#83600 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Mar 3, 2008 4:39 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: People are like Tornadoes .. Speculative Views on the Abhidhamm... kenhowardau Hi Ray, There seems to be some confusion here. Originally, you wrote: ----- > > >So it seems to me that what is being asserted here is the truth > about the > > impermanent nature of the aggregates rather than some general > statement > > about wether or not they exist. > > > ----- I didn't agree. I thought it was the ultimate existence of namas and rupas (the aggregates) that was being confirmed in this sutta - not just the ultimate existence of their impermanent (etc) natures. You replied: ---------------- > I think the notion of the form of a person, or a tree, is certainly covered, but I see no reason not to apply it to any arising of form. At least for this Sutta there is no difference made between the mental aggregates and form. This Sutta asserts the same position that "Feeling ...Perception...Volitional formations...Consciousness that is impermanent, suffering, and subject to change: this the wise in the world agree upon as existing, and I too say that it exists." So at least based on this Sutta we cannot say that form is no more or less existent than any other conditioned arising. > ---------------- Let me see if I have got this right: You are saying that all things are ultimately non-existent. That would include not only concepts (people, trees etc) but also the five aggregates (consciousness, perception, feeling, the other mental factors, and materiality). You are saying all that really exists is the three lakhana; anicca dukkha and anatta. OK, I can understand that (even though I disagree with it) but you are also making a point about form being no more (or less) existent than any other conditioned arising. I would certainly agree with that. I believe that conditioned namas and rupas are all absolute realities. But I don't know what I have said to have given the opposite impression. (?) I fear we may have different definitions for the things we are talking about. That might explain the confusion. Or maybe I am just being dense. Can you show me where the confusion lies? Ken H #83601 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon Mar 3, 2008 5:51 pm Subject: Re: People are like Tornadoes .. Speculative Views on the Abhidhamm... rjkjp1 -Dear Ken I can't find Ray's post so I am going on what you and Sarah have provided. In the sutta ruoa (which Bodhi translates as form) is one of the five khandas . It is an absolute reality and cannot be such concepts such as """""form of a person, or > > a > > > tree, or a coffee cup etc., """ which you suggest Robert #83602 From: TGrand458@... Date: Mon Mar 3, 2008 12:55 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] AN 10.60 Girimananda Sutta To Girimananda TGrand458@... Hi Tep In a message dated 3/3/2008 12:48:59 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, tepsastri@... writes: [1] "And what is the perception of inconstancy? There is the case where a monk — having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building — reflects thus: 'Form is inconstant, feeling is inconstant, perception is inconstant, fabrications are inconstant, consciousness is inconstant.' Thus he remains focused on inconstancy with regard to the five aggregates. This, Ananda, is called the perception of inconstancy. Is perception of inconstancy different from the contemplation of impermanence(impermanence(aniccaanupassana) further on what you mean by "direct experience" and "non-direct analysis" in the perception of inconstancy (anicca-sa~n~analysis" in t have no clue whatsoever. ................................................... TG: I'm pretty sure that the term "inconstancy" is TB's chosen term for what most of us translate as "impermanence." Direct experience/knowledge is mindfulness or insight of actual experience as it occurs during the present. I.E., the mind monitors feelings, etc. as they are happening and insight understands certain things (true things hopefully) about the nature of those feelings. What I have called non-direct analysis above is simply normal "conceptual thinking/learning/knowledge." This is just the type of plain old ordinary thinking and knowledge that we would get at public schools, etc. This is not to say there isn't value in this type of knowledge. Here's a quote from Nyanaponika Thera that might help... “Directness of vision is also a chief characteristic of the methodical practice of insight meditation. There it is identified with the direct or experiential knowledge bestowed by meditation, as distinguished from the inferential knowledge obtained by study and reflection. In the meditative development of insight, one’s own physical and mental processes are directly viewed, without the interference of abstract concepts or the filtering screens of emotional evaluation.â€? (Nyanaponika Thera . . . The Vision of Dhamma, pg. 114) TG OUT #83603 From: TGrand458@... Date: Mon Mar 3, 2008 1:03 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Does the citta which has arisen and ceased, exist? TGrand458@... In a message dated 3/3/2008 1:54:58 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, upasaka@... writes: Howard: No, I cannot. That's exactly my point. The "cause" precedes the effect. It is you who seems to want the "cause" to somehow persist and "make contact". ........................... Hi Howard and Alex As I see it, the cause neither precedes the effect, nor does it remain during the effect. But the cause "morphs" into the effect through a process of interaction. As this process is continuous, one cannot in truth pinpoint a static cause and claim a static effect from that cause. But for purposes of edification, we can point to principle causes and effects to understand the basic issues that are important for us. TG #83604 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Mar 3, 2008 6:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism XX, 'Knowledge of What is/is not the Path' lbidd2 Hi Ken, Here are a couple of comments: XX,4: Herein the understanding that occurs by observing the specific characteristics of such and such states, thus, 'materiality (rupa) has the characteristic of being molested (ruppana); feeling has the characteristic of being felt', is called 'full-understanding as the known.' The understanding consisting in insight with the general characteristics as its object that occurs in attributing a general characteristic to those same states in the way beginning 'Materiality is impermanent, [607] feeling is impermanent' is called 'full- understanding as investigating.'(2) The understanding consisting in insight with the characteristic as its object that occurs as the abandoning of the perception of permanence, etc., in those same states is called 'full-understanding as abandoning.' Larry: The shift to understanding general characteristics (impermanence, unsatisfactoriness, and not self) is what is called "comprehension by groups" with inductive insight because they are general rather than particular characteristics. It is interesting that comprehending the general characteristics comes at one stage (full-understanding as investigation) and actually abandoning the wrong perceptions of permanence, pleasurableness, and self occurs at another stage (full-understanding as abandoning). Here are a couple of interesting comments from the footnotes: [Full understanding as investigation*] Tira.na [investigation] could also be rendered by 'judging'. On specific and general characteristics Pm. says: 'Hardness, touching, etc.,as the respective characteristics of earth, contact, etc., which are observable at all three instants [of arising, presence and dissolution], are apprehended by their being established as the respective individual essences of definite materialness. But it is not so with the characteristics of impermanence, and so on. These are apprehended as though they were attributive material instances because they have to be apprehended under the respective headings of dissolution and rise and fall, of oppression, and of insusceptibility to the exercise of mastery' (Pm. 779). See Ch. XXI, note 3. ---------------------- XXI,3: In the commentary to the AAyatana-Vibha'nga we find: "impermanence is obvious, as when a saucer (say) falls and breaks; ... pain is obvious, as when a boil (say) appears in the body; ... the characteristic of not-self is not obvious; ... Whether Perfect Ones arise or do not arise the characteristics of impermanence and pain are made known, but unless there is the arising of a Buddha the characteristic of not-self is not made known'. Again, in the commentary to Majjhima Nikaaya Sutta 22: 'Having been, it is not, therefore it is impermanent; it is impermanent for four reasons, that is, in the sense of the state of rise and fall, of change, of temporariness, and of denying permanence. It is painful on account of the mode of oppression; it is painful for four reasons, that is, in the sense of burning, of being hard to bear, of being the basis for pain, and of opposing pleasure ... It is not-self on account of the mode of insusceptibility to the exercise of power; it is not-self for for reasons, that is, in the sense of voidness, of having no owner-master, of having no Overlord, and of opposing self'. Commenting on this Vis. paragraph [XXI,4], Pm says: ' "When continuity is disrupted" means when continuity is exposed by observing the perpetual otherness of states as they go on occurring in succession. For it is not through the connectedness of states that the characteristic of impermanence becomes apparent to one who rightly observes rise and fall, but rather the characteristic becomes more thoroughly evident through their disconnectedness, as if they were iron darts. 'When the postures are exposed" means when the concealment of the pain that is actually inherent in the postures is exposed. For when pain arises in a posture, the next posture adopted removes the pain, as it were, concealing it. But once it is correctly known how the pain in any posture is shifted by substituting another posture for that one, then the concealment of the pain that is in them is exposed because it has become evident that formations are being incessantly overwhelmed by pain. "Resolution of the compact" is effected by resolving [what appears compact] in this way, "Contact is one, feeling is another" etc., distinguishing each one. "When the resolution of the compact is effected" means that what is compact as a mass and what is compact as a function or as an object has been analysed. For when material and immaterial states have arisen mutually steadying each other, [mentality and materiality, for example,] then, owing to misinterpreting that as a unity, compactness of mass is assumed through failure to subject formations to pressure. And likewise compactness of function is assumed when, although definite differences exist in such and such states' functions, they are taken as one. And likewise compactness of object is assumed when, although differences exist in the ways in which states that take objects make them their objects, those objects are taken as one. But when they are seen after resolving them by means of knowledge into these elements, they disintegrate like froth subjected to compression by the hand. They are mere states (dhamma) occurring due to conditions and void. In this way the characteristic of not-self becomes more evident'. Larry: Iron darts of impermanence, inherent painfulness of all postures, and the froth of apparent wholeness. Vivid metaphores. "Insusceptibility to the exercise of mastery" is your favorite characteristic, "no control". Larry #83605 From: han tun Date: Mon Mar 3, 2008 6:33 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Patthaana (14) hantun1 Dear Friend Tep (Nina), Thank you very much for reminding me. My retentive memory is very poor. Yes, I can now see the present aspect of dhammas (paccuppannaanam dhammaanam) in your quote from the Patisambhidamagga. Jaatam ruupam paccuppannam, tassa nibbatti lakkhanam udayo, viparinaama lakkhanam vayo, anupassanaa ~naanam. < -------------------- > Tena vuccati: paccuppannaanam dhammaanam viparinaamaanupassane pa~n~naa udayabbayaanupassane ~naanam. Thank you very much. Respectfully, Han --- Tep Sastri wrote: > Hi Han and Nina, - > I recalled Patisambhidamagga paragraph #284 in > Treatise I on knowledge is > about paccuppanna dhamma. This ~naana is called > 'udayabbayaanupassane > ~naanam'. > > [Paccuppannaanam dhammaanam viparinaamaanupassane > pa~n~naa udayabbayaanupassane ~naanam.] > > 284. Presently-arisen materiality is born; the > characteristic of its generation > (nibbatti) is rise, the characteristic of its > change(viparinaama) is fall, the > contemplation(anupassanaa) is knowledge(~naana). > Presently-arisen > feelings ... Presently-arisen perception ... > Presently-arisen formations ... > Presently-arisen consciousness is born; the > characteristic of its generation is > rise, the characteristic of its change is fall, the > contemplation is knowledge. > Presently-arisen eye ... [and so on with the > rest of the 201 things up > to] ... Presently-arisen being is born; the > characteristic of its generation is > rise, the characteristic of its change is fall, the > contemplation is knowledge. > Regards, > Tep > === #83606 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Mar 3, 2008 6:41 pm Subject: Re: People are like Tornadoes .. Speculative Views on the Abhidhamm... kenhowardau Hi Robert, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > -Dear Ken > I can't find Ray's post so I am going on what you and Sarah have > provided. In the sutta ruoa (which Bodhi translates as form) is one of > the five khandas . It is an absolute reality and cannot be such concepts > such as """""form of a person, or > > > a > > > > tree, or a coffee cup etc., """ which you suggest > Aha, I thought of that! In the sutta the Buddha lists certain things that, according to his teaching, do not exist. Basically any conditioned dhamma that is permanent (or satisfactory or self) does not exist. So, exactly, what would such a non-existent dhamma be? It's a silly question, isn't it? It couldn't be anything if it didn't exist. At most it could only be a mere concept (person, tree, coffee cup etc). That's why I suggested to Ray that that part of the sutta verified the ultimate non-existence of concepts. I might have gone a bit outside the letter of the sutta, I don't know, but I don't think I went outside the spirit. Ken H #83607 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Mar 3, 2008 6:45 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: the present moment ... What Is Contemplation? scottduncan2 Dear Walter, Thanks for the reply: W: "...As I see it, the task for those who not only espouse determinism (as we both do), but also deny 'freedom' (as you do, but I'm reluctant to do myself) is to explain the at least apparent difference between, say, not wanting to leave the house and being in jail...the incompatibalist determinist must, I think, endeavor to explain why it is that we should feel that we are SOMETIMES morally culpable but other times not....I think the task of those defending incompatibalism is to help us understand the very dissimilar responses to our actions--both our own responses (of guilt, etc.) and the attitudes they're likely to engender in most people around us..." Scott: I'm at sea with all of the philosophy, I'm afraid. Not much use categorising Dhamma in this way. As for 'freedom' (nebulous word that it is), its denial is not the case, at least as far as I'm concerned. It is due only to conditions that Nibbaana is 'glimpsed'; and Nibbaana is freedom. I'd say that any thinking about 'moral culpability' would be suspect. An act arises, let's say in the stream of the worldling, supported by a moment of consciousness rooted either in kusala or akusala. Unless this citta is known by pa~n~naa as being either kusala or akusala, thinking about it alone is likely to be inaccurate. Further, taking 'guilt' as an example, this could be kukucca-cetasika - an akusala dhamma. In Dhammasa"nganii (pp.259-260), this dhamma is described as: "Consciousness of what is lawful in something that is unlawful; consciousness of what is unlawful in something that is lawful; consciousness of what is immoral in something that is moral; consciousness of what is moral in something that is immoral - all this sort of worry, fidgeting, over-scrupulousness, remorse of conscience, mental scarifying - that is what is called worry [kukacca.m]." I don't think notions of 'guilt' in the Dhamma are quite like western notions of guilt. This particular dhamma (kukucca) likely has much to do with 'dissimilar responses', both personal and societal. Sincerely, Scott. #83608 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon Mar 3, 2008 6:47 pm Subject: Re: People are like Tornadoes .. Speculative Views on the Abhidhamm... rjkjp1 Dear Ken Perhaps if you could requote the sutta we could all look at it. If it is the sutta I am thinking of then it essentially says that there are no rupas (ULTIMATE REALITIES) that are permanent, but there are rupas (ULTIMATE REALITIES)that are impermanent. In other words rupas do exist but they are anicca. I do not remember seeing concepts referenced or implied. This is assuming I have the correct sutta in mind. Robert #83609 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Mar 3, 2008 6:48 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: the present moment ... What Is Contemplation? scottduncan2 "...- that is what is called worry [kukucca.m]." Compulsively fixed a typo, Walter. Sincerely, Scott. > #83610 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Mar 3, 2008 7:02 pm Subject: Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : internal & external realities dhammanusara Hi Nina and other friends, - The question for discussion today is based on Section/Item #686 in the online version of the Dhammasangani(Thai). My translation might be getting a little bit better this time(?). http://www.84000.org/tipitaka/pitaka3/v.php?B=34&A=5746&Z=6041 686. What are internal dhammas? All kinds of dhamma that are internal, personal, arising inside a being, specific to a person, upaadhinna ("grasped at") for that being, for instance : form, feeling, perception, formations, consciousness. These sabhava-dhammas are called internal dhammas. T: The "external dhammas" are defined similar to the above, except that they are "internal" to other beings or persons. Question : I am not sure why the first book of the Abhidhamma specifically uses the terms "beings" (satta) and "persons"(puggala), that are the conventional truth as you know it, rather than the language of the ultimate truth? I see this flexible usage of terminolgy as formally allowing two levels of reality rather than taking the ultimate realities as the only kind of reality. Tep === #83611 From: "Alex" Date: Mon Mar 3, 2008 7:16 pm Subject: Re: People are like Tornadoes .. Speculative Views on the Abhidhamm... truth_aerator Dear Robert, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: but there are rupas (ULTIMATE REALITIES)that are impermanent. In other words rupas do exist but they are anicca. > I do not remember seeing concepts referenced or implied. This is > assuming I have the correct sutta in mind. > Robert How can something that is anicca (and dukkha and anatta) be Ultimate Reality? Whats so "Ultimate" about that? By elevating something to the "Ultimate" category may produce clinging of sorts. Everything MUST be viewed as anicca-dukkha-anatta and not be given undue attention. Furthermore in the suttas there is a suggestion that only Nibbana is real, the 5 aggregates (aka Samsara) isn't. That is why Samsara can be "escaped" from. If Samsara was ultimate, then escape would not be possible. -- SN22.95 – Foam : "Form is like a glob of foam; feeling, a bubble; perception, a mirage; fabrications, a banana tree; consciousness, a magic trick -- this has been taught by the Kinsman of the Sun. However you observe them, appropriately examine them, they're empty, void to whoever sees them appropriately. ----- Entrenched in name & form, they conceive that 'This is true.' In whatever terms they conceive it it turns into something other than that, and that's what's false about it: changing, it's deceptive by nature. Undeceptive by nature is Unbinding: that the noble ones know as true. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/snp/snp.3.12.than.html ----- Lots of Metta, Alex #83612 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Mar 3, 2008 7:41 pm Subject: Re: Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : internal & external realities buddhatrue Hi Tep, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > Question : I am not sure why the first book of the Abhidhamma > specifically uses the terms "beings" (satta) and "persons"(puggala), that > are the conventional truth as you know it, rather than the language of the > ultimate truth? > > I see this flexible usage of terminolgy as formally allowing two levels of > reality rather than taking the ultimate realities as the only kind of reality. James: I am very glad that you point this out!! Somehow, I feel vindicated. :-) Metta, James #83613 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Mar 3, 2008 7:46 pm Subject: Re: Abh vs. Yogacara , Continuity of consciousness question buddhatrue Hi Alex, Thank you for the detailed answer! You must have done quite a lot of study of the yogacara teaching. You have given me a lot to consider. Metta, James --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > > Storehouse consciousness > a) Is impermanent (eventually it disappears) also like the 8th Jhanic > plane (which lasts 84,000 MK) it lasts a long time. Impermanence > doesn't have to be instanteneous. Existence in Rupa or Arupa lokas is > impermanent, but it lasts a LONG time. > > > b) Is NOT a self. Actually it is a mistake, ignorance, kamma. > > c) It is like a "place" where Kamma is stored, which is constantly > changing as new kamma is seeded there and used kamma is gone. > Obviously when overturning of Alaya happens, and mind ceases, this > ceases as well. Kinda like when ALL kamma becomes defunct with the > passing of an Arahant. #83614 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon Mar 3, 2008 7:48 pm Subject: Re: People are like Tornadoes .. Speculative Views on the Abhidhamm... rjkjp1 Dear Alex I have limited time and so would prefer to correspond with members who are interested in Theravada pariyatti, rather than members who want to push their own views. Good luck in your studies. Robert #83615 From: han tun Date: Mon Mar 3, 2008 8:09 pm Subject: Perfections Corner (98) hantun1 Dear All, This is the presentation in installment of The Perfections Leading to Enlightenment by Ajahn Sujin Boriharnwanaket; and translated by Nina van Gorkom. http://www.zolag.co.uk/ - Chapter 6: The Perfection of Patience (continuation) We read further on that the Buddha said: “But, monks, this practice of the brahmins is the way of fools, it is the way of infatuation. It conduces not to revulsion, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to full comprehension, to the wisdom, it conduces not to Nibbaana. Now, monks, I too proclaim, in the Ariyan discipline, a practice which leads to prosperity, but it is one which conduces to downright revulsion, dispassion, cessation, to calm, to full comprehension, to the wisdom, to Nibbaana.” Those brahmins used the same wording, “leading to prosperity”, but the meaning is different, and it refers to a different way of practice. We read that the Buddha said: “Herein, monks, the Ariyan disciple has unwavering loyalty to the Buddha... the Dhamma...the Order. He is blessed with the virtues dear to the Ariyans, virtues unbroken, whole, unspotted, untarnished, virtues untainted, which lead to concentration of mind. This, monks, is the practice which leads to downright revulsion, dispassion, cessation, to calm, to full comprehension, to the wisdom, to Nibbaana.” This is a short text, but it deals with the dhammas which are naturally appearing just as they are, at this moment. This is the way leading to dispassion, calm, full comprehension, enlightenment, nibbaana. We read in the Commentary to the “Basket of Conduct” (Miscellaneous Sayings) about the defilements which can arise in the process of developing the perfections. When one is developing the perfection of patience the defilement can arise of “discriminating thoughts of oneself and others.” For some people patience is limited, they have patience only with regard to some people and only sometimes. They compare another person with themselves and this is a condition for impatience. We should know that the defilement of discriminating thoughts of oneself and others hinders the development of patience. We read in the same section of the Commentary that one can be misled by the defilement of craving and that this hinders the development of all the perfections. In the Ovaada-paatimokkha the Buddha exhorted the monks to have patience. There are two kinds of Paatimokkha: the Ovaada-paatimokkha and the Aanaa-paatimokkha . The Ovaada-paatimokkha, the exhortation to the Paatimokkha, is an important principle of teaching or instruction. The Aanaa-paatimokkha are the rules of the Vinaya which are an important foundation to be applied by the monks in their conduct. In the Ovaada-paatimokkha the Buddha taught the significance of the perfection of patience in three stanzas and in addition two more verses. To be continued. Metta, Han #83616 From: han tun Date: Mon Mar 3, 2008 8:59 pm Subject: Patthaana (15) hantun1 Dear All, This is the continuation of (1). Root condition (hetu-paccaya). We had studied three unwholesome roots. We will now continue with the wholesome roots. “Alobha” An extract from A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma. Quote: [Alobha (non-greed) has the characteristic of the mind’s lack of desire for its object (alaggabhaava lakkhanaa), or non-adherence to the object like a drop of water on a lotus leaf. Its function is not to lay hold (apariggaha rasa), and its manifestation is detachment (analliinabhaavupatthaanaa). It should be understood that non-greed is not the mere absence of greed, but the presence of positive virtues such as generosity and renunciation as well.] End Quote. [a-lagga-bhaava = nature of not sticking or non-adhered to. a-pariggaha = not seizing on, non-grasping. na + alliina-bhaava = nature of non-attachment.] [Han: Its proximate cause is not mentioned. Would Nina or someone know what is the proximate cause of alobha?] In SN 55.32 Dutiya Pu~n~naabhisanda Sutta: Streams of Merit (2), the Buddha talked about the four streams of merit, streams of the wholesome, nutriments of happiness. The first stream is the confirmed confidence in the Buddha. The second stream is the confirmed confidence in the Dhamma. The third stream is the confirmed confidence in the Sangha. As regards the fourth stream, the Buddha said: “Again, bhikkhus, a noble disciple dwells at home with a mind devoid of the stain of stinginess, freely generous, open-handed, delighting in relinquishment, one devoted to charity, delighting in giving and sharing. This is the fourth stream of merit.” [translation by Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi] Thus, when we are talking of alobha, we are talking of this fourth stream of merit, which is essentially the devotion to charity and generosity, and the delight in giving and sharing. If we were to expand on daana it would become a separate treatise by itself. Therefore, I would just like to give a link below, for those who are interested, to click on to read “Dana: The Practice of Giving”, Selected essays edited by Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/various/wheel367.html Other roots to be continued. metta, Han Tun #83617 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Mar 3, 2008 11:37 pm Subject: Re: People are like Tornadoes .. Speculative Views on the Abhidhamm... buddhatrue Hi Alex, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > How can something that is anicca (and dukkha and anatta) be Ultimate > Reality? Whats so "Ultimate" about that? > > By elevating something to the "Ultimate" category may produce > clinging of sorts. Everything MUST be viewed as anicca-dukkha- anatta > and not be given undue attention. James: I agree. I don't like the label "Ultimate Reality" and think that perhaps "Highest Sense" is a better way of viewing dhammas. Furthermore in the suttas there is > a suggestion that only Nibbana is real, the 5 aggregates (aka > Samsara) isn't. That is why Samsara can be "escaped" from. If Samsara > was ultimate, then escape would not be possible. James: Here I completely disagree with you. The Buddha never proposed an ontology with nibbana being real while dhammas (the five khandas) being unreal. You quote a sutta out of context to reach this conclusion: > ----- > > Entrenched in name & form, > they conceive that 'This is true.' > In whatever terms they conceive it > it turns into something other than that, > and that's what's false about it: > changing, > it's deceptive by nature. > Undeceptive by nature > is Unbinding: > that the noble ones know > as true. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/snp/snp.3.12.than.html > ----- James: Here is the full quote: See the world, together with its devas, conceiving not-self to be self. Entrenched in name & form, they conceive that 'This is true.' In whatever terms they conceive it it turns into something other than that, and that's what's false about it: changing, it's deceptive by nature. Undeceptive by nature is Unbinding: that the noble ones know as true. They, through breaking through to the truth, free from hunger, are totally unbound. James: All this means is that the world is impermanent and yet people see the world as permanent (and "true"). However, nibbana isn't impermanent so it is what is really "true" or permanent. This is not an ontological position of what is real/unreal, existing/not- existing, this is about a distortion in perception which views the impermanent as permanent. The Buddha goes on to say: What others say is blissful, the noble ones say is stress. What others say is stressful, the noble know as bliss. See the Dhamma, hard to understand! Here those who don't know are confused. For those who are veiled, it's darkness, blindness for those who don't see. But for the good it is blatant, like light for those who see. Though in their very presence, they don't understand it — dumb animals, unadept in the Dhamma. It's not easy for those overcome by passion for becoming, flowing along in the stream of becoming, falling under Mara's sway, to wake up to this Dhamma. Who, apart from the noble, is worthy to wake up to this state? — the state that, through rightly knowing it, they're free from fermentation, totally unbound. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/snp/snp.3.12.than.html > > > Lots of Metta, > > Alex > Metta, James #83618 From: "gazita2002" Date: Tue Mar 4, 2008 12:47 am Subject: ecard from the desert gazita2002 hello all, the desert is a beautiful,harsh place.At first glance it appears vast,empty and uninviting, however once one has walked in the dunes in the early morning lite or late in the evening one sees its beauty. I am approx 1hrs drive from Dubai which is the real scary place. Sooo much development (not the satipatthana type of dev.) and construction - the ancient land being transformed innto an ultra modern city which now has the worlds tallest bldg. Even tho humans have created the city, it appears to me that now the city controls the people. Spent one evening with a Quranic scholar, who is also my daughters teacher. She was interested to know what the Buddha taught and asked specifically about the 'book' from the Buddha. I xplained about the Tripitika and I must admit, I felt a little out of my depth, not having read all of he Tripitika. Khadria (her name)is convinced that Buddha is another prophet from Allah, like Muhommd. Difficult for someone who has very strong eternity belief and overall god belief, to understand that Buddha was self enlightened and was not assisted by a creator. At least 2hrs sped by while we discussed back and forth. What became really clear to me was K's total devotion to Allah and how strong view one way or another, influences 'us' to behave in certain ways. The stronger the view the more xtreme the behaviour, perhaps. Sila is definitly not confined to Buddhism. Islam is strong on sila and dana, and those that kill in the name of Islam are indeed very misguided people, I was told. Our drive back home that nite took a lot longer than 1hr as a very heavy fog descended and it was almost impossible to see the road. luckily for us,and them, no camels were wandering across the road that nite! Patience, courage and good cheer, azita - #83619 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Mar 3, 2008 11:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: People are like Tornadoes .. Speculative Views on the Abhidhamm... upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and Ray) - My impression, Ken, was that Ray was saying that the Buddha in this sutta was zeroing in on the (conditioned) phenomena that actually exist, the impermanent namas and rupas, as opposed to imagined permanent phenomena. (BTW, as an aside, aggregations change; they don't remain the same, precisely because their member phenomena are constantly ceasing and new phenomena arising. Our bodies are constantly changing, for exactly that reason.) In a message dated 3/3/2008 7:39:19 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi Ray, There seems to be some confusion here. Originally, you wrote: ----- > > >So it seems to me that what is being asserted here is the truth > about the > > impermanent nature of the aggregates rather than some general > statement > > about wether or not they exist. > > > ----- I didn't agree. I thought it was the ultimate existence of namas and rupas (the aggregates) that was being confirmed in this sutta - not just the ultimate existence of their impermanent (etc) natures. ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: An aside to both of you and to all on DSG: An aggregate is a collection, not a paramatha dhamma. There are five collections of conditioned dhammas, five aggregates. To speak of "the aggregates" is to speak of those collections, and NOT to speak of namas and rupas, their members. It is poor usage to say "aggregates" when one means "dhammas". There are 5 aggregates, but there are infinitely many dhammas. The dhammas are members of the aggregates, and the aggregates are collections of the dhammas. The blurring of this in speech is sloppy and misleading. The aggregates are knowable only as concepts, and only through the mind door. Their members, however, are knowable independent of conceptualization, and the rupas are knowable through the eye, ear, nose, tongue and body doors. No aggregate is knowable through any of the 5 sense doors. But the rupas, i.e., the members of the rupakkhandha, are so knowable. ------------------------------------------------------ You replied: ---------------- > I think the notion of the form of a person, or a tree, is certainly covered, but I see no reason not to apply it to any arising of form. At least for this Sutta there is no difference made between the mental aggregates and form. This Sutta asserts the same position that "Feeling ...Perception...Volitional formations...Consciousness that is impermanent, suffering, and subject to change: this the wise in the world agree upon as existing, and I too say that it exists." So at least based on this Sutta we cannot say that form is no more or less existent than any other conditioned arising. > ---------------- Let me see if I have got this right: You are saying that all things are ultimately non-existent. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Where did "ultimate nonexistence" get into this, Ken? I don't see Ray as saying this at all. In this sutta, the Buddha was asserting existence (albeit, of course, only the middle-way mode of existence that he saw as real), not nonexistence, let alone "ultimate" nonexistence. (BTW, I think it would be great if we could ban 'ultimate' from our vocabulary for a while! ;-) ------------------------------------------------ That would include not only concepts (people, trees etc) but also the five aggregates (consciousness, perception, feeling, the other mental factors, and materiality). ----------------------------------------------- Howard: There's that terminological misuse! The aggregates are *collections* of dhammas, not dhammas. The rupakkhandha, for example, is no less a concept than the tree in my garden. In fact, it is even less of a unity or singularity than the tree is. ------------------------------------------------- You are saying all that really exists is the three lakhana; anicca dukkha and anatta. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: I didn't understand Ray to be saying that. I understood him to be saying that this sutta was pointing more towards the nature of dhammas than to the matter of their existence. I don't entirely share that interpretation, but that is what I think he was saying. -------------------------------------------------- OK, I can understand that (even though I disagree with it) but you are also making a point about form being no more (or less) existent than any other conditioned arising. ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, yes. The Buddha said exactly that *all* the dhammas, not just the rupas, as they are, namely beset by the tilakkhana, do exist. Again, the relevant paragraph is "Feeling ...Perception...Volitional formations...Consciousness that is impermanent, suffering, and subject to change: this the wise in the world agree upon as existing, and I too say that it exists." ------------------------------------------------------- I would certainly agree with that. I believe that conditioned namas and rupas are all absolute realities. ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: There you go again, Ken. The Buddha said they exist. They're not imaginary. But here you come with "absolute realities". That hardening of contingent, conditioned existence into an existential absolutism is not the middle way ontology of the Dhamma. ----------------------------------------------------- But I don't know what I have said to have given the opposite impression. (?) I fear we may have different definitions for the things we are talking about. That might explain the confusion. Or maybe I am just being dense. Can you show me where the confusion lies? Ken H ============================= With metta, Howard #83620 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Mar 4, 2008 4:40 am Subject: Re: Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : internal & external realities dhammanusara Hi James, - Thank you for joining the Abhidhamma Beginners' corner. > > > Question : I am not sure why the first book of the Abhidhamma > > specifically uses the terms "beings" (satta) and "persons"(puggala), that are the conventional truth as you know it, rather than the language of the ultimate truth? > > > > I see this flexible usage of terminolgy as formally allowing two > levels of > > reality rather than taking the ultimate realities as the only kind > of reality. > > James: I am very glad that you point this out!! Somehow, I feel > vindicated. :-) > > Metta, > James > T: But that good feeling may not last long ! We'll see. Tep == #83621 From: "Walter Horn" Date: Tue Mar 4, 2008 4:46 am Subject: [dsg] Re: the present moment ... What Is Contemplation? walterhorn Dear Scott. Thanks for responding. Though I'm afraid I can't follow most of your post--because much of the terminology is foreign to me--I don't think that's your fault. It would be surprising if each term in contemporary American English mapped perfectly to some term in Pali. I can see that you have studied these matters at length and have an understanding that is not likely to be achieved quickly. I think, however, that there's a difficulty that is glossed over (or perhaps highlighted!) by your post. People are drawn to a religion or philosophy because of concerns about what THEY understand as, for example, death, freedom, moral responsibility, etc. So, if one asks, "Does the Hinayana Buddhist think that we are free, that we live after death, that there is moral responsibility?" it "profits not" to be told "Well the Buddhist concepts of death, freedom, guilt, etc. are different." What I mean is, if the words you are using are actually significantly different, then you're not talking about what I mean by death and the others anyhow, so the use of those concepts couldn't answer my questions, at least they couldn't without additional explanation. That's probably pretty obscure, so lets take guilt for a specific case. You say, "I don't think notions of 'guilt' in the Dhamma are quite like western notions of guilt." I don't doubt that you're correct about that, but, that being the case, novices like me need some kind of map between those concepts from the Dhamma to the stuff we can understand. Without them, we still have no idea whether we should feel what WE mean by 'guilty' if we break a promise in this or that circumstance. I admit the possibility that the languages are simply "radically untranslatable to each other", that the only way to get much sense about ANY part of the Buddhist picture is to get a good sense about ALL of it, but I admit to despairing at the concept of learning the language all at once, like a language student being handed an all-Urdu dictionary and the first day of class and told to absorb the whole thing and the language will be clear. Again, I want to know what people here think the Buddha has to tell us about death, afterlife, right speech, and so on. I'm (naturally, I think) somewhat less interested in what may be believed about concepts that I'm entirely unfamiliar with (without some helpful map between what I know and what I don't). I should note in this context that the two links on unity of consciousness that Han provided me the other day were very helpful in explaining matters in ways that were useful to the Western novice--so I'm encouraged that it may not be not entirely hopeless! Again, please don't take this as a criticism. It's certainly not your job to provide this map for me, and if, as you've said, western philosophy isn't your bag (though I'll bet you're better at it than I am at Buddhist philosophy) others will doubtless be necessary to help us both in our attempts to communicate! All best, Walto #83622 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Mar 3, 2008 11:49 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Does the citta which has arisen and ceased, exist? upasaka_howard Hi, TG - In a message dated 3/3/2008 9:04:43 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@... writes: Hi Howard and Alex As I see it, the cause neither precedes the effect, nor does it remain during the effect. But the cause "morphs" into the effect through a process of interaction. As this process is continuous, one cannot in truth pinpoint a static cause and claim a static effect from that cause. But for purposes of edification, we can point to principle causes and effects to understand the basic issues that are important for us. TG #83623 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Mar 4, 2008 12:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] ecard from the desert upasaka_howard Hi, Azita - What a lovely and interesting post! In a message dated 3/4/2008 3:48:30 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, gazita2002@... writes: hello all, the desert is a beautiful,harsh place.At first glance it appears vast,empty and uninviting, however once one has walked in the dunes in the early morning lite or late in the evening one sees its beauty. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: :-) ---------------------------------------------- I am approx 1hrs drive from Dubai which is the real scary place. Sooo much development (not the satipatthana type of dev.) and construction - the ancient land being transformed innto an ultra modern city which now has the worlds tallest bldg. Even tho humans have created the city, it appears to me that now the city controls the people. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: So interestingly put, Azita! -------------------------------------------- Spent one evening with a Quranic scholar, who is also my daughters teacher. She was interested to know what the Buddha taught and asked specifically about the 'book' from the Buddha. I xplained about the Tripitika and I must admit, I felt a little out of my depth, not having read all of he Tripitika. Khadria (her name)is convinced that Buddha is another prophet from Allah, like Muhommd. Difficult for someone who has very strong eternity belief and overall god belief, to understand that Buddha was self enlightened and was not assisted by a creator. At least 2hrs sped by while we discussed back and forth. What became really clear to me was K's total devotion to Allah and how strong view one way or another, influences 'us' to behave in certain ways. The stronger the view the more xtreme the behaviour, perhaps. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: I think this is a very important lesson for all people to learn. Clinging to beliefs - not merely having them - can be pernicious. ---------------------------------------------- Sila is definitly not confined to Buddhism. Islam is strong on sila and dana, and those that kill in the name of Islam are indeed very misguided people, I was told. --------------------------------------------- Howard: Of course! (Still, wonderful to hear. :-) --------------------------------------------- Our drive back home that nite took a lot longer than 1hr as a very heavy fog descended and it was almost impossible to see the road. luckily for us,and them, no camels were wandering across the road that nite! --------------------------------------------- Howard: I feel you've taken us on the trip with you Azita. Thanks! :-) -------------------------------------------- Patience, courage and good cheer, azita - ========================= With metta, Howard #83624 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Mar 4, 2008 5:08 am Subject: Re: Patthaana (15) .. Absence of Greed .. dhammanusara Dear Han, - Let me be like a straight shooter with two bullets. Question 1: Are the four "streams of merit" identical to the four factors for Stream-entry? > Bhikkhu Bodhi: "Thus, when we are talking of alobha, we are talking of this fourth stream of merit, which is essentially the devotion to charity and generosity, and the delight in giving and sharing". Earlier we were told : "It should be understood that non-greed is not the mere absence of greed, but the presence of positive virtues such as generosity and renunciation as well". Question 2 : Isn't absence of greed too high as a Stream-entry merit? I understand that only the Arahant has absence of greed. Thanks. Tep === #83625 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Mar 4, 2008 5:35 am Subject: Re: Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : internal & external realities scottduncan2 Dear Tep, Nina, and All, Regarding: "686. What are internal dhammas? All kinds of dhamma that are internal, personal, arising inside a being, specific to a person, upaadhinna ("grasped at") for that being, for instance : form, feeling, perception, formations, consciousness. These sabhava-dhammas are called internal dhammas." Dhammasa"nganii (PTS): "[1044] Which are the states that are personal? Those states which, for this or that being, are of the self, self-referable, one's own, individual, the issue of grasping; [in other words] the five khandhas." [Katame dhamma ajjhattaa? Ye dhammaa tesa.m tesa.m sattaana.m ajjhatta.m paccatta.m niyataa paa.tipuggalikaa upaadi.n.naa, ruupa.m, vedanaa, sa~n~naa, sa"nkhaaraa, vi~n~naa.na.m - ime dhamma.m ajjhattaa.] T: "Question : I am not sure why the first book of the Abhidhamma specifically uses the terms "beings" (satta) and "persons"(puggala), that are the conventional truth as you know it, rather than the language of the ultimate truth?" Scott: The answer is that 'personal states' are, in the end, the ulimates - paramattha dhammas: ruupa, vedanaa, sa~n~naa, sa"nkhaaraa, and vi~n~naa.na. T: "I see this flexible usage of terminolgy as formally allowing two levels of reality rather than taking the ultimate realities as the only kind of reality." Scott: Levels of discourse and levels of reality are not the same thing. Sincerely, Scott. #83626 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Mar 4, 2008 5:49 am Subject: Re: ecard from the desert ... Xtreme Behaviour... dhammanusara Dear Azita, - Thank you for the nice story telling. >A: The stronger the view the more xtreme the behaviour, perhaps. T: Yes. I think the following quote explains why it is true. Patisambhidamagga, Treatise on views : 3. What are the eight kinds of standpoints for views? The aggregates are a standpoint for views, ignorance is a standpoint for views, contact ..., perception ..., applied-thought ..., careless attention ..., a bad friend ..., indoctrination by another is a standpoint for views. 6. What are the sixteen kinds of views? They are: (i) (hedonistic) gratification views, (ii) views about self. (iii) wrong view, (iv) views about individuality, (v) views of eternity based on individuality, (vi) views of annihilation based on individuality, (vii) views assuming finiteness, (viii) views about past finiteness, (ix) views about future finiteness, (x) views that fetter [to harm], (xi) views that shackle with the conceit 'I', (xii) views that shackle with the conceit 'mine', (xiii) views associated with self-theories, (xiv) views associated with world-theories, (xv) view of being [as eternity], (xvi) view of non-being [as annihilation] . These are the sixteen kinds of views. Regards, Tep === #83627 From: "Alex" Date: Tue Mar 4, 2008 6:23 am Subject: Re: People are like Tornadoes .. Speculative Views on the Abhidhamm... truth_aerator Dear Robert, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > Dear Alex > I have limited time and so would prefer to correspond with members > who are interested in Theravada pariyatti, rather than members who > want to push their own views. Good luck in your studies. > Robert I am giving you an excellent opportunity to help you understand what you are studying more (and perhaps try to understand myself). Do you know that some people gained Arahatship after teaching Dhamma? So take it not as an attack on you, but as an opportunity to grow. Lots of Metta, Wishing you all the BEST, Alex #83628 From: han tun Date: Tue Mar 4, 2008 6:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (15) .. Absence of Greed .. hantun1 Dear Friend Tep, Thank you very much for joining the discussion. I thought you have deserted me. You can shoot with as many bullets as you wish. --------------------- Question 1: Are the four "streams of merit" identical to the four factors for Stream-entry? Answer: No, it is not identical. "Thus, when we are talking of alobha, we are talking of this fourth stream of merit, which is essentially the devotion to charity and generosity, and the delight in giving and sharing" is my comment, not Bhikkhu Bodhi’s. If there is anything wrong with my comment I would be most happy to be advised. --------------------- Earlier we were told : "It should be understood that non-greed is not the mere absence of greed, but the presence of positive virtues such as generosity and renunciation as well". Question 2 : Isn't absence of greed too high as a Stream-entry merit? I understand that only the Arahant has absence of greed. Answer: "It should be understood that non-greed is not the mere absence of greed, but the presence of positive virtues such as generosity and renunciation as well" is the quote from A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma. Since I am not the author of the quote, I can only give you my personal opinion which may or may not reflect the author’s idea. Here, I think the author just interprets the Pali word “alobha” as absence of greed. The absence of greed must also have different degrees. Arahants will have total absence of lobha. Anaagaami will have absence of kaama lobha or kaama tanhaa. So there will be different degrees. Respectfully, Han #83629 From: "Alex" Date: Tue Mar 4, 2008 6:32 am Subject: Re: People are like Tornadoes .. Speculative Views on the Abhidhamm... truth_aerator Dear James, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Alex, > > James: Here I completely disagree with you. The Buddha never > proposed an ontology with nibbana being real while dhammas (the five khandas) being unreal. You quote a sutta out of context to reach > this conclusion: ---- > > > > Entrenched in name & form, > > they conceive that 'This is true.' > > In whatever terms they conceive it > > it turns into something other than that, > > and that's what's false about it: > > changing, > > it's deceptive by nature. > > Undeceptive by nature > > is Unbinding: > > that the noble ones know > > as true. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/snp/snp.3.12.than.html > > ----- > > James: All this means is that the world is impermanent and yet > people see the world as permanent (and "true"). >>> Not only that, but people ignore the conditionality of everything (including perceptions and views). People through ignorance crave for something and create ontologies based on cravings (make preferences). Theories (views) are based on preferences AND facts. But the facts and cravings are dependently arisen, and thus are impermanent (non substantial in terms of permanence). Khandas are unreal in a sense that they change and are NOT absolute truths (since all 'truths' are dependently arisen and thus can't be termed absolute). --- Lots of Metta, Alex #83630 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Mar 4, 2008 6:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : internal & external realities nilovg Dear Tep and Scott, The Thai link could not be reached this time. Op 4-mrt-2008, om 4:02 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > The "external dhammas" are defined similar to the above, except that > they are "internal" to other beings or persons. > > Question : I am not sure why the first book of the Abhidhamma > specifically uses the terms "beings" (satta) and > "persons"(puggala), that > are the conventional truth as you know it, rather than the language > of the > ultimate truth? > > I see this flexible usage of terminolgy as formally allowing two > levels of > reality rather than taking the ultimate realities as the only kind > of reality. ------ N: As Scott said, two levels of discourse. Good to see the Pali as well: [1044] Which are the states that are personal? Those states which, for this or that being, are of the self, self-referable, one's own, individual, the issue of grasping; [in other words] the five khandhas." [Katame dhamma ajjhattaa? Ye dhammaa tesa.m tesa.m sattaana.m ajjhatta.m paccatta.m niyataa paa.tipuggalikaa upaadi.n.naa, ruupa.m, vedanaa, sa~n~naa, sa"nkhaaraa, vi~n~naa.na.m - ime dhamma.m ajjhattaa.] ----- In the same sentence where beings is used, we find also states, that is dhammas, and the five khandhas. The other person is referred too in order to explain: this heap of khandhas is different from that heap of khandhas. As upaadi.n.naa, grasped, ruupa of the body produced by kamma is called 'grasped at', but it is also used in a wider sense for the five khandhas. Also in the vibhanga, the second book, we find: the bhikkhu, the other person. Nina. #83631 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Mar 4, 2008 6:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] ecard from the desert nilovg Dear Azita, thank you for your interesting e-card. Good that you had a Dhamma discussion. I also had learnt that Islam very much encourages giving to the poor, and that they have good siila. We can learn that kusala is kusala and not limited to Buddhists. Nina. Op 4-mrt-2008, om 9:47 heeft gazita2002 het volgende geschreven: > Spent one evening with a Quranic scholar, who is also my > daughters teacher. She was interested to know what the Buddha taught > and asked specifically about the 'book' from the Buddha. #83632 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Mar 4, 2008 6:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Patthaana (15) nilovg Dear Han, the proximate cause of the three sobhana hetus are not mentioned. Elsewhere it is said that yoniso manaasikara, wise attention, is the proximate cause for all kusala. Nina. Op 4-mrt-2008, om 5:59 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > Its proximate cause is not mentioned. Would Nina > or someone know what is the proximate cause of > alobha?] #83633 From: "Alex" Date: Tue Mar 4, 2008 6:51 am Subject: [dsg] Re: People are like Tornadoes .. Speculative Views on the Abhidhamm... truth_aerator Dear Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > ------------------------------------------------------ > Howard: To speak of "the aggregates" is to speak of those collections, and NOT to speak of namas and rupas, >>>> Nama-Rupa: "Feeling, perception, intention, contact, & attention: This is called name. The four great elements, and the form dependent on the four great elements: This is called form. This name & this form are called name-&-form. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.009.than.html Nama=4 Mental aggregates Rupa= Rupa, Body > The aggregates are knowable only as concepts, and only through the mind door. Their members, however, are knowable independent of conceptualization, >>> To know and to conceptualize are both dependent on consciousness. They both depend on mind. Furthermore, isn't breaking an aggregate into super atoms (dhammas) - conceptualization? Why is, lets say, Rupa-Khanda a concept, while 28 elements not? Lots of Metta, Alex #83634 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Mar 4, 2008 1:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: People are like Tornadoes .. Speculative Views on the Abhidhamm... upasaka_howard Hi, Alex - Why is, lets say, Rupa-Khanda a concept, while 28 elements not? Lots of Metta, Alex ============================= To identify a collection with its members is a mistake - it is a category error, and it is not an instance of clear thinking. With metta, Howard #83635 From: han tun Date: Tue Mar 4, 2008 6:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Patthaana (15) hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much for your clarification. I will touch upon the yoniso manasikaara when I write about amoha. Respectfully, Han --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Han, > the proximate cause of the three sobhana hetus are > not mentioned. > Elsewhere it is said that yoniso manaasikara, wise > attention, is the > proximate cause for all kusala. > Nina. #83636 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Mar 4, 2008 7:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Patthaana, was: Real Experience of Abh. Q. nilovg Hi Alex and Howard, Alex, your question is good. Howard, you said: This is a terse reference given in a sutta. But elsewhere it is elaborated on. We need the Patthaana with the 24 conditions, some of which are conascent, some prenascent, or postnascent. Some of them operating after a longer period. Right? There is no metaphorical talk here. Now to Alex. Op 3-mrt-2008, om 21:43 heeft Alex het volgende geschreven: > > conditioning forces inherent in the states [dhammas] cannot exist > > apart from those states. > >>>> > > A: So what happens when lets say citta accompanied by greed ceases? > Does > all the conditioning of greed passes away with passing away of that > citta so that every moment there is a blank state? ------ > N: The citta falls away but the lobha is accumulated from this > citta to the following one, from life to life, as a latent > tendency. The latent tendency of sensuous desire. Since each citta > is succeeded by a following one, it is possible that good and bad > tendencies are accumulated. Also kamma is accumulated and can > produce a result later on. ------- > A: So what happens to greed when lets say aversive citta arises? Does > the greed disappear, forever - in other words is it erased? ----- N: No, it is accumulated and has conditions to arise again. At the moment of a citta with dosa, lobha does not arise, but it is accumulated in the citta like a microbe that can cause sickness to break out any time when the conditions are favorable. So long as the latent tendencies of lobha, dosa, ignorance etc. are not eradicated they can cause the arising of akusala citta. Latent tendencies themselves do not arise, but they condition the arising of akusala citta. Whatever good you do, or evil you do, it is not lost. Nina. #83637 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Mar 4, 2008 7:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Real Experience of Abhidhamma Questions. nilovg Hi Alex, Op 3-mrt-2008, om 21:28 heeft Alex het volgende geschreven: > So what unites the last citta before Nirodha, and first citta after > Nirodha? The past citta has disappeared, there is no conditioning > force in Nirodha (or between two cittas), and then suddently, a first > citta arise without any Presently existing cause? Past cause is GONE, > non existent in its future (current present)... ------ N: As I said, this is avery special case and it is far above me to understand all of it. The force of contiguity-condition operates anyway and so the accumulations present in the last citta before nirodha are still carried on to the first citta after nirodha. This citta sure arises because of the proper conditions and it is also very special. For the anaagaami the neither-perception-nor non-perception that was the last citta before nirodha, conditions the next one, after nirodha, to be the anaagaami phala citta, thus, lokuttara fruition consciousness. For the arahat: the phalacitta of the arahat. All this is very much over my head, and I do not like to discuss much about it. Nina. #83638 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Mar 4, 2008 2:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Patthaana, was: Real Experience of Abh. Q. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 3/4/2008 10:10:59 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Alex and Howard, Alex, your question is good. Howard, you said: This is a terse reference given in a sutta. But elsewhere it is elaborated on. We need the Patthaana with the 24 conditions, some of which are conascent, some prenascent, or postnascent. Some of them operating after a longer period. Right? There is no metaphorical talk here. ============================= But where have I questioned conditions or conditionality? I have not! I only question hidden, mystical "forces" and "powers" that are not dhammas and are nothing more than the result of substantialist thought excursions. With metta, Howard #83639 From: "Alex" Date: Tue Mar 4, 2008 8:07 am Subject: [dsg] Re: People are like Tornadoes .. Speculative Views on the Abhidhamm... truth_aerator Dear Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > To know and to conceptualize are both dependent on consciousness. > They both depend on mind. Furthermore, isn't breaking an aggregate > into super atoms (dhammas) - conceptualization? > >> Why is, lets say, Rupa-Khanda a concept, while 28 elements not? > > > > ============================= > To identify a collection with its members is a mistake - it is a > category error, and it is not an instance of clear thinking. > The question was slightly different. Why each of the 28 rupa particles not a concept? Lots of Metta, Alex #83640 From: "pannabahulo" Date: Tue Mar 4, 2008 8:20 am Subject: feelings pannabahulo Dear Dhamma Friends, Just an observation I made today.Ajan Sujin always uses the example of "seeing" as being the prime example of conditioned phenomena that we fail to understand. but walking around Chiang Mai today - having many things to do - it was clear to me that feelings/emotions were the primary objects of attention. Perhaps this is because, as monks, we are expected to walk with downcast eyes. So there's not much to catch the attention except bits that you might trip over or walk into.Seeing is just an uninteresting blurr unless one happens to concentrate on one particular object or event. But feelings are really clear whatever is going on around me.And feelings to me seem a lot more complex than seeing. But perhaps I've missed the point again - I'm only just beginning to 'feel my way into this approach to Dhamma.' (pun not intended). Any thoughts or feelings about this one? One humourous episode I would like to share with you all. I had lunch with David and his 18 year old daughter Chandra.(Some of you met them last Saturday).David and I were indulging our gloom and doom bit about the world's political stage. Chandra just chirped up and said, "It's all only cittas and cetasikas." With metta and blessings, Pannabahulo #83641 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Mar 4, 2008 3:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: People are like Tornadoes .. Speculative Views on the Abhidhamm... upasaka_howard Hi, Alex - In a message dated 3/4/2008 11:08:21 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, truth_aerator@... writes: Dear Howard, The question was slightly different. Why each of the 28 rupa particles not a concept? Lots of Metta, Alex ============================= Well, that has nothing to do with what I've been writing about. But, getting to your question: First of all, I don't know what a rupa *particle* is supposed to be. Secondly, I couldn't care less about the alleged number of them. As for a rupa such as an instance of hardness or heat, I experience it in the body, and doing so has nothing to do with thinking. So, instances of hardness and heat are not concepts. There is, of course, thinking about hardness and thinking about heat, but doing so is not experiencing rupas. With metta, Howard #83642 From: "Alex" Date: Tue Mar 4, 2008 9:28 am Subject: Sankharo in Dependent Origination. Kamma or not? truth_aerator Hello all, Sariputta in MN9 has said that Sankhara in DO are: kà yasankhà ro vacãsankhà ro cittasankhà ro http://www.mettanet.org/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima- Nikaya/Majjhima1/009-sammaditthi-p.html "There are these three fabrications: [U]bodily fabrication, verbal fabrication, mental fabrication.[/U] These are called fabrication. [I]"From the origination of ignorance comes the origination of fabrication. From the cessation of ignorance comes the cessation of fabrication. And the way of practice leading to the cessation of fabrication is just this very noble eightfold path: right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration.[/I] http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.009.than.html ----- In MN44 kà yasankhà ro, vacãsankhà ro, cittasankhà roti are defined as: But what are bodily fabrications? What are verbal fabrications? What are mental fabrications?" "In-&-out breaths are bodily fabrications. Directed thought & evaluation are verbal fabrications. Perceptions & feelings are mental fabrications." "But why are in-&-out breaths bodily fabrications? Why are directed thought & evaluation verbal fabrications? Why are perceptions & feelings mental fabrications?" "In-&-out breaths are bodily; these are things tied up with the body. That's why in-&-out breaths are bodily fabrications. Having first directed one's thoughts and made an evaluation, one then breaks out into speech. That's why directed thought & evaluation are verbal fabrications. Perceptions & feelings are mental; these are things tied up with the mind. That's why perceptions & feelings are mental fabrications." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.044.than.html http://www.mettanet.org/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima- Nikaya/Majjhima1/044-culavedalla-p.html --- I've always read that Sankhara (Formation or Fabrication) in Dependent origination was (Bodily, Verbal, Mental Kamma) that conditions (rebirth) consciousness. But in MN9 and MN44 this notion doesn't find support. Furthermore vinnana (#3 in DO formulas) doesn't appear to be rebirth consciousness as it includes 6 classes, not just 1 consciousness. "There are these six classes of consciousness: eye-consciousness, ear- consciousness, nose-consciousness, tongue-consciousness, body- consciousness, intellect-consciousness. This is called consciousness. "From the origination of fabrication comes the origination of consciousness. From the cessation of fabrication comes the cessation of consciousness. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.009.than.html So I wonder how in-out breathing, feeling&perception, vitakka/vicara could condition consciousness and be caused from Ignorance? What are your comments? Lots of Metta, Alex #83643 From: TGrand458@... Date: Tue Mar 4, 2008 4:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Does the citta which has arisen and ceased, exist? TGrand458@... Hi Howard, (Alex) In a message dated 3/4/2008 5:50:24 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, upasaka@... writes: Hi Howard and Alex As I see it, the cause neither precedes the effect, nor does it remain during the effect. But the cause "morphs" into the effect through a process of interaction. As this process is continuous, one cannot in truth pinpoint a static cause and claim a static effect from that cause. But for purposes of edification, we can point to principle causes and effects to understand the basic issues that are important for us. TG In a message dated 3/4/2008 5:50:24 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, upasaka@... writes: I do not share your perspective on this, TG. I see this as a substantialist theory of causality instead of a matter of conditionality. ................................... TG: What's substantialist about it? Since I consider it 'pure conditionality,' maybe you don't understand what I mean. .................................................. For a given dhamma to arise, there may be hundreds of requisite conditions. Which of them "morphs" into that dhamma? ......................................................... TG: Of course. Hundreds, thousands, billions, or uncountable amounts of conditions...all affecting each other, all morphing in accordance with those conditions. Rather than morphing, I prefer "inter-displacing." But "morphing" will do. ........................................................ Buddhist conditionality maintains that multiple conditions are requisite for the arising of "an effect," and, moreover, there are multiple "effects". .................................................... TG: Of course. To think in terms of singular or multiple is just our own concept of the process. But in terms of thinking, I think to stress "multiple" is valid and useful. ................................................. Buddhist conditionality ideals with many-to-many relations, and that precludes the "morphing perspective,ma ..................................................... TG: Not at all. Why would it? There is simply many-to-many relations morphing each other all the time. Here is the "morphing perspective" in simple terms ... You mix blue paint with yellow paint and green paint results. There it is. No big deal. And, it has to be correct because it does happen. Did the blue paint or yellow paint precede the green; as the green paint arose? Nope. The causes of "interacting yellow and blue paint" simultaneously produced the "green paint effect." Before the "interaction," there was no "green paint effect" to consider, so there was no cause for the green paint that had yet arisen. Causes and effects cannot be disassociated in time. Therefore, there is no denoted time element in .... This being, that is. With the arise of this, that arises. This not being, that is not. With the ceasing of this, that ceases. Even kamma, which may take effect many years later...still is "present cause" for whatever effect it will produce ... because the "force of kamma" is still present. And it is that "present force" that produces the effect. If that "present kamma force" is disrupted/extinguished by arahatship, for example, then it will produce no effect...as there is nothing present (no force present) to affect anything. ................................................... which theory of causality, namely that "the effect already exists in the cause," ...................................................... TG: Though you leap to this conclusion, this isn't my theory or anything close to my belief. Causality deals with interaction. Effects are dependant on the structure of present conditions and their dynamic interaction with "other structures" was one of the theories that was extant at the time of the Buddha and that he replaced by this/that conditionality. ............................................... TG: Not only does my understanding of conditionality not contradict "this being, that is"; but rather, it is based on it. You believe I am theorizing. But I believe I am explaining an understanding garnered from observations including direct knowledge. For example, I can be mindful of physical and mental interactions and see it happening in real time. So can you! TG OUT ............................................ #83644 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Mar 4, 2008 10:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Real Experience of Abhidhamma Questions. dhammanusara Dear Nina (and Alex, Han), - Alex asked a tough question again! But he should have known by now that no matter how hard a question he asks, abhidhammikas will somehow find their way out. They are like a special-made doll that always bounces back no matter how it gets pushed. ;-)) > Alex: So what unites the last citta before Nirodha, and first citta after > Nirodha? The past citta has disappeared, there is no conditioning > force in Nirodha (or between two cittas), and then suddently, a first > citta arise without any Presently existing cause? Past cause is GONE, > non existent in its future (current present)... ------ >Nina: The force of contiguity-condition operates anyway and so the accumulations present in the last citta before nirodha are still carried on to the first citta after nirodha. This citta sure arises because of the proper conditions and it is also very special. T: I believe a very good answer to Alex's question is: the "thing" that "unites the last citta before Nirodha, and first citta after Nirodha is the vitality fabrication ( 'aayu sankhara'). This vitality fabrication is explained in MN 43 Mahavedalla Sutta. [Our good friend Han Tun and I reviewed this sutta at SariputtaDhamma. See message #5572 and related ones.] http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SariputtaDhamma/message/5572 9. Vitality-fabrications are the 'intentions to continue living'; emergence from the attainment of the cessation of feeling and perception is discerned with vitality fabrications(aayu sankhara). In the case of a monk who has attained the 'cessation of perception & feeling', his bodily, verbal and mental fabrications have ceased and subsided; but his vitality is not exhausted, his heat has not subsided, and his faculties are exceptionally clear. .................... Tep === #83645 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Mar 4, 2008 10:39 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (15) .. Absence of Greed .. dhammanusara Hi dear Friend Han, - You kindly wrote back: > Dear Friend Tep, > > Thank you very much for joining the discussion. > I thought you have deserted me. > You can shoot with as many bullets as you wish. > T: Who in the whole wide world can desert a good friend like you? > --------------------- > > Question 1: Are the four "streams of merit" identical > to the four factors for Stream-entry? > > Answer: No, it is not identical. > "Thus, when we are talking of alobha, we are talking > of this fourth stream of merit, which is essentially > the devotion to charity and generosity, and the > delight in giving and sharing" is my comment, not > Bhikkhu Bodhi's. If there is anything wrong with my > comment I would be most happy to be advised. > > --------------------- T: I do not see anything wrong, Han. ............. > Question 2 : Isn't absence of greed too high as a > Stream-entry merit? I understand that only the Arahant > has absence of greed. > > Answer: > "It should be understood that non-greed is not the > mere absence of greed, but the presence of positive > virtues such as generosity and renunciation as well" > is the quote from A Comprehensive Manual of > Abhidhamma. > > Since I am not the author of the quote, I can only > give you my personal opinion which may or may not > reflect the author's idea. Here, I think the author > just interprets the Pali word "alobha" as absence of > greed. The absence of greed must also have different > degrees. Arahants will have total absence of lobha. > Anaagaami will have absence of kaama lobha or kaama > tanhaa. So there will be different degrees. > T: I see now that the non-greed explanation above is from CMA (of which Bhikkhu Bodhi is a co-author). The word absence connotes the quality of being absolute to me. For example, a cloth that is absent of colors has to be white (not gray, not slightly pink, etc.). In the same token, a speech which is absent from lies must be truthful. But that is just my opinion. :-) Thanks. Tep === #83646 From: "Alex" Date: Tue Mar 4, 2008 11:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Real Experience of Abhidhamma Questions. truth_aerator Dear Tep, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > T: I believe a very good answer to Alex's question is: the "thing" > that "unites the last citta before Nirodha, and first citta after Nirodha is the vitality fabrication ( 'aayu sankhara').> > 9. Vitality-fabrications are the 'intentions to continue living'; > emergence from the attainment of the cessation of feeling and > perception is discerned with vitality fabrications(aayu sankhara). In > the case of a monk who has attained the 'cessation of perception & > feeling', his bodily, verbal and mental fabrications have ceased and > subsided; but his vitality is not exhausted, his heat has not > subsided, and his faculties are exceptionally clear. > .................... > > Tep > Wow. Thank you Tep. A follow up questions to the above: 1) What exactly is this "vitality fabrication"? 2) Can it exist in between citta states? 3) Is it part of Sankhara-Khanda? 4) Is vitality fabrication present in Arupa Planes? Thank you Tep, Lots of Metta, Alex #83647 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Mar 4, 2008 11:31 am Subject: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 3, no 4. nilovg Dear friends, During the sessions we discussed samatha and vipassanå. Both of them are ways of mental development, bhåvana, and they cannot be developed without sati and paññå, sati-sampajañña. However, the method and aim of samatha and vipassanå are different. We read in the “Discourse on Expunging”(M. I, no 8, Sallekhasutta) that the Buddha said to Cunda: “These, Cunda, are the roots of trees, these are empty places. Meditate, Cunda; do not be slothful; be not remorseful later. This is our instruction to you.” The word “meditate” is the translation from the Pali “jhåyathå”. The term jhåna comes from jhåyati. The Commentary to this sutta, the “Papañcasúdaní”, explains that there are two meanings of jhåna: contemplation on the thirtyeight objects of samatha (aramma.núpanijjhåna), and contemplation on the characteristics (lakkha.núpanijjhåna), beginning with impermanence, with reference to the khandhas, the sense-fields (åyatanas) and so on. The Commentary states: “It is said, develop samatha and vipassanå. Do not be slothful; be not remorseful later.” When someone attains jhåna he can be temporarily free from attachment to sense objects, but defilements cannot be eradicated by jhåna. Only the development of vipassanå leads to the eradication of defilements. When someone develops samatha, sati-sampajañña should realize the difference between kusala citta and akusala citta, and he should realize when akusala citta with attachment arises. Sati-sampajañña is needed and this means, that he should not only have theoretical understanding of kusala and akusala, but that he should be aware right at the moment when attachment arises. He should also be truly motivated to be free from sense objects and to subdue attachment to them. This means that he should lead a life of contentment with little, without any entertainments, without indulging in all the pleasant things of life. If he is not a monk, his life-style should still be similar to the monk’s way of life. The kasinas, disks, are among the meditation subjects of samatha and these can remind us of the goal of samatha. We discussed the Earth Kasina, one of the meditation subjects of samatha. One of the meanings of kasina is “entire” or “whole”. The kasina disk or circle includes all. In the case of the earth kasina, we can be reminded that all we are attached to is just earth. When we are eating, when we go shopping and buy clothes, or when we use table and chair, we are clinging to earth. The element of earth represents solidity, hardness or softness. This element is present in all sense objects. One cannot attain calm by merely looking at a kasina and concentrating on it. There should be right understanding of this mediation subject and of the goal of its development. ***** Nina. #83648 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Mar 4, 2008 11:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Real Experience of Abhidhamma Questions. nilovg Dear Tep, Alex, I remember the sutta you refer to. As I understand, kamma, heat and nutrition keep on producing rupas. His body is not like a corpse. Is that not the meaning of aayusa'nkhaara? Nina. Op 4-mrt-2008, om 19:16 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > but his vitality is not exhausted, his heat has not > subsided, and his faculties are exceptionally clear. #83649 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Mar 4, 2008 7:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Real Experience of Abhidhamma Questions. upasaka_howard Hi, Tep - In a message dated 3/4/2008 1:17:10 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, tepsastri@... writes: Alex asked a tough question again! But he should have known by now that no matter how hard a question he asks, abhidhammikas will somehow find their way out. They are like a special-made doll that always bounces back no matter how it gets pushed. ;-)) =============================== I have to laugh at the irony. ;-) Most U.S. kids have had such a doll - as a large, air-filled rubber figure that can't be knocked over because of a weight at the bottom. But what makes me laugh is that in Japan this is called a Dharuma doll, and it is named after the Indian, Mahayana Buddhist and Ch'an master, Bodhidharma by name, who, as they say, "brought the Dharma to the West." So, in a roundabout way, Tep, you are associating the Abhidhammikas with Mahayana Buddhism! ;-)) With metta, Howard #83650 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Mar 4, 2008 12:29 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Real Experience of Abhidhamma Questions. dhammanusara Hi Howard (Alex), - I like your background knowledge very much (that must come from lots of reading). Thank you for showing me the surprising roundabout association between the Abhidhammaikas and Bodhidharma, the Mahayana Buddhist. The name "Dharuma Doll" is cute. But did Bodhidharma have such "undefeatable" characteristic too? Regards, Tep === #83651 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Mar 4, 2008 7:49 am Subject: Bodies (Re: [dsg] Real Experience of Abhidhamma Questions.) upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Tep and Alex) - In a message dated 3/4/2008 2:54:28 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Dear Tep, Alex, I remember the sutta you refer to. As I understand, kamma, heat and nutrition keep on producing rupas. His body is not like a corpse. Is that not the meaning of aayusa'nkhaara? Nina. ================================ Nina, is his body anything at all? It is concept, isn't it, as you view the matter, and thus not an existent at all? Isn't that the official story that you have come to accept? But how can what does not exist "be" like something (for example a corpse) or unlike something? Seriously, you are talking about a body as though it were something that exists, yet you deny that. If bodies are only concepts ,and concepts can't change, then how is it that a body ages and gets sick, and comes back from sickness? Do the rupas of a body, the hardnesses, the heat, the water element, the eye door, ear door etc - all of these, do they age and get ill and get better? Of course they do not. The body and its various organs do. Nina, are there bodies or are there not? I think that is an appropriate and fair question to ask. I, of course, DO think that bodies exist - as aggregations of phenomena, where an "aggregation" is a dynamic collection of interrelated phenomena and not just a grab-bag. The mode of existence of bodies is certainly more of a dependent/derivative mode of existence than that of paramattha dhammas, but, be that as it may, bodies *do* exist - they are not mere imaginings like selves and unicorns. With metta, Howard #83652 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Mar 4, 2008 7:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Real Experience of Abhidhamma Questions. upasaka_howard Hi, Tep (and Alex) - In a message dated 3/4/2008 3:29:27 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, tepsastri@... writes: The name "Dharuma Doll" is cute. But did Bodhidharma have such "undefeatable" characteristic too? -------------------------------------------------- Howard: That's a good question, Tep. Yes, he is credited with such, because he supposedly engaged in meditation facing a wall for nine years, non-stop (except for obvious necessities). -------------------------------------------------- Regards, Tep ========================= With metta, Howard #83653 From: "Sumane Rathnasuriya" Date: Tue Mar 4, 2008 2:00 pm Subject: Re: ecard from the desert sumane758 Hi Howard (Azita, Nina & All Dhamma friends), Totally endorse your views on Azita's post. Almost nothing to add but wd thank you for further comments on: 1. Khadria (her name)is convinced that Buddha is another prophet from Allah, like Muhommd (*leaving aside K's interpretation thru clinging to Islamic belief - may be alternatively interpreting Allah as Dhamma & Muhammad as another enlightened one*) 2. .. and those that kill *in the name of Islam* are indeed very misguided people, I was told (*again, not confining the killings to jihad -if that was what they discussed- but general taking of lives or "Paanaathipaathaa"*) Also I feel Azita great (& thank her) for if the above were drawn by K in a 2 hr discussion! Meththaa to all! Sumane #83654 From: "matheesha" Date: Tue Mar 4, 2008 2:14 pm Subject: Re: Sankharo in Dependent Origination. Kamma or not? matheesha333 Hi Alex, I have been pondering this issue for a recent dhamma talk. It seems that the Buddha has talked of understanding the DO at various levels of penetration. At the 'simplest' level it can be seen in terms of sankhara=intentions and vinnana x 6. At much deeper levels of penetration there is sankhara as in mind, body and speech and vinnana as in patisandhi vinnana. He talks of accepting the DO 1) at least based on faith 2) through yonisomanasikara 3) direct experience 4) possibly using special abilities such as pubbenivanussatinana (knoweldge of seeing rebirth), in the suttas. I think what is meant by mind/body/speech in this instance is sankhara in the sense of basicly 'everything'. When a person is coming out of deep phalasamapatti, or nirodha one may experience various objects (sankhara) giving rise to vinnana. with metta Matheesha #83655 From: han tun Date: Tue Mar 4, 2008 2:20 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (15) .. Absence of Greed .. hantun1 Dear Friend Tep, > > Han: I thought you have deserted me. > Tep: Who in the whole wide world can desert a good friend like you? Han: Thank you very much, my dear friend. I wish you to be near me, asking me questions and guiding me all along. I do not join you in your discussions at other threads, because the level of discussion is above me, which I often do not understand. --------------------- > Tep: The word absence connotes the quality of being absolute to me. For example, a cloth that is absent of colors has to be white (not gray, not slightly pink, etc.). In the same token, a speech which is absent from lies must be truthful. But that is just my opinion. :-) Han: I respect your opinion, Tep. Yes, the word “absence” can connote the quality of being absolute. But in some cases, the word “remainderless” is used to denote that quality of being absolute; for example, remainderless extinction of tanhaa. I am very happy that you are once again near me. Respectfully, your friend Han #83656 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Mar 4, 2008 9:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ecard from the desert upasaka_howard Hi, Sumane (and Azita & Nina) - In a message dated 3/4/2008 5:00:52 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, sumane.rathnasuriya@... writes: Hi Howard (Azita, Nina & All Dhamma friends), Totally endorse your views on Azita's post. -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: :-) ---------------------------------------------------- Almost nothing to add but wd thank you for further comments on: 1. Khadria (her name)is convinced that Buddha is another prophet from Allah, like Muhommd (*leaving aside K's interpretation thru clinging to Islamic belief - may be alternatively interpreting Allah as Dhamma & Muhammad as another enlightened one*) ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: I haven't much to say on this. Two thoughts come to mind: One is that Islam seems to tend to incorporate respected beings into it - I think of Jesus, for example. The other thought is that the Buddha has, I believe, been taken by Hinduism to be an incarnation of Vishnu. I'm not certain of that, though. Sumane, I'm guessing by your family name that you might be Indian, in which case you might know whether Hinduism has taken the Buddha as an avatar? -------------------------------------------------------- 2. .. and those that kill *in the name of Islam* are indeed very misguided people, I was told (*again, not confining the killings to jihad -if that was what they discussed- but general taking of lives or "Paanaathipaathaa"*) ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Again, I haven't much to add. I'm always pleased to hear of people speaking out against defense of murder and other crimes as being justified by religion, politics, or other dearly supported causes. ------------------------------------------------------- Also I feel Azita great (& thank her) for if the above were drawn by K in a 2 hr discussion! Meththaa to all! Sumane =========================== With metta, Howard #83657 From: "Alex" Date: Tue Mar 4, 2008 2:31 pm Subject: Re: Sankharo in Dependent Origination. Kamma or not? truth_aerator Dear Matheesha, ---In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" wrote: > I have been pondering this issue for a recent dhamma talk. It seems > that the Buddha has talked of understanding the DO at various levels of penetration. >>> Various levels of penetraton of DO are Dhammafollower, Stream Enterer, Once returner, Non, Arahat, Buddha (2 levels). From the suttas it appears to me that different levels of understanding do not refer to technicalities but to the EFFECTS IT HAS on reducing greed/anger/delusion. If you read MN9 it shows MANY views each of each is capable of leading to Arahatship. One of which is that sankhara (#2) in DO is kaya/vaci/citta sankharo and vinnana (#3) in DO is 6 consciousnesses. >>>>>>>> > At much deeper levels of penetration there is sankhara as in mind, > body and speech and vinnana as in patisandhi vinnana. >>> Is there a sutta which says that Vinnana in #3 is patisandhi vinnana? > > I think what is meant by mind/body/speech in this instance is > sankhara in the sense of basicly 'everything'. When a person is > coming out of deep phalasamapatti, or nirodha one may experience > various objects (sankhara) giving rise to vinnana. > > with metta > > Matheesha It is interesting how this may in a way refer to Nirodha Samapatti. One lets go of ignorances well enough to make sankharas cease for a while causing ALL consciousness to temporarily switch off. Lots of metta, Alex #83658 From: "connie" Date: Tue Mar 4, 2008 2:42 pm Subject: Re: Patthaana (15) .. Absence of Greed .. nichiconn Tep! Surely "white", being visible, is "color". Speech might also just be silly (or even conventionally meaningful and "true") and have nothing to do with truth. peace, connie > The word absence connotes the quality of being absolute to me. For example, a cloth that is absent of colors has to be white (not gray, not slightly pink, etc.). In the same token, a speech which is absent from lies must be truthful. #83659 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Mar 4, 2008 2:57 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Vism XX, 'Knowledge of What is/is not the Path' kenhowardau Hi Larry, Thanks for your comments: --------- <. . .> L: > The shift to understanding general characteristics (impermanence, unsatisfactoriness, and not self) is what is called "comprehension by groups" with inductive insight because they are general rather than particular characteristics. --------- That sounds familiar. You were talking about it with Nina recently, weren't you? If I remember correctly, Nina wasn't entirely happy with the translation "inductive." I don't remember much more than that, though. :-( -------------------- L: > It is interesting that comprehending the general characteristics comes at one stage (full-understanding as investigation) and actually abandoning the wrong perceptions of permanence, pleasurableness, and self occurs at another stage (full-understanding as abandoning). Here are a couple of interesting comments from the footnotes: --------------------- I can see there is some good material in those footnotes, Larry, but most of it is too hard to sort out in my poor old head. There seems, for example, to be something there that verifies a point Jon has been making to TG - about sabhava referring to a dhamma's "own" characteristics, not to its "general" characteristics. I need personal tuition on points like these, so I have been making notes ready for my meeting with the dinosaurs in Thailand next month. ----------------------------------- <. . .> L: > Commenting on this Vis. paragraph [XXI,4], Pm says: ' "When continuity is disrupted" means when continuity is exposed by observing the perpetual otherness of states as they go on occurring in succession. For it is not through the connectedness of states that the characteristic of impermanence becomes apparent to one who rightly observes rise and fall, ----------------------------------- There again we see, as Sarah and Nina keep reminding us, these chapters are about purification in someone who has actually attained stages of insight knowledge. -------------------- L quoting Pm: > "but rather the characteristic becomes more thoroughly evident through their disconnectedness, as if they were iron darts. 'When the postures are exposed" means when the concealment of the pain that is actually inherent in the postures is exposed. Larry: > Iron darts of impermanence, inherent painfulness of all postures, and the froth of apparent wholeness. Vivid metaphors. "Insusceptibility to the exercise of mastery" is your favorite characteristic, "no control". ---------------- You can say that again! :-) There is no control, and I wouldn't want it any other way. Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@... wrote: > > Hi Ken, > > Here are a couple of comments: > > XX,4: Herein the understanding that occurs by observing the specific > characteristics of such and such states, thus, 'materiality (rupa) #83660 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Mar 4, 2008 2:57 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Real Experience of Abhidhamma Questions. dhammanusara Hi Nina and Alex (Howard), - I am going to answer your questions as accurately as possible, using the available online suttas. >Nina: I remember the sutta you refer to. As I understand, kamma, heat and nutrition keep on producing rupas. His body is not like a corpse. Is that not the meaning of aayusa'nkhaara? T: The term 'aayusa'nkhaara' (translated by Thanisaro Bhikkhu as "vitality fabrications" ) mean the intention to continue living which has to be made by the ariya savaka before he enters into the nirodha-samapatti. Because of aayusa'nkhaara, then like you said, "kamma, heat and nutrition keep on producing rupas" during the state of nirodha sampatti. With no intention to continue living, parinibbana then follows as in the case of the Buddha. DN 16: 10. And at the Capala shrine the Blessed One thus mindfully and clearly comprehending renounced his will to live on. And upon the Lord's renouncing his will to live on, there came a tremendous earthquake, dreadful and astonishing, and thunder rolled across the heavens. ...................... >Alex: Wow. Thank you Tep. A follow up questions to the above: 1) What exactly is this "vitality fabrication"? 2) Can it exist in between citta states? 3) Is it part of Sankhara-Khanda? 4) Is vitality fabrication present in Arupa Planes? Tep: I do not gurantee that I will be able to "bounce back", after having gone through your sequence of tough questions ! 1) The answer is given above for Nina. 2) I don't know. What I understand, though, is that vitality fabrication is the will that conditions the next citta after the monk is emerging from the cessation of perception & feeling. MN 44 (also, see SN 41.6: Kamabhu Sutta) explains the process: "Now, lady, how does the attainment of the cessation of perception & feeling come about?" "The thought does not occur to a monk as he is attaining the cessation of perception & feeling that 'I am about to attain the cessation of perception & feeling' or that 'I am attaining the cessation of perception & feeling' or that 'I have attained the cessation of perception & feeling.' Instead, the way his mind has previously been developed leads him to that state." "Now, lady, how does emergence from the cessation of perception & feeling come about?" "The thought does not occur to a monk as he is emerging from the cessation of perception & feeling that 'I am about to emerge from the cessation of perception & feeling' or that 'I am emerging from the cessation of perception & feeling' or that 'I have emerged from the cessation of perception & feeling.' Instead, the way his mind has previously been developed leads him to that state." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.044.than.html T: I understand as follows: the mind that "has previously been developed" means the will to live on , i.e. "vitality fabrication" . 3) The 4th aggregate is 'sankhara khandha' and is defined by perception and feeling. So I think this aayu-sankhara is not 'sankhara khandha, since perceptions and feelings have ceased. Perhaps, it is a sankhara dhamma? 4) I do not know, Alex. But if I can guess, I'd say 'No' because it is the will to continue living in the rupa-plane of humans. I hope you both are not disappointed too much. Tep === #83661 From: "Alex" Date: Tue Mar 4, 2008 3:07 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Real Experience of Abhidhamma Questions. truth_aerator Dear Tep, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > >Alex: Wow. Thank you Tep. A follow up questions to the above: > 1) What exactly is this "vitality fabrication"? > 2) Can it exist in between citta states? > 3) Is it part of Sankhara-Khanda? > 4) Is vitality fabrication present in Arupa Planes? > 2) I don't know. What I understand, though, is that vitality fabrication is the will that conditions the next citta after the monk is emerging from the cessation of perception & feeling. > Is this "will" present while one is in Nirodha? If not, then we are in step 1 again (how can process restart by itself). > > T: I understand as follows: the mind that "has previously been > developed" means the will to live on , i.e. "vitality fabrication" . >>> This will to live, is it part of citta? Again, this leads us to the previous problem of causality. > > 3) The 4th aggregate is 'sankhara khandha' and is defined by perception and feeling. So I think this aayu-sankhara is not 'sankhara khandha, since perceptions and feelings have ceased. Perhaps, it is a sankhara dhamma? >>> If it isn't found in 5 aggregates, then is it The 6th Aggregate? > > 4) I do not know, Alex. But if I can guess, I'd say 'No' because it is the will to continue living in the rupa-plane of humans. > > I hope you both are not disappointed too much. > > Tep If this isn't present in Arupa Planes, then what happens to Arupa brahma who enters Nirodha Samapatti? Lots of Metta, Alex #83662 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Mar 4, 2008 3:31 pm Subject: Re: People are like Tornadoes .. Speculative Views on the Abhidhamm... kenhowardau Hi Robert, Tut, tut! Had you been reading DSG over the past month or so (not to mention several preceding years) you would have known that I believed strongly in the ultimate existence of dhammas. It has even been suggested that I believed too strongly - perhaps to the point of being obsessed. (Me? Obsessed?) :-) BTW, there has also been a vague suggestion that you might be on the other side of the argument. It was just a passing reference to the fact that you have one or two of Karaunadasa's articles on your web site. (Guilt by association!) Apparently, Karunadasa is a 'no ultimate existence' man. I don't know if he is or not because I find his writing a bit convoluted. As for the quote from SN22:94 Flowers: I posted the following (cut- and-pasted from one of your old posts, I think): "And what is it, bhikkhus, that the wise in the world agree upon as existing, of which I too say that it exists? Form that is impermanent, suffering, and subject to change: this the wise in the world agree upon as existing, and I too say that it exists. Feeling ...Perception...Volitional formations...Consciousness that is is impermanent, suffering, and subject to change: this the wise in the world agree upon as existing, and I too say that it exists." And Ray added (in message 83660): ------------ > I think that if we look at the paragraph before the one that started this discussion, Alex's point about the truth of the Buddha's teachings around impermanence is supportive. Here it is: "And what is it, bhikkhus, that the wise in the world agree upon as not existing, of which I too say that it does not exist? Form that is permanent, stable, eternal, not subject to change; this the wise in the world agree upon as not existing and I too say that it does not exist. Feeling....Perception....volitional formations.....Consciousness that is permanent, stable, eternal, not subject to change; this the wise in the world agree upon as not existing, of which I too say that it does not exist" Just a reminder of the initial quote..... > "And what is it, bhikkhus, that the wise in the world agree upon as > existing, of which I too say that it exists? Form that is impermanent, suffering, and subject to change: this the wise in the world agree > upon as existing, and I too say that it exists. > Feeling ...Perception...Volitional formations...Consciousness that is > is impermanent, suffering, and subject to change: this the wise in > the world agree upon as existing, and I too say that it exists." So it seems to me that what is being asserted here is the truth about the impermanent nature of the aggregates rather than some general statement about wether or not they exist. > ------------ So there you have it. IMHO, this argument goes way beyond semantics. I think a reluctance to accept the ultimate reality of conditioned dhammas underlies a secret holding-out of hope. Hope for the existence of self. But that's just my opinion. :-) Ken H PS: I would be interested to know why you don't think concepts could be implied in this sutta. #83663 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Mar 4, 2008 3:46 pm Subject: Re: Real Experience of Abhidhamma Questions. dhammanusara Dear Alex, - I can tell that I am now discussing stuffs in your domain of expertise (in which you swim like a fish). Remember the Aesop fables? A mouse and a frog were friends. The mouse was drown at the end of the story, because he had his leg tied to the frog's ... ;-)) >T: 2) I don't know. What I understand, though, is that vitality fabrication is the will that conditions the next citta after the monk is emerging from the cessation of perception & feeling. > A: Is this "will" present while one is in Nirodha? If not, then we are in step 1 again (how can process restart by itself). T: The will does not have to continue to last all the way to nirodha sampatti. I think such a will may arise to set a condition for the future citta to arise at the emerging from nirodha samapatti, and it just passes away. After that the monk enters into the nirodha samapatti .... .............................. A: This will to live, is it part of citta? Again, this leads us to the previous problem of causality. T: No, if you follow my above thinking, the citta that emerges from nirodha samapatti is not the same as the one that conditioned it (through a time-delay dynamic). ................................ >T: But if I can guess, I'd say 'No' because it is the will to continue living in the rupa-plane of humans. A: If this isn't present in Arupa Planes, then what happens to Arupa brahma who enters Nirodha Samapatti? T: In this case then it is the will to continue the Arupa-brahma-bhava prior to the entrance into the nirodha sampatti. Thanks for your "lots of mtta" -- please be kind to me (don't let me get drown ). ;-) Tep === > > >Alex: Wow. Thank you Tep. A follow up questions to the above: > > 1) What exactly is this "vitality fabrication"? > > 2) Can it exist in between citta states? > > 3) Is it part of Sankhara-Khanda? > > 4) Is vitality fabrication present in Arupa Planes? > #83664 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Mar 4, 2008 3:57 pm Subject: Re: Patthaana (15) .. Absence of Greed .. dhammanusara Hi Connie (& Han), - It has been a long time since the last time you wrote. > > Tep: > > The word absence connotes the quality of being absolute to me. For example, a cloth that is absent of colors has to be white (not gray, not slightly pink, etc.). In the same token, a speech which is absent from lies must be truthful. > > Connie: > Tep! > Surely "white", being visible, is "color". Speech might also just be silly (or even conventionally meaningful and "true") and have nothing to do with truth. > peace, > connie > T: I know you must be kidding a little bit, although you are clever enough (like always) to point out a few holes in my argument. But the truth of your argument depends on what you mean by "truth". You know we members here have a big problem understanding simple words like real, reality, existence, self, no self, and truth. Tep === #83665 From: "Raymond Hendrickson" Date: Tue Mar 4, 2008 4:13 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: People are like Tornadoes .. Speculative Views on the Abhidhamm... bitakarma Hi Ken, Howard and the group, Howard thank you very much for your comments. You comments were much clearer than mine and really left little for me to add. I think bringing us back to the topic of the sutta, the aggregates and not paramatha dhammas was very important. In fact I think one of the dangers of this sutta is coming to the conclusion that the aggregates are some type of "ultimate" reality. Surely if the Sutta Pitaka shows anything it is the conditioned nature of the aggregates, and when the conditions for their arising ceases, they cease, be it death or final unbinding. In SN 12.48 the Lokayatika Sutta the Buddha clearly states that there is a third choice between eixtance and non-existance, which is dependent co-arising, the middle way between these two extremes. It would really be interesting to see what pali word is being translated in the Sutta we are talking about as "exist." In the Kaccanagotta Sutta, SN 12-15 the Buddha says this.. "The world, Kaccana, for the most part depends upon a duality - upon the notion of existence and the notion of nonexistence. But for one who sees the origin of the world as it really is with correct wisdom, there is no notion of nonexistence in regard to the world. And for one who sees the cessation of the world as it really is with correct wisdom, there is no notion of existence in regard to the world." Bhikkhu Bodhi's note on the Sutta we are talking about, SN 94 Flowers, says the following "This portion of the Sutta (talking about existence of aggregates) offers an important counterpoint to the message of the Kaccanagotta Sutta (12:15). Here the Buddha emphasizes that he does not reject all ontological propositions, but only those that transcend the bounds of possible experience. While the Kaccanagotta Sutta shows that the "middle teaching" excludes static, substantialist conceptions of existence and nonexistence, the present text shows that the same "middle teaching" can accommodate definite pronouncements about these ontological issues. The affirmation of the existence of the five aggregates, as impermanent processes, serves as a rejoinder to illusionist theories, which hold that the world lacks real being." For me the last line is the critical portion of note :) Ray H #83666 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Mar 4, 2008 4:17 pm Subject: Re: Patthaana (15) .. Absence of Greed .. dhammanusara Dear Friend Han, - I am very happy too that you seem to be much healthier than a few weeks back, when you just returned home from the hospital. Can you now read and type a lot like you used to? BTW Can you live to be 99? ;-) >Han: I wish you to be near me, asking me questions and guiding me all along. T: You are to kind. I don't know how to guide people, I can only ask questions (but my questions may sometimes make people upset), and my ironical remarks may not always be pleasant. But, since you have asked, why not? ;-)) >Han: I respect your opinion, Tep. Yes, the word "absence" can connote the quality of being absolute. But in some cases, the word "remainderless" is used to denote that quality of being absolute; for example, remainderless extinction of tanhaa. T: I like that "yes, but ..." ! Of course, you're right about remainderless being more precise. Warm regards, Tep === #83667 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Mar 4, 2008 4:45 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Real Experience of Abhidhamma Questions. dhammanusara Hi Howard (Alex, Matheesha), - > > The name "Dharuma Doll" is cute. But did Bodhidharma have > such "undefeatable" characteristic too? > -------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > That's a good question, Tep. Yes, he is credited with such, because he supposedly engaged in meditation facing a wall for nine years, non-stop (except for obvious necessities). > -------------------------------------------------- > T: Hmmm... among us probably only Alex and Matheesha are capable of doing that ! Tep === #83668 From: "Raymond Hendrickson" Date: Tue Mar 4, 2008 4:45 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: People are like Tornadoes .. Speculative Views on the Abhidhamm... bitakarma Hi Ken H, you say: > > So there you have it. > > IMHO, this argument goes way beyond semantics. I think a reluctance > to accept the ultimate reality of conditioned dhammas underlies a > secret holding-out of hope. Hope for the existence of self. But > that's just my opinion. :-) > > Ken H > > PS: I would be interested to know why you don't think concepts could > be implied in this sutta. > That is the hammer of Buddhist discussion, saying a position shows a subtle sense, hope for, desire for self. Sort of like a conservative saying an idea is liberal :) I was wondering how you reason that a reluctance to accept the ultimate reality of conditioned dhammas underlies a secret holding out of hope for the existence of self? Also what do you mean by "ultimate" reality of conditioned dhammas? If a dhamma is conditioned, dependent on a condition to arise, then how can it be said to be ultimate? #83669 From: han tun Date: Tue Mar 4, 2008 4:55 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (15) .. Absence of Greed .. hantun1 Dear Friend Tep, > Tep: I am very happy too that you seem to be much healthier than a few weeks back, when you just returned home from the hospital. Can you now read and type a lot like you used to? BTW Can you live to be 99? ;-) Han: Not quite. I am, say, 75 % of my previous constitution. No, I don’t think I will live up to 99. I give myself only a few more years, even that is if my kamma permits. -------------------- > > Han: I wish you to be near me, asking me questions and guiding me all along. > Tep: You are too kind. I don't know how to guide people, I can only ask questions (but my questions may sometimes make people upset), and my ironical remarks may not always be pleasant. But, since you have asked, why not? ;-)) Han: I will never be upset with you because I know your good intention in asking those questions. Respectfully, Han #83670 From: han tun Date: Tue Mar 4, 2008 5:13 pm Subject: Patthaana (16) hantun1 Dear All, This is the continuation of (1). Root condition (hetu-paccaya). We are now studying the wholesome roots. “Adosa” An extract from The Essence of Buddha Abhidhamma by Dr. Mehm Tin Mon. Quote: [Adosa is opposed to dosa and it can overcome dosa. It is not mere absence of hatred or aversion, but is a positive value. Dosa has the characteristic of roughness and cruelty whereas mildness and forgiveness is the chief characteristic of adosa. Dosa is like an enemy whereas adosa is like an agreeable good friend. Adosa is also reflected as goodwill for its nature of kindness and helpfulness. When adosa turns its attention to living beings wishing them to be happy, it is known as mettaa, i.e. loving-kindness.] End Quote. -------------------- An extract from A Comprehensive Manual ofAbhidhamma (with Pali inserts by me). Quote: [Non-hatred (adosa) has the characteristic of lack of ferocity (aca.n.dikatta lakkhanaa), or of non-opposing. Its function is to remove annoyance (aaghaatavinaya rasa), or to remove fever, and its manifestation is agreeableness (somma-bhaava upatthaanaa). Non-hatred comprises such positive virtues as loving-kindness, gentleness, amity, friendliness, etc. When non-hatred appears as the sublime quality of loving-kindness (mettaa) it has the characteristic of promoting the welfare of living beings. Its function is to prefer their welfare. Its manifestation is the removal of ill will. Its proximate cause is seeing beings as loveable. Such loving-kindness must be distinguished from selfish affection, its “near enemy.”] End Quote. [a-ca.n.dikka = non-ferocity. aaghaatavinaya = removal of annoyance. somma-bhaava = nature of pleasing, agreeable.] Han: Please note that the loving-kindness should be distinguished from selfish affection, its “near enemy.” In Abhidhamma books it is mentioned that the “far enemy” of loving kindness is hatred or ill-will (dosa) or aversion (kodha); and its “near enemy” is selfish affection. Selfish affection can have many Pali names, such as (nandi-raaga) delight and lust, or (tanhaa-pema) attachment and affection, or (sineha). I like the word “sineha.” Sineha means (i) viscous, sticky liquid like a glue, or (ii) affection, love, desire, lust. When a husband and a wife love each other there is sineha sticking them together, and one cannot let the other get out of sight. That sticky ingredient is “tanhaa”. But due to any reason, if that sticky ingredient gets dried up and not sticky anymore, one cannot even see the other. This type of love is not loving kindness, but it is the near enemy of loving kindness. There are many degrees of adosa, and in the arahant adosa has reached perfection. If a worldling (puthujjana) has developed a loving kindness, that adosa may not yet be unshakeable, and with a conditioning factor the adosa may be easily turned into dosa. That conditioning factor is selfish affection, and thus it is called the “near enemy” of loving kindness. When I think of nandi-raaga as the near enemy of mettaa or adosa, I remember another sutta where nandi-raaga is considered as the near enemy in a slightly different context. In SN 35.238 Aasiivisopama sutta (The Simile of the Vipers), a man wanting to live and not wanting to die, ran away from the four vipers of fierce heat and deadly venom (representing four great elements of pathavi, aapo, tejo, vaayo). He escaped from them but was followed by the five murderous enemies (representing five aggregates subject to clinging). He escaped from them also. This time, he was followed by a sixth murderer, an intimate companion of him, who was pursuing him with drawn sword, to cut off his head. Towards the end of the sutta, the Buddha explained that the sixth murderer, the intimate companion with drawn sword, is a designation for delight and lust (nandi raaga). Thus, selfish affection or nandi-raaga is like an enemy who is near us all the time, and who can kill us anytime like the intimate companion murderer in SN 35.238, and yet we may not even be aware of it as a near enemy. -------------------- If we were to expand the loving-kindness, it will also become a separate treatise by itself. Therefore, I just want to refer to “The Practice of Loving-Kindness (Metta) As Taught by the Buddha in the Pali Canon”, compiled and translated by Ñanamoli Thera http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nanamoli/wheel007.html The hetu-paccaya to be continued. metta, Han #83671 From: "Alex" Date: Tue Mar 4, 2008 5:32 pm Subject: Re: Real Experience of Abhidhamma Questions. truth_aerator Dear Tep, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > Dear Alex, - > > I can tell that I am now discussing stuffs in your domain of expertise (in which you swim like a fish). Remember the Aesop fables? >>> I don't remember them, or I've never heard them and I am not sure what you are trying to say. As I understand it > > A: Is this "will" present while one is in Nirodha? If not, then we are> in step 1 again (how can process restart by itself). > > T: The will does not have to continue to last all the way to nirodha > sampatti. I think such a will may arise to set a condition for the future citta to arise at the emerging from nirodha samapatti, and it just passes away. After that the monk enters into the nirodha samapatti .... >>> But if this will arises and ceases before Nirodha, doesn't exist during, then how does its effect restart? > .............................. > > A: This will to live, is it part of citta? Again, this leads us to the> previous problem of causality. > > T: No, if you follow my above thinking, the citta that emerges from > nirodha samapatti is not the same as the one that conditioned it (through a time-delay dynamic). > ................................ >>>> If effect is not the same as a cause (or isn't in some way connected to it), then causality is questioned, since then we could say that anything could arise from anything and without any connection. Remember that 6 conscious connections Nirodha for a while. > >T: But if I can guess, I'd say 'No' because it is the will to continue living > in the rupa-plane of humans. >>>> But this will is ultimately Kamma (volition) and it has to be present in citta. But if citta stops, then this will temporarily stop... If we don't assume some sort of 2nd line that doesn't goes Nirodha, then this problem doesn't arise... > A: If this isn't present in Arupa Planes, then what happens to Arupa > brahma who enters Nirodha Samapatti? > > T: In this case then it is the will to continue the Arupa-brahma- bhava prior to the entrance into the nirodha sampatti. >>>> Bhava requires upadana and tanha. During Nirodha Samapatti these aren't present on this occasion, thus they cannot be the immediate causes,.. Furthermore I strongly suspect that these beings don't have much craving during those times, they aren't in Kama Loka after all, and their 5 senses don't exist (or are very attenuated). > Thanks for your "lots of mtta" -- please be kind to me (don't let me get drown ). ;-) > > Tep > === > My keybord jammed, and again, I don't get the joke. Must be Abhidhamma influence... Lots of Metta, Alex #83672 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Mar 4, 2008 5:32 pm Subject: Re: People are like Tornadoes .. Speculative Views on the Abhidhamm... kenhowardau Hi Howard and Ray, ---------- <. . .> H: > My impression, Ken, was that Ray was saying that the Buddha in this sutta was zeroing in on the (conditioned) phenomena that actually exist, the impermanent namas and rupas, as opposed to imagined permanent phenomena. ----------- Oh, I see. That would make sense. And if Ray's interpretation is the correct one then this sutta would not settle our argument either way. However, the fact remains: if the Buddha taught the nature of conditioned phenomena (which of course he did) then the inference must be that these phenomena really exist. (The fact that they depend on each other for their existence does not rule out the fact that they exist.) -------------------- H: > (BTW, as an aside, aggregations change; they don't remain the same, precisely because their member phenomena are constantly ceasing and new phenomena arising. Our bodies are constantly changing, for exactly that reason.) -------------------- It is hard for me to leave that as an aside. :-) I want to say that there is nothing outside the present namas and rupas that changes. Just as [in the ultimate sense] there is no human body that changes, so too there is no way in which the aggregates persist [even in a changing form] over a period of time. ---------------------------- KH: > > I didn't agree. I thought it was the ultimate existence of namas and rupas (the aggregates) that was being confirmed in this sutta - not just the ultimate existence of their impermanent (etc) natures. > > Howard: > An aside to both of you and to all on DSG: An aggregate is a collection, not a paramatha dhamma. There are five collections of conditioned dhammas, five aggregates. ------------------------------ That is a just way of explaining the various ways in which the five khandhas can arise. Vinnana-khandha, for example, can arise in the form of seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching or mentally cognising. Needless to say, this should not be seen as suggesting some other kind of reality in which more than one citta (vinnana- khandha) arises at any one time. ---------------------------------------- H: > To speak of "the aggregates" is to speak of those collections, and NOT to speak of namas and rupas, their members. It is poor usage to say "aggregates" when one means "dhammas". ----------------------------------------- I don't see why. In fact, I think it is very healthy to think of the five khandhas as the presently arisen dhammas. That way, we bring the Buddha's teaching back to the present moment - where it belongs. ----------------------- H: > There are 5 aggregates, but there are infinitely many dhammas. ----------------------- I think you mean it in a different way, but, just for the record: the number of dhammas is limited to 6 cittas and 52 cetasikas. Any one of those cittas can be combined with a selection of cetasikas in one of 89 possible ways. Plus, of course, there are the 26 (or is it 28?) rupas. And one nibbana. ------------------------------ H: > The dhammas are members of the aggregates, and the aggregates are collections of the dhammas. The blurring of this in speech is sloppy and misleading. The aggregates are knowable only as concepts, and only through the mind door. Their members, however, are knowable independent of conceptualization, and the rupas are knowable through the eye, ear, nose, tongue and body doors. No aggregate is knowable through any of the 5 sense doors. But the rupas, i.e., the members of the rupakkhandha, are so knowable. ----------------------------- Very good, we have no disagreement on thenature of the aggregates. So most of my explanation above was superfluous. Except, as I said, it is important to think of the five khandhas as the presently arisen dhammas -not just as a method of classifying all the dhammas that might potentially arise when conditions permit. In the suttas, when the Buddha refers to 'these five khandhas' he is referring to the presently arisen namas and rupas, isn't he? ---------------------------- <. . .> KH to R: > You are saying that all things are ultimately non-existent. > > Howard: > Where did "ultimate nonexistence" get into this, Ken? I don't see Ray as saying this at all. --------------------------- I am sorry if I have confused the issue, but I know a lot of people believe the conditioned world is ultimately non-existent (They believe there is really only Nibbana.) Many others believe there is a conditioned world but they see it as a nebulous sort of thing that cannott be defined in any way. That is, they believe the various "namas" and "rupas" were just theoretical models invented by the Buddha for the purposes of teaching. ----------------------------------------- H: > In this sutta, the Buddha was asserting existence (albeit, of course, only the middle-way mode of existence that he saw as real), not nonexistence, let alone "ultimate" nonexistence. ----------------------------------------- Maybe I am misunderstanding you here, but, in the quote Ray provided, the Buddha did refer to various things that did not exist. -------------------- H: > (BTW, I think it would be great if we could ban 'ultimate' from our vocabulary for a while! ;-) -------------------- You can't be serious! There are always newcomers who don't know the difference between concepts and realities. And there are long-term members like TG who don't accept there *is* a difference between concepts and realities. If we scrapped the use of ultimate (paramattha) we wouldn't know who was talking about what. We wouldn't know if we were Arthur or Martha! ------------------------------------- <. . .> KH: > I would certainly agree with that. I believe that conditioned namas and rupas are all absolute realities. > > Howard: There you go again, Ken. The Buddha said they exist. They're not imaginary. But here you come with "absolute realities". That hardening of contingent, conditioned existence into an existential absolutism is not the middle way ontology of the Dhamma -------------------------------------- I see it differently, but no doubt we will talk more about this some other time. Ken H #83673 From: han tun Date: Tue Mar 4, 2008 5:36 pm Subject: Perfections Corner (99) hantun1 Dear All, This is the presentation in installment of The Perfections Leading to Enlightenment by Ajahn Sujin Boriharnwanaket; and translated by Nina van Gorkom. http://www.zolag.co.uk/ - Chapter 6: The Perfection of Patience (continuation) We read in the “Sublime Story” (Mahaapadaana Sutta, Dialogues of the Buddha II, no. XIV): “Stanza 1: khantii parama.m tapo titikkhaa [1]: forbearing patience is the highest ascetism. Nibbaana.m parama.m vadanti Buddhaa: nibbaana is supreme, the Buddhas say. na hi pabbajito paruupaghaati: he, verily, is not a recluse who harms another. Sama.no hoti para.m vihe.thayanto : nor is he an ascetic who oppresses others. Stanza 2: sabba-paapassaa akarana.m: not performing evil kusalassa upasampadaa: accomplishing what is wholesome, doing all kinds of kusala. sacitta-pariyodapana.m: purification of one’s citta. Eta.m Buddhaanasaasana.m: this is the teaching of the Buddhas. Stanza 3: anupavaado anupaghaato: not insulting, not harming. Paa.timokkhe sa.mvaro: restraint according to the paa.timokkha Matta~n~nutaa ca bhattasmi.m: knowing moderation in food. Panta~nca sayan’ aasana.m : a secluded dwelling adhicitte ca aayogo: endeavour as to higher consciousness (development of calm of citta) eta.m Buddhaanasaasana.m: this is the teaching of the Buddhas.” Note [1] Titikkhaa means endurance. To be continued. metta, Han #83674 From: "Alex" Date: Tue Mar 4, 2008 5:50 pm Subject: He experiences pain and grief that have right view as condition... truth_aerator Hello all, In CMA there in Citta sangaha there are these these strange things... Apparently one cannot experience domanassa while holding right view or similiar wholesome states??! Or one cannot have joyful citta arise on account of killing (aversion) ???!!!! --- Bhikkhus, what is the observance that is pleasant now and brings unpleasant results in the future. Here, a certain one with pleasure destroys living things and experiences pleasantness...With pleasure maintains wrong view and experiences pleasantness. "Bhikkhus, what is the observance that is unpleasant now and brings pleasant results in the future. Here, a certain one with displeasure abstains from destroying living things and on account of it experiences unpleasantness. ...With displeasure maintains right view and on account of it experiences unpleasantness." Sahaapi dukkhena sahaapi domanassena sammaadi.t.thi hoti. sammaadi.t.thipaccayaa ca dukkha.m domanassa.m pa.tisa.mvedeti. http://www.budsas.org/ebud/majjhima/046-mahadhammasamadana-sutta- e1.htm ------ http://www.mettanet.org/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima- Nikaya/Majjhima1/046-mahadhammasamadana-p.html Lots of Metta, Alex #83675 From: "Alex" Date: Tue Mar 4, 2008 5:58 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: People are like Tornadoes .. Speculative Views on the Abhidhamm... truth_aerator Dear Ken, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Raymond Hendrickson" wrote: > > Hi Ken H, you say: > > > > So there you have it. > > > > IMHO, this argument goes way beyond semantics. I think a reluctance > > to accept the ultimate reality of conditioned dhammas underlies a > > secret holding-out of hope. Hope for the existence of self. But > > that's just my opinion. :-) > > > > Ken H > > > Quite the opposite. By putting in Ultimate reality, it gives a self a hope to stand on. Also, by saying that only one citta or sense consciousness happens at a time, gives an opportunity for a singular Self to peak through these processes (like a person looking from a house which has 6 windows). If there were multiple streams happening at a time, then it would be harder to imagine a singular Self. I mean you can't look out from a north window and a south window at !EXACTLY! the same time, but if only ONE window at a time is open, then that gives an opportunity for Self to be there and look out from all the windows sequentially... Furthermore, by destroying ALL bases (Ultimate realities) for Self, that will eventually rot out the delusions of self. However if some backdoor is present... Lots of Metta, Alex #83676 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Mar 4, 2008 6:02 pm Subject: Re: He experiences pain and grief that have right view as condition... scottduncan2 Dear Alex, Regarding: A: "...Apparently one cannot experience domanassa while holding right view or similiar wholesome states??! Or one cannot have joyful citta arise on account of killing (aversion) ???!!!!" Scott: Please cite the page number so that others might read the actual text and not just your very surprised paraphrase. Sincerely, Scott. #83677 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Tue Mar 4, 2008 6:12 pm Subject: Re: People are like Tornadoes .. Speculative Views on the Abhidhamm... rjkjp1 Dear Ken You seem to have completely missed what I was objecting to. If I had time to find my initial post I could show you. What I think you said in a post to Ray was that the sutta when it talked about rupa (of the five khandas) was talking about concepts. I hold that is talking about paramattha dhammas (i.e. ULTIMATE REALITIES). I am certainly not in the side of keci who think the khandhas are not ultimate realities- that is opposed to Theravada and is wrong view. You will have to show me a quote where you think Karunadasa is wrong, I've had his wrtings on my website for 8 years and have cited dozens of times. Robert > > > > > #83678 From: "Alex" Date: Tue Mar 4, 2008 6:14 pm Subject: Re: He experiences pain and grief that have right view as condition... truth_aerator Dear Scott, CMA Apparently hatred citta occurs with displeasure or aversion, prompted or not. chart on pg 35. pg 36 guide to #5. pg39 two hate rooted cittas. One prompted one not. 9 &10 at the bottom of the page. Apperently sense sphere beautiful cittas cannot occurs with pain and grief pg 47 (but only joy and equinimity). Lots of Metta, Alex #83679 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Mar 4, 2008 6:16 pm Subject: Re: He experiences pain and grief that have right view as condition... scottduncan2 Dear Alex, Thanks for: A: "CMA Apparently hatred citta occurs with displeasure or aversion, prompted or not. chart on pg 35. pg 36 guide to #5. pg39 two hate rooted cittas. One prompted one not. 9 &10 at the bottom of the page. Apperently sense sphere beautiful cittas cannot occurs with pain and grief pg 47 (but only joy and equinimity)." Scott: I'll check it out. Sincerely, Scott. #83680 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Mar 4, 2008 1:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Real Experience of Abhidhamma Questions. upasaka_howard Hi, Tep - In a message dated 3/4/2008 7:45:36 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, tepsastri@... writes: > Howard: > That's a good question, Tep. Yes, he is credited with such, because he supposedly engaged in meditation facing a wall for nine years, non-stop (except for obvious necessities). > -------------------------------------------------- > T: Hmmm... among us probably only Alex and Matheesha are capable of doing that ! ------------------------------------------------ ;-)) You're probably right! ========================= With metta Howard #83681 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Mar 4, 2008 1:21 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: People are like Tornadoes .. Speculative Views on the Abhidhamm... upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 3/4/2008 8:33:09 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@... writes: ----------------------- H: > There are 5 aggregates, but there are infinitely many dhammas. ----------------------- I think you mean it in a different way, but, just for the record: the number of dhammas is limited to 6 cittas and 52 cetasikas. ------------------------------------------------- Howard: No, Ken. There are, it is taught, six *types* of cittas and 52 *types* of cetasikas. No to moments of consciousness are the same, Ken. -------------------------------------------------- Any one of those cittas can be combined with a selection of cetasikas in one of 89 possible ways. Plus, of course, there are the 26 (or is it 28?) rupas. And one nibbana. ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Here you are right - there's but one nibbana. ========================== With metta, Howard #83683 From: "Alex" Date: Tue Mar 4, 2008 6:57 pm Subject: Re: He experiences pain and grief that have right view as condition... truth_aerator Dear Scott, Nina and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Scott: Now would you please do the reader the courtesy of formulating > some sort of question regarding the above? It is entirely unclear as > to what you would like to say about this. Thanks. >> 1) Can there be a hate rooted citta accompanied by Joy? 2) Can there be a wisdom (sammaditthi) rooted citta accompanied by dukkha and domanassa? 3) Can there be kusala citta accompanied by by dukkha and domanassa? 4) Can there be akusala citta accompanied by by joy and happiness? Thanks, Lots of Metta, Alex #83684 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Mar 4, 2008 7:21 pm Subject: Re: He experiences pain and grief that have right view as condition... scottduncan2 Dear Alex, A: "1) Can there be a hate rooted citta accompanied by Joy?" 2) Can there be a wisdom (sammaditthi) rooted citta accompanied by dukkha and domanassa? 3) Can there be kusala citta accompanied by by dukkha and domanassa? 4) Can there be akusala citta accompanied by by joy and happiness?" Scott: These are all clearly set out in the text. What are you getting at here exactly? Sincerely, Scott. #83685 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Mar 4, 2008 7:44 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism XX, 'Knowledge of What is/is not the Path' lbidd2 Hi Ken, What really caught my eye in the commentary is the discussion of pain and how it is inherent to all postures. I like to think that I have some understanding of impermanence and anatta, at least as they are manifested in particular dhammas, but I haven't correctly understood dukkha. To perceive dukkha as impermanent or as not self is not really understanding dukkha. Dukkha is pain, bodily or mental. As a mental pain it only arises with hatred (dosa). To understand dukkha correctly one must perceive some form of pain associated with any state, but this perception must condition the arising of dispassion, not sadness. Perceived correctly, impermanence conditions the arising of dispassion, not-self (no control) conditions the arising of dispassion, and dukkha (pain) conditions the arising of dispassion. These three characteristics are everywhere. The only escape from pain is non-arising. Larry #83686 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Mar 4, 2008 9:41 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] AN 10.60 Girimananda Sutta To Girimananda sarahprocter... Hi Matheesha, TG, Tep & all, Good to hear from you Matheesha and thanks for introducing the Girimananda Sutta, TG. I hope you don't mind if I add a few reflections and commentary extracts which anyone's most welcome to ignore:). --- matheesha wrote: > ....I think it is safe to use > contemplation, especially after becoming a sotapanna/seeing thigs as > it really is, because then the contemplation will be based on truths > not speculation, as might be the case with the Girimananda sutta. .... S:Is it "speculation" that is being discussed in the Girimananda sutta? I don't think so. I think the 10 kinds of 'contemplation' all refer to sa~n~naa(perception) accompnaying highly developed right understanding/insight. Referring to B.Bodhi's translation (Numerical Discourses, AN 10s, 60), we read that the 10 perceptions are: (1) The perception of impermanence[aniccasa~n~naa], (2) the perception of non-self[anattasa~n~naa], (3) the perception of foulnessasubhasa~n~naa], (4) the perception of danger[aadiinavasa~n~naa], (5) the perception of abandoning[pahaanasa~n~naa], (6) the perception of dispassion[viraagasa~n~naa], (7) the perception of cessation[nirodhasa~n~naa], (8) the perception of disenchantment with the whole world[sabbaloke-anabhiratasa~n~naa], (9) the perception of impermanence in all formations[sabbasa"nkharesu-aniccasa~n~naa], (10) mindfulness of breathing[aanaapaanasati]. Under the first contemplation/perception of impermanence, it says in the sutta (Bodhi transl): " 'Form is impermanent, feeling is impermanent, perception is impermanent, volitional formations are impermanent, consciousness is impermanent.' Thus he dwells contemplating impermanence in these five aggregates subject to clinging.[Iti imesu pa~ncasupaadaanakkhandhesu aniccaanupassii viharati] This is called the perception of impermanence [aniccasa~n~naa]." S: As I understand, aniccaanupassii (the contemplation of impermanence) refers to vipassanaa (insight). Through such insight, the perception of permanence is abandoned. The commentary (translated by ~Naanamoli in a Wheel) elaborates: Contemplation of impermanence is the contemplation (perception) of impermanence in the five aggregates which grasps rise and fall and alteration in them. "Rise" is their characteristic of being produced, "fall" is their characteristic of changing, "alteration" is ageing. For the characteristic of impermanence is seen by grasping rise and fall and alteration; and the five aggregates are called impermanent because of their arising and falling and altering. "Again, the characteristic of impermanence is that, owing to the presence of which in the five aggregates, they are called impermanent; for it is owing to it that they are characterised as impermanent. And the characteristic of impermanence fails to be apparent because it is concealed by continuity owing to rise and fall not being kept in mind, but when continuity is disrupted by grasping rise and fall, then the characteristic of impermanence becomes apparent in its true nature. "For when one is correctly observing rise and fall, and continuity has been exposed by observing the separateness of states, which occur in succession, then the characteristic of impermanence does not become apparent to him through the connectedness of states, but rather it becomes fully evident through their disconnectedness, as though they were iron darts." ***** S: So the insight referred to in the sutta is that which understands the rise and fall of the various namas and rupas, the 5 khandhas, "as though they were iron darts". It is only at the fourth stage of insight (vipassanaa ~naana), i.e. udayabbaya ~naa.na, that pa~n~naa clearly penetrates the arising and falling away of such dhammas. There is no more idea of a connected 'whole' or of states lasting. The commentary continues: "Contemplation of suffering is implied, too, because the various aspects of the foul (no 3.) come under the characteristic of suffering, because the various aspects of danger (no. 4) are a cause of suffering, and because of the words, "what is impermanent is painful" (SN xxxv,4). So the aspect of perpetual oppression is the characteristic of suffering. The fact that formations are unceasingly oppressed and afflicted by the rise and fall already grasped is what is called "oppression." And the characteristic of suffering fails to be apparent because it is concealed by the succession of postures owing to perpetual oppression not being kept in mind." **** S: Because of a lack of direct understanding of the khandhas as impermanent, we take a body and postures to exist and fail to see the 'perpetual oppression', aspects of foul and danger of the rupas and other dhammas, arising and falling away as we speak. *** The commentary continues: "But when the hiddenness of the suffering encountered in the postures is exposed by becoming aware of perpetual oppression, then the characteristic of suffering becomes apparent in its true nature. And it is owing to not keeping perpetual oppression in mind that the postures are able to conceal it. For when pain arises in one posture the next posture adopted shifts the pain, concealing it, as it were. And so from one posture to another. But once it is correctly known how the pain in each posture is shifted by changing that posture for another, then their concealment of the pain is exposed; because it has become evident that formations are all the time being overwhelmed by suffering.. that is why suffering becomes apparent in its true nature, once the ability, encountered in the postures, to conceal pain is destroyed by one's becoming aware of perpetual oppression." ***** S: By directly understanding the khandhas as 'the all' and later the arising and falling away and oppression of these dhammas, the true nature of dukkha becomes apparent. No more atta-sa~n~naa or idea of postures or anything else covering up the true natue of khandas as being 'perpetually oppressed'. .... In case there is still doubt about whether such contemplations/perceptions/insights really refer to direct understanding, by the time we get to (6) the perception of dispassion[viraagasa~n~naa], the commentary elaborates: (6) "In the description of the contemplation of the fading away, this FADING AWAY (viraaga) is nibbana, for, on coming to that, greed (raaga) etc. fade away (virajjanti). The contemplation makes that its object. And here it is the element of complete extinction with the fundamental five aggregates remaining that is meant, because the words "fading away of greed" point to the complete extinction of defilements. "he said 'This is peaceful, this is sublime', indication nibbana; for nibbana is peaceful because of the pacification of the defilements." This certainly doesn't sound like any kind of speculation! ***** Metta, Sarah ======== #83687 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Mar 4, 2008 10:19 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] AN 10.60 Girimananda Sutta To Girimananda sarahprocter... Dear Scott (Alex & all), While I have the Girimananda Sutta and its commentary translation in front of me, let me also type the next section on anattasa~n~na (perception of non-self) as it's relevant to a recent discussion you, Alex and I were having on atta-sa~n~na, the lack of 'resolving the compact', the lack of understanding of dhammas as elements. It's a further elaboration of the quote I referred to in Sammohavinodanii (#83487) First, from the sutta (Bodhi transl. AN: 10s,60, Numerical Discourses, 10s, 196 'Girimaananda'): "(2)"And what, Aananda, is the perception of non-self? Here, Aananda, having gone to the forest, to the foot of a tree or to an empty hut, a monk reflects thus: 'The eye is non-self, forms are non-self; the ear is non-self, sounds are non-self; the nose is non-self. odours are non-self; the tongue is non-self, tastes are non-self; the body is non-self. tactile objects are non-self; the mind is non-self; mind-objects are non-self.' Thus he dwells contemplating non-self in these six internal and external sense bases. This is called the perception of non-self. [Iti imesu chasu ajjhattika baahiresu aayatanesu anattaanupassii viharati. Aya.m vucataananda anattasa~n~naa] **** Commentary (~Naanamoli transl, Giramananda Sutta, Wheel 177): " (ii) 'Contemplation of No Self' is the contemplation (perception) of no-self, which grasps the characteristic of no-self, called insusceptibility of mastery, in the five aggregates. These are shown in the form of the bases[S: aayatanas], and they are suffering in the sense of oppression. But the characteristic of no-self fails to be apparent because it is concealed by compactness owing to resolution of compactness not being kept in mind. But the resolution of compactness is effected by resolving it into its various elements and distinguishing each one thus: The earth (solidity) element is one, the water (cohesion) element is another, and so on; by recognising that there is compactness as a mass, compactness as a function, and compactness as an object. "When this has been done, the characteristic of no-self becomes apparent in its true nature.. But when material and immaterial states (states of mind and matter) have arisen mutually supporting each other, their compactness as a mass is assumed through failure to subject formations to compression owing to belief in their unity. And likewise compactness of function is assumed when, although differences in the functions of such states exist, they are taken as one. "And likewise compactness of object is assumed when, although differences in the ways in which states that have objects make them their objects exist, they are taken as one. But when these compactnesses have been resolved by means of knowledge into their elements, they are seen to disintegrate, like foam subjected to pressure by the hand. They are mere phenomena that occur due to conditions, and are void. Thus it is that the characteristic of no-self becomes fully evident." **** S: What I understand is that unless the characteristics of elements are known distinctly, they are bound to be 'taken as one', as a 'whole' and there is bound to be atta-sa~n~naa at such times. I'll look forward to any further discussion on these passages.. Metta, Sarah ======= #83688 From: "colette" Date: Tue Mar 4, 2008 10:25 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] "Capital Idea" Gomez Adams ksheri3 Hi Howard, I take your response with a grain of sand and trust that it's well intentioned thus I gloss over the negative. The negative is like the fluff they put in newspapers or magazines just to keep the reader reading, there's not much substance if the reader isn't strictly seeking the negative to use as a means. I am not doing that nor do I enjoy that path, that form of operation. > What is this continual repetition of yours to be being appologetic? I > mean it seems that you're sorry that anything in the past has existed > or transpired. > ------------------------------------------------------------> Howard: > If I believe I have acted improperly and have hurt someone, the result > is that I regret it, I want to try to remove some of the hurt, and I > apologize. It is an attempt to make up for causing harm. Should I apologize for > *that*? ;-) colette: lets look at the world as it is, which is what the Suttas and the Abhidharma do. I'd like to apply Nargarjuna but you have trouble with his workings so I'll fall back on the trusty Theravadan technique. "You can please some of the people some of the time but you can't pleas all the people all the time" or some of the time, for that matter. This axiom applied THEN I am lead to believe that no matter what I say there will always be an individual offended by it or by my speach. I've been doing A LOT OF PONDERING, lately, in fact I have been shown some fundamental structural concepts of Buddhism, recently, and am simply astonished by the complete grasp and understanding that the Buddhist path sets forth. For instance I have always feared the physical effects of drugs and/or alcohol. Since, at one time I actually witnessed the effects of alcoholism through Polish immigrants where I analysed the hell out of the situation. Last weekend I was shown some people that were completely drunk and as I observed their behavior I found that the physical effects of the alcohol are a meer pitance to the psychological effects where I began pondering the actuality of this DESIRE or need to drink and become incoherent as being INTERNAL or is the DESIRE EXTERNAL where I found it is both APPLYING RELATIVE TRUTH ONLY. Now I have to, after properly grasping this cognition of reality, I have to go back and actually recall all the experiences in bars that I've had since like 1997, and reformat, reconsider, re-evaluate, EVERYTHING USING THIS NEW CONTEXT. BTW, the USN, placed on my discharge papers, Honorable Discharge, the de-briefing I had to go through as a Communications & Intelligence Specialist, they put something to the effect that "don't tell this person anything, they'll remember it and raise the issues", thus I have a pretty good memory when I go deep into meditation. When you use the function of appoligizing of what you speak as potentially offending another person then you have no reason to speak since you surely must be cognizant that you will offend another person. <....> I wouldn't dare to disrepect any fellow travelor since that person might save my life at some point, eventhough I've noticed that over the past few months I've been getting a lot of interesting material specifically designated as part of the Lion's Roar Technique. -------------------------------------------------- > BTW, are you taking up psychoanalysis these days? LOL! colette: drug dealers are all the same, I mean pharmecutical reps. for drug cartels, oooops pharmecutical corporations, multi-national corporations. I am certainly in the Zurich school of psycho-analisis, C.G.Jung, not in <....>FREUD or is that FRAUD, and his Vienne school. Ever hear of Rudolph Steiner or Leadbetter, both Theosophists? > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > can I have a ruling here: Is it appropriate to bring in the concept > of "going", "the goer" and "the gone"? > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Huh? colette: the goer and going are part of the first section of Nargarjuna's work and turn out to be a major part that vindicates a lot of the other sections. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > > > To answer my own question to you Howard I'll suggest that your > concept of the past is completely dependent on CLINGING which sets up > this entire script for Dependent Origination. > --------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > You wouldn't have any clue in that regard, Colette. colette: Wouldn't I? THIS IS A BAITED POST, HIGHLY BOOBY-TRAPPED. --------------------------------- For the record, I > would prefer not being second guessed and undergoing remote analysis. I don't > presume to know your motivations and the bases for your actions. I'd > appreciate it if you would accord me the same respect. colette: I give you nothing but the respect you deserve for accepting me as an individual and trying to learn the Buddhist path and techniques. I also give you the respect that your motivation may not be as pure and selfless as mine and that you will attempt to maintain a grasp and control of something that is not your property and is not exclusively your possession which only you can interpret and only you can DICTATE. <...> You closed somewhat nicely so I shall advice you that maybe your search for calm and peace of mind can be found in the "Chaos Matrix" or "Chaos Magic" where you should seek Austin Osman Spare and his CERMON OF THE HYPOCRITE. Thanx for your opinion and conversation. I look forward to better discussions on Madhyamika and such. tooldes, colette #83689 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Mar 5, 2008 12:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism XX, 'Knowledge of What is/is not the Path' nilovg Dear Ken H and Larry, I appreciate all the work you did, text, footnotes, and especially the dialogue. That helps, since it is rather a lot of material. Op 4-mrt-2008, om 23:57 heeft kenhowardau het volgende geschreven: > There seems, > for example, to be something there that verifies a point Jon has been > making to TG - about sabhava referring to a dhamma's "own" > characteristics, not to its "general" characteristics. > > I need personal tuition on points like these, so I have been making > notes ready for my meeting with the dinosaurs in Thailand next month. ------ N: Good, it is always useful to speak about characteristics. When we are learning to be aware of these when they appear, only then will we understand what sabhava is. Not merely by speculating and thinking about them. So, we can ask ourselves, is there a characteristic at this moment? Ken, you always hit the right points. > > ----------------------------------- > <. . .> > L: > Commenting on this Vis. paragraph [XXI,4], Pm says: ' "When > continuity is disrupted" means when continuity is exposed by > observing the perpetual otherness of states as they go on occurring > in succession. For it is not through the connectedness of states that > the characteristic of impermanence becomes apparent to one who > rightly observes rise and fall, ... > > -------------------- > L quoting Pm: > "but rather the characteristic becomes more > thoroughly evident through their disconnectedness, as if they were > iron darts. 'When the postures are exposed" means when the > concealment of the pain that is actually inherent in the postures is > exposed. > -------- N: Here is the so called 'posture pain' , often discussed. The passage is difficult and one may misunderstand it, trying to catch dukkha or thinking of changing postures. As I understood it, when there is right awareness and understanding one learns that there is not the whole of a posture. The text speaks about disconnectedness. When there is connectedness there is a whole, the whole body that is sitting. Don't we mostly think of my body that is sitting, standing, walking lying down? That is why we find all those reminders in the satipatthana sutta under mindfulness of the body. See the following: the froth of apparent wholeness. Very important. -------- > Larry: > Iron darts of impermanence, inherent painfulness of all > postures, and the froth of apparent wholeness. Vivid > metaphors. "Insusceptibility to the exercise of mastery" is your > favorite characteristic, "no control". ----- Nina. #83690 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Mar 5, 2008 12:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism XX, 'Knowledge of What is/is not the Path' nilovg Hi Larry, Op 5-mrt-2008, om 4:44 heeft LBIDD@... het volgende geschreven: > Dukkha is pain, bodily or mental. ------ N: The meaning of dukkha is wider than that: dukkha dukkha, obvious bodily and mental pain. viparinaama dukkha: dukkha in change, pleasant feeling does not last, very soon there is unhappy feeling. Sa"nkhaara dukkha: dukkha inherent in all conditioned dhammas. This is harder to understand. It is actually the fact that conditioned dhammas fall away, that they are no refuge. Nina. #83691 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Mar 5, 2008 12:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] AN 10.60 Girimananda Sutta To Girimananda nilovg Dear Sarah, Ken H, Larry, This is very good material and helps to understand what we are just discussing in Vis. XX, about posture pain, about dukkha, what dukkha is. Nina. Op 5-mrt-2008, om 6:41 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > S: So the insight referred to in the sutta is that which > understands the > rise and fall of the various namas and rupas, the 5 khandhas, "as > though > they were iron darts". It is only at the fourth stage of insight > (vipassanaa ~naana), i.e. udayabbaya ~naa.na, that pa~n~naa clearly > penetrates the arising and falling away of such dhammas. There is > no more > idea of a connected 'whole' or of states lasting. #83692 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Mar 5, 2008 12:41 am Subject: Re: Bodies (Re: [dsg] Real Experience of Abhidhamma Questions.) nilovg Hi Howard, Op 4-mrt-2008, om 21:49 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Nina, is his body anything at all? It is concept, isn't it, as you > view > the matter, and thus not an existent at all? Isn't that the > official story > that you have come to accept? ------- N: What is the body? Rupas that arise and fall away. These are not concepts but realities (or as you prefer: actualities). For explanation purposes we can speak about rupas of the body, rupas outside, rupas of a corpse, rupas of a living body. In the last case, kamma, citta, heat and nutrition produce groups of rupa. Nina. #83693 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Mar 5, 2008 3:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma vs. Yogacara Views of Consciousness sarahprocter... Hi James & Alex, You've both been raising good questions and points on the Abhidhamma recently. --- buddhatrue wrote: > I have been doing some reading into Yogacara and I came across this > description (and I was wondering if anyone had any input/ideas): > > >As Abhidharma grew more complex, disputes intensified between > different Buddhist schools along a range of issues. For > Yogâcâra the > most important problems revolved around questions of causality and > consciousness. In order to avoid the idea of a permanent self, > Buddhists said citta is momentary. Since a new citta apperceives a > new cognitive field each moment, the apparent continuity of mental > states was explained causally by claiming each citta, in the moment > it ceased, also acted as cause for the arising of its successor. ... S: Yes, this is by anantara paccaya (proximity condition). Each citta conditions the next one. ... > >This was fine for continuous perceptions and thought processes, but > difficulties arose since Buddhists identified a number of situations > in which no citta at all was present or operative, such as deep > sleep, unconsciousness, and certain meditative conditions explicitly > defined as devoid of citta (aasa.mj~nii-samaapatti, > nirodha-samaapatti). ... S: First of all, to clarify a point: in deep sleep or unconsciousness (as we know it), there are still cittas arising and falling away. These are bhavanga (life-continuum) cittas. They also arise in between sense and mind-door processes all the time. As for the case of nirodha samaapatti, the author of the article is correct, there are no cittas arising. This is also the same in the asa~n~na-satta plane where there are only rupas. <...> http://www.acmuller.net/yogacara/articles/intro-uni.htm ... > James: What I find interesting is the "problem" presented by the > Abhidhamma in that there are times that cittas are not present and > how the Yogacara view of eight different consciousnesses accounts > for this. .... S: I don't think it really is "a "problem" as presented by the Abhidhamma." U Narada (who translated the Patthana) explains in his 'Guide to Conditional Relations' under anantara(proximity) and samanantara (contiguity) conditions: "Proximity Force is Not Destroyed by the Intervention of Materiality.....Although materiality has intervened between the two mental states, faultless neither-perception-nor-non-perception impulsion (S: the last citta before nirodha samapatti) is related to Anagami Fruition-consciousness (S: the first citta after emerging from nirodha samapatti) by proximity condition. This is stated in the Investigation Chapter of the Faultless Triplet [S: of Patthana, C.R. pp 148/9] as: 'having emerged from the attainment of Extinction, faultless neither-perception-nor-non-perception is related to the attainment of Fruition by proximity condition.' "With the Arahat the relation is between functional neither-perception-nor-non-perception and Arahatta Fruition-consciousness. So, no matter how many material states may succeed one another to intervene between two mental states, they have no power to cut off the succession of such mental states with which proximity condition is concerned. "Another example is that of one who attains the fifth Jhaana in the sensuous plane and dies. Rebirth takes place in the non-percipient plane where there is materiality only and which lasts for 500 worlds. Then after death there is rebirth in the sensuous plane. The death consciousness in the sensuous plane (prior to rebirth in the non-percipient plane) is related to rebirth consciousness in the sensuous plane (after death in the non-percipient plane) by proximity condition without the intervention of any other mentality. Here the proximity force is not destroyed although materiality lasting for 500 worlds intervenes." **** Metta, Sarah p.s. See also these messages of Nina's with extracts from the Vism and Tiika on this point: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/58831 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/73367 ========= #83694 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Mar 5, 2008 3:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Real Experience of Abhidhamma Questions. nilovg Dear Tep and Alex, Op 4-mrt-2008, om 23:57 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > MN 44 (also, see SN 41.6: Kamabhu > Sutta) explains the process: > > "Now, lady, how does the attainment of the cessation of perception & > feeling come about?" > > "The thought does not occur to a monk as he is attaining the > cessation of > perception & feeling that 'I am about to attain the cessation of > perception > & feeling' or that 'I am attaining the cessation of perception & > feeling' or > that 'I have attained the cessation of perception & feeling.' > Instead, the > way his mind has previously been developed leads him to that state." > > "Now, lady, how does emergence from the cessation of perception & > feeling come about?" > > "The thought does not occur to a monk as he is emerging from the > cessation of perception & feeling that 'I am about to emerge from the > cessation of perception & feeling' or that 'I am emerging from the > cessation of perception & feeling' or that 'I have emerged from the > cessation of perception & feeling.' Instead, the way his mind has > previously been developed leads him to that state." > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.044.than.html > > T: I understand as follows: the mind that "has previously been > developed" means the will to live on , i.e. "vitality fabrication" . ------ N: Previous development, this may pertain to his previous attainments: insight to the stage of anaagami as well as jhaana to the stage of neither perception nor non-perception. But as he emerges from the aruupa jhana stage of nothingness he has to do a fourfold preparatory task. See Vi. Ch XXIII, 34 and following. Non-damage to others' property, the Community's waiting, the Master's summons, the limit of his life's duration. See § 43: after that follows the fourth aruupa jhana and then cessation. Considering the limit of his life's duration, this may be aayu sankhaara you refer to. The Vis. translates: vital formations, see footnote 17 in same section. They are the life span, or, they are lifespan, heat and citta. There is no death during cessation. Nina. #83695 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Mar 5, 2008 3:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (15) .. Absence of Greed .. nilovg Dear Han, Op 5-mrt-2008, om 1:55 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > Han: Not quite. I am, say, 75 % of my previous > constitution. No, I don’t think I will live up to 99. > I give myself only a few more years, even that is if > my kamma permits. ------ N: But mentally, you are very well, as I see from the number of posts and the quality of posts you sent us. We enjoy having you here and we shall continue to keep you busy with Dhamma. Nina. #83696 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Mar 4, 2008 11:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] "Capital Idea" Gomez Adams upasaka_howard Hi, Colette - In a message dated 3/5/2008 1:37:57 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, ksheri3@... writes: Hi Howard, I take your response with a grain of sand and trust that it's well intentioned thus I gloss over the negative. The negative is like the fluff they put in newspapers or magazines just to keep the reader reading, there's not much substance if the reader isn't strictly seeking the negative to use as a means. I am not doing that nor do I enjoy that path, that form of operation. > What is this continual repetition of yours to be being appologetic? I > mean it seems that you're sorry that anything in the past has existed > or transpired. > ------------------------------------------------------------> Howard: > If I believe I have acted improperly and have hurt someone, the result > is that I regret it, I want to try to remove some of the hurt, and I > apologize. It is an attempt to make up for causing harm. Should I apologize for > *that*? ;-) colette: lets look at the world as it is, which is what the Suttas and the Abhidharma do. I'd like to apply Nargarjuna but you have trouble with his workings so I'll fall back on the trusty Theravadan technique. "You can please some of the people some of the time but you can't pleas all the people all the time" or some of the time, for that matter. This axiom applied THEN I am lead to believe that no matter what I say there will always be an individual offended by it or by my speech. ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: That's likely so, for each of us. But the bottom line in evaluating one's behavior, as in all other personal decisions, is that the deciding must be done by oneself. If I determine that I have acted badly, I will try to make amends, and if not, then not. The bottom line, in behavior and in belief, is that one has to be a light unto oneself, or, as some Mahayanist has said, "Put no head above your own." ---------------------------------------------- I've been doing A LOT OF PONDERING, lately, in fact I have been shown some fundamental structural concepts of Buddhism, recently, and am simply astonished by the complete grasp and understanding that the Buddhist path sets forth. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: We sure do agree on that. ---------------------------------------------- For instance I have always feared the physical effects of drugs and/or alcohol. Since, at one time I actually witnessed the effects of alcoholism through Polish immigrants where I analysed the hell out of the situation. Last weekend I was shown some people that were completely drunk and as I observed their behavior I found that the physical effects of the alcohol are a meer pitance to the psychological effects where I began pondering the actuality of this DESIRE or need to drink and become incoherent as being INTERNAL or is the DESIRE EXTERNAL where I found it is both APPLYING RELATIVE TRUTH ONLY. Now I have to, after properly grasping this cognition of reality, I have to go back and actually recall all the experiences in bars that I've had since like 1997, and reformat, reconsider, re-evaluate, EVERYTHING USING THIS NEW CONTEXT. -------------------------------------------- Howard: I believe you are emphasizing here the importance of being a "first hander" here. Yes, it is important. -------------------------------------------- BTW, the USN, placed on my discharge papers, Honorable Discharge, the de-briefing I had to go through as a Communications & Intelligence Specialist, they put something to the effect that "don't tell this person anything, they'll remember it and raise the issues", thus I have a pretty good memory when I go deep into meditation. When you use the function of appoligizing of what you speak as potentially offending another person then you have no reason to speak since you surely must be cognizant that you will offend another person. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: I strongly disagree. The general principle you are putting forward here seems to be that unless one has become perfect, it is pointless to make amends for deficiencies in one's actions. My general principle is to do the best I can, or, at least, to try to "do better". --------------------------------------------- <....> I wouldn't dare to disrepect any fellow travelor since that person might save my life at some point, eventhough I've noticed that over the past few months I've been getting a lot of interesting material specifically designated as part of the Lion's Roar Technique. -------------------------------------------------- > BTW, are you taking up psychoanalysis these days? LOL! colette: drug dealers are all the same, I mean pharmecutical reps. for drug cartels, oooops pharmecutical corporations, multi-national corporations. I am certainly in the Zurich school of psycho-analisis, C.G.Jung, not in <....>FREUD or is that FRAUD, and his Vienne school. Ever hear of Rudolph Steiner or Leadbetter, both Theosophists? ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: I can't follow the above: my semi-joking question you quote and your "response". It doesn't parse for me as conversation. Yes, I've heard of Theosophy. When I was a pre-teen in Philadelphia, I'd regularly hop the bus downtown to the Theosophical Society Reading Room and spend hours there going through books, mostly Blavatsky's (HPB's) stuff. ------------------------------------------------- > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > can I have a ruling here: Is it appropriate to bring in the concept > of "going", "the goer" and "the gone"? > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Huh? colette: the goer and going are part of the first section of Nargarjuna's work and turn out to be a major part that vindicates a lot of the other sections. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I'm familiar with the language, both in Buddhaghosa's terms and Nagarjuna's. I just didn't get your point in the context of your post. It was too cryptic for me. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > > > To answer my own question to you Howard I'll suggest that your > concept of the past is completely dependent on CLINGING which sets up > this entire script for Dependent Origination. > --------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > You wouldn't have any clue in that regard, Colette. colette: Wouldn't I? THIS IS A BAITED POST, HIGHLY BOOBY-TRAPPED. -------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I prefer fields that are clear of explosives. ------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------- For the record, I > would prefer not being second guessed and undergoing remote analysis. I don't > presume to know your motivations and the bases for your actions. I'd > appreciate it if you would accord me the same respect. colette: I give you nothing but the respect you deserve for accepting me as an individual and trying to learn the Buddhist path and techniques. I also give you the respect that your motivation may not be as pure and selfless as mine and that you will attempt to maintain a grasp and control of something that is not your property and is not exclusively your possession which only you can interpret and only you can DICTATE. <...> ------------------------------------------------- Howard: That last sounds a lot less like giving respect than exercising conceit. ------------------------------------------------- You closed somewhat nicely so I shall advice you that maybe your search for calm and peace of mind can be found in the "Chaos Matrix" or "Chaos Magic" where you should seek Austin Osman Spare and his CERMON OF THE HYPOCRITE. Thanx for your opinion and conversation. I look forward to better discussions on Madhyamika and such. tooldes, colette ========================== With metta, Howard #83697 From: han tun Date: Wed Mar 5, 2008 4:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (15) .. Absence of Greed .. hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much for your mettaa, karu.naa and cetanaa. Yes, I keep myself busy with Dhamma to the extent possible. Dhamma is the best medicine, I think. Respectfully, Han --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > N: But mentally, you are very well, as I see from > the number of posts > and the quality of posts you sent us. We enjoy > having you here and we > shall continue to keep you busy with Dhamma. > Nina. #83698 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Mar 5, 2008 12:18 am Subject: Re: Bodies (Re: [dsg] Real Experience of Abhidhamma Questions.) upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 3/5/2008 3:41:57 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Op 4-mrt-2008, om 21:49 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Nina, is his body anything at all? It is concept, isn't it, as you > view > the matter, and thus not an existent at all? Isn't that the > official story > that you have come to accept? ------- N: What is the body? Rupas that arise and fall away. These are not concepts but realities (or as you prefer: actualities). ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: A body is an aggregation of rupas. I'm not talking about paramattha dhammas, but bodies per se. We both agree that sights, sounds, tastes, smells, and "body-door" sensations arise and cease. A body is none of these, but is an integrated collection of such. But, Nina, you seem to be forgetting all about the concept- versus-realities issue. You have always maintained, Nina, that a body, a tree, a house, a person, etc are all concepts and do not exist, do not change, and so on. Have you changed your mind? Do you now say that they DO exist? You seem to want it both ways, and that's hard to defend. Nina, you say above "What is the body? Rupas that arise and fall away. These are not concepts but realities (or as you prefer: actualities)." You could reply in the very same way about all the things you call pa~n~natti, thereby turning them all into "realities." In the foregoing, you could replace 'body' by 'person' and 'Rupas' by 'Namas and rupas', and have a statement just as true (or false): "What is the person? Namas and rupas that arise and fall away. These are not concepts but realities (or as you prefer: actualities)." But a person is *not* namas and rupas. It is an *aggregation* of such, and the whole acts differently from its parts. Trees grow and blossom and shed leaves, but rupas do not. And, again, Nina, how is it that you are now according existence to "bodies" that you have always viewed as pa~n~natti? Nina, I'm not talking about paramattha dhammas, but bodies per se. We both agree that sights, sounds, tastes, smells, and "body-door" sensations arise and cease. They don't get sick, though, Nina, and then well. The body does. Aging, and illness, and so on are matters pertaining to the specific *aggregations* of dhammas we call bodies and erroneously think about as individuals. What is the aging of a body is a change in pattern - a change in the constellation of and patterns of interrelationship among the rupas that arise and cease and comprise the aggregation we call a body. A body is nothing without the rupas that comprise it, and the behavior of the body is entirely dependent on, and reducible to, those rupas and the structural and dynamic relations holding among them, but *they* are are paramattha dhammas, and a *body* is an aggregation of them, and these are not one and the same. The paramattha dhammas are properly thought of as individual phenomena, but a body is erroneously thought of that way, and speaking of a body as a unity instead of as an aggregation is merely a convenience of speech. ---------------------------------------------------- For explanation purposes we can speak about rupas of the body, rupas outside, rupas of a corpse, rupas of a living body. In the last case, kamma, citta, heat and nutrition produce groups of rupa. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: A body ages, Nina. But something that doesn't exist does not age or change in any way. On DSG it is repeatedly said that pa~n~natti don't change. What has happened to that? ------------------------------------------------- Nina. =========================== With metta, Howard #83699 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Mar 5, 2008 5:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] AN 10.60 Girimananda Sutta To Girimananda scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, Thanks for giving the Commentary regarding atta-sa~n~naa. S: "...What I understand is that unless the characteristics of elements are known distinctly, they are bound to be 'taken as one', as a 'whole' and there is bound to be atta-sa~n~naa at such times." Scott: I think the Commentarial explanation is very clear. The phrase, '...the characteristic of no-self fails to be apparent because it is concealed by compactness owing to resolution of compactness not being kept in mind..." interests me. This was also in the Sammohavinodanii excerpt. This 'being concealed by compactness' is, to my mind, a description of the everyday ordinary experience of the world. In other words, the assumption that wholes are the objects of the six senses is a function of a mental process that is devoid of pa~n~naa. And I think that this must be a function of mind-door process, but am not at all sure of that. With the arising of visible object, for example, and the confluence of visible object with visible object-base and eye-consciousness, there is not yet such a concealment by compactness; this comes later, assisted or supported by the characteristics of sa~n~naa. Or so it seems to me, theoretically. Sa~n~naa is, according to Dhammasa"nganii, (pp. 7-8): "The perception, the perceiving, the state of having perceived which on that occasion is born of contact with the appropriate element of representative intellection..." Scott: Note that this says nothing of what is perceived. Note also that sa~n~naa is often related to 'memory' or 'recognition'. Atthasalaanii (p. 146): "The noting of an object as blue-green, etc., is perception [sa~n~naa, sa~njaananaa]. It has the characteristic of noting and the function of recognising that which has been previously noted. There is no such thing as perception in the four planes of existence without the characteristic of noting. All perceptions have the characteristic of noting. Of them, that perceiving which knows by specialized knowledge has the function of recognizing what has been noted previously...According to another method, perception has the characteristic of noting by an act of general inclusion, and the function of [assigning] 'mark-reasons' for this inclusive noting...Its manifestation is an inclining [of the attention], as in the case of blind persons who 'see' and elephant. Or it has briefness as manifestation, like lightning, owing to its inability to penetrate an object. Its proximate cause is whatever object has appeared, like the perception which arises in the young deer mistaking scarecrows for men. Of the perceptions, that which is associated with knowledge follows it, just as, among the elements of extension, etc., with their constituents, the remaining constituents follow the element of extension, etc." Scott: I realize that the blind person 'seeing' the elephant likely refers to how one feels the tail and thus 'sees' the elephant in this limited way - mistaking a part for a whole. I think there is another way to apply this - taking for a whole that which is made up of parts. In the case of the characteristic of sa~n~naa, by way of 'mark-reasons' (and I'll want to chase down the Paa.li for this designation) visible object - colour - is taken as 'elephant'. The same process of misperception is described, by way of simile, when the perception of the young deer takes 'scarecrow' to be 'men'. This, I surmise, is a description of how 'compactness' comes to be formed. Seeing an elephant where there is only colour; seeing 'men' when they are only scarecrows - these are metaphors for worldly perception and might very easily apply to atta-sa~n~naa. An aside referring to 'sa~n~naa' and 'sa~njaananaa' (Atthasaalinii, p. 185): "Sa~n~naa (perception) is the name of a real thing; sa~njaananaa is the act of perceiving by noting; sa~njaanitatta.m shows the state of having perceived by noting" Scott: 'Perceiving by noting' is altered perception. Sincerely, Scott. #83700 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Mar 5, 2008 5:34 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (15) .. Absence of Greed .. dhammanusara Dear Han & Nina, - Let me join your Senior Dhamma Club too, since Dhamma is also the best medicine that keeps me going from day to day (till who knows when). --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear Nina, > > Thank you very much for your mettaa, karu.naa and > cetanaa. > Yes, I keep myself busy with Dhamma to the extent > possible. > Dhamma is the best medicine, I think. > > Respectfully, > Han > > --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > N: But mentally, you are very well, as I see from > > the number of posts > > and the quality of posts you sent us. We enjoy > > having you here and we > > shall continue to keep you busy with Dhamma. > > Nina. > .............. Thank you very much Nina for that great kusala cetana. Tep == #83701 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Mar 5, 2008 5:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Real Experience of Abhidhamma Questions. dhammanusara Dear Nina (Alex), - I appreciate the research you have done that expands the previous discussion on vitality fabrications (aayu-sankhara). > > T: I understand as follows: the mind that "has previously been > developed" means the will to live on , i.e. "vitality fabrication" . ------ N: Previous development, this may pertain to his previous attainments: insight to the stage of anaagami as well as jhaana to the stage of neither perception nor non-perception. But as he emerges from the aruupa jhana stage of nothingness he has to do a fourfold preparatory task. See Vi. Ch XXIII, 34 and following. Non-damage to others' property, the Community's waiting, the Master's summons, the limit of his life's duration. See § 43: after that follows the fourth aruupa jhana and then cessation. >Considering the limit of his life's duration, this may be aayu sankhaara you refer to. The Vis. translates: vital formations, see footnote 17 in same section. They are the life span, or, they are lifespan, heat and citta. There is no death during cessation. T: Yes, vitality that continues a lifespan across the gap of nirodha sampatti where both perception and feeling cease. Why do you think if there is 'citta' when there are neither perception nor feeling? Although it makes sense to me that a stream of cittas cannot have a "gap", but I do not know why. Thanks. Tep === #83702 From: han tun Date: Wed Mar 5, 2008 5:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (15) .. Absence of Greed .. hantun1 Dear Friend Tep, > Tep: Let me join your Senior Dhamma Club too, since Dhamma is also the best medicine that keeps me going from day to day (till who knows when). Han: You are most welcome, Tep. Respectfully, Han #83703 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Mar 5, 2008 6:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] F/W message from Saengchan sarahprocter... Another F/W message from Saengchan ********************************** Dear Sara and Jonothan, Thank you very much for your explaination. I appreciate it . Well, I don't know how to write my expanation down in that website , but I will take your advice by asking Sukin to explain how to do that when I see him next time. And about the process of the mind door, I mean those series of cittas eg. atita phawong, phawongka jarana until chavana-cittas.At what level of panya can they be understood? Thank you. Sadhu & metta Saengchan sarah abbott wrote: Pls see: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/83298 S. #83704 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Mar 5, 2008 4:48 am Subject: Samana-Sukha :-)! bhikkhu0 Friends The 8 Pleasures of the Reclusive Sage (Samana-Sukha): The absence of possessions & possessiveness... Blameless daily begging of alms food... Content, calm & composed with modest needs... Detached ease regarding all phenomena... Fearlessness of robbery, violence & loss... Freedom from government, taxation, etc... Freedom from bosses, administrators, etc... Unobstructed in all directions & realms... The Reclusive Bliss = Samana-Sukha! :-)** Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest * Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka :-) <...> #83705 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Mar 5, 2008 6:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] AN 10.60 Girimananda Sutta To Girimananda nilovg Dear Scott, what you say and quote is very helpful. One remark below. Op 5-mrt-2008, om 14:26 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: > S: "...What I understand is that unless the characteristics of > elements are known distinctly, they are bound to be 'taken as one', as > a 'whole' and there is bound to be atta-sa~n~naa at such times." > > Scott: I think the Commentarial explanation is very clear. The > phrase, '...the characteristic of no-self fails to be apparent because > it is concealed by compactness owing to resolution of compactness not > being kept in mind..." interests me. This was also in the > Sammohavinodanii excerpt. > > This 'being concealed by compactness' is, to my mind, a description of > the everyday ordinary experience of the world. In other words, the > assumption that wholes are the objects of the six senses is a function > of a mental process that is devoid of pa~n~naa. And I think that this > must be a function of mind-door process, but am not at all sure of > that. ----- N: Also in the sensedoor process the javanacittas can be lobhamulacittas accompanied by wrong view. Eight types are possible. They arise because of accumulations. We do not have to do anything to make them arise! No effort needed. I like this; Yes, while thinking: my body is sitting, or I am sitting. Nina. #83706 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Mar 5, 2008 7:04 am Subject: Re: Bodies (Re: [dsg] Real Experience of Abhidhamma Questions.) nilovg Hi Howard, I do not know very well how to answer you. I do not see any problems about concepts and realities and it seems that you find my post problematic, or that I changed my mind.??? Op 5-mrt-2008, om 14:18 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Nina, you say above "What is the > body? Rupas that arise and fall away. These are not concepts but > realities (or > as you prefer: actualities)." You could reply in the very same way > about all > the things you call pa~n~natti, thereby turning them all into > "realities." In > the foregoing, you could replace 'body' by 'person' and 'Rupas' by > 'Namas and > rupas', and have a statement just as true (or false): "What is the > person? > Namas and rupas that arise and fall away. These are not concepts > but realities > (or as you prefer: actualities)." > But a person is *not* namas and rupas. It is an *aggregation* of such, > and the whole acts differently from its parts. -------- N: I am thinking of Sarah's and Scott's posts. I quote Scott: <'...the characteristic of no-self fails to be apparent because it is concealed by compactness owing to resolution of compactness not being kept in mind..." interests me. This was also in the Sammohavinodanii excerpt. This 'being concealed by compactness' is, to my mind, a description of the everyday ordinary experience of the world. In other words, the assumption that wholes are the objects of the six senses is a function of a mental process that is devoid of pa~n~naa.> N: I think we have to be careful not to see a whole of the five khandhas. This prevents realizing the three characteristics. Attaasa~n~naa is always around the corner, for all of us. Seeing the whole of the five khandhas as attaa. --------- Quote from Sarah's post: ------ N: That is how the body (our great body) is experienced: solidity, heat, motion. Very insignificant rupas, nothitng to take pride in. -------- <"When this has been done, the characteristic of no-self becomes apparent in its true nature.. But when material and immaterial states (states of mind and matter) have arisen mutually supporting each other, their compactness as a mass is assumed through failure to subject formations to compression owing to belief in their unity. And likewise compactness of function is assumed when, although differences in the functions of such states exist, they are taken as one. "And likewise compactness of object is assumed when, although differences in the ways in which states that have objects make them their objects exist, they are taken as one. But when these compactnesses have been resolved by means of knowledge into their elements, they are seen to disintegrate, like foam subjected to pressure by the hand. They are mere phenomena that occur due to conditions, and are void. Thus it is that the characteristic of no-self becomes fully evident."> Only elements, Howard. **** Nina. #83707 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Mar 5, 2008 7:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Real Experience of Abhidhamma Questions. nilovg Dear Tep, Op 5-mrt-2008, om 14:52 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > T: Yes, vitality that continues a lifespan across the gap of nirodha > sampatti where both perception and feeling cease. > > Why do you think if there is 'citta' when there are neither > perception nor > feeling? Although it makes sense to me that a stream of cittas cannot > have a "gap", but I do not know why. ------ N: I did not mean that there is citta during nirodha. Perhaps I did not make myself clear? During nirodha there is temporary suspension of citta and cetasikas. Nina. #83709 From: "Alex" Date: Wed Mar 5, 2008 7:39 am Subject: Re: He experiences pain and grief that have right view as condition... truth_aerator Dear Scott, 1) Why can't wholesome citta feel as pain in that moment? 2) Why can't unwholesome citta feel as pleasure in that moment? Can you explain how one can kill (have akusala state) with Joy? Thanks, Lots of metta, Alex #83710 From: "Alex" Date: Wed Mar 5, 2008 7:49 am Subject: Re: Real Experience of Abhidhamma Questions. truth_aerator Dear Tep, Nina and all, > T: vitality that continues a lifespan across the gap of nirodha sampatti where both perception and feeling cease. >>> Is this vitality located in the physical body? If so, what about in Arupa planes where body doesn't exist? Lots of Metta, Alex #83711 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Mar 5, 2008 3:52 am Subject: Individuals and Aggregations (Resending) upasaka_howard Hi, all - At all levels of thought, discourse, and reality, the distinction between individuals and aggregations is important. Examples at the basic "paramattha-dhamma -> aggregation" level (for example relating rupic interactions to bodily changes) are way too complex to spell out, so, instead, I give a higher-level example comparing "individuals" that are already actually aggregations themselves with aggregations of these: 1) A single tree in an otherwise empty field is burning. There is little or no effect on a nearby village. 2) A single tree that is part of a forest is struck by lightning and set on fire. The fire spreads to adjacent trees. Soon the entire forest is aflame, and there is now a conflagration: The air is furnace hot, hurricane-force winds spread the heat and sparks afar, catching onto homes in the nearby village, and soon there is human tragedy. The heat of one tree feeds upon the heat of others, and with this mutual support, there is a crescendo of destructive activity greater than the plain sum of the effects of the individual trees burning. The behavior of aggregations is different in kind and degree from the behavior of individuals, though it is entirely based on the individual behavior. Without distinguishing phenomena from aggregations of phenomena, our view of reality is radically incomplete and drastically distorted. With metta, Howard #83712 From: "Alex" Date: Wed Mar 5, 2008 9:59 am Subject: Bodies (Re: [dsg] Real Experience of Abhidhamma Questions.) truth_aerator Dear All, In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > N: I quote Scott: > <'...the characteristic of no-self fails to be apparent because > it is concealed by compactness owing to resolution of compactness not> being kept in mind..." interests me. This was also in the > Sammohavinodanii excerpt. > > This 'being concealed by compactness' is, to my mind, a description of the everyday ordinary experience of the world. In other words, the > assumption that wholes are the objects of the six senses is a function > of a mental process that is devoid of pa~n~naa.> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What about Anathapindika (who really liked Sariputta and was one of the top if not the top lay people) and lay sotapannas who never knew the above? Check MN143 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.143.than.html Apparently teaching: Don't cling to six sixes, 6 elements, 5 aggregates, 4 arupa planes was too advanced to be taught to householders (even though they were as advanced as Anagamins). And some insist that Advanced Stuff is required for sotopanna... Heck, some Arahants can't answer questions on advanced Dhamma and Vinaya... == "Herein, monks, a monk destroys the cankers and enters into and abides in the emancipation of the mind and wisdom, knowing and realizing this state for himself, even in this present life. This I declare of his quick-wittedness. When questioned on More-Dhamma and on More- Discipline, he fails and cannot answer the questions. This I declare his lack of grace." - AN book of 9s iv, 399, ic, III, 23 =========== So in essence these teachings we have in Sutta Pitaka are more than enough for Arahatship (some of the Suttas were heard by monks who were already Arahants). But there is a problem if some incorrect teachings of people, who may even never seen Buddha face to face, slow one down.... It doesn't matter even if some "elder" seen the Buddha. If his words don't align with Sutta Pitaka (4Nikayas) then they shouldn't be accepted. Sati, Arittha, Devadatta, Channa (the one in DN16 who was imposed Brahma penalty on) they were all monks who seen the Buddha... Yet we know... So just because some elder says so, it doesn't mean much unless his words are not contradictory and match those said in the Suttas. But then, why do we need commentators? "Whatever a teacher should do — seeking the welfare of his disciples, out of sympathy for them — that have I done for you. Over there are the roots of trees; over there, empty dwellings. Meditate (jhana), Ananda. Don't be heedless. Don't later fall into regret. This is our message to you all." - http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.152.than.html Lots of Metta, Alex #83713 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Mar 5, 2008 11:08 am Subject: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 3, no 5. nilovg Dear friends, We read about people in the Buddha’s time who could develop all stages of jhåna and then developed vipassanå. For them samatha was the foundation or proximate cause for insight. However, in order to be able to do so they had to acquire “masteries” (vasí) of jhåna. We read in the “Visuddhimagga” (IV, 131): “Herein, these are the five kinds of mastery: mastery in adverting, mastery in attaining, mastery in resolving (steadying the duration), mastery in emerging, and mastery in reviewing.” This means that jhånacitta had become very natural to them and could arise at any time. Therefore, it could become an object of insight. In order to eradicate defilements completely, insight has to be developed. The person who could attain jhåna had to be aware of the cetasikas which are jhånafactors: applied thinking (vitakka), sustained thinking (vicara), zest (píti), happy feeling (sukha) and concentration (ekaggata cetasika). We read in the scriptures that there were disciples who developed jhåna and vipassanå and disciples who developed only vipassanå. The objects of vipassanå are whatever reality appears in daily life through one of the six doorways. Vipassanå is developed in stages, and in the beginning of its development, the different objects and doorways are not clearly separated. One confuses visible object which is rúpa and seeing which is nåma. It seems that we can see and think or see and hear at the same time. When the first stage of vipassanå is reached the characteristics of nåma and rúpa are clearly distinguished and appear as such through the mind-door. So long as we have not reached that stage we do not know precisely what the mind- door is. Nåma is experienced through the mind-door and rúpa is experienced through its appropriate sense-door and after that through the mind-door. During the moments of insight it is known what the mind-door is. When vipassanå is developed it is also accompanied by samådhi, concentration. Samådhi or ekaggatå cetasika, one-pointedness, arises with each citta and its function is focussing on one object. Usually its characteristic does not appear. Samådhi becomes stronger as paññå develops. At the moment of insight knowledge, there is momentary concentration, khanika samådhi. Samådhi performs its function of concentration of the eightfold Path. When vipassanå is further developed, dhammas can be realized as they are, as impermanent, dukkha and non-self. ****** Nina. #83714 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Mar 5, 2008 11:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Patthaana, was: Real Experience of Abh. Q. nilovg Hi Howard, Op 4-mrt-2008, om 16:40 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > But where have I questioned conditions or conditionality? I have > not! I > only question hidden, mystical "forces" and "powers" that are not > dhammas and > are nothing more than the result of substantialist thought excursions. ------- N: Perhaps there should be more talk on forces (satti) of conditions. It has nothing mystical. You have the book by U Narada Guide to Conditional Relations. See p. XIII,XIV. A conditioning factor is related to the conditioned reality by the force of this or that condition, which brings that condition about. One conditioning dhamma can have several forces, that is, it is related in several ways to the conditioned dhamma. See for this p. XVII. Kamma, a deed done long ago, can produce result in the form of rebirth. That kamma operates by the force of kamma condition, and also by the force of decisive support-condition. More forces at work. We read in Vis. Ch XVII, 136: --------- N: The Tiika adds: as soon as the death-consciousness has ceased, it (the rebirth-consciousness) follows just without any interval. It explains that it has as object the object of the series of javana as mentioned. These are the javanacittas arising shortly before dying. --------- Text Vis.: and it does so located in the unhappy destiny, being driven there by the force of defilements that have not been cut off. ------- N: The Tiika elaborates on the expression ‘ being driven there by the force of defilements that have not been cut off.’ These are the defilements such as ignorance and craving (tanhaa), as the Tiika explains. It states that these are the ‘attendants’ (upa.t.thaana) of kamma and hence there is the inclining to the succession of cittas in a following life. The pa.tisandhi-citta is driven towards one location. It is explained that when the javanacittas before the cuti-citta are akusala cittas, the pa.tisandhicitta is driven towards an unhappy plane. > ---- I quote this to show that there is pushing power not only of past kamma, also of ignorance and craving, not eradicated. More on forces, see p. XX. There is no substantialism, no creator, just empty phenomena rolling on by conditions. Nina. #83715 From: "colette" Date: Wed Mar 5, 2008 12:51 pm Subject: "The Light I see in your eyes" (maybe )Micheal McDonald ksheri3 Good Day Howard, Lets dispose of these conventional nicetyies: you and I are envovled in something we have absolutely no grasp or control of . I APPRECIATE YOUR WILLINGNESS TO PARTICIPATE WITH ME HOWEVER, the LAW OF DEMINISHING RETURNS is going to be achieved where there will be a "withdrawal", may I say a Tzimtsum (a "divine contraction, withdrawal") THIS IS DEPENDENT. I was fully intentioned last night, after returning to my basement to meditate and go to sleep, which I did, focus on <.....>the sequence called DEPENDENT ORIGINATION. I was taken aback and rather upset that you had the nerve to suggest if not say, that I do not have a clue as to DEPENDENT ORIGINATION. I realized this morning that you may be part of an AGGREGATE, which made me realize the rationality of the "disintegration" of the theol;ogical order once called THE ORDO TEMPLI ORIENTUS as a false hood. I WAS AND AM UPSET THAT YOU WOULD HAVE THE GAUL TO SUGGEST THAT I DO NOT HAVE A GRASP OF SUCH A FOUNDATIONAL CONCEPT AS THE DOCTRINE OF DEPENDENT ORIGINATION -- HOW DARE YOU! [BTW, I'm tracking that very concept of yours and hopefully will discover where your words came from so that I can do proper battle with the originator of such hate] I have been, for several hours last night and most of today since 9:00 a.m., have been so focused on the perversions you emulate and perpetuate that I originally concluded that I should allow this post to pass , with all the booby-traps involved, and I should thus relate this cognition to others in WEstern Mystical Traditions that apply directly. Now I am at the point where I cannot allow this beautiful sunfilled day to expire while I hide in the basement, in a dungeon, or under a bridge as trolls do, and I got enough emotion built up to CONFRONT YOU ON YOUR ATTACK. Just so that this is not reflecting light in my face let me brandish my first reply: Nargarjuna ch.1 vs. 2: "When a goer is not possible without going, how then is it possible [to say]": 'a goer goes'. 18. It is inappropri9ate to say: 'going and a goer are the same'. It is inappropriate to say 'going and a goer a drefferent.' 19. If whatever is going were a goer, it would follow that the actor anbd the act would be the same too. 20 If going and a goer were conceived as different, there could be going without a goer and a goer without going. 21. If things are not established as the same and as differen t, how can they be established? 22. That very going by which a goer is made evidendt does not [enable a goer to] go. BEcause ther is no [goer] beforfe going, who would be going where?" Now let me partake of DEPENTDENT ORIGINATION <.....>. AS IF YOU CAN ESCAPE KARMA, remember those illustrius words sung by John Lennon: "Instant karmas gonna get you". <...> Now I've copped an attitude and have totally created this into a cronfrontational discussion. Sorry but your blasphemy is well out of my grasp. I even stated today when I was trying to stop myself from coming to the library to confronting your sick humour: "the darkness they issue is tremendous". I'm sure that our friend Alax can relate since he proposes that Light Destroys DArkness and that Darkness Destroys Light, THUS if he actually were a buddhist and he were even close to being acceptable to the Kagyu he would already know that his propositions of one destroying the other are absolutely ludicrous and without any merit whatsoever. <....> toodles, colette <....> #83716 From: "colette" Date: Wed Mar 5, 2008 2:14 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] "Capital Idea" Gomez Adams ksheri3 Hi Howard, I've composed myself enough to deal with your completely false realty. -------------------------------------------- > Howard: > That's likely so, for each of us. But the bottom line in evaluating > one's behavior, as in all other personal decisions, is that the deciding must be > done by oneself. colette: that is perfectly acceptable and resonable but then you get into this diasection of the behavior that is unwarranted. It seems that it's a problem with grasping the Relative Truth and the Absolute Truth. You've just shown me that I have a grasp of the absolute truth BECUASE OF, dependent origination, my Near Death Exeriences. Lets proceed. -------------------------- If I determine that I have acted badly, I will try to make > amends, and if not, then not. colette: WHY IS IT ALWAYS IN THE PAST TENSE? The are your actions, per se, why is it that your actions are exclusively programmed by the past? What is it that addicts you to clinging to karma THUS transforming your actions of today as being without merit and without consequence? Now lets look at your statement that your determination is ALWAYS IN THE PAST TENSE. I'm sure that I can get any freshman student at any Asian university to majoring in physics and/or theology to point out the IGNORANCE you display when you stake you claim to the future entirely upon THE PAST. [As a magi I certainly can and will work with that behavorial mode of operation since you do not exist and are sunya as is every other person I do not meet and do not interact with on the internet <.....>. ---------------------------------- The bottom line, in behavior and in belief, colette: one hefty chunk of change you've simply doled out to us here. Are you telling me that every person that testifies at a trial in the USA gets up, puts their hand on the bible and swears an oathe "to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help me god"? And you are clearly pointing out that it is you that only can determine what the truth is and what the truth is not which makes you god, a diety, <....>. I did, afterall, study the Divine Art of architecture during my high school yrs and did take many yrs. of cabinet making, not to mention my yrs of being ostracized by that oh-so exclusive group of people called the Bourgeoisie or middle-class. Wouldn't you just love to know where Jimmy Hoffa is buried and rests in peace? -------------------------------------------- is > that one has to be a light unto oneself, or, as some Mahayanist has said, > "Put Ho head above your own." colette: it seems you have an addiction to SELF-FULLFILLING PROFECYIES. <...> I'm running out of time <.....> toodles, colette <....> #83717 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Mar 5, 2008 10:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] "The Light I see in your eyes" (maybe )Micheal McDonald upasaka_howard Hi, Colette - In a message dated 3/5/2008 6:34:09 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, ksheri3@... writes: Good Day Howard, Lets dispose of these conventional nicetyies: you and I are envovled in something we have absolutely no grasp or control of . I APPRECIATE YOUR WILLINGNESS TO PARTICIPATE WITH ME HOWEVER, the LAW OF DEMINISHING RETURNS is going to be achieved where there will be a "withdrawal", may I say a Tzimtsum (a "divine contraction, withdrawal") THIS IS DEPENDENT. I was fully intentioned last night, after returning to my basement to meditate and go to sleep, which I did, focus on <.....>the sequence called DEPENDENT ORIGINATION. I was taken aback and rather upset that you had the nerve to suggest if not say, that I do not have a clue as to DEPENDENT ORIGINATION. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: You're dreaming, Colette. I referrred to your evaluation of me. We are not communicating, I'm I'm ready to cease. ------------------------------------------------------ I realized this morning that you may be part of an AGGREGATE, which made me realize the rationality of the "disintegration" of the theol;ogical order once called THE ORDO TEMPLI ORIENTUS as a false hood. ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: I haven't a clue what you're talking about. It's enough. ------------------------------------------------------ I WAS AND AM UPSET THAT YOU WOULD HAVE THE GAUL TO SUGGEST THAT I DO NOT HAVE A GRASP OF SUCH A FOUNDATIONAL CONCEPT AS THE DOCTRINE OF DEPENDENT ORIGINATION -- HOW DARE YOU! [BTW, I'm tracking that very concept of yours and hopefully will discover where your words came from so that I can do proper battle with the originator of such hate] -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't know what world you are living in, but it's not this one. What you are talking about isn't even close to reality. You might as well be engaging in a monologue. And after this post, you will not be talking with me. ----------------------------------------------------- I have been, for several hours last night and most of today since 9:00 a.m., have been so focused on the perversions you emulate and perpetuate ================================== Over and done with. I should have known better. I won't make the same mistake again. With metta, and signing off, Howard #83718 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Mar 5, 2008 10:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Capital Idea" Gomez Adams upasaka_howard No. In a message dated 3/5/2008 6:39:55 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, ksheri3@... writes: Hi Howard, I've composed myself enough to deal with your completely false realty. /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream/ (From the Diamond Sutra) #83719 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Mar 5, 2008 4:58 pm Subject: Re: Real Experience of Abhidhamma Questions. dhammanusara Dear Alex (Nina, all), - Unless your intention has been to punish me with those impossible questions, I must thank you for the trust that I have the ability to answer any question you may ask. But I do not have that ability. ;-) > Alex: > Is this vitality located in the physical body? If so, what about in > Arupa planes where body doesn't exist? > I have not been in any of the Arupa planes. Whatever information about vitality (aayu sankhara) that I could find, I already showed to you. Extending beyond that is beyond my ability to answer. Your questions have already drowned me ! Tep === #83720 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Mar 5, 2008 5:06 pm Subject: Re: Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : internal & external realities buddhatrue Hi Tep (Scott and Nina), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi James, - > > Thank you for joining the Abhidhamma Beginners' corner. James: Sure, no problem. :-) > > > I see this flexible usage of terminolgy as formally allowing two > > levels of > > > reality rather than taking the ultimate realities as the only kind > > of reality. > > > > James: I am very glad that you point this out!! Somehow, I feel > > vindicated. :-) > > > > Metta, > > James > > > > T: But that good feeling may not last long ! We'll see. James: :-)) Yeah, it didn't last long; it was replaced by irritation. :-) Scott replied that there are different levels of discourse, not different levels of reality. And then Nina chimes in and states that Scott has explained it all. Oh great, the bobsy twins have saved the day! If the Abhidhamma is to be considered the model for describing ultimate reality, then any discourse the Abhidhamma uses to describe that ultimate reality is, post facto, describing ultimate reality!! When the Abhidhamma describes internal and external dhammas in terms of beings and persons, it is stupid and ridiculous to ignore the references to beings and persons! Why would the Abhidhamma use that description of ultimate reality if the basis for the description wasn't valid?? How else is one to determine internal and external dhammas if it isn't in reference to beings and persons? There is no other way! That is the way the Abhidhamma describes them! But, of course, the bobsy twins don't feel it necessary to provide any type of explanation or analysis for their rejection of the existence of beings and persons. Of course, how are they to determine internal and external dhammas? They can't!!! If they deny the existence of beings and persons, they cannot directly know dhammas (internal and external) and they cannot practice satipatthana (which is to be mindful of internal and external dhammas!). They disregard what is written in the suttas and what is written in the Abhidhamma. What can you say to that? As for me, not much. What do you have to say to that, Tep? > > > Tep > == > Metta, James #83721 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Mar 5, 2008 5:07 pm Subject: Re: He experiences pain and grief that have right view as condition... scottduncan2 Dear Alex, Regarding: A: "1) Why can't wholesome citta feel as pain in that moment? 2) Why can't unwholesome citta feel as pleasure in that moment? Can you explain how one can kill (have akusala state) with Joy?" Scott: Good questions. You have access to CMA. Please do your own research. I'd be happy to discuss what you come up with. Sincerely, Scott. #83722 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Mar 5, 2008 5:08 pm Subject: Re: People are like Tornadoes .. Speculative Views on the Abhidhamm... kenhowardau Hi Ray, In a post to Howard you quoted B Bodhi's comments on SN 94 Flowers where he said: "The affirmation of the existence of the five aggregates, as impermanent processes, serves as a rejoinder to illusionist theories, which hold that the world lacks real being." And you wrote: -------- > For me the last line is the critical portion of note > ------------- Are you sure you agree with that last line? I wish I could believe you did because I wholeheartedly agree it myself. I agree that the sutta was a rejoinder to illusionist theories, which held that the world lacked real being. However, I wouldn't have thought you shared that understanding. Nor do I think B Bodhi shares it. You see, in the line before that BB describes the five aggregates as impermanent "processes." Where did he get that from? Where in the Pali texts are we told that dhammas are processes - as distinct from "things" or "realities" - things that have "real being?" As I understand it, this interpretation is consistent with your interpretation of the Middle Way (also in the same post to Howard). You believe the middle way lies between the ultimate existence of conditioned dhammas and the ultimate non-existence of conditioned dhammas. I see it very differently. I see it as lying between the existence of self and the annihilation of self. (And I see 'self' as being anything other than a paramattha dhamma.) The Middle Way is to see dhammas as they are. It is not to see them as they aren't. :-) BB has said elsewhere that, in his opinion, the Abhidhamma Pitaka was a "later addition" to the Pali Canon. I know he has problems with some parts of it, and I think he feels entitled to disagree with them. I think this is a case in point. BB is interpreting the suttas as saying dhammas are "processes" whereas the Abhidhamma and commentaries say they are "ultimate realities" "things that exist." What do you understand BB to mean by a "process" Ray? Does he mean something becoming something else? Something performing a function? What is that something? Why doesn't BB tell us? According to the Pali texts, dhammas are the performers of functions. But people reject the texts, and they insist there are no performers. Why do they reject the texts in this way? Why are they so keen to say there are processes and yet no performers of the processes? I believe that (subconsciously) they are leaving open a window of opportunity. While there remains an unexplained gap in logic (where there is a performance but no performer) there remains a possibility - a hope that we, ourselves, may somehow fill that gap. I should try not to let this post go on too long. So I will just say that to see dhammas as ultimate realities is, in essence, to see into the void. Even at the mere intellectual level this is true. When dhammas are known as the experincers - and the *only* experincers - of objects, and the performers - and the *only* performers - of functions there is no room (no hope) for any belief in self. All avenues are closed! It is a frightening thing when you think about it - anatta is so desolate and empty - and yet that is exactly the way dhammas are. Ken H #83723 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Mar 5, 2008 5:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Real Experience of Abhidhamma Questions. dhammanusara Dear Nina (Alex), - This conversation we have had (e.g. one case is shown below) convinces me that asking questions about a subject that we only learn from a book often leads to misunderstandings and more doubts. > Tep: Why do you think if there is 'citta' when there are neither > perception nor feeling? > Although it makes sense to me that a stream of cittas cannot > have a "gap", but I do not know why. ------ N: I did not mean that there is citta during nirodha. Perhaps I did not make myself clear? During nirodha there is temporary suspension of citta and cetasikas. T: I do not think any non-ariyan can make himself/herself clear about nirodha. You have done the best you could already, and I thank you for that effort. To ask more questions is not fair to you. Tep === #83724 From: "Alex" Date: Wed Mar 5, 2008 5:16 pm Subject: Re: Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : internal & external realities truth_aerator Hello James and All, In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > James: :-) Scott replied that there are different levels of > discourse, not different levels of reality. >>> How do we know which discourse is which level? Don't you see how this allows a backdoor which a teacher may use to reinterpret the way defilements want? Some reinterpreted Buddha's teaching that celibacy isn't required... Some that formal meditations isn't required... Some started adding suttas which said that Faith is all we need... etc etc... "Monks, these two slander the Tathagata. Which two? He who explains a discourse whose meaning needs to be inferred as one whose meaning has already been fully drawn out. And he who explains a discourse whose meaning has already been fully drawn out as one whose meaning needs to be inferred. These are two who slander the Tathagata." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an02/an02.025.than.html > > If the Abhidhamma is to be considered the model for describing > ultimate reality, then any discourse the Abhidhamma uses to describe that ultimate reality is, post facto, describing ultimate reality!! >>> Was this Buddha's aim? Lots of Metta, Alex #83725 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Mar 5, 2008 5:24 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma vs. Yogacara Views of Consciousness buddhatrue Hi Sarah, Good to hear from you. I appreciate your time and effort to answer this question. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > .... > S: I don't think it really is "a "problem" as presented by the > Abhidhamma." > > U Narada (who translated the Patthana) explains in his 'Guide to > Conditional Relations' under anantara(proximity) and samanantara > (contiguity) conditions: > > "Proximity Force is Not Destroyed by the Intervention of > Materiality.....Although materiality has intervened between the two mental > states, faultless neither-perception-nor-non-perception impulsion (S: the > last citta before nirodha samapatti) is related to Anagami > Fruition-consciousness (S: the first citta after emerging from nirodha > samapatti) by proximity condition. This is stated in the Investigation > Chapter of the Faultless Triplet [S: of Patthana, C.R. pp 148/9] as: > 'having emerged from the attainment of Extinction, faultless > neither-perception-nor-non-perception is related to the attainment of > Fruition by proximity condition.' James: This isn't really saying anything at all. Sarah, have you really read this? If you get past the $10 words, it isn't saying anything! It is basically saying, "Proximity Force is all Powerful!" LOL! What, are we talking magic here or what?? If one citta is supposed to condition the arising of the next citta, those cittas need to be similiar in nature. Additionally, there cannot be a break in those cittas because a break would equal cessation, nibbana without remainder. > > "With the Arahat the relation is between functional > neither-perception-nor-non-perception and Arahatta Fruition- consciousness. > So, no matter how many material states may succeed one another to > intervene between two mental states, they have no power to cut off the > succession of such mental states with which proximity condition is > concerned. James: Wow, such power!! ;-)) > > "Another example is that of one who attains the fifth Jhaana in the > sensuous plane and dies. Rebirth takes place in the non-percipient plane > where there is materiality only and which lasts for 500 worlds. Then after > death there is rebirth in the sensuous plane. The death consciousness in > the sensuous plane (prior to rebirth in the non-percipient plane) is > related to rebirth consciousness in the sensuous plane (after death in the > non-percipient plane) by proximity condition without the intervention of > any other mentality. Here the proximity force is not destroyed although > materiality lasting for 500 worlds intervenes." James: Ooohhh...that's a nifty trick! But, what about reality? > **** > > Metta, > > Sarah Metta, James #83726 From: "Alex" Date: Wed Mar 5, 2008 5:57 pm Subject: Re: Real Experience of Abhidhamma Questions. Daily Life. truth_aerator Dear Tep & Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > Dear Nina (Alex), - > > This conversation we have had (e.g. one case is shown below) convinces me that asking questions about a subject that we only learn from a book often leads to misunderstandings and more doubts. >> Tep > === This question can be asked about mundane, day to day states as well. When citta ceases and before another appears (remember two cittas cannot coexist at one time, one has to cease before the other appears), 1) WHERE are conditions (such as Kamma) stored? 2) How does no longer existing citta pass conditions to not yet arisen citta? 3) If conditions are located ONLY in the presently existent citta, then they are supposed to go extingished in a mind moments time, and we would all be ParaNibbana'ed countless aeons ago. Lots of Metta, Alex #83727 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Mar 5, 2008 6:09 pm Subject: Vism.XVII,244 Vism.XVII,245 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga), Ch. XVII 244. 3. 'As to order': here order is threefold (see Ch. XIV,211), that is to say, order of arising, order of abandoning, and order of teaching. Herein, order of arising of defilements is not meant literally because there is no first arising of defilements in the beginningless round of rebirths. But in a relative sense it is this: usually in a single becoming the misinterpretation of (insistence on) eternity and annihilation are preceded by the assumption of a self. After that, when a man assumes that this self is eternal, rite-and-ritual clinging arises in him for the purpose of purifying the self. And when a man assumes that it breaks up, thus disregarding the next world, sense-desire clinging arises in him. So self-doctrine clinging arises first, and after that, [false-] view clinging, and rite-and-ritual clinging or sense-desire clinging. This, then, is their order of arising in one becoming. 245. And here [false-] view clinging, etc., are abandoned first because they are eliminated by the path of stream-entry. Sense-desire clinging is abandoned later because it is eliminated by the path of Arahantship. This is the order of their abandoning. *********************** 244. kamatoti ettha pana tividho kamo uppattikkamo pahaanakkamo desanaakkamo ca. tattha anamatagge sa.msaare imassa pa.thama.m uppattiiti abhaavato kilesaana.m nippariyaayena uppattikkamo na vuccati. pariyaayena pana yebhuyyena ekasmi.m bhave attaggaahapubba"ngamo sassatucchedaabhiniveso, tato ``sassato aya.m attaa''ti ga.nhato attavisuddhattha.m siilabbatupaadaana.m, ``ucchijjatii´´ti ga.nhato paralokanirapekkhassa kaamupaadaananti eva.m pa.thama.m attavaadupaadaana.m, tato di.t.thisiilabbatakaamupaadaanaaniiti ayametesa.m ekasmi.m bhave uppattikkamo. 245. di.t.thupaadaanaadiini cettha pa.thama.m pahiiyanti sotaapattimaggavajjhattaa. kaamupaadaana.m pacchaa, arahattamaggavajjhattaati ayametesa.m pahaanakkamo. #83728 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Mar 5, 2008 6:11 pm Subject: Re: Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : internal & external realities dhammanusara Dear James, (Nina, Scott, Howard and other DSG friends), - I think we have a worthwhile subject of discussion, but this subject is difficult to handle. [Previous dialogue:] >> Tep: I see this flexible usage of terminolgy as formally allowing two levels of reality rather than taking the ultimate realities as the only kind of reality. >> James: I am very glad that you point this out!! Somehow, I feel vindicated. :-) >> Tep: But that good feeling may not last long ! We'll see. >> James: :-)) Yeah, it didn't last long; it was replaced by irritation. ...................... T: I understand why you felt that way. I was also disappointed, although the disappointment had not been unanticipated. :( I thought I saw "beings" and "persons" or even "self" in the Dhammasangani, but Nina and Scott coldly shot down my hope for an open discussion that might lead to a better understanding of the Abhidhamma. (Scott's quote:) Dhammasa"nganii (PTS): "[1044] Which are the states that are personal? Those states which, for this or that being, are of the self, self-referable, one's own, individual, the issue of grasping; [in other words] the five khandhas." T: Indeed the terms "personal", "self", "individual", and "being" are endoresed by the Abhidhamma book. >Scott: The answer is that 'personal states' are, in the end, the ulimates - paramattha dhammas: ruupa, vedanaa, sa~n~naa, sa"nkhaaraa, and vi~n~naa.na. >N: As Scott said, two levels of discourse. Good to see the Pali as well.. >N: In the same sentence where beings is used, we find also states, that is dhammas, and the five khandhas. The other person is referred too in order to explain: this heap of khandhas is different from that heap of khandhas. James: Scott replied that there are different levels of discourse, not different levels of reality. And then Nina chimes in and states that Scott has explained it all. Oh great, the bobsy twins have saved the day! ... ... ... But, of course, the bobsy twins don't feel it necessary to provide any type of explanation or analysis for their rejection of the existence of beings and persons. Of course, how are they to determine internal and external dhammas? They can't!!! If they deny the existence of beings and persons, they cannot directly know dhammas (internal and external) and they cannot practice satipatthana (which is to be mindful of internal and external dhammas!). They disregard what is written in the suttas and what is written in the Abhidhamma. What can you say to that? As for me, not much. What do you have to say to that, Tep? T: In my humble-and-non-aggravating opinion (IMHANAO) I think Scott just wants to believe what he wants to believe : i.e. ultimate reality is the only reality. In Nina's reply I clearly see a rejection of persons and beings in the real word and, again, like Scott, she wants to believe what she wants to believe. What do I have to say now? The light at the end of my long abhidhamma discussion chanel is prematurely turned off, along with my hope. With all due respects to Nina & Scott, Tep === === #83729 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Mar 5, 2008 6:22 pm Subject: Re: Real Experience of Abhidhamma Questions. Daily Life. dhammanusara Dear Alex (Nina), - What can I expect from you? More questions, of course ! > 1) WHERE are conditions (such as Kamma) stored? > > 2) How does no longer existing citta pass conditions to not yet > arisen citta? > > 3) If conditions are located ONLY in the presently existent citta, > then they are supposed to go extingished in a mind moments time, and we would all be ParaNibbana'ed countless aeons ago. > > Lots of Metta, > > Alex > T: I don't know, Alex. What are your answers ? And how do you know that yours are correct? Sincerely, Tep === #83730 From: "Alex" Date: Wed Mar 5, 2008 6:33 pm Subject: Re: Real Experience of Abhidhamma Questions. Daily Life. truth_aerator Dear Tep and Nina, In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Dear Alex (Nina), - > > What can I expect from you? More questions, of course ! > > > 1) WHERE are conditions (such as Kamma) stored? > > > > 2) How does no longer existing citta pass conditions to not yet > > arisen citta? > > > > 3) If conditions are located ONLY in the presently existent citta, then they are supposed to go extingished in a mind moments time, and we would all be ParaNibbana'ed countless aeons ago. > > > > Lots of Metta, > > > > Alex > > > > T: I don't know, Alex. What are your answers ? And how do you know that yours are correct? > In that particular post I am asking questions without proposing ontology instead. So in this post I don't have ontology to defend. Lots of Metta, Alex #83731 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Mar 5, 2008 6:59 pm Subject: Re: Patthaana (16) dhammanusara Dear Han (and others), - Thank you very much for the very-well written post on 'adosa'. I learned several things from this post; they are: 1. Non-hatred (adosa) has the characteristic of lack of ferocity (aca.n.dikatta lakkhanaa), or of non-opposing. Its function is to remove annoyance (aaghaatavinaya rasa), or to remove fever, and its manifestation is agreeableness (somma-bhaava upatthaanaa). T: I think it is a magical medicine for destroying thought of harmfulness (vihimsa-vitakka) and the underlying tendency to resistance (patighaanusaya). What's your thought? 2. The "far enemy" of loving kindness is hatred or ill-will (dosa) or aversion (kodha); and its "near enemy" is selfish affection. T: Ill-will is "far" because it is diametrically opposite to 'adosa'. Selfish affection is near because during the early stage of lovingkindness development the citta is associated with love. Am I right? You explained: Han: If a worldling (puthujjana) has developed a loving kindness, that adosa may not yet be unshakeable, and with a conditioning factor the adosa may be easily turned into dosa. That conditioning factor is selfish affection, and thus it is called the "near enemy" of loving kindness. T: Can adosa at the beginning be esaily turned into love (delight, lust and desire)? Thank you very much. Tep === #83732 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Mar 5, 2008 7:31 pm Subject: Re: Beginner's Abhidhamma .. internal & external realities .. Typos dhammanusara Hi James and all - I am sorry for the poor typos I found too late : two typos are "word" and "chanel" that should be changed to "world" and "tunnel", respectively.. [Corrected:] > In Nina's reply I clearly see a rejection of persons and beings > in the real world and, again, like Scott, she wants to believe what she > wants to believe. > > What do I have to say now? > The light at the end of my long abhidhamma discussion tunnel is > prematurely turned off, along with my hope. Thanks. Tep == #83733 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Mar 5, 2008 7:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism XX, 'Knowledge of What is/is not the Path' lbidd2 Hi Nina and Ken, One more thought on pain. All pain is unwholesome. Bodily pain is unwholesome resultant feeling and mental pain is unwholesome kamma. Larry #83734 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Mar 5, 2008 8:04 pm Subject: Re: Beginner's Abhidhamma .. internal & external realities .. Typos buddhatrue Hi Tep, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > > What do I have to say now? > > The light at the end of my long abhidhamma discussion tunnel is > > prematurely turned off, along with my hope. Well, don't lose your hope. We can just chat with each other! :-) I have a question for you: why do you suppose the Abhidhamma defines "external" realities only in terms of beings and persons? In other words, why couldn't "external" realities also be trees, rocks, clouds, etc. In short, why couldn't the "external" realities be any of the objects of the five senses? I find it interesting, and perhaps telling, that it is limited to beings and persons. What do you think? Metta, James #83735 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Mar 5, 2008 8:14 pm Subject: Re: Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : internal & external realities buddhatrue Hi Alex, > > If the Abhidhamma is to be considered the model for describing > > ultimate reality, then any discourse the Abhidhamma uses to > describe that ultimate reality is, post facto, describing ultimate > reality!! > >>> > > Was this Buddha's aim? > James: I have already stated my position on that many times. I don't believe the Buddha taught an ontology. However, if one does believe that the Buddha taught an ontology, and that the Abhidhamma represents that ontology, then everything presented in the Abhidhamma must be accepted as ultimate reality. So, if the Abhidhamma describes internal and external dhammas in terms of beings and persons, it isn't tenable to say that the Abhidhamma is just mixing ultimate and conventional language since the goal of the Abhidhamma is to describe ultimate reality and ultimate reality only. It is tenable to make this assertion regarding the suttas because they don't attempt to describe ultimate reality; however, it isn't tenable to make this assertion about the Abhidhamma which is supposed to be detailing ultimate reality. Metta, James #83736 From: han tun Date: Wed Mar 5, 2008 8:53 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (16) hantun1 Dear Friend Tep, As usual, very good questions! > Text: 1. Non-hatred (adosa) has the characteristic of lack of ferocity (aca.n.dikatta lakkhanaa), or of non-opposing. Its function is to remove annoyance (aaghaatavinaya rasa), or to remove fever, and its manifestation is agreeableness (somma-bhaava upatthaanaa) . > Tep: I think it is a magical medicine for destroying thought of harmfulness (vihimsa-vitakka) and the underlying tendency to resistance (patighaanusaya). What's your thought? Han: Yes, it is an antidote for vihimsa vitakka. But I do not think it can destroy the underlying tendency to resistance (patighaanusaya) if a person is still a puthujjana. Anusayas are difficult to destroy. Ditthaanusaya and vicikicchaanusaya are destroyed by Sotaapanna; kaamaraagaanusaya and patighaanusaya by Anaagaami; bhavaraagaanusaya, maanaausaya and avijjaanusaya only by Arahants. -------------------- > Text: 2. The "far enemy" of loving kindness is hatred or ill-will (dosa) or aversion (kodha); and its "near enemy" is selfish affection. > Tep: Ill-will is "far" because it is diametrically opposite to 'adosa'. Selfish affection is near because during the early stage of lovingkindness development the citta is associated with love. Am I right? You explained: Han: If a worldling (puthujjana) has developed a loving kindness, that adosa may not yet be unshakeable, and with a conditioning factor the adosa may be easily turned into dosa. That conditioning factor is selfish affection, and thus it is called the "near enemy" of loving kindness. > Tep: Can adosa at the beginning be easily turned into love (delight, lust and desire)? Han: I would answer, yes, to your question. Adosa at the beginning, in a puthujjana, is not unshakeable, and its near enemy could act like a double-edged sword, turning adosa into dosa, or adosa into selfish affections themselves, overwhelmed by its own near enemy. Well, friend, these are my understanding. I can be wrong! Respectfully, Han #83737 From: TGrand458@... Date: Wed Mar 5, 2008 6:16 pm Subject: "becoming otherwise" TGrand458@... Hi Folks The term "becoming otherwise" is yet another example, IMO, of the Buddha describing "impermanence" in terms of a "gradual alteration" as opposed to "arising and immediately ceasing." Once again, it is the elements that are described as "becoming otherwise" So it would seem that in the Suttas, when something is said to be ceasing, it is due to the alteration of phenomena. I.E. they ceased being what we had previously identified them as being because they have mutated into another form. In other words, phenomena doesn't just disappear. It alters due to conditions...as this Sutta points out. Notice the imagery in the Sutta... consciousness (and all of the 18 elements) are described as -- #1 "moving and tottering," #2 "impermanent," #3 "changing," #4 "becoming otherwise." This application concerns all of the 18 elements...i.e., all conditioned phenomena. Also, please note the structural relationship. Consciousness is seen as altering in accordance with alterations of eye and form, ear and sounds, etc. I.E., the 18 elements aren't impermanent and changing based on "their own inherent characteristics," rather, they is impermanent and changing based on conditions!!! Samyutta Nikaya --- “Monks, consciousness comes to be in dependence on a dyad. And how, monks, does consciousness come to be in dependence on a dyad? In dependence on eye and forms there arises eye-consciousness. The eye is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise; forms are impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. Thus this dyad is moving and tottering, impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. “Eye-consciousness is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. The cause and condition for the arising of eye-consciousness is also impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. When, monks, eye-consciousness has arisen in dependence on a condition that is impermanent, how could it be permanent? “The meeting, the encounter, the occurrence of these three things is called eye-contact. Eye-contact too is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. The cause and condition for the arising of eye-contact is also impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. When, monks, eye-contact has arisen in dependence on a condition that is impermanent, how could it be permanent? “Contacted, monks, one feels, contacted one intends, contacted one perceives. Thus these things too are moving and tottering, impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. [The Buddha proceeds to analyze the ear-consciousness, nose-consciousness, tongue-consciousness, body-consciousness, and mind-consciousness in the same manner and finishes with...] “It is in such a way, monks, that consciousness comes to be in dependence on a dyad.â€? (The Buddha . . . Connected Discourses of the Buddha, vol. 2, pg. 1172) TG #83738 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Mar 5, 2008 11:31 pm Subject: Re: People are like Tornadoes .. Speculative Views on the Abhidhamm... kenhowardau Hi Robert, I don't think we have any major disagreements. Maybe I was trying to too hard to be clever when I read the sutta as saying concepts don't really exist. (We know they don't, of course, but I am prepared to admit the sutta was not addressing that point.) As for Karunadasa writings, I am no authority at all. When Howard posted an extract and suggested K agrues against the ultimate existence of conditioned dhammas I had to admit that it did seem that way. But, as I say, I am no expert, and I don't have the inclination to study his work in detail. I am pleased to hear you say that he does believe in ultimate reality. Good for him! :-) Ken H #83739 From: han tun Date: Thu Mar 6, 2008 2:00 am Subject: Perfections Corner (100) hantun1 Dear All, This is the presentation in installment of The Perfections Leading to Enlightenment by Ajahn Sujin Boriharnwanaket; and translated by Nina van Gorkom. http://www.zolag.co.uk/ - Chapter 6: The Perfection of Patience (continuation) The Commentary to this Sutta, the “Sumangalavilaasinii” explains as to the First Stanza, the first verse: “khantii parama.m tapo titikkhaa, patience, restraint, is the highest ascetism”, that khanti is adhivaasana-khanti. Khanti is a condition for the development of all kusala, whereas impatience conditions the arising of all kinds of evil through citta and then through the body and through speech. Adhivaasana-khanti is endurance with regard to all situations in daily life, to our environment, and this is the highest ascetism. The Commentary explains: “The words ‘nibbaana.m parama.m vadanti Buddhaa, nibbaana is supreme, the Buddhas say’, mean that all Buddhas say that nibbaana is the supreme dhamma in all respects.” There is no other dhamma which is superior to nibbaana, because the other dhammas arise because of conditions, they are present for just a very short moment and then they fall away completely. Naama dhamma and ruupa dhamma arise because of the appropriate conditions just for a moment and then fall away. How then can conditioned dhammas be a refuge? The Buddha said that nibbaana is the supreme dhamma, it is the dhamma through which defilements are eradicated completely, so that they never arise again. We read: “As to the words, ‘na hi pabbajito paruupaghaati, he, verily, is not a recluse who harms another’, this means that a person who harms, afflicts and injures someone else because he lacks adhivaasana khanti, endurance, cannot be called a recluse. As to the word ‘paaruupaghaati, he harms’, this means that he violates siila, because siila is called parama.m, meaning, supreme. It is explained that an ascetic who is vexing another being, who is someone who harms another, ruins his own siila. This means that he cannot be called a recluse.” When a monk who has to observe siila transgresses siila, when he ruins his own siila, he cannot be considered a monk. As regards a lay person, if he applies the teachings, his defilements can be eradicated. He should consider precisely, in all details, his action and speech, he should know whether they affect or harm someone else. Even if he does not utter harsh speech he should know whether he hurts someone else’s feelings. He should have a refined knowledge of his cittas. We read further on in the Commentary: “A person harms someone else because he has no endurance, adhivaasana khanti . If he kills other beings, even gadflies and mosquitos, he cannot be considered a recluse. What is the reason? Because he cannot get rid of impurity. Someone is considered a recluse (pabbajita) because he has got rid of impurities in himself. This is the characteristic of a recluse.” Note: The Commentarey explains khanti as adhivaasana-khanti: patience with regard to one’s environment. To be continued. Metta, Han #83740 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Mar 6, 2008 2:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism XX, 'Knowledge of What is/is not the Path' nilovg Hi Larry, Op 6-mrt-2008, om 4:54 heeft LBIDD@... het volgende geschreven: > One more thought on pain. All pain is unwholesome. Bodily pain is > unwholesome resultant feeling and mental pain is unwholesome kamma ------- N: When we use the term unwholesome, it stands for akusala, so, better not say: all. You differentiate in the second part with Bodily pain is unwholesome resultant feeling and that is correct. > You say: Mental pain is unwholesome kamma, but akusala citta > accompanied by unhappy feeling is not always of the degree of > kamma, motivating evil deeds. Nina. #83741 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Mar 6, 2008 2:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : internal & external realities nilovg Hi James, Op 6-mrt-2008, om 2:06 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > How else is one to determine internal and external > dhammas if it isn't in reference to beings and persons? There is no > other way! That is the way the Abhidhamma describes them! ------ N: Yes, quite right. --------- > > J: But, of course, the bobsy twins don't feel it necessary to provide > any type of explanation or analysis for their rejection of the > existence of beings and persons. Of course, how are they to > determine internal and external dhammas? They can't!!! If they > deny the existence of beings and persons, they cannot directly know > dhammas (internal and external) and they cannot practice > satipatthana (which is to be mindful of internal and external > dhammas!). They disregard what is written in the suttas and what is > written in the Abhidhamma. ------- N: I do not reject the existence of beings and persons. Is this not a subject that is rehashed over again, as Howard says? It was often explained, also by Sarah, that there is no contradiction. We highly value metta and the other Brahmaviharas. We lead social lives and see the value of this . I quote from the Perfections, posted by Han today: Note the last sentence. Cittas should be known. A person is citta, cetasika and rupa, and these do not last. There is nobody who owns citta, but, the Buddha taught us the way to have more understanding. To have a refined knowledge of the cittas. Nina. #83742 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Mar 5, 2008 10:20 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] "becoming otherwise" upasaka_howard Hi, TG - I do agree that the language is suggestive of alteration and change rather than sharp/abrupt beginnings and endings (or discrete jumps). This is just what I was asking about the other day. Of course, the point can be made that it is both gradual alteration *and* sharp cessation and arising, because one can look at continuous flux (over time) as identical with instantaneous (at a single point in time) cessation and arising. Continuous flux implies non-identity at any two points in time. Another source of sutta language that is suggestive of "flowing change" is the various sutta that speak of streams swelling, that leads to rivers swelling, etc. With metta, Howard #83743 From: "matheesha" Date: Thu Mar 6, 2008 3:56 am Subject: Re: Sankharo in Dependent Origination. Kamma or not? matheesha333 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > > Dear Matheesha, > > ---In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" > wrote: > > I have been pondering this issue for a recent dhamma talk. It seems > > that the Buddha has talked of understanding the DO at various > levels of penetration. > >>> > Various levels of penetraton of DO are > Dhammafollower, Stream Enterer, Once returner, Non, Arahat, Buddha (2 > levels). > > From the suttas it appears to me that different levels of > understanding do not refer to technicalities but to the EFFECTS IT > HAS on reducing greed/anger/delusion. > > If you read MN9 it shows MANY views each of each is capable of > leading to Arahatship. One of which is that sankhara (#2) in DO is > kaya/vaci/citta sankharo and vinnana (#3) in DO is 6 consciousnesses. > > > > >>>>>>>> > > At much deeper levels of penetration there is sankhara as in mind, > > body and speech and vinnana as in patisandhi vinnana. > >>> > > Is there a sutta which says that Vinnana in #3 is patisandhi vinnana? > The Mahanidana sutta (DN) talks of vinnana (and nama-rupa) in relation to the origination of a foetus. So even though not named as such, is refering to patisandhi vinnana. This level of direct experience is only possible for someone with highly developed abilities. Hence different levels of penetration. with metta Matheesha #83744 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Mar 6, 2008 4:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cittas in a mind-door process (was, F/W message from Saengchan) jonoabb Hi Saengchan In an email to Sarah you asked: > And about the process of the mind door, I mean those series of > cittas eg. atita phawong, phawongka jarana until chavana-cittas.At what > level of panya can they be understood? Thank you. > I think you are asking about knowing each of the various cittas in a mind-door process in order. As far as I know, this is not mentioned in any of the descriptions of the vipassana naanas (stages of mundane insight before sotapatimagga). I imagine such insight would require an extremely high level of panna, perhaps greater even than is required to attain enlightenment. What is your own view on this, and what is your interest in this particular question? Jon PS Regarding: > Thank you very much for your explaination. I appreciate it . Well, I > don't know how to write my expanation down in that website , but I will > take your advice by asking Sukin to explain how to do that when I see him > next time. I do hope you manage to get yourself subscribed as a member soon. #83745 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Mar 6, 2008 4:43 am Subject: Re: Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : internal & external realities scottduncan2 Dear Tep, James, Alex and Nina, I agree with Tep who says: "I think we have a worthwhile subject of discussion, but this subject is difficult to handle." Scott: I like what Jon wrote to me awhile back, something about, to paraphrase, how each of us sees things the way we do because that is how we see them - a result of conditions and accumulations. I think that this very much applies here. I think that 'external realities' is a difficult subject to handle, as Tep says. The way I think of it is that 'others' are no more substantial than 'I' am. And I mean, in the end and at the level of discourse beyond which there is no further discourse - at the level of paramattha dhammas. If one takes the statement, 'Everyone wants to be happy', one is considering external realities. At the level of discourse where paramattha dhammas are considered, the above statement refers to a reality ( say, kusala dhammas - 'happiness') and relates to the development of a reality (say, loving kindness or compassion) by way of something that is not real ('everyone'). When I think of 'beings' I imagine that, 'out there' there are countless 'streams' which must consist of the same kinds of realities, conditions, and accumulations as exist within the only 'stream' that is truly available to 'my' experience - my own. In other words, it is a given that the 'other', while 'not me', is 'like me'. At the level of discourse where paramattha dhammas are considered, the 'other' is nothing more than a separate set of realities and conditions and accumulations. Most important, the 'other' is entirely sundered from my own experience, control and influence. I can have no control over any effect I might have on an 'other', for one thing; the 'internal' realities that make up the 'other' can never be objects of understanding for me. Visible object is not 'other', for example, it is ruupa. 'Other' is, for me, (or, to be precise, from the vantage point of the level of discourse where paramattha dhammas are considered) naama. When it comes to 'beings', of which so much is made, I think that it comes down initially to knowing the difference between naama and ruupa. This has to be understood intellectually and theoretically first prior to any development of pa~n~naa in relation to these realities. And this distinction, as is shown by the struggle in the discussions, is not at all an easy one to make. 'Being' is simply a designation. As such, it is naama. It is internal, not external. Sincerely, Scott. #83746 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Mar 6, 2008 4:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] feelings jonoabb Dear Ven Sir > Just an observation I made today.Ajan Sujin always uses the example > of "seeing" as being the prime example of conditioned phenomena that > we fail to understand. > but walking around Chiang Mai today - having many things to do - it > was clear to me that feelings/emotions were the primary objects of > attention. > Perhaps this is because, as monks, we are expected to walk with > downcast eyes. So there's not much to catch the attention except bits > that you might trip over or walk into.Seeing is just an uninteresting > blurr unless one happens to concentrate on one particular object or > event. > But feelings are really clear whatever is going on around me.And > feelings to me seem a lot more complex than seeing. > But perhaps I've missed the point again - I'm only just beginning > to 'feel my way into this approach to Dhamma.' (pun not intended). > Any thoughts or feelings about this one? > Many thanks for sharing your thoughts on this. When the sense- and mind-doors, or the ayatanas or dhatus, are mentioned in the suttas, the almost invariable order given is first the 5 sense-doors starting with eye-door and then the mind-door. I'm not sure what the reason for this particular order of things is, but perhaps it reflects the fact that our view of the world is strongly influenced by the experiences thought the eye-door. I think Ajan Sujin would say that as far as satipatthana is concerned, no object is to be regarded as more "primary" than the others. This means both that none is to be valued (and hence, to be "chosen") over the others, and that none is to be considered more likely (and hence, to be expected) to become the object than the others. > One humourous episode I would like to share with you all. I had lunch > with David and his 18 year old daughter Chandra.(Some of you met them > last Saturday).David and I were indulging our gloom and doom bit > about the world's political stage. Chandra just chirped up and > said, "It's all only cittas and cetasikas." > Not a bad attitude to have to the world's political stage, if you ask me ;-)) Jon #83747 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Mar 6, 2008 5:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Alone with Dhamma, Ch 4, no 2. .. Transformation into Sotapanna?.. jonoabb Hi Tep Tep Sastri wrote: > To progress from a correct understanding of what is heard (or read) one > must test the idea by experimenting (in a real life situation) and carefully > observing an outcome, and by verifying the outcome with the previous > understanding ( the book knowledge). In short, one gains direct > understanding by trial and error. Such trial-and-error verification of the > dhamma will lead to direct knowledge of the truth/reality. > To my understanding of the development of insight, there is no particular "testing" or "experimenting" to be done. There is only the gradual development of understanding, starting with understanding at an intellectual level. In some suttas there is reference to reflecting on and pondering over what has been thus understood, but I don't think this refers to a deliberate activity of any kind. What has been heard and understood can be verified without undertaking any "practice" in that regard. > Jon: However, right view and other kusala can develop notwithstanding > that the tendency to wrong view still remains as a latent tendency. > > T: At Stream-entry there is right wisdom (sammappaññaya) that > abandons doubts and self identification (views). Before right wisdom has > arisen, 15 of the 20 self identifications may be abandoned and some are > not. Is the monk's view at that stage called right view? Or, should it be > called 75%-right view? Or, should it still be called wrong view? > The right view that accompanies sotapatimagga citta is panna cetasika and is pure right view, but is not as highly developed as the panna that accompanies the magga citta of the arahant. Whenever kusala citta arises it is pure kusala citta. None of the accumulated aksuala tendencies manifest; they are all latent at that moment. Jon #83748 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Mar 6, 2008 5:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: mettaa. the present moment ... Are We Real ? .. jonoabb Hi Alex Alex wrote: >>> To my understanding, dhammas are considered to be "realities" in >>> the sense that they are the same for every sentient being, through >>> all time. >>> > > Not always! > > For example a bee will see the same thing differently than a human > being. The perceptions of forms are different. > I agree that perceptions of forms are different as between different beings. But that is not what I mean by dhammas being the same for every sentient being. Perceptions of forms is not the same as experiencing of visible object; it is a function of a lot of *thinking about* the visible object that has been experienced. >> This being so, then seeing consciousness is seeing consciousness >> and visible object is visible object regardless of the plane >> (human, animal, deva, etc) in which the seeing consciousness and >> the visible object arise. The same would also apply for, for >> example, kusala and akusala citta. >> > > What you appear to say sounds like "Direct Realism" , something the > Buddha didn't teach. > I'm afraid I don't know what "Direct Realism" is (but it sounds bad ;-)) > Two different beings will percieved two different "things". The more > their organs are different, the more different perceptions they will > have. > > A blind man, a colour blind man and a bea will see the visual shapes > DIFFERENTLY. > > > Furthermore, perceptions are dependently arisen, based on the sense > base, sense object, contact and consciousness and all the cetasikas. > > These things vary from being to being. Technically, two people cannot > see EXACTLY the same things. They will always see the "same thing" > from two different angles. > No particular disagreement from me with the above. But it does not relate to my earlier statement that "dhammas are considered to be "realities" in the sense that they are the same for every sentient being, through all time". Sound is sound regardless of whether, for example, one understands the languages being spoken; taste is taste regardless of whether one likes what is being tasted; attachment is attachment; and so on. > The whole point of Buddhist teaching on epistemology is that since > everything is dependently arisen, it cannot be absolute, static and > unchanging. Since nothing is unchanging, it cannot be percieved in an > absolutely the same way by two different people. Heck, an object > isn't even the same for two consequetive moments. So how can it be > dhammas are considered to be "realities" in the sense that they are > the same for every sentient being, through all time. > Dhammas are the same for everyone in the sense that the unique characteristic of each different is the same. Does that make sense? Jon #83749 From: han tun Date: Thu Mar 6, 2008 5:30 am Subject: Patthaana (17) hantun1 Dear All, This is the continuation of (1). Root condition (hetu-paccaya). We have now come to the last root of the Root condition. “Amoha” In the classification of cetasikas, amoha is not listed together with alobha and adosa, but shown separately at the end as pa~n~nindriya. Alobha and adosa belong to the group of 19 sobha.na-saadhaara.na cetasikas (sense-sphere beautiful mental factors) which associate with 24 kaama-sobha.na cittas (sense-sphere beautiful consciousness). But not all kaama-sobha.na cittas have pa~n~naa element. Thus, amoha which is the pa~n~naa cetasika cannot associated with all of the 19 sobha.na-saadhaara.na cetasikas. Therefore amoha is shown separately as pa~n~nindriya at the end of the list. An extract from The Essence of Buddha Abhidhamma. Quote: [Pa~n~naa is wisdom or insight, and indriya is the controlling faculty. Pa~n~nindriya has the control over the understanding of things as they really are, i.e., in the light of anicca (impermanence), dukkha (suffering) and anatta (not-self). Because it overcomes ignorance, it is called amoha (non-delusion or wisdom). Because it can remove the veil of moha from clouding man’s mental eyes and throws away the darkness cast by moha (avijjaa), it is called vijjaa (higher knowledge). Pa~n~nindriya is normally called ‘pa~n~na cetasika’. In Abhidhamma, pa~n~na, ~naana and amoha are synonyms. Amoha is one of the three moral roots. As one of the four means of accomplishing one’s ends (iddhipaada), pa~n~naa takes the name of vimamsa (analytical wisdom). When purified and cultivated by samaadhi, pa~n~naa assumes the powerful role of abhi~n~naa (supernormal knowledge). When highly developed, pa~n~naa becomes a factor of enlightenment (bojjhanga) under the name of dhamma-vicaya (investigation of the truth), and also a component of the Noble Eightfold Path under the name of sammaa-ditthi (right view). The culmination of pa~n~naa is the omniscience of a Buddha.] End Quote. ------------------------------ An extract from A Comprehensive Manual ofAbhidhamma. Quote: [The wisdom faculty: pa~n~naa is wisdom, or knowing things as they really are. It is here called a faculty because it exercises predominance in comprehending things as they really are. In the Abhidhamma, the three terms – wisdom (pa~n~naa), knowledge (~naana), and non-delusion (amoha) – are used synonymously. Wisdom has the characteristic of penetrating things according to their intrinsic nature (yathaa-sabhaava-pa.tivedha lakkhanaa). Its function is to illuminate the objective field (visaya-obhaasana rasa) like a lamp. It is manifested as non-bewilderment (a-sammoha upatthaana). Its proximate cause is wise attention (yoniso manasikaara padathaanaa).] End Quote. ------------------------------ Han: You will see that the proximate cause of moha is un-wise attention (a-yoniso-manasikaara), and the proximate cause of amoha is wise attention (yoniso-manasikaara). So what is manasikaara? According to Dr. Mehm Tin Mon, Quote: [Manasikaara is the mind’s first ‘confrontation with an object’ and ‘directs the associated mental concomitants to the object.’ It is, therefore, the prominent factor in the two avajjana cittas, namely, pa~ncadvaara-avajjana citta, and manodvaara-avajjana citta, i.e., advertence at the five sense doors and advertence at the mind door. These two states of consciousness, breaking through the life-continuum (bhavanga citta), form the first stage in the cognition process. As the rudder of a ship directs her to her destination, so manasikaara directs the citta and its concomitants towards the sense object. Without manasikaara, the mind is like a rudderless ship and it cannot be aware of an object. In a more general sense, manasikaara appears frequently in the suttas as yoniso-manasikaara (wise attention or wise reflection) and a-yoniso-manasikaara (unwise attention or unwise reflection). Wise attention leads to moral consciousness, whereas unwise attention leads to immoral consciousness.] End Quote. Han: Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi made an interesting distinction between manasikaara and vitakka. He wrote: "manasikaara should be distinguished from vitakka: while the former turns its concomitants towards the object, the latter applies them onto the object. Manasikaara is an indispensable cognitive factor present in all states of consciousness; vitakka is a specialized factor which is not indispensable to cognition.” ------------------------------ Another extract on the subject of wisdom. It is from The Question of King Milinda (Milindapa~nha). Quote: [King Milinda said: “Revered Naagasena, what is the distinguishing mark of wisdom?” “Earlier I said, sire, that cutting off is a distinguishing mark of wisdom. But illuminating is also a distinguishing mark of wisdom.” “How revered sir, is illuminating a distinguishing mark of wisdom?” “Sire, when wisdom is uprising it dispels the darkness of ignorance, produces the effulgence of clear knowledge, makes the light of knowing appear, and makes plain the Four Noble Truths. In consequence, one who is devoted to mental training sees what is impermanent, or what is suffering, or what is not-self by means of right wisdom.” “Make a simile.” “As, sire, a man might bring a lamp into a dark house and when he has put it down, the lamp dispels the darkness, produces effulgence, makes light appear and makes plain the forms of things – even so, sire, when wisdom is uprising it dispels the darkness of ignorance, produces the effulgence of clear knowledge, makes the light of knowing appear, and makes plain the Four Noble Truths. In consequence, one who is devoted to mental training sees what is impermanent, or what is suffering, or what is not-self by means of right wisdom. It is thus, sire, that illuminating is a distinguishing mark of wisdom.”] End Quote. ------------------------------ Before we close the condition of Hetu paccaya, I would like to leave a question with the readers: Which comes first: concentration or pa~n~naa? For the answer, kindly read the following sutta: AN 3.73 Sakka Sutta, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.073.than.html Han: This is the end of (1) Root condition (hetu-paccaya). From next post, we will start (2) Object condition (aaramma.na-paccaya). metta, Han #83750 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Mar 6, 2008 5:33 am Subject: Re: Beginner's Abhidhamma .. internal & external realities .. Typos dhammanusara Hi James, - Thank you for the continuing interest and for an excellent question. I used to wonder the same. > James: ... why do you suppose the Abhidhamma > defines "external" realities only in terms of beings and persons? In > other words, why couldn't "external" realities also be trees, rocks, > clouds, etc. In short, why couldn't the "external" realities be any > of the objects of the five senses? I find it interesting, and perhaps > telling, that it is limited to beings and persons. What do you think? > T: I think it is because both internal and external dhammas (such as the ayatanas, consciousness, rupa, cetasika, ..) are found only in beings (sattas, e.g. humans, devas), and Nibbana is the supreme goal for instructed beings (disciples of the noble ones) who contemplate these internal and external dhammas on the three characteristics. However, as the greatest Teacher who knew that his audiences had various backgrounds, interests and intelligence levels, thus in some suttas he also talked about external things too like leaves on a tree, monkey (who moves from one branch to another), mountains (like the Sineru), the universe, etc. They too can be objects of the senses for practitioners, but not as effective for understanding dukkha and its cessation, I guess. Tep === #83751 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Mar 6, 2008 12:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] feelings upasaka_howard Hi, Jon (and Bhante) - In a message dated 3/6/2008 7:52:15 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, jonabbott@... writes: > One humourous episode I would like to share with you all. I had lunch > with David and his 18 year old daughter Chandra.(Some of you met them > last Saturday).David and I were indulging our gloom and doom bit > about the world's political stage. Chandra just chirped up and > said, "It's all only cittas and cetasikas." > Not a bad attitude to have to the world's political stage, if you ask me ;-)) ================================ Except for doing something about the variety of outright social abuses and deficiencies extant throughout the world - the murder and starvation in places such as Darfur, the slavery that still exists, the forced prostitution and abuse of women in much of the world, the violent aggression unleashed by nations and "movements," and the lack of adequate food, shelter, and medical care for many across the planet, including "the West". The mental pushing away of such things by 'chirping' "It's all only cittas and cetasikas" somehow reminds me of some other religionists' refrain of "It's God's will." With metta, Howard P. S I know, of without the slightest doubt, Jon, that you are a very good and caring person who would do whatever is possible to alleviate the suffering of others. I'm not, therefore, saying *anything* with regard to you personally but only with regard to the care that should be taken in how we think about things. There is a genuine danger in forgetting about people when we get overly "ultimate". #83752 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Mar 6, 2008 6:31 am Subject: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 3, no 6. nilovg Dear friends, We read in the “Kindred Sayings” (IV, Kindred Sayings on Sense, Ch 2, § 71) that the Buddha said that whoever of the monks could not understand the arising and destruction, the satisfaction and the misery of the sixfold sphere of contact, did not live the righteous life and was far from this Dhamma and Discipline. One of the monks said that he could not understand these things and was in despair. The Buddha said to him: “Now, what do you think, monk? Do you regard these thus: ‘This is mine. This am I. This is myself’ ?” “No indeed, lord.” “Well said, monk. And herein, monk, by right understanding as it really is: ‘This eye is not mine. This am I not. This is not myself,’ the eye will have been rightly seen. That is the end of dukkha. So also as regards mind... That is the end of dukkha.’ The sixfold sphere of contact are the åyatanas: the five sense organs and the five classes of objects experienced by means of them and also mind-base or consciousness (including all cittas) and mind-object (dhammåyatana). Mind-object includes subtle rúpas (other than the sense organs and sense objects), cetasikas and nibbåna. Åyatanas are realities that contact each other, such as eye-sense and visible object, they are the conditions for the arising of seeing. Therefore the word phassåyatana is used: sphere of contact. Phassa is contact. We read in the Commentary to this sutta, the “Sårattappakasiní” that the monk who did not understand these ayatanas felt that he was lost, far away from the Dhamma. The Buddha was thinking what kammathåna, meditation subject, would be helpful for that monk who had no energy for the kammathånas of the elements (dhatus), kasinas or other subjects. He thought that the kammathåna of the åyatanas would be a support, a helpful condition (sappaya) for that monk. He then asked whether the eye is I, mine or myself, etc. And so on for the other åyatanas. The term “meditation subject”, kammathåna, is used for the meditation subjects of samatha, but also for the objects of vipassanå, and these are all objects appearing through the six doorways. The Buddha spoke to that monk about the objects of vipassanå. There are objects impinging on the six doors time and again but most of the time there is forgetfulness of realities. Sometimes there is mindfulness of the reality which appears and then we may notice that such moments are different from our usual forgetfulness. Acharn Sujin said: “Nobody can force the arising of sati. It can arise unexpectedly, but if one tries to force its arising there will not be right understanding of realities. When it arises because of its own conditions, one will know that it is sati, not ‘me’.” Gradually we can learn the difference between forgetfulness and awareness of realities. Although there is not yet clear understanding of realities, there can be a beginning of noticing or “studying” with awareness different nåmas and rúpas which appear. Are we patient enough to study with awareness all the details of our daily life? We may not like it to be aware of unpleasant feeling, or we may not find it interesting enough to know seeing which appears now or hearing which appears now. If there is patience there can be careful consideration of the Dhamma and there can be a beginning of understanding of the present reality. The only way to have less ignorance is mindfulness of the reality which appears now, even if that is ignorance or unawareness. Courage, perseverance and patience are indispensable for the development of right understanding. ****** Nina. #83753 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Mar 6, 2008 6:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Real Experience of Abhidhamma Questions. Daily Life. nilovg Dear Alex, Op 6-mrt-2008, om 2:57 heeft Alex het volgende geschreven: > This question can be asked about mundane, day to day states as well. > When citta ceases and before another appears (remember two cittas > cannot coexist at one time, one has to cease before the other > appears), > > 1) WHERE are conditions (such as Kamma) stored? ------- N: They are not stored, as you said yourself before: there is no store consciousness. Store suggests something that stays, that is wrong. ------- > > 2) How does no longer existing citta pass conditions to not yet > arisen citta? ------ N: The word 'pass' would have to be used in a figurative sense. One citta falls away and it conditions the arising of the next one and thus, there is an unbroken series of cittas. That is why accumulations can go on to the next citta, but these accumulations are not static, they change, new accumulations are added all the time. ------- > > 3) If conditions are located ONLY in the presently existent citta, > then they are supposed to go extingished in a mind moments time, and > we would all be ParaNibbana'ed countless aeons ago. ------- N: No, they go on to the following citta. We speak about mental realities, and it does not help to have pictorial ideas. We see that past kamma produces different results for different people. I quote: ------ If you want to know in every detail how this is possible, it could lead to madness. Nina. #83754 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Mar 6, 2008 6:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Individuals and Aggregations (Resending) nilovg Hi Howard Op 5-mrt-2008, om 17:52 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > The behavior of > aggregations is different in kind and degree from the behavior of > individuals, though > it is entirely based on the individual behavior. Without > distinguishing > phenomena from aggregations of phenomena, our view of reality is > radically > incomplete and drastically distorted. ----- Howard in another post to Nina: But a person is *not* namas and rupas. It is an *aggregation* of such,and the whole acts differently from its parts. ------- N: But the aggregation breaks up at each moment. I do not deny that nama conditions rupa and rupa conditions nama. See my Abh in Daily Life: < The Visuddhimagga (XVIII, 34) explains: Furthermore, nåma has no efficient power, it cannot occur by its own efficient power... It does not eat, it does not drink, it does not speak, it does not adopt postures. And rúpa is without efficient power; it cannot occur by its own efficient power. For it has no desire to eat, it has no desire to drink, it has no desire to speak, it has no desire to adopt postures. But rather it is when supported by rúpa that nåma occurs; and it is when supported by nåma that rúpa occurs. When nåma has the desire to eat, the desire to drink, the desire to speak, the desire to adopt a posture, it is rúpa that eats, drinks, speaks and adopts a posture.... Furthermore (XVIII, 36) we read: And just as men depend upon A boat for traversing the sea, So does the mental body need The matter-body for occurrence. And as the boat depends upon The men for traversing the sea, So does the matter-body need The mental body for occurrence. Depending each upon the other The boat and men go on the sea. And so do mind and matter both Depend the one upon the other.> ------- We may cling to the idea of aggregation and that is why it is beneficial to hear again and again: see the disconnection, their impermanence. As Sarah quoted from a commentary: Date: Thu Mar 6, 2008 6:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] feelings nilovg Hi Howard, Op 6-mrt-2008, om 14:34 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > There is a genuine danger in forgetting about people when we get > overly "ultimate". ------ N: This expresses your concern which I saw in the other posts. Well, understanding helps all kinds of kusala. Read the Perfections Han is posting, read the book. (did you ever received the one we sent you?) Understnding helps patience, tolerance, patience in the circumstances of life, when people are contrarious, when we have great or small ailments. I hope you and Rita are feeling better. I can quote pages and pages from the Perfections to show this. Nina. #83756 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Mar 6, 2008 1:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Individuals and Aggregations (Resending) upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 3/6/2008 9:50:42 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard Op 5-mrt-2008, om 17:52 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > The behavior of > aggregations is different in kind and degree from the behavior of > individuals, though > it is entirely based on the individual behavior. Without > distinguishing > phenomena from aggregations of phenomena, our view of reality is > radically > incomplete and drastically distorted. ----- Howard in another post to Nina: But a person is *not* namas and rupas. It is an *aggregation* of such,and the whole acts differently from its parts. ------- N: But the aggregation breaks up at each moment ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, indeed! I certainly agree. :-) ====================== With metta, Howard #83757 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Mar 6, 2008 2:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] feelings upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 3/6/2008 9:55:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Op 6-mrt-2008, om 14:34 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > There is a genuine danger in forgetting about people when we get > overly "ultimate". ------ N: This expresses your concern which I saw in the other posts. Well, understanding helps all kinds of kusala. Read the Perfections Han is posting, read the book. (did you ever received the one we sent you?) ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, of course - a long while ago. I had thanked you for it. :-) ------------------------------------------------ Understnding helps patience, tolerance, patience in the circumstances of life, when people are contrarious, when we have great or small ailments. -------------------------------------------------- Howard I agree, Nina. but it needs to be full, well-rounded understanding. ------------------------------------------------- I hope you and Rita are feeling better. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Thank you. :-) Yes, a bit better, but far from adequately better - especially me. Our internist is away at the moment, and I may try to see an otolaryngologist (ear, nose, and throat doctor) soon unless my throat irritation and bronchial-tube congestion clear up quickly. (It's been going on far too long.) -------------------------------------------------- I can quote pages and pages from the Perfections to show this. ------------------------------------------------- Howard: I'm a "big supporter" of understanding, Nina. I don't need persuasion in that regard. ;-) ------------------------------------------------- Nina. ========================= With metta, Howard #83758 From: "connie" Date: Thu Mar 6, 2008 7:14 am Subject: Vism.XVII,244 Vism.XVII,245 nichiconn Path of Purity, p.685: "Order due" is of three kinds: the order of arising, the order of removing, the order of instruction. Of these, the order of the arising of the vices is not stated directly owing to the absence of the first arising of this beginningless round of births. But indirectly, speaking of one word generally the conviction of eternalism and annihilation is preceded by a clinging to the self; then to him who clings to the idea that this self is eternal there arises the grasping of rite and ritual for the purpose of purifying the self. The grasping of sense-desires arises to him who does not look to the next world, and who adheres to the idea that the self is annihilated. Hence first the grasping to a theory of the self, and the grasping of views, rite and ritual, and of sense-desires. Thus is the order of arising in one world. Of them, the grasping of views and the next are put away first, being killed by the path of stream-winning; later the grasping of sense-desires, being killed by the way of saintship. This is the order of their removal. #83759 From: TGrand458@... Date: Thu Mar 6, 2008 4:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] "becoming otherwise" TGrand458@... Hi Howard In a message dated 3/6/2008 4:20:56 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, upasaka@... writes: Hi, TG - I do agree that the language is suggestive of alteration and change rather than sharp/abrupt beginnings and endings (or discrete jumps). This is just what I was asking about the other day. Of course, the point can be made that it is both gradual alteration *and* sharp cessation and arising, because one can look at continuous flux (over time) as identical with instantaneous (at a single point in time) cessation and arising. Continuous flux implies non-identity at any two points in time. ............................................ TG: Right. There is nothing that is a "self same thing" because there is continuous alteration due to the dynamics of conditionality. Conditionality and impermanence in this regard both point to nonself. (But as I see it, conditionality and impermanence are just two different ways of looking at the same process.) Conditionality shows nonself because it shows that the structure of "things" is dependent on other "things." I.E., formations owe "everything they are" to something else. Impermanence shows nonself because it shows that these "things/formations," being mobile and continuously altering, are not actually "things" at all. They are just coreless alterations. Ultimately, to isolate anything, including the elements, is to (mentally) take them "out of reality" and to mistakenly encapsulate them as entities. Whether intentional or not, this is what happens. ............................................. Another source of sutta language that is suggestive of "flowing change" is the various sutta that speak of streams swelling, that leads to rivers swelling, etc. .................................................... TG: Exactly! There are many examples in the Suttas that project the "flowing" and "gradual change" viewpoint. But this ... "becoming otherwise" and the "changing while persisting" are certainly two strong ones that are hard to disregard. And yet, I find nothing in the Suttas that would point to phenomena that "cease right after they arise" with no apparent causal factor other than "their innate characteristics." (Which don't actually exist of course.) I think this Sutta points out, rather well, that impermanence is "forged along" in accordance with conditionality interactions (and altering structures.) Thanks for the comments. TG OUT #83760 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Mar 6, 2008 9:16 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Alone with Dhamma, Ch 4, no 2. .. Transformation into Sotapanna?.. dhammanusara Dear Jonathan, - Thank you very much for having been patient and kind to me since the day I joined DSG. I think our main difference in the Dhamma understanding is about "practice". And that one most-important word neatly wraps up our long Dhamma discussion -- IMHANAO there is no hope that we'll ever change that. Your friend, Tep ========== #83761 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Mar 6, 2008 9:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : internal & external realities dhammanusara Dear Nina, - I also found the 84000.org Website down on the day I posted my meassge. Luckily, there is another good Thai Website for online Tipitaka in both Thai and the Pali language. The numbering of sections or paragraphs is exactly the same for the two Websites. http://budsir.mahidol.ac.th/ Regards, Tep === #83762 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Mar 6, 2008 10:22 am Subject: Re: Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : internal & external realities dhammanusara Dear Scott, - First of all, I want to thank you for your Pali and other background information you studiously provided for me in the past discussions. I'll always think of that useful assistance. >Scott: When it comes to 'beings', of which so much is made, I think that it comes down initially to knowing the difference between naama and ruupa. This has to be understood intellectually and theoretically first prior to any development of pa~n~naa in relation to these realities. And this distinction, as is shown by the struggle in the discussions, is not at all an easy one to make. 'Being' is simply a designation. As such, it is naama. It is internal, not external. T: Your whole message boils down to just another reinstating of what you believe and want to believe in. I do not see it as a direct answer to James' questions and concerns. It was also allright, quite allright, when you ignored the questions. Indeed it is allright for us here at DSG to differ in our beliefs and continue to do so for many years to come. :-) Yours truly, Tep === #83763 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Mar 6, 2008 10:34 am Subject: Re: Patthaana (16) dhammanusara Dae Han, - The following reply is gratefully accepted with a "yes, but ...". See an explanation below, please. ........................... Han: Yes, it is an antidote for vihimsa vitakka. But I do not think it can destroy the underlying tendency to resistance (patighaanusaya) if a person is still a puthujjana. Anusayas are difficult to destroy. Ditthaanusaya and vicikicchaanusaya are destroyed by Sotaapanna; kaamaraagaanusaya and patighaanusaya by Anaagaami; bhavaraagaanusaya, maanaausaya and avijjaanusaya only by Arahants. ........................... T: I have read a few suttas, especially those in Itivuttaka, about 'adosa' being the unique achievement of Anaagaamins: in whom no anger can be found. But, aren't patighaanusaya and vihimsa-vitakka destroyed as the consequence of zero anger? Regards, Tep === #83764 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Mar 6, 2008 8:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] "becoming otherwise" upasaka_howard Hi, TG - We're getting closer in position. The differences that remain seem to involve the following, taken in order of their occurrence in your remarks below: 1) I don't see conditionality and impermanence as two different perspectives on the same process. I see the two as related but different, and I see impermanence as a consequence of conditionality, and not vice-versa. 2) You say below "Ultimately, to isolate anything, including the elements, is to (mentally) take them "out of reality" and to mistakenly encapsulate them as entities." I agree with you if by 'isolate' you mean "separate", for they are relationally inseparable. But I disagree if in any way you are implying indistinguishablilty. At some point in time, hardness (for example) may be in the midst of being object of consciousness, and later on, warmth may be. They are distinguishable and they do not co-occur as object of consciousness. Also, contact conditions feeling, and feeling conditions craving, but contact, feeling, and craving are all distinguishable, each from each. 3) The expression "changing while persisting" is a misleading and (to me even) a dangerous one. As soon as there is change at all, what was no longer is and has not persisted. I think, for example, of heat. If it is "still heat" but less intense (for example) than before, then it is "the same" only in the sense of falling into the same recognitional category (of "heat"), but, in fact: what was, no longer is. Moreover, since all phenomena are not things-in-themselves, but things-in-relation, the alteration of one thing is the alteration of all, and thus it may be closest to the truth to say that nothing remains the same for even an instant. With metta, Howard In a message dated 3/6/2008 12:15:05 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@... writes: Hi Howard In a message dated 3/6/2008 4:20:56 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, upasaka@... writes: Hi, TG - I do agree that the language is suggestive of alteration and change rather than sharp/abrupt beginnings and endings (or discrete jumps). This is just what I was asking about the other day. Of course, the point can be made that it is both gradual alteration *and* sharp cessation and arising, because one can look at continuous flux (over time) as identical with instantaneous (at a single point in time) cessation and arising. Continuous flux implies non-identity at any two points in time. ............................................ TG: Right. There is nothing that is a "self same thing" because there is continuous alteration due to the dynamics of conditionality. Conditionality and impermanence in this regard both point to nonself. (But as I see it, conditionality and impermanence are just two different ways of looking at the same process.) Conditionality shows nonself because it shows that the structure of "things" is dependent on other "things." I.E., formations owe "everything they are" to something else. Impermanence shows nonself because it shows that these "things/formations," being mobile and continuously altering, are not actually "things" at all. They are just coreless alterations. Ultimately, to isolate anything, including the elements, is to (mentally) take them "out of reality" and to mistakenly encapsulate them as entities. Whether intentional or not, this is what happens. ............................................. Another source of sutta language that is suggestive of "flowing change" is the various sutta that speak of streams swelling, that leads to rivers swelling, etc. .................................................... TG: Exactly! There are many examples in the Suttas that project the "flowing" and "gradual change" viewpoint. But this ... "becoming otherwise" and the "changing while persisting" are certainly two strong ones that are hard to disregard. And yet, I find nothing in the Suttas that would point to phenomena that "cease right after they arise" with no apparent causal factor other than "their innate characteristics." (Which don't actually exist of course.) I think this Sutta points out, rather well, that impermanence is "forged along" in accordance with conditionality interactions (and altering structures.) Thanks for the comments. TG OUT #83765 From: han tun Date: Thu Mar 6, 2008 2:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (16) hantun1 Dear Friend Tep, > > Han: Yes, it is an antidote for vihimsa vitakka. But I do not think it can destroy the underlying tendency to resistance (patighaanusaya) if a person is still a puthujjana. Anusayas are difficult to destroy. Ditthaanusaya and vicikicchaanusaya are destroyed by Sotaapanna; kaamaraagaanusaya and patighaanusaya by Anaagaami; bhavaraagaanusaya, maanaausaya and avijjaanusaya only by Arahants. > Tep: I have read a few suttas, especially those in Itivuttaka, about 'adosa' being the unique achievement of Anaagaamins: in whom no anger can be found. But, aren't patighaanusaya and vihimsa-vitakka destroyed as the consequence of zero anger? Han: In Burmese Abhidhamma books, there are three levels of kilesa. (1) Viitikkama kilesa, which means transgression. A man is so angry that he abuses verbally, or he hits the other man physically. This stage of kilesa is controlled by siila. (2) Pariyutthaana kilesa. A man is angry, but he keeps the anger within himself, without outward explosion. This stage of kilesa is controlled by samaadhi. (3) Anusaya kilesa. It is the underlying tendency for anger. This can be controlled temporarily by vipassanaa ~naana, and destroyed permanently by magga ~naana. We consider that vihimsa-vitakka belongs to pariyutthaana level. So it can be controlled by adosa or loving-kindness. But patighaanusaya can only be controlled temporarily by vipassanaa ~naana, and destroyed permanently by magga ~naana. You said “zero anger.” You will get zero anger only when patighaanusaya is destroyed completely. Respectfully, Han #83766 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Mar 6, 2008 3:28 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (16) dhammanusara Dear Friend Han, - Sadhu! Sadhu! Thank you very much for the convincing explanation. > Han: > We consider that vihimsa-vitakka belongs to > pariyutthaana level. So it can be controlled by adosa > or loving-kindness. But patighaanusaya can only be > controlled temporarily by vipassanaa ~naana, and > destroyed permanently by magga ~naana. > > You said "zero anger." You will get zero anger only > when patighaanusaya is destroyed completely. > Warm regards, Tep === #83767 From: "Alex" Date: Thu Mar 6, 2008 3:33 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Real Experience of Abhidhamma Questions. Daily Life. truth_aerator Dear Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > ------- > N: Store suggests something that stays, that is wrong. > ------- >>> Not nesseserily. Imagine a warehouse, goods come in and go out. Furthermore, of course this storehouse consciousness DOES change. Remember that some rebirths in Arupa planes LAST for 60-84 MK and rebirth's there can happen multiple times. This doesn't remove the impermanence though. It is still impermanent. I see NO problem with kammic storehouse (call it Kamma, or Sankhara storehouse, or Alaya Vinnana) - the fact is that past bad/good kamma DOES stay (although it undergoes continious changes and is anicca- dukkha-anatta). Lots of Metta, Alex #83769 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Mar 6, 2008 4:22 pm Subject: Re: Patthaana (17) dhammanusara Hi Han, - In my unsophisticated opinion (IMUO) the term pa~n~naa in the Abhidhamma literature is difficult to understand. Question 1 : Can you find pa~n~nindriya in a non-ariyan (puthujjana)? Question 2 : Is pa~n~nindriya the same as abhi~n~naa? The extracts below should give you a clue why I asked the two questions. ................... EBA : "Pa~n~naa is wisdom or insight. When purified and cultivated by samaadhi, pa~n~naa assumes the powerful role of abhi~n~naa. EBA: "Pa~n~nindriya has the control over the understanding of things as they really are. Because it overcomes ignorance, it is called amoha". CMA: "In the Abhidhamma, the three terms – wisdom (pa~n~naa), knowledge (~naana), and non-delusion (amoha) – are used synonymously". EBA = "The Essence of Buddha Abhidhamma" CMA = "A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma" .................. Tep === #83770 From: "Alex" Date: Thu Mar 6, 2008 4:22 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: mettaa. the present moment ... Are We Real ? .. truth_aerator Dear Jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: Alex: What you appear to say sounds like "Direct Realism" , something the Buddha didn't teach. > > > I'm afraid I don't know what "Direct Realism" is (but it sounds bad ;-)) > This is how I understand them -> Direct Realism (aka Naive Realism) is basically a ontological position that material things/elements trully do exist outside of the percieving person, and that we percieve generally accurately. This is the most basic philosophical belief. Some go further and progress to: Representational Realism: While external things DO exist, what we see are MENTAL representations of them. Then we have idealism of many sorts: 1) That everything is mind originated 2) a) there is nothing outside of mind except others minds b) Solipsism - only one mind exists and everything is just imagination. Solipsism is IMPOSSIBLE to refute as the consummate adherent can ALWAYS say "You are a figment of my imagination." or "Wow, has my mind been active before". The lack of control or omniscience argument doesn't work against idealism in a sense that one can refer to experience of dreams where there is may be no control possible and everything happens as "if" independent. 3) Epistemological idealism: A claim that we know only our own mind (and 6 sense perceptions) and that no claim can be made about ontological status of the world out there. As I understand, some cittamatrins (Mahayana school led by Asanga/Vasubandhu) adhere to this. Prasangikas are somewhat close as well, considering everything as a label and empty of inherent existence.... However, Buddha, focused on PSYCHOLOGICAL & cessation of stress aspects rather than ontology. Ultimately what matters is what matters to you, and that has nothing to do if the world is made of 75, 100, or 8 Dhammas. There IS stress, there IS cause of stress, there IS cessation of stress and there IS a path leading to cessation of stress. Notice the accurately things that matter to the person, rather than abstract nouns divorced from the observer and don't really matter. > > > > No particular disagreement from me with the above. But it does not > relate to my earlier statement that "dhammas are considered to be > "realities" in the sense that they are the same for every sentient > being, through all time". Sound is sound regardless of whether, for example, one understands the languages being spoken; >>> Different beings hear sounds differently. We hear only limited amount of sounds, some animals hear more. We for example can't normally see UV or Infra-read, some animals can. We see VERY LITTLE of sights that exist, just check the electromagnetic spectrum. http://www.yorku.ca/eye/spectrum.gif Thus a light dhamma is not sight not for everyone. Some will see it, some will not see anything. > > > The whole point of Buddhist teaching on epistemology is that since > > everything is dependently arisen, it cannot be absolute, static and > > unchanging. Since nothing is unchanging, it cannot be percieved in an > > absolutely the same way by two different people. Heck, an object > > isn't even the same for two consequetive moments. So how can it be > > dhammas are considered to be "realities" in the sense that they are > > the same for every sentient being, through all time. > > > > Dhammas are the same for everyone in the sense that the unique > characteristic of each different is the same. > > Does that make sense? > > Jon > I try to talk about the relations of dhammas to the person, what to be done, stress and cessation of it. Some try to switch the issue to impersonal matter that ultimately doesn't matter. What needs to be done is to let go of ALL craving, including views, and DHAMMA (or Abhidhamma). The last letting go, is letting go of the Dhamma... Thus we must be careful not to put blocks under the pedal. Lots of Metta, Alex #83771 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Mar 6, 2008 4:32 pm Subject: Re: Patthaana (17) dhammanusara Dear Han, - I want to add one more question. CMA: "In the Abhidhamma, the three terms – wisdom (pa~n~naa), knowledge (~naana), and non-delusion (amoha) – are used synonymously". But EBA says : "Pa~n~nindriya has the control over the understanding of things as they really are. Because it overcomes ignorance, it is called amoha". Thus it follows that pa~n~nindriya is the same as wisdom (pa~n~naa), since both are "amoha". Question 3: Are wisdom or pa~n~naa a synonym for pa~n~nindriya since both are "amoha" or "non-delusion" ? Tep === #83772 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Mar 6, 2008 4:52 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : internal & external realities buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > ------- > N: I do not reject the existence of beings and persons. Is this not a > subject that is rehashed over again, as Howard says? James: Yes, it is rehashed again and again, but that is because you continually contradict yourself. > It was often explained, also by Sarah, that there is no > contradiction. James: Yes, there is a contradiction or I wouldn't keep arguing the subject. (BTW, as a personal preference, I don't think it is right when you reference other members as support for what you are saying. When you say things like "as Sarah has said" or "Scott has stated" or "Jon has explained", etc. that is supporting a postion using "bandwagon" appeal. In other words: 'Everyone else thinks this way so you should also.' I don't care what other members think or say when I am chatting with you- I only care what you think.) > Note the last sentence. Cittas should be known. A person is citta, > cetasika and rupa, > and these do not last. James: Well, here is the gist of where the argument lies. You say that a person is citta, cetasika, and rupa. You are not supporting the existence of a "person", you are supporting the existence of citta, cetasika, and rupa. I say that a person isn't citta, cetasika, and rupa anymore than a tornado is air and water. A person is a process and citta, cetasika, and rupa is just a simplification of that process through analysis. There is nobody who owns citta, but, the > Buddha taught us the way to have more understanding. To have a > refined knowledge of the cittas. James: Agreed. > Nina. > Metta, James #83773 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Mar 6, 2008 5:02 pm Subject: Re: Beginner's Abhidhamma .. internal & external realities .. Typos buddhatrue Hi Tep, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: They too can be objects of the senses for practitioners, > but not as effective for understanding dukkha and its cessation, I guess. I would tend to agree with you on this. However, the Abhidhamma is supposed to be describing "ultimate reality" regardless of individual learning abilities or preferences. The Abhidhamma is supposed to be an ontology, not an epistemology. (Here, Tep, might be an instance of where the core of the Abhidhamma and the commentaries to the Abhidhamma contradict each other...maybe??) Metta, James #83774 From: TGrand458@... Date: Thu Mar 6, 2008 12:21 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] "becoming otherwise" TGrand458@... Send Email Hi Howard In a message dated 3/6/2008 2:15:24 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, upasaka@... writes: Hi, TG - We're getting closer in position. The differences that remain seem to involve the following, taken in order of their occurrence in your remarks below: 1) I don't see conditionality and impermanence as two different perspectives on the same process. I see the two as related but different, and I see impermanence as a consequence of conditionality, and not vice-versa. ..................................................... NEW TG: I agree with that last part completely! Impermanence is a "byproduct" of conditionality. However, I see impermanence and conditionality as one dynamic process...what is conditional has to be impermanent and vice versa. I believe impermanence correctly seen is known as such; therefore, one who (insightfully) sees impermanence is seeing conditionality and vice versa. ........................................................ 2) You say below "Ultimately, to isolate anything, including the elements, is to (mentally) take them "out of reality" and to mistakenly encapsulate them as entities." I agree with you if by 'isolate' you mean "separate", for they are relationally inseparable. ........................................................ NEW TG: Yes, that is what I mean. .................................................... But I disagree if in any way you are implying indistinguishabliltBut I some point in time, hardness (for example) may be in the midst of being object of consciousness, and later on, warmth may be. They are distinguishable and they do not co-occur as object of consciousness. ............................................................. NEW TG: I completely agree up to here. ............................................................. Also, contact conditions feeling, and feeling conditions craving, but contact, feeling, and craving are all distinguishable, each from each. ................................................................ NEW TG: In terms of experience, I do not believe it is possible to isolate or distinguish contact and feeling. At least not "Buddhist contact." Basically, the definition of "Buddhist contact" is that feeling has been generated by the coming together of the three elements of whatever sense is being felt. Therefore, I think its simultaneous arising. Because deep (insightful) concentration or mindfulness can thwart craving, I can more easily see these as being distinguishable. But still, difficult to do as craving can be very very subtle and usually arises immediately along with feeling in the unenlightened mind. ............................................................... 3) The expression "changing while persisting" is a misleading and (to me even) a dangerous one. As soon as there is change at all, what was no longer is and has not persisted. ............................................................... NEW TG: That terminology is basically how it is translated by the translators of the Nikayas, both PTS and Wisdom Publications. It is an awkward term to be sure. But I think what it is trying to indicate is that -- the object we may isolate as being "a particular thing" (such as a desk or anything) continues to be identifiable as such; even though it is in the process of changing. Therefore, this term shows that things/phenomena are in a process of changing/altering. I think it is done with the intention of countering those who would philosophize "change" as a "popping on-and-off process." Obvious nothing could "persist" and "change" at the same time. So I think the onus is on us to garner the correct "sensibility" of what that term is trying to say. :-) .............................................................. I think, for example, of heat. If it is "still heat" but less intense (for example) than before, then it is "the same" only in the sense of falling into the same recognitional category (of "heat"), but, in fact: what was, no longer is. ............................................... NEW TG: Yep. ............................................... Moreover, since all phenomena are not things-in-themselvethings-in-themselves, but things-in-relation, the alterat alteration of all, and thus it may be closest to the truth to say that nothing remains the same for even an instant. ....................................................... NEW TG: I agree absolutely. But in teaching "the un-expressible," there arises situations where the terminology cannot fluently express the fluency of nature. :-) Damn, even I liked that. LOL TG OUT #83775 From: "Alex" Date: Thu Mar 6, 2008 5:35 pm Subject: Re: Beginner's Abhidhamma .. internal & external realities .. Typos truth_aerator Dear James, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > I would tend to agree with you on this. However, the Abhidhamma is > supposed to be describing "ultimate reality" regardless of > individual learning abilities or preferences. The Abhidhamma is > supposed to be an ontology, not an epistemology. (Here, Tep, might > be an instance of where the core of the Abhidhamma and the > commentaries to the Abhidhamma contradict each other...maybe??) > > Metta, > James > Interesting Abhidhamma read: by Piya Tan ©2006 http://dharmafarer.googlepages.com/01Abhidhammapiya.doc --- The answer is clear. The Abhidhamma evolved over the post-Buddha centuries as a systematic tool for meditation put together by various brilliant Buddhist minds. However, as time passed, what is meant to be a meditation tool, slowly hardened into a rigorous system of scholastic lists and ethical dogmas that seem to stand in their own right. Partly as a desperate response to influence of rival scholastic systems, partly due to the decline in contemplative practice, the Theravâdins tried to canonize their Abhidhamma system as the third Pitaka and legitimize this in various ways. The Abhidhamma teachings are at best theories and views for those who do not have any level of realization. Such theories and views can only hinder one's meditation, when in fact one should simply be letting of all thinking, and to reflect on the impermanence of things. On having attained some level of calm and insight, then the purpose of the Abhidhamma become more clear. They can then serve like a syllabus, teaching schedule or resources for expressing one's taste of freedom to others who still only preparing the ingredients for the soup or cooking it. ------- Lots of Metta, Alex #83776 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Mar 6, 2008 1:05 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] "becoming otherwise" upasaka_howard Hi, TG - In a message dated 3/6/2008 8:21:41 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@... writes: NEW TG: I agree absolutely. But in teaching "the un-expressible," there arises situations where the terminology cannot fluently express the fluency of nature. :-) Damn, even I liked that. LOL ================================= ;-)) With metta, Howard #83777 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Mar 6, 2008 6:36 pm Subject: Re: Beginner's Abhidhamma .. internal & external realities .. Typos dhammanusara Hi James, - Please keep in mind while we are discussing the Abhidhamma that I have not yet studied it beyond the Dhammasangani. Therefore, I am going to choose the part that is compatible with what I have learned. > James: > However, the Abhidhamma is supposed to be describing "ultimate reality" regardless of individual learning abilities or preferences. The Abhidhamma is supposed to be an ontology, not an epistemology. (Here, Tep, might be an instance of where the core of the Abhidhamma and the > commentaries to the Abhidhamma contradict each other...maybe??) > T: Right. The Abhidhamma, being the dhamma theory that complements the Suttas and Vinaya, does not take into account the reader's knowledge and preferences. To me the commentaries are like footnotes in a book, and as such they only supplement the theory/principle rather than contradict it. Why do you see it differently, James? Tep === #83778 From: han tun Date: Thu Mar 6, 2008 11:12 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (17) hantun1 Dear Friend Tep, I admire you in that you always come up with very good questions. Tep’s Question 1: Can you find pa~n~nindriya in a non-ariyan (puthujjana)? Han: Some questions are best answered by counter-questions. So, may I ask you one question: can you find thirty-seven bodhipakkhiya dhammas in a non-ariyan (puthujjana)? I ask this question because pa~n~nindriya is one of the thirty-seven bodhipakkhiya dhammas. In my humble opinion, whatever dhamma that is being developed, there will be degrees of maturity or degrees of development. If pa~n~nindriya is being developed, in a puthujjana, the development will not yet have reached full maturity. So in a puthujjana, you will find pa~n~nindriya that is not yet fully developed. But in an ariyan you will find fully developed pa~n~nindriya. What do I mean by “fully developed”? Honestly, I do not know. But that is the word I frequently come across in literature. It could be magga ~naana for one. ------------------------------ Tep’s Question 2: Is pa~n~nindriya the same as abhi~n~naa? Han: You will find in the Text that the three terms – wisdom (pa~n~naa), knowledge (~naana), and non-delusion (amoha) – are used synonymously. Here, pa~n~nindriya is a “cetasika” for all three of them. But abhi~n~naa is different. In Nyanatiloka Dictionary, Quote: [Abhi~n~naa: The 6 'higher powers', or supernormal knowledge's, consist of 5 mundane (lokiya) powers attainable through the utmost perfection in mental concentration (samaadhi, q.v.) and one supermundane (lokuttara) power attainable through penetrating insight (vipassanaa), i.e. extinction of all cankers (aasavakkhaya; s. aasava), in other words, realization of Arahatship or Holiness.] End Quote. So, there may be other cetasikas than pa~n~nindriya involved in Abhi~n~naa, which I do not know. Anyway, one thing can be said: pa~n~nindriya is not the same as abhi~n~naa. ---------------------------- Tep’s Question 3: Are wisdom or pa~n~naa a synonym for pa~n~nindriya since both are "amoha" or "non-delusion"? Han: As I have said above, pa~n~nindriya is a cetasika for both pa~n~naa and amoha. Respectfully, Han #83779 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Mar 6, 2008 11:25 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XVII,239-241 and Tiika. sarahprocter... Dear Nina & Howard, (Scott, Tep, Han & all) You were having a very interesting discussion about feeling (vedanaa) in the context of the Vism. Passage. >>H: I was told, and it made sense to me, > > that feeling > > is an evaluative operation that experiences an object *as* pleasant, > > unpleasant, or neutral, and that mode of experiencing the object is > > exactly what a > > feeling is. > ------- > N: The > Tiika states that it is said that it is felt, with reference to its > mode of experiencing. Its nature should be characterized as being > felt. First the passive is used: it is felt, in Pali: vedayita. What is > felt is feeling. .... S: Like Howard, I'm curious about this detail. I notice that 'vedayita' can also mean "nt. Feeling; experience" (Buddhadatta dict.). Warder gives 'sensation, experience' for it. I wonder if it could be this noun used in a compound? In the Visuddhimagga Nanomoli translates vedayitalakkhana.m as 'the characteristic of being felt'. If it were the noun 'vedayita' being used, it would read: '..the characteristic of feeling'. This would be along the same lines as for sanna in the next section which is said to have '....the characteristic of perceiving (sa~njaananalakkha.na.m), where sa~njanana is also a nt. Noun meaning 'recognition; perception'. However, I've noted all Nina's other points and Tiika notes with interest. .... In MN43, which the Vism. referred to where it said: " " 'it feels, it feels,' friend; that is why 'feeling' is said. What does it feel? It feels pleasure, it feels pain, it feels neither-pain-nor-pleasure.....'" " .... I see Nanamoli/Bodhi's note 434 says: "......The Pali construction here, sukham pi vedeti, etc., shows feeling as simultaneously a quality of the object and an affective tone of the experience by which it is apprehended. MA points out that feeling itself feels; there is no other (separate) feeler." ... This is the difficult point again. I see in the dict. that sukkha.m is a nt. noun. Cannot it not just be 'happy feeling feels.....etc.'? In this way it would be stressing teh MA point that it is feeling that feels. (Howard won't like that!!). Would not this 'agree' with the Dsg. quote below? ... In Milinda panha, under 'Distinguishing Marks', for: "Bhante naagasena, ki.mlakkha.naa vedanaa"ti? "Vedayitalakkha.naa, mahaaraaja, vedanaa anubhavanalakkha.naa caa"ti. Horner translates it as: "Reverend Naagasena, what is the distinguishing mark of feeling?" "Sire, being felt is a distinguishing mark of feeling, and a distinguishing mark is experiencing." .... On the other hand, a quick search for 'vedayitalakkhana.m' in google, showed me John Kelly's translation as: .... " "Venerable Nagasena, what is the distinguishing characteristic of feeling?" "The distinguishing characteristic of feeling, your majesty, is sensing; experiencing is also a distinguishing characteristic." " .... In the Atthasalini, Pe Maung Tin, also translates vedayitalakkhana.m as 'experiencing as characteristic'. .... The fuller passage in the Atthasalini, 'Moral Consciousness in the Worlds of Sense' is: " 'Feeling is that which feels.(Dhs. #3). It has (1) experiencing as characteristic, (2) enjoying as function, or possessing the desirable portion of an object as function, (3)taste of the mental properties as manifestation, and (4) tranquillity as proximate cause." [Vediyatii ti vedanaa. Saa vedayitalakkha.naa anubhavanarasaa i.t.thaakaarasambhogarasaa vaa cetasika-assaadapaccupa.t.thaanaa passaddhipada.t.thaanaa.] Under (2) it says: "If it be said that the function of enjoying the object is obtained only in pleasurable feeling, we reject that opinion, and say: - 'Let it be pleasurable feeling or painful feeling or neutral feeling - all have the function of enjoying (anubhavana) the object.' " ... This all seems rather clearer to me. ... The Dhammasangani passage itself referred to here has this (Kline transl): "What at that time is sensation? "That which at that time is mental ease and happiness born out of full contact with mind-consciousness-element appropriate to that feeling, sensation of mental ease and happiness born out of full contact with mind, feeling of mental ease and happiness born out of full contact with mind - this at that time is sensation." [3. Katamaa tasmi.m samaye vedanaa hoti? Ya.m tasmi.m samaye tajjaamanovi~n~naa.nadhaatusamphassaja.m cetasika.m saata.m cetasika.m sukha.m cetosamphassaja.m saata.m sukha.m vedayita.m cetosamphassajaa saataa sukhaa vedanaa – aya.m tasmi.m samaye vedanaa hoti.] ... Can we say that sukkha.m vedayita.m (sensation of mental ease and happiness) is a noun (in the nt. nom. case) given here as a description of vedanaa (feeling)? .... In any case, what matters is the awareness and understanding of the characteristic of feeling (or any other dhamma) now when it appears. As I spend time pulling out texts and considering these details, I'm only too aware of how much speculation and how little direct understanding of dhammas there is, even as we study the Buddha's words. I'm reminded about how the growth of understanding has to be with detachment, not more attachment to all the stories we are lost in most of the day. The only worthwhile purpose of these studies is to point to the present moment and the realities appearing now as we discuss these issues! Thank you both again for your helpful discussion. Metta, Sarah ======= #83780 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Mar 6, 2008 11:44 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] He experiences pain and grief that have right view as condition... sarahprocter... Hi Alex, --- Alex wrote: > In CMA there in Citta sangaha there are these these strange things... > > Apparently one cannot experience domanassa while holding right view or >similiar wholesome states??! ... S: Correct. Domanassa only arises with cittas rooted in dosa, which are of course unwholesome. .... > Or one cannot have joyful citta arise > on account of killing (aversion) ???!!!! ... S: Killing itself is always with aversion and domanassa. However, there can be 'joyful cittas' before and after. For example, someone out of attachment to their body and comfort wishes to swat a fly. The intention to swat the fly is with dosa. Immediately afterwards there may be attachment and joy that the fly is dead. In the Atthasalini (commentary to the Dhammasangani), it says: "Life-taking is associated with a painful feeling. For although kings on seeing a thief may say, laughing, 'Go, kill him,' the volition of decision is associated with pain only." **** > Bhikkhus, what is the observance that is pleasant now and brings > unpleasant results in the future. Here, a certain one with pleasure > destroys living things and experiences pleasantness...With pleasure > maintains wrong view and experiences pleasantness. .... S: The unwholesome pleasure prompts the destruction of living beings and enjoys the result afterwards. Wrong view is always with unwholesome pleasant feeling and attachment. Metta, Sarah ======= #83781 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Mar 7, 2008 12:07 am Subject: Re: Beginner's Abhidhamma .. internal & external realities .. Typos buddhatrue Hi Tep, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: To me the commentaries are like footnotes in a book, > and as such they only supplement the theory/principle rather than > contradict it. Why do you see it differently, James? I don't necessarily see it differently because I haven't read the Abhidhamma for myself. I don't know if the commentaries contradict or not- I have just read other people state that they do (and other people state that they don't, for that matter). Alex posted something along these lines in post #83775. I was just throwing out an observation for your consideration...something to keep in mind while you study the Abhidhamma. Metta, James #83782 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Mar 7, 2008 12:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XVII,239-241 and Tiika. nilovg Dear Sarah, thank you for pulling out all these texts. Yes, quite a puzzle. I understood: vedayita: p.p. of vedeti, the passive. it is interesting to see the following translation, where only in the case of feeling the passive is used: Vis. 81: Among the remaining aggregates, however, whatever has the characteristic of being felt should be understood, all taken together, as the feeling aggregate; and whatever has the characteristic of perceiving, all taken together, as the perception aggregate; and whatever has the characteristic of forming, all taken together, as the formations aggregate; and whatever has the characteristic of cognizing, all taken together, as the consciousness aggregate. ------- I shall look up the sutta later on. It is hard to decide: passive or noun in a compound. Nina. Op 7-mrt-2008, om 8:25 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > I notice that 'vedayita' can also mean "nt. Feeling; experience" > (Buddhadatta dict.). Warder gives 'sensation, experience' for it. I > wonder > if it could be this noun used in a compound? #83783 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Mar 7, 2008 1:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : internal & external realities nilovg Hi James, Op 7-mrt-2008, om 1:52 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > I say that a person isn't citta, > cetasika, and rupa anymore than a tornado is air and water. A > person is a process and citta, cetasika, and rupa is just a > simplification of that process through analysis. ------- N: What do you mean by process? Different people use this word in different ways. Nina. #83784 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Mar 7, 2008 1:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Real Experience of Abhidhamma Questions. Daily Life. nilovg Dear Alex, Op 7-mrt-2008, om 0:33 heeft Alex het volgende geschreven: > Not nesseserily. Imagine a warehouse, goods come in and go out. > Furthermore, of course this storehouse consciousness DOES change. > > Remember that some rebirths in Arupa planes LAST for 60-84 MK and > rebirth's there can happen multiple times. This doesn't remove the > impermanence though. It is still impermanent. ------ N: The lifespan is very long, but in that lifespan the cittas arise and fall away, succeeding one another. Rebirth-consciousness can arise there again and again, but each time it is another citta that is reborn. --------- > > A: I see NO problem with kammic storehouse (call it Kamma, or Sankhara > storehouse, or Alaya Vinnana) - the fact is that past bad/good kamma > DOES stay (although it undergoes continious changes and is anicca- > dukkha-anatta). ------ N: Theravada does not teach alaya vi~n~naa.na. Past kamma, a deed committed in the past, falls away, it does not stay, but its force can reach to the future, the far future. Why are we so different from the first moment of life? The condition must be in the past. Nina. #83785 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Mar 7, 2008 1:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XVII,239-241 and Tiika. nilovg Dear Sarah, I considered again vedayita: it is a passive form, but it depends on the translator in what way he wishes to translate it. Some will think: what is felt is feeling, and translate it just as feeling. Nina. #83786 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Fri Mar 7, 2008 1:34 am Subject: [dsg] Re: ecard from the desert sarahprocter... Hi Howard, Sumane, Azita & all, Yes, I enjoyed Azita's e-card too. Azita was talked a little to me about her daughter's interest in Islam and I was thinking about the importance of accumulations (as well as the good friend, hearing the dhamma etc) as conditions for a keen interest in the Dhamma. Her daughter was brought up by Azita and other friends, all with a keen interest in the Dhamma, but for now has more interest in Islam. (She's a delightful young woman, by the way). My mother could give a similar story about my Christian upbringing of course..... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > Sumane, I'm guessing by your family name that you might be Indian, in which > case you might know whether Hinduism has taken the Buddha as an avatar? ... S: Sumane comes from Sri Lanka. If you look in the members' photo album for DSG, you'll see a great pic of him with Sukin. Perhaps it will encourage others (TG?, Matheesha?, Ray?, Walto? Any others?) to donate a pic to the album. [Ask James for any assistance!. You can even mail him an old driving licence....] Metta, Sarah ======== #83787 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Mar 7, 2008 1:52 am Subject: On the bus with Owen again.... sarahprocter... Dear Nina, Yesterday, I sat next to Owen, my 5-year old friend, on the school bus back from the beach again. It was the first time I'd sat next to him for weeks and he begged me to do so and even asked Jon if I could:-) He knew exactly how he wished us to spend the 20-30 minute journey. He said at the outset that we should play the 'guess the animal' for just one turn each and then he wished to listen to the Dhamma discussion on my i-pod. He recognised Jon's and my voices and wanted to know who Khun Sujin was. I mentioned she was a Thai lady who helped us understand more about the Buddha's teachings. "What are the Buddha's teachings?" I reminded him that we discussed before about good and bad things during the day, about seeing and thinking and helping others. "Ah, yes", he remembered and apologised for forgetting some parts! The recording started again with attavadupadana! What was 'upadana', he asked. I asked him if it was true that all day from when we wake up to when we go to sleep, there is wanting, wanting, wanting. Don't we want nice things to see, hear, eat and play all day? "Yes, yes, like with his dog and going to MacDonalds!" "That's upadana," I said. A little later, he caught the word 'tanha', so I said this was also 'upadana'. "Sometimes we want something just a little and sometimes a lot." He wisely nodded and then pressed the 'stop' button on my i-pod to remind me we'd reached my bus-stop! Metta, Sarah p.s Owen tells me he's changed his English name to Peter Pan, but I'll stick to Owen for a little consistency:). ======= #83788 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Mar 6, 2008 11:35 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XVII,239-241 and Tiika. upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and Nina) - In a message dated 3/7/2008 2:25:38 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Dear Nina & Howard, (Scott, Tep, Han & all) You were having a very interesting discussion about feeling (vedanaa) in the context of the Vism. Passage. >>H: I was told, and it made sense to me, > > that feeling > > is an evaluative operation that experiences an object *as* pleasant, > > unpleasant, or neutral, and that mode of experiencing the object is > > exactly what a > > feeling is. > ------- > N: The > Tiika states that it is said that it is felt, with reference to its > mode of experiencing. Its nature should be characterized as being > felt. First the passive is used: it is felt, in Pali: vedayita. What is > felt is feeling. .... S: Like Howard, I'm curious about this detail. ================================ Thanks for this post, Sarah. You provide a variety of quotes, not all going in the same direction. I am inclined to view feeling as a mental operation that experiences an object of consciousness in a particular way, namely as pleasant or unpleasant (to some degree), or as affectively neutral. The odd thing about that operation is that it is probably the most "non-dual-seeming" of all mental operations, so that it becomes difficult when feeling is in effect to distinguish between feeling as experiencing and feeling as experienced. But I see feeling as a type of experiencing, and I view the "pleasantness" or "unpleasantness" or "neutrality" that is "felt" not as a dhamma that is the object of the vedana but, rather, as the operational mode or nature or characteristic of the vedana as it applies to and is conditioned by a particular object of consciousness. With metta, Howard #83789 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Mar 7, 2008 5:01 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (17) dhammanusara Dear Han, - The third question is very significant, since it indicates my sincere confusion when the CMA's definition is contrasted to the EBA's definition. CMA: "In the Abhidhamma, the three terms – wisdom (pa~n~naa), knowledge (~naana), and non-delusion (amoha) – are used synonymously". But EBA says : "Pa~n~nindriya has the control over the understanding of things as they really are. Because it overcomes ignorance, it is called amoha". You see, CMA states that amoha is synonym to pa~n~naa, and EBA states that pa~n~nindriya is called amoha !! That means pa~n~naa is the same as pa~n~nindriya. So please reconsider giving me a better reply than the one below : > > Tep's Question 3: Are wisdom or pa~n~naa a synonym for > pa~n~nindriya since both are "amoha" or > "non-delusion"? > > Han: As I have said above, pa~n~nindriya is a cetasika > for both pa~n~naa and amoha. > Thank you in advance. Tep == #83790 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Mar 7, 2008 5:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XVII,239-241 and Tiika. sarahprocter... Dear Howard & Nina, Thank you for your further comments. --- upasaka@... wrote: > > N: The > > Tiika states that it is said that it is felt, with reference to its > > mode of experiencing. <...> >H: But I see > feeling as > a type of experiencing, and I view the "pleasantness" or > "unpleasantness" or > "neutrality" that is "felt" not as a dhamma that is the object of the > vedana > but, rather, as the operational mode or nature or characteristic of the > vedana as it applies to and is conditioned by a particular object of > consciousness. .... S: Yes, I liked your comments and I think you've put this last sentence in particular rather well - that means it's pretty much how I see it! It's been helpful to consider further. Metta, Sarah ======== #83791 From: han tun Date: Fri Mar 7, 2008 5:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (17) hantun1 Dear Friend Tep, I now see your real confusion with the third question. I am sorry I took your question lightly. I checked with the Burmese book by Ashin Janakaabhivamsa. Sayadaw clearly said that pa~n~nindriya is given the names of amoha, ~naana, and pa~n~naa. Therefore, what you first suggested was correct. Pa~n~nindriya is the same as amoha, ~naana, and pa~n~naa. I apologize for my very careless previous answer. Respectfully, Han --- Tep Sastri wrote: > Dear Han, - > > The third question is very significant, since it > indicates my sincere > confusion when the CMA's definition is contrasted to > the EBA's definition. #83792 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Mar 7, 2008 6:24 am Subject: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 4, no 1. nilovg Dear friends, Chapter 4. Listening. The development of right understanding of dhammas that appear in our life begins with listening. During the Dhamma sessions in the Foundation building with my English speaking friends as well as with my Thai friends there were many opportunities for listening. Moreover, Acharn Sujin’s lectures are broadcasted every day and many people listen to them early in the morning and in the evening. When we listen, we hear what is new to us and also what we heard before but had not yet completely understood. We should carefully consider what we hear so that it goes into our bones. Listening, considering and studying the Dhamma is kusala kamma included in mental development, bhåvanå. We read in the Commentary to the “Dialogues of the Buddha”, the Sumangalavilåsiní, about the Buddha’s daily routine. After his breakfast the layfollowers who had offered food would come to see him. The Buddha, with great compassion and due consideration for their different dispositions, would teach them Dhamma so that they would become established in the three refuges and in síla or even attain enlightenment. Life is short and we should not miss any opportunity to listen to the Dhamma and carefully consider what we heard. The opportunities to hear the true Dhamma are rare. In some lives there may be no opportunity. We read in the “Middle Length Sayings” (II, no 81, Discourse on Ghatikåra) that at the time of the Buddha Kassapa the potter Ghatikåra tried to persuade his friend Jotipåla to visit the Buddha, but that Jotipåla reviled and abused the Buddha. It is explained in “Milinda’s Questions” (Dilemmas V, no 6) that the Buddha, when he was in a past life Jotipåla, was born into a family of worshippers of Brahmå, without confidence in the Buddha Kassapa. A simile is used of a great blazing fire that when it is in contact with water becomes cool and black. We read that Nagasena explained to King Milinda: “Even so, sire, (though) the brahman youth Jotipåla had wisdom and faith and was widely renowned for his knowledge, yet when he came back to birth in a family that was of little faith, not believing, then did he, in the manner of his family, being blind, revile and abuse the Tathågata.” We read in the Sutta that finally the potter Ghatikåra took hold of Jotipåla by his hair and brought him to the Buddha. Jotipåla listened to the Buddha, gained confidence in him and received ordination in his presence. Acharn Sujin said, “Listening helps to understand conditions. No matter where we are or where we go, each moment is conditioned. Also listening, considering and understanding are conditioned.” The Bodhisatta Jotipåla had in many previous lives listened to former Buddhas and developed understanding. His accumulated perfections were like a bright fire, but when he was born in a family with worshippers of Brahma, this bright fire was temporarily reduced to black coal. When he met the Buddha Kassapa the development of understanding in his past lives were the right conditions for him to gain confidence in the Dhamma. ***** Nina. #83793 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Mar 7, 2008 6:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] On the bus with Owen again.... nilovg Dear Sarah, delighted with the Owen story. What a good way of teaching a child. Nina. Op 7-mrt-2008, om 10:52 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > The recording started again with attavadupadana! What was > 'upadana', he > asked. I asked him if it was true that all day from when we wake up to > when we go to sleep, there is wanting, wanting, wanting. Don't we want > nice things to see, hear, eat and play all day? "Yes, yes, like > with his > dog and going to MacDonalds!" "That's upadana," I said. #83794 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Mar 7, 2008 6:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (17) nilovg Dear Han and Tep, Op 7-mrt-2008, om 14:47 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > Sayadaw clearly said that pa~n~nindriya is given the > names of amoha, ~naana, and pa~n~naa. ------ N: Yes, that is correct. Some rupas and namas are called indriyas, they are leaders in their own field. Pa~n~naa is one of the indriyas. So is citta, manindriya. Pa~n~naa has to be developed so that it will become a bala, power. Nina. #83795 From: han tun Date: Fri Mar 7, 2008 6:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (17) hantun1 Dear Nina (and Tep), Thank you very much for your clarification. Respectfully, Han #83796 From: "Alex" Date: Fri Mar 7, 2008 7:30 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Real Experience of Abhidhamma Questions. Daily Life. truth_aerator Dear Nina and All, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > ------ > N: Theravada does not teach alaya vi~n~naa.na. > Past kamma, a deed committed in the past, falls away, it does not > stay, but its force can reach to the future, the far future. Why are > we so different from the first moment of life? The condition must be > in the past. > Nina. > But what you are saying doesn't go against the teaching that "force" DOES stay, although, of course, it does change (new causes come in, results come out which can condition further cause). Call it Kamma accumulations, Alaya, Sankhara, Avijja, whatever. A rose by any other name smells just as good. Lots of Metta, Alex #83797 From: "Alex" Date: Fri Mar 7, 2008 7:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] He experiences pain and grief that have right view as condition... truth_aerator Hi Sarah, In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > S: Killing itself is always with aversion and domanassa. However, there can be 'joyful cittas' before and after. For example, someone out of attachment to their body and comfort wishes to swat a fly. The intention to swat the fly is with dosa. Immediately afterwards there may be attachment and joy that the fly is dead. > >>>>>>>> Just as I thought. Good. Thank you for your answer. However there is still a phrase about pain with RIGHT view as condition. Notice it isn't after right view citta passed away. Here it talks about it as a condition! Thanks, Lots of Metta, Alex #83798 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Mar 7, 2008 7:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Real Experience of Abhidhamma Questions. Daily Life. nilovg Dear Alex, Op 7-mrt-2008, om 16:30 heeft Alex het volgende geschreven: > But what you are saying doesn't go against the teaching that "force" > DOES stay, although, of course, it does change (new causes come in, > results come out which can condition further cause). Call it Kamma > accumulations, Alaya, Sankhara, Avijja, whatever. A rose by any other > name smells just as good. ------ N: No, the simile does not work for dhamma, where one has to be very precise. > , No, this does not > work, very different matters, different aspects. Alaya: people take > it as a subconsciousness, and how can there be a second citta at > the same time, as you said yourself. Nina. #83799 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Mar 7, 2008 8:58 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (17) dhammanusara Dear Han (and Nina), - There is an important implication from your answer to Question 3. Please forgive me if you do not see the same implication to be elaborated below. I do not have a plan to argue with CMA or EBA or Nina. Background: > Tep's Question 3: Are wisdom or pa~n~naa a synonym for > pa~n~nindriya since both are "amoha" or "non-delusion"? The third question is very significant, since it indicates my sincere confusion when the CMA's definition is contrasted to the EBA's definition. >CMA: "In the Abhidhamma, the three terms – wisdom (pa~n~naa), knowledge (~naana), and non-delusion (amoha) – are used synonymously". >But EBA says : "Pa~n~nindriya has the control over the understanding of things as they really are. Because it overcomes ignorance, it is called amoha". >You see, CMA states that amoha is synonym to pa~n~naa, and EBA states that pa~n~nindriya is called amoha !! That means pa~n~naa is the same as pa~n~nindriya. .................. Han (#83791): Sayadaw clearly said that pa~n~nindriya is given the names of amoha, ~naana, and pa~n~naa. Therefore, what you first suggested was correct. Pa~n~nindriya is the same as amoha, ~naana, and pa~n~naa. T: Great. Thank you very much for confirming that "Pa~n~nindriya is the same as amoha, ~naana, and pa~n~naa". There is an important implication to that reply, however. This is seen when we reread the EBA's explanation about pa~n~nindriya that motivated my Question 1 [Can you find pa~n~nindriya in a non-ariyan (puthujjana)? ] and Question 2 [Is pa~n~nindriya the same as abhi~n~naa?]. EBA: Pa~n~nindriya has the control over the understanding of things as they really are, i.e., in the light of anicca (impermanence), dukkha (suffering) and anatta (not-self). Because it overcomes ignorance, it is called amoha (non-delusion or wisdom). Because it can remove the veil of moha from clouding man's mental eyes and throws away the darkness cast by moha (avijjaa), it is called vijjaa (higher knowledge). ................ T: The important implication from the EBA's remark is that pa~n~nindriya is far above all non-ariyans; it must be in the domain of ariya savakas. Why? Because it is the understanding of things as they really are (yathabhuta~nana dassana ?); it overcomes ignorance; it removes that veil of delusion; it is called vijja (higher knowledge). Therefore, it cannot be the same as pa~n~naa that is the wisdom or insight in a worldling. Or, are you also saying that pa~n~naa can only be found in the ariya savakas? Again I apologize for seemingly dragging the issue, although to me this issue about wisdom/amoha is very important and should be very well understood before we're going to move on to the next presentation. Don't you agree? Sincerely, Tep ===