#83800 From: "Sumane Rathnasuriya" Date: Fri Mar 7, 2008 10:51 am Subject: [dsg] Re: ecard from the desert sumane758 Hi Sarah & All, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarahprocterabbott" wrote: > > Hi Howard, Sumane, Azita & all, > > ..... My mother could give a similar story about my Christian > upbringing of course..... > It'd be a long account for me to explain to you, being a born Buddhist (in Sri Lanka?), a devoted one at that, how much it takes to understand Dhamma. I consider myself lucky first, to have had access to internet & then, a DSG Member to receive all your assistance in finding my path (to where I am). I believe that you all have helped me "stay in one place"; providing guidance, in being critical, also (if one doesn't misunderstand) with certain degrees of entertainment. For instance, I've been practicing Meththaa ever since I studied practical Dhamma, in different aspects, acceptable to most who've come to interact with me. But that was not sufficient to hold me from domestic agitations that I've been able to control (to satisfy me) a few years now. > ... > S: Sumane comes from Sri Lanka. If you look in the members' photo > album for DSG, you'll see a great pic of him with Sukin. Thanx but Correction: Though I moved most with Sukin, this pic is with Jon (who helps sort out -guide with- 'material' in DSG). Sukin, I took his photo & posted in DGS site (5 yrs back). > > Perhaps it will encourage others (TG?, Matheesha?, Ray?, Walto? Any > others?) to donate a pic to the album. [Ask James for any > assistance!. You can even mail him an old driving licence....] Yes. My experience is that in recognizable dimension, it helps understand discussions deep. May be this is confined to DSG > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======== > Meththaa & with gratitude to All, Sumane #83801 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Mar 7, 2008 3:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] feelings jonoabb Hi Howard >> One humourous episode I would like to share with you all. I had lunch >> with David and his 18 year old daughter Chandra.(Some of you met them >> last Saturday).David and I were indulging our gloom and doom bit >> about the world's political stage. Chandra just chirped up and >> said, "It's all only cittas and cetasikas." > > Not a bad attitude to have to the world's political stage, if you ask me > ;-)) > > ================================ > Except for doing something about the variety of outright social abuses > and deficiencies extant throughout the world - the murder and starvation in > places such as Darfur, the slavery that still exists, the forced prostitution > and abuse of women in much of the world, the violent aggression unleashed by > nations and "movements," and the lack of adequate food, shelter, and medical > care for many across the planet, including "the West". > The mental pushing away of such things by 'chirping' "It's all only > cittas and cetasikas" somehow reminds me of some other religionists' refrain of > "It's God's will." > My comment was meant to be a light-hearted response to an anecdote was given as a "humorous episode". By the way, the anecdote concerned a gloom and doom *discussion* about the world's political stage, whereas your comments refer to *doing something* about specific issues. These are different matters altogether. The former can (and usually does??) take place without any contemplation of the latter. Looking at the anecdote again, it was probably the in regard to the persons having the discussion, rather than to the subject-matter of the discussion (the world's political stage), that the comment about being only cittas, cetasikas and rupas was made. And if that's the case then I think the comment was a very appropriate one. That aside, however, I do think there is a sense in which an understanding of the teachings on cittas, cetasikas and rupas helps one appreciate more the value of the development of kusala and the uselessness of getting concerned about causes or issues which one is probably never going to do anything about. > > With metta, > Howard > > P. S I know, of without the slightest doubt, Jon, that you are a very good > and caring person who would do whatever is possible to alleviate the > suffering of others. I'm not, therefore, saying *anything* with regard to you > personally but only with regard to the care that should be taken in how we think > about things. There is a genuine danger in forgetting about people when we get > overly "ultimate". There is certainly a danger in any misunderstanding of the teachings. On the other hand, there is no danger whatsoever in coming to a deeper understanding of the way things are in truth and reality. Jon #83802 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Mar 7, 2008 3:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Alone with Dhamma, Ch 4, no 2. .. Transformation into Sotapanna?.. jonoabb Hi Tep Tep Sastri wrote: > Dear Jonathan, - > > Thank you very much for having been patient and kind to me since the > day I joined DSG. > > I think our main difference in the Dhamma understanding is > about "practice". And that one most-important word neatly wraps up our > long Dhamma discussion -- IMHANAO there is no hope that we'll ever > change that. > Well I don't share your pessimism ;-)). I'm sure we are closer in understanding today than we were when you first joined DSG. And I have every confidence that the gap will continue to narrow. Thanks for your kind words. Always good talking to you. Jon #83803 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Mar 7, 2008 3:20 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: mettaa. the present moment ... Are We Real ? .. jonoabb Dear Alex Alex wrote: > This is how I understand them -> > Direct Realism (aka Naive Realism) is basically ... > > Representational Realism: While external things DO exist, what we see > are MENTAL representations of them. ... > > 3) Epistemological idealism: ... Thanks for this brief intro to various kinds or realism and idealism. > However, Buddha, focused on PSYCHOLOGICAL & cessation of stress > aspects rather than ontology. Ultimately what matters is what matters > to you, and that has nothing to do if the world is made of 75, 100, > or 8 Dhammas. > That's true. We learn about different dhammas not to know their number, but to understand better the way things are. > There IS stress, there IS cause of stress, there IS cessation of > stress and there IS a path leading to cessation of stress. Notice the > accurately things that matter to the person, rather than abstract > nouns divorced from the observer and don't really matter. > Yes, but then "stress" is an abstract noun which we first learn about it, intellectually, by hearing the teachings, as are the Four Nobel Truths. And if it comes to that, all wholesome and unwholesome qualities are abstract nouns ;-)) > Different beings hear sounds differently. We hear only limited amount > of sounds, some animals hear more. We for example can't normally see > UV or Infra-read, some animals can. We see VERY LITTLE of sights that > exist, just check the electromagnetic spectrum. > http://www.yorku.ca/eye/spectrum.gif > > Thus a light dhamma is not sight not for everyone. Some will see it, > some will not see anything. > Absolutely correct. But when visible object or audible object *is* experienced, the characteristic of that sense-door object, or of the experiencing, is the same, regardless of the circumstances. >> Dhammas are the same for everyone in the sense that the unique >> characteristic of each different is the same. >> >> Does that make sense? >> >> Jon >> > > I try to talk about the relations of dhammas to the person, what to > be done, stress and cessation of it. Some try to switch the issue to > impersonal matter that ultimately doesn't matter. Yes, but my comments above are meant to relate to the dhammas appearing now. It seems to me that we have quite different ideas about what visible object or audible object is. What you regard s the visible object I see as being thinking about visible object already experienced. I'm trying to bridge this gap ;-)) > What needs to be done is to let go of ALL craving, including views, > and DHAMMA (or Abhidhamma). The last letting go, is letting go of the > Dhamma... Thus we must be careful not to put blocks under the pedal. Yes, but letting go of all craving and views comes at the end, doesn't it? First there must be the understanding of dhammas such as seeing and visible object. Jon #83804 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Mar 7, 2008 10:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] feelings upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 3/7/2008 6:16:09 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, jonabbott@... writes: Hi Howard >> One humourous episode I would like to share with you all. I had lunch >> with David and his 18 year old daughter Chandra.(Some of you met them >> last Saturday).David and I were indulging our gloom and doom bit >> about the world's political stage. Chandra just chirped up and >> said, "It's all only cittas and cetasikas." > > Not a bad attitude to have to the world's political stage, if you ask me > ;-)) > > ================================ > Except for doing something about the variety of outright social abuses > and deficiencies extant throughout the world - the murder and starvation in > places such as Darfur, the slavery that still exists, the forced prostitution > and abuse of women in much of the world, the violent aggression unleashed by > nations and "movements," and the lack of adequate food, shelter, and medical > care for many across the planet, including "the West". > The mental pushing away of such things by 'chirping' "It's all only > cittas and cetasikas" somehow reminds me of some other religionists' refrain of > "It's God's will." > My comment was meant to be a light-hearted response to an anecdote was given as a "humorous episode". ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: Okay. :-) -------------------------------------------------- By the way, the anecdote concerned a gloom and doom *discussion* about the world's political stage, whereas your comments refer to *doing something* about specific issues. These are different matters altogether. The former can (and usually does??) take place without any contemplation of the latter. --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, usually. ------------------------------------------------- Looking at the anecdote again, it was probably the in regard to the persons having the discussion, rather than to the subject-matter of the discussion (the world's political stage), that the comment about being only cittas, cetasikas and rupas was made. And if that's the case then I think the comment was a very appropriate one. That aside, however, I do think there is a sense in which an understanding of the teachings on cittas, cetasikas and rupas helps one appreciate more the value of the development of kusala and the uselessness of getting concerned about causes or issues which one is probably never going to do anything about. --------------------------------------------------- Howard: I think that most of us are in a position to do *some* things by means of donations of money, effort, and time. Some can do more, some can do less - but it's good to try to do what one can, I believe. Certainly, though, there are problems we can do nothing about - I wouldn't debate that. ------------------------------------------------ > > With metta, > Howard > > P. S I know, of without the slightest doubt, Jon, that you are a very good > and caring person who would do whatever is possible to alleviate the > suffering of others. I'm not, therefore, saying *anything* with regard to you > personally but only with regard to the care that should be taken in how we think > about things. There is a genuine danger in forgetting about people when we get > overly "ultimate". There is certainly a danger in any misunderstanding of the teachings. On the other hand, there is no danger whatsoever in coming to a deeper understanding of the way things are in truth and reality. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Certainly true! In part, how good our understanding is, and how complete it is, can be measured by its effect on our actions "in the world". ---------------------------------------------- Jon ======================= With metta, Howard #83805 From: "m. nease" Date: Fri Mar 7, 2008 3:57 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] feelings m_nease Hi Jon (and Howard), Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > >> Chandra just chirped up and > >> said, "It's all only cittas and cetasikas." > > > > Not a bad attitude to have to the world's political stage, if you > ask me > > ;-)) > > There is certainly a danger in any misunderstanding of the teachings. > On the other hand, there is no danger whatsoever in coming to a deeper > understanding of the way things are in truth and reality. > I personally take a keen interest in progressive politics--just a matter of taste (accumulations, Nina?) and enough said about mine. I won't take part in any discussion mixing pariyatti, pa.tipatti and/or pa.tivedha with politics (or science, jurisprudence, philosophy etc.). I came to the conclusion many years ago that all evil--individual and social--arises from the three unwholesome roots. I've never had the slightest reason to question that conclusion since, and I've never seen any approach to evil on any level that addresses the destruction of those roots other than the four noble truths--specifically the fourth noble truth--beginning with right understanding. mike #83806 From: "Alex" Date: Fri Mar 7, 2008 4:16 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: mettaa. the present moment ... Are We Real ? .. truth_aerator Dear Jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Dear Alex > > Yes, but letting go of all craving and views comes at the end, doesn't it? First there must be the understanding of dhammas such as seeing and visible object. > > Jon > If a person doesn't consider "Self" in any shape or form, in aggregates, 6 sixes or in anywhere or anyone - Isn't that enough in terms of intellectual study? I remember a sutta quote where Buddha says something like "one becomes learned that nothing is worth clinging to..." If a person considers that, what use is it to study the tiny specifics (over which MANY people have argued and formed new schools) since the answer is the same: Self isn't to be found anywhere, and it is ignorant and pointless to consider it as "Ineffable, beyond 5 aggregates". Lots of Metta, Alex #83807 From: han tun Date: Fri Mar 7, 2008 5:01 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (17) hantun1 Dear Tep (and Nina), > Tep: The important implication from the EBA's remark is that pa~n~nindriya is far above all non-ariyans; it must be in the domain of ariya savakas. Why? Because it is the understanding of things as they really are (yathabhuta~ nana dassana ?); it overcomes ignorance; it removes that veil of delusion; it is called vijja (higher knowledge). Therefore, it cannot be the same as pa~n~naa that is the wisdom or insight in a worldling. Or, are you also saying that pa~n~naa can only be found in the ariya savakas? Again I apologize for seemingly dragging the issue, although to me this issue about wisdom/amoha is very important and should be very well understood before we're going to move on to the next presentation. Don't you agree? --------------------- Han: From the very beginning, I have said that I am writing these series not as an expert but as a student, a learner. So I may not have that penetrative knowledge that you have. But I will try to say what I think is the case. First, it should be noted that pa~n~nindriya is a “cetasika” which associates with kaama-sobhana cittas, which are in the domain of non-ariyans, and it also associates with lokuttara cittas which are in the domain of ariyans. We should not forget that cittas play a more important role. On page 76 of CMA it is stated that “The cetasikas are mental phenomena that occur in immediate conjunction with citta or consciousness, and assist citta by performing more specific tasks in the total act of cognition. The mental factors cannot arise without citta, nor can citta arise completely segregated from the mental factors. But though the two are functionally interdependent, citta is regarded as primary because the mental factors assist in the cognition of the object depending upon citta, which is the principal cognitive element. The relationship between citta and cetasikas is compared to that between a king and his retinue. Although one says “the king is coming,” the king does not come alone, but he always comes accompanied by his attendants. Similarly, whenever a citta arises, it never arises alone but always accompanied by its retinue of cetasikas.” So, we must recognize the principal role played by the cittas. In 24 kaama-sobhana cittas (beautiful consciousness of the Sense Sphere) there are cittas accompanied by ~naana (which means pa~n~nindriya cetasika). For example, in eight mahaa-kusala cittas the following four cittas are associated with ~naana. (31) Somanassa-sahagatam ~naana-sampayuttam asankharikam ekam (One consciousness, accompanied by joy, associated with knowledge, unprompted) (32) Somanassa-sahagatam ~naana-sampayuttam sasankharikam ekam (One consciousness, accompanied by joy, associated with knowledge, prompted) (35) Upekkha-sahagatam ~naana-sampayuttam asankharikam ekam (consciousness, accompanied by equanimity, associated with knowledge, unprompted) (36) Upekkha-sahagatam ~naana-sampayuttam sasankharikam ekam (consciousness, accompanied by equanimity, associated with knowledge, prompted) These cittas are lokiya cittas and not lokuttara cittas. Therefore, it can be said that pa~n~nindriya can be found in non-ariyans. When we come to lokuttara cittas like magga ~naana and phala ~naana pa~n~nindriya also associates with these lokuttara cittas. In that case, that pa~n~nindriya is above the non-ariyans. So it depends on the cittas with which pa~n~nindriya cetasika associates. In magga-vithi, one of the four ~naana-sampayutta mahaa kusala cittas (mentioned above) functions three times as parikamma, upacaara and anuloma and then observing Nibbaana, functions once more as gotrabhu. Then sotaapatti-magga javana arises. In this case, you can see that mahaa kusala citta which was in the domain of non-ariyans becomes immediate precursor to magga ~naana which is in the domain of ariyans. In the same way, the pa~n~nindriya cetasika that accompanies mahaa kusala citta which was in the domain of non-ariyans becomes associated with lokuttara citta which is in the domain of ariyans. Thus it all depends on which citta a cetasika associates with. More emphasis should be put on cittas with which a cetasika associates. With this in view, the definitions given in EBA which appear to be far above non-ariyans could be explained by the fact that it is the citta that matters. Pa~n~nindriya assists mahaa kusala cittas in their function in the domain of non-ariyans, and Pa~n~nindriya assists lokuttara cittas in their function in the domain of ariyans. To summarize, pa~n~nindriya is a cetasika which associates with kaama-sobhana cittas which are in the domain of non-ariyans. Pa~n~nindriya also associates with lokuttara cittas which are in the domain of ariyans. More emphasis should be put on cittas with which a cetasika associates. In this way, the definitions given by CMA and EBA are acceptable to me. This may well be due to my limited knowledge, I do not know. These are my learner’s point of view. Nina may have something to say in this matter. Yes, I will not proceed further until this issue is solved. Respectfully, Han #83808 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Mar 7, 2008 5:58 pm Subject: Re: Patthaana (17) dhammanusara Dear Friend Han, - I appreciate your patience with me, and am thankful for your additional research and typing of the material. I did not know the question would have given you such inconvenience. >Han: First, it should be noted that pa~n~nindriya is a "cetasika" which associates with kaama-sobhana cittas, which are in the domain of non-ariyans, and it also associates with lokuttara cittas which are in the domain of ariyans. T: If pa~n~nindriya cetasika can associate with cittas of non-ariyans, then I do not understand why EBA says the following about pa~n~nindriya: ..it is the understanding of things as they really are(yathabhuta~ nana dassana ?); it overcomes ignorance; it removes that veil of delusion; it is called vijja (higher knowledge). After introducing the four "mahaa kusala cittas" (32, 33, 35, 36), you drew a conclusion : >Han: These cittas are lokiya cittas and not lokuttara cittas. Therefore, it can be said that pa~n~nindriya can be found in non-ariyans. T: That is confusing to me, because it is an additional information that was not given with your earlier presentation. EMA should have made it clear from the beginning that there are two kinds of pa~n~nindriya, one in non-ariyans and the other in ariyans. But I'll take your words and thankfully accept them. >Han: Yes, I will not proceed further until this issue is solved. T: Please consider the issue as having been solved since I have no further question. We do not need to bother Nina who is normally busy enough. Warm regards, Tep === #83809 From: han tun Date: Fri Mar 7, 2008 6:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (17) hantun1 Dear Friend Tep, I thank you very much for your kind understanding. You told me to consider the issue as having been solved since you have no further question. But I have one thing to clear up. Tep: That is confusing to me, because it is an additional information that was not given with your earlier presentation. EMA should have made it clear from the beginning that there are two kinds of pa~n~nindriya, one in non-ariyans and the other in ariyans. Han: I do not say that there are two kinds of pa~n~nindriya. What I said was pa~n~nindriya associates with kaama-sobhana cittas which are in the domain of non-ariyans, and pa~n~nindriya also associates with lokuttara cittas which are in the domain of ariyans. The fact that it associates with two kinds of cittas does not mean that there are two kinds of pa~n~nindriyas. Mr. A associates with Mr. B. Mr. A also associates with Mr. C. It does not mean that there are two Mr. As. Respectfully, Han #83810 From: han tun Date: Fri Mar 7, 2008 7:30 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (17) hantun1 Dear Friend Tep, An additional information. On page 97 of CMA and on page 98 of EBA it is stated as follows: Wisdom goes into combination with forty-seven types of consciousness – namely, the twelve types of sense-sphere consciousness associated with knowledge, and all the thirty-five sublime and supramundane types of consciousness (12 + 35 = 47).- CMA Pa~n~nindriya associates with 47 cittas comprising 12 kaama-sobhana ~naana sampayutta cittas, 27 mahaggata cittas, and 8 lokuttara cittas.- EBA This is the same pa~n~nindriya cetasika that associates with 47 cittas (not two kinds of pa~n~nindriya). Respectfully, Han #83811 From: han tun Date: Fri Mar 7, 2008 8:34 pm Subject: Perfections Corner (101) hantun1 Dear All, This is the presentation in installment of The Perfections Leading to Enlightenment by Ajahn Sujin Boriharnwanaket; and translated by Nina van Gorkom. http://www.zolag.co.uk/ - Chapter 6: The Perfection of Patience (continuation) We read in the Commentary: “The Second Stanza: the words ‘sabba-paapassa’ (of all evil) mean: of all kinds of akusala.” If we know that something is akusala, no matter how slight, we should abstain from it if we are able to do so. We read: “The word ‘akara.na.m’ means, not causing to arise. The word ‘kusalassa’ (of kusala) means, of the kusala of the four planes [1]. The word ‘upasampadaa’ means attainment (patilaabho), specific acquisition. The words ‘sacitta-pariyodapana.m’ mean, purification of one’s citta, and this is through arahatship. Thus, when recluses have eliminated all evil by the restraint of síla and brought kusala to fulfilment by samatha and vipassanaa, the citta is purified by the fruition of arahatship (arahatta phala). This is the teaching, the exhortation, the admonition of the Buddhas.” All this begins with patience, khanti, which is the highest ascetism. We read futher on: “The Third Stanza: The word ‘anupavaado’(not insulting) means, not insulting anyone by speech. The word ‘anupaghaato’ (not harming) means, not harming through the body. The word ‘paatimokkhe’(according to the paatimokkha) means, it liberates completely, that is, the highest síla; it guards in a supreme way, namely, it guards happy states; it liberates from danger, the danger of an unhappy destination. Or it guards happy states and liberates from unhappy states. Therefore, this síla is called paatimokkha [2].” If someone observes the síla of paatimokkha, he will be liberated from unhappy planes and he can go to happy planes. We read: “The word ‘matta~n~nutaa’, knowing moderation, means, knowing moderation in receiving and eating. The words ‘panta~nca sayan’ aasana.m’, a secluded bed and seat, mean, a bed and seat free from the crowds. It is explained by means of these two requisites [3] that he is contented with the four requisites.” The four requisites are dwelling, clothing, food and medicine. We read: “The words ‘eta.m Buddhaanasaasana.m’, this is the teaching of the Buddhas, mean, not harming another, restraint according to the Paatimokkha, knowing moderation in receiving and eating, living in a secluded place, because he is a person who is skilfull in the eight attainments [4]. This is the teaching, the exhortation, the admonition of the Buddhas.” Note [1] Kusala of the four planes of citta: kusala of the sensuous plane, kaamaavacara, kusala of the level of ruupa-jhaana, of aruupa-jhaana and kusala which is supra mundane, lokuttara. Note [2] Paati means to guard or protect, and mokkheti means to liberate. Note [3] The requisites of food and dwelling place have been mentioned here. Note [4] The attainment of the stages of ruupajhaana and aruupajhaana. To be continued. Metta, Han #83812 From: han tun Date: Fri Mar 7, 2008 8:45 pm Subject: Patthaana (18) hantun1 Dear All, We have finished (1). Root condition (hetu-paccaya). We will now go on to (2). Object condition (aaramma.na-paccaya). (2). Object condition (aaramma.na-paccaya) The following Pali verses and English translation are taken from the book titled Patthaana (for which Ashin Thitzana wrote the Foreward). Incidentally, these Pali verses are the verses we chant in Burma for Patthaana chanting. Aaramma.napaccayoti. (1) Ruupaayatana.m cakkhuvi~n~naa.nadhaatuyaa tamsampayuttakaana~nca dhammaanam aaramma.napaccayena paccayo. Visible object-base is related to eye-consciousness element and its associated states by object condition. (2) Saddaayatanam sotavi~n~naa.nadhaatuyaa tamsampayuttakaana~nca dhammaanam aaramma.napaccayena paccayo. Sound-base is related to ear-consciousness element and its associated states by object condition. (3) Gandhaayatanam ghaanavi~n~naa.nadhaatuyaa tamsampayuttakaana~nca dhammaanam aaramma.napaccayena paccayo. Odour-base is related to nose-consciousness element and its associated states by object condition. (4) Rasaayatanam jivhaavi~n~naa.nadhaatuyaa tamsampayuttakaana~nca dhammaanam aaramma.napaccayena paccayo. Taste-base is related to tongue-consciousness element and its associated states by object condition. (5) Pho.t.thabbaayatanam kaayavi~n~naa.nadhaatuyaa tamsampayuttakaana~nca dhammaanam aaramma.napaccayena paccayo. Tangible object-base is related to body-consciousness element and its associated states by object condition. (6) Ruupaayatanam saddaayatanam gandhaayatanam rasaayatanam pho.t.thabbaayatanam manodhaatuyaa [1] tamsampayuttakaana~nca dhammaanam aaramma.napaccayena paccayo. Visible object-base, sound-base, odour-base, taste-base and tangible object-base are related to mind-element and its associated states by object condition. (7) Sabbe dhammaa manovi~n~naa.nadhaatuyaa [2] tamsampayuttakaana~nca dhammaanam aaramma.napaccayena paccayo. All states are related to mind-consciousness element and its associated states by object condition. (8) Yam yam dhammam aarabbha ye ye dhammaa uppajjanti cittacetasikaa dhammaa te te dhammaa tesam tesam dhammaanam aaramma.napaccayena paccayo. Taking any states as object, these states, consciousness and mental factors, arise; those (former) states are related to those (latter) states by object condition. --------------------- A simile is given to the object condition as follows. Object condition – Just like handicap persons need the support and assistance of canes or strung rope line, so are the six sense conditions. --------------------- [Note [1]: mano-dhaatu = pa~ncadvaaraavajjana cittas or five sense-door adverting consciousness, and two sampaticchana cittas or receiving consciousness.] [Note [2]: manovi~n~naa.na-dhaatu = 89 cittas minus 10 dvipa~nca-vi~n~naa.na cittas and mano-dhaatu. Ten dvipa~nca-vi~n~naa.na cittas are 2 cakkhu-vi~n~naa.na cittas, 2 sota-vi~n~naa.na cittas, 2 ghaana-vi~n~naa.na cittas, 2 jivhaa-vi~n~naa.na cittas, 2 kaaya-vi~n~naa.na cittas, each pair of vi~n~naa.na cittas consisting of kusala vipaaka citta and akusala vipaaka citta.] (2). Object condition (aaramma.na-paccaya) to be continued. metta, Han Tun #83813 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Mar 7, 2008 11:51 pm Subject: inscription for Mahamogallana sarahprocter... Dear Pinna & all, I hope you don't mind if I share your request on DSG as others may have suggestions too. You sent the details of the inscription project you're working on as we discussed in Bangkok. As Sukin and I have mentioned on DSG, our friends in Thailand have donated three glass receptacles, adorned with gems as reliquaries to hold the relics of the Buddha, Sariputta and Mahamogallana in Bodh Gaya. There was a ceremony in February when these were donated and the relics 're-housed' after recently arriving in Bodh Gaya. You pointed out that there should be inscriptions either on the reliquaries themselves or on plaques nearby. For the one for Sariputta, you have suggested possibly adding the well-known verse: "Tathaagata has revealed the cause of those phenomena which spring from a cause and also (the means of) their cessation. So says the Great Monk." You wrote: "I've finished stage one of the inscription project for the Foundation. ....I did not have a ready quotation / text related to Mahamogallana. Do you know a short relevant one?" I have two possible suggestions. Friends here may have others: 1) "Here, Moggallaana, a monk has learned this: 'Nothing is fit to be clung to!' ". This is in AN 7:58 in response to Mahamogallana's question: "In what way, Lord, can it be briefly explained how a monk becomes liberated by the elimination of craving; how he becomes one who has reached the final end, the final security from bondage, the final holy life, the final consummation, and is foremost among devas and humans?" [This is all taken from Nyanaponika's and Hellmut Hecker's book 'Great Disciples of the Buddha', which you may have. It's on p.81 in my edition.] 2. From Thag. 1160-61, in his verses (this translation is from the same book, p.104): "They penetrate the subtle truth As the tip of a hair with an arrow Who see the five aggregates as alien And do not regard them as self. Those who see conditioned things As alien and not as self Have pierced right through the subtle truth As the tip of a hair with an arrow." I particularly like the second verse. Best wishes with the rest of the project and anumodana for your work which I'm sure will be of great assistance. If anyone else has a short and relevant quote for Mahamoggalana, please share it too. Metta, Sarah ======= #83814 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat Mar 8, 2008 12:05 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Vism XX, 'Knowledge of What is/is not the Path' kenhowardau Hi all, 4. Herein the plane of 'full-understanding as the known' extends from the Delineation of Formations (Ch. XVIII) up to discernment of Conditions (Ch. XXIX); for in this interval the penetration of the specific characteristics predominates. The plane of 'full- understanding as investigation' extends from Comprehension by Groups up Contemplation of Rise and Fall (Ch. XXIX, para 3f); for for in this penetration of the general characteristic predominates. The plane of 'full-understanding by abandoning' extends from Contemplation of Dissolution onwards (Ch. XXI para. 10); for from there onwards the the seven contemplations that effect the abandoning of permanence, etc., predominate thus: '(1) Contemplating [formations] as impermanent, a man abandons the perception permanence. (2) Contemplating [them] as painful he abandons the perception of pleasure. Contemplating [them] as not-self, he abandons the perception of self. (4) Becoming dispassionate he abandons delighting. (5) Causing fading away he abandons greed. (6) Causing fading away he abandons originating, (7) Relinquishing he abandons grasping' (Ps. I, 58). 5. So, of these three kinds of understanding, only full understanding as the known has been attained by this meditator yet, which is because the Delineation of Formations and the Discernment of Conditions have already been accomplished; the other two still remain to be attained. Hence it was said above 'Besides, knowledge of what is the path and what is not the path arises when full understanding is occurring, and full understanding as investigation comes next to full understanding as the known. So this is also a reason why one who desires to accomplish this purification by knowledge and vision of what is and what is not the path should first of all apply himself to comprehension by groups' (para. 2) . ----------- -- KH: So that concludes the three paragraphs under the subheading The Three Kinds of Full understanding. I was hoping to give a précis of them, but I have to admit I can't really get into the swing of it. It is hard work, but it shouldn't be too for someone with a bit of energy. A bit of get-up-and-go! But that doesn't seem to be me at the moment. :-) I think I need to go back to the beginning and see where this hypothetical meditator fits in. Larry, I remember you writing quite a lot about him; can you give me a refresher - if it's not too much trouble? Sorry for the inconvenience. Ken H #83815 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Mar 8, 2008 12:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] He experiences pain and grief that have right view as condition... sarahprocter... Hi Alex, --- Alex wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott > wrote: > > S: Killing itself is always with aversion and domanassa. However, > there can be 'joyful cittas' before and after. For example, someone > out of attachment to their body and comfort wishes to swat a fly. The > intention to swat the fly is with dosa. Immediately afterwards there > may be attachment and joy that the fly is dead. > > >>>>>>>> > > > Just as I thought. Good. ... S: Ah, a true 'Abhidhammika':-) ... > > Thank you for your answer. > > However there is still a phrase about pain with RIGHT view as > condition. Notice it isn't after right view citta passed away. Here > it talks about it as a condition! ... S: In your original message, I tried the two links, but neither worked. Could you give me a reference or link for this again, thanks. In short, almost anything can be a condition for something. When someone hears about dhammas, no-self, living alone and so on, they may feel scared or unhappy. On the other hand, someone may experience great misfortune, but it may be a condition for wise reflection and right view. This all depends on accumulations such as right view in the past. One of the conditions which Han will come to in his series is 'decisive-support condition'. This is actually the broadest condition and by it akusala can condition kusala and vice versa. Without decisive-support condition, kamma can never bring results either. I'm appreciating all your keen questions. Metta, Sarah ========== #83816 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Mar 8, 2008 12:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the present moment ... What Is Contemplation? sarahprocter... Hi Walto, I've been following your various threads with interest. You express yourself well. You wrote to Scott: --- Walter Horn wrote: >...Though I'm afraid I can't follow most of your > post--because much of the terminology is foreign to me--I don't think > that's your fault. It would be surprising if each term in contemporary > American English mapped perfectly to some term in Pali. I can see > that you have studied these matters at length and have an > understanding that is not likely to be achieved quickly. ... S: It is like learning a new language, I know. You may find it helpful (and more work!) to take a look at 'useful posts' saved in the files section of the DSG home-page sometime. If you scroll down to 'free-will', 'determinism' and anything else of interest and click on the links, it may be helpful to review other messages on these topics that we've kept aside. There is also a simple Pali glossary in the files which it may be helpful to print out and have next to your computer. Meanwhile, I think you're doing the right thing by asking for clarifications of terms and more detail in plain English:). It's helpful to challenge us all in this regard. ..... > > I think, however, that there's a difficulty that is glossed over (or > perhaps highlighted!) by your post. People are drawn to a religion or > philosophy because of concerns about what THEY understand as, for > example, death, freedom, moral responsibility, etc. So, if one asks, > "Does the Hinayana Buddhist think that we are free, that we live after > death, that there is moral responsibility?" it "profits not" to be > told "Well the Buddhist concepts of death, freedom, guilt, etc. are > different." What I mean is, if the words you are using are actually > significantly different, then you're not talking about what I mean by > death and the others anyhow, so the use of those concepts couldn't > answer my questions, at least they couldn't without additional > explanation. ..... S: I think this is an interesting area. As you say, we may be drawn to Buddhism because we wish to discover more/are concerned about say 'death, freedom, moral responsibility, etc.' We have our own ideas of what these are when we start, but along the way, we may find there is a whole pandora box concerning these issues that we'd never considered before. For example, we learn in the Buddha's teachings about death at each moment or about freedom at moments of right understanding or of moral responsibility without any self. Isn't it helpful and wise to consider these teachings deeper rather than just stick to our parameters from other studies? Please ignore that comment if I missed your point. Metta, Sarah ======== #83817 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Mar 8, 2008 2:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Seeing present moment. 11 surefire things for Liberation. Jhana sarahprocter... Hi Alex, You disagreed with almost everything I wrote on jhana and I disagree with almost all your conclusions from the many texts you quoted! In particular you are adamant that sense objects can be experienced whilst in jhana, that jhana is essential for enlightenment and so on. We've discussed most these topics at length and there's plenty of excellent material under 'jhana' in U.P. I'll just look at a couple of suttas. (Like others have mentioned, it's also easier for me to respond if there's less material and one or two questions you wish me to address). --- Alex wrote: >S: No sense objects can be experienced during jhana. This is the meaning > of jhana - > >>> > >A: This is clearly wrong. One can HEAR in non purified impertubable > Jhana (4th to 6th, infinite consiousness). For example in AN 9.37 > Ananda says that one isn't sensitive to 5 sense objects in ARUPA > Jhanas. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.037.than.html .... S: Yes, no experience of sense objects in arupa jhanas. It doesn't say anything about rupa jhanas in this sutta. (Perhaps it's also pointing to the fact that in the arupa brahma realms, no sense objects are experienced at all.) **** > In another Sutta, Buddha has said that lower Jhana factors can occur > in higher. For example forms in "base of Infinite Space", which would > mean that in imperfect 5th SUTTA Jhana one MAY hear sounds. ... S: This makes no sense to me, but you haven't given a reference, so I can't say more except disagree. ***** > > ----- > Vinaya Pj 4 states: > And then Venerable Maha Moggallana addressed the monks: 'Here, > friends, when I had attained imperturbable samadhi on the bank of the > Sappinika River, I heard the sound of elephants plunging in, crossing > over, and trumpeting.' [To which the Buddha commented:] 'The meaning > is that that samadhi was not fully purified. Moggallana spoke > truthfully.' ... S: Again, I can't follow the refernce. I understand 'imperturbable' (aane~nja) to refer to arupa jhana. The sound of elephants must have been heard after coming out of the arupa jhana, otherwise it would contradict the sutta you gave above! Thanks for all the other material. If there's a short extract with reference and any points you wish to discuss, get another opinion on, feel free to re-post it. Metta, Sarah ========= #83818 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Mar 8, 2008 3:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma vs. Yogacara Views of Consciousness sarahprocter... Hi James, --- buddhatrue wrote: > > "Proximity Force is Not Destroyed by the Intervention of > > Materiality.....Although materiality has intervened between the > two mental > > states, <....> .... > James: This isn't really saying anything at all. Sarah, have you > really read this? If you get past the $10 words, it isn't saying > anything! It is basically saying, "Proximity Force is all > Powerful!" LOL! What, are we talking magic here or what?? If one > citta is supposed to condition the arising of the next citta, those > cittas need to be similiar in nature. ... S:Yes, proximity condition is pretty powerful. Without it, the cittas which make up our life/lives wouldn't proceed. The cittas may be very different in nature (kusala, akusala, vipaka and kiriya), but they all have the characteristic of being momentary cittas which experience an object and lead the accompanying cetasikas. With regard to the 'orderliness' or 'intervention of materiality', think of a queue at a bank. The customers follow each other one after the other in a particular order. If the bank suddenly closes for lunch, but the customers remain in the queue, the temporary closure makes no difference to the fact that it is the next customer's turn because the previous customer has been served. (Ignore all that if it doesn't work for you or if there are never bank queues in Taiwan....:-)) .... >>>Additionally, there cannot be > a break in those cittas because a break would equal cessation, > nibbana without remainder. ... S: No there isn't a 'break in those cittas', just as there isn't a break in the bank queue example. .... > >.... Here the proximity force is not destroyed > although > > materiality lasting for 500 worlds intervenes." > > James: Ooohhh...that's a nifty trick! But, what about reality? .... S: The reality is citta now. Seeing now, followed by other sense-door cittas, bhavanga cittas, mind-door cittas, bhavanga cittas.....on and on and on, lifetime after lifetime. Even if no cittas arise for 500 worlds or whatever, sooner or later by proximity condition, they will proceed as usual. This is why even the highest jhanas are no escape from samsara. Good to read your discussions with Tep and others:-). Metta, Sarah ======== #83819 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Mar 8, 2008 3:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Patthaana (14) sarahprocter... Hi Han & Tep, --- Tep Sastri wrote: > Han: Admitting that I have very limited knowledge of suttas, I have not > yet > come across a sutta where the Buddha emphasizes "knowing the present > moment." Kindly let me know if there is such a sutta. ... S: Also see: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/52000 More in U.P. under 'present' ... Tep: > I recalled Patisambhidamagga paragraph #284 in Treatise I on knowledge > is > about paccuppanna dhamma. This ~naana is called 'udayabbayaanupassane > ~naanam'. > > [Paccuppannaanam dhammaanam viparinaamaanupassane > pa~n~naa udayabbayaanupassane ~naanam.] > > 284. Presently-arisen materiality is born; the characteristic of its > generation > (nibbatti) is rise, the characteristic of its change(viparinaama) is > fall, the > contemplation(anupassanaa) is knowledge(~naana). Presently-arisen > feelings ... Presently-arisen perception ... Presently-arisen formations > ... > Presently-arisen consciousness is born; <....> ... Tep, I'm always very glad when you introduce these passages from Psm with the Pali. Very helpful and relevant. This was also very relevant to the commentary extract I gave on impermanence from the Girimananda Sutta. I hadn't read your post with its excellent material when I sent mine. Metta, Sarah ======= #83820 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Mar 8, 2008 3:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Love them "dhammas" sarahprocter... Hi TG, --- TGrand458@... wrote: > S: Just a minute.....You don't like 'Dhammas' or 'realities', but the > reason I don't usually use 'phenomena' is that the point being stressed > is > that a) seeing arises now, hearing arises now, visible object is seen > now, > sound is heard now and so on, however b) trees and birds are not > arising > now, are not experienced now. > > ................................................... > > NEW TG: Just a minute....Do the concepts of trees, birds, etc. arise > now? .... S: No. Thinking arises and falls now, but the concepts which are conceived don't have the characteristic of impermanence. Impermanence is the characteristic of conditioned namas and rupas, of the khandhas. .... >TG: Are those concepts experienced now? ... S: Yes. By thinking about them. ... >TG: Do the phenomena that support > those > concepts; are they experienced now? .... S: It depends what you mean by these 'phenomena'. Why is there an idea of 'computer' or 'phenomena' now? It's mainly because of accumulated sanna marking and rememebering what has been seen, heard and thought about before and thinking about such ideas. There is sanna now, marking its object at each moment of seeing, hearing, thinking and so on. I'll just jump to one more question, be it a rhetorical one:-) .... >TG: It's like when we say there are only 5 khandhas now. It is > very > precise and excludes the blur of 'all' which may mean anything, unless > we > have already agreed on 'the all'. > ................................................... > > NEW TG: This is Buddhism 101. Who hasn't agreed on "the all"? .... S: OK, what do you understand by 'the all'? In my experience, there's very little agreement about what is referred to in the Sabba Sutta. Are concepts part of the 'All' to be known, for example? .... > I > think its > the nature of "the all" that is in contention...as well as the method > of > practice and realization that is most efficacious in overcoming > suffering. ... S: Let's end with some agreement on this anyway! Thanks for all your other comments. Metta, Sarah ======= #83821 From: han tun Date: Sat Mar 8, 2008 4:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Patthaana (14) hantun1 Dear Sarah, > > Han: Admitting that I have very limited knowledge of suttas, I have not yet come across a sutta where the Buddha emphasizes "knowing the present moment." Kindly let me know if there is such a sutta. > Sarah: Also see: http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/dhammastud ygroup/message/ 52000 More in U.P. under 'present' Han: Thank you very much for the references. They are very useful. The only problem with Bhikkhu Samahita’s posts is that he gives Volume No and page no. So I do not know which sutta. Respectfully, Han #83822 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Mar 8, 2008 4:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: E-card from Bangkok - Concerns, interests, accumulations ...... sarahprocter... Hi Tep, --- Tep Sastri wrote: > T: I often wonder how you've managed to find time to read all the posts > and comprehend them too (then, amazingly, reply to everyone). .... S: It's an illusion! I often wonder how friends like yourself manage to write so much and recall so many suttas.... .... > Talking about great memories, I remember reading a sutta in which the > Buddha told his disciples about some super monks who were older than > 100, but they had no problem recalling words and events that had > happened long time ago. These monks were arahants. No doubt the > several hundred thousand lectures the Buddha gave must be memorized > by the arahants and passed along from generation to generation that > way, before they finally got stored in the book form. Nowadays we have > super computers (that memorize everything you can imagine) but no > arahants. I like the old days better ! .... S: It's hard for us to imagine the recollection ability of the Buddha and great disciples. I don't remember the sutta you refer to, but here's a passage from Vism. which is pretty impressive: Ch 13, Nanamoli translation: "15. There are six kinds of people who recollect his past life. They are: other sectarians, ordinary disciples, Great Disciples, Chief Disciples, Pacceka Buddhas, and Buddhas. 16. Herein, other sectarians recollect only as far back as forty aeons, but not beyond that. Why? Because their understanding is weak for lack of Delimitation of Mind and Matter (see Ch.XVIII). Ordinary disciples recollect as far back as a hundred aeons and as far back as a thousand aeons because their understanding is strong. The eighty Great Disciples recollect as far back as a hundred thousand aeons. The two Chief Disciples recollect as far back as an incalculable age and a hundred thousand aeons. Pacceka Buddhas recollect as far back as two incalculable ages and a hundred thousand aeons. For such is the extent to which they can convey [their minds back respectively]. But there is no limit in the case of Buddhas. 17. Again, other sectarians only recollect the succession of aggregates; they are unable to recollect according [only] to death and rebirth-linking, letting go of the succession of aggregates. They are like the blind in that they are unable to descend upon any place they choose; they go as the blind do without letting go of their sticks. So they recollect without letting go of the succession of aggregates. Ordinary disciples both recollect by means of the succession of aggregates and trace by means of death and rebirth-linking. Likewise the eighty Great Disciples. But the Chief Disciples have nothing to do with the succession of aggregates. When they see the death of one person, they see the rebirth-linking, and again when they see the death of another, they see the rebirth-linking. So they go by tracing through death and rebirth-linking. Likewise Pacceka Buddhas. 18. Buddhas, however, have nothing to do either with succession of aggregates or with tracing through death and rebirth-linking; for whatever instance they choose in many millions of aeons, or more or less, is evident to them. So they go, and so they descend with the lion's descent wherever they want, even skipping over many millions of aeons as though they were an elision in a text. And just as an arrow shot by such a master of archery expert in hair-splitting as Sarabha'nga (see Jaa.v,129) always hits the target without getting held up among trees, creepers, etc., on its way, and so neither gets held up nor misses, so too, since Buddhas go in this way their knowledge does not get held up in intermediate births [412] or miss; without getting held up or missing, it seizes any instance required. 19. Among these beings with recollection of past life, the sectarians' vision of past life seems like the light of a glow-worm, that of ordinary disciples like the light of a candle, that of the Great Disciples like the light of a torch, that of the Chief Disciples like the light of the Morning Star, that of Pacceka Buddhas like the light of the Moon, and that of Buddhas like the glorious Autumn Sun's disk with its thousand rays." ***** Metta, Sarah ======== #83823 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Mar 8, 2008 4:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Patthaana (14) sarahprocter... Dear Han, --- han tun wrote: > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/dhammastud > ygroup/message/ 52000 > More in U.P. under 'present' > > Han: Thank you very much for the references. > They are very useful. > The only problem with Bhikkhu Samahita’s posts is that > he gives Volume No and page no. So I do not know which > sutta. ... S: If there's any one you'd like me to help trace, pls copy an extract with the ref. given and I should be able to help. I remember one was SN:1:10(10) "Forest", which we've often quoted here. (Bodhi transl.): "[The Blessed One] They do not sorrow over the past, Nor do they hanker for the future. They maintain themselves with what is present: Hence their complexion is so serene. Through hankering for the future, Through sorrowing over the past, Fools dry up and wither away Like a green reed cut down." Metta, Sarah ======== #83824 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Mar 8, 2008 4:36 am Subject: EGO-Extraction... bhikkhu0 Friends: Regarding: No-self, No Agent, No Doer: A Self exists Not … !!! Question: Who are you ? Answer: Something Else ! There is no Self as the agent of any action.. There is no Self as the feeler of any sensation.. There is no Self as the experiencer of any perception.. There is no Self in or outside any bony frame of body.. There is no Self in or outside any shortly sensed feeling.. There is no Self in or outside any experienced perception.. There is no Self in or outside any remembered memory.. There is no Self in or outside any constructed intention.. There is no Self in or outside any momentary consciousness.. There is no Doer experiencing any effect of any action.. There is no Definable Entity transmigrating at Rebirth.. There is no Stable Identity lasting even for a moment.. There is no Owner of anything anywhere, whether material or mental.. There is no Identity neither inside nor apart from the 5 clusters of Clinging! Feeling itself feels... There is no feeler! The state of knowledge itself knows. There is no knower! The conditioned activity of action itself acts. There is no actor! THERE IS ACTUALLY NOT !!! Yet beings, since an endless beginning, passionately maintains this mere IDEA of a stably enduring yet invisible entity, supposed to be the Self, I, Ego, Me, Identity or Personality, with which they fall deeply & dramatically in love… Assuming such an IDEA, constructing such an Imagination, Defining such an Invention is more than FATAL, as it cause the constructer to come back to birth, ageing, decay & death & thereby suffering again & again for aeons … This personality-belief, this Ego-assuming, this Self-imagination, this Me-invention, is the first hindrance, the first fetter, the first mental chain to break, when progressing towards Freedom, towards Peace, towards Bliss, towards Nibbana… Here is only Change, Flux, Transience, Impermanence, Passing, Dissolution & Disintegration. Here is only Pain, Suffering, Dissatisfaction, Disappointment, Danger, Frustration & Misery. Here is only Impersonality, Egolessness, Selflessness and Ownerlessness lacking any Core. No Self is found neither here nor there... There is Action yet no-one is known doing it. There is a Noble Way yet no-one is seen travelling it. There is a Nibbana yet no-one appears to enter it. These are the Facts. No constructed identification is worth Clinging to. Let it all go, Give it Up ! Relinquish it ! Release it ! Not Agreeable yet quite Advantageous! Not Pleasurable yet quite Liberating! Not Enjoyable yet quite Deathless… Difficult and counterintuitive is this No-Self issue! But Rewarding. <...> Difficult but rewarding is it to see this subtle Selflessness (Anatta)! Why so? It relinquishes clinging to the false view: 'I Am' = EGOISM! Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest * Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka :-) .... #83825 From: "Alex" Date: Sat Mar 8, 2008 5:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] He experiences pain and grief that have right view as condition... truth_aerator Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Alex, > ... > S: In your original message, I tried the two links, but neither worked. Could you give me a reference or link for this again, thanks. >>>> The long links may have been split in two, so one would need to copy and paste them into the URL box and combine them. Mahadhammasamâdâna Sutta MN46 http://www.mettanet.org/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima- Nikaya/Majjhima1/046-mahadhammasamadana-p.html Or goto http://www.mettanet.org/tipitaka/index.html Majjhima Nikaya MN46 eng or pali "Sahaapi [PTS Page 315] [\q 315/] dukkhena sahapi domanassena sammadi.t.thi hoti. Sammaadi.t.thipaccaya ca dukkha.m domanassa.m pa.tisa.mvedeti. " - MN46 Lots of Metta, Alex #83826 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Mar 8, 2008 12:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Seeing present moment. 11 surefire things for Liberation. Jhana upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and Alex) - In a message dated 3/8/2008 5:54:44 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Hi Alex, You disagreed with almost everything I wrote on jhana and I disagree with almost all your conclusions from the many texts you quoted! In particular you are adamant that sense objects can be experienced whilst in jhana, that jhana is essential for enlightenment and so on. We've discussed most these topics at length and there's plenty of excellent material under 'jhana' in U.P. I'll just look at a couple of suttas. (Like others have mentioned, it's also easier for me to respond if there's less material and one or two questions you wish me to address). --- Alex wrote: >S: No sense objects can be experienced during jhana. This is the meaning > of jhana - > >>> > >A: This is clearly wrong. One can HEAR in non purified impertubable > Jhana (4th to 6th, infinite consiousness). For example in AN 9.37 > Ananda says that one isn't sensitive to 5 sense objects in ARUPA > Jhanas. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.037.than.html .... S: Yes, no experience of sense objects in arupa jhanas. It doesn't say anything about rupa jhanas in this sutta. (Perhaps it's also pointing to the fact that in the arupa brahma realms, no sense objects are experienced at all.) **** > In another Sutta, Buddha has said that lower Jhana factors can occur > in higher. For example forms in "base of Infinite Space", which would > mean that in imperfect 5th SUTTA Jhana one MAY hear sounds. ... S: This makes no sense to me, but you haven't given a reference, so I can't say more except disagree. ***** > > ----- > Vinaya Pj 4 states: > And then Venerable Maha Moggallana addressed the monks: 'Here, > friends, when I had attained imperturbable samadhi on the bank of the > Sappinika River, I heard the sound of elephants plunging in, crossing > over, and trumpeting.' [To which the Buddha commented:] 'The meaning > is that that samadhi was not fully purified. Moggallana spoke > truthfully.' ... S: Again, I can't follow the refernce. I understand 'imperturbable' (aane~nja) to refer to arupa jhana. The sound of elephants must have been heard after coming out of the arupa jhana, otherwise it would contradict the sutta you gave above! Thanks for all the other material. If there's a short extract with reference and any points you wish to discuss, get another opinion on, feel free to re-post it. Metta, Sarah ====================================== I'm inclined to believe that, in a way, you are both correct. I has been my impression, though I can't point to specific suttas that make this point, that the five sense doors are inoperative in the jhanas. My own extremely meager experience in jhana confirms this. Thus, so far, I adopt your position, Sarah. (Specific suttas that confirm this would be very helpful, BTW. I know of none.) It is my conjecture, however, that possibly the mind door in one who is properly trained (certainly such as a bodhisatta), with wisdom functioning at a very high level, can serve as conduit for not only concepts and memories and other standard mind-door objects such as emotions and the various mental operations, but also rupas, and not just as "handed off" from 5-sense-door processes in the ordinary way. For example, in the description of his own awakening from the base of the 4th jhana, the Buddha testifies as follows in MN 4, with the 2nd-watch material most clearly suggesting the observation of "material events": ******************************* With the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — I entered & remained in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. "When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of recollecting my past lives. I recollected my manifold past lives, i.e., one birth, two... five, ten... fifty, a hundred, a thousand, a hundred thousand, many eons of cosmic contraction, many eons of cosmic expansion, many eons of cosmic contraction & expansion: 'There I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose there. There too I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose here.' Thus I remembered my manifold past lives in their modes & details. "This was the first knowledge I attained in the first watch of the night. Ignorance was destroyed; knowledge arose; darkness was destroyed; light arose — as happens in one who is heedful, ardent, & resolute. "When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of the passing away & reappearance of beings. I saw — by means of the divine eye, purified & surpassing the human — beings passing away & re-appearing, and I discerned how they are inferior & superior, beautiful & ugly, fortunate & unfortunate in accordance with their kamma: 'These beings — who were endowed with bad conduct of body, speech & mind, who reviled noble ones, held wrong views and undertook actions under the influence of wrong views — with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, in hell. But these beings — who were endowed with good conduct of body, speech, & mind, who did not revile noble ones, who held right views and undertook actions under the influence of right views — with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the good destinations, in the heavenly world.' Thus — by means of the divine eye, purified & surpassing the human — I saw beings passing away & re-appearing, and I discerned how they are inferior & superior, beautiful & ugly, fortunate & unfortunate in accordance with their kamma. "This was the second knowledge I attained in the second watch of the night. Ignorance was destroyed; knowledge arose; darkness was destroyed; light arose — as happens in one who is heedful, ardent, & resolute. "When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of the ending of the mental fermentations. I discerned, as it had come to be, that 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress... These are fermentations... This is the origination of fermentations... This is the cessation of fermentations... This is the way leading to the cessation of fermentations.' My heart, thus knowing, thus seeing, was released from the fermentation of sensuality, released from the fermentation of becoming, released from the fermentation of ignorance. With release, there was the knowledge, 'Released.' I discerned that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.' ********************************* But even if, despite the foregoing, it is concluded that no rupas are observable directly via the mind door during jhanas, investigation of namas clearly *is* doable within jhanas. This is clear from that sutta, and also it is clear from the Anupada Sutta that the jhanas are not states of mindless absorption, but ones in which mental operations and factors needed for investigation of dhammas regularly function - operations and factors such as "the contact, feeling, perception, volition and consciousness; the enthusiasm, decision, energy, mindfulness, equanimity, and attention." Though there is the received belief that investigation of dhammas is carried out only upon exiting from the jhanas, that is not at all implied in the suttas that I have seen. In the Anupada Sutta, in particular, with regard to each jhana other than the 8th & 9th, Sariputta related the following, indicating investigation of dhammas, namas precisely, while still in the jhana, as follows: ***************************** ... these states were defined by him ONE BY ONE, AS THEY OCCURRED [emphasis mine]; known to him they arose, known they were present, known they disappeared. He understood thus: ‘So indeed, these states, not having been, come into being; having been, they vanish’. Regarding those states, he abided un-attracted, un-repelled, independent, detached, free, dissociated, with a mind rid of barriers. He understood: ‘There is an escape beyond this,’ and with the cultivation of that attainment, he confirmed that there is. ******************************* So, in every jhana but the 8th & 9th, there is investigation of dhammas, namas specifically, most particulary noting their arising and falling without attachment. As for the 8th jhana of "neither perception nor not perception" and the 9th jhana of "cessation of perception and feeling," these were the sole jhanas mentioned as having been emerged from prior to such investigation. This distinction is clear, and, I think, very important. For example, with regard to the 8th jhana, Sariputta stated the following, with the very clear difference being emphasized by my capitalization: **************************** "He EMERGED mindful from that attainment. HAVING DONE SO, he contemplated the states that had passed, ceased and changed, thus: ‘So indeed, these states, not having been, come into being; having been they vanished. Regarding those states, he abided un-attracted, un-repelled, independent, detached, free, dissociated, with a mind rid of barriers. He understood: ‘There is an escape beyond this,’ and with the cultivation of that attainment, he confirmed that there is. **************************** ====================================== With metta, Howard #83827 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Mar 8, 2008 5:57 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (17) dhammanusara Dear Friend Han, - Ahh, so you still have one concern left, haven't you ! I agree with your example of Mr. A, Mr. B. and Mr. C. Yes, there is one and only one Mr. A, regardless of how he associates with how many other persons. That's obvious. However, in the dhamma such as pa~n~nindriya, it is very subtle. The way EBA defines pa~n~nindriya makes it obvious (to me) that it is lokuttara and can only be found in ariyans. > > Han: An extract from The Essence of Buddha Abhidhamma. > >Quote: [Pa~n~naa is wisdom or insight, and indriya is the controlling faculty. Pa~n~nindriya has the control over the understanding of things as they really are, i.e., in the light of anicca (impermanence), dukkha (suffering) and anatta (not-self). Because it overcomes ignorance, it is called amoha (non-delusion or wisdom). Because it can remove the veil of moha from clouding man's mental eyes and throws away the darkness cast by moha (avijjaa), it is called vijjaa (higher knowledge). T: We know that non-ariyans cannot overcome ignorance, for example. So how can Pa~n~nindriya be found associated with the citta of a worldling? The ball is back to your court, Han, if you really want to play with it. ;-) Tep === #83828 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Mar 8, 2008 6:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Patthaana (14) dhammanusara Dear Sarah, - Thank you for the kind words. Tep === #83829 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Mar 8, 2008 6:26 am Subject: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 4, no 2. nilovg Dear friends, Acharn Sujin reminded us time and again that whatever appears now through one of the six doorways is dhamma. We should ask ourselves to what extent we understand the meaning of dhamma. We have to listen again and consider again what we hear, in order to understand that everything is dhamma. There is dhamma right now, it has arisen because of its appropriate conditions. It could not appear if it had not arisen. If we do not understand what dhamma is, it is useless to study the Tipitaka. Seeing is dhamma, it is a reality that has its own characteristic and that cannot be changed into something else. Seeing sees what appears through the eyesense. Anger is dhamma, it has its own characteristic, it cannot be changed into attachment. When we are angry we usually think of a disagreeable person, but we should know that a person is a concept. Thinking is dhamma but the object of thinking is an idea or concept. When a dhamma appears through one of the six doors understanding of its characteristic can be developed and there is no need for words. The dhamma that arises does so because of its own conditions and it has no owner. It is non- self and it does not belong to a self. All nåmas and rúpas that appear are dhammas. We read in the Abhidhamma as well as in the Suttas about attachment, aversion and ignorance, about kusala and akusala, but the Abhidhamma classifies nåma and rúpa fully and in detail. The prefix “abhi” of Abhidhamma means great, pre-eminent, refined, or in detail. The Abhidhamma is of great benefit because it helps us to understand the akusala cittas and kusala cittas arising in our life, and the ways they are conditioned. This again helps us to realize that they are anattå. We read in the “Kindred Sayings” (III, Khandhå-vagga, Kindred Sayings on Elements, Ch 2, § 15, What is impermanent): At Såvatthí...Then (the Exalted One) said:- “Body, brethren, is impermanent. What is impermanent that is suffering. What is suffering, that is void of the self. What is void of the self, that is not mine, I am not it, it is not my self. That is how it is to be regarded by perfect insight of what it really is...” The same is said of the khandhas of feeling, perception, the activities and consciousness. We may contemplate the three characteristics inherent in all conditioned dhammas, but through the Abhidhamma we can gain a deeper understanding of the meaning of the three characteristics as explained in this Sutta. We learn through the Abhidhamma that seeing arises and falls away within a process of cittas, that it is preceded and followed by other cittas that succeed one another very rapidly. After seeing has fallen away kusala cittas or akusala cittas arise. Nobody can change the order of the cittas that succeed one another. What we take for our body are rúpas originated from different factors, and they arise and fall away. What is impermanent is of no refuge, and thus it is dukkha, unsatisfactory. The Abhidhamma can be a foundation for the development of insight that leads to the direct understanding of the three characteristics of conditioned realities. ****** Nina. #83830 From: "Alex" Date: Sat Mar 8, 2008 6:35 am Subject: Re: Seeing present moment. 11 surefire things for Liberation. Jhana truth_aerator Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Alex, In particular you are adamant that sense objects can be experienced whilst in jhana, that jhana is essential for enlightenment and so on. >> According to the suttas, there is no such thing as separate "Vipassana" and Separate "Jhana" path. You need both. For example Anapanasati if you read carefully, contains BOTH (vipassana & samatha). According to the suttas which I am tired to post again and again, DISCERNMENT (which is a must for Buddhist path) IS included in Jhana up to base of NOTHINGNESS. MN111. The impermanence of namas and rupas is properly and ONLY seen in JHANA (1st or higher). Before Jhana, hindrances are there and the seeing is simply ineffecient, inattentive and mere concepts. --- "In appanâ samâdhi the mind calms down and is stilled to a level where it is at its most subtle and skilful. Even if you experience sense impingement from the outside, such as sounds and physical sensations, it remains external and is unable to disturb the mind. You might hear a sound, but it won't distract your concentration. There is the hearing of the sound, but the experience is as if you don't hear anything. There is awareness of the impingement but it's as if you are not aware. This is because you let go. The mind lets go automatically. Concentration is so deep and firm that you let go of attachment to sense impingement quite naturally. The mind can absorb into this state for long periods --from Clarity of Insight by Ajahn Chah. --- > I'll just look at a couple of suttas. (Like others have mentioned, it's also easier for me to respond if there's less material and one or two questions you wish me to address). >>>> Please read MN111, AN9.37 (Ananada says that one isn't sensitive to 5 sense objects in ARUPA) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.037.than.html ---------------------- 18. Apara accharasa.nghaatavaggo Another on the fraction of a second. 469. If he develops mindfulness of in and out breathing, for the fraction of a second, it is said he abides in jhana. Has done his duties by the Teacher, and eats the country's alms food without a debt. If he makes much of that, it would be more gainful http://www.mettanet.org/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara- Nikaya/Anguttara1/1-ekanipata/016-Ekadhammapali-e.html > --- Alex wrote: > >A: This is clearly wrong. One can HEAR in non purified impertubable Jhana (4th to 6th, infinite consiousness). For example in AN 9.37 Ananda says that one isn't sensitive to 5 sense objects in ARUPA Jhanas. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.037.than.html > .... > S: Yes, no experience of sense objects in arupa jhanas. It doesn't say anything about rupa jhanas in this sutta. >>>> IT does Udayin basically asks: In where does one is not sensitive to 5 sense objects? Ananda starts with Arupa Jhanas without mentioning Rupa Jhanas. Furthermore in MN43 Jhanas are mentioned, but only Arupa Jhanas are: "Friend, what can be known with the purified intellect-consciousness divorced from the five [sense] faculties?" "Friend, with the purified intellect-consciousness divorced from the five faculties the dimension of the infinitude of space can be known [as] 'infinite space.' The dimension of the infinitude of consciousness can be known [as] 'infinite consciousness.' The dimension of nothingness can be known [as] 'There is nothing.' http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.043.than.html > (Perhaps it's also pointing to the fact that in the arupa brahma realms, > no sense objects are experienced at all.) > **** > > In another Sutta, Buddha has said that lower Jhana factors can occur in higher. For example forms in "base of Infinite Space", which would > mean that in imperfect 5th SUTTA Jhana one MAY hear sounds. > ... > S: This makes no sense to me, but you haven't given a reference, so I > can't say more except disagree. > ***** > > > > ----- > > Vinaya Pj 4 states: > > And then Venerable Maha Moggallana addressed the monks: 'Here, > > friends, when I had attained imperturbable samadhi on the bank of the > > Sappinika River, I heard the sound of elephants plunging in, crossing > > over, and trumpeting.' [To which the Buddha commented:] 'The meaning > > is that that samadhi was not fully purified. Moggallana spoke > > truthfully.' > ... > S: Again, I can't follow the refernce. I understand 'imperturbable' > (aane~nja) to refer to arupa jhana. The sound of elephants must have been heard after coming out of the arupa jhana, otherwise it would contradict the sutta you gave above! >>>> In imperufied Infinite space, one can be beset by forms (ie sounds). I think I gave a link somewhere. Lower Jhana Factors CAN occur in higher Jhanas. There is this sutta about Buddha's striving for awakening and he was not seeing drawbacks of ascending higher levels. I don't have the sutta number with me at this moment (I think it is from MN). In anyway, reading Anupada Sutta, it is impossible to mistake Jhana for one pointed absorption "dumb as a dead log" sort of state which the Buddha has humorously rejected in MN152. Lots of Metta, Alex #83831 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Mar 8, 2008 6:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] feelings nilovg Hi Howard, Op 8-mrt-2008, om 0:37 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > In part, how good our understanding is, and how complete > it is, can be measured by its effect on our actions "in the world". ----- N: We cannot measure understanding, not 'ours', nor another's. It also depends on the circumstances we are in what type of good deeds we are able to do or wish to do. By understanding one's cittas one can learn whether the deeds we do are done with conceit, or attachment to people's opinion, or attachment to our idea of wanting to be a good person. Nina. #83832 From: han tun Date: Sat Mar 8, 2008 6:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (17) hantun1 Dear Friend Tep, T: We know that non-ariyans cannot overcome ignorance, for example. So how can Pa~n~nindriya be found associated with the citta of a worldling? The ball is back to your court, Han, if you really want to play with it. ;-) Han: I have mentioned already that pa~n~nindriya cetasika is present in four mahaa kusala cittas which non-ariyans can possess. Pa~n~nindriya cetasika can also be found in lokuttara cittas which the ariyans possess. There is no contradiction. It is the citta that matters, in this case, mahaa kusala cittas that non–ariyans possess and lokuttara cittas that ariyans possess. I do not want to “play” with it. I have never “played” with Dhamma in my life. I only told you what I understand. If you do not agree, it is alright with me. Respectfully, Han #83833 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Mar 8, 2008 6:52 am Subject: [dsg] Re: E-card from Bangkok - Recollection of Past Lives, How? ...... dhammanusara Dear Sarah (and all), - I like your quote from the Vism. about past-life recollection. Ven. Buddhaghosa: Ordinary disciples both recollect by means of the succession of aggregates and trace by means of death and rebirth-linking. Likewise the eighty Great Disciples. But the Chief Disciples have nothing to do with the succession of aggregates. When they see the death of one person, they see the rebirth-linking, and again when they see the death of another, they see the rebirth-linking. So they go by tracing through death and rebirth-linking. Likewise Pacceka Buddhas. [end of quote] T: According to the above quote, the recollection of several birth-death cycles is done by tracing through death and rebirth-linking of two consecutive lives -- more or less like connecting color beads by thread to make a necklace. Since deaths an rebirth-linkings in the past already gone (arose and passed away), and there is no huge memory storage device to record those occurrences, how should the recollection of past lives over many aeons of time be explained by the Abhidhamma? Sincerely, Tep === #83834 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Mar 8, 2008 7:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism XX, 'Knowledge of What is/is not the Path' nilovg Dear Ken H, Thank you for your work. Op 8-mrt-2008, om 9:05 heeft kenhowardau het volgende geschreven: > Text: So, of these three kinds of understanding, only full > understanding > as the known has been attained by this meditator yet Ken H: I think I need to go back to the beginning and see where this hypothetical meditator fits in. ------- N: It is the translation of yogavacara. This word we also find frequently in the Co. to the Satipatthaanasutta. Quote: Vipassana is also meditation. The meditator, yogavacara, here is the person who develops vipassana. We are reminded not to run away from the real. Also defilements are objects of vipassana, they are real. Nina. #83835 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Mar 8, 2008 7:25 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (17) dhammanusara Dear Friend Han, - A Dhamma discussion is not comparable to a tennis ball that we can play with, right? Fine. No argument. So let's discuss only pa~n~nindriya without a little humor, then. Please understand that there is no argument for the sake of winning (who's right, who's wrong) or acting smart in our Senior Dhamma Club, I assure you. ;-) > > T: We know that non-ariyans cannot overcome ignorance, > for example. So how can Pa~n~nindriya be found > associated with the citta of a worldling? > The ball is back to your court, Han, if you really > want to play with it. ;-) > > Han: I have mentioned already that pa~n~nindriya > cetasika is present in four mahaa kusala cittas which > non-ariyans can possess. Pa~n~nindriya cetasika can > also be found in lokuttara cittas which the ariyans > possess. There is no contradiction. It is the citta > that matters, in this case, mahaa kusala cittas that > non–ariyans possess and lokuttara cittas that ariyans > possess. > .............. T: You should have addressed my concern above, i.e. "We know that non-ariyans cannot overcome ignorance, for example. So how can Pa~n~nindriya be found associated with the citta of a worldling?". This question is asked becaused I am confused by the EBA quote you gave last time, i.e. > >Quote: [Pa~n~naa is wisdom or insight, and indriya is the controlling faculty. Pa~n~nindriya has the control over the understanding of things as they really are, i.e., in the light of anicca (impermanence), dukkha (suffering) and anatta (not-self). Because it overcomes ignorance, it is called amoha (non-delusion or wisdom). Because it can remove the veil of moha from clouding man's mental eyes and throws away the darkness cast by moha (avijjaa), it is called vijjaa (higher knowledge). In this present post you only told me that there was "no contradiction" because "pa~n~nindriya cetasika is present in four mahaa kusala cittas which non-ariyans can possess". But how can amoha or vijja be found in non-ariyans? I do not undersatnd why "It is the citta that matters". Explain why amoha or vijja can be found in non-ariyans, please, because that really matters. Telling me that something is such and such is very much different from explaining why it is with good reasons and real examples. Giving the right explanation is a million times more useful in Dhamma discussion. Telling people what a dhamma is (because a book says so) with no good explanantion is only inviting more questions. Warm regards, Tep === #83836 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Mar 8, 2008 7:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] inscription for Mahamogallana nilovg Dear Sarah and Pinna, I am delighted to hear more details about the presenting of the reliquaries and of inscriptions for them made by Pinna. Anumodana to all who cooperate in this work. Nina. #83837 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Mar 8, 2008 2:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Seeing present moment. 11 surefire things for Liberation. Jhana upasaka_howard Hi, Alex (and Sarah) - In a message dated 3/8/2008 9:35:41 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, truth_aerator@... writes: According to the suttas, there is no such thing as separate "Vipassana" and Separate "Jhana" path. You need both. For example Anapanasati if you read carefully, contains BOTH (vipassana & samatha). According to the suttas which I am tired to post again and again, DISCERNMENT (which is a must for Buddhist path) IS included in Jhana up to base of NOTHINGNESS. MN111. The impermanence of namas and rupas is properly and ONLY seen in JHANA (1st or higher). Before Jhana, hindrances are there and the seeing is simply ineffecient, inattentive and mere concepts. ============================= As far as both being required, I think there is no doubt. As far as investigating rupas from the jhanas, I think that is uncertain. However, I *do* think that it is clear, as I recently indicated, that investigation of namas w ithin jhanas is doable. Cultivation of calm & insight in tandem is one way to go, apparently, but not the only way. In this regard, please see the Yuganaddha Sutta that I copy below. With metta, Howard __________________________________________ AN 4.170 Yuganaddha Sutta In Tandem Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu PTS: A ii 156 ____________________________________ Source: Transcribed from a file provided by the translator. ____________________________________ Copyright © 1998 Thanissaro Bhikkhu. Access to Insight edition © 1998 For free distribution. This work may be republished, reformatted, reprinted, and redistributed in any medium. It is the author's wish, however, that any such republication and redistribution be made available to the public on a free and unrestricted basis and that translations and other derivative works be clearly marked as such. ____________________________________ On one occasion Ven. Ananda was staying in Kosambi, at Ghosita's monastery. There he addressed the monks, "Friends!" "Yes, friend," the monks responded. Ven. Ananda said: "Friends, whoever — monk or nun — declares the attainment of arahantship in my presence, they all do it by means of one or another of four paths. Which four? "There is the case where a monk has developed insight preceded by tranquillity. As he develops insight preceded by tranquillity, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it — his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. "Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity preceded by insight. As he develops tranquillity preceded by insight, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it — his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. "Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity in tandem with insight. As he develops tranquillity in tandem with insight, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it — his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. "Then there is the case where a monk's mind has its restlessness concerning the Dhamma [Comm: the corruptions of insight] well under control. There comes a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, and becomes unified & concentrated. In him the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it — his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. "Whoever — monk or nun — declares the attainment of arahantship in my presence, they all do it by means of one or another of these four paths." #83838 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Mar 8, 2008 2:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] feelings upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 3/8/2008 9:38:57 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Op 8-mrt-2008, om 0:37 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > In part, how good our understanding is, and how complete > it is, can be measured by its effect on our actions "in the world". ----- N: We cannot measure understanding, not 'ours', nor another's. It also depends on the circumstances we are in what type of good deeds we are able to do or wish to do. By understanding one's cittas one can learn whether the deeds we do are done with conceit, or attachment to people's opinion, or attachment to our idea of wanting to be a good person. Nina. ============================== Until I am a mind reader, I'll judge others by their deeds. As for myself, I try to maintain careful introspection and honesty. My insight is surely very far from perfect, but I must take my best shot. There is no other choice. With metta, Howard #83839 From: han tun Date: Sat Mar 8, 2008 7:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (17) hantun1 Dear Friend Tep, I told you I am still a learner. So I can only quote books. I cannot explain what is not in the books. If that invites more questions I cannot help. You are only telling me that I have not addressed to your concern, that non-ariyans cannot overcome ignorance, for example, quoting EBA definition. But you have also completely ignored the two references that I provided. On page 97 of CMA and on page 98 of EBA it is stated as follows: Wisdom goes into combination with forty-seven types of consciousness – namely, the twelve types of sense-sphere consciousness associated with knowledge, and all the thirty-five sublime and supramundane types of consciousness (12 + 35 = 47).- CMA Pa~n~nindriya associates with 47 cittas comprising 12 kaama-sobhana ~naana sampayutta cittas, 27 mahaggata cittas, and 8 lokuttara cittas.- EBA Are these 47 cittas which have pa~n~nindriya cetasika all lokuttara cittas that a worlding cannot possess? Respectfully, Han #83840 From: "Alex" Date: Sat Mar 8, 2008 7:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma vs. Yogacara Views of Consciousness truth_aerator Hi Sarah and James, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi James, > > Interesting line found in MN26: 'Alayaraamaa kho panaaya,m pajaa aalayarataa aalayasammuditaa. aalayaraamaaya kho pana pajaaya àlayarataaya aalayasammuditaaya duddasa.m ida.m. thaana.m yadida.m idappaccayataa pa. ticcasamuppaado. http://www.mettanet.org/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima- Nikaya/Majjhima1/026-ariyapariyesana-sutta-e1.html So "Alaya" isn't stricly found only in later literature... This is the abode, the roosting place of Causes (ie Kamma), which survives temporary cessations of 6 senses. This solves the mystery of gone causes. Of course, when one becomes Arahant the alaya is no longer increased with new attachments or kamma. Ultimately at PariNibbana, it is completely gone. Lots of Metta, Alex #83841 From: "Alex" Date: Sat Mar 8, 2008 7:59 am Subject: Re: Seeing present moment. 11 surefire things for Liberation. Jhana truth_aerator Hi Sarah, > In imperufied Infinite space, one can be beset by forms (ie sounds). > I think I gave a link somewhere. Lower Jhana Factors CAN occur in > higher Jhanas. There is this sutta about Buddha's striving for > awakening and he was not seeing drawbacks of ascending higher levels.> I don't have the sutta number with me at this moment (I think it is > from MN). >>> Correction/Addition: Sutta is from AN, sorry. [5] "The thought occurred to me: 'What if, with the complete transcending of perceptions of [physical] form, with the disappearance of perceptions of resistance, and not heeding perceptions of diversity, thinking, "Infinite space," I were to enter & remain in the dimension of the infinitude of space?' But my heart didn't leap up at the dimension of the infinitude of space, didn't grow confident, steadfast, or firm, seeing it as peace... So at a later time, having seen the drawback of forms, I pursued that theme; having understood the reward of the dimension of the infinitude of space, I familiarized myself with it. My heart leaped up at the dimension of the infinitude of space, grew confident, steadfast, & firm, seeing it as peace. With the complete transcending of perceptions of form, with the disappearance of perceptions of resistance, and not heeding perceptions of diversity, [perceiving,] 'Infinite space,' I entered & remained in the dimension of the infinitude of space. "As I remained there, I was beset with attention to perceptions dealing with forms. That was an affliction for me. Just as pain arises as an affliction for a healthy person, even so the attention to perceptions dealing with forms that beset me was an affliction for me. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.041.than.html Note "As I remained there [5th Jhana]". > > In anyway, reading Anupada Sutta, it is impossible to mistake Jhana > for one pointed absorption "dumb as a dead log" sort of state which > the Buddha has humorously rejected in MN152. > > Lots of Metta, > > Alex > Here is also someones quote from Vimuttimagga: Vimuttimagga the other day: Gradual stoppage of sounds: "When the yogin enters into concentration, he hears sounds, but he is not able to speak because the faculty of hearing and that of speech are not united. To a man who enters concentration, sound is disturbing. Hence the Buddha taught: "To a man who enters jhaana, sound is a thorn." " (p. 120, 1995 ed., emphasis mine) Sound is a thorn PRECISELY because it can be heard (and thus distract), otherwise it wouldn't matter; :) AND Vimuttimagga and Visuddhimagga explicitly acknowledge the perception of external stimuli in rupa-jhanas: "In fact it is because they [recognitions of sense impressions, pa.tighasa~n~naa] have not been abandoned already before this [immaterial attainment, aruupa jhana] that it was said by the Blessed One that sound is a thorn to one who has the first jhana (AN v,135). And it is precisely because they are abandoned here that the imperturbability (see Vbh. 135) of the immaterial attainments and their state of peaceful liberation are mentioned (MN i,33), and that Alara Kalama neither saw the five hundred carts that passed close by him nor heard the sound of them while he was in an immaterial attainment (DN ii, 130)." - Visuddhimagga (X, 19) Vimuttimagga (pp. 114-115) explains that meditator, moving from fourth jhana to the jhana of infinite space: "... attains to the impeturbability of the formless attainment and the peacefulness of liberation. Alara Kalama and Uddaka Ramaputta when they entered the formless attainment, did not see nor hear those five hundred carts passing and repassing. Therefore, it is taught as the destruction of (sense) spheres; and thus, surpassing of all form perception is taught as the destruction of the form states and the perception of impact." ---- (Note, Alara was not simply in 5th Jhana - he was in 7th) Lots of Metta, Alex #83842 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Mar 8, 2008 8:16 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (17) scottduncan2 Dear Tep and Han, If I may, regarding: T: "You should have addressed my concern above, i.e. 'We know that non-ariyans cannot overcome ignorance, for example. So how can Pa~n~nindriya be found associated with the citta of a worldling?". This question is asked becaused I am confused by the EBA quote you gave last time, i.e..." Scott: This is not really a concern since the notion that pa~n~naa only arises in the mind-stream of ariyans is wrong. It is wrong because pa~n~naa develops from 'weak' to 'strong' with each arising and falling away. To suggest that pa~n~naa only arises for ariyans suggest an impossibility since it would mean that pa~n~naa would have to suddenly appear already highly developed. This would suggest that there is no need for bhaavanaa - the development of kusala dhammas. And, of course, bhaavanaa is a well-known process. Consider the variety of ways in which pa~n~nindriya is manifest: Dhammasa"nga.nii (pp.15-16): "What on that occasion is the faculty of insight (pa~n~nindriya.m)? The insight which there is on that occasion is understanding, search, research, searching the Doctrine, discernment, discrimination, differentiation, erudition, proficiency, subtlety, criticism, reflection, analysis, breadth, sagacity, a 'guide', intuition, a 'goad', wisdom as faculty, wisdom as power, wisdom as a sword, wisdom as a height, wisdom as light, wisdom as glory, wisdom as splendour, wisdom as a precious stone; the absence of dullness, searching the Truth, right views - this is the wisdom that there then is." T: "In this present post you only told me that there was "no contradiction because 'pa~n~nindriya cetasika is present in four mahaa kusala cittas which non-ariyans can possess'. But how can amoha or vijja be found in non-ariyans? I do not undersatnd why "It is the citta that matters". Explain why amoha or vijja can be found in non-ariyans, please, because that really matters." Scott: By thinking terms of 'non-ariyans', and not in terms of 'citta', as Han suggests, one becomes confused. This is because one is thinking in terms of 'persons' and not dhammas. This is because one is considering wholes, which are only conceptual constructs - the objects of thinking, and not considering paramattha dhammas. Wisdom is not a permanent psychological state that a ariyan has (as in, 'ariyans are wise'). Pa~n~naa is simply highly developed when it arises in the citta of the 'ariyan'. Pa~n~naa is a cetasika that arises conascent with citta, having the same object as citta, and falling away with citta. This is why it is 'citta that matters'. The reason that pa~n~naa can arise in certain cittas which arise for 'non-ariyans' (mahaa kusala citta) is because it does. There are forty-seven cittas which can be accompanied by pa~n~naa, as Han has mentioned. Sincerely, Scott. #83843 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Mar 8, 2008 8:42 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (17) dhammanusara Dear Han (and Howard), - Good! I like it better, when you step forward and tell me what's in your mind, than when you hide the thought inside a sugar coating (like those chocolate candies that are too sweet for me -- my teeth are bad and I can get fat easily; candies contaminate health). > Han: > You are only telling me that I have not addressed to > your concern, that non-ariyans cannot overcome > ignorance, for example, quoting EBA definition. > > But you have also completely ignored the two > references that I provided. > On page 97 of CMA and on page 98 of EBA it is stated > as follows: > T: So, can non-ariyans overcome ignorance, in your opinion? About the two additional references, yes, I ignored them because I did not want to be dragged along with you in another direction, at the time you had not yet answered the earlier question. >Han: > Wisdom goes into combination with forty-seven types of > consciousness – namely, the twelve types of > sense-sphere consciousness associated with knowledge, > and all the thirty-five sublime and supramundane types > of consciousness (12 + 35 = 47).- CMA > > Pa~n~nindriya associates with 47 cittas comprising 12 > kaama-sobhana ~naana sampayutta cittas, 27 mahaggata > cittas, and 8 lokuttara cittas.- EBA > > Are these 47 cittas which have pa~n~nindriya cetasika > all lokuttara cittas that a worlding cannot possess? > T: Since you are my good friend, even though you have evaded my earlier question, I'm going to answer this question whenever I have enough understanding of the material. I am not an Abhidhammika and you know it. I am, like Howard, not as absorbed as you are into categorizing the dhammas in the Abhidhamma books. (Even though the Patisambhidamagga often makes listing, it provides explanation that is often quite clear.) The 47 cittas above don't mean a thing to me since I know nothing about them. You are presenting the Patthana, so you do the explanation yourself with good practical examples for beginners, please. Once I have got the idea, I will answer your question above. No evasion, I promise. Tep === #83844 From: han tun Date: Sat Mar 8, 2008 8:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (17) hantun1 Dear Tep, I have already explained to the best of my ability. I cannot do better. You cannot hold me responsible, that because I am presenting Pathaana I must give a satisfactory explanation for everything. Because, I have, from the very beginning, said that I am just a learner, and that I choose this subject because it is difficult for me to understand, and that I want to learn from the inputs by the members who know better than me. I am sorry I have nothing more to offer on this issue. Respectfully, Han #83845 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Mar 8, 2008 9:31 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (17) dhammanusara Dear friend Han (and all), - A discussion on a serious subject often ends up with a sour taste ! > Han: > I have already explained to the best of my ability. > I cannot do better. > T: I know, I know, I am not a gifted discussant with sugar-coated tongue. Perhaps, I might not be very reasonable either. So please forgive me for anything I might have done wrong (Did I push too hard? I am not so sure what, though). >Han: > You cannot hold me responsible, that because I am > presenting Pathaana I must give a satisfactory > explanation for everything. Because, I have, from the > very beginning, said that I am just a learner, and > that I choose this subject because it is difficult for > me to understand, and that I want to learn from the > inputs by the members who know better than me. > > I am sorry I have nothing more to offer on this issue. > T: And I will not bother you with any more questions from now, my good friend. Be happy! With a friendly appreciation of your effort, Tep === #83846 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sat Mar 8, 2008 5:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Love them "dhammas" (Concepts) TGrand458@... In a message dated 3/8/2008 4:45:07 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: S: No. Thinking arises and falls now, but the concepts which are conceived don't have the characteristic of impermanence. Impermanence is the characteristic of conditioned namas and rupas, of the khandhas. ................................................................................\ .. Hi Sarah I'm going to deal with one issue at a time because I don't like too many complications on complicated issues. This passage below shows some real problems IMO, where you seem to think concepts are something apart from thinking. Concepts, are in fact, the prime content of thinking! You write -- "but the concepts which are conceived don't have the characteristic of impermanence. You might have just as well written -- but the concepts [thoughts] which are conceived [thought about]don't have the characteristic of impermanence. -- Concepts are "conditionally dependent," and the delusional or non-delusional quality of those concepts are also conditionally dependent on the relative level of delusion or insight of the "conceiving." A concept arises when thinking pays attention to the conceptual content at hand. When another experience replaces that thinking, that concept ceases and is replaced by the new experience. If I type DOG DOG DOG, some image of a dog or associated experience is very liable to be generated in your mind. (It is this mental image that is the concept.) This mental image is conditionally dependent, impermanent, and non-self. Once I type CAT CAT CAT, the prior concept will fall and alter "due to conditions." Concepts are just part of dependent arising phenomena. No big deal. But if we somehow think they are apart from conditional phenomena, we have elevated concepts into some "phenomenal category" that doesn't exist. There is nothing so special about concepts, unless the mind create new delusional fodder from confusion about them. The concept of a dog, for example, is not some sort of "universal existent." Without the living being we conceptualize as a dog, that concept wouldn't arise in the first place. So it is dependent on conditions. If dogs were wiped off the face of the planet, we would still have the concept of dog due to memory of the creature or pictures or fossil records of the dog. However, if all of that was lost, and there was no memory of dogs, no records of any kind, then the concept would not arise because there would be no conditions to generate it. So the concept of "dog" arises and ceases due to conditions. The dependency and impermanence of "concepts" can be observed through mindfulness. Concepts are generally the central aspect of the activity of thought. As such they alter in conformity to the alteration of thoughts. CAT DOG MOUSE. If you read the former and watch the minds response, you can see and feel the mind bending to conform to the concepts being communicated. The concepts are dependent on conditions and alter in conformity to conditions. Concepts are just a part of mentality. If we didn't have the experience of "pink," or "elephant," we wouldn't be able to combine those experiences into the concept "pink-elephant." "Pink-elephant" is not some sort of un-real existent. It is just -- thought/concept/mental imagery -- dependent on the coming together of conditions and only lasts as long as those conditions are together..."just like all conditions." Concepts are likely delusional yes, but delusion arises, alters, and ceases according to conditions. You seem to think a "concept" is somehow some "universal free-floating non-dependent non-impermanent absolute." I'm not going down that road. Sounds like another invention not found in the Buddha's teaching. TG OUT #83847 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Mar 8, 2008 11:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (17) nilovg Dear Tep and Han, Op 8-mrt-2008, om 17:42 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > Quotes Han: Pa~n~nindriya associates with 47 cittas comprising 12 > > kaama-sobhana ~naana sampayutta cittas, 27 mahaggata > > cittas, and 8 lokuttara cittas.- EBA ------ N: Tep, the number is not so difficult. Also vipaakacittas and kiriyacittas accompanied by pa~n~naa are counted here. Mahaggata cittas are jhaanacittas. Also outside the Buddha sasana people could have these, accompanied by pa~n~naa, or let us say: pa~n~nindriya. Pa~n~naa can condiiton the accompanying dhammas by indriya-paccaya, faculty-condition. Also people who confess other religions can have kusala citta, and also kusala citta with pa~n~naa. Think of the very wise words we can hear from other religious leaders, and why not? It is good to think of the citta, that it is the citta that matters, otherwise we would think: only Buddhists can have pa~n~naa. It is true that there are five indriyas which are: faith or confidence (saddhå), energy (viriya), mindfulness (sati), concentration (samådhi) and understanding (paññå). They control the accompanying dhammas and mind produced rúpa, they condition them by way of faculty-condition. Among these five cetasikas energy and concentration can be akusala or sobhana, the other three are always sobhana. The five faculties are sometimes referred to as the “spiritual faculties” but in that case they are sobhana. They are included in the “factors of enlightenment” (bodhipakkiya dhammas) which should be developed for the attaining of enlightenment. Thus these five are for us to develop, for us who are on the way and who are non-ariyans. We have to begin, the situation is not hopeless. Now it is helpful to know that there are also three indriyas that are lokuttara, only for ariyans. But they had developed the five spiritual faculties before, for an endlessly long time. There are three faculties which are lokuttara paññå. They control the purity of understanding at the moment of enlightenment and they condition the accompanying dhammas by way of conascent faculty- condition. The first one is the faculty of “I-shall-come-to-know-the- unknown” and this is the lokuttara paññå which accompanies the magga- citta (lokuttara kusala citta) of the sotåpanna. The “higher knowledge faculty” is lokuttara paññå which accompanies the phala-citta (fruition consciousness, lokuttara vipåkacitta) of the sotåpanna, the magga-citta and the phala-citta of the sakadågåmí (once-returner who has realised the second stage of enlightenment), and those of the anågåmí (non-returner, who has realised the third stage of enlightenment), and also the magga-citta of the arahat. The “faculty of him who knows” arises with the phala-citta of the arahat. These three faculties which are lokuttara condition the lokuttara cittas and cetasikas they accompany by way of faculty-condition. When the third lokuttara faculty arises there is nothing more to be realized, all defilements have been eradicated. -------- Nina. #83848 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sat Mar 8, 2008 6:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Love them "dhammas" (The All and Concepts) TGrand458@... In a message dated 3/8/2008 4:45:07 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: S: OK, what do you understand by 'the all'? In my experience, there's very little agreement about what is referred to in the Sabba Sutta. Are concepts part of the 'All' to be known, for example? ..................................................... Hi Sarah I understand "The All" to mean everything possible to human experience...(and perhaps any possible experience of any realm.) When the Buddha teaches "the all," I think he is saying...this is all there is to experience, period. Hence the Buddha says that it would be an empty boast to claim there to be anything else that could be "made known" outside of "the all." So I consider "The All" to be effectively "all of conditionality." Since concepts are made known/experienced, I consider them as part of "The All" and in the "mental phenomena" category. The Buddha defines the mental aspect of "the all" as follows -- "The mind and mental phenomena and mind-consciousness and things to be cognized by mind-consciousness." -- Connected Discourses pg., 1142. It is well beyond me as to how "concepts" could be something not "to be cognized" by mind-consciousness. Two pages later, pg. 1144, the Buddha delivers two suttas telling about uprooting all conceiving. Which includes not conceiving the eye, eye-consciousness, eye-contact, whatever feeling arises with eye-contact as condition, etc. The so-called ultimate realities are the very things the Buddha doesn't even want us to conceive about., he wants us to abandon them, reject them, and destroy them. (Notice: the Buddha talks about "conceiving" seamlessly with the rest of his teaching. I do not ever recall him saying that conceiving or concepts are in another realm of phenomena all to their own. Do you?) And BTW, without rejecting and abandoning "the all" it is impossible to overcome suffering. To escape "The All" one needs to escape all of conditionality; to reject it, to abandon it. The only unconditioned I am aware of is Nibbana. Concepts do not fall into that category, so the only other possibility is "conditioned." TG #83849 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Mar 8, 2008 11:35 am Subject: Re: Patthaana (17) dhammanusara Dear Scott (Han, Howard, Alex), - Thank you for joining me at the time that Han said 'Bye-bye'. But the issue is still very worthwhile no matter what has happened. BTW I like your way of discussion better than any other style that is arguing a lot (with logical deduction, making use of a sophisticated vocabulary or invented terminologies etc., but without much basis on the Teachings), or accusing each other a lot, or shooting the opponent with question-bullets or extremely long quotes (aimed as a punishment). Your understanding that "pa~n~naa develops from 'weak' to 'strong' with each arising and falling away" agrees with mine as our discussions in the past indicated. So it makes sense to say a right view that is not one of the wrong views defined by the Buddha (see DN 15, MN 2, MN 117, for instance) is not yet "right" at the Stream-entry level, where there is yathabhuta~nana dassana that knows and sees the five khandhas (and ayatanas...) the way they really are. >Scott: To suggest that pa~n~naa only arises for ariyans suggest an impossibility since it would mean that pa~n~naa would have to suddenly appear already highly developed. This would suggest that there is no need for bhaavanaa - the development of kusala dhammas. And, of course, bhaavanaa is a well-known process. T: Suddenly (in term of the "moments" of magga and phala?) or not, it is not important. But it is clear that there is a well-defined sotapattimagga mind-state that divides the first-level 'ariya puggala' from 'puthujjana'. After that occurrence there is no more falling back of the citta to the worldling state (with wrong views). Of course, bhavana is a process of mental development over time. It develops the worldling mind toward right view as an attainment of Stream-entry and also beyond. >Scott: Dhammasa"nga.nii (pp.15-16): "What on that occasion is the faculty of insight (pa~n~nindriya.m)? The insight which there is on that occasion is understanding, search, research, searching the Doctrine, discernment, discrimination, differentiation, erudition, proficiency, subtlety, criticism, reflection, analysis, breadth, sagacity, a 'guide', intuition, a 'goad', wisdom as faculty, wisdom as power, wisdom as a sword, wisdom as a height, wisdom as light, wisdom as glory, wisdom as splendour, wisdom as a precious stone; the absence of dullness, searching the Truth, right views - this is the wisdom that there then is." T: I see the above description of faculty of insight (pa~n~nindriya) as a conglomeration of all aspects, consisting of 'search' to 'right views'. It is obvious that the puthujjana does not have pa~n~nindriya simply because there is no right view in the worldling !! Further, the Dhammasangani book does not say anything about the "process" or "moment", it only describes (by listing) all the characteristics of the faculty of insight. The process of development has to be found in the Suttanta-pitaka. .................... >Scott: By thinking terms of 'non-ariyans', and not in terms of 'citta', as Han suggests, one becomes confused. This is because one is thinking in terms of 'persons' and not dhammas. This is because one is considering wholes, which are only conceptual constructs - the objects of thinking, and not considering paramattha dhammas. Wisdom is not a permanent psychological state that a ariyan has (as in, 'ariyans are wise'). Pa~n~naa is simply highly developed when it arises in the citta of the 'ariyan'. Pa~n~naa is a cetasika that arises conascent with citta, having the same object as citta, and falling away with citta. This is why it is 'citta that matters'. T: You meant I became confused. No, the confusion was not caused by "thinking in terms of persons", as I explained in the reply to Han. The confusion came from the confusing pa~n~nindriya definition in EBA. >T (talking to Han): "You should have addressed my concern above, i.e. 'We know that non-ariyans cannot overcome ignorance, for example. So how can Pa~n~nindriya be found associated with the citta of a worldling?". This question is asked becaused I am confused by the EBA quote you gave last time, i.e. .." >Scott: The reason that pa~n~naa can arise in certain cittas which arise for 'non-ariyans' (mahaa kusala citta) is because it does. There are forty- seven cittas which can be accompanied by pa~n~naa, as Han has mentioned. T: It is indeed very convenient to say "because it does", when you do not have a right answer to anything ! Tep === #83850 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Mar 8, 2008 11:56 am Subject: Re: Patthaana (17) scottduncan2 Dear Tep, Thanks for the reply: "...it is clear that there is a well-defined sotapattimagga mind-state that divides the first-level 'ariya puggala' from 'puthujjana'..." Scott: What, may I ask, is a 'mind-state'? Sincerely, Scott. #83851 From: "Alex" Date: Sat Mar 8, 2008 12:06 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Love them "dhammas" (The All and Concepts) truth_aerator Hi TG, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@... wrote: > Since concepts are made known/experienced, I consider them as part of "The All" and in the "mental phenomena" category. The Buddha defines the mental aspect of "the all" as follows -- "The mind and mental phenomena and mind-consciousness and things to be cognized by mind-consciousness." -- Connected Discourses pg., 1142. It is well beyond me as to how "concepts" could be something not "to be cognized" by mind-consciousness. > The so-called ultimate realities are the very things the Buddha doesn't even want us to conceive about., he wants us to abandon them, reject them, and destroy them. >>>>> I'd like to add few things: Concepts and clinging to them. What are we clinging to, which aggregate do concepts and labels (sanna) relate to? Sannakhanda!!! Sanna = Labels, recognition, perception. So in essence what happens to people (me included) when reading too much is unconsciouss CLINGING to at least one of the aggregates which we are supposed to be let go off as not self! Not to mention the heated argumentations that can happen when someone's collection of sanna isn't as big as someone else's ... Haha :) Those who studied a bit of 'Buddhist' history can relate... War of words is not nice! I personally notice quite a lot of slight changes in later texts. If initially all attention is to asavas of a person, and Emptiness is emptiness of stress (4th to Arupa Jhanas) and emptiness of Self, in later works the shift is more towards emptiness of Phenomenon. Thus what in effect happens is that, rather than focusing on one's own insubstantiality, one becomes thinking about outer things. When one doesn't pay attention to what is going on inside oneself (Dependent Origination of Stress) and pays all attention outside, Mara can safely relax inside that person. It is quite convinient and subconsiously reassuring to the ego, to spend all attention building up one's SannaSkhanda base (concepts, labels, vocabulary, etc) for the slaughter by Mara (death) the Butcher. After all, ALL aggregates (including) SannaSkandha are KILLERS. One of the reasons why people in those times, as a general rule, could attain Samadhi easily was that their Sanna-Skandha was "thin". Ultimately in deep Jhanas you try to wipe your observation state clean (off intruding thoughts) in order to see the Dependent Origination (seeing which also allows one to see 4NT and 3 Characteristics of Existence). And ultimately one is supposed to let go of Dhamma for Arhatship, so why build more than enough attachments? Lots of Metta, Alex #83852 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Mar 8, 2008 12:18 pm Subject: Re: Patthaana (17) dhammanusara Dear Scott, - You are a fast reader. > > "...it is clear that there is a well-defined sotapattimagga > mind-state that divides the first-level 'ariya puggala' from > 'puthujjana'..." > > Scott: What, may I ask, is a 'mind-state'? > T: Citta & cetasikas defines a mindstate. The various mindsates are described in AN 10.51 : Sacitta Sutta. Tep == #83853 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Mar 8, 2008 12:38 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (17) dhammanusara Dear Nina, - Thank you for your kind consideration -- filling in the void after Han stopped. N: Tep, the number is not so difficult. Also vipaakacittas and kiriyacittas accompanied by pa~n~naa are counted here. Mahaggata cittas are jhaanacittas. Also outside the Buddha sasana people could have these, accompanied by pa~n~naa, or let us say: pa~n~nindriya. Pa~n~naa can condiiton the accompanying dhammas by indriya-paccaya, faculty-condition. Also people who confess other religions can have kusala citta, and also kusala citta with pa~n~naa. Think of the very wise words we can hear from other religious leaders, and why not? It is good to think of the citta, that it is the citta that matters, otherwise we would think: only Buddhists can have pa~n~naa. T: The Dhammasangani defines pa~n~nindriya to include several aspects with samma-ditthi as the top quality. "What on that occasion is the faculty of insight (pa~n~nindriya.m)? The insight which there is on that occasion is understanding, search, research, searching the Doctrine, discernment, discrimination, differentiation, erudition, proficiency, subtlety, criticism, reflection, analysis, breadth, sagacity, a 'guide', intuition, a 'goad', wisdom as faculty, wisdom as power, wisdom as a sword, wisdom as a height, wisdom as light, wisdom as glory, wisdom as splendour, wisdom as a precious stone; the absence of dullness, searching the Truth, right views ... " T: So it is obvious that the puthujjana does not have pa~n~nindriya simply because there is no right view in the worldling !! Since pa~n~naa and pa~n~nindriya are equivalent/synonym, I doubt if you may find pa~n~naa in other religions outside Buddhism. ......................... >N: The "higher knowledge faculty" is lokuttara pa~n~naa which accompanies the phala-citta (fruition consciousness, lokuttara vipåkacitta) of the sotapanna, the magga-citta and the phala-citta of the sakadagmi (once-returner who has realised the second stage of enlightenment), and those of the anågåmí (non-returner, who has realised the third stage of enlightenment), and also the magga-citta of the arahat. The "faculty of him who knows" arises with the phala-citta of the arahat. These three faculties which are lokuttara condition the lokuttara cittas and cetasikas they accompany by way of faculty-condition. When the third lokuttara faculty arises there is nothing more to be realized, all defilements have been eradicated. T: Thank you very much for the information, Nina. Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Tep and Han, > Op 8-mrt-2008, om 17:42 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > > > Quotes Han: Pa~n~nindriya associates with 47 cittas comprising 12 > > > kaama-sobhana ~naana sampayutta cittas, 27 mahaggata > > > cittas, and 8 lokuttara cittas.- EBA > ------ #83854 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Mar 8, 2008 8:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Love them "dhammas" (Concepts) upasaka_howard Hi, TG (and Sarah) - In a message dated 3/8/2008 1:47:45 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@... writes: Hi Sarah I'm going to deal with one issue at a time because I don't like too many complications on complicated issues. This passage below shows some real problems IMO, where you seem to think concepts are something apart from thinking. Concepts, are in fact, the prime content of thinking! You write -- "but the concepts which are conceived don't have the characteristic of impermanence. You might have just as well written -- but the concepts [thoughts] which are conceived [thought about]don't have the characteristic of impermanence. -- Concepts are "conditionally dependent," and the delusional or non-delusional quality of those concepts are also conditionally dependent on the relative level of delusion or insight of the "conceiving." A concept arises when thinking pays attention to the conceptual content at hand. When another experience replaces that thinking, that concept ceases and is replaced by the new experience. If I type DOG DOG DOG, some image of a dog or associated experience is very liable to be generated in your mind. (It is this mental image that is the concept.) This mental image is conditionally dependent, impermanent, and non-self. Once I type CAT CAT CAT, the prior concept will fall and alter "due to conditions." Concepts are just part of dependent arising phenomena. No big deal. But if we somehow think they are apart from conditional phenomena, we have elevated concepts into some "phenomenal category" that doesn't exist. There is nothing so special about concepts, unless the mind create new delusional fodder from confusion about them. -------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: TG, if the next time you type DOG DOG DOG, you see no mental image but instead imagine barking, is that still the "dog" concept? Isn't there, in either case, just the thinking that is going on? -------------------------------------------------------------- The concept of a dog, for example, is not some sort of "universal existent." Without the living being we conceptualize as a dog, that concept wouldn't arise in the first place. So it is dependent on conditions. If dogs were wiped off the face of the planet, we would still have the concept of dog due to memory of the creature or pictures or fossil records of the dog. However, if all of that was lost, and there was no memory of dogs, no records of any kind, then the concept would not arise because there would be no conditions to generate it. So the concept of "dog" arises and ceases due to conditions. --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: What would no longer be the case, as i see it, is two kinds of things: 1) actual dogs (aggregations, from my perspective), and also 2) a type of mental event called "thinking of dogs". -------------------------------------------------------- The dependency and impermanence of "concepts" can be observed through mindfulness. Concepts are generally the central aspect of the activity of thought. As such they alter in conformity to the alteration of thoughts. CAT DOG MOUSE. If you read the former and watch the minds response, you can see and feel the mind bending to conform to the concepts being communicated. The concepts are dependent on conditions and alter in conformity to conditions. Concepts are just a part of mentality. -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: As I see it, we use the word 'concept' as a means of talking about thinking, but that no actual mental "things" correspond to that name. It is just a verbal convenience. Sights and sounds, on the other hand, are the actual mental object-content when seeing and hearing. -------------------------------------------------------- If we didn't have the experience of "pink," or "elephant," we wouldn't be able to combine those experiences into the concept "pink-elephant." "Pink-elephant" is not some sort of un-real existent. It is just -- thought/concept/mental imagery -- dependent on the coming together of conditions and only lasts as long as those conditions are together..."just like all conditions." Concepts are likely delusional yes, but delusion arises, alters, and ceases according to conditions. You seem to think a "concept" is somehow some "universal free-floating non-dependent non-impermanent absolute." I'm not going down that road. Sounds like another invention not found in the Buddha's teaching. TG OUT ================================ With metta, Howard #83855 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Mar 8, 2008 2:37 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] feelings jonoabb Hi Mike m. nease wrote: > I came to the conclusion many years ago that all evil--individual and > social--arises from the three unwholesome roots. I've never had the > slightest reason to question that conclusion since, and I've never seen > any approach to evil on any level that addresses the destruction of > those roots other than the four noble truths--specifically the fourth > noble truth--beginning with right understanding. > Well said! It all comes down to the 3 unwholesome roots. And as you say, anything other than the development of insight is not leading in the direction of the destruction of those 3 factors. Very important to recognise that. Thanks for the reminder. Nice to see you here again. Jon #83856 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sat Mar 8, 2008 9:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Love them "dhammas" (Concepts) TGrand458@... Hi Howard In a message dated 3/8/2008 2:13:29 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, upasaka@... writes: Howard: TG, if the next time you type DOG DOG DOG, you see no mental image but instead imagine barking, is that still the "dog" concept? Isn't there, in either case, just the thinking that is going on? ............................................................................. NEW TG: Its a related/associated mental state. Instead of the "mental picture/imagery" of a dog ... it is a mental audible/imagination of a dogs sounds. You might instead remember a dogs smells, or feeling of its fur. The concept of Dog may bring up any of these mental imageries depending on the other mental factors/experience combining to produce the mental experience. So being the idea of the sound, it is also conceptual. And yes, it is thinking that is going on. I'm not aware of any kind of conceptualizing that isn't thinking. I hope I answered your question in all of that somewhere. ............................................................. ---------------------------------------------------------- The concept of a dog, for example, is not some sort of "universal existent." Without the living being we conceptualize as a dog, that concept wouldn't arise in the first place. So it is dependent on conditions. If dogs were wiped off the face of the planet, we would still have the concept of dog due to memory of the creature or pictures or fossil records of the dog. However, if all of that was lost, and there was no memory of dogs, no records of any kind, then the concept would not arise because there would be no conditions to generate it. So the concept of "dog" arises and ceases due to conditions. --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: What would no longer be the case, as i see it, is two kinds of things: 1) actual dogs (aggregations, from my perspective)1) actual dogs (aggregat mental event called "thinking of dogs". -------------------------------------------------------- ................................................ NEW TG: I'm not actually sure of what you're saying here so I'll pass for now. ...................................................................... The dependency and impermanence of "concepts" can be observed through mindfulness. Concepts are generally the central aspect of the activity of thought. As such they alter in conformity to the alteration of thoughts. CAT DOG MOUSE. If you read the former and watch the minds response, you can see and feel the mind bending to conform to the concepts being communicated. The concepts are dependent on conditions and alter in conformity to conditions. Concepts are just a part of mentality. -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: As I see it, we use the word 'concept' as a means of talking about thinking, but that no actual mental "things" correspond to that name. It is just a verbal convenience. Sights and sounds, on the other hand, are the actual mental object-content when seeing and hearing. -------------------------------------------------------- ................................................ NEW TG: I think I would disagree with this if I'm understanding it correctly. Concepts are ideas. Ideas are actual object-content of thinking. They stem from memories of experiences. Most likely deluded yes, but that's beside the point. Thanks for the comments. I'd be interested in your take on my responses. ................................................. If we didn't have the experience of "pink," or "elephant," we wouldn't be able to combine those experiences into the concept "pink-elephant.ab "Pink-elephant" is not some sort of un-real existent. It is just -- thought/concept/thought/concept/mental imagery -- dependent on th conditions and only lasts as long as those conditions are together..."as long as those condit Concepts are likely delusional yes, but delusion arises, alters, and ceases according to conditions. You seem to think a "concept" is somehow some "universal free-floating non-dependent non-impermanent absolute." I'm not going down that road. Sounds like another invention not found in the Buddha's teaching. TG OUT ================================ #83857 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Mar 8, 2008 3:05 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: mettaa. the present moment ... Are We Real ? .. jonoabb Hi Alex Alex wrote: > If a person doesn't consider "Self" in any shape or form, in > aggregates, 6 sixes or in anywhere or anyone - Isn't that enough in > terms of intellectual study? I remember a sutta quote where Buddha says > something like > "one becomes learned that nothing is worth clinging to..." > You and I obviously see things differently ;-)) To me, not considering "self" in the aggregates/6 sixes is a function of developed panna, and not something that comes as part of intellectual study. The intellectual study can only help one understand that we *do* take things for "self" and that this is because of accumulated wrong view. So that's why I said in my previous post that it all has to begin with the understanding of dhammas such as seeing and visible object. Or do you not see this as part of the development of insight? > If a person considers that, what use is it to study the tiny specifics > (over which MANY people have argued and formed new schools) since the > answer is the same: Self isn't to be found anywhere, and it is ignorant > and pointless to consider it as "Ineffable, beyond 5 aggregates". > I'm not sure what you have in mind by the "tiny specifics" (awareness of seeing and visible object, perhaps? ;-)). Yes, it's true that self isn't to be found anywhere. But we still have the accumulated wrong view that takes things for self, and this doesn't go away just because we've studied the teachings and accept at an intellectual level what we have read ;-)) Jon #83858 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Mar 8, 2008 11:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Love them "dhammas" (Concepts) upasaka_howard Hi, TG - In a message dated 3/8/2008 5:56:06 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@... writes: --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: What would no longer be the case, as i see it, is two kinds of things: 1) actual dogs (aggregations, from my perspective)1) actual dogs (aggregat mental event called "thinking of dogs". -------------------------------------------------------- ................................................ NEW TG: I'm not actually sure of what you're saying here so I'll pass for now. ============================== Given the way your post printed out, I'm not sure either! ;-)) With metta, Howard #83859 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Mar 8, 2008 11:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Love them "dhammas" (Concepts) upasaka_howard Hi, TG - In a message dated 3/8/2008 5:56:06 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@... writes: Howard: As I see it, we use the word 'concept' as a means of talking about thinking, but that no actual mental "things" correspond to that name. It is just a verbal convenience. Sights and sounds, on the other hand, are the actual mental object-content when seeing and hearing. -------------------------------------------------------- ................................................ NEW TG: I think I would disagree with this if I'm understanding it correctly. Concepts are ideas. Ideas are actual object-content of thinking. They stem from memories of experiences. Most likely deluded yes, but that's beside the point. Thanks for the comments. I'd be interested in your take on my responses. =============================== I don't think this is all that important - so I'd just as soon drop it. :-) With metta, Howard #83860 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sat Mar 8, 2008 12:22 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Love them "dhammas" (The All and Concepts) TGrand458@... Hi Alex If I understand you correctly, seems you are saying concepts are primarily "perception" and I agree with that. I slightly disagree with part of the second paragraph where you generally say that one needs to focus on one's "internal insubstantiality," not "outer things." My reading of the Suttas sees them discussing both inner and outer things....with maybe a (very roughly) 65 to 35 emphasis on "inner things." I think a (internal and external) "totality view" of conditionality, impermanence, affliction (from impermanence and pain), and nonself is very useful and perhaps necessary. Thanks for the comments! I mostly agree with them. TG #83861 From: "Alex" Date: Sat Mar 8, 2008 5:51 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: mettaa. the present moment ... Are We Real ? .. truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > To me, not considering > "self" in the aggregates/6 sixes is a function of developed panna, >>> Did I say that it isn't? >>>> and not something that comes as part of intellectual study. The > intellectual study can only help one understand that we *do* take things for "self" and that this is because of accumulated wrong view. So that's why I said in my previous post that it all has to begin with the understanding of dhammas such as seeing and visible object. Or do you not see this as part of the development of insight? >>> This is why Meditation (Jhana) is an absolute MUST, to see the process of DO unfolding without a self. >>>> If a person considers that, what use is it to study the tiny specifics (over which MANY people have argued and formed new schools) since the > > answer is the same: Self isn't to be found anywhere, and it is ignorant > > and pointless to consider it as "Ineffable, beyond 5 aggregates". > > > > I'm not sure what you have in mind by the "tiny specifics" (awareness of seeing and visible object, perhaps? ;-)). >>>> Tiny specifics such as: How long/short is a mind moment. How many dhammas (75 or 100 or whatever) are there. Etc. > Yes, it's true that self isn't to be found anywhere. But we still have > the accumulated wrong view that takes things for self, and this doesn't > go away just because we've studied the teachings and accept at an > intellectual level what we have read ;-)) > > Jon > This is why meditation is a must. To train the citta along with its cetasikas to LET GO, RELINQUISH, STOP CRAVING (which conditions clinging to views, rites and rituals, belief in self, sensuality). Lots of Metta, Alex #83862 From: "Alex" Date: Sat Mar 8, 2008 6:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Love them "dhammas" (The All and Concepts) truth_aerator Hi TG, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@... wrote: > Hi Alex > If I understand you correctly, seems you are saying concepts are primarily "perception" and I agree with that. >>> Yes, especially the mind perceptions. > I slightly disagree with part of the second paragraph where you generally say that one needs to focus on one's "internal insubstantiality," not "outer things." My reading of the Suttas sees them discussing both inner and outer things....with maybe a (very roughly) 65 to 35 emphasis on "inner things." >>> A question: If one FULLY realized Anatta, will one then cling to outer objects (regardless of their ontological status)? No of course. The forms and colours are NOT the fetter, craving is. Besides, full comprehension of "internal" rupa can be applied to external rupa as well. Same with other 4 aggregates. Lots of Metta, Alex #83863 From: han tun Date: Sat Mar 8, 2008 6:28 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Patthaana (14) hantun1 Dear Sarah, Thank you very much for finding SN 1. 10 (10) Forest: Ara~n~na sutta for me. Earlier, I got references to MN 131 and MN 134 from Nina. They are all very good. I will be most grateful if you can kindly find the sutta title or sutta number, from which Bkhikkhu Samahita quoted the following passage. The past should neither be longed for nor dwelled in and the future neither desired, searched nor urged; what is past, not real anymore, is dead & gone, and the future, not real now, have yet to come! Majjhima Nikaya III, 131 Thank you very much. Respectfully, Han #83864 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Mar 8, 2008 7:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism XX, 'Knowledge of What is/is not the Path' lbidd2 Hi Ken, Ken: "I think I need to go back to the beginning and see where this hypothetical meditator fits in. Larry, I remember you writing quite a lot about him; can you give me a refresher - if it's not too much trouble? Sorry for the inconvenience." Larry: To begin at the Purification of View, the meditator is one who discerns the delimitation of nama and rupa by way of recognizing every _kind_ of nama and rupa in his experience. There are various ways of doing this "in brief" or "in detail". All this has to do with particular characteristics, their function, manifestation and proximate cause. For example, the pain of painful feeling is a particular characteristic not shared by any other kind of dhamma. With each recognition of a particular dhamma a "tender" insight (glimpse) arises for the meditator who accomplishes this purification that this kind of dhamma is not self, not me or mine. Because of this a little glimmer of understanding begins to arise that because one instance of feeling, for example, is not self, therefore no instance of feeling is self. This sounds obvious only because it is conceptual and not truly incorporated into one's actual view. At the level of tender insight it can still be quite significant. Even with this purification there is still plenty of attachment to self view. Hence Purification by Overcoming Doubt arises next. "Doubt" is doubt regarding self in the three times: past, present, and future. This doubt is formulated as 16 doubts: Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what was I in the past? Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I be in the future? Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Whence will this being have come? Whither will it be bound? We have these doubts all the time. They are overcome by reasoning through the dependent arising of dhammas in our experience with particular characteristics. There are various ways of understanding this dependent arising. For example as general and particular conditions (e.g. doors and objects or eye and visible data), as dependent arising in forward and reverse order, and as kamma and kamma result. With this understanding the insight arises that there is no doer but there are consequences to actions. This is conceptual understanding but at the level of insight. That is, it makes a difference in one's assumptions, clinging to views. These two purifications are classed as "full understanding as the known". They are all about the particular characteristics of one's experience: sweet, hot, red, anger, etc., and the conditions that cause their arising. Next comes understanding the general characteristics: impermanence, unsatisfactoriness, not self. There are two levels of understanding these general characteristics: full understanding as investigation and full understanding as abandoning. The meditator investigates impermanence, for example, and then because of that investigation an attachment is abandoned. We will be exploring these two levels throughout the remainder of the Visuddhimagga. Dhammas with particular characteristics are still the "working basis," you might say, but we wll be looking to penetrate the implications of the general characteristics. Larry #83865 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sat Mar 8, 2008 2:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Love them "dhammas" (The All and Concepts) TGrand458@... In a message dated 3/8/2008 7:03:06 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, truth_aerator@... writes: A question: If one FULLY realized Anatta, will one then cling to outer objects (regardless of their ontological status)? No of course. The forms and colours are NOT the fetter, craving is. Besides, full comprehension of "internal" rupa can be applied to external rupa as well. Same with other 4 aggregates. Lots of Metta, Alex ......................................... Hi Alex Certainly agree with your craving comment. And I agree that "internal" rupa can be applied to the external. The same works in reverse however...in the sense of observation of conditional interactions and alterations, and the principles thereof, can be applied to "the internal." I tend not to see "the external" and "internal" as all that separate however. Interactions flow in and out between the two so continuously and in mutual support of each other. But the "internal" is the "instrument" that is able to experience and is central to the concerns of the Buddha's teaching of suffering and its ending. So it would be expected to be the focus of a teaching dealing with that. As far as clinging goes, nothing should be clung to in anyway at all. I think this is what you were saying. Deeply understanding the unsatisfactory aspects of impermanence, as well as knowing (insightfully seeing) there is no self to lose in the first place, due to conditionality, makes the mind more apt to detach from all conditions. The conditioned world needs to be seen as just a bunch of crap. LOL TG #83866 From: han tun Date: Sat Mar 8, 2008 8:43 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (17) hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much, Nina; I learn a lot from your post. I take note of the following points. Nina: Also outside the Buddha sasana people could have these, accompanied by pa~n~naa, or let us say: pa~n~nindriya. Pa~n~naa can condiiton the accompanying dhammas by indriya-paccaya, faculty-condition. Also people who confess other religions can have kusala citta, and also kusala citta with pa~n~naa. Think of the very wise words we can hear from other religious leaders, and why not? It is good to think of the citta, that it is the citta that matters, otherwise we would think: only Buddhists can have pa~n~naa. It is also useful to know about the five indriyas. I did not realize that two indriyas (energy and concentration) can be akusala or sobhana, but the other three indriyas are always sobhana. I also take note of the following three faculties: (1) the faculty of “I-shall-come-to-know-the-unknown” (2) the “higher knowledge faculty” (3) the “faculty of him who knows” Do you have Pali words for these three faculties? Thank you very much once again. Respectfully, Han #83867 From: han tun Date: Sat Mar 8, 2008 9:00 pm Subject: Perfections Corner (102) hantun1 Dear All, This is the presentation in installment of The Perfections Leading to Enlightenment by Ajahn Sujin Boriharnwanaket; and translated by Nina van Gorkom. http://www.zolag.co.uk/ - Chapter 6: The Perfection of Patience (continuation) People may believe that it is too difficult to have patience to listen and to read the Tipiìaka, but one needs patience and endurance in all respects and in all situations. When we think of the past lives of the disciples, we see that before they developed patience to a high degree, they had attachment (lobha), aversion (dosa) and ignorance (moha). They had a great deal of akusala, just as people today. However, they had developed pa~n~naa and they understood the benefit of patience and of wholesome qualities. Therefore, they could with patience develop all kinds of kusala so that finally the perfections could reach fulfilment through the realization of the four noble Truths. Before we can reach fulfilment of the perfections, we should continue to develop them with patience and endurance, life after life, and this is “cira kaala bhaavana”, a development which takes a long time (cira kaala). It takes a long time to develop pa~n~naa to the degree that it can eradicate defilements. When we see the extent of the defilements we still have, it is evident that the development of paññå must take an endlessly long time. Defilements cannot be eradicated if we do not listen to the Dhamma and do not contemplate it. All the teachings we listen to deal with the development of paññå and the eradication of defilements. If we have patience with the development of the perfections they will reach fulfilment, we do not develop them in vain: eventually they will reach maturity and that means that the four noble Truths can be realized. The perfections of the Exalted One, the Sammåsambuddha, reached maturity and fulfilment so that he could attain Buddhahood at the foot of the Bodhi-tree in Bodhgaya. The buddhist followers who are full of confidence in the Buddha wish to pay respect at the holy places where the most important events in the cycle of birth and death took place. However, when we pay respect at the holy places, we should also consider the Buddha’s teachings with wise attention. Reflection on the patience of the Buddha’s disciples in different lives can inspire us also to develop patience and endurance even with regard to ordinary events of daily life. We read in the “Kassapamandiya Jaataka”(no. 312): “At that time while the Buddha was residing in the Jeta Grove he spoke about an aged monk, and he gave this explanation of the Dhamma, with the words beginning with ‘should foolish youths...’ (appikassapamandiya). A young nobleman at Såvatthi, tradition says, saw the danger of sense pleasures and received ordination at the hands of the Buddha. Within a short time he attained arahatship. After that, when his mother had died, he persuaded his father and younger brother to become monks and to take residence in the Jeta Grove. Near the beginning of the rainy season they took their residence in a village where the requisites were easily obtained, so that they could observe the rainy season there. When the rainy season was over they returned to the Jeta Grove. The youthful monk ordered the novice, his younger brother, to let the elderly monk first take a rest, and then to take him along quietly. He himself would go ahead to prepare beforehand the lodgings in the Jeta Grove. The elderly monk walked very slowly and the novice butted him as it were with his head in order to make him walk on. Then the elderly monk turned back and started anew from the same point, and this went on until sunset, and when they reached the Jeta Grove it was already dark. The young monk who was the elder brother waited for them until the evening, he took a torch and went to meet them. When he asked the reason why they came so slowly, the elderly monk who was the father told him what had happened. On that day the young monk could not pay his respects to the Buddha. The next day when that monk went to pay his respects to the Buddha, the Buddha knew that that monk had arrived on the previous day but had not come to pay his respects. Therefore, he blamed the elderly monk and he said that also in a past life he had acted likewise.” We may wonder why the elderly monk who was the father had to be blamed, and not the novice who was the younger son. Who should have patience? To be continued. Metta, Han #83868 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Mar 8, 2008 10:23 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Patthaana (14) sarahprocter... Dear Han, --- han tun wrote: > I will be most grateful if you can kindly find the > sutta title or sutta number, from which Bkhikkhu > Samahita quoted the following passage. > > The past should neither be longed for nor dwelled in > and the future neither desired, searched nor urged; > what is past, not real anymore, is dead & gone, > and the future, not real now, have yet to come! > Majjhima Nikaya III, 131 .... S: This is the Bhaddekaratta Sutta again, MN 131. The Pali ref is iii 187, so I think III refers to the Pali book and 131 to the number of the sutta. Let me know if there are any others. Metta, Sarah ======== #83869 From: han tun Date: Sun Mar 9, 2008 12:24 am Subject: Patthaana (19) hantun1 Dear All, This is the continuation of (2). Object condition (aaramma.na-paccaya). When we studied the Root condition (hetu-paccaya), we learn that the six roots (lobha, dosa, moha, alobha, adosa, amoha) support the cittas, and the cetasikas associated with them, and also the cittaja-ruupas (matter formed by cittas), in the same way the roots of a tree support the tree. However, before the six roots can support the cittas, cetasikas, and cittaja-ruupas, they themselves need conditions for their own arising, and one of the conditions is the object or aaramma.na. Although the books do not exactly say so, I consider that it is a case where one condition conditions another condition, i.e., object condition conditions root condition. Ashin Janakaabhivamsa said that without object, there cannot even be a citta. In fact, object plays a very significant role in Patthaana. Out of 24 conditions, object (aaramma.na) is involved in 5 conditions. 2. Object condition (aaramma.na-paccaya) 3. Predominance condition (adhipati-paccaya) ….. object predominance (aaramma.naadhipati) 8. Dependence condition (nissaya-paccaya) ….. base-object-prenascence dependence (vatthaaramma.na-purejaata-nissaya) 9. Decisive support condition (upanissaya-paccaya) ….. object decisive support (aaramma.nuupanissaya) 10. Prenascence condition (purejaata-paccaya) ….. object prenascence (aaramma.na-purejaata) In daily life, one has to be very careful with the objects entering the five physical sense doors and the mind door all the time. With ayoniso-manasikaara these objects can easily lead to akusala cittas, and only with yoniso-manasikaara and satipatthaana these objects can lead to kusala cittas. Thus sense restraint is very important in one’s daily life. The Buddha teaches the importance of sense-restraint in SN 46.6 Ku.n.daliya sutta (translation Bhikkhu Bodhi). “Restraint of the sense faculties, Ku.n.daliya, when developed and cultivated, fulfils the three kinds of good conduct. “And how, Ku.n.daliya, is restraint of the sense faculties developed and cultivated so that it fulfils the three kinds of good conduct? Here, Ku.n.daliya, having seen an agreeable form with the eye, a bhikkhu does not long for it, or become excited by it, or generate lust for it. His body is steady and his mind is steady, inwardly well composed and well liberated. But having seen a disagreeable form with the eye, he is not dismayed by it, not daunted, not dejected, without ill will. His body is steady and his mind is steady, inwardly well composed and well liberated.” --------------------- Having said that I wish to deal with the conditioning states of the Object condition. Please read the first verse of the Object condition (which I had mentioned in my last post). (1) Ruupaayatana.m cakkhuvi~n~naa.nadhaatuyaa tamsampayuttakaana~nca dhammaanam aaramma.napaccayena paccayo. Visible object-base is related to eye-consciousness element and its associated states by object condition. From this verse, it appears that ruupaayatana (matter) conditions cakkhuvi~n~naa.na (mind), i.e. only Matter for Mind. But from the Groupings, the Object condition belongs to Group E. Mind-and-Matter for Mind. However, the first Pali verse up to the sixth Pali verse of Object condition (that I had written in my last post), denote only Matter for Mind. So to me there is a discrepancy and the verses do not adequately portray the complete picture of the Object condition. To understand the complete picture of the Object condition I refer to MN 148 Chachakka Sutta: The Six Sets of Six (translation by Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi). The Buddha said: “Bhikkhus, dependent on the eye (cakkhu) and forms (ruupa), eye-consciousness (cakkhu-vi~n~naana) arises; the meeting of the three is contact (phassa); with contact as condition there arises a feeling (vedanaa) felt as pleasant (sukha) or painful (dukkha) or neither-painful-nor-pleasant (adukkha-masukha). When one is touched by a pleasant feeling, if one delights in it, welcomes it, and remains holding to it, then the underlying tendency to lust (raagaa-anusaya) lies within one. When one is touched by a painful feeling, if one sorrows, grieves and laments, weeps beating one’s breast and becomes distraught, then the underlying tendency to aversion (patighaa-anusaya) lies within one. When one is touched by neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling, if one does not understand as it actually is the origination, the disappearance, the gratification, the danger, and the escape in regard to that feeling, then the underlying tendency to ignorance (avijjaa-anusaya) lies within one.” According to this sutta, eye (matter) + forms (matter) + eye-consciousness (mind) are the three conditioning states, and contact, feelings, underlying tendencies (all mind) are the conditioned states. Thus this formula portrays the complete picture of the Object condition, i.e., Mind-and-Matter for Mind. On page 308 of A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma, the conditioning states of Object condition are 89 cittas, 52 cetasikas, 28 material, Nibbaana, and concepts. I do not intend to go that far, but if I can show that the conditioning states of Object condition is not just the Matter as the Pali verses imply, but it consists of not only the matter but also the mind as well, I will be satisfied. In this post, there are a few points which are my own interpretations, and Nina and others may disagree. If so, I will be most grateful to know so that I can correct myself. Metta, Han #83870 From: han tun Date: Sun Mar 9, 2008 12:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Patthaana (14) hantun1 Dear Sarah, Thank you very much. I have nothing more to look for at the moment. Respectfully, Han #83871 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Mar 9, 2008 1:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] He experiences pain and grief that have right view as condition... sarahprocter... Hi Alex, --- Alex wrote: > Mahadhammasamâdâna Sutta MN46 > http://www.mettanet.org/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima- > Nikaya/Majjhima1/046-mahadhammasamadana-p.html > <..> > "Sahaapi [PTS Page 315] [\q 315/] dukkhena sahapi domanassena > sammadi.t.thi hoti. Sammaadi.t.thipaccaya ca dukkha.m domanassa.m > pa.tisa.mvedeti. " - MN46 .... S: "....he holds right view, and he experiences pain and grief that have right view as condition. On the dissolution of the body, after death, he reappears in a happy destination....." As I suggested, by decisive support condition, kusala can condition akusala and vice versa. The way I understand the phrase is that even right view can be a condition for akusala kamma in the past to bring its result now. For example, it may be with right view that someone abstains from killing. Because of past akusala kamma, they may get hurt. In this way, the kusala may be an indirect support or condition for the kamma to bring its result in the way of painful bodily feeling, followed by grief. The analogy is given of drinking fermented urine and various medicines. It doesn't agree with the patient, but after drinking it the patient becomes well. It's an interesting point. By studying the Abhidhamma, we learn more and more about the complexity of cittas, cetasikas, rupas and their conditions. Metta, Sarah ======= #83872 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Mar 9, 2008 1:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] He experiences pain and grief that have right view as condition... sarahprocter... Alex, p.s. I meant to stress that it's impossible for the right view to arise at the same time as the akusala vipaka or akusala cittas with domanassa, however. This doesn't mean that right view that has just fallen away or which arose long ago cannot be a condition in the way I mentioned. S. --- sarah abbott wrote: > As I suggested, by decisive support condition, kusala can condition > akusala and vice versa. The way I understand the phrase is that even > right > view can be a condition for akusala kamma in the past to bring its > result > now. For example, it may be with right view that someone abstains from > killing. Because of past akusala kamma, they may get hurt. In this way, > the kusala may be an indirect support or condition for the kamma to > bring > its result in the way of painful bodily feeling, followed by grief. #83873 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Mar 9, 2008 1:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma vs. Yogacara Views of Consciousness sarahprocter... Hi Alex, --- Alex wrote: > Interesting line found in MN26: > > 'Alayaraamaa kho panaaya,m pajaa aalayarataa aalayasammuditaa. > aalayaraamaaya kho pana pajaaya àlayarataaya aalayasammuditaaya > duddasa.m ida.m. thaana.m yadida.m idappaccayataa pa. ticcasamuppaado. > http://www.mettanet.org/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima- > Nikaya/Majjhima1/026-ariyapariyesana-sutta-e1.html > > So "Alaya" isn't stricly found only in later literature... > This is the abode, the roosting place of Causes (ie Kamma), which > survives temporary cessations of 6 senses. This solves the mystery of > gone causes. ... S: We've discussed alaya before. It doesn't mean 'abode' or 'resting place'. It means attachment, sense pleasure, adhesion. See: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/78622 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/19473 From the first of these: S:>B.bodhi’s translation (AN 4s, 78 ‘Four Wonderful Things’, p.109 in Anthology) reads: "People generally find pleasure in attachments, take delight in attachments and enjoy attachments. but when the dhamma of non-attachment is taught by the Tathagata, people wish to listen to it, give ear and try to understand it. this is the first wonderful and marvellous thing that appears on the manifestation of a Tathagata, an Arahant, a Fully Enlightened One. (Pali Anguttaranikaya (A II, p.131): Alayarama bhikkhave paja alayarata alayasammudita, sa Tathagatena analaye dhamme desiyamane sussuyati sotam odahati annacittam upattapeti. Tathagatassa bhikkhave arahato sammasambuddhassa patubhava ayam pathamo acchariyo abbhuto dhammo patubhavati.) ***** These meanings of aalaya conform with the common meaning given above, i.e ‘attachment,desire, craving, lust’. There is no suggestion of citta or vinnana or luminous or soul or self. As I mentioned before, I see no suggestion of ‘alaya’ in the Pali Canon referring to any store consciousness either in any aspect.< ***** ***** In the sutta you mention, MN 26, Nanamoli/Bodhi translate: " 'This Dhamma I have attained is profound, hard to see and hard to understand, peaceful and sublime, unattainable by mere reasoning, subtle, to be experienced by the wise. But this generation delights in adhesion, takes delight in adhesion, rejoices in adhesion.' " Note 306: "Aalaya. It is difficult to find for this word a suitable English translation equivalent that has not already been assigned to a more frequently occurring Pali term. Horner renders it as "sensual pleasure." which appropriates the usual rendering of kaama and may be too narrow. In Ms and in other published works Nanamoli translates it as "something to rely on," which may draw upon a connotation of the word that is not the one intended here. MA explains aalaya as comprising both objective sense pleasures and the thoughts of craving concerned with them; thus "adhesion" has been chosed as sharing this twofold meaning of the original." I have no idea what aalaya has to do with the topic of discussion, but hope it helps. To continue the quote from MN 26, after the part about this generation delighting in adhesion, it says: "It is hard for such a generation to see the truth, namely, specific conditionality, dependent origination. And it is hard to see this truth, namely, the stilling of all formations, the relinquishing of all attachments, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, Nibbaana." S: It is not any 'abode' or 'store-house' or 'resting-place' that is the obstacle to understanding the truth, it is the delighting in sense pleasures and ignorance that hinders. Metta, Sarah ===== #83874 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Mar 9, 2008 3:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (17) nilovg Dear Tep, Op 8-mrt-2008, om 21:38 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > T: The Dhammasangani defines pa~n~nindriya to include several aspects > with samma-ditthi as the top quality. > "What on that occasion is the faculty of insight (pa~n~nindriya.m)? > The insight which there is on that occasion is understanding, search, > research, > T: So it is obvious that the puthujjana does not have pa~n~nindriya > simply because there is no right view in the worldling !! Since > pa~n~naa > and pa~n~nindriya are equivalent/synonym, I doubt if you may find > pa~n~naa in other religions outside Buddhism. ------- N: Perhaps we can better understand all these texts when we remember that pa~n~naa is momentary. It arises with the citta and then falls away. You wrote that the puthujjana has not overcome wrong view, and that is right. He has not eradicated it. But this does not mean that moments of wrong view can be alternated with some degree of understanding. Also intellectual understanding is pa~n~naa, there are many degrees of understanding. You may read in a text about the highest pa~n~naa, but we have to consider the context. A certain aspect is given, but it is not to be applied to all kinds of pa~n~naa arising in all cases. Different texts emphasize different aspects of pa~n~naa. Then we can understand that as the Dispeller of Delusion (Co. to the Vibhanga) states in Ch 2 (p. 59) : < The characteristics of impermanence and pain are made known with or without the arising of the Tathaagatas. The characteristic of no-self is not made known without the arising of Enlightened Ones; it is made known only on the arising of Enlightened Ones.> Moreover also outside Buddhism wise people know the difference between kusala and akusala, but the Buddha taught all details. When you consider the reality now, such as visible object, that which appears through eyesense only and you understand that this is seen, that not a person is seen, there is already a degree of pa~n~naa developing. At such a moment the latent tendency of wrong view is wearing away ever so slightly. That is the way it goes. It takes a long time, ciira kala bhaavanaa. I quote from Han's Perfections corner: Nina. #83875 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Mar 9, 2008 4:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Seeing present moment. 11 surefire things for Liberation. Jhana sarahprocter... Hi Alex (Howard & all), --- Alex wrote: >....'Infinite space,' I entered & remained in the dimension > of the infinitude of space. > > "As I remained there, I was beset with attention to perceptions > dealing with forms. That was an affliction for me. Just as pain > arises as an affliction for a healthy person, even so the attention > to perceptions dealing with forms that beset me was an affliction for > me. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.041.than.html > > Note "As I remained there [5th Jhana]". .... S: The Buddha realised that even the highest jhanas were temporary states of disspassion and detachment from defilements and sense objects. He saw the unsatisfactoriness, the suffering of such impermanent states. What is the object of thinking now? Is it thinking about dhammas or the computer or the Buddha? At any moment of such thinking when a concept is conceived, there is no visible object or sound appearing. However, cittas follow each other so rapidly, sense-door and mind-door processes, that it seems there is light, colour and sound all the time. At the moments of jhana, the object is almost always a concept too, a mental image or pa.tibhaaganimitta. At such moments, there is no distraction, the hindrances are suppressed and the citta and cetasikas are absorbed in the object. No other object appears, so there is no sound, no visible object or other sense object appearing. Immediately after the jhana cittas fall away, sense-door processes are experienced again. It depends on the level of jhana and skill, whether such jhana cittas last for one moment or a very long time. Of course suttas (as the ones you quote from, like above) can be selected, translated and interpreted in different ways. Without some understanding of the Abhidhamma, I think they're bound to be mis-interpreted. Metta, Sarah ======= #83876 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Mar 8, 2008 11:58 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] He experiences pain and grief that have right view as condition... upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and Alex) - In a message dated 3/9/2008 5:01:50 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Hi Alex, --- Alex wrote: > Mahadhammasamâdâna Sutta MN46 > http://www.mettanet.org/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima- > Nikaya/Majjhima1/046-mahadhammasamadana-p.html > <..> > "Sahaapi [PTS Page 315] [\q 315/] dukkhena sahapi domanassena > sammadi.t.thi hoti. Sammaadi.t.thipaccaya ca dukkha.m domanassa.m > pa.tisa.mvedeti. " - MN46 .... S: "....he holds right view, and he experiences pain and grief that have right view as condition. On the dissolution of the body, after death, he reappears in a happy destination....." As I suggested, by decisive support condition, kusala can condition akusala and vice versa. The way I understand the phrase is that even right view can be a condition for akusala kamma in the past to bring its result now. For example, it may be with right view that someone abstains from killing. Because of past akusala kamma, they may get hurt. In this way, the kusala may be an indirect support or condition for the kamma to bring its result in the way of painful bodily feeling, followed by grief. The analogy is given of drinking fermented urine and various medicines. It doesn't agree with the patient, but after drinking it the patient becomes well. It's an interesting point. By studying the Abhidhamma, we learn more and more about the complexity of cittas, cetasikas, rupas and their conditions. Metta, Sarah ================================= This makes very good sense to me, at both the commonsense level, the direct-life-experience level, and the level of detailed explanation. Often I get the impression conveyed, including on DSG at times, that only kusala comes from kusala, and akusala from akusala, a position that has never made sense to me. The key fact that I think helps in understanding this and other matters is the many(conditioning factors)-to-many(effects) aspect of conditionality. What is important as regards this particular matter is, I think, that a group of conditions, mixed in wholesomeness, might lead to a result that is wholesome or to one that is not wholesome, the details being determined by the specific conditions involved. One translation of 'idappaccayata' is "specific conditionality": Everything that occurs does so in a very specific fashion. With metta, Howard #83877 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Mar 9, 2008 6:24 am Subject: Jhana processes 1 sarahprocter... Dear Alex & All, It may be helpful to review some of the detail of the processes involving jhana cittas. I think in this way it becomes more apparent why sense objects cannot be experienced at the same time as jhana cittas. Htoo wrote on this subject at length, based on CMA (Abhidhammattha Sangaha, edited by B.Bodhi). For example, he wrote: H: "When cittas are flowing in JJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJ, the samadhi at that time is called appana samadhi. Appana means 'close' 'very close' 'very very close'. It is so close that citta appraoches to the object and touch each other and fuses into one singleness and becomes unshakable. Once The Buddha was in 4th jhana. There were lightening, thundering, loud noice etc etc. 'Your recluse, did you hear the thundering and lightening?' ''No. I did not hear anything'', answered The Buddha. This is because The Buddha was in 4th jhana. JJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJ endless and there is no pancadvara avajjana citta can arise at that time. It is not the condition for arising of pancadvara avajjana which otherwise might advert to thundering and lightening. But The Buddha was in 4th rupa jhana. That is absorptive jhana. That is appana jhana and the samadhi in that jhana is appana samadhi." [S: pancadvara avajjana citta refers to the 5 sense-door averting consciousness. In other words, no sense-door processes at such times]. ***** S:In another message in his Abhidhamma series, he wrote: Htoo: "When jhaana arises for the first time, it only takes a single monent. Jhaana vithi vara [absorptive procession-consciousness model] BBBBB.MPUAGJB.BBBBBBBB B = bhavanga-citta or life-continuing-consciousness M = mano-dvara-avajjana-citta or mind-door-adverting-consciousness P = parikamma-mahakusala-citta or preparatory-wholesome-consciousness U = upacaara-mahakusala-citta or proximate-wholesome-consciousness A = anuloma-mahakusala-citta or speedy-wholesome-consciousness negotiating-wholesome-consciousness G = gotrabhu-mahakusala-citta or lineage-changing-consciousness J = 1st jhaana citta or ruupavacara ruupakusala 1st jhaana citta or simply '1st jhaana'" ***** S: In Abhidhamma in Daily Life, by Nina, in ch 22 'Jhana Cittas', we read: "As regards jhanacitta, jhanacittas do not have as their object, visible object, sound, or any other sense- impression. Jhanacittas arise in a process of cittas experiencing a meditation subject through the mind-door. In this process there are first kamavacara cittas which experience the meditation subject and then, in that same process, the jhanacitta arises. The process is as follows: kamavacara-cittas: mano-dvaravajjana-citta or mind-door-adverting-consciousness parikamma or preparatory consciousness upacara, which means: proximatory or access anuloma or adaptation gotrabhu, which means: that which overcomes the sense-sphere, or 'change of lineage' jhana-citta: appana or absorption (the moment of cittawhich attains jhana) For some, 'parikamma' (preparatory consciousness) is not necessary, and in this case there are, after the mind-door-adverting-consciousness, only three kamavacara cittas arising, instead of four, before the jhanacitta arises. Gotrabhu (which 'overcomes' the sense-sphere) is the last citta in that process which is kamavacara citta." ***** Metta, Sarah ======= #83878 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Mar 9, 2008 6:50 am Subject: Jhana processes 2 sarahprocter... Dear Alex & All, Continuing with details about jhana processes, the following are 3 extracts from Sujin's book 'Survey of Paramattha Dhammas', translated by Nina. http://www.abhidhamma.org/survey6.pdf 1."Ruupaavacara citta and aruupaavacara citta are sublime consciousness, mahaggataa citta. The “Atthasaaliní” (I, Book I, Part I, Maatikaa I, Triplets, 44) states: “...Sublime (mahaggataa) means, “having reached greatness“, from ability to discard corruptions, from the abundance of fruition, from the length of duration...” It is most difficult to discard defilements. As soon as we have seen an object, like or dislike arises. However, when there is attainment concentration (appanaa samaadhi), thus, when there is jhaanacitta, the citta is calm and one-pointed on the meditation subject that is experienced through the mind-door. At such moments there is no seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting or the experience of tangible object. When there are jhaanacittas, no matter for how long, there cannot be bhavanga-cittas in between, such as in the case of kaamaavacara cittas." ***** 2."The jhaanacitta is of a higher level of citta, it is of a plane of citta that is free from the sense sphere (kaamaavacara citta). In the mind-door process during which jhaana is attained, there are the following cittas arising in succession: -bhavanga-citta, which is mahaa-vipaaka ~naa.na-sampayutta; -bhavanga calana (vibrating bhavanga), which is mahaa-vipaaka, ~naa.na-sampayutta; -bhavangupaccheda (arrest bhavanga), which is mahaa-vipaaka, ~naa.na-sampayutta; -manodvaarvajjana-citta, which is ahetuka kiriyacitta; -parikamma (preparatory citta) which is mahaa-kusala citta, ~naa.na-sampayutta; -upacaara (access) which is mahaa-kusala citta, ~naa.na-sampayutta (of the same type as parikamma); -anuloma (adaptation) which is mahaa-kusala citta, ~naa.na-sampayutta (of the same type as parikamma); -gotrabhuu (change of lineage) which is mahaa-kusala citta, ~naa.na-sampayutta (of the same type as parikamma); -kusala citta of the first stage of jhaana, which is ruupaavacara kusala citta; -bhavanga-citta, which is mahaa-vipaakacitta, ~naa.na-sampayutta When jhaana is attained for the first time, there is only one moment of ruupaavacara kusala citta, whereas, later on, when one’s skill has increased, there can be more jhaanacittas arising in succession without the arising of bhavanga-cittas in between. Such a process of jhaanacittas is called “jhaana-samaapatti”, jhaana attainment. It is the attainment to the citta that is calm and firmly concentrated on the object of jhaana. Then jhaanacittas arise successively during the length of time determined upon by the meditator." **** 3. "The mahaggataa cittas, “sublime cittas”, namely the ruupaavacara cittas and the aruupaavacara cittas, are cittas that have reached excellence because they can subdue defilements. When there is attainment concentration, when jhaanacittas arise and fall away in succession, there is no seeing, no hearing, no experience of an object through one of the sense-doors, neither is there thinking about these objects. That is the reason why it is said that mahaggataa citta discards defilements. However, when the jhaanacittas have fallen away completely, kaamaavacara cittas arise again. When there are cittas arising in processes that experience objects through the different doorways, akusala javana-citta has the opportunity to arise if one does not perform kusala. So long as defilements have not been eradicated completely, akusala citta is likely to arise after seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and the experience of tangible object. Do we realize that akusala citta arises time and again? If one does not realize this, one cannot subdue defilements nor can one develop the way leading to the eradication of defilements. Before the Buddha’s enlightenment there were people who saw the disadvantages and the danger of akusala cittas which arise very soon after seeing, hearing and the other sense-cognitions. Therefore, they tried to find a way to temporarily subdue defilements. They found out that the only way leading to that goal was not to see, to hear or to experience the other sense objects. When one experiences sense objects one cannot prevent the arising of defilements. People who understood this could cultivate the way of kusala which leads to true calm, temporary freedom from attachment (lobha), aversion (dosa) and ignorance (moha), and this is realized at the moment of attainment concentration, appanaa samaadhi. At the moment of jhaanacitta there are no sense impressions. There is only the experience of the meditation subject through the mind-door and this is a condition for the citta to be firmly established in calm and one-pointedness on that object. Attainment concentration that is reached when jhaanacitta arises does not lead to the complete eradication of defilements. When the jhaanacittas have fallen away defilements have the opportunity to arise again." ***** I hope this is helpful. Metta, Sarah ======== #83879 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Mar 9, 2008 8:03 am Subject: Re: Patthaana (17) dhammanusara Dear Nina (Alex, Han, Scott), - The Patism. says there are 16 kinds of views(ditthi) that are not right view [Patism Threatise II, 6. Katamam solasa ditthiyo?]. Do you not think that the main reason we (you, I, Alex, Han, Jon, etc.) have different views about the Dhamma (Teachings of the Buddha about the dhammas) is because of ditthi? Only when we may attain the right view that is free from ditthi, only then we will no longer think differently (with different misinterpretations) about the Dhamma. Some examples of your interpretation of the Dhamma : >N: Perhaps we can better understand all these texts when we remember that pa~n~naa is momentary. ... Also intellectual understanding is pa~n~naa, there are many degrees of understanding. T: But that is not what the Dhammasangani says. >N: You may read in a text about the highest pa~n~naa, but we have to consider the context. T: When a "context" is considered, there is a view of the person [Or if you don't like to say "person", you may say 'citta associated with ditthi'.] that does the interpretation of what is context and what is not. >N: When you consider the reality now, such as visible object, that which appears through eyesense only and you understand that this is seen, that not a person is seen, there is already a degree of pa~n~naa developing. T: No. That is already pa~n~naa of an ariyan; a right view !! "Insofar as it is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self: Thus it is said, Ananda, that the world is empty. And what is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self? The eye is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self. Forms... Eye-consciousness... Eye-contact is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self". [Sunna Sutta, SN 35.85] Tep === #83880 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Mar 9, 2008 8:17 am Subject: Re: Patthaana (17) scottduncan2 Dear Tep, Thanks for the reply. Regarding: You: "...it is clear that there is a well-defined sotapattimagga mind-state that divides the first-level 'ariya puggala' from 'puthujjana'..." Me: "What, may I ask, is a 'mind-state'?" T: Citta & cetasikas defines a mindstate..." Scott: Correct, as I see it, if by this you mean that a mind-state is a term which refers to one moment of consciousness - a 'mind-state' does not last beyond its arising, presence and falling away. What is it upon which the view that pa~n~naa does not arise for the puthujjana is based? In other words, there is nothing in the statement above that supports that view. Isn't it the fact of having 'glimpsed Nibbaana' - the magga and phala cittas which have arisen and fallen away (two other sorts of 'mind-states') - that defines 'ariya-puggala'? T: "...The various mindsates are described in AN 10.51 : Sacitta Sutta." Scott: The sutta describes paccavekkhana ('self-examination'), and is in no way an exhaustive list of 'mind-states'. Sincerely, Scott. #83881 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Mar 9, 2008 8:26 am Subject: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 4, no 3. nilovg Dear friends, The Abhidhamma describes what is occurring in our life now: seeing, visible object, like or dislike of what is seen. This is also described in the Suttas, there is actually Abhidhamma in all the Suttas. The Abhidhamma and the Suttanta teach us about the dhammas that appear, they point to insight. Insight is the development of direct understanding of the dhamma appearing now, be it seeing, visible object, hearing, sound, or any other dhamma appearing through one of the six doors. Everything that is real is dhamma. We hear the sound of a car or of a bird and we immediately think about concepts such as car or bird. Sound is real, it impinges on the earsense. It has a characteristic that can be directly known when it appears. Car or bird are only objects of thinking, they are concepts. When we listen to the Dhamma we learn about ultimate realities: citta, consciousness, cetasika, mental factors accompanying citta, and rúpa, physical phenomena. They are conditioned dhammas, they arise each because of their own conditions and then they fall away. Nibbåna is the paramattha dhamma that is unconditioned, it does not arise and fall away. We cannot direct the conditions for the phenomena that arise, but we can develop more understanding of the fact that whatever arises is conditioned. Knowing that there are conditions for akusala helps not to keep on reproaching ourselves: I should not have akusala. There is also conceit when we think: “ ’I’ should be better, I am too good to have akusala”. We could not develop understanding without listening to the Dhamma, because the Dhamma is the Buddha’s teaching. Nobody else taught the three characteristics of all conditioned dhammas: their nature of impermanence, dukkha and anattå. When we have listened to the Dhamma and we carefully consider what we heard, we can develop understanding ourselves without being dependent on another person. We should investigate the different dhammas that appear in daily life, and this is the condition for beginning to be aware of their characteristics. One of my friends in Bangkok remarked that there is no other way to develop understanding, and that if we think that there is, it is just lobha, attachment. We read in the “Gradual Sayings” (Book of the Fives, Ch XVI, § 4, The confounding of Saddhamma) that the Buddha said to the monks: Monks, these five things lead to the confounding, the disappearance of Saddhamma. What five? Herein, monks, carelessly the monks hear Dhamma; carelessly they master it; carelessly they bear it in mind; carelessly they test the good [the meaning] of the things borne in mind; knowing the good and knowing the Dhamma, carelessly they go their ways [practise] in Dhamma by Dhamma. Verily, monks, these are the five things that lead to the confounding, the disappearance of Saddhamma. We read that if the monks carefully listen to the Dhamma, consider it and apply it, it leads to the stability of the Saddhamma (true Dhamma), to its being unconfounded, to its non-disappearance. ***** Nina. #83882 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Mar 9, 2008 8:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism XX, 'Knowledge of What is/is not the Path' nilovg Dear Ken H and Larry, Ken, I quote from Survey of Paramattha Dhammas by Kh Sujin about the Purifications. Here is the link: http://www.abhidhamma.org/Para12.htm (then the imperfections of insight are explained) To begin at the Purification of View, the meditator is one who > discerns the delimitation of nama and rupa by way of recognizing every > _kind_ of nama and rupa in his experience. There are various ways of > doing this "in brief" or "in detail". All this has to do with > particular > characteristics, their function, manifestation and proximate cause. > For > example, the pain of painful feeling is a particular characteristic > not > shared by any other kind of dhamma. With each recognition of a > particular dhamma a "tender" insight (glimpse) arises for the > meditator > who accomplishes this purification that this kind of dhamma is not > self, > not me or mine. Because of this a little glimmer of understanding > begins > to arise that because one instance of feeling, for example, is not > self, > therefore no instance of feeling is self. This sounds obvious only > because it is conceptual and not truly incorporated into one's actual > view. At the level of tender insight it can still be quite > significant. -------- N: The stages of tender insight are not theoretical of conceptual, but perhaps you did not mean to say this. First there is intellectual understanding of nama and rupa, and when a stage of insight arises another step has been taken: nama and rupa appear directly in a mind- door process. At that moment there is no idea of self who knows, no world. Nina. #83883 From: "Alex" Date: Sun Mar 9, 2008 9:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma vs. Yogacara Views of Consciousness truth_aerator Hi Sarah, -- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > S: We've discussed alaya before. It doesn't mean 'abode' or 'resting > place'. It means attachment, sense pleasure, adhesion. > > See: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/78622 > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/19473 >>> Thanks for the links, when I have time, I should see them. However, I suspect that we are into semantics again: > From the first of these: > > S:>B.bodhi's translation (AN 4s, 78 `Four Wonderful Things', p.109 in Anthology) reads: > > "People generally find pleasure in attachments, take delight in > attachments and enjoy attachments. > (Pali Anguttaranikaya (A II, p.131): Alayarama bhikkhave paja alayarata > alayasammudita, sa Tathagatena analaye dhamme desiyamane sussuyati sotam > odahati annacittam upattapeti. Tathagatassa bhikkhave arahato > sammasambuddhassa patubhava ayam pathamo acchariyo abbhuto dhammo > patubhavati.) > ***** > These meanings of aalaya conform with the common meaning given above, i.e `attachment,desire, craving, lust'. >>>> Is attachment, desire, craving, lust VOLITIONS? Sure they are. Is Kamma - volition/action? YES. Alaya is a "storehouse" (please don't reify) Kamma. >>>>> There is no suggestion of citta or vinnana or luminous or soul or self. >>>> I have !nowhere! stated that in this or other topic that Alaya is a self or a soul. You are twisting my words, objectifying Kammic Reserve as a Soul and procceed to to refute what I would refute myself. I checked the translation of Alaya and FIRST TWO of the translations of Alaya ARE: "Abode, Roosting place" So we are arguing here (regarding Alaya) ONLY semantics. Both of us, I hope, agree that Soul isn't found in 5 aggregates or outside of them. Lots of Metta, Alex #83884 From: "Alex" Date: Sun Mar 9, 2008 9:23 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Seeing present moment. 11 surefire things for Liberation. Jhana truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Alex (Howard & all), > > --- Alex wrote: > >....'Infinite space,' I entered & remained in the dimension > > of the infinitude of space. > > > > "As I remained there, I was beset with attention to perceptions > > dealing with forms. That was an affliction for me. Just as pain > > arises as an affliction for a healthy person, even so the attention > > to perceptions dealing with forms that beset me was an affliction for > > me. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.041.than.html > > > > Note "As I remained there [5th Jhana]". > .... > S: The Buddha realised that even the highest jhanas were temporary states> of disspassion and detachment from defilements and sense objects. He saw the unsatisfactoriness, the suffering of such impermanent states. >>>> Oh God, not again. I would never say that Jhanas are the highest Nibbana. Who do you take me for? Arupavadin or Parama-ditthadhamma- nibbana-vadin ? They are a tools of detachment which need to be let go off. Also, have you read about: vipassana-pativipassana knowledge? > > At the moments of jhana, the object is almost always a concept too, a > mental image or pa.tibhaaganimitta. At such moments, there is no > distraction, the hindrances are suppressed and the citta and cetasikas are absorbed in the object. No other object appears, so there is no sound, no visible object or other sense object appearing. >>>>> This is plainly NOT what is found in the suttas, but I am always willing to correct myself. Where in MN111 is there a mention of reflex image? Where is there mention of fixed one pointedness, access, upacara? No where! These are later, brahmin concepts. > Of course suttas (as the ones you quote from, like above) can be selected, translated and interpreted in different ways. Without some understanding> of the Abhidhamma, I think they're bound to be mis- interpreted. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======= >>>>> Misinterpreted in light of later works sure. But today we have access to entire pali canon. These reflex images are NOT part of BUDDHIST Jhana. They may be part of Arupavadins or It is possibly precisely DUE to the fact the mind isn't absorbed in the object that change, conditionality and alteration can be seen! When your mind is as if it was hit by a hammer, you don't see DO, you don't SEE the aversion to impersonal process, you don't see ANICCA- DUKKHA-ANATTA, you don't see that this absorbption (of ANY kind) is a reinforcement of self beleif (I am not this, I don't want these disturbances to arise). Because Jhanas weren't fixed absorption states, people could easily be knocked out of them, and lower factors COULD intrude. With all due respect to KS, she should teach what she knows. I tried to read her "metta" work and was close to nausea. Metta (or anapanasati) isn't purely Samatha object. Metta CAN be used, and SHOULD be used as a "Vipassana" object as well, fully capable of leading to Arahatship (or at least anagamiship) as the SUTTAS say. --------- "Then again, a monk keeps pervading the first direction2 with an awareness imbued with good will, likewise the second, likewise the third, likewise the fourth. Thus above, below, & all around, everywhere, in its entirety, he keeps pervading the all-encompassing cosmos with an awareness imbued with good will — abundant, expansive, immeasurable, without hostility, without ill will. He reflects on this and discerns, 'This awareness-release through good will is fabricated & intended. Now whatever is fabricated & intended is inconstant & subject to cessation.' Staying right there, he reaches the ending of the mental fermentations. Or, if not, then — through this very Dhamma-passion, this Dhamma-delight, and from the total wasting away of the first five Fetters — he is due to be reborn [in the Pure Abodes], there to be totally unbound, never again to return from that world. "This too, householder, is a single quality declared by the Blessed One — the one who knows, the one who sees, worthy & rightly self- awakened — where the unreleased mind of a monk who dwells there heedful, ardent, & resolute becomes released, or his unended fermentations go to their total ending, or he attains the unexcelled security from the yoke that he had not attained before. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.052.than.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an11/an11.017.than.html ------- Lots of Metta, Alex #83885 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Mar 9, 2008 11:21 am Subject: Re: Patthaana (17) dhammanusara Dear Scott, - I guess your reply (to my statement about sotapattimagga) indicates that you understand that I was talking about Stream-entry which separates worldling from Sotapanna. And that was all I cared about, not the detail of the "moment of consciousness" or 'magga citta or 'phala citta' or the whole list of cittas and their definitions in the Vism. You know I can read the Visuddhimagga myself. >T: "...The various mindsates are described in AN 10.51 : Sacitta Sutta." Scott: The sutta describes paccavekkhana ('self-examination'), and is in no way an exhaustive list of 'mind-states'. T: Of course, it is about examination of one's own mind. The mind is changing all the time, as the Buddha's "monkey simile" illustrates. In Mahasatipatthana Sutta, the section on cittanupassana is also about the "various mind states" (citte' citta) for mental development (cittaanupassana). These 16 states are as follows: 1. the mind has passion, 2. the mind is without passion, 3. the mind has aversion, 4. the mind is without aversion, 5. the mind has delusion, 6. the mind is without delusion, 7. the mind is restricted, 8. the mind is scattered, 9. the mind is enlarged, 10. the mind is not enlarged, 11. the mind is surpassed, 12. the mind is unsurpassed, 13. the mind is concentrated, 14. the mind is not concentrated, 15. the mind is released, 16. the mind is not released. Questions: What is your "exhaustive list of 'mind-states'", Venerable Scott? And, importantly, where in the whole wide Suttanta-pitaka world can you find your "exhaustive list of 'mind-states' "? With due respects, Tep === #83886 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Mar 9, 2008 11:32 am Subject: Re: Patthaana (17) scottduncan2 Dear Tep, Thanks for the reply: T: "...Questions: What is your "exhaustive list of 'mind-states'", Venerable Scott? And, importantly, where in the whole wide Suttanta-pitaka world can you find your "exhaustive list of 'mind-states' "? Scott: I'm working now on the sutta reference you so kindly offered. I appreciate the chance to study this. Would you kindly stop using the above exemplified style of interaction? Let's just discuss views. Please leave out the argumentum ad hominem. I'd appreciate it. The tone of discourse needn't be at this low level, in my opinion. Sincerely, Scott. #83887 From: "Alex" Date: Sun Mar 9, 2008 11:37 am Subject: Re: Patthaana (17) truth_aerator Dear Tep, Scott, Nina, Han and All, In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > Dear Nina (Alex, Han, Scott), - > > The Patism. says there are 16 kinds of views(ditthi) that are not right view [Patism Threatise II, 6. Katamam solasa ditthiyo?]. Do you not think that the main reason we (you, I, Alex, Han, Jon, etc.) have different views about the Dhamma (Teachings of the Buddha about the dhammas) is because of ditthi? >>> Dear Tep, the reason we have ditthis is Due to Clinging & Craving. I've recently noticed an interesting detail. Sensuality, Views, Rites & Rituals, & Self Belief ARE CLINGING! What is the cause of clinging? Craving! What is the cause of Craving? Feeling! What is feeling due to? Contact... While most links are sufficient conditions, feeling is a nessesery but not sufficient condition for Craving (and the rest of fetters which Sotapanna must break through). ------ There are these four clingings: sensuality clinging, view clinging, precept & practice clinging, and doctrine of self clinging. This is called clinging. "From the origination of craving comes the origination of clinging. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging. And the way of practice leading to the cessation of clinging is just this very noble eightfold path: right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.009.than.html ---------- Please read EVERY WORD in the above MN9 (SAMMA DITTHI) extract. Please also note SAMMA-SAMADHI part (which according to some suttas, DN33 or 34? of the top of my head) is the crown of N8P. Samadhi Maggo, asamadhi kummaggo - The Lion Roar text iii, 414, Vi, vi, 64. Look, we all have our biases. Before a person can use a lot of book knowledge (Especially Abh & Co), one must be ready (Ariya if not at Arahatship level). Just like no matter how much clean nectar you pour into a dirty cup, the nectar wouldn't be clean until you clean the dirty cup. A lot of very detailed information Bhikkhus learned was at ARAHATSHIP level and I think there is a darn good reason for that. 99.99999% of discources that Sariputta, MahaMoggallana and 100s of Arahant Bhikkhus learned were AFTER they've reached Arahatship... Many of the suttas which talk about deep things were talked about between ARAHANTS (such as Sariputta & Mahakotthita). Furthermore, if we (I included) keep attaching to the Dhamma, then it may provide a big stumbling block later on. After all, the harder we study (suttas, Abh, etc) the more valuable "it" becomes. But then it may be very hard to realize "vipassana-pativipassana" (Counter insight into insight). Sometimes packing on sutamaya panna to the expense of bhavanamaya-panna can be detrimental, especially when self view wasn't fully defeated... Look, concepts belong to Sannakhanda and THAT needs to be let go... AN book of 4s "Vi (186) Approach If a monk understands the meaning and the text of Dhamma- even if it be but a stanza of four lines-and be set on living in accordance with the dhamma, he may be called "one widely learnt, who knows Dhamma by heart.". Lots of Metta, Alex #83888 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Mar 9, 2008 11:45 am Subject: Re: Patthaana (17) dhammanusara Dear Scott, - If you follow your own philosophy of "no self, onlt cittas matter" you should not be so sensitive to my addressing you as the Venerable who always knows everything about the dhammas. > > Scott: I'm working now on the sutta reference you so kindly offered. > I appreciate the chance to study this. Would you kindly stop using > the above exemplified style of interaction? Let's just discuss views. > Please leave out the argumentum ad hominem. I'd appreciate it. The > tone of discourse needn't be at this low level, in my opinion. > I am afraid I am at the lower level than you are, Scott. Can't help it ! Tep == #83889 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Mar 9, 2008 11:54 am Subject: Re: Patthaana (17) scottduncan2 Dear Tep, I'll try again: Me: "Would you kindly stop using the above exemplified style of interaction? Let's just discuss views. Please leave out the argumentum ad hominem. I'd appreciate it. The tone of discourse needn't be at this low level, in my opinion." Scott: I'm afraid you've missed the point, Tep. Any chance of just discussing views without the rest? Sincerely, Scott. #83890 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Mar 9, 2008 12:32 pm Subject: Re: Patthaana (17) scottduncan2 Dear Tep, Regarding the last reply: T: "...I was talking about Stream-entry which separates worldling from Sotapanna. And that was all I cared about, not the detail of the 'moment of consciousness' or 'magga citta or 'phala citta' or the whole list of cittas and their definitions..." Scott: You have yet to support the view that pa~n~naa does not arise in those moments of consciousness which occur prior to the arising of the Path and Fruit. T: "...The mind is changing all the time, as the Buddha's "monkey simile" illustrates..." Scott: True. SN 61(1): "But that which is called the 'mind' or 'mentality' and 'consciousness' arises as one thing and ceases as another by day and by night. Just as a monkey roaming through the forest grabs hold of one branch, lets go and grabs another, then lets that go and grabs still another, so too that which is called 'mind' and 'mentality' and 'consciousness' arises as one thing and ceases as another by day and by night." Note 157: "Spk. By day and by night (rattiyaa ca divasassa ca): This is genitive in the locative sense, i.e., during the night and during the day. Arises as one thing and ceases as another (a~n~nadeva uppajjati, a~n~na.m nirujjhati): The meaning is that (the mind) that arises and ceases during the day is other than (the mind) that arises and ceases during the night. The statement should not be taken to mean that one thing arises and something altogether different, which had not arisen, ceases. 'Day and night' is said by way of continuity, taking continuity of lesser duration than the previous one (i.e., the one stated for the body). But one citta is not able to endure for a whole day or a whole night. Even in the time of a fingersnap many hundred thousand of ko.tis of cittas arise and cease (1 ko.ti=10 million). This simile of the monkey should be understood thus: The 'grove of objects' is like the forest grove. The mind arising in the grove of objects is like the monkey wandering in the forest grove. The mind's taking hold of an object is like the monkey grabbing hold of a branch. Just as the monkey, roaming through the forest, leaves behind one branch and grabs hold of another, so the mind, roaming through the grove of objects, arises sometimes grasping hold of a visible object, sometimes a sound, sometimes the past, sometimes the present or the future, sometimes an internal object, sometimes an external object. When the monkey does not find a (new) branch it does not descend and sit on the ground, but sits holding on to a single leafy branch. So too, when the mind is roaming through the grove of objects, it cannot be said that it arises without holding to an object; rather, it arises holding to an object of a single kind." Scott: So, we are no closer to sorting out whether or not pa~n~naa can arise for the 'worldling', but we agree that citta takes an object, and that citta is momentary. I'll consider the Mahaasatipa.t.thaana Sutta reference in another post. Thanks. Sincerely, Scott. #83891 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Mar 9, 2008 1:09 pm Subject: Re: Patthaana (17) dhammanusara Dear Alex, - I appreciate your Dhamma chat with me. >Alex: >AN book of 4s "Vi (186) Approach. If a monk understands the meaning and the text of Dhamma- even if it be but a stanza of four lines-and be set on living in accordance with the dhamma, he may be called "one widely learnt, who knows Dhamma by heart.". T: Thank you for this discussion with me. Thank you for the change in direction from the useless to the useful! Talking about the suttas is the only kind of discussion that always galddens me. Other discussions I had in this passing week were just the opposite, because they are about nothing but ditthi: I know this but you don't; my understanding is right and yours is wrong! Gladness has its support; it is not without support. "When he has given up, renounced, let go, abandoned and relinquished [the defilements] in part, he knows: 'I am endowed with unwavering confidence in the Buddha... in the Dhamma... in the Sangha; and he gains enthusiasm for the goal, gains enthusiasm for the Dhamma, gains gladness connected with the Dhamma. When he is gladdened, joy is born in him; being joyous in mind, his body becomes tranquil; his body being tranquil, he feels happiness; and the mind of him who is happy becomes concentrated. [Vatthupama Sutta] The support for gladness is NOT given by a discussion about the dhamma theory (e.g. the different kinds of cittas; moment of consciousness, etc.) in the Abhidhamma book or about reality and existence of the dhammas. ....................... >A: Dear Tep, the reason we have ditthis is Due to Clinging & Craving. T: Yes, I think so too. .................... >A: I've recently noticed an interesting detail. Sensuality, Views, Rites & Rituals, & Self Belief ARE CLINGING! What is the cause of clinging? Craving! What is the cause of Craving? Feeling! What is feeling due to? Contact... T: Yes, there are four kinds of clinging. And there are several kinds of cravings as well (e.g. see AN 4.199). Have you heard of tanha 108? >While most links are sufficient conditions, feeling is a nessesery but not sufficient condition for Craving (and the rest of fetters which Sotapanna must break through). T: But the Paticcsamuppada states that 'From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving.. from the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving'. So, if vedana is not sufficient for the arising of tanha, is the cessation of vedana sufficient for tanha to cease without remainder? .................... Thanks. Tep === #83892 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Mar 9, 2008 1:45 pm Subject: Re: Patthaana (17) dhammanusara Dear Scott, - You've tried to be calm. That is appropriate. > Scott: > Dear Tep, > > I'll try again: > > Me: "Would you kindly stop using the above exemplified style of > interaction? Let's just discuss views. Please leave out the > argumentum ad hominem. I'd appreciate it. The tone of discourse > needn't be at this low level, in my opinion." > > Scott: I'm afraid you've missed the point, Tep. Any chance of just > discussing views without the rest? > T: Admittedly, I'm afraid that the chance is lower than 100%, Scott. Why? Because people who are worldlings like me (and you) can only behave appropriately sometimes, not all the time. Those who pretend to be Mr. or Mrs. Dhamma Perfect have failed and we have seen that. >Scott: You have yet to support the view that pa~n~naa does not arise in those moments of consciousness which occur prior to the arising of the Path and Fruit. T: There are three simple supports to that truth : "pa~n~naa does not arise in those moments of consciousness which occur prior to the arising of the Path and Fruit". 1. Becuase pa~n~naa, according to Dhammasangani and the Patismbhidamagga, includes right view in the domain of the ariya puggalas. 2. I know it myself that I have not had right view or faculty of wisdom. 3. If pa~n~naa in the right view (yathabhuta~nana dassana) ever arises in a worldling, after that wrong views (about eternity, the worlds, etc. as explained in DN 15, MN 2 and MN 117) and attanuditthi (20 identification views of seeing atta in the five khandhas) will cease without remainder. There is no falling back. Thanks for the asking. Tep === #83893 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Mar 9, 2008 2:13 pm Subject: Re: Patthaana (17) scottduncan2 Dear Tep, Here's some further consideration of the last post; Paa.li added: T: "...1. the mind has passion, 2. the mind is without passion, 3. the mind has aversion, 4. the mind is without aversion, 5. the mind has delusion, 6. the mind is without delusion, 7. the mind is restricted, 8. the mind is scattered, 9. the mind is enlarged, 10. the mind is not enlarged, 11. the mind is surpassed, 12. the mind is unsurpassed, 13. the mind is concentrated, 14. the mind is not concentrated, 15. the mind is released, 16. the mind is not released." Scott: Again, the above is not an exhaustive list of 'mind-states': 1/2: Saraaga.m/viitaraaga.m [raaga] 3/4: Sadosa.m/viitadosa.m [dosa] 5/6: Samoha.m/viitamoha.m [moha] 7/8: Sa'nkhitta.m/Vikkhitta.m [Note 662 (Walshe): "Sa"nkhitta.m citta.m (from the verb sankhipati: cf. sankhitte-na 'in brief') a mind that is 'contracted' or 'shrunken' by sloth-and-torpor (verse 13) and the like."] [Thiina-cetasika, middha-cetasika] [[Note 663: Vikhitta.m citta.m: a mind distracted by worry-and-flurry (verse 13).] [vicikicchaa-cetasika (?)] 9/10: Mahaggatta.m/Amahaggatta.m [Note 664: Mahaaggata.m: 'grown great' through the lower or higher jhaanas. Note 665: 'Not grown great', not developed by the jhaanas.] 11/12:Sauttara.m/Anuttara.m [Note 666: S-uttara.m: 'having (other mental states) surpassing it', is synonymous with 'undeveloped mind'. Note 667: An-uttara.m: 'having no other states surpassing it', might seem to refer to transcendental consciousness, but is referred by DA to mundane states, therefore in effect synonymous with the 'developed' mind...] 13/14:Samaahita.m/Asamaahita.m [Note 668: Samaahita.m: having attained samaadhi, i.e. jhaanic absorption. Note 669: Not having attained such absorption...][cittass'ekagatta] 15/16:Vimutta.m/Avimutta.m [Note 670: Vimutta.m. This is stated by DA to mean the mind that is temporarily 'freed' either by insight or by jhaana, which supresses the defilements. Neither is, of course, true and permanent liberation...in other words, we are here dealing purely with the mundane world of the beginner in meditation.] Scott: Please note the above, in Note 670. 'Mundane' insight refers to the work of pa~n~naa at the level of non-ariyans. T: "Questions: What is your 'exhaustive list of 'mind-states'', ...where in the whole wide Suttanta-pitaka world can you find your 'exhaustive list of 'mind-states'?" Scott: Without restricting one's self to the suttas only, and, as we've been considering together, what about Dhammasa"nga.ni? Sincerely, Scott. #83894 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Mar 9, 2008 2:20 pm Subject: Re: Patthaana (17) scottduncan2 Dear Tep, Thanks for the reply: T: "There are three simple supports to that truth : 'pa~n~naa does not arise in those moments of consciousness which occur prior to the arising of the Path and Fruit'. 1. Becuase pa~n~naa, according to Dhammasangani and the Patismbhidamagga, includes right view in the domain of the ariya puggalas..." Scott: 'Includes' but can you show 'not limited to'? T: "...2. I know it myself that I have not had right view or faculty of wisdom..." Scott: Never? Not in the least? The view that pa~n~naa is equal to the arising of the path limits the ability to know the dhammas that arises from moment to moment now. T: "...3. If pa~n~naa in the right view (yathabhuta~nana dassana) ever arises in a worldling, after that wrong views (about eternity, the worlds, etc. as explained in DN 15, MN 2 and MN 117) and attanuditthi (20 identification views of seeing atta in the five khandhas) will cease without remainder..." Scott: Again, you equate the arising of pa~n~naa with the arising of the Path. This is not supported. Can you please show where this is stated in the texts? There is ample evidence put forward on DSG to counter the view presented in number 3. Sincerely, Scott. #83895 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Mar 9, 2008 4:43 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism XX, 'Knowledge of What is/is not the Path' lbidd2 Hi Nina, Nina: "The stages of tender insight are not theoretical of conceptual, but perhaps you did not mean to say this." Larry: I did mean to say that, but I believe I also emphasized that this conceptual understanding was at the level of insight. What I neglected to say was that this was only "tender insight". Just a glimpse. Not-self is a concept so it must be conceptual understanding. The same goes for any condition. But most conceptual understanding is not insight. Insight has an impact. POW! Larry #83896 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Mar 9, 2008 4:51 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Vism XX, 'Knowledge of What is/is not the Path' kenhowardau Hi Nina and Larry, ------ N: > Thank you for your work. ------ It's kind of you to put it that way, Nina, but on this occasion my only "work" has been to type out the paragraphs. I am aware that they are available pre-typed, but it is good exercise for me to reproduce them slowly in my hunt-and-peck style. This way, I notice points that I might otherwise have missed. --------------- <. . .> N: It is the translation of yogavacara. This word we also find frequently in the Co. to the Satipatthaanasutta. Quote: ---------------- Thanks for the interesting quote, Nina. I was mainly concerned with the way the text seemed to be following the progress of a particular meditator. I know this is not to be taken literally in a "first do this then do that" way, and I seem to remember a discussion about this with Larry. Searching for it I only found where you have written: "When we read the text it seems: nama first then rupa or rupa first then nama, but this is mainly for teaching purposes. Nobody can control what object sati takes."(end quote) So that may be all that has been said on the subject, I don't know. Paragraph 5 starts with, "So, of these three kinds of full- understanding only full-understanding as the known has been attained by this meditator." Which meditator would that be? Is it a meditator who has done all the things mentioned up to this point in The Purification of View but who hasn't yet gone on tho the next paragraphs (as it were)? Larry has posted a reply that, I think, will provide the information I am looking for. (I'll need to read it a few more times.) Thanks, Larry, I am slowly getting the picture. My main problem is that I did not pay close enough attention to earlier parts of this thread (which goes way back to a message from Htoo). Now I am paying the price. Ken H PS: I now notice that Nina has posted another message. At first reading I think it will tie up the loose ends very nicely. But it is another post that I will need to read a few more times. Thank you both for your trouble. KH #83897 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Mar 9, 2008 5:53 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma vs. Yogacara Views of Consciousness buddhatrue Hi Sarah, Sorry it has taken me a while to respond but my laptop is broken. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > With regard to the 'orderliness' or 'intervention of materiality', think > of a queue at a bank. The customers follow each other one after the other > in a particular order. If the bank suddenly closes for lunch, but the > customers remain in the queue, the temporary closure makes no difference > to the fact that it is the next customer's turn because the previous > customer has been served. > > (Ignore all that if it doesn't work for you or if there are never bank > queues in Taiwan....:-)) James: Thank you for the analogy. I like analogies. However, I am not sure if this one works or not. I think of "proximity condition" as the same thing as momentum. It is the force, or momentum, of one citta which conditions the next citta, etc. But when the momentum is broken, there must be something else to start it up again. When the bank closes, the people have lost their momentum of standing in line and they go home! ;-)) I am not sure what starts up this momentum again, but there must be some level of consciousness which continues after the cittas stop. There just has to be something there holding it all together and keeping the momentum going. > .... > >>>Additionally, there cannot be > > a break in those cittas because a break would equal cessation, > > nibbana without remainder. > ... > S: No there isn't a 'break in those cittas', just as there isn't a break > in the bank queue example. James: If the cittas stop arising, there is a break in them. They stopped. The bank is closed. > .... > > > >.... Here the proximity force is not destroyed > > although > > > materiality lasting for 500 worlds intervenes." > > > > James: Ooohhh...that's a nifty trick! But, what about reality? > .... > S: The reality is citta now. Seeing now, followed by other sense- door > cittas, bhavanga cittas, mind-door cittas, bhavanga cittas.....on and on > and on, lifetime after lifetime. Even if no cittas arise for 500 worlds or > whatever, sooner or later by proximity condition, they will proceed as > usual. This is why even the highest jhanas are no escape from samsara. James: There must be something else which starts the cittas again. Things don't condition themselves; they must be conditioned by something else. This is what the Buddha taught about "this/that" conditionality. Metta, James #83898 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Mar 9, 2008 6:06 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : internal & external realities buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi James, > Op 7-mrt-2008, om 1:52 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > > > I say that a person isn't citta, > > cetasika, and rupa anymore than a tornado is air and water. A > > person is a process and citta, cetasika, and rupa is just a > > simplification of that process through analysis. > ------- > N: What do you mean by process? Different people use this word in > different ways. > Nina. I just mean the standard definition of process (from dictionary.com): "a continuous action, operation, or series of changes taking place in a definite manner: the process of decay." Metta, James #83899 From: "Alex" Date: Sun Mar 9, 2008 7:00 pm Subject: Re: Patthaana (17) truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > T: Yes, there are four kinds of clinging. And there are several kinds of > cravings as well (e.g. see AN 4.199). Have you heard of tanha 108? >>>> I've read it some time ago (I've read all 4 Nikayas + few books of KN). I've just looked over briefly that sutta. The bottom line is: "In no way think I XXXXX". > >While most links are sufficient conditions, feeling is a nessesery > but not sufficient condition for Craving (and the rest of fetters > which Sotapanna must break through). > > T: But the Paticcsamuppada states that 'From feeling as a requisite > condition comes craving.. from the cessation of feeling comes the > cessation of craving'. So, if vedana is not sufficient for the arising of tanha, is the cessation of vedana sufficient for tanha to cease without remainder? > .................... One needs to walk Noble 8 fold path to stop Vedana from generating Tanha. At first of course, one will only reduce it (ie: from very bad to bad, from bad to neutral, from neutral to good, and from good to ending of cycle). Eventually (at arahatship) on totally cuts it off. Remember that the DO factors DO not only occur in that set order. It isn't stricly a temporal sequence. They are many sub loops present. Lots of Metta, Alex #83900 From: "Alex" Date: Sun Mar 9, 2008 7:20 pm Subject: Re: Patthaana (17) truth_aerator Dear Scott, In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > Scott: Without restricting one's self to the suttas only, and, as > we've been considering together, what about Dhammasa"nga.ni? > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > Remember DN#16, Dhamma-Vinaya takes precedence. I am not saying that Dhammasangani is wrong, it may be right. But if something IMPORTANT isn't mentioned in the suttas then we can rightfully question the usefulness (of Dhs) at our current stage. Lots of Metta, Alex #83901 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Mar 9, 2008 7:56 pm Subject: Re: Patthaana (17) scottduncan2 Dear Alex, Thanks for the contribution: A: "Remember DN#16, Dhamma-Vinaya takes precedence. I am not saying that Dhammasangani is wrong, it may be right. But if something IMPORTANT isn't mentioned in the suttas then we can rightfully question the usefulness (of Dhs) at our current stage." Scott: I'm not sure why you reference 'Dhamma-Vinaya' here. As I showed in responding to Tep, the various dhammas which are mentioned in the suttas are set out and elucidated in Dhammasa"nga.ni. This is where a more 'exhaustive' list occurs. Check the paa.li I gave for yourself. These all are from the sutta given by Tep. Check Dhammasa"nga.ni and you can read about each one of these dhammas. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/83893 Scott: You seem to forget that I happen to take the Abhidhamma Pi.taka as canonical, therefore I simply don't question its 'rightness'. I interact on this forum because the Ti-pi.taka and its Commentaries are the Dhamma I wish to consider. I in no way harbour a 'sutta-only' bias. Sincerely, Scott. #83902 From: han tun Date: Sun Mar 9, 2008 8:43 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Patthaana (19) hantun1 Dear Nina, I am waiting for your comments on Patthaana (19). Thank you very much in advance. Respectfully, Han #83903 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Mar 9, 2008 9:23 pm Subject: Re: Patthaana (17) dhammanusara Dear Scott (and to all who don't mind a long-but-good post), - This is my long reply to your short question about the first of the three supports why pa~n~naa or pa~n~nindriya cannot be found in non- ariyans. I don't want to write a thesis, though. >T: "There are three simple supports to that truth : 'pa~n~naa does not arise in those moments of consciousness which occur prior to the arising of the Path and Fruit'. 1. Becuase pa~n~naa, according to Dhammasangani and the Patismbhidamagga, includes right view in the domain of the ariya puggalas..." Scott: 'Includes' but can you show 'not limited to'? ...................... T: It is easy to ask, not easy to show and convince. But I'll try, nevertheless. The following is my reasoning that right view (sammaditthi) and other qualities relating to 'pa~n~naa' of the ariya puggalas are path qualities; hence they are above the worldings. Although this sassana of the Gotama Buddha is not limited to ariyans, these path qualities that pertain to the ones who truly see and know the truths through penetration, are. Unfortunately, the English word wisdom or understanding is not powerful enough to describe ~nanaa of the ariya puggala. First of all, let's take a second look at Dhammasangani's definition for pa~n~naa that you posted earlier: "What on that occasion is the faculty of insight (pa~n~nindriya.m)? The insight which there is on that occasion is understanding, search, research, searching the Doctrine, discernment, discrimination, differentiation, erudition, proficiency, subtlety, criticism, reflection, analysis, breadth, sagacity, a 'guide', intuition, a 'goad', wisdom as faculty, wisdom as power, wisdom as a sword, wisdom as a height, wisdom as light, wisdom as glory, wisdom as splendour, wisdom as a precious stone; the absence of dullness, searching the Truth, right views - this is the wisdom that there then is." T: Notice that 'wisdom as faculty' is 'pa~n~nindriya', 'wisdom as power' is 'pa~n~naa bala', and right view is 'sammaditthi', which you know, is a magga factor. It is so obvious that pa~n~naa bala and sammaditthi are the Path qualities that you don't see in puthujjana. For example, pa~n~naa bala is defined in Patism XIX, 7 : What is the understanding power? It is not shaken by ignorance, thus it is the understanding power. .. It is the understanding power in the sense of terminating defilements ... It is the understanding power in the sense of establishing in cessation.". [ Can a worldling have the pa~n~naa bala that terminate defilements, Scott?] T: Also in Patism, 'pa~n~naa' is one of the aspects that define Knowledge of Suffering(dukkha~naana). In the paragraph below please notice that pa~n~naa is rendered as "understanding" by Ven. ~Nanamoli Bhikkhu (who was the translator of Patism). "Herein, what is knowledge of suffering? [Tattha katamam dukkhe ~naanam?] "Any understanding [that arises contingent upon suffering] (dukkham aarabbha yaa uppajjati): act-of-understanding (pa~n~naa pajaananaa), investigation (vicayo), reinvestigation (pavicayo), investigation-of-ideas (dhammavicayo), noting (sallakkhanaa), noticing (upalakkhanaa), taking notice(paccupalakkhanaa), learning (panticcam), skill (kosallam), cleverness (nepu~n~nam), estimation(vebhavyaa), ratiocination (cintaa), scrutiny (upaparikkhaa), over-all-ness (-----), good- sense(bhuurimedhaa), piloting (parinaayikaa), insight (vipassanaa), full- awareness (sampaja~n~nam), spur(patodo), understanding (pa~n~naa), understanding as faculty (pa~n~nindriyam), understanding as power(pa~n~naa balam), understanding as weapon (pa~n~naa sattham), understanding as stronghold (pa~n~naa paasaado), understanding as light (pa~n~naa aaloko), understanding as illumination (pa~n~naa obhaaso), understanding as lighting up (pa~n~naa pajjoto), understanding as treasure (pa~n~naa ratanam), non-delusion (amoho), investigation of ideas (dhammavicayo), right view (sammaaditthi),: this is called knowledge of suffering (Idam vuccati dukkhe ~naanam.) [Patisambhidamagga, Treatise I (on Knowledge), 568 (page 121 of the hard-bound edition) The above Pali inserts were given by Han Tun.] [Is dukkha~naana not limited to worldlings, Scott?] T: So, it is obvious, very obvious, that those many terms that describe dukkha~naana appear in the definition of pa~n~naa in Dhammasangani too. What do you think that tells you, Scott? Sincerely, Tep === #83904 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Mar 10, 2008 2:29 am Subject: Visuddhimagga, Ch XVII, 244, 245 and Tiika. nilovg Visuddhimagga, Ch XVII, 244, 245. Intro: The following sections deal with the order of arising, of abandoning and of teaching with regard to the four kinds of clinging. In section 244 it is said that usually in a life the clinging to self arises first and then eternity belief or annihilation belief. After that sensuous clinging. In section 245 it is said that as to the order of abandoning, clinging to wrong view is abandoned first and after that the other kinds of clinging. --------- Text Vis. 244:. 'As to order': here order is threefold (see Ch. XIV, 211), that is to say, order of arising, order of abandoning, and order of teaching. Herein, order of arising of defilements is not meant literally because there is no first arising of defilements in the beginningless round of rebirths. But in a relative sense it is this: usually in a single becoming the misinterpretation of (insistence on) eternity and annihilation are preceded by the assumption of a self. ------- N: The Tiika states as to the word ‘usually’ (yebhuyyena), that sometimes the eternity belief or annihilation belief arises first, and after that the view that ‘self exists’. The Tiika states that the grasping to the idea of self should be seen as taking the five khandhas as object. As we have seen, personality belief takes the five khandhas for self in four different ways. The term ‘usually” in the Vis. text refers to the fact that the clinging to the belief in self usually arises first. The Tiika states that although the first javanacittas in a lifespan are accompanied by attachment to life (bhava raga), this attachment is not strong grasping, since it has arisen shortly after the rebirth- consciousness, and thus sensuous clinging, kaamupaadaana, is not said to arise first. As we have seen, clinging, upaadaana, is craving that has become strong. -------- Text Vis.: After that, when a man assumes that this self is eternal, rite-and-ritual clinging arises in him for the purpose of purifying the self. And when a man assumes that it breaks up, thus disregarding the next world, sense-desire clinging arises in him. So self-doctrine clinging arises first, and after that, [false-] view clinging, and rite-and-ritual clinging or sense-desire clinging. This, then, is their order of arising in one becoming. ---------- Text Vis. 245: And here [false-] view clinging, etc., are abandoned first because they are eliminated by the path of stream-entry. Sense- desire clinging is abandoned later because it is eliminated by the path of Arahantship. This is the order of their abandoning. ------- N: The non-returner has eradicated clinging to sense desire but not yet clinging to life. This is deeply rooted and very tenacious. This kind of craving that is strong grasping is only eradicated by the arahat. ------- Conclusion: the order of arising can remind us of the danger of wrong view that can lead to evil deeds. A person may believe that there is no danger in sense pleasures and, being enslaved to them, he may indulge in many kinds of evil deeds. When he rejects kamma and vipaaka he may indulge in sense pleasures. Because of ignorance he is blinded and he does not see the disadvantages and dangers of them. We read in the “Middle Length Sayings” no 45, “Lesser Discourse on the Ways of Undertaking Dhamma” that the Buddha explains about the undertaking of Dhamma that is happiness in the present but results in suffering in the future: The Buddha explains that they will have an unhappy rebirth. Someone who with a perverted mind indulges in sense pleasures rejects other worlds, that is, an unhappy rebirth in a next life as the result of his misbehaviour. As we read in Vis.63 : --------- Nina. #83905 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Mar 10, 2008 2:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Patthaana (19) nilovg D ear Han, Yes, it is in the making, I am thinking. But first the Vis. project Larry is waiting for! Thanks for your patience :-)) Nina. Op 10-mrt-2008, om 4:43 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > I am waiting for your comments on Patthaana (19). > Thank you very much in advance. #83906 From: han tun Date: Mon Mar 10, 2008 3:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Patthaana (19) hantun1 Dear Nina, I am sorry. Please do not hurry. Please take your own time. Respectfully, Han #83907 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Mar 9, 2008 11:31 pm Subject: Non-Conceptual Insight (Re: [dsg] Re: Vism XX, 'Knowledge of What is/is not ...) upasaka_howard Hi, Larry (and Nina) - In a message dated 3/9/2008 7:44:04 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@... writes: Hi Nina, Nina: "The stages of tender insight are not theoretical of conceptual, but perhaps you did not mean to say this." Larry: I did mean to say that, but I believe I also emphasized that this conceptual understanding was at the level of insight. What I neglected to say was that this was only "tender insight". Just a glimpse. Not-self is a concept so it must be conceptual understanding. The same goes for any condition. But most conceptual understanding is not insight. Insight has an impact. POW! Larry ================================= Larry, while I certainly agree that there can be conceptual understanding and strong conceptual belief in not-self, I am also certain that there can be direct, non-conceptual knowing of not-self in all its aspects. Should a person see directly at the most "microscopic" level of experience how a condition that is not present appears "out of the blue" when its requisites have appeared, and likewise see the amazing, near-magical vanishing of conditions at that fine level of experience, wordlessly one would be disabused of the idea of the reality of self in conditions, and should one, for any period of time, utterly lose all sense of personal self, and, despite looking and looking, be unable to restore that sense, then, again wordlessly and non-conceptually, one would truly know that "self" is illusion. With metta, Howard #83908 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Mar 9, 2008 10:09 am Subject: Crucial Concern! bhikkhu0 Friends: The Dhamma Makes the Mental Hindrances Vanish: The Blessed Buddha once said: When, Bhikkhus, a Noble Disciple listens carefully to the Dhamma, alert with keen ears, attending to it as a matter of crucial concern, as something of vital importance, directing his entire mind to it, in that very moment, the Five Mental Hindrances are absent in him... On that occasion the Seven Links to Awakening develop towards complete fulfilment... And what are the Five Mental Hindrances, that are absent on that occasion? The mental hindrance of Sense-Desire is all absent on that very occasion. The mental hindrance of Evil-Will is all absent in these exact moments. The mental hindrance of Lethargy & Laziness is all absent during that period. The mental hindrance of Restlessness & Regret is all absent on that event. The mental hindrance of Doubt & Uncertainty is all absent in that interval. These are the Five Mental Hindrances that all are completely absent on that occasion. And what are the Seven Links to Awakening that approaches fulfilment right there? The Awareness Link to Awakening develops towards fulfilment on that very occasion! The Investigation Link to Awakening arises & approaches fulfilment on that occasion! The Energy Link to Awakening also pushes forward towards fulfilment on that occasion! The Joy Link to Awakening moves towards complete fulfilment on that unique occasion! The Tranquillity Link to Awakening comes close to a stilled fulfilment on that occasion! The Concentration Link to Awakening reaches unification fulfilment on that occasion! The Equanimity Link to Awakening also gains fulfilment by development on that occasion! These are the 7 Links to Awakening that are fulfilled by development on that occasion. When, Bhikkhus, a Noble Disciple listens carefully to the Dhamma, alert with keen ears, attending to it as a matter of crucial concern, as something of vital importance, directing his entire mind to it, in that very moment the Five Mental Hindrances are absent in him. On that occasion the Seven Links to Awakening develop towards complete fulfilment... Source (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book [V: 95-6] section 46: The Links. 38: Unhindered... Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest * Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka :-) .... #83909 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Mar 9, 2008 11:53 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma vs. Yogacara Views of Consciousness upasaka_howard Hi, James (and Sarah) - James: There must be something else which starts the cittas again. Things don't condition themselves; they must be conditioned by something else. This is what the Buddha taught about "this/that" conditionality. Metta, James =================================== James, I am satisfied with "conditionality at a distance," not seeing the need for direct (i.e., contiguous)contact in conditionality, and I think that quantum mechanics can serve to motivate that perspective. But aside from my view on that, it occurs to me that there is another way to account for "conditionality across gaps in consciousness" that might be an idea you find plausible, namely that the consciousness gap exists relative to *other* mind streams but not relative to the mind stream that supposedly has the gap. Relative to that experiential stream, there is just the experience of a sudden change in experiential content. An analogy: I'm in a small operating room in the corner of a hospital Endoscopy Unit, hooked up to an I. V., ready to have a gastroscopy (upper endoscopy) performed. At one point, I start to experience a delightful calm enveloping mind and body, then my level of awareness begins sinking, and suddenly, the very next instant, someone is saying "Mr. Wasserman, you're all done! :-)", and, upon opening my eyes, I'm in a cubicle in the main section of the unit. For "me", an instant of time passed, while for others, 15 minutes and multitudes of mind states passed. With metta, Howard #83910 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Mar 10, 2008 5:31 am Subject: Re: Patthaana (17) scottduncan2 Dear Tep, Thanks for the reply: T: "[ Can a worldling have the pa~n~naa bala that terminate defilements...?] Scott: No, but there is pa~n~naa which is not at the level of the Path. T: "[Is dukkha~naana not limited to worldlings...?]" Scott: Since the text refers to 'Any understanding...contingent on suffering' then this would include understanding of a level of development below that of the ariyan. The answer, then, is that pa~n~naa arises for worldlings and ariyans and that it differs in 'strength' according to development. The worldling, with undeveloped pa~n~naa cannot 'know' that which is known by the ariyan, with highly developed pa~n~naa. T: "So, it is obvious, very obvious, that those many terms that describe dukkha~naana appear in the definition of pa~n~naa in Dhammasangani too. What do you think that tells you...?" Scott: That both sources refer to pa~n~naa of differing degrees of development. These have not supported the view that no pa~n~naa arises for the worldling. Both show a range of pa~n~naa and suggest a range of that which is known to pa~n~naa. Sincerely, Scott. #83911 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Mar 10, 2008 7:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Patthaana (19) nilovg Dear Han, Op 9-mrt-2008, om 9:24 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > From this verse, it appears that ruupaayatana (matter) > conditions cakkhuvi~n~naa.na (mind), i.e. only Matter > for Mind. But from the Groupings, the Object condition > belongs to Group E. Mind-and-Matter for Mind. However, > the first Pali verse up to the sixth Pali verse of > Object condition (that I had written in my last post), > denote only Matter for Mind. So to me there is a > discrepancy and the verses do not adequately portray > the complete picture of the Object condition. ------- N: I looked up P. 18, and found: (8) Yam yam dhammam aarabbha ye ye dhammaa uppajjanti cittacetasikaa dhammaa te te dhammaa tesam tesam dhammaanam aaramma.napaccayena paccayo. Taking any states as object, these states, consciousness and mental factors, arise; those (former) states are related to those (latter) states by object condition. So I could not find anything missing, here is naama as object. -------- > H: To understand the complete picture of the Object > condition I refer to MN 148 Chachakka Sutta: The Six > Sets of Six (translation by Bhikkhu Nanamoli and > Bhikkhu Bodhi). > > The Buddha said: “Bhikkhus, dependent on the eye > (cakkhu) and forms (ruupa), eye-consciousness > (cakkhu-vi~n~naana) arises; the meeting of the three > is contact (phassa); ... > > According to this sutta, eye (matter) + forms (matter) > + eye-consciousness (mind) are the three conditioning > states, and contact, feelings, underlying tendencies > (all mind) are the conditioned states. Thus this > formula portrays the complete picture of the Object > condition, i.e., Mind-and-Matter for Mind. ------ N: This sutta deals with the dependent origination. I do not see this as specifically object condition by way of the group Mind-and-Matter for Mind. Only one object at a time is experienced by citta and accompanying cetasikas. Thus, when mind+matter are taken together, it may be confusing to the reader. Moreover, where is the concept that can also be object-condition? And nibbaana? -------- > > H: On page 308 of A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma, > the conditioning states of Object condition are 89 > cittas, 52 cetasikas, 28 material, Nibbaana, and > concepts. I do not intend to go that far, but if I can > show that the conditioning states of Object condition > is not just the Matter as the Pali verses imply, but > it consists of not only the matter but also the mind > as well, I will be satisfied. ---------- N: See above, vs 8. CMA is very clear. There isn'y anything that cannot be object-condition for citta. Nina. #83912 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Mar 10, 2008 7:10 am Subject: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 4, no 4. nilovg Dear friends, In this life we still have the opportunity to hear the Dhamma, to learn about realities. This sutta reminds us to study the Dhamma with the greatest care and respect and to verify what we learn in our life. Only a Buddha can teach about what is true in the ultimate sense: citta, cetasika, rúpa and nibbåna. We see people, trees, houses and many different things. Do we know what dhamma, reality, is? Seeing is dhamma, visible object is dhamma, thinking is dhamma. We have to practise the Dhamma in order to reach the goal. We have to apply what we learn by being mindful and by developing understanding of nåma and rúpa. It seems that we see a person who is lasting, who stays alive, at least for some time, whereas in reality it is only visible object that is present for a moment and then no more. When we close our eyes, the world and all the people in it do not appear. Our thinking of the world is conditioned by the seeing of visible object. We should remember the momentary death of each dhamma that appears, but we are blinded by ignorance. What we call death at the end of our lifespan is the falling away of the last citta in that life and the breaking up of the body. The length of our life is conditioned by kamma, and nobody can cause his life to last forever. This can help us to accept the death of persons who are near and dear to us. Through the development of vipassanå one comes to understand that in the ultimate sense there is death at each moment: at each moment nåma and rúpa are arising and then falling away completely. Each citta lasts only for one moment, one moment of experiencing an object through one of the six doors. It takes very long, even many lives, to realize this. Dhamma is not a medicine one can quickly apply so that it helps immediately. But we can at least begin now. That is the application of the Dhamma: right understanding of what appears. Many moments in a day we are forgetful of nåma and rúpa, we are absorbed in thinking of concepts, such as people and events. But when we have listened to the Dhamma there may be conditions for a moment of awareness and understanding of one reality at a time that appears. Sati is a sobhana (beautiful) cetasika that arises only with sobhana citta. Sati is non-forgetful, heedful, of what is wholesome. There are different levels of sati: sati of dåna is non-forgetful of generosity, sati of síla is non-forgetful of abstaining from evil, sati of samatha is mindful of the meditation subject. Sati of the level of insight is mindful of a paramattha dhamma so that understanding of it can be developed. Its object is the citta, cetasika or rúpa that appears at the present moment. The aim of the development of insight is knowing dhammas as they truly are, as impermanent, dukkha and anattå. ****** Nina. #83913 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Mar 10, 2008 8:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Understanding. was Patthaana (17) nilovg Dear Tep, Op 9-mrt-2008, om 16:03 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > N: Also intellectual understanding is > pa~n~naa, there are many degrees of understanding. > > T: But that is not what the Dhammasangani says. > > >N: You may read in a text about the highest pa~n~naa, but we have to > consider the context. > > T: When a "context" is considered, there is a view of the person > [Or if > you don't like to say "person", you may say 'citta associated with > ditthi'.] > that does the interpretation of what is context and what is not. ------- N: Perhaps I did not make myself clear. We can say: context or a particular classification and this is not subjective. For example: pariyatti, this is intellectual understanding. Patipatti is direct understanding that has to be developed, and pa.tivedha is the penetration of the truth. This is one way of classifying different stages of pa~n~naa. In the Visuddhimagga Ch XIV,8 we find many classifications of pa~n~na: such as the first stage of tender insight: delimiting mind and matter, and also: consisting in what is reasoned (cinta maya ~naa.na), consisting in what is heard (sutta maya ~naa.na), and consisting in development, bhaavanaa. These you find also in the Patisambhidhamagga. I quote from Vis.: 32. (v) How is it [understanding] developed? Now the things classed as aggregates, bases, elements, faculties, truths, dependent origination, etc., are the "soil" of this understanding, and the [first] two purifications, namely, purification of virtue and purification of consciousness, are its "roots", while the five purifications, namely, purification of view, purification by overcoming doubt, purification by knowledge and vision of what is the path and what is not the path, purification by knowledge and vision of the way, and purification by knowledge and vision, are the "trunk". Consequently, one who is perfecting these should first fortify his knowledge by learning and questioning about these things that are the 'soil' after he has perfected the two purifications that are the 'roots', then he can develop the five purifications that are the 'trunk'. This is in brief. The detail is as follows. ------ We should first learn and question and at that level there is intellectual understanding, but still understanding. It is developing! Also the Bodhisatta had to begin developing pa~n`naa during many lives. The Commentary to the “Conduct of Yudañjaya” explains about the beginning of paññå in that life of the Bodhisatta. We read: > > Quote>N: When you consider the reality now, such as visible object, > that > which appears through eyesense only and you understand that this is > seen, that not a person is seen, there is already a degree of > pa~n~naa developing. > > T: No. That is already pa~n~naa of an ariyan; a right view !! > > "Insofar as it is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a > self: Thus it > is said, Ananda, that the world is empty.... ------ N: I refer to a beginning of understanding, just as the Bodhisatta also had to begin. When there are no buds there will not be flowers later on. Nina. #83914 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Mar 10, 2008 8:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism XX, 'Knowledge of What is/is not the Path' nilovg Hi Larry, Op 10-mrt-2008, om 0:43 heeft LBIDD@... het volgende geschreven: > Nina: "The stages of tender insight are not theoretical of conceptual, > but perhaps you did not mean to say this." > > Larry: I did mean to say that, but I believe I also emphasized that > this > conceptual understanding was at the level of insight. What I neglected > to say was that this was only "tender insight". Just a glimpse. Not- > self > is a concept so it must be conceptual understanding. The same goes for > any condition. But most conceptual understanding is not insight. > Insight > has an impact. POW! -------- N: The direct understanding of nama and rupa as non-self is not conceptual understanding. I quote from Survey to Paramattha Dhammas: