#81800 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jan 27, 2008 6:21 am Subject: Re: Full bodied determinism? .. baalo or pandita? .. dhammanusara Hi KenH, - You asked a fair question : >KH: There is one thing that bothers me: do you seriously think someone is in danger of doing something stupid just because he/she has a beginner's understanding of anatta? T: No, I do not. I am sorry that you are bothered by my warning of a "danger", that may follow the innocent worldling's belief that there is "no person", etc.. The "innocent" worldling does not have matured right understanding yet, and so s/he can get into a trouble. Imho, there is no such a danger if there is no obsession with "no self". The walking in the Central Park, NY, is just an example to show that there are real people and real dangers associated with living in the real world. The ariyans who "see" emptiness in the nama-rupa also see real people they associate with everyday. They don't get mixed up, or become obsessed with no self, no Buddha, no monks, etc.; since they have the matured right understanding about anatta. The folowing sutta shows that the Buddha saw real world of real people and dangers associated with living in the real world (not "conventionally real") and taught how the monks could avoid the real dangers. "And what are the fermentations to be abandoned by avoiding? There is the case where a monk, reflecting appropriately, avoids a wild elephant, a wild horse, a wild bull, a wild dog, a snake, a stump, a bramble patch, a chasm, a cliff, a cesspool, an open sewer. Reflecting appropriately, he avoids sitting in the sorts of unsuitable seats, wandering to the sorts of unsuitable habitats, and associating with the sorts of bad friends that would make his knowledgeable friends in the holy life suspect him of evil conduct. The fermentations, vexation, or fever that would arise if he were not to avoid these things do not arise for him when he avoids them. These are called the fermentations to be abandoned by avoiding. [MN 2] T: That kind of appropriate reflection in a wise monk is not incompatible with the anatta doctrine. Hence there is no danger when there is matured right understanding of the three characteristics (anicca, dukkha, anatta). .................. >KH: The theoretical knowledge 'there are only dhammas' does not require the wisdom of the ariyans. All that is requred is for us to hear the Dhamma with ordinary commonsense. >In a similar way, a schoolchild after his first physics lesson knows in theory that the material world is just tiny, soulless subatomic particles - each surrounded by comparatively vast empty spaces. But schoolchildren can still cross a road safely. :-) T: Yes, Ken, theoretical/intelectual understanding is good at the beginning. Yes, wise common sense is also good in most living situations. But that level of immatured understanding equipped with common sense has limited penetration to the ariya-sacca (noble truths), because it is not powerful enough to erase all doubts about atta and anatta. When schoolchildren cross a road they see the real world of people, cars and trucks (macro level), and wise children are appropriately mindful of the danger associated with moving vehicles (composed of trillion and trillions of atoms and more than 90% of empty spaces). They are not obsessed with the atomic and sub-atomic levels of seeing (micro level). That's why they cross the road safety. The monks who followed the Buddha's advice in MN 2 also safely avoided dangers associated with living in the real world, while they could meditate on the anatta characteristic at the same time. No conflict. Thank you for the conversation. Tep === > #81801 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jan 27, 2008 1:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Lessons in Detachment, Ch 5, no 2. upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and Nina & Alex) - In a message dated 1/27/2008 2:11:22 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Dear Nina & Alex, --- Alex wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom > wrote: > > > -------- > > N: Also on MP3 I heard something about this I did not get. Even > the > > sotapanna can have (subtle silabbataparamasa) when wanting to have > > more sati. But is this not rather lobha without wrong view? > > I read in the texts that silabbataparamasa is a form of wrong > view, > > and also that all wrong view is eradicated by the sotapanna. > > Nina. .... >A: A sotapanna has only eradicated 3 out of 10 fetters: > > 1) belief in one's body as a self (Pali: > sakkāya-diṭṭhi) > 2) doubt or uncertainty, especially about the teachings > (vicikicchā) > 3) attachment to rites and rituals (sīlabbata-parāmāso) ... S: Nina, as Alex says a sotapanna cannot have even the most subtle of silabbataparamasa, such as a subtle trying to have more sati. Perhaps you misheard or there was an error. Was this from the recent India discussion? If you tell me where it was, I can listen. Or you can transcribe the part and I can raise it with KS. ================================== Sarah, why is trying to have more sati, a kusala lakkhana, an instance of attachment to rite & ritual? Not all intentional effort is such. Striving for kusala is part of the four right efforts and should not be identified with a defilement. Half of right effort, the positive half, is the following: __________________________ [iii] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen. [iv] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen: This, monks, is called right effort." ========================== With metta, Howard #81802 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 27, 2008 6:37 am Subject: Alone with Dhamma, Ch 1, no 5. nilovg Dear friends, We should begin to develop understanding of what appears now. When our eyes are open seeing appears. Seeing could not arise if there were no eyesense and visible object or colour. Seeing is a dhamma that arises because of its proper conditions. Realities appear one at a time through the six doors. When hardness appears, it seems that it was there already for some time, but in reality it arises and then falls away. There is hardness again, but it cannot be the same. Each dhamma that arises and falls away never returns. So it is with lobha and dosa, they seem to last for a while, but they fall away immediately. However, we think of them for a long time. When we are thinking, there is no realization of their characteristics. We think of what is past instead of attending to the characteristic appearing right now. All that is experienced is dependent on citta that arises and then falls away immediately. Citta is the chief in knowing an object and it is accompanied by several cetasikas that each perform their own function. Citta and cetasikas experience objects through the five sense-doors and the mind-door. Rúpa, physical phenomenona, can be experienced through the sense-doors and the mind-door and nåma, mental phenomena, can be experienced only through the mind-door. The rúpas of visible object, sound, odour and flavour are experienced through the relevant sense-doors and subsequently through the mind- door. The rúpas that are tactile object are: solidity appearing as hardness or softness, temperature, appearing as heat or cold, and motion, appearing as motion and pressure. These rúpas are experienced through the body-sense and subsequently through the mind-door. Thus, seven rúpas appear all the time in daily life, and without citta and cetasikas they could not appear. The Buddha taught us to develop understanding of ultimate realities, of rúpa and nåma which includes citta and cetasikas, mental factors arising with the citta. In this way wrong view and all defilements can be eradicated. Ultimate realities or paramattha dhammas are different from concepts such as persons, things or events we may think of. Ultimate realities are the objects right understanding should be developed of. We may study citta, cetasika and rúpa, but we are still bound to take citta for “my experience” and rúpa for “my body” or “my possessions”. We need to listen again and again and consider what we heard so that understanding can gradually develop. ****** Nina. #81803 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jan 27, 2008 6:39 am Subject: Re: Full bodied determinism? ... Atta & Anatta ... dhammanusara Hi Sarah (Alex, Phil), - I like your careful study and note-taking. > > Tep, I'm not sure if your long message #81497 was intended as one of your 'punishments' (lol!!), but I thought it contained a lot of good and relevant material with regards the point Alex was on about with regard to the use of 'atta' in the texts .. > T: You read my mind correctly! I just wanted to give Alex the taste of his own medicine (he is fond of extremely long quotes). It is a very good medicine, though. ... ... > > Thanks again, Tep. > T: You are very welcome, Sarah. Your friend, Tep === #81804 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 27, 2008 6:46 am Subject: Visuddhimagga, Ch XVII, 233, 234 and Tiika. nilovg Visuddhimagga, Ch XVII, 233, 234 Intro: In the preceding sections the link: ‘contact conditions feeling’ was dealt with. The following sections deal with the link: ‘feeling conditions craving’. Craving can be classified in many ways: as six when classified by way of the objects experienced through the six doors. As eighteen when each of these cravings are classified as sensuous craving, craving accompanied by eternity belief or accompanied by annihilation belief. There are still more ways of classifying as we shall see. --------- [(viii) Craving] Text Vis. 233: As regards the clause 'With feeling as condition, craving': Six cravings, for things visible And all the rest, are treated here; And each of these, when it occurs, Can in one of three modes appear. -------- N: As to the expression, ‘ Six cravings, for things visible and all the rest, are treated here’, the Tiika states with regard to ‘here’ (idha) that in this world or in this teaching (sasanaa), six cravings are treated. -------- Text Vis. 234: Six kinds of craving are shown in the analysis of this clause [in the Vibha"nga] as 'visible-data craving, sound, odour, flavour, tangible-data, and mental-data craving' (Vbh.136), called after their objects, as a son is called after his father 'banker's son', brahman's son'. Each of these six kinds of craving is reckoned threefold according to its mode of occurrence as craving for sense desires, craving for becoming, or craving for non-becoming. -------- N: When craving arises, the citta is rooted in attachment, lobha- muulacitta. There are eight types of lobha-muulacitta, four of which are accompanied by wrong view, di.t.thi, and four without wrong view. Craving for the objects experienced through the six doorways is classified as threefold, since there may be lobha-muulacitta without any wrong view when one enjoys sense objects, or there may be lobha- muulacitta accompanied by wrong view. Craving for becoming (bhavata.nhaa) may be accompanied by eternity view and craving for non-becoming (vibhavata.nhaa) is annihilation view. Eternity view and annihilation view are forms of wrong view. -------- Conclusion: As the Tiika states, six cravings with regard to visible object, sound and the other objects are treated ‘in this teaching’. When we hear the word craving we may think of craving for particular things in conventional sense. Before we heard about the Dhamma we did not know that the six doorways have to be distinguished in order to know the truth. But here, 'in this teaching' as the Tiika states, we learn to distinguish craving for each of the objects as they appear one at a time through one of the six doors. The Buddha taught clearly that only one object at a time appears through one of the six doors, and when sensuous craving arises it craves for one object as it appears through one of the six doorways. The Dhamma is not theory, it pertains to what is appearing now in daily life. This text is a reminder that we cling to all objects appearing through the senses and the mind-door. When seeing arises it experiences visible object through the eye-door, and when it has fallen away, citta rooted in lobha may arise even in the same process. When that process is over, visible object is experienced through the mind-door and again lobha-muulacitta experiences visible object. The processes of citta arise very rapidly one after the other and because of ignorance we do not notice that there were countless moments of lobha-muulacitta. As we have seen, craving for each of the six objects mentioned above can be classified as threefold: by way of enjoyment without wrong view, by way of enjoyment accompanied by the wrong view of eternity belief or of annihilation belief. ******* Nina. #81805 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jan 27, 2008 1:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Are thoughts vipaka? upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 1/27/2008 4:09:31 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Phil, Elaine, DC, Op 26-jan-2008, om 18:24 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > It seems to me that thinking is result of cetana. Does that not > make it > vipaka? The cetana that is condition for thinking is kamma, and the > thinking > must be kamma vipaka. What else, if not that? The cetana will be > wholesome, > unwholesome, or neutral, and the thinking will correspondingly be > that - > derivatively....(snipped) > > Though the conditioning cetana is not vipaka, it sure seems to me that > the resultant thinking (or the aggregation of mind states that make > up the > thinking) is. How could it not be? ------- N: What we call thinking are actually cittas accompanied by cetasikas, arising in mind-door processes and these are kusala cittas or akusala cittas, not vipaakacittas. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: That is an assertion that calls for justification, it seems to me. In fact, it is the issue being discussed. --------------------------------------------------- Vipaakacittas are seeing, hearing and the other sense-cognitions that experience visible object, sound, etc. which may be desirable or undesirable. These cittas are the results of kusala kamma or akusala kamma. The javanacittas arising in a process are either kusala cittas or akusala cittas (in the case of non-arahats). ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Are not those mind states acts of volition rather than thinking? Don't they constitute conditions for the thinking? Thinking isn't willing, and so it is not kamma. If it is not kamma, what is it? ------------------------------------------------------ Cetana, volition, is a universal accompanying each citta: kusala citta, akusala citta, vipaakacitta and kiriyacitta. Cetana coordinates the work of the accompanying dhammas and when it arises with kusala citta or akusala citta it has a double task: apart from coordinating it 'wills' kusala or akusala. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Howard It doesn't 'will' the very same state of which it is an aspect, but subsequent states - and those subsequent states of thinking are resultant, which makes them vipaka. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Thinking is accompanied by cetana and it wills kusala or akusala. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Now, this is odd. You have said that cetana "is a universal accompanying each citta." And, as you also said, some states are vipaakacitta and kiriyacitta. It is clear to me that thinking often falls into one or the other of these two categories. What is the basis for saying that no thinking does? A mere claim to that effect? I have no doubt that much of our thinking is interspersed with states of desire and will. Those states are kusala or akusala (or kiriya), and they, among other things, can condition further thinking. That subsequent thinking is, again, vipaka. Perhaps I'm wrong. But so far I've seen no argument to the contrary - just a claim. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Thinking is not always of the intensity of a good or evil deed that could produce a result later on in the form of a desirable or undesirable sense impression. Result or vipaaka has a definite meaning, it is not an effect as it is used in conventional language. Effect can have a very wide meaning, anything that is a condition for something else. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: What, then, PRECISELY, *is* the definite meaning of 'vipaka'. To simply *say* that it is something definite, quite specific, and not "conventional" is quite inadequate. Abhidhamma is supposed to be precise. We can't have it both ways. If it is precise, then it should be possible to make this matter crystal clear. --------------------------------------------------------------- An example: bodyconsciousness experiences an undesirable object (such as heat) through the bodydoor and it is accompanied by painful feeling. This is the result of akusala kamma in the past. Very soon after this citta has fallen away javanacittas arise which may be akusala cittas with aversion. Then the same object is experienced through the mind-door and again the javanacittas are accompanied by aversion. Then other mind-door processes of cittas may arise which think with aversion about the source of the pain and these cittas are thus akusala cittas. They may not have the intention of akusala kamma, or, akusala cittas with anger arise that may motivate hitting someone else, and then akusala kamma is committed that can have as result later on akusala vipaka in the form of an unpleasant sense- cognition. -------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I'm sorry, Nina, but this doesn't help me. To me it is an unclear, imprecise hodgepodge. Quite possibly that is a failing on my part - I readily admit that. I appreciate your efforts in this - I really do, but I think it may be best to let this matter go, at least for a while. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Howard, the way you use kamma and result is different from my explanation above. Nina. ================================ With metta, Howard #81806 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jan 27, 2008 7:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Siila develops pa~n~na .. My Delight .. dhammanusara Hi friend Sarah (and Larry), - To my great delight I find that your reply is very agreeable. > S: I think Larry's making a very good point. The commentaries distinguish between 3 kinds of virati (abstention) for example: (1) natural abstention, for example, out of consideration for one's reputation or position or cultural values, (2) because one has undertaken to follow the precepts and (3)abstention through the development of right understanding, leading to the eradication of the inclination to break sila. > ... T: Larry's point and your wise-chosen commentaries are both good. ........ > S: I agree, the intellectual understanding about the harm of killing is not enough to overcome the eradication of the tendency to harm. However, as the understanding develops more and more and really sees the harm of such tendencies, the sila becomes firmer and firmer, so that eventually there can be no inclination to kill under any circumstances whatsoever. > .. > > "When, friends, a noble disciple understands the unwholesome, the > > root of the unwholesome, the wholesome, and the root of the > > wholesome, in that way he is one of right view, whose view is > > straight, who has perfect confidence in the Dhamma, and has > > arrived at this true Dhamma". [MN 9 Sammaditthi] > ... > S: And this is the one who has developed higher sila, who has purified sila(the third type above of virati), not the other kinds. > ... T: I cannot agree more. > > > > Tep: On the other hand, I don't think it is possible that right > > understanding (right view, discernment, wisdom) can be developed > > in a non-ariyan monk without virtue as a supporting factor. > > Sambodhi Sutta (AN 9.1: Self Awakening), for example, states that > > being virtuous, following Patimokka and the training rules, is > > the first level of the monkhood. > > The right understanding of the ariya savaka (noble disciple) comes > > later. > ... > S: I think they develop together. Only a sotapanna who has developed right understanding to such a degree will really understand and follow the Patimokka under all circumstances (unless unintentionally breaking a minor rule). > .. T: True. Perfection in the Patimoka is beyond the Sotapanna, although it is said in the Vism several times that the Sotapanna is perfect in siila. ......... > > (1) "Monks, when a monk has admirable friends, admirable companions, > > admirable comrades, it is to be expected that he will be virtuous, > > will dwell restrained in accordance with the Patimokkha, consummate > > in his behavior & sphere of activity, and will train himself, > > having undertaken the training rules, seeing danger in the > > slightest faults. > > > > (2) "When a monk has admirable friends, admirable companions, > > admirable comrades, it is to be expected that he will get to hear > > at will, easily & without difficulty, talk that is truly sobering > > and conducive to the opening of awareness, i.e., talk on modesty, > > on contentment, on seclusion, on non-entanglement, on arousing > > persistence, on virtue, on concentration, on discernment, on > > release,and on the knowledge & vision of release. > > > > (3) "When a monk has admirable friends, admirable companions, > > admirable comrades, it is to be expected that he will keep his > > persistence aroused for abandoning unskillful mental qualities, > > andfor taking on skillful mental qualities -- steadfast, solid in > > his effort, not shirking his duties with regard to skillful > > mental qualities. > > > > (4) "When a monk has admirable friends, admirable companions, > > admirable comrades, it is to be expected that he will be discerning, endowed with discernment of arising & passing away > >-- noble,penetrating, leading to the right ending of stress. > > [end quote] > ... > S: I think these all refer to the one who has heard the Dhamma from > good friends and developed wisdom to become a sotapanna. > Only such a one will have such sila and see the danger > in the slightest faults. > T: You have made a very good point. The advantage of being with a kalyanamitta since day one is incalculable. Tep === #81807 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 27, 2008 7:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] My recent meditation experiences. Thinking regarding slowing down of mind. nilovg Dear Alex, Op 27-jan-2008, om 0:07 heeft Alex het volgende geschreven: > Metta is the best worldly merit, and as we know, Merit is crucial > towards success. I hope that it is a secret to getting to the goal > faster. It appears that Buddha taught (or mentioned) Metta more often > than Anapana... ------ N: If we think getting to the goal faster, I am so afraid that is attachment, is that not so, Alex? I do not believe that we should use metta for this end. I find it helpful to remember that when metta arises we do not expect anything for ourselves, we are concerned with the wellbeing of someone else. I do not think one can extend metta towards oneself, as you wrote, one loves oneself already enough. Also, for the Buddha's teachings on the Brahma viharas, one has to know the citta of the present moment: is it pure or not? Again, we cannot escape from the present moment. We read in the "Perfections" (by Kh Sujin) about Metta: < If we are a real friend we can help a person to be free from deeds and thoughts which are akusala, to have wholesome conduct instead of unwholesome conduct. In the ultimate sense there are no beings or persons, there are only realities arising and falling away, each with their own characteristic. We think of different situations and people with kusala citta or with akusala citta. We should know the difference between kusala and akusala. If we live according to the Dhamma, we shall further develop paññå and every kind of kusala. We shall know immediately at which moment we have no loving-kindness but akusala. Then we shall be able to have loving-kindness immediately, also for a person who behaves like an enemy.> ****** Nina. #81808 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jan 27, 2008 2:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Reply to James' second posting about 'monk's unbecoming behaviour' upasaka_howard Dear Bhante (and James) - I'm not getting into "the fray," but only commneting on one paragraph of yours, Bhante, that I like very much. In a message dated 1/27/2008 8:10:14 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, pannabahulo@... writes: So I am not allowed to learn Dhamma? Learning Dhamma means being open to reality as it is.I have tremendous respect for many lay people and lay teachers.Many are much further along the path than I am.(My first Dhamma and meditation teacher was Goenka Ji.His teacher was Sayagi U Ba Khin both of whom are/were laypeople.Ajan Sujin is a lay person for whom I have tremedous respect; I also have respect for many DSG members.Ajan Naeb was also a lay meditation teacher with great gifts.And there are countless others. Why can I not learn from anyone and everybody? As the Tibetans say, "Let everything be ones teacher". ================================ With regard to the Tibetans, I recall something to the effect that one should "see all sights as yantra [note: comparable to kasinas] and hear all sounds as mantra." That matches the sense of what you wrote last, and I like it immensely. It also fits in well with the vipassana bhavana that involves attending to whatever there is "in the moment." With metta, Howard #81809 From: "Alex" Date: Sun Jan 27, 2008 7:14 am Subject: Re: James' posting about 'monk's unbecoming behaviour' truth_aerator Bhante, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "pannabahulo" wrote: > > > I ask you James, what is so unbecoming for a monk who - has doubts > about the origins of the Abhidhamma Pitika - and submits an article > relating the history of the development and/or decline of Buddhist > thinking with specific reference to this abhidhamma viewpoint.? >>> You did the right thing. One of the duties of a monk is to say this Dhamma is Dhamma, this Adhamma is Adhamma. >>> Is there some kind of vinaya rule and/or protocol about a monk > discussing Dhamma? No, in fact that is precisely what I am doing and it is the only subject of discussion the Buddha allowed monks to > partake in. > See above. If more monks were as open as you regarding doubting what may have never been said by The Buddha. Speaking of this: In which Sutta did the Buddha proclaim that he taught Abhidhamma Pitaka??? Please don't reinterpret Vyakarana as Abhidhamma Because this isn't proven (until someone shows me the sutta which says that Vyakarana = Abhidhamma Pitaka) For example in AN he has said that Dhamma= SUTTAS. The Dhamma-Vinaya is the final guide. If Abhidhamma Pitaka existed at that time and if it was as important as later devotees claimed, then Buddha would say Dhamma-Abhidhamma-Vinaya. As far as I know, he hasn't. Furthermore Bhante, in which Sutta does the Buddha say "In order to become an Ariya you must study Abhidhamma Pitaka?" Which of the 37 factor of Awakening is equated with Abhidhamma Pitaka studying? NONE!!! Right Intention limb = thoughts of renunciation, non-ill will - non harming (which metta bhavana and other brahmaviharas do). Right View is also has very little to do with Abhidhamma Pitaka and as far as I know has NEVER been stated to require Abhidhamma Pitaka study. Where in the Suttas is there a mention of 89 cittas, 50+ cetasikas, etc? All things (including Vinnana, Rupa, Sanna - labels, etc) are anicca, dukkha, anatta. Giving them the "Ultimate Categories" status and devoting too much time to memorize them by heart is sneaking back the "Atman" or at least "ultimate sabhava objects" into Buddha Dhamma. Etc etc. Lots of Metta, Alex #81810 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 27, 2008 7:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Outline of Purification of View V.5 nilovg Hi Larry, Op 26-jan-2008, om 16:13 heeft Larry het volgende geschreven: > Larry: "Every mundane consciousness except the jhana cittas can be > prompted" > > Larry: Obviously an unprompted consciousness can't be prompted. I > believe there are 27 > prompted and 27 unprompted. So the exaggerated role I assigned to > prompted > consciousness is completely wrong. ------- N: You are right, of jhanacittas and lokuttara cittas it is not said that they are unprompted or prompted, although they have as preparation mahaa-kusala cittas with pa~n~naa. I read about this subject in 'Topics of Abh.', p. 27, 28 (Co to Abhidhammattha Sangaha): < ...the condition of being unprompted is due to such reasons as a healthy condition of body and mind by virtue of a suitable dwelling place and so forth, and the previous habit of generosity and so forth in the past; the condition of being prompted should be understood as the inverse of these.> Nina. #81811 From: "Alex" Date: Sun Jan 27, 2008 7:22 am Subject: Re: the present moment. truth_aerator Dear Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Alex, (Nina & all), > S: As I have the Atthasalini open, for those who would like to hear more > detail again ( >>> That is the problem, Sarah. The AA is a commentary written by someone living AFTER the Buddha - thus has NO AUTHORITY IF IT DOESN'T AGREE WITH THE SUTTAS. If you can find me a sutta (from 4 Nikayas) that equate Veyyaakara.na with the suttas, then I'll gladly apologize. So far, Abhidhamma pitaka was NOT taught by the Buddha. As with other sectarian Abhidhammas, this treatise was to show in detail a sectarian views regarding metaphysical issues. You remember how everything said, even by a Venerable monk who is highly respected (Buddhaghosa for example) MUST BE CHECKED AGAINST SUTTAS & VINAYA. If the Ven. monks position contradicts, then he isn't teaching Buddha Dhamma. --- FOUR GREAT REFERENCES: 8-11. Then the Blessed One said: "In this fashion, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu might speak: 'Face to face with the Blessed One, brethren, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation'; or: 'In an abode of such and such a name lives a community with elders and a chief. Face to face with that community, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation'; or: 'In an abode of such and such a name live several bhikkhus who are elders, who are learned, who have accomplished their course, who are preservers of the Dhamma, the Discipline, and the Summaries. Face to face with those elders, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation'; or: 'In an abode of such and such a name lives a single bhikkhu who is an elder, who is learned, who has accomplished his course, who is a preserver of the Dhamma, the Discipline, and the Summaries. Face to face with that elder, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation.' "In such a case, bhikkhus, the declaration of such a bhikkhu is neither to be received with approval nor with scorn. Without approval and without scorn, but carefully studying the sentences word by word, one should trace them in the Discourses (Suttas) and verify them by the Discipline (Vinaya). If they are neither traceable in the Discourses (Suttas) nor verifiable by the Discipline, one must conclude thus: 'Certainly, this is not the Blessed One's utterance; this has been misunderstood by that bhikkhu -- or by that community, or by those elders, or by that elder.' In that way, bhikkhus, you should reject it. But if the sentences concerned are traceable in the Discourses (Suttas) and verifiable by the Discipline (Vinaya), then one must conclude thus: 'Certainly, this is the Blessed One's utterance; this has been well understood by that bhikkhu -- or by that community, or by those elders, or by that elder.' And in that way, bhikkhus, you may accept it on the first, second, third, or fourth reference. These, bhikkhus, are the four great references for you to preserve." "Whatever Dhamma-Vinaya I have pointed out and formulated for you, that will be your Teacher when I am gone." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn16.html --- Lots of Metta, Alex #81812 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jan 27, 2008 2:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] My recent meditation experiences. Thinking regarding slowing down o... upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Alex) - In a message dated 1/27/2008 10:08:11 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Dear Alex, Op 27-jan-2008, om 0:07 heeft Alex het volgende geschreven: > Metta is the best worldly merit, and as we know, Merit is crucial > towards success. I hope that it is a secret to getting to the goal > faster. It appears that Buddha taught (or mentioned) Metta more often > than Anapana... ------ N: If we think getting to the goal faster, I am so afraid that is attachment, is that not so, Alex? I do not believe that we should use metta for this end. I find it helpful to remember that when metta arises we do not expect anything for ourselves, we are concerned with the wellbeing of someone else. I do not think one can extend metta towards oneself, as you wrote, one loves oneself already enough. Also, for the Buddha's teachings on the Brahma viharas, one has to know the citta of the present moment: is it pure or not? Again, we cannot escape from the present moment. We read in the "Perfections" (by Kh Sujin) about Metta: < If we are a real friend we can help a person to be free from deeds and thoughts which are akusala, to have wholesome conduct instead of unwholesome conduct. In the ultimate sense there are no beings or persons, there are only realities arising and falling away, each with their own characteristic. We think of different situations and people with kusala citta or with akusala citta. We should know the difference between kusala and akusala. If we live according to the Dhamma, we shall further develop paññå and every kind of kusala. We shall know immediately at which moment we have no loving-kindness but akusala. Then we shall be able to have loving-kindness immediately, also for a person who behaves like an enemy.> ****** Nina. ==================================== The cultivation of metta is not only for the sake of others. For one thing, it is to be cultivated for *all* beings, which does not exclude oneself. And metta, after all, is lovingkindness, not selfish liking or lust. Secondly, the Buddha taught about metta bhavana in a way that does emphasize it's benefits to oneself. For example, there is the sutta I copy at the end of this post. With metta ;-), Howard _______________________________________________________ AN 11.16 Metta (Mettanisamsa) Sutta Discourse on Advantages of Loving-kindness Translated from the Pali by Piyadassi Thera Alternate translation: _Piyadassi_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an11/an11.016.piya.html) _Thanissaro_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an11/an11.016.than.html) PTS: A v 342 BJT calls this the Mettanisamsa Sutta; Thai, Burmese, and PTS call it Metta Sutta. ____________________________________ Source: From _The Book of Protection_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/piyadassi/protection.html) , translated by Piyadassi Thera (Kandy: Buddhist Publication Society, 1999). Copyright © 1999 Buddhist Publication Society. Used with permission. ____________________________________ Copyright © 1999 Buddhist Publication Society. Access to Insight edition © 2005 For free distribution. This work may be republished, reformatted, reprinted, and redistributed in any medium. It is the author's wish, however, that any such republication and redistribution be made available to the public on a free and unrestricted basis and that translations and other derivative works be clearly marked as such. ____________________________________ Thus have I heard: On one occasion the Blessed One was living near Savatthi at Jetavana at Anathapindika's monastery. Then he addressed the monks saying, "Monks." — "Venerable Sir," said the monks, by way of reply. The Blessed One then spoke as follows: "Monks, eleven advantages are to be expected from the release (deliverance) of heart by familiarizing oneself with thoughts of loving-kindness (metta), by the cultivation of loving-kindness, by constantly increasing these thoughts, by regarding loving-kindness as a vehicle (of expression), and also as something to be treasured, by living in conformity with these thoughts, by putting these ideas into practice, and by establishing them. What are the eleven? 1. "He sleeps in comfort. 2. He awakes in comfort. 3. He sees no evil dreams. 4. He is dear to human beings. 5. He is dear to non-human beings. 6. Devas (gods) protect him. 7. Fire, poison, and sword cannot touch him. 8. His mind can concentrate quickly. 9. His countenance is serene. 10. He dies without being confused in mind. 11. If he fails to attain arahantship (the highest sanctity) here and now, he will be reborn in the brahma-world. "These eleven advantages, monks, are to be expected from the release of heart by familiarizing oneself with thoughts of loving-kindness, by cultivation of loving-kindness, by constantly increasing these thoughts, by regarding loving-kindness as a vehicle (of expression), and also as something to be treasured, by living in conformity with these thoughts, by putting these ideas into practice and by establishing them." So said the Blessed One. Those monks rejoiced at the words of the Blessed One. #81813 From: Dieter Möller Date: Sun Jan 27, 2008 8:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] My recent meditation experiences. Thinking regarding slowing down o... moellerdieter Dear Nina ( Howard and Alex), I was preparing my mail to you when I recognized that Howard stumbled as well upon your message...: Nina : If we think getting to the goal faster, I am so afraid that is attachment, is that not so, Alex? I do not believe that we should use metta for this end. I find it helpful to remember that when metta arises we do not expect anything for ourselves, we are concerned with the wellbeing of someone else. I do not think one can extend metta towards oneself, as you wrote, one loves oneself already enough. Also, for the Buddha's teachings on the Brahma viharas, one has to know the citta of the present moment: is it pure or not? Again, we cannot escape from the present moment. D: Nina , I would wish you may remember better to be a listener when it comes to issues as meditation .. Because of its beauty I quote here the Metta Sutta (transl. by T.B.) , which may be a very suitable approach by its recollection at the beginning of a session... "This is to be done by one skilled in aims who wants to break through to the state of peace: Be capable, upright, & straightforward, easy to instruct, gentle, & not conceited, content & easy to support, with few duties, living lightly, with peaceful faculties, masterful, modest, & no greed for supporters. Do not do the slightest thing that the wise would later censure. Think: Happy, at rest, may all beings be happy at heart. Whatever beings there may be, weak or strong, without exception, long, large, middling, short, subtle, blatant, seen & unseen, near & far, born & seeking birth: May all beings be happy at heart. Let no one deceive another or despise anyone anywhere, or through anger or irritation wish for another to suffer. As a mother would risk her life to protect her child, her only child, even so should one cultivate a limitless heart with regard to all beings. With good will for the entire cosmos, cultivate a limitless heart: Above, below, & all around, unobstructed, without enmity or hate. Whether standing, walking, sitting, or lying down, as long as one is alert, one should be resolved on this mindfulness. This is called a sublime abiding here & now. Not taken with views, but virtuous & consummate in vision, having subdued desire for sensual pleasures, one never again will lie in the womb." This sutta is for recollection , Nina. As the practise of bhavana is concerned following quote from Nyanatiloka may give you a second thought: Vis.M. III-XI gives full directions how to attain full concentration and the absorptions (jhÄ?na, q.v.) by means of the following 40 meditation subjects (kammaá¹¹?na): 10 kasiṇa-exercises (s. kasiṇa). These produce the 4 absorptions 10 loathsome subjects (asubha, q.v.). These produce the 1st absorption. 10 Recollections (anussati, q.v.): of the Buddha (buddhÄ?nussati), the Doctrine (dhammÄ?nussati), the Brotherhood of the Noble Ones (saṃghÄ?nussati), morality, liberality, the heavenly beings, death (maraṇasati, q.v. ), the body (kÄ?yagatÄ?sati, q.v.), in-and-outbreathing (Ä?nÄ?pÄ?na-sati, q.v.) and peace (upasamÄ?nussati, q.v.). Among these, the recollection (or mindfulness) of in-and-out breathing may produce all the 4 absorptions, that of the body the 1st absorption, the rest only neighbourhood-concentration (upacÄ?ra-samÄ?dhi, s. samÄ?dhi). 4 Sublime Abodes (brahma-vihÄ?ra, q.v.): loving-kindness, compassion, altruistic joy, equanimity (mettÄ?, karuṇÄ?, muditÄ? , upekkhÄ?). Of these, the first 3 exercises may produce 3 absorptions, the last one the 4th absorption only. 4 Immaterial Spheres (arÅ«pÄ?yatana, s. jhÄ?na): of unbounded space, unbounded consciousness, nothingness, neither-perception-nor-non-perception. These are based upon the 4th absorption. 1 Perception of the Loathsomeness of Food (Ä?hÄ?re paṫla-saññÄ?), which may produce neighbourhood-concentration 1 Analysis of the 4 elements (catudhÄ?tu-vavatthÄ?na, s. dhÄ?tu-vavatthÄ?na), which may produce neighbourhood-concentration. Mental development forms one of the 3 kinds of meritorious action (puñña-kiriya-vatthu, q.v.). 'Delight in meditation' (bhÄ?vanÄ?-rÄ?matÄ?) is one of the noble usages (ariya-vaṃsa, q.v.) . unquote. with Metta Dieter #81814 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jan 27, 2008 8:50 am Subject: Levels of Understanding dhammanusara Hi Nina, (KenH, Sarah, Scott and other members), - I used to raise questions about what understanding means and the several kinds of understanding. Now let me answer them for you, using the Patisambhidamagga. 1. What is understanding? paññÄ? is understanding. Other meanings are knowledge, wisdom, insight, comprehension, intelligence. [Nyanatiloka Dictionary] Knowledge is ñÄ?na. There are 73 kinds of ñÄ?na as given in Treatise I of the Patisambhidamagga by the great Arahant Sariputta. For example : knowledge of what consists in the heard (learnt) -- suttamayañÄ?na knowledge of what consists in virtue -- silamayañÄ?na knowledge of what consists in development of concentration -- bhavanamayañÄ?na knowledge of comprehension -- sammasanañÄ?na knowledge of insight -- vipassana~nana knowledge of the kinds of equanimity of formations -- sankharupekkhañÄ?na knowledge of danger --adinavañÄ?na knowledge of the path -- maggañÄ?na knowledge of fruition -- phalañÄ?na knowledge of deliverance -- vimuttiñÄ?na knowledge of the meaning of what-is-known -- ñatattañÄ?na knowledge of the meaning of judgment(investigation) -- tiranattañÄ?na knowledge in the sense of giving up -- pariccagattañÄ?na knowledge of concentration with immediate[result] -- anantarika- samadhiñÄ?na knowledge of turning away through perception -- sannavivattañÄ?na knowledge of turning away by the will -- cetovivattañÄ?na knowledge of exhaustion of cankers -- asavakkhayañÄ?na knowledge of suffering -- dukkhañÄ?na knowledge of origin -- samudayañÄ?na knowledge of cessation -- nirodhañÄ?na knowledge of the path -- maggañÄ?na Knowledge of the way leading to the cessation of suffering -- dukkhanirodhagaminipatipadañÄ?na. ... and more. [See Patisambhidamagga, I On Knowledge] 2. Is right view a kind of understanding? Yes, according to the Chief Disciple Sariputta, right view that arises contingent upon suffering (dukkha),for instance, is an understanding "in one who possesses the path". [Patism I] 568. Knowledge in one who possesses the path is knowledge of suffering and it is knowledge of the origin of suffering and it is knowledge of the cessation of suffering and it is knowledge of the way leading to the cessation of sufferring. Herein, what is knowledge of suffering? Any understanding, act-of-understanding, investigation, reinvestigation, investigation-of-ideas (dhamma-vicara), noting, taking notice, learning, skill, cleverness, estimation,. ratiocination, scrutiny, over-all-ness, good-sense, piloting, insight, full-awareness, spur, understanding, understanding as faculty (paññindriya), understanding as power, understanding as weapon, understanding as stronghold, understanding as a light, understanding as illumination, understanding as lighting up, understanding as treasure, non-delusion, investigation of ideas, right view, that arises contingent upon suffering : this is called knowledge of suffering (cf. Dhs 16). Any understanding, ... right view, that arises contingent upon the origin of suffering: ... Any understanding, ... right view, that arises contingent upon cessation of suffering: ... Any understanding, ... right view, that arises contingent upon the way leading to the cessation of sufferring: this is called knowledge of the way leading to the cessation of sufferring. [end quote] Tep === #81815 From: Dieter Möller Date: Sun Jan 27, 2008 9:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Alleged Slowing Down of Mind States .. The Monkey Mind Model.... moellerdieter Hi Howard, Tep and .. you wrote : I do not, though I think of vi~n~nana as nama. At _http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha205.htm_ , Kalupahana writes the following: "In the Suttas, nama is used to refer to all aspects of mind except consciousness itself. In later texts, it usually also includes consciousness. " D: if only found in later texts , (Abh.?) , why do you think so? with Metta Dieter #81816 From: Dieter Möller Date: Sun Jan 27, 2008 9:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Alleged Slowing Down of Mind States .. The Monkey Mind Model.... moellerdieter Hi Tep , Alex, Howard.. you wrote: From Howard's latest post the meanings of 'nama' (mentality) may be summarized as follows.Budsas.org: "In the Suttas, nama is used to refer to all aspects of mind except consciousness itself. In later texts, it usually also includes consciousness". D: pls see my message to Howard Tep: MN 9 : "Feeling, perception, volition, contact and attention â€" these are called mentality". D: yes , the usual nama grouping of vedana - , sanna- and sankhara khanda.. Tep: I found ATI Glossary useful too. nama [naama]: Mental phenomena. This term refers to the mental components of the five khandhas, and includes: vedana (feeling), sañña (perception), sankhara (mental fashionings), and viññana (consciousness). T: Note that the five aggregates completely define nama & rupa, thus it is clear that 'nama' also means arupa : i.e. whatever dhammas that are not rupa(form = the four great elements) must be nama. D: I noted that ATI is missing to say that it is the definition of later texts..(see above) Tep: Nibbana is not in the khandhas, so Nibbana is not a nama. D: yes, nibbana isn't conditioned .... I only wanted to emphasize that one should be careful when considering ' groupings' .. up to now I found no convincing explanation that in Abh. under the umbrella of Paramattha Dhammas nibbana is mentioned besides the khandas.. with Metta Dieter #81817 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Jan 27, 2008 9:44 am Subject: Re: "Tripe face boogie, boogie my scrupples away." Little Feet scottduncan2 Good Morning colette, I'm glad to read you. I hope you are well. c: "I have other things to be doing right now but decided to breeze through and see what messages caught my eye. Lucky you, your message, for some reason jumped out and said "Pick me, pick me" as if it was a Sweathog in the TV show 'Welcome Back Kotter'." Scott: Thanks. Me: "Why do you think that this is important for me to know about?" colette: "...this is the sentence that brought me no choice but to comment,post, reply. Scott, for you to 'know' REQUIRES that you are in a state of 'BEING' which is quite impossible under the requirements given to us in the Doctrine of Sunyata. This means that you have crystalized yourself, or polarised yourself in an EXTREME so that you can THEN turn around and polarise another individual since you started the sentence by saying 'Why do you think...', WHICH LEADS ME TO COGNIZING: that you intentionally manifest DUALITY as the mode, means, with which to validate your existance as if you actually do exist. Here comes the greater of the stretches of imagination, you have COGNIZED Alex specifically for CREATING YOU: You would not exist if it was not for the Existance of Alex, but more importantly, YOU CREATE HOW ALEX IS TO EXIST, of your own free will and choice, SO THAT YOU CAN EXIST IN A WAY THAT SPECIFICALLY GRATIFIES YOU. Ain't that one helluva stretch?" Scott: Beautiful. I am perhaps a CHIMERIC EPIPHENOMENON of the BLISSED-OUT STATE. Mutual Polarisation and the Manifestation of the OTHER. Perhaps Alex Created me, since I dove in to respond, but I fear not. Why should another's ACID TRIP be any of my affair? Unless it is transformed into a shimmering wall of effect-laden guitar sound, WHO CARES? And even then I'm just CLINGING and CRAVING. c: "thanx for putting up with that diatribe, that rant and rave." Scott: Never a problem, colette. Stay cool, keep warm. Sincerely, Scott #81818 From: "Alex" Date: Sun Jan 27, 2008 10:00 am Subject: Re: My recent meditation experiences. Thinking regarding slowing down of mind. truth_aerator Dearest Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Dear Alex, > > Regarding: > > A: "For my formal "meditations" I generally practice Metta. It works > well for making me go deep, quick and bliss out almost > instanteneously..." > > Scott: Why do you think that this is important for me to know about? > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > So we can talk about it. What do you think this is, a secret? Is there anything wrong? Your message sounds fairly negative, what Bhavana do you practice? Lots of Metta, Alex #81819 From: "glenjohnann" Date: Sun Jan 27, 2008 10:14 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Lessons in Detachment, Ch 5, no 2. glenjohnann Hi Sarah, Nina and Alex Re: below > > > N: Also on MP3 I heard something about this I did not get. Even > > the > > > sotapanna can have (subtle silabbataparamasa) when wanting to have > > > more sati. But is this not rather lobha without wrong view? > > > I read in the texts that silabbataparamasa is a form of wrong > > view, > > > and also that all wrong view is eradicated by the sotapanna. > > > Nina. > .... > >A: A sotapanna has only eradicated 3 out of 10 fetters: > > > > 1) belief in one's body as a self (Pali: > > sakkāya-diṭṭhi) > > 2) doubt or uncertainty, especially about the teachings > > (vicikicchā) > > 3) attachment to rites and rituals (sīlabbata- parāmāso) > ... > S: Nina, as Alex says a sotapanna cannot have even the most subtle of > silabbataparamasa, such as a subtle trying to have more sati. Perhaps you > misheard or there was an error. Was this from the recent India discussion? > If you tell me where it was, I can listen. Or you can transcribe the part > and I can raise it with KS. Sarah - I would appreciate you raising this with Acharn Suchin in Feb. I do recall having this particular discussion in India, and still not feeling that I was clear about it. It would be good to go over it again. Ann #81820 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Jan 27, 2008 10:29 am Subject: Re: My recent meditation experiences. Thinking regarding slowing down of mind. scottduncan2 Dear Alex, Me: "Why do you think that this is important for me to know about?" A: "So we can talk about it..." Scott: Thanks. I'd be most interested in hearing how the state you described has anything to be recommended about it. You write as if it does. I'd like to know what in fact you think this state is. I'd like to learn whether this is what one is supposed to seek when one 'practises' or when one 'meditates'. Sincerely, Scott. #81821 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jan 27, 2008 5:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Alleged Slowing Down of Mind States .. The Monkey Mind Model.... upasaka_howard Hi, Dieter (and Tep) - In a message dated 1/27/2008 12:12:40 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, moellerdieter@... writes: Hi Howard, Tep and .. you wrote : I do not, though I think of vi~n~nana as nama. At _http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha205.htm_ , Kalupahana writes the following: "In the Suttas, nama is used to refer to all aspects of mind except consciousness itself. In later texts, it usually also includes consciousness. " D: if only found in later texts , (Abh.?) , why do you think so? --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I truly don't know. Perhaps, and this is a big 'perhaps', in the suttas consciousness was thought of as the sine qua non or underlying basis for all else, and thus mentality was associated only with consciousness factors, what Abhidhamma calls the "cetasikas." Moreover, the exclusion of of vi~n~nana from nama in the definition of 'nama' as "feeling, perception, volition, contact and attention" is not the only oddity. There are plenty of other mental factors excluded as well, for example metta, lobha, ekagatta, sati, and pa~n~na. Now, one might argue that "volition" in the list was intended to include the entire sankharakkhandha. But that is questionable, inasmuch as attention is individiually listed. So, I just don't know. Now, HERE, by the way, is an example of an area of unclarity that calls out for a good commentarial explanation. Anybody have such commentary to provide? -------------------------------------------------------- with Metta Dieter ============================= With metta, Howard #81822 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 27, 2008 11:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: MP3 discussions. nilovg Dear Sarah, Yes and another point: She said that no rupa is ever the same even if it is the same type, no feeling is ever the same, etc. This is very clear. But she said that if we understand this we understand what the khandhas are. This discussion did not continue, but I do not completely get it. I think it is a relevant point. She also said that we can only understand the meaning of khandhas when awareness arises. Thus, this is important, it concerns the practice.This is 16 Aug. P, b, it begins with the difference between dukkha and the noble truth of dukkha. Nina. Op 27-jan-2008, om 19:14 heeft glenjohnann het volgende geschreven: > Sarah - I would appreciate you raising this with Acharn Suchin in > Feb. I do recall having this particular discussion in India, and > still not feeling that I was clear about it. It would be good to go > over it again. #81823 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 27, 2008 11:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Reliquary nilovg Dear Sukin, thank you, very beautiful, Nina. Op 27-jan-2008, om 13:34 heeft Sukinder het volgende geschreven: > I have just uploaded five photos of the new reliquary to be donated by > the Dhamma Study and Support Foundation to house the Buddha's relics > at Sarnath. #81824 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 27, 2008 11:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Are thoughts vipaka? nilovg Hi Howard, Op 27-jan-2008, om 15:55 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > What, then, PRECISELY, *is* the definite meaning of 'vipaka'. To > simply > *say* that it is something definite, quite specific, and not > "conventional" > is quite inadequate. Abhidhamma is supposed to be precise. We can't > have it > both ways. If it is precise, then it should be possible to make > this matter > crystal clear. ------- N: Vipaaka is the fruit of kamma which has ripened. Let us begin at the first moment of our life. Kamma produced our birth, being born in this place from such parents, in such surroundings. There was a first moment of life, this is a citta, namely, vipaakacitta, the fruit produced by past kamma. Birth as a human is the fruit of kusala kamma. We are lucky to be born as a human so that we can hear the Dhamma. Birth in a hell plane is the fruit of akusala kamma, so is animal birth. Do you find all this acceptable? As for me, I would like to go step by step in short posts, long posts are very heavy and tiring. If you would rather not, it is O.K. too. But I think it is essential to have a basic understanding of what kamma is and what vipaka. Nina. #81825 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 27, 2008 11:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Outline of Purification of View V.7 nilovg HI Larry, Op 27-jan-2008, om 2:26 heeft LBIDD@... het volgende geschreven: > Larry: To sum up this section: what is designated by a concept, for > example 'person', 'chariot' etc., is ultimately only nama and rupa > in a > process of becoming. To think there is an ultimate person is due to > clinging to becoming or annihilation. Perception of only nama and rupa > is the remedy for that clinging. ------ N: Thank you, a very good conclusion. I am glad there was so much about eternity belief and annihilation belief since this also comes up in our Vis. Ch XVII. Nina. #81826 From: "shennieca" Date: Sun Jan 27, 2008 12:08 pm Subject: Re: Are thoughts vipaka? shennieca Hi Howard, Phil, DC, Tep, (all), I found an article about 'Vipaka Citta'. It says: Kamma is generally explained as Cetana (Volition) 'Cetanahan BhikkaveKamman Vadami.' In Abhidhamma, Buddha has stated that Cetana is a Universal Mental Factor (Sabha Citta Sadarana Cetasika) present in all 89 types of thoughts or Citta, but Kamma is formed only in 12 Akusala (Unwholesome) and 17 Kusala (Wholesome) Citta. Vipaka citta (Resultants) and Kiriya (Functional) Citta do not generate Kamma although Cetana is present in them. /endquote From: http://72.14.205.104/search? q=cache:9cBDomMw8UMJ:www.lakehouse.lk/budusarana/2004/05/11/Budu13.pdf +vipaka+citta&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=8&gl=ca ----- It says, 'thoughts or citta' - which means that all thoughts are Cittas. 'Thoughts' is a very general term or an umbrella term but Cittas have many categories, (which cannot be proven by puthujjanas). These Citta categories are accepted with 'belief or blind-faith'. That's why we can never win an argument with Abhidhammikas because all they do is show you the book and point it to you and say, 'there, there it says here in the book..... (off-topic). If some Cittas are vipaka and some cittas are Not vipaka, then we can say, "some thoughts are vipaka and some thoughts are Not vipaka", it all depends on what we are thinking about. Does it make sense? --- Furthermore, I see a discrepancy in the logic. Cetana is Kamma, Cetana is also a "Universal Mental Factor" in ALL 89 cittas, BUT Kamma is formed in only 12 Akusala and 17 Kusala Citta. It means that some Cetana do not produce Kamma but Buddha said Cetana IS Kamma! Or did the Buddha say, "some cetana are kamma and some cetana are Not Kamma? 12 + 17 = 29, so the other 60 cittas do not produce Kamma eventhough they have Cetana in them. Why?? Why is Kamma not present in the other 60 cittas? Do you think there is a discrepancy between the Sutta and the Abhidhamma? With mettaa, Elaine #81827 From: "Alex" Date: Sun Jan 27, 2008 12:11 pm Subject: Re: My recent meditation experiences. Thinking regarding slowing down of mind. truth_aerator Dear Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Dear Alex, > > Me: "Why do you think that this is important for me to know about?" > > A: "So we can talk about it..." > > Scott: Thanks. I'd be most interested in hearing how the state you > described has anything to be recommended about it. >>> As Buddha has said: Please outside of 5 strings of sensuality is to be recommended, to be developed, to bemade much off. The bliss is due to temporary shutting off sensuality and unwholesome mental states. It helps me to KNOW, SEE AND FEEL that strings of sensuality are PAINFUL, like a rope around a neck. > does. I'd like to know what in fact you think this state is. I'd > like to learn whether this is what one is supposed to seek when one > 'practises' or when one 'meditates'. > > Sincerely, > > Scott. >>>> Yes, this burning state is to be seeked. However it is a temporary step towards the 4th (Ecstasy) Jhana that Metta leads (according to a sutta pg. 1607 CDB by BB). Samadhi facility must be developed to a certain degree to break through, and to see 5 aggregates as painful, alien, dart, not self. Lots of Metta, Alex #81828 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 27, 2008 12:22 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Levels of Understanding nilovg Dear Tep, I am always so glad when you quote the Patis. I know you have studied it and are still stydying. Thank you. Later on I shall read your post. Nina Op 27-jan-2008, om 17:50 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > I used to raise questions about what understanding means and the > several kinds of understanding. Now let me answer them for you, using > the Patisambhidamagga. > > 1. What is understanding? #81829 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jan 27, 2008 7:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Are thoughts vipaka? upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 1/27/2008 2:43:40 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Op 27-jan-2008, om 15:55 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > What, then, PRECISELY, *is* the definite meaning of 'vipaka'. To > simply > *say* that it is something definite, quite specific, and not > "conventional" > is quite inadequate. Abhidhamma is supposed to be precise. We can't > have it > both ways. If it is precise, then it should be possible to make > this matter > crystal clear. ------- N: Vipaaka is the fruit of kamma which has ripened. ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes. Specifically, a mindstate, right? One that had the kamma as a condition for it? ----------------------------------------------------- Let us begin at the first moment of our life. Kamma produced our birth, being born in this place from such parents, in such surroundings. ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: But do you not consider that entire scenario, the birth to particular parents in a particular realm, in certain surroundings, and with certain physical and mental propensities mere convention? Or do you consider the specific rebirth citta, that specific mind state, to be the actual vipaka, and for it to "include" or "imply" all the rest? ------------------------------------------------------ There was a first moment of life, this is a citta, namely, vipaakacitta, the fruit produced by past kamma. ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Ah, ok. But what about all the rest you mentioned? ------------------------------------------------------ Birth as a human is the fruit of kusala kamma. We are lucky to be born as a human so that we can hear the Dhamma. Birth in a hell plane is the fruit of akusala kamma, so is animal birth. Do you find all this acceptable? ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Yes, of course. The conditions of rebirth are a critical example of kammic fruition. But still, it is just one case. An important example, but only an example. ------------------------------------------------------ As for me, I would like to go step by step in short posts, long posts are very heavy and tiring. ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: But so far, Nina, the only definition provided for 'kamma vipaka' is "the fruit of kamma that has ripened." That is so vague as to be of little use, Nina. It is pretty much "just words". Should this not at least be tightened up to "Any mind state that is the ripened fruit of kamma"? And if that is okay so far, still more needs to be said. In particular, are there mind states that arise with kamma as condition that are NOT "the ripened fruit of kamma?" And if yes, what is the difference between merely having kamma as condition and being the ripened fruit of kamma? To be the vipaka of a given instance of kamma (intention/intentional action), must it be a *direct* resultant and not conditionally "further down the line"? If yes, that would explain a lot! In that case, one could argue that volition doesn't have thinking as it's ripened fruit, because the thinking is a derivative consequence, and not a direct one. In any case, SOMETHING more needs to be said. ------------------------------------------------------ If you would rather not, it is O.K. too. But I think it is essential to have a basic understanding of what kamma is and what vipaka. ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, me too. Terms have to be clarified so that conversations don't become meaningless. ---------------------------------------------------- Nina. ========================= With metta, Howard #81830 From: "shennieca" Date: Sun Jan 27, 2008 12:33 pm Subject: Re: Levels of Understanding shennieca Hi Tep, (all), What is understanding? I think understanding means knowledge/insight/wisdom of 'Samudaya and Nirodha' of sufferings. If we are still suffering, it means that we don't 'understand' yet. If we are suffering less than we used to, I think it means that we understand a bit than before (I hope). Have you met anyone who said that they have really understood? ;-)) Just kidding! With mettaa & respect, Elaine #81831 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jan 27, 2008 7:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Are thoughts vipaka? upasaka_howard In a message dated 1/27/2008 3:09:01 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, shennieca@... writes: Hi Howard, Phil, DC, Tep, (all), I found an article about 'Vipaka Citta'. It says: Kamma is generally explained as Cetana (Volition) 'Cetanahan BhikkaveKamman Vadami.' In Abhidhamma, Buddha has stated that Cetana is a Universal Mental Factor (Sabha Citta Sadarana Cetasika) present in all 89 types of thoughts or Citta, but Kamma is formed only in 12 Akusala (Unwholesome) and 17 Kusala (Wholesome) Citta. Vipaka citta (Resultants) and Kiriya (Functional) Citta do not generate Kamma although Cetana is present in them. /endquote From: http://72.14.205.104/search? q=cache:9cBDomMw8UMJ:www.lakehouse.lk/budusarana/2004/05/11/Budu13.pdf +vipaka+citta&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=8&gl=ca ----- It says, 'thoughts or citta' - which means that all thoughts are Cittas. 'Thoughts' is a very general term or an umbrella term but Cittas have many categories, (which cannot be proven by puthujjanas). These Citta categories are accepted with 'belief or blind-faith'. That's why we can never win an argument with Abhidhammikas because all they do is show you the book and point it to you and say, 'there, there it says here in the book..... (off-topic). ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: LOL! Actually, I have little interest in winning an argument but it getting at the truth by careful examination, reason, and, most especially, comparison with direct experience. The blind-faith approach is just a time-waster! ------------------------------------------------------------- If some Cittas are vipaka and some cittas are Not vipaka, then we can say, "some thoughts are vipaka and some thoughts are Not vipaka", it all depends on what we are thinking about. Does it make sense? ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: It does to me. -------------------------------------------------------- --- Furthermore, I see a discrepancy in the logic. Cetana is Kamma, Cetana is also a "Universal Mental Factor" in ALL 89 cittas, BUT Kamma is formed in only 12 Akusala and 17 Kusala Citta. It means that some Cetana do not produce Kamma but Buddha said Cetana IS Kamma! ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, I think he said that kamma is cetana. (But not all cetana need be kamma.) ------------------------------------------------------------ Or did the Buddha say, "some cetana are kamma and some cetana are Not Kamma? ------------------------------------------------------------ Howard: I think that is implied in the suttas, and is made explicit in the Abhidhamma. --------------------------------------------------------------- 12 + 17 = 29, so the other 60 cittas do not produce Kamma eventhough they have Cetana in them. Why?? Why is Kamma not present in the other 60 cittas? Do you think there is a discrepancy between the Sutta and the Abhidhamma? ------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I'm not sure there is on this issue, but I don't know enough Abhidhamma to make a proper judgement. ------------------------------------------------------------- With mettaa, Elaine ============================= With metta, Howard #81832 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Jan 27, 2008 1:24 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Lessons in Detachment, Ch 5, no 2. scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, Thanks for the discussion, I appreciate it: Sarah: "Got it and yes....only ever dhammas in play, no matter what illusions there may be to the contrary..." S: "...because the viriya is not balanced - there's an over-striving as a result of silabbataparamasa, only eradicated by the sotapanna..." Scott: In Atthaasalinii (p.159): "Another view is that energy has exerting as its characteristic, strengthening the co-existent states as function, and opposition to giving away as manifestation. It has been said: 'He being agitated, makes a rational effort', hence it has agitation, or the basic condition of making energy as proximate cause. Right Energy should be regarded as the root of all attainments." Scott: The 'overstriving' might easily seem as if it is being directed by a self, by one's will, and might easily be expressed in terms of the 'Deliberate Practise' school. I find it rather sobering to consider the phrase: 'He being agitated makes rational effort'. This suggests to me that it is a great possibility that agitation, not Right Energy, could be supporting and strengthening co-existent states. Regarding 'balance', PTS PED gives: "Avikkhepa [a + vikkhepa] calmness, balance, equanimity..." Dhammasa"nga.ni gives this as cittass'ekaggataa, hence Right Concentration serves a balancing function for the moment of consciousness in which Right Energy is arising. Other than that, I'd say that it is perilously easy to mistake wrong energy, combined with wrong concentration, as something Fantastic. Corrections and redirection of thinking welcome, Sarah. I'm watching the discussion between Nina and Larry with interest, by the way, since there seems to be a very precise attempt to look into the ways in which that which appears to the 'person' might be understood in terms of a succession of dhammas which would appear to be 'practise'. Without knowing what it is that is unfolding, there is a great likelihood of being misled by experience. Sincerely, Scott. #81833 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jan 27, 2008 1:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Levels of Understanding dhammanusara Dear Nina, - Only a few living Buddhists I know are really interested in the Patisambhidamagga. Thus when you genuinely and consistently show interest in the book, it makes me happy. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Tep, > I am always so glad when you quote the Patis. I know you have studied > it and are still stydying. > Thank you. Later on I shall read your post. > Nina T: Yes, I have been studying the Patis. for over a decade now (in both Thai and English). Yet, it still is very difficult. I look forward to the discussion when you are ready. Thank you very much . Tep === #81834 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Jan 27, 2008 1:43 pm Subject: Re: My recent meditation experiences. Thinking regarding slowing down of mind. scottduncan2 Dear Alex, Thanks for the reply: A: "As Buddha has said: Please outside of 5 strings of sensuality is to be recommended, to be developed, to bemade much off. The bliss is due to temporary shutting off sensuality and unwholesome mental states. It helps me to KNOW, SEE AND FEEL that strings of sensuality are PAINFUL, like a rope around a neck." Scott: You are, then, by way of your post, announcing that you achieve jhaana within five minutes unless you are feeling poorly physically. Is there a reason for this announcement? How do you know that this is jhaana? A: "Yes, this burning state is to be seeked. However it is a temporary step towards the 4th (Ecstasy) Jhana that Metta leads (according to a sutta pg. 1607 CDB by BB)." Scott: This seems to speak to what I'm discussing with Sarah - energy and concentration in balance. The 'timely' development of the enlightenment factor of tranquility is being discussed in the section of the sutta you reference (SN 53(3) Fire). In the prior section it is suggested that it can be untimely to develop the enlightenment factors of discrimination, energy, and rapture, when the mind 'becomes excited'. How do you know, when the mind is excited, that it is timely or untimely to develop certain dhammas? Don't you think that there can be rapture arising due to the bliss of clinging to sensuality? Consider orgasm, for a mundane example. A: "Samadhi facility must be developed to a certain degree to break through, and to see 5 aggregates as painful, alien, dart, not self." Scott: We see this differently as you seem to take 'samadhi' as a continuous state, choosing to disregard the whole underlying momentaneity of dhammas. Cittass' ekaggataa steadies the citta which, influenced by the presence of pa~n~naa, penetrates dhammas. Sincerely, Scott. #81835 From: "Alex" Date: Sun Jan 27, 2008 1:47 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Lessons in Detachment, Ch 5, no 2. truth_aerator Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > .... > >A: A sotapanna has only eradicated 3 out of 10 fetters: > > > > 1) belief in one's body as a self (Pali: > > sakkāya-diṭṭhi) > > 2) doubt or uncertainty, especially about the teachings > > (vicikicchā) > > 3) attachment to rites and rituals (sīlabbata- parāmāso) > ... > S: Nina, as Alex says a sotapanna cannot have even the most subtle of > silabbataparamasa, such as a subtle trying to have more sati. What is silabbataparamasa? Trying to have more Sati? Anyhow a sotapanna STILL has conceit, restlessness, lust , anger, subtle Avijja, desire for Rupa/Arupa worlds or Jhanas. Even ANAGAMIN has feeling of "I AM", nothing to say of a Sotapanna. Sarakani failed in training and was given to drink (either before he became a Sotapanna or even WHEN he was a Sotapanna). A sotapanna simply doesn't recognize on an intellectual level anything as a Self or Belonging to self. A sotapanna on the contrary, will soon enough, (<7 lives) STRIVE VERY HARD to reach Nibbana. Strive very hard and DEVELOP the Noble 8 fold path along with 7 factors of Awakening. Only an Arahant or certain misled Pujjanas do not believe in results of actions (kamma). Those who teach no actions, no efforts, no beings, are following a heretical teaching and that wrong view will make 'em suffer for a long time. The worst criminals can use that as an excuse. Never an Ariya. Lots of Metta, Alex #81836 From: "Alex" Date: Sun Jan 27, 2008 2:05 pm Subject: Re: My recent meditation experiences. Thinking regarding slowing down of mind. truth_aerator Dear Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Dear Alex, > > Thanks for the reply: > > A: "As Buddha has said: Please outside of 5 strings of sensuality is > to be recommended, to be developed, to bemade much off. The bliss is > due to temporary shutting off sensuality and unwholesome mental > states. It helps me to KNOW, SEE AND FEEL that strings of sensuality > are PAINFUL, like a rope around a neck." > > Scott: You are, then, by way of your post, announcing that you achieve > jhaana within five minutes unless you are feeling poorly physically. > Is there a reason for this announcement? How do you know that this is > jhaana? >>>> First of all, did I use those words? You are saying them. I've just said few descriptions of the state, and the state which is important to reach and set a goal to. > >>>> > Scott: This seems to speak to what I'm discussing with Sarah - energy and concentration in balance. The 'timely' development of the > enlightenment factor of tranquility is being discussed in the section of the sutta you reference (SN 53(3) Fire). In the prior section it is suggested that it can be untimely to develop the enlightenment factors of discrimination, energy, and rapture, when the mind 'becomes excited'. >>>> The mind isn't excited very often. When it starts thinking about impermanence, suffering and not self in the 5 Khandas - then there is simply not much to be truly excited in them. Even temporary attainments. The human world is gray and crappy... I don't want to fall this low in Kama Loka ever again, but for this ENERGY must be present (as well as other equally important factors of Awakening). > How do you know, when the mind is excited, that it is timely or > untimely to develop certain dhammas? Don't you think that there can > be rapture arising due to the bliss of clinging to sensuality? > Consider orgasm, for a mundane example. >>>> Orgasm is coarse and disgusting. Yuck! I was talking about subtle bliss. Furthermore Orgasm isn't truly happy anyways. > A: "Samadhi facility must be developed to a certain degree to break > through, and to see 5 aggregates as painful, alien, dart, not self." > > Scott: We see this differently as you seem to take 'samadhi' as a > continuous state, choosing to disregard the whole underlying > momentaneity of dhammas. Cittass' ekaggataa steadies the citta which, > influenced by the presence of pa~n~naa, penetrates dhammas. > > Sincerely, > > Scott. >> You again seem to be guessing. Samadhi is NOT a continuous state, various states still arise there! Just see mn111 and suttas like that. When the mind is well 'fed' with Samadhi, then it can be bold and courageous enough to see some scary things (anicca-dukkha-anatta). Lots of Metta, Alex #81837 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jan 27, 2008 2:10 pm Subject: Re: Levels of Understanding dhammanusara Dear Elaine (and others), - You wisely wrote: > Elaine: > What is understanding? I think understanding means > knowledge/insight/wisdom of 'Samudaya and Nirodha' of sufferings. If we are still suffering, it means that we don't 'understand' yet. > T: I think understanding of the FNT means as follows. In one who possesses the path investigation or noting or taking notice that arises "contingent upon" dukkha is one kind of understanding (pa~n~na). Any view of such a person is right view and it is called knowledge of suffering. We may repeat the above for knowledge of the origin, knowledge of the cessation, and knowledge of the path for the cessation of dukkha. They all are "understanding". > E: > If we are suffering less than we used to, I think it means that we > understand a bit than before (I hope). > > Have you met anyone who said that they have really understood? ;-)) > Just kidding! > > T: Thank you for raising a good point: does knowledge of suffering lead to lessening of dukkha ? I think some asavas are cut off. Rebirth in lower realms are also cut off. That should mean lesser suffering, I guess. Tep === #81838 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jan 27, 2008 9:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: My recent meditation experiences. Thinking regarding slowing do... upasaka_howard Hi, Alex - In a message dated 1/27/2008 3:11:33 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, truth_aerator@... writes: Yes, this burning state is to be seeked. However it is a temporary step towards the 4th (Ecstasy) Jhana that Metta leads (according to a sutta pg. 1607 CDB by BB). ================================== Just a suggestion: I think that using 'ecstasy' to describe jhanas, especially the 4th, is misleading. It is very fitting for the 1st, slightly less so for the second, and, as I have been led to understand, far less so for the 3rd and most especially for the equanimous, pristine 4th jhana. With metta, Howard #81839 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jan 27, 2008 9:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Are thoughts vipaka? upasaka_howard Hi, Elaine - Please excuse my forgetting the salutation in the following: In a message dated 1/27/2008 3:42:11 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@... writes: In a message dated 1/27/2008 3:09:01 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, shennieca@... writes: ============================ With metta, Howard #81840 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Jan 27, 2008 3:22 pm Subject: Re: My recent meditation experiences. Thinking regarding slowing down of mind. scottduncan2 Dear Alex, Thanks for the reply: A: "First of all, did I use those words? You are saying them. I've just said few descriptions of the state, and the state which is important to reach and set a goal to." Scott: If not jhaana, what then? This is what I am asking you to specify. My assumption is that you actually don't know what it is that you are experiencing, except for some impressionistic sensory impression. Since you are announcing your experience, and saying (or are you?) that it is not jhaana, then what is it? What is this state of bliss to which you refer? Why seek it? A: "The mind isn't excited very often..." Scott: The term in question is 'uddhata'. Here is the Paa.li from the sutta: "...Yasmi.m bhikkhave, samaye uddhata.m citta.m hoti akaalo tasmi.m samaye dhammavicayasambojjha"ngassa bhaavanaaya. Akaalo viriyasambojjha"gassa bhaavanaaya. Akaalo piitisambojjha"ngassa bhaavanaaya..." The PTS PED gives: "Uddhata...2. unbalanced, disturbed, agitated, shaken..." I'd say that this is a fairly common state of mind for such as we, wouldn't you agree? A: "Orgasm is coarse and disgusting. Yuck! I was talking about subtle bliss. Furthermore Orgasm isn't truly happy anyways." Scott: Can you differentiate coarse from subtle bliss? A: "You again seem to be guessing. Samadhi is NOT a continuous state, various states still arise there! Just see mn111 and suttas like that. When the mind is well 'fed' with Samadhi, then it can be bold and courageous enough to see some scary things (anicca-dukkha-anatta)." Scott: I'm guessing since you are being coy. You haven't explained the state you announced. Are you now saying that 'samadhi' is a place? How can 'various states still arise there'? Concentration is a mental factor and can arise conascent to other states with citta, moment by moment. 'Bold and courageous mind' - what does this mean? Sincerely, Scott. #81841 From: "m. nease" Date: Sun Jan 27, 2008 4:12 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Lessons in Detachment, Ch 5, no 2. m_nease Hi Scott (and Sarah), Scott Duncan wrote: > "Another view is that energy has exerting as its characteristic, > strengthening the co-existent states as function, and opposition to > giving away as manifestation. It has been said: 'He being agitated, > makes a rational effort', hence it has agitation, or the basic > condition of making energy as proximate cause. Right Energy should be > regarded as the root of all attainments." >... I find it rather sobering to > consider the phrase: 'He being agitated makes rational effort'. This > suggests to me that it is a great possibility that agitation, not > Right Energy, could be supporting and strengthening co-existent states. No kidding--I suspect that 'agitated' here comes from 'phanditvaa' (or some other form) rather than from 'uddhacca' which is often translated as 'agitation'--but the latter is (if memory serves) a factor of all(?) unwholesome states (corrections welcome) and so unlikely to be a precursor of right anything. mike #81842 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Jan 27, 2008 4:19 pm Subject: Re: Reply to James' second posting about 'monk's unbecoming behaviour' buddhatrue Hi Ven. Pannabahulo, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "pannabahulo" wrote: > But please detach yourself from the view that monks should only be > teachers. That's a difficult one to wrap my mind around. I will think about it. Metta, James #81843 From: "Alex" Date: Sun Jan 27, 2008 4:20 pm Subject: Re: My recent meditation experiences. Thinking regarding slowing down of mind. truth_aerator Dear Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > Scott: If not jhaana, what then? This is what I am asking you to > specify. >>> It was a good state, but there is further things to be done such as letting go of Vitaka Vicara, Piti, Sukha for longer periods of time. >>>> My assumption is that you actually don't know what it is > that you are experiencing, except for some impressionistic sensory > impression. >>>> Actually I have certain suspicions. But the fact remains, more is to be done! Done rather then speculated about. >>> are you?) that it is not jhaana, then what is it? >>> Did I say so? I don't want to turn this into a conceited ego game. I have enough of defilements as it is. Can we discuss the core rather than getting stuck on the labels? >>>> What is this state of bliss to which you refer? Why seek it? >>>> You can figure out the first, the second I have answered. It helps one to see anicca-DUKKHA and anatta. > > A: "The mind isn't excited very often..." > > Scott: The term in question is 'uddhata'. Here is the Paa.li from the > sutta: > > "...Yasmi.m bhikkhave, samaye uddhata.m citta.m hoti akaalo tasmi.m > samaye dhammavicayasambojjha"ngassa bhaavanaaya. Akaalo > viriyasambojjha"gassa bhaavanaaya. Akaalo piitisambojjha"ngassa > bhaavanaaya..." > > The PTS PED gives: "Uddhata...2. unbalanced, disturbed, agitated, > shaken..." I'd say that this is a fairly common state of mind for > such as we, wouldn't you agree? >>>>> Sometimes I am agited when I have something to do and don't have time to read or to meditate. What do you mean by unbalanced state of mind? Unbalanced in what way? > A: "Orgasm is coarse and disgusting. Yuck! I was talking about subtle > bliss. Furthermore Orgasm isn't truly happy anyways." > > Scott: Can you differentiate coarse from subtle bliss? >>>> One is heavy another is light. The coarse bliss has more stress in it than the subtle bliss (which has subtle stress in it). > A: "You again seem to be guessing. Samadhi is NOT a continuous state, > various states still arise there! Just see mn111 and suttas like that. > When the mind is well 'fed' with Samadhi, then it can be bold and > courageous enough to see some scary things (anicca-dukkha-anatta)." > > Scott: I'm guessing since you are being coy. You haven't explained > the state you announced. >>>> I don't want to brag or anything like that. Lets talk about contents rather than the labels. >>> Are you now saying that 'samadhi' is a place? How can 'various states still arise there'? Concentration is > a mental factor and can arise conascent to other states with citta, > moment by moment. 'Bold and courageous mind' - what does this mean? >>>> By state I meant a process, obviously. It is a dependently originated process of certain qualities. States of consciousness arise moment by moment, sure. These states aren't States of America, they are states of mental process. Bold and courageous mind is freed from 5 Hindrances and can see the selflessness of 5 aggregates. Just like a hungry guy may be angry and unreasonable and not capable of being taught scary things - same here with ordinary mind. But through deep stages of Bhavana (Samma-Samadhi) it can be trained to be read to observe. Observe the things it kept overlooking and fooling itself. Anyhow the post was originally about Mind States slowing down in meditation. I provided my details of meditation and ideas regarding How/Why mind (or perhaps the flow of contents) can be slowed down during meditation. Considering your replies, maybe I should have cut out my experiences and left just the last part, extended the theory part, etc etc. Lots of Metta, Alex #81844 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Jan 27, 2008 4:21 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vis. CH XVIII, 23 lbidd2 Hi Sarah and Nina, Sarah: "If there's any idea of selection and choosing of an object, we misunderstand the path of satipatthana." Larry: That is your idea and it has its merits, but I don't see it in this chapter or anywhere in the Visuddhimagga or even the sutta pitaka. Do you? Larry #81845 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Jan 27, 2008 4:30 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Outline of Purification of View V.4 lbidd2 Hi Sarah, Thanks for the further correction on the subtle rupas. I'm not exactly sure what the 16 subtle rupas are, but I suspect most of them are "non-concrete" matter such as space, intimation, etc. which are not regarded as ultimate dhammas. I think the only subtle rupas we are concerned with here are the concretely produced subtle rupas: both sexes, heart base, life faculty, and nutriment, which are regarded as ultimate dhammas. Larry #81846 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Sun Jan 27, 2008 4:32 pm Subject: Re: THE MIND OF NOWNESS nichiconn Dear colette and Alex, My apologies for not jumping right into the sandbox but my G-string was already too scratchy and I had the DEA howling... or as Mom sang in her latest creation to me this morning: "Well I picked up the fiddle and I put down the gun and now I've got everybody on the run". LOL - I'd been thinking she was being just bit a too generous with her frequent comments/encouragement the last couple of days about how much better I've gotten since I started in a couple of weeks ago! About all I'm willing to say is it finally seems I'm a bit more relaxed about it now and not so prone to ending up feeling like I've been using the little ol' bow and violin for some heavy duty weight training. For sure now, in spite of her insisting it doesn't bother her, I'll still be putting clothes pins on the bridge to mute the thing or playing with the unrosined bow for awhile yet when she's trying to sleep. Got some used beginner's books yesterday and I'm back to sliding the bow up out of the highway and out across the fingerboard or finding I've lost my place in the book when I go back to it from staring down the strings... like my eyes are so commanding and can keep it all under control. Ha! Even this new prescription I've got can't help that. You'd think a 50 year old would have more say over where a hairy little stick in her hands lands up or what sound might be heard next. I'll leave you to imagine the wicked things I've done to Mary's poor little lamb, but be kind and try to recall that it's all just a classic study in abhidhamma when I set out to play a simple little song that ends up sounding like it should've been called Jingle Hells. To my ears, though, it's still better than some of the single string harping I've been reading here lately... my other (better left unsaid?) excuse for not wanting to play along. best wishes, connie #81847 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Jan 27, 2008 4:36 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Puggalavada and Theravada Buddhist teachings re: abhidhamma buddhatrue Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > What I *did* find silly in this regard was the article's identifying the > astral body with the Puggalavadins' "person." For one thing, the astral > body, according to the Buddha, is a mind-made body, which is something *created* > by the meditator (or subconsciously in spontaneous projection). Secondly, how > in the world does any sort of body constitute a "person" that is an agent, > actor, and recipient of kamma? Okay, I see what you mean. Here is what the article states: "The Puggalavadins teach that the puggala arises simultaneously with the five aggregates, is not within or outside them, but forms a structural unit with them. It is the astral body, secondary body or bio-plasamabody of modern Para-psychological research. Its existence and verifiability has been vindicated by 150 years of Psychical Research in the West in which very eminent scientists have taken part. It is the mano-kaya or the Suttas." The article doesn't state anymore and this isn't really much to go on. Frankly, I'm not sure what it means. I'm not sure if it means that the mind-made body "is" the person (which I would not agree with), or if the mind-mind body is a reflection of the structural unit of khandas known as a "person" (which is a possibility). This part is somewhat strange, but I don't really find it "silly", just not fully understandable. Metta, James #81848 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Jan 27, 2008 4:40 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Outline of Purification of View V.4 lbidd2 Hi Sarah, Sarah: "It just so happens that I'll be going away (without texts or my computer) just when Larry gives me the command to 'lead' the next chapter." Larry: Ken is certainly welcome to 'lead' any discussions but what you agreed to do is outline the chapter in a rather detailed way and be available to answer any questions or respond to comments if necessary, in a _timely_ manner. I wasn't going to ask anyone else to do this until I say how you did. So, if you have to leave, we can wait until you are ready. Larry #81849 From: "m. nease" Date: Sun Jan 27, 2008 4:52 pm Subject: p.s. m_nease p.s. Just as an afterthought, it occurs to me that the hindrances--including agitation--are hindrances to concentration, not to insight (or mindfulness? not sure). Scott Duncan wrote: > Scott: The 'overstriving' might easily seem as if it is being directed > by a self, by one's will, and might easily be expressed in terms of > the 'Deliberate Practise' school. I find it rather sobering to > consider the phrase: 'He being agitated makes rational effort'. This > suggests to me that it is a great possibility that agitation, not > Right Energy, could be supporting and strengthening co-existent states. #81850 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Jan 27, 2008 4:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Outline of Purification of View V.1 lbidd2 Hi Sarah, Sarah: "I don't think that attempts to 'discern all 81 kinds of mundane consciousness'.....or 'go looking for some of them' is what is meant by right understanding of dhammas. This sounds more like a kind of silabbataparamasa that I was just discussing in another thread. As soon as we have any idea of 'go looking for' any dhammas, it's not awareness of what has arisen already." Larry: Buddhaghosa doesn't say to "go looking for a dhamma", that is true. But he does say it is necessary to discern all 81 kinds of consciousness as well as all 18 concretely produced rupas and the 7 universal cetasikas. He also says if he whose path is only insight is having trouble with the rupas, to not give up, he should "again and again give attention to materiality only". That you disagree is fine, most people do. How many dhammas do you think are necessary to discern for this insight? Larry #81851 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Jan 27, 2008 4:56 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Puggalavada and Theravada Buddhist teachings re: abhidhamma buddhatrue Hi Howard, FYI, there is much more material on the Internet to be found if one changes the spelling of Puggalavada to Pudgalavada. Here is a quite lengthy article on the subject (which I haven't finished reading yet): http://www.iep.utm.edu/p/pudgalav.htm Metta, James #81852 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Jan 27, 2008 5:03 pm Subject: Re: My recent meditation experiences. Thinking regarding slowing down of mind. scottduncan2 Dear Alex, Thanks for the reply: A: "It was a good state, but there is further things to be done such as letting go of Vitaka Vicara, Piti, Sukha for longer periods of time." Scott: Again, without actually saying so, you are implying, in mentioning these mental factors (you've not mentioned samadhi), that the state was the first jhaana, are you not? How do you know when these factors have arisen? When do you know that they have been 'let go of'? A: "Actually I have certain suspicions. But the fact remains, more is to be done! Done rather then speculated about." Scott: You announced your state, without clarifying, and hence the need at least for clarification. I'd suggest that you might be speculating about what it is. A: "Did I say so? I don't want to turn this into a conceited ego game. I have enough of defilements as it is. Can we discuss the core rather than getting stuck on the labels?" Scott: I'm trying to pin you down to 'the core'. Jhaana or not? And why seek it if it is impossible to know the states of which it is constituted? A: "You can figure out the first, the second I have answered. It helps one to see anicca-DUKKHA and anatta." Scott: No, Alex. You made the post, why should I have to figure it out. Either you know what it is or you don't. If you don't, why announce it? The PTS PED gives: I'd say that this is a fairly common state of mind for > > such as we, wouldn't you agree? > >>>>> > A: "Sometimes I am agited when I have something to do and don't have time to read or to meditate." Scott: I'm referring to the mind - citta - and citta conascent with certain mental factors arising in the moment which is agitated. A: "What do you mean by unbalanced state of mind? Unbalanced in what way?" Scott: I was only giving the dictionary definition of 'uddhata' ("Uddhata...2. unbalanced, disturbed, agitated, shaken..."), which was the term used in the sutta you provided. To me, the term 'unbalance' refers to the various mental factors in place during a given moment of consciousness. Balance or lack of balance seems to be a function of these particular dhammas, their characteristics, and the 'tone' they give to the moment of consciousness in question. A: "One is heavy another is light. The coarse bliss has more stress in it than the subtle bliss (which has subtle stress in it)." Scott: I meant are you able to distinguish these differences in the moment while attempting to 'meditate'? I didn't ask for your intellectual description. A: "I don't want to brag or anything like that. Lets talk about contents rather than the labels." Scott: In announcing that you rapidly attain a given state, you are, in my opinion, as much as bragging. You then seem unable to describe the contents of this state, nor label its constituents. A: "By state I meant a process, obviously. It is a dependently originated process of certain qualities. States of consciousness arise moment by moment, sure. These states aren't States of America, they are states of mental process." Scott: This is an Abhidhamma distinction, Alex. There are no 'continuous' states, as far as I know, only contiguous moments which contain the same sort of mental factors which arose in the prior moment - not the same factors since these have fallen away. A: "Bold and courageous mind is freed from 5 Hindrances and can see the selflessness of 5 aggregates. Just like a hungry guy may be angry and unreasonable and not capable of being taught scary things - same here with ordinary mind. But through deep stages of Bhavana (Samma-Samadhi) it can be trained to be read to observe. Observe the things it kept overlooking and fooling itself." Scott: Is this your own definition? I thought that a moment of consciousness 'freed from the 5 Hindrances' was jhaana. I thought that the penetration of dhammas was a characteristic of pa~n~naa. The mental factor of ignorance has as a function of 'overlooking and fooling'. A: "Anyhow the post was originally about Mind States slowing down in meditation. I provided my details of meditation and ideas regarding How/Why mind (or perhaps the flow of contents) can be slowed down during meditation. Considering your replies, maybe I should have cut out my experiences and left just the last part, extended the theory part, etc etc." Scott: No, you can post what you wish, of course. I was merely asking you to pin yourself down, suggesting that you might have had an experience but that you have no actual idea what it was and hence can speculate all you want about whether anything slowed down or not. Sincerely, Scott. #81853 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Jan 27, 2008 5:23 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Outline of Purification of View V.7 lbidd2 Hi Nina, Nina: "I am glad there was so much about eternity belief and annihilation belief since this also comes up in our Vis. Ch XVII." Larry: I never realized before that clinging to becoming and annihilation is the source of self view, or that simple recognition of nama and rupa extinguishes that clinging. This transitions into the next purification, Purification by Overcoming Doubt, which is concerned with "cause and condition". Larry #81854 From: "shennieca" Date: Sun Jan 27, 2008 5:45 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Are thoughts vipaka? shennieca Hi Howard, (Phil, DC, Tep, all), It's Ok about the salutation. Thanks for your e-m. :-)) I'd like to go back to the first question that Phil asked, "Are thoughts Vipaka?" Since Vipaka means ripening. The paraphrased question would be, "Are thoughts the results of ripening of kamma?" I found an article about thoughts (17 thought-moments) by Sayadaw U Silananda. -------------------- There are 17 thought moments or cittas when an object is presented to the mind through one of the five sense doors. (0,1,2,3) Life continuum (bhavanga) a type of under-current or inactive consciousness (4) A series of thought consciousness sense-door adverting, e.g. seeing, hearing, etc. (5) Seeing (6) Receiving (7) Investigating (8) Determining (9-15) Apperception or Impulsion (7 moments of Javana) (16-17) Registering (0) Bhavanga again The thought-moments in which kamma is performed are 7 moments of apperception or impulsion, known in Pali as Javana. In these moments, one experiences the object fully and they are the moments when one creates Kamma. In the first of these 7 thought moments, one acquires Kamma which, getting favourable circumstances, gives results in the present life. In 7th and last thought moment of Javana, one acquires Kamma which gives results in the next life. In the 5 thought moments in between, one acquires Kamma which gives results in the lives after the present and next life, that is, from the third lifetime onward reckoning the present life as the first. If the 1st Javana does not give results in this life, it becomes defunct. If the 7th Javana does not give results in the next life, it becomes defunct. *But the 5 Javanas between the 1st and 7th can give results through every lifetime until one dies as an Arahant*. Therefore the 7 moments of Javana - when you do Kusala or Akusala kamma - are the 35 most important moments in the thought process of the Abhidhamma. In those moments, how we react to the object (either in a wholesome or unwholesome manner), produces results which we will have to be responsible for in the future. /end quote -------------------------- The question is, do these "results or ripening" manifest themselves in the form of thought-moments like this? Imo, I think they do. I think `thoughts' are the ripening of some past kamma too. If a person likes to think of the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha, wholesome stuffs, it is the result of past kamma. If a person likes to think of killing, stealing, unwholesome stuffs, etc.. it is also a result of past kamma. No? Vipaka Sutta says: "The drinking of fermented & distilled liquors — when indulged in, developed, & pursued — is something that leads to hell, leads to rebirth as a common animal, leads to the realm of the hungry shades. The slightest of all the results coming from drinking fermented & distilled liquors is that, when one becomes a human being, it leads to mental derangement." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an08/an08.040.than.html I think `mental derangement is some kind of messed up thinking', so "thinking" is a vipaka. Isn't it? Sorry for the long post. With mettaa, Elaine #81855 From: "Alex" Date: Sun Jan 27, 2008 6:20 pm Subject: Buddha refutes no self-agency, no other-agency, no initiative! truth_aerator Hello all, --- The Gradual Sayings Vol.3 Book of 6s page 237 text iii, 355, VI, IV, 38 viii (38). Self-acting. "This Master Gotama, is my avowal, this my view: There is no self- agency; no other-agency' Never, brahmin, have I seen or heard of such an avowal, such a view, Pray, how can one step onwards, how can one step back, yet say: There is no self-agency; there is no other-agency? "What think you, brahman, is there such a thing as initiative? 'Yes, sir." 'That being so, are men known to initiate?' 'Yes, sir' 'Well brahman, since there is initiative and men are known to initiate, this is among men the self-agency, this is other agency. What think you, brahmanm is there such a thing as stepping away... stepping forth... halting... standing... and stepping toward anything?' 'Yes, sir' 'That being so, are men known to do all these things?' 'Yes, sir." 'Well, brahmin, since there are such a thing as stepping away, stepping forth and the rest, and men are known to do these things, this is among men the self-agency, this is other-agency. Never, brahman, have I seen or heard of such an avowal, such a view as yours. Pray, how can one step onwards, step back and say: There is no self-agency, there is no other-agency? 'This indeed is wonderful, Master Gotama...! And henceforth, till life ends, I will go to Master Gotama for help.' --- WOW!!!!!!! Here the Buddha refuted a certain viewpoint, quite strongly... Lots of Metta, Alex #81856 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jan 27, 2008 6:20 pm Subject: Re: Are thoughts vipaka? dhammanusara Hi Elaine and all, - We all know that there are bodily action, verbal action, and mental action. Mental actions are thoughts with associated cetasikas like manasikara, phassa, cetana and so on. Since cetana is kamma (action) then it makes sense to me to say thoughts are the results of (ripening) kamma. That is my one-Yen-worth Abhidhamma comment. Talking about the seventeen thought moments puts you right at the heart of the Abhidhamma. But it is good to know the following : "Therefore the 7 moments of Javana - when you do Kusala or Akusala kamma - are the 35 most important moments in the thought process of the Abhidhamma. In those moments, how we react to the object (either in a wholesome or unwholesome manner), produces results which we will have to be responsible for in the future". T: The important question to ask is : what can we do, if possible, to avoid akusala and nurture kusala cittas in those moments (is there enough time) ? I do not believe in "do nothing". >E: Sorry for the long post. T: Your quote is only half as long as Alex's quotes. ;-)) Thank you, Elaine. Tep === #81857 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jan 27, 2008 3:06 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Puggalavada and Theravada Buddhist teachings re: abhidhamma upasaka_howard Hi, James - In a message dated 1/27/2008 7:56:56 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@... writes: Hi Howard, FYI, there is much more material on the Internet to be found if one changes the spelling of Puggalavada to Pudgalavada. Here is a quite lengthy article on the subject (which I haven't finished reading yet): http://www.iep.utm.edu/p/pudgalav.htm Metta, James ================================ Thanks, I'll look it over. (I generally avoid sites with Sanskrit terms that are dealing with specifically Theravadin matters, because they are normally involving a Mahayanist take.) With metta, Howard #81858 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jan 27, 2008 3:24 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Are thoughts vipaka? upasaka_howard Hi, Elaine - In a message dated 1/27/2008 8:45:51 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, shennieca@... writes: Hi Howard, (Phil, DC, Tep, all), It's Ok about the salutation. Thanks for your e-m. :-)) I'd like to go back to the first question that Phil asked, "Are thoughts Vipaka?" Since Vipaka means ripening. The paraphrased question would be, "Are thoughts the results of ripening of kamma?" I found an article about thoughts (17 thought-moments) by Sayadaw U Silananda. -------------------- There are 17 thought moments or cittas when an object is presented to the mind through one of the five sense doors. (0,1,2,3) Life continuum (bhavanga) a type of under-current or inactive consciousness (4) A series of thought consciousness sense-door adverting, e.g. seeing, hearing, etc. (5) Seeing (6) Receiving (7) Investigating (8) Determining (9-15) Apperception or Impulsion (7 moments of Javana) (16-17) Registering (0) Bhavanga again The thought-moments in which kamma is performed are 7 moments of apperception or impulsion, known in Pali as Javana. In these moments, one experiences the object fully and they are the moments when one creates Kamma. In the first of these 7 thought moments, one acquires Kamma which, getting favourable circumstances, gives results in the present life. In 7th and last thought moment of Javana, one acquires Kamma which gives results in the next life. In the 5 thought moments in between, one acquires Kamma which gives results in the lives after the present and next life, that is, from the third lifetime onward reckoning the present life as the first. If the 1st Javana does not give results in this life, it becomes defunct. If the 7th Javana does not give results in the next life, it becomes defunct. *But the 5 Javanas between the 1st and 7th can give results through every lifetime until one dies as an Arahant*. Therefore the 7 moments of Javana - when you do Kusala or Akusala kamma - are the 35 most important moments in the thought process of the Abhidhamma. In those moments, how we react to the object (either in a wholesome or unwholesome manner), produces results which we will have to be responsible for in the future. /end quote ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: In the foregoing, U Silanananda, a (recently deceased) Abhidhammika *and * meditator, BTW, when speaking of "thought moments" is not specifically speaking of thinking. By 'thought moment' he means nothing more specific than "citta", as I understand it. The details on all those various sorts of cittas, BTW, is strictly commentarial, as far as I know - that is, not even occurring in the Abhidhamma Pitaka. (I do happen to find that material very interesting psychology, though.) ------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------- The question is, do these "results or ripening" manifest themselves in the form of thought-moments like this? Imo, I think they do. ------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I have no reason to believe that states that are part of thought processes are exempt from being kamma vipaka. It is, in fact, obvious to me that our volitional activities have a great impact on our thinking. ------------------------------------------------------------------ I think `thoughts' are the ripening of some past kamma too. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Howard: As do I. Why should mind-door states be exempt? ----------------------------------------------------------------- If a person likes to think of the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha, wholesome stuffs, it is the result of past kamma. If a person likes to think of killing, stealing, unwholesome stuffs, etc.. it is also a result of past kamma. No? ------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: As far as I'm concerned, yes! "Mind is the forerunner of states. Mind is chief; mind-made are they." This forerunning mind is volition, kusala or akusala. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Vipaka Sutta says: "The drinking of fermented & distilled liquors — when indulged in, developed, & pursued — is something that leads to hell, leads to rebirth as a common animal, leads to the realm of the hungry shades. The slightest of all the results coming from drinking fermented & distilled liquors is that, when one becomes a human being, it leads to mental derangement." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an08/an08.040.than.html I think `mental derangement is some kind of messed up thinking', so "thinking" is a vipaka. Isn't it? ---------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, mental derangement, I suspect, certainly includes unreason (as well as perceptual impairment and general confusion). So, yes, I would say this suggests thinking as being vipaka. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Sorry for the long post. With mettaa, Elaine ================================= With metta, Howard #81859 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jan 27, 2008 3:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddha refutes no self-agency, no other-agency, no initiative! upasaka_howard Hi, Alex - In a message dated 1/27/2008 9:20:35 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, truth_aerator@... writes: Hello all, --- The Gradual Sayings Vol.3 Book of 6s page 237 text iii, 355, VI, IV, 38 viii (38). Self-acting. "This Master Gotama, is my avowal, this my view: There is no self- agency; no other-agency' Never, brahmin, have I seen or heard of such an avowal, such a view, Pray, how can one step onwards, how can one step back, yet say: There is no self-agency; there is no other-agency? "What think you, brahman, is there such a thing as initiative? 'Yes, sir." 'That being so, are men known to initiate?' 'Yes, sir' 'Well brahman, since there is initiative and men are known to initiate, this is among men the self-agency, this is other agency. What think you, brahmanm is there such a thing as stepping away... stepping forth... halting... standing... and stepping toward anything?' 'Yes, sir' 'That being so, are men known to do all these things?' 'Yes, sir." 'Well, brahmin, since there are such a thing as stepping away, stepping forth and the rest, and men are known to do these things, this is among men the self-agency, this is other-agency. Never, brahman, have I seen or heard of such an avowal, such a view as yours. Pray, how can one step onwards, step back and say: There is no self-agency, there is no other-agency? 'This indeed is wonderful, Master Gotama...! And henceforth, till life ends, I will go to Master Gotama for help.' --- WOW!!!!!!! Here the Buddha refuted a certain viewpoint, quite strongly... Lots of Metta, Alex ====================================== Before reading your closing line, "WOW" was exactly what came to mind mind as well! This sure does seem to be a clear assertion of the reality of intentional human action and influence - VERY clear. I should think it would make some folks who say that no-control is absolute think twice about that. It certainly should give pause. I would add, to forestall reifying "the actor" that this still in no way implies that a person who acts is anything more than an aggregation of phenomena, that, in concert, do the acting - or, far better said, constitute the acting. With metta, Howard #81860 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Jan 27, 2008 12:45 pm Subject: Jhana = Soaked in Joy! bhikkhu0 Friends: Jhãna is the 1st Mental Absorption! JhÄ?na is PÄ?li: In Sanskrit = DhyÄ?na, in Chinese = ChÄ?n, in Japanese = Zen. Preliminaries: Purified Morality => Clear Conscience, innocence & the mental elation thereof. Guarding the Senses => Absence of Temptation, greed, desire, & attraction. Clear Comprehension => Acute Awareness & Absolute Mental Presence. Contentment => Calm & Stilled Satisfaction even with nothing. Joy & Happiness. Mental Factors of Entry: 1: Absence of any Urge of Desire 2: Absence of any Aversion of Ill Will 3: Absence of any Lethargy & Laziness 4: Absence of any Restlessness & Regret 5: Absence of any Doubt & Uncertainty 1: Presence of Directed Thought 2: Presence of Sustained Thought 3: Presence of Rapturous Joy 4: Presence of Pleasurable Bliss 5: Presence of Single-Pointed Focus Subjective Experience: Intense presence & awareness. Effortless, undistracted, & focused thinking. Attention anchored even at ease at any chosen object. Mind is fixed & unified. Result of chain of reasoning arguments is always reached quickly & successfully. Body is without any pain & is felt like being a feather inside a big empty silent hall. There is Joy, Bliss and Happiness mixed into Solid Calm like a Smiling Mountain! Stages: 1: Directing (adverting to sign of serenity). 2: Attaining entrance & stabilizing that. 3: Prolonging & controlling duration. 4: Emergence from absorption. 5: Reviewing (looking back on). Grades: I: Access Concentration like in neighbourhood approaching (upacÄ?ra-samÄ?dhi). II: Full Absorption Concentration fixed & anchored on object (AppanÄ?-samÄ?dhi). Techniques which can induce JhÄ?na Absorption: Awareness of Breathing (Ä€nÄ?pÄ?naSati) Basic Entirety Object (Kasina) Inner Organs & Corpses (KÄ?yagatÄ?Sati) The 4 Infinite & Divine States (MettÄ?) The 4 Formless States (Ä€ruppa) Manual: The Path of Purification: Visuddhimagga. By the Great Explainer: Buddhaghosa. 5th century AC. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.phtml?prod_id=771100 Buddha Said: Having momentarily eliminated the five mental hindrances of: Sense Desire, Ill Will, Lethargy & Laziness, Restlessness & Regret, and Doubt & Uncertainty, defiling imperfections of the mind that obstruct concentration & understanding, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, separated from disadvantageous mental states, one enters & dwells in the first JhÄ?na absorption of directed & sustained thought joined with joy & pleasure born of secluded solitude. One makes this joy & pleasure born of secluded solitude pervade, perfuse & fill the entire body so that all parts is thrilled by this joy & pleasure born of secluded solitude. Even as a clever barber or his apprentice would put soap powder in a brass basin, sprinkle it with water, gradually knead & moist it into a ball of foam soaked thoroughly everywhere inside out yet without dripping so too he pervade, perfuse & fill his entire body so that all parts is completely drenched with joy & pleasure born of secluded solitude. <....> Soaked in Joy! Friendship is the Greatest * Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka :-) .... #81861 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Jan 27, 2008 9:09 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Are thoughts vipaka? lbidd2 Hi Howard and Elaine, Here is a related question: is speech kamma or kamma result? Larry #81862 From: "shennieca" Date: Sun Jan 27, 2008 9:24 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Are thoughts vipaka? shennieca Hi Howard, Tep, Phil, all, Oh gosh, I'm stuck on this topic. lol :-)) Howard: Well, I think he said that kamma is cetana. (But not all cetana need be kamma.) Elaine: I think, if the Buddha really wanted to say, `only some cetana produce Kamma', he would have said so but he didn't. He said, 'Cetanahan BhikkaveKamman Vadami'. Therefore, I think the Buddha meant All Cetana is Kamma. When you said `kamma is cetana', it's the reverse, I think it is a false logic thingy. No? All Cetana give rise to Kamma:- meritorious Kamma, demeritorious Kamma, or imperturbable Kamma. 3 types of Kamma: 1. Punnabhi sankhara (kamma formations of merit) 2. Apunnabhi sankhara (kamma formations of demerit) 3. Anenjabhi sankhara (kamma formations of the imperturbable) (Sankhara and Kamma have similar meaning in the above context). For e.g. 'I think this cup is half full', this 'thought' would not produce meritorious or demeritorious Kamma, it is a neutral Kamma. I don't understand why the Abhidhamma says there are 60 cittas (even with Cetana as a Universal Mental Factors) that don't produce Kamma. Does it mean that the Cetana concomitant is not significant? Only the main Cittas are important? -- Tep: The important question to ask is : what can we do, if possible, to avoid akusala and nurture kusala cittas in those moments (is there enough time) ? I do not believe in "do nothing". Elaine: I know, I know, the argument is, these thought-moments go by so fast, there is No controller in there, therefore you and I can't do anything but let these thoughts-moments do their own business. We can't prove whether it is right or wrong. We can 'only' use 'conventional' language and 'conventional' common sense when dealing with real life. ;-)) With mettaa, Elaine #81863 From: "colette" Date: Sun Jan 27, 2008 9:12 pm Subject: Re: THE MIND OF NOWNESS ksheri3 "If ya wanna get to heaven Ya got to raise a little Hell" Ozark Mountain Daredevils Dear Connie, This is a winner. I'm still laughing at Scott's acceptance and play with the post I gave him so, now that I've been exposed to your jest I can think about little bits here & there tonight before I truely try to decipher it. I smile about the plays I thought of while reading your rosen laced thrust back into the group while those finger nails still do tend toward graiting on the blackboard, don't they? Thanx to you and Scott. Do you think Scott tends toward associating with the likes of Western occultists? One person even remarked that they'll probably open up one of our crypts in the distant future and find a Steven King novel only to believe that it's some kind of bible or something. Nitey-Nite toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "L G SAGE" wrote: > > Dear colette and Alex, > > My apologies for not jumping right into the sandbox but my G-string was already too scratchy and I had the DEA howling... or as Mom sang in her latest creation to me this morning: "Well I picked up the fiddle and I put down the gun and now I've got everybody on the run". LOL -<....> #81864 From: "shennieca" Date: Sun Jan 27, 2008 9:59 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Are thoughts vipaka? shennieca Hi Larry, (all), Larry: Here is a related question: is speech kamma or kamma result? Elaine: I think speech is both kamma and kamma result. I am sure thinking has to take place before speech. I think speech is verbal-sankhara (vaci-sankhara), therefore it is Kamma (sankhara has the same meaning as kamma). But what prompted the speech? The prompting comes from perceptions and feelings and other things. There is a flow chart of things going on in our mind before we think or speak. Imo, 'thinking' is a kamma result. Therefore, speech is also a kamma result. Imo, kamma and vipaka is like a never-ending loop. Even after attaining Nibbana, Kammas are still producing Vipakas. This loop does not break. The difference is that these Vipakas are inoperative (kiriya). No? Am I confused already? Argh. :-/ With mettaa, Elaine #81865 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jan 27, 2008 10:27 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Lessons in Detachment, Ch 5, no 2. sarahprocter... Dear Nina & all, --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > S: Nina, as Alex says a sotapanna cannot have even the most subtle of > > silabbataparamasa, such as a subtle trying to have more sati. > > Perhaps you > > misheard or there was an error. Was this from the recent India > > discussion? > > If you tell me where it was, I can listen. Or you can transcribe > > the part > > and I can raise it with KS. > ------ > N: I heard it on Aug. 17 , 007, tape b. Just after the > sankhaarupekkha of the Bodhisatta that is not possible. ... S: I just checked - it's on Aug 17, 08, tape b, after sankhaarupekkha (if anyone else wishes to listen, it's uploaded on www.dhammastudygroup.org). I think there's no problem at all. The discussion is about the cula-sotapanna, the sotapanna-to-be. Rob K asks if a cula sotapanna can fall back into wrong view and KS says there is a difference between wrong view and wrong practice, dittupadana and silabbatupadana. She then says what I agree sounds like: "as long as a person has become a sotapanna, there can be silabbatupadana, of practice, because even just the intention to have sati is wrong." It's clear from the context that she means, however, "as long as a person ***hasn't*** become a sotapanna....". Rob K responds by making a comment about vipassana kilesa and then there's further discussion about a cula sotapanna between us, so it's clear that we all understood the comments to be about the sotapanna-to-be, 'a person who hasn't become a sotapanna'. There are conditions for subtle kinds of silabbataparamasa until such a tendency is completely eradicated on becoming a sotapanna. If there's been any question about her meaning, we'd have checked it, I'm sure. Metta, Sarah ========= #81866 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jan 27, 2008 10:53 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Lessons in Detachment, Ch 5, no 2. sarahprocter... Hi Howard (Ann, Nina, Alex & all) --- upasaka@... wrote: > S: Nina, as Alex says a sotapanna cannot have even the most subtle of > silabbataparamasa, such as a subtle trying to have more sati. <...> ================================== >H: Sarah, why is trying to have more sati, a kusala lakkhana, an > instance > of attachment to rite & ritual? ... S: This is a good question, Howard!! You won't agree with my answer:). This is also relevant to the point Ann and Nina have picked up on. When there's trying to have sati, it indicates there's no awareness, no understanding of what has arisen already, naturally. Instead there's attachment and a subtle wrong practice of trying to have another dhamma arising now. At such a time, there's no understanding of conditioned dhammas or anatta, but the deep-rooted tendency to try and control dhammas is manifesting. This is exactly why it's wrong to try and do anything at all (whether it be focussing on the breath or opening a book)in order to have sati arise. For example, when visible object appears, awareness can be aware of it very simply and naturally. However, if there is an attempt to focus on visible object or an effort to be aware of it, we miss the Middle Path at such times. I think silabbataparamasa can be a lot more subtle than this too. There can be just a tiny urge to have more sati or panna to arise, for example. Of course, only the right understanding itself can know such instances of silabbataparamasa as distinct from simple attachment. .... >H: Not all intentional effort is such. > Striving > for kusala is part of the four right efforts and should not be > identified with > a defilement. Half of right effort, the positive half, is the > following: > __________________________ > > [iii] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & > > exerts his intent for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that > have not > yet arisen. > [iv] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & > exerts his intent for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, > plenitude, > development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen: This, > monks, is > called right effort." > ========================== ... S: When kusala arises, there is right effort at such moments already. When sati arises, there is right effort. There is no need to have 'intentional' effort or striving for sati to arise. This would be usually be siabbataparamasa at such times, as I see it. The quality of right effort when it arises is to already perform such functions as in the quote. This is not by a self doing anything. The Middle Way is subtle and I said you wouldn't like my answer, Howard:-). I do hope your domestic concerns are getting sorted out. There's always some issue of concern, isn't there? Thank goodness for the Dhamma! Metta, Sarah ======= #81867 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jan 27, 2008 11:43 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vis. CH XVIII, 23 sarahprocter... Hi Larry, --- LBIDD@... wrote: > Sarah: "If there's any idea of selection and choosing of an object, we > misunderstand the path of satipatthana." > > Larry: That is your idea and it has its merits, but I don't see it in > this chapter or anywhere in the Visuddhimagga or even the sutta pitaka. > Do you? ... S: The entire chapter XVIII is about the 'purification of view', the understanding of namas and rupas and the correct understanding that there is no person, no being that can conrol, select or choose any object to arise at any moment. Dhammas arise and fall away by conditions. Looking ahead a little, after discussing how 'some hold back and some overreach' (XVIII #30), the text says: "And how do those with eyes see? Here a bhikkhu sees what is become as become. Having seen what is become as become, he has entered upon the way to dispassion for it, to the fading away of greed for it, to its cessation. This is how one with eyes sees." (Iti.43; Ps.i.159). S: In other words, it is the understanding and dispassion towards whatever nama or rupa has 'become', has arisen already at the present moment, which is to be developed. It is not a striving, selection or choice of some other fantasy object. This is the Middle Way. Metta, Sarah ======== #81868 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jan 27, 2008 11:55 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Outline of Purification of View V.4 sarahprocter... Hi Larry, (Ken H & all), --- LBIDD@... wrote: > Larry: Ken is certainly welcome to 'lead' any discussions but what you > agreed to do is outline the chapter in a rather detailed way and be > available to answer any questions or respond to comments if necessary, > in a _timely_ manner. I wasn't going to ask anyone else to do this until > I say how you did. So, if you have to leave, we can wait until you are > ready. ... S: I don't remember ever agreeing to 'outline the chapter in a rather detailed way and so on', lol! I wouldn't have done that. At most, what I had in mind I'd do would be to give an occasional very brief and *selected* quotes for useful consideration with a few (preferably controversial) comments to inspire others to write and indicate why they disagree:-). I definitely would fail miserably on your detailed and timely criteria.... Really, you are by far the best person to continue leading the discussion for all the chapters, Larry. I'm much happier chipping in and commenting on your lead. As for what you do with Ken H or others, that's up to you as leader. So, please press on and in this way it won't matter if I'm flitting around the globe....:-)) Metta, Sarah p.s Also, as one of the mods here, I really prefer not to be any more pushy or conspicuous than I already am:). ======= #81869 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jan 28, 2008 12:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thank you Sarah and just two short points sarahprocter... Dear Bhante, Thank you for the good points you raise. --- pannabahulo wrote: > P: since sending that article I have discussed this 'Abhidhamma origin > conflict' with several very good friends.I accept fully that as the > Abhidhamma fits in with what the Lord Buddha taught,then there is no > need to pursue unanswerable questions.Thus I agree with your view on > this. ... S: I'm glad. Really, I think no one but a Buddha could have possible pnetrated and taught the Abhidhamma. ... > P.I mean what we call Vipassana.But could you please expand a little on > what exactly you mean by "meditation as taught by the Buddha"? > > Thank you again Sarah, and I look forward to learning about your > thoughts on precisely what Vipassana meditation means to you. ... S: In the texts, vipassana refers to insight, specifically to the vipassana nanas (insight knowledges), beginning with the clear differentiation between namas and rupas (naama-ruupa pariccheda ~naa.na). This is the growth of high levels of right understanding through the development of satipatthana. It always has to begin (and then begin again and again) at this very moment, clearly being aware and understanding the dhamma that appears now. As I wrote in my other message to you: >S: "Right understanding is the first and foremost factor of the 8-fold Path. It is right understanding of namas and rupas which is to be developed. In another thread, Larry is quoting and discussing what 'ditthi-visuddhi' (Purification of View) is. It's made clear that it is purification of view with regard to understanding *any nama or rupa which appears now*. This is the practice, the development of satipatthana, the basis for the development of insight. So what is nama? What is rupa? These are the questions we have to consider carefully and really understand, not just by a book definition. Seeing now, at this very moment as we talk, is nama. It is the reality which experiences visible object. There is no self, no person involved at all. It's an element. Visible object which is seen now is a rupa. Again, there is no 'thing' in it. There is no computer, no watch, no person involved. It is the element which is seen only. This may sound technical and theoretical, but it's pointing to the practice at this very moment. Without any words or special attention of any kind, there can be the direct understanding and awareness now of any nama or rupa which appears without any selection, labelling, slowing down or idea of any position or technique. If it weren't possible, the Buddha wouldn't have taught it!"< S: So this is the practice which leads to the attainment of vipassana (insight). It's never a question of a particular situation, place or focus. If you have time, you may also like to read more on vipassana in 'Useful Posts' under 'vipassana' (files section). Also, there is a chapter on 'The stages of Vipassanaa' in A.Sujin's book 'Survey', available on-line. Does this all clarify what I mean by 'vipassana bhavana'? .... > Please give my best wishes to Jonothan and please wish him a speedy > recovery. ... S: That's very kind and he thanks you. Yes, he's been laid pretty low with flu and had appointments he had to attend today. We hope your leg is improving now. Metta & Respect, Sarah ======== #81870 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Jan 28, 2008 12:30 am Subject: wow!!! philofillet Hi all I have to tell you about what happened the other night. I got up around 2 a.m, turned on the computer as I stupidly tend to do (addiction) and checked DSG. Responded to Nina's post in which she thanked me for the post to Steven on drinking. I went back to bed, decided to meditate on my futon. I was feeling really good in a Dhamma sense thinking about that post, about the way a single incident of abstinence can ripple in an unimaginable way, thinking how my post might have conditioned moments of abstinence for who knows who that would ripple in who knows what ways. And I sat there meditating on the breath, nodding off a couple of times as I usually do, bringing it back and....can you see where this is going?...I suddenly found myself in a state of concentrated bliss that I have never experienced before and which I must assume was jhanas or access to it or something. It was amazing, I just sat there for 15 or 20 minutes, I don't know, with sense of body very small and sense of bliss energy very big. Now, you have to understand I'm a meditator who is never able to hold the object for more than a dozen or so breaths, I always nod off, so just sitting there with the object and that bliss in such a concetrated way was really extraordinary. I don't see the real meaning/vale of jhanas (if it was jhanas) unless one is able to enter it often and use it as a foundation for understanding, but it certainly was a cool experience! It actually happened once before to a less sensational degree last winter, but I didn't post about it then. One interesting thing about this is the way it came from that good state of mind that came from reading Nina's post and reflecting on my post on abstinence. Also interesting that I felt irritated last night when it didn't happen again, and kind of hungover today from not getting it, whereas yesterday, after it happened, I was completely blissed out right through the day. I can certainly see from this how people could get addicted to jhanas as an end in itself. (Even if my experience wasn't actually jhanas.) Don't intend to spark debate on value of jhanas, just reporting and getting this down for my own reference later. And I know I can't be sure it was jhanas, but I'll tell you Something sure Happened! Thanks for posts in the vipaka threaed, and two from Sarah and one from Steven on other topics, I will be back to them asap. Metta, Phil #81871 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 28, 2008 12:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:subtle attachment, MP3 talks. nilovg Dear Sarah, It is clear now about silabata paraamasa. Thanks. I like what you wrote further on: Often kusala citta alternates with akusala citta. I heard this morning Kh Nipat saying that listening is not enough and a necessary condition for satipatthana. He is right, and my listening is not enough. There can also arise cittas with lobha that are thinking: I need to listen so that once sati can be directly aware of nama and rupa. Hard to distinguish. This is good to discuss, I think. Is this not so all the time, kusala citta with some understanding that sees the necessity of listening and study, and then clinging? What is Ann thinking? Nina. Op 28-jan-2008, om 7:27 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > It's clear from the context that she means, > however, "as long as a person ***hasn't*** become a sotapanna....". #81872 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 28, 2008 12:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vis. CH XVIII, 23 nilovg Dear Sarah (Larry), Op 28-jan-2008, om 8:43 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > And how do those with eyes see? Here a bhikkhu sees what is become as > become. Having seen what is become as become, he has entered upon > the way > to dispassion for it, to the fading away of greed for it, to its > cessation. This is how one with eyes sees." (Iti.43; Ps.i.159). > > S: In other words, it is the understanding and dispassion towards > whatever > nama or rupa has 'become', has arisen already at the present > moment, which > is to be developed. ------- N: I looked up the Itivutthaka, 43: : The Thai text has: the khandhas which have arisen, this is perhaps the Co. The khandhas: nama and rupa that have arisen. Nina. #81873 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 28, 2008 1:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Are thoughts vipaka? nilovg Hi Howard, I wrote before to Rob M about this. Yes, the Vibhanga, book of analysis, and also the patisambhidhamagga has different moments of citta in processes. But the co gives more details. Nina. Op 28-jan-2008, om 5:24 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > By 'thought moment' he means nothing more specific than > "citta", as I understand it. The details on all those various sorts > of cittas, > BTW, is strictly commentarial, as far as I know - that is, not even > occurring > in the Abhidhamma Pitaka. #81874 From: Dieter Möller Date: Mon Jan 28, 2008 2:15 am Subject: Fw: [dsg] Re: Alleged Slowing Down of Mind States .. The Monkey Mind Model.... moellerdieter Hi Tep, 'T: ( D: yes, nibbana isn't conditioned .... I only wanted to emphasize that one should be careful when considering ' groupings' .. up to now I found no convincing explanation that in Abh. under the umbrella of Paramattha Dhammas nibbana is mentioned besides the khandas..) What did you expect to see? ' D: limitation to the khandas .. or to speak with Wittgenstein: "Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent." with Metta Dieter (P.S: I simply clicked 'answer' ..change of address the reason for an off list message ...?) #81875 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Jan 28, 2008 3:37 am Subject: Re: wow!!! buddhatrue Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > I was feeling really good in a > Dhamma sense thinking about that post, about the way a single > incident of abstinence can ripple in an unimaginable way, thinking > how my post might have conditioned moments of abstinence for who > knows who that would ripple in who knows what ways. And I sat there > meditating on the breath, nodding off a couple of times as I usually > do, bringing it back and....can you see where this is going?...I > suddenly found myself in a state of concentrated bliss that I have > never experienced before and which I must assume was jhanas or > access to it or something. It was amazing, I just sat there for 15 > or 20 minutes, I don't know, with sense of body very small and sense > of bliss energy very big. James: This sounds like the meditation "Recollection of Virtue". The Buddha taught this meditation and it can result in suppression of the hindrances. According to the Vism., it can result in access concentration, that concentration just prior to the first jhana. > > I don't see the real meaning/vale of jhanas (if it was jhanas) > unless one is able to enter it often and use it as a foundation for > understanding, but it certainly was a cool experience! James: Of course it is used as a basis for understanding. The Buddha taught that it is beneficial and will ultimately rid the mind of defilements. You can check out this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anussati It actually > happened once before to a less sensational degree last winter, but I > didn't post about it then. James: See, development is gradual. When people hear of such experiences, they don't realize the gradual process that lead up to them- so they discount them as imaginary. > > One interesting thing about this is the way it came from that > good state of mind that came from reading Nina's post and reflecting > on my post on abstinence. James: Yeah, that is definitely Recollection of Virtue. And since virtue is very important to you (because of past transgressions) this type of meditation would be very powerful. > > Also interesting that I felt irritated last night when it didn't > happen again, and kind of hungover today from not getting it, > whereas yesterday, after it happened, I was completely blissed out > right through the day. I can certainly see from this how people > could get addicted to jhanas as an end in itself. James: I don't know about that. But the Vism. states that you should remember everything, every detail of every condition, that occurred prior to the access concentration and try to replicate it again. The Vism. compares this to archery skill and states that remembering one's stance, movement, etc. is important to repeating the skill. The same thing goes for meditation. (Even if my > experience wasn't actually jhanas.) James: Don't doubt yourself or let others lead you to doubt. Such doubt is a hindrance. > > Don't intend to spark debate on value of jhanas, just reporting > and getting this down for my own reference later. James: ;-)) Anything posted to this group will spark some type of debate! And I know I can't > be sure it was jhanas, but I'll tell you Something sure Happened! > Metta, James #81876 From: "pannabahulo" Date: Mon Jan 28, 2008 3:40 am Subject: for Howard and James pannabahulo •(Quantum physics) introduced the idea that reality requires our participation with experiments that demonstrate that particles behave one way when we look at them and another when we are not looking! Suddenly our own consciousness counted with some quantum physicists proclaiming that consciousness is fundamental to reality and all matter emerges from it. • One of the main ideas in Punk Science, relies on the conclusions of quantum physicists that have been previously outlined in this article that consciousness is fundamental to reality. This is a conclusion that is becoming well – publicised through films like `The Secret' and many current books. As a result of this activity we are becoming more familiar with the concept that consciousness gives rise to matter and not the other way round. • What I am proposing in Punk Science, is that the speed of light is not the speed limit of our universe at all, but the limitation of this dimension of consciousness and that there are many further dimensions of consciousness beyond. The limit of our consciousness therefore becomes relabelled as the Perception Horizon. The concept of the speed of light being unlimited is surprisingly not a concept out of the realms of orthodox physics. In the first few years of the new millennium a team of physicists did the unthinkable and suggest that light moved at faster speeds in the early universe. Actually physicist Joao Magueijo at Imperial College, London went on record saying light is infinite and is expressed in different dimensions. In fact, Einstein's theory of special relativity, that originated the concept of light being the ultimate speed limit of the universe, incorporated the idea of perspective. So, our observational perspective or our consciousness was always a part of the theory of relativity anyway. So now we understand that our universe is not limited to the speed of light and that we can go beyond the Perception Horizon (as long as we do not have any mass) what is it that lies beyond? Could this be the place where the missing dark matter and dark energy reside? Do dark energy and dark matter actually appear dark to us because they are higher dimensions of light that are beyond our normal perception? Are these the realms of the mystical experiences of higher consciousness that can only be experienced with the subtle bodies such as the astral? Of course, what we have previously thought to be the darkest realm of the universe now becomes the lightest; we are now ready to explore black holes. Dr Manjir Samanta-Laughton MBBS, Dip Bio-energy #81878 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jan 27, 2008 11:13 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Are thoughts vipaka? upasaka_howard Hi, Larry (and Elaine & all) - In a message dated 1/28/2008 12:10:01 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@... writes: Hi Howard and Elaine, Here is a related question: is speech kamma or kamma result? Larry ===================================== Speech, like thinking, is an aggregational activity. Speech, it might be said, is audible expression of discursive thinking - a stream of rupas corresponding to a stream of mind cittas, in abhidhammic terms. So, I would guess the question really comes down to whether the the cittas underlying speech are kamma or vipaka, and that largely reduces to the very same question about thinking. It seems to me that generally the correct answer is "both," some states kamma and some vipaka. Intermixed among the mind states involved with thinking (and speech) are kammic states, being "push" states that induce the thinking and the speaking, whereas other states are resultant states wherein the cetana is fabricational cetana that is not willing per se. Those other states, states that are actually *part* of the thinking and those that are the mental underpinnings of the speech activity, are vipaka. At least this is how it seems to me. With metta, Howard #81879 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Mon Jan 28, 2008 4:41 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (73) nichiconn Dear Friends, Part 26 16. Mahaanipaato 1. Sumedhaatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa 474. "Khandhadhaatu-aayatana.m, sa"nkhata.m jaatimuulaka.m dukkha.m; yoniso anuvicinantii, vaareyya.m kissa iccheyya.m. 472. "Reflecting in a reasoned manner that the aggregates, the elements, [and] the sense bases are conditioned state[s], have rebirth as their root, [and] are painful, why should I wish for marriage? Khandhadhaatu-aayatananti ruupakkhandhaadayo ime pa~ncakkhandhaa, cakkhudhaatu-aadayo imaa a.t.thaarasadhaatuyo, cakkhaayatanaadiini imaani dvaadasaayatanaaniiti eva.m khandhaa dhaatuyo aayatanaani caati sabba.m ida.m ruupaaruupadhammajaata.m samecca sambhuyya paccayehi katattaa sa"nkhata.m, tayida.m tasmi.m bhave pavattamaana.m dukkha.m, jaatipaccayattaa jaatimuulakanti. Eva.m yoniso upaayena anuvicinantii cintayantii, vaareyya.m vivaaha.m, kissa kena kaara.nena icchissaami. 472. The aggregates, the elements, [and] the sense bases (khandha-dhaatu-aayatana.m) means: these five aggregates (khandhaa) beginning with the material aggregate (ruupa-khandaadayo), these eighteen elements (dhaatuyo) beginning with the eye element (cakkhu-dhaatu-aadayo), [and] these twelve sense bases (dvaa-dasaayatanaani) beginning with the sense base of the eye (cakkh'-aayatanaadiini).* Thus, the aggregates, the elements, and the sense bases - all these are conditioned state[s] because they are produced through causes, coming into existence together, being associated. Thus, the aggregates, the elements, and the sense bases - all this arising of the phenomena of material form and immaterial form is [a series of] conditioned state[s] through being produced from conditions, coming into existence together, being associated. These three - [the aggregates, the elements, and the senses bases] - coming to be in this existence are painful. Because they have birth as their cause (jaati-paccaya-ttaa), they have rebirth as their root (jaati-mulaka.m). Reflecting, thinking, thus, in a reasoned manner, through the [right] means, why (kissa), for what reason (kena kaara-.nena) shall I wish for marriage (vaareyya.m = vivhaaha.m). *See the cy above on v.43 (pp67f). {...Therii Pa.taacaaraa analyzed the elements of existence, etc...} 475. "Divase divase tisatti, sataani navanavaa pateyyu.m kaayamhi; vassasatampi ca ghaato, seyyo dukkhassa ceva.m khayo. 473. "Let 300 new[ly sharpened] swords fall on my body every day. Even if the striking lasted 100 years, it would be better if in this way there were destruction of pain. "Siilaani brahmacariya.m, pabbajjaa dukkaraa"ti yadeta.m maataapituuhi vutta.m tassa pa.tivacana.m daatu.m "divase divase"ti-aadi vutta.m. Tattha divase divase tisattisataani navanavaa pateyyu.m kaayamhiiti dine dine tii.ni sattisataani taavadeva piitanisitabhaavena abhinavaani kaayasmi.m sampateyyu.m. Vassasatampi ca ghaato seyyoti nirantara.m vassasatampi patamaano yathaavutto sattighaato seyyo. Dukkhassa ceva.m khayoti eva.m ce va.t.tadukkhassa parikkhayo bhaveyya, eva.m mahantampi pavattidukkha.m adhivaasetvaa nibbaanaadhigamaaya ussaaho kara.niiyoti adhippaayo. 473. In order to give a reply to what her mother and father had said - "The living of the holy life [and] going forth are difficult to perform" - she spoke the verse beginning, [Let three hundred new(ly sharpened) swords (tii.ni satti-sataani) that are new (abhinavaani) through being sharpened on the spot fall (sampateyyu.m) on my body (kaayasmi.m) every day (dine dine). Even if the striking (ghaato) lasted 100 years, it would be better means: even if the blows from swords (satti-ghaato) were falling for 100 years as I have said, it would be better. If in this way (c' eva.m) there were destruction (khayo) of pain (dukkhassa) means: if in this way (eva.m ce) there should be the exhaustion (parikkhayo) of the pain of continued existence (va.t.ta-dukkhassa). Thus, having endured continuous pain which is great, effort should be made for the attainment of quenching; that is the implication. .. to be continued, connie #81880 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jan 28, 2008 12:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Are thoughts vipaka? upasaka_howard Hi, Elaine - In a message dated 1/28/2008 12:25:02 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, shennieca@... writes: Hi Howard, Tep, Phil, all, Oh gosh, I'm stuck on this topic. lol :-)) Howard: Well, I think he said that kamma is cetana. (But not all cetana need be kamma.) Elaine: I think, if the Buddha really wanted to say, `only some cetana produce Kamma', he would have said so but he didn't. He said, 'Cetanahan BhikkaveKamman Vadami'. Therefore, I think the Buddha meant All Cetana is Kamma. -------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: The thing is, Elaine, so far as I know, the Buddha didn't define cetana in the suttas as kamma. What is said was that kamma is cetana at base. Now, you see, that leaves open the possibility of some cetana not being kamma. So, the Abhidhammic use of 'cetana' to include fabricational (or constructive or sankharic) activities other than volition per se seems not unreasonable to me. there is at least kiriya cetana (functional willing) that is neutral, and lacks kammic result. ---------------------------------------------------------------- When you said `kamma is cetana', it's the reverse, I think it is a false logic thingy. No? ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: No. No, I believe that to the Buddha 'kamma' refers to intention that serves as a promissory note that is eventually paid by means of an appropriate resultant mind state arising in the mind stream. I understand why you say what you say here, though. The definitional statement the Buddha gave was "Intention, I tell you, is kamma. Intending, one does kamma by way of body, speech, & intellect." On the face of it, that sounds like a definition of cetana rather than a definition of kamma, so it could well be understood as you do, but that is not as I see it. At the time of the Buddha, 'kamma' meant (and literally does mean) "action". What the Buddha said here, is along the same lines as how he began the Dhammapada: "Mind is the forerunner of states. Mind is chief; mind-made are they." In saying "Intention, I tell you, is kamma. Intending, one does kamma by way of body, speech, & intellect," the Buddha is saying to not think about the action but its internal basis in volition as the real kamma. He's saying that *it is the volition that is the real action - the real kamma*. That, the intention, is what he is pointing back to as the real kamma (or action). I take what I quoted above from AN 6.63 to mean that it is the intention that is the actual kamma, and not asociated "external" action. ----------------------------------------------------------- All Cetana give rise to Kamma:- meritorious Kamma, demeritorious Kamma, or imperturbable Kamma. ------------------------------------------------------------ Howard: As I see it, the cetana that is volition is what the Buddha identifies as kamma, emphasizing intention. That, in fact, is the basis for morality in Buddhism (and much of modern law as well) - namely that it is not just an act that is to be judged, but the intention underlying it. The Dhamma is an "internal" matter first before being a behavioral one. [Similarly, U.S. ex-president, Jimmy Carter, who I actually don't care much for, once said somewhat along the following lines: "I've already committed adultery by lusting in my heart."] -------------------------------------------------------- 3 types of Kamma: 1. Punnabhi sankhara (kamma formations of merit) 2. Apunnabhi sankhara (kamma formations of demerit) 3. Anenjabhi sankhara (kamma formations of the imperturbable) (Sankhara and Kamma have similar meaning in the above context). For e.g. 'I think this cup is half full', this 'thought' would not produce meritorious or demeritorious Kamma, it is a neutral Kamma. I don't understand why the Abhidhamma says there are 60 cittas (even with Cetana as a Universal Mental Factors) that don't produce Kamma. -------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Your terminology confuses me here, Elaine. Kamma is the producer, and kamma vipaka the effect. ------------------------------------------------------------- Does it mean that the Cetana concomitant is not significant? Only the main Cittas are important? ---------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I haven't studied that. What are some of the mind states said to not have kammic results? Why don't we think about some of them to see whether, from personal experience, this makes sense? -------------------------------------------------------------- -- Tep: The important question to ask is : what can we do, if possible, to avoid akusala and nurture kusala cittas in those moments (is there enough time) ? I do not believe in "do nothing". Elaine: I know, I know, the argument is, these thought-moments go by so fast, there is No controller in there, therefore you and I can't do anything but let these thoughts-moments do their own business. ---------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: We can be attentive, seeing what arises as it is. ---------------------------------------------------------------- We can't prove whether it is right or wrong. We can 'only' use 'conventional' language and 'conventional' common sense when dealing with real life. ;-)) With mettaa, Elaine =============================== With metta, Howard #81881 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jan 28, 2008 12:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] wow!!! upasaka_howard Hi, Phil - I'm happy for you. :-) In a message dated 1/28/2008 3:31:08 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, philco777@... writes: Hi all I have to tell you about what happened the other night. I got up around 2 a.m, turned on the computer as I stupidly tend to do (addiction) and checked DSG. Responded to Nina's post in which she thanked me for the post to Steven on drinking. I went back to bed, decided to meditate on my futon. I was feeling really good in a Dhamma sense thinking about that post, about the way a single incident of abstinence can ripple in an unimaginable way, thinking how my post might have conditioned moments of abstinence for who knows who that would ripple in who knows what ways. And I sat there meditating on the breath, nodding off a couple of times as I usually do, bringing it back and....can you see where this is going?...I suddenly found myself in a state of concentrated bliss that I have never experienced before and which I must assume was jhanas or access to it or something. It was amazing, I just sat there for 15 or 20 minutes, I don't know, with sense of body very small and sense of bliss energy very big. Now, you have to understand I'm a meditator who is never able to hold the object for more than a dozen or so breaths, I always nod off, so just sitting there with the object and that bliss in such a concetrated way was really extraordinary. I don't see the real meaning/vale of jhanas (if it was jhanas) unless one is able to enter it often and use it as a foundation for understanding, but it certainly was a cool experience! ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I agree about the importance of it not being a one-time thing, for it's benefit is in its cultivational role. And one swallow does not a summer make. (If that's the right saying.) ------------------------------------------------------- It actually happened once before to a less sensational degree last winter, but I didn't post about it then. One interesting thing about this is the way it came from that good state of mind that came from reading Nina's post and reflecting on my post on abstinence. -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, it is interesting. The calm, the ease, that grows out of wholesome intention and action is of major importance to attaining jhanas. Sila is so important. ----------------------------------------------------------- Also interesting that I felt irritated last night when it didn't happen again, and kind of hungover today from not getting it, whereas yesterday, after it happened, I was completely blissed out right through the day. I can certainly see from this how people could get addicted to jhanas as an end in itself. (Even if my experience wasn't actually jhanas.) Don't intend to spark debate on value of jhanas, just reporting and getting this down for my own reference later. And I know I can't be sure it was jhanas, but I'll tell you Something sure Happened! ------------------------------------------------------------ Howard: :-) ------------------------------------------------------------ Thanks for posts in the vipaka threaed, and two from Sarah and one from Steven on other topics, I will be back to them asap. Metta, Phil ============================== With metta, Howard #81882 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jan 28, 2008 12:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Are thoughts vipaka? upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Rob) - In a message dated 1/28/2008 4:01:24 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, I wrote before to Rob M about this. Yes, the Vibhanga, book of analysis, and also the patisambhidhamagga has different moments of citta in processes. But the co gives more details. Nina. Op 28-jan-2008, om 5:24 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > By 'thought moment' he means nothing more specific than > "citta", as I understand it. The details on all those various sorts > of cittas, > BTW, is strictly commentarial, as far as I know - that is, not even > occurring > in the Abhidhamma Pitaka. ================================ That's interesting. Specifically, which of the following occur in the Vibhanga & the PTSM? (0,1,2,3) Life continuum (bhavanga) a type of under-current or inactive consciousness (4) A series of thought consciousness sense-door adverting, e.g. seeing, hearing, etc. (5) Seeing (6) Receiving (7) Investigating (8) Determining (9-15) Apperception or Impulsion (7 moments of Javana) (16-17) Registering (0) Bhavanga again With metta, Howard #81883 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 28, 2008 5:46 am Subject: Alone with Dhamma, Ch 2, no 1. nilovg Dear friends, Chapter 2. Remembrance of the Dhamma. When we were visiting the Thai Temple in Bodhgaya, two neatly dressed boys with neckties entered. Young as they were, they recited for us the beginning of the Dhammasagani, the first Book of the Abhidhamma, enumerating all sobhana cetasikas that accompany kusala citta. They recited the Pali text without mistakes, helping each other. It was impressive to hear the Pali text so well recited. When we asked them about the meaning of kusala cittas and akusala cittas in daily life they could not answer our questions. Their teacher explained that the application of the Dhamma was a subject dealt with in the higher grades, not in the beginning. This shows that reciting and learning the terms by heart is very different from applying them in daily life. The understanding of the realities of daily life is the purpose of studying Abhidhamma. Acharn Sujin said to us: “One does not know that studying Abhidhamma is right now. If one does not understand this moment, one does not study Abhidhamma.” We asked many questions during our pilgrimage, and Acharn Sujin always led us back to the dhamma appearing at the present moment. Without awareness and understanding of what appears now we shall not know what citta, cetasika and rúpa are. One may wonder what the difference is between thinking of realities and direct awareness of them. Sati arises with sobhana (beautiful) citta. There is sati of the level of dåna which is non-forgetful of generosity. There is sati of the level of síla which is non-forgetful with regard to abstinence from akusala. There is sati of the level of samatha which is mindful of the development of calm with a suitable meditation subject. There is sati of the level of satipatthåna which is mindful of one nåma or rúpa at a time in order to realize their true nature. We discussed sati of the level of satipatthåna time and again since it is important to have right understanding of what sati is and what its object is. We know that sati is a sobhana cetasika and not self, but have we really understood this? We learnt that sati is aware of one object at a time as it appears through one doorway at a time, but can we apply this knowledge? We have to listen again and again and consider in order to have more understanding. Acharn Sujin repeated three times: have more understanding. The development of satipatthåna is the development of right understanding that sees visible object, seeing, sound, hearing, whatever appears, as a dhamma that arises because of the appropriate conditions. Acharn Sujin said many times that seeing arises because of eyesense, which is rúpa, and visible object which is also rúpa. Seeing experiences visible object or colour, it is nåma. It has no shape or form. ******* Nina. #81884 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Mon Jan 28, 2008 5:47 am Subject: Buddha's Instructions For A Long-term Formal Develoment In Satipatthaana Suttam abhidhammika Dear Sarah, Sccott D, Nina How are you? This is a brief reply, a very brief one at that. I have read your replies to me. I will respond to them later. Sarah asked: "What does 'formal development of each comonent...' mean? Who does the embarking, Suan? Where do we read about this *formal* development in the texts?" Sarah, I have posted "Buddha's Instructions For A Long-term Formal Development In Satipa.t.thaana Suttam". If you have read it, your question 'Where do we read about this *formal* development in the texts?" has been already answered. Just in case you were not satisfied by that answer, I think it is about time that you told me what you understand about the term "formal" as I got the first 'formal' impression that you were taking an issue with formal development of samatha and vipassanaa. :-) With kind regards, Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org #81885 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 28, 2008 6:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Are thoughts vipaka? nilovg Hi Howard, Op 27-jan-2008, om 21:31 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > N: Vipaaka is the fruit of kamma which has ripened. > ----------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Yes. Specifically, a mindstate, right? One that had the kamma as a > condition for it? > ----------------------------------------------------- N: Yes. ------- > > N: Let us begin at the first moment of our life. Kamma produced our > birth, being born in this place from such parents, in such > surroundings. > ---------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > But do you not consider that entire scenario, the birth to particular > parents in a particular realm, in certain surroundings, and with > certain > physical and mental propensities mere convention? Or do you > consider the specific > rebirth citta, that specific mind state, to be the actual vipaka, > and for it > to "include" or "imply" all the rest? > ------------------------------------------------------ > N: > There was a first moment of life, this is a citta, > namely, vipaakacitta, the fruit produced by past kamma. > ----------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Ah, ok. But what about all the rest you mentioned? > ------------------------------------------------------ > N: When the child grows up there are the right conditions for such > or such sense-impressions, that is, other moments of vipaaka. The > surroundings fit the kamma that produced its birth. As we read in > the suttas: people are born poor or rich, with many illnesses or > few illnesses... Also, people are born with different capacities, with wisdom or without it. We can say, that the rebirth-consciousness vipaaka is like a reflection in a looking glass of the kamma that produced it. > ------------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > But so far, Nina, the only definition provided for 'kamma vipaka' is > "the fruit of kamma that has ripened." That is so vague as to be of > little use, > Nina. It is pretty much "just words". ------ N: I want to go step by step. There is no thinking yet. That comes later. -------- > H: Should this not at least be tightened > up to "Any mind state that is the ripened fruit of kamma"? And if > that is okay > so far, still more needs to be said. In particular, are there mind > states > that arise with kamma as condition that are NOT "the ripened fruit > of kamma?" -------- N: Kamma-condition in the Patthaana: There are two kinds of kamma- condition: conascent kamma-condition and asynchronous kamma- condition. Cetanå which arises with each citta directs the tasks of the associated dhammas and conditions these dhammas by way of conascent kamma-condition, sahajåta kamma-paccaya. The cetanå which is kusala or akusala and which can produce the appropriate results of good deeds or bad deeds later on conditions that result by way of asynchronous kamma-condition, nånakkhaùika kamma-paccaya. We are speaking mostly of the second one. Let us first speak of the second one. When the patisandhi-citta arises the accompanying cetanå conditions that citta, the other cetasikas and also the kamma-produced rúpa which arises at the same time by way of conascent kamma-condition (Patthåna, Faultless Triplet, Investigation Chapter, Kamma, § 427, vii b). Asynchronous kamma-condition, nåùakkhaùika kamma- paccaya, pertains to kusala cetanå or akusala cetanå which is able to produce later on results of good or evil deeds committed through body, speech and mind. The cetanå, volition or intention, which motivates a good or bad deed falls away, but since each citta conditions the next one in the cycle of birth and death, the force of cetanå is accumulated from moment to moment so that it can produce result later on. It conditions the result in the form of vipåkacitta and specific rúpas of the body by way of asynchronous kamma-condition. When one, for example, slanders, there is akusala kamma through speech and this can produce akusala vipåka later on. The akusala cetanå or kamma conditions the vipåkacitta which arises later on by way of asynchronous kamma-condition. At the same time, the akusala cetanå is related to the citta and cetasikas it accompanies and to speech intimation (vacíviññatti), a rúpa produced by citta, by way of conascent kamma-condition. Thus, cetanå is in different ways a condition for other phenomena. Next time about vipaakacittas in the course of life, such as seeing. -------- Nina. #81886 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Jan 28, 2008 7:32 am Subject: Re: for Howard and James buddhatrue Hi Ven. Pannabahulo, Thank you for providing this article. I read it and I'm not quite sure what to make of it. You don't provide your opinion so I'm not sure what you make of it either. Is this another trick question? ;-)) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "pannabahulo" wrote: > • One of the main ideas in Punk Science, relies on the > conclusions of quantum physicists that have been previously outlined > in this article that consciousness is fundamental to reality. This is > a conclusion that is becoming well – publicised through films > like `The Secret' and many current books. As a result of this > activity we are becoming more familiar with the concept that > consciousness gives rise to matter and not the other way round. James: I was not familiar with the term "Punk Science" so I did some research. This is what I found at the Punk Science web site: "Punk Science charts the current revolution in science that is arising from rebels around the world and gaining ground. This brave new world is not one devoid of meaning or thought, but one alive with consciousness, where we dance in a field of light imbued with the mind of God." Off-hand, I would say that this isn't very Buddhist. ;-)) Metta, James #81888 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Jan 28, 2008 8:26 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Are thoughts vipaka? .. paccuppanna dhamma ... dhammanusara Hi Elaine (Nina), - We were discussing resultants of thoughts and kamma. > > Tep: The important question to ask is : what can we do, if possible, > to avoid akusala and nurture kusala cittas in those moments (is there > enough time) ? I do not believe in "do nothing". > > > Elaine: I know, I know, the argument is, these thought-moments go by > so fast, there is No controller in there, therefore you and I can't > do anything but let these thoughts-moments do their own business. > > We can't prove whether it is right or wrong. We can 'only' > use 'conventional' language and 'conventional' common sense when > dealing with real life. ;-)) > T: No. I agree that we cannot prove this kind of thing. But we can influence/condition future arising of kusala cittas through developing right mindfulness (along with right effort that is guided by right view on wholesomeness) right now, I think. That is the meaning of paccuppanna dhamma in the following text. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nanananda/wheel188.html Atiitaa.m naanvaagameyya nappa.tika"nkhe anaagata.m Yadatita.m pahiina.m ta.m appatta~nca anaagata.m Paccuppanna~nca yo dhamma.m tattha tattha vipassati Let one not trace back the past Or yearn for the future-yet-to-come That which is past is left behind The "yet-to-come" is unattained And that which is present he discerns With insight as and when it comes. â€" M III 187 Best wishes, Tep === #81889 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Jan 28, 2008 8:30 am Subject: No convincing explanation ..[was Alleged Slowing Down..] dhammanusara Hi Dieter, - We have been discussing nama & rupa as conditioned dhammas. > > >D: yes, nibbana isn't conditioned .... I only wanted to emphasize that one should be careful when considering ' groupings' .. up to now I found no convincing explanation that in Abh. under the umbrella of Paramattha Dhammas nibbana is mentioned besides the khandas..) > >Tep: What did you expect to see? ' > > D: limitation to the khandas .. > or to speak with Wittgenstein: "Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent." > > (P.S: I simply clicked 'answer' ..change of address the reason for an off list message ...?) ............. T: If you cannot get help from the Abhidhamma but only confusion in the Suttas, then it is a good idea to stop the discussion. We have hit a dead-end. I do not know what caused your message to be sent to my personal Inbox. So far I have known only one incident : when the Web site of a discussion group is tempory down or if the traffic is extremely busy, the Yahoo! computer will direct the sent email to the Inbox of the addressee. Tep === #81890 From: Dieter Möller Date: Mon Jan 28, 2008 9:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] No convincing explanation ..[was Alleged Slowing Down..] moellerdieter Hi Tep, .. you wrote: 'T: If you cannot get help from the Abhidhamma but only confusion in the Suttas, then it is a good idea to stop the discussion. We have hit a dead-end.' D: no confusion in the suttas ..only in respect to later texts..e.g. Abhidhamma. My understanding of Theravada is given within the framework of the former incl. the Vinaya Pitaka , which in doubt is the judge. But I respect Abhidhamma to be part of the Tipitaka. So I am not clear to what you are refering by 'hit a dead-end': to my suggestion to leave nibbana out of discussion or stopping our exchange in general because you stick to Abhidhamma? (no problem either way..) with Metta Dieter P.S: I received your mail twice within a 30 minutes interruption .. nothing bothering ..only wondering . #81891 From: "Alex" Date: Mon Jan 28, 2008 10:45 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Hello im new member here. truth_aerator Hi Suan, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "abhidhammika" wrote: > > Dear Bud, Stephen, Alex, Phil, Nina, Sarah, Jon, Scott D, Mike N, > Bob K > > How are you? > > Bud wrote: > > "If you really like to go for the real Buddha teaching, then you > consider on the Anapanasati meditation." >>>> True. As good as Anapanasati is (it was my favourite meditation and the most that I ever did), there are about ~40 other subjects of meditation. However, anapanasati is generally the most suitable. > I like what you wrote. > > We must give the First Priority to the full Theravada teachings of > Gotama the Buddha and of his Ariya Disciples such as Saariputta and > Aanandaa.e >>>> Correction. We must give FULL priority to the suttas of 4 Nikayas, as they are non-sectarian and for the most (if not completly) part PREDATE ALL 18-20 schools of which Theravada is one. > Then, we can give the secondary priority to the transmitted > teachings of the learned scholar monks such as the late Mahasi > Sayadaw from Burma because it was their duty to transmit the > original teachings truthfully as well as present modern commentaries > on them which conform to those teachings of Gotama the Buddha. > > Then, if we could afford time, as the last priority we may read or > listen to lay puthujjana teachers who provide their personal take on > teachings which may or may not conform to the original Theravada > teachings of Gotama the Buddha. >>>> Remember the statement (in DN16 and AN) about comparing anything said to Sutta-Vinaya, even if it was said by the Elders who seen Buddha face to face? > Usually, such puthujjana teachers (ordained and non-ordained) may > present choice cuts of the original Theravada teachings to suit > their personal situations - without realizing that they have reduced > the Buddha's teachings to their puthujjana level of understanding, > and - without realizing that they were trying to equate their > puthujjana understanding to the Noble Right View (Ariya > Sammaaditthi). > > That has been a familiar unfortunate phenomenon throughout the very > long history of Theravada Saasanaa since the Buddha's time (more > than 2500 years). >>>> See above. > Aanapaanasati is my primary formal development of the Right > Concentration as a compulsory component of the Nobel Eightfold Path > (A.t.thangiko maggo as taught by the Buddha in his First Discourse, > Dhammacakkapavattana Suttam). >>>>> EXCELLENT!!!! GOOD! If more DSG members were as wise as you in this regard! Remember the 5 faculties, part of which Anapanasati forms! > Please consult Mahasatipat.t.haana Suttam for complete range of > formal development of the Right Mindfulness, the Right > Concentration, and the Right Insight, starting with Aanaapaana > Pabbam. >>>> Anapanasati by itself as a proper practice can gain one to Awakening and to ALL rupa and immaterial attainments (dipa sutta) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn54/sn54.008.than.html "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference1 to completion. The four frames of reference, when developed & pursued, bring the seven factors for Awakening to completion. The seven factors for Awakening, when developed & pursued, bring clear knowing & release to completion. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn54/sn54.013.than.html > By the way, I have memorized, and regularly recite, Aanaapaana > Pabbam as a way of formal development of the Right Speech. Then, I > follow the Buddha's instructions in Aanaapaana Pabbam to formally > develop the Right Effort (Sammaavaayamo), the Right Mindfulness > (Sammaasati), the Right Concentration (Sammaasamaadhi), and the > Right Insight (Sammadi.t.thi, vipassanaa). >>>> Good! Actually while you are doing Anapanasati properly, you are fulfilling atleast ENTIRE Noble 8 fold path. > Mahaasatipa.t.thaana Suttam instructs us NOT ONLY to be in the > present moment, but also to prepare and practice for non-present > moments as well. >>>> Exactly. For example when you do cemetery (maranasati) contemplation, there you imagine yourself dead (future) just like the corpse in front of you. Furthermore, sati is also for remembering what was said and done long ago. For example one recollects the past states happening in (neither perception nor non perception immaterial state). (mn111) So both past and future are recollected AT APPROPRIATE TIMES OF COURSE. > Formal development of each component of the Noble Eightfold Path is > compulsory and NOT NEGOTIABLE. > > Cheers! > > Suan Lu Zaw > > www.bodhiolgy.org > SADHU SADHU SADHU! Lots of Metta, Alex #81892 From: "Alex" Date: Mon Jan 28, 2008 10:57 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Lessons in Detachment, Ch 5, no 2. truth_aerator Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > When there's trying to have sati, it indicates there's no awareness, no > understanding of what has arisen already, naturally. Instead there's > attachment and a subtle wrong practice of trying to have another dhamma arising now. >>> When you are trying to have more sati it indicates that A) You have some degree of mindfulness ALREADY in order to see that there isn't enough sati B) You have WISDOM in that you know that SATI is good and needs to be developed more. What you have said sounds like Makkhali Gosala's teaching wrapped in Buddhism! Buddha ON MANY OCCASIONS have stated about ENERGY, DETERMINATION (Adittana), Ardency, Heedfulness, Diligence. His path is for ENERGETIC ONES, not for the lazy. He had similies of a monk being like a warrior, he used similies of a monk even crying and being full of tears BUT NOT GIVING UP THE HOLY LIFE. His path often calls for DELIBERATE sense restraint, moderation in eating, renunciation (even to the point of shedding tears). None of this in any shape or form suggests that one is simply mindful of the present moment and let everything be as it is. If one does that, evil unwholesome states will simply grow. Tactful countermeasures are required for anyone, But the Arahant. While it is true that at SOME times, "mere observation" may be enough, at others ACTIVE INITIATIVE is required. Lots of Metta, Alex #81893 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 28, 2008 11:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] My recent meditation experiences. Thinking regarding slowing down o... nilovg Dear Dieter, thank you for the quotes. I do not disagree with what you write. I only think that for the development of metta bhaavanaa it is necessary to know when the citta is kusala and when it is akusala. One has to know the characteristic of metta in daily life, when one is with other people if one wants to develop it as a subject of samatha. I mention again what was mentioned here before. Ivan heard of a monk who was developing metta as subject of samatha, but when he was disturbed by others, he became angry. So he did not know the characteristic of mettacitta. Nina. Op 27-jan-2008, om 17:45 heeft Dieter Möller het volgende geschreven: > Because of its beauty I quote here the Metta Sutta (transl. by > T.B.) , which may be a very suitable approach by its recollection > at the beginning of a session... #81894 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 28, 2008 11:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Lessons in Detachment, Ch 5, no 2. nilovg Dear Scott and Mike, I think the word agitation points to samvega, a sense of urgency. One realizes that death can come any time, life is so short. Why not develop understanding right now, not putting it off? That is right effort already. Yes Mike, uddhacca accompanies all akusala cittas. Nina. Op 28-jan-2008, om 1:12 heeft m. nease het volgende geschreven: > No kidding--I suspect that 'agitated' here comes from 'phanditvaa' (or > some other form) rather than from 'uddhacca' which is often translated > as 'agitation'--but the latter is (if memory serves) a factor of all > (?) > unwholesome states (corrections welcome) and so unlikely to be a > precursor of right anything. #81895 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 28, 2008 11:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vis. CH XVIII, 23 nilovg Hi Larry, also in Vis. Ch XVII, it has been said several times that there is no experiencer. If there is no experiencer, how could there be selection of any object? Each page reminds us that there are only citta, cetasika and rupa, not speaking about nibbaana now. Nina. Op 28-jan-2008, om 1:21 heeft LBIDD@... het volgende geschreven: > Hi Sarah and Nina, > > Sarah: "If there's any idea of selection and choosing of an object, we > misunderstand the path of satipatthana." > > Larry: That is your idea and it has its merits, but I don't see it in > this chapter or anywhere in the Visuddhimagga or even the sutta > pitaka. > Do you? #81896 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 28, 2008 11:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] p.s. nilovg Dear Mike, they can be objects of understanding and then they do not obstruct. In fact they have to be objects of understanding. They have to be known as just dhammas. Nina. Op 28-jan-2008, om 1:52 heeft m. nease het volgende geschreven: > Just as an afterthought, it occurs to me that the > hindrances--including agitation--are hindrances to concentration, > not to > insight (or mindfulness? not sure). #81897 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 28, 2008 11:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Outline of Purification of View V.1 nilovg Hi Larry, may I butt in ? Just the dhammas that appear because of conditions are objects of sati and pa~n~naa. People are not the same, some may realize more dhammas, some less. The most important is: the eradication of wrong view and the other defilements. Even arahats are not the same. But they realized the truth to the extent necessary to eradicate all defilements. Nina. Op 28-jan-2008, om 1:54 heeft LBIDD@... het volgende geschreven: > That you disagree is fine, most people do. How many dhammas do you > think > are necessary to discern for this insight? #81898 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 28, 2008 12:06 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Outline of Purification of View V.7 nilovg Hi Larry, Op 28-jan-2008, om 2:23 heeft LBIDD@... het volgende geschreven: > I never realized before that clinging to becoming and > annihilation is the source of self view, or that simple recognition of > nama and rupa extinguishes that clinging. ------- N: I have heard that sakkaaya di.t.thi.personality view, conditions other wrong views like eternity belief and annihilation belief. What I do not understand: as to the separation of six objects, one can have annihilation belief, believing that visible object or sound breaks up, as we read in the text. I understand it with reference to no rebirth, but not so well with reference to each of the sense objects. They fall away anyway. Do you? Nina. #81899 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 28, 2008 12:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Theriigaathaa - Sisters (73) nilovg Dear Connie, we read so much about stories and situations, and now this really does me good to read about the khandhas, elements, aayatanas. Thank you. Nina. Op 28-jan-2008, om 13:41 heeft L G SAGE het volgende geschreven: > 472. The aggregates, the elements, [and] the sense bases (khandha- > dhaatu-aayatana.m) means: these five aggregates (khandhaa) > beginning with the material aggregate (ruupa-khandaadayo), these > eighteen elements (dhaatuyo) beginning with the eye element (cakkhu- > dhaatu-aadayo), [and] these twelve sense bases (dvaa- > dasaayatanaani) beginning with the sense base of the eye (cakkh'- > aayatanaadiini).* Thus, the aggregates, the elements, and the sense > bases - all these are conditioned state[s] because they are > produced through causes, coming into existence together, being > associated. Thus, the aggregates, the elements, and the sense bases > - all this arising of the phenomena of material form and immaterial > form is [a series of] conditioned state[s] through being produced > from conditions, coming into existence together, being associated. > These three - [the aggregates, the elements, and the senses bases] > - coming to be in this existence are painful. #81900 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jan 28, 2008 8:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Are thoughts vipaka? upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 1/28/2008 9:20:45 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Op 27-jan-2008, om 21:31 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > N: Vipaaka is the fruit of kamma which has ripened. > ----------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Yes. Specifically, a mindstate, right? One that had the kamma as a > condition for it? > ----------------------------------------------------- N: Yes. ------- > > N: Let us begin at the first moment of our life. Kamma produced our > birth, being born in this place from such parents, in such > surroundings. > ---------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > But do you not consider that entire scenario, the birth to particular > parents in a particular realm, in certain surroundings, and with > certain > physical and mental propensities mere convention? Or do you > consider the specific > rebirth citta, that specific mind state, to be the actual vipaka, > and for it > to "include" or "imply" all the rest? > ------------------------------------------------------ > N: > There was a first moment of life, this is a citta, > namely, vipaakacitta, the fruit produced by past kamma. > ----------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Ah, ok. But what about all the rest you mentioned? > ------------------------------------------------------ > N: When the child grows up there are the right conditions for such > or such sense-impressions, that is, other moments of vipaaka. The > surroundings fit the kamma that produced its birth. As we read in > the suttas: people are born poor or rich, with many illnesses or > few illnesses... Also, people are born with different capacities, with wisdom or without it. We can say, that the rebirth-consciousness vipaaka is like a reflection in a looking glass of the kamma that produced it. > ------------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > But so far, Nina, the only definition provided for 'kamma vipaka' is > "the fruit of kamma that has ripened." That is so vague as to be of > little use, > Nina. It is pretty much "just words". ------ N: I want to go step by step. There is no thinking yet. That comes later. ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: I don't follow this reply, Nina. I'm looking to find out exactly when mind state is defined to be the vipaka of a specific instance of cetana. -------------------------------------------------------- -------- > H: Should this not at least be tightened > up to "Any mind state that is the ripened fruit of kamma"? And if > that is okay > so far, still more needs to be said. In particular, are there mind > states > that arise with kamma as condition that are NOT "the ripened fruit > of kamma?" -------- N: Kamma-condition in the Patthaana: There are two kinds of kamma- condition: conascent kamma-condition and asynchronous kamma- condition. Cetanå which arises with each citta directs the tasks of the associated dhammas and conditions these dhammas by way of conascent kamma-condition, sahajåta kamma-paccaya. The cetanå which is kusala or akusala and which can produce the appropriate results of good deeds or bad deeds later on conditions that result by way of asynchronous kamma-condition, nånakkhaùika kamma-paccaya. ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: I understand the two different senses to cetana. That's not what I'm after. I wasn't clear enough when I asked "are there mind states that arise with kamma as condition that are NOT "the ripened fruit of kamma?" What I meant and should have asked was "are there mind states that arise having kamma as precondition that are NOT "the ripened fruit of kamma?" And by kamma, I do meaning "willing". That's what I'm after. ------------------------------------------------------- We are speaking mostly of the second one. Let us first speak of the second one. ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, I'm only interested in that at this point - preconditioning cetana. That is the cetana that the Buddha speaks of when speaking of kamma. -------------------------------------------------------- When the patisandhi-citta arises the accompanying cetanå conditions that citta, the other cetasikas and also the kamma-produced rúpa which arises at the same time by way of conascent kamma-condition (Patthåna, Faultless Triplet, Investigation Chapter, Kamma, § 427, vii b). Asynchronous kamma-condition, nåùakkhaùika kamma- paccaya, pertains to kusala cetanå or akusala cetanå which is able to produce later on results of good or evil deeds committed through body, speech and mind. ------------------------------------------------------------ Howard: So you speak here of deeds committed through body, speech, and mind. Those last two include speech and thought. That is what I have been saying can be vipaka. ------------------------------------------------------------- The cetanå, volition or intention, which motivates a good or bad deed falls away, but since each citta conditions the next one in the cycle of birth and death, the force of cetanå is accumulated from moment to moment so that it can produce result later on. It conditions the result in the form of vipåkacitta and specific rúpas of the body by way of asynchronous kamma-condition. ------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Okay. ----------------------------------------------------- When one, for example, slanders, there is akusala kamma through speech and this can produce akusala vipåka later on. ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Is it the speech that is the kamma, or the akusala intention that produces the speech that is the kamma. I vote for the intention. ----------------------------------------------------- The akusala cetanå or kamma conditions the vipåkacitta which arises later on by way of asynchronous kamma-condition. ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes. ------------------------------------------------------- At the same time, the akusala cetanå is related to the citta and cetasikas it accompanies and to speech intimation (vacíviññatti), a rúpa produced by citta, by way of conascent kamma-condition. Thus, cetanå is in different ways a condition for other phenomena. Next time about vipaakacittas in the course of life, such as seeing. -------- Nina. ============================ With metta, Howard #81901 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jan 28, 2008 9:14 am Subject: A Possible Resolution (Re: [dsg] Are thoughts vipaka?) upasaka_howard Hi again, Nina - In a message dated 1/28/2008 4:37:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@... writes: When one, for example, slanders, there is akusala kamma through speech and this can produce akusala vipåka later on. ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Is it the speech that is the kamma, or the akusala intention that produces the speech that is the kamma. I vote for the intention. ============================ This little piece of conversation has lit a light bulb in my head. I wonder whether the following makes sense, using speech as an example: The volition, akusala (say) to speak in a harsh way (say), has two categories of result: 1) the mind states underlying the resultant wrong speech, and 2) secondary unhappy mind states, possibly arising much later, that are the fruition of the original volition and its expression in thought and speech. The volition and the immediately resulting thought and speech activity, together, are the kamma, and the secondary unhappy states are the vipaka. If the intention to speak harshly doesn't lead to the speech action, it is still unwholesome kamma, but the vipaka is worsened if it does become so expressed. When the volition leads to action in body, mind, or speech, the volition and resulting action should be yoked together in our thinking as the kamma. If the foregoing is the correct way to think, then it boils down to the following definition: Kamma is volition paired with resulting action (if there is resulting action), and vipaka consists of subsequent mind states that are conditioned by these. With metta, Howard #81902 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Jan 28, 2008 2:42 pm Subject: Re: Hello im new member here. kenhowardau Hi Alex (and Suan), -------------- Suan: > > Aanapaanasati is my primary formal development of the Right > Concentration as a compulsory component of the Nobel Eightfold Path > (A.t.thangiko maggo as taught by the Buddha in his First Discourse, > Dhammacakkapavattana Suttam). Alex: > EXCELLENT!!!! GOOD! If more DSG members were as wise as you in this regard! --------------- Alex, I hope you are not reading too much into this sentence from Suan. At first glance it could give the impression (1) that anapanasati was mentioned in the First Dsicourse (2) that "formal development" was taught either in the First Discourse or somewhere else in the Tipitaka" and (3) that there is an argument somewhere (presumably at DSG) over whether or not right concentration was an integral component of magga-citta (the eightfold path of the noble ones). I don't think Suan meant to convey any of those meanings except for the very contentious one; namely, that formal development was taught *somewhere* in the Tipitaka. Ken H PS: I don't want to confuse the issue, but I might add that if Suan was right - and formal meditation was taught somewhere in the Tipitaka - then it wouldn't matter what false notions you read into the above sentence. In other words all Dhamma study would be a waste of time. If there could be just a little bit of control over conditioned dhammas (if rituals could be just a little bit efficacious) then anatta would be meaningless, and the entire Dhamma would be wrong. KH #81903 From: han tun Date: Mon Jan 28, 2008 3:27 pm Subject: Perfections Corner (80) hantun1 Dear All, This is the presentation in installment of The Perfections Leading to Enlightenment by Ajahn Sujin Boriharnwanaket; and translated by Nina van Gorkom. http://www.zolag.co.uk/ - Chapter 6: The Perfection of Patience (continuation) We read: "Although he is a wrong-doer now, in the past he was my benefactor." And: "A wrong-doer is also a benefactor, for he is the basis for developing patience." "All beings are like my own children. Who becomes angry over the misdeeds of his own children?" If we consider someone we are angry with as our child, can we continue to be angry with him? If we reflect on this we can see that what has been stated in the Commentary is true. We read: "All those phenomena by which wrong was done, and those to whom it was done--all those, at this very moment, have ceased.” Whoever may have done wrong to us or may have harmed us, his deeds have ceased at that moment, and therefore we should not continue to be angry. At this moment that person does not do wrong to us; we should not think of what is past already and continue to be angry. If we reflect on the truth in the right way, we shall understand that all those phenomena by which wrong was done, and those to whom it was done--all those, at this very moment, have ceased. We read: “With whom, then, should you now be angry, and by whom should anger be aroused? When all phenomena are non-self, who can do wrong to whom?" If someone has listened to the Dhamma he has more understanding than those who have not listened. Therefore, he should realize that it is not proper to be angry because someone else who has no understanding does something wrong. Why should he be angry with someone who lacks understanding? If he remembers this he accumulates the perfection of patience, he is not angry and he can forgive that person. We read: “When the wrong-doer is endowed with noble qualities, I should not be angry with him. When he does not have any noble qualities, then I should regard him with compassion. Because of anger my fame and noble qualities diminish, and to the pleasure of my enemies I become ugly, sleep in discomfort, etc." When a person is angry, his good reputation and noble qualities disappear. When because of anger he displays an improper conduct we can see the disadvantage of impatience and the benefit of the perfection of patience. To be continued. Han #81904 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Jan 28, 2008 8:17 am Subject: Natural Bliss! bhikkhu0 Friends: No Need: Friends, for the virtuous one, correctly behaving, completed in morality, there is no need to wish: “May I enjoy a clear conscienceâ€?, since the right action, of correct behaviour completed by purifying morality, naturally results in the arising of a clear conscience. Friends, for the moral one of clear conscience, there is no need to wish: “May gladness pervade meâ€?, since any clear conscience spontaneously is followed by the appearance of joyous gladness! Friends, for the glad one there is no need to wish: “May rapture thrill meâ€?, since gladness automatically excites exalted rapture. Friends, for the enraptured one there is no need to wish: “May calm tranquillity still meâ€?, since rapture inherently simply evaporates all urge and frustrated restlessness. Friends, for one dwelling in serene tranquillity there is no need to wish: “May pleasure perfuse meâ€?, since abiding calmly in tranquil ease all by itself, makes one delight in pleasure. Friends, for one perfused by pleasure there is no need to wish: “May I be absorbed in concentrationâ€?, since a mind filled with pleasure effortlessly & smoothly condenses into a single focused unification! Friends, for one concentrated there is no need to wish: “May I understand reality as it actually developsâ€?, since the undistracted concentrated mind efficiently penetrates phenomena & causes as they really are. Friends, for one knowing & seeing reality there is no need to wish: “May disgusted disillusion detach meâ€?, since seeing reality & knowing how it always becomes, induces detachment by disgusted disillusion. Friends, for one detached by disillusion there is no need to wish: “May I realize final mental release through absolute knowledge & visionâ€?, since such disgusted disillusion, friends, naturally, readily, easily, essentially & characteristically culminates in the matchless, unsurpassable & supreme releasing liberation by complete knowledge & vision. Yeah, so mighty is morality! Source: The Numerical Sayings of the Buddha: Anguttara Nikaya V 2-3 Friendship is the Greatest * Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka :-) ..... #81905 From: han tun Date: Mon Jan 28, 2008 3:45 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Corner (80) hantun1 Dear Sarah, Nina, Connie and All, I find the chapter on Patience full of useful reminders to note. For example, from the installment Perfections Corner (80), I have noted the following: "Although he is a wrong-doer now, in the past he was my benefactor." And: "A wrong-doer is also a benefactor, for he is the basis for developing patience." "All beings are like my own children. Who becomes angry over the misdeeds of his own children?" "All those phenomena by which wrong was done, and those to whom it was done--all those, at this very moment, have ceased.” “With whom, then, should you now be angry, and by whom should anger be aroused? When all phenomena are non-self, who can do wrong to whom?" “When the wrong-doer is endowed with noble qualities, I should not be angry with him. When he does not have any noble qualities, then I should regard him with compassion. There are many such reminders in the previous installments, and the installments to come. Being fully aware of my impatient nature, I am happy that I have selected this chapter. Respectfully, Han #81906 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jan 28, 2008 10:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Hello im new member here. upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 1/28/2008 5:42:28 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi Alex (and Suan), -------------- Suan: > > Aanapaanasati is my primary formal development of the Right > Concentration as a compulsory component of the Nobel Eightfold Path > (A.t.thangiko maggo as taught by the Buddha in his First Discourse, > Dhammacakkapavattana Suttam). Alex: > EXCELLENT!!!! GOOD! If more DSG members were as wise as you in this regard! --------------- Alex, I hope you are not reading too much into this sentence from Suan. At first glance it could give the impression (1) that anapanasati was mentioned in the First Dsicourse (2) that "formal development" was taught either in the First Discourse or somewhere else in the Tipitaka" and (3) that there is an argument somewhere (presumably at DSG) over whether or not right concentration was an integral component of magga-citta (the eightfold path of the noble ones). I don't think Suan meant to convey any of those meanings except for the very contentious one; namely, that formal development was taught *somewhere* in the Tipitaka. Ken H PS: I don't want to confuse the issue, but I might add that if Suan was right - and formal meditation was taught somewhere in the Tipitaka - then it wouldn't matter what false notions you read into the above sentence. In other words all Dhamma study would be a waste of time. If there could be just a little bit of control over conditioned dhammas (if rituals could be just a little bit efficacious) then anatta would be meaningless, and the entire Dhamma would be wrong. KH ================================ Ken, sometimes it's prudent to be not entirely certain of one's beliefs. (Not clinging to belief is good, anyway, hmm?) If you are wrong, and of course I believe you are, then there is the possibility that you are slandering the Buddha. Worth at least an iota of consideration, don't you think? With metta, Howard #81907 From: "colette" Date: Mon Jan 28, 2008 7:56 am Subject: Reverb ksheri3 Good Morning Scott, > I'm glad to read you. I hope you are well. > colette: I'm verticle. Being "well" is such a subjective concept and how relative can ya get? THIS COULD BE A NEW THREAD: Last night I noticed in my meditations that I tend to go into my meditations lately with the direct analysis and confusion concerning my roomates that I'm lucky enough to have. The meditation has started routinely now in awe of the hatred and anger my roomates wake up with and go to sleep with, TOWARDS ME as if I was the cause of all their suffering and that they, in their infinate power and wisdom have the ability to create a world where everybody and everything is under their direction. Stick with me here. Their anger is found through their confrontations with suffering which we know and accept as being a foundational aspect of living. I have been recently theorising that THEY actually believe that no other people suffer, as if being Middle-class will somehow cure their suffering. All they have to do to achieve that is to have certain baubles and trinkets as status symbolism which will somehow take away all their suffering and aggrivations. Then I began theorizing that maybe it's because everybody else does not suffer EXACTLY the way they suffer which means that in order for them to be happy and without suffering THEY then have to have a world in which all people suffer the way they suffer and because of their omnipotence (delusions) they will then be happy to know that their wisdom has given them the ability to control ALL SUFFERING and raise their opinion of their self FAR ABOVE THE MIDDLE-CLASS society that they exist to gratify. What they are actually doing is competing with pre-conceived delusions that society has created. What is sooooooooo impossible to believe yet is soooooooo blatantly obvious is that they actually see these "group insanities" (see group behavior and group think) are the real world. there is no way possible for them to achieve the samadhi that they live to achieve since they cannot even breathe oxygen without hating that they are forced to actually breathe and take the responsibility for breathing. there is an entire host of other ways of attacking the problems faced by my roomates but that's not our concern right now. Lets be of good cheer and conduct our own business without paying too much attention to the petri dish my roomates live in and their hallucinations that I do not live in the exact same petri dish or that any other person does not live in the exact same petri dish. Now back to our little chit chat. ---------------------------------------- > > Scott: Beautiful. colette: Thanx! I had doubts that any person would or could stay with me on that Yoga of Thought. ----------------------------------- I am perhaps a CHIMERIC EPIPHENOMENON of the > BLISSED-OUT STATE. colette: WOW, a simple google search and only reading a single line of the definitions given, of chimeric epiphenonmenon showed your mindfulness and depth into this form of study! --------------------------------------------- Mutual Polarisation and the Manifestation of the > OTHER. Perhaps Alex Created me, since I dove in to respond, but I > fear not. > colette: EXACTLY what I was thinking when I created my reply: as I wrote that you were creating Alex through and in your pre-conceptions I was asking myself if I could be sure that you were creating Alex or maybe Alex was creating you. Your reply above is CERTAINLY GOING TO BE A TOPIC OF MEDITATIONS since you characterize terminology that I've been using to characterize similar rationalities. For instance, in my lack of mathematical education I use what I got which means that I try to view "the actions of others" as the means they apply to creating a "COMMON DENOMINATOR", foundation. Thanx for the new perspective. ------------------------------------------- > Why should another's ACID TRIP be any of my affair? colette: THAT'S A WINNER! Now you not only date yourself, potentially being from my generation but you go where I have lots of 1970s EXPERIENCE from and where angels fear to tread: LSD, ACID, SANDOZ (or something like that), or T.Leary's book based on The Tibetan Book of the Dead called THE PSYCHDELIC EXPERIENCE. You also formulate the the thought of that specific confusion that society is perplexed by which totally xeroxed, mimiographed, copied, duplicated, the experience of an Acid Trip. HEYYYYY, wait a minute, this is another gift you've given me since I've never thought of applying the consciousness of a "tripper" on acid to the reality I'm faced with every day every second; it is very possible that I am forced to deal with a society of people that do not recognize that they are the ones "trippin'" -- in their mis-cognizition or Miss Interpretation of the reality that exists they have subordinated the truth of their hallucinatory experience as the norm and have conginzed the hallucination as a status quo. THAT'S IT! YOU'VE DONE IT! YOU HAVE BROUGHT BACK THE ALBUM: "Life in the Food Chain" by Tonio K: "It's an american love affair. It's an american dream. Somebody said that's every-where. Nobodies sure what it means. But it you wake up with your mind on fire. Too frieghtened even to scream. It's just an american love affair. Just an american dreammmmmmmmmmmmmmmm Sweet REbecca, she's a go-getter. She'll tell you that she loves you for a price. " blah blah blah. ----------------------------- Unless it is > transformed into a shimmering wall of effect-laden guitar sound, WHO > CARES? colette: now this certainly brings back the memories of my youth: feedback, both audio and video, reverb, distortion, the ole ECHO- PLEX, the good ole WA-WA PEDAL and/or the mouth piece that Peter Frampton brought out through the cd Frampton Comes Alive. Our hosts here have done something with your wording since they placed the word "WHO" on the right side then "CARES" on the left side which adds so much more to your post. Again, is it Alex or is it Scott, did our hosts here perform the trick of placement of words and letters or did you, Scott, intentionally place the letters and words that way? ----------------------------------- > And even then I'm just CLINGING and CRAVING. colette: ah, "confession is good for the soul", so it is true that you, scott, actually had the hallucinationthat manifested Alex and not the other way around since if it was Alex creating you then the confession would have read that "the other person" Alex, was doing the Clinging and Craving. I appreciate honesty which happens to be just as relative and just as subjective as truth. -------------- > > c: "thanx for putting up with that diatribe, that rant and rave." > > Scott: Never a problem, colette. Stay cool, keep warm. colette: warmth in the cooler I live in, the basement with concreate foundational walls & floor, is certainly NOT VERY WARM. Have a good one. Off to do some research. toodles, colette #81908 From: "Alex" Date: Mon Jan 28, 2008 4:25 pm Subject: Re: Hello im new member here. truth_aerator Hi Ken, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: (2) that "formal > development" was taught either in the First Discourse or somewhere > else in the >>> Please define what you mean by "formal". (3) that there is an argument somewhere > (presumably at DSG) over whether or not right concentration was an > integral component of magga-citta (the eightfold path of the noble > ones). >>>> Somewhere in AN book of 3's it is said about 3 aggregates (sila, samadhi, panna) A sotapanna masters Sila and develops samadhi/panna to moderate degree. An anagamin masters sila & SAMADHI and has moderate panna An Arahant has fully mastered ALL three. >>> In other words all Dhamma study would be a > waste of time. >>>> Dhamma study is a MUST for stream entry. But please don't forget the other important parts too. >>> If there could be just a little bit of control over > conditioned dhammas >>>>> THERE IS SELF AGENCY AND OTHER AGENCY/. --- Book of 6s page 237 (volume 3 Gradual Saying E.M. Hare) text iii, 355, VI, IV, 38 viii (38). Self-acting. "This Master Gotama, is my avowal, this my view: There is no self- agency; no other-agency' Never, brahmin, have I seen or heard of such an avowal, such a view, Pray, how can one step onwards, how can one step back, yet say: There is no self-agency; there is no other-agency? "What think you, brahman, is there such a thing as initiative? 'Yes, sir." 'That being so, are men known to initiate?' 'Yes, sir' 'Well brahman, since there is initiative and men are known to initiate, this is among men the self-agency, this is other agency. What think you, brahmanm is there such a thing as stepping away... stepping forth... halting... standing... and stepping toward anything?' 'Yes, sir' 'That being so, are men known to do all these things?' 'Yes, sir." 'Well, brahmin, since there are such a thing as stepping away, stepping forth and the rest, and men are known to do these things, this is among men the self-agency, this is other-agency. Never, brahman, have I seen or heard of such an avowal, such a view as yours. Pray, how can one step onwards, step back and say: There is no self-agency, there is no other-agency? 'This indeed is wonderful, Master Gotama...! And henceforth, till life ends, I will go to Master Gotama for help.' >> (if rituals could be just a little bit efficacious) then anatta would be meaningless, and the entire Dhamma would be wrong. > > KH > If meditation is a ritual for YOU, then it is YOUR problem. I personally lost a fetter for rituals A LONG TIME AGO (~May, 2004 actually. That moment, that session I cannot forget) after a certain very deep meditation. I was HEAVY on rituals before, but not after May 2004 when I've totally destroyed that fetter. I know, it took me about 5 month of daily meditation & semi-physical seclusion... Personally, for me, Bhavana or meditation is NOT a ritual. I am sorry if it is for you. Lots of Metta, Alex #81909 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Jan 28, 2008 5:09 pm Subject: Outline of Purification of View V.8 lbidd2 Hi all, This last section is concerned with the interdependence of mentality and materiality. 32. And this [interdependence] should be explained not only by means of the simile of the marionette, but also by means of the analogies of the sheaves of reeds and so on.For just as when two sheaves of reeds are propped one against the other, each one gives the other consolidating support, and when one falls the other falls, so too, in the five-constituent becoming mentality-materiality occurs as an interdependent state, each of its components giving the other consolidating support, and when one falls owing to death, the other falls too. 34. Furthermore, mentality has no efficient power, it cannot occur by its own efficient power. It does not eat, it does not drink, it does not speak, it does not adopt postures. And materiality is without efficient power; it cannot occur by its own efficient power. For it has no desire to eat, it has no desire to drink, it has no desire to speak, it has no desire to adopt postures. But rather it is when supported by materiality that mentality occurs; and it is when supported by mentality that materiality occurs. When mentality has the desire to eat, the desire to drink, the desire to speak, the desire to adopt a posture, it is materiality that eats, drinks, speaks and adopts a posture. Larry: We can see that all there is is mentality-materiality and further that mentality and materiality are interdependent, neither able to function independently. Each in itself is weak and feeble. 37. The correct vision of mentality and materiality, which, after defining mentality-materiality by those various methods, has been established on the plane of non-confusion by overcoming the perception of a being, is what should be understood as purification of view. Other terms for it are 'defining of mentality-materiality' and 'delimitation of formations'. Larry #81910 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Jan 28, 2008 5:10 pm Subject: Re: Alone with Dhamma, Ch 2, no 1. philofillet Hi Nina and all > It was > impressive to hear the Pali text so well recited. > When we asked them about the meaning of kusala cittas and akusala > cittas in daily life they could not answer our questions. Their > teacher explained that the application of the Dhamma was a subject > dealt with in the higher grades, not in the beginning. Did he say application of the Dhamma or application of the Abhidhamma? I think you were too aggressive asking these boys about the meaning of kusala citta and akusala citta in daily life. On one hand A. Sujin talks about the importance of pariyatti, about how people have a tendency to want to get to the heart of the Buddha's teaching too fast, and on the other hand she is asking boys on the spot to tell her about their understanding of cittas in daily life. This is a perfect example of the inconsistency (which you will deny) of her approach. It is too soon for me to talk about cetasikas in daily life without gross speculation. Patience, A. Sujin, patience! This shows > that reciting and learning the terms by heart is very different from > applying them in daily life. The understanding of the realities of > daily life is the purpose of studying Abhidhamma. Patience! Telling people to do this is unwise in my opinion. Our panna is far too weak for this sort of thing. She wants to have these boys walking around trying to grasp the experience of cetasikas in daily life (and how much self is surely involved in that operation?) but would deny them the opportunity to watch the mind at work through meditation because of self involved. :( I love reading A. Sujin on Abhidhamma theory but when she talks about applying this understanding of theory in daily life she is just conditioning a lot of overshooting, in my opinion. But I guess I've said this before often enough. I should probably stop reading those posts of yours, Nina, which seem like adulation of A. Sujin (the Thai Abbot who says "what would we do without A. Sujin?" for example - well, Thai Abbot, we could always study the Buddha's teaching without her help...it is possible.) I know you deeply appreciate her and I should just feel mudita and shut up. One of these days I will learn, but not yet I guess. But I really, really disliked that anecdote about her harassing those diligent boys in the neckties. Sorry. Metta, Phil #81911 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Jan 28, 2008 5:14 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] No convincing explanation ..[was Alleged Slowing Down..] dhammanusara Dear Dieter, - I wrote: > > T: If you cannot get help from the Abhidhamma but only confusion in the Suttas, then it is a good idea to stop the discussion. We have hit a dead-end. > > D: no confusion in the suttas ..only in respect to later texts..e.g. Abhidhamma. > My understanding of Theravada is given within the framework of the former incl. the Vinaya Pitaka , which in doubt is the judge. > But I respect Abhidhamma to be part of the Tipitaka. > So I am not clear to what you are refering by 'hit a dead-end': > to my suggestion to leave nibbana out of discussion or stopping our exchange in general because you stick to Abhidhamma? (no problem either way..) > T: No, not anything like that. I thought the 'dead-end' was arrived because you believed that Nibbana as a 'nama' was also included in the khandhas. Because I understand Nibbana as asankhata dhamma that is separate from the khandhas, therefore the discussion should stop. Perhaps the previous dialogues help summarize the point. But I may very well have misunderstood your terse reply in #81889. # 81889 ---------- > >Tep: Nibbana is not in the khandhas, so Nibbana is not a nama. >D: yes, nibbana isn't conditioned .... I only wanted to emphasize that one should be careful when considering ' groupings' .. up to now I found no convincing explanation that in Abh. under the umbrella of Paramattha Dhammas nibbana is mentioned besides the khandas..) > >Tep: What did you expect to see? ' > > D: limitation to the khandas .. > or to speak with Wittgenstein: "Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent." > --------- I thought by quoting Wittgenstein, you were suggesting that I should stop talking! BTW I always think of the Abhidhamma(e.g. the Dhammasangani) as the important resource to help me get deeper and broader understanding of the dhammas, whenever the Suttanata-pitaka does not give me enough details. But since you do not see "convincing explanation" in the Abhidhamma-pitaka, that is a dead-end of this discussion on nama-rupa and Nibbana. I just say that as a fact, and there is no emotion involved ! Tep === #81912 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Jan 28, 2008 5:15 pm Subject: Re: wow!!! philofillet Hi James and Howard > James: This sounds like the meditation "Recollection of Virtue". The > Buddha taught this meditation and it can result in suppression of the > hindrances. According to the Vism., it can result in access > concentration, that concentration just prior to the first jhana. Thanks. I looked into it. It really felt along that line. > > > > One interesting thing about this is the way it came from that > > good state of mind that came from reading Nina's post and reflecting > > on my post on abstinence. > > James: Yeah, that is definitely Recollection of Virtue. And since > virtue is very important to you (because of past transgressions) this > type of meditation would be very powerful. Interesting. Thanks. And thanks to you too, Howard, for your encouragement. I'll look more into this section of Vism and perhaps ask questions. Metta, Phil #81913 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Jan 28, 2008 5:25 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vis. CH XVIII, 23 lbidd2 Hi Sarah, Sarah: "It [the mundane path] is not a striving, selection or choice of some other fantasy object." Larry: Adverting again and again to a particular kind of paramattha dhamma isn't striving for a fantasy object. It is striving for understanding of reality. See Vism.XIV,3: "Understanding ... brings about by endeavouring, the manifestation of the path." Isn't going to dhamma talks again and again a striving for understanding? Larry #81914 From: "Alex" Date: Mon Jan 28, 2008 5:41 pm Subject: Re: wow!!! truth_aerator Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > I don't see the real meaning/vale of jhanas (if it was jhanas) > unless one is able to enter it often and use it as a foundation for > understanding, but it certainly was a cool experience! It actually > happened once before to a less sensational degree last winter, but I didn't post about it then. >>>> First time I had a very interesting and DEEP Meditation experience was in ~May, 2004 (correction: June 4th, 2004 very early morning < 7:10 am) . Before that I was heavy into rituals. Not after that particular sit. I've simply lost a fetter (for rites & rituals) in that sit and seen very generally (and imperfectly) DO. It took me 5-6 month or so of semi-physical seclusion... But nonetheless it was WELL WORTH IT. > One interesting thing about this is the way it came from that > good state of mind that came from reading Nina's post and reflecting on my post on abstinence. >>>> Sometimes I get into very peaceful states after reading some inspiration sutta. >>>> > Also interesting that I felt irritated last night when it didn't > happen again, and kind of hungover today from not getting it, >>>> When you manage to have it every day, you get hooked and NO hangover... Of course, lots of things have to be sacrificed... But it is WORTH IT. >>> > whereas yesterday, after it happened, I was completely blissed out > right through the day. I can certainly see from this how people > could get addicted to jhanas as an end in itself. (Even if my > experience wasn't actually jhanas.) >>>> No kidding! The bliss, oh bliss! Reading the similies in suttas such as MN119... Well, thank you Lord (Buddha of course) for the teaching. Jhanas (with Right View) are CRUCIAL. Especially for later stages. Remembering my experience after which I've lost a fetter forever, I see the value myself. I am patiently waiting for other fetters to go bye bye and to master things such as prolonging deep meditation states, being able to come out at predetermined time, and go deeper. Somewhere in AN book of 3's it is said about 3 aggregates (sila, samadhi, panna) A sotapanna masters Sila and develops samadhi/panna to moderate degree. An anagamin masters sila & SAMADHI and has moderate panna An Arahant has fully mastered ALL three. Thus you see the importance of samma-samadhi. In any case, you need good Kamma, and samma-samadhi IS very good Kamma helpful for breakthrough's. Lots of Metta, Alex #81915 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Jan 28, 2008 5:41 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Outline of Purification of View V.4 lbidd2 Hi Sarah, Sarah: "I don't remember ever agreeing to 'outline the chapter in a rather detailed way and so on', lol!" Larry: Well, as I recall, it was your idea to give Htoo's email a thorough explanation. That's what all this outlining business is all about: thoroughness. I wish you would reconsider. It is really an excellent way to study the Visuddhimagga, but I feel if you, as an exemplary person, can't make such a commitment, who else will? This is for your own benefit and the benefit of others. Please set a good example! It's only one chapter, for heaven's sake. Larry #81916 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Jan 28, 2008 5:47 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Wife as object of awareness philofillet Hi Sarah I fell behind on this one. Also on the one about form and visible object which still interests me. > I'm interested to explore your phrase of the month,"attabhavapatilabho", (snip) > > S: As you've mentioned, it is referred to in SN 19:1: > > "That being, bhikkhus, used to be a cattle butcher in this same Raajagaha. > Having been tormented in hell for many years, for many hundred s of years, > for many thousands of years, for many hundreds of thousands of years as a > result of that kamma, as a residual result of that same kamma he is > experiencing such a form [S: a ghost in the form of a skeleton] of > individual existence (attabhaavapa.tilaabho)." > > The same phrase was used in the preceding paragraph and B.Bodhi gave a > note on it which you referred to: > > BB: "The expression 'attabhaapa.tilaabho', which literally means > "acquisition of selfhood," is used idiomatically to denote a concrete form > of individual identity..." > > S: In absolute terms, there is no Phil, no wife and no skeleton ghost. > However, with or without understanding we refer conventionally to the > accumulations and various combination of khandhas as 'Phil' or the > 'skeleton ghost' or the particular 'individual existence' in that life. Ph: There is something in this term attabhavapatthilabho that gets at the way these khandas clinging together in a consistent way. I mean "various combinations of khandas" could arise and fall with no consistence, but with attabhavapatthilabho they stick together in a way that makes a Phil. So "no Phil" doesn't seem true, and Phil truly exists isn't true...so the truth is somewhere in between that, but no rushing insight on that one! > > I've referred to a note on the same phrase in another sutta which you may > be interested to look at. (The following is extracted from my earlier > posts , #18926 and #31885). (snip) > S: So there are the two meanings of 'living alone'.For some by inclination > or natural tendency (pakati) they will live alone in the first sense like > Thera. However, we all have to learn to live alone without 'desire and > lust' regardless of whether we're in the forest or the village, alone or > with others. > P: OK, I didn't quite follow where this came from, but that's cool. I know you are very interested in this interpretation of "seclusion" and I have said that I disagree because the more typical meaning of seclusion is so predominant in the suttanta. For example, I have recently come across the phrase "withdraw in body and in mind" - It seems you are keen on the "withdraw in mind" aspect but might be denying the importance of "withdraw in body", the more typical meaning of "seclusion" in the physical sense. As I've said quite often recently I appreciate you and Nina and other students of A.S for providing such a non-conventional (by modern standards) paramattha approach to considering the texts. Personally I feel that I want to go very, very gradually with paramattha matters but reading friends express interest in that approach is helpful. (As long as I don't get cross at them and insult their beloved teacher, which is wrong speech.) Metta, Phil #81917 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Jan 28, 2008 5:55 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vis. CH XVIII, 23 lbidd2 Hi Nina, Nina: "If there is no experiencer, how could there be selection of any object?" Larry: There is selecting but no selecter. Larry #81918 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Jan 28, 2008 6:00 pm Subject: Re: wow!!! philofillet Hi Alex > > whereas yesterday, after it happened, I was completely blissed out > > right through the day. I can certainly see from this how people > > could get addicted to jhanas as an end in itself. (Even if my > > experience wasn't actually jhanas.) > >>>> > > No kidding! The bliss, oh bliss! Really! This was beautifully still and calm. You know, I've done every psychodelic drug on earth in my teens and 20s, experimented with all kinds of new age visualization in my 30s, have spent a lot of time experiment with various kinds of ecstasies. This one was calmer, steadier, stiller, less physical than any other I've had, could be maintained... Anyways, thanks for the encouragement. I think I've said as much as there is to say on this interesting experience. Metta, Phil #81919 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Jan 28, 2008 6:10 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Outline of Purification of View V.1 lbidd2 Hi Nina, Nina: "Just the dhammas that appear because of conditions are objects of sati and pa~n~naa. People are not the same, some may realize more dhammas, some less. The most important is: the eradication of wrong view and the other defilements. Even arahats are not the same. But they realized the truth to the extent necessary to eradicate all defilements. Nina. Op 28-jan-2008, om 1:54 heeft LBIDD@... het volgende geschreven: That you disagree is fine, most people do. How many dhammas do you think are necessary to discern for this insight?" Larry: I agree. People are not the same and I must say this first purification practice does seem to be designed for abhidhammikas, but maybe not you. I mentioned before that the practice of the four foundations of mindfulness has significant differences with respect to object, and there is nothing to say there couldn't be other conceptual structures as long as the recognition of realities is present. My only point was that it is okay to say, "this isn't for me, but maybe I can learn something from it anyway". Larry #81920 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon Jan 28, 2008 6:11 pm Subject: Re: Alone with Dhamma, Ch 2, no 1. rjkjp1 Dear Phil You appreciate those boys reciting the difficult Pali from the Dhammasangani, which detail all cetasikas. But you object to Khun Sujin asking them about the meaning/application of the very words they were reciting. Hard for me to see why this is wrong, but then we have such a different idea of what Dhamma is. I wonder why you think the Buddha taught Abhidhamma, is it for reciting or for the study of the present moment. Ivan was saying to me recently how, after 35 years living in bangkok, he has seen hundreds of people come and go. The only ones that last are those who see the value of seeing into the present moment. All the rest are looking for something else and drift away sooner or later. I think you will find this happens: eventually the energy you get from trying to 'correct' Nina and Khun Sujin will be replaced by another obsession and this one will seem less important. Robert In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > > Hi Nina and all > > Did he say application of the Dhamma or application of the > Abhidhamma? I think you were too aggressive asking these boys about > the meaning of kusala citta and akusala citta in daily life. On one > hand A. Sujin talks about the importance of pariyatti, about how > people have a tendency to want to get to the heart of the Buddha's > teaching too fast, and on the other hand she is asking boys on the > spot to tell her about their understanding of cittas in daily life. > This is a perfect example of the inconsistency (which you will deny) > of her approach. It is too soon for me to talk about cetasikas in > daily life without gross speculation. Patience, A. Sujin, patience! > > This shows > > that reciting and learning the terms by heart is very different > from > > applying them in daily life. The understanding of the realities > of > > daily life is the purpose of studying Abhidhamma. > > > Patience! Telling people to do this is unwise I really, really > disliked that anecdote about her harassing those diligent boys in > the neckties. Sorry. > > Metta, > > Phil > #81921 From: "Alex" Date: Mon Jan 28, 2008 6:25 pm Subject: Re: wow!!! truth_aerator Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > Hi Alex > > > > whereas yesterday, after it happened, I was completely blissed > out > > > right through the day. I can certainly see from this how people > > > could get addicted to jhanas as an end in itself. (Even if my > > > experience wasn't actually jhanas.) > > >>>> > > > > No kidding! The bliss, oh bliss! > > Really! This was beautifully still and calm. You know, I've done > every psychodelic drug on earth in my teens and 20s, experimented > with all kinds of new age visualization in my 30s, have spent a lot > of time experiment with various kinds of ecstasies. This one was > calmer, steadier, stiller, less physical than any other I've had, > could be maintained... > > Anyways, thanks for the encouragement. I think I've said as much > as there is to say on this interesting experience. > > Metta, > > Phil >>>> You have experienced this new state once (or few times), this shows that you can have it again. DO IT! I was SO EXCITED after a first such state so your post isn't surprising. I had a HOOOGEEE wow. I hope so did you. Regular practice, keeping the precepts, training in sense restraint, is important! As Nike slogan goes: "Just do it!" Lots of Metta, Alex #81922 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Jan 28, 2008 6:29 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Outline of Purification of View V.7 lbidd2 Hi Nina, Nina; "I have heard that sakkaaya di.t.thi.personality view, conditions other wrong views like eternity belief and annihilation belief. What I do not understand: as to the separation of six objects, one can have annihilation belief, believing that visible object or sound breaks up, as we read in the text. I understand it with reference to no rebirth, but not so well with reference to each of the sense objects. They fall away anyway. Do you?" Larry: Good point. It never occured to me. My first thought is that eternity belief and annihilation belief are personal and only about sense objects if we identify with them, thinking "I am this appearance", or "this hat is mine". I don't know. I'll have to think about it some more. Larry #81923 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Jan 28, 2008 6:51 pm Subject: Re: Alone with Dhamma, Ch 2, no 1. philofillet Hi Robert > You appreciate those boys reciting the difficult Pali from the > Dhammasangani, which detail all cetasikas. But you object to Khun > Sujin asking them about the meaning/application of the very words > they were reciting. Hard for me to see why this is wrong, but then > we have such a different idea of what Dhamma is. I wonder why you > think the Buddha taught Abhidhamma, is it for reciting or for the > study of the present moment. Maybe I misunderstand, but for me Abhidhamma represents the deepest description of understanding reality, and must be grown into very, very gradually. Thus, memorizing the listing, the details is a valuable start. To what degree our panna grows into a more direct understanding, who knows? But to be trying to know present realities that we know, according to Abhidhamma, rise and fall away a million times a second.... ...so what is the point of Abhidhamma? I guess I have to think more about that. It is very beautiful, that's for sure. But to insist on understanding daily life in its light is premature. Well, as long as it is acknowledged that the present moment is *all* thinking about dhammas rather than knowing them, I guess I can see that. I would be happy if A. Sujin changed "knowing present realities" to "thinking about present realities." That would represent a better picture of where we're at. And I imagine she wouldn't deny that.... > > Ivan was saying to me recently how, after 35 years living in > bangkok, he has seen hundreds of people come and go. The only ones > that last are those who see the value of seeing into the present > moment. All the rest are looking for something else and drift away > sooner or later. I think you will find this happens: eventually the > energy you get from trying to 'correct' Nina and Khun Sujin will be > replaced by another obsession and this one will seem less important. Well, I see it in a more positive light.Different people find different ways to grow into the Buddha's teaching which, as you know, was taught in order to help different people in different ways. It seems to me A. Sujin sometimes fails to understand this and therefore teaches a very ungenerous approach to Dhamma in which everyone who doesn't see it in her way is wrong. Not everyone has the conditions to understand "present realities" but *no one* need be deprived of the Buddha's wonderful teaching for this reason. And one more thing - this idea that all suttas are about knowing present realities. Wrong! Just plain wrong! Really, you guys have to acknowledge this or you will continue in denial. Sorry to be so blunt, not that you will care since I am just against demonstrating my failure to See the Light a la you guys. Metta, Phil #81924 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Jan 28, 2008 7:22 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Hello im new member here. kenhowardau Hi Howard, ------------- H: > Ken, sometimes it's prudent to be not entirely certain of one's beliefs. (Not clinging to belief is good, anyway, hmm?) If you are wrong, and of course I believe you are, then there is the possibility that you are slandering the Buddha. Worth at least an iota of consideration, don't you think? -------------- The same must apply to you to you, mustn't it? If you are wrong then you are the one doing the slandering. That's the risk we take. I know you mean well, but I don't consider my posts inappropriate. Thanks anyway. Ken H PS: While we're handing out warnings: maybe you should think carefully before putting your own sutta translations above those of the ancient Theras. (?) Just a thought. :-) #81925 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Jan 28, 2008 7:22 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Are thoughts vipaka? lbidd2 Hi Elaine and Howard, I asked whether speech is kamma or vipaka as a way to coax you into reasoning speech must be kamma because there is right and wrong speech and since discursive thought is basically talking to oneself, therefore it must be kamma also. However, this tactic failed because you both gave examples of speech and thought that couldn't really have a kamma result, and you quite reasonably reasoned that those examples must therefore be kamma result. Abhidhamma has a different way of reckoning this, but it isn't something that you could reason from experience, or probably the suttas either. Abhidhamma says the 5 sense consciousnesses as they arise in this life are the results of kamma committed in previous lives. Along with that goes bodily feeling. Everything else that we notice, except rupa, is kamma. That includes speaking and thinking, but hearing speech is kamma result; understanding speech is kamma. There are other things that are kamma result, but they are generally so subtle we don't notice them. Also bodily rupas are kamma produced. However, I am using "kamma" in a loose sense here to include both volition (any act of body speech or mind) and volition that produces kamma result in the next life, called "kamma pattha" ("course of action"). These are extreme good or bad actions: murder, extreme hatred, faith, insight, etc. That's the story in a nut shell. It may be a little unsatisfying, but I don't think you will find a detailed account in the suttas. Larry #81926 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Jan 28, 2008 7:56 pm Subject: Re: Buddha refutes no self-agency, no other-agency, no initiative! scottduncan2 Dear Alex, I've added the Paa.li for the sutta you reference: The Gradual Sayings Vol.3 Book of 6s page 237 text iii, 355, VI, IV, 38 viii (38). Self-acting. "This Master Gotama, is my avowal, this my view: There is no self- agency; no other-agency' [natthi attakaaro, natthi parakaaroti] Never, brahmin, have I seen or heard of such an avowal, such a view, Pray, how can one step onwards, how can one step back, yet say: There is no self-agency; there is no other-agency? "What think you, brahman, is there such a thing as initiative? [aarambhadhaatuuti] 'Yes, sir." 'That being so, are men known to initiate?' 'Yes, sir' 'Well brahman, since there is initiative and men are known to initiate, this is among men the self-agency, this is other agency. What think you, brahmanm is there such a thing as stepping away... stepping forth... halting... standing... and stepping toward anything?' 'Yes, sir' 'That being so, are men known to do all these things?' 'Yes, sir." 'Well, brahmin, since there are such a thing as stepping away, stepping forth and the rest, and men are known to do these things, this is among men the self-agency, this is other-agency. Never, brahman, have I seen or heard of such an avowal, such a view as yours. Pray, how can one step onwards, step back and say: There is no self-agency, there is no other-agency? 'This indeed is wonderful, Master Gotama...! And henceforth, till life ends, I will go to Master Gotama for help.' 6. 1. 4. 8 (Attakaara sutta.m ) (Saavatthinidaana.m) 38. Atha kho a~n~nataro braahma.no yena bhagavaa tenupasa"nkami. Upasa"nkamitvaa bhagavataa saddhi.m sammodi. Sammodaniiya.m katha.m saaraa.niiya.m viitisaaretvaa ekamanta.m nisiidi. Ekamanta.m nisinno kho so braahma.no bhagavanta.m etadacoca: " Aha.m hi bho gotama eva.mvaadi eva.mdi.t.thi: " natthi attakaaro, natthi parakaaroti" maaha.m braahma.na, eva.mvaadi.m eva.mdi.t.thi.m addasa.m vaa assosi.m vaa. Katha.m hi naama saya.m abhikkamanto saya.m pa.tikkamanto eva.m vakkhati: " natthi attakaaro, natti parakaaro"ti. Ta.m ki.m ma~n~nasi braahma.na, atthi aarambhadhaatuuti? Evambho Aarambhadhaatuyaa sati aarambhavanto sattaa pa~n~naayantii?Ti. Eva.m bho. Ya.m kho braahma.na aarambhadhaatuyaa sati aarambhavanto sattaa pa~n~naayantii, ti aya.m sattaana.m attakaaro, aya.m parakaaroti. Brahmacaarayo machasa.m. Ta.m ki.m ma~n~nasi braahma.na atthi nikkhamadhaatuu? Ti. Eva.m bho, Nikkhamadhaatuyaa sati nikkhamavanto sattaa pa~n~naayantii? Ti. Eva.m bho, Ya.m kho braahma.na nikkhamadhaatuyaa sati nikkhamavanto sattaa pa~n~naayantii'ti aya.m sattaana.m attakaaro, aya.m parakaaro'ti. Ta.m ki.m ma~n~nasi braahma.na atthi parakkamadhaatuu?Ti. Eva.m bho, Parakkamadhaatuyaa sati parakkamavanto sattaa pa~n~naayantii?Ti. Eva.m bho, Ya.m kho braahma.na, parakkamadhaatuyaa sati parakkamavanto sattaa pa~n~naayantii'ti aya.m sattaana.m attakaaro, aya.m parakaaro'ti. Ta.m ki.m ma~n~nasi braahma.na atthi thamadhaatuu?Ti. Eva.m bho, Thaamadhaatuyaa sati thamavanto sattaa pa~n~naayantii?Ti. Eva.m bho, Ya.m kho braahma.na, thaamadhaatuyaa sati thaamavanto sattaa pa~n~naayantii'ti aya.m sattaana.m attakaaro, aya.m parakaaro'ti. Ta.m ki.m ma~n~nasi braahma.na atthi .thitidhaatuu?Ti. Eva.m bho, .Thitidhaatuyaa sati ti.t.thanto satti pa~n~naayantii?Ti. Eva.m bho Ya.m kho braahma.na, .thitidhaatuyaa sati ti.t.thanto sattaa pa~n~naayantii'ti aya.m sattaana.m attakaaro, aya.m parakaaro'ti. Ta.m ki.m ma~n~nasi braahma.na atthi upakkamadhaatuu?Ti. Eva.m bho Upakkamadhaatuyaa sati upakkamavanto sattaa pa~n~naayantii?Ti. Eva.m bho, Ya.m kho braahma.na, upakkamadhaatuyaa sati upakkamavanto sattaa pa~n~naayantii'ti aya.m sattaana.m attakaaro, aya.m parakaaro'ti. Maaha.m braahma.na, eva.mvaadi.m eva.mdi.t.thi.m addasa.m vaa assosi.m vaa. Katha.m hi naama saya.m abhikkamanto pa.tikkamanto eva.m vakkhati "natthi attakaaro, natthi parakaaro"ti. Abhikkanta.m bho gotama, abhikkanta.m bho gotama, seyyathaapi bho gotama, nikkujjita.m vaa ukkujjeyya pa.ticchanta.m vaa vivareyya muu.lhassa vaa magga.m aacikkheyya andhakaare vaa telapajjota.m dhaareyya cakkhuumanto ruupaani dakkhintiiti. Evameva.m bhotaa gotamena anekapariyaayena dhammo pakaasito. Esaaha.m bhagavanta.m gotama.m sara.na.m gacchaami, dhamma~nca bhikkhusa"ngha~nca. Upaasaka.m ma.m bhava.m gotamo dhaaretu ajjatagge paa.tupeta.m sara.na.m gatanti. Scott: See next post (to be posted when I have a moment). Sincerely, Scott. #81927 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Jan 28, 2008 8:01 pm Subject: Re: Buddha refutes no self-agency, no other-agency, no initiative! scottduncan2 Dear Alex, Please see this: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/72573 Sincerely, Scott. #81928 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Jan 28, 2008 8:10 pm Subject: Not all suttas are about understanding present dhammas ( was Re: Alone with ,. philofillet Hi again, Robert K and all I wrote: > And one more thing - this idea that all suttas are about knowing > present realities. Wrong! Just plain wrong! Really, you guys have to > acknowledge this or you will continue in denial. Sorry to be so > blunt, not that you will care since I am just against demonstrating > my failure to See the Light a la you guys. I don't know why I wrote that, since it is off topic and just opens a different kettle of fish, but since I did and since I anticipate a follow up question I wrote the following in Word when I should have been working on something else...sigh... ....there are many suttas in Anguttara Nikaya (and I imagine elsewhere) which involve contemplations on topics which are not about the present dhamma. For example, there are suttas in which one is urged to contemplate illness, old age and death in personal terms, or to contemplate what one has done, said and thought and whether this will have led to a shelter from fear on one?fs deathbed, or to contemplate what one ?goften?h (this word in itself negates the present reality emphasis) does, says and thinks in life and to direct one?fs energy in accordance with understanding of the need to work on these ?gblemishes?h, or to contemplate whether one has been in tune with one?fs spouse in a way that might condition a future rebirth where one might be together again. Some of these contemplations, especially the latter, seem at first glance to be out of tune with the deeper aspects of the Buddha?fs teaching (anatta) but they are still urged by the Buddha. Why? To condition moral behaviour, which will in turn help provide conditions for the deeper aspects to be understood. So, yes, it would be true to say that all suttas deal with knowing present dhammas if one means by saying that that they all help to provide conditions for eventually knowing present dhammas, but to say that they are all about knowing present dhammas here and now is incorrect. Saying that all suttas are about knowing present dhammas indicates an approach which fails to understand the breadth of the Buddha?fs teaching because of having so much interest in the depth, or something like that. It is like saying that introduction to anatomy textbooks are about curing cancer, or something like that. BTW, If I find over the next few months that I can?ft outgrow the need to do attack A.S, I will pack it in, because DSG was founded thanks to her, and it is just wrong to continue to attack her. Please bear with me, everyone. Thanks. Trouble concentrating on my novel today because of DSG, which indicates that it is time for one of my periodic leaves of absence... :) Metta, Phil #81929 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Jan 28, 2008 8:21 pm Subject: Re: wow!!! philofillet Hi Alex > You have experienced this new state once (or few times), this shows > that you can have it again. DO IT! I was SO EXCITED after a first > such state so your post isn't surprising. I had a HOOOGEEE wow. I > hope so did you. > > Regular practice, keeping the precepts, training in sense restraint, > is important! > > > As Nike slogan goes: "Just do it!" Thanks Alex. Mudita for your enthusiasm about Dhamma. Sometimes your posts are too long or too frenetic for me to get through, but there is no doubting your enthusiasm for the Dhamma. Mudita! Metta, Phil p.s you're right, it *was* a big WOW #81930 From: "glenjohnann" Date: Mon Jan 28, 2008 8:32 pm Subject: [dsg] Re:subtle attachment, MP3 talks. glenjohnann Hi Sarah and Nina This is interesting - distinctions between silabbataparamasa, attachment and wrong view - and I want to participate more in the conversation. However, I would like to see what you have said in the posts leading up to this one - here I confess my technological failings, and need to ask if there is a way (short of scrolling through all of the previous messages) of finding what came before this? So - guess this is a call for help. Ann > Dear Sarah, > It is clear now about silabata paraamasa. Thanks. > > I like what you wrote further on: > > can be just a tiny urge to have more sati or panna to arise, for > example. > Of course, only the right understanding itself can know such > instances of > silabbataparamasa as distinct from simple attachment.> > #81931 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jan 28, 2008 10:14 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:subtle attachment, MP3 talks. sarahprocter... Hi Ann, --- glenjohnann wrote: >... here I confess my technological > failings, and need to ask if there is a way (short of scrolling > through all of the previous messages) of finding what came before > this? .... S: A few suggestions - 1)On the DSG homepage, scroll to the very bottom of the post and you'll see all the previous messages in the thread (in summary or full form, depending on how you've set the posts to appear). You can open any of these. [If anyone hasn't used the 'reply' when posting, this doesn't work.] 2)Key in any words or phrases in the search, such as 'sarah', 'nina', 'ann', 'wrong view' 3) To to 'Useful Posts' and check under 'Rites & Ritual(Silabbataparamasa)', for example. We have a little medical crisis going on this end, so I'll probably be rather quiet for a few days. You know how it is - good news, bad news and lots of stories. I like KS's reminder than when visible object appears, there's no illness, no disease, no pain, no person, no house......just visible object. Metta, Sarah ======== #81932 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Jan 28, 2008 11:51 pm Subject: Re: Hello im new member here. kenhowardau Hi Alex, --------- <. . .> A: > Please define what you mean by "formal". ----------- Gladly! The Dhamma describes bhavana (mental development) as a conditioned dhamma. It is citta with panna. As the name implies, bhavana arises when the conditions for its arising are in place. On the other hand, formal mental development (formal meditation) is a conventional course of action. It is essentially a ritual in which the meditator tries to experience either samatha or vipassana (or both). Belief in the efficacy of conventional courses of action is contrary to what the Buddha taught. It is essentially the same as belief in a self. A course of action is a concept (pannatti) just as a sentient being is a concept. They are not paramattha dhammas (realities). ------------------------ KH: > . . . (3) that there is an argument somewhere > (presumably at DSG) over whether or not right concentration was an > integral component of magga-citta (the eightfold path of the noble > ones). >>>> A: > Somewhere in AN book of 3's it is said about 3 aggregates (sila, samadhi, panna) A sotapanna masters Sila and develops samadhi/panna to moderate degree. An anagamin masters sila & SAMADHI and has moderate panna An Arahant has fully mastered ALL three. ------------------------- [Leaving that aside for the moment] there is a suggestion in some quarters that the no-formal-bhavana people do not believe in right concentration. I think you have made that mistake too. But it is not true. We all acknowledge right concentration, but some of us know it as a conditioned dhamma that arises with (and dependent upon) right understanding. Others (including yourself) see it as a conventional course of action (such as may be carried out at a meditation retreat etc). Getting back to your quote: I think the main thing to remember is that right concentration (samma-samadhi) is a factor of Path consciousness. It is a cetasika that arises at all stages of the Path. I think this sutta is describing the degrees to which the path factors arise. In the final (arahantship) stage they are at their greatest, and they put an end to the final, lingering defilement: the tendency for conceit. --------- >>> In other words all Dhamma study would be a > waste of time. >>>> Dhamma study is a MUST for stream entry. But please don't forget the other important parts too. ---------- I am aware of the three important parts - pariyati (intellectual right understanding) patipatti (mundane direct right-understanding) and pativedha (complete mundane and supramundane right- understanding). None of these important parts requires formal practices. They are all conditioned dhammas. They all arise when the conditions for their arising are present. No one can help or hinder them in any [ultimately real] way whatsoever. ----------------- >>> If there could be just a little bit of control over > conditioned dhammas >>>>> THERE IS SELF AGENCY AND OTHER AGENCY/. --- Book of 6s page 237 (volume 3 Gradual Saying E.M. Hare) text iii, 355, VI, IV, 38 viii (38). Self-acting. "This Master Gotama, is my avowal, this my view: There is no self- agency; no other-agency' ------------------ Alex, your "wow sutta" is indeed a "wow" but not for the reasons you and some others seem to think. It is not saying anything the other suttas do not say. For example, the Brahmajala Sutta describes both "I exist" and "I do not exist" as equally wrong views. (!) The Buddha did not teach such silly ideas as "you do not exist." If people declared they existed in the conventionally known sense of word, he would say "I do not deny it" (as in a sutta quoted by Sarah recently (I forget the name)). This is not the sort of existence that the Dhamma is about. There is nothing new in any of this. I'm sorry to disappoint you, but your wow sutta does not add anything that has not already been considered at great length at DSG. ------------- A: > If meditation is a ritual for YOU, then it is YOUR problem. I personally lost a fetter for rituals A LONG TIME AGO (~May, 2004 actually. That moment, that session I cannot forget) after a certain very deep meditation. I was HEAVY on rituals before, but not after May 2004 when I've totally destroyed that fetter. I know, it took me about 5 month of daily meditation & semi-physical seclusion... Personally, for me, Bhavana or meditation is NOT a ritual. I am sorry if it is for you. --------------- You are not listening, Alex. I, and others, have been urging you to learn about conditioned dhammas. That is where the real bhavana is to be found. All this other business you are talking about here is just silly kid's stuff, really. Sorry to put it so bluntly, but you will have to learn eventually. Ken H #81933 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 29, 2008 1:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] WOW and Not all suttas are about understanding present dhammas nilovg Dear Phil, Op 29-jan-2008, om 5:10 heeft Phil het volgende geschreven: > Please bear with me, everyone. ------- N: But of course! You usually have after-thoughts after an attack on A.S. Hey, I take it all with a big grain of salt. As to the two boys, mainly Khun Nipat was asking them. I cannot remember whether Kh S. or I said anything much. What is the use of Abh. if it does not help to understand ourselves, our life? As to the suttas, well, I read them differently. -------- > Ph: For example, there are suttas in which one > is urged to contemplate illness, old age and death in personal > terms, -------- N: Not just thinking over. There is death and rebirth at each moment, when a citta falls away and it is succeeded by another one. That brings impermanence of life so close to us. ------ > Ph: or to contemplate what one has done, said and thought and > whether this will have led to a shelter from fear on one?fs > deathbed, ------ N: Who is doing the contemplating? Citta now. Is it akusala or kusala? Understanding sees the disadvantage of akusala. I stop here, there are too many posts these days. As to your WOW experience: yes, quite possible. Whatever is experienced arises because of conditions. It is necessary to realize whether there is clinging, wanting to have it again and again. People who were near death had such experiences by conditions, one may die with a smile. What is it? We do not know, but clinging near death is so dangerous, it conditions an unhappy rebirth. Phil, you have to be very brave and face this with understanding. I am thinking of Connie's post about Sumedha Therii: < Thus, the aggregates, the elements, and the sense bases - all these are conditioned state[s] because they are produced through causes, coming into existence together, being associated. Thus, the aggregates, the elements, and the sense bases - all this arising of the phenomena of material form and immaterial form is [a series of] conditioned state [s] through being produced from conditions, coming into existence together, being associated. These three - [the aggregates, the elements, and the senses bases] - coming to be in this existence are painful. Because they have birth as their cause (jaati-paccaya-ttaa), they have rebirth as their root (jaati-mulaka.m).> The Abhidhamma is sobering up. It helps not to cling to extraordinary experiences. You said you do not know whether it was jhana. When jhanacitta arises, there is pa~n~naa which knows, and no doubt at all. A good way to check. Nina. #81934 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 29, 2008 1:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:subtle attachment, MP3 talks. nilovg Dear Sarah, We hope Jon will be better soon, our warmest wishes. Nina. Op 29-jan-2008, om 7:14 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > We have a little medical crisis going on this end, so I'll probably be > rather quiet for a few days. #81935 From: "pannabahulo" Date: Tue Jan 29, 2008 4:48 am Subject: my last posting on this website pannabahulo Dear DSG members, This e-mail is just to let you all know that, from now on, I will no longer be posting on this DSG site. The amount of time and energy that it requires – and I am a one finger typist who takes hours, not minutes to type longish replies – is not worth the effort which could be better spent on study and practice. I will look at the site from time to time, but will not join in the discussions. But the central issue is that it is certainly not suitable for a monk to put himself into a situation where he is repeatedly accused of having bad intentions, while the accusers take no notice of what I clearly state or clarify. Such accusations amount to slander and it is not fitting to belong to a forum where this practice is common. The Lord Buddha remarked: "That wise one does not become conceited through views or knowledge, for he is not attached to that sort. He is neither enticed by action nor by learning, being detached in every circumstance. There are no ties to him who is free from ideas, there are no delusions to him who is delivered by wisdom. Those who grasp ideas and views, wander about coming into conflict in the world." (SN `Magandiya Sutta') I would like to stress that I am an honest person; in fact, throughout my life I have been criticized for being `too honest." Neither am I involved in deceit: In one of my earlier posts I wrote: "Dear DSG members, You are all, without exception, a wonderful group of people. I appreciate, very much, all the help and guidance you are giving me. I want to show my appreciation and gratitude to all of you. I have one big problem and that is I really want to understand what you are telling me but seem to be unable to grasp the way you actually apply the Abhidhamma. My yogi friend here, David, returned from his first meeting with Ajan Sujin in Chiang Mai this week and is absolutely convinced that she has put him on the right path. My Thai monk friend, who is my neighbour, is also a follower of Ajan Sujin. This morning I awoke with a kind of panic attack. I realised I must be missing the point and don't have any idea of how to apply the teachings. My lifespan is fast running out and the sense of urgency I feel is tremendous". How much more honest could I be? But one response to that letter contained nothing I could have anticipated: "As far as your friends believing in and following K. Sujin, so what? Devadatta also had his share of followers. This is the day and age of spiritual charlatans so KS fits right in. You are not going to be able to make a rational choice about this matter until your health has returned…….. My attitude toward KS is that she is dangerous toward the Dhamma and so I will speak about against her teachings. (And I don't mean a little dangerous; I mean VERY dangerous!)" I found this an incredibly personal and insulting attack on Ajan Sujin. This is supposed to be a Dhamma website. How are other people who read this website going to feel about this kind of slander? Further, for those just beginning their exploration into the Buddha Dhamma – or with a mild curiosity even – they will experience Buddhists as being people who just want to insult and damage each other? Then I posted again, in all sincerity, and with a desire to have the truth of the DSGs `consensus view' explained. For to me then it seemed that it logically led to a wholly deterministic view from which there was no escape. I wanted to learn and have made that clear to one and all since then. But again the reply came: "Most of them took your post seriously and gave you heart-felt advice, but I recognized it as the parody/irony that it was (probably because I have a BA in English)………….. I was bothered about that incident, even though I "guessed" correctly, because I didn't see you as being completely honest about your intention in the first post. And, as you know, monks have very high standards of honesty to follow." Again, I took great pains to explain why I had presented my conclusions in that way (because, at that time, the view expressed was what I thought the DSG members were in agreement with). However, apart from the personal slander, even my simplified clarification was a waste of time. Yesterday I posted an article containing the current view held by a growing number of quantum physicists (in a field known as `Punk science'. I posted this because I came across it by chance and noticed that James and Howard were in debate about `astral bodies'. In the article particular reference is made of this phenomenon. Near the end of the article this question is raised: "Are these the realms of the mystical experiences of higher consciousness that can only be experienced with the subtle bodies such as the astral?" Personally, I have no `view' on this. But certainly the following assertions in the article refer to the consensus view of quantum physicists in general: "One of the main ideas in Punk Science, relies on the conclusions of quantum physicists that have been previously outlined in this article that consciousness is fundamental to reality………As a result of this activity we are becoming more familiar with the concept that consciousness gives rise to matter and not the other way round". This is very much also the viewpoint of the Lord Buddha: In the chain of causal determination, `the Paticcasamuppada', the Lord Buddha taught that consciousness is the cause and condition for the arising of nama and rupa. (Corporeality and mentality. My aim was to be helpful to James and Howard; nothing else. But I received the following response: "Thank you for providing this article. I read it and I'm not quite sure what to make of it. You don't provide your opinion so I'm not sure what you make of it either. Is this another trick question? ;-))" I don't ask `trick questions' and have spent much time conveying this to DSG members. I also received the following attack on my integrity: "In fact, there are many Vinaya rules about a monk discussing Dhamma with laypeople: When his listener is not ill, a bhikkhu should not teach Dhamma if the listener: •has an umbrella in his/her hand". The author goes on to list all the other conditions necessary for a monk to teach Dhamma. But even in this quote the author contradicts himself. He says there are Vinaya rules about monks `discussing Dhamma with lay people' but the goes on to quote rules applicable to monks TEACHING Dhamma. I have never claimed to be a Dhamma or meditation teacher. Whenever I am asked to give a Dhamma talk, the first thing I say is that I am in the same boat as all of you. In fact the Buddha said, that unless a monk has clear and definite attainments, then he must not teach Dhamma. Otherwise, he said, it would be like a monk trying to help a person who is stuck in quicksand or mud and who also jumps in with the intention of helping. Both will sink. I stress all along that I am learning Dhamma. I am not, and do not want to be regarded as, a teacher. It is interesting that, when I renew my yearly visa, the reasons given to the Buddhist Depts. Head Office, is that I wish to continue my study and practice of Dhamma. The Sangha finds no problem with that; three high ranking monks sign my application thus showing their approval. Yet again the reply comes: "Ven. P. your interaction with laypeople should only be to teach the Dhamma, not to learn from them. And that teaching should only be done in person, not over the Internet. When you post to a Buddhist Internet group composed of laypeople, in essence, you are no longer a monk- and that makes things confusing for people". I did reply to this yesterday, but wish to quote from the Lord Buddha again: " Bhikkhus, in regard to external factors, I do not perceive another single factor so helpful as good friendship for a Bhikkhu who is a learner, who has not attained perfection but lives aspiring for the supreme security from bondage. Bhikkhus, a Bhikkhu who has a good friend abandons what is unwholesome and develops what is wholesome" (The Itivuttaka 17) In his notes to this translation, John D. Ireland quotes: "In Vism. Chap 3 the good friend Kalyanamitta is a teacher, the giver of the meditation subject, and at S.3:18/i, 88 it is said that good friendship encourages one to develop and cultivate the noble eightfold path." Ajan Sujin is giving us a meditation subject. This is something I have learnt to grasp from replies to my postings. My friends at DSG encourage me in my cultivation of the N8FP. So I have no conflict there either. This is not meant as a `personal attack' on anyone. The sad thing is that personal attacks are allowed – even tolerated – on this website. While strongly disagreeing with another's viewpoint or interpretation on such a forum is OK; for this is one way we progress in Dhamma. The suttas are full of examples of argument and disagreement with the Buddha. But personal and slanderous attacks are certainly Adhamma. And it is certainly not suitable for a monk to continue posting here. Instead I will utilize the `e-sangha' website. There they have hardworking moderators who will not allow such e-mails to be posted. They take them off immediately they are posted and ban the senders from posting more for varying lengths of time matching the severity of the written attack. I would recommend that DSG follows such an example and protects the image that such postings destroy. We should ask, is it our intention to dissuade people from hearing the Lord Buddha's Dhamma? Or are we actively promoting his teachings? As the Buddha said: "A man of wisdom should be truthful, without arrogance, without deceit, not slanderous and not hateful. He should go beyond the evil of greed and miserliness". (SN Attadanda Sutta). With metta and every best wish to you all, Pannabahulo #81936 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Jan 29, 2008 5:18 am Subject: Re: Reverb scottduncan2 Good Morning colette, The last shall be first: "colette: warmth in the cooler I live in, the basement with concreate foundational walls & floor, is certainly NOT VERY WARM." Scott: I went to start the car this morning: Minus 37 degrees Celsius. Hopefully the Cooler is Warmer. c: "THIS COULD BE A NEW THREAD: Last night I noticed in my meditations that I tend to go into my meditations lately with the direct analysis and confusion concerning my roomates that I'm lucky enough to have. The meditation has started routinely now in awe of the hatred and anger my roomates...Their anger is found through their confrontations with suffering which we know and accept as being a foundational aspect of living..." Scott: This reminds me of the description of the Divine Abidings in a way, Mettaa, for example. You seem to be considering these others in a wholesome way, although you'd know, I guess, by the feel of it. Me: "I am perhaps a CHIMERIC EPIPHENOMENON of the BLISSED-OUT STATE. Mutual Polarisation and the Manifestation of the OTHER. Perhaps Alex Created me, since I dove in to respond, but I fear not." colette: EXACTLY what I was thinking when I created my reply: as I wrote that you were creating Alex through and in your pre-conceptions I was asking myself if I could be sure that you were creating Alex or maybe Alex was creating you...in my lack of mathematical education I use what I got which means that I try to view "the actions of others" as the means they apply to creating a "COMMON DENOMINATOR", foundation. Thanx for the new perspective." Scott: You're welcome. I think maybe we create each other but as a byproduct of thinking about the other and imagining about the other and daydreaming about the other and, since all this, or most of it, must be PROJECTION, then it is DEEPLY HALLUCINATORY. The caveat for me is that I think there are realities which combine and are the other literally - one simply cannot actually get into another's head. colette: "THAT'S A WINNER! Now you not only date yourself, potentially being from my generation..." Scott: Born in '58. Close enough? c: "HEYYYYY, wait a minute, this is another gift you've given me since I've never thought of applying the consciousness of a "tripper" on acid to the reality I'm faced with every day every second; it is very possible that I am forced to deal with a society of people that do not recognize that they are the ones "trippin'" -- in their mis-cognizition or Miss Interpretation of the reality that exists they have subordinated the truth of their hallucinatory experience as the norm and have conginzed the hallucination as a status quo." Scott: Yeah, keep thinking they are like me, or I am like them, or we are all humans or some thing like that. They might be boring but they are me as I am them and we are us and we are all together. And then, really, isn't it all about ME? I mean I read where the mettaa stuff starts with oneself as an example, like, 'I want me to be happy' and then it goes to others. I wonder why they do it that way? Oh well, one of the SWEET MYSTERIES. c: "'Life in the Food Chain' by Tonio K..." Scott: I've not thought of this album in years! Its in one of my boxes downstairs. Too bad the turntable's busted. c: "Our hosts here have done something with your wording since they placed the word "WHO" on the right side then "CARES" on the left side which adds so much more to your post. Again, is it Alex or is it Scott, did our hosts here perform the trick of placement of words and letters or did you, Scott, intentionally place the letters and words that way?" Scott: No, I wrote it that way. Who's Next, eh? colette: "ah, 'confession is good for the soul', so it is true that you, scott, actually had the hallucinationthat manifested Alex and not the other way around since if it was Alex creating you then the confession would have read that "the other person" Alex, was doing the Clinging and Craving. I appreciate honesty which happens to be just as relative and just as subjective as truth." Scott: Thanks colette. Mea culpa. I create the Alex I respond to. Have a good day or night or IN BETWEEN SPACE, colette. Nice chatting with you. Sincerely, Scott. #81937 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Tue Jan 29, 2008 5:49 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (73) nichiconn Dear Friends, Part 27 16. Mahaanipaato 1. Sumedhaatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa 476. "Ajjhupagacche ghaata.m, yo vi~n~naayeva.m satthuno vacana.m; diigho tesa.m sa.msaaro, punappuna.m ha~n~namaanaana.m. 474. "He should submit to this striking who in this way knows the Teacher's utterance, 'Continued existence is long for you, being killed again and again.' Ajjhupagaccheti sampa.ticcheyya. Evanti vuttanayena. Ida.m vutta.m hoti- yo puggalo anamatagga.m sa.msaara.m aparimaa.na~nca va.t.tadukkha.m diipenta.m satthuno vacana.m vi~n~naaya .thito yathaavutta.m sattighaatadukkha.m sampa.ticcheyya, tena ceva va.t.tadukkhassa parikkhayo siyaati. Tenaaha- "diigho tesa.m sa.msaaro, punappuna~nca ha~n~namaanaanan"ti, aparaapara.m jaatijaraabyaadhimara.naadiihi baadhiyamaanaananti attho. 474. He should submit to means: he should accept. In this way means: as described. This is what is said: If an individual is established through knowing the Teacher's utterance that explains continued existence without beginning or end and without measure and the pain of continued existence, he should accept the pain of the striking with swords as has been said. And in this way, there will be the exhaustion of the pain of continued existence. Therefore she says: Continued existence is long for you, being killed again and again (puna-ppuna.m), which means: being afflicted by birth, old age, sickness, and death, etc, again and again (aparaapara.m). That is the meaning. 477. "Devesu manussesu ca, tiracchaanayoniyaa asurakaaye; petesu ca nirayesu ca, aparimitaa dissante ghaataa. 475. "Among devas and among men, in the womb of animals, and in the body of an Asura, among ghosts and in hells, unlimited beatings are seen. Asurakaayeti kaalaka~ncikaadi petaasuranikaaye. Ghaataati kaayacittaana.m upaghaataa vadhaa. 475. In the body of an Asura (asura-kaaye) means: in the Kaalaka~njaka ghost and Asura class [of beings]. Beatings (ghaataa) means: striking and injuring (upaghaataa) the body and the mind. 478. "Ghaataa nirayesu bahuu, vinipaatagatassa pii.liyamaanassa; devesupi attaa.na.m, nibbaanasukhaa para.m natthi. 476. "There are many beatings in hell for an oppressed one who has gone to a nether realm. Even among the devas there is no protection. There is nothing superior to the happiness of quenching. Bahuuti pa~ncavidhabandhanaadikammakaara.navasena pavattiyamaanaa bahuu anekaghaataa. Vinipaatagatassaati sesaapaayasa"nkhaata.m vinipaata.m upagatassmati tiracchaanaadi-attabhaave abhighaataadiihi aabaadhiyamaanassa. Devesupi attaa.nanti devattabhaavesupi taa.na.m natthi raagapari.laahaadinaa sadukkhasavighaatabhaavato. Nibbaanasukhaa para.m natthiiti nibbaanasukhato para.m a~n~na.m uttama.m sukha.m naama natthi lokiyasukhassa vipari.naamasa"nkhaaradukkhasabhaavattaa Tenaaha bhagavaa- "nibbaana.m parama.m sukhan"ti (dha. pa. 203-204). 476. Many (bahuu) means: many, many blows (aneka-ghaataa), continuing because of the production of actions such as the fivefold transfixing, etc. Who has gone to a nether realm (vinipaata-gatassa) means: who has gone to (upagatassaa) a nether realm (vinipaata.m) called the remaining lower realms. An oppressed one means: one afflicted by blows, etc, in the body of an animal, etc. Even among the devas (devesu) there is no protection (attaa.na.m) means: even in existence as a deva (devatta-bhaavesu), there is no protection (taa.na.m n' atthi) from the annoyance of pain because of burning passion, etc. There is nothing superior to the happiness of quenching (nibbaana-sukhaa) means: there is nothing superior to, no other happiness higher than, the happiness of quenching (nibbaana-sukhato) because of the fact there is pain in the vicissitudes of the conditioned states of worldly happiness. Therefore the Blessed One said, "Quenching is the greatest happiness." .. to be continued, connie #81938 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 29, 2008 6:34 am Subject: Alone with Dhamma, Ch 2, no 2. nilovg Dear friends, Acharn Sujin untiringly helps us to understand what is appearing now, such as seeing and visible object. She repeats time and again “Is there seeing now?” and she explains the charactertistic of the dhamma that appears at the present moment. It is always new to me to hear again and again about seeing and visible object. Gradually her words become more meaningful so that understanding of realities can grow, although it may be hardly noticeable. Acharn used a simile of a tree with buds. One may not notice that the tree will sprout, but one day it will. Seeing has a specific characteristic, it is different from thinking about people and things we notice. Visible object has a specific characteristic, it appears through eyesense. People and things do not impinge on the eyesense, they are concepts we think of. We have to be reminded of realities so that understanding of them can grow. Such understanding can condition direct awareness, but we should have no expectations, as she often said. There is seeing now, but do we study it with mindfulness? We are forgetful of seeing, we think rather of persons and things we perceive. Hardness appears many times a day and usually we are forgetful. Hardness is experienced by body-consciousness, but this is different from awareness of hardness. When hardness appears, anyone, even a child can tell how hard it is. Hardness is experienced by body- consciousness, and this is not awareness. When there are conditions for the arising of mindfulness the characteristic of hardness or of the experience of hardness can be understood. At such moments one does not cling to concepts such as a hand or a table that is touched. We may think of “our possessions”, but through which doorway do we experience possessions? Through eyes only colour is experienced and this falls away immediately. Through touch only tangible object is experienced and this falls away immediately. What arises because of the appropriate conditions has no owner. We have to consider this again and again. Awareness and understanding of one object at a time as it appears through one doorway at a time will lead to detachment from the idea of self and “mine”. Everything is dhamma. We know this by intellectual understanding, but, later on, it can be known more deeply by direct understanding. In this way a higher level of understanding is reached, the level of insight knowledge. ******* Nina. #81939 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Jan 29, 2008 6:37 am Subject: Re: my last posting on this website buddhatrue Hi Ven. Pannabahulo, Oh good lord, that last post of mine was just a joke! But, anyway, I agree with you that a monk should not be wasting his time posting to an Internet discussion group. This group is a substitute for those who don't or can't dedicate their lives to real practice- that of a monk or nun. You cannot possibly learn anything of worth from a householder (including KS). I have spent many years interacting with monks and never, once, did one come to me or any other householder to learn the Dhamma. I considered even the most novice of monks at my temple as my teacher. I called them all Ajahn; even when they said they weren't an ajahn. Frankly, it really bothered me to see a monk posting to DSG and wanting to learn the Dhamma from KS and Nina. To me, it seemed really absurd. Perhaps, for that reason, I came on a little too strong. I apologize for that. Good luck to you with your practice and I have great respect for your choice to dedicate your life to the Buddha's teaching. I hope you realize how lucky you are. I would like to become a monk myself but, as an only child, my parents don't want to give me permission. And I need to be there for them when they get old. Anyway, good luck to you and I hope you don't hold any grudges. Metta, James #81940 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jan 29, 2008 2:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Hello im new member here. upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 1/28/2008 10:22:40 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi Howard, ------------- H: > Ken, sometimes it's prudent to be not entirely certain of one's beliefs. (Not clinging to belief is good, anyway, hmm?) If you are wrong, and of course I believe you are, then there is the possibility that you are slandering the Buddha. Worth at least an iota of consideration, don't you think? -------------- The same must apply to you to you, mustn't it? If you are wrong then you are the one doing the slandering. That's the risk we take. ---------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I thought about that. I have two beliefs in regard to intentional practice. I do believe that the Buddha very clearly taught specific intentional activities to engage in, and I do believe that if there were no intentional actions on the part of human of human beings that would lead to awakening, then the Dhamma would be no more than idle philosophy and no more useful for the goal of ending dukkha than the random activities of any non-Buddhist. Yet there is a difference between our perspectives besides being diametrically opposite: I do not cling to either of these two beliefs, I recognize the possibility that each of them could be wrong, and I do not assert them as fact but only belief. It is possible that I misread the suttas and that the Buddha's teaching was really purely descriptive - to the effect that should this happen, then that will happen, and that all "shoulds" and mentioning of "urgency" and "effort" are somehow misunderstood by me. I think it very unlikely, but I recognize that as a possibility, and, most of all, I value truth, whatever it may be, over opinion. And I don't claim to HAVE the truth in my hands. The same is true with regard to my second stated belief that "if there were no intentional actions on the part of human of human beings that would lead to awakening, then the Dhamma would be no more than descriptive philosophy whose study is no more useful for the goal of ending dukkha than the random activities of any non-Buddhist." I recognize that there could be something subtle involved that is beyond my seeing, and that I might be in error on this issue as well. But you, Ken, wrote the following: "... if Suan was right - and formal meditation was taught somewhere in the Tipitaka - it wouldn't matter what false notions you read into the above sentence. In other words all Dhamma study would be a waste of time. If there could be just a little bit of control over conditioned dhammas (if rituals could be just a little bit efficacious) then anatta would be meaningless, and the entire Dhamma would be wrong." So, you also believe two things: 1) formal meditation was not taught anywhere in the Tipitaka, and 2) if you were wrong about that, then, "it wouldn't matter what false notions you read into the above sentence. In other words all Dhamma study would be a waste of time. If there could be just a little bit of control over conditioned dhammas (if rituals could be just a little bit efficacaeous) then anatta would be meaningless, and the entire Dhamma would be wrong." Ken you leave no room here for misunderstanding on your part. You assert outrigh, without hesitation, that if the Buddha taught formal meditation, then the entire Dhamma would be wrong. These are not just beliefs to you, tentatively held, but certainties. You assert that if the Buddha taught formal meditation and even an iota of "control", then the Dhamma is worthless. You do not leave open the door to the possibility that you might be in error. You are a true believer, clinging to your beliefs, and ready to utterly dismiss the Buddhadhamma should you be in error - but only because you believe you KNOW that you are right. If I overstate your tenacity of belief, I will be very pleased to hear it. ------------------------------------------------------------------- I know you mean well, but I don't consider my posts inappropriate. Thanks anyway. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Ken, about almost anything, we may be right or wrong. It is important, I believe, to distinguish belief from truth and to not cling to belief. By not clinging to belief, by recognizing belief as merely belief, by presenting ones views as *only* belief and genuinely recognizing the possibility of error, one safeguards the truth. I think that MN 95, which teaches the safeguarding of truth, is a very important teaching of the Buddha's. -------------------------------------------------------------- Ken H PS: While we're handing out warnings: maybe you should think carefully before putting your own sutta translations above those of the ancient Theras. (?) Just a thought. :-) -------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: What in the world are you talking about? I don't produce sutta translations! Are you out of your mind? ============================== With metta, Howard #81941 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jan 29, 2008 2:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Are thoughts vipaka? upasaka_howard Hi, Larry (and Elaine) - In a message dated 1/28/2008 10:23:03 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@... writes: Hi Elaine and Howard, I asked whether speech is kamma or vipaka as a way to coax you into reasoning speech must be kamma because there is right and wrong speech and since discursive thought is basically talking to oneself, therefore it must be kamma also. However, this tactic failed because you both gave examples of speech and thought that couldn't really have a kamma result, and you quite reasonably reasoned that those examples must therefore be kamma result. Abhidhamma has a different way of reckoning this, but it isn't something that you could reason from experience, or probably the suttas either. Abhidhamma says the 5 sense consciousnesses as they arise in this life are the results of kamma committed in previous lives. Along with that goes bodily feeling. Everything else that we notice, except rupa, is kamma. That includes speaking and thinking, but hearing speech is kamma result; understanding speech is kamma. There are other things that are kamma result, but they are generally so subtle we don't notice them. Also bodily rupas are kamma produced. However, I am using "kamma" in a loose sense here to include both volition (any act of body speech or mind) and volition that produces kamma result in the next life, called "kamma pattha" ("course of action"). These are extreme good or bad actions: murder, extreme hatred, faith, insight, etc. -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: This reminds me a bit of what I wrote in my last msg on this topic. I think that perhaps it is proper to distinguish two different sorts of mind states that are conditioned by intention: 1) the states underlying the activity that is the direct manifestation/expression of the intention, and 2) states that are the fruition of that intention; i.e., the vipaka. I think that perhaps the intention and the states in that 1st category should, together, be classified as "the kamma." So, as an example, there is the loving volition to give comfort immediately followed by (the states underlying) a comforting embrace or touch. Together, these constitute wholesome kamma. Certain subsequent, resultant states in one's mind stream are the vipaka. What do you think? --------------------------------------------------------------- That's the story in a nut shell. It may be a little unsatisfying, but I don't think you will find a detailed account in the suttas. Larry ================================ With metta, Howard #81942 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 29, 2008 8:00 am Subject: Re: A Possible Resolution (Re: [dsg] Are thoughts vipaka?) nilovg Hi Howard, Larry answered and gave you many good points, I think. Before I answer your questions, I would like to say more on vipaakacittas. Kamma does not only produce rebirth-consciousness, vipaakacitta, but at the same time, in the case of humans, the bodysense, as well as sex and the heartbase. The other sensebases arise later in life. These are rupas which are the means to experience sense objects. Take seeing, it is vipaakacitta that just sees, it does not do anything else. There is no thinking involved. One does not have to ask for seeing, it just comes to you unasked. It is the same with hearing and the other sense-cognitions. They are not accompanied by any roots: no lobha, dosa, moha, nor alobha, adosa, amoha. After seeing etc. has fallen away there are two more vipaakacittas and a kiriyacitta which is determining the object and then javanacittas arise. These are always accompanied by roots. They are the active side of life. The sense-door process is followed by another process of cittas that experience the object through the mind-door and again other processes that define and name visible object. Defining and naming is not as innocent as you may think. It is done by javanacittas which are accompanied either by akusala roots or sobhana roots, they are not neutral. On account of visible object one may want to steal and then javanacittas motivate akusala kamma patha through the bodydoor. Now I will go to your questions. Op 28-jan-2008, om 23:14 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > When one, for example, slanders, there is akusala kamma through > speech and this can produce akusala vipåka later on. > ----------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Is it the speech that is the kamma, or the akusala intention that > produces the speech that is the kamma. I vote for the intention. > ============================ N: Yes, it is intention or volition, cetanaa. The term kamma is often used for the deeds, but actually it is the intention or volition, and this can be accumulated from life to life, so that by its force it can produce vipaaka. ---------- > H: I wonder whether the following makes sense, using speech as an > example: > The volition, akusala (say) to speak in a harsh way (say), has two > categories of result: 1) the mind states underlying the resultant > wrong speech, > and 2) secondary unhappy mind states, possibly arising much later, > that are the > fruition of the original volition and its expression in thought and > speech. ------ N: The cittas that motivate wrong speech are accompanied by akusala roots and the accompanying cetanaa is kamma that can produce result in the form of an unhappy rebirth or seeing , hearing or another sense-cognition experiencing an unpleasant object, later on. We have to clearly differentiate kamma and vipaaka. The cittas motivating wrong speech are not result, they are active, accompanied by akusala roots, they arise during the moments of javana and are thus never vipaka except in the case of lokuttara cittas. But perhaps you use resultant in a conventional way? --------- > H: The volition and the immediately resulting thought and speech > activity, > together, are the kamma, and the secondary unhappy states are the > vipaka. ------ N: The confusion is with: the resulting thought. See above. We have to know whether akusala roots are accompanying, and then citta is active, not passive, not result. ------- > H: When the volition leads to action in body, mind, or speech, the > volition and > resulting action should be yoked together in our thinking as the > kamma. ----- N: The volition *is* action. There are many akusala cittas involved in many processes. -------- > H: If the foregoing is the correct way to think, then it boils down > to the > following definition: Kamma is volition paired with resulting > action (if > there is resulting action), and vipaka consists of subsequent mind > states that > are conditioned by these. ------- N: The vipaakacittas are not subsequent, not so soon, not in the same process. Thus, kamma can stand for deed, but when we are more precise: for the volition accompanying the kusala citta or akusala citta that wills kusala or akusala. Next time more about thinking in a general way and thinking in a more precise definition. The processes in the Abhidhamma you asked for will be dealt with later, the quotes involve much work. Nina. #81943 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Jan 29, 2008 8:15 am Subject: [dsg] Re:subtle attachment, MP3 talks. dhammanusara Dear Sarah(Jon, Nina), - I just read Nina's post that mentions Jon's illness. So I looked further and found rhe following comment : > S: > We have a little medical crisis going on this end, so I'll probably be > rather quiet for a few days. You know how it is - good news, bad news and lots of stories. I like KS's reminder than when visible object appears, there's no illness, no disease, no pain, no person, no house......just visible object. > T: I am sorry to hear that bad news, and wish the "little medical crisis" may last only a few days at most. The thinking of voidness like you said reminds me of the following passage from the Patism. 515 "When he knows and sees correctly that eye (ear, ...mind) is void of self or what belongs to self or anything permanent or everlasting or eternal or not subject to change, then this knowledge turns away from misinterpretation of eye (ear, ... mind), thus understanding of voidness is knowledge of the turning away through knowledge". That "understanding of voidness" is ~nanavivatta~nana. Please say Hi to Jon for me. Sincerely, Tep === #81944 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jan 29, 2008 3:26 am Subject: Re: A Possible Resolution (Re: [dsg] Are thoughts vipaka?) upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - We're not quite connecting. In a message dated 1/29/2008 11:00:48 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Larry answered and gave you many good points, I think. Before I answer your questions, I would like to say more on vipaakacittas. Kamma does not only produce rebirth-consciousness, vipaakacitta, but at the same time, in the case of humans, the bodysense, as well as sex and the heartbase. The other sensebases arise later in life. These are rupas which are the means to experience sense objects. Take seeing, it is vipaakacitta that just sees, it does not do anything else. There is no thinking involved. One does not have to ask for seeing, it just comes to you unasked. It is the same with hearing and the other sense-cognitions. They are not accompanied by any roots: no lobha, dosa, moha, nor alobha, adosa, amoha. After seeing etc. has fallen away there are two more vipaakacittas and a kiriyacitta which is determining the object and then javanacittas arise. These are always accompanied by roots. They are the active side of life. The sense-door process is followed by another process of cittas that experience the object through the mind-door and again other processes that define and name visible object. Defining and naming is not as innocent as you may think. It is done by javanacittas which are accompanied either by akusala roots or sobhana roots, they are not neutral. On account of visible object one may want to steal and then javanacittas motivate akusala kamma patha through the bodydoor. Now I will go to your questions. Op 28-jan-2008, om 23:14 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > When one, for example, slanders, there is akusala kamma through > speech and this can produce akusala vipåka later on. > ----------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Is it the speech that is the kamma, or the akusala intention that > produces the speech that is the kamma. I vote for the intention. > ============================ N: Yes, it is intention or volition, cetanaa. The term kamma is often used for the deeds, but actually it is the intention or volition, and this can be accumulated from life to life, so that by its force it can produce vipaaka. -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Good. I consider volition itself to be the primary sense of 'kamma' in the Dhamma, the precise and literal sense. ------------------------------------------------------- ---------- > H: I wonder whether the following makes sense, using speech as an > example: > The volition, akusala (say) to speak in a harsh way (say), has two > categories of result: 1) the mind states underlying the resultant > wrong speech, > and 2) secondary unhappy mind states, possibly arising much later, > that are the > fruition of the original volition and its expression in thought and > speech. ------ N: The cittas that motivate wrong speech are accompanied by akusala roots and the accompanying cetanaa is kamma that can produce result in the form of an unhappy rebirth or seeing , hearing or another sense-cognition experiencing an unpleasant object, later on. We have to clearly differentiate kamma and vipaaka. The cittas motivating wrong speech are not result, they are active, accompanied by akusala roots, they arise during the moments of javana and are thus never vipaka except in the case of lokuttara cittas. But perhaps you use resultant in a conventional way? ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard No. Right before the wrong speech, and interspersed in the midst of the wrong speech are cittas that involve unwholesome volition. They are kamma. Informally, the speech activity that expresses this unwholesome volition can be identified as "the kamma" also, because the wrong speech is intentional action. In any case, the cittas underlying the speech that express the akusala cetana *have that cetana as condition*. While they are not the vipaka of that cetana, they *do* have that cetana as condition - they *are* a kind of resultant, a sort of resultant other than vipaka. ------------------------------------------------------------ --------- > H: The volition and the immediately resulting thought and speech > activity, > together, are the kamma, and the secondary unhappy states are the > vipaka. ------ N: The confusion is with: the resulting thought. See above. We have to know whether akusala roots are accompanying, and then citta is active, not passive, not result. ------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I'm not aware of being confused on anything with regard to this specific point. Active states are still conditioned, and often by cetana. ------------------------------------------------------------ ------- > H: When the volition leads to action in body, mind, or speech, the > volition and > resulting action should be yoked together in our thinking as the > kamma. ----- N: The volition *is* action. There are many akusala cittas involved in many processes. -------- > H: If the foregoing is the correct way to think, then it boils down > to the > following definition: Kamma is volition paired with resulting > action (if > there is resulting action), and vipaka consists of subsequent mind > states that > are conditioned by these. ------- N: The vipaakacittas are not subsequent, not so soon, not in the same process. ------------------------------------------------------------ Howard: By 'subsequent' I meant "following later". There was no implication on my part of coming soon. In fact, I think it is typically quite the opposite. ---------------------------------------------------------- Thus, kamma can stand for deed, but when we are more precise: for the volition accompanying the kusala citta or akusala citta that wills kusala or akusala. ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: That I agree with precisely! Kamma, literally, is volition, and only informally is the action associated with that volition to be considered as kamma. ------------------------------------------------------------ Next time more about thinking in a general way and thinking in a more precise definition. The processes in the Abhidhamma you asked for will be dealt with later, the quotes involve much work. Nina. ============================== With metta, Howard #81945 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jan 29, 2008 4:37 am Subject: James' Referenced Article on Personalism upasaka_howard Hi, James (and all) - I just completed reading the article at _http://www.iep.utm.edu/p/pudgalav.htm_ (http://www.iep.utm.edu/p/pudgalav.htm) that you so kindly provided, James, and I found it to be quite worthwhile in several respects. For one thing, it seems to give fairly complete and rather fair assessment of personalism. For a second, in the process, many issues of importance are raised and discussed. As for personalism, I view it as a species of atta-view not so far from Brahmanism, and developed for the purpose of accounting for perceived "problems" growing out of the no-self teaching, "problems" that can be dealt with, the personalists seem to feel, only by (what I consider to be) surrender to self-view. In fact, I see the so-called problems as apparently difficult of solution due only to the failure of distinguishing aggregates from what I call "aggregations," the difference being the critically important one of relationship. The person, in my view, is neither an individual reality nor a mere collection of random phenomena, but an integrated (dynamic) assemblage of interrelated phenomena that act in concert. With metta, Howard #81946 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jan 29, 2008 4:40 am Subject: Re: A Possible Resolution (Re: [dsg] Are thoughts vipaka?) upasaka_howard Hi again, Nina - Again, I need to clarify In a message dated 1/29/2008 11:27:52 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@... writes: Howard: I'm not aware of being confused on anything with regard to this specific point. Active states are still conditioned, and often by cetana. ============================== I should have said "preconditioned" instead of just "conditioned" to make clear my point. With metta, Howard #81947 From: "shennieca" Date: Tue Jan 29, 2008 10:00 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Are thoughts vipaka? shennieca Hi Larry, Howard, Tep, Phil, all, Larry: It may be a little unsatisfying, but I don't think you will find a detailed account in the suttas. Elaine: Yeah, you're right. There is no detailed account of this in the sutta, it's really difficult to come up with a satisfactory answer. With mettaa, Elaine :-)) #81948 From: "Alex" Date: Tue Jan 29, 2008 10:21 am Subject: Re: Buddha refutes no self-agency, no other-agency, no initiative! truth_aerator Dear Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Dear Alex, > > Please see this: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/72573 > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > Thank you very much for your posts, I appreciate it. Actually I don't appreciate your post since there is actually no I, no you, and the post is just some sense data... But whatever... :) Anyhow, joking aside. Do we agree that: A) Buddha's path requires element of arousal, initiative, energy, etc? Scott: In Note 60: "Spk: The element of arousal (aarambahadhaatu) is the initial phase of energy, the element of endeavour (nikkamadhaatu) intermediate energy, the element of exertion (parakkamadhaatu) energy at full intensity." B) Buddha's path MUST be fulfilled in ALL its factors? Lots of Metta, Alex #81949 From: "shennieca" Date: Tue Jan 29, 2008 10:28 am Subject: Re: my last posting on this website shennieca Hello Bhante, I hope you can be compassionate to James. He gave his very sincere reply with good intentions. I don't claim to know James very well, but from his posts in DSG and other Buddhist forums, I can tell that he is a very honest guy. :-)) He has this sense of humor that is very subtle. Heheh ;-)) With metta & respect, Elaine :-)) P/S: I don't agree with the teachings of KS because it is not in-line with what the Buddha taught. I have never heard of a Buddhist teacher who says meditation (the conventional type) is not what the Buddha taught (it is the first and only time I hear it, and it came from KS's followers in DSG). I find it strange and I believe a few other people in DSG find it strange too. But they have not come out of the closet yet, maybe? ;-)) #81950 From: Dieter Möller Date: Tue Jan 29, 2008 10:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] No convincing explanation ..[was Alleged Slowing Down..] moellerdieter Dear Tep,... there are indeed some misunderstandings ... you wrote: : No, not anything like that. I thought the 'dead-end' was arrived because you believed that Nibbana as a 'nama' was also included in the khandhas. Because I understand Nibbana as asankhata dhamma that is separate from the khandhas, therefore the discussion should stop. Perhaps the previous dialogues help summarize the point. But I may very well have misunderstood your terse reply in #81889. # 81889 ---------- Tep: Note that the five aggregates completely define nama & rupa, thus it is clear that 'nama' also means arupa : i.e. whatever dhammas that are not rupa(form = the four great elements) must be nama. Since Nibbana is not in the khandhas, so Nibbana is not a nama. D (new): I was trying to avoid to get too much involved into the issue of definition and its difficulty to agree what is what.. (more in favor of the meditation topic....so being a bit terse ... it didn't work..;-) in detail: T: Note that the five aggregates completely define nama & rupa, thus it is clear that 'nama' also means arupa : i.e. whatever dhammas that are not rupa(form = the four great elements) must be nama. D: I see that differently.. you quoted Budsas.org: "In the Suttas, nama is used to refer to all aspects of mind except consciousness itself. In later texts, it usually also includes consciousness" as later texts later are questionable, I see no reason why nama in the translation of 'mental' (phenomena) should include consciousness, which would only lead to confusion in respect to the D.O. linking of ..... vinnaya paccaya rupa/nama , ie. consciousness conditions bodily /material - mental phenomena . How do we define dhammas ? Considered to be 'things ' it would concern the bodily /mental phenomena only, not consciousness, wouldn't it? T: Since Nibbana is not in the khandhas, so Nibbana is not a nama. D: yes, nibbana isn't conditioned .... (D new: in my opinion better to use what all khandas have on common : the conditioning.. as when you say : ' ?' is not in A , B, C , so '?' is not C) I only wanted to emphasize that one should be careful when considering ' groupings' .. up to now I found no convincing explanation that in Abh. under the umbrella of Paramattha Dhammas nibbana is mentioned besides the khandas..) Tep: What did you expect to see? ' D: limitation to the khandas .. new: the khandas represent our (conditioned ) reality .. the point of ultimate truth , nibbana, is beyond , not to be grouped together under the umbrella of Paramattha Dhammas. ( Abhidhammatha Sangaha : In the ultimate sense the categories of Abhidhamma , mentioned therein, are fourfold in all (consciousness, mental properties, matter and nibbana) . I would probably more open to the Abh. with a good explanation.. D old: or to speak with Wittgenstein: "Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent."--------- Tep: I thought by quoting Wittgenstein, you were suggesting that I should stop talking! D: Not at all! I quoted Wittgenstein to strengthen my point not to include nibbana Tep: BTW I always think of the Abhidhamma(e.g. the Dhammasangani) as the important resource to help me get deeper and broader understanding of the dhammas, whenever the Suttanata-pitaka does not give me enough details. But since you do not see "convincing explanation" in the Abhidhamma-pitaka, that is a dead-end of this discussion on nama-rupa and Nibbana. I just say that as a fact, and there is no emotion involved ! D: each of us has a individual approach to the Dhamma.. we need to construct 'our raft' with means most suitable for us . Our exchange is therefore only benefitial to a certain limit as finally we all are on our own.. so nothing wrong with declaring that this limit has been reached in our discussion ,Tep. We may find issues of common interest at other opportunities again. with Metta Dieter #81951 From: Dieter Möller Date: Tue Jan 29, 2008 10:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: my last posting on this website moellerdieter Hi Elaine , all , you wrote: 'P/S: I don't agree with the teachings of KS because it is not in-line with what the Buddha taught. I have never heard of a Buddhist teacher who says meditation (the conventional type) is not what the Buddha taught (it is the first and only time I hear it, and it came from KS's followers in DSG). I find it strange and I believe a few other people in DSG find it strange too. But they have not come out of the closet yet, maybe? ;-)) D: I beg your pardon ..?! ;-)) with Metta Dieter #81952 From: Dieter Möller Date: Tue Jan 29, 2008 10:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] James' Referenced Article on Personalism moellerdieter Hi Howard, if you don't mind a brief comment to: 'The person, in my view, is neither an individual reality nor a mere collection of random phenomena, but an integrated (dynamic) assemblage of interrelated phenomena that act in concert." D: but the whole teaching is addressing the suffering of the individual reality, isn't it? with Metta Dieter #81953 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 29, 2008 11:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Outline of Purification of View V.7 nilovg Hi Larry, Op 29-jan-2008, om 3:29 heeft LBIDD@... het volgende geschreven: > Larry: Good point. It never occured to me. My first thought is that > eternity belief and annihilation belief are personal and only about > sense objects if we identify with them, thinking "I am this > appearance", > or "this hat is mine". ------- N: This is a good thought, I think. I am this visible object, when looking at the looking glass, and then having such ideas about them. Or else: let me enjoy all objects, I will be annihilated anyway after death. The tiika states that also those believes pertain to enjoying sense objects, to kaama. I just saw today. I looked in other books but could not find much about it. Nina. #81954 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 29, 2008 11:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vis. CH XVIII, 23 nilovg Hi Larry, Op 29-jan-2008, om 2:55 heeft LBIDD@... het volgende geschreven: > Larry: There is selecting but no selecter. ------ N: O.K. It may be accumulated inclinations that motivate being aware first of rupa, then nama, or vice versa. But it is not something to follow with an idea of, 'I select, I manage it all.' This can come in so easily. Nina. #81955 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 29, 2008 11:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Wife as object of awareness nilovg Hi Phil, Op 29-jan-2008, om 2:47 heeft Phil het volgende geschreven: > Personally I feel that I want to go very, very gradually with > paramattha matters but reading friends express interest in that > approach is helpful. (As long as I don't get cross at them and > insult their beloved teacher, which is wrong speech.) -------- N: You said that very nicely. Go gradually, that is better. I wanted to add to my tale about the two reciting boys: Khun Nipat talked in a very friendly way with them, and he was also generous, rewarding their efforts with some money. These boys were very polite and well educated. I would not have wanted to miss this whole scene. Everyone liked these boys. Nina. #81956 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 29, 2008 11:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Outline of Purification of View V.4 nilovg Hi Larry, Op 29-jan-2008, om 2:41 heeft LBIDD@... het volgende geschreven: > Please set a good example! It's only one chapter, for > heaven's sake. ------ N: Perhaps someone else will. I have my hands full with Ch XVII, otherwise I would be interested with Tiika and all. But after Ch XVII I shall go into retirement. It is such a heavy job and time consuming to decypher the tiika. But I do not regret it. Nina. #81957 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jan 29, 2008 6:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] James' Referenced Article on Personalism upasaka_howard Hi, Dieter - In a message dated 1/29/2008 1:55:22 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, moellerdieter@... writes: Hi Howard, if you don't mind a brief comment to: 'The person, in my view, is neither an individual reality nor a mere collection of random phenomena, but an integrated (dynamic) assemblage of interrelated phenomena that act in concert." D: but the whole teaching is addressing the suffering of the individual reality, isn't it? with Metta Dieter ================================== I'm afraid I don't understand your question. The whole teaching is addressing the suffering of sentient beings/persons, which I understand to be aggregations. I don't know what this "individual reality" you presume is supposed to be. Where did the Buddha ever refer to a person as an individual reality? When the three poisons can no longer ever arise in the aggregation we call "Dieter," then "Dieter has realized freedom." With metta, Howard #81958 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 29, 2008 11:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vis. CH XVIII, 23 nilovg Hi Larry, Scott gave a link to an old post which is very good about striving. > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/72573 >>> . Nina. Op 29-jan-2008, om 2:25 heeft LBIDD@... het volgende geschreven: > Isn't going to dhamma talks again and again a striving for > understanding? #81959 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 29, 2008 11:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Outline of Purification of View V.8 nilovg Hi Larry, Op 29-jan-2008, om 2:09 heeft LBIDD@... het volgende geschreven: > The correct vision of mentality and materiality, which, after > defining mentality-materiality by those various methods, has been > established on the plane of non-confusion by overcoming the perception > of a being, is what should be understood as purification of view. > Other > terms for it are 'defining of mentality-materiality' and 'delimitation > of formations'. ------- N: At first we may wonder: defining, it seems like book knowledge. But the foregoing makes it clear: Overcoming the atta-sa~n~naa. This could not happen merely by reasoning. Nina. #81960 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 29, 2008 11:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Corner (80) nilovg Dear Han, Op 29-jan-2008, om 0:45 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > There are many such reminders in the previous > installments, and the installments to come. > Being fully aware of my impatient nature, I am happy > that I have selected this chapter. ------- N: Thank you for your considerations. When reading your installment the other day I found it like a mirror: how far am I away from real patience. There are always specific objects, as we discussed before, domestic things, I find difficult to have patience with. Sometimes just small things. Such an installment makes one scrutinize one's conscience. Nina. #81961 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Tue Jan 29, 2008 11:53 am Subject: Re: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (73) nichiconn Dear Nina, All, Nina: we read so much about stories and situations, and now this really does me good to read about the khandhas, elements, aayatanas. Thank you. Connie: I'd really like it better if there was more "abhidhamma talk" in the Sisters but hope the series might help even one person to see that some of the objections to the Commentaries that they might have or read about without ever having looked at any Commentarial material for themselves are unfounded - even if they don't come to have much deeper appreciation for them right away. peace, connie #81962 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Tue Jan 29, 2008 11:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Corner (80) nichiconn Dear Han, The Patience chapter is also one of my favorites and it seems we've picked some of the same quotes to reflect on. Thank you, connie #81963 From: Dieter Möller Date: Tue Jan 29, 2008 12:17 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] James' Referenced Article on Personalism moellerdieter Hi Howard, you wrote: 'I'm afraid I don't understand your question. The whole teaching is addressing the suffering of sentient beings/persons, which I understand to be aggregations. I don't know what this "individual reality" you presume is supposed to be. Where did the Buddha ever refer to a person as an individual reality? D:suffering is the reality of the individual person , which is not simply aggregation but 'aggregation attachment ' , i.e. identification within the khandas :that I am , that is mine .. The Buddha addressed the person explaining the necessity of detachment in order to get rid of the ignorance/delusion. H: When the three poisons can no longer ever arise in the aggregation we call "Dieter," then "Dieter has realized freedom." D: then we better don't speak of Dieter or Howard anymore .. You may consider likewise ..(?) As the ongoing anatta discussion ( e.g. no person so no controll no initiative/training ) is concerned , the mentioning of our conventional truth avoids confusion.. which I tried to point out by my question .. with Metta Dieter #81964 From: "Alex" Date: Tue Jan 29, 2008 12:34 pm Subject: Re: Hello im new member here. truth_aerator Hi Ken, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi Alex, > > --------- > <. . .> > A: > Please define what you mean by "formal". > ----------- > > Gladly! The Dhamma describes bhavana (mental development) as a > conditioned dhamma. It is citta with panna. As the name implies, > bhavana arises when the conditions for its arising are in place. >>> In a sense it is true. My nama&vinnana having an intention to meditate and put my Rupa on a pillow has a cause and conditions. So Samadhi is conditioned in that sense. >>> > > On the other hand, formal mental development (formal meditation) is a > conventional course of action. It is essentially a ritual in which > the meditator tries to experience either samatha or vipassana (or > both). >>> You've got some incorrect misconceptions. I don't intend to reach this or that meditation stage. I simply DO the nessesery steps without any strong desire for results. In fact some times I had great sessions when I thought that I wouldn't. Samatha and Vipassana happens on its own when the conditions are right such as purity of virtue, sense restraint, moderation in eating, mindfulness, joy, tranquility, piti-sukha... >>>> Belief in the efficacy of conventional courses of action is contrary to what the Buddha taught. >>> Jhana isn't conventional especially when it is aimed at destruction of the asavas. > > [Leaving that aside for the moment] there is a suggestion in some > quarters that the no-formal-bhavana people do not believe in right > concentration. I think you have made that mistake too. But it is not > true. We all acknowledge right concentration, but some of us know it > as a conditioned dhamma that arises with (and dependent upon) right > understanding. Others (including yourself) see it as a conventional > course of action (such as may be carried out at a meditation retreat > etc). > OK. How do you practice samma-samadhi, in particular Jhana. > Getting back to your quote: I think the main thing to remember is > that right concentration (samma-samadhi) is a factor of Path > consciousness. It is a cetasika that arises at all stages of the > Path. I think this sutta is describing the degrees to which the path > factors arise. In the final (arahantship) stage they are at their > greatest, and they put an end to the final, lingering defilement: the > tendency for conceit. ..> Arahant is also gotten rid of ALL Avijja and has perfected Panna. To think that one must (or even can) perfect panna before perfecting Sila & Samadhi is incorrect. > --------- > I am aware of the three important parts - pariyati (intellectual > right understanding) patipatti (mundane direct right-understanding) > and pativedha (complete mundane and supramundane right- > understanding). None of these important parts requires formal > practices. They are all conditioned dhammas. They all arise when the > conditions for their arising are present. No one can help or hinder > them in any [ultimately real] way whatsoever. > ----------------- Yep. When the conditions are right, I sit down, get (temporary) rid of defilments and practice deep meditation. Lots of Metta, Alex #81965 From: "colette" Date: Tue Jan 29, 2008 9:52 am Subject: Re: my last posting on this website ksheri3 Good Morning James, > Oh good lord, that last post of mine was just a joke! But, anyway, I > agree with you that a monk should not be wasting his time posting to > an Internet discussion group. colette: help me out here: where in the Patimokkha does it rebuke the posting on internet discussion groups? I mean a monk can be HIGHLY ISSOLATED AND HIGHLY LONEY, which Maara cognizes: "What, are you stupefied, that you lie down? Or else entranced by some poetic flight? Are there not many aims yo still must serve? Why do you dream away intent on sleep Alone in your secluded dwelling place?" Which I interpret as directly addressing the "monk's existance". How can a monk actually exist in a world of other people that NEED enlightenment if the only world the monk knows of existing is the world that exists in two dimensional form of books and/or manuscripts? Sorry, this is the 21 Century and I, like Scott, live in the Here & Now, which certainly spits on living in a two dimensional format. The person that wants to leave or complain that they have to work too hard is just another being that suffers and cannot accept the duty of ending the suffering. <...> ------------------------------------------------ This group is a substitute for those > who don't or can't dedicate their lives to real practice- that of a > monk or nun. <...> --------------------------------------- You cannot possibly learn anything of worth from a > householder (including KS). > colette: jeeze, what planet are you from? We on the Earth that practice Buddhism, clearly know that the householder's existance is of the utmost importance. --------------------------- Gotta go, I'd rather play with Scott than with your highly delusional value structure and application of Buddhism. toodles, colette <....> #81966 From: "colette" Date: Tue Jan 29, 2008 10:07 am Subject: Re: Reverb, "colder than a witches tit" ksheri3 Good Morning Scott, Minus 37 degrees celcius, ouch, how close is that to the temperature of LOX? Spending a lot of time in the cockpit of a fighter reequires that I have plenty of LOX for my mask. > The last shall be first: > > c: "THIS COULD BE A NEW THREAD: Last night I noticed in my meditations > that I tend to go into my meditations lately with the direct analysis > and confusion concerning my roomates that I'm lucky enough to have. > The meditation has started routinely now in awe of the hatred and > anger my roomates...Their anger is found through their confrontations > with suffering which we know and accept as being a foundational aspect > of living..." > > Scott: This reminds me of the description of the Divine Abidings in a > way, Mettaa, for example. You seem to be considering these others in > a wholesome way, colette: THANK YOU! That is a first! I have never been told, during my ops nor told in reviewing my past ops, that I have any good in my ops, in my self and in my entire existance, AND I'VE GOT A 30 yr. anniversery approaching that gratifies the people of Chicago and the USA for only giving me HATRED, THEIR HATRED, EVERY DAY, EVERY SECOND, and I will not allow that anniversery to go without getting my duckies lined up since St. Valentines Day is approaching as well. -------------------------------- although you'd know, I guess, by the feel of it. > colette: yes, I know, but I also know that my attitudes and my opinions and my advice and my existance, IS VIEWED AND REBUKED BY ALL AMERICANS AS A REQUIREMENT to satisfy the PRE-REQUISITES FOR THEIR MEMBERSHIP IN THEIR GANG, GROUP, MOB, COVEN, CONGREGATION, ETC. <...> -------------------------------- Sorry, gotta go but will be back. toodles, colette <....> #81967 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Jan 29, 2008 10:20 am Subject: Void Blinking! bhikkhu0 Friends: The Non-Empty Void of Blinking States! Void, Void, they say! Void of exactly What? There is no and never was any permanent individuality internally ‘in here’! All process of being is void of ‘continuous’ or ‘same’ personal core identity! There is no stable from moment to moment same substance externally ‘out there’. All is void constant same enduring lasting entity…There is no static existence… There is only a flux of change, transience and ever renewed becoming. Avoiding both extremes of Eternalism & Annihilationism one should remain in the Middle of Dependent Co-Arising: When this is present, that appears. When this is absent, that does not appear. With the emergence of this, that too arises. With the ceasing of this, that too disappears. Just as there is a mirror and a reflection even so is The apprehending & the apprehended; That which knows & what is known; Mentality & Materiality; Naming-&-Forming; Mind & Matter. Transient indeed is this essentially inseparable Dual Dynamic Appearance, Since both elements is momentary, changing, discretely blinking in a passing serial sequence of ultra-quick arising & ceasing, how can such be said to exist even for a moment? Even while perceived this moment is already gone for never to return. This is all, this is the world, and such is all these phenomena: Void of permanence, sameness, substance and self! Friendship is the Greatest * Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka :-) ..... #81968 From: "colette" Date: Tue Jan 29, 2008 11:06 am Subject: Re: Reverb ksheri3 Hi Scott, I've just found the begining of the Jataka tales as I found your characterization: Divine Abidings. This D.A. thing will have to opened, but, as I've said, Pandora's box (like Chinese Boxes) do not bother me that much, sorry, "I go where angels fear to tread". It's kindof like "combat tactics" where a torpedo will arm itself at a given distance or GPS location so, meeting the torpedo that is sent as a gift to myself, EARLIER, at a location prior to the given arming location, will EFFECTIVELY disarm the torpedo, no? -------------------------------- > Scott: This reminds me of the description of the Divine Abidings in a > way, Mettaa, for example. You seem to be considering these others in > a wholesome way, although you'd know, I guess, by the feel of it. > > Me: "I am perhaps a CHIMERIC EPIPHENOMENON of the BLISSED-OUT STATE. > Mutual Polarisation and the Manifestation of the OTHER. Perhaps Alex > Created me, since I dove in to respond, but I fear not." > > colette: EXACTLY what I was thinking when I created my reply: as I > wrote that you were creating Alex through and in your pre- conceptions > I was asking myself if I could be sure that you were creating Alex or > maybe Alex was creating you...in my lack of mathematical education I > use what I got which means that I try to view "the actions of others" > as the means they apply to creating a "COMMON DENOMINATOR", > foundation. Thanx for the new perspective." > > Scott: You're welcome. I think maybe we create each other colette: THANK YOU, THIS GOES TO THE HEART OF THE YOGACARA AND MOST WESTERN RELIGIONS, through the processes of Tantra & Yoga & what could possibly be ceremonial ritual behavior. Do you realize the potential of possessing that assurance, that confidence, that we create each other, BEFORE BEGINING a ceremonial or ritual act? ------------------------------------- but as a > byproduct of thinking about the other and imagining about the other > and daydreaming about the other and, since all this, or most of it, > must be PROJECTION, colette: NOW YOU'RE WITH ME. What part or portion of the reality which I, for instance, or you, for instance, is PROJECTED from my or your COGNITIONS? What are the characteristics of the Projection and what are the characteristics of the Projected? For instance, I cognize that I want to manifest something; in my consciousness I know what I want to manifest; I make the effort to manifest what is in my consciousness; WHAT ARE THE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN WHAT I COGNIZED IN MY CONSCIOUSNESS TO MANIFEST IN RELATION TO WHAT IS MANIFESTED? The classic "If this THEN that" theory, and/or "Cause & Effect". ----------------------------------- THIS, below, SOUNDS AKIN TO REFINING METALS OR REFINING IRON ORES. the Bi-Product or RESIDUE will exist. but as a > byproduct of thinking about the other and imagining about the other > and daydreaming about the other and, since all this, or most of it, > must be PROJECTION, then it is DEEPLY HALLUCINATORY. The caveat for > me is that I think there are realities which combine and are the other > literally - one simply cannot actually get into another's head. > colette: look at what you've said. These are characteristics of being programmed or "conditioned" in and through a Western religious thought, thinking, process (see Assembly Line production techniques, also see DNA modification, MUTATIONS, et al). Now look into the warnings given in and through the users manual labeled as being the Holy Bible: somethink like "to think of the sin is to have comitted the sin" BUT THEN GO BACK AND CHECK OUT THE EXACT PARALLELS TO YOGACARA and other Tantra based philosophies. Then, I ask you, please, go look at the cover graphics while listening to John Lennon's cd MIND GAMES. My parents bought me that album for a christmas present in 1972 I think. I did notice that somewhere in your reply you used the lyrics from "I Am The Walrus" coo-coo-ca- choo, and here's to you Mrs. Robinson, Heaven holds a place for those who pray". --------------------------------------- > colette: "THAT'S A WINNER! Now you not only date yourself, potentially > being from my generation..." > > Scott: Born in '58. Close enough? > colette: I'm with ya, '61 here. But, as being '58, I believe you're the same age as my bros. Ever been to Erie PA, my bros. POB? ---------------------------------- > c: "HEYYYYY, wait a minute, this is another gift you've given me since > I've never thought of applying the consciousness of a "tripper" on > acid to the reality I'm faced with every day every second; it is very > possible that I am forced to deal with a society of people that do not > recognize that they are the ones "trippin'" -- in their > mis-cognizition or Miss Interpretation of the reality that exists they > have subordinated the truth of their hallucinatory experience as the > norm and have conginzed the hallucination as a status quo." > > Scott: Yeah, keep thinking they are like me, or I am like them, or we > are all humans or some thing like that. colette: Pink Floyd, Brain Damage, "I am you and what I see is me", no? I tried so hard to figure that one out in the 70s but once I started studying the Mysteries of the Western Theological traditions, I found out immediately what that meant, and have continued learning newer and greater meanings to that phrase. Yea, people have to use THE MIRROR consciousness but if they don't know even the fundamental aspects of THE MIRROR then their consciousness WILL CERTAINLY BE HALLUCINATORY AND DELUSIONARY. ---------------------------------------------- They might be boring but they > are me as I am them and we are us and we are all together. And then, > really, isn't it all about ME? colette: The Law of Deminishing Returns! At what point does the aspirant get "sick up and fed" with going over and over again to find the exact duplication of themselves, of their INTERNAL CONSCIOUSNESS, outside of themselves, EXTERNAL CONSCIOUSNESS before they begin to search for greater and more obvious TRUTHS? <...> ---------------------------------------- I mean I read where the mettaa stuff > starts with oneself as an example, like, 'I want me to be happy' and > then it goes to others. I wonder why they do it that way? Oh well, > one of the SWEET MYSTERIES. colette: I take it that you'd like to leave that as a rhetorical question and not have me add my two cents worth. --------------------------------- > > c: "'Life in the Food Chain' by Tonio K..." > > Scott: I've not thought of this album in years! Its in one of my > boxes downstairs. Too bad the turntable's busted. colette: just today I took a route home from N.W.University Hosp. that led me through the Gold Coast area to find that new construction had torn down the old Bang & Olfsen (B & O) outlet store. Turntable problems, huh? Ya gotta watch out how those tables turn, no? ------------------------------------- > > c: "Our hosts here have done something with your wording since they > placed the word "WHO" on the right side then "CARES" on the left side > which adds so much more to your post. Again, is it Alex or is it > Scott, did our hosts here perform the trick of placement of words and > letters or did you, Scott, intentionally place the letters and words > that way?" > > Scott: No, I wrote it that way. Who's Next, eh? > colette: another one of your rhetorical questions. Who knows who's on the hit list? <....> -------------------------------- > colette: "ah, 'confession is good for the soul', so it is true that > you, scott, actually had the hallucinationthat manifested Alex and > not the other way around since if it was Alex creating you then the > confession would have read that "the other person" Alex, was doing > the Clinging and Craving. I appreciate honesty which happens to be > just as relative and just as subjective as truth." > > Scott: Thanks colette. Mea culpa. I create the Alex I respond to. > colette: <...>what the heck does "mea culpa" mean? <....> Bros in arms comes to mind, no? ---------------------------------- > Have a good day or night or IN BETWEEN SPACE, colette. Nice chatting > with you. > colette: I adored chatting with a person that actually has a functioning micro-processor, or brain. It gets so boring believing that the only function I'm doing on the internet is conversing with a computer generated argumentation such as was found in the HAL2000 computer created by the University of IL for the 2001 Space Odessy Movie, but in the next movie where they revive the computer the computer ends up repeating over and over the same single line, something about the moon Europa, but that repeating behavior is an exact duplication or artistically expressed way of depicting an "ultra-conservative" programmed by WEstern religion. They have no brain to even consider saying any other line or phrase that they were not programmed to say, or as the script was written for them so that they could receive payment under SAG or AFTRA Union contracts as an actor reading the script that some other person wrote for them to say. Have a good one man! toodles, colette #81969 From: "Alex" Date: Tue Jan 29, 2008 2:08 pm Subject: Bare observation? Not doing anything? No control? truth_aerator Hi all, I just found this awesome sutta. --- "A monk endowed with six qualities is incapable of realizing the unexcelled cooled state. Which six? There is the case where a monk doesn't rein in his mind when it should be reined in. He doesn't exert his mind when it should be exerted. He doesn't gladden his mind when it should be gladdened. He doesn't watch over his mind when it should be watched over. He is intent on what is lowly. And he delights in self-identity. A monk endowed with these six qualities is incapable of realizing the unexcelled cooled state. "A monk endowed with six qualities is capable of realizing the unexcelled cooled state. Which six? There is the case where a monk reins in his mind when it should be reined in. He exerts his mind when it should be exerted. He gladdens his mind when it should be gladdened. He watches over his mind when it should be watched over. He is intent on what is exquisite. And he delights in Unbinding. A monk endowed with these six qualities is capable of realizing the unexcelled cooled state." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an06/an06.085.than.html This as well as many other suttas show that there is such thing as a deliberate choice. Simply going with the flow doesn't work. Lots of Metta, Alex #81970 From: "shennieca" Date: Tue Jan 29, 2008 2:27 pm Subject: Re: my last posting on this website shennieca Hi Dieter, all, I've been playing 'games'. Sorry. ;-)) Elaine: But they have not come out of the closet yet, maybe? ;-)) Dieter: I beg your pardon ..?! ;-)) Elaine: I knew my comments would ruffle a few feathers, both ways. I hope more members will speak out 'Clearly' about KS's 'special bhavana teachings' and say, "This is Not what the Buddha taught". Maybe it is already loud and clear but I'm 'deaf'. hahah. ;-)) Sorry about that, Dieter. I know some people like to be subtle because it is a safer route to take. ;-)) With mettaa & respect, Elaine :-)) #81971 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jan 29, 2008 10:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] James' Referenced Article on Personalism upasaka_howard Hi, Dieter - In a message dated 1/29/2008 3:14:04 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, moellerdieter@... writes: Hi Howard, you wrote: 'I'm afraid I don't understand your question. The whole teaching is addressing the suffering of sentient beings/persons, which I understand to be aggregations. I don't know what this "individual reality" you presume is supposed to be. Where did the Buddha ever refer to a person as an individual reality? D:suffering is the reality of the individual person , which is not simply aggregation but 'aggregation attachment ' , i.e. identification within the khandas :that I am , that is mine .. The Buddha addressed the person explaining the necessity of detachment in order to get rid of the ignorance/delusion. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: If you're saying that suffering is real and that your suffering and mine are not one and the same, I agree. ----------------------------------------------- H: When the three poisons can no longer ever arise in the aggregation we call "Dieter," then "Dieter has realized freedom." D: then we better don't speak of Dieter or Howard anymore .. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Again, I'm not sure what you mean. If you mean that at that point, for you or me, there no longer is the sense of an individual named Dieter or Howard, I agree. ----------------------------------------------- You may consider likewise ..(?) As the ongoing anatta discussion ( e.g. no person so no controll no initiative/training ) is concerned , the mentioning of our conventional truth avoids confusion.. which I tried to point out by my question .. ------------------------------------------- Howard: There IS a person. However, that person is not an individual but an aggregation of phenomena, and these phenomena, including acts of volition, do serve as conditions that influence further developments. That is what I mean when I speak of "control", and such control is quite real. There simply is no controller - no individual who is agent, actor, and controller. ------------------------------------------- with Metta Dieter ======================== With metta Howard #81972 From: han tun Date: Tue Jan 29, 2008 4:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Corner (80) hantun1 Dear Nina and All, > Nina: Thank you for your considerations. When reading your installment the other day I found it like a mirror: how far am I away from real patience. There are always specific objects, as we discussed before, domestic things, I find difficult to have patience with. Sometimes just small things. Such an installment makes one scrutinize one's conscience. Han: Thank you very much, Nina. I also find it difficult to have real patience: some are just small matters, as you said. But I hope to improve my patience as I reflect over and over again such reminders, and listening to wise advice from you and other DSG friends. Respectfully, Han #81973 From: han tun Date: Tue Jan 29, 2008 4:04 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Corner (80) hantun1 Dear Connie and All, > Connie: Dear Han, the Patience chapter is also one of my favorites and it seems we've picked some of the same quotes to reflect on. Han: I am very glad to know that this chapter is also one of your favorites. Let us reflect together on those useful quotes. Respectfully, Han #81974 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Jan 29, 2008 4:37 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] No convincing explanation ..[was Alleged Slowing Down..] dhammanusara Dear Dieter, - Thank you for the patience and kind understanding. Although the misunderstandings are small, you made a good effort to explain things out in detail. And I appreciate that. :-) >D: > > We may find issues of common interest at other opportunities again. T: You can bet on that ! Your friend, Tep === #81975 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Jan 29, 2008 4:54 pm Subject: something else / was Re: Hello im new member here. kenhowardau Hi Howard, -------- <. . .> H: > I thought about that. I have two beliefs in regard to intentional practice. I do believe that the Buddha very clearly taught specific intentional activities to engage in, and I do believe that if there were no intentional actions on the part of human beings that would lead to awakening, then the Dhamma would be no more than idle philosophy and no more useful for the goal of ending dukkha than the random activities of any non-Buddhist. -------- I don't want to sidetrack you by arguing every point, but I can't resist this one. Once you accept (even just intellectually) that there are only namas and rupas you will never see the need for a conventional practice again. Please continue. :-) ---------------------------------- H: > Yet there is a difference between our perspectives besides being diametrically opposite: I do not cling to either of these two beliefs, I recognize the possibility that each of them could be wrong, and I do not assert them as fact but only belief. ----------------------------------- That's very commendable, I'm sure. (And I mean that!) But let me put it to you another way. Do you remember my example of the boy scrubbing the floor who was told by his mother "Use some elbow grease?" I was quite pleased with that example, and Rob K commented on it favourably too, but you didn't comment on it at all. So I assume you weren't impressed. :-) But the point I want to make now is, once that boy eventually realised that his mother meant "put some effort into it - scrub harder," would he still keep an open mind about the nature of elbow grease? Would he still be checking the supermarket shelves just in case there really was a cleaning product by that name, in which case he would say, "Aha, so I was right the first time, this is what Mum meant!" No, of course he wouldn't! And in the same way I will never again see the Dhamma as a list of things to "do" - in the conventional sense of the word. -------------------------- H: > It is possible that I misread the suttas and that the Buddha's teaching was really purely descriptive - to the effect that should this happen, then that will happen, and that all "shoulds" and mentioning of "urgency" and "effort" are somehow misunderstood by me. I think it very unlikely, but I recognize that as a possibility, and, most of all, I value truth, whatever it may be, over opinion. -------------------------- It's not by choice. Even if I wanted to, I couldn't go back to a conventional version of the Dhamma. --------------------------------- H: > And I don't claim to HAVE the truth in my hands. -------------------------------- If I were to make any claim at all, I would say, "This is what K Sujin and her students are trying to tell me." By extension, I feel confident that this is what the Commentaries are telling KS and her students. The claims get shakier the further I go, but I also feel confident that this is what the Buddha (and the Tipitaka) were telling the Theras who wrote the commentaries - and so on. ------------------ H: > The same is true with regard to my second stated belief that "if there were no intentional actions on the part of human of human beings that would lead to awakening, then the Dhamma would be no more than descriptive philosophy whose study is no more useful for the goal of ending dukkha than the random activities of any non- Buddhist." ------------------ I agree. If there were no (and there aren't) intentional actions ON THE PART OF HUMAN BEINGS then there would be no awakening OF HUMAN BEINGS and the Dhamma would be of no use TO HUMAN BEINGS. If, however, you remove the concept of human beings from the equation, you just have dhammas. By conditions, dhammas can create concepts of human beings and they can also create belief in the efficacy of concepts. That is where they go wrong, but they can eventually go right. (By conditions!) -------------------------------- <. . .> H: > So, you also believe two things: 1) formal meditation was not taught anywhere in the Tipitaka, and 2) if you were wrong about that, then, "it wouldn't matter what false notions you read into the above sentence. In other words all Dhamma study would be a waste of time. If there could be just a little bit of control over conditioned dhammas (if rituals could be just a little bit efficacious) then anatta would be meaningless, and the entire Dhamma would be wrong." Ken you leave no room here for misunderstanding on your part. You assert outright, without hesitation, that if the Buddha taught formal meditation, then the entire Dhamma would be wrong. These are not just beliefs to you, tentatively held, but certainties. You assert that if the Buddha taught formal meditation and even an iota of "control", then the Dhamma is worthless. --------------------------------- I'm not sure how to answer that, but I'll come up with something.:-) Suppose I ask my mother next time I see her, "Mum, remember when you used to tell us kids to "use some elbow grease?" Did you mean we should go and buy something called Elbow Grease, the Miracle Floor Whitener, or did you mean we should scrub harder?" And suppose Mum answers, "The floor whitener, of course!" What should I say then? I think I will say, "You dill, that's not what the expression means at all! There's no such product as Elbow Grease." As you say, I could be wrong, but in this case that's unlikely, isn't it? ------------------ <. . .> KH : > . . . maybe you should think carefully before putting your own sutta translations above those of the ancient Theras. (?) Just a thought. :-) Howard: What in the world are you talking about? I don't produce sutta translations! Are you out of your mind? ------------------ Hold fire, I want to make a correction! I meant to say "interpretations" not "translations." :-) Ken H PS: I don't think we should worry too much about slandering the Buddha when we are just expressing our opinions on the Dhamma. None of us is claiming to be an infallible authority. We are just muddling along as best we can. KH #81976 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Jan 29, 2008 4:59 pm Subject: Re: my last posting on this website buddhatrue Hi Elaine, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "shennieca" wrote: > > Hello Bhante, > > I hope you can be compassionate to James. He gave his very sincere > reply with good intentions. I don't claim to know James very well, > but from his posts in DSG and other Buddhist forums, I can tell that > he is a very honest guy. :-)) He has this sense of humor that is very > subtle. Heheh ;-)) Thank you for the nice post. I sounds like you DO know me pretty well. :-) Metta, James #81977 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Jan 29, 2008 5:11 pm Subject: Re: James' Referenced Article on Personalism buddhatrue Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, James (and all) - > > I just completed reading the article at > _http://www.iep.utm.edu/p/pudgalav.htm_ (http://www.iep.utm.edu/p/pudgalav.htm) that you so kindly provided, > James, and I found it to be quite worthwhile in several respects. James: I'm glad you liked it. I also found it to be a thorough and balanced article. And it does explain that most of the writings of the personalists are lost, so it is just a hypothesis. For one > thing, it seems to give fairly complete and rather fair assessment of > personalism. For a second, in the process, many issues of importance are raised and > discussed. James: Yeah, reading it seemed like reading most of the issues raised on DSG on a continuing basis. > As for personalism, I view it as a species of atta-view not so far from > Brahmanism, and developed for the purpose of accounting for perceived > "problems" growing out of the no-self teaching, "problems" that can be dealt with, > the personalists seem to feel, only by (what I consider to be) surrender to > self-view. James: I still haven't decided yet. I'm still mulling it over. In fact, I see the so-called problems as apparently difficult of > solution due only to the failure of distinguishing aggregates from what I call > "aggregations," the difference being the critically important one of > relationship. The person, in my view, is neither an individual reality nor a mere > collection of random phenomena, but an integrated (dynamic) assemblage of > interrelated phenomena that act in concert. James: We had this discussion before reading the article, and I still don't understand what you mean by your description of the person. The person is either nothing more than an assemblage of parts, or there is something more there to account for the parts being continually assembled. For example, when the Abhidhamma describes the "re-linking consciousness" how is that any different than a self? This issue is not so cut and dry. Metta, James #81978 From: "Alex" Date: Tue Jan 29, 2008 5:12 pm Subject: something else / was Re: Hello im new member here. truth_aerator Hi Ken, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > I don't want to sidetrack you by arguing every point, but I can't > resist this one. Once you accept (even just intellectually) that > there are only namas and rupas you will never see the need for a > conventional practice again. >>>> A) Where is this said in the SUTTAS? B) At what stage does one accepts this? I personally understand that this ISN'T the first thing on the lists to achieve. Full Panna arises at Arahatship, not before. Sotapanna for example masters Sila, Anagami masters Samadhi. Trying to grab the most advance teaching without going through preliminaries can be deadly. > -------------------------- > > It's not by choice. Even if I wanted to, I couldn't go back to a > conventional version of the Dhamma. > --------------------------------- Maybe because you hold no-action, no-effort, no-initiative, determinism? > H: > And I don't claim to HAVE the truth in my hands. > -------------------------------- > > If I were to make any claim at all, I would say, "This is what K > Sujin and her students are trying to tell me." By extension, I feel > confident that this is what the Commentaries are telling KS and her > students. The claims get shakier the further I go, but I also feel > confident that this is what the Buddha (and the Tipitaka) were > telling the Theras who wrote the commentaries - and so on. >>>> Excuse me, but the Buddha has clearly said that Suttas and Vinaya are final authority. Never any elder monk, nun or group of them. Even in the Buddha's time there were deluded monks (Devadatta, Sati the fisherman's son, Arittha, and others). What if some of these sort of people posed as "Elders" ? I hope you understand this point. DN16. > ------------------ > If, however, you remove the concept of human beings from the > equation, you just have dhammas. By conditions, dhammas can create > concepts of human beings and they can also create belief in the > efficacy of concepts. That is where they go wrong, but they can > eventually go right. (By conditions!) >>>> If you remove the concept of human beings before you remove greed, anger & delusion (at least partially) - then you might end up like those heretics who say that "if I slaughter thousands of people, then no one really died. If you help thousands of people, then no one was really helped." Remember: And what is wrong view? 'There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed. There is no fruit or result of good or bad actions. There is no this world, no next world, no mother, no father, no spontaneously reborn beings; no priests or contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is wrong view. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.117.than.html > -------------------------------- > PS: I don't think we should worry too much about slandering the > Buddha when we are just expressing our opinions on the Dhamma. None > of us is claiming to be an infallible authority. We are just muddling > along as best we can. > > KH > "Monks, these two slander the Tathagata. Which two? He who explains what was not said or spoken by the Tathagata as said or spoken by the Tathagata. And he who explains what was said or spoken by the Tathagata as not said or spoken by the Tathagata. These are two who slander the Tathagata." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an02/an02.023.than.html Lots of Metta, Alex #81979 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Jan 29, 2008 5:55 pm Subject: Stages of Vipassanåpaññå [Was James' Article on Personalism] dhammanusara Hi Dieter and Howard (Nina, Elaine, Han)), - Can I give you my one-Yen-worth comment on this "personalism" too? I hope you don't mind reading a long post. >Howard: 'The person, in my view, is neither an individual reality nor a mere collection of random phenomena, but an integrated (dynamic) assemblage of interrelated phenomena that act in concert." >D: but the whole teaching is addressing the suffering of the individual reality, isn't it? ......................... T: Yes, Dieter, the Buddha said that his Teachings were all about dukkha and its cessation. SN 22.86: "Both formerly & now, it is only dukkha that I describe, and the cessation of dukkha." T: And what is dukkha? SN 56.11: "Birth is dukkha, aging is dukkha, death is dukkha; sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, & despair are dukkha; association with the unbeloved is dukkha; separation from the loved is dukkha; not getting what is wanted is dukkha. In short, the five clinging-aggregates are dukkha." T: As you said, Dieter, dukkha is defined for individuals who suffer aging, death, pain, grief, association with unpleasant people and things, lost of loved ones, and not getting what is wanted. However, along with the "individual reality" there is a danger that results from the identity view that clings to the khandhas as "mine, me, my self". Why? Because that clinging (upadana) leads all non-ariyans to dukkha (and rebirths) as explained by SN 56.11. Therefore, the non- ariyans must develop the ariyan's right view, i.e. seeing and knowing the nama & rupa the way they really are. This right view abandons the miccha-ditthi about individual/person like Howard stated (above), or as the Buddha taught in the Anatta-lakkhana Sutta (SN 22.59). http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.059.nymo.html T: When one has penetrated the ariya sacca s/he will no longer have identity views (20 sakkayaditthi) as if the whole world is empty of individuals and beings. Indeed, Khun Sujin says it all very clearly in 'Survey of Paramattha Dhammas', Chapter 30, The Stages of Vipassanå : "Before enlightenment can be attained, mahå-kusala citta which is ñåna-sampayutta, accompanied by paññå, has to consider and investigate the characteristics of all kinds of nåma and rúpa over and over again, life after life. In this way understanding of realities can grow. When paññå has become keener and more accomplished, mahå-kusala citta accompanied by paññå which is vipassanå ñåna, insight wisdom, can arise. The kind of paññå which is vipassanå ñåna can clearly realize through the mind-door the characteristics of nåma and rúpa, in accordance with the stages of insight which are successively reached. "There are several stages of insight which have to be reached before enlightenment can be attained. "The first stage of insight is knowledge of the difference between nåma and rúpa, nåma-rúpa-pariccheda-ñåna. Mahå-kusala citta ñåna-sampayutta arises and clearly distinguishes the difference between the characteristic of nåma and the characteristic of rúpa as they appear one at a time. The objects constituting “the world” appear as devoid of self. At that moment there is no attå-saññå, wrong remembrance of self, which used to remember or perceive realities as a “whole”, conceived as “the world”. There begins to be right remembrance of the realities which appear as anattå. "Satipatthåna should continue to be aware of all kinds of nåma and rúpa, in addition to those realized at the moment of vipassanå ñåna. When there is awareness of realities, paññå should consider again and again anattå-saññå penetrated at the moment of vipassanå ñåna. Otherwise attå-saññå which has been accumulated for a long time in the cycle of birth and death cannot be eradicated. "The second stage of vipassanå ñåna is discerning conditions for nåma and rúpa, paccaya-pariggaha-ñåna. When the moments of vipassanå ñåna have fallen away, the world appears as it used to appear, as a whole. The person who develops satipatthåna clearly knows the difference between the moment of vipassanå ñåna and the moment which is not vipassanå ñåna. When vipassanå ñåna has fallen away, ignorance and doubt about realities can arise again, since these defilements have not been eradicated. "When the first stage of insight has been reached there is full comprehension of what has been known, ñåta pariññå. Paññå realizes as they are the characteristics of realities which appear at the moments of vipassanå ñåna. Then there is no ignorance and doubt about those realities. The first stage of insight is only a beginning stage that can lead to the following stages of insight which penetrates more and more the characteristics of nåma and rúpa. "When satipatthåna continues to be mindful of the realities which appear and investigates their characteristics, there can be more understanding of their conditions. When one object appears at a time, paññå can realize that nåma, the element which experiences, arises because of conditions, that it is conditioned by that object. If there were no object appearing, nåma could not arise. Thus, whenever there is nåma, there must be an object experienced by nåma. When one object at a time appears, paññå can understand that the dhammas which arise are dependent on conditions. In this way paññå can see more clearly the nature of anattå of all dhammas and thus there will gradually be more detachment from the inclination to take objects for self. When the the factors of the eightfold Path, cetasikas included in sankhårakkhandha, have been developed to a higher degree, they can condition the arising of the second vipassanå ñåna. This is paccaya- pariggaha-ñåna which directly understands the dependency on conditions of nåma and rúpa at the moment they arise. Thus, there is awareness and direct understanding of the arising of realities such as hearing, sound, pleasant feeling, unpleasant feeling or thinking. "All these dhammas, arising each because of their own conditions, are realized one at a time, as clearly distinct from each other. They are realized as devoid of self". [end of quote] ..................... Thanks to Nina who emailed the above KS writing to me in one of her posts. I think Khun Sujin has done a great job summarizing the relevant stages of vipassanåpaññå. Tep === > #81980 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Jan 29, 2008 6:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Are thoughts vipaka? lbidd2 Hi Howard, Howard: "Certain subsequent, resultant states in one's mind stream are the vipaka." Larry: Taking an orthodox view, I would have to say there is a difference between cause and effect. on the one hand, and kamma and kamma result, on the other. Kamma and kamma result is one kind of cause and effect, but conditioned arising in general is all cause and effect. There are 24 conditions, so there are 24 kinds of cause. Taking your example of loving kindness as mental act and physical act, we might say those acts condition the arising of feeling good (wholesome) by way of natural decisive support condition. But even though 'feeling good' is an effect, abhidhamma still classifies it as a mental act (volition) with possible kammic consequences. However, if the feeling wholesome conditions bodily feeling, that bodily feeling is considered to be kamma result because it accompanies bodily consciousness. But I don't think this pleasant bodily feeling is considered to be the kamma result of that particular act of kindness, even though it is the effect of that act of kindness. It is considered to be the kamma result of some unknown virtuous act in a previous life. I think that's right, but Nina might have something to say. Larry #81981 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Jan 29, 2008 6:42 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Outline of Purification of View V.4 lbidd2 Hi Nina, Nina: "It is such a heavy job and time consuming to decypher the tiika. But I do not regret it." Larry: I am constantly amazed. This is truly a _big_ project, explaining what, to me, is the most difficult chapter in the Visuddhimagga. Your generosity knows no bounds, Nina. I should send you a 'thank you' note ever day. I know you are too busy for this 'outline' project. Don't worry about it. I'm just pushing Sarah because I think she would appreciate it. Larry #81982 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jan 29, 2008 1:49 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] something else / was Re: Hello im new member here. upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 1/29/2008 7:55:10 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi Howard, -------- <. . .> H: > I thought about that. I have two beliefs in regard to intentional practice. I do believe that the Buddha very clearly taught specific intentional activities to engage in, and I do believe that if there were no intentional actions on the part of human beings that would lead to awakening, then the Dhamma would be no more than idle philosophy and no more useful for the goal of ending dukkha than the random activities of any non-Buddhist. -------- I don't want to sidetrack you by arguing every point, but I can't resist this one. Once you accept (even just intellectually) that there are only namas and rupas you will never see the need for a conventional practice again. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I disagree, Ken. And I would add that it's not namas and rupas "period", but namas and rupas in relation. ---------------------------------------------------------------- Please continue. :-) ---------------------------------- H: > Yet there is a difference between our perspectives besides being diametrically opposite: I do not cling to either of these two beliefs, I recognize the possibility that each of them could be wrong, and I do not assert them as fact but only belief. ----------------------------------- That's very commendable, I'm sure. (And I mean that!) But let me put it to you another way. Do you remember my example of the boy scrubbing the floor who was told by his mother "Use some elbow grease?" I was quite pleased with that example, and Rob K commented on it favourably too, but you didn't comment on it at all. So I assume you weren't impressed. :-) --------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Maybe I missed it. I don't remember it, Ken. -------------------------------------------------------------- But the point I want to make now is, once that boy eventually realised that his mother meant "put some effort into it - scrub harder," would he still keep an open mind about the nature of elbow grease? Would he still be checking the supermarket shelves just in case there really was a cleaning product by that name, in which case he would say, "Aha, so I was right the first time, this is what Mum meant!" -------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: That reminds me of my example of a person asking a farmer, when told that a sprout has the power to grow into a plant, where in the sprout that power is located. ------------------------------------------------------------ No, of course he wouldn't! And in the same way I will never again see the Dhamma as a list of things to "do" - in the conventional sense of the word. ------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: We disagree. :-) ------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------- H: > It is possible that I misread the suttas and that the Buddha's teaching was really purely descriptive - to the effect that should this happen, then that will happen, and that all "shoulds" and mentioning of "urgency" and "effort" are somehow misunderstood by me. I think it very unlikely, but I recognize that as a possibility, and, most of all, I value truth, whatever it may be, over opinion. -------------------------- It's not by choice. Even if I wanted to, I couldn't go back to a conventional version of the Dhamma. ------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't think it's a matter of conventional versus ultimate, but in conflating the two. I believe that you take the fact that there is no agent who acts and turn it into the impossibility of action. In any case, Ken, it;s just plain we disagree. That wasn't my point, though. My point was the importance of distinguishing belief from knowing of truth. ------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------- H: > And I don't claim to HAVE the truth in my hands. -------------------------------- If I were to make any claim at all, I would say, "This is what K Sujin and her students are trying to tell me." --------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: That would be true. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- By extension, I feel confident that this is what the Commentaries are telling KS and her students. The claims get shakier the further I go, but I also feel confident that this is what the Buddha (and the Tipitaka) were telling the Theras who wrote the commentaries - and so on. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Confidence is fine. We both have it. No problem with that. ------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------ H: > The same is true with regard to my second stated belief that "if there were no intentional actions on the part of human of human beings that would lead to awakening, then the Dhamma would be no more than descriptive philosophy whose study is no more useful for the goal of ending dukkha than the random activities of any non- Buddhist." ------------------ I agree. If there were no (and there aren't) intentional actions ON THE PART OF HUMAN BEINGS then there would be no awakening OF HUMAN BEINGS and the Dhamma would be of no use TO HUMAN BEINGS. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: When one wants to speak of a khandhic aggregation, language requires using a singular denotation. The one I'm using here is "human being". There's a Pali word for that, Ken, which I forget.l; The Buddha used it. Would it make you happier if I used the Pali word? ! --------------------------------------------------------------- If, however, you remove the concept of human beings from the equation, you just have dhammas. By conditions, dhammas can create concepts of human beings and they can also create belief in the efficacy of concepts. That is where they go wrong, but they can eventually go right. (By conditions!) -------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Ken you know what my understanding is about persons. You know that I view them as nothing other than aggregationhs of paramatthaa dhammas. Now I'm just getting bored! --------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------- <. . .> H: > So, you also believe two things: 1) formal meditation was not taught anywhere in the Tipitaka, and 2) if you were wrong about that, then, "it wouldn't matter what false notions you read into the above sentence. In other words all Dhamma study would be a waste of time. If there could be just a little bit of control over conditioned dhammas (if rituals could be just a little bit efficacious) then anatta would be meaningless, and the entire Dhamma would be wrong." Ken you leave no room here for misunderstanding on your part. You assert outright, without hesitation, that if the Buddha taught formal meditation, then the entire Dhamma would be wrong. These are not just beliefs to you, tentatively held, but certainties. You assert that if the Buddha taught formal meditation and even an iota of "control", then the Dhamma is worthless. --------------------------------- I'm not sure how to answer that, but I'll come up with something.:-) Suppose I ask my mother next time I see her, "Mum, remember when you used to tell us kids to "use some elbow grease?" Did you mean we should go and buy something called Elbow Grease, the Miracle Floor Whitener, or did you mean we should scrub harder?" And suppose Mum answers, "The floor whitener, of course!" What should I say then? I think I will say, "You dill, that's not what the expression means at all! There's no such product as Elbow Grease." As you say, I could be wrong, but in this case that's unlikely, isn't it? -------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: My interest is waning, Ken. I'm sorry. I'm tiring of this. ---------------------------------------------------------- ------------------ <. . .> KH : > . . . maybe you should think carefully before putting your own sutta translations above those of the ancient Theras. (?) Just a thought. :-) Howard: What in the world are you talking about? I don't produce sutta translations! Are you out of your mind? ------------------ Hold fire, I want to make a correction! I meant to say "interpretations" not "translations." :-) -------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Ah, okay. Much better. In that case, I simply refer you to the Kalama Sutta, especially with regard to "authority". ---------------------------------------------------------------- Ken H PS: I don't think we should worry too much about slandering the Buddha when we are just expressing our opinions on the Dhamma. None of us is claiming to be an infallible authority. We are just muddling along as best we can. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: So long as we merely claim belief and confidence, and not certain knowledge of truth, we will do just fine. -------------------------------------------------------------- KH ============================ With metta, Howard #81983 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Tue Jan 29, 2008 6:49 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Are thoughts vipaka? dcwijeratna Hi Elaine, "Mano pubba"ngamaa dhammaa Mano se.t.thaa manomayaa Manasaa ce padu.t.thena bhaasati vaa karoti vaa Tato na.m dukkhamanveti cakka.m va vahato pada.m" [Dhammapada Verse No. 1] Second verse: "... pasannena...sukha.." "Mind is the forerunner of all dhammaas..." Deserve your attention I think. Mettaa, DC #81984 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Jan 29, 2008 7:00 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Outline of Purification of View V.8 lbidd2 Hi Nina, We have only completed the purification of view and already we have overcome the perception of a being. Yet, we are far from the eradication of self view that characterizes a sotapanna. This might be a little early for this question, but one point Htoo made was that tender insight isn't insight knowledge. We might keep that in mind and look for differences when we get to the insight knowledges. Larry #81985 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Jan 29, 2008 7:21 pm Subject: Re: Buddha refutes no self-agency, no other-agency, no initiative! scottduncan2 Dear Alex, Thanks for the reply: A: "Do we agree that: A) Buddha's path requires element of arousal, initiative, energy, etc? [Scott: In Note 60: 'Spk: The element of arousal (aarambahadhaatu) is the initial phase of energy, the element of endeavour (nikkamadhaatu) intermediate energy, the element of exertion (parakkamadhaatu) energy at full intensity.']" Scott: Probably not. You will most likely suggest that when one can decide by just thinking about it that one is going to arouse oneself and initiate some energy to walk on the Buddha's path. A: "B) Buddha's path MUST be fulfilled in ALL its factors?" Scott: Probably not because you likely think that the Buddha's path is something you can actually and literally walk on when you decide to get somewhere on it. Let's look at viriya. Dhammasa"nga.ni: "What on that occasion is the faculty of energy (viriyindriya.m)? The mental inception of energy which is there on that occasion, the striving and the onward effort, the exertion and endeavour, the zeal and ardour, the vigour and fortitude, the state of unfaltering effort, the state of sustained desire, the state of unflinching endurance and solid grip of the burden, energy, energy as faculty and as power, right endeavour - this is the energy that there then is." Scott: Viriya is a cetasika. In the above please note that viriya cetasika is described in terms of its function as a constituent of a multiply constellated moment of consciousness. Please note that this cetasika is 'the mental inception of energy'. This means to me that we are dealing with the function of this mental factor during its conascent arising with citta and concomitant mental factors. 'Energy' is not the doing of some task by a person, but rather, viriya gives to a moment of consciousness all of the aspects described above. It has nothing to do with running around like a chicken with its head cut off. It has its effect in the moment and in relation to the same object taken by citta in any given moment. As Buddhagosa clarifies (Atthasaalinii p. 159), "energy has exerting as its characteristic, strengthening co-existent states as function, and opposition to giving way as manifestation." This is its function in the moment, Alex. You are misconstruing the characteristics and functions of viriya when you conceptualise them in relation to a person. The characteristics and functions of any mental factor are only relevant to the moment of conciousness in which they arise conascent with citta. The conditions which cause dhammas to arise in sequence are what perpetuate the 'stream'. The person is conceptualised and entirely epiphenomenal. Sincerely, Scott. #81986 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Jan 29, 2008 7:34 pm Subject: Re: my last posting on this website buddhatrue Hi Colette (and Ven. P.), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "colette" wrote: > > Good Morning James, > > colette: help me out here: where in the Patimokkha does it rebuke the > posting on internet discussion groups? James: It doesn't. That was my opinion. I mean a monk can be HIGHLY > ISSOLATED AND HIGHLY LONEY, James: A monk in Thailand isn't going to be isolated- there are thousands of fellow monks around. Thailand is crawling with monks and many of them learn and speak English. As far as being lonely, that is a state of mind. You can have lots of people around you and still feel lonely, and you can be all alone and not feel lonely at all. My impression about Ven. P isn't that he feels lonely, it is that he continues to look for the Dhamma outside of himself. He feels panic thinking he might have "missed something" valuable outside of himself. So he looks for the answers in others, when all of the answers he seeks are within himself. You don't become a monk to find the answers somewhere "out there", you become a monk to afford you the opportunity to find the answers within. As the Buddha taught, the Four Noble Truths are to be found within "this fathom long body", not on DSG, E-Sangha, at the Foundation, in the Abhidhamma, or in the Suttas. If you are always looking for the answers outside of yourself, you will never find them and will always feel anxious. Colette, you and Ven. P may think I am some sort of jerk or monster, but that is okay- I am used to that. I tell people things I think they need to hear, even if it pisses them off. And, if you don't like it, that's no reason to quit DSG- just don't read my posts. No one is forcing you to and I wouldn't be bothered at all. Metta, James #81987 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Jan 29, 2008 8:19 pm Subject: Vism.XVII,235 Vism.XVII,236 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga), Ch. XVII 235. When visible-data craving occurs enjoying with sense-desire enjoyment a visible datum as object that has come into the focus of the eye, it is called craving for sense desires. But when [that same visible-data craving] occurs along with the eternity view that assumes that same object to be lasting and eternal, it is called craving for becoming; for it is the greed accompanying the eternity view that is called craving for becoming. When it occurs along with the annihilation view that assumes that same object to break up and be destroyed, it is called craving for non-becoming. So also in the case of craving for sounds, and so on. These amount to eighteen kinds of craving. The eighteen with respect to one's own visible data (one's own appearance), etc., and eighteen with respect to external [visible data (another's appearance), etc.,] together make thirty-six kinds. Thirty-six in the past, thirty-six in the future, and thirty-six in the present, make one-hundred-and-eight kinds of craving. When these are reduced again, they should be understood to amount to the six kinds only with visible data, etc., as object; and these, to three only, as craving for sense desires, and so on. 236. Out of selfish affection for feeling after taking pleasure in it when it arises through a visible datum as object, etc., these beings accord much honour to painters, musicians, perfumers, cooks, weavers, distillers of elixirs,39 physicians, etc., who furnish respectively visible data as object, etc., just as out of affection for a child they reward the child's nurse after taking pleasure in the child. That is why it should be understood that these three kinds of craving have feeling as their condition. ---------------------- Note 39. Rasaayana--'elixir': not in P.T.S. Dict; cf. DA. 568 and UdA. (commentary to Ud, VIII, 5). ************************ 235. ruupata.nhaayeva hi yadaa cakkhussa aapaathamaagata.m ruupaaramma.na.m kaamassaadavasena assaadayamaanaa pavattati, tadaa kaamata.nhaa naama hoti. yadaa tadevaaramma.na.m ``dhuva.m sassata''nti pavattaaya sassatadi.t.thiyaa saddhi.m pavattati, tadaa bhavata.nhaa naama hoti. sassatadi.t.thisahagato hi raago bhavata.nhaati vuccati. yadaa pana tadevaaramma.na.m ``ucchijjati vinassatii´´ti pavattaaya ucchedadi.t.thiyaa saddhi.m pavattati, tadaa vibhavata.nhaa naama hoti. ucchedadi.t.thisahagato hi raago vibhavata.nhaati vuccati. esa nayo saddata.nhaadiisupiiti. etaa a.t.thaarasa ta.nhaa honti. taa ajjhattaruupaadiisu a.t.thaarasa, bahiddhaa a.t.thaarasaati chatti.msa. iti atiitaa chatti.msa, anaagataa chatti.msa, paccuppannaa chatti.msaati a.t.thasata.m ta.nhaa honti. taa puna sa"nkheppamaa.naa ruupaadiaaramma.navasena cha, kaamata.nhaadivasena vaa tissova ta.nhaa hontiiti veditabbaa. 236. yasmaa panime sattaa putta.m assaadetvaa putte mamattena dhaatiyaa viya ruupaadiaaramma.navasena uppajjamaana.m vedana.m assaadetvaa vedanaaya mamattena ruupaadiaaramma.nadaayakaana.m cittakaara-gandhabba-gandhika-suuda-tantavaayarasaayanavidhaayakavejjaadiina.m mahaasakkaara.m karonti. tasmaa sabbaapesaa vedanaapaccayaa ta.nhaa hotiiti veditabbaa. #81988 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Tue Jan 29, 2008 9:05 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Are thoughts vipaka? dcwijeratna Hi Elaine, Many thanks for your e-m. First a little clarification. I think my question: "1. What is meaning is ascribed to thinking? Is it possible to find a sutta definition-- not commentary-- of thinking." should have been written as: What is Paali word for thinking? I think though we cannot define 'to think' in an unambiguous way, we all understand the meaning of the verb. For a formal definition please see the Oxford dictionary. The Paali word that is closest in meaning to 'think' is ma~n~nati. The PTS dictionary gives: 1. to think, to be of opinion, to imagine, to deem, as some of the meanings. It is a lengthy article and you can get it from the ADSL website. The word 'mana' (mind) is derived from this. The sutta references you have given all relate to an analysis in accordance with dependent arising (idapaccayataa)--another name for pa.ticca-samuppaada. But puthujjanas cannot understand that "raagarattaa na dakkhatii tamokkhandena avu.taati." [Vinaya mahaavagga] The word ma~n~nati and mano belongs to ordinary language (vohaara). Using that language, we are born because of our past kamma. If we have no previous kamma, we wouldn't be born. Kammakkhaya is another way of talking about nibbaana. So, in a manner of speaking, all we do here--think, sing, dance-- is kamma vipaaka. However, when we think, we do it by ourselves creating further kamma, especially, when it leads to action, by word, body or mind. In that sense, thinking is not caused by past kamma. Therefore, I think, this is the proper way to talk about thinking. This is my understanding of the matter. One point please do not mix this with so-called "abhidhammic analysis with vipaaka cittas. I might also take this opportunity to talk of some of the DSG interpretations of the Teaching of the Buddha. Well according to the Buddha's teaching, we are all in sa.msaara because of delusion (avijjaa paccayaa sa.mkhaaraa). One of the things as I mentioned above is we don't understand pa.ticca-samuppaada. Anybody who claims to understand PS should be an arahant. There seems to be lot of people who make such claims, I think, looking at the correspondence in the DSG. But they are deluded people. They do not understand that they do not understand. Really, they are so attached to their beliefs and are totally deaf to others. Dhammapada characterizes them "Baalo ca pa.nditamaanii save baaloti vuccati!" Really, a definition of baala. So one should have compassion on them; but avoid them like plague. With kind regards, D. G. D. C. Wijeratna #81989 From: Sukinder Date: Tue Jan 29, 2008 9:42 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Are thoughts vipaka? sukinderpal D.G.D.C.W............ > > > > I might also take this opportunity to talk of some of the DSG > interpretations of the Teaching of the Buddha. Well according to the > Buddha's teaching, we are all in sa.msaara because of delusion > (avijjaa paccayaa sa.mkhaaraa). One of the things as I mentioned above > is we don't understand pa.ticca-samuppaada. Anybody who claims to > understand PS should be an arahant. There seems to be lot of people > who make such claims, I think, looking at the correspondence in the > DSG. But they are deluded people. They do not understand that they do > not understand. Really, they are so attached to their beliefs and are > totally deaf to others. Dhammapada characterizes them "Baalo ca > pa.nditamaanii save baaloti vuccati!" Really, a definition of baala. > So one should have compassion on them; but avoid them like plague. > Having compassion for them you also let them know that they are *fools* and should be avoided like a plague!!? BTW, is there a pali for DUFFER specifically or does baalo cover this as well? Sukin #81990 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jan 29, 2008 11:24 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: my last posting on this website sarahprocter... Hi James, (Ven P. & all) --- buddhatrue wrote: >...You cannot possibly learn anything of worth from a > householder (including KS). > > I have spent many years interacting with monks and never, once, did > one come to me or any other householder to learn the Dhamma. .... S: I have a very different experience. I've known many, many excellent and well-known bhikkhus who have listened to and do listen to householders (including KS). These include bhikkhus with the highest regard for the Vinaya. This has been my experience in many countries. When I lived in London, Ven Saddhatissa and other bhikkhus would invite lay-people such as ourselves to give talks regularly. In Sri Lanka, many well-known bhikkhus (inc. B.Bodhi) would attend the talks to listen to KS and others. In Thailand and India, it's the same. Do you have any Vinaya rules which suggest a bhikkhu cannot listen and learn from a householder? Of course not! We can find examples of just this in the Tipitaka. For example, Citta the householder has a Samyutta named after him in SN. He was praised by the Bhuddha for his teaching. In the very first sutta there, ('The Fetter, SN 41:1), some senior bhikkhus were having a dispute about the meaning of 'fetter'. Citta, the householder approached these bhikkhus, paid his respects and then explained the meaning of fetter: "....the eye is not the fetter of forms nor are forms the fetter of the eye, but rather the desire and lust that arises there in dependence on both: that is the fetter there......" At the end, the bhikkhus said: "It is a gain for you, householder, it is well gained by you, householder, in that you have the eye of wisdom that ranges over the deep Word of the Buddha." S: Personally I appreciate it when anyone is not overcome by conceit or other defilements and is able to listen to what a 'junior' or householder is able to explain. We all need to be able to listen to true Dhamma. [Whether we consider some householders have any knowledge worth explaining is another point entirely and of course depends on our understanding!] Metta, Sarah ======== #81991 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Jan 29, 2008 11:32 pm Subject: something else / was Re: Hello im new member here. kenhowardau Hi Alex, Thank you for the good questions. ------ <. . .> KH: > > I don't want to sidetrack you by arguing every point, but I can't > resist this one. Once you accept (even just intellectually) that > there are only namas and rupas you will never see the need for a > conventional practice again. >>>> Alex: > A) Where is this said in the SUTTAS? B) At what stage does one accepts this? ---------------- A) To my mind it is said everywhere in the suttas. Especially if you read the official Theravadin commentaries to the suttas, you will find that all suttas describe namas and rupas. I don't expect you to agree because you disapprove of commentaries. You prefer your own interpretations. So, what can I tell you? I could tell you that the suttas describe eye, visible object, seeing consciousness, contact and the feeling dependent upon contact as anicca dukkha and anatta. These things are namas and rupas. You think the eye is the fleshy organ known by that name, and you think visible object is a house, table or kasina - or whatever other concept is being 'looked at.' I'm not sure what you might imagine seeing consciousness or feeling to be, but no doubt you think contact is the physical collision of material particles. If you will only listen to the experts, like I do, you will find that the suttas are telling you something completely new and unique. So how about it? Interested? :-) (Maybe some other day - some other lifetime.) B) At the pariyatti stage one accepts this at an intellectual (theoretical) level of understanding. As you know, there are also more advance levels of acceptance (patipatti and pativedha). ----------------------- A: > I personally understand that this ISN'T the first thing on the lists to achieve. Full Panna arises at Arahatship, not before. Sotapanna for example masters Sila, Anagami masters Samadhi. ----------------------- Well, there we must disagree. I can only repeat what the Theravada texts say about it. ------------------ <. . .> A: > Excuse me, but the Buddha has clearly said that Suttas and Vinaya are final authority. Never any elder monk, nun or group of them. Even in the Buddha's time there were deluded monks (Devadatta, Sati the fisherman's son, Arittha, and others). What if some of these sort of people posed as "Elders" ? I hope you understand this point. DN16. ------------------- Others here have given you the Theravadin interpretation of that text and you have rejected it. That is your prerogative. I am sure you won't mind if I prefer the official interpretation over yours. Thanks again for the good questions. I am always glad to discuss these things. Ken H #81992 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jan 30, 2008 12:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] my last posting on this website sarahprocter... Dear Bhante, --- pannabahulo wrote: > " Bhikkhus, in regard to external factors, I do not perceive another > single factor so helpful as good friendship for a Bhikkhu who is a > learner, who has not attained perfection but lives aspiring for the > supreme security from bondage. Bhikkhus, a Bhikkhu who has a good > friend abandons what is unwholesome and develops what is wholesome" > (The Itivuttaka 17) .... S: I appreciate these lines too. Good friendship is very essential. I also appreciate the value you see in being 'a learner'. It takes a real understanding of the Dhamma to be a learner. ... <...> > The > suttas are full of examples of argument and disagreement with the > Buddha. > But personal and slanderous attacks are certainly Adhamma. .... S: Yes and certainly personal/slanderous attacks are not tolerated here. As I mentioned the other day, we are here to discuss Dhamma, not personal attacks of any kinds as everyone knows. Some people here (like James) come from very dysfunctional families and have ways of expression which are often inappropriate/too strong. As Elaine said, we can have compassion for such friends. I believe you understand this from your comments about your background too. Of course, background issues are not any excuse. Everyone has to learn to be tolerant and courteous in speech. We certainly apologise for any seeming disprespect to you, a bhikkhu, even if it wasn't intended as such. ... > "A man of wisdom should be truthful, without arrogance, without > deceit, not slanderous and not hateful. He should go beyond the evil > of greed and miserliness". (SN Attadanda Sutta). ... S: Very well said. I know your letter must have taken considerable time and trouble to write. We'll be very glad if you feel you can continue to contribute here in due course. Metta, Sarah ========== #81993 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Jan 30, 2008 12:49 am Subject: [dsg] Re: my last posting on this website buddhatrue Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott > This has been my experience in many countries. When I lived in London, Ven > Saddhatissa and other bhikkhus would invite lay-people such as ourselves > to give talks regularly. In Sri Lanka, many well-known bhikkhus (inc. > B.Bodhi) would attend the talks to listen to KS and others. In Thailand > and India, it's the same. James: Just because this happened that doesn't make it the norm: This was said by the Blessed One, said by the Arahant, so I have heard: "Monks, brahmans & householders are very helpful to you, as they provide you with the requisites of robes, alms food, lodgings, & medical requisites for the sick. And you, monks, are very helpful to brahmans & householders, as you teach them the Dhamma admirable in the beginning, admirable in the middle, admirable in the end; as you expound the holy life both in its particulars & in its essence, entirely complete, surpassingly pure. In this way the holy life is lived in mutual dependence, for the purpose of crossing over the flood, for making a right end to stress." Householders & the homeless in mutual dependence both reach the true Dhamma: the unsurpassed safety from bondage. From householders, the homeless receive requisites: robes, lodgings, protection from inclemencies. While in dependence on those well-gone, home-loving householders have conviction in arahants of noble discernment, absorbed in jhana. Having practiced the Dhamma here — the path leading to good destinations — delighting in the deva world, they rejoice, enjoying sensual pleasures. > > Do you have any Vinaya rules which suggest a bhikkhu cannot listen and > learn from a householder? Of course not! We can find examples of just this > in the Tipitaka. > > For example, Citta the householder has a Samyutta named after him in SN. > He was praised by the Bhuddha for his teaching. James: Citta reached the stage of non-return, through meditation. Sarah, have you reached that stage? Has KS reached that stage? If not, neither one of you are worthy to teach monks or nuns. > S: Personally I appreciate it when anyone is not overcome by conceit or > other defilements and is able to listen to what a 'junior' or householder > is able to explain. We all need to be able to listen to true Dhamma. > [Whether we consider some householders have any knowledge worth explaining > is another point entirely and of course depends on our understanding!] James: I don't see any householders today worthy of teaching the Dhamma to monks and nuns. If you see some, please point them out to me. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======== > Metta, James #81994 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Jan 30, 2008 1:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] my last posting on this website buddhatrue Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Some people here (like James) come from very dysfunctional families and > have ways of expression which are often inappropriate/too strong. If you want to talk trash about me, I think it would be better to do it off-list. You have just discounted anything I might post to this list because I come from a "dysfunctional family" (who doesn't?). Ven. P might as well stick around because I am leaving. Metta, James #81995 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jan 30, 2008 1:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: my last posting on this website sarahprocter... Hi James, --- buddhatrue wrote: > James: Just because this happened that doesn't make it the norm: > > This was said by the Blessed One, said by the Arahant, so I have > heard: "Monks, brahmans & householders are very helpful to you, as > they provide you with the requisites of robes, alms food, lodgings, & > medical requisites for the sick. And you, monks, are very helpful to > brahmans & householders, as you teach them the Dhamma admirable in the > beginning, admirable in the middle, admirable in the end; as you > expound the holy life both in its particulars & in its essence, > entirely complete, surpassingly pure. In this way the holy life is > lived in mutual dependence, for the purpose of crossing over the > flood, for making a right end to stress." ... S: The point was that you were implying that it is wrong for a bhikkhu to listen to or learn from a householder. You haven't found any rule and I indicated that, even though it may be unusual, it's perfectly acceptable as far as the Vinaya is concerned. I think it also helps to remember that in terms of wisdom, there is a deeper meaning of 'bhikkhu', as Larry quoted before from the Satipatthana Sutta and commentary: >"Way 20: Further, when that highest kind of person, the bhikkhu, is reckoned, the rest too are reckoned, as in regard to a royal procession and the like, when the king is reckoned, by the reckoning of the king, the retinue is reckoned. Also the word "bhikkhu" was used by the Buddha to point out the bhikkhu-state through practice of the teaching in this way: "He who practices this practice of the Arousing of Mindfulness is called a bhikkhu." He who follows the teaching, be he a shining one [deva] or a human, is indeed called a bhikkhu. Accordingly it is said: "Well-dressed one may be, but if one is calm, Tamed, humble, pure, a man who does no harm To aught that lives, that one's a brahman true. An ascetic and mendicant too.""< ... > James: Citta reached the stage of non-return, through meditation. <...> ... S: It's true, we don't have Citta's wisdom, therefore we all need to listen to all our good friends. . .... > James: I don't see any householders today worthy of teaching the > Dhamma to monks and nuns. If you see some, please point them out to me. ... S: In the end, the 'association with good friends' comes down to the 'association with right understanding'. In other words, it is the wise reflection and right view arising now which is the 'association with good friends' and 'association with the Dhamma', no matter we're alone, with householders, monks or nuns. Someone may be with the Buddha but have no 'wise association'. Another may be with thieves and robbers, yet have 'wise association' by way of right understanding of dhammas at that very time. This is why, as Scott repeatedly stresses, in the end, it is the Dhamma which is our teacher only. Thanks for helping me to reflect on this topic further! Metta, Sarah ======== #81996 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 30, 2008 1:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Samatha. was: my last posting on this website nilovg Dear Elaine, I am sorry to say, but you have not understood what Kh Sujin meant when she spoke about bhaavanaa. You and others keep on saying that she is against samatha, but as Sarah explained many times, this is a grave misunderstanding. She likes to help people to understand what jhana is and what jhana is not, but what people only take for jhana. It is best to read what she actually said instead of blaming her without any grounds. I quote from her book Survey of Paramattha Dhammas: Then she goes extensively into the cultivation of all these subjects. Is there anything here that is against the Buddha's teachings? If you want to read all, here is the link: http://www.abhidhamma.org/Para11.htm Nina. Op 29-jan-2008, om 23:27 heeft shennieca het volgende geschreven: > Elaine: I knew my comments would ruffle a few feathers, both ways. I > hope more members will speak out 'Clearly' about KS's 'special bhavana > teachings' and say, "This is Not what the Buddha taught". #81997 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jan 30, 2008 1:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] my last posting on this website sarahprocter... Hi James, --- buddhatrue wrote: >You have just discounted anything I might post to this > list because I come from a "dysfunctional family" (who doesn't?). > Ven. P might as well stick around because I am leaving. ... S: Both you (and Ven P) have written at length about your difficult backgrounds and I'm sure you've used the word 'dysfunctional' or much stronger. No, it doesn't discount anything you've said. As I said, it's never an excuse for any kilesa which arise because of tendencies for such. I hope you both 'stick around' and apologise for messing up! I'll keep quiet now:). Let's all cut the drama and stick to the Dhamma.... Metta, Sarah ======== #81998 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 30, 2008 1:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Outline of Purification of View V.8 nilovg Hi Larry, Op 30-jan-2008, om 4:00 heeft LBIDD@... het volgende geschreven: > We have only completed the purification of view and already we have > overcome the perception of a being. Yet, we are far from the > eradication > of self view that characterizes a sotapanna. > > This might be a little early for this question, but one point Htoo > made > was that tender insight isn't insight knowledge. We might keep that in > mind and look for differences when we get to the insight knowledges. -------- N: Tender insight, taru.na vipassanaa, is insight, but it is in its primes. It is not thinking about nama and rupa, but the direct experience of their different characteristics. At the moment of the arising of this stage there is no world, no person, only nama and rupa. But, as Kh S. explained, when those moments have fallen away, the world appears as usual. One has to continue developing understanding of all namas and rupas that appear. Nina. #81999 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 30, 2008 1:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Outline of Purification of View V.4 nilovg Hi Larry, Op 30-jan-2008, om 3:42 heeft LBIDD@... het volgende geschreven: > Larry: I am constantly amazed. This is truly a _big_ project, > explaining > what, to me, is the most difficult chapter in the Visuddhimagga. Your > generosity knows no bounds, Nina. I should send you a 'thank you' note > ever day. > > I know you are too busy for this 'outline' project. Don't worry about > it. I'm just pushing Sarah because I think she would appreciate it. -------- N: You are very kind. But I always like to add some comments on the following chapters, 18 and further, as these come along. I do not have the Tiikas of those, and at times I am curious about these, but I should keep to my work on ch XVII. This will still take another year, I guess. Who is doing the typing, that is also quite a job? You typed out Ch 18, which I appreciate very much. Connie is very busy with the Sisters, we cannot ask her. Nina.