#82000 From: "kanchaa" Date: Wed Jan 30, 2008 3:04 am Subject: Re: Hello im new member here. kanchuu2003 Dear Steven, Heartily Welcome you to our group! Hope that together, we all live quiet and disciplined life, sharing our knowledge.. Sincerely, Nitesh #82001 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 30, 2008 3:15 am Subject: Alone with Dhamma, Ch 2, no 3. nilovg Dear friends, We read in the “Kindred Sayings” (IV, Ch III, § 81, A Number of Bhikkhus, translated by Ven. Bodhi) that a number of bhikkhus told the Buddha that sectarians asked them what the purpose of the holy life lived under the ascetic Gotama was. They asked whether they had answered rightly in saying that this was for the full understanding of suffering, dukkha. The Buddha said that this was right, but if they would ask what that suffering was they should answer thus: “The eye, friends, is suffering... Forms [N: rúpas, visible objects] are suffering... Whatever feeling arises with eye-contact as condition... that too is suffering... the mind is suffering... Whatever feeling arises with mind-contact as condition...that too is suffering: it is for the full understanding of this that the holy life is lived under the Blessed One. This, friends, is that suffering for the full understanding of which the holy is lived under the Blessed One.” The Buddha taught the development of right understanding of all dhammas as they appear through the six doors. At the end of our pilgrimage we spend a few days in Kashmir on houseboats. I was clinging to Dhamma discussions and I asked Acharn Sujin whether we could have a discussion the next day. She answered that we do not know what the next moment will bring and that also hearing Dhamma is anattå. The truth has to be applied in daily life. Whatever we hear is conditioned, hearing is the result of kamma. Hearing Dhamma is the result of kusala kamma; hearing is vipåkacitta which is conditioned and which nobody can cause to arise. It is of no use to wish for the arising of certain vipåkas or to have any expectations. Acharn Sujin said that whenever there is more understanding it indicates that there has been right consideration of realities. When we consider and investigate different dhammas, this is accompanied by a level of sati, sati stemming from listening to the Dhamma. In this way direct awareness of realities will arise naturally, without one trying to be aware. If one tries to make awareness arise it is counteractive; clinging to self obstructs the development of paññå. She also said that nobody can tell whether there will be sati now. Sati can arise before we are thinking about it. We should know the difference between forgetfulness of dhammas and mindfulness of one dhamma at a time as it appears through one doorway. Otherwise we keep on talking about sati but we are ignorant of its characteristic. ****** Nina. #82002 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jan 30, 2008 3:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Outline of Purification of View V.4 sarahprocter... Hi Larry, --- LBIDD@... wrote: Please set a good example! It's only one chapter, for > heaven's sake. .... S: OK, I'll do my best in my own very quirky, dysfunctional and controversial way:). I hope you, Ken H, Connie and others will assist. Metta, Sarah ======= #82003 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Wed Jan 30, 2008 4:55 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (73) nichiconn Dear Friends, Part 28 16. Mahaanipaato 1. Sumedhaatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa 479. "Pattaa te nibbaana.m, ye yuttaa dasabalassa paavacane; appossukkaa gha.tenti, jaatimara.nappahaanaaya. 477. "Those who are intent upon the teaching of the Ten-Powered One have attained quenching. Having little greed, they strive for the elimination of birth and death. Pattaa te nibbaananti te nibbaana.m pattaayeva naama. Atha vaa teyeva nibbaana.m pattaa. Ye yuttaa dasabalassa paavacaneti sammaasambuddhassa saasane ye yuttaa payuttaa. 477. They have attained quenching means: they have truly (yeva naama) attained quenching. Or [it means], only (yeva) they have attained quenching. Those who are intent (yutaa) upon the teaching (paavacane) of the Ten-Powered One means: those who are intent on, who have aplied themselves to (payuttaa), the teaching (saane) of the Fully and Perfectly Awakened One. 480. "Ajjeva taatabhinikkhamissa.m, bhogehi ki.m asaarehi; nibbinnaa me kaamaa, vantasamaa taalavatthukataa. 478. "This very day, father, I shall renounce [the world]. What [have I to do] with unsubstantial enjoyments? I am disgusted with sensual pleasures. They are like vomit, made like the base of a palm tree." Nibbinnaati virattaa. Meti mayaa. Vantasamaati suvaanavamathusadisaa. Taalavatthukataati taalassa pati.t.thaanasadisaa kataa. 478. I am disgusted with means: I am detached from. I (me) means: I (mayaa). Like vomit means: like dog's vomit. Made like the base of a palm tree (taala-vatthu-kataa) means: made (kataa) like the trunk (pati-.t.thaana-sadisaa)* of a palm tree (taalassa). *For a detailed discussion ... see EV II, pp.169f. ..."made groundles like a palmtree"). 482. "Atha asitanicitamuduke, kese khaggena chindiya sumedhaa; paasaada.m pidahitvaa, pa.thamajjhaana.m samaapajji. 480. Then Sumedhaa cut off her black, thick, soft hair with a knife, closed the palace [door], and entered the first absorption state. Athaati pacchaa, maataapituuna.m attano ajjhaasaya.m pavedetvaa anikarattassa ca aagatabhaava.m sutvaa. Asitanicitamuduketi indaniilabhamarasamaanava.n.nataaya asite, ghanabhaavena nicite, simbalituulasamasamphassataaya muduke. Kese khaggena chindiyaati attano kese sunisitena asinaa chinditvaa. Paasaada.m pidahitvaati attano vasanapaasaade sirigabbha.m pidhaaya, tassa dvaara.m thaketvaati attho. Pa.thamajjhaana.m samaapajjiiti khaggena chinne attano kese purato thapetvaa tattha pa.tikkuulamanasikaara.m pavattentii yathaa-upa.t.thite nimitte uppanna.m pa.thama.m jhaana.m vasiibhaava.m aapaadetvaa samaapajji. Saa ca sumedhaa tahi.m paasaade samaapannaa jhaananti adhippaayo. 480. Then means: afterwards, having made known her intention to her mother and father and having heard of the arrival of Anikaratta. Black, thick, soft (asita-nicita-muduke) means: being black (asite) because of being the colour of bees or sapphires, thick (nicite) because of its thick nature (ghanta-bhaavena), soft (muduke) because its touch is like the cotton of a silk-cotton tree. She cut off (chindiya) her hair with a knife (khaggena) means: shut cut off (chinditvaa) her own hair with a very sharp knife (asinaa). [She] closed (pidhitvaa) the palace [door] (paasaada.m) means: she closed (pidhaaya) the bedroom [door] in the palace where she lived (vasana-paasaade). She closed (thaketvaa) the door. That is the meaning. [She] entered the first absorption state (pa.thama-jhaana.m) means: she placed her own hair that she had cut off with the knife in front of her, and practising paying careful attention to the repulsive in connection with it, the sign arose as she practised, causing her to gain mastery, and she entered the first absorption state (pa.thana.m jhaana.m). 483. "Saa ca tahi.m samaapannaa, aniikaratto ca aagato nagara.m; paasaade ca sumedhaa, aniccasa~n~na.m subhaaveti. 481. Just as she entered it, Anikaratta arrived at the city. In that very place, Sumedhaa thoroughly developed the perception of impermanence. Aniccasa~n~na.m subhaavetiiti jhaanato vu.t.thahitvaa jhaana.m paadaka.m katvaa vipassana.m pa.t.thapetvaa "ya.mki~nci ruupan"ti-aadinaa (a. ni. 4.181; ma. ni. 1.244; pa.ti. ma. 1.48) aniccaanupassana.m su.t.thu bhaaveti, aniccasa~n~naagaha.neneva cettha dukkhasa~n~naadiinampi gaha.na.m katanti veditabba.m. 481. Throughly developed (subhaaveti) the perception of impermanence means: she rose from the absorption state, and making the absorption state her basis, she established insight. And she thoroughly developed (su.t.thu bhaaveti) the contemplation of impermanence through such phrases as "Any kind of material form whatever, etc."* And in this way, through the acquisition of the perception of impermanence, then the perception of impermanence, then the perception of pain, etc is also acquired. This is how it is to be understood. *M I 138 (MLDB 232f); A II 17 (GS II 178). .. to be continued, connie #82004 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Jan 30, 2008 5:07 am Subject: Re: Bare observation? Not doing anything? No control? scottduncan2 Dear Alex, Thanks for the Siitibhaava sutta.m: "A monk endowed with six qualities is incapable of realizing the unexcelled cooled state. [Chahi bhikkhave dhammehi samannaagato bhikkhuu abhabbo anuttara.m siitibhaava.m sacchikaatu.m.] Which six? [Katame chahi:] There is the case where a monk doesn't rein in his mind when it should be reined in. [Idha bhikkhave bhikkhuu yasmi.m samaye citta.m niggahetabba.m, tasmi.m samaye citta.m na nigga.nhaati.] He doesn't exert his mind when it should be exerted. [Yasmi.m samaye citta.m paggahetabba.m, tasmi.m samaye citta.m na pagga.nhaati,] He doesn't gladden his mind when it should be gladdened. [yasmi.m samaye citta.m sampaha.msitabba.m, tasmi.m samaye citta.m na sampaha.msati,] He doesn't watch over his mind when it should be watched over. [yasmi.m samaye citta.m ajjhupekkhitabba.m, tasmi.m samaye citta.m na ajjhupekkhati.] He is intent on what is lowly. And he delights in self-identity. [Hiinaadhimuttiko ca hoti sakkaayaadhirato ca.] "A monk endowed with six qualities is capable of realizing the unexcelled cooled state. [Chahi bhikkhave dhammehi samannaagato bhikkhuu bhabbo anuttara.m siitibhaava.m sacchikaatu.m.] Which six? [Katamehi chahi:] There is the case where a monk reins in his mind when it should be reined in. [Idha bhikkhave bhikkhuu yasmi.m samaye citta.m niggahetabba.m, tasmi.m samaye citta.m na nigga.nhaati.] He exerts his mind when it should be exerted. [Yasmi.m samaye citta.m paggahetabba.m, tasmi.m samaye citta.m na pagga.nhaati,] He gladdens his mind when it should be gladdened. [yasmi.m samaye citta.m sampaha.msitabba.m, tasmi.m samaye citta.m na sampaha.msati,] He watches over his mind when it should be watched over. [yasmi.m samaye citta.m ajjhupekkhitabba.m, tasmi.m samaye citta.m na ajjhupekkhati.] He is intent on what is exquisite. And he delights in Unbinding. [Pa.niitaadhimuttiko ca hoti nibbaanaadhirato ca.] A monk endowed with these six qualities is capable of realizing the unexcelled cooled state." [Imehi kho bhikkhave chahi dhammehi samannaagato bhikkhu bhabbo anuttara.m siitibhaava.m sacchikaatunti.] Scott: First of all, please note that the term 'samaye citta.m' is used in each case. The PTS PED: "Samaya [...See also samiti] congregation; time, condition, etc. -- At DhsA 57 sq. we find a detailed expln of the word samaya (s -- sadda), with meanings given as follows: (1) samavaaya ("harmony in antecedents" trsln), (2) kha.na (opportunity), (3) kaala (season), (4) samuuha (crowd, assembly), (5) hetu (condition), (6) di.t.thi (opinion). (7) pa.tilaabha (acquisition), (8) pahaana (elimination), (9) pa.tivedha (penetration)." Scott: This, I think, clarifies that in each case what is being referred to is, again, the moment of consciousness which is multiply constituted or assembled, and arises when there is opportunity - when conditions are conducive to its arising. I'd still like to clarify the exact sense of 'citta' in this case. What do you suppose it means, Alex, in the phrase translated by Thanissaro as "And he delights in self-identity" (sakkaayaadhirato)? Do you suppose this could refer to an emphatic insistence that there is a dynamic personality structure that is responsible for doing things? PTS PED: "sakkaaya" "...the body in being, the existing body or group...in P. psychology almost equal to individuality; identified with the five khandhas..." "adhirato" "Adhi 1. primary meaning (in verbs & verb derivations): either direction in which or place where, depending on the meaning of the verb determinate, either lit. or fig...2. secondary meaning (as emphatic modification)..." "Rata [pp. of ramati] delighting in (loc. or -- Ëš), intent on, devoted..." Scott: I'd like to have some input from the real Paa.li scholars regarding the above compound, because I'm not sure of its meaning in this context and I'd like to be corrected in the above guesses I'm making. Sincerely, Scott. #82005 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Wed Jan 30, 2008 5:13 am Subject: Vism.XVII,235 Vism.XVII,236 nichiconn Path of Purity, pp.681-2 For when the craving for matter proceeds to enjoy with the taste of sense-desire a material object that has come into the avenue of the eye, it becomes known as sensuous craving. When it proceeds together with the heresy of Eternalism, according to which that very object is permanent, eternal, [568] then it is known as craving for existence: for passion accompanied by the heresy of Eternalism is called the craving for existence. When it proceeds together with the heresy of annihilation, according to which that very object is cut off, destroyed, then it is known as craving for non-existence; for passion accompanied by the heresy of annihilation is called the craving for non-existence. And the same with cravings for sound and so on. These make eighteen cravings from among the internal material qualities and eighteen from among the external, giving thirty-six. And these as past, future and present give one hundred and eigtht. Again they are, briefly, six by way of the material object and so on, and three by way of sensuous craving and so on. Because these beings give much honour to painters, musicians, perfumers, cooks, weavers and physicians, givers of life's elixer {Rasaayatana is taken to mean the nutritive essence (ojaa) for the strengthening of life's controlling faculty.}, who grant them the material objects and so on, which they taste with jealous enjoyment, just as they give much honour to a nurse out of their feelings for, and jealous pride in their son, therefore all these cravings should be understood as being conditioned by feeling. #82006 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 30, 2008 6:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bare observation? Not doing anything? No control? nilovg Dear Scott: Op 30-jan-2008, om 14:07 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: > He is intent on what is lowly. And he delights in self-identity. > [Hiinaadhimuttiko ca hoti sakkaayaadhirato ca.] ------- N: He delights in his own body. I would think: he is just attached to his body, or, his personality. This in contrast to: nibbaanaadhirato we find further on. Nina. #82007 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Wed Jan 30, 2008 7:10 am Subject: Sakkaayaabhirato Re: Bare observation? Not doing anything? No control? abhidhammika Dear Scott D, Nina and Alex How are you? This is a very brief reply to your question. Siitibhaava Suttam is Section 55, Chakkanipaata Pali, Anguttaranikaayo. Sakkaayaabhirato is the correct word, not sakkaayaadhirato. According to the commentary on Section 14, Chakkanipaata Pali, sakkaaya is defined as round of rebirths in three existential domains (kaama, ruupa and aruupa),"sakkaayanti tebhuumakava.t.tam". Thus, sakkaayaabhirato means simply being happy with perpetual rebirths in samsaara. The compound 'Sakkaayaabhirato' occurs in Sections 14 and 15 as well. So, please go to those Setions in your Pali text edition to find out if Sakkaayaabhirato occurs. With regards, Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org #82008 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 30, 2008 7:35 am Subject: Re: A Possible Resolution (Re: [dsg] Are thoughts vipaka?) nilovg Hi Howard (and Larry), Op 29-jan-2008, om 17:26 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > We're not quite connecting. ------ N: How are we doing now? I thought not too bad ;-)) Larry gave some more additions to kamma and vipaaka. And mentioned decisive support-condition. The pleasant bodily ease does not have to have its condiiton in a previous life. We do not know. > > ---------- > N: .... The cittas motivating > wrong speech are not result, they are active, accompanied by akusala > roots, they arise during the moments of javana and are thus never > vipaka except in the case of lokuttara cittas. > But perhaps you use resultant in a conventional way? > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Howard > No. Right before the wrong speech, and interspersed in the midst of > the > wrong speech are cittas that involve unwholesome volition. They are > kamma. > Informally, the speech activity that expresses this unwholesome > volition can be > identified as "the kamma" also, because the wrong speech is > intentional action. > In any case, the cittas underlying the speech that express the > akusala cetana > *have that cetana as condition*. While they are not the vipaka of that > cetana, they *do* have that cetana as condition - they *are* a kind > of resultant, > a sort of resultant other than vipaka. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > N: Here we have to listen to Larry, see above. It would be better > to reserve the term resultant for vipaaka only. Cetanaa is not the > only condition, the hetus are very important: moha and lobha or > dosa, depending. They are conascent with the akusala citta and > condition it by way of root-condition. There are the latent > tendencies that are accumulated and condition the akusala citta, by > way of natural decisive support-condition. > --------- > > H: The volition and the immediately resulting thought and speech > > activity, > > together, are the kamma, and the secondary unhappy states are the > > vipaka. > ------ > N: The secondary unhappy states. You mean vipaakacittas. Can we not > just say: they may produce vipaaka later on, and then we have said > enough. > ----------- Nina. #82009 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 30, 2008 7:53 am Subject: Thinking. nilovg Hi Howard, D.C. also had some useful remarks about thinking, as different from vipaakacittas. When we are more precise thinking are the cetasikas of vitakka and vicaara. You have written before about these, and considered them, I know. Vitakka 'touches 'the object and vicaara is continued occupation with the object. You wrote about them in connection with the jhaanafactors. You very well understand their difference, I noticed. These also accompany cittas arising in a sense-door process and have therefore ruupa as object. They accompany all cittas of the sense plane, except the sense-cognitions. Thus also receiving- consciousness, etc. We can also use the term thinking in a more general way: for cittas arising in a mind-door process, and these are accompanied by vitakka and vicaara. After the mind-door adverting consciousness the javana cittas arise which can think of many objects, real or not real. When the objective is not daana, siila or bhaavanaa, they are akusala cittas. Thus, when I think: now I go to the kitchen and I have to do some cooking, the cittas are already akusala cittas, rooted in lobha mostly. But we do not notice this. We are ignorant most of the time. 'Today I have to go shopping', akusala citta already. You will understand that these are not vipaakacittas. Now we understand better why the Buddha reminded the monks (and us) to be mindful when walking, standing... eating.. speaking etc. If not, we accumulate ever more akusala, no end. Nina. #82010 From: Dieter Möller Date: Wed Jan 30, 2008 9:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] My recent meditation experiences. Thinking regarding slowing down o... moellerdieter Dear Nina, you wrote: 'thank you for the quotes. I do not disagree with what you write. D: may I assume that you agree to '..the Metta Sutta which may be a very suitable approach by its recollection at the beginning of a session..'? Nina: I only think that for the development of metta bhaavanaa it is necessary to know when the citta is kusala and when it is akusala. ' D: I did not mean full development of metta bhavana but useful support by recollecting the Metta Sutta for reaching the first meditative state of access concentration. As I understand you , the knowledge 'when the citta is kusala and when it is akusala. ' is a prerequisite for bhavana . It has been said, that without (training in ) moral/sila, meditation/samadhi is without base..which I think is pointing to the same. Recalling what we understand by Sila (Nyanatiloka): sÄ«la: 'morality', 'virtue', is a mode of mind and volition (cetanÄ?, q.v.) manifested in speech or bodily action (s. kamma). It is the foundation of the whole Buddhist practice, and therewith the first of the 3 kinds of training (sikkhÄ?, q.v.) that form the 3-fold division of the 8-fold Path (s. magga), i.e. morality, concentration and wisdom. Buddhist morality is not, as it may appear from the negative formulations in the Sutta-texts, something negative. And it does not consist in the mere not committing of evil actions, but is in each instance the clearly conscious and intentional restraint from the bad actions in question and corresponds to the simultaneously arising volition. Morality of the 8-fold Path, namely, right speech, right action and right livelihood, is called 'genuine or natural morality' pakatisÄ«la), as distinguished from the external rules for monks or laymen, the so-called 'prescribed morality' (paṇṇatti-sÄ«la, q.v.), which, as such, is kammically neutral. "What now is kammically wholesome morality (kusala-sÄ«la)? It is the wholesome bodily action (kÄ?ya-kamma, s. kamma), wholesome verbal action (vacÄ«-kamma, s. kamma), and also the purity with regard to livelihood which I call morality" (M. 78). Cf. magga, 3-5. unquote I like to emphasize '...in each instance the clearly conscious and intentional restraint from the bad actions in question and corresponds to the simultaneously arising volition' .In practise this is conform with right effort .. Does above meet your thinking? ( not so sure about when I read from another message that the thought' I need to go shopping' is akusala citta.. ' why? ) Nina: One has to know the characteristic of metta in daily life, when one is with other people if one wants to develop it as a subject of samatha. D: therefore recollecting the Metta sutta.. Nina : I mention again what was mentioned here before. Ivan heard of a monk who was developing metta as subject of samatha, but when he was disturbed by others, he became angry. So he did not know the characteristic of mettacitta. D: he may have been in his first steps for development loving kindness ..the difference between hearing and penetrating , isn't it? ) with Metta Dieter #82011 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 30, 2008 9:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sakkaayaabhirato Re: Bare observation? Not doing anything? No control? nilovg Dear Suan, thank you, you gave a very useful explanation. Nina. Op 30-jan-2008, om 16:10 heeft abhidhammika het volgende geschreven: > According to the commentary on Section 14, Chakkanipaata Pali, > sakkaaya is defined as round of rebirths in three existential > domains (kaama, ruupa and aruupa),"sakkaayanti tebhuumakava.t.tam". #82012 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jan 30, 2008 5:01 am Subject: Re: A Possible Resolution (Re: [dsg] Are thoughts vipaka?) upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 1/30/2008 10:35:51 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard (and Larry), Op 29-jan-2008, om 17:26 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > We're not quite connecting. ------ N: How are we doing now? I thought not too bad ;-)) -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Doing better! ======================== With metta, Howard #82013 From: Dieter Möller Date: Wed Jan 30, 2008 10:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Stages of VipassanÃ¥paññå [Was James' Article on Personalism] moellerdieter Hi Tep , Howard and others... you wrote: Yes, Dieter, the Buddha said that his Teachings were all about dukkha and its cessation. SN 22.86: "Both formerly & now, it is only dukkha that I describe, and the cessation of dukkha." T: And what is dukkha? SN 56.11: "Birth is dukkha, aging is dukkha, death is dukkha; sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, & despair are dukkha; association with the unbeloved is dukkha; separation from the loved is dukkha; not getting what is wanted is dukkha. In short, the five clinging-aggregates are dukkha." T: As you said, Dieter, dukkha is defined for individuals who suffer aging, death, pain, grief, association with unpleasant people and things, lost of loved ones, and not getting what is wanted. However, along with the "individual reality" there is a danger that results from the identity view that clings to the khandhas as "mine, me, my self". Why? Because that clinging (upadana) leads all non-ariyans to dukkha (and rebirths) as explained by SN 56.11. Therefore, the non-ariyans must develop the ariyan's right view, i.e. seeing and knowing the nama & rupa the way they really are. this right view abandons the miccha-ditthi about individual/person like Howard stated 'The person, in my view, is neither an individual reality nor a mere collection of random phenomena, but an integrated (dynamic) assemblage of interrelated phenomena that act in concert." D: as you quoted 'In short, the five clinging-aggregates are dukkha." This clinging (mine, me in respect to the khandas) is there ..since long, long time ..and the full detachment only reached when the 8fold Noble Path is realized , it is a process of insight(s), one must go through not only by agreeing to that no self can be found ,emptiness of substance. The individual reality has been - as far as I understand- never been dismissed by the Buddha.. but the misery of the person explained by the conditioning of the D.O. , leading to continous clinging and remaining caught in samsara . In my opinion Howard' s statement isn't yet clear to that point.. T: When one has penetrated the ariya sacca s/he will no longer have identity views (20 sakkayaditthi) as if the whole world is empty of individuals and beings. D: the Buddha recognized the world full of suffering beings..therefore the Dhamma.. T:Indeed, Khun Sujin says it all very clearly in 'Survey of Paramattha Dhammas', Chapter 30, The Stages of VipassanÃ¥ : D: the text is garbled (the Pali fonds missing) ..perhaps a sign that we should first see that we get a common understanding of above before we listen to what Khun Sujin has to say.. with Metta Dieter #82014 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jan 30, 2008 5:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thinking. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 1/30/2008 10:53:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, D.C. also had some useful remarks about thinking, as different from vipaakacittas. When we are more precise thinking are the cetasikas of vitakka and vicaara. You have written before about these, and considered them, I know. Vitakka 'touches 'the object and vicaara is continued occupation with the object. You wrote about them in connection with the jhaanafactors. You very well understand their difference, I noticed. These also accompany cittas arising in a sense-door process and have therefore ruupa as object. They accompany all cittas of the sense plane, except the sense-cognitions. Thus also receiving- consciousness, etc. We can also use the term thinking in a more general way: for cittas arising in a mind-door process, and these are accompanied by vitakka and vicaara. After the mind-door adverting consciousness the javana cittas arise which can think of many objects, real or not real. When the objective is not daana, siila or bhaavanaa, they are akusala cittas. Thus, when I think: now I go to the kitchen and I have to do some cooking, the cittas are already akusala cittas, rooted in lobha mostly. But we do not notice this. We are ignorant most of the time. 'Today I have to go shopping', akusala citta already. You will understand that these are not vipaakacittas. -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I understand them as akusala, kammic mind states, because they involve tanha-based cetana. But there are other states during thinking that are not such. Those other states may or may not be kamma vipaka. If they are conditioned by kammic states, i.e., by states of kusala or akusala willing, then they *are* the fruition of kamma, but if they are conditioned only by non-kammic states (kiriya cittas and vipaka cittas), then they are not. That's how it seems to me. --------------------------------------------------------- Now we understand better why the Buddha reminded the monks (and us) to be mindful when walking, standing... eating.. speaking etc. If not, we accumulate ever more akusala, no end. Nina. ============================ With metta, Howard #82015 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jan 30, 2008 5:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Stages of VipassanÃ¥paññå [Was James' Article on Personalism] upasaka_howard Hi, Dieter (and Tep) - In a message dated 1/30/2008 1:13:13 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, moellerdieter@... writes: The individual reality has been - as far as I understand- never been dismissed by the Buddha.. but the misery of the person explained by the conditioning of the D.O. , leading to continous clinging and remaining caught in samsara . In my opinion Howard' s statement isn't yet clear to that point.. ================================= Dieter, I'm not following you with this. Please say exactly what the issue is and what is the sort of opinion or explanation that you are seeking from me. If I understand exactly what you want, then I'll try to be as clear as possible in my reply. With metta, Howard #82016 From: Dieter Möller Date: Wed Jan 30, 2008 10:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] James' Referenced Article on Personalism moellerdieter Hi Howard, you wrote: 'There IS a person. However, that person is not an individual but an aggregation of phenomena, and these phenomena, including acts of volition, do serve as conditions that influence further developments. That is what I mean when I speak of "control", and such control is quite real. There simply is no controller - no individual who is agent, actor, and controller. ------------------------------------------- D: I do not get your point of ' not an individual' ..there is an individual being in which a process of conditioning going on, isn't it? No individual acting as agent ..but how about an "agent" concerning sankhara khanda? please see as well my message to Tep.. with Metta Dieter #82017 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jan 30, 2008 5:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] James' Referenced Article on Personalism upasaka_howard Hi, Dieter - In a message dated 1/30/2008 1:41:21 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, moellerdieter@... writes: Hi Howard, you wrote: 'There IS a person. However, that person is not an individual but an aggregation of phenomena, and these phenomena, including acts of volition, do serve as conditions that influence further developments. That is what I mean when I speak of "control", and such control is quite real. There simply is no controller - no individual who is agent, actor, and controller. ------------------------------------------- D: I do not get your point of ' not an individual' ..there is an individual being in which a process of conditioning going on, isn't it? No individual acting as agent ..but how about an "agent" concerning sankhara khanda? please see as well my message to Tep.. with Metta Dieter ================================== I used the noun 'individual' in the sense of "indivisible entity". My point is that a person, though spoken of as a unit and erroneously thought of as such, is actually an aggregation of many phenomena. When we speak of a person acting, it is actually the underlying mental activities and arising & ceasing rupas that are acting in concert. A person is improperly called an "in-dividual" (hyphenation intentional), because a person is an integrated collection of phenomena, and not a single phenomenon of its own. With metta, Howard #82018 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 30, 2008 11:19 am Subject: Re: A Possible Resolution (Re: [dsg] Are thoughts vipaka?) nilovg Hi Howard, LOL. Nina. Op 30-jan-2008, om 19:01 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > > We're not quite connecting. > ------ > N: How are we doing now? I thought not too bad ;-)) > -------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Doing better! #82019 From: "Alex" Date: Wed Jan 30, 2008 11:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] My recent meditation experiences. Thinking regarding slowing down o... truth_aerator Dear Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Dieter, > thank you for the quotes. I do not disagree with what you write. I > only think that for the development of metta bhaavanaa it is > necessary to know when the citta is kusala and when it is akusala. >>>> In a way you are true. Suttas talk of 3 levels of unwholesomeness/defilements (as it relates to Jhana cultivation). 1) Strong defilements: Unwholesome deeds in body/speech/mind (10 wrong courses of action) 2) Medium: 5 Hindrances 3) Weak: Thoughts about family, clan, etc. We can discuss them, and you can to explain what you've said above. >>> > One has to know the characteristic of metta in daily life, when one > is with other people if one wants to develop it as a subject of samatha. >>> True. I do recollect the feeling of metta before every session (in which I now do metta). > I mention again what was mentioned here before. Ivan heard of a monk > who was developing metta as subject of samatha, but when he was > disturbed by others, he became angry. So he did not know the > characteristic of mettacitta. >>>> He did NOT develop Metta well enough, period. Metta takes a meditator to the 4th Jhana (if he was proficient in it, he wouldn't be angered easily). Lots of Metta, Alex #82020 From: "shennieca" Date: Wed Jan 30, 2008 11:49 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Are thoughts vipaka? shennieca Hi DC, all, DC: If we have no previous kamma, we wouldn't be born. Kammakkhaya is another way of talking about nibbaana. So, in a manner of speaking, all we do here--think, sing, dance-- is kamma vipaaka. Elaine: I agree. Whatever we do - think, sing, dance, is kamma vipaka. Thinking creates new kamma (i.e. good, bad, neutral kamma). How about subconscious thinking? I think they create kamma too. Imo, thinking is dependent on past kamma but it is impossible to know how much 'past kamma' influences our thinking. Puthujjanas will never know the answer to this. ;-)) Our conscious and subconscious thinking is also influenced by many factors, i.e. nature (genetics), nurture (up-bringing), culture, social background, knowledge, friends, etc. These factors will affect how we think. Most Buddhists generalize these factors and call them kamma. Actually not everything is due to kamma. ---------- DC: However, when we think, we do it by ourselves creating further kamma, especially, when it leads to action, by word, body or mind. Elaine: When you say 'we do thinking by ourselves', I know you are saying we are responsible for our thinking. The reason we can think properly is because we know what morality is, what virtue is. We have the opportunity to hear the Dhamma and we have 'somewhat' of a right view. Take for example, ter.rori.sts, who think differently from us. They think that there is no harm in killing their 'enemies' because their thinking is all messed up. Their minds have been indoctrinated with hatred and delusions. I agree, they 'did the thinking by themselves' but unfortunately it is the wrong type of thinking and it is not their fault for thinking that way because the causes & conditions to think with right view are not present. They believed in wrong view and associated with unwise friends and these affected their thinking and POV. Do they have the ability to think correctly? Maybe at the back of their minds, they know they are doing wrong. Or maybe not, a few of them may think that they did the right thing. It is really hard to say, whether it is truly their 'own' choosing or it is the fault of their circumstances (kamma & vipaka). So, imo, our thinking is deeply influenced by factors that we are aware of, and unaware of. With mettaa & respect, Elaine #82021 From: "shennieca" Date: Wed Jan 30, 2008 12:22 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] my last posting on this website shennieca Hi Sarah, It is one thing when James talks about his own family, but it is a totally different thing when you talk about his family that way. I think your last post to James is unfair... :-/ The 4th precept includes no gossiping and no wrong-speech. I agree with you that we should stick to Dhamma discussions. I'd like to apologize in advance if this post is offensive. I don't have any intentions to hurt your feelings but I can guess your post have hurt James's feelings... :-(( With mettaa, Elaine #82022 From: "Sumane Rathnasuriya" Date: Wed Jan 30, 2008 1:21 pm Subject: Re: my last posting on this website sumane758 Hi Sarah, Sir James, Ven Bhante (I am sure your ven'ble self is there), For those who wouldn't know or remember, I am an old member, benefiting from DSG I think every one of you is missing a point here but circling around it throughout! (means 'everyone knows what it is but when it comes to self - well, it's "It's not of me" attitude, very common even outside DSG') Otherwise; - how can Sarah say 'dysfunctional' even if James had said it of himself previously? It could be the very point that made him seek a kind of strength in exploring the Dhamma (may be, may not be or may be anyone here wouldn't draw it out from deep within; not even James). Whatever, when I say "I am a jerk" (sorry, to clarify better) it may mean anything anywhere else but within DSG it's my *confession*, as I want to be rid of it and (seek to) feel the following moment without it lingering in me any further. (So on & so many for that.) BUT, in such circumstance, even if I have no bother you using/recalling it to clarify a point, it wouldn't be the most appropriate to reiterate. So dear Sarah, you should have gone for a better alternative. Otherwise; - how can James (Sir was my respect, whether you take it or leave it) take the responsibility (you are responsible in saying "*I tell people things I think they need to hear, even if it pisses them off*." aren't you?) chasing away monks who want to learn from laymen in DSG? May be we learn from DSG, may be not. Your point that Ven. Bhante is trying to learn here what he should find from within, is not valid. We all who should find it from within are here to (at least seeking to) learn from the discussions, (though we here are supposed to be studying the Dhamma, maximum possible of the vast of it than the wee little 'particles' we are concerned about from time to time (like this). So with what you have said to Ven Bhante, you imply that we all should leave? (we too are here though we should find it from within). Why should it apply different to a monk then, who is yet to attain & seeks it here "by pressing a key after another on his pc?" Why should it differ (that you are very principled) from the Starkids to whom you responded differently (magnificently) when they sought to learn the Dhamma here? With due respects to all, *me*, considering the vastness of the Dhamma, feel that the knowledge level of the Starkids is not very much distant from that of us here though within here anyone feels the distance from the kids to us who have been thru some or all of the scriptures, meditation etc. still *circling around *almost the same point, *tolerance *that includes of KS, Nina & the like who have dedicated themselves, some from long before, to the same mission DSG is dedicated to at length. They aren't *Teachers. *They bring to us what's there in the Dhamma, differently & from different pedestals of course, the best support we have when any elevated one is not around. (I do not know but presume a lot, why the Starkids posts were removed from DSG. However, I feel that had they continued, deep underneath, they had the *cooling effect* that was instrumental in developing the reader towards tolerance) - with everything said here-above, Bhante, I do not think I should elaborate on what I think you have missed. It is necessary however, to mention that as James has said, since still every moment in the state of our minds (as much as others'. about us & world) is *different* from another, it is best that we don't read what we find irrelevant to the object 'why we are here', BUT continue seeking & contributing towards *learning* what we can, from the Dhamma. Metta, Sumane #82023 From: TGrand458@... Date: Wed Jan 30, 2008 9:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] the present moment TGrand458@... Hi Nina Nina wrote the following... N: I agree. Take the cemetery contemplations, these help us to be aware of this body now that is like a skeleton. There are many reminders in conventional language about conventional things understandable by all sorts of people, but why? To bring us back to this very moment when nama and rupa appear through one of the six doorways. Six worlds. The Buddha taught us to understand anatta, and not by way of thinking, but by understanding seeing as anatta, thinking as anatta, clinging as anatta. Not seeing, thinking or clinging that has gone, but which arise now. Otherwise his teaching would be useless. Nina. ....................................................................... TG's Response... You say you agree, but your comments regarding decomposition and the cemetery contemplations seem to me to miss the point. You agree, but then comment in a way that disagrees? You want to be accommodating, I'll give you that. ;-) But you can't have your cake and eat it too! The cemetery contemplations are not about being aware of "our own decomposition now" except conceptually, in our imaginations. They are about "projecting" and using the *imagination* to reason that "our bodies are decomposing now and will become like that in the future." They say that - how do you miss that? I understand that you automatically want to skew everything to "the now," but not all things are directly observable now for us. Some, like bodily change are so slow that we only become aware of them in retrospect or by inference (which is what is most relevant with regard to the cemetery contemplations). The truth is, some of the teachings are regarding "the now," and some are not. And insight, arguably the most important factor in the Buddha's teaching, is cultivated, according to the teachings, both by discursive thinking and by relying on mindfulness in the moment as important skills. The Suttas do NOT support your one-sided approach and they do not say the things you claim they do, as I see it. You gloss over the cemetery contemplations, for example, and make claims for them that are quite frankly, the opposite of what they are aiming at. Then, it seems to me that you shift into "now mode" without a reasoned evaluation of the cemetery contemplations. You are, of course, entitled to your views, but they are subjective VIEWS to the extreme IMO. I see the Buddha as fully pragmatic, and your interpretation of Dhamma as very theoretically based. I'm glad you found an approach that you are happy with. But I also hope that you can objectively support that approach by an objective interpretation of what the Suttas actually say, and not just misreading completely unrelated passages as supporting your "now" vision. Some passages do offer support for direct mindfulness, a very important factor; while other passages offer support for inferential and contemplative thinking, also a very important factor. Buddha's teachings are more comprehensive than you are making them out to be. TG #82025 From: "reverendaggacitto" Date: Wed Jan 30, 2008 3:22 pm Subject: could sombody help me with a question? reverendagga... Hi everybody! i have a question..... is there somewhere in the Pali Canon ( M.N.perhaps?)where the Ven.Gotama declares... "i teach neither self nor no self"? if so where is it? Thank's! May the Buddha's Deva and Angels bless all of you! bhikkhu/reverend aggacitto #82026 From: TGrand458@... Date: Wed Jan 30, 2008 10:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] could sombody help me with a question? TGrand458@... In a message dated 1/30/2008 4:23:37 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, reverendaggacitto@... writes: Hi everybody! i have a question....i is there somewhere in the Pali Canon ( M.N.perhaps?is there s Ven.Gotama declares... "i teach neither self nor no self"? if so where is it? Thank's! May the Buddha's Deva and Angels bless all of you! bhikkhu/reverend aggacitto .................................................... Hi Bhikkhu / Reverend Aggacitto There is no such passage. The closest thing is a Sutta in MN where the Buddha tells Ananda that he didn't teach no-self to ONE PARTICULAR individual due to THAT individual's inability to understand it...and that teaching no-self TO HIM would have only confused him. In that same Sutta, the Buddha declares that he DOES teach no-self. TG #82027 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Jan 30, 2008 3:58 pm Subject: Re: Stages of VipassanÃ¥paññå [Was James' Article on Personalism] dhammanusara Hi Dieter (Howard and other friends), - This discussion subject is not easy to chew and it requires patience, so I appreciate your willingness to continue the conversation. > > D: as you quoted 'In short, the five clinging-aggregates are dukkha." > This clinging (mine, me in respect to the khandas) is there ..since long, long time ..and the full detachment only reached when the 8fold Noble Path is realized , it is a process of insight(s), one must go through not only by agreeing to that no self can be found ,emptiness of substance. > T: The various kinds of insight knowledge to "go through" (by direct knowing of the khandhas, nama & rupa) are described in the Visuddhimagga and clearly summarized/explained further by Khun Sujin. Yes, I agree with you that these insights must be developed (direct knowing of the FNT), not by agreeing (or only thinking) that "no self can be found, emptiness of substance". .............. >D: The individual reality has been - as far as I understand- never been dismissed by the Buddha.. but the misery of the person explained by the conditioning of the D.O. , leading to continous clinging and remaining caught in samsara . > T: He didn't have to. The Buddha knew the level of understanding (pa~n~na) of the monks. In some suttas all He talked about was kamma, akusala, kusala, siila, samadhi, and how a monk and lay-person should be trained to abandon lobha, dosa, moha. In other suttas all his talk was about the pure dhammas as if the world was empty of beings (See, for example, Suñnna Sutta: Empty, SN 35.85). I think it was the situation when the audience was all ariya-savaka (who had no self- views). When you give a lecture to atomic physicists, your whole talk is all about sub-particles and atomic theories, not Newtonian Physics. ............. >D:In my opinion Howard' s statement isn't yet clear to that point.. T: Concerning Howard's statements, I'd better leave the explanation task to Howard himself to do. My experience tells me that the probability of my misunderstanding him is higher than 0.50. But that has been totally my fault. ;-) ..................... > Tep: When one has penetrated the ariya sacca s/he will no longer have identity views (20 sakkayaditthi) as if the whole world is empty of individuals and beings. > > D: the Buddha recognized the world full of suffering beings..therefore the Dhamma.. > T: Your reply sounds like you do not yet understand "as if the whole world is empty of individuals and beings". ................... > Tep: Indeed, Khun Sujin says it all very clearly in 'Survey of Paramattha Dhammas', Chapter 30, The Stages of VipassanÃ¥ : > > D: the text is garbled (the Pali fonds missing) ..perhaps a sign that we should first see that we get a common understanding of above before we listen to what Khun Sujin has to say.. > T: It is critically important that we establish a "common understanding" about right view of the ariyans who are able to let go of 'attavaadupaadaana'. Period. It is fine with me if you want to discuss it without reading 'Survey of Paramattha Dhammas'. Another recommended reading is 'The Three Basic Facts of Existence III. Egolessness (Anatta) Collected essays'. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/various/wheel202.html#thera vada To make the garbled text readable please make sure that your Internet Explorer's encoding is set to unicode(UTF-8) as follows. View --> Encoding --> Unicode(UTF-8). Sincerely, Tep === #82028 From: "Alex" Date: Wed Jan 30, 2008 4:13 pm Subject: Re: could sombody help me with a question? truth_aerator Dear Bhante, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "reverendaggacitto" wrote: > > is there somewhere in the Pali Canon ( M.N.perhaps?)where the > Ven.Gotama declares... "i teach neither self nor no self"? > if so where is it? > > Thank's! > > May the Buddha's Deva and Angels bless all of you! > > bhikkhu/reverend aggacitto >>>> 1) He has said "I teach stress and its cessation" (I don't remember exactly where). 2nd) in MN2 it is said that for those who want to become Stream Enterers "Is there self for me" or "There is no self for me" or "by self/non-self" I percieve "self/nonself" etc are no-go. It is interesting that it seems that only Vachagotta (and few more at best) have asked the question: "Is there a self?" . I doubt that there is a single sutta where an Ariya asks "Does self exist?" or "Is there no-self?". Anyone aspiring for stream entry doesn't ask those unskillful questions. One investigates "Stress, its origin, its cessation and path leading to its cessation." --- The one passage where the Buddha is asked point-blank to take a position on the ontological question of whether or not there is a self, he refuses to answer. The passages which state most categorically that there is no self are qualified in such a way that they cover all of describable reality, but not all of reality which may be experienced. Views that there is no self are ranked with views that that there is a self as a "fetter of views" which a person aiming at release from suffering would do well to avoid. The person who has attained the goal of release views reality in such a way that all views — even such basic notions as self & no-self, true & false — can have no hold power over the mind. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/notself.html --- Lots of Metta, Alex #82029 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Jan 30, 2008 4:28 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Outline of Purification of View V.4 lbidd2 Hi Sarah and all, Sarah: "OK, I'll do my best in my own very quirky, dysfunctional and controversial way:). I hope you, Ken H, Connie and others will assist." Larry: Great! I'm sure you will enjoy it, as will we all. If anyone would like to 'sign-up' to present a chapter, let me know. This will be an excellent way to get an in-depth understanding, albeit conceptual, of the enlightenment process. We are talking about a minimum 6 emails over a two week period that present all the major points in one of the remaining chapters of the Visuddhimagga, ch. 20 - 23. Most of these chapters are quite a bit longer than "View" and "Doubt" (18, & 19), so if you only want to do part of a chapter, that would be okay. Larry #82030 From: "colette" Date: Wed Jan 30, 2008 7:39 am Subject: Warm oatmeal on this frigid morning! ksheri3 Good Morning James, I like that answer! It strung along rather fluidly and I very focused, this morning, on how Dependent Origination is such a "catch all" definition that is soooooo obviously part of everything. For instance I've gotta reply to a personal conversation I'm having with an older former officer of a certain society in San Francisco and I wanted, last night, to read his words to me before I began my typical, usual, meditation process. I find, here, that you reply to me actually comes extremely close to his reply to me CONCERNING COMPLETELY DIFFERENT CONCEPTS AND COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THINGS. I know there is no association between the two yet the two are extremely close. Sure, I know the old song, there's a difference between Relative and Ultimate BUT I cannot see that right now since I've kept, maintained, my form of meditational practices for almost 30 years now, April will be the anniversery, which means that this encounter is part of the same meditation and this post is almost the same as rationalizing to myself out loud. People view my rationalizing to myself as "talking to myself" or talking to no body, so there is precedence and you are not the first person this has happened to, you are just the first person I've verbaslized this to about the situation we both find ourselves in at this moment, second (see Citta rising and falling, or ceasing). > > James: It doesn't. That was my opinion. > colette: my mistake, I didn't read that in your post. I read that you were being shallow and skimming the surface, observing only the blatant, the obvious, and not taking the analysis further. It happens to me all the time in Western Mystery-type forums where I refuse to get caught in the quagmire or bog of Dogma that neophytes cannot live without and so continually repeat it over and over as if it meant something of substance. --------------------------------- > I mean a monk can be HIGHLY > > ISSOLATED AND HIGHLY LONEY, > colette: Alone in crowded rooms. Know that feeling very well. Noticed it in 1978 while recouperating from the trauma of my NDE. -------------------------------- > James: A monk in Thailand isn't going to be isolated- there are > thousands of fellow monks around. Thailand is crawling with monks and > many of them learn and speak English. As far as being lonely, that is > a state of mind. You can have lots of people around you and still > feel lonely, and you can be all alone and not feel lonely at all. > colette: EXACTLY. People have never been able to understand how I can survive being alone. Sure, I get lonely at times and this brings on a certain amount of despondence but that usually is such a fleeting sensation that I know how to immediately toss it in the garbage. I think that learning the subtleties of these esoteric philosophies are a major part of the study. The feeling of lonliness, for instance, is or may be a part of the sensation of "disconnectedness" or "isolation" (using that word gives us the ability to see that we, as individuals, can and do transpose our own "self" onto others as in being isolated, we seek to blame or place the cause of the isolation upon the actions and intentions of another person when it's all our own fault and we cannot blame another), not being a part of anything or anybody. I think there's lots of documentation on the studies of the "social behavior" of animals like "baboons" or "chimps" (those lucky enough to live with chimps, know of the mischeviousness that's brought out as CHAOS by invading the chimps habitat and interacting with chimps). ----------------------------- > My impression about Ven. P isn't that he feels lonely, it is that he > continues to look for the Dhamma outside of himself. He feels panic > thinking he might have "missed something" valuable outside of himself. > So he looks for the answers in others, when all of the answers he > seeks are within himself. You don't become a monk to find the answers > somewhere "out there", you become a monk to afford you the opportunity > to find the answers within. colette: I love that! the way you worded it and phrased it! I am gonna think about that for a little while. --------------------------------- As the Buddha taught, the Four Noble > Truths are to be found within "this fathom long body", not on DSG, > E-Sangha, at the Foundation, in the Abhidhamma, or in the Suttas. If > you are always looking for the answers outside of yourself, you will > never find them and will always feel anxious. > colette: here again, you phrase it nicely but you've added the concept of "...looking for the answers..." into the mix. I do not see it this way. I see it as trying to focus the eye to see something. It also relates to "tuning" a stringed instrument to get the right notes from plucking the string (vibration). Kindof like the Hubble telescope: it needed concave lenses but the brain scientists or rocket surgeons put in convex lenses, originally, and the "eye in the sky" needed corrective lenses. -------------------------------- > Colette, you and Ven. P may think I am some sort of jerk or monster, > but that is okay- I am used to that. colette: glad to see you don't mind the atmosphere that I know and am very close to. People? Their opinions about me? What a joke! ------------------------------ I tell people things I think > they need to hear, even if it pisses them off. colette: a very good definition for why people have refused to employ me since I turned 17 yrs. of age in 1978. STILL, I haven't learned my lesson, I'm gonna be truethful with people and damned to bad luck if my words do not masturbate them, gratify them, since it's not my responsibility to make them feel good about being alive. ----------------------------- And, if you don't like > it, that's no reason to quit DSG- just don't read my posts. No one is > forcing you to and I wouldn't be bothered at all. Thank you James. It seems that I simply misread or needed to get something out of myself, which caused me to see how I saw your post. toodles, colette #82031 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Jan 30, 2008 8:33 am Subject: Nothing really is... bhikkhu0 Friends: How to Cross Samsara? The venerable Upasiva once requested the Buddha: Sir, I am alone, dependent, helpless, I can neither cross the flood of sense desire, nor the flood of becoming, nor the flood of ignorance, nor the flood of views! Please, All-Seeing-One, tell me the meditation object by which, I may cross this flood. Aware, direct mind towards Nothingness, replied the Buddha, be helped by relying on the notion: 'Nothing really is...'! Thus by relinquishing all desires, by stilling all speculative opinions & by reviewing the elimination of craving day & night, one may cross this flood…!!! Source: Sutta Nipata 1069-70 Nothing really is... Friendship is the Greatest * Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka :-) ..... #82032 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Jan 30, 2008 5:31 pm Subject: Re: could sombody help me with a question? dhammanusara Hello Bhikkhu Aggacitto (and Alex), - Please allow me to answer your question too. > > Aggacitto: > > is there somewhere in the Pali Canon ( M.N.perhaps?)where the > > Ven.Gotama declares... "i teach neither self nor no self"? > > if so where is it? Tep: Some selected suttas below might be close enough. 1) "If, Aananda, when asked by the Wanderer: 'Is there a self?,' I had replied to him: 'There is a self,' then, Aananda, that would be siding with the recluses and brahmins who are eternalists. "But if, Aananda, when asked: 'Is there not a self?' I had replied that it does not exist, that, Aananda, would be siding with those recluses and brahmins who are annihilationists. [SN 44.10] 2) "There are these three kinds of acquisition of self (atta- patilaabha): gross, constituted of mind, and immaterial... The first has materiality and consists of the four great entities (elements of earth, water, fire, and air), and consumes physical food; the second is constituted by mind with all the limbs and lacking no faculty; the third consists of perception... I teach the Doctrine (dhamma) for the abandoning of acquisitions of self in order that in you, who put the teaching into practice, defiling ideas may be abandoned and cleansing ideas increase, and that you, by realization yourselves here and now with direct knowledge, enter upon and abide in the fullness of understanding's perfection".[DN 9] 3) "Bhikkhus, the possession that one might possess that were permanent, everlasting... do you see any such possession?" â€" "No, Lord." â€" "...The self-theory clinging whereby one might cling that would never arouse sorrow and... despair in him who might cling thereby: do you see any such self-theory clinging?" â€" "No, Lord." â€" "...The view as support that one might take as support that would never arouse sorrow and... despair in him who might take it as support: do you see any such view as support?" â€" "No, Lord." â€" "...Bhikkhus, there being self, there would be self's property?" â€" "Yes, Lord." â€" "...Or there being self's property, there would be self?" â€" "Yes, Lord." â€" "Bhikkhus, self and self's property being unapprehendable as true and established (saccato thetato: cf. use at MN 2), then would not this view 'This is self, this the world; after death I shall be permanent... endure as long as eternity' be the pure perfection of a fool's idea?" â€" "How not, Lord? It would be the pure perfection of a fool's idea". "Both formerly and now, monks, I declare only stress and the cessation of stress". [MN 22] 4) "'Void world, void world' is said, Lord. In what way is 'void world' said?" â€" "It is because of what is void of self or self's property that 'void world' is said, Aananda. And what is void of self or self's property? The eye... forms... eye-consciousness... eye- contact... any feeling, whether pleasant or unpleasant or neither- unpleasant-nor-pleasant, that arises born of eye-contact, is void of self or self's property (and likewise with the other five bases)." [SN 35.85 : Suñña Sutta] 5) "The five faculties, monks, continue as they were. And with regard to them the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones abandons ignorance and gives rise to clear knowing. Owing to the fading of ignorance and the arising of clear knowing, (the thoughts) â€" 'I am,' 'I am this,' 'I shall be,' 'I shall not be,' 'I shall be possessed of form,' 'I shall be formless,' 'I shall be percipient (conscious),' 'I shall be non-percipient,' and 'I shall be neither percipient nor non-percipient' â€" do not occur to him." [SN 22.47 : Samanupassana Sutta] ....................... Best wishes, Tep === #82033 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Jan 30, 2008 6:10 pm Subject: Sakkaayaabhirato Re: Bare observation? Not doing anything? No control? scottduncan2 Dear Suan, Thanks for the reply: S: "How are you?" Scott: I'm well, Suan. Yours is a very good clarification. S: "Sakkaayaabhirato is the correct word, not sakkaayaadhirato...So, please go to those Setions in your Pali text edition to find out if Sakkaayaabhirato occurs." Scott: I used the following source: http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/ Cutting and pasting, you can see that the 'b' was rendered as a 'd'. "sakkaayaadhirato" This is interesting since I was just reading Margaret Cone's essay in the Journal of the Pali Text Society, 2007 edition, "caveat lector". She writes (p. 96): "The transmission of the texts covers a very long period, but most of our mss are comparatively recent. We can make no confident assumption that what we have is anywhere near the actual Buddhavacana (or indeed Buddhagosavacana); what we have is the product of centuries of careful copying, careless copying, knowledge, incompetence, inspired emendation and bungling...And none of that stopped with the beginning of Western scholarship..." Scott: Sobering, and here is a good example in our own studies! S: "According to the commentary on Section 14, Chakkanipaata Pali, sakkaaya is defined as round of rebirths in three existential domains (kaama, ruupa and aruupa),"sakkaayanti tebhuumakava.t.tam". "Thus, sakkaayaabhirato means simply being happy with perpetual rebirths in samsaara. "The compound 'Sakkaayaabhirato' occurs in Sections 14 and 15 as well." Scott: Is the verb, then, "bharati"? [PTS PED: Bharati...to bear, support, feed, maintain...] Thanks again, Suan. I hope you are well. Sincerely, Scott. #82034 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Jan 30, 2008 6:36 pm Subject: Re: Are thoughts vipaka? dhammanusara Hi Elaine & DC, - I enjoy your conversation. I hope you don't mind a few questions. ;-) >E: Actually not everything is due to kamma. T: What are the exceptions you can think of? >E: They think that there is no harm in killing their 'enemies' because their thinking is all messed up. T: What about killing with the right understanding that there are no beings, no self, no kamma vipaka, because there is no kamma "doer"? >E: So, imo, our thinking is deeply influenced by factors that we are aware of, and unaware of. T: So, if there are factors that we are unaware of, then how may we control our thinking such that we may have only wholesome thoughts most of the time? But if we cannot "control our thinking", then how can we abandon miccha-sankappa and develop samma-sankappa? Thank you. Tep === #82035 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Jan 30, 2008 6:58 pm Subject: Re: Reverb, "colder than a witches tit" scottduncan2 Dear colette, Thanks for the reply, my friend: c: "Minus 37 degrees celcius, ouch, how close is that to the temperature of LOX? Spending a lot of time in the cockpit of a fighter reequires that I have plenty of LOX for my mask." Scott: No way, a Fighter Pilot!? I actually don't know what LOX is. Anyway, definitely colder than a witch's tit. Exactly what I said to myself when I went out and froze my own off. It's warmer now, though: Minus 27 degrees Celsius. We call it a Chinook in this neck of the tundra. colette: "THANK YOU! That is a first! I have never been told, during my ops nor told in reviewing my past ops, that I have any good in my ops, in my self and in my entire existance, AND I'VE GOT A 30 yr. anniversery approaching that gratifies the people of Chicago and the USA for only giving me HATRED, THEIR HATRED, EVERY DAY, EVERY SECOND, and I will not allow that anniversery to go without getting my duckies lined up since St. Valentines Day is approaching as well." Scott: This made me Very Happy to read, colette. I'm so glad I noticed this in you. Sometimes, once in a very long while, I notice it in me and it makes me happy too. colette: "yes, I know, but I also know that my attitudes and my opinions and my advice and my existance, IS VIEWED AND REBUKED BY ALL AMERICANS AS A REQUIREMENT to satisfy the PRE-REQUISITES FOR THEIR MEMBERSHIP IN THEIR GANG, GROUP, MOB, COVEN, CONGREGATION, ETC." Scott: Ah well, vive la difference I say. See you next time, colette. Sincerely, Scott. #82036 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Jan 30, 2008 7:50 pm Subject: Re: my last posting on this website jonoabb Hi Sumane Lovely to hear from you (and very glad to know that you are still with us). --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sumane Rathnasuriya" wrote: > > Hi Sarah, Sir James, Ven Bhante (I am sure your ven'ble self is there), > For those who wouldn't know or remember, I am an old member, benefiting from > DSG > > I think every one of you is missing a point here but circling around it > throughout! (means 'everyone knows what it is but when it comes to self - > well, it's "It's not of me" attitude, very common even outside DSG') > > Otherwise; > - how can Sarah say 'dysfunctional' even if James had said it of himself > previously? It could be the very point that made him seek a kind of strength > in exploring the Dhamma (may be, may not be or may be anyone here wouldn't > draw it out from deep within; not even James). Whatever, when I say "I am a > jerk" (sorry, to clarify better) it may mean anything anywhere else but > within DSG it's my *confession*, as I want to be rid of it and (seek to) > feel the following moment without it lingering in me any further. (So on & > so many for that.) BUT, in such circumstance, even if I have no bother you > using/recalling it to clarify a point, it wouldn't be the most appropriate > to reiterate. So dear Sarah, you should have gone for a better alternative. I take your point. However, James has had no better friend on the list over the years than Sarah, as I'm sure he appreciates, so I was surprised that he took offence at what was clearly an attempt to conciliate between two members. Enjoyed your reasoned thoughts. Please come in more often! Jon #82037 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Jan 30, 2008 8:03 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] my last posting on this website buddhatrue Hi Elaine (Sarah), and All, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "shennieca" wrote: > > Hi Sarah, > > > It is one thing when James talks about his own family, but it is a > totally different thing when you talk about his family that way. I > think your last post to James is unfair... :-/ The 4th precept includes > no gossiping and no wrong-speech. > > I agree with you that we should stick to Dhamma discussions. > > I'd like to apologize in advance if this post is offensive. I don't > have any intentions to hurt your feelings but I can guess your post > have hurt James's feelings... :-(( > > > With mettaa, > Elaine > Thank you for the kind and compassionate post. I was a little bothered, but not so bothered now. Sarah didn't really mean any harm; she was just trying to smooth things over between Ven. P and myself. I had made a royal mess of that situation, but I didn't know the bhante would freak out so much over what I wrote. I have the ability (talent? ;-)) to really irritate people without even knowing I am doing it. Sarah was just trying to explain that- not in a very skillful way, I think, but her intentions were good (she explained off-list to me). But, for the record, I never wrote to DSG that I communicate in a harsh way because I come from a "dysfunctional family". I once wrote that maybe I communicate rough because my parent's communicate rough, and I posted a recent e-mail that my father wrote to me filled with expletives. However, rough speech doesn't make a family dysfunctional or make the child of such a family dysfunctional. There was an arahant in the texts who used very rough speech and upset his fellow monks all the time, and the Buddha told the upset monks, basically, to get over it. Yes, I do come from what you could call a "dysfunctional family" (although I don't like that term). My parents were alcoholics (but have since stopped drinking) and my brother and sister died from drug abuse, leaving me an only child. But, there are many people who come from such backgrounds who don't use harsh speech. The thing that bothered me about Sarah's post is that she implied (unintentionally) that because I come from a dysfunctional family that makes me dysfunctional, and so what I say should be discounted. But, that is not the case. I have raised myself up out the muck and mud of my family background to become a very functional person- all with the help of the Buddha's teaching. Anyway, I am going to lay low for a while and not post anymore. Things have gotten too hot here in DSG and it is mainly my fault. There is no need to respond to this post. Let's just forget this ugly business and move on. Metta, James #82038 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Jan 30, 2008 8:19 pm Subject: Re: my last posting on this website buddhatrue Hi Sumane, Thank you for your post. You raise a lot of important issues. There is no doubt about it, I screwed up with Ven. P. And the more I tried to explain myself, the worse it got! Perhaps I have too much of an "idealistic" notion of what it takes to be a monk or how a monk should behave. Anyway, I am just going to steer very clear of that subject in the future. Thanks again for your post and take care. Metta, James ps. Glad you liked my posts to the Starkids. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sumane Rathnasuriya" wrote: > > Hi Sarah, Sir James, Ven Bhante (I am sure your ven'ble self is there), > For those who wouldn't know or remember, I am an old member, benefiting from > DSG #82039 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Jan 30, 2008 9:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Outline of Purification of View V.4 kenhowardau Hi Larry (Sarah and all), I'd like to sign up. Just tell me what you want me to do - when you're ready. Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@... wrote: > > Hi Sarah and all, > > Sarah: "OK, I'll do my best in my own very quirky, dysfunctional and > controversial way:). I hope you, Ken H, Connie and others will assist." > > Larry: Great! I'm sure you will enjoy it, as will we all. > > If anyone would like to 'sign-up' to present a chapter, let me know. > #82040 From: "shennieca" Date: Wed Jan 30, 2008 10:53 pm Subject: Re: Are thoughts vipaka? shennieca Hi Tep, all, Thank you for the challenging questions. I am not able to answer them but I found the answers from an essay written by Sayadaw U Silananda called Volition (an introduction to the law of kamma). -- E: Actually not everything is due to kamma. T: What are the exceptions you can think of? Quote / Is everything due to kamma? In the Buddhist Dictionary Venerable Nyanatiloka writes: “Totally wrong is the belief that, according to Buddhism, everything is the result of previous action.â€? Any kammically wholesome or unwholesome Volitional action is Not the result of former action because it is the action itself, *Volition is Not influenced by the results of past kamma*. There are several categories of cittas, of consciousness. One of the types of cittas is called resultant. Resultant consciousness is the result of kamma, but other types of consciousness are not the result of kamma. So NOT everything is due to kamma. For example, we see something desirable, that seeing consciousness is caused by kamma. But our reaction to that seeing or to that object is Not caused by kamma. Our reaction is a new kamma that we perform. Seeing a desirable object is a result of good kamma, seeing an undesirable objects the result of bad kamma. If we see a beautiful rose, that is the result of good kamma. The rose is not the result of kamma - it is just a natural object. But the consciousness that sees this rose is the result of good kamma. Then comes your reaction. If you have attachment to the rose, then your reaction is unwholesome (akusala), if your reaction is to see the true nature of the rose - that it is impermanent, without a soul, and subject to the laws of rise and fall - then your reaction is not to get attached to it, which is wholesome (kusala). That reaction is either kusala or akusala and will give results in the future. *Whatever you come cross in this life is the result of kamma in the past, but your reaction to it is not the result. Your reaction is a new kamma.* --------------------------- Elaine: summary: 1. Seeing consciousness is caused by kamma, i.e. seeing a desirable or an undesirable object. 2. But Volition is Not influenced by the results of past kamma. 3. Whatever we come cross in this life is the result of Past Kamma but our reaction to it is Not, our reaction is a New Kamma. I hope we can discuss this a bit more. ------------- T: What about killing with the right understanding that there are no beings, no self, no kamma vipaka, because there is no kamma "doer"? Elaine: Imo, there is no such thing as killing with right understanding. When there is right understanding, there is no intentional killing. Killing can only occur when there is wrong- understanding. I don’t understand anatta and no kamma ‘doer’. -------------------- E: So, imo, our thinking is deeply influenced by factors that we are aware of, and unaware of. T: So, if there are factors that we are unaware of, then how may we control our thinking such that we may have only wholesome thoughts most of the time? But if we cannot "control our thinking", then how can we abandon miccha-sankappa and develop samma-sankappa? Elaine: I’m sorry, I said there are factors that we are aware and not aware of, these are my own theories and hypothesis. In practise, I think we should learn to be aware of the consciousness of seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling, tasting, thinking. We have to learn how to watch seeing as seeing, hearing as hearing, as it is, like in Malunkyaputta Sutta. I think the practical approach is more beneficial than talking about 'factors that we are unaware of. Sorry about that. I don't believe in 'cannot control our thinking' or have 'full control of our thinking'. All puthujjanas cannot Fully control their thinking because puthujjanas are mad!! I think only Arahants can 'control' their thinking because they are fully aware. What I mean by control is, it is not like the Arahants can control pain by making it go away. But, he can be aware of it and not let it affect his mind. That’s what I understand by being 'in-control'. The Arahant’s mind is not afflicted by sensual-desires but ours are perpetually afflicted every minute of the day. ;-)) I think we should use the word control in a better way, for e.g. 'we are more 'in- control' of our speech, actions, thoughts when we are aware of the consciousness that come in from the sense-doors'. What do you think? With mettaa & respect, Elaine #82041 From: han tun Date: Thu Jan 31, 2008 12:57 am Subject: Perfections Corner (81) hantun1 Dear All, This is the presentation in installment of The Perfections Leading to Enlightenment by Ajahn Sujin Boriharnwanaket; and translated by Nina van Gorkom. http://www.zolag.co.uk/ - Chapter 6: The Perfection of Patience (continuation) We read: "Anger is the only real enemy, for it is the agent of all harm and the destroyer of all good." And: "When one has patience one has no enemies." We still have akusala, we have defilements, and these condition the arising of displeasure. However, we should know whether the person we are angry with has good qualities. If he has, we should not be angry. If he behaves in an improper way, we should have compassion with him. If kusala citta arises with sati-sampajañña, it is the condition for patience to increase. We read in the “Basket of Conduct” (Khuddaka Nikåya), II,5, “Conduct of Buffalo-King” that the Bodhisatta was born as a Buffalo [1] . A monkey urinated four times over his shoulder, forehead and eyebrows. A yakkha advised him to kill that monkey, but the Bodhisatta did not give in to anger. He wanted to keep his purity of síla and did not kill that monkey. He aspired for omniscience. He said: “Someone of wisdom, who is forgiving disrespect among low, medium, high, thus obtains, intent of mind, according as he aspired.” A wise person will have patience and he can endure words of disdain, no matter whether these are spoken by someone who is higher in rank, who is lower in rank or by an evil person, because one should develop patience with regard to everybody. We read in the Commentary to the “Basket of Conduct”, with regard to the “Conduct of Dhamma the Devaputta” that the Bodhisatta was born as Dhamma, a Devaputta (son of a Deva), and Devadatta as Adhamma. Dhamma would on Uposatha days (vigil days) appear among men and propagate what was right, the ten wholesome deeds, whereas Adhamma propagated the ten evil actions. One day their two chariots met in mid-air, and they each claimed the right of way. -------------------- Note 1: Nina had added the contents of the story, as told in the Basket of Conduct. -------------------- To be continued. Han #82042 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Thu Jan 31, 2008 1:11 am Subject: Abhiramati Is The Verb --- Sakkaayaabhirato Re: Bare observation? Not doing any abhidhammika Dear Scott D, Nina, Alex I am well, Scott. You asked: "Is the verb, then, "bharati"? [PTS PED: Bharati...to bear, support, feed, maintain...] No, Scott, I am afraid. The verb form for abhirato is 'abhiramati'. Some related words are abhirataa, anabhirataa. Please check 'Papaata Suttam', Section 1112, Mahaavagga Pali, Samyutta Nikaayo. You will see those noun forms being contrasted. As the subject was ascetics and braahmins (ye hi keci, bhikkhave, sama.naa vaa braahma.naa vaa), you will also see the verb in the plural form (abhiramanti). Anabhirataa is the term you will see very frenquently in the Pali texts. With regards, Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org #82043 From: "Sukinder" Date: Thu Jan 31, 2008 1:15 am Subject: Re: the present moment sukinderpal Dear TG and Nina, I hope you don't mind that I make some general comments. TG, you have said to the effect that you consider "all the Buddha's teachings as aiming towards detaching the mind and overcoming suffering". I agree with the statement, but I think our attitudes are quite different, including what means `detachment', `mind' and `suffering'. But let me move on. You say that the kind of `detachment' is brought about not by `knowing present moment realities' alone, but also by `reflecting in terms of conventional realities', such as people being born, growing old and dying. Nina and some of us on the other hand, though we value such reflections, do not see this as being anything more than a kind of `kusala thinking' with no direct link to the development of vipassana panna. Any "understanding" at the level of thinking, including of paramattha dhammas, could be said to be an instance of samatha. Pariyatti however, the particular kind of kusala thinking which is about `present moment experiences', this is precursor to Patipatti / satipatthana and this in turn is the *only Path* to Pativedha. Other `understandings', including the kind of reflections you talk about, are samatha and at best lead only to the development of the same, but never to vipassana panna. Conventional impermanence, suffering and non-self is not the same as the *characteristics* re: anicca, dukkha and anatta. The former, unlike the latter, can ever only be `thought about', never "insighted". The citta that thinks these, yes this exhibit the characteristics, but the concepts don't. So when usually we are `lost' in stories, including of conventional impermanence etc, this is due to ignorance arising in between to cover up the characteristic of dhammas. Therefore while one thinks to `study from' these conventional situations, one may inadvertently be encouraging ignorance of realities, including those that might have conditioned such a `view' to begin with! While Pariyatti is about and aimed at present moment realities, the kind of understanding / practice you are proposing, this does not even qualify as `right intellectual understanding'. Yet without Pariyatti, there can't be any Patipatti and without this, Pativedha. So is it an obsession on Nina's part to remind us about the importance of knowing the present moment, or is it saying that *this* is the only way possible to develop wisdom and therefore detachment, of the Buddha kind? Detachment is got not from developing an `attitude' of mind, but from `understanding / insight' into the nature of realities. And it is not like we need to remind ourselves about it, but rather this is an accompaniment to wisdom. Furthermore, when Nina talks about hearing / reading about conventional impermanence, that this is "reminder" about the present moment, she is encouraging the only path of development possible, away from any idea otherwise that thinking about concepts could lead to the same. You think that she jumps to being "theoretical" at this point; all I can say is, "if only you ever "applied" it yourself"! When one reads about understanding the khandhas as being the same in the past as it is now and so will all the future ones, sure, this could all be just "theory". But not necessarily so, because if upon hearing this, one's attention is drawn to the present moment with understanding, this indeed is a big difference in how the above statement is "understood". The khandhas of the past and future, instead of being mere `idea' (about situation), is now seen in light of the understanding of the Khandha *now*. So again, it is not that Nina is twisting any statements in the Suttas to fit her "NOW" view, but in fact she is interpreting them in the only way that they should be. And because you continue to make the distinction that you do, it seems in fact that it is you rather, who sees `knowing present moment realities' / satipatthana from a purely `theoretical' point of view. Sorry to be blunt here. TG, please don't feel obliged to respond. I'd rather that you continue discussing with Nina and I perhaps occasionally make a few comments. ;-) Metta, Sukin > TG's Response... > > > You say you agree, but your comments regarding decomposition and the > cemetery contemplations seem to me to miss the point. You agree, but then comment > in a way that disagrees? You want to be accommodating, I'll give you that. > ;-) But you can't have your cake and eat it too! The cemetery contemplations > are not about being aware of "our own decomposition now" except conceptually, > in our imaginations. They are about "projecting" and using the #82044 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 31, 2008 3:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sakkaayaabhirato Re: sutta texts. nilovg Dear Scott, Op 31-jan-2008, om 3:10 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: > This is interesting since I was just reading Margaret Cone's essay in > the Journal of the Pali Text Society, 2007 edition, "caveat lector". > She writes (p. 96): > > "The transmission of the texts covers a very long period, but most of > our mss are comparatively recent. We can make no confident assumption > that what we have is anywhere near the actual Buddhavacana (or indeed > Buddhagosavacana); what we have is the product of centuries of careful > copying, careless copying, knowledge, incompetence, inspired > emendation and bungling...And none of that stopped with the beginning > of Western scholarship..." > > Scott: Sobering, and here is a good example in our own studies! -------- N: I would like to say: caveat Margaret Cone. To begin with, the texts was transmitted by rote which I find very reliable. They were recited in groups of noble persons and in that way mistakes can be checked. As to copying, perhaps a letter like b or d, but no grave things. Why? We can see so many texts that are similar in different parts of the Tipitika, quoted over and over again in different parts of the Commentaries. And even though texts were written, they were still recited since that way of preserving them was preferred for a long time in India, as I read somewhere. Margaret says: Some people conclude that very few original suttas are left which are the words of the Buddha. They say: four Nikayas and even from that they subtract suttas. I find this regrettable and worrysome. Nina. #82045 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Jan 31, 2008 4:34 am Subject: Abhiramati Is The Verb --- Sakkaayaabhirato Re: Bare observation? Not doing any scottduncan2 Dear Suan, Thanks for your clarification: S: "No, Scott, I am afraid. The verb form for abhirato is 'abhiramati'. Some related words are abhirataa, anabhirataa. Please check 'Papaata Suttam', Section 1112, Mahaavagga Pali, Samyutta Nikaayo..." Sincerely, Scott. #82046 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Jan 31, 2008 5:40 am Subject: [dsg] Sakkaayaabhirato Re: sutta texts. scottduncan2 Dear Nina, Thanks for the reply: N: "I would like to say: caveat Margaret Cone..." Scott: Of course. Hers is an opinion. N: "To begin with, the texts was transmitted by rote which I find very reliable. They were recited in groups of noble persons and in that way mistakes can be checked. As to copying, perhaps a letter like b or d, but no grave things. Why? We can see so many texts that are similar in different parts of the Tipitika, quoted over and over again in different parts of the Commentaries." Scott: For me this highlights even more how a careful study of the suttas is a requisite. Abhirato versus adhirato is still a difference. Someone erred in transcription, and, in being reminded of this possibility, I find I want to take even greater care. The meanings one takes from the texts can differ if a wrong word is used to base one's understanding on. Reading 'adhirata', with the transposition of the 'b' for 'd', lead me off on some wild goose chase, thinking of some compound word with the prefix 'adhi' and the verb 'rata'. This lead me to thinking about higher devotion to something versus: "Abhirata (adj.) ( -- Ëš) [pp. of abhiramati] found of, indulging in, finding delight..." Even the PTS PED seems to have an error - 'found of' versus 'fond of'. At any rate, I was off course due to a transcription error. N: "And even though texts were written, they were still recited since that way of preserving them was preferred for a long time in India, as I read somewhere. Margaret says: Some people conclude that very few original suttas are left which are the words of the Buddha. They say: four Nikayas and even from that they subtract suttas. I find this regrettable and worrysome." Scott: I don't hold with this narrow sutta-only view either. I find it to be an intense form of fundamentalism which is, as you say, both regrettable and worrisome. I find a reliance on only the suttas and only the English translation (and the vagaries of the translator), without even an attempt to find out what the Paa.li might be (leaving aside worries about unreliable transcriptions) to be equally troubling. I think it is irresponsible. This only allows for one's own, inevitably incorrect albeit creative, meanings to be propagated. One can then feel (just sticking with the English and thinking great thoughts about the meaning of English words and phrases as if this is how the Dhamma was originally spoken) like some Vital Co-creator of Dhamma, some Weighty and Important Theoretician, some sort of Smug, Holier-Than-Thou Know-It-All who can proclaim the True Meaning to All and Sundry. Just an opinion from an opinionated guy... Thanks, Nina. Sincerely, Scott. #82047 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 31, 2008 6:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sakkaayaabhirato Re: sutta texts. nilovg Dear Scott and Suan, Op 31-jan-2008, om 14:40 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: > I find a reliance on only the suttas and only the English translation > (and the vagaries of the translator), without even an attempt to find > out what the Paa.li might be (leaving aside worries about unreliable > transcriptions) to be equally troubling. I think it is irresponsible. --------- N: Meanhwile I read the whole article, I also have this Journal. I would appreciate Suan's ideas about this article. If we also use the ancient commentaries we shall be very close to the texts, and this was demonstrated by Suan about the abhirata passage. But the English translations of the commentaries are also rather obscure at times. I find it very usefull to consult the Thai. Norman has written interesting articles, he made many studies, but he very much advocates the philology approach. Then there is a danger of going away from the original meaning of the Dhamma. We have to check what we read above all by the practice: awareness of the present moment. (I shall answer TG later on). If the texts do not help me now I study in vain. Nina. #82048 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Thu Jan 31, 2008 6:14 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (73) nichiconn Dear Friends, Part 29 16. Mahaanipaato 1. Sumedhaatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa 484. "Saa ca manasi karoti, aniikaratto ca aaruhii turita.m; ma.nikanakabhuusita"ngo, kata~njalii yaacati sumedha.m. 482. Just as she was being attentive, Anikaratta when up [into the palace] quickly. With his body adorned with jewels and gold, with raised hands together, he begged Sumedhaa: Ma.nikanakabhuusita"ngoti ma.nivicittehi hemamaalaala"nkaarehi vibhuusitagatto. 482. With hs body adorned with jewels and gold (ma.ni-kanaka-bhuusit'-a"ngo) means: with his body decorated (vibhuusita-gatto) with ornaments of garlands of gold and various sorts of jewels (ma.ni-vicittehi). 485. "Rajje aa.naa dhanamissariya.m, bhogaa sukhaa daharikaasi; bhu~njaahi kaamabhoge, kaamasukhaa dullabhaa loke. 483. "In kingship there are [giving of] orders, wealth, authority, happy enjoyments. You are young. Enjoy the enjoyments of sensual pleasures. Happiness from sensual pleasures is hard to obtain in the world. Rajje aa.naati-aadi yaacitaakaaranidassana.m. Tattha aa.naati aadhipacca.m. Issariyanti yaso vibhavasampatti. Bhogaa sukhaati i.t.thaa manaapiyaa kaamuupabhogaa. Daharikaasiiti tva.m idaani daharaa taru.nii asi. 483. In kingship there are [giving of] orders, etc, is an indication of the way he begs her. There, orders means: sovereignty. The enjoyments (bhogaa) of sensual pleasures means: the enjoyments of the sensual pleasures that are desirable and lovely. You are ('si) young (daharikaa) means: you are (asi) young (daharaa, taru.nii) now. 486. "Nissa.t.tha.m te rajja.m, bhoge bhu~njassu dehi daanaani; maa dummanaa ahosi, maataapitaro te dukkhitaa. 484. "[My] kingdom has been bestowed upon you. Enjoy enjoyments. Give gifts. Do not be depressed. Your mother and father are pained." Nissa.t.tha.m te rajjanti mayha.m sabbampi tiyojanika.m rajja.m tuyha.m pariccatta.m, ta.m pa.tipajjitvaa bhoge ca bhu~njassu, aya.m ma.m kaamehiyeva nimantetiiti maa dummanaa ahosi. Dehi daanaaniiti yathaaruciyaa mahantaani daanaani sama.nabraahma.nesu pavattehi, maataapitaro te dukkhitaa domanassappattaa tava pabbajjaadhippaaya.m sutvaa tasmaa kaame paribhu~njantii. Tepi upa.t.thahantii tesa.m citta.m dukkhaa mocehiiti evamettha padatthayojanaa veditabbaa. 484. [My] kingdom has been bestowed upon you means: all my kingdom, three leagues in extent, has been given to you. Be intent on that and enjoy enjoyments. Do not be depressed, thinking, "He is only enticing me with sensual pleasures."* Give gifts means: [give] extensive gifts just as you please to ascetics and brahmans. Your mother and father are pained (dukkhitaa); they are depressed, having heard of your intention to go forth. Therefore, enjoy sensual pleasures, and serving them [your parents, free their mind[s] from pain (dukkhaa). This is the way the words are to be interpreted here, how they are to be understood. *I.e., he is not serious about what he is offering. 487. "Ta.m ta.m bha.nati sumedhaa, kaamehi anatthikaa vigatamohaa; maa kaame abhinandi, kaamesvaadiinava.m passa. 485. Then Sumedhaa, unconcerned with sensual pleasures and free from delusion, said this: "Do not rejoice in sensual pleasures. See the peril in sensual pleasures. Maa kaame abhinandiiti vatthukaame kilesakaame maa abhinandi. Atha kho tesu kaamesu aadiinava.m dosa.m mayha.m vacanaanusaarena passa ~naa.nacakkhunaa olokehi. 485. Do not rejoice in sensual pleasures means: do not rejoice in the pleasures of possessions or the pleasures that are defilements. And then see (passa), see (olokehi) with the eye of knowledge, in accord with my word, the peril, the fault, in these sensual pleasures. .. to be continued, connie #82049 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 31, 2008 6:18 am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 235. 236, and Tiika. nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 235. 236 Intro: In the previous section it was shown that craving can be classified as six by way of the objects experienced through the six doors and as eighteen when each of these are reckoned as sensuous craving without wrong view, and as accompanied by eternity belief or accompanied by annihilation belief. In this section it is shown that these eighteen kinds of craving can be classified as thirtysix, when seen as internal (pertaining to oneself) and external (pertaining to someone else), and as one- hundred-and-eight when reckoned as past, future and present. -------- Text Vis. 235: When visible-data craving occurs enjoying with sense- desire enjoyment a visible datum as object that has come into the focus of the eye, it is called craving for sense desires. But when [that same visible-data craving] occurs along with the eternity view that assumes that same object to be lasting and eternal, it is called craving for becoming; for it is the greed accompanying the eternity view that is called craving for becoming. When it occurs along with the annihilation view that assumes that same object to break up and be destroyed, it is called craving for non-becoming. So also in the case of craving for sounds, and so on. These amount to eighteen kinds of craving. The eighteen with respect to one's own visible data (one's own appearance), etc., and eighteen with respect to external [visible data (another's appearance), etc.,] together make thirty-six kinds. Thirty-six in the past, thirty-six in the future, and thirty-six in the present, make one-hundred-and-eight kinds of craving. When these are reduced again, they should be understood to amount to the six kinds only with visible data, etc., as object; and these, to three only, as craving for sense desires, and so on. ------- N: As to craving accompanied by eternity belief or annihilation belief, the Tiika explains that these are modes of occurrance of delight in the qualities of visible object and the other sense objects. Though the three modes of the occurrance of craving are distinguished, all of them pertain to enjoyment in sense objects (kevala.m kaamassaadavasena). ********** Text Vis. 236: Out of selfish affection for feeling after taking pleasure in it when it arises through a visible datum as object, etc., these beings accord much honour to painters, musicians, perfumers, cooks, weavers, distillers of elixirs, physicians, etc., who furnish respectively visible data as object, etc., just as out of affection for a child they reward the child's nurse after taking pleasure in the child. That is why it should be understood that these three kinds of craving have feeling as their condition. ---------------------- N: The Tiika explains that feeling should be considered as the child, and that visible object etc. that are the condition for feeling are like the wetnurse. The six objects such as furnished by the painters etc. are like the wetnurse who provides milk to the child. The painters, mentioned in the simile provide a pleasant visible object, the musicians a pleasant sound, the perfumers a fragrant odour, the cook a delicious flavour, and the weavers material that is a pleasant tangible object. The Tiika explains that the physicians and the distillers of elixir containing nutrititive essence (oja) support life and thereby are giving the basis for pleasant contact (sukhasamphassavatthadaayako); they have to be seen as furnishing mental object. ------- Conclusion: This reminds us that we find it very important whether contact contacts a pleasant object. Feeling arising on account of such an object is sought after, it conditions craving. We wish for pleasant objects again and again, since these condition pleasant feeling, and there is no end to craving so long as the latent tendency of ignorance has not been eradicated. The classification of craving as one -hundred-and-eight kinds, shows us that the field of craving is immense. ********* Nina. #82050 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 31, 2008 6:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: processes of citta in the Abhidhamma. nilovg Hi Howard, Op 28-jan-2008, om 14:24 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Specifically, which of the following occur in the > Vibhanga & the PTSM? ---------- > They occur in the PTSM and Abhidhamma, Dhammasangani included, but > under different names. They are classified as mind-element, mano-dhaatu and mind- consciousness element, mano-vi~n~naa.na dhaatu. Mano-dhaatu are the sense-door adverting consciousness (kiriyacitta, the first one of a sense-door process), and receiving-consciousness, two types, one kusala vipaakacitta and one akusala vipaakacitta. Mano-vi~n~naa.na dhaatu includes all cittas except the sense- cognitions and mind-element. In the abhidhamma their place in the process and their functions are the same as we find them in the Co, but the names of receiving, sampa.ticchana, etc. are not used in the abhidhamma. We have to remember that indeterminate in these contexts incudes vipaaka, result, and kiriya, inoperative. Thus note: they do occur in the Abhidhamma but they do not have the same names as in the Co. Thus, we have to look at the jaati (kusala, akusala and indeterminate, including vipaaka and kiriya) and their position within the process. ------- The Dhammasangani: sense-door adverting consciousness (not under this name) is indeterminate, and here: kiriyacitta, inoperative. It is mind-element, manodhaatu that is kiriya. § 566 (p. 145) : This is clearly the sense-door adverting consciousness. §568: mind-door adverting consciousness. This is mind-consciousness element, which is indeterminate, here: kiriyacitta. The sense-cognitions: § 431: indeterminate, which is vipaaka. After these follows the sampa.ticchanacitta, receiving-consciousness: §454: (p. 119), kusala vipaaka mano-dhaatu: mind element. Note the position in the process: dealt with after after the sense-cognitions of seeing, etc. (pa~ncavi~n~naa.nas). § 469 (p. 122): After that investigating-consciousness, santiira.nacitta: kusala vipaaka mano-vi~n~naa.na dhaatu, mind- consciousness element. As to votthapanacitta in the sense-door process, this is the same type as the mind-door adverting consciousness. In the other paras we find kusala cittas and akusala cittas. The term javana: only in the Co. See the Patthaana under repetition-condition and proximity-condition for one type of kusala citta or akusala citta that is the condition for a succeeding type. Not: the number seven. We read in the “Paììhåna (Analytical Exposition, Repetition-condition): ******* to be continued. Nina. -------- #82051 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jan 31, 2008 1:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: processes of citta in the Abhidhamma. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 1/31/2008 9:34:19 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Op 28-jan-2008, om 14:24 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Specifically, which of the following occur in the > Vibhanga & the PTSM? ---------- > They occur in the PTSM and Abhidhamma, Dhammasangani included, but > under different names. They are classified as mind-element, mano-dhaatu and mind- consciousness element, mano-vi~n~naa.na dhaatu. ================================= I'm confused, Nina I don't recall such a post from me, and in checking what I mailed off on Jan 28, I don't find anything along these lines. Can you point me in the right direction, please? With metta, Howard #82052 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 31, 2008 7:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: processes of citta in the Abhidhamma. nilovg Hi Howard, the title was before: are thoughts vipaka. Op 31-jan-2008, om 15:51 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > I'm confused, Nina I don't recall such a post from me, and in checking > what I mailed off on Jan 28, I don't find anything along these > lines. Can you > point me in the right direction, please? ----------- Here is the post: Hi, Nina (and Rob) - In a message dated 1/28/2008 4:01:24 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, I wrote before to Rob M about this. Yes, the Vibhanga, book of analysis, and also the patisambhidhamagga has different moments of citta in processes. But the co gives more details. Nina. Op 28-jan-2008, om 5:24 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > By 'thought moment' he means nothing more specific than > "citta", as I understand it. The details on all those various sorts > of cittas, > BTW, is strictly commentarial, as far as I know - that is, not even > occurring > in the Abhidhamma Pitaka. ================================ That's interesting. Specifically, which of the following occur in the Vibhanga & the PTSM? (0,1,2,3) Life continuum (bhavanga) a type of under-current or inactive consciousness (4) A series of thought consciousness sense-door adverting, e.g. seeing, hearing, etc. (5) Seeing (6) Receiving (7) Investigating (8) Determining (9-15) Apperception or Impulsion (7 moments of Javana) (16-17) Registering (0) Bhavanga again With metta, Howard #82053 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jan 31, 2008 2:13 am Subject: To Nina & Tep (Re: [dsg] Re: processes of citta in the Abhidhamma.) upasaka_howard Hi again, Nina (and Tep) - Okay, I've found it. My post was art of a thread with a different name! What I had asked in that thread was the following: _______________________________ That's interesting. Specifically, which of the following occur in the Vibhanga & the PTSM? (0,1,2,3) Life continuum (bhavanga) a type of under-current or inactive consciousness (4) A series of thought consciousness sense-door adverting, e.g. seeing, hearing, etc. (5) Seeing (6) Receiving (7) Investigating (8) Determining (9-15) Apperception or Impulsion (7 moments of Javana) (16-17) Registering (0) Bhavanga again ------------------------------------------------------- In a message dated 1/31/2008 9:34:19 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Op 28-jan-2008, om 14:24 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Specifically, which of the following occur in the > Vibhanga & the PTSM? ---------- > They occur in the PTSM and Abhidhamma, Dhammasangani included, but > under different names. They are classified as mind-element, mano-dhaatu and mind- consciousness element, mano-vi~n~naa.na dhaatu. Mano-dhaatu are the sense-door adverting consciousness (kiriyacitta, the first one of a sense-door process), and receiving-consciousness, two types, one kusala vipaakacitta and one akusala vipaakacitta. Mano-vi~n~naa.na dhaatu includes all cittas except the sense- cognitions and mind-element. In the abhidhamma their place in the process and their functions are the same as we find them in the Co, but the names of receiving, sampa.ticchana, etc. are not used in the abhidhamma. We have to remember that indeterminate in these contexts incudes vipaaka, result, and kiriya, inoperative. Thus note: they do occur in the Abhidhamma but they do not have the same names as in the Co. Thus, we have to look at the jaati (kusala, akusala and indeterminate, including vipaaka and kiriya) and their position within the process. ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: So, you are saying that these all occur, but under different names. Look, that may be so, but I find it unpersuasive. This sounds to me like after-the-fact imposition and reinterpretation. It sounds like an imposed, after-the-fact revising. Tep is very knowledgeable about the PTSM. I'd be interested in hearing what his perspective on this is with regard to what is explicit in the PTSM with respect to this process psychology. BTW. I rather *like* that theory! So, don't think I'm looking to refute here. I'm looking for the facts. ------------------------------------------------------- ------- The Dhammasangani: sense-door adverting consciousness (not under this name) is indeterminate, and here: kiriyacitta, inoperative. It is mind-element, manodhaatu that is kiriya. § 566 (p. 145) : This is clearly the sense-door adverting consciousness. §568: mind-door adverting consciousness. This is mind-consciousness element, which is indeterminate, here: kiriyacitta. -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Nina, oftentimes clarity is in the eye of the beholder. -------------------------------------------------------- The sense-cognitions: § 431: indeterminate, which is vipaaka. After these follows the sampa.ticchanacitta, receiving-consciousness: §454: (p. 119), kusala vipaaka mano-dhaatu: mind element. Note the position in the process: dealt with after after the sense-cognitions of seeing, etc. (pa~ncavi~n~naa.nas). § 469 (p. 122): After that investigating-consciousness, santiira.nacitta: kusala vipaaka mano-vi~n~naa.na dhaatu, mind- consciousness element. As to votthapanacitta in the sense-door process, this is the same type as the mind-door adverting consciousness. In the other paras we find kusala cittas and akusala cittas. The term javana: only in the Co. See the Patthaana under repetition-condition and proximity-condition for one type of kusala citta or akusala citta that is the condition for a succeeding type. Not: the number seven. We read in the “PaììhÃ¥na (Analytical Exposition, Repetition-condition): ******* to be continued. Nina. =============================== With metta, Howard #82054 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 31, 2008 7:50 am Subject: Alone with Dhamma, Ch 2, no 4. nilovg Dear friends, We may be discouraged to realize that very few moments of sati arise in a day or none at all. Acharn Sujin said: ”Instead of attending to the characteristics of realities there is thinking about them. But we should not have any expectations, otherwise it is me who would like to have progress.” I was grateful for such reminders. Time and again attachment to result arises but we do not notice this. Acharn Sujin said: “The development of understanding has to go along with detachment all the way, and that is against the current of life.” We are inclined to think of a self who has to become proficient. People wonder whether there are ways to induce the arising of sati such as the development of calm. They doubt whether listening to the Dhamma is a condition for the arising of sati. We read in the “Gradual Sayings” , Book of the Fours, Ch XXV, § 6: “Monks, these four states conduce to growth in wisdom. What four? Association with a good man, hearing Saddhamma, thorough work of mind, and behaviour in accordance with Dhamma. These are the four.” A good man is the translation of sappurisa, which usually denotes an ariyan who is a good friend in Dhamma. Saddhamma is true dhamma. Thorough work of mind stands for yoniso manasikåra, which is right attention to what one hears. Behaviour in accordance with Dhamma is dhammaanudhammapaìipatti, practice in accordance with the Dhamma. It is the application of the Dhamma one has heard and thoroughly considered through the development of satipatthåna. When we read that listening is an important condition we should remember that also considering the Dhamma and its application are implied. During our pilgrimage Acharn Sujin emphasized the role of saññå, remembrance, and in particular remembrance of Dhamma as the proximate cause of satipatthåna. Sa~n~nå arises with each citta and its function is “marking” and remembering the object that citta experiences. At the moment of seeing, sa~n~nå marks visible object and when seeing has fallen away sa~n~nå arising with the following cittas performs its function of marking and remembering. It accompanies the cittas that define and name what has been seen. On account of visible object we think about persons and things and sa~n~nå performs its function while it accompanies thinking. We think time and again of persons, things and events, but without sa~n~nå there could not be such thinking. Cittas arise and fall away very rapidly and it seems, that seeing, defining and thinking all arise at the same time, but only one citta arises at a time. When we recognize or remember things we should know that it is sa~n~nå, not self, that is doing so. ****** Nina. #82055 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 31, 2008 7:54 am Subject: Re: To Nina & Tep (Re: [dsg] Re: processes of citta in the Abhidhamma.) nilovg Hi Howard and Tep, Op 31-jan-2008, om 16:13 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > So, you are saying that these all occur, but under different names. > Look, that may be so, but I find it unpersuasive. This sounds to me > like > after-the-fact imposition and reinterpretation. It sounds like an > imposed, > after-the-fact revising. > Tep is very knowledgeable about the PTSM. I'd be interested in hearing > what his perspective on this is with regard to what is explicit in > the PTSM > with respect to this process psychology. BTW. I rather *like* that > theory! So, > don't think I'm looking to refute here. I'm looking for the facts. ------- N: In the PTSM under: behaviour of citta, Tep. I wanted to continue but had no time.I am going away next Saturday. I try. It is OK Howard if you find this after the fact revising. I do not. Nina. #82056 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jan 31, 2008 3:14 am Subject: Re: To Nina & Tep (Re: [dsg] Re: processes of citta in the Abhidhamma.) upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Tep) - In a message dated 1/31/2008 10:55:08 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard and Tep, Op 31-jan-2008, om 16:13 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > So, you are saying that these all occur, but under different names. > Look, that may be so, but I find it unpersuasive. This sounds to me > like > after-the-fact imposition and reinterpretation. It sounds like an > imposed, > after-the-fact revising. > Tep is very knowledgeable about the PTSM. I'd be interested in hearing > what his perspective on this is with regard to what is explicit in > the PTSM > with respect to this process psychology. BTW. I rather *like* that > theory! So, > don't think I'm looking to refute here. I'm looking for the facts. ------- N: In the PTSM under: behaviour of citta, Tep. I wanted to continue but had no time.I am going away next Saturday. ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: Have a good time, Nina. ------------------------------------------------- I try. It is OK Howard if you find this after the fact revising. I do not. --------------------------------------------------- Howard: This is how it *seems* to me, but I don't know nearly enough to hold a firm belief on it. What I need are some *facts*. If there are clear facts that point to this commentarial psychology being actually present in the Abhidhamma Pitaka and the PTSM themselves with different but clearly equivalent terminology & adequate detail, I will be quite satisfied. Short of that, I would consider such an assumption to be merely a matter of desire. (I would find it pleasant and interesting too, but that isn't enough for me to presume that it is the case.) BTW, if this psychology is found only in the commentaries, that does not make it invalid. I personally find it brilliant. ------------------------------------------------ Nina. ======================== With metta, Howard #82057 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Thu Jan 31, 2008 9:22 am Subject: Subject: Perfections Corner (81) nichiconn Dear Han, It would be tough to decide on a Most Favorite Quote from this chapter! Today's would be "Anger is the only real enemy, for it is the agent of all harm and the destroyer of all good." It kind of echoes back to the earlier commentarial quote that "Although this suffering arises through the wrong deeds of others, this body of mine is the field for that suffering, and the action which is its seed was sown by me alone." I'll just add a couple of other quotes from Lama Anagarika Govinda's "The Psychological Attitude of Early Buddhist Philosophy" (1974, Weiser, paperback) {note: <> = italics} p.63: In other words: out of the 121 classes of consciousness which are discussed in Buddhist psychology, sixty-three are accompanied by joy and only three are painful, while the remaining fifty-five classes are indifferent. A stronger refutation of pessimism than this statement is hardly possible. How deluded is man, that he mainly dwells in those three painful states of consciousness, though there are overwhelmingly more possibilities of happiness! Later, when talking about whether an arahat can be said to experience suffering, there is this from p.111: On this Bhikkhu Nyaa.natiloka remarks in his German translation of the Milinda-Pa~nha: 'The arising of mental pains is conditioned by the constitution of the will of the individual. The mental feeling of pain (sorrow, grief, misery, melancholy, and despair) is always bound up with an impulsion of self-opposition, of resistance, ill-will or hatred (dosa, pa.tigha, vyaapaada) and is therefore in Buddhism looked upon as immoral. How then can one call Buddhism a pessimistic dooctrine when already every is rejected as immoral, and one of the main meditations is that of universal (muditaabhavanaa)? [end quotes] peace, connie #82058 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Thu Jan 31, 2008 9:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Are thoughts vipaka? dcwijeratna Hi Tep, (and Elaine) I'll try to answer your questions to the best of my ability. (1) T: What are the exceptions you can think of? May be the answer is: nothing is due ONLY to kamma. According to Dhamma, kamma is action (doing something by oneself). [See the first two verses of Dhammapada] What it says is if you do evil acts by body, word, or mind, dukkha follows--here dukkha means disagreeable results. Similarly good acts, pleasant agreeable results. But the results that follow cannot be predicted. When you do some action, you can never predict (absolutely and all the time) what result will follow. Take and example, Your name is Tep. Supposing I call you Pet, you are very likely to take it in with good humour. On the other hand, if you were a girl, the situation would be more different. This is why the Buddha exorted us not to think about kamma and its results. Dhammapada again gives a much better example: (Da.ndavagga, verses 9: 12) I'll give you the translation: "He who with rod harms the rodless and harmless, will come to one of these states:- He will be subject to acute pain, disaster, bodily injury, or even grievous sickness, or loss of mind, or oppression by the king, or heavy accusation, or loss of relatives, or destruction of wealth, or ravaging fire that will burn his house. Upon the dissolution of the body such unwise man will be born in hell." Really it is very difficult for us to 'understand' the kamma theory. I'll try, but it may not be clear. According to dhamma life is a continuum that is changing all the time. Something like a wave. What ever now happens affects it for how long in what manner is beyond our comprehension. But this wave has a pecularity. It generates itwown energy. That is kamma. If you stop collecting kamma, then the wave stops. This is my feeble attempt to explain P.S. [This is something, that only an arahant can understand--I am an andha-baala puthujjana.] Kamma is explained in Cullakammavibha.nga and Mahaakammavibha.ga suttas in MN. A very important sutta, a must, is Lo.naphala sutta of AN. [AN 3.110] 2. T: What about killing with the right understanding that there are no beings, no self, no kamma vipaka, because there is no kamma "doer"? DC: There is no killing with right understanding in the Buddha's teaching. It is niyata Micchaadi.t.thi. This is the doctrine of Ajita Kesakambala--[Saama~n~naphala sutta, MN). 3. T: So, if there are factors that we are unaware of, then how may we control our thinking such that we may have only wholesome thoughts most of the time? But if we cannot "control our thinking", then how can we abandon miccha-sankappa and develop samma-sankappa? DC: This question is not within the Dhamma framework. If we are not aware of our motives who else is aware. Better tell it to a jury. I killed so and so but I didn't know why or I was not aware why I did it. Tep, leaving aside jokes, so-called kamma theory is Dependent-arising. And that cannot be understood by mere-worldlings (puthujjana). But the Buddha has explained, in his compassion, how we should behave-The 10 kusala kamma to practice and the 10 akusala kammas to avoid. For the layman this translates to the five precepts. If we keep to it. We have peace and happiness both here and hereafter. With mettaa, D. G. D. C. Wijeratna #82059 From: TGrand458@... Date: Thu Jan 31, 2008 4:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the present moment TGrand458@... Hi Sukin In a message dated 1/31/2008 2:16:19 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, sukinder@... writes: Conventional impermanence, suffering and non-self is not the same as the *characteristics* re: anicca, dukkha and anatta. .................................................................. TG: Thanks for your long thought out comments. I think I understand where you're coming from, I just don't agree with that type of Dhamma interpretation. I don't think you understand where I'm coming from, but that's OK. One big difference in our approach is that I don't know what a "conventional impermanence, suffering, and no-self" would be. In don't believe in the dichotomizing between conventional and absolute realities...especially in the three qualities you mention. I could just imagine the Buddha's mouth drop open if someone in his presence started to talk about "conventional impermanence, suffering, or no-self." LOL Now, as far as conventional speech, dealing with the narrative and stories which amount to mere delusion, I am well aware of that. I think almost everyone in this group is. To keep harping on this point, as if it was the secret hidden knowledge that Nina (and others along that line) had, and that the rest of us are just not "up to speed" with that, shows an almost embarrassing naivete from that quarter. Part 2 ....... Here's an interesting quote from Samyutta Nikaya, Vol. 1, verse 300 ..... "One who desists from sensual perception, Who has overcome the fetter of form, Who has destroyed delight in existence-- He does not sink in the deep." It seems to me, that Nina and those of her persuasion, not only do not desist from sensual perception and form, but generate great efforts to indulge in identifying and holding onto sensual perception and form; by constantly bolstering the paying attention to them (and developing theories about Dhammas) ... and claiming such to be the "aim" of the Buddha's teaching. It is not the aim. Mindfulness is a practice designed to turn the mind away from the so called "realities" that you guys indulge in. I don't downplay mindfulness, mindfulness is of extreme importance; but its just one of many many important factors the Buddha taught to "turn the mind away" from conditionality. The PROCESS of mindfulness is to be aware of conditions, the AIM of mindfulness is to turn the mind away from conditions. Do you folks "get that"? Unlike Nina's claim, The aim of the Buddha's teaching is not to be "watching dhammas." There is no such thing as realities and other states which are not "realities." Whatever arises, arises; whatever does not arise, does not arise, that is all. Arising and altering is based on conditions, that's all. Its not an intrinsic nature of "Dhammas." Its just the nature of nature, that's all. Its the nature of conditionality, that's all. Conditionality is productive of affliction in sentient systems/beings. Therefore, escaping conditionality is the aim...because it entails escaping affliction. TG #82060 From: Dieter Möller Date: Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Stages of VipassanÃ¥paññå [Was James' Article on Personalism] moellerdieter Hi Tep, Howard ... you wrote : (: The individual reality has been - as far as I understand- never been dismissed by the Buddha.. but the misery of the person explained by the conditioning of the D.O. , leading to continous clinging and remaining caught in samsara .) He didn't have to. The Buddha knew the level of understanding (pa~n~na) of the monks. In some suttas all He talked about was kamma, akusala, kusala, siila, samadhi, and how a monk and lay-person should be trained to abandon lobha, dosa, moha. D: you are right, the Buddha taught according to the level of understanding... though I think you agree that in our discussion D.O. is of central importance and necessary background to sort things out.. T: In other suttas all his talk was about the pure dhammas as if the world was empty of beings (See, for example, Suñnna Sutta: Empty, SN 35.85). I think it was the situation when the audience was all ariya-savaka (who had no self-views). When you give a lecture to atomic physicists, your whole talk is all about sub-particles and atomic theories, not Newtonian Physics. D: can you please quote the sutta ? I presume the Buddha talked about the world empty of a self ..not about empty of delusioned beings , for whose suffering the particle world isn't really relevant. T: ( >D:In my opinion Howard' s statement isn't yet clear to that point..) Concerning Howard's statements, I'd better leave the explanation task to Howard himself to do. My experience tells me that the probability of my misunderstanding him is higher than 0.50. But that has been totally my fault. ;-) D:I am/was just discussing the issue with Howard (Hi Howard ;-) ), my point:the person is represented by khanda identification/attachment .. vs: 'The person, in my view..snip ..an integrated (dynamic) assemblage of interrelated phenomena that act in concert." .. which may not exclude eachother ..but further discussion with Howard Tep: When one has penetrated the ariya sacca s/he will no longer have identity views (20 sakkayaditthi) as if the whole world is empty of individuals and beings. D: the Buddha recognized the world full of suffering beings..therefore the Dhamma.. T: Your reply sounds like you do not yet understand "as if the whole world is empty of individuals and beings". D: I take that the 'yet' refers to a view when atomic physicists gather to talk about what is going on in the world of sub-particles and atomic theories ................... T: It is critically important that we establish a "common understanding" about right view of the ariyans who are able to let go of 'attavaadupaadaana'. Period. D: I am open to discuss everything (except nibbana) , but do not like 'period' statements. T: It is fine with me if you want to discuss it without reading 'Survey of Paramattha Dhammas'. Another recommended reading is 'The Three Basic Facts of Existence III. Egolessness (Anatta) Collected essays'. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/various/wheel202.html#thera D: please quote what you like to be discussed . Perhaps we should try to find out first where we disagree . T: To make the garbled text readable please make sure that your Internet Explorer's encoding is set to unicode(UTF-8) as follows. View --> Encoding --> Unicode(UTF-8). D: will try not sure whether it works with my PC .. I prefer another source before talking about A.S.'s survey, because of plenty of terms not yet commonly defined.. with Metta Dieter #82061 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:38 am Subject: Re: Lodewijk's message. Re: processes of citta. nilovg Hi Howard, Op 31-jan-2008, om 17:14 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > What I need are some *facts*. > If there are clear facts that point to this commentarial psychology > being actually present in the Abhidhamma Pitaka and the PTSM > themselves with > different but clearly equivalent terminology & adequate detail, I > will be quite > satisfied. Short of that, I would consider such an assumption to be > merely a > matter of desire. (I would find it pleasant and interesting too, > but that > isn't enough for me to presume that it is the case.) > BTW, if this psychology is found only in the commentaries, that > does not > make it invalid. I personally find it brilliant. -------- Do you have the English of Dhammasangani? I gave the page numbers for you to look up. One has to look up and deeply consider. You seemed in a hurry, because after eight minutes you were back to me with your answer;-)) I was discussing with Lodewijk that we should not mind names so much but really consider the realities they represent. Like the cittas in the process. I am used for a long time to their being designated as mind-element and mind-consciousness element. Also the Visuddhimagga does this. Nothing new to me. I look at the position (thana) of those cittas in the process and that is important. The first one being:sense-door adverting-consciousness before seeing etc. arise. Lodewijk said: he really understands Howard's concern and a few years ago he would have fully agreed with him. But now he sees that it is the reality, not the name that matters and he agrees with me. Nina. #82062 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the present moment nilovg Hi TG. Op 31-jan-2008, om 18:52 heeft TGrand458@... het volgende geschreven: > Unlike > Nina's claim, The aim of the Buddha's teaching is not to be > "watching dhammas." ------- N: You misunderstood. Watching is no good, that promotes the idea of self watching. Dhammas arise because of their own conditions, including sati and pa~n~naa. If we only begin to see this, we are on the right way. Not fascination by the sense objects that appear, but in order to turn away they have to be understood. When? Now, when they appear, not at some other moment. It is the function of pa~n~naa to turn away from them. Nina. #82063 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jan 31, 2008 5:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Lodewijk's message. Re: processes of citta. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 1/31/2008 1:38:43 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Op 31-jan-2008, om 17:14 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > What I need are some *facts*. > If there are clear facts that point to this commentarial psychology > being actually present in the Abhidhamma Pitaka and the PTSM > themselves with > different but clearly equivalent terminology & adequate detail, I > will be quite > satisfied. Short of that, I would consider such an assumption to be > merely a > matter of desire. (I would find it pleasant and interesting too, > but that > isn't enough for me to presume that it is the case.) > BTW, if this psychology is found only in the commentaries, that > does not > make it invalid. I personally find it brilliant. -------- Do you have the English of Dhammasangani? I gave the page numbers for you to look up. One has to look up and deeply consider. You seemed in a hurry, because after eight minutes you were back to me with your answer;-)) ------------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Life is short - must act quickly! ;-)) Yes, I have a copy. The translation is sooooo bad! (But, yes, I have it.) ----------------------------------------------------------- I was discussing with Lodewijk that we should not mind names so much but really consider the realities they represent. Like the cittas in the process. I am used for a long time to their being designated as mind-element and mind-consciousness element. Also the Visuddhimagga does this. Nothing new to me. I look at the position (thana) of those cittas in the process and that is important. The first one being:sense-door adverting-consciousness before seeing etc. arise. Lodewijk said: he really understands Howard's concern and a few years ago he would have fully agreed with him. But now he sees that it is the reality, not the name that matters and he agrees with me. ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I also don't care about the terminology, but the content. It is the equivalence of content that I am questioning. (If I cared about terminology, I'd be one of these people who is in love with 'khandha' talk but hates 'paramattha dhamma' talk. I am NOT one of them. ------------------------------------------------------------ Nina. ================================ With metta, Howard #82064 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: garbled text, Stages of Vipassana. nilovg Dear Dieter and Tep, Op 31-jan-2008, om 19:20 heeft Dieter Möller het volgende geschreven: > T: To make the garbled text readable please make sure that your > Internet Explorer's encoding is set to unicode(UTF-8) as follows. > View --> Encoding --> Unicode(UTF-8). > > D: will try not sure whether it works with my PC .. > I prefer another source before talking about A.S.'s survey, because > of plenty of terms not yet commonly defined.. --------- N: Rob K has several versions on his web, and for quotes I use the small separate ones at the end. These go Ch by Ch and I make a few corrections in the letters. To download in one piece may be more difficult. Dieter, as to difficult terms, just mention them, we may help out. It is not all that bad. Nina. #82065 From: Dieter Möller Date: Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] James' Referenced Article on Personalism moellerdieter Hi Howard, you wrote: 'I used the noun 'individual' in the sense of "indivisible entity". My point is that a person, though spoken of as a unit and erroneously thought of as such, is actually an aggregation of many phenomena. When we speak of a person acting, it is actually the underlying mental activities and arising & ceasing rupas that are acting in concert. A person is improperly called an "in-dividual" (hyphenation intentional), because a person is an integrated collection of phenomena, and not a single phenomenon of its own. D: you mean : person acting is a concert of phenomena without any influence of ' conductor'? In my opinion it is a concert what is received but the (delusioned) person acting is (re) action towards it. I do not assume that we both will agree on a definition .. as long as we have sutta base , no problem.. with Metta Dieter #82066 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Lodewijk's message. Re: processes of citta. nilovg Hi Howard, Op 31-jan-2008, om 19:49 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > The > translation is sooooo bad! (But, yes, I have it.) ------- N: Sarah gave me the transl. by Khine, Burma. I also have the Pali hard cover. Any trouble and I can look it up. Nina. #82067 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 31, 2008 11:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] the present moment nilovg Hi TG, Op 30-jan-2008, om 23:25 heeft TGrand458@... het volgende geschreven: > The cemetery contemplations > are not about being aware of "our own decomposition now" except > conceptually, > in our imaginations. They are about "projecting" and using the > *imagination* > to reason that "our bodies are decomposing now and will become like > that in > the future." -------- N: They can be meditation subjects of jhana, and then the object is a concept. But here, in the satipatthanasutta they are pointers to dhammas that are impermanent. Each part of this sutta is about insight, vipassana. Insight is not thinking about concepts. It cannot be anything else but pertaining to what appears now. Vis. Ch VI, 88: