------------------------- D:That we have to calm the restlessness state of the every day mind in order to meditate , is out of question, isn't it? --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes. But this has nothing to do with speed of anything. -------------------------------------------------------- D:to change from high to low activity /fabrication has also to do with speed , however it wasn't speed in the first place I had in mind... I assumed Robert used 'slow down' as a synonym of 'calm (down) ' , so I was surprised about your rejection of the references (' don't see that dealt with there in the slightest ), seemingly based only on a different understandings of both words. H: In my opinion, mind states do not slow down while meditating. The idea is incoherent, in fact. Slow with respect to what? . D: slow /calm down the activity , the speed , in scientific terms the frequency the mind works in brain waves .. there are 4 categories of mind states ,the so-called beta, alpha, theta and delta brain waves ranging from to 40 down to 1,5 cycles per second... beta is our usual busy state of action, alpha the relaxed one ( ie. contemplative, meditative) , theta (day)dreaming and delta deep sleep. That is undisputed as far as I know. H: The states of mind that are "observing" are part of the very same flow of states that are "observed." D: that doesn't contradict the point of speed. It is a proven fact that during meditation the frequency of brain waves slow down from 13 -40 cycles per second to 7-12 . So the mind works at slower speed.. D: I think when you recall your meditation practise you will see it in way that the mind turns from a state of major body/speech/thought activity to the more passive state of observing ....calming action/performance in favor of 'contemplate /listen/examine' .. that shows another frequency H: What happens while meditating that is erroneously described as the mind slowing down is that calm and clarity and attention and mindfulness all increase enormously, and thus it is FAR easier to see what is what D: yes there is this increase ...not anymore sitting in a 'high speed train'.. the monkey mind not as usual jumping (in speed) from branch to branch D: there is no calm and clarity in a body/mind agitated .. and this I understand is clearly emphazised in both the Maha Satipatthana and Anapanasati Sutta as quoted. Over to you .. what do I miss ? ;-) H: I think that what you miss is what meditators typically mean when they speak of the mind slowing down. They literally mean that there is a subjective sense similar to that of seeing a film slowing down. I recall Joseph Goldstein, founder of the Insight Meditation Society, writing of the mindstream as like a sequence of film frames, with the frames "passing by" more slowly as meditation proceeds. D: I am not sure whether that is 'what meditators typically mean ' .. 1,840,000 Google links for 'meditation calm mind ' ...and we are talking about our individual experience H: But the mind that is observing and the mind that is observed is the same mind. There is no observer standing back, looking at the film. The film itself is doing the looking! The sense of slowing is a misinterpretation of merely being able to observe more easily due to heightened clarity. D: I remember we have here an issue not yet solved:' The film itself is doing the looking!' I do not follow you as the film represents to me the mental bodily phenomena (nama -rupa) which are conditioned by consciousness, which means being conscious of the phenomena. At high clarity however I assume -due to the unification- the mind becomes itself the film.. When those - who at least practise regularly for some time - have differences in understanding already in base issues, non- meditators may be encouraged in their view.. so let discuss that further ..comments by others also appreciated. with Metta Dieter #81603 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Jan 23, 2008 11:12 am Subject: Siila develops pa~n~na ..(was Re: Outline of Purification of View V.1) dhammanusara Hi Sarah (Larry, DC, Phil, Elaine),- I am interested in your following conversation. > > Sarah: "In other words, there cannot even be the first purification > without the development of panna (vipassana). So virtue is developed with right understanding." > > Larry: Always good to remember this. > .................. Sorry Larry, I do not completely agree with you. ;-) I discussed "siila develops pa~n~na" with you, Sarah, several times before. The discussion is now an old record (somewhat like "I Wanna Hold Your Hand"). But the discussion did not come to a conlcusion because you had insisted that "virtue is developed with right understanding" and I did not agree. Without replaying the old record, let me ask you a different question : How does "right understanding" develop the five precepts in a worldling? Hopefully we will learn something that helps develop right understanding. Thanks. Tep === #81604 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jan 23, 2008 6:38 am Subject: Re: Alleged Slowing Down of Mind States (Re: [dsg] Respnse to Re: my parody .... upasaka_howard Hi, Dieter - In a message dated 1/23/2008 1:24:54 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, moellerdieter@... writes: Hi Howard, Robert, Alex , and all, repeating in order to get an understanding : 'Dieter, I haven't the slightest clue why you and Alex seem to think these sutta quotes relate to claimed slowing down of mind states during meditation. I don't see that dealt with there in the slightest. What am I missing?' D: what is your understanding of : 'He trains himself to breathe in calming bodily fabrication and to breathe out calming bodily fabrication.' / 'He trains himself to breathe in calming mental processes, and to breathe out calming mental processes. ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: It speaks of calming the mind. That refers to an ease or peace, a lessening of upset, a lessening of desire for change & a corresponding satisfaction with whatever arises. It has nothing to do with speed of anything.---------------------------------------- D:That we have to calm the restlessness state of the every day mind in order to meditate , is out of question, isn't it? --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes. But this has nothing to do with speed of anything. -------------------------------------------------------- D:to change from high to low activity /fabrication has also to do with speed , however it wasn't speed in the first place I had in mind... I assumed Robert used 'slow down' as a synonym of 'calm (down) ' , so I was surprised about your rejection of the references (' don't see that dealt with there in the slightest ), seemingly based only on a different understandings of both words. H: In my opinion, mind states do not slow down while meditating. The idea is incoherent, in fact. Slow with respect to what? . D: slow /calm down the activity , the speed , in scientific terms the frequency the mind works in brain waves .. there are 4 categories of mind states ,the so-called beta, alpha, theta and delta brain waves ranging from to 40 down to 1,5 cycles per second... beta is our usual busy state of action, alpha the relaxed one ( ie. contemplative, meditative) , theta (day)dreaming and delta deep sleep. That is undisputed as far as I know. H: The states of mind that are "observing" are part of the very same flow of states that are "observed." D: that doesn't contradict the point of speed. It is a proven fact that during meditation the frequency of brain waves slow down from 13 -40 cycles per second to 7-12 . So the mind works at slower speed.. D: I think when you recall your meditation practise you will see it in way that the mind turns from a state of major body/speech/thought activity to the more passive state of observing ....calming action/performance in favor of 'contemplate /listen/examine' .. that shows another frequency H: What happens while meditating that is erroneously described as the mind slowing down is that calm and clarity and attention and mindfulness all increase enormously, and thus it is FAR easier to see what is what D: yes there is this increase ...not anymore sitting in a 'high speed train'.. the monkey mind not as usual jumping (in speed) from branch to branch D: there is no calm and clarity in a body/mind agitated .. and this I understand is clearly emphazised in both the Maha Satipatthana and Anapanasati Sutta as quoted. Over to you .. what do I miss ? ;-) H: I think that what you miss is what meditators typically mean when they speak of the mind slowing down. They literally mean that there is a subjective sense similar to that of seeing a film slowing down. I recall Joseph Goldstein, founder of the Insight Meditation Society, writing of the mindstream as like a sequence of film frames, with the frames "passing by" more slowly as meditation proceeds. D: I am not sure whether that is 'what meditators typically mean ' .. 1,840,000 Google links for 'meditation calm mind ' ...and we are talking about our individual experience H: But the mind that is observing and the mind that is observed is the same mind. There is no observer standing back, looking at the film. The film itself is doing the looking! The sense of slowing is a misinterpretation of merely being able to observe more easily due to heightened clarity. D: I remember we have here an issue not yet solved:' The film itself is doing the looking!' I do not follow you as the film represents to me the mental bodily phenomena (nama -rupa) which are conditioned by consciousness, which means being conscious of the phenomena. At high clarity however I assume -due to the unification- the mind becomes itself the film.. When those - who at least practise regularly for some time - have differences in understanding already in base issues, non- meditators may be encouraged in their view.. so let discuss that further ..comments by others also appreciated. with Metta Dieter ====================================== All that I can say is that whenever I have heard meditators speaking of mind slowing down while meditating, they have not just meant that calm pervades the mind, but what I said above about the mind-flow or citta-sequence literally slowing down as if there were an observer standing back and watching, and this makes no sense to me. I really have nothing more to add on this. (Sorry - really.) With metta, Howard #81605 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 23, 2008 11:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the present moment. nilovg Dear TG, Op 23-jan-2008, om 7:22 heeft TGrand458@... het volgende geschreven: > I see virtually all the Buddha's teachings in the Suttas to be near > equal in > importance, depending on one's development/level. They all have the > aim of > detaching the mind and overcoming suffering. I DO NOT see them as > having the > aim of "seeing realities in the present." ------ > N: How to realize detachment? Detachment from what? This is not > theory, it pertains to daily life. I quote again from my post today: How to see visible object as impermanent? To realize its characteristic as it appears now, not just visible object we read about. -------- > TG: Rather, the Buddha taught us to know "truths," not "realities." > Along with > the four Noble Truths, he taught important factors as impermanence and > nonself. The elements and aggregates which are impermanent, > afflicting, and > nonself, are all relative. They are not actual separate realities > that can be > pointed to. One can identify formations, yes. But these formations > are not > "realities," they are relativities. ------ N: Formations are fifty cetasikas. These are realities, or call it truths if you like. Generosity is a formation, it is sankhaarakkhandha. when it appears it can be object of awareness so that eventually it can be seen as it really is; impermanent, non- self. There can be detachment from the idea of my generosity. Don't we like the idea of 'I am generous'? -------- > TG: As a "relativity," they don't actually exist > in and of themselves. They are empty of "their own" content. ------ N: They are empty of self. But they can and should be known when they appear, so that ignorance can be eliminated. -------- > TG: And > attempting to identifying this or that "reality" is a process that > encourages a > delusional view by mentally establishing "self existing things"... > and thwarts > "conditionality insight" which actually does the opposite by > "turning the mind > away" from these phenomena. ------- N: KNowing dhammas as conditioned is the second stage of tender insight. This cannot arise without the first stage: distinguishing between the characteristics of nama and rupa. -------- N: You asked for suttas about the present moment: We read in the “Bhaddekaratta Sutta”, “A Single Excellent Night”(Middle Length Sayings,131, translated by the Ven. Bhikkhus Nyanamoli and Bodhi): "Let not a person revive the past Or on the future build his hopes; For the past has been left behind And the future has not been reached. Instead with insight let him see Each presently arisen state; Let him know that and be sure of it, Invincibly, unshakeably. Today the effort must be made; Tomorrow Death may come, who knows? No bargain with Mortality Can keep him and his hordes away, But one who dwells thus ardently, Relentlessly, by day, by night - It is he, the Peaceful Sage has said, Who has had a single excellent night." -------- To conclude: The Niddesa (Khuddhaka Nikaya), quoted by the Visuddhimagga (VIII, 39), often quoted here: In the Visuddhimagga (VIII, 39) we read about the shortness of the world: ...in the ultimate sense the life-moment of living beings is extremely short, being only as much as the occurrence of a single conscious moment. Just as a chariot wheel, when it is rolling, rolls (that is, touches the ground) only on one point of (the circumference of) its tyre, and, when it is at rest, rests only on one point, so too, the life of living beings lasts only for a single conscious moment. When that consciousness has ceased, the being is said to have ceased... Life, person, pleasure, pain–just these alone Join in one conscious moment that flicks by. Ceased khandhas of those dead or alive Are all alike, gone never to return. No (world is) born if (consciousness is) not Produced, when that is present, then it lives; When consciousness dissolves, the world is dead... --------- LIfe exists in only one moment, the present moment. Let us then understand the present moment. Nina. ______ #81606 From: "colette" Date: Wed Jan 23, 2008 8:51 am Subject: THE MIND OF NOWNESS ksheri3 Good Morning Group, I considered several things last night and came to the conclusion (if that could even in a person's wildest dreams be possible) came to the conclusion that: IT'S TIME TO HAVE SOME FUN. Well, in the process of deciding what "fun" is or could be I decided that I could use some assistance forrom another person, a peer, etc, or et al. Here we reach a difficulty since I don't have that many computer generated characters that can play with me in a way that will generate this feeling, this emotion, I term as fun. But then I thought for a second, maybe two seconds, and recalled that connie seems to have a playful side and we can relate. And so, thus begins a tiny little romp in the sandbox with my friend connie, IF, she cares to play. Remember now, children have , to learn how to hate and their parents & peers teach them how to HATE very precisely and very continuously. So, lets not put this on connie YET, lets just see how we play. Connie, I recall you making a clear indication that I may have been taking a Sarvastivadan point of view or maybe it was some other sect of the Buddhist community BUT since I am deep into this "session" right now I'll just "grasp" for the Sarvastivada. Here I come to the LALITAVISTARA and don't ya know, it seems our friends and colleagues of the Theravadan perspective have this "clinging" "desire" for "control" and for "orthodoxy" much like the sick pathetic monks that chose to discriminate against a group of monks by EXCLUDING THEM from the decision making process of just what goes in and what goes out of the Pali cannon. <...> My, my, it seems that I've brought up this "conditional" "concept" called orthodoxy. What a vile and vengeful beast to confront, this beast called, labeled, "conditioned", as orthodoxy. At this point in the script you should be ready to acquire the consciousness of Tilopa and strike me in the forehead with your sandal since I will have taken on the "Form" of Naropa, AND YOU MUST READ THE SCRIPT CORRECTLY THAT SPECIFICALLY SAYS: "No you don't get it, do you". (oh what fun)! Psst, I am an outcast, we are certain of that and so I am allowing you to acquire Tilopa so that I can acquire the student Naropa. Can we do a little spell checking here by recalling the words of Dzogchen Ponlop: "From the Essence point of view, all thes trappings of spirituality that we have -- the beautiful and sacred setup of the shrine, the cushions, the banners -- can become the very obstacles that prevent us from realinzing Mahamudra mind." THUS, our good, trusty, "stab you in the back" friend called "Orthodoxy" is well, rather as boring as any stuffed shirt in the 9-5 world of programming robots. Addressing our friend L. de La Vallee Poussin can't we find our robotic friends "Pre-occupied in establishing the history of Buddhism and in starting by fixing its origin, the orientalist abandon the path so intelligently opened up b y Burnouf; they relinquish the examination of the Northern sources, and take no account of them, they attach themselves passionately to the exegisis of the Southern Scriptures, which in appearance are more archaic and better documented." Here we see a "continuum" of DESCRIMINATION by and for the Orthodoxy which is totally and blatantly CONSUMED BY THEIR OWN PERSONAL GREED AND AVARICE -- in the study of Buddhism we certainly are propelled into the blatant equallity found in the Abhidharma's recognition of SLOTH AND TOPOR. And so, before flitting away to see how descrimition continually attacks me, I must ask if you've read anything concerning the Brahmlakoka where you will find "The Brahma world is the only world devoid of women (DhA.i.270); women who develop the jhanas in this world can be born among the Brahmaparisajja but not among the Mahabrahmas (VibhA.437f)." HOW do you feel about this EXCLUSIONARY "concept" <.....>? Memories, you know. toodles, colette #81607 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Jan 23, 2008 11:33 am Subject: Clever Presence: A Direct Hit! bhikkhu0 Friends The 4 Foundations of Awareness: Which Four? Only if & when the Noble Friend remains regarding any Body -own or other- simply as a heaped up group, just as a transient, compounded & complex form, only as a fragile, an accumulated & alien assemblage, while being alert, aware & clearly comprehending, then will he thereby effectively remove all urge & frustration from this world…!!! Only if & when a Noble Friend dwells observing any Feeling –from within or from without – simply as affective (over-)reaction, just an assigned response, only as a fleeting sensation, while being keen, fully conscious & continuously attentive, then will he thereby consequently eliminate all desire & discontent within this world…!!! Only if & when a Noble Friend abides viewing any Mood –present or remote- simply as a fancy thought, just as a made up mentality, only a conscious moment, while being ready, actively investigating & deliberately discriminating, then will he thereby naturally eradicate all longing & sadness inherent in this world…!!! Only if & when a Noble Friend lives interpreting any Phenomenon –internal or external – simply as a passing mental state, just as a mentally created & conditioned construct, only as a experienced appearance, merely as an imaginary reflected imprint, while being acutely awake, mindful & carefully understanding, then will he thereby overcome all attraction & repulsion rooted in this world…!!! A Direct Hit: Without any even single exception: Whoever in the distant & ancient past has Awakened to full Enlightenment; Whoever in the present, right now is Awakening to complete Enlightenment; Whoever in the near & far future will Awaken to perfect Enlightenment; All those have been freed, is being freed, will be freed through & by: Initiating, Cultivating & thoroughly Establishing these 4 Foundations of Awareness! The single & sole cause of really Being Present…!!! Check it! http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Crucial_Foundation.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/One_and_only_Way.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Four_Foundations_of_Awareness.htm Friendship is the Greatest * Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka :-) ..... #81608 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Jan 23, 2008 1:35 pm Subject: Alleged Slowing Down of Mind States .. The Monkey Mind Model.... dhammanusara Hi Dieter and Howard, - I find your discussion on 'mind speed' interesting. > >Dieter: -- slow /calm down the activity, the speed, in scientific terms the frequency the mind works in brain waves .. It is a proven fact that during meditation the frequency of brain waves slow down from 13 -40 cycles per second to 7-12 . So the mind works at slower speed.. -- the monkey mind not as usual jumping (in speed) from branch to branch ....................... >Howard: -- What happens while meditating that is erroneously described as the mind slowing down is that calm and clarity and attention and mindfulness all increase enormously, and thus it is FAR easier to see what is what. -- I recall Joseph Goldstein, founder of the Insight Meditation Society, writing of the mindstream as like a sequence of film frames, with the frames "passing by" more slowly as meditation proceeds. The sense of slowing is a misinterpretation of merely being able to observe more easily due to heightened clarity. ............ Tep: Dieter relies on science to define mind speed in terms of the frequency of brain waves. Howard, on the other hand, relates mind speed to ease of observation that is due to "heightened clarity" during a meditation. You both are right in two different aspects of the same situation. I think the main aspect is in Dieter's description of the "monkey mind" (from Dhp). As I understand it, the mind speed is measured by how fast or slow the monkey mind switches from one "branch" to another. Like Howard observes, during a good meditation there is significant heightened clarity in the meditation object's characteristics --that is because the monkey mind dwells longer on that object (it holds on to the present "branch"). The consequence is a slow down in its switching speed to another mind object and back again. A distracted mind quickly switches from one object to another as if it does not have time to rest -- working overtime, like Elaine said. Just ignore the above if it does not make sense to you. ;-) Your friend, Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > > > Hi, Dieter - > > In a message dated 1/23/2008 1:24:54 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > moellerdieter@... writes: > > Hi Howard, Robert, Alex , and all, > > repeating in order to get an understanding : > > 'Dieter, I haven't the slightest clue why you and Alex seem to think these > sutta quotes relate to claimed slowing down of mind states during > meditation. > I don't see that dealt with there in the slightest. What am I missing?' #81609 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Jan 23, 2008 1:54 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Full bodied determinism? A Clarification dhammanusara Hi Sarah, - There were several "knots" in our discussion over the long years here. Quite often, when you said north, I said south. When you said right understanding before siila, I said siila before right understanding, etc. Maybe one of these days we may be able untie the knots... I hope. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > >> S: So what's your comment, Tep:-))??? > > ......................... > > > > T: It is like an old record that has been played over and over > > again. > ... > S: That's exactly why I hadn't responded to James. But you asked for that > old record to be played one more time:-). Satisfied? > ........... T: I used to play old records over and over too -- they brought back some good memories. But nowadays I am no longer clinging so much to sa~n~na, knowing that they are empty, dukkha. Yes, I am satisfied with your answer. Thanks. ;-) Tep === #81610 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Jan 23, 2008 1:57 pm Subject: Alleged Slowing Down of Mind States (Re: [dsg] Respnse to Re: my parody .... buddhatrue Hi Howard, Dieter, et. al, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > ====================================== > All that I can say is that whenever I have heard meditators speaking of > mind slowing down while meditating, they have not just meant that calm > pervades the mind, but what I said above about the mind-flow or citta-sequence > literally slowing down as if there were an observer standing back and watching, > and this makes no sense to me. I really have nothing more to add on this. > (Sorry - really.) If you don't mind, I will throw my two cents in. During meditation the mind appears to slow down because it is concentrated on a specific object. Therefore the mind doesn't jump as quickly from object to object, so it becomes calm and appears to "slow down" its usual frantic activity. However, the mind doesn't literally slow down because it doesn't move. You could say that a running man moves faster than a walking man, but that has to do with movement. The mind doesn't "move" in that way. And "slow down" also has to do with time elapsing but the mind maintains the same time duration (time doesn't change for the mind in this realm). But, something else to consider is when the Buddha or other monks are able to visit alternative dimensions (like deva realms) where time elapses differently. Those visiting those realms are aware of this time difference somehow. I don't know what to think of that...it would take an Einstein to figure that one out! ;-)) Metta, James #81611 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Jan 23, 2008 2:19 pm Subject: Personalism/James (Re: [dsg] Re: Full bodied determinism?) buddhatrue Hi Howard, I don't like the way you changed this subject heading. It sounds too much like "Getting personal with James" ;-)) just kidding --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > -------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I couldn't care less about various positions. I am expressing my > understanding. I actively and regularly engage in introspection, in cittanupassana > and dhammanupassana, and this is what I "see." It is clear to me. Of course, I > don't say that I KNOW this, for I can't be sure that I'm right, but this IS > how I see the matter regardless of the perspective of ANYONE else. James: Well, you go boy!! ;-)) > As for exactly what I said here that you quoted above, it is true! While > we see sights and hear sounds, we do not see collections of sights, or hear > collections of sounds - we mentally cognize them. James: I have no problem with that, but just because something is known only through the mind door doesn't make it any less real (which I think you agree with, not sure at this point). This thread started because I stated that decisions are made by people, not by dhammas. The reason I say that is because decisions are a complex matter which involve many outside and inside conditions for the individual, not just isolated dhammas. People can take the five aggregates as self; they can take some of the aggregates as self; they can also take isolated dhammas as self; they can take the four elements as self; they can take Nibbana as self- there is no limit to what people can take as self. But, what they take as self they assign two qualities to it (consciously or not): This is lasting (permanent); and This is absolutely controllable. Metta, James #81612 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Jan 23, 2008 2:25 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Outline of Purification of View V.4 kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Larry & all*, > <...> > *All, Larry has kindly invited (hmm, read 'gently pressured') me to run a > set of posts on the next chapter/visuddhi ("Purification of Overcoming > Doubt"). If he kindly invites you to lead one of the other chapters, > please consider it a way of sharing his merit:). Also, if anyone would > like to volunteer to assist him in this, I know he'll be glad to hear from > you. You just need a copy of Visuddhimagga and a few ideas about what you > consider 'practice' to be..... > Hi Larry, Sarah and all, I have often thought we should experiment with the way these specialist threads are run. Couldn't we, for example, try something along the lines of a classroom? People could enrol in the thread, and then be expected to take part just as they would in class. Someone with a slightly bossy personality could be in charge (lots of names spring to mind) (perhaps we could take turns) and they could say things like, "Phil, you haven't contributed lately, what do you think about this?" Or, "Howard and James, are you talking off-list? Perhaps you'd like to tell the rest of the class what you find so amusing!" What do you think? :-) Ken H #81613 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Jan 23, 2008 2:26 pm Subject: Re: Full bodied determinism? .. baalo or pandita? .. dhammanusara Hi KenH (Phil), - Although Phil has given you his friendly and non-argumentative reply, still there are some issues you made that should be directly confronted. First of all, let me list your comments to Phil along with my questions/comments as follows. [KenH's comments are numbered:] 1. Abhidhamma students know that any activity (in the conventional sense) actually occurs over the course of trillions of cittas. Some of those cittas will be wholesome, some unwholesome, some vipaka and some purely functional. To say that any conventional activity was wholesome or unwholesome would be a gross generalisation. T: Not every activity in the real world is explainable by "trillions of cittas". What is wrong with the conventional discussion about wholesome/unwholesome activities? 2. Lust, hatred and ignorance are unwholesome whilst non-lust, non- hatred and non-ignorance are wholesome. T: Since you do not explain lust, hatred and ignorance by means of "trillions of cittas", isn't the above remark of yours a "gross generalisation"? 3. The Abidhammikas say wise actions are neither wise nor foolish. They are conventional - mere concepts - and, as such, they have no real (ultimate) characteristics of any kind. T: I do not see anything wrong with the conventional speaking of a person, or his actions (cetana is kamma), as wise/foolish. The suttas freely talk about fools, wise men and their actions(kammas) too. Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi Phil (Tep and all), > > ----- > <. . .> > Ph: > Of course, "bad conduct...of mind, good conduct of mind" can be > interpreted in a very broad way, so people can say that if there is�@ > subtle clinging to self (not speaking here of unforgivably strong > self-interest) behind an apparently good deed, it is in fact a bad > deed (akusala) technically speaking. > --------------- #81614 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jan 23, 2008 9:38 am Subject: Re: Alleged Slowing Down of Mind States (Re: [dsg] Respnse to Re: my parody .... upasaka_howard Hi, James - In a message dated 1/23/2008 4:57:55 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@... writes: If you don't mind, I will throw my two cents in. During meditation the mind appears to slow down because it is concentrated on a specific object. Therefore the mind doesn't jump as quickly from object to object, so it becomes calm and appears to "slow down" its usual frantic activity. ============================= In focused, absorptive meditation, one ignores (or gives minimal attention to) any mental content except repetitions of "the same" object - in & out breath, a repeated manta, or "the same" kasina, for example. In that case, there seems to be no changing of object at all. In "insight meditation" and especially in what I consider the characteristic Buddhist meditation, in-tandem, samatha-vipassana meditation, the "monkey mind" is gotten rid of not by attempting to stick with a particular object, but by being satisfied with whatever is there at the moment, not* straining for anything else or consciously attempting to prolong or repeat what is there at the moment, but simply letting arise whatever arises, seeing it clearly for what it is, and then letting it go. This produces calm and clarity. These, especially the clarity, make it seem that "things have slowed down," but I think that seeming just ain't so! ;-) With metta, Howard * The clear seeing of a wholesome state and the recognition of it for what it is naturally promotes further wholesome states, and the clear seeing of an unwholesome state and the recognition of it for what it is naturally lessens further unwholesome states. This guarding of the senses comes about effortlessly as part of the process. #81615 From: "Alex" Date: Wed Jan 23, 2008 2:54 pm Subject: Re: THE MIND OF NOWNESS truth_aerator Hi Colette, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "colette" wrote: > > Good Morning Group, I must ask if you've read anything concerning the > Brahmlakoka where you will find "The Brahma world is the only world > devoid of women (DhA.i.270); women who develop the jhanas in this > world can be born among the Brahmaparisajja but not among the > Mahabrahmas (VibhA.437f)." HOW do you feel about this > EXCLUSIONARY "concept" <.....>? > > > Memories, you know. > > toodles, > colette > Read what the BUDDHA has said rather then the commentaries (which often lead of base and may be Mara's invention). The above is bull, there were lay anagamin women who would be reborn in high Pure Abodes, which are MUCH higher than MahaBrahman of the 1st Jhanic plane. Lots of Metta, Alex #81616 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jan 23, 2008 9:58 am Subject: Re: Personalism/James (Re: [dsg] Re: Full bodied determinism?) upasaka_howard Hi, James - In a message dated 1/23/2008 5:20:18 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@... writes: Hi Howard, I don't like the way you changed this subject heading. It sounds too much like "Getting personal with James" ;-)) just kidding --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > -------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I couldn't care less about various positions. I am expressing my > understanding. I actively and regularly engage in introspection, in cittanupassana > and dhammanupassana, and this is what I "see." It is clear to me. Of course, I > don't say that I KNOW this, for I can't be sure that I'm right, but this IS > how I see the matter regardless of the perspective of ANYONE else. James: Well, you go boy!! ;-)) ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: LOLOL! --------------------------------------------------------- > As for exactly what I said here that you quoted above, it is true! While > we see sights and hear sounds, we do not see collections of sights, or hear > collections of sounds - we mentally cognize them. James: I have no problem with that, but just because something is known only through the mind door doesn't make it any less real (which I think you agree with, not sure at this point). --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I think it's "reality" in the sense of degree of self-existence is less than that of namas and rupas. It's reality is more "derivative" in that it is a collection dependent not only on prior conditions and co-occurring conditions, but also on it's parts. It is not an individual phenomenon, but a complex. It is real as an aggregation, but not as an individual phenomenon. When it is known through the mind door as a real and existing aggregation, there is no problem at all. That is the reality, and it is a correct knowing. But when it is known as an individual, that is not the reality, and it is an incorrect knowing. ------------------------------------------------------------- This thread started because I stated that decisions are made by people, not by dhammas. The reason I say that is because decisions are a complex matter which involve many outside and inside conditions for the individual, not just isolated dhammas. ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: That's very clear, James, and I agree with you. The decisions and the making of them are themselves aggregations. --------------------------------------------------------- People can take the five aggregates as self; they can take some of the aggregates as self; they can also take isolated dhammas as self; they can take the four elements as self; they can take Nibbana as self- there is no limit to what people can take as self. But, what they take as self they assign two qualities to it (consciously or not): This is lasting (permanent); and This is absolutely controllable. ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Very good! -------------------------------------------------------- Metta, James ============================== With metta, Howard #81617 From: "Alex" Date: Wed Jan 23, 2008 3:47 pm Subject: Alleged Slowing Down of Mind States truth_aerator Hello all, It is wonderful that on DSG there is finally a discussion about... here it goes... MEDITATION! .... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > ============================= >In focused, absorptive meditation, one ignores (or gives minimal > attention to) any mental content except repetitions of "the same" object - in & out >>> Actually, in Jhana the hindrances are not present and thus there is no need to ignore them. There simply isn't a desire for sensuality that must be ignored. The distractions if they do happen don't pull you out from your centering object. >>> >In "insight meditation" and especially in what I consider the > characteristic Buddhist meditation, in-tandem, samatha-vipassana meditation, the "monkey mind" is gotten rid of not by attempting to stick with a particular object, but by being satisfied with whatever is there at the moment, not* straining for anything else or consciously attempting to prolong or repeat what is there at the moment, >>>> The monkey mind is gotten rid by temporarily removing the causes, the "gasoline" so to speak. Through Joy, Piti-Sukha, one is able to reach the contentment where temporarily there isn't causes for arising of restless mental states. >>> but simply letting arise whatever arises, seeing it clearly > for what it is, and then letting it go. This produces calm and clarity. These, especially the clarity, make it seem that "things have slowed down," but I think that seeming just ain't so! ;-) > > With metta, > Howard >>>> When we talk about slowing down, we need to make sure that we are on a same page. How exactly do you define this slowing down? In deep meditations many things such as restless mind, or monkey mind are not present. The deeper one goes, the less mental content (and higher the happiness/peace) is. The mind simply doesn't have as much branches to latch onto, thus it doesn't have much area to "move". The mind lets go off painful and flawed states that caused agitation, irritation and other akusala states. For example in the 1st (Ecstasy) Jhana there are: directed thought, evaluation, rapture, pleasure, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness,2 desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention =16 in the 4th (Jhana) Ecstasy: feeling of equanimity, neither pleasure nor pain; an unconcern due to serenity of awareness;3 singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness, desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention = 15 In the Base of Infinite Space: the perception of the dimension of the infinitude of space, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness, desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention = 13 In the Nirodha Samapati: 0 states while you are in there. The mind isn't changing at all. Furthermore there is obviously a qualitative difference between different stages of meditation. The mind stops labelling this or that, there is less and less "desire" and "fuel" for change. And Dieter made a very good point about observation of Brainwaves. Studies have been done and they have shown that "brainwaves" do slow down in certain meditations. ---------- BETA - 13-30 cycles per second - awaking awareness, extroversion, concentration, logical thinking - active conversation. A debater would be in high beta. A person making a speech, or a teacher, or a talk show host would all be in beta when they are engaged in their work. ALPHA - 7-13 cycles per second - relaxation times, non-arousal, meditation, hypnosis THETA - 4-7 cycles per second - day dreaming, dreaming, creativity, meditation, paranormal phenomena, out of body experiences, ESP, shamanic journeys. DELTA - 1.5-4 or less cycles per second - deep dreamless sleep http://www.crystalinks.com/medbrain.html If the above are correct, then 4th Jhana would be in the THETA stage and Formless Attainments in Delta (or low Theta), which actually fits quite nicely with what happens. Of course, super attention is present. 0Hz is probably equivalent to Nirodha Samapatti - deeper than Delta (deep dreamless sleep). Lots of Metta, Alex #81618 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Jan 23, 2008 4:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Outline of Purification of View V.4 lbidd2 Hi Sarah, Sarah: "Dhammayatana (mental data base) consists of all subtle rupas - i.e all rupas other than the 7 rupas experienced through the senses and the five sense bases. In other words, 16 subtle rupas, cetasikas and in some contexts nibbana. It never includes 'all mental objects', i.e all arammana experienced through the mind." Larry: Thanks for this correction. I knew there was something that overlapped. Eye base etc. is also included in dhammayatana which is translated as mental-object base in CMA, so for purposes of including all bases it isn't necessary to include the 5 sense bases twice and of course nibbana isn't included in this instance. Larry #81619 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Jan 23, 2008 4:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Outline of Purification of View V.5 lbidd2 Hi Nina, Is my understanding of prompted consciousness correct? Larry: "he should not give up but should again and again comprehend, give attention to, discern, and define materiality only." This is a 'prompt' that is intended to prompt a prompted consciousness (sankhara citta). One can also prompt oneself to give attention again and again. Not every prompt is successful, but when it is it results in a prompted consciousness, in this case an attending plagued by afflictions which gradually becomes clear insight (pa~n~naa), like muddy water that settles down and becomes clear and thus able to discern even the most subtle mental state. Larry #81620 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Jan 23, 2008 4:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Siila develops pa~n~na ..(was Re: Outline of Purification of View V.1) lbidd2 Hi Tep, Tep: "How does "right understanding" develop the five precepts in a worldling?" Larry: If I say don't kill, killing is bad and you agree that it is bad, it could be because you understand something. Or you could agree just because you like me. If you understand something then there is virtue. If you don't really understand that killing is bad but you refrain from killing nevertheless, then you don't create bad kamma but I don't know if you are really developing sila. Larry #81621 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Jan 23, 2008 4:35 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Outline of Purification of View V.4 lbidd2 Hi Ken, Ken: "Couldn't we, for example, try something along the lines of a classroom?" Larry: Okay, I'll start. Tell me all about prompted consciousness, Ken. Larry #81622 From: han tun Date: Wed Jan 23, 2008 4:42 pm Subject: Perfections Corner (78) hantun1 Dear All, This is the presentation in installment of The Perfections Leading to Enlightenment by Ajahn Sujin Boriharnwanaket; and translated by Nina van Gorkom. http://www.zolag.co.uk/ - Chapter 6: The Perfection of Patience (continuation) If we are able to be patient, anger cannot arise, there cannot be wrong speech, not even the slightest amount. We shall not utter angry words. As we read, patience is “the adornment of those capable of vanquishing the foe.” We may well adorn ourselves profusely with things that beautify, but if our action and speech are evil, we are not beautiful. The absence of anger, patience, is the adornment of those capable of conquering others; with this kind of adornment one is beautiful and does not need other kinds of adornment. However, if patience is lacking, one’s action and speech are ugly. Patience is “the strength of recluses and brahmins”. It is the attainment of strength (bala sampadaa) of a tranquil person. A tranquil or calm person does not have any disturbance or trouble with regard to anybody, and thus calm which is freedom from akusala is the strength of recluses and brahmins. Patience is “a stream of water extinguishing the fire of anger.” If we are angry, anger can be overcome by the perfection of patience. At such a moment we accumulate conditions for refraining more easily from akusala. Patience is “the basis for acquiring a good reputation, a mantra for quelling the poisonous speech of evil people.” When we are angry and we utter evil speech, we ourselves are evil people. Whoever utters evil speech is an evil person. Patience is a mantra, a medicine against poison, namely speech of an evil person. Patience is “the supreme source of constancy in those established in restraint.” Patience is the nature of those with supreme pa~n~naa. In order to develop pa~n~naa it is necessary to have endless patience: patience to listen to the Dhamma and to consider it in all details so as to understand the deep meaning of the teachings and their benefit. In that way we shall know that listening is not enough, that we should also apply the teachings. If someone wishes to have pa~n~naa he should first of all have endurance and accumulate the perfection of patience. To be continued. Han #81623 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Jan 23, 2008 4:49 pm Subject: Vism.XVII,233 Vism.XVII,234 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga), Ch. XVII [(viii) Craving] 233. As regards the clause 'With feeling as condition, craving': Six cravings, for things visible And all the rest, are treated here; And each of these, when it occurs, Can in one of three modes appear. 234. Six kinds of craving are shown in the analysis of this clause [in the Vibha"nga] as 'visible-data craving, sound, odour, flavour, tangible-data, and mental-data craving' (Vbh.136), called after their objects, as a son is called after his father 'banker's son', brahman's son'. Each of these six kinds of craving is reckoned threefold according to its mode of occurrence as craving for sense desires, craving for becoming, or craving for non-becoming. ********************** 233. vedanaapaccayaata.nhaapadavitthaarakathaa vedanaapaccayaa ta.nhaapade -- ruupata.nhaadibhedena, cha ta.nhaa idha diipitaa. ekekaa tividhaa tattha, pavattaakaarato mataa.. 234. imasmi.m hi pade se.t.thiputto braahma.naputtoti pitito naamavasena putto viya ``ruupata.nhaa. sadda... gandha... rasa... pho.t.thabba... dhammata.nhaa''ti (vibha0 232) aaramma.nato naamavasena vibha"nge cha ta.nhaa diipitaa. taasu pana ta.nhaasu ekekaa ta.nhaa pavattiaakaarato kaamata.nhaa, bhavata.nhaa, vibhavata.nhaati eva.m tividhaa mataa. #81624 From: han tun Date: Wed Jan 23, 2008 5:00 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Corner (77) hantun1 Dear Sarah and All, In another thread Sarah wrote: S: After writing this, I also remembered the following reminder on patience and disturbance in an extract from "Perfections" which Han recently posted: >"As we read, patience is “the unimpeded weapon of the good”: akusala can be destroyed when one is righteous. When patience arises we have no disturbance, because khanti, patience, cannot harm righteous people. “Patience is the unimpeded weapon of the good in the development of noble qualities, for it dispels anger, the opposite of all such qualities, without residue". "< S: I find the reminder helpful that "when patience arises we have no disturbance" . So very true and helpful to remember! -------------------- Han: Thank you very much, Sarah, for your kind interest, and for reading those installments on Patience. There are more such useful reminders in my succeeding post: Perfections Corner (78). Respectfully, Han #81625 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Jan 23, 2008 5:00 pm Subject: Re: Full bodied determinism? .. baalo or pandita? .. kenhowardau Hi Tep, As you say, Phil's reply was friendly and non-argumentative. I had left some loose ends that he could have caught me out on, but he chose not to. :-) ---------------- T: > Although Phil has given you his friendly and non-argumentative reply, still there are some issues you made that should be directly confronted. First of all, let me list your comments to Phil along with my questions/comments as follows. [KenH's comments are numbered:] 1. Abhidhamma students know that any activity (in the conventional sense) actually occurs over the course of trillions of cittas. Some of those cittas will be wholesome, some unwholesome, some vipaka and some purely functional. To say that any conventional activity was wholesome or unwholesome would be a gross generalisation. T: Not every activity in the real world is explainable by "trillions of cittas". What is wrong with the conventional discussion about wholesome/unwholesome activities? ------------------ Firstly, I disagree when you say 'not every activity <. . .> is explainable by "trillions of cittas."' Isn't that what the Dhamma is all about? "When we are walking, we are to know there are really only namas and rupas. When we are getting dressed in the morning, we are to know there are namas and rupas . . . etc., etc." Everything - including every activity - is to be known as it ultimately is. Secondly, there is nothing wrong with conventional discussions about wholesome and unwholesome activities *so long as we do not claim they are what the Buddha taught!* There is nothing wrong with discussing (for example) the rightness or wrongness of Japanese whaling in the Pacific - provided we don't pretend it is inherently (i.e., in the absolute sense) right or wrong. Only dhammas can be inherently right or wrong. That was the big, cosmos-shaking revelation that the Buddha pronounced to the world: ultimately there are no people, no places, no conventional courses of action - there are only namas and rupas. -------------------------- T: > 2. Lust, hatred and ignorance are unwholesome whilst non-lust, non- hatred and non-ignorance are wholesome. T: Since you do not explain lust, hatred and ignorance by means of "trillions of cittas", isn't the above remark of yours a "gross generalisation"? -------------------------- With respect, Tep, you seem to have misunderstood what I wrote. Maybe that's because I was butting in on your conversation without really knowing what you were talking about. :-) My point was that the nature of unwholesomeness in the ultimate sense (citta with lobha, for example) was the same as the nature of unwholesomeness in the conventional sense (sex, drugs and rock 'n roll, for example). That's why the Buddha was able to use conventional language so often in his teaching. To a certain extent, namas and rupas can be described in the same language that is used to describe conventional things. As I said, you have misunderstood what I was saying. Now it's my turn to not understand. In what way as my comment a gross generalisation? ----------------------- T: > 3. The Abidhammikas say wise actions are neither wise nor foolish. They are conventional - mere concepts - and, as such, they have no real (ultimate) characteristics of any kind. T: I do not see anything wrong with the conventional speaking of a person, or his actions (cetana is kamma), as wise/foolish. The suttas freely talk about fools, wise men and their actions(kammas) too. ---------------------- My comment has suffered in transcription! :-) I didn't say wise actions were neither wise nor foolish, I said conventionally known actions were neither wise nor foolish. Is it wise to ram your boat into the side of a Japanese whaler? Or is it, in the ultimate sense, neither wise nor foolish? Isn't it just a story to explain the passing of trillions of different cittas? Yes, the suttas talk about wise "men" and their "activities" in daily life, but they must be understood in a very special way. Every word of every sutta points in some way to the nature of conditioned dhammas. To see those words in any other way would be a terrible waste of the unique, incomparable Dhamma. We can hear conventional stories about good and evil anywhere, any time. Ken H #81626 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Jan 23, 2008 5:28 pm Subject: Re: Outline of Purification of View V.4 kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@... wrote: > > Hi Ken, > > Ken: "Couldn't we, for example, try something along the lines of a > classroom?" > > Larry: Okay, I'll start. Tell me all about prompted consciousness, Ken. > > !!!!!!! Thanks, Larry, all jokes aside this is exactly the sort of thing I was thinking about. Quite honestly, I have to go out now. We are expecting guests tonight and I have to buy provisions. But I will get back to this a.s.a.p. I don't want to give the impression I am despertely looking back through the thread and the texts books etc. Although, maybe just a quick look . . . Ken H #81627 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Jan 23, 2008 6:28 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Outline of Purification of View V.1 lbidd2 Hi Sarah, Sarah: "Like Nina, I'd like to stress the importance of understanding Abhidhamma as part of our day right now, rather than stressing 'book knowledge'. We can read and memorise the entire Patthana and not have even a beginning of pariyatti if there's no comprehension of namas and rupas appearing now as anatta." Larry: No one is going to discern all 81 kinds of mundane consciousness unless they read the book (or hear the dhamma talk). And even then they would have to recognize those particular categories in experience and probably go looking for some of them. Consciousness could be categorized in innumerable ways, there could be 17 kinds or 500 kinds. What is fear of heights? Answer: not in the book. This insight is based specifically on chapters 14, 15, and 16 in The Path of Purification. You might call it a test, or a dissertation. Above all, it is the _practice_ of insight. Larry #81629 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Jan 23, 2008 7:13 pm Subject: [dsg] Siila develops pa~n~na .. Corrected .. dhammanusara Hi Larry (and all), - [Please ignore the copy that was posted a few second ago. Thanks.] Thank you for the reply. > Tep: "How does "right understanding" develop the five precepts in a > worldling?" > > Larry: If I say don't kill, killing is bad and you agree that it is bad, it could be because you understand something. Or you could agree just because you like me. If you understand something then there is virtue. > If you don't really understand that killing is bad but you refrain from killing nevertheless, then you don't create bad kamma but I don't know if you are really developing sila. > Tep: There are several levels of understanding. The simple, intellectual understanding that killing is bad does not develop siila. It is not yet a "right understanding" (samma-ditthi) of a noble disciple as defined in MN 9. "When, friends, a noble disciple understands the unwholesome, the root of the unwholesome, the wholesome, and the root of the wholesome, in that way he is one of right view, whose view is straight, who has perfect confidence in the Dhamma, and has arrived at this true Dhamma". [MN 9 Sammaditthi] Tep: On the other hand, I don't think it is possible that right understanding (right view, discernment, wisdom) can be developed in a non-ariyan monk without virtue as a supporting factor. Sambodhi Sutta (AN 9.1: Self Awakening), for example, states that being virtuous, following Patimokka and the training rules, is the first level of the monkhood. The right understanding of the ariya savaka (noble disciple) comes later. (1) "Monks, when a monk has admirable friends, admirable companions, admirable comrades, it is to be expected that he will be virtuous, will dwell restrained in accordance with the Patimokkha, consummate in his behavior & sphere of activity, and will train himself, having undertaken the training rules, seeing danger in the slightest faults. (2) "When a monk has admirable friends, admirable companions, admirable comrades, it is to be expected that he will get to hear at will, easily & without difficulty, talk that is truly sobering and conducive to the opening of awareness, i.e., talk on modesty, on contentment, on seclusion, on non-entanglement, on arousing persistence, on virtue, on concentration, on discernment, on release, and on the knowledge & vision of release. (3) "When a monk has admirable friends, admirable companions, admirable comrades, it is to be expected that he will keep his persistence aroused for abandoning unskillful mental qualities, and for taking on skillful mental qualities -- steadfast, solid in his effort, not shirking his duties with regard to skillful mental qualities. (4) "When a monk has admirable friends, admirable companions, admirable comrades, it is to be expected that he will be discerning, endowed with discernment of arising & passing away -- noble, penetrating, leading to the right ending of stress. [end quote] .............. I just thought you might want to know. Tep === #81630 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Wed Jan 23, 2008 7:22 pm Subject: Re: Vism.XVII,233 Vism.XVII,234 nichiconn Path of Purity, p.681 As regards the verse "Conditoned by feeling, craving comes to pass": - Six cravings of matter and other kinds Have here been set forth. From the manner of Procedure, each is held to be threefold. For as to this verse, in Vibha"nga {p.380} six cravings have been shown by way of the nomenclature derived from the object as craving of matter, of sound, of smell, of taste, of touch, of idea, just as a son derives his name from his father as Se.t.thiputta, Braahma.naputta. Each of these cravings from the manner of proceeding is considered to be threefold as craving for sense-desire, craving for existence, craving for non-existence {ibid., 365}. #81631 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Jan 23, 2008 7:42 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Siila develops pa~n~na ..(was Re: Outline of Purification of View V.1) lbidd2 Hi Tep, Thanks for the many quotations. I didn't intend to suggest that mundane understanding is the fruition of the development of sila. I wanted to point out that there was elementary wisdom even at the very beginning. Therefore wisdom is necessary, at all levels, for the development of sila. Larry #81632 From: "glenjohnann" Date: Wed Jan 23, 2008 7:50 pm Subject: Re: ascetical practices. was: Lessons in Detachment, glenjohnann --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > > Hi Sarah and all Sarah, can you elaborate on what you mean by the last sentence below: "Accumulated wisdom at this time ....." Particularly "... were supporting conditions by natural decisive support condition" Thanks, Ann > > > ... > *S: Conditions for kusala vipaka again. Some might say that the intention > to walk for almsfood was the 'cause' for the kusala vipaka, but of course > past kamma was the main course. Acccumulated wisdom at this time and the > various cittas involved were supporting conditions by natural decisive > support condition, as I see it. > > Thanks for discussing this point further. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ========= > #81633 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Jan 23, 2008 8:22 pm Subject: Re: Outline of Purification of View V.4 kenhowardau Hi Larry, ----- L: >Tell me all about prompted consciousness, Ken. ----- Prompted consciousness is accompanied by strong kamma. Unprompted consciousness is accompanied by weak kamma. I suppose (not sure) this distinguishes between kamma patha and other (lesser) kinds of kamma. (?) I am not convinced by your theory, Larry, that the quote you referred to can be regarded as a prompt: "He should not give up but should again and again comprehend, give attention to, discern, and define materiality only." (Vis. XVIII para 15) I think that piece of Dhamma can be heard and understood by strong (unprompted) citta just as easily as it can be heard and understood by weak (prompted) citta. It all depends on conditions. Ken H #81634 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Jan 23, 2008 9:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Outline of Purification of View V.4 lbidd2 Hi Ken, Ken: "I am not convinced by your theory, Larry, that the quote you referred to can be regarded as a prompt: "He should not give up but should again and again comprehend, give attention to, discern, and define materiality only." (Vis. XVIII para 15) "I think that piece of Dhamma can be heard and understood by strong (unprompted) citta just as easily as it can be heard and understood by weak (prompted) citta. It all depends on conditions." Larry: It depends on the subsequent action. If the subsequent action is to again and again give attention to materiality only, then that giving attention is prompted. If the subsequent action is to disagree with that line of action, then that disagreeing is unprompted because no one said "you should do this (i.e. disagree)". You are right that it could go either way. Do you agree or disagree with Buddhaghosa? Larry #81635 From: "gazita2002" Date: Wed Jan 23, 2008 9:25 pm Subject: ven. pannabahulo gazita2002 Hello Ven Pannabahulo, -- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "pannabahulo" wrote: > > Dear Sarah, > > Thank you for the further information as to why monks cannot attend > the KK sessions.I was hoping to meet Nina and her husband but must > just hope that that is still posible.I admit that I was very saddened > over the KK issue;but it makes me realise that there is a massive > divide between monks and nuns on the one hand, and lay people on the > other,even over issues relating to the sharing of Dhamma. ....... What I will almost certainly end up doing is go to the Saturday group > on 16 Feb before the seminars start.That way I can be sure of being > able to ask some of the questions I have. And then I will decide > whether or not to stay for the 3 day seminar.Your AIDL makes perfect > sense to me; the seminars do not". azita: as I am currently in Bkk and caught up with some of the Sat. group just yesterday, i was told that you may attend these sessions in Feb. Looking forward to meeting with you again. I personally find these sessions very helpful, even if a little 'technical' at times. I feel as if there is little time and opportunity to hear the true dhamma and therefore perservere with some of the difficult stuff. The Buddha did state that the path was a difficult one. I dont think there are many of the lotuses which grow up and out of the water, in this day and age. Listen and attend before ' the doors to the deathless close ' B.B. and 'we' are plunged into aeons of darkness. patience, courage and good cheer, azita #81636 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jan 23, 2008 11:36 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ascetical practices. was: Lessons in Detachment, sarahprocter... Hi Ann, Always good to see your pertinent questions and also, looking forward to seeing you again in April! --- glenjohnann wrote: > Sarah, can you elaborate on what you mean by the last sentence > below: "Accumulated wisdom at this time ....." > Particularly "... were supporting conditions by natural decisive > support condition" .... S: The discussion was about kamma and vipaka. My comment wasn't clear. What I had meant to say was that many conditions support kusala kamma. The main one of these is natural decisive support condition which is the largest condition, including all tendencies or accumulations. Without the supporting accumulations, there would not have been any kusala kamma to bring the present results. Also, for kusala vipaka to occur, there are many supporting conditions involved. For example, if someone is shot, the death consciousness is vipaka, a result of past kamma. However, many other factors clearly 'support' the arising of that death consciousness. Nothing occurs as a result of one condition acting alone. So why were there good and bad bodily experiences for the Bodhisatta when he followed the ascetical practices and later abandoned them? Just as for us, they were according to past kamma. However, present accumulations may also be decisive. For example, if someone goes on a hunger strike, such intentions and acts may play a role. When the Bodhisatta was 'trying' too hard, over-exerting, there were conditions for some akusala vipaka. When he realised the Middle Way, there were conditions for some kusala vipaka. All very complex... I'll be glad to hear yours or anyone else's comments. Metta, Sarah ======== #81637 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jan 23, 2008 11:41 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Lessons in Detachment, Ch 5, no 2. sarahprocter... Dear Scott, Ann (& Nina), On this point again, --- Scott Duncan wrote: > Do you think the > Buddha's decision to strive is to be understood as being his conscious > decision to willfully direct his effort? Or was it a case of wrong > striving arising and leading to the behaviour described? ... S: I just remembered K.Sujin gave the example of how there may be a subtle trying to be aware now because of the deep-rooted tendency. It's not right, because the viriya is not balanced - there's an over-striving as a result of silabbataparamasa, only eradicated by the sotapanna. However, as I wrote yesterday, not wrong view involved. I'll look forward to any of your further comments. Ann & Nina may remember the conversation too. Metta, Sarah ========= #81638 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jan 23, 2008 11:52 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Full bodied determinism? sarahprocter... Hi Howard (& Ven P.). I know you got a mixed reception to your kind message. I just wished to say that this last paragraph worked well for me and I think you made some very good points in it: --- upasaka@... wrote: > If an approach to Dhamma leads to the thought that nothing can be accomplished and leads to distress, that approach is wrong, Sir. The fact that water is H2O doesn't make water disappear, but merely determines how water acts and is perceived. And that our conventional actions reduce to interrelated multitudes of namas and rupas doesn't make the actions nothing at all. In fact, it simply clarifies their nature. The reality of anatta & su~n~nata determines a middle way and not a species of nihilism. ... S: I'd just add that I think it is *the understanding* of anatta which determines a middle way.... Metta & appreciation, Sarah ======== #81639 From: "Sukinder" Date: Thu Jan 24, 2008 12:34 am Subject: Respnse to Re: my parody and the reasons Part 2. sukinderpal Hi Howard (*Phil), Sorry for the delay in responding. Actually I was debating whether there was any need to respond at all since after all for the first time, you expressed so much agreement. ;-) Let's then take this as being more like an elaboration on the last post…!! =================== > *And I thought Howard was making a wrong comparison. :-/ Others have > also made similar comparisons, some even to propose that scientists > and other serious academics were getting a whiff of Anatta when they > think in terms of `impersonal phenomena'. But this is neither being > close to the understanding of Anatta or for the matter anything Dhamma > and it leads me to question the understanding of those who make such > comparison. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > You have misunderstood me, I believe, Sukin. I was only giving a > theoretical analogy as a means to clarify the possibility of functioning at the > level of convention while understanding at the level of reality. There is an > enormous difference between a scientist's theories and the actual knowing of > not-self/no-self. One fundamental aspect of the difference is that of theorizing > versus direct knowing with wisdom. Sukin: Also while the descriptions given in Dhamma / Abhidhamma point to "realities" with distinguishing characteristics; those of the scientist are `concepts' only. Therefore, when we study the Dhamma we know to distinguish concept from reality and this when developed can lead to the direct experience of the latter. The scientist on the other hand is encouraged only to refine his `conceptual knowledge', therefore as far as knowing the difference between these two, his position is not in anyway better than anyone else. Besides, as he believes he is `getting to the truth of things', this will likely make it harder to accept what the Dhamma has to say. ======================== Howard: > A deeper difference, IMO, is that the > realizing of tilakkhana has nothing to do, itself, with theory, though, of > course, correct teachings of the Buddhadhamma pondered deeply are crucial > conditions for liberating wisdom. Sukin: And indispensable, how else after all could one ever arrive at the truth of the Tilakkhana if not from hearing about it from the Buddha. Moreover, given that to practice / experience is a matter of panna arising to know a reality, how could this ever be expected of any scientist. ======================== > People are attracted to different ways of `making sense of the world' > and become attached to it. The idea of `impersonal phenomena' is one > such way on which I too at one time indulged in. But the fact of > Anatta is to be "understood" and not to merely be taken as an idea to > play around with or applied to phenomena "out there". > ------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I completely agree! > ----------------------------------------------------- > Having `conceived' the scientist then goes on to try and make sense of > `things' based on that initial misperception. Likewise, the Buddhist > having conceived, he tries to apply the `theory' of Anatta, but only > when convenient. > ------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > But even there, the Buddhist has the advantage. *Sukin: Yes, I know that I sometimes judge `Buddhists' too harshly. Also I'm reminded at this moment about Phil's insistence on how people can benefit from a more superficial understanding of what the Buddha taught. Yes, I'm happy that they do! However I'm certain that the Buddha didn't at any time, wanted any of audience to understand anything at the level of Me, Mine or I. This would go against the purpose of his Teachings. Therefore even though I'm happy that people come to appreciate other forms of kusala, even if just a little bit more, through the Dhamma, I would not want to encourage any self view which invariably arises in between due to not taking the Teachings on Anatta seriously enough. Moreover, one of the first distinctions to be made as a result of having heard the Dhamma, is the difference between concept and reality (and I know that you do appreciate this Howard), if a so called Buddhists fails at this, then he is in effect no different from anyone else. In fact, having now added `Buddhist ideas' to his repertory of concepts, he just has more of these as potential objects of attachment. ======================== > On the other hand, and this is just my opinion, a correct > understanding of Anatta reflects a willingness to give up `self' in > the moment, this can never arise to one who does not value other forms > of kusala, re: the accumulation and development of the Parami. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I agree with that last sentence. Sukin: But potentially dangerous (for me) as an idea to think too much about. :-) Metta, Sukin #81640 From: "Sukinder" Date: Thu Jan 24, 2008 12:47 am Subject: Respnse to Re: my parody and the reasons Part 1. sukinderpal Hi Alex, Sorry for the delay in responding. As you may have known from our last set of exchanges, I find it hard to keep up with your speed and stamina. More importantly however, you continue to be coming from the level of taking conventional activities very seriously whereas I remain interested in what goes on at the level of momentary experiences. I realize that ideally, I should at least try and go point by point to show you the difference and I admit therefore, that in this regard I end up only copping out. But then there is also the fact of you quoting texts which appear senseless to me, and this adds to the sense of us being too far apart in our understanding of the Dhamma to be able to communicate easily. That said, I'd like you to know that I have noted your `restraint' in reaction to a number of opposing posts here. For this you have my admiration. Metta, Sukin > Dear Sukinder, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinder" > wrote: > Nothing can stop the thinking process from arising to judge the > `situation' and any actions through speech and body which follows. > >>>>>>>>> > > MN20 Vitakkasanthana Sutta--- > How to deal with distracting thoughts: > 1) attending to another theme... > 2) scrutinizing the drawbacks of those thoughts... > 3) giving no attention to those thoughts... > 4) relaxing of thought-fabrication ... > 5) beating down, constraining and crushing mind.... (last resort, when > all other fails) #81641 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 24, 2008 2:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Outline of Purification of View V.5 nilovg Hi Larry, Op 24-jan-2008, om 1:15 heeft LBIDD@... het volgende geschreven: > Is my understanding of prompted consciousness correct? > > Larry: "he should not give up but should again and again comprehend, > give attention to, discern, and define materiality only." This is a > 'prompt' that is intended to prompt a prompted consciousness (sankhara > citta). One can also prompt oneself to give attention again and again. > Not every prompt is successful, but when it is it results in a > prompted > consciousness, in this case an attending plagued by afflictions which > gradually becomes clear insight (pa~n~naa), like muddy water that > settles down and becomes clear and thus able to discern even the most > subtle mental state. -------- N:You speak more about prompt in conventional sense. However, in the Vis. it is explained differently. Kusala citta accompanied by pa~n~naa that discerns nama and rupa can be induced or prompted, sasankhaarika, or not induced, unprompted, asankhaarika. It is most difficult to know when the one or the other arises. But when it arises spontaneously, unprompted, the degree of kusala is higher. I quote fromVis. XIV, 81: The Expositor explains the word sa.nkhaara, prompting, as external plan, effort, instigation by oneself or someone else. A citta that is prompted can arise from self-instigation, or The Tiika explains that the citta can be prompted by the instigation of oneself or by another, and that when there is not such prompting the citta is unprompted, asa"nkhaarika. We read about the kusala citta that is unprompted in the Co to Abh. Sangaha (T.A. p. 27,28): The difference between the first type of kusala citta and the second type which is prompted can remind us that there are different degrees of accumulated sobhana cetasikas. People have different degrees of confidence in kusala, of generosity and of other qualities. We read in the Visuddhimagga that a person may give . This example indicates that there are different degrees of kusala and that these are conditioned by past accumulations. Nobody can direct the citta to be in this way or that way. Vis 84: (1) When a man is happy on encountering an excellent gift to be given, or recipient, etc., or some such cause for joy, and by placing right view foremost that occurs in the way beginning 'There is [merit in] giving' (M.i,288), he unhesitatingly and unurged by others performs such merit as giving, etc., then his consciousness is 'accompanied by joy', 'associated with knowledge', and 'unprompted'. (2) But when a man is happy and content in the way aforesaid, and, while placing right view foremost, yet he does it hesitantly through lack of free generosity, etc., or urged on by others, then his consciousness is of the same kind as the last but 'prompted'; for in this sense 'prompting' is a term for a prior effort exerted by himself or others. ------- As to the expression, unhesitatingly, the performing of meritorious deeds does not exhibit any hesitation that could be due to stinginess as to fame, and so on, and in this way he explains unhindered generosity etc... N: There is avarice as to residence, gain, fame etc. Someone may not like to praise others because of stinginess. The person who does not have any stinginess, can without hesitation express his appreciation of someone else’s kusala, which is a form of dana. Tiika: As to the expression not urged (by others), this means not prompted in any way. In this way he shows the practice of meritorious deeds with its essential properties. As to the expression, (unurged) by others, by this he explains a natural effort. N: The effort for kusala arises spontaneously, without being prompted. ... This explanation indicates the difference in quality between kusala citta that arises spontaneously, without any hesitation, and kusala citta that is more hesitant, that needs prompting. There are many different degrees of kusala and they are dependent on different conditions. Confidence in the benefit of kusala has many degrees. Prompted. ******** Vis. : But when a man is happy and content in the way aforesaid, and, while placing right view foremost, yet he does it hesitantly through lack of free generosity, etc., or urged on by others, then his consciousness is of the same kind as the last but 'prompted'; for in this sense 'prompting' is a term for a prior effort exerted by himself or others. Tiika: With a mind that looks at the gifts that are to be given with restricted generosity. By the word (through restricted generosity,) etc., he deals with lack of determination in the undertaking of morality and so on. N: There is some hesitation and indecisiveness with regard to daana, siila and the other kinds of kusala when the kusala citta is prompted. When one observes siila with the second type of kusala citta, the confidence in kusala, respect for the Buddha and metta and respect for one’s fellowmen is not as strong as in the case of the first type of kusala citta that is unprompted. ****** Nina. #81642 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 24, 2008 2:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Siila develops pa~n~na ..(was Re: Outline of Purification of View V.1) nilovg Hi Tep and Larry, ------- Op 24-jan-2008, om 1:32 heeft LBIDD@... het volgende geschreven: > Tep: "How does "right understanding" develop the five precepts in a > worldling?" > > Larry: If I say don't kill, killing is bad and you agree that it is > bad, > it could be because you understand something. If you don't really understand that killing is bad but you refrain from killing nevertheless, then you don't create bad kamma but I don't know if you are really developing sila. ------- N: Right understanding can know precisely the different types of citta. It understands the danger of akusala and the benefit of kusala. Right understanding is a powerful condition to develop siila. As Larry says, one may refrain from killing without understanding but then one does not really develop siila so that it becomes more accomplished. Understanding of realities conditions true concern for others, less selfishness and this supports siila. One has respect for other people and does not want to harm them. Nina. #81643 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Jan 24, 2008 2:35 am Subject: Re: Ignorance......wrong concentration jonoabb Hi James (and others to whom I owe replies) Just now catching up on posts that came in while I was in Fiji. Apologies for the delay. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Jon, > > Thank you for the post. However, I find you line of reasoning very > faulty: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" > wrote: > . > > > > I know this line of 'reasoning' is often heard, but it's not > something > > found in the texts as far as I know, > > James: That is a ridiculous comment. The Buddha taught Right > Concentration and it is found through out the texts. I am not questioning Right Concentration. I am questioning the idea that kusala cannot be developed in daily life because of the presence of akusala states and the lack of concentration to counteract those akusala states. People who don't meditate can still have kusala moments in their day. In an earlier post you said: "James: Because kusala can't be developed in daily life without meditation as a support. The unconcentrated mind can't develop kusala in daily life because the asavas (underlying tendencies) toward greed, hatred, and delusion are too strong. The only way to counteract these strong tendencies of the mind is to develop concentration." I still think that the holding of a view of this nature would be an obstacle to the development of kusala in one's daily life. Jon #81644 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 24, 2008 2:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Outline of Purification of View V.1 nilovg Hi Larry (and TG), Op 24-jan-2008, om 3:28 heeft LBIDD@... het volgende geschreven: > This insight is based specifically > on chapters 14, 15, and 16 in The Path of Purification. You might call > it a test, or a dissertation. Above all, it is the _practice_ of > insight. ------- N: Very good, Larry. At first sight it may seem theory, all these classifications. But we have to read very carefully and think of the aim: knowing reality now. That is the development of the eightfold Path leading to freedom from the cycle. Some poeple think it strange that I see knowing the present moment as aim, but this is the development of the eightfold Path, thus, our first goal in order to reach the ultimate goal. Nina. #81645 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Jan 24, 2008 2:52 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy jonoabb Hi Alex --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > > Hi Jon, > > >>>>>>> > For example, we need to > > know whether the path factors are mental factors to be developed > > separately or whether they are mental factors that co-arise at > moments of insight development (or something else altogether). > What's your take on this? > >>>>> > > Is knowledge of THIS detail very helpful for the actual practice? Surely the question of whether the path factors are mental factors that co-arise at moments of insight development, or factors to be developed separately, is an extremely important one. Are you saying you see no difference between the two? To my mind, the different ways of understanding what the path factors are about implies a very different understanding of the path as taught by the Buddha. > 5 to 8 Precepts. Energy + WIsdom (not I not me not I, Letting go, > anicca-dukha anatta - DO, 4NT). > > Samma Sati + Samma Samadhi. Well that's quite a list. But how does it relate to the present moment? > By clinging to any Jhanas you can never be liberated. But if you USE > the Jhanas to LET GO OF EVERYTHING, INCLUDING the cherished delusion > of "SELF" - that will cause liberation. Of course this isn't a > liberation of some entity called a 'soul', but neither is it a total > anihilation. I don't think you'll find in the suttas any talk of "using the jhanas to let go of self". It just isn't there, to my knowledge. > Secluded from sensual pleasures, sense data and unwholesome places > you are able to enter Jhanas. Stop purposefully feeding the > hindrances, and when they get starved, then it is easier to do > temporary switch 'em off. One needs to also be secluded from wrong view in order for insight to be developed. Sense impressions and the attendant attachment/aversion are not the problem ;-)) (With apologies for the delay) Jon #81646 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 24, 2008 2:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Removal of distracting thoughts. nilovg Dear Alex, you refer to: > MN20 Vitakkasanthana Sutta--- > > How to deal with distracting thoughts: > > 1) attending to another theme... > > 2) scrutinizing the drawbacks of those thoughts... > > 3) giving no attention to those thoughts... > > 4) relaxing of thought-fabrication ... > > 5) beating down, constraining and crushing mind.... (last resort, > when > > all other fails) ------- N: I read the Co. and wrote about it, but I do not see it in past posts. The bhikkhu received all sorts of good counsels, even ringing a bell to meet wise fellowmonks. I just quote from a former post which contains parts: We read that he should go to the teacher. The co states: <... he should go to another bhikkhu he respects and he should asks questions concerning the meaning of the Dhamma. In this way his doubts will be allayed and he can abandon delusion. He should listen to the Dhamma at the appropriate time with respect and thus the meaning of what he hears will become clear to him. Thus he can abandon ignorance of the Dhamma. He should inquire as to the right cause that can bring the appropriate result. In this way he can abandon ignorance of the Dhamma.> The answer is: listen more, consider more so that there will be more understanding of the cittas which are cause (kusala and akusala), and the cittas that are vipaakacittas, for example. The unpleasant experiences through the senses are vipaaka, but how are our reactions to these? Do we blame others, or the situation, or is there understanding of cause and effect in life?> Nina. #81647 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Thu Jan 24, 2008 4:26 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (73) nichiconn Dear Friends, Part 22 16. Mahaanipaato 1. Sumedhaatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa 461. "Buddhaana.m uppaado, vivajjito akkha.no kha.no laddho; siilaani brahmacariya.m, yaavajiiva.m na duuseyya.m. 459. "There is arising of Buddhas. The inopportune moment has been avoided. The opportune moment has been seized. As long as life lasts, I would not infringe the rules of virtuous conduct and [the living of] the holy life." Buddhaana.m uppaado laddho, vivajjito nirayuupapatti-aadiko a.t.thavidho akkha.no, kha.no navamo kha.no laddhoti yojanaa. Siilaaniiti catupaarisuddhisiilaani. Brahmacariyanti saasanabrahmacariya.m. Na duuseyyanti na kopeyyaami. 459. [The opportune moment of] the arising of Buddhas has been seized, the eightfold inopportune moment[s] of being born in hell, etc, have been avoided. The opportune moment, the ninth moment, has been seized.* That is the implication. The rules of virtous conduct (siilaani) means: the four rules of virtuous conduct of purity (catu-paari-suddhi-siilaani).** [The living of] the holy life (brahma-cariya.m) means: the holy life according to the teaching (saasana-brahma-cariya.m). I would not infringe means: I would not break. *...On "the ninth moment [opportunity]" see the cy above on v.95 (p.110, n.3). **According to Dhp-a IV iii, these are given in Dhp v. 375: (1) control of the senses, (2) contentment, (3) restraint in the rules of discipline, and (4) being of good livelihood. Cf. J III 291. 462. "Eva.m bha.nati sumedhaa, maataapitaro 'na taava aahaara.m; aaharissa.m gaha.t.thaa, mara.navasa.m gataava hessaami'. 460. Thus Sumedhaa spoke to her mother and father: "Meanwhile I shall not take food as a householder. [If I do not go forth,] I shall indeed have gone under the influence of death." Na taava aahaara.m aaharissa.m gaha.t.thaati "neva taava aha.m gaha.t.thaa hutvaa aahaara.m aaharissaami, sace pabbajja.m na labhissaami, mara.navasameva gataa bhavissaamii"ti eva.m sumedhaa maataapitaro bha.natiiti yojanaa. 460. Meanwhile I shall not take food as a householder means: meanwhile I shall not take food, being a householder. If I do not obtain permission to go forth, I shall indeed have gone into the influence of death, thus Sumedhaa spoke to her mother and father, that is the implication. 463. "Maataa dukkhitaa rodati pitaa ca; assaa sabbaso samabhihato; gha.tenti sa~n~naapetu.m, paasaadatale chamaapatita.m. 461. Pained, her mother lamented, and [with] her father, who was completely overwhelmed, they strove to remonstrate with her [as she lay] fallen to the ground on the roof of the palace. Assaati sumedhaaya. Sabbaso samabhihatoti assuuhi sabbaso abhihatamukho. Gha.tenti sa~n~naapetunti paasaadatale chamaapatita.m sumedha.m maataa ca pitaa ca gihibhaavaaya sa~n~naapetu.m gha.tenti vaayamanti. "Gha.tenti vaayamantii"tipi paa.tho, so evattho. 461. With her means: with Sumedhaa. Completely overwhelmed (samabhihato) means: with his face completely overwhelmed (abhi-hata-mukho) by tears. They strove (gha.tenti) to remonstrate means: both the mother and father strove to remonstrate with Sumedhaa concerning being a householder [as she lay] fallen to the ground on the roof of the palace. There is also the reading, "they remonstrated, they endeavoured" (gha.tenti vaayamanti). The meaning is the same. === to be continued, connie #81648 From: "crosby_s" Date: Thu Jan 24, 2008 3:40 am Subject: Hello im new member here. crosby_s Hi my name is Steven and i live in Sydney Australia, i am 27 years old and i am very interested in Buddhism and the Dhammapada and its teachings from Buddha.I am new to Buddhism, i have tried to learn or make Buddhism a part of my life in the past but failed.I would like to make Buddhism especially Theravada tradition a part of my life now as i was starting to spiral out of control with drinking alcohol and smoking cigarettes but i am trying very hard to stop these things with the help of the Dhammapada.I would be very appreciative for any help in learning from the Buddhas Teachings from (DSG) and how to cope with people in everyday life and the situations i may face from following a path like this. Also i am reading the Dhammapada from Buddhanet.com titled Treasury of Truth by Ven. W. Sarada Maha Thero and Practical Vipassana by Ven. Mahasi Sayadaw, any other books or litrature that you find may help me please let me know. I am starting off with the Dhammapada first as i think i should know what the Buddha taught, i have explanations for all the verses and if i am troubled by any verses i shall ask questions.As for the Practical Vipassana book, i am very much wanting to meditate and join a retreat someday and this book, and maybe some others are a good starting point i think.Sorry for this post being so long and involved and thank you if you have read this and reply to me. With Metta Steven. #81649 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jan 24, 2008 1:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Respnse to Re: my parody and the reasons Part 2. upasaka_howard Hi, Sukin - In a message dated 1/24/2008 3:34:43 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, sukinder@... writes: Hi Howard (*Phil), Sorry for the delay in responding. Actually I was debating whether there was any need to respond at all since after all for the first time, you expressed so much agreement. ;-) Let's then take this as being more like an elaboration on the last post…!! =================== > *And I thought Howard was making a wrong comparison. :-/ Others have > also made similar comparisons, some even to propose that scientists > and other serious academics were getting a whiff of Anatta when they > think in terms of `impersonal phenomena'. But this is neither being > close to the understanding of Anatta or for the matter anything Dhamma > and it leads me to question the understanding of those who make such > comparison. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > You have misunderstood me, I believe, Sukin. I was only giving a > theoretical analogy as a means to clarify the possibility of functioning at the > level of convention while understanding at the level of reality. There is an > enormous difference between a scientist's theories and the actual knowing of > not-self/no-self. One fundamental aspect of the difference is that of theorizing > versus direct knowing with wisdom. Sukin: Also while the descriptions given in Dhamma / Abhidhamma point to "realities" with distinguishing characteristics; those of the scientist are `concepts' only. ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Well, I agree with regard to the scientists. But for most of us, the descriptions in the Buddhist teachings are also only concept at this point. But, I also agree that they are closer to being directly known, because they are experience-oriented (i.e., phenomenological more than ontological). ----------------------------------------------------- Therefore, when we study the Dhamma we know to distinguish concept from reality and this when developed can lead to the direct experience of the latter. ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: So we believe. Let's check in with each other when we know! ;-) ------------------------------------------------------ The scientist on the other hand is encouraged only to refine his `conceptual knowledge', therefore as far as knowing the difference between these two, his position is not in anyway better than anyone else. Besides, as he believes he is `getting to the truth of things', this will likely make it harder to accept what the Dhamma has to say. ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: The scientist develops predictive conceptual schemes that are refuted or tentatively confirmed by means of observation & experiment, but it is *all* ultimately inferential, and not a matter of direct knowing. ------------------------------------------------------- ======================== Howard: > A deeper difference, IMO, is that the > realizing of tilakkhana has nothing to do, itself, with theory, though, of > course, correct teachings of the Buddhadhamma pondered deeply are crucial > conditions for liberating wisdom. Sukin: And indispensable, how else after all could one ever arrive at the truth of the Tilakkhana if not from hearing about it from the Buddha. Moreover, given that to practice / experience is a matter of panna arising to know a reality, how could this ever be expected of any scientist. ======================== > People are attracted to different ways of `making sense of the world' > and become attached to it. The idea of `impersonal phenomena' is one > such way on which I too at one time indulged in. But the fact of > Anatta is to be "understood" and not to merely be taken as an idea to > play around with or applied to phenomena "out there". > ------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I completely agree! > ----------------------------------------------------- > Having `conceived' the scientist then goes on to try and make sense of > `things' based on that initial misperception. Likewise, the Buddhist > having conceived, he tries to apply the `theory' of Anatta, but only > when convenient. > ------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > But even there, the Buddhist has the advantage. *Sukin: Yes, I know that I sometimes judge `Buddhists' too harshly. Also I'm reminded at this moment about Phil's insistence on how people can benefit from a more superficial understanding of what the Buddha taught. Yes, I'm happy that they do! However I'm certain that the Buddha didn't at any time, wanted any of audience to understand anything at the level of Me, Mine or I. This would go against the purpose of his Teachings. Therefore even though I'm happy that people come to appreciate other forms of kusala, even if just a little bit more, through the Dhamma, I would not want to encourage any self view which invariably arises in between due to not taking the Teachings on Anatta seriously enough. Moreover, one of the first distinctions to be made as a result of having heard the Dhamma, is the difference between concept and reality (and I know that you do appreciate this Howard), if a so called Buddhists fails at this, then he is in effect no different from anyone else. In fact, having now added `Buddhist ideas' to his repertory of concepts, he just has more of these as potential objects of attachment. --------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: LOLOL! Yes, that's quite true. Many Buddhists - maybe all of us to some degree or other, rather hilariously (to me) think that by being Buddhists they are free of attachment, but, instead, have merely shifted or even enlarged their domain of attachments! ------------------------------------------------------------ ======================== > On the other hand, and this is just my opinion, a correct > understanding of Anatta reflects a willingness to give up `self' in > the moment, this can never arise to one who does not value other forms > of kusala, re: the accumulation and development of the Parami. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I agree with that last sentence. Sukin: But potentially dangerous (for me) as an idea to think too much about. :-) Metta, Sukin ================================== Sukin, this conversation is *such* a pleasure! :-) With metta, Howard #81650 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 24, 2008 7:42 am Subject: Alone with Dhamma, Ch 1, no 2. nilovg Dear friends, Acharn Sujin explained that we are born alone: the rebirth- consciousness is a citta that arises and falls away and is succeeded by a following citta. There cannot be more than one citta at a time. We see alone, we think alone, we sleep alone, we die alone. The citta that falls away never returns; after passing away from this plane there is no return of the same individual. Whenever citta arises, it experiences one object and then falls away immediately. When visible object appears we take it immediately as this person or my friend, but that is thinking on account of the experience of visible object. The Buddha taught about all dhammas appearing through the six doors, and during our pilgrimage this was a topic of discussion time and again. During our pilgrimage we visited the holy places where the Buddha was born, attained enlightenment, preached his first sermon, and passed finally away. It was a long and difficult journey, but, as a monk in Kusinåra said, it was our confidence in the Buddha’s teachings that brought us to these places with the purpose to pay respect to him. When we were in Lumbini Acharn Sujin reminded us that the teachings are declining and will eventually disappear. Then nobody will know anymore the meaning of the holy places. Now we still have the opportunity to pay respect to the Buddha at these places, and it is as if we pay respect at his feet. The Buddha fulfilled all the perfections and after dwelling in the Tusita Heaven he became a human being and was born in Lumbini. That was his last life. In Bodhgaya he became a Sammåsambuddha in order to help the world to become free from dukkha. Khun Sujin helped us to have more understanding of the dhamma appearing at the present moment, because without such understanding we only speculate about the truth. Her energy to speak extensively on the Dhamma was truly amazing and it showed her concern for us. She exhorted us to develop understanding, no matter whether the circumstances were disturbing, no matter whether we were sick or tired. She would repeatedly say: “develop understanding now.” During our journey we also visited different Thai monasteries where we offered robes and other requisites. The Abbot of the Thai temple in Nalanda expressed his appreciation of Acharn Sujin’s Dhamma talks to which he listened regularly. In the Thai temple of Kusinåra the Abbot gave Acharn Sujin a blessing and said that he had listened to her for forty years, since the time he was a monk in the temple of Mahå-dhåtu in Bangkok. During the rainy season he listened for one and a half hour in the morning, and also after the rainy season he listened regularly. He said: ”How could we understand the Dhamma without Acharn Sujin, where would we be without her.” We rejoiced in his appreciation of Acharn Sujin’s efforts to explain the Dhamma. This monastery also has a Dispensary where many people from the province are coming. It is supported by devoted volunteers. ******* Nina. #81651 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 24, 2008 7:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello im new member here. nilovg Dear Steven, welcome to our group. I am glad you are interested in Buddhism and especially in the Dhammapada. Perhaps we can start a dialogue on the Dhammapada, if you can tell us what you find especially helpful. How does it help you in your life facing problems? Looking forward to your input, Nina. Op 24-jan-2008, om 12:40 heeft crosby_s het volgende geschreven: > Hi my name is Steven and i live in Sydney Australia, i am 27 years old > and i am very interested in Buddhism and the Dhammapada and its > teachings from Buddha. #81652 From: "Alex" Date: Thu Jan 24, 2008 9:03 am Subject: Respnse to Re: my parody and the reasons Part 1. truth_aerator Dear Sukinder, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinder" wrote: > > Hi Alex, > > Sorry for the delay in responding. > More importantly however, you continue to be coming from the level of taking conventional activities> very seriously whereas I remain interested in what goes on at the> level of momentary experiences. >>> We live in a "conventional world". When you need to drive a car from point A to point B, you aren't supposed to know and be able to name every transistor found in every microchip in your car. In fact, sometimes so much detail at a certain level (pre Arahantship) may be UN-NEEDED or worse... Imagine if you tried to live in "absolute truth" while driving... There aren't any people, or stop signs... Nobody gets into a crash (dukkha), nothing ceases (Nirodha). The result wouldn't be pretty. That sort of Panna is one of the LAST thing that gets fully perfected, it happens at Arahatship AFTER a lot of Samadhi (mastery is required for Anagamin) and after the greed/anger was reduced quite a bit if not completely for the Rupa Loka. About experiencing "realities", I agree that this is important. However a) It is done FROM Jhana: "quite withdrawn from sensual pleasures, withdrawn from unskillful qualities — entered & remained in the first jhana. Whatever qualities there are in the first jhana — directed thought, evaluation, rapture, pleasure, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness,2 desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention — he ferreted them out one after another. Known to him they arose, known to him they remained, known to him they subsided. He discerned, 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He understood, 'There is a further escape,' and pursuing it, he confirmed that 'There is.' [go on up to Nirodha Samapatti] "Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, Sariputta entered & remained in the cessation of feeling & perception. Seeing with discernment, his fermentations were totally ended. He emerged mindfully from that attainment. On emerging mindfully from that attainment, he regarded the past qualities that had ceased & changed: 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He understood, 'There is no further escape,' and pursuing it, he confirmed that 'There isn't.' " http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.111.than.html b) It is done NOT for intellectual accumulations but to turn Citta away from 5 aggregates toward Deathless Element: "Ananda, what is the path and method, to dispel the lower bonds of the sensual world? Ananda, the bhikkhu secluding the mind thoroughly, by dispelling things of demerit, removes all bodily transgressions that bring remorse. Then secluding the mind, from sensual thoughts and thoughts of demerit, with thoughts and discursive thoughts and with joy and pleasantness born of seclusion abides in the first jhana. Established in it he reflects all things that matter, all feelings, all perceptive things, all intentions, all conscious signs are impermanent, unpleasant, an illness, an abscess, an arrow, a misfortune, an ailment, foreign, destined for destruction, is void, and devoid of a self." "S/He turns the mind (Citta) to the deathless element (amataaya dhaatuyaa).This is peaceful, this is exalted, such as the appeasement of all determinations, the giving up of all endearments.the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation and Nibbana." - MN63 (BTW, this and other quotes show that Citta isn't part of 5 aggregates and it SURVIVES in a deathless element. "With that mind (Citta) he comes to the destruction of desires. If he does not destroy desires on account of greed and interest for those same things. He arises spontaneously, with the destruction of the five lower bonds, of the sensual world, not to proceed. Ananda, this too is a method for overcoming the five lower bonds of the sensual world.. " - MN63 > > > Dear Sukinder, > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinder" > > wrote: > > Nothing can stop the thinking process from arising to judge the > > `situation' and any actions through speech and body which follows. > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > MN20 Vitakkasanthana Sutta--- > > How to deal with distracting thoughts: > > 1) attending to another theme... > > 2) scrutinizing the drawbacks of those thoughts... > > 3) giving no attention to those thoughts... > > 4) relaxing of thought-fabrication ... > > 5) beating down, constraining and crushing mind.... (last resort, when > > all other fails) > Lots of Metta, Alex #81653 From: "Alex" Date: Thu Jan 24, 2008 9:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Removal of distracting thoughts. truth_aerator Dear Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > ------- > N: I read the Co. and wrote about it, but I do not see it in past > posts. The bhikkhu received all sorts of good counsels, even ringing > a bell to meet wise fellowmonks. I just quote from a former post > which contains parts: > read it with right understanding. I wrote: > < We have to remember throughout this sutta that the bhikkhu who lives his bhikkhu life to the full >>>> In the sutta there is NO hint that it is Only for monks. Maybe developing the knowledge of nama-rupa is also for monks? Maybe entire Buddha's teaching is only for monks? But you seem to approve of hard philosophy (AP) and deny the hard work of MN20. 362. He who has control over his hands, feet and tongue; who is fully controlled, delights in inward development, is absorbed in meditation, keeps to himself and is contented — him do people call a monk. 367. He who has no attachment whatsoever for the mind and body, who does not grieve for what he has not — he is truly called a monk. 396. I do not call him a holy man because of his lineage or high-born mother. If he is full of impeding attachments, he is just a supercilious man. But who is free from impediments and clinging — him do I call a holy man. 273. Of all the paths the Eightfold Path is the best; of all the truths the Four Noble Truths are the best; of all things passionlessness is the best: of men the Seeing One (the Buddha) is the best. 274. This is the only path; there is none other for the purification of insight. Tread this path, and you will bewilder Mara. 280. The idler who does not exert himself when he should, who though young and strong is full of sloth, with a mind full of vain thoughts — such an indolent man does not find the path to wisdom. 282. Wisdom springs from meditation; without meditation wisdom wanes. Having known these two paths of progress and decline, let a man so conduct himself that his wisdom may increase. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/dhp/index.html >>> The Bhikkhu has left his household life and all the sense pleasures involved with it. His lifestyle is as far removed from the laylife as is heaven from earth. >>>> Not always. A dedicated lay person can practice very well, almost as good as some Bhikkhus. There were plenty of lay Anagamins in Buddha's days. > > The answer is: listen more, consider more so that there will be more > understanding of the cittas which are cause (kusala and akusala), and > the cittas that are vipaakacittas, for example. The unpleasant > experiences through the senses are vipaaka, but how are our reactions > to these? Do we blame others, or the situation, or is there > understanding of cause and effect in life?> > > Nina. > Dear Nina, the above isn't the entire teaching of the Buddha. It has to be put into practice called Noble 8Fold Path. Knowledge without action is not enough. What does knowing about every little transistor found in a car do to get you from point A to B, if you don't actually drive to the destination? In many suttas there are strategies to deal with Anger, Greed, or Delusion - and they don't involve knowing all elemental particles, "dhammas". Well, suttas dealing with Jhanas do. But remember knowledge should be obtained First Hand FROM Jhana states (see mn111 for example) rather from pre Jhanic defiled mind full of Hindrances. Lots of Metta, Alex #81654 From: "Alex" Date: Thu Jan 24, 2008 9:52 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy truth_aerator Dear Jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Alex > > Is knowledge of THIS detail very helpful for the actual practice? > > Surely the question of whether the path factors are mental factors > that co-arise at moments of insight development, or factors to be > developed separately, is an extremely important one. Are you saying > you see no difference between the two? >>>> You are overcomplicating unessesarily the mostly clear cut instructions of the Buddha found in the Suttas such as (mn2,20,111,118, SN 45.8) > > 5 to 8 Precepts. Energy + WIsdom (not I not me not I, Letting go, > > anicca-dukha anatta - DO, 4NT). > > > > Samma Sati + Samma Samadhi. > > Well that's quite a list. But how does it relate to the present moment? >>>> It is what you do in the present moment. A good example is MN111 and MN63. > > By clinging to any Jhanas you can never be liberated. But if you USE > > the Jhanas to LET GO OF EVERYTHING, INCLUDING the cherished delusion > > of "SELF" - that will cause liberation. Of course this isn't a > > liberation of some entity called a 'soul', but neither is it a total > > anihilation. > > I don't think you'll find in the suttas any talk of "using the jhanas to let go of self". It just isn't there, to my knowledge. >>>> Correction: In Jhana's you let of 5 aggregates (anatta) and turn your Mind (citta, the only True Self) towards the Deathless Element (amataaya dhaatuyaa). Ananda, what is the path and method, to dispel the lower bonds of the sensual world? Ananda, the bhikkhu secluding the mind thoroughly, by dispelling things of demerit, removes all bodily transgressions that bring remorse. Then secluding the mind, from sensual thoughts and thoughts of demerit, with thoughts and discursive thoughts and with joy and pleasantness born of seclusion abides in the first jhana. Established in it he reflects all things that matter, all feelings, all perceptive things, all intentions, all conscious signs are impermanent, unpleasant, an illness, an abscess, an arrow, a misfortune, an ailment, foreign, destined for destruction, is void, and devoid of a self. Then he turns the mind to the deathless element: This is peaceful, this is exalted, such as the appeasement of all determinations, the giving up of all endearments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation and extinction [alex: of 5 Aggregates which are not Self or Soul) (* 1). With that mind [citta, the only true and everlasting core) he comes to the destruction of desires. If he does not destroy desires on account of greed and interest for those same things. He arises spontaneously, with the destruction of the five lower bonds, of the sensual world, not to proceed. Ananda, this too is a method for overcoming the five lower bonds of the sensual world.. http://www.budsas.org/ebud/majjhima/064-maha-malunkhyaputta-e1.htm Another thing: The fact is that mastery of Jhana can lead either to Arahatship or to Anagamiship. Don't understimate the power of the Jhana! > > Secluded from sensual pleasures, sense data and unwholesome places > > you are able to enter Jhanas. Stop purposefully feeding the > > hindrances, and when they get starved, then it is easier to do > > temporary switch 'em off. > > One needs to also be secluded from wrong view in order for insight to > be developed. Sense impressions and the attendant attachment/aversion > are not the problem ;-)) > > (With apologies for the delay) > > Jon > Jon, this is why you read the Suttas to remove the wrong view: Read MN#2 for example: Asavas to be removed by Seeing. --- "[1] And what are the fermentations to be abandoned by seeing? There is the case where an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person — who has no regard for noble ones, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma; who has no regard for men of integrity, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma — does not discern what ideas are fit for attention or what ideas are unfit for attention. This being so, he does not attend to ideas fit for attention and attends [instead] to ideas unfit for attention. "And what are the ideas unfit for attention that he attends to? Whatever ideas such that, when he attends to them, the unarisen fermentation of sensuality arises in him, and the arisen fermentation of sensuality increases; the unarisen fermentation of becoming arises in him, and arisen fermentation of becoming increases; the unarisen fermentation of ignorance arises in him, and the arisen fermentation of ignorance increases. These are the ideas unfit for attention that he attends to. "And what are the ideas fit for attention that he does not attend to? Whatever ideas such that, when he attends to them, the unarisen fermentation of sensuality does not arise in him, and the arisen fermentation of sensuality is abandoned; the unarisen fermentation of becoming does not arise in him, and arisen fermentation of becoming is abandoned; the unarisen fermentation of ignorance does not arise in him, and the arisen fermentation of ignorance is abandoned. These are the ideas fit for attention that he does not attend to. Through his attending to ideas unfit for attention and through his not attending to ideas fit for attention, both unarisen fermentations arise in him, and arisen fermentations increase. "This is how he attends inappropriately: 'Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what was I in the past? Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I be in the future?' Or else he is inwardly perplexed about the immediate present: 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where is it bound?' "As he attends inappropriately in this way, one of six kinds of view arises in him: The view I have a self arises in him as true & established, or the view I have no self... or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive self... or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive not-self... or the view It is precisely by means of not-self that I perceive self arises in him as true & established, or else he has a view like this: This very self of mine — the knower that is sensitive here & there to the ripening of good & bad actions — is the self of mine that is constant, everlasting, eternal, not subject to change, and will stay just as it is for eternity. This is called a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion of views, a writhing of views, a fetter of views. Bound by a fetter of views, the uninstructed run-of- the-mill person is not freed from birth, aging, & death, from sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. He is not freed, I tell you, from suffering & stress. "The well-instructed disciple of the noble ones — who has regard for noble ones, is well-versed & disciplined in their Dhamma; who has regard for men of integrity, is well-versed & disciplined in their Dhamma — discerns what ideas are fit for attention and what ideas are unfit for attention. This being so, he does not attend to ideas unfit for attention and attends [instead] to ideas fit for attention. "And what are the ideas unfit for attention that he does not attend to? Whatever ideas such that, when he attends to them, the unarisen fermentation of sensuality arises in him, and the arisen fermentation of sensuality increases; the unarisen fermentation of becoming arises in him, and arisen fermentation of becoming increases; the unarisen fermentation of ignorance arises in him, and the arisen fermentation of ignorance increases. These are the ideas unfit for attention that he does not attend to. "And what are the ideas fit for attention that he does attend to? Whatever ideas such that, when he attends to them, the unarisen fermentation of sensuality does not arise in him, and the arisen fermentation of sensuality is abandoned; the unarisen fermentation of becoming does not arise in him, and the arisen fermentation of becoming is abandoned; the unarisen fermentation of ignorance does not arise in him, and the arisen fermentation of ignorance is abandoned. These are the ideas fit for attention that he does attend to. Through his not attending to ideas unfit for attention and through his attending to ideas fit for attention, unarisen fermentations do not arise in him, and arisen fermentations are abandoned. "He attends appropriately, This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress. As he attends appropriately in this way, three fetters are abandoned in him: identity-view, doubt, and grasping at precepts & practices. These are called the fermentations to be abandoned by seeing. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.002.than.html Regarding how to see "this is stress", see the above quote from MN64. It is done in atleast 1st Jhana. Lots of Metta, Alex #81655 From: "Alex" Date: Thu Jan 24, 2008 10:11 am Subject: Re: Ignorance......wrong concentration truth_aerator Dear Jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > People who don't meditate can still have kusala moments in their day. >>>> If by "meditate" you meant samma-samadhi (atleast for a split second, most may require more) , then a)This person isn't fullfilling Noble 8 fold (yes, 8fold not 7fold path) b) This person isn't in a "stream-entry" which requires the attainment of Noble 8 (yes, 8 not 7) fold path. SN:55 5 (5) Sariputta 2 (CDB 1792-93) Lots of Metta, Alex #81656 From: Dieter Möller Date: Thu Jan 24, 2008 10:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Alleged Slowing Down of Mind States .. The Monkey Mind Model.... moellerdieter Hi Tep, Alex, James, Howard and all, you wrote : Tep: Dieter relies on science to define mind speed in terms of the frequency of brain waves. Howard, on the other hand, relates mind speed to ease of observation that is due to "heightened clarity" during a meditation. You both are right in two different aspects of the same situation. D: not really , Howard ( Hi Howard, hoping to express your point ;-) ) rejects that speed has anything to do with 'to calm body and mind 'as stated in the suttas. There is one , actually more important fact to speed: the frequency of breathing and its slowing down due to lower activity . Tep:I think the main aspect is in Dieter's description of the "monkey mind" (from Dhp). As I understand it, the mind speed is measured by how fast or slow the monkey mind switches from one "branch" to another. Like Howard observes, during a good meditation there is significant heightened clarity in the meditation object's characteristics --that is because the monkey mind dwells longer on that object (it holds on to the present "branch"). The consequence is a slow down in its switching speed to another mind object and back again. D: well said, Tep. Howard may perhaps not agree .. (?) It is the point of slowing down , like driving a car switching from the fourth to the third gear similar to from beta to alpha brain waves.. ( ...the second gear would correspond to Jhana and Theta) T: A distracted mind quickly switches from one object to another as if it does not have time to rest -- working overtime, like Elaine D: comon is to us is the restlessness.. and some have difficulties to realize a break , this stillness of the thought process which has much to do with the second Jhana. Usually the mind jumps from one association to the other , interrupted only of moments when our interest (tanha ) is clinging for a whíle on one object, doesn't it? The art means to me to 'attract ' the mind on a neutral object like the breathe in order to slow down the restlessness and having more /the time to see 'what is going on'..in the direction of insight.. Oh.. may there be more members to recognize and state their problem with the ' working overtime' mind ;-)) Tep: Just ignore the above if it does not make sense to you. ;-) D: thanks for your meaningful feedback, Tep ;-) with Metta Dieter #81657 From: Dieter Möller Date: Thu Jan 24, 2008 11:24 am Subject: Re: Alleged Slowing Down of Mind States (Re: [dsg] Respnse to Re: my parody .... moellerdieter Hi James , Howard and all , you wrote: (Howard :All that I can say is that whenever I have heard meditators speaking of mind slowing down while meditating, they have not just meant that calm pervades the mind, but what I said above about the mind-flow or citta-sequence literally slowing down as if there were an observer standing back and watching, and this makes no sense to me. I really have nothing more to add on this. (Sorry - really.) ) James: If you don't mind, I will throw my two cents in. During meditation the mind appears to slow down because it is concentrated on a specific object. Therefore the mind doesn't jump as quickly from object to object, so it becomes calm and appears to "slow down" its usual frantic activity. D: yes, the mind slows down with the usual frantic activity ,the restriction of the quantity of sense impression allows the focus /concentration ..there is a sutta simile of a river with channels .. the opening or closure directing energy /speed of the stream James:However, the mind doesn't literally slow down because it doesn't move. You could say that a running man moves faster than a walking man, but that has to do with movement. The mind doesn't "move" in that way. And "slow down" also has to do with time elapsing but the mind maintains the same time duration (time doesn't change for the mind in this realm). D: I was thinking about the simile of a running or walking man too .. When changing from running to walking , the mind is in another 'gear' , another speed ..slowed down James: But, something else to consider is when the Buddha or other monks are able to visit alternative dimensions (like deva realms) where time elapses differently. Those visiting those realms are aware of this time difference somehow. D: better later ;-) as the issue concerns so far only the entrance of meditation Robert asked : 'do you have the reference where it says mind states can be slowed down by doing sitting meditation?' ( yes, as stated ''There is the case where a monk -- having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building -- sits down ...He trains himself to breathe in calming bodily fabrication and to breathe out calming bodily fabrication.' / 'He trains himself to breathe in calming mental processes, and to breathe out calming mental processes.)' James: I don't know what to think of that...it would take an Einstein to figure that one out! ;-)) D: good point ..time is relative ... speed a point ... ;-) with Metta Dieter #81658 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 24, 2008 11:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Lessons in Detachment, Ch 5, no 2. nilovg Dear Sarah, Op 24-jan-2008, om 8:41 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > S: I just remembered K.Sujin gave the example of how there may be a > subtle > trying to be aware now because of the deep-rooted tendency. It's not > right, because the viriya is not balanced - there's an over- > striving as a > result of silabbataparamasa, only eradicated by the sotapanna. > However, as > I wrote yesterday, not wrong view involved. -------- N: Also on MP3 I heard something about this I did not get. Even the sotapanna can have (subtle silabbataparamasa) when wanting to have more sati. But is this not rather lobha without wrong view? I read in the texts that silabbataparamasa is a form of wrong view, and also that all wrong view is eradicated by the sotapanna. Nina. #81659 From: "Alex" Date: Thu Jan 24, 2008 11:43 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Lessons in Detachment, Ch 5, no 2. truth_aerator Dear Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > -------- > N: Also on MP3 I heard something about this I did not get. Even the > sotapanna can have (subtle silabbataparamasa) when wanting to have > more sati. But is this not rather lobha without wrong view? > I read in the texts that silabbataparamasa is a form of wrong view, > and also that all wrong view is eradicated by the sotapanna. > Nina. > A sotapanna has only eradicated 3 out of 10 fetters: 1) belief in one's body as a self (Pali: sakkāya-diṭṭhi) 2) doubt or uncertainty, especially about the teachings (vicikicchā) 3) attachment to rites and rituals (sīlabbata-parāmāso) The 7 fetters to be eradicated are: A sotapanna STILL has (but not strong enough for 5 heineous crimes): sensual desire (kāmacchando) ill will (vyāpādo or byāpādo) lust for material existence, lust for material rebirth (rūparāgo)[10] lust for immaterial existence (arūparāgo) pride in self, conceit, arrogance (māno) restlessness, distraction (uddhaccaŋ) ignorance (avijjā) A sotapana cannot: Willfully shed someone's blood (I read it somewhere in AN, don't remember if it for a sotapanna or higher) Take any of the 5 khandas for self Take any of the 5 khandas as permanent or happiness. Go to non-buddhist teacher. Lots of Metta, Alex #81660 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Thu Jan 24, 2008 7:02 am Subject: RE: [dsg] The "Self", Paramattha sacce, and reductionist fallacy of a chariot dacostacharles Hello all, Alex, I have been arguing this point since I came to DSG. However, I realize now that Buddhists like a lot of members of this group have a view that is based on a type of practiced. The goal of this practice is for the individual to transcend Relative “Reality/Truth/Existence.” With that in mind, please understand where they are coming from – Trying to transcend Samsara by denying its permanence, its existence and its realities, by seeing through it until you only see its emptiness, or its most basic forms (light, sound, sensation, etc…). Personally, I agree with you, but that is because I exist in samsara, and I believe Enlightenment comes by transforming/transmuting my samsaric experience into an enlightening one. This should bring about stages of Enlightenment that consummate in an Existence that is like this view, DSG’s most popular view. Keep in mind though, in this view, all compounded entities, including what DSG members call Realities become empty of Self (This Self-clinging to them) and not real (in the since that their value disappears). The bottom line is that you and I prefer a balanced view between what is relative and what may be perceived as Ultimate/Absolute. Charles DaCosta _____ From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Alex Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 19:01 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] The "Self", Paramattha sacce, and reductionist fallacy of a chariot Hello all, The whole thing that -> "ABCDEF" is not X thus X doesn't exist is a logical fallacy which has plagued "Buddhist" philosophy after the Buddha. -- Category Errors These fallacies occur because the author mistakenly assumes that the whole is nothing more than the sum of its parts. However, things joined together may have different properties as a whole than any of them do separately. The following fallacies are category errors: <....> #81661 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jan 24, 2008 7:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Alleged Slowing Down of Mind States .. The Monkey Mind Model.... upasaka_howard Hi, Dieter & all - In a message dated 1/24/2008 1:26:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, moellerdieter@... writes: Hi Tep, Alex, James, Howard and all, you wrote : Tep: Dieter relies on science to define mind speed in terms of the frequency of brain waves. Howard, on the other hand, relates mind speed to ease of observation that is due to "heightened clarity" during a meditation. You both are right in two different aspects of the same situation. D: not really , Howard ( Hi Howard, hoping to express your point ;-) ) rejects that speed has anything to do with 'to calm body and mind 'as stated in the suttas. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Correct. ------------------------------------------------ There is one , actually more important fact to speed: the frequency of breathing and its slowing down due to lower activity . Tep:I think the main aspect is in Dieter's description of the "monkey mind" (from Dhp). As I understand it, the mind speed is measured by how fast or slow the monkey mind switches from one "branch" to another. Like Howard observes, during a good meditation there is significant heightened clarity in the meditation object's characteristics --that is because the monkey mind dwells longer on that object (it holds on to the present "branch"). The consequence is a slow down in its switching speed to another mind object and back again. D: well said, Tep. Howard may perhaps not agree .. (?) --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Not entirely. I see it not so much a matter of "holding onto the present branch", which actually doesn't last all that long and cannot be sustained, making the "holding on" not really doable, but more a matter of largely ignoring most branches except those that are near-clones of the current branch. For example, consider meditating on the breath in a focused, samatha-bhavana manner: No two breaths are the same, and the sensations that make them up are varying in type and intensity, and while one is "holding onto the breath", actually many other phenomena arise and cease, but are given little to no attention. Moreover, the many varied sensations underlying "the breath" are, in strictly samatha meditation, paid little attention to but instead one "rides the waves of breath" allowing them to lull the mind into a deep calm. --------------------------------------------------------- It is the point of slowing down , like driving a car switching from the fourth to the third gear similar to from beta to alpha brain waves.. ( ...the second gear would correspond to Jhana and Theta) T: A distracted mind quickly switches from one object to another as if it does not have time to rest -- working overtime, like Elaine D: comon is to us is the restlessness.. and some have difficulties to realize a break , this stillness of the thought process which has much to do with the second Jhana. Usually the mind jumps from one association to the other , interrupted only of moments when our interest (tanha ) is clinging for a whíle on one object, doesn't it? ------------------------------------------------------------ Howard: This jumping around pertains to thinking. That stops already in the 2nd jhana. (Understanding and willing and so on continue, however.) ---------------------------------------------------------- The art means to me to 'attract ' the mind on a neutral object like the breathe in order to slow down the restlessness and having more /the time to see 'what is going on'..in the direction of insight.. Oh.. may there be more members to recognize and state their problem with the ' working overtime' mind ;-)) Tep: Just ignore the above if it does not make sense to you. ;-) D: thanks for your meaningful feedback, Tep ;-) with Metta Dieter ============================= With metta, Howard #81662 From: "colette" Date: Thu Jan 24, 2008 10:21 am Subject: Re: THE MIND OF NOWNESS ksheri3 Good Morning Alex, thanx for the advice HOWEVER: > I must ask if you've read anything concerning the > > Brahmlakoka where you will find "The Brahma world is the only world > > devoid of women (DhA.i.270); women who develop the jhanas in this > > world can be born among the Brahmaparisajja but not among the > > Mahabrahmas (VibhA.437f)." HOW do you feel about this > > EXCLUSIONARY "concept" <.....>? ----- Alex: Read what the BUDDHA has said rather then the commentaries (which > often lead of base and may be Mara's invention). The above is bull, > there were lay anagamin women who would be reborn in high Pure > Abodes, which are MUCH higher than MahaBrahman of the 1st Jhanic > plane. ------------------- colette: CONTEXT CONTEXT CONTEXT or is that Location Location Location. <....> My non-existant understanding of the Brahmlakoka is that it is an Indian text and deals specifically with the Brahman ideology, conception. Like so many Hindu texts it certainly can and does transpose over into Buddhism. You bring to the table the concept of the MahaBrahman and you equate this with, to, the 1st Jhana. Since I don't know I've gotta just take it at face value and say that this would be a starting point and a direction to DISCOVER this conception in future research. You say: "Read what the BUDDHA has said rather then the commentaries" where I reply that in a few of the pieces I'm reading now I've begun to find the aggitation toward the Theravadan movement and the actual "dis-belief" in the Theravadan movement through such things as a comparison of the Lalitavistara and the Sarvastivada, as well as the Hinayana and Mahayana conception of the 3 Kayas. There are several spots where both authors COGNIZE that the Theravadans copied Sarvastivadan material AND THAT the people that did the actual transposing, copying, were BIASED in their own ways toward the teachings, and that they certainly "colored" te material they were copying to suit their own purposes. With that as the foundation THEN we must ask: can we really be sure that anything in text or in the canons is or are actual quotations? We can get close to actual quotations but are they really quotations? <....> In Buddhism we can find a recent tirade that I had here concerning the monks that were not allowed into the cave during the first turning of the wheel to discuss what was going to be placed into the canon and what was going to be discarded. Thanx for the reply. I've gotta go catch up on some research but will try to get back to this post later today. toodles, colette #81663 From: "colette" Date: Thu Jan 24, 2008 10:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Alleged Slowing Down of Mind States .. The Monkey Mind Model.... ksheri3 Hi Dieter, In my flitting research I now only have two pages left that I can print today so I breezed in here to see what's up where I found your reply at the top. I AM PREDJUDICED AND BIASED in this context since there isn't a person alive that can take away my confidence and belief in PRANAYAMA AS A MEANS TO or A METHODOLOGY TO calm the mind's thoughts. I've practiced pranayama in the early 80s when I was young and in a very good athletic condition so my cardiovascular system was clean and clear. You can call me a poster child for the benefits of breathing properly and for the truth found in Yogas and through Yogas. oops, only a minute left. thanx. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Dieter Möller wrote: > > Hi Tep, Alex, James, Howard and all, > > you wrote : > > Tep: Dieter relies on science to define mind speed in terms of the frequency of brain waves. Howard, on the other hand, relates mind speed to ease of observation that is due to "heightened clarity" during a meditation. You both are right in two different aspects of > the same situation. > > D: not really , Howard ( Hi Howard, hoping to express your point ;- ) ) rejects that speed has anything to do with 'to calm body and mind 'as stated in the suttas. > There is one , actually more important fact to speed: the frequency of breathing and its slowing down due to lower activity . <.....> #81664 From: "Alex" Date: Thu Jan 24, 2008 6:17 pm Subject: Re: THE MIND OF NOWNESS truth_aerator Hi Colette, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "colette" wrote: > > Good Morning Alex, > > You say: "Read what the BUDDHA has said rather then the commentaries" > where I reply that in a few of the pieces I'm reading now I've begun > to find the aggitation toward the Theravadan movement and the > actual "dis-belief" in the Theravadan movement through such things as > a comparison of the Lalitavistara and the Sarvastivada, as well as > the Hinayana and Mahayana conception of the 3 Kayas. >>> Read the most original material (4 Nikayas) and don't read the sectarian works (AP & VsM). >>> > can we really be sure that anything in text or in the canons is or > are actual quotations? > > We can get close to actual quotations but are they really quotations? > >>> 4 main nikayas are generally considered to be the oldest. Sure they contain some later addons, but for the most part they are the most authentic. Another thing is that pay attention to the themes MOST FREQUENTLY found in the nikayas. For example, Enlightment isn't about "Insight Knowledges" it is about destructions of the Asavas. Another thing: The mind (Citta) is what is timeless and is in Nibbana http://www.attan.com/17.html The Truth about Anatta http://www.attan.com/anatta.html Atta in Atthakathas that Theravadins don't want you to know. These commentaries predate Theravada http://www.attan.com/att.html What soul hates don't want you to know: http://www.attan.com/soul.html The mind (citta) in Buddhism: http://www.attan.com/citta.html Just a few things. It really opened my eyes. > <....> In Buddhism we can find a recent tirade that I had here > concerning the monks that were not allowed into the cave during the > first turning of the wheel to discuss what was going to be placed > into the canon and what was going to be discarded. > > Thanx for the reply. I've gotta go catch up on some research but will > try to get back to this post later today. > > toodles, > colette > The different Abhidhamma pitaka traditions are acknowledged to be later parts of the canon which were not in existence at the time of the first council and they post date the Sutta and Vinaya pitakas. There are considerable variations between the different philosophical traditions. The Theravada tradition held that there were only four realities rupa, citta, cetasaka and Nibbana, whereas the Sarvastiva da tradition held that there were five realities and included space a ka sa as a fifth reality. Also whilst the Theravada tradition held that only the present moment `existed' when things were perceived, the Sarva stiva da tradition held that things `existed' in the past, present and future. This last view accounts for the name of the tradition which means `all exists'. Due to this it is natural that the philosophical texts vary in their contents. Despite sharing a common interest in philosophical analysis. Indeed the differences between the traditions form the basis for a Theravada tradition text, the Katthavattu or `Points of controversy' which outlines the differences between the traditions as seen from a Theravada viewpoint. There is a further question which is worth addressing here is. `What parts of the Nikaya Buddhist canon are also accepted by Mahayana Buddhist traditions?' Interestingly enough though the question becomes not really what are accepted texts, so much as what are texts that interest different traditions. The Sutta texts for instance are accepted as genuine by the Mahayana tradition, but they are of little interest to the Mahayana it seems. However, almost all the traditions agree on the importance of the Dhammapada as the essence of the Buddha's teachings. The Vinaya pitaka is also a commonly held part of the early canon. Although that majority of East Asian and Himalayan traditions follow the Sarva stiva da Vinaya rather than the Theravada Vinaya, however there are in theory no major differences. This is of course quite separate from the question of how the Vinaya is interpreted which evidently varies widely between the Northern and Southern traditions. The Abhidhamma contains almost no texts which are common between Nikaya Buddhists, let alone between the Nikaya Buddhists and the Mahayana Buddhists. However, there is a similar fascination with philosophy in all the traditions. http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebsut059.htm - Lots Of Metta, Alex #81665 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Jan 24, 2008 6:46 pm Subject: Re: Alleged Slowing Down of Mind States .. The Monkey Mind Model.... dhammanusara Hi Dieter (Howard and others), - Thank you so much for giving me an elaboration on speed of the mind and on meditation too. Now I understand it better. >Dieter: >There is one , actually more important fact to speed: the frequency of breathing and its slowing down due to lower activity . T: Can the slowing down of the breathing be due to calmer consciousness? You know, 'nama paccaya rupam'. >D: It is the point of slowing down , like driving a car switching from the fourth to the third gear similar to from beta to alpha brain waves.. ( ...the second gear would correspond to Jhana and Theta) T: Hmmm .. I am not yet clear about how the brain waves are relevant or relating to "mind speed". But we may want to leave it for another discussion, maybe? >D: ... comon is to us is the restlessness.. and some have difficulties to realize a break , this stillness of the thought process which has much to do with the second Jhana. T: I only know that in the 2nd jhana there are no thoughts(vitakka vicara), even kusala ones. >D: Usually the mind jumps from one association to the other , interrupted only of moments when our interest (tanha ) is clinging for a wh�le on one object, doesn't it? T: Yes, it does cling for a while on an object. >D: The art means to me to 'attract ' the mind on a neutral object like the breathe in order to slow down the restlessness and having more /the time to see 'what is going on'..in the direction of insight.. T: That agrees very well with Ajaan Thanissaro in his 40 Dhamma talks at Wat Metta (2003). Many thanks to you for the interesting discussion subject, Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Dieter M�ller wrote: > > Hi Tep, Alex, James, Howard and all, > > you wrote : > > Tep: Dieter relies on science to define mind speed in terms of the frequency of brain waves. Howard, on the other hand, relates mind speed to ease of observation that is due to "heightened clarity" during a meditation. You both are right in two different aspects of > the same situation. > > #81666 From: LBIDD@... Date: Thu Jan 24, 2008 6:51 pm Subject: Outline of Purification of View V.6 lbidd2 Hi all, 18. When he has quite cleared up his discerning of materiality, then the immaterial states become evident to him through one of three aspects, that is, through contact, through feeling, or through consciousness. How? Larry: The three aspects is the discerning of one of the three (contact, feeling, or consciousness) first, and then discerning the 4 immaterial states if contact comes first or the other 3 immaterial states if feeling or consciousness comes first. Contact and volition are counted together but contact is always noted. This arises dependent on the method whereby materiality is discerned. For example: 19. When he discerns the [four primary] elements in the way beginning 'The earth element has the characteristic of hardness', contact becomes evident to him as the first conjunction. Then the feeling associated with that as the feeling aggregate, the associated perception as the perception aggregate, the associated volition together with the aforesaid contact as the formations aggregate, and the associated consciousness as the consciousness aggregate. Larry: The remainder of paragraph 19 and 20, 21,and 22 delineate how this arises using various methods of discerning materiality as discussed previously. It seems to me that the intent of this exercise is to both experience all the various kinds of nama and rupa and to organize those experiences according to basic relationships in order to come to a comprehensive view of reality. The idea is not simply to note "this is a reality", "that is a reality", but to understand the whole thing on a basic 'inventory' level. 23. Now it is only when he has become quite sure about discerning materiality in this way that immaterial states become quite evident to him in the three aspects. Therefore he should only undertake the task of discerning the immaterial states after he has completed that, not otherwise. If he leaves off discerning materiality when, say, one or two material states have become evident in order to begin discerning the immaterial, then he falls from his meditation subject like the mountain cow already described under the Development of the Earth Kasina. But if he undertakes the task of discerning the immaterial after he is already quite sure about discerning materiality thus, then his meditation subject comes to growth, increase and perfection. Larry: This method may be too ridged and formalistic for some sensibilities. If so, take from it what you can. The key point is to understand deeply, on an experiential level, that all there is is nama and rupa. Larry #81667 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Jan 24, 2008 6:58 pm Subject: Re: Ignorance......wrong concentration buddhatrue Hi Jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi James (and others to whom I owe replies) > In an earlier post you said: > "James: Because kusala can't be developed in daily life without > meditation as a support. The unconcentrated mind can't develop kusala > in daily life because the asavas (underlying tendencies) toward greed, > hatred, and delusion are too strong. The only way to counteract these > strong tendencies of the mind is to develop concentration." > > I still think that the holding of a view of this nature would be an > obstacle to the development of kusala in one's daily life. Kusala comes in degrees. Sure, some kusala could be developed in daily life, without meditation, just by observing the precepts. Also, listening to the Dhamma and learning the value of non-greed, non-hate, and non-delusion could condition an increase in kusala in daily life. It could, and probably would, result in a favorable rebirth in a deva realm. However, the type of penetrative insight which completely eliminates the defilements cannot be achieved without meditation practice (Right Mindfulness and Right Concentration). Glad that you can take a rest from your travels. Hope you have a peaceful and enjoyable time with Sarah. Metta, James #81668 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Jan 24, 2008 7:04 pm Subject: Re: Lessons in Detachment, Ch 5, no 2. scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, Thanks for the reply: S: "I just remembered K.Sujin gave the example of how there may be a subtle trying to be aware now because of the deep-rooted tendency. It's not right, because the viriya is not balanced - there's an over-striving as a result of silabbataparamasa, only eradicated by the sotapanna. However, as I wrote yesterday, not wrong view involved." Scott: This is a very good point. In particular I am struck by the importance of balance in the constellation of mental factors. The level of discourse wherein the question of the existence of a person, or of the relevance of anatta is shifted rather obliquely here. When it is only a question of the presence of and balance of mental factors (which I believe it is), then it is clear why certain outcomes arise or don't arise. The arguments for deliberate practise don't revolve around someone who practises, nor do they revolve around someone who doesn't practise. They revolve only around the dhammas which are in play. The development of kusala dhammas is only a function of the presence and balance, and the interactions and conditional relations, of these particular dhammas. What do you think? Sincerely, Scott. #81669 From: LBIDD@... Date: Thu Jan 24, 2008 7:25 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Outline of Purification of View V.5 lbidd2 Hi Nina, Thank you for the very abundant reply to my question on prompted consciousness. To simplify, let's say whenever there is a prompt there is an explicit or implicit "should". Where ever there is a "should" there is an "I" or a "you". In other words, self view. However, even with that implicit self view there still can arise a prompted kusala citta, even insight. That is how this practice works. That is why Buddhaghosa can say "he should give attention over and over again to materiality only". Meditation, at least in the beginning, is very much about prompted consciousness. I would venture to say that even a dhamma talk can be a prompt to experience realities. Prompted insight doesn't necessarily arise, but it can arise, given calm, patience, and intelligence. Larry #81670 From: "Phil" Date: Thu Jan 24, 2008 7:52 pm Subject: Re: Ignorance......wrong concentration philofillet Hi James > However, the type of penetrative insight which completely eliminates > the defilements cannot be achieved without meditation practice (Right > Mindfulness and Right Concentration). Maybe we should say that it could conceivably happen, since there are examples of it in the texts. But "could conceivably" seems a waste of the potential we have in this rare human realm birth to listen to the Buddha's instructions and increase the probabilities at least a little. (And as always I say that I think it seems somewhat contradictory for people to say that in this day and age people don't have enough wisdom to understand suttas on their own and yet can consider those arahant-while-cooking sort of anecdotes relevant.) Metta, Phil p.s come to think of it maybe even that "could conceivably" is not true because the suddenly enlightened person had probably done a lot of meditation leading up to the sudden awakening. #81671 From: "Phil" Date: Thu Jan 24, 2008 7:56 pm Subject: Respnse to Re: my parody and the reasons Part 2. philofillet Hi Sukin > *Sukin: Yes, I know that I sometimes judge `Buddhists' too harshly. > Also I'm reminded at this moment about Phil's insistence on how people > can benefit from a more superficial understanding of what the Buddha > taught. Yes, I'm happy that they do! However I'm certain that the > Buddha didn't at any time, wanted any of audience to understand > anything at the level of Me, Mine or I. This would go against the > purpose of his Teachings. I just wanted to thank you for this. My train wasn't running last night due to some accident and I had to walk home, two hours in a cold, cold wind. And I thought about your post almost the whole time! Needless to say I could go on for hours, but won't today. But thanks for energizing my walk. (I always used to have a can of booze on such forced marches.) Metta, Phil #81672 From: "Phil" Date: Thu Jan 24, 2008 8:04 pm Subject: Re: Hello im new member here. philofillet Hi Steven > i was starting to spiral out of control with drinking alcohol and > smoking cigarettes but i am trying very hard to stop these things with > the help of the Dhammapada. You forgot porn. haha just joking. that's me I can really relate to your struggle. I think the way Dhamma helps guide us out of harmful habits is really wonderful. I look forward to discussing this with you. You might find that some folks here will tell you that if there is too much clinging to self involved in your efforts, it will all be for naught. They have an interesting point that should be considered...but not when Mara is right in our face! Talk to you later. Metta, Phil #81673 From: "Phil" Date: Thu Jan 24, 2008 8:18 pm Subject: Re: Hello im new member here. philofillet Hi again >You might find that some folks here will tell > you that if there is too much clinging to self involved in your > efforts, it will all be for naught. They have an interesting point that > should be considered...but not when Mara is right in our face! I correct myself - they don't just "have a point that should be considered", they are talking about the really deep heart of the Buddha's teaching. But there has to be a lot of first aid treatment before we get at the deep cure. Metta, Phil #81674 From: "crosby_s" Date: Thu Jan 24, 2008 8:32 pm Subject: Re: Hello im new member here. crosby_s Hi phil, This message for phil and the group. >You might find that some folks here will tell > you that if there is too much clinging to self involved in your > efforts, it will all be for naught. They have an interesting point that > should be considered...but not when Mara is right in our face! Im not sure what you mean by this sentence can u give me more meaning.The Dhammapada has given me some insight into what i have done wrong in the past and it helps the mind to control bad ways or destructive ways.Take this verse from the Dhammapada; Verse 38. Wisdom Does Not Grow If the Mind Wavers One of unsteady mind, who doesn't know True Dhamma, who is of wavering confidence wisdom fails to win. Explanation: If the mind of a person keeps on wavering, and if a person does not know the doctrine, if one's enthusiasm keeps on fluctuating or flagging,, the wisdom of such a person does not grow. This helped me too see clearly that my mind wavers way too much. So i am going to focus on an unwavering mind.An example is alcohol and drugs we all know these things are bad but we keep doing them our mind wavers, also in this verse; Verse 36. Protected Mind Leads To Happiness The mind is very hard to see and find, it falls on what it wants. One who's wise should guard the mind, a guarded mind brings happiness. Explanation: The mind moves about so fast it is difficult to get hold of it fully. It is swift. It has a way of focusing upon whatever it likes. It is good and of immense advantage to tame the mind. The tame mind brings bliss. This helped me too, its just the truth and i love this about the Dhammapada.Sorry this was a long post and please tell me your opinion. With Metta:) Steven. #81675 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Thu Jan 24, 2008 9:40 pm Subject: Re: Hello im new member here. abhidhammika Dear Stephen How are you? Theravada is a good choice you made. It represents the oldest original teachings of Gotama the Buddha as preserved in Pali Tipitaka. It is rich in intellectual verbalisations of realities as the Buddha discovered. And, Theravada is equally rich in methods for transformation of our behavior, our mind, and our views. After familiarizing yourself with teachings from Dhammapada, you can take a direct plunge in Vipassana by following the instructions in the Practical Vipassana book by the late Mahasi Sayadaw, who was one of the most learned scholar monks of Burma and whose teachings conform to Theravada original teachings. Formal meditation in the sense of formal development of each component of the Noble Eightfold Path is the Fourth Noble Truth from the Four Noble Truths discovered, and declared in his very First Discourse, by Gotama the Buddha. So it is very delicious, and you can't go wrong by embarking on the Noble Practice Path (Ariyamaggapa.tipadaa). Cheers! Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "crosby_s" wrote: > > Hi my name is Steven and i live in Sydney Australia, i am 27 years old > and i am very interested in Buddhism and the Dhammapada and its > teachings from Buddha.I am new to Buddhism, i have tried to learn or > make Buddhism a part of my life in the past but failed.I would like to > make Buddhism especially Theravada tradition a part of my life now as > I am starting off with the Dhammapada first as i > think i should know what the Buddha taught, i have explanations for > all the verses and if i am troubled by any verses i shall ask > questions. As for the Practical Vipassana book, i am very much wanting to meditate and join a retreat someday and this book, and maybe some others are a good starting point i think.Sorry for this post being so long and involved and thank you if you have read this and reply to me. With Metta Steven. > #81676 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jan 24, 2008 9:43 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello im new member here. sarahprocter... Hi Steven, I'd just like to also thank you for your super introduction. It's not too long at all, in fact it's very modest (as you'll soon learn by DSG standards!!). I just saw your second message and that's great. I was just planning to suggest that you give a verse every day (or whenever you feel like it), with your comments. Actually, you help me to see that even when we find some lines very inspiring, it's useful for others to point out the practical significance, otherwise we get accused of talking 'technicalities', if they don't see it in the same way:). We all have a lot of ups and downs in life. The great thing about the Dhamma is that it brings us right back to the present moment. What's gone is gone, the future hasn't come, but we can be inspired and understand more about the truth now. Thanks again for all your helpful and interesting info. Jon & I live in Hong Kong, but we often travel to Sydney. Jon's Australian as are some others here, including Ken H. [Whereabouts in Sydney do you live?] Look forward to discussing more on Dhammapada verses with you and others. Metta, Sarah --- crosby_s wrote: > Hi my name is Steven and i live in Sydney Australia, <....> #81677 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jan 24, 2008 10:19 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Removal of distracting thoughts. sarahprocter... Dear Nina & Alex, --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Alex, > you refer to: > > MN20 Vitakkasanthana Sutta--- <...> > N: I read the Co. and wrote about it, but I do not see it in past > posts. .... See: "Vitakka-Santhana Sutta, MN20 (Removal of Distracting Thoughts)" in U.P. #20169, 35343, 35375, 35402, 35428, 36242, 36426, 36537, 52260, 52315, 52394, 52543, 64743, 75593 I look forward to your further discussion. Metta, Sarah ====== #81678 From: "Bud (Yen Hoe)" Date: Thu Jan 24, 2008 10:30 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Hello im new member here. budcyh Dear Stephen Referring to the mail below by Suan, Mahasi Vipasana meditation is started in Burma. If you really like to go for the real Buddha teaching, then you consider on the Anapanasati meditation. with Metta Bud :) On Jan 25, 2008 1:40 PM, abhidhammika wrote: > > > Dear Stephen > > How are you? > > Theravada is a good choice you made. It represents the oldest > original teachings of Gotama the Buddha as preserved in Pali > Tipitaka. It is rich in intellectual verbalisations of realities as > the Buddha discovered. <...> #81679 From: "crosby_s" Date: Thu Jan 24, 2008 10:45 pm Subject: About the Dhammapada. crosby_s What meaning the Dhammapada has for me? My first impression is, the Dhammapada is a truth the whole earth should listen to and understand. Im reading it slowly with an open heart and open mind, making sure i understand it and reflect on its verses.I am still Reading The Pairs or Twin Verses.So far this verse has really helped me see things more clearly; Verse 36. Protected Mind Leads To Happiness The mind is very hard to see and find, it falls on what it wants. One who's wise should guard the mind, a guarded mind brings happiness. Explanation: The mind moves about so fast it is difficult to get hold of it fully. It is swift. It has a way of focusing upon whatever it likes. It is good and of immense advantage to tame the mind. The tame mind brings bliss. Explanation by Ven. W Sarada Maha Thero. So That was my first post, hope you enjoyed it. With Metta Steven. #81680 From: "crosby_s" Date: Thu Jan 24, 2008 10:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello im new member here. crosby_s Hi Sarah > > We all have a lot of ups and downs in life. The great thing about the > Dhamma is that it brings us right back to the present moment. What's gone > is gone, the future hasn't come, but we can be inspired and understand > more about the truth now. > . [Whereabouts in Sydney do you > live?] > > I have had too many ups and downs in my life and its time i put it behind me and stop being so selfish.The Dhamma has brought me back to the present moment and to realise its truth, i like how you put that sentence together. I live in the west of Sydney Sarah, thanks for your reply. Metta Steven. #81681 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 25, 2008 1:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg]Re: Dhammapada, I. vs. 36. nilovg Dear Steven, Thank you very much. I add the story, I quote from the pali list. I also add a few remarks. Op 25-jan-2008, om 7:45 heeft crosby_s het volgende geschreven: > Verse 36. Protected Mind Leads To Happiness > The mind is very hard to see > and find, it falls on what it wants. > One who's wise should guard the mind, > a guarded mind brings happiness. > Explanation: The mind moves about so fast it is difficult to get hold > of it fully. It is swift. It has a way of focusing upon whatever it > likes. It is good and of immense advantage to tame the mind. The tame > mind brings bliss. > > Explanation by Ven. W Sarada Maha Thero. ------- Nina: Translated by Daw Mya Tin, M.A. Edited by Editorial Committee, Burma Tipitaka Association Rangoon, Burma, 1986 Courtesy of Nibbana.com Dhammapada Verse 36 Ukkanthitabhikkhu Vatthu Sududdasam sunipunam yatthakamanipatinam cittam rakketha medhavi cittam guttam sukhavaham. Verse 36: The mind is very difficult to see, very delicate and subtle; it moves and lands wherever it pleases. The wise one should guard his mind, for a guarded mind brings happiness. The Story of A Certain Disgruntled Bhikkhu While residing at the Jetavana monastery, the Buddha uttered Verse (36) of this book, with reference to a young disgruntled bhikkhu who was the son of a banker. Once, there lived in Savatthi, the son of a banker. This young man asked the bhikkhu, who used to come to his house for alms, what he should do to be liberated from the ills of life. The bhikkhu instructed him to divide his property into three parts; one part to do business with, one part to support the family and one part to give in charity. He did as he was told and again asked what else should be done next. So he was further instructed; first to take refuge in the Three Gems* and to observe the five precepts; secondly, to observe the ten precepts; and thirdly, to renounce the world and enter the Buddhist religious Order. The young man complied with all these instructions and became a bhikkhu. As a bhikkhu, he was taught the Abhidhamma by one teacher and the Vinaya by another. Being taught in this way, he felt that there was too much to be learnt, that the disciplinary rules were too strict and too many, so much so that there was not enough freedom even to stretch out one's hands. He thought that it might be better to return to the life of a householder. As a result of doubt and discontent, he became unhappy and neglected his duties; he also became thin and emaciated. When the Buddha came to know about this, he said to the young bhikkhu, "if you can only control your mind, you will have nothing more to control; so guard your own mind." Then the Buddha spoke in verse as follows: Verse 36: The mind is very difficult to see, very delicate and subtle; it moves and lands wherever it pleases. The wise one should guard his mind, for a guarded mind brings happiness. At the end of the discourse, the young bhikkhu and many others attained arahatship. ------ N: In oreder to guard the mind, I think that we should learn more about the mind. What is it? There is not one mind that stays, there are many different mind-moments. We can learn in our daily life when there is a mind-moment with attachment or aversion, and when with generosity and kindness. If we do not know anything about the mind, it cannot be guarded or tamed. Nina. #81682 From: "crosby_s" Date: Fri Jan 25, 2008 2:00 am Subject: [dsg]Re: Dhammapada, I. vs. 36. crosby_s Dear Nina, > ------ > N: In oreder to guard the mind, I think that we should learn more > about the mind. What is it? There is not one mind that stays, there > are many different mind-moments. We can learn in our daily life when > there is a mind-moment with attachment or aversion, and when with > generosity and kindness. If we do not know anything about the mind, > it cannot be guarded or tamed. > Nina. > > S. Very true Nina, i suppose we have to learn about the mind first before we are able to tame it.That sounds like hard task. Also am i replying correctly as in outlay, im new to this group type thing and am not sure if i should leave all the text you typed or just what i am replying to. Metta Steven. #81683 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 25, 2008 2:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg]Re: Dhammapada, I. vs. 36. nilovg Dear Steven, Op 25-jan-2008, om 11:00 heeft crosby_s het volgende geschreven: > Very true Nina, i suppose we have to learn about the mind first > before we are able to tame it.That sounds like hard task. ------ N: Not easy, but it can be done, very gradually. As we read: the mind is hard to see. It is subtle, and understanding of it can be developed. ----- > > S: Also am i replying correctly as in outlay, im new to this group > type > thing and am not sure if i should leave all the text you typed or just > what i am replying to. ------- N: You did well. We can leave part of the post that we are going to answer. Nina. #81684 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 25, 2008 3:15 am Subject: the present moment nilovg Dear Alex, TG and all interested in the present moment. Alex, I noticed that you quote many, many suttas to bring forward some points. A suggestion, if you like: quote part and then add your own personal experience. Then you relate the sutta to your daily life. This is very interesting. You may think that I am obsessed by the present moment. Here is what I heard on tape, taken in Chiengmai: Kh S:< Is there anything else but visible object experienced through the eye-door, sound experienced through the ear-door, odour, flavour, tangible object experienced through the relevant doorways, one at a time, and mental object experienced through the mind-door? There are no other dooways but these six. When seeing arises, there is no tasting of a flavour, because there can be only one citta at a time. Happiness and sorrow arise because of what is experienced through these six doors. We are forever seeking pleasant objects, it never is enough. The delicious flavour tasted this morning at breakfast is gone and now we are seeking another pleasant object. Attachment is the cause of dukkha, this is the second noble Truth. > We read about the four noble truths in many suttas but these relate to our life now. We have to know this very moment while citta experiences an object through one of the six doors, otherwise we get stuck in the theory. Understanding of this moment is actually the development of the eightfold Path, right now. The eightfold Path is not some theory we can think about. Nina. #81685 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jan 25, 2008 4:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello im new member here. sarahprocter... Hi Steven (Alex, TG, Ven Samahita & all), --- crosby_s wrote: > >Sarah: We all have a lot of ups and downs in life. The great thing about the > > Dhamma is that it brings us right back to the present moment. What's > gone > > is gone, the future hasn't come, but we can be inspired and understand > > more about the truth now. .... >Steven: I have had too many ups and downs in my life and its time i put it behind me and stop being so selfish.The Dhamma has brought me back to > the present moment and to realise its truth, i like how you put that > sentence together. ... S: I like your comments too. The point is that there is no moment, no truth which can be known, other than the present one. This is why the Truths the Buddha taught all refer to what can be understood now. Otherwise, it'll just be thinking about a story of the Buddha's teachings. En Samahita included some relevant quotes in his message below: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/52000 "Focus on the Present... The Past is Not Real! The forest monks do not lament over the past, they neither yearn for what has yet to come, they just maintain themselves here in the present, therefore is their appearance so calm & serene! Samyutta Nikaya I, 5 Let go of the past, relinquish of the future, stay in the present, and cross over to the further shore of all becoming & existence! With mind wholly liberated & released, you shall never return to birth & death! Dhammapada 348 The past should neither be longed for nor dwelled in and the future neither desired, searched nor urged; what is past, not real anymore, is dead & gone, and the future, not real now, have yet to come! Majjhima Nikaya III, 131 Whatever happened in the past is quite irrelevant now! The melancholic longing for a Past, that never can nor will return, is therefore just futile masochism! Let the past be past, let it go, relinquish it fully... Let the future come as it may come! Don't push it! Remain mentally right here in the present: Aware!" ***** Sarah: Actually, now I look at the Dhammapada verse, I believe it is stressing that attachment to past, future AND present mental and physical phenomena must be relinquished. Another translation I have(Daw Mya Tin) reads: "Give up the past, give up the future, give up the present. Having reached the end of existences, with a mind freed from all(conditioned things), you will not again undergo birth and decay." The point however, is that such 'giving up', such abandoning of attachment, can only ever occur at the present moment with understanding and awareness. This what was being stressed in the Ven's message above, I believe. Metta, Sarah p.s Steven, your layout and trimming of past text, just keeping a little for context, is perfect. A good 'model' for other new members (and a few oldies too:-)). ======== #81686 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Fri Jan 25, 2008 4:56 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (73) nichiconn dear Friends, Part 23 16. Mahaanipaato 1. Sumedhaatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa 464. "U.t.thehi puttaka ki.m soci, tena dinnaasi vaara.navatimhi; raajaa aniikaratto, abhiruupo tassa tva.m dinnaa. 462. "Stand up, child. What [do you want] with grieving? You are bestowed in Vaara.navatii. King Anikaratta, [who is] handsome, [is there]. You are bestowed upon him. Ki.m socitenaati "pabbajja.m na labhissaamii"ti ki.m socanena. Dinnaasi vaara.navatimhiiti vaara.navatiinagare dinnaa asi. "Dinnaasii"ti vatvaa punapi "tva.m dinnaa"ti vacana.m da.lha.m dinnabhaavadassanattha.m. 462. What [do you want] with grieveing (socitena)? means: what [do you want] with being sorrowful (socanena), saying, "I will go forth. I will obtain permission." You are ('si) bestowed in Vaara.navatii means: you are (asi) bestowed in the city of Vaara.navatii. Having said, you are bestowed (dinnaa 'si), the repetition of the phrase you are bestowed (tva.m dinnaa) is an emphasis of the indication of the fact she was bestowed. 466. "Rajje aa.naa dhanamissariya.m, bhogaa sukhaa daharikaasi; bhu~njaahi kaamabhoge, vaareyya.m hotu te putta. 464. "In kingship, there is authority, wealth, power, happy enjoyments. You are young. Enjoy the enjoyments of sensual pleasures. Let your marriage take place, child." Rajje aa.naati anikarattassa rajje tava aa.naa pavattati. Dhanamissariyanti imasmi.m kule patikule ca dhana.m issariya~nca, bhogaa sukhaa ativiya i.t.thaa bhogaati sabbamida.m tuyha.m upa.t.thita.m hatthagata.m. Daharikaasiiti taru.nii caasi, tasmaa bhu~njaahi kaamabhoge. Tena kaara.nena vaareyya.m hotu te puttaati yojanaa. 464. In kingship there is authority means: in Anikaratta's kingship, your authority exists. Wealth, power means: in this family and in the family of your husband, thre is wealth and power. Happy enjoyments, enjoyments that are hight disired, all this has arrived, comes into your possession. You are yound (daharikaa) means: and you are yond (taru.nii); therefore, enjoy the enjoyments of sensual pleasures. For that reason, there is the connection wit let your marriage take place, child. 467. "Atha ne bha.nati sumedhaa, maa edisikaani bhavagatamasaara.m; pabbajjaa vaa hohiti, mara.na.m vaa me na ceva vaareyya.m. 465. Then Sumedhaa spoke to them: "May such things not be. Existence is insubstantial. Either there will be going forth for me or death, not marriage. Neti maataapitaro. Maa edisikaaniiti evaruupaani rajje aa.naadiini maa bhavantu. Kasmaati ce aaha "bhagavatamasaaran"ti-aadi. 465. To them means: to her mother and father. May such things not be means: may there not be such authority in kingship [for me]. If anyone asks why, existence is unsubstantial, etc, is said. .. to be continued, connie #81687 From: "crosby_s" Date: Fri Jan 25, 2008 4:59 am Subject: Bhikkus battle tobacco, alcohol lobbies. crosby_s Colombo, Sri Lanka -- Sri Lanka's Buddhist monks see their fight against tobacco and alcohol abuse as more urgent than the war that the Government of President Mahinda Rajapaksa is prosecuting against the LTTE. "At least 50,000 people have died due to the conflict in the past 25 years. But, every year about 40,000 die in Sri Lanka due to illnesses from alcohol and tobacco use," observed Hadigalle Wimalasara Thera, a member of the JHU which provides crucial support to the Government. "Those who talk about human rights are strangely silent when it comes to an issue like this which kills and harms much more people," added the Buddhist monk, taking a dig at the non-Governmental organisations (NGOs) that have tagged the JHU as 'extremist' for the support it gives to the Government to find a military solution to the ethnic conflict. While refraining from alcohol and drugs is one of the five precepts (Panchasila) in Buddhism, consumption of alcohol in Sri Lanka is one of the highest in the world on a per capita basis. rest of story at http://www.buddhistchannel.tv/index.php?id=43,5791,0,0,1,0 This is very sad for Sri Lanka i hope the Bhikkus win this battle. We here in Australia have a big problem with alcohol and tobacco i wish it was not made or grown.It is an evil substance(s), my family drinks i wish they wouldn't.I drink but i am aiming to stop completely never to touch it again and have stopped drinking and smoking for one week so far, i was starting to become a problem drinker as in i would not be able to stop once i started and the smoking was getting out of hand, it was a pack a day.My grandfather used to say alcohol was the downfall of the working class, i am starting to see his point.Sorry if this seemed like a gloomy post, but i think what the Bhikkus are doing is testament to there wisdom and it struck a chord with me. With Metta Steven #81688 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 25, 2008 6:19 am Subject: Alone with Dhamma, Ch 1, no 3. nilovg Dear friends, While we were in Sarnath, the place of the Buddha’s first sermon, we were given the opportunity to pay respect to the Buddha’s relics which are kept in a ten meter deep cellar. A monk had to descend into it to fetch them. Since Lodewijk just had his eightieth birthday, Acharn Sujin had asked us to carry the relics in turn towards the altar, and Lodewijk also carried them back to the shrine at the end of the ceremony. Afterwards we offered Sangha Dåna to the monks. Lodewijk spoke the following words of thanksgiving to them: Venerable Monks, On behalf of this group of Thai and foreign pilgrims under the spiritual leadership of Acharn Sujin Borharnwanaket and the practical leadership of Mr. Suwat Chansuvithiyanant , I wish to thank you for giving us this opportunity to perform Sangha Dana and to pay you our deep respect. Your community of monks reminds us of the vital importance of the Sangha, the third of the Triple Gem, now and in the future. Last week, my wife Nina and I celebrated my eightieth birthday by paying respect to the place Kuru in New Delhi, where the Lord Buddha preached the Satipaììhåna Sutta. Nina recited the text to me and I was, again, struck by the power of this Sutta and its significance for our daily life. This morning, I received the most precious birthday present one can wish for: the honour to carry the relics of the Lord Buddha. The two most important and happiest events in my life were marrying Nina and our encounter with Buddhism through the hands of Acharn Sujin who, ever since, has guided us on the Path and who, during this tour, tirelessly explained the Dhamma to us, wherever and whenever possible. Looking back on my life, I feel distressed by the amount of accumulated akusala committed in the past. I feel distressed by dukkha, by the burden of the five Khandhas of grasping, so well explained in the teachings: rúpa khandha, vedanå khandha (feeling), saññå khandha (remembrance), saòkhåra khandha (mental formations) and viññåùa khandha. I feel distressed by the destructive power of the five hindrances, so forcefully put forth in the teachings, which are: desire of sense pleasures, aversion, restlessness and worry, sloth and torpor and doubt. And yet, I understand at least in theory, that regret of the past makes no sense, that there is no self in the past, and that it is understanding of the present moment that counts. And, in fact, I have every reason to be grateful. Every day, I am encouraged and inspired by Nina’s tireless efforts to understand the Dhamma and to help others to understand it. I was inspired by the courage of Nina’s father who recently passed away at the age of hundred and four and who, despite his incapacities of body and mind, never gave up and always looked towards the future. And above all, who should be distressed when he hears the voice of the Lord Buddha: “Abandon evil, O monks. One can abandon evil, O monks. If it were impossible to abandon evil, I would not ask you to do so. But as it can be done, therefore, I say: Abandon evil!”, and similarly on cultivating the good. On our long journey towards wisdom, we need the support and the inspiration of the Sangha and therefore, I urge you, venerable monks, to persevere in your task of preserving and propagating the teachings. We thank you for giving us this opportunity to perform Sangha Dåna and as a token of our thanks, I wish to present to you, Venerable Head Monk, Acharn Sujin’s book, “A Survey of Paramattha Dhammas”, translated from Thai by Nina and recently published in Bangkok. It is a masterful, all encompassing treatise on the Dhamma and I hope that it will be of use to your community. ****** Nina. #81689 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 25, 2008 6:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Outline of Purification of View V.5 nilovg Hi Larry, Op 25-jan-2008, om 4:25 heeft LBIDD@... het volgende geschreven: > To simplify, let's say whenever there is a prompt there > is an explicit or implicit "should". Where ever there is a "should" > there is an "I" or a "you". In other words, self view. However, even > with that implicit self view there still can arise a prompted kusala > citta, even insight. That is how this practice works. That is why > Buddhaghosa can say "he should give attention over and over again to > materiality only". Meditation, at least in the beginning, is very much > about prompted consciousness. I would venture to say that even a > dhamma > talk can be a prompt to experience realities. Prompted insight doesn't > necessarily arise, but it can arise, given calm, patience, and > intelligence. ------- N: You use prompting in a sense different from sasankharika as explained in the Abhidhamma. Asankhaarika and sasankhaarika tell us about the quality of the kusala citta. When prompted it is with hesitation, not spontaneous like unprompted kusala citta. You use it as kusala citta arising after a good advice by a friend, like Buddhaghosa. This is in a different sense. Nina. #81690 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Fri Jan 25, 2008 7:03 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Hello im new member here. abhidhammika Dear Bud, Stephen, Alex, Phil, Nina, Sarah, Jon, Scott D, Mike N, Bob K How are you? Bud wrote: "If you really like to go for the real Buddha teaching, then you consider on the Anapanasati meditation." I like what you wrote. We must give the First Priority to the full Theravada teachings of Gotama the Buddha and of his Ariya Disciples such as Saariputta and Aanandaa.e Then, we can give the secondary priority to the transmitted teachings of the learned scholar monks such as the late Mahasi Sayadaw from Burma because it was their duty to transmit the original teachings truthfully as well as present modern commentaries on them which conform to those teachings of Gotama the Buddha. Then, if we could afford time, as the last priority we may read or listen to lay puthujjana teachers who provide their personal take on teachings which may or may not conform to the original Theravada teachings of Gotama the Buddha. Usually, such puthujjana teachers (ordained and non-ordained) may present choice cuts of the original Theravada teachings to suit their personal situations - without realizing that they have reduced the Buddha's teachings to their puthujjana level of understanding, and - without realizing that they were trying to equate their puthujjana understanding to the Noble Right View (Ariya Sammaaditthi). That has been a familiar unfortunate phenomenon throughout the very long history of Theravada Saasanaa since the Buddha's time (more than 2500 years). Aanapaanasati is my primary formal development of the Right Concentration as a compulsory component of the Nobel Eightfold Path (A.t.thangiko maggo as taught by the Buddha in his First Discourse, Dhammacakkapavattana Suttam). Please consult Mahasatipat.t.haana Suttam for complete range of formal development of the Right Mindfulness, the Right Concentration, and the Right Insight, starting with Aanaapaana Pabbam. By the way, I have memorized, and regularly recite, Aanaapaana Pabbam as a way of formal development of the Right Speech. Then, I follow the Buddha's instructions in Aanaapaana Pabbam to formally develop the Right Effort (Sammaavaayamo), the Right Mindfulness (Sammaasati), the Right Concentration (Sammaasamaadhi), and the Right Insight (Sammadi.t.thi, vipassanaa). Mahaasatipa.t.thaana Suttam instructs us NOT ONLY to be in the present moment, but also to prepare and practice for non-present moments as well. If lay puthujjana teachers and their lay followers think that to be in the present moment is all that Mahaasatipa.t.thaana Suttam teaches and prescribes, that type of thinking is the wrong thinking (Micchaasankappo, which is the opposite of the Right Thinking, Sammaasankappo). That is an unfortunate phenomenon of short-changing the Buddha's original teachings. Formal development of each component of the Noble Eightfold Path is compulsory and NOT NEGOTIABLE. Cheers! Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiolgy.org #81691 From: Dieter Möller Date: Fri Jan 25, 2008 9:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Alleged Slowing Down of Mind States .. The Monkey Mind Model.... moellerdieter Hi Howard, Tep, Alex, James .. you wrote : (Tep:I think the main aspect is in Dieter's description of the "monkey mind" (from Dhp). As I understand it, the mind speed is measured by how fast or slow the monkey mind switches from one "branch" to another. Like Howard observes, during a good meditation there is significant heightened clarity in the meditation object's characteristics --that is because the monkey mind dwells longer on that object (it holds on to the present "branch"). The consequence is a slow down in its switching speed to another mind object and back again. D: well said, Tep. Howard may perhaps not agree .. (?) ) 'Howard:Not entirely. I see it not so much a matter of "holding onto the present branch", which actually doesn't last all that long and cannot be sustained, making the "holding on" not really doable, but more a matter of largely ignoring most branches except those that are near-clones of the current branch. For example, consider meditating on the breath in a focused, samatha-bhavana manner: No two breaths are the same, and the sensations that make them up are varying in type and intensity, and while one is "holding onto the breath", actually many other phenomena arise and cease, but are given little to no attention. Moreover, the many varied sensations underlying "the breath" are, in strictly samatha meditation, paid little attention to but instead one "rides the waves of breath" allowing them to lull the mind into a deep calm. D: Howard , you refer to a different state of meditation .. to calm /to slown down (the fabrications/functions of ) body and mind means preparation , the beginning of meditation .. it is related to the 5 hindrances, esp. restlessness, which is so characteristic for our busy daily life. When a certain grade of ease and calmness is reached - 'neighbourhood concentration' - contemplation with clearer focus is possible . Whether we then focus on the 4 foundations of mindfulness respectively observe the rising and ceasing of phenomena or turn to absorbtion (Jhana) is another matter...there was no talk about lulling the mind.. I think it is an important issue in particular for our non -meditating friends.. Enough clues to revise your objection ? ;-) with Metta Dieter. #81692 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jan 25, 2008 4:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Alleged Slowing Down of Mind States .. The Monkey Mind Model.... upasaka_howard Hi, Dieter (and all) - In a message dated 1/25/2008 12:19:08 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, moellerdieter@... writes: Hi Howard, Tep, Alex, James .. you wrote : (Tep:I think the main aspect is in Dieter's description of the "monkey mind" (from Dhp). As I understand it, the mind speed is measured by how fast or slow the monkey mind switches from one "branch" to another. Like Howard observes, during a good meditation there is significant heightened clarity in the meditation object's characteristics --that is because the monkey mind dwells longer on that object (it holds on to the present "branch"). The consequence is a slow down in its switching speed to another mind object and back again. D: well said, Tep. Howard may perhaps not agree .. (?) ) 'Howard:Not entirely. I see it not so much a matter of "holding onto the present branch", which actually doesn't last all that long and cannot be sustained, making the "holding on" not really doable, but more a matter of largely ignoring most branches except those that are near-clones of the current branch. For example, consider meditating on the breath in a focused, samatha-bhavana manner: No two breaths are the same, and the sensations that make them up are varying in type and intensity, and while one is "holding onto the breath", actually many other phenomena arise and cease, but are given little to no attention. Moreover, the many varied sensations underlying "the breath" are, in strictly samatha meditation, paid little attention to but instead one "rides the waves of breath" allowing them to lull the mind into a deep calm. D: Howard , you refer to a different state of meditation .. to calm /to slown down (the fabrications/functions of ) body and mind means preparation , the beginning of meditation .. it is related to the 5 hindrances, esp. restlessness, which is so characteristic for our busy daily life. When a certain grade of ease and calmness is reached - 'neighbourhood concentration' - contemplation with clearer focus is possible . Whether we then focus on the 4 foundations of mindfulness respectively observe the rising and ceasing of phenomena or turn to absorbtion (Jhana) is another matter...there was no talk about lulling the mind.. I think it is an important issue in particular for our non -meditating friends.. Enough clues to revise your objection ? ;-) with Metta Dieter. ================================= My "bottom line" on this issue is that one does not under any circumstance cause an object of consciousness to be sustained. Certain mental activities can cause repetitions of given mental content, or, more precisely, can cause the arising of very similar objects of consciousness, and attention can be caused to be selective, but I do not believe in this "hanging onto a branch" business. Certainly, as wholesome factors increase during meditation and hindrances are lessened, there is greater patience with whatever is present and greater clarity of mental vision. Anything else is, I believe, mere appearance and not reality. With metta, Howard #81693 From: TGrand458@... Date: Fri Jan 25, 2008 5:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] the present moment TGrand458@... In a message dated 1/25/2008 4:15:56 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: You may think that I am obsessed by the present moment. Here is what I heard on tape, taken in Chiengmai: Kh S:< Is there anything else but visible object experienced through the eye-door, sound experienced through the ear-door, odour, flavour, tangible object experienced through the relevant doorways, one at a time, and mental object experienced through the mind-door? There are no other dooways but these six. When seeing arises, there is no tasting of a flavour, because there can be only one citta at a time. Happiness and sorrow arise because of what is experienced through these six doors. We are forever seeking pleasant objects, it never is enough. The delicious flavour tasted this morning at breakfast is gone and now we are seeking another pleasant object. Attachment is the cause of dukkha, this is the second noble Truth. > We read about the four noble truths in many suttas but these relate to our life now. We have to know this very moment while citta experiences an object through one of the six doors, otherwise we get stuck in the theory. Understanding of this moment is actually the development of the eightfold Path, right now. The eightfold Path is not some theory we can think about. Nina. ......................................................... Hi Nina I guess someone forgot to tell the Buddha that he should have focused more on the above. His teachings are so much more comprehensive than mere awareness of what is happening now...and so much more inspirational...and do so much include things like -- "contemplation about" past states, future states, events of far off places, peoples, material things, etc. You just focus on one piece of the puzzle and somehow thing that one piece is the whole picture. Its a good piece, I grant you that, but its overly obsessed on and that obsession obscures much of the overall sensibility and power of the Buddha's teaching IMO. Contemplation about the nature of things is just as important as awareness of present experiences IMO. TG #81694 From: Dieter Möller Date: Fri Jan 25, 2008 10:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Alleged Slowing Down of Mind States .. The Monkey Mind Model.... moellerdieter Hi Tep , and all you wrote: 'T: Can the slowing down of the breathing be due to calmer consciousness? You know, 'nama paccaya rupam'. D: you mean ' vinnaya paccaya nama /rupa' ? It is interesting here to refer to medical science (source Wikipedia): 'The autonomic nervous system (ANS) (or visceral nervous system) is the part of the peripheral nervous system that acts as a control system, maintaining homeostasis in the body. These maintenance activities are primarily performed without conscious control or sensation. The ANS has far reaching effects, including: heart rate, digestion, respiration rate, salivation, perspiration, diameter of the pupils, micturition (the discharge of urine), and sexual arousal. Whereas most of its actions are involuntary, some ANS functions work in tandem with the conscious mind, such as breathing. Its main components are its sensory system, motor system (comprised of the parasympathetic nervous system and sympathetic nervous system), and the enteric nervous system. ' emphasizing 'some ANS functions work in tandem with the conscious mind, such as breathing'... I think we need to see here the conditioning due to volition (sankhara) .. through the slow down of the urge for ( multiple) action the mind can relax and ease.. (slower gear) T: Hmmm .. I am not yet clear about how the brain waves are relevant or relating to "mind speed". But we may want to leave it for another discussion, maybe? D: you may find plenty of explanations in Google links ... I refered to it in order to show the aspect of speed in relation to calm/ to slow down .. for our practise it is possibly only interesting to know.. T: (D: ... comon is to us is the restlessness.. and some have difficulties to realize a break , this stillness of the thought process which has much to do with the second Jhana.) I only know that in the 2nd jhana there are no thoughts(vitakka vicara), even kusala ones. D: the difference is that in the second Jhana the stillness is lasting.. otherwise we need to recall the focus on the breathe once a while to get the mind back on track ( discovering that we again jumped from association to association absent minded, which refers to our usually practise, doesn't it? ) T: Many thanks to you for the interesting discussion subject D: you are very wellcome with Metta Dieter #81695 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 25, 2008 10:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] the present moment nilovg Hi TG, Op 25-jan-2008, om 19:15 heeft TGrand458@... het volgende geschreven: > Contemplation about the nature of things is > just as important as awareness of present experiences IMO. ------ N: Contemplation about is thinking, only thinking, though it may be with kusala citta and beneficial. Is the development of insight not very essential? It leads to nibbaana. That has to be direct understanding, and direct understanding is not of the past or the future, it is of the present moment. Perhaps now you understand why I hammer on the present moment? Nina. #81696 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 25, 2008 10:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Hello im new member here. nilovg Dear Suan, thank you for your post. Op 25-jan-2008, om 16:03 heeft abhidhammika het volgende geschreven: > Mahaasatipa.t.thaana Suttam instructs us NOT ONLY to be in the > present moment, but also to prepare and practice for non-present > moments as well. ------ N: Suan, please, if you have time, would you indicate where this is said? Nina. #81697 From: TGrand458@... Date: Fri Jan 25, 2008 5:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] the present moment TGrand458@... In a message dated 1/25/2008 11:27:04 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: N: Contemplation about is thinking, only thinking, though it may be with kusala citta and beneficial. Is the development of insight not very essential? It leads to nibbaana. That has to be direct understanding, and direct understanding is not of the past or the future, it is of the present moment. Perhaps now you understand why I hammer on the present moment? Nina. ................................................ Hi Nina I "get it" Nina, I just don't agree with such an exclusive presentation of the Buddha's teaching. BTW -- "Direct understanding" alone is not possible. Contemplation MUST be applied to develop understanding so that one can have a chance of knowing what these direct experiences amount to. There's all sorts of conceptual thinking as part of the Satipatthana Sutta. But you folks always ignore those aspect it seems. TG #81698 From: Dieter Möller Date: Fri Jan 25, 2008 10:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Alleged Slowing Down of Mind States .. The Monkey Mind Model.... moellerdieter Hi Howard and all, you wrote: ('D: Howard , you refer to a different state of meditation .. to calm /to slown down (the fabrications/functions of ) body and mind means preparation , the beginning of meditation .. it is related to the 5 hindrances, esp. restlessness, which is so characteristic for our busy daily life. When a certain grade of ease and calmness is reached - 'neighbourhood concentration' - contemplation with clearer focus is possible . Whether we then focus on the 4 foundations of mindfulness respectively observe the rising and ceasing of phenomena or turn to absorbtion (Jhana) is another matter...there was no talk about lulling the mind..I think it is an important issue in particular for our non -meditating friends.. Enough clues to revise your objection ? ;-) ============================ Howard: My "bottom line" on this issue is that one does not under any circumstance cause an object of consciousness to be sustained. Certain mental activities can cause repetitions of given mental content, or, more precisely, can cause the arising of very similar objects of consciousness, and attention can be caused to be selective, but I do not believe in this "hanging onto a branch" business. Certainly, as wholesome factors increase during meditation and hindrances are lessened, there is greater patience with whatever is present and greater clarity of mental vision. Anything else is, I believe, mere appearance and not reality. D: Howard, I do not see the relevance of this bottom line for the issue of the state of preparing meditation .. which was triggered by Robert 's question : 'do you have the reference where it says mind states can be slowed down by doing sitting meditation?' ( yes, as stated in the Canon ''There is the case where a monk -- having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building -- sits down ...He trains himself to breathe in calming bodily fabrication and to breathe out calming bodily fabrication.' / 'He trains himself to breathe in calming mental processes, and to breathe out calming mental processes.)' Nevertheless we may put it into the file of ' HowDie's unsolved matters of discussion' ;-) with Metta Dieter #81699 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 25, 2008 10:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Outline of Purification of View V.6 nilovg Hi Larry, Op 25-jan-2008, om 3:51 heeft LBIDD@... het volgende geschreven: > > 23. Now it is only when he has become quite sure about discerning > materiality in this way that immaterial states become quite evident to > him in the three aspects. Therefore he should only undertake the > task of > discerning the immaterial states after he has completed that, not > otherwise. If he leaves off discerning materiality when, say, one > or two > material states have become evident in order to begin discerning the > immaterial, then he falls from his meditation subject like the > mountain > cow already described under the Development of the Earth Kasina. -------- N: In may of these paras it is said, as I mentioned before: To another... to another. It is not a prescription to be followed by everybody. It seems to me that all these manners of discerning first rupa, then nama etc. depend on someone's inclinations. Not one individual is the same. In 22 he combines it with the meditation on the bodyparts, beginning with the head hair. That is good for someone who is familiar with this meditation. Such a person will be naturally inclined to consider all the different rupas. He may have developed the body parts as a meditation subject of samatha before. This helps him to discern rupas. -------- > L: But if > he undertakes the task of discerning the immaterial after he is > already > quite sure about discerning materiality thus, then his meditation > subject comes to growth, increase and perfection. > > Larry: This method may be too ridged and formalistic for some > sensibilities. If so, take from it what you can. The key point is to > understand deeply, on an experiential level, that all there is is nama > and rupa. -------- N: I agree with your conclusion. The Visuddhimagga describes all the namas and rupas that can be object of insight, but not everyone will be aware of all nama and rupa. We all are different, with different inclinations and abilities. As you said in another post: when there is 'should' there is self. Nina. #81700 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Fri Jan 25, 2008 10:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Preserving the Buddha's Teachings, Ch 4, no 3. dcwijeratna Hell Ken H, Many thanks for ringing up Andrew. I appreciate it very much. Sorry I didn't write to you sooner. With mettaa, D. G. D. C. Wijeratna #81701 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 25, 2008 10:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] the present moment nilovg HI TG, Op 25-jan-2008, om 19:32 heeft TGrand458@... het volgende geschreven: > There's all > sorts of conceptual thinking as part of the Satipatthana Sutta. But > you folks > always ignore those aspect it seems. ------ N: I agree. Take the cemetery contemplations, these help us to be aware of this body now that is like a skeleton. There are many reminders in conventional language about conventional things understandable by all sorts of people, but why? To bring us back to this very moment when nama and rupa appear through one of the six doorways. Six worlds. The Buddha taught us to understand anatta, and not by way of thinking, but by understanding seeing as anatta, thinking as anatta, clinging as anatta. Not seeing, thinking or clinging that has gone, but which arise now. Otherwise his teaching would be useless. Nina. #81702 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jan 25, 2008 6:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Alleged Slowing Down of Mind States .. The Monkey Mind Model.... upasaka_howard Hi, Dieter - In a message dated 1/25/2008 1:44:29 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, moellerdieter@... writes: Howard: My "bottom line" on this issue is that one does not under any circumstance cause an object of consciousness to be sustained. Certain mental activities can cause repetitions of given mental content, or, more precisely, can cause the arising of very similar objects of consciousness, and attention can be caused to be selective, but I do not believe in this "hanging onto a branch" business. Certainly, as wholesome factors increase during meditation and hindrances are lessened, there is greater patience with whatever is present and greater clarity of mental vision. Anything else is, I believe, mere appearance and not reality. D: Howard, I do not see the relevance of this bottom line for the issue of the state of preparing meditation .. which was triggered by Robert 's question : 'do you have the reference where it says mind states can be slowed down by doing sitting meditation?' ( yes, as stated in the Canon ''There is the case where a monk -- having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building -- sits down ...He trains himself to breathe in calming bodily fabrication and to breathe out calming bodily fabrication.' / 'He trains himself to breathe in calming mental processes, and to breathe out calming mental processes.)' ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: What can I tell you, Dieter? I do not see this quoted material as indicating anything to the effect that "mind states can be slowed down by doing sitting meditation" or any sort of meditation. Calm is mental peace, ease, relaxation. It has nothing to do with anything slowing down, and the quoted material says nothing along such lines. -------------------------------------------------------- Nevertheless we may put it into the file of ' HowDie's unsolved matters of discussion' ;-) ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, I'd say "not agreed upon" rather than "unsolved". It's solved and fairly well settled for *me*! ;-) =========================== With metta, Howard #81703 From: "Alex" Date: Fri Jan 25, 2008 11:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Removal of distracting thoughts. truth_aerator Dear Sarah & Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Nina & Alex, > > .... > See: "Vitakka-Santhana Sutta, MN20 (Removal of Distracting Thoughts)" in > U.P. > #20169, 35343, 35375, 35402, 35428, 36242, 36426, 36537, 52260, 52315, > 52394, 52543, 64743, 75593 > > I look forward to your further discussion. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== > Do you or Nina or anyone here practices (meditation subjects) that Nina has well said below? If so, my respect! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > > The Removal of Distracting Thoughts, no 2. > > The Co explains, when unwholesome thinking is accompanied by attachment, the different object (nimitta) he should pay attention to is foulness, asubha. And when there is attachment to things, such as robes, he should reflect on the impermanence of things. When thinking with aversion arises towards living beings he should develop metta, loving kindness. When thinking with aversion arises towards things he should pay attention to elements. When thinking with delusion arises the bhikkhu should depend on five dhammas. >>>> Lots of Metta, Alex #81704 From: "colette" Date: Fri Jan 25, 2008 11:53 am Subject: Re: THE MIND OF NOWNESS ksheri3 Hi Alex, EXACTLY WHAT I WAS GOING TO USE TO CONTEND WITH YOUR CONCEPTUALIZATION OF READING WHAT THE BUDDHA SAID: I WAS WAITING TO FOR YOU TO GET TO THIS POINT SINCE NOW I KNOW EXACTLY WHERE YOU ARE AND WHERE MY "TOYS" ARE LAID IN RELATION TO WHERE YOU ARE SO THAT I CAN BE SURE OF THINGS. <...> THE NIKAYAS are the point. The story telling characteristics of the Nikayas are the mode. You mean to suggest that a Nikaya, any Nikaya, is or are EXACT QUOTES OF/FROM THE BUDDHA? That certainly is a stretch. > > > You say: "Read what the BUDDHA has said rather then the > commentaries" > > where I reply that in a few of the pieces I'm reading now I've begun > > to find the aggitation toward the Theravadan movement and the > > actual "dis-belief" in the Theravadan movement through such things > as > > a comparison of the Lalitavistara and the Sarvastivada, as well as > > the Hinayana and Mahayana conception of the 3 Kayas. > >>> > > Read the most original material (4 Nikayas) and don't read the > sectarian works (AP & VsM). > colette: help me out here: what is AP & VsM? Could it be Associated Press or American Psychiatrist or what? ----------------------------------- > > >>> > > can we really be sure that anything in text or in the canons is or > > are actual quotations? > > > > We can get close to actual quotations but are they really > quotations? > > >>> > > 4 main nikayas are generally considered to be the oldest. Sure they > contain some later addons, but for the most part they are the most > authentic. Another thing is that pay attention to the themes MOST > FREQUENTLY found in the nikayas. For example, Enlightment isn't > about "Insight Knowledges" it is about destructions of the Asavas. colette: obviously you are in my head since you are pulling up some really odd thoughts that I have already had. For instance last night I thought: "Hmmm, gonna have to devote some time to this word Asavas" since I had just begun reading Thanisarro's depiction of Mara and was very impressed by the two pages I had. The oddest thing would be that you finally grasped and brought out that I've been "seeing" that this Buddhism schtick has themes and carries, sometimes, quite long discussions about a single theme and the Rigpa doesn't come right out and shine at the reader. It's almost as if the Rigpa is in the process of uniting with Yin and not until the Great Completion is achieved can the reader actually enjoy the Bliss of reealization of what has been said. ------------------------------------ > Another thing: The mind (Citta) is what is timeless and is in Nibbana > http://www.attan.com/17.html > colette: it'll take some time before I can get to that site you list above but lets examine your words above that. Obviously our distinctions and definitions of Mind and Citta are different BUT that doesn't mean that the differences cannot be overcome. This concept of "Time" as a means of being Timeless will take some doing. But again, we can and we will get to this. --------------------------------------- > The Truth about Anatta > http://www.attan.com/anatta.html > > Atta in Atthakathas that Theravadins don't want you to know. These > commentaries predate Theravada > http://www.attan.com/att.html > > What soul hates don't want you to know: > http://www.attan.com/soul.html > > The mind (citta) in Buddhism: > http://www.attan.com/citta.html > > Just a few things. It really opened my eyes. > > > <....> In Buddhism we can find a recent tirade that I had here > > concerning the monks that were not allowed into the cave during the > > first turning of the wheel to discuss what was going to be placed > > into the canon and what was going to be discarded. > > > > The different Abhidhamma pitaka traditions are acknowledged to be > later parts of the canon which were not in existence at the time of > the first council and they post date the Sutta and Vinaya pitakas. > There are considerable variations between the different philosophical > traditions. The Theravada tradition held that there were only four > realities rupa, citta, cetasaka and Nibbana, whereas the Sarvastiva > da tradition held that there were five realities and included space a > ka sa as a fifth reality. colette: gotcha up to here since this specifically is dealt with in the descriptions of the 3 Kayas since the original thoughts of the Kayas were that there were only 2 Kayas. ---------------------------------- Also whilst the Theravada tradition held > that only the present moment `existed' when things were perceived, > the Sarva stiva da tradition held that things `existed' in the past, > present and future. colette: here is an example of the confusion that is created through the word: TIMELESS. Applying the Sarvastivadan theories on "time" then we can see that the Past, Present, and Future ACTUALITY or ACTUALITIES of Time ARE EXACTLY THE SAME there is no way to differentiate between them. ----------------------------- This last view accounts for the name of the > tradition which means `all exists'. Due to this it is natural that > the philosophical texts vary in their contents. Despite sharing a > common interest in philosophical analysis. Indeed the differences > between the traditions form the basis for a Theravada tradition text, > the Katthavattu or `Points of controversy' which outlines the > differences between the traditions as seen from a Theravada viewpoint. > colette: I tried to google that, Katthavattu, but the people monitoring my computer usage would not allow me to do such a thing BEAUSE I WAS DELIBERATELY AND INTENTIONALLY TRYING TO ACCESS THE CONTROVERSIAL ISSUES. Obviously they don't want me getting side tracked since reading the controversies before completely understanding the theories of Theravadan then I will predjudice and bias my own analysis. -------------------------------------- Sorry, only 1 minute left and I have to go. I am going to get back to this however. toodles, colette > There is a further question which is worth addressing here is. <...> #81705 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Jan 25, 2008 12:09 pm Subject: The Entrance! bhikkhu0 Friends: The Last Relinquishment: When ignorance of the 4 Noble Truths finally fully evaporates he no longer clings to any sense pleasure, he no longer clings to own views, he no longer clings to rules & rituals, he no longer clings to the idea of a same self... When he does not cling, he is not agitated! When he is not agitated, he personally attains Nibbana. He understands: Birth is ended, the Noble life has been lived, what had to be done is done, there is no more relapsing into any state of being... Majjhima Nikaya I 68: The shorter speech on the Lion's Roar. Friendship is the Greatest * Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka :-) ..... #81706 From: "Alex" Date: Fri Jan 25, 2008 4:45 pm Subject: My recent meditation experiences. Thinking regarding slowing down of mind. truth_aerator Hello all, For my formal "meditations" I generally practice Metta. It works well for making me go deep, quick and bliss out almost instanteneously. Almost every if not every day (except when I am badly sick), in about 5 minutes or less I start blissing out. The feeling of bliss & happiness is much more refined than coarse materialistic pleasures. My body feels more like energy than stone, and it has strange wobbling feeling, as if my body was moving front and backs. I used to have feelings which were like me passing out and falling forwards only to a split second later move the spine back (no, I definately was not sleepy. Whenever I feel drowsy and can't get out of it, I quit sitting.) Thoughts start to diminish much more and I percieve emptiness in between them, not to mention black void. The mind calms down. It is more and more empty and slow (in a sense of less things going on). Howard, it does feels like the mind is slowing down. More and more moments of the mind are either empty, blissful or equinimous. No this restless 1000 beats per second sort of inner emergencies going on. It is like a movie tape which is being played at a much SLOWER pace. Lots of Metta, In Dhamma, Alex #81707 From: "colette" Date: Fri Jan 25, 2008 12:52 pm Subject: Re: THE MIND OF NOWNESS ksheri3 Hi Alex, Below is what I just pasted here so that I can completely address the HUGE REPLY YOU GAVE TO ME. > http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebsut059.htm > colette: this is a very lengthy and probably detailed description that I can and will rely upon but time is my enemy at the moment. Since I cannot read nor can I print it now, I'll just have to wait but get to it I will, EVENTUALLY. As a matter of fact you buried me in sites that have valuable information for me that I don't even have to to open at the moment. Lets address you words to me below. > There is a further question which is worth addressing here is. `What > parts of the Nikaya Buddhist canon are also accepted by Mahayana > Buddhist traditions?' Interestingly enough though the question > becomes not really what are accepted texts, so much as what are texts > that interest different traditions. colette: I think this is a very good way of looking at it. Here you get the "whole shabang", like a smorgasborg or a buffete where you pick and chose what suits your tastes. Within that simple statement you made we can actually EXAMINE: <...> So values apply to a groups interests, no? What about "Emotions" in the application of creating a group's interests? Who does the creation? <....>Hark, do I hear Thanissorro screaming "Mara" as I blithely tip toe through the tullips? ---------------------------------------- The Sutta texts for instance are > accepted as genuine by the Mahayana tradition, but they are of little > interest to the Mahayana it seems. colette: THEN aren't you interested in WHY? Why is there a "primacy" for other things while the "primacy" for the Theravadan MUST BE THE EDUCATIONAL PROCESS. for instance in the USA there are a grouping of previously manufactured robots that adhere to the control of the main- frame computer that supplies them with a fixed check to pay the gang that allows them to live in a fixed prison cell called a home, and home ownership, in a Zone Improvement Plan (z.i.p. code) and in return they simply removed their brain in exchange for a LAN/WAN card. ("The silicone chip inside her head gets switched to overload", the song is I Don't Like Mondays and was written to describethe scene at a suburb where the suburban school was placed under attack by a sniper, and I've got plenty of explosive charges just waiting to direct your wander through MY JUNGLE WITHOUT MY PERMISSION, etc, since you will try to have a tantrum that this song I speak of has absolutely nothing to do with the Nikayas but you will not accept that a P.O.V. and an ARTISTIC DEPTICTION are EXACTLY WHAT THE NIKAYAS actually are, and believe me, there is no where to run, just listen to Pink Flody's song "Dogs of War" from the CD "A Momentary Lapse of Reason") ------------------------- However, almost all the traditions > agree on the importance of the Dhammapada as the essence of the > Buddha's teachings. > colette: the same question appears: WHY? Why is it that one part is worth nothing but other parts are worth far more? <...> ------------------------------- > The Vinaya pitaka is also a commonly held part of the early canon. > Although that majority of East Asian and Himalayan traditions follow > the Sarva stiva da Vinaya rather than the Theravada Vinaya, however > there are in theory no major differences. colette: thanx for using my terminology and phraseology: "...in theory..." BECAUSE there ain't a shredd of evidence worthy of placing the blame for the suffering of this life onto a single "creator diety" as the drug dependents commonly refered to as WEstern religious slaves, that christain, muslim, judeaism, schtick. IT IS ONLY THEORY UNTIL EACH PERSON FINALLY GETS SICK OF BEING SPOON FED FATALLY POISONOUS FOOD, because of their laziness (see sloth & topor) AND FINALLY COMES TO THE REALIZATION THAT THERE REALLY IS SOMETHING OTHER THAN DEATH. Death, as a thought of focus or meditational tool, is an absolutely ignorant as hell focus for meditation since, IF YOU AIN'T EXERIENCED IT THEN DON'T CONSIDER IT GET ON WITH LIVING NOT DYING. ------------------------------------------------ This is of course quite > separate from the question of how the Vinaya is interpreted which > evidently varies widely between the Northern and Southern traditions. > <...> > The Abhidhamma contains almost no texts which are common between > Nikaya Buddhists, let alone between the Nikaya Buddhists and the > Mahayana Buddhists. colette: seriously, I think the Abhidharma is a very good users manual for any student of the mysteries. It does not take any sides, does not insight an attitude in it's readers, etc. What is this: Nikaya Buddhists? ARe they really a specific sect? --------------------------- However, there is a similar fascination with > philosophy in all the traditions. > http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebsut059.htm > > Thanx. toodles, colette #81708 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Jan 25, 2008 4:50 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Removal of distracting thoughts. dhammanusara Hi Alex and Nina (and Sarah) :-) , Please allow me to comment on the following dialogue that I extracted from message # 81653 : > >Nina : > >The answer is: listen more, consider more so that there will be more > >understanding of the cittas which are cause (kusala and akusala), > >and the cittas that are vipaakacittas, for example. The unpleasant > >experiences through the senses are vipaaka, but how are our > >reactions to these? Do we blame others, or the situation, or is > there understanding of cause and effect in life?> > >Alex: Dear Nina, the above isn't the entire teaching of the Buddha. It has to be put into practice called Noble 8Fold Path. Knowledge without action is not enough. What does knowing about every little transistor found in a car do to get you from point A to B, if you don't actually drive to the destination? >In many suttas there are strategies to deal with Anger, Greed, or Delusion - and they don't involve knowing all elemental particles, "dhammas". Well, suttas dealing with Jhanas do. But remember knowledge should be obtained First Hand FROM Jhana states (see mn111 for example) rather from pre Jhanic defiled mind full of Hindrances. ........................ T: It is not surprising to me at all that you both have valid points. You both are right in two different domains! Let me explain why I think so. In my humble (and respectful) opinion, Nina is right with regard to citta-visuddhi (purification of consciousness) that is clearly applicable to every-day living conditions. She has demonstrated to me that she is very patient and forgiving; no-one can deny that Nina has successfully applied the Dhamma. I believe that when we remind ourselves often about kusala and akusala, we are developing a right view in accordance with the Arahant Sariputta's teaching in MN 9 (there he also elaborates on the Dependendent Origination that is uniquely coupled with the Four Noble Truths for the various ways to develop right view). "When, friends, a noble disciple understands the unwholesome, the root of the unwholesome, the wholesome, and the root of the wholesome, in that way he is one of right view, whose view is straight, who has perfect confidence in the Dhamma, and has arrived at this true Dhamma". [MN 9] I understand "noble disciple" refers to a virtuous monk (well trained in Patmokkha and Vinaya). But a clear understanding of "the unwholesome, the root of the unwholesome, the wholesome, and the root of the wholesome" in a wise worldling is very beneficial too. Alex, I think you are right in the case of a virtuous person (lay or monk) who is intent on development of the N8P, which leads to culmination of the four frames of reference(satipatthana), as stated by the following sutta quote: "And what is the path of practice to the development of the frames of reference? Just this noble eightfold path: right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. This is called the path of practice to the development of the frames of reference." [Samyutta Nikaya XLVII.40: Satipatthana-vibhanga Sutta] Of course, Nina already knows all of the above, and more. Yours truly, Tep === #81709 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Jan 25, 2008 5:13 pm Subject: Re: Alleged Slowing Down of Mind States .. The Monkey Mind Model.... dhammanusara Hi Dieter, - Let's continue. > > 'T: Can the slowing down of the breathing be due to calmer consciousness? You know, 'nama paccaya rupam'. > > D: you mean ' vinnaya paccaya nama /rupa' ? > .............. Tep: I meant something else that is slightly different. "It is as if two sheaves of reeds were to stand leaning against one another. In the same way, from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness, from consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. [SN 12.67 Nalakalapiyo; Sutta Sheaves of Reeds] So the consciousness which is a 'nama' supports 'form' in the 'name-&- form', and vice versa. Mind controls body; yet body affects mind too (psychosomatic). .............. > > D: you may find plenty of explanations in Google links ... > I refered to it in order to show the aspect of speed in relation to calm/ to slow down .. > for our practise it is possibly only interesting to know.. > Tep: Okay, thanks. .............. > T: (D: ... comon is to us is the restlessness.. and some have difficulties to realize a break , this stillness of the thought process which has much to do with the second Jhana.) > I only know that in the 2nd jhana there are no thoughts(vitakka vicara), even kusala ones. > > D: the difference is that in the second Jhana the stillness is lasting.. > otherwise we need to recall the focus on the breathe once a while to get the mind back on track ( discovering that we again jumped from association to association absent minded, which refers to our usually practise, doesn't it? ) > Tep: About this lasting stillness characteristic -- you don't mean mind (citta) in the 2nd jhana does not conform to the Abhidhamma principle of conditioned dhammas (that has been the main theme of DSG) ? Tep === #81710 From: han tun Date: Fri Jan 25, 2008 5:54 pm Subject: Perfections Corner (79) hantun1 Dear All, This is the presentation in installment of The Perfections Leading to Enlightenment by Ajahn Sujin Boriharnwanaket; and translated by Nina van Gorkom. http://www.zolag.co.uk/ - Chapter 6: The Perfection of Patience (continuation) As we read: “Patience is an ocean on account of its depth.” Patience is profound. Akusala arises more often than kusala. When sati-sampaja~n~na arises, someone realizes the disadvantage of akusala citta, and he has patience to refrain from it, be it lobha, dosa, jealousy, avarice or conceit. This shows that patience is profound. If someone has no understanding, he cannot develop the perfection of patience. The perfection of patience and sati-sampaja~n~na are very subtle and refined, they are conditions for refraining from akusala. Patience is “a shore bounding the great ocean of hatred; a panel closing off the door to the plane of misery.” Many people are afraid of unhappy planes and they perform kusala so that they will not be born there. However, if someone does not want to be reborn in an unhappy plane, he should be patient and refrain from akusala, because patience is “a panel closing off the door to the plane of misery.” Patience is “a staircase ascending to the worlds of the gods and Brahmas; the ground for the habitation of all noble qualities; the supreme purification of body, speech and mind.” We should consider again and again whether we have further developed patience in each situation of our life. When we train ourselves often in good qualities, sobhana cetasikas, when we develop them, they can become our nature. Some people are by nature more patient than others, and this shows that they have developed all kinds of wholesome qualities. We read further on in the Commentary: “Patience should be further fortified by reflection: ‘Those who lack patience are afflicted in this world and apply themselves to actions which will lead to their affliction in the life to come.’ And: ‘Although this suffering arises through the wrong deeds of others, this body of mine is the field for that suffering, and the action which is its seed was sown by me alone.’ And: ‘This suffering will release me from the debt of that kamma.’ And: ‘If there were no wrong-doers, how could I accomplish the perfection of patience?’ " If someone else afflicts or harms us, we should not be angry, but we should realize that this is an opportunity further to develop the perfection of patience so that it becomes accomplished. To be continued. Han #81711 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Jan 25, 2008 5:56 pm Subject: Re: My recent meditation experiences. Thinking regarding slowing down of mind. scottduncan2 Dear Alex, Regarding: A: "For my formal "meditations" I generally practice Metta. It works well for making me go deep, quick and bliss out almost instanteneously..." Scott: Why do you think that this is important for me to know about? Sincerely, Scott. #81712 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Jan 25, 2008 6:12 pm Subject: Re: Alleged Slowing Down of Mind States .. The Monkey Mind Model.... dhammanusara Hi Dieter (and Howard), - Howard was often very clear in his writings, and I appreciated this unique quality very much. But in this concentration/meditation discussion about mind speed, Howard's adherence to the DSG-styled abhidhamma might have caused our confusion and disagreement (with him). On the other hand, our habitual use of the conventional language might have confused his sophisticated abhidhamma-mind. ;-)) For examples, let's look at the following words/clauses extracted from his reply: -- "one does not under any circumstance cause an object of consciousness to be sustained". T: That is the principle of 'no controller' of conditioned dhammas. .......... -- "certain mental activities can cause the arising of very similar objects of consciousness". T: This is the concept of arising-and-passing-away of different conditioned cittas that are empty of self. .......... -- "there is greater patience with whatever is present and greater clarity of mental vision. Anything else is, I believe, mere appearance and not reality". T: There I see 'khanti parami' and a 'sankhara nimitta' (concept) that is not an ultimate reality. No doubt the discussion has not reached an agreement. Best wishes, Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Dieter M�ller wrote: > > Hi Howard and all, > ... > ============================ > Howard: My "bottom line" on this issue is that one does not under any circumstance cause an object of consciousness to be sustained. Certain mental activities can cause repetitions of given mental content, or, more precisely, can cause the arising of very similar objects of consciousness, and attention can be caused to be selective, but I do not believe in this "hanging onto a branch" business. Certainly, as wholesome factors increase during meditation and hindrances are lessened, there is greater patience with whatever is present and greater clarity of mental vision. Anything else is, I believe, mere appearance and not reality. > #81713 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Jan 25, 2008 7:00 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Outline of Purification of View V.5 lbidd2 Hi Nina, Every mundane consciousness except the jhana cittas can be prompted, and there is a procedure for entering jhana and advancing from stage to stage. With great skill one can sit down and prompt the arising of consciousness of every aspect of the body and discern it in terms of the 18 rupas and then prompt the arising of consciousness of every aspect of the mind and discern that in terms of the 81 consciousnesses and 7 universal cetasikas. We might even say that prompting the arising of a prompted consciousness is the definition of skill, whether we are talking about insight meditation or playing the piano. The purpose of practice of all kinds is to develop skill in prompting the arising of prompted consciousness. How else could the purification of view come about? Larry #81714 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Jan 25, 2008 7:38 pm Subject: Re: Full bodied determinism? .. baalo or pandita? .. dhammanusara Hi KenH, - I truly appreciate this kind and gentle reply from you and the oppotunity to reflect on your dhamma thinking. >KenH: Firstly, I disagree when you say 'not every activity <. . .> is explainable by "trillions of cittas."' Isn't that what the Dhamma is all about? "When we are walking, we are to know there are really only namas and rupas. When we are getting dressed in the morning, we are to know there are namas and rupas . . . etc., etc." Everything - including every activity - is to be known as it ultimately is. T: It is understandable why you prefer the "cittas" perspective as the only meaningful way to describe and analyze everything in the world. Me too, I have no objection of the ultimate-reality view of the dhammas; the only trouble I have however is when that ultimate view is expressed all the time to all situations and to all people with the air of superiority. Numerous DSG posts demonstrate that there are conventional activities and stories in the worlds that are better explained by the conventional language. >KenH: Secondly, there is nothing wrong with conventional discussions about wholesome and unwholesome activities *so long as we do not claim they are what the Buddha taught!* There is nothing wrong with discussing (for example) the rightness or wrongness of Japanese whaling in the Pacific - provided we don't pretend it is inherently (i.e., in the absolute sense) right or wrong. Only dhammas can be inherently right or wrong. That was the big, cosmos-shaking revelation that the Buddha pronounced to the world: ultimately there are no people, no places, no conventional courses of action - there are only namas and rupas. T: I don't know if you meant I wrongly made such a claim? ;-) In the Japanese whale-killing case or not, killing is clearly wrong. Period. On the other hand, by adhering strictly without matured wisdom (of the ariyans) that there are no persons, no animals, no killing & no killers in the real world -- that can be dangerous. Try walking alone in the Central Park in Manhattan, USA, at night and you'll find out if there are no thieves, no robbers, no killers but only namas and rupas are present. ......................... > >T: Since you do not explain lust, hatred and ignorance by means of "trillions of cittas", isn't the above remark of yours a "gross generalisation"? >KH: With respect, Tep, you seem to have misunderstood what I wrote. Maybe that's because I was butting in on your conversation without really knowing what you were talking about. :-) My point was that the nature of unwholesomeness in the ultimate sense (citta with lobha, for example) was the same as the nature of unwholesomeness in the conventional sense (sex, drugs and rock 'n roll, for example). That's why the Buddha was able to use conventional language so often in his teaching. To a certain extent, namas and rupas can be described in the same language that is used to describe conventional things. T: Oh, you can, and please do, join me in any discussion anytime. I never assume that the DSG message board is my personal thing. I agree with you that any wholesome/unwholesome dhamma has the same nature either in the conventional or ultimate sense, because how can the view used to express it ever affect the intrinsic truth? And you are right that "To a certain extent, namas and rupas can be described in the same language that is used to describe conventional things". ........................ >KH: As I said, you have misunderstood what I was saying. Now it's my turn to not understand. In what way as my comment a gross generalisation? T: It is fine with me to be questioned, but remember that you invented the term "gross generalisation" yourself in the beginning. You wrote : "Some of those cittas will be wholesome, some unwholesome, some vipaka and some purely functional. To say that any conventional activity was wholesome or unwholesome would be a gross generalisation". If my understanding of your writing above is correct, a gross generalization is to describe anything that is not a citta as wholesome or unwholesome (because kusala/akusala are strictly pertaining to cittas). ....................... >KH: Yes, the suttas talk about wise "men" and their "activities" in daily life, but they must be understood in a very special way. Every word of every sutta points in some way to the nature of conditioned dhammas. To see those words in any other way would be a terrible waste of the unique, incomparable Dhamma. >We can hear conventional stories about good and evil anywhere, any time. T: I do agree with you that "Every word of every sutta points in some way to the nature of conditioned dhammas", since for instance all sankharas are sankhata dhamma. Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > As you say, Phil's reply was friendly and non-argumentative. I had > left some loose ends that he could have caught me out on, but he > chose not to. :-) > > ---------------- #81715 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jan 25, 2008 3:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Alleged Slowing Down of Mind States .. The Monkey Mind Model.... upasaka_howard Hi, Tep (and Dieter) - In a message dated 1/25/2008 9:13:14 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, tepsastri@g mail.com writes: Hi Dieter (and Howard), - Howard was often very clear in his writings, and I appreciated this unique quality very much. But in this concentration/meditation discussion about mind speed, Howard's adherence to the DSG-styled abhidhamma might have caused our confusion and disagreement (with him). On the other hand, our habitual use of the conventional language might have confused his sophisticated abhidhamma-mind. ;-)) For examples, let's look at the following words/clauses extracted from his reply: -- "one does not under any circumstance cause an object of consciousness to be sustained". T: That is the principle of 'no controller' of conditioned dhammas. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Howard: No, it is not. It is a very specific statement that says no more than it says. You will note (I hope) that the very next thing I wrote was "Certain mental activities can cause repetitions of given mental content, or, more precisely, can cause the arising of very similar objects of consciousness, and attention can be caused to be selective ...," which indicates our HAVING influence. If I believed there could be no influence, then I would believe that progress is impossible, and that Buddhism and its goal are sad jokes. In fact, you may recall how much I talk about right effort/guarding the senses, and that includes generating desire, endeavoring, activating persistence, upholding & exerting one's intent for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen, and also generating desire, endeavoring, activating persistence, upholding & exerting one's intent for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen. It is that last, in particular, that I had in mind when saying that certain "mental activities can cause repetitions of given mental content, or, more precisely, can cause the arising of very similar objects of consciousness." In fact, recognizing, highlighting and, especially, appreciating wholesome qualities of mind states serves to condition the arising of more such states with even strengthened wholesome aspect. BTW, I would prefer that what I write be discussed on its own merits and demerits without attempting to categorize me in some fashion. To you it seems I'm an adherent "to DSG-styled abhidhamma" and one dedicated to "the principle of 'no controller' of conditioned dhammas." To others here I'm "a meditator attached to rite & ritual," and someone who can't distinguish "realities" from conventional objects that are alleged to be utterly nothing. Frankly, being hit on both sides makes me more confident of my being damn right, and possibly right in the middle of the middle way! I must be doing something right to upset [I was gonna say "piss off", but I thought better of it!] so many different sorts of people. In any case, I'd sure like the dropping of such useless and foolish characterizing. I don't like it one bit. Sorry, if that's a bit strong, but I didn't want you or anyone to be unsure of my stand on this. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ .......... -- "certain mental activities can cause the arising of very similar objects of consciousness". T: This is the concept of arising-and-passing-away of different conditioned cittas that are empty of self. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: If you read what I wrote two paragraphs back, you will see what my point was. It was not what you just wrote. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ .......... -- "there is greater patience with whatever is present and greater clarity of mental vision. Anything else is, I believe, mere appearance and not reality". T: There I see 'khanti parami' and a 'sankhara nimitta' (concept) that is not an ultimate reality. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't know what you are talking about. Patience and clarity of mind are quite real to me, and as for whether they qualify as paramattha dhammas or aggregations according to anyone else, I couldn't care less. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- No doubt the discussion has not reached an agreement. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, you've got that right! ;-) I'm also basically through with this discussion. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Best wishes, Tep ================================== With metta, Howard #81716 From: "shennieca" Date: Fri Jan 25, 2008 9:48 pm Subject: Re: Hello im new member here. shennieca Hi Steven, Phil, (all), Steven: i was starting to spiral out of control with drinking alcohol and smoking cigarettes but i am trying very hard to stop these things with the help of the Dhammapada. Phil: You forgot porn. haha just joking. that's me Elaine: Attachment to Desires is the Cause of Sufferings. There are 3 types of Desires: Desire for sensual pleasure (kama tanha), Desire for existence/birth (bhava tanha) and Desire to get rid of existence (vibhava tanha). Drinking, smoking, porn are sensual desires. Imo, it is very difficult to get rid of sensual desires. Sotapannas and Sakadagamis also have desires, eventhough the sensual desires are lessened. Run-of-the-mill people obviously have all types of desires. But we have to know that desires are harmful, they are obstacles, they do not bring happiness. Maybe they bring 'illusions' of happiness, very, very short-lived happiness. Sensual pleasures make my head feels like its on fire. When I see the sufferings that human beings experience everyday, I think the price we pay for enjoying sensual pleasure is too high, it is Not worth it... :-(( This is a quote from Majjhima Nikaya MN 22, The Water-Snake Simile /quote "It's good, monks, that you understand the Dhamma taught by me in this way, for in many ways I have described obstructive acts to you, and when indulged in they are genuine obstructions. I have said that sensual pleasures are of little satisfaction, much stress, much despair, & greater drawbacks. I have compared sensual pleasures to a chain of bones: of much stress, much despair, & greater drawbacks. I have compared sensual pleasures to a lump of flesh... a grass torch... a pit of glowing embers... a dream... borrowed goods... the fruits of a tree... a butcher's ax and chopping block... swords and spears... a snake' head: of much stress, much despair, & greater drawbacks. /endquote The quote above is meant for monks. As lay-people, I think, we can enjoy some sense pleasure, e.g. listening to music, watching TV, eating good food, etc. but I think we should not watch porn or read adultfiction stuffs (just my opinion). Smoking and drinking is breaking the 5 th precept. Sometimes during dinner parties, I drink a small quantity of alcohol to be polite to the host but of course I can always say, 'I'm sorry, I don't drink because it is against my religion' but then the conversation will shift to religion. (rolleyes). I'd rather drink a bit and avoid lengthy discussions on religions. ;-)) I hope someday, we can all achieve real happiness by abandoning unwholesome desires. Warm regards, Elaine #81717 From: "crosby_s" Date: Fri Jan 25, 2008 10:45 pm Subject: Re: Hello im new member here. crosby_s --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "shennieca" wrote: > > Hi Steven, Phil, (all), > > Steven: i was starting to spiral out of control with drinking alcohol > and smoking cigarettes but i am trying very hard to stop these things > with the help of the Dhammapada. > > Phil: You forgot porn. haha just joking. that's me > > > Elaine: Attachment to Desires is the Cause of Sufferings. There are 3 > types of Desires: Desire for sensual pleasure (kama tanha), Desire > for existence/birth (bhava tanha) and Desire to get rid of existence > (vibhava tanha). Drinking, smoking, porn are sensual desires. > > Imo, it is very difficult to get rid of sensual desires. Sotapannas > and Sakadagamis also have desires, eventhough the sensual desires are > lessened. Run-of-the-mill people obviously have all types of desires. > But we have to know that desires are harmful, they are obstacles, > they do not bring happiness. Maybe they bring 'illusions' of > happiness, very, very short-lived happiness. > > Sensual pleasures make my head feels like its on fire. When I see the > sufferings that human beings experience everyday, I think the price > we pay for enjoying sensual pleasure is too high, it is Not worth > it... :-(( > > > This is a quote from Majjhima Nikaya MN 22, The Water-Snake Simile > > /quote > "It's good, monks, that you understand the Dhamma taught by me in > this way, for in many ways I have described obstructive acts to you, > and when indulged in they are genuine obstructions. I have said that > sensual pleasures are of little satisfaction, much stress, much > despair, & greater drawbacks. I have compared sensual pleasures to a > chain of bones: of much stress, much despair, & greater drawbacks. I > have compared sensual pleasures to a lump of flesh... a grass > torch... a pit of glowing embers... a dream... borrowed goods... the > fruits of a tree... a butcher's ax and chopping block... swords and > spears... a snake' head: of much stress, much despair, & greater > drawbacks. /endquote > > > The quote above is meant for monks. As lay-people, I think, we can > enjoy some sense pleasure, e.g. listening to music, watching TV, > eating good food, etc. but I think we should not watch porn or read > adultfiction stuffs (just my opinion). > > > Smoking and drinking is breaking the 5 th precept. Sometimes during > dinner parties, I drink a small quantity of alcohol to be polite to > the host but of course I can always say, 'I'm sorry, I don't drink > because it is against my religion' but then the conversation will > shift to religion. (rolleyes). I'd rather drink a bit and avoid > lengthy discussions on religions. ;-)) > > I hope someday, we can all achieve real happiness by abandoning > unwholesome desires. > > > Warm regards, > Elaine >Steven:Thankyou for your wise words Elaine i needed them. The Buddha had a big vocabulary when it came to sensual desires that are of an unwholesome kind.Its true what you say, these days its not enough to just live a normal life we have to dress it up make it what it is not through alcohol and and other mind wrecking drugs.You make a good point when you said; >"Sensual pleasures make my head feels like its on fire. When I see the > sufferings that human beings experience everyday, I think the price > we pay for enjoying sensual pleasure is too high, it is Not worth > it... :-(( Im feeling the same way and have done so in the past. With metta Steven. #81718 From: "shennieca" Date: Fri Jan 25, 2008 11:00 pm Subject: Alleged Slowing Down of Mind States (Re: [dsg] Respnse to Re: my parody .... shennieca Hi James, Dieter, all, James: I don't know what to think of that...it would take an Einstein to figure that one out! ;-)) Dieter: good point ..time is relative ... speed a point ... ;-) Elaine: I'd like to throw in my 1-cent opinion. I think, when we are very mindful, i.e. mindfulness arises in succession one-after-another without any gap, it can observe the object of consciousness that arises in the mind. That's why, it seems like the mind slows down because everything can be seen clearly. Maybe it is something like Einstein's Theory of Relatively, when sati is operating continuously (at a fast speed), the rest of the 'stuffs' around it will seem like it is slowing down. I think, if our mindfulness can arise faster than seeing- consciousness, hearing-consciousness, etc., it is able to 'catch' the consciousness in time. Therefore, we can 'see' the arising and passing away of consciousness, as if it's in slow-motion. I know, I know, these speculations are not useful. Impermanence can only be experienced with direct-knowledge. Mindfulness has to be trained, with diligence and with regular practice (this is advice to myself) (sigh). Warmest regards, Elaine #81719 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Sat Jan 26, 2008 12:30 am Subject: Buddha's Instructions For A Long-term Formal Develoment In Satipatthaana Suttam abhidhammika Dear Nina (Sarah, Jon, Phil, Alex, Scott D, Mike N, Bob K) How are you? You asked: " Suan, please, if you have time, would you indicate where this is said?" The following Pali lines are from Section 374, Kaayanupassanaa, Aanaapaana Pabbam, Mahaasatipa.t.thaana Suttam, Mahaavaggo, Diighanikaayo. These two statements are instructions for engaging in the present moment. Please check the verb forms `assasaami' and `passasaami' which are in the present tense. "rassam vaa assasanto `rassam assasaamii'ti pajaanaati, rassam vaa passasanto `rassam passasaamii'ti pajaanaati." But, the following four statements instruct us to prepare and practice for future stages. `Sabbakaayapa.tisamvedii assasissaamii'ti sikkhati, `sabbakaayapa.tisamvedii passasissaamii'ti sikkhati, `Passambhayam kaayasankhaaram assasissaamii'ti sikkhati, `passambhayam kaayasankhaaram passasissaamii'ti sikkhati. Please check the verb forms `assasissaami' and passasissaami', which are in the future tense. And, please also note the verb `sikkhati', to practice. Whenever we see the Pali verb `sikkhati' in such situations, the Buddha was instructing us to undertake a long-term formal development in order to achieve in future something we are unable to do now. With regards, Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org PS: Nina, I do not forget to answer your earlier questions. I will answer them later as soon as possible. Suan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: Dear Suan, thank you for your post. Op 25-jan-2008, om 16:03 heeft abhidhammika het volgende geschreven: > Mahaasatipa.t.thaana Suttam instructs us NOT ONLY to be in the > present moment, but also to prepare and practice for non-present > moments as well. ------ N: Suan, please, if you have time, would you indicate where this is said? Nina. #81720 From: "Phil" Date: Sat Jan 26, 2008 4:15 am Subject: Re: Hello im new member here. philofillet Hi Stephen > >You might find that some folks here will tell > > you that if there is too much clinging to self involved in your > > efforts, it will all be for naught. They have an interesting point > that > > should be considered...but not when Mara is right in our face! > > Im not sure what you mean by this sentence can u give me more > meaning. Sorry, it was quite cryptic, wasn't it. DSG's long time members, who founded it many years ago, decades ago, when Dhamma discussion was still conducted on papyrus leaves, study under/along with a teacher/Dhamma friend who places a lot of emphasis on "detachment from the beginning" and they will often remind us/each other that if there is sakkaya ditthi (wrong view that there is a lasting, permanent self) lurking behind our desires to avoid doing wrong deeds, it will not help us in the long run, because it is only eradication of this wrong view that is really liberating. If we avoid wrong deeds by hiding from them or suppressing them in the name of being a better, more wholesome person, or out of fear, or so on, we will just be setting ourselves up for a rude shock when the lurking tendencies rise up and have their day. So they emphasize understanding the present moment above all, even if it is akusala (unwholesome, evil etc) it is better to understand it than it is to avoid it without any understanding. The moment that conditioned the evil deed has fallen away, we should not be so concerned, something like that. (Please forgive the oversimplification or misinterpretation, students of Acharn Sujin.) You will find that your assumption that all Buddhists should meditate will also be questioned for the above sort of reasons. So these friends here will really come at the Dhamma from a much different angle from where you will find anywhere else on the internet or in the Buddhist section f the bookstore. I was strongly influenced by this approach for a couple of years, and still see value in it - I think it might possibly represent a very deep understanding of what Dhamma is really about (emphasis on might possibly) - but when it comes to this sort of issue, when there is dangerous temptation right at hand, there is not time for this sort of subtle understanding. Just say no, just stop, don't do it - and then afterwards there will be opportunity to reflect on the forces that compel one to do it. For a couple of years I got too relaxed about following the precepts. I would say things like "the precepts are a description of the behaviour of a wise person of understanding rather than a prescription of rules to follow." I think a lot of us come to Dhamma with a background/environment in the Judeo-Christian mold so we resent having commandments to follow. It doesn't seem wise or deep just to make vows not to do certain things. But that's what we have to do. I learned the hard way when I was wishy-washying around this way with the precepts. Now I vow to follow them, and when I fail I fail in that moment to follow the Buddha's teaching, plain and simple. There is no need to feel remorse about this because the accumulated tendency to certain kinds of behaviour is so very strong. We will break the precepts again and again and again. But for me, no more talk of "breaking the precepts with understanding is more important than following them with understanding"or anything like that. (nobody said that, I was just imagining what I might have said a couple of years ago) Don't get me wrong - the folks I'm referring to are no‚" immoral and don't say go ahead and break the precepts. Re alcohol - my drinking has dried right up. For about the last year, it was very occasional, and I would say "never more than one drink" and I knew that if I followed that rule, I would be fine. Nothing bad ever happens from one drink, we can control this, we can participate better at social events, don't make our hosts uncomfortable etc. But then I found a very cool sutta. It is Anguttara Nikaya VIII,39. "Further, monks, a noble disciple gives up wines, liquors and intoxicatants which are the basis for negligence, and abstains from them. By abstaining from wines etc. he give to immeasurable beings freedom from fear, freedom from hostility and freedom from oppresion. By giving to immeasureable beings freedom from fear, hostility and oppression, he himself will enjoy immeasureable freedom from fear, hostility and opporession." When we have a drink, and we seemingly do no harm to ourselves or others, who knows how the effect ripples in a more subtle way. A person we are with is encouraged to have another drink because we have a drink, or is not enouraged to abstain because we do not abstain. And the next day, that person has a drink because of the drink he had because we didn't abstain. Who knows how every one of our actions ripples out and effects others? And this is only one of many lifetimes. So in this lifetime we have a drink and can control it, but who knows in the next lifetime, the accumulate‚„ tendency to seek pleasure in this way may play out in a way where there is not control. The drink we have may ripple in future lives in ways we can't predict. So thinking in this way has me really, really dry these days! (By the way, the "noble disciple" above is an ariyan, a person of advanced attainment, so we shouldn't take the sutta too literally, but I believe the basic principle still applies.) Sorry for the long post Stephen. The first part is probably not of much interest. It refers more to ongoing debates/discussions here. But I hope the sutta passage inspires you to continue on your path to wise abstinence! Good luck to you and to us all! :) Metta, Phil p.s "Mara right in your face" means that temptation is right at hand. When temptation is right at hand there is no time to fuss around about understanding the present moment. Just say no, sort of thing. Mara is the Buddhist tempter who is always encouraging Buddha and his disciples to fall off the path. I guess you've already come across him in Dhammapada. #81721 From: "Phil" Date: Sat Jan 26, 2008 4:17 am Subject: Are thoughts vipaka? philofillet Hi all Are thoughts vipaka? I find it easy to accept that seeing, hearing etc are vipaka, but mental objects feel more like something the mind produces as a result of responding to vipaka rather than vipaka itself. I heard Jon say something along this line in a talk once. Metta, Phil #81722 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Jan 26, 2008 4:23 am Subject: Re: Hello im new member here. buddhatrue Hi Steven, Welcome to DSG! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "crosby_s" wrote: > > Hi my name is Steven and i live in Sydney Australia, i am 27 years old > and i am very interested in Buddhism and the Dhammapada and its > teachings from Buddha.I am new to Buddhism, i have tried to learn or > make Buddhism a part of my life in the past but failed.I would like to > make Buddhism especially Theravada tradition a part of my life now as > i was starting to spiral out of control with drinking alcohol and > smoking cigarettes but i am trying very hard to stop these things with > the help of the Dhammapada. James: Alcohol abuse and smoking are physical addictions as well as mental addictions. Study and reflection on the Dhammapada will help with the mental addictions, but not the physical. For the alcohol addiction, I would suggest a nutritional therapy to help your body stop craving alcohol. You can find information here: http://www.doctoryourself.com/alcohol_protocol.html This therapy 100% worked for me. As far as a nicotine addiction, I don't know much about that. But, I believe that there are nicotine patches which are pretty effective. I would be very appreciative for any help in > learning from the Buddhas Teachings from (DSG) and how to cope with > people in everyday life and the situations i may face from following a > path like this. > Also i am reading the Dhammapada from Buddhanet.com titled Treasury of > Truth by Ven. W. Sarada Maha Thero and Practical Vipassana by Ven. > Mahasi Sayadaw, any other books or litrature that you find may help me > please let me know. I am starting off with the Dhammapada first as i > think i should know what the Buddha taught, i have explanations for > all the verses and if i am troubled by any verses James: I truly love the Dhammapada also. It is the only source you need to study to learn everything the Buddha taught. You might want to begin each morning by reading a Dhammapada verse, sitting erect in a quiet place, and focus on the meaning of the verse. Focus on the verse until you can almost feel the meaning of the verse permeate your entire body. The Buddha taught this type of meditation as Recollection of the Dhamma. You could pick a new verse each morning. Just a suggestion. i shall ask > questions.As for the Practical Vipassana book, i am very much wanting > to meditate and join a retreat someday and this book, and maybe some > others are a good starting point i think. James: You have started on the only good and worthwhile path in this world! You should consider yourself very lucky and never forget your gratitude to the Triple Gem (The Buddha, the Dhamma, and the Sangha). Sorry for this post being so > long and involved and thank you if you have read this and reply to me. > > With Metta > > Steven. > Metta, James #81723 From: "Phil" Date: Sat Jan 26, 2008 4:24 am Subject: Re: Hello im new member here. philofillet Hi again Stephen and all >but when it comes to > this sort of issue, when there is dangerous temptation right at > hand, This reminds me that one thing that complicates the alcohol issue is that while drinking breaks the precepts it is not classified as one of the ten akusala kamma patha, the ten kinds of unwholesome action. If drinking were akusala kamma patha I think there would be much stronger impetus for abstaining. In my case, I would have gone dry much earlier. Metta, Phil #81724 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Sat Jan 26, 2008 5:01 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (73) nichiconn Dear Friends, Part 24 16. Mahaanipaato 1. Sumedhaatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa 468. "Kimiva puutikaayamasuci.m, savanagandha.m bhayaanaka.m ku.napa.m; abhisa.mviseyya.m bhasta.m, asaki.m paggharita.m asucipu.n.na.m. 466. "Like a worm, I would be associated with this foul body, impure, smelling of sweat, a frightful water bag of corpses, always flowing, full of impurities. Kimivaati kimi viya. Puutikaayanti ima.m puutika.levara.m. Savanagandhanti vissa.t.thavissagandha.m. Bhayaanakanti aviitaraagaana.m bhayaavaha.m. Ku.napa.m abhisa.mviseyya.m bhastanti ku.napabharita.m cammapasibbaka.m, asaki.m paggharita.m asucipu.n.na.m naanappakaarassa asucino pu.n.na.m hutvaa asaki.m sabbakaala.m adhipaggharanta.m "mama idan"ti abhiniveseyya.m. 466. Like a worm (kimi va)* means: like (viya) a worm. This foul body (puuti-kaaya.m) means: this foul body (puuti-ka.levara.m). Smelling of sweat (savana-gandha.m)* means: giving out a smell like raw meat (vissa.t.tha-vissa-gandha.m). Frightful (bhayaanaka.m) means: causing fear (bhayaavaha.m) in those not free of passion. I would be associated with (abhisa.mviseyya.m) this foul body means: this leather bag filled with corpses (ku.napa-bharita.m). Always (asakai.m) flowing (paggha-rita.m), full of impurities (asuci-pu.n.na.m) means: being full of various sorts of impurity (asucino pu.n.na.m), flowing over (abhipagggharanta.m), not once (asaki.m), but all the time (sabba-kaala.m); I would fix [on it] (abhinivesayya.m), thinking, "It is mine." *The reading here in ThiiEe, p.245, is kim (kim iva in the fn.), translated as questions in EV II. Maggot seems appropriate here (cf PED sv kimi, "as animal of death and putrefication"), and the general idea of the verse is, "If I marry, I would continue to be associated with these disgusting things." **KRN takes savana as coming from Skt srava.na ("sweat, urine") (EV II, pp165f). 469. "Kimiva taha.m jaanantii, vikuulaka.m ma.msaso.nitupalitta.m; kimikulalaya.m saku.nabhatta.m, ka.levara.m kissa diyatiiti. 467. "What [do] I know it to be like? A body is repulsive, smeared with flesh and blood, food for worms, vultures, and other birds. Why is it given [to us]? Kimiva taha.m jaanantii, vikuulakanti ativiya pa.tikkuula.m asuciihi ma.msapesiihi so.nitehi ca upalitta.m anekesa.m kimikulaana.m aalaya.m saku.naana.m bhattabhuuta.m. "Kimikulaalasaku.nabhattan"tipi paa.tho, kimiina.m avasi.t.thasaku.naana~nca bhattabhuutanti attho. Ta.m aha.m ka.levara.m jaanantii .thitaa. Ta.m ma.m idaani vaareyyavasena kissa kena naama kaara.nena diyyatiiti dasseti. Tassa ta~nca daana.m kimiva ki.m viya hotiiti yojanaa. 467. What do I know to be like this? [It is] repulsive (vikuulaka.m) means: it is very repulsive (pa.tikkuula.m), an impure lump of flesh, and smeared with blood, the abode of many species of worms (kimi-kulaana.m); it has become the food of birds. Thre is also the reading: "food for birds, worms and vultures" (kimi-kulaala saku.na-bhatta.m [for: kimi-kulalaya.m saku.na-bhatta.m]). Becoming food for worms (kimiina.m) and other virds (avasi.t.tha-saku.naana.m). That is the meaning. Standing ther, I know it, the body. Then she indicates herself with the words, "Why is it [tho body] given in marriage?" And what (k.m) is this gift of hers like (iva), what is [it] like (ki.m viya)? That is the implication. ..to be continued, connie #81725 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jan 26, 2008 12:17 am Subject: Re: Alleged Slowing Down of Mind States (Re: [dsg] Respnse to Re: my parody .... upasaka_howard Hi, Elaine (and James, Dieter, Tep, and all) - In a message dated 1/26/2008 2:00:10 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, shennieca@... writes: Elaine: I'd like to throw in my 1-cent opinion. I think, when we are very mindful, i.e. mindfulness arises in succession one-after-another without any gap, it can observe the object of consciousness that arises in the mind. That's why, it seems like the mind slows down because everything can be seen clearly. Maybe it is something like Einstein's Theory of Relatively, when sati is operating continuously (at a fast speed), the rest of the 'stuffs' around it will seem like it is slowing down. I think, if our mindfulness can arise faster than seeing- consciousness, hearing-consciousness, etc., it is able to 'catch' the consciousness in time. Therefore, we can 'see' the arising and passing away of consciousness, as if it's in slow-motion. ============================== Excellent, Elaine. This is as I see it also. The "staying present" quality of continuous or near-continuous mindfulness creates a clarity of attention that has the effect of making the mind seem to slow down, because detail that is typically missed (often by a mile) is now seen. With metta, Howard #81726 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jan 26, 2008 1:19 am Subject: Apology/Tep (Re: [dsg] Re: Alleged Slowing Down of Mind States .. The Monkey...) upasaka_howard Dear Tep - I apologize for coming on so strong in my last post to you. There are some "concerns" in our life at the moment that, among other things, lead me to making less measured responses than are appropriate or nice. I'm very sorry. I hope you will forgive me. With metta, Howard #81727 From: "Larry" Date: Sat Jan 26, 2008 7:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Outline of Purification of View V.5 lbidd2 Hi Nina, I made a major mistake: Larry: "Every mundane consciousness except the jhana cittas can be prompted" Larry: Obviously an unprompted consciousness can't be prompted. I believe there are 27 prompted and 27 unprompted. So the exaggerated role I assigned to prompted consciousness is completely wrong. Larry #81728 From: "pannabahulo" Date: Sat Jan 26, 2008 7:25 am Subject: Puggalavada and Theravada Buddhist teachings re: abhidhamma pannabahulo Dear Dhamma friends, I did say I would not post again until after the Bangkok seminars next month. But I have just come across the article copied and pasted below. In the Theravada tradition - and within the sangha iteslf - there is a wide split between those who accept the Abhidhamma Pitika as the teachings of the Buddha,and those who do not. Would anyone like to make some comment on the following article? I would be very interested to read them. with metta, Pannabahulo --------------------------------------------------------------------- Puggalavada and Theravada Buddhist teachings by D. Amarasiri Weeraratne Upto the time of the 2nd Council 200 years after the Buddha, there were no sectarian divisions among Buddhist monks. The Buddha had permitted the Sangha to change minor rules after his demise, according to the wishes of the fraternity and by a majority decision. In pursuance of this concession, the monks of the Vajji country well known for its republican form of government called for the adoption of ten minor changes in the Vinaya rules. The hard core orthodox and conservative monks headed by Revata and Sabbakami resisted these changes. Hence the conservative elders disallowed these changes. Consequently, the dissident monks broke away from the conservative elders (The Theras) and established the Mahasanghika Sect and held their own Sangha Council. Thus came about the first division in the Sangha. The Maha Sanghikas as their name implies constituted the majority of the Sangha. The Theras constituted a minority of hard core reactionaries who were opposed to an form of change. Between the 2nd and 3rd Councils 236 years after the Buddha the Conservative Elders (The Theras) broke off into two sects, viz: Vibjjavadins and Sautrantikas. Almost simultaneously the Mahasangikas also broke off into a sect called Puggalavadin. (Believers in persons.) The Vibjjavadins broke off into three sects, one of which was the Theravada - the Buddhism we have in Sri Lanka, Burma, Thailand, Cambodia, Laos etc. Thus you will see that the Puggalavada Sect and the Theravada Sect were the earliest of the sectarian divisions in Buddhism. Controversy on Abhidhamma The chief characteristic of the Puggalavada Sect was their rejection of the Abhidharma Pitaka as a teaching of the Buddha. They maintained that Abhidharma is apocryphal scripture cooked up by the Theravada Elders between the 2nd and 3rd Councils and adopted at the 3rd Council. The Puggalavadins as well as Sautranitikas rejected the Abhidharma Pitaka and had only 2 Pitakas viz: Sutta and Vinaya Pitakas. In the Suttas the Buddha speaks of a person who fares on in Sansara, performs good and bad deeds and receives reward or distribution for them. In fact the entire Sutta Pitaka is based on the assumption that there is a person (puggala) who is subject to the sufferings in Sansara. The purpose of the Buddha-Dhamma is to eliminate this suffering and help them to attain Nirvana. The Anatta concept The Abhidharma denies the existence of a person or an individual. It accepts only fleeting thought moments which arise and flash instantly. In this process there is no person or being. The Buddha taught the Suttas to men on earth, referring to a person. In the Abhidharma he is supposed to have preached to the gods in which he denies the existence of a person or an individual. In order to bridge the gulf of this inconsistency the Abhidharma scholars invented the theory of two truths. The Sutras are true in the conventional sense, and the Abhidharma is true in the ultimate sense which is the highest truth. The Puggalavadins could not accept the theory that the Buddha had taught two kinds of truth. Nowhere had he done so. The Theravadins cannot quote from any part of the Sutras where he has taught that there are two truths called Sammuti and Paramartha. Thus they refuted this contention and asserted that the Abhidharma Pitaka is a fabrication and required another concoction to maintain its validity. It is with the help of this fabrication that Abhidharma scholars reconcile the inconsistency in the Sutra and Abhidharma teachings. The Southern School of Buddhism Theravada Buddhism is Abhidharma oriented. All its commentaries and ancillary literature are written in a way to accommodate the Abhidarma. Ven. Buddhagosha asserted that the Abhidharma Pitaka is a teaching of the Buddha. But he himself admitted in the Atthasalini Commentary that there were ancient Sinhala Elders at Anuradhapura who challenged the validity of the Abhidharma Pitaka. They pointed out that the Buddha had taught in the Mahaparinirvana Sutra that we should not accept teachings presented to us in his name if they are inconsistent with the Sutra and the Vinaya teachings. They also asserted that in the Anagatabhaya Sutra the Buddha envisaged a time when monks will cook up doctrines and scriptures not taught by him and present them as the Buddha-word. He admonished his followers to carefully compare such teachings with the Sutras and the Vinaya and accept them only if they are compatible and consistent. Therefore Abhidharma being incompatible with the Sutra and Vinaya teaching was rejected by the Puggalawadins. The Sautrantika teachers too rejected the Abhidharma on the same grounds. The very name Sautrantika Sect means those who take only the Sutras as authoritative. The controversy on Antarbhava They accepted Abhidharma only to the extent that it is found in seed form in the Sutras. Another important teaching of the Puggalavadins was the doctrine of Antarabhava. The interim spirit existence between one life and another. This was denied by the Therevadins who asserted that the acceptance of Antarabhava by the Puggalavadins was due to a misunderstanding of some passages of the Sutras. The Puggalavadins maintained their position and showed that the misinterpretation of key passages is the work of Abhidharma oriented Theravada teachers, who tried to cut and hack the Buddha-word to suit their Abhidharma- oriented views. Their teaching was that their was no person, or being, but a mere flux of fleeting thought moments which are impersonal. The Puggalavadins considered this a bovine folly. Between the 2nd and 3rd Council, the Theravadins had compiled 7 Abhidharma books and asserted that except one other were the teachings of the Buddha preached in the Tavatismsa heaven to the gods. Not to be outdone the Sarvastivadin teachers also compiled 7 Abhidharma books and adopted them as their Abhidharma Pitaka. They were candid and frank enough to reveal the names of the authors of the books, unlike the Theravadins who took up the position that their 7 books contained preachings of the Buddha to the gods in the Tavatimsa heaven. The common denominator But an examination of the two Abhidharma Pitakas show too many discrepancies whereas their Sutra and Vinaya Pitakas are similar. This is clear proof that the Abhidharma Pitaka was composed after the monks broke off into sects. The Puggalavadins taught that a person or a pudgala who performs good and bad deeds reaps the results and fares on in Sansara until the attainment of Nirvana. The Bharahara Surta was the favourite text of the Pudgalavadins. Therein Buddha said" Bhara have Panchakkhando, Bharaharo Ca Puggalo." This means the five aggregates are a burden, the puggala or person is the burden bearer. Here clearly the Buddha distinguishes between the five groups of aggregates (skandas) and the person who bears them. But according to the Theravada Abhidharma the burden carries itself. There is no burden-bearer. This is what Buddhaghosha meant when he said in the Visuddhi Magga - the standard text of the Theravada - that" there is mere suffering but no sufferer exists". "There is the Noble Eightfold Path but no one traverses it". Buddhaghosha copied the idea from a verse in Nagarjuna's Mula Madhyama Karika - his magnum opus in which he ennunciates his Madhyamika philosophy with its central doctrine of Sunyata - the void. According to this, the whole world and all its phenomena are mirage, a dream, an illusion or" a castle in the air" as Nagarjuna put it. This is the Hindu doctrine of Maya dressed up in a Buddhist garb. The Puggalavadins taught that to deny the existence of a person is to bring down the whole edifice of the Buddha-Dharma. It is absurd to say that the burden carries itself, that mere suffering exists and there is no sufferer, or that the Path exists without anyone to tread the path. This is not Buddhism, it is the Buddhaghosha brand of Abhidharma Buddhism. The self and no-self The Puggalavadins point out that if there are no beings, the practise of Metta would not be possible, Karma and Rebirth would be meaningless, without a person faring on in Sansara. Memories of previous lives, the preaching of the Satipattana Sutra for the purification of beings and overcoming their sufferings would be meaningless, if there is no person. The Buddha said, "One person is born among men for the welfare and happiness of beings". Hundreds of such texts can be quoted from the Sutras. To deny a person in the ultimate sense (the highest truth) and accept him in a conventional sense is to talk with two tongues and dilute the truth of the Buddha-word. The Sutta Nipata says that "Buddhas have no two words." "Truth is one and not many". (Ekam hi saccam na dutiyamatthi). Two contrary truths is foreign to the Buddha's teaching. The chief difference between Puggalavada and Theravada comes with the acceptance and non-acceptance of the Abhidharma Pitaka as a teaching of the Buddha. Theravada is steeped in Abhidharma and is abhidharma oriented. The Puggala vadins have only two Pitakas namely Sutra and Vinaya Pitakas. The Puggalavadins took care not to use the word Atman or soul as is understood in Vedanta, i.e. an immutable self characterised by permanence, bliss and substance. The Puggala of the Pudgalavadins is a self that is subject to impermanence, unsatisfactoriness and is not to be considered as the essence or core for those reasons. This appears to be a halfway house between the Vedantic soul and the no-soul doctrine of the Theravadins. The Buddha is neither an anatmavadi nor atmavadi. The Puggalavadins teach that the puggala arises simultaneously with the five aggregates, is not within or outside them, but forms a structural unit with them. It is the astral body, secondary body or bio-plasamabody of modern Para-psychological research. Its existence and verifiability has been vindicated by 150 years of Psychical Research in the West in which very eminent scientists have taken part. It is the mano-kaya or the Suttas. If Buddhism is to be a practical religion of value to mankind, it must take into account and recognise the existence of persons or individuals - otherwise Buddhism falls flat and collapses like a pack of cards. When you deny a person, you have to deny the Buddha, his Dhamma and the Sangha. That reduces Buddhism to a force. The Island - 19 Sep 00 #81729 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Jan 26, 2008 7:30 am Subject: Apology/Tep (Re: [dsg] Re: Alleged Slowing Down of Mind States .. The Monkey...) dhammanusara Dear Howard, - I accept your apology about "coming on so strong", although there was nothing that you wrote needs my forgiveness. I am glad that you made it all loud & clear, like someone who shuts the door so loudly after walking away from a meeting. The sound catches attention of everyone! Indeed, you are right about (most of) the following. >Howard (#81715): >BTW, I would prefer that what I write be discussed on its own merits and demerits without attempting to categorize me in some fashion. To you it seems I'm an adherent "to DSG-styled abhidhamma" and one dedicated to "the principle of 'no controller' of conditioned dhammas." To others here I'm "a meditator attached to rite & ritual," and someone who can't distinguish "realities" from conventional objects that are alleged to be utterly nothing. Frankly, being hit on both sides makes me more confident of my being damn right, and possibly right in the middle of the middle way! I must be doing something right to upset [I was gonna say "piss off", but I thought better of it!] so many different sorts of people. In any case, I'd sure like the dropping of such useless and foolish characterizing. I don't like it one bit. Sorry, if that's a bit strong, but I didn't want you or anyone to be unsure of my stand on this. T: You said it clearly. Thank you for that -- i.e. for being truthful and bold enough to defend the truth. My sarcasm was not intended to be a "hit" or an attack at all, believe me. It has been my way of writing; a habit or 'vassana' (?), if you will. I hope you'd forgive me for that too. Okay, I'll drop "such useless and foolish characterizing". No problem, but it may take time (habits are hard to erase!) I think you should be glad that "many different sorts of people" care about what you think enough to express their (right or wrong) opinion . I am one of those members who would not write to any stupid person whose belief or opinion they don't care to mention. Yours truly, Tep === #81730 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jan 26, 2008 7:37 am Subject: Alone with Dhamma, Ch 1, no 4. nilovg Dear friends, When we were in Lumbini, the Buddha’s birth place, cricumambulating Asoka’s pillar, I could not find Lodewijk. I was very sad because I thought that this would be the last occasion that we would circumambulate together in this place. After a while he found me and we could continue together, paying respect to the Buddha. I remarked to him that the dosa that arose was a perfect subject of satipaììhåna. We never know what will happen the next moment and I realized that the greatest respect to the Buddha is being mindful of the dhamma that presents itself at the present moment. We may feel lonely, but in the ultimate sense we are alone with Dhamma, the teaching of the truth of life and death. We notice dosa and feel unpleasant feeling. We believe that we experience dosa, but we do not realize it as a dhamma, arising because of its proper conditions. I realized that noticing dosa is only thinking about it, and at such a moment there is still an idea of “my dosa”. Acharn Sujin said that understanding based on listening leads to thinking in the right way of nåma and rúpa; only if right understanding has become more firmly established, it can condition direct awareness of realities. If there are no conditions for it, it is impossible to be directly aware of dosa and realize it as a dhamma, non-self. At the first stage of insight, the difference betrween the characteristic of nåma and of rúpa is clearly realized, not before. One begins to understand nåma as nåma and rúpa as rúpa. This means, we begin to see the nåma that appears as a dhamma and the rúpa that appears as a dhamma. Before this stage of insight is reached, there is still a notion of “my dosa”, and “my lobha”, even though we have intellectual understanding of the fact that they are cetasikas, non-self. We have not really penetrated the truth of anattå. The wrong view of self is eradicated by the sotåpanna. He still has lobha and dosa but he does not take them for “self” and this makes a great deal of difference. At this stage paññå can see defilements as dhammas, arisen because of their own conditions. Attachment to sense objects and aversion are eradicated at the third stage of enlightenment, the stage of the non-returner. Paññå has to be developed in the right order, the right order in stages of insight, and stages of enlightenment. ****** Nina. #81731 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Jan 26, 2008 7:38 am Subject: Alleged Slowing Down of Mind States (Re: [dsg] Respnse to Re: my parody .... dhammanusara Hi Elaine (Howard and others), - You said it very well. I join Howard to say I agree with what you said about the continuity of mindfulness, arising in succession, makes us 'see' the arising and passing away of consciousness, as if it's in slow-motion". Thank you very much, Tep === #81732 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jan 26, 2008 7:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] the present moment nilovg Dear TG, Op 25-jan-2008, om 19:15 heeft TGrand458@... het volgende geschreven: > His teachings are so much more comprehensive than mere > awareness of what is happening now...and so much more > inspirational...and do so much > include things like -- "contemplation about" past states, future > states, > events of far off places, peoples, material things, etc. ------- N: O.K. I like to listen to you. In order to avoid long post, could you mention what inspires you, as you mention above. How it helps you? Nina. #81733 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jan 26, 2008 2:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Puggalavada and Theravada Buddhist teachings re: abhidhamma upasaka_howard Hi, Bhante - In a message dated 1/26/2008 10:25:59 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, pannabahulo@... writes: Dear Dhamma friends, I did say I would not post again until after the Bangkok seminars next month. But I have just come across the article copied and pasted below. In the Theravada tradition - and within the sangha iteslf - there is a wide split between those who accept the Abhidhamma Pitika as the teachings of the Buddha,and those who do not. Would anyone like to make some comment on the following article? I would be very interested to read them. with metta, Pannabahulo ================================ I've read it ... and dismissed it. For me it isn't worthy of an effort at refutation, being rife with error and false innuendo. And I am NOT a person who considers the Abhidhamma to be the word of the Buddha. (What is most laughable to me is the identification of the astral body with "the person.") I consider this article to be quite worthless. With metta, Howard #81734 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jan 26, 2008 7:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Removal of distracting thoughts. nilovg Dear Alex, I did not say that it was only for bhikkhus, but sutta and Co. just speak about the bhikkhu. We can also apply what is relevant to the householder. I just admired the Co and found it had quite touching examples. It is too long to repost but I would like to share it with you. Nina. Op 25-jan-2008, om 20:51 heeft Alex het volgende geschreven: > Do you or Nina or anyone here practices (meditation subjects) that > Nina has well said below? #81735 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jan 26, 2008 2:53 am Subject: Re: Apology/Tep (Re: [dsg] Re: Alleged Slowing Down of Mind States .. The Mon... upasaka_howard Dear Tep - Thank you for your kind acceptance. I do think that what I had written was remiss and inappropriate - I went too far and not without anger. In any case, I am most grateful for your very kind response. With metta, Howard #81736 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jan 26, 2008 8:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] My recent meditation experiences. Thinking regarding slowing down of mind. nilovg Hi Alex, Op 26-jan-2008, om 1:45 heeft Alex het volgende geschreven: > For my formal "meditations" I generally practice Metta. It works well > for making me go deep, quick and bliss out almost instanteneously. -------- N: But how does it help you in daily life, facing people? Does it help you to know when there is true metta, and when affection to dear people that may be mixed with attachment? Nina. #81737 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jan 26, 2008 8:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Are thoughts vipaka? nilovg Hi Phil, Op 26-jan-2008, om 13:17 heeft Phil het volgende geschreven: > Are thoughts vipaka? I find it easy to accept that seeing, hearing > etc are vipaka, but mental objects feel more like something the mind > produces as a result of responding to vipaka rather than vipaka > itself. > I heard Jon say something along this line in a talk once. ------- N: Thinking is not vipaaka, it is already kusala citta or akusala citta. We think so much in a day and we often do not know whether the citta is kusala or akusala, especially when the feeling that accompanies the citta is indifferent feeling. Phil, you wrote a very nice and helpful post about drinking. I like your gentle tone. Nina. #81738 From: Dieter Möller Date: Sat Jan 26, 2008 9:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Alleged Slowing Down of Mind States .. The Monkey Mind Model.... moellerdieter Hi Colette , thanks for your response.. you wrote: 'In my flitting research I now only have two pages left that I can print today so I breezed in here to see what's up where I found your reply at the top. I AM PREDJUDICED AND BIASED in this context since there isn't a person alive that can take away my confidence and belief in PRANAYAMA AS A MEANS TO or A METHODOLOGY TO calm the mind's thoughts. I've practiced pranayama in the early 80s when I was young and in a very good athletic condition so my cardiovascular system was clean and clear. You can call me a poster child for the benefits of breathing properly and for the truth found in Yogas and through Yogas.' D: interesting issue .. as far as I remember the Yoga practise ( please explain Pranayama) aims to controll the breathing, bringing it into a certain frequency most suitable for meditation, whereas the Buddhist anapansati sticks to the observance and proceeds with associating it with a variety of subjects for contemplation Hnece the the methology is different : in Yoga practise a given setting of out - and in-breathing vs. let the breathing settle in a natural way .. (e.g. following comment:The practitioner of meditation who consciously watches the breath in this manner should never try to control his breathing or hold back his breath with effort. For if he controls his breath or holds back his breath with conscious effort, he will become fatigued and his mental concentration will be disturbed and broken. The key to the practice is to set up mindfulness naturally at the spot where the in-breaths and the out-breaths are felt entering and leaving the nostrils. Then the meditator has to maintain his awareness of the touch sensation of the breath, keeping the awareness as steady and consistent as possible.) How do you see it ..? with Metta Dieter #81739 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Sat Jan 26, 2008 9:10 am Subject: Re: Alleged Slowing Down of Mind States (Re: [dsg] Respnse to Re: my parody .... dcwijeratna Hi Tep, Elaine, I have very little knowledge of the discussion. But a thought arose in me when I read it. Here it is: Tep>: "You said it very well. I join Howard to say I agree with what you said about the continuity of mindfulness, arising in succession, makes us 'see' the arising and passing away of consciousness, as if it's in slow-motion" . I thought consciousness passes away only in Nirodha-samaapatti or sa~n~naa-vedaita nirodha. May be this is out of context. But please see whether there is anything in that. As long as we 'see' consciousness is present, I thought. D. G. D. C. Wijeratna #81740 From: "Phil" Date: Sat Jan 26, 2008 9:23 am Subject: Re: Are thoughts vipaka? philofillet Hi Nina > N: Thinking is not vipaaka, it is already kusala citta or akusala > citta. We think so much in a day and we often do not know whether the > citta is kusala or akusala, especially when the feeling that > accompanies the citta is indifferent feeling. I can see that thinking is not vipaaka. It is so productive, the active side vs. the passive side as you said about vipaka to someone. But in vipaka there are mental objects, aren't there? What are mental objects? You know, we debate/disagree so often about many things, but I think of all issues the very most important is knowing vipaka from kusala/akusala citta/kamma. > Phil, you wrote a very nice and helpful post about drinking. I like > your gentle tone. Thanks. I think the most valuable thing about DSG is exercising good manners, gentle tone. More important even than the content of posts, in a way, in my opinion. Metta, Phil #81741 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jan 26, 2008 4:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Are thoughts vipaka? upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Phil) - In a message dated 1/26/2008 11:27:48 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Phil, Op 26-jan-2008, om 13:17 heeft Phil het volgende geschreven: > Are thoughts vipaka? I find it easy to accept that seeing, hearing > etc are vipaka, but mental objects feel more like something the mind > produces as a result of responding to vipaka rather than vipaka > itself. > I heard Jon say something along this line in a talk once. ------- N: Thinking is not vipaaka, it is already kusala citta or akusala citta. We think so much in a day and we often do not know whether the citta is kusala or akusala, especially when the feeling that accompanies the citta is indifferent feeling. Phil, you wrote a very nice and helpful post about drinking. I like your gentle tone. Nina. =================================== It seems to me that thinking is result of cetana. Does that not make it vipaka? The cetana that is condition for thinking is kamma, and the thinking must be kamma vipaka. What else, if not that? The cetana will be wholesome, unwholesome, or neutral, and the thinking will correspondingly be that - derivatively. It is true that much of the time thoughts seem to "just come on their own," but that is not so. Thinking arises from conditions that include cetana. The cetana is impersonal mental activity and involves no literal actor or agent. When it seems that "we " are producing thought, that is simply the sense-of-self delusion in effect. When thoughts seem to come on their own, that is either clear seeing of impersonality or, on the other hand, is a matter of being unaware of the impulsive activity of cetana. The perfect perspective on thinking, it seems to me, is seeing it as activity conditioned by (impersonal) volition. Though the conditioning cetana is not vipaka, it sure seems to me that the resultant thinking (or the aggregation of mind states that make up the thinking) is. How could it not be? With metta, Howard #81742 From: Dieter Möller Date: Sat Jan 26, 2008 9:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Alleged Slowing Down of Mind States .. The Monkey Mind Model.... moellerdieter Hi Tep, Alex ... you wrote: Tep: I meant something else that is slightly different. "It is as if two sheaves of reeds were to stand leaning against one another. In the same way, from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness, from consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. [SN 12.67 Nalakalapiyo; Sutta Sheaves of Reeds] So the consciousness which is a 'nama' supports 'form' in the 'name-&-form', and vice versa. Mind controls body; yet body affects mind too (psychosomatic). D: there is without doubt interrelation , no real separation possible. But when conscíousness is called nama too ( Abh. only?) then the part of the D.O. chain - ...vinnaya conditions nama/rupa .. - can cause confusion Tep: (D: you may find plenty of explanations in Google links ... I refered to it in order to show the aspect of speed in relation to calm/ to slow down .. for our practise it is possibly only interesting to know..) Okay, thanks. D: thinking about it , we should keep the issue of frequency and its relation to tranquility in mind , in particular when it supports easier access to 'neighbourhood concentration' Should you have time it may be worthwhile to look into respective links (e.g. brainwaves, sound waves ..) , and discuss interesting matters.. Alex seems to be interested as well Tep: About this lasting stillness characteristic -- you don't mean mind (citta) in the 2nd jhana does not conform to the Abhidhamma principle of conditioned dhammas (that has been the main theme of DSG) ? D: by 'lasting stillness ' I meant the subsiding of thought conception and discursive thinking , the sixt sense activity after detachment from the other 5 senses in the first Jhana. I do not understand how you relate that to the 'Abhidhamma principle of conditioned dhammas (that has been the main theme of DSG) ?' When we talk about conditioned dhammas, we refer to D.O. , don't we? In my opinion we must be very careful not to let us confuse in 'our fact finding' through meditation by hearsay from Abhidhamma texts. First we need to see ourselves / gather experience with the support from respective sutta guidelines .. with Metta Dieter #81743 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jan 26, 2008 4:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Alleged Slowing Down of Mind States .. The Monkey Mind Model.... upasaka_howard Hi, Dieter (and Tep & Alex) - In a message dated 1/26/2008 12:48:55 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, moellerdieter@... writes: Hi Tep, Alex ... you wrote: Tep: I meant something else that is slightly different. "It is as if two sheaves of reeds were to stand leaning against one another. In the same way, from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness, from consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. [SN 12.67 Nalakalapiyo; Sutta Sheaves of Reeds] So the consciousness which is a 'nama' supports 'form' in the 'name-&-form', and vice versa. Mind controls body; yet body affects mind too (psychosomatic). D: there is without doubt interrelation , no real separation possible. But when conscà is called nama too ( Abh. only?) then the part of the D.O. chain - ...vinnaya conditions nama/rupa .. - can cause confusion ====================================== Interestingly (to me), in the definition of 'namarupa', consciousness is not included. There is the following from MN 9, a sutta, BTW, and not from the Abhidhamma Pitaka or the commentaries: Feeling, perception, volition, contact and attention — these are called mentality. The four great elements and the material form derived from the four great elements — these are called materiality. So this mentality and this materiality are what is called mentality-materiality. With the arising of consciousness there is the arising of mentality-materiality. With the cessation of consciousness there is the cessation of mentality-materiality. With metta, Howard #81744 From: Dieter Möller Date: Sat Jan 26, 2008 10:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] My recent meditation experiences. Thinking regarding slowing down of mind. moellerdieter Hi Alex ( Tep, Howard...) you wrote: For my formal "meditations" I generally practice Metta. It works well for making me go deep, quick and bliss out almost instanteneously. Almost every if not every day (except when I am badly sick), in about 5 minutes or less I start blissing out. The feeling of bliss & happiness is much more refined than coarse materialistic pleasures. My body feels more like energy than stone, and it has strange wobbling feeling, as if my body was moving front and backs. I used to have feelings which were like me passing out and falling forwards only to a split second later move the spine back (no, I definately was not sleepy. Whenever I feel drowsy and can't get out of it, I quit sitting.) D: thanks for sharing, Alex. There are several meditation teachers who put the Metta contemplation in the first place before starting with the body.. I do not have such special experience of bliss like you mention.. but I believe it has much to do with the acceptance or wellcome of our here and now situation in particular to our fellow beings. The unwholesome issue of aversion is touched , isn't it? Alex: Thoughts start to diminish much more and I percieve emptiness in between them, not to mention black void. The mind calms down. It is more and more empty and slow (in a sense of less things going on). Howard, it does feels like the mind is slowing down. More and more moments of the mind are either empty, blissful or equinimous. No this restless 1000 beats per second sort of inner emergencies going on. It is like a movie tape which is being played at a much SLOWER pace. D: I think so too.. the motor is slowing down .. as I see it , the calm level/lower gear takes the urge from our overactivity we occupy ourselves in daily life.. It may be worthwhile to talk about the relation with the 5 hindrances.. with Metta Dieter #81745 From: Dieter Möller Date: Sat Jan 26, 2008 10:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Alleged Slowing Down of Mind States .. The Monkey Mind Model.... moellerdieter Hi Howard , Tep ,Alex... you wrote: 'Interestingly (to me), in the definition of 'namarupa', consciousness is not included. There is the following from MN 9, a sutta, BTW, and not from the Abhidhamma Pitaka or the commentaries: Feeling, perception, volition, contact and attention — these are called mentality. The four great elements and the material form derived from the four great elements — these are called materiality. So this mentality and this materiality are what is called mentality-materiality. With the arising of consciousness there is the arising of mentality-materiality. With the cessation of consciousness there is the cessation of mentality-materiality. ' D: that is what I have in mind too .. do you know of any sutta source where vinnaya is called nama? Could it be that the translation of 'nama' as mind (which is often use as synonym to consciousness) triggered the confusion? I remember having read that even nibbana was called 'nama ' , which makes no sense at all.. with Metta Dieter #81746 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Jan 26, 2008 10:58 am Subject: Re: Buddha's Instructions For A Long-term Formal Develoment In Satipatthaana Sut scottduncan2 Dear Suan, Regarding: S: "And, please also note the verb `sikkhati', to practice. Whenever we see the Pali verb `sikkhati' in such situations, the Buddha was instructing us to undertake a long-term formal development in order to achieve in future something we are unable to do now." Scott: Forgive the sophomoric recourse to concrete dictionary definitions, but, the PTS PED suggests the following regarding 'sikkhati': "1. to learn, to train oneself (=gha.tati vaayamati Vism 274); usually combined with the locative, thus sikkhaa -- padesu s. to train oneself in the Sikkhaapadas...also with the dative, indicating the purpose; thus vinayaaya s. to train oneself to give up Sn 974; the thing acquired by training is also put in the accusative; thus nibbaana.m s. to learn, to train oneself towards Nibbaana Sn 940, 1061; Miln 10; Pot. sikkheyyaasi Miln 10; sikkheyyaama D ii.245; sikkhema Sn 898; sikkhe Sn 974; sikkheyya Sn 930. Fut. sikkhissaami Vin iv.141; sikkhissaamase Sn 814; ppr. sikkhanto Sn 657; ppr. med. sikkhamaana training oneself Vin iv.141; D ii.241; It 104, 121; sikkhamaanaa (f.) a young woman undergoing a probationary course of training in order to become a nun...; grd. sikkhitabba Vin i.83; J vi.296; M i.123; D ii.138; Miln 10; & sikkha that ought to be learnt Miln 10; inf. sikkhitu.m Vin i.84, 270; ger. sikkhitvaa Miln 219. -- 2. to want to overcome, to try, tempt D ii.245. -- pp. sikkhita. <-> Caus. II. sikkhaapeti to teach, to train..." Scott: You suggest it means 'to practise'. How do you see this as an appropriate translation? Do you distinguish between conventional and ultimate levels of discourse? Can you conceive of the verb 'sikkhati' in relation to dhammas only, and not in reference to 'person'? That is, is it not possible to consider that the 'training' relates to the development of dhammas in terms of 'strength', and not to the conventional notion of a person doing something? Sincerely, Scott. #81747 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jan 26, 2008 6:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Alleged Slowing Down of Mind States .. The Monkey Mind Model.... upasaka_howard Hi, Dieter (and Tep & Alex) - In a message dated 1/26/2008 1:37:18 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, moellerdieter@... writes: Hi Howard , Tep ,Alex... you wrote: 'Interestingly (to me), in the definition of 'namarupa', consciousness is not included. There is the following from MN 9, a sutta, BTW, and not from the Abhidhamma Pitaka or the commentaries: Feeling, perception, volition, contact and attention — these are called mentality. The four great elements and the material form derived from the four great elements — these are called materiality. So this mentality and this materiality are what is called mentality-materiality. With the arising of consciousness there is the arising of mentality-materiality. With the cessation of consciousness there is the cessation of mentality-materiality. ' D: that is what I have in mind too .. do you know of any sutta source where vinnaya is called nama? ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I do not, though I think of vi~n~nana as nama. At _http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha205.htm_ (http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha205.htm) , Kalupahana writes the following: In the Suttas, nama is used to refer to all aspects of mind except consciousness itself. In later texts, it usually also includes consciousness. As 'name' it essentially refers to those states which are intensional: which take an object. According to the Abhidhamma, this differentiates all such states from the rupa states, which never take an object (Dhs. 1408). On the other hand, states of nama (i.e. mental states) have no rupa, or 'form', 'material shape'. --------------------------------------------------------- Could it be that the translation of 'nama' as mind (which is often use as synonym to consciousness) triggered the confusion? I remember having read that even nibbana was called 'nama ' , which makes no sense at all.. with Metta Dieter ========================= With metta, Howard #81748 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Jan 26, 2008 11:29 am Subject: Alleged Slowing Down of Mind States .. DC's Question .. dhammanusara Hello friend DC (Elaine), - Now you don't seem to write as often as you used to. > DC: > I have very little knowledge of the discussion. But a thought arose in me when I read it. Here it is: > > Tep>: > "You said it very well. I join Howard to say I agree with what you said about the continuity of mindfulness, arising in succession, makes us 'see' the arising and passing away of consciousness, as if it's in slow-motion" . .............. >DC: I thought consciousness passes away only in Nirodha-samaapatti or sa~n~naa-vedaita nirodha. May be this is out of context. But please see whether there is anything in that. As long as we 'see' consciousness is present, I thought. > T: Don't you accept the Buddha's Teachings that consciousness, being a conditioned dhamma, arises and passes away all the time? "It would be better for the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person to hold to the body composed of the four great elements, rather than the mind, as the self. Why is that? Because this body composed of the four great elements is seen standing for a year, two years, three, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, a hundred years or more. But what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another. Just as a monkey, swinging through a forest wilderness, grabs a branch. Letting go of it, it grabs another branch. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. In the same way, what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another. [SN 12.61 Assutava Sutta; Uninstructed] Your friend, Tep === #81749 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Jan 26, 2008 11:59 am Subject: Re: Alleged Slowing Down of Mind States .. The Monkey Mind Model.... dhammanusara Hi Dieter (and Alex), - I agree that we continue to discuss the "interesting matters" in the subject areas that you mentioned, although my background knowledge on brain waves and frequency right now is nil. So I suggest that you and Alex be the discussion leaders. > >Tep: About this lasting stillness characteristic -- you don't mean mind (citta) in the 2nd jhana does not conform to the Abhidhamma principle of conditioned dhammas (that has been the main theme of DSG) ? >D: by 'lasting stillness ' I meant the subsiding of thought conception and discursive thinking , the sixth sense activity after detachment from the other 5 senses in the first Jhana. I do not understand how you relate that to the 'Abhidhamma principle of conditioned dhammas (that has been the main theme of DSG) ?' When we talk about conditioned dhammas, we refer to D.O. , don't we? T: It is good to have a clear idea beforehand about the general or specific nature of our discussion; that's why I asked the question. Now I know that when " we talk about conditioned dhammas, we refer to D.O.". That is fair enough. >D: In my opinion we must be very careful not to let us confuse in 'our fact finding' through meditation by hearsay from Abhidhamma texts. First we need to see ourselves / gather experience with the support from respective sutta guidelines .. T: It is less complicated for sure, if we only depend on the suttas as the main support for the discussion. Thanks. Looking forward to continue the discussion, Tep === #81750 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Jan 26, 2008 12:31 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Alleged Slowing Down of Mind States .. The Monkey Mind Model.... dhammanusara Hi Dieter, Howard (and Alex), - We are discussing what nama really means >D: Could it be that the translation of 'nama' as mind (which is often use as synonym to consciousness) triggered the confusion? I remember having read that even nibbana was called 'nama ' , which makes no sense at all.. T: From Howard's latest post the meanings of 'nama' (mentality) may be summarized as follows. Budsas.org: "In the Suttas, nama is used to refer to all aspects of mind except consciousness itself. In later texts, it usually also includes consciousness". MN 9 : "Feeling, perception, volition, contact and attention â€" these are called mentality". I found ATI Glossary useful too. nama [naama]: Mental phenomena. This term refers to the mental components of the five khandhas, and includes: vedana (feeling), sañña (perception), sankhara (mental fashionings), and viññana (consciousness). T: Note that the five aggregates completely define nama & rupa, thus it is clear that 'nama' also means arupa : i.e. whatever dhammas that are not rupa(form = the four great elements) must be nama. Since Nibbana is not in the khandhas, so Nibbana is not a nama. Tep === #81751 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Jan 26, 2008 1:09 pm Subject: Re: My recent meditation experiences. Thinking regarding slowing down of mind. dhammanusara Hi Alex (Dieter and other friends), - Thank you very much for posting your jhana experience through metta- bhavana. I hope you may be interested in answering my following questions. Your answer will give me ideas how to practice it myself. 1. How do you prepare the mind at the beginning of each metta practice-session? 2. How do you spread out loving-kindness thought in all six directions? 3. What conditions prompt the mind to "go deep, quick and bliss out almost instanteneously"? 4. What are the benfits you have realized? Best wishes, Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > > Hello all, > > For my formal "meditations" I generally practice Metta. It works well > for making me go deep, quick and bliss out almost instanteneously. > > #81752 From: "colette" Date: Sat Jan 26, 2008 7:58 am Subject: "Tripe face boogie, boogie my scrupples away." Little Feet ksheri3 Good Morning Scott, I have other things to be doing right now but decided to breeze through and see what messages caught my eye. Lucky you, your message, for some reason jumped out and said "Pick me, pick me" as if it was a Sweathog in the TV show "Welcome Back Kotter". I know I'm gonna be getting "real small" as Steve Martin would say on the TV show Saturday Night Live (I can't wait, after about 4, four, years of working this on the net I'm FINALLY going to be getting to use the joke "you sleigh me brother", I don't know when but I have always wanted to use that terminology in a Western Myserties context on a Western site/forum since it, the joke, is based upon a Russian immigrant, THEN, in the mid 70s, it would have been a joke concerning the Soviets and the Soviet political party system, and I HAVE LOTS OF RUSSIAN FRIENDS, in fact it took me three days, in 1982, to walk from the Greyhound bus depot in Washington D.C., the few blocks to the Soviet embassy since the same jogger would appear out of nowhere, flash his I.D., tell me to sit down that somebody wanted to talk to me, then one of the many cars used by the many Intelligence agencies in the U.S.A. would drive up, and I'd get the same schtick every time, BUT the fact is that the Reagan/Bush ideology THEN still applies today where we find the Past Dharma the exact same as the Present Dharma and the entire intentions of those leaders was and is to manipulate and control THE FUTURE DHARMA as if it was THEIR BAUBLE, THEIR TRINKET, THEIR PROPERTY THAT THIS STINKING CREATOR DIETY ORDAINED THEM TO POSSESS AND ABUSE, ENSLAVE, TORTURE, THE PUBLIC WITH FOR THEIR AMUSEMENT). <.....> Let me pull back on the reigns there! It seems my horsey got a little goin and I was getting out of control on one of my numerous PET PIEVES that have bothered me since 1978 "Thinking regarding slowing down of mind." Racing thoughts. As I've said when I first found that people do study this stuff that I study, concerning the viability and usage of "magik" as a tool, in 2004 in the Western Traditions area of forums I told people that "this stuff is like a drug to me, I luv this stuff, and when I get goin' I cannot determine what is Vice and what is Virtue, they become the same thing" which means that I now know one of my characteristics better: I encountered this post and could not leave it without interacting with it; it THEN, injected itself into my bloodstream as I got goin' here creating/writing; which equates nicely to what Rab. Isaac Luria said about his experiences with Kaballah being that his mind was overflowing with REALIZATION that he couldn't possibly get his hands to move fast enough to write it all down; AND THIS IS EVIDENCE OF THAT EXACT SAME CONCEPT which I am certainly afflicted by But if we look and analyse the WEstern psychological psychiatric condition of Racing Thoughts, which require drugs to control according to a corporate heirarchy and a medical profession which refuses to allow humans to live without the use of drugs as that force which gives, brings forth, life. WHICH I WILL NOT ALLOW TO HAPPEN AND WILL FIGHT AGAINST -- hmmmm, THANK YOU THANISSARO: "I sally forth to fight, that I may not be driven from my post (Maa ma.m .thaanaa acaavayi)." But I digress. > A: "For my formal "meditations" I generally practice Metta. It works > well for making me go deep, quick and bliss out almost > instanteneously..." > > Scott: Why do you think that this is important for me to know about? colette: this is the sentence that brought me no choice but to comment,post, reply. Scott, for you to "know" REQUIRES that you are in a state of "BEING" which is quite impossible under the requirements given to us in the Doctrine of Sunyata". This means that you have crystalized yourself, or polarised yourself in an EXTREME so that you can THEN turn around and polarise another individual since you started the sentence by saying "Why do you think...", WHICH LEADS ME TO COGNIZING: that you intentionally manifest DUALITY as the mode, means, with which to validate your existance as if you actually do exist. Here comes the greater of the stretches of imagination, you have COGNIZED Alex specifically for CREATING YOU: You would not exist if it was not for the Existance of Alex, but more importantly, YOU CREATE HOW ALEX IS TO EXIST, of your own free will and choice, SO THAT YOU CAN EXIST IN A WAY THAT SPECIFICALLY GRATIFIES YOU. Ain't that one helluva stretch? <...> BAsically that's all I wanted to say about the single sentence that you put that got me goin' WAAAAAAAY OUT THERE as I brought back the Past Dharma to the Present Dharma based upon the PRAVDA as I know it. What a run-a-round, huh? Maybe I should listen to Humble Pie's album called SMOKIN' or is that part of the script used from the movie THE MASK? "Somebody stop me", no? thanx for putting up with that diatribe, that rant and rave. toodles, colette #81753 From: "colette" Date: Sat Jan 26, 2008 8:04 am Subject: correction ksheri3 Sorry Thanissaro, I gave you credit for writing/translating this paper on Maara, that Alex was kind enough to show me, and now I see that it was Ananda W.P. Guruge that translated and wrote the paper. Pardon my neglicence. toodles, #81754 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Jan 26, 2008 1:10 pm Subject: Feeling! bhikkhu0 Friends: Feeling (Vedanã): Causes & Effects: Definitions: There is Pleasant Feeling = mental gladness & bodily pleasure. There is Painful Feeling = mental sadness & bodily pain. There is neither Pleasant nor Painful Feeling = neutral indifference. Dynamics: Pleasant Feeling is agreeable when arising, yet disagreeable when ceasing! Painful Feeling is disagreeable when arising, yet agreeable when ceasing! Neutral Feeling is quite agreeable, when one is aware of its presence, yet quite dull & disagreeable, when one is unaware of its presence! Side-Effects: If Unaware, Pleasant Feeling will inevitably cause the arising of Desire & Craving! If Aware, Pleasant Feeling will not cause the arising of neither Desire nor Craving! If Unaware, Painful Feeling will inevitably cause the arising of Aversion & Anger. If Aware, Painful Feeling will not cause the arising of neither Aversion nor Anger. If Unaware, Neutral Feeling will inevitably cause the arising of Neglect & Ignorance. If Aware, Neutral Feeling will not cause arising of neither Neglect nor Ignorance. Near Causes: The Cause of Feeling is Contact: Eye-contact, Ear-contact, Nose-contact, Tongue-contact, Body-contact or Mental-contact. At the momentary ceasing of Contact, the associated feeling also instantly ceases. Effects: The Effect of the phenomena Feeling is -in the case- of Unawareness: Craving towards the object = Attraction, when the feeling is pleasant. Craving away from the object = Repulsion, when the feeling is painful. Craving towards 'other' than object = neglect, when the feeling is neutral. Characteristics: Feeling is -as everything else- that is conditioned & constructed: Transient, impermanent, passing, unkeepable, & unmaintainable. Dissatisfactory, disappointing, frustrating, painful, & miserable. Impersonal, selfless, ownerless, & not-Me-nor-I-nor-Mine-nor-Self. Paradox: There is this changing phenomena Feeling, yet there is no Feeler... Buddha said: Everything converges on this Feeling... <...> Friendship is the Greatest * Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka :-) .... #81755 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat Jan 26, 2008 2:24 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Preserving the Buddha's Teachings, Ch 4, no 3. kenhowardau Hi DC, On the subject of not writing sooner, please don't worry on my account. I am notorious for that sort of thing. It is hard to know where to draw the line, but we can't be clogging the list with messages that simply say "Thank you," and "Not at all, it was nothing," "No, really, you were very kind, thank you again," "No, I insist . . " and so on (on and on). :-) Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, DC Wijeratna wrote: > > Hell Ken H, > > Many thanks for ringing up Andrew. I appreciate it very much. > > Sorry I didn't write to you sooner. > #81756 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Jan 26, 2008 2:26 pm Subject: Re: Puggalavada and Theravada Buddhist teachings re: abhidhamma buddhatrue Hi Ven. Pannabahulo, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "pannabahulo" wrote: > In the Theravada tradition - and within the sangha iteslf - there is > a wide split between those who accept the Abhidhamma Pitika as the > teachings of the Buddha,and those who do not. > Would anyone like to make some comment on the following article? I > would be very interested to read them. I find this to be a very interesting article. It doesn't hide it's attempt to present an opinion, but that's okay in my book. I am very interested in what the Puggalavada actually believed. Just because someone rejects the Abhidhamma, that doesn't mean they believe in a self. It is only those with a dogmatic adherence to the Abhidhamma who see anything else as heresy. I am not sure if what is presented today about the Puggalavada is fact or just the result of a slur campaign by the early Theravada. The Buddha said that the Dhamma is very difficult to grasp because it is subtle and deep. However, the Abhidhamma is very easy to grasp. Anyone with an educational background in science can easily grasp the Abhidhamma. Once you get past the Pali terminology, it is absurdly easy to grasp. This puts up red flags for me. The Dhamma is not supposed to be so easy to grasp for the common person. It may be what the Puggalavada taught, which is very difficult to grasp, is much closer to the Buddha's teaching. Metta, James #81757 From: "Alex" Date: Sat Jan 26, 2008 2:55 pm Subject: Re: My recent meditation experiences. Thinking regarding slowing down of mind. truth_aerator Dear Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Dear Alex, > > Regarding: > > A: "For my formal "meditations" I generally practice Metta. It works > well for making me go deep, quick and bliss out almost > instanteneously..." > > Scott: Why do you think that this is important for me to know about? > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > Dear Scott, you just proved that there is a Scott who read my post and replied to it. There is also Scott who is reading THIS. Furthermore your reply shows quite a bit about yourself, but don't worry, I am also far from perfect and have many shameful qualities. Lots of Metta, Alex #81758 From: "Alex" Date: Sat Jan 26, 2008 3:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] My recent meditation experiences. Thinking regarding slowing down of mind. truth_aerator Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Alex, . > -------- > N: But how does it help you in daily life, facing people? Does it > help you to know when there is true metta, and when affection to dear > people that may be mixed with attachment? > Nina. > I am definately less angry, it follows well the Noble 8Fold path (especially the right intention limb, better than anapanasati), and as a sitting method it works fairly well at certain times. Of course, attachment may be a problem which is why I tend to send Metta to people far away, those to whom I can't be attached much. Of course I often stumble, trip over and fall. It is all part of growing up (in Metta). I know one thing: A journey of 1000 miles start with a single step. If I give up, then NOTHING will get done. If I fall 100 times, I need to get up 101 times. Lots of Metta, Alex #81759 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jan 26, 2008 10:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] My recent meditation experiences. Thinking regarding slowing down o... upasaka_howard Hi, Alex - In a message dated 1/26/2008 6:02:36 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, truth_aerator@... writes: If I fall 100 times, I need to get up 101 times. ============================== As for 101: Only if you start out lying on the ground to begin with! ;-)) With metta, Howard #81760 From: "Alex" Date: Sat Jan 26, 2008 3:07 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] My recent meditation experiences. Thinking regarding slowing down of mind. truth_aerator Hi Dieter, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Dieter Möller wrote: > > Hi Alex ( Tep, Howard...) > > D: thanks for sharing, Alex. > There are several meditation teachers who put the Metta contemplation in the first place before starting with the body.. >>>> Metta is the best worldly merit, and as we know, Merit is crucial towards success. I hope that it is a secret to getting to the goal faster. It appears that Buddha taught (or mentioned) Metta more often than Anapana... >>> > I do not have such special experience of bliss like you mention.. >>> Maybe you manage to go strait towards Equinimity or Happiness? Which are higher? Lots of Metta, Alex #81761 From: "Alex" Date: Sat Jan 26, 2008 3:18 pm Subject: Re: My recent meditation experiences. Thinking regarding slowing down of mind. truth_aerator Hi Tep and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Hi Alex (Dieter and other friends), - > > Thank you very much for posting your jhana experience through metta- > bhavana. I hope you may be interested in answering my following > questions. Your answer will give me ideas how to practice it myself. > > 1. How do you prepare the mind at the beginning of each metta > practice-session? >>> I remember or imagine times when I was happy using inner verbalization and imagination. I develop friendly feeling in my chest. I spread it towards myself, forgive myself for any past deeds and wish myself well. Sometimes I imagine white hearts sending them (I know, this isn't part of instructions. I should drop this ASAP) I spread it towards few Monks who I have good feelings for. Then I change instructions a bit. I spread (or try to) it towards entire earth, galaxy, universe, multiverse. Spread it in 6 directions. >>> > 2. How do you spread out loving-kindness thought in all six > directions? >>>> Maybe I am being impatient here trying to do that. As I understand this it is either spreading friendly vibes whereever I am facing as you are doing daily activities, or do one quarter in each turn. > 3. What conditions prompt the mind to "go deep, quick and bliss out > almost instanteneously"? >>>> Letting go (temporarily and for a very short while) of sensuality, unwholesome mental states and physical seclusion (in my room and not in a bar or something). >>> > 4. What are the benfits you have realized? >>>> Blissing out almost every day. Generally more inner quite, less inner chatter. Again, I am a beginner not a master. Lots of Metta, Alex #81762 From: "Alex" Date: Sat Jan 26, 2008 3:49 pm Subject: Re: Puggalavada and Theravada Buddhist teachings re: abhidhamma truth_aerator Dear Bhante, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "pannabahulo" wrote: > > Dear Dhamma friends, > I did say I would not post again until after the Bangkok seminars > next month. But I have just come across the article copied and pasted > below. > In the Theravada tradition - and within the sangha iteslf - there is > a wide split between those who accept the Abhidhamma Pitika as the > teachings of the Buddha,and those who do not. > Would anyone like to make some comment on the following article? I > would be very interested to read them. > with metta, > Pannabahulo > -------------------------------------------------------------------- Please post MORE of these articles here. They are very well said and mostly very true! - > Puggalavada and Theravada Buddhist teachings > by D. Amarasiri Weeraratne > > Upto the time of the 2nd Council 200 years after the Buddha, there > were no sectarian divisions among Buddhist monks. The Buddha had > permitted the Sangha to change minor rules after his demise, > according to the wishes of the fraternity and by a majority decision. >>> True. This is one of the proofs that 4 Nikayas are the earliest. There are no mention of these huge Mahayana "hina" yana splits. >>> Thus you will see that the Puggalavada > Sect and the Theravada Sect were the earliest of the sectarian > divisions in Buddhism. >>>> I don't believe that what we call Theravada is the earliest. No it is definately not as it formed in the 3rd council. > Controversy on Abhidhamma > > The chief characteristic of the Puggalavada Sect was their rejection of the Abhidharma Pitaka as a teaching of the Buddha. >>> Sadhu, Sadhu, Sadhu!!!! >>>>>> They maintained > that Abhidharma is apocryphal scripture cooked up by the Theravada > Elders between the 2nd and 3rd Councils and adopted at the 3rd > Council. >>>> True. I've read somewhere that Abhidhamma was more like a philosophical treatese, a manifesto stating the views of the particular school on metaphysical issues. > In the Suttas the Buddha speaks of a person who fares on in Sansara, > performs good and bad deeds and receives reward or distribution for > them. In fact the entire Sutta Pitaka is based on the assumption that > there is a person (puggala) who is subject to the sufferings in > Sansara. The purpose of the Buddha-Dhamma is to eliminate this > suffering and help them to attain Nirvana. >>> This is true. There is, atleast on "conventional" level a person. Infact there IS induvidiality. My kamma is mine, not yours. When I die, I'll get reborn. If I hit myself, then I'll get hurt - not you. Ven. Sariputta is different from some monk. > The Anatta concept > The Puggalavadins could not accept the theory that the Buddha had > taught two kinds of truth. Nowhere had he done so. The Theravadins > cannot quote from any part of the Sutras where he has taught that > there are two truths called Sammuti and Paramartha. >>>> Yep. I am yet to see a quote about two truths. The two truth's doctrine is a convinient way to reinterpret such words as atta (which Buddha used MORE than anatta) or mahatta, etc. > > The Southern School of Buddhism > > Theravada Buddhism is Abhidharma oriented. All its commentaries and > ancillary literature are written in a way to accommodate the > Abhidarma. Ven. Buddhagosha asserted that the Abhidharma Pitaka is a > teaching of the Buddha. >>>> Does AP itself asserts that it was taught by the Buddha? >>>>>>> But he himself admitted in the Atthasalini > Commentary that there were ancient Sinhala Elders at Anuradhapura who > challenged the validity of the Abhidharma Pitaka. >>>> I am glad that Buddhaghosa did the right thing in this case. May it accrue him lots of Merit. Good for those Elders! If there were more good monks like those. > They pointed out that the Buddha had taught in the Mahaparinirvana > Sutra that we should not accept teachings presented to us in his name > if they are inconsistent with the Sutra and the Vinaya teachings. ><<<>>> Yep, Buddha said Dhamma-Vinaya. Those who claim that Dhamma includes AbhiDhamma, please give me a SUTTA quote where Buddha says that Dhamma includes ABHIDHAMMA (please no vyakarana quote). > > > Between the 2nd and 3rd Council, the Theravadins had compiled 7 > Abhidharma books and asserted that except one other were the > teachings of the Buddha preached in the Tavatismsa heaven to the > gods. >>> It is funny how Abhidhamma which was written to deny "Soul" (Atta), which Buddha NEVER DID, through instanteneous mind-moments doctrine, was taught to Angels and Gods!!! How funny! LOL! Not to be outdone the Sarvastivadin teachers also compiled 7 > Abhidharma books and adopted them as their Abhidharma Pitaka. They > were candid and frank enough to reveal the names of the authors of > the books, unlike the Theravadins who took up the position that their 7 books contained preachings of the Buddha to the gods in the > Tavatimsa heaven. >>>> So true! > The common denominator > > But an examination of the two Abhidharma Pitakas show too many > discrepancies whereas their Sutra and Vinaya Pitakas are similar. > This is clear proof that the Abhidharma Pitaka was composed after the monks broke off into sects. >>> True! > The Puggalavadins taught that to deny the existence of a person is to bring down the whole edifice of the Buddha-Dharma. It is absurd to > say that the burden carries itself, that mere suffering exists and > there is no sufferer, or that the Path exists without anyone to tread > the path. This is not Buddhism, it is the Buddhaghosha brand of > Abhidharma Buddhism. > It is interesting that Buddha didn't seem to use that type of words, atleast not often. He used ATTA very often, and sometimes used mahatta word. > The self and no-self > The Puggalavadins took care not to use the word Atman > or soul as is understood in Vedanta, i.e. an immutable self > characterised by permanence, bliss and substance. >>> Here is where I probably have to disagree. Buddha has said many times about Atta, he said many times about indestructible Citta (which isn't part of 5 aggregates which are anatta) that goes to immortal element (Amata Dhatu). >> If Buddhism is to be a practical religion of value to mankind, it > must take into account and recognise the existence of persons or > individuals - otherwise Buddhism falls flat and collapses like a pack > of cards. When you deny a person, you have to deny the Buddha, his > Dhamma and the Sangha. That reduces Buddhism to a force. > > The Island - 19 Sep 00 > I'll say more. To deny an everlasting Citta (Soul) is to deny early Nikayas and Buddhism of Buddha. Unfortunately Modern "Buddhism" is very popular with people too smart for Christianity.... Lots of Metta, Alex a Nikaya-yanist #81763 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Jan 26, 2008 3:52 pm Subject: Re: My recent meditation experiences. .. metta bhavana .. dhammanusara Hi friend Alex and others, - I think now I have some idea about how you do the metta bhavana. I guess the important point is in the doing/practicing without asking too many questions, and keep on developing skills along the way through discerning. It is a trial-and-error approach ! >Alex: > I develop friendly feeling in my chest. > > I spread it towards myself, forgive myself for any past deeds and > wish myself well. Sometimes I imagine white hearts sending them (I > know, this isn't part of instructions. I should drop this ASAP) > > I spread it towards few Monks who I have good feelings for. > > Then I change instructions a bit. > > I spread (or try to) it towards entire earth, galaxy, universe, > multiverse. > Letting go (temporarily and for a very short while) of sensuality, > unwholesome mental states and physical seclusion (in my room and not in a bar or something). > T: The "friendly feeling" in your chest and the way you spread it toward yourself and others is similar to Ajaan Thanisaro's relaxation of the breaths, I think. The imagining/remembering of the happy time (sukha) through "verbalization and imagination" is volitional formations that are associated with sa~n~a of sukha-vedana, it seems. This samadhi nimitta is perhaps useful for inducing a calm mental state through lessening tension in the body and mind(?). The "letting go" exercise might be a trick for inducing passaddhi sambojjhanga? You have got interesting ideas and the courage to try them out, Alex. Thanks, Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > > Hi Tep and all, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > wrote: > > > > > > Hi Alex (Dieter and other friends), - > > > > Thank you very much for posting your jhana experience through metta-bhavana. I hope you may be interested in answering my following questions. Your answer will give me ideas how to practice it myself. > > #81764 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat Jan 26, 2008 5:06 pm Subject: Re: Hello im new member here. kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > > Hi Stephen > > > >You might find that some folks here will tell > > > you that if there is too much clinging to self involved in your > > > efforts, it will all be for naught. They have an interesting > point > > that > > > should be considered...but not when Mara is right in our face! > > > > Im not sure what you mean by this sentence can u give me more > > meaning. > > Sorry, it was quite cryptic, wasn't it. Hi Stephen (and Phil), Welcome to the group from me, another Australian. (I live north of the border in sunny Queensland). Phil has done a pretty good job of describing DSG's unique understanding of the Dhamma. I say "unique" because it is found only at DSG and in the Pali Tipitaka. :- ) It is also found anywhere else where the TRUE Dhamma is studied and discussed! :-) I don't know what you want from your Buddhist studies: you might just want a healthier lifestyle and relief from the stresses modern living. Whatever your reasons, however, it won't hurt you to learn about the "true" Dhamma. Phil wrote: -------- > DSG's long time members, who founded it many years ago, decades ago, when Dhamma discussion was still conducted on papyrus leaves, study under/along with a teacher/Dhamma friend who places a lot of emphasis on "detachment from the beginning" and they will often remind us/each other that if there is sakkaya ditthi (wrong view that there is a lasting, permanent self) lurking behind our desires to avoid doing wrong deeds, it will not help us in the long run, because it is only eradication of this wrong view that is really liberating. > -------- That's not a bad summary - coming from an infidel! (joke) I have to wonder, though, why would anyone, having understood the teaching that far, want to go back to their old, superstitious, ritualistic versions of the Dhamma? Some people still believe that by sitting in certain positions, or by reciting certain words, or by staring mesmerically into space (etc) they are practising what the Buddha taught. This is a tragic misunderstanding. --------------- Phil: > If we avoid wrong deeds by hiding from them or suppressing them in the name of being a better, more wholesome person, or out of fear, or so on, we will just be setting ourselves up for a rude shock when the lurking tendencies rise up and have their day. So they emphasize understanding the present moment above all, even if it is akusala (unwholesome, evil etc) it is better to understand it than it is to avoid it without any understanding. ---------------- This is still a pretty good explanation, but please don't get the idea these DSG people are in favour of unwholesome conduct. Most of them live quite faultlessly compared to me. That is one reason why I am reluctant to call myself one of them. Another reason is I am still new to their "no-control" understanding of the Dhamma. I've only been studying it for the past six or so years. ----------------- Ph: > The moment that conditioned the evil deed has fallen away, we should not be so concerned, something like that. (Please forgive the oversimplification or misinterpretation, students of Acharn Sujin.) ---------------- Not only has the moment that conditioned the evil cetana (deed) fallen away, but also the evil cetana itself has fallen away. However, it can still be known by samma-ditthi (right understanding). An evil dhamma, once it has arisen and fallen away (in its trillionth-of-a-second lifespan), is an excellent object for right understanding. In fact, any absolute reality (any conditioned dhamma) that presents itself now at one of the six doorways is an excellent - perfect - object for right understanding. Why wait for something else to come along? Remember, there is only the present moment. Don't waste it! -------------------------- Ph: > You will find that your assumption that all Buddhists should meditate will also be questioned for the above sort of reasons. -------------------------- Yes, and why not? Any idea of waiting for a desirable state of mind to come along is a wrong idea. There is only the present moment! -------------------------------- Ph: > So these friends here will really come at the Dhamma from a much different angle from where you will find anywhere else on the internet or in the Buddhist section of the bookstore. I was strongly influenced by this approach for a couple of years, and still see value in it - I think it might possibly represent a very deep understanding of what Dhamma is really about (emphasis on might possibly) - but when it comes to this sort of issue, when there is dangerous temptation right at hand, there is not time for this sort of subtle understanding. Just say no, just stop, don't do it - and then afterwards there will be opportunity to reflect on the forces that compel one to do it. --------------------------------- Sounds easy, doesn't it? Makes me wonder why there is so much evil in the world if all we have to do is say, "No, stop, don't do it!" Sometimes "no, stop, don't do it" seems to work and sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes it seems to have the opposite effect! Why is that? Isn't it because everything ultimately depends on conditions? There are conditions for what happens and there are conditions for what doesn't happen. Even the thought "No, stop, don't do it" is created by conditioned dhammas - not by sentient beings ("us"). ----------------------- Ph: > For a couple of years I got too relaxed about following the precepts. I would say things like "the precepts are a description of the behaviour of a wise person of understanding rather than a prescription of rules to follow." ----------------------- This reminds me of when I gave up smoking, back in 1976. After twelve years of addiction to cigarettes I got interested in alternative lifestyles and Buddhism etc., and, suddenly smoking didn't appeal to me any more. It never has since. Before that there had been a dozen or more determined, but unsuccessful, "no, stop, don't do it" campaigns. --------------------------------- Ph: > I think a lot of us come to Dhamma with a background/environment in the Judeo-Christian mold so we resent having commandments to follow. It doesn't seem wise or deep just to make vows not to do certain things. But that's what we have to do. I learned the hard way when I was wishy-washying around this way with the precepts. Now I vow to follow them, and when I fail I fail in that moment to follow the Buddha's teaching, plain and simple. There is no need to feel remorse about this because the accumulated tendency to certain kinds of behaviour is so very strong. We will break the precepts again and again and again. But for me, no more talk of "breaking the precepts with understanding is more important than following them with understanding"or anything like that. (nobody said that, I was just imagining what I might have said a couple of years ago) ----------------- Phil's rhetoric has gone astray. As he knows, you can't break the precepts with right understanding. Right understanding is a wholesome (kusala) dhamma whereas the dhammas that break precepts are unwholesome. The two types cannot arise together in the same moment of consciousness. It is regrettable that kusala citta happens, but once it has happened - and it has itself become an object of consciousness - it should be known for what it is. It should not become yet another object of ignorance and wrong view. BTW, Stephen, I should add how to do this. I am not saying we can implement some sort of ritualistic practice in order to rightly know the present object of consciousness. Such practices are impossible because citta (any moment of consciousness) comes and goes in a trillionth of a second. I am saying that only the Buddha's Middle Way can know dhammas directly as they are. And the Middle Way is conditioned by our past listening, considering and discussing (etc) of the true Dhamma. Ken H #81765 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Jan 26, 2008 5:26 pm Subject: Outline of Purification of View V.7 lbidd2 Hi all, The next section is concerned with anatta. 24. ...So, as one who opens a box with a knife, as one who splits a twin palmyra bulb in two, he defines all states of the three planes, the 18 elements, 12 bases, 5 aggregates, in the double way as 'mentality-materiality', and he concludes that over and above mere mentality-materiality there is nothing else that is a being or a person or a deity or a Brahma. Larry: This is confirmed by numerous suttas. For example: As with the assembly of parts The word "chariot" is countenanced, So, when the aggregates are present, "A being" is said in common usage' (S.i,135). 28. So in many hundred suttas it is only mentality-materiality that is illustrated, not a being, not a person. Therefore, just as when the component parts such as axles, wheels, frame poles, etc., are arranged in a certain way, there comes to be the mere term of common usage 'chariot', yet in the ultimate sense when each part is examined there is no chariot, ... so too, when there are the 5 aggregates of clinging, there comes to be the mere term of common usage 'a being', 'a person', yet in the ultimate sense, when each component is examined, there is no being as a basis for the assumption 'I am' or 'I'; in the ultimate sense there is only mentality-materiality. The vision of one who sees in this way is called correct vision. 29. But when a man rejects this correct vision and assumes that a being exists, he has to conclude either that it comes to be annihilated or that it does not. If he concludes that it does not come to be annihilated, he falls into the eternity [view]. If he concludes that it does come to be annihilated, he falls into the annihilation [view]. Why? Because [the assumption] precludes any gradual change like that of milk into curd. So he either holds back, concluding that the assumed being is eternal, or he overreaches, concluding that it comes to be annihilated. 30. Hence the Blessed One said: 'There are two kinds of view, bhikkhus, and when deities and human beings are obsessed by them, some hold back and some overreach; only those with eyes see. And how do some hold back? Deities and human beings love becoming, delight in becoming, rejoice in becoming. When Dhamma is taught to them for the ceasing of becoming, their minds do not enter into it, become settled, steady and resolute. Thus it is that some hold back.And how do some overreach? Some are ashamed, humiliated and disgusted by that same becoming, they are concerned with non-becoming in this way: "Sirs, when with the breakup of the body this self is cut off, annihilated, does not become any more after death, that is peaceful, that is sublime, that is true". Thus it is that some overreach. And how do those with eyes see? Here a bhikkhu sees what is become as become. Having seen what is become as become, he has entered upon the way to dispassion for it, to the fading away of greed for it, to its cessation. This is how one with eyes sees' (Iti.43; Ps.i,159). Larry: To sum up this section: what is designated by a concept, for example 'person', 'chariot' etc., is ultimately only nama and rupa in a process of becoming. To think there is an ultimate person is due to clinging to becoming or annihilation. Perception of only nama and rupa is the remedy for that clinging. Larry #81766 From: "crosby_s" Date: Sat Jan 26, 2008 5:36 pm Subject: Re: Hello im new member here. crosby_s Hi phil and KenH Thankyou for all you explanations they have helped me understand the Dhamma a little more and what my focus should be on.I truly appreciate all your help. With Metta, Steven. #81767 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Jan 26, 2008 6:20 pm Subject: Re: My recent meditation experiences. Thinking regarding slowing down of mind. scottduncan2 Dear Alex, Regarding: A: "For my formal "meditations" I generally practice Metta. It works well for making me go deep, quick and bliss out almost instanteneously..." Scott: Why do you think that this is important for me to know about? This is a serious question, Alex. You are posting a record of this experience. Can you please discuss in what way this is important? It seems to merely be some sort of ecstatic experience with no apparent relevance to Dhamma. Since you are posting it, might you be able to explain it? Thanks for your consideration. Sincerely, Scott. #81768 From: "shennieca" Date: Sat Jan 26, 2008 6:47 pm Subject: Re: Are thoughts vipaka? shennieca Hi Phil, all, Thanks for asking this question. Sometimes I think about it too. Phil: Are thoughts vipaka? I find it easy to accept that seeing, hearing etc are vipaka, but mental objects feel more like something the mind produces as a result of responding to vipaka rather than vipaka itself. Elaine: I haven't come across any Sutta that mentions thoughts as vipaka. Please don't quote me, but imo thoughts are vipaka. They are the results of perceptions and feelings. Perceptions and Feelings are influenced by past kamma. So, thoughts become the effects/vipaka of past kamma too, I believe. In the Culavedalla Sutta, it says that thoughts are Sankharas (fabrications), categorized under Verbal-Fabrications. There are 3 types of Fabrications: 1. Mental Fabrications- Perceptions & feelings are mental fabrication, these are things tied up with the mind, that's why perceptions & feelings are mental fabrications. 2. Verbal Fabrications- Directed thoughts & Evaluation are verbal fabrications because having first directed one's thoughts and made an evaluation, one breaks out into speech. 3. Bodily Fabrications- In-&-out breaths are bodily fabrications because these are things tied up with the body. (Culavedalla Sutta Mn 44). I think, thoughts are also called `inner dialogue'. We form sentences in our mind eventhough we don't verbalize it. When we evaluate a situation either to fight or to run, it is thinking; solving a maths problem also requires thinking. Thinking is not all bad. :-)) The reason I think, thought is a vipaka is because Everything that we do, say or think, has a cause and effect. In science, cause and effect happens all the time. The effect from a previous cause will become the cause of another effect. It is a chain-reaction. Intention is kamma. Is intention categorized under `thoughts'? I don't know. If it is, then thoughts are kamma and also the vipaka, eh? Even though `thought' is an effect, it does Not mean that we are not responsible for it. We have to put in effort to produce wholesome thoughts and remove unwholesome ones. We cannot believe things like, `thoughts come and go by itself, we cannot control it, therefore we are not responsible for it'. This kind of thinking is Wrong-view/ Wrong understanding. I agree, thoughts arise on its own accord, but when we realize that it is bad, we have to quickly get rid of it. We should not dwell on it. It is a difficult thing to do, but we can try. There are a few ways to approach `thinking', we can use `replacement thinking' method. Instead of thinking unwholesome thoughts, try to think of wholesome ones. Or, we can 'watch' these thoughts in a `detached-mode'. And we can `see' how these thoughts arise and fall away (this requires concentration and mindfulness). I think there is a difference between: 1. Thinking about being happy (a thought) 2. Feeling happy 3. Knowing the feeling of happiness and thoughts of happiness If we can develop the `knowing', then I think we will realize what `reality' is and become wise, but at the present moment, it is impossible for me to stop thinking and I don't know how to watch thinking. I always get involved in the thinking. How about you? :-)) Warmest regards, Elaine P/S: I hope I didn't go off-topic at the last bit. :-)) #81769 From: "pannabahulo" Date: Sat Jan 26, 2008 7:15 pm Subject: Re: Puggalavada and Theravada Buddhist teachings re: abhidhamma pannabahulo Dear Howard, I am in 100% agreement with all you have said. I posted it merely for the historical data relating to the various splits and sects that arose in the early times following the Lord Buddha's parinibbana and that then a central issue is the origin of the abhidhamma.This contention still continues today. All the rest about astral bodies etc is pure hogwash.But the dhammakaya sects still hold to this absurd view which is certainly NOT the teaching of the Buddha. With meta and blessings Pannabahulo #81770 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jan 26, 2008 2:30 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Puggalavada and Theravada Buddhist teachings re: abhidhamma upasaka_howard Dear Bhante - Thank you for your kind reply, Sir. :-) With metta, Howard #81771 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Sat Jan 26, 2008 8:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Are thoughts vipaka? dcwijeratna Hello Elaine, I have been following your discussion on thinking and vipaaka with interest. I have some difficulties in following the discussion. I will put them down below in the form of some quesions. 1. What is meaning is ascribed to thinking? Is it possible to find a sutta definition--not commentary--of thinking. 2. What exactly is vipaaka? The literal meaning, as far as I am aware, is ripening. 3. How kamma and vipaaka are related? Really the mechanism. I think if we can find meaningful answers to the above questions, we most probably can find a solution. D. G. D. C. Wijeratna #81772 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Jan 26, 2008 10:03 pm Subject: Re: Puggalavada and Theravada Buddhist teachings re: abhidhamma buddhatrue Ven. Pannabahulo, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "pannabahulo" wrote: > > Dear Howard, > > I am in 100% agreement with all you have said. I posted it merely for > the historical data relating to the various splits and sects that arose > in the early times following the Lord Buddha's parinibbana and that > then a central issue is the origin of the abhidhamma.This contention > still continues today. > All the rest about astral bodies etc is pure hogwash.But the dhammakaya > sects still hold to this absurd view which is certainly NOT the > teaching of the Buddha. You know, your really should just make your opinions and viewpoints CLEAR from the beginning. These tricky posts of yours (This one and the KS Parody) are not becoming for a monk. Secondly, I don't know much about "astral bodies" but I do know that the suttas are full of examples of the Buddha and others moving locations as fast as "one would extend an arm" and transporting to deva realms. As far as I know, the Abhidhamma doesn't contain one single explanation for psychic phenomenon. Don't dismiss off-hand what you don't understand due to not experiencing it yourself. > With meta and blessings > > Pannabahulo > Metta, James #81773 From: "shennieca" Date: Sat Jan 26, 2008 11:08 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Are thoughts vipaka? shennieca Hi DC, (all), Thanks for participating in this discussion. :-)) ----------- DC: 1. What is meaning is ascribed to thinking? Is it possible to find a sutta definition--not commentary--of thinking. Elaine: I don't know any Sutta that gives the definition of thinking. But I found maps on how thinking and papanca arises. ----------- In MN 18, the map is like this: Contact > Feeling > Perception > Thinking > Perceptions & Categories of Papañca. Dependent on eye & forms, eye-consciousness arises (similarly with the rest of the six senses). The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition, there is feeling. Starting with feeling, the notion of an 'agent', in this case, the feeler acting on 'objects' is introduced. What one feels, one perceives (labels in the mind). What one perceives, one 'thinks' about. What one 'thinks' about, one 'papañcizes'. Through the process of papañca, the agent then becomes a victim of his/her own patterns of thinking. (MN 18) -------------- There is another map about thinking. In DN 21, the map reads like this: Perceptions & Categories of Papañca > Thinking > Desire > Dear-&-not- dear > Envy & Stinginess > Rivalry & Hostility. (DN 21) --------------- In Sn 4.11, the map is less linear and can be diagrammed like this: Perception > Categories of Papañca. Perception > Name & Form > Contact > Appealing & Unappealing > Desire > Dear-&-not-dear > Stinginess/Divisiveness/Quarrels/Disputes. (Sn 4.11) These maps are taken from: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.018.than.html Elaine: In Sn 4.11, there is no thinking involved but disputes and quarrels are formed (??). Why? How? I don't understand ~. ----------------------- DC: 2. What exactly is vipaaka? The literal meaning, as far as I am aware, is ripening. Elaine: I think the translation of vipaka is 'effect'. Kamma and vipaka is translated as 'cause and effect'. So, vipaka should have the same meaning as 'effect' or 'results', right? Vipaka is the ripening of the fruits of kamma? Can you please explain more? The way we look (rupa), pleasant or unpleasant is the result/fruit of past kamma, right? I guess 'rupa' is a type of vipaka. How about intelligence or wealth that we have accumulated in this life, are they vipaka too? I think it is also a vipaka. Sometimes 'good conditions' or 'bad conditions' will ripen and we will feel the effects of it. Is this ripening called Vipaka? Something off-topic: I really hate to think of Vipaka as 'Destiny'. Are we destined to be intelligent or dumb? rich or poor? For example, when the Buddha was born, his destiny was predicted. He would either become a Universal Monarch or a Buddha. But there is no either or, one of the fortune-tellers said he would definitely become a Buddha. So, 'destiny' is Vipaka too, isn't it? I think so. ------------- DC: 3. How kamma and vipaaka are related? Really the mechanism. Elaine: I don't know the mechanism. I think only the Buddha knows the mechanism. What's important is knowing the formula, 'we reap what we sow'. -------- Warmest regards, Elaine #81774 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Jan 26, 2008 11:10 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Lessons in Detachment, Ch 5, no 2. sarahprocter... Dear Nina & Alex, --- Alex wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom > wrote: > > > -------- > > N: Also on MP3 I heard something about this I did not get. Even > the > > sotapanna can have (subtle silabbataparamasa) when wanting to have > > more sati. But is this not rather lobha without wrong view? > > I read in the texts that silabbataparamasa is a form of wrong > view, > > and also that all wrong view is eradicated by the sotapanna. > > Nina. .... >A: A sotapanna has only eradicated 3 out of 10 fetters: > > 1) belief in one's body as a self (Pali: > sakkāya-diṭṭhi) > 2) doubt or uncertainty, especially about the teachings > (vicikicchā) > 3) attachment to rites and rituals (sīlabbata-parāmāso) ... S: Nina, as Alex says a sotapanna cannot have even the most subtle of silabbataparamasa, such as a subtle trying to have more sati. Perhaps you misheard or there was an error. Was this from the recent India discussion? If you tell me where it was, I can listen. Or you can transcribe the part and I can raise it with KS. Yes, all wrong view is eradicated by the sotapanna and if wrong view has been eradicated, there is no silabbataparamasa. However, (before one is a sotapanna), when satipatthana has been developed, there can can be subtle kinds of silabbataparamasa in a day without the arising of wrong view, taking realities for people and things. This makes sense to me. Examples of silabbataparamasa might be reading or listening to tapes to have awareness, specially reflecting on death to have calm and so on. No understanding at such moments of conditioned realities, but not any wrong view of realities. A good point to discuss further. .... >A: The 7 fetters to be eradicated are: > > A sotapanna STILL has (but not strong enough for 5 heineous crimes): > > sensual desire (kāmacchando) > ill will (vyāpādo or byāpādo) > lust for material existence, lust for material rebirth > (rūparāgo)[10] > lust for immaterial existence (arūparāgo) > pride in self, conceit, arrogance (māno) > restlessness, distraction (uddhaccaŋ) > ignorance (avijjā) > > > A sotapana cannot: > Willfully shed someone's blood (I read it somewhere in AN, don't > remember if it for a sotapanna or higher) ... S: A sotapanna will never break the precepts, including killing. .... >A: Take any of the 5 khandas for self > Take any of the 5 khandas as permanent or happiness. > Go to non-buddhist teacher. ... S: this is correct. This is why also, as I said to you before, some of Nanavira's comments which you quoted before (suggesting a sotapanna may break the precepts still), is incorrect. Metta, Sarah ====== #81775 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Jan 26, 2008 11:27 pm Subject: Vis. CH XVIII, 23 sarahprocter... Dear Nina & Larry, You sent me this off-list, but I hope you don't mind if I respond here as I think it's a very good Dhamma point to discuss further (as well as raise in Bkk if I have the chance/or you have the chance in April). >Nina: Dear Sarah, Perhaps there is an opportunity to take this up when Kh S. speaks about stages of insight. Perhaps this is not too technical, it concerns practice. It seems like selecting but perhaps one can misread this passage. It is someone who first developed samatha, about the body parts. Or what do you think about it? Nina. ------- quoted by Larry: VI. XVIII23. Now it is only when he has become quite sure about discerning > materiality in this way that immaterial states become quite evident to > him in the three aspects. Therefore he should only undertake the > task of > discerning the immaterial states after he has completed that, not > otherwise. If he leaves off discerning materiality when, say, one > or two > material states have become evident in order to begin discerning the > immaterial, then he falls from his meditation subject like the > mountain > cow already described under the Development of the Earth Kasina. DeleteReplyForwardSpamMove... .... S: Firstly, I think whatever points we raise, however abstruse or technical they may seem to others, they all point to the development of satipatthana, the practice. KS's answers always come back to this as you stress again and again. Secondly, I think when we read these quotes, we have to keep in mind that all the teachings are about anatta, about conditioned dhammas which can never be selected by a self. If there's any idea of selection and choosing of an object, we misunderstand the path of satipatthana. As you suggest, this may be referring to someone who has developed samatha and it is only after the jhana cittas have fallen away that the various namas and rupas may appear as they are with insight. Like in the Satipatthana Sutta, I think there are descriptions of different accumulations including those who had developed samatha of anapanasati, foulness of the body, 4 elements and so on. Whatever such accumulations, any dhamma appearing has to be seen with right understanding and detachment, regardless of any special experiences. Do you or others have further thoughts? Metta, Sarah ======= #81776 From: "shennieca" Date: Sat Jan 26, 2008 11:32 pm Subject: Re: Puggalavada and Theravada Buddhist teachings re: abhidhamma shennieca Hi James, Imo, the e-mails that Bhante wrote is done in a very polite way. Sometimes being 'clear' can sound very harsh, especially in an e-m setting like this with very few emoticons. I don't think Bhante is writing tricky posts though. His approach is refined. :-)) --- Sometimes your emails sound very aggressive but I know you have good intentions. :-)) It's the intention that's important, right? :-)) With mettaa & respect, Elaine P/S: I think we have to take care of our speech when we speak/write to a member of the Sangha. ;-)) It's like showing respect towards our Buddha, I think ~ #81777 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jan 26, 2008 11:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vis. CH XVIII, 23 nilovg Dear Sarah, Op 27-jan-2008, om 8:27 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > Like in the > Satipatthana Sutta, I think there are descriptions of different > accumulations including those who had developed samatha of > anapanasati, > foulness of the body, 4 elements and so on. Whatever such > accumulations, > any dhamma appearing has to be seen with right understanding and > detachment, regardless of any special experiences. ------- N: Well said. We have to keep this in mind all the time. Nina. #81778 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jan 26, 2008 11:40 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Lessons in Detachment, Ch 5, no 2. nilovg Dear Sarah, Op 27-jan-2008, om 8:10 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > S: Nina, as Alex says a sotapanna cannot have even the most subtle of > silabbataparamasa, such as a subtle trying to have more sati. > Perhaps you > misheard or there was an error. Was this from the recent India > discussion? > If you tell me where it was, I can listen. Or you can transcribe > the part > and I can raise it with KS. ------ N: I heard it on Aug. 17 , 007, tape b. Just after the sankhaarupekkha of the Bodhisatta that is not possible. Nina. #81779 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat Jan 26, 2008 11:59 pm Subject: Re: Full bodied determinism? .. baalo or pandita? .. kenhowardau Hi Tep, Thanks for your reply. There is one thing that bothers me: do you seriously think someone is in danger of doing something stupid just because he/she has a beginner's understanding of anatta? ---------------- <. . .> T: > On the other hand, by adhering strictly without matured wisdom (of the ariyans) that there are no persons, no animals, no killing & no killers in the real world -- that can be dangerous. ----------------- I don't know why you and some others here take this tack. You seem to be putting unnecessary obstacles in the way of right understanding. ------------------------- T: > Try walking alone in the Central Park in Manhattan, USA, at night and you'll find out if there are no thieves, no robbers, no killers but only namas and rupas are present. ------------------------- The theoretical knowledge 'there are only dhammas' does not require the wisdom of the ariyans. All that is requred is for us to hear the Dhamma with ordinary commonsense. In a similar way, a schoolchild after his first physics lesson knows in theory that the material world is just tiny, soulless subatomic particles - each surrounded by comparatively vast empty spaces. But schoolchildren can still cross a road safely. :-) Ken H #81780 From: "pannabahulo" Date: Sun Jan 27, 2008 12:12 am Subject: Re: James' posting about 'monk's unbecoming behaviour' pannabahulo Dear James, I am extremely confused as to what your viewpoint is. At 5.26 am you wrote a reply to me stating: "I find this to be a very interesting article. It doesn't hide it's attempt to present an opinion, but that's okay in my book. I am very interested in what the Puggalavada actually believed. Just because someone rejects the Abhidhamma, that doesn't mean they believe in a self. It is only those with a dogmatic adherence to the Abhidhamma who see anything else as heresy" (James) As I said in my introduction/ preface to my original letter: "In the Theravada tradition - and within the sangha iteslf - there is a wide split between those who accept the Abhidhamma Pitika as the teachings of the Buddha,and those who do not. Would anyone like to make some comment on the following article? I would be very interested to read them".(Pannabahulo) I ask you James, what is so unbecoming for a monk who - has doubts about the origins of the Abhidhamma Pitika - and submits an article relating the history of the development and/or decline of Buddhist thinking with specific reference to this abhidhamma viewpoint.? Is there some kind of vinaya rule and/or protocol about a monk discussing Dhamma? No, in fact that is precisely what I am doing and it is the only subject of discussion the Buddha allowed monks to partake in. Then you submit my reply to Howard where I say: > > I am in 100% agreement with all you have said. I posted it merely for the historical data relating to the various splits and sects that arose in the early times following the Lord Buddha's parinibbana and that then a central issue is the origin of the abhidhamma.This contention still continues today. All the rest about astral bodies etc is pure hogwash.But the dhammakaya sects still hold to this absurd view which is certainly NOT the teaching of the Buddha".(Pannabahulo) Then, at 2.32pm your opinion is then: "You know, your really should just make your opinions and viewpoints CLEAR from the beginning. These tricky posts of yours (This one and the KS Parody) are not becoming for a monk". I have already clearly expressed why I have said what I said and have reposted these comments for you to see CLEARLY. But the holding of viewpoints - and attachment to them - is not at all my purpose in making these postings. My motivating drive is my wish to LEARN. I asked for feeback in the article I submitted precisely because I am in doubt about the origin of the Abhidhamma Pitika. I asked for feedback so as to hear other peoples viewpoints. As for my parody letter - which was not a parody of Ajan Sujin - but merely of the views I hear expressed by other students.I took what I was picking up and took it to its logical conclusions. As a result of that, I have learned an awful lot.Isn't that the whole purpose of the study and practice of Dhamma?? As to all this astral body talk it does not fit with the Lord Buddha's teachings. The Buddha and some of his disciples developed the powers to be able to move bout without their physical bodies; they used mano maya kaya or 'mind made bodies.' Their purpose in doing this was to help people - not to go haunting their friend's bedrooms frightening the life out of them. But the Buddha strongly discouraged the use/ abuse of such powers. He likened it to a woman displaying her sexual organs for money. We all have different ways of learning James. And learning Dhamma is certainly not 'unbecoming for a monk.' With metta and blessings, Pannabahulo #81781 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jan 27, 2008 12:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Puggalavada and Theravada Buddhist teachings re: abhidhamma sarahprocter... Dear Ven Pannabahulo, (Howard & all), --- pannabahulo wrote: > Dear Dhamma friends, > I did say I would not post again until after the Bangkok seminars > next month. But I have just come across the article copied and pasted > below. > In the Theravada tradition - and within the sangha iteslf - there is > a wide split between those who accept the Abhidhamma Pitika as the > teachings of the Buddha,and those who do not. .... S: The more we understand about dhammas in daily life, the practice of the teachings, the less doubt and misunderstanding there is about the Abhidhamma Pitaka, as I see it. Then there is no need to have such discussion/controversy. In the article, a reference was made to the Atthasalini and to bhikkhus who didn't accept the Abhidhamma. Yes, there is plenty of reference to 'heretics' there which the author might like to consider further:-) For example, in the Atthasalini itself it says in the introductory discourse (PTS transl): "And tradition has it that those bhikkhus only who know Abhidhamma are true preachers of the Dhamma; the rest, though they speak on the Dhamma, are not preachers thereof. And why? They, in speaking on the Dhamma, confuse the different kinds of Kamma and of its results, the distinction between mind and matter, and the different kinds of states. The students of Abhidhamma do not thus get confused; hence a bhikkhu who knows Abhidhamma, whether he preaches the Dhamma or not, will be able to answer questions whenever asked. He alone, therefore, is a true preacher of the Dhamma. To this the Teacher referred when he approving said, 'Moggalana has well replied to questions.' "He who prohibits (the teaching of) Abhidhamma gives a blow to the Wheel of the Conqueror, denies omniscience, subverts the Teacher's knowledge full of confidence, deceives the audience, obstructs the path of the Ariyas, manifests himself as advocating one of the eighteen causes of dissension in the Order, is capable of doing acts for which the doer is liable to be excommunicated, or admonished, or scorned (by the Order), and should be dismissed after the particular act of excommunication, admonition, or scorn, and reduced to living on scraps of foold." ***** S: You very kindly sent me an off-list apology for a 'battle of words' and mentioned that you have a 'forceful' and 'direct' way of 'dispute'. I'd like to assure you (and everyone here) that I have no difficulty at all in discussing the Dhamma with friends who have direct and forceful ways of communication. In fact I welcome it! As long as it's a discussion of Dhamma and dhammas, rather than of personal issues, then it's useful, no matter the individual styles. I'd also much rather have such discussion on DSG, where others can join in and this is why I usually reply to any good points of Dhamma (sent to me off-list) here. You also mentioned that you had difficulty understanding why I was 'so strongly against meditation'. I'd like to just stress again, as I have in several messages, that I have nothing at all against 'meditation' per se, but we have to clarify and define what we mean by the term. The Buddha referred two kinds - samatha and vipassana bhavana. I am very interested in such 'meditation' as taught by the Buddha. I know it takes you a long time to type (as it does many people here), so please just send brief questions or comments when you have time. We appreciate your contributions a lot. I'm glad you will also be joining all the discussions in Bangkok when we visit soon as well. Metta, Sarah ======== #81782 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jan 27, 2008 12:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Hello im new member here. sarahprocter... Hi Suan (Steven & all), --- abhidhammika wrote: > Theravada is a good choice you made. It represents the oldest > original teachings of Gotama the Buddha as preserved in Pali > Tipitaka. It is rich in intellectual verbalisations of realities as > the Buddha discovered. ... Sarah: We agree on this and it's kind of you to respond. .... >Suan: And, Theravada is equally rich in methods for transformation of >our behavior, our mind, and our views. > > After familiarizing yourself with teachings from Dhammapada, you can > take a direct plunge in Vipassana by following the instructions in > the Practical Vipassana book by the late Mahasi Sayadaw, who was one > of the most learned scholar monks of Burma and whose teachings > conform to Theravada original teachings. .... S: But do they? Is it really a 'Practical Vipassana book'? I'm very sorry to say this, but if I had to point to one or two so-called Theravada books which misled me most in my early days of keen interest in the Buddha's teachings, this would certainly be one of them. In an earlier message, I wrote: >" ...let's look at the beginning of the Mahasi Sayadaw text as it's been quoted a few times recently: > 1. Analytical Knowledge of Body and Mind > Endowed with purification of mind and continuing the practice of > noticing, the meditator now comes to know body-and-mind analytically > as follows: "The rising (upward movement) of the abdomen is one > process; the falling (downward movement) is another; sitting is > another; touching is another," etc. <...> I don't think you'll find anything like this in any of the Tipitaka or ancient commentaries. First of all, nama-rupa pariccheda-~nana is not about analytical (i.e theoretical) knowledge. It's not about noticing, it's not about the abdomen.... It's about the clear and distinct understanding of namas and rupas appearing now. As I recall, Mahasi Sayadaw's technique and focus-style meditation was extremely controversial in Burma a few decades ago.:< .... S: Of course, I'll be glad to read any of your references in support of Mahasi's comments which I've questioned here. If there is no understanding now of namas, such as seeing or hearing, or of rupas such as visible object or sound, how can there be any clear understanding of the distinction, of dhammas as anatta? .... >Suan: Formal meditation in the sense of formal development of each > component of the Noble Eightfold Path is the Fourth Noble Truth from > the Four Noble Truths discovered, and declared in his very First > Discourse, by Gotama the Buddha. So it is very delicious, and you > can't go wrong by embarking on the Noble Practice Path > (Ariyamaggapa.tipadaa). ... Sarah: What does 'formal development of each comonent...' mean? Who does the embarking, Suan? Where do we read about this *formal* development in the texts? Also, in another message you referred to listening to bhikkhus as opposed to lay-people. How do you understand these lines which Alex quoted recently in #81653: "367. He who has no attachment whatsoever for the mind and body, who does not grieve for what he has not — he is truly called a monk. 396. I do not call him a holy man because of his lineage or high-born mother. If he is full of impeding attachments, he is just a supercilious man. But who is free from impediments and clinging — him do I call a holy man." Sarah: Isn't the point that it is the understanding and thereby detachment towards namas and rupas (mind and body) appearing now that leads to the deepest meaning of 'holy' or 'Sangha'? Thanks again for all your comments which I always like to consider, Suan:-)) Metta, Sarah ====== #81783 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 27, 2008 12:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddha's Instructions For A Long-term Formal Develoment In Satipatthaana Suttam nilovg Dear Suan, Thank you for answering my post. Op 26-jan-2008, om 9:30 heeft abhidhammika het volgende geschreven: > But, the following four statements instruct us to prepare and > practice for future stages. > > `Sabbakaayapa.tisamvedii assasissaamii'ti > sikkhati, `sabbakaayapa.tisamvedii passasissaamii'ti sikkhati, > > `Passambhayam kaayasankhaaram assasissaamii'ti > sikkhati, `passambhayam kaayasankhaaram passasissaamii'ti sikkhati. > > Please check the verb forms `assasissaami' and passasissaami', which > are in the future tense. And, please also note the verb `sikkhati', > to practice. > > Whenever we see the Pali verb `sikkhati' in such situations, the > Buddha was instructing us to undertake a long-term formal > development in order to achieve in future something we are unable to > do now. -------- N: It is interesting that the future tense is used here. The yogavacara is developing samatha and vipassana as you know. For samatha there is a cerain procedure to be followed, so it is understandable that he thinks of what he shall do. Now I ask a question and I am sure you know the right answer, but I ask this here, because not everyone will be certain as to the answer. This thinking about the future is done by a citta and the point is: even when thinking of the future, what is the present citta like that is thinking? Is it akusala citta with a subtle desire, some clinging to an idea of self who is doing it all? Or is it kusala citta with right understanding? This should be realized, otherwise there is no bhavana as you know. Thus, we cannot escape the present moment. Training, sikkhati is used many times in the suttas. Indeed, it is long term. The development of satipatthaana is ciira kala bhaavanaa. Nina. #81784 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jan 27, 2008 12:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Lessons in Detachment, Ch 5, no 2. sarahprocter... Dear Scott, --- Scott Duncan wrote: > S: "I just remembered K.Sujin gave the example of how there may be a > subtle trying to be aware now because of the deep-rooted tendency. > It's not right, because the viriya is not balanced - there's an > over-striving as a result of silabbataparamasa, only eradicated by the > sotapanna. However, as I wrote yesterday, not wrong view involved." > > Scott: This is a very good point. In particular I am struck by the > importance of balance in the constellation of mental factors. .. Sarah: Yes, and such a balance can only be through the development of right understanding, not a self trying to have more confidence or wisdom, for example. .... >The > level of discourse wherein the question of the existence of a person, > or of the relevance of anatta is shifted rather obliquely here. ... Sarah: ?? .... > > When it is only a question of the presence of and balance of mental > factors (which I believe it is), then it is clear why certain outcomes > arise or don't arise. The arguments for deliberate practise don't > revolve around someone who practises, nor do they revolve around > someone who doesn't practise. > > They revolve only around the dhammas which are in play. The > development of kusala dhammas is only a function of the presence and > balance, and the interactions and conditional relations, of these > particular dhammas. > > What do you think? ... Sarah: Got it and yes....only ever dhammas in play, no matter what illusions there may be to the contrary. Always love discussing such dhammas with you, Scott:). Thanks also for coming in to help with the Pali Suan quoted.....I enjoy the way you approach and share your Pali studies with us in a very practical way. Metta, Sarah ========= #81785 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 27, 2008 1:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Are thoughts vipaka? nilovg Hi Howard, Phil, Elaine, DC, Op 26-jan-2008, om 18:24 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > It seems to me that thinking is result of cetana. Does that not > make it > vipaka? The cetana that is condition for thinking is kamma, and the > thinking > must be kamma vipaka. What else, if not that? The cetana will be > wholesome, > unwholesome, or neutral, and the thinking will correspondingly be > that - > derivatively....(snipped) > > Though the conditioning cetana is not vipaka, it sure seems to me that > the resultant thinking (or the aggregation of mind states that make > up the > thinking) is. How could it not be? ------- N: What we call thinking are actually cittas accompanied by cetasikas, arising in mind-door processes and these are kusala cittas or akusala cittas, not vipaakacittas. Vipaakacittas are seeing, hearing and the other sense-cognitions that experience visible object, sound, etc. which may be desirable or undesirable. These cittas are the results of kusala kamma or akusala kamma. The javanacittas arising in a process are either kusala cittas or akusala cittas (in the case of non-arahats). Cetana, volition, is a universal accompanying each citta: kusala citta, akusala citta, vipaakacitta and kiriyacitta. Cetana coordinates the work of the accompanying dhammas and when it arises with kusala citta or akusala citta it has a double task: apart from coordinating it 'wills' kusala or akusala. Thinking is accompanied by cetana and it wills kusala or akusala. Thinking is not always of the intensity of a good or evil deed that could produce a result later on in the form of a desirable or undesirable sense impression. Result or vipaaka has a definite meaning, it is not an effect as it is used in conventional language. Effect can have a very wide meaning, anything that is a condition for something else. An example: bodyconsciousness experiences an undesirable object (such as heat) through the bodydoor and it is accompanied by painful feeling. This is the result of akusala kamma in the past. Very soon after this citta has fallen away javanacittas arise which may be akusala cittas with aversion. Then the same object is experienced through the mind-door and again the javanacittas are accompanied by aversion. Then other mind-door processes of cittas may arise which think with aversion about the source of the pain and these cittas are thus akusala cittas. They may not have the intention of akusala kamma, or, akusala cittas with anger arise that may motivate hitting someone else, and then akusala kamma is committed that can have as result later on akusala vipaka in the form of an unpleasant sense- cognition. Howard, the way you use kamma and result is different from my explanation above. Nina. #81786 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jan 27, 2008 1:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Full bodied determinism? ... Atta & Anatta ... sarahprocter... Hi Tep, Alex & PHIL!! Tep, I'm not sure if your long message #81497 was intended as one of your 'punishments' (lol!!), but I thought it contained a lot of good and relevant material with regards the point Alex was on about with regard to the use of 'atta' in the texts: --- Tep Sastri wrote: > Let's start with atta that means self. The literal meaning of 'an' > is 'not', so 'an' + 'atta' simply means 'not self' or 'non-self'. Now > if you prefer 'soul' or 'atman' over 'self', a few other meanings > of 'atta' will be lost. For > example, 'attabhaava', 'attaanuvaada', 'attakilamathaanuyoga', 'attadi > ipa', 'attapa.tilabha' and 'attamano' cannot be explained by 'soul'. ... S: Even 'self' is rather narrow in my view. Something like 'substance' might be more accurate. For example, as we read the mail, visible object appears. It is anatta, without any 'substance' in the sense of letters, forms or shapes. Just an element. .... > > Are you familiar with Ñanamoli Thera's "Anattaa According to the > Theravaada" ? > > As principal Tipi.taka (and Commentary) uses of the very commonly > employed attaa and atta the following five types of examples may be > cited : > > as "one-self" in the more or less colloquial sense: e.g., attaa hi > atatno naatho (Dh. XII, 4/v. 160), attanaa va kata"m paapa"m (Dh. > XII, 5/v. 161), attaanu"m na dade poso (S. I, 78/vol. i, 44), > aha"m... parisuddhakaayakammantata"m attani samanupassamaano (M. > 4/vol. i, 17), <...> ... S: This was the point I was going to pick up on with Alex. He kept referring to how often 'atta' is mentioned, but in most contexts it is the colloquial or conventional usage that even the Buddha used. It's not a question of changing one's language or habits, but of understanding dhammas at such times. .... S: This one from the same source which you quoted is for Phil on attabhaavapa.tilabho: ... > as "one's own person" (including the physical and mental body): > attapa.tilabha (D. 9/vol. i, 195), attabhaava (A. III, 125/vol. i, > 279; D. 33/vol. iii, 231; Dhs. 597); appaatumo and mahattaa (A. III, > 99/vol. i, 249), brahmabhutena attanaa viharati (M. 51/vol. i, 349), > paccatta"m ajjhatta"m (M. 28/vol. i, 185; for four kinds of ajjhatta > see DhsA. 46); ... S: The first reference, Phil, is to the following: "Potthapada, there are three kinds of "acquired self"; the gross acquired self, the mind-made acquired self, the formless acquired self." S: This was discussed before and how it referred to sense realms, rupa and arupa realms. The note (Walshe's)says: "Atta-pa.tilaabha: This is, of course, an 'assumed' or 'presumed' self: 'the fleeting union of qualities that make up, for a time only, an unstable individuality' (RD). [S: I'd say 'that appear to make up..'] The word is glossed by DA as attabhaava-pa.tilaabha 'adoption (or assumption) of selfhood'. The three kinds of 'acquired self' correspond to the three realms of Sense-Desire, of Form and of No-Form." [Phil, if you're still into 'Atta-pa.tilaabha', I can also check the other references for you, or you can check them yourself. Is this the name for a second dog?:-)) Thanks again, Tep. Metta, Sarah ======== #81787 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jan 27, 2008 1:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Outline of Purification of View V.4 sarahprocter... Hi Larry & all, --- LBIDD@... wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > Sarah: "Dhammayatana (mental data base) consists of all subtle rupas - > i.e all > rupas other than the 7 rupas experienced through the senses and the five > sense bases. In other words, 16 subtle rupas, cetasikas and in some > contexts nibbana. It never includes 'all mental objects', i.e all > arammana experienced through the mind." ... > Larry: Thanks for this correction. I knew there was something that > overlapped. Eye base etc. is also included in dhammayatana which is > translated as mental-object base in CMA, so for purposes of including > all bases it isn't necessary to include the 5 sense bases twice and of > course nibbana isn't included in this instance. ... S: We're not quite through with this yet. None of the ayatanas overlap. The sense bases, i.e eye base, etc., are not included in dhammayatana. As I said above: "Dhammayatana (mental data base) consists of all subtle rupas -i.e all rupas other than the 7 rupas experienced through the senses and the five sense bases." The fives sense bases are not classified as 'subtle rupas', even though they can only be known through the mind-door. It's also a little confusing because the ayatanas are sometimes translated as the 'sense bases' or 'sense fields'. I don't think these are good translations. Better to just use 'ayatanas' or 'meeting points' perhaps. For a dhamma, such as visible object, to be experienced, there has to be the 'meeting' of the inner and other ayatanas, i.e the 'meeting' of seeing consciousness, of visible object, of eye-base and of cetasikas, such as contact. here, seeing consciousness and eye-base are classified as inner ayatanas, and visible object and the cetasikas as outer ayatanas. Please let me know if there is still a bug here... Metta, Sarah ========= #81788 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jan 27, 2008 1:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Outline of Purification of View V.4 sarahprocter... Hi Ken H & Larry, --- kenhowardau wrote: >> I have often thought we should experiment with the way these > specialist threads are run. Couldn't we, for example, try something > along the lines of a classroom? People could enrol in the thread, and > then be expected to take part just as they would in class. Someone > with a slightly bossy personality could be in charge (lots of names > spring to mind) (perhaps we could take turns) and they could say > things like, "Phil, you haven't contributed lately, what do you think > about this?" .... S: Good idea! It just so happens that I'll be going away (without texts or my computer) just when Larry gives me the command to 'lead' the next chapter. So I'm using this as the perfect excuse to delegate to another 'slightly bossy personality' to be in charge. So over to you mate and then after that, you and Larry can take turns (unless you find another 'sbm' to delegate to):-)). Of course, I'll happily continue to chip and I know Nina will too. See if you can drag in a few others, putting all that theory above into practice. Good preparation for Bkk too! (Of course, you can lead the chapter just as you like. You could just have the title about 'overcoming doubt' and ask your 'students' or 'coerced reluctant members' into defining doubt for you....) Metta, Sarah ============ #81789 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jan 27, 2008 1:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Siila develops pa~n~na .. Corrected .. sarahprocter... HI Tep & Larry, --- Tep Sastri wrote: > > Tep: "How does "right understanding" develop the five precepts in a > > worldling?" > > > > Larry: If I say don't kill, killing is bad and you agree that it is > bad, it could be because you understand something. Or you could agree > just because you like me. If you understand something then there is > virtue. > > If you don't really understand that killing is bad but you refrain > from killing nevertheless, then you don't create bad kamma but I > don't know if you are really developing sila. ... S: I think Larry's making a very good point. The commentaries distinguish between 3 kinds of virati (abstention) for example: (1) natural abstention, for example, out of consideration for one's reputation or position or cultural values, (2) because one has undertaken to follow the precepts and (3)abstention through the development of right understanding, leading to the eradication of the inclination to break sila. ... > Tep: There are several levels of understanding. The simple, > intellectual understanding that killing is bad does not develop > siila. It is not yet a "right understanding" (samma-ditthi) of a > noble disciple as defined in MN 9. ... S: I agree, the intellectual understanding about the harm of killing is not enough to overcome the eradication of the tendency to harm. However, as the understanding develops more and more and really sees the harm of such tendencies, the sila becomes firmer and firmer, so that eventually there can be no inclination to kill under any circumstances whatsoever. .. > "When, friends, a noble disciple understands the unwholesome, the > root of the unwholesome, the wholesome, and the root of the > wholesome, in that way he is one of right view, whose view is > straight, who has perfect confidence in the Dhamma, and has arrived > at this true Dhamma". [MN 9 Sammaditthi] ... S: And this is the one who has developed higher sila, who has purified sila(the third type above of virati), not the other kinds. ... > > Tep: On the other hand, I don't think it is possible that right > understanding (right view, discernment, wisdom) can be developed in a > non-ariyan monk without virtue as a supporting factor. > Sambodhi Sutta (AN 9.1: Self Awakening), for example, states that > being virtuous, following Patimokka and the training rules, is the > first level of the monkhood. > The right understanding of the ariya savaka (noble disciple) comes > later. ... S: I think they develop together. Only a sotapanna who has developed right understanding to such a degree will really understand and follow the Patimokka under all circumstances (unless unintentionally breaking a minor rule). .. > (1) "Monks, when a monk has admirable friends, admirable companions, > admirable comrades, it is to be expected that he will be virtuous, > will dwell restrained in accordance with the Patimokkha, consummate > in his behavior & sphere of activity, and will train himself, having > undertaken the training rules, seeing danger in the slightest faults. > > (2) "When a monk has admirable friends, admirable companions, > admirable comrades, it is to be expected that he will get to hear at > will, easily & without difficulty, talk that is truly sobering and > conducive to the opening of awareness, i.e., talk on modesty, on > contentment, on seclusion, on non-entanglement, on arousing > persistence, on virtue, on concentration, on discernment, on release, > and on the knowledge & vision of release. > > (3) "When a monk has admirable friends, admirable companions, > admirable comrades, it is to be expected that he will keep his > persistence aroused for abandoning unskillful mental qualities, and > for taking on skillful mental qualities -- steadfast, solid in his > effort, not shirking his duties with regard to skillful mental > qualities. > > (4) "When a monk has admirable friends, admirable companions, > admirable comrades, it is to be expected that he will be discerning, > endowed with discernment of arising & passing away -- noble, > penetrating, leading to the right ending of stress. [end quote] ... S: I think these all refer to the one who has heard the Dhamma from good friends and developed wisdom to become a sotapanna. Only such a one will have such sila and see the danger in the slightest faults. Metta, Sarah ======== #81790 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jan 27, 2008 1:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Outline of Purification of View V.1 sarahprocter... Hi Larry, --- LBIDD@... wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > Sarah: "Like Nina, I'd like to stress the importance of understanding > Abhidhamma as part of our day right now, rather than stressing 'book > knowledge'. We can read and memorise the entire Patthana and not have > even a beginning of pariyatti if there's no comprehension of namas and > rupas appearing now as anatta." > > Larry: No one is going to discern all 81 kinds of mundane consciousness > unless they read the book (or hear the dhamma talk). And even then they > would have to recognize those particular categories in experience and > probably go looking for some of them. ... S: I don't think that attempts to 'discern all 81 kinds of mundane consciousness'.....or 'go looking for some of them' is what is meant by right understanding of dhammas. This sounds more like a kind of silabbataparamasa that I was just discussing in another thread. As soon as we have any idea of 'go looking for' any dhammas, it's not awareness of what has arisen already. .... >Consciousness could be categorized > in innumerable ways, there could be 17 kinds or 500 kinds. What is fear > of heights? Answer: not in the book. ... S: Good answer! ... >This insight is based specifically > on chapters 14, 15, and 16 in The Path of Purification. You might call > it a test, or a dissertation. Above all, it is the _practice_ of > insight. ... S: The practice is always the understanding now. If there is understanding of dosa (such as fear) when it appears now, that's the test, regardless of the chapter:)) Metta, Sarah ======== #81791 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jan 27, 2008 2:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the present moment. sarahprocter... Hi Alex, (Nina & all), --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > >A: And how is one the type of person who thunders but doesn't rain? > > There is the case where a person has mastered the Dhamma: dialogues, > > narratives of mixed prose and verse, explanations, verses, > > spontaneous exclamations, quotations, birth stories, amazing events, > > question & answer sessions.1 > ---------- > N: You left out the footnote 1: Sutta, Geyya, etc. question & answer > sessions: here are different parts mentioned and among them are > Abhidhamma. This was discussed before.. > You said at the end: Notice, no mention of Abhidhamma. ... S: As I have the Atthasalini open, for those who would like to hear more detail again (and who think it might just be possible to learn from the ancient commentaries!!), this is also from the Introductory Discourse (PTS transl.): "Thus the three Pitakas by the knowledge of the scriptures in various ways are to be known as the Buddha's word [S: Buddha vacana]. "How are the five Nikayas grouped? The entire words of the Buddha are divided into Digha Nikaya, Majjhima Nikaya, Samyutta, Anguttara and Khuddaka Nikayas. "Which of these is Digha Nikaya? The collection of thirty-four suttas beginning with Brahmajala, forming three divisions........... <....> "Which is the Khuddaka Nikaya? The whole of the Vinaya-Pitaka, Abhidhamma-Pitaka, and the fifteen divisions,... - beginning with Khuddakapatha, Dhammapada, all the remaining words of the Buddha, excluding the Four Nikayas..... "Which are the 'nine parts'? The entire Sutta, Geyya, Veyyaakara.na, Gaathaa, Udaana, Itivuttaka, Jaataka, Abbhuta, Vedalla. "Herein, the dual Sutta-Vibha"nga, the Niddesa, the Khadhakas, and Parivaara, the Ma"ngalasutta, Ratanasutta, Naalakasutta, Tuva.takasutta of the Sutta-Nipaata, and any other words of the Tathaagata bearing the name of Sutta should be regarded as Sutta. "All the Suttas with verses should be understood as Geyya. In particular, all the chapters with verses in the Sa.myutta-Nikaaya form Geyya. "The entire Abhidhamma-Pi.taka, Suttas without verses and any other words of the Buddha not included in the eight parts should be understood as Veyyaakara.na, or exposition. "Dhammapada, Theragaathaa, Theriigaathaa, those pieces in the Sutta-Nipaata not called Sutta, and entirely in verse should be known as Gaathaa. "Eighty-two Suttantas connected with verses due to knowledge and joy should be understood as Udaana. "One hundred and twelve Suttantas taught in this wise: 'Thus was it said by the Blessed One,' etc., should be understood as Itivuttaka.... "Five hundred and fifty birth-stories beginning with Apa.n.naka constitute the Jaataka. "All Suttantas connected with wonderful and the marvellous things spoken in this wise: 'There are, bhikkhus, four wonderful and marvellous things in Ananda,' should be understood as Abbhuta. "All Suttantas in the form of questions asked through repeated attainment of delight and understanding, such as the Suttas: Cullavedalla, Mahaavedalla.....etc., should be understood as Vedalla. Such are the nine parts." .... Metta, Sarah > N: You have to continue the sutta, about someone who does discern. > You may learn and recite the whole Tipitaka but forget that it all > points to understanding the dhamma now. That is the point of the > sutta you quote. > Discerning: understanding. > This is stress, dukkha. What is dukkha? It is the dhamma appearing > now, just now. Seeing now is dukkha and this has to be realized as it > is. Just all realities appearing now. How to realize them as such? > Being mindful and develop understanding of them right now, when they > appear. Do not put this off. Is there no seeing now, no hearing now? > These are realities mentioned in the Abhidhamma. Is there attachment > to what is seen? This is explained in the Abhidhamma. Some conceit? > This is explained in the Abhidhamma. #81792 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jan 27, 2008 2:33 am Subject: Re: Vijnanavada [Re: [dsg] Re: Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (3)] sarahprocter... Hi Phil, [I have a little more time today than usual to catch up, because Jon is down with flu and so we didn't go to the beach as usual or do any editing work...] --- Phil wrote: >The former point, never admitting she's wrong is > simply based on the fact that I can never recall anyone having > said "AS is wrong on this point." Not once. I remember one talk in > which you kind of questioned her quite hard about which is more > subtle, nama and rupa, and there was a sense you disagreed with her. ... S: And I came home, checked a text and as usual she was 100% correct. Namas are more subtle than rupas, but I had misunderstood her to be suggesting that rupas (being more gross) must appear first, which is not correct. She hadn't meant that. I clarified it then or later. The point is that (except on very minor points, such as mixing up some names, for example), even after very long and detailed questioning, I always find her answers in conformity with the Tipitaka and ancient commentaries. So, as Scott always stresses, in the end it is the Dhamma-Vinaya which is our teacher, our refuge. Good friends, very good friends such as AS, point us to this refuge. <...> >if it weren't for her this great group wouldn't be here. I looked > around but there is nothing like DSG for serious Theravadin > discussion. Who knows, maybe I will join in on it someday instead of > shooting off my mouth all the time. ... S: Shoot as much as you like and you certainly do join in in your own way. I like the way you challenge it all and as I just said to Ven P, if it's a discussion of Dhamma or dhammas (rather than personality issues), the shooting can be as direct as anyone likes:). Metta, Sarah ========= #81793 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Jan 27, 2008 3:30 am Subject: Re: James' posting about 'monk's unbecoming behaviour' buddhatrue Hi Ven. Pannabahulo, Okay, I didn't want to get too much into this, but I guess I opened the subject so I should explain more. To give some background, you wrote the post about "Full-Bodied Determinism" and many members responded. Most of them took your post seriously and gave you heart-felt advice, but I recognized it as the parody/irony that it was (probably because I have a BA in English). So, after all the input, you revealed it to be the parody it is with an explanation as to why. Honestly… truly… I was bothered about that incident, even though I "guessed" correctly, because I didn't see you as being completely honest about your intention in the first post. And, as you know, monks have very high standards of honesty to follow. If someone else had written such a post (like Herman, a member who wrote a lot of similar posts) I wouldn't have thought twice about it. But here you were again writing a similar type of post. You just asked for general input on an article. You gave the impression that you had no opinion as to content of the article. Howard wrote a post against the article and Alex and I wrote a post in favor of the article. Then, again as in the first instance, you revealed that you agreed with Howard's viewpoint (against the article) and had all along. Well, great, bully for Howard! Does he get a gold star now? Do I get a gold star for guessing correctly your true intention the first time? This type of approach to the Dhamma is juvenile and definitely unbecoming to a monk. Ven. Pannabahulo, you write, "Is there some kind of vinaya rule and/or protocol about a monk discussing Dhamma? No, in fact that is precisely what I am doing and it is the only subject of discussion the Buddha allowed monks to partake in." I hesitate to respond to this, but I guess I should. In fact, there are many Vinaya rules about a monk discussing Dhamma with laypeople: When his listener is not ill, a bhikkhu should not teach Dhamma if the listener: •has an umbrella in his/her hand. •has a staff in his/her hand. •has a knife in his/her hand. •has a weapon in his/her hand. •is wearing shoes, boots or sandals. •is sitting in a vehicle when the bhikkhu is in a lower vehicle or not in a vehicle at all. •is lying down when the bhikkhu is sitting or standing. •is sitting holding his/her knees. •is wearing a hat or a turban, or has covered his/her head with a scarf or shawl. •is sitting on a seat while the bhikkhu is sitting on the ground. •is sitting on a high seat while the bhikkhu is sitting on a lower seat. •is sitting while the bhikkhu is standing. •is walking ahead of the bhikkhu. •is walking on a path while the bhikkhu is walking beside the path. James: Ven. P. your interaction with laypeople should only be to teach the Dhamma, not to learn from them. And that teaching should only be done in person, not over the Internet. When you post to a Buddhist Internet group composed of laypeople, in essence, you are no longer a monk- and that makes things confusing for people. Ven. P: My motivating drive is my wish to LEARN. I asked for feeback in the article I submitted precisely because I am in doubt about the origin of the Abhidhamma Pitika. James: Okay, well you didn't make that clear in your introduction to the article. You just asked for feedback and gave no clue as to what you were thinking about it. I haven't read any of your other posts expressing a doubt as to the origin of the Abhidhamma. Have you posted about that before? Would anyone have any idea, or should they have an idea, as to why you posted this article? Ven. P: As to all this astral body talk it does not fit with the Lord Buddha's teachings. The Buddha and some of his disciples developed the powers to be able to move bout without their physical bodies; they used mano maya kaya or 'mind made bodies.' Their purpose in doing this was to help people - not to go haunting their friend's bedrooms frightening the life out of them. But the Buddha strongly discouraged the use/ abuse of such powers. He likened it to a woman displaying her sexual organs for money. James: Good, I am glad to finally get to something worth discussing! The article didn't say anything about the Buddha teaching about the "astral body". The article states that some use that example to show that there is something to the existence of a "person". It stated that there is a person because those with the psychic ability can replicate the body/mind combination and send it elsewhere. If there were only impersonal dhammas, that wouldn't be possible. I don't see how this argument is complete hogwash. But maybe you could respond and just focus on that point (I don't want to discuss the monk issue anymore. Anyway, you are probably a much better monk than most nowadays!) Metta, James #81794 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Sun Jan 27, 2008 3:46 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (73) nichiconn Dear Friends, Part 25 16. Mahaanipaato 1. Sumedhaatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa 470. "Nibbuyhati susaana.m, acira.m kaayo apetavi~n~naa.no; chuddho ka.li"ngara.m viya, jigucchamaanehi ~naatiihi. 468. "The body is soon carried out to the cemetery, devoid of consciousness. It is thrown away like a log disgusted by relatives. Nibbuyhati susaana.m, acira.m kaayo apetavi~n~naa.noti aya.m kaayo acireneva apagatavi~n~naa.no susaana.m nibbuyhati upaniiyati. Chuddhoti cha.d.dito. Ka.li"ngara.m viyaati niratthakaka.t.thakha.n.dasadiso. Jigucchamaanehi ~naatiihiiti ~naatijanehipi jigucchamaanehi. 468. The body is soon (acir.am) carried out (nibbuyhati) to the cemetery, devoid of consciousness (apeta-vi~n~naa.no) means: this body is soon (aciren') carried out, led out (upaniiyati), to the cemetery, without consciousness (apagata-vi~n~naa.no). Thrown away (chuddho) means: abandoned (cha.d.dito). Like a log means: like a useless stick of wood. By disgusted relatives (~naatiihi) means: even by disgusted people who are relatives (~naati-janehi). 471. "Chuddhuuna na.m susaane, parabhatta.m nhaayanti jigucchantaa; niyakaa maataapitaro, ki.m pana saadhaara.naa janataa. 469. "When they have thrown it away in the cemetery as food for others, one's own mother and father washe themselves, disgusted. How much more so ordinary people! Chuddhuuna na.m susaaneti na.m ka.levara.m susaane cha.d.detvaa. Parabhattanti paresa.m so.nasi"ngaalaadiina.m bhattabhuuta.m. Nhaayanti jigucchantaati "imassa pacchato aagataa"ti ettakenaapi jigucchamaanaa sasiisa.m nimujjantaa nhaayanti, pageva phu.t.thavanto. Niyakaa maataapitaroti attano maataapitaropi. Ki.m pana saadhaara.naa janataati itaro pana samuuho jigucchatiiti kimeva vattabba.m. 469. When they have thrown it away (chuddhuuna) in the cemetery means: when they have thrown that corpse away (cha.d.detvaa) in the cemetery. Food for others (para-bhatta.m) means: having become food (bhatta-bhuuta.m) for others (paresa.m) such as dogs and jackals. Wash, disgusted, (jigucchantaa) means: thinking, "We came behind him [the corpse]," and being disgusted (jigucchamaanaa) because of this, they plunge into [the water] up to their heads and wash. How much more [will they be disgusted] if they have touched [the corpse]! One's own (nikayaa) mother and father means: one's (attano) mother and father. How much more so do ordinary people means: how much more it is said, "But other people are disgusted." 472. "Ajjhositaa asaare, ka.levare a.t.thinhaarusa"nghaate; khe.lassuccaarassavaparipu.n.ne puutikaayamhi. 470. "They are attached to the unsubstantial body, an aggregate of bones and sinews, to the foul body, full of salive, tears, excrement, and pus. Ajjhositaati ta.nhaavasena abhinivi.t.thaa. Asaareti niccasaaraadisaararahite. 470. Attached to means: clinging because of craving. Unsubstantial (asaare) means: without a substance such as a permanent core, etc (nicca-saaraadi-saara-rahite). 473. "Yo na.m vinibbhujitvaa, abbhantaramassa baahira.m kayiraa; gandhassa asahamaanaa, sakaapi maataa jiguccheyya. 471. "If anyone, dissecting it, were to turn it inside out, even one's own mother, being unable to bear the smell of it, would be disgusted. Vinibbhujitvaati vi~n~naa.navinibbhoga.m katvaa. Gandhassa asahamaanaati gandha.m assa kaayassa asahantii. Sakaapi maataati attano maataapi jiguccheyya ko.t.thaasaana.m vinibbhujjanena pa.tikkuulabhaavaaya su.t.thutara.m upa.t.thahanato. 471. Dissecting (vinibbhujitvaa) means: having made a conscious dissection (vin~n~naa.na-vinibhoga.m). Being unable to bear (asahamaanaa) the smell (gangh') of it (assa) means: being unable to bear (sashantii) the smell of it, of the body. Even one's own (sakaa) mother means: even one's own (attano) mother would be disgusted by the dissection of the enclosed portion [of the body] because of its throoughly repulsive nature in appearance. .. to be continued, connie #81795 From: "pannabahulo" Date: Sun Jan 27, 2008 3:57 am Subject: Thank you Sarah and just two short points pannabahulo Dear Sarah, Thank you for your vey kind reply.I just raise two points. Firstly you wrote: S: "The more we understand about dhammas in daily life, the practice of the teachings, the less doubt and misunderstanding there is about the Abhidhamma Pitaka, as I see it. Then there is no need to have such discussion/controversy". P: since sending that article I have discussed this 'Abhidhamma origin conflict' with several very good friends.I accept fully that as the Abhidhamma fits in with what the Lord Buddha taught,then there is no need to pursue unanswerable questions.Thus I agree with your view on this. You also go on to say: S "I'd like to just stress again, as I have in several messages, that I have nothing at all against 'meditation' per se, but we have to clarify and define what we mean by the term. The Buddha referred two kinds - samatha and vipassana bhavana. I am very interested in such 'meditation' as taught by the Buddha". P.I mean what we call Vipassana.But could you please expand a little on what exactly you mean by "meditation as taught by the Buddha"? Thank you again Sarah, and I look forward to learning about your thoughts on precisely what Vipassana meditation means to you. Please give my best wishes to Jonothan and please wish him a speedy recovery. With metta and every best wish, Pannabahulo #81796 From: "Sukinder" Date: Sun Jan 27, 2008 4:34 am Subject: Reliquary sukinderpal All, I have just uploaded five photos of the new reliquary to be donated by the Dhamma Study and Support Foundation to house the Buddha's relics at Sarnath. Sukin #81797 From: "pannabahulo" Date: Sun Jan 27, 2008 5:09 am Subject: Reply to James' second posting about 'monk's unbecoming behaviour' pannabahulo Hi Ven. Pannabahulo, And now I see there is a new letter from you about an issue that I thought was completely clarified by my reply.Now you write: J. Okay, I didn't want to get too much into this, but I guess I opened > the subject so I should explain more. To give some background, you > wrote the post about "Full-Bodied Determinism" and many members > responded. Most of them took your post seriously and gave you > heart-felt advice, but I recognized it as the parody/irony that it was > (probably because I have a BA in English). So, after all the input, > you revealed it to be the parody it is with an explanation as to why. > Honestly… truly… I was bothered about that incident, even though I > "guessed" correctly, because I didn't see you as being completely > honest about your intention in the first post. And, as you know, > monks have very high standards of honesty to follow. If someone else had written such a post (like Herman, a member who wrote a lot of > similar posts) I wouldn't have thought twice about it". P. Again I repeat that my 'parody' was not a deception.My 'parody' was simply a summary of what I took the DSG consensus view to be.With logic it seemed to lead to a deeply deterministic viewpoint which made whatever we do a complete waste of time.That is how I saw the situation at the time.It was a parody only in as much as I took what I was understanding to its logical confusion. I now no longer hold that view.Why? Because my honesty of expression opened the gates for others to respond and clear up the confusion that was causing me suffering. As you have a BA in English, you should understand that a parody is not a dishonest or deceitful media.(Read, for example, the parody of events presented by the grave diggers in Shakespeare's 'Hamlet'.Their remarks are an explicit comment on the main action in the play). Then you go on to emphasise: J."Most of them took your post seriously and gave you heart-felt advice," P.Yes,it was a seriously motivated post. And I am truly thankful for their help. It is because of their kindness in explaining things to me that I learnt and was able to change my view. Then you continue: J. "But here you were again writing a similar type of post. You just > asked for general input on an article.You gave the impression that > you had no opinion as to content of the article. Howard wrote a post against the article and Alex and I wrote a post in favor of the > article. Then, again as in the first instance, you revealed that you agreed with Howard's viewpoint (against the article) and had all > along.Well, great, bully for Howard! Does he get a gold star now? > Do I get a gold star for guessing correctly your true intention the > first time? This type of approach to the Dhamma is juvenile and > definitely unbecoming to a monk. P. The point of that article which I posted yesteday was to show the depth and history of the division between those who do accept the Abhidhamma as the Buddha's words and those who do not. Personally, I agree with Howard that the Abhidhamma is not the words of the Buddha and was written several centuries later. But,as you will see in my post to Sarah,I have since discussed this point with others and have now concluded that the authenticity of the Abhidhamma Pitika is really of little importance.I now agree that those texts are in line with the teachings of the Buddha and that's all that needs consideration.(Please see Sarah's posting and my reply. Then your words launch into your major critical attack: J "there are many Vinaya rules about a monk discussing Dhamma with laypeople: When his listener is not ill, a bhikkhu should not teach Dhamma if the listener: > •has an umbrella in his/her hand. > •has a staff in his/her hand. > •has a knife in his/her hand. > •has a weapon in his/her hand. > •is wearing shoes, boots or sandals. > •is sitting in a vehicle when the bhikkhu is in a lower vehicle or not > in a vehicle at all. > •is lying down when the bhikkhu is sitting or standing. > •is sitting holding his/her knees. > •is wearing a hat or a turban, or has covered his/her head with a > scarf or shawl. > •is sitting on a seat while the bhikkhu is sitting on the ground. > •is sitting on a high seat while the bhikkhu is sitting on a lower seat. > •is sitting while the bhikkhu is standing. > •is walking ahead of the bhikkhu. > •is walking on a path while the bhikkhu is walking beside the path. P. None of those rules apply as I am NOT teaching Dhamma.Then you continue: James: "Ven. P. your interaction with laypeople should only be to teach the Dhamma, not to learn from them. And that teaching should only be done in person, not over the Internet. When you post to a Buddhist Internet group composed of laypeople, in essence, you are no longer a monk- and that makes things confusing for people". So I am not allowed to learn Dhamma? Learning Dhamma means being open to reality as it is.I have tremendous respect for many lay people and lay teachers.Many are much further along the path than I am.(My first Dhamma and meditation teacher was Goenka Ji.His teacher was Sayagi U Ba Khin both of whom are/were laypeople.Ajan Sujin is a lay person for whom I have tremedous respect; I also have respect for many DSG members.Ajan Naeb was also a lay meditation teacher with great gifts.And there are countless others. Why can I not learn from anyone and everybody? As the Tibetans say, "Let everything be ones teacher". On matters of Dhamma is is not helpful to make divisions between laypeople and monks.Most of us are in the same boat regardless of our differing clothes and lifestyles. But I am very musch a monk when posting on the DSG site; were you thinking I was an airline pilot? With regard to all this astral body stuff it is inconsistent with the Lord Buddha's teachings.The fact that he, and several of his disciples, used mano maya kaya (mind made bodies to move about),had nothing to do with confirming a belief in atta.They simply had supernormal powers which they used for the welfare of others. James,I welcome your critiques but many of them are completely unjustified.I accept it as Kamma Vipaka and so am happy to explain myself.I have put so many other peole in the same position. But please detach yourself from the view that monks should only be teachers.Remember the Buddha's reminder that: "If a fool can see his own folly, he in this at least is wise;but the fool who thinks he is wise, he indeed is the real fool" (Dhammapada) Or,as Socrates so aptly said: "The wise man knows that he is a fool" May you also learn dhamma and continue in your practice and study.This is exactly what I am doing.Mostof us are in the same boat. With metta and my very best wishes to you James, Pannabahulo #81798 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jan 27, 2008 5:22 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Are thoughts vipaka? dhammanusara Hi DC & Elaine, - I like your discussion. > >DC: 1. What is meaning is ascribed to thinking? Is it possible to find a sutta definition--not commentary--of thinking. >Elaine: I don't know any Sutta that gives the definition of thinking. But I found maps on how thinking and papanca arises. ----------- Tep: Let's what we may find if we connect MN 18 with MN 44. What one feels, one perceives (labels in the mind). What one perceives, one 'thinks' about. What one 'thinks' about, one 'papa�cizes'. Through the process of papa�ca, the agent then becomes a victim of his/her own patterns of thinking. (MN 18) Having first directed one's thoughts and made an evaluation, one then breaks out into speech. That's why directed thought & evaluation are verbal fabrications. (MN 44) T: I think thinking is made up of "direct thought" and "evaluation" or vitakka & vicara. Tep === #81799 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jan 27, 2008 1:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Puggalavada and Theravada Buddhist teachings re: abhidhamma upasaka_howard Hi, James (and Bhante) - In a message dated 1/27/2008 1:03:42 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@... writes: Ven. Pannabahulo, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "pannabahulo" wrote: > > Dear Howard, > > I am in 100% agreement with all you have said. I posted it merely for > the historical data relating to the various splits and sects that arose > in the early times following the Lord Buddha's parinibbana and that > then a central issue is the origin of the abhidhamma.This contention > still continues today. > All the rest about astral bodies etc is pure hogwash.But the dhammakaya > sects still hold to this absurd view which is certainly NOT the > teaching of the Buddha. You know, your really should just make your opinions and viewpoints CLEAR from the beginning. These tricky posts of yours (This one and the KS Parody) are not becoming for a monk. Secondly, I don't know much about "astral bodies" but I do know that the suttas are full of examples of the Buddha and others moving locations as fast as "one would extend an arm" and transporting to deva realms. As far as I know, the Abhidhamma doesn't contain one single explanation for psychic phenomenon. Don't dismiss off-hand what you don't understand due to not experiencing it yourself. > With meta and blessings > > Pannabahulo > Metta, James ============================== I'm unable to infer intentions of trickiness or their lack - so I'll skip comment on that, giving the presumption of innocence. As for astral bodies, my 2 cents worth is that I don't dismiss that notion at all. In fact, as a child I believe I experienced astral projection on numerous occasions. Also, the Buddha in fact wrote of a mind-made body whose release he likens to drawing a reed from it's sheath,and which matches occultists' testimony. In the Kevatta Sutta, the Buddha taught the following: __________________ "With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, he directs and inclines it to creating a mind-made body. From this body he creates another body, endowed with form, made of the mind, complete in all its parts, not inferior in its faculties. Just as if a man were to draw a reed from its sheath. The thought would occur to him: 'This is the sheath, this is the reed. The sheath is one thing, the reed another, but the reed has been drawn out from the sheath.' Or as if a man were to draw a sword from its scabbard. The thought would occur to him: 'This is the sword, this is the scabbard. The sword is one thing, the scabbard another, but the sword has been drawn out from the scabbard.' Or as if a man were to pull a snake out from its slough. The thought would occur to him: 'This is the snake, this is the slough. The snake is one thing, the slough another, but the snake has been pulled out from the slough.' In the same way — with his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, the monk directs and inclines it to creating a mind-made body. From this body he creates another body, endowed with form, made of the mind, complete in all its parts, not inferior in its faculties. --------------------------------- What I *did* find silly in this regard was the article's identifying the astral body with the Puggalavadins' "person." For one thing, the astral body, according to the Buddha, is a mind-made body, which is something *created* by the meditator (or subconsciously in spontaneous projection). Secondly, how in the world does any sort of body constitute a "person" that is an agent, actor, and recipient of kamma? With metta, Howard