#85000 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Apr 24, 2008 5:02 am Subject: [dsg] Guardians of the world - shame and moral dread (was Re: At the Foundation) scottduncan2 Dear Larry, Thanks for the reply (sorry for the delay in responding): "Their proximate cause is respect for self and respect for others, respectively. These two states are called by the Buddha the guardians of the world because they protect the world from falling into widespread immorality." L: "Maybe they are the guardians of the world because they can arise even without insight. If awareness of present realities was necessary, I don't think the world could participate. A sense of morality is common to all even though we don't always live according to the best principles." Scott: It seems that these two arise with kusala and so are available to all in this sphere in some sense. It seems that these imbue the moment with a certain hedge against akusala and, by their presence, colour that moment with the a sense of turning away from akusala. How do you see the relationship between hiri and ottapa as constituents of a moment of kusala consciousness and the thoughts one might have conditioned by such a moment? Sincerely, Scott. #85001 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Apr 24, 2008 5:29 am Subject: Guardians of the world - shame and moral dread (was Re: At the Foundation) scottduncan2 Dear Phil, Thanks for the reply: Ph: "...The importance of people (concepts) as object of hiri and otappa. And if the object of hiri and otappa is 'people', the subject must be people too I mean if there is concern about respect for the other, there must be a self at work, it seems...for stories about people to be at work, there must be a person telling the stories, a self creating the narratives, spinning the concepts. I just have trouble seeing hiri and otappa in paramattha terms." Scott: Even in conventional psychoanalytic theory, self is not considered to be an actual entity. That there is 'a self at work' can not be asserted from the circular reasoning that the stories about 'people' prove the existence of people. I've read stories about hobbits, for example... Ph: "Well, it's not shame and guilt, it's shame and moral dread..." Scott: Dhammasa"nga.ni (pp. 18-19): "[30] What on that occasion, is the power of conscientiousness (hiribala.m)? The feeling of conscientious scruple which there is no that occasion when scruples ought to be felt, conscientious scruple at attaining to bad and evil states... "[31] What on that occasion is the power of the fear of blame (ottappabala.m)? The sense of guilt which there is on that occasion, where a sense of guilt ought to be felt, a sense of guilt at attaining to bad and evil states..." P: "I'm sure you know the simile that is used to get them across. One end of the stick being smeared with excrement (thus the shame) the other being red hot. (the moral dread) Again, very conventional feeling imagery at work here." Scott: A simile is to be taken in an abstract, not a concrete way. Similes are not to be taken literally, which I think you do. Ph: "Yes, I think you're right. Everything happens so quickly. But again, the imagery used in Vism. (see above) How can there not be dosa when sh*t and burning flesh is involved!" Scott: The simile is used to show the characteristics and function of hiri and ottappa, not dosa. And hiri and ottappa arise with kusala citta, which dosa does not. I think you mix up the reaction to the simile (dosa) with its intended meaning (to describe hiri and ottappa). This is the problem with a concrete take on conventional discourse. P: "...So this dosa must in some way be helpful if hiri and otappa are to be understood as taught in Vism." Scott: I don't think it helps to mix dosa with hiri and ottappa, as I think you do here. Sincerely, Scott. #85002 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Apr 24, 2008 6:02 am Subject: Metta, Ch 2, no 6. nilovg Dear friends, Another brother of Bhåradvåja expressed his anger in a way different from his brothers after he heard that the Bhåradvåja had entered the Sangha. We read in the following sutta, “The Congey-man” (Kindred Sayings I, Chapter VII, 1, §4): Again, while the Exalted One was at the Bamboo Grove, the Bhåradvåja brahmin, known as the Congey-man, also heard that the Bhåradvåja had entered the Sangha. And he, vexed and displeased, sought the Exalted One’s presence, and when there sat at one side in silence. Then the Exalted One, discerning by his mind the thoughts of that man’s mind, addressed him in verse: Whoso does wrong to the man that’s innocent, Him that is pure and from all errors free, His wicked act returns upon that fool Like fine dust that is thrown against the wind. Listening to the Dhamma, even for a short time, is very beneficial. When the Congey-man came to see the Buddha he was angry, although he did not scold him or blame him. However, when he considered with respect the Dhamma he heard, that is, when he considered cause and effect of realities, he gained confidence in the Dhamma. He asked to be ordained under the Buddha. Not long after that he attained the supreme goal of the higher life, he became one of the arahats. ****** Nina. #85003 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Apr 24, 2008 6:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the present moment ... ? .. Jhana requires panna! - II jonoabb Hi James Thanks for the explanations. buddhatrue wrote: >> (a) all tendencies that arise from moment to moment, whether >> wholesome or unwholesome, are accumulated in the succeeding moment >> of consciousness (and thereafter lie latent except when there is >> occasion for them to manifest), > > James: No, this is impossible. We have all lived for countless > lifetimes so it would be impossible to accumulate every single > tendency from a beginingless beginning. Tendencies which are strong > or are strengthened by kamma are carried on, tendencies which are > not drop away. This is what the Buddha taught: we can change our > tendencies and propensity for insight by following his gradual > teaching. You say the strong tendencies are carried on (but the weak are not). I'm wondering how they became strong in the first place, and how "carrying on" differs from "accumulates". Also, would you mind explaining in more detail the idea that tendencies can be strengthened by kamma, and how this would differ from accumulating (by arising). Thanks. >> (b) insight knowledge accumulated in previous lives cannot arise >> in a subsequent lifetime unless and until the teaching on >> insight/the Four Noble Truths has been heard and understood in >> that subsequent lifetime (the only exception to this general >> rule being a Buddha). >> > James: No, insight knowledge isn't accumulated in previous lives > (and you haven't demonstrated any text showing otherwise). The > insight of a sotapanna is bound to result in enlightenment within > seven lifetimes regardless or further contact with a Buddha or the > teaching. If insight knowledge isn't accumulated then how, as you see it, is the insight necessary to become a sotapanna developed? Jon #85004 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Apr 24, 2008 6:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the present moment ... ? .. Jhana requires panna! - II jonoabb Hi James buddhatrue wrote: > To add a bit more, I found this sutta: > > ... > > "Endowed with these six qualities, a person is capable of alighting > on the lawfulness, the rightness of skillful mental qualities even > while listening to the true Dhamma. Which six? > > "He is not endowed with a [present] kamma obstruction, a defilement > obstruction, or a result-of-[past]-kamma obstruction; he has > conviction, has the desire [to listen], and is discerning. > Thanks for the interesting sutta quote. Do you have a reference for it, please? > James: I think that this sutta shows that there is no such thing > as "wisdom accumulating" or "latent wisdom", it is just a matter of > fortunate or unfortunate kamma. If one understands the Dhamma, it > isn't because of "latent wisdom", it is because of fortunate kamma. > If one doesn't understand the Dhamma, it isn't because of a lack > of "accumulated wisdom" it is because of unfortunate kamma. I don't quite agree with this reading of the sutta. To my reading, it shows the importance to the attainment of enlightenment of the *presence*of 3 factors/qualities and the *absence* of 3 other factors. The factors whose presence is required are: conviction [saddha?], desire to listen [chandha?] and discernment [panna?]. The factors whose absence is required are: a present kamma obstruction, a defilement obstruction, or a result-of-past-kamma obstruction. I'm not exactly sure what the last-mentioned 3 factors are, but I would guess they have something to do with past deeds and/or unwholesome accumulations. The term "defilement obstruction" suggests to me accumulated defilements. Jon #85005 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Apr 24, 2008 7:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Direct Knowledge and Inference are Mutually Supportive jonoabb Hi TG Just dealing here with the last part of your post. > [J:] As far as I know, individual states > do not alter; they simply arise and fall away. > ...................................................................... > > TG: This view above is a huge misreading IMO. It is the core problem that > I see in the interpretation of Dhamma as I have described above. The idea of > "continual alteration" is replete throughout the suttas. So I think it is > exactly THIS point that causes the huge problems that we would have with each > others view. Granted, we may see many things very closely, but this point is > crucial. > > The Buddha has compared conditionality to an ocean wave that swells and > recedes. He has given example of stone mountain crags wearing away due to soft > cloth rubbing against it, the ships rotting away (due to the elements) over > time, an adze handles wearing away over time. Now, I think you'll come up with > reasons to reject these, so I'll post some stuff and please respond directly > to the crucial "altering" factors within the quotes... > > > "...his body, consisting of form, composed of the four great elements, > originating from mother and father, built up out of rice and gruel, SUBJECT TO > IMPERMANENCE, TO BEING WORN AND RUBBED AWAY, TO BREAKING APART, AND DISPERSAL." > (The Buddha . . . Connected Discourses of the Buddha, Vol 2, page 1808. > Samyutta Nikaya Book Five.) ... > > Please deal with these terms.... ... "TO BEING WORN AND RUBBED AWAY, TO BREAKING > APART, AND DISPERSAL." > In the sutta you have quoted from (SN 55:21 'Mahanama'), the Buddha is explaining the difference between the body and the mind in terms of what happens upon death, in the particular case of a sotapanna. Whereas the body, which is "subject to impermanence, to being worn and rubbed away, to breaking apart, and dispersal", gets eaten by crows, vultures or other creatures, the mind of the sotapanna "goes upwards, goes to distinction". There is nothing here that speaks of the 'continuous alteration' *of dhammas*. It is the (conventional) body that is being described. I think the other sutta passages you refer to in support of the "continuous alteration of dhammas" -- stone mountain crags wearing away due to soft cloth rubbing against it, the ships rotting away (due to the elements) over time, and adze handles wearing away over time -- are similarly intended to illustrate quite different points. The simile of stone mountain crags wearing away due to soft cloth rubbing against it is given to show the length of time between rebirths as a human being. The ships rotting away, and adze handles wearing away, over time are similes given to show the gradual and imperceptible nature of the increase in understanding in the person developing insight. Sorry, but I just don't see how any of these sutta texts can be taken to support the idea of "continuous alteration of dhammas". Am I missing something obvious? Jon #85006 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Apr 24, 2008 7:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] getting ready for death ( was Re: Metta, Ch 2, no 2.) nilovg Hi Phil, Op 24-apr-2008, om 5:46 heeft Phil het volgende geschreven: > There are many admonitions and encouragements from the Buddha to > ready ourselves for the day we will die, and for the day that our > loved > ones will die. ------ N: I like the suttas very much. The first one: every day we have to contemplate that we are subject to old age, sickness and death is one of my favorites. The one about the deva messengers is Lodewijk's favorite. We are very negligent and thus the suttas that speak straight to the heart are most beneficial, they are a direct encouragement not to be neglectful. We think about the suttas, and then, what next? This depends on the individual, there are no rules. Nina. #85007 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Apr 24, 2008 7:41 am Subject: Han's questions in Bangkok. nilovg Dear Han, Sarah passed on a post written by you after the session with Kh Sujin. Can one select a particular perfection in order to develop it. Kh Sujin answered that it is only thinking. You were wondering whether your idea of thinking was different from her idea (I do not quote literally, since I have lack of time. We go away for a long weekend). There may be conditions for thinking of a specific perfection, more than of other perfections. But, as I wrote before, let us keep in mind that all perfections develop together and condition one another, even though we do not expressively think of this or that perfection. What you suggested is not actually a problem as I see it. If there are conditions for thinking of patience, good, it is a conditioned dhamma that thinks in that way. About my examples for natural strong dependence condition, the aircon etc. These involve thinking about long stories and I am not sure this is so helpful for understanding this intricate condition. We should not try to find out too much. Whereto? The aim is detachment from the idea of self, to have more understanding how anatta realities are. I think that in the same way we should see your question about abhyaakata dhamma conditioning another abhyaakata dhamma by way of natural strong dependence condition. Does it bring detachment to know this? As to object-condition: here Kh Sujin gave a very good point. If we have more understanding of the object that presents itself right now we also will understand object-condition. All these conditions are not theory, they pertain to our life right now. Hardness may present itself through the bodydoor now, and then hardness is object- condition for the body-consciousness that experiences it, and if this is followed by sati and pa~n~naa, hardness is object-condition for sati sampaja~n~na. But nobody can manipulate object-condition. Who knows what the next object will be and for which type of citta it will be object condition? Nina. #85008 From: "connie" Date: Thu Apr 24, 2008 8:51 am Subject: Perfections Corner (132) nichiconn Dear Friends, Ch.2 continues: The ten perfections are supporting conditions for each other, also at the time the Buddha was the ascetic Akitti. He accumulated the perfection of siila together with the other perfections, such as renunciation and energy. We read: "At the time he was the ascetic Akitti he built a hermitage beside a great Kaara tree. When this tree gave fruits he fed on them, and when there were no fruits he fed on its leaves sprinkled with water. Thus he had time and opportunity to apply himself to the attainment of jhaana. The ascetic Akitti searched for Kaara leaves that were sufficient for only one meal a day, because he found that searching for food for two meals would not lead to the eradication of defilements." This is the perfection of patience, because his life was not involved with the urge to eat. We read: "His behaviour caused Sakka, the King of the devas, to wonder why the ascetic Akitti had such pure conduct of action, speech and thought, was devoid of attachment in his life, and had Kaara leaves as his only food, which were ascetic practices most difficult to perform." We should know the aim of our practice, such as the observing of siila, morality. People who want to give up attachment to visible object, sound, odour, flavour and tangible object should know why they are doing this. We read: "When Sakka saw this, he wondered why the ascetic Akitti observed such practice. He thought that the ascetic Akitti practised in this way because he desired to become Sakka, King of the Devas. Sakka, in the guise of a brahmin, came to see the ascetic Akitti, thinking, 'If the ascetic Akitti wishes to become Sakka, he will give me his sodden Kaara leaves, but if he has not such a wish, he will not give them away.' " Sakka thought that if Akitti would aspire to become Sakka he would fulfil the perfection of generosity, daana, and give away his food. We read: "When the ascetic Akitti noticed that the brahmin was in need of food, he took the sodden Kaara leaves and gave them all to the brahmin. He did the same the second day and the third day." Here we see that the kusala he performed at those times were actually the perfections of generosity, daana, of morality, siila, of renunciation, nekkhamma, of patience, khanti, of energy, viriya, of determination or steadfastness, adi.t.thaana, and of truthfulness, sacca, that is, sincerity in the performing of kusala. He fulfilled the perfections in order to attain Buddhahood. All perfections are interrelated and they support one another. connie #85009 From: TGrand458@... Date: Thu Apr 24, 2008 6:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Direct Knowledge and Inference are Mutually Supportive TGrand458@... Hi Jon In a message dated 4/24/2008 8:11:21 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: > "...his body, consisting of form, composed of the four great elements, > originating from mother and father, built up out of rice and gruel, SUBJECT TO > IMPERMANENCE, TO BEING WORN AND RUBBED AWAY, TO BREAKING APART, AND DISPERSAL." > (The Buddha . . . Connected Discourses of the Buddha, Vol 2, page 1808. > Samyutta Nikaya Book Five.) ... > > Please deal with these terms.... ... "TO BEING WORN AND RUBBED AWAY, TO BREAKING > APART, AND DISPERSAL." > In the sutta you have quoted from (SN 55:21 'Mahanama'), the Buddha is explaining the difference between the body and the mind in terms of what happens upon death, in the particular case of a sotapanna. Whereas the body, which is "subject to impermanence, to being worn and rubbed away, to breaking apart, and dispersal", gets eaten by crows, vultures or other creatures, the mind of the sotapanna "goes upwards, goes to distinction"d There is nothing here that speaks of the 'continuous alteration' *of dhammas*. It is the (conventional) body that is being described. ............................................................... TG: 1) I thought "the conventional body" didn't in truth exist for you 'ultimate reality' folks. So why would the Buddha bother describing its activities and fate? Why would he say consciousness is "supported by it and bound up with it"??? Hummmm. (BTW, this quotes appears in probably at least a dozen Suttas in similar forms but not with the same narrative that you point out.) 2) Now, if the conventional body is just concept, and concepts can't change from what I understood some of you "ultimate reality" folks to believe (because concepts are not "realities"), then how could the "concept" of the Buddha's "conventional body" be -- worn and rubbed away, beaten and scattered ??????? So you seem to be saying here that unrealities CAN be worn and rubbed away, beaten and scattered ... but that real realities cannot? Oh what a tangled web we weave. 3) The fact of the matter is, the Buddha is describing the Four Great Elements as he has already defined, within this own statement, that THAT is what the body consists of. So, if he describes the body as wearing away, rubbing away, beaten and scattered, it is obviously the Four Great Element structure that is being affected by such rubbing and wearing away, etc. AND ... CONSCIOUSNESS is supported by it and bound up with it...i.e., the Four Great Elements. If the Four Great Elements and Consciousness are not the things that you call "dhammas," then I guess I don't know what is. 4) The quote that you elected not to reply to, makes it clear that consciousness is dependent on the sense bases and sense elements and moves and alters in conformity to them. Let's refresh that quote shall we and highlight the pertinent terms... this dyad is moving and tottering, impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. “Monks, consciousness comes to be in dependence on a dyad. And how, monks, does consciousness come to be in dependence on a dyad? In dependence on eye and forms there arises eye-consciousness. The eye is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise; forms are impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. Thus this dyad is moving and tottering, impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. “Eye-consciousness is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. The cause and condition for the arising of eye-consciousness is also impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. When, monks, eye-consciousness has arisen in dependence on a condition that is impermanent, how could it be permanent? “The meeting, the encounter, the occurrence of these three things is called eye-contact. Eye-contact too is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. The cause and condition for the arising of eye-contact is also impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. When, monks, eye-contact has arisen in dependence on a condition that is impermanent, how could it be permanent? “Contacted, monks, one feels, contacted one intends, contacted one perceives. Thus these things too are moving and tottering, impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. [The Buddha proceeds to analyze the ear-consciousness, nose-consciousness, tongue-consciousness, body-consciousness, and mind-consciousness in the same manner and finishes with...] “It is in such a way, monks, that consciousness comes to be in dependence on a dyad.â€? (The Buddha . . . CDB, vol. 2, pg. 1172) .................................................................. I think the other sutta passages you refer to in support of the "continuous alteration of dhammas" -- stone mountain crags wearing away due to soft cloth rubbing against it, the ships rotting away (due to the elements) over time, and adze handles wearing away over time -- are similarly intended to illustrate quite different points. The simile of stone mountain crags wearing away due to soft cloth rubbing against it is given to show the length of time between rebirths as a human being. .......................................................... TG: You mean that when the Buddha gives an example of a cloth rubbing against a mountain and says that it would take such and such an amount of time of rubbing to wear it away, that this is not dealing with impermanence or alteration or with conditional changes????? Quite frankly, its irrelevant what he is analogizing. He IS DEMONSTRATING with his analogy -- conditional alteration due to interaction of phenomena. Or do you think he sneaks in meaningless lies about causation while he analogizes? ................................................................ The ships rotting away, and adze handles wearing away, over time are similes given to show the gradual and imperceptible nature of the increase in understanding in the person developing insight. ................................................................. TG: Same comments as above apply here. ................................................................ Sorry, but I just don't see how any of these sutta texts can be taken to support the idea of "continuous alteration of dhammas". Am I missing something obvious? ................................................................ TG You sure are!!!! Sorry Jon. It appears that you are so engrossed with "dhammas theory" that you fail to see relatively simple straightforward points brought direct from the suttas. Anyway, I feel I have proven my point well beyond reasonable doubt, using Suttas, and that you are not willing to accept what is well said....by the Buddha. I feel you evade the quotes that most detract from your views, that you dismiss aspects of other quotes by ignoring there full content, and that you dismiss other quotes that don't fit your views with one excuse or another....all of which is just ell-wriggling as far as I'm concerned. Although I am repeatedly asked to back up everything with direct quotes from Suttas, which I generally do, it seems to me the cornerstone of "your Buddhism" is "Paramattha Dhammas" and "Sabhava" ... two terms, that if I'm not mistaken, don't appear in the Suttas AT ALL! And yet, THIS is what you highlight Buddhism as being centrally about. Doesn't pass the smell test IMO. So there seems no point in going further. I can't seem to remove those pernicious commentarial blinders. Good Day. TG #85010 From: mlnease@... Date: Thu Apr 24, 2008 11:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Metta, Ch 2, no 2. m_nease Hi Walto, Sorry about the delay, yesterday was a bit nuts around here. > Some great stuff in there. Thanks. My pleasure, hope you find some of it useful. > W: > > > In a tale about how mastery of passion and > > > ill-will through Dhamma is more important than > > > scholarly study of texts, we see that this greater > > > virtue was demonstrated in of all things...the > > > answers to a pop quiz! > M: > > So, do you take arahantship to mean mastery of passion > > and ill-will? > > W: > I have no idea. I used those words because they were > included in the description of one of the aspirants in > Ganesh's version of the story. Of course--I should've reviewed the story more closely. > > > What verbal questions (rather than behavioral tests), > > > one wonders, could The Buddha have asked the two > > > students so that the master of his emotions would far > > > exceed the scholar in demonstrating knowledge of > > Dhamma? > > The teachings contain descriptions of states achieved by > > the arahant as well as the means to achieve them. Since > > , in this > > story, the Buddha is trying to save the younger brother > > from calamitous kamma, he asks questions that, though > > pertinent to the teachings, are known by the arahant > > (who knows both 'knowledge that' and 'knowledge how' > > from personal experience) despite his ignorance of (some > > of) the teachings, as I see it. > > I'll buy that. Sounds reasonable. Do you think one could > obtain arahantship with little or no knowledge of the > texts? Definitely--there are many accounts in the texts and of course, for the early arahants, there were no texts or even (by and large) discourses committed to memory, to hear third hand. > Could one (as it says in the story) master > ill-will, passion, and ignorance without that sort of > study? Yes--if the conditions for insight of sufficient depth are present then insight even up to the various stages of awakening are not only possible but inevitable, as I understand it. This kind of insight on having heard a few words is usually (always?) attributed to understanding acquired in previous existences. > W: > > > > As you say, I have said that tranquility is nice. You > > > point out that it's not and ought not to be > > > considered the be-all and end-all of religious > > > practice. I agree. Ganesh's story shows that careful > > > study of texts isn't really where it's at either. > > > But if both can be helpful in developing metta, why > not bless them both? > > M: > > According to the texts, mettaa, in the sense of adosa, > > is also a universal beautiful mental factor that can > > arise with or without understanding. It is not (as I > > see it) the goal any more than tranquility is, for the > > same reasons I mentioned earlier. > > W: Is it really not a goal? That surprises me. I > wouldn't have thought that loving kindness should be seen > as a means to something else. I don't see mettaa as a means to an end, although it can be a meditation object leading to jhaana (assuming that the formidable obstacles to jhaana have been first overcome--a very big assumption). Also I don't think that there is any individual or social good that isn't conditioned by the beautiful mental factors. As I mentioned earlier, though, those factors can occur or be cultivated by anyone, completely independent of the Dhamma or of understanding. > M: > > I have no problem with techniques of relaxation, but I > > don't think they are ever pertinent to the goal of the > > eradication of defilements (though in some cases they > > may temporarily suppress them). > > W: Why couldn't they be useful to prepare our minds--as, > say, when someone insults us (or a loved one dies), we > must compose ourselves before we can really do or think > anything else? As I understand it, when results (vipakka) from past kamma occur, they occur at any time and with their own unique conditions, then cease when the conditions supporting them cease. Habitual kamma can affect how we react but won't necessarily do so. Any underlying proclivity or disposition (anusaya)--sometimes referred to as 'subtle akusala'--that may be temporarily suppressed by metta, for example, can return undiminished at any time when the conditions exist for its return. Of the beautiful mental factors, understanding (pa~n~naa) alone has the ability to eradicate unwholesome underlying tendencies. Also, when understanding is cultivated all the other beautiful universal mental factors are cultivated with it--understanding doesn't arise without them. This and its ability to eradicate anusaya makes understanding dimensionally superior to all the other beautiful factors, as I see it. > > > What are those different yogas the Vedantists talk > > > about Jnana, Bhakti, a couple of others?--each > > > leading in its way to the promised land? > > M: > > I honestly have no idea, having read and heard none of > this. > > W: This is from wiki: > > The Bhagavad Gita ('Song of the Lord'), uses the term yoga > extensively in a variety of senses. Of many possible > meanings given to the term in the Gita, most emphasis is > given to these three:[29] > > Karma yoga: The yoga of action > Bhakti yoga: The yoga of devotion[28] > Jnana yoga: The yoga of knowledge > > M: > > > As far as I know, though, the promised land, regardless > > of the religion, is a concept and has nothing at all to > > do with nibbaana, the third noble truth. > > W: > Perhaps I used the wrong words. I confess, though, that I > don't know what you mean by 'concept' here. I suppose > that "promised land" is a metaphor while the third noble > truth is not. Is that what you mean? I didn't mean to pick on your use of 'promised land'. Something along those lines seems to be an important element in a lot of religions including some Buddhisms. Nowhere outside of the Buddhadhamma, though, is the ultimate goal seen as the breaking of the cycle of birth and death--the chain of conditioned origination--by means of insight into the three (or at least one of the three) characteristics of all dhammas--unsatisfactoriness, impermanence and voidness of self (as far as I know). This is a crucial difference, since in the Buddhadhamma there is no self to go to the promised land or to have everlasting life or whatever. For the record, for me this is largely theoretical understanding (pretty much like the learned brother, I guess, though I'm not so learned). I've had no profound insights and haven't come close to any stage of awakening. Still the way of looking at things outlined here does seem to me to be consistent both with the teachings and with my own experiences, so I have a fair amount of confidence in it. But I certainly don't claim any special knowledge. Thanks for your patience and for the good discussion. mike #85011 From: "William\\Alex" Date: Thu Apr 24, 2008 12:49 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] An introduction. individual36 Just what I've looked up on the internet in the past couple of days, to be honest, mostly the Abhidhamma Sangaha (which seems to be the same as Bhikku Bodhi's "A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma") and Sujin Boriharnwanaket's "A Survey of Paramattha Dhammas". I don't own any texts on Abhidhamma. "A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma" by Bhikku Bodhi is copyrighted, which I disapprove of ethically (plus I'm slightly cheap and don't have a lot of money). See Wikipedia's article on "anti-copyright." If the same information can be found for free instead, I'd prefer to get it that way. I also don't like Bhikku Bodhi's traditionalist view, for a variety of reasons. Instead, I prefer modern Theravada teachers who aren't too concerned, for instance, about the "war on karma," and instead consider vibhajjavada to be the essence of Theravada (also of Zen), not Bhikku Bodhi's peculiar understanding of saddha as being faith which is only partially blind rather than fully blind. I don't know Bhikku Nanamoli, but again, "The Path of Purification," is another copyrighted text and I would prefer to avoid purchashing copyrighted Buddhist texts. I am fairly cynical about the Buddhist Publication Society and believe they could release a considerably greater amount of texts into the public domain. William, Alex LBIDD@... wrote: > > Hi William/Alex, > > You seem to have a detailed understanding of abhidhamma already. What > texts have you studied? We use "A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma" > and the "Path of Purification" as primary texts. Also Nyanatiloka's > "Buddhist Dictionary" is very useful, as well as the Nikayas of course. <...> #85012 From: "Walter Horn" Date: Thu Apr 24, 2008 5:18 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Metta, Ch 2, no 2. walterhorn Dear Mike, Thanks very much for your insightful (deep even!) post. There's quite a lot to think about there, and I look forward to spending some time with it. Best, Walto #85013 From: "William\\Alex" Date: Thu Apr 24, 2008 1:05 pm Subject: Questions about the classifications of citta individual36 On a Buddhist forum I visit, a Theravada monk there created several charts of the cittas to aid with memorization, saying that there is a nine-fold classification of cittas: Ja-tibhedanaya (by class) Bhu-mibhedanaya (by realm) Sobhan.abhedanaya (by beauty) Lokabhedanaya (by mundaneness) Hetubhedanaya (by root) Jha-nabhedanaya (by concentration) Vedana-bhedanaya (by feeling) Sampayogabhedanaya (by association) San.kha-rabhedanaya (by prompting) I've been trying to re-create his chart, partially because I found some inconsistencies (to double-check his work), but also for my own sake, to see that I can figure it out. I've been using the Abhidhammattha Sangaha here, as a guide: http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/abhisgho/abhis00.htm Some of the characteristics aren't implicitly mentioned, but rather, I had to infer them from analysis, such as for instance the idea that all of the formless and supramundane cittas are sobhana (beautiful), obviously. So far, I'm almost finished re-creating the chart (actually I'm making it a table first, because that was easier, then I'll transfer it to a chart). I have just a little bit of information missing. My questions, so you could help me fill in the gaps: #1. What is the textual origin of the nine-fold classification (where is it in Abhidhamma) and where could I find more information about this? I ask because it doesn't appear to be clearly mentioned in the Abhidhammattha Sangaha. It is somewhat alluded to, because the various properties are mentioned, but the idea of a specific "nine-fold classification" and some of the specific terms this Theravada monk used are not there. #2. Of the asobhana kamabhumi cittas, which are sasankharika (prompted) and which are asankharika (unprompted)? #3. Of the asobhana kamabhumi cittas, which are sampayutta (associated) and which are vippayutta (disassociated)? What are they associated or disassociated with? #4. Of the rupabhumi cittas, the arupabhumi cittas, and lokutarrabhumi cittas, which are asankharika (prompted) and which are asankharika (unprompted)? #5. Of the rupabhumi cittas, the arupabhumi cittas, and lokutarrabhumi cittas, which are sampayutta (associated) and which are vippayutta (disassociated)? What are they associated or disassociated with? About that first question (and perhaps some of the others), I sent a message to the monk a couple days ago, but no response. When and if he responds, I'll let you know. William\Alex ** #85014 From: han tun Date: Thu Apr 24, 2008 6:23 pm Subject: Re: Han's questions in Bangkok hantun1 Dear Nina (Sarah), > Nina: Sarah passed on a post written by you after the session with Kh Sujin. Can one select a particular perfection in order to develop it. Kh Sujin answered that it is only thinking. You were wondering whether your idea of thinking was different from her idea (I do not quote literally, since I have lack of time. We go away for a long weekend). There may be conditions for thinking of a specific perfection, more than of other perfections. But, as I wrote before, let us keep in mind that all perfections develop together and condition one another, even though we do not expressively think of this or that perfection. What you suggested is not actually a problem as I see it. If there are conditions for thinking of patience, good, it is a conditioned dhamma that thinks in that way. Han: Thank you very much for letting me know what Khun Sujin meant by “thinking.â€? Thinking means thinking of a specific perfection, more than of other perfections, and there may be conditions for thinking in that way. I have no disagreement to this point. As regards the selection of perfection, while accepting the fact that all perfections develop together and condition one another, I still consider that I have the choice to select, even though my selection may have conditions for selecting in that way, or even if my selection is done with atta-ditthi, i.e. “Iâ€? select it. However, as you do not see it as a problem, I would better not pursue this matter any further. ------------------------------ > Nina: About my examples for natural strong dependence condition, the aircon etc. These involve thinking about long stories and I am not sure this is so helpful for understanding this intricate condition. We should not try to find out too much. Whereto? The aim is detachment from the idea of self, to have more understanding how anatta realities are.I think that in the same way we should see your question about abhyaakata dhamma conditioning another abhyaakata dhamma by way of natural strong dependence condition. Does it bring detachment to know this? Han: At the very beginning of my post for this subject, I have written, “This topic is just for my academic interest. You can skip it, if you like.â€? So it was just for my academic interest, not as my aim for detachment from the idea of self. I have given up considering the isuue of self and non-self, because for me it only causes more confusion. But I will take note of this, and I will not presnt any issue, in the future at the Foundation, which will not lead to any detachment. Sarah may also kindly note this point for our future selection of topics to be presented at the Foundation. ------------------------------ > Nina: As to object-condition: here Kh Sujin gave a very good point. If we have more understanding of the object that presents itself right now we also will understand object-condition. All these conditions are not theory, they pertain to our life right now. Hardness may present itself through the bodydoor now, and then hardness is object- condition for the body-consciousness that experiences it, and if this is followed by sati and pa~n~naa, hardness is object-condition for sati sampaja~n~na. But nobody can manipulate object-condition. Who knows what the next object will be and for which type of citta it will be object condition? Han: I agree completely with your above statement. What I was driving at, at that time, was the importance of the sense objects that enter our sense doors all the time throughout our waking hours. They are the conditions for the arising of kusala cittas and akusala cittas. Anyway, I had admitted that while I was obsessed with the importance of the objects, I had overlooked the basics. I then quoted SN 35.98 Samvara sutta, where one bhikkhu was declining away from wholesome states, and another bhikkhu was not declining away from wholesome states, while both were observing the same object. It all depends on the mind of the beholder, whether he is looking at the objects with sati sampaja~n~na or not. In conclusion, I thank you very much for your kind comments. Respectfully, Han #85015 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Thu Apr 24, 2008 6:35 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma contrasted with modern science. rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "William\\Alex" wrote: >> Aside from the six elements, the most fundamental problem I have with > Abhidhamma, here is a different example: According to Abhidhamma, there > are six senses. These are divided into the five sense-organs (pasa-da > ru-pas): eyes, ears, nose, tongue, and body. The material base for > consciousness (citta, literally "mind" or "heart") is called the hadaya > vatthu or hadaya ru-pa (the "material form of the heart-basis"). > > Now, from what I've read, the hadaya vatthu is equated with the heart > organ. Dear William The hadaya vatthu is not equated with the heart organ in Abhidhamma. Robert #85016 From: LBIDD@... Date: Thu Apr 24, 2008 7:41 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Guardians of the world - shame and moral dread (was Re: At the Foundation) lbidd2 Hi Scott, "Their proximate cause is respect for self and respect for others, respectively. These two states are called by the Buddha the guardians of the world because they protect the world from falling into widespread immorality." Scott: "How do you see the relationship between hiri and ottappa as constituents of a moment of kusala consciousness and the thoughts one might have conditioned by such a moment?" Larry: I think the experience of self respect or the experience of respect for others usually conditions all sorts of other wholesome activities. The experience of shame at one's own unwholesome activities usually conditions the suppression of those activities, while the experience of rejecting another's unwholesome activities usually conditions the pointing-out of that unwholesomeness to the other in order to condition the arising of shame in them, or possibly no longer associating with that other. As I see it, the problem here is that in many cases wholesome and unwholesome are not truly understood and, consequently, views on the cultural norm are substituted for an understanding of wholesome and unwholesome. In some cultures it might be "wrong" to wear a certain color. And if you do wear that wrong color your transgression will be very severely pointed-out. For that reason I'm a little skeptical about cultivating shame and dread. I would much rather cultivate self respect and respect for others. Larry #85017 From: Sukinder Date: Thu Apr 24, 2008 8:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: report on Bangkok and Kaeng Krajan sukinderpal Hi Ken H, Sorry for the delay in responding. This week I had other things to do. I’m snipping off most of your post to respond to some parts only. ================= S: > You know all these points already and this is likely from my own confusion that I state this, but then I expect that you will help me to sort it out, . ;-) I think one of the important beginning steps to understanding the Dhamma is to know the difference between concept and reality. For this to happen beyond just 'theory', understanding the difference between sense-door experience and the following mind-door activity must arise. ----------------- Ken: Once again; it is very kind of you to be putting it this way. But I am the one with the confusion, and you are the one sorting it out. So I take your point about sense-door experience v. thinking about it. Sukin: But as I said, you know all this already. Actually the thought regarding this point arose followed by a desire to build upon it, but at some point it felt like I was trying to make a ‘rule’ out of this. But no harm done I guess…. ------------------------- S: > In other words, 'seeing' or 'visible object' is understood to be different from the following 'thinking' about what is seen. Of course this will happen only at the pariyatti level at first (and for a long, long time more), and I don't think that A. Sujin expects this stage to be bypassed with the intention to inspire the actual knowing of the "characteristic" of seeing / visible object or patipatti. And given that this is necessary to happen over and again, and given that our "thinking" is based largely on eye-door experience, the reminder about seeing / visible object becomes pertinent, I think. ------------------------- Ken: OK, . . . . (trying to think clearly) . . . but there has to be more going on than just constant reminders, doesn't there? I mean, anyone can say "What about seeing now? What about visible object?" I still feel I was missing something that others were not missing. Actually, that is not quite right because I did understand seeing and visible object in a slightly more imminent (immediate, dramatic, imperative?) way than I usually do. Sukin: I think I understand what you are saying, so I take your point about this ‘reminder’ thing. In the end only the actual arising of panna can be of value. Again, thanks for the lesson in Ditthujukamma. :-) One point about A. Sujin’s reference to “seeing now”; I and some other discussants as well, often go on about realities in a way as if the answer lies at the end of theorizing about it. A.Sujin would then simply point to the moment since this as you know, is the only ‘real’ object of study. Perhaps because you were not involved in the same, her words had a different effect on you? ================ S: > But ofcourse, from your own perspective, it is the theory about the 'frequency of seeing over other doorways' which could act as a hindrance being something based on "my" experience of things as against what "in reality" might be the case. ------------------- Ken: Yes, exactly! I have been trained to be suspicious of anything associated with me that is, at the same time, purported to be associated with the Dhamma. Blame DSG for that! :-) Sukin: It’s more that unlike me and perhaps some others, you are not lax about this point. ;-) ================ Ken: Visible objects, audible objects, olfactory objects (etc) appear constantly (as the fruits of past kamma) throughout the day. Some become the object of considerable amounts of thinking, and some don't. In other words, some become 'all about me' and some don't. Sukin: And then we are also reminded about those other dhammas such as ignorance, attachment, wrong view and so on. Still in the end panna arises only when it does and “thinking” such as about the frequency of sense door experience, this too must be understood for what it is. ================ S: > But I don't think this necessarily follows. After all, to be saying that seeing arises more frequently may as well be a statement about the frequency of 'thinking about seeing' and this becomes relevant at a point of time when the reality / concept distinction has yet to be understood well enough. So do we have to interpret A. Sujin's reminder as denying the arising of other sense door experience, or is she simply drawing the attention to what *can* be understood now? And would all this be going at the expense of possibly knowing other realities and appear similar to 'formal practice' or is it in fact a reminder about understanding only that which "appears"? ----------------------------- Ken: Good point! I think that is what Nina was saying in her reply: < N: Why not the term 'arise'? Because when it appears and shows its characteristic, it has arisen already.> Sukin: Could we say that what “appears” besides standing in contrast to what does ‘not appear’, can also remind us of the fact of there being at any given moment only paramattha dhammas such that a reference to one object can condition awareness of whatever other object that subsequently arises…?? =============== S: > Besides if understanding arises for example, to know so called 'background noise', would anyone doubt or deny this. But given that there has never been any understanding about seeing and the thinking which follows and which undeniably does happen all day, what is the chance that one might come to know these other sense door experiences anyway? If "reminders" are to be what they are meant to be, would it make sense to be reminded about experiences that are hardly ever registered? ---------------------- Ken: I suppose not. (But then, someone could make out a case for why we should be reminded of unregistered experiences, and I would think I understood that too!) Sukin: I guess it is easy to be talking about something being reminder for ‘awareness’ when what in fact ends up happening is just more ‘thinking about’, and the danger here is in mistaking this for the other. :-/ ============== S: > Am I totally confused? I do feel quite muddle headed at this point, so I'll await your response. :-] --------------------------------- Ken: No, you are not muddle headed, you are just trying to see what is going on in my muddled head. Thanks for your help. And thanks to everyone else who has responded to my vague questions. I've taken up enough time, and I'd better take a back seat for a while. Otherwise, people will all be asking, "Why does it have to be all about KenH?" :-) Sukin: I’m sure that I’ll benefit from whatever you have to say. But I know also that like me, writing posts is not easy for you. So no need to respond. Metta, Sukin #85018 From: Sukinder Date: Thu Apr 24, 2008 8:19 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Direct Knowledge and Inference are Mutually Supportive sukinderpal Hi TG, Sorry for the delay in responding. =================== S: What lesson in "conditionality" do you get from considering the fact of the wearing away of rock by rubbing a cloth? ............................................... TG: The lesson is that -- formations alter in accordance to the conditional circumstances brought to bear. They do not alter independently on their own. Sukin: Are you referring to the four primary rupas themselves, that these condition one another in the span of one rupa moment? ================= Do some of the primary rupas fall away faster than others in what you take to be cloth and rock? Does observing dry ice evaporate in a period of time condition more understanding about impermanence and conditionality than when looking at a stone for the same length of time? Is dynamiting a big boulder a lesson in impermanence, if so why, if not why? In all these cases is the rapidity of the arising and falling away of 'visible object' or 'hardness' any different? ........................................................ TG: All of these (or anything else) can be lessons, IF, careful attention is paid to the conditional circumstances in terms of "the origin of a formation, the present supporting structures of said formation, and the conditions causing said formation to alter. Sukin: I am guessing that by “conditional circumstances” you are making a reference to a concept. How does this translate in terms of a group of the four primary rupas each of which condition the other, arising and falling away together in an instant? =================== TG: Sitting stupidly looking at things, of course, will not provide any lessons. Sukin: But some conceptual referents do provide you with insight fodder? While I would say that panna can arise at any given moment to know any reality including those times when ‘stupidly looking’, you on the other hand seem to be putting stress on a particular way of observing conventional happenings and this I suspect, must involve ‘intention’ to observe, is it not? =================== What good can be got from "thinking about" the impermanence of conventional objects when no attention is ever paid to the characteristics of visible object, hardness etc? .................................................. TG: I look at the NATURE of phenomena as indicators of reality. And that nature is -- conditioned, impermanent, afflicted, and nonself. Sukin: The only real conditions between rupas happen at the level of kalapas, do you agree? =================== TG: Mountain, visible object, hardness ... I'm not for letting any of them fool me thank you. Sukin: If the distinction between concept and reality is not made, then I’m afraid that ‘being fooled’ is inevitable. =================== TG: They're all relative and all without (their own) essence. Sukin: OK, forget about “their own”, what about characteristics? Does mountain exhibit any characteristic to be potential object of insight? =================== TG: You see, whatever it is that WE CALL a "mountain," is conditioned, impermanent, afflicted (by impermanence), nonself. Whatever it is we call "visible-object" is conditioned, impermanent, afflicted, and nonself. Whatever it is that we call "hardness" is conditioned, impermanent, afflicted, and nonself. Sukin: The primary rupas condition one another. The derived rupas are conditioned by the four primary rupas. Each of these have the characteristic of rise and fall, and insight can know this. What does panna “know” when it comes to the impermanence and so called nonself of mountains? =================== TG: If you prefer to think of a "mountain" as "hardness," that's alright by me. If you want to think of a human-being as Five Aggregates, that's alright by me. Sukin: No I won’t think of mountain as hardness or human being as Five Aggregates. I stop at mountain and human being as being mere concept and see no need to substantiate these. =================== TG: I do both of these things habitually. But if you think that by doing so you have cut through seeing things as entities or self, then IMO, you are sadly and tragically mistaken. Sukin: Exactly, such thinking can’t lead to insight; they in fact likely reinforce ‘self view’. Which is why Satipatthana is the *only* practice leading to insight taught by the Buddha. =================== You say that the former supports the latter, but from what you have expressed here, it seems that the result is further proliferation in the wrong direction... But you may like to explain more. ................................................... TG: Its a shame the Buddha isn't around so you could ask him why he did it on a regular basis. And no, not just to the uneducated in elements, aggregates, etc. Sukin: I’m not good at interpreting the Suttas. They talk about Dhamma with reference to people and situations and it is so easy to be drawn in by these to forget that in reality there is just the “All” of the khandhas, ayatanas, dhatu etc. Obviously I trust whatever has been attributed to the Buddha; my problem is with certain people’s interpretation, including your own. Between different interpretations obviously I prefer those that point to present moment realities, and why not? Why would I prefer those interpretations which instead of pointing to realities, encourage thinking about ‘self’ in terms of past and future? Do you really believe that there were those during the Buddha’s time who were enlightened without “knowing” elements? Do you reduce the Buddha’s teachings to being aimed at the development of a certain “attitude” of mind regardless of any insight into the nature of realities as nama or rupa, as dhatu, as ayatanas and so on? Look forward to your response TG, but please allow me time to reply. Metta, Sukin #85019 From: Sukinder Date: Thu Apr 24, 2008 8:20 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Metta, Ch 2, no 2. sukinderpal Dear Walto, ====================== [snip] > You have compared reciting etc. with reading the commentaries and insist > that they both stand on the same ground. Reading the commentaries can be > done with 'self / wrong understanding', but it can also be conditioned > by rightly seeing the value of listening to the Teachings and the > importance of developing the understanding at the intellectual level. > "Doing something" such as reciting and meditating on the other hand, > this seem to go at the expense of the former, in other words a disregard > to what the Teachings say about the nature of conditioned realities. > > In short, metta develops by *knowing* metta and not by 'wanting' to > develop it. > > What say you? ;-) Walto: I'd like to respond, but I'm afraid I don't understand the distinction(s) you are making here well enough to do so competantly. Perhaps you could elaborate further on why meditating is more likely to be a hindrance to development of metta than studying texts? Sukin: If studying texts is approached with the same attitude as one does with meditation, namely with an intention to make arise desired states, then it is wrong. However, because we must have heard the Buddha’s teachings before any understanding of the kind can arise, and because there is so much ignorance and wrong view accumulated, continuing to develop the understanding at this level must necessarily go on for a long, long time. This however does not mean that one must make a choice with an idea of ‘control’, this being basically where we are at, the inclination to listen to and studying the Dhamma can arise and increase naturally in comparison to interest in other things, particularly other teachings and philosophies. Sure, as worldlings, there will be many more moments of plain attachment, though the one accompanying ‘wrong view’ must necessarily become less and less. Overall the unwholesome intentions will be much more, and these can’t be any good, however what does also arise and which then determines any progress made, are moments conditioned by some level of understanding and driven by chanda (wish to do) to finally count as the “real” motivating force. This I can’t see as being applicable to the idea of ‘meditation’, metta or any other. In ‘study’ the conditions arise as per the accumulated understanding and it does not mean that moments of direct understanding can’t arise as well. Overall however, having yet to accumulate the desired level where awareness of the characteristic of present moment realities then comes relatively easily, that which does arise, and this too very rarely in between moments of ignorance and other unwholesome states, is understanding at the level of suttamaya and cintamaya panna. Most go wrong even at this stage and is exactly why ideas about ‘meditation’ arise. But if in fact there is right understanding at the intellectual level, this is firm footing in that the understanding is in line with the way things are, namely that “dhammas arise by conditions beyond the control of self”. And this helps to steer one away from undertaking any wrong practices which have at the root, an idea to control realities. Sure, unlike the development of vipassana, samatha bhavana, and metta is one, does at some point require better place and posture for its further development. But this is for him who has the very keen understanding and is ready for Jhana. The idea of better place involves being extremely sensitive to inputs through the five senses, how these easily distract and condition attachment. In other words, even this is “conditioned” and can’t lead to any good if it becomes an object of idealistic thinking / wrong understanding. This does not mean that metta can’t be developed. It can and must, but this happens not by “wanting”, including ideas about formally doing it, but gradually as it arises naturally in daily life without any interference by thoughts to make it arise and grow more. Furthermore I believe, at the level of where most of us are, it is the idea about ‘metta’ (or “my” metta) which strikes us and which then conditions the ‘wanting’ to have it. In contrast I believe that those who do have the required metta and are ready to experience the deep concentration with this as subject, they think more in terms of being ‘without unwholesomeness’. And this it seems, is where the attention must be even for us. In fact if at all there has been any awareness of tendencies to unwholesomeness in daily life, one thinks in terms of things happening at this level. Any interest in developing metta etc. can only realistically be had with reference to how much or little it arises in daily life. Most people in disregarding the reality of daily life, happily jump to ideas about developing metta (even to Jhana), in the confines of their own room or at a retreat, and don’t seem to be satisfied with the prospect of developing any level of wholesomeness, little by little based on the reality of their own accumulations. It seems like ‘denial’ at work. I know that this is not what you are doing. But still, there is an element of being unrealistic…it seems. I know this post is long and soon you will find out that this is quite characteristic of me. ;-) Metta, Sukin #85020 From: LBIDD@... Date: Thu Apr 24, 2008 8:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] An introduction. lbidd2 Hi William/Alex, I think Bhikkhu Bodhi is an excellent translator and commentator. And I don't have any problems with copyright. It's simply a matter of economics, which is dependent arising, like everything else. Larry W/A: "I also don't like Bhikku Bodhi's traditionalist view, for a variety of reasons. Instead, I prefer modern Theravada teachers who aren't too concerned, for instance, about the "war on karma," and instead consider vibhajjavada to be the essence of Theravada (also of Zen), not Bhikku Bodhi's peculiar understanding of saddha as being faith which is only partially blind rather than fully blind." #85021 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Apr 25, 2008 12:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Han's questions in Bangkok nilovg Dear Han, Op 25-apr-2008, om 3:23 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > So it was just for my academic interest, not as my aim for > detachment from the idea of self. I have given up considering the > isuue of self and non-self, because for me it only causes more > confusion. But I will take note of this, and I will not presnt any > issue, in the future at the Foundation, which will not lead to any > detachment. Sarah may also kindly note this point for our future > selection of topics to be presented at the Foundation. -------- N: As I see it, no need for selection of only those issues that are leading to detachment. Please, do not worry at all! We are not anaagaamis nor arahats, and full of attachment. Just speak about what naturally comes to you. What you say is helpful for all and then we can listen to the answer. Each one of us will react differently. As you said: It all depends on the mind of the beholder, whether he is looking at the objects with sati sampaja~n~na or not. As to the issue of self and non-self, of course it is difficult for all of us. We ask questions that come to us naturally (without worry), and then we know that we need to listen and read again and again. Understanding grows very little at the time, we may even not notice its growing. But this is no reason for discouragement. I know you are not discouraged, since you have no expectations and this is good. You said: I do not think of attaining stages of insight, and this means that you do not cling to this idea. It is beneficial if there is just a little more understanding. It is helpful if we see that what we learn in books is actually about the dhammas appearing now. Dhamma is all about life. But it takes a long, long time to really grasp this. It does not matter that it takes long and I wish especially that you do not worry about your questions and issues. -------- Nina. > #85022 From: han tun Date: Fri Apr 25, 2008 1:25 am Subject: Re: Han's questions in Bangkok hantun1 Dear Nina, > Nina: As I see it, no need for selection of only those issues that are leading to detachment. Please, do not worry at all! We are not anaagaamis nor arahats, and full of attachment. Just speak about what naturally comes to you. What you say is helpful for all and then we can listen to the answer. Each one of us will react differently. As you said: It all depends on the mind of the beholder, whether he is looking at the objects with sati sampaja~n~na or not. As to the issue of self and non-self, of course it is difficult for all of us. We ask questions that come to us naturally (without worry), and then we know that we need to listen and read again and again. Understanding grows very little at the time, we may even not notice its growing. But this is no reason for discouragement. I know you are not discouraged, since you have no expectations and this is good. You said: I do not think of attaining stages of insight, and this means that you do not cling to this idea. It is beneficial if there is just a little more understanding. It is helpful if we see that what we learn in books is actually about the dhammas appearing now. Dhamma is all about life. But it takes a long, long time to really grasp this. It does not matter that it takes long and I wish especially that you do not worry about your questions and issues. ------------------------------ Han: I thank you very much for your kind understanding, and your great patience with me. Okay Nina, I will not worry about my questions and issues, and I will speak about what naturally comes to me. I also take note of many useful points contained in your above post. For example, I like what you said about understanding growing very little at the time, and we may even not notice its growing. I hope I will have more understanding before I die. Respectfully, Han #85023 From: han tun Date: Fri Apr 25, 2008 3:30 am Subject: Patthaana (32) hantun1 Patthana (32) Dear Friends, We are studying (6) Conascence Condition (sahajaata-paccaya). This Condition is divided into six types. We had taken up the first two types. We will now take up the third type. The Third type: (3) okkantikkha.ne naamaruupam a~n~nama~n~nam sahajaata-paccayena paccayo. At the moment of conception, mentality and materiality are mutually related to one another by conascence condition. At the moment of conception (okkanti-kha.na) kamma produces some naamas and ruupas at the same time. Naamas are patisandhi citta (rebirth-linking consciousness) and its associated cetasikas. Ruupas are: (i) heart-base decad – 10 ruupas (ii) body-base decad – 10 ruupas (iii) sex decad – 10 ruupas Among the naamas the important factor for our consideration for the third type of conascence condition is “patisandhi citta” or rebirth-linking consciousness. Among the ruupas the important factor for our consideration for the third type of conascence condition is “hadaya-vatthu” or heart-base. At the moment of rebirth (okkanti-kha.na), patisandhi citta and hadaya-vatthu are mutually related to one another by conascence condition. They arise together at the same time; and without patisandhi citta, hadaya-vatthu cannot arise; and without hadaya-vatthu, patisandhi citta cannot arise, These two are conditioning each other by conascence condition (sahajaata-paccaya) as well as by mutuality condition (a~n~nama~n~na-paccaya). ------------------------------ Here, it may be useful to know the composition of the three decads. Heart-base decad (vatthu dasaka ruupa kalaapa) = (i) hadaya-vatthu, heart-base, (ii) pathavi, earth element, (iii) aapo, water element, (iv) tejo, heat element, (v) vaayo, wind element, (vi) vanna, colour, (vii) gandha, smell, (viii) rasa, taste, (ix) oja, nutriment, (x) jiivitindriya, life-faculty. Body-base decad (kaaya dasaka ruupa kalaapa) = (i) kaaya-vatthu or kaaya-pasaada, body sense-organ, (ii) pathavi, earth element, (iii) aapo, water element, (iv) tejo, heat element, (v) vaayo, wind element, (vi) vanna, colour, (vii) gandha, smell, (viii) rasa, taste, (ix) oja, nutriment, (x) jiivitindriya, life-faculty. Sex decad (bhaava dasaka ruupa kalaapa) = (i) itthi-bhaava, feminity, or purisa-bhaava, masculinity, (ii) pathavi, earth element, (iii) aapo, water element, (iv) tejo, heat element, (v) vaayo, wind element, (vi) vanna, colour, (vii) gandha, smell, (viii) rasa, taste, (ix) oja, nutriment, (x) jiivitindriya, life-faculty. Heart-base (hadaya-vatthu), as defined in A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma: According to the Pali commentators, the heart serves as the physical support for all cittas other than the two sets of fivefold sense consciousness, which take their respective sensitivities as their bases. In the canonical Abhidhamma the heart-base is not expressly mentioned. The Patthaana, the last book of the Abhidhamma Pitaka, simply speaks of “that matter in dependence on which the mind-element and mind-consciousness-element occur.” (yam ruupam nissaaya mano-dhaatu ca mano-vi~n~naana-dhaatu ca vattanti tam ruupam). The Commentaries, however, subsequently specify “that matter” to be the heart-base, a cavity situated within the physical heart. To be continued. metta, Han #85024 From: "connie" Date: Fri Apr 25, 2008 6:05 am Subject: Perfections Corner (133) nichiconn Dear Friends, Ch.2 continues: Akitti was steadfast in generosity, he did not hesitate because of avarice. He did not long for anything in life, not even for something very slight. This is the perfection of sincerity. We read: "The ascetic Akitti was unshakable in generosity while he offered his sodden Kaara leaves for three consecutive days. He fulfilled the perfection of loving-kindness, mettaa, by his disposition to give assistance to all beings. He fulfilled the perfection of equanimity, upekkhaa, by evenmindedness or neutrality, not being disturbed by controversial conduct of people or by trying events." Sakka begged for food for three consecutive days, but the ascetic Akitti was unshakable in his determination to give, and he gave, no matter who was asking. We read: "As regards the perfection of pa~n~naa, he knows which dhammas are beneficial conditions for the fulfilment of the perfections and which are not. He abandons the dhammas which are not beneficial and he directs his practice towards those which are beneficial. When Sakka knew the disposition of the ascetic Akitti, he offered a boon, whereupon the Great Being, the ascetic Akitti, explained the Dhamma with regard to the receiving of boons." Further on in the Commentary we read: "Sakka noticed that the ascetic Akitti dwelt in contentedness. He asked him: 'What, great Brahmin, are you wishing for, that you are dwelling here all alone in the heat?' " Sakka interrogated Akitti because he wanted to know about his sincerity in practising virtue to the highest degree, so that even Sakka called him great Brahmin. We read: "Akitti answered, 'Sakka, King of the devas, rebirth is dukkha, the breaking up of the body is dukkha, and dying with delusion is dukkha. Therefore I dwell here all alone.' Sakka answered: 'Well spoken Kassapa *1 , you expressed this very well. I will give you a boon, choose whatever you wish.' " *1 This is the name of his clan, the Kassapa clan. One may have wonder what this means. Here the firm determination for the development of kusala is shown of the ascetic Akitti who wishes for a boon. The boon that he wishes for are all ten perfections. We read: "The ascetic Akitti said, 'Sakka, lord of the devas, you have offered me a boon. People who have children, a wife, possessions and all kinds of pleasant things, are attached to them, even though their attachment does not cause any harm. However, I wish to be free from all degrees of attachment to such things. That is the boon I would like to have.' " This shows that he had a precise understanding of his cittas: he did not wish to have attachment even if it would not cause any harm. Someone who has no firm determination in the development of the perfections may believe that attachment makes life comfortable and pleasant, and that, so long as attachment does not cause any harm, there is no danger in it. However, Akitti wanted to be free from all attachment. This is the steadfastness in kusala to the degree of a perfection. We read: "Thereupon Sakka said, 'You have well spoken, Kassapa. What else do you wish for?'" connie #85025 From: "Walter Horn" Date: Fri Apr 25, 2008 6:48 am Subject: Re: Metta, Ch 2, no 2. walterhorn Dear Sukin, Mike et al., Thanks for your detailed response. I have a question on one point (although Mike likely answered it in his post already and I just didn't understand it): --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sukinder wrote: > If studying texts is approached with the same attitude as one > does with meditation, namely with an intention to make arise desired > states, then it is wrong. However, because we must have heard the > Buddha's teachings before any understanding of the kind can arise, and > because there is so much ignorance and wrong view accumulated, > continuing to develop the understanding at this level must necessarily > go on for a long, long time. Isn't this suggestion that we must engage in study "for a long, long time" sort of contrary to the point of the story we've been talking about (that Ganesh recently posted)? Surely the main point of that tale was that one can be derailed by study. You suggest below that as a result of study the correct understandings are more likely to arise. I have also suggested that the correct attitudes are more likely to arise as a result of meditative practices. These are empirical questions, of course, but I will say (based on what limited experience I have), that I think both of those propositions are true. As to issues involving motives, ends, etc., I confess that I find them very difficult. Both your post and Mike's make interesting remarks on that subject, but the issue is so complicated. I suppose that it's hard (except maybe for those gifted in psychoanalysis?) to know very many of the causes of our any of our actions. We can, however, hope to come to learn which sorts of activites we undertake to our profit and which to our detriment, adjust ourselves in some Pavlovian way, so that we may start to act more in accordance with what we have learned. But the goal of 'improvement' is in there, of course, as are countless philosophical conundrums. Anyhow, when confronted with such issues, I have to admit that I sometimes prefer to take Joni Mitchell's advice and "Never mind the questions there's no answers to." Again, thanks. Best, Walto This however does not mean that one must > make a choice with an idea of `control', this being basically where we > are at, the inclination to listen to and studying the Dhamma can arise > and increase naturally in comparison to interest in other things, > particularly other teachings and philosophies. > > Sure, as worldlings, there will be many more moments of plain > attachment, though the one accompanying `wrong view' must necessarily > become less and less. Overall the unwholesome intentions will be much > more, and these can't be any good, however what does also arise and > which then determines any progress made, are moments conditioned by some > level of understanding and driven by chanda (wish to do) to finally > count as the "real" motivating force. > > This I can't see as being applicable to the idea of `meditation', metta > or any other. In `study' the conditions arise as per the accumulated > understanding and it does not mean that moments of direct understanding > can't arise as well. Overall however, having yet to accumulate the > desired level where awareness of the characteristic of present moment > realities then comes relatively easily, that which does arise, and this > too very rarely in between moments of ignorance and other unwholesome > states, is understanding at the level of suttamaya and cintamaya panna. > Most go wrong even at this stage and is exactly why ideas about > `meditation' arise. But if in fact there is right understanding at the > intellectual level, this is firm footing in that the understanding is in > line with the way things are, namely that "dhammas arise by conditions > beyond the control of self". And this helps to steer one away from > undertaking any wrong practices which have at the root, an idea to > control realities. > > Sure, unlike the development of vipassana, samatha bhavana, and metta is > one, does at some point require better place and posture for its further > development. But this is for him who has the very keen understanding and > is ready for Jhana. The idea of better place involves being extremely > sensitive to inputs through the five senses, how these easily distract > and condition attachment. In other words, even this is "conditioned" and > can't lead to any good if it becomes an object of idealistic thinking / > wrong understanding. > > This does not mean that metta can't be developed. It can and must, but > this happens not by "wanting", including ideas about formally doing it, > but gradually as it arises naturally in daily life without any > interference by thoughts to make it arise and grow more. Furthermore I > believe, at the level of where most of us are, it is the idea about > `metta' (or "my" metta) which strikes us and which then conditions the > `wanting' to have it. In contrast I believe that those who do have the > required metta and are ready to experience the deep concentration with > this as subject, they think more in terms of being `without > unwholesomeness'. > > And this it seems, is where the attention must be even for us. In fact > if at all there has been any awareness of tendencies to unwholesomeness > in daily life, one thinks in terms of things happening at this level. > Any interest in developing metta etc. can only realistically be had with > reference to how much or little it arises in daily life. Most people in > disregarding the reality of daily life, happily jump to ideas about > developing metta (even to Jhana), in the confines of their own room or > at a retreat, and don't seem to be satisfied with the prospect of > developing any level of wholesomeness, little by little based on the > reality of their own accumulations. It seems like `denial' at work. > > I know that this is not what you are doing. But still, there is an > element of being unrealistic…it seems. > > I know this post is long and soon you will find out that this is quite > characteristic of me. ;-) > > Metta, > > Sukin > #85026 From: "Phil" Date: Fri Apr 25, 2008 8:49 am Subject: Re: A question for Han about the way Dhamma is taught to householders in Asia philofillet Hi Han (p.s to Nina and Scott and Larry) > Han: > There are two points: > (1) the way Dhamma is taught to householders in Asia > (2) what I am doing. Thank you kindly for your response to my question, Han. I am off on an early summer vacation next week and will read your post and reflect during that time. If there are any questions, I'll be back to you. Metta, Phil p.s thanks also Nina and Scott and Larry. Back to you later. #85027 From: mlnease@... Date: Fri Apr 25, 2008 11:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Metta, Ch 2, no 2. m_nease Hi Walto, I think your conversation with Sukin is a separate one from ours, so I'll leave that to the two of you. In brief, I don't read the point of the Dhammapada verse as being 'that one can be derailed by study'. The younger brother's problem, as I see it, isn't too much study, it's too little understanding. Mistaking erudition for understanding is no doubt always a danger, but I'm unaware of any suggestion in the Pa.li canon (as opposed to some Mahayana texts e.g.) that the two are by any means mutually exclusive, or that the former is in any way an obstacle to the latter. Not sure how far you'd like to carry this so I'll leave it at that for now. mike #85030 From: "Walter Horn" Date: Fri Apr 25, 2008 10:30 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Metta, Ch 2, no 2. walterhorn Hi, Mike. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, mlnease@... wrote: > > In brief, I don't read the point of the Dhammapada verse as > being 'that one can be derailed by study'. The younger > brother's problem, as I see it, isn't too much study, it's > too little understanding. Well, sure, but isn't there the suggestion there that this lack of understanding is largely a result of too much time spent in studying texts rather than doing something else? Otherwise, why not focus simply on the ignorance and not repeatedly mentioning the useless scholarship? Here is the relvant part of the story again: ***************************************************************** One of them learned the Tipitaka and was very proficient in reciting and preaching the sacred texts. He taught five hundred bhikkhus and became the instructor of eighteen groups of bhikkhus. The other bhikkhu striving diligently and ardently in the course of Insight Meditation attained arahatship together with Analytical Insight. On one occasion, when the second bhikkhu came to pay homage to the Buddha, at the Jetavana monastery, the two bhikkhus met, The master of the Tipitaka did not realize that the other had already become an arahat. He looked down on the other, thinking that this old bhikkhu knew very little of the sacred texts, not even one out of the five Nikayas or one out of the three Pitakas. So he thought of putting questions to the other, and thus embarass him. The Buddha knew about his unkind intention and he also knew that as a result of giving trouble to such a noble disciple of his, the learned bhikkhu would be reborn in a lower world. So, out of compassion, the Buddha visited the two bhikkhus to prevent the scholar from questioning the other bhikkhu. The Buddha himself did the questioning. He put questions on jhanas and maggas to the master of the Tipitaka; but he could not answer them because he had not practised what he had taught. The other bhikkhu, having practised the Dhamma and having attained arahatship, could answer all the questions. The Buddha praised the one who practised the Dhamma (i.e., a vipassaka), but not a single word of praise was spoken for the learned scholar(i.e., a ganthika). The resident disciples could not understand why the Buddha had words of praise for the old bhikkhu and not for their learned teacher. So, the Buddha explained the matter to them. The scholar who knows a great deal but does not practise in accordance with the Dhamma is like a cowherd, who looks after the cows for wages, while the one who practises in accordance with the Dhamma is like the owner who enjoys the five kinds of produce of the cows.* Thus, the scholar enjoys only the services rendered to him by his pupils but not the benefits of Magga-phala. The other bhikkhu, though he knows little and recites only a little of the sacred texts, having clearly comprehended the essence of the Dhamma and having practised diligently and strenuously, is an 'anudhammacari'**, who has eradicated passion, ill will and ignorance. His mind being totally freed from moral delilements and from all attachments to this world as well as to the next, he truly shares the benefits of Magga-phala. ************************************* Best, Walto #85031 From: "colette" Date: Fri Apr 25, 2008 10:32 am Subject: Re: Why is "there are no beings" part of wrong view? ksheri3 Hi Jon, That clarifies it: your age, being elder, and your calcification of your bones and your muslces ability to flex. This includes your mind's ability to flex. That appears to be a good pin set so that bowlers can come along and knock the pins down in the middle class way. Calcium makes bones rather brittle and subject to breakage doesn't it? > > the point of synethesia is that the brain or mind actually cognizes > > things using more than a single sense i.e. eye consciousness can and > > is also used by blind persons that have nevere had sight or sound > > waves reverberating against the body making them a tactile > > consciousness and not simply the ear consciousness. I am showing, > > here, that our focus and obsession with identifying each of the eight > > consciousnesses is misleading or Miss Leading and inevitably leads > > down the path of WRONG VIEW. > > To take the second example you give above ("sound waves reverberating > against the body making them a tactile consciousness and not simply > the ear consciousness"), this as you correctly say is an experience by > body-consciousness, i.e. of hardness/softness, etc. > colette: STOP RIGHT THERE. So, you admit the the "conciousness" is manufactured or manfiested by several other "consciousnesses". Now we get into the "initial contact" of the consciousnesses which construct the FORM to the NAME in the ALAYA-VIJNANA. Now we're into a new game, no? Well, isn't it true that the Theravadans require that only their given list of consciousnesses be recognized, and that the Alaya-Vijnana is in no terms worthy of the magnioificents of the power of the Theravadan monks' grasp and hold on to the conscious through the limitation of consciousness? "I guess I'm talkin' 'bout love", Trampled Under Foot by Led Zepplin Lets further your analysis of my RE-TURNING OF THE WHEEL WHETHER THOSE IN THEIR DRUG INDUCED COMOTOSE ENJOY, LIKE IT OR NOT. Are you telling me that turning the wheel is a bad thing, while we see in countless WEstern cultures that bingo, that roulette, that any spinning wheel is a good and desirous thing <.....>? You seem to say that the Alaya-Vijnana is only good enough for you and that you are not a Theravadan holding the tenants <.....>? What are you trying to sell me from your cushy position in Hong Kong? ----------------------------- > Now we think of the hardness that is experienced as being the "sound > waves" of the sound that is being heard at the same time. colette: so it's true that you intend on relying on your tired old foundation as a means of subordinating the next group of "believers" or followers of the Buddhist precepts? <....> You got me way off today. I gotta go. toodles, colette But in fact > there is no "sound" in the tactile experience, just as there is no > hardness in the audible object being experienced through the ear- door. <....> #85032 From: "lbarnolda" Date: Fri Apr 25, 2008 11:00 pm Subject: Bhavanga chitta lbarnolda Dear friends How can we explain Bhavanga chitta With metta Bernard #85033 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Apr 26, 2008 4:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhavanga chitta sarahprocter... Dear Bernard, Welcome to DSG! --- lbarnolda wrote: > Dear friends > How can we explain Bhavanga chitta ... S: It's the citta which arises when there is no experience through any of the sense-doors or the mind-door, such as in deep-sleep. Without the bhavanga cittas, there would not be the continuity of cittas, on and on. The last citta of this life (cuti-citta) is a bhavanga citta, followed by the first citta of next life (patisandhi citta), another bhavanga citta. Sometimes it's said, 'there is nothing, then there is something, then there is nothing again'. In fact, when it seems like nothing, there are bhavanga cittas. Perhaps you could say a little more about your interest in bhavanga cittas before I say more. Also, do introduce yourself if you feel inclined to do so. Where do you live, for example/ Metta, Sarah ========== #85034 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Apr 26, 2008 4:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Han's questions in Bangkok sarahprocter... Dear Han, --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > It does not matter that it > takes long and I wish especially that you do not worry about your > questions and issues. ... S: I agree that we should just ask what's on our mind and not be too concerned about whether our questions are appropriate or not. I'm always very glad to work with you to raise any of your issues as I learn a lot from them all and the responses. If we all kept silent, not raising current issues, there'd be no discussions at the Foundation or here. Metta, Sarah ====== #85035 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Apr 26, 2008 4:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Metta, Ch 2, no 2. sarahprocter... Hi Sukin & all, I liked the way you put the following: --- Sukinder wrote: >Sukin: > Sure, unlike the development of vipassana, samatha bhavana, and metta is > one, does at some point require better place and posture for its further > development. But this is for him who has the very keen understanding and > is ready for Jhana. The idea of better place involves being extremely > sensitive to inputs through the five senses, how these easily distract > and condition attachment. In other words, even this is “conditioned” and > can’t lead to any good if it becomes an object of idealistic thinking / > wrong understanding. > > This does not mean that metta can’t be developed. It can and must, but > this happens not by “wanting”, including ideas about formally doing it, > but gradually as it arises naturally in daily life without any > interference by thoughts to make it arise and grow more. .... S: Just as I see it... Metta, Sarah ======== #85036 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Apr 26, 2008 4:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Han's questions in Bangkok sarahprocter... Dear Han, --- han tun wrote: >N: Who knows what the next object > will be and for which type of citta it will be object condition? > > Han: I agree completely with your above statement. What I was driving > at, at that time, was the importance of the sense objects that enter our > sense doors all the time throughout our waking hours. They are the > conditions for the arising of kusala cittas and akusala cittas. .... S: Actually, it's the accumulated tendencies by way of pakatupanissaya paccaya (natural decisive condition) which determine the arising of kusala or akusala cittas. .... >Anyway, > I had admitted that while I was obsessed with the importance of the > objects, I had overlooked the basics. I then quoted SN 35.98 Samvara > sutta, where one bhikkhu was declining away from wholesome states, and > another bhikkhu was not declining away from wholesome states, while both > were observing the same object. It all depends on the mind of the > beholder, whether he is looking at the objects with sati sampaja~n~na or > not. .... S: Exactly! Well said:-) Metta, Sarah ========= #85037 From: han tun Date: Sat Apr 26, 2008 5:00 am Subject: Re: Han's questions in Bangkok hantun1 Dear Sarah, If my participation at the Foundation, and the issues that I raised do not cause any problem with the regular participants at the Foundation, I will be very happy to continue working together with you in the preparation and presentation of various topics of mutual interest. You are my mentor, and I will be most happy to see you again in August 2008. Respectfully, Han #85038 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Apr 26, 2008 5:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Questions about the classifications of citta sarahprocter... Hi William, Thx for your interesting introduction (which I may get back to separately). Perhaps we could stick with William so as not to confuse you with our other Alex? I'm glad to see you interest in Abhidhamma. --- "William\\Alex" wrote: > On a Buddhist forum I visit, a Theravada monk there created several > charts of the cittas to aid with memorization, saying that there is a > nine-fold classification of cittas: > > Ja-tibhedanaya (by class) > Bhu-mibhedanaya (by realm) > Sobhan.abhedanaya (by beauty) > Lokabhedanaya (by mundaneness) > Hetubhedanaya (by root) > Jha-nabhedanaya (by concentration) > Vedana-bhedanaya (by feeling) > Sampayogabhedanaya (by association) > San.kha-rabhedanaya (by prompting) > > I've been trying to re-create his chart, partially because I found some > inconsistencies (to double-check his work), but also for my own sake, to > see that I can figure it out. > > I've been using the Abhidhammattha Sangaha here, as a guide: > http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/abhisgho/abhis00.htm .... S: Sounds like quite a project! .... > > Some of the characteristics aren't implicitly mentioned, but rather, I > had to infer them from analysis, such as for instance the idea that all > of the formless and supramundane cittas are sobhana (beautiful), > obviously. .... S: Yes. .... > I have just a little bit of information missing. > > My questions, so you could help me fill in the gaps: > #1. What is the textual origin of the nine-fold classification (where is > it in Abhidhamma) and where could I find more information about this? ... S: I'm not aware of this 9-fold classification either, but these are terms used in the classification of cittas. As you've said, most the terms and categories can be found in Ab.Sangaha. (If you do ever get CMA, it also includes many tables). Perhaps it's the bhikkhu's listing? Let me give my suggested answers to the other qus: ... > #2. Of the asobhana kamabhumi cittas, which are sasankharika (prompted) > and which are asankharika (unprompted)? .... S: The akusala cittas which can be either. These arise during the javana process. ... > #3. Of the asobhana kamabhumi cittas, which are sampayutta (associated) > and which are vippayutta (disassociated)? What are they associated or > disassociated with? .... S: Again, the akusala cittas. The lobha-mula-cittas are associated or disassociated with ditthi (wrong view). This means ditthi either arises or doesn't with the cittas rooted in attachment. The dosa-mula-cittas are 'pa.tighasampayutta.m'. This means they are associated with aversion. The final two moha-mula-cittas are either 'vicikicchaasampayuttam' or 'uddhaccasampayuttam'. This means they are either associated/accompanied by doubt or just restlessness. .... > #4. Of the rupabhumi cittas, the arupabhumi cittas, and lokutarrabhumi > cittas, which are asankharika (prompted) and which are asankharika > (unprompted)? .... S: The terms don't apply to these cittas.There's no question of 'prompting' or weakness of the cittas. (They do apply to other cittas in the development of samatha or vipassana and to the kiriya cittas of the arahant). .... > #5. Of the rupabhumi cittas, the arupabhumi cittas, and lokutarrabhumi > cittas, which are sampayutta (associated) and which are vippayutta > (disassociated)? What are they associated or disassociated with? ... S: They are all associated with wisdom (~naa.nasampayuttam). Here, nana refers to panna (wisdom). As they are all associated in this way, I don't believe the term 'associated' is used in the definitions. .... > > About that first question (and perhaps some of the others), I sent a > message to the monk a couple days ago, but no response. When and if he > responds, I'll let you know. ... S: Thanks - will look forward to anything more you add. Have you read Nina's book 'Abhidhamma in Daily Life'? You'd also find it very helpful. It's on-line. Metta, Sarah ===== #85039 From: "connie" Date: Sat Apr 26, 2008 6:06 am Subject: Perfections Corner (134) nichiconn Dear Friends, chapter two continues: Do we wish for a boon that will be a condition for kusala to become more steadfast, just as in the case of Akitti? What he just asked was not sufficient yet. The following boon that the ascetic Akitti wished for shows again the meaning of kusala to the degree of a perfection. We read that Akitti said: " 'Sakka, the lord of all devas has offered me a boon. Lands, goods and gold, cows, horses, slaves and relatives decay and pass away. May I not have such unsatisfactoriness.' " The loss of possessions is akusala vipaaka, the result of akusala kamma that has been performed by oneself. There will not be such loss if one does not commit akusala kamma. We read that Akitti asked as a boon: " 'May there be not any akusala kamma that could cause such loss.' Sakka said, 'Kassapa, what else do you wish?' The ascetic Akitti said, 'Please give me this boon: may I not see or hear a fool nor be in his company, and may I not like to converse with him.' Sakka asked, 'What is the reason Kassapa, that you do not like fools nor wish to see them?' " If we wish to develop the perfection of renunciation we should consider this passage. If we associate with fools we cannot develop renunciation. The perfections are interrelated and from the beginning we should consider all of them. We read: "The ascetic Akitti said, 'Fools advise to do what is improper, they are likely to be engaged with improper activities *1; it is difficult to advise them to perform good deeds. When someone speaks to them in a wholesome way, hoping that they will become righteous, they retort with anger. Fools do not know the rules of right conduct (vinaya). It is beneficial not to see fools.' *1 The Commentary explains that they do not induce others to have confidence (in kusala), to develop siila and pa~n~naa, but that they induce others to what is improper. Sakka asked: 'Kassapa, what else do you wish for?' The ascetic Akitti said: 'Sakka King of the Devas, if you like to give me a boon, I would ask you the following boon: people should see wise men, they should listen to them, seek their company and cherish conversations with them.' " Sakka questioned Akitti so that he would give a clear explanation for the benefit of those who wish to have precise understanding and who study the Dhamma. We read: "Sakka asked Akitti, 'Kassapa, please explain the reason why you like to associate with the wise, why you wish to see the wise?' The ascetic Akitti said, 'The wise advise to do what is proper, they are not engaged with improper activities. It is easy to encourage the wise. They do not retort well-spoken words with anger. They know well right conduct. It is good to associate with the wise.' .. to be continued, connie #85040 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Apr 26, 2008 6:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the present moment ... ? .. Jhana requires panna! - II jonoabb Hi James Replying now on the question of "the importance of jhana for wisdom". >> As regards the question of "the importance of jhana for wisdom", >> which you mention above, there are of course plenty of texts >> that describe the attainment of enlightenment in circumstances >> where that enlightenment was preceded by jhana. But these texts >> do not state or point to jhana as a prerequisite for >> insight/enlightenment in all cases, and I know of no texts that do. >> > > James: What?? The Buddha's very first sermon states the necessity > of jhana for insight/enlightenment. You know, the Noble Eightfold > Path? > Thanks for clarifying this. You are referring to the description of samma-samadhi of the NEP in terms of the 4 jhanas. The factors of the NEP are just that: the factors that constitute the moment of path consciousness. The samadhi of the path consciousness is described as it is because the path consciousness is considered to be a type of jhana consciousness. As you will appreciate, this is not the same as saying that the attainment of the NEP requires the prior development of jhana. Here is how it is explained by Bhikkhu Bodhi, based on his reading of the commentarial material, in CMA (Ch I, Guide to #30, 31): "[F]or bare insight meditator and jhana meditator alike, all path and fruition cittas are considered types of jhana consciousness. They are so considered because they occur in the mode of closely contemplating their object with full absorption, like the mundane jhanas, and because they possess the jhana factors with an intensity corresponding to their counterparts in the mundane jhanas." Jon #85041 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Apr 26, 2008 6:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bangkok seminars jonoabb Dear Ven Pannabahulo Thanks very much for your kind remarks. I'm pleased that you found the discussions useful (as I think everyone there did). I must say it is quite remarkable how you have been able to listen to and consider a way of understanding the teachings that is quite different from the way you have understood them for so many years (for many people that would be impossible). I'm sorry to hear about your hospitalisation. I hope your health is improving. Respectfully Jon pannabahulo wrote: > My dear Dhamma friends, > > I am sorry for my delay in replying.Tomorrow I will go into hospital > for a few days as the doctors seem to feel that I am in need of some > rest. When I return I will write up a report giving my personal > experiences of the seminars. > I just want to say now that those 4 days were the most rewarding and > valuable learning experience I have ever had. All my last areas of > resistance were demolished and I saw clearly the wisdom of Ajan > Sujin's teaching.That IS the Lord Buddha's Dhamma. > ... > More anon... I promise. > With metta, blessings and missing you all, > > Pannabahulo Bhikkhu > #85042 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Apr 26, 2008 7:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bangkok seminars jonoabb Hi James (and Ven. P) > Hi Ven. P, > > ... > >> The extreme disappoinment in returning to these temples and >> monasteies where Dhamma has been replaced by customs, traditions >> and superstitions is really saddening. This is leading me >> through a heavy period of 'Soul searching'(Even though I don't >> have a soul)the outcome of which - at the moment - is highly >> uncertain. >> > > James: Again, I don't see this as a time for you to be making life > changing decisions. Additionally, rather than judging all of > those "customs, traditions, and superstitions" you find in the Thai > temples, you should be focusing on your own mind and your own > development. Because if you think that there are less "customs, > traditions, and superstitions" outside of the Thai temples in > the "real world", think again. It is the same thing in different > forms. Please, don't let the influence of K. Sujin turn you against > or away from the Sangha. > I agree with your caution to the venerable about the wisdom of making life-changing decisions in haste. That of course is good common sense for anyone, any time. However, as regards the matter of finding oneself living among people who are following "customs, traditions, and superstitions" rather than the teachings, I sympathise with the venerable. It is one thing to be surrounded by such people as a lay-person, because a life of good sila (five precepts) and of association with good dhamma friends is still possible. But both these things are much more difficult to achieve if one is a monk whose immediate fellow monks are not ardent followers of the teachings. Jon #85043 From: mlnease@... Date: Sat Apr 26, 2008 11:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Metta, Ch 2, no 2. m_nease Hi Walto, > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, mlnease@... > wrote: > > > In brief, I don't read the point of the Dhammapada verse > > as being 'that one can be derailed by study'. The > > younger brother's problem, as I see it, isn't too much > > study, it's too little understanding. > > Well, sure, but isn't there the suggestion there that this > lack of understanding is largely a result of too much > time spent in studying texts rather than doing something > else? By 'something else', I assume you mean 'insight meditation'. That is clearly the suggestion of the author of the comments accompanying the verse. > Otherwise, why not focus simply on the ignorance > and not repeatedly mentioning the useless scholarship? All of the tip.tika shares the common goal of the eradication of ignorance (by insight, not "insight meditation"). This particular verse, in my opinion, refers specifically to recitation vs. insight (not 'insight meditation', which I believe is a modern concept). Recitation was commonly believed (still is, in some religions) to have magical effects. Maybe someone with access to the ancient Dhammapada commentary could check this. Then the Buddha spoke in verse as follows : Verse 19 : Though he recites much the Sacred Texts (Tipitaka), but is negligent and does not practise according to the Dhamma, like a cowherd who counts the cattle of others, he has no share in the benefits of the life of a bhikkhu (i.e., Magga-phala). Verse 20 : Though he recites only a little of the Sacred Texts (Tipitaka), but practises according to the Dhamma, eradicating passion, ill will and ignorance, clearly comprehending the Dhamma, with his mind freed from moral defilements and no longer clinging to this world or to the next, he shares the benefits of the life of a bhikkhu (i.e., Magga-phala). To reduce 'practises according to the Dhamma' to 'practices "insight meditation"' is a major mistake as I see it. Not trying to convince you Walto, just clarifying my opinion on these points. There have been years of arguments here about whether or not 'Dhamma practice' can be reduced to 'meditation'. I hope I've made my position clear but really don't want to re-engage in an old debate. Best wishes and thanks for the good discussion. mike #85044 From: "Walter Horn" Date: Sat Apr 26, 2008 3:52 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Metta, Ch 2, no 2. walterhorn Hi, Mike. > By 'something else', I assume you mean 'insight meditation'. I just meant something other than studying texts. That story seems to be down on that particular activity--it's admittedly unclear on what the preferred work is or ought to be. > > To reduce 'practises according to the Dhamma' to 'practices > "insight meditation"' is a major mistake as I see it. I'm not taking that position. I really don't have any position on that issue at all. There have been years of arguments here about whether or not > 'Dhamma practice' can be reduced to 'meditation'. I hope > I've made my position clear but really don't want to > re-engage in an old debate. Sorry for bringing back bad memories. I'm non-partisan, I promise. All I've said about meditation here (and even in my book)n is that it's valuable sometimes for some things (remember, I compared it to counting to 10, which I guess is pretty pedestrian). If there's anybody posting on this list who's not in a position to argue about what constitutes "Dhamma practice", it's me! I note only that there's a tremendous amount of textual study going on here and one of the texts posted at least SEEMS to be saying (to this dilettante) that the Buddha wasn't so thrilled with textual study as a way of learning Dhamma. Best, Walto #85045 From: "Walter Horn" Date: Sat Apr 26, 2008 3:58 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Metta, Ch 2, no 2. walterhorn Mike, Oh, and (as I mentioned before), it seems kind of paradoxical to me that any mastery of Dhamma that's NOT based on scholarship could be demonstrated by answers to a pop quiz, rather than on one's behavior (i.e., tranquility, kindness, right speech, etc.). Thus, the whole matter is pretty confusing to me. Best, W #85046 From: han tun Date: Sat Apr 26, 2008 4:07 pm Subject: Re: Han's questions in Bangkok hantun1 Dear Sarah, > > Han: What I was driving at, at that time, was the importance of the sense objects that enter our sense doors all the time throughout our waking hours. They are the conditions for the arising of kusala cittas and akusala cittas. > Sarah: Actually, it's the accumulated tendencies by way of pakatupanissaya paccaya (natural decisive condition) which determine the arising of kusala or akusala cittas. Han: Right. I am glad you mentioned pakatuupanissaya paccaya (natural decisive support condition). It is one of the paccayas which I am most interested. I read in A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma: Quote: [Natural decisive support (pakatuupanissaya paccaya) is a wide relation that includes as the conditioning states all past mental or material phenomena that become strongly efficacious for the arising, at a subsequent time, of the conditioned states, which are subsequent cittas and cetasikas. For example, prior lust may be a natural decisive support condition for the volitions of killing, stealing, sexual misconduct, etc.; prior faith for the volitions of giving alms, undertaking precepts, and practicing meditation; the gaining of health for happiness and energy, the onset of sickness for sorrow and torpor, etc.] End Quote. It says – the onset of sickness. My sickness which required hospitalization, for which I suffered a great deal, might have been conditioned by my previous akusala through natural decisive support condition! Thank you, Sarah. Respectfully, Han #85047 From: "William\\Alex" Date: Sat Apr 26, 2008 1:14 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Questions about the classifications of citta individual36 I've seen Nina's book before and look at it, occasionally. I would prefer something more like an "Idiot's Guide to Abhidhamma" which avoids Pali terms as much as possible, referencing them instead in a glossary or foot-notes. This would make it more readable and more easily communicated to others once it's learned. Even now, when we are discussing Abhidhamma, we are resorting to Pali terms. Your response helped me fill in some of the gaps, but I still have some gaps in information, partially because I wasn't specific enough, I think. #1. Of the 12 rupa-bhumi akusala cittas, you said they can be either prompted or unprompted. I know this is true for the first 10 akusala cittas (those cittas associated with the three unwholesome roots), but of the last 2 akusala cittas, there is only one citta associated with doubt and one citta associated with restlessness. Are these prompted or unprompted? More specifically, is the akusala citta associated with doubt prompted or unprompted? And is the akusala citta associated with restlessness prompted or unprompted? #2. Of the rupa-bhumi vipaka cittas and the rupa-bhumi kiriya cittas, are these prompted or umprompted, or does the term not apply? #3. Of the rupa-bhumi vipaka cittas and the rupa-bhumi kiriya cittas, are these associated with anything or does the idea of "association" not apply? William sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi William, ... > > My questions, so you could help me fill in the gaps: > > #1. What is the textual origin of the nine-fold classification (where is > > it in Abhidhamma) and where could I find more information about this? > ... > S: I'm not aware of this 9-fold classification either, but these are terms > used in the classification of cittas. As you've said, most the terms and > categories can be found in Ab.Sangaha. (If you do ever get CMA, it also > includes many tables). Perhaps it's the bhikkhu's listing? Let me give my > suggested answers to the other qus: > ... > > #2. Of the asobhana kamabhumi cittas, which are sasankharika (prompted) > > and which are asankharika (unprompted)? > .... > S: The akusala cittas which can be either. These arise during the javana > process. > ... > > #3. Of the asobhana kamabhumi cittas, which are sampayutta (associated) > > and which are vippayutta (disassociated)? What are they associated or > > disassociated with? > .... > S: Again, the akusala cittas. The lobha-mula-cittas are associated or > disassociated with ditthi (wrong view). This means ditthi either arises or > doesn't with the cittas rooted in attachment. The dosa-mula-cittas are > 'pa.tighasampayutta.m'. This means they are associated with aversion. The > final two moha-mula-cittas are either 'vicikicchaasampayuttam' or > 'uddhaccasampayuttam'. This means they are either associated/accompanied > by doubt or just restlessness. > .... #85048 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Apr 26, 2008 4:48 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Metta, Ch 2, no 2. scottduncan2 Dear Walto, Regarding: W: "...I note only that there's a tremendous amount of textual study going on here..." Scott: If this surprises you, reconsider the aims of the list: "A discussion forum for anyone interested in understanding the Buddha's teachings as found in all three baskets of the Tipitaka, the original record of the Buddha's word in the Theravada tradition, and as further elucidated in the ancient commentaries of that tradition." Sincerely, Scott. #85049 From: "connie" Date: Sat Apr 26, 2008 6:30 pm Subject: Re: Metta, Ch 2, no 2. nichiconn Dear mike, Walto, m: All of the tip.tika shares the common goal of the eradication of ignorance (by insight, not "insight meditation"). This particular verse, in my opinion, refers specifically to recitation vs. insight (not 'insight meditation', which I believe is a modern concept). Recitation was commonly believed (still is, in some religions) to have magical effects. Maybe someone with access to the ancient Dhammapada commentary could check this. Then the Buddha spoke in verse as follows : Verse 19 : Though he recites much the Sacred Texts (Tipitaka), but is negligent and does not practise according to the Dhamma, like a cowherd who counts the cattle of others, he has no share in the benefits of the life of a bhikkhu (i.e., Magga-phala). Verse 20 : Though he recites only a little of the Sacred Texts (Tipitaka), but practises according to the Dhamma, eradicating passion, ill will and ignorance, clearly comprehending the Dhamma, with his mind freed from moral defilements and no longer clinging to this world or to the next, he shares the benefits of the life of a bhikkhu (i.e., Magga-phala). c: "Texts" being memorized rather written at the time, of course. Basically, the storyline in Burlingame's "Buddhist Legends (Dhp. Cy.)" is about the same as the one we read earlier, but there's quite a difference in the verses: << 19. Though he utter much that is sensible, if the heedless man be not a doer of the word. He is like a cowherd counting the cows of others, and has no part in the Religious Life. 20. Though he utter little that is sensible, if a man live according to the Law, If he forsake lust and hatred and delusion, if he have right knowledge, if his heart is truly free, If he cling to naught in this world or in that which is to come, such a man has a share in the Religious Life. >> Just my opinion, but I think it's not so much to do with recitation/memorization as the 'faults of a monastary' such as being a teacher, etc. - and pride - that make the heedless cowherd... somehow, it reminds me of the soupspoon. Also just my opinionated guess that Burlingame's verses would more accurately reflect the pali. peace, connie #85050 From: mlnease@... Date: Sat Apr 26, 2008 7:47 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Metta, Ch 2, no 2. m_nease Hi Walto, > Oh, and (as I mentioned before), it seems kind of > paradoxical to me that any mastery of Dhamma that's NOT > based on scholarship could be demonstrated by answers to > a pop quiz, rather than on one's behavior (i.e., > tranquility, kindness, right speech, etc.). The quiz, as I see it, was a way of protecting the younger brother from appallingly bad kamma while demonstrating the priceless virtue of (profound) insight. To the extent that they're observable, tranquility, kindness, right speech and so on can be observed (internally or externally) with or without understanding regardless of the observer having ever heard (and understood) the Dhamma. As such they're the best 'the world' (as opposed to 'the Buddhadhamma') has to offer. Without pa~n~naa, understanding (right view, in this context as I see it) they still have nothing at all to do with the four noble truths, as I understand it. mike #85051 From: "connie" Date: Sat Apr 26, 2008 6:55 pm Subject: Re: Metta, Ch 2, no 2. nichiconn Dear Walto, W: Oh, and (as I mentioned before), it seems kind of paradoxical to me that any mastery of Dhamma that's NOT based on scholarship could be demonstrated by answers to a pop quiz, rather than on one's behavior (i.e., tranquility, kindness, right speech, etc.) c: And then there's the arahat who, because of many hundreds of lifetimes long habit, continued to address his fellow monks in what they took to be an abusive manner and terms, as though they were outcastes. Or the old saying about not judging a book by it's cover - the Dhammapada verses would be about it not being the antelope hide or matted locks or mere outer appearance, including behaviors such as following the precepts without any real understanding, that would make one a monk or learned. Assuming the ariyans have all 'gone along the same ancient path', still untrod by the rest of us, I'd expect them all to have similar descriptions/answers to the pop quiz. peace, connie "Reverend Sirs," said the layman, "it will be difficult for me to see you, for I am weak; rehearse me but a single Sutta." "Which Sutta would you like to hear, lay brother?" "The Satipatthana Sutta, common to all the Buddhas." Accordingly they began to rehearse the Sutta, beginning with the words, "There is this one Way, monks, this one Path which leads to the Salvation of living beings." -Buddhist Legends, vol.1, p.228 #85052 From: "connie" Date: Sat Apr 26, 2008 6:59 pm Subject: Re: Metta, Ch 2, no 2. nichiconn Dear Walto, A more apt quote to end my last post: << "Brahman, I do not call a man a monk merely because he receives alms. For a man who adopts and practices all the forms is not therefore a monk. But he that weighs well all the Aggregates of Being and acts accordingly, he is a monk indeed." >> Buddhist Legends - vol. 3, p.145 peace, connie #85053 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Apr 26, 2008 7:35 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Bangkok seminars buddhatrue Hi Jon and (Ven. P), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > It is one thing to be surrounded by such people as a lay-person, because > a life of good sila (five precepts) and of association with good dhamma > friends is still possible. > > But both these things are much more difficult to achieve if one is a > monk whose immediate fellow monks are not ardent followers of the teachings. > What would you know about it? The followers of KS aren't ardent followers of the Buddha, they are ardent followers of KS. Metta, James #85054 From: "connie" Date: Sat Apr 26, 2008 7:42 pm Subject: Re: An introduction. nichiconn Dear William, W: If the same information can be found for free instead, I'd prefer to get it that way. c: You might be pleased to know that you can download free copies of "Buddhist Psychological Ethics" (Caroline Rhys-Davids' translation of the Abhidhamma's "Dhammasangani") and vol. 1 (of 3) of Pe Maung Tin's "Path of Purity" (Visuddhimagga) from the Internet Archive: http://www.archive.org/index.php I haven't checked Google's Book offerings lately, but there might be some things of interest to you there as well. peace, connie #85055 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Apr 26, 2008 8:41 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: the present moment ... ? .. Jhana requires panna! - II buddhatrue Hi Jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Thanks for clarifying this. You are referring to the description of > samma-samadhi of the NEP in terms of the 4 jhanas. > > The factors of the NEP are just that: the factors that constitute the > moment of path consciousness. The samadhi of the path consciousness is > described as it is because the path consciousness is considered to be a > type of jhana consciousness. As you will appreciate, this is not the > same as saying that the attainment of the NEP requires the prior > development of jhana. James: To quote from the Vism: XXII, 33: Herein, the fulfilment of states sharing in enlightenment is the fulfilledness of those states partaking in enlightenment. For they are the following thirty-seven states: the Four Foundations of Mindfulness, the Four Right Endeavours, the Four Roads to Power, the Five Faculties, the Five Powers, the Seven Enlightenment Factors, and the Noble Eightfold Path. And they are called 'partaking of enlightenment' because they take part of the Noble Eightfold Path, which is called 'Enlightenment' in the sense of enlightening, and they 'take the part' of that because they are helpful. XXII, 39. So there are these thirty-seven states partaking of enlightenment. Now in the prior stage when mundane insight is occurring, they are found in a plurality of consciousnesses as follows: the Foundations of Mindfulness consisting in contemplating the body....And at the time when, on seeing an unprofitable state arisen in someone else, which has not yet arisen in his own person, he strives for its non-arising thus 'I shall not behave as he has done in whom this is now arisen, and so this will not arise in me', then he has the first right endeavor; when, seeing something unprofitable in his own behavior, he strives to abandon it, then he has the second; when he strives to arouse jhana or insight so far unarisen in this person, he has the third; and when he arouses again and again what has already arisen so that it shall not diminish, he has the fourth. And at the time of arounsing a profitable state with zeal as the motive force, there is the road consisting in zeal, [and so on with the remaining three roads to power.] And at the time of abstaining from wrong speech there is right speech, [and so on with abstaining from wrong action and wrong livelihood.] At he time arising of [any one of] these four kinds of [path] knowledge (Stream Entry, Once-Return, Non-Return, Arahant), then [all these states] are found in a single consciousness. In the moment of fruition the thirty three excepting the Four Right Endeavours are found. James: From this description in the Vism., the thirty seven states partaking of enlightenment are of a mundane nature (occuring before enlightenment) and of a supermundane nature (occuring at the time of enlightenment). It is incorrect to say that the Noble Eightfold Path is only of a supermundane nature (occuring only at the time of enlightenment) when the tradition of Theravada, as recorded by Buddhaghosa, states that the Noble Eightfold Path is both mundane and supermundane. Metta, James #85056 From: Bernard Arnolda Date: Sat Apr 26, 2008 10:20 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhavanga chitta lbarnolda Dear Sarah, Thank you for the answer you have sent me. The answer you have given me has made me to ask you the second question like this. When the sense doors dosent have any object put for cognizeing what is the state fo the mind at this stage. What are the mental factors that is activated here or is it nothing. If it is nothing is it like Nirodhasamapatthi or what. To introduce myself I would like to say that I am from Sri Lanka. I really try to learn and teach Abidhamma here in Kandy. The book that I really follow to do so is the Comprehensive Manual Of Abidhamma by Bikku Bodhi. Since it is not easy to find Abidhamma teachers here I taught I would get some advise from the Dhamma Group, this is how I became intersted in this web site. Thank you all With Mettha Bernard sarah abbott wrote: Dear Bernard, Welcome to DSG! --- lbarnolda wrote: > Dear friends > How can we explain Bhavanga chitta ... S: It's the citta which arises when there is no experience through any of the sense-doors or the mind-door, such as in deep-sleep. Without the bhavanga cittas, there would not be the continuity of cittas, on and on. The last citta of this life (cuti-citta) is a bhavanga citta, followed by the first citta of next life (patisandhi citta), another bhavanga citta. Sometimes it's said, 'there is nothing, then there is something, then there is nothing again'. In fact, when it seems like nothing, there are bhavanga cittas. <....> #85057 From: "colette" Date: Sat Apr 26, 2008 11:18 pm Subject: Re: An introduction. ksheri3 Hi Connie (and William), Thank you for the info. and addresses of free manuscripts. Caroline Rhys-Davids happens to be a reputable figure in the Buddhist community for translating and distributing quality material, so it looks promising. I'd need a little time to research the material distributed by Pe Maung Tin since the Visuddhimagga is an important text. Concerning the general question put forth by William I'd like the say: "caviat emptor" (let the buyer beware) Sorry if my spelling of a dead language is incorrect. I never was good at latin and those stuffy types in the Western "ceremonial magic" crowd tend to rely heavily upon their exclusionary powers of applying latin where ever and when ever they can so as to mask their speach. My career in the study of esoteric sciences was begun by reading books so I'm a bit predjudiced. In fact I recently had the unbelievable luck to hold the book "Wild Awakening" for about 6 months from the Chicago Library and I can tell you that book material, although may be costly, is the only way to go. Publishers have a code THEY MUST ADHERE TO therefore some of the "sorting process" has been accomplished eventhough each publisher has their own agenda and business operating plan/statement. I am as poor as poor can be so when I purchased books at THE OCCULT BOOKSTORE, et al, in Chicago, 1986-2001, I did so knowing that I would get different >flavors of the same topic. for instance I picked up a book written by Kenneth Grant from Scoob Publishing because it was a hardback version and a mentor, at that time, without hesitation said "put that book down, you don't want to read that". This activated a character flaw of mine where I immediately and instictively lached onto the book due to the rebuke from a status quo member and adherent. I found, although not that familiar with the author's objectives, that mixed into the smegma, flem, of the text, was some astoundingly accurate and viable applications. As I stated above, concerning the sorting process: not only does each text from a publisher require the acid test of being judged in the light of the buyers values, standards, ethics, et al, but also each author concerning a topic or concept needs, requires, the same process. Which is to say that in the Western esoteric traditions Kenneth Grant is viewed as an "outlier" and not beneath the "standard normal curve", or status quo, therefore his material is frowned upon by the status quo without thought(s). Here, we are dealing with fundamental Buddhism and where best to get the best teachings on the basic fundamentals in Buddhism than the Therevadan tradition. But part of the Therevadan doctrine is the absolute discrimination and exclusion of any other buddhist doctrine that contradicts their process, I mean teachings. I AM IN TOTAL AGREEMENT that there is no potential for "fruition" without a good stable foundation, see Kobe Japan and the problems they faced when their section of earth moved and they lamented over the fact that they built their city on a landfill that would liquify upon a change in the support system. I could go into Masonry and it's compliment Free Masonry, however, I see no application for enlightenment here concerning that "TANGENT". With that said I am in total agreement that the Therevadan School stands as the "gatekeepers" for Buddhist aspirants. <....>I have no problems with the gatekeepers, Therevadans, applying their doctrine to the discemination of information to those that "need to know". This is very similar to organized religion in the Western traditions such as the Muslims or the Jews or even the Catholics, however, the control of information can become an obsession which automatically turns into delusions, hallucinations. Not only do we, YEA WE, get stuck with aspirants that delusion and hallucinate but we gotta deal with a gatekeeper that delusions and hallucinates -- something's wrong there if my work load doubles where I am greatful for those monks that have been honoring my request to learn the LION'S ROAR TECHNIQUE. What all this boils down to is that this stuff from the internet may be free and it may be accessable BUT IS IT WORTH THE TROUBLE since there isn't many ways that you can verify it's authenticity and it's applicability? I suggest that what you acquire and read from the net you first and foremost "CROSS-REFERENCE", establish a foundation of believability and COGNITION, before you go off planting poisonous seeds in your mind. I wonder if there is a Bardo that has inticements from depentant deities? Pardon me, but I practice a little differnetly and my peers here know it, and the Bardo's are not part of the Therevadan tradition, however I cannot think of any better way to show the samadhi or equivelance between the "divine" and the earthly, the equivelance between that which is thought and that which is experienced, other than to raise the doctrines of Padmosambaba, spelling far from correct, the TIBETAN BOOK OF THE DEAD. Now you Southerners and Theravadans don't appreciate this manuscipt at all so I understand that you "cover it up". Now if you've kept with me through this unbelievable diatribe and psuedo-business statement, William, I urge you to not only buy books but to use the resource of the internet and it's unbelievable generostiy of issueing free material. In that way can you best educate yourself and become more of a greater part of the sangha. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > > Dear William, > > W: If the same information can be found for free instead, I'd prefer to get it that way. > > c: You might be pleased to know that you can download free copies of "Buddhist Psychological Ethics" (Caroline Rhys-Davids' translation of the Abhidhamma's "Dhammasangani") and vol. 1 (of 3) of Pe Maung Tin's "Path of Purity" (Visuddhimagga) from the Internet Archive: http://www.archive.org/index.php > > I haven't checked Google's Book offerings lately, but there might be some things of interest to you there as well. <...> #85058 From: "sîlânanda" Date: Sun Apr 27, 2008 12:37 am Subject: Download the Whole......Accesstoinsight.org......website silananda_t Dear Dhammafarers, Republish online, Distribute on CD, Store in Library or Read Offline the whole Accesstoinsight.org website... *accesstoinsight.org * The current Offline Edition is 2008-04-23-20 (Wednesday 23 Apr 2008) "Know the Dhamma, Make the Dhamma Known." - this is the highest blessing. mahakaruna, ~upâsaka sîlânanda #85059 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Apr 27, 2008 3:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Metta, Ch 2, no 2. sarahprocter... Hi Mike (Walto & Connie), Thanks for the useful and courteous discussion between you. --- mlnease@... wrote: >This particular verse, in my opinion, refers > specifically to recitation vs. insight (not 'insight > meditation', which I believe is a modern concept). > Recitation was commonly believed (still is, in some > religions) to have magical effects. Maybe someone with > access to the ancient Dhammapada commentary could check > this. .... S: The translation you give below is the same as that given by Daw Mya Tin - it must be his. I think it seems pretty good. He gives a note on the second verse (below) to "sammappajaano suvimuttacitto" ('clearly comprehending the Dhamma, his mind freed from moral defilements'): "suvimuttacitto: Mind freed from moral defilements; this has been achieved through perfect practice and clear comprehension of the Dhamma [S: 'dhammassa hoti anudhammacaari'). Also: "sa bhaagavaa saama~n~nassa hoti: lit. shares the benefits of the life of a sama.na (a bhikkhu). According to the Commentary, in this context, it means "Shares the benefits of Magga-phala." " ... > Then the Buddha spoke in verse as follows : > Verse 19 : Though he recites much the Sacred Texts > (Tipitaka), but is > negligent and does not practise according to the Dhamma, > like a cowherd > who counts the cattle of others, he has no share in the > benefits of the > life of a bhikkhu (i.e., Magga-phala). > > Verse 20 : Though he recites only a little of the Sacred > Texts > (Tipitaka), but practises according to the Dhamma, > eradicating passion, > ill will and ignorance, clearly comprehending the Dhamma, > with his mind > freed from moral defilements and no longer clinging to this > world or to > the next, he shares the benefits of the life of a bhikkhu > (i.e., > Magga-phala). > > To reduce 'practises according to the Dhamma' to 'practices > "insight meditation"' is a major mistake as I see it. ... S: Yes, there's a lot in a 'word'. In the Burlingame translation of the commentary story, it says the two men (before becoming bhikkhus) listened to "a detailed description of the Duty of Meditation and of the Duty of Study". The older one (after ordaining) was instructed in "the Duty of Meditation as far as Arahatship", he attained Arahatship with the "Supernatural Faculties". Here, 'Duty of Meditation' is a (poor) translation of 'vipassanaadhura.m'. 'Supernatural Faculties' refer to the patisambhidas. The other bhikkhu determined the fulfill "the Duty of Study" (ganthachura.m) and it says he "acquired by degrees the Tipi.taka, the Word of the Buddha (anukkamena tepit.taka.m buddhavacana.m), and wherever he went, preached the Law and intoned it." **** S: As we know (and as you point out), developing right understanding of present realities is not about reciting and memorizing texts, but of understanding what is real now. In Thailand recently, we discussed how the understanding of kamma, for example, could only develop through the direct understanding of seeing (and other dhammas) at this moment, not through the knowledge of stories about kamma. As I wrote before, in AN,4s, 186 ‘Approach’ (Ummagga), we read about the meaning of what ‘mastery' refers to. “...Well, monk, I have taught Sutta, Geyya, Veyyaakara.na ,Gaathaa, Udaana, Itivuttaka, Jaataka, Abbhutadhamma and Vedalla. Now if a monk *UNDERSTANDS THE MEANING* and (text of) dhamma, - *EVEN IF IT BE BUT A STANZA OF FOUR LINES*, - and be set on living in accordance with Dhamma, he may well be called ‘one *WIDELY LEARNED*, *WHO KNOWS DHAMMA BY HEART*” As you say, this isn't to suggest the fault is in the texts or knowledge of them, but in the wise vs unwise attention to what is read or heard. Metta, Sarah p.s The Pali to the commentary can be found here: http://www.tipitaka.org/ I'm sure there is a lot that is useful at the very end after the Pali verses. You and Connie may be able to translate it:-) ========== ======= #85060 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Apr 27, 2008 3:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Han's questions in Bangkok sarahprocter... Dear Han, --- han tun wrote: >....the onset of sickness for sorrow and torpor, > etc.] End Quote. > > It says – the onset of sickness. My sickness which required > hospitalization, for which I suffered a great deal, might have been > conditioned by my previous akusala through natural decisive support > condition! ... S: The main cause of the sickness, the painful bodily feelings, is aksuala kamma in the past. However, kamma cannot act and bring its result without the support of natural decisive support condition as you know. That's about all we can say usefully, I think. Metta, Sarah ======= #85061 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Apr 27, 2008 3:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bangkok seminars jonoabb Hi James >> It is one thing to be surrounded by such people as a lay-person, >> because a life of good sila (five precepts) and of association with good dhamma friends is still possible. >> >> But both these things are much more difficult to achieve if one is a monk whose immediate fellow monks are not ardent followers of the teachings. >> > > What would you know about it? The followers of KS aren't ardent > followers of the Buddha, they are ardent followers of KS. > This attempt to divert attention from the issue by changing the subject (and making things personal) won't work!! The question is whether a monk who lives in an environment where "the Dhamma has been replaced by customs, traditions and superstitions" can properly observe the Patimoka and find support in the development of the path. We all know of the sutta passage where the Buddha explained to Ananda that "Companionship is the whole of the holy life". As I see it, this means that if one's fellow monks are not truly followers of the teachings, the holy life loses much of its meaning. Jon #85062 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Apr 27, 2008 3:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] report on Bangkok and Kaeng Krajan jonoabb Hi KenH > J: > The word 'dana' refers to a reality, namely, a particular kind > of kusala citta. > ------------------- > > That's exactly what I was trying to say at Kaeng Krajan. But others > seemed to look at me as if I was speaking a foreign language! Where > were when I needed you? :-) > I think the way it came across at the time was that you were asking about the conventional act of dana, rather than the paramattha dhamma that is dana. > J: > Well, the citta that is dana does exist for only one moment of > consciousness. I think your problem concerns the conventional > term 'act of dana'. An act of dana, like any other conventional act, > requires a multitude of moments for its completion. That is the > conventional-language way of referring to this particular dhamma. > ------------------------------ > > Yes, and I would have said there was no need to ask, "Is there > really - out there in the external world - a group of [temperature > produced] rupas known as "a gift" that is picked up by a group of > [kamma produced] rupas known as "a person (the giver)" and > transferred to another group of kamma-produced rupas known as "the > recipient?" > > I would have said, "No, there is no need to either assert or deny the > existence of such concepts: all we need to know are the dhammas that > arise at any given moment." (Or, more specifically still, "all we > need to know is any dhamma that might have become the object of > consciousness now.") > > Talk of dana's requiring multiple cittas (or a series of related > cittas) is not helpful. There are never multiple cittas, and there is > no series of related cittas! > Right. But in order to understand the paramattha dhamma that is dana (as distinct from other cittas accompanied by exactly the same set of cetasikas) we need to have the conventional context. And the same applies to other forms of kusala (such as metta, equanimity, etc). Jon #85063 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Apr 27, 2008 4:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Questions about the classifications of citta sarahprocter... Hi William, --- "William\\Alex" wrote: >Even now, when we are > discussing Abhidhamma, we are resorting to Pali terms. ... S: I'm just following your lead on this:-) ... > > Your response helped me fill in some of the gaps, but I still have some > gaps in information, partially because I wasn't specific enough, I > think. > > #1. Of the 12 rupa-bhumi akusala cittas, you said they can be either > prompted or unprompted. .... S: Some confusion here. We were discussing the kamavacara (kaamaavacara)cittas (i.e the sense-sphere consciousnesses), not the rupa-bhumi or rupavacara cittas. The akusala cittas are kamavacara cittas. As we both agree, the akusala kamavacara cittas can usually be said to be prompted or unprompted. .... >I know this is true for the first 10 akusala > cittas (those cittas associated with the three unwholesome roots), but > of the last 2 akusala cittas, there is only one citta associated with > doubt and one citta associated with restlessness. Are these prompted or > unprompted? More specifically, is the akusala citta associated with > doubt prompted or unprompted? And is the akusala citta associated with > restlessness prompted or unprompted? ... S: Good question! The classification of prompted and unprompted is not used for these last 2 akusala cittas. The commentaries say something along the lines of the terms not being applicable because they are not strong enough to be considered as unprompted and yet they are never 'prompted'. (I can refer you to more detail from the Vism sub-comy if you are really interested). ... > > #2. Of the rupa-bhumi vipaka cittas and the rupa-bhumi kiriya cittas, > are these prompted or umprompted, or does the term not apply? ... S: Again, I'm confused as to why you are now referring to rupa-bhumi. If you mean kamavacara vipaka cittas (sense-sphere result cittas) and kamavacara kiriya cittas (sense-sphere inoperative cittas), the term does not apply to the root-less vipaka cittas or the root-less kiriya cittas. However, the rooted vipaka and the kiriya cittas of the arahant can be prompted or unprompted etc. In effect, this means that the 7 akusala vipaka cittas (which are root-less)do not have these terms applied to them, nor do the 8 kusala vipaka cittas which are root-less. However, the 8 rooted kusala vipaka cittas do. Similarly, the 3 root-less kiriya cittas don't have the terms applied, but the 8 kiriya rooted cittas of the arahant do. [I hope I've got all this correct]. .... > > #3. Of the rupa-bhumi vipaka cittas and the rupa-bhumi kiriya cittas, > are these associated with anything or does the idea of "association" not > apply? .... S: Again, referring to kamavacara rooted vipaka cittas and the kiriya cittas of the arahant, these are associated/dis-associated with wisdom. How are we doing? Thanks for the challenge:-). Metta, Sarah p.s Pls put the name of the person you're addressing at the top of your replies! Also, we encourage everyone to trim posts! ====================== #85064 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Apr 27, 2008 4:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Han's questions in Bangkok sarahprocter... Dear Han, --- han tun wrote: > If my participation at the Foundation, and the issues that I raised do > not cause any problem with the regular participants at the Foundation, I > will be very happy to continue working together with you in the > preparation and presentation of various topics of mutual interest. ... S: The regulars always encourage and welcome visitors and fresh topics. Actually, you are now a semi-regular yourself:-). .... > You are my mentor, and I will be most happy to see you again in August > 2008. ... S: Oh Han.....the opposite is true. In any case, I really appreciate our team-work and as I said, I particularly enjoy the sessions which you attend - always very lively, with lots of good humour:-). Metta, Sarah ======== #85065 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Apr 27, 2008 4:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Direct Knowledge and Inference are Mutually Supportive jonoabb Hi TG > The simile of stone mountain crags wearing away due to soft cloth > rubbing against it is given to show the length of time between rebirths > as a human being. > > .......................................................... > TG: You mean that when the Buddha gives an example of a cloth rubbing > against a mountain and says that it would take such and such an amount of time of > rubbing to wear it away, that this is not dealing with impermanence or > alteration or with conditional changes????? Quite frankly, its irrelevant what he > is analogizing. He IS DEMONSTRATING with his analogy -- conditional > alteration due to interaction of phenomena. ... > ................................................................ > Hang on, TG, let me get this right. You seem to be saying that the simile of stone mountain crags being worn away by a soft cloth rubbing against it, as given by the Buddha to illustrate the vast length of time between rebirths as a human being and the remoteness of chance of such rebirth, can also be taken as establishing the "continuous alteration" of dhammas (as opposed to the commentarial "momentary rise and fall"). In other word, that in addition to being a simile relating to the subject matter of the particular sutta, it is also, by inference, confirmation of a principle of "conditional alteration due to interaction of phenomena" as an underlying tenet of the Buddha's teaching on phenomena. If I've understood you correctly, then I think you're reading much too much into the passage. In answer to the specific question you have put to me, namely: "You mean that when the Buddha gives an example of a cloth rubbing against a mountain and says that it would take such and such an amount of time of rubbing to wear it away, that this is not dealing with impermanence or alteration or with conditional changes?" I would say that it has to be read in its context, namely, as illustrating a particular point relating to rebirth as a human being, and is not to be taken as a statement about the nature of the impermanence of dhammas. Will get back to you on the rest of your post later, but wanted to address this point separately. Jon #85066 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Apr 27, 2008 4:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhavanga chitta sarahprocter... Dear Bernard, --- Bernard Arnolda wrote: > Thank you for the answer you have sent me. The answer you have given > me has made me to ask you the second question like this. When the sense > doors dosent have any object put for cognizeing what is the state fo > the mind at this stage. What are the mental factors that is activated > here or is it nothing. If it is nothing is it like Nirodhasamapatthi or > what. ... S: No, it is not like in nirodhasamapatti. In nirodhasamapatti, there are no cittas arising at all - it is the temporary cessation of consciousness. In between the sense-door and mind-door processes and in deep, dream-less sleep, bhavanga cittas arise. They have their own object (which can never be known). In the human-realm, the bhavanga cittas (as you know) are kusala vipaka cittas. This means they arise with the 19 sobhana mental factors which are common to all sobhana cittas, starting with saddha and sati. They are accompanied by happy or neutral feeling. I'm not sure how much we can speculate usefully about these bhavanga cittas, however. Let me know if there's anything else, however. .... > To introduce myself I would like to say that I am from Sri Lanka. I > really try to learn and teach Abidhamma here in Kandy. The book that I > really follow to do so is the Comprehensive Manual Of Abidhamma by Bikku > Bodhi. Since it is not easy to find Abidhamma teachers here I taught I > would get some advise from the Dhamma Group, this is how I became > intersted in this web site. ... S: Thank you very much for this introduction. You're very welcome here. I'm sure you'll be able to help us!! Do you have anything to add to William's questions? Maybe you can also add any further comments or translation notes on the Dhp verses/commentary being discussed by Mike, Walto and Connie if you have time! I've spent quite a lot of time in Sri Lanka (and met Jon there). Actually, I nearly took up a scholarship at the Uni in Kandy in the 70s, but the place fell through with a change of Government. I'll look forward to your response to my comments and to any further points for discussion. Metta, Sarah ======= #85067 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Apr 27, 2008 4:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: At the Foundation on 5th April (5) sarahprocter... Dear Han, --- han tun wrote: > Thank you very much for your very comprehensive explanation about sati > and satipatthaana. I have no further question on your explanation. It is > very clear. But I have a question from another point of view. > > If you read DN 22 Maha-satipatthaana sutta, say, on the contemplation of > mind, you will find the following passage, translated by Thanissaro > Bhikkhu. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.22.0.than.html > > (C. Mind) > (1) "And how does a monk remain focused on the mind in & of itself? > There is the case where a monk, when the mind has passion, discerns that > the mind has passion. <...> <...> > (3) "In this way he remains focused internally on the mind in & of > itself, or externally on the mind in & of itself, or both internally & > externally on the mind in & of itself. <...> ... > I have numbered the paragraphs for ease of reference. > Now, my question is: > Am I right if I say that paragraph (1) and (2) involve only sati, and > satipatthaana is applicable only to paragraph (3)? .... S: I wonder why you suggest this. To my understanding, satipatthana is applicable and to be understood in all the paragraphs. The first paragraph starts with the direct awareness and understanding of the citta arising with lobha. This is satipatthana (awareness of realities, accompanied by sampajanna/panna). In Soma Thera's translation of the commentary, it says as an introduction to this section: "In this section there is no reference to supramundane truth because in the sifting of things thoroughly to see their transient, pain-laden and soulless nature only the mundane things are handled, and so there is in this matter of penetrative knowledge of things no bringing together of mundane and supramundane things." .... > Or, is it that it is not applicable at all which paragraph is sati and > which paragraph is satipatthaana? ... S: In the context of this sutta, satipatthana is being referred to throughout, as I see it. This is sati accompanied by panna which understands the various dhammas as included in the four foundations. All 3 meanings of satipatthana are applicable here. Please let me know where you have a different understanding. It's useful to consider further. Metta, Sarah > P.S. My wife is slowly recovering at home. She will report to the > Cardiologist for follow-up on 24 April. For me, the urinary infection > and the gout are still pestering me. Although not life-threatening they > are a nuisance to me. I am still taking medicines. ... S: I hope your wife makes a full recovery and trust you are following the diet I gave you:-). I'm relieved to know that you always have at least one younger family member staying and helping you both. ================= #85068 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Apr 27, 2008 5:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: report on Bangkok and Kaeng Krajan sarahprocter... Hi Ken H (& Larry), --- kenhowardau wrote: > L: > and also dana is a cetasika that is included in the alobha > category. > ----------------- > > Yes. Alobha arises with every kusala citta. According to my > understanding (and it could be very wrong) whenever there is > abstinence from wrong-doing the citta is called sila, whenever there > is right understanding the citta is called bhavana, and at all other > kusala moments the citta is called dana. But that could be an over- > simplification. ... S: Abstinence from wrong-doing (virati cetasika) arising with right understanding of the path, is the sila of the path. However, there are other kinds of sila too which don't involve abstinence from wrong-doing. So, I'd be more inclined to say that when there is right understanding, there is bhavana, when there is generosity, there is dana, and other moments of kusala are sila. However, even this is probably an over-simplification. Sila is a very big topic and even includes kusala vs akusala sila:). (Lots in U.P. under 'sila' and lots of detail in the 1st chapters of Vism on the different kinds of sila.) Larry or Connie may (or may not!) like to say more.... Metta, Sarah ========= #85069 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Apr 27, 2008 5:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bangkok seminars sarahprocter... Hi James, --- buddhatrue wrote: > James: I am sure that they are a very nice group of people. I also > met Jon and Sarah in person and they were very nice. They even > helped me exchange money when the banks were closed (and I think Jon > got short changed!). But, personality does not equal wisdom. .... S: I agree with this last comment and friends may be helpful sometimes and not others or one may find later one doesn't like the personalities after all:-). .... >You could also go to a meeting of the Hare Krishnas and find a very nice > group of people. That doesn't mean you should be in the airport > with a tamborine passing out flowers! I advise you to proceed with > caution and don't confuse personality with the Dhamma. .... S: lol! I think it's a good point. Metta, Sarah ======= #85070 From: "connie" Date: Sun Apr 27, 2008 6:09 am Subject: Perfections Corner (135) nichiconn Dear Friends, continuing Akitti's story: Sakka asked, 'What else do you wish for?' The ascetic Akitti said, 'When the night is spent and the sun, the ruler of the world, rises, may divine food and holy mendicants appear, and may the food that I will offer not become exhausted. May I not repent my deed but give with a pure mind. This is a boon I wish for.' Sakka asked, 'What else do you wish for?' The ascetic Akitti said, 'Sakka, King of the Devas, if you want to give me a boon, may you not visit me again.' " This is the last boon the ascetic Akitti asked for. This shows that he was not heedless with regard to the akusala he had accumulated. Sakka was most surprised because everybody wishes to see sons and daughters of devas, divine beings. Some people develop kusala to the degree of calm in order to see devas. But the ascetic Akitti wished that Sakka would not visit him again. We read: "Sakka said, 'Many people wish to see, because of their righteous conduct, sons and daughters of devas. What is the danger in seeing me?' The ascetic Akitti answered, 'I may transgress my vow of asceticism when I see the appearance of devas, beings who are full of glory and delightful to the senses. This is the danger in seeing you.' Thereupon Sakka said, 'This is good, revered one, from now on I shall not visit you again' and he departed. The Bodhisatta dwelt in the same place during his whole life. After he passed away he was reborn in the world of the Brahma. The reverend Anuruddha was Sakka, the Buddha was the ascetic Akitti." The ascetic Akitti was heedful, he did not want to see what could be a danger to him. We can learn a lesson from this story, we should consider the perfections with regard to our own life. We have a long way to go in order to attain the realization of the four noble Truths and the eradication of defilements. If we do not understand what the perfections really are, we do not have firm determination to study the Dhamma in order to have right understanding, to apply the Dhamma and to practise it with sincerity, which is the perfection of truthfulness. We should study and practise without being disturbed by the worldly conditions of gain, loss, honour, dishonour, praise, blame, happiness and misery. If we are unshakable by these worldly conditions, we are beginning to develop the perfections so that they become more firmly established. .. to be continued, connie #85071 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Apr 27, 2008 6:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Metta, Ch 2, no 2. sarahprocter... Hi Walto, I enjoy reading all your considered comments to everyone. --- Walter Horn wrote: > Hi, Sarah and James. <....> > For example, we are now having instruction > on 'metta' because it, too, may be misconstrued, applied to the > wrong subjects, etc. But that, presumably, is no reason not to > attempt loving kindness when we can and in our own imperfect ways. .... S: As you suggest, any time is a good time for metta, however 'imperfect' it may be. However, when thinking in terms of 'attempting loving kindness', is there an inherent idea of 'Me' having metta, do you think? ... > In any case, my point was not that people should attempt to obtain > sammadhi or any particular sort of exquisite state or understanding > prior to working on kindness. On the contrary, I said that many > people may simply not be able to exhibit kindness unless they have > becalmed themselves first. Just as someone may not be able to > receive the benefits of sleep without first counting sheep, another > may not be able to feel good wishes toward a driver who has cut him > off in traffic without having practiced recitation or meditation > first. ... S: Can we say that there will be the following of such habits anyway. For example, if one finds it useful to count sheep to get to sleep, then such a way of thinking is conditioned. Surely there can be the development of awareness, understanding whilst following such habits? So if a driver counts to ten and only then is able to show any kindness, it's also conditioned that way and the various kinds of dhammas, such as the anger, the thinking, the visible object and so on can all be known for what they are - conditioned dhammas not belonging to a self. ... <...> >I think it's important to remember that for most > practitioners, meditation isn't a scholarly activity: it doesn't > require perfect knowledge of this or that concept or refined > skills. It is simply a way to compose oneself. If more can be > obtained from it, wonderful, but in my view serenity alone is > nothing to be scoffed at. .... S: I agree that when there is true serenity or calmness, as there is with all moments of genuine kindness, generosity or right understanding, for example, it's not "to be scoffed at". I also think we're adept at trying to make things pleasant for ourselves and a lot of this pleasantness is really attachment to our pleasant feelings masquerading as serenity. However, I think that only any wise attention and understanding can know at any moment when there is attachment, such as at moments of enjoying the sunset and when there is genuine serenity, such as at moments of consideration for others or right understanding of a dhamma with detachment. .... > *FWIW, much of my book, "The Perennial Solution Center," is about > such controversies and the value of meditation). ... S: Sounds interesting! I wondered if you were a writer from your style:-). Thanks again for your reply. Metta, Sarah ========= #85072 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Apr 27, 2008 6:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: report on Bangkok and Kaeng Krajan sarahprocter... Hi Mike, --- mlnease@... wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > > S: What arises doesn't necessarily *appear* as the object > > of cittas at this moment or commonly during the day. > > > > I think phassa is a good example. We know it arises with > > every single citta, but is its characteristic experienced > > now? Of course, only panna can tell. > > This seems to me to suggest that only dhammas that are the > objects of cognitive processes 'appear'--is this correct? .... S: Yes. Hence the difference between the use of 'appear' and 'arise', though it's not always consistent:-). Sometimes 'appear' is used to refer to dhammas as object of awareness only. Basically, if a characteristic doesn't appear, it can't be known. You asked in another message why phassa doesn't 'appear'. I think the only answer is 'conditions'. Some objects appear more readily or more often in the beginning. I'm sure the characteristic of phassa appears to developed insight. It's like right concentration....I've heard it said that any concentration that appears now is bound to be wrong (aksuala) concentration. The characteristic of right concentration only appears at stages of vipassana nana which is why it is said to be 'yoked' to panna at such times. Then there are the various gross rupas experienced through the sense doors. These 'appear', but do the subtle rupas 'appear'? If there's no understanding of the gross rupas, there's next to no chance of the subtle rupas ever being known. Enough of a ramble. Let me know if you have anything more to add. It's a real treat to read your posts, Mike. Like old times!! Metta, Sarah ======= #85073 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Apr 27, 2008 6:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Direct knowledge and Inference are Mutually Supportive sarahprocter... Dear Scott, Last post for today.... --- Scott Duncan wrote: > S: "...If the citta is rooted in panna, it means panna is arising with > it. However, I think the point I was stressing before is that these > are still vipaka cittas, *result* cittas, so it's not the same as the > panna arising with kusala cittas which accumulates and conditions > kusala kamma." > > Scott: These would occur during the javana sequence? ... S: Yes, the kusala and akusala cittas always arise with the javana cittas. ..... > > S: "How are we doing?" > > Scott: Good, Sarah. I'm glad to clarify this stuff. To recap: even > though there might be no root at rebirth, pa~n~naa can still be > developed in that particular existence, although doesn't have the > strength to allow jhaana or the path to arise. ... S: Oooh, I don't think I said that. I think we were discussing patisandhi with two roots (as opposed to 3). In that case I wouldn't rule out the possibility of panna arising, but not to the degree of jhana or path. Do we know now whether there are 2 or 3 roots with the bhavanga cittas? As for no roots at rebirth, we know this is the case in very weak kusala vipaka and there is definite handicap of some kind from that first moment. So, I wouldn't go so far as to say panna can still be developed. I haven't seen any indication about this. Let me know if you do, but I don't think you will:-). Metta, Sarah ====== #85074 From: "Walter Horn" Date: Sun Apr 27, 2008 7:36 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Metta, Ch 2, no 2. walterhorn Dear Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > going on here..." > > Scott: If this surprises you, reconsider the aims of the list: No, it doesn't 'surprise' me. I'm not sure why you thought it might. W #85075 From: "Walter Horn" Date: Sun Apr 27, 2008 7:41 am Subject: Re: Metta, Ch 2, no 2. walterhorn Dear Connie, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: << > "Brahman, I do not call a man a monk merely because he receives alms. For a man who adopts and practices all the forms is not therefore a monk. But he that weighs well all the Aggregates of Being and acts accordingly, he is a monk indeed." > >> > > Buddhist Legends - vol. 3, p.145 I like that. It's helpful, too--by suggesting that weighing and understanding (as well as acting in accordance with such understanding) can be divorced from a certain type of scholarly activity. Thanks, Walto #85076 From: "Walter Horn" Date: Sun Apr 27, 2008 7:48 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Metta, Ch 2, no 2. walterhorn Dear Sarah, Thanks for your interesting comments. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > .... > S: As you suggest, any time is a good time for metta, however 'imperfect' > it may be. However, when thinking in terms of 'attempting loving > kindness', is there an inherent idea of 'Me' having metta, do you think? Yes, as I indicated once we start getting into those issues, I have trouble keeping all the balls in the air. ... > S: Can we say that there will be the following of such habits anyway. For > example, if one finds it useful to count sheep to get to sleep, then such > a way of thinking is conditioned. Surely there can be the development of > awareness, understanding whilst following such habits? > > So if a driver counts to ten and only then is able to show any kindness, > it's also conditioned that way and the various kinds of dhammas, such as > the anger, the thinking, the visible object and so on can all be known for > what they are - conditioned dhammas not belonging to a self. Again, discussions regarding what does and does not constitute self are hard for me. > .... > S: I agree that when there is true serenity or calmness, as there is with > all moments of genuine kindness, generosity or right understanding, for > example, it's not "to be scoffed at". I also think we're adept at trying > to make things pleasant for ourselves and a lot of this pleasantness is > really attachment to our pleasant feelings masquerading as serenity. > However, I think that only any wise attention and understanding can know > at any moment when there is attachment, such as at moments of enjoying the > sunset and when there is genuine serenity, such as at moments of > consideration for others or right understanding of a dhamma with > detachment. Yes, that distinction is really good, I think. Best. Walto #85077 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Apr 27, 2008 7:51 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Metta, Ch 2, no 2. scottduncan2 Dear Walto, Thanks for the reply: W: "No, it doesn't 'surprise' me. I'm not sure why you thought it might." Scott: Oh, good. Misunderstood you, man. Sorry about that. Sincerely, Scott. #85078 From: "Walter Horn" Date: Sun Apr 27, 2008 7:54 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Metta, Ch 2, no 2. walterhorn Dear Mike. Again, very helpful comments. Thanks. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, mlnease@... wrote: > > The quiz, as I see it, was a way of protecting the younger > brother from appallingly bad kamma while demonstrating the > priceless virtue of (profound) insight. You're right, it does say that, and I missed it. > To the extent that they're observable, tranquility, > kindness, right speech and so on can be observed (internally > or externally) with or without understanding regardless of > the observer having ever heard (and understood) the Dhamma. > As such they're the best 'the world' (as opposed to 'the > Buddhadhamma') has to offer. Without pa~n~naa, > understanding > (right view, in this context as I see it) they still have > nothing at all > to do with the four noble truths, as I understand it. You're probably right. I have to admit, that's a disturbing thought for me. My kindness (even on those rare occasions when I actually seem to be exhibiting it) isn't "as good" as someone else's--someone who understands more than I do. Again, I'm not saying it's not so, just that it's a tough nut to accept. All best, Walto #85079 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Apr 27, 2008 4:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] report on Bangkok and Kaeng Krajan upasaka_howard Hi, Jon (and Ken) - In a message dated 4/27/2008 6:44:05 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: There are never multiple cittas, and there is > no series of related cittas! > Right. =============================== Hey, Jon! What do you mean "right"!? Commentarial psychology certainly deals with streams of related cittas, including streams of up to 17 cittas all with "the same" rupa as object. I agree that there are never multiple mind states that *co-occur* in the same mind stream, but the second half of what you are agreeing to, about series of cittas, goes too far. There is but one citta at a time - no doubt about that, but Ken seems to want to freeze the world at a single citta and banish anicca from the tilkakkhana. What is true, is that no series of paramattha dhammas is other than a kind of collection of dhammas, and is not itself a paramattha dhamma. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream/ (From the Diamond Sutra) #85080 From: han tun Date: Sun Apr 27, 2008 8:25 am Subject: Re: At the Foundation on 5th April (5) hantun1 Dear Sarah, > > Han: I have numbered the paragraphs for ease of reference. Now, my question is: Am I right if I say that paragraph (1) and (2) involve only sati, and satipatthaana is applicable only to paragraph (3)? > Sarah: I wonder why you suggest this. To my understanding, satipatthana is applicable and to be understood in all the paragraphs. The first paragraph starts with the direct awareness and understanding of the citta arising with lobha. This is satipatthana (awareness of realities, accompanied by sampajanna/panna) . In Soma Thera's translation of the commentary, it says as an introduction to this section: "In this section there is no reference to supramundane truth because in the sifting of things thoroughly to see their transient, pain-laden and soulless nature only the mundane things are handled, and so there is in this matter of penetrative knowledge of things no bringing together of mundane and supramundane things." -------------------- > > Han: Or, is it that it is not applicable at all which paragraph is sati and which paragraph is satipatthaana? > Sarah: In the context of this sutta, satipatthana is being referred to throughout, as I see it. This is sati accompanied by panna which understands the various dhammas as included in the four foundations. All 3 meanings of satipatthana are applicable here. Please let me know where you have a different understanding. It's useful to consider further. ============ Han: Thank you very much for your clarification. I have noted your understanding that satipatthana is applicable and to be understood in all the paragraphs, and all 3 meanings of satipatthana are applicable throughout. I fully agree with your remarks, and I have no different understanding. Therefore, I rest my case. Respectfully, Han P.S. The Cardiologist said my wife is alright when she reported for follow-up. I am also very much better now and I follow carefully the diet you had suggested. Thank you very much. #85081 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Apr 27, 2008 8:31 am Subject: Re: Bangkok seminars buddhatrue Hi Jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Hi James > > >> It is one thing to be surrounded by such people as a lay- person, > >> because a life of good sila (five precepts) and of association with good dhamma friends is still possible. > >> > >> But both these things are much more difficult to achieve if one is a monk whose immediate fellow monks are not ardent followers of the teachings. > >> > > > > What would you know about it? The followers of KS aren't ardent > > followers of the Buddha, they are ardent followers of KS. > > > > This attempt to divert attention from the issue by changing the subject > (and making things personal) won't work!! James: I wasn't trying to divert attention. I was making a very clear point. This is very much related to KS and her view of the Dhamma. > > The question is whether a monk who lives in an environment where "the > Dhamma has been replaced by customs, traditions and superstitions" can > properly observe the Patimoka and find support in the development of the > path. > > We all know of the sutta passage where the Buddha explained to Ananda > that "Companionship is the whole of the holy life". As I see it, this > means that if one's fellow monks are not truly followers of the > teachings, the holy life loses much of its meaning. James: Look, if Ven. P is surrounded by monks who drink alcohol, steal, lie, and commit sexual misconduct, then by all means he should remove himself from that situation. But, if it is just about being around monks who bow to a Buddha statue, when KS doesn't believe in that, then you and Ven. P both need to get a grip!! > > Jon > Metta, James #85082 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sun Apr 27, 2008 5:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Direct Knowledge and Inference are Mutually Supportive TGrand458@... Hi Jon You can run but you can't hide! Though you might want stretch the imagination and use the excuse that the -- "wearing away, rubbing away, broken and scattered" -- descriptions are about (unreal?) conventional objects and not "dhammas;" which I highly reject, you can't hide into that shell regarding these descriptions from the following quote. Descriptions that back-up well the fore-mentioned ones..... "The eye is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise; forms are impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. Thus this dyad is moving and tottering, impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. “Eye-consciousness is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. The cause and condition for the arising of eye-consciousness is also impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. When, monks, eye-consciousness has arisen in dependence on a condition that is impermanent, how could it be permanent? “The meeting, the encounter, the occurrence of these three things is called eye-contact. Eye-contact too is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. The cause and condition for the arising of eye-contact is also impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. When, monks, eye-contact has arisen in dependence on a condition that is impermanent, how could it be permanent? “Contacted, monks, one feels, contacted one intends, contacted one perceives. Thus these things too are moving and tottering, impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise." (The Buddha . . . Connected Discourses of the Buddha, vol. 2, pg. 1172: Samyutta Nikaya) Sorry my friend, not a conventional object in the bunch! Sense object, sense bases, feeling, perception, intentions, consciousness...all which are -- moving and tottering, impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. It would seem to me that the practice of mindfulness would well highlight that changing conditions are due to the interaction with other conditions, and not something "self wrought through 'its own' characteristic." TG. In a message dated 4/27/2008 5:17:07 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: Hang on, TG, let me get this right. You seem to be saying that the simile of stone mountain crags being worn away by a soft cloth rubbing against it, as given by the Buddha to illustrate the vast length of time between rebirths as a human being and the remoteness of chance of such rebirth, can also be taken as establishing the "continuous alteration" of dhammas (as opposed to the commentarial "momentary rise and fall"). In other word, that in addition to being a simile relating to the subject matter of the particular sutta, it is also, by inference, confirmation of a principle of "conditional alteration due to interaction of phenomena" as an underlying tenet of the Buddha's teaching on phenomena. If I've understood you correctly, then I think you're reading much too much into the passage. In answer to the specific question you have put to me, namely: "You mean that when the Buddha gives an example of a cloth rubbing against a mountain and says that it would take such and such an amount of time of rubbing to wear it away, that this is not dealing with impermanence or alteration or with conditional changes?" I would say that it has to be read in its context, namely, as illustrating a particular point relating to rebirth as a human being, and is not to be taken as a statement about the nature of the impermanence of dhammas. Will get back to you on the rest of your post later, but wanted to address this point separately. Jon #85083 From: mlnease@... Date: Sun Apr 27, 2008 10:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Metta, Ch 2, no 2. m_nease Hi Sarah, Thanks for the detailed response. Your excerpts were much more useful than the paraphrase originally offered, I thought. Translation of the Pa.li would no doubt be a good exercise but I think I'll pass for now. Thanks Again, mike #85084 From: mlnease@... Date: Sun Apr 27, 2008 10:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: report on Bangkok and Kaeng Krajan m_nease Hi Sarah, > > > S: What arises doesn't necessarily *appear* as the > > > object of cittas at this moment or commonly during the > > > day. > > > I think phassa is a good example. We know it arises > > > with every single citta, but is its characteristic > > > experienced now? Of course, only panna can tell. > > > > This seems to me to suggest that only dhammas that are > > the objects of cognitive processes 'appear'--is this > correct? .... > S: Yes. Hence the difference between the use of 'appear' > and 'arise', though it's not always consistent:-). > Sometimes 'appear' is used to refer to dhammas as object > of awareness only. Basically, if a characteristic doesn't > appear, it can't be known. OK, got it, thanks. > You asked in another message why phassa doesn't 'appear'. > I think the only answer is 'conditions'. Some objects > appear more readily or more often in the beginning. I'm > sure the characteristic of phassa appears to developed > insight. So pretty much same as above. > It's like right concentration....I've heard it > said that any concentration that appears now is bound to > be wrong (aksuala) concentration. The characteristic of > right concentration only appears at stages of vipassana > nana which is why it is said to be 'yoked' to panna at > such times. Are you referring to a specific mental factor or conventionally? > Then there are the various gross rupas experienced through > the sense doors. These 'appear', but do the subtle rupas > 'appear'? If there's no understanding of the gross rupas, > there's next to no chance of the subtle rupas ever being > known. Sure-- > Enough of a ramble. Let me know if you have anything more > to add. > > It's a real treat to read your posts, Mike. Like old > times!! Thanks and back at ye, Sarah. mike #85085 From: "Larry" Date: Sun Apr 27, 2008 10:33 am Subject: bodily feeling in satipatthana lbidd2 Hi all, I noticed that in the Satipatthana Sutta in the feeling section, feeling is delineated as worldly feeling and spiritual feeling. There is no mention of bodily feeling. These two kinds of feeling are discussed in detail in MN137. There we see that pleasant worldly feeling is pleasant feeling that arises from acquisition of objects. Pleasant spiritual feeling is pleasant feeling that arises with insight into the 6 kinds of objects. Unpleasant worldly feeling is unpleasant feeling that arises from non-acquisition of objects. Unpleasant spiritual feeling is unpleasant feeling that arises in longing for nibbana due to insight. Neutral worldly feeling is neutral feeling that arises because of ignorance. Neutral spiritual feeling is neutral feeling that arises because of insight. Pleasant feeling is characterized as joy. Unpleasant feeling is characterized as grief. Neutral feeling is characterized as equanimity. No mention is made of bodily feeling or other kinds of mental feeling. Thought you would like to know this. Larry #85086 From: mlnease@... Date: Sun Apr 27, 2008 12:14 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Metta, Ch 2, no 2. m_nease Hi Again Walto, > Again, very helpful comments. Thanks. My pleasure and thank you too. > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, mlnease@... > wrote: > > > The quiz, as I see it, was a way of protecting the > > younger brother from appallingly bad kamma while > > demonstrating the priceless virtue of (profound) > insight. > > You're right, it does say that, and I missed it. > > > To the extent that they're observable, tranquility, > > kindness, right speech and so on can be observed > > (internally or externally) with or without understanding > > regardless of the observer having ever heard (and > > understood) the Dhamma. As such they're the best 'the > > world' (as opposed to 'the Buddhadhamma') has to offer. > > Without pa~n~naa, understanding > > (right view, in this context as I see it) they still > > have nothing at all > > to do with the four noble truths, as I understand it. > > You're probably right. I have to admit, that's a > disturbing thought for me. My kindness (even on those > rare occasions when I actually seem to be exhibiting it) > isn't "as good" as someone else's--someone who > understands more than I do. Again, I'm not saying it's > not so, just that it's a tough nut to accept. I know what you mean. If I understand it correctly, moments of wholesome volition (kusala kamma) even WITHOUT understanding are extremely rare in the course of everyday life. This is a fairly sobering (and humbling) realization for most people I think. But for me it's more than palliated by the realization--even just intellectually--that all those underlying tendencies and actual volitions, mine and others', wholesome and unwholesome, are just impersonal (anatta) factors arising and subsiding according to conditions. This, to me, is where the Dhamma really gets interesting. With any moment of understanding comes detachment, and these moments are incompatible with worry (kukucca), comparing self and others (maana) and all the other unwholesome factors including those that arise with unpleasant feeling. Of course those moments are much more likely to be unwholesome with attachment and pleasant feeling than wholesome (see 'cheating dhammas' in Useful Posts). But if understanding--beginning with hearing and considering the Dhamma with wise attention--has been cultivated, it can arise and sort out--in retrospect--which dhammas are which (to some extent). This must begin with hearing and considering the true Dhamma, as I understand it--not with concentration, tranquility, amity etc. for the reasons stated earlier. Detailed understanding of what the Buddha taught about the aggregates of attachment may seem like (and can even actually be) empty scholarship. But the Buddha spent his life after awakening talking about those things to people with the capacity to understand them. (You might want to have a look at suta-maya pa~n~naa (understanding from hearing) vs cinta maya pa~n~naa (understanding from considering) etc. in Useful Posts). A lot of detailed information for sure. But empty scholarship? Not necessarily. With wise attention it is, as I see it, not only useful but priceless information. Just more of my opinions, of course--thanks again for your patience. mike #85087 From: Bernard Arnolda Date: Sun Apr 27, 2008 9:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhavanga chitta lbarnolda Dear Sarah, Thank you verymuch for the quick reply you have sent me related with Bhawanga chittha. In dreamless sleep is it the arpana javan chitthas (or similar) that you are talking of which means that a continuation of a kriya is maintained. I will also try to put forward some ideas which I have read from other books - The object( dhamma nimittha, karma nimittha) which is taken at the disconnecting mind moment, and the connecting mind moment generates or gives birth to the same conciousness till the end of the present bawaya when there is no object taken in from the sense doors or mind door, then as you have mentioned the sobana mental factors are activated through out the bawaya is this right. Thank you very much again trying to help me in getting more and more wisdom in understanding the Dhamma. Please let me know how to go into the discussions or go into answer or share some knowledge what William has raised. With lots of Mettha Bernard. sarah abbott wrote: Dear Bernard, --- Bernard Arnolda wrote: ... In between the sense-door and mind-door processes and in deep, dream-less sleep, bhavanga cittas arise. They have their own object (which can never be known). In the human-realm, the bhavanga cittas (as you know) are kusala vipaka cittas. This means they arise with the 19 sobhana mental factors which are common to all sobhana cittas, starting with saddha and sati. They are accompanied by happy or neutral feeling. #85088 From: "William\\Alex" Date: Sun Apr 27, 2008 1:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Questions about the classifications of citta individual36 Sarah: Ah, yes, I misspoke there. You're right, it's not the Rupa-bhumi cittas, but the Kama-avacara cittas. Again, you helped me fill in some more gaps, but still some more clarification is necessary. Among the Kama-avacara cittas, you said that the idea of "prompting" does not apply to the rootless vipaka and kiriya cittas. However, you said that there are rooted vipaka and the rooted kiriya cittas of the arahant, which can be prompted or unprompted. I was a bit confused to when I saw a list of the the Kama-avacara cittas, because it said there are kusala vipaka cittas, akusala vipaka cittas, but then there are also simply "vipaka" cittas, where it wasn't specified if they are kusala or akusala. The kusala vipaka and akusala vipaka vipaka cittas were said to be rootless, their association wasn't specified, but the cittas which were simply specified as vipaka were with root and associated or disassociated with wisdom. From what I gather, these are the cittas of the Arahant you're referring to? Specifically: The Kama-avacara vipaka cittas with root, associated or disassociated with wisdom. My only other question: In the Kama-bhumi, of the rootless vipaka cittas, are these associated with anything at all or does the term not apply? William sarah abbott wrote: ... > As we both agree, the akusala kamavacara cittas can usually be said to be > prompted or unprompted. > .... > >I know this is true for the first 10 akusala > > cittas (those cittas associated with the three unwholesome roots), but > > of the last 2 akusala cittas, there is only one citta associated with > > doubt and one citta associated with restlessness. Are these prompted or > > unprompted? More specifically, is the akusala citta associated with > > doubt prompted or unprompted? And is the akusala citta associated with > > restlessness prompted or unprompted? > ... > S: Good question! The classification of prompted and unprompted is not > used for these last 2 akusala cittas. The commentaries say something along > the lines of the terms not being applicable because they are not strong > enough to be considered as unprompted and yet they are never 'prompted'. > (I can refer you to more detail from the Vism sub-comy if you are really > interested). > ... > > > > #2. Of the rupa-bhumi vipaka cittas and the rupa-bhumi kiriya cittas, > > are these prompted or umprompted, or does the term not apply? > ... > S: Again, I'm confused as to why you are now referring to rupa-bhumi. If > you mean kamavacara vipaka cittas (sense-sphere result cittas) and > kamavacara kiriya cittas (sense-sphere inoperative cittas), the term does > not apply to the root-less vipaka cittas or the root-less kiriya cittas. > However, the rooted vipaka and the kiriya cittas of the arahant can be > prompted or unprompted etc. > > In effect, this means that the 7 akusala vipaka cittas (which are > root-less)do not have these terms applied to them, nor do the 8 kusala > vipaka cittas which are root-less. However, the 8 rooted kusala vipaka > cittas do. > > Similarly, the 3 root-less kiriya cittas don't have the terms applied, but > the 8 kiriya rooted cittas of the arahant do. > > [I hope I've got all this correct]. > .... > > > > #3. Of the rupa-bhumi vipaka cittas and the rupa-bhumi kiriya cittas, > > are these associated with anything or does the idea of "association" not > > apply? > .... > S: Again, referring to kamavacara rooted vipaka cittas and the kiriya > cittas of the arahant, these are associated/dis-associated with wisdom. #85089 From: "glenjohnann" Date: Sun Apr 27, 2008 7:13 pm Subject: Re: At the Foundation on 5th April (5) glenjohnann Hello Han We have met at the Foundation a several times in the past 15 months - most recently on April 5, Nina's birthday. I arrived back in Vancouver on April 24 and have been looking through all of the posts for April. I have found your summaries of the discussions on April 5 very useful and appreciate all of the effort you put into your posts - and your attention of detail. I am happy to hear that your wife is progressing well - always good to hear that a cardiologist is happy with a patient. And good to hear that you are doing better yourself. We missed you at the discussions on April 12-15. Ann > P.S. The Cardiologist said my wife is alright when she reported for follow-up. I am also very much better now and I follow carefully the diet you had suggested. Thank you very much. #85090 From: "Leo" Date: Sun Apr 27, 2008 8:25 pm Subject: heaven and hell leoaive Hi I have seen in Sutta Pitaka that Hell is Jealous of Heaven. After some thinking I came to a conclusion, that Hell or spirits will not be jealous if you have ugly rock art. I guess the only thing can be ugly is made of rock or metal and with some industrial machinery like cranes and so on, used for delivery. Buddism on fabric is better, but I guess some ugly rock art is ok, as long as it does not harm anyone or make them to have stomach problems. The hell will not be jealous, looking at all that ugly things. What do you think? Of course forest and grass is better. Leo #85091 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Apr 27, 2008 2:41 pm Subject: Dhamma Images Updated: 4923 pictures. bhikkhu0 Friends: The Dhamma Image Gallery have been updated to 4923 items total View the Slideshows here: http://what-buddha-said.net/gallery/main.php Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest * Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka :-) .... #85092 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Apr 27, 2008 9:59 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Questions about the classifications of citta sarahprocter... Hi William, --- "William\\Alex" wrote: > Sarah: > > Ah, yes, I misspoke there. You're right, it's not the Rupa-bhumi cittas, > but the Kama-avacara cittas. Again, you helped me fill in some more > gaps, but still some more clarification is necessary. .... S: Fine and thx for the name! ... > Among the Kama-avacara cittas, you said that the idea of "prompting" > does not apply to the rootless vipaka and kiriya cittas. However, you > said that there are rooted vipaka and the rooted kiriya cittas of the > arahant, which can be prompted or unprompted. .... S: Yes. I think that instead of 'prompted' and 'unprompted' we can think in terms of 'strong' and 'weak'. .... >I was a bit confused to > when I saw a list of the the Kama-avacara cittas, because it said there > are kusala vipaka cittas, akusala vipaka cittas, but then there are also > simply "vipaka" cittas, where it wasn't specified if they are kusala or > akusala. ... S: Let's clarify a little as we go along. When we refer to vipaka cittas (of any kind), these are the results of kamma. All vipaka cittas are the results of kamavacara kusala or akusala cittas or of jhana or lokuttara cittas. .... >The kusala vipaka and akusala vipaka vipaka cittas were said to > be rootless, their association wasn't specified, .... S: Kusala and akusala vipaka cittas can be with roots or rootless. For example, seeing consciousness is an example of a kusala/akusala vipaka citta which is rootless. Bhavanga citta is an example of a kusala/akusala vipaka citta with roots. .... >but the cittas which > were simply specified as vipaka were with root and associated or > disassociated with wisdom. From what I gather, these are the cittas of > the Arahant you're referring to? ... S: No. The kiriya cittas I referred to in the Arahant are not vipaka cittas. They 'replace' kusala cittas, because no further kamma can be accumulated. They are 'inoperative'. If the vipaka cittas the text mentioned are associated/disassociated with wisdom, they must be kusala vipaka cittas because akusala vipaka cittas cannot be associated with wisdom. >Specifically: The Kama-avacara vipaka > cittas with root, associated or disassociated with wisdom. ... S: Kusala vipaka cittas .... > My only other question: In the Kama-bhumi, of the rootless vipaka > cittas, are these associated with anything at all or does the term not > apply? ... S: The term doesn't apply because they just arise with the seven universal cetasikas. They are not associated with lobha, dosa, moha, ditthi or panna. There are 8 kusala vipaka cittas which are root-less and 7 akusala vipaka cittas which are root-less. The different rootless vipaka cittas arise with different kinds of feelings accordingly, however. OK, here's a test for you. This is a summary in the Guide to $17, to CMA, ch 1. See if you can fill in the details as a way of revision! ***** CMA: >All types of consciousness experienced in the sense-sphere total fifty-four. They are classified as follows: ... By way of kind: 8 great wholesome 12 unwholesome 23 resultants: -- 7 unwholesome-resultants -- 8 rootless wholesome-resultants -- 8 great wholesome-resultants 11 functionals: -- 3 rootless functionals -- 8 great functionals .... By way of feeling: 18 with joy 32 with equanimity 2 with displeasure 1 with pleasure 1 with pain .... By way of association with knowledge and views: 16 associated 16 dissociated 22 neither .... By way of prompting: 17 unprompted 17 prompted 20 neither (= rootless and deluded)< ********** Metta, Sarah ====== #85093 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Apr 27, 2008 10:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhavanga chitta sarahprocter... Dear Bernard, --- Bernard Arnolda wrote: >In dreamless sleep is it the arpana javan chitthas > (or similar) that you are talking of which means that a continuation of > a kriya is maintained. .... S: In deep dreamless sleep, there are no mind-door processes, no javana cittas (what is 'arpana'?). The bhavanga cittas are always vipaka cittas, so no kiriya cittas either at such times. .... >I will also try to put forward some ideas which I > have read from other books - The object( dhamma nimittha, karma > nimittha) which is taken at the disconnecting mind moment, and the > connecting mind moment generates or gives birth to the same conciousness > till the end of the present bawaya when there is no object taken in from > the sense doors or mind door, .... S: To clariy, I think you are saying that the bhanvanga cittas during any given life (from the moment of birth (patisandhi) to the moment of death (cuti), are of the same kind with the same object. They arise when there is no sense-door or mind-door experience. They are conditioned by the kamma of the last javana cittas in the previous birth and are different from the bhavanga cittas of that last life. ... >then as you have mentioned the sobana > mental factors are activated through out the bawaya is this right. ... S: In the case of a happy rebirth, exactly the same set of sobhana cetasikas arise with each bhavanga citta of a given life. .... >Thank > you very much again trying to help me in getting more and more wisdom in > understanding the Dhamma. > Please let me know how to go into the discussions or go into answer or > share some knowledge what William has raised. ... S: Thank you also for helping me to reflect out loud! If you find I make any mistakes in my answers to William or you wish to clarify any points, please don't hesitate to join in. Meanwhile, please ask if there is anything further on bhanvanga cittas that needs clarifying. Metta, Sarah ======== #85094 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Apr 27, 2008 10:39 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: report on Bangkok and Kaeng Krajan kenhowardau Hi Sukin (Sarah, Nina, Lodewijk, Larry . .), Thank you all for bearing with me on this thread. It has been too much about me and my obsessions, but you have been very patient. ------------------------- <. . .> Sukin: > One point about A. Sujin's reference to "seeing now"; I and some other discussants as well, often go on about realities in a way as if the answer lies at the end of theorizing about it. A.Sujin would then simply point to the moment since this as you know, is the only `real' object of study. Perhaps because you were not involved in the same, her words had a different effect on you? -------------------------- How can we know where theorising ends and wise consideration (pariyatti) begins? I suppose that could be a topic in itself. But, as for your question: when I asked Ajahn about dana (and later about smelling-consciousness) I got the distinct impression she thought I was theorising too much. And in later conversations (with other people who attended the meetings) I was quite surprised to hear that "we shouldn't be too concerned about distinctions between concepts and realities" and "we shouldn't be too concerned about how there were billions of cittas per second." Those concerns are food and drink to me! :-) When I am walking down the street I may be thinking of the things that I see, but I must also be thinking about other things - even if very, very briefly. There would be experiences (thought-about and not- thought-about) at every sense sense-door. It seems to me there would be many cittas that experienced olfactory objects (for example) even if there was no conceptualising about the familiar ones. (In this way a significant change in the nature of olfactory objects would be quickly detected and conceptualised.) So I am back where I started, aren't I? Too much theorising and not enough listening to what you are trying to tell me! --------------------- <. . .> KH: > I have been trained to be suspicious of anything associated with me that is, at the same time, purported to be associated with the Dhamma. <. . .> Sukin: It's more that unlike me and perhaps some others, you are not lax about this point. ;-) -------------------- No, I don't think you and the others are lax, it's far more likely that I am overzealous. Sarah's response to my [above] statement was to say that the practice became 'all about me' only when there was desire for results (trying to be aware etc). That, too, was an eye-opener. We no-controllers have always been against "selecting" objects for satipatthana - not only against wanting to be aware of them. But maybe I have been taking that to an extreme. And maybe that was why I was not very interested in knowing there was - "apparently" - seeing now but not smelling. (?) As I said, thanks for your patience, but there's no use in going over and over the same ground. I am sure you have told me the answers many times. We will just have to accept that I am slow at catching on. Ken H PS: One more point: ---- Sukin: > Could we say that what "appears" besides standing in contrast to what does `not appear', can also remind us of the fact of there being at any given moment only paramattha dhammas such that a reference to one object can condition awareness of whatever other object that subsequently arises…?? ---- Yes, that sounds perfectly right to me . . . . So why are we talking about what is "most likely to appear?" Sorry! Don't answer that! :-) KH #85095 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Apr 27, 2008 11:11 pm Subject: Re: report on Bangkok and Kaeng Krajan kenhowardau Hi Jon, -------- <. . .> J: > I think the way it came across at the time was that you were asking about the conventional act of dana, rather than the paramattha dhamma that is dana. -------------------- Yes, I think it did come across that way - even though I worded my question as carefully as I could. If we are regarding dana as a reality we must be talking about something that happens in a single citta. If we are regarding it as a concept then we can talk about its happening in three-dimensional space over a over a period of time etc, etc. --------------- KH: > > Talk of dana's requiring multiple cittas (or a series of related > cittas) is not helpful. There are never multiple cittas, and there is > no series of related cittas! > J: > Right. But in order to understand the paramattha dhamma that is dana (as distinct from other cittas accompanied by exactly the same set of cetasikas) we need to have the conventional context. And the same applies to other forms of kusala (such as metta, equanimity, etc). ----------------- OK, I suppose I'll have to concede that. :-) Is panna able to know dana from sila? I suppose it must be. (?) But panna would *not* need to know the story leading up to it, would it? Instead it would directly know the dana characteristic (if there was such a thing) of the citta or cetasika it was experiencing. In case you haven't noticed; I am only guessing. :-) Ken H #85096 From: han tun Date: Mon Apr 28, 2008 12:36 am Subject: Re: At the Foundation on 5th April (5) hantun1 Dear Ann, Thank you very much for your kind note. I am glad to know that you like my posts. I am also grateful to you for your kind concern about my wife’s health and mine. At our age, the immune system is almost gone and the recovery takes a very long time. But we are better now. We also pray for the health and happiness of you and your family. I hope to see you again at the Foundation and to have more time to discuss with you. All the best, With metta and respect, Han #85097 From: han tun Date: Mon Apr 28, 2008 12:48 am Subject: Patthaana (33) hantun1 Patthana (33) Dear Friends, We are studying (6) Conascence Condition (sahajaata-paccaya). This Condition is divided into six types. We had taken up the first three types. We will now take up the fourth type. ------------------------------ The Fourth type: (4) cittacetasikaa dhammaa cittasamutthaanaanam ruupaanam sahajaata-paccayena paccayo. States, consciousness and mental factors, are related to mind-produced matter by conascence condition. Citta and cetasikas serve as 'conascence condition' for the arising of ruupas. Which ruupas? The ruupas that are produced by citta or cittaja-ruupas. Samutthana means 'caused by'. So ruupas caused by citta are also called 'citta-samutthaana-ruupas.' There are 15 cittaja-ruupas. They are: (1) pathavii = earth element (2) aapo = water element (3) tejo = heat element (4) vaayo = wind element (5) ruupa-arammana = visible form (vanna) (6) sadda-arammana = sound (sadda) (7) gandha-arammana = smell (gandha) (8) rasa-arammana = taste (rasa) (9) aahaara-ruupa = nutriment (ojaa) (10) pariccheda-ruupa = space element (aakaasa-dhaatu) (11) kaaya-vinnatti = bodily intimation (12) vaci-vinnatti = vocal intimation (13) ruupassa-lahutaa = physical lightness or buoyancy (14) ruupassa-mudutaa = physical elasticity or malleability (15) ruupassa-kammannataa = physical adaptability The cittas that produce the ruupas, and the ruupas produced by the cittas, arise at the same time. So they are sahajaata. But the ruupas produced by the cittas do not cause the arising of cittas that produce them. It is like one-way traffic. So they are not a~n~nama~n~na, and that’s why you will not find this type in the next Condition: (7) Mutuality Condition (a~n~nama~n~na-paccayo) However, please note that not all ruupas listed above are produced by citta alone. Nos. (1), (2), (3), (4), (5), (7), (8), (9), (10) are produced by all four causes, namely, kamma, citta, utu, and aahaara. Nos. (13), (14), (15) are produced by citta, utu, and aahaara. Nos. (6) is produced by citta, and utu. Only Nos. (11) and (12) are produced by citta alone. To be continued. metta, Han #85098 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Apr 28, 2008 12:50 am Subject: [dsg] Re: report on Bangkok and Kaeng Krajan kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Ken H (& Larry), > > --- kenhowardau wrote: > > > L: > and also dana is a cetasika that is included in the alobha > > category. > > ----------------- > > > > Yes. Alobha arises with every kusala citta. According to my > > understanding (and it could be very wrong) whenever there is > > abstinence from wrong-doing the citta is called sila, whenever there > > is right understanding the citta is called bhavana, and at all other > > kusala moments the citta is called dana. But that could be an over- > > simplification. > ... > S: Abstinence from wrong-doing (virati cetasika) arising with right > understanding of the path, is the sila of the path. However, there are > other kinds of sila too which don't involve abstinence from wrong- doing. > So, I'd be more inclined to say that when there is right understanding, > there is bhavana, when there is generosity, there is dana, and other > moments of kusala are sila. However, even this is probably an > over-simplification. Sila is a very big topic and even includes kusala vs > akusala sila:). (Lots in U.P. under 'sila' and lots of detail in the 1st > chapters of Vism on the different kinds of sila.) > > Larry or Connie may (or may not!) like to say more.... > > Hi Sarah, Well, I was right about one thing: my understanding "was* wrong. :-) There are sutta quotes you would know very well in which the Buddha describes his "method" (if that is the right word) as; to do good, to refrain from evil and to purify the mind. Would the Pali be 'dana, sila and bhavana' I wonder? But it doesn't matter; I take your point about there being many kinds of sila. I can imagine there is a lot about it in the texts - and I am sure it has been throughly explained here at DSG. I am currently searching Useful Posts. Leave it with me. :-) Ken H #85099 From: "pannabahulo" Date: Mon Apr 28, 2008 1:22 am Subject: to James and all good friends pannabahulo Dear James, Thank you for your e-mail in which you wrote: "Hi Ven. P, I know that I am not your favorite person but I thought I would give you some feedback anyway" James, I regard you as an enthusiastic seeker on the path of Dhamma. I respect you very much for that and admire the way you seem to continually question with a genuine desire to understand. Like me you are very direct and speak straight from your heart. My only disagreements with you were over the personal attacks on Ajan Sujin. I am sure that if you actually met and talked with Ajan Sujin you would know for yourself that she has made real progress on the path. There is a story in the texts that we can hold as a very good check on our speech and actions. I repeat this now as a self reminder as well as to help you. A young monk was on alms-round in a village when he saw an old monk in front of him. By the time the young monk had got to the edge of the village he noticed that the old monk had sat down and was drinking rice soup from out of his bowl. The young monk thought, "What a horrible sight that is. Why can't that greedy old monk wait until he gets back to his temple before he eats his food?" That is a shameful sight." That night there was a knock on the door of the young monk's kuti (hut). He opened the door and saw the old monk standing there. He immediately paid respect to the elder monk who then asked him, "How is your meditation practice going?" The young monk replied that he seemed to be stuck and could make no progress. The old monk replied, "Don't strive for anything further. This morning you criticised an arahant." The young monk immediately fell on his knees and asked the old monk for forgiveness. The latter replied that he was already forgiven and that that had been the purpose of his visit." In relating this story during an introductory talk to meditators, the Late Ven Sayadaw U Silananda pointed out that whether or not a person is an arahant is not the point. Criticising any holy person will hinder your own spiritual development. James, please take it from me that Ajan Sujin is very special. I too – as you know – completely disagreed with her for quite a time. But, having travelled and searched for teachers who are well established on the path, I can tell you that she is one of a very rare few. It was because of that that I stuck with her even though I was arguing like crazy all the way along. Now things have clicked into place. In fact your letter can give me a base to add a few comments on that; so I will use it and hope you don't mind. Saying that you are not my `favourite person' is completely wrong. You are my Dhamma brother and I wish you all the peace and wellbeing for your life. We are on the same journey – hang on in there friend. With metta, Pannabahulo Bhikkhu #85100 From: "pannabahulo" Date: Mon Apr 28, 2008 1:26 am Subject: More on the Bangkok seminars pannabahulo My dear Dhamma friends, Still alive; feeling well and refreshed. No hospital needed (they are the last places t find peace and quiet). Just took my neighbour's advice; he said "You don't rest enough," so I did. Those Bangkok seminars were incredible; so much happened that the energy use must have been very high. As I said before, they were the most rewarding Dhamma experiences of my life. I have thought so much about what happened and the issues that we discussed, but I have failed to find any specific issue that triggered the realisation that what Ajan Sujin teaches is the very essence of the Buddha's Dhamma. Now – with regard to this point - James makes the following comment: James: I am very incredulous at this sort of statement, as it sounds manic and overblown. I will eagerly read your further updates- when you are rested. I can quite understand this response; but the realisation that occurred was like pieces of a jigsaw suddenly fitting together. I have spent months reflecting on various aspects of Ajan Sujin's teaching; and have spent hours arguing - like crazy - against her position. But all the while something must have been going on, or else I wouldn't have kept going back for more. So the realisation was part of a process; not a ramdom moment of inexplicable psychosis. The one thing that does seem to stand out is a remark that Robert made to me during the lunch break of the first day. He just remarked that the unique teaching of the Buddha was that of Anatta. That, I believe, may have provided the catalyst for what followed. Some teachers say that `x' was the great insight of the Buddha. Others will say it was `y' and so on. S.N. Goenka, for example, claims that the Siddhartha Gautama became the Buddha because he re-discovered that the link between craving and sense object was Vedana. Many others will say it was because he rediscovered Satipatthana. But in the Buddha's own lifetime he was referred to as "The teacher of non-self". And it was this that singled him out from his contemporaries. Of course, once self is removed then there can only be impersonal causes or conditions. This realisation – when repeated in a two line summary – was enough to turn Sariputta from a worldling into an Ariya-Puggala. And when you remove self then it is obvious that nothing can be forced or made to happen; most importantly, wisdom cannot be made to arise. Thus the teachers of meditation systems that claim Nibbana as the ultimate goal of their practice are operating from a base of wrong views. In my previous letter I said: "It was with great joy that I cancelled a meditation course I had booked for next month" To which James replied. James: Probably more like "great relief". It appears that you are in no shape for a meditation course. Alright then, `great relief `will do equally as well. And then I went on to add: "What a tremendous sense of relief to be free of all that delusion!!" And the retort: James: Oh, I wouldn't be throwing that word "delusion" around so casually- at least not yet. What I realised in Bangkok is that what Ajan Sujin is teaching IS the practice. And that is why she is always bringing our attention back to present moment realities. But, as she says, understanding has to be developed at the intellectual level first. (Cinta Maya Panna).Only over time – a long time I feel - will that develop into full blown wisdom; and perhaps that is why Khanti is such an important perfection to develop. I remarked that every time I sat in the meeting room at The Dhamma Foundation the path to enlightenment seemed to get longer and longer. How naïve I was, some 20 or so years ago, when I truly believed that if I walked and sat enough enlightenment would surely come. I do not, and never would claim, that Ajan Sujin's path is the only correct one. Nor would I claim that all meditation is a waste of time. We are all different. But Siddartha Gautama became enlightened through wisdom. Wisdom is the faculty that needs be nurtured. And what Ajan Sujin is teaching is meditation practice; it is just of a different form. But it has been the years and years of formal, intensive, systematised meditation practices which have shown me that so much time and effort has achieved so little. The fundamental confusions and delusions – the wrong views – remain unchanged. But of course there have been changes for the better; contact with Dhamma is still there amongst the circus and the sideshows. I really meant the remark in my previous letter that: "The extreme disappointment in returning to these temples and monasteries where Dhamma has been replaced by customs, traditions and superstitions is really saddening". To which James replied: Please, don't let the influence of K. Sujin turn you against or away from the Sangha. It is wisdom that is the cause of such thinking; not Ajan Sujin. She is only interested in present moment realities. I am not against the Sangha; but it is clear that there is a big difference between institutionalised religious practices and the living Dhamma. I also remarked of those present at the Dhamma Foundation: "I can only describe as the nicest and most sincere group of people I have ever met. You are all indeed the 'Noble Friends' that the Lord Buddha encouraged us to seek out" And James made the point: James: I am sure that they are a very nice group of people. I also met Jon and Sarah in person and they were very nice. They even helped me exchange money when the banks were closed (and I think Jon got short changed!). But, personality does not equal wisdom. It is following the Lord Buddha's Dhamma that helps us to be good – or better – people. That is the litmus test that we are on the right path. As Sukin pointed out during the Bangkok seminars - which were taking place as the Thai New Year was partying all around us – "How many people are doing what we are doing now?" Finally, in response to this remark by James: You could also go to a meeting of the Hare Krishna's and find a very nice group of people. That doesn't mean you should be in the airport with a tambourine passing out flowers! I advise you to proceed with caution and don't confuse personality with the Dhamma. Dhamma is not confined to one religion or sect. Dhamma is ultimate reality applicable to all. Why shouldn't some Hare Krishna members have also have right views? By the way, could you lend me a tambourine? With metta and every blessing, Pannabahulo Bhikkhu #85101 From: "pannabahulo" Date: Mon Apr 28, 2008 2:42 am Subject: Two questions and some info pannabahulo Dear friends, During the Bangkok seminars I was directed to read the `Susima Sutta' as this provides an example of the Buddha teaching the `dry insight' path rather than stressing the need for jhana attainment first. However, on the Access to Insight website there is a translation of this sutta by Thanissaro Bhikkhu and he preludes it with the following remark: "Translator's note: This discourse is sometimes cited as proof that a meditator can attain Awakening (final gnosis) without having practiced the jhanas, but a close reading shows that it does not support this assertion at all……" And he goes on to give his reasons. So my first question is: What do other DSG members think about this sutta and.the Ven Thanissaro's comments? Secondly, I am told that there is another sutta in which the Buddha teaches dry insight without jhana attainment being a necessary precondition. Does anyone know which sutta this is? On 20th May I will go down to Bangkok. For a few weeks I will stay close enough to Bangkok to be able to attend 2 or 3 of the Saturday afternoon sessions at the Dhamma Foundation. I look forward to seeing some of you then. With metta and blessings, Pannabahulo Bhikkhu #85102 From: "szmicio" Date: Mon Apr 28, 2008 2:02 am Subject: doubts szmicio Dear Dhamma Friends, My name is Lukas, I am from Poland,,I am 22.I have practised Theravada since 2,5 years. I have so many doubts about Magga. I am trying to see the reality as it is. Nama as nama rupa as rupa, Six senses as six senses, and only six senses , nothing more. I have read the "samadhi bhavana" by Ajahn Chah, where he says that when we think, there is only confusion, no panja.And panja cannot arise. But I cannot stop thining, it appers naturaly, and now matter what i do it appears. When I am doing Anapana I cannot concentrate, it is imposible for me, I have noticed that only when there is samma-ditthi , concentration can arise. but I have still so many doubts when i see someone just sit put attention to the breath and concentrate. Maybe I do something wrong? Buddha said that yoniso manasikara condition samma-ditthi, but what can I do when there are moments of avijja? I just ignore my doubts about Metta, because Metta is totaly out of control for me ;> bye Lukas #85103 From: Bernard Arnolda Date: Mon Apr 28, 2008 2:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhavanga chitta lbarnolda Dear Sarah Thanks for your answer. Arpana javana chitthas are the kriya chitthas of the Arahants, and also this is the conciousness that keeps everyone standing, sitting sleeping etc, this chitthas can only follow an instruction given by you nothing else a kriya(action) like what I have mentioned(sitting, standing etc), that is why when a person sleeps standing he falls down, in otherwords it cannot change the action what is performed like the bhavanga chittha can do. Anyway now I understand that a bhavanga chittha is not a arpana jawana chittha but is is something related with the first thaught of this bawaya. Thanks again Bernard sarah abbott wrote: Dear Bernard, --- Bernard Arnolda wrote: >In dreamless sleep is it the arpana javan chitthas > (or similar) that you are talking of which means that a continuation of > a kriya is maintained. .... S: In deep dreamless sleep, there are no mind-door processes, no javana cittas (what is 'arpana'?). The bhavanga cittas are always vipaka cittas, so no kiriya cittas either at such times. <...> #85104 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Apr 28, 2008 3:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Two questions and some info sarahprocter... Dear Ven Pannabahulo & All, --- pannabahulo wrote: > During the Bangkok seminars I was directed to read the `Susima Sutta' > as this provides an example of the Buddha teaching the `dry insight' > path rather than stressing the need for jhana attainment first. .... S: If you look in 'Useful Posts' in the files section under 'Susima Sutta' and also under 'Dry Insight' you'll find a treasure-trove:-). For example, in the second post under 'Susima', Christine quotes from B.Bodhi's translation and notes: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/19330 >"Then the Venerable Susima rose from his seat and approached the Blessed One. Having approached, he paid homage to the Blessed One, sat down to one side, reported to the Blessed One the entire conversation he had had with those bhikkhus. [The Blessed One said:] "First Susima, comes knowledge of the stability of the Dhamma, afterards knowledge of Nibbana." (note 211) "I do not understand in detail, venerable sir, the meaning of what was stated in brief by the Blessed One. It would be good if the Blessed One would explain to me in such a way that I could understand in detail what has been stated in brief." "Whether or not you understand, Susima, first comes knowledge of the stability of the Dhamma, afterwards knowledge of Nibbana." (note 212) "Note 211 states: Pubbe kho Susima dhammatthitinanam, paccha nibbane nanam - Spk: Insight knowledge is "knowledge of the stability of the Dhamma," which arises first. At the end of the course of insight, path knowledge arises; that is "knowledge of Nibbana," which arises later. Spk-pt: The "stability of the Dhamma" is the stableness of phenomena, their intrinsic nature (dhammanam thitata tamsabhavata): namely, impermanence, suffering, nonself. Knowledge of that is "knowledge of the stability of the Dhamma." Note 212 states: Spk: Why is this said? For the purpose of showing the arising of knowledge thus even without concentration. This is meant: "Susima, the path and fruit are not the issue of concentration (samadhinissanda), nor the advantage brought about by concentration (samadhi-anisamsa), nor the outcome of concentration (samadhinipphatti). They are the issue of insight (vipassana), the advantage brought about by insight, the outcome of insight. Therefore, whether you understand or not, first comes knowledge of the stability of the Dhamma, afterwards knowledge of Nibbana. Spk- pt: 'Even without concentration' (vina pi samadhim): even without previously established (concentration) that has acquired the characteristic of serenity (samatha-lakkhanappattam); this is said referring to one who takes the vehicle of insight (vipassanayanika)..."< **** S: I'm appreciating your comments and updates and glad to hear you no longer need to go into hospital. We all enjoyed your contributions and good humour during the discussions in Bangkok too. With metta & respect, Sarah ======== #85105 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Apr 28, 2008 4:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] doubts sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, A warm welcome to DSG! Thank you so much for your introduction and sincere questions. I'm sure you'll hear many different responses to your questions:-) Clearly you've already been studying and considering quite a lot. --- szmicio wrote: > Dear Dhamma Friends, > My name is Lukas, I am from Poland,,I am 22.I have practised Theravada > since 2,5 years. I have so many doubts about Magga. > I am trying to see the reality as it is. Nama as nama rupa as rupa, ... S: And so, as you know, doubt is just a kind of nama, a mental factor which arises and falls away and has a characteristic which can be known. This is what is meant by understanding the present reality - understanding what is present now, rather than wishing for any other reality. ... > Six senses as six senses, and only six senses , nothing more. .... S: Yes, we always try to introduce a self into the experiences. ... > I have read the "samadhi bhavana" by Ajahn Chah, where he says that > when we think, there is only confusion, no panja.And panja cannot arise. > But I cannot stop thining, it appers naturaly, and now matter what i > do it appears. .... S: I like your response here. You are perfectly correct. No one can stop thinking, it arises naturally all the time. When there isn't seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting or touching, there's bound to be thinking. Panna can arise anytime and be aware of thinking as just another reality too. ... > When I am doing Anapana I cannot concentrate, it is imposible for me, > I have noticed that only when there is samma-ditthi , concentration > can arise. ... S: Again you are being very sincere. Only when there is samma-ditthi will there be right concentration. Most of the day, such as wehn we try to do something or try to concentrate, it's bound to be wrong concentration - trying to get something for oneself again without understanding. ... >but I have still so many doubts when i see someone just sit > put attention to the breath and concentrate. Maybe I do something wrong? ... S: Again, the path comes back to understanding the present moment. If there is a comparing, it's most likely to be conceit. If there's thinking or doubt, these can be known right now. And what about seeing now? Visible object now? Hearing now? Sound now? There's no need to sit and pay attention to anything in order for right understanding and awareness to develop. .... > > Buddha said that yoniso manasikara condition samma-ditthi, but what > can I do when there are moments of avijja? .... S: In brief, there's nothing 'you' can do because dhammas are conditioned and anatta. When there's avijja, again it's a reality which can be known. This is yoniso manasikara (wise attention) which will condition more samma-ditthi to accumulate. If there's not a beginning now, then when? .... > > I just ignore my doubts about Metta, because Metta is totaly out of > control for me ;> ... S: What about when you're with your family or friends? Isn't there any friendliness or kindness or consideration at such times? Isn't this different to when there is annoyance or hostility or attachment? Appreciating the quality of metta when it arises naturally in the day is the way it develops. As I said, you'll hear different responses, but you can see what the truth is at this very moment. I greatly look forward to further discussion with you. Metta, Sarah p.s I'd like to encourage any new members (and any shy old members) to put a pic in the members photo album on the DSG home-page. ============== #85106 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Apr 28, 2008 4:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhavanga chitta sarahprocter... Dear Bernard, --- Bernard Arnolda wrote: > Thanks for your answer. Arpana javana chitthas are the kriya chitthas > of the Arahants, ... S: I have some confusion here. By 'arpana', I wonder if you are referring to appanaa(absorption) as in appanaa samaadhi or jhaana? The kiriya cittas of the arahants in the javana processes are only appana cittas at moments of jhana. (These are the five kiriya jhana cittas only experienced by arahants who attain jhana.) The other kiriya cittas of the arahants are not jhana cittas and may not even be accompanied by wisdom. .... >and also this is the conciousness that keeps everyone > standing, sitting sleeping etc, ... S: Here you are not referring to the kiriya cittas of the arahant, but I don't know which citta you are referring to. ... >this chitthas can only follow an > instruction given by you nothing else a kriya(action) like what I have > mentioned(sitting, standing etc), that is why when a person sleeps > standing he falls down, in otherwords it cannot change the action what > is performed like the bhavanga chittha can do. ... S: Can you give me a reference for this? Are you referring to the mind-door adverting consciousness or something? Also, how can a bhavanga citta (a vipaka citta) change the action? ... >Anyway now I understand > that a bhavanga chittha is not a arpana jawana chittha but is is > something related with the first thaught of this bawaya. ..... S: Remember that the bhavanga cittas are *results*, vipaka cittas, conditioned by past kamma. The first citta of life is a bhavanga citta and they arise in between each sense and mind-door process and in deep sleep. They never arise at the same time as javana cittas. I hope we can continue to clarify our understandings together. Metta, Sarah ======= #85107 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Apr 28, 2008 4:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: At the Foundation on 5th April (5) sarahprocter... Hi Ann (& Han), I'm glad to hear that you're back safely in Vancouver, probably back at work by now. Thanks to Glen (your husband) for encouraging the trip and look forward to seeing you on the next one! It's always great to have your keen interest at the discussions and at in-between times - just like the old days. You reminded me of how we used to study the Visuddhimagga together in the temple in Sri Lanka all those years ago. [Han, Ann has a lot of experience with cardiologists, having had her own difficulties in the past as well. Everyone has their story!] Ann, I'm glad you found Han's great summaries. His attention to detail and memory of what was said is remarkable. Now I know why our elders often say that the young don't know how to listen:-). Was there any aspect of the teachings or any particular words that really impressed you on this visit, Ann? Any general reflections related to your daily life then or now? Btw, Azita, thanks for sharing your impressions from the Sat discussion... Metta, Sarah --- glenjohnann wrote: > I arrived back in Vancouver on April 24 and have been looking through > all of the posts for April. I have found your summaries of the > discussions on April 5 very useful and appreciate all of the effort > you put into your posts - and your attention of detail. > > I am happy to hear that your wife is progressing well - always good > to hear that a cardiologist is happy with a patient. #85108 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Apr 28, 2008 5:00 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Direct knowledge and Inference are Mutually Supportive scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, Thanks for the reply (and oops): Regarding, (me): "To recap: even though there might be no root at rebirth, pa~n~naa can still be developed in that particular existence, although doesn't have the strength to allow jhaana or the path to arise." S: "Oooh, I don't think I said that. I think we were discussing patisandhi with two roots (as opposed to 3). In that case I wouldn't rule out the possibility of panna arising, but not to the degree of jhana or path. Do we know now whether there are 2 or 3 roots with the bhavanga cittas?" Scott: I don't, that's for sure. So the development of pa~n~naa could still proceed in this case - that is what I was seeking clarification of. Perhaps the paradox here is that one would need pa~n~naa of a higher level of development than would be possible in order to know the roots of bhavanga citta - if bhavanga citta can be object of pa~n~naa. It is vipaaka, right? S: "As for no roots at rebirth, we know this is the case in very weak kusala vipaka and there is definite handicap of some kind from that first moment. So, I wouldn't go so far as to say panna can still be developed. I haven't seen any indication about this. Let me know if you do, but I don't think you will:-)." Scott: No, I've read what you state above, thanks. Back to the drawing board on the rest... Sincerely, Scott. #85109 From: "connie" Date: Mon Apr 28, 2008 5:42 am Subject: Perfections Corner (136) nichiconn Dear Friends, ch.2 continued: If we consider the perfections developed by the Buddha life after life, as related in the "Basket of Conduct", we can see that our own development of the perfections is still very insignificant compared to his development, that there is an immense difference. Therefore, we should continue further to develop all the perfections. We should not have expectations with regard to right understanding of the characteristics of naama and ruupa which arise and fall away very rapidly at this moment. The truth cannot be realized immediately, but understanding must be developed very gradually during an endlessly long time. We read at the end of the Commentary to the "Conduct of Akitti": "There may be confidence in him (the Bodhisatta), confidence that it is possible to be freed from dukkha, but one may merely express words about this confidence and not act accordingly by the practice in conformity with the Dhamma *1 just as the Buddha did." *1 Dhammanudhamma pa.tipatti: the practice of the Dhamma in conformity with the Dhamma (anudhamma). The practice of the Dhamma so that one attains supra mundane Dhamma, enlightenment. Thus, it is not sufficient merely to have confidence in the perfections the Buddha developed during his former lives, but we should also apply these perfections in daily life. We may express our confidence by words but, even though we speak with kusala citta, if we do not act accordingly by the right practice, we shall not reach the goal. .. to be continued, connie #85110 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Apr 28, 2008 6:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Metta, Ch 2, no 2. sarahprocter... Hi Mike, (Walto & Scott in passing), --- mlnease@... wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > Thanks for the detailed response. Your excerpts were much > more useful than the paraphrase originally offered, I > thought. > > Translation of the Pa.li would no doubt be a good exercise > but I think I'll pass for now. ... S: :-) Thx for your kind words as usual. As for the Pa.li, I can't even copy a few words without typos... I wrote: "Here, 'Duty of Meditation' is a (poor) translation of 'vipassanaadhura.m'. The other bhikkhu determined the fulfill "the Duty of Study" (ganthachura. m)" The last term should have read 'ganthadhura.m'. I think they literally mean 'burden of insight wisdom' and 'burden of studying Scriptures/texts'. (Buddhadatta gives the last phrase and this translation in his dict.) [Thx also to Scott for kindly ignoring a couple of recent silly typos.] Metta, Sarah p.s To repeat again, I think your discussion with Walto is an example to us all of courtesy and wise reflection. ======== #85111 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Apr 28, 2008 2:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhavanga chitta upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 4/28/2008 1:18:36 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes, speaking of bhavanga cittas: They arise when there is no sense-door or mind-door experience. =============================== Sarah, it seems that the foregoing may contradict the following content of the Sabba Sutta (a.k.a. The All). Can you explain why it does not? _________________________ "Monks, I will teach you the All. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak." "As you say, lord," the monks responded. The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. _1_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.023.than.html#n-1) Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." -------------------------------------------- Specifically, how is it that bhavanga cittas are neither 5-sense-door nor mind-door consciousness (and certainly not nibbana), given the Buddha's definition of the all? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream/ (From the Diamond Sutra) #85112 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Apr 28, 2008 3:21 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: report on Bangkok and Kaeng Krajan jonoabb Hi KenH > Yes, I think it did come across that way - even though I worded my > question as carefully as I could. If we are regarding dana as a > reality we must be talking about something that happens in a single > citta. If we are regarding it as a concept then we can talk about > its happening in three-dimensional space over a over a period of time > etc, etc. > I would rather say, "If we are talking about the dhamma that is dana then (like all dhammas) it is a momentary phenomenon, i.e., it exists for but a moment." I think talk about "things happening" in a single moment/over a period of time is already talk in the realm of concepts. > Is panna able to know dana from sila? I suppose it must be. (?) But > panna would *not* need to know the story leading up to it, would it? > Instead it would directly know the dana characteristic (if there was > such a thing) of the citta or cetasika it was experiencing. > > In case you haven't noticed; I am only guessing. :-) > Well, I'd only be guessing, too ;-)) I think your question is: Can panna distinguish the citta that is dana from the similarly-composed citta that is some other form of kusala (such as sila)? I think panna of the moment could know a citta as kusala, but it would be other inferential knowledge that classified it as dana or sila. Jon #85113 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Apr 28, 2008 3:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the present moment ... ? .. Jhana requires panna! - II jonoabb Hi James > James: From this description in the Vism., the thirty seven states > partaking of enlightenment are of a mundane nature (occuring before > enlightenment) and of a supermundane nature (occuring at the time of > enlightenment). > Agreed. > It is incorrect to say that the Noble Eightfold Path > is only of a supermundane nature (occuring only at the time of > enlightenment) when the tradition of Theravada, as recorded by > Buddhaghosa, states that the Noble Eightfold Path is both mundane and > supermundane. > I agree there is a mundane version of the NEP, and I don't believe I've said otherwise. But the description of the NEP is a description of the supramundane path moment, because it is the transcendental nature of the path that the Buddha is declaring. (See also the reference in par. XXII to "the Noble Eightfold Path, which is called 'Enlightenment'".) Getting back to your contention regarding the interpretation of samma-samadhi as one or other of the 4 mundane jhanas, I'd be interested to know whether, as you understand it, mundane jhana is a prerequisite to the development of insight, or is a prerequisite only to the attainment of enlightenment (and, if the latter, to which level of enlightenment). I'd be grateful if you could say something on this aspect, because it is a point that I see as a difficulty to the interpretation you are urging. Jon James: To quote from the Vism: XXII, 33: Herein, the fulfilment of states sharing in enlightenment is the fulfilledness of those states partaking in enlightenment. For they are the following thirty-seven states: the Four Foundations of Mindfulness, the Four Right Endeavours, the Four Roads to Power, the Five Faculties, the Five Powers, the Seven Enlightenment Factors, and the Noble Eightfold Path. And they are called 'partaking of enlightenment' because they take part of the Noble Eightfold Path, which is called 'Enlightenment' in the sense of enlightening, and they 'take the part' of that because they are helpful. XXII, 39. So there are these thirty-seven states partaking of enlightenment. Now in the prior stage when mundane insight is occurring, they are found in a plurality of consciousnesses as follows: the Foundations of Mindfulness consisting in contemplating the body....And at the time when, on seeing an unprofitable state arisen in someone else, which has not yet arisen in his own person, he strives for its non-arising thus 'I shall not behave as he has done in whom this is now arisen, and so this will not arise in me', then he has the first right endeavor; when, seeing something unprofitable in his own behavior, he strives to abandon it, then he has the second; when he strives to arouse jhana or insight so far unarisen in this person, he has the third; and when he arouses again and again what has already arisen so that it shall not diminish, he has the fourth. And at the time of arounsing a profitable state with zeal as the motive force, there is the road consisting in zeal, [and so on with the remaining three roads to power.] And at the time of abstaining from wrong speech there is right speech, [and so on with abstaining from wrong action and wrong livelihood.] At he time arising of [any one of] these four kinds of [path] knowledge (Stream Entry, Once-Return, Non-Return, Arahant), then [all these states] are found in a single consciousness. In the moment of fruition the thirty three excepting the Four Right Endeavours are found. #85114 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Apr 28, 2008 11:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: report on Bangkok and Kaeng Krajan upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 4/28/2008 6:21:44 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: I would rather say, "If we are talking about the dhamma that is dana then (like all dhammas) it is a momentary phenomenon, i.e., it exists for but a moment." ================================= What exactly is "a moment"? Does it have any duration at all? And if it does have duration, in terms of what is that duration measured? Did the Buddha teach about moments, and, if yes, where and in what manner? We all know the informal use of the word 'moment'. Is that how you are using it? In the usual, conventional way? Or do you mean something more precise than that? With metta, Howard #85115 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Apr 28, 2008 3:45 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] More on the Bangkok seminars jonoabb Dear Ven Pannabahulo Many thanks for this interesting and perceptive summary of the discussions in Bangkok and of your own personal experience of the occasion. As you say, once the idea of self is removed from one's conception of the world, there can only be impersonal causes and conditions, and it becomes apparent that indeed nothing can be made to happen. This puts and entirely different complexion on the development of wisdom, and the teachings generally. Thanks again for the inspiring account. Respectfully Jon > My dear Dhamma friends, > > Still alive; feeling well and refreshed. No hospital needed (they are > the last places t find peace and quiet). Just took my neighbour's > advice; he said "You don't rest enough," so I did. > > Those Bangkok seminars were incredible; so much happened that the energy > use must have been very high. As I said before, they were the most > rewarding Dhamma experiences of my life. > > ... > #85116 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Apr 28, 2008 3:56 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Direct Knowledge and Inference are Mutually Supportive jonoabb Hi TG > "The eye is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise; > forms are impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. > Thus this dyad is moving and tottering, > impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. > > “Eye-consciousness is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. > The cause and condition for the arising of eye-consciousness is > also impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. > When, monks, eye-consciousness has arisen in dependence on a > condition that is impermanent, how could it be permanent? > > “The meeting, the encounter, the occurrence of these three > things is called eye-contact. > Eye-contact too is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. > The cause and condition for the arising of eye-contact is > also impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. > When, monks, eye-contact has arisen in dependence on a > condition that is impermanent, how could it be permanent? > > “Contacted, monks, one feels, contacted one intends, > contacted one perceives. > Thus these things too are moving and tottering, impermanent, > changing, becoming otherwise." > > Connected Discourses of the Buddha, vol. 2, pg. 1172: Samyutta Nikaya) > > Sorry my friend, not a conventional object in the bunch! Sense object, > sense bases, feeling, perception, intentions, consciousness...all which are -- > moving and tottering, impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. > I'm not sure your assertion ("not a conventional object in the bunch!") is correct. There are certainly many references to dhammas, but there are also references to 'dyads' and it is these rather than the dhammas to which the description "moving and tottering" is applied. Where dhammas are mentioned they are described as "impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise". [There is, however, one passage that is unclear to me in this regard. The last paragraph in your quoted passage reads: “Contacted, monks, one feels, contacted one intends, contacted one perceives. Thus these things too are moving and tottering, impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise." I am not sure what the "things" being referred to in the second sentence are - dhammas or dyads (or something else).] BTW, there is another sutta in which dhammas are described as "breaking up". This is done as part of a word association for the Pali term 'loka' ( 'world'). But I don't think such occasional descriptions should be read as asserting something that is not confirmed elsewhere. > It would seem to me that the practice of mindfulness would well highlight > that changing conditions are due to the interaction with other conditions, and > not something "self wrought through 'its own' characteristic." > But surly the Buddha spoke often of the characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta as characteristics of dhammas to be known by developed insight? Jon #85117 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Apr 28, 2008 3:57 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bangkok seminars jonoabb Hi James >> The question is whether a monk who lives in an environment >> where "the Dhamma has been replaced by customs, traditions and superstitions" can properly observe the Patimoka and find support in the development of the path. >> >> We all know of the sutta passage where the Buddha explained to >> Ananda that "Companionship is the whole of the holy life". As I see it, this means that if one's fellow monks are not truly followers of the teachings, the holy life loses much of its meaning. >> > > James: Look, if Ven. P is surrounded by monks who drink alcohol, > steal, lie, and commit sexual misconduct, then by all means he > should remove himself from that situation. But, if it is just about > being around monks who bow to a Buddha statue, when KS doesn't > believe in that, then you and Ven. P both need to get a grip!! > Well of course, it's a matter of degree. Glad to see you conceding on this one ;-)) Jon #85118 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Apr 28, 2008 4:09 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: report on Bangkok and Kaeng Krajan jonoabb Hi Howard > I would rather say, "If we are talking about the dhamma that is dana > then (like all dhammas) it is a momentary phenomenon, i.e., it exists > for but a moment." > > ================================= > What exactly is "a moment"? Does it have any duration at all? And if it > does have duration, in terms of what is that duration measured? > To be honest, I've never considered these questions (which I know you've raised before), perhaps because I don't see the relevance of them ;-)) For what it's worth, I think of a moment as being an extremely short duration of time. > Did the > Buddha teach about moments, and, if yes, where and in what manner? > I rely largely on the commentarial materials, which mention certain sutta passages that allude indirectly to the "momentary phenomena" idea. > We all know the informal use of the word 'moment'. Is that how you are > using it? In the usual, conventional way? Or do you mean something more > precise than that? > I think it'd be correct to say I'm using it in the usual, conventional way. What is your interest in this aspect? Jon #85119 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Apr 28, 2008 4:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] report on Bangkok and Kaeng Krajan jonoabb Hi Howard >> There are never multiple cittas, and there is >> no series of related cittas! >> > > Right. > > =============================== > Hey, Jon! What do you mean "right"!? > Commentarial psychology certainly deals with streams of related cittas, > including streams of up to 17 cittas all with "the same" rupa as object. I > agree that there are never multiple mind states that *co-occur* in the same > mind stream, but the second half of what you are agreeing to, about series of > cittas, goes too far. There is but one citta at a time - no doubt about that, > but Ken seems to want to freeze the world at a single citta and banish anicca > from the tilkakkhana. > What is true, is that no series of paramattha dhammas is other than a > kind of collection of dhammas, and is not itself a paramattha dhamma. > I can see why you would question this, but I was taking KenH to be meaning something along the lines of your last paragraph, namely, that a series of paramattha dhammas is not itself a paramattha dhamma. Jon #85120 From: "szmicio" Date: Mon Apr 28, 2008 9:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] doubts szmicio Dear Sarah, Thank you very much for your answer. It is really helpful for me. > S: Again, the path comes back to understanding the present moment. If > there is a comparing, it's most likely to be conceit. If there's thinking > or doubt, these can be known right now. And what about seeing now? Visible > object now? Hearing now? Sound now? Visible object? What sees visible object and what understand that is a rupa? What are the conditions for arise understanding of rupa?(seeing rupa as rupa) >There's no need to sit and pay > attention to anything in order for right understanding and awareness to > develop. > This is yoniso manasikara (wise attention) which will condition more > samma-ditthi to accumulate. If there's not a beginning now, then when? So sholud I accept this moment as it is? bye Lukas P.s What if we canot name some mental activity(nama)? #85121 From: TGrand458@... Date: Mon Apr 28, 2008 1:50 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Direct Knowledge and Inference are Mutually Supportive TGrand458@... Hi Jon (and anybody that can help me recover from this craziness.) :-/ In a message dated 4/28/2008 4:56:47 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: Hi TG > "The eye is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise; > forms are impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. > Thus this dyad is moving and tottering, > impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. > > “Eye-consciousness is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. > The cause and condition for the arising of eye-consciousness is > also impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. > When, monks, eye-consciousness has arisen in dependence on a > condition that is impermanent, how could it be permanent? > > “The meeting, the encounter, the occurrence of these three > things is called eye-contact. > Eye-contact too is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. > The cause and condition for the arising of eye-contact is > also impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. > When, monks, eye-contact has arisen in dependence on a > condition that is impermanent, how could it be permanent? > > “Contacted, monks, one feels, contacted one intends, > contacted one perceives. > Thus these things too are moving and tottering, impermanent, > changing, becoming otherwise." > > Connected Discourses of the Buddha, vol. 2, pg. 1172: Samyutta Nikaya) > > Sorry my friend, not a conventional object in the bunch! Sense object, > sense bases, feeling, perception, intentions, consciousness. sense bases, feeli > moving and tottering, impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. > I'm not sure your assertion ("not a conventional object in the bunch!") is correct. There are certainly many references to dhammas, but there are also references to 'dyads' and it is these rather than the dhammas to which the description "moving and tottering" is applied. ........................................................ TG: OK, I hate to be THIS blunt, here's where I need the (moral) help because I feel like I've enter BIZZARRO LAND. The "dyad" is the sense base and the sense object...it is these that are moving and tottering. To assert that it is not the sense base and sense object that are being referred to, and to assert that there is something else called a "dyad" that is being referred to, as opposed to the constituents of said "dyad," has reached a new dimension in ridiculous rhetorical evasiveness ... apparently in an attempt to defend some commentarial doctrinal dogma. If one sets up these road blocks, it not only hurt themselves and their own insight, it hurts anyone else that might buy into it. This is making Bill Clinton's "it depends what is -- is" looking down-right respectable. (I now toss my computer files up in the air .... figuratively of course.) .................................................................... Where dhammas are mentioned they are described as "impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise". [There is, however, one passage that is unclear to me in this regard. The last paragraph in your quoted passage reads: “Contacted, monks, one feels, contacted one intends, contacted one perceives. Thus these things too are moving and tottering, impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise." I am not sure what the "things" being referred to in the second sentence are - dhammas or dyads (or something else).] .................................................................... TG: LOL Hellooooooooo It is exactly what is being described that is being referred to. I.E., Elements!!! Aggregates!!!! I have to give you credit though....at least you didn't just dodge this content !!!!!!!!!!!! It seems that attachment to other views makes it difficult to see the most plain and straightforward of teachings by the Buddha... teachings dealing directly with elements and aggregates. And yes, they don't jibe with some of the Abhidhamma commentarial stuff that gets adhered to. One would think that after reading this section, you wouldn't have made the dubious "dyad" comments above. :-( ..................................................................... BTW, there is another sutta in which dhammas are described as "breaking up". This is done as part of a word association for the Pali term 'loka' ( 'world'). But I don't think such occasional descriptions should be read as asserting something that is not confirmed elsewhere. > It would seem to me that the practice of mindfulness would well highlight > that changing conditions are due to the interaction with other conditions, and > not something "self wrought through 'its own' characteristic. > But surly the Buddha spoke often of the characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta as characteristics of dhammas to be known by developed insight? ...................................................... TG: I don't know exactly what you're getting at here, and I think its just as well for both of us. ;-) Suffice it to say that you are putting way too much substantiation in these so-called "ultimately real with their own characteristics dhammas." But you're not alone. TG OUT #85122 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Apr 28, 2008 6:15 pm Subject: Re: to James and all good friends buddhatrue Hi Ven. P, Glad to see that you are rested, but I really wish you had followed the doctor's advice and checked yourself into the hospital. Doctors don't recommend things like that for no reason. Anyway, I will respond to some of your comments: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "pannabahulo" wrote: > > > Dear James, > > > > Thank you for your e-mail in which you wrote: > > > > "Hi Ven. P, > > I know that I am not your favorite person but I thought I would give > you some feedback anyway" > > > > James, I regard you as an enthusiastic seeker on the path of Dhamma. I > respect you very much for that and admire the way you seem to > continually question with a genuine desire to understand. > > Like me you are very direct and speak straight from your heart. James: Thank you. I am glad that you better understand me. > > My only disagreements with you were over the personal attacks on Ajan > Sujin. James: I don't know about the phrase "personal attacks". I simply question her teaching of the Dhamma- is that personal? Granted, I do single her out for criticism, but it is her teaching of the Dhamma which I criticize- not her as a person. But, for those who view her as a sort of 'guru', it may be difficult to tell the difference. > > I am sure that if you actually met and talked with Ajan Sujin you would > know for yourself that she has made real progress on the path. James: Well, of course she has made real progress on the path. So have you, and me, and many others in this group who have dedicated themselves to the Buddha's teaching. We have all made progess. Now, just how much progress I can't really venture to say. KS refuses to describe her personal progress, even to her students, which I find strange. However, I have read many of the writings of KS; I have listened to her on audio; I have read others paraphrase her teachings; I have discussed her teachings for years on this group- don't you think that is enough to understand what she is presenting? (I have asked many times for her to join this group but she refuses to type.) What else could I possibly do? Why would I have to go and meet her in person just to start to believe her? Ven. P, what is seems like to me is that you are not describing wisdom, you are describing charisma. KS may have wonderful charisma in person, but I am not really interested in that. I have no interest in finding and venerating a charismatic guru. > > There is a story in the texts that we can hold as a very good check on > our speech and actions. I repeat this now as a self reminder as well as > to help you. > > A young monk was on alms-round in a village when he saw an old monk in > front of him. By the time the young monk had got to the edge of the > village he noticed that the old monk had sat down and was drinking rice > soup from out of his bowl. The young monk thought, "What a horrible > sight that is. Why can't that greedy old monk wait until he gets > back to his temple before he eats his food?" That is a shameful > sight." > > That night there was a knock on the door of the young monk's kuti > (hut). He opened the door and saw the old monk standing there. He > immediately paid respect to the elder monk who then asked him, "How > is your meditation practice going?" The young monk replied that he > seemed to be stuck and could make no progress. The old monk replied, > "Don't strive for anything further. This morning you criticised > an arahant." > > The young monk immediately fell on his knees and asked the old monk for > forgiveness. The latter replied that he was already forgiven and that > that had been the purpose of his visit." > > In relating this story during an introductory talk to meditators, the > Late Ven Sayadaw U Silananda pointed out that whether or not a person is > an arahant is not the point. Criticising any holy person will hinder > your own spiritual development. James: Well, I disagree with the Ven. Sayadaw U. Silananda when he said that it doesn't matter if the person is an arahant or not. It matters a great deal. If I criticise the personal behavior of an arahant, in a self-righteous, pompous sort of way, then of course I can expect to recieve negative kamma-vipaka. But, when I criticize the teachings of KS as being anti-jhana, anti-meditation, anti- samadhi, etc., then I am not "criticising a holy person", I am defending the Dhamma in the best way I know how. To my way of thinking, that will only benefit my spiritual development, not hinder it. > > James, please take it from me that Ajan Sujin is very special. I too > ?as you know ?completely disagreed with her for quite a time. > But, having travelled and searched for teachers who are well established > on the path, I can tell you that she is one of a very rare few. It was > because of that that I stuck with her even though I was arguing like > crazy all the way along. James: Okay, fine. What can I say to that? If you a happy with her then see where it goes for you. But I will continue to point out the inconsistencies I see in her interpretation of the Dhamma and what the Buddha taught. If the moderators of this group don't approve of that, I can leave the group. In the past, there was a member of this group who was just as star- struck by K. Sujin as you are now- his name is Phil. He also tried to convince me many times that I just didn't understand K. Sujin and I wasn't being fair to her. I stuck to my original position- she doesn't teach what the Buddha taught. Evenutally, because Phil began meditating on the meaning of the Buddha's original teachings, he also saw that K. Sujin was in fact misrepresenting the Buddha. Maybe you can compare notes with him. As for me, I can only do what I think is right. > > Now things have clicked into place. In fact your letter can give me a > base to add a few comments on that; so I will use it and hope you > don't mind. James: No, I don't mind. I'm glad that you read my post and it gave you a lot to consider. > > Saying that you are not my `favourite person' is completely > wrong. You are my Dhamma brother and I wish you all the peace and > wellbeing for your life. We are on the same journey ?hang on in > there friend. James: Thank you. I wish the same good journey for you. > > With metta, > > > > Pannabahulo Bhikkhu Metta, James #85123 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Apr 28, 2008 6:26 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: the present moment ... ? .. Jhana requires panna! - II buddhatrue Hi Jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > I agree there is a mundane version of the NEP, and I don't believe I've > said otherwise. James: What do you mean by "mundane version"? Who do you believe taught this "mundane version"? > > But the description of the NEP is a description of the supramundane path > moment, because it is the transcendental nature of the path that the > Buddha is declaring. James: Where? When? In what sutta? If the Buddha was only teaching a supramundane version, who taught the mundane version? Jon, you are not making any sense to me. (See also the reference in par. XXII to "the Noble > Eightfold Path, which is called 'Enlightenment'".) James: You will have to quote to me what you mean, with your analysis please. > > Getting back to your contention regarding the interpretation of > samma-samadhi as one or other of the 4 mundane jhanas, I'd be interested > to know whether, as you understand it, mundane jhana is a prerequisite > to the development of insight, or is a prerequisite only to the > attainment of enlightenment (and, if the latter, to which level of > enlightenment). > > I'd be grateful if you could say something on this aspect, because it is > a point that I see as a difficulty to the interpretation you are urging. James: We have discussed that issue many times already, and Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote a detailed article about that issue which Sarah specially posted for this group. There is not a clear-cut answer but it appears that jhana is required for non-return or arahant, but not stream entry or once-return. Read B. Bodhi's article again found in the files section of this group (which I'm sure you know already since you are a moderator ;-)). > > Jon Metta, James #85124 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Apr 28, 2008 7:38 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] doubts lbidd2 Hi Lukas, Regarding difficulties with concentration, there has to be some pleasure in it. Notice how you concentrate in some activity that you enjoy and see if you can apply the same technique to anapana sati. When practicing don't concern yourself with difficult questions. The breath is a medium to cultivate tranquility and wakefulness. Relaxed but not dreaming. Try to relax into the breathing. There is quite a bit of "body work" involved. You have to be aware of the various tensions in the body. Join these tensions with the dissolving quality of the breath. When you are done you should feel a little diminished. Larry #85125 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon Apr 28, 2008 9:11 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Direct knowledge and Inference are Mutually Supportive rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: >> S: Oooh, I don't think I said that. I think we were discussing patisandhi > with two roots (as opposed to 3). In that case I wouldn't rule out the > possibility of panna arising, but not to the degree of jhana or path. Do > we know now whether there are 2 or 3 roots with the bhavanga cittas? > > As for no roots at rebirth, we know this is the case in very weak kusala > vipaka and there is definite handicap of some kind from that first moment. > So, I wouldn't go so far as to say panna can still be developed. I haven't > seen any indication about this. Let me know if you do, but I don't think > you will:-). > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== Dear Sarah and Scott, A being with only 2 roots cannot develop jhana or attain magga and phala. They can develop panna. I think a being with no roots can still develop panna to some degree. Perhaps Nina can confirm or refute this. Even animals listen to Dhamma and in their next rebirth can attain magga. Robert > #85126 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Apr 28, 2008 10:09 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Direct knowledge and Inference are Mutually Supportive sarahprocter... Hi Robert, Thanks for your input. --- rjkjp1 wrote: > A being with only 2 roots cannot develop jhana or attain magga and > phala. They can develop panna. ... S: Yes, that's what I've said ....depending on accumulations of course. ... > I think a being with no roots can still develop panna to some degree. ... S: I'll be interested to see any textual quote to support this. ... > Perhaps Nina can confirm or refute this. Even animals listen to Dhamma > and in their next rebirth can attain magga. ... S: Again, I'll be interested to see the textual support for panna being developed in animals. Metta, Sarah ======== #85127 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon Apr 28, 2008 11:24 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Direct knowledge and Inference are Mutually Supportive rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > > ... > > I think a being with no roots can still develop panna to some degree. > ... > S: I'll be interested to see any textual quote to support this. > ... > > Perhaps Nina can confirm or refute this. Even animals listen to Dhamma > > and in their next rebirth can attain magga. > ... > S: Again, I'll be interested to see the textual support for panna being > developed in animals. > >+++++ Dear Sarah As I said we should wait for Nina to explain. In the commentary to the Abhidhamma it gives the story of the 500 extremely wise arahant disciples of sariputta. These men had all been in a long past life bats in a cave at the time of kassapa Buddha (see p21 of the atthasalini). They listened to two monks who used to recite Abhidhamma and although unable to understand the words knew that this is the law. After death they were all born in the deva world until the time of our Buddha when they became monks and arahants. Do you have any textual support saying that it is impossible for no rooted humans to have sobhana cittas accompanied by amoha? Robert #85128 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Apr 29, 2008 12:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Direct knowledge and Inference are Mutually Supportive sarahprocter... Dear Robert, --- rjkjp1 wrote: > > S: Again, I'll be interested to see the textual support for panna > being > > developed in animals. ... >R: In the commentary to the Abhidhamma it gives the story > of the 500 extremely wise arahant disciples of > sariputta. These men had all been > in a long past life bats in a cave at the time of > kassapa Buddha (see p21 of the atthasalini). They > listened to two monks who used to recite Abhidhamma > and although unable to understand the words knew that > this is the law. After death they were all born in the > deva world until the time of our Buddha when they > became monks and arahants. ... S: "they grasped a general idea that it was the Law, being unable to distinguish the good from the bad. They passed away with only the general idea suggested by the voice and were reborn in the world of the gods." I take this as referring to the nimitta as object of the last javana cittas as conditioned by previous kamma. I don't take it as evidence for panna being developed in animals. Isn't it like the frog story in the Visuddhimagga you raised quite recently with K.Sujin? You were also referring to the frog's panna as I recall, but I believe her response was along the same lines as the one I've just given. ... > Do you have any textual support saying that it is impossible for no > rooted humans to have sobhana cittas accompanied by amoha? ... S: No, which is why I didn't rule this out. I just indicated I hadn't seen any reference to suggest panna could be developed. Metta, Sarah ======== #85129 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Apr 29, 2008 12:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Direct knowledge and Inference are Mutually Supportive sarahprocter... Dear Scott, --- Scott Duncan wrote: > Regarding, (me): "To recap: even though there might be no root at > rebirth, pa~n~naa can still be developed in that particular existence, > although doesn't have the strength to allow jhaana or the path to > arise." > > S: "Oooh, I don't think I said that. I think we were discussing > patisandhi with two roots (as opposed to 3). In that case I wouldn't > rule out the possibility of panna arising, but not to the degree of > jhana or path. Do we know now whether there are 2 or 3 roots with the > bhavanga cittas?" > > Scott: I don't, that's for sure. So the development of pa~n~naa could > still proceed in this case - that is what I was seeking clarification > of. ... S: I don't think it's clear. Certainly there can be listening and kusala of various kinds to condition panna in future. All we can say is definitely not to the degree of jhana or lokuttara cittas. .... >Perhaps the paradox here is that one would need pa~n~naa of a > higher level of development than would be possible in order to know > the roots of bhavanga citta - if bhavanga citta can be object of > pa~n~naa. It is vipaaka, right? ... S: Bhavanga citta can be the object of (developed) panna and yes, it's vipaka citta. .... > > S: "As for no roots at rebirth, we know this is the case in very weak > kusala vipaka and there is definite handicap of some kind from that > first moment. So, I wouldn't go so far as to say panna can still be > developed. I haven't seen any indication about this. Let me know if > you do, but I don't think you will:-)." > > Scott: No, I've read what you state above, thanks. Back to the > drawing board on the rest... ... S: You'll have seen from Robert's responses that this is a controversial area and I'm not sure that speculation about it is particularly useful. There are so many aspects of the teachings we can never know. In the end, the development of panna is about what can be known now, rather than what is in the texts. All the same, always glad to read what you find from your 'drawing board' studies. Metta, Sarah ======== #85130 From: Bernard Arnolda Date: Tue Apr 29, 2008 12:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhavanga chitta lbarnolda Dar Sarah I would like to try to make you undestand what I was refering to arpana jawan chittha, it is from the book Abidhamma Margaya written by Renukane Chandawimala Maha Thero who has written most of the Abidhamma books in Sri Lanka and specially in sinhala. I will try my best to translate this sinhala to english: The body will not move on its own. The mind which is arupee (immeterial) is not capable of doing so. sitting, standing, moving your body, raising your hands, moving your feet etc which the body does is done by the rupas generated by the chittha or mind. The person who is standing keeps himself straight without falling or the person who is sitted keeps himself straight without falling is because of the rupas that are generated by the mind. Out of the seventy five chitthas which can create rupas , twenty six of them are arpana jawan chitthas which can, not only create a rupa but it can also continue the rupa action which it is performing (sitting, standing or any other action) The rupas that is created by the arpana jawana is not capable of changing the position or action but it can only continue its position for some time. For example the jawana chitthas cannot make a person stand while he is sleeping but he can make him sleep or continue what he was doing, or in otherwise it cannot change what he is performing. If at this moment another chittha makes a peson sleep when he is standing then the man falls down.. Anyway Sarah I have the language problem comming into my study I will have to go into more of the english versions if I to continue discussions with the dhamma group, since I do most of my reading and studies in sinhala excuse me for this. with love Bernard.h abbott wrote: Dear Bernard, --- Bernard Arnolda wrote: > Thanks for your answer. Arpana javana chitthas are the kriya chitthas > of the Arahants, ... S: I have some confusion here. By 'arpana', I wonder if you are referring to appanaa(absorption) as in appanaa samaadhi or jhaana? <....> #85131 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Apr 29, 2008 12:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhavanga chitta sarahprocter... Hi Howard, --- upasaka@... wrote: >S: They arise when there > is no sense-door or mind-door experience. > =============================== > Sarah, it seems that the foregoing may contradict the following > content > of the Sabba Sutta (a.k.a. The All). Can you explain why it does not? > _________________________ ... S: I don't see any problem - see below: > > "Monks, I will teach you the All. Listen & pay close attention. I will > speak." > "As you say, lord," the monks responded. > The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & > sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, > intellect & > ideas. This, monks, is called the All. _1_ > (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.023.than.html#n-1) <...> > -------------------------------------------- > Specifically, how is it that bhavanga cittas are neither 5-sense-door > nor > mind-door consciousness (and certainly not nibbana), given the Buddha's > > definition of the all? ... S: The 'All' refer to ayatanas, the meeting of the various dhammas (realities). Only paramattha dhammas are included. What TB translates as "intellect and ideas" refers to manayatana and dhammayatana. Manayatana includes *all* cittas, starting with the bhavanga cittas. (Dhammayatana includes all cetasikas, subtle rupas and nibbana). So even though bhavanga cittas are neither 5 sense-door consciousness nor mind-door consciousness, they are still manayatana, knowable by developed panna. This is because bhavanga cittas can still appear as a mind-door object accompanied by panna. I hope this clarifies. Metta, Sarah p.s I know Jon wished you a happy birthday for last Friday from both of us, but let me add a belated one of my own! Any special celebration with your family this year? ================ #85132 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Apr 29, 2008 1:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhavanga chitta sarahprocter... Dear Bernard, I understand what you are saying now, though I'm not sure what it has to do with our discussion on bhavanga cittas? For others, let me add some notes to what you write here: --- Bernard Arnolda wrote: > I would like to try to make you undestand what I was refering to > arpana jawan chittha, ... S: As I thought, you are referring to appanaa cittas, appanaajavana, i.e jhana cittas .... > The body will not move on its own. The mind which is arupee > (immeterial) is not capable of doing so. sitting, standing, moving your > body, raising your hands, moving your feet etc which the body does is > done by the rupas generated by the chittha or mind. The person who is > standing keeps himself straight without falling or the person who is > sitted keeps himself straight without falling is because of the rupas > that are generated by the mind. > Out of the seventy five chitthas which can create rupas , twenty six > of them are arpana jawan chitthas ..... S: What you are saying/quoting is that there are 75 cittas which produce rupas. The cittas which don't produce rupas are the arupavacara vipaka cittas and the dvi-panca vinnana cittas (2 sets of fivefold sense consciousness). In the Abhidhamattha Sangaha (C.M.A., ed by B.Bodhi) it further says (ch VI, #11): "Therein, the javanas of absorption (appanaajavana.m) also uphold the bodily postures. But the determining consciousness (votthapana, javanas of the sense sphere, and direct-knowledge consciousness produce also (bodily and vocal) intimation. Herein, the thirteen javanas accompanied by joy produce smiling too." In the Guide notes to the reference to the appanaa javana cittas, it adds: "The maintenance or upholding of the bodily postures is a function of states of consciousness. The twenty-six javanas of absorption perform this function minimally, by maintaining the body in a sitting, standing, or lying position. The other thirty-two cittas mentioned - the determining consciousness, sense-sphere javanas and direct-knowledge cittas - not only uphold the postures but also activate bodily and vocal intimation." .... >which can, not only create a rupa but > it can also continue the rupa action which it is performing (sitting, > standing or any other action) The rupas that is created by the arpana > jawana is not capable of changing the position or action but it can only > continue its position for some time. For example the jawana chitthas > cannot make a person stand while he is sleeping but he can make him > sleep or continue what he was doing, or in otherwise it cannot change > what he is performing. .... S: Yes, as I quoted above, 'maintaining the body' in its position only. ... >If at this moment another chittha makes a peson > sleep when he is standing then the man falls down.. Anyway Sarah I have > the language problem comming into my study I will have to go into more > of the english versions if I to continue discussions with the dhamma > group, since I do most of my reading and studies in sinhala excuse me > for this. .... S: No problem, it's interesting to have your input. You might find it helpful to get a copy of the text I've quoted from here as it's available at B.P.S. in Kandy. "Abhidhammattha Sangaha, Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma." With this one text, you'll see the standard Pali spelling and quickly become familiar with the English translated terms. Now you've patiently explained what your were referring to with regard to the appana javana cittas, please remind me how they came to be introduced in our discussion! Please don't be concerned about your English or the Pali spellings. We'll work it out together. Metta, Sarah ======== #85133 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Apr 29, 2008 1:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] doubts sarahprocter... Dear Luke, --- szmicio wrote: > Visible object? > What sees visible object and what understand that is a rupa? ... S: Seeing consciousness sees visible object and panna (pa~n~naa, right understanding) understands that it is a rupa - just that which is seen. .... > What are the conditions for arise understanding of rupa?(seeing rupa > as rupa) ... S: Having discussions like this! Hearing, reading and considering what rupa is and how it is different from nama. For example, visible object appears now to seeing. Seeing experiences it, but the visible object doesn't experience anything. So its characteristic is that it can only be seen, it cannot see anything. Before we heard about namas and rupas, about seeing and visible object, there was the idea that 'we' could experience objects and know about them. There was also the idea that computers and people were seen, not just visible object. ... > So sholud I accept this moment as it is? ... S: Again, there's no *I* to accept anything. There are conditioned dhammas arising and falling away. If visible object is seen at this moment, or doubt is experienced for that matter, it's useless to try and be aware of another dhamma. The development of satipatthana concerns the awareness and understanding of what *appears* now. This is the way that detachment rather than attachment is developed in the practice. ... > P.s > What if we canot name some mental activity(nama)? ... S: The growth of panna has nothing to do with naming. It is the understanding of the characteristics of what appears. So if seeing (or hearing or any other nama) is known for what it is, it doesn't matter what it's called. So there's no point in trying to catch or name dhammas when they arise. I really like your questions because they are concerned with the practice, the development of panna at this very moment. I look forward to anymore. Metta, Sarah p.s Nina will also be delighted to meet you, Bernard and any other newcomers with a keen interest in Dhamma/Abhidhamma when she returns from her long weekend away. ============== #85134 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Apr 29, 2008 1:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] heaven and hell sarahprocter... Hi Leo, --- Leo wrote: > I have seen in Sutta Pitaka that Hell is Jealous of Heaven. ... S: I haven't seen this but am more interested in the living hell at moments of jealousy or anger. And isn't this living hell conditioned by the strong attachments to having sense objects as we'd like them, to our fantasies to such heaven during the day, when everything is just how we'd like it to be? Isn't it time to see the present realities - the attachments and aversions, the insignificant sense experiences for what they are? So, paint whatever you'd like, whatever there are conditions to paint, whilst developing more understanding of the realities at such times, just like now. Good Luck! Metta, Sarah ====== #85135 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Apr 29, 2008 2:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: report on Bangkok and Kaeng Krajan sarahprocter... Hi Mike, --- mlnease@... wrote: > >S: It's like right concentration....I've heard it > > said that any concentration that appears now is bound to > > be wrong (aksuala) concentration. The characteristic of > > right concentration only appears at stages of vipassana > > nana which is why it is said to be 'yoked' to panna at > > such times. > >M: Are you referring to a specific mental factor or > conventionally? ... S: I was referring to ekaggata cetasika, samma samadhi of the path. Metta, Sarah p.s again, appreciated #85086. I find your way of explanation very helpful. ========= #85136 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Apr 29, 2008 2:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] bodily feeling in satipatthana sarahprocter... Hi Larry, --- Larry wrote: > I noticed that in the Satipatthana Sutta in the feeling section, feeling > is delineated as worldly > feeling and spiritual feeling. There is no mention of bodily feeling. ... S: There are many different classifications of feelings, but all feelings (vedana) are included. From the commentary in Soma's translation: "Pleasant worldly feeling refers to the six joyful feelings connected with the six sense-doors, and dependent on that which is tainted by defilements." "Pleasant spiritual feeling refers to the six joyful feelings connected with the six sense-doors, and not dependent on sense-desire." Same for painful and neutral feelings. Bodily feelings are included. These are the ones connected with the bodysense-door. Metta, Sarah ========= #85137 From: "lbarnolda" Date: Tue Apr 29, 2008 3:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhavanga chitta lbarnolda --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Howard, > > --- upasaka@... wrote: > >S: They arise when there > > is no sense-door or mind-door experience. > > =============================== > > Sarah, it seems that the foregoing may contradict the following > > content > > of the Sabba Sutta (a.k.a. The All). Can you explain why it does not? > > _________________________ > ... > S: I don't see any problem - see below: > > > > "Monks, I will teach you the All. Listen & pay close attention. I will > > speak." > > "As you say, lord," the monks responded. > > The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & > > sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, > > intellect & > > ideas. This, monks, is called the All. _1_ > > (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.023.than.html#n -1) > <...> > > -------------------------------------------- > > Specifically, how is it that bhavanga cittas are neither 5- sense-door > > nor > > mind-door consciousness (and certainly not nibbana), given the Buddha's > > > > definition of the all? > ... > S: The 'All' refer to ayatanas, the meeting of the various dhammas > (realities). Only paramattha dhammas are included. > > What TB translates as "intellect and ideas" refers to manayatana and > dhammayatana. Manayatana includes *all* cittas, starting with the bhavanga > cittas. (Dhammayatana includes all cetasikas, subtle rupas and nibbana). > > So even though bhavanga cittas are neither 5 sense-door consciousness nor > mind-door consciousness, they are still manayatana, knowable by developed > panna. This is because bhavanga cittas can still appear as a mind- door > object accompanied by panna. > > I hope this clarifies. > > Metta, > > Sarah > p.s I know Jon wished you a happy birthday for last Friday from both of > us, but let me add a belated one of my own! Any special celebration with > your family this year? > ================ >Dear Saarah, As you have mentioned the Bhavanga chitthas can appear as a mind door object accompanied by panna - what is this stage or what is the chittha that you can mention or at what stage of conciousness is this With mettha Bernard. #85138 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Apr 29, 2008 12:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Direct Knowledge and Inference are Mutually Supportive upasaka_howard Hi, Jon (and TG) - This is very rich and interesting conversation. At first, Jon, I was about to jump in with agreement (with you), seeing only dyads (the smallest aggregations) as "moving and tottering," but then a closer reading made me see the matter as a bit more complex than that. I'll insert a few comments in context below - just for discussing, an not insisting on a point. In a message dated 4/28/2008 6:56:35 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: Hi TG > "The eye is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise; > forms are impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. > Thus this dyad is moving and tottering, > impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Each of the two interrelated dhammas is said to be "impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise." The dyad consisting of the two is *also* said to be "impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise," but it is additionally described as "moving and tottering," which is very nice metaphor for a pair of changing phenomena tied together! (One can picture lurching this way and that as the result of individual movements of two phenomena tied together.) I think it was a good observation on your part, Jon, that the "moving and tottering" terminology is used to distinguish the dyads from their components. But I hasten to add that this sutta dies not maintain that distinction in a consistently unambiguos manner. A look-ahead a few paragraphs to feeling, intention and perception, each paramattha dhamma, will show you what I mean. I would also note, however, that for the two individual dhammas involved, and for the dyad as well, which is mentioned as something to speak about, and not nothing at all, and behaviorally differently from its two components, instead of saying for example "impermanent, arising, ceasing," the wording is "impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise," which to me suggests more a flowing alteration (or constant non-remaining) than the discrete, staccatto, on\off behavior presumed by many here on DSG. Some of these comments apply as well to subsequent paragraphs. ----------------------------------------------------- > > “Eye-consciousness is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. > The cause and condition for the arising of eye-consciousness is > also impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. > When, monks, eye-consciousness has arisen in dependence on a > condition that is impermanent, how could it be permanent? > > “The meeting, the encounter, the occurrence of these three > things is called eye-contact. > Eye-contact too is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. > The cause and condition for the arising of eye-contact is > also impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. > When, monks, eye-contact has arisen in dependence on a > condition that is impermanent, how could it be permanent? > > “Contacted, monks, one feels, contacted one intends, > contacted one perceives. > Thus these things too are moving and tottering, impermanent, > changing, becoming otherwise." -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: This last paragraph is ambiguous. On the plain reading of it, It says that each of the namas of feeling, intending, and perceiving is "MOVING AND TOTTERING, impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise." (Emphasis mine.) However, it is possible that the meaning here is being expressed in an abbreviated manner, and a fuller rendering would be "Thus the feeling, intention, and perception too are impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise, and the triad is moving and tottering, impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise." The basis for assuming this fuller reading would be maintaining consistency throughout the sutta. (Which is the intended undertstanding, though, is unknown, and this is a good example where a commentary might be helpful, I would think.) ------------------------------------------------------- > > Connected Discourses of the Buddha, vol. 2, pg. 1172: Samyutta Nikaya) > > Sorry my friend, not a conventional object in the bunch! Sense object, > sense bases, feeling, perception, intentions, consciousness...all which are -- > moving and tottering, impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. > I'm not sure your assertion ("not a conventional object in the bunch!") is correct. There are certainly many references to dhammas, but there are also references to 'dyads' and it is these rather than the dhammas to which the description "moving and tottering" is applied. ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: An astute observation, I think, Jon. ---------------------------------------------------- Where dhammas are mentioned they are described as "impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise". [There is, however, one passage that is unclear to me in this regard. The last paragraph in your quoted passage reads: “Contacted, monks, one feels, contacted one intends, contacted one perceives. Thus these things too are moving and tottering, impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise." I am not sure what the "things" being referred to in the second sentence are - dhammas or dyads (or something else).] --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Ahh, good! I hadn't read to this point in your post when I made my comments above. What do you think of the possible alternative understanding I gave, Jon? Do you see any reasonable basis for it? -------------------------------------------------------- BTW, there is another sutta in which dhammas are described as "breaking up". This is done as part of a word association for the Pali term 'loka' ( 'world'). But I don't think such occasional descriptions should be read as asserting something that is not confirmed elsewhere. ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I think such usage occurs sufficiently in the suttas to give you pause, Jon. ------------------------------------------------------------ > It would seem to me that the practice of mindfulness would well highlight > that changing conditions are due to the interaction with other conditions, and > not something "self wrought through 'its own' characteristic." > But surly the Buddha spoke often of the characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta as characteristics of dhammas to be known by developed insight? Jon =============================== With metta, Howard #85139 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Apr 29, 2008 12:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: report on Bangkok and Kaeng Krajan upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 4/28/2008 7:10:11 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: Hi Howard > I would rather say, "If we are talking about the dhamma that is dana > then (like all dhammas) it is a momentary phenomenon, i.e., it exists > for but a moment." > > ================================= > What exactly is "a moment"? Does it have any duration at all? And if it > does have duration, in terms of what is that duration measured? > To be honest, I've never considered these questions (which I know you've raised before), perhaps because I don't see the relevance of them ;-)) For what it's worth, I think of a moment as being an extremely short duration of time. ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Sure - we all do. that is the imprecise, conventional meaning. ------------------------------------------------------ > Did the > Buddha teach about moments, and, if yes, where and in what manner? > I rely largely on the commentarial materials, which mention certain sutta passages that allude indirectly to the "momentary phenomena" idea. > We all know the informal use of the word 'moment'. Is that how you are > using it? In the usual, conventional way? Or do you mean something more > precise than that? > I think it'd be correct to say I'm using it in the usual, conventional way. What is your interest in this aspect? ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: My interest is in the fact that "moments" are talked about as if they were ultimates of some sort, whereas the fact is that a lot of mental "hand waving" is actually involved, and that is misleading. ------------------------------------------------------ Jon =========================== With metta, Howard #85140 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Apr 29, 2008 12:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] report on Bangkok and Kaeng Krajan upasaka_howard Hi, Jon (and Ken) - In a message dated 4/28/2008 7:15:52 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: Hi Howard >> There are never multiple cittas, and there is >> no series of related cittas! >> > > Right. > > =============================== > Hey, Jon! What do you mean "right"!? > Commentarial psychology certainly deals with streams of related cittas, > including streams of up to 17 cittas all with "the same" rupa as object. I > agree that there are never multiple mind states that *co-occur* in the same > mind stream, but the second half of what you are agreeing to, about series of > cittas, goes too far. There is but one citta at a time - no doubt about that, > but Ken seems to want to freeze the world at a single citta and banish anicca > from the tilkakkhana. > What is true, is that no series of paramattha dhammas is other than a > kind of collection of dhammas, and is not itself a paramattha dhamma. > I can see why you would question this, but I was taking KenH to be meaning something along the lines of your last paragraph, namely, that a series of paramattha dhammas is not itself a paramattha dhamma. ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Ahh, okay. If that was the gist of Ken's statement, then I agree with it. -------------------------------------------------- Jon =========================== With metta, Howard #85141 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Apr 29, 2008 12:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Direct Knowledge and Inference are Mutually Supportive upasaka_howard Hi, TG (and Jon) - In a message dated 4/28/2008 8:50:40 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, TGrand458@... writes: Hi Jon (and anybody that can help me recover from this craziness.) :-/ ============================== I'll be interested to read what comments you might have with regard to my reply to Jon. It seems to me that there may be some "right" on all sides, but that the matter is not quite as clear as you see to think. With metta, Howard #85142 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Apr 29, 2008 4:59 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Direct knowledge and Inference are Mutually Supportive scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, Thanks for the reply: S: "I don't think it's clear. Certainly there can be listening and kusala of various kinds to condition panna in future. All we can say is definitely not to the degree of jhana or lokuttara cittas ... Bhavanga citta can be the object of (developed) panna and yes, it's vipaka citta...You'll have seen from Robert's responses that this is a controversial area and I'm not sure that speculation about it is particularly useful. There are so many aspects of the teachings we can never know. In the end, the development of panna is about what can be known now, rather than what is in the texts." Scott: I can see that this comes to a sort of dead-end. I did find the following in Visuddhimagga; which comes at the question from a different angle. I quote from the PTS 'The Path of Purity' (pp. 636-637 - since I left my copy of ~Na.anamoli's translation at work). I'll quote this other translation tomorrow, for comparison. It states, in chapter XVII, Exposition of the Plane of Understanding: "For whatever state renders service to the standing or arising of a state is said to be its cause. Such words as condition, reason, base, coming-to-be, source, are the same in meaning, different in form. Thus it is 'condition' in the sense of a root, 'cause' in the sense of rendering service, in a word condition-cause is a state which renders service in the sense of a root. The significance for the teachers is, that it effects goodness in good states and so on, just as paddy-seeds the paddy, a blue-coloured stones the blue rays and so on. "But if this be so, there would be no conditioned-causality in material objects, which originate through condition. The fact is that condition does not effect goodness and so on, nor is it not cause. For this has been said: 'Of the states associated with root-condition and of material things which originate therefrom, root-condition is the cause by way of rendering service to them as root-condition', (Tikapa.t.thaana i,1). "The indeterminate nature of classes of unconditioned consciousness is effected without this condition. And the goodness and so on of classes of conditioned consciousness is bound up with wise attention and so on, not with the associated condition. And if the goodness and so on were by nature in the associated conditions, it would be bound up with the condition in the condition-associated states; (thus) absence of greed would be either good or indeterminate, but because, it being both good and indifferent, the goodness and so on would have to be looked for among the conditions as among the associated states. There is no contradiction if, instead of taking condition to mean roots by virtue of their effecting goodness and so on, we take them to mean roots by virtue of their effecting a fixed position. For those states which are actually caused by conditions are firm and well-fixed like firmly rooted trees; those which are not conditioned are not well-fixed like watery plants and so on (which have roots) of the size of a sesame seed. Thus the clause 'which renders service in the sense of root' is to be understood as a state caused by the condition which renders service by effecting a fixed condition." Scott: It would seem that 'rootedness' of patisandhi-citta would refer to that particular moment of consciousness alone (and the bhavanga cittas arising during that given existence). Perhaps no, two, or three roots applies only to these sorts of consciousness. In the above it is noted that '...the goodness and so on of classes of conditioned consciousness is bound up with wise attention and so on, not with the associated condition...'. Does this suggest that, while there may be some sort of influence rendered by the presence, absence, or relative strength of pa~n~naa as root for patisandhi citta, it is mental factors like yoniso manasikara arising 'now' which serve as condition for whatever level of pa~n~naa might arise? Sincerely, Scott. #85143 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Apr 29, 2008 1:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhavanga chitta upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 4/29/2008 3:57:50 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: p.s I know Jon wished you a happy birthday for last Friday from both of us, but let me add a belated one of my own! Any special celebration with your family this year? ============================== Thanks for your birthday greeting! :-) No, no special family (or friends) celebration - just a pleasant evening spent together with our younger son & his wife. Two years from now, should I still be around, that will be a time for more of a celebration. :-) With metta, Howard #85144 From: han tun Date: Tue Apr 29, 2008 5:33 am Subject: Patthaana (34) hantun1 Patthana (34) Dear Friends, We are studying (6) Conascence Condition (sahajaata-paccaya). This Condition is divided into six types. We had taken up the first four types. We will now take up the fifth type. The Fifth type: (5) Mahaabhuutaa upaadaaruupaanam sahajaata-paccayena paccayo. The great primaries are related to derived matters by conascence condition. The great primaries are four. They are: (1) pathavii = earth element (2) aapo = water element (3) tejo = heat element (4) vaayo = wind element The derived matters are 24 ruupas that are derived from the above four great primaries. They are: (1) cakkhu-pasaada = sensitive part of the eye (2) sota-pasaada = sensitive part of the ear (3) ghaana-pasaada = sensitive part of the nose (4) jivhaa-pasaada = sensitive part of the tongue (5) kaaya-pasaada = sensitive part of the body (6) ruupa-arammana = visible form (vanna) (7) sadda-arammana = sound (sadda) (8) gandha-arammana = smell (gandha) (9) rasa-arammana = taste (rasa) (10) itthi-bhaava = femininity (11) purisa-bhaava = masculinity (12) hadaya-vatthu = heart-base (13) jivita-ruupa = life-faculty (14) aahaara-ruupa = nutriment (ojaa) (15) pariccheda-ruupa = space element (aakaasa-dhaatu) (16) kaaya-vinnatti = bodily intimation (17) vaci-vinnatti = vocal intimation (18) ruupassa-lahutaa = physical lightness or buoyancy (19) ruupassa-mudutaa = physical elasticity or malleability (20) ruupassa-kammannataa = physical adaptability (21) upacaaya-ruupa = arising of ruupa at the moment of conception and continued arising till the required ruupas in life are completely formed (22) santati-ruupa = subsequent arising of ruupas throughout the life (23) jarataa-ruupa = decay (24) aniccataa-ruupa = dissolution or impermanence The 24 derived matters are derived from, or dependent upon, the four great primaries. The four great primaries and the derived matters arise at the same time. So they are sahajaata. But the four great primaries are not derived from, or dependent upon, the derived matters. It is like one-way traffic. So they are not a~n~nama~n~na, and that’s why you will not find this type in the next Condition: (7) Mutuality Condition (a~n~nama~n~na-paccaya) To be continued. metta, Han #85145 From: "connie" Date: Tue Apr 29, 2008 6:45 am Subject: Perfections Corner (137) nichiconn Dear Friends, ch.2 continues: We may consider the perfections that we are beginning to develop. We are interested in listening to the Dhamma and learning about the practice in accordance with the Dhamma. We need the perfection of energy, viriya, in order to be able to listen. If there is no energy or right effort, we do not come to listen to the Dhamma, but we rather listen to another subject that gives us pleasure and entertainment. When we listen to the Dhamma we also need the perfection of patience, khanti, because sometimes we have to listen to what does not interest us so much. Without patience we cannot develop the other perfections such as the perfection of morality, siila. Without the perfection of siila we shall transgress morality by our deeds and speech. It is most important with whom we associate. The ascetic Akitti said with regard to himself that he did not wish to see, to hear or to be close to fools. The Commentary to the "Basket of Conduct" compares association with fools to the tasting of water that has a bitter, unpleasant flavour, and association with wise persons to the tasting of sweet water. Also the Bodhisatta had at times to associate with fools. For example, during one of his lives the Bodhisatta belonged to a clan of people with wrong view. In his life as the brahmin youth Jotipaala he was born into a family of people who had wrong view and no confidence in the Buddha *2. *2 See Middle Length Sayings II, no. 81, On Gha.tiikaara. Jotipaala followed his parents in their disdain of the Buddha. The brahmins who had wrong view had no confidence in the Buddha Kassapa, who was the last Buddha before the Buddha Gotama. The Commentary to the "Discourse on Gha.tikaara", Middle Length Sayings, the "Papa~ncasuudanii", states that Bodhisatta had accumulated the perfections until his life as Jotipaala, when he came into contact with people of wrong view. The Commentary compares the accumulated perfections to a brightly shining fire which during that life came into contact with water and was therefore extinguished by it so that the rays of light disappeared and only black charcoal was left *1. *1 See also "Milinda's Questions" II, The Dilemmas, Fifth Division, 6: Birth as Jotipaala. connie #85146 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Apr 29, 2008 7:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] doubts nilovg Dear Luke, Bernard and other new comers, wellcome to this list. I just returned. Luke, I read your keen questions on the practice and Sarah's answers. Looking forward to more, Nina. Op 29-apr-2008, om 10:49 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > p.s Nina will also be delighted to meet you, Bernard and any other > newcomers with a keen interest in Dhamma/Abhidhamma when she > returns from > her long weekend away. #85147 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Apr 29, 2008 7:15 am Subject: Metta, Ch 3, no 1. nilovg (This book written in Thai by Sujin Boriharnwanaket was translated by me). Chapter 3. Practice in daily life Mettå-citta can arise without reciting texts about mettå. We find an example of this fact in the “Tundila Jåtaka” (III, no. 388). We read in the Commentary to this Jåtaka that the Buddha told this story while he was at Jetavana. There was a bhikkhu who had great fear of death. He was frightened when he heard even a branch move, a stick falling or the call of a bird or another animal. The monks assembled in the Hall of Truth and spoke about that monk who was so frightened of death. They said, “now to beings in this world death is certain, life uncertain, and should this not be wisely born in mind?” The Buddha asked them what the subject of their conversation was and then said that that bhikkhu was afraid of death not only in this life, but also in a former life. We then read in the Tundila Jåtaka that a long time ago in Varånasí the Bodhisatta was conceived by a wild sow. In due time the sow gave birth to two male young. One day she took them to a pit where they lay down. An old woman came home from the cotton field with a basket of cotton, and was tapping the ground with her stick. The sow heard the sound and in fear of death left her young and ran away. The old woman took the two young pigs home in order to look after them and she called the bigger one, who was the Bodhisatta, Mahåtundila (big- snout) and the smaller one Cullatundila (little-snout). She brought them up and treated them as her own children, but she loved Mahåtundila more than Cullatundila. They grew up and became fat. One day there were some young men who liked to eat pork meat, but they did not know where to get it. They wanted to buy the pigs from the old woman, but she said that she could not sell them since she loved them and considered them as her children. The young men did not give up and offered more money, but she did not want to sell them. Then they made her drink liquor and when she was drunk they persuaded her again to sell her pigs. She then agreed to sell only the small pig, not the big one. She took food and called Cullatundila, the smaller pig. She had always called Mahåtundila first, and thus Mahåtundila suspected that there was danger. Cullatundila saw that the trough was full of food and he noticed that his mistress was standing nearby and that there were also many men, with nooses in their hands. He became very frightened and did not want to eat. He ran away to his brother, shaking with fear. Mahåtundila comforted him and said that he should eat and that he should not be sad. He explained that they were fattened for their flesh’s sake. He said that all beings who are born in this world must die, that nobody could escape death. Every being, no matter whether his flesh is eatable or not eatable, must die. He said that their mother was their refuge before, but that they now had no refuge anymore. They should not have any fear and plunge in the crystal pool, to wash the stains of sweat away, they would find new ointment whose fragrance never can decay. We read that Mahåtundila considered the ten perfections and set the perfection of mettå before him as his guide. The people who heard him preach were impressed that Mahåtundila comforted his brother and then mettå and compassion arose within them. The drunkenness left the old woman and the young men and they threw away their nooses as they stood listening to the Dhamma. ****** Nina. _____ #85148 From: TGrand458@... Date: Tue Apr 29, 2008 4:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Direct Knowledge and Inference are Mutually Supportive TGrand458@... Hi Howard I have to say I'm disappointed. Simply because the idea of a "dyad" (or triad) moving and tottering, as if that can be separated from the components of said "dyad," is a leap of "view-making" that I didn't think a solid understanding of dependent origination principles would be able to make. Phenomena are impermanent because of the mutual interaction of all conditioned phenomena. Hence the Buddha's analogies of the elements wearing away a sailboat, a cloth rubbing to wear away a rock, and adze handle wearing away after repeated use, etc. From the smallest possible thing to consider, to the largest possible condition to consider, its all altering due to the interaction of conditions. This goes for physical, mental, experiential. I do realize, that due to your "radical phenomenology," there are some things in the Suttas that don't settle well with you as well. To me, that's always a good reason for caution. BTW, regarding your next post, The matter is as clear as I think. Its just not clear to you guys. ;-) TG #85149 From: "Walter Horn" Date: Tue Apr 29, 2008 10:11 am Subject: Re: Metta, Ch 3, no 1. walterhorn Dear Nina, Thanks for reproducing the story of the two pigs and the fear of dying. I enjoyed it very much. Most of it seems to be about the needlessness--harm even--connected with the fear of dying. But what do you make of the last sentence? To wit: "The drunkenness left the old woman and the young men and they threw away their nooses as they stood listening to the Dhamma." W What do you think we should we take from that? Can listening to the Dhamma remove hunger (for food) as well as drunkenness? Many thanks, Walto #85150 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Apr 29, 2008 7:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Direct Knowledge and Inference are Mutually Supportive upasaka_howard Hi, TG - In a message dated 4/29/2008 11:59:19 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, TGrand458@... writes: Hi Howard I have to say I'm disappointed. Simply because the idea of a "dyad" (or triad) moving and tottering, as if that can be separated from the components of said "dyad," is a leap of "view-making" that I didn't think a solid understanding of dependent origination principles would be able to make. ------------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't think you need be disappointed. I accept your "gradualism" (also understandable as instantaneous change) as regards paramattha dhammas, and I do not support the discrete, staccato, freeze-frame perspective. What you seem not to accept is the qualitative difference in behavior between paramattha dhammas and aggregations of same. I see the behavior of the whole as *more* than the sum of the behavior its parts, even though it is entirely dependent on its parts. --------------------------------------------------- Phenomena are impermanent because of the mutual interaction of all conditioned phenomena. Hence the Buddha's analogies of the elements wearing away a sailboat, a cloth rubbing to wear away a rock, and adze handle wearing away after repeated use, etc. From the smallest possible thing to consider, to the largest possible condition to consider, its all altering due to the interaction of conditions. This goes for physical, mental, experiential. ------------------------------------------------- Howard: And what is there of this that you think I take exception to? What the Buddha did say explicitly is that whatever arises, ceases. He was not so explicit as to the "mechanism" for this, but mutual interaction is surely involved, IMO. ------------------------------------------------- I do realize, that due to your "radical phenomenology," there are some things in the Suttas that don't settle well with you as well. To me, that's always a good reason for caution. --------------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't see my phenomenalism as having a bearing on this matter. --------------------------------------------------- BTW, regarding your next post, The matter is as clear as I think. Its just not clear to you guys. ;-) --------------------------------------------------- Howard: What is clear to someone isn't necessarily correct. (It may be correct, but that is not a given.) --------------------------------------------------- TG =========================== With metta, Howard #85151 From: "connie" Date: Tue Apr 29, 2008 11:52 am Subject: Internet Archive (archive.org) nichiconn Dear colette, Just made a few notes so I'd have a better idea of what the pdf's I found at the archive.org actually are & thought you might find it useful as well. If not, please ignore. connie ABuddhistManual.doc CAFRD's xltn of Dhammasangani ahistoryofpalili035454mbp.pdf A History of Pali Literature, vol.2 of 2 bookofdiscipline02hornuoft_bw.pdf Dialogues vol.1 bookofdiscipline03hornuoft_bw.pdf Dialogues vol.2 bookofdiscipline04hornuoft_bw.pdf Dialogues vol.3 bookofdiscipline05hornuoft_bw.pdf Dialogues vol.4 bookofdiscipline08hornuoft_bw.pdf Minor Anthologies vol.2 bookofdiscipline10hornuoft_bw.pdf Book of the Discipline vol.1 bookofdiscipline14hornuoft_bw.pdf Book of the Discipline vol.4 bookofdiscipline15hornuoft_bw.pdf Woven Cadences = Sutta Nipaata bookofdiscipline17hornuoft_bw.pdf History of the Buddha's Religion / Sasanavamsa buddhism014617mbp.pdf Buddhism: A Study of the Buddhist Norm - CAFRD buddhism029619mbp.pdf Buddhism - Monier Williams (comparative religion) buddhistbirth00daviuoft.pdf Jataka/Nidana Katha TWRD, rev-CAFRD buddhistbirthsto01daviuoft_bw.pdf Jataka TWRD vol.1 buddhistlegends01burluoft_bw.pdf Dhp.Cy. Burlingame vol.1 of 3 buddhistlegends02burluoft_bw.pdf Dhp.Cy. Burlingame vol.2 of 3 buddhistlegends03burluoft_bw.pdf Dhp.Cy. Burlingame vol.3 of 3 buddhistparables00burl.pdf Burlingame, various sources buddhistsuttas00daviuoft_bw.pdf TWRD, 7 suttas (SBE vol.11) burmesehistorian00boderich_bw.pdf Bode's dissertation earlybuddhism014733mbp.pdf Early Buddhism - TWRD handbookofpalibe00franuoft_bw.pdf Frankfurter - pali grammar handfulofleaves01thanmiss.pdf TB vol.1 anthology - DN, MN handfulofleaves02thanarch.pdf TB vol.3 anthology - AN historicalgleani00lawbuoft.pdf B.C. Law - Historical Gleanings (6 essays) lifeworkofbuddha00lawbuoft_bw.pdf B.C. Law - Life & Works of Buddhaghosa mahvansirj01uphauoft_bw.pdf Mahavansi, Raja Ratnacari & Raja Vali vol.1 mahvansirj02uphauoft_bw.pdf "" vol.2 of 3 mahvansirj03uphauoft_bw.pdf "" vol.3 of 3 p1sacredbooksofb20londuoft_bw.pdf Book of the Discipline vol.2 p2sacredbooksofb20londuoft_bw.pdf Book of the Discipline vol.3 p3sacredbooksofb20londuoft_bw.pdf Book of the Discipline vol.5 pathofpuritybein01budduoft_bw.pdf Pe Maung Tin - vol.1 of 3 Vsm xltn questionsofkingm028266mbp.pdf (sbe) books 1-4 questionsofkingm02daviuoft_bw.pdf (sbe 36) books 4-7 sacredbookseast17mulluoft.pdf (sbe 45) Gaina Sutras part 2 sacredbooksofbud01londuoft_bw.pdf Garland of Birth Stories - A.Sura sacredbooksofbud16londuoft_bw.pdf Mahaavastu, vol.1 - Jones sacredbooksofbud18londuoft_bw.pdf Mahaavastu, vol.2 sacredbooksofbud19londuoft_bw.pdf Mahaavastu, vol.3 sacredbooksofbud21londuoft_bw.pdf Inception of Discipline & Vinaya Nidaana #85152 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Apr 29, 2008 11:55 am Subject: Re:Q. [dsg] Re: Metta, Ch 3, no 1. nilovg Dear Walto, I like your questions. Op 29-apr-2008, om 19:11 heeft Walter Horn het volgende geschreven: > Most of it seems to be about the needlessness--harm even--connected > with the fear of dying. But what do you make of the last sentence? > To wit: "The drunkenness left the old woman and the young men and > they threw away their nooses as they stood listening to the Dhamma." > > > What do you think we should we take from that? Can listening to the > Dhamma remove hunger (for food) as well as drunkenness? ------- N: We read that Mahåtundila considered the ten perfections and set the perfection of mettå before him as his guide. The people who heard him preach were impressed that Mahåtundila comforted his brother and then mettå and compassion arose within them. The drunkenness left the old woman and the young men and they threw away their nooses as they stood listening to the Dhamma. Mahatundila's words were inspired by metta and compassion, and this was a condition for the listeners to have metta and compassion as well. I imagine that piiti, enthusiasm could arise for them. This is the power of kusala and especially of understanding, pa~n~naa, and at such a moment who thinks of food? This also counteracts the bad effect of liquor. Kusala wins. This Jataka also makes me recall what was discussed in a Thai session about fear of old age and being troubled about the death of beloved ones. Later on when I have time I shall type it out, I transcribed it from my tape. I posed a question about this subject and after that a friend whose wife has cancer spoke out. Kh Sujin spoke about knowing this moment that falls away and is dukkha. The future has not come but it will be like this moment. It is so important to understand this moment whatever it may be. Dukkha is heavy for everybody. What arises must fall away it cannot be altered. Later on more. Nina. #85153 From: TGrand458@... Date: Tue Apr 29, 2008 8:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Direct Knowledge and Inference are Mutually Supportive TGrand458@... Hi Howard In a message dated 4/29/2008 12:04:32 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, upasaka@... writes: Hi, TG - In a message dated 4/29/2008 11:59:19 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, _TGrand458@..._ (mailto:TGrand458@...) writes: Hi Howard I have to say I'm disappointed. Simply because the idea of a "dyad" (or triad) moving and tottering, as if that can be separated from the components of said "dyad," is a leap of "view-making" that I didn't think a solid understanding of dependent origination principles would be able to make. ------------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't think you need be disappointed. I accept your "gradualism" (also understandable as instantaneous change) as regards paramattha dhammas, and I do not support the discrete, staccato, freeze-frame perspective. What you seem not to accept is the qualitative difference in behavior between paramattha dhammas and aggregations of same. I see the behavior of the whole as *more* than the sum of the behavior its parts, even though it is entirely dependent on its parts. ...................................................... TG: Yea, this is a big departure between you and I. I see the behavior of "conditionality" the same across the board. I don't believe in Paramattha Dhammas. ....................................................... --------------------------------------------------- Phenomena are impermanent because of the mutual interaction of all conditioned phenomena. Hence the Buddha's analogies of the elements wearing away a sailboat, a cloth rubbing to wear away a rock, and adze handle wearing away after repeated use, etc. From the smallest possible thing to consider, to the largest possible condition to consider, its all altering due to the interaction of conditions. This goes for physical, mental, experiential. ------------------------------------------------- Howard: And what is there of this that you think I take exception to? ..................................................... TG: It seems to me to contradict your above statement...of splitting conditionality into groups of behavior. ......................................................... What the Buddha did say explicitly is that whatever arises, ceases. He was not so explicit as to the "mechanism" for this, but mutual interaction is surely involved, IMO. ------------------------------------------------- I do realize, that due to your "radical phenomenology,I do realize, tha things in the Suttas that don't settle well with you as well. To me, that's always a good reason for caution. --------------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't see my phenomenalism as having a bearing on this matter. --------------------------------------------------- BTW, regarding your next post, The matter is as clear as I think. Its just not clear to you guys. ;-) --------------------------------------------------- Howard: What is clear to someone isn't necessarily correct. (It may be correct, but that is not a given.) ...................................................... TG: Of course. But in this case, I'll have to give myself a pass. LOL TG OUT --------------------------------------------------- TG =========================== #85154 From: "Walter Horn" Date: Tue Apr 29, 2008 12:44 pm Subject: Re:Q. [dsg] Re: Metta, Ch 3, no 1. walterhorn Dear Nina, > The future has not come > but it will be like this moment. It is so important to understand > this moment whatever it may be. Dukkha is heavy for everybody. What > arises must fall away it cannot be altered. Yes. It seems there's no stopping it. > Later on more. I'll look forward to it! > > I like your questions. Thanks. I like your answers. Best, Walto #85155 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Apr 29, 2008 9:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Direct Knowledge and Inference are Mutually Supportive upasaka_howard Hi, TG - In a message dated 4/29/2008 3:08:55 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, TGrand458@... writes: Howard: What is clear to someone isn't necessarily correct. (It may be correct, but that is not a given.) ...................................................... TG: Of course. But in this case, I'll have to give myself a pass. LOL --------------------------------------------------- Howard: LOLOL! ======================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream/ (From the Diamond Sutra) #85156 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Apr 29, 2008 12:04 pm Subject: Some Clues... bhikkhu0 Friends: Some Clues about the Elemental & Fundamental Mentality creating all Existence: Observer Participation: The world emerges, when it is observed! The world is not 'out there' independent of the mind, but it is indeed synthesized by a mass-collective asking of yes-no questioning by many being’s observation, through an immense number of prior universes passing from big bang to implosion (big crunch)! This creation by creating binary information can be epitomized in the dogma: - It from Bit - !!! John Archibald Wheeler - Quantum Physicist, Princeton. Information is Physical and not Subjective: Any gain in information (which is a measure of order) induces a decrease in entropy (which is a thermodynamic measure of disorder)! The creation and transfer of information happening at any measurement, thus changes the energetic state & thus future development of the observed system! Observation itself - by definition, per se - thus influence, transform & change the observed object... Modified freely after W.H. Zurek. Quantum Physicist, Los Alamos. Appearance by intentional determination of directed attention: We are actually bringing about, what seems to be happening to us! Thomas Mann. Philosopher What Exists is identical with the thought that recognizes it! Parmenides of Elea (515-450 BC) Phenomena appears and are created by the very act of directing attention to them. This advertence is deliberate and intentional. The ‘scene’ or ‘image’ appears only, when actually looking at it! Just Modes of Conceptualization: Time and space are not conditions in which we live, but modes by which we think... Albert Einstein. Time and space are not (objective) things, but (mentally imposed) orders of things... Leibniz Just Cause and Effect: Intentional action (karma = Kamma) is decisive information about to do this & not that. This information creation reduces the universal thermodynamic entropy (degree of disorder)... This newly created order limits, restricts & thus affects the future evolution of the universal system. The probability of certain future events happening have thereby been increased, while the probability of other future events have been reduced. Any intention by any being thereby modifies and narrows the potentiality of the universe - seen as a giant network of cause and effect- which then naturally later falls out and manifests as another - now intentionally changed - actuality... The moral efficacy of kamma = karma = action is therefore not a religious metaphysical postulate, but a simple and ultra-basic inevitable consequence of the mentally derived nature of the universe itself... Morality is thus a natural Law on par with gravity: Do good and get pleasure (Sukha)... Do evil and get pain (Dukkha)... ORIGIN Intention always comes first Intention is of all states the primer By intention are all things initiated By thought of mind are all phenomena formed So - if with good intention one thinks, speaks or acts Joy surely follows one like the never-leaving shadow However!!! - if with evil intention one thinks, speaks or acts Pain certainly follows one like the wheel follows the car. Dhammapada 1 + 2 The participant Observer: The universe as a self-excited circuit: Starting from small (thin right line) it gradually grows denser (thick left line) by observers participating is creation. Illustration by John Archibald Wheeler. More on Maxwell's Demon: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxwell%27s_demon Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest * Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka :-) #85157 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Apr 29, 2008 4:12 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] report on Bangkok and Kaeng Krajan kenhowardau Hi Howard (and Jon), --------- Howard: > > > There is but one citta at a time - no doubt about that, > but Ken seems to want to freeze the world at a single citta and banish anicca from the tilkakkhana. > What is true, is that no series of paramattha dhammas is other than kind of collection of dhammas, and is not itself a paramattha dhamma. > Jon: > > I can see why you would question this, but I was taking KenH to be meaning something along the lines of your last paragraph, namely, that a series of paramattha dhammas is not itself a paramattha dhamma. Howard: > Ahh, okay. If that was the gist of Ken's statement, then I agree with it. -------------------------------------------------- The texts explain that the Ariyan Eightfold Path exists in a single moment. Right Understanding, Right Effort and all the other path factors arise and perform their functions *in a single moment of path consciousness.* Some of us agree on this vital point while others do not. Some are undecided. When we do agree with the single-moment explanation we must also agree that *all* reality - not just enlightenment - takes place in a single moment. We can no longer be of the opinion that the effort to pick up a pencil, for example, is real. That sort of effort is just a concept. If this way of understanding means "wanting to freeze the world at a single citta" then I am guilty as charged. :-) However, I doubt that the idea of freezing could be very helpful in understanding the single-moment theory. All conditioned dhammas are inherently impermanent (anicca) and so right understanding could never see them as being frozen. It might be better just to say that the presently arisen dhammas were 'the all.' Ken H #85158 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Apr 29, 2008 8:59 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] bodily feeling in satipatthana lbidd2 Hi Sarah, Sarah: "There are many different classifications of feelings, but all feelings (vedana) are included." Larry: How does painful bodily feeling fit into the classifications of worldly and spiritual feeling? It can't be a joyful worldly feeling and it can't be worldly grief because that is concerned with "non-acquisition". It could be an object of insight, but if so, the feeling we are concerned with is the joy, grief or equanimity that arises with that insight. Not the painful bodily feeling that is the object of that insight. This is complicated. The object of satipatthana, in this case, is the feeling that arises with insight, regardless of the object of insight. Also painful bodily feeling could be the object of ignorance. Here the object of satipatthana is neutral feeling that arises with ignorance. See MN 137.9-15 for a detailed explanation. Painful bodily feeling is neither joy, grief, nor equanimity. Therefore it isn't included in "worldly" or "spiritual" feeling. This section of the Satipatthana Sutta begins with, "when feeling a pleasant feeling, a bhikkhu understands: 'I feel a pleasant feeling'; when feeling a painful feeling, he understands: 'I feel a painful feeling'... I agree here we could say this includes any kind of pleasant or painful feeling, but I didn't see any commentarial clarification regarding how any kind of feeling is encompassed as "worldly" or "spiritual". Perhaps this limited classification ties into the classifications of mind (citta) in terms of various wholesome and unwholesome volitional consciousnesses but not resultant consciousnesses. Even then, we are leaving out painful feeling that arises with dosa and pleasant and neutral feelings that arise with various other wholesome consciousnesses. One could say everything is included in the last satipatthana (mindfulness of dhamma). Or one might say mindfulness of dhamma is mindfulness of a panoramic view from various perspectives. I tried to see if Mr. Goenka had anything to say about this peculiarity, but I couldn't find anything. You might research this in your spare time :-) No doubt the answer has to be "all feelings are included", but that isn't what it says. Larry #85159 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Tue Apr 29, 2008 9:25 pm Subject: If patisandhi-citta ahetuka then impossible for nana-sampayuttum citta? rjkjp1 Dear Sarah, When you suggest that a being whose patisandhi-citta is ahetuka kusala vipaka cannot then have nana-sampayuttum citta arise in that life, I wonder if, for example, a blind from birth person could then ever have ditthiujukamma ( one of the bhāvanāmayaṃ puññakiriyavatthu)? When a blind person - if ahetuka- listens to the teachings and gains faith and straightens their views is this without any panna or is it that they are actually incapable of straightening view, and it is merely a type of saddha without any wisdom involved? Robert #85160 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Apr 29, 2008 11:24 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] If patisandhi-citta ahetuka then impossible for nana-sampayuttum citta? sarahprocter... Dear Robert, --- rjkjp1 wrote: > Dear Sarah, > When you suggest that a being whose patisandhi-citta is ahetuka kusala > vipaka cannot then have nana-sampayuttum citta arise in that life, .... S: This isn't quite what I said. I'd prefer my words to be quoted as I try to be careful not to make groundless suggestions. To repeat: > >R: I think a being with no roots can still develop panna to some degree. > ... > S: I'll be interested to see any textual quote to support this. > ... > >R ...:Even animals listen to >>Dhamma and in their next rebirth can attain magga. > ... > S: Again, I'll be interested to see the textual support for panna being > developed in animals. S: You then gave the example of the bats in the Atthasalini which I disagreed with as necessarily being an example of animals developing panna. .... >R:I > wonder if, for example, a blind from birth person could then ever have > ditthiujukamma ( one of the bhâvanâmayaṃ > puññakiriyavatthu)? .... S: Of course, we can't ever know whether the person apparently blind from birth was born with no roots (ahetuka patisandhi citta) and again, I don't think it's helpful to speculate. Often the handicap develops during the pregnancy or at conventional birth. Again, I'd be glad to see any textual support for the possibility of panna developing in the case of beings with ahetuka patisandhi citta. Otherwise, I think it's only speculation on our part. Metta, Sarah ======== #85161 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Apr 30, 2008 12:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Metta, Ch 2, no 2. sarahprocter... Dear Connie & Walto, --- connie wrote: > "Brahman, I do not call a man a monk merely because he receives alms. > For a man who adopts and practices all the forms is not therefore a > monk. But he that weighs well all the Aggregates of Being and acts > accordingly, he is a monk indeed." > Buddhist Legends - vol. 3, p.145 .... S: I checked the Pali for the last sentence and it seems to be this: "Yo pana sabbasa"nkhaaresu sa"nkhaaya carati, so bhikkhu naamaa’’ti" Connie, how would you translate it? Something along the lines of: "having considered all conditioned dhammas, he practises accordingly and can be called a bhikkhu."?? ... S: I also liked the following which Han wrote: "Here, Sayadaw said bhikkhu means not only the monks but it includes everybody who is afraid of samsara and who wants to escape from it. To support the Sayadaw's point of view, please refer to Vism. I.7: "He sees fear (bhayamnikkhati) in the round of rebirths, thus he is a bhikkhu." The Pali for this is: "Sa.msaare bhaya.m ikkhatii ti bhikkhu." Metta, Sarah ===== #85162 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Apr 30, 2008 12:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Metta, Ch 2, no 2. sarahprocter... Hi Walto, Mike (& Nina), S: You were talking about preparations, such as 'techniques of relaxation' > > W: Why couldn't they be useful to prepare our minds--as, > > say, when someone insults us (or a loved one dies), we > > must compose ourselves before we can really do or think > > anything else? ... >M: As I understand it, when results (vipakka) from past kamma > occur, they occur at any time and with their own unique > conditions, then cease when the conditions supporting them > cease. Habitual kamma can affect how we react but won't > necessarily do so. Any underlying proclivity or disposition > (anusaya)--sometimes referred to as 'subtle akusala'--that > may be temporarily suppressed by metta, for example, can > return undiminished at any time when the conditions exist > for its return. Of the beautiful mental factors, > understanding (pa~n~naa) alone has the ability to eradicate > unwholesome underlying tendencies. Also, when understanding > is cultivated all the other beautiful universal mental > factors are cultivated with it--understanding doesn't arise > without them. This and its ability to eradicate anusaya > makes understanding dimensionally superior to all the other > beautiful factors, as I see it. .... S: I think what you write is very true, Mike. I was thinking about Walto's example of 'when a loved one dies' above and Mike's stress on the underlying tendencies and disposition in terms of responses. Nina, you'll remember Bron from Australia who came with me to visit you in Holland in the late 70's. You didn't know her husband (of the last 25+ years), but he also had a keen interest in Buddhism and we were very fond of him. We just heard that he just stopped breathing in his sleep a few days ago and peacefully died in her arms as she waited for the ambulance. He was 83 years old. I don't think there was any inkling of any problem, but apparently she's responded very calmly. We never know, however, from moment to moment what the response will be. As Mike says, only right understanding can eradicated the unwholesome tendencies. ... >M:....Nowhere > outside of the Buddhadhamma, though, is the ultimate goal > seen as the breaking of the cycle of birth and death--the > chain of conditioned origination--by means of insight into > the three (or at least one of the three) characteristics of > all dhammas--unsatisfactoriness, impermanence and voidness > of self (as far as I know). This is a crucial difference, > since in the Buddhadhamma there is no self to go to the > promised land or to have everlasting life or whatever. .... S: Again, this is well said. We're fortunate to have the opportunity to really consider these truths. I know this is what will be giving our friend, Bron, strength at this time. Thanks again for all the helpful reminders. Metta, Sarah ========= #85163 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Wed Apr 30, 2008 12:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] If patisandhi-citta ahetuka then impossible for nana-sampayuttum citta? rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Robert, > > --- rjkjp1 wrote: > > > Dear Sarah, > > When you suggest that a being whose patisandhi-citta is ahetuka kusala > > vipaka cannot then have nana-sampayuttum citta arise in that life, > .... > S: This isn't quite what I said. I'd prefer my words to be quoted as I try > to be careful not to make groundless suggestions. > > ++++ Dear Sarah Ok, when you wrote, S: "As for no roots at rebirth, we know this is the case in very weak > kusala vipaka and there is definite handicap of some kind from that > first moment. So, I wouldn't go so far as to say panna can still be > developed. I haven't seen any indication about this. Let me know if > you do, but I don't think you will:-)." I had the idea that by saying "I don't think you will" and "I wouldn't go so far as to say panna can still be developed" meant that you thought panna couldn't be developed and there would be no indication in the texts because of this. Sorry for the misunderstanding. Robert #85164 From: "szmicio" Date: Wed Apr 30, 2008 1:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] doubts szmicio dear Nina, Sarah and Larry thanx very much for help. I think my mind is still looking for something to control and cannot accept this moment. So much tanha. Please tell my something about dvaras. If we consider the self just only as coarising of nama and rupa takes place in six senses is it the way to Nibbana? bye Lukas #85165 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Apr 30, 2008 2:34 am Subject: Metta, Ch 3, no 2. nilovg Dear friends, These men did not have to recite first so that mettå could arise, mettå arose because of its own conditions. We read that Cullatundila asked his brother: But what is that fair crystal pool, And what the stains of sweat, I pray? And what the ointment wonderful, Whose fragrance never can decay? Mahåtundila answered: Dhamma is the fair crystal pool, Akusala is the stain of sweat, they say: Virtue’s the ointment wonderful, Whose fragrance never will decay. Kusala dhammas are like the fair crystal pool because they can purify one from akusala which is like the stain of sweat. Síla is like the ointment whose fragrance never can decay because when there is síla one does not harm anybody or do anything which is disagreeable to others. We read that Mahåtundila said that those who are fools delight in akusala, whereas those who are heedful do not take to what is unwholesome. He exhorted beings not to be sad when they had to die. When the Buddha had told the story of the former life of that bhikkhu, he said that Mahåtundila was he himself in one of his former lives as Bodhisatta and that Cullatundila was the bhikkhu who was afraid of death. Thus we see that mettå can arise without reciting texts. Thinking of the words which are recited arises because of conditions. People believe that they should recite because they are used to reciting all the time. When they have such an idea it is a condition to think of the words they often recite. However, if someone develops mettå there is sati-sampajañña which considers the characteristic of mettå, and this is the opposite of akusala dhamma. When we develop mettå-citta time and again there can gradually be more mettå. Thus, we should consider and study with awareness the characteristic of mettå as it is explained by the Buddha in many different ways. We should remember that mettå will be more powerful if it is truly developed whenever there is an opportunity for its application. Mettå can become stronger and it can arise more often if we understand the benefit of mettå. Its arising is not conditioned by the reciting of texts for a long time. ******** Nina. #85166 From: "colette" Date: Wed Apr 30, 2008 2:16 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Direct knowledge and Inference are Mutually Supportive ksheri3 Hi Scott, Sarah, Jon, Howard, et al, I've been reading this thread for the past ten minutes and I'm very interested BTW "craziness" was that person refering to my jest using the terminology "scrambled brains"? I forwarded this post here to myself so that I can meditate on it later I was very interested in the last two paragraphs starting with: > "The indeterminate nature of classes of unconditioned consciousness is > effected without this condition. And the goodness ... The got to Scott's reply, the last paragraph. Lets all go there right now please. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Dear Sarah, > > Thanks for the reply: > > S: "I don't think it's clear. Certainly there can be listening and > kusala of various kinds to condition panna in future. All we can say > is definitely not to the degree of jhana or lokuttara cittas ... > Bhavanga citta can be the object of (developed) panna and yes, it's > vipaka citta...You'll have seen from Robert's responses that this is a > controversial area and I'm not sure that speculation about it is > particularly useful. There are so many aspects of the teachings we > can never know. In the end, the development of panna is about what can > be known now, rather than what is in the texts." > > Scott: I can see that this comes to a sort of dead-end. I did find > the following in Visuddhimagga; which comes at the question from a > different angle. I quote from the PTS 'The Path of Purity' (pp. > 636-637 - since I left my copy of ~Na.anamoli's translation at work). > I'll quote this other translation tomorrow, for comparison. It > states, in chapter XVII, Exposition of the Plane of Understanding: > > "For whatever state renders service to the standing or arising of a > state is said to be its cause. Such words as condition, reason, base, > coming-to-be, source, are the same in meaning, different in form. > Thus it is 'condition' in the sense of a root, 'cause' in the sense of > rendering service, in a word condition-cause is a state which renders > service in the sense of a root. The significance for the teachers is, > that it effects goodness in good states and so on, just as paddy- seeds > the paddy, a blue-coloured stones the blue rays and so on. > > "But if this be so, there would be no conditioned-causality in > material objects, which originate through condition. The fact is that > condition does not effect goodness and so on, nor is it not cause. > For this has been said: 'Of the states associated with root- condition > and of material things which originate therefrom, root-condition is > the cause by way of rendering service to them as root-condition', > (Tikapa.t.thaana i,1). > > "The indeterminate nature of classes of unconditioned consciousness is > effected without this condition. And the goodness and so on of > classes of conditioned consciousness is bound up with wise attention > and so on, not with the associated condition. And if the goodness and > so on were by nature in the associated conditions, it would be bound > up with the condition in the condition-associated states; (thus) > absence of greed would be either good or indeterminate, but because, > it being both good and indifferent, the goodness and so on would have > to be looked for among the conditions as among the associated states. > There is no contradiction if, instead of taking condition to mean > roots by virtue of their effecting goodness and so on, we take them to > mean roots by virtue of their effecting a fixed position. For those > states which are actually caused by conditions are firm and well- fixed > like firmly rooted trees; those which are not conditioned are not > well-fixed like watery plants and so on (which have roots) of the size > of a sesame seed. Thus the clause 'which renders service in the sense > of root' is to be understood as a state caused by the condition which > renders service by effecting a fixed condition." > THIS PARAGRAPH: > Scott: It would seem that 'rootedness' of patisandhi-citta would refer > to that particular moment of consciousness alone (and the bhavanga > cittas arising during that given existence). colette: that seems like lunacy! My understanding, IMO, of it is as clear as day: the root is part of consciousness, it's very deep, it's almost the essence of Svabhava. It is a form of Purity which feeds the 8 Consciousnesses. It is not something that can be seperated from the moment and the consciousness since it is part of the moment and the consciousness, as well as the cittas it causes to rise. It's very subtle and permeates everything. ---------------------- Perhaps no, two, or > three roots applies only to these sorts of consciousness. colette: all consciousnesses have many roots. It is the charlattan that attempts to pervert the consciousness through the focus of or on a singularity such as "creationist" theory. In the > above it is noted that '...the goodness and so on of classes of > conditioned consciousness is bound up with wise attention and so on, > not with the associated condition...'. Does this suggest that, while > there may be some sort of influence rendered by the presence, absence, > or relative strength of pa~n~naa as root for patisandhi citta, it is > mental factors like yoniso manasikara arising 'now' which serve as > condition for whatever level of pa~n~naa might arise? colette: no, I believe it's the FRUITION or Illumination which occur because of the intersection, tangent, the momentariness which I think you're suggesting is 'now' but by the time a person can speak the word 'now' whatever that person was speaking of is 'then'. Thanks for the go-around. I look forward to considering this discussion tomorrow at the library. toodles, colette #85167 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Apr 30, 2008 3:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] If patisandhi-citta ahetuka then impossible for nana-sampayuttum citta? sarahprocter... Dear Robert (& Scott). --- rjkjp1 wrote: > Ok, when you wrote, S: "As for no roots at rebirth, we know this is the > case in very weak > > kusala vipaka and there is definite handicap of some kind from that > > first moment. So, I wouldn't go so far as to say panna can still be > > developed. I haven't seen any indication about this. Let me know if > > you do, but I don't think you will:-)." ... S: It means I don't recall any textual references to suggest panna can be developed in the cases of no roots at rebirth, so would be surprised if you or Scott find any. A further interesting side-point (and rather different discussion)is that I've been referring to the development of panna (following Scott's original questions on this) and you've referring to a nana-sampayuttam citta. Would you consider the arising of a (single) citta with panna as being bhavana of any kind? For example, in the Atthasaalinii, Part V, Fourfold Jhaana, we read: "Again, bhaavanaa is used in the sense of producing and increasing, e.g.: 'Udaayi, I have preached to the disciples the practice according to which they develop the four applications in mindfulness. And such is its meaning here also. Hence it has been said that bhaaveti means to beget, produce, increase." So for clarification, this is what I've meant and understood Scott to mean by development of panna. Always good to hear your input, Robert. There are bound to be the odd mis-understandings too, no problem at all. Metta, Sarah ========= #85168 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Apr 30, 2008 4:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Direct knowledge and Inference are Mutually Supportive sarahprocter... Dear Scott, --- Scott Duncan wrote: > Scott: It would seem that 'rootedness' of patisandhi-citta would refer > to that particular moment of consciousness alone (and the bhavanga > cittas arising during that given existence). ... S: Yes. However as Ven Pesala puts it in an article 'A Precious Human Rebirth' which I just came across in searching for the Turtle Simile: "The difficulty for intelligent human beings to realise the Dhamma is nothing when compared to that of animals, fish, birds, and insects. Though they have been reborn during this very precious Buddha era, they lack the basis for realising or practising the Dhamma. That is why the lower realms are called “states of loss (apâya). "The Simile of the One-eyed Turtle In the Bâlapandita Sutta — the Discourse on the Foolish and the Wise — (Majjhimanikâya, Sutta 129) the Buddha describes the suffering of the animal kingdom, giving the Simile of the One-eyed Turtle to illustrate just how difficult it is to regain human rebirth, once one is reborn in the animal realm. <....> "Lower beings who find themselves lacking wholesome kamma are further hampered by the lack of opportunities to do good. Observe the daily behaviour of dogs, cats, sheep, birds, fish, and other animals. Their moral sense is very limited, so they have little chance to do good. They usually do only unwholesome deeds." **** S: I think there are lots of suttas to support this. ... Scott: > Perhaps no, two, or > three roots applies only to these sorts of consciousness. In the > above it is noted that '...the goodness and so on of classes of > conditioned consciousness is bound up with wise attention and so on, > not with the associated condition...'. Does this suggest that, while > there may be some sort of influence rendered by the presence, absence, > or relative strength of pa~n~naa as root for patisandhi citta, it is > mental factors like yoniso manasikara arising 'now' which serve as > condition for whatever level of pa~n~naa might arise? .... S: Yes, yoniso manasikara (wise attention) can be the condition for panna to arise and develop in the case of humans (here, I'm not talking about exceptions). It is the accumulated panna that counts. In the case of animals, there can be kusala (and thereby yoniso manasikara), but we have to question whether panna can develop or whether there just aren't the conditions in such a realm. The rebirth is indicative of the kinds of cittas likely to arise, I think, though of course not all cittas in a woeful realm are 'woeful', just as not all cittas in a jhana realm are 'jhana' cittas. Thanks for the discussion and your research. Metta, Sarah ========== #85169 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Apr 30, 2008 4:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhavanga chitta sarahprocter... Dear Bernard, --- lbarnolda wrote: > >Dear Saarah, > As you have mentioned the Bhavanga chitthas can appear as a mind > door object accompanied by panna - what is this stage or what is > the chittha that you can mention or at what stage of conciousness is > this .... S: I think it depends entirely on different accumulations as to what realities are known by panna and at what stage of understanding particular objects (such as this) appear (if at all). The cittas involved are the mind-door javana citta accompanied by panna. Even though (strictly speaking), the bhavanga cittas have fallen away, the characteristic can be known by such panna. If we try to be aware or know such cittas, or select any objects, it's not the way, of course. Did I answer the question? Metta, Sarah =========== #85170 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Apr 30, 2008 4:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the present moment ... ? .. Jhana requires panna! - II sarahprocter... Hi James, --- buddhatrue wrote: > James: We have discussed that issue many times already, and Bhikkhu > Bodhi wrote a detailed article about that issue which Sarah > specially posted for this group. There is not a clear-cut answer > but it appears that jhana is required for non-return or arahant, but > not stream entry or once-return. Read B. Bodhi's article again ... S: Yes, I posted it (with BB's permission) as it hadn't been published and wasn't available at the time otherwise. It didn't mean I agree with it entirely:-). With regard to the textual references that were used in the article to indicate jhana might be "required for non-return or arahant", I checked these carefully and wrote him a letter questioning this conclusion. His response was along the lines that it depended on whether one just looked at the suttas alone (as he was as I recall) or whether one also considered the commentary (and Abhidhamma texts) as I was. Metta, Sarah ========= #85171 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Apr 30, 2008 5:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] An introduction. sarahprocter... Hi William, After just discussing a B.Bodhi article with James, I was reminded of this comment you made: --- "William\\Alex" wrote: > I also don't like Bhikku Bodhi's traditionalist view, for a variety of > reasons. Instead, I prefer modern Theravada teachers who aren't too > concerned, for instance, about the "war on karma," and instead consider > vibhajjavada to be the essence of Theravada (also of Zen), not Bhikku > Bodhi's peculiar understanding of saddha as being faith which is only > partially blind rather than fully blind. ... S: What is this 'war on karma'? Also, this 'peculiar understanding' of 'saddha as being faith which is only partially blind....' which you attribute to BB? Can you give a reference? It sounds most unlike anything he says. .... > > I don't know Bhikku Nanamoli, but again, "The Path of Purification," is > another copyrighted text and I would prefer to avoid purchashing > copyrighted Buddhist texts. I am fairly cynical about the Buddhist > Publication Society and believe they could release a considerably > greater amount of texts into the public domain. ... S: I've discussed this area with B.Bodhi as it happens. It's not easy for charitable organisations to continue supporting translation works and publishing unless there is a steady income from sales. No easy answers. There is of course an argument for internet availability leading to greater sales of thick tomes. In any case, if it's not available at ATI now, I've been told the PofP will be available there very soon. There's also a group in Taiwan who distribute free copies of this text, I believe. Metta, Sarah ========= #85172 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Apr 30, 2008 1:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] report on Bangkok and Kaeng Krajan upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and Jon) - In a message dated 4/29/2008 7:13:17 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi Howard (and Jon), --------- Howard: > > > There is but one citta at a time - no doubt about that, > but Ken seems to want to freeze the world at a single citta and banish anicca from the tilkakkhana. > What is true, is that no series of paramattha dhammas is other than kind of collection of dhammas, and is not itself a paramattha dhamma. > Jon: > > I can see why you would question this, but I was taking KenH to be meaning something along the lines of your last paragraph, namely, that a series of paramattha dhammas is not itself a paramattha dhamma. Howard: > Ahh, okay. If that was the gist of Ken's statement, then I agree with it. -------------------------------------------------- The texts explain that the Ariyan Eightfold Path exists in a single moment. Right Understanding, Right Effort and all the other path factors arise and perform their functions *in a single moment of path consciousness.* Some of us agree on this vital point while others do not. Some are undecided. When we do agree with the single-moment explanation we must also agree that *all* reality - not just enlightenment - takes place in a single moment. -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: The question as to whether the Buddha's 8-fold path occurs in a single moment aside, I do not agree that all reality occurs in a single moment if by that you mean the *same* moment. ----------------------------------------------------- We can no longer be of the opinion that the effort to pick up a pencil, for example, is real. That sort of effort is just a concept. -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Your "real" and my "real" may well not have the same meaning, and in fact may have little coherent meaning at all. But the picking up of a pencil involves and spans a multitude of mind states, namas, and rupas, and a period of time traversing a multitude of "moments," each one of which, *when* it occurs, is "the present moment," a.k.a. "now." If, as you seem to be saying, there is but one moment and but one citta, then there is no change. BTW, if, when you speak of "just a concept," you mean literally "nothing at all," and yet you continue to type upon a keyboard and attempt to converse with people, you must be out of your mind. ------------------------------------------------------------ If this way of understanding means "wanting to freeze the world at a single citta" then I am guilty as charged. :-) -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Okay, I accept your guilty plea. It remains only to decide the penalty! ;-) ------------------------------------------------------ However, I doubt that the idea of freezing could be very helpful in understanding the single-moment theory. All conditioned dhammas are inherently impermanent (anicca) and so right understanding could never see them as being frozen. --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Your single-moment theory is incompatible with impermanence, and simply stating both doesn't erase the incompatibility. --------------------------------------------------------- It might be better just to say that the presently arisen dhammas were 'the all.' ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: The Buddha spoke of present, past, and future dhammas - of course, with only the present ones currently in existence. -------------------------------------------------------- Ken H =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream/ (From the Diamond Sutra) #85173 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Apr 30, 2008 5:22 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Direct knowledge and Inference are Mutually Supportive scottduncan2 Dear colette, Good morning (!), I hope you are well (Oxford comma), and thanks for the repy: Me: "It would seem that 'rootedness' of patisandhi-citta would refer to that particular moment of consciousness alone (and the bhavanga cittas arising during that given existence)." colette: "that seems like lunacy! My understanding, IMO, of it is as clear as day: the root is part of consciousness, it's very deep, it's almost the essence of Svabhava. It is a form of Purity which feeds the 8 Consciousnesses. It is not something that can be seperated from the moment and the consciousness since it is part of the moment and the consciousness, as well as the cittas it causes to rise. It's very subtle and permeates everything." Scott: I'd rather be a lunatic than, say, a piratic - all things considered. At any rate, I'm struggling with the roots and also with root condition, and trying to get the distinction. I think that the roots are, akusala: lobha, moha, and dosa; and, kusala: alobha, amoha, and adosa. They arise, as I understand it, not with all moments of consciousness, but with those moments which are kammically active. I'm trying to figure out this whole thing about pa~n~naa (amoha) as a root; and in particular, whether the absence of pa~n~naa as root at the moment of patisandhi-citta would then block the development of pa~n~naa during the existence following patisandhi-citta. Me: "Perhaps no, two, or three roots applies only to these sorts of consciousness." colette: "all consciousnesses have many roots. It is the charlattan that attempts to pervert the consciousness through the focus of or on a singularity such as 'creationist' theory." Scott: See above. I think only certain moments of consciousness 'have roots'. And yeah, the creationist theory isn't my bag. Me: "In the above it is noted that '...the goodness and so on of classes of conditioned consciousness is bound up with wise attention and so on, not with the associated condition...'. Does this suggest that, while there may be some sort of influence rendered by the presence, absence, or relative strength of pa~n~naa as root for patisandhi citta, it is mental factors like yoniso manasikara arising 'now' which serve as condition for whatever level of pa~n~naa might arise?" colette: "no, I believe it's the FRUITION or Illumination which occur because of the intersection, tangent, the momentariness which I think you're suggesting is 'now' but by the time a person can speak the word 'now' whatever that person was speaking of is 'then'." Scott: I think I'm seeing it as conditions other than hetu-paccaya which contribute to the development of pa~n~naa and, yeah, given enough development then there is the arising of Path and Fruit where I think pa~n~naa serves as root condition for that moment (I don't know for sure, I'm just trying to figure it out). Now is certainly ephemeral. It already over. I meant now its over. No, now. Ah, missed it again. Oh well... See you next time, colette. Stay cool. Sincerely, Scott. #85174 From: "connie" Date: Wed Apr 30, 2008 6:25 am Subject: Perfections Corner (138) nichiconn Dear Friends, ch.2 continues: We do not know our past lives but we can learn from the story of the Bodhisatta as Jotipaala: although he had accumulated the perfections to a high degree, he still associated with fools. We can learn that we should not be heedless and see the danger in association with fools. We read in the Commentary to the "Basket of Conduct", in the "Miscellaneous Sayings": "Now comes the method of practising the perfection of virtue (siila). Since the Great Man desires to adorn beings with the adornment of the virtue of the omniscient, at the beginning he must first purify his own virtue. Herein, virtue is purified in four modes: 1. by the purification of one's inclinations (ajjhaasayavisuddhi); 2. by the undertaking of precepts (samaadhaana); 3. by non-transgression (aviitikkamana); 4. by making amends for transgressions (patipaakatikara.na)." In this way we can check siila in our daily life. We should know whether our siila is pure. We read: "For someone who is dominated by personal ideals, is naturally disgusted with evil through the purity of his own inclinations and purifies his conduct by arousing his inward sense of shame (hiri). Someone else who is dominated by consideration for the world, afraid of evil, purifies his conduct by receiving precepts from another person and by arousing his sense of moral dread (ottappa) *2. Both establish themselves in virtue through non-transgression. But if, due to forgetfulness, they sometimes break a precept, through their sense of shame and moral dread, respectively, they quickly make amends for it through the proper means of rehabilitation." *2 The "Atthasaalinii" ( I, Part IV, Ch I, 125-127) explains that hiri, shame, has a subjective origin; its proximate cause is respect for oneself. Whereas ottappa, fear of blame or moral dread, has an external cause, it is influenced by the world; its proximate cause is respect for someone else. Hiri and ottappa always arise together, but they have different characteristics. In these ways siila is purified. We read further on about the virtue of the Bodhisatta: "When he speaks, his statements should be truthful, beneficial, and endearing, and his talk measured, timely, and concerned with the Dhamma. His mind should always be devoid of covetousness, ill-will, and perverted views. He should possess the knowledge of the ownership of kamma *1, and have settled faith and affection for recluses and brahmins who are faring and practising rightly... "By desisting from false speech his word comes to be authoritative for others. He is regarded as reliable and trustworthy, one whose statements are always accepted. He is dear and agreeable to deities. His mouth gives off a sweet fragrance and he guards his bodily and vocal conduct. He achieves distinguished characteristics, and eradicates the mental impressions of the defilements *2. "By desisting from slander he obtains a retinue and following that cannot be divided by the attacks of others. He possesses unbreakable faith in the true Dhamma. He is a firm friend, as exceedingly dear to beings as though they were acquainted with him in the last existence. And he is devoted to nondefilement. "By desisting from harsh speech he becomes dear and agreeable to beings, pleasant in character, sweet in speech, held in esteem. And he develops a voice endowed with eight factors *3. "By desisting from idle chatter he becomes dear and agreeable to beings, revered, held in esteem. His statements are accepted and his talk measured. He acquires great influence and power, and becomes skilful in answering the questions of others with the ingenuity that creates opportunities (to benefit others). And when he reaches the plane of Buddhahood, he becomes capable of answering the numerous questions of beings, speaking numerous languages all with a single reply. "Through his freedom from covetousness he gains what he wishes and obtains whatever excellent possessions he needs. He is honoured by powerful khattiyas *4. He can never be vanquished by his adversaries, is never defective in his faculties, and becomes the peerless individual." *1 Kammassakataa ~naa.na, understanding that kamma is the cause of vipaaka, result. Beings will receive the appropriate results of their deeds. *2 The Paali has: vaasanaa. Even arahats who have eradicated all defilements may still have a way of speech or action that is not agreeable to others. This is not motivated by akusala, but it is due to their habits in the past which have been accumulated. Only a Buddha can eradicate vaasanaa. *3 The eight qualities of the Buddha's voice: it is frank, clear, melodious, pleasant, full, carrying, deep and resonant, and does not travel beyond his audience. *4 The khattiyas where those of the highest social rank. All kings and chieftains were katthiyas. .. to be continued, connie #85175 From: "Walter Horn" Date: Wed Apr 30, 2008 6:40 am Subject: Re: Metta, Ch 3, no 2. walterhorn Dear Nina, > These men did not have to recite first so that mettå could arise, > mettå arose > because of its own conditions. What are metta's "own conditions"? Why should some methods for producing metta be thought intrinsically superior to others? If one can condition the arousal (if that's the right word) of metta by always remembering to smile at strangers, by alms-giving, tending the sick, reciting, meditating on the thousand-petalled lotus, etc., why should such methods be considered inferior to any other? > Thinking of the > words which are recited arises because of conditions. Yes, all of our thoughts, behaviors, emotions arise because of conditions. > People believe > that they > should recite because they are used to reciting all the time. But we may be conditioned to any behavior, not just recitation. That can't be considered a fault of this particular one, can it? Perhaps people believe they should recite because they notice that it produces in them the arising of metta. > Mettå can become > stronger and it > can arise more often if we understand the benefit of mettå. Its > arising is not > conditioned by the reciting of texts for a long time. Well, of course, that's the nub right there. If that's true, it's and to my questions and an end of the matter entirely. My supposition that other methods may be helpful is just wrong. However, as it's put here ('for a long time'), the claim is simply an empirical one, is it not? If I read elsewhere or am told by others that metta's arising is often (or may be) conditioned by reciting of texts or by meditating, I am given a contrary empirical claim. And so much advice of this kind may be seen in books or on TV. "Practice this or that charitable behavior, perhaps first without understanding why, and eventually, you will do it intentionally, with loving kindness." Where there are empirical disputes of that kind, I suppose one must look for studies, or perhaps just see what works for oneself. I grant, however, that above there seems to be something like an additional, non-empirical suggestion, according to which metta SHOULD arise (or perhaps a better sort arises?) if it does so "according to its own conditions." That's why I have asked about that proposition. Again, many thanks for taking the time to respond to my past questions. Best, Walto #85176 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Apr 30, 2008 3:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Metta, Ch 3, no 2. upasaka_howard Hi, Walto (and Nina) - In a message dated 4/30/2008 9:40:41 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, calhorn@... writes: Dear Nina, > These men did not have to recite first so that mettå could arise, > mettå arose > because of its own conditions. What are metta's "own conditions"? Why should some methods for producing metta be thought intrinsically superior to others? If one can condition the arousal (if that's the right word) of metta by always remembering to smile at strangers, by alms-giving, tending the sick, reciting, meditating on the thousand-petalled lotus, etc., why should such methods be considered inferior to any other? > Thinking of the > words which are recited arises because of conditions. Yes, all of our thoughts, behaviors, emotions arise because of conditions. > People believe > that they > should recite because they are used to reciting all the time. But we may be conditioned to any behavior, not just recitation. That can't be considered a fault of this particular one, can it? Perhaps people believe they should recite because they notice that it produces in them the arising of metta. > Mettå can become > stronger and it > can arise more often if we understand the benefit of mettå. Its > arising is not > conditioned by the reciting of texts for a long time. Well, of course, that's the nub right there. If that's true, it's and to my questions and an end of the matter entirely. My supposition that other methods may be helpful is just wrong. However, as it's put here ('for a long time'), the claim is simply an empirical one, is it not? If I read elsewhere or am told by others that metta's arising is often (or may be) conditioned by reciting of texts or by meditating, I am given a contrary empirical claim. And so much advice of this kind may be seen in books or on TV. "Practice this or that charitable behavior, perhaps first without understanding why, and eventually, you will do it intentionally, with loving kindness." Where there are empirical disputes of that kind, I suppose one must look for studies, or perhaps just see what works for oneself. I grant, however, that above there seems to be something like an additional, non-empirical suggestion, according to which metta SHOULD arise (or perhaps a better sort arises?) if it does so "according to its own conditions." That's why I have asked about that proposition. Again, many thanks for taking the time to respond to my past questions. Best, Walto ================================= It seems to me that becoming aware of suffering in ourselves when suffering is present and also aware of times relatively free of suffering, and additionally allowing ourselves to observe the obvious similarities between ourselves and other sentient beings serves to lay a foundation for metta, and karuna, and mudita oriented towards others. And building on that foundation, that prepared, fertile, mental field, by then turning one's attention to the well being of others, and supported by appropriate thinking, possibly expressed in speech, one can prompt the arising of metta, karuna, and mudita in the moment, and thereby further cultivate the mental field. We should recall the song lyrics "Nothing comes from nothing - nothing ever will." And we should remember the teaching of the Buddha that I copy below. With metta, Howard _________________________________________________________________ Khp 9 Karaniya Metta Sutta Loving-Kindness Translated from the Pali by Ñanamoli Thera Alternate translation: _Amaravati_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/khp/khp.9.amar.html) _Buddharakkhita_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/khp/khp.9.budd.html) _Ñanamoli_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/khp/khp.9.nyam.html) _Piyadassi_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/khp/khp.1-9x.piya.html) _Thanissaro_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/khp/khp.1-9.than.html) PTS: Khp 9 This sutta also appears at _Sn 1.8_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/snp/snp.1.08.nymo.html) ____________________________________ Source: From _The Practice of Loving-Kindness (Metta) (WH 7)_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nanamoli/wheel007.html) , by Ñanamoli Thera (Kandy: Buddhist Publication Society, 1987). Copyright © 1987 Buddhist Publication Society. Used with permission. ____________________________________ Copyright © 1987 Buddhist Publication Society. Access to Insight edition © 1994 For free distribution. This work may be republished, reformatted, reprinted, and redistributed in any medium. It is the author's wish, however, that any such republication and redistribution be made available to the public on a free and unrestricted basis and that translations and other derivative works be clearly marked as such. Other formats: (http://www.suttareadings.net/audio/index.html#khp.9) ____________________________________ What should be done by one skillful in good So as to gain the State of Peace is this: Let him be able, and upright and straight, Easy to speak to, gentle, and not proud, Contented too, supported easily, With few tasks, and living very lightly; His faculties serene, prudent, and modest, Unswayed by the emotions of the clans; And let him never do the slightest thing That other wise men might hold blamable. (And let him think:) "In safety and in bliss May creatures all be of a blissful heart. Whatever breathing beings there may be. No matter whether they are frail or firm, With none excepted, be they long or big Or middle-sized, or be they short or small Or thick, as well as those seen or unseen, Or whether they are dwelling far or near, Existing or yet seeking to exist. May creatures all be of a blissful heart. Let no one work another one's undoing Or even slight him at all anywhere: And never let them wish each other ill Through provocation or resentful thought." And just as might a mother with her life Protect the son that was her only child, So let him then for every living thing Maintain unbounded consciousness in being; And let him too with love for all the world Maintain unbounded consciousness in being Above, below, and all round in between, Untroubled, with no enemy or foe. And while he stands or walks or while he sits Or while he lies down, free from drowsiness, Let him resolve upon this mindfulness: This is Divine Abiding here, they say. But when he has no trafficking with views, Is virtuous, and has perfected seeing, And purges greed for sensual desires, #85177 From: "Walter Horn" Date: Wed Apr 30, 2008 7:46 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Metta, Ch 3, no 2. walterhorn Dear Howard (and Nina), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > ================================= > It seems to me that becoming aware of suffering in ourselves when > suffering is present and also aware of times relatively free of suffering, and > additionally allowing ourselves to observe the obvious similarities between > ourselves and other sentient beings serves to lay a foundation for metta, and > karuna, and mudita oriented towards others. And building on that foundation, that > prepared, fertile, mental field, by then turning one's attention to the well > being of others, and supported by appropriate thinking, possibly expressed > in speech, one can prompt the arising of metta, karuna, and mudita in the > moment, and thereby further cultivate the mental field. > We should recall the song lyrics "Nothing comes from nothing - nothing > ever will." Thanks for your comments. I agree that one can cultivate metta by understanding of the type you mention. I think my only misgiving involves apparent claims that it cannot be cultivated (or, at least, cultivated as well) in any other way. Think of Pavlov's experiments. What, intrinsically, has a bell got to do with drooling? Nothing, of course. But it has been conclusively demonstrated that the bell can serve as a very effective conditioning agent for drooling nonetheless. Similarly, if people are helped in the cultivation of some attitude by recitation or meditation (as I believe for many centuries they actually have been)-- even if one believes there's no intrinsic connection (and I think that claim is controversial myself, certainly not obvious), what's the harm? Best, Walto #85178 From: "connie" Date: Wed Apr 30, 2008 8:07 am Subject: Re: An introduction. nichiconn Hi William, S: There is of course an argument for internet availability leading to greater sales of thick tomes. In any case, if it's not available at ATI now, I've been told the PofP will be available there very soon. There's also a group in Taiwan who distribute free copies of this text, I believe. c: I looked forward to that once upon a time, but The Path of Purification disappeared from ATI's projects page (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tech/scribe.html) quite awhile ago, so ???- maybe not. The Corporate Body of the Buddha Educational Foundation's (http://www.budaedu.org) list of available texts doesn't include the PPn right now, either, but anyone interested might want to check back (and maybe donate) once in awhile. peace, connie #85179 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Apr 30, 2008 4:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Metta, Ch 3, no 2. upasaka_howard Hi, Walto - In a message dated 4/30/2008 10:46:43 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, calhorn@... writes: Similarly, if people are helped in the cultivation of some attitude by recitation or meditation (as I believe for many centuries they actually have been)-- even if one believes there's no intrinsic connection (and I think that claim is controversial myself, certainly not obvious), what's the harm? ============================== If the "attitude" cultivated is the real thing, then I see no harm, but I also strongly believe, as I understand you to also believe, that there *is* a connection between the conditions and the effect, the very fact that the conditions *are* conditions for the effect indicating a "connection." With metta, Howard #85180 From: "Walter Horn" Date: Wed Apr 30, 2008 8:44 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Metta, Ch 3, no 2. walterhorn Hi, Howard. Thanks for your reply. > ============================== > If the "attitude" cultivated is the real thing, then I see no harm, but > I also strongly believe, as I understand you to also believe, that there *is* > a connection between the conditions and the effect, the very fact that the > conditions *are* conditions for the effect indicating a "connection." I'm a little unclear about this. I had mentioned the case of Pavlov's bell and his dog's subsequent salivating as an example of where there is a condition, but no intrinsic connection. As you say, though, the extrinsic connection must there or it wouldn't be a condition. I'm uncertain about intrinsic connections as between meditating and/or reciting and metta. I think that issue is difficult and controversial. Anyhow, I'm afraid I didn't understand what you meant here. Would you mind elaborating? Thanks. Walto #85181 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Apr 30, 2008 5:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Metta, Ch 3, no 2. upasaka_howard Hi, Walto - In a message dated 4/30/2008 11:45:10 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, calhorn@... writes: Hi, Howard. Thanks for your reply. > ============================== > If the "attitude" cultivated is the real thing, then I see no harm, but > I also strongly believe, as I understand you to also believe, that there *is* > a connection between the conditions and the effect, the very fact that the > conditions *are* conditions for the effect indicating a "connection." I'm a little unclear about this. I had mentioned the case of Pavlov's bell and his dog's subsequent salivating as an example of where there is a condition, but no intrinsic connection. As you say, though, the extrinsic connection must there or it wouldn't be a condition. I'm uncertain about intrinsic connections as between meditating and/or reciting and metta. I think that issue is difficult and controversial. Anyhow, I'm afraid I didn't understand what you meant here. Would you mind elaborating? Thanks. Walto ============================== Generally, A being a condition for B is itself a connection (or relation) between A & B. In the case that A is a compound/aggregation, more understanding of the "connection" can be gained by looking at the paramatthic phenomena that are the underlying components of A and their interactions. In particular, as regards recitation and the arising of metta, what we call "the recitation" is an aggregation involving many mind states, at least two sense doors, and many varieties of cetasikas including all sorts of mental associations and memories which, in concert, condition the arising of metta. With metta, Howard #85182 From: "Walter Horn" Date: Wed Apr 30, 2008 9:24 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Metta, Ch 3, no 2. walterhorn Dear Howard, Yes, I agree with that completely. Thanks for clarifying for me! W #85183 From: "connie" Date: Wed Apr 30, 2008 9:36 am Subject: Re: Metta, Ch 2, no 2. nichiconn Dear Sarah & Walto, > "Brahman, I do not call a man a monk merely because he receives alms. > For a man who adopts and practices all the forms is not therefore a > monk. But he that weighs well all the Aggregates of Being and acts > accordingly, he is a monk indeed." > Buddhist Legends - vol. 3, p.145 ... S: I checked the Pali for the last sentence and it seems to be this: "Yo pana sabbasa"nkhaaresu sa"nkhaaya carati, so bhikkhu naamaa''ti" Connie, how would you translate it? Something along the lines of: "having considered all conditioned dhammas, he practises accordingly and can be called a bhikkhu."?? .. c: Yes, my persistent friend, but maybe more emphatic - indeed, furthermore / pana - and sankhaa's 'consideration' being something more certain. I mean, the person in the previous verse would've 'considered' that acting certain ways (rite & ritual?) was the way to go, too, but the end results wouldn't be the same... like 'leading to good ends' is one thing and 'leading to the ultimate end' are both in accordance with 'truth', but not at all the same. S: I also liked the following which Han wrote: "Here, Sayadaw said bhikkhu means not only the monks but it includes everybody who is afraid of samsara and who wants to escape from it. To support the Sayadaw's point of view, please refer to Vism. I.7: "He sees fear (bhayamnikkhati) in the round of rebirths, thus he is a bhikkhu." The Pali for this is: "Sa.msaare bhaya.m ikkhatii ti bhikkhu." c: I like that, too, but 'fear' is another of those cold shower words. peace, connie #85184 From: Sukinder Date: Wed Apr 30, 2008 9:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Metta, Ch 2, no 2. sukinderpal Dear Walto, Sorry for the delay in responding, I‘ve been occupied with other matters mostly. I wasn’t sure about your overall knowledge of the Dhamma, later I came to realize that you have yet to familiarize with the Abhidhamma perspective. I was having difficulty deciding how to respond and where to start. In fact this is my sixth attempt, having each time gotten myself caught in knots created by my own proliferated thoughts! But I like your attitude as expressed in the many responses to others…..:-) ================= > If studying texts is approached with the same attitude as one > does with meditation, namely with an intention to make arise desired > states, then it is wrong. However, because we must have heard the > Buddha's teachings before any understanding of the kind can arise, and > because there is so much ignorance and wrong view accumulated, > continuing to develop the understanding at this level must necessarily > go on for a long, long time. Walto: Isn't this suggestion that we must engage in study "for a long, long time" sort of contrary to the point of the story we've been talking about (that Ganesh recently posted)? Surely the main point of that tale was that one can be derailed by study. Sukin: :-) My long, long time is probably much, much longer than what you have in mind. But I wouldn’t want to use the word ‘engage’ since this sounds like something someone decides to do. When talking about ‘study’ or ‘intellectual understanding’ and ‘practice’, even when this can be referred to as being a ‘stage in the development of understanding’, in reality they refer to the momentary arising of ‘wisdom’ of different degrees. Hence in pointing to ‘pariyatti’ or intellectual understanding this is not to be confused with the conventional activity of reading, listening, discussing etc. One may for example, hear very little occasionally, but this may condition much reflection on one’s own. Whether getting to hear much or little depends on many conditions, but wise reflection can arise little or much, this depends mostly on the accumulated wisdom. Besides, depending on accumulated wisdom, there can also be conditions for the direct understanding of a reality or practice to arise at any time. No one can decide to have arise any reality. This applies to intellectual as well as direct understanding. But yes, hearing the Dhamma and correctly understanding it must precede any direct understanding. When it is stated in the Teachings, the four factors to Stream Entry, namely; association with the wise; hearing the Teachings; wise reflection; and practice in accordance with the Dhamma, this clearly shows not only that getting to hear the Dhamma is essential, but also that before there can be any substantial direct understanding as in “practice in accordance with the Dhamma”, development at the intellectual level must grow gradually and become firm. If there is any being “derailed”, I think this is more likely to happen to those who fail to give due consideration to the value of developing Right View intellectually. When one becomes eager to get on with the practice, this is being derailed, if not loosing the chance to get on the track to start with. When right understanding arises for the first time upon hearing the Dhamma, this is when pariyatti has arisen. If by conditions one continues to hear the Teachings explained in a way that ‘clicks’, this places one on the right track. With this happening over and again the chances of being derailed becomes less if one does not overreach and is accepting of whatever the level of understanding or no understanding arises. Moreover, given that pariyatti from the very outset is aimed at the present moment, the ground so to speak, becomes firmer as one moves along. Don’t we after all need to develop greater understanding of the fact that the ‘world’ is just this one fleeting moment? Does not the realization, the practice leading to this and the understanding at the level of hearing ‘about’ have to agree in principle? One does not create unnecessary dualities concerning better time, place, posture, object etc. and this is what must be in order that the understanding grows to insight any nama or rupa regardless of situation. It is rather wrong understanding driven by desire, which creates ideas about “doings” and more conducive time and place for this. And this is exactly the obstacle to understanding to arise at anytime, especially given that any directed efforts to ‘practice’, comes with it some kind of “illusion of result” or the other. ======================= Walto: You suggest below that as a result of study the correct understandings are more likely to arise. Sukin: Let’s use ‘pariyatti’ instead of ‘study’. The latter can refer to any number of conventional activities, whereas the former must refer necessarily only to moment of Right understanding. The conventional activity of reading or listening to Dhamma is conditioned by seeing the value of continued development of understanding at the level of hearing but does *not* insist that the activity must bring result. Rather with some level of right understanding about conditionality and non-self, this itself helps steer one away from developing the wrong attitude towards the activity and increases the chance in fact, of any understanding to arise at any time. =================== Walto: I have also suggested that the correct attitudes are more likely to arise as a result of meditative practices. These are empirical questions, of course, but I will say (based on what limited experience I have), that I think both of those propositions are true. Sukin: Walto, the Teachings are exactly about the moment to moment experiences of our life of which we are totally ignorant, in fact have wrong understanding of. One is in effect developing Right View to counter any accumulated Wrong View that now and then, arises. Right attitude with regard to the Dhamma would imo, be Right View, anything else is Wrong View, hence wrong attitude. It follows that if what one considers ‘right attitude’ does not in fact agree with what is taught in the Dhamma, then it must be wrong indeed. The chance of being right at the intellectual level is already so hard. How much more so when it comes to the deeper understanding required of ‘practice’? A glimpse into the truth and value of the Dhamma will condition at the same time a glimpse correspondingly, of our own ignorance and tendency to misinterpret experiences. We begin to see how unreliable our experiences are in terms of determining the truth of things. This is why a beginning level of wisdom will condition a lending an ear to more wisdom, namely the Dhamma and not rushing to “just do it”. After all we are worldings, and worldlings are said to basically be “mad”! If you have time I would like you to read more in the U.Ps. of DSG, about Pariyatti (intellectual understanding)=> Patipatti (direct understanding or practice)=> Pativedha (realization) and about Suttamaya panna=> Cintamaya panna=> Bhavanamaya panna which Mike also referred to. Also you may want to look into the topic of the Three rounds of knowledge regarding the Four Noble Truths, Sacca-nana=> Kicca-nana=> Kata-nana. This is from the very first sermon that the Buddha gave. In all this you will see that the development of understanding starts with the intellectual level. Especially in the last teaching above, appreciating the profoundness of the 4NTs, you will see how long the journey at the intellectual level of understanding is alone. ========================= Walto: As to issues involving motives, ends, etc., I confess that I find them very difficult. Both your post and Mike's make interesting remarks on that subject, but the issue is so complicated. I suppose that it's hard (except maybe for those gifted in psychoanalysis?) to know very many of the causes of our any of our actions. We can, however, hope to come to learn which sorts of activites we undertake to our profit and which to our detriment, adjust ourselves in some Pavlovian way, so that we may start to act more in accordance with what we have learned. But the goal of 'improvement' is in there, of course, as are countless philosophical conundrums. Anyhow, when confronted with such issues, I have to admit that I sometimes prefer to take Joni Mitchell's advice and "Never mind the questions there's no answers to." Sukin: The Dhamma is as simple as it is profound. It is we who have developed the habit to complications and become so attached to those complicated and deep sounding explanations. These however keep us ever more away from the prospect of any real understanding, which is got by virtue simply, of understanding the nature of the present moment in which there is absolutely no requirement for any commentary. In the end only the Dhamma has the answers and there must come a time when Pavlov and everyone else gets flung out the window. I remember liking Joni Mitchell’s voice and the melodic and tonal progressions of the songs, but I never paid attention to the words, though for a different reason then than I would now, not that the above is necessarily wrong though. ;-) This has been long, sorry… Metta, Sukin Ps: Please don’t expect a quick response; I am quite behind in my reading here. #85185 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Apr 30, 2008 11:37 am Subject: What I heard, transcription of tape, to Han. nilovg Dear Han, I transcribed part of your session with Kh Sujin. Do not hesitate to fire back. You said that the question of non-self causes so much confusion that you rather leave it. But see here in my transcription: < This is not easy to understand. If one has not heard the truth, one cannot imagine how it is possible that there is no “I”, no world.> Nobody says that anatta is easy to understand, we all have confusion and ignorance. Here is the transcription: Khun Sujin: < (end quote). N: When I was reading this transcription to Lodewijk he said that there cannot be any other way to understand anatta but to understand the reality of the present moment. Nina. #85186 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Apr 30, 2008 12:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Metta, Ch 3, no 2. nilovg Dear Walto, Op 30-apr-2008, om 15:40 heeft Walter Horn het volgende geschreven: > What are metta's "own conditions"? Why should some methods for > producing metta be thought intrinsically superior to others? If one > can condition the arousal (if that's the right word) of metta by > always remembering to smile at strangers, by alms-giving, tending the > sick, reciting, meditating on the thousand-petalled lotus, etc., why > should such methods be considered inferior to any other? ------- N: Kh Sujin explains the Dhamma in a very direct way, always pointing to understanding this moment now, as you may read in my post to Han. She does not teach in a conventional, academic way and for some people this is hard to get. Once you understand you may see that it is a most effective way. I am thinking of Kh Sujin's words: People will object: but reciting is not wrong. No, she does not say that it is wrong. But what is most effective: understand citta now so that metta can be developed. Look at Howard's quote: Karaniya Metta sutta, and look specifically at the ending, here is the clue: ------- N: See, this is loving kindness jhaana made as basis for insight, according to the Co. No wrong view, perfect seeing, that is seeing realities as they are, especially the reality that appears now. The Co. states: < A heap of mere sankharas; no creature can be found herein, till he eventually becomes virtuous (siilavaa) with the kind of virtue that is supermundane since he is now perfected (sampanno) in the right view belonging to the Path of Stream entry, which is called seeing (dassana), and which is associated with that supramundane virue.>... He then can attain higher Paths and will eventually become an arahat. > > > Mettå can become > > stronger and it > > can arise more often if we understand the benefit of mettå. Its > > arising is not > > conditioned by the reciting of texts for a long time. > > W: Well, of course, that's the nub right there. If that's true, it's > and to my questions and an end of the matter entirely. My > supposition that other methods may be helpful is just wrong. > However, as it's put here ('for a long time'), the claim is simply an > empirical one, is it not? If I read elsewhere or am told by others > that metta's arising is often (or may be) conditioned by reciting of > texts or by meditating, I am given a contrary empirical claim. And so > much advice of this kind may be seen in books or on TV. "Practice > this or that charitable behavior, perhaps first without understanding > why, and eventually, you will do it intentionally, with loving > kindness." > > Where there are empirical disputes of that kind, I suppose one must > look for studies, or perhaps just see what works for oneself. ------ N: Again, let people do what they want to do, no objection :-) If they are ready for deeper understanding it is beneficial to know that when thinking: , etc. then self is at work. Anatta will not be understood. ------ Nina. > #85188 From: "Walter Horn" Date: Wed Apr 30, 2008 12:24 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Metta, Ch 3, no 2. walterhorn Dear Nina and Sukin, Many thanks for your detailed responses. There is a lot to think about there. Best, Walto "It's the half-forgotten question: What is it that we are part of, and what is it that we are?" #85189 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Apr 30, 2008 12:24 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Metta, Ch 2, no 2. nilovg Dear Sarah, I remember Bron vividly. Thank you for letting me know about her husband's dying and her responding calmly. Nina. Op 30-apr-2008, om 9:23 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > Nina, you'll remember Bron from Australia who came with me to visit > you in > Holland in the late 70's. You didn't know her husband (of the last 25+ > years), but he also had a keen interest in Buddhism and we were > very fond > of him. We just heard that he just stopped breathing in his sleep a > few > days ago and peacefully died in her arms as she waited for the > ambulance. > He was 83 years old. I don't think there was any inkling of any > problem, > but apparently she's responded very calmly. We never know, however, > from > moment to moment what the response will be. As Mike says, only right > understanding can eradicated the unwholesome tendencies. > ... #85190 From: "Ramesh Patil" Date: Wed Apr 30, 2008 7:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Download the Whole......Accesstoinsight.org......website rameshat27 Dear Dhammamaster, Thanks for such a valuable dhamma gift... yours in dhamma ============= ramesh ====== On 4/27/08, sÄ«lÄ?nanda wrote: > > Dear Dhammafarers, > > Republish online, Distribute on CD, Store in Library or Read Offline > the whole Accesstoinsight.org website... > > *accesstoinsight.org >* > The current Offline Edition is 2008-04-23-20 (Wednesday 23 Apr 2008) > > "Know the Dhamma, Make the Dhamma Known." > - this is the highest blessing. > > mahakaruna, > ~upâsaka sîlânanda #85191 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Apr 30, 2008 5:16 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: the present moment ... ? .. Jhana requires panna! - II buddhatrue Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi James, > > --- buddhatrue wrote: > > > James: We have discussed that issue many times already, and Bhikkhu > > Bodhi wrote a detailed article about that issue which Sarah > > specially posted for this group. There is not a clear-cut answer > > but it appears that jhana is required for non-return or arahant, but > > not stream entry or once-return. Read B. Bodhi's article again > ... > S: Yes, I posted it (with BB's permission) as it hadn't been published and > wasn't available at the time otherwise. It didn't mean I agree with it > entirely:-). James: I didn't state anything about you agreeing with it. I know that you don't agree with it. > > With regard to the textual references that were used in the article to > indicate jhana might be "required for non-return or arahant", I checked > these carefully and wrote him a letter questioning this conclusion. His > response was along the lines that it depended on whether one just looked > at the suttas alone (as he was as I recall) or whether one also considered > the commentary (and Abhidhamma texts) as I was. James: Should someone first consider the suttas (the Buddha's word) or the commentary/Abhidhamma (someone else's word)? When there is a conflict, I believe the suttas should come first. > > Metta, > > Sarah Metta, James #85192 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Apr 30, 2008 5:54 pm Subject: Vism.XVII,253 - 255 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga", Ch. XVII 253. Rebirth-process becoming briefly is aggregates generated by kamma. It is of nine kinds, according as it is said: 'Herein, what is rebirth-process becoming? Sense-desire becoming, fine-material becoming, immaterial becoming, percipient becoming, non-percipient becoming, neither-percipient-nor-non-percipient becoming, one-constituent becoming, four constituent becoming, five-constituent becoming: this is called rebirth-process becoming' (Vbh. 17). 254. Herein, the kind of becoming called 'having sense desires' is 'sense-desire becoming'. Similarly with the 'fine-material' and 'immaterial' kinds of becoming. It is the becoming of those possessed of perception, or there is perception here in becoming, thus it is 'percipient becoming'. The opposite kind is 'non-percipient becoming'. Owing to the absence of gross perception and the presence of subtle perception there is neither perception nor non-perception in that kind of becoming, thus it is 'neither-percipient-nor-non-percipient becoming'. It is becoming constituted out of the materiality aggregate only, thus it is 'one-constituent becoming', or that kind of becoming has only one constituent, [the material aggregate, or dimension,] thus it is one-constituent becoming. And similarly the 'four-constituent' [has the four mental aggregates, or dimensions,] and the 'five-constituent' [has the material and the four mental aggregates, or dimensions]. 255. Herein, sense-desire becoming is five aggregates acquired through kamma (clung to). Likewise the fine-material becoming. Immaterial becoming is four. Percipient becoming is four and five. Non-percipient becoming is one aggregate that is acquired through kamma (clung to). This is how the exposition should be known here 'as to state'. ******************** 253. upapattibhavo pana sa"nkhepato kammaabhinibbattaa khandhaa, pabhedato navavidho hoti. yathaaha ``tattha katamo upapattibhavo? kaamabhavo ruupabhavo aruupabhavo sa~n~naabhavo asa~n~naabhavo nevasa~n~naanaasa~n~naabhavo, ekavokaarabhavo catuvokaarabhavo pa~ncavokaarabhavo, aya.m vuccati upapattibhavo''ti (vibha0 234). 254. tattha kaamasa"nkhaato bhavo kaamabhavo. esa nayo ruupaaruupabhavesu. sa~n~naavata.m bhavo, sa~n~naa vaa ettha bhave atthiiti sa~n~naabhavo. vipariyaayena asa~n~naabhavo. o.laarikaaya sa~n~naaya abhaavaa sukhumaaya ca bhaavaa neva sa~n~naa, naasa~n~naa asmi.m bhaveti nevasa~n~naanaasa~n~naabhavo. ekena ruupakkhandhena voki.n.no bhavo ekavokaarabhavo. eko vaa vokaaro assa bhavassaati ekavokaarabhavo. esa nayo catuvokaarapa~ncavokaarabhavesu. 255. tattha kaamabhavo pa~nca upaadi.n.nakkhandhaa. tathaa ruupabhavo. aruupabhavo cattaaro , sa~n~naabhavo pa~nca. asa~n~naabhavo eko upaadi.n.nakkhandho. nevasa~n~naanaasa~n~naabhavo cattaaro. ekavokaarabhavaadayo ekacatupa~ncakkhandhaa upaadi.n.nakkhandhehiiti evamettha dhammatopi vi~n~naatabbo vinicchayo. #85193 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Apr 30, 2008 7:07 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] doubts lbidd2 Hi Lukas, Lukas: "Please tell my something about dvaras." Larry: The 5 sense doors (eye, ear, nose, tongue, and body) are all rupa. They are called "sensitive matter" and they act as media between an external object and consciousness. They are only known through the mind door. That is to say, they can't be seen or felt. The mind door is not rupa. It is the stream of the life-continuum consciousness (bhavanga citta). In this stream of consciousness all the various kinds of consciousness arise with cetasikas, which are mental factors such as feeling, perception and formations (sankhara) such as desire, ignorance, wisdom, etc. Consciousness and mental factors together experience the object of consciousness which, in the case of visible data, for example, is transmitted from the external object to the mind door by eye sensitivity, the eye door. Lukas: "If we consider the self just only as coarising of nama and rupa takes place in six senses is it the way to Nibbana?" Larry: It isn't quite correct to say the self is the co-arising of nama and rupa. It would be better to say all there is is nama and rupa and none of that is self. Visible object is not self, eye door is not self, and eye consciousness is not self. Understanding in that way is the way to Nibbana. I think Nina or Sarah might be able to give you a better answer. How is the meditation going? Larry #85194 From: "connie" Date: Wed Apr 30, 2008 7:34 pm Subject: Vism.XVII,253 - 255 nichiconn Upapattibhavo pana sa"nkhepato kammaabhinibbattaa khandhaa, pabhedato navavidho hoti. Yathaaha- "tattha katamo upapattibhavo? Kaamabhavo ruupabhavo aruupabhavo sa~n~naabhavo asa~n~naabhavo nevasa~n~naanaasa~n~naabhavo, ekavokaarabhavo catuvokaarabhavo pa~ncavokaarabhavo, aya.m vuccati upapattibhavo"ti (vibha. 234). 253. Rebirth-process becoming briefly is aggregages generated by kamma. It is of nine kinds, according as it is said 'Herein, what is rebirth-process becoming? Sense-desire becoming, fine-material becoming, immaterial becoming, percipient becoming, non-percipient becoming, neither-percipient-nor-non-percipient becoming, one-constituent becoming, [572] four-constituent becoming, five-constituent becoming: This is called rebirth process becoming' (Vbh.17). {PoP p.687} Rebirth-becoming is briefly the aggregates produced by karma and is ninefold in kind. As it is said: "What therein is rebirth-becoming? The becoming of the sense-desires, of matter, of non-matter, of perception, of non-perception, of neither perception nor non-perception, of one constituent, [572] of four constituents, of five constituents - this is called rebirth-becoming." {Ibid.} Tattha kaamasa"nkhaato bhavo kaamabhavo. Esa nayo ruupaaruupabhavesu. Sa~n~naavata.m bhavo, sa~n~naa vaa ettha bhave atthiiti sa~n~naabhavo. Vipariyaayena asa~n~naabhavo. O.laarikaaya sa~n~naaya abhaavaa sukhumaaya ca bhaavaa nevasa~n~naa, naasa~n~naa asmi.m bhaveti nevasa~n~naanaasa~n~naabhavo. Ekena ruupakkhandhena voki.n.no bhavo ekavokaarabhavo. Eko vaa vokaaro assa bhavassaati ekavokaarabhavo. Esa nayo catuvokaarapa~ncavokaarabhavesu. 254. Herein, the kind of becoming called 'having sense desire' is sense-desire becoming. Similarly with the fine-material and immaterial kinds of becoming. It is the becoming of those possessed of perception, or, there is perception here in becoming, thus it is percipient becoming. The opposite kind is non-percipient becoming. Owing to the absence of gross perception and to the presence of subtle perception there is neither perception nor non-perception in that kind of becoming thus it is neither-percipient-nor-non-percipient becoming. It is becoming constituted out of the materiality aggregate only, thus it is one-constituent becoming, or, that kind of becoming has only one constituent, [the materiality aggregate, or dimension,] thus it is one-constituent becoming. And similarly the four-constituent [has the four mental aggregates, or dimensions,] and the five-constituent [has the material and the four mental aggregates, or dimensions]. {PoP p.687} Of these, becoming which is termed sense-desires is becoming of sense-desires. And the same with becoming of matter and of non-matter. Becoming of those possessed with perception {Read sa~n~naavata.m, explained by the .Tiikaa as sa~n~naavantaana.m puggalaanam.}, or, in this becoming is perception: - thus "perception-becoming." The contrary is becoming of non-perception. Owing to the absence of gross perception and the presence of refined perception there is, in this becoming, neither perception nor non-perception. Becoming mixed with one aggregate of matter is one-constituent-becoming, which also means, that in it there is one mixture. And the same with becomings of four and five constituents. Tattha kaamabhavo pa~nca upaadi.n.nakkhandhaa. Tathaa ruupabhavo. Aruupabhavo cattaaro sa~n~naabhavo pa~nca. Asa~n~naabhavo eko upaadi.n.nakkhandho. Nevasa~n~naanaasa~n~naabhavo cattaaro. Ekavokaarabhavaadayo ekacatupa~ncakkhandhaa upaadi.n.nakkhandhehiiti evamettha dhammatopi vi~n~naatabbo vinicchayo. 255. Herein, sense-desire becoming is five aggregates acquired through kamma (clung to). Likewise the fine-material becoming. Immaterial becoming is four. Percipient becoming is four and five. Non-percipient becoming is one aggregate that is acquired through kamma (clung to). Neither-percipient-nor-non-percipient becoming is four. One-constituent becoming, etc., are respectively one, four, and five, aggregates as aggregates that are acquired through kamma (clung to). This is how the exposition should be know here 'as to state'. {PoP p.687} Of them (in nine kinds) becoming of sense-desires is the five derived aggregates, likewise matter-becoming. Non-matter-becoming is four such aggregates. Perception-becoming is four or five. Non-perception-becoming is one derived aggregate; becoming of neither perception nor non-perception is four. Becomings of one constituent and so forth are one, four, five aggregates by way of derived aggregates. Thus by way of states should the conclusion be understood. #85195 From: han tun Date: Wed Apr 30, 2008 7:58 pm Subject: Re: What I heard, transcription of tape, to Han hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much for taking all the trouble to write down the transcription from the session at the Foundation, for my benefit and to help me understand the difficult subject. > Nina: I transcribed part of your session with Kh Sujin. Do not hesitate to fire back. You said that the question of non-self causes so much confusion that you rather leave it. But see here in my transcription: < This is not easy to understand. If one has not heard the truth, one cannot imagine how it is possible that there is no “Iâ€?, no world.> Nobody says that anatta is easy to understand, we all have confusion and ignorance. Here is the transcription: Khun Sujin: < (end quote). > Nina: When I was reading this transcription to Lodewijk he said that there cannot be any other way to understand anatta but to understand the reality of the present moment. ------------------------------ Han: I fully agree with what is written in your post including the transcription and your remarks. The only problem with me is I want to simplify things, becaue I can manage only simple ones. There are many wrong views mentioned in the literature. But for me, I consider that I have only two wrong views atta and attaniya. I take atta as considering the five aggregates are I or Han. To this category it may be added that it is I who do this or that. I take attaniya as the five aggregates are my five aggregates, and they belong to me. To this category external things are added, like my son, my wife, my house, my car etc. ------------------------------ Having said that I ask myself what is atta? I read in PTS Dictionary: Atta: The soul as postulated in the animistic theories held in Northern India in the 6th and 7th cent. B. C. It is described in the Upanishads as a small creature, in shape like a man, dwelling in ordinary times in the heart. It escapes from the body in sleep or trance; when it returns to the body life and motion reappear. It escapes from the body at death, then continues to carry on an everlasting life of its own. For numerous other details see Rh. D. Theory of Soul in the Upanishads. Buddhism repudiated all such theories, thus differing from other religions. http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/getobject.pl?c.0:1:533.pali Based on the above, I believe that the people, before Buddha’s enlightenment and preaching of the doctrine of anatta, believed in the existence of that small creature. One Burmese Sayadaw said that the people at that time believed that the Mahaa-brahmaa or the chief of gods, the creator of the Universe, had put that small creatrure inside the bodies of the beings, and when their souls were purified completely, that small creature would leave the body for good and join its creator. In PTS Dictionary the atta was said to be described in the Upanishads. What are the Upanishads? The Upanishads are a collection of Indian speculations on the nature of reality and the soul and the relations between these two. The texts date from around 600 BC. http://members.aol.com/heraklit1/upanish.htm Therefore it is possible that when the Buddha was preaching the doctrine of anatta, among others, he might be repudiating the existence of that small creature, called atta. If that is the case, I do not have to worry about this small creature, because I do not believe in the existence of it. ------------------------------ Now, I read Anattalakka.na Sutta. The Buddha asked: “yam panaa niccam dukkham vipari.naama dhammam, kallam nu tam samanupassitum “etam mama, esohamasmi, esome attaa’tiâ€? “Is what is impermanent, suffering, and subject to change fit to be regarded thus: ‘This is mine, this I am, this is my self’?â€? [B.B. translation] When I read this with the idea of atta as described in the Upanishads, I take it that when the Buddha asked whether the form is to be regarded as this is my self (esome attaa), he was asking whether the form is that small creature? [Or in other words, by that question, the Buddha might be questioning the belief of those people who believed in the existence of that small creature as described in the Upanishads.] As I do not believe in the existence of that small creature, I have no problem with that question of the Buddha. With the remaining two, this is mine (etam mama) is the same as my second wrong view; and this I am (esohamasmi) is the same as my first wrong view. Thus I have only two wrong views. That’s how I draw my conclusions. I may be completely wrong with my interpretations and conclusions, but I am happy with it. If any thing more complicated than that, I am confused. -------------------------- Now, when I try to abandon these atta and attaniya, I am sure Khun Sujin’s teachings and your posts will come as a very useful approach for me to follow, and I thank you very much for that. Respectfully, Han #85196 From: "sîlânanda" Date: Wed Apr 30, 2008 7:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Download the Whole......Accesstoinsight.org......website silananda_t Dear Ramesh, Dhamma Greetings. Yours in the Dhamma 2 ... mahakaruna, ~upÄ?saka sÄ«lÄ?nanda On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 10:08 PM, Ramesh Patil wrote: > Dear Dhammamaster, > Thanks for such a valuable dhamma gift... <....> #85197 From: "szmicio" Date: Wed Apr 30, 2008 11:05 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] doubts szmicio thanks Larry > I think Nina or Sarah might be able to give you a better answer. >How is the meditation going? I think my sitting is OK. bye Lukas #85198 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu May 1, 2008 2:02 am Subject: Re:Q. [dsg] Re: What I heard, transcription of tape, to Han nilovg Dear Han, Op 1-mei-2008, om 4:58 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > “Is what is impermanent, suffering, and subject to change fit to be > regarded thus: ‘This is mine, this I am, this is my self’?” [B.B. > translation] > > When I read this with the idea of atta as described in the > Upanishads, I take it that when the Buddha asked whether the form > is to be regarded as this is my self (esome attaa), he was asking > whether the form is that small creature? [Or in other words, by > that question, the Buddha might be questioning the belief of those > people who believed in the existence of that small creature as > described in the Upanishads.] > > As I do not believe in the existence of that small creature, I have > no problem with that question of the Buddha. > > With the remaining two, this is mine (etam mama) is the same as my > second wrong view; and this I am (esohamasmi) is the same as my > first wrong view. > > Thus I have only two wrong views. That’s how I draw my conclusions. ------- N: According to the commentaries, this is mine refers to just clinging, without wrong view; this I am, refers to conceit and this is my self’ refers to wrong view. It is important to understand the meaning of atta, and we may read about this, but we may not see how deeply rooted it is. The Buddha teaches the three characteristics of realities: impermanence, dukkha and anattaa and in the Samyutta Nikaaya, Salaayatanavagga, we see their connection: what is impermanent is dukkha, what is dukkha is anattaa. This is said of the eye, of visible object, of all the experiences through the senses and the mind-door. Again and again. This reminds us that we are bound to take seeing at this moment for self, visible object appearing at this moment for self. -------- H: I take atta as considering the five aggregates are I or Han. To this category it may be added that it is I who do this or that. I take attaniya as the five aggregates are my five aggregates, and they belong to me. To this category external things are added, like my son, my wife, my house, my car etc. ------- N: We may cling to family members, friends, possessions without wrong view, with conceit or with wrong view. We have so much ignorance, it is common to all of us. But, as I transcribed:< There is no self, only conditioned realities from birth to death, from life to life.> You said that you are not taken to complicated matters. Actually, attending to the characteristic of one reality at a time which appears now, through one doorway at a time, is not all that complicated. This is the way to learn the truth, but only very, very gradually. Nina. #85199 From: han tun Date: Thu May 1, 2008 2:37 am Subject: Re: What I heard, transcription of tape, to Han hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much for your further clarifications which I find very useful. > Nina: According to the commentaries, this is mine refers to just clinging, without wrong view; this I am, refers to conceit and this is my self’ refers to wrong view. It is important to understand the meaning of atta, and we may read about this, but we may not see how deeply rooted it is. The Buddha teaches the three characteristics of realities: impermanence, dukkha and anattaa and in the Samyutta Nikaaya, Salaayatanavagga, we see their connection: what is impermanent is dukkha, what is dukkha is anattaa. This is said of the eye, of visible object, of all the experiences through the senses and the mind-door. Again and again. This reminds us that we are bound to take seeing at this moment for self, visible object appearing at this moment for self. ------- > Nina: We may cling to family members, friends, possessions without wrong view, with conceit or with wrong view. We have so much ignorance, it is common to all of us. But, as I transcribed: You said that you are not taken to complicated matters. Actually, attending to the characteristic of one reality at a time which appears now, through one doorway at a time, is not all that complicated. This is the way to learn the truth, but only very, very gradually. -------- Han: I find it useful the Commentary interpretation: 'this is mine' refers to just clinging, without wrong view; 'this I am' refers to conceit; and 'this is my self’ refers to wrong view. I have also noted your remark: We may cling to family members, friends, possessions without wrong view, with conceit or with wrong view. Finally, I will take your advice: Actually, attending to the characteristic of one reality at a time which appears now, through one doorway at a time, is not all that complicated. This is the way to learn the truth, but only very, very gradually. Thank you very much. Respectfully, Han