#87200 From: han tun Date: Thu Jun 19, 2008 4:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Error in the Vism. Part III Comprehend & Comprehended hantun1 Dear Tep and Sarah, Tep: No, I do not have it, our good Doctor Han Tun began his Pali contribution later. Han: If you like, I can give the Pali Text now. 20-24 ~Naa.na pa~ncaka niddesa Katham (1) abhi~n~naa pa~n~naa ~naata.t.the ~naa.nam, (2) pari~n~naa pa~n~naa tiira.na.t.the ~naa.nam, (3) pahaane pa~n~naa pariccaaga.t.the ~naan.nam, (4) bhaavanaa pa~n~naa ekarasa.t.the ~naa.nam, (5) sacchikiriyaa pa~n~naa phassana.t.the ~naa.nam: (1) Ye ye dhammaa abhi~n~naataa honti te te dhammaa ~naataa honti, (2) ye ye dhammaa pari~n~naataa honti te te dhammaa tiiritaa honti, (3) ye ye dhammaa pahiina honti te te dhammaa pariccattaa honti, (4) ye ye dhammaa bhaavitaa honti te te dhammaa ekarasaa honti, (5) ye ye dhammaa sacchikataa honti te te dhammaa phassitaa honti. Tam ~naata.t.thena ~naa.nam, pajaanana.t.thena pa~n~naa. Tena vuccati: (1) abhi~n~naa pa~n~naa ~naata.t.the ~naa.nam, (2) pari~n~naa pa~n~naa tiira.na.t.the ~naa.nam, (3) pahaane pa~n~naa pariccaaga.t.the ~naa.nam, (4) bhaavanaa pa~n~naa ekarasa.t.the ~naa.nam, (5) sacchikiriyaa pa~n~naa phassana.t.the ~naa.nam. ------------------------------ Han: The numberings are done by me. Based on the above text, the five understanding can then be listed as follows. (1) Whatever ideas (dhammas) are directly known are known. (abhi~n~naa pa~n~naa ~naata.t.the ~naa.nam) (2) Whatever ideas are fully understood are judged (investigated ). (pari~n~naa pa~n~naa tiira.na.t.the ~naa.nam) (3) Whatever ideas are abandoned are given up. (pahaane pa~n~naa pariccaaga.t.the ~naan.nam) (4) What ever ideas are developed have a single function (rasa, taste). (bhaavanaa pa~n~naa ekarasa.t.the ~naa.nam) (5) Whatever ideas are realized are sounded (phassita) (sacchikiriyaa pa~n~naa phassana.t.the ~naa.nam) The English translations are taken from Tep’s presentation shown earlier in the post. Respectfully, Han #87201 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jun 19, 2008 12:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Respecting the conventional teaching. upasaka_howard Hi, Phil (and Ken) - In a message dated 6/18/2008 11:14:29 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, philco777@... writes: Hi Ken No, it's the other kind of truth, the Pali word for conventional truth. I think it sounds something like samyutta - something like that. -------------------------------------------- Howard: On the chance that you're not just kidding, the phrase is 'sammuti vaca', meaning "conventional speech." As regards speech, it is actually ALL a matter of convention. So, in that context I interpret 'sammuti' to mean "non-literal" and "just in a manner of speaking." So, for example, when I say that a flock of geese veers left, more literal speech would refer to the actions taken by the individual geese relative to each other. The referring to the flock's action is an abbreviational convenience. ------------------------------------------- I love them similes though! Come to think of it, you have a point. It is often through similes that the Buddha makes great use of the conventional teaching...For example, the blind sea turtle whose probability of rising to the surface through a yoke (?) floating on the sea is as good as the probability of a human birth, if I recall correctly. A conventional teaching to urge us to...well, nevermind. ;) Metta, Phil ============================== With metta, Howard #87202 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Thu Jun 19, 2008 4:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Views re self & the world DN2 egberdina Hi Jon, 2008/6/17 jonoabb : > Hi Herman > >> On reading your post, the thought arose that I could read all the >> suttas of a representative body of Buddhist teachings, like the 152 >> suttas of the MN, and index them as to whether the audience was >> householders, and whether the message was a recommendation from the >> Buddha that the householders life was a good context in which >> understanding would develop. > > You would of course get a low ratio of positives on that question; but > I don't think it'd be a particularly useful question to ask. > > The Buddha frequently praised the *monk's life, properly lived*, but > not the *monk's life* per se. The distinction is important (see the > suttas on the perils of being a monk with bad sila). I agree the distinction is important. See MN65: 'Venerable sir, what is the reason that earlier, with few rules many bhikkhus attained extinction, and now with many rules a few bhikkhus attain extinction?' 'Baddali, it happens when human beings diminish in good and when the Teaching deteriorates. Many rules are appointed few bhikkhus attain extinction.' The Buddha is calling a spade a spade here. The Patimokkha rules are an indictment of the sangha that needs them. But you have put your own spin on my post, which made no reference to monks. So it is not a > case of one lifestyle being necessarily more suitable than another for > the development of insight. Your conclusion does not follow. Just because there are an increasing number of monks unworthy of almsfood, does not mean that renunciation is not fundamental to insight. > > And while you're browsing through MN, see the sutta about the > layperson who attained stream-entry on listening to the Buddha, and > then left to attend to his regular business (no suggestion by the > Buddha that he should do other than that). (But you may not find this > sutta on the ati website.) I don't doubt that such a sutta exists, although I do not know it. If the suggestion is that one can be absorbed in the affairs of the world and be free from suffering simultaneously, then I'll happily pass judgment on that sutta without needing to read it. But tell me, Jon, if 151 suttas say one thing, and 1 sutta says another, why latch onto that 1 sutta? > >> I then realised that I already knew, and didn't need to be convinced >> of what the outcome of such a statistical analysis would be. I also >> realised that I would be going to all that effort in vain, if my hope >> was that some people would realise that these teachings of the Buddha >> were not directed at people with their snouts in the trough of >> sensuality and fully intent on keeping them there (Do you like the >> turn of phrase ? :-)) > > Love the turn of phrase, but disagree with the sentiment ;-)). > > The development of insight is for all, including those with strong > attachments to worldly pleasures. Of course, such attachments are not > a help to the development of insight, but neither are they a > hindrance, except of course when manifesting. I do not know what unmanifested attachment would refer to. A bit like unmanifested panna, I expect :-) If your premise is that insight is possible for anyone, regardless of what they do, then I will politely disagree. And I will refer you back to the Buddha acknowledging in MN65 that even in his lifetime, the number attaining the goal for which the holy life is lived became a trickle. And not long after the parinibbana of the Buddha, noone in the Theravadan tradition is credited with any attainments anymore. And in the period of the commentators, belief in the possibility of nibbana is actively suspended. > We are all "people with > their snouts in the trough of sensuality" and for the most part we are > "fully intent on keeping them there", with the moments of detachment > from the delights within the trough being relatively few. Quite so. And this will not change if we take our lead from commentators who have achieved nothing in terms of Path, and deny others any other possibility. The Way of the Elders goes where, Jon? Cheers Herman #87203 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jun 19, 2008 1:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] What is thinking? upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Lukas) - As I've mentioned before, ad nauseum no doubt, you engage in an agent mode of expression that troubles me. In a message dated 6/19/2008 3:09:28 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Dear Lukas, your questions are always good. You really consider the Dhamma. Op 18-jun-2008, om 20:51 heeft szmicio het volgende geschreven: > What is thinking? How this thinking arise? Who or what thinks? --------- N: It is citta that thinks, not you. If there were no citta there could not be any thinking. Because there is thinking you know that there is citta which experiences objects. Citta thinks on account what is experienced through the sense-doors. --------------------------------------------- Howard: To say that it is citta that thinks (or cittas that think) is to imagine little discourse agents/thinkers, little selves, that act. And this is not so. There are instances of thinking, and that's all - mere mental; activities that occur. But not entities that think. To speak of entities that think is to enunciate an atta-view, IMO. -------------------------------------------------- Seeing experiences visible object and seeing and visible object are realities. ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Seeing is not some "thing" that experiences visible objects. See IS the experiencing of visible objects. Any instance of seeing is a mental activity. It is an event that occurs, not an agent that acts. ------------------------------------------------ On account of what is seen we think of many stories, we have ideas about what was seen, and these are not realities but concepts. The persons we think of are not realities, they are concepts or ideas. In the ultimate sense there is no person to be found. ------------------------------------------------- Howard: And also in the ultimate sense, there are no citta-things. There is just knowing (of object). ============================ With metta, Howard #87204 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Thu Jun 19, 2008 5:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] What is found in Buddhagosa but not in Abhidhamma itself? egberdina Hi Tep, 2008/6/19 Tep : > > Dear Herman, - > > I am not clear about what the author (BB) is saying in the quote that > you posted earlier. Would you be kind enough to share your thought with > me? > BB is making some statements to the effect that there are a number of notions found in commentarial works that are not to be found in the Nikayas. I do not presume to speak on behalf of BB (who used to be flavour of the month here at dsg, but appears to have fallen out of favour), it is only my understanding of what I quoted. In favor of BB's claims, IMO, is that they are open to investigation. Anyone can research, if they are inclined, and resolve what he asserts to be true, false or otherwise. On the flipside, the claims of the commentators as to the source of the spurious notions that find no support in the Nikayas, well, you need to ask Buddha's mum about that :-) Cheers Herman #87205 From: "connie" Date: Thu Jun 19, 2008 5:49 am Subject: Re: Sundries nichiconn Dear Various and, Actually, Scott's first post in this new thread seems to me a lovely Intro to the Study Corner on, as we'd might've said: << DN 33, the Sangiiti Sutta, said to have been given by Saariputta, will be presented serially within this Corner. Broad in scope, the Sangiiti Sutta moves through a sweeping exposition of the Dhamma in a remarkably comprehensive fashion. The sutta was described by Walshe, in a note accompanying his translation, as being "undoubtedly a late Sutta." He cites Mrs. Rhys-Davids, who notes "[this sutta] contain[s] here and there matter which suggests that [it] took [its] present shape at a later date than the bulk of the rest of the Diigha"; Regarding the form the sutta takes, Mrs. Rhys-Davids states: "...that the materials are arranged on the plan observed at much greater length throughout the Fourth, or Anguttara Nikaya. This plan is not that of the first and second Nikayas, which are professedly grouped according to length, nor that of the third Nikaya, where the grouping is more intelligently done, namely, according to subject. It is a grouping where the points or chief items brought forward are grouped numerically and in arithmetical progression. Recourse to it must have been on mnemonic grounds, grounds that would be of great importance in an unwritten mass of doctrine." The sutta will be presented by way of the Paa.li, alternative english translations, and recourse to relevant translator notes and Commentarial material. >> A veritable feast of abhidhamma; good and good for you, like it or not. Believe it. Hang around. Even those bats who "heard the voice of two bhikkhus reciting the Abhidhamma and grasped a general idea [sare nimitta.m gahetvaa] that it was the Law, being unable to distinguish the good from the bad." Here, for reference, are the sources: *Suttapi.taka: Diigha Nikaaya, Paatikavaggapaa.li, 10. Sa'ngiitisutta.m CSCD _http://tipitaka.org/romn/_ * The Long Discourses of the Buddha: #33, The Chanting Together - Walshe, WP 1995 * The Compilation - An Outline, taken from Digha Nikaya III.33: Sangiti Suttanta - Michael Olds * XXXIII: Sangiiti Suttanta - The Recital; T.W. and C.A.F. Rhys Davids both, http://halfsmile.org/buddhadust/www.buddhadust.org/dhammatalk/give_ear/dn33_sang\ iti.htm_ RDs, http://wwwarchive.org/details/dialoguesofbuddh03davi >_ [bookofdiscipline04hornuoft_bw.pdf] From there, it's pot-luck. Thanks to those who have already contributed and welcome. To all, <> sincerely, << Scott >> / connie #87206 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Thu Jun 19, 2008 6:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sundries egberdina Hi connie, 2008/6/19 connie : > Dear Various and, > > A veritable feast of abhidhamma; good and good for you, like it or not. Believe it. Hang around. Even those bats who "heard the voice of two bhikkhus reciting the Abhidhamma and grasped a general idea [sare nimitta.m gahetvaa] that it was the Law, being unable to distinguish the good from the bad." > At least you leave no one in doubt that you have an agenda. Bring it on :-) Cheers Herman #87207 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Jun 19, 2008 6:10 am Subject: Re: Sundries scottduncan2 Dear James, Thanks for the reply. I think, 'This is not a reply and this is not a response': I noticed a whole bunch of things. At first, some sort of anxious, angry, sinking feeling and then some sort of wait-and-see vibe - in quick succession - so I read on... J: "I really like this post. It is real and open..." Scott: I'm like, 'When will the other shoe drop?' J: "Actually, it even made me feel somewhat sorry for you..." Scott: I go, 'Ahh, there it is.' And I'm like, 'James' is 'thus and so' and always does 'thus and so'. Annoyance again and thoughts of 'James' and the whole and accurate-seeming story of 'James' preaching and 'James' axe-grinding and why does 'James' do this and what is 'James' wanting. I go, 'Here he goes again' and I delete the message, reading it as I was in the e-mail folder - all of it very quick. I go feed the dog and cats. I think of James and DSG and Dhamma and Useless Contention. There is a succession of emotions and thoughts, as usual, and no real attending to what arises beyond the Precious Thoughts in my head while I do the chores and I return and fire up DSG and read on... J: "And it does beg the question: what are all these anti-KS folks doing in a KS-emphasis discussion group? Well, you have to look at the big picture..." Scott: I think of views and 'James' and Words and Opinions and Discerning Buddhists and Theravada and Mahayana and Tibetan and Devas. I recall - 'remember', the opposite of 'dismember'? - a story of me speaking to a kind Tibetan monk and reading the Tibetan writings and of feeling no affinity with the views. And then a series of forays and reading and discussing. And feelings and thinking and stories and fantasies and views and 'this teacher' and 'that teacher' and stories. I recall how 'Theravada' had a better 'feel' - Is this Discernment? - and then, as you say, the welter of views within Theravada. There is no 'Theravada' is there? Crazy. I recall a story of the experience of hearing about the difference between Concept and Reality - unthought of - and Alighting Upon It and Recognising It and Knowing It and Getting It Without Words because the words were all, 'What the hell - I'd have never come to this distinction by thinking about it'. I think of 'James' again, and this reply and now there are two views and how they just arise and one can no more control seeing something one way as seeing it another - can't help it - and how the views differ. J: "Scott, maybe it is a good idea for you to go off with your books and study alone...." Scott: It is a good idea. Not yet, it seems, though. I think we are all alone. I like to learn the Dhamma. I also like to read and study and think about the Dhamma. DSG is a fantasy. 'James' and 'Scott' and 'Everyone' are fantasies as well - for us both. 'I hate you' is a fantasy about 'I' and 'You'; the Hate is real. 'I love you' is a fantasy. Is it compassion? Thinking of 'DSG' and people and stories. Two views. Many experiences and much proliferation. No difference between sitting here and imagining a World called 'DSG' and being Anywhere Else imagining a World. The world is Now and Not-What-It-Seems, so the thought goes. And Experiencing. And sometimes, so few and far between, it is Very Quiet and Very Peaceful and there are No Words and there is dhamma and Dhamma... And then the World comes crashing in again and its 'James' and 'Scott' and 'This Thought' or 'That thought' or 'This Feeling' or 'That Feeling'. Sincerely, Scott. #87208 From: "Tep" Date: Thu Jun 19, 2008 6:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Error in the Vism. Part III Comprehend & Comprehended dhammanusarin Dear Han (Sarah and all others), - I appreciate your bullet-fast response to my impled request for Pali help. Thank you many times my dear friend. BTW what do the numbers 20-24 refer to? > > Han: If you like, I can give the Pali Text now. > > 20-24 ~Naa.na pa~ncaka niddesa > > Katham (1) abhi~n~naa pa~n~naa ~naata.t.the ~naa.nam, (2) pari~n~naa pa~n~naa tiira.na.t.the ~naa.nam, (3) pahaane pa~n~naa pariccaaga.t.the ~naan.nam, (4) bhaavanaa pa~n~naa ekarasa.t.the ~naa.nam, (5) sacchikiriyaa pa~n~naa phassana.t.the ~naa.nam: > > (1) Ye ye dhammaa abhi~n~naataa honti te te dhammaa ~naataa honti, (2) ye ye dhammaa pari~n~naataa honti te te dhammaa tiiritaa honti, (3) ye ye dhammaa pahiina honti te te dhammaa pariccattaa honti, (4) ye ye dhammaa bhaavitaa honti te te dhammaa ekarasaa honti, (5) ye ye dhammaa sacchikataa honti te te dhammaa phassitaa honti. > > Tam ~naata.t.thena ~naa.nam, pajaanana.t.thena pa~n~naa. Tena vuccati: (1) abhi~n~naa pa~n~naa ~naata.t.the ~naa.nam, (2) pari~n~naa pa~n~naa tiira.na.t.the ~naa.nam, (3) pahaane pa~n~naa pariccaaga.t.the ~naa.nam, (4) bhaavanaa pa~n~naa ekarasa.t.the ~naa.nam, (5) sacchikiriyaa pa~n~naa phassana.t.the ~naa.nam. > > ------------------------------ > > Han: The numberings are done by me. > Based on the above text, the five understanding can then be listed as follows. > > (1) Whatever ideas (dhammas) are directly known are known. > (abhi~n~naa pa~n~naa ~naata.t.the ~naa.nam) > > (2) Whatever ideas are fully understood are judged (investigated ). > (pari~n~naa pa~n~naa tiira.na.t.the ~naa.nam) > > (3) Whatever ideas are abandoned are given up. > (pahaane pa~n~naa pariccaaga.t.the ~naan.nam) > > (4) What ever ideas are developed have a single function (rasa, taste). > (bhaavanaa pa~n~naa ekarasa.t.the ~naa.nam) > > (5) Whatever ideas are realized are sounded (phassita) > (sacchikiriyaa pa~n~naa phassana.t.the ~naa.nam) > > The English translations are taken from Tep’s presentation shown earlier in the post. > .............................. T: It might be helpful for somone to know that the numbered Pali text above corresponds to the five understandings in Patim i, 265 as follows (the five numbers are inserted by me). He trains by adverting to these three kinds of training, he trains by knowing them, by seeing them, by reviewing them, by steadying [cognizance] upon them, by resolving with faith upon them, by exerting energy upon them, by establishing mindfulness upon them, by concentrating cognizance upon them, 1) by understanding them with understanding, 2) by directly knowing what is to be directly known, 3) by fully understanding what is to be fully understood, 4) by abandoning what is to be abandoned, 5) by realizing what is to be realized, he trains by developing what should be developed. ................................ With appreciation of your just-in-time help, Tep ==== #87209 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Jun 19, 2008 6:22 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sundries scottduncan2 Dear Herman, This is not a reply to you. H: "At least you leave no one in doubt that you have an agenda. Bring it on :-)" Scott: This is not what its for. Stop licking your lips. Please either discuss or leave the Discussants in Peace. When you return with a Bigger Stick, as you are wont, I'm not here. Sincerely, Scott. #87210 From: "Alex" Date: Thu Jun 19, 2008 6:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] What is found in Buddhagosa but not in Abhidhamma itself? truth_aerator Hello Phil, Herman and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > Hi Herman > > Thanks, I missed this. It is indeed what I remember reading, from the CMA intro, right? I think these points should just be acknowledged. If there are things that appear for the first time in Buddhagosa, it > should not be denied. And it doesn't necessarily mean that these > teachings are not valid or helpful, just that they have to be weighed > accordingly when compared to the original texts. > > Metta, > > Phil I agree. Furthermore, IMHO, whenever it is possible we should read the Originator Himself - the Buddha, rather than someone else's opinion on what they think that the Buddha has said. Best wishes, Alex #87211 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Thu Jun 19, 2008 6:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sundries egberdina Hi Scott, 2008/6/19 Scott Duncan : > Dear Herman, > > This is not a reply to you. > > H: "At least you leave no one in doubt that you have an agenda. > Bring it on :-)" > > Scott: This is not what its for. Stop licking your lips. Please > either discuss or leave the Discussants in Peace. > > When you return with a Bigger Stick, as you are wont, I'm not here. I'm sorry I'm in your way. But not sorry enough to not be there, obviously. Because to not be there one has to be ariyan. I hope you feel better soon, and I am looking forward to your series :-) Cheers Herman #87212 From: "R. K. Wijayaratne" Date: Thu Jun 19, 2008 6:01 am Subject: The Great Discourse on the Lion's Roar - VII * rwijayaratne Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammâ Sambuddhassa! Sakyamuni Sambuddha Vihara ~ Dhamma Message ~ <...> ________________________________ Taken from AccessToInsight.org1 Translated from Pali by Ñanamoli Thera & Bhikkhu Bodhi THE GREAT DISCOURSE ON THE LION'S ROAR - VII Majjhima Nikâya 12 - Maha-sihanada Sutta2 The Five Destinations and Nibbana — In BriefContinued from previous instalment Commentary: This instalment covers how a Samma-Sambuddha is able to see and understand the five destinations and the path and the way leading to these five destinations. 35. "Sâriputta, there are these five destinations. What are the five? Hell, the animal realm, the realm of ghosts, human beings and gods.15 Explanation: The Lord Buddha describes to Ven. Sâriputta the five destinations (that a being can be re-born in), viz. hellish realm(s), the animal realm, the realm of (hungry) ghosts, the human realm and divine realm(s).3 36. (1) "I understand hell, and the path and way leading to hell. And I also understand how one who has entered this path will, on the dissolution of the body, after death, reappear in a state of deprivation, in an unhappy destination, in perdition, in hell.3 Explanation: The Lord Buddha says that he understands hell (Comy. where one can be re-born as a hell-dweller) and the path and way (Comy. practices and habits performed with thoughts, words and deeds) leading to hell. He says that he also understands how someone who has taken the path leading towards hell, after their body falls/comes apart and dies, is re-born in a state of loss, misery, in hell. (2) "I understand the animal realm, and the path and way leading to the animal realm. And I also understand how one who has entered this path will, on the dissolution of the body, after death, reappear in the animal realm. Explanation: The Lord Buddha says that he understands animal realm (Comy. where one can be re-born as an animal) and the path and way leading to the animal realm. He says that he also understands how someone who has taken the path leading towards animal realm, after their body falls/comes apart and dies, is re-born in the animal realm. (3) "I understand the realm of ghosts, and the path and way leading to the realm of ghosts. And I also understand how one who has entered this path will, on the dissolution of the body, after death, reappear in the realm of ghosts. Explanation: The Lord Buddha says that he understands realm of (hungry) ghosts (Comy. where one can be re-born as a (hungry) ghost) and the path and way leading to the realm of (hungry) ghosts. He says that he also understands how someone who has taken the path leading towards realm of (hungry) ghosts, after their body falls/comes apart and dies, is re-born in the realm of (hungry) ghosts. (4) "I understand human beings, and the path and way leading to the human world. And I also understand how one who has entered this path will, on the dissolution of the body, after death, reappear among human beings. Explanation: The Lord Buddha says that he understands human world (Comy. where one can be re-born as a human being; present realm) and the path and way leading to the human world. He says that he also understands how someone who has taken the path leading towards human world, after their body falls/comes apart and dies, is re-born in the human world. (5) "I understand the gods, and the path and way leading to the world of the gods. And I also understand how one who has entered this path will, on the dissolution of the body, after death, reappear in a happy destination, in the heavenly world. Explanation: The Lord Buddha says that he understands divine realm(s) (Comy. where one can be re-born as a divine being) and the path and way leading to the divine realm(s). He says that he also understands how someone who has taken the path leading towards the divine realm(s), after their body falls/comes apart and dies, is re-born in the divine realm(s). (6) "I understand Nibbana, and the path and way leading to Nibbana. [74] And I also understand how one who has entered this path will, by realizing it for himself with direct knowledge, here and now enter upon and abide in the deliverance (vimutti) of mind and deliverance by wisdom (paññâ) that are taintless with the destruction of the taints. Explanation: The Lord Buddha says that he understands Nibbâna (Comy. a state where one is no longer re-born at all) and the path and way (Comy. practices and habits performed with thoughts, words and deeds, in this case, namely the Noble Eightfold Path) leading to Nibbâna. He says that he also understands how someone who has taken the path leading towards Nibbâna, here and now enters and abides in the deliverance/freedom of mind through wisdom, that is free of all mental taints/defilements, by realizing it (Nibbâna) for him/herself through direct knowledge (and experience). <...> Notes1. More suttas from AccessToInsight.org can be found here http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sutta.html 2. This sutta can be found in full here http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.012.ntbb.html and an alternate translation of this sutta can be found here http://www.mettanet.org/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima1/012-ma\ hasihanada-sutta-e1.html 3. Also refer to The Thirty-one Planes of Existence here http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sagga/loka.html <....> #87213 From: han tun Date: Thu Jun 19, 2008 7:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Error in the Vism. Part III Comprehend & Comprehended hantun1 Dear Tep, Tep: With appreciation of your just-in-time help, Han: I will always be happy to contribute whatever I can. -------------------- Tep: BTW what do the numbers 20-24 refer to? Han: 20-24 represents the numbers of ~naanas in 73 ~naanas. -------------------- Tep: It might be helpful for somone to know that the numbered Pali text above corresponds to the five understandings in Patim i, 265 as follows (the five numbers are inserted by me). Han: I print below the Pali text after your extract. I do not know the paragraph number because I do not have the English translation, but I find this Pali text towards the end of Siilamaya ~naana, just before Samaadhi-bhaavanaamaya ~naana. He trains by adverting to these three kinds of training, he trains by knowing them, by seeing them, by reviewing them, by steadying [cognizance] upon them, by resolving with faith upon them, by exerting energy upon them, by establishing mindfulness upon them, by concentrating cognizance upon them, 1) by understanding them with understanding, 2) by directly knowing what is to be directly known, 3) by fully understanding what is to be fully understood, 4) by abandoning what is to be abandoned, 5) by realizing what is to be realized, he trains by developing what should be developed. Imaa tisso sikkhaayo aavajjanto sikkhati, jaananto sikkhati, passanto sikkhati, paccavekkhanto sikkhati, cittam adhi.t.thahanto sikkhati, saddhaaya adhimuccanto sikkhati, viiriyam pagga.nhanto sikkhati, satim upa.t.thapento sikkhati, cittam samaadahanto sikkhati, pa~n~naaya pajaananto sikkhati, abhi~n~neyyam abhijaananto sikkhati, pari~n~neyyam parijaananto sikkhati, pahaatabbam pajahanto sikkhati, sacchikaatabbam sacchikaronto sikkhati, bhaavetabbam bhaavento sikkhati, Respectfukky, Han #87214 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 19, 2008 7:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What is thinking? nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 19-jun-2008, om 11:03 heeft szmicio het volgende geschreven: > There is: > kusala citta > akusala citta > vipakacitta > and kiriyacitta > > what do you mean saying kusala or akusala citta? Do you mean kusala or > akusala kamma? or kusala/akusala vipaka too? > > What is a difference between kusala/akusala citta and vipakacitta? > --------- N: Kusala citta is accompanied by non-attachment and non-aversion, and by many other beautiful cetasikas which assist the kusala citta, such as confidence in kusala, sati, hiri and ottappa which see the disadvantage and danger of akusala. It may be accompanied by pa~n~na or it may not. Akusala citta is always accompanied by ignorance, and it may be accompanied by attachment or by aversion or anger. Each citta is accompanied by volition, cetanaa, and cetanaa which accompanies kusala citta or akusala citta may motivate deeds through body, speech or mind. Then it is kusala kamma or akusala kamma. However, this is not always the case, it depends on the intensity of kusala citta and akusala citta. Vipaakacitta is the result of kamma. Kusala vipaakacitta is the result of kusala kamma and akusala vipaakacitta is the result of akusala kamma. Vipaakacitta is not active, it does not motivate deeds, it is merely result. Nina. #87215 From: "Alex" Date: Thu Jun 19, 2008 7:56 am Subject: [dsg] Monks, Laypeople, distractions, etc truth_aerator Hi Herman, Scott, and all --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: And while you're browsing through MN, see the sutta about the layperson who attained stream-entry on listening to the Buddha, and then left to attend to his regular business (no suggestion by the Buddha that he should do other than that). (But you may not find this sutta on the ati website.) >>> Anathapindika, Sarakani and many other people. However, this is a big however, the moment of achieving stream entry involves Jhana, perhaps up to 4th Jhana, and Jhana is possible for a stream enterer. However if one for some reason can't attain Jhana in this life, then I don't know if one can become Ariya. There can be lay anagamis as well. The trick is that they are masters of 4 Jhanas, which can be TOUGH for a householder living in XXI century to accomplish. Even today, some monks have MORE distractions than householders in antique India. "The layman Kakudha, Ananda, through the destruction of the five lower fetters (that bind beings to the world of the senses), has arisen spontaneously (among the Suddhavasa deities), and will come to final cessation in that very place, not liable to return from that world. "So it is with Kalinga, Nikata, Katissabha, Tuttha, Santuttha, Bhadda, and Subhadda, and with more than fifty laymen in Nadika. More than ninety laymen who have passed away in Nadika, Ananda, through the destruction of the three fetters, and the lessening of lust, hatred, and delusion, have become once-returners and are bound to make an end of suffering after having returned but once more to this world. "More than five hundred laymen who have passed away in Nadika, Ananda, through the complete destruction of the three fetters have become stream-enterers, and are safe from falling into the states of misery, assured, and bound for Enlightenment. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.16.1-6.vaji.html#chap5 > > If your premise is that insight is possible for anyone, regardless of what they do, then I will politely disagree. >>> I too disagree. Person can't achieve ariyahood if the kammic obstructions are present. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And I will refer you back to the Buddha acknowledging in MN65 that even in his lifetime, the number attaining the goal for which the holy life is lived became a trickle. And not long after the parinibbana of the Buddha, noone in the Theravadan tradition is credited with any attainments anymore. And in the period of the commentators, belief in the possibility of nibbana is actively suspended. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Let us think, why? People started reading too much of what someone thinks that Buddha has said and started to trust certain commentators. One commentator himself implies that their methods don't work and thus can only write commentary in order to gain merit and achieve Awakening during Buddha Metteyya. The thing is that even during Buddha's time there were certain rogue monks, who had their own following. Heck, there were Devadattins, followers of Devadatta. So they or some of them could have been classified as some ancient "elders who seen Buddha face to face". And hopefully these weren't the sources for some ancient commentaries (I am not implying that all ancient commentaries came from Devadatta, Arittha, Sati and such. )... As time went one, especially after Maha Parinibbana, too much self interpretations have arisen and many sects have appeared. Of course it goes without question that some monks genuinely wanted to help, to explain the Buddha's teaching better (hey, how can someone explain Buddha better than Buddha himself?). ... Best wishes, Alex #87216 From: "Tep" Date: Thu Jun 19, 2008 8:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] What is found in Buddhagosa but not in Abhidhamma itself? dhammanusarin Dear Herman (and Sukin), - I asked: I am not clear about what the author (BB) is saying in the quote that you posted earlier. Would you be kind enough to share your thought with me? And your reply is: >Herman: I do not presume to speak on behalf of BB (who used to be flavour of the month here at dsg, but appears to have fallen out of favour), it is only my understanding of what I quoted. T: That is fair enough. As to BB's fading acceptance by some DSG members in one month, you should notice that the average acceptance time of the DSG gang is only about one week. So, one month is not bad at all. >Herman : In favor of BB's claims, IMO, is that they are open to investigation. T: Anybody's "claim" should be open to investigation all the time. You should consult with Detective Sukin; he has a special investigation skill that you may find useful. ;-) Tep === #87217 From: "Tep" Date: Thu Jun 19, 2008 8:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Error in the Vism. Part III Comprehend & Comprehended dhammanusarin Dear Han, - You did a great job, my brother. > Han: 20-24 represents the numbers of ~naanas in 73 ~naanas. > > -------------------- > Han: I print below the Pali text after your extract. I do not know the paragraph number because I do not have the English translation, but I find this Pali text towards the end of Siilamaya ~naana, just before Samaadhi-bhaavanaamaya ~naana. > > He trains by adverting to these three kinds of training, > he trains by knowing them, > by seeing them, > by reviewing them, > by steadying [cognizance] upon them, > by resolving with faith upon them, > by exerting energy upon them, > by establishing mindfulness upon them, > by concentrating cognizance upon them, > 1) by understanding them with understanding, > 2) by directly knowing what is to be directly known, > 3) by fully understanding what is to be fully understood, > 4) by abandoning what is to be abandoned, > 5) by realizing what is to be realized, he trains by developing what should be developed. > > Imaa tisso sikkhaayo aavajjanto sikkhati, > jaananto sikkhati, > passanto sikkhati, > paccavekkhanto sikkhati, > cittam adhi.t.thahanto sikkhati, > saddhaaya adhimuccanto sikkhati, > viiriyam pagga.nhanto sikkhati, > satim upa.t.thapento sikkhati, > cittam samaadahanto sikkhati, > pa~n~naaya pajaananto sikkhati, > abhi~n~neyyam abhijaananto sikkhati, > pari~n~neyyam parijaananto sikkhati, > pahaatabbam pajahanto sikkhati, > sacchikaatabbam sacchikaronto sikkhati, > bhaavetabbam bhaavento sikkhati, > T: It is the correct identification. Thank you very much for helping me complete the on-going discussion on pari~n~naa for this thread (Part III of Error in the Vism). “The woods are lovely, dark and deep. But I have promises to keep, and miles to go before I sleep.â€? [Robert Frost] Now it is time that we can rest. Tep === #87218 From: "connie" Date: Thu Jun 19, 2008 8:27 am Subject: Re: Sundries nichiconn Dear Herman, H: "At least you leave no one in doubt that you have an agenda. Bring it on :-)" C: Good you remind me to consider the quality of my own side-dishes. Thank you. Leaving them aside for now, I present the unfleshed outline of DN33 itself: 1.1 [296 - Eva.m me suta.m - eka.m samaya.m] 1.2 [297 - Ubbhatakanavasandhaagaara.m] 1.3 1.4 1.5 1.6 [301 - Bhinnaniga.n.thavatthu] 1.7 1.8, 1.81, 1.8.2 [303 - eka.m] 1.9, 1.9(1)-(33) [304 - duka.m] 1.10, 1.10(1)-(60) [305 - tika.m] 1.11, 1.11(1)-(50) [306 - catukka.m] ====pa.thamabhaa.navaaro ni.t.thito 2.1, 2.1(1)-(26) [315 - pa~ncaka.m] 2.2, 2.2(1)-(22) [323 - chakka.m] 2.3, 2.3(1)-(14) [330 - sattaka.m] ====dutiyabhaa.navaaro ni.t.thito 3.1, 3.2(1)-(10) [333 - a.t.thaka.m] 3.2, 3.2(1)-(6) [340 - navaka.m] 3.3, 3.3(1)-(6) [345 - dasaka.m] 3.4 [349] ====suttanta endeth! Of course, even the vegetarian won't get much beyond learning something about counting out of just that, but what is counting to a treasurer? I like the bats... the consideration of my own blindness and inept reliance on 'what is heard'. I'm thinking here, of the Introductory Discourse in The Expositor [23-24]: << Herein three kinds of study of the three Pi.takas should be considered: study after the manner of one catching a snake, study for the purpose of salvation, and study as of a treasurer >> down to << The bhikkhu, who is ill trained in the Sutta, gets a wrong idea, not knowing the meaning of such passages as, 'There are, bhikkhus, four persons in the world,' concerning which it has been said, 'Owing to his wrong ideas, he accuses us, harms himself and produces much demerit.' Consequently he arrives at wrong views. The bhikkhu, who is ill trained in the Abhidhamma, makes his mind run to excess in metaphysical abstractions and thinks of the unthinkable. Consequently he gets mental distraction. >> peace, connie #87219 From: Dieter Möller Date: Thu Jun 19, 2008 9:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: moellerdieter Hi Connie (Herman), Sundries you wrote: Of course, even the vegetarian won't get much beyond learning something about counting out of just that, but what is counting to a treasurer? I like the bats... the consideration of my own blindness and inept reliance on 'what is heard'. I'm thinking here, of the Introductory Discourse in The Expositor [23-24]: << Herein three kinds of study of the three Pi.takas should be considered: study after the manner of one catching a snake, study for the purpose of salvation, and study as of a treasurer >> down to << The bhikkhu, who is ill trained in the Sutta, gets a wrong idea, not knowing the meaning of such passages as, 'There are, bhikkhus, four persons in the world,' concerning which it has been said, 'Owing to his wrong ideas, he accuses us, harms himself and produces much demerit.' Consequently he arrives at wrong views. The bhikkhu, who is ill trained in the Abhidhamma, makes his mind run to excess in metaphysical abstractions and thinks of the unthinkable. Consequently he gets mental distraction. >> D: beautiful introduction .. I am curious to read more .. Conerning your question 'what is counting to a treasurer' following passage from the Milindabanha (translation Conze), which I quoted recently in another topic provides a nice simile for the answer: 'The king asked: "And what is the mark of mindfulness?" - "Calling to mind and taking up." "How is calling to mind a mark of mindfulness?" - "When mindfulness arises, one calls to mind the dharmas which participate in what is wholesome and unwholesome, blamable and blameless, inferior and sublime, dark and light, i.e., these are the four applications of mindfulness, these the four right efforts, these the four roads to psychic power, these the five cardinal virtues, these the five powers, these the seven limbs of enlightenment, this is the holy eightfold path; this is calm, this insight, this knowledge and this emancipation. Thereafter the yogin tends those dharmas which should be tended, and he does not tend those which should not be tended; he partakes of those dharmas which should be followed, and he does not partake of those which should not be followed. It is in this sense that calling to mind is a mark of mindfulness." - "Give me a simile." - "It is like the treasurer of a universal monarch, who each morning and evening reminds his royal master of his magnificent assets: 'So many elephants you have, so many horses, so many chariots, so much infantry, so many gold coins, so much bullion, so much property; may Your Majesty bear this in mind.' In this way he calls to mind his master's wealth." unquote with Metta Dieter #87220 From: Sukinder Date: Thu Jun 19, 2008 9:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: response to hate mail etc - ... Credibility sukinderpal Dear Tep, Normally you write very good summaries, perhaps second only to Han here on dsg, but not this one made here. I have used my imagination, yes; however you have added your own imaginations in your summary and then went on in the end, to state that my own imagination has gone wild. ;-) ========= Tep: It is a little bit of fun reading your post, although it sounds somewhat like a police investigation of a suspect. Suk: Sorry about that, but remember, I was happy to leave it there your answer to my original post, but you wanted to pursue the matter and I had then to explain why I asked what I did. ========= Tep: These are the points (or 'charges'?) that you've made : 1. Tep has doubts -- he doubts the venerable Buddhaghosa and he doubts KenH's credibility (as a Buddhist). Sukin: The point being made was that Ken only stated what was within the Theravada tradition, whereas Herman in making the joke about the Buddha’s mother showed that he did not have the kind of confidence in it. When you then compared the two and remarked as you did, that seemed to indicate that you had doubts about the tradition to some degree. So it wasn’t about Ken at all, neither was it in this case about Buddhaghosa particularly, but the Theravada tradition which I took you to not have enough confidence in. I was imagining, yes, but not ‘wild’ was it? But you can prove yourself by clarifying your position and I will then happily admit to being overly imaginative. ;-) ========= Tep: 2. Tep's inquiry on the error, concerning "full understanding" in the Vism, puts him at odd with the population of the true Buddhists. Sukin: No of course not, I was not comparing you with Buddhists in general at all. And frankly I never even bothered to read any of the posts in that particular thread. I don’t also care whether or not you are conforming to the tradition. In attempting to understand the Dhamma itself I see no reason in trying to protect the Theravada tradition. My interest has been to determine what *is* the Dhamma and in doing this I argue against what I perceive at my present level of understanding to *not* be so. Why do I bother, probably because I like arguing, but then again it may also be to some extent due to a wish to help others? ========= 3. Lately, Tep has expressed some "reservations" on Buddhaghosa's credibility. That is unforgiving, because the venerable and the Vism are Holy. Sukin: Nah, too much imagination. Buddhaghosa is hardly ever the object of my veneration. As I’ve said here before, I hate reading the Visuddhimagga for the way the ideas in there have been expressed. I rely on Nina’s and some other people’s generosity in explaining and hence am able to understand it a little. ========= Tep: 4. Tep's reservations are caused by a "reaction" to, or disagreements with, some wise DSG members' views, rather than by his wierd desire to find faults with the venerable. Sukin: :-) Admittedly, I was imagining more here than I did elsewhere. ========= Tep: Before I reply to these points, it is better to get your approval first. I might misread you. :-) Sukin: There you have it. ========= >Sukin: But of course you may also have been influenced by other teachers, Buddhadasa perhaps? T: Wrong guess, Detective Sukin. Indeed, I admire venerable Buddhaghosa much more than Buddhadasa Bhikkhu. Tep: OK, and you will see that I did put a question mark. But know also that I was trying to take any implication of ‘arrogance’ away from you and place it on Buddhadasa alone. ========= >Sukin: Between believing, disbelieving and neither, I am for "neither". But even here who knows whether this is due to doubt or because one is questioning one's own preconceptions? If it is the former, I think it would be quite harmful. On the other hand, if one sees where one comes from, that I think is very useful. After all stories are just stories, if they don't serve the purpose of pointing to the Truth but instead cause one to move further away from it, your story and my story both are equally useless. Stories seemingly fantastic can be seen in light of the nature of "realities" and which would be due to confidence in the Dhamma. On the other hand, stories "believable" but without any clue about where one comes from in this, this may serve only to increase attachment, if not also wrong view and reflects lack of Saddha. >I hope you better understand where I'm coming from ;-). T: The posts I wrote are very simple and factual for readers who do not have imagination running wild. Please read my three-part presentation and tell me whether it is truthful or not. Examine the content, not a personality. Sukin: You sincerely believed at the time of writing your summary, that no imagination was involved on your part? And in asking me to ‘examine the content, and not a personality’ did you not reflect on your own judgments about me? I know that I’m a horrible detective, the DSG archives are there for anyone to check what any one else has said in the past, but I don’t have the ability to do the detective work. But you can tell me whether or not your confidence in Buddhaghosa waned gradually. I have said enough regarding what implications this has if true. But I don't think that I want to go any further. ============ Tep: I think you are coming from the world of fictions. Have you ever written a novel? Sukin: Swimming in the ocean of concepts I sure am. But I would never think of writing a Novel. Actually I did recently think of writing a book (not a novel though) as a means to earn an income, but later discovered that I had no metta towards the intended audience. I decided then, that writing the book would not be good kamma, so i dropped the idea. ;-) Metta, Sukin ps: I just had a glimpse at your post to Herman in which you called me 'detective'. Is that about some content to be discussed or was it seeking approval for your new found characterization of someone? #87221 From: Dieter Möller Date: Thu Jun 19, 2008 10:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Blind and the Cripple /Lame moellerdieter Hi Jon (Howard) you wrote: ' Hoping the picture is becoming a little clearer for you ;-)) D: not really .. likely to be a bit dense .. due to the complexity of the matter I did not trim very much ..may Sarah forgive ;-) Jon: ' I do not see any useful similarity between this quote from Philowiki and thge teaching regarding citta/vinnana.' D:the point was the vinnaya/citta - nama relation and my lack of understanding that nama (mind) includes vinnaya (consciousness), as you /Howard and other sources stated . There is a language problem (. e.g. we talk about absent minded, but of course still conscious) and -as far as I know - no generally accepted defintion for consciousness and mind exists, not to talk about differences of translation Pali -English -- English -German. The quotation gives evidence that at least part of the philosopher's discussion assumes mind to cover consciousness.. not vice versa as I think Jon: ( D: In Ven. Narada's Abh. manual it is said: 'Citta, Ceta, Cittupada ,Nama , Mano, > Vinnaya are all used as synonymous terms in Abh. ) To my understanding, in the Abhidhamma context, nama encompasses both citta and cetasika, whereas citta means citta only (i.e., without including cetasikas, even though the one never arises without the other). D: you mean , the Ven. is too general with his statement, isn't it? Jon: (D: V.N. : Hence from the Abh. point of view no distinction is made between mind and consciousness. When the so-called being is divided into its constituent parts, Nama (mind) is used . When its is divided into 5 aggregates (Pancakkhanda) Vinnaya is used. ') As far as I know, nama is not generally given as a synonym for vinnana. The term "nama" represents a class of dhammas when dhammas are classified as nama and rupa. Nama are those dhammas that experience an object (which object may be another nama or may be a rupa); rupa are those dhammas that do not experience an object. Dhammas may also be classified as citta, cetasika, rupa and nibbana. Under this classification, citta and cetasika (and nibbana) are the "nama" of the 2-fold nama and rupa classification. D: between ..there is another point I have difficulties in understanding: it is said that all dhammas are impermanent, isn't it ? Hence how can nibbana be classified under dhammas?? Jon: Dhammas may also be classified as rupa, vedana, sanna, sankhara and vinnana (the 5 khandhas). Under this classification, - vinnana is the "citta" of the 4-fold citta/cetasika/rupa/nibbana classification, - vedana, sanna and sankhara are the "cetasikas" of that classification. D: in D.O. vinnaya conditions nama and rupa , why is it/should it be limited to the that context .. isn't D.O. the Law .. which provides the rule for other uses ? Jon : (D: I remember the specification in acc. with the 5 clinging aggregates ..asking myself whether the nama rupa reference is limited to Abh or as well to be found in the suttas. and then, perhaps as matter of convenient speech ..to which the simile of the blind and the cripple makes sense ) The simile of the blind man and the cripple makes sense if nama is taken to mean citta and cetasikas, as in the above description. The meaning of nama as in the compound term "namarupa" in DO is limited to that context, as far as I know. D: citta and cetasikas? please compare with Visuddhi-Magga (chap. xviii.). Name has no power of its own, nor can it go on of its own impulse, either to eat, or to drink, or to utter sounds, or to make a movement. Form also is without power and cannot p. 185 [Vis.xviii go on of its own impulse. It has no desire to eat, or to drink, or to utter sounds, or to make a movement. But Form goes on when supported by Name, and Name when supported by Form. When Name has a desire to eat, or to drink, or to utter sounds, or to make a movement, then Form eats, drinks, utters sounds, makes a movement. To make this matter clear they give the following illustration: It is as if two men, the one blind from birth and the other a cripple, were desirous of going traveling. And the man blind from birth were to say to the cripple as follows: "See here! I am able to use my legs, but I have no eyes with which to see the rough and the smooth places in the road." And the cripple were to say to the man blind from birth as follows: "See here! I am able to use my eyes, but I have no legs with which to go forward and back." And the man blind from birth, pleased and delighted, were to mount the cripple on his shoulders. And the cripple sitting on the shoulders of the man blind from birth were to direct him, saying, "Leave the left and go to the right; leave the right and go to the left." Here the man blind from birth is without power of his own, and weak, and cannot go of his own impulse or might. The cripple also is without power of his own, and weak, and cannot go of his own impulse or might. Yet when they mutually support one another it is not impossible for them to go. In exactly the same way Name is without power of its own, and cannot spring up of its own might, nor perform this or that action. Form also is without power of its own, and cannot spring up of its own might, nor perform this or that action. Yet when they mutually support one another it is not impossible for them to spring up and go on." Jon: (D: Considering vinnaya aspects from D.O. like being condioned by sankhara (avijja), the interdependance with (3)nama rupa and its aspects of rebirth continuity, the nama understanding mind involving consciousness is not yet clear to me.Moreover in the advanced Jhana states of consciousness , like pure awareness, the aspect of mind seems to me not to apply.. ) Not sure what you mean by "advanced Jhana states of consciousness, like pure awareness", so am not able to comment on this. D: concerning rebirth, when we talk about rebirth conscíousness constituting nama and rupa , it makes no sense to have the idea nama would involve consciousness, doesn't it? Better to leave Jhana states out for now in order to limit the extend of possible confusion.. with Metta Dieter #87222 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 19, 2008 12:20 pm Subject: Re:Phil: [dsg] Re: Overview of KS 3: Her Faulty Teaching nilovg Hi Phil, Op 19-jun-2008, om 5:57 heeft Phil het volgende geschreven: > But as you know, there > was one recorded talk in particular that really set me off on this > point. If you come across that talk, where Nina tells AS that there > is someone who is concerned about committing serious transgressions, > could you perhaps put it up on the site for a short time, or > something like that. I would like to discuss it and maybe work out > some of my displeasure and mistrust. You see, I believe Dhamma > friends can be hugely influential in helping us to avoid bad > behaviour and not just by the "just understand" approach. -------- N: Was it that Kh said: it had happened already by conditions, no use to worry? If you have aversion about it, you accumulate more akusala. Anyway we are bound to do a lot of thinking of what is past already. This is not helpful. Better to know citta at this moment. Is it kusala or akusala? The "just understand approach": this is not an easy way out. It takes courage and detachment to understand whatever arises now. Also patience, patience if you detect a lot of akusala. You can understand that it is conditioned by the latent tendencies, by past accumulations. If you do not take it for my akusala, it means you have some degree of detachment. This will help you to face difficult situations in the future. Nina. #87223 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 19, 2008 12:38 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Subject: Sundries nilovg Dear Connie and Scott, Op 19-jun-2008, om 4:23 heeft connie het volgende geschreven: > scott, you're beautiful, man. ------ N: I join Connie. Looking forward to the series. Do not get discouraged if people do not react much or in a way that is not so pleasant, conditions, conditions. Scott, I like it when you say: Kh sujin is not my teacher, the Dhamma is my teacher. So true. I would not listen to her if it was not Dhamma that comes to me by her words, for us all to check in our daily life. When busy with your series you think of helping and this is the remedy against any burn out, but I am sure you know. Take courage, Nina. #87224 From: "m. nease" Date: Thu Jun 19, 2008 1:17 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Subject: Sundries m_nease Ditto and same to you, Connie-- mike connie wrote: > > > scott, you're beautiful, man. > connie #87226 From: "Tep" Date: Thu Jun 19, 2008 3:45 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: response to hate mail etc - revised and corrected edition dhammanusarin Dear Sukin, - We have a long conversation below. But this is a good one. Sukin: > Normally you write very good summaries, perhaps second only to Han here on dsg, but not this one made here. I have used my imagination, yes; however you have added your own imaginations in your summary and then went on in the end, to state that my own imagination has gone wild. ;-) > T: This time, admittedly I also imagined like you did. One's own imagination can easily go wild with no awareness. Partial truth feeds speculation and imagination that, in turn, easily distorts man's logical reasoning. ............... 1.) Sukin: >The point being made was that Ken only stated what was within the Theravada tradition, whereas Herman in making the joke about the Buddha�s mother showed that he did not have the kind of confidence in it. When you then compared the two and remarked as you did, that seemed to indicate that you had doubts about the tradition to some degree. So it wasn't about Ken at all, neither was it in this case about Buddhaghosa particularly, but the Theravada tradition which I took you to not have enough confidence in. >I was imagining, yes, but not 'wild' was it? But you can prove yourself by clarifying your position and I will then happily admit to being overly imaginative. ;-) T: It is a relief that you dropped the KenH & Buddhaghosa elements from Point 1. There is still an unresolved issue, however. How do you measure someone's confidence in the Theravada tradition without using your own view as the yardstick? I don't think you can, unless you have no conceit and can read a mind. Therefore, right now, it is purely speculation, not factual. My position is: I have an unshakable faith in the Buddha, the Teachings (defined as the three baskets, excluding the commentaries that are extension from, or incompatible with the suttas), and the ariya savakas (although, I haven't met one yet). However, I do not blindly believe in the every word of even noble disciples in the suttas, let alone teachings and commentaries of monks and lay persons who may not be the noble ones. .............. 2.) Sukin: >I was not comparing you with Buddhists in general at all. And frankly I never even bothered to read any of the posts in that particular thread. I don't also care whether or not you are conforming to the tradition. T: That is a strong opinion (smelling like an onion), Sukin. Sukin: > In attempting to understand the Dhamma itself I see no reason in trying to protect the Theravada tradition. My interest has been to determine what *is* the Dhamma and in doing this I argue against what I perceive at my present level of understanding to *not* be so. T: Good, I like your attitude of not wanting to be the Theravada Policeman. It is a bad kamma to handcuff people and take them for "investigation" ! I think the moment you contemplate the Dhamma in the right way, there will be only a consciousness that knows its object. Then you can tell what the Dhamma *is* . Sukin: > Why do I bother, probably because I like arguing, but then again it may also be to some extent due to a wish to help others? T: But the thought 'I am helping this person' might be driven by an unaware conceit. How can you tell? ............... 3.) Sukin: > Buddhaghosa is hardly ever the object of my veneration. As I've said here before, I hate reading the Visuddhimagga for the way the ideas in there have been expressed. I rely on Nina's and some other people's generosity in explaining and hence am able to understand it a little. T: No comment. ............. 4.) Sukin: > OK, and you will see that I did put a question mark. But know also that I was trying to take any implication of 'arrogance' away from you and place it on Buddhadasa alone. T: I do not enjoy seeing someone being taken as a scapegoat ! It is better to just tell me whenever you detect an arrogance. :-) Sukin: > You sincerely believed at the time of writing your summary, that no imagination was involved on your part? And in asking me to "examine the content, and not a personality" did you not reflect on your own judgments about me? T: I am guilty to most counts, Sukin. But I've already "sincerely" admitted it as stated above. ............. Sukin > ps: I just had a glimpse at your post to Herman in which you called me 'detective'. Is that about some content to be discussed or was it seeking approval for your new found characterization of someone? T: The term 'detective' here means 'one who investigates'. Haven't you already investigated me with repect to my Theravada position and thought -- even by asking this question is also an investigation, isn't it? But it is alright; whatever you want to know, just ask. Sincerely, Tep === #87229 From: "Alex" Date: Thu Jun 19, 2008 4:16 pm Subject: re: Overview of KS 3: Her Teaching on Conditions truth_aerator Dear Nina, Phil and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > -------- > N: Was it that Kh said: it had happened already by conditions, no use to worry? If you have aversion about it, you accumulate more akusala. >>> If everything happens due to "conditions" then what use to say "no use to worry?" if that happens (or not) due to conditions? >>>>>>> Anyway we are bound to do a lot of thinking of what is past already. This is not helpful. >>> Same as above. What choice does anyone has to do lots of thinking or not? >>>>>> The "just understand approach": this is not an easy way out. It takes courage and detachment to understand whatever arises now. >>>>> To me, meditation is harder - and I suspect that I am not the only one... Regarding conditions and such: In what major way are these KS conditions (utu/biija/kamma/citta/dhamma-niyama) different from Ajivika belief in causes and conditions (niyati)? I'd like to make it clear. I believe very much in conditional possibility, but not in 100% fixed necessity. Just because actions depend on certain things, doesn't mean that they are forced only in one possibility only, and cannot not happen. Best wishes, Alex #87230 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jun 19, 2008 12:21 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Blind and the Cripple /Lame upasaka_howard Hi, Dieter (and Jon) - In a message dated 6/19/2008 1:49:14 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, moellerdieter@... writes: D: between ..there is another point I have difficulties in understanding: it is said that all dhammas are impermanent, isn't it ? Hence how can nibbana be classified under dhammas?? =========================== Not all dhammas are said to be impermanent. Only the conditioned dhammas, the sankhata dhammas (or sankhara) are said to be. With metta, Howard #87231 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Thu Jun 19, 2008 4:31 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: response to hate mail etc - ... Credibility egberdina Hi Sukin and all, 2008/6/20 Sukinder : > > Dear Tep, > > > Sukin: The point being made was that Ken only stated what was within the > Theravada tradition, whereas Herman in making the joke about the > Buddha's mother showed that he did not have the kind of confidence in > it. Please don't tell me I know the tradition better than you. That would be a sad state affairs indeed. I state categorically, Sukin, that it IS part of the tradition that the Buddha taught Abhidhamma to his mother. If you will not accept that from me, perhaps someone Sukin has more faith in will confirm it on my behalf. Cheers Herman #87232 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Thu Jun 19, 2008 4:43 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: poster egberdina Hi colette, 2008/6/18 colette : > Good Morning Herman, > > > That's something I've always been envious of you scholars doing, how > easily you apply such a huge vocabulary, in this case the > word "discursive" is a complete word with it's own thoughts and > direct meanings. > Not that it matters, but I'm no scholar, colette. I do not profess what I have learnt, only what I have understood :-) > You take it, here, out of the field of academia where textbooks were > written for a single purpose, getting the point across, and that's > the only purpose for the text book where everything comes out nice > and easy and rosey for those that prefer seeing life through the > lenses, through the obscuration, of Rose Colored Glasses. In life 99% > of anything doesn't come out nice and easy, so why should the study > of Buddhism be something that life is not when the only point for > Buddhism is to help people live? I agree with you. > > Sure my ideas are radical, sure my methodology is bizare to say the > least, BUT IT WORKS! A lot of people cannot accept something working > that is not under the guidance of an instruction manual or magazine > such as Popular Mechanics, et al. > > The joy is the simple satisfaction of actually knowing that you or I > or anybody is participating in this. The rigidity and ignorance of > conformity is such a negative quality but monks in a prison or > sububranites in a prison (pick your poison which one you choose > since they are both imprisoned by their own free will) where it must > satisfy a publishers book and gratify the publisher and the author of > the book to have any applicability and meaning, are exactly like that. > > Have a good day buddy. > You too, friend, Cheers Herman #87233 From: "Tep" Date: Thu Jun 19, 2008 5:18 pm Subject: Re: Error in the Vism Definition of Pari~n~na (Full Understanding)? Part III dhammanusarin Dear Connie, (Nina) - >C: You make me laugh - eagleness. Say not! May we practice hummingbird [ & i, at least, less flea or mosquito (always leaving a bit of an itch)]. T: I am not fond of mosquitos either. It is very hard not to break the First Precept when they are feeding on this body (that is not mine). Will "not self" contemplation help better, or is pervading metta more effective? >C: Meanwhile, I enjoy meeting with you as a bookworm. T: It takes one to know one. Recently, this bookworm just crawled out of the book to experience the realities outside. [But it may have to revisit the book again and go outside again ... .] .............. >C: While (seldom if) ever in a position to judge (well & truly), judge, I do, and not "innocently", but with passion, prejudice, pride -- misgiving? T: That sounds like a nice poem to me. Why not just let go of the PPP altogether? [I know the "just do it" is not "that easy".] >C: For 'the egg-born' (ex: certain birds, a mosquito, the unhatched human) - where is Reason? The passage you cut earlier: insight with aasavas; not associated with the paths and their fruition. T: Isn't it true that trainers(sekha) attain certain paths and fruitions (not yet arahant's fruition), and they still possess aasavas to some degree? >C: The Guide/Netti: 400. 'Science' is a unity. Herein, what is science? It is knowledge about suffering, knowledge about the origin of suffering, knowledge about cessation of suffering, knowledge about the way leading to the cessation of suffering; knowledge about the past, knowledge about the future, knowledge about the past and future; knowledge about specific conditionality and dependently arisen ideas; ... T: In the Patisambhidamagga 'science' is 'vijjaa' in the supernormal power sense. Patism, XIX, 34. It thus follows that the knowledges(~nana) about the Noble Truths and about the three intervals (past, future, present) are only in the ariya puggalas who have vijjaa. True or false? >C: Unity and diversity. Very nice: [storied] palace of one and all. What's with the castle, anyway? I itch to read. T: I am itching to hear you tell me more. Tep === #87234 From: Sukinder Date: Thu Jun 19, 2008 5:19 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: response to hate mail etc - revised and corrected edition sukinderpal Dear Tep, ============= T: This time, admittedly I also imagined like you did. One's own imagination can easily go wild with no awareness. Partial truth feeds speculation and imagination that, in turn, easily distorts man's logical reasoning. Suk: Yes, quite uncontrollable isn’t it? Which is why we must not forget the value of developing satipatthana in daily life naturally. ============= 1.) Sukin: >The point being made was that Ken only stated what was within the Theravada tradition, whereas Herman in making the joke about the Buddha�s mother showed that he did not have the kind of confidence in it. T: It is a relief that you dropped the KenH & Buddhaghosa elements from Point 1. There is still an unresolved issue, however. How do you measure someone's confidence in the Theravada tradition without using your own view as the yardstick? I don't think you can, unless you have no conceit and can read a mind. Therefore, right now, it is purely speculation, not factual. My position is: I have an unshakable faith in the Buddha, the Teachings (defined as the three baskets, excluding the commentaries that are extension from, or incompatible with the suttas), and the ariya savakas (although, I haven't met one yet). However, I do not blindly believe in the every word of even noble disciples in the suttas, let alone teachings and commentaries of monks and lay persons who may not be the noble ones. Suk: First, I must apologize for even starting all this. It is none of my business to try to assess anyone’s level of confidence and is quite arrogant. I should perhaps have gone straight to discussing some Dhamma points with you which I had for a while wanted to do. The mistake was that I went on to associate those Dhamma issues with what I perceived as being your character. Perhaps it is easier to find fault with the character than to get on with any serious Dhamma discussion and that is what I ended up doing? But coming to Dhamma, I must say that I disagree with your criterion regarding being in the position to judge another person’s Saddha. If someone says that he does not believe in the teachings on the khandhas, conditionality, the tilakkhana, or value of the Sangha for example and instead insists on a belief in Soul and God, can’t we judge straight away that his level of saddha approaches zero? And in general doesn’t wrong understanding expressed by anyone, is in fact reflection of lack of saddha at that moment? ========= 2.) Sukin: >I was not comparing you with Buddhists in general at all. And frankly I never even bothered to read any of the posts in that particular thread. I don't also care whether or not you are conforming to the tradition. T: That is a strong opinion (smelling like an onion), Sukin. Suk: :-) I don’t see how, but never mind. ========= Sukin: > In attempting to understand the Dhamma itself I see no reason in trying to protect the Theravada tradition. My interest has been to determine what *is* the Dhamma and in doing this I argue against what I perceive at my present level of understanding to *not* be so. T: Good, I like your attitude of not wanting to be the Theravada Policeman. It is a bad kamma to handcuff people and take them for "investigation" ! I think the moment you contemplate the Dhamma in the right way, there will be only a consciousness that knows its object. Then you can tell what the Dhamma *is* . Suk: Thanks for the reminders. ========= Sukin: > Why do I bother, probably because I like arguing, but then again it may also be to some extent due to a wish to help others? T: But the thought 'I am helping this person' might be driven by an unaware conceit. How can you tell? Suk: Yes of course, no satipatthana in the moment, then we are just guessing and usually in service of the ‘self’ in one form or the other. ========= 3.) Sukin: > Buddhaghosa is hardly ever the object of my veneration. As I've said here before, I hate reading the Visuddhimagga for the way the ideas in there have been expressed. I rely on Nina's and some other people's generosity in explaining and hence am able to understand it a little. T: No comment. Suk: OK, thanks. ========= 4.) Sukin: > OK, and you will see that I did put a question mark. But know also that I was trying to take any implication of 'arrogance' away from you and place it on Buddhadasa alone. T: I do not enjoy seeing someone being taken as a scapegoat ! It is better to just tell me whenever you detect an arrogance. :-) Suk: Ok. ========= Sukin: > You sincerely believed at the time of writing your summary, that no imagination was involved on your part? And in asking me to "examine the content, and not a personality" did you not reflect on your own judgments about me? T: I am guilty to most counts, Sukin. But I've already "sincerely" admitted it as stated above. Suk: And I appreciate it. ========= Sukin > ps: I just had a glimpse at your post to Herman in which you called me 'detective'. Is that about some content to be discussed or was it seeking approval for your new found characterization of someone? T: The term 'detective' here means 'one who investigates'. Haven't you already investigated me with repect to my Theravada position and thought -- even by asking this question is also an investigation, isn't it? Suk: Yes, and I apologize for having done this directly or indirectly in terms of the ‘person’. ========= Tep: But it is alright; whatever you want to know, just ask. Suk: Thanks. I will take this opportunity to ask you a few questions about Dhamma in another post. Metta, Sukin #87235 From: "connie" Date: Thu Jun 19, 2008 5:19 pm Subject: Re: Sundries nichiconn Dear Dieter, Yes, the simile of the treasurer and the assets of the Majestic Mind is beautiful. Thank you for repeating it. You said you were curious to read more, and I think you meant of the Introductory Discourse in the Expositor, so I'll copy the section I quoted from for you below. peace, connie Expositor [23-24]: Herein three kinds of study of the three Pi.takas should be considered: study after the manner of one catching a snake, study for the purpose of salvation, and study as of a treasurer. Of these, that study which is badly acquired out of a desire to be vexatious to others, etc., is like catching a snake. Concering which it is said: 'Just as, bhikkhus, a person desirous of catching a snake goes out in search of one. He sees a big snake and catches it either by the body or the tail. And the snake turning back bites him on the hand, the arm, or any other part of the body big or small. On that account he dies or suffers pain approaching death. And why? Because, bhikkhus, of his bad catching of the snake. In the same way, bhikkhus, in the religion some good-for-nothing persons improperly study the doctrine in its various branches. Having studied the doctrine they do not intelligently consider the meaning of the text. And the meaning not being considered with understanding, those acquired doctrines do not lend themselves to close insight. These people study the doctrine for the purpose of annoying others or of freeing themselves from the criticism or scoffing of others. [*Or, 'to free oneself from the oppression of others'.] For whatever Good right-minded people study the doctrine, that Good these good-for-nothing people do not experience; and the doctrines being badly acquired are conducive to their disadvantage and misery for a long time. Wherefore? Because, bhikkhus, of their being badly acquired.' [MN i 133f] But that study, which is well acquired by one desirous of fulfilling a body of precepts, etc., and not for the sake of annoying others, is for the sake of salvation, concerning which it is said: 'The doctrines being well acquired conduce to the advantage and happiness for a long time. Wherefore? Because, bhikkhus, of their being well acquired. [MN i 134] Finally, the saint, who has acquired a complete knowledge of the aggregates, got rid of the corruptions, developed the Path, penetrated the Fruition of Arahantship, realized the Truth of Cessation, and extinguished the intoxicants, studies merely for the purpose of preserving the tradition, and of guarding the lineage of the doctrine. This is the study of the treasurer. The bhikkhu, who is well practised in the Vinaya, arrives, by fulfilling the precepts, at the three kinds of knowledge, which are fully treated of therein. The bhikkhu, who is well versed in the Suttas, arrives, by his attainment of concentration, at the six branches of super-knowledge, which are fully treated of therein. The bhikkhu, who is well cultivated in the Abhidhamma, arrives, by his attainment of understanding, at the four analyses, which are fully treated of therein. Thus the bhikkhu, who is well trained in the three Pi.takas, in due course arrives at the attainment of the three kinds of knowledge, the six branches of super-knowledge, and the four analyses. But the bhikkhu, who is ill trained in the Vinaya, imagines that there is no fault in the forbidden sensations of touch, because the touch of these is similar to that of blankets and cloaks, etc., which are pleasurable and are permitted by the Buddha. And it has been said: [MN i 130] 'I know the doctrine taught by the Blessed One, namely, that certain things are inimical (to progress), but that they are incapable of doing any harm to one who uses them in certain ways.' Consequently the bhikkhu arrives at evil practices. The bhikkhu, who is ill trained in the Sutta, gets a wrong idea, not knowing the meaning of such passages as, 'There are, bhikkhus, four persons in the world,' [D iii 232; M i 341; A ii 205] concerning which it has been said, 'Owing to his wrong ideas, [*Or, 'owing to his wrong nature or conduct'] he accuses us, harms himself and produces much demerit.' Consequently he arrives at wrong views. The bhikkhu, who is ill trained in the Abhidhamma, makes his mind run to excess in metaphysical abstractions and thinks of the unthinkable. For it has been said, 'Bhikkhus, there are four unthinkables, things that should not be thought of. Madness or vexation will be the portion of him who does so.' [A ii 80] Thus the bhikkhu, who is ill trained in the three Pi.takas in due course arrives at failure of different sorts, such as evil principles, wrong views, mental derangement. So far the import of the verse --- 'what each attains / In these three studies, how he may succeed, / Wherein he fails, let this too be explained' --- has been explained. Thus the three Pi.takas by the knowledge of the scriptures in various ways are to be known as the Buddha's word. #87236 From: Sukinder Date: Thu Jun 19, 2008 5:48 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: response to hate mail etc - ... Credibility sukinderpal Hi Herman (Ken and Tep), ============= > Sukin: The point being made was that Ken only stated what was within the > Theravada tradition, whereas Herman in making the joke about the > Buddha's mother showed that he did not have the kind of confidence in > it. Herman: Please don't tell me I know the tradition better than you. That would be a sad state affairs indeed. I state categorically, Sukin, that it IS part of the tradition that the Buddha taught Abhidhamma to his mother. If you will not accept that from me, perhaps someone Sukin has more faith in will confirm it on my behalf. Suk: It is most likely that you know what is in the tradition more than I do i.e. you have read many more texts. But this is nothing to be sad about. ;-) And I won’t ever question you about what indeed is written in those texts. But the point is that you do not accept much of what is written there, willingly rejecting them in preference to what you “know” to be true. Ken on the other hand appears to have confidence in the parts that you reject probably partly because he knows that he does not “know”. The rest I have already explained to Tep. Metta, Sukin Ps: I saw that you have written a response to my other post. I have not read that as yet and am quite behind in my reading. I don’t know when I will get a chance to respond to it. #87237 From: "Phil" Date: Thu Jun 19, 2008 5:57 pm Subject: Re: Respecting the conventional teaching. philofillet Hi Howard > -------------------------------------------- > Howard: > On the chance that you're not just kidding, the phrase is 'sammuti > vaca', meaning "conventional speech." Thanks. I wasn't kidding. I was trying to find the word "sammuti." But the way I remember it was not just about speech, but about truth. There is parammatha truth and sammuti truth, something like that. I have a good quotations/passage somewhere about how the sammuti truth is a kind of balm to help us along the way because the road to the parammattha truth is hard and will take a long, long time. Balms are needed along the way, something like that. It was talking about metta bhavana, which of course uses concepts (people) as objects is therefore related to this "samutti" truth. When I find it, I will post it. Metta, Phil #87238 From: "Phil" Date: Thu Jun 19, 2008 6:02 pm Subject: Re: gimme an "S" - Phil philofillet Hi Connies > > thanks for asking, Phil: > > http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/dic3_v.htm << vohaara-desanaa: 'conventional exposition', as distinguished from an explanation true in the highest sense (paramattha- desana). It is also called sammuti-sacca (in Sanskrit samvrti). (App.). >> Ph: Thanks. > also, have my sympathies. Ph: Also thanks. Though I don't know why you're sending them to me. Because I'm plunging into the musky groves of wrong view? Because my mother has Alzheimer's? Because I use too much porn? Because I don't use enough porn? In any case, I'll take them! :) Metta, Phil #87239 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Jun 19, 2008 6:06 pm Subject: Re: Sundries buddhatrue Hi Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Dear James, > > Thanks for the reply. I think, 'This is not a reply and this is not a > response': > > I noticed a whole bunch of things. At first, some sort of anxious, > angry, sinking feeling and then some sort of wait-and-see vibe - in > quick succession - so I read on... > > J: "I really like this post. It is real and open..." > > Scott: I'm like, 'When will the other shoe drop?' > > J: "Actually, it even made me feel somewhat sorry for you..." > > Scott: I go, 'Ahh, there it is.' And I'm like, 'James' is 'thus and > so' and always does 'thus and so'. Annoyance again and thoughts of > 'James' and the whole and accurate-seeming story of 'James' preaching > and 'James' axe-grinding and why does 'James' do this and what is > 'James' wanting. > > I go, 'Here he goes again' and I delete the message, reading it as I > was in the e-mail folder - all of it very quick. I go feed the dog > and cats. I think of James and DSG and Dhamma and Useless Contention. > There is a succession of emotions and thoughts, as usual, and no real > attending to what arises beyond the Precious Thoughts in my head while > I do the chores and I return and fire up DSG and read on... Thanks for the response/non-response. This is a very interesting "stream-of-consciousness" post. Honestly, I really do wish that my posts didn't produce such a visceral response in people, but I can't seem to avoid it. I guess I am contentious by nature. :-) (At least I am not boring. :-) My only comment would be how you chose to deal with your anger/hatred of me. Rather than examining your own mind and your own emotions, you decided to think "James doesn't exist and I don't exist so there is no reason to be angry." So, how is that working for you? Are you still ready to bash in my face or are you now calm and collected when you read this post? I am going to assume that you are still angry/irritated with me because the strategy of "James doesn't exist" isn't what the Buddha taught to combat anger. When you see a post of mine and you have the immediate visceral response of anger, then you should direct your mind to a neutral or pleasant object until the anger subsides. Then you can read my post without wanting to bash in my face and without telling yourself that I don't exist. This is what the Buddha taught. May you be well and happy. Metta, James #87240 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Thu Jun 19, 2008 6:33 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: response to hate mail etc - ... Credibility egberdina Hi Sukin, 2008/6/20 Sukinder : > Hi Herman (Ken and Tep), > > ============= > > Sukin: The point being made was that Ken only stated what was within the > > Theravada tradition, whereas Herman in making the joke about the > > Buddha's mother showed that he did not have the kind of confidence in > > it. > > Herman: > Please don't tell me I know the tradition better than you. That would > be a sad state affairs indeed. I state categorically, Sukin, that it > IS part of the tradition that the Buddha taught Abhidhamma to his > mother. If you will not accept that from me, perhaps someone Sukin has > more faith in will confirm it on my behalf. > > > But the point is that you do not accept much of what is > written there, willingly rejecting them in preference to what you "know" > to be true. Ken on the other hand appears to have confidence in the > parts that you reject probably partly because he knows that he does not > "know". The rest I have already explained to Tep. You do not hesitate to reject any number of traditions, and often publicly do so. By which conceit did "your" tradition become the superior one? > > Sukin > Ps: I saw that you have written a response to my other post. I have not > read that as yet and am quite behind in my reading. I don't know when I > will get a chance to respond to it. No need to rush on my account. Cheers Herman #87241 From: "Phil" Date: Thu Jun 19, 2008 6:49 pm Subject: Re:Phil: [dsg] Re: Overview of KS 3: Her Faulty Teaching philofillet Hi Nina (PS to all who listen to the recorded AS talks.) If you come across that talk, where Nina tells AS that there > > is someone who is concerned about committing serious transgressions, > > could you perhaps put it up on the site for a short time, or > > something like that. I would like to discuss it and maybe work out > > some of my displeasure and mistrust. You see, I believe Dhamma > > friends can be hugely influential in helping us to avoid bad > > behaviour and not just by the "just understand" approach. > -------- > N: Was it that Kh said: it had happened already by conditions, no use > to worry? If you have aversion about it, you accumulate more akusala. Ph: No, I wouldn't disagree with that. There is no use stewing in regret, it just adds to the akusala. The person you referred to was asking *how to avoid* transgression, "serious" transgression as you put it, in the future. AS made a response in the "already fallen away" vein, I think, but missed the point of the question, I think. You tried to bring her back to it by saying "I think we should avoid bad friends" or something like that, referring correctly to one of the myriad of ways in which the Buddha gives us advice that will help us to avoid transgression. And then AS rather slyly says "I'm not saying *don't* do that" or something, which was like "yes, of course, we all know that we should avoid evil friends" or "those teachings are too obvious to mention" or something like that, and continued to talk in a deep vein. This is just the point I keep trying to make. Yes, the deep approach is helpful for some, but when a troubled person asks about how to avoid transgression, there are other methods that the Buddha helped. It is not all written, it is not all about accumulations and conditions having their way, there is a lot of teaching in the suttanta that provide clear guidance to help people stop doing the things that hurt themselves and other, or at least to train the mind in ways in which it will be conditioned to do less harm. There really are, Nina, and that's what you were getting at when you tried to remind AS about avoiding evil friends, etc. I sometimes thinks she must teach differently in Thai, because I find the Perfections book much more in line with the *firm* ethical teaching of the Buddha. Do you remember there was one passage I thought Lodwijk must have put in himself when reading because it sounded so uncharacterisitc of what I'd heard of AS in English? That the way to satipatthana is long and if one doesn't rouse oneself again and again to avoid akusala one will be swept away or something like that. > Anyway we are bound to do a lot of thinking of what is past already. > This is not helpful. Better to know citta at this moment. Is it > kusala or akusala? > The "just understand approach": this is not an easy way out. It takes > courage and detachment to understand whatever arises now. Ph: Nina, I'm sorry, but I think there is just a lot of thinking about what one thinks is arising now. There are not conditions for "understanding whatever arises now." Wishful thinking. That's the way I see it now. "Just understanding" is an entirely insufficient approach to deal with gross kilesa because our (my) level of understanding is pathetically feeble, and is bolstered by lobha trying to understand too hard about deep things, and therefore just thinking with comfort about deep things. That is me, Nina. I think I'm not the only one, but cannot say for sure. I just throw it out there again and again for people to reflect on and reject with confidence if there is confidence there. Also > patience, patience if you detect a lot of akusala. You can understand > that it is conditioned by the latent tendencies, by past > accumulations. If you do not take it for my akusala, it means you > have some degree of detachment. This will help you to face difficult > situations in the future. Ph: Yes, I don understand this, and it helps to avoid the kind of painful stewing in regret. WHen I commit transgressions, I understand the forces at work, and do no add to the suffering. But doing what the Buddha encourages us to do to avoid transgression in the future (or to reduce the likelihood of it at least) is a different matter. AS answered poorly in that exchange, or perhaps you couldn't have more inisistent to bring her back to the point, which I think you understood clearly when you talked about "avoiding evil friends." Anyways, it must seem I am obsessed with one exchange I heard in a talk but it really made me doubt AS, and perhaps looking at it again would allow us to say that she misunderstood the question, or something like that. Nina, as always you've got lots on your hands. Let's drop this until Sarah is able to tell me where that talk is. No hurry whatsoever, Sarah. Several months later, a year later. WHenever you happen across that talk. Metta, Phil p.s not only Sarah, of course, anyone who happens across that talk, if you could send me a note off list as I might not see it on list. Thanks #87242 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Thu Jun 19, 2008 7:23 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XVII,270 egberdina Hi Larry and connie, 2008/6/19 : > "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga), Ch. XVII > > [(xi)-(xii) Birth, etc.] > > 270. As regards the clause 'With becoming as condition, birth', etc., > the definition of birth should be understood in the way given in the > Description of the Truths (Ch. XVI,31ff.). > > Only kamma-process becoming is intended here as 'becoming'; for it is > that, not rebirth-process becoming, which is a condition for birth. But > it is a condition in two ways, as kamma condition and as > decisive-support condition. > > 271. Here it may be asked: 'But how is it to be known that becoming is a > condition for birth?' Because of the observable difference of > inferiority and superiority. For in spite of equality of external > circumstances, such as father, mother, seed, blood, nutriment, etc., the > difference of inferiority and superiority of beings is observable even > in the case of twins. And that fact is not causeless, since it is not > present always and in all; nor has it any cause other than kamma-process > becoming since there is no other reason in the internal continuity of > beings generated by it. Of course we do not blame people from 1500 years ago for the fact that they knew nothing about genetics and the interplay with environmental factors, as conditions for the richly varied development of the human form. But we can reasonably question why people would continue to promote theories that are not based on observation, and have no predictive or explanatory value, when there are theories that are based on observation, and that do have explanatory and predictive value. In addition to these considerations is the absurd notion that inferiority / superiority, (or high / low in connie's translation) are inherent qualities of beings, and not judgments made by third parties blithely ignorant of their role. But what renders this schmience dressed up as Dhamma less relevant than anything else is that it has no bearing at all on the Path. Cheers Herman #87243 From: Sukinder Date: Thu Jun 19, 2008 7:27 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: response to hate mail etc - ... Credibility sukinderpal Hi Herman, ========== > But the point is that you do not accept much of what is > written there, willingly rejecting them in preference to what you "know" > to be true. Ken on the other hand appears to have confidence in the > parts that you reject probably partly because he knows that he does not > "know". The rest I have already explained to Tep. Herman: You do not hesitate to reject any number of traditions, and often publicly do so. By which conceit did "your" tradition become the superior one? Sukin: No “my” tradition, so no conceit here. But I understand the Dhamma to be the *only* expression of the Truth, which is the reason why I easily reject all other teachings. Metta, Sukin #87244 From: "Tep" Date: Thu Jun 19, 2008 7:39 pm Subject: Re: response to hate mail etc - revised and corrected edition dhammanusarin Dear Sukin, - I am pleased to see that now we are able to reconcile some differences better than ever. Suk: >First, I must apologize for even starting all this. It is none of my business to try to assess anyone's level of confidence and is quite arrogant. T: You were not arrogant at all. On the contrary, it was fortunate that those questions about Tep's character arose during the discussion, because they gave me an opportunity to explain my position. Once that has been done, now we can move on to have mutually-beneficial Dhamma discussions in the future. >Suk: If someone says that he does not believe in the teachings on the khandhas, conditionality, the tilakkhana, or value of the Sangha for example and instead insists on a belief in Soul and God, can't we judge straight away that his level of saddha approaches zero? And in general doesn't wrong understanding expressed by anyone, is in fact reflection of lack of saddha at that moment? T: You are clever at explaining your point via an extreme situation. Yes, it is obvious to detect zero saddha (in the Buddha's Dhamma) in one who believes in Soul or God as the supreme creator. But in a more general case, when we see a wrong understanding of the Dhamma in a person, we can only identify him/her as uninstructed puthujjana. A fool can have strong saddha in the Buddha, despite the fact that s/he is uninstructed about the Teachings. .................... T: In regard to my reply in 2.) I say it is a strong opinion because it is uncompromising and opinionated < Suk: I never even bothered to read any of the posts in that particular thread. I don't also care whether or not you are conforming to the tradition.> The rest of your post is agreeable, so I shall skip it. ..................... Suk: > Thanks. I will take this opportunity to ask you a few questions about Dhamma in another post. T: I shall be glad to have an opportunity for Dhamma discussion with you, Sukin. Regards, Tep === #87245 From: LBIDD@... Date: Thu Jun 19, 2008 7:49 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XVII,270 lbidd2 Hi Herman, Herman: "But we can reasonably question why people would continue to promote theories that are not based on observation," Larry: Faith, "word of the Buddha", etc. Dependent arising as taught by the Buddha is all about rebirth. But by all means, go ahead and observe something. Preferably, present experience. Where is the grasp of "I" right now? Larry #87246 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Thu Jun 19, 2008 8:11 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XVII,270 rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > > > In addition to these considerations is the absurd notion that > inferiority / superiority, (or high / low in connie's translation) are > inherent qualities of beings, and not judgments made by third parties > blithely ignorant of their role. > > But what renders this schmience dressed up as Dhamma less relevant > than anything else is that it has no bearing at all on the Path. > > > Herman Dear Herman I didn't follow this thread but I assume you know the suttas where the Buddha indicated the reason for inferiority and superiority (basness and excellence) of beings: e.g. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.135.than.html "Master Gotama, what is the reason, what is the cause, why baseness & excellence are seen among human beings, among the human race? For short-lived & long-lived people are to be seen, sickly & healthy, ugly & beautiful, uninfluential & influential, poor & rich, low-born & high- born, stupid & discerning people are to be seen. So what is the reason, what is the cause, why baseness & excellence are seen among human beings, among the human race?" "Students, beings are owners of kamma, heir to kamma, born of kamma, related through kamma, and have kamma as their arbitrator. Kamma is what creates distinctions among beings in terms of coarseness & refinement." "There is the case, where a woman or man is ill-tempered & easily upset; even when lightly criticized, he/she grows offended, provoked, malicious, & resentful; shows annoyance, aversion, & bitterness. Through having adopted & carried out such actions, on the break-up of the body, after death, he/she reappears in the plane of deprivation... If instead he/she comes to the human state, then he/she is ugly wherever reborn. This is the way leading to ugliness: to be ill-tempered & easily upset; even when lightly criticized, to grow offended, provoked, malicious, & resentful; to show annoyance, aversion, & bitterness.:: endquote This is standard Buddhist teaching so I was surprised you seem to disagree? Robert #87247 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jun 19, 2008 4:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Respecting the conventional teaching. upasaka_howard Hi, Phil - In a message dated 6/19/2008 8:57:57 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, philco777@... writes: Hi Howard > -------------------------------------------- > Howard: > On the chance that you're not just kidding, the phrase is 'sammuti > vaca', meaning "conventional speech." Thanks. I wasn't kidding. I was trying to find the word "sammuti." But the way I remember it was not just about speech, but about truth. There is parammatha truth and sammuti truth, something like that. --------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, there's sammuti sacca as well. But while I believe in two sorts of speech, literal and "conventional," I do not believe in two sorts of truth. For me, truth is truth. What we call "a conventional truth" is merely true conventional speech. If there is anger "in me," and I say "I am angry now," that is a conventional truth in the precise sense that, at that time, 'I am angry now' is conventional speech, and it is true. -------------------------------------------- I have a good quotations/passage somewhere about how the sammuti truth is a kind of balm to help us along the way because the road to the parammattha truth is hard and will take a long, long time. Balms are needed along the way, something like that. It was talking about metta bhavana, which of course uses concepts (people) as objects is therefore related to this "samutti" truth. When I find it, I will post it. Metta, Phil ======================== With metta, Hoard #87248 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Jun 19, 2008 8:16 pm Subject: Re: Sundries scottduncan2 Dear James, J: "...May you be well and happy." Scott: Thank you. Sincerely, Scott. #87249 From: "connie" Date: Thu Jun 19, 2008 8:42 pm Subject: Re: Error in the Vism Definition of Pari~n~na (Full Understanding)? Part III nichiconn Dear Tep, T: I am not fond of mosquitos either. It is very hard not to break the First Precept when they are feeding on this body (that is not mine). Will "not self" contemplation help better, or is pervading metta more effective? C: Where is "my metta" when the poor goblin wants to feed her children? That is my best answer. Udaana Cy: << Harmlessness (abyaapajja.m): angerlessness; in this way it is the stage previous to loving kindness that is indicated. >> .....trim........ >C: While (seldom if) ever in a position to judge (well & truly), judge, I do, and not "innocently", but with passion, prejudice, pride -- misgiving? T: That sounds like a nice poem to me. Why not just let go of the PPP altogether? [I know the "just do it" is not "that easy".] C: Yes, "Just say 'No'"! But this letting go of 'things' - impossible for this 'ME': more like "Let go, you monkey on my back"; of course, we can talk about releasing the monkey. Be glad I edited the rest of the 'poem' to oblivion! Not that it was dreadful, just too digressive and I had no itch to scratch it any further. T: Isn't it true that trainers(sekha) attain certain paths and fruitions (not yet arahant's fruition), and they still possess aasavas to some degree? C: Yes. True enough. They are still possessed, of the aasavas. T: In the Patisambhidamagga 'science' is 'vijjaa' in the supernormal power sense. Patism, XIX, 34. C: It seems a long time ago I told you I was excited to be getting a copy & yet I've barely looked in it since it came! This evening, your xix 34 sent me glancing thru the Success chapter, where (you make me smile) I read: <> After, are mentioned: success of the meritiorious, success thru the sciences & the sense of succeeding with a task right for the particular occasion. T: It thus follows that the knowledges(~nana) about the Noble Truths and about the three intervals (past, future, present) are only in the ariya puggalas who have vijjaa. True or false? C: Yes, true or false. I imagine the ariya climbing the different levels of the[storied] palace of understanding, the arahant to the pinnacle of success. The worldling's hovel may not fall into the same class but if it's seen that the roof leaks, i venture to say a climb might come under consideration. Now, I must leave you with a reminder to myself: << For what says one of our commentaries:-- "Our sovereign lord has declared salvation To be in the spirit and not in the letter. Therefore let not the wise man delight in letters and syllables, But let him fix his mind upon the sense." And again-- "To preserve the meaning all this has been said: Therefore let the wise man hold fast the meaning and make light of the letter." >> -Culla Sadda Niiti as quoted by Childers in "Khuddaka Paa.tha, a Paali Text, with a Translation and Notes." peace, connie #87250 From: "connie" Date: Thu Jun 19, 2008 9:28 pm Subject: Re: Sundries nichiconn Dear James, J: I guess I am contentious by nature. :-) (At least I am not boring. :-) C: Unfortunately, some visceral responses might indicate that this (not boring) is not true. Boredom is simply aversion, to put it mildly. I'm not sure how 'simple' anything might be. I may not deliberately hurt someone with my words yet there could still be some carelessness in my handling of them or a certain lack of or dis- regard concerning how their impact might be felt. Almost as if the recipient didn't exist, conventionally, eh. << this exalted utterance: 'Affected by pleasure and pain in the village or wilderness, you should certainly not consider it as due to oneself or another. Contacts affect one with cleaving as condition, How could contacts affect one without cleaving?' >> Udaana peace, connie #87251 From: "Phil" Date: Thu Jun 19, 2008 9:38 pm Subject: Re:Phil: [dsg] Re: Overview of KS 3: Her Faulty Teaching philofillet > Is it > > kusala or akusala? > > The "just understand approach": this is not an easy way out. It > takes > > courage and detachment to understand whatever arises now. > > Ph: Nina, I'm sorry, but I think there is just a lot of thinking > about what one thinks is arising now. There are not conditions > for "understanding whatever arises now." Wishful thinking. That's > the way I see it now. "Just understanding" is an entirely > insufficient approach to deal with gross kilesa because our (my) > level of understanding is pathetically feeble, and is bolstered by > lobha trying to understand too hard about deep things, and therefore > just thinking with comfort about deep things. That is me, Nina. I > think I'm not the only one, but cannot say for sure. I just throw it > out there again and again for people to reflect on and reject with > confidence if there is confidence there. Ph: An example has come up. Today I am tired and stressed-out because of the terrible workload I have at my job (where there is trouble with the union I'm in, and some students, and various things) and the way it is tiring me out and interfering with my writing. So I reflect on the eight worldly conditions, loss and gain, pleasure and pain, praise and gain, fame and disrepute and so on and I reflect on how this feeling of tiredness, of stress, they are just conditioned phenomena arising, and yes, this conditions some nice thinking about detachment and it conditions a sense of calm, relatively, and I am happier. But this is not really understanding, it is clinging to the teaching in a way to give me peace of mine, emotional comfort, a balm. We all need balms on the way. It's not really understanding, because there is no understanding of the arisen dhammas, not reallly, it is just comforting thinking. Which is fine. But does everyone understand the way this goes on? When we say "Abhidhamma is not in the book", do we really understand the ways in which lobha and self-interest are, natrually enough, using Ahidhamma for emotional comfort? Or do we think we are following some sort of true, deep path that the misguided meditators who think they control dhammas are deprived of? Do we see how we are trying to control dhammas when we reflect in the way I did above, seeking comfort through reflection in daily life? Something like that. Metta, Phil #87252 From: "connie" Date: Thu Jun 19, 2008 10:09 pm Subject: Re: gimme an "S" nichiconn Dear Phil, > also, have my sympathies. Ph: Also thanks. Though I don't know why you're sending them to me. Because I'm plunging into the musky groves of wrong view? Because my mother has Alzheimer's? Because I use too much porn? Because I don't use enough porn? In any case, I'll take them! :) C: O jeez, don't remind me of you and James in your underwears again! Maybe not exactly yours, but Difficulties, I can identify with that/you & Sympathy was the quickest S word to pop up for that 'empathy or something'. Actually, it was to do with your frustration over 'the KS method' not - uhm - meeting your expectations. peace, connie #87253 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Thu Jun 19, 2008 10:40 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: response to hate mail etc - ... Credibility egberdina Hi Sukin, 2008/6/20 Sukinder : > Hi Herman, > > > > Herman: > You do not hesitate to reject any number of traditions, and often > publicly do so. By which conceit did "your" tradition become the > superior one? > > Sukin: No "my" tradition, so no conceit here. But I understand the > Dhamma to be the *only* expression of the Truth, which is the reason why > I easily reject all other teachings. > Is it possible that you actually mean that you believe this, rather than understand it? Cheers Herman #87254 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Thu Jun 19, 2008 10:49 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XVII,270 egberdina Hi Larry, 2008/6/20 : > Hi Herman, > > Herman: "But we can reasonably question why people would continue to > promote theories that are not based on observation," > > Larry: Faith, "word of the Buddha", etc. Dependent arising as taught by > the Buddha is all about rebirth. But by all means, go ahead and observe > something. Preferably, present experience. Where is the grasp of "I" > right now? > I wonder if you believe that relationships between dhammas are realities, and if you do, how they could possibly come to be known by observing only the present dhamma? Cheers Herman #87255 From: "Antony Woods" Date: Thu Jun 19, 2008 10:51 pm Subject: Re: Views re self & the world DN29 antony272b2 Hi Sarah, all, I was on a long walk this morning when a siren came near the Fire Station. I remembered my dana to the Rural Fire Service, then noticed it was a police car. While I was enjoying my internal dialogue, a dog gave me a blast which made me jump! LOL Joseph Goldstein wrote in "Insight Meditation": "I have seen the most strict and demanding Asian teachers almost lose control laughing at a particular joke that does not seem funny at all from the Western point of view. Once (a Burmese Sayadaw) was giving a Dhamma talk in the traditional fashion, holding a ceremonial fan in front of him. He was talking about mind and matter, and one of the yogis asked whether a dog has both. The Sayadaw could hardly stop laughing. He thought that was the funniest question as he reflected on what the alternative might be." S: I know you have a lot of confidence in the value of the brahma-viharas. Antony: Yes I have a whole Yahoo Group with 3,000 posts dedicated to the topic. But lately I've found that, as a layperson, dana (170 posts) is most effective for overcoming defilements (my latest affordable scheme is to donate 1 cent to the hospital every time something happens and I get anxious that I have hurt myself. I'm up to $2.32 already!) From AN 7.49 Dana Sutta: " — but with the thought, 'This is an ornament for the mind, a support for the mind' — on the break-up of the body, after death, he reappears in the company of Brahma's Retinue. Then, having exhausted that action, that power, that status, that sovereignty, he is a non-returner. He does not come back to this world. "This, Sariputta, is the cause, this is the reason, why a person gives a gift of a certain sort and it does not bear great fruit or great benefit, whereas another person gives a gift of the same sort and it bears great fruit and great benefit." Translator's note: This discourse discusses the motivations one might have for being generous, and rates in ascending order the results that different motivations can lead to. The Commentary notes that the highest motivation, untainted by lower motivations and leading to non-returning, requires a certain level of mastery in concentration and insight in order to be one's genuine motivation for giving. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an07/an07.049.than.html With dhammadana / Antony. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Antony & all, > > --- On Thu, 12/6/08, Antony Woods wrote: > A:> Regarding emergency sirens (which in recent weeks have happily helped > me remember my dana to the Rural Fire Service which was in order to > practice as if my head is on fire) I have some more thoughts to share: > > >When there is a tragedy, usually on the TV but even if it is hearing > the siren when outdoors, people often think that they are being > compassionate by watching it, when often the most compassionate thing > you can do is to turn off the TV or note the siren as hearing so as to > return to the work at hand. > > >Great topic! > .... > S: I agree it's a good topic to discuss further. > > The point we were discussing when we met was how easily we hear a sound and are immediately lost in a world of stories and ideas, conjuring up all sorts of images and forgetting all about the understanding of realities now. > > Of course, there was no suggestion that we shouldn't move out of the way of emergency vehicles or not assist those in distress if we have the opportunity! However, thinking and thinking about the visible objects or sounds, imagining various gruesome scenarios, is not metta or compassion. > > Metta and compassion involve the friendliness and care when we are with people or when we have the chance to assist. > > I know you have a lot of confidence in the value of the bhrama-viharas. My comment at the time was also a reminder of the greatest kusala, the insight into the true nature of realities as impermanent, dukkha and anatta. This can only come about through understanding these realities, such as sound or visible object, when they appear at the present moment. > > I was just reminded of the Velama Sutta, and this is taken from an earlier message of mine (#69833) and a discussion on daana: > > >>S:.... Velama Sutta where it says (PTS transl.): > > "For, though brahman Velama gave that very rich gift, greater would have > been the fruit thereof, had he fed one person of right view > (di.t.thisampanna"m. Comy.: 'dassanasampanna"m sotaapanna"m) > > Lily de Silva's summary ... continues: > > "It is more meritorious to feed one once-returner than a hundred stream > enterers. Next in order come non-returners, arahants, Paccekabuddhas and > Sammasambuddhas. Feeding the Buddha and the Sangha is more meritorious > than feeding the Buddha alone. > > It is even more meritorious to construct a monastery for the general use > of the Sangha of the four quarters of all times. Taking refuge in the > Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha is better still. > > Abiding by the Five Precepts is even more valuable. > > But better still is the cultivation of metta, loving-kindness, and best of > all, the insight into impermanence, which leads to Nibbana."<< > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======= > #87256 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Thu Jun 19, 2008 11:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Corner (184) egberdina Hi connie, 2008/6/19 connie : > That's > quite a rollercoaster ride of SHOULDing and no-SHOULDing you've taken > me on, connie. Should I infer something from this, that perhaps you > are not sure about the matter? > > > Dear Herman, > If you do infer anything and want to call it should, ok. > Everything is as it should be - all according to conditions. I agree that what you say applies as you say it applies, only to everything. Forgive me for being subtle :-), but have you ever noticed that our attention is always on something, not on everything? An appeal to conditionality in relation to a specific something is meaningless, unless it explains that specific something. There is no insight or understanding in making general statements about particulars, only the possibility that someone will be fooled. Cheers Herman #87257 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Thu Jun 19, 2008 11:21 pm Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Perfections Corner (184) egberdina Hi connie, 2008/6/19 connie : > > As it pertains to enlightenment, would your view therefore be that it > will either happen quite easily, but more likely not at all, and this > is simply how it is, the luck (conditions) of the draw? Action can > play no role? Which leads me to the question, can someone be > enlightened against their will, or chance upon nibbana? > > > Dear Herman, > All according to conditions. Have you ever come across this line? "There is no insight or understanding in making general statements about particulars, only the possibility that someone will be fooled ." :-) Cheers Herman #87258 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jun 20, 2008 1:02 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] What is thinking? nilovg Hi Howard, Op 19-jun-2008, om 14:32 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > To say that it is citta that thinks (or cittas that think) is to > imagine > little discourse agents/thinkers, little selves, that act. And this > is not > so. There are instances of thinking, and that's all - mere mental; > activities > that occur. But not entities that think. To speak of entities that > think is > to enunciate an atta-view, IMO. > -------------------------------------------------- > N: Do not worry Howard. Citta thinks, but we need more details to > have the right understanding of citta, citta as not being an actor > or entity. --------- > N: Seeing experiences visible object and seeing and visible object are > realities. > ------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Seeing is not some "thing" that experiences visible objects. See IS > the > experiencing of visible objects. Any instance of seeing is a mental > activity. > It is an event that occurs, not an agent that acts.... > And also in the ultimate sense, there are no citta-things. There is > just > knowing (of object). -------- N: I do not explain all details about citta right in the beginning, but it is necessary to go into details lest we have misunderstandings as you indicate. Citta does not last, not even for a splitsecond, it has no time to act at all. We need to remember not only that citta is non-self, but also that it arises and passes in a flash. Moreover, we have to remember that it arises because of a concurrence of conditions. It seems that seeing and hearing are present at the same time, but this is not possible, since seeing experiences visible object and hearing experiences sound, and it is not possible to experience more than one object at a time. Seeing arises and experiences visible object, because eyesense, a rupa, has not fallen away yet, and visible object has not fallen away yet. There is a concurrence of several conditions. Seeing arises in a process of cittas and all of them experience visible object, and the same with hearing. Breathe in, and before breathing out innumerable cittas have arisen and fallen away, without our noticing it. Come to think of it, it makes you dizzy. The "Expositor"(p. 81) refers to a sutta text , Ang. I, 10: "Bhikkhus, it is no easy matter to illustrate the quickness of thoughts in their changing". The Expositor explains the arising of kusala citta with pa~n~naa as follows: Cittas are arising and falling away faster than a flash of lightning. This will cure us from the idea that citta is an actor or agent. When awareness arises of seeing, we do not have to name it citta that sees, or an experiencing , no names at all, just charactreistics can be directly known. However, for an explanation in the beginning we can speak of citta that sees, hears, etc. We have to explain that there are different cittas and that citta is the chief in knowing an object. It is like a King, and the accompanying cetasikas are the retinue of the King. Nina. #87259 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jun 20, 2008 1:15 am Subject: Visuddhimagga, Ch XVII, 270, 271 and Tiika. nilovg Visuddhimagga, Ch XVII, 270, 271 Intro: The following sections deal with the link: becoming conditions birth. Becoming means here kamma-process becoming, not rebirth- process becoming. It is explained that it can be known that kamma is the cause of birth because of the difference in beings: their being beautiful or ugly, inferior or superior. --------- Text Vis. 270: As regards the clause 'With becoming as condition, birth', etc. the definition of birth should be understood in the way given in the Description of the Truths (Ch. XVI,31ff.). ---------- N: As to the word etc. (aadi), the Tiika refers to different sutta texts where it is explained that conditioned by birth, old age, death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair come into being. The Tiika refers to the Atthasaalinii where it explains the text of the Dhammasanga.ni , 641 and 642, about the initial arising of ruupa at the moment of rebirth and the continued development of ruupa. We read about the continuous development of ruupa: --------- Text Vis. : Only kamma-process becoming is intended here as 'becoming'; for it is that, not rebirth-process becoming, which is a condition for birth. But it is a condition in two ways, as kamma condition and as decisive- support condition. ****** Text Vis. 271: Here it may be asked: 'But how is it to be known that becoming is a condition for birth?' Because of the observable difference of inferiority and superiority. For in spite of equality of external circumstances, such as father, mother, seed, blood, nutriment, etc., the difference of inferiority and superiority of beings is observable even in the case of twins. --------- N: The Tiika elaborates on inferiority and superiority, stating that inferiority is what is undesirable, that superiority is what is desirable. The Tiika refers to the difference in beings as to being beautiful and ugly, despisable and superior. This is so even in twins who look similar. ---------- Text Vis.: And that fact is not causeless, since it is not present always and in all; nor has it any cause other than kamma-process becoming since there is no other reason in the internal continuity of beings generated by it. Consequently, it has only kamma-process becoming for its cause. And because kamma is the cause of the difference of inferiority and superiority among beings the Blessed One said, 'It is kamma that separates beings according to inferiority and superiority' (M.iii, 203). From that it can be known that becoming is a condition for birth. --------- Conclusion: Nobody can choose his birth, it is due to kamma whether one has a happy rebirth or an unhappy rebirth, whether one is inferior or superior. Kamma-process becoming leads to birth, and as the Buddha said, birth leads to old age, death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair. Here we are reminded of the danger and disadvantage of being in the cycle of birth and death. Naama and ruupa arise at birth because of ignorance and clinging and also now they arise because we are in the cycle. Understanding of the naama and ruupa that arise now will lead to the end of the cycle. ****** Nina. #87260 From: "szmicio" Date: Fri Jun 20, 2008 2:16 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] What is thinking? szmicio >N:When awareness arises of seeing, we do not have to name it citta that > sees, or an experiencing , no names at all, just characteristics can > be directly known. L: but there is craving to feel or to see something special. Is it just mental activity? If we do not see visible object,but just only confusion at that moment? P.s Is Ajahn Sujin and Khun Sujin the same person? I've started listening audio recordings with Ajahn Sujin it's really great :> #87261 From: "szmicio" Date: Fri Jun 20, 2008 2:27 am Subject: akusala cetasika - thina szmicio What is thina? Is it laziness, lack of energy to do something? What is the real characteristic of thina? How the characteristic of thina can be known? I have so much of laziness in daily life. I have so many regrets and thinking of it. So many thinking that I am worst than others , becouse I am so lazy. bye Lukas #87262 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Jun 20, 2008 2:33 am Subject: Re: Sundries buddhatrue Hi Connie, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > > Dear James, > I may not deliberately hurt someone with my words yet there could still be some carelessness in my handling of them or a certain lack of or dis- regard concerning how their impact might be felt. Almost as if the recipient didn't exist, conventionally, eh. > It could also be that some people are just far too sensitive (as I stated before). All I did was write about the history of Theravada and Mahayana and Scott had the visceral reaction of extreme anger. What's the deal?? There is no way I could forsee a reaction like that! And now you seem to think that I am to blame because I am too careless with my words. Good lord! I think you are over-reacting also. The problem is that some members take this group far too seriously. Participation in this group isn't the entirety of your Dhamma practice! I approach this group in a very casual manner. Actually, I usually just read the posts and post when I am bored and have nothing else to do. If I find myself spending too much time posting I have to tell myself to back off and get a life. Believe it or not, this group and what is posted in this group are not that important in the grand scheme of things. So, it is really ridiculous to get so worked up about what is posted. Metta, James #87263 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jun 20, 2008 2:35 am Subject: Metta, Ch 8, no 5. nilovg Dear friends, Who can remember his former lives and the deeds he performed during those lives? Who can remember to which being he caused trouble and suffering in past lives? If someone, for example, has killed another person and then extends merit to him how could this prevent the killing which is akusala kamma from producing result? One should know who the owner is of the kammas which have been performed during the cycle of birth and death. Akusala kamma such as killing can cause rebirth in a hell plane. Or if one is born in the human plane akusala kamma can cause one to be sick or to suffer misfortune. Kusala kamma can cause rebirth in a happy plane, such as rebirth as a human being, or as a deva in one of the heavenly planes. Rebirth is in accordance with the kamma one performed oneself. If there is an unhappy rebirth it is not due to any revenge of another being. There is no one who could rule over someone’s destiny. If people believe in a person who could retaliate, how is their relationship to such a person? If they think that there is a person who could take revenge then they themselves could also be someone who takes revenge on another person. However, when someone has no ill feeling towards others could he take revenge and cause someone else’s misfortune? We may remember ill deeds in this life which we have committed to someone else and ill deeds which others have committed to us, but we do not remember the deeds which were committed in past lives. We would not be able to remember to whom we did wrong ourselves, nor would others be able to remember such things. Thus the belief in someone who could take revenge for the wrongs a person formerly did to him and who could cause his misfortune in this life is without foundation. The transfer of merit to such a person is also useless, it does not have any effect. Every being has performed many kammas during countless aeons in the past. People are born and they must die, they are born again and must die again, and thus they are now no longer the same person they were in the past. We should not think of a person in the past who could take revenge, but instead we should remember that in this life one should have no anger, no revengeful feeling, no wish to harm or hurt anyone. People may have aversion or anger or they may even want to hurt someone else when they think that he in this life or in a former life caused them misfortune or suffering. However, one should subdue one’s anger and feelings of revenge and not commit any deed motivated by anger. Instead, one should develop mettå and make it increase. ******* Nina. #87264 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Fri Jun 20, 2008 4:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XVII,270 egberdina Hi Robert, 2008/6/20 rjkjp1 : > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" > wrote: >> > "There is the case, where a woman or man is ill-tempered & easily > upset; even when lightly criticized, he/she grows offended, provoked, > malicious, & resentful; shows annoyance, aversion, & bitterness. > Through having adopted & carried out such actions, on the break-up of > the body, after death, he/she reappears in the plane of deprivation... If > instead he/she comes to the human state, then he/she is ugly wherever > reborn. This is the way leading to ugliness: to be ill-tempered & easily > upset; even when lightly criticized, to grow offended, provoked, > malicious, & resentful; to show annoyance, aversion, & bitterness.:: > endquote > > This is standard Buddhist teaching so I was surprised you seem to > disagree? I thought that anatta was THE standard Buddhist teaching. What could it possibly mean for there to be another standard Buddhist teaching that holds that a he/she is reborn? Are atta and anatta both standard teachings of Buddhism? Oh, and BTW, in Theravada beauty as well as ugliness are in the eye of the beholder. It is well known that Buddhagosa in the Dispeller of Delusions determines that desirable and undesirable are whatever landowners, merchants, government officials etc think them to be. The upshot of this is that a person who is (re)born into a society where the middle class hold them to be ugly, is ugly. It seems bleedingly obvious that judging a person to be of any quality whatsoever is kamma, an act, and therefore being ugly is not one's own kamma, but the kamma of others. Ahhhh, how inscrutable is the way of the elders. Cheers Herman #87265 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Jun 20, 2008 5:16 am Subject: Re: Sundries scottduncan2 Dear James, My last reply to you went from a draft that was a clarification of what you imagined my 'practise' was, to a final and very brief thank you for an expression of metta. I can see that this was not sufficient for you. Rather than contend I left off, but this was not what you needed, I think. Here's what I think needs a response: J: "... Honestly, I really do wish that my posts didn't produce such a visceral response in people, but I can't seem to avoid it." Scott: I read and left aside this imbedded and poignant statement, and I should have addressed it. And then the way the ordinary and momentary annoyance I felt and described, in a sort of 'Dhamma in daily life' montage, becomes, for you: J: "...your anger/hatred of me...Are you still ready to bash in my face...I am going to assume that you are still angry/irritated with me...Then you can read my post without wanting to bash in my face and without telling yourself that I don't exist..." Scott: And then again, in a post to connie, I see something still persists: J: "...Scott had the visceral reaction of extreme anger. What's the deal??..." Scott: I have an idea regarding what this is about for you - how someone's anger at you, no matter how minor, conditions a Festering - but metta prevents its public exposition. I'm sorry to have used anger at you as an example of a process of everyday Dhamma. I'll not reply further, last word to you. Sincerely, Scott. #87266 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jun 20, 2008 1:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XVII,270 upasaka_howard Hi, Herman (and Robert) - In a message dated 6/20/2008 7:55:28 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, hhofmeister@... writes: Hi Robert, 2008/6/20 rjkjp1 : > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" > wrote: >> > "There is the case, where a woman or man is ill-tempered & easily > upset; even when lightly criticized, he/she grows offended, provoked, > malicious, & resentful; shows annoyance, aversion, & bitterness. > Through having adopted & carried out such actions, on the break-up of > the body, after death, he/she reappears in the plane of deprivation... If > instead he/she comes to the human state, then he/she is ugly wherever > reborn. This is the way leading to ugliness: to be ill-tempered & easily > upset; even when lightly criticized, to grow offended, provoked, > malicious, & resentful; to show annoyance, aversion, & bitterness.:: > endquote > > This is standard Buddhist teaching so I was surprised you seem to > disagree? I thought that anatta was THE standard Buddhist teaching. What could it possibly mean for there to be another standard Buddhist teaching that holds that a he/she is reborn? Are atta and anatta both standard teachings of Buddhism? -------------------------------------------------- Howard: There are many elements to the Dhamma, and rebirth is one of them. There is no rule that it or any other Dhamma teaching must be accepted by everyone, but this certainly was taught by the Buddha. I do NOT see rebirth as requiring atta-view, but that is because of my phenomenalist perspective. If I, like you, considered external matter to be a fact and mentality to be a mere epi-phenomenon, then I could not accept rebirth, because discovering required physical "mechanics" for rebirth would seem most unlikely to me. But for me, with my phenomenalist/experientialist perspective, I see rebirth as nothing more than an instantaneous "channel change," with the instant of death being different from other moments of experience only in the radical change in realm/mode of experience. -------------------------------------------------- Oh, and BTW, in Theravada beauty as well as ugliness are in the eye of the beholder. It is well known that Buddhagosa in the Dispeller of Delusions determines that desirable and undesirable are whatever landowners, merchants, government officials etc think them to be. The upshot of this is that a person who is (re)born into a society where the middle class hold them to be ugly, is ugly. It seems bleedingly obvious that judging a person to be of any quality whatsoever is kamma, an act, and therefore being ugly is not one's own kamma, but the kamma of others. Ahhhh, how inscrutable is the way of the elders. Cheers Herman =========================== With metta, Howard #87267 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Jun 20, 2008 5:52 am Subject: Re: Sundries buddhatrue Hi Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Scott: I have an idea regarding what this is about for you - how > someone's anger at you, no matter how minor, conditions a Festering - > but metta prevents its public exposition. > > I'm sorry to have used anger at you as an example of a process of > everyday Dhamma. I'll not reply further, last word to you. This is just a misunderstanding. I was not bothered by your reaction of anger toward me (hey, we all have anger at times), and I was not bothered by you expressing it in the post (I very much appreciate honesty), and I am not festering any animosity toward you. Of course, I don't think I deserve the anger, but que sera sera. What bothered me is Connie suggesting I was responsible for your anger due to careless words. I was just explaining to her that there was no way I could have forseen your anger. So, my post to her had nothing to do with you. So, let's not start making a mountain out of a mole hill. Metta, James #87269 From: "Tep" Date: Fri Jun 20, 2008 6:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XVII,270 dhammanusarin Hi Herman (Howard, Robert K), - Same old argument, isn't? A simple and right answer is given below. ............... > >Herman: I thought that anatta was THE standard Buddhist teaching. What could it possibly mean for there to be another standard Buddhist teaching that holds that a he/she is reborn? Are atta and anatta both standard teachings of Buddhism? -------------------------------------------------- >Howard: There are many elements to the Dhamma, and rebirth is one of them. There is no rule that it or any other Dhamma teaching must be accepted by everyone, but this certainly was taught by the Buddha. I do NOT see rebirth as requiring atta-view, but that is because of my phenomenalist perspective. If I, like you, considered external matter to be a fact and mentality to be a mere epi-phenomenon, then I could not accept rebirth, because discovering required physical "mechanics" for rebirth would seem most unlikely to me. But for me, with my phenomenalist/experientialist perspective, I see rebirth as nothing more than an instantaneous "channel change," with the instant of death being different from other moments of experience only in the radical change in realm/mode of experience. -------------------------------------------------- T: What is reborn is not an atta, according to the Buddha. The ignorance, volitional formations, rebirth-linking citta and becoming are all anatta. Listen Herman. Not only atta, anatta, volitional formations, kamma and rebirth are standard teachings of the Lord Buddha, but also are the Four Noble Truths and Dependent Origination. Tep === #87270 From: "Tep" Date: Fri Jun 20, 2008 6:11 am Subject: Re: Sundries .. Mole hill .. dhammanusarin Hi James (Scott,Connie), - > James : > So, let's not start making a mountain out of a mole hill. > > It seems to me you are trying to make the mountain look like a mole hill. :-) Tep === #87271 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jun 20, 2008 6:35 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] What is thinking? nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 20-jun-2008, om 11:16 heeft szmicio het volgende geschreven: > N:When awareness arises of seeing, we do not have to name it citta > that > > sees, or an experiencing , no names at all, just characteristics can > > be directly known. > > L: but there is craving to feel or to see something special. > Is it just mental activity? -------- N: It is lobha cetasika arising with akusala citta. But we all like to see special things, like football (soccer). We crave for sights, sounds, etc. But we should remember that seeing only sees colour, and after seeing we think of different concepts, such as the Polish and Turkish football players. We could not notice these if there were not seeing of colour. -------- > > L: If we do not see visible object,but just only confusion at that > moment? ------ N: Seeing can only see visible object, and afterwards confusion may arise with the akusala citta. Seeing is merely vipaakacitta, result of former kamma. -------- > L: Is Ajahn Sujin and Khun Sujin the same person? ------- N: Yes. Ajahn is teacher, and people use it out of respect. BUt she keeps on stressing that everybody should develop his own understanding. Thus, it is true what Scott says: Dhamma is our teacher. ------ > L: I've started listening audio recordings with Ajahn Sujin it's > really > great -------- N: I am glad. Jonothan always takes so much trouble to have the microphone ready and then Sarah and Jon edit it. A lot of work. ------- L: What is thina? Is it laziness, lack of energy to do something? What is the real characteristic of thina? How the characteristic of thina can be known? -------- N: I wrote in Cetasikas: Thina and middha are two akusala cetasikas which always arise together, they form a pair. Thina can be translated as sloth or stolidity and middha as torpor or languor. When there are sloth and torpor one has no energy for kusala. In order to have more understanding of sloth and torpor we should study their characteristics, functions, manifestations and their proximate cause, and we should know which types of citta they car accompany. ..... when there are sloth and torpor there is no wieldiness of mind which is necessary for the performing of kusala. Instead there are mental stiffness and rigidity, mental sickness and laziness. ....When there are sloth and torpor there is no energy, no vigour to perform dana, to observe sila, to listen to Dhamma, to study the Dhamma r to develop calm, no energy to be mindful of the reality which appears now. This does not mean that whenever there is lack of mindfulness sloth and torpor arise. As we will see, they do not arise with all types of akusala citta. As regards torpor, its characteristic is unwieldiness and its function is closing the doors of consciousness. It obstructs the performing of kusala, it "oppresses..., it injures by means of unwieldiness", the Atthasalini (378) explains. The manifestation of sloth is "sinking of associated states", it causes the citta and cetasikas it accompanies to decline. The manifestation of torpor is "shrinking in taking the object" or drowsiness. The Dhammasangani (1157) calls torpor (middha) "drowsiness, sleep, slumbering, somnolence". The Atthasalini (378) adds to drowsiness: "Drowsiness makes blinking of the eyelashes, etc." The arahat has eradicated sloth and torpor. He can still have bodily tiredness and he may sleep, but he has no sloth and torpor (1 Atthasalini II, Book II, Pall II, Chapter II, 378.) . We may be inclined to think that sloth and torpor arise only when there is sleepiness, but when we study the types of citta which can be accompanied by sloth and torpor we will see that there can be many moments of them, also when we do not feel sleepy. As we have seen, the proximate cause of sloth and torpor is "unsystematic thought, in not arousing oneself from discontent and laziness". When there are sloth and torpor there is "unsystematic thought", that is, unwise attention (ayoniso manasikara) to the object which is experienced. At such moments we do not realize that life is short and that it is urgent to develop all kinds of kusala and in particular fight understanding of realities. We all have moments that there is no energy to read the scriptures or to consider the Dhamma. We may be overcome by boredom, we are not interested to study and to consider the Dhamma, or we make ourselves believe that we are too busy. Sometimes, however, we may realize that even the reading of a few lines of the scriptures can be most beneficial, that it can remind us to be aware of realities which appear. We should remember that when there are sloth and torpor we are not merely standing still as to the development of kusala, but we are "sinking", we are going "downhill", since there is opportunity for the accumulation of more akusala. If we realize that the opportunity to develop right understanding of the present moment is only at the, present moment, not at some moment in the future, there can be conditions for mindfulness and then there is 'wire attention" instead of" unwise attention". Sloth and torpor can arise only with akusala cittas which are "prompted", sasankharika. Some types of cittas are "unprompted" or not induced (asankharika) and some types are "prompted", instigated or induced. The inducement can be done by someone else or by oneself. The cittas which are prompted are, according to the Visuddhimagga (XIV, 91j "sluggish and urged on". Thus, sloth and torpor which are lazy and sluggish with regard to the performing of kusala arise only with the akusala cittas which are prompted .... This does not mean that they arise every time the akusala citta is "prompted";.... --------- L: I have so much of laziness in daily life. I have so many regrets and thinking of it. So many thinking that I am worst than others , becouse I am so lazy. ------ N: If we compare ourselves with others, being worse than others, there is conceit and it accompanies citta rooted in attachment. All this kind of thinking falls away, it is already past. There is now the present moment to attend to. NIna. #87272 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Fri Jun 20, 2008 6:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] What is the Abhidhamma ? egberdina Hi colette, 2008/6/19 colette : > "My firends are gonna be there too" > AC/DC It's a long way to the top if you want to rock 'n roll (which the commentators render as It's a long way to the shop if you want a sausage roll) > > colette: THERE IS NO TRICK TO THIS! I simply have lived without > anything that I can call my own since 1978. Where is there a trick? > If you actually have nothing, then how can you possibly be mislead > into believing that you actually have anything? AND THAT INCLUDES A > SELF! Jesus, a Jewish Buddhist, said that for those who have nothing, even that will be taken away from them. Be well Herman #87273 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Jun 20, 2008 7:50 am Subject: Re: Sundries .. Mole hill .. buddhatrue Hi Tep, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep" wrote: > > Hi James (Scott,Connie), - > > > James : > > So, let's not start making a mountain out of a mole hill. > > > > > > It seems to me you are trying to make the mountain look like a mole > hill. :-) Here is an article for you :-) : http://news.yahoo.com/s/livescience/20080620/sc_livescience/sarcasmse enasevolutionarysurvivalskill Metta, James #87274 From: "Phil" Date: Fri Jun 20, 2008 8:10 am Subject: Re: gimme an "S" philofillet Hi Connie > C: O jeez, don't remind me of you and James in your underwears again! Ph: Connie! How did you know about that? Have you been using some kind of oregon shroom magic to see into my mind!!!!???? > Maybe not exactly yours, but Difficulties, I can identify with that/you & Sympathy was the quickest S word to pop up for that 'empathy or something'. Actually, it was to do with your frustration over 'the KS method' not - uhm - meeting your expectations. Ph: Yes, you're exactly right. It's all about my expectations, trying to forge an approach to Dhamma that is just like I want. Which is silly, of course...but having that kind of expecation is at least a sign of interest in the Dhamma which is always good. You know, all the bickering and cross talk that goes on here. Wouldn't be going on if the people weren't keen on Dhamma. Anyways, thanks for the sympathy... Metta, Phil #87275 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jun 20, 2008 8:12 am Subject: Re:Phil: [dsg] Re: Overview of KS 3: Her Faulty Teaching sarahprocter... Hi Phil, --- On Fri, 20/6/08, Phil wrote: p.s not only Sarah, of course, anyone who happens across that talk, .... S: It's on 'India, o4' in Gangtok, Sikkhim. Not time to find it now, but it's on the second day as I recall as I remember we were sitting around by the fire inside. So go to www.dhammastudygroup.org and listen between Gangtok2 -01-04. That's only 4 20 mins segments, Phil:-) If I have a chance to listen and find it before you do, I'll let you know. Travelling to another smaller mountain place tomorrow and it'll be difficult to find internet access, but we'll see. Keep in mind the further comments I gave recently after pursuing your point/dismay about the 'it's gone' comments in a later discussion with KS. Basically, it all comes back to the citta now - kusala or akusala? S: 1) What about the slight akusala (unwholesomeness) now? Didn't the Buddha teachus to understand even the most subtle kilesa (defilements)? Isn't it this slight akusala which grows and becomes the gross akusala? Hence the urgency of being aware of kilesa even now. 2) With regard to Rahula and the reflecting before, during and after, it refers of course to reflecting with understanding. Not just thinking about what happened with sorrow and tears, but reflecting wisely so that such transgressions don't occur again. Metta, Sarah ========= #87276 From: "Phil" Date: Fri Jun 20, 2008 8:35 am Subject: Re:Phil: [dsg] Re: Overview of KS 3: Her Faulty Teaching philofillet Hi Sarah > .... > S: It's on 'India, o4' in Gangtok, Sikkhim. Not time to find it now, but it's on the second day as I recall as I remember we were sitting around by the fire inside. So go to www.dhammastudygroup.org and listen between Gangtok2 -01-04. That's only 4 20 mins segments, Phil:-) Ph: Thanks Sarah. I've been a bit tiresome on that point, so I'll give everyone a breather before I take it up again. discussion with KS. Basically, it all comes back to the citta now - kusala or akusala? Ph: Who knows? I certainly don't know if the "citta now" is kusala or akusala. > S: 1) What about the slight akusala (unwholesomeness) now? Didn't the Buddha teachus to understand even the most subtle kilesa (defilements)? Isn't it this slight akusala which grows and becomes the gross akusala? Hence the urgency of being aware of kilesa even now. PH: Yes, that's good. I like hearing of urgency about kilesa. > > 2) With regard to Rahula and the reflecting before, during and after, it refers of course to reflecting with understanding. Not just thinking about what happened with sorrow and tears, but reflecting wisely so that such > transgressions don't occur again. Ph: Right. I'm glad to read that. Once when I mentionned this sutta, someone asked me what would the point be of this sort of reflection. Obviously there is a very important point to it. Thanks for mentionning it. I will reflect on it as I iron my clothes for tomorrow. The sutta is even more useful for me in the "before" and "during" aspects. It has stopped me in my unwholesome tracks on many occasion this year. (And not appeared on the scene in many others!) Metta, Phil #87277 From: Dieter Möller Date: Fri Jun 20, 2008 8:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sundries moellerdieter Hi Connie, you wrote: Yes, the simile of the treasurer and the assets of the Majestic Mind is beautiful. Thank you for repeating it. You said you were curious to read more, and I think you meant of the Introductory Discourse in the Expositor, so I'll copy the section I quoted from for you below.' D: thanks Connie.. actually I suppose (d ) your message is a start of a new series in which you will elaborate your thoughts about well and badly aquired study respectively practise..(?) Sorry I didn't read previous mail about the topic.. with Metta Dieter #87278 From: "Tep" Date: Fri Jun 20, 2008 9:09 am Subject: Re: Sundries .. Mole hill .. dhammanusarin Hi James, - I only have a vague clue about what message you tried to send me. ;-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep" wrote: > > > > Hi James (Scott,Connie), - > > > > > James : > > > So, let's not start making a mountain out of a mole hill. > > > > > > > > > > It seems to me you are trying to make the mountain look like a > mole > > hill. :-) > > > Here is an article for you :-) : > http://news.yahoo.com/s/livescience/20080620/sc_livescience/sarcasmse > enasevolutionarysurvivalskill > > Metta, > James > ================================ The article is about sarcasm -- a good kind and a bad kind. The author sarcastically wrote : "Thanks goodness, because life without sarcasm would be a dull and way too nice place to be, if you ask me." In your humble opinion, is there truth in any kind of sarcasm ? Tep === #87279 From: Dieter Möller Date: Fri Jun 20, 2008 9:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Blind and the Cripple /Lame moellerdieter Hi Howard ( Jon), you wrote: ( D: (Jon : Dhammas may also be classified as citta, cetasika, rupa and nibbana) it is said that all dhammas are impermanent, isn't it ? Hence how can nibbana be classified under dhammas?? =========================== Not all dhammas are said to be impermanent. Only the conditioned dhammas, the sankhata dhammas (or sankhara) are said to be. D: you are right , Howard.. on the other hand as the conditioned dhammas , our ' All' , are/is impermanent, does it make sense to say /respectively is it said so : nibbana (something totally different) - is the unconditioned dhamma? I may be a bit dense here too.. with Metta Dieter #87280 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jun 20, 2008 5:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Blind and the Cripple /Lame upasaka_howard Hi, Dieter - In a message dated 6/20/2008 12:19:57 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, moellerdieter@... writes: Hi Howard ( Jon), you wrote: ( D: (Jon : Dhammas may also be classified as citta, cetasika, rupa and nibbana) it is said that all dhammas are impermanent, isn't it ? Hence how can nibbana be classified under dhammas?? =========================== Not all dhammas are said to be impermanent. Only the conditioned dhammas, the sankhata dhammas (or sankhara) are said to be. D: you are right , Howard.. on the other hand as the conditioned dhammas , our ' All' , are/is impermanent, does it make sense to say /respectively is it said so : nibbana (something totally different) - is the unconditioned dhamma? I may be a bit dense here too.. with Metta Dieter ============================= Yes, nibbana is the sole unconditioned dhamma, and it is beyond "the all." What is called "the all" are exactly the conditions knowable as objects, whereas nibbana, while knowable, is known differently by "realization". In MN 49, a sutta I would entitle "Beyond the all," the Buddha in addressing Baka Brahma said the following with regard to unmanifestive consciousness (a. k. a. nibbana): __________________________________________________ "'Having directly known the all as the all,_8_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.049.than.html#n-8) and having directly known the extent of what has not been experienced through the allness of the all, I wasn't the all, I wasn't in the all, I wasn't coming forth from the all, I wasn't "The all is mine." I didn't affirm the all. Thus I am not your mere equal in terms of direct knowing, so how could I be inferior? I am actually superior to you.' "'If, good sir, you have directly known the extent of what has not been experienced through the allness of the all, may it not turn out to be actually vain and void for you.' "'Consciousness without surface, endless, radiant all around, has not been experienced through the earthness of earth ... the liquidity of liquid ... the fieriness of fire ... the windiness of wind ... the allness of the all.'_9_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.049.than.html#n-9) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------- With metta, Howard #87281 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jun 20, 2008 9:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Error in the Vism. Part III: Comprehend & Comprehended. sarahprocter... Dear Tep (& Han), --- On Thu, 19/6/08, Tep wrote: T:>>Patism i, 414 lists four kinds of understanding, only one of which is the full understanding : Whatever ideas(dhammas) are directly known are known. Whatever ideas are fully understood are judged(investigated ). Whatever ideas are abandoned are given up. What ever ideas are developed have a single function(rasa, taste). Whatever ideas are realized are sounded(phassita) . .... >S: Again, the first three of these refer to the 3 pari~n~nas in the Vism and commentaries. ... S: Thank you Han for your help with the Pali for this: >Han: The numberings are done by me. Based on the above text, the five understanding can then be listed as follows. (1) Whatever ideas (dhammas) are directly known are known. (abhi~n~naa pa~n~naa ~naata.t.the ~naa.nam) (2) Whatever ideas are fully understood are judged (investigated ). (pari~n~naa pa~n~naa tiira.na.t.the ~naa.nam) (3) Whatever ideas are abandoned are given up. (pahaane pa~n~naa pariccaaga.t. the ~naan.nam) (4) What ever ideas are developed have a single function (rasa, taste). (bhaavanaa pa~n~naa ekarasa.t.the ~naa.nam) (5) Whatever ideas are realized are sounded (phassita) (sacchikiriyaa pa~n~naa phassana.t.the ~naa.nam) >The English translations are taken from Tep’s presentation shown earlier in the post. ***** S: I think this confirms my comment about the reference to the 3 pari~n~nas, i.e ~naata, tiira.na and pahaana - pari~n~naa, being presented in the Patisambhidamagga too. **** The English translations are taken from Tep’s presentation shown earlier in the post. ... T:> ...Further, you cannot find the three pari~n~naas in the Patism either. Why? Because the Buddha and the Chief Disciple did not define pari~n~naa that way. Plain and simple. >>S: .... I think it's clear that the references are to just the same 3 pari~n~nas as given in the Vism quotes. So far, I really can't see the problem. T: >Maybe you are closing the eyes all the time? .... S: Perhaps we can just leave it there.....maybe we all have a little too much dust in our eyes most the time. If I had time, I'd put the Pali for the Vism lines next to the ones above, but besides being close to signing off for a spell as we travel tomorrow, for me it doesn't matter whether the details of stages of insight and development are spelled out in the suttas, the commentaries or the Abhidhamma. I do think, however, that the Patisambhidamagga is a treasure-trove and appreciate any efforts you (and Han) make to share the contents as you've done here. The English translation is so difficult, one really needs the Pali alongside, I find. Metta, Sarah ======== #87282 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jun 20, 2008 5:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Blind and the Cripple /Lame upasaka_howard Hi again, Dieter (and Jon) - Jon, my apologies for not including you in the salutation of my last post. With metta, Howard #87283 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jun 20, 2008 10:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Stopping akusala sarahprocter... Hi James, On hiri and ottappa (moral shame and scruples), --- On Tue, 17/6/08, buddhatrue wrote: >> S: All I can say is that hiri and ottappa see the shame in akusala. Akusala is shameful like the ends of the iron rod above. > >> The Buddha understood the shame in smallest faults, in all akusala. Whatever words are used, the Buddha didn't have disgust or fear with unpleasant feeling. .... >James: I am not referring to the Buddha. I don't believe that the Buddha or other arahants would ever experience hiri and ottappa. An arahant doesn't have the impetus to feel moral dread and shame because all mental activities are pure. Do you believe arahants experience hiri and ottappa? I don't. .... S: In the arhant, hiri and ottappa have been perfected. The smallest faults, the subtlest of lobhas, have been seen and eradicated. Hiri and ottappa still arise with all sobhana (beautiful) cittas, including the kiriya cittas of the arahant. They have been unshakeable powers (balas) in all circumstances, of course. To reach this level, they had to have become more and more refined, conditioning abstention from more and more subtle akusala. ... >> J:>And, remember, hiri and ottappa may or may not be accompanied by > panna. Everyday folks, never hearing of the Dhamma, experience hiri > and ottappa- as well as those on the path to enlightenment. > ... >> S: Good point and true. There is hiri and ottappa accompanying every moment of kusala. So at all moments of dana, sila or bhavana, there is hiri and ottappa. >James: Is this what the Abhidhamma says? I don't think that hiri and ottappa arise at every moment of kusala. Sarah, where are you getting your information? .... S: Right now, it's what I remember and what makes sense to me. For easy sources, I'd suggest you look in either CMA or another translation of the Abhidhamattha Sangaha (the Narada one is on-line as I recall) OR, the excellent chapter on hiri and ottappa in Nina's 'Cetasikas' (also on-line). If you want to work harder, check in the Abhidhamma, its commentaries or the Visuddhimagga. If you want to really work hard, read the suttas very carefully. .... J:> I am just trying to get an understanding of hiri and ottappa from the suttas. Your understanding of the two qualities seems to be completely different. ... S: The only way we can really understand the qualities is by understanding more and more about kusala and akusala at this moment. At moments of akusala, such as when there's desire or harsh speech or other aversion or just ignorance, there's no shame about wallowing in the mud, for example. When there are moments of genuine kindness or generosity or wise reflection, the citta is light and there's no such mud-wallowing. Hiri and ottappa are major conditions for abstaining from akusala. ... J:>ps. This is a central issue to Buddhism so agreeing to disagree is not really acceptable in my eyes. This is even more important than the meditation issue. .... S: I'm happy to discuss this topic further with you and I'm glad you see it's importance. I'll just have to take leave of this (and all other threads) until I'm back in Hong Kong however. Thanks for the useful discussion, James. Metta, Sarah p.s I know the weather has been terrible in Southern China and Hong Kong. Hope all's well in southern Taiwan. ========== #87284 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jun 20, 2008 11:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sundries sarahprocter... Dear Scott & all, Thank you for sharing all your reflections so openly. As you know, I see the understanding now of present dhammas as being the real 'break' in this weary cycle. I was listening to a recording this morning about how we spend our lives pursuing various attachments all day, every day, forgetting about how all conditioned dhammas are so impermanent, so very worthless. I was struck when reading the epilogue to the Perfections (which Connie posted) about how "discriminating thoughts of oneself and others (are defilements) of the perfection of patience". This of course was from the comy. to the Cariya Pitaka. Like you, I've always been interested in people and characters and as you know, also share a background in psychology. What we learn, of course, in the Abhidhamma, is that characters are momenetary and actually that we're all caritas (characters). So for all of us, there are lobha-types, dosa-types, moha-types and so on. We all crave pleasant feelings, we all wallow in the mud in ignorance. For all of us, we get lost in ideas of people and things, forgetting entirely that the only realities are seeing, visible object, thinking and so on. Appreciating that it's like this for everyone can be a condition for metta, compassion and patience. I think it really is the understanding which leads to more such patience, more of an understanding person and less obsession with the 'discriminating thoughts of oneself and others', less conceit, less annoyance with how others behave. Sometimes too, we see how others are treated patiently, but we forget about the patience that has been shown to us over the years by family and friends. Yes, people sometimes refer to the patience it seems some of us show here, but for me, I think with gratitude of how much patience has been shown to me and others by K.Sujin and by other friends, so perhaps it's easier. Also, the more we appreciate about conditioned dhammas, the easier to accept that everyone has their own way, their own style and we really cannot manage the world! So,in short, rather than trying to work out others' motives, I prefer to just discuss the Dhamma, see the opportunities for metta and other kusala and not bring about unnecessary distress to myself by unnecessary speculation. I also believe that anyone who hangs in here for long has, at heart, a sincere interest in understanding the teachings better. Such friends in life are few. [Perhaps it's easier for me to say this, having met many participants here, including James & Herman.] I also was just thinking of Phil's point about associating with good friends. Of course, in the ultimate sense, association with the wise can only ever be at moments of right understanding. Yes, it takes wisdom and courage to see that the path always comes back to the citta now. When we try to assist (as you're doing with your series), better not to have expectations or mind how anyone responds or not. That way, detachment is developed and we're less and less enslaved to praise and blame and the other worldly conditions. I'm so very tempted to write nice comments about the trials and tribulations of single parent-hood and how great you're doing and so on, but really, at moments of right understanding, there's no burn-out, no stress, no annoyance with others. There's hiri and ottappa 'guarding' the kusala which is light and calm too. There's also viriya (effort), courage to persevere with kusala, rather than becoming down-hearted. I'll be appreciating the series I know. Thank you again for all your support and encouragement to the rest of us, Scott. I do hope you, Connie and everyone else will help Nina and other friends during the next week or so when I doubt I'll be able to post. Remember, with metta, there's no disturbance:-). As for the 'occasional' shoe-droppers, metta and consideration too! Metta, Sarah p.s signing off now..... ======= #87285 From: "m. nease" Date: Fri Jun 20, 2008 11:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sundries m_nease Hi Connie, connie wrote: > 'Affected by pleasure and pain in the village or wilderness, > you should certainly not consider it as due to oneself or another. > Contacts affect one with cleaving as condition, > How could contacts affect one without cleaving?' Very nice, thanks. mike #87286 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jun 20, 2008 11:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sundries nilovg Dear Connie, Thanks for the trouble, but I have some problems with the links. this and the halfsmile do not work. Nina. Op 19-jun-2008, om 14:49 heeft connie het volgende geschreven: > Here, for reference, are the sources: > > *Suttapi.taka: Diigha Nikaaya, Paatikavaggapaa.li, 10. > Sa'ngiitisutta.m > CSCD _http://tipitaka.org/romn/_ #87287 From: "m. nease" Date: Fri Jun 20, 2008 1:38 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XVII,270 m_nease Hi Robert, rjkjp1 wrote: > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.135.than.html > "Master Gotama, what is the reason, what is the cause, why baseness > & excellence are seen among human beings, among the human race? > For short-lived & long-lived people are to be seen, sickly & healthy, ugly > & beautiful, uninfluential & influential, poor & rich, low-born & high- > born, stupid & discerning people are to be seen. So what is the reason, > what is the cause, why baseness & excellence are seen among human > beings, among the human race?" > > "Students, beings are owners of kamma, heir to kamma, born of > kamma, related through kamma, and have kamma as their arbitrator. > Kamma is what creates distinctions among beings in terms of > coarseness & refinement." > > "There is the case, where a woman or man is ill-tempered & easily > upset; even when lightly criticized, he/she grows offended, provoked, > malicious, & resentful; shows annoyance, aversion, & bitterness. > Through having adopted & carried out such actions, on the break-up of > the body, after death, he/she reappears in the plane of deprivation... If > instead he/she comes to the human state, then he/she is ugly wherever > reborn. This is the way leading to ugliness: to be ill-tempered & easily > upset; even when lightly criticized, to grow offended, provoked, > malicious, & resentful; to show annoyance, aversion, & bitterness.:: I resemble that! Thanks for this good reminder (and caveat). mike #87288 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Jun 20, 2008 5:43 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Stopping akusala buddhatrue Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi James, > > On hiri and ottappa (moral shame and scruples), James: It's Moral Shame and Moral Fear, not "scruples". > > --- On Tue, 17/6/08, buddhatrue wrote: > >> S: All I can say is that hiri and ottappa see the shame in > akusala. Akusala is shameful like the ends of the iron rod above. > > > >> The Buddha understood the shame in smallest faults, in all > akusala. Whatever words are used, the Buddha didn't have disgust or > fear with unpleasant feeling. > .... > >James: I am not referring to the Buddha. I don't believe that the > Buddha or other arahants would ever experience hiri and ottappa. An > arahant doesn't have the impetus to feel moral dread and shame > because all mental activities are pure. Do you believe arahants > experience hiri and ottappa? I don't. > .... > S: In the arhant, hiri and ottappa have been perfected. The smallest faults, the subtlest of lobhas, have been seen and eradicated. Hiri and ottappa still arise with all sobhana (beautiful) cittas, including the kiriya cittas of the arahant. James: Again, I would like some sort of quote from the texts to support this. You keep repeating yourself and providing no evidence. They have been unshakeable powers (balas) in all circumstances, of course. To reach this level, they had to have become more and more refined, conditioning abstention from more and more subtle akusala. > ... > >> J:>And, remember, hiri and ottappa may or may not be accompanied > by > > panna. Everyday folks, never hearing of the Dhamma, experience > hiri > > and ottappa- as well as those on the path to enlightenment. > > ... > >> S: Good point and true. There is hiri and ottappa accompanying > every moment of kusala. So at all moments of dana, sila or bhavana, > there is hiri and ottappa. > > >James: Is this what the Abhidhamma says? I don't think that hiri > and ottappa arise at every moment of kusala. Sarah, where are you > getting your information? > .... > S: Right now, it's what I remember and what makes sense to me. For easy sources, I'd suggest you look in either CMA or another translation of the Abhidhamattha Sangaha (the Narada one is on-line as I recall) OR, the excellent chapter on hiri and ottappa in Nina's 'Cetasikas' (also on-line). > > If you want to work harder, check in the Abhidhamma, its commentaries or the Visuddhimagga. > > If you want to really work hard, read the suttas very carefully. James: Well, doesn't this just take the cake!! I provide textual support and what do you provide? Nothing. You try to give me a homework assignment. Well, Sarah, I am not going to do your homework assignment. If you don't know something for a fact, and you can't provide the evidence to back it up, you really shouldn't be posting on this subject and you really shouldn't be giving people moral guidance. (And, BTW, Nina's "Cetaskikas" isn't an ancient text). > .... > S: I'm happy to discuss this topic further with you and I'm glad you see it's importance. I'll just have to take leave of this (and all other threads) until I'm back in Hong Kong however. James: Well, if you post on it again then please have some textual support from some sort of ancient text (and not Nina's books). > > Thanks for the useful discussion, James. James: I think it has been completely unuseful, for everyone. > > Metta, > > Sarah > p.s I know the weather has been terrible in Southern China and Hong Kong. Hope all's well in southern Taiwan. James: The weather here has been really terrible also. Raining all the time. I am starting to call Taiwan "Water World". :-) #87289 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Jun 20, 2008 5:49 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Stopping akusala buddhatrue Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi James, > > On hiri and ottappa (moral shame and scruples), A bit more from "Abhidhamma in Daily Life" (Not the one by Nina but by by Buddhist monk ASHIN JANAKABHIVAMSA (Everything he writes suggests that hiri and ottappa are accompanied by unpleasant feeling): 3. Hiri (Moral Shame) and Ottappa (Moral Fear) To feel ashamed to do evil is hiri; dread or fear to do evil is ottappa. Hiri is evident in those who value their honour and dignity. Ottappa is evident in those who respect their parents, teachers, friends and relatives. Further clarification is as follows: When one reasons; "I belong to a good family. So, I should not indulge in unwholesome deeds, nor earn my living as a fisherman or as a hunter." Thus he feels ashamed to resort to indecent livelihood and maintains the honour of his family or clan. The educated will reason thus: We are learned persons; we should feel ashamed of unwholesome acts of doing bad deeds. We must refrain from killing, stealing. etc." The aged will reason thus; "We are old, and ought to be mature and wise. If we commit evil we will come into shameful situations." These three instances show the dominance of hiri, a wholesome mental factor, in those who value their honour and dignity. Those who are considerate of others will reason: "If I do evil, my parents, friends, relatives, and teachers will be blamed because of me. Therefore I will not do any evil. I will avoid misdeeds." This is a fine example of ottappa. So a person acquires hiri and ottappa by means of sympathetic considerations for others and by upholding the honour and dignity of his close acquaintances. But if you have no sympathetic consideration for your family, teachers, etc., you lack both hiri and ottappa and you will do many evil deeds in your life. Hiri and ottappa protect you from immorality putting restraints on sons from misconduct with mothers as well as on brothers from committing sin with sisters. They are regarded, therefore, as two great guardians of the world - Lokapala Dhamma, protecting you from immorality. So they are pure and wholesome ideals, known also as "Sukka Dhamma". These two Dhammas keep human beings in moral discipline and moral restraint that distinguish them from animals. Without hiri and ottappa, mankind will sink into evil depths. and be reduced to the state of animals. Today many people are void of moral shame and moral dread so that they dress, eat and behave indecently. If this moral decay continues to proliferate, the world will soon end in complete ruin. For mankind will then turn into animals. False Hiri and Ottappa Although moral shame and moral fear are wholesome mental factors (kusala cetasika) there also are false ones. Shame or fear to do evil deeds, abstinence from evil actions (duccarita) are due to true hiri and true ottappa. Shame and dread to keep Uposatha observance, to visit pagodas and monasteries, to listen to Dhamma talks, to speak in public, to do manual labour (not being ashamed of being unemployed and starving to death), or boy meeting girl, etc., are false hiri and ottappa. In fact they are pretensions and vain pride. According to Abhidhamma they all are collectively taken as a form of "tanha". Four Cases Where Shame Should be Discarded In the books mention is made of four cases where one should discard shame: (1) in trade and commerce; (2) in learning under a competent teacher; (3) in partaking of food, and (4) in making love. These cases are mentioned to emphasise the point that one should be bold doing something of benefit. No commitment is made on whether they are moral or immoral. Other instances of hiri and ottappa are fear of courts and judges, reluctance to visit the lavatory while travelling, fear of dogs, fear of ghosts, fear of unknown places, fear of opposite sex, fear of elders and parents, fear of speaking in the presence of elders, etc. These are not genuine fear or shame. Indeed they are mere lack of nerve or confidence, a collection of unwholesome (akusala) states propelled by domanassa. The Middle Way The above explanation will clarify the fact that only genuine shame and fear are to be cultivated. There should neither be shame nor fear doing deeds that are not unwholesome. But this does not mean one must be reckless and bold in every case. Recklessness leads to disrespect for elders, anger, hatred and conceit. While moral courage and fearlessness are to be praised, recklessness and disrespect are to be blamed. Fruitless boldness, disrespect and vain courage are undesirable; one should be bold and fearless only in doing good deeds. Excess of shame and fear are equally undesirable. There is a middle path for all to follow. One is not to be fearless in circumstances that one should have fear; and one should fear evil deeds. The Buddha said "Most people fear what should not be feared and become fearless of what should be feared". Abhayitabbe bhayanti, bhayitabbe na bhayare. http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/abdmjnk2.htm Metta, James #87290 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Fri Jun 20, 2008 6:07 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XVII,270 egberdina Hi Robert, 2008/6/20 rjkjp1 : > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" > wrote: >> >> >> But what renders this schmience dressed up as Dhamma less relevant >> than anything else is that it has no bearing at all on the Path. >> >> > > I didn't follow this thread but I assume you know the suttas where the > Buddha indicated the reason for inferiority and superiority (basness and > excellence) of beings: > e.g. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.135.than.html > > This is standard Buddhist teaching so I was surprised you seem to > disagree? Just a little bit more on this. The very next sutta to the one you quote MN136 is also standard Buddhist teaching. And it gives quite a different angle on the matter. "So, Ananda, there is kamma that is incapable (of good result) and appears incapable (of good result); there is kamma that is incapable (of good result) and appears capable (of good result); there is kamma that is capable (of good result) and appears capable (of good result); there is kamma that is capable (of good result) and appears incapable (of good result)." It seems that in presenting what the Buddha taught on causation there is ample room to be selective, and rather than arriving at some understanding, we only end up seeing what we intend to see. But I re-affirm my point. No amount of theorising about the causes of the world or the people in it being the the way they are, has any bearing on the Path. No exposition of Dependent Origination includes an exposition of The Noble Eightfold Path, and no exposition of the Noble Eightfold Path includes an exposition of Dependent Origination. Why? Because whatever I do next is kamma, not result. Cheers Herman #87291 From: "connie" Date: Fri Jun 20, 2008 6:13 pm Subject: Re: Sundries - links nichiconn Dear Nina, I'm sorry. Thanks for mentioning it. http://tipitaka.org/romn/ you will find DN, Paatikavaggapaa.li, 10 along the side menu I forgot to say that I don't know why getting the halfsmile site is so iffy. Sometimes you get it, others, not. Anyway, try the link from Googling Michael Olds Buddhadust Sangiti Just now, that wouldn't work for me, either. Could it be a Buddhist computer joke? Conditions, of course. peace, connie Thanks for the trouble, but I have some problems with the links. this and the halfsmile do not work. Nina. Op 19-jun-2008, om 14:49 heeft connie het volgende geschreven: > Here, for reference, are the sources: > > *Suttapi.taka: Diigha Nikaaya, Paatikavaggapaa.li, 10. > Sa'ngiitisutta.m > CSCD _http://tipitaka.org/romn/_ #87292 From: "connie" Date: Fri Jun 20, 2008 6:54 pm Subject: Re: Sundries nichiconn Dear Dieter, It is a study corner for the sangiiti sutta, DN33. I don't know what I might say. If I get it together, I will send the first sutta extract in the morning. We'll have to see what happens. peace, connie D: thanks Connie.. actually I suppose (d ) your message is a start of a new series in which you will elaborate your thoughts about well and badly aquired study respectively practise..(?) #87293 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Fri Jun 20, 2008 7:13 pm Subject: Re: Phil: [dsg] Re: Overview of KS 3: Her Faulty Teaching egberdina Hi Nina, 2008/6/20 Nina van Gorkom : > Hi Phil, > Op 19-jun-2008, om 5:57 heeft Phil het volgende geschreven: > > -------- > N: Was it that Kh said: it had happened already by conditions, no use > to worry? If you have aversion about it, you accumulate more akusala. > Anyway we are bound to do a lot of thinking of what is past already. > This is not helpful. Better to know citta at this moment. Is it > kusala or akusala? Dsg seems to foster talking past one another. Kusala in the suttas is about conduct, behaviour, actions in a world of beings. Phil is talking about conduct in the world. Why answer a question about conduct in the world from a point of view where there is neither a world or conduct in it? > The "just understand approach": this is not an easy way out. It takes > courage and detachment to understand whatever arises now. Also > patience, patience if you detect a lot of akusala. You can understand > that it is conditioned by the latent tendencies, by past > accumulations. Understanding is just what is absent when I say that whatever I do now is conditioned by what I have done in the past. Cheers Herman #87294 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Fri Jun 20, 2008 7:47 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XVII,270 egberdina Hi Tep, 2008/6/20 Tep : > Hi Herman (Howard, Robert K), - > > Same old argument, isn't? A simple and right answer is given below. > ............... > > T: What is reborn is not an atta, according to the Buddha. The > ignorance, volitional formations, rebirth-linking citta and becoming > are all anatta. > > Listen Herman. Not only atta, anatta, volitional formations, kamma > and rebirth are standard teachings of the Lord Buddha, but also are > the Four Noble Truths and Dependent Origination. > What do you think is the connection, if any, between The Four Noble Truths (especially the EightFold Noble Path) and Dependent Origination. Cheers Herman #87295 From: "connie" Date: Fri Jun 20, 2008 8:07 pm Subject: Re: gimme an "S" nichiconn Dear Phil, Ph: Yes, you're exactly right. It's all about my expectations, trying to forge an approach to Dhamma that is just like I want. Which is silly, of course...but having that kind of expecation is at least a sign of interest in the Dhamma which is always good. You know, all the bickering and cross talk that goes on here. Wouldn't be going on if the people weren't keen on Dhamma. Anyways, thanks for the sympathy... connie: Well, I don't know about being exactly right, but you're half right yourself. Having any expectation must be interest in our own idea of Buddhism, but there we are. And for the most part, there we stay. It's amazing how bitterly we will fight to stand our own ground. We take comfort in having others who stand with us, but it's also true that as with our enemies, also Friends can be hard to recognize and we fail to truly appreciate either. Still and always, in the end, we each live in our own worlds and if we take anyone out, it is only ever going to be ourselves. Hope to see you in the "Sundries". peace, connie #87296 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Jun 20, 2008 8:26 pm Subject: Re: Jhana Meditation. Again. jonoabb Hi Alex > It is necessery for Anagami stage and full Awakening. In fact if we > take some phrases literally, a stream-enterer possess the N8P which > includes 4 Jhanas. OK, just so that we're both clear on what's being discussed: your understanding is that jhana (i.e., jhana of samatha bhavana) is a necessary prerequisite to the attainment of Anagami stage of enlightenment, but not to any lower stages of enlightenment (nor to the development of insight per se, I presume). Is this a correct statement of what you came in to say? > But Jhana must be cultivated. Its not a little-child passive stage. > SOmetimes active steps to remove hindrances must be present. Well, the actual development of samatha is an issue in itself, so perhaps we can come back to this later. > Without removing (at least temporary) the 5 hindrances, you can't > develop supramundane insight to any serious degree. In fact > consciously removing the 5 hindrances themselves at will is an > insight-in-action of a certain level. But what you say here is not something found in MN52, the sutta you quoted to support your assertion that jhana is a necessary prerequisite to the attainment of anagami stage of enlightenment. As I pointed out, MN52 refers to jhana consciousness being seen as "fabricated & intended. ... inconstant & subject to cessation", followed by the reaching of the ending of the mental fermentations. This appears to be a standard description of insight into presently arisen dhammas. Perhaps you have other sutta passages that relate more directly to the point about jhana as a prerequisite to the attainment of enlightenment at the stage of anagami? Jon #87297 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Jun 20, 2008 8:28 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XVII,270 lbidd2 Hi Herman, Herman: "I wonder if you believe that relationships between dhammas are realities, and if you do, how they could possibly come to be known by observing only the present dhamma?" Larry: The only way to know a relationship is to observe the elements of the relationship. Then the whole thing dissolves. What is left over is understanding. But that's just talk. It isn't observing anything. When you think "I", what is being grasped? Larry #87298 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Jun 20, 2008 8:29 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: [ dsg] Re: Kamma, was Death. jonoabb Hi Herman Apologies if my previous message was not clearly expressed. Let me see if I can do better. > I don't get the significance of your point. We agree that there are > multiple individual dhammas, and the knowable relationships between > them. That is the entity, the stream of consciousness. Individual dhammas are directly knowable by panna, as are the relationships holding among them (assuming panna of sufficiently developed level). However, there is no directly knowable thing called "stream of consciousness"; only individual dhammas and their attributes (one of which is the conditions pertaining) are directly knowable. "Stream of consciousness" is merely a designation for multiple individual dhammas to which a certain relationship applies. > What possibilities are you at pains to deny here, in saying that there > is no entity to be known apart from this? Are you suggesting that > there are no unknown entities? In absolute terms, compounds of individual dhammas are not entities and are not directly knowable (if they were, that would make just about everything a directly knowable entity). > You've lost me, I'm afraid. Are there multiple individual dhammas and > the knowable relationships between them, or not? What do you mean, if > that is what you mean, that this is not so ultimately? Simply, we can talk about the so-called entities consisting of multiple individual dhammas as if they were entities, but in doing so we make use of conventions of speech and conventional designations. Likewise, we can talk about factors that are internal or external to the stream, as long as we are conceptualising the stream in the same terms. > > In purely conventional terms, this could be said. > > All terms are always purely conventional, Jon. Are you suggesting > there are ultimate terms? Agreed, terms are always conventional. But terms can be used to refer to dhammas, or they can be used as mere designations. If you want to say that it's possible for a stream to know itself, and refer to itself, that's fine as long as we understand that this is so only at the conventional level. > I look forward to your reply :-) Hoping this is clearer. Jon #87299 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Jun 20, 2008 8:35 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Views re self & the world DN2 jonoabb Hi Herman > > The Buddha frequently praised the *monk's life, properly lived*, but > > not the *monk's life* per se. The distinction is important (see the > > suttas on the perils of being a monk with bad sila). > > I agree the distinction is important. See MN65: 'Venerable sir, what > is the reason that earlier, with few rules many bhikkhus attained > extinction, and now with many rules a few bhikkhus attain extinction?' > 'Baddali, it happens when human beings diminish in good and when the > Teaching deteriorates. Many rules are appointed few bhikkhus attain > extinction.' The Buddha is calling a spade a spade here. The > Patimokkha rules are an indictment of the sangha that needs them. An interesting passage, but not the one I had in mind, which was to the effect that failure to live the monk's life properly would lead to unfortunate rebirth. > But you have put your own spin on my post, which made no reference to monks. If I have mistaken the point of your reference to householders, please feel free to explain what the point was. > Your conclusion does not follow. Just because there are an increasing > number of monks unworthy of almsfood, does not mean that renunciation > is not fundamental to insight. The proposition you mention here, that renunciation is fundamental to insight, is what I took to be the point of your earlier post. I would agree that the sutta you have cited above does not support the contrary proposition. > I don't doubt that such a sutta exists, although I do not know it. If > the suggestion is that one can be absorbed in the affairs of the world > and be free from suffering simultaneously, then I'll happily pass > judgment on that sutta without needing to read it. But tell me, Jon, > if 151 suttas say one thing, and 1 sutta says another, why latch onto > that 1 sutta? Ah, but do the 151 suttas say what you say they do, namely, that (physical) renunciation is fundamental to insight? To my understanding (but speaking as someone who does not claim to have personally read them all), the suttas are consistent in that, while praising the monk's life properly lived, they do not make that assertion. > I do not know what unmanifested attachment would refer to. A bit like > unmanifested panna, I expect :-) Manifested qualities are those appearing at the present moment. All the other qualities that are accumulated in the individual stream but are not appearing at the present moment are latent (or unmanifested) qualities. > If your premise is that insight is possible for anyone, regardless of > what they do, then I will politely disagree. And I will refer you back > to the Buddha acknowledging in MN65 that even in his lifetime, the > number attaining the goal for which the holy life is lived became a > trickle. And not long after the parinibbana of the Buddha, noone in > the Theravadan tradition is credited with any attainments anymore. And > in the period of the commentators, belief in the possibility of > nibbana is actively suspended. But does MN65 say, or necessarily imply, that insight cannot be developed unless there is (some degree of physical) renunciation? > > We are all "people with > > their snouts in the trough of sensuality" and for the most part we are > > "fully intent on keeping them there", with the moments of detachment > > from the delights within the trough being relatively few. > > Quite so. And this will not change if we take our lead from > commentators who have achieved nothing in terms of Path, and deny > others any other possibility. The Way of the Elders goes where, Jon? The commentarial tradition explains the teachings in a way that makes all 3 Pitakas a unified whole, and does not require the selective rejection of suttas, etc that do not fit one's personal view ;-)) Jon #87300 From: "szmicio" Date: Fri Jun 20, 2008 10:10 pm Subject: akusala cetasika - ditthi and vicikiccha szmicio What is the charakteristic of ditthi and vicikiccha? Is it vicikiccha a doubt? and ditthi a conception? Always when I was sitting i thought that it is my practise and I am doing something , I am more calm or I observe something. But now I think that was only conception. Was it ditthi cetasika? There is only nama and rupa. How often ditthi arise? What is vicikiccha?Is it this moment of confusion, not knowing, doubts? What is a diference of vicikiccha and ditthi? When they arise I usually name it and trying to see? Considering that they arise. Is the moment of seeing the same important as moment of thinking? bye Lukas #87301 From: Sukinder Date: Fri Jun 20, 2008 10:38 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: response to hate mail etc - ... Credibility sukinderpal Hi Herman, > Herman: > You do not hesitate to reject any number of traditions, and often > publicly do so. By which conceit did "your" tradition become the > superior one? > > Sukin: No "my" tradition, so no conceit here. But I understand the > Dhamma to be the *only* expression of the Truth, which is the reason why > I easily reject all other teachings. Herman: Is it possible that you actually mean that you believe this, rather than understand it? S: Even intellectual understanding arises rarely compared. And when it does arise, namely Suttamaya panna or Cintamaya panna this is likely followed by and interspersed with ‘thinking’ in the form of conclusions made and positions held. The latter is what I would call “belief” and I believe ;-), that this happens also with any arising of satipatthana, particularly in the case of a beginner. Moreover given that tanha arises at every turn, there is no reason not to think that these positions are often held with attachment. And when I made my statement above, there was probably no wise reflection, not to mention satipatthana. But Herman, why do you ask this? What would our communication be like if both or even one of us asked the kind of question you’ve asked with every assertion made? If you have something to say that might prove me wrong, why don’t you just state them? Metta, Sukin #87302 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Jun 20, 2008 11:29 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: response to hate mail etc - revised and corrected edition kenhowardau Hi Dieter, Sorry for the delay in sending this reply. I have just now deleted most of it. It didn't stand the test of time. :-) -------------------- D: Right understanding is the forerunner of the different aspects of the 8fold Noble Path. Because of right understanding/view ,there is right thought and so there is right speech and so there is right action and so there is right livehood etc. , i.e. the Noble Path leading to the cessation of suffering opens for the Noble Ones.. but of course there is the need of aproaching '..developing by training these aspects ,e.g. by contemplation of the 4 foundations of mindfulness -------------------- I think you must be aware of the Abhidhamma explanation of the Eightfold Path. Therefore, I don't need to tell you there is no self (no conventional entity) that travels it. The path is just a fleeting moment of namas and rupas in which the cetasika-namas called Path Factors perform their supramundane functions. Essentially the same thing is happening now. There is no self; there are just momentary namas and rupas performing their mundane functions. My point is: when we bear this in mind, there can't possibly be any desire for a future state can there? Even a future state of *enlightenment* (magga-citta) can't possibly be an object of longing or desire. Not while we are bearing in mind the fact that there are only fleeting namas and rupas (no self that can go on to become enlightened etc.). So I wonder why there are so many differences in our respective understandings of the texts. What is causing these differences? ------------- D: > Is satipatthana defined by' right understanding of conditioned reality 'based on an Abh. source or your conclusion? ------------- I think it is in more or less every paragraph of every page of the Tipitaka, isn't it? The five khandhas (conditioned reality) are to be seen as anicca, dukkha and anatta. What could be more ubiquitous than that? ------------------------ D: > I think that the common understanding of satipatthana is correctly expressed by Nayantiloka: " the 4 'foundations of mindfulness', lit. 'awarenesses of mindfulness' (sati-upaá¹¹?na), are: contemplation of body, feeling, mind and mind-objects. - -------------------------- We read the same texts, but we understand them differently. Why is that? Is it because we don't agree on what I wrote above - about there being only namas and rupas (nothing worth clinging to; nothing worth longing to have in the future)? Ken H #87303 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Sat Jun 21, 2008 12:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XVII,270 egberdina Hi Larry, 2008/6/21 : > Hi Herman, > > Herman: "I wonder if you believe that relationships between dhammas are > realities, and if you do, how they could possibly come to be known by > observing only the present dhamma?" > > Larry: The only way to know a relationship is to observe the elements of > the relationship. Then the whole thing dissolves. What is left over is > understanding. But that's just talk. It isn't observing anything. Would you have me believe that you live in a world of one-sided coins, Larry? Try as I might I can never see both sides of a coin at once, but every time I turn a coin over, there is always another face to it. That's not just talk, try it for yourself. >When you think "I", what is being grasped? This body and it's consciousness. I believe you are one of those too :-) Cheers Herman #87304 From: han tun Date: Sat Jun 21, 2008 1:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Error in the Vism. Part III Comprehend & Comprehended hantun1 Dear Sarah and Tep, Sarah: If I had time, I'd put the Pali for the Vism lines next to the ones above, but besides being close to signing off for a spell as we travel tomorrow, for me it doesn't matter whether the details of stages of insight and development are spelled out in the suttas, the commentaries or the Abhidhamma. I do think, however, that the Patisambhidamagga is a treasure-trove and appreciate any efforts you (and Han) make to share the contents as you've done here. The English translation is so difficult, one really needs the Pali alongside, I find. Han: If you like, I can give the Pali text of Vism. -------------------- Vism XX,3. Here is the exposition: there are three kinds of mundane full-understanding, that is, full-understanding as the known, full-understanding as investigation, and full-understanding as abandoning, with reference to which it was said: “Understanding that is direct-knowledge is knowledge in the sense of being known. Understanding that is full-understanding is knowledge in the sense of investigating. Understanding that is abandoning is knowledge in the sense of giving upâ€? (Ps.i,87). -------------------- Tatraayam vinicchayo, tisso hi lokiya pari~n~naa, ~naata pari~n~naa, tiira.na pari~n~naa, pahaana pari~n~naa ca. Yaa santdhaaya vuttam “abhi~n~naa pa~n~naa ~naata.t.the ~naa.nam, pari~n~naa pa~n~naa tiira.na.t.the ~naa.nam, pahaana pa~n~naa pariccaaga.t.the ~naa.naâ€?nti. ------------------- Han: The Pali text for the second paragraph of Vism XX,3 is as follows. Tatha “ruuppana lakkha.nam ruupam, vedayita lakkha.naa vedanaaâ€?ti evam tesam tesam dhammanam paccattalakkha.na-sallakkha.na-vasena pavattaa pa~n~naa ~naata pari~n~naa naama. “ruupam aniccam, vedanaa aniccaaâ€?ti aadinaa nayena tesam yeva dhammanam saama~n~na lakkha.nam aaropetvaa pavattaa lakkha.naaramma.nika-vipassanaa pa~n~naa tiira.na pari~n~naa naama. Tesuyeva pana dhammesu nicca-sa~n~naa-dipajahana-vasena pavattaa lakkha.naaramma.nika-vipassanaa pa~n~naa pahaana pari~n~naa naama. Respectfully, Han #87305 From: "Tep" Date: Sat Jun 21, 2008 2:07 am Subject: Re: Error in the Vism. Part III: Comprehend & Comprehended. dhammanusarin Dear Sarah (Nina, Han, Herman, Connie, James), - I read your reply #87281 (6/20/08) twice to make sure I did not misunderstand your words. .......................... >S: Again, the first three of these refer to the 3 pari~n~nas in the Vism and commentaries. ... S: Thank you Han for your help with the Pali for this: ... S: I think this confirms my comment about the reference to the 3 pari~n~nas, i.e. ~naata, tiira.na and pahaana - pari~n~naa, being presented in the Patisambhidamagga too. **** T: >Maybe you are closing the eyes all the time? .... S: Perhaps we can just leave it there.....maybe we all have a little too much dust in our eyes most the time. If I had time, I'd put the Pali for the Vism lines next to the ones above, but besides being close to signing off for a spell as we travel tomorrow, for me it doesn't matter whether the details of stages of insight and development are spelled out in the suttas, the commentaries or the Abhidhamma. I do think, however, that the Patisambhidamagga is a treasure-trove and appreciate any efforts you (and Han) make to share the contents as you've done here. The English translation is so difficult, one really needs the Pali alongside, I find. Metta, Sarah ======== T: James would have said that my question above was sarcastic. But it was said matter-of-factly, without the intention to mock or ridicule. And so I thank you for the wise observation that "maybe we all have a little too much dust in our eyes most the time". Indeed, that was one of my motivations to write the three-part series, quoting the Buddha's and Arahant Sariputta's words very heavily, in order that you (and Nina) might see the different messages of the Arahants. Well, your denial is not the first I saw: it is a recurring event. {:>( The message is clear though that I should have directed the effort to wash away the dust from my own eyes. Thank you very much. Suddenly, I see the light. [That is the truth.] Best wishes, Tep === #87306 From: "Tep" Date: Sat Jun 21, 2008 2:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XVII,270 dhammanusarin Dear Herman, - Whenever you change the subject, can I assume that you are satisfied with my answer, or not? ;-)) > > Tep: Listen Herman. Not only atta, anatta, volitional > > formations, kamma and rebirth are standard teachings of the Lord Buddha, > > but also are the Four Noble Truths and Dependent Origination. > > ................. > > What do you think is the connection, if any, between The Four Noble > Truths (especially the EightFold Noble Path) and Dependent > Origination. > > Cheers > > > Herman > ................. T: I remember discussing this exact subject with the venerable Vimaralamsi back in 2005 or 2006. The connection is that the 1st, 2nd and 3rd Truths are seen in the Dependent Origination, not the 4th. That has been my understanding. Disagree or not? Tep === #87307 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 21, 2008 3:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sangiiti sutta. nilovg Dear Connie and Scott, As mentioned before (long ago), PTS sent me by mistake in hardcover the entire Co to Diigha Nikaaya, 3 volumes. I wanted to send it back, but Lodewijk said to keep it. When I objected that Co. Paali was too difficult for me, he said: of course you can read it. Then I read almost the entire co. to the Sangiitisutta and kept all my notes, about six or eight years ago. I did not know that in the future a Connie and a Scott would stand up and start a study corner of this sutta. Conditions. Thus, I can contribute, but do not have the Co. on line, only hard cover. How to go about it, typing out the whole translation is too heavy. Fragments? I did not read the beginning which is an intro to the sutta, but I can read it now. I hope the tempo is slow. Above all, let us relate each para to daily life. This sutta shows the unity of the Tipitaka, Abhidhamma in the sutta. To us the task to show that the Abhidhamma is not technical. Off we go! Nina. P.s. I try the link now, Connie. Op 21-jun-2008, om 3:54 heeft connie het volgende geschreven: > It is a study corner for the sangiiti sutta, DN33. I don't know > what I might say. #87308 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 21, 2008 3:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sundries - links nilovg Dear Connie, I get the titles only, and I cannot download the Pali, nor the Co. Nina. Op 21-jun-2008, om 3:13 heeft connie het volgende geschreven: > http://tipitaka.org/romn/ > you will find DN, Paatikavaggapaa.li, 10 along the side menu #87309 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Jun 21, 2008 5:11 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sangiiti sutta. scottduncan2 Dear Nina (and Lodewijk), This is excellent! N: "As mentioned before (long ago), PTS sent me by mistake in hardcover the entire Co to Diigha Nikaaya, 3 volumes. I wanted to send it back, but Lodewijk said to keep it...Thus, I can contribute, but do not have the Co. on line, only hard cover. How to go about it, typing out the whole translation is too heavy. Fragments?...Off we go!" Scott: Slow pace is good. We plan to go slowly, with a new portion every week or so. Maybe we can tell you of the next instalment at the time of posting its predecessor, such that we can prepare. We can present small portions each time. I had said to connie that I wished I could read the Commmentary to the sutta, and now, since Lodewijk had the foresight, we can all enjoy it! Good call, Lodewijk. Sincerely, Scott. #87310 From: "Phil" Date: Sat Jun 21, 2008 5:15 am Subject: Re: Overview of KS 3: Her Faulty Teaching philofillet Hi Sukin I will conclude (from my side, at least) our little exchange without hopefully adding anymore fuel to the fire. (Not that we are being bad-tempered, I just mean the fire of views flying around on computer screens.) > > ============ > Phil: > We're all attached to self whether we > are keen on anatta or not. "Detachment from the beginning" is > delusionary and contrary to the Buddha's gradual training, I think, > though pleasant to reflect on. > > Sukin: This is an example of what I see as your projecting your own past > experiences and misunderstanding on to us. Ph: Yes, you're right. I do this. I acknowledged as much in a post to Nina or Sarah or someone. But as I feel myself akin to people, kindred to people, I tend to feel the same processes are at work in others here. I personally can't believe that anyone comes to the Dhamma from anything but mortal fear, a desire for happiness, a desire for liberation from suffering in very basic forms. I simply can't beleive that so I tend to downplay or denigrate others' claims to any other motive other than the above. I can't say I'm sorry I do that, no harm intended. I keep thinking a day will come when I just stick to studying the texts, but I guess it won't since people will other make denigrating comments but each other's approaches to Dhamma here, even if they are kindly toned. And I don't have the maturity not to take the bait. But I'm glad to say I don't feel any hostility towards you. > Knowing the "Truth?Emust automatically come with `detachment?E that is > its nature. Not knowing the Truth is the reason why tanha somehow finds > its way. Now you may question whether there is any "understanding?E at > all for some of us or that there is even such a thing as `i ntellectual > level of understanding?E The first is subjective so no point in talking > about it. The latter relates to the matter of `beginner?Ethat I want to > discuss with you about, so let me know if you wish to do so. Ph: A very important topic, Sukin. Maybe someday! I am in one of my "extraction from threads" modes at the moment. Going to Canada in a month or so and want to finish the first draft of a novel I'm writing by then, so I will be shutting up. But happy to say that posting here again does have me reflecting on Dhamma more than baseball, and it hasn't been like that for a couple of months. So that's good. Thanks! Metta, PHil p.s I will go to the other post now. There is one point in there, I think, that I especially want to take note of for later discussion. > ============= > Phil: > It is self that drives you to post here as well, don't you think? (Don't > answer that, just reflect, if > there are conditions for it.) Liberation from self is something to be > gained, not decided on by thinking about it and discussing it, or > listening to someone talking about it. > > Sukin: Again here you state something which relates to the fact of the > beginner and needs to be discussed. But one point here, no one has ever > claimed that pariyatti equals patipatti, let alone realization (your > liberation from self). This seems to be the kind of diversion used by > quite a few members here, but let's try to avoid this. > > ============ > Phil: > You've been patient with me, Sukin, thanks. You *might* find I > will be less irritating for awhile. But I had such a good, diligent > feeling day today as a result of posting what I did about striving > towards wholesomeness that I will not leave here. Reading posts by > people who underappreciate the need for diligent striving conditions > it in..."me." > > Sukin: Yes please I would really appreciate any and every reminder about > kusala from you or anyone else. But also be prepared to be pointed out > about the "I?Ewhich usually accompanies them. ;-) The above in fact > indicates to me the difference between our approaches, your thoughts > about Sila conditioned thought about not only your own future, but also > that of others, and this appears like `attachment?Eto me. On the other > hand, when some of us talk about detachment from the beginning, this is > because knowing the present moment includes knowing that whatever arises > be it kusala or akusala, this is conditioned and beyond control. Hence > there is neither thinking with concern nor feeling of inspiration > related to the future. > > Now I go to your other post. > > Metta, > > Sukin > #87311 From: "Phil" Date: Sat Jun 21, 2008 5:26 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Overview of KS 3: Her Faulty Teaching philofillet Hi again Sukin A couple of points > > Sukin: All I can say is that if you fail to read the Abhidhamma with the > understanding about its application to your moment to moment > experiences, I think that you might as well not study it. There is no > virtue in reading just for the sake of acquiring `information?E Ph: In one of my notebooks I came across a very good quote from Robert K about the importance of theory, about the way people tend to underappreciate theory, or dismiss it or something, and that if one doesn't have a very firm and broad base of theory, one's understanding will go wrong, and therefore one will go the wrong way or something. For me, I like to approach Abhidhamma as theory, sorry. I think it represents very, very deep degrees of understanding that can only be appreciated by us as theory. When we try to make it our own, and say "Abhidhamma is not in the book, it is all about daily life, the present moment" it is just a great big gushing of lobha and desire for premature deepening of understanding. I'm sorry, that's how I see it. When I do study Abhidhamma I feel a kind of awe at the depth of the understanding laid out in it, but I personally do not aspire to it. So no point in studying it? I don't know, I think there is, but for me, at least for now, I want it to be as theory. I do not aspire to taking it off the page and pulling it here and there with lobha. Again, yes, that's the way I see it. From > this point of view, I sincerely believe that your reading the Suttas > must also then be with a wrong attitude of mind. You will see that those > who appreciate the Abhidhamma the way I have stated, these people > appreciate the Suttas as well. It is those who insist on the Suttas and > reject the Abhidhamma who have a problem with interpretation. The fact > that you see the two giving different messages is due to not > understanding the Buddha's teachings as it should be understood. Ph: As I said, I don't reject Abhidhamma. I don't undestand some things in your guys approach to the Suttanta, saying that every sutta is about understanding of presently arisen realities or whatever. No, that really can't be right, sorry. Again, studying AN would bring you across many suttas which you would have to think otherwise. But you guys might possibly be right, I don't want to shut the door on that possibility, as I have said quite often here. I don't want to shut the door on the possibility of coming back to seeing things as you guys do. Oh, dear Sukin, I always get pooped out half way through your posts. I am happy to write long rambling posts, but lack the diligence to bear down and read others posts that have been written with such good intent. I'm really sorry about that. No my extrication from this kind of thread is complete. Thanks for the time you put into writing to me. You're a good fellow. Metta, Phil #87312 From: "connie" Date: Sat Jun 21, 2008 5:53 am Subject: Sundries: DN33 1.1-5 nichiconn Dear Friends, This week's installment of the Sangiiti Sutta: CSCD 296. Eva.m me suta.m - eka.m samaya.m bhagavaa mallesu caarika.m caramaano mahataa bhikkhusa'nghena saddhi.m pa~ncamattehi bhikkhusatehi yena paavaa naama mallaana.m nagara.m tadavasari. Tatra suda.m bhagavaa paavaaya.m viharati cundassa kammaaraputtassa ambavane. Walshe DN 33.1.1 [iii 207] THUS HAVE I HEARD. Once the Lord was touring in the Malla country with a large company of about five hundred monks. Arrived at Paavaa, the Maallas' capital, he stayed in the mango-grove of Cunda the smith. *1012 Olds I HEAR TELL: Once Upon a Time, Bhagava, roaming around Malla-country with some 500 Bhikkhus, arrived at Pava the capital of the Mallas where he revisted Cunda the smith. RDs THUS HAVE I HEARD: -- [ 207 ]1.1 The Exalted One was once making a tour in the country of the Mallas,1 accompanied by a great company of the brethren, numbering about five hundred. And he arrived at Paavaa the Malla capital. There he resided in the mango-grove of Cunda the smith.2 CSCD Ubbhatakanavasandhaagaara.m 297. Tena kho pana samayena paaveyyakaana.m mallaana.m ubbhataka.m naama nava.m sandhaagaara.m [santhaagaara.m (sii. pii.), sa.n.thaagaara.m (syaa. ka.m.)] acirakaarita.m hoti anajjhaavu.t.tha.m [anajjhaavuttha.m (sii. syaa. pii. ka.)] sama.nena vaa braahma.nena vaa kenaci vaa manussabhuutena. Assosu.m kho paaveyyakaa mallaa - <>ti. Atha kho paaveyyakaa mallaa yena bhagavaa tenupasa'nkami.msu; upasa'nkamitvaa bhagavanta.m abhivaadetvaa ekamanta.m nisiidi.msu. Ekamanta.m nisinnaa kho paaveyyakaa mallaa bhagavanta.m etadavocu.m - <>ti. Adhivaasesi kho bhagavaa tu.nhiibhaavena. Walshe DN 33.1.2 Now at that time a new meeting-hall of the Mallas of Paavaa, called Ubbha.taka, *1013 had recently been built, and it had not yet been occupied by any ascetic or Brahmin, or indeed by any human being. Hearing that the Lord was staying in Cunda's mango-grove, the Mallas of Paavaa went to see him. Having saluted him, they sat down to one side and said: 'Lord, the Mallas of Paavaa have recently erected a new meeting-hall called Ubbha.taka, and it has not yet been occupied by any ascetic or Brahmin, or indeed by any human being. [iii 208] May the Blessed Lord be the first to use it! Should he do so, that would be for the lasting good and happiness of the Mallas of Paavaa.' And the Lord consented by silence. Olds At this time a new meeting hall had just been built and had not yet been formally used, and the Mallas of Pava thought that it would be an auspicious thing if it were to have first been used by the Bhagava, so they invited him to do so, and he consented. RDs Now at that time a new mote-hall of the Paavaa Mallas named Ubbha.taka3 had not long been built, and had not been occupied by recluse or brahmin or any human being whatever. And the Paavaa Mallas heard that the Exalted One on his tour had arrived with his following at Paavaa and was staying in Cunda's mango-grove. And they went to visit him, and saluting him sat down at one side. So seated they said to him: -- [ 208 ] 'Lord, a new mote-hall named Ubbha.taka has lately been built by us Mallas of Paavaa, and no recluse or brahmin or any human being whatever has yet occupied it. Let, lord, the Exalted One be the first to make use of it. That is has first been used by the Exalted One will be for the lasting good and happiness of the Paavaa Mallas.' The Exalted One by his silence assented. CSCD 298. Atha kho paaveyyakaa mallaa bhagavato adhivaasana.m viditvaa u.t.thaayaasanaa bhagavanta.m abhivaadetvaa padakkhi.na.m katvaa yena sandhaagaara.m tenupasa'nkami.msu; upasa'nkamitvaa sabbasanthari.m [sabbasanthari.m santhata.m (ka.)] sandhaagaara.m santharitvaa bhagavato aasanaani pa~n~naapetvaa udakama.nika.m pati.t.thapetvaa telapadiipa.m aaropetvaa yena bhagavaa tenupasa'nkami.msu; upasa'nkamitvaa bhagavanta.m abhivaadetvaa ekamanta.m a.t.tha.msu. Ekamanta.m .thitaa kho te paaveyyakaa mallaa bhagavanta.m etadavocu.m - <>ti. 299. Atha kho bhagavaa nivaasetvaa pattaciivaramaadaaya saddhi.m bhikkhusa'nghena yena sandhaagaara.m tenupasa'nkami; upasa'nkamitvaa paade pakkhaaletvaa sandhaagaara.m pavisitvaa majjhima.m thambha.m nissaaya puratthaabhimukho nisiidi. Bhikkhusa'nghopi kho paade pakkhaaletvaa sandhaagaara.m pavisitvaa pacchima.m bhitti.m nissaaya puratthaabhimukho nisiidi bhagavanta.myeva purakkhatvaa. Paaveyyakaapi kho mallaa paade pakkhaaletvaa sandhaagaara.m pavisitvaa puratthima.m bhitti.m nissaaya pacchimaabhimukhaa nisiidi.msu bhagavanta.myeva purakkhatvaa. Atha kho bhagavaa paaveyyake malle bahudeva ratti.m dhammiyaa kathaaya sandassetvaa samaadapetvaa samuttejetvaa sampaha.msetvaa uyyojesi - <>ti. <>ti kho paaveyyakaa mallaa bhagavato pa.tissutvaa u.t.thaayaasanaa bhagavanta.m abhivaadetvaa padakkhi.na.m katvaa pakkami.msu. Walshe DN 33.1.3 Noting his assent, the Mallas rose, saluted him, passed out to his right and went to the meeting-hall. They spread mats all round, arranged seats, put out a water-pot and an oil-lamp, and then, returning to the Lord, saluted him, sat down to one side and reported what they had done, saying: 'Whenever the Blessed Lord is ready.' DN 33.1.4 Then the Lord dressed, took his robe and bowl, and went to the meeting-hall with his monks. There he washed his feet, entered the hall and sat down against the central pillar, facing east. The monks, having washed their feet, entered the hall and sat down along the western wall facing east, [iii 209] with the Lord in front of them. The Paavaa Mallas washed their feet, entered the hall, and sat down along the eastern wall facing west, with the Lord in front of them. Then the Lord spoke to the Mallas on Dhamma til far into the night, instructing, inspiring, firing and delighting them. Then he dismissed them, saying: 'Vaase.t.thas, *1014 the night has passed away. *1015 Now do as you think fit.' 'Very good, Lord', replied the Mallas. And they got up, saluted the Lord, and went out, passing him by on the right. Olds Then the Malas prepared the hall by spreading it with carpets and seats and water for washing the feet, and when the hall had been properly prepared they informed the Lucky Man, who prepared his bowl and robes and, with that large company of Bhikkhus, went to the newly built and prepared meeting hall. Then, after washing his feet, Bhaggava sat down next to the center pole, facing East. The Bhikkhus arranged themselves with their backs to the western wall, facing east, behind Bhagava. The Mallas of Pava sat down with their backs to the Eastern wall, facing West, Bhagava and the Bhikkhus. Then Bhagava instructed and inspired the Mallas of Pava with dhamma talk, and when the night was far gone, he indicated to them that they should take leave. RDs When they marked his assent, they rose and saluted him, passing round by his right, and went to the mote-hall. They spread the whole hall with carpets, arranged seats, put a bowl of water ready, hung up an oil lamp, and returned to the Exalted One. Saluting him and standing at one side they said: 'The whole mote-hall, lord, is spread with carpets, seats are arranged, a bowl of water has been placed ready, a lamp is hung up. And now, lord, whenever the Exalted One deems the time is fit. . . .' [ 209 ] Then the Exalted One dressed himself and taking bowl and robe he went with the company of brethren to the mote-hall. On arriving he bathed his feet, and entered the hall, and took his seat facing the east, leaning against the central pillar. The brethren also bathed their feetiii and entered the hall ranging themselves against the western wall and facing the east, behind the Exalted One. The Paavaa Mallas also bathed their feet and entered the hall, ranging themselves against the eastern wall and facing the west with the Exalted One before them. Then the Exalted One far into the night discoursed on the doctrine to the Paavaa Mallas, instrucing, enlightening, inciting and inspiring them.4 And then he dismissed them saying: 'Lovely, Vaase.t.thas,5 is the night. Do ye deem it time?' 'We do, lord,' responded the Paavaa Mallas. And rising they saluted the Exalted One by the right and departed.iv CSCD 300. Atha kho bhagavaa acirapakkantesu paaveyyakesu mallesu tu.nhiibhuuta.m tu.nhiibhuuta.m bhikkhusa.mgha.m anuviloketvaa aayasmanta.m saariputta.m aamantesi - <>ti [aayameyyaamiiti (syaa. ka.m.)]. <>ti kho aayasmaa saariputto bhagavato paccassosi. Atha kho bhagavaa catuggu.na.m sa'nghaa.ti.m pa~n~napetvaa dakkhi.nena passena siihaseyya.m kappesi paade paada.m accaadhaaya, sato sampajaano u.t.thaanasa~n~na.m manasi karitvaa. Walshe 1.5 As soon as the Mallas had gone the Lord, surveying the monks sitting silently all about, said to the Venerable Saariputta: 'The monks are free from sloth-and-torpor, *1016 Saariputta. You think of a discourse on Dhamma to give to them. My back aches, I want to stretch it.' 'Very good, Lord', replied Saariputta. Then the Lord, having folded his robe in four, lay down on his right side in the lion-posture, *1017 with one foot on the other, mindful and clearly aware, and bearing in mind the time to arise. Olds After that, noticing that the company of Bhikkhus was especially alert, he arranged his robes, assumed the lion posture, and instructed Sariputta to discourse on Dhamma especially for the Bhikkhus. And this is the talk, so we are told, given at that time by Sariputta: RDs And presently the Exalted One, surveying the company of brethren wrapped in silence wherever they sat,6 called to the venerable Saariputta: 'There is an absence, Saariputta, of sloth and torpor in the company of brethren. Let a religious discourse occur to thee, My back is aching, I will stretch it.' === Looking forward to the discussion, connie / Scott #87313 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 21, 2008 6:29 am Subject: Re:stories. [dsg] Vism.XVII,270 nilovg Dear Mike, Op 20-jun-2008, om 22:38 heeft m. nease het volgende geschreven: > This is the way leading to ugliness: to be ill-tempered & easily > > upset; even when lightly criticized, to grow offended, provoked, > > malicious, & resentful; to show annoyance, aversion, & bitterness.:: > > I resemble that! Thanks for this good reminder (and caveat). ------- N: A good reminder for all of us. Mike, you really apply the texts to daily life. I think of another quote you used: connie wrote: > 'Affected by pleasure and pain in the village or wilderness, > you should certainly not consider it as due to oneself or another. > Contacts affect one with cleaving as condition, > How could contacts affect one without cleaving?' I am not thinking now of the arahat, but of someone who begins to develop insight. One comes to understand that oneself or another is not important. As soon as we think: he and me there is conceit and this can condition dosa: why did he do this to me. I read Scot's post in this way: it was not important that he used the name James, it was merely an example how cittas work, how there is thinking going on and on, elaborating stories, and so well written. Really, the persons involved were no longer important. Very good examples these days. Mike, let us think of more! Nina. #87314 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jun 21, 2008 2:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XVII,270 upasaka_howard Hi, Herman (and Robert) - In a message dated 6/20/2008 10:47:41 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, hhofmeister@... writes: Hi Tep, 2008/6/20 Tep : > Hi Herman (Howard, Robert K), - > > Same old argument, isn't? A simple and right answer is given below. > ............... > > T: What is reborn is not an atta, according to the Buddha. The > ignorance, volitional formations, rebirth-linking citta and becoming > are all anatta. > > Listen Herman. Not only atta, anatta, volitional formations, kamma > and rebirth are standard teachings of the Lord Buddha, but also are > the Four Noble Truths and Dependent Origination. > What do you think is the connection, if any, between The Four Noble Truths (especially the EightFold Noble Path) and Dependent Origination. Cheers Herman ================================== Here are some thoughts of mine that come to mind on this: What is additional in the 4NT's is the explicit path of practice - the 4th truth/fact, and also more details as to what falls under dukkha. Also, while the 3rd NT is that there exists the safe harbor of nibbana, DO is more concerned with bodhi, the realization of nibbana, than nibbana itself. What is additional in the 12-fold cycle of dependent origination are the *details* involved in the 2nd NT, very particularly laying out the exact manner in which suffering is conditioned in steps by tanha (and avijja and upadana), and providing the corresponding details and effect of the unraveling that chain of conditionality. Also, DO says more about avijja, including its arising - the chain of DO being circular rather than linear. One more thing in DO, at least in some of the formulations, that is not explicitly present in the 4NT is the general principle of conditionality. Both DO and 4NT's pertain to the arising and cessation of dukkha. With metta, Howard #87315 From: "connie" Date: Sat Jun 21, 2008 6:58 am Subject: Re: Sangiiti Corner nichiconn Dear Nina, Scott, All, I'm cringing a bit about the length of the first installment post, but what's done is done. For anyone who might like to have the discussion / study materials in advance of the presentations for whatever reasons, DSG Files section now has a Sangiiti Study Corner folder with two Word doc files in it. One has the English sutta translations along with the paa.li; the other is paa.li only and has the sutta, a.t.thakatha and tiika. Please let me know if there is a problem downloading them or anything. peace, connie #87316 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jun 21, 2008 3:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: response to hate mail etc - revised and corrected edition upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 6/21/2008 2:29:54 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi Dieter, Sorry for the delay in sending this reply. I have just now deleted most of it. It didn't stand the test of time. :-) ========================= Er, there's only now, Ken, isn't that so? ;-) With metta, Howard #87317 From: "Larry" Date: Sat Jun 21, 2008 7:53 am Subject: Re: akusala cetasika - ditthi and vicikiccha lbidd2 Hi Lukas, I can answer your questions on view (ditthi) with my view. Lukas: "What is the charakteristic of ditthi and vicikiccha?" Larry: Ditthi is view. It is a perception (sa~n~naa) made into a principle. Something that is riggedly always true. There is always clinging with view. Vicikiccha is doubt. Doubt doubts the view because it sees things that don't fit. We also cling to doubts. Lukas: Is it vicikiccha a doubt? and ditthi a conception? Larry: Concepts are words. We often, but not always, express views and doubts with words. Lukas: Always when I was sitting i thought that it is my practise and I am doing something, I am more calm or I observe something. But now I think that was only conception. Was it ditthi cetasika? There is only nama and rupa. Larry: This "I am doing something" sounds more like vipalassa (wrong perceptions). Views are more philosophical. But in your belief in an "I" there is a very powerful self-view. Recognizing calm and clear seeing is insight (pa~n~naa). Recognizing views and doubts is also insight. Lukas: How often ditthi arise? Larry: How often do you think about yourself? Lukas: What is vicikiccha? Is it this moment of confusion, not knowing, doubts? What is a diference of vicikiccha and ditthi? Larry: Not knowing is ignorance (avijjaa or moha). Doubt is near certainty that a view is wrong. When certainty arises, doubt becomes view. Ignorance arises with both doubt and view. Lukas: When they arise I usually name it and trying to see? Considering that they arise. Larry: Good. That's the practice. But keep to the middle way, not too tight, not too loose. Lukas: Is the moment of seeing the same important as moment of thinking? Larry: After a while you will see that everything is in the moment of seeing. Larry #87318 From: "connie" Date: Sat Jun 21, 2008 8:34 am Subject: Sundries: DN33 1.1-5 nichiconn Dear Friends, The longest of the translators' footnotes to this introductory section dealt with a kind of historical consideration that doesn't hold much fascination for me. I get caught up in thinking about the words beginning so many suttas: < Eva.m me suta.m - eka.m samaya.m >. The Udaana Commentary goes to great lengths in discussing these phrases. I just quote [19] << Herein, the word samaya: "Is seen with respect to conjunction, moment, time, collection, root-cause, view, acquisition, abandoning and piercing. >> Already, the Master has passed & this is now the present of the Elder's we share. It's all too easy to lose track of the urgency here; the whole of our lives becomes just another past-time. May we all learn to 'read the suttas with our lives'. peace, connie #87319 From: "glenjohnann" Date: Sat Jun 21, 2008 9:30 am Subject: Re: Sundries glenjohnann Sarah What a lovely and useful post. I especially like your references to patience and to how we all live thinking of people and things most of the time. With understanding there is more likelihood that moments of thinking in terms of Dhammas will arise, albeit they are still thinking. Ann --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Scott & all, > > Thank you for sharing all your reflections so openly. As you know, I see the understanding now of present dhammas as being the real 'break' in this weary cycle. I was listening to a recording this morning about how we spend our lives pursuing various attachments all day, every day, forgetting about how all conditioned dhammas are so impermanent, so very worthless. > > I was struck when reading the epilogue to the Perfections (which Connie posted) about how "discriminating thoughts of oneself and others (are defilements) of the perfection of patience". This of course was from the comy. to the Cariya Pitaka. Like you, I've always been interested in people and characters and as you know, also share a background in psychology. What we learn, of course, in the Abhidhamma, is that characters are momenetary and actually that we're all caritas (characters). So for all of us, there are lobha-types, dosa-types, moha-types and so on. We all crave pleasant feelings, we all wallow in the mud in ignorance. For all of us, we get lost in ideas of people and things, forgetting entirely that the only realities are seeing, visible object, thinking and so on. > > Appreciating that it's like this for everyone can be a condition for metta, compassion and patience. I think it really is the understanding which leads to more such patience, more of an understanding person and less obsession with the 'discriminating thoughts of oneself and others', less conceit, less annoyance with how others behave. > > Sometimes too, we see how others are treated patiently, but we forget about the patience that has been shown to us over the years by family and friends. Yes, people sometimes refer to the patience it seems some of us show here, but for me, I think with gratitude of how much patience has been shown to me and others by K.Sujin and by other friends, so perhaps it's easier. Also, the more we appreciate about conditioned dhammas, the easier to accept that everyone has their own way, their own style and we really cannot manage the world! > > So,in short, rather than trying to work out others' motives, I prefer to just discuss the Dhamma, see the opportunities for metta and other kusala and not bring about unnecessary distress to myself by unnecessary speculation. I also believe that anyone who hangs in here for long has, at heart, a sincere interest in understanding the teachings better. Such friends in life are few. [Perhaps it's easier for me to say this, having met many participants here, including James & Herman.] > > I also was just thinking of Phil's point about associating with good friends. Of course, in the ultimate sense, association with the wise can only ever be at moments of right understanding. Yes, it takes wisdom and courage to see that the path always comes back to the citta now. When we try to assist (as you're doing with your series), better not to have expectations or mind how anyone responds or not. That way, detachment is developed and we're less and less enslaved to praise and blame and the other worldly conditions. > > I'm so very tempted to write nice comments about the trials and tribulations of single parent-hood and how great you're doing and so on, but really, at moments of right understanding, there's no burn- out, no stress, no annoyance with others. There's hiri and ottappa 'guarding' the kusala which is light and calm too. There's also viriya (effort), courage to persevere with kusala, rather than becoming down-hearted. > > I'll be appreciating the series I know. > > Thank you again for all your support and encouragement to the rest of us, Scott. I do hope you, Connie and everyone else will help Nina and other friends during the next week or so when I doubt I'll be able to post. Remember, with metta, there's no disturbance:-). > > As for the 'occasional' shoe-droppers, metta and consideration too! > > Metta, > > Sarah > p.s signing off now..... > ======= > #87320 From: Dieter Möller Date: Sat Jun 21, 2008 10:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: response to hate mail etc - revised and corrected edition moellerdieter Hi Ken , you wrote: 'Sorry for the delay in sending this reply. I have just now deleted most of it. It didn't stand the test of time. :-) D:no problem at all .. some answers grow in quality by taking time .. ;-) Ken: I think you must be aware of the Abhidhamma explanation of the Eightfold Path. Therefore, I don't need to tell you there is no self (no conventional entity) that travels it. The path is just a fleeting moment of namas and rupas in which the cetasika-namas called Path Factors perform their supramundane functions. D: I think for a fruitful discussion we both need to keep the conventional and the ultimate perspective in mind. The former applies to those in training to become a Noble One, the latter treats the truth from the view/understanding of those having reached the level ( obviously Abhidhamma was proclaimed to those far advanced..) In order that the cetasikas can perform their functions wholesome for the path factors, the mind needs (the 3fold N.P.) training . Nina used once the expression 'habitual tendencies' for cetasika . Our habit (pls compare with persona ) conditioned by ignorant kamma forces /will , ie. avijja - sankhara- .. is just this procedure as explained in the chain of D.O. and our attachment just that what identifies with self: that I am, that is mine etc.. Ken:Essentially the same thing is happening now. There is no self; there are just momentary namas and rupas performing their mundane functions. D: this may be so in full awareness of the here and now ( pls compare with the Zen school approach) ..but our truth is that such moments of awareness are brief and we are back to normal mundane . Lasting it will be only when body and mind are liberated by full detachment Ken: My point is: when we bear this in mind, there can't possibly be any desire for a future state can there? Even a future state of *enlightenment* (magga-citta) can't possibly be an object of longing or desire. Not while we are bearing in mind the fact that there are only fleeting namas and rupas (no self that can go on to become enlightened etc.). So I wonder why there are so many differences in our respective understandings of the texts. What is causing these differences? D: it is said that suffering conditions faith .. the point of suffering and its desire for its cessation is the whole issue of the Buddha Dhamma . Without understanding /knowing suffering , the teaching at best satisfies intellectual curiosity of a philosophy. I alway found it useful to recall that Buddhism in a nutshell is the 4 Noble Truths, all suttas, all vinaya and abhidhamma are not more than support/guidance to construct one's raft... Ken: (D: > Is satipatthana defined by' right understanding of conditioned reality 'based on an Abh. source or your conclusion?) I think it is in more or less every paragraph of every page of the Tipitaka, isn't it? The five khandhas (conditioned reality) are to be seen as anicca, dukkha and anatta. What could be more ubiquitous than that? D: it is not that I disagree .. but its compactness which let me ask for the source.. Ken: We read the same texts, but we understand them differently. Why is that? Is it because we don't agree on what I wrote above - about there being only namas and rupas (nothing worth clinging to; nothing worth longing to have in the future)? D: I would be glad to have managed to explain some of the differences. That nothing is worth clinging too is certainly common ground. Though much has to be done, the guidance of the training to be followed , striving for the unattained .. but as I mentioned : without one's recognition of suffering no faith , no longing/ hope .. and so no real need to end suffering by the proclaimed path. with Metta Dieter #87321 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jun 21, 2008 7:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: response to hate mail etc - revised and corrected edition upasaka_howard Hi again, Ken (and Dieter) - In a message dated 6/21/2008 2:29:54 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi Dieter, Sorry for the delay in sending this reply. I have just now deleted most of it. It didn't stand the test of time. :-) -------------------- D: Right understanding is the forerunner of the different aspects of the 8fold Noble Path. Because of right understanding/view ,there is right thought and so there is right speech and so there is right action and so there is right livehood etc. , i.e. the Noble Path leading to the cessation of suffering opens for the Noble Ones.. but of course there is the need of aproaching '..developing by training these aspects ,e.g. by contemplation of the 4 foundations of mindfulness -------------------- I think you must be aware of the Abhidhamma explanation of the Eightfold Path. Therefore, I don't need to tell you there is no self (no conventional entity) that travels it. The path is just a fleeting moment of namas and rupas in which the cetasika-namas called Path Factors perform their supramundane functions. Essentially the same thing is happening now. There is no self; there are just momentary namas and rupas performing their mundane functions. My point is: when we bear this in mind, there can't possibly be any desire for a future state can there? Even a future state of *enlightenment* (magga-citta) can't possibly be an object of longing or desire. Not while we are bearing in mind the fact that there are only fleeting namas and rupas (no self that can go on to become enlightened etc.). ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: I disagree with this, Ken. As I see it, regardless of what we "bear in mind," future states of particular sorts are desired all the time. Our intellectual views, even when correct and consistently held onto, do not preclude desiring. What there is on the surface of mind, our "views," will not preclude desire. Only uprooting of defilement at the deepest levels of mentality will do so. It is, of course, good and useful and *important* to hold right views, but they alone won't do the trick. ------------------------------------------------------ So I wonder why there are so many differences in our respective understandings of the texts. What is causing these differences? ------------- D: > Is satipatthana defined by' right understanding of conditioned reality 'based on an Abh. source or your conclusion? ------------- I think it is in more or less every paragraph of every page of the Tipitaka, isn't it? The five khandhas (conditioned reality) are to be seen as anicca, dukkha and anatta. What could be more ubiquitous than that? ------------------------ D: > I think that the common understanding of satipatthana is correctly expressed by Nayantiloka: " the 4 'foundations of mindfulness', lit. 'awarenesses of mindfulness' (sati-upaá¹­á¹­hÄ?na), are: contemplation of body, feeling, mind and mind-objects. - -------------------------- We read the same texts, but we understand them differently. Why is that? Is it because we don't agree on what I wrote above - about there being only namas and rupas (nothing worth clinging to; nothing worth longing to have in the future)? -------------------------------------------- Howard: Belief will certainly affect interpretation - there's no doubt of that, IMO. --------------------------------------------- Ken H ======================= With metta, Howard #87322 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 21, 2008 11:15 am Subject: Metta, Ch 9, no 1. nilovg Dear friends, Chapter 9. Mettå: the foundation of the world The Buddha said that beings are owners of their deeds, heirs to their deeds, that kamma is the womb from which they are born, that their deeds are their relatives. To them their deeds come home again and whatsoever deeds they do, be they good or evil, of those deeds they receive the results. Everybody is the owner of his deeds, he possesses the kamma he has performed. People cannot exchange their kammas. Other kinds of possessions do not really belong to us, they can be destroyed or stolen. The kamma we have performed ourselves, be it kusala kamma or akusala kamma, cannot be stolen or damaged by fire, wind or sun. There is no possession which can be kept as safely as kamma, because kamma is accumulated from moment to moment, since cittas arise and fall away in succession. When kamma has been performed it can cause the arising of vipåka (result) for the person who committed it, if there are the right conditions for kamma to produce result. The person who has performed kamma will receive its result accordingly, since kamma is the “womb”, it can condition rebirth in a happy plane or in an unhappy plane. When we are born, kamma is a “relative” (kinsman) to us, we are dependant on our kamma [1]. When there are conditions for akusala kamma to produce its result, then akusala kamma is our “relative”: there is the arising of unpleasant experiences and misfortunes, of which the immediate occasion can even be our circle of relatives and friends, or other people we are acquainted with. When kusala kamma has the opportunity to produce its result, the opposite happens, and thus we can say that each person has kamma as his relative, that he is dependant on his kamma. -------- footnote 1: We have a bond, a link with former kamma, comparable in strength to family ties. We are at present not the same person as the being who committed kamma in a former life. However, our former lives condition the present life. Since each citta is succeeded by the next citta, all defilements and good qualities, akusala kamma and kusala kamma are accumulated from moment to moment, from life to life. -------- NIna. #87323 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 21, 2008 11:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sangiiti Corner nilovg Dear Connie, don't worry, I see what I can select as to co, but not much, because I cannot neglect my twice a week Vis. parts Tiika, and this takes up time. My Co. reading began at the Ones, etc. Watch out the Twos: nama and rupa, very short, but we have to elaborate. Your ending sentence is good: May we all learn to 'read the suttas with our lives'. Samaya is also very deep and actual, the Atthasaalini has a great part on it, I think it is great and can quote it again. Stringing pearls at a lightning flash, and that goes very slowly, how many flashes are there and so short. So rare is the arising of kusala with pa~n~naa. I briefly looked at the intro, duirng morning coffee or evening tea, where else do I get the time. I am busy typing out Pilgrimage in Sri Lanka, since this was never on the net. I look later on at the files. Nina. Op 21-jun-2008, om 15:58 heeft connie het volgende geschreven: > I'm cringing a bit about the length of the first installment post, > but what's done is done. #87324 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 21, 2008 11:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Metta. response to hate mail etc - nilovg Hi Howard, Op 21-jun-2008, om 20:02 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Howard: > Belief will certainly affect interpretation - there's no doubt of > that, > IMO. ------- N: My mail to you now is no answer to this, but I thought of you. In Metta Kh Sujin wrote something of interest: The last sentence, it is what you said before more or less about other people influencing what we experience, the social aspect. Nina. #87325 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jun 21, 2008 7:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Metta. response to hate mail etc - upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 6/21/2008 2:39:54 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Op 21-jun-2008, om 20:02 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Howard: > Belief will certainly affect interpretation - there's no doubt of > that, > IMO. ------- N: My mail to you now is no answer to this, but I thought of you. In Metta Kh Sujin wrote something of interest: The last sentence, it is what you said before more or less about other people influencing what we experience, the social aspect. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Yes. :-) Thank you, Nina! ------------------------------------------------ Nina. ====================== With metta, Howard #87326 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 21, 2008 11:58 am Subject: Re: Phil: [dsg] Re: Overview of KS 3: Her Faulty Teaching nilovg Dear Herman, thanks for your thoughts anyway, although we do not think along the same lines. I will not try to make you change your outlook :-) The mails are getting over my head. Nina. Op 21-jun-2008, om 4:13 heeft Herman Hofman het volgende geschreven: > The "just understand approach": this is not an easy way out. It takes > > courage and detachment to understand whatever arises now. Also > > patience, patience if you detect a lot of akusala. You can > understand > > that it is conditioned by the latent tendencies, by past > > accumulations. > > Understanding is just what is absent when I say that whatever I do now > is conditioned by what I have done in the past. #87327 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jun 21, 2008 10:36 am Subject: Re: Phil: [dsg] Re: Overview of KS 3: Her Faulty Teaching upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Herman) - In a message dated 6/21/2008 2:58:34 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Dear Herman, thanks for your thoughts anyway, although we do not think along the same lines. I will not try to make you change your outlook :-) The mails are getting over my head. Nina. Op 21-jun-2008, om 4:13 heeft Herman Hofman het volgende geschreven: > The "just understand approach": this is not an easy way out. It takes > > courage and detachment to understand whatever arises now. Also > > patience, patience if you detect a lot of akusala. You can > understand > > that it is conditioned by the latent tendencies, by past > > accumulations. > > Understanding is just what is absent when I say that whatever I do now > is conditioned by what I have done in the past. ============================== I'm guessing that what Herman means by there being no (real) understanding [when (merely) reciting that statement] is that the statement is a general truism that is lacking in anything specific to the current state, and, moreover, if one just recites that statement as a mantra every time an unwholesome state arises, it replaces proper and useful consideration of the state by mere recitation of a verbal formula. Also, just saying to oneself that current akusala "is conditioned by the latent tendencies, by past accumulations" can easily become a ritualized excusing of oneself and letting oneself "off the hook." If that is what Herman means, I agree with him. Much, much more is needed - in particular, there is needed the careful examination of the specific state, the effort to not feed that unwholesome and embellish it, and the intention to cut short any future such arisings. Just saying to oneself that current akusala "is conditioned by the latent tendencies, by past accumulations" can easily become an unproductive, ritualized excusing of oneself and letting oneself "off the hook." With metta, Howard #87328 From: "Alex" Date: Sat Jun 21, 2008 3:17 pm Subject: Re: Jhana Meditation. Again. truth_aerator Hi Jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Alex > > > It is necessery for Anagami stage and full Awakening. In fact if we > > take some phrases literally, a stream-enterer possess the N8P which > > includes 4 Jhanas. > > OK, just so that we're both clear on what's being discussed: your > understanding is that jhana (i.e., jhana of samatha bhavana) is a > necessary prerequisite to the attainment of Anagami stage of > enlightenment, but not to any lower stages of enlightenment (nor to > the development of insight per se, I presume). Is this a correct > statement of what you came in to say? >>>> In the suttas we have, the Buddha has stressed Jhana for Anag/Arh stage. It does appear that *at least* a momentary Jhana (up to 4th or higher) happens right before one becomes a stream-enterer. Lets not forget the difference between attaining and mastering Jhana. A sotapanna CAN reach Jhana, but the mastery of Jhana is required for Anag and Arh levels. > > But Jhana must be cultivated. Its not a little-child passive stage. > > SOmetimes active steps to remove hindrances must be present. > > Well, the actual development of samatha is an issue in itself, so > perhaps we can come back to this later. > It involves a degree of panna. > > Without removing (at least temporary) the 5 hindrances, you can't > > develop supramundane insight to any serious degree. In fact > > consciously removing the 5 hindrances themselves at will is an > > insight-in-action of a certain level. > > But what you say here is not something found in MN52, the sutta you > quoted to support your assertion that jhana is a necessary > prerequisite to the attainment of anagami stage of enlightenment. > > As I pointed out, MN52 refers to jhana consciousness being seen as > "fabricated & intended. ... inconstant & subject to cessation", > followed by the reaching of the ending of the mental fermentations. > This appears to be a standard description of insight into presently > arisen dhammas. > Here we have attainment + mastery of Jhana PLUS insight based on it. Insight (based on Jhana) is fully matured at Arh stage. > Perhaps you have other sutta passages that relate more directly to the point about jhana as a prerequisite to the attainment of enlightenment at the stage of anagami? > > Jon > In one of the AN suttas, there is the passage that Sotapanna perfects Sila, Anag perfects Samadhi, Arh perfects Panna. As you know, Anagamis are reborn in 4th Rupa Jhana plane. Requirements for that is 4th Jhana. Furthermore in many suttas (mn64) when Jhanas + Panna are mentioned, the promised result is either Arh or Anag (if some clinging is present). (AN 3.85 & 9.12) In some Udana suttas a person become a Sotapanna while listening to a sutta and getting to momentary Jhanic (or close to that) level. However it is an open questions re: how much PREVIOUS Jhanic development there was in this or previous lives. Best wishes, Alex #87329 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Jun 21, 2008 4:39 pm Subject: Re: Sangiiti Corner scottduncan2 Dear connie, Regarding: c: "I'm cringing a bit about the length of the first installment post, but what's done is done..." Scott: I think its fine since this is introductory and narrative. We can proceed with much smaller sections starting next time, methinks. Sincerely, Scott. #87330 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Sat Jun 21, 2008 6:28 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XVII,270 egberdina Hi Tep, 2008/6/21 Tep : > Dear Herman, - > > Whenever you change the subject, can I assume that you are satisfied > with my answer, or not? ;-)) > > ................. >> >> What do you think is the connection, if any, between The Four Noble >> Truths (especially the EightFold Noble Path) and Dependent >> Origination. >> Yes , you can certainly assume that. And the same for if there is no reply. I vaguely recall that the guidelines ask that people do not just send acknowledgments or agreements. The reason for my next question, which you thought was changing the subject, was that I got two posts from you within 1 minute of each other. The first mentioned only the Four Noble Truths, and the second one included Dependent Origination. This fact prompted quite some reflection on the nature of the 4 NT and especially the 8FNP, and I want to thank you for prompting that reflection. > > T: I remember discussing this exact subject with the venerable > Vimaralamsi back in 2005 or 2006. The connection is that the 1st, 2nd > and 3rd Truths are seen in the Dependent Origination, not the 4th. > That has been my understanding. Disagree or not? > I agree with you. Thanks again, Tep. Herman #87331 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Sat Jun 21, 2008 6:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XVII,270 egberdina Hi Howard, 2008/6/21 : > >> > > What do you think is the connection, if any, between The Four Noble > Truths (especially the EightFold Noble Path) and Dependent > Origination. > > ================================== > Here are some thoughts of mine that come to mind on this: > What is additional in the 4NT's is the explicit path of practice - the > 4th truth/fact, and also more details as to what falls under dukkha. Also, > while the 3rd NT is that there exists the safe harbor of nibbana, DO is more > concerned with bodhi, the realization of nibbana, than nibbana itself. > What is additional in the 12-fold cycle of dependent origination are the > *details* involved in the 2nd NT, very particularly laying out the exact > manner in which suffering is conditioned in steps by tanha (and avijja and > upadana), and providing the corresponding details and effect of the unraveling > that chain of conditionality. Also, DO says more about avijja, including its > arising - the chain of DO being circular rather than linear. One more thing in > DO, at least in some of the formulations, that is not explicitly present in > the 4NT is the general principle of conditionality. > Both DO and 4NT's pertain to the arising and cessation of dukkha. Thank you very much for your considerations. As with Tep, you may safely assume that if I do not reply, it is because I agree. Cheers Herman #87332 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat Jun 21, 2008 6:45 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: response to hate mail etc - revised and corrected edition kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > > > Hi, Ken - > > In a message dated 6/21/2008 2:29:54 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > kenhowardau@... writes: > > Hi Dieter, > > Sorry for the delay in sending this reply. I have just now deleted > most of it. It didn't stand the test of time. :-) > > > ========================= > Er, there's only now, Ken, isn't that so? ;-) > Yes, that is so, and it makes emailing very difficult. With a bit of practice I might be able to write one in a trillionth of a second, but then there's that "send" button to click on and it all gets too hard. :-) Ken H #87333 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jun 21, 2008 2:57 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: response to hate mail etc - revised and corrected edition upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 6/21/2008 9:45:28 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: > Hi, Ken - > > In a message dated 6/21/2008 2:29:54 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > kenhowardau@... writes: > > Hi Dieter, > > Sorry for the delay in sending this reply. I have just now deleted > most of it. It didn't stand the test of time. :-) > > > ========================= > Er, there's only now, Ken, isn't that so? ;-) > Yes, that is so, and it makes emailing very difficult. With a bit of practice I might be able to write one in a trillionth of a second, but then there's that "send" button to click on and it all gets too hard. :-) ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Great! :-) A good-humored reply is always a delight! --------------------------------------------------- Ken H ========================== With metta, Howard #87334 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Sat Jun 21, 2008 7:00 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sundries: DN33 1.1-5 egberdina Hi connie and (Scott), 2008/6/22 connie : > > Dear Friends, > > The longest of the translators' footnotes to this introductory section dealt with a kind of historical consideration that doesn't hold much fascination for me. I get caught up in thinking about the words beginning so many suttas: < Eva.m me suta.m - eka.m samaya.m >. The Udaana Commentary goes to great lengths in discussing these phrases. I just quote [19] << Herein, the word samaya: "Is seen with respect to conjunction, moment, time, collection, root-cause, view, acquisition, abandoning and piercing. >> Already, the Master has passed & this is now the present of the Elder's we share. It's all too easy to lose track of the urgency here; the whole of our lives becomes just another past-time. May we all learn to 'read the suttas with our lives'. > Late last night (early this morning actually) I carefully read your first installment, and marked it for reply, which I am doing now. I now notice that you have sent this email since then, and I ask you to please accept that I am not detracting from anything you say above. I chose to reply to this one and not the main installment only because it was shorter :-) BUT, sincerely, I LOVE THESE SUTTAS. These really are daily life accounts of people from 2500 years ago. It is vitally important, to me, that the gist of what is taught in them not be divorced from the setting in which it was taught. It is so important to know what people believed, and how they behaved towards one another, in order to understand why a particular teaching was delivered there and then. It fascinates me to see how much emphasis is given to the cultural practices, the rites and rituals of daily life. And how sobering that the self-Awakened One had back-aches. I think it is very useful to have the three translations side by side as you have them, it becomes clear that some translators are happy to summarise at one time, and gloss over certain things at other times. Thank you and Scott for all your efforts. Cheers Herman #87335 From: "connie" Date: Sat Jun 21, 2008 7:55 pm Subject: Re: Sangiiti Corner nichiconn Dear Nina, I like to thank you. I'm encouraged to look more at the Cy and SubCy myself now when I think "Nina's going to"... anything you give us from them will be wonderful. Like a chance meeting, say, on a Pilgimage in Sri Lanka. You give the world so much. How rare. The Twos - I thought I might post from Expositor when we get there. 'Suttanta Couplets in the Maatikaa' (ch.iii in Arisings of Consc.) and 'Suttanta Couplets' (in Summary). But one step at a time. peace, connie ps. N: Stringing pearls at a lightning flash. C: I found your mule, too! Reading. And how happy I was when I found KS's birds' shadows in the books. #87336 From: "m. nease" Date: Sat Jun 21, 2008 7:59 pm Subject: Re: stories. [dsg] Vism.XVII,270 m_nease Hi Nina, Right you are IMHO. The least amount of aversion in any form is a red flag for delusion, even without thinking of 'them' or 'us'. If only the far more serious danger of attachment was so obviously unwholesome (who complains about pleasant feelings?). But of course without attachment (to their absence or opposite), how could contacts with concepts (such as offenses, rude people and so on) condition aversion? These aren't painful sense contacts such as burns or foul smells. So conceptual thinking isn't the problem at all--the problem is ta.nhaa. "Going beyond discursive thinking" etc. does absolutely nothing to eradicate the underlying problem (the second noble truth). At the very best--and that's VERY rare--basically unattainable for laypeople--it temporarily suppresses unpleasant feelings, and at its worst (far, far more common) strengthening conceit, inflexibility (amudutaa), delusion etc., etc. So it seems to me anyway, and this seems to me very consistent with the texts and my own experience. Really rambling here, Nina--sorry! mike #87337 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 21, 2008 11:27 pm Subject: Re: Phil: [dsg] Re: Overview of KS 3: Her Faulty Teaching nilovg Hi Howard and Herman, Op 21-jun-2008, om 23:36 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Just saying to oneself that current > akusala "is conditioned by the latent tendencies, by past > accumulations" can > easily become an unproductive, ritualized excusing of oneself and > letting > oneself "off the hook." ------- N: I fully agree. No saying to oneself, no excuses. It is a matter of developing understanding and having courage to face akusala with understanding. Nina. #87338 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 21, 2008 11:48 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sangiiti Corner nilovg Dear Connie, Op 22-jun-2008, om 4:55 heeft connie het volgende geschreven: > I thought I might post from Expositor when we get there. 'Suttanta > Couplets in the Maatikaa' (ch.iii in Arisings of Consc.) and > 'Suttanta Couplets' (in Summary). > But one step at a time. > -------- N: Good idea to also consult other texts. --------- > N: Stringing pearls at a lightning flash. > C: I found your mule, too! Reading. And how happy I was when I > found KS's birds' shadows in the books. ------- N: Where are the shadows, can't remember. Do not expect too much from me, I try my best, but I have to keep measure, otherwise Dr. James will worry about me, doing too much. Nina. #87339 From: "m. nease" Date: Sat Jun 21, 2008 11:51 pm Subject: Re: Phil: [dsg] Re: Overview of KS 3: Her Faulty Teaching m_nease Hi Nina, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > No saying to oneself, no excuses. It is a matter of > developing understanding and having courage to face akusala with > understanding. Agreed--and MISunderstanding with understanding. mike #87340 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 21, 2008 11:55 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sundries: DN33 1.1-5 nilovg Hi Herman, I like your post. Yes, fascinating. About backaches more later on, from the co. The Buddha was a human and had also to experience result of former kamma. Nina. Op 22-jun-2008, om 4:00 heeft Herman Hofman het volgende geschreven: > BUT, sincerely, I LOVE THESE SUTTAS. These really are daily life > accounts of people from 2500 years ago. It is vitally important, to > me, that the gist of what is taught in them not be divorced from the > setting in which it was taught. It is so important to know what people > believed, and how they behaved towards one another, in order to > understand why a particular teaching was delivered there and then. It > fascinates me to see how much emphasis is given to the cultural > practices, the rites and rituals of daily life. And how sobering that > the self-Awakened One had back-aches. #87341 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jun 22, 2008 12:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] akusala cetasika - ditthi and vicikiccha nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 21-jun-2008, om 7:10 heeft szmicio het volgende geschreven: > What is the charakteristic of ditthi and vicikiccha? ------- N: Rob K has a very easy access web where you can read and copy small parts of my Cetasikas: his web: Vipassana. you can look at the contects for each cetasika: http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html I shall quote now some parts of it. Di.t.thi: ....There are many kinds of wrong views and they are of different degrees. There kinds of wrong view are unwholesome courses of action, akusala kamma patha, through the mind, and these are capable of causing an unhappy rebirth. They are the following three views: 1) There is no result of kamma (natthika-ditthi) 2) There are no causes (in happening, ahetuka-ditthi) 3) There is no such thing as kamma ( akiriya-ditthi) There are many other kinds of wrong views and, although they are not akusala kamma patha, they are still dangerous. The scriptures often refer to the eternalistic view and to the annihilationisticview. Eternalism is the belief that there is a "self" who is permanent. .... There is personality belief, one has wrong view with regard to the five khandhas. There is wrong view with regard to namas such as seeing, hearing or thinking, and also with regard to rupas, such as hardness or visible object. One may take a nama such as seeing for self, and one may also take visible object for a person or a thing which exists. When we take things for self we do not see them as elements which can, one at a time, be experienced through the appropriate doorway. Visible object is only a kind of rupa which can be experienced through the eyesense, it is not a person or a thing, it falls away again. Sound is only a kind of rupa which can be experienced through the earsense, it is not a person or a thing. Each citta which arises experiences one object at a time through the appropriate doorway and then falls away, it is quite different from the preceding citta. Seeing only sees, it does not hear, it does not think.... > ----------- > Is it vicikiccha a doubt? and ditthi a conception? ------- vicikiccha: The reality of vicikiccha is not the same as what we mean by doubt in conventional language. Vicikiccha is not doubt about someone's name or about the weather. Vicikiccha is doubt about realities, about nama and rupa, about cause and result, about the four noble Truths, about the "Dependant Origination"... When there is doubt one wonders about realities: "Is it such or is it such?" one wonders, for example, whether a reality is permanent or impermanent, or whether the reality which appears now is nama or rupa. When there is doubt them is mental rigidity, there is not the wieldiness of mind which is necessary for the understanding of realities. Doubt is to be considered as a " danger for attainment"; when there is doubt it is impossible to apply oneself to mental development. Doubt is different from ignorance, moha, which does not know realities. But when there is doubt there is also moha which accompanies all akusala dhammas. Di.t.thi is not a concept, it is a reality, a cetasika. -------- > > Always when I was sitting i thought that it is my practise and I am > doing something , I am more calm or I observe something. But now I > think that was only conception. Was it ditthi cetasika? ------ N: Nobody else can tell, but lobha can arise many times, with di.t.thi or without it. You can find out whether there is clinging to self who is practising. ---------- > L: What is a diference of vicikiccha and ditthi? > > When they arise I usually name it and trying to see? Considering that > they arise. ------- N: First of all have more intellectual understanding of these cetasikas. In the beginning knowledge cannot be precise, and naming does not help, we may name the wrong ones. ------- > > L: Is the moment of seeing the same important as moment of thinking? ------- N: they are all namas and it is of no use to think of this one is more important than that one. They arise because of conditions and fall away immediately. What is impermanent cannot be so important. I think that you need more foundation knowledge and do not worry about practice. As Larry suggested, an idea of self can arise. It can easily creep in: my practice. Nina. #87342 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jun 22, 2008 1:30 am Subject: Metta, Ch 9, no 2. nilovg Dear friends, When we experience happiness or misery on account of visible object, sound, odour, flavour and tangible object, it seems that other people are the cause of such experiences. When we for example have been hurt or harmed by others, it seems that other people are the cause of this. However, could this really happen if there were no akusala kamma we performed ourselves which produces such result? When akusala kamma has the opportunity to produce result we will receive its result, even if there are no people around who could hurt us. We may, for example, wound ourselves with a knife, we may fall down, we may become ill, we may suffer from an inundation or a fire. Some people may believe that there is another person who could avenge himself and cause them to suffer from sickness and other misfortunes. They extend merit to that person out of fear of his retaliation. However, all this is a superstition. When we have performed kusala kamma we can extend merit to others who are able to appreciate our good deed, and this is a form of dåna, of generosity. It is beneficial to do this, because at such a moment the citta is accompanied by mettå. We think of the wellbeing of someone else, we give him the opportunity to have kusala citta with appreciation of our kusala. When somebody has “anumodana dåna”, appreciation of another person’s kusala, it is his kusala kamma. We all can rejoice in each others kusala, by anumodana dåna, and in this way benefit from the good deeds performed by someone else. However, we should not extend merit out of fear that there is someone who could avenge himself and cause misfortune. The development of mettå towards those we meet in this life is more beneficial than the extension of merit to an avenger we have never seen and whom we do not know. ******** Nina. #87343 From: "Tep" Date: Sun Jun 22, 2008 4:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XVII,270 dhammanusarin Hi Herman, - It is so easy to get an agreeable conversation from you. However, it takes quite a mental capability and open-minded attitude in order to understand both the Dhamma and another person's perspective ! >Herman: >I vaguely recall that the guidelines ask that people do not just send acknowledgments or agreements. T: I also recall something like : no "me too" kind of answer. Regards, Tep === #87344 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jun 22, 2008 1:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Metta, Ch 9, no 2. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 6/22/2008 4:30:33 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: When we experience happiness or misery on account of visible object, sound, odour, flavour and tangible object, it seems that other people are the cause of such experiences. When we for example have been hurt or harmed by others, it seems that other people are the cause of this. However, could this really happen if there were no akusala kamma we performed ourselves which produces such result? ============================== Our birth into this realm of experience, and the context into which we were born, had our kamma as condition, and that kamma thus, indirectly, was a condition for ALL that happens to us here. But such indirect conditioning aside, much of what happens to us is not due primarily to our prior intentions and actions, but to the actions of others. For example, one of the "cosmic principles" that the Buddha gave as causative of events for us was "nature," i.e., weather etc. Now, the considerable use of fossil fuels by people in the industrialized nations has, it is generally believed, affected the weather adversely, producing global warming and possibly leading to extreme storms and other weather phenomena that have injured and killed many in developing nations. So, the actions of the people in the industrial nations, have adversely affected other people via weather. There are also so many other simple, everyday examples of the actions of some people affecting others. In most of those cases, some kamma of the affected persons - if nothing else, kamma leading to the fact that they were present - was a factor, but often it is a minor factor, and the other conditions, including aggressive, aversive actions of other people, were essential. There is a danger, I believe, in relying on kamma to soft-pedal the import of the actions of others even to the point of excusing evil actions. Our kamma is, certainly, the single most predominant condition affecting our life, but that being said, it is important to not overstate its importance and underplay other types of conditioning. (When a mother of three is the hapless victim gunned down and crippled in a drive-by shooting, while her kamma likely had *some* (unknown and untraceable) input to the event, the primary evil action involved was that of the criminals, and, properly, she isn't sent to jail along with the shooters!) With metta, Howard #87345 From: "Phil" Date: Sun Jun 22, 2008 5:25 am Subject: Phil: [dsg] Re: Overview of KS 3: Her Faulty Teaching philofillet Hi Howard and all > Much, much more is needed - > in particular, there is needed the careful examination of the specific state, > the effort to not feed that unwholesome and embellish it, and the intention > to cut short any future such arisings. Just saying to oneself that current > akusala "is conditioned by the latent tendencies, by past accumulations" can > easily become an unproductive, ritualized excusing of oneself and letting > oneself "off the hook." > Yes, I think you're right, thought I'm sure people wouldn't say that they are "just saying to oneself" current akusala is conditioned by the latent tendencies etc, but rather that there is panna of some degree at work etc. Still, I know from experience when aware of akusala having arisen and defilements of the level of transgression at work that reflection on the conditionality of it, the latency of it etc doesn't do much good and can instead cause slackness with respect to stamping out the arisen akusala. Like me, I think you appreciate the very clear and foreceful simile the Buddha uses about stamping out the grassfire. There is really no doubt what that foreceful simile means. Reflecting on the conditionality of what has transpired, reflecting on the latent tendencies at work - yes, very helpful indeed, but I find it is afterwards that there is "room" for that. Not when one is dealing with the wildfire. There is no way to see into other's citta processes, so we know for ourselves and only by ourselves whether there is not at times a kind of slackness with respect to akusala, a sort of letting-it-run- on because one is, as you say, letting oneself off the hook by reflecing on conditionality. I know I have experienced that sort of thing often enough, still do, and will in the future. But I think there will be less of it as the energy that stamps out the wildfire gains momentum and is better able to take on the great accumulated energy of arisen akusala. Yes, the akusala is deeply and strongly accumulated, but the Buddha's teaching is a great and powerful condition towards wholesome resistance! Praise the Buddha! Metta, Phil #87346 From: "connie" Date: Sun Jun 22, 2008 7:16 am Subject: Re: Sangiiti Corner nichiconn Dear Nina, N: Where are the shadows, can't remember. C: I think I first saw them in the SPD & thought it was KS's own really striking imagery, but no - [Q. of K.Milinda, The Cutting off of Perplexity, 7th Division: II.7.5: Simultaneous Arising in Different Places {Miln. 82-3}]Nagasena asked: "What do you think, your majesty, if two birds fly in the sky and one sits in a high tree, and the other in a low tree; if these happen at the same time, the shadow of which one would appear on the ground first, and which one later?" So, for one thing, no intermediate state / bardo between the dying- and rebirth-consciousness involving 'new' name-and-form; but also I guess it's ok to say kamma is a shadow. And no! I don't want Dr James scowling at me. I'll try not to ask too much. peace, connie #87347 From: "connie" Date: Sun Jun 22, 2008 8:36 am Subject: Re: Overview of KS 3: Her Faulty Teaching nichiconn Dear Phil, Phil (to Howard): Like me, I think you appreciate the very clear and foreceful simile the Buddha uses about stamping out the grassfire. There is really no doubt what that foreceful simile means. Reflecting on the conditionality of what has transpired, reflecting on the latent tendencies at work - yes, very helpful indeed, but I find it is afterwards that there is "room" for that. Not when one is dealing with the wildfire. Connie (interrupting): Similes rule! Ok, they rock. Conditions rule. The wildfire's in the head? Anytime I hear myself say 'no doubt', the alarm is sounding. Some kindling: I believe in folklore to the exclusion of understanding it on that deeper level, that is living ordinarily... the perpetuation of the myth(s). There is a saying that if you want to know the future, you look to the present. I think also the past is beheld there. Our precious time. (exuse me) peace, connie #87348 From: Dieter Möller Date: Sun Jun 22, 2008 11:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XVII,270 moellerdieter Hi Herman ... Howard, Robert, Tep , just between.. you wrote: ' What do you think is the connection, if any, between The Four Noble Truths (especially the EightFold Noble Path) and Dependent Origination' D: I think S.N. XII 65 (extract , translation by J.D.Ireland ) provides an answer..pls see quotation below . with Metta Dieter "Bhikkhus, it is just as if a person wandering through the jungle, the great forest should see an ancient path, an ancient road, traveled along by men of former times. And as if he should go along it and going along it should see an ancient town, an ancient royal city, inhabited by men of former times, having parks, groves, ponds and walls - a delightful place. And then that person should inform the King or the King's chief minister, saying, 'My lord you should know that when wandering through the jungle, the great forest, I saw an ancient path, an ancient road, traveled along by men of former times. I went along it and saw an ancient town, an ancient royal city inhabited by men of former times, having parks, groves, ponds and walls - a delightful place. Sire, rebuild that city.' And then the king or the king's chief minister were to rebuild that city, so that in time it became rich, prosperous and well populated, expanded and developed. "So also, bhikkhus, have I seen an ancient path, an ancient road, traveled along by fully Enlightened Ones of former times. And what, bhikkhus, is that ancient path, that ancient road, traveled along by fully Enlightened Ones of former times? It is just this Noble Eightfold Path, that that is to say, right view, right thought, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, and right concentration. "This is that ancient path, that ancient road, traveled along by fully Enlightened Ones of former times, and going along it I came to know aging-and-death, I came to know the origin of aging-and-death, I came to know the cessation of aging-and-death, I came to know the way leading to cessation of aging-and-death. Going along it I came to know birth... becoming... grasping... craving... I came to know volitional activities, I came to know the origin of volitional activities, I came to know the cessation of volitional activities, I came to know the line of conduct leading to cessation of volitional activities. "Having understood it [through personal experience] I have taught it to the bhikkhus, the bhikkhuniis, the male and female lay-followers, so that this holy life has become rich, prosperous and wide-spread, known to many, widely known and announced by devas and men. - SN XlI.65 (extract) #87349 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jun 22, 2008 7:37 am Subject: Some Brief Thoughts on Translating 'Vi~n~nanam Anidassana' upasaka_howard Hi, all - There are various renderings of 'anidassana' in 'vi~n~nanam anidassana', including "unmanifestive," "featureless," "signless, and "boundless." The word 'nidassana' suggests a delimiting, pointing out, or delineating. Accordingly, the way I like to think of 'anidassana' is as meaning "non-delimiting" or "seamless," so that instead of translating 'vi~n~nanam anidassana' by 'boundless consciousness', I would sooner choose 'seamless consciousness', though I would actually prefer 'presence' to 'consciousness' there, because I identify the phrase with nibbana, and I consider the seamlessness to put it beyond both subject and object, as no more a knowing than a known, and utterly beyond ordinary, sense-media consciousness. Thus, my preferred translation of the phrase 'vi~n~nanam anidassana' is 'seamless presence'. With metta, Howard #87350 From: "Tep" Date: Sun Jun 22, 2008 12:06 pm Subject: Re: Vism.XVII,270 dhammanusarin Dear Dieter, (Herman and others) - SN 12.65 : Nagara Sutta actually is about the Buddha's discovery of the Four Noble Truths and Dependent Orgination through direct knowledge of the Path. As I understand it, this sutta does not describe the connection between the two. Just this noble eightfold path: right view, right aspiration, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. That is the ancient path, the ancient road, traveled by the Rightly Self-awakened Ones of former times. I followed that path. Following it, I came to direct knowledge of aging & death, direct knowledge of the origination of aging & death, direct knowledge of the cessation of aging & death, direct knowledge of the path leading to the cessation of aging & death. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.065.than.html But I may be wrong. Tep === #87351 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jun 22, 2008 8:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism.XVII,270 upasaka_howard Hi, Tep (and Dieter) - In a message dated 6/22/2008 3:06:36 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, tepsastri@... writes: Dear Dieter, (Herman and others) - SN 12.65 : Nagara Sutta actually is about the Buddha's discovery of the Four Noble Truths and Dependent Orgination through direct knowledge of the Path. As I understand it, this sutta does not describe the connection between the two. Just this noble eightfold path: right view, right aspiration, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. That is the ancient path, the ancient road, traveled by the Rightly Self-awakened Ones of former times. I followed that path. Following it, I came to direct knowledge of aging & death, direct knowledge of the origination of aging & death, direct knowledge of the cessation of aging & death, direct knowledge of the path leading to the cessation of aging & death. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.065.than.html But I may be wrong. Tep ============================ Well, in this sutta the Buddha refers to the unraveling phase of dependent origination as "this path to Awakening." Then later, he talks of the path that he discovered in the wilderness to be the usual noble eightfold path, which is the 4th noble truth. So, this sutta at least suggests that the Buddha identifiesthese two paths: the unraveling phase of D. O. and path that is the 4th noble truth. With metta, Howard #87352 From: "Phil" Date: Sun Jun 22, 2008 4:09 pm Subject: Re: Overview of KS 3: Her Faulty Teaching philofillet Hi Connie Connie (interrupting): Similes rule! Ok, they rock. Conditions rule. The wildfire's in the head? Anytime I hear myself say 'no doubt', the alarm is sounding. > Some kindling: I believe in folklore to the exclusion of understanding it on that deeper level, that is living ordinarily... the perpetuation of the myth(s). > There is a saying that if you want to know the future, you look to the present. I think also the past is beheld there. Our precious time. > > Mesuspects you're getting too deep here! It's a simple, straightforward simile with a simple message - when one finds oneself with grass fire on one's hands, one stamps it out fast. When one finds oneself (so to speak) up to no good, one stops it right there, fast. OI don't understand why you speak of folklore unless you are somehow dismissing the Buddha's teaching on this point? Why do you mention folklore? It's not folkore, it's Dhamma. Do you think the similes the Buddha uses are folklore and inferior therefore to the deep and simile- less Abhidhamma? But you tend to be so cryptic that I am probably missing your point! :) Metta, Phil > >> > #87353 From: "Tep" Date: Sun Jun 22, 2008 4:11 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Vism.XVII,270 dhammanusarin Hi Howard (Dieter), - Thank you for the second opinion that sent me back to Nagara Sutta to verify the point you made. > >Tep: SN 12.65 : Nagara Sutta actually is about the Buddha's discovery of the Four Noble Truths and Dependent Orgination through direct knowledge of the Path. As I understand it, this sutta does not describe the connection between the two. ... .... ============================ > Howard: Well, in this sutta the Buddha refers to the unraveling phase of dependent origination as "this path to Awakening." Then later, he talks of the path that he discovered in the wilderness to be the usual noble eightfold path, which is the 4th noble truth. So, this sutta at least suggests that the Buddha identifiesthese two paths: the unraveling phase of D. O. and path that is the 4th noble truth. With metta, Howard ................................ T: There is an error I made above! I meant to say the Fourth Noble Truth, rather than the Four Noble Truths, is not connected to the DO. As I said in an earlier post, the 1st - 3rd truths are explained by the DO principle, not the 4th. Yes, I also notice that the "path" which the unawakened Bodhisatta followed is the noble eightfold path to directly know the FNTs of the DO links. This definition of path is common in many suttas. We both agree on this. Yes, there is a one-time mentioning of the "path to Awakening". But I wonder why it is referred only to the cessation exposition of the DO. "The thought occurred to me, 'I have attained this path to Awakening, i.e., from the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of consciousness, ... ... From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Thus is the cessation of this entire mass of stress." Thank you very much for pointing out the error for me. Tep === #87354 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Sun Jun 22, 2008 4:14 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: response to hate mail etc - ... Credibility egberdina Hi Sukin, 2008/6/21 Sukinder : > > Herman: > Is it possible that you actually mean that you believe this, rather > than understand it? > > > But Herman, why do you ask this? What would our communication be like if > both or even one of us asked the kind of question you've asked with > every assertion made? If you have something to say that might prove me > wrong, why don't you just state them? I'm just wondering what benefit you see in believing or understanding the Dhamma to be the *only* expression of Truth. All around the world all sorts of people believe and understand all sorts of things. I do not see anything in the way the peoples that have been Theravadan for centuries live their lives that makes me think they are freer of suffering than elsewhere. I would sooner think the opposite. It makes no sense to me to believe that by persevering to do as has always been done, that things are going to be any different in the future. If the Dhamma is the *only* expression of Truth, and Buddhagosa's 3 P's is the way to realise this Truth, then it is hardly unreasonable for me to ask to see something to show for it , is there? But it is not worth arguing over, and I am a happy for you to believe whatever you want :-) Cheers Herman #87355 From: "Tep" Date: Sun Jun 22, 2008 4:48 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: response to hate mail etc - ... Credibility dhammanusarin Hi Herman (Sukin), - As usual, your comments are thought provoking. >Herman (to Sukin): >I'm just wondering what benefit you see in believing or understanding the Dhamma to be the *only* expression of Truth. All around the world all sorts of people believe and understand all sorts of things. I do not see anything in the way the peoples that have been Theravadan for centuries live their lives that makes me think they are freer of suffering than elsewhere. I would sooner think the opposite. T: If by the capitalized 'Truth' you mean one of the 4 noble truths, then I agree with Sukin that the Buddha's Dhamma is the only expression of the Truth. He was the only religious Teacher who truly knew through Direct Knowledge how the FNTs could lead to the cessation of dukkha. Those Buddhists who failed to become "freer of suffering than elsewhere" must have failed in some way to practice according to the Dhamma. Tep === #87356 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Sun Jun 22, 2008 4:49 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: [ dsg] Re: Kamma, was Death. egberdina Hi Jon, 2008/6/21 jonoabb : > Hi Herman > > >> I don't get the significance of your point. We agree that there are >> multiple individual dhammas, and the knowable relationships between >> them. That is the entity, the stream of consciousness. > > Individual dhammas are directly knowable by panna, as are the > relationships holding among them (assuming panna of sufficiently > developed level). It would help me if you could give some examples of what is known when an individual dhamma is directly known by panna. I'll wait to hear from you before I go any further, because we seem to have moved from knowing to direct knowing, and we have introduced panna as the whatever it is that is doing this direct knowing, without first having established the means whereby it can be known that panna is doing whatever it is doing :-) Cheers Herman #87357 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Sun Jun 22, 2008 5:09 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Views re self & the world DN2 egberdina Hi Jon, 2008/6/21 jonoabb : > Hi Herman > > > Manifested qualities are those appearing at the present moment. All > the other qualities that are accumulated in the individual stream but > are not appearing at the present moment are latent (or unmanifested) > qualities. > I thought that this would be relevant in the thread on 'streams of consciousness" so I have picked it out separately. Are accumulation and latency conventional designations, and how are they knowable? Cheers Herman #87358 From: "Tep" Date: Sun Jun 22, 2008 5:30 pm Subject: [ dsg] Re: Kamma, was Death. dhammanusarin Dear Herman and Jon, - Herman, you gave the following remark. It is fair and reasonable. >Herman (to Jon): >It would help me if you could give some examples of what is known when an individual dhamma is directly known by panna. I'll wait to hear from you before I go any further, because we seem to have moved from knowing to direct knowing, and we have introduced panna as the whatever it is that is doing this direct knowing, without first having established the means whereby it can be known that panna is doing whatever it is doing :-) T: IMO You are lucky to talk to Jon. If you had asked other members, you might find it very difficult to get them to agree with you on pa~n~naa, or anything, even when it is directly from the suttas. I know it very well myself as I had several lengthy discussions with them before. Let me repectfully propose to you both that the discussion be based on the Buddha's original definition of pa~n~naa, not on commentaries or words that deviate from the Buddha's. Of course, you have the right to do whatever you want. ;-) In Pa~n~naa Sutta, AN 8.2, pa~n~naa(discernment) that is basic to the Holy Life (direct knowledge is a part of the Holy Life too) is supported by eight requisite conditions defined by the Buddha. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an08/an08.002.than.html Tep === #87359 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Sun Jun 22, 2008 6:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Views re self & the world DN2 egberdina Hi Jon, 2008/6/21 jonoabb : > Hi Herman > > The proposition you mention here, that renunciation is fundamental to > insight, is what I took to be the point of your earlier post. > Yes. > > Ah, but do the 151 suttas say what you say they do, namely, that > (physical) renunciation is fundamental to insight? > > To my understanding (but speaking as someone who does not claim to > have personally read them all), the suttas are consistent in that, > while praising the monk's life properly lived, they do not make that > assertion. MN100 Bhàradvvja, three comparisons occurred to me never heard before. Just as a man would come with an over cover to a wet, sappy log of wood put in the water saying, I will make fire out of this. Bhàradvàja, would he be able to make fire rubbing on that wet sappy log of wood? No, good Gotama. What is the reason? That wet, sappy log of wood put in the waterwhen rubbed with the over cover, will not produce fire. That man will reap only fatigue. In the same way, when recluses or brahmins, abide not even bodily secluded from sensuality the sensual interest, sensual need, sensual stupor, sensual thirst, sensual burning not well turned out internally. They experience sharp rough unpleasant feelings and it is not possible that they should realize knowledge and vision and noble enlightenment...Even if these good recluses and brahmins do not feel sharp rough unpleasant feelings it is not possible that they should realize knowledge and vision and noble enlightenment. This is the first comparison that came to me not heard before. Bhàradvàja, then another comparison came to me never heard before. A man would come with an over cover to a sappy log of wood put on dry land, far away from water saying I will make fire out of this. Bhàradvàja, would he be able to make fire rubbing that sappy log of wood put on dry land far away from water? Good Gotama, that sappy log of wood, however far it may be from water, rubbed with the over cover would not produce fire. That man will reap only fatigue. In the same way, recluses and brahmins that abide not even bodily secluded from sensuality that sensual interest, sensual need, sensual stupor, sensual thirst, sensual burning not well turned out internally, experience sharp rough unpleasant feelings. It is not possible that they should realize knowledge and vision and noble enlightenment. Even if these good recluses and brahmins do not feel sharp rough unpleasant feelings, it is not possible that they should realize knowledge and vision and noble enlightenment This is the second comparison that came to me not heard before. Bhàrdvàja, a third comparison came to me never heard before. Just as a man would come with an over cover to a dry sapless log of wood, thrown far away from water, saying I will make fire out of this. Bhàràdvàja, would he be able to make fire rubbing that dry sapless log of wood, thrown far away from water? Yes, good Gotama. What is the reason? That dry sapless log of wood, thrown far away from water, rubbed with the over cover would produce fire. In the same way, recluses and brahmins that abide bodily secluded from sensuality that sensual interest, sensual need, sensual stupor, sensual thirst, sensual burning well turned out internally, experience sharp rough unpleasant feelings. Yet it is possible that they should realize knowledge and vision and noble enlightenment...Even if these good recluses and brahmins do not feel sharp rough unpleasant feelings it is possible that they should realize knowledge and vision and noble enlightenment. This is the third comparison that came to me not heard before. Cheers Herman #87360 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Jun 22, 2008 6:45 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: response to hate mail etc - ... Credibility buddhatrue Hi Herman, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: I do > not see anything in the way the peoples that have been Theravadan for > centuries live their lives that makes me think they are freer of > suffering than elsewhere. I would sooner think the opposite. Very true. This is because, I believe, Theravada as a whole is a poor expression of the Buddha's truth. Theravada emphasizes panna over compassion; book learning over direct realization (meditation); and arrogance over humility. This isn't the fault of the Buddha's truth, this is the fault of the Theravada tradition. Those who follow the Theravada tradition to the letter really miss the point and barely resemble what the Buddha taught. Metta, James #87361 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Jun 22, 2008 7:08 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: response to hate mail etc - revised and corrected edition kenhowardau Hi Dieter, ------------ <. . .> KH: > > The path is just a fleeting moment of namas and rupas in which the cetasika-namas called Path Factors perform their supramundane functions. D: > I think for a fruitful discussion we both need to keep the conventional and the ultimate perspective in mind. The former applies to those in training to become a Noble One, the latter treats the truth from the view/understanding of those having reached the level ( obviously Abhidhamma was proclaimed to those far advanced..) ------------- If we use the word Dhamma to mean 'the way things are' would you agree there can only be one Dhamma? ----------------------- D: > In order that the cetasikas can perform their functions wholesome for the path factors, the mind needs (the 3fold N.P.) training . Nina used once the expression 'habitual tendencies' for cetasika . Our habit (pls compare with persona ) conditioned by ignorant kamma forces/will , ie. avijja - sankhara- .. is just this procedure as explained in the chain of D.O. and our attachment just that what identifies with self: that I am, that is mine etc.. ------------------------ I won't comment on that because I am not sure I have understood. --------------------------------- KH: > > Essentially the same thing is happening now. There is no self; there are just momentary namas and rupas performing their mundane functions. D: > this may be so in full awareness of the here and now ( pls compare with the Zen school approach) ..but our truth is that such moments of awareness are brief and we are back to normal mundane . Lasting it will be only when body and mind are liberated by full detachment ---------------------------------- I think you have misunderstood what I wrote. I was not saying that you or I had right mindfulness of dhammas. I was saying there were always only dhammas (whether we were mindful of them or not). ------------------------- KH: > > My point is: when we bear this in mind, there can't possibly be any desire for a future state can there? Even a future state of *enlightenment* (magga-citta) can't possibly be an object of longing or desire. Not while we are bearing in mind the fact that there are only fleeting namas and rupas (no self that can go on to become enlightened etc.). So I wonder why there are so many differences in our respective understandings of the texts. What is causing these differences? D: it is said that suffering conditions faith .. the point of suffering and its desire for its cessation is the whole issue of the Buddha Dhamma . Without understanding /knowing suffering , the teaching at best satisfies intellectual curiosity of a philosophy. I alway found it useful to recall that Buddhism in a nutshell is the 4 Noble Truths, all suttas, all vinaya and abhidhamma are not more than support/guidance to construct one's raft... -------------------------- Again I am having trouble. This time I am not sure if you have agreed or disagreed with the point I was making. If we understand there are only fleeting dhammas (no self, no lasting entity) then we understand there is nothing worth clinging to or worth wanting to have. That's all I was asking your opinion on. -------------------- D: I would be glad to have managed to explain some of the differences. That nothing is worth clinging too is certainly common ground. Though much has to be done, the guidance of the training to be followed , striving for the unattained .. but as I mentioned : without one's recognition of suffering no faith , no longing/ hope .. and so no real need to end suffering by the proclaimed path. -------------------- When we understand there are only paramattha dhammas then we are motivated to learn the nature of dhammas. There is indeed suffering, and there is a cause, and end, and a path leading to the end, of suffering. But all of these things can be understood without once having to look beyond our understanding of paramattha dhammas. In other words, the Eigthfold Path can (and should) be understood entirely in terms of fleeting paramattha dhammas. We can think in terms of "my practice" and "my Path progress" and we can think of conventional ways in which a path might be followed. But why would we bother with such things when we have the paramattha explanation? Ken H #87362 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Sun Jun 22, 2008 9:37 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Metta, Ch 9, no 2. egberdina Hi Nina, 2008/6/22 Nina van Gorkom : > Dear friends, > > When we experience happiness or misery on account of visible object, > sound, odour, flavour and tangible object, it seems that other people > are the > cause of such experiences. When we for example have been hurt or > harmed by > others, it seems that other people are the cause of this. However, > could this > really happen if there were no akusala kamma we performed ourselves > which > produces such result? I have no desire to argue with you, but I am always puzzled by the idea that the victim of a crime is somehow responsible for being harmed. I wonder why there would be a precept against killing living beings, if someone who is killed is only getting their just deserts? Another question is this. It is strongly held in some quarters that nothing outside of a "stream of consciousness" can affect it. But in killing another being, is not the killer directly causing the arising of cuti-citta in another stream? Cheers Herman #87363 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 23, 2008 2:13 am Subject: Metta, Ch 9. no 3. nilovg Dear friends, We read in the Commentary to the Dhammapada (vs. 136) that the Buddha told the bhikkhus a story of the past, which happened at the time of Buddha Kassapa. The treasurer Sumangala had a Vihåra built for the Buddha Kassapa. One day when Sumangala was on his way to the Teacher, he saw a robber, hidden in a rest house at the gate of the city, his feet spattered with mud, a robe drawn over his head. Sumangala said to himself: “This man must be a night-prowler in hiding.” Then that robber conceived a grudge against Sumangala. He burned his field seven times, cut off the feet of his cattle seven times and burned his house seven times. However, he had not satisfied his grudge yet against the treasurer. When he found out that Sumangala rejoiced most of all in the Buddha’s Perfumed Chamber, he destroyed that by fire. When Sumangala saw the Perfumed Chamber destroyed by fire he did not have the slightest grief but he clapped his hands with joy since he would be once more permitted to build a Perfumed Chamber for the Buddha. He rebuilt the Perfumed Chamber and presented it to the Buddha and his retinue of twenty thousand monks. When the robber saw that, he decided to kill Sumangala. He took a knife and went around the monastery for seven days. During these days Sumangala made gifts to the Sangha presided over by the Buddha. He told the Buddha what had happened and said that he would transfer to that man the first fruits of the merit of his offering. When the robber heard this he realized that he had committed a grievous sin towards the treasurer who had no ill-will and even extended merit to him. He asked the treasurer forgiveness. When the treasurer asked the robber about each particular deed whether he had committed it, the robber answered him that he had committed all of them, and he explained the reason. He said that he had conceived a grudge against the treasurer when he had heard his words while he was lying down splattered with mud near the city gate. Sumangala asked him forgiveness for the words he had spoken then. The robber wanted to become the treasurer’s slave and live in his house, but Sumangala declined that, since he could not be sure whether the robber would continue to have a grudge against him. Although Sumangala had forgiven the robber, the akusala kamma the robber had committed caused him to be reborn in the Avíci Hell. After he had suffered there for a long time he was reborn as a peta (ghost) on Vultures Peak in the era of this Buddha. The treasurer had no feelings of revenge against the robber who had a grudge against him, but he had mettå towards him. He extended merit to the robber who had committed very heavy akusala kamma so that he would have kusala citta while rejoicing in Sumangala’s good deeds. If Sumangala had been angry with the robber and had feelings of revenge, he himself could have received the result of his anger and of the deeds motivated by revenge. ****** Nina. #87364 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 23, 2008 2:39 am Subject: Re: Q. kamma and vipaka. [dsg] Metta, Ch 9, no 2. nilovg Hi Howard and Herman, your questions are quite understandable, and they relate to the way how we see the role of kamma. Op 22-jun-2008, om 14:20 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Howard: Our kamma is, > certainly, the single most predominant condition affecting our > life, but that > being said, it is important to not overstate its importance and > underplay > other types of conditioning. ------- N: That is why I pointed to you the passage in the Metta text about relatives or others being an immediate occasion of unpleasant experiences that we experience. You give an example of the change of climate partly caused by industrialization. It helps to remember that the cittas that experience objects through the senses are results. This is true, no matter what happens, whatever this or that person is doing to us. ------- Herman: I am always puzzled by the idea that the victim of a crime is somehow responsible for being harmed. I wonder why there would be a precept against killing living beings, if someone who is killed is only getting their just deserts? ------- N: The precept: affects 'our' kusala or akusala cittas. Undergoing killing is vipaaka, 'our vipaka', it is the result of another deed committed in the past, unknown of which deed. What matters is: performing kusala, avoiding and eradicating akusala. ------ H: Another question is this. It is strongly held in some quarters that nothing outside of a "stream of consciousness" can affect it. But in killing another being, is not the killer directly causing the arising of cuti-citta in another stream? ------ N: As we read in the suttas, length of lifespan depends on 'our own' kamma, not on what someone else is doing to us. Now my conclusions to the questions of both of you: Kamma is the field of the Buddhas, and we cannot find out much about it, we can only speculate about this or that situation, this or that person. This does not help us to understand the reality of kamma and the reality of vipaka. Thinking of stories, circumstances, persons doing this or that, all this is not helpful. It does help to understand different cittas: some are cause, some are result. Kusala citta and akusala citta are causes. Seeing, hearing, bodyconsciousness which experience pleasant or unpleasant objects are results. We mind our 'own' cittas, we have to know these as to their true nature. We cannot manage other people's cittas, we can only help to a certain degree and we shall certainly do the best we can. That is kusala. Nina. #87365 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Jun 23, 2008 2:47 am Subject: Re: Overview of KS 3: Her Faulty Teaching philofillet Hi again, anyone. I wrote: > It's a simple, > straightforward simile with a simple message - when one finds oneself > with grass fire on one's hands, one stamps it out fast. When one finds > oneself (so to speak) up to no good, one stops it right there, fast. Ph: Here is the sutta passage in question. It'S SN 14:12: "Suppose, bhikkhus, a man would drop a blazing grass torch into a thicket of dry grass. If he quickly extingioshes it with his hands and feet, the creatures living in the grass and wood will not meet with calamity and disaster. So too, if any ascetic or brahmin quickly abandons, dispels, obliterates and annihilates the unrighteous perceptions that have arisen in him, he dwells happily in this very life, without vexation, despair and fever; and with the breakup of the body, after death, a good destination may be expected for him." Nothing more need to be said about this passage as far as I'm concerned. We do it (it happens) or we don't (or it doesn't.) That's all. Metta, Phil #87366 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 23, 2008 2:49 am Subject: Re: stories. [dsg] Vism.XVII,270 nilovg Dear Mike, Op 22-jun-2008, om 4:59 heeft m. nease het volgende geschreven: > "Going beyond > discursive thinking" etc. does absolutely nothing to eradicate the > underlying problem (the second noble truth). At the very best--and > that's > VERY rare--basically unattainable for laypeople--it temporarily > suppresses unpleasant feelings, and at its worst (far, far more > common) > strengthening conceit, inflexibility (amudutaa), delusion etc., > etc. So it seems to me anyway, and this seems to me very consistent > with the > texts and my own experience. Really rambling here, Nina--sorry! ------- N: Very consistent with the texts and it is possible to verify it for ourselves. Thanks, go on rambling! Nina. #87367 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Jun 23, 2008 3:01 am Subject: [dsg] Re: response to hate mail etc - revised and corrected edition kenhowardau Hi Howard, ------------ <. . .> KH: > > My point is: when we bear this in mind, there can't possibly be any desire for a future state can there? Even a future state of *enlightenment* (magga-citta) can't possibly be an object of longing or desire. Not while we are bearing in mind the fact that there are only fleeting namas and rupas (no self that can go on to become enlightened etc.). Howard: > I disagree with this, Ken. As I see it, regardless of what we "bear in mind," future states of particular sorts are desired all the time. Our intellectual views, even when correct and consistently held onto, do not preclude desiring. ------------ They preclude it at the intellectual level, don't they? When we understand intellectually that there are only namas and rupas (all of them anicca, dukkha and anatta) we also understand intellectually that any form of craving, conceit or self view would be absurdly out of place. That's all I was saying. ----------------------------------- H: > What there is on the surface of mind, our "views," will not preclude desire. Only uprooting of defilement at the deepest levels of mentality will do so. ----------------------------------- When there is right understanding there cannot be desire. Kusala and akusala cannot exist in the same citta. ----------------------------------------------- H: > It is, of course, good and useful and *important* to hold right views, but they alone won't do the trick. ------------------------------------------------ Right view never arises alone. It is the forerunner, but it can only arise concurrently with the other path factors. Therefore, whenever right view does arise all the requirements for "doing the trick" are indeed present. Ken H #87368 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jun 23, 2008 12:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: response to hate mail etc - revised and corrected edition upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 6/23/2008 6:01:55 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi Howard, ------------ <. . .> KH: > > My point is: when we bear this in mind, there can't possibly be any desire for a future state can there? Even a future state of *enlightenment* (magga-citta) can't possibly be an object of longing or desire. Not while we are bearing in mind the fact that there are only fleeting namas and rupas (no self that can go on to become enlightened etc.). Howard: > I disagree with this, Ken. As I see it, regardless of what we "bear in mind," future states of particular sorts are desired all the time. Our intellectual views, even when correct and consistently held onto, do not preclude desiring. ------------ They preclude it at the intellectual level, don't they? When we understand intellectually that there are only namas and rupas (all of them anicca, dukkha and anatta) we also understand intellectually that any form of craving, conceit or self view would be absurdly out of place. ------------------------------------------------- Howard: There is no desiring at the "intellectual level" no matter what. There may be evaluation of whether desire makes sense or not, and that may slightly impact the degree of desire, but, for the most part, desire by its very nature is emotional. But yes, we may certainly, by adoption of proper view, be aware that certain desire is inappropriate and harmful and painful, and that will serve as motivation. ----------------------------------------------- That's all I was saying. ----------------------------------- H: > What there is on the surface of mind, our "views," will not preclude desire. Only uprooting of defilement at the deepest levels of mentality will do so. ----------------------------------- When there is right understanding there cannot be desire. ----------------------------------------- Howard: Correct intellectual understanding is 10 billion miles away from the wisdom that uproots defilements. Correct intellectual understanding can and does frequently coexist with perverse and harmful desire. -------------------------------------------- Kusala and akusala cannot exist in the same citta. ------------------------------------------ Howard: Within a brief time period, there can be thousands of instants of perverse and harmful desire intermixed with moments of correct intellectual understanding. Ken, look at the reality of the cases of people knowing for sure that what they do is wrong but do it anyway because of powerful desire! -------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------- H: > It is, of course, good and useful and *important* to hold right views, but they alone won't do the trick. ------------------------------------------------ Right view never arises alone. It is the forerunner, but it can only arise concurrently with the other path factors. Therefore, whenever right view does arise all the requirements for "doing the trick" are indeed present. Ken H ============================ With metta, Howard #87369 From: "szmicio" Date: Mon Jun 23, 2008 5:24 am Subject: Re: akusala cetasika - ditthi and vicikiccha szmicio Dear Nina, but I still not understand. When is seeing, it sees a visible object , but I dont know that. There is a color, a shape and a thinking about what is seen. But seeing sees just only rupa.and pannja just know it. Is really seeing sees a color or shape? Or maybe there are diffrent cittas which know a color? What is diffrence between pannati and ditthi? When I am thinking "This is a ball" is it a ditthi? When I am thinking "All those states are permanent" is it a ditthi? bye Lukas #87370 From: "Alex" Date: Mon Jun 23, 2008 6:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Metta, Ch 9, no 2. truth_aerator Hi Herman and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: but I am always puzzled by the idea that the victim of a crime is somehow responsible for being harmed. >>> I think that we need to be careful not to include ALL cases. Sometimes, people make bad choices and get harmed through that. >>>>> I wonder why there would be a precept against killing living beings, if someone who is killed is only getting their just deserts? >>>> Hatred is a stressful feeling (for the killer) itself, furthermore killing may turn some beings against you, it conditions you to be violent (and this may get out of control and against you). > Another question is this. It is strongly held in some quarters that > nothing outside of a "stream of consciousness" can affect it. But in > killing another being, is not the killer directly causing the arising > of cuti-citta in another stream? > Good observation. Is this what DSG Abhidhammikas believe? Best wishes, Alex #87371 From: "Alex" Date: Mon Jun 23, 2008 6:44 am Subject: [dsg] Re: response to hate mail etc - ... Credibility truth_aerator Hi James and Herman, >>>In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: Very true. This is because, I believe, Theravada as a whole is a poor expression of the Buddha's truth. Theravada emphasizes panna over compassion; book learning over direct realization (meditation); and arrogance over humility. > > This isn't the fault of the Buddha's truth, this is the fault of the > Theravada tradition. Those who follow the Theravada tradition to the > letter really miss the point and barely resemble what the Buddha taught. > > Metta, > James > There are various types of "Theravada": Sri Lankan, Burmese, Thai. Some of them are far closer to Buddha's original message, so IMHO we should define what exactly we disagree with. I'd like to say that IMHO Thai Forest tradition is far closer. "Abhi"-"dhamma": Interesting thing is that many other early Buddhist sects also had Abh and like Theravadins they have atrributed him to teach Abh to humans. Sarvastivadins claimed that Sariputta (and other greats) taught Sarv ABhi, Dharmaguptaka Úâriputrâbhidharmaúâstra (T. 1548) was too, Vajjiputakkas had Abhidhamma and according to Paramartha it was Abhidhamma of Sariputta. Path of Discrimination (2002) pg xxxii and so on. It is funny how many people convert to Buddhism because it is a "rational and cosmic religions" only to make a religion out of it. Why do some people believe that Buddha has taught "Theravada" Abhidhamma in The Heaven to the deities. Hey it is funny that he chose to teach to the angels that "Hey, you've ain't got no soul!" Oy, vey! Why Ther Abh? Why not Sarv or some other Abh? (For the record, I do not deny angels/devas, & the lokas) If some people believe in some mythological justifications, then why not believe that extra scriptures were saved in a mythical like dragon realm to be discovered by Nagarjuna? Why not believe in 2nd & 3rd turning of the wheel of Dhamma? You get the idea. Recently I was looking over Paranayavagga (one of the oldest and most authentic, and VERY GOOD suttas). How much has the Buddhism changed... http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/snp/index.html#vagga-5 Also I was looking over the speech aspect... The sutta evidence does NOT point to "absolute" manner of speaking, as all speech is conventional anyways. There isn't an absolute ontological "truth" where you can say so and so cittas, so and so cetasikas, so much rupas, etc... So is there any surprise as to why there were so many debates between the various Buddhist schools? 72 , 75 or 100 dhammas? Multiplicity or singularity? Sabahava, parabhava or no sabhava? 5 relations of 24 ? Etc etc... In MN74 sutta the Buddha has said that clinging to any view is stressful and I do not believe that He went against his own teaching later on. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.074.than.html So much has changed, when Abh and especially Katthavatthu book came out... =========== Best wishes, Alex #87372 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 23, 2008 7:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Metta, Ch 9, no 2. nilovg Hi Alex and Herman, Op 23-jun-2008, om 15:03 heeft Alex het volgende geschreven: > But in > > killing another being, is not the killer directly causing the > arising > > of cuti-citta in another stream? > > > > Good observation. Is this what DSG Abhidhammikas believe? ------- N: It depends on his kamma whether he will die or not. It may not be the right time for his death, although the killer tried to kill him. The killer is a proximate cause of his death, but not the deepest cause. The combinations of many factors, such as being at the wrong time and in the wrong place is not just bad luck or accident. These things happen in life and it is due to kamma that it had to happen. In the Wheel sutta we learn that past good actions condition one to be born in the right place so that one can hear true dhamma. Nina. #87373 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Jun 23, 2008 7:33 am Subject: [dsg] Re: response to hate mail etc - ... Credibility buddhatrue Hi Alex, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > > There are various types of "Theravada": Sri Lankan, Burmese, Thai. > Some of them are far closer to Buddha's original message, so IMHO we > should define what exactly we disagree with. I'd like to say that IMHO > Thai Forest tradition is far closer. I would also agree with you that the Thai Forest tradition was a return to what the Buddha actually taught. Unfortunately, as far as I'm concerned, the Thai Forest Tradition died when Achan Chah died. Metta, James #87374 From: "connie" Date: Mon Jun 23, 2008 8:13 am Subject: Overview of KS 3: Her Faulty Teaching nichiconn Dear Phil, I see you've already reposted about the fire simile you had in mind and stated that nothing more need be said about it. Nevertheless, your earlier mention of it reminded me that the real thickets, flames and straw / dry grass are not anywhere 'out there' but carried on / in our heads. You asked whether I "think the similes the Buddha uses are folklore and inferior therefore to the deep and simile-less Abhidhamma". I thought it was an odd question. The whole of "Human Types" is simile! I can't figure out why anyone would claim the contents of one of basket to be Inferior to either of the others, let alone seem to insist that anyone else should see it that way. I'm afraid I can't answer at all except to suggest that if you really want to dig Dhamma-Vinaya, try it with the spade of Abhidhamma, sharpened by the Commentaries. We're all the lunatic / village idiot of sorts so I'm not sure understanding Connie's thinking should really be seen as a problem for anyone else, but I can rephrase my thoughts a bit with some hope that it helps you see where I'm coming from a little better. Conditions are such that we're all caught up where our beliefs lie, tending to make things up. Folk-lore : that is living ordinarily. Making the rounds. Folks, dogs, computers, rain gods, situational ethics, nation states - all that conventional, believed in, acted out daily life; the Stuff Stories are made of. But endlessly? Groan. There's that characteristic: dukkha. That's one of two things Buddha taught. The other would be The Ending, but read the books. peace, connie #87375 From: Dieter Möller Date: Mon Jun 23, 2008 8:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism.XVII,270 moellerdieter Hi Tep and Howard , I jump to your last response: you wrote: Tep: There is an error I made above! I meant to say the Fourth Noble Truth, rather than the Four Noble Truths, is not connected to the DO. As I said in an earlier post, the 1st - 3rd truths are explained by the DO principle, not the 4th. D: I think it is quite useful to contemplate the relation between the D.O. and 4 N.T. Nyanatiloka stated ' the (D.O. ) formular may be regarded as a detailed explanation of the 2nd N.T. , similar P.A. Payutto : the 2nd N.T. includes the profound law of causes and effects called Paticc. or D.O. Comparing with e.g. A.N. III 62 : ..and what is the truth of the orgination of suffering ? By ignorance is conditioned volitional activities.. etc. etc. But the first NT ( D.O. describes 'the whole mass of suffering') , the third N.T. ( D.O. in reverse order) and the 4 th N.T. are involved too. For the latter compare e.g. S.N. XII 2 ' ..and what is ignorance? whatever is absence of knowledge into suffering , the orgin of..the end and the way to end suffering.. or S.N. XXII 57 : '..from arising of name and form comes the arising of consciousness, from the ceasing of name and form , is the ceasing of consciousness and the path leading to the ceasing of consciousness is this 8fold N.P.' Perhaps one can say , the D.O. describes the surrounding , the N.P. the 8 guideposts, which the person meets when using (practise)' that ancient road, traveled along by fully Enlightened Ones of former times' . What do you think? with Metta Dieter #87376 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jun 23, 2008 4:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism.XVII,270 upasaka_howard Hi, Dieter (and Tep) - In a message dated 6/23/2008 11:44:53 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, moellerdieter@... writes: Hi Tep and Howard , I jump to your last response: you wrote: Tep: There is an error I made above! I meant to say the Fourth Noble Truth, rather than the Four Noble Truths, is not connected to the DO. As I said in an earlier post, the 1st - 3rd truths are explained by the DO principle, not the 4th. D: I think it is quite useful to contemplate the relation between the D.O. and 4 N.T. Nyanatiloka stated ' the (D.O. ) formular may be regarded as a detailed explanation of the 2nd N.T. , similar P.A. Payutto : the 2nd N.T. includes the profound law of causes and effects called Paticc. or D.O. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: I agree, and I think it is a good point. ------------------------------------------ Comparing with e.g. A.N. III 62 : ..and what is the truth of the orgination of suffering ? By ignorance is conditioned volitional activities.. etc. etc. But the first NT ( D.O. describes 'the whole mass of suffering') , the third N.T. ( D.O. in reverse order) and the 4 th N.T. are involved too. For the latter compare e.g. S.N. XII 2 ' ..and what is ignorance? whatever is absence of knowledge into suffering , the orgin of..the end and the way to end suffering.. or S.N. XXII 57 : '..from arising of name and form comes the arising of consciousness, from the ceasing of name and form , is the ceasing of consciousness and the path leading to the ceasing of consciousness is this 8fold N.P.' Perhaps one can say , the D.O. describes the surrounding , the N.P. the 8 guideposts, which the person meets when using (practise)' that ancient road, traveled along by fully Enlightened Ones of former times' . What do you think? ---------------------------------------------- I think there are several ways in which the two are related. as you show, and also including what I see as an apparent identification by the Buddha of the the 8-fold path (the 4th noble truth) for the realization of nibbana with the unraveling phase of D. O., which also pertains to the realization of nibbana. The 8-fold path of practice uproots ignorance, which then engenders, like the falling over of a row of dominoes, the undoing of all the other factors of dependent origination. ---------------------------------------------- with Metta Dieter ========================= With metta, Howard #87377 From: "Alex" Date: Mon Jun 23, 2008 9:11 am Subject: Commentaries truth_aerator Hi Connie, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: I can't figure out why anyone would claim the contents of one of basket to be Inferior to either of the others, let alone seem to insist that anyone else should see it that way. >>> It is good that you've said this. >>>>> I'm afraid I can't answer at all except to suggest that if you really want to dig Dhamma-Vinaya, try it with the spade of Abhidhamma, sharpened by the Commentaries. >>>>> If you really want to dig Dhamma-Vinaya, become an Arahant. Then when avijja is all gone, you've got perfected Panna and THEN maybe Abh would be more useful. Why should a person read what this or that monk has said in the commentaries? Today we have, Thank Buddha, suttas in DN, MN, SN, AN. Read The Bhagavat Himself. Why settle for commentaries? Do you really think that they could explain it better (or equally) than Lord Buddha himself? Why read (on Buddhism) those people who do not even claim Arahatship or Ariyahood? One might as well read a totally different system all together, less confusion. >>> We're all the lunatic / village idiot of sorts >>> Personally I am after cessation of suffering, and that may make me look like a lunatic to "ordinary" people. However it is the sanest "thing" to realize. Best wishes, Alex #87378 From: Dieter Möller Date: Mon Jun 23, 2008 9:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: response to hate mail etc - revised and corrected edition moellerdieter Hi Ken, you wrote: 'If we use the word Dhamma to mean 'the way things are' would you agree there can only be one Dhamma? ' I see no difference in the meaning of the Buddha Dhamma .. and 45 volumes to express it . Ken : When we understand there are only paramattha dhammas then we are motivated to learn the nature of dhammas. There is indeed suffering, and there is a cause, and end, and a path leading to the end, of suffering. But all of these things can be understood without once having to look beyond our understanding of paramattha dhammas. In other words, the Eigthfold Path can (and should) be understood entirely in terms of fleeting paramattha dhammas. We can think in terms of "my practice" and "my Path progress" and we can think of conventional ways in which a path might be followed. But why would we bother with such things when we have the paramattha explanation? D: because we would become 'ditthi attached '? Ken , I tried to comment on your question about the difference.. so far I can not see a bridge between our understandings.. with Metta Dieter #87379 From: "colette" Date: Sun Jun 22, 2008 10:06 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: response to hate mail etc - ... Credibility ksheri3 Hi James (and Herman), That is a VERY REFRESHING OPINION of the Theravadan traditions to have as I prepare for bed and tomorrow's events. ... toodles, colette #87380 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Jun 23, 2008 8:29 am Subject: Daily Words of the Buddha: Infinite Friendliness! bhikkhu0 Daily Words of the Buddha for 23 June 2008 The Blessed Buddha once said: Idha modati pecca modati; katapuñño ubhayattha modati. So modati so pamodati, disvÄ� kammavisuddhimattano. DOING GOOD Here and now the good-doer rejoices... Even so after passing away and re-arising, the doer of good reaps only joy and satisfaction ... So both here and there the wise with merit well done, enjoys the purity of prior actions. Dhammapada Illustration 16 Background Story 16 Commentary: The Story of Dhammika Upasaka (Verse 16) While residing at the Jetavana monastery in Savatthi, the Buddha uttered Verse (16) of this book, with reference to Dhammika, a lay disciple. Once there lived in Savatthi, a lay disciple by the name of Dhammika, who was virtuous and very fond of giving in charity. He generously offered food and other requisites to the bhikkhus regularly and also on special occasions. He was, in fact, the leader of five hundred virtuous lay disciples of the Buddha who lived in Savatthi. Dhammika had seven sons and seven daughters and all of them, like their father, were virtuous and devoted to charity. When Dhammika was very ill and was on his death-bed he made a request to the Sangha to come to him and recite the sacred texts by his bedside. While the bhikkhus were reciting the Maha Satipatthana Sutta, six decorated chariots from six celestial worlds arrived to invite him to their respective worlds. Dhammika told them to wait for a while for fear of interrupting the recitation of the Sutta. The bhikkhus, thinking that they were being asked to stop, stopped and left the place. A little while later, Dhammika told his children about the six decorated chariots waiting for him. Then and there he decided to choose the chariot from the Tusita world and asked one of his children to throw a garland on to it. Then he passed away and was reborn in the Tusita world. Thus, the virtuous man rejoices in this world as well as in the next. Then the Buddha spoke in verse as follows: Verse 16: Here he rejoices, hereafter he rejoices; one who performed meritorious deeds rejoices in both existences. He rejoices and greatly rejoices when he sees the purity of his own deeds. Translated by Daw Mya Tin, M.A., Burma Pitaka Association, Rangoon, Burma 1986. The Daily Words of the Buddha is a service of Pariyatti. http://www.pariyatti.org Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest * Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka :-) #87381 From: "connie" Date: Mon Jun 23, 2008 10:36 am Subject: Commentaries nichiconn Dear Alex, While it's true that I didn't mean to exclude anyone when I addressed the post to "Phil", I also remember saying that I'd try to respect your wishes that I not discuss my thoughts on certain matters with you. I don't know that you really care to release me from that promise, so I'll just say the commentaries and canon proper are out there for the consideration of those who might benefit from them. I don't want to make it my problem that someone else isn't interested. Next time you address your own opinions regarding the same to me, I'll try to remember you don't want or expect a response and so, thank you in advance for sharing. To answer the rest of your post, you say: Of course, it depends on what we read into "ordinary", but yes, believe we're in agreement here. peace, connie #87382 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 23, 2008 11:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: akusala cetasika - ditthi and vicikiccha nilovg Dear Lukas, First it is good to know the difference between concepts and realities, before we continue. For details, go to Rob K's Web:< http://www.abhidhamma.org/sujin3.htm > I cannot give now many details, but I quote the beginning: When the object that citta cognizes is not a nama or rupa it is a concept. Realities are: one dhamma appearing through one of the six doors, one at a time. Now your Q. Op 23-jun-2008, om 14:24 heeft szmicio het volgende geschreven: > > When is seeing, it sees a visible object , but I dont know that. > There is a color, a shape and a thinking about what is seen. ------- > N: Yes, it is difficult but we can learn. A person does not impinge > on the eyesense, it is colour or visible object, that what appears > through the eyesense. You do not have to think of any special > colour or shape. When your eyes are open there can be moments of > not defining, just seeing without thinking. This is the way to > learn. Thinking arises later, but cittas are so fast,they seem to > occur at the same time. -------- > L: But seeing sees just only rupa.and pannja just know it. ------- N: We do not think of pa~n~naa yet, it has to be developed and later on it can know realities as they are. Usually it is like this: seeing and then other cittas that recognize and define what is seen. This is not pa~n~naa. It is citta that knows what something is. -------- > L:Is really seeing sees a color or shape? Or maybe there are diffrent > cittas which know a color > ------ > N: Seeing does not know shape and form, it is citta that thinks of > shape and form arising later on. ------- > L: What is diffrence between pannati and ditthi? -------- N: Pa~n~natti is a concept one can think of, it is an object of thinking. Di.t.thi is wrong view, a cetasika. Di.t.thi itself is real. -------- > L: When I am thinking "This is a ball" is it a ditthi? ------- N: what type of citta thinks? Kusala citta with generosity which wants to give the ball to a child? Akusala citta that wants to have the ball, lobha? Di.t.thi does not accompany the akusala citta all the time. When you think of concepts there is not necessarily di.t.thi. We think of people, and people are concepts, but we can think with metta and compassion. ------ > L: When I am thinking "All those states are permanent" is it a ditthi? --------- N: When you firmly believe that all dhammas are lasting there is wrong view, di.t.thi, accvompanying the akusala citta rooted in lobha. Nina. #87383 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 23, 2008 11:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts. akusala cetasika - ditthi nilovg Dear Lukas, I am just now typing out my Pilgrimage in Sri Lanka and thought of you when typing the following: < All phenomena are either nåma or rúpa. Theoretical understanding of nåma and rúpa is not enough, it does not bring detachment from the concept of “self”. We have to know nåma and rúpa as they are through direct experience. What does that mean? We have to know them when they appear, one at a time, right now. That is the only way to see them as they are, as not self. What should be known in vipassanå through direct experience? Can a person be known through direct experience? Can hardness be known through direct experience? These are important questions which we discussed. Hardness can be directly experienced through the bodysense when it appears. Is there no hardness now, impinging on the bodysense? We do not have to think of hardness or name it in order to experience it. Hardness is real, it is a physical phenomenon, a rúpa, which can be directly experienced. Can a chair be experienced through the bodysense? We think that we can touch a chair, but what is actually experienced? Hardness or softness can be directly experienced. A chair cannot be directly experienced, it is only an idea we form up in our minds. Thinking can think of many objects, it can think of realities and also of concepts which are not real. When we think that we see a person, it is not seeing, but it is thinking of a concept. Only visible object can be experineced through the eyesense. When we touch what we take for a person, what appears? Hardness, softness, heat or cold can be directly experienced through the bodysense, not a person. The Buddha taught that there is no person, no self. But we have accumulated so much ignorance and wrong view that it seems that we see and touch people.> ------ Nina. #87384 From: "Alex" Date: Mon Jun 23, 2008 1:29 pm Subject: Paramattha one, multiple, or ultimately none? truth_aerator Hi Ken, Scott, Sarah, Sukinder, Nina, and all, >>> Ken : In other words, the Eigthfold Path can (and should) be understood entirely in terms of fleeting paramattha dhammas. >>>> a) Sutta quotes please. b) Do you have DIRECT VISION AND KNOWLEDGE thus: "the N8P can and should be understood entirely in terms of fleeting paramattha dhammas" ? >>> We can think in terms of "my practice" and "my Path progress" and we can think of conventional ways in which a path might be followed. But why would we bother with such things when we have the paramattha explanation? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In which suttas did the Buddha talk about "pamattha" explanations to be better than "conventional" one. Regarding ditthi, views. Why isn't a view of "72 Dhammas & 24 Conditioned relations" a view? In Bahiya and other similiar suttas we hear this anti- metaphysical/speculative statement "In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to the heard, only the heard. In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In reference to the cognized, only the cognized." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.1.10.than.html "the Tathagata, when seeing what is to be seen, doesn't construe an [object as] seen. He doesn't construe an unseen. He doesn't construe an [object] to-be-seen. He doesn't construe a seer. "When hearing...When sensing..."When cognizing what is to be cognized, he doesn't construe an [object as] cognized. He doesn't construe an uncognized. He doesn't construe an [object] to-be- cognized. He doesn't construe a cognizer....the Tathagata — being the same with regard to all phenomena that can be seen, heard, sensed, & cognized — is 'Such.' And I tell you: There's no other 'Such' higher or more sublime. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.024.than.html Considering the fact that many other Buddhist traditions had different abhidhammas, with different Dhammas, different enumerations of various relations and so on, this casts the subjectivist shadow on these enterprises. I have suspicion that if the views are based on inference, on adding onto the experiences, then any Abh or speculative metaphysics is on the same footing -> inference. Of course if anyone here has Direct Perception and DIRECT KNOWLEDGE and VISION that "Only this is true, all else is false" - please come out and help me to gain more faith in "There are only 72 paramattha Dhammas and 24 conditioned relations". Best wishes, Alex #87385 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jun 23, 2008 9:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Paramattha one, multiple, or ultimately none? upasaka_howard Hi, Alex (and Ken, Scott, Sukin, and Nina) - As I prepare for tomorrow's knee surgery, which should be minor and uneventful, I see you here taking on the Forces of Darkness, a.k.a. the Minions of Ajahn Sujin! ;-)) [JUST KIDDING, FOLKS!!!] And with a genuine feeling of warmth and metta for you ALL, I'll just say that I do very much like this post of yours, Alex. :-) With metta, Howard In a message dated 6/23/2008 4:30:02 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, truth_aerator@... writes: Hi Ken, Scott, Sarah, Sukinder, Nina, and all, >>> Ken : In other words, the Eigthfold Path can (and should) be understood entirely in terms of fleeting paramattha dhammas. >>>> a) Sutta quotes please. b) Do you have DIRECT VISION AND KNOWLEDGE thus: "the N8P can and should be understood entirely in terms of fleeting paramattha dhammas" ? >>> We can think in terms of "my practice" and "my Path progress" and we can think of conventional ways in which a path might be followed. But why would we bother with such things when we have the paramattha explanation? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In which suttas did the Buddha talk about "paramattha" explanations to be better than "conventional" one. Regarding ditthi, views. Why isn't a view of "72 Dhammas & 24 Conditioned relations" a view? In Bahiya and other similiar suttas we hear this anti- metaphysical/speculative statement "In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to the heard, only the heard. In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In reference to the cognized, only the cognized." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.1.10.than.html "the Tathagata, when seeing what is to be seen, doesn't construe an [object as] seen. He doesn't construe an unseen. He doesn't construe an [object] to-be-seen. He doesn't construe a seer. "When hearing...When sensing..."When cognizing what is to be cognized, he doesn't construe an [object as] cognized. He doesn't construe an uncognized. He doesn't construe an [object] to-be- cognized. He doesn't construe a cognizer....the Tathagata — being the same with regard to all phenomena that can be seen, heard, sensed, & cognized — is 'Such.' And I tell you: There's no other 'Such' higher or more sublime. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.024.than.html Considering the fact that many other Buddhist traditions had different abhidhammas, with different Dhammas, different enumerations of various relations and so on, this casts the subjectivist shadow on these enterprises. I have suspicion that if the views are based on inference, on adding onto the experiences, then any Abh or speculative metaphysics is on the same footing -> inference. Of course if anyone here has Direct Perception and DIRECT KNOWLEDGE and VISION that "Only this is true, all else is false" - please come out and help me to gain more faith in "There are only 72 paramattha Dhammas and 24 conditioned relations". Best wishes, Alex #87386 From: "Alex" Date: Mon Jun 23, 2008 3:12 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Paramattha one, multiple, or ultimately none? truth_aerator Dear Howard, I wish you the quickest recovery possible, and painless surgery. May the FORCE be with you, Best wishes, With Metta, Apprentice Alex #87387 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jun 23, 2008 11:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Paramattha one, multiple, or ultimately none? upasaka_howard Hi, Alex - In a message dated 6/23/2008 6:23:17 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, truth_aerator@... writes: Dear Howard, I wish you the quickest recovery possible, and painless surgery. May the FORCE be with you, Best wishes, With Metta, Apprentice Alex =========================== ;-)) Thanks, Alex! With metta, Howard #87388 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Jun 23, 2008 4:06 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Paramattha one, multiple, or ultimately none? kenhowardau Hi Howard, Best of luck with your knee operation. Quite seriously, I suggest you don't read the following post from me until you have recovered from the op. It will only depress you. Bookmark here: or maybe just delete now. :-) --------------------------------------------------------------------- <. . .> H: > I'll just say that I do very much like this post of yours, Alex. :-) --------------------------------------------------------------------- KH: I wonder why you liked it. There was nothing in it that appealed to me in the least. As far as I can tell Alex is not interested in the same Dhamma that I am interested in. He is of the Thanissaro persuasion except he actually goes a step further. They both say the Buddha did not intend us to take anatta literally, but whereas Thanissaro says the Buddha taught anatta as a strategy (to stop us thinking when we should be meditating) Alex says the Buddha taught anatta as a joke.* They both believe nibbana to be the destination of our eternal souls. And good luck to them! But how could anyone even begin to discuss the true Dhamma with people who are thinking in such a way? ------------- <. . .> KH: > > > In other words, the Eigthfold Path can (and should) be understood entirely in terms of fleeting paramattha dhammas. >>> Alex: > > a) Sutta quotes please. ------------- KH: Howard, why do you like that response from Alex so much? Hasn't this been the subject of countless DSG discussions? Haven't people written copiously on this subject to show that references to the Path (magga-citta), when read in the light of the Tipitaka as a whole, refer to fleeting paramattha dhammas? I'm not asking anyone to agree with those explanations but is it fair to ask for sutta quotes, and then to be given them in great detail, only to ask again shortly afterwards (as if nothing had happened), "Sutta quotes please?" -------------------- Alex: > > b) Do you have DIRECT VISION AND KNOWLEDGE thus: "the N8P can and should be understood entirely in terms of fleeting paramattha dhammas" ? --------------------- KH: Again: why do you like this so much? As I understand it, Alex is saying "If you know so much then you must be an arahant: congratulations, I am very happy for you!" I hope I am not misrepresenting Alex: I may be confusing him with Elaine who used to say the same thing. As far as I can see, his question is just supercilious sarcasm and not worthy of any reply at all. ----------------------------- <. . .> Alex: > > In which suttas did the Buddha talk about "pamattha" explanations to be better than "conventional" one. ------------------------------- Can you answer that question Howard? Isn't it the whole point of the Dhamma - that it teaches us worldlings a way of seeing the world that was previously unknown to us: a way knowable only to those with little dust in their eyes (etc)? -------------------------------------------- Alex: > > Regarding ditthi, views. Why isn't a view of "72 Dhammas & 24 Conditioned relations" a view? -------------------------------------------- Sheesh! Howard, why are you so delighted by these questions? Hasn't Alex been patiently informed on many, many occasions on DSG that right (correct) views are *not* an obstacle to the Path? --------------------- Alex: > > In Bahiya and other similiar suttas we hear this anti- metaphysical/speculative statement --------------------- In the true Thanissaro tradition, Alex interprets suttas such as this one to be saying that nothing really exists (that there are ultimately no conditioned dhammas). I think you have as similar pet theory, Howard. You have said that, upon enlightenment, we will realise samsara was actually nibbana all along. In other words (to use my words), the teaching of conditioned dhammas was just a strategy to get us through a difficult period. I couldn't agree less! (But then you know that.) :-) Ken H PS: *I hope I got that right (about anatta being meant as a joke). When I read the paragraph involved I more or less switched off and skimmed to the end of the post. But I saw Sarah refer to it later and, from what she wrote, I think my first impression was correct. But if I have got it all wrong I will be only too happy to apologise. ----------------------------------------------------- Alex: > > Considering the fact that many other Buddhist traditions had different abhidhammas, with different Dhammas, different enumerations of various relations and so on, this casts the subjectivist shadow on these enterprises. I have suspicion that if the views are based on inference, on adding onto the experiences, then any Abh or speculative metaphysics is on the same footing -> inference. Of course if anyone here has Direct Perception and DIRECT KNOWLEDGE and VISION that "Only this is true, all else is false" - please come out and help me to gain more faith in "There are only 72 paramattha Dhammas and 24 conditioned relations". Best wishes, Alex #87389 From: "Tep" Date: Mon Jun 23, 2008 4:46 pm Subject: Re: [was Vism.XVII,270] .. FNTs and N8FP dhammanusarin Hi Dieter (Howard), -- Like you just said, it is 'quite useful to contemplate the relation between the D.O. and 4 N.T.'. That is a patipadaa for all Stream- enterers, I believe. [PTS Dictionary. Patipadaa = means of reaching a goal or destination, path, way, means, method, mode of progress (cp. Dhs. trsln 53, 82, 92, 143), course, practice.] >Dieter: >Perhaps one can say , the D.O. describes the surrounding , the N.P. the 8 guideposts, which the person meets when using (practise)' that ancient road, traveled along by fully Enlightened Ones of former times'. What do you think? T: Yes, I agree if you allow me to interpret "surrounding" as a means of reaching a goal, or as supporting condition. Seeing DO as "a detailed explanation of the 2nd N.T." overlooks the dependent cessation of the D.O. (i.e. Forward Exposition on Cessation, MN 38) that connects to the 3rd N.T.. Seeing that "the 2nd N.T. includes the profound law of causes and effects called Paticc. or D.O." overlooks the 1st N.T. and the 3rd N.T. that are included in the D.O.. I think the 4th noble truth is not in the D.O. principle; the latter as the "path to Awakening" leads to the former, the noble eightfold path, that was discovered only by direct knowledge [Nagara Sutta]. Tep === #87390 From: "Alex" Date: Mon Jun 23, 2008 4:47 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Paramattha one, multiple, or ultimately none? truth_aerator Hi Ken, Howard and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Howard, > KH: I wonder why you liked it. There was nothing in it that appealed to me in the least. As far as I can tell Alex is not interested in the same Dhamma that I am interested in. He is of the Thanissaro persuasion except he actually goes a step further. They both say the Buddha did not intend us to take anatta literally, but >>> Perception of Anatta IS to be developed and realized through DIRECT perception if it is to be of any use. >>>>> whereas Thanissaro says the Buddha taught anatta as a strategy (to stop us thinking when we should be meditating) Alex says the Buddha taught anatta as a joke.* They both believe nibbana to be the destination of our eternal souls. >>> No. > ------------- > <. . .> > KH: > > > In other words, the Eigthfold Path can (and should) be > understood entirely in terms of fleeting paramattha dhammas. > >>> > > Alex: > > a) Sutta quotes please. > ------------- > > KH: Howard, why do you like that response from Alex so much? Hasn't > this been the subject of countless DSG discussions? Haven't people > written copiously on this subject to show that references to the Path (magga-citta), when read in the light of the Tipitaka as a whole, refer to fleeting paramattha dhammas? >>>> I have read 4 Nikayas. There is nothing there to suggest or to emphasize the existence of ultimate entities to be known in order to become an Ariya. In fact paramattha meant as the "highest goal" rather than later reified "ultimate entity". >>>>>>>>> I'm not asking anyone to agree with those explanations but is it fair to ask for sutta quotes, and then to be given them in great detail, only to ask again shortly afterwards (as if nothing had happened), "Sutta quotes please?" >>>>>>>> Please be so kind and cut and paste the answers. I suspect that they will be clever, modernist reinterpretations of some vague phrases. > -------------------- > Alex: > > b) Do you have DIRECT VISION AND KNOWLEDGE thus: "the N8P > can and should be understood entirely in terms of fleeting paramattha > dhammas" ? > --------------------- > > KH: Again: why do you like this so much? As I understand it, Alex is saying "If you know so much then you must be an arahant: > congratulations, I am very happy for you!" > Yes, you'd be surprised at how little you need to know in order to become an Arahant. Dhamma isn't an Academic subject. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.009.than.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/snp/snp.3.12.than.html The tough part is to make it become your default and DIRECT PERCEPTION rather than to speculate on it. > I hope I am not misrepresenting Alex: I may be confusing him with > Elaine who used to say the same thing. As far as I can see, his > question is just supercilious sarcasm and not worthy of any reply > at all. > My questions are pragmatic and inquiring ones. Some of you hold views that are no different from Mahayana (which I don't accept), > ----------------------------- > <. . .> > Alex: > > In which suttas did the Buddha talk about "paramattha" > explanations to be better than "conventional" one. > ------------------------------- > > Can you answer that question Howard? Isn't it the whole point of the Dhamma - that it teaches us worldlings a way of seeing the world that was previously unknown to us: a way knowable only to those with > little dust in their eyes (etc)? > Yes one must see the world to be empty of self or what belongs to it. I have yet to find a sutta where the Buddha has said "Only this is true, all else if false. There are only 72, not 71 not 73 paramattha dhammas". > -------------------------------------------- > Alex: > > Regarding ditthi, views. Why isn't a view of "72 Dhammas & > 24 Conditioned relations" a view? > -------------------------------------------- > > Sheesh! Howard, why are you so delighted by these questions? Hasn't > Alex been patiently informed on many, many occasions on DSG that > right (correct) views are *not* an obstacle to the Path? > Ken, rather than throwing dirt on Howard(?!), why not me?. Can you say why there is only 72 Dhammas, not 75, not 100? Holding a view, even if it is "right" one, and without having a direct experience of it and without acting in accordance with it - is pointless and questions the whole "rightness" of it. Right view must let go of clinging if it is "right". When one considers that "Only this is true, all else is false." especially without DIRECT KNOWLEDGE and VISION - what is it? And even more importantly, what use is it to know and be able to list them all if we have pragmatic instructions of the Buddha? > --------------------- > Alex: > > In Bahiya and other similiar suttas we hear this anti- > metaphysical/speculative statement > > --------------------- > > In the true Thanissaro tradition, Alex interprets suttas such as this > one to be saying that nothing really exists (that there are > ultimately no conditioned dhammas). I think you have as similar pet > theory, Howard. ?>>>>>>> Oh my! No wonder I wasn't able to have a good dialog with you Ken. What I was saying was a pragmatic, Buddhist teaching. We must let go of EVERYTHING. We must train to "in the seen, heard, sensed, cognized, let there be only what is seen, heard, sensed, cognized". In other words no views added, and no craving anywhere and for anything - thus no rejection. >>> You have said that, upon enlightenment, we will realise samsara was actually nibbana all along. >>> I disagree with this, and FYI so would Thanissaro Bhikkhu. >>>>>> In other words (to use my words), the teaching of conditioned dhammas was just a strategy to get us through a difficult period. > >>> Do you believe in absolute truth, reality, outside of what is seen/heard/sensed or cognized? Do you have DIRECT perception of that? > > Ken H > > PS: *I hope I got that right (about anatta being meant as a joke). >>> No. If you are refering to Alex, then I've said that some material in DN11 and such suttas could be a joke on Brahmin Cosmology and deluded Brahma. >>>>>>>> But if I have got it all wrong I will be only too happy to apologise. >>>>>>>>>> For your own benefit, please apologize about what you have said regarding Thanissaro Bhikkhu. ====== Not on account of his views, learning, or knowledge do the skilled here, Nanda, call one a sage. Those who live disarmed, undesiring, untroubled: those, I say, are called sages. Whatever priests & contemplatives describe purity in terms of views & learning, describe purity in terms of precepts & practices, describe purity in terms of manifold ways: none of them, living there in that way, I tell you, have crossed over birth & aging. I don't say that all priests & contemplatives are shrouded in birth & aging. Those here who've abandoned what's seen, heard, & sensed, precepts & practices — all — who've abandoned their manifold ways - again, all — who, comprehending craving, are effluent-free: they are the ones, I tell you, who've crossed over the flood. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/snp/snp.5.07.than.html Best wishes, Alex #87391 From: "Tep" Date: Mon Jun 23, 2008 5:15 pm Subject: Re: Commentaries dhammanusarin Dear Alex (and, of course, KenH), - I am wondering why Ken H. has not responded to your remarks below. > Alex: > Why should a person read what this or that monk has said in the > commentaries? Today we have, Thank Buddha, suttas in DN, MN, SN, AN. > > Read The Bhagavat Himself. Why settle for commentaries? Do you really > think that they could explain it better (or equally) than Lord Buddha > himself? > T: Ken H. told me recently that the suttas were difficult to understand, unlike the Abhidhamma books. He even cited an example in the Suttanta-pitaka about how monks found the Lord's lecture so confusing that they had to seek help from some Elders (who were arahant). What is your advice on how the suttas should be read? Tep === #87392 From: "Tep" Date: Mon Jun 23, 2008 5:38 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Paramattha one, multiple, or ultimately none? dhammanusarin Dear KenH (Alex, Howard), - I find your post below amusing. =================== [Post #87388] Hi Howard, Best of luck with your knee operation. Quite seriously, I suggest you don't read the following post from me until you have recovered from the op. It will only depress you. Bookmark here: or maybe just delete now. :-) --------------------------------------------------------------------- <. . .> H: > I'll just say that I do very much like this post of yours, Alex. :-) --------------------------------------------------------------------- KH: I wonder why you liked it. There was nothing in it that appealed to me in the least. As far as I can tell Alex is not interested in the same Dhamma that I am interested in. He is of the Thanissaro persuasion except he actually goes a step further. They both say the Buddha did not intend us to take anatta literally, but whereas Thanissaro says the Buddha taught anatta as a strategy (to stop us thinking when we should be meditating) Alex says the Buddha taught anatta as a joke.* They both believe nibbana to be the destination of our eternal souls. And good luck to them! But how could anyone even begin to discuss the true Dhamma with people who are thinking in such a way? ================= That accusation sounds familiar. Tep === #87393 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Jun 23, 2008 6:04 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Paramattha one, multiple, or ultimately none? buddhatrue Hi Ken H. (and Alex), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi Howard, > > Best of luck with your knee operation. Quite seriously, I suggest you > don't read the following post from me until you have recovered from > the op. It will only depress you. > > Bookmark here: or maybe just delete now. :-) Recently, I and Ven. P were accused of wrong speech. This was because we spoke strongly against the teachings of K. Sujin using specific examples. But, when I read this post of yours, I think that this is really an example of wrong speech. You write with such derision, hatred, and malice toward Ven. Thanissaro and Alex that it is shocking to me (and I don't get shocked very easily). Additionally, you don't say anything specific; all you give are innuendos and snide remarks as a form of attack. That is wrong speech. Granted, I also don't agree with the manner in which Thanissaro teaches anatta. Do you see me making snide remarks about him at every available opportunity? No. I wrote to the web owner of accesstoinsight.org and expressed my dissatisfaction with certain inaccuracies in an article. This feedback got to Thanissaro and he revised the article. I did something specific; I didn't just sit back and gripe and moan and complain. Your obvious hatred for Thanissaro is not appropriate for the circumstances. Many people have many different interpretations of anatta (it and DO are very complex), so there is no reason to put Thanissaro at the stake because you disagree with him. And your attacks of Alex are unjustified as well. All you do is lump him with Thanissaro and then proclaim them, and all of their kind, to be evil and destroying the Dhamma. Well, do you have any specifics? How could anyone respond to such vehement innuendo? This is what what I would refer to as wrong speech, not what I and Ven. P wrote about K. Sujin. Metta, James #87394 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Mon Jun 23, 2008 6:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: akusala cetasika - ditthi and vicikiccha egberdina Hi Lukas, 2008/6/23 szmicio : > Dear Nina, > > but I still not understand. > > When is seeing, it sees a visible object , but I dont know that. > There is a color, a shape and a thinking about what is seen. > > But seeing sees just only rupa.and pannja just know it. > Is really seeing sees a color or shape? Or maybe there are diffrent > cittas which know a color? > > > What is diffrence between pannati and ditthi? > When I am thinking "This is a ball" is it a ditthi? > When I am thinking "All those states are permanent" is it a ditthi? > If you question what you have already seen, you see doubt. If you see the following, you see what the Buddha sees. SN12:61 ..... this body composed of the four great elements is seen standing for a year, two years, three, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, a hundred years or more. But what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another. Cheers Herman #87395 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Mon Jun 23, 2008 6:41 pm Subject: Re: stories. [dsg] Vism.XVII,270 egberdina Hi Mike, 2008/6/22 m. nease : > Hi Nina, > > Right you are IMHO. The least amount of aversion in any form is a red flag for delusion, even without thinking of 'them' or 'us'. If only the > far more serious danger of attachment was so obviously unwholesome (who complains about pleasant feelings?). But of course without attachment > (to their absence or opposite), how could contacts with concepts (such as offenses, rude people and so on) condition aversion? These aren't > painful sense contacts such as burns or foul smells. So conceptual thinking isn't the problem at all--the problem is ta.nhaa. "Going beyond > discursive thinking" etc. does absolutely nothing to eradicate the underlying problem (the second noble truth). You write this with great conviction. If you could quote some suttas that confirm that an absence of discursive thinking plays absolutely no role in the 8 Fold Noble Path, then I could perhaps understand your conviction. At the very best--and that's > VERY rare--basically unattainable for laypeople--it temporarily suppresses unpleasant feelings, and at its worst (far, far more common) > strengthening conceit, inflexibility (amudutaa), delusion etc., etc. So it seems to me anyway, and this seems to me very consistent with the > texts and my own experience. Which texts are these, Mike? And if your own experience bears this out, would you allow for the possibility that it is your absorption in these very texts that is the problem for you? Allow me to suggest that your inability to go beyond discursive thinking is a red flag in optima forma. Cheers Herman #87396 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Jun 23, 2008 6:57 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Paramattha one, multiple, or ultimately none? kenhowardau Hi James, --------- <. . .> J: > > And your attacks of Alex are unjustified as well. All you do is > lump him with Thanissaro and then proclaim them, and all of their > kind, to be evil and destroying the Dhamma. Well, do you have any > specifics? How could anyone respond to such vehement innuendo? > This is what what I would refer to as wrong speech, --------- I assume you are referring to my post #87388. The subject heading is the same, but I can't see any similarities between what you are accusing me of and what I actually wrote. Ken H #87397 From: "Alex" Date: Mon Jun 23, 2008 7:18 pm Subject: How to handle suttas, path to awakening, mere speculations truth_aerator Dear Tep and KenH, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep" wrote: > Dear Alex (and, of course, KenH), - > > I am wondering why Ken H. has not responded to your remarks below. > Maybe he didn't find a good answer. > > T: Ken H. told me recently that the suttas were difficult to > understand, unlike the Abhidhamma books. >>>> I agree. Suttas have such an originality in thought, depth, pragmatism and manysidedness that they most definately are hard to understand. But what is even harder is to realize that they ask one to get out of comfort zone and SEE for the destruction of taints to happen. It is easy to simply read something handed to you on a plate, it is much harder for one to REALIZE magga-phala. > > What is your advice on how the suttas should be read? > Tep > === Read ALL of them. All the suttas found in 4 Nikayas + first couple of books in KN. If you don't understand some suttas, make a note and return to them when you've read the rest of the suttas. See about what issues and things are constantly mentioned. The more frequently the topic is mentioned and in more pitakas, the more important it is. While there most definately are later additions within some suttas, when you read plenty of suttas, you'll most likely be able to spot them. If for some reason you can't read all the suttas (about 4,500 pages) you could use the Index or search function and search for things like: Wisdom, Insight, 4NT, DO, stream entry, Arahatship, views, wrong views, etc. Note the similiarities. Read how people got awakened (Sariputta, MahaMoggalana, Ananda, Anathapindika), and try to follow that path. Recently I've really liked the Parayanavagga — The Chapter on the Way to the Far Shore http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/snp/index.html#vagga-5 And I also really love the suttas on Right View such as: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/snp/snp.3.12.than.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.009.than.html =============================== Then Ven. Pavittha said to Ven. Musila, "Musila, my friend, putting aside conviction, putting aside preference, putting aside tradition, putting aside reasoning through analogies, putting aside an agreement through pondering views: Do you have truly personal knowledge that, 'From birth as a requisite condition come aging & death'?" "Yes, Pavittha my friend. Putting aside conviction... preference... tradition... reasoning through analogies... an agreement through pondering views, I do have truly personal knowledge that, 'From birth as a requisite condition come aging & death.'" (Similarly with 'From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth'... 'From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming'... 'From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance'... 'From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving'... 'From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling'... 'From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact'... 'From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media'... 'From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form'... 'From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness.') (Similarly with 'From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth'... 'From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming'... 'From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance'... 'From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving'... 'From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling'... 'From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact'... 'From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media'... 'From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&- form'... 'From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness.') "Then, Ven. Musila, you are an arahant whose fermentations are ended." When this was said, Ven. Musila was silent. [alex: sign of agreement] http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.068.than.html KenH, Scott, Nina, Sukinder, Sarah, Jon "Putting aside conviction... preference... tradition... reasoning through analogies... an agreement through pondering views" do you have truly personal knowledge that, N8P is momentary cetasikas? 72 rather than 71, 73, 75 or 100 Dhammas? 24, not 5 or 12 conditioned relations? Jhana and all these meditation exercises not required for Ariyahood? etc etc. Affirmative answers to the above or questions found in MN9, Snp3.12, or on Dependent Origination - would signify Ariyahood. Mere "conviction... preference... tradition... reasoning through analogies... an agreement through pondering views" isn't direct enough for full Ariyahood (stream & higher). A certain monk went to another monk and, on arrival, said to him, "To what extent, my friend, is a monk's vision said to be well-purified?" "When a monk discerns, as it actually is, the origination & passing away of the six media of sensory contact, my friend, it is to that extent that his vision is said to be well-purified." "When a monk discerns, as it actually is, the origination & passing away of the five clinging-aggregates, When a monk discerns, as it actually is, the origination & passing away of the four great elements [earth, water, wind, & fire], When a monk discerns, as it actually is, that whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation, my friend, it is to that extent that his vision is said to be well-purified." ... The route by which they had come stands for the noble eightfold path: right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.204.than.html Again, the above MUST be DIRECT PERCEPTIONS. Any of the above can bring one to full Ariyahood (stream and above) if "Putting aside conviction... preference... tradition... reasoning through analogies... an agreement through pondering views" one has truly personal knowledge of that. Best wishes, Alex #87398 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Mon Jun 23, 2008 7:22 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sangiiti Corner egberdina Hi connie, 2008/6/23 connie : > Dear Nina, > > N: Where are the shadows, can't remember. > > C: I think I first saw them in the SPD & thought it was KS's own really striking imagery, but no - [Q. of K.Milinda, The Cutting off of Perplexity, 7th Division: II.7.5: Simultaneous Arising in Different Places {Miln. 82-3}]Nagasena asked: "What do you think, your majesty, if two birds fly in the sky and one sits in a high tree, and the other in a low tree; if these happen at the same time, the shadow of which one would appear on the ground first, and which one later?" So, for one thing, no intermediate state / bardo between the dying- and rebirth-consciousness involving 'new' name-and-form; but also I guess it's ok to say kamma is a shadow. > And no! I don't want Dr James scowling at me. I'll try not to ask too much. I remember discussing this Q with KenH years ago. The speed of light is finite, which of course noone realised back then. No harm done. But without knowing about some means of transmission that has an infinite speed, it may be safest to not speculate about intermediate states. Because you may not have Dr James on your back, but you will have Dr Einstein to deal with here :-) Cheers Herman #87399 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Mon Jun 23, 2008 7:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Brief Thoughts on Translating 'Vi~n~nanam Anidassana' egberdina Hi Howard, 2008/6/23 : > Hi, all - > > There are various renderings of 'anidassana' in 'vi~n~nanam anidassana', > including "unmanifestive," "featureless," "signless, and "boundless." > The word 'nidassana' suggests a delimiting, pointing out, or > delineating. Accordingly, the way I like to think of 'anidassana' is as meaning > "non-delimiting" or "seamless," so that instead of translating 'vi~n~nanam > anidassana' by 'boundless consciousness', I would sooner choose 'seamless > consciousness', though I would actually prefer 'presence' to 'consciousness' there, > because I identify the phrase with nibbana, and I consider the seamlessness to > put it beyond both subject and object, as no more a knowing than a known, and > utterly beyond ordinary, sense-media consciousness. Thus, my preferred > translation of the phrase 'vi~n~nanam anidassana' is 'seamless presence'. I'd like to wish you well with the impending surgery, and a speedy recovery. With regard to vi~n~nanam anidassana, could I ask you to post one or two references to where the term is used in the texts. I looked only briefly under jhanas and couldn't find anything there. Thanks in advance Cheers Herman