#95200 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Wed Jan 21, 2009 6:50 pm Subject: Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. epsteinrob Hi Alberto. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sprlrt" wrote: ...Wouldn't you rather suspect > > that you are creating this "subtle shift" yourself, if you cannot > > explain why you think that it is actually there, to suit your own > > philosophical predispositions? > > > > I think we've both started going around in samsara-like circles. How > about a fresh thread? :-) > > Alberto You said that you noticed a "subtle shift" in the meaning of sati, so that it really came to indicate samadhi and not sati, and I asked how you noticed such a subtle shift. It would be helpful to give some indication. There's nothing circular about that - I just asked you to give some idea of how you came to this assertion, but you don't seem too interested in answering. I would like to know how you would account for some of your assertions, but if not, then I would agree that there is no reason for the thread to continue. Best, Robert ======================== #95201 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Wed Jan 21, 2009 6:54 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati. was: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > I shall send you off line an attachment with my study on anapana > sati. It is rather long, but incorporated are also discussions with > you, Jon and Sarah. We can use this for discussion, posting snippets > of it. If I post it here in small parts, I am not sure that you have > left us before it is finished, since other duties may be calling you. > Nina. Thank you, Nina. I have received the attachment as I told you off the list via email and it is quite fascinating, including the discussions that are incorporated. I think that whatever conclusions one may reach, the discussion of the anapanasati sutta that is contained there is quite valuable and has some information that is educational for me. I hope I can stay a while, and will enjoy discussing aspects of this subject as we can. And thank you for all that you have said above in this post as well. Best, Robert ========================= #95202 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Wed Jan 21, 2009 7:14 pm Subject: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions /and Re: Suttas- the time to epsteinrob Hi Robert. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > Dear Robert E > Hi you might remember me from a few years back. > Perhaps I can suggest a different way of looking at it. > > When understanding arises - that is, genuine understanding i.e. a > moment of citta associated with panna cetaskia - then, no matter how > fleeting or weak, there is for that moment genuine bhavana (meditation > if you prefer). This (genuine) Bhavana is not dependent on what > position you happen to be in, or where you are. It is a nama , mentality - > it is not about feeling good or bad, or straining and trying or relaxing, > sitting still, walking slowly etc. Once that is known, that bhavana really > is a pure mental phenomenon, that arises briefly based on subtle > conditions, we can understand why vipassana is not a special technique > that one learns and applies. > > Like the Western teacher Chistopher titmus (who I usually find rather > unispring) said: > http://www.insightmeditation.org/index.php/welcome/eng/dharmanews > """The word Vipassana has become too closely identified with certain > methods and techniques, and is thus far removed from its original > meaning, namely insight – bearing no connection whatsoever for the > Buddha with a meditation technique. . """" > > robert This will be a bit long, and is in the nature, I guess, of a rant, but hopefully a useful one. I guess my view is twofold. I find it just going against reality as I understand it to assert that there is no role for technique, training, or learning and progressing in the Dhamma. I just think that is a terribly misguided idea. I do think that Vipassana, samatha and other of the kusala meditation qualities can be enhanced and developed through techniques and through repeated habits of paying attention within the meditation activity, and I think that the majority of Buddhists would also agree with this. Perhaps we are all deluded and the idea that kusala moments can come more frequently and accumulate more quickly through applied effort is totally deluded and the school of thought that only leaves room for pure dhamma theory with no actor and no volition is the right one. I don't know, but it does not seem correct to me. What frustrates me the most is that I don't think there has to be a contradiction between the detailed analysis of realities that lead to understanding such as is promoted within this group, and with the view that there are things to do that are not purely coincidental to our activities and efforts. I mean, it would be quite extreme to say that I will eat wherever I find the food. If I happen to find food on the floor that is the right way to eat because I didn't plan it and control it, so it must be kusala, but this seems to be the approach of some who take an extreme view of dhamma theory and refuse to admit the Dhamma as a part of the normal human way we organize things. While they are refusing to admit that we do engage in planned and skillful activities, they are busy reading the suttas and commentaries and trying as hard as they can to study and understand via *that* particular method, so it seems totally contradictory to me. Now when I read certain passages in the Abhidhamma, or I hear the open and wise statements of some of the folks here, I understand that there can be less rigidity and duality about these views. My own approach is a combination. I would never chase away a moment of vipassana if it arose while I was doing the dishes or having a chat, just because it didn't occur within my "formal meditation routine." Neither would I eschew the habit of watchfulness and potentiality that exists in the act of meditation. So I don't count out ordinary life or a particular effort. Some would say "well you must do ten hours of meditation a day or you'll never experience jhana," while from the other end another person will say "well you will never experience the "real kusala" jhana if you are meditating, because it only occurs when you are not trying, and anything you experience in planned meditation will necessarily be a false jhana that has self-concept in it, just because you are thinking "I am doing meditation in order to achieve jhana" and that ruins the whole thing." Personally I think both views are extreme. Whether one goes through daily life reading suttas and takes the view "I am not the doer -there is no self doing this" or whether one meditates and thinks "I will use this meditation to develop vipassana;" in either case there will be kusala and akusala moments and whatever we may do it is fraught with peril for any kind of real insight or letting go. So I think it is better to look together into the nature of reality and try to see it for what it is, and accept each other's activities that we use to do so. If we say "oh that sutta reader they are just getting intellectual insight" or if we say "oh that meditator he is just hypnotizing himself into thinking his self-concept is some kind of important jhana" we are just promoting more and more false views of each other and of reality itself. I find great value in the specific discussions and categories and points of reality, but I do not think the smugness that some on either side hold that they alone understand the right approach is helpful to anyone. Best, Robert E. ========================= #95203 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Wed Jan 21, 2009 7:22 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. epsteinrob --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: ------- > N: Seeing the body in the body, actually in Pali: rupa in rupa. So would it be right to say that Buddha's point here is to see "only rupa in the perception of the body." Would that be a way of putting it? ...Body-consciousness is vipaakacitta and it > is accompanied by bodily feeling that is also vipaaka. Are you saying that "body consciousness" is a particular type of citta? Does it include the whole category of various perceptions of the body, or is it specific type of body perception? ...The different cittas in a > process arise so closely one after the other that it is difficult to > distinguish between them. > > Nina. Is there a simple way to indicate the order in which a group of cittas with their cetasikas might follow in sequence? For instance, is there "body-awareness" followed by some cittas of "hardness, firmness, pain, movement," etc., interspersed with "pleasure, uncertainty, neutrality, tiredness, annoyance, heaviness,"etc. or some such order that adds up to the process? Best, Robert E. ========================= #95204 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Wed Jan 21, 2009 7:34 pm Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Survey, Ch 35, no 3. epsteinrob --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Herman Hofman wrote: > ""Reflecting appropriately, he uses almsfood, not playfully, nor for > intoxication, nor for putting on bulk, nor for beautification; but > simply for the survival & continuance of this body, for ending its > afflictions, for the support of the holy life, thinking, 'Thus will I > destroy old feelings [of hunger] and not create new feelings [from > overeating]. I will maintain myself, be blameless, & live in > comfort.'" > > I will maintain myself. Hmmmm, very difficult to do when not > identified with anything :-) We seem to be talking way around each other. As I said in my last post, I do not deny the reality of everyday activities or the ability to tend to one's body or respond to one's name. What I am saying is that one must not be attached to this I-sense or think that it is actual. Does that mean that I have to go psychotic and make believe I have no relation to my body? No it does not. Is there an inherent duality in what I have just said? Yes there is. It is the ability to live as if one is this body and personality while understanding that this is not the ultimate truth. It works, you just don't seem to like it much. Robert ============================== #95205 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Wed Jan 21, 2009 7:37 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. epsteinrob Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > Howard: > Noting a bodily sensation alone and "as such," would be "knowing the > body in the body," and noting the activity of feeling it as pleasant, > unpleasant, or affectively neutral alone and "as such" would be "knowing feeling in > feeling." > Inasmuch as knowing the rupa and affectively tasting it occur at the > same time (or at a typically indiscernible distance in time), to engage in such > vipassana obviously requires enormous clarity of mind and precise attention. I guess the normal, everyday, lower-level vipassana, if there is such a thing, would at least have insight into the nature of feeling as feeling and/or sensation as sensation, even if it were not at the point where it could distinguish the individual moments of one or the other and how they interact on the micro-temporal level. Best, Robert ------------------------- #95206 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Wed Jan 21, 2009 7:39 pm Subject: Re: Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner epsteinrob Thanks, Scott, for clarifying. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott" wrote: > > Scott: I believe it was Alberto you meant to address in these > comments, since it was he you were quoting. Perhaps he could reply > were he to feel so inclined. > #95207 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jan 21, 2009 8:14 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. sarahprocter... Hi Howard & Newcomers*, --- On Mon, 19/1/09, upasaka@... wrote: R: >>Hi Howard! Whoops, left out the top greeting... ============ ========= ========= H: >LOLOL! Smart guy that I am, I knew that you weren't dissing me! ;-)) .... S: LOL too, I expect he was concerned about getting another ticket from the Mods:-)) Metta, Sarah [*Newcomers, We ask everyone to make it clear whom is being addressed and to give a sign-off, preferably with a *real(!!)* name. Any queeries on this, off-list pls.] ======= #95208 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Wed Jan 21, 2009 8:22 pm Subject: Re: cornerstone sarahprocter... Dear Connie & Alex, When I read this segment, it seemed to have Alex's name written on it. Alex, it's along the lines of some of our discussions (or rather, my part in the discussions). I'll be interested to hear your comments. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > > Dear Friends, > Karunadasa continues: > > Further, pannattis differ from dhammas in that only the latter are delimited by rise and fall; only of the dhammas and not of the pannattis can it be said, "They come into being having not been (ahutva sambhonti); and, after having been, they cease (hutva pativenti)." 119 Pannattis have no own-nature to be manifested in the three instants of arising, presence, and dissolution. Since they have no existence marked by these three phases, such temporal distinctions as past, present, and future do not apply to them. Consequently they have no reference to time (kalavimutta).120 For this self-same reason, they have no place in the traditional analysis of empirical existence into the five khandhas, for what is included in the khandhas should have the characteristics of empirical reality and be subject to temporal divisions.121 Another noteworthy characteristic of pannattis is that they cannot be described either as conditioned (sankhata) or as unconditioned (asankhata), for they do not possess their own-nature (sabhava) to be so described.122 Since the two categories of the conditioned and the unconditioned comprise all realities, the description of pannattis as exempt from these two categories is another way of underscoring their unreality. > > notes: > 119. VsmM 210. > 120. (ADSVM 36). > 121. MA II 299. > 122. (KvuA 92).} .... Metta, Sarah ========= #95209 From: "Scott" Date: Wed Jan 21, 2009 8:38 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner scottduncan2 Dear Herman, Regarding: Me: "There is no controlling dhammas." Scott: This is the Attakaariisutta.m, A"nguttara Nikaya, Chakkanipaata, Devataavaggo, 8, which we have discussed before. Atha kho a~n~nataro braahma.no yena bhagavaa tenupasa.nkami; upasaá¹…kamitvaa bhagavataa saddhi.m sammodi. Sammodaniiya.m katha.m saara.niiya.m viitisaaretvaa ekamanta.m nisiidi. Ekamanta.m nisinno kho so braahma.no bhagavanta.m etadavoca â€" 'aha~nhi, bho gotama, eva.mvaadii eva.mdi.t.thi - 'natthi attakaaro, natthi parakaaro 'ti. 'Maaha.m, braahma.na, eva.mvaadi.m eva.mdi.t.thi.m addasa.m vaa assosi.m vaa. Katha~nhi naama saya.m abhikkamanto, saya.m pa.tikkamanto eva.m vakkhati - 'natthi attakaaro, natthi parakaaro 'ti! 'Ta.m ki.m ma~n~nasi, braahma.na, atthi aarabbhadhaatuu 'ti? 'Eva.m, bho'. 'Aarabbhadhaatuyaa sati aarabbhavanto sattaa pa~n~naayantii 'ti? 'Eva.m, bho'. 'Ya.m kho, braahma.na, aarabbhadhaatuyaa sati aarabbhavanto sattaa pa~n~naayanti, aya.m sattaana.m attakaaro aya.m parakaaro'. 'Ta.m ki.m ma~n~nasi, braahma.na, atthi nikkamadhaatu ... atthi parakkamadhaatu ... atthi thaamadhaatu ... atthi .thitidhaatu ... atthi upakkamadhaatuu 'ti? 'Eva.m, bho'. 'Upakkamadhaatuyaa sati upakkamavanto sattaa pa~n~naayantii 'ti? 'Eva.m, bho'. 'Ya.m kho, braahma.na, upakkamadhaatuyaa sati upakkamavanto sattaa pa~n~naayanti, aya.m sattaana.m attakaaro aya.m parakaaro'. 'Maaha.m, braahma.na eva.mvaadi.m eva.mdi.t.thi.m addasa.m vaa assosi.m vaa. Katha~nhi naama saya.m abhikkamanto saya.m pa.tikkamanto eva.m vakkhati - 'natthi attakaaro natthi parakaaro 'ti. 'Abhikkanta.m, bho gotama ... ajjatagge paa.nupeta.m sara.na.m gata 'nti! A.t.thama.m. Scott: The Mettanet version, since, of course, I am a very earnest yet very unskilled student of Paa.li: Attakari Sutta The one who is doing "004.08 Then a certain Brahmin approached The Blessed One exchanged friendly greetings, sat on a side and said: "Good Gotama I am of this view and say: Nothing is done by the self, nothing is done by others. Brahmin, I have not seen or heard of such a view: How could someone by himself approaching and receding say `Nothing is done by the self, nothing is done by others.' "Brahmin, is there an occasion for making effort, "Yes, good one. "Brahmin, when there is an occasion for making effort, when there is a sentient being making effort, this is the being doing and the otherness. Brahmin, when there is a going forth ... re ... ,when there is a going forward, ... when there is firmness, ... when there is uprightness ... when there is endurance, ... when there is a sentient being enduring, this is the being doing and the otherness. Brahmin, I have not seen or heard of such a view: How could someone by himself approaching and receding say `Nothing is done by the self, nothing is done by others.' "Good Gotama, I understand ... re ... from today, until life lasts I take refuge in good Gotama." Scott: You can re-read what I wrote on: "Ya.m kho, braahmana, aarabbadhaatuya sati aarabhavanto sattaa pa~n~nayanti, aya.m sattaana.m attakaaro aya.m parakaaro." http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/72573 I'll pass, if you don't mind, on any further discussion, Herman. Sincerely, Scott. #95210 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Wed Jan 21, 2009 8:39 pm Subject: Re: cornerstone - AN i 222 sarahprocter... Hi Connie & Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: >>Scott: "Atthasaalinii (pp.436-437): > > "For there is alteration in state (by way of deficiency and excess) of the four Great Essentials; but there is no such thing as alteration of characteristics. The absence of such alteration of characteristics is shown in the A.t.thaanaparikappa Sutta: (A"nguttara i,222)..." > > What do you think? > > c: yeah, I think it's the same sutta & the Asl explains the meaning quite well; there's my bias showing again. There can be "change" in the strength of a given dhamma during it's 'life-cycle' but it's individual essence does not change... temperature is not cohesiveness and taste is not sound. ... S: Sounds pretty neat....beter than one or two other 'versions', I think. Thx for pursuing this. Metta, Sarah ======== #95211 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Wed Jan 21, 2009 8:49 pm Subject: Re: thinking and vitakka sarahprocter... Hi Lukas & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "szmicio" wrote: > > thanks for vitakka, Sarah. .... Sarah: Vinaka! (Vinaka, to rhyme with vitakka, means 'thank you' or 'you're welcome' in Fijian:-)). .... > L: Recently I forget about reality and cling to points of view. > Akusala are really strong. No chance to get out from this. ... S: No chance by Self, the only 'chance' is by panna, one moment at a time. As I heard KS say on a tape when a friend mentioned the path was too long and difficult: "We have to be courageous, one moment to another, to develop understanding. Otherwise it's lobha again." When progress seems so slow, KS responded: "The self is there again." So true! Later, in the discussion: KS: "Are you looking for something?.....If one looks for other moments - impossible to understand dukkha right now.If one does not understand reality right now, clinging takes one away from this moment -wanting to experience the one which hasn't come yet." Metta, Sarah ======= #95212 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Wed Jan 21, 2009 8:58 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The object of meditation in metta meditation sarahprocter... Hi Alex, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > > S: Can you tell me in your own simple words what metta is, > >A: absence of hatred and positive counterpart of feeling of hatred. > > >what you mean by 'the feeling' > mental state. > > > > and what you mean by 'absorb into it'? >A: Make it a center of attention and focus as much attention to it as > possible. .... > >What is the object of metta? > >A: In sitting meditation the mental state of non-anger, friendliness, .... S: I think this is a misunderstanding. When the Buddha showed the greatest metta, it was to those whom he met, those whom he contemplated, all sentient beings. He did not have or encourage others to have metta towards metta. ... > > > How is such metta as you describe wholesome (kusala)? > > Counteracts 5 hindrances if used as absorption meditation and deals > with anger in particular. .... S: It begins with friendliness to other beings. The characteristic of metta has to be understood when it arises, not by focussing or 'absorbing into' a mental state as object. Is metta or sentient beings given as the object of the development of metta in the Metta Sutta, for example? Metta, Sarah ======== #95213 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Wed Jan 21, 2009 9:01 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Understanding Death and Beyond - Section 6 sarahprocter... Hi Rob M, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > >To incorporate this into the Theravadin > Abhdidhamma, I suggested that the whole body acted as "that matter in > dependence on which the mind element and the mind consciousness > element occur". There were some doctors in the room who mentioned > that the medical journals had never recorded any transfer of habits > when other organs were transplanted... it only happens with heart > transplants. I posited that perhaps the heart organ had a "stronger > concentration" of accumulations and the other organs had a "weaker > concentration" (I am skating on thin ice here :-) ). .... S: Yes, pretty thin ice, I'd say too :-)) Metta, Sarah ========= #95214 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Wed Jan 21, 2009 9:10 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vipassanaa, Survey Ch 34, no. 12. sarahprocter... Hi Herman, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Herman Hofman wrote: > In nature, events follow the path of least resistance. The path of a > rock as it rolls down a hill is effortless, natural and explainable as > the consequence of the characteristics of the rock, the forces acting > on it, and the greater and lesser obstacles and resistances in it's > way. A rock neither knows nor cares where it is has been or where it > is going. > > On the other hand, there is no behaviour of a healthy adult human > being that is natural, without effort directed at achieving some goal, > or that is entirely the consequence of given facts. Nor are any of the > goals to which humans aspire natural, or one more natural than > another. ... S: As Ken H put it once, whether we're talking about rocks or humans: "There are only dhammas, and they are disinterestedly rolling on in accordance with conditions" Metta, Sarah p.s. I left a message for Sharon the other day, but didn't see her. I'll email her later. ============= #95215 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Wed Jan 21, 2009 9:14 pm Subject: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions /and Re: Suttas- the time to sarahprocter... Dear All, More from Ken H on 'disinterested cittas' and meditation (#94943): --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: >K: Any real meditation work is done by a single, fleeting, citta. Each > citta occurs - and its work is done - when the required conditions > for its appearing are present. There is no sentient being involved. > There is no need for a sentient being! Dhammas occur, or cease to > occur, purely by conditions. **** > If Dhamma-study is seen in a conventional light then it definitely > does 'engage the ego' (i.e., the idea of a persisting self) just as > much as any other formal practice done with the idea of creating > satipatthana 'engages the ego.' **** Thx Ken H & Rob Ep for your discussions. I'm glad to see all your 'trouble-making' posts, Rob - I enjoyed the hammer and nails one in particular:-)). Metta, Sarah ====== #95216 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Wed Jan 21, 2009 9:22 pm Subject: Re: Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner epsteinrob Hi Scott. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott" wrote: > Scott: Buddhaghosa, seeming consistent to me and fully aware of these > distinctions, would not then offer imperatives and suggest that the > dhammas he seemed only to well aware of could be controlled. I think > he refers to the conditions that need to be in place for such-and-such > to occur. > > Finally, ~Naa.namoli, in a footnote to his translation of the above > (p. 79, note 6) writes: > > "'Puggalaadi.t.thhaanaaya desanaaya - of teaching in terms of a > person': a technical commentarial term, see M A. 1, 24, whence it is > opposed to dhammaadi.t.thaanadesanaa (teaching in terms of impersonal > ideas). > > Scott: It is important not to lose track of this distinction, in my > opinion. > > Sincerely, > > Scott. Thanks for this detailed response. I think it is instructive, and in fact, the funny thing is that I agree with you that there is not a coherent personal being apart from conditions and categories, and yet I think the imperative may possibly be used to create such conditions that will allow the right actions to be taken. I just think it may be too strict to say that an imperative can never be given, or cannot itself be a condition which will cause certain things to take place. It does not take away, in any case, from the reality that there is no personal volition per se, from a central self, but only the factors that arise because of the conditions that are present. On the other hand, it may be possible to "fight fire with fire" by instructing the concept of the personal self in such a way that certain conditions are thus established. Best, Robert = = = = = = = = = = = #95217 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Wed Jan 21, 2009 9:25 pm Subject: Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. sarahprocter... Dear Ann (Nina & Jon), Great question - lovely whenever you chip in, Ann! (I haven't read Jon's comments yet...very behind, so no idea if we're on the same track!) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "glenjohnann" wrote: > >> 1.'"One speaks of 'the world,' Lord. In how far is there are world > or > > the designation 'world'?" "When there is the eye and visible forms, > > visual consciousness and things cognizable by visual consciousness; > > when there is the ear and sounds...; nose and smells...; tongue and > > flavours...; body and tangibles...; mind and ideas, mind- > > consciousness and things cognizable by mind-consciousness--then > there > > is a world and the designation 'world'."'[SN 35:68] .... S: It seems to me that the first pair in each case refers to the inner and outer ayatanas and the last pair to the citta and what is experienced by the citta. So in the case of the 5 senses, visible object is in effect repeated (with a different 'focus'). In the last case, 'ideas' above refers to the dhammayatana, i.e. cetasikas, subtle rupas (and nibbana), whereas 'things cognizable by mind- consciousness' would include any object of consciousness, including pannatti. So they're not the same. ... .... > > 2. '"'All' will I show you, O monks. And what is 'all'? The eye and > > visible forms, ear and sounds, nose and smells, tongue and flavors, > > mind and ideas--this, O monks, is what is called > 'all'."' [SN35:22]"" > > A. Again here, I would have expected to see the various sense > consciousness as well, as in the eye, visible forms and seeing etc. .... S: Here, as Nina said, the sutta is referring to the inner and outer ayatanas only - in other words, the 'All' that can be directly known with insight through the development of satipatthana. This is the 'All' that exists - no concepts included. Looking forward to seeing you soon in Bangkok. Metta, Sarah ====== #95218 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Wed Jan 21, 2009 9:27 pm Subject: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions /and Re: Suttas- the time to epsteinrob Hi Sarah! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarahprocterabbott" wrote: > Thx Ken H & Rob Ep for your discussions. I'm glad to see all > your 'trouble-making' posts, Rob - I enjoyed the hammer and nails one > in particular:-)). :-))) robert e. #95219 From: "connie" Date: Wed Jan 21, 2009 9:54 pm Subject: re: cornerstone nichiconn Hi Sarah, Alex, K: Further, pannattis differ from dhammas in that only the latter are delimited by rise and fall; they cannot be described either as conditioned (sankhata) or as unconditioned (asankhata), for they do not possess their own-nature (sabhava) to be so described. Since the two categories of the conditioned and the unconditioned comprise all realities, the description of pannattis as exempt from these two categories is another way of underscoring their unreality. c: Just a few examples from palikanon.com/english/sangaha/chapter_8.htm of the kinds of 'pannatti -vs- dhamma' that Karunadasa was talking about: << There are such terms as 'land', 'mountain', and the like, so designated on account of the mode of transition of the respective elements; such terms as 'house', 'chariot', 'cart', and the like, so named on account of the mode of formation of materials; such terms as 'person','individual', and the like, so named on account of the five aggregates; such terms as 'direction', 'time', and the like, named according to the revolution of the moon and so forth; such terms as 'well', 'cave', and the like, so named on account of the mode of non-impact and so forth; such terms as Kasina-objects and the like, so named on account of respective elements and different mental culture. All such different things, though they do not exist in an ultimate sense, become objects of thought in the form of shadows of (ultimate) things. >> peace, connie #95220 From: "sprlrt" Date: Thu Jan 22, 2009 12:24 am Subject: Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. sprlrt Hi Robert E., > > You said that you noticed a "subtle shift" in the meaning of sati, so > that it really came to indicate samadhi and not sati, and I asked how > you noticed such a subtle shift. It would be helpful to give some > indication. There's nothing circular about that - I just asked you to > give some idea of how you came to this assertion, but you don't seem > too interested in answering. > > I would like to know how you would account for some of your > assertions, but if not, then I would agree that there is no reason for > the thread to continue. > Sati is different from samadhi (very different), and anapana sati is obviously about sati, not samadhi. The suttas don't mention any specific area of the body on which to focus one's attention, on which to concentrate (samadhi), simply because it's about sati, not samadhi, two unsubtly different dhammas, and when one does just what is not in anapanasati sutta at all, i.e. focus/concentrate on a specific part of the body, can't, imo, claim that he/she is following anapana sati (the Buddha's) "instructions". Also worth noting are the recipients to whom the Buddha was addressing when delivering the anapanasati discourse. Alberto MN 118, Anapanasati sutta, Nanamoli-Bodhi transl.: "8. Bhikkhus, this assembly if free from prattle, this assembly is free from chatter. It consists purely of heartwood... ...Such an assembly as is rare for the world to see... ..Such as assembly as would be worth journeying many leagues with a travel-bag to see - such is this Sangha of bhikkhus, such is this assembly." #95221 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 22, 2009 1:03 am Subject: [dsg] Survey, Ch 35, no 8 nilovg Dear friends, Q. : When there is sati it seems that only dukkha appears, but I cannot separate nåma and rúpa when I experience objects through the senses and through the mind-door. I just have theoretical knowledge of different realities which appear one at a time through the different doorways. I went to a meditation center to gain more knowledge about the practice, but I did not study a great deal, I just practised. S. : Are you satisfied with your understanding or not yet? Q. : I am still studying, thus, I cannot say that I am satisfied. S. : You said that you went to a meditation center in order to study and practise. However, when you went there you did not gain much understanding of realities. Is it then of any use to go there? Q. : It is useful. When we are at home usually many akusala cittas arise. If we go to the meditation center we meet the right friend in Dhamma and we are in a quiet, peaceful place. Thus, there are conditions for the arising of many kusala cittas. I think that the meditation center is useful. S. : There are four factors necessary to attain the stage of the sotåpanna: meeting the right friend in Dhamma, hearing the Dhamma from that person, considering the Dhamma one heard with wise attention and the practice in conformity with the Dhamma. These factors are not related to a particular place where one should stay. We can compare the place where the Buddha stayed with the meditation center at the present time. As to the place where the Buddha and the monks stayed in the past, they led their daily life, making their rounds to collect almsfood, discussing the Dhamma, and performing their different duties in accordance with the Vinaya. The Buddha exhorted people there to perform all kinds of wholesome deeds. Do people in the present time who go to a meditation center practise in the same way as the Buddha’s followers in the past or do they practise differently? If the cause, that is, the practice, is different, how could the result be the same? For example, Anåthapindika, a layfollower at the Buddha’s time who had the Great Monastery (Mahå-vihåra) of the Jeta Grove constructed, did not have the wrong understanding that one could become enlightened only at that particular place. Layfollowers at that time attained enlightenment each in different places, depending on their daily lives. ************ Nina. #95222 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 22, 2009 1:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma. nilovg Hi Herman, Op 22-jan-2009, om 2:09 heeft Herman Hofman het volgende geschreven: > N: Right, but so often the condiitons for sati have been repeated > > here (Howard would say: ad nauseam): listening, considering, > applying > > the dhamma one has heard. > > It raises the question: why have they been repeated so often? Perhaps > it is the wrong voices that are being listened to? Perhaps there is no > wise attention? Perhaps there is no application? ------- N: The reason is ignorance that has been accumulated for aeons. We need to hear Dhamma again and again, listening and considering it with patience. We should not think with conceit: I know already. -------- > > N: Any text in particular, in S V? sati and jhana are inextricably > > intertwined? > > Did the Buddha preach only to those who were skilled in jhaana? > > I could quote you texts ad nauseam, Nina. ------- N: You mentioned S V, so I looked there. Since you mentioned it, could you point to a particular sutta? Nina. #95223 From: Herman Hofman Date: Thu Jan 22, 2009 3:49 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Survey, Ch 35, no 3. egberdina Hi RobE, 2009/1/22 Robert Epstein : > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Herman Hofman > wrote: > > > We seem to be talking way around each other. As I said in my last > post, I do not deny the reality of everyday activities or the ability > to tend to one's body or respond to one's name. What I am saying is > that one must not be attached to this I-sense or think that it is > actual. I understand what you are saying. You are being pragmatic like in MN22: "Very good, monks. I, too, do not envision a clinging to a doctrine of self, clinging to which there would not arise sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, & despair." One cannot be identified with anything and hope to be free of suffering. > Does that mean that I have to go psychotic and make believe I > have no relation to my body? No it does not. Is there an inherent > duality in what I have just said? Yes there is. It is the ability to > live as if one is this body and personality while understanding that > this is not the ultimate truth. It works, you just don't seem to like > it much. When you say "it works", are you claiming that to live as if ...., while understanding there to be an unknown but ultimate truth, ends suffering? Sn 4.11 makes the following claims what the basis for identification is and how and when it ceases. "Now where is the cause of contact in the world, and from where have graspings, possessions, arisen? When what isn't does mine-ness not exist. When what has disappeared do contacts not touch?" "Conditioned by name & form is contact. In longing do graspings, possessions have their cause. When longing isn't mine-ness does not exist. When forms have disappeared contacts don't touch." "For one arriving at what does form disappear? How do pleasure & pain disappear? Tell me this. My heart is set on knowing how they disappear." "One not percipient of perceptions not percipient of aberrant perceptions, not unpercipient, nor percipient of what's disappeared for one arriving at this, form disappears — for complication-classifications have their cause in perception." Sounds like the last formless jhana. I can't tell you whether it works :-) Cheers Herman #95224 From: "Scott" Date: Thu Jan 22, 2009 4:28 am Subject: Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner scottduncan2 Dear All, Continuing: The Path of Purification. "29. 'It is perhaps not so wonderful that an adult who had actually gone forth into homelessness should have acted in that way: but also as an infant he did so. For in the Cuu.la-Dhammapaala Birth Story his hands and feet were ordered to be lopped off like four bamboo shoots by his father, King Hahaapataapa, and his mother lamented over him thus: 'Oh, Dhammapaala's arms are severed That had been bathed in sandalwood; He was the heir to all the earth: O king, my breath is choking me!' (Jaa.iii,181). 'Then his father, still not satisfied, commanded that his head be cut off as well. But even then he had not the least trace of hate, since he had firmly resolved thus: 'Now is the time to restrain your mind; now, good Dhammapaala, be impartial towards these four persons, that is to say, towards your father who is having your head cut off, the man who is beheading you, your lamenting mother, and yourself.' Path of Purity. "That an aged man who had embraced monkhood should show such patience is not wonderful. But in the Cuuladhammapaala-Jaataka (Jaataka iii, 39), it is a child lying on its back: - 'Thou, Dhammapaala, wert by right of birth The Lord of earth: Thy arms, once bathed in oil of sandal-wood. Lie steeped in blood. My fitful breath, alas! is choked with sighs And broken cries.' With the mother thus wailing, the father Mahaapataapa was causing his two hands and tow feet, tender as bamboo-shoots, to be lopped off; and not content therewith he gave an order for his head to be cut off. Dhammapaala established equality of mind firmly thus: 'Now is the time to check thy mind, friend Dhammapaala, keep thou an even mind towards these four: the father who orders the cutting off of thy head, the men who are cutting off thy head, the mother who is wailing, and thyself,' and he did not get offended." Anacchariya~nceta.m, ya.m mahallako pabbajjuupagato eva.m kareyya. Cuu.ladhammapaalajaatake pana uttaanaseyyakopi samaano â€" 'Candanarasaanulittaa, baahaa chijjanti dhammapaalassa; Daayaadassa pathabyaa, paa.naa me deva rujjhantii 'ti. (jaa. 1.5.49); Eva.m vippalapamaanaaya maatuyaa pitaraa mahaapataapena naama ra~n~naa va.msaka.liiresu viya catuusu hatthapaadesu chedaapitesu taavataapi santu.t.thi.m anaapajjitvaa siisamassa chindathaati aa.natte 'aya.m daani te cittaparigga.nhanakaalo, idaani ambho dhammapaala, siisacchedaa.naapake pitari, siisacchedake purise, paridevamaanaaya maatari, attani caati imesu catuusu samacitto hohii 'ti da.lha.m samaadaanamadhi.t.thaaya padu.t.thaakaaramattampi naakaasi. Sincerely, Scott. #95225 From: "connie" Date: Thu Jan 22, 2009 5:00 am Subject: AS time nichiconn Dear Friends, Nyanatiloka continues: When the maatikaa, that remarkable systemization of reality, was laid down in the Abhidhamma, it was obviously regarded as indispensable not only to distinguish those things that are, for example, defilements or not, from those that are associated with them, but also to include in a special category those things that are favorable to defilements, that is, that provide a fertile soil for them (bhuumi), in the sense explained above. The Atthasaalinii, in its exegesis of the maatikaa, gives the following interesting definitions: are those which, when becoming objects, are favorable (hita) to clinging, owing to their connection with (or affinity to) clinging (upaadaana-sambandhena). . By offering themselves as (lit.: making themselves into) objects for a defilement they are liable to it (lit.: deserve it; arahanti); or because they have adapted themselves (niyutta) to a defilement they cannot escape being its objects. ...to be continued, connie #95226 From: "connie" Date: Thu Jan 22, 2009 5:00 am Subject: cornerstone nichiconn Dear Friends, Karunadasa continues: Two kinds of pannatti are distinguished. One is called nama-pannatti and the other attha-pannatti. The first refers to names, words, signs, or symbols through which things, real or unreal, are designated: "It is the mere mode of recognizing (sannakaramatta) by way of this or that word whose significance is determined by worldly convention." 128 It is created by worldly consent (lokasanketa-nimmita) and established by worldly usage (lokavoharena siddha).129 The other, called attha-pannatti, refers to ideas, notions, or concepts corresponding to the names, words, signs, or symbols. It is produced by the interpretative function of the mind (kappana) and is based on the various forms or appearances presented by the real elements when they are in particular situations or positions (avattha-visesa).130 Both nama-pannatti and attha-pannatti thus have a psychological origin and as such both are devoid of objective reality. notes: 128. VsmM 225. 129. ADSVM 53. 130. ADSVM 151; Abhvk 317ff.; MilM 7-8. ...to be continued, connie #95227 From: "Scott" Date: Thu Jan 22, 2009 5:00 am Subject: Re: Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner scottduncan2 Dear Rob E., Regarding: R: "...I agree with you that there is not a coherent personal being apart from conditions and categories, and yet I think the imperative may possibly be used to create such conditions that will allow the right actions to be taken." Scott: Only, I think, if Right View arises from the outset. In this way, no 'imperative' will be misunderstood and no misunderstanding of 'imperatives' will lead to wrong practise. R: "I just think it may be too strict to say that an imperative can never be given, or cannot itself be a condition which will cause certain things to take place. It does not take away, in any case, from the reality that there is no personal volition per se, from a central self, but only the factors that arise because of the conditions that are present." Scott: With Right View, an 'imperative' will be understood to be only a manner of speech and it will be understood that dhammas arise by conditions R: "On the other hand, it may be possible to 'fight fire with fire' by instructing the concept of the personal self in such a way that certain conditions are thus established." Scott: Not at all, in my opinion. With no self *anywhere* to be found, and with 'concepts' having no ultimate reality, the above is, in my view, untenable. There will never be an 'instructing the concept of the personal self.' How can an act conditioned by a belief that by will one can create proper conditions that will lead to anything wholesome? This does not make sense. The above is not possible. There are similar very popular views which hold the same wrong notion. One cannot 'use self to lose self.' It's like saying you can use invisible magic water to put out a fire. It's like saying that the Path arises by mere manipulation of thought. It is not right. It will lead nowhere. Sincerely, Scott. #95228 From: "Scott" Date: Thu Jan 22, 2009 5:11 am Subject: Re: Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner scottduncan2 Dear Rob E., Regarding: Me: "...How can an act conditioned by a belief that by will one can create proper conditions that will lead to anything wholesome? This does not make sense..." Scott: *That* doesn't make sense. Sorry, I meant to say: "...How can an act conditioned by a belief that by will one can create proper conditions lead to anything wholesome? This does not make sense." Scott: And I don't mean to suggest that it is impossible for akusala to serve as condition for kusala - this is not what I'm referring too in the above garbled expression. Sincerely, Scott. #95229 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jan 22, 2009 12:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. upasaka_howard Hi, Robert - In a message dated 1/21/2009 10:37:57 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, epsteinrob@... writes: Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > Howard: > Noting a bodily sensation alone and "as such," would be "knowing the > body in the body," and noting the activity of feeling it as pleasant, > unpleasant, or affectively neutral alone and "as such" would be "knowing feeling in > feeling." > Inasmuch as knowing the rupa and affectively tasting it occur at the > same time (or at a typically indiscernible distance in time), to engage in such > vipassana obviously requires enormous clarity of mind and precise attention. I guess the normal, everyday, lower-level vipassana, if there is such a thing, would at least have insight into the nature of feeling as feeling and/or sensation as sensation, even if it were not at the point where it could distinguish the individual moments of one or the other and how they interact on the micro-temporal level. --------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, let's forget about "moments" for the moment! ;-) Yes, we ordinarily distinguish these various sorts of phenomena to the extent of then being able to basically recognize them. However, I believe there is bound to be some degree of conflating them unless there has been considerable mind development and at a given time of observing attention is extremely precise. --------------------------------------------- Best, Robert =========================== With metta, Howard (Anonymous) #95230 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Thu Jan 22, 2009 6:25 am Subject: Re: What the Buddha said... to whom? abhidhammika Dear Alberto, Nina, Robert K, Sarah, and other like-minded persons How are you? Alberto asked: "Now, can I ask where your view that it doesn't (applies to every day, informal, normal life) comes from?" To my knowledge, I have not yet put forward my view on satipa.t.thaana practice so far in our dialogue. To refresh your memory, I repeat your original statement and my question put to you. Al S: "K. Sujin often asks this question when asked about quotes from Suttas which seem to contradict her understanding on basic aspects of the Dhamma, including formal, sitting meditation (samatha) and informal, daily life practice (satipatthana)." SLZ: Who told you that satipatthana is informal daily life practice? In your original statement, either KS or you or both seemed to equate samatha with formal sitting meditation while equating satipa.t.thaana with informal daily life practice. Instead of answering my question (regarding who identified satipa.t.thaana as informal daily life practice), Alberto merely expressed his view, which is now substantially different from the assertion in his original statement as follows. "My view that satipatthana applies to every day informal, normal life comes from studying & considering what's in tipitaka." Alberto, thank you for providing your view on satipa.t.thaana. Now, I ask you again. So, now do you no longer equate satipa.t.thaana with informal daily life practice as done by KS or by you in your original statement? Yes or No. And, I ask Alberto and all further: Did K Sujin equated satipa.t.thaana with informal daily life practice while equating samatha with formal sitting meditation? My question is very simple, and a simple Yes or No would suffice. Thanking you in advance. Best wishes Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org #95231 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jan 22, 2009 2:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. upasaka_howard Hi, Alberto (and Robert) - In a message dated 1/22/2009 3:24:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, sprlrt@... writes: Hi Robert E., > > You said that you noticed a "subtle shift" in the meaning of sati, so > that it really came to indicate samadhi and not sati, and I asked how > you noticed such a subtle shift. It would be helpful to give some > indication. There's nothing circular about that - I just asked you to > give some idea of how you came to this assertion, but you don't seem > too interested in answering. > > I would like to know how you would account for some of your > assertions, but if not, then I would agree that there is no reason for > the thread to continue. > Sati is different from samadhi (very different), and anapana sati is obviously about sati, not samadhi. The suttas don't mention any specific area of the body on which to focus one's attention, on which to concentrate (samadhi), simply because it's about sati, not samadhi, two unsubtly different dhammas, and when one does just what is not in anapanasati sutta at all, i.e. focus/concentrate on a specific part of the body, can't, imo, claim that he/she is following anapana sati (the Buddha's) "instructions". ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: The rupas constituting the breath serve as anchor or center-point for the meditation. As for samadhi, the jhanas the Buddha taught do not exclude investigation of dhammas. They are not, IMO, the same as what his predecessors taught. (At the end of this post, I add some comments about part of the Anapanasati Sutta.) --------------------------------------------------- Also worth noting are the recipients to whom the Buddha was addressing when delivering the anapanasati discourse. Alberto MN 118, Anapanasati sutta, Nanamoli-Bodhi transl.: "8. Bhikkhus, this assembly if free from prattle, this assembly is free from chatter. It consists purely of heartwood... ...Such an assembly as is rare for the world to see... ..Such as assembly as would be worth journeying many leagues with a travel-bag to see - such is this Sangha of bhikkhus, such is this assembly." ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: I see jhana attainment as possibly included in the following from the Anapanasati Sutta: "[1] On whatever occasion a monk breathing in long discerns, 'I am breathing in long'; or breathing out long, discerns, 'I am breathing out long'; or breathing in short, discerns, 'I am breathing in short'; or breathing out short, discerns, 'I am breathing out short'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&... out sensitive to the entire body'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out calming bodily fabrication': On that occasion the monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. I tell you, monks, that this — the in-&-out breath — is classed as a body among bodies, which is why the monk on that occasion remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. ------------------------------------------------- Howard: The foregoing involves calming body & mind. It is preparatory, I think. -------------------------------------------------- "[2] On whatever occasion a monk trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out sensitive to rapture'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out sensitive to pleasure'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out sensitive to mental fabrication'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out calming mental fabrication': On that occasion the monk remains focused on feelings in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. I tell you, monks, that this — careful attention to in-&-out breaths — is classed as a feeling among feelings,_6_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.118.than.html#n-6) which is why the monk on that occasion remains focused on feelings in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: The foregoing discusses how rapture and pleasure (possibly piti and sukha) then arise and should be attended to, with further calming the body & mind. This may pertain to to the 1st and 2nd jhanas. ------------------------------------------------ "[3] On whatever occasion a monk trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out sensitive to the mind'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out satisfying the mind'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out steadying the mind'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out releasing the mind': On that occasion the monk remains focused on the mind in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. I don't say that there is mindfulness of in-&-out breathing in one of lapsed mindfulness and no alertness, which is why the monk on that occasion remains focused on the mind in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: The foregoing includes growth of satisfaction in the mind and steadying of the mind, which may be the relinquishment of rapture, and this may pertain to the 3rd jhana. ----------------------------------------------- "[4] On whatever occasion a monk trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out focusing on inconstancy'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out focusing on dispassion'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out focusing on cessation'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out focusing on relinquishment': On that occasion the monk remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He who sees with discernment the abandoning of greed & distress is one who watches carefully with equanimity, which is why the monk on that occasion remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. -------------------------------------------- Howard: The foregoing involves focusing on dispassion and watching carefully with equanimity, which may pertain to the 4th jhana. ============================ With metta, Howard (From the Avarana Sutta) #95232 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 22, 2009 7:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. nilovg Dear Rob Ep, Op 22-jan-2009, om 4:22 heeft Robert Epstein het volgende geschreven: > N: Seeing the body in the body, actually in Pali: rupa in rupa. > > So would it be right to say that Buddha's point here is to see "only > rupa in the perception of the body." Would that be a way of putting > it? ----------- N:In short: no self in the body. I quote from the Co to the satipatthana sutta (here is the link: It is worth studying: the Way of mIndfulness by Ven. Soma. --------- quote: end quote. (your next Q comes next time) Nina. #95233 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 22, 2009 7:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Beginner abhidhamma questions nilovg Dear Ann, Op 21-jan-2009, om 23:04 heeft glenjohnann het volgende geschreven: > Nina, you have said above that conceit is never accompanied by > wrong view. I have probably heard this discussed before, however, > either I can't remember those discussions or I never really > understood, probably the latter. I recall that conceit involves any > type of comparison (better than, same as, not as good as etc). I > would have thought that this comparison would be based on a view that > there is "self" entity. > > Can you please elaborate on why it is that conceit does not arise > with wrong view. -------- N: Conceit does not only arise when comparing oneself with others. It arises when one clings to the importance of oneself. This is different from having wrong view, thinking that a self is permanent or will be annihilated. The sotaapanna has eradicated wrong view, but not conceit. He may think 'his own' namas and rupas better than those of someone else, or his understanding better than someone else's. The arahat has eradicated all conceit, also the subtle forms of it. When for us wrong view arises, we have a certain view about self, and this is different from pride or conceit, flying a banner, as is said in the Co. When flying a banner, advertising ourselves, the object of the citta is different from the object the citta with wrong view experiences. Thus, they do not arise at the same time. Both of them accompany citta rooted in lobha, but not at the same time. Nina. #95234 From: "sprlrt" Date: Thu Jan 22, 2009 7:32 am Subject: Re: What the Buddha said... to whom? sprlrt Dear Suan, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "abhidhammika" wrote: > > > And, I ask Alberto and all further: Did K Sujin equated > satipa.t.thaana with informal daily life practice while equating > samatha with formal sitting meditation? > > My question is very simple, and a simple Yes or No would suffice. > I am afraid that keeping your views on the subject of satipatthana for yourself won't improve our "dialogue", Mr. prosecutor. Alberto Spera #95235 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 22, 2009 7:46 am Subject: Rob Ep's Q. was: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. nilovg Dear Rob Ep, continuation: N: ...Body-consciousness is vipaakacitta and it > is accompanied by bodily feeling that is also vipaaka. Are you saying that "body consciousness" is a particular type of citta? Does it include the whole category of various perceptions of the body, or is it specific type of body perception? ------- N: It is one of the five sense-cognitions that are vipaakacitta, result of kamma, such as seeing, hearing etc. These five experience a sense object through one of the five sense-doors. Body-consciousnes (kaya-vi~n~naa.na) experiences hardness or softness (Element of Earth), heat or cold (Element of Fire) and motion or pressure (Element of Wind). Seeing is accompanied by indifferent feeling, but body-consciousness is accompanied by pleasant bodily feeling or painful bodily feeling, since the impact of the object is more violent than in the case of seeing. Body-consciousness arises in a process of cittas which have a certain fixed order. First there is the adverting-consciousness, then the vipaakacitta of body-consciousness to be followed by two more vipaakacittas. Then follows the determining-consciousness and after that the javanacittas which are either kusala cittas or akusala cittas (the reaction to the object experienced). We often have akusala cittas with like or dislike. --------- N:...The different cittas in a > process arise so closely one after the other that it is difficult to > distinguish between them. ------- R: Is there a simple way to indicate the order in which a group of cittas with their cetasikas might follow in sequence? For instance, is there "body-awareness" followed by some cittas of "hardness, firmness, pain, movement," etc., interspersed with "pleasure, uncertainty, neutrality, tiredness, annoyance, heaviness,"etc. or some such order that adds up to the process? ------- N: I gave the order of cittas above only in short. The akusala cittas can be accompanied by different kinds of akusala cetasikas. Then follows another process of cittas experiencing the same object through the mind-door. Here again there are javana cittas that are kusala or akusala. Painful bodily feeling that is vipaaka is rather a passive kind of feeling, but it is so closely followed by akusala citta with mental unhappy feeling that it is hard to know the difference. For processes you can look at my Abhidhamma in Daily life< http:// www.zolag.co.uk/ > free downloads. Nina. #95236 From: "sprlrt" Date: Thu Jan 22, 2009 8:42 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. sprlrt Hi Howard, > ---------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I see jhana attainment as possibly included in the following from the > Anapanasati Sutta: > ... As far as I know anapana is not included in the 40 objects, inc. 10 kasinas, suitable for samatha bhavana and jhanas. Alberto #95237 From: "sprlrt" Date: Thu Jan 22, 2009 9:17 am Subject: Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. sprlrt Hi Howard, Correction: I've just checked the chapter on Samatha bhavana of K.Sujin's Survey, anapanasati is one of the 10 anussati, an object suitable for samatha bhavana (up to pancama jhana level). Sorry. Alberto #95238 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jan 22, 2009 4:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. upasaka_howard Hi, Alberto - ... As far as I know anapana is not included in the 40 objects, inc. 10 kasinas, suitable for samatha bhavana and jhanas. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: No, you're mistaken, Alberto. It is one of the ten recollections. ------------------------------------------------ Alberto ========================= With metta, Howard (From the Avarana Sutta) #95239 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jan 22, 2009 4:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. upasaka_howard Hi, Alberto - In a message dated 1/22/2009 12:18:03 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, sprlrt@... writes: Hi Howard, Correction: I've just checked the chapter on Samatha bhavana of K.Sujin's Survey, anapanasati is one of the 10 anussati, an object suitable for samatha bhavana (up to pancama jhana level). Sorry. Alberto ========================== :-) I just wrote you about that a couple minutes ago. In any case: No problem; the mention of the breath as meditation object among the "top 40" ;-) is easy to miss. With metta, Howard (From the Avarana Sutta) #95240 From: "Graham" Date: Thu Jan 22, 2009 9:03 am Subject: help please! grahamarussell Dhamma Study Group (DSG)Dear friends, I know that generally Buddhist teaching is opposed to fortune telling. I am aware of a scriptural reference to the role of a fortune teller being inappropriate for a monk, but are there any references in scripture regarding fortune telling and the laity? Can anyone help please? With metta, Graham #95241 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 22, 2009 11:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] help please! nilovg Dear Graham, welcome here. Op 22-jan-2009, om 18:03 heeft Graham het volgende geschreven: > I know that generally Buddhist teaching is opposed to fortune telling. > > I am aware of a scriptural reference to the role of a fortune > teller being inappropriate for a monk, but are there any references > in scripture regarding fortune telling and the laity? ------ N: Not that I know of, but also for laypeople it is helpful to study the Vinaya, since it explains what is kusala and what is akusala. Many things in the Vinaya can also be a guideline for laypeople in their own situation. We should find out: what is the citta like that is interested in fortune telling? Is it akusala citta rooted in attachment? Whatever happens to us in the future depends on kamma and who are we to know what kamma brings which result in the future? It is more valuable to get to know the citta arising at the present moment: is it kusala or akusala? Can we control which citta arises now? It is beyond control, anatta. By engaging in fortune telling we miss the essence of the Buddha's teaching: to develop understanding of all phenomena within us and around us. We may wish to know what wilkl happen in the future, but we forget the present moment. Nina. #95242 From: Herman Hofman Date: Thu Jan 22, 2009 12:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. egberdina Hi Howard, 2009/1/23 : > Hi, Alberto (and Robert) - > ---------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I see jhana attainment as possibly included in the following from the > Anapanasati Sutta: > Being the careful person you are, I believe you understate your case: "In the same way, there are cases where a foolish, inexperienced, unskillful monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. As he remains thus focused on the body in & of itself, his mind does not become concentrated, his defilements are not abandoned. He does not take note of that fact. He remains focused on feelings in & of themselves... the mind in & of itself... mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. As he remains thus focused on mental qualities in & of themselves, his mind does not become concentrated, his defilements are not abandoned. He does not take note of that fact. As a result, he is not rewarded with a pleasant abiding here & now, nor with mindfulness & alertness. Why is that? Because the foolish, inexperienced, unskillful monk does not take note of his own mind. (SN47.8) Cheers Herman #95243 From: Herman Hofman Date: Thu Jan 22, 2009 12:06 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. egberdina Hi Alberto, 2009/1/23 sprlrt : > Hi Howard, >> > > Correction: > I've just checked the chapter on Samatha bhavana of K.Sujin's Survey, > anapanasati is one of the 10 anussati, an object suitable for samatha > bhavana (up to pancama jhana level). Sorry. > What a strange thing to do, to have a book as the arbiter of what is possible ??? Cheers Herman #95244 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jan 22, 2009 8:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. upasaka_howard Hi, Herman - In a message dated 1/22/2009 3:02:15 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, hhofmeister@... writes: Hi Howard, 2009/1/23 : > Hi, Alberto (and Robert) - > ---------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I see jhana attainment as possibly included in the following from the > Anapanasati Sutta: > Being the careful person you are, I believe you understate your case: --------------------------------------------- Howard: Thanks for putting that so nicely! :-) ----------------------------------------- "In the same way, there are cases where a foolish, inexperienced, unskillful monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. As he remains thus focused on the body in & of itself, his mind does not become concentrated, his defilements are not abandoned. He does not take note of that fact. He remains focused on feelings in & of themselves... the mind in & of itself... mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. As he remains thus focused on mental qualities in & of themselves, his mind does not become concentrated, his defilements are not abandoned. He does not take note of that fact. As a result, he is not rewarded with a pleasant abiding here & now, nor with mindfulness & alertness. Why is that? Because the foolish, inexperienced, unskillful monk does not take note of his own mind. (SN47.8) ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Wow, what a terrific and relevant quote! ---------------------------------------------- Cheers Herman ========================= With metta, Howard (From the Avarana Sutta) #95245 From: "lawrencebouhami@..." Date: Thu Jan 22, 2009 11:47 am Subject: new member lawrencebouh... Hello people, just a quick email to introduce myself. My name is Lawrence and I live in The Netherlands. I got interested in Buddhism 6 months ago and since then I've been rapidly gaining a sense of what Buddhism is about, although the more I (think to) know the more my understanding changes. But Buddhism already has had a big positive influence on my life to make me decide to sign up for a 21-day retreat in a Buddhist monastery in Chang Mai, Thailand this March. While searching online for texts to further my understanding of the Dhamma I came across an e-book called Abhidhamma in Daily Life (ADL). This happened when I started to get interested in the Abhidhamma. I felt that despite its pretty inaccessible nature the Abhidhamma could enrich my understanding of the Buddha's words in a big way. But texts about the Abhidhamma were hard to find and the ones I found were helpful but still left me with a lot of questions. But ADL has done a lot to further my understanding. I hope by becoming a member of this group I can learn more and who knows maybe I can help some new members out as well in the future. Thanks for reading! Kind regards Lawrence #95246 From: "connie" Date: Thu Jan 22, 2009 5:24 pm Subject: Re: Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner nichiconn Dear Sarah, Regarding: S: "And now I have one for Scott & all: The recent Metta extracts about ignoring the ill behaviours and reflecting on the good ones and so on reminds me of the MN sutta along the same lines. I've posted from it before. Which sutta is it?" c: would you settle for one from AN Book of Fives, Ch.XVII - Malice -? The second one (162). The cases of a person whose ways are impure in deed, but not in word; impure in word but pure in deed; impure in both yet from time to time obtains mental clarity and calm; impure in both but doesn't obtain clarity and calm. and pure in deed and word plus obtains mental clarity and calm. ...With a couple of footnotes when it talks about "a man, tortued by heat" etc coming to a slimy, overgrown and a cool clear pond referencing M ii 74 & M I 76, 283. Sorry, MN's downstairs & this one's 3 pages. The first of these AN's says amity, pity & poise ought to be made to become more; I like this one: "in whomsoever malice is engendered, in that man unmindfulness, inattention to it, ought to be brought about"; and fifth is to recall 'the matrix'. peace, connie #95247 From: "connie" Date: Thu Jan 22, 2009 6:24 pm Subject: re: help please! nichiconn Dear Graham, G: ...are there any references in scripture regarding fortune telling and the laity? c: I'm not sure whether this 'diviner by curious cermonies' fits, but here's a sutta from the AN Book of Fives, Layman chapter: (175) The outcast 'Monks, pursuing five things, a layman is the outcast of laymen, the dirt of laymen, the offscouring of laymen. What five? He is without faith, without morals, is a diviner by curious ceremonies, he believes in luck, not deeds, he seeks outside (the Order) for a gift-worthy person and there first offers service. Monks, pursuing these five things, a layman is the outcast of laymen, the dirt, the offscouring of laymen. Monks, pursuing five things, a layman is the jewel of laymen, the lily of laymen, the lotus of laymen. What five? (Just the opposite five... sutta repeats for these) N: Can we control which citta arises now? It is beyond control, anatta. By engaging in fortune telling we miss the essence of the Buddha's teaching: to develop understanding of all phenomena within us and around us. peace, connie #95248 From: "ptaus1" Date: Thu Jan 22, 2009 7:44 pm Subject: Re: Beginner abhidhamma questions ptaus1 Dear Nina, Thank you for your reply and for answering Ann's question about conceit, that's something I've been wondering about as well. In particular: Nina van Gorkom wrote: > The sotaapanna has eradicated wrong view, but not conceit. He may > think 'his own' namas and rupas better than those of someone else, or > his understanding better than someone else's. 1. How is this different from sakkaya-ditthi? I mean, isn't the sotaapanna here conceiving a self in "his own" namas and rupas? 2. I understand that ditthi and conceit are different cetasikas, but I'm having trouble understanding why they are exclusive of eachother. You said that that the cittas they arise with have different objects. How so? I mean, to me it seems that a view is a mental object, just like the idea of being better is also mental object. I might be confusing something here. 3. I think that sometimes I take pride in my views. So in this instance, would conceit and wrong view still have to arise with different cittas and it only seems to me that they arise together because my insight is weak? Thanks pt #95249 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Jan 22, 2009 7:47 pm Subject: Re: What the Buddha said... to whom? kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "abhidhammika" wrote: > > > > > > Dear Alberto, Nina, Robert K, Sarah, and other like-minded persons > Hi Suan, Alberto and all, Look's like it's time to stand up and be counted. :-) So I will go on record as saying there are no formal practices of *any* kind. Let alone samatha and vipassana, even shelling peas (to take the first example to come into my head) is beyond ultimate control. The peas, the shells, the person doing the shelling, and the process of shelling are all non-existent in ultimate reality (where there are only namas and rupas). Ken H <. . .> > In your original statement, either KS or you or both seemed to > equate samatha with formal sitting meditation while equating > satipa.t.thaana with informal daily life practice. > #95250 From: "connie" Date: Thu Jan 22, 2009 8:02 pm Subject: truth and prepared seats nichiconn Dear Sarah, James, some time back i said something about having heard that all the precepts, esp. that on speaking the truth were based on the idea of non-harming but I didn't & still don't have any reference. I wonder, though, if the idea might have come from a somewhat casual reading of the following from the Book of Fours: (185) Braahmin truths. [...] 'Well, Wanderers, these four braahmin truths have been set forth by myself after fully comprehending and realizing them for myself. What four? In this case, Wanderers, **the braahmin says thus: "All living things are not to be harmed."^2 So saying, a braahmin speaks truth, not falsehood.** Therein he has no conceit of "recluse" or "brahmin." He has no conceit of "better am I," "equal am I," "inferior am I." Moreover by fully comprehending the truth contained in that saying he is bent on the practice of mercy and compassion for all living things. [...] That part about so saying... is repeated after each of the other truths, but check out the footnote for this first one!: p183 n2: Avajjhaa. Text strangely reads avijjaa (?). I also thought it was interesting that "when the Exalted One reached those Wanderers, on coming to them he sat down on a seat made ready." Was that prepared seat a fairly common thing, then and not just something 'our' bhikkhus did? peace, connie #95251 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Thu Jan 22, 2009 9:30 pm Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Survey, Ch 35, no 3. epsteinrob --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Herman Hofman wrote: > > Hi RobE, > > 2009/1/22 Robert Epstein : > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Herman Hofman > > wrote: > > > > > > We seem to be talking way around each other. As I said in my last > > post, I do not deny the reality of everyday activities or the ability > > to tend to one's body or respond to one's name. What I am saying is > > that one must not be attached to this I-sense or think that it is > > actual. > > I understand what you are saying. You are being pragmatic like in MN22: > > "Very good, monks. I, too, do not envision a clinging to a doctrine of > self, clinging to which there would not arise sorrow, lamentation, > pain, grief, & despair." > > One cannot be identified with anything and hope to be free of suffering. that is what I am thinking, in this case specifically with the I-sense, as it tends to develop a defense system built up around it that makes ordinary suffering even worse. an I-sense however that is practical for doing things and making sense, but is sort of "transparent" doesn't accumulate as much attachment. Like an "I" that just does something because it's needed, as opposed to an "I" that says "Did you see what I did? Aren't you going to give me credit for this?" And then get upset if not acknowledged. > > > Does that mean that I have to go psychotic and make believe I > > have no relation to my body? No it does not. Is there an inherent > > duality in what I have just said? Yes there is. It is the ability to > > live as if one is this body and personality while understanding that > > this is not the ultimate truth. It works, you just don't seem to like > > it much. > > When you say "it works", are you claiming that to live as if ...., > while understanding there to be an unknown but ultimate truth, ends > suffering? Well I would more likely say that "it works" as a provisional position to make the "I" less intense, but suffering won't be totally relieved until the "I" identification is totally understood for what it is and one is really detached from it. I do think it could be possible to detach from the identification with the "I" pretty thoroughly while still having it function in the world. I hope that is the case. > > Sn 4.11 makes the following claims what the basis for identification > is and how and when it ceases. > > "Now where is the cause > of contact in the world, > and from where have graspings, > possessions, arisen? > When what isn't > does mine-ness not exist. > When what has disappeared > do contacts not touch?" > > "Conditioned by name & form > is contact. > In longing do graspings, > possessions have their cause. > When longing isn't > mine-ness does not exist. > When forms have disappeared > contacts don't touch." > > "For one arriving at what > does form disappear? > How do pleasure & pain disappear? > Tell me this. > My heart is set > on knowing how > they disappear." > > "One not percipient of perceptions > not percipient of aberrant perceptions, > not unpercipient, > nor percipient of what's disappeared > for one arriving at this, > form disappears — > for complication-classifications > have their cause in perception." > > > Sounds like the last formless jhana. I can't tell you whether it works :-) Well....prior to the last formless jhana, perhaps letting go of identification with self can reduce suffering if not end it. [Also we may be able to take "jhana vacations" from suffering if we learn how to do it, but it does require a lot of time I have been hearing..."] Robert = = = = = = = = = = #95252 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Thu Jan 22, 2009 9:33 pm Subject: Re: Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner epsteinrob Hi Scott. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott" wrote: > How can an act conditioned by a belief that by will one can create > proper conditions that will lead to anything wholesome? This does not > make sense. The above is not possible. Do you think this also applies to the practice of generating metta in relation to "living beings" who are also just a concept? Isn't that self-delusion as well? Best, Robert E. =========================== #95253 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Thu Jan 22, 2009 9:36 pm Subject: Re: Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner epsteinrob Hi Scott. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott" wrote: > > Dear Rob E., > > Regarding: > > Me: "...How can an act conditioned by a belief that by will one can > create proper conditions that will lead to anything wholesome? This > does not make sense..." > > Scott: *That* doesn't make sense. Sorry, I meant to say: > > "...How can an act conditioned by a belief that by will one can create > proper conditions lead to anything wholesome? This does not make sense." > > Scott: And I don't mean to suggest that it is impossible for akusala > to serve as condition for kusala - this is not what I'm referring too > in the above garbled expression. Well that is an interesting possibility. Since what we mostly have is akusala, I would think, it would be good to at least see into it in a way that produces some possibility of kusala arising. Robert ======================= #95254 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Thu Jan 22, 2009 9:38 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. epsteinrob Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: Yes, we > ordinarily distinguish these various sorts of phenomena to the extent of then being > able to basically recognize them. However, I believe there is bound to be some > degree of conflating them unless there has been considerable mind development > and at a given time of observing attention is extremely precise. Yeah, I figure I'm about at the "tiny hammer hitting a giant nail" stage or something like that.... Robert - - - - - - - - - - #95255 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Thu Jan 22, 2009 9:43 pm Subject: Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. epsteinrob --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > ----------------------------------------------- > "[4] On whatever occasion a monk trains himself, 'I will breathe > in...&...out focusing on inconstancy'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out > focusing on dispassion'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out focusing on > cessation'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out focusing on > relinquishment': On that occasion the monk remains focused on mental qualities in & > of themselves â€" ardent, alert, & mindful â€" putting aside greed & distress > with reference to the world. He who sees with discernment the abandoning of > greed & distress is one who watches carefully with equanimity, which is why the > monk on that occasion remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves â€" > ardent, alert, & mindful â€" putting aside greed & distress with reference to > the world. > -------------------------------------------- > Howard: > The foregoing involves focusing on dispassion and watching carefully with > equanimity, which may pertain to the 4th jhana. > ============================ > With metta, > Howard Great notes, Howard! I think that is a very likely breakdown and appreciate the structure. Best, Robert E. ================= #95257 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Thu Jan 22, 2009 9:53 pm Subject: Re: Rob Ep's Q. was: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. epsteinrob Hi Nina! [repeating with greeting.] --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > N: I gave the order of cittas above only in short. The akusala cittas > can be accompanied by different kinds of akusala cetasikas. Then > follows another process of cittas experiencing the same object > through the mind-door. Here again there are javana cittas that are > kusala or akusala. > > Painful bodily feeling that is vipaaka is rather a passive kind of > feeling, but it is so closely followed by akusala citta with mental > unhappy feeling that it is hard to know the difference. > > For processes you can look at my Abhidhamma in Daily life< http:// > www.zolag.co.uk/ > free downloads. > > Nina. Thank you, Nina, for both sets of quotes, in the two separate posts. I will also follow up to look at the processes via your book online, as time will allow. Best, Robert E. ============================= #95258 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Thu Jan 22, 2009 10:22 pm Subject: Re: What the Buddha said... to whom? abhidhammika Dear Alberto, Ken H, Nina, Robert K, Sarah, and others How are you? Alberto wrote: "I am afraid that keeping your views on the subject of satipatthana for yourself won't improve our "dialogue", Mr. prosecutor." Alberto, I am merely a lay puthujjana follower of Theravada. As such, I have no personal views (attanomati) on satipa.t.thaana. Conversely, being a follower of Theravada eliminates the need for promoting my personal views as though they were part of the Buddha's teachings. On rare occasions, I may express my personal views on aspects of Theravada. On such occasions, I will try my best to include a disclaimer such as "this is merely my personal opinion (attanomati)", to help readers discount it as something outside the Buddhist teachings. This type of offering a disclaimer can be found in ancient Pali commentarial literature. I follow their example. So, now, to improve our dialogue, all you need to do is come clean and answer my simple questions. To refresh your memory, I repeat your original statement and my question put to you. Al S: "K. Sujin often asks this question when asked about quotes from Suttas which seem to contradict her understanding on basic aspects of the Dhamma, including formal, sitting meditation (samatha) and informal, daily life practice (satipatthana)." SLZ: Who told you that satipatthana is informal daily life practice? ________________________________________________________ In your original statement, either KS or you or both seemed to be equating samatha with formal sitting meditation while equating satipa.t.thaana with informal daily life practice. Alberto, in your second last post, you wrote: "My view that satipatthana applies to every day informal, normal life comes from studying & considering what's in tipitaka." You will notice that your above view is much weaker than and substantially different from the assertion in your original statement where satipa.t.thaana was equated to informal daily life practice. Do you agree with my above assessment? Because of this shift in your position, I had a chance to ask you a new question as follows. Alberto, do you no longer equate satipa.t.thaana with informal daily life practice? A simple answer Yes or No is all it takes to cope with the above simple question? Moreover, a shift in your view has also opened a loophole where there was a possibility that satipa.t.thaana may well be more than an informal daily life practice. And, precisely because of this new possibility, I had another chance to ask a further question as follows. "Did K Sujin equate satipa.t.thaana with informal daily life practice while equating samatha with formal sitting meditation?" Any so-called KS folk can answer the above question, and, again, a simple Yes or No would suffice. Alberto and other KS folks, I can assure you that I am not a prosecutor. I am merely a follower of the Vibhajjavaadii, the Buddha. A vibbhajjavaadii is a speaker by means of analysis. I am merely emulating our Satthaa, the Buddha. And I am a kind man by virtue of reciting Metta Suttam every day, so please answer my questions fearlessly. Thanking you in advance. Best wishes Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org #95259 From: "szmicio" Date: Thu Jan 22, 2009 10:54 pm Subject: Re: thinking and vitakka szmicio Dear Sarah > > L: Recently I forget about reality and cling to points of view. > > Akusala are really strong. No chance to get out from this. > ... > S: No chance by Self, the only 'chance' is by panna, one moment at a > time. As I heard KS say on a tape when a friend mentioned the path > was too long and difficult: "We have to be courageous, one moment to > another, to develop understanding. Otherwise it's lobha again." When > progress seems so slow, KS responded: "The self is there again." So > true! > > Later, in the discussion: > > KS: "Are you looking for something?.....If one looks for other > moments - impossible to understand dukkha right now.If one does not > understand reality right now, clinging takes one away from this > moment -wanting to experience the one which hasn't come yet." L: Thanks for nice reminder. Generally I have some doubts about vitakka. Seeing sees. It doesnt know anything about shapes, forms. It doesn't even know whether rupa which impinges on eyesense is red or white. Seeing experiences only ruupaayatana. It's a function of seeing. But later on when we differentiate colours and shapes there is thinking on account of what we saw. Does vitakka arise in those moments. I hope you're enjoying your stay in Fiji, Sarah. Best wishes Lukas #95260 From: "reverendaggacitto" Date: Thu Jan 22, 2009 10:59 pm Subject: A Vinaya question reverendagga... Hi Everybody! i have a Vinaya question, if anybody can help me here i would certainly appreciate it! The rule against somebody joining the Sangha who is not complete in all 32 body parts how did this come about?The rule against joining while one still has debts? I've seen it portrayed(the 32 bodly parts rule) as something cold hearted on the part of Ven.Gotama i can figure how this probally came about but would rather make sure if possible. Where would i find this in the Vinaya? Thanks Everybody! Om Namah Dhamma Gotama! bhikkhu/reverend aggacitto #95261 From: "sprlrt" Date: Thu Jan 22, 2009 11:24 pm Subject: Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. sprlrt Hi Herman, > > > I've just checked the chapter on Samatha bhavana of K.Sujin's Survey, > > anapanasati is one of the 10 anussati, an object suitable for samatha > > bhavana (up to pancama jhana level). Sorry. > > > > What a strange thing to do, to have a book as the arbiter of what is > possible ??? > IMO Survey of paramattha dhammas is by far the best single book on all the three pitaka available, a must for anyone in search for the right path. Alberto #95262 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Jan 23, 2009 12:36 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. jonoabb Hi Howard > That is my point. There is an objection on "philosophical" grounds, > but that requires a certain mindset to be of any significance. For a > person not versed in "philosophical" discussion, no such objection > arises. > ----------------------------------------------- > Howard: > IMO, it's not that simple. As you know, I believe that the speech we use > affects our mind, belief, inclinations, and actions. Speech is a force, and > our language usage needs to be carefully guarded as to its effect. > --------------------------------------------- Yes, we've discussed this belief on a previous occasion. As I said then, the proposition that a person's thoughts are affected by what he or she says when speaking to others is not one that's supported by the texts. To my understanding, the position is rather that a what a person says would be a reflection of what he or she thinks (this seemed to be borne out by the suttas you quoted). Jon #95263 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Jan 23, 2009 12:41 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The object of meditation in metta meditation jonoabb Hi Robert > It still doesn't make sense to me that having *any* view of "another > sentient being" could ever be kusala, given that it is a delusion. > Having kusala metta arise for a delusory concept of a person would > seem to be wishing non-suffering to a source of suffering, namely the > very illusion of self that we are trying to gain release from. Would you mind clarifying what you mean by a "view of "another sentient being"". Do you mean just any idea at all? If so that would suggest that most people's day was filled with wrong view. As I understand it there is a distinction to be made between the concept of a being and the view that beings are 'real' in the ultimate sense. The former does not necessarily imply the latter. Jon #95264 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 23, 2009 12:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] new member nilovg Beste Lawrence, hartelijk welkom in deze groep. Op 22-jan-2009, om 20:47 heeft lawrencebouhami@... het volgende geschreven: > I came across an e-book called Abhidhamma in Daily Life (ADL). > This happened when I started to get interested in the Abhidhamma. I > felt that despite its pretty inaccessible nature the Abhidhamma could > enrich my understanding of the Buddha's words in a big way. But texts > about the Abhidhamma were hard to find and the ones I found were > helpful but still left me with a lot of questions. But ADL has done a > lot to further my understanding. -------- N: My ADL has been translated into Dutch: Abhidhamma in het Dagelijks Leven, . Perhaps this helps. Any questions are welcome, and gradually you will realize that the Abhidhamma is not as inaccessible as you thought at first. Here are several newcomers who became interested in the Abhidhamma and also have questions and so your joining in is most helpful, both to beginners and those who have studied for a longer time. I myself am interested in any question since that helps me to consider more. Looking forward to further discussions, Nina. #95265 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Fri Jan 23, 2009 12:51 am Subject: Re: Sujin, what does she teach? was What the Buddha said... to whom? rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "abhidhammika" wrote: > > > > Dear Alberto, Ken H, Nina, Robert K, Sarah, and others > > How are you? > >> Moreover, a shift in your view has also opened a loophole where > there was a possibility that satipa.t.thaana may well be more than > an informal daily life practice. > > And, precisely because of this new possibility, I had another chance > to ask a further question as follows. > > "Did K Sujin equate satipa.t.thaana with informal daily life > practice while equating samatha with formal sitting meditation?" > > Any so-called KS folk can answer the above question, and, again, a > simple Yes or No would suffice. > > ++++++++ Dear Suan I will try an answer but a simple yes of no won't really do justice to khun Sujin's expression of Dhamma. Just to give you an idea in the Thai tapes of her talks now run to over 2000 hours and these have been edited to cut out repeititions. Anyway I try to summarize in a few posts. Let's look at the latest book by Sujin Boriharnwanaket: http://www.zolag.co.uk/1897633238text.pdf The Perfections Leading to Enlightenment Translated by Nina van Gorkom Find places where you agree or disagree and then we can have a dialogue. Extract: """We cannot know for how long in the future each one of us will have to develop and accumulate the ten perfections. However, during the lifespan that we can do so, we SHOULD DEVELOP EACH OF THE PERFECTIONS as much as we are able to. The ten perfections have lobha, attachment, as their opposite and, therefore, we should not forget that we should develop them not because we expect a result of kusala, but because we see the danger of each kind of akusala. We should not develop the perfections because we wish for a result to materialize within the cycle ofbirth and death, but because our aim is the eradication of defilements and eventually to reach the end of the cycle of birth and death. The end of the cycle can be attained when all defilements have been eradicated completely.""" Khun Sujin likes to explicate the real conditions for inisght leading to enligtnement. Not by willing and wanting but by fulfilling the parami can insight arises. With reagrd to meditation, she thinks that the various new techniques that became common in teh 2oth century are part of the reason Buddhists have lost their way in this age. Meditation - as a translation of bhavana, as used in the pali - she greatly encourages. But she thinks it should be developed at any time, whether in seclusion or with people. From anothe rbook Deeds of Merit http://www.abhidhamma.org/meri3.html Sujin. : If someone wants to apply himself to the development of kusala citta with calm to the degree of attainment concentration, which is jhaana, he must have a detailed knowledge of samatha bhaavanaa. He must know which meditation subject he should recollect, and how he should do this with kusala citta accompanied by pa~n~naa, so that there is true calm and he can reach different levels of samaadhi, concentration. He should also know that there are different types of persons who develop kusala citta with calm and that these types of persons can, accordingly, attain different levels of calm. All this is very intricate. Do you wish to develop samatha to the degree of jhaana? W. : One needs to study this subject in great detail, and, moreover, jhaana can only temporarily subdue defilements. Therefore, I prefer to develop insight, vipassanaa. Vipassanaa can eradicate defilements completely, so that they never arise again. Sujin. : It is still necessary to discuss samatha bhaavanaa, because we should know the difference between the level of bhaavanaa which is the temporary subduing of defilements by calm and the level which is the complete eradication of defilements. W. : Even if we do not intend to develop calm to the degree of the different levels of samaadhi we can still frequently recollect in our daily life meditation subjects which condition calm and purity of citta, so that defilements are subdued and do not arise at such moments. We can make this into a habit so that it becomes our natural inclination. Can we call this the development of calm? Sujin.: Certainly. The frequent recollection of subjects which condition calm of citta is a way to prevent defilements from arising. But the degree of calm depends on awareness and understanding of the characteristic of the kusala citta with calm which is different from akusala citta. One should also know how conditions for higher degrees of calm can be developed. W. : Not just any subject of recollection is suitable for the arising of kusala citta with calm. Some objects of thinking cause us to be absorbed with clinging and then there is certainly no calm. At times we think of something which makes us disturbed; we wish to possess it and try with all our energy to acquire it. For example, we may wish to have something special, such as a beautiful cloth; we keep on thinking of it and decide to buy just that. How can we in such situations recollect a subject which is the condition for kusala citta with calm? Sujin.: For the development of calm there are forty meditation subjects. If these subjects are often recollected they can be the condition for the development of calm. In that way calm will become firmly established so that the level of samaadhi will be reached. These forty subjects are called samatha kamma~n~nhaana, exercises of meditation in samatha. These subjects have to be distinguished as to the different degrees of samaadhi they can condition. Some of them can be the condition only for the degree of access concentration, upacaara samaadhi, the concentration which is only approaching jhaana, not yet the degree of appanaa samaadhi, attainment concentration, which is jhaana. Some subjects can be the condition only for attainment concentration of the first stage of jhaana. Whereas some subjects are the condition for the first up to the fourth stage of jhaana. Other subjects can lead only to the fifth stage of jhaana. Other subjects again are the condition for the first up to the fifth stage of jhaana. Some subjects which are recollected by kusala citta and which can be the condition for calm to the degree of access concentration but not to the degree of jhaana, have to be distinguished as to the types of people for whom they are suitable. W. : As regards the meditation subjects which are recollected by kusala citta and which can accordingly be the condition for different degrees of samaadhi, I find all this very subtle and detailed. One must really study this subject in order to understand it and one must really develop samatha in the right way, without misleading oneself, for the attainment of calm which is firmly established, that is to say, the different degrees of samaadhi. Which subject among the forty meditation subjects do you think we should recollect in our daily life? Which subjects are suitable as a condition for the development of calm with the purpose of subduing defilements? This is another level of kusala besides the levels of daana, generosity, and siila, morality. Sujin. : The monks are accustomed to practise continuously, for a long time, four meditation subjects of samatha, in order to have calm of citta and to subdue defilements which can disturb them. Laypeople can also practise these four meditation subjects. The Dhamma and the Vinaya which the monks practise can also be applied by layfollowers in their own situation, as a means of subduing defilements. W. : What are these four meditation subjects? Sujin. : Recollection of the excellent qualities of the Buddha, the development of mettaa (loving kindness), perception of repulsiveness and mindfulness of death. W. : Before going to sleep we praise the excellent qualities of the Buddha by reciting the words: Itipi so bhagavaa: -araha~n, sammaasambuddho, vijjaa cara~nasampanno, sugato, lokaviduu, anuttaro purisadamma-saarathi, satthaa devamanussaana~n, buddho, bhagavaa tii. This means: That Blessed One is such since he is accomplished, fully enlightened, endowed with (clear) vision and (virtuous) conduct, sublime, the knower of the worlds, the incomparable leader of men to be tamed, the teacher of gods and men, enlightened and blessed. Is this a way of mental development which is calm? Sujin. : The recitation we do every night before going to sleep is the paying of respect to the Buddha. This is a meritorious action of the level of siila, because it is kusala performed through body and speech. But for kusala citta with calm of the level of samatha it is not sufficient to merely recite words, but it is also necessary to recollect, to ponder over the excellent qualities of the Buddha. W. : In which way can I recollect the excellent qualities of the Buddha? Sujin. : We can recollect the wisdom of the Buddha by which he attained enlightenment. We can recollect the purity of the Buddha who completely eradicated all defilements. We can recollect the great compassion of the Buddha who taught the Dhamma in manifold ways with the purpose of helping all living beings. At the moment we recollect the excellent qualities of the Buddha there is kusala citta with calm, which is free from defilements, because we do not think of other things which can cause the arising of defilements. The citta which recollects the qualities of the Buddha is pure and it is inclined to practise the Dhamma as it has been taught by the Buddha. At such moments the citta is gentle, one will not hurt or harm someone else. There is mettaa and benevolence, one wishes happiness for everybody. When we are developing the inclination to mettaa and benevolence for others we should take care not to be absorbed in pleasant objects [35. We can prevent this by considering the foulness of the body, both of ourselves and of others [36. If we neglect considering this we may go the wrong way and have attachment and infatuation instead of pure loving kindness. In order to prevent the citta to pursue objects which are pleasant and lead to infatuation, we should recollect death which will come certainly. Nobody knows when death will come, whether it will come after a long time or very soon. If we always recollect death it will help us more and more not to be neglectful of kusala. The opportunity for birth as a human being is very rare and therefore we should develop every possible kind of kusala."" end of passage. I don't know wther you would call the above passge about the development of samatha 'formal meditation' but anyway it gives a succint look at what Sujin explains about samatha bhavana. There is much more in thai of course. Robert #95266 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Fri Jan 23, 2009 12:56 am Subject: Re: Sujin, what does she teach?2 was What the Buddha said... to whom? rjkjp1 --- part 2 Dear Suan, To develop samatha to the degree of jhana one must be in seclusion, away from noise, have subdued sense desire etc. For some objects one needs a sitting posture and erect back. This is all certainly known and explicated by Khun Sujin However Sujin believes that few people at this time have the ability to develop jhana, let alone to have mastery, and so she mainly speaks about samatha with the less lofty aim of developing kusala citta below the level of jhana; along the lines of this sutta: Anguttara nikaya (Book of the Elevens ii 13 p213 Mahanama) says *with regard to objects of samatha such as Buddhanusati: """you should develop it as you sit, as you stand, as you lie, as you apply yourself to business. You should make it grow as you dwell at home in your lodging crowded with children""""" " The contemplations of death, metta and several others (assuming one is not aiming for jhana), don't need seclusion or a special posture, so Sujin emphasizes that they should be developed whether one is sitting or walking or talking. So this perhaps answers to a degree your question about whether she thinks samatha is 'formal' meditation. Robert #95267 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Fri Jan 23, 2009 12:59 am Subject: Re: Sujin, what does she teach?3 was What the Buddha said... to whom? rjkjp1 part 3 Dear Suan Khun sujin is a proponent of dry insight, sukkha vipassaka, and I think helpful on explaining about seeing the present moment. She said that one can have subtle craving for kusala and that shifts one away from the present: "If one thinks that one should rather have objects other than the present one, since these appear to be more wholesome, one will never study the object which appears now. And how can one know their true nature when there is no study, no awareness of them? So it must be the present object, only what appears now. This is more difficult because it is not the object of desire. If desire can move one away to another object, that object satisfies one's desire. Desire is there all the time. If there is no understanding of lobha as lobha, how can it be eradicated? One has to understand different degrees of realities, also lobha which is more subtle, otherwise one does not know when there is lobha. Seeing things as they are. Lobha is lobha. Usually one does not see the subtle lobha which moves one away from developing right understanding of the present object." But why does Sujin emphasize dry insight rather than the path of the jhana labhi (who is skilled in both jhana and vipassana). After all the sukkavipasska is the lowest path, why not aim for the highest way? Basically it is because she believes that at this time it is the only viable way. In the nettipakarana it says The Netti-pakarana (587): QUOTE "Tattha Bhagava tikkhindriyassa samatham upadassati, majjhindriyassa Bhagava samathavipassanam upadissati, mudindriyassa Bhagava vipassanam upadassati. Herein the Blessed one teaches samatha to one of keen faculties; The blessed one teaches samatha and insight to one of medium faculties and the blessed one teaches insight [alone] to one of blunt faculties[U]. Again in the Netti (746)it says that the Buddha teaches insight [alone] to one who is guidable (neyya) and teaches in detail to neyya. At this time (acording to the texts) there are only padaparama and neyya. Padaparama cannot attain in this life, although they can in future lives.. We - so the Theravada commentaries indicate- are either padaparama or neyya and we need many details. Only the very wise ones with great accumulations could master jhana and use it as the base for insight. Nevertheless all types of kusala - of which samatha is one of the highest- should be developed as all kusala assists insight. Robert #95268 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 23, 2009 1:18 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Re: Beginner abhidhamma questions nilovg Dear Pt, Op 23-jan-2009, om 4:44 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > > The sotaapanna has eradicated wrong view, but not conceit. He may > > think 'his own' namas and rupas better than those of someone > else, or > > his understanding better than someone else's. > > 1. How is this different from sakkaya-ditthi? I mean, isn't the > sotaapanna here conceiving a self in "his own" namas and rupas? ------- N: He does not believe that there is a self that really exists, he knows that what we take for self are only nama and rupa that arise and fall away, but he may still be proud of these nama and rupa. ------- > > Pt: 2. I understand that ditthi and conceit are different > cetasikas, but > I'm having trouble understanding why they are exclusive of each other. > You said that that the cittas they arise with have different objects. > How so? I mean, to me it seems that a view is a mental object, just > like the idea of being better is also mental object. I might be > confusing something here. ------- N: I understand the difficulty, since wrong view can have many objects and also conceit can have many. The object can be a sense object or nama, or a concept. The citta that experiences that object takes it in a different way in the case of wrong view and of conceit and that is why wrong view and conceit cannot arise at the same time. Wrong view , for example, arises when it is not seen that what we call body are mere rupas that are impermanent. One believes that the body is permanent, at least for some time. Conceit can arise when we think: my beautiful body, my body is very important. --------- > > Pt: 3. I think that sometimes I take pride in my views. So in this > instance, would conceit and wrong view still have to arise with > different cittas and it only seems to me that they arise together > because my insight is weak? ----------- N: In that case another citta with conceit arising in another process can have wrong view arising with a previous citta as object. There have to be different cittas arising in different processes. I quote from my 'Buddhism in Daily Life' Ch 8, where we read about Khemaka. I find this explanation helpful: ******* Nina. #95269 From: Herman Hofman Date: Fri Jan 23, 2009 1:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma. egberdina Hi Nina, 2009/1/22 Nina van Gorkom : > Hi Herman, > Op 22-jan-2009, om 2:09 heeft Herman Hofman het volgende geschreven: > >> >> I could quote you texts ad nauseam, Nina. > ------- > N: You mentioned S V, so I looked there. Since you mentioned it, > could you point to a particular sutta? > Yes, I could. Will I point to a particular sutta? No, I won't. If you already looked in SN section 47, and have read today's posts, and still nothing rings a bell, so be it. I don't pretend to be a pedagogue,and you do not show signs of being a learner. Cheers Herman #95270 From: Herman Hofman Date: Fri Jan 23, 2009 1:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vipassanaa, Survey Ch 34, no. 12. egberdina Hi Sarah, 2009/1/22 sarahprocterabbott : > Hi Herman, > > ... > S: As Ken H put it once, whether we're talking about rocks or humans: > > "There are only dhammas, and they are disinterestedly rolling on in > accordance with conditions" > Thank you for expressing the view that dhammas disinterestedly roll along. I'm trying very hard to imagine the cetasika named interest being without interest. It's not working. Have I missed something? Cheers Herman #95271 From: Herman Hofman Date: Fri Jan 23, 2009 2:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sujin, what does she teach?2 was What the Buddha said... to whom? egberdina Hello RobertK, 2009/1/23 rjkjp1 : > --- part 2 > Dear Suan, > > To develop samatha to the degree of jhana one must be in seclusion, > away from noise, have subdued sense desire etc. For some objects one > needs a sitting posture and erect back. This is all certainly known and > explicated by Khun Sujin. It would have made the list far less busy over the last nine years had this been expressed previously. Or perhaps it was explicated during one of my absences? > > However Sujin believes that few people at this time have the ability to > develop jhana, Herman believes that Sujin is entitled to believe whatever she wants. The very fact that she believes it is an admission that she doesn't know it. I accept that she, and her followers, have not been able to develop jhana. That fact does not limit anyone else, nor the applicability of the Buddha's teachings. Cheers Herman #95272 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 23, 2009 2:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What the Buddha said... to whom? nilovg Dear Suan, Op 23-jan-2009, om 7:22 heeft abhidhammika het volgende geschreven: > "Did K Sujin equate satipa.t.thaana with informal daily life > practice while equating samatha with formal sitting meditation?" -------- N: Instead of speaking about another person, I can answer this on my own accord. I find it hard to speak about someone else who is not here on this forum and cannot give further explanations. Moreover misunderstandings can arise so easily, and I have a feeling, Suan, that misunderstandings can and should be clarified. Satipatthaana is the development of right understanding to reach the goal: the eradication of all defilements by pa~n~naa so that the end of the cycle can be reached. The Buddha spoke to monks who were skilled in jhaana and to laypeople who were not able to develop jhaana. Thus he exhorted all people to practise in their own situation. In this sutta we find references to people who were able to attain jhana, but, this was emphasized: they should also develop vipassana and be aware of jhanacittas, lest these are taken for self. The Buddha told the monks to be aware while eating, drinking, speaking, etc. and here we clearly see that satipatthaana is to be developed in daily life. As I mentioned before: under the Application of Mindfulness of citta, we find: citta rooted in lobha and also jhaanacitta. Whatever citta arises can be object of mindfulness. As to equating samatha with sitting meditation, it depends what you mean by samatha: calm arising with kusala citta or calm developed to the degree of jhana. Samatha can be taken in a larger sense: as the factor of right concentration accompanying right understanding of the eightfold Path, right understanding of a nama or rupa that appears. I know the suttas where it is said: what is right concentration: the first jhana etc. But here again, all levels of concentration are included. We can also say: samatha, calm, is being removed from akusala. For instance when thinking of someone else with genuine metta, the citta is calm, there is samatha. when stages of insight are reached, there is also calm, samatha. Most important is knowing when exactly akusala citta arises and when kusala citta. This is difficult, because lobha may be very, very subtle. -------- Nina. #95273 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 23, 2009 2:47 am Subject: Re:to Siilaananda. [dsg] help please! nilovg Dear Siilaananda, I hope you do not mind I answer your letter on dsg. Op 23-jan-2009, om 1:47 heeft sÄ«lÄnanda het volgende geschreven: > 1. Are you familiar with nimittas? > 2. If you are, are you able to guide with the purpose of using them > to attain the jhanas? --------- N: The word nimitta has several meanings. I think you mean here the mental image a person may have in the development of jhaana. I am not familiar with it, I only know about it by the study of the Visuddhimagga. The first, most important requirement for the development of samatha is knowing when the citta is kusala and when akusala. The aim of jhana is detachment from sense objects and clinging to them. Also, one shoulkd not underestimate the difficulty of the attainment of jhana. Many conditions have to be fulfilled like living secluded, in a suitable place, not being engaged in a busy worldly life. As we read in the Visuddhimagga only one in a hundred or thousand can reach access concentration or jhaana. Do you have a specific purpose as to the attainment of jhaana? For those in the Buddha's time who were skilled in jhaana there were benefits in developing both jhaana and vipassanaa and attain enlightenment with lokuttara jhaanacittas. But for us today the situation is different. Jhaana should not be seen as a shortcut to enlightenment. One may mislead oneself and take for jhaana what is not genuine jhaana. I requote some of the passages Rob K just quoted, because they explain about samatha and vipassana: Deeds of Merit (by Ms. Sujin) http://www.abhidhamma.org/meri3.html Sujin. : If someone wants to apply himself to the development of kusala citta with calm to the degree of attainment concentration, which is jhaana, he must have a detailed knowledge of samatha bhaavanaa. He must know which meditation subject he should recollect, and how he should do this with kusala citta accompanied by pa~n~naa, so that there is true calm and he can reach different levels of samaadhi, concentration. He should also know that there are different types of persons who develop kusala citta with calm and that these types of persons can, accordingly, attain different levels of calm. All this is very intricate. Do you wish to develop samatha to the degree of jhaana? W. : One needs to study this subject in great detail, and, moreover, jhaana can only temporarily subdue defilements. Therefore, I prefer to develop insight, vipassanaa. Vipassanaa can eradicate defilements completely, so that they never arise again. Sujin. : It is still necessary to discuss samatha bhaavanaa, because we should know the difference between the level of bhaavanaa which is the temporary subduing of defilements by calm and the level which is the complete eradication of defilements. W. : Even if we do not intend to develop calm to the degree of the different levels of samaadhi we can still frequently recollect in our daily life meditation subjects which condition calm and purity of citta, so that defilements are subdued and do not arise at such moments. We can make this into a habit so that it becomes our natural inclination. Can we call this the development of calm? Sujin.: Certainly. The frequent recollection of subjects which condition calm of citta is a way to prevent defilements from arising. But the degree of calm depends on awareness and understanding of the characteristic of the kusala citta with calm which is different from akusala citta. One should also know how conditions for higher degrees of calm can be developed..... Sujin.: For the development of calm there are forty meditation subjects. If these subjects are often recollected they can be the condition for the development of calm. In that way calm will become firmly established so that the level of samaadhi will be reached. These forty subjects are called samatha kamma~n~nhaana, exercises of meditation in samatha. --------- Some words of Ms. Sujin: "If one thinks that one should rather have objects other than the present one, since these appear to be more wholesome, one will never study the object which appears now. And how can one know their true nature when there is no study, no awareness of them? So it must be the present object, only what appears now. This is more difficult because it is not the object of desire. If desire can move one away to another object, that object satisfies one's desire. Desire is there all the time. If there is no understanding of lobha as lobha, how can it be eradicated? One has to understand different degrees of realities, also lobha which is more subtle, otherwise one does not know when there is lobha. Seeing things as they are. Lobha is lobha. Usually one does not see the subtle lobha which moves one away from developing right understanding of the present object." --------------- Nina. #95274 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 23, 2009 2:55 am Subject: [dsg] Survey, Ch 35, no 9. nilovg Dear friends, We read in the “Gradual Sayings”(III, Book of the Fives, Ch XIX, §1, Forest-gone) that the Buddha said to the monks: Monks, these five are forest-gone. What five? One is forest-gone out of folly and blindness; one out of evil desires and longings; one foolish and mind-tossed; one at the thought: ”It is praised by Buddhas and their disciples”; and one is forest-gone just because his wants are little, just for contenment, just to mark (his own faults), just for seclusion, just because it is the very thing. Verily, monks, of these five who have gone to the forest, he who has gone just because his wants are little, for contentment, to mark (his own faults), for seclusion, just because it is the very thing-- he of the five is topmost, best, foremost, highest, elect. Monks, just as from the cow comes milk, from milk cream, from cream butter, from butter ghee, from ghee the skim of ghee which is reckoned topmost; even so, monks, of these five forest-gone, he who has gone just because his wants are little, for contentment, to mark (his own faults), for seclusion, and just because it is the very thing-- he of the five is topmost, best, foremost, highest, elect. Why were some monks dwelling in the forest out of folly and blindness? Some people think that once they are in the forest they will be able to realize the four noble Truths. Are those who think thus not forest dwellers out of folly and blindness? If a person has right understanding of cause and effect, he will see that no way of life was more excellent than the life of the monk who had left the householder’s life in order to go to the place where the Buddha dwelt. This is altogether different from someone’s life in a meditation center where he goes just for a short period, out of desire to attain enlightenment. Some people believe that staying in a center for the practice of vipassanå, although it is not in conformity with their nature, will be the condition to realize the noble Truths. If that were true then laypeople who practise vipassanå in a meditation center should deserve more praise than the monks in the Buddha’s time who were leading their ordinary daily life in accordance with the rules of the Vinaya, such as going on their alms rounds, listening to the Dhamma and discussing it, and performing the different duties of the Sangha. ******** Nina. #95275 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Fri Jan 23, 2009 3:18 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sujin, what does she teach?2 was What the Buddha said... to whom? rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Herman Hofman wrote: > >> > To develop samatha to the degree of jhana one must be in seclusion, > > away from noise, have subdued sense desire etc. For some objects one > > needs a sitting posture and erect back. This is all certainly known and > > explicated by Khun Sujin. > > It would have made the list far less busy over the last nine years had > this been expressed previously. Or perhaps it was explicated during > one of my absences? +++++++++ Dear Herman It has been stated many times I think. eg in 2001 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/5540 """"What seems to be the most common object peolple choose these days is anapanasati, the most difficult of all objects, according to the texts. This object does need special conditions - erect back, fixed posture, quiet, much application etc.; """" Robert #95276 From: Herman Hofman Date: Fri Jan 23, 2009 3:58 am Subject: Question re study egberdina Hi all, Is the following in the Vis, and if so, is it an acceptable translation? Ten impediments to meditation (palibodha) a dwelling, family and gain, a class, and building too, as fifth, and travel, kin, affliction, books, and supernormal powers: ten. Thanks in advance Herman #95277 From: "Scott" Date: Fri Jan 23, 2009 4:35 am Subject: Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner scottduncan2 Dear All, Continuing: The Path of Purification. "30. 'And it is perhaps not so wonderful that one who had become a human being should have acted in that way; but also as an animal he do so. For while the Bodhisatta was the elephant called Chaddanta he was pierced in the navel by a poisoned shaft. But even then he allowed no hate towards the hunter who had wounded him to corrupt his mind, according as it is said: 'The elephant, when struck by the stout shaft, Addressed the hunter with no hate in mind: 'What is your aim? What is the reason why You kill me thus? What can your purpose be?' (Jaa.v,51). 'And when the elephant had spoken thus and was told, 'Sir, I have been sent by the king of Kaasi's queen to get your tusks', in order to fulfil her wish he cut off his own tusks whose gorgeous radiance glittered with the flashes of the six-coloured rays and gave them to him.'" Path of Purity. "This, however, is not yet wonderful, that a human should have acted so. For even a lower animal, an elephant called Chaddanta, though pierced in the navel with a poisoned arrow, was not, in the face of such pain, offended with the hunter. As it was said: - "The beast with mighty shaft laid low, Unruffled still, addressed his foe: 'What object, friend, in slaying me, And pray, who instigated thee?'" (Jaataka v, 36; tr. v, 28) And when it was replied: 'Sir, the chief queen of the king of Kaasi has sent me to get thy tusks,' the elephant by way of fulfilling her wishes, cut off his beautiful and lovely tusks which were resplendent with the six kinds of rays." Ida~ncaapi anacchariyameva, ya.m manussabhuuto evamakaasi. Tiracchaanabhuutopi pana chaddanto naama vaara.no hutvaa visappitena sallena naabhiya.m viddhopi taava anatthakaarimhi luddake citta.m nappaduusesi. Yathaaha - 'Samappito puthusallena naago, Adu.t.thacitto luddaka.m ajjhabhaasi; Kimatthaya.m kissa vaa samma hetu, Mama.m vadhii kassa vaaya.m payogo 'ti. (jaa. 1.16.124); Eva.m vatvaa ca kaasira~n~no mahesiyaa tava dantaanamatthaaya pesitomhi bhadanteti vutte tassaa manoratha.m puurento chabba.n.narasminicchara.nasamujjalitacaarusobhe attano dante chetvaa adaasi. Sincerely, Scott. #95278 From: "connie" Date: Fri Jan 23, 2009 6:50 am Subject: AS time nichiconn Dear Friends, The final words from Nyanaponika: According to these instructive explanations, those things providing the fertile soil for defilements are, as it were, attuned to the respective defilements; they engage each other like cogwheels; or their relation is like that of bodily susceptibility and a virus. Only in the light of a dynamic view of actuality that admits the factor of potentiality, and by a dynamic conception of time that admits partial interpenetration of the three time periods, will the importance and the implications of these Abhidhammic terms be fully understood. In calling attention to these neglected but important terms and by pointing out some of their implications, our intention was to appeal for further textual and philosophical investigations in this field. peace, connie #95279 From: "connie" Date: Fri Jan 23, 2009 6:51 am Subject: cornerstone nichiconn Dear Friends, Karunadasa continues: Nama-pannatti is often defined as that which makes known (pannapanato pannatti) and attha-pannatti as that which is made known (pannapiyatta pannatti).131 The former is an instance of agency definition (kattu-sadhana) and the latter of object definition (kamma-sadhana). What both attempt to show is that nama-pannatti which makes attha-pannatti known, and attha-pannatti which is made known by nama-pannatti, are mutually inter-dependent and therefore logically inseparable. This explains the significance of another definition which states that nama-pannatti is the term's relationship with the ideas (saddassa atthehi sambandho) and that attha-pannatti is the idea's relationship with the terms (atthassa saddehi sambandho).132 These two pairs of definition show that the two processes of conceptualization and verbalization through the symbolic medium of language are but two separate aspects of the same phenomenon. It is for the convenience of definition that what really amounts to a single phenomenon is treated from two different angles, which represent two ways of looking at the same thing. notes: 131. ADS 39; ADSVM 151; SS vv.37ff.; PV v.1066. 132. ADSSV 53. ...to be continued, connie #95280 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 23, 2009 6:54 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sangiiti Sutta Threes (44-45) and Commentary, part 2. nilovg Dear friends, As we have seen, there are three weapons: the weapon of knowledge based on hearing the Tipi.taka, the weapon of detachment, the weapon of wisdom. The second weapon is seclusion (in the sutta translated as detachment), pavivekha. The co states that there are three kinds of seclusion: of body, of citta and of the substratum of rebirth (upadhi). As to bodily seclusion, he lives withdrawn, enjoying renunciation. The subco: as to enjoying renunciation, he has endeavour to develop the first jhaana and so on. Co: As to seclusion of citta, this is the citta that has attained superior purity. subco: since the association with defilements has been abandoned, there is seclusion of citta. It has been said that the citta has attained superior purity with reference to the freedom of jhaana. As to seclusion of substratum, upadhi viveka, this is the attainment of the unconditioned, as the co explains. The subco adds: this is nibbaana. N: This is the end of clinging, including clinging to rebirth. The subco states that this refers to someone who has reached the unconditioned, and is endowed with fruition attainment. The Co adds that when someone enjoys these three kinds of seclusion there is nowhere any danger for him. Therefore if one relies on these qualities they are in this sense a weapon. As to the third weapon, this is p~n~naa. The Co adds: lokiya and lokuttara pa~n~naa. For whom there is this (pa~n~naa) there is nowhere any danger. Thus this is also a weapon in the sense of support. The subco: also what is heard (the Tipi.taka) is a weapon in the sense of support. The subco also states that what is heard is seclusion from sense pleasures (kaama): because of understanding (based on hearing) it is a weapon that accomplishes this. But pa~n~naa is taken separately as a weapon, in the sense that it is capable to see (dassana). Therefore it is said that when there is pa~n~naa there is nowhere any danger. ------- N: Pa~n~naa is a weapon one can rely on, a protection amidst the danger of akusala. Pa~n~naa is capable to ‘see’, it sees realities as they are. It sees all realities, it can also see akusala as it is: anattaa. When pa~n~naa arises one will not be overwhelmed by akusala, we have a weapon to rely on and to protect us and we have nothing to fear. Moreover, when pa~n~naa is developed to the degree of lokuttara pa~n~naa one will, at the attainment of arahatship, be liberated from the danger of the cycle. ******* Co: Sutaavudhanti sutameva aavudha.m. Ta.m atthato tepi.taka.m buddhavacana.m. Ta~nhi nissaaya bhikkhu pa~n~naavudha.m nissaaya suuro yodho avikampamaano mahaakantaara.m viya sa.msaarakantaara.m atikkamati aviha~n~namaano.... ********* Nina. #95281 From: "Scott" Date: Fri Jan 23, 2009 6:55 am Subject: Re: Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner scottduncan2 Dear Rob E., Regarding: Me: "How can an act conditioned by a belief that by will one can create proper conditions that will lead to anything wholesome?" R: "Do you think this also applies to the practice of generating metta in relation to 'living beings' who are also just a concept?" Scott: Yes, I do. I'd replace the confusing phrase 'practise of generating mettaa' with 'the development of mettaa', and then I would not misunderstand 'development' to mean something someone does, rather, I would understand 'development' to apply only to the dhamma 'mettaa' and the manner in which, with frequent arising, mettaa becomes strengthened according to appropriate conditions. It is not a problem that 'living beings' are concept. We know that a proper consideration of this concept is said to be one of the conditions necessary for the arising of mettaa; this - the concept 'living being' - is no different from the kasi.na in this regard. It is just an object which conditions the development of some dhamma or another - concentration, mettaa, or what have you. No, the problem lies in the belief that one simply needs to decide one moment to generate mettaa and that this will make mettaa arise. 'Practise' as it has come to be known in popular 'buddhism', does not exist. Simply thinking, 'This I will do' is not sufficient condition for that thing to be done. Other conditions must also be in place. These are not subject to control. One wouldn't think, for example, that by willing, one could cause the Path to arise. Since the dhammas which constitute the Path are subject to the same laws of conditionality as would be mettaa, one needn't then think that, by act of will, anyone can cause mettaa to arise. Mettaa, like the other dhammaa which, with development, constitute the arising of the Path, requires development. And this development can come about due only to certain conditions and not others. Consider Sa.myutta Nikaaya, 12. Saccasa.myutta.m, 1. Samaadhivaggo, 10. Tathasutta.m: 'Cattaarimaani, bhikkhave, tathaani avitathaani ana~n~nathaani. Katamaani cattaari? 'Ida.m dukkha 'nti, bhikkhave, tathameta.m avitathameta.m ana~n~nathameta.m ; 'aya.m dukkhasamudayo 'ti tathameta.m avitathameta.m ana~n~nathameta.m; 'aya.m dukkhanirodho 'ti tathameta.m avitathameta.m ana~n~nathameta.m; 'aya.m dukkhanirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa 'ti tathameta.m avitathameta.m ana~n~nathameta.m â€" imaani kho, bhikkhave, cattaari tathaani avitathaani ana~n~nathaani. "Tasmaatiha, bhikkhave, 'ida.m dukkha 'nti yogo kara.niiyo ... 'aya.m dukkhanirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa 'ti yogo kara.niiyo ''ti. Dasama.m. "Bhikkhus, these four things are actual (tathaani), unerring (avitathaani), not otherwise (ana~n~nathaani). What four? 'This is suffering'; this, bhikkhus, is actual, unerring, not otherwise. 'This is the origin of suffering'; this is actual, unerring, not otherwise. 'This is the cessation of suffering'; this is actual, unerring, not otherwise. 'This is the way leading to the cessation of suffering'; this is actual, unerring, not otherwise. These four things are actual, unerring, not otherwise. Therefore, bhikkhu, an exertion should be made to understand: 'This is suffering.' ... An exertion should be made to understand: 'This is the way leading to the cessation of suffering." Scott: From the Commentary (regarding 'thataani avitathaani ana~n~nathaani: "Spk: Actual in the sense of not departing from the real nature of things; for suffering is stated to be just suffering. Unerring, because of nonfalsification of its real nature; for suffering does not become nonsuffering. Not otherwise, because of not arriving at a different nature; for suffering does not arrive at the nature of the origin [of suffering], etc. The same method for the other truths." Scott: And: "Spk: Actuality (thataata) is said to indicate the occurrence of each particular phenomenon when its assemblage of appropriate conditions is present. Inerrancy (avitathataa) means that once its conditions have reached completeness there is no nonoccurrence, even for a moment, of the phenomenon due to be produced from these conditions. Not otherwiseness (ana~n~nathataa) means that there is no production of one phenomenon by another's conditions..." Scott: I'd suggest that, without Right View, that is pa~n~naa, and without an awareness, that is sati - without knowing mettaa when mettaa arises, or knowing when it is not mettaa, the development of mettaa is hampered, if not at standstill. R: "...Isn't that self-delusion as well?" Scott: If it is known that beings are concepts, and if it is known that it *is in fact* mettaa (and not another dhamma) when mettaa arises in relation to a consideration of this concept, then this is not 'self-delusion'. Sincerely, Scott. #95282 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jan 23, 2009 3:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What the Buddha said... to whom? upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and Suan & Alberto) - In a message dated 1/22/2009 10:47:34 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi Suan, Alberto and all, Look's like it's time to stand up and be counted. :-) So I will go on record as saying there are no formal practices of *any* kind. Let alone samatha and vipassana, even shelling peas (to take the first example to come into my head) is beyond ultimate control. The peas, the shells, the person doing the shelling, and the process of shelling are all non-existent in ultimate reality (where there are only namas and rupas). Ken H ============================= The allegedly non-existent "formal practices" you speak of consist the namas and rupas so beloved by you and referred to as "ultimate realities" but that also lack independent existence as entities. Your talk of these practices as not existing is much akin to a chemist saying that there is no water at all - pure fiction, but only hydrogen and oxygen atoms, as if such a demented chemist drank hydrogen and oxygen, and as if those atoms weren't also compositions. In any case, how is all your intellectual theorizing, all conceptualization of course, specifically your reductionist theorizing, serving you as a practical matter in terms of bhavana? Can you say how it has changed your life? With metta, Howard (From the Avarana Sutta) #95283 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jan 23, 2009 3:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. upasaka_howard Hi, Robert - In a message dated 1/23/2009 12:38:47 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, epsteinrob@... writes: Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: Yes, we > ordinarily distinguish these various sorts of phenomena to the extent of then being > able to basically recognize them. However, I believe there is bound to be some > degree of conflating them unless there has been considerable mind development > and at a given time of observing attention is extremely precise. Yeah, I figure I'm about at the "tiny hammer hitting a giant nail" stage or something like that.... ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Ahh, good! Making progress, then!! :-) --------------------------------------------- Robert ========================= With metta, Howard (Anonymous) #95284 From: "connie" Date: Fri Jan 23, 2009 8:10 am Subject: re: Question re study nichiconn Dear Herman, H: Is the following in the Vis, and if so, is it an acceptable translation? Ten impediments to meditation (palibodha) a dwelling, family and gain, a class, and building too, as fifth, and travel, kin, affliction, books, and supernormal powers: ten. c: yes and no... that is the verse in Nanamoli's translation, ch.iii 29, naming 'obstructions' to (not "meditation" but) the development of concentration. Then comes a discussion on what each is and how, to some, they are 'hindrances'. Nanamoli and PM Tin both use 'impediment' for palibodha. PM Tin: Abode and family, the gains, the crowd and work the fifth, Wayfaring, kin, illhealth, the book and psychic power - these ten. This is another topic you could find in the backlog if you wanted. Anyway, just to give an idea of where the book goes from here, Nanamoli's ch.iii begins: 1. [84] Now concentration is described under the heading of 'consciousness' in the phrase 'develops consciousness and understanding' (Ch.I,§l). It should be developed by one who has taken his stand on virtue that has been purified by means of the special qualities of fewness of wishes, etc., and perfected by observance of the ascetic practices. But that concentration has been shown only very briefly and so it is not even easy to understand, much less to develop. There is therefore the following set of questions, the purpose of which is to show the method of its development in detail: (i) What is concentration? (ii) In what sense is it concentration? (iii) What are its characteristic, function, manifestation, and proximate cause? (iv) How many kinds of concentration are there? (v) What is its defilement? (vi) What is its cleansing? (vii) How should it be developed? (viii) What are the benefits of the development of concentration? {1} {1}. The answer to question (vii) stretches from Ch.III,§27 to Ch.XI,§119. That to question (viii) from Ch.XI,§I20 up to the end of Ch.XIII. peace, connie #95285 From: "connie" Date: Fri Jan 23, 2009 8:17 am Subject: Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. nichiconn Sorry, Howard, can't resist any more - it sounds like you actually Do believe Pali as a sacred language would be the way to go: > IMO, it's not that simple. As you know, I believe that the speech we use affects our mind, belief, inclinations, and actions. Speech is a force, and our language usage needs to be carefully guarded as to its effect. peace, connie #95286 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 23, 2009 8:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: anapana. The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. nilovg Hi Howard and Rob Ep, this tetrad deals with insight as is said in the Visuddhimagga. Op 23-jan-2009, om 6:43 heeft Robert Epstein het volgende geschreven: > He who sees with discernment the > abandoning of > > greed & distress is one who watches carefully with equanimity, > which is why the > > monk on that occasion remains focused on mental qualities in & of > themselves â€" > > ardent, alert, & mindful â€" putting aside greed & distress with > reference to > > the world. > > -------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > The foregoing involves focusing on dispassion and watching > carefully with > > equanimity, which may pertain to the 4th jhana. ------- N: I quote from the Co to this sutta: The fourth tetrad pertains to the contemplation of dhammas (mental objects) in dhammas. We read in the Commentary to the Anapanasati Sutta (translated by Ven. Nyanatiloka) about the explanations of the words of the sutta: : here covetousness is the hindrance of lust. By grief the hindrance of ill will is pointed out. For this tetrad is stated by way of insight. And contemplation of mental objects is sixfold... Of that contemplation, the section on the hindrances is the beginning... Accordingly, he said, in order to point out the beginning of the contemplation of mental objects. (pahaana.m) means it is the knowledge of abandoning, thus, that is intended... N: The Co refers to higher stages of insight knowledge leading to more detachment from conditioned realities: fading away (viraaga~naa.na), cessation (nirodha ~naa.na), and relinquishment (pa.tinissagga). We read further on: : because one who proceeds by the method, etc., is one who looks on with complete equanimity after successively seeing with understanding not only the mental objects beginning with the hindrances, but also the knowledge of the abandoning of the mental objects stated under the heading of covetousness and grief. Therefore, it should be understood that Nina: In the Way of Mindfulness, Co translated by Ven. Soma, it is stated that just as in the case of body, feeling and citta, the mental objects should be contemplated in seven ways: as impermanent; as being subject to dukkha; as anatta; by way of turning away from it and not by way of delighting in it; by freeing himself of passion for it; with thoughts making for cessation and not making for origination; and not by way of laying hold of it, by by way of giving it up. As we have seen, the hindrances are classified under the mental objects, and they include also the khandhas, the sense-bases (ayatanas), the seven factors of enlightenment and the four Truths. -------- Nina. #95287 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jan 23, 2009 3:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 1/23/2009 3:36:45 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, jonabbott@... writes: Hi Howard > That is my point. There is an objection on "philosophical" grounds, > but that requires a certain mindset to be of any significance. For a > person not versed in "philosophical" discussion, no such objection > arises. > ----------------------------------------------- > Howard: > IMO, it's not that simple. As you know, I believe that the speech we use > affects our mind, belief, inclinations, and actions. Speech is a force, and > our language usage needs to be carefully guarded as to its effect. > --------------------------------------------- Yes, we've discussed this belief on a previous occasion. As I said then, the proposition that a person's thoughts are affected by what he or she says when speaking to others is not one that's supported by the texts. To my understanding, the position is rather that a what a person says would be a reflection of what he or she thinks (this seemed to be borne out by the suttas you quoted). Jon ========================= It sounds to me that you believe that nothing should be believed unless it explicitly appears "in the texts." That strikes me as quite similar to the perspective adopted by a devout Muslim with respect to the Koran or an ultra-orthodox Jew with respect to the Torah (or rabbinical commentaries). As I see it, though, that approach goes contrary to the Buddha's warnings in the Kalama Sutta, and I reject it. With metta, Howard (Anonymous) #95288 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jan 23, 2009 3:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. upasaka_howard Hi, Connie - In a message dated 1/23/2009 11:18:18 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, nichicon@... writes: Sorry, Howard, can't resist any more - it sounds like you actually Do believe Pali as a sacred language would be the way to go: ---------------------------------------- Howard: Er, no. What I speak of is formulation, choice of expressions, and connotation - in any language. For me, language is a body of conventions, and there are no sacred languages. (For the Buddha too!) ---------------------------------------- > IMO, it's not that simple. As you know, I believe that the speech we use affects our mind, belief, inclinations, and actions. Speech is a force, and our language usage needs to be carefully guarded as to its effect. peace, connie ========================== With metta, Howard (Anonymous) #95289 From: "sprlrt" Date: Fri Jan 23, 2009 9:12 am Subject: Re: What the Buddha said... to whom? sprlrt Dear Suan, Al S: "K. Sujin often asks this question when asked about quotes from Suttas which seem to contradict her understanding on basic aspects of the Dhamma, including formal, sitting meditation (samatha) and informal, daily life practice (satipatthana)." ... S: Alberto, in your second last post, you wrote: "My view that satipatthana applies to every day informal, normal life comes from studying & considering what's in tipitaka." S: You will notice that your above view is much weaker than and substantially different from the assertion in your original statement where satipa.t.thaana was equated to informal daily life practice. ... A: I'm not sure what you're charging me with, that K. Sujin didn't say what I said she did, or that I didn't study & considered what's in tipitaka, or both, I'd appreciate if you'd make your point in a less cumbersome, possibly straightforward, fashion, thanks. Alberto Spera #95290 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 23, 2009 10:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Jhaana. Abhidhamma. nilovg Hi Herman, Op 23-jan-2009, om 10:36 heeft Herman Hofman het volgende geschreven: > Will I point to a particular sutta? No, I won't. If you > already looked in SN section 47, and have read today's posts, and > still nothing rings a bell, so be it. I don't pretend to be a > pedagogue,and you do not show signs of being a learner. ------- N: That is O.K. with me. I have never seen in the texts that the development of jhaana is necessary for enlightenment. There is no rule. For those who have not developed samatha the lokuttara citta is accompanied by right concentration which has the strength of the first jhaana, by conditions. Nina. #95291 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 23, 2009 10:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Question re study nilovg Hi Herman, Op 23-jan-2009, om 12:58 heeft Herman Hofman het volgende geschreven: > Is the following in the Vis, and if so, is it an acceptable > translation? > > Ten impediments to meditation (palibodha) > > a dwelling, family and gain, > a class, and building too, as fifth, > and travel, kin, affliction, books, > and supernormal powers: ten. ------ N: This is fully explained in the Vis in the chapter on concentration: from Ch III, 29. They are impediments to samatha, not to vipassana, except the tenth which is an impediment to vipassana, not to samatha (III, 56). We can see how many conditions have to be fulfilled for the development of samatha. Nina. #95292 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jan 23, 2009 6:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Jhaana. Abhidhamma. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Herman) - In a message dated 1/23/2009 1:49:07 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Herman, Op 23-jan-2009, om 10:36 heeft Herman Hofman het volgende geschreven: > Will I point to a particular sutta? No, I won't. If you > already looked in SN section 47, and have read today's posts, and > still nothing rings a bell, so be it. I don't pretend to be a > pedagogue,and you do not show signs of being a learner. ------- N: That is O.K. with me. I have never seen in the texts that the development of jhaana is necessary for enlightenment. There is no rule. ------------------------------------------------- Howard: From the Dhammapada there is the following: 372 There's no jhana for one with no discernment, no discernment for one with no jhana. But one with both jhana & discernment: he's on the verge of Unbinding. and in MN 36, we find the following said by the Buddha: I thought: 'I recall once, when my father the Sakyan was working, and I was sitting in the cool shade of a rose-apple tree, then quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful mental qualities I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. Could that be the path to Awakening?' Then following on that memory came the realization: 'That is the path to Awakening.' Are the Dhammapada and the Majhimma Nikaya not texts, Nina? ============================ With metta, Howard (From the Avarana Sutta) #95293 From: "Scott" Date: Fri Jan 23, 2009 11:24 am Subject: Re: Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner scottduncan2 Dear Rob E., Part II, I guess, the other was getting too long, sorry. Regarding: "Tasmaatiha, bhikkhave, 'ida.m dukkha 'nti yogo kara.niiyo ... 'aya.m dukkhanirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa 'ti yogo kara.niiyo ''ti. Dasama.m. "Therefore, bhikkhu, an exertion should be made to understand: 'This is suffering.' ... An exertion should be made to understand: 'This is the way leading to the cessation of suffering." Scott: 'An exertion should be made to understand' is the phrase. An 'imperative' as you would suggest, given the wording. Please consider 'kara.niiyo', from the PTS PED: "Karoti v. irreg...form, to build (or plait, weave? see kamma)...3. Grd. kara.niiya..." "Kara.niiya [grd. of karoti] 1. adj. (a) that ought to be, must or should be done, to be done, to be made...(b) done, in the sense of undoing, i. e. overcome, undone...2. (m.) one who has still something left to perform (for the attainment of Arahantship, a sekha...3. (nt.) (a) what ought to be done, duty, obligation; affairs, business ..." "Kara.na 1. adj...doing, making, causing, producing; 2. (nt.)... the making, producing of; the doing, performance of (=kamma)...3. (abs.) (a) the doing up, preparing...(b) the doing, performance of,...4. ( -- Ëš) state, condition;..." Scott: So 'kara.niiya' is the gerund of karoti. A gerund is noun form of a verb. So in this case, one is referring to 'the exerting' - an impersonal and functional description of a particular characteristic - I would suggest, not to an imperative to 'exert.' I don't know at all for sure, but the cetasika viriya comes to mind in this regard. An 'exerting' becomes condition for 'understanding' vis-a-vis the characteristic of dukkha, or those of the dhammas that contsitute to the Noble Eightfold Path. Sincerely, Scott. #95294 From: "connie" Date: Fri Jan 23, 2009 1:38 pm Subject: Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. nichiconn Hi again, Howard, H: ... For me, language is a body of conventions, and there are no sacred languages. (For the Buddha too!) ------------------- c: feeling a bit lazy today or i'd look something up, but actually, i think the words i wanted are more like "natural" or "individual essence" language rather than 'sacred'; and the important thing is the patisambhidas / discriminative knowledges - what & how we truly understand of the ideas in whatever language[s]. I guess if there was a 'sacred' it would be those understandings. peace, connie #95295 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Fri Jan 23, 2009 6:54 pm Subject: Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. epsteinrob Hi Alberto. > > Sati is different from samadhi (very different), and anapana sati is > obviously about sati, not samadhi. The suttas don't mention any > specific area of the body on which to focus one's attention, on which > to concentrate (samadhi), simply because it's about sati, not samadhi, > two unsubtly different dhammas, and when one does just what is not in > anapanasati sutta at all, i.e. focus/concentrate on a specific part of > the body, can't, imo, claim that he/she is following anapana sati (the > Buddha's) "instructions". I thank you for your explanation. However, it doesn't make sense to me that sati would *exclude* specific attention to a specific object. Is not "mindfulness" applied to whatever dhamma is being perceived at a given moment? There is some attention or concentration contained in sati in order to discern the nature of the dhamma. I think this is part of the problem of dividing everything into completely polarized categories. Sati can have no concentration - then how does it attend anything? Samadhi on the other hand is not just ordinary concentration or the amount necessary to discern the characteristic of something - as sati attends the nature of the long or short breath for instance - but is a deep continued concentration without a break - that is its characteristic. It is different in degree and continuity of focus, but sati is developed in relation to specific objects as well, such as those within the four foundations, so I don't see the sutta as being about samadhi just for mentioning specific characteristics to note. Best, Robert E. ============== #95296 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Fri Jan 23, 2009 7:44 pm Subject: Re: Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner epsteinrob Hi Scott. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott" wrote: ... An exertion > should be made to understand: 'This is the way leading to the > cessation of suffering." What's up with "an exertion should be made?" Bad translation again? > Scott: From the Commentary (regarding 'thataani avitathaani > ana~n~nathaani: > > "Spk: Actual in the sense of not departing from the real nature of > things; for suffering is stated to be just suffering. Unerring, > because of nonfalsification of its real nature; for suffering does not > become nonsuffering. Not otherwise, because of not arriving at a > different nature; for suffering does not arrive at the nature of the > origin [of suffering], etc. The same method for the other truths." Notice that they do not explain "An exertion should be made..." How do you interpret that? It sounds like the person is being told to make an effort to affect thus-and-such. Your points about metta are taken, and make sense. Robert E. ========================= #95297 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Fri Jan 23, 2009 7:46 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. epsteinrob Hi Howard! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > Yes, we > > ordinarily distinguish these various sorts of phenomena to the > extent of then being > > able to basically recognize them. However, I believe there is bound > to be some > > degree of conflating them unless there has been considerable mind > development > > and at a given time of observing attention is extremely precise. > > Yeah, I figure I'm about at the "tiny hammer hitting a giant nail" > stage or something like that.... > ---------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Ahh, good! Making progress, then!! :-) > --------------------------------------------- Yes, in the humility department too! :-))) Robert ===================== #95298 From: "Scott" Date: Fri Jan 23, 2009 8:20 pm Subject: Re: Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner scottduncan2 Dear Rob E., Regarding: R: "What's up with 'an exertion should be made?' Bad translation again?" Scott: Please see 'Part II': http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/95293 Sincerely, Scott. #95299 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Fri Jan 23, 2009 9:14 pm Subject: Re: anapana. The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. epsteinrob Thank you, Nina, for this worthwhile material. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Nina: In the Way of Mindfulness, Co translated by Ven. Soma, it is > stated that just as in the case of body, feeling and citta, the > mental objects should be contemplated in seven ways: as impermanent; > as being subject to dukkha; as anatta; by way of turning away from > it and not by way of delighting in it; by freeing himself of passion > for it; with thoughts making for cessation and not making for > origination; and not by way of laying hold of it, by by way of giving > it up. I have a question about how one contemplates these qualities of nama and rupa of "impermanence, anatta," etc., "turning away from it," "thoughts making for cessation," as to whether these contemplations and thoughts are concepts or direct seeing of these qualities of the object. Would the ability for the citta to pick up the impermanance and undesirability of the body, for instance, be a citta picking up "hardness," or "smoothness," or some other quality of the body, accompanied by cetasikas that understand that they are impermanent, unsatisfying, non-self, etc.? Or would there be a set of concepts and thoughts contemplating the nature of the nama or rupa? Or would it be the concept of "self" or "body" or "thoughts cherishing self," that would be contemplated as "undesireable," "impermanent," etc. and seen not to constitute a self? Best, Robert E. ================================= #95300 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Fri Jan 23, 2009 9:18 pm Subject: Re: Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner epsteinrob Hi Scott. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott" wrote: A gerund is noun form > of a verb. So in this case, one is referring to 'the exerting' - an > impersonal and functional description of a particular characteristic - > I would suggest, not to an imperative to 'exert.' I don't know at all > for sure, but the cetasika viriya comes to mind in this regard. An > 'exerting' becomes condition for 'understanding' vis-a-vis the > characteristic of dukkha, or those of the dhammas that contsitute to > the Noble Eightfold Path. So I guess if you take the verb form in that way, you would say that the exerting takes place but arises of its own accord due to the conditions influencing it, rather than a process of personal exertion, and I can see what you are getting at there. And the writer would be saying something like, "this is the exertion that should arise and should take place, and when it does, this will happen," rather than "you should do x to cause y to happen." Best, Robert E. ============================ #95301 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Fri Jan 23, 2009 9:19 pm Subject: Re: Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner epsteinrob Hi Scott. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott" wrote: > > Dear Rob E., > > Regarding: > > R: "What's up with 'an exertion should be made?' Bad translation again?" > > Scott: Please see 'Part II': > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/95293 > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > Thanks, got it! Best, Robert E. ===================== #95302 From: sachin bahade Date: Fri Jan 23, 2009 11:10 pm Subject: Re: anapana. The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. sach_bahade how i know, the anapaan i am doing is perfect #95303 From: "sprlrt" Date: Fri Jan 23, 2009 11:40 pm Subject: Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. sprlrt Hi Robert E., > > I thank you for your explanation. However, it doesn't make sense to me > that sati would *exclude* specific attention to a specific object. Is > not "mindfulness" applied to whatever dhamma is being perceived at a > given moment? There is some attention or concentration contained in > sati in order to discern the nature of the dhamma. > To discern the true nature of the dhammas, sati isn't enough, it requires the support of panna as welll, as satisampajanna There are 8 kusala citta, all with sati, all with ekaggata (samadhi), four only with panna, in which case satipatthana/vipassana, insight into the dhammas, can be developed (bhavana), the other four without panna, in which case only samatha, samma samadhi, calmness, can be developed. I think this is > part of the problem of dividing everything into completely polarized > categories. Sati can have no concentration - then how does it attend > anything? Samadhi on the other hand is not just ordinary > concentration or the amount necessary to discern the characteristic of > something - as sati attends the nature of the long or short breath for > instance - but is a deep continued concentration without a break - > that is its characteristic. It is different in degree and continuity > of focus, but sati is developed in relation to specific objects as > well, such as those within the four foundations, so I don't see the > sutta as being about samadhi just for mentioning specific > characteristics to note. > Unfortunately what arises most often in us puthujjana puggalas/ordinary wordlings (clearly not the recipients of the anapanasati discourse), because of kilesa, are the 12 akusala citta, none with sati, none with panna, all with ekaggata cetasika (samadhi), in which case neither vipassana nor samatha can be developed, just plain old miccha samadhi, i.e. focussing one's attention on something. Alberto #95304 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Jan 24, 2009 12:20 am Subject: Re: What the Buddha said... to whom? jonoabb Hi Suan > "Did K Sujin equate satipa.t.thaana with informal daily life > practice while equating samatha with formal sitting meditation?" > > Any so-called KS folk can answer the above question, and, again, a > simple Yes or No would suffice. I suppose I am among the so-called "KS folk", so let me give my answer to your question: No. Jon #95305 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Jan 24, 2009 12:40 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. jonoabb Hi Howard > Yes, we've discussed this belief on a previous occasion. As I said > then, the proposition that a person's thoughts are affected by what > he or she says when speaking to others is not one that's supported by > the texts. To my understanding, the position is rather that a what a > person says would be a reflection of what he or she thinks (this > seemed to be borne out by the suttas you quoted). > > Jon > > ========================= > It sounds to me that you believe that nothing should be believed unless > it explicitly appears "in the texts." Not at all. What I said was, not *supported by* the texts. > That strikes me as quite similar to the > perspective adopted by a devout Muslim with respect to the Koran or an > ultra-orthodox Jew with respect to the Torah (or rabbinical commentaries). As I > see it, though, that approach goes contrary to the Buddha's warnings in the > Kalama Sutta, and I reject it. To my understanding, the gist of the Kalama Sutta is that statements are to be judged against the teachings as given by the Buddha. The idea that words spoken affect the mind of the speaker (rather than a person's speech reflecting the person's mental state and level of understanding), is not something I can relate to as falling under any part of the teachings with which I'm familiar. Jon #95306 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sat Jan 24, 2009 12:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner egberdina Hi Scott, 2009/1/24 Scott : > Dear Rob E., > > > Simply thinking, 'This I will do' is not sufficient condition for that > thing to be done. Agreed. It is worth considering whether things get done without a will to do so. That translates into asking whether will is a necessary condition for things to be done. Other conditions must also be in place. These are > not subject to control. It depends on what it is that is being willed. > One wouldn't think, for example, that by > willing, one could cause the Path to arise. Clearly so if whatever Path one has imagined and made subject to the will has not delivered on the promise to be the end to suffering. > Since the dhammas which > constitute the Path are subject to the same laws of conditionality as > would be mettaa, one needn't then think that, by act of will, anyone > can cause mettaa to arise. Anyone who doesn't know how/when metta arises and ceases, is only daydreaming metta. There is a chance, though, that they will hit the bullseye, just like a turtle has a chance of bobbing up in a floatie somewhere in the ocean. Mettaa, like the other dhammaa which, with > development, constitute the arising of the Path, requires development. > And this development can come about due only to certain conditions > and not others. Yeah, true enough. If one doesn't know where they want to get to, it is nigh on impossible to go there. Cheers Herman #95307 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sat Jan 24, 2009 1:45 am Subject: Ignorance egberdina Hi all, According to A comprehensive manual of Abhidhamma, ignorance in the Suttas and the Abhidhamma are not quite the same. In the Suttas, ignorance is non-knowledge of the Four Noble Truths. In the Abhidhamma, it is non-knowledge of the Four Noble Truths, the pre-natal past, the post-mortem future, the past and the future together, and dependent arising. Some difference, or what?? If the above is correct, it completely blows my favourite heretic KenH out of any Theravadan water. Isn't it funny that there's no mention of the present! Cheers Herman #95308 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Sat Jan 24, 2009 4:07 am Subject: Re: What the Buddha said... to whom? abhidhammika Dear Jon, Alberto, Nina, Robert K, Ken H, Sarah, Herman, Howard and all How are you? Jon wrote: "I suppose I am among the so-called "KS folk", so let me give my answer to your question: No." Thanks, Jon, and Glad to hear from you. So, now, it becomes obvious that it was Alberto who first equated satipa.t.thaana with informal daily life practice while equating samatha with formal sitting meditation - in his original post. I wish that Alberto should have owned up to that fact when I first asked him about the person responsible for that assertion. Alerto, I will soon reply to your post asking me for straitforward writing. Best wishes Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org #95309 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jan 23, 2009 11:07 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 1/24/2009 3:40:48 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, jonabbott@... writes: To my understanding, the gist of the Kalama Sutta is that statements are to be judged against the teachings as given by the Buddha. =========================== Wow! I think you might consider rereading that! And please be sure to include in your reading the following part: _____________________ Now, Kalamas, don't go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, 'This contemplative is our teacher.' When you know for yourselves that, 'These qualities are skillful; these qualities are blameless; these qualities are praised by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to welfare & to happiness' — then you should enter & remain in them. -------------------------------------- Please especially note not to go by scripture nor by the thought, 'This contemplative is our teacher'. Please note his saying "When you know for yourselves that, 'These qualities are skillful; these qualities are blameless; these qualities are praised by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to welfare & to happiness' — then you should enter & remain in them," with particular attention to the initial phrase "When you know for yourselves." To interpret the gist of this material as you do is surprising to say the least. Always, the "gist" is the main point or part. It seems to me that you are substituting what you wish the Buddha had said in this sutta for what he did say. ======================== With metta, Howard (Anonymous) #95310 From: "szmicio" Date: Sat Jan 24, 2009 4:09 am Subject: nama rupa, again szmicio Dear Dhamma friends I am 23 today. My mom is going to buy a cake so we will have a very enojable time. But it's so hard to be aware of what's nama and what's rupa. There is so much clinging to those dreams we're involved. We cling to stories insted of being aware of nama and rupa. It's so hard to being aware of what's happening in present moment. I think I need to hear more about nama and rupa. Dear Nina, can you start a new series about conditions? Can you rewiew all 24 paccayas separately? and give us examples how to applay it in daily life? My best wishes Lukas #95311 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Sat Jan 24, 2009 5:14 am Subject: Re: What the Buddha said... to whom? abhidhammika Dear Alberto, Ken H, Nina, Robert K, Sarah, Jon, Herman, Howard and others How are you? Alberto wrote: "I'm not sure what you're charging me with, that K. Sujin didn't say what I said she did, or that I didn't study & considered what's in tipitaka, or both, I'd appreciate if you'd make your point in a less cumbersome, possibly straightforward, fashion." Alberto, I was not charging you with anything. I was merely paraphrasing what was found in your original post and comparing it to what you wrote in response to my question. This time, I will try my best to rewrite the issue as simple as possible. Your original post: "K. Sujin often asks this question when asked about quotes from Suttas which seem to contradict her understanding on basic aspects of the Dhamma, including formal, sitting meditation (samatha) and informal, daily life practice (satipatthana)." 1. formal, sitting meditation (samatha) When we remove the brackets, we get the form: samatha = formal sitting meditation. 2. informal, daily life practice (satipatthana). When we remove the brackets, we get the form: satipatthana = informal daily life practice. That was what I meant by "equating something with another". In a later post, you wrote: "My view that satipatthana applies to every day informal, normal life comes from studying & considering what's in tipitaka." From the above statement, we get the following. 3. "satipatthana applies to every day informal, normal life." Now, let's compare satipatthana in 2 and satipatthana in 3. Satipatthana in 2 meant exclusively informal daily life practice. Satipatthana in 3 applies to every day informal normal life. We should also note that the wording in 2 is informal daily life practice and the wording in 3 is every day informal normal life. Now, Alberto, do you notice the difference between satipatthana in position 2 and satipatthana in position 3? If you realise that satipatthana in position 2 and satipatthana in position 3 are no longer the same, here are my questions. Do you still accept satipatthana as asserted in position 2? Do you still regard satipatthana as an informal daily life practice? Thanking you in advance. Best wishes Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org #95312 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jan 24, 2009 12:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What the Buddha said... to whom? upasaka_howard Dear Suan (and Alberto & all) - Suan, like Alberto, I'm having a really hard time following what you are after. If you see a difference between the formulations that you think is important, I would find it very helpful if you were to make clear what you believe it to be and then ask Alberto whether or not he agrees. My understanding of Alberto is as follows, and I would appreciate his correcting me should I misunderstand: 1) He identifies samatha bhavana with "formal meditation," and 2) He identifies satipatthana bhavana with "informal, daily life meditation." The expression "every day informal, normal life" that he later uses I suppose would have been clearer had he written "everyday" instead of "every day." I believe that Alberto likely meant in what you designate as item #3, that satipatthana meditation applies (exclusively) to everyday, informal, normal life, which I understand as saying the same as before, namely that satipatthana meditation is, exactly, "informal, daily life meditation." Now I may be right or wrong in my understanding. But you must be after something specific, and I think it would be very helpful if you would simply spell out what that is. Then Alberto could give a clear reply that satisfactorily responds to what you are after. With metta, Howard (Anonymous) #95313 From: "Scott" Date: Sat Jan 24, 2009 6:16 am Subject: Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner scottduncan2 Dear All, Continuing: The Path of Purification. "31. 'And when he was the Great Monkey, the man whom he had pulled out of a rocky chasm thought: 'Now this is food for human kind Like other forest animals, So why then should a hungry man Not kill the ape to eat? [If if ask.] I'll travel independently Taking his meat as provision; Thus I shall cross the waste, and that Will furnish my viaticum' (Jaa.v,71). Then he took up a stone and dashed it on his head. But the monkey looked at him with eyes full of tears and said: 'Oh, act not so, good sir, or else The fate you reap will long deter All others from such deeds as this That you would do to me to day' (Jaa.v,71). And with no hate in his mind and regardless of his own pain he saw to it that the man reached his journey's end in safety.'" Path of Purity. "When, as the king of the monkeys (Jaataka v, 36; tr. v 28), he had saved a man from a mountain chasm, the man thinking: - 'Monkeys and such like deer are good to eat; What if I kill him and my hunger cheat? The beast, if slain, would furnish savoury meat. 'When sated, here no longer will I stay, But, well provisioned for full many a day, Out of the forest I will find a way,' lifted up a stone and and broke the monkey's head. With eyes full of tears the monkey looked at the man and said: - 'God bless thee, act not thus, I pray, good sir, For otherwise thy fate, I dare aver, Will long all others from such deeds deter'; and without being offended with the man or thinking of his own pain, took him to safety." Mahaakapi hutvaa attanaayeva pabbatapapaatato uddharitena purisena â€" 'Bhakkho aya.m manussaana.m, yatheva~n~ne vane migaa; Ya.mnuunima.m vadhitvaana, chaato khaadeyya vaanara.m. 'Aahitova gamissaami, ma.msamaadaaya sambala.m; Kantaara.m nittharissaami, paatheyya.m me bhavissatii 'ti. (jaa. 1.16.205-206); â€" Eva.m cintetvaa sila.m ukkhipitvaa matthake sampadaalite assupu.n.nehi nettehi ta.m purisa.m udikkhamaano â€" 'Maa ayyosi me bhadante, tva.m naametaadisa.m kari; Tva.m khosi naama diighaavu, a~n~na.m vaaretumarahasii 'ti. (jaa. 1.16.209); â€" Vatvaa tasmi.m purise citta.m appaduusetvaa attano ca dukkha.m acintetvaa tameva purisa.m khemantabhuumi.m sampaapesi. Sincerely, Scott. #95314 From: "Scott" Date: Sat Jan 24, 2009 6:35 am Subject: Re: nama rupa, again scottduncan2 Dear Lukas, Regarding: L: "I am 23 today..." Scott: Happy Birthday, Lukas! I hope you do have an enjoyable time. Sincerely, Scott. #95315 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jan 24, 2009 6:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] nama rupa, again nilovg Dear Lukas, Happy birthday, and it is so lovely that you have begun to develop understanding of Dhamma. Many happy returns with a growing understanding of Dhamma. See below. Op 24-jan-2009, om 13:09 heeft szmicio het volgende geschreven: > But it's so hard to be aware of what's nama and what's rupa. There is > so much clinging to those dreams we're involved. We cling to stories > insted of being aware of nama and rupa. It's so hard to being aware of > what's happening in present moment. ------ N: For all of us. I am going from one pleasant feeling to the next one, I find it so important to have happy experiences. Forgetting about Dhamma for a long time, and then a moment of waking up. Or listening to a Dhamma recording, and I think of other things, being far away with my thoughts. Then it is realised and I pick up the thread again. So it goes, and it is good to realise it at least. If we have aversion about clinging to dreams it shows clinging. No help. -------- > > L: I think I need to hear more about nama and rupa. ------ N: Yes, never enough. I need to hear more, that is why I like conversations about them, also here on dsg. -------- > > L:Dear Nina, can you start a new series about conditions? > Can you rewiew all 24 paccayas separately? and give us examples how to > applay it in daily life? -------- N: See http://www.zolag.co.uk/ free downloads, and you find my Conditions. I prepared it now ready for printing, and it will be printed end of year. Alan said that he has it ready now. In this book I try to give examples of each condition. Perhaps you looked already? If you want more, I can give additional examples. Any condition in particular to start with? Nina. #95316 From: "sprlrt" Date: Sat Jan 24, 2009 7:17 am Subject: Re: What the Buddha said... to whom? sprlrt Dear Suan, > > From the above statement, we get the following. > > 3. "satipatthana applies to every day informal, normal life." > > Now, let's compare satipatthana in 2 and satipatthana in 3. > > Satipatthana in 2 meant exclusively informal daily life practice. > > Satipatthana in 3 applies to every day informal normal life. > > We should also note that the wording in 2 is informal daily life > practice and the wording in 3 is every day informal normal life. > > Now, Alberto, do you notice the difference between satipatthana in > position 2 and satipatthana in position 3? > > If you realise that satipatthana in position 2 and satipatthana in > position 3 are no longer the same, here are my questions. > > Do you still accept satipatthana as asserted in position 2? > > Do you still regard satipatthana as an informal daily life practice? > Thanks for clarifying you point, my understanding of what K. Sujin says is that when one does something, anything, not only sitting, with the purpose of inducing the arising of kusala dhammas, sati and panna in the case of satipatthana, then there is lobha, which is akusala and can only induce the arising of yet more akusala dhammas only. And that only the panna of satipatthana level can tell kusala from akusala dhammas. Having said that, I don't remember her stating that satipatthana can develop exclusively and absolutely in informal daily life practice only. Alberto Spera #95317 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jan 24, 2009 7:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: anapana. The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. nilovg Dear Rob Ep, Op 24-jan-2009, om 6:14 heeft Robert Epstein het volgende geschreven: > I have a question about how one contemplates these qualities of nama > and rupa of "impermanence, anatta," etc., "turning away from it," > "thoughts making for cessation," as to whether these contemplations > and thoughts are concepts or direct seeing of these qualities of the > object. ------- N: This tetrad deals with pure insight.< The Visuddhimagga (VIII, 237) states about the fourth tetrad, ‘This tetrad deals only with pure insight while the previous three deal with serenity and insight.’> Therefore whatever is contemplated pertains only to nama and rupa, not concepts. ------ > R: Would the ability for the citta to pick up the impermanance > and undesirability of the body, for instance, be a citta picking up > "hardness," or "smoothness," or some other quality of the body, > accompanied by cetasikas that understand that they are impermanent, > unsatisfying, non-self, etc.? ------- N: The body as a whole is a concept, and hardness is a reality. Not the whole body arises and falls away, but hardness or softness, etc. Citta accompanied by insight contemplates. It is direct understanding, not thinking. --------- > R: Or would there be a set of concepts and > thoughts contemplating the nature of the nama or rupa? ------ N: See above. --------- > Or would it be > the concept of "self" or "body" or "thoughts cherishing self," that > would be contemplated as "undesireable," "impermanent," etc. and seen > not to constitute a self? ------- N: Under the mental objects, dhammas, included in the fourth application of mindfulness are also the hindrances, thus clinging and other defilements. These are realities and when they appear they can be objects of insight that realizes them as just dhammas, conditioned, not mine. I quote Jon's post on this: Jon: The mind objects/mental objects section refers to the dhammas (realities) that can be the object of a moment of consciousness, and this in turn means any and all realities (including those covered by the other 3 sections of the sutta). Only dhammas (realties) can be the object of satipatthana, because only something that has its own characteristic that is capable of being experienced is considered to be a dhamma‚; anything that does not, is not. In the Satipatthana Sutta itself, the 'eligible' mind-objects are described in different ways. One of these ways is as the 5 khandhas (Aggregates), and these 5 khandhas encompass all dhammas (other than Nibbana). I have pasted below the passage from The Way of Mindfulness: Section on Mental Objects 2. The Aggregates "And, further, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu lives contemplating mental objects in the mental objects of the five aggregates of clinging. "How, O bhikkhus, does a bhikkhu live contemplating mental objects in the mental objects of the five aggregates of clinging? "Here, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu thinks: 'Thus is material form [rupa]; thus is the arising of material form; and thus is the disappearance of material form. Thus is feeling [vedana]; thus is the arising of feeling; and thus is the disappearance of feeling. Thus is perception [sanna]; thus is the arising of perception; and thus is the disappearance of perception. Thus are the formations [sankhara]; thus is the arising of the formations; and thus is the disappearance of the formations. Thus is consciousness [vinnana]; thus is the arising of consciousness; and thus is the disappearance of consciousness.' Thus he lives contemplating mental objects in mental objects, internally ... and clings to naught in the world. "Thus, indeed, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu lives contemplating mental object in the mental objects of the five aggregates of clinging." [ends] (end quote) ***** Nina. #95318 From: "Scott" Date: Sat Jan 24, 2009 7:35 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner scottduncan2 Dear Herman, Regarding: H: "It is worth considering whether things get done without a will to do so. That translates into asking whether will is a necessary condition for things to be done." Scott: And not 'I will', merely willing. Willing is a reality, I merely focus on the absence of one who wills, not on the absence of willing. Willing drives action and action is kamma. Me: "...These are not subject to control." H: "It depends on what it is that is being willed." Scott: And not at all on 'who' wills it. No dhamma is subject to being manipulated by 'someone'. That action leads to result is merely a statement about conditionality. H: "Clearly so if whatever Path one has imagined and made subject to the will has not delivered on the promise to be the end to suffering." Scott: Only certain conditions, and not others, lead to the end to suffering. One Path is not imaginary while all the rest are. H: "Anyone who doesn't know how/when metta arises and ceases, is only daydreaming metta. There is a chance, though, that they will hit the bullseye, just like a turtle has a chance of bobbing up in a floatie somewhere in the ocean." Scott: I'm not sure, given the injection of the term 'chance' if I agree with the above. I probably misunderstand what you say. 'Chance' is not included in the Dhamma. H: "...If one doesn't know where they want to get to, it is nigh on impossible to go there." Scott: Yep. Speaking conventionally of course. Sincerely, Scott. #95319 From: "connie" Date: Sat Jan 24, 2009 7:36 am Subject: cornerstone nichiconn Dear Friends, Continuing on from #95279, Karunadasa writes: The difference is established by defining the same word, pannatti, in two different ways. When it is defined as subject it is nama-pannatti -- the concept as name. When it is defined as object it is attha-pannatti -- the concept as meaning. If the former is that which expresses (vacaka), the latter is that which is expressible (vacaniya).133 In this same sense, if the former is abhidhana, the latter is abhidheya.134 Since attha-pannatti stands for the process of conceptualization it represents more the subjective and dynamic aspect, and since nama-pannatti stands for the process of verbalization it represents more the objective and static aspect. For the assignment of a term to what is constructed in thought -- in other words, its expression through the symbolic medium of language -- invests it with some kind of relative permanence and objectivity. It is, so to say, crystallized into an entity. 133. ADSS 159. 134. ADSSV 54. ... to be continued, connie #95320 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jan 24, 2009 2:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner upasaka_howard Hi, Scott (and Herman) - Scott, this is celebration time! ;-) I very much like how you formulate things in this post. You are precise and up-front, and I agree with what you assert. In a message dated 1/24/2009 10:35:37 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, scduncan@... writes: Dear Herman, Regarding: H: "It is worth considering whether things get done without a will to do so. That translates into asking whether will is a necessary condition for things to be done." Scott: And not 'I will', merely willing. --------------------------------------- Howard: Yes. That is just how I would put it! ----------------------------------------- Willing is a reality, I merely focus on the absence of one who wills, not on the absence of willing. Willing drives action and action is kamma. ----------------------------------------- Howard: Exactly. And to emphasize: There is no "one who wills," but willing occurs! ----------------------------------------- Me: "...These are not subject to control." H: "It depends on what it is that is being willed." Scott: And not at all on 'who' wills it. No dhamma is subject to being manipulated by 'someone'. ------------------------------------------ Howard: Only figuratively speaking. It is important to note, i believe, that the conditions underlying what we call "someone's activities" are not the same for all "someones." So, using "normal speak," for different people, different conditions, and hence different results. ----------------------------------------- That action leads to result is merely a statement about conditionality. ---------------------------------------- Howard: Exactly! What else could it be! -------------------------------------- H: "Clearly so if whatever Path one has imagined and made subject to the will has not delivered on the promise to be the end to suffering." Scott: Only certain conditions, and not others, lead to the end to suffering. One Path is not imaginary while all the rest are. --------------------------------------- Howard: I believe so. -------------------------------------- H: "Anyone who doesn't know how/when metta arises and ceases, is only daydreaming metta. There is a chance, though, that they will hit the bullseye, just like a turtle has a chance of bobbing up in a floatie somewhere in the ocean." Scott: I'm not sure, given the injection of the term 'chance' if I agree with the above. I probably misunderstand what you say. 'Chance' is not included in the Dhamma. ---------------------------------------- Howard: Well, when 'by chance' means "unintentionally," I see 'chance' as a meaningful word. --------------------------------------- H: "...If one doesn't know where they want to get to, it is nigh on impossible to go there." Scott: Yep. Speaking conventionally of course. ---------------------------------------- Howard: All speech is conventional and unavoidably off the mark as regards reality, IMO. Of course, some speech is less figurative than other speech. So long as the figurative elements are not read as literal, we're relatively safe. :-) ------------------------------------- Sincerely, Scott. ========================== With metta, Howard (Anonymous) #95321 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jan 24, 2009 8:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Jhaana. Abhidhamma. nilovg Hi Howard, Op 23-jan-2009, om 20:08 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven:From the Dhammapada there is the following: > > 372 > There's no jhana > for one with no discernment, > no > discernment > for one with no jhana. > But one with both jhana > & > discernment: > he's on the verge > of Unbinding. ------- N: Let us go to the Pali: Natthi jhaana.m apa~n~nassa Clear, also for jhaana there must be pa~n~naa, understanding. Pali: pa~n~naa natthi ajhaayato when there is not contemplation (ajhaayato) there is no pa~n~naa. N: Here the term a-jhaayato, 'by no contemplation' is used. When there is reference to the development to the stages of jhaana usually we find the term: pa.thamajjhaanaadi, the first jhaana and so on, or pa.thamajhaanaa pa.t.thaya, beginning with the first jhaana. Jhaayati has a wider meaning. You remember the discussion about the Sallekhasutta (M 8): meditate bhikkhus, jhaayate: the Co gives the meaning: 1: meditation on the 40 subjects (kasina, etc.), aaramma.na nijjhaana, and also: 2 on the characteristics of realities, lakkha.na nijjhaana, and this is insight. Sarah gave a post about this and discussed it with Scott. So, I do not think this text is a proof that everybody must develop the stages of jhaana. ----------- > H: and in MN 36, we find the following said by the Buddha: > > I thought: 'I recall once, when my father the Sakyan was working, > and I was sitting in the cool shade of a rose-apple tree, then quite > secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful mental qualities > I entered > & remained in the first jhana... ------- N: In the context: the Buddha practised austerities and realized that this was not the way and he found that he did not need to eschew the happiness of jhaana. However, his teachers taught him the highest stages up to aruupa jhaana and he found that that was not the way. He developed insight. The fact that he developed jhaana and insight does not make it compelling for everybody to develop jhaana. These texts are no proof that there is a rule for everybody to develop jhaana. Nina #95322 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jan 24, 2009 4:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Jhaana. Abhidhamma. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 1/24/2009 11:14:50 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: > H: and in MN 36, we find the following said by the Buddha: > > I thought: 'I recall once, when my father the Sakyan was working, > and I was sitting in the cool shade of a rose-apple tree, then quite > secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful mental qualities > I entered > & remained in the first jhana... ------- N: In the context: the Buddha practised austerities and realized that this was not the way and he found that he did not need to eschew the happiness of jhaana. However, his teachers taught him the highest stages up to aruupa jhaana and he found that that was not the way. He developed insight. The fact that he developed jhaana and insight does not make it compelling for everybody to develop jhaana. These texts are no proof that there is a rule for everybody to develop jhaana. ============================= Nina, you missed the important part of that sutta, namely < 'Could that be the path to Awakening?' Then following on that memory came the realization: 'That is the path to Awakening.' > Nina, it just amazes me the efforts you will make to avoid with what is contrary to your own opinion or liking. How much clearer does it need to be than 'That is the path to Awakening.'? Also, how much clearer does the Buddha have to be than in SN 45.8 where he is recorded as teaching the following? _____________ "And what is right concentration? There is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities — enters & remains in the _first jhana_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca4/samma-samadhi/jhana.html\ #j1) : rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters & remains in the _second jhana_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca4/samma-samadhi/jhana.html\ #j2) : rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. With the fading of rapture, he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the _third jhana_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca4/samma-samadhi/jhana.html\ #j3) , of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — he enters & remains in the _fourth jhana_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca4/samma-samadhi/jhana.html\ #j4) : purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is called right concentration." ----------------------- Each of us can do what s/he wishes, with meditating only an option. No one is insisting that anyone work at cultivating the jhanas. But, please, at least stop dissuading people from doing what the Buddha said should be done. With metta, Howard (From the Avarana Sutta) #95323 From: "connie" Date: Sat Jan 24, 2009 9:16 am Subject: Sangiiti Sutta Threes (46-48) nichiconn Dear Friends, CSCD < Date: Sat Jan 24, 2009 10:50 am Subject: Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. epsteinrob Hi Alberto. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sprlrt" wrote: > Unfortunately what arises most often in us puthujjana > puggalas/ordinary wordlings (clearly not the recipients of the > anapanasati discourse), because of kilesa, are the 12 akusala citta, > none with sati, none with panna, all with ekaggata cetasika (samadhi), > in which case neither vipassana nor samatha can be developed, just > plain old miccha samadhi, i.e. focussing one's attention on something. > > Alberto Appreciate your explanations. The fact that samatha/samadhi/panna can arise in various combinations, which portend different effects, and to distinguish this from ordinary focussing which doesn't lead to a higher understanding, is a good model to have. I take it that certain conditions are necessary to elevate the attention from ordinary mundane focussing to one of the higher combinations that have some beneficial effect. What kinds of conditions lead from ordinary miccha samadhi to sati, the more spiritual variety of samadhi or panna? Thanks, Robert ====================== #95326 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Sat Jan 24, 2009 11:05 am Subject: [dsg] Re: anapana. The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. epsteinrob Hi Nina! Thanks for your help with this. A couple of specifics below. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > N: This tetrad deals with pure insight.< The Visuddhimagga (VIII, > 237) states about the fourth tetrad, > > `This tetrad deals only with pure insight while the previous three > deal with serenity and insight.'> > Therefore whatever is contemplated pertains only to nama and rupa, > not concepts. ... > ------- > N: Under the mental objects, dhammas, included in the fourth > application of mindfulness are also the hindrances, thus clinging and > other defilements. These are realities and when they appear they can > be objects of insight that realizes them as just dhammas, > conditioned, not mine. So, when one sees the dhammas as they actually are, in pure vipassana, one sees that they are arising, maintaining and dissolving in short order and sees directly that they are thus impermanent, unsatisfying and do not constitute a self or part of self. In seeing these attributes of the dhamma directly, one releases clinging to them? Would that be a fair description of how one would regard each arising dhamma with pure insight? If so it seems that during the duration of the vipassana cittas, the action towards the dhammas would be one of continued releasing of the conditioned dhammas and letting them go. One thing that is confusing is that the citta which is regarding the dhamma is itself separate from the dhamma. However, since the citta too is an impermanent dhamma and is not itself the object of vipassana, how does one ever gain insight into the citta that is doing the observing? It seems that there is either "citta as a background self" experiencing the dhamma, or else an infinite regress of cittas that are doing the direct experiencing but are not themselves being experienced. How does one get away from these "undisclosed, unexperienced" cittas that are doing the experiencing of other namas and rupas? Or is the citta that is experiencing through pure insight transparent to itself in some way? I am sure it cannot be the object of its own insight? I can't find a way out of this problem as long as the citta is separate from its object. As another related question, when nibbana is experienced, is there a citta that experiences it? If so, what is the condition of that citta such that it is able to experience nibbana while being a separate nama in its own right? Since only nibbana is unconditioned, wouldn't the citta that is experiencing nibbana be conditioned itself; and how can a conditioned citta experience an unconditioned reality? I am also curious about what the nature of nibbana is as an object. Since it is unconditioned, is it said to have any attributes, or does it have no attributes, since there is nothing to arise or fall within it? Thanks, Robert =================================== #95327 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jan 24, 2009 11:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ignorance nilovg Hi Herman, Op 24-jan-2009, om 10:45 heeft Herman Hofman het volgende geschreven: > According to A comprehensive manual of Abhidhamma, ignorance in the > Suttas and the Abhidhamma are not quite the same. In the Suttas, > ignorance is non-knowledge of the Four Noble Truths. In the > Abhidhamma, it is non-knowledge of the Four Noble Truths, the > pre-natal past, the post-mortem future, the past and the future > together, and dependent arising. > > Some difference, or what?? > > If the above is correct, it completely blows my favourite heretic KenH > out of any Theravadan water. Isn't it funny that there's no mention of > the present! --------- N:The four noble Truths: let us take the first one: dukkha. This is the falling away of what has arisen. It falls away and thus it is not worth clinging to. Is this not related to the present moment, seeing now, hearing now? They all fall away. In different texts the definition may be shorter or longer, it does not matter. We have to know the characteristic of not knowing, avijja. Is there now? Nina. #95328 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jan 24, 2009 11:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Jhaana. Abhidhamma. nilovg Hi Howard, Op 24-jan-2009, om 18:02 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Each of us can do what s/he wishes, with meditating only an option. No > one is insisting that anyone work at cultivating the jhanas. But, > please, at > least stop dissuading people from doing what the Buddha said should > be done. --------- N: Where did I dissuade people from jhaana? ------ Nina. #95329 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sat Jan 24, 2009 1:22 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] nama rupa, again egberdina Hi Lukas, 2009/1/24 szmicio : > Dear Dhamma friends > I am 23 today. My mom is going to buy a cake so we will have a very > enojable time. Happy birthday to you. And may all your tomorrows be happy as well. > > But it's so hard to be aware of what's nama and what's rupa. There is > so much clinging to those dreams we're involved. We cling to stories > insted of being aware of nama and rupa. It's so hard to being aware of > what's happening in present moment. I would recommend that you stop reading for a while, and stop writing for a while, and stop talking for a while, and stop thinking for a while, and spend some time developing concentration. You will find that there will be a happy time even without a birthday cake :-) And there will only be namas and rupas. Just what you want. I'd wish you god luck in your endeavour, except for that there is no luck involved. > > I think I need to hear more about nama and rupa. > Cheers Herman #95330 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sat Jan 24, 2009 2:04 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner egberdina Hi Scott, 2009/1/25 Scott : > Dear Herman, > > Regarding: > > H: "It is worth considering whether things get done without a will > to do so. That translates into asking whether will is a necessary > condition for things to be done." > > Scott: And not 'I will', merely willing. True, but I didn't say "I will". > Willing is a reality, I > merely focus on the absence of one who wills, not on the absence of > willing. Willing drives action and action is kamma. > > Me: "...These are not subject to control." > > H: "It depends on what it is that is being willed." > > Scott: And not at all on 'who' wills it. That's right. But why do you keep saying it? > No dhamma is subject to > being manipulated by 'someone'. That action leads to result is merely > a statement about conditionality. That's right. And stones rolling down hills do so without volition, and people doing whatever they do act with volition. But people are not compelled to do whatever they will. In fact, people are not compelled to do anything in particular. > H: "Anyone who doesn't know how/when metta arises and ceases, is only > daydreaming metta. There is a chance, though, that they will hit the > bullseye, just like a turtle has a chance of bobbing up in a floatie > somewhere in the ocean." > > Scott: I'm not sure, given the injection of the term 'chance' if I > agree with the above. I probably misunderstand what you say. > 'Chance' is not included in the Dhamma. > Chance as the unforeseen and unpredictable coinciding of conditions is well captured in the following (SN56:48) "Monks, suppose that this great earth were totally covered with water, and a man were to toss a yoke with a single hole there. A wind from the east would push it west, a wind from the west would push it east. A wind from the north would push it south, a wind from the south would push it north. And suppose a blind sea-turtle were there. It would come to the surface once every one hundred years. Now what do you think: would that blind sea-turtle, coming to the surface once every one hundred years, stick his neck into the yoke with a single hole?" "It would be a sheer coincidence, lord, that the blind sea-turtle, coming to the surface once every one hundred years, would stick his neck into the yoke with a single hole." "It's likewise a sheer coincidence that one obtains the human state. It's likewise a sheer coincidence that a Tathagata, worthy & rightly self-awakened, arises in the world. It's likewise a sheer coincidence that a doctrine & discipline expounded by a Tathagata appears in the world. Now, this human state has been obtained. A Tathagata, worthy & rightly self-awakened, has arisen in the world. A doctrine & discipline expounded by a Tathagata appears in the world. "Therefore your duty is the contemplation, 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress.' Your duty is the contemplation, 'This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.'" Having heard the instruction, no-one is compelled to do anything. But some will equate human existence with the rocks passively rolling down the hill, and some will accept that their human existence is the correct condition for the making of directed effort in line with the given instruction. Cheers Herman #95331 From: "Alex" Date: Sat Jan 24, 2009 2:10 pm Subject: Re: Ignorance truth_aerator Dear Herman, Nina and all, There is additional description of what Ignorance means in KhandaSamyutta. Not knowing 5 aggregates, their origination, their cessation, gratification, drawback and escape from the 5 aggregates. With best Wishes, Alex > According to A comprehensive manual of Abhidhamma, ignorance in the > Suttas and the Abhidhamma are not quite the same. In the Suttas, > ignorance is non-knowledge of the Four Noble Truths. In the > Abhidhamma, it is non-knowledge of the Four Noble Truths, the > pre-natal past, the post-mortem future, the past and the future > together, and dependent arising. #95332 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sat Jan 24, 2009 2:19 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Ignorance egberdina Hi Nina, > --------- > N:The four noble Truths: let us take the first one: dukkha. This is > the falling away of what has arisen. It falls away and thus it is not > worth clinging to. Is this not related to the present moment, seeing > now, hearing now? They all fall away. > In different texts the definition may be shorter or longer, it does > not matter. Or completely different, And I do think it does matter. "Birth is stressful, aging is stressful, death is stressful; sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair are stressful; association with the unbeloved is stressful, separation from the loved is stressful, not getting what is wanted is stressful. In short, the five clinging-aggregates are stressful." > We have to know the characteristic of not knowing, I would say that is impossible. Rather, we have to know craving. > avijja. Is there now? As long as there is craving, there is no now. The present moment is the end of the Path, not the beginning of it. To start at the end and imagine what is not present as present is hardly insighful Cheers Herman #95333 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jan 24, 2009 9:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner upasaka_howard Hi, TG - In a message dated 1/24/2009 1:34:39 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@... writes: Howard: Well, when 'by chance' means "unintentionally,Well, when 'by chance' mea meaningful word. --------------------------------------- ............................................................ TG: Oh, you already addressed it. :-) ============================ Well, yes, but not quite as your computer has transmitted it! LOLOL! With metta, Howard (Anonymous) #95334 From: "connie" Date: Sat Jan 24, 2009 2:59 pm Subject: re: nama rupa, again nichiconn Dear Lukas, Herman, Happy birthday, Lukas. H: I would recommend that you stop reading for a while, and stop writing for a while, and stop talking for a while, and stop thinking for a while, and spend some time developing concentration. You will find that there will be a happy time even without a birthday cake :-) And there will only be namas and rupas. Just what you want. I'd wish you god luck in your endeavour, except for that there is no luck involved. c: Lol... pretty sure I know what you mean, but "stop thinking", Herman? Where is citta then? A little from AN, Nines, chIV, 41-Tapussa, wherein Tapussa says to Aananda: << We householders, reverend Aananda, are pleasure-seekers, pleasure-fond, pleasure-doting, pleasure-mad and, being so, it seems a real precipice to us, this giving up of all; yet I've heard, reverend sir, that in this Dhamma-discipline the heart of every young monk leaps up at this giving up, becomes calm, steadfast and inclined thereto, seeing it is the peace. ... >> and Buddha says to them: << When I was but a being awakening, Aananda, and not wholly awakened, ere there was full awakenment, I thought thus: Good is the giving up of all; good it is to go apart - but my mind leapt not up, became calm, steadfast, nor inclined to this giving up though I saw "It is the peace." And I thought: The peril of pleasures is not seen by me, is not made much of by me; the advantage of this giving up is not won, is not enjoyed by me; so my mind leaps not up, becomes calm, steadfast, nor inclined to this giving up though I see it is the peace. And I thought: If, seeing the peril of pleasures, I were to make much of it; if, winning the advantage of this giving up, I were to enjoy it; it would surely happen that my mind would leap up, become calm, steadfast and inclined to this giving up on seeing it to be the peace. And presently, Aananda, aloof from sense desires, ... I entered and abode in the first musing; but as I abode in this abiding, thoughts and distractions of a sensuous kind beset me; and it was for me a disease. Just as some ill, amounting to a disease, might arise in some happy person, Aananda, even so thoughts and distractions beset me and it was for me a disease. ...>> peace, connie #95335 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sat Jan 24, 2009 3:12 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] re: nama rupa, again egberdina Hi connie, 2009/1/25 connie : > > c: Lol... pretty sure I know what you mean, but "stop thinking", Herman? Where is citta then? Ohh, I suppose in the same place that a fire that isn't burning is :-) Cheers Herman #95336 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jan 24, 2009 10:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Jhaana. Abhidhamma. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 1/24/2009 2:54:44 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Op 24-jan-2009, om 18:02 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Each of us can do what s/he wishes, with meditating only an option. No > one is insisting that anyone work at cultivating the jhanas. But, > please, at > least stop dissuading people from doing what the Buddha said should > be done. --------- N: Where did I dissuade people from jhaana? ------------------------------------------------ Howard: I'm talking about intentional practice to cultivate the jhanas, Nina, and I understand you to oppose that and all other intentional actions, except possibly text study. If I'm wrong in that, please correct me. I will be exceedingly pleased to be wrong. ----------------------------------------------- ------ Nina. =========================== With metta, Howard (Anonymous) #95337 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sat Jan 24, 2009 10:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner TGrand458@... Hi Howard In a message dated 1/24/2009 3:56:48 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, upasaka@... writes: TG: Oh, you already addressed it. :-) ============================ Well, yes, but not quite as your computer has transmitted it! LOLOL! With metta, Howard ............................................................. TG: I guess it time to trade in my Commodore 64. ;-) Think I can get $500 for it? #95338 From: "dhammasaro01" Date: Sat Jan 24, 2009 9:57 am Subject: Re: A Vinaya question dhammasaro01 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "reverendaggacitto" wrote: > The rule against somebody joining the Sangha who is not complete in all 32 body parts how did this come about?The rule against joining while one still has debts? I've seen it portrayed(the 32 bodly parts rule)as something cold hearted on the part of Ven.Gotama i can figure how > this probally came about but would rather make sure if possible. > Where would i find this in the Vinaya? ............................................... Bhante, I was unable to locate a reference to the 32 body parts. I did find a reference which I excerpt: 5) Those who are physically handicapped, feeble, or deformed. The following list is from the Canon, with passages from the Commentary in brackets: an applicant with a hand cut off [C: at least from the palm] ... a foot cut off [C: at least from the ball of the foot].. a hand and foot cut off ... an ear cut off ... a nose cut off ... an ear and nose cut off [C: in the case of ears and nose, if the cut-off part can be reconnected, the applicant may go forth] ... a finger or toe cut off [C: so that nothing of the nail appears] ... a thumb or big toe cut off .. a cut tendon ... one who has webbed fingers [C: if the fingers are separated by surgery, or if a sixth finger is removed, the applicant may go forth] ... a bent-over person [C: bent- over forward (a hunchback), bent-over back (a swayback), bent-over to either side; a slight crookedness is to be expected in all candidates, as only a Buddha is perfectly straight] ... a dwarf ... one with a club foot (or elephantiasis) [C: if the foot is operated on so as to become a normal foot, he may go forth] ... one who disgraces the assembly [C: through some deformity; (the list here is very long and includes many seemingly harmless characteristics, such as connected eyebrows, a lack of a beard or moustache, etc. This is one area where the Commentary seems to have gone overboard)] ... one who is blind in one eye ... one who has a crooked limb [C: limb = at least a hand, foot, or finger] ... one who is lame ... one half- paralyzed [C: paralyzed in one hand, one foot, or down one side] ... a cripple [C: one who needs a crutch or stool to move along] ... one feeble from old age ... one who is blind... dumb [C: unable to speak or with such a bad stutter that he cannot pronounce the Three Refuges clearly]... deaf ... blind and dumb ... blind and deaf (§ — not mentioned in BD) ... deaf and dumb ... blind and deaf and dumb. For more details see Bhikkhu Thanissaro book, Buddhist Monatic Code, or visit web site: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/bmc2/bmc2.ch14.h tml I trust the above helps, bhante. metta (maitri), Chuck #95339 From: "Graham" Date: Sat Jan 24, 2009 12:02 pm Subject: help please! grahamarussell Many thanks to Connie and Nina Graham #95340 From: "colette" Date: Sat Jan 24, 2009 7:21 am Subject: Re: What the Buddha said... to whom? ksheri3 Good Morning Suan Lu Zaw, Hey, I LIKE THAT POST YOU JUST GAVE TO ALBERTO! Maybe, even, a little "jealousy" rose in me when I read how well you slowed down the speed of the message and how you gave the parts such good descriptions, definitions. toodles, colette > > Alberto, I was not charging you with anything. I was merely > paraphrasing what was found in your original post and comparing it > to what you wrote in response to my question. <....> #95341 From: "S.Ganesh" Date: Fri Jan 23, 2009 11:14 pm Subject: ONLY ONE BREATH - A Must Read behappy.metta ONLY ONE BREATH By Unknown Author This morning I was talking to Venerable Subbato and he was saying he never has developed Anapanasati - mindfulness of the breath. So I said , ' Can you be mindful of one inhalation ? ' And he said , ' Oh yes.' ' And of one exhalation ? ' And he said, ' Yes.' And I said, ' Got it ! ' There's nothing more to it than that. However, one tends to expect to develop some special kind of ability to go into some special state. And because we don't do that, then we think we can't do it. But the way of the spiritual life is through renunciation , relinquishment , letting go not through attaining or acquiring. Even the jhanas* are relinquishments rather than attainments. If we relinquish more and more , letting go more and more , then the jhanic states are natural. The attitude is most important. To practise anapanasati , one brings the attention onto one inhalation, being mindful from the beginning to the end. One inhalation, that's it ; and then the same goes for the exhalation. That's the perfect attainment of anapanasati. The awareness of just that much is the result of concentration of the mind through sustained attention on the breath - from the beginning to the end of the inhalation , from the beginning to the end of the exhalation. The attitude is always one of letting go , not attaching to any ideas or feelings that arise from that , so that you're always fresh with the next inhalation , the next exhalation , completely as it is . You're not carrying over anything. So it's a way of relinquishment, of letting go, rather than of attaining and achieving. The dangers in meditation practice is the habit of grasping at things , grasping at states ; so the concept that's most useful is the concept of letting go , rather than of attaining and achieving. If you say today that yesterday you had a really super meditation , absolutely fantastic , just what you've always dreamed of , and then today you try to get the same wonderful experience as yesterday, but you get more restless and more agitated than ever before - now why is that ? Why can't we get what we want ? It's because we're trying to attain something that we remember rather than really working with the way things are , as they happen to be now. So the correct way is one of mindfulness , of looking at the way it is now rather than remembering yesterday and trying to get to that state again. The first year I meditated I didn't have a teacher. I was in this little kuti* in Nong Khai for about ten months , and I had all kinds of blazing insights. Being alone for ten months , not having to talk , not having to go anywhere , everything calmed down after several months, and then I thought I was a fully enlightened person, an arahant. I was sure of it. I found out later that I wasn't. I remember we went through a famine in Nong Khai that year and we didn't get very much to eat. I had malnutrition, so I thought, ' Maybe malnutrition's the answer. If I just starve myself...' I remember being so weak with malnutrition at Nong Khai that my earlobes started cracking open. On waking up , I'd have to pry my eyelids open ; they'd be stuck shut with the stuff that comes out of your eyelids when you're not feeling very well. Then one day this Canadian monk brought me three cans of tinned milk. In Asia they have tinned sweetened milk and it's very very delicious. And he also brought me some instant coffee, and a flask of hot water. So I made a cup of this : put in a bit of coffee , poured in some of this milk , poured hot water and started drinking it. And I just went crazy. It was so utterly delicious, the first time I had anything sweet in weeks, or anything stimulating. And being malnourished and being in a very dull tired apathetic state, this was like high-octane petrol - whoomph ! Immediately I gulped that down - I couldn't stop myself - and I managed to consume all three tins of milk and a good portion of that coffee. And my mind went flying into outer space, or it seemed like it, and I thought, ' Maybe that's the secret. If I can just get somebody to buy me tinned milk.' When I went to Wat Pah Pong the following year I kept thinking, ' Oh , I had all those wonderful experiences in Nong Khai. I had all those beautiful visions, and all those fantastic floating experiences and blazing insights , and it seemed like I understood everything. And you even thought you were an arahant.' At Wat Pah Pong, that first year there, I didn't have much of anything. I just kept trying to do all the things I'd done in Nong Khai to get these things. But after a while , even using strong cups of coffee didn't work any more. I didn't seem to get those exhilarations , those fantastic highs and blazing insights , that I had the first year. So after the first Vassa* at Wat Pah Pong , I thought , 'This place is not for me. I think I'll go and try to repeat what happened in Nong Khai.' And I left Ajahn Chah and went to live on Pupek mountain in Sakorn Nakorn province. There , at last , I was in an idyllic spot. Howeve r, for the almsround there you had to leave before dawn and go down the mountain , which was quite a climb , and wait for the villagers to come. They'd bring you food , and then you had to climb all the way back up and eat this food before twelve noon. That was quite a problem. I was with one other monk, a Thai monk , and I thought , ' He's really very good ', and I was quite impressed with him. But when we were on this mountain, he wanted me to teach him English ; so I got really angry with him ! It was in an area where there was a lot of terrorists and communists, in North-East Thailand. There were helicopters flying overhead sometimes checking us out. Once they came and took me down to the provincial town, wondering whether I was a communist spy. Then I got violently ill , so ill that they had to carry me down the mountain. I was stuck in a wretched place by a reservoir under a tin roof in the hot season with insects buzzing in and out of my ears and orifices. With horrible food I nearly died , come to think of it . I almost didn't make it. But it was during that time in that tin-roof lean-to that a real change took place. I was really despairing and sick and weak and totally depressed , and my mind would fall into these hellish realms , with the terrible heat and discomfort. I felt like I was being cooked ; it was like torture. Then a change came. Suddenly, I just stopped my mind ; I refused to get caught in that negativity and I started to practise anapanasati. I used the breath to concentrate my mind and things changed very quickly. After that , I recovered my health and it was time to enter the next Vassa , so I went back - I'd promised Ajahn Chah I'd go back to Wat Pah Pong for the Vassa - and my robes were all tattered and torn and patched. I looked terrible. When Ajahn Chah saw me, he just burst out laughing. And I was so glad to get back after all that ! <....> #95342 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jan 24, 2009 3:12 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner upasaka_howard Hi, TG - TG: I guess it time to trade in my Commodore 64. ;-) Think I can get $500 for it? ============================== LOL! No, much more. Antiques are really valuable! With metta, Howard (From the Diamond Sutra) #95343 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Jan 24, 2009 8:44 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] new member sarahprocter... Hi Lawrence, --- On Fri, 23/1/09, lawrencebouhami@... wrote: >just a quick email to introduce myself. My name is Lawrence and I live in The Netherlands. I got interested in Buddhism 6 months ago and since then I've been rapidly gaining a sense of what Buddhism is about, although the more I (think to) know the more my understanding changes. ..... S: Thanks for introducing yourself and welcome to DSG! Yes, I think the more the understanding grows, the more we realise how little we know too. As you say, the understanding changes... ... >But Buddhism already has had a big positive influence on my life to make me decide to sign up for a 21-day retreat in a Buddhist monastery in Chang Mai, Thailand this March. ..... S: It's a shame you won't be arriving til March as Nina, we, Ann and others will be in Bangkok for discussions with A.Sujin during the first half of February and you'd be most welcome to join us. in any case, if you're passing through Bangkok, you may like to attend a discussion session with her. .... >While searching online for texts to further my understanding of the Dhamma I came across an e-book called Abhidhamma in Daily Life (ADL). This happened when I started to get interested in the Abhidhamma. I felt that despite its pretty inaccessible nature the Abhidhamma could enrich my understanding of the Buddha's words in a big way. But texts about the Abhidhamma were hard to find and the ones I found were helpful but still left me with a lot of questions. But ADL has done a lot to further my understanding. .... S: I'm glad to hear this and look forward to reading your questions and any comments. It's not long before your retreat, so 'fire' away! ... >I hope by becoming a member of this group I can learn more and who knows maybe I can help some new members out as well in the future. ... S: We all learn from questions and discussions, including from different viewpoints, I think. I'm sure you'll be helping old as well as new members through the points you raise! Metta, Sarah ======= #95344 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Jan 24, 2009 8:51 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] help please! sarahprocter... Hi Graham, Welcome here as well! Nina and Connie have answered your question. Of course, as lay people, there are no 'rules' as such with regard to fortune telling and whether we have or don't have an interest in such, there can be awareness and understanding of dhammas, whilst listening to or reading what a fortune teller has to say. Do you have any particular reason for your question? May I ask where you live? If you'd care to let us know any more about your background interest in the Dhamma, I'd be glad to hear it. Metta, Sarah --- On Fri, 23/1/09, Graham wrote: >I know that generally Buddhist teaching is opposed to fortune telling. I am aware of a scriptural reference to the role of a fortune teller being inappropriate for a monk, but are there any references in scripture regarding fortune telling and the laity? #95345 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Jan 24, 2009 10:00 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] For Sarah Procter Abbot/ Re:Why would you ask? sarahprocter... Dear Ven Aggacitto & Chuck, --- On Wed, 21/1/09, reverendaggacitto wrote: Hi Sarah! (i hope you don't mind if i call you Sarah?) .... S: It's what everyone else calls me! ... >The reason why i ask is this:As something of a wandering monk myself, i just thought it would be nice to make sure i had my story straight. Regarding The question regarding tobacco,i have read that else where and was wondering... ? It seems to be something some of the Thai monks have said apparently as a justification for smoking. .... S: I think there are lots of justifications around - we all tend to justify our akusala tendencies. With regard to the Vinaya, I'd think the safest thing would be to read the rules very carefully and if in doubt, take a conservative approach, whilst other monks may do whatever they so feel inclined to do, reaping the consequences accordingly. But I have to say, I'm not an expert on the Vinaya by any means. .... >If you don't mind please allow me to ask another question. The prohibition against some one joining the Sangha who does not have all of their limbs ( to be "complete in 32 parts")how did this as well as the other types of prohibitions (not owing debts etc.)actually come about? .... S: I think Chuck has answered and quoted on this, but I've not read it yet. (Thanks Chuck and always good to see your input. Are you in the States or Thailand these days?) In the Vinaya Pitaka, we can read about the background for the rules and the reasons for all the prohibitions. Sometimes they come about because of the bad gossip that spreads around the community if, for example, a monk joins the Sangha to avoid debts. .... >In case you are interested,i am now in Malaysia(balik Pulau)and am preparing to go in about two weeks time to India to better study my samadhi. May the Buddhas Deva and Angels bless and protect you. ... S: Thank you for your good wishes and may I wish you a wise and beneficial trip to India. Will you be in Bodh Gaya and the other holy places? We'll be wishing you a safe trip and return too. Metta & Respect, Sarah ======== #95346 From: "sprlrt" Date: Sun Jan 25, 2009 12:38 am Subject: Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. sprlrt Hi Robert E., > > Appreciate your explanations. The fact that samatha/samadhi/panna can > arise in various combinations, which portend different effects, and to > distinguish this from ordinary focussing which doesn't lead to a > higher understanding, is a good model to have. > Thanks for saying so, it's the Abhidhamma model :-) > > I take it that certain conditions are necessary to elevate the > attention from ordinary mundane focussing to one of the higher > combinations that have some beneficial effect. What kinds of > conditions lead from ordinary miccha samadhi to sati, the more > spiritual variety of samadhi or panna? > Tipitaka never mentions miccha samadhi, akusala dhammas, among the conditions for the arising of samma samadhi/samatha or satipatthana, kusala dhammas. The the proximate cause for the arising of sati given by Visuddhi magga is samma pariyatti. MN 43 gives two conditions for the arising of right view, panna, the voice of another, i.e. pariyatti, and wise attention/consideration, yoniso manasikara. Alberto #95347 From: "szmicio" Date: Sun Jan 25, 2009 1:11 am Subject: Re: nama rupa, again szmicio Dear Nina(Scotty, connie, Herman) thanks for your kind wishes and ecouragements. > > L: Dear Nina, can you start a new series about conditions? > > Can you rewiew all 24 paccayas separately? and give us examples how to > > applay it in daily life? > -------- > N: See http://www.zolag.co.uk/ free downloads, and you find my > Conditions. I prepared it now ready for printing, and it will be > printed end of year. Alan said that he has it ready now. > In this book I try to give examples of each condition. Perhaps you > looked already? L: Yeah I read almost a half of it now. The greatest reminder I have ever had. > N: If you want more, I can give additional examples. Any > condition in particular to start with? L: Can we start from the hetupaccaya? I find some chapters of your Conditions very intricate. Can you discuss it in brief and give more examples? My best wishes Lukas #95348 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 25, 2009 2:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Jhaana. Abhidhamma. nilovg Hi Howard, Op 25-jan-2009, om 0:24 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > I'm talking about intentional practice to cultivate the jhanas, Nina, > and I understand you to oppose that and all other intentional > actions, except > possibly text study. If I'm wrong in that, please correct me. I > will be > exceedingly pleased to be wrong. ------- N: First of all, you misunderstood my intentions. I am convinced that genuine jhaana is a high form of kusala and should be praised. But what I am concerned about is that people today underestimate the difficulty of the development of jhaana and the lifestyle that should go together with it and see it as a shortcut to nibbaana. In the Buddha's time people had less misunderstandings, they heard the Dhamma straight from him. But today people need help from the Abhidhamma and Commentaries. For the person who develops jhaana, his life should be absolutely and completely removed from sense pleasures. He should practically live as a monk, no fun, no entertainment at all. It is not sufficient to pratice just two weeks in a retreat. As to all the texts on right concentration you gave, as said before: the Buddha included all levels of concentration. There are other texts where the jhaanas are not included in right concentration. But, let us not repeat the same old arguments again. As to intentional practice: of course there is the cetasika volition or intention, cetanaa, but it does not belong to us, it is conditioned. Did we not talk about this before? Here a quote from Kom's post, it is a serious warning and also this post was reposted before: 7) The texts say this about Jhana: a) Have 10 obstacles (palibodha), versus just 1 for satipathana Extremely hard to maintain c) Most people that were mentioned to develop Jhana clearly see faults in the 5 sensualities. 8) Getting more controversial: a) The 10 obstacles mentioned are virtually impossible to overcome with a life of a householder who so much enjoy the 5 sensualities. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) Having just one strong desire will force you to start over from the beginning. How many Jatakas about Bodhisatta that you have seen where the bodhisatta lost all his Jhana attainment because he saw a beautiful woman? Are you married? Are you engaged in sexual relationship? Now, the probability of the attainment is becoming less and less. c) Do you see faults of the 5 sensualities? Are you willing to attenuate, very substantially, the seeking /exposures to the 5 sensualities in everyday life? Or is this a temporary thing? d) Many people are attracted to Buddhism because the mediation offers "peace" in dailylife. The peace they are after is unlikely to be the "right" peace, and is not the highest fruit. Peace in Buddhism at the minimum means kusala, with Jhana being higher kusala, with nibbana being the highest peace. 9) Really controversial: a) Nowadays, Many people who think they are developing Jhana are deluded. They can't tell the difference between the kusala states and states with attachment (lobha) and delusion (moha). Take anapanasati for example. Try observing your breath right now. If you are like me, the feeling of that observation will be neutral. Is that kusala or akusala? If you can't tell the difference, then you can't develop Jhana through Anapanasati. Now, try take something simpler, development through compassion (karuna). Pick your kid. When you do something for your kid when he is in pain, it can be either because of the attachment you have for your kid, or for the kusala compassion you have for him. Can you tell the difference? One gauge that was given is that if you equivalently treat other people (not the one you know or like) in the same situation, it is likely to be compassion. Without being able to tell the difference between kusala and akusala state, you can't develop this to the level of total absorption. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) Jhana attainment is not neccessary to attain the path. The tipitaka mentioned instances of Ariyans without Jhana attainments. c) People develop tranquil meditation believe that by doing this, the wisdom will become sharper when observing other realities. Some people think that panna at the patti-patti (practice) level can only become sharper because there are development of panna (about realities) at all levels, not because of the tranquility that one might attain via tranquil meditation. 10) A point I have heard, remembered, but haven't bought into: Developing tranquil meditation nowadays is only possible to the level of upacara (access concentration), but not Jhana (total absorption). I think my conclusion is that it only feels like that there seems to be a institutional discouragement only because: I) Priority of learning II) Hard to verify the genuine instances of Jhana development. III) Unclear if needed for path attainment.> kom (end quote) ------------- Nina. #95349 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 25, 2009 2:56 am Subject: Re:Q. [dsg] Re: Conditions. hetupaccaya. nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 25-jan-2009, om 10:11 heeft szmicio het volgende geschreven: > L: Can we start from the hetupaccaya? I find some chapters of your > Conditions very intricate. Can you discuss it in brief and give more > examples? ------ N: With pleasure, but I am only around for one week and then I go for two weeks to Thailand. Questions welcome in this week. As to hetu paccaya, I quote some snippets about daily life: Quote: --------- N: The akusala hetus and kusala hetus have many intensities, they can be strong or more subtle. Just after seeing visible object, there are javanacittas that are either kusala cittas or akusala cittas. When we are not engaged with generosity, siila or bhaavanaa, the javanacittas are akusala, with akusala hetus. Even after seeing, when it is not realized whether visible object is pleasant or unpleasant, when it is not defined yet, there are likely to be akusala javanacittas in that process. It is followed by a mind-door process which have the same types of javanacittas. This warns us that it is very urgent to develop more understanding of the different cittas that arise in a day. ------------- Quote: We would like to have kusala citta more often, but it cannot arise without the hetus which are alobha and adosa. Without these hetus we cannot perform any wholesome deed, we cannot speak with kindness and generosity. When amoha or paññå does not accompany the kusala citta, right understanding of realities cannot be developed. There is no self who can control hetu-paccaya, root-condition; akusala hetus and sobhana hetus are anattå. -------- N: This is very important, when there are no conditions for sobhana hetus, nobody in the world can make them arise. I may have strong aversion about unpleasant words of someone else, but then the danger and uselessness of akusala can be seen thanks to the Dhamma. This can be a condition to have metta and karuna instead of aversion. Here we see that listening and considering are really conditions for kusala citta and for understanding. ---------- Quote: When we clean the house or when we cook, do we realize by which hetus our bodily movements are conditioned? There can be awareness at such moments. We may write a letter to someone else with kindness, mettå, and then the rúpas which arise while we move our hands are produced by kusala citta. The accompanying sobhana hetus condition these rúpas by way of root-condition. However, there are likely to be akusala cittas arising alternately with kusala cittas. There may be right understanding of nåma and rúpa while we write and then the citta is accompanied by alobha, adosa and amoha. It is useful to read about the different conditions for phenomena to arise; we should consider their implications in daily life, so that we can understand what kind of life we are leading. Is it a life full of lobha, dosa and moha, or is right understanding being developed? --------- N: Yes, when writing a post kusala cittas or akusala cittas motivate bodily movements when touching the keyboard. So often we are forgetful. Moha again. Or lobha with conceit when we are pleased about 'my good post I write', or, 'I have more understanding than others'. Akusala is very intricate and it can be slight, such moments pass unnoticed. Nina. #95350 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 25, 2009 3:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] new member nilovg Dear Lawrence, Op 25-jan-2009, om 5:44 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > S: It's a shame you won't be arriving til March as Nina, we, Ann > and others will be in Bangkok for discussions with A.Sujin during > the first half of February and you'd be most welcome to join us. in > any case, if you're passing through Bangkok, you may like to attend > a discussion session with her. ------- N: Every Saturday there is an English discussion at the Foundation in Bgk with Kh Sujin, but she will be in India from end Febr. for two weeks. You may just be passing Bgk. Ask us any info how to get to the foundation if you would like to go there, or perhaps on your way back after your retreat. Nina. #95351 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 25, 2009 3:55 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sangiiti Sutta Threes (44-45) and commentary, part 3. nilovg Dear friends, sutta (45): RD's [3.45] Three faculties:--that of coming to know the unknown, that of knowing, that of perfected knowledge. (Tii.nindriyaani : ana~n~naata~n~nassaamiitindriya.m, a~n~nindriya.m, a~n~naataavindriya.m.) ------- N: There are three faculties which are lokuttara paññå. They control the purity of understanding at the moment of enlightenment and they condition the accompanying dhammas by way of conascent faculty- condition. The first one is the faculty of “I-shall-come-to-know-the- unknown”(an-aññåtaññassåmí’t’indriya) and this is the lokuttara paññå which accompanies the magga-citta (lokuttara kusala citta) of the sotåpanna who attains the first stage of enlightenment. There are four stages of enlightenment: the stage of the sotåpanna (streamwinner), of the once-returner, the non-returner and the arahat. The sotåpanna comes to know what was not known before, nibbåna. The second faculty which is lokuttara paññå is the “higher knowledge faculty” (aññindriya) which accompanies the phala-citta (fruition consciousness, lokuttara vipåkacitta) of the sotåpanna, the magga- citta and the phala-citta of the sakadågåmí (once-returner who has realised the second stage of enlightenment), and those of the anågåmí (non-returner, who has realised the third stage of enlightenment), and also the magga-citta of the arahat. The third faculty which is lokuttara paññå is the “faculty of him who knows” (aññåtåvindriya) arising with the phala-citta of the arahat. These three faculties which are lokuttara condition the lokuttara cittas and cetasikas they accompany by way of faculty-condition When the third lokuttara faculty arises there is nothing more to be realized, all defilements have been eradicated. The Co mentions these three faculties and briefly mentions when they arise. The subco states with regard to the third faculty arising at the moment of the fruition-consciousness (phala-citta) of the arahat, that his knowledge is perfected,that he his wisdom has been established with regard to the four Truths. N: There are different degrees of realizing the four Truths, and at each stage of enlightenment they are penetrated more deeply. At the arising of the phalacitta of the arahat, all that had to be done, the development of understanding, with regard to the noble Truths, has been done. ---------- N: Lokuttara paññå is conditioned by the sobhana cetasikas which have been accumulated from life to life. These cetasikas which are included in saòkhårakkhandha (the khandha of “formations”, consisting of all cetasikas except feeling and remembrance, saññå) are supporting one another and together they constitute the conditions for attaining enlightenment. It is encouraging to know that all good qualities such as generosity, patience and kindness, all the “perfections” developed together with right understanding, are never lost. They have to be developed life after life and thus they can constitute the conditions for the realisation of the four noble Truths later on. When enlightenment is attained the lokuttara magga- citta eradicates defilements and experiences nibbåna. -------------- Co: Ana~n~naata~n~nassaamiitindriyanti ito pubbe ana~n~naata.m avidita.m dhamma.m jaanissaamiiti pa.tipannassa uppanna.m indriya.m.... ----------- Nina. #95352 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jan 24, 2009 11:41 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. upasaka_howard Hi, Alberto (and Robert) - > I take it that certain conditions are necessary to elevate the > attention from ordinary mundane focussing to one of the higher > combinations that have some beneficial effect. What kinds of > conditions lead from ordinary miccha samadhi to sati, the more > spiritual variety of samadhi or panna? > Tipitaka never mentions miccha samadhi, akusala dhammas, among the conditions for the arising of samma samadhi/samatha or satipatthana, kusala dhammas. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: I believe you are mistaken in this. In the Upanisa Sutta you will find the following: Thus, monks, ignorance is the supporting condition for kamma formations, kamma formations are the supporting condition for consciousness, consciousness is the supporting condition for mentality-materiality, mentality-materiality is the supporting condition for the sixfold sense base, the sixfold sense base is the supporting condition for contact, contact is the supporting condition for feeling, feeling is the supporting condition for craving, craving is the supporting condition for clinging, clinging is the supporting condition for existence, existence is the supporting condition for birth, birth is the supporting condition for suffering, suffering is the supporting condition for faith, faith is the supporting condition for joy, joy is the supporting condition for rapture, rapture is the supporting condition for tranquillity, tranquillity is the supporting condition for happiness, happiness is the supporting condition for concentration, concentration is the supporting condition for the knowledge and vision of things as they really are, the knowledge and vision of things as they really are is the supporting condition for disenchantment, disenchantment is the supporting condition for dispassion, dispassion is the supporting condition for emancipation, and emancipation is the supporting condition for the knowledge of the destruction (of the cankers). Using -> to denote the relation of "being a supporting condition for," this states the following: ignorance -> kamma formations -> consciousness -> mentality-materiality -> sixfold sense base -> contact -> feeling -> craving -> clinging -> existence (or becoming) -> birth -> suffering -> faith (or trust/confidence) -> joy -> rapture -> tranquillity -> happiness -> concentration -> knowledge and vision -> disenchantment -> dispassion -> emancipation -> knowledge of destruction of taints Please compare the early conditions on the 1st two of these lines (akusala) with those later ones on the last two (kusala). ---------------------------------------------------- The the proximate cause for the arising of sati given by Visuddhi magga is samma pariyatti. MN 43 gives two conditions for the arising of right view, panna, the voice of another, i.e. pariyatti, and wise attention/consideration, yoniso manasikara. Alberto ================================= With metta, Howard (From the Avarana Sutta) #95353 From: "connie" Date: Sun Jan 25, 2009 4:50 am Subject: cornerstone nichiconn Dear Friends, Karunadasa continues: Now the definition of attha-pannatti as that which is made known by nama-pannatti gives rise to the question as to what its position is in relation to the real existents (dhammas). For if the real existents, too, can be made known (= attha-pannatti), on what basis are the two categories, the real and conceptual, to be distinguished? What should not be overlooked here is that according to its very definition attha-pannatti exists by virtue of its being conceived (parikappiyamana) and expressed (pannapiyamana). Hence it is incorrect to explain attha-pannatti as that which is conceptualizable and expressible, for its very existence stems from the act of being conceptualized and expressed. This rules out the possibility of its existing without being conceptualized and expressed. In the case of the dhammas or real existents the situation is quite different. While they can be made known by nama-pannatti, their existence is not dependent on their being known or conceptualized. Where such a real existent is made known by a nama-pannatti, the latter is called vijjamana-pannatti,135 because it represents something that exists in the real and ultimate sense (paramatthato). And the notion or concept (= attha-pannatti) corresponding to it is called tajja-pannatti, the verisimilar or appropriate concept.136 This does not mean that the real existent has transformed itself into a concept. It only means that a concept corresponding to it has been established. 135. SS v.68; MA I 55. 136. Ibid. connie #95354 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jan 25, 2009 12:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Jhaana. Abhidhamma. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 1/25/2009 5:33:13 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Op 25-jan-2009, om 0:24 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > I'm talking about intentional practice to cultivate the jhanas, Nina, > and I understand you to oppose that and all other intentional > actions, except > possibly text study. If I'm wrong in that, please correct me. I > will be > exceedingly pleased to be wrong. ------- N: First of all, you misunderstood my intentions. I am convinced that genuine jhaana is a high form of kusala and should be praised. But what I am concerned about is that people today underestimate the difficulty of the development of jhaana and the lifestyle that should go together with it and see it as a shortcut to nibbaana. --------------------------------------------------- Howard: There are no shortcuts to awakening, and it is not easy. But without practice it is impossible, and jhana is an important part of what is needed. Jhana, while difficult to attain, is attainable. That is a fact. But no one masters jhana merely by repeatedly studying texts. Meditation is required. People don't regularly enter and make use of the jhanas merely because of having read, considered, and discussed. There are meditation subjects provided by the Buddha, and regular, intentional practice is required. -------------------------------------------------- In the Buddha's time people had less misunderstandings, they heard the Dhamma straight from him. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: We have his teachings available to us, as he taught them. But they are to no avail if not heeded. ---------------------------------------------- But today people need help from the Abhidhamma and Commentaries. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: To each his/her own. ---------------------------------------------- For the person who develops jhaana, his life should be absolutely and completely removed from sense pleasures. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Ideally. But little in this world is ideal. Jhana attainment IS possible for others, without a question. But not for those who do not meditate. People don't slip into the jhanas at ball games and barbecues no matter how many years they've spent on DSG. Jhana attainment is possible only to those who regularly guard the senses, engage in mindful attention in daily life, and regularly meditate. There are no guarantees for them either, of course, but if one only takes useful action when guarantees are given, then that one will accomplish nothing. An attitude that something valuable should not be pursued because it is difficult to attain is the opposite of that which the Buddha encouraged. There are countless suttas in which the Buddha urged his followers to meditate, and they express urgency. I leave the rest of your post without comment, Nina. I have little interest in reading lots of material describing why one should not pursue what is good but difficult. You needn't meditate, Nina. It's fine, of course, if you choose to just study. It's a pleasant and wholesome activity. -------------------------------------------------- With metta, Howard (From the Avarana Sutta) #95355 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jan 25, 2009 12:14 am Subject: Clarification Re: [dsg] Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. upasaka_howard Hi again, Alberto (and Robert) - In a message dated 1/25/2009 7:41:23 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@... writes: Using -> to denote the relation of "being a supporting condition for," this states the following: ignorance -> kamma formations -> consciousness -> mentality-materiality -> sixfold sense base -> contact -> feeling -> craving -> clinging -> existence (or becoming) -> birth -> suffering -> faith (or trust/confidence) -> joy -> rapture -> tranquillity -> happiness -> concentration -> knowledge and vision -> disenchantment -> dispassion -> emancipation -> knowledge of destruction of taints Please compare the early conditions on the 1st two of these lines (akusala) with those later ones on the last two (kusala). ============================== The arrowed lines didn't transmit as printed. As printed, the first two lines of conditions should end with "suffering." With metta, Howard (Anonymous) #95356 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Sun Jan 25, 2009 5:59 am Subject: Re: What the Buddha said... to whom? abhidhammika Dear colette, Howard, Alberto, Robert K, Nina, Jon, Ken H, Sarah, and others How are you? colette, glad to hear from you, and thank you for letting me know that my post was capable of evoking an emotion like a little "jealousy". I thought that the style in my post might be too sterile and tedious to arouse any emotion on the part of the readers. Well, colette, you may still be in for more of this writing style for a while as I still need to interrogate Alberto, Jon, Ken H, Robert K and any so-called KS folk who may make or report incoherent statements regarding satipa.t.thaana. :-) Best wishes, Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "colette" wrote: Good Morning Suan Lu Zaw, Hey, I LIKE THAT POST YOU JUST GAVE TO ALBERTO! Maybe, even, a little "jealousy" rose in me when I read how well you slowed down the speed of the message and how you gave the parts such good descriptions, definitions. toodles, colette #95357 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 25, 2009 6:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Jhaana. Abhidhamma. nilovg Hi Howard, thanks for your post. I do not want to be repetitive, all these things were discussed many times. Nina. Op 25-jan-2009, om 14:08 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > There are no shortcuts to awakening, and it is not easy. But without > practice it is impossible, and jhana is an important part of what > is needed. #95358 From: "Scott" Date: Sun Jan 25, 2009 6:57 am Subject: Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner scottduncan2 Dear All, Continuing: The Path of Purification. "32. 'And while he was the royal naaga (serpent) Bhuuridatta, when he had undertaken the Uposatha precepts and was lying on top of an ant-hill, though he was [caught and] sprinkled with medicinal charms resembling fire that ushers the end of an aeon, and was put into a box and treated as a plaything throughout the whole of Jambudiipa, yet he had no trace of hate for that brahman, according as it he said: 'While being put into the coffer And being crushed down with his hand, I had no hate for Aalambaana Lest I should break my precept vow" (Cp. 85). Path of Purity. "As Bhuuridatta (Jaataka vi, 157f), king of the serpents he, having observed the sacred duties was lying down on an ant-hill. He did not get angry with the Brahmin when his whole body was sprinkled with a drug like the world destroying fire, or even when, thrown into a basket, he was carried about the whole of Jambudiipa and made to dance. As it has been said: - 'Though Aalapaana throw me in his crate And pound me with his hand most grievously, I show no wrath lest I my virtue wreck.'" Bhuuridatto naama naagaraajaa hutvaa uposatha"ngaani adhi.t.thaaya vammikamuddhani sayamaano kappu.t.thaanaggisadisena osadhena sakalasariire si~nciyamaanopi pe.laaya pakkhipitvaa sakalajambudiipe kii.laapiyamaanopi tasmi.m braahma.ne manopadosamattampi na akaasi. Yathaaha - 'Pe.laaya pakkhipantepi, maddantepi ca paa.ninaa; Alampaane na kuppaami, siilakha.n.dhabhayaa mamaa 'ti. (cariyaa. 2.16) Sincerely, Scott. #95359 From: "Scott" Date: Sun Jan 25, 2009 7:19 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner scottduncan2 Dear Herman, Regarding: H: "...Having heard the instruction, no-one is compelled to do anything. But some will equate human existence with the rocks passively rolling down the hill, and some will accept that their human existence is the correct condition for the making of directed effort in line with the given instruction." Scott: Thanks for the comments. I'll pass on repeating past discussions, if you don't mind. Sincerely, Scott. #95360 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 25, 2009 7:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: anapana. The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. nilovg Dear Rob Ep, Op 24-jan-2009, om 20:05 heeft Robert Epstein het volgende geschreven: > N: Under the mental objects, dhammas, included in the fourth > > application of mindfulness are also the hindrances, thus clinging > and > > other defilements. These are realities and when they appear they can > > be objects of insight that realizes them as just dhammas, > > conditioned, not mine. > > So, when one sees the dhammas as they actually are, in pure vipassana, > one sees that they are arising, maintaining and dissolving in short > order and sees directly that they are thus impermanent, unsatisfying > and do not constitute a self or part of self. ------- N: He sses this in the course of the development of insight that takes place in several stages, the first being: knowing the difference between the characteristic of nama and of rupa. If this is not thoroughly known, he cannot realize the arising and falling away of each of them separately. --------- > R: In seeing these > attributes of the dhamma directly, one releases clinging to them? > Would that be a fair description of how one would regard each arising > dhamma with pure insight? ------- N: The goal is detachment, but first clinging to wrong view of them has to be abandoned. At the moment of insight there is no clinging at the same time. -------- > > R: If so it seems that during the duration of the vipassana cittas, > the > action towards the dhammas would be one of continued releasing of the > conditioned dhammas and letting them go. ------ N: As insight grows there will be more detachment from nama and rupa. It leads to turning away from them and being inclined to nibbaana, the end of clinging. --------- > > R: One thing that is confusing is that the citta which is regarding > the > dhamma is itself separate from the dhamma. However, since the citta > too is an impermanent dhamma and is not itself the object of > vipassana, how does one ever gain insight into the citta that is doing > the observing? ------- N: This is very important. Also the citta with pa~n~naa that contemplates can and should be the object of insight, and that is in a following process. Citta does not know itself, but when it has just fallen away it can be known by another citta. If this is not the case, the citta that contemplates with insight would be taken for self. It has to be learned that not 'we ' study, not 'we' contemplate or develop satipatthaana. Otherwise it is all in vain. --------- > R: It seems that there is either "citta as a background > self" experiencing the dhamma, or else an infinite regress of cittas > that are doing the direct experiencing but are not themselves being > experienced. How does one get away from these "undisclosed, > unexperienced" cittas that are doing the experiencing of other namas > and rupas? -Or is the citta that is experiencing through pure insight transparent > to itself in some way? I am sure it cannot be the object of its own > insight? I can't find a way out of this problem as long as the citta > is separate from its object. ------ N: I do not know whether what I explained above is clear? --------- > > R: As another related question, when nibbana is experienced, is > there a > citta that experiences it? -------- N: No doubt. It is lokuttara citta. ------- > R: If so, what is the condition of that citta > such that it is able to experience nibbana while being a separate nama > in its own right? Since only nibbana is unconditioned, wouldn't the > citta that is experiencing nibbana be conditioned itself; and how can > a conditioned citta experience an unconditioned reality? ------- N: When pa~n~naa is developed to such degree that lokuttara pa~n~naa arises, it experiences the unconditioned element. It is lokuttara citta, loka being world, and uttara, further, higher, going beyond. Supramundane citta. The citta which sees or hears is of the sense-sphere, kaamaavacara, and this could not experience nibbaana, but lokuttara citta can. ------- > > R: I am also curious about what the nature of nibbana is as an object. > Since it is unconditioned, is it said to have any attributes, or does > it have no attributes, since there is nothing to arise or fall within > it? ------- N: There are descriptions of it as the ending of lobha, dosa and moha, the ending of defilements. But there are not many details described, because it cannot be fathomed, unless lokuttara citta experiences it. At that moment there is no doubt about what the object is. Nina. #95361 From: "sprlrt" Date: Sun Jan 25, 2009 7:23 am Subject: Clarification Re: [dsg] Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. sprlrt Hi Howard, > > Using -> to denote the relation of "being a supporting condition for," > this states the following: > > ignorance -> kamma formations -> consciousness -> mentality-materiality -> > sixfold sense base -> > contact -> feeling -> craving -> clinging -> existence (or becoming) -> > birth -> suffering -> > faith (or trust/confidence) -> joy -> rapture -> tranquillity -> happiness > -> concentration -> > knowledge and vision -> disenchantment -> dispassion -> emancipation -> > knowledge of destruction of taints > My reading of the this sutta is that first link of the dependent origination in reverse, dukkha, refers to the understanding, by panna, of the 4 NT, not to conventional suffering conditioning confidence (saddha) etc. Alberto #95362 From: "Scott" Date: Sun Jan 25, 2009 7:24 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner scottduncan2 Dear Howard, Regarding: H: "...Only figuratively speaking. It is important to note, i believe, that the conditions underlying what we call 'someone's activities' are not the same for all 'someones.' So, using 'normal speak,' for different people, different conditions, and hence different results...All speech is conventional and unavoidably off the mark as regards reality, IMO. Of course, some speech is less figurative than other speech. So long as the figurative elements are not read as literal, we're relatively safe." Scott: Thanks for the comments but I'll stop here since, in detecting differences of opinion, I can anticipate a repetition of past discussions. Sincerely, Scott. #95363 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jan 25, 2009 2:41 am Subject: Re: Clarification Re: [dsg] Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. upasaka_howard Hi, Alberto - In a message dated 1/25/2009 10:24:08 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, sprlrt@... writes: Hi Howard, > > Using -> to denote the relation of "being a supporting condition for," > this states the following: > > ignorance -> kamma formations -> consciousness -> mentality-materiality -> > sixfold sense base -> > contact -> feeling -> craving -> clinging -> existence (or becoming) -> > birth -> suffering -> > faith (or trust/confidence) -> joy -> rapture -> tranquillity -> happiness > -> concentration -> > knowledge and vision -> disenchantment -> dispassion -> emancipation -> > knowledge of destruction of taints > My reading of the this sutta is that first link of the dependent origination in reverse, dukkha, refers to the understanding, by panna, of the 4 NT, not to conventional suffering conditioning confidence (saddha) etc. -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: That is an unfathomable, absolutely incredible reading. I've never come across anything quite like it! And it is irrelevant to the point anyway, which still stands. ------------------------------------------------------- Alberto ======================== With metta, Howard (Anonymous) #95364 From: "robmoult" Date: Sun Jan 25, 2009 8:11 am Subject: Understanding Death and Beyond - Section 8 robmoult Hi All, Final section from my paper: ===== Past Life Regression ==================== One of the conditions that the Patthāna describes is "Natural Decisive Support Condition" (pakatūpanissaya); our current mental state is always being influenced by "strong" things which have happened in the past. Ways in which things in the past could be strong include: - They are recent: If I have had a bad day at work, I will react negatively to things when I get home - They are repetitive: Routine meditation has a long term impact on the mind and the effects of meditation can be measured medically even months after the meditation has stopped - They are "significant": The hermit Sumedha made a vow to be a future Buddha which impacted the Bodhisatta's mental states over many lifetimes Natural Decisive Support Condition can be used to explain habits, talents, accumulations and déjà vu as well as past life regression. Though normally, the past only influences the current mental state, it is possible that under some situations, such as hypnosis, that the past takes control of the current mental states and the person "re- experiences" things that have happened before, perhaps even in a previous lifetime. The recollection of past lives is another of the psychic powers described in the Sāmaññaphala Sutta (DN 2) and elsewhere. On the night of His enlightenment, the Buddha reviewed His past lives. Conscious reviewing of past lives is reserved for those with sufficient power of concentration (jhāna) whereas for the rest of us, the experiencing of past lives seems to be more of an uncontrolled event. Making use of this Understanding ================================ The understanding that the last thought conditions rebirth can help us in two ways: - The Burmese have a tradition that they maintain a "puñña diary", a diary of meritorious deeds that they have performed through their life. When a person is on their deathbed, somebody would read to them the entries in their puñña diary to remind them of what they have done to condition the mind for death. - The Appendix to this paper provides advice on how to help somebody who is critically ill [this appendix has already been posted] If we reflect on how our perceptions of reality are largely shaped by our own craving, conceit and wrong views, we can be less rigid and inflexible in our opinions. Recognizing that mental proliferation clouds judgement, we can more easily accept other's views when they differ from our own. We can take comfort that the Buddha did describe existence beyond the gross physical body and past life regression as possible so they are not in conflict with the Buddha's teachings. However, we should also remember that the Buddha talked about only being in control of these experiences during high levels of meditation (jhāna). Perhaps the most powerful learning we can take away from this discussion is that the current mental state is always being influenced by the past. This explains why meditation has such as powerful and long-lasting effect on the mind, even when you are not seated on a cushion. This also explains the power of regularly taking precepts. ===== Comments are welcome! Metta, Rob M :-) #95365 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Sun Jan 25, 2009 5:00 pm Subject: Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. epsteinrob Hi Alberto. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sprlrt" wrote: > The proximate cause for the arising of sati given by Visuddhi > magga is samma pariyatti. > MN 43 gives two conditions for the arising of right view, panna, the > voice of another, i.e. pariyatti, and wise attention/consideration, > yoniso manasikara. > > Alberto Thanks, Alberto, for that information. Best, Robert E. =================== #95366 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Sun Jan 25, 2009 7:32 pm Subject: Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. epsteinrob Hi Howard. (And Alberto.) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Alberto (and Robert) - Alberto: > Tipitaka never mentions miccha samadhi, akusala dhammas, among the > conditions for the arising of samma samadhi/samatha or satipatthana, > kusala dhammas. > -------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I believe you are mistaken in this. In the Upanisa Sutta you will find > the following: > > Thus, monks, ignorance is the supporting condition for kamma formations ---> ... ---> and emancipation is the supporting > condition for the knowledge of the destruction (of the cankers). ... > Please compare the early conditions on the 1st two of these lines > (akusala) with those later ones on the last two (kusala). > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard,this is a wonderfully concise and compelling post. I feel very privileged to be able to participate in a conversation where there is so much specific knowledge available to those conversing, and if it is a dispute, it is an interesting one, that is worth pursuing, although at times it may get tedious to those who disagree on the correct doctrine. The ability to go back to sutta and see the specific patterns that the Buddha has elicited is greatly helpful, and I find the one that you have cited here intriguing and illuminating, although I don't understand all the specific relations between the states and causes enunciated. But it is something I can copy and study. What is the point of all this? To direct ourselves to the path that is right for us, and that will lead to understanding and the end of suffering. And along the way, to help others when we can. I am always reminded of my ignorance here - not just the great ignorance that brought me to this plane of existence, but the specific ignorance of the teachings that others have managed to study, so I am given quite a boost by being around yourself and others who will pick out an appropriate sutta or other scripture and share it for the occasion at hand. Thanks. This particular sutta is a very helpful one, showing the cycle from ignorance to liberation, and I have been shown some other neat ones in recent weeks since returning here, including those on jhana that I didn't know were there. Best, Robert E. =========================== #95367 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Sun Jan 25, 2009 7:52 pm Subject: Re: Jhaana. Abhidhamma. epsteinrob Hi Nina! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: I am convinced that > genuine jhaana is a high form of kusala and should be praised. But > what I am concerned about is that people today underestimate the > difficulty of the development of jhaana and the lifestyle that should > go together with it and see it as a shortcut to nibbaana. > In the Buddha's time people had less misunderstandings, they heard > the Dhamma straight from him. But today people need help from the > Abhidhamma and Commentaries. > For the person who develops jhaana, his life should be absolutely and > completely removed from sense pleasures. He should practically live > as a monk, no fun, no entertainment at all. It is not sufficient to > pratice just two weeks in a retreat. After this and some other notes in this regard, you quote Kom's post that shows how difficult the conditions are for attaining jhana, and how nearly impossible to overcome the obstacles. I don't mind the warnings or the spelling out of the obstacles, and I think it is good to be aware of how difficult it is to reach a real state of absorption that represents a higher kusala state. However, I take some exception to the idea that since we cannot always know whether our current condition is one that is kusala or akusala based on attachment and ignorance, therefore practice can go in the entirely wrong direction and just take you further away from the path. I don't agree with this. It is my experience that the hardest thing to do in the world is to do any kind of consistent study, whether it is going through the suttas, the Abdhidhamma commentaries, or practicing meditation with the intention of allowing samatha and vipassana to come forth. However, if one manages to engage in any form of regular study or practice, things do happen, and they are not based on volition either right or wrong, but based on what naturally occurs when one practices. If one reads one biology text after another, it is very difficult to avoid learning something about biology. At times you will just collect facts, at times you will interpret them incorrectly and not see the correct picture of the way the organism functions, but at times you will have moments of insight and you will see how things fit together, just based on continuing to engage the study over and over again. Somerset Maugham, one of the better writers in the English language, sat down and wrote 4 hours a day every afternoon, whether he felt like it or not, and he did not expect everything he wrote to be good, neither did he care. He understood that if you have a basic knowledge of what you are trying to learn, and you practice it consistently, you are going to get better at it. In fact, by practicing regularly, without strain or undue expectation, you get used to doing it and it becomes ordinary, so you are not going to lurch and jump in this and that direction all the time; you are going to find the path that leads you through the practice just by doing it. Whether one's path is the "dry" path of study and observing in daily life, or the "full" path of studying sutta, commentaries and meditating with an understanding of samatha and vipassana that may arise and perhaps turn into jhana, one will still go step by step from where he is, to gain understanding as it arises, and will take the time to eventually gain better knowledge as he goes along. Yes, it is possible to use meditation incorrectly and strain at it, push for goals, try to attain altered states of consciousness by force and not pay attention to the reality of the moment, or mistake images and thoughts for realities, but this is not the way that most of us will practice if we have even a basic understanding of the path. And even if one is ignorant or unbalanced enough to practice in this way, breathing, observing and repeating will eventually calm most people down and bring them to the edge of basic samatha where they will have a chance at a clearer type of seeing into the moment. I believe in the consistency of repeated "Right Effort" and "Right Intention" and I think it works. Even in my own case, where I sometimes have some insight, but am disappointed in my ability to read sutta regularly or sit in meditation regularly, and which leads me to actually - by default really - do much of my noticing of realities in the course of everyday life, through a certain basic awareness that I've developed and which allows me to observe to some extent, the consistency of intention brings me to the door of what I intend to do and eventually I will go through that door, even if it doesn't happen as soon as I think I would like it to happen. I understand as you do that we depend on kamma and arising conditions to allow things to take place, and I am patient that it will take place eventually. I think the warnings about the possibility of delusion and wrong practice are good notes of caution, but they should not stop anyone from seeking their way of following the Buddha's Way, and if we are open we will all learn from each other's aspirations, and keep helping each other forward. Your knowledge can't help but rub off on others when they are around here, and likewise, the understanding and intentions of others that may be somewhat different should be allowed to stand in their own light as well, for what they are and may be. In each case, if something appears to be completely off-base, we should probably refer back to sutta for a judgment. That is the final base that we all use as our foundation, and if sutta directly contradicts something, we should pay attention. Best, Robert E. ============================ #95368 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Sun Jan 25, 2009 8:08 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: anapana. The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. epsteinrob Hi Nina, thank you for the answers to my questions. That is helpful information. I have condensed some of the material below with a few small comments interspersed. ---------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > ------- > N: The goal is detachment, but first clinging to wrong view of them > has to be abandoned. At the moment of insight there is no clinging at > the same time. > -------- > ------ > N: As insight grows there will be more detachment from nama and rupa. > It leads to turning away from them and being inclined to nibbaana, > the end of clinging. > > --------- Rob E. However, since the citta > > too is an impermanent dhamma and is not itself the object of > > vipassana, how does one ever gain insight into the citta that is doing > > the observing? > ------- > N: This is very important. Also the citta with pa~n~naa that > contemplates can and should be the object of insight, and that is in > a following process. Citta does not know itself, but when it has just > fallen away it can be known by another citta. If this is not the > case, the citta that contemplates with insight would be taken for > self. It has to be learned that not 'we ' study, not 'we' > contemplate or develop satipatthaana. Otherwise it is all in vain. > --------- > ------ > N: I do not know whether what I explained above is clear? > --------- Yes, thank you. > > R: As another related question, when nibbana is experienced, is > > there a > > citta that experiences it? > > -------- > N: No doubt. It is lokuttara citta. > ------- > N: When pa~n~naa is developed to such degree that lokuttara pa~n~naa > arises, it experiences the unconditioned element. It is lokuttara > citta, loka being world, and uttara, further, higher, going beyond. > Supramundane citta. > The citta which sees or hears is of the sense-sphere, kaamaavacara, > and this could not experience nibbaana, but lokuttara citta can. > ------- > ------- > N: There are descriptions of it as the ending of lobha, dosa and > moha, the ending of defilements. > But there are not many details described, because it cannot be > fathomed, unless lokuttara citta experiences it. At that moment there > is no doubt about what the object is. > > Nina. Thanks again. Best, Robert E. ==================== #95369 From: "Graham" Date: Wed Feb 25, 2009 11:11 am Subject: help please! grahamarussell Hi Sarah, In answer to your questions, I live in Sussex in the UK. My wife in a half Chinese Thai and whilst Buddhist, is very superstitious. These practices can become an obstacle to normal life! With metta, Graham >Hi Graham, > >Welcome here as well! <....> #95370 From: sîlânanda Date: Sun Jan 25, 2009 1:48 am Subject: Re: Dhamma Quotes & Guides to Meditation ... silananda_t Dear Dhammafarers, Here are the updated quotes & guides to assist you in your quest to seek and tread upon the Buddha's ancient Path: - Dhamma Quotes mahakaruna, ~upasaka silananda www.what-Buddha-taught.net #95371 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 25, 2009 11:29 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhaana. Abhidhamma. nilovg Dear Rob Ep, Thank you for your well written post. You really gave much thought to this subject. I would just like to add something. Op 26-jan-2009, om 4:52 heeft Robert Epstein het volgende geschreven: > And even > if one is ignorant or unbalanced enough to practice in this way, > breathing, observing and repeating will eventually calm most people > down and bring them to the edge of basic samatha where they will have > a chance at a clearer type of seeing into the moment. I believe in > the consistency of repeated "Right Effort" and "Right Intention" and I > think it works. ------- N: Right effort and right thinking (vitakka is sometimes translated as intention, but this is not so clear), are important, but they should go together with understanding. Also in samatha understanding is indispensable. Pa~n~naa must know the hindrances, not just by name, but when they appear and it must know in which way there can be no hindrances. That is the true calm of samatha: being temporarily removed from the hindrances. This is an element that I am missing when people talk about samatha and jhana and about mindfulness of breath. Thus, when speaking about people being calmed down, we should be very precise. When people are not sure whether the citta is kusala or akusala, they cannot develop true calm. But when they have right understanding calm can be developed. I agree that it is very difficult to know when the citta is kusala and when akusala, cittas are so fast. Only keen pa~n~naa can accomplish this. Therefore, let people not underestimate the development of samatha. it is not a matter of just trying to concentrate on one object. It is a matter of understanding, understanding of the level of samatha. In vipassana there is also concentration, but it is momentary, khanika. If one would concentrate on one object as is the case in samatha, the impermanence of realities could not be realized. In vipassana there is also calm, it accompanies the kusala citta that is aware of realities. The factor right concentration of the eightfold Path focusses on the nama or rupa that appears. -------- Nina. #95372 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jan 25, 2009 11:34 pm Subject: Shoulds - from Phil sarahprocter... All, Phil sent me the following off-list (a little while ago) and said I was welcome to f/w it to DSG. ******* Phil: Just have to comment (predictably) on this part: >>S: Like Phil C and James, I think they are generally out of place in the teachings. The teachings are not about rules, but about explanations of what occurs, how and when different wholesome and unwholesome kinds of consciousness arise and what has to be developed in order to lead out of the prison. Phil: I don't say no shoulds, I think there are lots and lots and lots of shoulds.The area I object to shoulds is when it comes to the deep teachings. So when A.S or Nina have "shoulds" about awareness of present realities, I object. There are lots of "shoulds" and "should nots" implicit in the Mangala sutta, for example, and I welcome them! However, when Lodewijk felt weary of the world and Nina told him to see the world in this or way that, not the world of people, that was imposing a "should", an imperative to insight. That kind of insight Nina mentionned in that post should arise on its own, not because we are told to have it by our loved ones or teachers etc. This is what I mean when I say you get comfort out of the deep teachings, I think there is a kind of cheapening in them implicit in posts where one is told to see the world in this or that way. I think this negates the pariyatti>patipati patient progression, there is a leaping ahead to try to see the world in an Ariyan manner, there are too many shoulds about insight either explicit or implicit in the A.S approach, I think. I think that this could end in our missing the boat through overreaching, because we all of us carry very heavy senses of "should" with respect to this one lifetime, it is in our social conditioning no matter what we say about aeons and aeons. Let's let the "shoulds" refer to areas dealing with social relationships, patterns of behaviour, actions in body and speech etc. I object to "shoulds" when it comes with the very, very refined way of seeing the world that is encouraged by A.S and Nina and I guess all A.S students. Thanks Sarah. You can post that if you want. Metta, Phil #95373 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jan 26, 2009 12:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] help please! sarahprocter... Hi Graham, --- On Thu, 26/2/09, Graham wrote: >In answer to your questions, I live in Sussex in the UK. .... S: I come from Sussex (UK) too!* ... My wife in a half Chinese Thai and whilst Buddhist, is very superstitious. These practices can become an obstacle to normal life! .... S: That explains your question. I think that such superstitious beliefs are very common in Buddhist countries. I think you just have a good test of patience, metta and compassion. We can only give gentle reminders if appropriate, otherwise just be understanding of the deep-held beliefs and cultural traditions. Thanks for letting us know. Metta, Sarah *My mother and many other family members still live in Sussex (Arundel and Chichester area), but I've been living overseas (Hong Kong mostly) for a long time. Whereabout in Sx do you live? =========== #95374 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 26, 2009 1:42 am Subject: [dsg] Survey, Ch 35, no 10. nilovg Dear friends, Q. : If a way of life does not conform to a person’s nature, should he force himself to act against his nature? S. : People should consider cause and effect in the right way. A great number of monks did not live in a forest. The Buddha did not force people to develop satipatthåna in a forest, in a specific room, or in any other place where they did not have to go for the performing of their tasks. It is true that the Buddha praised the forest life, that he praised a secluded life or whatever else was a condition for the non-arising of lobha, dosa and moha. However, he did not force anybody, he did not establish rules for the development of paññå. The Buddha clearly knew the different accumulations of people and thus he preached the Dhamma in such a way that his followers would listen and develop right understanding naturally. Thus, they would be able to eliminate defilements. He taught people the development of satipatthåna in their daily lives, in conformity with their status, were they monk or layfollower. When awareness arises and one begins to consider and study the characteristics of nåma and rúpa so that paññå becomes more accomplished, one’s inclinations can gradually be changed. People will be less overcome by lobha, dosa and moha on account of the objects experienced through the sense-doors and through the mind- door. However, accumulated inclinations cannot be changed on the spur of the moment. Some people think that a meditation center should not be repainted, because that would be a condition for lobha. However, when they return to their homes after they have stayed in the center, they have their houses repainted, they plant trees and look after their flowers, thus, they follow their accumulated inclinations. ********** Nina #95375 From: Herman Hofman Date: Mon Jan 26, 2009 3:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Jhaana. Abhidhamma. egberdina Hi Nina, 2009/1/25 Nina van Gorkom : > Hi Howard, > Op 25-jan-2009, om 0:24 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > > In the Buddha's time people had less misunderstandings > they heard > the Dhamma straight from him. They would have heard things like the following: Monks, those who are new, not long gone-forth, only recently come to this doctrine & discipline, should be roused, encouraged, & exhorted by you to develop the four frames of reference [in this way]: 'Come, friends, remain focused on the body in & of itself — being ardent, alert, unified, clear-minded, concentrated, & single-minded for knowledge of the body as it actually is. Remain focused on feelings in & of themselves... focused on the mind in & of itself... focused on mental qualities in & of themselves — being ardent, alert, unified, clear-minded, concentrated, & single-minded for knowledge of mental qualities as they actually are.' SN47 4 > But today people need help from the > Abhidhamma and Commentaries. The Abhidhamma and commentaries in the hands of a householder is insanity gone mad. But even they are not enough help, are they? Your voluminous writings show that you believe that people today need your help as well. > As to intentional practice: of course there is the cetasika volition > or intention, cetanaa, but it does not belong to us, it is > conditioned. Did we not talk about this before? And that is your help for others? Again: Monks, those who are new, not long gone-forth, only recently come to this doctrine & discipline, should be roused, encouraged, & exhorted by you to develop the four frames of reference [in this way]: 'Come, friends, remain focused on the body in & of itself — being ardent, alert, unified, clear-minded, concentrated, & single-minded for knowledge of the body as it actually is. Remain focused on feelings in & of themselves... focused on the mind in & of itself... focused on mental qualities in & of themselves — being ardent, alert, unified, clear-minded, concentrated, & single-minded for knowledge of mental qualities as they actually are.' Cheers Herman #95376 From: "connie" Date: Mon Jan 26, 2009 3:33 am Subject: cornerstone nichiconn Dear Friends, continuing with Karunadasa's "The Dhamma Theory": If the doctrine of dhammas led to its ancillary theory of pannatti as discussed above, both in turn led to another development, i.e. the distinction drawn between two kinds of truth as sammuti-sacca (conventional truth) and paramattha-sacca (absolute truth). Although this distinction is an Abhidhammic innovation it is not completely dissociated from the early Buddhist teachings. For the antecedent trends that led to its formulation can be traced to the early Buddhist scriptures themselves. One such instance is the distinction drawn in the Anguttara Nikaya between nitattha and neyyattha.137 The former refers to those statements which have their meaning "drawn out" (nita-attha), i.e. to be taken as they stand, as explicit and definitive statements. The latter refers to those statements which require their meaning "to be drawn out" (neyya-attha). The distinction alluded to here may be understood in a broad way to mean the difference between the direct and the indirect meaning. The distinction is so important that to overlook it is to misrepresent the teachings of the Buddha: "Whoever declares a discourse with a meaning already drawn out as a discourse with a meaning to be drawn out and (conversely) whoever declares a discourse with a meaning to be drawn out as a discourse with a meaning already drawn out, such a one makes a false statement with regard to the Blessed One." 138 It seems very likely that this distinction between nitattha and neyyattha has provided a basis for the emergence of the subsequent doctrine of double truth. In point of fact, the commentary to the Anguttara Nikaya seeks to establish a correspondence between the original sutta-passage and the Theravada version of the two kinds of truth.139 137. A II 60. 138. Ibid. 139. A II 118. ... to be continued, connie #95377 From: "Scott" Date: Mon Jan 26, 2009 4:14 am Subject: Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner scottduncan2 Dear All, Continuing: The Path of Purification. "And while he was the royal naaga Campeyya he let no hate spring up in his mind while he was being cruelly treated by a snake charmer, according as it was said: 'While I was living in the Law Observing the Uposatha A snake charmer took me away To play with at the royal gate Whatever hue he might conceive, Blue and yellow, and red as well, So in accordance with his thought I would become what he wished; I would turn dry land into water, And water into land likewise. Now had I given way to wrath Had I relaxed mind-mastery I should have let my virtue lapse; And one who lets his virtue lapse Cannot attain the highest goal' (Cp. 85). Path of Purity. "Again as Chameyya (Jaataka iv, 434), the cobra-king, on being ill-treated by the snakke-charmer, he was not offended. As it had been said: - 'Then me, the while I kept the holy vows According to the Law, a juggler caught And at the royal gate made sport with me. Whate'er the colour present in his mind, Whether 'twas indigo, yellow, or red, According to the shifting of his thoughts, Even of hue resembling I became. 'I who could make the dry land water, make The water dry land, should I let my wrath Arise, could in an instant blast to ashes - If I, my heart controlled, give up, I fall Away from virtue, and by such a fall The highest good is ne'er accomplished.'" Campeyyopi naagaraajaa hutvaa ahitu.n.dikena vihe.thiyamaano manopadosamattampi nuppaadesi. Yathaaha â€" 'Tadaapi ma.m dhammacaari.m, upavutthauposatha.m; Ahitu.n.diko gahetvaana, raajadvaaramhi kii.lati. 'Ya.m so va.n.na.m cintayati, niila.m piita.m va lohita.m; Tassa cittaanuvattanto, homi cintitasannibho. 'Thala.m kareyya.m udaka.m, udakampi thala.m kare; Yadiha.m tassa kuppeyya.m, kha.nena chaarika.m kare. 'Yadi cittavasii hessa.m, parihaayissaami siilato; Siilena parihiinassa, uttamattho na sijjhatii 'ti. (cariyaa. 2.21-24) Sincerely, Scott. #95378 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Mon Jan 26, 2009 11:29 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhaana. Abhidhamma. epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > In vipassana there is also concentration, but it is momentary, > khanika. If one would concentrate on one object as is the case in > samatha, the impermanence of realities could not be realized. In > vipassana there is also calm, it accompanies the kusala citta that is > aware of realities. The factor right concentration of the eightfold > Path focusses on the nama or rupa that appears. This is interesting. Do you have any handy quotes from sutta or commentaries regarding the panna that allows for true samatha, and the way in which vipassana understands momentary objects? Thanks, Robert E. ============================= #95379 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Mon Jan 26, 2009 12:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Jhaana. Abhidhamma. epsteinrob Hi Herman. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Herman Hofman wrote: > 'Come, friends, remain focused on the body in & of itself � being > ardent, alert, unified, clear-minded, concentrated, & single-minded > for knowledge of the body as it actually is. Remain focused on > feelings in & of themselves... focused on the mind in & of itself... > focused on mental qualities in & of themselves � being ardent, alert, > unified, clear-minded, concentrated, & single-minded for knowledge of > mental qualities as they actually are.' > > > Cheers > > > Herman That is very clear, Herman. What sutta is it from? Thanks, Robert =========================== #95380 From: "Alex" Date: Mon Jan 26, 2009 12:09 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhaana. Abhidhamma. truth_aerator > "Robert Epstein" wrote: > > Hi Nina. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom > wrote: > > > In vipassana there is also concentration, but it is momentary, > > khanika. If one would concentrate on one object as is the case >in > > samatha, the impermanence of realities could not be realized. In > > vipassana there is also calm, it accompanies the kusala citta >that is > > aware of realities. The factor right concentration of the >eightfold > > Path focusses on the nama or rupa that appears. > > This is interesting. Do you have any handy quotes from sutta or > commentaries regarding the panna that allows for true samatha, and >the way in which vipassana understands momentary objects? > > Thanks, > Robert E. > > ============================= Dear RobertE, Please check out sutta DN#2 and please tell us what it says about "Insight Knowledge" (vipassana) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.02.0.than.html With metta, Alex #95381 From: Herman Hofman Date: Mon Jan 26, 2009 12:24 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Jhaana. Abhidhamma. egberdina Hi RobE, 2009/1/27 Robert Epstein : > Hi Herman. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Herman Hofman > wrote: > >> 'Come, friends, remain focused on the body in & of itself � being >> ardent, alert, unified, clear-minded, concentrated, & single-minded >> for knowledge of the body as it actually is. Remain focused on >> feelings in & of themselves... focused on the mind in & of itself... >> focused on mental qualities in & of themselves � being ardent, alert, >> unified, clear-minded, concentrated, & single-minded for knowledge of >> mental qualities as they actually are.' >> >> >> Cheers >> >> >> Herman > > That is very clear, Herman. What sutta is it from? > It is from SN 47 . 4 Cheers Herman #95382 From: Herman Hofman Date: Mon Jan 26, 2009 12:27 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner egberdina Hi Scott, 2009/1/26 Scott : > Dear All, > > Continuing: > > The Path of Purification. > > "And while he was the royal naaga Campeyya he let no hate spring up in > his mind while he was being cruelly treated by a snake charmer, > according as it was said: > I notice that much of the recent material in this thread is from the Jataka tales. Do you consider them canonical works? Cheers Herman #95383 From: Herman Hofman Date: Mon Jan 26, 2009 12:42 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Question re study egberdina Hi connie and Nina, 2009/1/24 Nina van Gorkom : > Hi Herman, > Op 23-jan-2009, om 12:58 heeft Herman Hofman het volgende geschreven: > >> Is the following in the Vis, and if so, is it an acceptable >> translation? >> >> Ten impediments to meditation (palibodha) >> >> a dwelling, family and gain, >> a class, and building too, as fifth, >> and travel, kin, affliction, books, >> and supernormal powers: ten. > ------ > N: This is fully explained in the Vis in the chapter on > concentration: from Ch III, 29. > They are impediments to samatha, not to vipassana, except the tenth > which is an impediment to vipassana, not to samatha (III, 56). We can > see how many conditions have to be fulfilled for the development of > samatha. Thanks both for your comments. Yes, it does become clear to anyone who tries that clinging to the world prevents samatha. Wouldn't it be funny if the Vis was written by someone who had never attained the jhanas because he always had his head in a book? Cheers Herman #95384 From: "Alex" Date: Mon Jan 26, 2009 1:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Question re study truth_aerator Dear Herman and all, > Herman Hofman wrote: >> > Yes, it does become clear to anyone who tries that clinging to the > world prevents samatha. Wouldn't it be funny if the Vis was written >by someone who had never attained the jhanas because he always had >his head in a book? > > Cheers > > > Herman I've heard that Buddhaghosa at the end of VsM said something that he hopes that the merit obtained from writing VsM would make him reborn in heaven (tusita if I remember correctly) from which he will see the next Buddha Metteya and attain Awakening then. 1st) Does the venerable state that he has not attain Awakening (which level?) 2nd) Since the rebirth is in Kamaloka it appears that the Venerable Buddhaghosa is telling us that he hasn't achieved Jhana. 3rd) Why not rely on suttas instead? With only the best wishes, Alex #95385 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Jan 26, 2009 2:42 pm Subject: Re: What the Buddha said... to whom? kenhowardau Hi Suan, Colette and all, ---------- <. . .> S: > Well, colette, you may still be in for more of this writing style for a while as I still need to interrogate Alberto, Jon, Ken H, Robert K and any so-called KS folk who may make or report incoherent statements regarding satipa.t.thaana. :-) ----------- I am sure everyone is looking forward to whatever you have in mind. In the meantime, may I briefly recap the conversations you and I have had over the years? As I recall, you have agreed that no satipatthana meditation techniques are to be found in the Pali texts. You have learnt everything you know about formal vipassana meditation from the Burmese sayadaws. We have agreed that certain techniques for the development of *samatha* are to be found in the texts, and they include giving away all of one's worldly belongings, going to a quiet place, making a kasina, sitting with a straight back, and so on. There is some difference of opinion among the "no-controllers" as to whether or not those activities can be called "formal meditation." However, it is a minor point about language - not about control over dhammas. All of the "no-controllers" agree that there is no efficacy (no inherent characteristic, good or bad, right or wrong) in any concept. And that includes any concept of meditation - samatha or vipassana! Ken H #95386 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jan 26, 2009 3:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Hearing Dhamma sarahprocter... Dear Scott & all, Thanks for the good quote from the comy to Ittivuttaka. --- On Fri, 16/1/09, Scott wrote: >I liked (*...* by me): "...Rather, the Lord, being one constantly concentrated and one by nature neither forgetful nor confused, utters a statement, as soon as this has been presented to him by way of his discrimination concerning inspiration backed up by his omniscience, conforming with the dispositions of those capable of being guided in their own natural language, making manifest, with a voice enticing as the call of the Indian cuckoo and as though he were raining the Deathless-rain upon those hearing them, the four ariyan truths, which constitute the essence of things worthy of being heard, which are unsurpassable where the matter of hearing is concerned, *and which constitute an elixir for the ear-base by way of clear and purified sounds*, not shared with others, that simultaneously arise along with the ingredients of merit collected over time without limit; there is therein no slip-up, not even one the size of a mere hairtip, so whence the opportunity for that badly stated? (pp. 47-48)" Scott: 'Clear and purified sounds' - not words - 'an elixir for the ear-base.' Cool. .... S: Great kusala vipaka to hear. Of course, it would depend on each person's kamma whether such sounds were heard and on panna, whether there was an appreciation and understanding of the meaning or just lobha (or even dosa in subsequent mind-door processes as there was for some). On only a flimsily related topic, this morning we left a nearby island resort early this morning for Jon to get back to Suva (the capital) for work. I've never heard such beautiful harmonious singing as one hears in Fiji and this morning was no exception as any staff around (including gardener, arriving, taxi driver and kitchen staff) all sang a beautiful local farewell song. Again, kusala vipaka and then, in this case, lots of lobha but also appreciation of the kindness and friendship shown to us. Of course, there were also opportunities for awareness of sound or other realities too - just like now, as back in Suva, I hear some non-harmonious drilling noises as I type.... Metta, Sarah ======= #95387 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Mon Jan 26, 2009 3:36 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner sarahprocter... Hi James & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Sarah: Even now, metta can only be to those around us, those we > meet, those who are living. ... > James: I would like to address the two ideas you make in the above > statement "metta can only be to those around us, those we meet" > and "those who are living"...both of which I believe are incorrect. I will turn to two suttas for support. <...> > "...They may address you with a mind of good-will or with inner > hate. In any event, you should train yourselves: 'Our minds will be > unaffected and we will say no evil words. We will remain sympathetic > to that person's welfare, with a mind of good will, and with no > inner hate. .... S: Is this not concerning metta towards a living being, a person in this case, whom we have encountered? .... >We will keep pervading him with an awareness imbued with > good will and, beginning with him, we will keep pervading the all- > encompassing world with an awareness imbued with good will ¡X > abundant, expansive, immeasurable, free from hostility, free from > ill will.' That's how you should train yourselves. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.021x.than.html .... S: If there is no metta towards those we have contact with, those we associate with or tend to think about, how can metta grow to become "all-encompassing", i.e. to the level of jhana? .... > James: I want to point out some important things about this quote. > First, it states "you should train yourselves" so we are talking > about beginners. So, even for beginnners, they should radiate metta > toward enemies or those who speak with ill-will. .... S: Yes, I think it's addressing people like you and me. When others speak harshly or disturb us, can there be sympathy for their welfare, can there be good-will then and there? For example, here on DSG, we may feel annoyed about what someone has written, but of course the real problem is such annoyance and lack of metta or understanding rather than what the other person has said. ... >Secondly, it > states "and, beginning with him, we will keep pervading the all- > encompassing world with an awareness imbued with good will- > abundant, expansive, immeasurable". It is not enough to develop > good will just toward those we meet; the good will toward those we > meet must be expanded to all being everywhere- even those we will > never meet. ... S: Yes, good point. It's never enough. Metta has to grow. However, my point was, I believe, that if there is not the beginning of metta now as we speak or write or associate with others AND if the characteristic of metta is not understood, then it cannot be developed. ... > > Okay, the second issue, radiating metta toward a dead person. The > Vism. says not to do that but I disagree. ... S: Thanks - you raised good points on this too which Nina has already responded to, so I'll leave it. I appreciated your reflections, however. Metta, Sarah ======== #95388 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Mon Jan 26, 2009 3:49 pm Subject: Re: Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner sarahprocter... Hi Scott, Connie & Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott" wrote: > S: "And now I have one for Scott & all: The recent Metta extracts > about ignoring the ill behaviours and reflecting on the good ones and > so on reminds me of the MN sutta along the same lines. I've posted > from it before. Which sutta is it?" > > Scott: I've gotten stuck on MN 21 (i.e. I've been reading it over a > few times). There might be others but this says as much as you note > above. Did I find it? .... S: I'll have to check when I'm back with texts. If I'm not mistaken, MN 21 is the one about Kali the maid-servant and about metta when being cut limb by limb. The one I have in mind is closer to the Vism text you quoted. Later.... Thank you for the other AN quotes Connie & Nina too. Metta, Sarah ========== #95389 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Mon Jan 26, 2009 3:57 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Greetings sarahprocter... Hi Dave K, Thanks for telling us more about your background. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "dkotschessa" wrote: > I am currently living in Delaware, having spent most of my life in > ennsylvania. I've probably been seriously interested in Dhamma for > about 5 years or so, and less seriously interested for maybe 10. 5 > Years ago marks when I first started meditating in ernest, doing > retreats at Zen centers and such. > > After awhile of becoming a bit weary of some of the attitudes I > found in some zen circles I took an interest in Theravada, though I > still attend meditations at a local zen center. I have visited the > Bhavana Society a few times and met Bhante Gunaratana, though I've > never done a formal retreat there. I do not have any kind of formal > teacher, so most of my learning has occured over the internet > dicussions and books. ... S: I think that many here are in the same position - i.e "learning over the internet discussions and books." ... > > Most of my learning comes from listening to audio, and most recently > I have been going through Bhikkhu Bodhi's course on the Majjhima > Nikaya. I had planned to hold off on studying Abhidhamma until I > was through with the Majjhima Nikaya and a few other Sutta > collections, but it was actually a post from Chris on E-sangha that > gave some compelling reasons to study Abhidhamma and the Suttas > concurrently. It's already been of enourmous value to me. ... S: I personally think it's very helpful to study Abhidhamma and Suttas together and I'm glad Chris encouraged you! With regard to audio, you may like to try listening to some of the edited recordings of discussions with A.Sujin which we've made available on: www.dhammastudygroup.org. (not to be confused with the DSG homepage). Scroll down to the audio section below the archived post numbers and pls let me know how you find them. Just listening to a short bit at a time can be very helpful for Abhidhamma/Dhamma study I find. .... > > I'm also doing a study of the Vinaya as well, going through > Thanissaro Bhikkhu's "Monastic Code of Discipline." ... S: That's also good to hear. Pls share anything of interest or any comments/questions from any of the Tipitaka or your listening. Metta, Sarah ======== #95390 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Mon Jan 26, 2009 4:04 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Greetings sarahprocter... Hi Dave K, You wrote the following in #95109 and I thought it was very good. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "dkotschessa" wrote: > If you're hoping for something like a nondualistic philosophy then I > don't think you'll find much satisfaction in Abhidhamma. As I think > was stated elsewhere, the idea of paramattha dhammas or "ultimate > realities" means in the sense that they have been divided up so much > they can not be divided up any more. As far as I can tell, that's > about as dualistic as it gets. > > So, there's the object (color, for example) and there's the eye- > consciousness which experiences that object. It arises and falls > away just as quickly. If you're hearing and seeing something at the > same time then you'd be experiencing an alternation of ear > consiousness and eye consiousness, rapidly back and forth. But > really it's all six senses, in a rapid series, going by so fast that > they paint our picture of reality. At least that's my understanding. ... S: I'd say, definitely on the right track. Actually, eye- consciousness falls away quicker than the visible object (17 times quicker), but that's a minor quibble. Metta, Sarah ======== #95391 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Mon Jan 26, 2009 4:18 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner sarahprocter... Hi James, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > S: Why not now whilst we write to each other? > > James: So, are you suggesting that as you wrote this to me, Sarah, > you felt for me boundless love as a mother for her only child? And > be honest! If you are saying that this is what we should do, then > you should be able to do that. ... S: Lol! Many different moments and cittas including those with metta, but also those with other less worthy attributes! My comment was a reminder that metta and other wholesome states are not activities to be engaged in at another time but can arise now when there is an understanding of the benefit and when there are accumulations for such. All very anatta. ... >As I posted before from a sutta, the > Buddha taught that we should not feel ill-will toward those we meet > but we should also extend that good will toward all beings > everywhere. A person simply cannot develop that type of boundless > metta with just one person as the object. The suttas state this, > the commentaries state this, the Vism. states this, Sarah, where is > your support for your ideas? ... S: Metta begins with one person, one insect or a group of sentient beings that we 'associate with' now. By beginning to have metta more and more during the day, whilst teaching at school, taking the bus, going to the store, writing home and so on, it 'accumulates', it develops when it is understood distinctly from attachment and other states which may be mistaken for being 'worthy' in some way. ... >> S: for me? If 'we put metta off' > > until a specific time, it may or may not arise by conditions. > > James: Metta is to be developed in everyday situations and through > meditation on the Brahma-viharas. Just trying to be "nice to other > people" in everyday situations is not going to develop metta because > anger will easily arise when one is provoked. The metta will not be > strong enough. The Buddha also spoke about this: > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.021x.than.html ... S: Just 'trying to be nice' is unlikely to be metta, although there may be some kindness and consideration involved. It may just be attachment to being a nice person to. In the end, what's important is not 'to be a nice person' as such, but to develop an understanding with detachment of whatever is conditioned and to know it as not- self. With the growth of understanding, metta will also develop in a purer way, not being taken for 'my metta'. ... > James: I never said that it could not arise during the day. Metta > comes in various degrees and because of various predilections. But > the point is to develop a metta so stong, so big, so vast, that > nothing could shake it. This is what the Buddha taught: > > "Suppose that a man were to come along carrying a hoe & a basket, > saying, 'I will make this great earth be without earth.' He would > dig here & there, scatter soil here & there, spit here & there, > urinate here & there, saying, 'Be without earth. Be without earth.' > Now, what do you think ¡X would he make this great earth be without > earth?" > > "No, lord. Why is that? Because this great earth is deep & enormous. > It can't easily be made to be without earth. The man would reap only > a share of weariness & disappointment." > > "In the same way, monks, there are these five aspects of speech by > which others may address you: timely or untimely, true or false, > affectionate or harsh, beneficial or unbeneficial, with a mind of > good-will or with inner hate. Others may address you in a timely way > or an untimely way. They may address you with what is true or what > is false. They may address you in an affectionate way or a harsh > way. They may address you in a beneficial way or an unbeneficial > way. They may address you with a mind of good-will or with inner > hate. .... S: A great sutta - yes, however addressed, whether with praise or blame, there can be a growth of metta and sympathy and a growth of understanding. This is different from wanting to be a loving person with boundless metta. .... >In any event, you should train yourselves: 'Our minds will be > unaffected and we will say no evil words. We will remain sympathetic > to that person's welfare, with a mind of good will, and with no > inner hate. We will keep pervading him with an awareness imbued with > good will and, beginning with him, we will keep pervading the all- > encompassing world with an awareness imbued with good will equal to > the great earth ¡X abundant, expansive, immeasurable, free from > hostility, free from ill will.' That's how you should train > yourselves. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.021x.than.html .... S: As discussed, metta has to grow - with understanding of its quality when it arises. Thanks again for the good quote and your helpful reflections. Metta, Sarah ========== #95392 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Mon Jan 26, 2009 7:23 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner sarahprocter... Hi Rob E, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Epstein" wrote: > > S: What we take for Self, rightly or wrongly. Whether or not there > is any > > understanding at any level about the 5 khandhas, still it is oneself > that > > we find most dear with or without wrong view. Even for a sotapanna, > it is > > 'his' or 'her' rupas, vedanas, sannas, sankharas and vinnanas that are > > held most dear. > >R: Hi Sarah! > I agree with the main thrust of this, and I don't think we need to > "hold ourselves any dearer" than we already do. That would be feeding > the delusory sense of self and the attachment to this self. However, > if one were to send this kind of love to oneself it would not be metta > at all, it would be false self-love such as the attachment to self is > already based upon. ... S: Yes, so far, so good....:) ... > > So my proposal to include oneself in the thoughts of metta is not > based on the idea of holding oneself more dear, but of pacifying the > sufferings within one's own kandhas, which is in the opposite > direction of self-love. ... S: I think such 'pacifying' only comes about through the development of understanding with detachment. If one thinks about oneself or one's khandhas and how one would like them to be free of dukkha, it's bound to be clinging and attachment to having them be like this, I think. .... > It is possible that in some cases, the negative regard that we hold > ourselves in only thickens the delusion of self, and needs some kind > of relief in order to progress. Self-abnegation and self-loathing, > for instance, can be subtle forms of attachment to self by which we > make the sense of having a self more real. I think there must be a > solution to this problem of "negative attachment" that we hold > ourselves in, just another device often practiced by > spiritually-minded people which on a subtle level reinstates the sense > that their self is real. ... S: I agree, that all such aversion to self is bound up with attachment, with clinging to a self being such and such a way. James wrote a great post on this once (addressed to children). Again, I think the only 'real' or deep solution is the understanding of dhammas as dhammas, not belonging to 'me' or anyone else. ... >I just think it's something to look out > for, like false humility, which spiritually minded folk also fall > into, while covering a great degree of suppressed pride in self for > being so spiritual. ... S: Yes, lots of 'traps' to fall into with ignorance. That's why there has to be the development of right understanding with sacca (truthfulness) to see dhammas for what they are - like the light in the dim room illuminating the objects. ... > To say, as some of your quotes implied, that I attempt to "love others > and hold them in esteem in the same way that I love myself," in other > words to realize that other beings are as dear as I am, seems like a > fine compromise. ... S: I think I was referring to the appreciation that others would like to be happy and free of suffering, just as we would. I don't think I was suggesting we should have the same love (i.e attachment) to others that we have for ourselves. That would just be more lobha all round. ... >It acknowledges that we do hold others dear without > making a big deal out of it, but goes beyond it to hold others dear as > well. .... S: Again I think we have to differentiate between holding others dear with attachment vs metta. Only right understanding and awareness can know which is occurring when it arises. Metta, Sarah ===== #95393 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Mon Jan 26, 2009 7:30 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. sarahprocter... Hi Howard & Rob E, On sensations.... I think you put the following well, Howard: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > Howard: > In English, 'feeling' and 'sensation' are often synonymous, but that is > not so with the Pali. A bodily sensation is a rupa, and it may be "tasted" > (i.e., felt) as pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral. What is translated as > 'feeling' is the word 'vedana' which names the mental operation of affective > "tasting," i.e., the knowing or "feeling" of an object, often a body-door rupa, as > pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral. Vedana is a mental operation just as are > vi~n~nana and sati and sa~n~na. It is not that which is felt, but in English, > 'feeling' may refer to that. (So, the problem lies in the translation of > 'vedana'. If it didn't sound so pedantic, 'basic affective sensing' would better > capture the meaning of 'vedana'.) > -------------------------------------------- ... S: And to take it a step further, often when we refer to a bodily sensation, it's actually an 'amalgam' of different rupas. So the only rupas actually experienced through the body are those of temperature, hardness/softness and motion, regardless of whether they are called 'sensation' or anything else. I've appreciated your discussions with Rob E and others. Metta, Sarah ========= #95394 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Mon Jan 26, 2009 8:04 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. sarahprocter... Hi TG, Now.... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@... wrote: > S: But can such practice, such insight ever be at anytime other than *now*? > Is there ever another time? If so what? > .................................................................... > > > TG: Is there ever any other time than "now"? Sariputta is recorded as > attaining enlightenment while fanning the Buddha and listening to a discourse in > MN. Do you think he was "counting dhammas" at the time? ;-) .... S: Has anyone suggested counting dhammas? ;-) You haven't answered the question regarding now. For Sariputta, the enlightenment occurred at that moment, at that 'now'. For us, now is at this moment. All other moments have gone or not yet come. So if at this moment, the reality is thinking - thinking about Sariputta, this post or any other topic, the thinking is what can be known. ... ===== > S: I think the entire sutta deals with the development of satipatthana > itself *now*, according to our different lifestyles and inclinations/S: I think t > > ............................................................. > > > TG: Including analysis of the bodily parts, charnel grounds contemplation, > and analysis of "the external"? I'm not sure how that fits into your *now.* > How is one mindful of "bile" in the *now* you speak of? Seems like > 'concept' to me. ... S: Again, whilst reflecting on bodily parts, charnel grounds or anything else, the thinking and the various mental states arising, such as calm or aversion, are real and can be known, if such reflection is NOW! It's no different in this sense from when we're reflecting on any other object or pursuing any kind of activity - whether sitting at the computer, washing dishes or watching TV. Satipatthana can develop, knowing and being aware of the dhamma NOW!. Metta, Sarah ====== #95395 From: Herman Hofman Date: Mon Jan 26, 2009 8:27 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. egberdina Hi Sarah, 2009/1/27 sarahprocterabbott : > Hi TG, > ... > S: Again, whilst reflecting on bodily parts, charnel grounds or > anything else, the thinking and the various mental states arising, > such as calm or aversion, are real and can be known, if such > reflection is NOW! If one is satisfied with a loose version of NOW, then yes. But if one goes to the extremes of alleged "individual" cittas, then NO. For instance, the physics of seeing makes it clear that seeing at the eye is two dimensional. However, what we see is a three-dimensional world. There is no discursive thought that accompanies this mental creation, one cannot become aware of the 3-D world being thought. Also, reflection is never on the immediate present. Cheers Herman #95396 From: "ptaus1" Date: Mon Jan 26, 2009 8:38 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Beginner abhidhamma questions ptaus1 Dear Nina, thanks for that, it's making a bit more sense now. A question on ADL chapter 6: "As regards akusala kamma-patha through the mind performed with dosa-mula-citta, this is the intention to hurt or harm someone else." So, this means that just thinking or wishing to harm somebody is already akusala kamma-patha, even if there is no physical harming? How about when playing computer games? Most are based on harming opponents, so even though no actual beings are harmed, there is still the intention to harm. So, that would be akusala kamma-patha as well? Thanks pt #95397 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Mon Jan 26, 2009 8:54 pm Subject: Re: Jhaana. Abhidhamma. epsteinrob Hi Herman! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Herman Hofman wrote: > > It is from SN 47 . 4 All the translations I see on line start with 47.6. Any ideas where I can find it? Best, Robert ========================= #95398 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jan 26, 2009 4:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and Robert) - In a message dated 1/26/2009 10:30:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Hi Howard & Rob E, On sensations.... I think you put the following well, Howard: --------------------------------------- Howard: Thanks, Sarah. :-) -------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > Howard: > In English, 'feeling' and 'sensation' are often synonymous, but that is > not so with the Pali. A bodily sensation is a rupa, and it may be "tasted" > (i.e., felt) as pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral. What is translated as > 'feeling' is the word 'vedana' which names the mental operation of affective > "tasting," i.e., the knowing or "feeling" of an object, often a body-door rupa, as > pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral. Vedana is a mental operation just as are > vi~n~nana and sati and sa~n~na. It is not that which is felt, but in English, > 'feeling' may refer to that. (So, the problem lies in the translation of > 'vedana'. If it didn't sound so pedantic, 'basic affective sensing' would better > capture the meaning of 'vedana'.) > -------------------------------------------- ... S: And to take it a step further, often when we refer to a bodily sensation, it's actually an 'amalgam' of different rupas. -------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, often. ----------------------------------------- So the only rupas actually experienced through the body are those of temperature, hardness/softness and motion, regardless of whether they are called 'sensation' or anything else. I've appreciated your discussions with Rob E and others. ---------------------------------------- Howard: :-) ------------------------------------- Metta, Sarah ===================== With metta, Howard (Anonymous) #95399 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Mon Jan 26, 2009 9:27 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner epsteinrob Hi Sarah! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarahprocterabbott" wrote: > > Hi Rob E, Rob E: > > So my proposal to include oneself in the thoughts of metta is not > > based on the idea of holding oneself more dear, but of pacifying the > > sufferings within one's own kandhas, which is in the opposite > > direction of self-love. > ... > S: I think such 'pacifying' only comes about through the development > of understanding with detachment. If one thinks about oneself or > one's khandhas and how one would like them to be free of dukkha, it's > bound to be clinging and attachment to having them be like this, I > think. Just thought I'd give it a try. ;) Best, Robert E. ===================== =========== * Howard's signature blocks: == A change in anything is a change in everything (Anonymous) == Entrances to holiness are everywhere. The possibility of ascent is all the time, even at unlikely times and through unlikely places. There is no place without the Presence. (From Mishkan T'filah, the new Reform prayerbook) == He who does not find core or substance in any of the realms of being, like flowers which are vainly sought in fig trees that bear none - such a seeker gives up the here and the beyond, just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin. (From the Uraga Sutta) == Suppose there were a river, flowing down from the mountains "going far, its current swift, carrying everything with it" and a man would open channels leading away from it on both sides, so that the current in the middle of the river would be dispersed, diffused, & dissipated; it wouldn't go far, its current wouldn't be swift, and it wouldn't carry everything with it. In the same way, when a seeker has not abandoned these five obstacles, hindrances that overwhelm awareness and weaken discernment, i.e., sensual desire, ill will, sloth & torpor, restlessness & anxiety, and sceptical doubt, when s/he is without strength and too weak in discernment to understand what is for one's own benefit, to understand what is for the benefit of others, to understand what is for the benefit of both, then to realize a superior human state, a truly noble distinction in knowledge & vision: that is impossible. (From the Avarana Sutta) == Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream. (From the Diamond Sutra) == When knowing what is to be known, he doesn't construe an [object as] known. He doesn't construe an unknown. He doesn't construe an [object] to-be-known. He doesn't construe a knower. (The Buddha, speaking of himself in the Kalakarama Sutta) == See how the world together with the devas has self-conceit for what is not-self. Enclosed by mind-and-body it imagines, 'This is real.' Whatever they imagine it to be, it is quite different from that. It is unreal, of a false nature and perishable. Nibbana, not false in nature, that the Noble Ones know as true. Indeed, by the penetration of the true, they are completely stilled and realize final deliverance. (From the Dvayatanupassana Sutta) == Just as when a person whose turban or head was on fire would put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, undivided mindfulness, & alertness to put out the fire on his turban or head; in the same way, the monk should put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, undivided mindfulness, & alertness for the abandoning of those very same evil, unskillful qualities. (From the Sacitta Sutta) == "Rouse yourself! Sit up! What good is there in sleeping? For those afflicted by disease (suffering), struck by the arrow (craving), what sleep is there? "Rouse yourself! Sit up! Resolutely train yourself to attain peace. Do not let the king of death, seeing you are careless, lead you astray and dominate you. "Go beyond this clinging, to which devas and men are attached, and (the pleasures) they seek. Do not waste your opportunity. When the opportunity has passed they sorrow when consigned to Niraya-hell. "Negligence is a taint, and so is the (greater) negligence growing from it. By earnestness and understanding withdraw the arrow (of sensual passions)." (From the Utthana Sutta) ==