#93600 From: "szmicio" Date: Tue Dec 16, 2008 8:00 am Subject: Re: In praise of the Mangala Sutta szmicio Dear Phil >Thanks Connie, and Nina and Lukas if that is your name! :) L: You're correct. That's my name. In Ogha-tarana Sutta, the Blessed One said that he crossed over the flood without pushing forward and without staying in place. The deva asked: "But how, dear sir, did you cross over the flood without pushing forward, without staying in place?" And the Blessed One said: "When I pushed forward, I was whirled about. When I stayed in place, I sank. And so I crossed over the flood without pushing forward, without staying in place." He truly understand what is happening in present moment: there are seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling, touching and thinking, just it. The Ogha-tarana Sutta: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn01/sn01.001.than.html My Best Wishes Lukas #93601 From: "sprlrt" Date: Tue Dec 16, 2008 8:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The speed of cittas sprlrt Hi Sarah (Howard), >>Howard: That's right. But the thinking does occur, and often it is based on realities. >A: Just in the first of the many mind door processes that follow a sense door one. .... S: I think we can say that all thinking, directly or indirectly, is based on realities. Without the khandhas, without namas and rupas, there'd be no thinking at all. A: My reply was about the objects of citta, which Howard translated as thinking based on ... S: As for when thinking immediately follows the experiencing of a reality, the first mind-door process directly experiences the characteristic of the same rupa (just experienced through the sense door). A: I agree. S: This is likely to be followed by thinking, A: I'd say, that it is invariably followed by thinking (i.e. "based on" concepts) unless satipatthana arises. S: but there can also be the experience of a reality through the mind door, followed by more thinking. For example, attachment may be experienced as object (with or without awareness, usually without of course), followed by thinking about the story. Any thoughts? A: Only in the first of the many mind door processes that follow the (single) mind door one which has experienced lobha/attachment. Without awareness what is experienced after that is sankhara nimitta, a concept, not a dhamma (imo, that is). Alberto #93602 From: "szmicio" Date: Tue Dec 16, 2008 8:09 am Subject: Re: In praise of the Mangala Sutta szmicio --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "szmicio" wrote: > > Dear Phil > >Thanks Connie, and Nina and Lukas if that is your name! :) > > L: You're correct. That's my name. > > In Ogha-tarana Sutta, the Blessed One said that he crossed over the > flood without pushing forward and without staying in place. > > The deva asked: > "But how, dear sir, did you cross over the flood without pushing > forward, without staying in place?" > And the Blessed One said: > "When I pushed forward, I was whirled about. When I stayed in place, I > sank. And so I crossed over the flood without pushing forward, without > staying in place." > He truly understand what is happening in present moment: there are > seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling, touching and thinking, just it. > > The Ogha-tarana Sutta: > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn01/sn01.001.than.html > > My Best Wishes > Lukas > L: Then Deva said: "[The devata:] At long last I see a brahman, totally unbound, who without pushing forward, without staying in place, has crossed over the entanglements of the world." I think we should deeply consider those words. That's what Ajahn Sujin, our true friend in Dhamma always stress: not to pushing forward, nor staying in place, just understand. Best wishes Lukas #93603 From: TGrand458@... Date: Tue Dec 16, 2008 4:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: On Concepts TGrand458@... Hi Sarah In a message dated 12/16/2008 5:15:12 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Hi TG, --- On Sun, 14/12/08, _TGrand458@..._ (mailto:TGrand458@...) <_TGrand458@..._ (mailto:TGrand458@...) > wrote: S:>>The Buddha is not referring to being skilled in the knowledge of the impermanence or cessation of pencils, purple elephants, people or ph ilosophical fantasies:-) T ............ ......... ......... ......... ......... ......... ......... ...... >TG: As for pencils, purple elephants, people or philosophical fantasies, those are not the particular subjects being discussed. .... S: The particular subject being discussed by us is whether or not concepts are included in the dhatus. I indicated why they aren't. The Buddha's teachings are not for the purpose of developing insight into the above. .................................................... TG: The purpose of the Buddha's teaching is to overcome suffering. Insight is about seeing the afflictedness of conditional phenomena....impermanent, afflicted, nonself. Many Suttas deal with insight directed toward "conventional" topics/objects. The elements and aggregates are the best sources to reflect off of because by doing so, the mind is less liable to be involved in a false fantasy. However, if a "dhamma theory" is overlayed onto the process, that strategy goes out the door. ;-) .......................................................... ... TG:> But on many many many occasions we can see the Buddha teaching about impermanence and dependence of "conventional amalagamations, " the type of which you indicate here. ... S: This is why we have to read the suttas very carefully and consider exactly what is meant. Otherwise, as Scott has been pointing out repeatedly, it's just thinking about ideas of impermanence and dependence. ....................................................... TG: Yes, but too often I find the conclusions of what some think the Suttas mean ... to be things the Suttas never say. Of course that could never happen with you. :-) ..................................................... .... >TG: This Sutta you selected does not support your case, its neutral toward your case. Only a slanted view would leave someone to think it was supportive of a "ultimate realities with their own characteristics" viewpoint. You pick and choose just the Suttas that you want to support your case with, and then often comment way beyond where they go. .... S: You asked for a sutta to indicate where the Buddha said that 'conditioned dhammas' or 'elements' only refer to paramattha dhammas. I re-quoted from the sutta you and Alex had referred us to which indicated that elements are conditioned or the unconditioned (i.e nibbana). I further quoted from a sutta on the khandhas which clearly indicated that the conditioned and impermanent dhammas refer to the 5 khandhas only and not to concepts. .............................................. TG: Oh no no no no no no no. You don't get that. The Sutta does not bring up concepts in the affirmative or negative -- you do. As many of us in here believe, concepts are included in the Five Aggregates under the mental formations heading. .................................................... Next time, perhaps I'll just pass:-) Have a peaceful and wise holiday season, TG. ............................................................. TG: You too Sarah. Bless you. TG OUT #93604 From: TGrand458@... Date: Tue Dec 16, 2008 4:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: On Concepts TGrand458@... Hi Jon In a message dated 12/16/2008 6:11:13 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, jonabbott@... writes: > TG: Here is a copy of some passages I just wrote to Scott. (Written for > Scott.) Maybe it will clarify. Also, the actual post to Scott might help you > see what I am responding to... I'm afraid it doesn't clarify much, because it is an "interpretation" of the suttas, without any textual basis for its particular idiosyncracies. ............................................... TG: It was a direct quote from a Sutta so I don't know what you're talking about. TG OUT #93605 From: TGrand458@... Date: Tue Dec 16, 2008 4:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Similes and Concepts that lead to Arahantship! TGrand458@... Hi Scott Too long and convoluted to bother with. Merry Christmas if I don't see you before. TG OUT #93606 From: "Scott" Date: Tue Dec 16, 2008 10:12 am Subject: [dsg] Re: On Concepts, The All scottduncan2 Dear Herman, Regarding: Me: "...I'm taking a break. Late, dude." Scott: Of course, that should have been 'later, dude' but, given that unwise attention operates faster than the speed of something really fast, the dosa killed you before I even knew about it. ;-/ Something about akusala javana or something. This is known as a parapraxis, in Freudian circles, as I'm sure you are aware. Even mundane psychoanalysis knows about the rapidity and the uncontrollability of unconscious mental process. And so, until we meet again, LATER, dude. Sincerely, Scott. #93607 From: "Scott" Date: Tue Dec 16, 2008 10:14 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Similes and Concepts that lead to Arahantship! scottduncan2 Dear TG, Regarding: TG: "Too long and convoluted to bother with. Merry Christmas if I don't see you before." Scott: No worries, I learned a lot in the process. Best o' the season, man. Sincerely, Scott. #93608 From: "Scott" Date: Tue Dec 16, 2008 10:26 am Subject: Re: Similes and Concepts that lead to Arahantship! scottduncan2 Dear TG, Regarding: Me: "...You refer to the insubstantial constantly morphing precipitates of conditions dynamically flowing in an interrupted quasi-permanent fashion..." Scott: This should have been: "...You refer to the insubstantial constantly morphing precipitates of conditions dynamically flowing in an *uninterrupted* quasi-permanent fashion..." There, that's better. ;-) Sincerely, Scott. #93609 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 16, 2008 11:18 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Re: Series Survey Quote. nilovg Hi James, Op 16-dec-2008, om 2:52 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > James: The purpose of the sutta is clear enough. The Buddha wanted > to refute those who stated that there exists a different reality > than the one we experience through the six senses. In the Buddha's > time, there must have been those who stated that there exists such a > different reality. The Buddha explains that such a philosophy or > view cannot be supported because it is "beyond range". Again, this > sutta has nothing to do with satipatthana or insight. Nina, I know > that you want it to be addressing satipatthana, even non-directly, > but it obviously doesn't. > > "The All" is the six sense doors and their objects. ------- N: People may think that there is another All, but, the Buddha said that there is not, there are just the twelve aayatanas. When he said that did he want others just to believe this, or should they verify the truth for themselves? How to verify the truth? In developing direct understanding of all these realities. How? By awareness of whatever reality appears now. If it is not now, it cannot be directly known, only thought about. Here we see that the Buddha never stopped teaching satipatthana. Nina. #93610 From: "connie" Date: Tue Dec 16, 2008 1:37 pm Subject: nailing down meditation nichiconn dear alex, I thought this related to the "buddhist meditation" question: Vism. viii,152. He now said 'Here, bhikkhus', etc., giving the meaning of that in detail. Herein, here bhikkhus, a bhikkhu means, bhikkhus, in this dispensation a bhikkhu. For this word here signifies the [Buddha's] dispensation as the prerequisite for a person to produce concentration through mindfulness of breathing in all its modes, {39} and it denies that such a state exists in any other dispensation. For this is said: 'Bhikkhus, only here is there an ascetic, here a second ascetic, here a third ascetic, here a fourth ascetic; other dispensations are devoid of ascetics' (M.i,63; A.ii,238). {40} That is why it was said above 'in this dispensation a bhikkhu'. {39}. 'The words "in all its aspects" refer to the sixteen bases; for these are only found in total in this dispensation. When outsiders know mindfulness of breathing, they only know the first four modes' (Pm.257) {40}. '"The ascetic" is a Stream Enterer, the "second ascetic" is a Once-returner, the "third ascetic" is a Non-returner, the "fourth ascetic" is an Arahant' (MA.ii,4). peace, connie #93611 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Dec 16, 2008 2:07 pm Subject: Q. [dsg] Re: Series Survey Quote. jonoabb Hi James > > I understand the ayatanas to be a way of classifying what is to be > > understood by wisdom, what is to be the object of insight. This I > > think becomes apparent from a general look at the suttas of the > > salayatana-samyutta. > > > > Do you think it is a good idea to evaluate suttas based on > generalizations? Do you think that's what I was saying I did? ;-)) Jon #93612 From: "Scott" Date: Tue Dec 16, 2008 2:26 pm Subject: Re: On Concepts, The All scottduncan2 Dear Howard, Regarding: Me: "You cannot will saddhaa to arise in you." H: "I see that as uncontestably true. However, what I also see as true is that faith (or, better, confidence) in particular teachings arises when observing the way things are and acting according to the teachings results in what the teachings predict. In particular, testing out (ehipassiko) as regards the Dhamma does lead to saddha. At least it has for me." Scott: Visuddhimagga VII 82: "[Inviting of inspection] it is worthy of an invitation to inspect (ehipassa-vidhi) given thus: 'Come and see this Dhamma' (ehi passa ima.m dhamma.m), thus it is 'inviting of inspection' (ehipassika). But why is it worthy of this invitation? Because it is found and because of its purity. For if a man has said that there is money or gold in an empty fist, he cannot say 'Come and see it'. Why not? Because it is not found. And, on the other hand, while dung or or urine may well be found, a man cannot, for the purpose of cheering the mind and exhibiting beauty say, 'Come and see this'; on the contrary, they may have to be covered up with grass and leaves. Why? Because of their impurity. But this ninefold supramundane Dhamma is actually found as such in its individual essence, and it is as pure as the moon's full disk in a cloudless sky, as a gem of pure water on bleached cloth. Consequently, it is worthy of invitation to inspect since it is found to be pure, thus it is inviting of inspection." Scott: This makes me think of how Nibbaana, the Unconditioned, causes naama to bend unto it and how this is such an impersonal process that one couldn't possibly wilfully 'act according to the teachings' in order to put them to the test when conditions to do so are absent. What happens to confidence or faith when the Path and Fruit arise? Faith and wisdom balance each other out - faith being rooted in understanding. Sincerely, Scott. #93613 From: "connie" Date: Tue Dec 16, 2008 2:41 pm Subject: nailing down people nichiconn dear alex, thanks for your patience with my quotes. Here is one from Suttanipaata - Vaase.t.tha: 55. What is called 'Name' or 'Tribe,' in the world, arises from usage only. It is adopted here and there by common consent. 56. It comes from long and uninterrupted usage, and from the false belief of the ignorant. (Hence) the ignorant assert - "that a Brahman is such from birth". I think that 'long and uninterrupted usage' 'by common consent' keeps the 'Name' alive. That is, as long as 'the false belief of the ignorant' that gave rise to it continues to support it, it remains in existence, spanning aeons. peace, connie #93614 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Tue Dec 16, 2008 3:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: On Concepts, The All egberdina Hi Scott, 2008/12/17 Scott : > Dear Herman, > > H: "My turn to ask you about you. What gives with the unbridled > conviction that you approximate a true Buddhist?" > > Scott: You are becoming testy, restive, and apparently bored, Herman > (and this observation is a function of unwise attention, is, therefore > a projection of mine, and so, it is I who am becoming testy, restive, > and bored with you). Yes, you are projecting. And even though you attempt to hide behind your theory and your faith, you reveal yourself again and again as having a solid foundation for being the self-appointed Inquisitor of a select few here at dsg.(Howard, TG, moi, and James in the days when you could deign to have a conversation with him). I don't have a problem with that delusion, we all are in the same boat despite our differences and delusions. But, honestly, I didn't think my question was inappropriate, given that you asked me to reveal what you thought to be my hidden stance on Buddhism. I also thought that I was quite open and revealing in my unhesitating answer. > I'm sorry to have, yet again, failed to engage you in useful > discourse. To be fair, though, I find you have failed to engage me. It is as you said to TG, I have learnt much in the discussion. I am sorry you didn't. Cheers Herman #93615 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Tue Dec 16, 2008 3:13 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: On Concepts, The All egberdina Hi Scott, 2008/12/17 Scott : > Dear Herman, > > Regarding: > > H: "...I do not understand what role 'there is nothing to be done' has > in a paragraph about faith. Is faith like a large birth mark on your > penis, something you are born with and put up with?" > > Scott: You cannot will saddha to arise in you. Yes, but you can will it to cease. And when you are freed of your faith, then you can see things as they are. You may or may not like this little ditty. Desire is when you do what you want; Will is when you can do what you do not want. P. D. Ouspensky Cheers Herman #93616 From: "connie" Date: Tue Dec 16, 2008 3:20 pm Subject: oceans of time? nichiconn dear phil, note below on parittas; otherwise, the whole excerpt is pretty shattering: << vism (ch.xiii) [414] thus with details and particulars he recollects his manifold past life' (D.i,81). 28. Herein, one birth is the continuity of aggregates included in a single becoming starting with rebirth-linking and ending with death. So too with two births, and the rest. But in the case of many aeons of world contraction, etc., it should be understood that the aeon of world contraction is an aeon of diminution and the aeon of world expansion is an 29. aeon of increase. Herein, what supersedes the contraction is included in the contraction since it is rooted in it; and so too what supersedes the expansion is included in the expansion. This being so, it includes what is stated thus, 'Bhikkhus, there are four incalculables of the aeon. What four? The contraction, what supersedes the contraction, the expansion, and what supersedes the expansion' (A.ii,142 abbreviated). 30. Herein, there are three kinds of contraction: contraction due to water, contraction due to fire, and contraction due to air (see M.Sutta 28). Also there are three limits to the contraction: the Aabhassara (Streaming-radiance) Brahmaa World, that of the Subhaki.nha (Refulgent-glory), and that of the Vehapphala (Great-fruit). When the aeon contracts owing to fire, all below the Aabhassara [Brahmaa World] is burnt up by fires. When it contracts owing to water, it is all dissolved by water up to the Subhaki.nha [Brahmaa World]. When it contracts owing to air, it is all demolished by wind up to the Vehapphala [Brahmaa World]. 31. In breadth it is always one of the Buddha fields that is destroyed. For the Buddha fields are of three kinds, that is, the field of birth, the field of authority, and the field of scope. Herein, the field of birth is limited by the ten thousand world-spheres that quaked on the Perfect One's taking rebirth-linking, and so on. The field of authority is limited by the hundred thousand million world-spheres where the following safeguards (paritta) are efficacious, that is, the Ratana Sutta (Sn.p.39), the Khandha Paritta (Vin.ii,109; A.ii,72), the Dhajagga Paritta (S.i,218), the Aa.taanaa.tiya Paritta (D.iii,194), and the Mora Paritta (Jaa.ii,33). The field of scope is boundless, immeasurable: 'As far as he wishes' (A.i,228) it is said. The Perfect One knows anything anywhere that he wishes. So one of these three Buddha fields, that is to say, the field of authority is destroyed. But when that is being destroyed, the field of birth also gets destroyed. And that happens simultaneously; and when it is reconstituted, that happens simultaneously (cf.MA.iv,114). >> just waving, connie #93617 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Tue Dec 16, 2008 3:59 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: how to view the self egberdina Hi Alberto, 2008/12/16 sprlrt : > Hi Herman > > H: As it stands, most of what you have dispensed is pure definition. > > A: That's right > > H: By that I mean that it lacks any empirical content, it doesn't > refer to anything knowable in the real world you and I share. > > A: The worlds of concepts, one for each of us. > Language is a means of exchange par excellence because language is common to us all. So each time someone expresses some idea like "everyone lives in their own world", the very fact that they express the idea refutes the idea, it is self-defeating. Can you not see that all communicating is predicated on a shared / common reality? Cheers Herman #93618 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Dec 16, 2008 11:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: On Concepts, The All upasaka_howard Hi, Scott - I'm afraid I'm not following you. In a message dated 12/16/2008 5:26:49 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, scduncan@... writes: Scott: Visuddhimagga VII 82: "[Inviting of inspection] it is worthy of an invitation to inspect (ehipassa-vidhi) given thus: 'Come and see this Dhamma' (ehi passa ima.m dhamma.m), thus it is 'inviting of inspection' (ehipassika). But why is it worthy of this invitation? Because it is found and because of its purity. For if a man has said that there is money or gold in an empty fist, he cannot say 'Come and see it'. Why not? Because it is not found. And, on the other hand, while dung or or urine may well be found, a man cannot, for the purpose of cheering the mind and exhibiting beauty say, 'Come and see this'; on the contrary, they may have to be covered up with grass and leaves. Why? Because of their impurity. But this ninefold supramundane Dhamma is actually found as such in its individual essence, and it is as pure as the moon's full disk in a cloudless sky, as a gem of pure water on bleached cloth. Consequently, it is worthy of invitation to inspect since it is found to be pure, thus it is inviting of inspection." ---------------------------------------------- Howard: The foregoing is an assertion of Buddhaghosa's that investigating the Dhamma does instill confidence, because there is really something to it. I also believe that is so, but that is because I have investigated, continue to, and it has produced confidence. ---------------------------------------------- Scott: This makes me think of how Nibbaana, the Unconditioned, causes naama to bend unto it and how this is such an impersonal process that one couldn't possibly wilfully 'act according to the teachings' in order to put them to the test when conditions to do so are absent. --------------------------------------------------- Howard: I haven't a clue of what you mean by this. Can you reformulate? ------------------------------------------------ What happens to confidence or faith when the Path and Fruit arise? ----------------------------------------------- Howard: That's clear, isn't it? --------------------------------------------- Faith and wisdom balance each other out - faith being rooted in understanding. -------------------------------------------- Howard: That is why I prefer to say "confidence" rather than "faith." ============================ #93619 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Dec 16, 2008 4:31 pm Subject: Q. [dsg] Re: Series Survey Quote. buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > ------- > N: People may think that there is another All, but, the Buddha said > that there is not, there are just the twelve aayatanas. > When he said that did he want others just to believe this, or should > they verify the truth for themselves? How to verify the truth? In > developing direct understanding of all these realities. > How? By awareness of whatever reality appears now. If it is not now, > it cannot be directly known, only thought about. > Here we see that the Buddha never stopped teaching satipatthana. James: This is a very interesting train of thought and argument, but it is flawed. First of all, and most importantly, there is nothing unique or monumental about the Buddha describing "The All" as the six senses and their objects. That is not a teaching unique to a Buddha and it is really no surprise to anyone. Even a five year old knows that reality is that which we experience. What else could it be? As far as I am concerned, the Buddha was simply stating the obvious. (But the Buddha had to state the obvious because some people, like you for example, try to state that reality is something different than what we perceive.) So, unless you can show me how the Buddha's teaching of "The All" is unique to a Buddha or even unique to his time, then your entire argument falls apart. Metta, James #93620 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Dec 16, 2008 4:38 pm Subject: Q. [dsg] Re: Series Survey Quote. buddhatrue Hi Jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi James > > > > I understand the ayatanas to be a way of classifying what is to > be > > > understood by wisdom, what is to be the object of insight. This > I > > > think becomes apparent from a general look at the suttas of the > > > salayatana-samyutta. > > > > > > > Do you think it is a good idea to evaluate suttas based on > > generalizations? > > Do you think that's what I was saying I did? ;-)) James: I don't know if you were admitting that, but that is what you did. You said that this sutta is about satipatthana because it is from a section of suttas all about satipatthana- that is a generalization. Generalization Gen`er*al*i*za"tion\, n. [Cf. F. g['e]n['e]ralisation.] 1. The act or process of generalizing; the act of bringing individuals or particulars under a genus or class; deduction of a general principle from particulars. However, you need to point out something within the sutta itself to prove it is about satipatthana, not by the company it keeps. :-) Metta, James #93621 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Dec 16, 2008 1:11 pm Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Re: Series Survey Quote. upasaka_howard Hi, James (and Nina) - In a message dated 12/16/2008 7:31:29 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@... writes: Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > ------- > N: People may think that there is another All, but, the Buddha said > that there is not, there are just the twelve aayatanas. > When he said that did he want others just to believe this, or should > they verify the truth for themselves? How to verify the truth? In > developing direct understanding of all these realities. > How? By awareness of whatever reality appears now. If it is not now, > it cannot be directly known, only thought about. > Here we see that the Buddha never stopped teaching satipatthana. James: This is a very interesting train of thought and argument, but it is flawed. First of all, and most importantly, there is nothing unique or monumental about the Buddha describing "The All" as the six senses and their objects. That is not a teaching unique to a Buddha and it is really no surprise to anyone. Even a five year old knows that reality is that which we experience. What else could it be? As far as I am concerned, the Buddha was simply stating the obvious. (But the Buddha had to state the obvious because some people, like you for example, try to state that reality is something different than what we perceive.) So, unless you can show me how the Buddha's teaching of "The All" is unique to a Buddha or even unique to his time, then your entire argument falls apart. Metta, James =============================== Well, I would suppose that in giving this teaching, the Buddha was pointing out that there is no Atman/Brahman, no Universal Soul - no substance or entity that is noumenon underlying phenomenal reality, and he gave the teaching because it points one in the direction of non-grasping and freedom. It is my belief that this teaching was *not* the received wisdom of the time, circa 500 BCE. With metta, Howard #93622 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Tue Dec 16, 2008 7:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: how to view the self egberdina Hi Howard, 2008/12/16 : > Hi, Herman - > > Howard: > What about it? That can be interpreted to mean that unpleasant dhammas > arise as the result of unwholesome kamma etc. This is also neutral as to > whether affective feel is intrinsic to the dhamma or mentally imposed. I assume you must believe that external phenomena are the result of kamma. > "Now there comes a time, friends, when the external liquid property is > provoked and washes away village, town, city, district, & country. > There comes a time when the water in the great ocean drops down one > hundred leagues, two hundred... three hundred... four hundred... five > hundred... six hundred... seven hundred leagues. There comes a time > when the water in the great ocean stands seven palm-trees deep, six... > five... four... three... two palm-trees deep, one palm-tree deep. > There comes a time when the water in the great ocean stands seven > fathoms deep, six... five... four... three... two fathoms deep, one > fathom deep. There comes a time when the water in the great ocean > stands half a fathom deep, hip-deep, knee-deep, ankle deep. There > comes a time when the water in the great ocean is not even the depth > of the first joint of a finger. People will have various feelings when their houses and villages are washed away, but personally I do not think floods are the result of kamma. I am happy to leave it if you are. Cheers Herman #93623 From: "Scott" Date: Tue Dec 16, 2008 7:32 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: On Concepts, The All scottduncan2 Dear Howard, Regarding: H: "I'm afraid I'm not following you..." Scott: No worries, Howard. Sincerely, Scott. #93624 From: "Scott" Date: Tue Dec 16, 2008 7:42 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: On Concepts, The All scottduncan2 Dear Herman, Regarding: H: "...you reveal yourself again and again as having a solid foundation for being the self-appointed Inquisitor of a select few here at dsg.(Howard, TG, moi, and James in the days when you could deign to have a conversation with him). I don't have a problem with that delusion, we all are in the same boat despite our differences and delusions. But, honestly, I didn't think my question was inappropriate, given that you asked me to reveal what you thought to be my hidden stance on Buddhism. I also thought that I was quite open and revealing in my unhesitating answer..." Scott: Fair enough, Herman. Of course we're in the same boat. All of you guys are controversialists vis-a-vis the stated aims of the list, and you all know it, and so should expect a little controversy, don't you think? You seek it out and you certainly all seem happy to dish it out. I don't mind it. I learn from it, too. Its fine - I like to discuss things in a vigourous fashion, as do you. Aphoristically, if you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen; or don't dish it out if you can't take it, and all that. ;-) Did you wish to discuss your stance on 'Buddhism' further? I'm sorry I didn't express enough appreciation for your reply. I just feel that those sorts of things are really not to debate about - to each his or her own. Sincerely, Scott. #93625 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Dec 16, 2008 8:01 pm Subject: Q. [dsg] Re: Series Survey Quote. buddhatrue Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > =============================== > Well, I would suppose that in giving this teaching, the Buddha was > pointing out that there is no Atman/Brahman, no Universal Soul - no substance or > entity that is noumenon underlying phenomenal reality, and he gave the > teaching because it points one in the direction of non-grasping and freedom. It is > my belief that this teaching was *not* the received wisdom of the time, circa > 500 BCE. James: I wouldn't go that far. People can still take the six sense doors and their objects for the self. Hearing this sutta alone wouldn't teach anything about anatta. When the Buddha stated that "The All" is the six sense doors and their objects, people are still automatically going to posit "a self" somewhere in the list: be it the body, or consciousness, or sense objects, or all of the above. Personally, I think that the sense doors and their objects were common knowledge during the Buddha's time. The Buddha uses that paradigm to explain a great many things, to many different audiences, and they all seem to understand him. Howard, I teach the six sense doors and their objects to elementary school kids! We learn what you can see, taste, smell, hear, touch, etc. (now, I don't really teach consciousness LOL!). Metta, James Metta, James #93626 From: "connie" Date: Tue Dec 16, 2008 9:13 pm Subject: Re: In praise of the Mangala Sutta nichiconn dear absent phil, P: I am aware of the danger of sakkaya-ditthi but I am aware of greater dangers as well. Last word to you. c: Curious as to what those might be, but it might be a blessing that you're not around to ask. Instead of either of our last words on this subject, then, let's have these: << vism xiii, 89. Wrong in their views: having distorted vision. Acquirers of kamma due to wrong view: those who have kamma of the various kinds acquired through wrong view, and also, those who incite others to bodily kamma, etc., rooted in wrong view. And here, though reviling of Noble Ones has already been included by the mention of verbal misconduct, and though wrong view has already been included by the mention of mental misconduct, it may be understood, nevertheless, that the two are mentioned again in order to emphasize their great 90. reprehensibility. Reviling Noble Ones is greatly reprehensible because of its resemblance to kamma with immediate result. For this is said 'Saariputta, just as a bhikkhu possessing virtuous conduct, concentration and understanding could here and now attain final knowledge, so it is in this case, I say: if he does not abandon such talk and such thoughts and renounce such views, he will find himself in hell as surely as if he had been carried off and put there' (M.i,71). [427]. And there is nothing more reprehensible than wrong view, according as it is said 'Bhikkhus, I do not see any one thing so reprehensible as wrong view' (A.i,33). >> peace, connie #93627 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Tue Dec 16, 2008 9:22 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: On the chemical nature of consciousness egberdina Hi Howard, 2008/12/15 : > Hi, Herman (and Scott) - > > ------------------------------------------- > Howard: > It seems to me that overwhelmingly throughout the suttas, the Buddha > makes mind preeminent. This is true especially from the fundamental perspective > that the entire goal of the Dhamma is liberating the mind, freeing it from > defilements and suffering. It is mind that is cultivated by Dhamma practice, > and mind that is freed, not body. > ------------------------------------------ I've had a good long think over this, and I'm going to disagree with your overall conclusion. I do not believe that the suttas have the goal of the Dhamma as being the liberation of the mind from defilements and suffering. I accept that there will be one or two suttas which will add enormous weight to your case. But what I understand from the suttas is that "The holy life is lived under the Blessed One, my friend, for the sake of total Unbinding through lack of clinging." (MN24) I do not believe that the suttas teach that it is possible for there to be a mind free from dukkha. Rather, all phenomena are taught, at every turn of the way, to be inherently dukkha. Certainly, the mind receives lots of attention in the suttas. But I think that is because mind is the domain of suffering, and it is the ending of suffering that is preeminent. I do not understand the goal of the Dhamma to be the liberation of the mind, but liberation from the mind ie cessation. Cheers Herman #93628 From: "Phil" Date: Tue Dec 16, 2008 8:02 pm Subject: Re: In praise of the Mangala Sutta philofillet Hi Lukas You wrote: > In Ogha-tarana Sutta, the Blessed One said that he crossed over the > flood without pushing forward and without staying in place. > > The deva asked: > "But how, dear sir, did you cross over the flood without pushing > forward, without staying in place?" > And the Blessed One said: > "When I pushed forward, I was whirled about. When I stayed in place, I > sank. And so I crossed over the flood without pushing forward, without > staying in place." > He truly understand what is happening in present moment: there are > seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling, touching and thinking, just it. Thanks! I love that passage and I think the fact that it opens Samyutta Nikaya means that we should place importance on reflecting on it. But let's not forget it's the Buddha, the subtle state indicated in this passage is that of the enlightened person, in my opinion. In another sutta, in Anguttara Nikaya, I think, there is a sutta that asks "and who is the one who goes against the stream, he is the one who lives the holy life, sighing and in tears" etc. I don't remember the exact words. (If someone could provide the link it would be helpful.) But the gist is that going against the stream of the defilements is hard work. So we can reflect on both suttas and where we stand with respect to the defilements. Are we often bowled over and washed away by hate and greed? If yes, something must be done about it. If "we" (of course cittas do the work) don't do something about it, we risk failing to fulfill the great blessing we have in this human birth! And if we are often washed away by greed and hatred, the appealing idea of moments of understanding seeing, hearing, tasting etc will be all for moot. There is no understanding of seeing, hearing, tasting etc in the lower realms of rebirth! (At least I think not, if I recall correctly - rebirth citta in those realms cannot be accompanied by panna.) Anyways, up until about two years ago I saw things just like you do and I might see things like that again someday! Nice to have a first exchange with you, Lukas. I'll leave the last word to you. Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "szmicio" wrote: >> > > The Ogha-tarana Sutta: > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn01/sn01.001.than.html > > My Best Wishes > Lukas > #93629 From: "Phil" Date: Tue Dec 16, 2008 8:25 pm Subject: Re: oceans of time? philofillet Hi Connie > > dear phil, > note below on parittas; otherwise, the whole excerpt is pretty shattering: (snip) > Herein, the field of birth is limited by the ten thousand world- spheres that quaked on the Perfect One's taking rebirth-linking, and so on. The field of authority is limited by the hundred thousand million world-spheres where the following safeguards (paritta) are efficacious, that is, the Ratana Sutta (Sn.p.39), the Khandha Paritta (Vin.ii,109; A.ii,72), the Dhajagga Paritta (S.i,218), the Aa.taanaa.tiya Paritta (D.iii,194), and the Mora Paritta (Jaa.ii,33). The field of scope is boundless, immeasurable: 'As far as he wishes' (A.i,228) it is said. The Perfect One knows anything anywhere that he wishes. So one of these three Buddha fields, that is to say, the field of authority is destroyed. But when that is being destroyed, the field of birth also gets destroyed. And that happens simultaneously; and when it is reconstituted, that happens simultaneously (cf.MA.iv,114). Ouch! I'm afraid I lost my library card so I am just not tapping into anything but my own hungry interpretations these days. For example, I love this, from the Mangala. Let's see if I can remember the Pali - I have memorized some of it because of the deliciousness of the sound as well as the comfort/encouragement. patirupa desa vaaso ca pubbe ca kata punnataa atta samma panidi ca etam mangalan uttaman to live in a suitable place to have done meritous deeds in the past to behave properly in mind and body that is the greatest blessing. I just wrote that English out of remembering the gist. I can't remember for sure what "atta samma panidi ca" means but I know it has to do with resolving to have virtuous behaviour. For me, the meaning of the above it that we should be very grateful to have this human birth and responsiveness to the Buddha's teaching and physical conditions to practice (to live in a suitable place) and this has happened because of meritous deeds in past lives. We are all very worthy people to be here doing this. And do we squander this blessing or fulfill it? If we "behave properly in body and mind" we work towards fulfilling the great blessing of our human birth and develop even better potential. So I am taking these parittas in a pretty shallow way, with no need for deeper commentaries than BB's simple explanation. But I'm sure I'll get my library card back someday! (What I've written here doesn't really have to do with what you posted, does it? Sorry. Just wanted to get it down because I LOVE THE MANGALAM SUTTA. (Alex doesn't shout anymore so I thought I would! :) Metta, Phil #93630 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Tue Dec 16, 2008 9:38 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: On Concepts, The All egberdina Hi Scott, 2008/12/17 Scott : > Dear Herman, > > > Scott: Fair enough, Herman. Of course we're in the same boat. All of > you guys are controversialists vis-a-vis the stated aims of the list, > and you all know it, and so should expect a little controversy, don't > you think? > > You seek it out and you certainly all seem happy to dish it out. I > don't mind it. I learn from it, too. Its fine - I like to discuss > things in a vigourous fashion, as do you. Aphoristically, if you > can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen; or don't dish it out if > you can't take it, and all that. ;-) I agree with you. I certainly have no aversion to a bit of banter :-) > > Did you wish to discuss your stance on 'Buddhism' further? I'm sorry > I didn't express enough appreciation for your reply. I just feel that > those sorts of things are really not to debate about - to each his or > her own. > Seeing as you mention the stated aims of the list, do you believe they reflect the aims of Buddhism? Is the ultimate goal of Buddhism to develop precise understanding of dhammas (the 'realities' of the present moment)? If you are inclined to answer, would you please do so in the thread on the chemical nature of consciousness, seeing as the same question is being dealt with there? Cheers Herman #93631 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Dec 16, 2008 8:56 pm Subject: Delayed Effects of Mixed Kamma! bhikkhu0 Friends: The Effects caused by Action (Kamma) is delayed as a Sown Seed! The Blessed Buddha once explained: Regarding the effects of actions, Ananda, as to the person here who avoids all killing of any living being, who avoids all stealing of what is not given, who avoids any misconduct in sensual pleasures, who avoids all false speech, divisive speech, aggressive speech, and all idle & empty gossip, who is neither envious, nor jealous, is good-willed, and who is of right view, yet who at the breakup of the body, after death, is reborn in a state of deprivation, a dreadful destination, in the painful purgatory, or even in the hells: Either earlier - prior to this - such one also did evil actions to be felt as painful, or later - after this - such one did evil actions to be felt as pain, or at moment of death such one entered into & maintained wrong views! Because of one or more of these, right after death, such one is reborn in a bad state of deprivation, a dreadful destination, in the painful purgatory, or even in the hells. But since such one also - here & now - has been one who avoids all killing of any living being, who avoids taking anything what is not given, who avoids all misconduct in sensual pleasures, who avoids all false speech, divisive speech, aggressive speech, & all idle & empty gossip, who is neither envious, nor jealous, who is of good will, & who holds right views, such one will experience the pleasant results of that good behaviour, either here and now, or in the next rebirth, or in some subsequent later existence... Comments: Behaviour (kamma) is almost always mixed: Sometimes good, sometimes bad! The later effects are therefore similarly mixed: Sometimes pleasure, sometimes pain... Good begets good and dilutes & delays evil. Evil begets evil and dilutes & delays good! Source: The Moderate speeches of the Buddha: The great speech on Action. MN 136 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=25072X Full Text: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn136.html A figure illustrating the delayed, overlapping & interfering result of mixed kamma: <...> Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest * Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka :-) http://What-Buddha-Said.net Delayed Effects of Mixed Kamma! #93632 From: "sprlrt" Date: Tue Dec 16, 2008 11:12 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: how to view the self sprlrt Hi Herman, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > > Hi Alberto, > > 2008/12/16 sprlrt : > > Hi Herman > > > > H: As it stands, most of what you have dispensed is pure definition. > > > > A: That's right > > > > H: By that I mean that it lacks any empirical content, it doesn't > > refer to anything knowable in the real world you and I share. > > > > A: The worlds of concepts, one for each of us. > > > > Language is a means of exchange par excellence because language is > common to us all. So each time someone expresses some idea like > "everyone lives in their own world", the very fact that they express > the idea refutes the idea, it is self-defeating. Can you not see that > all communicating is predicated on a shared / common reality? > > Cheers > > > Herman > I think that we'll have to dig a bit deeper than that to find the dhammas and get some relief from concepts. Alberto #93633 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 17, 2008 3:14 am Subject: Lodewijk's Diary, no 4. nilovg Dear friends, L: In the European Community meeting I had a stupid quarrel, yelling. In the afternoon I walked out of a meeting since they just babbled for a long time. Papa is happy to be back home after his operation. --------- N: When is a concept such as world, house, human, the object of citta and when a paramattha dhamma? A paramattha dhamma is the object when there is only colour, no thoughts about it; only sound, no thoughts about it; only flavour, no thoughts about it. These are rupas, no things, no person. Seeing is a paramattha dhamma, a citta that experiences colour, a kind of rupa. Seeing does not think, it only sees. Hearing does not think, it only hears. We think of possessions, a house, etc. but these are only concepts citta thinks of. When that citta falls away, these concepts are no more. There are six worlds, and these cannot be mixed. We have to learn to experience objects through each of the six doors separately. Kh Sujin gains profit even from a loss, she said. The sotaapanna experiences disagreeable objects, but in knowing that such experiences are just vipaaka there is less disturbance. ****** Nina. #93634 From: "szmicio" Date: Wed Dec 17, 2008 3:33 am Subject: Re: In praise of the Mangala Sutta szmicio > Anyways, up until about two years ago I saw things just like you > do and I might see things like that again someday! Nice to have a > first exchange with you, Lukas. I'll leave the last word to you. L: Nice to meet you,Phil. Actually I have nothing more to add. My Best Wishes Lukas #93635 From: "szmicio" Date: Wed Dec 17, 2008 3:56 am Subject: Re: Lodewijk's Diary, no 4. szmicio Dear Nina --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear friends, > > L: In the European Community meeting I had a stupid quarrel, yelling. > In the afternoon I walked out of a meeting since they just babbled > for a long time. Papa is happy to be back home after his operation. > > --------- > > N: When is a concept such as world, house, human, the object of citta > and when a paramattha dhamma? A paramattha dhamma is the object when > there is only colour, no thoughts about it; only sound, no thoughts > about it; only flavour, no thoughts about it. These are rupas, no > things, no person. Seeing is a paramattha dhamma, a citta that > experiences colour, a kind of rupa. Seeing does not think, it only > sees. Hearing does not think, it only hears. L: Is it good to know that we cannot induce such understanding? Is it good to know, there is no "person", when akusala arises? I generally think a lot about "my akusala" and have regrets about it. But isn't it just thinking? We usually think about ourselfs, that we are such and such, we should be polite and generous, but ist it just thinking? thinking with akusala? The reality, which happens now? Good to know? Best Wishes Lukas #93636 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 17, 2008 7:31 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Re: Series Survey Quote. nilovg Dear James, What you say is to the point and I always admire your intelligent style of writing and bringing up things that are worth considering more. As to even a child... very good argument, here we come to the essence. Op 17-dec-2008, om 1:31 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > This is a very interesting train of thought and argument, but it > is flawed. First of all, and most importantly, there is nothing unique > or monumental about the Buddha describing "The All" as the six senses > and their objects. That is not a teaching unique to a Buddha and it is > really no surprise to anyone. Even a five year old knows that reality > is that which we experience. What else could it be? ------ N: It is unique that he taught these realities as being without a self, not my visible object, my seeing. But this can only be understood when awareness, sati, arises by its own conditions, not a self who directs it, and if sati, not you, can be aware directly of seeing or visible object. Just in that way there can be a beginning understanding which knows (without thinking) seeing as only a dhamma, only a reality that has arisen because of its own conditions. In other suttas the Buddha showed conditions: because of eye and visible object seeing arises. We need to look at other suttas as well, we have to see the context. For the arising of sati by its own conditions, we have to remember that listening and considering of all that is real are a help for the arising of sati. We have to know the difference between the moments of sati and the moments that there is only thinking of realities, of the 'story' of realities. ---------- > J: As far as I am > concerned, the Buddha was simply stating the obvious. (But the Buddha > had to state the obvious because some people, like you for example, > try > to state that reality is something different than what we perceive.) ------ N: We used to perceive realities with ignorance and wrong view, we took them all for self. We have to carefully consider each word of the suttas, I think. ------- > > J:So, unless you can show me how the Buddha's teaching of "The All" is > unique to a Buddha or even unique to his time, then your entire > argument falls apart. -------- N: Sutta reading is not easy, the words seem so simple but they are deep in meaning. When superficially reading, we may think: everybody can know this. But we have to look more carefully to understand the truth. -------- J to Howard: Hearing this sutta alone wouldn't teach anything about anatta. When the Buddha stated that "The All" is the six sense doors and their objects, people are still automatically going to posit "a self" somewhere in the list: be it the body, or consciousness, or sense objects, or all of the above. ------- N: Well said, James, this happens very often. People do that because of ignorance and wrong view, accumulated for aeons. Important to know when one is doing this. Good you remind of this. The Buddha was unique, teaching anatta after he had realized the truth of all realities at his enlightenment. No other religion teaches anatta. -------- J: Personally, I think that the sense doors and their objects were common knowledge during the Buddha's time. The Buddha uses that paradigm to explain a great many things, to many different audiences, and they all seem to understand him. Howard, I teach the six sense doors and their objects to elementary school kids! We learn what you can see, taste, smell, hear, touch, etc. ------ N: This is very interesting, I wonder how the kids react. Perhaps you can help them seeing conditions for all these experiences. You can help them to understand that not a person is seeing or hearing, only conditioned phenomena which are mental and physical. ******* Nina. #93637 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Dec 17, 2008 4:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: how to view the self upasaka_howard Hi, Herman - In a message dated 12/16/2008 10:26:18 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, hhofmeister@... writes: Hi Howard, 2008/12/16 : > Hi, Herman - > > Howard: > What about it? That can be interpreted to mean that unpleasant dhammas > arise as the result of unwholesome kamma etc. This is also neutral as to > whether affective feel is intrinsic to the dhamma or mentally imposed. I assume you must believe that external phenomena are the result of kamma. --------------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't believe in external phenomena in the objective sense that you are expressing. I'm an "inter-subjectivist" rather than an "objectivist." I believe that what are the particular phenomena arising in "my" mind stream is strongly conditioned by my kamma - usually more strongly than by the actions of others or other factors. What arises as experience for me does often correspond to and be quite similar to that of some other folks, yet it differs in various ways (for example affective feel) even though we speak of observing "the same things." ------------------------------------------------------- > "Now there comes a time, friends, when the external liquid property is > provoked and washes away village, town, city, district, & country. > There comes a time when the water in the great ocean drops down one > hundred leagues, two hundred... three hundred... four hundred... five > hundred... six hundred... seven hundred leagues. There comes a time > when the water in the great ocean stands seven palm-trees deep, six... > five... four... three... two palm-trees deep, one palm-tree deep. > There comes a time when the water in the great ocean stands seven > fathoms deep, six... five... four... three... two fathoms deep, one > fathom deep. There comes a time when the water in the great ocean > stands half a fathom deep, hip-deep, knee-deep, ankle deep. There > comes a time when the water in the great ocean is not even the depth > of the first joint of a finger. People will have various feelings when their houses and villages are washed away, but personally I do not think floods are the result of kamma. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: I view all experience as due to the kamma of a multitude of sentient beings, with one's own kamma having most intimate, though far from exclusive, effect on oneself. As I view it, all so called "external" events and objects (such as floods, plane trips, mountains & forests, and performances by stand-up comedians) reduce to experience and are entirely the result of the combined kamma of sentient beings, with related kammic histories typically resulting in related experiences. --------------------------------------------------- I am happy to leave it if you are. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Sure, why not! :-) ----------------------------------------------- Cheers Herman =========================== With metta, Howard #93638 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Dec 17, 2008 4:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: On Concepts, The All upasaka_howard Hi, Scott - In a message dated 12/16/2008 10:32:40 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, scduncan@... writes: Dear Howard, Regarding: H: "I'm afraid I'm not following you..." Scott: No worries, Howard. Sincerely, Scott. ======================== :-) With metta, Howard #93639 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Dec 17, 2008 5:24 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Re: Series Survey Quote. upasaka_howard Hi, James - In a message dated 12/16/2008 11:01:23 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@... writes: Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > =============================== > Well, I would suppose that in giving this teaching, the Buddha was > pointing out that there is no Atman/Brahman, no Universal Soul - no substance or > entity that is noumenon underlying phenomenal reality, and he gave the > teaching because it points one in the direction of non-grasping and freedom. It is > my belief that this teaching was *not* the received wisdom of the time, circa > 500 BCE. James: I wouldn't go that far. People can still take the six sense doors and their objects for the self. Hearing this sutta alone wouldn't teach anything about anatta. When the Buddha stated that "The All" is the six sense doors and their objects, people are still automatically going to posit "a self" somewhere in the list: be it the body, or consciousness, or sense objects, or all of the above. ----------------------------------------------- Howard Well, sure - we're damn near incorrigible! ;-)) The classical Hindu/Vedantist stance, though, was to take Brahman as sole reality and to identify the alleged Self of a person, the Atman, with that universal Self (capitalization intentional). And this Brahman was alleged to be something beyond "the all". There are, contradictorally on the surface, Buddhist suttas that also accept nibbana as beyond the all! In MN 49 the Buddha say the following to Baka Brahma: - - - - - - - - - - "'Having directly known the all as the all,_8_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.049.than.html#n-8) and having directly known the extent of what has not been experienced through the allness of the all, I wasn't the all, I wasn't in the all, I wasn't coming forth from the all, I wasn't "The all is mine." I didn't affirm the all. Thus I am not your mere equal in terms of direct knowing, so how could I be inferior? I am actually superior to you.' "'If, good sir, you have directly known the extent of what has not been experienced through the allness of the all, may it not turn out to be actually vain and void for you.' "'Consciousness without surface, endless, radiant all around, has not been experienced through the earthness of earth ... the liquidity of liquid ... the fieriness of fire ... the windiness of wind ... the allness of the all.'_9_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.049.than.html#n-9) ------------------------------------------------- Personally, I think that the sense doors and their objects were common knowledge during the Buddha's time. The Buddha uses that paradigm to explain a great many things, to many different audiences, and they all seem to understand him. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Oh, certainly. But in the Sabba Sutta, the Buddha says that there is nothing else than this, and, on the other hand, in MN 49 he seems to say that nibbana (viewed there as "unmanifestive consciousness") IS beyond the all. Putting these together, I tend to view "the all" as the samsaric appearance of what there is, and nibbana as what actually is, and I don't see this as appreciably different from Nagarjuna's identification of samsara and nibbana. Right now we "see as through a glass, darkly," but when the blinders are removed what there is appears as it is - nibbana. ------------------------------------------------ Howard, I teach the six sense doors and their objects to elementary school kids! We learn what you can see, taste, smell, hear, touch, etc. (now, I don't really teach consciousness LOL!). Metta, James =========================== With metta, Howard #93640 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Dec 17, 2008 5:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: On the chemical nature of consciousness upasaka_howard Hi, Herman - In a message dated 12/17/2008 12:22:47 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, hhofmeister@... writes: Hi Howard, 2008/12/15 : > Hi, Herman (and Scott) - > > ------------------------------------------- > Howard: > It seems to me that overwhelmingly throughout the suttas, the Buddha > makes mind preeminent. This is true especially from the fundamental perspective > that the entire goal of the Dhamma is liberating the mind, freeing it from > defilements and suffering. It is mind that is cultivated by Dhamma practice, > and mind that is freed, not body. > ------------------------------------------ I've had a good long think over this, and I'm going to disagree with your overall conclusion. I do not believe that the suttas have the goal of the Dhamma as being the liberation of the mind from defilements and suffering. I accept that there will be one or two suttas which will add enormous weight to your case. But what I understand from the suttas is that "The holy life is lived under the Blessed One, my friend, for the sake of total Unbinding through lack of clinging." (MN24) I do not believe that the suttas teach that it is possible for there to be a mind free from dukkha. Rather, all phenomena are taught, at every turn of the way, to be inherently dukkha. Certainly, the mind receives lots of attention in the suttas. But I think that is because mind is the domain of suffering, and it is the ending of suffering that is preeminent. I do not understand the goal of the Dhamma to be the liberation of the mind, but liberation from the mind ie cessation. Cheers Herman ============================== Yes, we're in strong disagreement on this matter. :-) With metta, Howard #93641 From: "colette" Date: Wed Dec 17, 2008 9:49 am Subject: "And still we wonder, who the hell we are" Styx aka Grand Illusion ksheri3 THANK YOU HOWAZRD, FOR INCLUDING ME IN THIS "rogues gallery" discussion! You nailed it for a neophyte to apprehend > When Nina, Jon, Sarah, Scott, colette, Howard, KenH, TG, Alex, Phil, > Larry, connie, James (no particular order, sorry for omissions, sorry > for where anyone was placed :-)) discuss theory, it is immediately > obvious who is saying what, and not because of whose name appears at > the sign off stage. The notion of pure theory is debunked by all of > us. > colette: now wait a minute. We all have a lot of conclusions we are certain of but that does not mean that there exist a finite realm, a parameter, which encloses this mutually pressumed extension. Thank you for including me in the list of perpetuals that continually rant and rave on certain subjects or obligations however it must be noticed that those certain responsibilities are transient and are, THEREFORE, maliable, like playdo. I've always loved the word "maliable" since it compledtely describes the actual phenominology of the "mind-only" school and it completely describes the reality of "the magikian" in the standard A.E.Waite deck, Scott, Thanx for that touch that brought a smile to my face but as I clearly showed you the continuity rests in the Lemniscate which martial artists know well and the magikian knows since they, the martial arts and magik, are both "Black ARsts". Gots to be off. Thank you for including me in the discussion and recalling my pet peaves: very observant and very conscious. Luv ya dolls. toodles, colette <....> > My turn to ask you about you. What gives with the unbridled conviction > that you approximate a true Buddhist? > > Cheers > > > Herman > #93642 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Dec 17, 2008 10:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] "And still we wonder, who the hell we are" Styx aka Grand Illusion upasaka_howard Hi, Colette - What you quote in the following was not written by me. With metta, Howard In a message dated 12/17/2008 5:13:23 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, ksheri3@... writes: > When Nina, Jon, Sarah, Scott, colette, Howard, KenH, TG, Alex, Phil, > Larry, connie, James (no particular order, sorry for omissions, sorry > for where anyone was placed :-)) discuss theory, it is immediately > obvious who is saying what, and not because of whose name appears at > the sign off stage. The notion of pure theory is debunked by all of > us. > #93643 From: "Phil" Date: Wed Dec 17, 2008 4:01 pm Subject: Re: In praise of the Mangala Sutta philofillet Hi Connie > dear absent phil, Not yet. I feel like the Austin Powers assassin who jumped off the cliff but kept calling up "I'm not dead yet." > > P: I am aware of the danger of sakkaya-ditthi but I am aware of greater dangers as well. Last word to you. > > c: Curious as to what those might be, but it might be a blessing that you're not around to ask. Ph: Hmm. A blessing not yet granted! As it happens I came across a sutta quote that made me want to post to DSG: "As if smitten by a sword, as if his head were on fire, a bhikkhu should wander mindfully to abandon sensual lust and identity view." (SN 2:16) This passage, which I've appreciated in the past but forgot (hopefully not this time) is the clearest one I've seen that urges to work on identity view immediately with the same earnestness one does with gross defilements. It is very impressive, far more impressive for me in its 24 words than 100,000 DSG posts by nice friends who cry out warnings! That is a silly prejudice, but there you go. When I see "greater danger" I should have said more immediate danger and usually would. Eliminating sakaya ditthi will take many, many lifetimes in my opinion - it is so very deeply rooted - but there are gross defilements that can be weakened here and now in a much clearer way, gross defilements that will destroy all progress we've made if they are not weakened. That is what I usual say. But the above passage will make me reflect on the importance of working on sakaya ditthi here and now. Of course it will happen, or not. I apreciate that. It is not something we can decide to do. Or is it... Instead of either of our last words on this subject, then, let's have these: > > << > vism xiii, 89. Wrong in their views: having distorted vision. Acquirers of kamma due to wrong view: those who have kamma of the various kinds acquired through wrong view, and also, those who incite others to bodily kamma, etc., rooted in wrong view. Ph: Wrong view refers first and foremost to the wrong view that denies the result of deeds etc. All teachers I hear without except make that clear. I have my hands full with that kind of wrong view. Any time there is mention of "wrong view" it is usually that wrong view that is being referred to I think. But yes, I will be keeping sakkaya ditthi in mind more. Of course it is the ultimate great danger. But believing ourselves to really be doing anything about it by studying and reflecting on Abdhiamma is very naive in my opinion. When we have reflection on the anattaness of paramattha dhammas it feels so very deep and liberating but it is just thinking, I think. I know it is not easy for householders to achieve and there is a lot of mis-guidance about it by various teachers, but samadhi has to be developed that gives rise to the true nature of things, that is so clear from the texts. Momentary concentration (khannica samadhi) is probably not the single fleeting moment of concentration that accompanies all cittas. I say probably because I'm not sure. OK, off the cliff I go again. We'll see if I'm still calling out next time you inquire! :) It's been nice having this exchange with you Connie, a sign of fruitful exchanges to come in the future when there are conditions for me to be a proper Dhamma discusser. As always I am confident that will come someday! :) Metta, Phil #93644 From: "Phil" Date: Wed Dec 17, 2008 4:18 pm Subject: Re: In praise of the Mangala Sutta philofillet Hi again > Any time there is mention of "wrong view" it is usually that wrong > view that is being referred to I think. Correction. The above is dumb. I should say that for me the important kind of "wrong view" is the basic one I still suffer from at times, that the Dhamma is just another crock cooked up by religionists, that there is no result of deeds etc. That is the wrong view I am concerned about now. But that's me. But the above is of course stupid. Wait a second. No it isn't. It's true. The great majority of "wrong view" references in the texts would be referring to that kind of basic wrong view, I'm sure. So the "usually" above makes it correct. Metta, Phil #93645 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Wed Dec 17, 2008 4:36 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: how to view the self egberdina Hi Alberto, 2008/12/17 sprlrt : > Hi Herman, > >> >> Language is a means of exchange par excellence because language is >> common to us all. So each time someone expresses some idea like >> "everyone lives in their own world", the very fact that they express >> the idea refutes the idea, it is self-defeating. Can you not see that >> all communicating is predicated on a shared / common reality? >> >> Cheers >> >> >> Herman >> > > I think that we'll have to dig a bit deeper than that to find the > dhammas and get some relief from concepts. > I think I can save you a bit of time. There is no "we" in the Abhidhamma. And if there are only dhammas, what can a concept be other than dhammic? Cheers Herman #93646 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Dec 17, 2008 4:41 pm Subject: Q. [dsg] Re: Series Survey Quote. buddhatrue Hi Nina (and Howard), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear James, > What you say is to the point and I always admire your intelligent > style of writing and bringing up things that are worth considering > more. James: Thank you for the nice compliment. :-) > ------ > N: It is unique that he taught these realities as being without a > self, not my visible object, my seeing. James: Yes that is unique, but he doesn't do that in this sutta. He doesn't mention anything at all about anatta or satipatthana in this sutta. He spoke this sutta to define "The All" and to refute those who describe an alternate "All". > -------- > N: Sutta reading is not easy, the words seem so simple but they are > deep in meaning. When superficially reading, we may think: everybody > can know this. But we have to look more carefully to understand the > truth. James: Well, it seems that you and Howard are in agreement that I am reading this sutta superficially, but I still don't think so. Is this sutta a teaching about anatta simply because the Buddha doesn't list "anatta" or "Brahma" among the all? I don't see how it could be considered so because the sutta itself is very brief and general. The sutta is very brief and general because the Buddha wanted to give a very simple message: "The All" is what you experience through the six senses, there isn't an alternative All. The commentary to this sutta is over three times as long as the sutta itself and very confusing. Why? Because the commentators were reading much more into the sutta than what was intended. Personally, I don't think this sutta requires any commentary. It is very simple and straightforward. I could be wrong and just a dullard about this sutta, but I don't see any compelling evidence to change my mind. > ------ > N: This is very interesting, I wonder how the kids react. James: Well, they all start to glow with inner wisdom and levitate off of the floor. LOL! ;-)) They react like regular kids- they know what I am talking about because they understand the sense doors and their objects. Perhaps you > can help them seeing conditions for all these experiences. You can > help them to understand that not a person is seeing or hearing, only > conditioned phenomena which are mental and physical. James: That is a bit too deep. I just teach the kids English as a Second Language using the sense doors and their objects. For example, here are two songs they learn: I CAN SEE SEE SEE I CAN SMELL SMELL SMELL I CAN SEE I CAN SMELL MANY THINGS. WHEN I USE MY EYES AND NOSE I CAN SEE AND SMELL IT ALL I CAN SEE I CAN SMELL MANY THINGS ... I CAN HEAR HEAR HEAR I CAN TOUCH TOUCH TOUCH I CAN HEAR I CAN TOUCH MANY THINGS WHEN I USE MY EARS AND HANDS I CAN HEAR AND TOUCH IT ALL I CAN HEAR I CAN TOUCH MANY THINGS > > ******* > Nina. > Metta, James #93647 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Wed Dec 17, 2008 4:47 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: In praise of the Mangala Sutta egberdina Hi Phil, 2008/12/18 Phil : > > When I see "greater danger" I should have said more immediate > danger and usually would. Eliminating sakaya ditthi will take many, > many lifetimes in my opinion - it is so very deeply rooted - Isn't the notion of a lifetime itself integral to sakaya ditthi? You are saying that it takes sakaya ditthi to eliminate sakaya ditthi. It might seem profound on the face of it, but it really isn't. If sakaya ditthi is a wrong view of the way things are, then sakaya ditthi can do nothing. It is the seeing of a mirage. Mirages do not cause themselves to arise, or cause themselves to disappear. It is only when the conditions for the arising of sakaya ditthi are absent, that sakaya ditthi will not arise. Cheers Herman #93648 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Wed Dec 17, 2008 4:51 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Lodewijk's Diary, no 4. egberdina Hi Nina, Doesn't sound like Lodewijk enjoyed his work much :-) Also, I hope you can see that when you list houses, humans, world etc as concepts that Kh Sujin and sotapanna need to be included in that list as well. Cheers Herman #93649 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Dec 17, 2008 1:06 pm Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Re: Series Survey Quote. upasaka_howard Hi, James (and Nina) - In a message dated 12/17/2008 7:42:01 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@... writes: Hi Nina (and Howard), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear James, > What you say is to the point and I always admire your intelligent > style of writing and bringing up things that are worth considering > more. James: Thank you for the nice compliment. :-) > ------ > N: It is unique that he taught these realities as being without a > self, not my visible object, my seeing. James: Yes that is unique, but he doesn't do that in this sutta. He doesn't mention anything at all about anatta or satipatthana in this sutta. He spoke this sutta to define "The All" and to refute those who describe an alternate "All". > -------- > N: Sutta reading is not easy, the words seem so simple but they are > deep in meaning. When superficially reading, we may think: everybody > can know this. But we have to look more carefully to understand the > truth. James: Well, it seems that you and Howard are in agreement that I am reading this sutta superficially, but I still don't think so. --------------------------------------------- Howard: I certainly didn't say that nor do I think that. I agree with you that this sutta has nothing at all to do, directly, with insight or mindfulness. It happens that the elements of "the all" compose exactly the foundations of mindfulness, but that is not the point of the sutta, and no mention of that occurs in the sutta. The point of the sutta is that these are the only phenomena, with there being no Brahman/Atman/Self to be found anywhere. -------------------------------------------- Is this sutta a teaching about anatta simply because the Buddha doesn't list "anatta" or "Brahma" among the all? I don't see how it could be considered so because the sutta itself is very brief and general. The sutta is very brief and general because the Buddha wanted to give a very simple message: "The All" is what you experience through the six senses, there isn't an alternative All. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: That's exactly so, as I see it. And thus it is within the all that freedom lies. There is no need to go beyond, but only a need to uproot the three poisons, awaken from our dreaming, and see the all as it actually is. --------------------------------------------- The commentary to this sutta is over three times as long as the sutta itself and very confusing. Why? Because the commentators were reading much more into the sutta than what was intended. Personally, I don't think this sutta requires any commentary. It is very simple and straightforward. I could be wrong and just a dullard about this sutta, but I don't see any compelling evidence to change my mind. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: I think this *is* an important sutta for all those who believe in Atman, Brahman, an Oversoul, or a Godhead, and who think there that such is a refuge to be sought - a refuge that lies beyond the all. There *is*, I believe, a reality to things that is magnificent, freeing, sublime, inexpressible, and the supreme happiness, but it is to be found right here, within the all and not in some Shangrila or by union with a deity. In other suttas, not here, though, the Buddha directs us to mindfully attend to the elements of the all for the purpose of coming to see their true nature, and thereby break free. What is taught in *this* sutta indeed justifies that approach, but following that approach is not what is addressed here. --------------------------------------------- > ------ > N: This is very interesting, I wonder how the kids react. James: Well, they all start to glow with inner wisdom and levitate off of the floor. LOL! ;-)) They react like regular kids- they know what I am talking about because they understand the sense doors and their objects. Perhaps you > can help them seeing conditions for all these experiences. You can > help them to understand that not a person is seeing or hearing, only > conditioned phenomena which are mental and physical. James: That is a bit too deep. I just teach the kids English as a Second Language using the sense doors and their objects. For example, here are two songs they learn: I CAN SEE SEE SEE I CAN SMELL SMELL SMELL I CAN SEE I CAN SMELL MANY THINGS. WHEN I USE MY EYES AND NOSE I CAN SEE AND SMELL IT ALL I CAN SEE I CAN SMELL MANY THINGS ... I CAN HEAR HEAR HEAR I CAN TOUCH TOUCH TOUCH I CAN HEAR I CAN TOUCH MANY THINGS WHEN I USE MY EARS AND HANDS I CAN HEAR AND TOUCH IT ALL I CAN HEAR I CAN TOUCH MANY THINGS > > ******* > Nina. > Metta, James ============================== With metta, Howard #93650 From: "connie" Date: Wed Dec 17, 2008 6:17 pm Subject: In praise of the Mangala Sutta nichiconn dear phil, P: samadhi has to be developed that gives rise to the true nature of things, that is so clear from the texts. c: is that what you meant to say, or 'gives rise to understanding'? (which i'd also quibble with; it might, not does categorically, give.) P: Momentary concentration (khannica samadhi) is probably not the single fleeting moment of concentration that accompanies all cittas. I say probably because I'm not sure. c: there are different moments, but, as with the kalapa, whichever of the characteristics is 'more intense' at the time is 'prominent' or 'manifest' and we call the whole thing 'fire', say, the intensity or strength of a single 'concentrate of thought' would vary (compared to other concentrates of the same or a different brand) depending on the strength or successfulness of the individual cetasikas involved. a moment is just a photograph. don't let me bore you, jumper, connie #93651 From: "connie" Date: Wed Dec 17, 2008 11:01 pm Subject: re: stumbling on nichiconn dear nina, "homework" is what i say, too; a better expression, verbally- and bodily-wise, of "my desire becoming" than many other 'things to do'. We speak, as sarah takes it, in shorthand; citta is the illustrator but chances are this moment is too dark to see. of course, i read too much not well enough, but "practise" makes perfect, not I & (vism xiv, n.27). connie ps. larry, "thanku thanku thanku" for the ch.14 index post: #55332. #93652 From: "sprlrt" Date: Thu Dec 18, 2008 12:23 am Subject: [dsg] Re: how to view the self sprlrt Hi Herman, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > > I think I can save you a bit of time. There is no "we" in the > Abhidhamma. And if there are only dhammas, what can a concept be other > than dhammic? > > Cheers > > > Herman > What citta experiences that it takes for real, concepts (time, we, no we, Abhidhamma, Herman, Alberto) are objects that citta experience, dhammarammana. Once experienced the object, including a concept, is remebered or marked by sanna khandha, and becomes a condition for being the object of citta again, when alll the required conditions are fullfilled. It is not a self that thinks about something, just citta and cetaiskas arising & falling in an extremely rapid succession, each with its object. Herman and Alberto have no control over this perfectly natural process ruled by conditions (avijja, lobha, dosa, panna, alobha and adhosa being the roots), though we like to think (in capitals) we have. Alberto #93653 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Dec 18, 2008 1:22 am Subject: Lodewijk's Diary, 5. nilovg Dear friends, L: Unbelievable, a general strike in Cecho-Slovakia...Worked until twelve at night. One more night and then Nina returns. ------ N: Awareness of sound as just a reality. It reduces the importance of its meaning as something or somebody. Kh S: Dont keep anything in your mind. Just leave it from moment to moment. Let it go... Who am I? It is all completely gone... No one can stop thinking, but awareness can be aware and then one does not keep it. One does not have to worry at all, because there are conditons for each moment, such as hearing or seeing. There is lobha time and again,when you want to do something, like taking a bath. When you stretch out your hand to get something, a glass, when you move, walk, sit down, lie down. When you hope for something or expect something. There are many degrees of lobha and we should come to know also the more subtle degrees. There is lobha with pleasant feeling and with indifferent feeling, lobha on account of the objects appearing through the six doorways. --------- Nina. #93654 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Dec 18, 2008 1:32 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Re: Lodewijk's Diary, no 4. nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 17-dec-2008, om 12:56 heeft szmicio het volgende geschreven: > Is it good to know that we cannot induce such understanding? > > Is it good to know, there is no "person", when akusala arises? > I generally think a lot about "my akusala" and have regrets about it. > But isn't it just thinking? We usually think about ourselfs, that we > are such and such, we should be polite and generous, but ist it just > thinking? thinking with akusala? The reality, which happens now? > Good to know? ------ N: Understanding is always better than ignorance and wrong view. As I wrote today: This may answer your question. Regret about one's kusala, we may understand this too. When we say regret, it is usually aversion. Long ago I had doubts about awareness and thinking, about nama and rupa, and discussed this with Ven. Dhammadharo. He said, when the reality is doubt, then be aware of doubt, doubt, doubt. I still hear him say it, he had such a strong voice expressing lots of confidence. It is good to know that no person has doubt or regret about akusala, but so long as one has not become a sotaapanna, we take dhammas for self. But understanding can be developed, even now. _____ Nina. #93655 From: "gazita2002" Date: Thu Dec 18, 2008 2:12 am Subject: Re: DN 31 Layman's Code of Discipline (was In praise of the Mangala Sutta ) gazita2002 Hello Phil, Want to comment on your PS, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > > Hello again Nina, Lodewijk and all azita: I havent read the sutta either, but something has touched me here. have been thinking about this aspect of the teachings, this teaching to lay folk and teaching to monks I think the Buddha taught on different levels to suit different degrees of understanding. However, do you think that one can try to live a better life eg have patience and consideration when you feel liking yelling at someone, and also have the deeper level of understanding. We have been taught that nothing is permanent so if at times we think it is "me" who is performing good deeds and at other times understand that the good/bad deeds arise bec of conditions, surely all of this must be beneficial, no? I know there is often the comment 'we can do nothing bec there is no we' but that shouldnt stop us trying to be a better person. We do that anyway, I think, bec often there is wrong view, but also bec we see the benefits of being kind and considerate. this is a bit scrambled I feel, but am on indian internet and one never knows when the power will fail and .....cyberspace may all beings be happy, azita >> Ph: I haven't read the sutta yet so won't comment further, but > looks interesting for helping us consider the way the Buddha > encouraged lay followers to approach the teaching. I'm not saying > that there cannot be deeper consideration of Abhidhamma, for > example. But we will see what the Buddha urges when we read this > sutta. Will students of A.S insist after reading it that it is all > about paramattha dhammas rather than people who do not yet have > insight into paramattha dhammas in a way that does away with people? > That is a rhetorical question because of course you will! That is > your doctrine and fair enough! But I will attempt now and then to > open other doors. :) > > Metta, > > Phil #93656 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Thu Dec 18, 2008 4:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: how to view the self egberdina Hi Alberto, 2008/12/18 sprlrt : > Hi Herman, > > > What citta experiences that it takes for real, concepts (time, we, no > we, Abhidhamma, Herman, Alberto) are objects that citta experience, > dhammarammana. Once experienced the object, including a concept, is > remebered or marked by sanna khandha, and becomes a condition for > being the object of citta again, when alll the required conditions are > fullfilled. It is not a self that thinks about something, just citta > and cetaiskas arising & falling in an extremely rapid succession, each > with its object. Yes, that is understood. Herman and Alberto have no control over this > perfectly natural process ruled by conditions (avijja, lobha, dosa, > panna, alobha and adhosa being the roots), though we like to think (in > capitals) we have. > This demonstrates a lack of understanding. We cannot like or think, because what we are is the object of the imagination of dhammas. It is not we that have wrong view of dhammas, is is dhammas that have wrong view, of we. Cheers Herman #93657 From: "Scott" Date: Thu Dec 18, 2008 5:25 am Subject: Re: Sangiiti Sutta Threes (34-36) scottduncan2 Dear friends, Continuing on from the last set [#93304 Threes (31-33) (cy: ]: #93491, #93434, #93364): CSCD Tividhena ruupasa'ngaho " sanidassanasappa.tigha.m ruupa.m [sanidassanasappa.tigharuupa.m (syaa. ka.m.) evamitaradvayepi], anidassanasappa.tigha.m ruupa.m, anidassanaappa.tigha.m ruupa.m. Walshe DN 33.1.10(34) Threefold classification of matter: visible and resisting, invisible and resisting, invisible and unresisting*1040. Olds [ 3.34 ] Three Forms of Matter (rupa): visible and producing resistance[ 3.34 ]; not visible and producing resistance; not visible and not producing resistance RD's [ 3.34 ] Threefold classification of matter, to wit, as visible and resisting, as invisible and resisting, as invisible and unresisting.3.34 *walshe: 1040 This refers to 'very subtle matter'. **olds: [ 3.34 ] (sappa.tigha.m: sa=with patigha=striking against ***rd: 3.34Or non-reacting. A psycho-physical category. See Bud. Psy. Eth., 754-6. The third kind is also applicable to very subtle matter. Comy. CSCD Tayo sa'nkhaaraa " pu~n~naabhisa'nkhaaro, apu~n~naabhisa'nkhaaro , aane~njaabhisa'nkhaaro. Walshe DN 33.1.10(35) Three kinds of kammic formation:*1041 meritorious, demeritorious, imperturbable.*1042 [iii 218] Olds [ 3.35 ] Three Confoundings:[ 3.35 ] good; not-good; inactive. RD's [ 3.35 ] Three accumulations,3.35 to wit, complexes of merit, of demerit, of influctuate [results].3.35.1 *walshe: 1041 'They compound co-existent states and (their) future fruition-states' (DA). 1042 This refers to rebirth in the Formless World. **olds: [ 3.35 ] (sa'nkhaaraa: pu~n~naabhisa'nkhaaro, apu~n~naabhisa'nkhaaro, aane~njaabhisa'nkhaaro: (confoundings, personalizations; Rhys Davids: accumulations; Walshe: karmic formations): pu~n~naabhisa'nkhaaro, (subjectively good, desirable, meritorious); aane~njaabhisa'nkhaaro, (immovable, in other contexts translated unshakable, as in having unshakable faith, or, of the Arahant, one who's condition is unshakable, here this is kamma that is DOA, it is the product of an act, but the act is of "not doing", and while it cannot be said that there is no result, the result cannot be pointed to. See: http://www.buddhadust.org/dhammatalk/give_ear/one_sure_way.htm and http://www.buddhadust.org/dhammatalk/give_ear/paticca_samuppada_x4.htm for illustrations of this idea). I am becoming more and more convinced that in terms of the way we use the terms "kamma" and "sankhara" today (7/19/02) there is no difference between the two. If there is a difference it is non Buddhist (that is that "kamma" could mean karma in a general, non-individualized sense, where sankara would mean one's own karma -- both mean both the act and it's consequences. There is some slight emphasis on the act when "kamma" is used and some slight emphasis on the outcome when "sankhara" is used. There is, in addition, a strong sense of "Identification with" associated with sankhara. To my mind "sankhara" could well have been a word intended to clarify the idea that kamma was not just simply "action" but also the consequences thereof. ***rd: 3.35Sankhaara:--because 'they compound co-existent states and states of future-life-results; they make a heap (raasi.m).' Comy. But cf. above, p.204, n.2. 3.35.1Ane~njabhisankhaaro:--it compounds what is immovable ... has become result, is immaterial ... a synonym for will for rebirth in the Aruupa heavens. Comy. Cf. S. II, 82 f.; Vibh. 135, 340. CSCD Tayo puggalaa " sekkho puggalo, asekkho puggalo, nevasekkhonaasekkho puggalo. Walshe DN 33.1.10(36) Three persons: the learner, the non-learner, the one who is neither*1043. Olds [ 3.36 ] Three persons: the person who is a seeker[ 3.36 ], the person who is a seer, the person who is neither seeker nor seer. RD's [ 218 ][ 3.36 ] Three kinds of persons, to wit, the learner, the adept, he who is neither.3.36 *walshe: 1043 Cf. n.542 542 Sekhaa: learners who, having gained one of the first three paths, have yet to attain enlightenment. **olds: [ 3.36 ] (sekha: usually "learner." However this is translated, if the original formation is used (sekho, asekho, n'eva sekho naasekho; x, not-x, neither x-nor-not-x) we have a hard time hearing the intended meaning which is: one who is seeking the answers, the one who has found the answers, and the ordinary individual who neither seeks for the answers nor has the answers. ***rd: 3.36I.e., the puthujjana, or 'man in the street,' average person. Sincerely, Scott, connie, Nina. #93658 From: "sprlrt" Date: Thu Dec 18, 2008 8:07 am Subject: [dsg] Re: how to view the self sprlrt Hi Herman, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > > This demonstrates a lack of understanding. We cannot like or think, > because what we are is the object of the imagination of dhammas. It is > not we that have wrong view of dhammas, is is dhammas that have wrong > view, of we. > Yours, like mine, is just thinking about what dhammas might or might not be like, which is just fiction in both cases, I agree Wrong view is a nama dhamma, it invariably arises with avijja in 4 akusala cittas rooted in lobha (ditthigata sampayutta) and then falls away immediatly, for seven times consecutevely, hence accumulating as kilesa. Sometimes it is accompanied by pleasant feelings, somassa sahagatam (others by upekkha, neutral), which means that is one of dhammas we get our kicks from, "I exist", for instance, or its opposite, "Nothing exists". One of the charachteristics of nama dhammas is that they sampayutta, they blend together completely, and telling ditthi apart from lobha, avijja or citta requires a fairly advanced panna, of the second (I think) vipassana nana level. Alberto #93659 From: "connie" Date: Thu Dec 18, 2008 10:24 am Subject: re: Vis. Revisited. (NO farfetchedness) nichiconn thanks again, Nina, can't say why I kept 'seeing' "farfetchedness" in the book, but it's not there today! still a strange word, though. no idea where I came up with it. good to know I can't just take my word for anything. lol, connie #93660 From: "Alex" Date: Thu Dec 18, 2008 10:35 am Subject: Re: nailing down people & understanding truth_aerator Dear Connie, Jon, and all I am very busy these weeks and I just checked DSG again. Can you please explain what you have meant in this post and the other one? In any case there isn't a true ariyan outside of Buddha's dispensation & its N8P. 8 Fold not 8 fold path. Regarding understanding:I do agree that it is one of the most important things to *see*. The catch is that like money, it doesn't grow on the trees. It must be developed and seen. Here is the disagreement between what the Buddha has taught & the DSG view. With best wishes, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > > dear alex, > > thanks for your patience with my quotes. > > Here is one from Suttanipaata - > Vaase.t.tha: > 55. What is called 'Name' or 'Tribe,' in the world, arises from usage only. It is adopted here and there by common consent. > 56. It comes from long and uninterrupted usage, and from the false belief of the ignorant. (Hence) the ignorant assert - "that a Brahman is such from birth". > > > > I think that 'long and uninterrupted usage' 'by common consent' keeps the 'Name' alive. That is, as long as 'the false belief of the ignorant' that gave rise to it continues to support it, it remains in existence, spanning aeons. > > > Vism. viii,152. - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/93610 #93661 From: "Alex" Date: Thu Dec 18, 2008 10:45 am Subject: Re: Suttas in which the Buddha held back the deep teaching? truth_aerator Dear Jon, >"jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Alex > But I'm not aware of any text that says that the > individual with stronger fetters needs jhana while the individual > with well-developed faculties may not. Both induvidials need Jhana. It is just a matter of degree of development.Jhana forms "samadhi-indriya/bala" and samma-samadhi. Whether this samma-samadhi last for one second, or is semi- continuously developed for 7-14 days (like for Ven. Sariputa & Ven. MahaMogallana) Can you show me where this >is stated (or implied) in the texts? > > > > What is the sutta basis for this distinction? Do the texts > mention > > > the case of the "high level individual"? > > > > Bahiya is one example. Pukkusati (from MN140) is another. Please > > note, Pukkusati meditated for couple of hours (most of the night) > > prior to hearing Buddha's discource and becoming an Anagami > > immeadetely after. > > I'm not sure what you mean by "meditated" in this context. Sat down crosslegged and trained for relinquishment & burning of the defilements (jhana). But in > any event, how does this support the distinction you are trying to > make? Pukkusati, like many others, became enlightened while > listening to the Buddha's discourse, in this case a discourse on the > theme "One should not neglect wisdom, should preserve truth, should > cultivate relinquishment, and should train for peace." > > > Jhana softens the mind & make it workable for insight & considering > > to be able to reach through. > > It is true that that there are many instances in the texts of monks > with jhana attaining enlightenment. > > But it should not be deduced from this that jhana is the preferred > path for the attaining of enlightenment. If it were, the Buddha > would have said so. But he didn't. BULL!!! See mn36. JHANA IS THE PATH TO AWAKENING. JHANA IS THE PATH TO AWAKENING.JHANA IS THE PATH TO AWAKENING. JHANA IS THE PATH TO AWAKENING. JHANA IS THE PATH TO AWAKENING. JHANA IS THE PATH TO AWAKENING. JHANA IS THE PATH TO AWAKENING. JHANA IS THE PATH TO AWAKENING. JHANA IS THE PATH TO AWAKENING.JHANA IS THE PATH TO AWAKENING. He encouraged the development of > jhana for its own sake, just as he encouraged the development of > other kinds of kusala. And he encouraged the development of insight > without in any way tying it to the development of jhana. > > > People today have lots of defilements and neurosis and thus it is > > harder for them to accept the true teachings. 5 Hindrances are > > stronger today as there is more fuel for them and we don't have a > > brilliant teacher called Buddha to give us personal guidance. > > > > Thus more preliminary work at clearing 'space' must be done. > > You are correct in saying that that it is harder for people nowadays > to accept the true teachings. This is because of wrong view. It is > wrong view, not the 5 hindrances, that is the greatest impediment to > the development of insight. > > Jon Hindrances feed avijja, especially kama asava (which Jhana burns away). See MN#9 sutta. Understanding like money, doesn't grow on trees. Understanding will not drop on you one day. Proper conditions must be set first. With best wishes, #93662 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Dec 18, 2008 6:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Suttas in which the Buddha held back the deep teaching? upasaka_howard Hi, Alex (and Jon) - In a message dated 12/18/2008 1:45:41 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, you, Alex (_truth_aerator@..._ (mailto:truth_aerator@...) ), quote Jon, saying: > But it should not be deduced from this that jhana is the preferred > path for the attaining of enlightenment. If it were, the Buddha > would have said so. But he didn't. ------------------------------------------- Howard: And then you reply, ever so sweetly (LOL!) with: -------------------------------------- BULL!!! See mn36. JHANA IS THE PATH TO AWAKENING. JHANA IS THE PATH TO AWAKENING.JHANA IS THE PATH TO AWAKENING. JHANA IS THE PATH TO AWAKENING. JHANA IS THE PATH TO AWAKENING. JHANA IS THE PATH TO AWAKENING. JHANA IS THE PATH TO AWAKENING. JHANA IS THE PATH TO AWAKENING. JHANA IS THE PATH TO AWAKENING.JHANA IS THE PATH TO AWAKENING. ------------------------------------- Howard: And your point, Alex, is right on target. For in that sutta, the Buddha spoke as follows: _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Could there be another path to Awakening?' "I thought: 'I recall once, when my father the Sakyan was working, and I was sitting in the cool shade of a rose-apple tree, then — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities — I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. Could that be the path to Awakening?' Then, following on that memory, came the realization: 'That is the path to Awakening.' _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ So, there it is: THAT *IS* THE PATH TO AWAKENING, he realized. Is there some ambiguity in that, Jon? Or is this is a spurious sutta? What do you think, Jon? With metta, Howard #93663 From: "connie" Date: Thu Dec 18, 2008 2:47 pm Subject: Re: nailing down people & understanding nichiconn dear Alex, a: I am very busy these weeks and I just checked DSG again. Can you please explain what you have meant in this post and the other one? c: i hope your busy-ness meets with good success. you had, in passing, mentioned "buddhist meditation" and << When outsiders know mindfulness of breathing, they only know the first four modes' (Pm.257) >> reminded me of that. that's what i meant in #93610. the rest of the quote was for context. i believe this is also the "buddhist meditation" of mn26. the other (#93613), to my mind, is a sutta quote that calls into question the supposed impermanence of a certain class of concepts. i'm afraid it's my turn to be a bit busy now, but i intend to return to the subject later & hope it will be convenient for you then. peace, connie #93664 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Dec 18, 2008 5:15 pm Subject: Re: Suttas in which the Buddha held back the deep teaching? kenhowardau Hi Howard and Alex, --------- Howard: > And your point, Alex, is right on target. For in that sutta, the Buddha spoke as follows: _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Could there be another path to Awakening?' "I thought: 'I recall once, when my father the Sakyan was working, and I was sitting in the cool shade of a rose-apple tree, then " quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities " I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. Could that be the path to Awakening?' Then, following on that memory, came the realization: 'That is the path to Awakening.' _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ So, there it is: THAT *IS* THE PATH TO AWAKENING, he realized. Is there some ambiguity in that, Jon? Or is this is a spurious sutta? What do you think, Jon? ----------------- I could ask you that, Howard. What does Jon think? He has discussed this quote dozens of times on DSG. And on the broader question of "Is mundane jhana necessary for enlightenment?" he has explained his understanding *hundreds* of times. Even if you disagree with him don't you at least know how he thinks about it? Ken H #93665 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Dec 18, 2008 12:55 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Suttas in which the Buddha held back the deep teaching? upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and Alex & Jon) - In a message dated 12/18/2008 8:15:26 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi Howard and Alex, --------- Howard: > And your point, Alex, is right on target. For in that sutta, the Buddha spoke as follows: _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Could there be another path to Awakening?' "I thought: 'I recall once, when my father the Sakyan was working, and I was sitting in the cool shade of a rose-apple tree, then â€" quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities â€" I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. Could that be the path to Awakening?' Then, following on that memory, came the realization: 'That is the path to Awakening.' _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ So, there it is: THAT *IS* THE PATH TO AWAKENING, he realized. Is there some ambiguity in that, Jon? Or is this is a spurious sutta? What do you think, Jon? ----------------- I could ask you that, Howard. What does Jon think? He has discussed this quote dozens of times on DSG. And on the broader question of "Is mundane jhana necessary for enlightenment?" he has explained his understanding *hundreds* of times. Even if you disagree with him don't you at least know how he thinks about it? ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't recall the discussions, Ken, but I can tell you one thing: That jhana that the Buddha experienced as a child under the rose-apple tree was not supermundane jhana, for no awakening occurred then. So, IMO, you're just wrong. --------------------------------------------------- Ken H ============================ With metta, Howard #93666 From: "connie" Date: Thu Dec 18, 2008 6:29 pm Subject: Re: Suttas in which the Buddha held back the deep teaching? nichiconn Hi, People. Howard: That jhana that the Buddha experienced as a child under the rose-apple tree was not supermundane jhana, for no awakening occurred then. --------------------------------------------------- c: That child was the Bodhisatta, not just any old kid. What's that they say again about this breath meditation being special? peace, connie #93667 From: "Alex" Date: Thu Dec 18, 2008 7:31 pm Subject: Re: Suttas in which the Buddha held back the deep teaching? truth_aerator Hello all, But the Buddha did NOT say that his Jhana was only for Bodhisattas. He said that it IS the path to awakening, implying that it is path for us as well. He also often has recommended Anapanasati to many people thus challenging the opinion of his breath meditation being 'different' or only for select few. With best wishes, #93668 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Dec 18, 2008 2:38 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Suttas in which the Buddha held back the deep teaching? upasaka_howard Hi, Connie (and Ken, and Jon) - In a message dated 12/18/2008 9:29:39 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, nichicon@... writes: Hi, People. Howard: That jhana that the Buddha experienced as a child under the rose-apple tree was not supermundane jhana, for no awakening occurred then. --------------------------------------------------- c: That child was the Bodhisatta, not just any old kid. What's that they say again about this breath meditation being special? ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: I don't get your point about breath meditation. It was how the Buddha mediatted so far as I know, and it is the most common sort of meditation among Buddhists. It is how I meditate, and I find it to be excellent. But what is your point about it? In any case, getting back to what the Buddha said about jhana in this sutta: I am simply amazed by those whose views are so strongly clung to that they even deny what the Buddha says straight out! I have never seen such tenacious clinging to view as I see here among many on DSG, clinging so strong as to deny the Buddhadhamma itself. ----------------------------------------------------- peace, connie =========================== With metta, Howard #93669 From: "connie" Date: Thu Dec 18, 2008 7:52 pm Subject: Re: Suttas in which the Buddha held back the deep teaching? nichiconn Hi Howard, my point had more to do with the fact of him being a Bodhisatta than anything to do with "meditation" per se. you had mentioned it being mundane. my real interest in this thread is just the title... I like that we're told so and so many people attained to such and such stage when they heard this & that sutta but consider myself to be one of the dullards who must stay after class and listen more... commentaries. i am glad you are happy in what you do. how's the knee holding out, btw? peace, connie #93670 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Dec 18, 2008 10:07 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The speed of past cittas sarahprocter... Hi Alberto, You wrote a very clear (imho) explanation about the planes of cittas etc in #93541. One small 'quibble': --- On Mon, 15/12/08, sprlrt wrote: A:>But the development of the conditions for the arising of lokuttara/supramund ane cittas (the enlightment factors) require the presence of rupa as well, because rupa dhammas needs to be distinguished and separated from nama dhammas, as anatta and through the mind door, this is the first stage of vipassana nana, namarupa pariccheda, before panna can progress any further. Which explains why the Buddha was born as a human being, instead than as a brahma god. So develop your jhanas responsibly, you might end up stuck in an immaterial existence, which is still samsara, for aeons :-) ... S: What you say is true for the arising of the sotapatti magga and phala cittas (and as you go on to point out for vipassana nanas before this and for the Buddha's birth, for the reasons you clearly explain). However, for the arising of higher lokuttara cittas, as I recall, the 'rule' no longer applies, because the understanding which clearly knows namas and rupas has already developed to the stage of the eradication of all wrong views about them (at sotapanna). This might all be implied in what you wrote.....as I said, a minor 'quibble' or additional comment to what was a very clear and helpful message. Metta, Sarah ========= #93671 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Dec 18, 2008 10:21 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: how to view the self sarahprocter... Hi Robert A & Ken H, Robert, I'm glad to read your contributions again including the following good question: ------------ ---- RA: > Please elaborate on what you were referring to below as an inherently pleasant rupa. ------------ -------- S: This was followed by Ken's detailed answer (#93380) which I thought was excellent in every point and aspect. I'll only repeat some of the first parts for now: K:> As you will no doubt agree, good kamma bears good fruit and bad kamma bears bad fruit. The relevant texts have been discussed here many times. According to my understanding 'fruit' refers to pleasant and unpleasant (or desirable and undesirable) sense objects. And I think 'bearing' refers to the *experiencing* of such objects. So vipaka is a moment of sense-consciousness in which a pleasant or unpleasant object is expereinced. And this experience is conditioned by past kamma. ... K:> In a moment of vipaka the citta and cetasikas that experience the object always experience it in accordance with its inherent nature. This includes'vipaka feelings.' At the body door a pleasant body- sense rupa will be experienced with a degree of pleasant feeling, and an unpleasant body-sense rupa will be experienced with a degree of unpleasant feeling. (There is never any kusala or akusala kamma involved in vipaka, but there can be these pleasant and unpleasant feelings.) >At the four other sense-doors, the impact of the rupa is not strong enough to condition pleasant and unpleasant feelings, and so the feeling (vedana-cetasika) is always neutral at those doors. >Even so, all sense rupas are inherently pleasant or unpleasant. Mind- consciousness (as distinct from sense-consciousness ) will usually react with craving for pleasant objects and aversion for unpleasant objects (although this is not always the case). This happens even before there has been any conceptualising about the object. It happens in response to the object's inherent nature. ------------ ------ S: You'll do us all a favour by continuing your discussions together....good questions are the best condition for good answers, as I see it (by natural decisive support condition :-)). Metta, Sarah ===== #93672 From: "sprlrt" Date: Thu Dec 18, 2008 11:27 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The speed of past cittas sprlrt Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Alberto, > > You wrote a very clear (imho) explanation about the planes of cittas etc in #93541. One small 'quibble': > > --- On Mon, 15/12/08, sprlrt wrote: > > A:>But the development of the conditions for the arising of > lokuttara/supramund ane cittas (the enlightment factors) require the > presence of rupa as well, because rupa dhammas needs to be > distinguished and separated from nama dhammas, as anatta and through > the mind door, this is the first stage of vipassana nana, namarupa > pariccheda, before panna can progress any further. Which explains why > the Buddha was born as a human being, instead than as a brahma god. > So develop your jhanas responsibly, you might end up stuck in an > immaterial existence, which is still samsara, for aeons :-) > ... > S: What you say is true for the arising of the sotapatti magga and phala cittas (and as you go on to point out for vipassana nanas before this and for the Buddha's birth, for the reasons you clearly explain). > > However, for the arising of higher lokuttara cittas, as I recall, the 'rule' no longer applies, because the understanding which clearly knows namas and rupas has already developed to the stage of the eradication of all wrong views about them (at sotapanna). > > This might all be implied in what you wrote.....as I said, a minor 'quibble' or additional comment to what was a very clear and helpful message. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ========= > Thanks for your comments, yes, this is also my reading, panna has to know each single nama and sabhava rupa dhamma in details to be able to condition the arising of sotapatti magga and phala cittas and after that rupa is no longer required by panna for its development. Alberto #93673 From: "sprlrt" Date: Fri Dec 19, 2008 2:57 am Subject: Re: Suttas in which the Buddha held back the deep teaching? sprlrt Hi Alex (and Connie), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > > Hello all, > > But the Buddha did NOT say that his Jhana was only for Bodhisattas. The Buddha attained, in succession, the four stages of enlightenment under the bhodi tree. The eradication, complete and for good, of the first three fetters tying sentient beings to samsara, ditthi (wrong views about the self and wrong views about the practice), and also vicikiccha, doubts about the dhammas, can take place only at the first stage of enlightenment, sotapatti magga and phala. The unenlightened prince Gotama, the future Buddha, developed and attained the jhanas (that weren't his but of his teachers and that were already known and attained long before the Buddha set in motion the wheel of Dhamma) before his enlightenment, at a time he presumedly still had wrong views about the self, the practice, and the dhammas. > He said that it IS the path to awakening, My reading is that he said that the only path to awakening is satipatthana. > implying that it is path for us as well. > > He also often has recommended Anapanasati to many people thus > challenging the opinion of his breath meditation being 'different' or only for select few. > My reading is that he "recommended" anapanasati only to those who were already "familiar" with satipatthana. Alberto #93674 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Dec 19, 2008 1:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Suttas in which the Buddha held back the deep teaching? upasaka_howard Hi, Connie - In a message dated 12/18/2008 10:53:06 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, nichicon@... writes: Hi Howard, my point had more to do with the fact of him being a Bodhisatta than anything to do with "meditation" per se. you had mentioned it being mundane. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: I understand, Connie. Thank you for clarifying. It was "just" the regular jhana under the rose-apple tree, though. (I happen to think that the jhana the Buddha engaged in and taught was not the same as the fully absorptive states taught by others. I base that on several suttas and on my own experience. Of course I do realize that I could be wrong mistaken.) ------------------------------------------------- my real interest in this thread is just the title... I like that we're told so and so many people attained to such and such stage when they heard this & that sutta but consider myself to be one of the dullards who must stay after class and listen more... commentaries. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: We're all relative dullards here. If there are any full-fledged ariyans here, I think they're doing a good job at playing at being clinging, craving worldlings! ;-)) ------------------------------------------------- i am glad you are happy in what you do. ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Thank you, Connie. :-) At the least, it is good for me. I seem to be on a good track, and though I'm far from the destination, going in what seems to be the right direction and being fairly consistent with it does make me happy. I'm a better person than I used to be - much easier to be around. Just ask my wife! ;-)) ------------------------------------------------- how's the knee holding out, btw? ----------------------------------------------- Howard:] Wow! You have a good memory! And thank you for thinking about me! :-) It's doing fine. My orthopedic surgeon, who also did excellent surgery, far more extensive, on my right shoulder a few years back, is really good. I play tennis regularly without a problem, and my game's actually getting to be quite decent these days! I only started playing, with no training, about 2 1/2 years ago, interrupted by periods of extended inactivity due to the shoulder & later the knee. BTW, a pop-Buddhist note on the tennis: I've discovered first hand that my game goes smoothly and well, with quick and well-targeted response, EXCEPT when "Howard" is present! Whenever I start thinking and start planning what "I" should do, instead of just maintaining alert attention as the play goes on, I'm almost *certain* to mess up! ;-)) ------------------------------------------------ peace, connie ========================== With metta, Howard #93675 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Dec 19, 2008 6:43 am Subject: [dsg] Re: On Concepts jonoabb Hi Howard > If I may butt in: As I see it, and as I understand TG to see it, > substantialization of dhammas is seeming to find self/essence/core/ own-being in > them. It is a species of atta-view. It's clear that taking a dhamma for self is wrong view or, as you put it, a species of atta-view. But the rest of what you say here is not so easy to respond to. You talk about "finding essence in dhammas", "finding core in dhammas", and "finding own-being in dhammas". These are not turns of phrase I'm familiar with, so I'd have to ask you to explain further before I could agree or otherwise. For example, what is meant by the expression "own-being"? What do you understand by TG's expression of something being seen as "having nothing of itself"? As far as "taking a dhamma for self" is concerned, which we both agree to be wrong view, what is the point of introducing the term "substantialization of dhammas" (or "reification of dhammas") to refer to this? > It is not a bogeyman, but something truly to > look out for, for it is contrary to dependent origination. The Buddha > repeatedly hammered against true existence as an extreme (for example in the > Kaccayanagotta Sutta) and against substantialism (as in the Uraga Sutta). Here again I can't comment unless you explain the significance of "true existence" to the "substantialism" point, since neither of these terms are familiar to me and it's not really possible to infer from the context how either of them is being used. Jon #93676 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Dec 19, 2008 6:44 am Subject: [dsg] Re: On Concepts jonoabb Hi Howard > Another important sutta clearly arguing against true-existence view is > the Channa Sutta, and another sutta screaming out against substantialism is > the Phena Sutta (with explicit regard to paramattha dhammas), to wit: > > Form is like a glob of foam; > feeling, a bubble; > perception, a mirage; > fabrications, a banana tree; > consciousness, a magic trick " > this has been taught > by the Kinsman of the Sun. > However you observe them, > appropriately examine them, > they're empty, void > to whoever sees them > appropriately. > > So, you tell me, Jon - doesn't the Buddha rather much makes > substantialism, in your words, "a sin"? I have no argument with the sutta passage you quote. But I'm afraid I'm still in the dark as to the meaning of (a) "true-existence view" and (b) "substantialism" or "substantialization of dhammas" (are these two the same?). It would help the discussion a lot if you could explain. Jon #93677 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Dec 19, 2008 6:45 am Subject: Q. [dsg] Re: Series Survey Quote. jonoabb Hi James > James: I don't know if you were admitting that, but that is what you > did. You said that this sutta is about satipatthana because it is > from a section of suttas all about satipatthana- that is a > generalization. ... > > However, you need to point out something within the sutta itself to > prove it is about satipatthana, not by the company it keeps. :-) I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I could not accept the notion that a sutta can be properly understood in isolation from all other suttas or parts of the Tipitaka. However, as far as indicators within the sutta itself are concerned, I think it significant that the All being described is described in terms of an individual's perspective of the world. If an ontological All was being described, there would be no need for it to have such a perspective. Jon #93678 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Dec 19, 2008 7:04 am Subject: Re: Lodewijk's Diary, no 4. jonoabb Hi Lukas > Dear Nina > > L: Is it good to know that we cannot induce such understanding? > > Is it good to know, there is no "person", when akusala arises? > I generally think a lot about "my akusala" and have regrets about it. > But isn't it just thinking? We usually think about ourselfs, that we > are such and such, we should be polite and generous, but ist it just > thinking? thinking with akusala? The reality, which happens now? > Good to know? Just butting in to say that regrets, like doubts, are inevitable. Not sure if you noticed my earlier reply to your post mentioning doubts, so I give the link below. Jon http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/93216 #93679 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Dec 19, 2008 2:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Suttas in which the Buddha held back the deep teaching? upasaka_howard Hi, Alberto (and Alex & Connie) - In a message dated 12/19/2008 5:57:40 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, sprlrt@... writes: Hi Alex (and Connie), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > > Hello all, > > But the Buddha did NOT say that his Jhana was only for Bodhisattas. The Buddha attained, in succession, the four stages of enlightenment under the bhodi tree. The eradication, complete and for good, of the first three fetters tying sentient beings to samsara, ditthi (wrong views about the self and wrong views about the practice), and also vicikiccha, doubts about the dhammas, can take place only at the first stage of enlightenment, sotapatti magga and phala. The unenlightened prince Gotama, the future Buddha, developed and attained the jhanas (that weren't his but of his teachers and that were already known and attained long before the Buddha set in motion the wheel of Dhamma) before his enlightenment, at a time he presumedly still had wrong views about the self, the practice, and the dhammas. > He said that it IS the path to awakening, My reading is that he said that the only path to awakening is satipatthana. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Alberto, in that sutta he was explicitly referring to the jhana he attained as a child under the rose-apple tree. There is no ambiguity in that regard. I, it happens, believe that this referenced jhana recalled by the Buddha-to-be and later, after awakening, taught by him to others, is not at all the tightly focused meditation taught him by his adult teachers and seen by him as inadequate [For why did he then remember and return to what he did as a child under the rose-apple tree?], but is an in-tandem practice that cultivates states of bright calm and wisdom leading to awakening. As I see it, the Buddha's teaching was unique not only in his being the teacher of no self, but also in his teaching a path of practice different from what others taught, including a radical difference in his teachings on meditation. Others taught sila in much the same way, and others taught similar right effort (in guarding the senses), but what is distinctively Buddhadhamma, as I see it, is the wisdom teachings of the tilakkhana (with depth, subtle nuance, and radicality going well beyond similar teachings of others), paticcasamupada (which can be viewed as containing the entire teaching), and the practice teaching of proper samadhi (radically different from the meditative teachings of his contemporaries and predecessors). ----------------------------------------------- > implying that it is path for us as well. > > He also often has recommended Anapanasati to many people thus > challenging the opinion of his breath meditation being 'different' or only for select few. > My reading is that he "recommended" anapanasati only to those who were already "familiar" with satipatthana. ----------------------------------------- Howard: Why is that your reading? And why do you think that 99% of the Buddhist world is allegedly confused on that issue, including Dhamma teachers from all traditions and in all lands? I, it happens, find anapanasati to be a wonderful, satisfying practice, and I don't think I'm very special. ;-) ----------------------------------------- Alberto ========================== With metta, Howard #93680 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Dec 19, 2008 2:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: On Concepts upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 12/19/2008 9:43:39 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, jonabbott@... writes: Hi Howard > If I may butt in: As I see it, and as I understand TG to see it, > substantialization of dhammas is seeming to find self/essence/core/ own-being in > them. It is a species of atta-view. It's clear that taking a dhamma for self is wrong view or, as you put it, a species of atta-view. But the rest of what you say here is not so easy to respond to. You talk about "finding essence in dhammas", "finding core in dhammas", and "finding own-being in dhammas". These are not turns of phrase I'm familiar with, so I'd have to ask you to explain further before I could agree or otherwise. For example, what is meant by the expression "own-being"? What do you understand by TG's expression of something being seen as "having nothing of itself"? -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Jon, I've clarified this so many times! This terminology reflects a perspective diametrically opposite from that of the dependent origination and insubstantialism expressed in such suttas as the Kaccayanagotta Sutta, the Channa Sutta, the Nalakalapiyo Sutta, the Uraga Sutta, and the Phena Sutta. ------------------------------------------------ As far as "taking a dhamma for self" is concerned, which we both agree to be wrong view, what is the point of introducing the term "substantialization of dhammas" (or "reification of dhammas") to refer to this? > It is not a bogeyman, but something truly to > look out for, for it is contrary to dependent origination. The Buddha > repeatedly hammered against true existence as an extreme (for example in the > Kaccayanagotta Sutta) and against substantialism (as in the Uraga Sutta). Here again I can't comment unless you explain the significance of "true existence" to the "substantialism" point, since neither of these terms are familiar to me and it's not really possible to infer from the context how either of them is being used. ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Jon, I cannot say anything more than what I've already said in hundreds of posts and what I have written above. And I am quite certain, based on experience, that a whole dissertation from me wouldn't dissuade you in the slightest from your perspective on "realities." So, I find it the better part of wisdom for me to not persist further in my attempts. ------------------------------------------------- Jon =========================== With metta, Howard #93681 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Dec 19, 2008 9:04 pm Subject: Q. [dsg] Re: Series Survey Quote. buddhatrue Hi Jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > > > However, you need to point out something within the sutta itself to > > prove it is about satipatthana, not by the company it keeps. :-) > > I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I could not > accept the notion that a sutta can be properly understood in > isolation from all other suttas or parts of the Tipitaka. James: Okay, your choice. But I think it is a rather odd choice. The Tipitaka isn't a book that the Buddha published all at once which the reader is supposed to cross reference the contents to determine meaning. The Buddha would speak one sutta at a time, over a 45-year period. Those listening to this sutta may or may not have heard past suttas. Therefore, I do believe that each sutta contains all the information within itself to determine its meaning and its purpose. The organization of the Tipitaka wasn't completed until the passing away of the Buddha, so there is nothing inherently 'telling' about how the Nikayas are organized. > > However, as far as indicators within the sutta itself are concerned, > I think it significant that the All being described is described in > terms of an individual's perspective of the world. If an ontological > All was being described, there would be no need for it to have such a > perspective. James: Okay, well this is an interesting argument. If the Buddha didn't describe "The All" from an individual perspective, how else could he describe it? In ancient Chinese, The All is described as "The 10,000 things". Of course, there are more than 10,000 things, but that term is used with the understanding that it is supposed to describe The All. If the Buddha didn't break down The All into more simple terms of the six senses and their objects, he would have to list all of the things which exist. That would be impossible as the list would be endless. And, granted, this isn't a very strong ontological statement from the Buddha. It is a very brief sutta with very little explanation. He wasn't that interested in describing the universe. However, it is an ontological statement, of that I have no doubt. Metta, James #93682 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Dec 19, 2008 8:53 pm Subject: EGO Empty! bhikkhu0 Friends: All is Empty of any Self, Ego, I, Me, & Identical Identity! Once the Venerable Ananda approached the Blessed One and asked him: Venerable Sir, it is said: Empty is the world, empty is the world... In what way, Venerable Sir, is it, that this world is Empty? It is, Ananda, because it is empty of a self and of what belongs to a self, that it is said, the world is empty... And what is it, which is empty of any self and of what belongs to a self? The eye, all forms, visual consciousness, eye-contact and all the feelings arised caused by eye-contact, are empty of any self, and empty of what belongs to a self... The ear, all sounds, auditory consciousness, ear-contact, and all feelings arised caused by ear-contact, are empty of any self, and empty of what belongs to a self... The nose, all smells, olfactory consciousness, nose-contact, feeling arised from smelled contact, the tongue, all flavours, all gustatory consciousness, tongue-contact, all feeling arised by tasting, the body, all forms of touch, all tactile consciousness, body-contact, all feelings arised caused by body contact, that too is empty of any self, and of what belongs to any self... The mind is empty of any self. All thoughts & ideas are empty of any self. Mental consciousness is empty of any self. Mental-contact is empty of self. Whatever feeling arised caused by any mental-contact, that too is empty of any self, and of what belongs to any self... It is, Ananda, because all this is empty of any self & of what belongs to any even assumed made-up concept of self, that it is said: Empty is this world... An inflated void is any concept of "I", "Me", "Mine" & "Self" .... Though outwardly different, are all beings internally empty of any same self! Source: The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book IV [54] Section 35: On The 6 Senses. Empty is the World: 85. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest * Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka :-) http://What-Buddha-Said.net EGO Empty! #93683 From: "connie" Date: Fri Dec 19, 2008 10:30 pm Subject: Howard Revisited nichiconn i am glad you are happy in what you do. ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Thank you, Connie. :-) At the least, it is good for me. I seem to be on a good track, and though I'm far from the destination, going in what seems to be the right direction and being fairly consistent with it does make me happy. I'm a better person than I used to be - much easier to be around. Just ask my wife! ;-)) ------------------------------------------------- maybe i'd better just take your word for it! i admit i've sometimes felt sorry for her :), admiring her patience. your own deva! i do not mock the gods... much. i forget how degenerate i am. talk later. peace, connie obligatory buddhist content/disclaimer: vism xvii,162. ** So it is a mere material and immaterial state, arising when it has obtained its conditions, that is spoken of, saying that it comes into the next becoming; it is not a lasting being, [554] not a soul. And it has neither transmigrated from the past becoming nor yet is it manifested here without cause from that. 163. We shall explain this by the normal process of human death and rebirth-linking. ** the fine print: * When in the past becoming a man near to a natural or violent death is unable to bear the onset of the unbearable daggers of the [painful] feelings that end in death as they sever the ligatures of the joints in all the limbs, his body gradually withers like a green palm leaf lying in the glare of the sun, and when the faculties of the eye, etc., have ceased and the body faculty, mind faculty, and life faculty remain on in the heart-basis alone, then consciousness, which has as its support the heart-basis alone still remaining at that moment, either occurs contingent upon some kamma classed as 'weighty', 'repeated', performed 'near' [to death] or previously {28} in other words, the formation that has obtained the remaining conditions, or contingent upon the objective field made to appear by the kamma, in other words, the sign of the kamma or sign of the destiny. {29} And while it is occurring thus, because craving and ignorance have not been abandoned, craving pushes it and the conascent formations fling it forward {30} on that objective field, the dangers in which are concealed by ignorance. And while, as a continuous process, {31} it is being pushed by craving and flung forward by formations, it abandons its former support, like a man who crosses a river by hanging on to a rope tied to a tree on the near bank, and, whether or not it gets a further support originated by kamma, it occurs by means of the conditions consisting only in object condition, and so on. {31} 'As a continuous process consisting of death, rebirth-linking, and the adjacent consciousnesses' (Pm.617). #93684 From: "sprlrt" Date: Sat Dec 20, 2008 12:06 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The speed of past cittas sprlrt --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sprlrt" wrote: > ... panna has to > know each single nama and sabhava rupa dhamma in details to be able to > condition the arising of sotapatti magga and phala cittas and after > that rupa is no longer required by panna for its development. > Correction after reading Nyanatiloka dictionary, Samyojana (fetters) entry: Seven times at most (sotapanna) and once returner (sakadagami) refer to the times these ariyas still have to be born in a kama (sugati) bhumi, because of the 4th and 5th of the fetters (kama raga, sensous craving and vyapada, ill-will) are only weakened by the correspondig magga vithi and phala. Anagami, no returners (to kama planes), have destroyed these two fetters and are reborn for the last time in a rupa or arupa plane, where they attain arahatship. Alberto #93685 From: "sprlrt" Date: Sat Dec 20, 2008 12:08 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Suttas in which the Buddha held back the deep teaching? sprlrt Hi Howard, ... H: I, it happens, believe that this referenced jhana recalled by the Buddha-to-be and later, after awakening, taught by him to others, is not at all the tightly focused meditation taught him by his adult teachers and seen by him as inadequate [For why did he then remember and return to what he did as a child under the rose-apple tree?], but is an in-tandem practice that cultivates states of bright calm and wisdom leading to awakening. ... A two-lane path then :-) ... H: And why do you think that 99% of the Buddhist world is allegedly confused on that issue, including Dhamma teachers from all traditions and in all lands? ... 99% and it can only grow... no use complaining though, it's part of the Dhamma deal. Alberto #93686 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Dec 20, 2008 12:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Howard Revisited nilovg Dear Connie, Op 20-dec-2008, om 7:30 heeft connie het volgende geschreven: > 'As a continuous process consisting of death, rebirth-linking, and > the adjacent consciousnesses' (Pm.617). ------- N: I just continue, reposting my conclusion to this part: Conclusion: It is emphasized in the foregoing that not a person is reborn, but that there are only nama and rupa arising and falling away. The dying-consciousness is a citta and it is immediately succeeded by the next citta which is the rebirth-consciousness. This happens as it were in one continuity. As we read, (162) it is not a lasting being, not a soul. And it has neither transmigrated from the past becoming nor yet is it manifested here without cause from that. The Tiika refers to a text of the Middle Length Sayings (I, no 38), Greater Discourse on the Destruction of Craving. The monk Sati thought that this consciousness itself runs on, fares on, not another. We read that the Buddha explained to him about citta that arises because of its appropriate conditions. He explained that if citta arises because of eye and visible object it is known as seeing- consciousness, and so on for the other classes of cittas. There are different types of cittas arising because of different conditions. Not a person transmigrates from the past life to the present life, and so long as there are conditions there will be rebirth. What happens at the moments of dying and rebirth is not different from wat occurs right now: citta falls away and it is succeeded by a following citta. Nobody can control rebirth, it is conditioned by kamma. -------- Nina. #93687 From: "Antony Woods" Date: Sat Dec 20, 2008 12:29 am Subject: Sirens + Just Seeing book antony272b2 Hi Sarah, Jon, Herman, Howard, Group, There was an interesting discussion here on dsg in June 08 about noting sirens as just hearing during my meeting in Sarah and Jon in Sydney c.2005. There was discussion here about whether that was an uncompassionate reaction. I suggested that the alternative to noting "hearing, hearing" was to say "Oh No! A siren! Quick, let's radiate some compassion!" (apologies to people here who've had to ring an ambulance lately). Sarah, did you mean that we should stop at bare attention to sounds that are none of our business so we can maintain our mind at the task at hand? That makes sense to me. The Buddhist Publication Society in Sri Lanka just published a book called "Just Seeing" which is based on Mahasi Sayadaw practice. The funny thing about it is that it is over 100 pages! Cheers / Antony. #93688 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Sat Dec 20, 2008 2:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sirens + Just Seeing book egberdina Hi Antony, 2008/12/20 Antony Woods : > Hi Sarah, Jon, Herman, Howard, Group, > > There was an interesting discussion here on dsg in June 08 about > noting sirens as just hearing during my meeting in Sarah and Jon in > Sydney c.2005. There was discussion here about whether that was an > uncompassionate reaction. I suggested that the alternative to noting > "hearing, hearing" was to say "Oh No! A siren! Quick, let's radiate > some compassion!" (apologies to people here who've had > to ring an ambulance lately). I remember the discussion well. Your present email prompted a chain of memories ( somewhat like Marcel Proust). It was probably in 1994. My girlfriend and I were staying at my brothers house. She had a very severe asthma attack. She couldn't breathe at all. We called the ambulance. It took an eternity to arrive. We were powerless. The sound of the approaching siren was a blessing. The ambos pumped oxygen into my girlfriend and stabilised her. They raced her towards the hospital. I followed in my car. Twice on the way the ambulance, sirens blaring to warn off all other traffic, stopped. She died on the way, and then again, and the ambos stopped and revived her both times. It is of no use to radiate compassion to a siren. But there is a message in a siren. Stay out of its way. Something more critical than you is happening :-) Sarah, did you mean that we should stop > at bare attention to sounds that are none of our business so we can > maintain our mind at the task at hand? That makes sense to me. > > The Buddhist Publication Society in Sri Lanka just published a book > called "Just Seeing" which is based on Mahasi Sayadaw practice. The > funny thing about it is that it is over 100 pages! I appreciate what you are saying, Antony. It really is hilarious :-) Whilst in the vein of Proust. I had a friend called Antony at high school. Later on, he had a motor bike accident and a brain injury as a consequence. He was duly compensated to allow for his care for the rest of his life. He gave a substantial portion of that money to a Buddhist community. I have lost contact with Antony. But if my old friend Antony's parents are still having to carry the burden of his care, then I wish a pox on those Buddhists that accepted his "gift". Cheers Herman #93689 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Dec 20, 2008 4:27 am Subject: Re: Howard Revisited buddhatrue Hi Connie, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > > i am glad you are happy in what you do. > ------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Thank you, Connie. :-) At the least, it is good for me. I seem to be on > a good track, and though I'm far from the destination, going in what seems to > be the right direction and being fairly consistent with it does make me > happy. I'm a better person than I used to be - much easier to be around. Just > ask > my wife! ;-)) > ------------------------------------------------- > maybe i'd better just take your word for it! i admit i've sometimes felt sorry for her :), admiring her patience. James: I might be overreacting but I find this comment rude. You sometimes feel sorry for Howard's wife? Are you kidding me?! You know, Howard is amazed at how some of the members of this group cling to their views. That doesn't really amaze me. What really amazes me is how some members of this group seem to lack any genuine metta and compassion. That is what really amazes me! Metta, James #93690 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Sat Dec 20, 2008 4:45 am Subject: Re: PPn xii,2 sarahprocter... Dear Connie & Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > If anyone wanted to start a study corner on any particular chapter, I'd be happy to send them that, but I don't know how far "fair use" really goes. My PPn doesn't have any copyright notice in it, but I've been advised that that doesn't mean it isn't copyrighted anyway. .... S: Not having "any copyright notice" doesn't mean no copyright. As I understand, all and everything has copyright. In the case of PPn or other BPS publications such as CMA, B.Bodhi as editor, expressly gave us permission to use them for study purposes on DSG, so as long as the 'slabs' are reasonable, there's no problem. Generally for texts, I think that as long as the extracts are not too long, a para or two or three, for example, and as long as there is appropriate attribution, it's OK. The same applies to quoting from letters here or elsewhere. Metta, Sarah p.s We do keep an eye on things and very occasionally bark off-list if we think or find there's some obvious abuse of copyright, but I'd rather not discuss that line further on-list. ======== #93691 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Sat Dec 20, 2008 5:11 am Subject: Apology to Nina egberdina Dear Nina, I have written and rewritten this post many times. I'm still not happy with it. The less I say the better, I think. What is becoming clear, though, is that your husband is not what I thought he was. I will be in Holland in August. I would like nothing better than for me to travel to Den Haag, and for Lodewijk to yell at me, and for him to take the consequences of that. Please invite me. Cheers Herman #93692 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Dec 20, 2008 12:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Howard Revisited upasaka_howard Hi, Connie - In a message dated 12/20/2008 1:30:20 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, nichicon@... writes: i am glad you are happy in what you do. ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Thank you, Connie. :-) At the least, it is good for me. I seem to be on a good track, and though I'm far from the destination, going in what seems to be the right direction and being fairly consistent with it does make me happy. I'm a better person than I used to be - much easier to be around. Just ask my wife! ;-)) ------------------------------------------------- maybe i'd better just take your word for it! i admit i've sometimes felt sorry for her :), admiring her patience. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: LOLOL! (In that regard, an aunt of mine, many years ago heard me going on & on about the Dhamma, and she said to my wife, not entirely in jest, "I don't know how you take it!" LOLOL!) ----------------------------------------------- your own deva! --------------------------------------------- Howard: Indeed! :-) --------------------------------------------- i do not mock the gods... much. i forget how degenerate i am. --------------------------------------------- :-) ---------------------------------------- talk later. ---------------------------------------- Sounds good. :-) -------------------------------------- peace, connie obligatory buddhist content/disclaimer: ----------------------------------------- (Snipped by Howard! ;-)) ============================== With metta, Howard #93693 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Dec 20, 2008 5:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: oceans of time? sarahprocter... Hi Phil & Connie, --- On Wed, 17/12/08, Phil wrote: P:> For example, I love this, from the Mangala. Let's see if I can remember the Pali - I have memorized some of it because of the deliciousness of the sound as well as the comfort/encourageme nt. patirupa desa vaaso ca pubbe ca kata punnataa atta samma panidi ca etam mangalan uttaman to live in a suitable place to have done meritous deeds in the past to behave properly in mind and body that is the greatest blessing. I just wrote that English out of remembering the gist. I can't remember for sure what "atta samma panidi ca" means but I know it has to do with resolving to have virtuous behaviour. .... S: Good memory work and comments, I thought. From Nanamoli's transl. of Khuddhakapaa.tha (Minor Readings) for the book-worms: "[Pa.tiruupadesavaaso ca pubbe ca katapu~n~nataa Attasammaapa.nidhi ca: etam mangalam uttama"m] "....Herein, in the third stanza, to start with, 'befitting' (pa.tiruupa)[means] favourable. 'Places' (desa): village, town, city, country; and, in fact, any locality inhabited by creatures. 'Living' (vaaso): living there. " 'In the past' (pubbe): before, in previous births. "Having...made merit (katapu~n~nataa): having stored up, profitable [action]. " 'Self' (atta) is what cognizance is called, or else it is the whole selfhood. 'Right direction in......guidance (sammaapa.nidhi): right directing (pa.nidahana), of that self; prompting, placing, is what is meant....." S: Extracts from the commentary on this: "What is called 'living in befitting places (pa.tiruupadesavaaso) is living where the four kinds of assembly are found, where the grounds for making merit beginning with giving exist (see e.g. D iii 218), and where the Master's Dispensation with its nine factors (see e.g. M i 133) is in evidence; Living there is called a good omen because it is a condition for creatures' making merit." <....> "The fact of having in past births stored up profitable [action] contingent upon [honouring] Enlightened Ones, Hermit Enlightened Ones and those with taints exhausted is called 'having in the past made merit (pubbe katapu~n~nataa). That is a good omen too. Why? Because, after seeing the Enlightened One or a Hermit Enlightened One fact-to-face, or after hearing even a four-line stanza in the presence of an Enlightened One or his disciple, Arahantship can be reached in the end. And when a human being has had previous practice so that the root of what is profitable is prominent in him (see e.g. M i 47), then by means of that same root of what is profitable he arouses insight and so reaches the exhaustion of taints, like King Mahaa Kappina and his chief queen (se Vis. Ch xii, 82/p. 393; AA. ad A i 25). That is why it is said that having in the past made merit is a good omen. " 'Right direction in self-guidance' (attasammaapa.nidhi) is [stated] thus: 'Here someone that was unvirtuous establishes himself in virtue, that was faithless establishes himself in the excellence of faith, that was avaricious establishes himself in the excellence of generosity. This is called "right direction in self-guidance" ' (cf A iv.364). That also is a good omen. Why? Because it is a cause for attaining the numerous benefits both ehre and now and in the life to come that are due to the abandoning of risk." S: And of course, such 'establishing' in virtue, faith and generosity will depend on the growth of wisdom, the association with the wise and past profitable deeds. I see all these blessings as being connected. ... P:> For me, the meaning of the above it that we should be very grateful to have this human birth and responsiveness to the Buddha's teaching and physical conditions to practice (to live in a suitable place) and this has happened because of meritous deeds in past lives. We are all very worthy people to be here doing this. And do we squander this blessing or fulfill it? If we "behave properly in body and mind" we work towards fulfilling the great blessing of our human birth and develop even better potential. So I am taking these parittas in a pretty shallow way, with no need for deeper commentaries than BB's simple explanation. But I'm sure I'll get my library card back someday! (What I've written here doesn't really have to do with what you posted, does it? Sorry. Just wanted to get it down because I LOVE THE MANGALAM SUTTA. (Alex doesn't shout anymore so I thought I would! :) .... S: Glad you shouted and LOVE IT TOO :). I'd like to add more on some of the other verses too. Metta, Sarah ======== #93694 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Dec 20, 2008 5:54 am Subject: Re: Suttas in which the Buddha held back the deep teaching? jonoabb Hi Alex > Both induvidials need Jhana. It is just a matter of degree of > development.Jhana forms "samadhi-indriya/bala" and samma-samadhi. > > Whether this samma-samadhi last for one second, or is semi- > continuously developed for 7-14 days (like for Ven. Sariputa & Ven. > MahaMogallana) Then I think you're agreeing that the jhana could be the samma- samadhi that accompanies the moment of path-consciousness, and nothing more. > > I'm not sure what you mean by "meditated" in this context. > > Sat down crosslegged and trained for relinquishment & burning of the > defilements (jhana). Yes, but don't forget that the burning that occurs with mundane jhana is a temporary burning (suppression) only. Jhana cannot eradicate defilements; only path consciousness can. > BULL!!! > > See mn36. JHANA IS THE PATH TO AWAKENING. JHANA IS THE PATH TO > AWAKENING.JHANA IS THE PATH TO AWAKENING. ... I understand that you feel strongly about this matter ;-)) But emphatic repetition of a point does not help to establish its correctness. In the rose-apple tree passage of MN36 the Buddha was describing the events leading to his final enlightenment. Thus, it was as the Bodhisatta that the consideration "That is indeed the path to enlightenment" occurred. It is not given as the wisdom of a Buddha, and it is not given as a point of doctrine (of universal application). The context of this thought/consideration about jhana is explained in the passage that follows in the sutta, when the further thought occurs to the Bodhisatta that there is no need to reject the pleasant feeling associated with jhana when it has nothing to do with sensual pleasures and unwholesome states. (As we know, the Bodhisatta had been pursuing ascetic practices up to this point.) > Hindrances feed avijja, especially kama asava (which Jhana burns > away). See MN#9 sutta. Please quote the passage you rely on as supporting your statement. > Understanding like money, doesn't grow on trees. Understanding will > not drop on you one day. Proper conditions must be set first. Agreed that understanding needs the right conditions. What are those conditions, as set out by the Buddha in the suttas? Jon #93695 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Dec 20, 2008 5:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] In praise of the Mangala Sutta ( was Re: Lodewijk's Diary, 2.) sarahprocter... Dear Phil & all, --- On Tue, 16/12/08, Phil wrote: >13. anaakulaa kammantaa (a harmless occupation. *this is one I want to stress in the context of this post. I have heard different translations such as "an occupation that does not cause confusion" and "works that are not left unfinished" so I don't know. But it certainly refers to right livelihood) .... S: Just interested to check the meaning of this one for now: From Nanamoli's transl. of Khuddhakapaa.tha again, PTS, "Good-omen Discourse": "Anaakulaa ca kammantaa..." "That bring no conflict (anaakulaa): anaakulaa = na aakulaa.....'Spheres of work (kammantaa) are simply work (kamma = action)." <....> "The spheres of work (kammanta) that are said to 'bring no conflict' (anaakulaa) are such spheres of work as agriculture (ploughing), cattle-keeping, commerce, etc., which, owing to [their promoting] punctuality, seemly action, industriousness, excellence of energy in rising [early], and freedom from malpractices, are devoid of any such unprofitableness as dilatoriness, unseemly action, inaction, tardy action, and the like. These are called a good omen, since, when thus exercised either through one's own shrewdness or through that of one's wife and children or one's bondsmen and servants, they are a cause for the obtaining of increased riches here and now. [S: hmmm.....certainly a blessing when no conflict and when they do lead to increased riches here and now....] "And this is said by the Blessed One 'One seemly in his acts, responsible, 'Who rises [early], will augment his fortune' (Sn 187), and 'Whose habit is to sleep by day, 'And who is seen to rise by night, 'And constantly gets drunk with wine, 'Is all unfit to keep a house. ' "Too cold! Too hot! Too late!" they say; 'And opportunities pass by 'The tyros who thus shirk the task. 'But he that heeds no more than straws 'Both cold and heat, doing men's work, 'Need never fail in happiness' (D iii 185; cf Thag. 231-2) and again 'So when a man saves up his wealth, 'Emulating the honey-bee, 'His riches will accumulate, 'Just as an ant-hill is built up' (D iii 188), and so on." S: hope you all enjoyed the quotes. Thx for the (unintended) encouragement to take my library card out:). Metta, Sarah =========== #93696 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Dec 20, 2008 5:56 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Suttas in which the Buddha held back the deep teaching? jonoabb Hi Howard > So, there it is: THAT *IS* THE PATH TO AWAKENING, he realized. Is there > some ambiguity in that, Jon? Or is this is a spurious sutta? What do you > think, Jon? There are of course no spurious suttas ;-)) Jhana was indeed the path to awakening for the Bodhisatta. Without first attaining the jhanas there would have been no final enlightenment, since a Buddha's attainment must exceed that of all other beings. See also the comments in my reply to Alex. Jon #93697 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Dec 20, 2008 5:57 am Subject: [dsg] Re: On Concepts jonoabb Hi Howard > For example, what is meant by the expression "own-being"? What do > you understand by TG's expression of something being seen as "having > nothing of itself"? > -------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Jon, I've clarified this so many times! This terminology reflects a > perspective diametrically opposite from that of the dependent origination and > insubstantialism expressed in such suttas as the Kaccayanagotta Sutta, the > Channa Sutta, the Nalakalapiyo Sutta, the Uraga Sutta, and the Phena Sutta. On the contrary! To say these expressions reflect a perspective opposite to a certain perspective found in the suttas explains nothing. They are just labels that carry a certain connotation but on closer examination are (apparently) not meaningful ;-)) Jon #93698 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Dec 20, 2008 5:58 am Subject: Q. [dsg] Re: Series Survey Quote. jonoabb Hi James > James: Okay, well this is an interesting argument. If the Buddha > didn't describe "The All" from an individual perspective, how else > could he describe it? In ancient Chinese, The All is described > as "The 10,000 things". Of course, there are more than 10,000 > things, but that term is used with the understanding that it is > supposed to describe The All. If the Buddha didn't break down The > All into more simple terms of the six senses and their objects, he > would have to list all of the things which exist. That would be > impossible as the list would be endless. > > And, granted, this isn't a very strong ontological statement from > the Buddha. It is a very brief sutta with very little explanation. > He wasn't that interested in describing the universe. However, it > is an ontological statement, of that I have no doubt. Thanks, James. As I said, I think we have to agree to disagree on this one. Jon #93699 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Dec 20, 2008 12:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Suttas in which the Buddha held back the deep teaching? upasaka_howard Hi, Alberto - In a message dated 12/20/2008 3:08:25 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, sprlrt@... writes: Hi Howard, ... H: I, it happens, believe that this referenced jhana recalled by the Buddha-to-be and later, after awakening, taught by him to others, is not at all the tightly focused meditation taught him by his adult teachers and seen by him as inadequate [For why did he then remember and return to what he did as a child under the rose-apple tree?], but is an in-tandem practice that cultivates states of bright calm and wisdom leading to awakening. ... A two-lane path then :-) ------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, a two-lane expressway! ;-) --------------------------------------------- ... H: And why do you think that 99% of the Buddhist world is allegedly confused on that issue, including Dhamma teachers from all traditions and in all lands? ... 99% and it can only grow... no use complaining though, it's part of the Dhamma deal. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: I understand your position - that this is part of the predicted decline of the dispensation. What I wrote was ironic, though. I do not believe that anapanasati is only for "the few with special accumulations." It is for all types. The only requirement is what is required for meditating in general: Enough sense to follow instructions, proper support via the cultivation of sila (including the four right efforts), the ability (and sufficient health) to learn to stay reasonably alert and attentive, and adequate tenacity to be consistent in practice. The first and last of these are the most important: Without adequate sila, there is not adequate peace of mind, and without consistency of practice, there is stagnation. ------------------------------------------- Alberto ============================ With metta, Howard #93700 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Dec 20, 2008 6:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: PPn xii,2 nilovg Dear Sarah and Jon, Op 20-dec-2008, om 13:45 heeft sarahprocterabbott het volgende geschreven: > Generally for texts, I think that as long as the extracts are not too > long, a para or two or three, for example, and as long as there is > appropriate attribution, it's OK. ------ N: Take the chapters of the Vis. (Ch XIV and Ch XVII) Larry posted, they are chapters, not the whole book, and posted in small parts. I never thought of copy right problems, but how is that? Nina. #93701 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Dec 20, 2008 1:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sirens + Just Seeing book upasaka_howard Hi, Antony (and all) - In a message dated 12/20/2008 3:30:06 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, antony272b@... writes: Hi Sarah, Jon, Herman, Howard, Group, There was an interesting discussion here on dsg in June 08 about noting sirens as just hearing during my meeting in Sarah and Jon in Sydney c.2005. There was discussion here about whether that was an uncompassionate reaction. I suggested that the alternative to noting "hearing, hearing" was to say "Oh No! A siren! Quick, let's radiate some compassion!" (apologies to people here who've had to ring an ambulance lately). Sarah, did you mean that we should stop at bare attention to sounds that are none of our business so we can maintain our mind at the task at hand? That makes sense to me. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Until we bring to bear thinking and conceptualization, we do not KNOW whether a sequence of experiences is our business or not. ---------------------------------------------------- The Buddhist Publication Society in Sri Lanka just published a book called "Just Seeing" which is based on Mahasi Sayadaw practice. The funny thing about it is that it is over 100 pages! Cheers / Antony. =========================== When we hear a gunshot sound and see a sequence of visible objects that is normally conceptualized as "a child being shot and bleeding," would it be advisable to stop at "Just sound" and "Just visible object"? There seems to be the idea implicitly expressed at times to the effect that knowing relationships through thinking is to live under delusion. As I see it, in the circumstance I described, knowing ONLY "Just sound" and "Just visible object" is to live under delusion, the delusion that sees only aspects of reality and misses critical relational information. Wearing blinders is not a requisite for vipassana bhavana. Ariyans are not unable to think. With metta, Howard #93702 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Dec 20, 2008 1:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Howard Revisited upasaka_howard Hi, James & Connie - In a message dated 12/20/2008 7:27:54 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@... writes: Hi Connie, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > > i am glad you are happy in what you do. > ------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Thank you, Connie. :-) At the least, it is good for me. I seem to be on > a good track, and though I'm far from the destination, going in what seems to > be the right direction and being fairly consistent with it does make me > happy. I'm a better person than I used to be - much easier to be around. Just > ask > my wife! ;-)) > ------------------------------------------------- > maybe i'd better just take your word for it! i admit i've sometimes felt sorry for her :), admiring her patience. James: I might be overreacting but I find this comment rude. You sometimes feel sorry for Howard's wife? Are you kidding me?! You know, Howard is amazed at how some of the members of this group cling to their views. That doesn't really amaze me. What really amazes me is how some members of this group seem to lack any genuine metta and compassion. That is what really amazes me! Metta, James =============================== James, I really appreciate your looking out for me, but I took no offense at what Connie wrote, considering it to be friendly, playful banter. With metta, Howard #93703 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Dec 20, 2008 6:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: PPn xii,2 sarahprocter... Dear Nina, --- On Sat, 20/12/08, Nina van Gorkom wrote: >S: Generally for texts, I think that as long as the extracts are not too > long, a para or two or three, for example, and as long as there is > appropriate attribution, it's OK. ------ >N: Take the chapters of the Vis. (Ch XIV and Ch XVII) Larry posted, they are chapters, not the whole book, and posted in small parts. I never thought of copy right problems, but how is that? ... S: That's perfectly fine. Metta, Sarah ======= #93704 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Dec 20, 2008 6:35 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Re: Series Survey Quote. nilovg Dear James, Op 18-dec-2008, om 1:41 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: I CAN SEE SEE SEE I CAN SMELL SMELL SMELL ------- N: What a lovely way to teach kids English. Very inspiring. People who pass that classroom have different reactions, depending on their accumulations. Some just hear the sound of singing, others think about the words. Those with a Dhamma background also react differently: some may consider what seeing is, what visible object is, or they are reminded to be aware of seeing that occurs now. Some, when their faculties are ripe, see dhammas as they really are and they may even attain enlightenment. And so it happened at the Buddha's time when hearing a sutta, suchg as this short sutta on the All. Even when hearing a few words one can be reminded of the truth and attain enlightenment when pa~n~naa has been sufficiently developed. > > ----------- > James: ... The sutta is very brief and general because the Buddha > wanted to give a very simple message: "The All" is what you > experience through the six senses, there isn't an alternative All. > The commentary to this sutta is over three times as long as the > sutta itself and very confusing. ------ N: The Co just gave all the different meanings of the all, but concluded that here the aayatanas are meant. Aayatana, this implies a meeting or association of realities. If citta arises because of eye and visible object it is known as seeing- consciousness, and so on for the other classes of cittas. There are different types of cittas arising because of different conditions. It seems very ordinary and we take it for granted, but if kamma would not produce eyesense and visible object is not impinging on that eyesense at a given moment, there are no conditions for seeing which is also produced by kamma. It is unique how they meet at the right time so that there can be all those different experiences, one by one. > > ------------ > James: > I CAN SEE SEE SEE > I CAN SMELL SMELL SMELL > I CAN SEE I CAN SMELL MANY THINGS. > WHEN I USE MY EYES AND NOSE > I CAN SEE AND SMELL IT ALL > I CAN SEE I CAN SMELL MANY THINGS > ... > I CAN HEAR HEAR HEAR > I CAN TOUCH TOUCH TOUCH > I CAN HEAR I CAN TOUCH MANY THINGS > WHEN I USE MY EARS AND HANDS > I CAN HEAR AND TOUCH IT ALL > I CAN HEAR I CAN TOUCH MANY THINGS ---------- N: These are all at different moments, one at a time. Considering the aayatanas more can be a condition to be aware of them without having to think. We cannot control any of them. I like this: Just empty villages. Very empty. Nina. #93705 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Dec 20, 2008 6:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sirens + Just Seeing book sarahprocter... Hi Antony, (Herman, Howard & all), --- On Sat, 20/12/08, Antony Woods wrote: >There was an interesting discussion here on dsg in June 08 about noting sirens as just hearing during my meeting in Sarah and Jon in Sydney c.2005. .... S: We had a pleasant chat together and at one point we heard a siren and you paused to listen, as I recall. I commented that only sound is ever heard, but immediately there's a story about an accident or a rushing ambulance or fire engine, hospitals and so on. 'Noting sirens as just hearing' was not the intended meaning of what I said. ... A:> There was discussion here about whether that was an uncompassionate reaction. .... S: People have an idea that an understanding of realities, such as hearing or sound is somehow lacking in compassion, but this is because they misunderstand. They think we're saying that by understanding realities, there is no longer concern about the injured or that somehow one doesn't help those in need or no longer looks for lost sunglasses. All this misunderstands the development of sati and panna very naturally in daily life - whilst listening to sirens, looking for sun-glasses, getting upset at work or whatever circumstance we find ourselves in. Regardless of the circumstances, the realities are still just those of the 5 khandhas. Still, what is experienced through the 5 senses are only the 7 rupas of visible object, sound, smell, taste and the 3 tangible objects of temperature, hardness/softness and motion. .... A:> I suggested that the alternative to noting "hearing, hearing" was to say "Oh No! A siren! Quick, let's radiate some compassion!" ... S: The truth is that at this moment (or that moment), the response is conditioned. Whether there is some noting (a kind of thinking), an idea of radiating compassion or direct understanding of a reality appearing, it's conditioned already. There's never any self to make a choice or direct any kind of response. .... A:> (apologies to people here who've had to ring an ambulance lately). Sarah, did you mean that we should stop at bare attention to sounds that are none of our business so we can maintain our mind at the task at hand? That makes sense to me. ... S: No, I meant that we live in a world of concepts. We think we hear sirens and see ambulances when in fact only sound is ever heard, only visible object is ever seen. On account of these sense objects, we build up long stories, according to our accumulated memories and perceptions. With the development of satipatthana, there is more understanding and awareness of the realities and less grasping onto the signs and details about them. In other words, there is a growth of detachment from what is conditioned now. This doesn't mean that we should try to have 'bare attention to sounds' or not think. This would indicate a kind of wrong practice, as I see it, trying to control what reality appears, again indicative of attachment rather than detachment. I really believe the Middle Path is very subtle and appreciate your continuing to explore and discuss this area, Antony. ... A:> The Buddhist Publication Society in Sri Lanka just published a book called "Just Seeing" which is based on Mahasi Sayadaw practice. The funny thing about it is that it is over 100 pages! ... S: ....And if we try to "just see" or set up a special practice to "just see", again I believe it's Self at work, rather than right understanding! Metta, Sarah ======= #93707 From: "Alex" Date: Sat Dec 20, 2008 10:32 am Subject: Re: Suttas in which the Buddha held back the deep teaching? truth_aerator Dear Jon, > "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Alex > Agreed that understanding needs the right conditions. What are those > conditions, as set out by the Buddha in the suttas? > > Jon > In the Upanisa sutta it says that Samadhi is proximate condition to seeing things as they are! http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.023.bodh.html The Blessed One said: "Develop concentration, monks. A concentrated monk discerns in line with what has come into being. And what does he discern in line with what has come into being? The origination & disappearance of form. The origination & disappearance of feeling... perception... fabrications. The origination & disappearance of consciousness." - SN22.5 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.005.than.html Note the concentration (samadhi) is asked by the Buddha to be developed and that it does allow one to see Dhamma teachings! Thus, verily, monks, concentration is the way, non-concentration the no-whither way. Samadhi Maggo, asamadhi kummaggo AN6.64 With best wishes, #93708 From: "Antony Woods" Date: Sat Dec 20, 2008 2:42 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sirens + Just Seeing book antony272b2 Hi Sarah (& Howard), Thanks for the detailed reply and clarification. I reckon that the issue of letting go of sirens is much more immediate than stories about past hearing and thinking as if they are not reinforced by repeated thinking and recycling of memories. An expression I coined for my forgiveness in Buddhism group: "The past is not static as it is constantly being added to." What I meant is that thinking about the past is not done by a self that is outside of further-mental actions but is actions itself so that memories of the 2005 incident are complicated by many copies re-recorded when it is brought up again in June & Dec 2008 . Regarding immediacy, I found this quote from the Brahmavihara Sutta: "Death, monks, is but a gap of a thought away." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an10/an10.208.than.html With metta / Antony. #93709 From: "connie" Date: Sat Dec 20, 2008 5:40 pm Subject: Re: Howard Revisited nichiconn dear James, James: What really amazes me is how some members of this group seem to lack any genuine metta and compassion. That is what really amazes me! connie: what amazes me is how mountains of metta roll out from molehills of dosa. i may learn to get along with others yet. since you were talking about teaching kids about the senses, here's something i've been thinking about the last few days: vism xv, 3: << It makes visible (ruupayati), thus it is a visible datum (ruupa); the meaning is that by undergoing an alteration in appearance (colour) it evidences what state is in the mind (lit. heart). >> peace, connie #93710 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat Dec 20, 2008 5:45 pm Subject: Re: Sirens + Just Seeing book kenhowardau Hi Howard and Anthony, ----------- <. . .> H: > When we hear a gunshot sound and see a sequence of visible objects that is normally conceptualized as "a child being shot and bleeding," would it be advisable to stop at "Just sound" and "Just visible object"? ------------------ It is panna that practices satipatthana, not we. And there is no stopping involved. A moment of satipatthana is immediately followed by other moments. ------------------------ H: > There seems to be the idea implicitly expressed at times to the effect that knowing relationships through thinking is to live under delusion. As I see it, in the circumstance I described, knowing ONLY "Just sound" and "Just visible object" is to live under delusion, the delusion that sees only aspects of reality and misses critical relational information. Wearing blinders is not a requisite for vipassana bhavana. Ariyans are not unable to think. ------------------------- The knowing of concepts (or 'relational information' as you prefer to call them) is a product of thinking. Thinking is a conditioned reality. For as long as thinking is conditioned to occur, concepts will be experienced. There is no getting away from them - even if we wanted to. And why would we? Ken H #93711 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Dec 20, 2008 6:06 pm Subject: Re: Howard Revisited buddhatrue Hi Connie (and Howard), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > > dear James, > > James: What really amazes me is how some members of this group seem to lack any genuine metta and compassion. That is what really amazes me! > > connie: what amazes me is how mountains of metta roll out from molehills of dosa. As I wrote, I may be overreacting, and Howard seems to think so. So nevermind. (However, this comment also leads me to think that I wasn't too far off the mark.) Metta, James ps. I will address this issue of metta and the members of the Bangkok group in another post. #93712 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Dec 20, 2008 6:16 pm Subject: Re: Sirens + Just Seeing book buddhatrue Hi All, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Antony Woods" wrote: > > Hi Sarah, Jon, Herman, Howard, Group, > > There was an interesting discussion here on dsg in June 08 about > noting sirens as just hearing during my meeting in Sarah and Jon in > Sydney c.2005. There was discussion here about whether that was an > uncompassionate reaction. I suggested that the alternative to noting > "hearing, hearing" was to say "Oh No! A siren! Quick, let's radiate > some compassion!" (apologies to people here who've had > to ring an ambulance lately). Sarah, did you mean that we should stop > at bare attention to sounds that are none of our business so we can > maintain our mind at the task at hand? That makes sense to me. Satipatthana and the brahma viharas are not mutually exclusive. It is from a foundation of metta, compassion, karuna, and equanimity that satipatthana is supposed to occur. Then one doesn't have to decide: should i just note sound or should I radiate compassion. One automatically radiates compassion while noting the sound. The enlightened mind is luminous and compassionate, not luminous and cold. Metta, James #93713 From: "connie" Date: Sat Dec 20, 2008 6:25 pm Subject: Re: Howard Revisited nichiconn Howard: James, I really appreciate your looking out for me, but I took no offense at what Connie wrote, considering it to be friendly, playful banter. connie: whew! thanks, Howard. I'd hoped you would. I also hope it doesn't offend you that I think we have more in common than we might like to admit at this point because of the way our views on so many things seem so diametrically opposed & so many of our conversations have been troublesome. I'm sure we're coming around to having some great conversations. Sorry to be such an awkward ass. lol - your aunt! good she could hear Dhamma, no matter how unbearable. "the poison drum relationship", some call it... basically, the seeds are planted and some once upon a time, the poison is known for the medicine it is. later, friend. connie #93714 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Dec 20, 2008 5:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Howard Revisited upasaka_howard Hi, Connie (and James) - In a message dated 12/20/2008 9:26:16 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, nichicon@... writes: Howard: James, I really appreciate your looking out for me, but I took no offense at what Connie wrote, considering it to be friendly, playful banter. connie: whew! thanks, Howard. I'd hoped you would. ------------------------------------- Howard: :-) ------------------------------------ I also hope it doesn't offend you that I think we have more in common than we might like to admit at this point because of the way our views on so many things seem so diametrically opposed & so many of our conversations have been troublesome. ------------------------------------- Howard: I love having things in common, so if it is so that there's much commonality, that is great, and for sure your thinking so doesn't offend! --------------------------------------- I'm sure we're coming around to having some great conversations. Sorry to be such an awkward ass. ------------------------------------ Howard: Never say that, Connie! ------------------------------------ lol - your aunt! good she could hear Dhamma, no matter how unbearable. ------------------------------------ Howard: ;-)) ---------------------------------- "the poison drum relationship", some call it... basically, the seeds are planted and some once upon a time, the poison is known for the medicine it is. ----------------------------------- Howard: I hope that is indeed so. She is a wonderful person and was a terrific sister to my mom who was a decade her senior, my aunt caring for her with much love. My aunt's in her 90's now and not at all well. If some Dhamma has been "seeded" that would be wonderful. ----------------------------------- later, friend. ------------------------------------- Howard: :-) Indeed. --------------------------------- connie =========================== With metta, Howard #93715 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Dec 20, 2008 8:06 pm Subject: Fabulous Fine Facts! bhikkhu0 Friends: Some Fine Facts: Only he is bright, who shines by himself! What is good, is really ... Good!!! What is excellent, is really ... Excellent!!! What is perfect, is really ... Quite Perfect!!! A rose is a rose is a rose ;-) Just that! Canal makers direct the water. Arrow makers straighten the shafts. Carpenters plane the planks of wood. The Clever Nobles train their Mind... Dhammapada 80 Those who meditate regularly; Those who endure enthusiastically; Those who exert much right effort; These wise ones attain Nibbāna: The supreme Peace, the sublime Bliss! Dhammapada 23 Health is the greatest gain! Contentment is the highest treasure! Certainty is the foremost helper! Nibbāna is the highest happiness... Dhammapada 204 Absolute Freedom… Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest * Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka :-) http://What-Buddha-Said.net Fabulous Fine Facts! #93716 From: "sprlrt" Date: Sun Dec 21, 2008 12:22 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Suttas in which the Buddha held back the deep teaching? sprlrt Hi Howard, ... H: I do not believe that anapanasati is only for "the few with special accumulations." It is for all types. The only requirement is what is required for meditating in general: Enough sense to follow instructions, proper support via the cultivation of sila (including the four right efforts), the ability (and sufficient health) to learn to stay reasonably alert and attentive, and adequate tenacity to be consistent in practice. The first and last of these are the most important: Without adequate sila, there is not adequate peace of mind, and without consistency of practice, there is stagnation. A vivid picture of a self trying to have control over the dhammas :-)Alberto #93717 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 21, 2008 1:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Apology to Nina nilovg Dear Herman, Op 20-dec-2008, om 14:11 heeft Herman Hofman het volgende geschreven: > I have written and rewritten this post many times. I'm still not happy > with it. The less I say the better, I think. What is becoming clear, > though, is that your husband is not what I thought he was. I will be > in Holland in August. I would like nothing better than for me to > travel to Den Haag, and for Lodewijk to yell at me, and for him to > take the consequences of that. > > Please invite me. ---------- N: Thanks for your kind post. Why an apology, you should not worry about rewriting a post, etc. As to visits, to tell you the truth, Lodewijk finds this too tiring, he said. The obligatory visits from family members is already more than he can tackle. He does not like talking very much. As to the yelling, Lodewijk would not yell at persons, and these were just clips from a diary long ago. At that time he worked ten to fourteen hours a day. So, no wonder he yelled sometimes! Best wishes, Nina. #93718 From: "Phil" Date: Sun Dec 21, 2008 1:17 am Subject: [dsg] In praise of the Mangala Sutta ( was Re: Lodewijk's Diary, 2.) philofillet Hi Sarah and Connie and Azita Thanks, Sarah, for the quotes on the Mangala. Very helpful. I won't be discussing, but please accept thanks in advance for any further posts about Mangala. I will read with interest! Thanks also Azita and Connie for your posts. I just can't discuss now! Metta, Phil #93719 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Dec 21, 2008 1:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Suttas in which the Buddha held back the deep teaching? upasaka_howard Hi, Alberto - In a message dated 12/21/2008 3:22:46 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, sprlrt@... writes: A vivid picture of a self trying to have control over the dhammas :-)Alberto ============================= View it as you wish, Alberto. I believe that you are quite mistaken on this and that you are missing out as a result - but to each his own! With metta, Howard #93720 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 21, 2008 6:25 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sangiiti Sutta Threes (34-36) , and commentary, part 1. nilovg Dear friends, DN 33.1.10(34) Threefold classification of matter: visible and resisting, invisible and resisting, invisible and unresisting. (Tividhena ruupasa'ngaho : sanidassanasappa.tigha.m ruupa.m anidassanasappa.tigha.m ruupa.m, anidassanaappa.tigha.m ruupa.m. ---------------- N: As to resisting, sappa.tigha, this can be translated as with impingement. Pa.tigha means striking against. The Co. refers to the Dhammasangani (753-758, transl. U Kyaw Khine). External rupa that is visible is visible object or colour. It is the only rupa that can be seen. All other rupas are invisible. Visible object is with impingement, it impinges on the eye-base and then there are conditions for seeing. The Co states that visible object is able to strike at or impinge on the eyesense (cakkhu- pa.tihanana-samattha). We read (Dhsg 754): As to the external rupas that are with impingement, these are the five sense-objects, and as we have seen, one of these, visible object is visible and with impingement, the other four sense-objects are invisible and with impingement. We read in Dhsg 757: < What is the external Corporeality which arises with impingement? There is visible object which causes the arising of Eye- consciousness ...p... tangible object which causes the arising of Body-consciousness. This is the external Corporeality which arises with impingement, (The five Aaramma.na and seven Visaya Ruupa).> ----- N: As to the visaya ruupas, these are seven objects, visayas. The sense objects classified as five external aayatanas can also be classified as seven objects: when we take into account tangible object that includes the three great Elements of solidity, heat and motion, there are seven rupas that are sense objects. Internal ruupa that is not visible (anidassana) are the five sensebases. These are internal and with impingement. Eyesense that is an internal aayatana is a condition for seeing, but it cannot be seen. We read in the Dhsg 756: The rupas with impingement are the gross rupas: the seven sense- objects, classified as five external aayatanas, and the five sense- bases, classified as five internal aayatanas. The Co. explains as to the second of the tripartite classification of ruupa, invisible ruupas with impingement, that these are nine aayatanas that are gross rupas: the five internal aayatanas and four external aayatanas, since visible object is excepted. As to the third of this tripartite classification of ruupas: invisible and without impingement, these are the sixteen rupas which are subtle rupas. There are twentyeight ruupas in all, and of these twelve are gross and sixteen are subtle. N: What is subtle is called far because it is difficult to penetrate, whereas what is gross is called near, because it is easy to penetrate (Vis. XIV, 73). The gross ruupas are impinging all the time, also at this moment. It seems that we can see and touch people and things, but we are clinging to an image we remember. When we touch something, tangible object is experienced through the bodysense. Tangible object is invisible. The aspect of the afore-mentioned triad can remind us of the truth. Hardness is invisible and impinging. Aayatana implies a meeting or association of realities. If citta arises because of eye and visible object it is known as seeing- consciousness, and so on for the other classes of cittas. There are different types of cittas arising because of different conditions. The aayatanas seem very ordinary and we take them for granted, but if kamma would not produce eyesense and if visible object is not impinging on that eyesense at a given moment, there are no conditions for seeing which is also produced by kamma. It is unique how they meet at the right time so that there can be all those different experiences, one by one. Before hearing about the Dhamma, we thought that a self was seeing or hearing, but through the teaching of the aayatanas we can come to understand that there are only elements that come together at a given moment so that the experience of objects can occur. The experience does not belong to a person. --------------------- Co: Tividhena ruupasa"ngahoti ettha tividhenaati tiihi ko.t.thaasehi. ... Sanidassanaadiisu attaana.m aarabbha pavattena cakkhuvi~n~naa.nasa"nkhaatena saha nidassanenaati sanidassana.m. ..... ******* Nina. #93721 From: "Scott" Date: Sun Dec 21, 2008 8:33 am Subject: Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner scottduncan2 Dear All, I'd like to study the section on lovingkindness over the next few months. I'll give the translation from ~Naa.namoli (The Path of Purification), from the PTS/Pe Maung Tin (Path of Purity), and the Paa.li. Here is the first paragraph: "The Path of Purification. "The Divine Abidings. "Lovingkindness. "1. The four divine abidings were mentioned next to the recollections as meditation subjects. They are lovingkindness, compassion, gladness and equanimity. A meditator who wants to develop firstly lovingkindness among these, if he is a beginner, should sever the impediments and learn the meditation subject. Then, when he has done the work connected with the meal and got rid of any dizziness due to it, he should seat himself comfortably on a well prepared seat in a secluded place. To start with, he should review the danger in hate and the advantage in patience." The Path of Purity. "Exposition of the Divine States. "The student who wishes to begin with the development of the Four Divine States: love, pity, sympathy, even-mindedness, which are set forth immediately after the subjects of meditation on the recollections, should first, having cut off the impediments, taken up the subject of meditation, finished his meal and driven away drowsiness due to eating, sit comfortably on a seat well arranged in a secluded spot and think on the evils of hate and the advantages of forebearance." [Brahmavihaaraniddeso Mettaabhaavanaakathaa 240. Anussatikamma.t.thaanaanantara.m uddi.t.thesu pana mettaa, karu.naa, muditaa, upekkhaati imesu catuusu brahmavihaaresu metta.m bhaavetukaamena taava aadikammikena yogaavacarena upacchinnapalibodhena gahitakamma.t.thaanena bhattakicca.m katvaa bhattasammada.m pa.tivinodetvaa vivitte padese supa~n~natte aasane sukhanisinnena aadito taava dose aadaanavo, khantiya~nca aanisa.mso paccavekkhitabbo.] Sincerely, Scott. #93722 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 21, 2008 11:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner nilovg Dear Scott, Op 21-dec-2008, om 17:33 heeft Scott het volgende geschreven: > I'd like to study the section on lovingkindness over the next few > months. ------- N: A good idea. I would like to add a quote from Kh Sujin's Perfections: < We may be forgetful of assisting others with loving-kindness, of developing mett in this way, time and again. We should support others with mett, also when they are strangers, people we do not know. If one has not yet accumulated all the perfections, none excepted, there are not sufficient conditions for the elimination of defilements. We should realize which of the perfections are still inadequately developed in our daily life. When we assist others, we should find out to what extent we have developed loving-kindness. When we compare the development of loving-kindness to the development of the other perfections, is mett developed more, less or equal to the other perfections? If we have developed the other perfections but our inclination to assist others with kindness is deficient, we should find out the reason for this. Is it because we are already pleased with our own kusala or is it because of defilements, such as conceit, clinging to the importance of self? We may think that it is not necessary to help someone else. Or, when we have given assistance to someone else we may wonder what the other person will be thinking about us. We should find out whether such thoughts are kusala or akusala. We should instead give assistance to someone without paying attention to what he thinks about us, no matter whether he rejoices in our deed or whether he blames us, because in reality he cannot harm us. What he thinks about us concerns only himself, not us. > -------- Nina. #93723 From: "Scott" Date: Sun Dec 21, 2008 11:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner scottduncan2 Dear Nina, Regarding: N: A good idea. I would like to add a quote from Kh Sujin's Perfections: "...If one has not yet accumulated all the perfections, none excepted, there are not sufficient conditions for the elimination of defilements. We should realize which of the perfections are still inadequately developed in our daily life..." Scott: Thanks, Nina. Here's one - I've been lingering in the chapter on The Perfection of Patience: "...Before we can reach the fulfilment of the perfections, we should continue to develop them with patience and endurance, life after life, and this is 'cira kaala bhaavanaa', a development which takes a long time (cira kaala). It takes a long time to develop pa~n~naa to the degree that it can eradicate defilements..." Scott: I like this 'cira kaala bhaavanaa,' Nina. Sincerely, Scott. #93724 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Dec 21, 2008 7:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner upasaka_howard Hi, Scott (and Nina) - In a message dated 12/21/2008 2:57:09 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, scduncan@... writes: Dear Nina, Regarding: N: A good idea. I would like to add a quote from Kh Sujin's Perfections: "...If one has not yet accumulated all the perfections, none excepted, there are not sufficient conditions for the elimination of defilements. We should realize which of the perfections are still inadequately developed in our daily life..." Scott: Thanks, Nina. Here's one - I've been lingering in the chapter on The Perfection of Patience: "...Before we can reach the fulfilment of the perfections, we should continue to develop them with patience and endurance, life after life, and this is 'cira kaala bhaavanaa', a development which takes a long time (cira kaala). It takes a long time to develop pa~n~naa to the degree that it can eradicate defilements..." Scott: I like this 'cira kaala bhaavanaa,' Nina. Sincerely, Scott. ============================= While perfecting all the paramitas is requisite to become a Buddha, I know of no place in which the Buddha taught that this is required for the elimination of defilements. With metta, Howard #93725 From: "Scott" Date: Sun Dec 21, 2008 12:36 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner scottduncan2 Dear Howard, Regarding: H: "While perfecting all the paramitas is requisite to become a Buddha, I know of no place in which the Buddha taught that this is required for the elimination of defilements." Scott: What is your view on this? Sincerely, Scott. #93726 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Sun Dec 21, 2008 12:48 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sirens + Just Seeing book egberdina Hi Antony and Howard, 2008/12/21 Antony Woods : > Hi Sarah (& Howard), > > Thanks for the detailed reply and clarification. > > I reckon that the issue of letting go of sirens is much more immediate > than stories about past hearing and thinking as if they are not > reinforced by repeated thinking and recycling of memories. > > An expression I coined for my forgiveness in Buddhism group: > "The past is not static as it is constantly being added to." > What I meant is that thinking about the past is not done by a self > that is outside of further-mental actions but is actions itself so > that memories of the 2005 incident are complicated by many copies > re-recorded when it is brought up again in June & Dec 2008 . > I found these comments very worthwhile. Especially "The past is not static as it is constantly being added to." And while my following comment may appear to contradict your expression, I think it serves to compliment it. The perfect past is absolute/unchangable. And without it, it is not possible to know the immediate past, which is as close to the present as is possible. Cheers Herman > Regarding immediacy, I found this quote from the Brahmavihara Sutta: > "Death, monks, is but a gap of a thought away." > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an10/an10.208.than.html > > With metta / Antony. > #93727 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Sun Dec 21, 2008 1:57 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: On Concepts egberdina Hi Jon, I have no desire to discuss this with you, because I know you will only repeat the view you hold dear. But I'm sure that the sutta formulations "changing while standing" and "arising as one thing and ceasing as another" are known to you. That you do not acknowledge that these formulations express nuances that are totally absent in the paramatha formulation is noted. Cheers Herman 2008/12/21 jonoabb : > Hi Howard > >> For example, what is meant by the expression "own-being"? What do >> you understand by TG's expression of something being seen as > "having >> nothing of itself"? >> -------------------------------------------------- >> Howard: >> Jon, I've clarified this so many times! This terminology > reflects a >> perspective diametrically opposite from that of the dependent > origination and >> insubstantialism expressed in such suttas as the Kaccayanagotta > Sutta, the >> Channa Sutta, the Nalakalapiyo Sutta, the Uraga Sutta, and the > Phena Sutta. > > On the contrary! To say these expressions reflect a perspective > opposite to a certain perspective found in the suttas explains > nothing. They are just labels that carry a certain connotation but > on closer examination are (apparently) not meaningful ;-)) > > Jon #93728 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Sun Dec 21, 2008 2:14 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Suttas in which the Buddha held back the deep teaching? egberdina Hi Alberto, > > A vivid picture of a self trying to have control over the dhammas > :-)Alberto > What a strange thing to say. Self-view, if it is present, is a function of paramattha dhammas. Paramattha dhammas have self-view, not a self. The question is why would paramattha dhammas be ignorant of themselves? Could you perhaps write something on the conditions in which self-view arises? Cheers Herman #93729 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Sun Dec 21, 2008 2:17 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner egberdina Hi all, 2008/12/22 Scott : > Dear All, > > I'd like to study the section on lovingkindness over the next few months. > > I'll give the translation from ~Naa.namoli (The Path of Purification), > from the PTS/Pe Maung Tin (Path of Purity), and the Paa.li. Here is > the first paragraph: > > "The Path of Purification. > > "The Divine Abidings. > > "Lovingkindness. > > "1. The four divine abidings were mentioned next to the recollections > as meditation subjects. They are lovingkindness, compassion, gladness > and equanimity. A meditator who wants to develop firstly > lovingkindness among these, if he is a beginner, should sever the > impediments and learn the meditation subject. Then, when he has done > the work connected with the meal and got rid of any dizziness due to > it, he should seat himself comfortably on a well prepared seat in a > secluded place. To start with, he should review the danger in hate > and the advantage in patience." I would just like to go on the record as understanding these as literal instructions, not as metaphorical descriptions. Cheers Herman #93730 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Dec 21, 2008 5:47 pm Subject: Re: Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner kenhowardau Hi Herman, -------- H: > I would just like to go on the record as understanding these as > literal instructions, not as metaphorical descriptions. --------- By "literal instructions" you mean the conventional variety that are known to common, run-of-the-mill, ordinary folk, don't you? Why are you so enamoured with them? Why wouldn't you want to learn about the kind of instruction that is known only to the wise-and-noble ones? Ken H #93731 From: "connie" Date: Sun Dec 21, 2008 5:50 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner nichiconn Herman! I'm shocked - when you said, "I would just like to go on the record as understanding these as literal instructions, not as metaphorical descriptions", was that meant as in "This [only] is the truth"? peace, connie #93732 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Sun Dec 21, 2008 6:22 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner egberdina Hi KenH, 2008/12/22 kenhowardau : > Hi Herman, > > -------- > H: > I would just like to go on the record as understanding these as > > literal instructions, not as metaphorical descriptions. > --------- > > By "literal instructions" you mean the conventional variety that are > known to common, run-of-the-mill, ordinary folk, don't you? Why are you > so enamoured with them? Why wouldn't you want to learn about the kind > of instruction that is known only to the wise-and-noble ones? By literal instructions I mean whatever it is that Ven Buddhagosa wrote. I do not think that he was so dull or dim-witted that he couldn't convey what he intended. "Then, when he has done the work connected with the meal and got rid of any dizziness due to it, he should seat himself comfortably on a well prepared seat in a secluded place. To start with, he should review the danger in hate and the advantage in patience." means what it says. Why are you so aversive to the plain instructions of Ven Buddhagosa? Cheers Herman #93733 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Dec 21, 2008 1:30 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner upasaka_howard Hi, Scott - In a message dated 12/21/2008 3:37:00 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, scduncan@... writes: Dear Howard, Regarding: H: "While perfecting all the paramitas is requisite to become a Buddha, I know of no place in which the Buddha taught that this is required for the elimination of defilements." Scott: What is your view on this? Sincerely, Scott. ============================== My understanding has been that mastering the ten perfections is requisite for Buddhahood but not for becoming an arahant. For example, Acarita Dhammapala quotes the following (from an unknown source): ___________________________ "How many qualities are there, Lord, issuing in Buddhahood?" "There are, Saariputta, ten qualities issuing in, i.e., leading to (Howard's paraphrase), Buddhahood. What are the ten? Giving, Saariputta, is a quality issuing in Buddhahood. Virtue, renunciation, wisdom, energy, patience, truthfulness, determination, loving-kindness, and equanimity are qualities issuing in Buddhahood." ___________________________ Now, in looking over what the ten paramita are, it is hard to imagine any one of them being lacking in an arahant. This, then, seems to create a contradiction dilemma. What I think may solve this dilemma is that mastering the ten perfections *does* automatically occur upon attaining arahanthood, but to be a Buddha, that mastery is required to occur *before* final awakening and is among the preconditions for Buddhahood. This seems to me likely to be the best answer. With metta, Howard #93734 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Sun Dec 21, 2008 6:29 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner egberdina Hi connie 2008/12/22 connie : > Herman! I'm shocked - > when you said, "I would just like to go on the record as understanding these as literal instructions, not as metaphorical descriptions", was that meant as in "This [only] is the truth"? > peace, > connie No, I didn't mean that. You might see a medical practitioner about how readily shockable you are. I meant that I understand Ven Buddhagosa to be conveying some literal instructions, that he is not using some secret Da Vinci code, known only by an elect few, in using words like meal, seat, secluded. If he claims that only this is the truth, you will have to take it up with him. Cheers Herman #93735 From: "connie" Date: Sun Dec 21, 2008 7:23 pm Subject: Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner nichiconn sorry, Herman, evidently i didn't ask the question right because your 'no' reads like 'yes' to me: that is, i still understand you to be saying that only the "literal" and not the "da vinci" explanation applies... i suppose you mean because this subject deals with serenity rather than insight. later, connie #93736 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Sun Dec 21, 2008 8:25 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner egberdina Hi connie, If you are going to open up the possibility that Ven Buddhagosa was actually writing in code, why stop at one possible "da vinci" explanation? The possibilities are endless. It seems to me far more parsimonious to assume that Ven Buddhagosa wanted his audience to understand what he was saying, and that he therefore wasn't writing in code. BTW, should I assume that you may be writing in code when you discuss with me? Cheers Herman #93737 From: "Scott" Date: Sun Dec 21, 2008 8:26 pm Subject: Re: Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner scottduncan2 Dear connie, (Herman), c: "... i suppose you mean because this subject deals with serenity rather than insight." Scott: Would you like to take a crack at the term: Anussatikamma.t.thaanaanantara.m? PTS PED: Anussati (f.) [...cp. sati] remembrance, recollection, thinking of, mindfulness. Kamma .t.thaana...2. occasion or ground for (contemplating) kamma (see .thaana ii.2. c.).. .Thaana (.t.thaana) (nt.)(1) Literal: place, region, locality, abode, part...2...vihaara (place of his sojourn)...(c) In this meaning it approaches the metaphorical sense of 'condition, state'...Applied meanings<-> (a) state, condition... And what about 'anantara.m?' Is this related to proximity condition (anantara-paccaya)? I'm not sure. Sincerely, Scott. Sincerely, Scott. #93738 From: "Scott" Date: Sun Dec 21, 2008 8:28 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner scottduncan2 Dear Howard, Regarding: H: "...Now, in looking over what the ten paramita are, it is hard to imagine any one of them being lacking in an arahant. This, then, seems to create a contradiction dilemma. What I think may solve this dilemma is that mastering the ten perfections *does* automatically occur upon attaining arahanthood, but to be a Buddha, that mastery is required to occur *before* final awakening and is among the preconditions for Buddhahood. This seems to me likely to be the best answer." Scott: Thanks for clarifying. Sincerely, Scott. #93739 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Dec 21, 2008 8:49 pm Subject: How2Stop the Moody-Blue? bhikkhu0 Friends: What Stops all Sadness and Frustration? Where does all mental melancholy and blue depression cease without a trace remaining? When, with the fading away & stilling of all directed thought & any sustained thinking, one enters and remains in the second jhāna absorption of assured unification of mind, merged with pleasure and joy, born of this well anchored & fixed concentration: It is right there that all mental frustration and sadness cease without a trace remaining... Therefore do beings reborn at the radiant divinity level, never feel any mental sorrow, misery or sadness, since they are continuously absorbed in this 2nd jhāna concentration... Thus they move their body of beaming light joyously around at the speed of a thought!!! They are literally feeding on this pure Joy! Enraptured & exalted by swift ecstatic bliss! ... Source: The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book V 213-4 The Abilities section 48. Thread on The Irregular Order: Uppatika 40 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest * Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka :-) http://What-Buddha-Said.net How2Stop the Moody-Blue Melancholy? #93740 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 21, 2008 11:21 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner nilovg Hi Howard, Op 22-dec-2008, om 3:30 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > My understanding has been that mastering the ten perfections is > requisite for Buddhahood but not for becoming an arahant. For > example, Acarita > Dhammapala quotes the following (from an unknown source): > ___________________________ > "How many qualities are there, Lord, issuing in Buddhahood?" > "There are, Saariputta, ten qualities issuing in, i.e., leading to > (Howard's > paraphrase), Buddhahood. -------- N: There are different degrees of the perfections: low, medium and high. That is why they can also be classified as thirty. The Bodhisatta developed them to the highest degree. As to daana, he gave away what was dearest to him: his wife and children. For us, we have to develop all kinds of kusala through body, speech and mind. The perfections are the virtues the Buddha exhorts us to all the time as we read in the Tipi.taka. He spoke many times about siila, and this can be developed together with right understanding of our different cittas. Through siila we can become more concerned for other people's welfare and we shall cling less to our own comfort and pleasure. A quote: < We read in the Commentary to the Theragth, the Paramatthadpan, in the Nidnakth, that all perfections support and enhance each other: The utmost patience in the accumulation of good qualities such as dna in order to attain the awakening wisdom of the Solitary Buddha or the awakening wisdom of a disciple, is called energy, viriya. Endurance with regard to anger is called patience, khanti. Generous deeds, the undertaking of moral conduct, sla, and so on, and the abstention from speech that deviates from the truth is called truthfulness, sacca. Determination which is unshakable and firm so that one can accomplish what is beneficial in all circumstances, is called determination, aditthna. Aiming for the benefit of all beings which is the foundation of the practice of dna, sla and so on, is called loving-kindness, mett. Evenmindedness with regard to trying circumstances and behaviour of other beings is called equanimity, upekkh. Therefore, when there are dna, sla and bhvana, mental development, or there are sla, samdhi and pa, it can be said that the perfections of energy and so on have reached accomplishment in those ways. ------- N: Are these not good qualities all of us can develop? Note: mentioned is also the awakening wisdom of a disciple. Is that not our goal? ---------- Nina. #93741 From: "colette" Date: Sun Dec 21, 2008 10:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner ksheri3 Hi Herman, Happy Holidays to you and the rest of the group. What is a "code"? For instance what does the "code" called the "alphabet" mean? Why do children have to learn the alphabet, the code, as a means of transmitting thoughts? <....> BTW, in never knew, until a few years ago that Dion Fortune made up the word "PHANTASM". Any student of the Abhidharma could relate to that realization. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > > BTW, should I assume that you may be writing in code when you discuss with me? <....> #93742 From: "sprlrt" Date: Mon Dec 22, 2008 1:03 am Subject: Views of self sprlrt Hi Herman, H: Self-view, if it is present, is a function of paramattha dhammas. Paramattha dhammas have self-view, not a self. A: Ditthi, including sakkaya dithhi, and like all other p. dhammas, can only be noticed by sati and known by panna when satipatthana arises by conditions as nana sampayutta kusala citta and experiences ditthi as its object through the mind door, bhavangupaccheda. And in those moments only self view can be known as a dhamma, sakkaya ditthi. Most of the other times, by conditions, self is pannati, just concepts, objects of thinking by kusala (nana vippayutta) or akusala (lobha mula, dosa mula or moha mula) cittas. H: The question is why would paramattha dhammas be ignorant of themselves? A: P. dhammas arise because of conditions. Ignorance of dhammas, avijja, is one of the three akusala root conditions, akusala hetu paccaya. Panna, one of the three kusala roots, it is the only dhamma that can know all other p. dhammas, gradually dispelling avijja. H: Could you perhaps write something on the conditions in which self-view arises? A: Past habits, pakatupannissaya paccaya is the single most important condition in all mind door processes, both kusala and akusala. Ditthi arises in 4 lobha mula citta only, ditthigata sampayutta. Lobha, attachment is another root condition, always arising with avijja. Let me know if something's still unclear Alberto #93743 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Dec 22, 2008 2:57 am Subject: [dsg] Re: On Concepts jonoabb Hi Herman > I have no desire to discuss this with you, because I know you will > only repeat the view you hold dear. But I'm sure that the sutta > formulations "changing while standing" and "arising as one thing and > ceasing as another" are known to you. That you do not acknowledge that > these formulations express nuances that are totally absent in the > paramatha formulation is noted. I've noticed the recent discussion on this aspect, but I don't recall having taken part in that discussion or any earlier one on the subject. Do you have the sutta references handy? I'd be interested to take a closer look. At the moment I don't see the connection to the post of mine that you are coming in on. Jon > 2008/12/21 jonoabb : > > Hi Howard > > > >> For example, what is meant by the expression "own-being"? What do > >> you understand by TG's expression of something being seen as > > "having > >> nothing of itself"? > >> -------------------------------------------------- > >> Howard: > >> Jon, I've clarified this so many times! This terminology > > reflects a > >> perspective diametrically opposite from that of the dependent > > origination and > >> insubstantialism expressed in such suttas as the Kaccayanagotta > > Sutta, the > >> Channa Sutta, the Nalakalapiyo Sutta, the Uraga Sutta, and the > > Phena Sutta. > > > > On the contrary! To say these expressions reflect a perspective > > opposite to a certain perspective found in the suttas explains > > nothing. They are just labels that carry a certain connotation but > > on closer examination are (apparently) not meaningful ;-)) > > > > Jon #93744 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Dec 22, 2008 4:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] In praise of the Mangala Sutta ( was Re: Lodewijk's Diary, 2.) sarahprocter... Hi Phil & all, --- On Sun, 21/12/08, Phil wrote: >Thanks, Sarah, for the quotes on the Mangala. Very helpful. I won't be discussing, but please accept thanks in advance for any further posts about Mangala. I will read with interest! ... S: Thanks for the encouragement! I'd like to introduce Stanza 11 which refers to the last great blessing of not being moved by worldly conditions. During this year (as all years), everyone has experienced large or small losses of one kind or other, as well as gains, fame, ill-fame, censure, praise, pleasure and pain. We're so very susceptible to these worldly conditions of course. Anyway, back to the text from Nanamoli's transl. of the Mangala Sutta and commentary in Khuddakapatha, Khuddhakanikaya: "Phu.t.thassa lokadhammehi citta"m yassa na kampati Asoka"m viraja"m khema"m: etam mangalam uttama"m" [Phil: 35. phutthassa lokadhammehi cittam yassa na kampati (a mind that is unshaken by changing worldly conditions) 36. asokam (a mind that is sorrowless) 37. virajam (a mind that is passionless, dust-free) 38. khemam (a mind that is secure)] "Now as to 'Though by worldly ideas tempted': 'Tempted (phu.t.thassa - lit. 'touched') is contacted (phusitassa), stirred, reached. 'Worldly ideas (lokadhammaa) are ideas in (about) the world (loke dhammaa - resolution of compound); such ideas as are never reversed as long as the world continues its occurrence, is what is meant. " 'Cognizance (citta) is mind (mano), mentality (maanasa). His (yassa - lit. 'whose' agreeing with phu.t.thassa above, both being in the genitive): of a new [bhikkhu], a middle, or an elder [bhikkhu]. 'Ne'er.....shall waver (na kampeti)': neither moves nor vacillates. "Sorrowless (asoka"m): unsorrowing (nissoka), with the dart of sorrow extracted. Stainless (viraja"m): with stains gone (vigataraja), with stains erased (viddhastaraja). In safety (kehma"m): fearless, unmenaced." ... " 'Though by worldly ideas tempted. Ne'er his cognizance waver (phu.t.thassa lokadhammehi citta"m yassa na kampati)': when someone is tempted (touched), beset, by the eight worldly ideas, namely, gain and non gain [fame and ill-fame, censure and praise, pleasure and pain](D iii 260), and his cognizance does not waver, is unmoved, never vacillates, then that cognizance of his should be understood as a good omen since it brings about the non-wavering supramundane state. And whose cognizance is it that does not waver when he is tempted by them? The Arahant's, in whom taints are exhausted, no one else's at all. And this is said: " 'Just as a solid mass of rock Remains unshaken by the wind, So too, no forms, sounds, smells or tastes, No tangibles of any sort Nor yet ideas, disliked or liked, Avail to move those such as this. Such cognizance stands quite aloof In contemplating subsidence' (A iii 379) "It is only the cognizance in one whose taints are exhausted that is called sorrowless (asoka"m). That is sorrowless because of the absence of what is stated in the way beginning 'Sorrow, sorrowing, sorrowfulness, inner sorrow, inner sorriness, consuming of the heart' (Vbh 100). Some say that it is extinction (nibbaana), but that has no sequence of meaning with the line that precedes it. And just as the cognizance of one whose taints are exhausted is 'sorrowless', so too it is stainless (viraga"m) and in safety (khema"m), since it is 'stainless' with the absence of any stain of lust, hate and delusion, and it is 'in safety' because it is safe from the four bonds (D iii 230)." S: It is only by the development of satipatthana that, slowly and gradually, the 'lokadhammaa' (worldly ideas or conditions) will have less 'hold' on us, we will be less 'tempted' by them and there will be less clinging onto the 'signs and details', less proliferation about what is experienced through the senses as we read about in The Honeyball(MN 18) and other suttas. Of course, as the texts explains above, only the arahat with fully developed panna is unmoved by and such ideas or worldly conditions because there is no more delusion or attachment of any kind. 'The dart of sorrow extracted', he lives 'fearless, unmenaced' too. As I write this, I find it helpful to reflect on how swayed by worldly ideas we are all the time, even now as I listen in the background to various News items - shocked at a major medical blunder, pleased at some happy events and so on. Even now while 'by worldly ideas tempted', however, there can be awareness and understanding of just that which is seen or heard or the seeing, hearing or thinking itself. Anytime at all.... Thanks again, Phil for introducing the Mangala Sutta. If you feel inclined to share your further comments on any of the other stanzas you've been reflecting on, I'd be interested to hear them too. Metta, Sarah ======== #93745 From: "szmicio" Date: Mon Dec 22, 2008 5:02 am Subject: Re: Views of self szmicio Dear Alberto, very good answers. > H: Self-view, if it is present, is a function of paramattha dhammas. > Paramattha dhammas have self-view, not a self. > > A: Ditthi, including sakkaya dithhi, and like all other p. dhammas, > can only be noticed by sati and known by panna when satipatthana > arises by conditions as nana sampayutta kusala citta and experiences > ditthi as its object through the mind door, bhavangupaccheda. L: Here, I have a question. As you said, ~nana sampayutta kusala citta experience ditthi as object, but ditthi is just cetasika, can citta experience a cetasika as its object? I always think that cetasika cannot be an object for citta, cannot be dhammaaramana? Best Wishes Lukas #93746 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Dec 22, 2008 12:30 am Subject: Further Consideration Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 12/22/2008 2:21:34 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Op 22-dec-2008, om 3:30 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > My understanding has been that mastering the ten perfections is > requisite for Buddhahood but not for becoming an arahant. For > example, Acarita > Dhammapala quotes the following (from an unknown source): > ___________________________ > "How many qualities are there, Lord, issuing in Buddhahood?" > "There are, Saariputta, ten qualities issuing in, i.e., leading to > (Howard's > paraphrase), Buddhahood. -------- N: There are different degrees of the perfections: low, medium and high. That is why they can also be classified as thirty. The Bodhisatta developed them to the highest degree. As to daana, he gave away what was dearest to him: his wife and children. For us, we have to develop all kinds of kusala through body, speech and mind. The perfections are the virtues the Buddha exhorts us to all the time as we read in the Tipi.taka. He spoke many times about siila, and this can be developed together with right understanding of our different cittas. Through siila we can become more concerned for other people's welfare and we shall cling less to our own comfort and pleasure. ------------------------------------------- Howard: An arahant, I have confidence, would not have less than the highest in any of these. How could his/her mastery be less than perfect in any of them? Yet, fully attainting the perfections is associated with buddhas (and, perhaps, private buddhas), not arahants in general. That is the apparent dilemma. This is why I hypothesized that for a bodhisatta, full mastery of all the perfections is a requirement leading to and occuring *before* becoming an arahant and buddha, but that full mastery for one who will not be a buddha does not occur until final awakening. I must say, though, that the more I consider this matter, I find myself unsatisfied with this hypothesis of mine! Before the last of the defilements have been uprooted, whether in a bodhisatta or in one not to become a buddha, that is - prior to the final awakening to arahant, it is impossible that all the perfections could be mastered to the maximum! (For example, the perfection of wisdom would not yet have been perfectly mastered!) So, I back off from my hypothesis. It would seem that in all beings, including bodhisattas, perfect mastery of the paramis could not be achieved until they have become arahants, and with that perfect awakening, they all will be mastered maximally. So, the dilemma remains for me. (Ah, well!) --------------------------------------------- A quote: < We read in the Commentary to the “Theragåthå”, the “Paramatthadípaní”, in the “Nidånakåthå”, that all perfections support and enhance each other: “The utmost patience in the accumulation of good qualities such as dåna in order to attain the awakening wisdom of the ‘Solitary Buddha’ or the awakening wisdom of a disciple, is called energy, viriya. Endurance with regard to anger is called patience, khanti. Generous deeds, the undertaking of moral conduct, síla, and so on, and the abstention from speech that deviates from the truth is called truthfulness, sacca. Determination which is unshakable and firm so that one can accomplish what is beneficial in all circumstances, is called determination, aditthåna. Aiming for the benefit of all beings which is the foundation of the practice of dåna, síla and so on, is called loving-kindness, mettå. Evenmindedness with regard to trying circumstances and behaviour of other beings is called equanimity, upekkhå. Therefore, when there are dåna, síla and bhåvana, mental development, or there are síla, samådhi and paññå, it can be said that the perfections of energy and so on have reached accomplishment in those ways.” ------- N: Are these not good qualities all of us can develop? Note: mentioned is also the awakening wisdom of a disciple. Is that not our goal? ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Definitely! And I have no doubt that these are all cultivated in treading the ariyan steps. We should aspire and work towards all of them, mastering them to the highest level possible for us. ------------------------------------------------- ---------- Nina. ============================= With metta, Howard #93747 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Dec 22, 2008 12:47 am Subject: A Further Question About the Perfections upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and all) - 1) Is the Buddha reported to have said anywhere in the Tipitaka that perfect mastery of the ten perfections is requisite for bodhisattas *alone*? 2) Or is that a later notion? 3) Will not all arahants have perfect mastery? 4) And could perfect mastery occur in anyone without their having become arahants? At this point, my uneducated guessed-at answers to these questions are as follows: 1) No, not so reported. 2) Yes, a later notion. 3) Yes, all will. 4) No, that is impossible. Please correct me where correction is needed, and I would appreciate evidence if it is available. With metta, Howard #93748 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Dec 22, 2008 6:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The speed of past cittas sarahprocter... Hi Alberto & all, --- On Sat, 20/12/08, sprlrt wrote: > ... panna has to > know each single nama and sabhava rupa dhamma in details to be able to > condition the arising of sotapatti magga and phala cittas and after > that rupa is no longer required by panna for its development. ... S: What I was going to comment on here was that: a) we can't say that "panna has to know each single nama and sabhava rupa dhamma in detail.....". Certainly various namas and rupas have to be precisely known over and over and over again, but "each single nama and sabhava rupa" would only be known by the Buddha's omniscient wisdom, I'd think. b)After the sotapatti magga and phala cittas have arisen and wrong view has been eradicated, I think that all we can say is that it just depends on conditions what dhammas appear and are understood at any given moment. .... A:> Correction after reading Nyanatiloka dictionary, Samyojana (fetters) entry: Seven times at most (sotapanna) and once returner (sakadagami) refer to the times these ariyas still have to be born in a kama (sugati) bhumi, because of the 4th and 5th of the fetters (kama raga, sensous craving and vyapada, ill-will) are only weakened by the correspondig magga vithi and phala. Anagami, no returners (to kama planes), have destroyed these two fetters and are reborn for the last time in a rupa or arupa plane, where they attain arahatship. .... S: Good points here with regard to the sotapanna and sakadagami- see the note on anagami below. A little refinement on the details of the rebirths from CMA, IX 'Compendium of Meditation Subjects", Guide Notes to #38, #39: 1. Sotapanna (Stream-enterer) ============ "There are three types of stream-enterer: 1) One who will be reborn seven times at most in the human and celestial worlds (sattakkhattuparama). 2) One who takes birth in good families two or three times before attaining Arahantship (kolankola). 3) One who will be reborn only once more before attaining the goal (ekabiiji)." 2. Sakadagami (Once-returner) ============= "According to the commentary to the Puggalapa~n~natti there are five kinds of once-returner: 1) One attains the fruit of once-returning in the human world, takes rebirth in the human world, and attains final Nibbaana here. 2 One attains the fruit in the human world, takes rebirth in a heavenly world, and attains final Nibbaana there. 3)One attains the fruit in a heavenly world, in a heavenly world, and attains final Nibbaana there. 4)One attains the fruit in a heavenly world, takes rebirth in the human world, and attains final Nibbaana here. 5)One attains the fruit in the human world, takes rebirth in a heavenly world and passes the full life-span there, and then takes rebirth again in the human world, where one attains final Nibbaana. "It should be noted that whereas the ekabiiji stream-enterer has only one more rebirth, the fifth type of once-returner has two. Nevertheless, he is still called 'once-returner' because he returns only once more to the human world." 3. Anagami (Non-returner) ========== Rebirth is always (spontaneously)in fine-material (ruupa-loka) realms, the Suddhaavaasa (Pure Abodes), where they attain arahatta magga and phala. "The texts mention five types of non-returner: 1) One who, having been reborn spontaneously in a higher world, generates the final path before he has reached the midpoint of the life-span (antaraa-parinibbaayii) 2) One who generates the final path after passing the midpoint of the life-span, even when on the verge of death (upahacca-parinibbaayii). 3)One who attains the final path without exertion (asankhaara-parinibbaayii). 4) One who attains the final path with exertion (sasankhaara-parinibbaayi). 5) One who passes from one higher realm to another until he reaches the Akani.t.tha realm, the Highest Pure Abode, and there attains the final path (uddha"msoto akani.t.thagaami)." Thanks for helping me to consider further as always, Alberto. Metta, Sarah ========== #93749 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Dec 22, 2008 1:15 am Subject: Support for the Original Teachings and the Arahant Goal upasaka_howard Hi again, Nina (and all) - Bhikkhu Bodhi has written "It should be noted that in established Theravaada tradition the paaramiis are not regarded as a discipline peculiar to candidates for Buddhahood alone but as practices which must be fulfilled by all aspirants to enlightenment and deliverance, whether as Buddhas, paccekabuddhas, or disciples. What distinguishes the supreme bodhisattva from aspirants in the other two vehicles is the DEGREE to which the paaramiis must be cultivated and the LENGTH OF TIME they must be pursued. But the qualities themselves are universal requisites for deliverance, which all must fulfill to at least a minimal degree to merit the fruits of the liberating path." [Capitalization emphasis mine] But, with all respect, this makes no sense to me. How could an arahant, fully awakened and with no defilements whatsoever remaining in any degree, have the perfections mastered to any extent less than maximally! I suspect that the association of the full mastery of the perfections with bodhisattas alone was the result of the deleterious influence on Theravada of emerging Mahayana, an emergence which downplayed the goal of "mere arahant." With metta, Howard #93750 From: "Alex" Date: Mon Dec 22, 2008 7:32 am Subject: Re: Support for the Original Teachings and the Arahant Goal truth_aerator Dear Howard, The definative teaching on Paramis isn't really found in the older Buddhism. It belongs to later books of suttapitaka in KN. As far as I am concerend: a) Gotama became a Buddhist only when he was converted by Buddha Kassapa and within 3 lives become a Buddha. b) The Arhatship can be gained within ONE life. There was a sutta in the begining of SN that says that within one lifetimes many are freed. With best wishes, #93751 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Dec 22, 2008 3:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Support for the Original Teachings and the Arahant Goal upasaka_howard Hi, Alex - In a message dated 12/22/2008 10:32:58 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, truth_aerator@... writes: Dear Howard, The definative teaching on Paramis isn't really found in the older Buddhism. It belongs to later books of suttapitaka in KN. ----------------------------------------- Howard: Alex, would you be able to direct me to specific suttas? ----------------------------------------- As far as I am concerend: a) Gotama became a Buddhist only when he was converted by Buddha Kassapa and within 3 lives become a Buddha. b) The Arhatship can be gained within ONE life. There was a sutta in the begining of SN that says that within one lifetimes many are freed. ------------------------------------------------- Howard: In fact, in the Satipatthana Sutta, MN 10, the Buddha taught the following: "Let alone half a month. If anyone would develop these four frames of reference in this way for seven days, one of two fruits can be expected for him: either gnosis right here & now, or — if there be any remnant of clinging/sustenance — non-return. Of course, sustaining mindfulness for seven days straight wouldn't be an ability attainable without *enormous* prior training. ---------------------------------------------------- With best wishes, ========================= With metta, Howard #93752 From: "sprlrt" Date: Mon Dec 22, 2008 8:16 am Subject: Re: Views of self sprlrt Dear Lukas, L: Here, I have a question. As you said, ~nana sampayutta kusala citta experience ditthi as object, but ditthi is just cetasika, can citta experience a cetasika as its object? I always think that cetasika cannot be an object for citta, cannot be dhammaaramana? From K. Sujin Realities and concepts, p.18 "There is one other class of objects, namely dhammarammana (mental object). This class of objects can only be experienced through the mind-door. There are six kinds of dhammarammana: the five pasada-rpas (senses), sixteen subtle rpas (sukhuma rpas), citta, cetasika, nibbana, and concepts (paattis). Five classes of dhammarammana, namely, the pasada-rpas, the subtle rpas, citta, cetasika, and nibbana are paramattha dhammas. One class, the paattis, are not paramattha dhammas." A: Adding the 7 gocaravisaya rupas, that sense door processes experience before mind door ones, equals 28, all the rupas, which means that cittas of the mind door process can have any object and, needless to say, all goes according to conditions, not volitions. Alberto #93753 From: "connie" Date: Mon Dec 22, 2008 8:47 am Subject: Re: Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner nichiconn dear colette, Herman, Scott, thanks for the alphabet soup, colette; mm mm good! yes, herman, all of us speak in code... which is part of the reason we keep asking each other "what do you mean?". re: 240. Anussatikamma.t.thaanaanantara.m uddi.t.thesu pana (etc, #93721) anantara: next; adjoining; immediately following. uddisati: points out; appoints; allots; recites. it's tempting to go off on a big tangent about how the previous six anussati support the development of the ananatara four kamma.t.thaana but i'm afraid a lot of it would just be symptomatic of our joy in marvelling over how perfectly this particular language shows off how the Buddha was. but for now, it's off to shovel snow and decide whether I want to go to the food bank this morning. peace, connie #93754 From: "Alex" Date: Mon Dec 22, 2008 8:50 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Support for the Original Teachings and the Arahant Goal truth_aerator Hi Howard and all, >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Alex - > > In a message dated 12/22/2008 10:32:58 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > truth_aerator@... writes: > > Dear Howard, > > The definative teaching on Paramis isn't really found in the older > Buddhism. It belongs to later books of suttapitaka in KN. > ----------------------------------------- > Howard: > Alex, would you be able to direct me to specific suttas? > ----------------------------------------- Newly introduced concepts: Some Buddhist concepts that were not existent in the time of pre- sectarian Buddhism are: the concept of 'building paramis' or paramitas. The ten paramis are described in Theravadin texts of late origin,[65][66] while the (Mahayana) paramitas are found in the Mahayana Sutras such as the Dasabhumika Sutra and the Surangama Sutra, also of late origin. the concept of the Bodhisattva vows, which is only found in the Mahayana Sutras. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-sectarian_Buddhism On another board I've asked Ven. Dhammanando regarding where teaching on paramitas are encountered and he said in Cariyapitaka. That book is newer, later addition. You can also read DN14 about other Buddhas. No mention of Paramis or vows. Similiar in the 4 Main Nikayas. --- Scholarly opinion ------ `The Khuddaka Nikaya can easily be divided into two strata, one being early and the other late. The texts Sutta Nipata, Itivuttaka, Dhammapada, Therigatha (Theragatha), Udana, and Jataka tales belong to the early stratum. The texts Khuddakapatha, Vimanavatthu, Petavatthu, Niddesa, Patisambhida, Apadana, Buddhavamsa and Cariyapitaka can be categorized in the later stratum.'[61] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-sectarian_Buddhism > ------------------------------------------------- > Howard: >In fact, in the Satipatthana Sutta, MN 10, the Buddha taught the > following: > > "Let alone half a month. If anyone would develop these four frames of reference in this way for seven days, one of two fruits can be expected for him: > either gnosis right here & now, or " if there be any remnant of > clinging/sustenance " non-return. > >Of course, sustaining mindfulness for seven days straight wouldn't >be an ability attainable without *enormous* prior training. > ---------------------------------------------------- And in MN85 it says that some (lucky ones) may achieve Arhatship in a day! "A bhikkhu endowed with these five factors gaining the training from the Thus Gone One in the morning, for whatever cause sons of clansmen rightfully go forth homeless that highest end of the holy life, he here and now, knowing, realizing, will attain in the evening, or advised in the evening would realise the next morning." http://www.mettanet.org/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima- Nikaya/Majjhima2/085-bodhirajakumara-e1.html With best wishes, #93755 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Dec 22, 2008 4:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Support for the Original Teachings and the Arahant Goal upasaka_howard Hi, Alex - Thank you for your reply. In a message dated 12/22/2008 11:50:14 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, truth_aerator@... writes: Hi Howard and all, >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Alex - > > In a message dated 12/22/2008 10:32:58 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > truth_aerator@... writes: > > Dear Howard, > > The definative teaching on Paramis isn't really found in the older > Buddhism. It belongs to later books of suttapitaka in KN. > ----------------------------------------- > Howard: > Alex, would you be able to direct me to specific suttas? > ----------------------------------------- Newly introduced concepts: Some Buddhist concepts that were not existent in the time of pre- sectarian Buddhism are: the concept of 'building paramis' or paramitas. The ten paramis are described in Theravadin texts of late origin,[65][66] while the (Mahayana) paramitas are found in the Mahayana Sutras such as the Dasabhumika Sutra and the Surangama Sutra, also of late origin. the concept of the Bodhisattva vows, which is only found in the Mahayana Sutras. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-sectarian_Buddhism On another board I've asked Ven. Dhammanando regarding where teaching on paramitas are encountered and he said in Cariyapitaka. That book is newer, later addition. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Neither the Buddhavamsa nor the Cariyapitaka strike me as likely word of the Buddha. That aside, there doesn't seem to be made the claim that it is asserted even in them that mastering the perfections is a matter for only bodhisattas. ------------------------------------------------ You can also read DN14 about other Buddhas. No mention of Paramis or vows. Similiar in the 4 Main Nikayas. --- Scholarly opinion ------ `The Khuddaka Nikaya can easily be divided into two strata, one being early and the other late. The texts Sutta Nipata, Itivuttaka, Dhammapada, Therigatha (Theragatha), Udana, and Jataka tales belong to the early stratum. The texts Khuddakapatha, Vimanavatthu, Petavatthu, Niddesa, Patisambhida, Apadana, Buddhavamsa and Cariyapitaka can be categorized in the later stratum.'[61] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-sectarian_Buddhism > ------------------------------------------------- > Howard: >In fact, in the Satipatthana Sutta, MN 10, the Buddha taught the > following: > > "Let alone half a month. If anyone would develop these four frames of reference in this way for seven days, one of two fruits can be expected for him: > either gnosis right here & now, or â€" if there be any remnant of > clinging/sustenance â€" non-return. > >Of course, sustaining mindfulness for seven days straight wouldn't >be an ability attainable without *enormous* prior training. > ---------------------------------------------------- And in MN85 it says that some (lucky ones) may achieve Arhatship in a day! "A bhikkhu endowed with these five factors gaining the training from the Thus Gone One in the morning, for whatever cause sons of clansmen rightfully go forth homeless that highest end of the holy life, he here and now, knowing, realizing, will attain in the evening, or advised in the evening would realise the next morning." http://www.mettanet.org/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima- Nikaya/Majjhima2/085-bodhirajakumara-e1.html ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, sure. One could even say that should conditions be in place, full awakening could be attained in a second (!). (There is that small matter of aeons of preceding preparation, though! ;-)) ------------------------------------------------- With best wishes, ============================= With metta, Howard #93756 From: "Alex" Date: Mon Dec 22, 2008 10:25 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Time & conditions required for Arhatship truth_aerator Hi Howard, >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Alex - > ------------------------------------------------- > Howard: >Well, sure. One could even say that should conditions be in place, >full awakening could be attained in a second (!). (There is that >small matter of aeons of preceding preparation, though! ;-)) > ------------------------------------------------- To start with many of us already have great accumulations: a) We are born as intelligent, wise enough to study Buddha Dhamma Humans b) The teaching is still available (although some preliminary work is required to cut off later stuff from the earlier). Some of the qualities of the Dhamma are: visible here and now (sanditthiko); And not delayed and timeless (akaliko); Which I take to mean the quickness & effectivness of the Dhamma. Re the time of Developing Paramis. In MN81 future-Buddha-to-be was insulting Buddha Kassapa. To me this shows that at least parami of Patience, Loving Kindness and Equinimity were not present. It is also certain to me that the future Buddha-Gotama was NOT a Buddhist since no Buddhist would refuse to go and see a living Buddha or insult one. So even if 10 paramis are required for Buddhahood, at least SOME of them were developed by future Buddha Gotama within 3 lives. 1st) After he was converted by Buddha Kassapa 2nd) In Tusita Heaven 3rd and last) As Prince Siddhartha Historicity The Theravadin teachings on paramitas can be found in canonical books (Jataka, Apadana, Buddhavamsa, Cariyapitaka) and post-canonical commentaries which were added to the Pali Canon at a later time, and thus they are not an original part of the Theravadin teachings.[3][4] The oldest parts of the Sutta Pitaka (for example, Majjhima Nikaya, Digha Nikaya, Samyutta Nikaya and the Anguttara Nikaya) do not have any mention of the paramitas.[5] Some scholars even refer to the teachings of the paramitas as a semi-Mahayana[6] teaching which was added to the scriptures at a later time, in order to appeal to the interests and needs of the lay community, and to popularize their religion.[7] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C4%81ramit%C4%81 With best wishes, #93757 From: "szmicio" Date: Mon Dec 22, 2008 11:21 am Subject: Re: Views of self szmicio Dear Alberto > L: Here, I have a question. As you said, ~nana sampayutta kusala citta > experience ditthi as object, but ditthi is just cetasika, can citta > experience a cetasika as its object? I always think that cetasika > cannot be an object for citta, cannot be dhammaaramana? > > > From K. Sujin Realities and concepts, p.18 > > "There is one other class of objects, namely dhammarammana (mental > object). > This class of objects can only be experienced through the mind-door. > There are six kinds of dhammarammana: the five pasada-rpas (senses), > sixteen subtle rpas (sukhuma rpas), citta, cetasika, nibbana, and > concepts (paattis). > Five classes of dhammarammana, namely, the pasada-rpas, the subtle > rpas, citta, cetasika, and nibbana are paramattha dhammas. > One class, the paattis, are not paramattha dhammas." > > A: Adding the 7 gocaravisaya rupas, that sense door processes > experience before mind door ones, equals 28, all the rupas, which > means that cittas of the mind door process can have any object and, > needless to say, all goes according to conditions, not volitions. L: I think I need further explanations. Let's see. For example, there is kusala citta with pa~n~na and sati, let's call it sati sampajana. Sati is aware of cetana which arises simultaneously with this kusala citta and pa~n~na knows cetana. I understand it. It all happens in one moment.one citta. In this case we cant say that cetana is dhammaaramana for citta, do we? I dont understand how cetana cetasika can be an object for citta on its own? If something is dhammaaramana, no matter is it rupa or cetasika it must arise with citta. cetana cannot arise on its own, it always arises with other realities. cetana cannot be dhammaaramana without citta. Best wishes Lukas #93758 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Dec 22, 2008 1:09 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner kenhowardau Hi Herman, --------- <. . .> H: > By literal instructions I mean whatever it is that Ven Buddhagosa wrote. I do not think that he was so dull or dim-witted that he couldn't convey what he intended. "Then, when he has done the work connected with the meal and got rid of any dizziness due to it, he should seat himself comfortably on a well prepared seat in a secluded place. To start with, he should review the danger in hate and the advantage in patience." means what it says. Why are you so aversive to the plain instructions of Ven Buddhagosa? --------- When someone has heard the true Dhamma the world is never the same again. Even at a beginner's level it can be seen that there are really only the presently arisen paramattha dhammas. These stories of monks who go to quiet places after their midday meal are just that - stories. Regardless of whether it is satipatthana or samattha (or even leaf sweeping) practice a monk knows there is no abiding self. He knows there is no conventional practice, no one who practises and no one who receives the results of practice. There are just these presently arisen paramattha dhammas. That is what Ven Buddhaghosa is talking about. Ken H #93759 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Mon Dec 22, 2008 1:58 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner egberdina Hi colette, 2008/12/22 colette : > Hi Herman, > > Happy Holidays to you and the rest of the group. > > What is a "code"? For instance what does the "code" called > the "alphabet" mean? Why do children have to learn the alphabet, the > code, as a means of transmitting thoughts? <....> Thanks for your kind wishes. All teh best to you and yours as well. Regarding code, well, there is code as in symbols. All language is symbolic. And then there is code as in using suymbols to refer to one thing, but actually mean another. Children who go to school are taught what words mean, and how to use them. The purpose of such communication is to include. The purpose of using to code to give hidden messages is to exclude. Only initiates understand it. Cheers Herman #93760 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Dec 22, 2008 9:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and Herman) - In a message dated 12/22/2008 4:09:28 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi Herman, --------- <. . .> H: > By literal instructions I mean whatever it is that Ven Buddhagosa wrote. I do not think that he was so dull or dim-witted that he couldn't convey what he intended. "Then, when he has done the work connected with the meal and got rid of any dizziness due to it, he should seat himself comfortably on a well prepared seat in a secluded place. To start with, he should review the danger in hate and the advantage in patience." means what it says. Why are you so aversive to the plain instructions of Ven Buddhagosa? --------- When someone has heard the true Dhamma the world is never the same again. Even at a beginner's level it can be seen that there are really only the presently arisen paramattha dhammas. ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Ken, why do you take this one story about paramattha dhammas as almost the entirety of "the true Dhamma," when far more important and central to the teaching are the truths of dukkha, anicca, anatta, paticcasamupada, the four noble truths, and the relinquishing of tanha and upadana? Conceptualizing an inventory of existents held to be realities with essence and self-existence is not the way to freedom. Coming to directly know the undependable, fragile, fleeting, ungraspable, empty nature of the phenomena that you place on a pedestal with the title "ultimate reality" engraved, and learning to relinquish their hold on us IS the way. -------------------------------------------------------- These stories of monks who go to quiet places after their midday meal are just that - stories. -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Your disparagement of an integral part of the Buddha's teaching engaged in by himself and his bhikkhus, bhikkhunis, and upasakas & upasikas is just silly. No one says you have to meditate, but why try to impose your disdain on those who do? ------------------------------------------------------- Regardless of whether it is satipatthana or samattha (or even leaf sweeping) practice a monk knows there is no abiding self. ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: He has heard it, read it, talked about it, and thought about it. But if that is all, he does NOT know it. ------------------------------------------------------ He knows there is no conventional practice, no one who practises and no one who receives the results of practice. There are just these presently arisen paramattha dhammas. ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: It is a story, Ken, just a story, even though a good one. The Dhamma is not a matter of repeating a favorite story. ------------------------------------------------ That is what Ven Buddhaghosa is talking about. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: There is, I hope, more to him than that. (Oh, yeah, I just remembered - he talks a lot about meditating. Hmm, a silly man after all, eh Ken?) ---------------------------------------------- Ken H =========================== With metta, Howard #93761 From: "connie" Date: Mon Dec 22, 2008 3:11 pm Subject: Re: Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner nichiconn dear KenH, bravo: #93758! You put Nyanaponika and Karunadasa to shame with your succinctness. Nevertheless, I think it might help if we look at how they explain the story teller's art, so i'll try to corner those other two for a bit. Hope you'll let me know if they say something out of line. peace, connie #93762 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Mon Dec 22, 2008 3:20 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner egberdina Hi connie,, Now I know it for sure. You do write in code. As long as you understand your own story, I suppose.... Cheers Herman #93763 From: "connie" Date: Mon Dec 22, 2008 3:22 pm Subject: AS Time nichiconn dear friends, i think DC Wijeratna's suggestion to study the venerable Nyanaponika's "Abhidhamma Studies" is a good idea. if you've never heard of it, there are a couple of reviews on-line: http://www.buddhistethics.org/7/gethin001.html http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-PHIL/ew99068.htm Herman, I don't know whether you ever found the article about "The Omission of Memory from the List of Dhammas", but it's one of the appendixes. Some here might also be interested in the appendix on "The Authenticity of the Anupada Sutta". Maybe Howard would find something interesting in the bits on phemononology in the Preface and ch.2. An earlier edition of the book, subtitled "Researches in Buddhist Psychology" is available in full from http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/abhistudy.pdf, but i will only be posting a couple of chapters from the 4th edition (Wisdom/BPS 1998), subtitled "Buddhist Explorations of Consciousness and Time". First, ch.3, because the whole book pretty much revolves around it & then, as I promised Alex, ch.5 on "The Problem of Time". Before I get started, here are a handful of more or less related links that might also be of some interest to various members, starting with one for colette: http://www.gampoabbey.org/translations2/Innovative-alayavijnana.pdf http://www.attan.com/Time%20and%20temporality.htm ftp://ftp.cs.kun.nl/pub/CompMath.Found/Cerisy.pdf http://mjcs.fsktm.um.edu.my/document.aspx?FileName=34.pdf (neural networking) http://d.scribd.com/docs/8zrg1ft20f59ey59a4h.pdf (mass psychology) http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-ADM/picker.htm (cognitivsm) www.nguyenphucbaophan.com/nguyenphucbaophan/Sach/2007AbhidhammaCourse.ppt - apologies in advance for any links that might not work for you; they did for me... uh, hope that doesn't sound too surly. peace, connie #93764 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Mon Dec 22, 2008 3:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Views of self egberdina Hi Alberto, 2008/12/22 sprlrt : > Hi Herman, > > H: Self-view, if it is present, is a function of paramattha dhammas. > Paramattha dhammas have self-view, not a self. > > A: Ditthi, including sakkaya dithhi, and like all other p. dhammas, > can only be noticed by sati and known by panna when satipatthana > arises by conditions as nana sampayutta kusala citta and experiences > ditthi as its object through the mind door, bhavangupaccheda. And in > those moments only self view can be known as a dhamma, sakkaya ditthi. > Most of the other times, by conditions, self is pannati, just > concepts, objects of thinking by kusala (nana vippayutta) or akusala > (lobha mula, dosa mula or moha mula) cittas. > > H: The question is why would paramattha dhammas be ignorant of > themselves? > > A: P. dhammas arise because of conditions. Ignorance of dhammas, > avijja, is one of the three akusala root conditions, akusala hetu > paccaya. Panna, one of the three kusala roots, it is the only dhamma > that can know all other p. dhammas, gradually dispelling avijja. > > H: Could you perhaps write something on the conditions in which > self-view arises? > > A: Past habits, pakatupannissaya paccaya is the single most important > condition in all mind door processes, both kusala and akusala. > Ditthi arises in 4 lobha mula citta only, ditthigata sampayutta. > Lobha, attachment is another root condition, always arising with avijja. > > Let me know if something's still unclear My approach has been that if something conventionally understood can be understood in terms of paramattha dhammas performing their functions, without alteration of the meaning or becoming contradictory, all good and well. I have one or two questions regarding the significance of a momentary dhamma being a root, how to understand a word like gradual in terms of momentary dhammas, and whether past habits arise and fall with each dhamma. But they are not the important questions. The biggest issue is that I am unable to translate the process of me letting you know that something is unclear, into paramattha dhammas performing their functions. I am certainly no expert, but I can find nothing in the dhamma theory we are discussing which even allows for the well-understood notion of two individuals communicating. Can you help with that one? Cheers Herman #93765 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Dec 22, 2008 4:27 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner buddhatrue Hi Herman, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > > Hi all, > > 2008/12/22 Scott : > > Dear All, > > > > I'd like to study the section on lovingkindness over the next few months. > > > > I'll give the translation from ~Naa.namoli (The Path of Purification), > > from the PTS/Pe Maung Tin (Path of Purity), and the Paa.li. Here is > > the first paragraph: > > > > "The Path of Purification. > > > > "The Divine Abidings. > > > > "Lovingkindness. > > > > "1. The four divine abidings were mentioned next to the recollections > > as meditation subjects. They are lovingkindness, compassion, gladness > > and equanimity. A meditator who wants to develop firstly > > lovingkindness among these, if he is a beginner, should sever the > > impediments and learn the meditation subject. Then, when he has done > > the work connected with the meal and got rid of any dizziness due to > > it, he should seat himself comfortably on a well prepared seat in a > > secluded place. To start with, he should review the danger in hate > > and the advantage in patience." > > I would just like to go on the record as understanding these as > literal instructions, not as metaphorical descriptions. > I agree with you. They are obviously instructions. (and it is really funny at how absurd some members get when they argue that :- ) Anyway, what do you make of the part about "got rid of the dizziness due to it"? Usually after eating, one feels sleepy and fatigued because excess blood leaves the brain to attend to digestion. To me, this suggests that metta meditation cannot be done properly while one is tired, sleepy, or dizzy (unfocused). Also, the line about a "well prepared seat" is interesting to me. How well-prepared is that seat supposed to be? What does that mean exactly? (BTW, I know that these question will put some members into a tizzy and that is just fine with me. :-) Metta, James #93766 From: "connie" Date: Mon Dec 22, 2008 4:45 pm Subject: Cornerstone nichiconn dear friends, Instead of Nyanaponika's AS ch2, I'd like to share Karunadada's "The Dhamma Theory: Philosophical Cornerstone of the Abhidhamma" (1996 BPS, Wheel Pub.412-3). Downloads are available from: www.zeh-verlag.de/download/dhammatheory.pdf www.abhidhamma.org/dhamma_theory_philosophical_corn.htm As with the AS corner, my wish is that this divided camp will find the words to call truce and begin to communicate along shared lines. These two corners are, to my mind, an extension of the Sangiiti corner, where, as in so many suttas, we are reminded (and the Commentary repeats): Herein there should be a chanting by all in concord, not a wrangling... So, the first extract (based on the 22 June 97 Internet edition - world.std.com/~metta) follows. peace, connie Introduction All the different modes of analysis and classification found in the Abhidhamma stem from a single philosophical principle, which gave direction and shape to the entire project of systematization. This principle is the notion that all the phenomena of empirical existence are made up of a number of elementary constituents, the ultimate realities behind the manifest phenomena. These elementary constituents, the building blocks of experience, are called dhammas.1 The dhamma theory is not merely one principle among others in the body of Abhidhamma philosophy but the base upon which the entire system rests. It would thus be quite fitting to call this theory the cornerstone of the Abhidhamma. But the dhamma theory was intended from the start to be more than a mere hypothetical scheme. It arose from the need to make sense out of experiences in meditation and was designed as a guide for meditative contemplation and insight. The Buddha had taught that to see the world correctly is to see -- not persons and substances -- but bare phenomena (suddhadhamma) arising and perishing in accordance with their conditions. The task the Abhidhamma specialists set themselves was to specify exactly what these "bare phenomena" are and to show how they relate to other "bare phenomena" to make up our "common sense" picture of the world. {1. The term dhamma denotes not only the ultimate data of empirical existence but also the unconditioned state of Nibbana. In this study, however, only the former aspect is taken into consideration.} #93767 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Mon Dec 22, 2008 4:57 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] AS Time egberdina Hi connie, 2008/12/23 connie : > dear friends, > > Herman, I don't know whether you ever found the article about "The Omission of Memory from the List of Dhammas", but it's one of the appendixes. Some here might also be interested in the appendix on "The Authenticity of the Anupada Sutta". Maybe Howard would find something interesting in the bits on phemononology in the Preface and ch.2. Thanks for that, connie. I hadn't seen that article before, but had wondered at the lack of attention given to memory. I have found a link to that article if anyone is interested. Cheers Herman #93768 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Dec 22, 2008 12:28 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Cornerstone upasaka_howard Hi, Connie - In a message dated 12/22/2008 7:46:11 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, nichicon@... writes: dear friends, Instead of Nyanaponika's AS ch2, I'd like to share Karunadada's "The Dhamma Theory: Philosophical Cornerstone of the Abhidhamma" (1996 BPS, Wheel Pub.412-3). ============================ No good, Connie!! If you'd read this carefully, you'd see he said "meditation"! No cursing on DSG!! Much more seriously, I'm really pleased that you are posting this (IMO) excellent work! You have my thanks. :-) With metta, Howard #93769 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Dec 22, 2008 12:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] AS Time upasaka_howard Hi, Herman (and Connie) - In a message dated 12/22/2008 8:02:53 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, hhofmeister@... writes: Hi connie, 2008/12/23 connie : > dear friends, > > Herman, I don't know whether you ever found the article about "The Omission of Memory from the List of Dhammas", but it's one of the appendixes. Some here might also be interested in the appendix on "The Authenticity of the Anupada Sutta". Maybe Howard would find something interesting in the bits on phemononology in the Preface and ch.2. ---------------------------------- Howard: I somehow missed your post that Herman is replying to here. Actually, I have read (and own) that excellent book, Abhidhamma Studies, by Ven Nyanaponika, and I was pleased with his mention of phenomenology. ----------------------------------- Thanks for that, connie. I hadn't seen that article before, but had wondered at the lack of attention given to memory. I have found a link to that article if anyone is interested. Cheers Herman =========================== With metta, Howard #93770 From: "connie" Date: Mon Dec 22, 2008 7:29 pm Subject: Re: Cornerstone nichiconn dear howard, < It arose from the need to make sense out of experiences in meditation and was designed as a guide for meditative contemplation and insight. > H: No good, Connie!! If you'd read this carefully, you'd see he said "meditation"! No cursing on DSG!! ============================ c: lol... the faint at heart can pretend it just said experiences, contemplation and insight. H: Much more seriously, I'm really pleased that you are posting this (IMO) excellent work! You have my thanks. :-) c: uh oh, our IMOs are lining up again! on this and Nyanaponika's... yikes, pardon the old joke, but: quick, grab a ladder, 'this guy is falling'! ("phonetic" for 'the sky is falling'). yep, thank you, too. peace, connie #93771 From: "nichiconn" Date: Mon Dec 22, 2008 8:01 pm Subject: Re: AS Time nichiconn > > Herman, I don't know whether you ever found the article about "The Omission of Memory from the List of Dhammas", > Thanks for that, connie. I hadn't seen that article before, but had > wondered at the lack of attention given to memory. I have found a link > to that article if anyone is interested. > yeah, i meant to mention it quite some time ago, but had forgotten... sorry. jeez, herman... every time i reread myself, i think "there are too many ways that can be taken"... here, i'm being serious and it sounds funny-haha (as opposed to funny-peculiar) to me. maybe my decoder ring's off key? peace, connie #93772 From: "connie" Date: Mon Dec 22, 2008 9:52 pm Subject: cornerstone nichiconn dear friends, sorry about my carelessness; the author of "The Dhamma Theory" is Y. Karunadasa (not -dada). to conclude the Introduction: The dhamma theory was not peculiar to any one school of Buddhism but penetrated all the early schools, stimulating the growth of their different versions of the Abhidhamma. The Sarvastivada version of the theory, together with its critique by the Madhyamikas, has been critically studied by a number of modern scholars. The Theravada version, however, has received less attention. There are sound reasons for believing that the Pali Abhidhamma Pitaka contains one of the earliest forms of the dhamma theory, perhaps even the oldest version. This theory did not remain static but evolved over the centuries as Buddhist thinkers sought to draw out the implications of the theory and to respond to problems it posed for the critical intellect. Thus the dhamma theory was repeatedly enriched, first by the Abhidhamma commentaries and then by the later exegetical literature and the medieval compendia of Abhidhamma, the so-called "little finger manuals" such as the Abhidhammattha- sangaha, which in turn gave rise to their own commentaries. In the present paper I will attempt to trace the main stages in the origin and development of the dhamma theory and to explore its philosophical implications. Part I will discuss the early version of the theory as represented by the Abhidhamma Pitaka. At this stage the theory was not yet precisely articulated but remained in the background as the unspoken premise of Abhidhamma analysis. It was during the commentarial period that an attempt was made to work out the implications of early Abhidhamma thought, and it is this development that I will treat in Part II. Finally, in Part III, I will discuss two other topics that received philosophical study as a consequence of the dhamma theory, namely, the category of the nominal and the conceptual (pannatti) and the theory of the twofold truth. Both of these were considered necessary measures to preserve the validity of the dhamma theory in relation to our routine, everyday understanding of ourselves and the world in which we dwell. Alex, I don't really know what the "sound reasons" are, I just believe it's true. I also don't know much of anything about historical development and don't much care. Sorry I can't help you with those kinds of questions. Sometimes I think the answer to your 'why believe one school over the other' is simply that (whatever one believes) the homepage says this is the tradition the list is intended to explore. peace, connie #93773 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Dec 22, 2008 9:51 pm Subject: Unhindered Freedom! bhikkhu0 Friends: Mental Hindrances lead only to Neglect & Ruin: The Blessed Buddha once said: One whose mind is dominated by uncontrolled greed, lust, desire, envy or jealously will do, what should not be done, and neglect what should be done! As a consequence of that, his good reputation is lost and his contentment and happiness falls into ruin. Exactly and even so with anyone whose mind is overwhelmed by grumbling evil-will... or overcome, slowed down & stagnated by the hindrance of lethargy & laziness... or agitated, scattered, and worried by the hindrance of restlessness & regret... or perplexed, confused and bewildered by the hindrance of doubt & uncertainty... Such one will do what should not be done, while neglecting what should be done. As a result of that, his good name & status is lost & he is ruined by depressed frustration. But if any Noble Disciple has seen these five as contaminated pollutions of the mind, then he will gradually overcome & eliminate them. When doing so, he becomes known as one of deep understanding, of great knowledge, clear-sighted, endowed with wisdom. This lack of mental hindrance is indeed exactly, what is called endowment with wisdom! There are these five Mental Hindrances: 1: Sense-Desire & Lust, 2: Anger and hate, 3: Lethargy & Laziness, 4: Restlessness & Regret, 5: Doubt & Uncertainty. Really Suffocating, yet not easily Visible! .... The Hindrances Blocks any Way! & Makes Future Barren! Source (edited extract): The Numerical Sayings of the Buddha. Anguttara Nikaya. The Book of Fours 61: Four deeds of Merit... [II: 67] Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest * Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka :-) ... #93774 From: "colette" Date: Mon Dec 22, 2008 9:17 pm Subject: Re: AS Time ksheri3 Hi connie, this stuff looks sooooooo delicious! I can't wait to dig into the Alayavijnana! THANK YOU! MERRY CHRISTMAS AND HAPPY NEW YEARS TO YOU AND YOURS! toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > > dear friends, > i think DC Wijeratna's suggestion to study the venerable Nyanaponika's "Abhidhamma Studies" is a good idea. > <....> #93775 From: "colette" Date: Mon Dec 22, 2008 9:13 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner ksheri3 Hi Herman, I'm glad that you picked up on "symbolism" since symbolism is the crux of ICONOGRAPHY. I don't think I've ever run into an organized religion or theology that does not rely strictly upon their icons and without their icons their message would be nothing more than a vidication of the Madhyamika and it's reference to Shunyata. I can't help but always be thinking of a certain sutta I was lucky enough to get a copy of but it had to be printed in an Adobe form, I think, which took away the address I got it from. Tell ya the truth I can only the recall the gist of the sutta which was the Buddha speaking with a Bhikku and asking the Bhikku if this thing or concept that the Bhikku was clinging to was the Bhikku i.e. "...this is not me" I know it's somewhere in my files and when the new year starts I'll lose my ability to print in the library so I'll lose a lot of abilities but it will give me time to go back through the enormous amount of papers I already have and file them properly. <...> Even in Buddhism, the Buddha spoke many times of this act of clinging to things that have no svabhava and will be of no value in the ULTIMATE TRUTH. <...> You also raise the consciousness of DUPLICITY which I'm speaking of in another group. I do not intend on being duplicious nor do I intend on having ulterior motivation, HOWEVER, when I communicate with people through my writing, it's been the only way I can communicate with any person of any intelligence, for decades now (i.e. solitary confinement or a hermit) but after I write things I have always made copies of my work so that I can read what I wrote and reflect upon it. Every time I read something I wrote I come up with deeper and different meanings, WHICH, to the uninitiated, naturally falls into place with their "conspiracy theories" and duplicity, and ulterior motivation, et al. Thank you for the kind reply and the thoughtfulness behind the reply. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > > Hi colette, > > 2008/12/22 colette : > > Hi Herman, > > > > Happy Holidays to you and the rest of the group. > > > > What is a "code"? For instance what does the "code" called > > the "alphabet" mean? Why do children have to learn the alphabet, the > > code, as a means of transmitting thoughts? <....> > > Thanks for your kind wishes. All teh best to you and yours as well. > > Regarding code, well, there is code as in symbols. All language is > symbolic. And then there is code as in using suymbols to refer to one > thing, but actually mean another. Children who go to school are taught > what words mean, and how to use them. The purpose of such > communication is to include. The purpose of using to code to give > hidden messages is to exclude. Only initiates understand it. > > Cheers > > Herman > #93776 From: "sprlrt" Date: Tue Dec 23, 2008 1:44 am Subject: Re: Views of self sprlrt Dear Lukas, L: In case it is a p. dhamma in which case is gone completely but not forgotten, sanna has marked it and remembers it, and sanna arises with bhavanga as well. The first mind door process Let's say that, by conditions, dosa arises and at some stage becomes the object of dosa mula citta, if when it falls This is the single citta that arises most often I dont understand how cetana cetasika can be an object for citta on its own? If something is dhammaaramana, no matter is it rupa or cetasika it must arise with citta. cetana cannot arise on its own, it always arises with other realities. cetana cannot be dhammaaramana without citta. A: All citta & cetasika of a single mind door process (up to 10) get the single object they all experience through the mind door, bhavanguppaccheda/life-continuum, a kusala vipaka citta for human beings, tipically composed with alobha and adosa, possibly with panna as well. This means that before the cittas of a mind door process can experience an object, that object must have fallen away, in case of p. dhamma. The object is a nimitta, a shadow and, through the mind door, panna can "only" experience nimitta of p. dhammas just fallen away, while avijja usually experience the many following processes, when nimitta turns into pannati, a concept. Mind door processes succced one another very quickly, only a developed sati and panna can follow and know them directly, but the self, by condition, is always in the way preventing its arising and also hindering the progress of panna at pariyatti level. Alberto #93777 From: "sprlrt" Date: Tue Dec 23, 2008 1:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Views of self sprlrt Hi Herman, H: My approach has been that if something conventionally understood can be understood in terms of paramattha dhammas performing their functions, without alteration of the meaning or becoming contradictory, all good and well. A: I don't think that conventional understanding is enough to understand p. dhammas, which can be understood by panna only, even at theoretical level. Some degree of understanding is required to start with, to be able to develop. And panna can only arise with kusala, it's its nature, and not with ditthi-self view. H: I have one or two questions regarding the significance of a momentary dhamma being a root, how to understand a word like gradual in terms of momentary dhammas, and whether past habits arise and fall with each dhamma. A: Roots means that once they are destroyed completely by nibbana experienced by a panna of an accumulated level capable of conditioning the arising of arahant magga and phala, many other nama-dhammas will cease to be conditions hence ceasing to arise as well, and at death all nama khandhas will die out instead of being conditions the arising of patisandhi citta/birth consciousness in some plane or another. Sankhara dhammas (moha, lobha, dosa, ditthi, panna ....) accumulates in both types of processes, sense and mind door, during the javana/impulsion phase in which the same kusala or akusala citta arises and falls for 7 times in succession, accumulating as latent tendencies, anusaya kilesa and, once accumulated enough, as verbal or bodily kamma. Sanna khandha marks or remembers all its objects... H: But they are not the important questions. The biggest issue is that I am unable to translate the process of me letting you know that something is unclear, into paramattha dhammas performing their functions. I am certainly no expert, but I can find nothing in the dhamma theory we are discussing which even allows for the well-understood notion of two individuals communicating. Can you help with that one? A: What is the purpose of communicating in general or about the Dhamma? In the first case I have no anwer, in the second, I think of it as pariyatti, as a condition for understanding the dhammas. Alberto #93778 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Tue Dec 23, 2008 1:49 am Subject: Re: Further Consideration Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner egberdina Hi Howard and Nina, 2008/12/23 : > Hi, Nina - > > ------- > N: Are these not good qualities all of us can develop? Note: > mentioned is also the awakening wisdom of a disciple. Is that not our > goal? > ------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Definitely! And I have no doubt that these are all cultivated in > treading the ariyan steps. We should aspire and work towards all of them, mastering > them to the highest level possible for us. > ------------------------------------------------- If either of you are inclined, I would appreciate any comments on why you consider the paramis as ends in their own right, and why that would not be the pursuit of dukkha. Cheers Herman #93779 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Tue Dec 23, 2008 3:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner egberdina Hi James, 2008/12/23 buddhatrue : > Hi Herman, > >> >> I would just like to go on the record as understanding these as >> literal instructions, not as metaphorical descriptions. >> > > I agree with you. They are obviously instructions. (and it is > really funny at how absurd some members get when they argue that :- > ) Anyway, what do you make of the part about "got rid of the > dizziness due to it"? Usually after eating, one feels sleepy and > fatigued because excess blood leaves the brain to attend to > digestion. To me, this suggests that metta meditation cannot be > done properly while one is tired, sleepy, or dizzy (unfocused). Good to be talking to you again. And what you say is perfectly sensible. No rocket science or da vinci codes involved. With a modicum of attention the different effects of a cup of soya milk, tea, coffee, breathing, are discerned. Clearly, eating a meal has the discernible effects you describe, and these effects are counter-productive to any concentrated effort. > Also, the line about a "well prepared seat" is interesting to me. > How well-prepared is that seat supposed to be? What does that mean > exactly? (BTW, I know that these question will put some members > into a tizzy and that is just fine with me. :-) > I understand that any well-prepared seat is a solitary one. Cheers Herman #93780 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Tue Dec 23, 2008 4:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cornerstone egberdina Dear connie, 2008/12/23 connie : > dear friends, > > > Introduction > > So far, you have my total agreement. (Abhi)dhamma makes sense of meditational experience. Cheers Herman #93781 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Dec 23, 2008 4:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sirens + Just Seeing book sarahprocter... Hi James (& Antony), --- On Sun, 21/12/08, buddhatrue wrote: >Satipatthana and the brahma viharas are not mutually exclusive. It is from a foundation of metta, compassion, karuna, and equanimity that satipatthana is supposed to occur. Then one doesn't have to decide: should i just note sound or should I radiate compassion. One automatically radiates compassion while noting the sound. >The enlightened mind is luminous and compassionate, not luminous and cold. .... S: I agree with the general point that "satipatthana and the brahma viharas are not mutually exclusive". To be picky, different kinds of consciousness arise at different moments with different objects, but I certainly agree that wisdom and the brahma viharas develop together and there is nothing 'cold' about the growth of satipatthana, the understanding of sound as just sound. As you suggest, it's not a question of deciding to be aware of having compassion. Thanks for your comments. Metta, Sarah ======== #93782 From: "connie" Date: Tue Dec 23, 2008 4:49 am Subject: AS Time nichiconn Dear friends, uninitiated or otherwise, Apologies for the way the links looked in this corner's earlier post. Hope anyone interested gets them to work anyway. In any event, apologies also for the length of this first exerpt (below); it just doesn't seem right to split it up. If you'd rather skip it, the same information is given in a lot of other places, for one, see vism xiv, 133 (dsg #41245, #41310) thru 158 (refer to study index: #55332). peace, connie Nyanaponika, ABHIDHAMMA STUDIES (Wisdom/BPS 1998) Ch.III The Schema of Classification in the Dhammasa'nga.nii The investigations undertaken in the following chapters are all based on the dealt with in the first paragraph of the Dhammasa'nga.nii. For the convenience of the reader a translation of it, preceded by the Paali text, is given here. Each mental factor has been numbered to facilitate reference in the following pages; they will subsequently be referred to as F (=factor) 1, etc. Katame dhammaa kusalaa? Yasmi'm samaye kaamaavacara'm kusala'm citta'm uppanna'm hoti somanassa-sahagata'm ~naa.na-sampayutta'm ruupaaramma.na'm saddaaramma.na'm gandhaaramma.na'm, rasaaramma.na'm pho.t.thabbaaramma.na'm dhammaaramma'na'm, ya'm ya'm vaa pan' aarabbha, tasmi'm samaye phasso hoti vedanaa hoti ... avikkhepo hoti, ye vaa pana tasmi'm samaye a~n~ne pi atthi pa.ticca-samuppannaa aruupino dhammaa, ime dhammaa kusalaa. Which are the things that are wholesome? At a time when a state of wholesome consciousness belonging to the sensuous sphere has arisen accompanied by joy and associated with knowledge (and spontaneous), referring to any one object, be it an object of sight, sound, smell, taste, a tangible object, or a mental object - at that time there are present: [The pentad of sense-contact (phassa-pa~ncaka):] 1. sense-contact (phassa) 2. feeling (vedanaa) 3. perception (sa~n~naa) 4. volition (cetanaa) 5. consciousness (citta) [Factors of absorption (jhaana'nga):] 6. thought (vitakka) 7. examination (vicaara) 8. rapture (piiti) 9. pleasure (sukha) 10. mental one-pointedness (cittas'ekaggataa) [Faculties (indriya):] 11. faculty of faith (saddhindriya) 12. faculty of energy (viriyindriya) 13. faculty of mindfulness (satindriya) 14. faculty of concentration (samaadhindriya) 15. faculty of wisdom (pa~n~nindriya) 16. faculty of mind (manindriya) 17. faculty of joy (somanassindriya) 18. faculty of vitality (jiivitindriya) [Path factors (magga'nga):] 19. right view (sammaa-di.t.thi) 20. right thought (sammaa-sa'nkappa) 21. right effort (sammaa-vaayaama) 22. right mindfulnes (sammaa-sati) 23. right concentration (sammaa-samaadhi) [Powers (bala):] 24. power of faith (saddhaa-bala) 25. power of energy (viriya-bala) 26. power of mindfulness (sati-bala) 27. power of concentration (samaadhi-bala) 28. power of wisdom (pa~n~naa-bala) 29. power of moral shame (hiri-bala) 30. power of moral dread (ottappa-bala) [Wholesome roots (kusala-muula):] 31. non-greed (alobha) 32. non-hatred (adosa) 33. non-delusion (amoha) [Wholesome ways of action (kusala-kammapatha):] 34. non-covetousness (anabhijjhaa) 35. non-ill will (avyaapaada) 36. right view (sammaa-di.t.thi) [The guardians of the world (lokapaala):] 37. moral shame (hiri) 38. moral dread (ottappa) [The six pairs (yugalaka):] 39. tranquillity of mental concomitants (kaaya-passaddhi) 40. tranquillity of consciousness (citta-passaddhi) 41. agility of mental concomitants (kaaya-lahutaa) 42. agility of consciousness (citta-lahutaa) 43. pliancy of mental concomitants (kaaya-mudutaa) 44. pliancy of consciousness (citta-mudutaa) 45. workableness of mental concomitants (kaaya-kamma~n~nataa) 46. workableness of consciousness (citta-kamma~n~nataa) 47. proficiency of mental concomitants (kaaya-paagu~n~nataa) 48. proficiency of consciousness (citta-paagu~n~nataa) 49. uprightness of mental concomitants (kaaya-ujukataa) 50. uprightness of consciousness (citta-ujukataa) [The helpers (upakaaraka):] 51. mindfulness (sati) 52. mental clarity (sampaja~n~na) [The paired combination (yuganaddha):] 53. calm (samatha) 54. insight (vipassanaa) [The last dyad (pi.t.thi-dukaa):] 55. exertion (paggaaha) 56. undistractedness (avikkhepa) These, or whatever other conditionally arisen incorporeal things there are at that time, these things are wholesome. The "whatsoever other" (ye-vaa-panakaa), or supplementary factors, as given in the Atthasaalinii are the following: 57. intention (chanda) 58. decision (adhimokkha) 59. attention (manasikaara) 60. mental equipoise (tatramajjhattataa) 61. compassion (karu.naa) 62. sympathetic joy (muditaa) 63. abstinence from wrong bodily action (kaayacuccarita-virati) 64. abstinence from wrong speech (vaciiduccarita-virati) 65. abstinence from wrong livelihood (aajiivaduccarita-virati) #93783 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Dec 22, 2008 11:52 pm Subject: Re: Further Consideration Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Co... upasaka_howard Hi, Herman - In a message dated 12/23/2008 4:49:48 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, hhofmeister@... writes: Hi Howard and Nina, 2008/12/23 : > Hi, Nina - > > ------- > N: Are these not good qualities all of us can develop? Note: > mentioned is also the awakening wisdom of a disciple. Is that not our > goal? > ------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Definitely! And I have no doubt that these are all cultivated in > treading the ariyan steps. We should aspire and work towards all of them, mastering > them to the highest level possible for us. > ------------------------------------------------- If either of you are inclined, I would appreciate any comments on why you consider the paramis as ends in their own right, and why that would not be the pursuit of dukkha. --------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't mainly consider them as ends in their own right, but as means to the end that is awakening. They are, however, all GOOD! So why would they not be worthwhile aims? As for the idea of choosing to pursue them being a pursuit of dukkha, well, I just consider that to be silly. Was the Buddha's pursuit of awakening a pursuit of dukkha? I miss your point, Herman. ------------------------------------------ Cheers Herman ========================== With metta, Howard #93784 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Dec 23, 2008 4:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Suttas in which the Buddha held back the deep teaching? sarahprocter... Hi Herman, --- On Mon, 22/12/08, Herman Hofman wrote: A:> A vivid picture of a self trying to have control over the dhammas > :-)Alberto > H:> What a strange thing to say. .... S: To use your words, I would just like to go on the record to say I think he 'nailed' it! ... H:> Self-view, if it is present, is a function of paramattha dhammas. ... S: Yes, a function of di.t.thi in particular. ... H:> Paramattha dhammas have self-view, not a self. ... S: good point! ... H:> The question is why would paramattha dhammas be ignorant of themselves? ... S: Because moha (ignorance) is a paramattha dhamma which arises and has the function of being ignorant of moha and any or all other paramattha dhammas. Metta, Sarah ======= #93785 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Dec 23, 2008 5:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: how to view the self sarahprocter... Hi Alberto, --- On Fri, 19/12/08, sprlrt wrote: >One of the charachteristics of nama dhammas is that they sampayutta, they blend together completely, and telling ditthi apart from lobha, avijja or citta requires a fairly advanced panna, of the second (I think) vipassana nana level. ... S: I think that panna can begin to know the characteristics of ditthi and lobha before that. When ditthi arises, for example when there is the taking of the computer or the pen for 'something' or people as existing or being seen or heard, its characteristic can be known. It's different from the lobha which arises most the time and just likes what is seen or heard or thought about. Of course, as you indicated, the precise understanding of the realities has to grow. Only at the 2nd vipassana nana is the conditioned nature of them really understood, with no more doubts and only at the 3rd vipassana nana is the impermanence of dhammas known and thereby the realities themselves rather than the nimitta of the realities. Just reflecting out loud.....thanks again. Metta, Sarah ========= #93786 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Tue Dec 23, 2008 5:24 am Subject: [dsg] Re: On Concepts sarahprocter... Hi Alex, A late reply. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" > > S: "Namarupa and vinnana are impermanent, dependently arisen, not- > >self and so on" as you say. Concepts about these realities are used > >for designations and expression but they are not the realities and > >they are not impermanent and dependently arisen. ... A:> How can concepts not be realities if we speak about them even NOW! > Even mirage & hallucinations are real (although their content isn't). .... S: Can you see that there is a distinction between say 'anger' and an idea about anger? The first is a particularly unpleasant mental state. The second is just a thought or an idea about it without any 'anger' in it. The thinking in this second case is real, but the idea is just an idea in the same way the mirage is just a mirage. Can you appreciate the distinction between the reality of thinking and the idea that is thought about? Can you appreciate that there can be awareness of thinking, but not of the idea? ... > How could "Concepts about these realities are used" if these > concepts don't exist as you say! ... S: Concepts exist as concepts but not as realities. They are only thought about and so, they are not paramattha dhammas which exist in an absolute sense that can be directly known. .... >If we talk about concepts, then > they "exist" as figures of speech, speech which as you know made up > of the certain sense bases, elements, sense faculties - WHICH DO > EXIST. ... S: OK, they "exist" as figures of speech or as ideas, regardless of whether they are ideas about sense bases or elements WHICH DO EXIST or whether they are ideas about pens and pencils which do not exist as realities. ... > > They are concepts used here for communication. > > And what do we use for communication? The 5 aggregates. .... S: We use communication to discuss common ideas and experiences. Concepts are also the objects of almost all mind-door cittas even when there is no communication at all. It is very important to understand the distinction between realities and concepts and between thinking and concepts. I didn't reply before because the volume seemed a little high in this thread and I thought your questions were probably rhetorical (as they often are). However, I'd be happy to pursue the thread. Metta, Sarah ====== #93787 From: "connie" Date: Tue Dec 23, 2008 6:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner nichiconn dear friends, James: How well-prepared is that seat supposed to be? What does that mean exactly? (BTW, I know that these question will put some members into a tizzy and that is just fine with me. :-) c: Speaking of instructions, my favorite (friendly tizzy) quote about the seat must still be: << " 'Using blocks of wood as cushions, we will dwell diligent and ardent in striving.' Thus should you train yourselves. " >> (cdb p710). Herman: I understand that any well-prepared seat is a solitary one. c: There are also all those seats prepared for the Buddha, whether he's present or not... which, whether it's the same kind of seat, raises the question of what is meant by "solitary" if anyone would care to comment on that. There's also a lot of mention of "leather mats", which makes me think of "the 6 pairs", especially the pliancy & workableness of consciousness and the mental concomitants. peace, connie #93788 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 23, 2008 6:28 am Subject: Re: Further Consideration Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner nilovg Hi Howard, Op 22-dec-2008, om 14:30 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > This is why I hypothesized that for a bodhisatta, full mastery of all > the perfections is a requirement leading to and occuring *before* > becoming an > arahant and buddha, but that full mastery for one who will not be a > buddha > does not occur until final awakening. > I must say, though, that the more I consider this matter, I find > myself > unsatisfied with this hypothesis of mine! Before the last of the > defilements > have been uprooted, whether in a bodhisatta or in one not to become > a buddha, > that is - prior to the final awakening to arahant, it is impossible > that all > the perfections could be mastered to the maximum! (For example, the > perfection of wisdom would not yet have been perfectly mastered!) > So, I back off from > my hypothesis. It would seem that in all beings, including > bodhisattas, > perfect mastery of the paramis could not be achieved until they > have become > arahants, and with that perfect awakening, they all will be > mastered maximally. > So, the dilemma remains for me. (Ah, well!) --------- N: I will consider your other posts, but meanwhile, here is a link I got from Rob's web, that gives more info: This is from Ven. Bodhi's translation: (xi) HOW ARE THEY ANALYZED (ko vibhago)? They are analyzed into thirty paramis: ten (basic) paramis, ten intermediate paramis (upaparami), and ten ultimate paramis (paramatthaparami). Herein, some teachers say that the ten basic paramis are the intermingled bright and dark qualities practised by a bodhisattva who has just formed his aspiration, whose end is the welfare of others, and whose means are directed towards working for this end; the intermediate paramis are the bright qualities untainted by any darkness; and the ultimate paramis are the qualities which are neither dark nor bright. Others say that the basic paramis are being filled at the commencement (of his career); the intermediate paramis are filled on the plane of bodhisattvahood: and the ultimate paramis reach perfect fulfilment in all modes on the plane of Buddhahood. Or alternatively, the basic paramis involve working for the welfare of others on the plane of bodhisattvahood; the intermediate paramis, working for one's own welfare; and the ultimate paramis, the fulfilment of the welfare of both oneself and others with the achievement of the Tathagata's powers and grounds of self-confidence on the plane of Buddhahood. Thus they analyze the paramis according to the beginning, middle, and consummation (of the bodhisattva's career) by way of the resolution (to fulfil them), the undertaking (of their practice), and their completion, respectively. The basic perfection of giving (danaparami) is the relinquishing of one's children, wives, and belongings such as wealth; the intermediate perfection of giving (dana-upaparami), the relinquishing of one's own limbs; and the ultimate perfection of giving (danaparamatthaparami), the relinquishing of one's own life. The three stages in the perfection of virtue should be understood as the non-transgression (of moral conduct) on account of the three -- children and wife, limbs, and life; the three stages in the perfection of renunciation, as the renunciation of those three bases after cutting off attachment to them; the three stages in the perfection of wisdom, as the discrimination between what is beneficial and harmful to beings, after rooting out craving for one's belongings, limbs, and life; the three stages in the perfection of energy, as striving for the relinquishing of the aforementioned things; the three stages in the perfection of patience, as the endurance of obstacles to one's belongings, limbs, and life; the three stages in the perfection of truthfulness, as the non-abandoning of truthfulness on account of one's belongings, limbs, and life; the three stages in the perfection of determination, as unshakeable determination despite the destruction of one's belongings, limbs, and life, bearing in mind that the paramis ultimately succeed through unflinching determination; the three stages in the perfection of loving-kindness, as maintaining loving-kindness towards beings who destroy one's belongings, etc.; and the three stages in the perfection of equanimity, as maintaining an attitude of impartial neutrality towards beings and formations whether they are helpful or harmful in regard to the aforementioned three bases (i.e. belongings, limbs, and life). In this way the analysis of the paramis should be understood. > (end quote) Nina. #93789 From: "connie" Date: Tue Dec 23, 2008 8:59 am Subject: Sangiitisutta Corner DN 33 1.9, padesa nichiconn Hi, Jon, Scott, a bit of refreshing: - Expositor, p.38 [(SN v 12) Padesavihaarasutta]: There are *ten positions*: of the aggregates, the field of sense, the elements, the Truths, the controlling powers, the causal signs, applications of mindfulness, jhaana, mind and states. Of these the Teacher at the foot of the great Wisdom Tree intuited the five aggregates fully; ... *dasa padesa* N: Padesa: range, location. - DPPN extract: 1. Padesa Sutta A sekha is one who has only partially cultivated the four satipatthaanas. S.v.174f. ok. I just wanted to add a bit from #59236 where Sarah quotes the commentary to the Mahaparinibbana Sutta (PTS): << Wandering in the domain: practising even partial insight meditation (padesa = vipassanaa). >> Don't know whether you've seen it before, Scott, but you mentioned the padesabba (partial all / 5 sense objects) and might be interested in Suan's #23097 on the Sabba Sutta Commentary. peace, connie #93790 From: "Alex" Date: Tue Dec 23, 2008 11:15 am Subject: [dsg] Re: On Concepts truth_aerator Hi Sarah and all, >--- "sarahprocterabbott" wrote: > > Hi Alex, > .... > S: Can you see that there is a distinction between say 'anger' and >an idea about anger? The first is a feeling and the second is a thought. Both these things are conditioned, dependently arisen, anicca -> dukkha -> anatta. The first is a particularly unpleasant mental > state. The second is just a thought or an idea about it without > any 'anger' in it. The thinking in this second case is real, but >the idea is just an idea in the same way the mirage is just a >mirage. > But the "idea" IS a thought and this thought ISN'T everlasting and it isn't omni-present!!! "Nothing is worth clinging to" because everything and anything IS impermanent. You ain't gonna change my conviction in this. > > Can you appreciate the distinction between the reality of thinking > and the idea that is thought about? Can you appreciate that there >can be awareness of thinking, but not of the idea? How there can not be an awareness of idea? Idea IS awareness of a certain thought carrying certain meanings (that can be wrong or not). Maybe I am wrong about the way some people think. I personally am aware of ideas. They are impermanent, unsatisfactory and not self. > ... > > > How could "Concepts about these realities are used" if these > > concepts don't exist as you say! > ... > S: Concepts exist as concepts but not as realities. And what, if I may ask, is the difference between "existing as concepts" and "existing as reality"?! In both cases there IS existence and if there is existence then it follows rise&fall like everything else. If it doesn't exist, then it cannot play any role, but since concepts do play a role - they do exist. Your paragraph below affirms the latter. > ... > S: OK, they "exist" as figures of speech or as ideas, regardless of > whether they are ideas about sense bases or elements WHICH DO EXIST > or whether they are ideas about pens and pencils which do not exist > as realities. Then what do we use to write on piece of paper? ;) > ... > > > They are concepts used here for communication. > > > > And what do we use for communication? The 5 aggregates. > .... > S: We use communication to discuss common ideas and experiences. > Concepts are also the objects of almost all mind-door cittas even > when there is no communication at all. And concepts being objects, they follow the same rules as any other objects in samsara - inconstancy & selflessness. > It is very important to understand the distinction between >realities and concepts and between thinking and concepts. Concepts are a way of thinking. You are trying to make some weird distinctions to justify some weird attavada of concepts being eternal and not subject to change. With best wishes, #93791 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 23, 2008 11:40 am Subject: Re: Further Consideration Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner nilovg Hi Herman, Op 23-dec-2008, om 10:49 heeft Herman Hofman het volgende geschreven: > If either of you are inclined, I would appreciate any comments on why > you consider the paramis as ends in their own right, and why that > would not be the pursuit of dukkha. ------ N: No, a pursuit leading to the end of dukkha. Nina. #93792 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 23, 2008 12:05 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner nilovg Hi Howard, Op 22-dec-2008, om 23:32 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Ken: When someone has heard the true Dhamma the world is never the > same > again. Even at a beginner's level it can be seen that there are > really only the presently arisen paramattha dhammas. > ------------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > Ken, why do you take this one story about paramattha dhammas as almost > the entirety of "the true Dhamma," when far more important and > central to the > teaching are the truths of dukkha, anicca, anatta, paticcasamupada, > the four > noble truths, and the relinquishing of tanha and upadana? > Conceptualizing an > inventory of existents held to be realities with essence and self- > existence > is not the way to freedom. -------- N: The truths of dukkha, anicca, anatta, these are the truth of paramattha dhammas that are dukkha, anicca, anatta, it is, as you agree, not a teaching in abstracto. First of all we have to know what paramattha dhammas are: not abstractions, but seeing or hearing or attachment arising now. The Buddha teaches us about these realities, that they are dukkha, anicca, anatta. The world is never the same again. We are so used to thinking of I who sees, I who hears, but when we hear the Dhamma we learn that there are elements that come together at such or such moment and then there are conditions for seeing, hearing or any other reality. These namas and rupas proceed, take their course, perform functions. It is amazing, how do they manage? No I who can see to it that this or that happens, no control at all. I know that you do not agree with these ideas, it makes you think of little actors. It depends, it can also be taken in the right way: aayatanas associate just for an extremely short moment so that there are the right conditions for this or that experience. And then they are all gone in a flash. No person who acts. ------ Nina. #93793 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Dec 23, 2008 4:54 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sirens + Just Seeing book buddhatrue Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > .... > S: I agree with the general point that "satipatthana and the brahma viharas are not mutually exclusive". To be picky, different kinds of consciousness arise at different moments with different objects, but I certainly agree that wisdom and the brahma viharas develop together and there is nothing 'cold' about the growth of satipatthana, the understanding of sound as just sound. As you suggest, it's not a question of deciding to be aware of having compassion. James: Glad to see that we have agreement on something. :-) > > Thanks for your comments. James: Thanks for your comments, also. :-) > > Metta, > > Sarah Metta, James #93794 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Dec 23, 2008 5:04 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner buddhatrue Hi Connie (and Herman), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > > dear friends, > > James: How well-prepared is that seat supposed to be? What does that mean exactly? (BTW, I know that these question will put some members into a tizzy and that is just fine with me. :-) > > c: Speaking of instructions, my favorite (friendly tizzy) quote about the seat must still be: << " 'Using blocks of wood as cushions, we will dwell diligent and ardent in striving.' Thus should you train yourselves. " >> (cdb p710). James: Ouch! :-) > > Herman: I understand that any well-prepared seat is a solitary one. > > c: There are also all those seats prepared for the Buddha, whether he's present or not... which, whether it's the same kind of seat, raises the question of what is meant by "solitary" if anyone would care to comment on that. James: I'm not so sure about the "solitary" aspect. I believe the Vinaya has specific instructions as to how to construct a sitting mat. Maybe that is a well-prepared seat. But, what I find interesting is that some preparation goes into it. It isn't the romantic idea of just going through the forest and sitting anywhere and starting to meditate. There should be some preparation before the meditation. (Or, if you don't like the word meditation, you can substitute reflection, contemplation, satipatthana, etc.) > > There's also a lot of mention of "leather mats", which makes me think of "the 6 pairs", especially the pliancy & workableness of consciousness and the mental concomitants. James: How could a leather mat compare or relate to mental factors? > peace, > connie Metta, James #93795 From: "connie" Date: Tue Dec 23, 2008 7:33 pm Subject: Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner nichiconn Hi James, c: There's also a lot of mention of "leather mats", which makes me think of "the 6 pairs", especially the pliancy & workableness of consciousness and the mental concomitants. James: How could a leather mat compare or relate to mental factors? c: Actually, the texts talk about gold, but I'd just been staring at this particularly soft piece of leather that's down here on my floor... light, pliant, workable... soft for tranquil might be a bit of a stretch and i guess really the other two don't work. I don't really know what monk's leather mat must be like either, but do remember that Ananda rolled his up once... don't ask for a reference, tho! peace, connie #93796 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Dec 23, 2008 8:55 pm Subject: Evaporating the 3 Root Causes! bhikkhu0 Friends: Wearing away the 3 Roots of Evil stops all Suffering! There are, friends, these three kinds of fading away, that are directly observable, obviously evident, inviting each & every one to come and see for themselves, practical, to be personally experienced by any clever one! What three? Someone here is & greedy & lustful, and caused by this very greedy lust, he comes to harm himself, to harm others, & to harm both himself & others... When this greedy lust later is discarded, then does he neither come to harm himself, nor to harm others, nor to harm both himself & others anymore ... This fading away, caused by wearing away of desire, is directly observable, immediate, inviting each & every one to come & see for themselves, practical, freeing, releasing, and to be personally experienced by any intelligence!!! Furthermore: Someone here is full of hate & aggression, and caused by this rage of anger, he comes to harm himself, to harm others, and to harm both himself & others... When this angry hatred later is eliminated, then does he neither come to harm himself, nor to harm others, nor to harm both himself & others anymore ... This fading away, caused by wearing away of ill-will, is directly observable, apparent, inviting each & every one to come & see for themselves, smoothing, soft, sweet, and to be personally experienced by any intelligence!!! Finally: Someone here is deluded, blinded & confused, and caused by this very ignorance, he comes to harm himself, to harm others, and to harm both himself & others... When this lack of understanding later is cleared up, then does he neither come to harm himself, nor to harm others, nor to harm both himself & others anymore ... This fading away, caused by wearing away of obscuration, is easily observable, actual, inviting each & every one to come & see for themselves, all advantageous, awakening, opening, and to be personally experienced by any intelligence!!! These, friends, are the three kinds of fading away, that are directly observable, immediately accessible, inviting each & every one to come and see for themselves, practical, applicable, reachable, & personally experiencable by any intelligence... There are 3 Root Causes of all Evil: Greed! Hate! Ignorance! Greed + dilutions: Lust Desire Thirst Craving Yearning Longing Wishing Hoping Liking Attraction Tendency Hate + dilutions: Anger Aversion Irritation Indignation Resentment Opposition Contrariety Impatience Intolerance Stubbornness Rigidity Ignorance + dilutions: Confusion Bewilderment Perplexity Uncertainty Doubt Scepticism Hesitancy Indecision Oblivion Stupefaction Obscurity These wrong mental roots blend in innumerable ways: Blending Evils: Examples of Root Mixtures: Mixed Greed and Hate becomes => envy or jealousy... Mixed Ignorance and Greed becomes => search, urge & frustration... Mixed Ignorance and Hate becomes => extremism, fanatism & terrorism... ... Source: The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book IV [330-40] Section 42: On The 6 Senses. Rasiya: 12. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html What are the 3 Root Causes of all Evil? Have a nice fading away day! Friendship is the Greatest * Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka :-) ... #93797 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Tue Dec 23, 2008 10:04 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Children, Dhamma, Kamma sarahprocter... Hi Alex, Another late relpy... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > >S: I think we're so used to thinking of kamma in terms of people > >performing deeds and experiencing results when actually it can only > >be understood in terms of cittas - kinds of consciousness, > >accompanied by particular intentions bringing about particular > >results by way of vipaka cittas and rupas conditioned by such kamma. > >>> ... A:> If most people start thinking about people in terms of just elements > then many people would not mind killing or cheating or doing what > they like because "Hey there is no one there to be hurt!" . Advanced > teachings must come later when the proper moral and wisdom groundwork > has been laid. .... S: What you write would be a complete misunderstanding of the Buddha's teaching on dhatus (elements). It sounds more like the teaching of Purana Kassapa (or one of the other teachers) referred to in the Sammanaphala Sutta, who believed there was no harm or evil in taking life, stealing and so on because they didn't accept kamma and its results or life after death. Just as the cittas and cetasikas we refer to as 'Sarah' or 'Alex' don't wish to be harmed, hurt or cheated, neither do any other (sets of) cittas and cetasikas. This is the difference between sentient beings and plants - the latter don't have namas which experience pleasure, pain and so on. ... > >S: So, in terms of cittas and intentions, it doesn't matter whether > we're talking about an adult, a child, an animal or being in a hell- > realm for that matter. Akusala cittas of a particular strength lead > to akusala kamma patha which will bring about particular akusala > vipaka. Clearly, if the act is an accident and not intended, there is no akusala kamma involved. ... A:> There was a story of a blind Arahant who accidently (he didn't see!) > stepped on many insects killing them. There was NO Kamma there. > Only the Jains would consider unintentional killing as doing bad > Kamma and they used to argue quite a bit with Buddhists regarding > this. ... S: Exactly! We're talking about the intentions and kamma. These are namas or dhatus, not people. Metta, Sarah ======= #93798 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Dec 23, 2008 10:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The speed of cittas sarahprocter... Hi Howard & all, (Replying to #93595) --- On Tue, 16/12/08, upasaka@... wrote: >>S: I think we can say that all thinking, directly or indirectly, is based on realities. Without the khandhas, without namas and rupas, there'd be no thinking at all. ------------ --------- --------- --------- -------- >Howard: I agree entirely, though, like TG, I'm not a fan of reality terminology. ------------ --------- --------- --------- -------- S: ....or based on namas and rupas... ... >>S: As for when thinking immediately follows the experiencing of a reality, the first mind-door process directly experiences the characteristic of the same rupa (just experienced through the sense door). ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- -- >Howard: I'm not sure I'd call that thinking. It is fresh recollection and recognition. ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- - S: Yes, I call it direct experiencing of the rupa, rather than thinking about it. .... S:>>>This is likely to be followed by thinking, but there can also be the experience of a reality through the mind door, followed by more thinking. For example, attachment may be experienced as object (with or without awareness, usually without of course), followed by thinking about the story. ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---- >Howard: Yes - as the Buddha points out in the Ball of Honey Sutta, when ignorance is operative, recognition follows in the wake of feeling, and then cognitive and affective proliferation. Specifically, the Buddha teaches "What one feels, one perceives (labels in the mind). What one perceives, one thinks about. What one thinks about, one complicates. Based on what a person complicates, the perceptions & categories of complication assail him/her with regard to past, present, & future forms cognizable via the eye." ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --- S: Thank you. What you say and quote neatly summarises the distinction between the visible object which is seen and the proliferations about various concepts which follow such experience. Metta, Sarah ======== #93799 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Dec 23, 2008 10:35 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Lodewijk's Diary, 3. sarahprocter... Dear Nina & all, --- On Tue, 16/12/08, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > We are inclined to judge someone else so fast, but we > should remember > that he has accumulated such or such particular feature, he > is > conditioned in that way. > > When we see someone else who looks strange in his > appearance or > outfit, is there conceit? Or do we see him as a friend? > > The value of patience: when there is more metta there is > also more > patience. How do we think about others? With kusala citta > or with > akusala citta? Through satipatthaana we come to know cittas > more in > detail. Through metta one can become more humble. Sariputta > > considered himself as a dustrag. We are not ‘somebody’, > but rather a > ‘nobody’, anatta. .... S: I find these reminders about others looking strange, conceit, patience, metta and dustrags which K.Sujin always gives us very helpful. She always says (and means) that she likes to be like a dustrag and we can indeed see that when there is more metta and patience and less conceit, we're happier to live as a 'nobody', considering everyone as our friends. We think of others' needs rather than our own, such as when we meet so many beggars in India!! We can treat them all as our friends coming to meet us or as you quoted K.Sujin saying, we can treat anyone we pass in the street as our friend too. This is just as much so when they're really crowded streets as they are at this time of year in Hong Kong. Every week I go to see my Chinese doctor for my hip problem. As it happens, another patient always goes at the same time. Although he'd probably only be in his 30s, he's huge and takes up two seats in the tiny waiting room, where patients often have to stand. Until recently, as soon as he sat down he'd fall asleep, snoring really loudly, distrubing everyone. The same would happen in the treatment room. The first time I met him, I left because of the loud noise and crowded room, coming back later. Gradually, however, I've got to know him. We chat in Cantonese and he tells me about his very serious medical conditions (heart, respiratory and so on) which mean he can't stay awake at all and he has to have a constant minder to accompany him on transport and anywhere he goes. While we chat, he stays awake and doesn't disturb the other patients and slowly we've become friends and I rejoice in the gradual improvement in his condition. It's a reminder to me of how easily we're influenced by appearances (or even style of writing!) when we really have no idea about the circumstances. Again, when there is metta and friendliness, there's no irritation or conceit. Thanks again for sharing the reminders. Metta, Sarah =========