#87600 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Jun 28, 2008 3:29 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: response to hate mail etc - ... Credibility buddhatrue Hi Dieter, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Dieter Möller wrote: > > Hi James, > > you wrote: > > 'James: Well, that's a pretty low blow. :-( I noticed that you didn't read anything I referenced; you didn't even skim it; you just wrote another post repeating what you had written earlier. > > D: well.. a soft form of censure ;-) > I mentioned my intention to have a look into the links.. > nevertheless ,isn't it usual practise that one is at least quoting some from the material requested to read? James: I normally do quote material to be considered, but his subject is too vast for me to quote little snippets and to do it justice. You have to read a lot to get the big picture. Believe me, I used to think that Theravada was the bee's knees, but now I know better. I only know better because I have read a lot. > > The repetition was necessary , because you seemed not to agree that Theravada, the teaching of the Elders, is that what has been laid down in the Pali Canon, the Tipitaka (all commentaries secondary). James: I didn't know that that was the issue. I thought the issue was: Does Theravada represent the original teaching of the Buddha? I say no and you say yes. As far as elders composing the Tipitaka, I thought we were in agreement that they did. > > with Metta Dieter Metta, James #87601 From: "Alex" Date: Sat Jun 28, 2008 3:33 pm Subject: Citta & Cetasika = Why are they different? truth_aerator Hello dear Abhidhammikas, Since citta cannot be without cetasikas, why two categories rather than one (lets call it nama for example)? For example: lobhamulacittani (citta rooted in greed) 1) accompanied by joy, associated with wrong view, unprompted. Joy is a cetasika, so is wrong view, so is unprompted (volition, attention, or some other cetasika) How can "Citta" (vinnana in suttas) be a different "ultimate reality"? Furthermore, in the suttas we have many passages saying in different ways that consciousness (citta in Abh) is inseparatible (or based, or dependent on) from what is called "cetasika & rupa". Why the duplication? Best wishes, Alex #87602 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jun 28, 2008 11:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditionality: Is it citta, cetasika, or rupa? upasaka_howard Hi, Alex - In a message dated 6/28/2008 5:38:11 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, truth_aerator@... writes: Hi Howard, Abhidhammikas, and all --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > Hi, Alex - > > In a message dated 6/28/2008 4:47:55 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > truth_aerator@... writes: > > Hello all, > > > To which paramattha dhamma does Conditionality belong? > > Is it conditioned or unconditioned? > ============================= > Conditionality isn't a dhamma. There is no thing that is conditionality. We use the term 'conditionality' to refer to that fact that some dhammas are conditions for others. That's all. One needs to be wary of nominalizations that reify; i.e., that create "things" when there are none. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What separates dhamma that is and isn't a condition? ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: EVERY dhamma is a condition for some other dhammas. Those dhammas that arise in dependence on conditions are the sankhata dhammas, the conditioned dhammas, and they are all dhammas except for nibbana, the sole asankhata dhamma. ------------------------------------------------------- Why is citta, cetasika, rupa or Nibbana is considered dhamma - when conditionality isn't? ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Sights, sounds, tastes, odors, and bodily sensations actually occur as elements of experience, and knowing, feeling, etc are mental activities that actually occur. Conditionality, however, is just an idea, based on the fact that when certain dhammas occur, so do (or will) other ones. Conditionality as a "thing" is just a way of speaking (and thinking). ---------------------------------------------------- We indirectly see that there is conditionality and at this board it is almost #1 topic said by beloved Abhidhammikas. So what exactly is conditionality? Does it exist or not? If it doesn't, than how do we explain conditionality and whats written in Patthana? ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Conditionality does NOT exist. There is no such thing. But it is true that dhammas serve as conditions for other dhammas. Let me try to clarify reification by means of metaphorical examples: When we release a stone, it falls to the ground. But there is no actual thing that is "its falling". What would that falling be? Can we touch the falling? We *say* that we see it, but all we really see is the stone at various positions as time goes by, and we use the term 'falling' in reference to that. It is true that the stone falls, but nowhere to be found in the stone is its falling. George is heavier than his sister Katherine. What sort of thing is "his being heavier than her"? There is no such thing! He simply is heavier than her. The relationship holds, but there is no thing that is his being heavier than her. [Mentally creating that is emulating God! ;-)) God said "Let there be light," and there was light. This is creation from speech alone, this nominalization. It is just speaking, and not reality.] ----------------------------------------------------- Best wishes, Alex ============================ With metta, Howard #87603 From: "Alex" Date: Sat Jun 28, 2008 3:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditionality: Is it citta, cetasika, or rupa? truth_aerator Dear Howard and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > Howard: > EVERY dhamma is a condition for some other dhammas. Those dhammas that arise in dependence on conditions are the sankhata dhammas, the conditioned dhammas, and they are all dhammas except for nibbana, the sole asankhata dhamma. > ------------------------------------------------------- > What about kiriyacittani (functional consciousness) or consciousness that do not produce kammic results? These cittas are Paramattha dhamma. What about Arahants citta? Is it classified as dhamma? > > > > Why is citta, cetasika, rupa or Nibbana is considered dhamma - when > conditionality isn't? > ----------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Sights, sounds, tastes, odors, and bodily sensations actually occur as elements of experience, and knowing, feeling, etc are mental activities that actually occur. Conditionality, however, is just an idea, based on the fact that when certain dhammas occur, so do (or will) other ones. Conditionality as a "thing" is just a way of speaking (and thinking). > ---------------------------------------------------- If conditionality is an idea, does that mean that if some creature don't believe in it (or simply doesn't know) then conditionality doesn't happen to that creature? > ------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: Conditionality does NOT exist. There is no such thing. But it is true that dhammas serve as conditions for other dhammas. >>>> One of the definition of existence is that it performs a function. While it is true that "conditionality" isn't a material thing that can be isolated itself in a test tube - functions DO exist. >>>>>>>>> Let me try to clarify reification by means of metaphorical examples: When we release a stone, it falls to the ground. But there is no actual thing that is "its falling". What would that falling be? >>>>>>> Gravity + motion . >>>>>>>> Can we touch the falling? >>>>>>>>> We can feel the pull of gravity. In space, outside of gravity, the object is weightless. >>>>>>>>>> George is heavier than his sister Katherine. What sort of thing is "his being heavier than her"? >>>>>>>>> There are two bodies of mass. One has more mass than the other. Best wishes, Alex #87604 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Sat Jun 28, 2008 5:13 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditionality: Is it citta, cetasika, or rupa? egberdina Hi Alex and Howard, 2008/6/29 Alex : > Hello all, > > To which paramattha dhamma does Conditionality belong? > > Is it conditioned or unconditioned? > Good questions! Conditionality, what is it? It is the relationships between individual dhammas. A dhamma, what is it? It is a product of analysis. It is an ideal object, an object made by thought. It results from taking a snapshot of what is never static, and separating out from that snapshot something which is never separate. A dhamma does not exist. If conditionality is the relationships between individual dhammas, and individual dhammas do not exist, then what is conditionality? Like Howard said, it doesn't exist. Cheers Herman #87605 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Sat Jun 28, 2008 5:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Metta, Ch 9, no 2. egberdina Hi Jon, 2008/6/27 jonoabb : > Hi Herman (and Nina) > > The words frequently used in the suttas to explain the teaching on > kamma are that a person is "heir to his deeds". > > I understand this to mean that: > - a person who experiences unpleasant painful bodily feeling (if that > is what is being postulated in your example) does so only to the > extent that previous deeds within the same stream of consciousness > will support, and > - where a person causes harm to another, there will at some time in > the future be the experience the fruits of that deed in terms of > unpleasant experience through the sense-doors. > > But this does not mean that the person experiencing the results is > "responsible for" those experiences. The experiences happen in > accordance with the law of kamma (and not otherwise), that's all. And, presumably, the person who causes harm is not responsible for their actions either. Their actions happened according to conditions only, right? > >> Another question is this. It is strongly held in some quarters that >> nothing outside of a "stream of consciousness" can affect it. But in >> killing another being, is not the killer directly causing the arising >> of cuti-citta in another stream? > > According to the teaching on kamma/vipaka, a would-be killer could not > succeed in bringing about the death of his intended victim unless the > latter's past deeds were such as to support death at that time and in > that manner. > > In other posts you have emphasised the importance of "observable > data/relationships". The idea, I think, is that only what can be > empirically observed can be taken as verified. > > The problem with such a hypothesis is that it cannot accommodate the > situation of conditions that have effect beyond the span of a single > lifetime (in this respect it suffers from the same limitations as > "scientific proof"). According to the teachings, kamma is the domain of Buddhas only. The problem is that we are not Buddhas. At best we can carefully scrutinise who said what and when about kamma, and decide on that basis whether it is of value, IMO. Cheers Herman #87606 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Sat Jun 28, 2008 5:28 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Metta, Ch 9, no 2. egberdina Hi Jon, 2008/6/27 jonoabb : > Hi Alex (and Herman) > >> > Another question is this. It is strongly held in some quarters that >> > nothing outside of a "stream of consciousness" can affect it. But in >> > killing another being, is not the killer directly causing the >> arising >> > of cuti-citta in another stream? >> > >> >> Good observation. Is this what DSG Abhidhammikas believe? > > This is something raised by Herman and, as far as I know, not > previously brought up on this list. (Perhaps Herman could share with > us where the idea comes from.) I don't recall having read or heard it anywhere else, so I'll happily take the blame for it :-) Cheers Herman #87607 From: "Alex" Date: Sat Jun 28, 2008 5:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditionality: Is it citta, cetasika, or rupa? truth_aerator Hi Herman, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > > Hi Alex and Howard, ... It results from taking a snapshot of what is never static, and separating out from that snapshot something which is never separate. >>> What is that which is never static? What is something which is never separate? Best wishes, Alex #87608 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Sat Jun 28, 2008 6:14 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] How does rebirth happen? cuticitta--> - ? --> patisandhicitta egberdina Hi Howard, 2008/6/28 : > > One more thing, though, that I will add to this discussion of > continuation of experience after death is a pragmatic matter that I consider to be of > extreme importance: In my opinion, given that, typically, relatively minimal > progress towards awakening occurs in a single lifetime, if there were truly no > continuation of experience beyond death, then death would be, > unquestionably, an instantaneous and final nibbana, death would mark the end of dukkha, and > the Dhamma would be *quite* an irrelevancy. I do enjoy the intercultural snippets you provide :-) I understand what you are saying. But allow me to put what you have said in a slightly different way, to perhaps highlight some difficulties with it. If there were continuation of experience in any extended moment, then that would be so from a unifying perspective. Consciousness of this present is related to consciousness of that past through "me", the locus that constitutes the stream of experience. This "me" IS it's ever expanding past. If my past (the past of me) does indeed extend across the boundary of death, what do the teachings on anatta mean, and to whom are they relevant? Cheers Herman #87609 From: "connie" Date: Sat Jun 28, 2008 6:45 pm Subject: Re: Sangiitisutta corner. Commentary Part I. nichiconn Dear Scott, Interesting things, Introductions. I keep remembering that 2 of our Englishers remarked on the 'thrown aloft-er' name but not with enough curiosity or whatever it takes to dig into the commentarial paa.li myself. More often, I remember Anandajoti's footnote in his Udaana translation about the "viharati" in the beginning of so many suttas being "dwells" - something about the historical present. I read in the Ud-a about how people "with their arms and legs drawn together, heard Dhamma, with due care, with attentive ear". Can't say much about the Mallas other than what anyone finds easily enough in DPPN. Had it been an occasion for a progressive talk from the Buddha? I just think of that because it is hard to appreciate the virtues of renunciation / detachment from the beginning (let alone talk about being free from sloth and torpor!). I don't think that means I shouldn't read, which beats writing -- she smiles, having stopped reading Anandajoti at: "The forgetful, speaking unsuitable words, (though) appearing to be wise, Stretching their mouths as much as they want, are led on by what they don't understand". Nina'd already answered you, so when Ud-a said << With his (own) mind (cetasaa): with consciousness associated with his Buddha-eye; for knowledge is defined under the headings of consciousness, the meaning being therefore with his knowledge as to the biases and latent tendencies (of beings) and with his knowledge as to the higher or lower state (in the development) of the faculties (of beings) >>, I just kept reading and thinking about the neat phrase: "attainment of the potential"... that's some best wishes! Another phrase I love: < non-pasturage, even in a dream>. Another Masefield (Udaana Cy p.681 n.387) sangiiti reminder: < Cp Diii243; DA 1034 explains kaaya (body) here as samuuha, collection, and states that eye-consciousness is consciousness, based on the eye's sensitivity (cakkhupasaada - cp Ud-a 73 above), of the ripening of that which is skilled and unskilled. > Another footnote talks about "karmic fluff" and one the "trickling down of a karmic remnant". The text quotes Ap-a and I copy only: 124. ..."for karma does not perish" and 126: < When the fighting contest was in progress, the Mallas' son I foiled; through the ripening of that deed I have (throughout) had backache >. Another: p.790 That which is virtuous is done with ease by the virtuous (sukara.m saadhunaa saadhu): [318] since it effects (saadheti) well-being for oneself and others, it is that which is virtuous (saadhu), that which is right practice. There is a great, long section on "What is the Tathaagata's knowledge consisting of the attainment of the Great Compassion?" (p.319) peace, connie #87610 From: "Alex" Date: Sat Jun 28, 2008 6:52 pm Subject: Some ontological views I have & Dhamma truth_aerator Hello all, a) There is an objective reality. What I mean by that is that it must have at least two properties i) percieved by multiple subjects ii) Mind Independent (no control through mind like in lucid dream) iii) Has its own properties (sabhava), although they may be mispercieved - > b) Knowledge of an object, and object itself are different. Logical paradoxes are our fault, not fault of the world. c) We have limited perception of objective reality due to physical limitations of physical organs. Ex: our eyes see only a limited amount of colors, we hear only a limited range of sounds, huge objects or too small objects may not be seen (at least not completely or not without extra help) etc. d) Knowledge about thing-in-itself can be partially right, or in some cases totally wrong, and mistakes are possible as knowledge of an object, and object itself are different. ========================= Now I have a question to those knowledgeble. 1) Can a person develop abhinna and percieve someone else's feelings, perceptions, volition, consciousness? 2) Are these things without "mind's control" ? If the both are yes, then not only rupa but other aggregates would count as objective reality (without a subject)... So Buddha was a total Realist! It is too easy to refute views of idealism, global skepticism, or those who posit sense-data only. Few ex: We are all realists when crossing a busy street. According to Global Scepticism jumping off the 10th floor is as likely to get you to the 11th floor as walking up the stairs or taking an elevator. The sun didn't rotate around the Earth when everyone believed it did so and the world did exist when there was mindless single cell organisms evolving (or even prior to that). Thus idealism is false. You can't control the "external world" such as walking through a wall by imagining it to be an empty space, or by imagining yourself to be an immortal Emperor of the Universe, etc. Some may say that "unconscious forces" prevent some things to be changed, but pragmatically it is no different than realism in the sense of control. Ignorance of Kamma, 4NT or DO is no excuse! They still exist whether you believe in them or not. So realism is what we are left with. ---- Best wishes, Alex #87611 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jun 28, 2008 2:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditionality: Is it citta, cetasika, or rupa? upasaka_howard Hi, Alex - In a message dated 6/28/2008 6:54:46 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, truth_aerator@... writes: Dear Howard and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > Howard: > EVERY dhamma is a condition for some other dhammas. Those dhammas that arise in dependence on conditions are the sankhata dhammas, the conditioned dhammas, and they are all dhammas except for nibbana, the sole asankhata dhamma. > ------------------------------------------------------- > What about kiriyacittani (functional consciousness) or consciousness that do not produce kammic results? These cittas are Paramattha dhamma. What about Arahants citta? Is it classified as dhamma? -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Functional cetana is not kamma, but it still has consequences. Did not the Buddha's intentions and actions have consequences? When the Buddha willed it, did not his arm rise and his mouth open? As for whether an arahant's consciousness is a dhamma, even nibbana is a dhamma (a. k. a. phenomenon). ------------------------------------------------- > > > > Why is citta, cetasika, rupa or Nibbana is considered dhamma - when > conditionality isn't? > ----------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Sights, sounds, tastes, odors, and bodily sensations actually occur as elements of experience, and knowing, feeling, etc are mental activities that actually occur. Conditionality, however, is just an idea, based on the fact that when certain dhammas occur, so do (or will) other ones. Conditionality as a "thing" is just a way of speaking (and thinking). > ---------------------------------------------------- If conditionality is an idea, does that mean that if some creature don't believe in it (or simply doesn't know) then conditionality doesn't happen to that creature? ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I said that dhammas serve as conditions for the arising of other dhammas. That is true, whether one believes it or not. (Conditionality, however, is not a dhamma. It is an idea/term referring to certain relations holding among dhammas.) ------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: Conditionality does NOT exist. There is no such thing. But it is true that dhammas serve as conditions for other dhammas. >>>> One of the definition of existence is that it performs a function. ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: There is no thing performing the function of dhammas serving as conditions for other dhammas. It is simply a fact that some dhammas serve as conditions for other dhammas, and we call that fact "conditionality". --------------------------------------------------------- While it is true that "conditionality" isn't a material thing that can be isolated itself in a test tube - functions DO exist. ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: If you very much want there to be a thing called "conditionality," I won't spoil it for you. ;-) -------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>>> Let me try to clarify reification by means of metaphorical examples: When we release a stone, it falls to the ground. But there is no actual thing that is "its falling". What would that falling be? >>>>>>> Gravity + motion . >>>>>>>> Can we touch the falling? >>>>>>>>> We can feel the pull of gravity. In space, outside of gravity, the object is weightless. >>>>>>>>>> George is heavier than his sister Katherine. What sort of thing is "his being heavier than her"? >>>>>>>>> There are two bodies of mass. One has more mass than the other. -------------------------------------------- Howard: Alex, reification is a tough habit to break, but I think it very useful to do so. ------------------------------------------- Best wishes, Alex ======================= With metta, Howard #87612 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Jun 28, 2008 7:17 pm Subject: Vism.XVII,273-276 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XVII [SECTION C. THE WHEEL OF BECOMING] 273. [(i) The Wheel] Now here at the end sorrow, etc., are stated. Consequently, the ignorance stated at the beginning of the Wheel of Becoming thus, 'With ignorance as condition there are formations', is established by the sorrow and so on. So it should accordingly be understood that: Becoming's Wheel reveals no known beginning; No maker, no experiencer there; Void with a twelvefold voidness, and nowhere It ever halts; forever it is spinning. 274. But (1) how is ignorance established by sorrow, etc.? (2) How has this Wheel of Becoming no known beginning? (3) How is there no maker or experiencer there? (4) How is it void with twelvefold voidness? 275. 1. Sorrow, grief and despair are inseparable from ignorance; and lamentation is found in one who is deluded. So, firstly, when these are established, ignorance is established. Furthermore, 'With the arising of cankers there is the arising of ignorance' (M.i,54) is said, and with the arising of cankers these things beginning with sorrow come into being. How? 276. Firstly, sorrow about separation from sense desires as object has its arising in the canker of sense desire, according as it is said: 'If, desiring and lusting, his desires elude him, He suffers as though an arrow had pierced him' (Sn.767), and according as it is said: 'Sorrow springs from sense desires' (Dh. 215). *********************** 273. bhavacakkakathaa yasmaa panettha sokaadayo avasaane vuttaa, tasmaa yaa saa avijjaapaccayaa sa"nkhaaraati evametassa bhavacakkassa aadimhi vuttaa, saa, sokaadiihi avijjaa, siddhaa bhavacakkamaviditaadimida.m. kaarakavedakarahita.m, dvaadasavidhasu~n~nataasu~n~na.m.. satata.m samita.m pavattatiiti veditabba.m. 274. katha.m panettha sokaadiihi avijjaa siddhaa, kathamida.m bhavacakka.m aviditaadi, katha.m kaarakavedakarahita.m, katha.m dvaadasavidhasu~n~nataasu~n~nanti ce. 275. ettha hi sokadomanassupaayaasaa avijjaaya aviyogino, paridevo ca naama muu.lhassaati tesu taava siddhesu siddhaa hoti avijjaa. apica ``aasavasamudayaa avijjaasamudayo´´ti (ma0 ni0 1.103) vutta.m. aasavasamudayaa cete sokaadayo honti. katha.m? 276. vatthukaamaviyoge taava soko kaamaasavasamudayaa hoti. yathaaha -- ``tassa ce kaamayaanassa, chandajaatassa jantuno. te kaamaa parihaayanti, sallaviddhova ruppatii''ti.. (su0 ni0 773). yathaa caaha -- ``kaamato jaayati soko´´ti. (dha0 pa0 215). #87613 From: "Alex" Date: Sat Jun 28, 2008 7:43 pm Subject: Is reification in all cases bad? truth_aerator Hi Howard, >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: >Howard: >Alex, reification is a tough habit to break, but I think it very >useful to do so. > ------------------------------------------- It depends what you mean by reification. If you mean taking things as self, permanent or pleasurable - then that sort of reification bad. However, IMHO, it is good thing to reify things such as pain, craving, birth&death, kamma as something that really really exist (whether you wish it or not). Then there is really really a pragmatic reason to make them cease. Of course outside (or inside) of real dhammas, there isn't a real person or Atta or Self. Imagine if a person standing on a road thinking "oh those cars moving towards me at 70 MPH are nothing. Just a phenomena of my mind." - is that a smart thing to do? What will happen? Or another thing: Suffering is merely an illusion... Does that POV develop disspassion (or sense of urgency to abandon suffering) or not? Best wishes, Alex #87614 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:07 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Is reification in all cases bad? upasaka_howard Hi, Alex - In a message dated 6/28/2008 10:43:23 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, truth_aerator@... writes: Hi Howard, >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: >Howard: >Alex, reification is a tough habit to break, but I think it very >useful to do so. > ------------------------------------------- It depends what you mean by reification. If you mean taking things as self, permanent or pleasurable - then that sort of reification bad. -------------------------------------------- Howard: Attributing self to anything is "bad," and attributing existence to a non-existent is "bad". These are basic errors. ------------------------------------------- However, IMHO, it is good thing to reify things such as pain, craving, birth&death, kamma as something that really really exist (whether you wish it or not). ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Pain is unpleasant bodily feeling, birth and death (of a being) are the initial and final instances of consciousness in a given realm of experience, and kamma is volition. These are all actual phenomena. Each is also nothing at all *in and of itself*. -------------------------------------------- Then there is really really a pragmatic reason to make them cease. Of course outside (or inside) of real dhammas, there isn't a real person or Atta or Self. Imagine if a person standing on a road thinking "oh those cars moving towards me at 70 MPH are nothing. Just a phenomena of my mind." - is that a smart thing to do? What will happen? ---------------------------------------------- Howard: When have I said that aggregations are nothing at all? I have said just the opposite. Each one is a collection of dhammas acting in concert and can be a condition for much pain and even death. --------------------------------------------- Or another thing: Suffering is merely an illusion... Does that POV develop disspassion (or sense of urgency to abandon suffering) or not? --------------------------------------------- Howard: Who holds that point of view? Not I. Suffering, when it occurs, is mental pain. It is a reality - fleeting, conditioned, but real. --------------------------------------------- Best wishes, Alex ======================= With metta, Howard #87615 From: "connie" Date: Sat Jun 28, 2008 8:18 pm Subject: Vism.XVII,273-276 nichiconn Path of Purity, pp.693-4 Ignorance is accomplished by sorrow and the like. Because sorrow and so on are mentioned last (in the formula), therefore that which comes first in the wheel of becoming: "Conditioned by ignorance, activities come to pass," namely: - This ignorance is by sorrow and such Others accomplished. This wheel of life Unknown in beginning {read aviditaadim ida.m}, bereft of one To do and feel, void through the void twelve parts, - should be understood to proceed continuously for ever. How "is ignorance accomplished by sorrow and such others"? How is "this wheel of life unknown in the beginning"? How "bereft of one to do and feel"? How "void through the void twelve parts"? Herein sorrow, grief, despair are not dissociated from ignorance. What is called lamentation occurs in a deluded person. Thus when these are effected, ignorance is effected. Further, it has been said that ignorance springs up through the origination of the cankers. And these states such as sorrow are due to the origination of the cankers. How? When disjointed from objective sense-desires, sorrow has the cankers of sense-desires for its origin. As it is said: Should sense-desires decrease in that person, Who makes of them a vehicle, who grows Excited over them, he just becomes Corruptible as though by arrow shot. {Sutta-Nipaata, verse 767.} And it has been said: "From sense-desire is sorrow born" {Dhammapada, verse 215}. #87616 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Sat Jun 28, 2008 8:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditionality: Is it citta, cetasika, or rupa? egberdina Hi Alex, 2008/6/29 Alex : > Hi Herman, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" > wrote: >> >> Hi Alex and Howard, > ... > It results from taking a snapshot of what is never static, > and separating out from that snapshot something which is never > separate. >>>> > > What is that which is never static? Consciousness. "But what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another." > What is something which is never separate? > Everything except for consciousness ie nibbana And what is consciousness? Any negation of nibbana ie consciousness is negation. Cheers Herman #87617 From: "Tep" Date: Sat Jun 28, 2008 8:36 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditionality: Is it citta, cetasika, or rupa? dhammanusarin Hi Upasaka Howard, - You wrote: As for whether an arahant's consciousness is a dhamma, even nibbana is a dhamma (a. k. a. phenomenon). T: If you said "reality", it would not cause confusion to me like "phenomenon". To me "phenomenon" means 'sankhata dhamma' because every phenomenon arises and then passes away. Tep === #87618 From: "reverendaggacitto" Date: Sat Jun 28, 2008 9:19 pm Subject: RE: Conditions for rebirth? reverendagga... Hi Everybody! i just thought that i would mention the fact that in the M.N.Sutta# 38 the Venerable Gotama is asked,:What are the conditions for rebirth? Would anybody care to offer what the 3 things mentioned are? Oh YES! before i forget!....... How is our meditation doing? With all the usual talk of rupas,panna,kusala,cittas etc.just how is our SAMADHI? as the only vehicle of Venerable Gotamas dhamma,of all the words in pali i can think of no word its equal. May the Buddhas, Deva and Angels bless ALL of you! bhikkhu/reverend aggacitto #87619 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat Jun 28, 2008 9:50 pm Subject: Q. [dsg] Re: Vism XX, 'Knowledge of What is/is not the Path' kenhowardau Hi Larry and Nina, Nice summary, Larry, and thank you Nina for filling in the details. I must admit I was prepared to leave the decads and octads (etc) in the too hard basket for a while, but, thanks to your efforts, that won't be necessary. It is good when doing these Vism. threads that we don't move on until we have a clear picture of what has been read. Or, at least, a clearer picture than before. I know I have seen these details several times - and forgotten them - but they get a little easier each time. Just don't test me on them! :-) Ken H #87620 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Sat Jun 28, 2008 10:06 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] How does rebirth happen? cuticitta--> - ? --> patisandhicitta egberdina Hi Alex, 2008/6/28 Alex : > Dear Herman, Howard and all, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > Herman: > I'm not sure I have understood you correctly here. What are the > kammic results you speak of? Are you proposing that the actions of a > being in one lifetime will determine their genetic makeup in a future > lifetime? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > Lets say that Adam's last moment of "consciousness" were negative, > negative cuti-citta. > > Lets say that the first moment of consciousness in a new > organism "Bob" is fairly similiar (as to appear to be a logical > continuation of Adam's type of consciousness). Bob has bad genes > and is born in a bad environment. The the first person perspective > continues from Adam to Bob. Of course it isn't Adam that is reborn, > just a similiar 1st person perspective. Kinda like when you dream and > the character can have everything totally different (body, feelings, > thoughts, perceptions, circumstances, etc) except for 1st person > perspective which remains constant. > These are interesting lines of thought. But I have two objections. The first one is that newborn babies do not have a first person perspective. The second one is that a first person perspective is based on memories. There is no first person perspective in a hyper-empirical state where there is only sense data. In the absence of memories, there is no I. >> > >> > c) The specific memories/skills/facts/ethics may for some reason >> > be "deactivated" at certain stages in life and may underpin a >> > person's "mental functions" not as specific memories but as inborn >> > abilities. >> > >> I think you are talking about Lamarckian evolution here. >>>>>>> > > No, I didn't imply this sort of (false) belief. I just wanted to show > how Kamma on a subjective level could work. Of course the "change" > from life to life can go upwards and downwards. It has nothing to do > with better survival. > > Logical continuation of: positive is positive, > of negative, negative. > > The materialistic expression of Kammic results may be > Bad: > a) Genes (leading to bad character traits, deformities, etc) > b) Environment (poverty, poor family country, kill-to-survive, land > where persecutions against your kind are widespread, you name it) > > Good: > a) Genes (leading to good character traits, physical gifts, etc) > b) Environment (abundance, rich family, everything comes on a golden > plate, fame, good status, you name it) I'm sorry, I just do not see a mechanism by which this would be possible. I'm happy for you to suggest such a mechanism. What I need to ask first, though, is why people believe in rebirth? What is so obvious to them, that I have not seen? Cheers Herman #87621 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 28, 2008 11:16 pm Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Re: Vism XX, 'Knowledge of What is/is not the Path' nilovg Dear Ken H, Op 29-jun-2008, om 6:50 heeft kenhowardau het volgende geschreven: > It is good when doing these Vism. threads that we don't move on until > we have a clear picture of what has been read. Or, at least, a clearer > picture than before. I know I have seen these details several times - > and forgotten them - but they get a little easier each time. ------- N: Reminds me of a text Rob K likes to quote: those with blunt faculties need details. We are not living in the Buddha's time, and thus we all need more details. That is why it is good to have commentaries. We can easily go the wrong way. When reading the Pali one may be puzzled, but then the Commentary also gives grammatical indications, like an extra m that is inserted. That is in our tetx of Vis. XVII. So, the commentaries help us in many ways and we can check this ourselves. Nina. #87622 From: "szmicio" Date: Sun Jun 29, 2008 12:01 am Subject: A simple Pali course for the beginner szmicio Could you give me any links to Pali courses? bye Lukas #87623 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Sun Jun 29, 2008 12:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:How does rebirth happen? cuticitta-->-?--> patisandhicitta egberdina Hi Alex, 2008/6/28 Alex : > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" > wrote: >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> I do not believe that there can be such a thing as undifferentiated >> awareness. It would be awareness that is unaware [of anything], a >> conscious unconsciousness. >>>>>>>>>>>> > > I didn't say this here. Of course unconscious consciousness and such > are contradictory and impossible word wrigglings. Sorry. I didn't mean to put words in your mouth :-) > What I've meant by 1st person perspective is a subjective feeling > of "I am". But I wonder if a general "I am" is not the same as consciousness without object? It is only when there is "I am this" that there is a subjective perspective [on an object]. I do not think there is such a thing as an objectless perspective. > > The sort of rebirth I am proposing with 1st person perspective can be > demonstrated thus: > > Reflect on what happened in dreams. You still had feeling "I am" > although it was not "I am Herman". Even though at THAT moment all > Herman's personality contents weren't present, the (delusive) > feeling "I AM" was. Could I just make the point that if you propose that only "I am" occurs from life to life, without any other context or content, then why call that rebirth? It is just birth, just like the fact that all babies have noses doesn't mean that noses are being reborn. Cheers Herman #87624 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jun 29, 2008 1:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] A simple Pali course for the beginner nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 29-jun-2008, om 9:01 heeft szmicio het volgende geschreven: > Could you give me any links to Pali courses? Especially at the home page you find grammars, etc.: < http://www.tipitaka.net At the top of the homepage you find green (or blue) bars, and with the cursor you have to touch it for drop downmenues with all the info about Pali. Grammars are there on line. Ask the moderator, Yong Peng, to help you to get all this info from the home page. There are not many posts, but one can always ask questions. Nina. #87625 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jun 29, 2008 1:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Is reification in all cases bad? nilovg Hi Howard and Alex, Op 29-jun-2008, om 5:07 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > However, IMHO, it is good thing to reify things such as pain, > craving, birth&death, kamma as something that really really exist > (whether you wish it or not). > ------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > Pain is unpleasant bodily feeling, birth and death (of a being) are > the > initial and final instances of consciousness in a given realm of > experience, > and kamma is volition. These are all actual phenomena. Each is also > nothing > at all *in and of itself*. ------- Very good, Howard. You are concerned about reification of citta and cetasikas which perform functions. There is a danger of misunderstanding when not enough details are known by us, dullwitted people. I mentioned the importance of details to Ken H. I should add an explanation. We hear: there is no self, but before we really understand, that takes a long time. Ken H had the example of kamma producing the senses. But we still take realities for self. Then we hear: also citta, heat, nutrition produce specific rupas other than those produced by kamma. How could we manipulate what is originated by different factors/ And then think of all the different conditions for nama, not just one. Each citta is conditioned in many ways. People say that the Buddha teaches: there is no soul, but this can be misunderstood. There is no lasting sould that is reborn, but there is citta. We need more details. Citta passes away as fast as a flash of lightning. We take sati and concentration for self, but they only arise when there are the appropriate conditions. We need to understand impermanence too to deepen the understanding of non-self, otherwise we still take citta and cetasikas for self. By the development of satipatthana we can come to know through direct experience what we studied in the texts. Nina. #87626 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Sun Jun 29, 2008 2:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:How does rebirth happen? cuticitta-->-?--> patisandhicitta egberdina Hi Suan, 2008/6/29 abhidhammika : > > > Thus, we now know the conditions for rebirth in light of > Pa.ticcasamuppaado taught by Gotma the Buddha, the Founder of > Theravaada Buddhism. > Thank you for your reply. Given that the Buddha did not found Theravada, I can only give as much weight to your argument as I can your conclusion. Cheers Herman #87627 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jun 29, 2008 3:44 am Subject: Back in Hong Kong.... sarahprocter... Dear Friends, We just arrived back a short while ago after a long journey and look forward to catching up with the discussions in the next couple of days now we have easy internet access again... Thanks to everyone for all the good correspondence while we've been away. Metta, Sarah (& Jon) #87628 From: "szmicio" Date: Sun Jun 29, 2008 4:05 am Subject: ekaggata cetasika and manasikara cetasika szmicio manasikara and ekaggata arise with each citta, but what function they has? The Buddha said that yoniso manasikara condition panja(right understanding), but is yoniso manasikara a cetasika or just pannati. I just considered yoniso manasikara as just this moment when we put our attention to things which are important.Example, when we put our attention to seeing or hearing. But can we really put attention anywhere? Or just yoniso manasikara arise with the citta? Bye Lukas #87629 From: "szmicio" Date: Sun Jun 29, 2008 4:17 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Letter from Lukas szmicio >N:Phassa is a cetasika arising with each citta. It is mental, it >'contacts' the object so that citta can experience is. But we can >say: when tangible object impinges on the bodysense and body- >consciousness arises, it is evident that there is phassa. But we >should not confuse it with physical contact. Dear Nina, thanks for correct me;> Regard to phassa I mean phassa as it is thought in paticcasamuppada, but i didnt know that it is a cetasika. In Paticcasamuppada 1. Avijja paccaya Sankhara: 2. Sankhara paccaya vinnana: 3. Vinnana paccaya nama-rupam: 4. Nama-rupa paccaya salayatana: 5. Salayatana paccaya phasso: 6. Phassa paccaya vedana: 7. Vedana paccaya tanha: 8. Tanha paccaya upadana: 9. Upadana paccaya bhavo: 10. Bhava paccaya jati So when there is nama and rupa there is always a contact of 6 senses. But i didn't know that is a mental , a cetasika. So phassa cetasika just 'contact' visible object with seeing and hearing with sound??? #87630 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jun 29, 2008 1:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditionality: Is it citta, cetasika, or rupa? upasaka_howard Hi, Tep - In a message dated 6/28/2008 11:36:22 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, tepsastri@... writes: Hi Upasaka Howard, - You wrote: As for whether an arahant's consciousness is a dhamma, even nibbana is a dhamma (a. k. a. phenomenon). T: If you said "reality", it would not cause confusion to me like "phenomenon". To me "phenomenon" means 'sankhata dhamma' because every phenomenon arises and then passes away. Tep =============================== I use 'phenomenon' for any unimagined element of experience. In my usage, 'phenomenon' and 'dhamma' are synonyms. With metta, Howard #87631 From: "Tep" Date: Sun Jun 29, 2008 6:52 am Subject: Re: Citta & Cetasika = Why are they different? dhammanusarin Hello Alex, (and other students of the Dhamma) - Since the Abhidhamma books are based on the Dhamma in the suttas, I think it is fair to say that those who study the Abhidhamma first and others who study the Suttas first both are students of the Dhamma. >A: > Since citta cannot be without cetasikas, why two categories rather > than one (lets call it nama for example)? > Why the duplication? Since nama cannot be without rupa, and vice versa, why the duplication? Of course, there is no duplication. Seeing each dhamma as separate helps the yogi to see the truths through comprehending conditions (paccayas) and the coming together of nama and rupa, citta and cetasika, as sankhara which is dukkha. Tep === #87632 From: "Tep" Date: Sun Jun 29, 2008 7:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditionality: Is it citta, cetasika, or rupa? dhammanusarin Dear Howard, - Thank you for responding. >Howard: > I use 'phenomenon' for any unimagined element of experience. > In my usage, 'phenomenon' and 'dhamma' are synonyms. > T: Please let me pursue it a little further. We know that delusion(moha) is a dhamma; but is it an unimagined element of experience? An experience of a delusive person is most of the time imagined, isn't it? Is 'nibbana' an element of experience of worldings? If so, how do you experience nibbana right now? Tep === #87633 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Sun Jun 29, 2008 7:24 am Subject: [dsg] Re:How does rebirth happen? cuticitta-->-?--> patisandhicitta abhidhammika Dear Herman, Alex, Phil, Howard, Nina, Mike, Scott Herman wrote: "Given that the Buddha did not found Theravada, I can only give as much weight to your argument as I can your conclusion." Are you sure about your above statement? If so, I can assume that you know what Theravada is, and that you know the founder of Theravada. If you accept my assumption, please tell me what Theravada is, and who founded Theravada. Thanks in advance. :-) Cheers! Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org #87634 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jun 29, 2008 3:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditionality: Is it citta, cetasika, or rupa? upasaka_howard Hi, Tep - In a message dated 6/29/2008 10:13:06 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, tepsastri@... writes: Dear Howard, - Thank you for responding. >Howard: > I use 'phenomenon' for any unimagined element of experience. > In my usage, 'phenomenon' and 'dhamma' are synonyms. > T: Please let me pursue it a little further. We know that delusion(moha) is a dhamma; but is it an unimagined element of experience? An experience of a delusive person is most of the time imagined, isn't it? ------------------------------------------- Howard: Delusion is a harmful but unimagined reality. What it projects is not - it is mere fantasy. ------------------------------------------- Is 'nibbana' an element of experience of worldings? If so, how do you experience nibbana right now? ------------------------------------------ Howard: Did I say that worldlings experience nibbana? But with awakening, nibbana is (non-dually) experienced. ----------------------------------------- Tep ========================= With metta, Howard #87635 From: "Alex" Date: Sun Jun 29, 2008 7:43 am Subject: [dsg] Re:How does rebirth happen? cuticitta-->-?--> patisandhicitta truth_aerator Hi Herman, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > > Hi Alex, > > 2008/6/28 Alex : > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" > > wrote: > >> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >> I do not believe that there can be such a thing as undifferentiated > >> awareness. It would be awareness that is unaware [of anything], a > >> conscious unconsciousness. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > I didn't say this here. Of course unconscious consciousness and such > > are contradictory and impossible word wrigglings. > > Sorry. I didn't mean to put words in your mouth :-) > > > What I've meant by 1st person perspective is a subjective feeling > > of "I am". > > > But I wonder if a general "I am" is not the same as consciousness > without object? It is only when there is "I am this" that there is a > subjective perspective [on an object]. I do not think there is such a > thing as an objectless perspective. > > > > > > The sort of rebirth I am proposing with 1st person perspective can be > > demonstrated thus: > > > > Reflect on what happened in dreams. You still had feeling "I am" > > although it was not "I am Herman". Even though at THAT moment all > > Herman's personality contents weren't present, the (delusive) > > feeling "I AM" was. > > Could I just make the point that if you propose that only "I am" > occurs from life to life, without any other context or content, then > why call that rebirth? It is just birth, just like the fact that all > babies have noses doesn't mean that noses are being reborn. > There may be such a thing called (quantum) non-locality. Last moment of consciousness (Citta, nama, cetasika, call it as you will) sends and conditions the first moment of the consciousness in a new organism which is logical continuation. What is sent could be "I am", a separate 1st person perspective/separation. Best wishes, Alex #87636 From: "Alex" Date: Sun Jun 29, 2008 8:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Is reification in all cases bad? truth_aerator Hi Howard and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Alex - > -------------------------------------------- > Howard: >Attributing self to anything is "bad," and attributing >existence >to a non-existent is "bad". These are basic errors. > ------------------------------------------- What precisely do you mean by existence? Anyhow all things that perform functions independent of one's wishing is an objective reality, sankhara, sabhava. > ------------------------------------------------ > Howard: >Pain is unpleasant bodily feeling, birth and death (of a being) are >the initial and final instances of consciousness in a given realm >of experience, >>> I hope that you don't mean that birth/death are caused by consciousness (ie wished for and gotten). --------------------------------------------------------------- "And what is the stress of not getting what is wanted? In beings subject to birth, the wish arises, 'O, may we not be subject to birth, and may birth not come to us.' But this is not to be achieved by wanting. This is the stress of not getting what is wanted. In beings subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair, the wish arises, 'O, may we not be subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair, and may aging... illness... death... sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair not come to us.' But this is not to be achieved by wanting. This is the stress of not getting what is wanted. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.141.than.html >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >and kamma is volition. These are all actual phenomena. Each is >also nothing at all *in and of itself*. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I believe that everything (or almost everything) has a characteristic/function independent of any one's wish. Ie: realism rather than idealism. Best wishes, Alex #87637 From: "Raymond Hendrickson" Date: Sun Jun 29, 2008 9:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Self" as a 1st person perspective - How to refute? bitakarma Hi Alex, Alex says: >>>>>>What about Panna that directly knows that 5 aggregates are mara, anicca, dukkha, anatta and aren't my Self. But the "vinnana" becomes unestablished on what isn't Atman. It goes to its freedom. What about that? Best wishes, Alex>>>>> So then we have Panna, a conditioned arising, Panna arises when the conditions are right for it to aries, that directly knows....... and from this some super "vinnana" that is not an aggregates, we all know the Buddha says the aggregate "vinnana" is not-Self, breaks away from being established on what isn't Atman and goes to its Freedom. So we still have a unconditioned vinnana, self, 1st person perspective, that has been conditioned by ignorance, held by ignorance. Whatever this "vinnana" is, it is certainly not unconditioned, which means it cannot be eternal. If the "vinnana" was unconditioned then it could not be bound by the aggregates, for by definition an unconditioned dhamma cannot be effected by any dhamma. Metta, Ra #87638 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jun 29, 2008 5:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Is reification in all cases bad? upasaka_howard Hi, Alex - In a message dated 6/29/2008 11:40:28 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, truth_aerator@... writes: Hi Howard and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Alex - > -------------------------------------------- > Howard: >Attributing self to anything is "bad," and attributing >existence >to a non-existent is "bad". These are basic errors. > ------------------------------------------- What precisely do you mean by existence? ----------------------------------------------- Howard: By 'existent', I mean "unimagined". As for the alleged thing called "existence", I'll leave that to be decided by reificationists! ;-) But I really think we need to check with U. S. ex-president, Bill Clinton, who, when questioned about his illicit White House liaisons with a female intern, wondered aloud what the meaning of 'is' is! LOLOL! ----------------------------------------------- Anyhow all things that perform functions independent of one's wishing is an objective reality, sankhara, sabhava. > ------------------------------------------------ > Howard: >Pain is unpleasant bodily feeling, birth and death (of a being) are >the initial and final instances of consciousness in a given realm >of experience, >>> I hope that you don't mean that birth/death are caused by consciousness (ie wished for and gotten). ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I meant just what I said: The first arising of consciousness in a given realm of experience is birth, and the last is death. ------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------------------------- "And what is the stress of not getting what is wanted? In beings subject to birth, the wish arises, 'O, may we not be subject to birth, and may birth not come to us.' But this is not to be achieved by wanting. This is the stress of not getting what is wanted. In beings subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair, the wish arises, 'O, may we not be subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair, and may aging... illness... death... sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair not come to us.' But this is not to be achieved by wanting. This is the stress of not getting what is wanted. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.141.than.html >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >and kamma is volition. These are all actual phenomena. Each is >also nothing at all *in and of itself*. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I believe that everything (or almost everything) has a characteristic/function independent of any one's wish. Ie: realism rather than idealism. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Phenomenalism is neither realism nor idealism, and all actual phenomena are what they are, regardless of what I or anyone else might wish them to be. Cold will not be warmth no matter how much I wish it were. ------------------------------------------------ Best wishes, Alex =========================== With metta, Howard #87639 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jun 29, 2008 5:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Is reification in all cases bad? upasaka_howard Hi again, Alex - In a message dated 6/29/2008 12:03:02 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@... writes: Howard: I meant just what I said: . ========================== I should have said "The first arising of consciousness in a given realm of experience is birth, and the cessation of the last consciousness is death." With metta, Howard #87640 From: "Tep" Date: Sun Jun 29, 2008 9:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditionality: Is it citta, cetasika, or rupa? dhammanusarin Dear Howard, - The discussion is getting more interesting. Please allow me to dig into your thesis by asking more questions. Can you give a few examples of imagined element of experience? By the way, how do you define experience in Buddhism? How is imagination different from delusion? Is the term "non-dually experienced" found in the suttas? Abhidhamma? Regards, Tep === #87641 From: "Alex" Date: Sun Jun 29, 2008 9:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Is reification in all cases bad? truth_aerator Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > Howard: Phenomenalism is neither realism nor idealism, >>> Realism asserts that there are mind (wish) independent particles. Idealism means that there aren't mind independent particles. Both of them (in their strong versions) are mutually exclusive: X & not X. If you claim 3rd alternative that is neither, that would not be even "solipsism of the present moment". >>> >and all actual phenomena are what they are, regardless of what I or >anyone else might wish them to be. Cold will not be warmth no matter >how much I wish it were. > ------------------------------------------------ That is a good, Realistic statement. Not idealistic, not solipsistic of the present moment, and neither it is Skepticism (especially its extreme Global variety). Best wishes, Alex #87642 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jun 29, 2008 6:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditionality: Is it citta, cetasika, or rupa? upasaka_howard Hi, Tep - In a message dated 6/29/2008 12:09:53 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, tepsastri@... writes: Dear Howard, - The discussion is getting more interesting. Please allow me to dig into your thesis by asking more questions. Can you give a few examples of imagined element of experience? ------------------------------------------ Howard: Can't YOU? There is a sensing of personal self, but there IS NO personal self. There is the seeming of what we call "the sky," a blue dome above our heads, and there is the seeming of a multicolored something in that sky that we call a rainbow. These, as perceived, do not exist. --------------------------------------------- By the way, how do you define experience in Buddhism? --------------------------------------------- Howard: The activity of experiencing is vi~n~nana. The object or content of the experiencing is the experience. But, Tep, if you have a position or opinion on these matters, why not just put them forward? I will then let you know whether I see the matter in the same way or differently. I'm not overly fond of series of questions, though I hasten to add that I know you mean no harm at all by your questioning. -------------------------------------------- How is imagination different from delusion? -------------------------------------------- Howard: The act of imagining is simply a mental activity, a type of thinking. It is quite real. Believing that imagining is no different from observing what is actual is delusive thinking - a species of delusion. -------------------------------------------- Is the term "non-dually experienced" found in the suttas? Abhidhamma? -------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't think so. (Neither is 'cell phone'.) On second thought, perhaps it does appear in the suttas, as "vi~n~nanam anidassana." Do you think that nibbana is known in the same way we know sights, sounds, and so on, with an apparent subject encountering nibbana as object? Or do you think that nibbana is "realized" as opposed to being known in the subject/object mode. I opt for "realized." ------------------------------------------- Regards, Tep ======================= With metta, Howard #87643 From: Dieter Möller Date: Sun Jun 29, 2008 10:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: response to hate mail etc - ... Credibility moellerdieter Hi James, and others interested, you wrote: 'James: I normally do quote material to be considered, but his subject is too vast for me to quote little snippets and to do it justice. You have to read a lot to get the big picture. Believe me, I used to think that Theravada was the bee's knees, but now I know better. I only know better because I have read a lot.' D: believe me, James, I have some knowledge about the situation of Buddhism in Thailand , less from other Theravada countries . There are faults , of course. So looking into the first pages of the writing of S.Dhammika , I was not specially surprised .. we may talk about some points later James (D: The repetition was necessary , because you seemed not to agree that Theravada, the teaching of the Elders, is that what has been laid down in the Pali Canon, the Tipitaka (all commentaries secondary). I didn't know that that was the issue. I thought the issue was: Does Theravada represent the original teaching of the Buddha? I say no and you say yes. As far as elders composing the Tipitaka, I thought we were in agreement that they did. D: let me repeat : 'well, as I see it, Theravadins can rightfully claim , that was has been laid down in the Tipitaka, is the material closest to the teaching of the Buddha. Those involved , from the first to the third Council , are the Theras we refer to ' ( or was it the fourth Council in which the Buddha Dhamma was written down for the first time?) I emphasized ' closest' , not 'it is the original teaching ' and for 'closest' there is certainly agreement among respected scholars, to be valid at least for the vinaya and sutta pitaka . Please justify saying no.. just a few words more about your previous mail: James : You are making the mistake that most Theravadins make: you are equating the Buddha¡¦s teaching with Theravada. They are two different things. The Buddha was not a Theravadin. The Buddha gave teachings and his followers memorized them. These followers were called the ¡§Sons of Sakayan¡¨ (or something to that effect). After the parinibbana of the Buddha, these followers split up into different schools, but they each had the Buddha¡¦s teachings as their core. Theravada added other texts; Mahayana added other texts; and Tibetan added other texts. Just because I take refuge in the Triple Gem that doesn¡¦t mean I own any allegiance to Theravada. I could have learned the Buddha¡¦s teaching with or without Theravada. Of course, I lean more toward Theravada in my beliefs, but I don¡¦t completely accept everything within Theravada- even thought I completely accept what the Buddha taught. D: I think it is necessary to find a consensus what means Theravada nowadays . Among the 3 recognised Buddhist traditions worldwide , Theravada is the umbrella of those followers who stick to the Pali Canon with many schools within. The Pali Canon or Tipitaka is the common fundament of dogma and discipline providing enough space for different preferences by its multitude of teachings depending on the audience. That the Canon may include minor material added lateron or even missing some of the original words of the Buddha , respectively commentaries are favored, is not a major issue as far as the essense of the Buddha Dhamma is ensured. The Theravada tradition is weak , more and more watered down, because many of those knowledgeable in the teaching do not stand up for it ...and/or , what I read in your message, find no ways to address problems positively . But isn't that the way to support a direction for the better? with Metta Dieter #87644 From: "Alex" Date: Sun Jun 29, 2008 10:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditionality: Is it citta, cetasika, or rupa? truth_aerator Hi Howard and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > ------------------------------------------ > Howard: >Can't YOU? There is a sensing of personal self, >>>> There is sensing of 5 khandas, 6 sense spheres, & delusive label "self". >>>>>>>>> >There is the seeming of what we call "the sky," a blue dome above >our heads, and there is the seeming of a multicolored something in >that sky that we call a rainbow. These, as perceived, do not exist. > --------------------------------------------- The wavelengths seen by the eye most certainly exist. The atmosphere (or what makes it up) exists. Rainbow is a light reflected/refracted from watery droplets (or something like that), a light that gets picked up in the eye. While I agree that "sky, rainbow, etc" is a mental label, the parts that make it up do really exist "out there". Best wishes, Alex #87645 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jun 29, 2008 6:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditionality: Is it citta, cetasika, or rupa? upasaka_howard Hi, Alex - In a message dated 6/29/2008 1:33:45 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, truth_aerator@... writes: Hi Howard and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > ------------------------------------------ > Howard: >Can't YOU? There is a sensing of personal self, >>>> There is sensing of 5 khandas, 6 sense spheres, & delusive label "self". ---------------------------------------------- Howard: No, I don't think so. There is an unidentified sense of self lurking as basis. ---------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>>> >There is the seeming of what we call "the sky," a blue dome above >our heads, and there is the seeming of a multicolored something in >that sky that we call a rainbow. These, as perceived, do not exist. > --------------------------------------------- The wavelengths seen by the eye most certainly exist. The atmosphere (or what makes it up) exists. Rainbow is a light reflected/refracted from watery droplets (or something like that), a light that gets picked up in the eye. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Didn't you read that I said "as perceived"? As for your science stories replacing the namarupa story, to each according to his/her liking. --------------------------------------------------- While I agree that "sky, rainbow, etc" is a mental label, the parts that make it up do really exist "out there". -------------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't accept your "out there," but anyway that was not my point. My point was simply to indicate that we do experience merely imagined phenomena, like personal self. That's what delusion is all about - misperception and misidentification. -------------------------------------------------- Best wishes, Alex ========================== With metta, Howard #87646 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jun 29, 2008 11:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Levels of upacara samadhi nilovg Dear Derek, good to see you again. In samatha calm is developed with a meditation subject, as you know. When the jhanafactors are being develped, and calm grows, upacaara samaadhi can be reached, which is not yet jhaana but it is approaching jhaana. As to levels, I do not know about six levels. Some meditation subjects do not lead to jhaana, but they can lead to upacaara samaadhi, such as the Recollection of the Buddha, the Dhamma, the Sangha, because the subject is very deep. And also, only the ariyan can be sucessful, since he really understands more what Buddha, the Enlightened One, means. Also some other subjects can lead only to upaaara samaadhi. Is this what you are looking for? Nina. Op 28-jun-2008, om 19:51 heeft derekacameron het volgende geschreven: > Somewhere, I came across a description of different levels of upacara > samadhi, but I can't find the source for it. #87647 From: "Tep" Date: Sun Jun 29, 2008 11:16 am Subject: Re: Conditionality: Is it citta, cetasika, or rupa? dhammanusarin Dear Howard, - Forgive my series of questions. I think I was uncomfortable with the unfamiliar terminology I always encounter in your posts; perhaps it is not unlike how you feel about the Pali words Han and I are so fond of using to give clarity to some poor English translation of the suttas. That is my position that you asked me to put forward. :-) Tep === #87648 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jun 29, 2008 7:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Conditionality: Is it citta, cetasika, or rupa? upasaka_howard Hi, Tep - In a message dated 6/29/2008 2:16:41 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, tepsastri@... writes: Dear Howard, - Forgive my series of questions. I think I was uncomfortable with the unfamiliar terminology I always encounter in your posts; perhaps it is not unlike how you feel about the Pali words Han and I are so fond of using to give clarity to some poor English translation of the suttas. ---------------------------------------------- It makes good sense to want to know how I'm using words. :-) ----------------------------------------------- That is my position that you asked me to put forward. :-) ----------------------------------------------- ;-)) ---------------------------------------------- Tep ======================= With metta, Howard #87649 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jun 29, 2008 11:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddhist texts 101 - prerequisite: an historical perspective nilovg Hi Herman, Thank you for the sutta. Is Sutta Nipata on line, how did you get it? Op 28-jun-2008, om 4:03 heeft Herman Hofman het volgende geschreven: > The Dhamma as found in Sn5.4 > > [The Venerable Mettagu:] > ....The Lord: "I will set forth the Dhamma, Mettagu, a teaching to be > directly perceived, not something based on hearsay, by experiencing > which and living mindfully one may pass beyond the entanglements of > the world." ------- N: This is very helpful for daily life. You have an aim with this thread: H: ------- N: As you know I look rather at it this way: can this or that explanation help me to understand the teachings better. I even look at newer commentaries, such as the Guide (Netti Pakarana), but these have to be in complete conformity with the Tipitaka. -------- Now this is another subject: You wrote to me in another post: It is so understandable that this is not clear, I had such a hard time explaining this to Lodewijk. Remember the posts on: there is no Lodewijk, there is no Nina. While living my social life I try to remember (not always sucessfully) that whatever is experienced is just dhamma, that is to say, a conditioned dhamma that does not belong to 'me'. Sorrow, losses, being upset, but these have conditions, they are there for a moment and then gone. Why being upset. And even being upset is a dhamma, a conditioned dhamma. In this way we are less inclined to critizise or blame others when we hear unpleasant words. This afternoon I played music with Lodewijk and two of my nephews, and hearing is just a dhamma. Not too difficult to rememember now and then. Also attachment to the melody, it is dhamma. And so life continues. BTW, talking about music, do you still play the organ? Do you still have a band with your children, but meanwhile they must be grown up, are they? Nina. #87650 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jun 29, 2008 11:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Citta & Cetasika = Why are they different? nilovg Hi Alex, Op 29-jun-2008, om 0:33 heeft Alex het volgende geschreven: > Since citta cannot be without cetasikas, why two categories rather > than one (lets call it nama for example)? > > For example: > > lobhamulacittani (citta rooted in greed) > > 1) accompanied by joy, associated with wrong view, unprompted. > > Joy is a cetasika, so is wrong view, so is unprompted (volition, > attention, or some other cetasika) > > How can "Citta" (vinnana in suttas) be a different "ultimate reality"? ------- N: Citta is the principal, the chief in knowing the object, and the cetasikas that accompany citta assist the citta, but each in their own way. Only one citta at a time arises, but several cetasikas accompany it. As Htoo said: citta is like the minister and cetasikas his attendants. ------- > > Furthermore, in the suttas we have many passages saying in different > ways that consciousness (citta in Abh) is inseparatible (or based, or > dependent on) from what is called "cetasika & rupa". > > Why the duplication? ------- N: In the planes where there are five khandhas, nama and rupa, citta and cetasikas and also rupas are related to each other in different ways. Seeing for instance needs seven cetasikas which assist it and also the rupa which is the eyebase and the rupa that is visible object. Nina. #87651 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jun 29, 2008 11:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sangiitisutta corner. Commentary Part I. nilovg Dear Connie, I like your quotes of the Udana Co. Thank you. Nina. Op 29-jun-2008, om 3:45 heeft connie het volgende geschreven: > Another footnote talks about "karmic fluff" and one the "trickling > down of a karmic remnant". The text quotes Ap-a and I copy only: > 124. ..."for karma does not perish" and 126: < When the fighting > contest was in progress, the Mallas' son I foiled; through the > ripening of that deed I have (throughout) had backache >. #87652 From: "Tep" Date: Sun Jun 29, 2008 11:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditionality: Is it citta, cetasika, or rupa? dhammanusarin Dear Alex (and Howard), - That rainbow analogy, which is one or Howard's favorites, is a trite. > >Howard: > >There is the seeming of what we call "the sky," a blue dome above > >our heads, and there is the seeming of a multicolored > >something in that sky that we call a rainbow. These, > >as perceived, do not exist. > > --------------------------------------------- > Alex: > The wavelengths seen by the eye most certainly exist. The atmosphere (or what makes it up) exists. Rainbow is a light reflected/refracted from watery droplets (or something like that), a light that gets picked up in the eye. > > While I agree that "sky, rainbow, etc" is a mental label, the parts > that make it up do really exist "out there". > ...................... T: His existence view is philosophical-based, yours is physical, based on the science that explains phenomena of the real world we live in. I do not think the Buddha's Dhamma is philosophical. On the other hand, I doubt if the existence and non-existence views are compatible with the Buddha's middle-way, non-extreme Teaching. Seeing and knowing the All as 'anatta' is mainly for non-clinging. Tep === #87653 From: "Alex" Date: Sun Jun 29, 2008 12:20 pm Subject: "I do not specify thinking even for a short second" truth_aerator Dear Tep, Howard and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep" wrote: > > Dear Alex (and Howard), - > > On the other hand, I doubt if the existence and non-existence views > are compatible with the Buddha's middle-way, non-extreme Teaching. > Seeing and knowing the All as 'anatta' is mainly for non-clinging. > > > Tep > === > Exactly. However, I have bad tendencies (thinking) that must cease. =================================================================== 320. Bhikkhus, just as a little bit of excreta smells and should be got rid of, I do not specify thinking even for the fraction of a second. 321. Bhikkhus, just as a little bit of urine, ... re ... saliva, ... re ... pus, ... re ... blood smells and should be got rid of, I do not specify thinking{1) even for the fraction of a second. Notes. ( 1) I do not specify thinking even for a short second. `appamattakampi bhavam na vannemi' Always thoughts seek connections in the past, for the future or in the present. The bhikkhu who aims extinction should not advocte thinking, as thoughts prolong the journey in existence. http://www.mettanet.org/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara- Nikaya/Anguttara1/1-ekanipata/016-Ekadhammapali-e.html =============================================================== Best wishes, Alex #87654 From: "derekacameron" Date: Sun Jun 29, 2008 12:31 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Levels of upacara samadhi derekacameron --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Is this what you are looking for? > Nina. Hi again, Nina, thanks for your reply. I have read in the Visuddhimagga about certain of the 40 subjects not leading to jhaana. However, that is not the differentiation of 6 levels of progressively calmer upacaara samaadhi that I was looking for. I'm wondering if it may be in the Vimuttimagga, but I don't have that one. Derek. #87655 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Sun Jun 29, 2008 2:38 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Is reification in all cases bad? egberdina Hi Howard, 2008/6/30 : > > Hi again, Alex - > > In a message dated 6/29/2008 12:03:02 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > upasaka@... writes: > > Howard: > I meant just what I said: . > ========================== > I should have said "The first arising of consciousness in a given realm > of experience is birth, and the cessation of the last consciousness is > death." > If an arising of consciousness could know that it was the first, then birth could be known. Same with death. But consciousness cannot know a first or a last. Birth and death are not first person perspectives, they are third person perspectives. Cheers Herman #87656 From: "Alex" Date: Sun Jun 29, 2008 3:12 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Is reification in all cases bad? truth_aerator Hi Herman, Howard and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > > Hi Howard, > > If an arising of consciousness could know that it was the first, then > birth could be known. Same with death. But consciousness cannot know a > first or a last. Birth and death are not first person perspectives, > they are third person perspectives. > > Cheers > > > Herman > I'd like to add something. A moment of consciousness cannot cognize what was prior or what happens after it. A moment of consciousness just cognizes "NOW" , even if this cognition involves thinking about past or future (thinking which happens NOW). A moment of consciousness cannot know its own arising or ceasing. Best wishes, Alex #87657 From: "Tep" Date: Sun Jun 29, 2008 4:03 pm Subject: Re: "I do not specify thinking ... How to stop thinking ... dhammanusarin Dear Alex, - Let me ask you a question. > > Alex: > > Exactly. However, I have bad tendencies (thinking) that must cease. > > > =================================================================== > 320. Bhikkhus, just as a little bit of excreta smells and should be > got rid of, I do not specify thinking even for the fraction of a > second. > ................... Question: Do you know how to stop both akusala and kusala thinkings for, say, 2 minutes, without depending on the 2nd jhana? Thanks, Tep === #87658 From: "Alex" Date: Sun Jun 29, 2008 4:22 pm Subject: Re: "I do not specify thinking ... How to stop thinking ... truth_aerator Dear Tep and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep" wrote: > Dear Alex, - > > Let me ask you a question. > > > Question: Do you know how to stop both akusala and kusala thinkings > for, say, 2 minutes, without depending on the 2nd jhana? > Thanks, > > > Tep > === It is a good question. Few *possible* answers: a) It is natural at Arahatship. But this doesn't concern us for now. b) Very energetic mindfulness and concentration throughout the day. This works better in retreats. Of course induvidial thoughts (sanna) arise, the trick is to note them (or whatever you do) and don't let them proliferate. c) I do remember moments of silence when doing maranasati/asubha staring at the photos. Another thing is that, what does "thinking" means here? Theorizing & speculating? If so, it probably ceased (at least to some extent) when one is Sotapanna - although as MN#1 says a trainee (up to anagami stage) may have lapses. ========================== "A monk who is a trainee — ...let him not conceive things about X, let him not conceive things in X, let him not conceive things coming out of X, let him not conceive X as 'mine,' let him not delight in X. Why is that? So that he may comprehend it, I tell you. " http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.001.than.html =============== Best wishes, Alex #87659 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jun 29, 2008 1:03 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddhist texts 101 - prerequisite: an historical perspective upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Herman) - In a message dated 6/29/2008 2:27:54 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Herman, Thank you for the sutta. Is Sutta Nipata on line, how did you get it? ============================== Just butting in: It's on ATI, Nina, at _http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/snp/index.html_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/snp/index.html) With metta, Howard #87660 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jun 29, 2008 1:10 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Is reification in all cases bad? upasaka_howard Hi, Herman - In a message dated 6/29/2008 5:38:25 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, hhofmeister@... writes: Hi Howard, 2008/6/30 : > > Hi again, Alex - > > In a message dated 6/29/2008 12:03:02 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > upasaka@... writes: > > Howard: > I meant just what I said: . > ========================== > I should have said "The first arising of consciousness in a given realm > of experience is birth, and the cessation of the last consciousness is > death." > If an arising of consciousness could know that it was the first, then birth could be known. Same with death. But consciousness cannot know a first or a last. Birth and death are not first person perspectives, they are third person perspectives. Cheers Herman ============================ No consciousness knows itself. So, so much for first-person perspective as a reality. ;-) With metta, Howard #87661 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jun 29, 2008 1:12 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Is reification in all cases bad? upasaka_howard Hi, Alex (and Herman) - In a message dated 6/29/2008 6:12:33 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, truth_aerator@... writes: Hi Herman, Howard and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > > Hi Howard, > > If an arising of consciousness could know that it was the first, then > birth could be known. Same with death. But consciousness cannot know a > first or a last. Birth and death are not first person perspectives, > they are third person perspectives. > > Cheers > > > Herman > I'd like to add something. A moment of consciousness cannot cognize what was prior or what happens after it. A moment of consciousness just cognizes "NOW" , even if this cognition involves thinking about past or future (thinking which happens NOW). A moment of consciousness cannot know its own arising or ceasing. ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Exactly. ----------------------------------------------- Best wishes, Alex ======================= With metta, Howard #87662 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Sun Jun 29, 2008 5:25 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:How does rebirth happen? cuticitta-->-?--> patisandhicitta egberdina Hi Suan, 2008/6/30 abhidhammika : > > Dear Herman, Alex, Phil, Howard, Nina, Mike, Scott > > Herman wrote: > > "Given that the Buddha did not found Theravada, I can only give as > much weight to your argument as I can your conclusion." > > Are you sure about your above statement? If so, I can assume that > you know what Theravada is, and that you know the founder of > Theravada. > > If you accept my assumption, please tell me what Theravada is, and > who founded Theravada. The Buddha left no successor. Theravada is the way of the elders. The elders were the ones who, after the paranibbana of the Buddha, did not know what were major and what were minor training rules. Nevertheless, they did not hesitate to make believe that they knew exactly what the only correct interpretation of the teachings of the Buddha was. Funny, isn't it? :-) Cheers Herman #87663 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Jun 29, 2008 6:09 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: response to hate mail etc - ... Credibility buddhatrue Hi Dieter, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Dieter Möller wrote: > > D: let me repeat : 'well, as I see it, Theravadins can rightfully claim , that was has been laid down in the Tipitaka, is the material closest to the teaching of the Buddha. James: I can't agree with that. Now, if you said Theravadins can rightfully claim that the material laid down in the suttas is closest to the teaching of the Buddha, I could agree with that. Historical and logical evidence does point to that. But, if you lump the whole Tipitaka together and say "This most closely represents what the Buddha taught" I would have to strongly disagree with you. Those involved , from the first to the third Council , are the Theras we refer to ' ( or was it the fourth Council in which the Buddha Dhamma was written down for the first time?) > I emphasized ' closest' , not 'it is the original teaching ' and for 'closest' there is certainly agreement among respected scholars, to be valid at least for the vinaya and sutta pitaka . > Please justify saying no.. James: What I am saying is that the Tipitaka is not sacrosanct. Here are some words on this subject from John Bullitt (you will probably like them because they are more "gentle" than my position): One might reasonably wonder: how can a collection of texts written a thousand years after the Buddha's death possibly represent his teachings reliably? How can we be sure they aren't simply derivative works, colored by a host of irrelevant cultural accretions? First of all, although many of these texts were indeed first written in Pali a thousand years after the Buddha, most Sinhala versions upon which they were based were written much earlier, having themselves been passed down via an ancient and reliable oral tradition. But (one might object) mustn't those early texts themselves be suspect, since they are based only on hearsay? Perhaps, but by this argument we should reject the entire oral tradition ¡X and hence the entire Tipitaka itself, which similarly emerged from an oral tradition long after the Buddha's death. Surely that is taking things too far. But what of the credentials of the commentators themselves: can their words be trusted? In addition to living a monastic life immersed in Dhamma, the compilers of the commentaries possessed unimpeachable literary credentials: intimate acquaintance with the Tipitaka, mastery of the Pali and Sinhala languages, and expert skill in the art of careful scholarship. We have no reason to doubt either their abilities or the sincerity of their intentions. And what of their first-hand understanding of Dhamma: if the commentators were scholars first and foremost, would they have had sufficient meditative experience to write with authority on the subject of meditation? This is more problematic. Perhaps commentators like Buddhaghosa had enough time (and accumulated merit) both for mastering meditation and for their impressive scholarly pursuits; we will never know. But it is noteworthy that the most significant discrepancies between the Canon and its commentaries concern meditation ¡X in particular, the relationship between concentration meditation and insight.4 The question of the authority of the post-canonical texts thus remains a point of controversy within Theravada Buddhism. It is important to remember that the ultimate function of the post- canonical texts is ¡X like that of the Tipitaka itself ¡X to assist the student in the quest for nibbana, the highest goal of Buddhist practice. Concerns about authorship and authority recede when the texts are subjected to the same healthy skeptical attitude and empirical approach that should be familiar to every student of the suttas. If a commentary sheds light on a murky corner of a sutta or helps us understand a subtle point of Vinaya or of Abhidhamma, or if the chronicles remind us that we hold the future history of Dhamma in our hands, then to that extent they help us clear the path ahead. And if they can do even that much, then ¡X no matter who wrote them and from whence they came ¡X these texts will have demonstrated an authority beyond reproach.5 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bullitt/fieldguide.html > > D: I think it is necessary to find a consensus what means Theravada nowadays . > Among the 3 recognised Buddhist traditions worldwide , Theravada is the umbrella of those followers who stick to the Pali Canon with many schools within. > The Pali Canon or Tipitaka is the common fundament of dogma and discipline providing enough space for different preferences by its multitude of teachings depending on the audience. James: I think that this is very idealistic. I don't see this type of variety within Theravada or acceptance of this type of variety. The last reform within Theravada, that I know of, was the Thai Forest Tradition...an attempt to return to an original, sutta- oriented approach to the Dhamma. Unfortunately, it was short-lived and not very influential to the Theravada World. > > That the Canon may include minor material added lateron or even missing some of the original words of the Buddha , respectively commentaries are favored, is not a major issue as far as the essense of the Buddha Dhamma is ensured. > > > The Theravada tradition is weak , more and more watered down, James: Perhaps you would like to explain what you mean by "more watered down". If anything, I view Theravada as a monolithic rock which is unwilling to move or yield. because many of those knowledgeable in the teaching do not stand up for it ... James: Who and what do you mean? Who doesn't stand up for it? and/or , what I read in your message, find no ways to address problems positively . > But isn't that the way to support a direction for the better? James: Again, I am unsure of what you mean. Theravada needs to be either reformed or scrapped altogether; I don't think anyone in their right mind would say that it is okay as it is, now. The evidence is too overwhelming. Metta, James ps. BTW, the current corruption of the Sangha is not a minor issue; it is a central issue to Theravada and the future of Buddhism. #87665 From: "Alex" Date: Sun Jun 29, 2008 6:38 pm Subject: Eternality/Non, Infinite/Finite of world truth_aerator Dear Howard, Herman, Tep and all, > > I'd like to add something. A moment of consciousness cannot >cognize what was prior or what happens after it. A moment of >consciousness just cognizes "NOW" , even if this cognition involves >thinking about past or future (thinking which happens NOW). A moment >of consciousness cannot know its own arising or ceasing. > ------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Exactly. > ----------------------------------------------- > On a similiar topic of why the issue: "is world eternal/not, finite/infinite" is unanswerable. If by the world we say "all the exists or percieved" including empty and non-empty space & time then: Limits, or what is behind them, aren't seen in a finite or temporal universe from the "being's" perspective located within the world. Thus even if world is finite, for practical purposes its end (or what lies beyond it) isn't seen from within the world and is unimaginable and emperically unprovable. If the world is infinite then this is unimaginable AND emperically UNPROVABLE either. None of these things are provable emperically with absolute certaintly and give the same result of unknowable and unreachable (and what lies beyond them) and contadictory concept of edges. Same with consciousness, it knows only what is happening NOW. It can't emperically witness temporal edges (itself or objects before its own arising, itself or objects after its own disappearance). So the impossibility is theoretically out of reach AND Emperic/Pragmatic. ==== Best wishes, Alex #87666 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Jun 29, 2008 7:09 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: response to hate mail etc - revised and corrected edition kenhowardau Hi Herman, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > > Hi KenH, > > 2008/6/27 kenhowardau : > > Hi Herman, > > > >> > >> I know that lobha, mana and sakkaya-ditthi are taught as being > >> inappropriate in the Dhamma. > >> > > > > Excellent! (You weren't being difficult at all!) :-) > > > > And why are they taught as being inappropriate? It is because there > > are only dhammas. Since there are only fleeting, soulless conditioned > > dhammas there can be nothing worth desiring or worth identifying > > with. > > > > And for whose benefit would anything be desired anyway - when there > > is no one there? > > > > Well, desire, craving etc ARE some of those soulless dhammas of which > you speak. It is not "I" that craves, it is craving that is "I". > -------------------------- I simply wanted you to confirm that, from your intellectual understanding of the Dhamma, you knew that lobha, mana and sakkaya- ditthi were inappropriate (or illogical, unwise etc). ----------------- <. .> KH: > > that sort of thinking is inevitable. Even though there is no one - no selves - there is still thinking in terms of selves. H: > Yes, but thinking in terms of selves is also only dhammas. ------------------ That's true, but let's keep on track. ------------- > > H: > Having said that, I'm certainly not aversive to being led to > discover that I am wrong in that understanding. KH: > > Good, because that understanding it is not right understanding (as taught by the Buddha), is it? It is just conventional thinking. H: > It ceases to be conventional thinking when there are dhammas that are not based in craving. And I would like to put it to you that only that when consciousness finds no hold anywhere, that there is no craving. Please feel free to report on craving-free existence any time you like :-) ------------- Now you have gone off track. Those ideas are not found in the Dhamma. ---------------------- H: > Cars and driving are only shortcut words that refer to specific combinations of namas and rupas. And until there is knowledge of the relationships between specific namas and rupas, I do not think you are in a position to say anything about control. ----------------------- Again, this is not Theravada Dhamma. Along with many other [misguided] DSG members you refer to a reality that is not found in the texts. The texts contain no references to complex networks of inter-related namas and rupas. IMHO, such things would be just Self by another name. I preferred the sitting duck Herman. :-) Ken H #87667 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Sun Jun 29, 2008 7:09 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: response to hate mail etc - ... Credibility egberdina Hi Sukin, 2008/6/27 Sukinder : > Hi Herman, > > Before I go on I want to say that I believe that I did misrepresent you > in my last letter, judging from what I read in a post to Ken H. But I'll > wait for you to write more on it. > Thanks, Sukin. You have replied to me in great detail, and I appreciate all the effort that you have put in. You may find it helpful to see, as a comparison, the enormous difference between the following complete exposition of the Dhamma, and what you wrote: Sn 5:11 [Jatukannin:] Hearing that there was a hero — desiring no sensuality, having crossed over the flood — I've come with a question: Tell me the state of peace, O One with quick eyes. O Blessed One, tell me as it actually is. For the Blessed One lives having surpassed sensuality, as the radiant sun, in its radiance, the earth. Limited my discernment, O One whose discernment's profound. Teach me to know the Dhamma, the abandoning here of birth & aging. [The Buddha:] Subdue greed for sensual pleasures, & see renunciation as rest. Let there be nothing grasped or rejected by you. Burn up what's before, and have nothing for after. If you don't grasp at what's in between, you will go about, calm. One completely devoid of greed for name & form, brahman, has no effluents by which he would go under Mara's sway. Cheers Herman #87668 From: "Tep" Date: Mon Jun 30, 2008 12:27 am Subject: Re: Eternality/Non, Infinite/Finite of world dhammanusarin Dear Alex (Howard and others), - I'd like to make two comments -- or points, if you will. 1). The terms 'finiteness, empty/non-empty' you are using here seem to be restricted to physical properties. But, in the Patisambhidamagga, Treatise on Views, there are 10 views that assume finiteness. Thus "finiteness" in the Patism is very broad; I do not know yet what it truly means. Patism, ii, 322. In what 50 aspects is there misinterpretation through views assuming [by asserting or denying] finiteness? In how many aspects is there misinterpretation through the view assuming finiteness (1) thus 'The world is eternal'? (2) thus 'The world is not eternal'? (3) thus 'The world has an end [in space]'? (4) thus 'The world has no end [in space]'? (5) thus 'The soul and the body are the same'? (6) thus 'The soul is one, and the body is another'? (7) thus 'A Perfect One is after death'? (8) thus 'A Perfect One is not after death'? (9) thus 'A Perfect One both is and is not after death'? (10) thus 'A Perfect One neither is nor is not after death'? There is misinterpretation through the view assuming finiteness in five aspects in [each of the 10 instances just mentioned]. -------------------- 2. Seeing the worlds or cosmos by a person who has a supernormal power is not the same as "seeing" by the physical eyes of ordinary people. This kind of "seeing" by psychic power and by 'Divine Eye' is not imaginative at all (if you believe that the suttas do not lie). "He exercises influence with his body even as far as the Brahma worlds. This is called the miracle of psychic power." [AN 3.60]. Once the Venerable Anuruddha went to see the Venerable Sariputta. When they had exchanged courteous greetings he sat down and said to the Venerable Sariputta: "Friend Sariputta, with the divine eye that is purified, transcending human ken, I can see the thousandfold world- system. Firm is my energy, unremitting; my mindfulness is alert and unconfused; the body is tranquil and unperturbed; my mind is concentrated and one-pointed. And yet my mind is not freed from cankers, not freed from clinging." [Tika-Nipata No. 128] ............... Tep === #87669 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 30, 2008 1:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Letter from Lukas nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 29-jun-2008, om 13:17 heeft szmicio het volgende geschreven: > Regard to phassa I mean phassa as it is thought in paticcasamuppada, > but i didnt know that it is a cetasika. > > In Paticcasamuppada > .... > 5. Salayatana paccaya phasso: > > 6. Phassa paccaya vedana: > > --------- N: Phassa accompanies each citta, it is one of the universals. In the Dependent Origination, certain aspects are shown to teach us the conditions for being in the cycle of birth and death. The Visuddhimagga gives the details, in Ch XVII. Ch XVII, 221: 221. Briefly, with the clause 'With the sixfold base as condition, contact', there are only six kinds beginning with eye-contact, that is to say, eye-contact, ear-contact, nose-contact, tongue-contact, body-contact, and mind-contact. But in detail the five profitable resultant and the five unprofitable resultant beginning with eye-contact make ten; -------- N: Contact accompanying the vipaakacittas which are the five sense- cognitions, such as seeing, etc., are ten: contact accompanying five kusala vipaakacittas and five akusala vipaakacittas. --------- Text Vis.: the rest, which are associated with the twenty-two kinds of mundane resultant consciousness, make twenty-two. -------- As to the link: contact conditions feeling: Feelings can be classified in different ways: by way of the contacts through the six doors, or by way of by way of association with all eightynine cittas. Feeling is a universal cetasika accompanying each citta. In the following sections only feeling accompanying mundane vipaakacittas are taken into account since these are considered according to the method of the teaching of the Dependent Origination. They pertain to the link of the Dependent Origination which is: contact conditions feeling. ---------- > So when there is nama and rupa there is always a contact of 6 senses. > But i didn't know that is a mental , a cetasika. So phassa cetasika > just 'contact' visible object with seeing and hearing with sound??? ----------- N: Contact accompanies each citta and it assists for example seeing to experience visible object. But we should remember that it is not rupa, it does not 'touch' the object in the physical sense. Nina. > __._,_. #87670 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 30, 2008 2:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] ekaggata cetasika and manasikara cetasika nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 29-jun-2008, om 13:05 heeft szmicio het volgende geschreven: > manasikara and ekaggata arise with each citta, but what function > they has? --------- N: Ekaggata cetasika helps the citta to focus on the object that is experienced, and manasikara cetasika joins the citta and the other cetasikas with the object (See my Cetasikas, Ch 6 and 7). --------- > > L:The Buddha said that yoniso manasikara condition panja(right > understanding), but is yoniso manasikara a cetasika or just pannati. --------- N: There are aIso two kinds of citta which are called manasikara (Atthasalini 133 and Visusshimagga XIV, 152). One kind of citta which is manasikara is the panca-dvaravajana-citta (five-sense-door adverting-consciousness). The first citta of the 'sense-door process', which adverts to the object; it is called 'controller of the sense-door process'. The other kind of citta which manasikara is the mano-dvara-vajana-citta (mind-door adverting-consciousness) which adverts to the object through the mind-door and is succeeded by the javana cittas. It is called 'controller of the javanas'.) In a sense- door process this type of citta is called votthapanacitta and determines the object, and it is followed by javanacittas. When the manodvaaraavajjanacitta is followed by kusala javanacittas there is wise attention to the object. The manodvaaraavajjanacitta itself is kiriyacitta, neither kusala nor akusala, and it is an extremely short moment. We cannot pinpoint it. It is not a concept. ------- > > L: I just considered yoniso manasikara as just this moment when we put > our attention to things which are important.Example, when we put our > attention to seeing or hearing. > But can we really put attention anywhere? Or just yoniso manasikara > arise with the citta? --------- N: See above, only the cetasika manasikara accompanies each citta. When we think of paying attention to something we should know that it is only a cetasika which we cannot pinpoint, it is gone immediately. Some example of wise attention: When we hear harsh words and we keep quiet, do not answer back, there may not always be wise attention. We may keep quiet with aversion, and then the cittas are akusala cittas, no wise attention. Because of hearing the Dhamma, we may see the value of kusala and this conditions kusala cittas with metta or compassion when hearing disagreeable words. It all depends on accumulated conditions whether kusala cittas or akusala cittas arise. Cittas arise and fall away extremely fast, there is no time to deliberate, kusala citta or akusala citta arises already. Nina. #87671 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Jun 30, 2008 4:24 am Subject: Re: Sangiitisutta corner. Commentary Part I. scottduncan2 Dear connie, Thanks for this reply: c: "Interesting things, Introductions. I keep remembering that 2 of our Englishers remarked on the 'thrown aloft-er' name but not with enough curiosity or whatever it takes to dig into the commentarial paa.li myself. More often, I remember Anandajoti's footnote in his Udaana translation about the "viharati" in the beginning of so many suttas being "dwells" - something about the historical present..." Scott: I don't mind introductions. I wonder if 'viharati' implies a sense of 'being' as well as 'being somewhere'? 'Stays' 'Revisits' 'Resides' - 'Is'. c: "...<< With his (own) mind (cetasaa): with consciousness associated with his Buddha-eye; for knowledge is defined under the headings of consciousness, the meaning being therefore with his knowledge as to the biases and latent tendencies (of beings) and with his knowledge as to the higher or lower state (in the development) of the faculties (of beings) >>, I just kept reading and thinking about the neat phrase: "attainment of the potential"... that's some best wishes! Another phrase I love: < non-pasturage, even in a dream>." Scott: And so 'consciousness associated with his Buddha-eye' - one gets the impression that this sort of knowledge is used often, if not all the time, by the Buddha when teaching. The suttas are apparently all directed in different instances to beings of a certain level of development of the faculties. We read them all, whether or not they apply to us according to faculties, and so no wonder some or all seem difficult to comprehend. c: "Another Masefield (Udaana Cy p.681 n.387) sangiiti reminder: < Cp Diii243; DA 1034 explains kaaya (body) here as samuuha, collection, and states that eye-consciousness is consciousness, based on the eye's sensitivity (cakkhupasaada - cp Ud-a 73 above), of the ripening of that which is skilled and unskilled. > Another footnote talks about "karmic fluff" and one the "trickling down of a karmic remnant". Scott: So again, 'eye's sensitivity' - cakkhupasaada of a finer, more refined sort in order to 'see' the ripening in the body? Sounds like accumulations are known or there is knowledge of past kamma. c: "The text quotes Ap-a and I copy only: 124. ...'for karma does not perish' and 126: < When the fighting contest was in progress, the Mallas' son I foiled; through the ripening of that deed I have (throughout) had backache >." Scott: The Buddha wrestled with a guy and threw out his back? Sincerely, Scott. #87672 From: "Alex" Date: Mon Jun 30, 2008 6:12 am Subject: Re: Eternality/Non of world, Infinite/Finite of world truth_aerator Dear Tep and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep" wrote: > Dear Alex (Howard and others), - > > I'd like to make two comments -- or points, if you will. > > 1). The terms 'finiteness, empty/non-empty' you are using here seem > to be restricted to physical properties. > -------------------- That is what I wanted to examine in the particular reply, the physical world. Of course there are additional topics (regarding tathagata) If citta irreversibly ceases, then for the Arahant there is no perception of presence, absence, both, neither. No perception of time, nor of space. No perception of something missing, etc. Unimaginable! > 2. Seeing the worlds or cosmos by a person who has a supernormal > power is not the same as "seeing" by the physical eyes of ordinary > people. This kind of "seeing" by psychic power and by 'Divine Eye' >is not imaginative at all (if you believe that the suttas do not >lie). > > "He exercises influence with his body even as far as the Brahma > worlds. This is called the miracle of psychic power." [AN 3.60]. None of this goes beyond the limits of the world. Remember the sutta about Deva Rohitassa trying to reach the end of the world and being unable to? As I understand, none of the tri-loka beings can emperically witness what lies beyond the limits of the univers (the All) as it is a speculative and emperically impossible thing. > Once the Venerable Anuruddha went to see the Venerable Sariputta. > When they had exchanged courteous greetings he sat down and said to > the Venerable Sariputta: "Friend Sariputta, with the divine eye >that is purified, transcending human ken, I can see the thousandfold >world-system. > World system = Galaxies or Multiverses? In any case, what we (tri- loka beings) can know is "The All" . We cannot go beyond. Ariyas have direct view of Nibbana. But this current post was concerned with "mundane" stuff. Best wishes, Alex #87673 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 30, 2008 8:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sangiitisutta corner. Commentary Part I. nilovg Dear Connie and Scott, I tried to find the numbers in my book, but which annotation, the paras? To check who was fighting. Nina. Op 30-jun-2008, om 13:24 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: > c: "The text quotes Ap-a and I copy only: 124. ...'for karma does not > perish' and 126: < When the fighting contest was in progress, the > Mallas' son I foiled; through the ripening of that deed I have > (throughout) had backache >." > > Scott: The Buddha wrestled with a guy and threw out his back? #87674 From: "connie" Date: Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:08 am Subject: Re: Sangiitisutta corner. Commentary Part I. nichiconn Dear Friends, Scott: The Buddha wrestled with a guy and threw out his back? connie: lol ... more throwing aloft! Masefield, Ud-a p.720 n.831 < Ap-a explains that the Lord once took on a champion warrior of the Mallas who had attacked his fellow villagers, and broke his back by hurling him into the air. As a consequence, he suffered bodily pain and headaches wherever he came into existence, whilst, in his final birth, he experienced intermittent backpain, Ap-a then alluding to those occasions upon which Saariputta (A v 123) or Moggallaana (S iv 184) was asked, for this same reason, to take over from the Buddha when he was teaching. > pp 634-5: << I was the child of a fisherman in a village of fishermen; upon seeing the small fish slain, I gave birth to a state of euphoria. Through the ripening of that deed I have (throughout) had headache, whilst all the Sakyans got killed (ha~n~ni.msu) at the time that Vi.duu.dabha thrashed (hani) them (Ap-a 125). >> c: Abiding. How's that bode? PED gives this little fish a couple worms: and < Synonyms are given at Vbh 194* with iriyati, vattati, paleti, yapeti, yapeti, carati; cp. VbhA 262**. > *Bk of Analysis 358. < 'Dwells' means: Assumes the four postures, exists, protects, keeps going, maintains, turns about, dwells. Therefore this is called 'dwells'. > **Dispeller 1209. << As regards the word viharati <194.30> ("dwells"), herein, without asking the question: 'What is dwelling?' he said iriyati ("bears himself"), teaching by means of a discourse which is concerned with a person (puggalaadhi.t.thaanaa desanaa). The meaning of that is that because of being possessed of some one out of the four postures (iriyaapatha) he bears himself (iriyati). By means of these tetrads of postures, vattati ("he proceeds") with the procedure of the body-cart. Paaleti ("he guards") because of protecting the body by means of long endurance through getting rid of the suffering of one posture by means of another posture; yapeti ("he carries on") because of proceeding in all the postures through not settling down in one posture; yaapeti ("he maintains") because of the maintaining of the body in such and such wise with this or that posture; carati ("he wanders") because of causing to proceed for a long time; viharati <194.31> ("he dwells") because of prolonging (hara.na) life by interrupting (vicchinditvaa) posture by posture. 1210. ("this same body is the world"). >> peace, connie PS: Also note Ud-a p.947): < At that time, monks who were sekhas would, for the most part, approach the venerable Saariputta, request a meditation subject for the sake of a higher path, request a Dhamma-teaching, (and) ask questions; (and) he, in fulfilling their expectations, would inform them > {cut}. #87675 From: Dieter Möller Date: Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: response to hate mail etc - ... Credibility moellerdieter Hi James and all, you wrote : ( D: let me repeat : 'well, as I see it, Theravadins can rightfully claim , that was has been laid down in the Tipitaka, is the material closest to the teaching of the Buddha.) James: I can't agree with that. Now, if you said Theravadins can rightfully claim that the material laid down in the suttas is closest to the teaching of the Buddha, I could agree with that. Historical and logical evidence does point to that. But, if you lump the whole Tipitaka together and say "This most closely represents what the Buddha taught" I would have to strongly disagree with you. D: you forgot the Vinaya Pitaka , didn't you? It is very 'Theravadish'.. Your suspicion about the origin of the Abhidhamma Pitaka is wellknown..nevertheless no clear evidence has been shown that its content is later scholarly work. I for my part have no difficulty to respect the third basket as in case of doubt finally the first and the second are base for judgement ( Maha Parinibbana Sutta) James: ( > D: Those involved , from the first to the third Council , are the Theras we refer to ' ( or was it the fourth Council in which the Buddha Dhamma was written down for the first time?) I emphasized ' closest' , not 'it is the original teaching ' and for 'closest' there is certainly agreement among respected scholars, to be valid at least for the vinaya and sutta pitaka . Please justify saying no..< ) What I am saying is that the Tipitaka is not sacrosanct. Here are some words on this subject from John Bullitt (you will probably like them because they are more "gentle" than my position) D: not sacrosanct like Bible or Koran as Buddhists are requested to check for themselves what has been said/written and not blindly to believe, but ' Phra Tipitok ' is usually treated with much respect (seeing the Teacher..) and as you said, in this way I like J.Bullit's quotation. There is a choice to present controversial issues respectful or disrespectful, isn't it? I like to refer here to the passage : 'But what of the credentials of the commentators themselves: can their words be trusted? In addition to living a monastic life immersed in Dhamma, the compilers of the commentaries possessed unimpeachable literary credentials: intimate acquaintance with the Tipitaka, mastery of the Pali and Sinhala languages, and expert skill in the art of careful scholarship. We have no reason to doubt either their abilities or the sincerity of their intentions. 'And what of their first-hand understanding of Dhamma: if the commentators were scholars first and foremost, would they have had sufficient meditative experience to write with authority on the subject of meditation? This is more problematic. Perhaps commentators like Buddhaghosa had enough time (and accumulated merit) both for mastering meditation and for their impressive scholarly pursuits; we will never know. But it is noteworthy that the most significant discrepancies between the Canon and its commentaries concern meditation ¡X in particular, the relationship between concentration meditation and insight.4 The question of the authority of the post-canonical texts thus remains a point of controversy within Theravada Buddhism.' D: I think it is well said , in particular referering to 'the most significant discrepancies between the Canon and its commentaries concern meditation ' who in this list would refute the 'point of controversy'.. ? :-) As I mentioned already before : commentary is commentary and we are requested finally to rely on ourselves and the dhamma , meaning: check with the vinaya/sutta pitaka. . James : (> D: I think it is necessary to find a consensus what means Theravada nowadays . Among the 3 recognised Buddhist traditions worldwide , Theravada is the umbrella of those followers who stick to the Pali Canon with many schools within. The Pali Canon or Tipitaka is the common fundament of dogma and discipline providing enough space for different preferences by its multitude of teachings depending on the audience.<) I think that this is very idealistic. I don't see this type of variety within Theravada or acceptance of this type of variety. D: Perhaps you will find it as consens of the Worldfellowship of Buddhists James: The last reform within Theravada, that I know of, was the Thai Forest Tradition...an attempt to return to an original, sutta-oriented approach to the Dhamma. Unfortunately, it was short-lived and not very influential to the Theravada World. D: I think the Thai Forest Tradition was always sutta oriented.. and respected as a branch/school of Thervada. You have probably Ven Buddhadasa in mind , whose outspoken approach draw much attention.. I think about Ajahn Cha, Ajahn Mun and others too .. all quite influential and their teachings not at all short lived.. James (D> That the Canon may include minor material added lateron or even missing some of the original words of the Buddha , respectively commentaries are favored, is not a major issue as far as the essense of the Buddha Dhamma is ensured. > The Theravada tradition is weak , more and more watered down< Perhaps you would like to explain what you mean by "more watered down". If anything, I view Theravada as a monolithic rock which is unwilling to move or yield. D: by speaking of an idealistic view for example .. I do not know about what rock you are talking .. the Order of monks of all Theravada countries? James : D>: because many of those knowledgeable in the teaching do not stand up for it ...> Who and what do you mean? Who doesn't stand up for it? D: the simile may not really fit, but your 'standing up ' seems to me like the minister who complaints with the few who are attending the mass, that the church is empty.. James: D: > and/or , what I read in your message, find no ways to address problems positively . But isn't that the way to support a direction for the better?< Again, I am unsure of what you mean. Theravada needs to be either reformed or scrapped altogether; I don't think anyone in their right mind would say that it is okay as it is, now. The evidence is too overwhelming. D: James, the Reformator .. repeating again: we find faults in all religions .. it is a mirror of the society Theravada once was called Hinayana ..some truth in it: very individualistic as everybody has to walk on his/her own feet ..and though : these individuals commonly have the Buddha Dhamma as refuge and by that represent the sangha .. Your evidence conc. your critics about the Tipitaka seems to be orginated in your 'discomfort' with the Abhidhamma and commentaries . Whereas faults in the Theravada Sangha (s) need to be specified and actually treated in its cultural context.. with Metta Dieter P.S. : James:. BTW, the current corruption of the Sangha is not a minor issue; it is a central issue to Theravada and the future of Buddhism. D: assumed it is , so what is your idea to do about it .. ? #87676 From: TGrand458@... Date: Mon Jun 30, 2008 12:05 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditionality: Is it citta, cetasika, or rupa? TGrand458@... Hi All Conditionality is a "process."? What arises thereby is the same. TG #87677 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 30, 2008 12:19 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sangiitisutta corner. Commentary Part I. nilovg Dear Connie, Thank you for all the quotes you typed out, they are very good. I found them in my book. Nina. Op 30-jun-2008, om 19:08 heeft connie het volgende geschreven: > Masefield, Ud-a p.720 n.831 < Ap-a explains that the Lord once took > on a champion warrior of the Mallas who had attacked his fellow > villagers, and broke his back by hurling him into the air. As a > consequence, he suffered bodily pain and headaches wherever he came > into existence, whilst, in his final birth, he experienced > intermittent backpain, Ap-a then alluding to those occasions upon > which Saariputta (A v 123) or Moggallaana (S iv 184) was asked, for > this same reason, to take over from the Buddha when he was teaching. #87678 From: TGrand458@... Date: Mon Jun 30, 2008 12:27 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditionality: Is it citta, cetasika, or rupa? TGrand458@... Hi Tep, All I like?what you said?below Tep.? In my view, The "all" is just a continuously altering conditionality process.? To focus "just" on the "experiential" or to focus "just" on the "physical"?tends to miss?the greater?point IMO.? Anyway, If I were building a house, I wouldn't want to throw away any useful tools before I had finished it.? Nor would I want to use them inappropriately. TG T: His existence view is philosophical-based, yours is physical, based on the science that explains phenomena of the real world we live in. I do not think the Buddha's Dhamma is philosophical. On the other hand, I doubt if the existence and non-existence views are compatible with the Buddha's middle-way, non-extreme Teaching. Seeing and knowing the All as 'anatta' is mainly for non-clinging. Tep #87679 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 30, 2008 12:30 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddhist texts 101 - prerequisite: an historical perspective nilovg Hi Howard, Thank you for the link, Nina. Op 30-jun-2008, om 2:03 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/snp/index.html #87680 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Jun 30, 2008 3:16 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: response to hate mail etc - ... Credibility buddhatrue Hi Dieter, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Dieter Möller wrote: > > Hi James and all, > D: you forgot the Vinaya Pitaka , didn't you? It is very 'Theravadish'.. > Your suspicion about the origin of the Abhidhamma Pitaka is wellknown..nevertheless no clear evidence has been shown that its content is later scholarly work. > I for my part have no difficulty to respect the third basket as in case of doubt finally the first and the second are base for judgement ( Maha Parinibbana Sutta) I appreciate your continued enthusiasm to continue this discussion, but I¡¦m afraid I¡¦m going to have to bow out. I¡¦m preparing to travel to America; I¡¦m preparing documents to renew licenses, visas, work permits, etc.; and I¡¦m preparing to change jobs. That is a lot of change at one time and so I don¡¦t have the energy to continue this discussion on such a controversial and vast subject. If you have time, you can read the documents I referenced and we could continue this discussion at some future time. Metta, James #87681 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Jun 30, 2008 3:45 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: response to hate mail etc - ... Credibility kenhowardau Hi Dieter and James, Did someone rattle my chain? :-) > D: I think it is well said, in particular referring to 'the most significant discrepancies between the Canon and its commentaries concern meditation ' who in this list would refute the 'point of controversy'.. ? :-) > The answer is, 'All of us who believe that the Buddha's teaching (satipatthana) was to know a presently arisen paramattha dhamma.' When satipatthana is understood in this way there are no discrepancies whatsoever between the Canon and its commentaries. May I point out that J. Bullit (the author you are quoting) is a student of Ven Thanissaro - the monk who teaches annatta was just a strategy. Of course these people are going to discredit the Commentaries! They have to! They also have to discredit the Abhidhamma (although they do this in a less obvious way). Ken H PS: What are the so called discrepencies between the Canon and its commentaries? Can you give an example? #87682 From: "connie" Date: Mon Jun 30, 2008 5:20 pm Subject: Re: response to hate mail etc - ... Credibility nichiconn Dear Ken, speaking of rattling chains! -: Some sound like they're following right after the *footnote on page 36 of Carus (1897), Buddhism & Its Christiann Critics: *<< One might express the central thought of this 1st NT in the language of the 19th c. by saying that pain results from existence as an individual. It is the struggle to maintain one's individuality which produces pain - a most pregnant far-reaching suggestion. See for a further exposition the Fortnightly Review for Dec.1879 >> Well, no copy of that to hand, but a favorite quote from an earlier 1800's folklorist journal: "Krishna cult is more prominent than is generally suspected." peace, connie #87683 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Jun 30, 2008 5:41 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: response to hate mail etc - ... Credibility buddhatrue Hi Ken, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > PS: What are the so called discrepencies between the Canon and its > commentaries? Can you give an example? > In the article, Bullitt referenced this source for that statement: The Buddhist Religion (fourth edition), ("BR") by Richard H. Robinson and Willard L. Johnson (Belmont, California: Wadsworth, 1997). Pg. 145. (But perhaps these authors are also students of Thanissaro?!? It could be a conspiracy!! ;-)) Metta, James #87684 From: "m. nease" Date: Mon Jun 30, 2008 6:10 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: response to hate mail etc - ... Credibility m_nease Hi Connie (and Ken), Interesting stuff--"the struggle to maintain one's individuality which produces pain" sounds a bit like (frustrated) bhavata.nhaa to me. Of course if it's dukkha we're talking about, it includes 'The All' without exception. Singling out any kind of pain seems to me to risk overlooking the dukkha of pleasure etc. etc.. Come to think of it, the concept "the struggle to maintain one's individuality" also seems to depend on attadi.t.thi, don't you think? Not only "one's individuality" but also the one who can struggle to maintain it? mike connie wrote: > > > Dear Ken, > speaking of rattling chains! -: Some sound like they're following right > after the *footnote on page 36 of Carus (1897), Buddhism & Its > Christiann Critics: attachment (the conditions of individuality & their causes)* are > painful.> *<< One might express the central thought of this 1st NT in > the language of the 19th c. by saying that pain results from existence > as an individual. It is the struggle to maintain one's individuality > which produces pain - a most pregnant far-reaching suggestion. See for a > further exposition the Fortnightly Review for Dec.1879 >> Well, no copy > of that to hand, but a favorite quote from an earlier 1800's folklorist > journal: "Krishna cult is more prominent than is generally suspected." > peace, > connie #87685 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jun 30, 2008 2:12 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: response to hate mail etc - ... Credibility upasaka_howard Hi, James - In a message dated 6/30/2008 6:16:56 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@... writes: I¡¦m preparing to travel to America; I¡¦m preparing documents to renew licenses, visas, work permits, etc.; and I¡¦m preparing to change jobs. That is a lot of change at one time and so I don¡¦t have the energy to continue this discussion on such a controversial and vast subject. ================================= Best of luck with all the changes, James. This can be quite stressful - so keep up with your mere rite and ritual, ... er, meditation! ;-)) Will you be remaining in the U. S.? With metta, Howard #87686 From: "connie" Date: Mon Jun 30, 2008 7:09 pm Subject: Re: response to hate mail etc - ... Credibility nichiconn dear mike, exactly! connie mike: Interesting stuff--"the struggle to maintain one's individuality which produces pain" sounds a bit like (frustrated) bhavata.nhaa to me. Of course if it's dukkha we're talking about, it includes 'The All' without exception. Singling out any kind of pain seems to me to risk overlooking the dukkha of pleasure etc. etc.. Come to think of it, the concept "the struggle to maintain one's individuality" also seems to depend on attadi.t.thi, don't you think? Not only "one's individuality" but also the one who can struggle to maintain it? #87687 From: "Alex" Date: Mon Jun 30, 2008 8:19 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: response to hate mail etc - ... Credibility truth_aerator Hi Ken, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Ken H > > PS: What are the so called discrepencies between the Canon and its > commentaries? Can you give an example? > I dont know where to start... Lets get real, do we study Buddha Himself or commentaries of who knows who, the monks who couldn't (I hope this story is false) determine which were the major Vinaya rules and which the minor. DN16 - Buddha is the guide. Best wishes, Alex #87688 From: "Alex" Date: Mon Jun 30, 2008 8:22 pm Subject: Quantum Physics, Rebirth, World, Matter, etc truth_aerator Hello all, Some rough sketches & notes. The real world objects acording to Quantum Physics are only possibility waves , more precisely called wave functions that can be collapsed from possibility to actuality. If you take two screens, one has two holes, put it in front of another screen and pass the electron through the first screen - guess through which hole will ONE electron go through? Think... Through BOTH simulteneously (50/50). However this is only in possibility. The two possibility waves spread out on the second screen and form areas where they are cancelled out (in interference pattern) and where they aren't, and through both slits the electron can go where it couldn't go if there was only one hole. So electrons travel as possibility waves. What makes them actual? The observation effect OF CONSCIOUSNESS (Vinnana). When the observation is done, the possibilities collapse into actuality and into a particle we know as an electron. It is interesting that electron isn't like a tiny "ball". Ultimately it has no parts. So critiques of some philosophers the atomistic structure doesn't apply. Electron is more like a cloud of probabilities, rather than the gross macro objects we see. Quantum possibility waves collapse into actuality through conscious observation. Vinnana paccaya Nama-Rupa. Now interesting thing is that for this observation to happen there needs to be prior existing brain (with vinnana) , thus we have a circularity of tangled hierarchy. Vinnana <-> NamaRupa. The Observation has to be deliberate with volition ie Kammic. So sankhara (kamma, due to Avijja) has to be involved as well. "What one intends, what one arranges, and what one obsesses about:1 This is a support for the stationing of consciousness. There being a support, there is a landing [or: an establishing] of consciousness. When that consciousness lands and grows, there is the production of renewed becoming in the future. " http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.038.than.html attention -> "material" support for consciousness + more attention -- > more production of renewed becoming in the future. In quantum physics objects can become correlated (phase entangled) and be able to influence each other over distance AND time - ie non- localy. Apparently certain interpretations of quantum physics seem to suggest that there isn't space/time until it is observed causing the collapse of wave function form potentiality into an actuality. That with non-locality can suggest that the last moment of consciousness, due to latent avijja, produce Sankharas that will condition the first instance of vinnana in a new organism (nama-rupa) and its world. The thing however is that it doesn't need to happen the next moment, remember the relativity of time. The rebirth consciousness can be born in a different place and time (although subjectively there will be no experienced gap.) There have been experiments confirming non-locality, phase entanglement, communication and alteration of results through consciousness. This physical macro world (nama-rupa) is the result of such observations done through conscious intentions (vinnana & sankhara & avijja). Ultimately there may be one substance "wave" that can be either active (manifest) or potential (unmanifest). The body and present circumstances is the result of the previous cetana of various beings (remember, the body is previous kamma), thus there is a very limited degree of possibility in this macro world. Generally our bodies contain too many "particles" so the waves of possibilities is very tiny. However little changes through cetana (volition) ultimately can make great external differences, especially if this takes form of death proximate or weighty Kamma. Of course due to nonlocality and communication through time, not all effects (or personality traits) ripen immeadetely after the cause. So in the case of the little child, his past adult tendencies are latent, they will becoma manifest and ripen in due time. Positing One substance, really solves the Cartesian mind-body interaction dualism problem, and it perhaps answers "The body is past kamma (cetana)" . ================================================================ "Intention, I tell you, is kamma. Intending, one does kamma by way of body, speech, & intellect." — AN 6.63 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca4/samma- ditthi/kamma.html "Now what, monks, is old karma? The eye is to be seen as old karma, fabricated & willed, capable of being felt. The ear ... The nose ... The tongue ... The body ... The intellect is to be seen as old karma, fabricated & willed, capable of being felt. This is called old karma. " [previously collapsed wave function. Not much freedom of will in it.] "And what is new kamma? Whatever kamma one does now with the body, with speech, or with the intellect: This is called new kamma. [current intiontional actions causing wave function collapsed now and in the future.] "And what is the cessation of kamma? [Cessation of renewed wave function collapses in the future] Whoever touches the release that comes from the cessation of bodily kamma, verbal kamma, & mental kamma: This is called the cessation of kamma. SN35.145 ===================================================== Just some thoughts... Best wishes, Alex #87689 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Mon Jun 30, 2008 8:48 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:How does rebirth happen? cuticitta-->-?--> patisandhicitta egberdina Hi Alex, 2008/6/30 Alex : > Hi Herman, > >> > > There may be such a thing called (quantum) non-locality. Last moment > of consciousness (Citta, nama, cetasika, call it as you will) sends > and conditions the first moment of the consciousness in a new > organism which is logical continuation. What is sent could be "I > am", a separate 1st person perspective/separation. I would think that a logical continuation would need to take into account that consciousness is dependent on form. There can be no logical continuation between a human consciousness and a worm consciousness, for example. The hardware is just not the same, IMO. And that same argument would hold for human to human continuation. A baby's brain is significantly different to an adult brain, it cannot produce a consciousness that is vaguely similar to an adult's. Cheers Herman #87690 From: Dieter Möller Date: Tue Jul 1, 2008 1:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: response to hate mail etc - ... Credibility moellerdieter Hi Ken, you wrote: 'Did someone rattle my chain? :-)' D: not only ;-) , but all , ' who believe that the Buddha's teaching (satipatthana) was to know a presently arisen paramattha dhamma.' Ken : When satipatthana is understood in this way there are no discrepancies whatsoever between the Canon and its commentaries. D: good advise , Ken .. so why don't we altogether see the Buddha Dhamma through that kind of spectacles ..? ;-) with Metta Dieter #87691 From: "szmicio" Date: Tue Jul 1, 2008 1:43 am Subject: What is a diffrence between samma-sati and samma-samadhi szmicio I know that sati is a cetsika which assists some cittas. And then there is a samma-sati, but what is samma-samadhi? Nice holidays Lukas #87692 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 1, 2008 2:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] What is a diffrence between samma-sati and samma-samadhi nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 1-jul-2008, om 10:43 heeft szmicio het volgende geschreven: > I know that sati is a cetasika which assists some cittas. ------- N: It accompanies each sobhana (beautiful) citta. Whenever kusala citta arises, there is also sati that is non-forgetful of kusala. There is sati of the level of daana, of siila, of samatha and of vipassanaa. --------- > L: And then > there is a samma-sati, but what is samma-samadhi? -------- N: Samma-sati, right mindfulness, and samma-samaadhi, right concentration, are factors of the eightfold Path that develop together with the other factors. They are accompanied by right understanding of the eightfold Path, samma-di.t.thi. When there is mindfulness of a rupa such as sound, and right understanding realizes it as a kind of rupa, there is also right concentration that assists the other Path factors, performing its function of focussing on that object. If there is any idea of trying to focus, it is not the development of the eightfold Path. Nina. #87693 From: "szmicio" Date: Tue Jul 1, 2008 2:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] What is a diffrence between samma-sati and samma-samadhi szmicio Dear Nina Your answers are always helpful. > > I know that sati is a cetasika which assists some cittas. > ------- > N: It accompanies each sobhana (beautiful) citta. Whenever kusala > citta arises, there is also sati that is non-forgetful of kusala. > There is sati of the level of daana, of siila, of samatha and of > vipassanaa. > --------- Can you say something about diffrent levels of sati.I always thought that sati is just aware of reality as it naturaly apears. bye Lukas #87694 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 1, 2008 2:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sangiitisutta corner. Commentary Part I. nilovg Dear Scott and Connie, Op 30-jun-2008, om 13:24 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: > I don't mind introductions. I wonder if 'viharati' implies a > sense of 'being' as well as 'being somewhere'? 'Stays' 'Revisits' > 'Resides' - 'Is'. -------- N: Vibhanga (Book of Analysis) Ch 7, 358: dwells (viharati) means: Assumes the four postures, exists, protects, keeps going, maintains, turns about, dwells... Vibhanga Ch 7, 363: ("dwells"), herein, without asking the question: 'What is dwelling?' he said iriyati ("bears himself"), teaching by means of a discourse which is concerned with a person (puggalaadhi.t.thaanaa desanaa). The meaning of that is that because of being possessed of some one out of the four postures (iriyaapatha) he bears himself (iriyati). By means of these tetrads of postures, vattati ("he proceeds") with the procedure of the body- cart. Paaleti ("he guards") because of protecting the body by means of long endurance through getting rid of the suffering of one posture by means of another posture; yapeti ("he carries on") because of proceeding in all the postures through not settling down in one posture; yaapeti ("he maintains") because of the maintaining of the body in such and such wise with this or that posture; carati ("he wanders") because of causing to proceed for a long time; viharati <194.31> ("he dwells") because of prolonging (hara.na) life by interrupting (vicchinditvaa) posture by posture. -------- P.S. As to the Sangitisutta, Connie, I am working on the One dhamma, aahara, and this is long. I cannot translate all of it, too much typing out. But the Twos, etc. are shorter explanations, easier to work with. Nina. #87695 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 1, 2008 2:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] What is a diffrence between samma-sati and samma-samadhi nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 1-jul-2008, om 11:25 heeft szmicio het volgende geschreven: > Can you say something about diffrent levels of sati.I always thought > that sati is just aware of reality as it naturaly apears. ------- N: Suppose there is an opportunity for daana, such as giving something to someone in need, or anumodana daana, appreciating another person's kusala, but instead of using this opportunity you may be lazy or just forgetful to take action. Then there is no sati. But if you use the opportunity for dana, it is not you, but sati that is non-forgetful of kusala. If you appreciate the value of kusala there are more conditions for being non-forgetful, aware of kusala. The same goes of siila, which includes not only abstaining from akusala, but also helping others and paying respect to those who deserve it. Someone else needs help and instead of being lazy and forgetful, sati is non-forgetful, remembers using the opportunity. Because of sati one may react immediately, without hesitation. So it is with satipatthana. There are nama and rupa appearing all the time, but usually we are inert or absorbed in pleasant things. But there may be conditions for sati because of listening to the Dhamma and seeing the value of sati. It may arise and be aware of nama or rupa, although in the beginning there is no clear understanding of the difference between nama and rupa. Sati arises and then falls away, but it is accumulated so that it can arise again. At the moment of sati pa~n~naa can at that moment have more understanding of the nama or rupa sati is aware of. Our aim is the development of understanding, our aim is not: many moments of sati. Nina. #87696 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jul 1, 2008 4:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Stopping akusala sarahprocter... Hi James, Back to hiri and ottappa - with access to books now! --- On Sat, 21/6/08, buddhatrue wrote: >>S: On hiri and ottappa (moral shame and scruples), >James: It's Moral Shame and Moral Fear, not "scruples". ... S: However you translate them, be sure to understand that they are 'beautiful' (sobhana) factors - no aversion or fear with dosa involved. .... >> S: In the arahant, hiri and ottappa have been perfected. The smallest faults, the subtlest of lobhas, have been seen and eradicated. Hiri and ottappa still arise with all sobhana (beautiful) cittas, including the kiriya cittas of the arahant. >James: Again, I would like some sort of quote from the texts to support this. .... S: CMA, ch II, Compendium of Mental Factors: "The Beautiful Factors - 25 9sobhanacetasika) #5 The Universal Beautiful Factors (sobhanasaaadhaara.na) - 19 1) Saddhaa, 2)sati, 3) hiri, 4) ottappa.m, 5)alobho, 6)adoso, 7)tatramajjhattataa, 8) kaayapassaddhi, 9) cittapasaddhi, 10)kaayalahutaa, 11)cittalahutaa, 12)kaayamudutaa, 130cittamudutaa, 14)kaayakamma~n`nataa, 15) cittakamma~n~nataa, 16) kaayapaagu~n~nataa, 17)cittapaagu~n~nataa, 18) kaayujjukataa, 19)cittujjukataa......" '....these nineteen mental factors are termed the universal beautiful factors.' S: As the guide goes on to stress, these 19 cetasikas are "invariably pressent in all beautiful consciousness'. This means that they (inc. hiri and ottappa) accompany all kusala cittas and the kiriya cittas of the arahants which arise in place of kusala cittas. .... >James: Well, if you post on it again then please have some textual support from some sort of ancient text (and not Nina's books). .... S: Before you reply and tell me that the Abhidhammattha Sangaha (translated in CMA) doesn't qualify either because it's not from the Suttanta, let me remind you that recently you've been quoting from Wikipedia, John Bullitt and Ab. in Daily Life by Ashin Janakabhivamsa:-) ... >>S: Thanks for the useful discussion, James. >James: I think it has been completely unuseful, for everyone. ... S: Perhaps down the line you or someone else will find it useful to appreciate that dosa (including the fear which arises with it) of any kind or degree is always useless and unwholesome in every aspect. hiri and ottappa can never arise with such unwholesome states. Appreciating your discussion with Dieter and others too. Metta, Sarah >James: The weather here has been really terrible also. Raining all the time. I am starting to call Taiwan "Water World". :-) ... S: It's been the same in Hong Kong - the wettest month for over 125 years. We're very fortunate to have been away..... and going away again soon. I taught and counselled through about 25 summers here and happy to have the break:-). ============== #87697 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jul 1, 2008 12:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] What is a diffrence between samma-sati and samma-samadhi upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Lukas) - In a message dated 7/1/2008 5:09:03 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: N: Samma-sati, right mindfulness, and samma-samaadhi, right concentration, are factors of the eightfold Path that develop together with the other factors. They are accompanied by right understanding of the eightfold Path, samma-di.t.thi. When there is mindfulness of a rupa such as sound, and right understanding realizes it as a kind of rupa, there is also right concentration that assists the other Path factors, performing its function of focussing on that object. If there is any idea of trying to focus, it is not the development of the eightfold Path. =============================== There is also the following, copied from ATI: "And what is right concentration? There is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities — enters & remains in the _first jhana_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca4/samma-samadhi/jhana.html\ #j1) : rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters & remains in the _second jhana_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca4/samma-samadhi/jhana.html\ #j2) : rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. With the fading of rapture, he remains in equanimity, is mindful & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the _third jhana_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca4/samma-samadhi/jhana.html\ #j3) , of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — he enters & remains in the _fourth jhana_ (http://www.acc esstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca4/samma-samadhi/jhana.html#j4) : purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is called right concentration." — _SN 45.8_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn45/sn45.008.than.html) With metta, Howard #87698 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jul 1, 2008 12:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] What is a diffrence between samma-sati and samma-samadhi upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Lukas) - In a message dated 7/1/2008 5:44:09 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Suppose there is an opportunity for daana, such as giving something to someone in need, or anumodana daana, appreciating another person's kusala, but instead of using this opportunity you may be lazy or just forgetful to take action. Then there is no sati. But if you use the opportunity for dana, it is not you, but sati that is non-forgetful of kusala. ============================== And, so, is it sati that notes the current conditions as an opportunity for dana, recognizing some person in need? That sounds quite conventional to me. And does it occur all in an instant? As I see it, this requires the cooperation of many namas, including mindfulness, over an extended period of time. With metta, Howard #87699 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Tue Jul 1, 2008 5:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: response to hate mail etc - revised and corrected edition egberdina Hi KenH, 2008/6/30 kenhowardau : > Hi Herman, > ---------------------- > > H: > Cars and driving are only shortcut words that refer to specific > combinations of namas and rupas. And until there is knowledge of the > relationships between specific namas and rupas, I do not think you are > in a position to say anything about control. > ----------------------- > > Again, this is not Theravada Dhamma. Along with many other > [misguided] DSG members you refer to a reality that is not found in > the texts. The texts contain no references to complex networks of > inter-related namas and rupas. IMHO, such things would be just Self > by another name. > > I preferred the sitting duck Herman. :-) > You're a funny fellow, KenH. It was only just the other day that you typed out a whole bunch of stuff on nonads and decads. No interrelations there, of course, only pure Theravada Dhamma that was as uplifting for me to read as it was for you to type :-) Cheers Herman #87700 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Jul 1, 2008 5:12 am Subject: Sangiitisutta Corner DN 33 1.6-1.7 scottduncan2 Dear All, One last introductory passage: CSCD Bhinnaniga.n.thavatthu 301. Tena kho pana samayena niga.n.tho naa.taputto paavaaya.m adhunaakaala'nkato hoti. Tassa kaala'nkiriyaaya bhinnaa niga.n.thaa dvedhikajaataa [ddhe.lhakajaataa (syaa. ka.m.)] bha.n.danajaataa kalahajaataa vivaadaapannaa a~n~nama~n~na.m mukhasattiihi vitudantaa viharanti [vicaranti (syaa. ka.m.)] â€" <>ti. Vadhoyeva kho ma~n~ne niga.n.thesu naa.taputtiyesu vattati. Yepi [yepi te (sii. pii.)] niga.n.thassa naa.taputtassa saavakaa gihii odaatavasanaa, tepi niga.n.thesu naa.taputtiyesu nibbinnaruupaa virattaruupaa pa.tivaanaruupaa, yathaa ta.m durakkhaate dhammavinaye duppavedite aniyyaanike anupasamasa.mvattanike asammaasambuddhappavedite bhinnathuupe appa.tisara.ne. Walshe DN 33.1.6 Now at that time the Niga.n.tha Naataputta [iii 210] had just died at Paavaa. And at his death the Niga.n.thas were split into two parties, quarreling and disputing, (as in Sutta 29 - Paasaadika, verse 1) {p.427: DN 29.1: And at his death the Niga.n.thas were split into two parties, quarreling and disputing, fighting and attacking each other with wordy warfare: 'You don't understand this doctrine and discipline - I do!' 'How could you understand this doctrine and discipline?' 'Your way is all wrong - mine is right!' 'I am consistent - you aren't!' 'You said last what you should have said first, and you said first what you should have said last!' 'What you took so long to think up has been refuted!' 'Your argument has been overthrown, you're defeated!' 'Go on, save your doctrine - get out of that if you can!') You would have thought the Niga.n.thas, Naataputta's disciples, were bent on killing each other. Even the white-robed lay followers were disgusted, displeased and repelled when they saw that their doctrine and discipline was so ill-proclaimed, so unedifyingly displayed, and so ineffectual in calming the passions, having been proclaimed by one not fully enlightened, and now with its supporter gone, without an arbiter. *901.} Olds The Nigantha, Nathason, friends has recently deceased, and since his death the Niganthas have fallen apart and live quarreling amongst each other, using a variety of wounding words and wrangling phrases such as: "You don’t understand this Dhamma, I do." "How could someone like you know about this Dhamma?" "You hold wrong view. It is I who have right view." "I am speaking to the point, you are not." "You are putting last what ought to come first, and first what ought to come last." "What you’ve been expounding so long, is completely disproved." "Your challenge has been met." "You are proved to be wrong." "Straighten up your act." "Get out of this one if you can." The ruckus is such that even the lay followers are fed up. And what is the reason for this? It is because the Dhamma of the Niganthas was Poorly Taught, being Taught by one who was not a Fully Englightened One. And now that Nathason has gone, the group is without cohesion and has no leadership. RDs 'So be it, lord,' replied Saariputta. Then the Exalted One, letting his robe be folded in four, took up the lion-posture on his right side, placing his feet one in the curve of the other, mindful and deliberate,7 having mentally noted a time for arousing himself. [ 210 ] Now at that time the Niga.n.tha, Naatha's son, had just died at Paava..8 After his death the Niga.n.thas became divided, falling into opposite parties and into strife, disputes broke out and they went on wounding each other with wordy weapons: -- Thou dost not confess this Norm and Discipline! I do confess it! Wilt thou confess it? Thou are in the wrong! I am practising it rightly! I am speaking to the point; thou art off the point! Thou sayest last what should be said first, and first what should come last! What thou hast so long excogitated is quite upset! Thy challenge is taken up; thou'rt proved to be wrong! Begone to get rid of thy opinion, or disentangle thyself if thou canst! Truly the Niga.n.thas, followers of Naathaputta, were out methinks to kill. Even the lay disciples of the white robe, who followed Naathaputta, showed themselves shocked,9 repelled and indignant at the Niga.n.thas, so badly was their doctrine and discipline set forth and imparted, so ineffectual was it for guidance, so little conducive to peace, imparted as it had been by one who was not supremely enlightened, and now wrecked as it was of his support and without a protector. CSCD 302. Atha kho aayasmaa saariputto bhikkhuu aamantesi â€" <>. < Date: Tue Jul 1, 2008 6:07 am Subject: [dsg] Re:How does rebirth happen? cuticitta-->-?--> patisandhicitta truth_aerator Hi Herman, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > > Hi Alex, > > 2008/6/30 Alex : > > Hi Herman, > > > >> > > > > There may be such a thing called (quantum) non-locality. Last moment > > of consciousness (Citta, nama, cetasika, call it as you will) sends > > and conditions the first moment of the consciousness in a new > > organism which is logical continuation. What is sent could be "I > > am", a separate 1st person perspective/separation. > > I would think that a logical continuation would need to take into > account that consciousness is dependent on form. >>> Yes consciousness IS dependent on something. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >There can be no logical continuation between a human consciousness >and a worm consciousness, for example. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Often very old (and senile) people do behave like children. So there may be correlation. >>>>> >The hardware is just not the same, IMO. >>>> The hardware isn't the same in a 1 month, 5 year, 25 year, 85 year old "John". Yet they aren't different "streams". One ever changing cause-effect stream. And again, due to conditionality, impermanence and not self, the conscious capacity, functioning, content, frequently changes. Reading a bit of stuff on Quantum Mechanics suggests that there may be a nonlocal communication, maybe even transferance of the conscious stream through time-space. Best wishes, Alex #87703 From: "R. K. Wijayaratne" Date: Tue Jul 1, 2008 5:34 am Subject: The Great Discourse on the Lion's Roar - IX * rwijayaratne  Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammâ Sambuddhassa!   Sakyamuni Sambuddha Vihara ~ Dhamma Message ~ <....> Taken from AccessToInsight.org1 Translated from Pali by Ñanamoli Thera & Bhikkhu Bodhi THE GREAT DISCOURSE ON THE LION'S ROAR - IX Majjhima Nikâya 12 - Maha-sihanada Sutta2 The Five Destinations and Nibbâna — In DetailContinued from previous instalment Commentary: The Lord Buddha explains in detail how a Samma-Sambuddha is able to see and understand the five destinations and Nibbâna and the path and way leading to these five destinations and Nibbâna.   40. (4) "By encompassing mind with mind I understand a certain person thus: 'This person so behaves, so conducts himself, has taken such a path that on the dissolution of the body, after death, he will reappear among human beings.' And then later on, with the divine eye, which is purified and surpasses the human, I see that on the dissolution of the body, after death, he has reappeared among human beings and is experiencing much pleasant feeling. Suppose there were a tree growing on even ground with thick foliage casting a deep shade; and then a man scorched and exhausted by hot weather, weary, parched and thirsty, came by a path going in one way only and directed to that same tree. Then a man with good sight on seeing him would say: 'This person so behaves, so conducts himself, has taken such a path, that he will come to this same tree'; and then later on he sees that he is sitting or lying in the shade of that tree experiencing much pleasant feeling. So too, by encompassing mind with mind... much pleasant feelings[76] Explanation: The Lord Buddha says that he understands by reading a person's mind that s/he behaves, acts in such and such a way, has taken such and such a ( skilful/good) path ( practices and habits performed with thoughts, words and deeds) and ( because of that) on the break-up of the body, after death will be reborn among human beings ( as a human being; present existence). Later on, the Lord Buddha sees with his divine eye, which is pure and is capable of seeing past the human eye, that that same being has indeed been reborn among human beings following the break-up of their body and death and is experiencing very pleasant feelings. The Lord Buddha says he sees/understands this in the same way as when ( simile follows) a man who is scorched and tired from hot weather, tired, very dry and thirsty was going only in one direction and were to be directed to a tree growing on even ground, with thick foliage, casting a deep shade and another person with good eye-sight on seeing this man would say 'This person behaves, conducts himself in such a way and has taken such a path/direction that would cause him to come to that same tree ( in the same way that the Lord Buddha is able to understand and see by reading another's mind that their ( skilful/good) actions and path they have taken would cause them to be reborn among human beings after death). Then later this person sees that that man is indeed sitting or lying under that tree ( as earlier predicted) and is experiencing very pleasant feelings ( in the same way that the Lord Buddha is able to see with his divine eye a being reborn among human beings (as previously foreseen by the Lord Buddha) and now experiencing very pleasant feelings).3   41. (5) "By encompassing mind with mind I understand a certain person thus: 'This person so behaves, so conducts himself, has taken such a path that on the dissolution of the body, after death, he will reappear in a happy destination, in the heavenly world.' And then later on, with the divine eye, which is purified and surpasses the human, I see that on the dissolution of the body, after death, he has reappeared in a happy destination, in the heavenly world and is experiencing extremely pleasant feelings. Suppose there were a mansion, and it had an upper chamber plastered within and without, shut off, secured by bars, with shuttered windows, and in it there was a couch spread with rugs, blankets and sheets, with a deerskin coverlet, with a canopy as well as crimson pillows for both (head and feet); and then a man scorched and exhausted by hot weather, weary, parched and thirsty, came by a path going in one way only and directed to that same mansion. Then a man with good sight on seeing him would say: 'This person so behaves, so conducts himself, has taken such a path, that he will come to this same mansion'; and later on he sees that he is sitting or lying in that upper chamber in that mansion experiencing extremely pleasant feelings. So too, by encompassing mind with mind... extremely pleasant feelings. Explanation: The Lord Buddha says that he understands by reading a person's mind that s/he behaves, acts in such and such a way, has taken such and such a ( skilful/good) path and ( because of that) on the break-up of the body, after death they will be reborn in a heavenly realm ( as an divine being). Later on, the Lord Buddha sees with his divine eye, which is pure and is capable of seeing past the human eye, that that same being has indeed been reborn in a happy place, a heavenly realm following the break-up of their body and death and is experiencing extremely pleasant feelings. The Lord Buddha says he sees/understands this in the same way as when ( simile follows) a man who is scorched and tired from hot weather, tired, very dry and thirsty was going only in one direction and were to be directed to a mansion with a upper ( level) room plastered within and without, shut off and secured with bars, with windows and shutters and there was a couch inside with rugs, blankets, sheets, a deerskin coverlet, with a ( overhead) canopy and crimson pillows for both head and feet and another person with good eye-sight on seeing this man would say 'This person behaves, conducts himself in such a way and has taken such a path/direction that would cause him to come to that same mansion. Then later this person sees that that man is indeed sitting or lying down ( on the bed) in the upper room of that mansion ( as earlier predicted) and is experiencing extremely pleasant feelings.   (6) "By encompassing mind with mind I understand a certain person thus: 'This person so behaves, so conducts himself, has taken such a path that by realizing it for himself with direct knowledge, he here and now will enter upon and abide in the deliverance of mind and deliverance by wisdom that are taintless with the destruction of the taints.' And then later on I see that by realizing it for himself with direct knowledge, he here and now enters upon and abides in the deliverance of mind and deliverance by wisdom that are taintless with the destruction of the taints, and is experiencing extremely pleasant feelings.4 Suppose there were a pond with clean, agreeable, cool water, transparent, with smooth banks, delightful, and nearby a dense wood; and then a man scorched and exhausted by hot weather, weary, parched and thirsty, came by a path going in one way only and directed towards that same pond. Then a man with good sight on seeing him would say: 'This person so behaves, so conducts himself, has taken such a path, that he will come to this same pond'; and then later on he sees that he has plunged into the pond, bathed, drunk and relieved all his distress, fatigue and fever and has come out again and is sitting or lying in the wood [77] experiencing extremely pleasant feelings. So too, by encompassing mind with mind... extremely pleasant feelings. These are the five destinations. Explanation: The Lord Buddha says that he understands by reading a person's mind that s/he behaves, acts in such and such a way, has taken such and such a ( skilful/good) path and ( because of that) s/he here and now enters and abides in the deliverance/freedom of mind through wisdom, that is free of all mental taints/defilements, by realizing it (Nibbâna) for him/herself through direct knowledge ( and experience). Later on, the Lord Buddha sees that by realizing it (Nibbâna) for him/herself through direct knowledge ( and experience) s/he here and now enters and abides in the deliverance/freedom of mind through wisdom, that is free of all mental taints/defilements and is experiencing extremely pleasant feelings.  The Lord Buddha says he sees/understands this in the same way as when ( simile follows) a man who is scorched and tired from hot weather, tired, very dry and thirsty was going only in one direction and were to be directed to a pond with clean, agreeable and cool water, transparent ( and clear), with smooth banks, wonderful and close to a thick wood ( of trees) and another person with good eye-sight on seeing this man would say 'This person behaves, conducts himself in such a way and has taken such a path/direction that would cause him to come to that same pond. Then later this other person sees that that man has dived into that pool, bathed, drunk and relieved all his distress, tiredness and fever and has come out of the pond and is sitting or lying down in the wood and is experiencing extremely pleasant feelings.   31. "Sâriputta, when I know and see thus, should anyone say of me: 'The recluse Gotama does not have any superhuman states, any distinction in knowledge and vision worthy of the noble ones. The recluse Gotama (Lord Buddha's name) teaches a Dhamma (merely) hammered out by reasoning, following his own line of inquiry as it occurs to him' — unless he abandons that assertion and that state of mind and relinquishes that view, then as (surely as if he had been) carried off and put there he will wind up in hell.5 Just as a bhikkhu (monk) possessed of virtue, concentration and wisdom would here and now enjoy final knowledge, so it will happen in this case, I say, that unless he abandons that assertion and that state of mind and relinquishes that view, then as (surely as if he had been) carried off and put there he will wind up in hell. Explanation: The Lord Buddha explains to Ven. Sâriputta that when he knows and sees like this, if anyone were to wrongly say that the Lord Buddha did not have any superhuman powers, higher knowledge that a high/noble one can have and only teaches the Dhamma from reasoning, following a line of investigation/thinking and if that person does not abandon this opinion/view, then as if s/he were carried off and put there s/he would go to hell after death; in the same way a monk who posses virtue/morality (sîla), concentration (samâdhi) and wisdom (paññâ) would be assured of final knowledge/realization (Nibbâna) right here and now. <...> Notes1. More suttas from AccessToInsight.org can be found here http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sutta.html 2. This sutta can be found in full here http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.012.ntbb.html and an alternate translation of this sutta can be found here http://www.mettanet.org/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima1/012-ma\ hasihanada-sutta-e1.html 3. Also refer to The Thirty-one Planes of Existence here http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sagga/loka.html 4. Comy. (orig.): Even though the description is the same as that of the bliss of the heavenly world, the meaning is different. For the bliss of the heavenly world is not really extremely pleasant because the fevers of lust, etc. are still present there. But the bliss of Nibbâna is extremely pleasant in every way through the subsiding of all fevers. <....> #87704 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Tue Jul 1, 2008 6:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddhist texts 101 - prerequisite: an historical perspective egberdina Hi Nina, 2008/6/30 Nina van Gorkom : > BTW, talking about music, do you still play the organ? Do you still > have a band with your children, but meanwhile they must be grown up, > are they? Only very occasionally do I play these days, and when I do, I play very badly. And that is to be expected when there is no practice :-) Yes, my children are grown up and gone. When they were about twelve years old, I went from being Dad to best friend, and so it has stayed. You never tell them when they are young, but at 12 years of age, they know as much as you do :-) Now only Vicki's youngest one keeps a bedroom here, and blesses us with a visit when what we are cooking for dinner is more to his liking than what his girlfriend's mum is cooking. Ahh, to be young again. No thanks :-) Cheers Herman #87705 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Jul 1, 2008 7:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Stopping akusala buddhatrue Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi James, > > Back to hiri and ottappa - with access to books now! James: Glad to have you back. Hope you had a nice trip. Sorry I got snappy in that last post but I didn't realize you didn't have access to your books. Actually, I didn't even know you were away. I can't keep up with all of the posts. > > --- On Sat, 21/6/08, buddhatrue wrote: > > >>S: On hiri and ottappa (moral shame and scruples), > > >James: It's Moral Shame and Moral Fear, not "scruples". > ... > S: However you translate them, be sure to understand that they are 'beautiful' (sobhana) factors - no aversion or fear with dosa involved. James: Okay, now does "beautiful" really mean that there is no aversion or fear involved in any circumstance? Do the texts specifically say that or is that your interpretation. For example, I find moral shame and fear of wrongdoing "beautiful". Even though the feeling is fearful, it is beautiful to me because it is a guardian of sila. The term "beautiful" is very subjective. > .... > > >> S: In the arahant, hiri and ottappa have been perfected. The > smallest faults, the subtlest of lobhas, have been seen and > eradicated. Hiri and ottappa still arise with all sobhana > (beautiful) cittas, including the kiriya cittas of the arahant. > > >James: Again, I would like some sort of quote from the texts to > support this. > .... > S: CMA, ch II, Compendium of Mental Factors: > > "The Beautiful Factors - 25 9sobhanacetasika) > > #5 The Universal Beautiful Factors (sobhanasaaadhaara.na) - 19 > > 1) Saddhaa, 2)sati, 3) hiri, 4) ottappa.m, 5)alobho, 6)adoso, 7) tatramajjhattataa, 8) kaayapassaddhi, 9) cittapasaddhi, 10) kaayalahutaa, 11)cittalahutaa, 12)kaayamudutaa, 130cittamudutaa, 14) kaayakamma~n`nataa, 15) cittakamma~n~nataa, 16) kaayapaagu~n~nataa, 17)cittapaagu~n~nataa, 18) kaayujjukataa, 19)cittujjukataa......" > > '....these nineteen mental factors are termed the universal beautiful factors.' > > S: As the guide goes on to stress, these 19 cetasikas are "invariably pressent in all beautiful consciousness'. This means that they (inc. hiri and ottappa) accompany all kusala cittas and the kiriya cittas of the arahants which arise in place of kusala cittas. James: First, thanks for the quote. Second, I have a question about your transference of kusala cittas and kiriya cittas. Are they the same? Could it be said that what is true of one is true of the other. Really, I am out of my depth with this subject as I don't study this material, but I am finding it difficult to believe what you are saying. I don't see any direct evidence, yet. > .... > >James: Well, if you post on it again then please have some textual > support from some sort of ancient text (and not Nina's books). > .... > S: Before you reply and tell me that the Abhidhammattha Sangaha (translated in CMA) doesn't qualify either because it's not from the Suttanta, let me remind you that recently you've been quoting from Wikipedia, John Bullitt and Ab. in Daily Life by > Ashin Janakabhivamsa:-) James: LOL! Of course the Abhidhammattha Sangaha or the CMA qualifies for this discussion. I was wanting to know what the ancient texts say in this regard; that doesn't mean I have to agree with them, I just want to know what they say. Sarah, over the years in DSG I have found that I don't disagree so much with the ancient texts as much as I just disagree with the way some members interpret those texts. And, what I quote from is limited because I don't have a whole library filled with these ancient texts. I only have what I can find on the Internet. But, even though I am at a disadvantage in this discussion, you can see I refuse to be intimidated. :-) > ... > >>S: Thanks for the useful discussion, James. > > >James: I think it has been completely unuseful, for everyone. > ... > S: Perhaps down the line you or someone else will find it useful to appreciate that dosa (including the fear which arises with it) of any kind or degree is always useless and unwholesome in every aspect. hiri and ottappa can never arise with such unwholesome states. James: I'm still not so sure. If it is fear of wrongdoing I believe that is wholesome, beautiful, and very useful. > > Appreciating your discussion with Dieter and others too. James: Had to cut that one short. Going traveling. But I had to respond to this post because I have been waiting a looooong time for a response. :-) Metta, James #87706 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 1, 2008 7:25 am Subject: Visuddhimagga, Ch XVII, 273-276 and Tiika. nilovg Visuddhimagga, Ch XVII, 273-276 [SECTION C. THE WHEEL OF BECOMING] Intro: After the explanation in detail of all the links of the Dependent Origination, the Visuddhimagga now gives a general vision of the Wheel of Becoming and shows different aspects of it. The first link is ignorance and at the end of the teaching of the Dependent Origination it is stated: conditioned by birth, old age, death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair come into being. It is explained that ignorance is established by sorrow etc. Further it has been explained that the cankers, aasavas, beginning with the canker of sense-desire, condition sorrow etc. ---------- ---------- Text Vis. 273: [(i) The Wheel] Now here at the end sorrow, etc., are stated. Consequently, the ignorance stated at the beginning of the Wheel of Becoming thus, 'With ignorance as condition there are formations', is established by the sorrow and so on. -------- N: The Tiika explains that not only birth is the condition for sorrow etc. but that also ignorance is a condition for sorrow etc. As to the word “here”. the Tiika adds: in the teaching of the Dependent Origination. ------- Text Vis.: So it should accordingly be understood that: Becoming's Wheel reveals no known beginning; No maker, no experiencer there; Void with a twelvefold voidness, and nowhere It ever halts; forever it is spinning. ------ N: The Tiika explains that it turns around constantly, all the time, without interruption, until the highest attainment. Until arahatship has been attained. For him there is no rebirth, he is freed from the cycle. ---------- Text Vis. 274: But (1) how is ignorance established by sorrow, etc.? (2) How has this Wheel of Becoming no known beginning? (3) How is there no maker or experiencer there? (4) How is it void with twelvefold voidness? Text Vis. 275: 1. Sorrow, grief and despair are inseparable from ignorance; and lamentation is found in one who is deluded. So, firstly, when these are established, ignorance is established. Furthermore, 'With the arising of cankers there is the arising of ignorance' (M.i,54) is said, and with the arising of cankers these things beginning with sorrow come into being. How? -------- N: Aasava is translated as canker, or intoxicant. Four kinds of defilements are classified as aasava: the canker of sense-desire, kaamaasava, the canker of clinging to rebirth, bhaavaasava, the canker of wrong view, di.t.thaasava and the canker of ignorance, avijjaasava. --------- Text Vis. 276: Firstly, sorrow about separation from sense desires as object has its arising in the canker of sense desire, according as it is said: 'If, desiring and lusting, his desires elude him, He suffers as though an arrow had pierced him' (Sn.767), and according as it is said: 'Sorrow springs from sense desires' (Dh. 215). ------- N: The Tiika explains the Pali term ‘kaamayaanassa’, meaning: for the person who desires. ‘Yaana’ means vehicle. He has desire as his vehicle and keeps going because of it. As to the text, ‘separation from sense desires as object’, the Pali uses the term vatthukaamaviyoga, separation from vatthukaama, from all that is the foundation of clinging. As to ‘ if...his desires elude him’, the Tiika explains, if his sense desires dwindle away, disappear. As to ‘he suffers’, he is agitated (kuppati) by sorrow etc. ------------ Conclusion: Sorrow is conditioned by ignorance, including ignorance of cause and effect, ignorance of realities. As we read: ‘ Sorrow, grief and despair are inseparable from ignorance’. Whenever sorrow arises, the citta is akusala citta and each akusala citta is accompanied by ignorance. The canker of sense desire leads to sorrow and since sorrow is accompanied by ignorance, ignorance is established, it is accumulated. Gain and loss are among the vicissitudes of life. Kusala kamma is the cause of the experience of pleasant objects through the senses and akusala kamma is the cause of the experience of unpleasant objects through the senses. When pleasant objects disappear we are agitated, we suffer. This can also be applied to the loss of dear people. Their company gives us pleasure and when they have passed away we lament our lack of this pleasure. Ignorance is the first link of the Wheel of Becoming, and conditioned by ignorance there are kamma-formations which condition rebirth, and thus the cycle goes on. We read that there is no maker of the Wheel, no experiencer. Through the Dhamma we can learn that whatever is experienced is a conditioned dhamma, not a person. ******** Nina. #87707 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 1, 2008 7:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] What is a diffrence between samma-sati and samma-samadhi nilovg Hi Howard, Op 1-jul-2008, om 13:40 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > And what is right concentration? There is the case where a monk — > quite > withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) > qualities — enters > & remains in the _first jhana_ -------- N: As I read: 'There is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities'. The monk who sees the the benefit of attachment to sense pleasures and has accumulated skill for jhana can develop both jhaana and vipassanaa and this is to be highly praised. However, when he emerges from jhaana he has to be aware of all namas and rupas, including the jhaanacittas. Otherwise he thinks: it is my jhaanacitta. Also in this case right understanding of the eightfold Path accompanied by the pathfactors right mindfulness and right concentration, and by the other path factors is indispensable. The object at such moments is nama and rupa, so that all the stages of insight can arise and enlightenment be attained. When we read right concentration, right concentration which is sammaa samaadhi in jhaana is mentioned in many suttas, it is included for those who have accumulations for jhaana. As we read in the sutta: Nina. #87708 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 1, 2008 8:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] What is a diffrence between samma-sati and samma-samadhi nilovg Hi Howard, Op 1-jul-2008, om 13:51 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Suppose there is an opportunity for daana, such as giving > something to someone in need, or anumodana daana, appreciating > another person's kusala, but instead of using this opportunity you > may be lazy or just forgetful to take action. Then there is no sati. > But if you use the opportunity for dana, it is not you, but sati that > is non-forgetful of kusala. > ============================== > And, so, is it sati that notes the current conditions as an > opportunity > for dana, recognizing some person in need? That sounds quite > conventional to > me. And does it occur all in an instant? As I see it, this requires > the > cooperation of many namas, including mindfulness, over an extended > period of time. -------- N: Many cittas arising and falling away in splitseconds. Kusala cittas can think of a person in need and an opportunity for dana, and each kusala citta is accompanied by sati, otherwise it could not be kusala. There is giving and helping with sati and metta which thinks of persons, why not? Nina. #87709 From: Dieter Möller Date: Tue Jul 1, 2008 8:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: response to hate mail etc - ... Credibility moellerdieter Hi James, you wrote: 'I appreciate your continued enthusiasm to continue this discussion, but I¡¦m afraid I¡¦m going to have to bow out. I¡¦m preparing to travel to America; I¡¦m preparing documents to renew licenses, visas, work permits, etc.; and I¡¦m preparing to change jobs. That is a lot of change at one time and so I don¡¦t have the energy to continue this discussion on such a controversial and vast subject.' D: that's ok, James James: If you have time, you can read the documents I referenced and we could continue this discussion at some future time. D: we may, but more substantiell agreement between eachother is needed in order to have a benefitial exchange.. all the best to you, with Metta Dieter #87710 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Tue Jul 1, 2008 8:16 am Subject: Buddhist texts 101: part 2 egberdina So, what can WE say about these reams and reams of Pali texts we have inherited? Well, we can say that for some the texts are a means to an end, and that for others the texts are an end in themselves. For some, all Pali texts are beautiful, but for those for whom the texts are a means to an end, there are degrees of relevance to be discerned in the texts. There are primary sources, which are the heart of the matter, and there are secondary or ternary sources (not that it ends there, but you get my drift), which are explanations, comments and proliferations of explanations, comments and proliferations etc etc of primary sources. For a lover of Pali, it's all good. For those with a sense of samvega, none of it is good. And therein lies the difference. Cheers Herman #87711 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jul 1, 2008 4:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] What is a diffrence between samma-sati and samma-samadhi upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 7/1/2008 11:01:28 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Op 1-jul-2008, om 13:51 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Suppose there is an opportunity for daana, such as giving > something to someone in need, or anumodana daana, appreciating > another person's kusala, but instead of using this opportunity you > may be lazy or just forgetful to take action. Then there is no sati. > But if you use the opportunity for dana, it is not you, but sati that > is non-forgetful of kusala. > ============================== > And, so, is it sati that notes the current conditions as an > opportunity > for dana, recognizing some person in need? That sounds quite > conventional to > me. And does it occur all in an instant? As I see it, this requires > the > cooperation of many namas, including mindfulness, over an extended > period of time. -------- N: Many cittas arising and falling away in splitseconds. Kusala cittas can think of a person in need and an opportunity for dana, and each kusala citta is accompanied by sati, otherwise it could not be kusala. There is giving and helping with sati and metta which thinks of persons, why not? Nina. ============================ Good! I'm pleased with your answer. Thank you. :-) With metta, Howard #87712 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 1, 2008 11:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddhist texts 101 - prerequisite: an historical perspective nilovg Hi Herman, Thank you for your post, it is very nice to hear about your family. How good they see their Dad as their best friend, then the relationship is excellent. So many children drift away from their parents. Lodewijk said that he wants to urge you not to neglect the organ. Once one has studied a piece it can come back easily. We find this after a long time. Accumulations! Nina. Op 1-jul-2008, om 15:41 heeft Herman Hofman het volgende geschreven: > Only very occasionally do I play these days, and when I do, I play > very badly. And that is to be expected when there is no practice :-) > > Yes, my children are grown up and gone. When they were about twelve > years old, I went from being Dad to best friend, and so it has stayed. > You never tell them when they are young, but at 12 years of age, they > know as much as you do :-) #87713 From: "szmicio" Date: Tue Jul 1, 2008 2:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] What is a diffrence between samma-sati and samma-samadhi szmicio > > > ============================ > Good! I'm pleased with your answer. Thank you. :-) > me too;> Now all is clear thx Lukas #87714 From: "Alex" Date: Tue Jul 1, 2008 2:47 pm Subject: Practice is what counts! Practice vs studying. truth_aerator Hello all, First issue of Studying & New Information. New information: Is 2+2=4 New information to anyone here? No. Why not? Because we already know it. Only if there is something unknown to us, only then we can learn what was once unknown to us so it would now become known to us. Generality vs specifics: Lets say that a person learns that All proper triangles have 3 sides. Afterwards a person reads a list that lists 100s of different triangles saying "this object has 3 sides and is a triangle". Does that sort of list adds anything new to understanding "all triangles have 3 sides" ? Absolutely not. Does this sort of list has any redeeming value? No. At best it is poverty of creative thought, a rigid and scholastic exercise as intellectually stimulating as reading a telephone book. If *Absolutely* everything is anatta, then does it add any new information to list 89/121 Cittas, 52 cetasikas, 28 rupas, Nibbana and say that "It too is Anatta" ? If Absolutely everything (except Nibbana) is anicca, then does it add any new information to list 89/121 Cittas, 52 cetasikas, 28 rupas and say that "It too is Anicca" ? Also if absolutely everything is to be let go off, then does it add any new information to list 89/121 Cittas, 52 cetasikas, 28 rupas, Nibbana and say that "It too has to be let go off" ? Also if every mundane state is to be treated in the same fashion (anicca-dukkha-anatta), then for deeper understanding of it, is it really helpful if these states are listed in a telephone book approach? The issue here isn't "is it correct?". The issue is: "is it useful or not?". There is a potential danger in doing this sort of analysis prior to magga-phala. The dangers are: a) Being stuck on concepts. b) Starting to value intellectual knowledge as an end in itself. c) Conceit (perhaps subconscious) of oneself "I know the real teaching, you don't! I do". d) If you think about states that do NOT currently apply to you, then you aren't being mindful of nama-rupas happening NOW. If you are trully mindful NOW and doing a proper Vipassana practice, then you don't need to read. Reading, in fact, is discouraged in intense Vipassana practices, just like eating (with eyes or the mouth) the menu is discouraged in the restaraunts. If there is a practice that denoursihes unwholesome states and nourishes all wholesome states (regardless if you can list them off the top of your head) then why not do it as much as possible? According to CMA during any kusala state, universal beutiful cetasikas + 7 universal cetasikas are present while all the unwholesome factors are absent. During any akusala state, universal unwholesome cetasikas + 7 universal cetasikas are present while all the wholesome factors are absent. Thus the practice of cultivating kusala states will automatically develop kusala states, regardless of your complete theoretical knowledge of them. Anapanasati is one such practice (mn118). Kayagata sati is another (mn119). Brahmavihara & asubha are also kusala practices. Yet we don't have "reading the books" anywhere in the 4 Nikayas as a practice. Talk is cheap, being able to perform is that which ultimate counts at the end of the day. When one properly does any of the above practices, actually over 40 of them, the proper cultivation is happening and proper denourishing is happening as well. No need to know the theory of that which is going to happen due to practice. Best wishes, Alex #87715 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Jul 1, 2008 4:32 pm Subject: Re: response to hate mail etc - ... Credibility kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Dieter Möller wrote: > > Hi Ken, > > . . . > > Ken : When satipatthana is understood in this way there are no discrepancies whatsoever between the Canon and its commentaries. > > D: good advise , Ken .. so why don't we altogether see the Buddha Dhamma through that kind of spectacles ..? ;-) . . . Hi Dieter, Thanks for the question. The choice of another kind of spectacles is a choice of conventional view in preference to paramattha view, isn't it? As for why that choice is made, I do have a theory: Every day on DSG people are presented with some straightforward logic. They are asked to understand the proposition that there is no self, there are only conditioned dhammas. Surprisingly, however, many [otherwise intelligent] people cannot follow that logic. They see the proposition of no self as a sign of annihilation-belief, or they see the proposition of dhammas existing as a sign of eternity (reification) belief. Only a very powerful force could prevent intelligent people from understanding straightforward logic. In this case I would say it was the force of wrong view. What would you say? Ken H #87716 From: "Raymond Hendrickson" Date: Tue Jul 1, 2008 6:12 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Practice is what counts! Practice vs studying. bitakarma Hi again Alex, This is a great topic, and while I agree with the general thrust of the post, there is one area I think where the Suttas say something a bit differently. Alex says: >>>>Yet we don't have "reading the books" anywhere in the 4 Nikayas as a practice. Talk is cheap, being able to perform is that which ultimate counts at the end of the day.>>>> Of course there is nothing in the Suttas about reading Dhamma books, there were none :) But there are many Suttas where the Buddha talks about giving hear to the Dhamma, learning the Dhamma, the value of discussing the Dhamma and going to those who are more knowledagble and asking questions and learning from them. I am currently going over AN, so here is a bit of an example, but there are many within the Suttas: AN 11:18 "And how does a monk fumigate? There is the case where a monk teaches others in detail the Dhamma as he has heard and mastered it. This is how a monk fumigates. "And how does a monk know fords? There is the case where a monk goes time & again to the monks who are learned, well-versed in the tradition, who have memorized the Dhamma, the Vinaya, and the Matikas. He questions them, presents them with his problems: 'How is this, venerable sir? What is the meaning of this?' These venerable ones reveal what has not been revealed to him, make plain what has not been made plain to him, resolve his doubts about the many teachings that might give rise to doubt. This is how a monk knows fords. "And how does a monk know what it is to have drunk? There is the case where a monk, when the Dhamma-Vinaya proclaimed by the Tathagata is being taught, gains knowledge of the meaning, gains knowledge of the Dhamma, gains joy connected with the Dhamma. This is how a monk knows what it is to have drunk." Alex also says: >>>There is a potential danger in doing this sort of analysis prior to magga-phala. The dangers are: a) Being stuck on concepts. b) Starting to value intellectual knowledge as an end in itself. c) Conceit (perhaps subconscious) of oneself "I know the real teaching, you don't! I do". >>>>> I certainly agree with this, the Buddha also warns in the Suttas not to learn the Dhamma just to show off or win debate points. I think this is something that is hard to get away from within message board formats, I think it is easier to discuss Dhamma questions in person, when you know those invoved because it is more condusive to working together to learn as oppose to debating to prove a point. But I will say that of the message boards I have seen, this one does the best job of using discussions for give in take in a learning environment. Of course not all threads are that way, but more than most :) Metta....Ray #87717 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Tue Jul 1, 2008 5:19 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: response to hate mail etc - ... Credibility egberdina Hi James, 2008/7/1 buddhatrue : > Hi Dieter, > > I appreciate your continued enthusiasm to continue this discussion, > but I'm afraid I'm going to have to bow out. I'm preparing to > travel to America; I'm preparing documents to renew licenses, visas, > work permits, etc.; and I'm preparing to change jobs. That is a lot > of change at one time and so I don't have the energy to continue > this discussion on such a controversial and vast subject. Here's wishing that all this change will transpire with great ease. All the best with it Herman #87718 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Tue Jul 1, 2008 5:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: response to hate mail etc - ... Credibility egberdina Hi KenH, 2008/7/1 kenhowardau : > Hi Dieter and James, > > The answer is, 'All of us who believe that the Buddha's teaching > (satipatthana) was to know a presently arisen paramattha dhamma.' > When satipatthana is understood in this way there are no > discrepancies whatsoever between the Canon and its commentaries. > I do not think that the Buddha taught folks to know presently arisen dhammas. He taught folks to not cling to anything, including the present moment. I accept there are teachings along the lines you suggest, but they can't be from the same dude who warned against stationing consciousness anywhere. Sn 4.4 No brahman says purity comes in connection with anything else. Unsmeared with regard to what's seen, heard, sensed, precepts or practices, merit or evil, not creating anything here, he's let go of what he had embraced. Cheers Herman #87719 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Tue Jul 1, 2008 5:36 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Paramattha one, multiple, or ultimately none? egberdina Hi Alex, 2008/6/26 Alex : > Neither verifiable nor falsifiable, the theory > of moments inhabits an epistemological no-man's-land, drifting like a > lost albatross over the trackless seas of paradox, seeking but never > finding a place to land. > ======================= Mystique of Abhidhamma======= What a wonderfully evocative description you quoted here. And I loved your line just now of restaurants discouraging eating the menu. Fantastic stuff :-) Cheers Herman #87720 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Tue Jul 1, 2008 6:47 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sundries: DN33 1.1-5 egberdina Hi Nina and all, 2008/6/22 Nina van Gorkom : > Hi Herman, > I like your post. Yes, fascinating. About backaches more later on, > from the co. The Buddha was a human and had also to experience result > of former kamma. > Nina. > I write the following as an exercise in textual criticism, which can be a fun way to spend some time. An interesting thing I found about the "intro" to DN33 is that it is found repeated a number of times in the Suttas. In MN53 it is the Sakyans at Kapilavatthu who have built the as yet undedicated hall. Everything proceeds as in DN33, but it is Ananda who gives the discourse when the Lord has a backache, In SN35:202 it is again the Sakyans at Kapilavatthu who have built the as yet undedicated hall, but this time the Lord does not have backache, and delivers the discourse himself. In DN16, the Lord is invited to attend the hall at Pataligama, already having been in use. The intro proceeds as in DN33 This same account is to be found in Ud 8:6 In DN2, the Lord and 1250 monks are staying at Rajagaha, in Jivaka Komarabhacca's mango grove. In this sutta, the Lord is again resting against the middle pillar, facing east, surrounded by the monks, but it is the King who surveys "the community of monks sitting in absolute silence, as calm as a lake". In reciting all these various accounts, it seems there is no intention to portray these as historical events, but it is just as they are introduced, these are stories that have been heard told. Cheers Herman #87721 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jul 1, 2008 9:19 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Stopping akusala sarahprocter... Hi James, A few brief comments on parts of the extract you quoted on hiri and ottappa: --- On Sat, 21/6/08, buddhatrue wrote: >>S: On hiri and ottappa (moral shame and scruples), J:> A bit more from "Abhidhamma in Daily Life" (Not the one by Nina but by by Buddhist monk ASHIN JANAKABHIVAMSA (Everything he writes suggests that hiri and ottappa are accompanied by unpleasant feeling): >3. Hiri (Moral Shame) and Ottappa (Moral Fear) >To feel ashamed to do evil is hiri; dread or fear to do evil is ottappa. Hiri is evident in those who value their honour and dignity. Ottappa is evident in those who respect their parents, teachers, friends and relatives. <....> >Four Cases Where Shame Should be Discarded >In the books mention is made of four cases where one should discard shame: (1) in trade and commerce; (2) in learning under a competent teacher; (3) in partaking of food, and (4) in making love. >These cases are mentioned to emphasise the point that one should be bold doing something of benefit. No commitment is made on whether they are moral or immoral. ..... S: I'd be interested to know in which "books" this is said. If it's the Tipitaka, I'd like to know the reference. ... >Other instances of hiri and ottappa are fear of courts and judges, reluctance to visit the lavatory while travelling, fear of dogs, fear of ghosts, fear of unknown places, fear of opposite sex, fear of elders and parents, fear of speaking in the presence of elders, etc. These are not genuine fear or shame. Indeed they are mere lack of nerve or confidence, a collection of unwholesome (akusala) states propelled by domanassa. .... S: In other words, there is no hiri or ottappa involved ata ll. They are merely unwholesome states with domanassa. The beginning of the paragraph is misleading. ..... >The Middle Way >The above explanation will clarify the fact that only genuine shame and fear are to be cultivated. There should neither be shame nor fear doing deeds that are not unwholesome. But this does not mean one must be reckless and bold in every case. Recklessness leads to disrespect for elders, anger, hatred and conceit. While moral courage and fearlessness are to be praised, recklessness and disrespect are to be blamed. .... S: Rather than talk so much about situations, I find it more helpful to consider the Middle Way as the development of right understanding now. At such moments when the path is followed, there is hiri and ottappa. Metta, Sarah ========== #87722 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jul 1, 2008 9:52 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Stopping akusala sarahprocter... Hi James, --- On Tue, 1/7/08, buddhatrue wrote: >>S: Back to hiri and ottappa - with access to books now! >James: Glad to have you back. Hope you had a nice trip. Sorry I got snappy in that last post but I didn't realize you didn't have access to your books. Actually, I didn't even know you were away. I can't keep up with all of the posts. ... S: Thanks, James. Understood. No problem! Actually, I had no books, no TV, no radio, no telephone, no computer access! Just the mountains, waterfalls, snow, wild flowers and good company:-). I read you're going away soon and changing job (presumably returning to Taiwan). Hope you also have a good trip and manage to send us the occasional e-card. ..... > >James: It's Moral Shame and Moral Fear, not "scruples". > ... > S: However you translate them, be sure to understand that they are 'beautiful' (sobhana) factors - no aversion or fear with dosa involved. James: Okay, now does "beautiful" really mean that there is no aversion or fear involved in any circumstance? ... S: Yes, not only no dosa, but no lobha or moha. Instead all 'beautiful' (sobhana)cittas are accompanied by sobhana mental factors, always including the ones I listed (alobha, adosa, amoha, hiri, ottappa, sati, saddha etc). ... J:> Do the texts specifically say that or is that your interpretation. For example, I find moral shame and fear of wrongdoing "beautiful". Even though the feeling is fearful, it is beautiful to me because it is a guardian of sila. The term "beautiful" is very subjective. .... S: When the cittas are sobhana, the hiri and ottappa accompanying them see the harm or fearfulness of akusala, there is the turning away from akusala, but there is no fearful feeling, no aversion, no dosa at such times. Unpleasant feeling may seem beautiful, just as attachment may seem beautiful, but this is a perversion of perception. .... >> S: CMA, ch II, Compendium of Mental Factors: > > "The Beautiful Factors - 25 9sobhanacetasika) > > #5 The Universal Beautiful Factors (sobhanasaaadhaara. na) - 19 > > 1) Saddhaa, 2)sati, 3) hiri, 4) ottappa.m, 5)alobho, 6)adoso, 7) tatramajjhattataa, 8) kaayapassaddhi, 9) cittapasaddhi, 10) kaayalahutaa, 11)cittalahutaa, 12)kaayamudutaa, 130cittamudutaa, 14) kaayakamma~n` nataa, 15) cittakamma~n~ nataa, 16) kaayapaagu~n~ nataa, 17)cittapaagu~ n~nataa, 18) kaayujjukataa, 19)cittujjukataa. ....." > > '....these nineteen mental factors are termed the universal beautiful factors.' > > >S: As the guide goes on to stress, these 19 cetasikas are "invariably pressent in all beautiful consciousness' . This means that they (inc. hiri and ottappa) accompany all kusala cittas and the kiriya cittas of the arahants which arise in place of kusala cittas. >James: First, thanks for the quote. Second, I have a question about your transference of kusala cittas and kiriya cittas. Are they the same? ... S: The characteristics of saddha, sati, panna, hiri, ottappa etc are the same. Of course, there are degrees. The panna of the arahant is of a higher degree and so are the other qualities. The reason that the arahant has kiriya rather than kusala cittas is because all defilements have been eradicated and no further kamma is produced, so the sobhana cittas are 'inoperative'. .... J:>Could it be said that what is true of one is true of the other. Really, I am out of my depth with this subject as I don't study this material, but I am finding it difficult to believe what you are saying. I don't see any direct evidence, yet. .... S: I think you're asking good questions. Cetasikas, such as hiri and ottappa, always have the same functions, but their degree and quality will vary according to the citta and other cetasikas they arise with. In all cases, sobhana cetasikas, such as these, can never arise with lobha, dosa or moha. So, they can never arise with unpleasant feeling. I think this is an important point which also relates to the discussions with Ven P. and others on the arising of panna and stages of insight. .... > >James: Well, if you post on it again then please have some textual > support from some sort of ancient text (and not Nina's books). > .... > S: Before you reply and tell me that the Abhidhammattha Sangaha (translated in CMA) doesn't qualify either because it's not from the Suttanta, let me remind you that recently you've been quoting from Wikipedia, John Bullitt and Ab. in Daily Life by > Ashin Janakabhivamsa: -) >James: LOL! Of course the Abhidhammattha Sangaha or the CMA qualifies for this discussion. .... S: Phew! Thanks for the good-humoured response:-) .... J:>I was wanting to know what the ancient texts say in this regard; that doesn't mean I have to agree with them, I just want to know what they say. Sarah, over the years in DSG I have found that I don't disagree so much with the ancient texts as much as I just disagree with the way some members interpret those texts. .... S: Fair enough. .... J:>And, what I quote from is limited because I don't have a whole library filled with these ancient texts. I only have what I can find on the Internet. But, even though I am at a disadvantage in this discussion, you can see I refuse to be intimidated. :-) .... S: :-) I wouldn't wish anyone to feel intimidated:-). In the end, it's the understanding that counts, not what is written in any text. .... > S: Perhaps down the line you or someone else will find it useful to appreciate that dosa (including the fear which arises with it) of any kind or degree is always useless and unwholesome in every aspect. hiri and ottappa can never arise with such unwholesome states. James: I'm still not so sure. If it is fear of wrongdoing I believe that is wholesome, beautiful, and very useful. ... S: Yes, I agree, as long as we both appreciate that such 'fear of wrong-doing' has nothing to do with what we usually consider as fear with unpleasant feeling and goose-bumps! It is the seeing of the fearfulness/harm of wrong-doing. .... >James: Had to cut that one short. Going traveling. But I had to respond to this post because I have been waiting a looooong time for a response. :-) .... S: And that was quicker than any of my other recent responses :-). No need to reply (just a 'yes, I agree' will do, lol:-). Have a good trip and break from our storms, heat, humidity and typhoons/cyclones! Metta, Sarah =========== #87723 From: "dsgmods" Date: Tue Jul 1, 2008 10:40 pm Subject: Re: Levels of upacara samadhi dsgmods Dear Derek (Nina, Ann, Alex & Scott), Good to see you here again! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "derekacameron" wrote: > > Somewhere, I came across a description of different levels of upacara > samadhi, but I can't find the source for it. I believe there were 6 > levels differentiated, each with 3 identifying characteristics, though > I'm not sure about that. It doesn't sound like it's from the Suttas, > and I've looked in the Visuddhimagga, but can't find it there. Does > this sound familiar to anyone? Can you tell me where it comes from? .... S: As you said (later), it might be from a source like the Vimittimagga, not strictly Theravada. I wondered if it also realted to either: a) prior to upacara samadhi, the appearing of the uggaha-nimitta (acquired image), then when the hindrances are futher suppressed and the citta calmer still, the appearing of the pa.tibhaaga-nimitta (counter-image), until pa~n~naa and calm more developed still and upacaara samaadhi (access concentration) arises. **** b) the texts refer to the preliminary work (parikamma) and basis for success for both jhana and stream entry. For example, Sammohavinodani 1498: "Moreover it should be understood that the prior stage is called the basis for success, and the attainment (pa.tilaabha) is called the success. This meaning should be illustrated by access or by insight. For the preliminary work for the first jhaana is called the basis for success, and the first jhaana is called the success. <....> "Insight for the path of Stream Entry is called the basis for success; the Stream Entry path is called success.......<....> **** c) in the process of absorption, e.g. CMA. ch 1V, 314 "....In this case (i.e. in the process of absorption, any one of the eight sense-sphere javanas accompanied by knowledge arises and ceases four times or three times, in due order as preparation(parikamma), access(upacaara), conformity(anuloma), and change-of-lineage(gotrabhuu). Immediately after they cease, in the fourth or fifth moment as the case may be, any one of the javanas among the twenty-six types of sublime or supramundane javanas enters upon the process of absorption in accordance with the way the mind is conveyed. After that, at the end of absorption, there is subsidence into the life-continuum." *** S: I'll be interested to hear if you trace your source anytime. Btw, are you still in Vancouver, still involved in the Buddhist temple I remember you once mentioning with regard to your Pali studies? Since you last posted, a few other Canadian members have joined and become active, including Alex and Scott from Edmonton and Ann, a very old friend of ours, living in Vancouver too. Metta, Sarah p.s Ann, hope your shoulder injury is recovering. Any news of your mini-series? ============= #87724 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jul 1, 2008 11:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Levels of upacara samadhi sarahprocter... All, --- On Wed, 2/7/08, dsgmods wrote: ..... S: That was a mistake - it was meant to be from this account. Wrong hat. Sarah #87725 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 2, 2008 2:07 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Sundries: DN33 1.1-5 nilovg Hi Herman, Sorry, I am unable to make a historical study, though fascinating in itself. I am no good at historical studies, my weak point. I hope the mods of this corner, Connie or Scott, will answer if they have time. I have such a lack of time, being in contact with the printer Alan Weller about my Rupas. He passed his exam and has some time now. Also very much involved with Pali Visuddhimagga and the Sangitisutta, the Ones. I get up at about 5.30 or 5.15, to have more time, really difficult. Nina. Op 2-jul-2008, om 3:47 heeft Herman Hofman het volgende geschreven: > An interesting thing I found about the "intro" to DN33 is that it is > found repeated a number of times in the Suttas. > > In MN53 it is the Sakyans at Kapilavatthu who have built the as yet > undedicated hall. Everything proceeds as in DN33, but it is Ananda who > gives the discourse when the Lord has a backache, #87726 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Jul 2, 2008 3:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Stopping akusala buddhatrue Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > .... > S: Rather than talk so much about situations, I find it more helpful to consider the Middle Way as the development of right understanding now. At such moments when the path is followed, there is hiri and ottappa. James: That venerable wrote about situations because his book is called "Abhidhamma in Daily Life"...it is about daily life, not just theories and ideas. I know that you much prefer theoretical understanding, but I much prefer practical understanding. In that vein, I read your other post and, while you don't quote any of the ancient texts, you state that because hiri and ottappa are "beautiful cetasikas" they cannot be accompanied with shame or fear. So, moral shame is not shameful and moral fear is not fearful. What are they? According to you, they are absolutely nothing. They are just pie-in-the-sky, goody goody feelings which arise whenever there are wholesome cittas. Well, either you or both you and the texts are mistaken. I cannot believe that moral shame isn't shameful and moral fear isn't fearful. I can't help but remember the post Ven. P posted to this group about the monk who is a student of KS. That monk also doesn't believe in the shame and fear of hiri and ottappa, so he quite easily kills insects everyday and justifies his actions. And why shouldn't he? According to this approach, if you feel equanimity, calm, or peace when you commit acts of akusala, then they are okay. As the insect killing monk said, it all depends on your mental state! Well, that is complete nonsense; but that is what all of this theoretical hogwash gets you! Sorry, Sarah, I find this position very dangerous and very much against what the Buddha taught. You can go ahead and look for hiri and ottappa "in the present moment", but I will look to hiri and ottappa as guardians of sila. Metta, James #87727 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Jul 2, 2008 5:28 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Sundries: DN33 1.1-5 scottduncan2 Dear Nina, Herman, Regarding: N: "Sorry, I am unable to make a historical study, though fascinating in itself. I am no good at historical studies, my weak point. I hope the mods of this corner, Connie or Scott, will answer if they have time..." H: "An interesting thing I found about the 'intro' to DN33 is that it is found repeated a number of times in the Suttas..." Scott: Cool. Thanks, Herman. Sincerely, Scott. #87728 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jul 2, 2008 5:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Stopping akusala sarahprocter... Hi James, --- On Wed, 2/7/08, buddhatrue wrote: J:>Sorry, Sarah, I find this position very dangerous and very much against what the Buddha taught. You can go ahead and look for hiri and ottappa "in the present moment", but I will look to hiri and ottappa as guardians of sila. .... S: The main point of our discussion was whether these "guardians of sila" can arise with aversion and unpleasant feeling. You think they do. This is what I find dangerous. It is when one doesn't see the harm of dosa (and even justifies it and thinks it is accompanied by such "guardians") that the view will be a condition for more and more lapses of sila through body, speech or mind, such as the example you gave of killing. For those who study the texts even a little(whether by listening to K.Sujin or by any other means) will learn to appreciate more and more the value of wholesome states and deeds and see more and more the danger in all kinds of unwholesome states and deeds, especially those kinds of gross akusala as in the breaking of the precepts, such as killing. So now, is there any aversion? If so, there is no hiri and ottappa, no 'guarding' of any wholesome kind. Thanks again for your considerations, James. As we're both busy at this time, I'll leave this thread here, rather than add any further "pie-in-the sky, goody goody feelings":-). Metta, Sarah ============ #87729 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jul 2, 2008 6:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddhist texts 101: part 2 sarahprocter... Hi Herman, --- On Tue, 1/7/08, Herman Hofman wrote: H:>So, what can WE say about these reams and reams of Pali texts we have inherited? .... S: We'll say/not say anything there are conditions to say/not say. At such times, such saying/silence can be with any idea of 'WE' existing or there can be the right understanding that the thinking and speech are just more conditioned dhammas which are as ephermeral as all others. ........ H:>Well, we can say that for some the texts are a means to an end, and that for others the texts are an end in themselves. .... S: Yes, usually what we all like to say/think is that for the others the texts "are an end in themselves", but for we, "the wise", they are "a means to an end". A great opportunity to understand the common conceit, arrogance and attachment at such times along with the ignorance - thinking that there really can be a judging/knowing of another's cittas when there's not even any knowing of the cittas which are readily apparent when there is such thinking. ... >For those with a sense of samvega, none of it is good. And therein lies the difference. ... S: I agree that none of its good and while times is wasted in comparisons and long stories about the others' useless studies, there certainly is no samvega, which of course never belongs to anyone. Regardless of whether you ever take up the organ again or not, there is seeing, there is hearing, there is thinking, there is attachment and many other common realities which can be directly known at the present moment. Samvega always comes back to now - never ME, WE and the OTHERS:-). Metta, Sarah ========= #87730 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Jul 2, 2008 6:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] [ dsg] Re: Kamma, was Death. jonoabb Hi Tep Tep wrote: > Dear Jon (Herman), - > > Your comment, as simple as it may sound, can lead to a long > discussion. :-) > Yes, I'm aware of that ;-)) >> Jon: My only comment would be that the description contained in the >> Panna Sutta does not tell us *everything* there is to know about panna, >> and it may be helpful to supplement this information with information >> found in other parts of the texts. >> > > T: Of course it is always helpful to include what the Buddha said about > pa~n~naa in other suttas, although it is not necessary in my opinion. > Thus I am curious as to what information this Pa~n~naa Sutta tells you, > and what information about pa~n~naa is missing. Imo, the sutta tells > everything about pa~n~naa development, which the Buddha approved, in a > learner(sekha). > It's not a question of any information about panna being "missing". I was referring, for example, to the fact that panna is a mental factor that arises by conditions and has the characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta. If we don't have this background information then it's easy to misread suttas such as the Panna Sutta as prescribing a course of action to be followed. Jon #87731 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Jul 2, 2008 6:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: [ dsg] Re: Kamma, was Death. jonoabb Hi Herman Herman Hofman wrote: > Hi Jon, > > 2008/6/27 jonoabb : > >> Hi Herman >> >> I feel we're in danger of losing sight of the point under discussion. >> Come to think of it, what was the point? Something to do with kamma >> and your statement that only conditions internal to a stream of >> consciousness can influence that stream. Perhaps you could re-state >> the point so that we can approach it afresh. >> > > Perhaps I remember incorrectly, but I think my initial point was that > kamma and anatta are irreconcilable. If it is no problem for you, I > would just as soon leave our discussion here. I think we have every > right to congratulate ourselves and each other on an exemplary > discussion. > Happy to join in the mutual congratulations, and to leave the discussion there for the time being ;-)) > But be warned :-), if ever you should suggest that action > is a consequence of conditions, I will ask you to substantiate that. > I don't think I'm likely to be suggesting that action is a consequence of conditions (whatever that might mean). Of course, intention (the mental factor) is said to be a conditioned dhamma, but that is by no means the same as saying that action is a consequence of conditions. When talking about deeds/action in the context of kamma, the dhamma in question is cetana/intention (the mental factor). Jon #87732 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jul 2, 2008 6:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Eternality/Non, Infinite/Finite of world sarahprocter... Dear Tep (& all), I like the quotes and comments you gave here. --- On Mon, 30/6/08, Tep wrote: T:> 1). The terms 'finiteness, empty/non-empty' you are using here seem to be restricted to physical properties. But, in the Patisambhidamagga, Treatise on Views, there are 10 views that assume finiteness. Thus "finiteness" in the Patism is very broad; I do not know yet what it truly means. .... S: Is the "finiteness" (and eternity) not pointing to the idea of permanence here? .... T:> Patism, ii, 322. In what 50 aspects is there misinterpretation through views assuming [by asserting or denying] finiteness? In how many aspects is there misinterpretation through the view assuming finiteness (1) thus 'The world is eternal'? (2) thus 'The world is not eternal'? (3) thus 'The world has an end [in space]'? (4) thus 'The world has no end [in space]'? (5) thus 'The soul and the body are the same'? (6) thus 'The soul is one, and the body is another'? (7) thus 'A Perfect One is after death'? (8) thus 'A Perfect One is not after death'? (9) thus 'A Perfect One both is and is not after death'? (10) thus 'A Perfect One neither is nor is not after death'? There is misinterpretation through the view assuming finiteness in five aspects in [each of the 10 instances just mentioned]. .... S: In other words, as I understand, when there is an idea of atta, there is the idea of persons and things which last, there's no understanding of impermanent dhammas. .... ------------ -------- T:> 2. Seeing the worlds or cosmos by a person who has a supernormal power is not the same as "seeing" by the physical eyes of ordinary people. This kind of "seeing" by psychic power and by 'Divine Eye' is not imaginative at all (if you believe that the suttas do not lie). >"He exercises influence with his body even as far as the Brahma worlds. This is called the miracle of psychic power." [AN 3.60]. >Once the Venerable Anuruddha went to see the Venerable Sariputta. When they had exchanged courteous greetings he sat down and said to the Venerable Sariputta: "Friend Sariputta, with the divine eye that is purified, transcending human ken, I can see the thousandfold world- system. Firm is my energy, unremitting; my mindfulness is alert and unconfused; the body is tranquil and unperturbed; my mind is concentrated and one-pointed. And yet my mind is not freed from cankers, not freed from clinging." [Tika-Nipata No. 128] .... S: A very good quote. All of it useless if there is no eradication (or moving towards eradication) of clinging. Metta, Sarah ======== #87733 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Jul 2, 2008 6:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Views re self & the world DN2 jonoabb Hi Herman > Sorry, Jon, I don't have any Buddhist texts as hardcopy. I only have > access to whatever is on the Internet, and that is only the biggest > library in the known universe :-) The biggest, but not necessarily the best ;-)) I have checked the BB translation of MN 100 ('Sangaarava Sutta'). His translation of the explanation of the 3 comparisons that occurred to the (then) Bodhisatta is as follows: 1. Recluses and brahmins who do not live bodily withdrawn from sensual pleasures, and whose sensual desire, etc, has not been fully abandoned and suppressed internally. 2. Recluses and brahmins who live bodily withdrawn from sensual pleasures, but whose sensual desire, etc, has not been fully abandoned and suppressed internally. 3. Recluses and brahmins who live bodily withdrawn from sensual pleasures, and whose sensual desire, etc, has been fully abandoned and suppressed internally. Only the last are said to be capable of enlightenment. One of BB's notes to the passage seems to say that the passage shows the Bodhisatta coming to the conclusion that self-mortification practices are useless for the attainment of enlightenment. Jon #87734 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Jul 2, 2008 6:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Anatta a strategy. jonoabb Hi TG >> D: between ..there is another point I have difficulties in >> understanding: it is said that all dhammas are impermanent, isn't >> it ? Hence how can nibbana be classified under dhammas? >> > All conditioned dhammas are described as being impermanent, dukkha > and not-self. But there is one unconditioned dhamma, nibbana, and > that dhamma is described as being dukkha and not-self (but not as > being impermanent). > > > Hi All concerned. > > Just to correct the above. Nibbana is NOT described as being "dukkha." It IS considered as included as being described as "nonself." Nonself simply means there is no-self. It does not imply or entail that this means there is something else in regards to it. > Thanks for coming in to correct this error in my post. Good to hear from you again! > The Buddha has also said that Nibbana is the ending of feeling, perception and consciousness...and that nothing else arises in its place. > > TG > > PS, I'm at a public library computer, away from home, and may not be able to respond to follow-ups. (Lucky for you!) > No disagreement from me, so nothing to respond to! Jon > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Alex > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 10:30 am > Subject: [dsg] Anatta a strategy. > > > > > > > Hi Jon, Dieter and all, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" > wrote: > >> Hi Dieter (and Howard) >> >> ****************** >> >>> D: between ..there is another point I have difficulties in >>> >> understanding: it is said that all dhammas are impermanent, isn't >> > it ? Hence how can nibbana be classified under dhammas?? > >> ****************** >> > All conditioned dhammas are described as being impermanent, dukkha > and not-self. But there is one unconditioned dhamma, nibbana, and > that dhamma is described as being dukkha and not-self (but not as > being impermanent). > > > The Nibbana being a Dhamma is a bit controversial: > In some suttas the Buddha has said that > > ================================================= > ...there are many other discourses in the Canon specifically stating > that nibbana lies beyond the range of the six senses and their > objects. Sn 5.6, for instance, indicates that a person who has > attained nibbana has gone beyond all phenomena (sabbe dhamma), and > therefore cannot be described. MN 49 discusses a "consciousness > without feature" (viññanam anidassanam) that does not partake of > the "Allness of the All." Furthermore, the following discourse (SN > 35.24) says that the "All" is to be abandoned. At no point does the > Canon say that nibbana is to be abandoned. Nibbana follows on > cessation (nirodha), which is to be realized. Once nibbana is > realized, there are no further tasks to be done. > > Thus it seems more this discourse's discussion of "All" is meant to > limit the use of the word "all" throughout the Buddha's teachings to > the six sense spheres and their objects. As the following discourse > shows, this would also include the consciousness, contact, and > feelings connected with the sense spheres and their objects. Nibbana > would lie outside of the word, "all." This would fit in with another > point made several times in the Canon: that dispassion is the highest > of all dhammas (Iti 90), while the arahant has gone beyond even > dispassion (Sn 4.6; Sn 4.10). > > This raises the question, if the word "all" does not include nibbana, > does that mean that one may infer from the statement, "all phenomena > are not-self" that nibbana is self? The answer is no. As AN 4.174 > states, to even ask if there is anything remaining or not remaining > (or both, or neither) after the cessation of the six sense spheres is > to differentiate what is by nature undifferentiated (or to complicate > the uncomplicated — see the Introduction to MN 18). The range of > differentiation goes only as far as the "All." Perceptions of self or > not-self, which would count as differentiation, would not apply > beyond the "All." When the cessation of the "All" is experienced, all > differentiation is allayed. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.023.than.html > ==================================================== > > Thus it is far to simplistic to say that Buddha has said that Nibbana > is not-self. > > If samsara is absence of Self, then Nibbana is absence of not self ( > 5 khandas). > > Does absence of not-self implies a self? > > Logically: not (not-x) = x (not not-Self = Self) > > The suttas have said that we should not speculate as this is outside > of our range. AN 4.174 > > So I guess the sad fact is that one needs to become an Arahant > first... > > ========================== > Monks, I will teach you the All. Listen & pay close attention. I will > speak." > > "As you say, lord," the monks responded. > > The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & > sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, > intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. 1 Anyone who would > say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned > on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be > unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? > Because it lies beyond range." > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.023.than.html > ==== > The above doesn't go against the Advaita Vedanta atman teaching. > > I wonder what "it" that lies beyond range? > > Anattalakkhana CAN be reinterpreted as affirmation of this > Upanishadic Atman (which lies outside of describable range and can > only be semi-described through Upanishadic negative statements not- > this, which Buddha probably was well familiar with.) > > So I have possible disagreement with Ven. TB regarding Anatta. > > Maybe there IS Atta, which is indescribable and must be experienced > though Anatta-strategy (not unfamiliar to Upanishads and Hindu > beliefs). > > Best wishes, > > Alex > > #87735 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Jul 2, 2008 6:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: How to handle suttas, path to awakening, mere speculations jonoabb Hi Herman > Why would anyone study texts? Simply because they have been spoken? > Surely they were spoken for a reason, to a specific audience. > Of course when the Buddha spoke it was to someone and it was for that person's/those persons' benefit. I agree that it's relevant to take account of these matters (i.e., the audience and the occasion) in considering the implications of any given sutta. > To study > a text as an end in itself is to use something for a purpose for which > it wasn't intended. The purpose of studying the texts is to come to a better understanding of the way things truly are and of the development of the path. > I think it is a safe bet that if you study a text > academically , it never applied to you to start with. > I agree that academic study of the texts is not of any real benefit. Jon #87736 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Jul 2, 2008 7:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana Meditation. Again. jonoabb Hi Alex > For Anagami stage Jhana is 100% required. No Jhana = no possibility > for Anag and higher. > Thanks for clarifying your position on this. >>> It does appear that *at least* a momentary Jhana (up to 4th or >>> higher) happens right before one becomes a stream-enterer. >>> >> Interesting. Can you give a sutta/text reference for this, please? >> > I did that before. I post it again, ... > > See things regarding stream entry: > > ...Then when he saw that Suppabuddha the leper's mind was ready, > malleable, free from hindrances, elated, & bright" > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.5.03.than.html > > The above is quick description of Jhana, perhaps up to 4th. The passage you have quoted is part of the so-called "gradual instruction", leading up to an instruction on the 4 Noble Truths. The gradual instruction was given by the Buddha to those whom he saw as being ready to receive the teachings and attain enlightenment. (See Nyanatiloka's Buddhist Dictionary, entry for "aanupubbii-kathaa") As far as I know, the words you have quoted are not generally regarded as signifying attainment of the jhanas. What makes you think they do? And even if they did, this would not indicate a general rule that stream-entry is always preceded by jhana. > Furthermore Samadhi isn't only a part of N8P, it is part of 7 factors > of Awakening and a counterbalance to 5 Hindrances. > Yes, but 'samadhi' does not necessarily mean 'jhana'. >>> Lets not forget the difference between attaining and mastering >>> Jhana. >>> >>> A sotapanna CAN reach Jhana, but the mastery of Jhana is required >>> for Anag and Arh levels. >>> >> Can you give a sutta/text reference for this, please? >> > > "In Anguttara Nikaya Suttas 3.85 & 9.12, the Buddha said that > Sotapanna and Sakadagamin (first and second stage Ariyas) have > Perfect Sila (morality). The third stage Anagamin has Perfect Sila > and Perfect Samadhi (concentration). The fourth stage Arahant has > Perfect Sila, Perfect Samadhi and Perfect Panna (wisdom). > > These 2 Suttas indicate that the attainment of the Anagamin and the > Arahant stages must have Perfect Concentraion, which is always > defined as the 4 jhanas or one-pointedness of mind by the Buddha in > the Suttas (e.g. Samyutta Nikaya Suttas 45.1.8 & 45.3.8). > I think you are confusing "perfect(ed) concentration" with samma-samadhi as a factor of the NEP. It is the latter that is usually defined in terms of the 4 jhanas (there is at least 1 sutta in which it is defined otherwise). > This is why > most Anagamins are reborn in the 4th jhana plane. Some, however, are > reborn in the arupa jhana plane (Anguttara Nikaya Sutta 4.172), which > shows that Anagamins generally have the 4 jhanas or more, as do all > Arahants. > http://zencomp.com/greatwisdom/ebud/ebdha163.htm > This is not something stated in the texts, but is mere supposition ;-)) >> But suttas describing how insight with jhana citta as basis may lead >> to the attainment of insight (and there are many, many such suttas) >> cannot be taking as establishing that jhana is *necessary* for the >> attainment of enlightenment. >> > > Jhana removes hindrances, brightens the mind, etc so that insight can > wipe the floor with ignorance. Trying to deal with ignorance hands on > is like trying to remove the mountain with a cotton ball. As I said before, there are plenty of suttas in which the attainment of enlightenment is preceded by jhana. But we can't draw any general rule about the need for jhana from that, because there are also many suttas where there is just no mention of jhana. I don't think there's any text that says that jhana is necessary in order to prepare the mind for the development of insight. >> The reason there were many such suttas is that there were many >> disciples at that time who were potentially capable of that very >> high attainment. >> >> On the other hand, there are also many, many suttas describing the >> development of insight and attainment of enlightenment that do not >> mention jhana as part of that development or attainment. > > Please don't mention the Susima sutta which is probably what you have > in mind. > No, I had in mind suttas describing the attainment of insight without any apparent jhana involved. You quoted a number of them yourself in a recent post (including Anathapindika, Visakhaa). Are you familiar with MN 56 (Upaali Suttta)? > 1) It doesn't refute Jhana, it refutes ARUPA + superpower attainments > > 2) You've read that sutta and many others, and are you an Arahant? A > sotapanna? If not, then YOU may need Jhana in this lifetimes. > > Obviously the cases of hearing and becoming an Arahant do not work > today. > I agree with your last comment. However, that has no bearing on the question we are discussing. >> The Anagami has perfected samadhi because he has eradicated all >> attachment to sense-door objects, which means that experiences >> through the sense-doors are no longer a condition for the arising of >> akusala. >> > > Thus Anag has NO problem entering 1st Jhana at will and remaining > there (barring any strong kammic hindrance, and even then attainment > of Jhana has to happen. Remember that Ariyas are triple rooted, thus > Jhana is possible.) > Again, I think you're confusing perfected samadhi (BB trans: 'fully accomplished samadhi') with Samma-Samadhi of the NEP. >> How does this establish jhana as a *prerequisite* for >> insight/enlightenment. >> > > As I've said above. Jhana strengthens the mind, it removes the > hindrances, it clears the way for Insight. > We are talking about jhana as a *prerequisite* for Anagami attainment and/or insight development/enlightenment. Jon #87737 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Wed Jul 2, 2008 7:15 am Subject: Re: Sundries sarahprocter... Dear Ann, Scott (Herman, Nina & Lodewijk), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "glenjohnann" wrote: > What a lovely and useful post. I especially like your references to > patience and to how we all live thinking of people and things most of > the time. With understanding there is more likelihood that moments > of thinking in terms of Dhammas will arise, albeit they are still > thinking. .... S: I wrote it while 'on the run', so to speak, so I'm glad you found it helpful.Thanks for your kind comments. As you say/stess again, "we all live thinking of people and things most of the time". I think it (any development of understanding of dhammas) is a very natural process. When I was reading the comments about the organ-playing, the textual studies and so on, I thought of my mother's comments to me about how I used to paint and read novels a lot when I was young. It's not that I see anything wrong with either at all, it's just that I don't have sufficient interest in them, whereas I do when it comes to reading/reflecting on/listening to the Dhamma. (I also still enjoy reading newspapers and many, many other activities I hasten to add)! Changing accumulations from moment to moment, of course. Perhaps I'll take up painting again in old age and Herman will take up the organ again, who knows? Just conditions. A lot depends on the akusala and far-less-common-kusala chanda (interest) at the time. Scott, when I wrote, I had meant to ask you for any further reflections you had on the Sundries topic. I found it very helpful to consider the good points you'd raised, thank you. Great to see the Sangiti corner in full swing too. I wonder if you've seen a couple of old posts on the sutta which Nina wrote before under 'Sangiti' in U.P. You (or Connie or Nina) may like to incorporate them at the relevant stage. Metta, Sarah ========= #87738 From: "Alex" Date: Wed Jul 2, 2008 7:23 am Subject: Re: Levels of upacara samadhi truth_aerator Hi Sarah and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "dsgmods" wrote: > > Dear Derek (Nina, Ann, Alex & Scott), > > a) prior to upacara samadhi, the appearing of the uggaha-nimitta > (acquired image), then when the hindrances are futher suppressed and > the citta calmer still, the appearing of the pa.tibhaaga-nimitta > (counter-image), until pa~n~naa and calm more developed still and > upacaara samaadhi (access concentration) arises. > **** These things are foreign to the suttas or at best play very small role. While the importance of satipatthana within the N8P is undisputed, one has to have creative reinterpretation of vague and rate pali lines to suggest any sort of ESP visual signs prior to 1st Jhana. > *** > S: > Since you last posted, a few other Canadian members have joined and > become active, including Alex and Scott from Edmonton and Ann, a >very Correction. I live few hours from Edmonton. Best wishes, Alex #87739 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jul 2, 2008 7:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Levels of upacara samadhi sarahprocter... Hi Alex, --- On Wed, 2/7/08, Alex wrote: > a) prior to upacara samadhi, the appearing of the uggaha-nimitta > (acquired image), then when the hindrances are futher suppressed and > the citta calmer still, the appearing of the pa.tibhaaga- nimitta > (counter-image) , until pa~n~naa and calm more developed still and > upacaara samaadhi (access concentration) arises. > **** ..... A:> These things are foreign to the suttas .... ... S: Derek's question (and reference request)which I was looking at, was not restricted to the suttas. If you ask me what something means in CMA and I give your answer above, it won't really help you, will it? While we're at it, it's true that a lot more detail is given in the Abhidhamma and commentaries. Anyone can accept it or not as they please:-) .... >S: Since you last posted, a few other Canadian members have joined and > become active, including Alex and Scott from Edmonton and Ann, a >very A:Correction. I live few hours from Edmonton. ... S: Thank you, that part was addressed to you. I like your eye for all details:-). I nearly put you down as coming from Calgary - fortunately, I only made a 'few hours' mistake, lol. Btw, while we're on the details, apart from your very active dhamma studies, meditation practice and retreats, can I ask if you work or study? (No need to reply if you prefer not to). Thanks for all your other threads. Metta, Sarah ======== #87740 From: "Alex" Date: Wed Jul 2, 2008 8:28 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana Meditation. Again. truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Hi Alex > > The passage you have quoted is part of the so-called "gradual > instruction", leading up to an instruction on the 4 Noble Truths. >The gradual instruction was given by the Buddha to those whom he saw >as being ready to receive the teachings and attain enlightenment.See >Nyanatiloka's Buddhist Dictionary, entry for "aanupubbii-kathaa") > As far as I know, the words you have quoted are not generally >regarded as signifying attainment of the jhanas. What makes you >think they do? > The description appears to me to be a very concise definition of Jhana. Furthermore it fits with the overal practice. > And even if they did, this would not indicate a general rule that > stream-entry is always preceded by jhana. > Ok, if you can reach Stream without Jhana, then all the power to you. For the rest of us, there is Jhana. > > I think you are confusing "perfect(ed) concentration" with samma- >samadhi as a factor of the NEP. It is the latter that is usually >defined in terms of the 4 jhanas (there is at least 1 sutta in which >it is defined otherwise). NEP leads to the goal and it should be followed rather than vague and rare references that seem to contradict it. > > > This is why > > most Anagamins are reborn in the 4th jhana plane. Some, however, are > > reborn in the arupa jhana plane (Anguttara Nikaya Sutta 4.172), which > > shows that Anagamins generally have the 4 jhanas or more, as do all > > Arahants. > > http://zencomp.com/greatwisdom/ebud/ebdha163.htm > > > > This is not something stated in the texts, but is mere supposition ;-)) > If you master 4th Jhana and aren't Arahat yet, then you would most likely be reborn in 4th Jhana Rupa Loka. > > As I said before, there are plenty of suttas in which the >attainment of enlightenment is preceded by jhana. But we can't draw > any general rule about the need for jhana from that, because there > are also many suttas where there is just no mention of jhana. > Do you believe that KS is more knowledgeble than the Buddha? Regarding those suttas where jhana doesn't seem to be mentioned it may be simply due to the concise nature of that sutta. Often the center point of the discussion in the suttas is of the Buddha rather than induvidial monks. Many details are often left out due to space considerations. The focus is often on Buddha teaching. Actually whenever Insight is mentioned, Jhana lurks around. For example I have a suspicion that sankhara-uppekha-nana is very close to 4th Jhana. Certainly a person who reaches that nana can easy and with little training enter Jhana - and I recommend that strongly. After all, the 4th Jhana is characterized by super sati & upekkha. > I don't think there's any text that says that jhana is necessary in > order to prepare the mind for the development of insight. > It may not be necessery, but it certainly IS helpful. > >> The reason there were many such suttas is that there were many > >> disciples at that time who were potentially capable of that very > >> high attainment. > >> > >> On the other hand, there are also many, many suttas describing the > >> development of insight and attainment of enlightenment that do not > >> mention jhana as part of that development or attainment. > > Jhana is mentioned whenever NEP is mentioned. > > No, I had in mind suttas describing the attainment of insight >without any apparent jhana involved. You quoted a number of them >yourself in a recent post (including Anathapindika, Visakhaa). >>> We don't know a) Their previous lifes b) If they did reach Jhana but it was not reported in the suttas. >Are you familiar with > MN 56 (Upaali Suttta)? > Can you please tell me exactly which part of it you want to discuss? I briefly looked over it right now. It has a gradual instruction leading to openining of the Dhamma eye. See my previous post in this thread. The Buddha teaching Upali face to face(something we don't have today) is very concise summary/table of themes the Buddha has taught. What took few sentences to write could have last for quite some time, maybe hours. It is not unlikely that Buddha a) Said EXACTLY what Upali needed to hear b) Did guided meditation exactly in the way Upali needed. As a Jain follower, Upali could have meditated. So Upali was prepared. Drawings of Mahavira (in full lotus) are almost indistinguishable from Buddha's drawings. Jain teaching are VERY close to Buddhism, at least some aspects of it. Buddha himself may have been a Jain. Other than any phys action being kamma, jiva belief, and certain technical differences in meditation, Jainism is VERY close to Buddhism. It would be almost impossible for a non-expert to differentiate the two. In fact the two traditions are so similiar (to non-experts) that some have suggested that Buddha & Mahavira were one and the same person. The center of Buddhist suttas is usually the Buddha teaching. Not some pujjhana meditating in the woods. When a pujjhana after long meditation came to the Buddha, Buddha gave discource causing the Dhamma eye to arise. The Buddha giving discourse would be mentioned in the sutta, leaving us with hope that "jhana" and intense preparation isn't needed. Best wishes, Alex #87741 From: "Alex" Date: Wed Jul 2, 2008 8:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Practice is what counts! Practice vs studying. truth_aerator Hi Raymond, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Raymond Hendrickson" wrote: > > > > Hi again Alex, > But there are many Suttas where the Buddha talks about > giving hear to the Dhamma, learning the Dhamma, the value of discussing the > Dhamma and going to those who are more knowledagble and asking questions > and learning from them. I am currently going over AN, so here is a bit of > an example, but there are many within the Suttas: > Of course without hearing the Dhamma you can't become an Ariya (unless you are practicing for Buddhahood). But lets not forget that study doesnt have to be 5,000 or so pages of suttas (As I've did). + 5000 more of Abh. I am sure that everything that one who can become an Ariya needs is very concise summary <100 pages. Learning & studying in an agricultural & pre-literal India meant quite a bit different from todays literate "information age". Best wishes, Alex #87742 From: "connie" Date: Wed Jul 2, 2008 8:54 am Subject: Sundries: DN33 1.1-5 nichiconn Dear Friends, H: In reciting all these various accounts, it seems there is no intention to portray these as historical events, but it is just as they are introduced, these are stories that have been heard told. c: First, from Ud-a: << "Speaking thus, viz. Eva.m me suta.m, Gotamas' saavaka destroys lack of faith, increases faith in the Teaching". >>; then, because you (Herman) mentioned samvega recently (and it's way shorter than the whole commentary to the first Udaana!), here's what Bhikkhu Bodhi's "Net" says about "On one occasion the Exalted One": << By this phrase, implying the non-existence of the Exalted One (at the time it was recited), the venerable Aananda shows the parinibbaana of the form-body (ruupakaaya) of the Buddha. Thence he inspires a sense of spiritual urgency (samvega) in people intoxicated with the vanity of life, and arouses in them a desire to hear the true Dhamma, as though telling them: "Even the Exalted One, the Teacher of the ariyan Dhamma, the Bearer of the Ten Powers, whose body was like a mass of diamonds, has passed away. Who then can hope to live forever?" Reciting the word 'thus', he shows that the sutta possesses a teaching; by the words 'have I heard', that it possesses a listener; by the words 'on one occasion', that it possesses a specific time; and by the words 'the Exalted One', that it possesses a teacher. >> Speaking for myself: You know, "whether or not a buddha arises..." Summary and Expo: <> .. it's a matter of cultural consideration, perhaps, how we read / it sits with us - still immersed in the herd (mentality) or in "the heard". How accurate is the portrayal in either case? peace, connie #87743 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jul 2, 2008 5:01 am Subject: A Metta Meditation from the Judaic Tradition upasaka_howard Hi, all - I came across the following, which is recited by observant Jews in the evening along with the recitation of the central prayer of Judaism that affirms divine oneness (or "only-ness"). It appeals to me a lot, and it is so close to certain Buddhist meditations and formulations, except for the "sinned" terminology, that I decided to pass it on to you: I forgive everyone who has angered, provoked, or sinned against me, both physically or emotionally, intentionally or unintentionally, whether by word, action or thought; and may no person come to any suffering because of me. With metta, Howard #87744 From: Dieter Möller Date: Wed Jul 2, 2008 10:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: response to hate mail etc - ... Credibility moellerdieter Hi Ken (and others interested), you wrote: (D: good advise , Ken .. so why don't we altogether see the Buddha Dhamma through that kind of spectacles ..? ;-) Thanks for the question. D: unexpected response ..but you are wellcome ;-) ok, let me repeat : Ken: 'All of us who believe that the Buddha's teaching (satipatthana) was to know a presently arisen paramattha dhamma.' When satipatthana is understood in this way there are no discrepancies whatsoever between the Canon and its commentaries. When we understand there are only paramattha dhammas then we are motivated to learn the nature of dhammas. There is indeed suffering, and there is a cause, and end, and a path leading to the end, of suffering. But all of these things can be understood without once having to look beyond our understanding of paramattha dhammas. In other words, the Eigthfold Path can (and should) be understood entirely in terms of fleeting paramattha dhammas. We can think in terms of "my practice" and "my Path progress" and we can think of conventional ways in which a path might be followed. But why would we bother with such things when we have the paramattha explanation? D: I don't know whether you noticed recently a brief discussion between Tep and me about the relation of D.O. and ( 4 N.T. , in particular ) the 8 fold Noble Path . We agreed on theory and practise (parityatti-paripatti....) The Path is medicine to take, action in which the theory has to be translated into practise (i.e. the 3fold N.P. training of sila , samadhi, panna) The point of sila /wholesome action isn't in question , but the samadhi part (samma vayama,samma sati and samma samadhi). Repeating J.Bullit's statement : 'And what of their first-hand understanding of Dhamma: if the commentators were scholars first and foremost, would they have had sufficient meditative experience to write with authority on the subject of meditation? This is more problematic. Perhaps commentators like Buddhaghosa had enough time (and accumulated merit) both for mastering meditation and for their impressive scholarly pursuits; we will never know. But it is noteworthy that the most significant discrepancies between the Canon and its commentaries concern meditation ¡X in particular, the relationship between concentration meditation and insight.4 The question of the authority of the post-canonical texts thus remains a point of controversy within Theravada Buddhism.' So, when you say : "In other words, the Eigthfold Path can (and should) be understood entirely in terms of fleeting paramattha dhammas" you jump to the panna part without going through the necessary penetration : the theory shows only what the practise has to prove. Ken: The choice of another kind of spectacles is a choice of conventional view in preference to paramattha view, isn't it? D: in my understanding one needs glasses to read and others for one's surroundings similar two pairs needed for mundane and supramundane issues.. Unfortunately unlike spectacles the combination in one has not yet succeeded. Modern atomphysics ,which shattered Newton's model of the world, shows that utimately there are nothing like fleeting particles (but only because there are noticed , pls compare with a recent mail from Alex) nevertheless for daily life the laws of the latter remain rather unchanged. The First Noble Truth doesn't say only : suffering is 5 Khanda attachment. Ken: As for why that choice is made, I do have a theory: Every day on DSG people are presented with some straightforward logic. They are asked to understand the proposition that there is no self, there are only conditioned dhammas. Surprisingly, however, many [otherwise intelligent] people cannot follow that logic. They see the proposition of no self as a sign of annihilation-belief, or they see the proposition of dhammas existing as a sign of eternity (reification) belief. Only a very powerful force could prevent intelligent people from understanding straightforward logic. In this case I would say it was the force of wrong view. What would you say? D: I can't remember DSG members to connect the anatta doctrin with annihilation-belief, believing that many understand the point : it is the conditioning (D.O.) what makes us identify with I/Self. The 'straightforward logic' is only a beginning of a process of detachment (the 10 fetters), assuming path practise. The Buddha emphasized the difficulty due to habitual attachment since long, long time.. The 'powerful force ' behind ignorance (avijja). Einstein comes into my mind , who once said: the I is an illusion but a very stubborn one.. Our communication assumes that you try to understand my point as well which I missed when you say in a previous message : 'I won't comment on that because I am not sure I have understood. : (repeating the issue: Ken: I think you must be aware of the Abhidhamma explanation of the Eightfold Path. Therefore, I don't need to tell you there is no self (no conventional entity) that travels it. The path is just a fleeting moment of namas and rupas in which the cetasika-namas called Path Factors perform their supramundane functions. D: I think for a fruitful discussion we both need to keep the conventional and the ultimate perspective in mind. The former applies to those in training to become a Noble One, the latter treats the truth from the view/understanding of those having reached the level ( obviously Abhidhamma was proclaimed to those far advanced..) In order that the cetasikas can perform their functions wholesome for the path factors, the mind needs (the 3fold N.P.) training . Nina used once the expression 'habitual tendencies' for cetasika . Our habit (pls compare with persona ) conditioned by ignorant kamma forces /will , ie. avijja - sankhara- .. is just this procedure as explained in the chain of D.O. and our attachment just that what identifies with self: that I am, that is mine etc.. with Metta Dieter #87745 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 2, 2008 11:36 am Subject: Q. Re: [dsg] Sundries: DN33 1.1-5 nilovg Dear Connie, lovely quotes, thank you. I like the way thus have I heard is put in. This reminds me of what I read in the Perfections, the Perfection of Truthfulness: < Consequently, in order to show his own discipleship, he said: ‘Evaÿ me suttaÿ. Ekaÿ samayaÿ bhagavå Såvatthiyaÿ viharati Jetavane Anåthapiùèikassa åråme...’ which means: Thus have I heard. On one occasion the Blessed One was living at Såvatthí in Jeta’s Wood, Anåthapiùèika’s Park...” These words were spoken by the venerable Ånanda, more than twothousand and fivehundred years ago. If we today just hear the words, “Thus have I heard”, we are impressed by the thoughts of the venerable Ånanda who on the occasion of the first rehearsal made it clear that he was only a disciple. That is why he said, “Thus have I heard”. He did not speak his own words, because he was not the Exalted One. He was only a disciple and had heard these words from the Exalted One. When Buddhists hear the words, “Thus have I heard”, even after more than twothousand and fivehundred years have passed, enthusiasm and joy can arise because they have an opportunity to hear these words again. Thus, they can consider the Buddha’s teachings when he was dwelling in the Jeta Grove or at other places. .... We shall know whether the Buddha is our real teacher if we listen, consider and follow the right practice. When the venerable Ånanda spoke the word, evaÿ, meaning: thus, he demonstrated the excellence of the teaching, because there should be a person who teaches and also a person who listens. There cannot be a listener without a teacher. Just by the word evaÿ, thus, he demonstrated the excellence of the teaching. When he said, me suttaÿ, I have heard, he demonstrated the excellence of the discipleship. This disciple was the venerable Ånanda, not someone else. The venerable Ånanda, the disciple who was five times signalized as the Foremost-in-Discourse, said, evaÿ me suttaÿ, thus have I heard. When he said, ekaÿ samayaÿ, on one occasion, he demonstrated the excellence of the time, the time when he heard the teaching of the Dhamma. We should remember that the excellence of the time to hear the Dhamma is now. It is not easy to find the opportunity to hear the Dhamma. When people have important tasks to fulfil they cannot listen to the Dhamma, but they hear other things. With the words, ekaÿ samayaÿ, on one occasion, the venerable Ånanda demonstrated the excellence of the occasion to hear the teaching of the Dhamma. > Nina. Op 2-jul-2008, om 17:54 heeft connie het volgende geschreven: > "Even the Exalted One, the Teacher of the ariyan Dhamma, the Bearer > of the Ten Powers, whose body was like a mass of diamonds, has > passed away. Who then can hope to live forever?" Reciting the word > 'thus', he shows that the sutta possesses a teaching; by the words > 'have I heard', that it possesses a listener; by the words 'on one > occasion', that it possesses a specific time; and by the words 'the > Exalted One', that it possesses a teacher. >> #87746 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Jul 2, 2008 2:17 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: response to hate mail etc - revised and corrected edition kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > > Hi KenH, > > . . . > You're a funny fellow, KenH. It was only just the other day that you > typed out a whole bunch of stuff on nonads and decads. No > interrelations there, of course, only pure Theravada Dhamma that was > as uplifting for me to read as it was for you to type :-) > Hi Herman, I am sorry if I have given the wrong impression. My slowness in typing out the Vissudhimagga thread has nothing to do with any perceived dullness of the topic. Actually, I find the Vism. very inspiring *when* I can force myself to read it. Long tacts of text are always off-putting for me, no matter what the content. Even a newspaper is too much. (I get my news from the radio.) But when I get into it, the Vism. is always - to use your word - "uplifting." When reading that really ancient commentary, I can see the exact same, obscure, perspective on the Dhamma (in which anatta means no-control) as is still being discussed here, thousands of years later, at DSG. What a blast! :-) Ken H #87747 From: "Alex" Date: Wed Jul 2, 2008 3:48 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: response to hate mail etc - revised and corrected edition truth_aerator Hi Ken and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Actually, I find the Vism. very inspiring *when* I can force myself > to read it. Long tacts of text are always off-putting for me, no > matter what the content. >>>> I do love to read, especially the suttas. Sometimes I could do 100 pages a day. I don't want this to turn to a "I am better than you" contest, however: With what you've said, what makes you so sure that you are correct even though you can't seem to read enough? And reading itself isn't enough. One must think (cittamaya panna) and MEDITATE (bhavanamayapanna). Stuff that is simply read and not put into practice isn't very useful IMHO. Anyhow, rethinking and revisiting the suttas makes me from time to reconsider my positions. In any case, the Buddha has stressed the importance of Energy (viriya). Buddhist path for liberation is very strenuous (which is why good health is an asset). It is true that Energy is dependently arisen selfless phenomena. When someone truthfully says to a pujjhana: "There is no self, things arise due to causes and conditions, no need to try, there isn't anyone to do it anyways, it is all clinging to rites and rituals." Guess what? Even IF the above is correct, the Pujjhana with its worldly delusion can easily use the above teaching as an excuse not to put in effort. So the above teaching even if correct, at the beginning is inappropriate. Even Anagamis have residual "I AM" feeling, nothing to say about modern lazy Pujjhanas. The phrase of no-control may be good for an Anagamin working for Arahatship path, but not for Pujjhana! That phrase is too early and gives the kilesas ammunition to fry whatever mundane kusala things a person could have developed due to other conditions. When we look at the Buddha's teaching for becoming a Sotapanna, we do NOT encounter the talk of "no self no control". Remember the gradual teaching? I hope nobody claims to know better than Buddha himself. > >Even a newspaper is too much. (I get my news from the radio.) But >when I get into it, the Vism. is always - to use your word - >uplifting." >>> For kilesas that don't want mundane viriya to be developed? I too would love the - "Don't strain yourself, that just ego. Let the conditions play themselves out." Best wishes, Alex #87748 From: "Alex" Date: Wed Jul 2, 2008 4:00 pm Subject: Craving & Conceit when skillfully used is REQUIRED. truth_aerator Hi Ken and all, > Ken: 'All of us who believe that the Buddha's teaching >satipatthana) was to know a presently arisen paramattha dhamma.' >When satipatthana is understood in this way there are no >discrepancies whatsoever between the Canon and its commentaries. >>>> Well we certainly can find common knowledge between a school teacher and a 1st grader. The question is: On what level is this common ground, common knowledge? The Teacher is the Buddha. The 1st grader is a non-ariyan commentator living 1000 years after the Buddha, compared to the Buddha. >>> > When we understand there are only paramattha dhammas then we are >motivated to learn the nature of dhammas. There is indeed suffering, >and there is a cause, and end, and a path leading to the end, of >suffering. But all of these things can be understood without once > having to look beyond our understanding of paramattha dhammas. > In other words, the Eigthfold Path can (and should) be understood >entirely in terms of fleeting paramattha dhammas. Sutta quotes please. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > We can think in terms of "my practice" and "my Path progress" and >we can think of conventional ways in which a path might be followed. >But why would we bother with such things when we have the paramattha >explanation? >>>>>>>>> Because even an Anagamin has residual feeling of "I am". If a Pujjhana has very weak feeling of "I am", then its a vegetable patient in a coma or a baby Pujjhana. Buddha's teaching doesn't promote one to become a comatose vegetable, happy clam or selfless bunny wabbit. ============ Ven. Ananda =================================== "This body comes into being through craving. And yet it is by relying on craving that craving is to be abandoned. "This body comes into being through conceit. And yet it is by relying on conceit that conceit is to be abandoned. "'This body comes into being through craving. And yet it is by relying on craving that craving is to be abandoned.' Thus was it said. And in reference to what was it said? There is the case, sister, where a monk hears, 'The monk named such-and-such, they say, through the ending of the fermentations, has entered & remains in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having known & realized them for himself in the here & now.' The thought occurs to him, 'I hope that I, too, will — through the ending of the fermentations — enter & remain in the fermentation-free awareness- release & discernment-release, having known & realized them for myself in the here & now.' Then, at a later time, he abandons craving, having relied on craving. 'This body comes into being through craving. And yet it is by relying on craving that craving is to be abandoned.' Thus was it said. And in reference to this was it said. "'This body comes into being through conceit. And yet it is by relying on conceit that conceit is to be abandoned.' Thus was it said. And in reference to what was it said? There is the case, sister, where a monk hears, 'The monk named such-and-such, they say, through the ending of the fermentations, has entered & remains in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having known & realized them for himself in the here & now.' The thought occurs to him, 'The monk named such-and-such, they say, through the ending of the fermentations, has entered & remains in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having known & realized them for himself in the here & now. Then why not me?' Then, at a later time, he abandons conceit, having relied on conceit. 'This body comes into being through conceit. And yet it is by relying on conceit that conceit is to be abandoned.' Thus was it said, and in reference to this was it said. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.159.than.html ==================================================== Sutta speaks for itself. Best wishes, Alex #87749 From: "derekacameron" Date: Wed Jul 2, 2008 8:26 am Subject: Re: Levels of upacara samadhi derekacameron Thank you, Sarah. This is great research. Since my post, I've learned that the term upacaara samaadhi is sometimes used to refer not only to the stage before the first jhaana, but also to the stage before the second jhaana, the third jhaana, and so on. It may be that these were the different kinds of upacaara samaadhi I came across, though in this case there would have to be 8 of them rather than the 6 I remember. As your references suggest, it may also have something to do with javana. For sure I will let you know if I find the source! Derek. #87750 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Jul 2, 2008 5:32 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: response to hate mail etc - ... Credibility buddhatrue Hi Herman and Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > Here's wishing that all this change will transpire with great ease. > > All the best with it Thank you both for your good wishes. I will be returning to Taiwan to teach after the summer. But I will be teaching at a different school. With so much change I am trying to take it more easy: eat well, get lots of rest, moderate exercise, take vitamins, meditate, and avoid heated battles in DSG. :-) Metta, James #87751 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Jul 2, 2008 5:35 pm Subject: Re: A Metta Meditation from the Judaic Tradition buddhatrue Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > I forgive everyone who has angered, provoked, or > sinned against me, both physically or emotionally, > intentionally or unintentionally, whether by word, > action or thought; and may no person come to any > suffering because of me. I really like this metta meditation/prayer as well. I especially like the inclusion of forgiveness, which I believe is so important to metta cultivation. But, I wonder why forgiveness isn't included in metta suttas or commentaries? Metta, James #87752 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Jul 2, 2008 5:40 pm Subject: To Rob M..... buddhatrue Hi Rob M., I have a request for you. I haven't seen you posting to DSG too much lately so I'm not even sure if you are around, but I will try anyway. I know that you are a scholar and teacher of the Abhidhamma so I would appreciate your input: What can you say about hiri and ottappa according to the Abhidhamma? They are translated as moral shame and moral fear. Do they involve the actual feelings of shame and fear or do they involve calm, pleasant feelings? Any input you could offer into this issue would be appreciated. Thanks! Metta, James #87753 From: "Alex" Date: Wed Jul 2, 2008 5:45 pm Subject: Abhidhamma story Vs Mahayana story. Why you chose the first one? truth_aerator Hello all, I know that some of you believe the mythical (hsitorically & scientifically unverifiable) of Buddha going to high Heaves to preach Abhidhamma all in one session (few month) to the angels that "Hey, you ain't go no soul!". Historically, linguistically, literal and scholastic analysis shows that Abhidhamma (like the Mahayana) suttas is a later work. The story of Abhidhamma and its origin itself came much later, at approximately the same time as Mahayana Sutras (give or take a century or 2). Question: Why do you belive the (unverifiable) story of Buddha teaching Theravada Abh to Devas rather than believing that he was discriminative in his teaching and has left Mahayana sutras hidden in a dragon realm to be discovered by Nagarjuna. Or more, according to some Saṃdhinirmocana sûtra there were 3 turnings of the wheel of Dharma. In the first turning he taught the "sravaka" doctrine, in the 2nd and 3rd turning of the wheel of Dharma he has taught the Higher Teaching (The Mahayana) - so the legend goes. What makes you prefer to believe in one account versus the other? Any important reasons? Best wishes, Alex #87754 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jul 2, 2008 2:48 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Metta Meditation from the Judaic Tradition upasaka_howard Hi, James - In a message dated 7/2/2008 8:36:02 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@... writes: Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > I forgive everyone who has angered, provoked, or > sinned against me, both physically or emotionally, > intentionally or unintentionally, whether by word, > action or thought; and may no person come to any > suffering because of me. I really like this metta meditation/prayer as well. I especially like the inclusion of forgiveness, which I believe is so important to metta cultivation. But, I wonder why forgiveness isn't included in metta suttas or commentaries? ---------------------------------------- Howard: One thought I have is that perhaps when metta ('chesed', in Hebrew) is there, forgiveness is automatic. ----------------------------------------- Metta, James ======================== With metta, Howard #87755 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jul 2, 2008 2:51 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] To Rob M..... upasaka_howard Hi, James (and Rob) - In a message dated 7/2/2008 8:41:21 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@... writes: Hi Rob M., I have a request for you. I haven't seen you posting to DSG too much lately so I'm not even sure if you are around, but I will try anyway. I know that you are a scholar and teacher of the Abhidhamma so I would appreciate your input: What can you say about hiri and ottappa according to the Abhidhamma? They are translated as moral shame and moral fear. Do they involve the actual feelings of shame and fear or do they involve calm, pleasant feelings? Any input you could offer into this issue would be appreciated. Thanks! Metta, James =============================== As an aside, Thanissaro Bhikkhu rather mildly renders them, respectively, as 'conscience' and 'concern'. With metta, Howard #87756 From: "robmoult" Date: Wed Jul 2, 2008 10:43 pm Subject: Re: To Rob M..... robmoult Hi James (and Howard); --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > What can you say about hiri and ottappa > according to the Abhidhamma? They are translated as moral shame and > moral fear. Do they involve the actual feelings of shame and fear or > do they involve calm, pleasant feelings? ===== I extracted the following from Nina's book, "Cetasikas": The Visuddhimagga (XIV, 142) gives the following definition of hiri, moral shame (here translated as conscience), and ottappa, fear of blame (here translated as shame): It has conscientious scruples (hiriyati) about bodily misconduct, etc., thus it is conscience (hiri). This is a term for modesty. It is ashamed (ottappati) of those same things, thus it is shame (ottappa). This is a term for anxiety about evil. Herein, conscience has the characteristic of disgust at evil, while shame (ottappa) has the characteristic of dread of it. Conscience has the function of not doing evil and that in the mode of modesty, while shame has the function of not doing it and that in the mode of dread. They are manifested as shrinking from evil in the way already stated. Their proximate causes are self-respect and respect of others (respectively). Moral shame can arise because of consideration of one's birth, one's age, heroism (courage and strength) and wide experience - consideration of one's birth when someone of a respectable family does not want to act as someone who has not had a proper education - consideration of one's age when someone who is an adult does not want to behave like a child - consideration of heroism when someone does not want to act like a weakling but feels that he should have courage and strength - consideration of wide experience when one does not want to act like a fool who has not learnt anything Fear of blame, ottappa, fears the consequences of evil (kamma result and accumulation of "bad habits"). Moral shame and fear of blame are the proximate cause of sila, morality. We read in the Visuddhimagga (I, 22): For when conscience (hiri) and shame (ottappa) are in existence, virtue arises and persists; and when they are not, it neither arises nor persists. Iti 2.15; Iti 36, reads: This was said by the Lord... "Bhikkhus, these two bright principles protect the world. What are the two? Shame and fear of wrongdoing. If, bhikkhus, these two bright principles did not protect the world, there would not be discerned respect for mother or maternal aunt or maternal uncle's wife or a teacher's wife or the wives of other honored persons, and the world would have fallen into promiscuity, as with goats, sheep, chickens, pigs, dogs, and jackals. But as these two bright principles protect the world, there is discerned respect for mother... and the wives of other honored persons." Those in whom shame and fear of wrong Are not consistently found Have deviated from the bright root And are led back to birth and death. But those in whom shame and fear of wrong Are consistently ever present, Peaceful, mature in the holy life, They put an end to renewal of being. James, we can see that hiri and ottappa do not involve the negative mental factors of "shame" or "fear"; these unwholesome mental factors are always accompanied by aversion (aversion to the current situation) and an upleasant mental feeling. Hiri and ottappa arise only in wholesome mental states. Wholesome mental states can be accompanied by pleasant or neutral mental feeling. When you have a confidence that you are doing the right thing, this can create a calm, pleasant feeling. The proximate cause for hiri is respect for yourself. The opposite of hiri is often translated as shamelessness. When you have a confidence that your actions are blameless, this can create a calm, pleaseant feeling. The proximate cause for ottappa is respect for others. The opposite of ottappa is often translated as recklessness. James, allow me to close with a quote from a Bhikku Bodhi essay: Hiri and Ottappa are united in the common task of protecting the mind from moral defilement. Hiri, the sense of shame, has an internal reference; it is rooted in self-respect and induces us to shrink from wrongdoing out of a feeling of personal honor. Ottappa, fear of wrongdoing, has an external orientation. It is the voice of conscience that warns us of the dire consequences of moral transgression: blame and punishment by others or the painful kammic results of evil deeds. Acariya Buddhaghosa illustrates the difference between the two with the simile of an iron rod smeared with excrement at one end and heated to a glow at the other end: Hiri is like one's disgust at grabbing the rod in the place where it is smeared with excrement, Ottappa is like one's fear of grabbing it in the place where it is red hot. I hope that this helps. Metta, Rob M :-) #87757 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 2, 2008 11:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Metta Meditation from the Judaic Tradition nilovg Hi Howard, I also liked your post on forgiveness. I agree, no need for long thinking to forgive. I learnt that forgiving is a kind of dana too. As is in the sutta, when abstaining from akusala you give the other person the opportunity to live in peace. As to the paramattha level, when you understand more that whatever we experience is only a conditioned dhamma, it helps not to blame persons. Who is there to blame? The Buddha spoke differently to different people, depending on their level of understanding. To some he would stress the disadvantage of akusala, to others he would speak about the development of understanding of nama and rupa which leads to detachment from the idea of self or person. Nina. Op 3-jul-2008, om 3:48 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > One thought I have is that perhaps when metta ('chesed', in Hebrew) is > there, forgiveness is automatic. #87758 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Jul 2, 2008 11:28 pm Subject: Re: To Rob M..... buddhatrue Hi Rob M., Thank you for coming out of the woodwork to answer this question for me. However, unfortunately, you also don't use the primary Abhidhamma texts as reference. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > > Hi James (and Howard); > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" > wrote: > > What can you say about hiri and ottappa > > according to the Abhidhamma? They are translated as moral shame > and > > moral fear. Do they involve the actual feelings of shame and fear > or > > do they involve calm, pleasant feelings? > > ===== > > I extracted the following from Nina's book, "Cetasikas": > The Visuddhimagga (XIV, 142) gives the following definition of hiri, > moral shame (here translated as conscience), and ottappa, fear of > blame (here translated as shame): It has conscientious scruples > (hiriyati) about bodily misconduct, etc., thus it is conscience > (hiri). This is a term for modesty. It is ashamed (ottappati) of > those same things, thus it is shame (ottappa). This is a term for > anxiety about evil. Herein, conscience has the characteristic of > disgust at evil, while shame (ottappa) has the characteristic of > dread of it. Conscience has the function of not doing evil and that in > the mode of modesty, while shame has the function of not doing it and > that in the mode of dread. They are manifested as shrinking from evil > in the way already stated. Their proximate causes are self-respect and > respect of others (respectively). > > Moral shame can arise because of consideration of one's birth, one's > age, heroism (courage and strength) and wide experience > - consideration of one's birth when someone of a respectable family > does not want to act as someone who has not had a proper education > - consideration of one's age when someone who is an adult does not > want to behave like a child > - consideration of heroism when someone does not want to act like a > weakling but feels that he should have courage and strength > - consideration of wide experience when one does not want to act like > a fool who has not learnt anything > > Fear of blame, ottappa, fears the consequences of evil (kamma result > and accumulation of "bad habits"). > > Moral shame and fear of blame are the proximate cause of sila, > morality. We read in the Visuddhimagga (I, 22): For when conscience > (hiri) and shame (ottappa) are in existence, virtue arises and > persists; and when they are not, it neither arises nor persists. > > > > Iti 2.15; Iti 36, reads: > This was said by the Lord... > "Bhikkhus, these two bright principles protect the world. What are > the two? Shame and fear of wrongdoing. If, bhikkhus, these two bright > principles did not protect the world, there would not be discerned > respect for mother or maternal aunt or maternal uncle's wife or a > teacher's wife or the wives of other honored persons, and the world > would have fallen into promiscuity, as with goats, sheep, chickens, > pigs, dogs, and jackals. But as these two bright principles protect > the world, there is discerned respect for mother... and the wives of > other honored persons." > > Those in whom shame and fear of wrong > Are not consistently found > Have deviated from the bright root > And are led back to birth and death. > > But those in whom shame and fear of wrong > Are consistently ever present, > Peaceful, mature in the holy life, > They put an end to renewal of being. > > > > James, we can see that hiri and ottappa do not involve the negative > mental factors of "shame" or "fear"; James: Okay, I don't know who this "we" is, but don't include me. Because I read all of what you quoted, from Nina and from the suttas, and it seems plain to me that hiri and ottappa involve, to a certain degree, shame and fear. And I don't really care if those are traditionally unwholesome feelings, in this case I find them wholesome. I believe that this is another instance of the quote that Alex recently quoted from Ven. Ananda. At the beginning of the path, clinging is needed to end clinging and conceit is needed to end conceit. I also believe that at the beginning of the path, dosa is need to end dosa. Don't ask me to explain how or why, but that is how I see it. these unwholesome mental factors > are always accompanied by aversion (aversion to the current > situation) and an upleasant mental feeling. Hiri and ottappa arise > only in wholesome mental states. Wholesome mental states can be > accompanied by pleasant or neutral mental feeling. James: If hiri and ottappa were accompanied by pleasant or neutral feeling they wouldn't stop anything! That is the main problem today: people have no feelings of shame or fear when they commit wrongdoing. It has become a society of "if it feels good, do it." > > When you have a confidence that you are doing the right thing, this > can create a calm, pleasant feeling. James: You can have a calm, pleasant feeling even when you are on a murdering rampage. Just because it feels good that doesn't mean you should do it! The proximate cause for hiri is > respect for yourself. The opposite of hiri is often translated as > shamelessness. > > When you have a confidence that your actions are blameless, this can > create a calm, pleaseant feeling. The proximate cause for ottappa is > respect for others. The opposite of ottappa is often translated as > recklessness. > > James, allow me to close with a quote from a Bhikku Bodhi essay: > Hiri and Ottappa are united in the common task of protecting the mind > from moral defilement. Hiri, the sense of shame, has an internal > reference; it is rooted in self-respect and induces us to shrink from > wrongdoing out of a feeling of personal honor. Ottappa, fear of > wrongdoing, has an external orientation. It is the voice of > conscience that warns us of the dire consequences of moral > transgression: blame and punishment by others or the painful kammic > results of evil deeds. Acariya Buddhaghosa illustrates the difference > between the two with the simile of an iron rod smeared with excrement > at one end and heated to a glow at the other end: Hiri is like one's > disgust at grabbing the rod in the place where it is smeared with > excrement, Ottappa is like one's fear of grabbing it in the place > where it is red hot. > > > > I hope that this helps. James: Well, honestly, this didn't help at all. I am very disappointed in your answer. But, I am tired of discussing this issue so I am just going to drop it. So, go ahead: if it feels good, do it!! :-(( > > Metta, > Rob M :-) > Metta, James #87759 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Jul 2, 2008 11:34 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: A Metta Meditation from the Judaic Tradition buddhatrue Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > ---------------------------------------- > Howard: > One thought I have is that perhaps when metta ('chesed', in Hebrew) is > there, forgiveness is automatic. > ----------------------------------------- This could be true but when you are someone like me, who has suffered years of physical and mental abuse as a child, and so you have an automatic distrust and aversion toward people, then you have to have forgiveness before you can have metta toward people. I don't really think it is automatic for everyone. The Jews, being an abused people, must have realized this. Metta, James #87760 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 3, 2008 2:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Metta Meditation from the Judaic Tradition nilovg Hi James and Howard, Op 3-jul-2008, om 8:34 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > This could be true but when you are someone like me, who has suffered > years of physical and mental abuse as a child, and so you have an > automatic distrust and aversion toward people, then you have to have > forgiveness before you can have metta toward people. I don't really > think it is automatic for everyone. ------ N: Instead of the word automatic we could say: spontaneous, but it is all by conditions. Nobody can command citta to be with metta, it has arisen already. Aversion or annoyance, it has arisen already. In understanding more about conditions we shall understand other people's accumulations more, and then we do not mind so much their ways of reacting or expressing themselves. We become more tolerant, accepting people as they are. They are still our friends, no matter how they behave. As Kh Sujin said (in conventional language): we can become an understanding person. Nina. #87761 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 3, 2008 3:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: To Rob M..... nilovg Hi James, Op 3-jul-2008, om 8:28 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > At the beginning of the > path, clinging is needed to end clinging and conceit is needed to > end conceit. I also believe that at the beginning of the path, dosa > is need to end dosa. ------- N: At the beginning of the Path understanding is needed, even intellectual understanding, of what clinging, conceit or dosa are. They arise because of their own conditions, and they have no possessor, they cannot be manipulated. But we are inclined to take them for mine, for self. The way leading to their eradication is understanding and this eradicates first wrong view. So long as there is wrong view of self there is no way to eradicate them. Nina. #87762 From: "robmoult" Date: Thu Jul 3, 2008 3:38 am Subject: Re: To Rob M..... robmoult Hi James, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Rob M., > > Thank you for coming out of the woodwork to answer this question for > me. However, unfortunately, you also don't use the primary > Abhidhamma texts as reference. > I am on the road at the moment (as usual) and I do not have my primary Abhidhamma texts with me. I now have a much better idea of what you are looking for and I will get back to you early next week with a more appropriate answer. Quick clarification... obviously the Suttas and the seven original Abhidhamma texts are acceptable references but can I also quote Buddhaghosa's commentaries and the Visuddhimagga? Metta, Rob M :-) #87763 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jul 3, 2008 12:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Metta Meditation from the Judaic Tradition upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 7/3/2008 2:26:56 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, I also liked your post on forgiveness. I agree, no need for long thinking to forgive. I learnt that forgiving is a kind of dana too. As is in the sutta, when abstaining from akusala you give the other person the opportunity to live in peace. -------------------------------------------- Howard: I agree. ------------------------------------------- As to the paramattha level, when you understand more that whatever we experience is only a conditioned dhamma, it helps not to blame persons. Who is there to blame? -------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, that is true, and there can be no sense of a literal person-to-forgive when there is no sense of an independent individual. On the other hand, two streams of experience, while interacting, aren't identical, and the akusala states that arise need to be dealt with *where they are*. The Buddha emphasized compassion to the one who lacked in compassion and courage to the one who was afraid. ------------------------------------------- The Buddha spoke differently to different people, depending on their level of understanding. -------------------------------------------- Howard: Exactly so, which confirms my last point. ---------------------------------------------- To some he would stress the disadvantage of akusala, to others he would speak about the development of understanding of nama and rupa which leads to detachment from the idea of self or person. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, indeed. This tailoring of means to need, of providing proper medicine for the exact illness, is what some call the Buddha's utilzation of "skillful means." ----------------------------------------------- Nina. Op 3-jul-2008, om 3:48 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > One thought I have is that perhaps when metta ('chesed', in Hebrew) is > there, forgiveness is automatic. =========================== With metta, Howard #87764 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jul 3, 2008 1:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Metta Meditation from the Judaic Tradition upasaka_howard Hi, James - In a message dated 7/3/2008 2:34:52 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@... writes: Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > ---------------------------------------- > Howard: > One thought I have is that perhaps when metta ('chesed', in Hebrew) is > there, forgiveness is automatic. > ----------------------------------------- This could be true but when you are someone like me, who has suffered years of physical and mental abuse as a child, and so you have an automatic distrust and aversion toward people, then you have to have forgiveness before you can have metta toward people. I don't really think it is automatic for everyone. --------------------------------------------------- Howard: The metta is surely not automatic - it requires cultivation. As for forgiveness, though, I can't see it arising without some metta in place as well, a modicum of good will seeming to me to be needed for forgiveness to be possible. In any case, my comment went, oppositely, in the direction of sufficiency - the sufficiency of metta; i.e., that when metta IS there, the forgiveness comes along for the ride. ---------------------------------------------------- The Jews, being an abused people, must have realized this. --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Of course Jews have recognized that neither lovingkindness nor forgiveness is automatic. (In the religion, the force that combats these is the so-called "yetzer hara" - the "evil inclination," which lies as a defilement deep in every ordinary "soul".) Many have found it hard to forgive, and quite understandably, I would say. But one thing that has been a countervailing force is that, truly, suffering can be a condition for compassion., a compassion that even can extend to the perpetrators because of "suffering recognizing suffering". (Frequently, those who inflict pain do so out of their own suffering, and compassion for those who cause suffering in others can arise due to a recognition of this.) ----------------------------------------------------- Metta, James ========================== With metta, Howard #87765 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jul 3, 2008 1:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Metta Meditation from the Judaic Tradition upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and James) - In a message dated 7/3/2008 5:12:18 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi James and Howard, Op 3-jul-2008, om 8:34 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > This could be true but when you are someone like me, who has suffered > years of physical and mental abuse as a child, and so you have an > automatic distrust and aversion toward people, then you have to have > forgiveness before you can have metta toward people. I don't really > think it is automatic for everyone. ------ N: Instead of the word automatic we could say: spontaneous, but it is all by conditions. Nobody can command citta to be with metta, it has arisen already. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: It has arisen already, ... or NOT! Nina, it can be cultivated!! In particular, it can be cultivated in part by specific types of thinking. By intentionally considering the commonality of pain among people, a considering that grows out of introspection and mindful observation of self and others, the mind can be trained in empathy. It is true that we cannot *command* that consciousness be accompanied by lovingkindness, but the stage can be set! It is a grave error to think otherwise, I believe. --------------------------------------------- Aversion or annoyance, it has arisen already. In understanding more about conditions we shall understand other people's accumulations more, and then we do not mind so much their ways of reacting or expressing themselves. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Nina, you seem to have an inclination to think in terms solely of what has already happened, paying no attention to how future states can come about based on what happens now. It is good sometimes to direct one's thinking in the forward direction. Please recall the Buddha's words: Mind is the forerunner of (all evil) states. Mind is chief; mind-made are they. If one speaks or acts with wicked mind, suffering follows one, even as the wheel follows the hoof of the draught-ox. Mind is the forerunner of (all good) states. Mind is chief; mind-made are they. If one speaks or acts with pure mind, AFFECTION follows one, even as one's shadow that never leaves. ------------------------------------------------- We become more tolerant, accepting people as they are. They are still our friends, no matter how they behave. As Kh Sujin said (in conventional language): we can become an understanding person. Nina. ======================== With metta, Howard #87766 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Thu Jul 3, 2008 6:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: To Rob M..... egberdina Hi RobM, 2008/7/3 robmoult : > Acariya Buddhaghosa illustrates the difference > between the two with the simile of an iron rod smeared with excrement > at one end and heated to a glow at the other end: Hiri is like one's > disgust at grabbing the rod in the place where it is smeared with > excrement, Ottappa is like one's fear of grabbing it in the place > where it is red hot. What would be more important, if you had to chose? Would it be more important to write something pleasant even though it was meaningless, or would it be to write something meaningful, even if it was unpleasant? You pontificate on the absence of aversion in hiri and ottappa, and then conclude that hiri is like disgust, and that ottappa is like fear. For my money, you just wrote what the hiri end of the rod was dipped in. I'm not even inclined to say cheers, this is just insanity Herman #87767 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Thu Jul 3, 2008 6:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Because ..... was (Buddhist texts 101: part 2) egberdina Hi Sarah, 2008/7/2 sarah abbott : > Hi Herman, > > --- On Tue, 1/7/08, Herman Hofman wrote: > H:>So, what can WE say about these reams and reams of Pali texts we have > inherited? > .... > S: We'll say/not say anything there are conditions to say/not say. At such times, such saying/silence can be with any idea of 'WE' existing or there can be the right understanding that the thinking and speech are just more conditioned dhammas which are as ephermeral as all others. > ........ I've hived this bit off to another thread, because I believe it is a derail of the topic under discussion, which is an historical appreciation of Buddhist texts. You seem to be saying that whatever we do happens because of reasons, but because you do not specify any reasons, you imply that everything we do happens because of unknown reasons. Thank you for sharing that view. What conditioned the writing of it? And if you don't know, why hold the view? Cheers Herman #87768 From: Dieter Möller Date: Thu Jul 3, 2008 8:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Metta Meditation from the Judaic Tradition moellerdieter Hi Howard and all, you wrote: ',It has arisen already, ... or NOT! Nina, it can be cultivated!! In particular, it can be cultivated in part by specific types of thinking.... D: well said, Howard! .. may the practise of Right Effort , the 6xth constituent of the Noble Path not be neglected..and the recollection of the beautiful Metta Sutta be sustained (see below, Buddhanet ) with Metta Dieter Sutta Nipatta 1.8 : This is what should be done By one who is skilled in goodness, And who knows the path of peace: Let them be able and upright, Straightforward and gentle in speech. Humble and not conceited, Contented and easily satisfied. Unburdened with duties and frugal in their ways. Peaceful and calm, and wise and skillful, Not proud and demanding in nature. Let them not do the slightest thing That the wise would later reprove. Wishing: In gladness and in saftey, May all beings be at ease. Whatever living beings there may be; Whether they are weak or strong, omitting none, The great or the mighty, medium, short or small, The seen and the unseen, Those living near and far away, Those born and to-be-born, May all beings be at ease! Let none deceive another, Or despise any being in any state. Let none through anger or ill-will Wish harm upon another. Even as a mother protects with her life Her child, her only child, So with a boundless heart Should one cherish all living beings: Radiating kindness over the entire world Spreading upwards to the skies, And downwards to the depths; Outwards and unbounded, Freed from hatred and ill-will. Whether standing or walking, seated or lying down Free from drowsiness, One should sustain this recollection. This is said to be the sublime abiding. By not holding to fixed views, The pure-hearted one, having clarity of vision, Being freed from all sense desires, Is not born again into this world. #87769 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Jul 3, 2008 4:16 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: response to hate mail etc - ... Credibility kenhowardau Hi Dieter, -------------- <. . .> D: > So, when you say : "In other words, the Eigthfold Path can (and should) be understood entirely in terms of fleeting paramattha dhammas" you jump to the panna part without going through the necessary penetration : the theory shows only what the practise has to prove. ------------- You are right in saying that I jump to the panna part. That is exactly what I have been trying to tell you all along. The path taught by the Buddha was a path of understanding from beginning to end. Understanding develops every time it arises. That is the meaning of "practice" in the Buddhist sense. At first there may be only intellectual understanding (pariyatti), but that is nonetheless a function of panna - and panna is the same cetasika that diretly knows nibbana! With practice, the panna of pariyatti develops to function at higher and higher levels (including patipatti and pativedha) until, eventually, it experiences nibbana. Most modern-day Buddhists have been taught to believe that panna develops from the absence of panna. Concentration-without-panna (for example) is said to develop into concentration-with-panna. But that is entirely wrong. That is silabbataparamasa. -------------------- KH: > > The choice of another kind of spectacles is a choice of conventional view in preference to paramattha view, isn't it? > > D: > in my understanding one needs glasses to read and others for one's surroundings similar two pairs needed for mundane and supramundane issues.. Unfortunately unlike spectacles the combination in one has not yet succeeded. ------------------- Sorry, you've lost me. You seem to be using the terms 'mundane' and 'supramundane' as if they were synonyms for 'conventional' and 'ultimate.' At DSG (as in the Buddhist Dictionary) we use 'mundane' for the Pali word 'lokiya' and 'supramundane' for 'lokuttara' while we use 'conventional' for 'pannatti' and 'ultimate' for 'paramattha.' I'll snip the bit about atomphysics because I can't follow it. But I think you are trying to tell me there are two realities. I, on the other hand, am trying to tell you there is only one reality. There are two ways in which the Buddha described reality (one using conventional language and the other Abhidhamma language), but there is only one reality. ------------- <. . .> D: > The First Noble Truth doesn't say only : suffering is 5 Khanda attachment. ------------- I believe the 1st NT does say exactly that. In the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta we read: "In brief, the five aggregates of attachment are suffering." I think you will find that "in brief" means "in the ultimate sense." Therefore, we can see that the Buddha's conventional-language description of dukkha (sickness, old age etc) was followed by his Abhidhamma-language description of dukkha (the five khandhas). Two ways of describing it, but only the one truth (the one dukkha)! -------------------------------- <. . .> D: > Our communication assumes that you try to understand my point as well which I missed when you say in a previous message : 'I won't comment on that because I am not sure I have understood. : (repeating the issue: Ken: I think you must be aware of the Abhidhamma explanation of the Eightfold Path. Therefore, I don't need to tell you there is no self (no conventional entity) that travels it. The path is just a fleeting moment of namas and rupas in which the cetasika-namas called Path Factors perform their supramundane functions. D: I think for a fruitful discussion we both need to keep the conventional and the ultimate perspective in mind. The former applies to those in training to become a Noble One, the latter treats the truth from the view/understanding of those having reached the level ( obviously Abhidhamma was proclaimed to those far advanced..) -------------------------------- I don't know where you got that impression. I think it must stem from our different use of those terms (supramundane, conventional etc). But, whatever the cause, there definitely is a breakdown in communication. I hope this post will help to some extent. ---------------------- D: > In order that the cetasikas can perform their functions wholesome for the path factors, the mind needs (the 3fold N.P.) training. Nina used once the expression 'habitual tendencies' for cetasika . Our habit (pls compare with persona ) conditioned by ignorant kamma forces /will, ie. avijja - sankhara- .. is just this procedure as explained in the chain of D.O. and our attachment just that what identifies with self: that I am, that is mine etc.. ------------------------ Sorry, but I still can't follow. And I am trying! :-) Ken H #87770 From: "Alex" Date: Thu Jul 3, 2008 4:36 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: response to hate mail etc - ... Credibility truth_aerator Hi Ken, Scott, Sukinder, Nina, Jon, Sarah, Dieter and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Dieter, > You are right in saying that I jump to the panna part. That is > exactly what I have been trying to tell you all along. The path > taught by the Buddha was a path of understanding from beginning to > end. > Exactly. It is important to understand nama-rupa as they arise and cease. For the beginners who aren't 100% certified homegrown Arahants, it is important to sharpen this skill (at least in the beginning) in intensive, and hopefully long, meditation retreats. I hope nobody here is going to say that they know better than Venerable Mahasi Saydaw or Ajahn Maha Boowa. Between KS and Ven Mahasi Sayadaw, who do you think is more learned and experienced in Meditation? Best wishes, Alex #87771 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Thu Jul 3, 2008 4:53 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sangiitisutta Corner DN 33 1.6-1.7 egberdina Hi connie/Scott, 2008/7/1 Scott Duncan : > Dear All, > > > Walshe > > DN 33.1.6 Now at that time the Niga.n.tha Naataputta [iii 210] had > just died at Paavaa. And at his death the Niga.n.thas were split into > two parties, quarreling and disputing, (as in Sutta 29 - Paasaadika, > verse 1) {p.427: DN 29.1: > > Olds > > The Nigantha, Nathason, friends has recently deceased, and since his > death the Niganthas have fallen apart and live quarreling amongst each > other, using a variety of wounding words and wrangling phrases such > > RDs > > > [ 210 ] Now at that time the Niga.n.tha, Naatha's son, had just died > at Paava..8 After his death the Niga.n.thas became divided, falling > into opposite parties and into strife, disputes broke out and they I was interested to see that Olds uses the perfect tense (has recently deceased) and the others use the pluperfect tense (had just died). Can you tell me what tense is indicated by the the original Pali, and is there indeed "room" to use either tense? Cheers Herman #87772 From: "Alex" Date: Thu Jul 3, 2008 5:07 pm Subject: Re: response to hate mail etc - ... Credibility truth_aerator Hi Ken and all, > wrote: > You are right in saying that I jump to the panna part. That is > exactly what I have been trying to tell you all along. The path > taught by the Buddha was a path of understanding from beginning to > end. > What about Sila & Samadhi? Without developing these to appropriate degree, jumping strait to Panna is like a guy who cannot bench 150 pounds trying to bench 300 pounds - without spotters and support Best wishes, Alex #87773 From: "connie" Date: Thu Jul 3, 2008 5:41 pm Subject: Sangiitisutta Corner DN 33 1.6-1.7 nichiconn Dear Herman, H: I was interested to see that Olds uses the perfect tense (has recently deceased) and the others use the pluperfect tense (had just died). Can you tell me what tense is indicated by the the original Pali, and is there indeed "room" to use either tense? c: adhunaa: now; recently; newly. I'm no grammarian, but sure, why not? kaala'nkata: dead = done finished doing time ?? peace, connie 301. Tena kho pana samayena niga.n.tho naa.taputto paavaaya.m adhunaakaala'nkato hoti. > Walshe > DN 33.1.6 Now at that time the Niga.n.tha Naataputta [iii 210] had > just died at Paavaa. > > Olds > The Nigantha, Nathason, friends has recently deceased, > > RDs > [ 210 ] Now at that time the Niga.n.tha, Naatha's son, had just died > at Paava.. #87774 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Jul 3, 2008 5:55 pm Subject: Re: response to hate mail etc - ... Credibility kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > > Hi Ken, Scott, Sukinder, Nina, Jon, Sarah, Dieter and all, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" > wrote: > > Hi Dieter, > > You are right in saying that I jump to the panna part. That is > > exactly what I have been trying to tell you all along. The path > > taught by the Buddha was a path of understanding from beginning to > > end. > > > > Exactly. It is important to understand nama-rupa as they arise and > cease. For the beginners who aren't 100% certified homegrown > Arahants, it is important to sharpen this skill (at least in the > beginning) in intensive, and hopefully long, meditation retreats. Hi Alex, I am glad you have mentioned Venerable Mahasi Saydaw and Ajahn Maha Boowa. It is only from teachers such as these that we hear about meditation retreats and formal vipassana practices. There is no mention of such things in the Tipitaka or in the ancient commentaries. There are some dedicated Abhidhamma scholars (Suan Zu Law and Htoo Niang, for example) who admit that these things are not found in the texts and who believe [as you do] that the Burmese Sayadaws play a vital role in the preservation of the Dhamma (by teaching them). ------------------------ A: > Between KS and Ven Mahasi Sayadaw, who do you think is more learned and experienced in Meditation? ------------------------ Unlike the various meditation masters K Sujin does not teach anything that is not found in the texts. The Dhamma that she recognises (that is found entirely in the texts) does not require anything to be added to it. More importantly, it contradicts the notion of formal meditation. When we accept that there are only conditioned dhammas (no self) we see that there is no sense in trying to change the way things are. There is no sense in trying to change the dhammas that have arisen now by conditions. Ken H #87775 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Jul 3, 2008 5:58 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sangiitisutta Corner DN 33 1.6-1.7 scottduncan2 Dear Herman, connie, Regarding Herman's questioning: H: "...Olds uses the perfect tense (has recently deceased) and the others use the pluperfect tense (had just died). Can you tell me what tense is indicated by the the original Pali, and is there indeed 'room' to use either tense?" Scott: I believe the phrase in the Paa.li is: "Tena kho pana samayena niga.n.tho naa.taputto paavaaya.m adhunaakaala'nkato hoti." Scott: The precise phrase seems to be 'adhunaakaala"nkato hoti'. I think the gist would be: "just now, quite recently...at the improper time...done, made...to become..." And so my vote would go for 'had just died', but its a rather complicated turn of phrase, and not really one verb, as far as I can tell. connie, please do better than that, should you wish, or had you ever the wish to do so. Sincerely, Scott. #87776 From: "Alex" Date: Thu Jul 3, 2008 6:28 pm Subject: Re: response to hate mail etc - ... Credibility truth_aerator Hi Ken, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi Alex, > > I am glad you have mentioned Venerable Mahasi Saydaw and Ajahn Maha > Boowa. It is only from teachers such as these that we hear about > meditation retreats and formal vipassana practices. There is no > mention of such things in the Tipitaka or in the ancient > commentaries. > So you say that KS is better than them? Since when did she achieve all the nanas and when did she become an Arahant? > > ------------------------ > A: > Between KS and Ven Mahasi Sayadaw, who do you think is more > learned and experienced in Meditation? > ------------------------ > > Unlike the various meditation masters K Sujin does not teach >anything that is not found in the texts. The Dhamma that she >recognises Studying AP isn't mentioned in Suttas. Anapanasati is mentioned MANY TIMES mn118, anapanasati-samyutta and many other suttas. Kayagatasati + Jhanas is mentioned in mn119 and so on. Please mention the suttas from 4 Main Nikayas that say "Nobody should ever do formal meditation. Read Abh Pitaka. Don't meditate." >(that is found entirely in the texts) does not require anything to >be added > to it. More importantly, it contradicts the notion of formal > meditation. When we accept that there are only conditioned dhammas > (no self) we see that there is no sense in trying to change the way > things are. There is no sense in trying to change the dhammas that > have arisen now by conditions. > > Ken H > This is precisely what meditation vs ordinary life is. In proper meditation, you practice not to add or subtract anything. In daily life if you tried that, then you'd be run over by those with bigger anger, craving, conceit, avarice, desire to win, and so on. Best wishes, Alex #87777 From: LBIDD@... Date: Thu Jul 3, 2008 9:30 pm Subject: Vism.XVII,277-279 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga), Ch. XVII 277. And all these come about with the arising of the canker of views, according as it is said: 'In one who possesses [the view] "I am materiality", "my materiality", with the change and transformation of materiality there arise sorrow and lamentation, pain, grief and despair' (S.iii,3). 278. And as with the arising of the canker of views, so also with the arising of the canker of becoming, according as it is said: 'Then whatever deities there are, long-lived, beautiful, blissful, long-resident in grand palaces, when they hear the Perfect One's teaching of the Dhamma, they feel fear, anxiety and a sense of urgency' (S.iii,85), as in the case of deities harassed by the fear of death on seeing the five signs.43 -------------------- Note 43: Their flowers wither, their clothes get dirty, sweat comes from their armpits, their bodies become unsightly, and they get restless (see MA.iv,170). 279. And as with the arising of the canker of becoming, so also with the canker of ignorance, according as it is said: 'The fool, bhikkhus, experiences pain and grief here and now in three ways' (M.iii,163). Now these states come about with the arising of the cankers, and so when they are established, they establish the cankers which are the cause of ignorance. And when the cankers are established, ignorance is also established because it is present when its condition is present. This, in the first place, is how ignorance, etc., should be understood to be established by sorrow and so on. ********************** 277. sabbepi cete di.t.thaasavasamudayaa honti. yathaaha -- ``tassa `aha.m ruupa.m mama ruupa´nti pariyu.t.tha.t.thaayino ruupavipari.naama~n~nathaabhaavaa uppajjanti sokaparidevadukkhadomanassupaayaasaa''ti (sa.m0 ni0 2.3.1). 278. yathaa ca di.t.thaasavasamudayaa, eva.m bhavaasavasamudayaapi. yathaaha -- ``yepi te devaa diighaayukaa va.n.navanto sukhabahulaa uccesu vimaanesu cira.t.thitikaa, tepi tathaagatassa dhammadesana.m sutvaa bhaya.m santaasa.m sa.mvegamaapajjantii''ti (sa.m0 ni0 2.3.78). pa~nca pubbanimittaani disvaa mara.nabhayena santajjitaana.m devaana.m viya. 279. yathaa ca bhavaasavasamudayaa, eva.m avijjaasavasamudayaapi. yathaaha -- ``sa kho so bhikkhave baalo tividha.m di.t.theva dhamme dukkha.m domanassa.m pa.tisa.mvedetii''ti (ma0 ni0 3.246). iti yasmaa aasavasamudayaa ete dhammaa honti, tasmaa ete sijjhamaanaa avijjaaya hetubhuute aasave saadhenti. aasavesu ca siddhesu paccayabhaave bhaavato avijjaapi siddhaava hotiiti. eva.m taavettha sokaadiihi avijjaa siddhaa hotiiti veditabbaa. #87778 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jul 3, 2008 10:25 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Practice is what counts! Practice vs studying. sarahprocter... Hi Alex, --- On Wed, 2/7/08, Alex wrote: A:>If there is a practice that denoursihes unwholesome states and nourishes all wholesome states (regardless if you can list them off the top of your head) then why not do it as much as possible? ****** S: Without some basic understanding of the details, there will be no understanding of what 'practice' is, what 'unwholesome states' are, what 'wholesome states' are. There will be no understanding of anatta and the practice will all be taken for mine. So, as you've been finding and indicating in your discussions recently, there will just be lots and lots of confusion and doubt about what exactly anatta is, what realities are, what the khandhas are and so on. One will desperately try to find a way to include a self in and read the suttas in a way that suggests that the Buddha didn't really teach there was no self. One will follow teachers who encourage an idea that self can really control the practice. One will go on retreats which encourage more such wrong practice, preferably in silence and without books, so that there won't be a serious considering, discussing and reading about dhammas as anatta, beyond anyone's control even now. By following the so-called breath or sensations or any other preferred object, there won't be the development of detachment or the understanding of conditioned dhammas. There will just be more clinging to 'me' and 'my practice' and 'its results'. You referred to the common 'eating of the menu' analogy. I'd like to point out in turn that all kinds of useful words and reminders and consideration of dhammas are like the ingredients, so essential for the chef's dishes, beginning with the right understanding and detachment of whatever dhamma appears at the present moment. It's also essential that the chef work with a sharp knife and good equipment. Without the very careful study and consideration, he'll be practising his skills, as if with a blunt knife and rusty pots and pans and few if any ingredients at all. If you visit such a restaurant, there won't be much to choose between the menu and the dishes. We all have to be 'baahu-suta', the one who hears a lot, learns and understands a lot. Without the understanding of details to really get to know deeply about dhammmas, it's impossible to really appreciate that they are conditioned realities arising and falling away from moment to moment. In AN, Bk 0f 7s, (PTS transl), it refers to the 'treasure of listening' as fully appreciated by the ariyan disciples: "Consider the Ariyan disciple who listens much(bahussuto), there is a retaining, a storing of things heard; and those things, lovely in the beginning, lovely in the middle, lovely in the end, which set forth in meaning and detail the godly life, wholly fulfilled, perfectly pure; all those are heard much by him, retained in mind, familiarized by talk, pored over, well penetrated by right view. This is called the treasure of listening." There really has to be a lot of thinking over, deep considering over and over, awareness and understanding, more listening, more considering and more understanding. It's never enough. If it were enough or such detail wasn't useful, the Buddha wouldn't have taught for so long and with such care and compassion. You'll repeat again and again that it's enough to read particular suttas and that after that it's a matter of meditation practice. You'll also have heard from friends and teachers who've been doing that for decades and still have serious wrong misconceptions about very basic points, such as dhammas being under one's control, stages of wisdom being wretched, miserable, fearful events, wholesome dhammas such as hiri and ottappa arising with unpleasant feeling, feelings (vedana) being experienced through the body-sense as heat, cold and motion, samsara being nibbana and so on and so on. More serious still are the misconceptions based on ignorance which lead such friends and teachers to believe they've attained higher insights, jhanas and even enlightenment, when actually there isn't even the most basic theoretical understanding of namas vs rupas. Finally, let me re-quote the following which Matheesha gave before (#54136): M:> Sussusa Sutta Listening Well Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only. "Endowed with these six qualities, a person is incapable of alighting on the lawfulness, the rightness of skillful mental qualities even when listening to the true Dhamma. Which six? "When the Doctrine & Discipline declared by the Tathagata is being taught, he does not listen well, does not give ear, does not apply his mind to gnosis, grabs hold of what is worthless, rejects what is worthwhile, and is not endowed with the patience to conform with the teaching. http://www.metta.lk/mirror/www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/angutt ara/an06-088.html ------------------- >M: Serenity as a result of listening. Interesting: Anguttara Nikaya V.202 Dhammassavana Sutta Listening to the Dhamma Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only. "There are these five rewards in listening to the Dhamma. Which five? "One hears what one has not heard before. One clarifies what one has heard before. One gets rid of doubt. One's views are made straight. One's mind grows serene. "These are the five rewards in listening to the Dhamma." Revised: Sun 19-Oct-2003 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an05-202.html ****** S: In summary, no one is suggesting you memorize lists of figures and tables. However, the careful consideration and examination of what is heard and read, especially with regard to the meaning of 'practice' at this very moment, is essential in order to eradicate all ideas of atta, of control of present dhammas by anyone. Metta, Sarah ========= #87779 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Jul 3, 2008 10:27 pm Subject: Re: response to hate mail etc - ... Credibility buddhatrue Hi Ken H., --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Alex, > > I am glad you have mentioned Venerable Mahasi Saydaw and Ajahn Maha > Boowa. It is only from teachers such as these that we hear about > meditation retreats and formal vipassana practices. There is no > mention of such things in the Tipitaka or in the ancient > commentaries. That is not true. The tradition of meditation retreats for laypeople goes back to the Buddha himself. The Buddha recommended for layfollowers to practice Uposatha Days, the first and 15th day of each month. During those days the laypeople would go the Buddhist temple and for one day and one night practice the 8 precepts and practice meditation on Recollection of the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha, Recollection of Virtue, and Recollection of Devas. They would practice these recollections (meditations) in order to purify the mind: As he is recollecting the Tathagata, his mind is calmed, and joy arises; the defilements of his mind are abandoned, just as when the head is cleansed through the proper technique. And how is the head cleansed through the proper technique? Through the use of cosmetic paste & clay & the appropriate human effort. This is how the head is cleansed through the proper technique. In the same way, the defiled mind is cleansed through the proper technique. And how is the defiled mind cleansed through the proper technique? There is the case where the disciple of the noble ones recollects the Tathagata... As he is recollecting the Tathagata, his mind is cleansed, and joy arises; the defilements of his mind are abandoned. He is thus called a disciple of the noble ones undertaking the Brahma-Uposatha. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.070.than.html So, during the Buddha's time, laypeople practiced one day and night meditation retreats. I would suppose that some practiced for more than one day. Anyway, the tradition of meditation retreats is not new and there is support for such in the suttas. Metta, James #87780 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Jul 3, 2008 10:55 pm Subject: Re: To Rob M..... buddhatrue Hi Rob M., --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > I am on the road at the moment (as usual) and I do not have my primary > Abhidhamma texts with me. I now have a much better idea of what you are > looking for and I will get back to you early next week with a more > appropriate answer. James: Thank you. Sorry if my reply was a little snappy but I am getting quite frustrated with this topic. > > Quick clarification... obviously the Suttas and the seven original > Abhidhamma texts are acceptable references but can I also quote > Buddhaghosa's commentaries and the Visuddhimagga? James: You can quote whatever you like, but I specifically wanted to know what the Abhidhamma stated in this regard. From experience I don't trust the CMA (Comprehesive Manual of Abhidhamma) and the Vism. is so wordy and vague at times that it is easily misinterpreted. I would like for you to stick to the seven main books of the Abhidhamma if you can. To me, this issue is very straightforward so I am perplexed as to the controversy. If I do something bad, like tell a deliberate lie, if I feel ashamed of myself afterward, that is hiri, and if I feel afraid of the consequences afterward, that is ottappa. Now, if I tell a deliberate lie and I don't feel anything, or I feel happy, then I am lacking in the wholesome qualities of hiri and ottappa. If I don't tell any lies, then I feel good and peaceful. I don't consider this good and peaceful feeling of not telling lies to be hiri and ottappa or even associated with hiri and ottappa. This good, peaceful feeling is purification of sila. And, I could use it as a meditation on Recollection of Virtue and achieve jhana. Rob, if you believe that hiri and ottappa are accompanied by pleasant feeling then please give some real world examples of how that works. How would pleasant feelings stop unwholesome behavior? What is the guilty feeling after an act of akusala? What is the fear of the consequences of an act of akusala? Is it better to commit an act of akusala and then intentionally feel peaceful afterwards for fear of multiplying akusala? Does that really make any sense? I will wait for your further response. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) > Metta, James #87781 From: "connie" Date: Fri Jul 4, 2008 12:12 am Subject: Vism.XVII,277-279 nichiconn Path of Purity, pp.694-5: And all of them have their source in the canker of views. As it has been said: "In him who says 'I am the body, [577] body is mine' and is possessed by this idea sorrow and lamenting, suffering, grief and despair arise, owing to the unstable and changeful nature of body." {Sa.myutta iii, 3.} And as they spring from the canker of views so do they from the canker of becoming. As it is said: "Then, whatsoever devas there be, long-living, beautiful and blissful, long established in lofty palaces, when they hear the Norm-teaching of the Tathaagata, they become fearful, fall a-trembling and a-quaking" {Kindred Sayings iii, 71}, as do the devas frightened by the fear of death on seeing the five signs. {The five signs are: the flowers worn by them become faded, their clothes become dirty, sweat exudes from their armpits, their complexion changes, they do not delight in the world of devas. - .Tiikaa. Cf. Iti. v, §83.} And as they spring from the canker of becoming, so do they from the canker of ignorance. As it is said "Monks, he is a fool who, here and now, experiences threefold pain and grief." {Majjhima iii, 163.} Thus because these states (sorrow and so on) spring from the cankers, therefore when they are effected, they give effect to the cankers which are the condition of ignorance. And when the cankers are effected, ignorance is also effected, since it exists in the existence of the cause. Thus herein should be understood, "ignorance is by sorrow and such others accomplished." #87782 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Fri Jul 4, 2008 2:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] What is a question? was Re: Overview of KS 3: Her Faulty Teaching egberdina Hi Jon, 2008/6/27 jonoabb : > Hi Phil > >> Nothing more need to be said about this passage as far as I'm >> concerned. We do it (it happens) or we don't (or it doesn't.) That's >> all. > > Agreed. It either happens or it doesn't. As you say, nothing more > need be said about that. > > But there remains the question of whether or not it will happen. > Would it not be useful to know what the suttas have to say on that? > This may seem a flippant post. However, I actually believe it to address something very fundamental that is rarely considered. We are often prodded here with questions like "what is the reality of the present moment?", as if something significant or useful is being said. But I would like to suggest that without knowing what is happening when a question is being asked, an answer to a question like "what is the reality of the present moment?" that does not incorporate the question itself, is based in ignorance. So, especially from a paramattha dhamma point of view, what is a question? Cheers Herman #87783 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 4, 2008 3:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Metta Meditation from the Judaic Tradition nilovg Hi Howard, Op 3-jul-2008, om 14:26 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > It has arisen already, ... or NOT! Nina, it can be cultivated!! In > particular, it can be cultivated in part by specific types of > thinking. By > intentionally considering the commonality of pain among people, a > considering that > grows out of introspection and mindful observation of self and > others, the > mind can be trained in empathy. It is true that we cannot *command* > that > consciousness be accompanied by lovingkindness, but the stage can > be set! It is a > grave error to think otherwise, I believe. > --------------------------------------------- > N: Of course metta can and should be developed, who denies that? I > like to stress understanding. When someone never heard the Dhamma > he may by his accumulations have kindness, but he may not know the > difference between metta and selfish affection. Then he listens to > the Dhamma and learns more about metta that is quite different from > what is generally called love. I call this a beginning of > understanding. ---------- > H, quotes N: Aversion or annoyance, it has arisen already. In > understanding more about conditions we shall understand other > people's accumulations more, and then we do not mind so much their > ways of reacting or expressing themselves. > ---------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Nina, you seem to have an inclination to think in terms solely of what > has already happened, paying no attention to how future states can > come about > based on what happens now. It is good sometimes to direct one's > thinking in > the forward direction. ------- N: I think of the “Bhaddekaratta Sutta of Lomasakangiya” that the deva Candana approached the venerable Lomasakangiya and asked him whether he remembered the exposition and analysis of the Baddhekaratta Sutta. It appeared that both of them could not remember this, but Candana remembered the verses. He related that the Buddha had taught these when he dwelled in the Heaven of the Thirtythree. They are the following verses: The past should not be followed after, the future not desired. What is past is got rid of and the future has not come. But whoever has vision now here, now there of a present dhamma, The unmovable, unshakable, let him cultivate it [2]. Swelter at the task this very day. Who knows whether he will die tomorrow?> It is already quite a task to understand this moment, and important too. Otherwise we mislead ourselves, taking for metta what is not metta but attachment. But sure, we understand that a specific cause will bring this or that effect, and in this sense we take account of the future. But I feel no need to especially direct the mind towards the future. --------- > H: Please recall the Buddha's words: > Mind is the forerunner of (all evil) states. Mind is chief; mind- > made are > they. If one speaks or acts with wicked mind, suffering follows > one, even as the > wheel follows the hoof of the draught-ox. > Mind is the forerunner of (all good) states. Mind is chief; mind- > made are > they. If one speaks or acts with pure mind, AFFECTION follows one, > even as one's > shadow that never leaves. > ------------------------------------------------- N: In Ven. Narada's translation I read happiness instead of affection. I understand this tetx as the exposition of kamma and vipaaka. There is another point people may have misunderstanding of: they may think of themselves as having or possessing metta, not realizing that there are moments of metta and that these fall away immediately. If one forgets this, it may give rise to conceit: I am so good having metta. Nina. #87784 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 4, 2008 3:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sangiitisutta Corner DN 33 1.6-1.7 nilovg Dear Connie, Scott, Herman. kaala.m karoti: is an expression for to die. to make one's time. kaala.m kato: p.p. He was someone who had died. 301. Tena kho pana samayena niga.n.tho naa.taputto paavaaya.m adhunaakaala'nkato hoti. > RDs > [ 210 ] Now at that time the Niga.n.tha, Naatha's son, had just died > at Paava.. Nina. Op 4-jul-2008, om 2:41 heeft connie het volgende geschreven: > c: adhunaa: now; recently; newly. > I'm no grammarian, but sure, why not? > kaala'nkata: dead = done finished doing time ?? #87785 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Jul 4, 2008 5:36 am Subject: Re: Sundries scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, Regarding: S: "Scott, when I wrote, I had meant to ask you for any further reflections you had on the Sundries topic. I found it very helpful to consider the good points you'd raised, thank you." Scott: I've tried twice now to reply but each time was foiled by either the send function being inoperative or, most recently, some password prompt. At any rate, two posts gone, I'll not try again. If you had some particular point you'd wanted me to comment on, perhaps we could try that way... Thanks for your kindness. Sincerely, Scott. #87786 From: "Alex" Date: Fri Jul 4, 2008 5:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Practice is what counts! Practice vs studying. truth_aerator HI Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Alex, > > --- On Wed, 2/7/08, Alex wrote: > A:>If there is a practice that denoursihes unwholesome states and > nourishes all wholesome states (regardless if you can list them off > the top of your head) then why not do it as much as possible? > ****** > S: Without some basic understanding of the details, there will be >no understanding of what 'practice' is, what 'unwholesome states' >are, what 'wholesome states' are. There will be no understanding of >anatta and the practice will all be taken for mine. > This is true, but to what degree? Furthermore: There are some induvidials who have to meditate. There are very few, if any, people who can hear (even a lot), really really think and become Ariyas. Even Sariputta had to go through 2 weeks of intense Jhanic practice in the retreat (mn111) before on the 14th day when fanning a Buddha and listening to MN74 discourse he realized Arahatship, being at least a sotopanna (if not Anagami). >>> > So, as you've been finding and indicating in your discussions >recently, there will just be lots and lots of confusion and doubt >about what exactly anatta is, what realities are, what the khandhas >are and so on. >>>> I don't know about some other people, but whenever I post challenging questions (esp. about anatta) it doesn't nesseserily mean that I hold those positions. >>>> >One will desperately try to find a way to include a self in and read >the suttas in a way that suggests that the Buddha didn't really >teach there was no self. >>>> Or quite the opposite, trying one's best to remove self from the equation in a vibhava fashion masquerading as detachement. > > One will follow teachers who encourage an idea that self can really >control the practice. One will go on retreats which encourage more >such wrong practice, preferably in silence and without books, so >that there won't be a serious considering, discussing and reading >about dhammas as anatta, beyond anyone's control even now. > As I understand it, Ven Mahasi Sayadaw's practice doesn't teach that Dhammas are under control. Neither is Ven. Ajahn Brahm's, Ven. Maha Boowa's, teaching. So your correct critique may at best apply only to certain New Age non-Buddhist practices. ===================================== ... The Blessed One saw Ven. Sariputta sitting not far away — his legs crossed, his body held erect — modest, content, solitary, unentangled, his persistence aroused, devoted to the heightened mind. Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that occasion exclaimed: Exalted in mind & heedful, the sage trained in sagacity's ways: He has no sorrows, one who is Such, calmed & ever mindful. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.4.07.than.html =================== Explain the above passage where Sariputta was engaging in practice. "...sitting not far away — his legs crossed, his body held erect — modest, content, solitary, unentangled, his persistence aroused, devoted to the heightened mind..." Oh yeh, according to later works in KN (MahaNiddesa, Nettipakarana) and Visuddhimagga there is a type of character type for whom meditation is counterproductive. So I guess I need to apologize, as it may be possible that some people are that type who don't need meditation. And one of the best defence of KS, is that she teaches those kinds of people whose character type isn't advised to meditate. To each his own, I guess. Please forgive me, Best wishes, Alex #87787 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jul 4, 2008 1:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: response to hate mail etc - ... Credibility upasaka_howard Hi, James - In a message dated 7/4/2008 1:27:15 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@... writes: That is not true. The tradition of meditation retreats for laypeople goes back to the Buddha himself. The Buddha recommended for layfollowers to practice Uposatha Days, the first and 15th day of each month. During those days the laypeople would go the Buddhist temple and for one day and one night practice the 8 precepts and practice meditation on Recollection of the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha, Recollection of Virtue, and Recollection of Devas. They would practice these recollections (meditations) in order to purify the mind: As he is recollecting the Tathagata, his mind is calmed, and joy arises; the defilements of his mind are abandoned, just as when the head is cleansed through the proper technique. And how is the head cleansed through the proper technique? Through the use of cosmetic paste & clay & the appropriate human effort. This is how the head is cleansed through the proper technique. In the same way, the defiled mind is cleansed through the proper technique. And how is the defiled mind cleansed through the proper technique? There is the case where the disciple of the noble ones recollects the Tathagata... As he is recollecting the Tathagata, his mind is cleansed, and joy arises; the defilements of his mind are abandoned. He is thus called a disciple of the noble ones undertaking the Brahma-Uposatha. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.070.than.html So, during the Buddha's time, laypeople practiced one day and night meditation retreats. I would suppose that some practiced for more than one day. Anyway, the tradition of meditation retreats is not new and there is support for such in the suttas. ============================= I would add that in modern times, some of monastic practice has extended to the laity. Included in monastic practice from the time of the Buddha is the custom of rains retreats (vassa). Today, retreats for laity are similar, in some cases even lasting for as long as the traditional 3-month period. With metta, Howard #87788 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Fri Jul 4, 2008 6:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: [ dsg] Re: Kamma, was Death. egberdina Hi Jon, 2008/7/2 Jonothan Abbott : > I don't think I'm likely to be suggesting that action is a consequence > of conditions (whatever that might mean). It might mean just what it says. > Of course, intention (the > mental factor) is said to be a conditioned dhamma, but that is by no > means the same as saying that action is a consequence of conditions. Ohh? A conditioned dhamma is not a dhamma that is a consequence of conditons? > When talking about deeds/action in the context of kamma, the dhamma in > question is cetana/intention (the mental factor). Intention has no consequences in the world, Jon. It may be a fact not to your liking, but your parents had to DO something other than intending, to bring you about. I can draw pictures if that will help :-) Cheers Herman #87789 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jul 4, 2008 2:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: To Rob M..... upasaka_howard Hi, James (and Rob) - In a message dated 7/4/2008 1:56:11 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@... writes: To me, this issue is very straightforward so I am perplexed as to the controversy. If I do something bad, like tell a deliberate lie, if I feel ashamed of myself afterward, that is hiri, and if I feel afraid of the consequences afterward, that is ottappa. Now, if I tell a deliberate lie and I don't feel anything, or I feel happy, then I am lacking in the wholesome qualities of hiri and ottappa. ============================= James, I somewhat agree with you on this matter, but not entirely. As regards conscience in its "fear" or concern aspect with respect to future activity, i.e., the "nagging" disinclination to act wrongly, I don't generally find that to be unpleasant. It is generally either neutral or pleasant in my experience, at times even inspiring and joyful. If the fear of wrong action, however, is really a fear of retribution - human or divine or kammic, that is an aversive reaction and certainly unpleasant, and, IMO, a false substitute for genuine conscience. As regards conscience with respect to past improper actions, I think that varies in affective feel. When it is a realization of culpability accompanied by regret of the past improper action and the determination to set matters aright, that need not be unpleasant and may even be pleasant. However, as remorse it is indeed unpleasant, and moments of remorse, ranging from slight in intensity to extreme, may occur, interspersed. Remorse, however, is a perversion of conscience, I believe - a harmful aversion and self-loathing. Of course, proper regret may slip into remorse quite easily, and it is at that point that one is falling away from the appropriate center point, IMO. With metta, Howard #87790 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jul 4, 2008 6:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Practice is what counts! Practice vs studying. sarahprocter... Hi Alex, Thanks for your quick reply. --- On Fri, 4/7/08, Alex wrote: > S: Without some basic understanding of the details, there will be >no understanding of what 'practice' is, what 'unwholesome states' >are, what 'wholesome states' are. There will be no understanding of >anatta and the practice will all be taken for mine. > A:>This is true, but to what degree? .... S: I think that when awareness and understanding begin to develop, there will be more and more interest in reading/hearing/considering/studying the teachings in more and more detail, really reflecting on what each word means as related to the practice at this moment. That's why the ariyan disciples are the ones who truly appreciate the 'treasure of listening' and who are the bahu-suta (Ones who've heard much). .... A:> Furthermore: There are some induvidials who have to meditate. There are very few, if any, people who can hear (even a lot), really really think and become Ariyas. .... S: Let's be more precise and discuss what bhavana is. Bhavana means mental development. There cannot be any such development without right understanding. Without listening, hearing and considering, there won't be the development of any right understanding. So, Alex, 'meditation' comes back to the wise reflection and understanding of realities at this moment. The conditions for it are the association with the wise, the hearing of the teachings, the consideration of the teachings and the development/penetration of what's been heard. .... A:> Even Sariputta had to go through 2 weeks of intense Jhanic practice in the retreat (mn111) before on the 14th day when fanning a Buddha and listening to MN74 discourse he realized Arahatship, being at least a sotopanna (if not Anagami). .... S: Who was Sariputta (by accumulations) and who are we today? Should we try to imitate Sariputta or listen to and consider what can be known at this very moment? .... >>> >S: So, as you've been finding and indicating in your discussions >recently, there will just be lots and lots of confusion and doubt >about what exactly anatta is, what realities are, what the khandhas >are and so on. >>>> A:> I don't know about some other people, but whenever I post challenging questions (esp. about anatta) it doesn't nesseserily mean that I hold those positions. .... S: I'm glad to hear it:-) .... >>>> >S: One will desperately try to find a way to include a self in and read >the suttas in a way that suggests that the Buddha didn't really >teach there was no self. >>>> A:> Or quite the opposite, trying one's best to remove self from the equation in a vibhava fashion masquerading as detachement. .... S: lol! I think the teachings are quite clear and simple really (that doesn't mean easy to understand, of course). Rupas are dhammas, not-self and the same applies for the other khandhas. That's it! ... >S: One will follow teachers who encourage an idea that self can really >control the practice. One will go on retreats which encourage more >such wrong practice, preferably in silence and without books, so >that there won't be a serious considering, discussing and reading >about dhammas as anatta, beyond anyone's control even now. > A:> As I understand it, Ven Mahasi Sayadaw's practice doesn't teach that Dhammas are under control. Neither is Ven. Ajahn Brahm's, Ven. Maha Boowa's, teaching. So your correct critique may at best apply only to certain New Age non-Buddhist practices. .... S: When one is instructed to follow any particular practice or focus on any particular dhammas, even 'whatever is arising', or to return to the breath or abdomen, I believe there is an idea of control and an ignorance of dhammas as anatta. It's a sensitive point, I know, Alex. When one is then encouraged to see the stages of insight being 'ticked off' through such a practice, basically motivated by attachment and self-view, it becomes very misleading. The desire for results can be very strong - don't be led astray by it. .... ============ ========= ========= ======= A:> ... The Blessed One saw Ven. Sariputta sitting not far away — his legs crossed, his body held erect — modest, content, solitary, unentangled, his persistence aroused, devoted to the heightened mind. Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that occasion exclaimed: Exalted in mind & heedful, the sage trained in sagacity's ways: He has no sorrows, one who is Such, calmed & ever mindful. http://www.accessto insight.org/ tipitaka/ kn/ud/ud. 4.07.than. html ============ ======= Explain the above passage where Sariputta was engaging in practice. ... S: The life of the arahant, perfectly content, living alone with whatever dhammas arise, without grief - no matter where he is or what posture he's in. ...... A:> Oh yeh, according to later works in KN (MahaNiddesa, Nettipakarana) and Visuddhimagga there is a type of character type for whom meditation is counterproductive. So I guess I need to apologize, as it may be possible that some people are that type who don't need meditation. ... S: Bhavana is essential for all character-types. And while we're at it, what are these "character-types" or "caritas"? They are lobha, dosa, moha, alobha, adosa, amoha and so on. Different caritas at different moments for all of us. .... A:> And one of the best defence of KS, is that she teaches those kinds of people whose character type isn't advised to meditate. To each his own, I guess. .... S: The path is the same for us all, Alex. It starts with right understanding of dhammas even now as we speak without any attachment to results. And then, it starts again in just the same way and again and again..... This is what bhavana/meditation is all about. Metta, Sarah =========== #87791 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jul 4, 2008 6:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: To Rob M..... sarahprocter... Dear Rob M, Thanks for responding so promptly and assisting with this thread. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > James: You can quote whatever you like, but I specifically wanted to > know what the Abhidhamma stated in this regard. From experience I > don't trust the CMA (Comprehesive Manual of Abhidhamma) and the > Vism. is so wordy and vague at times that it is easily > misinterpreted. I would like for you to stick to the seven main > books of the Abhidhamma if you can. .... S: You may like to dip into the first section of the first chapter of the first book of the Abhidhamma Pitaka (i.e. Dhammasangani). You'll have seen that there are strong reactions to the truth that unpleasant feelings never arise with wholesome states (or that unpleasant feelings and aversion must always be unwholesome. Such reactions are very common. Do you have any thoughts on why this is so? Hope you're having a good summer and finding time to visit Canada. Metta, Sarah ======== #87792 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jul 4, 2008 2:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Metta Meditation from the Judaic Tradition upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 7/4/2008 6:27:55 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: But sure, we understand that a specific cause will bring this or that effect, and in this sense we take account of the future. But I feel no need to especially direct the mind towards the future. ================================= Consideration of future result is important as regards determination of appropriate action to be adopted now, both in terms of effectiveness and in terms of morality. It is important to look towards the results of our actions. (I do know that you realize this, Nina, and I point it out solely to assure against your words being taken wrongly.) With metta, Howard #87793 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Jul 4, 2008 7:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Metta, Ch 9, no 2. jonoabb Hi Herman > And, presumably, the person who causes harm is not responsible for > their actions either. Their actions happened according to conditions > only, right? As I expalined in an earlier post, the law of kamma is often stated in the suttas in the form, "Beings are heirs of their actions". Thus, while it is true that the mental factor of intention (cetana) is a conditioned dhamma, actions performed do carry results (i.e., for the consciousness stream). > According to the teachings, kamma is the domain of Buddhas only. The > problem is that we are not Buddhas. At best we can carefully > scrutinise who said what and when about kamma, and decide on that > basis whether it is of value, IMO. I think the remark about kamma being the domain of Buddhas was made in reference to the intricacies of kamma and its ripening, and not in reference to the broad principles. Indeed, the path-factor of Right View is sometimes expalined in terms an understanding of kamma and vipaka. Jon #87794 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Jul 4, 2008 7:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana Meditation. Again. jonoabb Hi Alex Thanks for another detailed response. I think we both see this matter as being of crucial importance, so it is right we should continue to thrash it out ;-)) On the question of jhana as a prerequisite for the attainment of enlightenment as an anagami, rather than respond to your message point-by-point I'd like to try and summarise what you've said to date. As I read you, this is not something explicitly stated by the Buddha, but is to be inferred mainly from 2 references in the suttas, namely: - the mention of the anagami being 'perfected in concentration' - the description of the destiny of the anagami after death. Is this a fair summary of what you've said on this point? If not, please feel free to correct it. In the meantime, I'd like to move on to consider the development of insight generally, in connection with the following exchange: [Jon] >> I don't think there's any text that says that jhana is necessary in >> order to prepare the mind for the development of insight. [Alex] > It may not be necessary, but it certainly IS helpful. I'd be interested to know what sutta passages you rely on for this statement. Jon #87795 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Jul 4, 2008 7:41 am Subject: [dsg] Re: To Rob M..... buddhatrue Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Rob M, > > Thanks for responding so promptly and assisting with this thread. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > > James: You can quote whatever you like, but I specifically wanted to > > know what the Abhidhamma stated in this regard. From experience I > > don't trust the CMA (Comprehesive Manual of Abhidhamma) and the > > Vism. is so wordy and vague at times that it is easily > > misinterpreted. I would like for you to stick to the seven main > > books of the Abhidhamma if you can. > .... > S: You may like to dip into the first section of the first chapter of the first book of the Abhidhamma Pitaka (i.e. Dhammasangani). James: If you have the information then why didn't you post it? > > You'll have seen that there are strong reactions to the truth that unpleasant feelings never arise with wholesome states (or that unpleasant feelings and aversion must always be unwholesome. > > Such reactions are very common. Do you have any thoughts on why this is so? James: You don't have to be quite so condescending. I gave a very long quote by a venerable monk on hiri and ottappa, from his book "Abhidhamma in Daily Life", which seems like a very credible source to me, and all you do is state that he has it all wrong and that his examples are all wrong. But, you don't provide any alternative examples. How would any normal person react to that? Hmmm...irritated maybe? Then I provide a quote from the Vism. that states that hiri and ottappa are like the excrement smeared end and red hot end of an iron rod. Now, what exactly is pleasant about that? I am not overly excited about this issue and I am more than willing to admit I am wrong if I am wrong. Just give me a concrete example. What I get overly excited about is your condescending attitude about this issue. > > Hope you're having a good summer and finding time to visit Canada. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======== Metta, James > #87796 From: "Alex" Date: Fri Jul 4, 2008 7:55 am Subject: Jhana, path of pleasure seeking for magga-phala truth_aerator Hi Jon, Sarah and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > On the question of jhana as a prerequisite for the attainment of > enlightenment as an anagami, rather than respond to your message > point-by-point I'd like to try and summarise what you've said to >date. > > As I read you, this is not something explicitly stated by the >Buddha, but is to be inferred mainly from 2 references in the >suttas, namely: > - the mention of the anagami being 'perfected in concentration' Perfected, or accomplished (I don't want to argue about semantics) in Samma-Samadhi khanda. > - the description of the destiny of the anagami after death. > Highest Rupa Lokas. Some ariyas can be reborn up to base of nothingness. > > [Jon] >I don't think there's any text that says that jhana is necessary in >order to prepare the mind for the development of insight. > > [Alex] > > It may not be necessary, but it certainly IS helpful. > > I'd be interested to know what sutta passages you rely on for this > statement. > > Jon > 24.2 "There are, Cunda, these four kinds of life devoted to pleasure, which are conducive to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to tranquility, to realization, to enlightenment, to Nibbana. What are they? First a monk detached from sense-desires, detached from unwholesome mental states, enters and remains in the first jhana...the fourth jhana, which is beyond pleasure and pain, and purified by equanimity and mindfulness." "These are the four kinds of life devoted to pleasure, which are entirely conducive to disenchantment, to cessation, to tranquility, to realization, to enlightenment, to Nibbana. So, if wanderers from other sects should say that the followers of the Sakyan are addicted to these four forms of pleasure seeking, they should be told: "Yes," for they would be speaking correctly about you, they would not be slandering you with false or untrue statements." 25. Then such wanderers might ask: "Well then, those who are given to these four forms of pleasure-seeking - how many fruits, how many benefits can they expect?" And, you should reply: "They can expect four fruits, four benefits. What are they? The first is when a monk by destruction of three fetters has become a Stream-Winner, no more subject to rebirth in lower worlds, firmly established, destined for full enlightenment; the second is when a monk by the complete destruction of three fetters and the reduction of greed, hatred and delusion, has become a Once-Returner, and having returned once more to this world, will put an end to suffering; the third is when a monk, by the destruction of the corruptions in this very life has, by his own knowledge and realization, attained Arahantship, to the deliverance of heart and through wisdom. Such are the four fruits and the four benefits that one given to these four forms of pleasure- seeking can expect." - DN29 from "http://tipitaka.wikia.com/wiki/Pasadika_Sutta" ============= #87797 From: Dieter Möller Date: Fri Jul 4, 2008 10:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: response to hate mail etc - ... Credibility moellerdieter Hi Ken, .. you wrote: 'You are right in saying that I jump to the panna part. That is exactly what I have been trying to tell you all along. The path taught by the Buddha was a path of understanding from beginning to end.' D: the emphasize here is on 'jump' , i.e. neglecting the part of the 3fold samadhi practise/ training, which is providing the supporting ground for Panna / right/perfect understanding accompanied by right thought ( like sila does for samadhi) this 'I have been trying to tell you all along' ;-) Ken: Understanding develops every time it arises. That is the meaning of "practice" in the Buddhist sense. At first there may be only intellectual understanding (pariyatti), but that is nonetheless a function of panna - and panna is the same cetasika that diretly knows nibbana! With practice, the panna of pariyatti develops to function at higher and higher levels (including patipatti and pativedha) until, eventually, it experiences nibbana D: I have some difficulties with your statements, nevertheless we seem to agree that by practise there is a gradual development of panna until perfection (samma ditthi) which means full penetration of the 4 Noble Truth by which ignorance/avijja is abolished . (?) But what now is your understanding of practise ? Ken: Most modern-day Buddhists have been taught to believe that panna develops from the absence of panna. D: I haven't heard this , please quote Ken: Concentration-without-panna (for example) is said to develop into concentration-with-panna. But that is entirely wrong. That is silabbataparamasa. D: when we understand panna to be a gradual development (of penetrating wisdom) , than at least there is a certain stock, not really an absence , isn't it? Attachment for mere rules and rituals does not concern the necessary meditation work.. Ken: Sorry, you've lost me. You seem to be using the terms 'mundane' and 'supramundane' as if they were synonyms for 'conventional' and 'ultimate.' At DSG (as in the Buddhist Dictionary) we use 'mundane' for the Pali word 'lokiya' and 'supramundane' for 'lokuttara' while we use 'conventional' for 'pannatti' and 'ultimate' for 'paramattha.' D: I see that synonym.. the point of concept /pannatti and paramattha/ultimate isn't clear to me up to now.. and remembering a discussion about Ven. Narada's explanation, there is obviously quite some confusion . Moreover I miss evidence from the suttas .. Ken: I'll snip the bit about atomphysics because I can't follow it. But I think you are trying to tell me there are two realities. I, on the other hand, am trying to tell you there is only one reality. There are two ways in which the Buddha described reality (one using conventional language and the other Abhidhamma language), but there is only one reality. D: a pity, you can't follow it because it describes that reality in the micro cosmos is different from that of the macro cosmos.. though there is only one ------------- Ken: (D: > The First Noble Truth doesn't say only : suffering is 5 Khanda attachment.) ------------- I believe the 1st NT does say exactly that. In the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta we read: "In brief, the five aggregates of attachment are suffering." D: repeating: 'doesn't say only ' Ken: I think you will find that "in brief" means "in the ultimate sense." Therefore, we can see that the Buddha's conventional-language description of dukkha (sickness, old age etc) was followed by his Abhidhamma-language description of dukkha (the five khandhas). Two ways of describing it, but only the one truth (the one dukkha)! D: as mentioned before I understand ultimate and supramundane synonym, the Buddha's language directed to lokiya and lokuttara Ken: (D: I think for a fruitful discussion we both need to keep the conventional and the ultimate perspective in mind. The former applies to those in training to become a Noble One, the latter treats the truth from the view/understanding of those having reached the level ( obviously Abhidhamma was proclaimed to those far advanced..) -------------------------------- I don't know where you got that impression. I think it must stem from our different use of those terms (supramundane, conventional etc). But, whatever the cause, there definitely is a breakdown in communication. I hope this post will help to some extent. D: my pre conclusion is due to what I think Abhidhammikas take as being true: the Buddha taught Abhidhamma to his mother, respectively to the devas for 6 months without interruption.. only his first disciple, Sariputta was educated accordingly.. nevertheless I believe that Abhidhamma is suitable only for those rather advanced in the training Ken: (D: > In order that the cetasikas can perform their functions wholesome for the path factors, the mind needs (the 3fold N.P.) training. Nina used once the expression 'habitual tendencies' for cetasika .Our habit (pls compare with persona ) conditioned by ignorant kamma forces /will, ie. avijja - sankhara- .. is just this procedure as explained in the chain of D.O. and our attachment just that what identifies with self: that I am, that is mine etc..------------------------ Sorry, but I still can't follow. And I am trying! :-) D: good.. because habitual tendencies (cetasika) are difficult to change due to the power of avijja- sankhara in the background. It needs practise not just study of the theory .. The (3fold )path training has been mentioned again and again by the Buddha, unfortunately , so I believe, some misinterprete the point of anatta : no one available to do it .. with Metta Dieter #87798 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jul 4, 2008 6:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: response to hate mail etc - ... Credibility upasaka_howard Hi, Dieter (and Ken) - In a message dated 7/4/2008 1:31:43 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, moellerdieter@... writes: Nina used once the expression 'habitual tendencies' for cetasika . ============================= Dieter, do you perhaps mean 'cetana' (or 'sankhara' or 'anusaya') instead of 'cetasika'? With metta, Howard #87799 From: Dieter Möller Date: Fri Jul 4, 2008 11:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: response to hate mail etc - ... Credibility moellerdieter Hi Howard (and Nina), ' Nina used once the expression 'habitual tendencies' for cetasika . ============================= Dieter, do you perhaps mean 'cetana' (or 'sankhara' or 'anusaya') instead of 'cetasika'?' D: I recall writing to Nina appreciating this translation for cetasika ...acc. to my understanding a good and fitting one, especially in respect to get the point of (avijja-) sankhara and sankhara khanda .. do you see problems with this interpretation? with Metta Dieter ..