#95400 From: Herman Hofman Date: Mon Jan 26, 2009 9:50 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhaana. Abhidhamma. egberdina Hi Robert, 2009/1/27 Robert Epstein : > Hi Herman! > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Herman Hofman > wrote: >> > >> It is from SN 47 . 4 > > All the translations I see on line start with 47.6. Any ideas where I > can find it? > Sure! http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/wings/part2.html#part2-a There's a whole bunch of suttas in that article that are not separately included on ATO. The particular one we are discussing is founds under § 34. Cheers Herman #95401 From: Herman Hofman Date: Mon Jan 26, 2009 9:55 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner egberdina Hi Sarah, 2009/1/27 sarahprocterabbott : > Hi Rob E, > ... > S: I think such 'pacifying' only comes about through the development > of understanding with detachment. If one thinks about oneself or > one's khandhas and how one would like them to be free of dukkha, it's > bound to be clinging and attachment to having them be like this, I > think. > .... Wow, what a broad, indiscriminate brush you use in your thinking :-) I wouldn't mind if you could outline your conception of samvega. Cheers Herman #95402 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon Jan 26, 2009 9:59 pm Subject: thesis on Sujin Boriharnwanaket rjkjp1 For those that read thai I upoloaded a thesis about Sujin (by a monk at Mahachulalonkorm Uni.) here is the abstract in English: http://www.mcu.ac.th/En/thesisdetails.php?thesis=254813 »Ñ­­Òà»ç¹áʧÊÇèÒ§ã¹âÅ¡ Thesis Title : A Study of Ajarn Sujin Boriharnwanaket's Role in Propagation of Buddha Dhamma Researcher : Phra Thananart Nithipanno (Ponlagan) Degree : Master of Arts ( Dhamma Communication ) Thesis Supervisory Committee : Phramaha Tuon Siridhammo Pali V, M.A. (Philosophy), Ph.D. Associate Professor Kitima Surasonti B.A., M.A. Mr. Suthep Phromlert Pali IX, B.A., M.A. Date of Graduation : March 10, 2005 ABSTRACT The purpose of this thesis is to study the role in Dhamma study, support and the propagation method, in the communication contents of Buddha taught by Miss. (Ajarn) Sujin Boriharnwanaket. Through the consistency emphatic study with the principle of Dhamma elucidatory pattern and principle of Buddhist communication, the qualitative research has been performed. The study result has shown that Ajarn Sujin Boriharnwanaket is one of the experience Buddha Dhamma lecturers for more than 40 years. She has herself full fill with the understanding of the Tipitaka and the commentaries, especially Abhidhamma that expound to the condition of Ultimate Reality. These are the development in her Buddhist attitude to faithfulness. Such attitude is support her loving interest in the propagate Buddhism on status a female devotee. Therefore, the public studiousness and propagation of Buddha Dhamma are expanding into the Buddhism interest for many years. And that may confirm the responsible of the Buddhist elucidation which should not only be just the function for the monk only, but also for the layman as well. One who accumulates understanding of the Buddha taught may be able to express the kindness in helping the development of a mindfulness and wisdom for every attitude audience. Qualifications in both worldly and scripture Tipitaka knowledge, through attitudes as above-mentioned, provide Ajarn Sujin's Dhamma elucidation skill. Her verbal skills as well as the use of Thai and English language, well spoken and theme words follow by the law of the dhamma, are often found. She can generally Dhamma communicate to succinct and simple understanding. For nonverbal skills, she is so gentle that has respectfully mild personality, self-controlled, vocalization exactly tone of voice to persuade through the certainty understand basic of audience. Situation the laity, Dhamma communication by Ajarn Sujin is appropriate with status, social system and Thai culture at present. That contents of Dhamma is associated insight development and setting up of mindfulness, which are the gist of the practice in Buddhism, by continue to develop understanding. Most important, each level of Buddha Dhamma is able to conduct in daily life. Because of nothing less Dhamma, therefore, a little or much Dhamma understanding of each other that is interested. Ajarn Sujin has explained Dhamma with variously pattern. The orderly pattern is mostly beginning with the interpersonal communication, whole development skill, attitude, knowledge, audience understanding, social system and culture. Accompany with the Wright understanding in the contents of Buddha taught, as a tool to interpersonal communication, her answering to the in doubt questions always in such order. Following the principle of Buddhist communication as her lecture performed, conversation through propagation of Buddha Dhamma are expel tough the country and abroad, namely United kingdom, Sri Lanka, Cambodia, India, Australia and United States of America. Besides the radio broadcast frequencies for the mass media communication to expansion Wright understanding of Buddha Dhamma, the Internet website and the on line telephone discussion program are being used. The propagated through number of other media channels are also in order, and these may included the publicized materials, cassette tape and compact disk, so that the audience expedient can suitable essential respond. After comparison with Principle of communication and Buddhist communication method, it is found that Ajarn Sujin Boriharnwanaket's role is the same opinion with all composition of communication. While the basic concept, the purpose, the personality in sender status, the contents of Dhamma, the used of medias, the knowledge and understanding about Buddha Dhamma are concluded to become the aware of audience ready. Overall conceptual framework is correct and suitable role for followers to perform as a Buddhist communication to study and support the propagation of Buddha taught are revealed. #95403 From: TGrand458@... Date: Mon Jan 26, 2009 5:22 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. TGrand458@... Hi Sarah In a message dated 1/26/2009 9:05:28 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > S: But can such practice, such insight ever be at anytime other than *now*? > Is there ever another time? If so what? .................................................. TG: The more I read this "now" thesis, the more it sounds like a plain old ordinary (and somewhat banal) description of the present. Of course the present is "now." I'll concede that the "present" isn't "was" or "will be." Never though it was...I mean "now" I think -- never thought it was. ;-) "Now" I am going to sign off and I "now" hope that you have a nice day. I will "now" hit the "send now" button. Hummmm "send now"? Jesus, E-Mail is enlightened! ;-) Opps. They also say "send later." We all know you can't "send later," you can only "send now"! Must be Mahayanists or something writing these programs eh? TG OUT #95404 From: "sprlrt" Date: Mon Jan 26, 2009 11:55 pm Subject: Clarification Re: [dsg] Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. sprlrt Hi Howard, > > My reading of the this sutta is that first link of the dependent > origination in reverse, dukkha, refers to the understanding, by panna, > of the 4 NT, not to conventional suffering conditioning confidence > (saddha) etc. > -------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > That is an unfathomable, absolutely incredible reading. I've never come > across anything quite like it! > Your interpretation of dukkha as conventional suffering (sorrow, pain etc.) condtioning confidence in the Triple Gem just doesn't make any sense, neither common nor with what is clearly stated in all three pitaka, Vinaya, Sutta (about the Middle Path, avoiding pain-based practices) and in Abhidhamma as well (about dhukka vedana arising either with kaya akusala vipaka, the result of past akusala kamma, or akusala kamma itself, 2 dosa-mula citta arising with domanassa vedana only), and dosa is the opposite of metta. >And it is irrelevant to the point anyway, > which still stands. > ------------------------------------------------------- I don't see how. Alberto #95405 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 27, 2009 1:06 am Subject: Re: Q.[dsg] Beginner abhidhamma questions nilovg Dear Pt, your questions are very useful for everybody. Op 27-jan-2009, om 5:38 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > A question on ADL chapter 6: > "As regards akusala kamma-patha through the mind performed with > dosa-mula-citta, this is the intention to hurt or harm someone else." > > So, this means that just thinking or wishing to harm somebody is > already akusala kamma-patha, even if there is no physical harming? -------- N: It has to be strong, making a real plan to harm or shoot someone else. Not merely thinking with dosa. A person may really think out a plan to kill someone else, and he has the intention to kill. -------- > > Pt: How about when playing computer games? Most are based on harming > opponents, so even though no actual beings are harmed, there is still > the intention to harm. So, that would be akusala kamma-patha as well? ------- N: No, this is not akusala kamma patha. The game is likely to be played with lobha-muulacittas or dosa-muulacittas, for example, when one loses the game. One does not really want to harm soneone else, it is just a game. As you say, no actual beings will be harmed. ****** Nina. #95406 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 27, 2009 2:09 am Subject: [dsg] Survey, Ch 35, no 11. nilovg Dear friends, The Buddha taught true Dhamma (sacca Dhamma), so that people could have right understanding of cause and effect with regard to all realities. He taught the development of satipatthåna so that paññå could become accomplished to the degree of eradicating latent tendencies. Latent tendencies have been accumulated from past lives on to the present life in the cittas which arise and fall away in an uninterrupted succession. Ignorance (avijjå), not knowing the characteristics of nåma and rúpa, and wrong view, ditthi, which takes nåma and rúpa for self, are latent tendencies. One takes all kinds of realities for self, no matter whether one sees, hears, tastes, smells, experiences tangible object, thinks, feels happy or unhappy. The only way leading to the eradication of latent tendencies is the development of satipatthåna. This is awareness and investigation of the realities which appear so that they can be understood more clearly. Understanding is developed stage by stage. When paññå is developed to the degree of the first stage of insight, “the defining of nåma and rúpa” (nåma-rúpa-pariccheda-ñåna), paññå can clearly comprehend the difference between the characteristic of nåma and of rúpa appearing at that moment. Paññå cannot be developed in trying to make dukkha arise by sitting, lying down, standing or walking for a long time, so that one has painful feeling. Paññå can only be developed by considering and studying with awareness nåma and rúpa as they naturally appear through the senses and through the mind-door. They arise because of their own conditions, no matter where one is. ******** Nina. #95407 From: Herman Hofman Date: Tue Jan 27, 2009 2:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Question re study egberdina Hi Alex, 2009/1/27 Alex : > Dear Herman and all, > > > > 1st) Does the venerable state that he has not attain Awakening (which > level?) > > 2nd) Since the rebirth is in Kamaloka it appears that the Venerable > Buddhaghosa is telling us that he hasn't achieved Jhana. > > > 3rd) Why not rely on suttas instead? > Yes, indeed. > > > With only the best wishes, I appreciate that. Cheers Herman #95408 From: Herman Hofman Date: Tue Jan 27, 2009 2:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] thesis on Sujin Boriharnwanaket egberdina Hi RobK, 2009/1/27 rjkjp1 : > For those that read thai I upoloaded a thesis about Sujin (by a monk > at Mahachulalonkorm Uni.) > here is the abstract in English: > I was a little bit embarrassed to read this. I would not willingly participate in a group that approaches the teachings of the Buddha by way of their special guru. Cheers Herman #95409 From: Herman Hofman Date: Tue Jan 27, 2009 2:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What the Buddha said... to whom? egberdina Hi KenH, 2009/1/27 kenhowardau : > Hi Suan, Colette and all, >All of the "no-controllers" agree that there is no efficacy > (no inherent characteristic, good or bad, right or wrong) in any > concept. It think that to this point we are all singing the same tune. Now, all that remains for those who assert it, is to demonstrate their great white hope, ultimate reality. Fire away. Cheers Herman #95410 From: Herman Hofman Date: Tue Jan 27, 2009 3:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Greetings egberdina Hi Sarah, 2009/1/27 sarahprocterabbott : > Hi Dave K, > >> So, there's the object (color, for example) and there's the eye- >> consciousness which experiences that object. It arises and falls >> away just as quickly. If you're hearing and seeing something at > the >> same time then you'd be experiencing an alternation of ear >> consiousness and eye consiousness, rapidly back and forth. But >> really it's all six senses, in a rapid series, going by so fast > that >> they paint our picture of reality. At least that's my > understanding. > ... > S: I'd say, definitely on the right track. On the right track to where, Sarah? Memorising an archaic theory of mind? > Actually, eye- > consciousness falls away quicker than the visible object (17 times > quicker), but that's a minor quibble. > Does it? And why do you use the word actually? Cheers Herman #95411 From: "Scott" Date: Tue Jan 27, 2009 4:24 am Subject: Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner scottduncan2 Dear All, Continuing: The Path of Purification. "34. And while he was the royal naaga Sa"nkhapaata, while he was being carried along on a carrying pole by the sixteen village boys after they had wounded him in eight places with sharp spears and inserted thorn creepers into the wounds' orifices, and while, after threading a strong rope through his nose, they were causing him great agony by dragging him along bumping his body on the surface of the ground, though he was capable of turning those village boys to cinders with a mere glance, yet he did not even show the least trace of hate on opening his eyes, according as it is said: 'On the fourteenth and fifteenth too, Aajaara, I regularly kept the Holy Day, Until there came those sixteen village boys Bearing a rope and a stout spear as well. The hunters cleft my nose, and through the slit They passed a rope and dragged me off like that. But though I felt such poignant agony, I let no hate disturb my Holy Day' (Jaa.v,90)." Path of Purity. "Again, as Sa"nkhapaala, the cobra-king, (Jaataka, v, 161; tr. v, 90) when sixteen ruffians had pierced him in eight places with shapr spears, inserted thorny creepers through the nose, and were carrying him with a pole, he experienced great pain from his body being dragged along the surface of the ground. Though he had the power to turn the ruffians, the whole lot of them into ashes, were he but to look at them in anger, he opening his eyes did not show the slightest sign of offense. As it has been said: - 'Two times each moon I kept a holy day; 'Twas then, Aalaara, that there crossed by way Twice eight lewd fellows, bearing in their hand A rope and knotted noose of finest strand. The ruffians pierced my nose, and through the slit Passing the cord, dragged me along by it. Such pain I had to bear - ah ! cruel fate - For holding holy days inviolate." Sa"nkhapaalanaagaraajaa hutvaa tikhi.naahi sattiihi a.t.thasu .thaanesu ovijjhitvaa pahaaramukhehi saka"ná¹­akaa lataayo pavesetvaa naasaaya da.lha.m rajju.m pakkhipitvaa so.lasahi bhojaputtehi kaajenaadaaya vayhamaano dhara.niitale gha.msiyamaanasariiro mahanta.m dukkha.m paccanubhonto kujjhitvaa olokitamatteneva sabbe bhojaputte bhasma.m kaatu.m samatthopi samaano cakkhu.m ummiiletvaa padu.t.thaakaaramattampi na akaasi. Yathaaha - 'Caatuddasi.m pa~ncadasi~nca.laara, Uposatha.m niccamupaavasaami; Athaagamu.m so.lasa bhojaputtaa, Rajju.m gahetvaana da.lha~nca paasa.m. 'Bhetvaana naasa.m atikassa rajju.m, Nayi.msu ma.m samparigayha luddaa; Etaadisa.m dukkhamaha.m titikkha.m, Uposatha.m appa.tikopayanto 'ti. (jaa. 2.17.180-181) Sincerely, Scott. #95412 From: "Scott" Date: Tue Jan 27, 2009 5:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hearing Dhamma scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, Regarding: S: Great kusala vipaka to hear. Of course, it would depend on each person's kamma whether such sounds were heard and on panna, whether there was an appreciation and understanding of the meaning or just lobha (or even dosa in subsequent mind-door processes as there was for some)...I've never heard such beautiful harmonious singing as one hears in Fiji...Again, kusala vipaka and then...I hear some non-harmonious drilling noises as I type...." Scott: More on the linguistic intricacies of what is heard from Paramatthajotika (The Illustrator of Meaning - Commentary on the Minor Readings), part I, p. 114 (*...* by me): "Here it may be asked: 'Then why is the accusative case, eka.m samaya.m ('on one occasion'), used here instead of the locative case is is done in the Abhidhamma, namely, 'yasmi.m samaye kaamaavacara.m' ('on an occasion on which a sensual-desire sphere [cognizance]...' Dhs. 1) and in Sutta passages other than this, namely, 'yasmi.m samaye bhikkhave bhikkhu vivice 'eva kamehi' (Bhikkhus, on an occasion which a bhikkhu, quite secluded from sensual desires...': cf. A. ii. 214), and instead of the instrumental case as is done in the Vinaya, namely, 'Tena samayena Buddha Bhaagavaa' ('With this as the occasion the Enlightened One, the Blessed One,...': Vin. iii, 1)? It may be said that the meaning implied here is different from what it is in those passages. *For there, that is, in the Abhhidhamma passage and in the Sutta passages other than this [firstly, the locative] conveys the meaning of container (adhikara.na) and the meaning of characterization (qualification) of one substantive by [another] substantive. Now the 'container' is the time counted [as occasion] and the mass counted as occasion [being the 'container'] of the ideas beginning with contact stated there [in the first paragraph of the Dhammasanga.nii]; and also the substantive essence of those ideas is characterized (qualified) by the substantive essence of the [type of] moment, event, and root-cause, called [their] 'occasion'*..." Scott: I like this 'container' and 'contained' aspect in the above. The 'time' of the expression 'contains' the mass of ideas 'beginning with contact'... Sincerely, Scott. #95413 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 27, 2009 6:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] thesis on Sujin Boriharnwanaket nilovg Dear Rob K and Herman, Op 27-jan-2009, om 11:48 heeft Herman Hofman het volgende geschreven: > 2009/1/27 rjkjp1 : > > For those that read thai I upoloaded a thesis about Sujin (by a monk > > at Mahachulalonkorm Uni.) > > here is the abstract in English: > > > > I was a little bit embarrassed to read this. I would not willingly > participate in a group that approaches the teachings of the Buddha by > way of their special guru. ------- N: I prefer to discuss Dhamma and not persons, but here is a specific reason. Robert, I find this good idea to show that a thesis was written on Kh Sujin by a learned monk at the Mahachulalonkorn. There are so many misunderstandings these days, people thinking that Kh Sujin is anti Jhaana. This is only so because they do not carefully consider what she is saying: caution and a warning against micchaa samaadhi, wrong concentration, people take for jhaana. The symptoms of wrong jhaana may look like real jhaana, they can be a consequence of former practice, even in a former life. When someone thinks that he feels such happiness, such great bliss, it shows that caution is needed. Jhaana is detachment, detachment from sense pleasures. But it is also a good sign that more and more people take an interest in her weekly sessions with questions and answers at the Foundation. Last year I heard that there is an increasing amount of newcomers to the Foundation every week. Kh Sujin does not see herself as a guru, and she warns against blindly following a person. It is Dhamma, not the person that matters she will always say. Everybody has to develop his own understanding. Nina. #95414 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 27, 2009 6:36 am Subject: [dsg] Sangiiti Sutta Threes (46-48) and commentary, part 1. nilovg Dear friends, sutta (46): Walshe DN 33.1.10(46) 'Three eyes: the fleshly eye, the divine eye, *1049 the eye of wisdom *1050 (ma'msa-cakkhu, dibba-cakkhu, pa~n~naa-cakkhu). Tii.ni cakkhuuni - ma.msacakkhu, dibbacakkhu, pa~n~naacakkhu. ------- As to the eye of the flesh, ma.msacakkhu, the Co states that this is the eyesense. N: The eyesense arises in a group of ruupas: the four great Elements, colour, smell, flavour, nutritive essense , which are the eight inseparable rupas, and also life faculty; together with eyesense they are a decad, the eyedecad, produced by kamma. We read in the ‘Expositor’ (II, p. 403) that the eye of the flesh is twofold: as compound organ and as sentient organ. As compound organ it is the physical base for the eyesense, and it consists of rupas produced by the four factors of kamma, citta, temperature and nutrition. We read in the Vis Ch XIV, 47: There is what is called 'the eye' in the world. That looks like a blue lotus petal and is surrounded by black eyelashes and varied with dark and light circles. The "eye" [sensitivity as meant] here is to be found in the place in the middle of the black circle surrounded by the white circle in that [feature of the] eye with its accessories where there appears the image of the bodies of those who stand in front of it. It pervades the eye's seven layers like oil sprinkled on seven layers of cotton. It is assisted by the four primary elements whose [respective] functions are upholding, cohering, maturing, and moving, as a warrior prince is by the four nurses whose functions are holding, bathing, dressing, and fanning. It is consolidatd by temperature, consciousness, and nutriment; it is maintained by life; it is furnished with colour, odour, flavour, etc. ; it is the size of a mere louse's head; and it duly serves both as physical basis and as door for eye-consciousness, and the rest [of the consciousness of the cognitive series]. 48. And this is said by the General of the Dhamma: 'The sensitivity with which he sees a visible object is small and it is subtle too, no bigger than a louse's head'. --------- N: As to the divine eye, dibbacakkhu, this is one of the higher powers, developed through samatha. With the divine eye the passing away and rebirth of other beings is seen. The subco states that this is a kind of pa~n~naa based on the development of the kasina of light. As to the eye of wisdom, the subco states that this is lokiya pa~n~naa and lokuttara pa~n~naa, The eye of wisdom is fivefold according to the Expositor (p. 402): the Buddha eye, the all-seeing eye, the eye of knowledge, clairvoyant eye and the eye of the Dhamma. The Buddha eye and the all-seeing eye (samanta cakkhu) refer to the Buddha’s omniscience. The eye of knowledge refers to the realization of the four noble Truths (Co to the S.IV, first sutta). The subco states that the clairvoyant eye or divine eye is taken separately in the Sangiitisutta, since it is lokiya pa~n~naa, and the eye of wisdom includes both worldly and lokuttara pa~n~naa. As to the eye of Dhamma, this refers to the first three stages of enlightenment, to the magga-cittas and the phalacittas of these stages, thus not to the stage of the arahat. ------- N: Wisdom that sees realities clearly is compared to the eye by means of which seeing sees visible object. Seeing is not thinking. Pa~n~naa sees the truth directly, without having to think about it. The eye of knowledge is insight that directly sees nama and rupa as they are. As to the Dhamma eye, this is referred to in the suttas as the clear and stainless eye of Dhamma which is the result of the development of insight, and it arises at the first three stages of enlightenment. --------- Pali co: Ma.msacakkhu cakkhupasaado. Dibbacakkhu aalokanissita.m ~naa.na.m. Pa~n~naacakkhu lokiyalokuttarapa~n~naa. -------------------- Nina. #95415 From: "ptaus1" Date: Tue Jan 27, 2009 6:53 am Subject: Re: Q.[dsg] Beginner abhidhamma questions ptaus1 Dear Nina, thanks for the clarification, this makes sense. Another questions also on ADL chapter 6: "An unpleasant experience through one of the senses is akusala vipaka caused by an unwholesome deed we performed. When we, for example, hear unpleasant words from someone else we may be angry with that person. Those who have studied Dhamma know that hearing something unpleasant is akusala vipaka which is not caused by someone else but by an unwholesome deed we performed ourselves." I'm having trouble formulating the question so here it is from several angles in hope it will be clear: Does the above passage mean that "unpleasant words from someone else" have come into existence because of my past bad deed, or, does it simply mean that my bad deed is the condition why I'm subjectively experiencing those sounds at the moment as unpleasant (so at some other time, I might experience those same sounds as pleasant if the conditions are right)? In other words, is my past bad deed the condition for things in the external world to materialize (someone else starts saying unpleasant words), or, is it simply that due to my bad deed I now have the capacity to experience something (sounds in this case) as unpleasant? Still in other words, does it mean that certain external things have inherent pleasant/unpleasant nature, or, pleasantness/unpleasantness of external things is simply a subjective thing? Thanks pt #95416 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 27, 2009 6:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhaana. Abhidhamma. nilovg Dear Rob Ep, Op 26-jan-2009, om 20:29 heeft Robert Epstein het volgende geschreven: > This is interesting. Do you have any handy quotes from sutta or > commentaries regarding the panna that allows for true samatha, and the > way in which vipassana understands momentary objects? -------- N: We read in the satipatthaanasutta: (I) Breathing in long, he knows “I breathe in long”; or breathing out long, he knows “I breathe out long”. (II) Breathing in short, he knows “I breathe in short”; or breathing out short, he knows “I breathe out short”. He knows, is said. Knowing: this is pa~n~naa. Also for samatha there must be pa~n~naa as we see in all the descriptions, especially in the Visuddhimagga: he must know what the hindrances are, how could he otherwise suppress them. He must know what the jhaanafactors are by means of which the hindrances are suppressed. The citta that develops jhaana must have sati and pa~n~naa. This is not pa~n~naa that sees realities as anattaa, but pa~n~naa that knows kusala as kusala, and akusala as akusala. There is calm with each kusala citta but this usually does not appear. This calm develops by jhaana, it is the calm of being removed from akusala. It is not calm as we use the word in conventional language when we say: I feel so calm. That is likely to be with lobha. It is true calm, away from akusala. Calm with detachment, alobha. Alobha arises with each kusala citta and thus also with the citta that develops jhaana. Without alobha there cannot be any kind of kusala. Vipassana is insight, and that is pa~n~naa. It develops in stages and the first one is knowing the difference between the characteristic of nama and of rupa, momentary objects, see Visuddhimagga. Also the Patisambhiddamagga describes stages of insight. One characteristic of nama or rupa appears at a time and can be object of pa~n~naa. Compare also the S.IV, from the beginning. I have to be short, since I am leaving next week. ------- Nina. #95417 From: "connie" Date: Tue Jan 27, 2009 7:15 am Subject: Hearing Dhamma nichiconn Dear Scott, All, Gradual Sayings, Fives, ch.XXI: Dhammassavanasutta.m / On hearing Dhamma Pa~ncime, bhikkhave, aanisa.msaa dhammassavane. Katame pa~nca? 'Monks, there are these five advantages from hearing Dhamma. What five? Assuta.m su.naati , suta.m pariyodaapeti, ka"nkha.m vitarati, di.t.thi.m uju.m karoti, cittamassa pasiidati. He hears things not heard; purges things heard; dispels doubt; makes straight his view; and his heart becomes calm. Ime kho, bhikkhave, pa~nca aanisa.msaa dhammassavane>>ti. Verily, monks, these are the five advantages from hearing Dhamma.' I like the "heart becomes calm". ... from Twos on the fool: << If cultivated, what profit does calm attain? The mind is cultivated. What profit results from a cultivated mind? All lust is abandoned. >> peace, connie #95418 From: "connie" Date: Tue Jan 27, 2009 7:15 am Subject: cornerstone nichiconn Dear Friends, Karunadasa continues: One interesting feature in the Theravada version of the theory is the use of the term sammuti for relative truth. For in all other schools of Buddhist thought the term used is satvati. The difference is not simply that between Pali and Sanskrit, for the two terms differ both in etymology and meaning. The term sammuti is derived from the root man, to think, and when prefixed with sam it means consent, convention, general agreement. On the other hand, the term satvati is derived from the root va, to cover, and when prefixed with sam it means covering, concealment. This difference is not confined to the vocabulary of the theory of double truth alone. That elsewhere, too, Sanskrit satvati corresponds to Pali sammuti is confirmed by other textual instances.140 Since sammuti refers to convention or general agreement, sammuti-sacca means truth based on convention or general agreement. On the other hand, the idea behind satvati-satya is that which covers up the true nature of things and makes them appear otherwise.141 140. See e.g. Bodhisattvabhumi, ed. U. Wogihara (Tokyo, 1930-36), p.48. Perhaps the only single Theravada text where satvati is used instead of the usual sammuti is the Sinhala sanne to ADS; see ADSS 159. 141. See Bodhicaryavatara-paljika (Bibliotheca Indica, Calcutta, 1904-14), p.170. For a detailed account of the theories of truth as presented by various Buddhist schools, see L. de la Vallee Poussin, "Les Deux, Les Quatre, Les Trois Verites," Melanges chinois et bouddhiques, Vol. V, pp.159ff. ...to be continued, connie #95419 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Tue Jan 27, 2009 7:17 am Subject: Re: What the Buddha said... to whom? abhidhammika Dear Ken H, Howard, Herman, Alberto, colette, Nina, Robert K, Sarah and all How are you? Ken wrote: "As I recall, you have agreed that no satipatthana meditation techniques are to be found in the Pali texts. You have learnt everything you know about formal vipassana meditation from the Burmese sayadaws." Suan replies: Ken, I do not recall that I have ever said what you wrote above. I would appreciate if you could reproduce my posts that contain your representation of me. As I wrote to Alberto within this thread, I seldom express my personal views. Whenever I do so, I would include a disclaimer. In fact, I have memorised "Aanaapaanapabbam" from Mahaa Satipa.t.thaana Suttam, which I use as the primary formal meditation technique. I have also memorised other satipa.t.thaana meditation techniques such as "Iriyaapathapabbam" and "Sampajaanapabbam" as supplementary methods. Moreover, I memorised them about 20 years ago and regularly recite them in Pali when I sit for a daily Aanaapaanassati meditation session (Mindfulness of Inhalation and Exhalation). Therefore, Ken, you must have made a mistake about me allegedly stating the way you represented me as above. Best wishes, Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org #95420 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 27, 2009 7:33 am Subject: Re: Q.[dsg] Beginner abhidhamma questions nilovg Dear pt, Op 27-jan-2009, om 15:53 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > Does the above passage mean that "unpleasant words from someone else" > have come into existence because of my past bad deed, -------- N: The hearing itself is the result of a deed, it is vipaakacitta, and it is either the result of a good deed or a bad deed. ---------- > pt: Still in other words, does it mean that certain external things > have > inherent pleasant/unpleasant nature, or, pleasantness/unpleasantness > of external things is simply a subjective thing? ------- N: Sound is heard, and sound can be a pleasant object or an unpleasant object. When it is produced by akusala citta rooted in hate of the speaker it is more obvious that it is an unpleasant object and when produced by the Buddha it is like an elixir as Scott quoted. But it depends on kamma what hearing experiences. Hearing is such a short moment and we cannot find out whether the sound is pleasant or unpleasant. It is inherently so. Usually when we think about what is heard akusala cittas tend to arise, the vipaakacittas have passed already. It is helpful to remember that nobody else is to blame for the result we receive. This can be a condition to change our attitude and develop metta and karu.na instead of having aversion. Not the object that is experienced is important, but the manner of attention to it: wise or unwise. And also that depends on conditions: accumulated inclinations. -------- > pt: or, does it > simply mean that my bad deed is the condition why I'm subjectively > experiencing those sounds at the moment as unpleasant (so at some > other time, I might experience those same sounds as pleasant if the > conditions are right)? > > In other words, is my past bad deed the condition for things in the > external world to materialize (someone else starts saying unpleasant > words), or, is it simply that due to my bad deed I now have the > capacity to experience something (sounds in this case) as unpleasant? ------ N: It helps not to think of the external world but instead to come to know what types of cittas arise. Kamma can produce vipaaka in the form of rebirth or during life in the form of seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and experiencing objects through the bodysense. These are all vipaakacittas, and depending on kamma they are kusala vipaakacittas or akusala vipaakacittas. ------- As to my example of illwill as akusala kamma patha, I came across a text in the commentary to the Abhidhammaath Sangaha (Topics of Abhidhamma, p. 181): < Ill will is mental aggression that thinks, 'Oh may this being be destroyed.'> Thus, it is not merely planning to harm, but also thinking with real aggression. -------- Nina. #95421 From: "connie" Date: Tue Jan 27, 2009 8:37 am Subject: Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. nichiconn Hi Herman > ... > S: Again, whilst reflecting on bodily parts, charnel grounds or anything else, the thinking and the various mental states arising, such as calm or aversion, are real and can be known, if such reflection is NOW! H: If one is satisfied with a loose version of NOW, then yes. But if one goes to the extremes of alleged "individual" cittas, then NO. For instance, the physics of seeing makes it clear that seeing at the eye is two dimensional. However, what we see is a three-dimensional world. There is no discursive thought that accompanies this mental creation, one cannot become aware of the 3-D world being thought. Also, reflection is never on the immediate present. ======= c: just a bit from a couple interesting footnotes from the Itivuttaka Commentary: p64 n1: The seen must therefore be understood as ontologically distinct from the cognition of same. c: I think that's what you were saying. But then: p64 n3: "considering" (upadhaara.na) here stands for the sixth, seventh and eighth of the seventeen moments of consciousness (cittakha.na) that constitute one cittaviithi (thought-process) - viz. sampa.ticchana (receiving), santiira.na (investigating) and vo.t.thapana (determining) - preceded by the fifth moment of that process, namely ear-consciousness. ~Naa.namoli takes upadhaara.na to mean "the act of recording", which terminology would seem more appropriate in the case of the sixteenth and seventeenth moments of that process, viz. tadaaramma.na (registering). I'm sorry if you really do consider this all just "an archaic theory of mind". peace, connie #95422 From: TGrand458@... Date: Tue Jan 27, 2009 3:50 am Subject: Re: Clarification Re: [dsg] Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. TGrand458@... I love this. Now we have "conventional suffering." I'll be looking forward to finding all about "ultimate suffering." Maybe I can experience it "now"! TG OUT In a message dated 1/27/2009 12:55:48 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, sprlrt@... writes: Your interpretation of dukkha as conventional suffering (sorrow, pain etc.) condtioning confidence in the Triple Gem just doesn't make any sense, neither common nor with what is clearly stated in all three pitaka, Vinaya, Sutta (about the Middle Path, avoiding pain-based practices) and in Abhidhamma as well (about dhukka vedana arising either with kaya akusala vipaka, the result of past akusala kamma, or akusala kamma itself, 2 dosa-mula citta arising with domanassa vedana only), and dosa is the opposite of metta. #95423 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:16 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhaana. Abhidhamma. epsteinrob Hi Herman. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Herman Hofman wrote: > > Hi Robert, > > 2009/1/27 Robert Epstein : > > Hi Herman! > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Herman Hofman > > wrote: > >> > > > >> It is from SN 47 . 4 > > > > All the translations I see on line start with 47.6. Any ideas where I > > can find it? > > > > Sure! > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/wings/part2.html#part2-a > > There's a whole bunch of suttas in that article that are not > separately included on ATO. The particular one we are discussing is > founds under � 34. > > Cheers > > Herman > Thank you, Herman. I would never have found it on my own under that number. It is part of a very useful sequence about vipassana meditation techniques, very exciting. I like the passage about "noting" in particular, and the comparison with the cook who chooses the right curry. Didn't realize all these techniques came directly from the Buddha's instructions. Best, Robert E. ========================= #95424 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] thesis on Sujin Boriharnwanaket epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Kh Sujin does not see herself as a guru, and she warns against > blindly following a person. It is Dhamma, not the person that matters > she will always say. Everybody has to develop his own understanding. > Nina. I appreciate that those who feel that K. Sujin is a wise person who understands these fine points will follow her teachings in interpreting the Buddhist path. However, I agree with the caution that any one teacher may be deluded or misled in some areas, and that it is a good idea to take final stock with the Buddha's own words before deciding on a more modern pronouncement. Although there is nothing wrong with learning and discussion, as we would all agree by being present in a discussion group! When someone warns that we may mistake one state for another the particulars of how one should discern the truth and how one should practice, if at all, become very important, and so I don't take such warnings to be an off-the-cuff kind of thing. There are other teachers asnd practitioners for Thai Forest and other traditions who look at Jhana in a different way, not with constant warnings, but with encouragement to go as far on the path as their sensibilities will take them. My own inclination is not to dissuade people to attempt meditation, understanding, samatha, jhana and vipassana, including myself, but to encourage and be encouraged. Yes, it is important not to fall into delusion, but it is also important not to have one's visions limited or to be told repeatedly "you cannot do this, do not attempt it." That kind of discouragement does not set someone forward on the path. K. Sujin's assertion that in this day and age it is extremely difficult for anyone to attain jhana and that we should be content with "dry" practice is not borne out by other teachers in other schools, who urge that jhana is extremely difficult and requires great commitment but that it *is* possible and that for one making the commitment it is a good thing. I think we should have positive things to strive for and to have a sense that with proper commitment the full path is possible. That is not to say ignore all warnings, but not to make the path about limitations based on any teacher's personal assessment that it is too difficult for modern types such as ourselves, almost impossible for householders, requiring prior eschewing of all sensuality, etc. When the discouragements are so great, it strikes me as being a negative attitude and one that is seeking to limit the scope of the path, and I am not in favor of that. Best, Robert E. ============================== #95425 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] thesis on Sujin Boriharnwanaket epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Kh Sujin does not see herself as a guru, and she warns against > blindly following a person. It is Dhamma, not the person that matters > she will always say. Everybody has to develop his own understanding. > Nina. Just to add one note to what I have just written, in the last couple of years the idea of jhana, previously of no interest to me, suddenly arose as an exciting idea and I began to look into it. I am still not capable of even reading a whole sutta at one sitting most of the time, let alone do hours of sitting meditation, but this idea got me excited about the path in another way. I didn't plan this or ask for it but it become an energizer, an encouragement for me. I am under no illusions about attaining jhana anytime soon, maybe not in this lifetime, but I think it is worth noting that someone may have conditions develop, just as you would say it, that bring such an idea into their mind and become an encouragement for them to go further on the path. The idea of one day attaining jhana, while not a discernment in the moment, may give energy to discernment in the moment. I don't think we should discourage someone who has such an idea naturally arise in their mind and perhaps set them away from the path when they find something that moves them towards it or attracts them to the path. You may say this is a kind of akusala goal that is in the future, based on desire, but I think we need positive ideas about the potential of the path to keep us moving forward, especially if we understand that they are not presently realities. Best, Robert E. =============================== #95426 From: John Murray Date: Tue Jan 27, 2009 3:57 am Subject: Newbie johnramurray Hi Guys I have just joined the group, and would like to introduce myself. My name is John Murray and I am a 62 year old male, married with children and living in Bristol, UK. I make my living as a computer service engineer. I have been practicing Buddhism (Theravada) since I had the good fortune to attend a 10-day Vipassana course in 1981, taught by John E Coleman (a student of Syaji U Ba Khin). Since then I have pretty much kept up my practice and attended a 10-day course on average once a year. I love to read -so called- Buddhist poetry, especially from China and Japan. I will sign off quoting a poem by the Japanese monk Ryokan, translated by John Stevens. The rain has stopped, the clouds have drifted away And the weather is clear again. If your heart is pure, then all things in your world are pure. Abandon this fleeting world Abandon yourself Then the moon and flowers will guide you on the way. John #95427 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 27, 2009 12:12 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Newbie nilovg Dear John, welcome to this group. Thanks for your introduction. I like the Japanese poem, especially this line, see below. Op 27-jan-2009, om 12:57 heeft John Murray het volgende geschreven: > If your heart is pure, then all things in your world are pure. ------- N. This makes me think of a passage from 'Survey of Paramattha Dhammas' by Acharn Sujin: this is the link: http://www.abhidhamma.org/Para1.htm Reality of daily life is more fascinating than poetry, I think. Nina. #95428 From: Herman Hofman Date: Tue Jan 27, 2009 2:11 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. egberdina Hi connie, 2009/1/28 connie : > > > I'm sorry if you really do consider this all just "an archaic theory of mind". > No need to be sorry for me, connie. Especially as it is actually an occasion to be happy for me. I have not dismissed the citta-vitthi theory in a whim. But, to me, the very fact that there is not a whiff of any of it in any of the suttas is proof positive that this theory of mind must be irrelevant to the aim of the teachings. Consequently, I have relieved myself of the burden to further assess it. And what a relief that is. What is noteworthy is that people come flocking to be fed these intricate systems of belief, preferring them over some very straightforward instructions. It is, of course, understandable, in the way that all addictive behaviours are understandable. Cheers Herman #95429 From: Herman Hofman Date: Tue Jan 27, 2009 2:13 pm Subject: Re: Clarification Re: [dsg] Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. egberdina HI TG, 2009/1/28 : > I love this. Now we have "conventional suffering." > > > I'll be looking forward to finding all about "ultimate suffering." Maybe I > can experience it "now"! > > Oh, you are wicked :-) Cheers Herman #95430 From: Herman Hofman Date: Tue Jan 27, 2009 2:20 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhaana. Abhidhamma. egberdina Hi RobE, 2009/1/28 Robert Epstein : > Hi Herman. > > > Thank you, Herman. I would never have found it on my own under that > number. It is part of a very useful sequence about vipassana > meditation techniques, very exciting. I like the passage about > "noting" in particular, and the comparison with the cook who chooses > the right curry. Didn't realize all these techniques came directly > from the Buddha's instructions. > I'm very glad to have been of assistance :-). I must thank you too, for your very well balanced arguments in a number of threads. Very good! Cheers Herman #95431 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Jan 27, 2009 2:33 pm Subject: Re: What the Buddha said... to whom? kenhowardau Hi Suan, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "abhidhammika" wrote: > > > > > Dear Ken H, Howard, Herman, Alberto, colette, Nina, Robert K, Sarah > and all > > How are you? > > Ken wrote: > > "As I recall, you have agreed that no satipatthana meditation > techniques are to be found in the Pali texts. You have learnt > everything you know about formal vipassana meditation from the > Burmese sayadaws." > > Suan replies: > > Ken, I do not recall that I have ever said what you wrote above. --------- I am sorry to hear that: I thought I had remembered your remarks fairly well. But apparently not the way you meant them! :-) ------------------------ S: > I would appreciate if you could reproduce my posts that contain your representation of me. ------------------------- Even if I could find them I wouldn't. If you say that I have misunderstood what you wrote at the time then I am happy to accept that. It was my mistake. Let me recount the conversation as I thought I remembered it. Perhaps you will tell me what you actually meant to say: I think I referred to a certain manuscript in which detailed instructions for "walking-vipassana-meditation" were given. It was written by a well known Burmese Sayadaw. It instructed the meditator to concentrate on his foot as he was intending to lift it off the floor. The meditator was to mentally note "Intending . . .Intending . . . Intending . . ." Then, as the foot was lifted, he was to note "Lifting . . . Lifting . . . " And so on - "moving" "placing" etc - and back to "intending" (for the other foot). My question was, 'were those instructions, or any others like them, contained in the ancient Pali texts?' Your answer, as I recall, was no. You said they were the work of the Burmese sayadaws. Some time before that I had asked our friend [and your countryman] Htoo Niang whether that kind of instruction was to be found in the texts and if not, why not? Htoo, as I am sure you will agree, has an extensive knowledge of the texts. His answer was no, they were not in the texts, and only the venerable Ananda would have know why they were omitted from the Tipitaka at time of the First Council. (I am pretty sure I referred to Htoo's answer when writing to you.) ---------------------- S: > As I wrote to Alberto within this thread, I seldom express my personal views. Whenever I do so, I would include a disclaimer. In fact, I have memorised "Aanaapaanapabbam" from Mahaa Satipa.t.thaana Suttam, which I use as the primary formal meditation technique. I have also memorised other satipa.t.thaana meditation techniques such as "Iriyaapathapabbam" and "Sampajaanapabbam" as supplementary methods. Moreover, I memorised them about 20 years ago and regularly recite them in Pali when I sit for a daily Aanaapaanassati meditation session (Mindfulness of Inhalation and Exhalation). ---------------- That sounds like good material for discussion. I would like to see if those texts resemble "instructions" that can be followed at will. Or are they descriptions of the conditioned dhamma, panna, in various stages of development? Ken H #95432 From: "dkotschessa" Date: Tue Jan 27, 2009 2:41 pm Subject: Lobha and Kamma-pathas ADL Chapter 5 dkotschessa I am still (carefully) going through Nina's Abhidhamma in daily life. On the section on the 10 unwholesome courses of action, I have extracted this from the text. Bodily Action - All Accompanied by Moha (ignorance) 1. Killing - Done also with dosa (aversion) 2. Stealing - sometimes with lobha and sometimes with dosa 3. Sexual misbehaviour - Done with Lobha Verbal Action - All Accompanied by Moha (ignorance) 4. Lying - sometimes with lobha and sometimes with dosa 5. Slandering - done with dosa 6. Rude speech - done with dosa 7. Frivolous talk - sometimes with lobha and sometimes with dosa Also, from nina: "talk is not always akusala kamma patha. It can be done with by akusala citta which does not have the intensity of akusala kamma-patha." Mental Action - All Accompanied by Moha (ignorance) 8. Covetousness - done with lobha 9. Ill-will - done with dosa 10. Wrong view (ditthi) - Not stated in the text, but certainly moha (ignorance) So my two questions for Nina and others are: 1. It's clear that all the kamma-pathas are accompanied by moha (ignorance). But since this is the chapter on lobha - are we to assume that they are always accompanied by lobha as well? Kind of a minor point but I want to be clear. 2. Wrong view - What type of cittas accompany wrong view? If it's lobha - what is being attached to? (The wrong view, I imagine). If it's dosa, what is one being averse too?) Just fine points, nothing major. (Though in Abhidhamma I suppose it's all about the details). Thank you, -Dave K #95433 From: "Alex" Date: Tue Jan 27, 2009 2:48 pm Subject: Re: What the Buddha said... to whom? truth_aerator Dear KenH, Suan and all interested. >, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi Suan, > I think I referred to a certain manuscript in which detailed > instructions for "walking-vipassana-meditation" were given. It was > written by a well known Burmese Sayadaw. It instructed the >meditator to concentrate on his foot as he was intending to lift it >off the floor. The meditator was to mentally > note "Intending . . .Intending . . . Intending . . ." Then, as the > foot was lifted, he was to note "Lifting . . . Lifting . . . " And >so on - "moving" "placing" etc - and back to "intending" (for the >other foot). > > My question was, 'were those instructions, or any others like them, > contained in the ancient Pali texts?' Yes. Re walking: Being mindful of lifting->moving->placing is kayanupassana part of Satipatthana dealing with postures (and clear comprehension when walking, turning, looking and so on). Noting "intention...intention" is cittaanupassana part of Satipatthana. With best wishes, Alex #95434 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Jan 27, 2009 3:02 pm Subject: Re: What the Buddha said... to whom? kenhowardau Hi Herman, -------- KH: > > All of the "no-controllers" agree that there is no efficacy > (no inherent characteristic, good or bad, right or wrong) in any > concept. H: > It think that to this point we are all singing the same tune. -------- The chance would be a fine thing! :-) ------------------------- H: > Now, all that remains for those who assert it, is to demonstrate their great white hope, ultimate reality. ------------------------- What are you suggesting? That there is no ultimate reality? Only concepts? ----------------- H: > Fire away. ------------------ I have given you my understanding of ultimate reality about two thousand times. I suspect you are not really interested: you just like a good argument. To paraphrase Monty Python: This is Dhamma Discussion, Arguments is down the hall. :-) Ken H #95435 From: "connie" Date: Tue Jan 27, 2009 3:17 pm Subject: Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. nichiconn Dear Herman, > I'm sorry if you really do consider this all just "an archaic theory of mind". > No need to be sorry for me, connie. Especially as it is actually an occasion to be happy for me. I have not dismissed the citta-vitthi theory in a whim. But, to me, the very fact that there is not a whiff of any of it in any of the suttas is proof positive that this theory of mind must be irrelevant to the aim of the teachings. Consequently, I have relieved myself of the burden to further assess it. And what a relief that is. What is noteworthy is that people come flocking to be fed these intricate systems of belief, preferring them over some very straightforward instructions. It is, of course, understandable, in the way that all addictive behaviours are understandable. c: don't misunderstand me, Herman. I'm sorry we'll have that much less to talk about... not wanting to bother you with stuff you aren't interested in. Well, i can always put your smiley poster back up if i get lonesome... i think part of "the problem" with the Vism is that it begins at the beginning; you know, where the deva has asked "who can untangle from this mess" and Buddha doesn't say "o, just anyone" but "a wise man, already established in virtue" etc... so we read right on past that and by the time we get to the so-called "beginner instructions" our usual conceit's climbed back into the driver's seat saying "I can! -heck, I don't even need this overly-cautious driver's manual." But it's not just the V, is it? This insurance risk also ignores the warning signs in the suttas; like this one from Gradual Sayings, Twos: Disputes -- Monks, there are these two powers. What two? The power of computation {pa.tisankhaana} and the power of cultivation {bhaavanaa = bruuhana, va.d.dhana}. [...] In this case the power of cultivation pertains to those under training. [...] c: again, those who've already passed this kind of driver's ed... not just fools behind the wheel driving in circles; hard not to be driven by our hurry up and go nowhere ways, though. peace, connie #95436 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Jan 27, 2009 6:38 pm Subject: Re: thesis on Sujin Boriharnwanaket kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Epstein" wrote: > > Hi Nina. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom > wrote: > > > Kh Sujin does not see herself as a guru, and she warns against > > blindly following a person. It is Dhamma, not the person that matters > > she will always say. Everybody has to develop his own understanding. > > Nina. RE: > Just to add one note to what I have just written, in the last couple > of years the idea of jhana, previously of no interest to me, suddenly > arose as an exciting idea and I began to look into it. > You may say this is a kind of akusala goal that is > in the future, based on desire, but I think we need positive ideas > about the potential of the path to keep us moving forward, especially > if we understand that they are not presently realities. ----------- Hi Robert Ep (and Nina), From what I have seen (and I hope someone will correct me if I get this wrong) K Sujin will not compromise just to keep someone happy. Some people who have great respect for her as a teacher still continue with their ritualistic samatha and vipassana practices. They desperately want her to approve of those practices, but she won't. I think she once explained that those people were 'seeking permission to keep going round and round on the wheel of samsara.' Ken H #95437 From: "colette" Date: Tue Jan 27, 2009 1:38 pm Subject: "She's so heavy" The Beattles ksheri3 Helllllllllo R. Epstein, That was a tremendous post! I am so elated and laughing that I can't see any greater depiction of the experience a reader would have to this post as being that of Gomer Pyle in the Andy Griffith series where Gomer is constantly known for his standard operating procedure to say: "Shazam"! With that said you can easily see my appreciation through the application of the Beattle's song where the Beattles exclaim their amazement at what they perceive as being: "She's so heavy" and then ya put that in context with, at the time, harvard Professor Timothy Leary's equality between the psychedelic experience and the Tibetan Book of the Dead, which generates the lyric "she's so heavy", is a MAGNIFICENT APPLICATION AND A MAGNIFICENT COMPLIMENT. Your post, below, is soooooo heavy I can't even begin to think that 90% of the group, here, will not even begin to grasp the depth at which you are operating! It is scholars, like you, that I am sooooooo greatful to have encountered after decades of solitary confinement and torture by the Middle-Class or the Status Quo, which ever you choose to beleive in. What can I possibly say other than to, if I were, to go through and do nothing more than paste your body with glaze or honey, as if that which you have spoken is something that people will digest and/or eat? As a chef, myself, I would not touch such a dish and risk the defilement of such a dish. THANK YOU FOR YOUR SOLIDARITY, although I'm getting into a Kaos Mage's field here since I was, in other groups, focusing on "one monkey won't stop the show" Stick McGhee, and the last picture of a Russian colleague the past away showing his visage, happily, with a monkey on his "right shoulder". This post is such a shock to me that I will have to read it and digest it slowly since I can savior the beauty of this post without end. I tell ya, I can't believe how lucky I am to have found such wise scholars in all my aspects of magik, around the world. Even in my solitary confinement and torture that Chicago has issued and reigned upon me since 1978 It is posts like this and people like yourself that are such an inspiration and motivation that I cannot possibly conceive that I am alone and that I cannot possibly conceive that what I see is only seen by myself. Bless you buddy! toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Epstein" wrote: > > I appreciate that those who feel that K. Sujin is a wise person who > understands these fine points will follow her teachings in > interpreting the Buddhist path. However, I agree with the caution > that any one teacher may be deluded or misled in some areas, and that > it is a good idea to take final stock with the Buddha's own words > before deciding on a more modern pronouncement. Although there is > nothing wrong with learning and discussion, as we would all agree by > being present in a discussion group! > #95438 From: "colette" Date: Tue Jan 27, 2009 2:11 pm Subject: Re: Newbie ksheri3 Hi John Murray, Glad to have you aboard. Welcome. Me, I'm a little different from the status quo and my techniques fly in the face of the status quo. For instance, Nina, while I appreciate her participation, I appreciate her wisdom, I appreciate her presence, etc, I am totally laughing at her approach to welcoming a "newbie" to our ranks. "Boulderdash" as a character in a WArner Bros cartoon might say i.e. Yosemite Sam, She, Nina, isn't first accepting your poem at face value. Sure, I do that same behavior a lot since I don't have time for bullshit, but you are new and so not accustomed to the current of the stream of consciousness here in this group. I accept your poem with joy since it describes sooooooooooooooo much more, in the act of meditation, that that which Nina chooses to focus on and potentially delude you with. It's japanese as you state and the japanese are very different from the chinese and the korean and even the vietnamese and the burmese or lest we forget the Thia. Is Nina playing a game of Shinto with you here? Maybe some other form or offshoot of Buddhism? Maybe this is her style and technique. I don't have time or value to worry about such things. I simply know that I filter things. What is the focus of the poem? Is it the weather, the rain, the heart, the Time & Space, is it this supposed purrity, the transience, the supposed self, etc. What is the poem speaking of? Did the Monty Python Troupe first copywrite this poem since they both, the poem and the material written by the Monty Python Troupe, the both refer to universal axioms, thus who wrote this material? Where did it originate from? Dependent Origination, no? ;) I like your subtle entrance! Thanks for giving us something to remember you by and recall your kindness upon entering our humble little gathering of ignorant schmucks festering around looking for peace and comfort. maybe our colleague R. Epstein can help us out in the Chan aspects or chinese aspects of your poem. Any student of history knows the anamosity between the Chinese and the Japanese. glad to see ya here. toodles, colette > I will sign off quoting a poem by the Japanese monk Ryokan, translated by > John Stevens. > > > > The rain has stopped, the clouds have drifted away > > And the weather is clear again. > > If your heart is pure, then all things in your world are pure. > > Abandon this fleeting world > > Abandon yourself > > Then the moon and flowers will guide you on the way. #95439 From: Herman Hofman Date: Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:58 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. egberdina Hi connie, > > c: don't misunderstand me, Herman. I'm sorry we'll have that much less to talk about... not wanting to bother you with stuff you aren't interested in. Well, i can always put your smiley poster back up if i get lonesome... :-) It sounds like we share a similar predicament. Generally, with some very appreciated exceptions, folks here treat the findings of modern science with disdain. Which is a bit of a pity to me, because I am very interested in the findings of modern science. And it is against that backdrop that I refer to the science of 500 AD, which you have an interest in, as archaic. > > i think part of "the problem" with the Vism is that it begins at the beginning; you know, where the deva has asked "who can untangle from this mess" and Buddha doesn't say "o, just anyone" but "a wise man, already established in virtue" etc... so we read right on past that and by the time we get to the so-called "beginner instructions" our usual conceit's climbed back into the driver's seat saying "I can! -heck, I don't even need this overly-cautious driver's manual." > What I find notable is that the whole citta-vittha theory is missing from the suttas. That is what leads me to believe that knowing that theory cannot be relevant to the ending of suffering. In that respect, I do not believe that it has anything to do with being beginners etc. > > But it's not just the V, is it? This insurance risk also ignores the warning signs in the suttas; like this one from Gradual Sayings, Twos: Disputes -- > Monks, there are these two powers. What two? > The power of computation {pa.tisankhaana} and the power of cultivation {bhaavanaa = bruuhana, va.d.dhana}. > [...] > In this case the power of cultivation pertains to those under training. > [...] > > c: again, those who've already passed this kind of driver's ed... not just fools behind the wheel driving in circles; hard not to be driven by our hurry up and go nowhere ways, though. Could I ask you why you believe knowledge of the citta-vittha theory with its 17 mind-moments etc to be important, when the Buddha was silent about it? Cheers Herman #95440 From: Herman Hofman Date: Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:03 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Newbie egberdina Hi John, 2009/1/27 John Murray : > > > The rain has stopped, the clouds have drifted away > > And the weather is clear again. > > If your heart is pure, then all things in your world are pure. > > Abandon this fleeting world > > Abandon yourself > > Then the moon and flowers will guide you on the way. > Your poem made me very angry :-))))) Welcome abroad :-)))))))) Herman #95441 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:21 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhaana. Abhidhamma. epsteinrob Hi Herman. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Herman Hofman wrote: > I'm very glad to have been of assistance :-). I must thank you too, > for your very well balanced arguments in a number of threads. Very > good! > > Cheers > > > Herman :-) Robert - - - - - - - #95442 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:32 pm Subject: Re: thesis on Sujin Boriharnwanaket epsteinrob Hi Ken. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Some people who have great respect for her as a teacher still > continue with their ritualistic samatha and vipassana practices. They > desperately want her to approve of those practices, but she won't. I > think she once explained that those people were 'seeking permission > to keep going round and round on the wheel of samsara.' > > Ken H There are potentially some presuppositions in your statement that are not necessarily correct. One is the use of "ritualistic" to describe samatha/vipassana meditation. This implies that it is empty and fruitless, something that you most likely do not know, but only feel based on your personal opinion and philosophy. It is disparaging to say that someone else's practice is "ritualistic" unless you can in fact specify what this means and show that it is going through the motions of the path without having the desired result. Another is that is K. Sujin is correct in all the things she says about these things. This is also a matter of faith on your part. Another is that she is in a position to know what is best practice for others and that she can pronounce judgment or give or withhold permission for them to partake of their own practice, as though they were little children and she were their mother. Perhaps you would like to say that K. Sujin is a living Buddha and is omniscient? I would be happy to entertain such a claim if you have some experience that can serve as evidence. What it really comes down to is that some, like yourself, who adhere stolidly to an extremely specific version of Abhdhamma philosophy, will not brook any contradictory theory or practice, and that is that. I am not saying that you are right or that you are wrong, but you are not open. Your mind is closed to alternative thoughts and practices, and you have a right to be so. What you do not have a right to do is to assume that others are wrong without proper investigation, although you can continue to do this too. It is up to you. The idea that some practitioners, again like little children, would be desperate for K. Sujin's approval but continue to contradict her teachings with their behavior, shows that they themselves are of a split mind and have not settled on their own practice. I wish them the best, and you too. I also wish luck to all those who feel their measure of success on the path is the approval of an outer authority, as this will be in conflict with their own experience and their independent understanding of dhamma. Best, Robert E. ============================ #95443 From: Herman Hofman Date: Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What the Buddha said... to whom? egberdina Hi KenH, 2009/1/28 kenhowardau : > Hi Herman, > > -------- > KH: > > All of the "no-controllers" agree that there is no efficacy >> (no inherent characteristic, good or bad, right or wrong) in any >> concept. > > H: > It think that to this point we are all singing the same tune. > -------- > > The chance would be a fine thing! :-) > > It would indeed. And I did think that your line >>there is no efficacy >> (no inherent characteristic, good or bad, right or wrong) in any >> concept very nicely captured the gist of concepts. ------------------------- > H: > Now, all that remains for those who assert it, is to demonstrate > their great white hope, ultimate reality. > ------------------------- > > What are you suggesting? That there is no ultimate reality? Only > concepts? Yep. Apart from nibbana, that is. All consciousness is conceptual. > > ----------------- > H: > Fire away. > ------------------ > > I have given you my understanding of ultimate reality about two > thousand times. I suspect you are not really interested: you just > like a good argument. True. I love a good argument, especially where good means sound. The world operates in a lawful, logical, discoverable way. Thinking doesn't. That's because thinking is mostly craving. And there's nothing lawful, logical or discoverable about craving. Still, if two or more people can get together and discuss in line with how the world works, then there is a good, sound discussion happening. I agree that you have told me your views many times. I don't agree that I am not interested, after all, I keep asking, don't I? :-) > > To paraphrase Monty Python: This is Dhamma Discussion, Arguments is > down the hall. :-) > Those guys were great! But if Dhamma Discussion does not relate to how the world works, then perhaps down the hall there are better options :-) I say that because, as far as I can tell, your views consist mainly of a denial of every thing that happens, and instead firmly re-iterating that there is only the present. Hardly a discussion, hey what? Cheese Herman #95444 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:34 pm Subject: Re: "She's so heavy" The Beattles epsteinrob Hi Colette. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "colette" wrote: > > Helllllllllo R. Epstein, > > That was a tremendous post! I am so elated and laughing that I can't > see any greater depiction of the experience a reader would have to > this post as being that of Gomer Pyle in the Andy Griffith series > where Gomer is constantly known for his standard operating procedure > to say: "Shazam"! Thank you Colette. I'm glad you enjoyed my post. Being compared to Gomer Pyle has also given me a very special feeling which I will savor for the evening. Best, Robert E. ========================== #95445 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:47 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhaana. Abhidhamma. epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Rob Ep, > Op 26-jan-2009, om 20:29 heeft Robert Epstein het volgende geschreven: > > > This is interesting. Do you have any handy quotes from sutta or > > commentaries regarding the panna that allows for true samatha, and the > > way in which vipassana understands momentary objects? > > > -------- > N: We read in the satipatthaanasutta: (I) Breathing in long, he knows > �I breathe in long�; or breathing out long, he knows �I breathe out > long�. > (II) Breathing in short, he knows �I breathe in short�; or breathing > out short, he knows �I breathe out short�. > He knows, is said. Knowing: this is pa~n~naa. Also for samatha there > must be pa~n~naa as we see in all the descriptions, especially in the > Visuddhimagga: he must know what the hindrances are, how could he > otherwise suppress them. He must know what the jhaanafactors are by > means of which the hindrances are suppressed. The citta that develops > jhaana must have sati and pa~n~naa. This is not pa~n~naa that sees > realities as anattaa, but pa~n~naa that knows kusala as kusala, and > akusala as akusala. Thank you Nina. I appreciate the explanation which is helpful. I hope that since you are going away soon that you have a very good trip, and I have to apologize a bit for the recent exchanges that have some intensity to them about practice and especially regarding the role of K. Sujin. Although I feel obliged to say what I think about these things, I do feel a bit rude, so am sorry for that. Best, Robert E. ============================= #95446 From: "ptaus1" Date: Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:52 pm Subject: Re: Q.[dsg] Beginner abhidhamma questions ptaus1 Dear Nina, thanks for a helpful response. I think I'm slowly starting to understand this. Here's one area that I'm still confused. Say I commit a bad deed. Now, it's perfectly reasonable that it will result in akusala vipaaka through one of the 6 senses. It might be an unpleasant sound, or a painful bodily feeling, etc, and it really doesn't matter whether that pain was seemingly caused by an external condition like an angry person who hit me, or a piano fell on my leg, or a lightning struck me, etc. What matters is un/wise attention to that vipaaka and corresponding accumulation of a/kusala tendencies. Now, all this seems understandable, except one thing – did my kamma somehow influence which of the external factors will be the external cause of my pain – the lightning, the piano, or the angry person? I agree when you said that we should not think of the external world, and instead be more concerned about the type of citta arising. But, I'm having problems applying that advice to situations when the external cause of pain is a person. I mean, I have no problems with lighting and pianos falling down, but if a person hits me, I can't help but think that it's somehow my fault – it is my kamma which made him do it. So, it's not just that my bad deeds are damaging to me, but also to others because they make them do bad deeds. Of course, it's not that my kamma was the only condition for his action, there must have been also his own dosa, etc, but did my kamma also play a part in his action? In other words, do the fruits of my kamma start only with the actual painful bodily vipaaka, or do they start before that by influencing if it's a person or a piano that externally causes me bodily pain? Thanks pt #95447 From: "sprlrt" Date: Tue Jan 27, 2009 11:12 pm Subject: Clarification Re: [dsg] Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. sprlrt Hi TG, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@... wrote: > > I love this. Now we have "conventional suffering." > > > I'll be looking forward to finding all about "ultimate suffering." > Maybe I > can experience it "now"! > Impossible, selves can only experience conventional truth, not ultimate dhammas, all anatta by definition, and dukkha. It's a bit like expecting to suntan in the moonlight... Alberto #95448 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:23 am Subject: [dsg] Survey, Ch 36, no 1. nilovg Dear friends, Ch 36. The Meaning of Anattå Q. : There are four Applications of Mindfulness: mindfulness of the body, of feeling, of citta and of dhammas. The commentator compares these four subjects with four gateways of a city, one of which faces east, one west, one north and one south. People can go the the center of the city by anyone of these four gates. Many teachers today say that just as one can use anyone of the gates to enter the city, it is sufficient to cultivate only one of the four Applications of Mindfulness; one does not need all four. Only mindfulness of the body would be sufficient. Can one then in this way reach nibbåna? S. : The development of paññå is very subtle. It is not so that anyone who reads the Commentary can practise. Where is the gate? If people do not know where the gates are, through which gate can they enter? Q. : The gates are: body, feeling, citta and dhammas. S. : What do you know through the bodysense? One should really consider all realities in detail, no matter whether they are classified as khandhas, åyatanas, dhåtus (elements) or the noble Truths. They are not beings, people or self. Conditioned realities appearing in daily life are either nåma, the reality which experiences something, or rúpa, the reality which does not know anything. We may understand this in theory, but that is not the direct realization of the characteristic of non-self of nåma and rúpa. As far as the level of theoretical understanding is concerned, which stems from listening to the Dhamma, one may have no doubt that rúpa is real, that the rúpa which arises and appears through the eyes are only different colours. One may have no doubt that sound is the rúpa which appears through the ears, odour the rúpa which appears through the nose, flavour the rúpa which appears through the tongue, and so on. People may have no doubt that nåma is real, that it arises and experiences different objects, they can have theoretical understanding of this. However, if there is no awareness of the characteristic of nama, how can there be paññå which directly understands nåma as the reality which experiences an object, as the element, the nature which knows? Can the development of only awareness of the body be the condition to realize the characteristic of nåma? *********** Nina. #95449 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhaana. Abhidhamma. nilovg Dear Rob Ep, Op 28-jan-2009, om 7:47 heeft Robert Epstein het volgende geschreven: > Thank you Nina. I appreciate the explanation which is helpful. I > hope that since you are going away soon that you have a very good > trip, and I have to apologize a bit for the recent exchanges that have > some intensity to them about practice and especially regarding the > role of K. Sujin. Although I feel obliged to say what I think about > these things, I do feel a bit rude, so am sorry for that. _______ N: No, you are not rude or too intense, not at all. I appreciate your careful considerations. Thanks for your good wishes. I shall think over your last posts and try to say something. Nina. #95450 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Newbie sarahprocter... Hi John, Welcome to DSG and thanks for kindly introducing yourself and for the poem. The rain-clouds here in Fiji haven't cleared - we've managed to pick the wettest month in over 100 years to be here, which is saying something in this green, lush, tropical country! (This was after picking the coldest August in Sydney last year for a few decades.....!!) Anyway, clearing the storm-clouds of ignorance with the growth of wisdom is far more precious....let it rain! Let there be holes in the roof of attachment. .... --- On Tue, 27/1/09, John Murray wrote: >My name is John Murray and I am a 62 year old male, married with children and living in Bristol, UK. I make my living as a computer service engineer. I have been practicing Buddhism (Theravada) since I had the good fortune to attend a 10-day Vipassana course in 1981, taught by John E Coleman (a student of Syaji U Ba Khin). Since then I have pretty much kept up my practice and attended a 10-day course on average once a year. .... S: Hmmm, I have friends from a long time back who live in the same area, with similar interests and similar ages. (See *** at end) Please feel at home and join in any threads or feel free to start any of your own in your own 'language' and 'style'. Newbies sometimes find it easier to skip complex threads initially and just follow those they've started. Metta, Sarah *** Do you know Derek and Janie Girling or Suzanne (?)? ======= #95451 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Lobha and Kamma-pathas ADL Chapter 5 nilovg Dear Dave, I appreciate your questions. Op 27-jan-2009, om 23:41 heeft dkotschessa het volgende geschreven: > 1. It's clear that all the kamma-pathas are accompanied by moha > (ignorance). But since this is the chapter on lobha - are we to > assume that they are always accompanied by lobha as well? Kind of a > minor point but I want to be clear. -------- N: Ignorance accompanies each akusala citta, at that moment akusala is not known as akusala, the danger of akusala is not known. Slandering can be done with lobha or dosa. With lobha: you like the story or you want to be popular. Dosa: you hate the other person and want to harm his good name. Wrong view, always accompanying lobha-muulacitta. it is a kind of clinging. ------- > > D: 2. Wrong view - What type of cittas accompany wrong view? If it's > lobha - what is being attached to? (The wrong view, I imagine). If > it's dosa, what is one being averse too?) -------- N: Not with dosa. Four types of the eight cittas rooted in lobha are accompanied by wrong view. You will see the classifications later on. For instance, you believe in a self doing this or that, and then there is clinging to that view of self. Not all wrong views are kamma patha. The view that there is no kamma producing result is a strong wrong view that is very dangerous. It can lead someone to all kinds of evil deeds. He may think that it does not matter what the consequences of his deeds are. -------- > > D: Just fine points, nothing major. (Though in Abhidhamma I suppose > it's all about the details). ------- N: Yes, details are important. The Abhidhamma is very precise and this is valuable to understand the many different cittas. Cittas are so intricate arising because of diverse conditions. The Buddha realized them all at the moment of his enlightenment. ------ Nina. #95452 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jan 28, 2009 1:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner sarahprocter... Hi Herman, --- On Tue, 27/1/09, Herman Hofman wrote: >I wouldn't mind if you could outline your conception of samvega. .... S: I understand it to be referring to right effort arising with right understanding and other 'rights'. Now, is the a 'stirring', the energetic reflection or understanding of dhammas, kusala or akusala? Metta, Sarah p.s. Sharon and her sweet daughter came round to visit me for a couple of hours at a spot we were staying for the weekend near hers. Of course she remembers you well and was quite surprised to hear about your interest in the Dhamma. She says she's still in touch with your other friend, Robin. After you knew Sharon, she moved back to Japan and lost touch with many friends. She asked me for yr email which I'll send her tomorrow. What else? I showed her a couple of your messages. After a pause, her response was that 'all would be clear' if you (and others of us here) practised! She'd like to join any gathering we arrange in the Blue Mts. ============ #95453 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 28, 2009 1:29 am Subject: Re: Q.[dsg] Beginner abhidhamma questions nilovg Dear pt, Op 28-jan-2009, om 7:52 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > Say I commit a bad deed. Now, it's perfectly reasonable that it will > result in akusala vipaaka through one of the 6 senses..... > Now, all this seems understandable, except one thing – did my kamma > somehow influence which of the external factors will be the external > cause of my pain – the lightning, the piano, or the angry person? I > agree when you said that we should not think of the external world, > and instead be more concerned about the type of citta arising. But, > I'm having problems applying that advice to situations when the > external cause of pain is a person. ------- N: For kamma to produce result there are other conditions that play their part. It is explained in the co ( Dispeller of Delusion II, p. 145) that there are other conditions that are favorable to akusala kamma producing result or kusala kamma not producing result or vice versa. They are: the time when one is born (war or peace); the destiny: for example hell plane or human plane; upadhi, substratum, or here one's bodily condition and upaya, means or occupation. --------- I quote from Kh Sujin's Survey of Paramattha dhammas, Ch 16: (link:http://www.abhidhamma.org/Para6.htm ) ---------- > pt: I mean, I have no problems with lighting and pianos falling > down, but > if a person hits me, I can't help but think that it's somehow my fault > – it is my kamma which made him do it. So, it's not just that my bad > deeds are damaging to me, but also to others because they make them do > bad deeds. Of course, it's not that my kamma was the only condition > for his action, there must have been also his own dosa, etc, but did > my kamma also play a part in his action? In other words, do the fruits > of my kamma start only with the actual painful bodily vipaaka, or do > they start before that by influencing if it's a person or a piano that > externally causes me bodily pain? ------- N: Your kamma has nothing to do with someone else's akusala. Your kamma may have been committed long ago, even aeons ago. As we read in the sutta: 'Deeds are one's own, people are heirs to their deeds'. At the moment of vipaakacitta kamma produces fruit, not before, and it has nothing to do with someone else. How exactly kamma operates is the field of Buddhas. It is on of the unthinkables. But as you know, it is wise attention to an object or unwise attention to an object that is essential. We cannot change the vipaakacitta that has arisen already, but kusala can be developed. ******* Nina. #95454 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] thesis on Sujin Boriharnwanaket nilovg Dear Rob Ep, I snip so that the post does not become too long. Op 27-jan-2009, om 18:27 heeft Robert Epstein het volgende geschreven: > Yes, it is important not > to fall into delusion, but it is also important not to have one's > visions limited or to be told repeatedly "you cannot do this, do not > attempt it." That kind of discouragement does not set someone forward > on the path. K. Sujin's assertion that in this day and age it is > extremely difficult for anyone to attain jhana and that we should be > content with "dry" practice is not borne out by other teachers in > other schools, who urge that jhana is extremely difficult and requires > great commitment but that it *is* possible and that for one making the > commitment it is a good thing. ------- N: I see your point. Each person lives according to his accumulated inclinations, and this is a point emphasized by Kh Sujin. She points to cause and effect. When a certain cause (like jhana) is cultivated it brings this effect, when vipassana is cultivated it brings that effect. As to jhana, when this has been developed and it does not decline, it can arise shortly before dying, and then it produces rebirth in one of the Brahma planes. According to the Abhidhamma and commentaries, it never produces vipaaka in the same life, only in the next life in the form of rebirth and bhavangacittas. It does not lead to the end of the cycle, life in a brahmaplane is extremely long and after that there is rebirth again. Only vipassana leads to the eradication of defilements and to the end of the cycle. ------- > R: I think we should have positive things > to strive for and to have a sense that with proper commitment the full > path is possible. ------ N: It all depends on right understanding of what the Path is, and even then many conditions are necessary. If one is born with alobha and adosa but not with pa~n~naa it is not possible to attain jhana or enlightenment. Because of birth there can be limitations. -------- > R: When the discouragements are so > great, it strikes me as being a negative attitude and one that is > seeking to limit the scope of the path, and I am not in favor of that. R from other post:I didn't plan this or ask for it but it become an energizer, an encouragement for me. I am under no illusions about attaining jhana anytime soon, maybe not in this lifetime, but I think it is worth noting that someone may have conditions develop, just as you would say it, that bring such an idea into their mind and become an encouragement for them to go further on the path. The idea of one day attaining jhana, while not a discernment in the moment, may give energy to discernment in the moment. -------- N: Such thoughts have happened already, they are conditioned by accumulated inclinations, stemming from the past. As you say, you did not plan thinking the way you do. Realizing this fact is a great help to understand anatta. We can come to realize that thinking is a conditioned nama, just a dhamma, not self, and this brings us to the present moment. -------- > R: I think we need positive ideas > about the potential of the path to keep us moving forward, especially > if we understand that they are not presently realities. -------- N: The Path is all about present realities, because those can be understood thoroughly, as they are. The Buddha encourages us to know the present reality, no matter it is seeing or thinking of jhana: We read in the “Bhaddekaratta Sutta of Lomasakangiya” the following verses: The past should not be followed after, the future not desired. What is past is got rid of and the future has not come. But whoever has vision now here, now there of a present dhamma, The unmovable, unshakable, let him cultivate it . Swelter at the task this very day. Who knows whether he will die tomorrow? There is no bargaining with the great hosts of Death. Thus abiding ardently, unwearied day and night, He indeed is “Auspicious” called, described as a sage at peace. ***** Nina. #95455 From: "Scott" Date: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:09 am Subject: Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner scottduncan2 Dear All, Continuing: The Path of Purification. "35. And he performed not only these wonders but also many others too such as those told in the Maatuposaka Birth Story (Jaa.iv,90). Now it is in the highest degree improper and unbecoming to you to arouse thoughts of resentment, since you are emulating your Master that Blessed One who reached omniscience and who has in the special quality of patience no equal in the world with its deities.'" Path of Purity. "Not merely these, but other various wondrous acts also the Teacher did in the Maahuposaka (Jaataka iv, 90) and other Jaatakas. Now it is not fitting, not at all proper that thou shouldst harbour a heart of hatred, seeing that thou has acknowledged as thy Teacher the Blessed One who has attained to omniscience and who possesses such qualities of patience as are not possessed by anyone in the world of men and in the world of devas." Na kevala~nca etaaneva, a~n~naanipi maatuposakajaatakaadiisu anekaani acchariyaani akaasi. Tassa te idaani sabba~n~nuta.m patta.m sadevaloke kenaci appa.tisamakhantigu.naṃ ta.m bhagavanta.m satthaaraṃ apadisato pa.tighacitta.m naama uppaadetu.m ativiya ayutta.m appatiruupanti. Sincerely, Scott. #95456 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Wed Jan 28, 2009 7:08 am Subject: Re: What the Buddha said... to whom? abhidhammika Dear Ken H, Howard, Robert Epstein, Alex, Herman, Alberto, colette, Nina, Robert K, Sarah, Jon and all How are you? Ken wrote: "I think I referred to a certain manuscript in which detailed instructions for "walking-vipassana-meditation" were given. It was written by a well known Burmese Sayadaw. It instructed the meditator to concentrate on his foot as he was intending to lift it off the floor. The meditator was to mentally note "Intending . . .Intending . . . Intending . . ." Then, as the foot was lifted, he was to note "Lifting . . . Lifting . . . " And so on - "moving" "placing" etc - and back to "intending" (for the other foot)." Suan replies: I do not have that manuscript you referred to. As such, there was no possibility that you and I would have had any conversation whatsoever regarding that manuscript and the content therein. Ken also wrote: "That sounds like good material for discussion. I would like to see if those texts resemble "instructions" that can be followed at will. Or are they descriptions of the conditioned dhamma, panna, in various stages of development?" English translations of Mahaa satipa.t.thaana Suttam by various authors are available both in print and online. You need to read one of them seriously before you can discuss with me in this thread. The methods in this great Suttam are indeed instructions to follow either at will (asankhaarikam) or by making personal effort or by being persuaded or motivated by good well-wishers such as friends or family members or meditation instructor or societal culture such as living in a Buddhist country (sasankhaarikam). The Pali terms asankhaarikam and sasankhaarikam can be found in the chapter called "Cittaparicchedo" in Abhidhamatthasangaho, a primary level introductory Abhiddhamma text. These terms show how a mental event can arise. If you believe that the Buddhist practitioners cannot follow the Buddha's instructions at will, then you are against Pali Abhidhamma texts, which duly teach the phenomenon of asankhaarikam. Ken, as one of those so-called KS folks, you seriously need to improve your memory. Because of your memory perversion (saññaavippalaaso), you misrepresented me by accusing me of saying things that I never said. This accusation also amounted to discrediting me, and was responsible for displeasure to arise in me. To correct your wrong, I had to write unnecessary replies to you, thereby wasting my time and energy. These unnecessary replies should have been avoidable if you did not misrepresent me by falling prey to memory perversion (saññaavippalaaso). Now, the question is why you are having such a serious case of memory perversion (saññaavippalaaso). The answer is that you, as one of KS folks, downplay the efficacy of formal Buddhist meditation. Your KS folks' way of understanding of paramattha dhammas did not prevent you from having memory perversion (saññaavippalaaso) at all. Here is my request. If you were honestly sorry for misrepresenting me and discrediting me and for causing displeasure in me, please cure your memory perversion (saññaavippalaaso) by choosing a suitable meditation method in Mahaa Satipa.t.thaana Suttam and following the Buddha's instructions therein as best you can. If you failed to follow my request, then your apology is useless and invalid. Best wishes, Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org #95457 From: "szmicio" Date: Wed Jan 28, 2009 7:09 am Subject: ruppana.t.thena szmicio In Dispeller of Delusion, Khandhavibhanga. The rupa is classified by way of being molested. Why is that? Best wishes Lukas #95458 From: "dkotschessa" Date: Wed Jan 28, 2009 7:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Lobha and Kamma-pathas ADL Chapter 5 dkotschessa --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > D: Just fine points, nothing major. (Though in Abhidhamma I suppose > > it's all about the details). > ------- > N: Yes, details are important. The Abhidhamma is very precise and > this is valuable to understand the many different cittas. Cittas are > so intricate arising because of diverse conditions. The Buddha > realized them all at the moment of his enlightenment. > ------ > Nina. Thank you once again. -DaveK #95459 From: "szmicio" Date: Wed Jan 28, 2009 8:10 am Subject: Re: Q.[dsg] Beginner abhidhamma questions szmicio Dear Nina(all Dhamma friends) It's great topic to ask my questions. > N: Your kamma has nothing to do with someone else's akusala. L: We think a lot about external world: about people, about their kamma, which has influence on our own life. But they are only concepts, which impinge on mind-door. Only cittas which has pa~n~natti as its object, arise and fall away. It's happening now. It's 100 times better to know this then think about kamma and vipaka. I think so. I have some questions about external world. I think it's very hard to know external world, and we cannot know it until we do not experience internal world first. In Khandhavibhango, Vibhangapali, The Blessed One said: "Tattha katamo ruupakkhandho? Ya.m ki~nci ruupa.m atiitaanaagatapaccuppanna.m ajjhatta.m vaa bahiddhaa vaa o.laarika.m vaa sukhuma.m vaa hiina.m vaa pa.niita.m vaa ya.m duure santike vaa, tadekajjha.m abhisa~n~nuuhitvaa abhisa"nkhipitvaa – aya.m vuccati ruupakkhandho" He's described ruupakkhandha in eleven instances.(The other 4 namakhandhas are also the same). "vaa ajjhatta.m vaa bahiddhaa" Means what is internal and what is external. Further on we read: "Tattha katama.m ruupa.m ajjhatta.m? Ya.m ruupa.m tesa.m tesa.m sattaana.m ajjhatta.m paccatta.m niyaka.m paa.tipuggalika.m upaadinna.m, cattaaro ca mahaabhuutaa catunna~nca mahaabhuutaana.m upaadaayaruupa.m – ida.m vuccati ruupa.m ajjhatta.m." "Therein what is internal material quality? That material quality which, for this or that being, is personal, self-referable, one's own, individual and is grasped(br craving and self view)(i.e.,) the four great essentials and the material qualities derived from the four great essentials. This is called internal material quality " (PTS transl.) "Tattha katama.m ruupa.m bahiddhaa? Ya.m ruupa.m tesa.m tesa.m parasattaana.m parapuggalaana.m ajjhatta.m paccatta.m niyaka.m paa.tipuggalika.m upaadinna.m, cattaaro ca mahaabhuutaa catunna~nca mahaabhuutaana.m upaadaayaruupa.m – ida.m vuccati ruupa.m bahiddhaa." "Therein what is external material quality? That material quality which, for this or that other being, for other persons is personal, self-referable, one's own, individual and is grasped(br craving and self view)(i.e.,) the four great essentials and the material qualities derived from the four great essentials. This is called internal material quality " (PTS transl.) Recently I think a lot about this passages, and has a lot of doubts. I am not sure I am going in good direction. So Nina can you explain it for all of us? My Best wishes Lukas #95460 From: "connie" Date: Wed Jan 28, 2009 9:23 am Subject: cornerstone nichiconn Dear Friends, Karunadasa continues: The validity of the two kinds of statement corresponding to sammuti and paramattha is set out as follows: Statements referring to convention-based things (sanketa) are valid because they are based on common agreement; statements referring to ultimate categories (paramattha) are valid because they are based on the true nature of the real existents.142 As shown here, the distinction between the two truths depends on the distinction between sanketa and paramattha. Now, sanketa includes things which depend for their being on mental interpretations superimposed on the category of the real.143 For instance, the validity of the term "table" is based, not on an objective existent corresponding to the term, but on mental interpretation superimposed on a congeries of material dhammas organized in a particular manner. Although a table is not a separate reality distinct from the material dhammas that enter into its composition, nevertheless the table is said to exist because in common parlance it is accepted as a separate reality. On the other hand, the term paramattha denotes the category of real existents (dhammas) which have their own objective nature (sabhava). Their difference may be set out as follows: When a particular situation is explained on the basis of terms indicative of the real elements of existence (the dhammas), that explanation is paramattha-sacca. When the self-same situation is explained on the basis of terms indicative of things which have their being dependent on the mind's synthetic function (i.e. pannatti), that explanation is sammuti-sacca. The validity of the former is based on its correspondence to the ultimate data of empirical reality. The validity of the latter is based on its correspondence to things established by conventions. notes: 142. (A I 54; KvuA 34; DA I 251) 143. See SS vv.3ff. to be continued, connie #95461 From: "dkotschessa" Date: Wed Jan 28, 2009 9:50 am Subject: Re: ruppana.t.thena dkotschessa --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "szmicio" wrote: > > In Dispeller of Delusion, Khandhavibhanga. > The rupa is classified by way of being molested. Why is that? > > Best wishes > Lukas > This might help. From Bhikkhu Bodhi's "A comprehensive manual of the Abhidhamma" The Pali word for matter, rupa, is explained by derivation from the verb ruppati, which means 'to be deformed, disturbed, knocked about, oppressed, broken'. The commentators maintain that 'matter is so called because it undegoes and imposes alteration owing to adverse physical conditions such as cold and heat, etc.' The Buddha himself explanation of the term 'matter' or 'material form,' declares: "And why, monks, do you say material form (ruppa)? It is deformed (ruppati), therefore it is called material form. Deformed by what? Deformed by cold, by heat, by hunger, by thirst, by flies, mosquitoes, wind, sunburn, and creeping things." (S.22:79/iii, 86) -- (Rupasagahavibhaga, p.234-235), #95462 From: "dkotschessa" Date: Wed Jan 28, 2009 10:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] thesis on Sujin Boriharnwanaket dkotschessa --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Epstein" > Robert, I share, though not so creatively, Colette's enthusiasm here. There are teachers who encourage jhanic cultivation even to lay people, with the understanding that it is difficult and one will have to apply themselves very heavily to virtue and a simple kind of life. Bhante Gunaratana, author of "Mindfulness in plain English" leads Jhana retreats for lay practitioners. There are extensive talks on the bhavana society website about jhana, (www.bhavanasociety.org) and he has written quite a bit about it too. I think the discussion can get over complicated with too much jargon. There are so many benefits to meditation simply in regard to being able to temper one's own greed and anger and such, that for that reason alone I think it's of great benefit, even if one does not attain jhana proper. In order to attain Jhana, the Buddha laid out specific meditative practices for overcoming the five hindrances. If we make any progress whatsoever in overcoming the hindrances, then I think it is well worth the effort. In doing that we set up better circumstances for ourselves in the immediate and long term. A simple fact: if there is an area in which we are weak, we should strengthen it, not abandon it. I still can't believe I hear people say that we don't have the right paramis for Jhana, so we shouldn't try. That's like telling your toddler he's obviously no good at walking so he should stick with crawling. The paramis don't come out of thin air. They are cultivated over lifetimes of effort. To [even attempt to] practice jhana is to cultivate qualities like virtue, renunciation, patience, determination and forbearance. That's half of the paramis you can develop just by sitting there. -DaveK #95463 From: "szmicio" Date: Wed Jan 28, 2009 10:42 am Subject: Re: ruppana.t.thena szmicio Dear Dave > This might help. From Bhikkhu Bodhi's "A comprehensive manual of > the Abhidhamma" > > > The Pali word for matter, rupa, is explained by derivation from the > verb ruppati, which means 'to be deformed, disturbed, knocked about, > oppressed, broken'. The commentators maintain that 'matter is so > called because it undegoes and imposes alteration owing to adverse > physical conditions such as cold and heat, etc.' The Buddha himself > explanation of the term 'matter' or 'material form,' declares: "And > why, monks, do you say material form (ruppa)? It is deformed > (ruppati), therefore it is called material form. Deformed by what? > Deformed by cold, by heat, by hunger, by thirst, by flies, > mosquitoes, wind, sunburn, and creeping things." (S.22:79/iii, 86) > -- (Rupasagahavibhaga, p.234-235), L: Generally Dispeller of Delusion describes it in similar way as you quoted above. But my quesion is why is that so? I am a little surprise why Buddha described materiality by way of being molested. I thought that rupa is neutral, because it doesn't experience anything. For rupa it doesn't matter whether it is cold or heat. rupa doesn't know anything, so why Buddha described it in such way? I also thought that rupa has no preferences. Thanks for you quote. My Best wishes Lukas #95464 From: "dkotschessa" Date: Wed Jan 28, 2009 11:27 am Subject: Re: ruppana.t.thena dkotschessa --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "szmicio" wrote: > L: Generally Dispeller of Delusion describes it in similar way as you > quoted above. But my quesion is why is that so? > I am a little surprise why Buddha described materiality by way of > being molested. I thought that rupa is neutral, because it doesn't > experience anything. For rupa it doesn't matter whether it is cold or > heat. rupa doesn't know anything, so why Buddha described it in such > way? > > I also thought that rupa has no preferences. > > Thanks for you quote. > My Best wishes > Lukas I think we are not supposed to take this as a *definition* of form. The definition of form is always the four properties. But I think this is a pun that the Buddha was using in order to make a point. The Buddha used puns a lot, not as jokes, but as teaching devices. Fortunately in this case it actually works in english as well as it did in pali. Rupa - form, ruppati - deformed. Form doesn't have "preferences" of course, but it is still a conditioned phenomenah. It is anicca, (impermanent) anatta (notself) and dukkha (unsatisfactory, in this context). A physical object consists of the four properties, which are in a constant state of flux and subject to decay. Thus it is "Deformed by cold, by heat, by hunger, by thirst, by flies, mosquitoes, wind, sunburn, and creeping things." Clearly he is talking about the physical body here. It's subject to all these things - why would we want it? The Buddha always wants us to look at things in the conditioned world as being unsatisfactory so we could incline our minds towards the unconditioned. If something is deformed, why would you claim it as "I," "mine," or "myself?" I think that's what's being taught here. -DaveK #95465 From: "connie" Date: Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:14 pm Subject: Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. nichiconn Dear Herman, H: Could I ask you why you believe knowledge of the citta-vittha theory with its 17 mind-moments etc to be important, when the Buddha was silent about it? c: I can't be so sure of what all the Buddha did or didn't say or that we fully understand what we do accept as being what he did say; for instance, to the old "did he teach the 'two realities theory' or was it 'commentarial invention'" question: -- KS i, 8, I, 2 $10 (Samiddhi): [...] Then the Exalted One adressed the fairy in verses: - Men, 'ware alone of what is told by names, Take up their stand on what is so expressed. If this they have not rightly understood, They go their ways under the yoke of death. [...] Seems to me, he taught it. Also, I think we don't hear a lot of what he says when he gives a meditation subject & once in awhile we read something to the effect that "until now I haven't mentioned this"; so there's always the possibility of 'that other leaf'. I don't think the texts have to say "the Buddha himself said" but think Sakka was onto something when he said: << 'It is marvellous, it is wonderful, sir, how truly this has been said by the venerable Uttara: "Whatsoever be well spoken, all that is the word of the Exalted One, arahant, the fully awakened One, wholly based thereon is what we and others say"!' >> (GS: Bk of Eights, Ch.1, viii). I think the early Elders / Commentators / Teachers had "that". I don't mind if someone doesn't want to read what they had to say, but (again with the cautions!): << He who lacks veneration for the Teacher, Dhamma, the Order, the training, concentration and earnestness, lacks veneration also for goodwill. >> (Book of Sevens); quite enough for me to dislike seeing that "bookworm" learning discouraged or discounted. Is the "mind-moments process theory" vital information? Who knows what each person's missing piece will be or how long they'll hold it before it just fits into place? Would the Buddha teach a more modern "theory" today? No point in thinking about it. For one, the time was then. For two, dhammas are no different now from then. Surely, though, I think this particular "theory" passes "the brief test": << But the doctrines of which you know: "These doctrines lead one to complete weariness, dispassion, ending, calm, knowledge, the awakening, the cool" - regard them unreservedly as Dhamma, the discipline, the word of the Teacher.' >> (GS Eights, ch.8, ix(79) The message; and elsewhere). peace, connie #95466 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Jan 28, 2009 1:06 pm Subject: Re: thesis on Sujin Boriharnwanaket kenhowardau Hi Robert Ep (and Suan), I seem to have touched a nerve! :-) With you and Suan! I am not terribly apologetic about this because I know I didn't mean any disrespect. My use of the word 'ritual' is different from yours. The problem is that we have vastly different understandings of what Buddhism is all about. If I am right then you and Suan must be wrong. If you and/or Suan are right then I must be wrong. Either way, someone is going to be insulted. Ken H #95467 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Jan 28, 2009 1:20 pm Subject: Re: What the Buddha said... to whom? kenhowardau Hi Suan, Don't let this misunderstanding distract you just when the thread was getting interesting. Please proceed with the interrogation as promised. Ken H #95468 From: John Murray Date: Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:03 pm Subject: Re:Newbie johnramurray Thanks, Nina. That was very interesting. John #95469 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:07 pm Subject: Re: What the Buddha said... to whom? kenhowardau Hi Herman, ------------- <. . .> KH: > > What are you suggesting? That there is no ultimate reality? Only concepts? > > H: > Yep. Apart from nibbana, that is. All consciousness is conceptual. ---------------- I am tempted to say "Interesting, tell me more!" But this is a Dhamma discussion group: there is no time here for any explanations of the world other than the Buddha's. And please don't tell me that *was* the Buddha's explanation. When we want to get someone to listen to our personal ramblings the oldest trick in the book is to begin them with "the Buddha said." :-) ------------------------- <. . .> H: > But if Dhamma Discussion does not relate to how the world works, then perhaps down the hall there are better options :-) I say that because, as far as I can tell, your views consist mainly of a denial of every thing that happens, and instead firmly re-iterating that there is only the present. Hardly a discussion, hey what? -------------------------- Here, we are poles apart. I can't think of anything more interesting than an explanation of the universe that condenses everything down to a few, presently arisen, mental and physical phenomena. Sa la vie! :-) Ken H #95470 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:36 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Shoulds - from Phil sarahprocter... Hi Phil & all, Phil: >Just have to comment (predictably) on this part: >I think there is a kind of cheapening in them [S: i.e. "the deep teachings"] implicit in posts where one is told to see the world in this or that way. I think this negates the pariyatti>patipati patient progression, there is a leaping ahead to try to see the world in an Ariyan manner, there are too many shoulds about insight either explicit or implicit in the A.S approach, I think. .... S: You make some good points. Actually, I don't recall A.Sujin ever telling me there is anything I *should* do in either a conventional or 'deeper' sense. I think that when she (or the Buddha and any of his followers, for that matter) are read or heard to be saying we should develop wisdom or have less defilements, for example, they are merely pointing to conditions and what is the right path without any mis-understanding that there is any Self that can control or make such wisdom occur or reduce defilements in anyway. Understanding that it is the development of panna that has to grow in order for there to be less susceptibility to the worldly conditions, or knowing in theory (yes, pariyatti), that it is the defilements now that are the cause of being disturbed by others, for example, is a condition for patipatti (right practice, right understanding to develop). .... >P: I think that this could end in our missing the boat through overreaching, because we all of us carry very heavy senses of "should" with respect to this one lifetime, it is in our social conditioning no matter what we say about aeons and aeons. Let's let the "shoulds" refer to areas dealing with social relationships, patterns of behaviour, actions in body and speech etc. .... S: I agree with you that because of the strong clinging we have to 'Self', such wrong view is ready to pounce on any words which seem to give an 'escape clause' or encouragement to *DO* something to hasten the path. As Ken H put it, people are always 'asking permission' to *Do* or *practice* in one way or other - whether it be by sitting meditation, becoming a monk, reading books, listening to audio, spending more time at the Foundation or whatever. Like Ken, I don't ever hear K.Sujin as giving that 'permission', but we all hear what we wish to hear at the time. That's why we can attend the same discussion or read the same post here and interpret them very differently. So, I agree with you that we need to (I nearly wrote 'should'!!) formulate our words carefully, but in the end, whatever is written or said, it will be understood according to the tendencies and accumulations of those who read or listen. Even in social realationships or conventional speech, as given in the Suttas, no dhamma ever arises by will or control or *should*, only ever by conditions. This is why we can't read a sutta or two in isolation of the Buddha's strong and clear teaching on dependent arising and the paccayas (conditions). I'd also add that even when friends ask A.Sujin how to cope or what to do with regard to personal circumstances, such as difficulties at home or work, she never responds by saying 'you should do A or B'. She just discusses the realities at this moment - seeing, visible object, metta, anger, thinking and so on. I think the following extract Nina posted from Survey is relevant in this regard. In this, 'S' refers to Sujin, of course: "Q. : If a way of life does not conform to a person's nature, should he force himself to act against his nature? "S. : People should consider cause and effect in the right way*. A great number of monks did not live in a forest. The Buddha did not force people to develop satipatthaana in a forest, in a specific room, or in any other place where they did not have to go for the performing of their tasks. It is true that the Buddha praised the forest life, that he praised a secluded life or whatever else was a condition for the non-arising of lobha, dosa and moha. However, he did not force anybody, he did not establish rules for the development of pa~n~naa. The Buddha clearly knew the different accumulations of people and thus he preached the Dhamma in such a way that his followers would listen and develop right understanding naturally. Thus, they would be able to eliminate defilements. He taught people the development of satipatthaana in their daily lives, in conformity with their status, were they monk or layfollower. "When awareness arises and one begins to consider and study the characteristics of naama and ruupa so that pa~n~naa becomes more accomplished, one's inclinations can gradually be changed. People will be less overcome by lobha, dosa and moha on account of the objects experienced through the sense-doors and through the mind- door. However, accumulated inclinations cannot be changed on the spur of the moment. Some people think that a meditation center should not be repainted, because that would be a condition for lobha. However, when they return to their homes after they have stayed in the center, they have their houses repainted, they plant trees and look after their flowers, thus, they follow their accumulated inclinations." .... P: >Thanks Sarah. You can post that if you want. ... S: As you see, I did. As I said, I appreciated your comments as I always do on this topic (or other topics), which help me to reflect 'deeper'. You *should* share them more often with us, lol:-)). Metta, Sarah *"People should consider cause and effect in the right way." This just means that the considering of cause and effect can be understood rightly or wrongly. Pa~n~naa can develop from careful listening and considering to understand that at this moment, dhammas arise by conditions, not by any Self controlling them in anyway. ======== #95471 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:51 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Jhaana. Abhidhamma. sarahprocter... Hi Rob E (& Herman), --- On Tue, 27/1/09, Robert Epstein wrote: >H:> 'Come, friends, remain focused on the body in & of itself � being > ardent, alert, unified, clear-minded, concentrated, & single-minded > for knowledge of the body as it actually is. Remain focused on > feelings in & of themselves.. . focused on the mind in & of itself... > focused on mental qualities in & of themselves � being ardent, alert, > unified, clear-minded, concentrated, & single-minded for knowledge of > mental qualities as they actually are.' ... R: >That is very clear, Herman.... .... S: What do you 'clearly' understand by 'focused' here? You may like to review what is meant by 'focused' in the Pali/other translations, such as in these messages: #88961, #88974 Metta, Sarah ==== #95472 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:55 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What the Buddha said... to whom? sarahprocter... Hi Ken H (Suan, Colette & all), --- On Tue, 27/1/09, kenhowardau wrote: >There is some difference of opinion among the "no-controllers" as to whether or not those activities can be called "formal meditation." However, it is a minor point about language - not about control over dhammas. All of the "no-controllers" agree that there is no efficacy (no inherent characteristic, good or bad, right or wrong) in any concept. And that includes any concept of meditation - samatha or vipassana! ... S: Yes and also agree that there is only 'one way', 'one path' - that of satipatthana, beginning with the right understanding (and associated factors) of whatever nama or rupa appears now. Metta, Sarah ====== #95473 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jan 28, 2009 3:07 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. sarahprocter... Hi Herman & all, --- On Tue, 27/1/09, Herman Hofman wrote: >> S: Again, whilst reflecting on bodily parts, charnel grounds or > anything else, the thinking and the various mental states arising, > such as calm or aversion, are real and can be known, if such > reflection is NOW! H:> If one is satisfied with a loose version of NOW, then yes. But if one goes to the extremes of alleged "individual" cittas, then NO. .... S: One citta only at a time. The understanding has to grow to become more and more precise, otherwise the impermanence (and unsatisfactoriness) of dhammas can never be known. ... H:> For instance, the physics of seeing makes it clear that seeing at the eye is two dimensional. However, what we see is a three-dimensional world. There is no discursive thought that accompanies this mental creation, one cannot become aware of the 3-D world being thought. .... S: However, this (what you say) is just thinking. There is no thinking at the moment of seeing consciousness and yet awareness can be aware of the characteristic of seeing and of the visible object that's seen, *exactly as it is*, not as physics says it must be. ... H:> Also, reflection is never on the immediate present. ... S: No, reflection is on a concept about anyting - charnel grounds or the next meal, for example. However, such reflection is real and when it appears now to sati, can be known. For the development of satipatthana, it doesn't matter in the slightest what the reflection is on or whether it is kusala or akusala. It's a dhamma that can be known now! Metta, Sarah ============ #95474 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jan 28, 2009 3:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vipassanaa, Survey Ch 34, no. 12. sarahprocter... Hi Herman, --- On Fri, 23/1/09, Herman Hofman wrote: > S: As Ken H put it once, whether we're talking about rocks or humans: > "There are only dhammas, and they are disinterestedly rolling on in > accordance with conditions" ... H:> Thank you for expressing the view that dhammas disinterestedly roll along. I'm trying very hard to imagine the cetasika named interest being without interest. It's not working. Have I missed something? .... S: :-) Let me suggest that it's not working because it's you, Herman, trying so hard, rather than disinterested dhammas rolling on. There is no self, no Herman,, that can make any kind of thinking or anything else arise at will as you prove so well here! For example, chanda cetasika has the characteristic of 'interest in' its object. When it arises by conditions, it takes an interest, but even so, it 'disinterestedly rolls on':-). From Vism XX, 102: "The Method of Uninterestedness becomes evident to him through seeing rise and fall according to condition owing to his discovery of the inability of states to have mastery exercised over them. Then he more thoroughly abandons the self view." Metta, Sarah ========== #95475 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Wed Jan 28, 2009 3:55 pm Subject: Re: Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner sarahprocter... Dear Scott (Rob E & all), I thought that your writing on "the development of mettaa" in #95281 was really excellent and would like anyone who didn't read it to take another look. Thanks to Rob E for encouraging such excellent discussions recently. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott" wrote: > Me: "How can an act conditioned by a belief that by will one can > create proper conditions that will lead to anything wholesome?" > > R: "Do you think this also applies to the practice of generating metta > in relation to 'living beings' who are also just a concept?" > > Scott: Yes, I do. I'd replace the confusing phrase 'practise of > generating mettaa' with 'the development of mettaa', and then I would not misunderstand 'development' to mean something someone does, > rather, I would understand 'development' to apply only to the dhamma > 'mettaa' and the manner in which, with frequent arising, mettaa > becomes strengthened according to appropriate conditions. .... S: And the following was the para I particularly liked: >Scott: Simply thinking, 'This I will do' is not sufficient condition for that thing to be done. Other conditions must also be in place. These are not subject to control. One wouldn't think, for example, that by willing, one could cause the Path to arise. Since the dhammas which constitute the Path are subject to the same laws of conditionality as would be mettaa, one needn't then think that, by act of will, anyone can cause mettaa to arise. Mettaa, like the other dhammaa which, with development, constitute the arising of the Path, requires development. And this development can come about due only to certain conditions and not others. .... metta, Sarah ======== #95476 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:01 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: anapana. The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. sarahprocter... Dear Sachin, --- On Sat, 24/1/09, sachin bahade wrote: >how i know, the anapaan i am doing is perfect ... Welcome to DSG! I think the simple answer is that only pa~n~naa, right understanding can know what is 'perfect' and what is 'imperfect'. This is why it's helpful to consider and discuss a lot about the Dhamma. Otherwise it's very easy to take that which feels calm and peaceful for being 'perfect' when really it may just be attachment to pleasant feelings. Let us know anymore about your interest and practice if you'd care to. Where do you live? Metta, Sarah ======== #95477 From: Herman Hofman Date: Wed Jan 28, 2009 5:03 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. egberdina Hi connie, 2009/1/29 connie : > Dear Herman, > > > Is the "mind-moments process theory" vital information? Who knows what each person's missing piece will be or how long they'll hold it before it just fits into place? Would the Buddha teach a more modern "theory" today? No point in thinking about it. For one, the time was then. For two, dhammas are no different now from then. Surely, though, I think this particular "theory" passes "the brief test": << But the doctrines of which you know: "These doctrines lead one to complete weariness, dispassion, ending, calm, knowledge, the awakening, the cool" - regard them unreservedly as Dhamma, the discipline, the word of the Teacher.' >> (GS Eights, ch.8, ix(79) The message; and elsewhere). > Thanks for the clarification. It is much appreciated. The interesting thing is that for me the particular theory does fail the brief test. I guess that it is impossible to remove the subjective aspect of the path. Cheers Herman #95478 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Wed Jan 28, 2009 5:36 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. sarahprocter... Hi Howard (& Alberto), I think there may be a misunderstanding here: >A: Tipitaka never mentions miccha samadhi, akusala dhammas, among the > conditions for the arising of samma samadhi/samatha or satipatthana, > kusala dhammas. > -------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I believe you are mistaken in this. In the Upanisa Sutta you will find > the following: > > Thus, monks, ignorance is the supporting condition for kamma formations, <...> dispassion is > the supporting condition for emancipation, and emancipation is the supporting > condition for the knowledge of the destruction (of the cankers). <...> > Please compare the early conditions on the 1st two of these lines > (akusala) with those later ones on the last two (kusala). > ---------------------------------------------------- .... S: It's true, as you say, Howard that ignorance and other akusala states can be a condition for kusala states. This is by upanissaya paccaya, decisive support condition and as we see in the Upanisa Sutta, ignorance is indeed a condition indirectly for all other conditioned dhammas in this way. If there were no ignorance, there'd be no birth, no arising of any state. However, I understand Alberto to be referring to the 'right' path and the 'wrong' path. There are right and wrong path factors. Miccha ditthi, miccha samadhi and so on, are wrong path factors directly leading to the development of the wrong path, not the right path. So, whilst, I agree with you that miccha samadhi can be upanissaya paccaya be a condition indirectly for kusala states to arise, the Buddha certainly never encouraged its development. This is because, at each moment of miccha samadhi, more of the same accumulates. Actually, it can also be a condition for sammma ditthi, samma samadhi and so on by being the object of satipatthana. At such a time it's known for what it is - 'wrong' and not to be pursued. ... >A: The the proximate cause for the arising of sati given by Visuddhi > magga is samma pariyatti. > MN 43 gives two conditions for the arising of right view, panna, the > voice of another, i.e. pariyatti, and wise attention/consideration, > yoniso manasikara. ... S: This is what Alberto is referring to - the 'direct' conditions, without which, there can never be the development of the path. Please ignore this if it has been cleared up in later messages in the thread. In any case, I think you made some good points - indicating that that miccha factors can also be a condition for samma factors. Metta, Sarah ========= #95479 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jan 28, 2009 1:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - .... S: It's true, as you say, Howard that ignorance and other akusala states can be a condition for kusala states. This is by upanissaya paccaya, decisive support condition and as we see in the Upanisa Sutta, ignorance is indeed a condition indirectly for all other conditioned dhammas in this way. If there were no ignorance, there'd be no birth, no arising of any state. However, I understand Alberto to be referring to the 'right' path and the 'wrong' path. There are right and wrong path factors. Miccha ditthi, miccha samadhi and so on, are wrong path factors directly leading to the development of the wrong path, not the right path. -------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't know what this "wrong path" is supposed to be. Certainly there are mistaken versions of useful conditions, but otherwise I'm not sure what this is about. As for the noble 8-fold path, we don't use that term in the same way. For me it is a path of intentional practice, taught by the Buddha and leading, often across aeons, to awakening. But your idea is something that occurs in a split second - an awakening, I guess some would say. So, it's apples & oranges, Sarah. ----------------------------------------- So, whilst, I agree with you that miccha samadhi can be upanissaya paccaya be a condition indirectly for kusala states to arise, the Buddha certainly never encouraged its development. --------------------------------------- Howard: I didn't think that was being debated. The Buddha encouraged right effort, right mindfulness, and right concentration, together being right samadhi. --------------------------------------- This is because, at each moment of miccha samadhi, more of the same accumulates. Actually, it can also be a condition for sammma ditthi, samma samadhi and so on by being the object of satipatthana. At such a time it's known for what it is - 'wrong' and not to be pursued. ------------------------------------------ Howard: I understood Alberto to be saying that akusala conditions cannot lead to awakening. If he didn't mean that he might have said so. The Upanisa Sutta certainly confirms that among the conditions for awakening are akusala ones, even extremely akusala ones, including dukkha. As for dukkha, though, Alberto seems to say that the dukkha mentioned in that sutta is actually pa~n~na, and with a statement along such lines, I'm disinclined to continue with the discussion. ------------------------------------------- ... >A: The the proximate cause for the arising of sati given by Visuddhi > magga is samma pariyatti. > MN 43 gives two conditions for the arising of right view, panna, the > voice of another, i.e. pariyatti, and wise attention/consideration, > yoniso manasikara. ... S: This is what Alberto is referring to - the 'direct' conditions, without which, there can never be the development of the path. ------------------------------------------ Howard: Sarah, I'm sorry, but I'm not getting anything out of this. ------------------------------------------ Please ignore this if it has been cleared up in later messages in the thread. ------------------------------------------ Howard: "Fraid not. ;-) ---------------------------------------- In any case, I think you made some good points - indicating that that miccha factors can also be a condition for samma factors. ------------------------------------------ Howard: I'm glad you agree with that, truly - for it is obviously true. ------------------------------------------ Metta, Sarah ========================== With metta, Howard (Anonymous) #95480 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jan 28, 2009 7:25 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. sarahprocter... Hi Howard, --- On Thu, 29/1/09, upasaka@... wrote: --------- ----- >Howard: I don't know what this "wrong path" is supposed to be. Certainly there are mistaken versions of useful conditions, but otherwise I'm not sure what this is about. ... S: There is a right path and a wrong path. For example, there is a whole set of suttas in AN about these. Here's one which Tep quoted before: >Avijja Sutta AN 10.61 >3. "Monks, ignorance precedes demerit, followed by lack of shame and remorse. Monks, to the ignorant not seeing one, wrong view arises. To one with wrong view wrong thoughts arise, to one with wrong thoughts wrong speech, to one with wrong speech wrong action, to one with wrong action wrong livelihood, to one with wrong livelihood wrong endeavor, to one with wrong endeavor wrong establishment of mindfulness and to one with wrong establishment of mindfulness wrong concentration arises. .... >4. "Monks, knowledge precedes merit, followed by shame and remorse. Monks, to the knowing, seeing one, right view arises. To one with right view right thoughts arise, to one with right thoughts right speech, to one with right speech right action, to one with right action right livelihood, to one with right livelihood right endeavor, to one with right endeavor right establishment of mindfulness and to one with right establishment of mindfulness right concentration arises." .... H:> As for the noble 8-fold path, we don't use that term in the same way. For me it is a path of intentional practice, taught by the Buddha and leading, often across aeons, to awakening. But your idea is something that occurs in a split second - an awakening, .... S: I understand the noble 8fold path as referred to in the texts to refer to the "split-second of awakening" and also, in context, to the path leading to that "split-second of awakening". Clearly, there cannot be this "split-second" if thre hadn't been aeons of development of the 'right' path factors, arising according to a myriad of complex conditions. I'm sure you'll agree that even what we take for being 'intentional practice' consists of various conditioned dhammas. .... ------------ --------- --------- --------- -- So, whilst, I agree with you that miccha samadhi can be upanissaya paccaya be a condition indirectly for kusala states to arise, the Buddha certainly never encouraged its development. ------------ --------- --------- --------- Howard: I didn't think that was being debated. The Buddha encouraged right effort, right mindfulness, and right concentration, together being right samadhi. ------------ --------- --------- --------- S: We're all agreed here, so I'll leave it at this point! Metta, Sarah ====== #95481 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Wed Jan 28, 2009 7:44 pm Subject: Jhana thesis on Sujin Boriharnwanaket rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "dkotschessa" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Epstein" > > > > > Robert, I share, though not so creatively, Colette's enthusiasm > here. There are teachers who encourage jhanic cultivation even to > lay people, with the understanding that it is difficult and one will > have to apply themselves very heavily to virtue and a simple kind of > life. Bhante Gunaratana, author of "Mindfulness in plain English" > leads Jhana retreats for lay practitioners. There are extensive > talks on the bhavana society website about jhana, > (www.bhavanasociety.org) and he has written quite a bit about it too. > Dear Group One of the interesting things I find about modern proponents of jhana is how different they seem from the understanding of jhana in Theravada. Take the monk mentioned above. He claims that one can be in mundane jhana and develop vipassana. Wow, what an amazing departure from the teaching of the ancients that is. http://www.bhavanasociety.org/pdfs/Should_...ut_of_Jhana.pdf 1 Should we come out of Jhåna to practice Vipassanå? By Bhante Henepola Gunaratana """The Meditator does not become one with the object. When we attain any Jhåna, we don't become one with the meditation object. Meditation objects are like launching pads. We use them to train the mind to gain right concentration, which, as we have seen already, is one-pointedness of mind, not onepointedness of the meditation object. We use an object to start the meditation practice."""""" The diversity of views about what jhana is and how one should practice them are are wide indeed among modern teachers. But, what is agreed is that you should just practice, it will all be ok. What must not be done is to infer that jhana is not the way to devlop vipassana, or that people now may be better off learning what the Buddha taught and the way of vipassana. Hinting that jhana is difficult is really really wrong. http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/6774/jhanantp.htm >>>>>""""An interesting thing that I have observed that holds for most teachers of Jhana is that they tend to regard all Jhana methods with concentration levels less than their own as "not authentic, not real Jhanas", and they tend to regard all methods with concentration levels stronger than their own as "indulging, not useful." Given the diversity outlined above, several possible conclusions can be drawn: Mistakes in the above are quite possible! There are a number of different ways to interpret the ancient literature about the Jhanas. We don't really know exactly what type of Jhanas the Buddha and his disciples were practicing. >>>end quote . """"""""" Robert #95482 From: TGrand458@... Date: Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:55 pm Subject: Re: Clarification Re: [dsg] Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. TGrand458@... Hi Alberto In a message dated 1/28/2009 12:13:15 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, sprlrt@... writes: Hi TG, --- In _dhammastudygroup@dhammastudygdha_ (mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com) , TGrand458@.., TG > > I love this. Now we have "conventional suffering." > > > I'll be looking forward to finding all about "ultimate suffering." > Maybe I > can experience it "now"! > Impossible, selves can only experience conventional truth, not ultimate dhammas, all anatta by definition, and dukkha. It's a bit like expecting to suntan in the moonlight... Alberto ........................................................... TG: There are no "selves." TG OUT #95483 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jan 28, 2009 8:41 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] truth and prepared seats sarahprocter... Dear Connie, --- On Fri, 23/1/09, connie wrote: >some time back i said something about having heard that all the precepts, esp. that on speaking the truth were based on the idea of non-harming but I didn't & still don't have any reference. I wonder, though, if the idea might have come from a somewhat casual reading of the following from the Book of Fours: (185) Braahmin truths. [...] 'Well, Wanderers, these four braahmin truths have been set forth by myself after fully comprehending and realizing them for myself. What four? In this case, Wanderers, **the braahmin says thus: "All living things are not to be harmed."^2 So saying, a braahmin speaks truth, not falsehood.** Therein he has no conceit of "recluse" or "brahmin." He has no conceit of "better am I," "equal am I," "inferior am I." Moreover by fully comprehending the truth contained in that saying he is bent on the practice of mercy and compassion for all living things. [...] That part about so saying... is repeated after each of the other truths, .... S: Thank you for quoting this sutta. I'll take a look on return. Through the development of undersanding, there is no harming of other beings. All the precepts are kept. Also, I'm thinking about how speaking the truth refers to kusala cittas which are gentle, not harming others. ... >but check out the footnote for this first one!: p183 n2: Avajjhaa. Text strangely reads avijjaa (?). .... S: OK, later. ... >I also thought it was interesting that "when the Exalted One reached those Wanderers, on coming to them he sat down on a seat made ready." Was that prepared seat a fairly common thing, then and not just something 'our' bhikkhus did? ... S: The Buddha's vipaka, I believe. Metta, Sarah ======= #95484 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jan 28, 2009 9:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. sarahprocter... Hi TG & all*, --- On Tue, 27/1/09, TGrand458@... wrote: >> S: But can such practice, such insight ever be at anytime other than *now*? > Is there ever another time? If so what? ............ ......... ......... ......... ......... .. >TG: The more I read this "now" thesis, the more it sounds like a plain old ordinary (and somewhat banal) description of the present. Of course the present is "now." ... S: Good! So there's only "now" and can we agree that any practice, any understanding can therefore only be "now"? .... .... TG:> I'll concede that the "present" isn't "was" or "will be." Never though it was...I mean "now" I think -- never thought it was. ;-) "Now" I am going to sign off and I "now" hope that you have a nice day. I will "now" hit the "send now" button. Hummmm "send now"? Jesus, E-Mail is enlightened! ;-) Opps. They also say "send later." We all know you can't "send later," you can only "send now"! Must be Mahayanists or something writing these programs eh? .... S: Lol, well, we all know those Mahayanists corrupted the teachings by programming in all kinds of avoidance techniques for not understanding realities NOW!! Metta, Sarah *p.s I'm very close to signing off for a couple of days at least as we have our long trip back to Hong Kong tomorrow, leaving at 4 a.m. Fiji time. ======== #95486 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Wed Jan 28, 2009 9:49 pm Subject: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions /and Re: Suttas- the time to sarahprocter... Hi Ken H (Rob E & all), I thought this was very good too... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > In this sutta (the one that lists the four factors leading to > enlightenment) the main conditioned dhamma being described is panna. > My rough understanding of the four factors is: 1) Panna knows the > wise when it encounters them: 2) panna recognises correct > descriptions of conditioned dhammas when it hears them: 3) panna > knows the correct considerations that arise from hearing about > conditioned dhammas: 4) panna applies that theoretical knowledge > directly to the conditioned-dhamma arammana that is present now. .... S: Yes, nicely expressed - my rough understanding too! ... > RE: > and there *is* > > progress, even in dhamma theory, which leads to nibbana, albeit > after > > an interminably long period. > ------------------------ > >K: Yes, when panna occurs it grows ever so slightly, and fully > developed panna knows nibbana. But the interminably long period > involved is just a concept, isn't it? The entire world arises for the first time and ceases for the last time in the present moment. > There are no survivors! :-) > -------------------------------- .... S:-) .... .... >K: Bearing that in mind I would say the only difference between sitting > in formal vipassana meditation and sitting in front of a book is that > the former is likely to happen only when there is wrong understanding > of vipassana. The latter can happen at any time. ... S: Interesting..... Metta, Sarah =========== #95487 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Wed Jan 28, 2009 9:59 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] thesis on Sujin Boriharnwanaket abhidhammika Dear DaveK, Robert Epstein, colette, Robert K, Nina, Howard and all How are you? DaveK wrote: "Robert, I share, though not so creatively, Colette's enthusiasm here." Suan wrote: Me, too. :-) DaveK wrote: "There are teachers who encourage jhanic cultivation even to lay people, with the understanding that it is difficult and one will have to apply themselves very heavily to virtue and a simple kind of life." Suan added: In fact, those teachers are following the Buddha's example and the Buddha's teaching methods. It is entirely up to the practitioners to follow the Buddha's instructions either to the full or to a variable comfortable level in line with their circumstances. DaveK wrote: "A simple fact: if there is an area in which we are weak, we should strengthen it, not abandon it. I still can't believe I hear people say that we don't have the right paramis for Jhana, so we shouldn't try." Suan added: You must be a lucky man if you were not also told that the practitioners of formal meditation methods were wrong and wasting their time. :-) Best wishes Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org #95488 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Wed Jan 28, 2009 10:14 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] thesis on Sujin Boriharnwanaket epsteinrob Hi Dave! > > A simple fact: if there is an area in which we are weak, we should > strengthen it, not abandon it. I still can't believe I hear people > say that we don't have the right paramis for Jhana, so we shouldn't > try. That's like telling your toddler he's obviously no good at > walking so he should stick with crawling. The paramis don't come > out of thin air. They are cultivated over lifetimes of effort. To > [even attempt to] practice jhana is to cultivate qualities like > virtue, renunciation, patience, determination and forbearance. > That's half of the paramis you can develop just by sitting there. > > -DaveK Thanks for your affirmation of this line of reasoning. I agree with the clarity of the way you explain this, since there are benefits to be had along the way. You have explicated the possibilities in a good way I think. Something that struck me - and I don't remember exactly what sutta or sutra I read it in - and always stuck with me, was that Buddha made the statement somewhere that of all the paramis the most difficult and most important one was that of patience. It is not the "sexiest" of the virtues but is the foundation for all the others. I am not the most patient type, but I found that statement comforting. It means that if you will just head in the right direction at whatever pace, you will get there. I try to remember that as I have realized more and more how long the path really is. You can't rush it, but you can be secure within it. I remember a remark that a prominent cosmologist made when they got back more precise spectroscopic data on the configuration of the galaxies. They discovered that the Universe was thousands of times bigger than they had ever previously imagined and basically it blew these scientists' minds. Millions more galaxies than they had been able to see before. They were overwhelmed, and also saw a bunch of other data that was shocking to them that I won't go into here. This scientist was interviewed by the NY Times and he said "With these new discoveries, we have just gotten smart enough to realize that we know almost absolutely nothing. We're just at the beginning, at the doorway of understanding what is going on out there." I found that strangely comforting too. The path is long and the mystery is deep. We are just babies, but as you suggest, we can perhaps crawl well, and eventually learn to walk. Best, Robert ============================ #95489 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Wed Jan 28, 2009 10:25 pm Subject: Re: thesis on Sujin Boriharnwanaket epsteinrob Hi Ken. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi Robert Ep (and Suan), > > I seem to have touched a nerve! :-) With you and Suan! > > I am not terribly apologetic about this because I know I didn't mean > any disrespect. My use of the word 'ritual' is different from yours. > > The problem is that we have vastly different understandings of what > Buddhism is all about. If I am right then you and Suan must be wrong. > If you and/or Suan are right then I must be wrong. Either way, someone > is going to be insulted. > > Ken H > I don't mind being insulted, if I was, which I am not sure, but I did disagree with your characterization as I think it tinges the discussion in a way that is not factual. Your current statement does reveal a polarized view, and it is possible that we cannot both be right, particularly if your view is exclusive, which mine is not. I find that throughout the Universe as I know it, including Martians and other species, those who are sure that their way is the one right way are usually deluded. That goes for most brands of fundamentalists, whatever the religion. For most non-dogmatic practitioners, they realize that they are ignorant human beings, and that whatever views they may have are local and incomplete. They don't presume to think that their current understanding is 100% right or that they know what other people's practice consists of, or the value thereof. Sure, you're entitled to your opinion, even when it is biased, that is fine. I made some specific points, which you don't want to seem to address. That is fine too. When I hear inaccurate or biased statements, I don't necessarily feel "insulted," but I do feel obliged to correct the record if I can. Best, Robert E. ========================== #95490 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Wed Jan 28, 2009 10:29 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Jhaana. Abhidhamma. epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Rob E (& Herman), > > --- On Tue, 27/1/09, Robert Epstein wrote: > >H:> 'Come, friends, remain focused on the body in & of itself � being > > ardent, alert, unified, clear-minded, concentrated, & single-minded > > for knowledge of the body as it actually is. Remain focused on > > feelings in & of themselves.. . focused on the mind in & of itself... > > focused on mental qualities in & of themselves � being ardent, alert, > > unified, clear-minded, concentrated, & single-minded for knowledge of > > mental qualities as they actually are.' > ... > R: >That is very clear, Herman.... > .... > S: What do you 'clearly' understand by 'focused' here? > > You may like to review what is meant by 'focused' in the Pali/other translations, such as in these messages: > #88961, #88974 > > Metta, > > Sarah > ==== > I understand "focused" to mean "maintaining attention upon." Can it mean something else? Best, Robert Ep. ==================== #95491 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Wed Jan 28, 2009 10:36 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vipassanaa, Survey Ch 34, no. 12. epsteinrob HI Nina and all. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear friends, > > Q. : What is the difference between the practice which is natural and > the practice which is unnatural? > > S. : At this moment you are sitting in a natural way and you may be > aware of realities which appear, such as softness or hardness, > presenting themselves through the bodysense, or visible object > appearing through the eyesense. All these dhammas appear naturally. > However, someone�s practice is unnatural if he believes, while he > develops satipatth�na, that he should sit crosslegged, in the lotus > position, and that he should concentrate on specific realities. There > is desire when a person selects realities which have not arisen yet > as objects of awareness. He neglects to be aware of realities which > appear already, such as seeing, hearing, visible object, sound, > odour, flavour, cold, heat, softness or hardness. Even if there is > only a slight amount of wrong understanding, it conditions clinging > and this hides the truth. In that case pa��� cannot arise and know > the dhammas appearing at that moment. > People who develop satipatth�na should know precisely the difference > between the moment of forgetfulness, when there is no sati, and the > moment when there is sati. Otherwise satipatth�na cannot be > developed. If one is usually forgetful one is bound to be forgetful > again. Someone may wish to select an object in order to concentrate > on it, but this is not the way to develop satipatth�na. We should > have right understanding of the moment when there is forgetfulness, > no sati, that is, when we do not know the characteristics of > realities appearing in daily life, such as seeing or hearing. > > ******** > Nina. Even in mindfulness practice with breathing as object, all the forms I know of allow for the discernment of what is occurring in the moment, and the acknowledgment thereof. Buddha describes this combination in the suttas which deal with both breathing and the four foundations of mindfulness. He describes a grounded or systematic base for setting up meditation, but then describes the way in which the practitioner will recognize the reality that is before him in the moment, seeing it for what it is. I don't see a reason why, once set up and grounded in breathing, one cannot then discern the momentary realities as they arise. It is not mutually exclusive. In K. Sujin's example of people all sitting there with her naturally and discerning this or that quality that arises, it is the same thing. They have all gathered to talk to her and discuss dhamma, and while doing so they are also aware of what is arising in the moment. It is the same with the meditation setup. I don't see a substantive difference. The idea that in meditation we are supposed to strive to attend to a distant object of some kind that is not in the present moment seems a mischaracterization to me. Best, Robert E. ====================== #95492 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Wed Jan 28, 2009 10:40 pm Subject: Re: Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarahprocterabbott" wrote: > > Dear Scott (Rob E & all), > > I thought that your writing on "the development of mettaa" in #95281 > was really excellent and would like anyone who didn't read it to take > another look. Thanks to Rob E for encouraging such excellent > discussions recently. Thanks for feeling that way. > S: And the following was the para I particularly liked: > > >Scott: Simply thinking, 'This I will do' is not sufficient > condition for that thing to be done. Other conditions must also be > in place. These are not subject to control. One wouldn't think, for > example, that by willing, one could cause the Path to arise. Since > the dhammas which constitute the Path are subject to the same laws of > conditionality as would be mettaa, one needn't then think that, by > act of will, anyone can cause mettaa to arise. Mettaa, like the > other dhammaa which, with development, constitute the arising of the > Path, requires development. And this development can come about due > only to certain conditions and not others. > .... > > metta, > > Sarah > ======== > I like some of that too. My question is: How does development occur? It seems this involves some sort of systematic sequence, does it not? Best, Robert Ep. ============================== #95493 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Wed Jan 28, 2009 10:45 pm Subject: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions /and Re: Suttas- the time to epsteinrob HI Sarah, and Ken H. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarahprocterabbott" wrote: > >K: Bearing that in mind I would say the only difference between > sitting > > in formal vipassana meditation and sitting in front of a book is > that > > the former is likely to happen only when there is wrong > understanding > > of vipassana. The latter can happen at any time. > ... > S: Interesting..... I truly do not understand this distinction. Sitting down to read a book is just as much a "formal" activity as sitting down to meditate. I fail to see why one would be "likely to happen only when there is wrong understanding of vipassana." Can someone explain why meditation is seen to be so horribly askew by its very nature....? It seems to be the only demon around here. If I read a sutta it is because I want to understand the Dhamma or the nature of dhammas, so I have an intention, just as much as if I decide to meditate to understand the nature of dhammas. What, pray tell, is the difference? I think I've asked this question a few times, but can't seem to get an answer that makes it clear to me. Best, Robert - - - - - - - - - - #95494 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Wed Jan 28, 2009 10:55 pm Subject: Deluded fundamentalists: thesis on Sujin Boriharnwanaket rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Epstein" wrote: > >. I find that throughout the Universe as > I know it, including Martians and other species, those who are sure > that their way is the one right way are usually deluded. That goes > for most brands of fundamentalists, whatever the religion. > > ++++ dear robert Wonderful you are so openminded, not like those crazed fundamentalists (of whatever religion). I have to wonder though if there is any outlook that you have faith in. Do you think the Buddha taught rebirth, or would it be only an extreme fundamentalist literalist nut who thought so (i see this sometimes on the internet). Would suggesting the Buddha never taught that there is a creator God be going all fundie nutto again. Or is it only points that you are unsure of - or views you disagree with- that are the real deluded extreme ones? Robert #95496 From: "sprlrt" Date: Wed Jan 28, 2009 11:13 pm Subject: Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. sprlrt Hi Sarah (and Howard), Anything in tipitaka supporting this view? - Alberto S: So,whilst, I agree with you that miccha samadhi can be upanissaya paccaya be a condition indirectly for kusala states to arise, the Buddha certainly never encouraged its development. #95497 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Wed Jan 28, 2009 11:13 pm Subject: jhana rjkjp1 http://www.abhidhamma.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=93 My website has an interesting discussion about jhana.If anyone wnats to bring up any points here please feel free to copy and paste. #95498 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 28, 2009 11:26 pm Subject: [dsg] Survey, Ch 36, no 2. nilovg Dear friends, The person who develops paññå should be aware of the characteristic of nåma while he is seeing. He can investigate and study that characteristic so that it can be realized as only a kind of experience. When there is hearing, there can be awareness of it and it can be understood as a reality which experiences sound. When someone develops satipatthåna he should study and investigate time and again the characteristic of the nåma which experiences an object through one of the six doorways, so that he can understand nåma as it really is. When paññå realizes that there are nåmas which are not yet known, it will also study and investigate these, and in this way the characteristic of nåma can clearly appear as only an element which experiences, only a reality, not a being, person or self. Someone may make an effort to be aware just of the characteristic of the nåma which hears and he is not aware of the nåma which sees. How can he then understand the true characteristic of the element which experiences while he is seeing? People can verify themselves that this is not the right way of development. Paññå can develop by awareness which considers and studies the characteristics of the nåmas experiencing an object through the senses and through the mind-door. If paññå clearly understands all kinds of nåma which appear, if it understands these as the element which experiences an object, doubt about nåma can gradually be eliminated. Paññå can become keener and more accomplished as it develops in successive stages. However, if someone intends to know only one kind of nåma it is evident that there is still ignorance and doubt with regard to the characteristics of the other kinds of nåma he was not aware of. And thus, ignorance and doubt with regard to nåma as the element which experiences cannot be eliminated. ********************** Nina. #95499 From: "sprlrt" Date: Wed Jan 28, 2009 11:27 pm Subject: Clarification Re: [dsg] Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. sprlrt Hi TG, > TG: There are no "selves." Only "arahants". Alberto #95500 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 28, 2009 11:38 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. nilovg Dear Alberto, Op 29-jan-2009, om 8:13 heeft sprlrt het volgende geschreven: > Anything in tipitaka supporting this view? - Alberto > > S: So,whilst, I agree with you that miccha samadhi can be upanissaya > paccaya be a condition indirectly for kusala states to arise, the > Buddha certainly never encouraged its development. -------- N: May I butt in? In the Patthaana, under natural dependence- condition it has been taught that akusala can be a condition for kusala. For example, one may have wrong concentration and take that for genuine jhana. Then one finds out that the hindrances are not subdued through one's practice. Thus, one learns a lesson from one's mistaken views and this is a condition to turn to the right practice. ****** Nina. #95501 From: Herman Hofman Date: Thu Jan 29, 2009 12:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner egberdina Hi Sarah, 2009/1/28 sarah abbott : > Hi Herman, > > --- On Tue, 27/1/09, Herman Hofman wrote: >>I wouldn't mind if you could outline your conception of samvega. > > .... > S: I understand it to be referring to right effort arising with right understanding and other 'rights'. Now, is the a 'stirring', the energetic reflection or understanding of dhammas, kusala or akusala? I think that the concepts kusala/akusala have no bearing on the reality of samvega. The concepts kusala/akusala are inseparably intertwined with ongoing existence. They are karmically active, so to speak. Samvega, as is Buddhism, is not about ongoing existence. > p.s. Sharon and her sweet daughter came round to visit me for a couple of hours at a spot we were staying for the weekend near hers. Of course she remembers you well and was quite surprised to hear about your interest in the Dhamma. She says she's still in touch with your other friend, Robin. After you knew Sharon, she moved back to Japan and lost touch with many friends. She asked me for yr email which I'll send her tomorrow. What else? I showed her a couple of your messages. After a pause, her response was that 'all would be clear' if you (and others of us here) practised! She'd like to join any gathering we arrange in the Blue Mts. > ============ Well, let's practise till we perfect patience :-) It'll be nice to hear from Sharon again. Have a safe trip home, you and Jon. Cheers Herman #95502 From: Herman Hofman Date: Thu Jan 29, 2009 12:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] thesis on Sujin Boriharnwanaket egberdina Hi Nina, 2009/1/28 Nina van Gorkom : > Dear Rob Ep, ------- > N: I see your point. Each person lives according to his accumulated > inclinations, and this is a point emphasized by Kh Sujin. If by the above you mean that a person can only repeat their past, then I would like to strongly question such a view. Perhaps you/KS mean something else? Cheers Herman #95503 From: "sprlrt" Date: Thu Jan 29, 2009 1:36 am Subject: Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. sprlrt Dear Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > N: May I butt in? In the Patthaana, under natural dependence- > condition it has been taught that akusala can be a condition for > kusala. For example, one may have wrong concentration and take that > for genuine jhana. Then one finds out that the hindrances are not > subdued through one's practice. Thus, one learns a lesson from one's > mistaken views and this is a condition to turn to the right practice. > Your more than are welcome of course, I don't have access to the translation of the Patthaana, and I think this is an important Dhamma issue, could you post the quote? Thanks. Alberto #95504 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 29, 2009 1:41 am Subject: Re: Q.[dsg] Beginner abhidhamma questions nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 28-jan-2009, om 17:10 heeft szmicio het volgende geschreven: > I have some questions about external world. > > In Khandhavibhango, Vibhangapali, The Blessed One said: > > "vaa ajjhatta.m vaa bahiddhaa" > > Means what is internal and what is external. > > "Therein what is external material quality? That material quality > which, for this or that other being, for other persons is personal, > self-referable, one's own, individual and is grasped(by craving and > self view)(i.e.,) the four great essentials and the material qualities > derived from the four great essentials. This is called internal > material quality " > (PTS transl.) > ---------- N: Just a typo in the last sentence: must be external. We read in Vis. Ch XIV, 73: < Herein, the five kinds beginning with the eye are 'internal' because they occur as an integral part of the selfhood (in oneself); the rest are 'external' because they are external to that selfhood (personality).> The five senses are internal rupas, visible object that impinges on the eyesense is external. In the definition of the Vibhanga you gave, the rupas of other persons are mentioned. Person is just a conventional way of explaining. When seeing, colour 'of another person' can be seen. You do not see a person, just visible object. It is an external object. ------- L: I think it's very hard to know external world, and we cannot know it until we do not experience internal world first. -------- N: Visible object, sound, smell, etc. impinge all the time on the five senses, only one at a time, and when we consider and investigate there are conditions for sati to be aware of them little by little. We should not merely think of names, like internal and external, but through awareness and understanding rupas that are internal or external become more meaningful. Usually we think long stories about them, but sometimes there can be conditions for awareness just of one rupa at a time. In this way we learn that they are only dhammas. As to rupa being molested, Dave gave already an interesting answer. I would like to add: in the commentary (Dispeller of Delusion, I, p. 3) there is a further explanation. Molested: There are examples: by cold or heat, and this is obvious in hell planes where there is extreme cold or heat. Rupa itself does not experience anything, but if there were no rupas of the body, there would not be so much suffering. It shows us the disadvantage of the body to which we cling. Nina. P.S. Can you give your questions for Kh Sujin this week? #95505 From: Herman Hofman Date: Thu Jan 29, 2009 1:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. egberdina Hi Alberto, 2009/1/29 sprlrt : > Dear Nina, > >> >> N: May I butt in? In the Patthaana, under natural dependence- >> condition it has been taught that akusala can be a condition for >> kusala. For example, one may have wrong concentration and take that >> for genuine jhana. Then one finds out that the hindrances are not >> subdued through one's practice. Thus, one learns a lesson from one's >> mistaken views and this is a condition to turn to the right practice. >> > > Your more than are welcome of course, I don't have access to the > translation of the Patthaana, and I think this is an important Dhamma > issue, could you post the quote? Thanks. > What Nina is describing is referred to these days as learning by trial and error. What you are doing again, Alberto, is making a book the final arbiter of whether learning by trial and error is something that really happens. You do not yet see this as strange, and you do not even acknowledge your own role in appointing which book(s) is/are to be the arbiter. In effect, you are making yourself the final arbiter, and rest assured, I will keep reminding you how very strange that is :-) Cheers Herman #95506 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 29, 2009 1:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vipassanaa, Survey Ch 34, no. 12. nilovg Dear Rob Ep, Op 29-jan-2009, om 7:36 heeft Robert Epstein het volgende geschreven: > I don't see a reason why, once set up and grounded > in breathing, one cannot then discern the momentary realities as they > arise. It is not mutually exclusive. ------ N: What you say is correct. It refers to a person who develops both samatha and vipassana. For samatha he is sitting crosslegged etc. already. The sitting comes naturally to him. --------- > > R: In K. Sujin's example of people all sitting there with her > naturally > and discerning this or that quality that arises, it is the same thing. > They have all gathered to talk to her and discuss dhamma, and while > doing so they are also aware of what is arising in the moment. It is > the same with the meditation setup. I don't see a substantive > difference. The idea that in meditation we are supposed to strive to > attend to a distant object of some kind that is not in the present > moment seems a mischaracterization to me. --------- N: It all depends on the citta whether it is with lobha, clinging to a quick result, or whether it is kusala citta with understanding of the level of listening and considering in order to have more understanding. As we read:Kh S: Suppose I have desire for more awareness and want to select specific objects to concentrate on and therefore I prefer to sit still in a quiet room for a long time, that would not be natural for me. I force myself with lobha. I do not 'let sati arise' because of its own conditions. I do not understand that sati is anatta, that it has no owner. Lobha comes in and hinders. Listening and a growing understanding of what sati is and what the realities it can be aware of are conditions that can be developed. How? By listening and considering again and again. Patience and perseverance. We can understand what Kh Sujin means if we consider the different cittas that motivate our actions in a day. If not, one is bound to interprete all her words in a wrong way and thus misunderstandings arise. ******** Nina. #95507 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 29, 2009 2:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. nilovg Dear Alberto, it is in Zolag, downloads. I shall quote. Op 29-jan-2009, om 10:36 heeft sprlrt het volgende geschreven: > Your more than are welcome of course, I don't have access to the > translation of the Patthaana, and I think this is an important Dhamma > issue, could you post the quote? ------- N: < The natural decisive support-condition, pakatúpanissaya paccaya, includes many different aspects. Kusala citta that arose before can be a natural decisive support-condition for akusala citta arising afterwards; we can cling to the kusala we performed or we can have conceit about it. We read in the “Paììhåna” ( same section, § 423, II b): “Confidence, precept, learning, generosity, wisdom is related to lust, hate, delusion, conceit, wrong views, wish, by (natural) strong dependence-condition.” Knowledge of the Dhamma may be a natural decisive support-condition for conceit or for wrong view. Someone may have studied the Dhamma but he may not consider nåma and rúpa appearing in daily life and have wrong understanding of the practice of vipassanå. Or someone may have confidence in a teacher who practises in the wrong way and thus he may follow the wrong practice. Kusala can lead to aversion, it can be a natural decisive support- condition for aversion. When we make an effort to help someone else, that person may not appreciate our help and then we are likely to have aversion. If we do not study the different conditions we may not understand that the performing of good deeds can be a condition for the arising of akusala citta. If we do not develop satipaììhåna with the purpose of eradicating akusala, the kusala we perform can, without our noticing it, be a natural decisive support-condition for akusala citta. > Nina. #95508 From: Herman Hofman Date: Thu Jan 29, 2009 2:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What the Buddha said... to whom? egberdina Hi KenH, 2009/1/29 kenhowardau : > Hi Herman, > > ------------- > <. . .> > KH: > > What are you suggesting? That there is no ultimate reality? > Only concepts? >> > > > H: > Yep. Apart from nibbana, that is. All consciousness is > conceptual. > ---------------- > > I am tempted to say "Interesting, tell me more!" But this is a > Dhamma discussion group: there is no time here Well, KenH, if what you maintain is right, if there is only the present, then there is no time anywhere. > for any explanations > of the world other than the Buddha's. Of course the Buddha's explanations, with his elixir voice, occur in time. Just imagine the delusion involved in hearing the word "Sabhe". > > And please don't tell me that *was* the Buddha's explanation. When we > want to get someone to listen to our personal ramblings the oldest > trick in the book is to begin them with "the Buddha said." :-) Does "Evam me sutam" ring a bell? Ahh God, I just blew it. Bells are conventional, and there goes my whole argument down the drain. If only I had said that "ringing a bell" was a cetasika. And it always helps to mention the chief. Dang! > > ------------------------- > <. . .> > H: > But if Dhamma Discussion does not relate to how the world works, > then perhaps down the hall there are better options :-) I say that > because, as far as I can tell, your views consist mainly of a denial > of every thing that happens, and instead firmly re-iterating that > there is only the present. Hardly a discussion, hey what? > -------------------------- > > Here, we are poles apart. I can't think of anything more interesting > than an explanation of the universe that condenses everything down to > a few, presently arisen, mental and physical phenomena. You seem to be quite adept at using 26 different letters in different combinations, none of which mean anything in isolation, or one at a time. If only I could be as enlightened as you :-( > > Sa la vie! :-) > C'est la vie is what the French say. But they don't exist. Cheers Herman #95509 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Jan 29, 2009 3:01 am Subject: Re: thesis on Sujin Boriharnwanaket kenhowardau Hi Robert Ep, --------------- <. . .> RE: > I don't mind being insulted, if I was, which I am not sure, but I did disagree with your characterization as I think it tinges the discussion in a way that is not factual. --------------- Are you talkin here about my use of the word 'rituals?' I'll be very happy to have long conversations with you about it. Silabbataparamasa is one of my favourite topics. It is finally overcome at the stage of Stream Entry, until then we should learn as much as we can about it. ------------------------- RE: > Your current statement does reveal a polarized view, and it is possible that we cannot both be right, particularly if your view is exclusive, which mine is not. ------------------------- Yes, my view is exclusive. In a DSG post some time last year I came up with a metaphor for this kind of thing. It was the old joke about the drunk who was looking for his car keys. A passer-by stops to help him but to no avail, and eventually asks, "Are you sure this is where you dropped your keys?" And the drunk says, "No, I dropped them on the other side of the street, but the light is better here." You wouldn't blame anyone in that situation for having an exclusive view, would you? You wouldn't expect the passer-by to think "Maybe he is right to look here, maybe he isn't. I should keep an open mind." It's the same in this case. Now that the Dhamma has been explained to me in the way that it has, I can't possibly give credence to any other way of understanding it. I can't think 'maybe I should spend some of my time understanding that the Buddha taught there were only dhammas, and some of my time understanding that the Buddha taught there was something more than dhammas.' ---------------------------------------- RE: > I find that throughout the Universe as I know it, including Martians and other species, those who are sure that their way is the one right way are usually deluded. That goes for most brands of fundamentalists, whatever the religion. For most non-dogmatic practitioners, they realize that they are ignorant human beings, and that whatever views they may have are local and incomplete. They don't presume to think that their current understanding is 100% right or that they know what other people's practice consists of, or the value thereof. Sure, you're entitled to your opinion, even when it is biased, that is fine. ----------------------------------------- You might notice that my "exclusive view" is a view of 'what the Buddha taught.' It is not a view of 'whether the Buddha's teaching was right or wrong.' I think that kind of view is only attained at Stream Entry. (Corrections welcome.) ----------------------------------------------------- RE: > I made some specific points, which you don't want to seem to address. That is fine too. ----------------------------------------------------- I did begin to address them, but I came to suspect that you had spoken in haste and that you probably would have preferred not to be reminded of it. Some of the things you said about K Sujin were a bit OTT. :-) ---------------------------------- RE: > When I hear inaccurate or biased statements, I don't necessarily feel "insulted," but I do feel obliged to correct the record if I can. ----------------------------------- When I first joined DSG I quickly came to realise that all of my formal meditation practices over the previous 26 years had been wrong practices. So my practices were insulted. I wasn't insulted. :-) Ken H #95510 From: "Scott" Date: Thu Jan 29, 2009 4:27 am Subject: Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner scottduncan2 Dear All, Continuing: The Path of Purification. "36. But if, as he reviews the special qualities of the Master's former conduct, the resentment still does not subside in him, since he has long been used to the slavery of defilement, then he should review the suttas that deal with the beginninglessness [of the round of rebirths]. He is what is said: 'Bhikkhus, it is not easy to find a being who has not formerly been your mother ... your father ... your brother ... your sister ... your son ... your daughter' (S.ii,189-190). Consequently he should think about that person thus: 'This person, it seems, as my mother in the past carried me in her womb for ten months and removed from me without disgust, as if it were yellow sandalwood, my urine, excrement, spittle, snot, etc., and played with me in her lap, and nourished me, carrying me about on her hip. And this person as my father went by goat paths and paths set on piles, etc., to pursue the trade of merchant, and he risked his life for me by going into battle in double array, by sailing on the great ocean in ships and doing other difficult things, and he nourished me by bringing back wealth by one means or another thinking to feed his children. And as my brother, sister, son, daughter, this person gave me such and such help. So it is unbecoming for me to harbour hate for him in my mind." Path of Purity. "If, in spite of such reflections on the qualities of the Teacher's former conduct, his hatred does not subside, since he has been so long a slave to the vices, he should then consider the Suttas on the repeated round of births, wherein it is said: 'Monks, it is not easy to find a being who has not been a mother, a father, a brother, a sister, a son, or a daughter.' Therefore, such a person should be considered thus: - 'This, they say, formerly was my mother, who for ten months carried me in her womb, removed my urine, excrement, saliva, snot, and so on without loathing, as if they were yellow sandal-wood, hid me in her bosom, carried me on her hip and brought me up. He who was my father went to trade by goat-tracks, by paths rough with stakes, and for my sake risked his life; who went to war where battle was in array on both sides; who went out in his boat on the high sea, and did other difficult deeds; who amassed wealth in various ways with the object of bringing up children, and so brought me up. And those also who were my brother, sister, son, daughter, did such and such services to me. Therefore it does not behove me to bear ill feeling against them.'" Sace panassa eva.m satthu pubbacaritagu.na.m paccavekkhatopi diigharatta.m kilesaana.m daasabya.m upagatassa neva ta.m pa.tigha.m vuupasammati, athaanena anamataggiyaani paccavekkhitabbaani. Tatra hi vutta.m - 'Na so, bhikkhave, satto sulabharuupo, yo na maataabhuutapubbo, yo na pitaabhuutapubbo, yo na bhaataa, yo na bhaginii, yo na putto, yo na dhiitaabhuutapubbaa 'ti (sa.m. ni. 2.137-142). Tasmaa tasmi.m puggale eva.m citta.m uppaadetabba.m, 'aya.m kira me atiite maataa hutvaa dasamaase kucchiyaa pariharitvaa muttakariisakhe.lasi"nghaa.nikaadiini haricandana.m viya ajigucchamaanaa apanetvaa ure naccaapentii a"ngena pariharamaanaa posesi, pitaa hutvaa ajapathasa"nkupathaadiini gantvaa vaa.nijja.m payojayamaano mayhamatthaaya jiivitampi pariccajitvaa ubhatobyuu.lhe sa"ngaame pavisitvaa naavaaya mahaasamudda.m pakkhanditvaa a~n~naani ca dukkaraani karitvaa 'puttake posessaamii 'ti tehi tehi upaayehi dhana.m sa.mharitvaa ma.m posesi. Bhaataa, bhaginii, putto, dhiitaa ca hutvaapi ida~ncida~ncupakaara.m akaasiiti tatra me nappatiruupa.m mana.m paduusetu 'nti. Sincerely, Scott. #95511 From: "Scott" Date: Thu Jan 29, 2009 5:29 am Subject: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions /and Re: Suttas- the time to scottduncan2 Dear Rob E, Sarah, and Ken H., Regarding: Rob E.: "I truly do not understand this distinction. Sitting down to read a book is just as much a 'formal' activity as sitting down to meditate. I fail to see why one would be 'likely to happen only when there is wrong understanding of vipassana.' Can someone explain why meditation is seen to be so horribly askew by its very nature....? It seems to be the only demon around here. If I read a sutta it is because I want to understand the Dhamma or the nature of dhammas, so I have an intention, just as much as if I decide to meditate to understand the nature of dhammas. What, pray tell, is the difference? I think I've asked this question a few times, but can't seem to get an answer that makes it clear to me. Scott: The problem is the now encumbered English word 'meditate' and the myriad of misunderstandings the word drags along with it. Consider The Ardent Sutta, Aataapiisutta.m Ittivuttaka, 34: "II.1.7) This, unquestionably - so has there been heard by me - was stated by the Lord, was stated by the Arahant, viz. 'The monk who is non-ardent, monks, who possesses no fear of reproach, is incapable of enlightenment, is incapable of nibbaana, is incapable of attaining the unsurpassed relief from the yokes. Yet the monk who is ardent, monks, who possesses a fear or reproach, is capable of enlightenment, is capable of nibbaana, is capable of attaining the unsurpassed relief from the yokes'. This matter the Lord did state; it was in connection therewith that this was so stated: Vutta~nheta.m bhagavataa, vuttamarahataati me suta.m â€" 'Anaataapaa, bhikkhave, bhikkhu anottaapii abhabbo sambodhaaya, abhabbo nibbaanaaya, abhabbo anuttarassa yogakkhemassa adhigamaaya. Aataapii ca kho, bhikkhave, bhikkhu ottaapii bhabbo sambodhaaya, bhabbo nibbaanaaya, bhabbo anuttarassa yogakkhemassa adhigamaayaa 'ti. Etamattha.m bhagavaa avoca . Tattheta.m iti vuccati - 'The one non-ardent, who possesses no fear of reproach, who is indolent, who has abandoned energy, who possesses sloth and torpor in abundance, who lacks a sense of shame, who lacks regard - no capable is the monk of such a kind of contacting that which is utmost, enlightenment. "Yet the one who meditates, who possesses mindfulness, who is discerning, who is ardent, one possessing a fear of reproach, and diligent, having severed the fetters of birth and old age, should right here contact enlightenment, that which is unsurpassed". 'Anaataapii anottaapii, kusiito hiinaviiriyo; Yo thiinamiddhabahulo, ahiriiko anaadaro; Abhabbo taadiso bhikkhu, phu.t.thu.m sambodhimuttama.m. 'Yo ca satimaa nipako jhaayii, aataapii ottaapii ca appamatto; Sa.myojana.m jaatijaraaya chetvaa, idheva sambodhimanuttara.m phuse 'ti. This matter, too, was stated by the Lord, so has there been heard by me." Ayampi attho vutto bhagavataa, iti me sutanti. Sattama.m. Scott: And from the Commentary (pp. 269-270), consider: "...Who possesses mindfulness (satimaa): who possesses mindfulness through his link with the four foundations of mindfulness, due to the actual occurrence of mindfulness and discernment (satinepakkasubbhaavena) and have the ability of recollecting what has long since been done and what has long since been proclaimed. Who is discerning (nipako): who is discerning on account of being endowed with discernment, not only reckoned as that attentiveness associated with the seven situations, but also reckoned as that insight that protects the meditation subject (kamma.t.thaanaparihara.napa~n~naa). The one who meditates (jhaayi): the one who meditates by way of the two meditations (jhaanehi), viz. by way of meditating (upanijjhaanena) on an object and by way of meditating on a characteristic.." Scott: PTS PED: "Jhaayati1...to meditate, contemplate, think upon, brood over (c. acc.): search for, hunt after...Jhaayati2...to burn, to be on fire: fig. to be consumed, to waste away, to dry up..." Scott: And consider how it is pa~n~naa, as a function of its arising and not due to a person, that 'protects the meditation subject', which, to me, means that only pa~n~naa, accompanied by the other kusala dhammas noted in the sutta (aatapi, hiri, sati - also not directed by a person but present only due to conditions) is what is condition for the kind of contemplation that burns up the fetters. The problem lies in the thought, '*I have* intention...'. Sincerely, Scott. #95512 From: "szmicio" Date: Thu Jan 29, 2009 5:38 am Subject: Re: Q.[dsg] Beginner abhidhamma questions szmicio Dear Nina You metioned about internal and external ayatanas, but it's diffrent then pa~nca khandha classification. I think that in khandhavibhanga Buddha didn't refer only to dhammas which are external and internal in the sense of visible object and eye... I think he also refers to concepts there. That's why he called it external word. Nina, I have many doubts here. I know that when pa~n~na arises it can know everything. it can know seeing as seeing, hearing as hearing. I think it's internal world. I am not saying that in external world people exist. I am saying that's only a concept which impinges on mind-door. It's all happening in ourselves. But in this way it's external world. I will give you an example: (internal world) when we realise that is only a citta which experiences, no self. dhammas as dhammas. and also when we realise citta which thinks. (external world) when we read some Suttas, there is a lot of similes. In Titha Sutta Blessed One explains about quarelling on account of what is dhamma and what is not. I realised that it also refers to my own live. I can read about Dhamma and then have a lot of moments of thinking that my view is better than anyone else's view. That my path is better than anyone else's path. But in such moments I can also realise that is only a concpet(Pa~n~nati) which impinges on mind-door. Just citta which thinks. Isn't it an external world? > P.S. Can you give your questions for Kh Sujin this week? I'll do it today. Best wishes Lukas #95513 From: "connie" Date: Thu Jan 29, 2009 6:02 am Subject: cornerstone nichiconn Dear Friends, Karunadasa continues: As pointed out by K.N. Jayatilleke in his Early Buddhist Theory of Knowledge, one misconception about the Theravada version of double truth is that paramattha-sacca is superior to sammuti-sacca and that "what is true in the one sense is false in the other." 144 This observation that the distinction in question is not based on a theory of degrees of truth will become clear from the following free translation of the relevant passages contained in three commentaries: Herein references to living beings, gods, Brahma, etc., are sammuti-katha, whereas references to impermanence, suffering, egolessness, the aggregates of the empiric individuality, the spheres and elements of sense perception and mind-cognition, bases of mindfulness, right effort, etc., are paramattha-katha. One who is capable of understanding and penetrating to the truth and hoisting the flag of arahantship when the teaching is set out in terms of generally accepted conventions, to him the Buddha preaches the doctrine based on sammuti-katha. One who is capable of understanding and penetrating to the truth and hoisting the flag of arahantship when the teaching is set out in terms of ultimate categories, to him the Buddha preaches the doctrine based on paramattha-katha. To one who is capable of awakening to the truth through sammuti-katha, the teaching is not presented on the basis of paramattha-katha, and conversely, to one who is capable of awakening to the truth through paramattha-katha, the teaching is not presented on the basis of sammuti-katha. 144. Jayatilleke, p.364. ... to be continued, connie #95514 From: "dkotschessa" Date: Thu Jan 29, 2009 6:13 am Subject: Re: thesis on Sujin Boriharnwanaket dkotschessa --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Epstein" wrote: > Your current statement does reveal a polarized view, and it is > possible that we cannot both be right, particularly if your view is > exclusive, which mine is not. I find that throughout the Universe as > I know it, including Martians and other species, those who are sure > that their way is the one right way are usually deluded. That goes > for most brands of fundamentalists, whatever the religion. > > For most non-dogmatic practitioners, they realize that they are > ignorant human beings, and that whatever views they may have are local > and incomplete. They don't presume to think that their current > understanding is 100% right or that they know what other people's > practice consists of, or the value thereof. > > Sure, you're entitled to your opinion, even when it is biased, that is > fine. I made some specific points, which you don't want to seem to > address. That is fine too. When I hear inaccurate or biased > statements, I don't necessarily feel "insulted," but I do feel obliged > to correct the record if I can. > > Best, > Robert E. > > ========================== It's funny Robert, that you and I actually have a "history" since we've been (and one of us still us) in the usenet circus. We're like war buddies. We've "seen a few things." And I am sure we have both noticed how viewpoints and opinions are inevitably dictated by a person's background, history, and area of expertise. If this was a mailing list of folks from the Thai forest tradition, we'd be told to forget about Abhidhamma, to study the suttas and to practice meditation. Abhidhamma is a new area of study to me, and I'm noticing that this particular circle of people has a lot more "non-meditators." Which I find very interesting. I'm vaguely familiar with why this is so, but not enough to speak fluently on it. I still find it absolutely fascinating. We have seen the same sentiment in some of the fringe areas of zen, who hold to the idea of dhyana as being inseperable from prajna, and take this to mean that meditation is not sitting meditation but prajna itself. Hui Neng is used as an example here. I don't want to go on a tangent about zen vs. theravada and explore all these avenues, though that would be interesting. I'm just interested in stepping back and looking at the larger picture here. I am of course biased towards meditation. I have to be, since it stopped me going down other less skillful roads in my life. My study has been sutta-based, not abhidhamma based. That has influenced my practice. Most of the suttas people like me read were given to Bhikkhus and Bhikkhunis, so that has influenced how I look at Buddhism, despite the fact that I am a lay practitioner. I haven't found suttas in which the Buddha taught meditation to householders, but my bias leads me to conclude that the distinction between what is a monastic and what is a householder is not what it was in the Buddha's time. I think life was less confused and that people had time to mull things over. Life had space. I would even be so crass as to call this a kind of meditation. Also, virtue was something that was praised in the Buddha's time. These days we praise intelligence, accomplishment and so forth. Virtue isn't even on the list of virtues we find admirable in people. What I do is not necessarily jhana, and may not even be the right concentration of the eightfold path. But the basic ability to just "sit down and shut up" is something human beings are seriously lacking. If we can't file it under samadhi we can at least file it under sila. To sit in meditation is to abide by all five precepts, if not the entire vinaya. -DaveK #95515 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 29, 2009 6:41 am Subject: [dsg] Sangiiti Sutta Threes (46-48) and commentary, part 2. nilovg Dear friends, sutta (47): Walshe: DN 33.1.10(47) 'Three kinds of training: in higher morality, higher thought, higher wisdom (adhisiila-sikkhaa, addhicitta-sikkhaa, adhipa~n~naa-sikkhaa). Tisso sikkhaa - adhisiilasikkhaa, adhicittasikkhaa, adhipa~n~naasikkhaa. ------- N: The co states as regards higher morality, adhisiila, that this must be trained, and the same for higher citta and higher pa~n~naa. There is siila and higher siila, citta and higher citta, pa~n~naa and higher pa~n~naa and these have to be distinguished. Siila are the five or ten precepts, higher siila is the restraint of pa.timokkha. The eight attainments (of jhaana) are citta (concentration), and jhaana that is a basis for insight (vipassanaapaadakajjhaana) is higher citta. Understanding of the ownership of kamma is pa~n~naa, and vipassanaa is higher pa~n~naa. ------ N: Jhaana as basis for insight: when emerging from jhaana, vipassanaa is developed that is aware of and understands the jhaanacitta and accmpanying jhaanafactors as non-self. The Co explains that siila, citta (concentration) and understanding (of the ownership of kamma) can occur also when a Buddha has not arisen, but higher siila, higher citta and higher pa~n~naa can only occur with the arising of Buddhas. When someone who aspires for nibbaana undertakes the five precepts or ten precepts, this is higher siila. The same for the eight attainments, if aspiring for nibbaana, they are higher citta. The subco mentions that higher siila is a condition for the attainment of nibbaana. N: Higher siila goes together with vipassanaa pa~n~naa. The Co then differentiates between siila, citta and pa~n~naa which are lokiya or lokuttara. When they are lokuttara they are higher siila, higher citta and higher pa~n~naa. N: When lokuttara magga-citta arises, all three abstentions (virati) accompany the lokuttara citrta, because the base of wrong action, wrong speech and wrong livelihood is being eradicated. In the case of citta of the sense sphere, only one abstention at a time can accompany the kusala citta. N: There is vipassanaa p~n~naa together with higher siila, higher citta and higher pa~n~naa, otherwise it cannot be called ‘higher’. At the moment of right awareness and right understanding of a reality there are higher siila, higher citta and higher pa~n~naa. The subco explains that understanding of the ownership of kamma is also higher pa~n~naa when it is a condition for a sense of urgency and freedom from desire because of the consideration of the cycle as root of dukkha both in the past and the future. --------- N: When stages of insight arise one truly understands the nature of kamma and vipaaka. So long as one performs kamma there will be vipaaka that may arise in the form of rebirth and thus the cycle continues. There may be conditions for a sense of urgency to develop the Path so that all ignorance and clinging are eradicated and the end of the cycle can be reached. When one has not heard and considered the Buddha’s teaching, one takes all kinds of kusala, siila, concentration and understanding, for self. The Buddha taught satipatthaana so that people could realize the truth of non-self. There is training in higher siila, higher citta and higher pa~n~naa, when satipatthaana is being developed. When there is awareness of a nama or ruupa, the citta is kusala citta accompanied by right understanding and one does not hurt or harm anybody, there is higher siila and one does not take the siila for self at that moment. There is also higher citta, because right concentration performs its function of focussing on the naama or ruupa appearing at that moment. If someone has the inclination and skill for jhaana, the jhaana- attainments can be a basis for vipassanaa and this means that he does not take his attainments for self. There is higher pa~n~naa, vipassanaa pa~n~naa develops. -------- Co: Adhisiilasikkhaadiisu adhisiila~nca ta.m sikkhitabbato sikkhaa caati adhisiilasikkhaa. Itarasmi.m dvayepi eseva nayo. Tattha siila.m adhisiila.m, citta.m adhicitta.m, pa~n~naa adhipa~n~naati aya.m pabhedo veditabbo.... ________ Nina. #95516 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 29, 2009 6:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] jhana nilovg Dear Robert, A long time ago I posted some parts of it, it is very good. Food for thinking. Perhaps you could select small sections and repost them? People may not be inclined to read a long article and therefore, small sections at a time may help. Nina. Op 29-jan-2009, om 8:13 heeft rjkjp1 het volgende geschreven: > My website has an interesting discussion about jhana.If anyone > wnats to > bring up any points here please feel free to copy and paste. #95517 From: "Scott" Date: Thu Jan 29, 2009 7:02 am Subject: Re: What the Buddha said... to whom? scottduncan2 Dear Suan, Regarding: S: "...The methods in this great Suttam are indeed instructions to follow either at will (asankhaarikam) or by making personal effort or by being persuaded or motivated by good well-wishers such as friends or family members or meditation instructor or societal culture such as living in a Buddhist country (sasankhaarikam). The Pali terms asankhaarikam and sasankhaarikam can be found in the chapter called 'Cittaparicchedo' in Abhidhamatthasangaho, a primary level introductory Abhiddhamma text. These terms show how a mental event can arise." Scott: What is unprompted but arises? What prompts? What is prompted thereby? Sincerely, Scott. #95518 From: "Sukinder" Date: Thu Jan 29, 2009 7:03 am Subject: Re: thesis on Sujin Boriharnwanaket sukinderpal Dear Rob Ep and Ken H, I would like to use this post to express some understandings, I hope you both don't mind. Good to see you back Rob. :-) > > Some people who have great respect for her as a teacher still > > continue with their ritualistic samatha and vipassana practices. They > > desperately want her to approve of those practices, but she won't. I > > think she once explained that those people were 'seeking permission > > to keep going round and round on the wheel of samsara.' > > > > Ken H > > There are potentially some presuppositions in your statement that are > not necessarily correct. > > One is the use of "ritualistic" to describe samatha/vipassana > meditation. This implies that it is empty and fruitless, something > that you most likely do not know, but only feel based on your personal > opinion and philosophy. It is disparaging to say that someone else's > practice is "ritualistic" unless you can in fact specify what this > means and show that it is going through the motions of the path > without having the desired result. I believe Ken has given quite a few explanations about all this here on DSG. Also we know that there have been many posts by others on this topic, including the one by Kom which Nina posted. Now I thought that Kom's post would have caused you and others to question your ideas about Jhana, but apparently it didn't have the kind of effect. So I guess that this and all those other posts actually failed to qualify as `explanation' simply because of the very different understanding, would you think? I'm not sure how much what I write below will explain anything, but perhaps it will help you to see better the big difference in the outlook…. When asked, I think you will agree that at any given moment, in reality, there is only consciousness with its concomitant mental factors arisen to experience an object and performing other functions, and falling away immediately. Much of the time however, one of these mental factors is ignorance and the object is a `concept'. At such times these concepts are taken seriously by virtue of other akusala mental factors including tanha, mana and ditthi. But the question is how far we really agree about all this? I believe that at the intellectual level alone, there is much room for increased understanding of the above. Beginning with any initial `seeing sense' in the proposition, one would have to continue listening, discussing and considering almost endlessly, about as many aspects of the Teachings as possible, all with growing understanding about the reality / concept distinction and applied to the present moment experience. This is suttamaya panna and cintamaya panna and perhaps occasionally some bhavanamaya panna. Straightening of view is not about getting the `facts' right, but the arising of one of these three levels of understanding. And being a matter of panna arising to understand something about the present moment, all these levels help to see ideas aimed at the past and future for what they are. The development of understanding therefore involves increasingly being drawn to the present moment / paramattha dhammas, and away from ideas about another time, place, posture, object etc. / concept. When Ken pointed out to you about `meditation' being future oriented, this I believe is where he was coming from. It is not so much what you "do", but the "view" which matters. When watching TV or surfing, craving may be the only big problem, however when it comes to "meditation", this must involve some kind of `view' and it can't be Right View! Because Right View when it arises, has the present moment as object and knows it to be `conditioned'. And this is true for all moments, so why follow ideas about someone who needs to sit, note, pay attention, focus etc.? The imperative would be to understand what appears "now" more than anything wouldn't it? Besides, before hearing the Dhamma, all we knew were concepts, and this includes ideas about a `self' who needs to do something in order to gain results. We identified with our thoughts / intentions with complete ignorance, including those times when we did `good'. What we call introspection / noting and later the concept of `meditation', we invested so much `self' into these that we now are unwilling to question. Hearing the Dhamma including about Satipatthana and what the panna of this level knows, we are in fact given the chance to look at and question all this. But this doesn't seem to happen with most. So while some agree at one level that there are only dhammas, however when it comes to `meditation', I see so much resistance which I take to be due to attachment and wrong view. This following of the idea is `ritualistic' because it involves an idea of `self' who needs to do something in particular in order that wisdom may arise, in complete ignorance of and resistance to the importance of knowing the dhammas involved during such moments. And those that are particularly associated with ideas about prior attainment of `calm' as gateway to insight / wisdom, this is what Silabattaparamasa is about. What I had hoped Kom's post would do in considering Jhana, was bring you and others to seeing the importance of understanding nama and rupa in daily life. It may be true that you and others rightly appreciate that Jhana is a very high level of kusala which the Buddha praised. However it seems that you go wrong everywhere else around the particular concept. Beginning with seeing the relationship between Jhana and the more humble levels of kusala in daily life, which you'll admit to arising so infrequently compared to akusala, you don't seem to want to see this. But Jhana is the culmination of the development of kusala of levels we clearly are nowhere near. Kom's post captured this point so well. I believe that people have allowed themselves to be so carried away by concepts such as Jhana and others, that not only these blind them to the reality of where they really are at, but they go on to even use the ideas to argue against the importance of keeping on listening and develop understanding patiently at more humble levels. There is so much more to be developed at the level, not only of cintamaya panna, but also suttamaya panna. Seeing how little we know is seeing the importance of Dhamma and an inclination hence, to lending ear, discussing and considering more. Knowledge and understanding of the 4NT starts with the level of listening, and here one comes to understand better and better the Path. Also here the particular relationship between pariyatti, patipatti and pativedha is appreciated. I believe that it is reflection of the lack of understanding at the level of pariyatti which makes the wrong association of the Path with Jhana. Not a good position to be in, because in trying to justify Jhana, there is less inclination to correct any understanding about the 4NT of the beginning level. In other words, one is drawn further and further away from the correct path. [no need to take this as being insulting]. I wanted to comment on parts of the post, but it is late and I going away tomorrow morning, coming back next week. And after that I'll likely be involved with trying to find new work / business to do. So please expect no response for quite some time. Just one last remark, the mention about the difficulty for Jhana attainments this day and age, is not meant to be accepted as kind of authority. But it should in fact be seen as an encouragement to develop more humble levels of kusala in daily life, within reach / which are we all have accumulations for. More importantly however, it is also showing the important difference between what the Buddha taught, namely about the development of Right View as against the development of other forms of kusala, which do absolutely nothing in terms of lessening "ignorance". And when we next hear about Jhana from other quarters, we are in a better position to discriminate wisely. Metta, Sukin #95519 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Thu Jan 29, 2009 7:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vipassanaa, Survey Ch 34, no. 12. epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Rob Ep, > Op 29-jan-2009, om 7:36 heeft Robert Epstein het volgende geschreven: > > > I don't see a reason why, once set up and grounded > > in breathing, one cannot then discern the momentary realities as they > > arise. It is not mutually exclusive. > ------ > N: What you say is correct. It refers to a person who develops both > samatha and vipassana. For samatha he is sitting crosslegged etc. > already. The sitting comes naturally to him. > --------- Thank you for your clarification. That makes some sense to me. > > > > R: In K. Sujin's example of people all sitting there with her > > naturally > > and discerning this or that quality that arises, it is the same thing. > > They have all gathered to talk to her and discuss dhamma, and while > > doing so they are also aware of what is arising in the moment. It is > > the same with the meditation setup. I don't see a substantive > > difference. The idea that in meditation we are supposed to strive to > > attend to a distant object of some kind that is not in the present > > moment seems a mischaracterization to me. > --------- > N: It all depends on the citta whether it is with lobha, clinging to > a quick result, or whether it is kusala citta with understanding of > the level of listening and considering in order to have more > understanding. All I am saying is that this would be equally true for *any* organized activity, whether it is listening to K. Sujin with attachment to the hope that she will give them insight that will accelerate their progress, or whether it is sitting with the aim of reaching a higher level of discernment, in each case if the person does not acknowledge the current reality, they will be in concept. I just don't accept the distinction with this regard between "formal dhamma talks" and "formal meditation," but there is much prejudice on the meditation side here, and *no* warnings of any problem arising with the attachment to K. Sujin, to dhamma talks, or to reading the suttas with an aim to understand Abdhidhamma rather than understand the current namas and rupas. I don't see why one activity should be looked at as "most likely akusala" and the others are deemed as "just fine with no problems." And that is the way these things are usually talked about here. Meditation is constantly referred to as inherently problematic, and the fruits of meditation even to the level of samatha as highly unlikely. And that is something I cannot accept. It just seems like a prejudice to me based on a very specific philosophy that does not have justification for that view. It's part of a cultural agreement, not part of an understanding of the truth. > As we read:Kh S: which have not arisen yet as objects of awareness.> > Suppose I have desire for more awareness and want to select specific > objects to concentrate on and therefore I prefer to sit still in a > quiet room for a long time, that would not be natural for me. I force > myself with lobha. I do not 'let sati arise' because of its own > conditions. I do not understand that sati is anatta, that it has no > owner. Lobha comes in and hinders. Listening and a growing > understanding of what sati is and what the realities it can be aware > of are conditions that can be developed. How? By listening and > considering again and again. Patience and perseverance. And how is this different from "meditating again and again" with patience and perserverance. One is just as likely to spot the desire for a future result or an object of choice in meditation as in a dhamma lecture. In fact with some samatha in play or just a basic relaxed awareness in meditation, it may be *more* likely to spot the akusala desires, not less. Of course the aim in meditation is to to *spot* these akusala arisings, not to ignore them and get hypnotized on the breathing. > We can understand what Kh Sujin means if we consider the different > cittas that motivate our actions in a day. If not, one is bound to > interprete all her words in a wrong way and thus misunderstandings > arise. Well that is good, as it acknowledges that one may just as likely misunderstand her instructions as they may misunderstand or distort the Buddha's instructions on anapanasati. The danger is always there, and we must be alert. But that says nothing at all against "formal meditation" as opposed to "formal dhamma talks" or "formal sutta or com reading." One had better be mindful to spot the intention in doing any of those things, rather than distinguishing one as good and the other activity as bad. Best, Robert Ep. =========================== #95520 From: "ptaus1" Date: Thu Jan 29, 2009 7:12 am Subject: Re: Q.[dsg] Beginner abhidhamma questions ptaus1 Dear Nina, thanks for your reply, that cleared it up for me. I have a number of questions about ADL chapter 9, so I was wondering if it's OK to start posting them now, or it would be better to wait until you come back from the trip to Thailand? Thanks pt #95521 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Thu Jan 29, 2009 7:19 am Subject: Re: Deluded fundamentalists: thesis on Sujin Boriharnwanaket epsteinrob --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Epstein" > wrote: > > > >. I find that throughout the Universe as > > I know it, including Martians and other species, those who are sure > > that their way is the one right way are usually deluded. That goes > > for most brands of fundamentalists, whatever the religion. > > > > ++++ > dear robert > Wonderful you are so openminded, not like those crazed > fundamentalists (of whatever religion). > I have to wonder though if there is any outlook that you have faith in. > Do you think the Buddha taught rebirth, or would it be only an extreme > fundamentalist literalist nut who thought so (i see this sometimes on the > internet). Would suggesting the Buddha never taught that there is a > creator God be going all fundie nutto again. > Or is it only points that you are unsure of - or views you disagree with- > that are the real deluded extreme ones? > Robert > I have faith in the Buddha's overall path because it makes sense to me. I have especial faith in the path of meditation because I resonate with it personally. Others may have other ways of approaching Buddha's teachings, such as sutta study and looking at daily realities -- which we should all include in any case -- and that is fine too. What I do not have faith in is any one person's or sect's interpretation of the path or the suttas or the Abdhidhamma or of the role of meditation or sutta study, including my own. I consider myself in a learning process, and I don't trust anyone -- unless they claim to be an arahant, in which case they may have specially pure understanding -- who says that they know the way, that their way is right and other ways are definitively wrong. If someone makes such a claim, let them present evidence from their own experience to defend that view. For myself, I don't care if someone is a Tibetan, Sri Lankan, Thai or American or Dutch, if they are following the Buddha's instructions as they understand them they are on the path, their path and they will reach the Buddha's teachings in their own way. We can support, clarify and even sometimes instruct each other, but there is no room for smugness that we know the final truth unless we have experienced it personally. Now I have my own prejudice, I like the openness and awareness that I experience when Imanage to meditate. I also have developed a taste for sutta and now have much more enthusiasm for it than in the past - this is obviously due to arising conditions and I follow that flow as it arises. Others prefer to lead with sutta and commentary and don't like the "flavor" of meditation, and that is fine. Let them follow their path as well. Each should be free to follow the path without prejudice. If someone directly contradicts what is said in sutta, we can have some argument about this, that is fine too. No one has the final truth except an arahant. Best, Robert ========================== #95522 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Thu Jan 29, 2009 7:24 am Subject: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions /and Re: Suttas- the time to epsteinrob Hi Scott. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott" wrote: > The problem lies in the thought, '*I have* intention...'. Good information and good warning, but applies equally to any activity we do on behalf of the eight-fold path, including deeds, readings, metta, lectures and discussions. And meditation too, but no different. I still don't have the slightest answer as to why meditation is especially precarious and even shunned, compared to these other activities. They can all equally have *I have* intention, or not. Robert ================ #95523 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Thu Jan 29, 2009 7:28 am Subject: Re: thesis on Sujin Boriharnwanaket epsteinrob --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > When I first joined DSG I quickly came to realise that all of my > formal meditation practices over the previous 26 years had been wrong > practices. So my practices were insulted. I wasn't insulted. :-) > > Ken H Your realization may have been good for you, but not objective for all. Your understanding of the dhamma may not be correct for all. Since you are not a stream entrant, so far as I know to date, you cannot have certainty that your interpretations are correct. To hold onto a view blocks you from seeing things as they are. The drunk looking for the car keys in the wrong place assumes that you know he is drunk, not you, and that the car keys are in fact where you think they are. Do you know this for sure from personal experience? If I can see the car keys right in front of me that is one thing. I have read a note about where they are and believe I understand it, that is quite another. Best, Robert E. =============================== #95524 From: "dkotschessa" Date: Thu Jan 29, 2009 7:30 am Subject: Re: Q.[dsg] Beginner abhidhamma questions dkotschessa --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > Dear Nina, thanks for your reply, that cleared it up for me. > > I have a number of questions about ADL chapter 9, so I was wondering > if it's OK to start posting them now, or it would be better to wait > until you come back from the trip to Thailand? > > Thanks > pt > Chapter 9?? Sheesh! -DaveK (Who definately thinks you should wait so he can catch up to you) #95525 From: "Scott" Date: Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:18 am Subject: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions /and Re: Suttas- the time to scottduncan2 Dear Robert E., Regarding: R: "Good information and good warning, but applies equally to any activity we do on behalf of the eight-fold path, including deeds, readings, metta, lectures and discussions..." Scott: Correct. R: "...And meditation too, but no different. I still don't have the slightest answer as to why meditation is especially precarious and even shunned, compared to these other activities..." Scott: Please define 'meditation.' "...They can all equally have *I have* intention, or not." Scott: Only intention (or *only* siila, or *only* pariyatti, or *only* the factors of the Eightfold Path, or *only* mettaa). Never 'I have' or 'I do.' Sincerely, Scott. #95526 From: TGrand458@... Date: Thu Jan 29, 2009 3:42 am Subject: Re: Clarification Re: [dsg] Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. TGrand458@... Hi Alberto I don't clearly understand your response below but infer you are saying "only arahants" are not-self? If so, this is false. If you are saying only arahants are totally free from any delusion of self, then that's OK. But irregardless, all things are not self and there are no selves. TG OUT In a message dated 1/29/2009 12:27:16 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, sprlrt@... writes: Hi TG, > TG: There are no "selves." Only "arahants". Alberto #95527 From: "sprlrt" Date: Thu Jan 29, 2009 9:25 am Subject: Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. sprlrt Dear Nina, thanks for the quote. - Alberto N: We read in the "Paììhåna" ( same section, § 423, IIb): "Confidence, precept, learning, generosity, wisdom is related to lust, hate, delusion, conceit, wrong views, wish, by (natural) strong dependence-condition." #95528 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 29, 2009 11:11 am Subject: Re: Q.[dsg] Beginner abhidhamma questions nilovg Dear pt, please fire off now, I only close my Email this coming Monday. Nina. Op 29-jan-2009, om 16:12 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > I have a number of questions about ADL chapter 9, so I was wondering > if it's OK to start posting them now, or it would be better to wait > until you come back from the trip to Thailand? #95529 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 29, 2009 11:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] thesis on Sujin Boriharnwanaket nilovg Hi Herman, Op 29-jan-2009, om 9:31 heeft Herman Hofman het volgende geschreven: > N: I see your point. Each person lives according to his accumulated > > inclinations, and this is a point emphasized by Kh Sujin. > > If by the above you mean that a person can only repeat their past, > then I would like to strongly question such a view. > > Perhaps you/KS mean something else? ------- N: Not automatically repeating one's past. New accumulations are added each moment. But accumulated inclinations certainly have a great influence. Even from former lives we do not know of. Nina. #95530 From: Herman Hofman Date: Thu Jan 29, 2009 1:47 pm Subject: Re: Clarification Re: [dsg] Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. egberdina Hi TG, 2009/1/30 : > Hi Alberto > > > I don't clearly understand your response below but infer you are saying > "only arahants" are not-self? If so, this is false. > > > If you are saying only arahants are totally free from any delusion of self, > then that's OK. But irregardless, all things are not self and there are no > selves. > > Quite so. Cheers Herman #95531 From: "colette" Date: Thu Jan 29, 2009 3:51 pm Subject: "Funny how time can just slip right away" Joe Hinton ksheri3 Hi Group, I'm in a blue mood and a blue period since one of the few friends I had just past away and everybody thought I was his relative. I began the process, today, of honoring my word to him that I'd take care of things for him. In the process of walking to/from my home to his home, then to the library, I've had time to contemplate quite a bit. If you don't know me, then you wouldn't understand how much walking I've always done since 1980 (in 1982 I walked out of Phoenix Arizona to Gallup N.M., or, when the Baptist mission I was living in, in the L.A. high desert, searched my things and found my deck of tarot card [a Waite Deck], they shipped me back to Santa Monica where all public agencies told me that I'd have to walk to the Barrio, E.L.A., if I wanted help from a public service, not in the White Middle Class suburbia of Santa Monica sonny), and this tremendous amount of walking I've done has always come in handy to help facilitate my meditation and contemplations. The past week I've been holding true to the practices prescribed in the Tibetan Book of the Dead and "visualizing" my friend as "a hearer" and therefore can hear my words I send to him through intense concentration and meditation. Today, as I spoke with others in the Single Room Occupancy building and then the landlord I realized just how important I truely was to him and this has thrown me for a bit of a loop, temporarily. The problems I'm having are the confrontation that was/is INEVITABLE between the Madhyamika and "reality". As a matter of fact, I believe upasaka Howard gave a post concerning the potential for this life to be nothing more than a "Hologram" existance where Howard referred to itas being for those "momentarians" among us. Any student of citta and vipissan surely knows the reality here however I am confronted by the pure conceptualization of actual "individuals" since I began to realize that I am clinging to something that will never be again and I am also practicing Bardo Theories which is, also, a form of clinging. With respect to the Doctrine of Shunyata and Citta I find that at this second, I AM IN WAY OVER MY HEAD but have been here before and know my way out It's a very amazing experience. I was wondering if Howard would be kind enough to give me the message # where I can find the link to the articles he gave as a start for the quantum physics applications? thanks. toodles, colette #95532 From: "Scott" Date: Thu Jan 29, 2009 6:21 pm Subject: Re: "Funny how time can just slip right away" Joe Hinton scottduncan2 Dear colette, Regarding: c: "I'm in a blue mood and a blue period since one of the few friends I had just past away and everybody thought I was his relative. I began the process, today, of honoring my word to him that I'd take care of things for him..." Scott: Sorry to hear of your loss, colette. Sounds like you were close. Peace. Sincerely, Scott. #95533 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Thu Jan 29, 2009 6:35 pm Subject: Re: Deluded fundamentalists: thesis on Sujin Boriharnwanaket rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Epstein" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Epstein" > > wrote: > > > > > >. I find that throughout the Universe as > > > I know it, including Martians and other species, those who are sure > > > that their way is the one right way are usually deluded. That goes > > > for most brands of fundamentalists, whatever the religion. > > > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > Others prefer to lead with sutta and commentary and don't like the > "flavor" of meditation, and that is fine. Let them follow their path > as well. Each should be free to follow the path without prejudice. > If someone directly contradicts what is said in sutta, we can have > some argument about this, that is fine too. No one has the final > truth except an arahant. > > Best, > Robert > Dear Robert Ok but on many buddhist forums calling another member a 'fundamentalist" is seen as trolling. I know that on dsg insults are almost daily life but moderation of behaviour can be useful. http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/index.php? act=announce&f=143&id=43 >>>>>>Right Speech 8) . Abusive speech, including insults regarding race, nationality, culture, gender, sexual orientation, religion, or personal disability will be considered an act of violence and cause for termination of privileges. 9) The use of the term "fundamentalist", as an appellation of another Buddhist's view, is not permitted on this board.>>>>>>>>>>endquote from terms of use. Robert #95534 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Thu Jan 29, 2009 7:41 pm Subject: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions /and Re: Suttas- the time to epsteinrob Hi Scott. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott" wrote: > > Dear Robert E., > > Regarding: > > R: "Good information and good warning, but applies equally to any > activity we do on behalf of the eight-fold path, including deeds, > readings, metta, lectures and discussions..." > > Scott: Correct. > > R: "...And meditation too, but no different. I still don't have the > slightest answer as to why meditation is especially precarious and > even shunned, compared to these other activities..." > > Scott: Please define 'meditation.' Sitting in a quiet place, free from insects and distractions in a balanced position with the spine relatively straight and the breathing natural, being mindful of the breath, the four foundations of mindfulness and whatever arises in the moment, for an extended period of time. I'll take my definition directly from sutta.... > "...They can all equally have *I have* intention, or not." > > Scott: Only intention (or *only* siila, or *only* pariyatti, or > *only* the factors of the Eightfold Path, or *only* mettaa). > Never 'I have' or 'I do.' My point was that all activities are susceptible to the *bad* I-thought, not that you *should* have the I-thought. You still haven't said why meditation - that is, sitting and following the breath, sensations, emotions, thoughts, mental factors, as they arise, is to be shunned and can only be akusala, any more than sutta reading or lectures. I can keep repeating this question, or you can take a stab at answering it, or tell me that you can't answer it. Best, Robert E. ======================== #95535 From: "Scott" Date: Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:00 pm Subject: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions /and Re: Suttas- the time to scottduncan2 Dear Robert E., R: "...You still haven't said why meditation - that is, sitting and following the breath, sensations, emotions, thoughts, mental factors, as they arise, is to be shunned and can only be akusala, any more than sutta reading or lectures. I can keep repeating this question, or you can take a stab at answering it, or tell me that you can't answer it." Scott: Thank you, Rob, I think I'll pass on following up on this, if you don't mind. Sincerely, Scott. #95537 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:16 pm Subject: Re: thesis on Sujin Boriharnwanaket epsteinrob Hi Sukin! [Whoops, reposting with attribution.] Good to see you too, Sukin, although I am a bit harsh below..... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinder" wrote: > > Dear Rob Ep and Ken H, > > I would like to use this post to express some understandings, I hope > you both don't mind. > Good to see you back Rob. :-) > Ken H. said: > > > Some people who have great respect for her as a teacher still > > > continue with their ritualistic samatha and vipassana practices. > They > > > desperately want her to approve of those practices, but she > won't. I > > > think she once explained that those people were 'seeking > permission > > > to keep going round and round on the wheel of samsara.' > > > > > > Ken H Rob comments: Thanks for repeating Ken's statement here. He said in a later post that he did not mean "ritual" negatively, but it is clear in context that he meant it as a patently false activity that is akusala. Rob had said: > > There are potentially some presuppositions in your statement that > are > > not necessarily correct. > > > > One is the use of "ritualistic" to describe samatha/vipassana > > meditation. This implies that it is empty and fruitless, something > > that you most likely do not know, but only feel based on your > personal > > opinion and philosophy. It is disparaging to say that someone > else's > > practice is "ritualistic" unless you can in fact specify what this > > means and show that it is going through the motions of the path > > without having the desired result. > > I believe Ken has given quite a few explanations about all this here > on DSG. Also we know that there have been many posts by others on > this topic, including the one by Kom which Nina posted. Now I thought > that Kom's post would have caused you and others to question your > ideas about Jhana, but apparently it didn't have the kind of effect. > So I guess that this and all those other posts actually failed to > qualify as `explanation' simply because of the very different > understanding, would you think? I would need to see quotes of what you were referring to, in order to be clear about this one way or the other. What makes you think that no one has changed their idea about jhana, etc. Do you have any quotes that made you think this? > > I'm not sure how much what I write below will explain anything, but > perhaps it will help you to see better the big difference in the > outlook…. > > When asked, I think you will agree that at any given moment, in > reality, there is only consciousness with its concomitant mental > factors arisen to experience an object and performing other > functions, and falling away immediately. Much of the time however, > one of these mental factors is ignorance and the object is a > `concept'. At such times these concepts are taken seriously by virtue > of other akusala mental factors including tanha, mana and ditthi. > > But the question is how far we really agree about all this? Who knows? I am exploring and questioning, but I do have a reaction to things that seem dogmatic or false. As for the cetasikas, what does ignorance look like as a mental factor? Can there be ignorance in the abstract, as an absolute? What does that mean? Have you ever seen "ignorance" walking down the street? Does it have a color or texture? It seems that many of these purported mental factors are abstract ideas. Have the been described as realities? How does that work? See, I am full of questions about this philosophy. > I believe that at the intellectual level alone, there is much room > for increased understanding of the above. Beginning with any initial > `seeing sense' in the proposition, one would have to continue > listening, discussing and considering almost endlessly, about as many > aspects of the Teachings as possible, all with growing understanding > about the reality / concept distinction and applied to the present > moment experience. This is suttamaya panna and cintamaya panna and > perhaps occasionally some bhavanamaya panna. Straightening of view is > not about getting the `facts' right, but the arising of one of these > three levels of understanding. And being a matter of panna arising to > understand something about the present moment, all these levels help > to see ideas aimed at the past and future for what they are. > > The development of understanding therefore involves increasingly > being drawn to the present moment / paramattha dhammas, and away from > ideas about another time, place, posture, object etc. / concept. No problem about that. All Buddhist philosophies aim towards the present moment, now, and discerning the reality of what exists. There may be disagreement however, on what that is. When > Ken pointed out to you about `meditation' being future oriented, this > I believe is where he was coming from. It is not so much what you > "do", but the "view" which matters. Yes, and as I keep asking, why should meditatio be *assumed* to have a futuristic view, while sutta reading does not have that assumption attached to it? I have been waiting and waiting for a reasonable answer to this question. It seems there isn't one. Sitting down to read sutta is just as "formal" as sitting down to meditate. It has just as much of a sense of purpose. One can drop the future intention and focus on the moment, or not, in any activity. That depends on the person and the conditions they are functioning under. So sutta reading may be a big futuristic addiction for one person, and a form of contemplation of the present moment for another. So, again, why the prejudice against sitting and following the breath, in order to look into the four foundations of mindfulness and develop sati? Why is that any different from sitting down to read a commentary with the intention to understand realities better? Why is meditation shunned and com reading encouraged? An answer to this simple question would be welcomed. When watching TV or surfing, > craving may be the only big problem, however when it comes to > "meditation", this must involve some kind of `view' and it can't be > Right View! Why is that? Because Right View when it arises, has the present moment > as object and knows it to be `conditioned'. So then we should not be reading sutta or commentaries either, nor the Abhidhamma. *None* of those activities is present-moment oriented at all. It is reading about ideas to apply them to realities, not the realities themselves. Shouldn't we then all be naked without any activities at all, and sit under the bodhi tree full time eating a minimum of food to keep up our discerning ability and never do a single planned activity of any kind? It's the only way to insure purity of the natural moment! Personally, I would rather meditate, which has little distraction from the present moment, since that is its purpose, than fill my head with distracting concepts from the commentaries on the commentaries. That seems to be out of the present moment to me. Not to you? And this is true for all > moments, so why follow ideas about someone who needs to sit, note, > pay attention, focus etc.? Why follow ideas about someone who needs to read, discuss, consider, think, etc.? Very formal!!! Not natural!!! Bad!!! The imperative would be to understand what > appears "now" more than anything wouldn't it? Yes, one can do that more easily sitting and breathing than reading and talking. You've got it reversed I think. > Besides, before hearing the Dhamma, all we knew were concepts, and > this includes ideas about a `self' who needs to do something in order > to gain results. We identified with our thoughts / intentions with > complete ignorance, including those times when we did `good'. What we > call introspection / noting and later the concept of `meditation', we > invested so much `self' into these that we now are unwilling to > question. Hearing the Dhamma including about Satipatthana and what > the panna of this level knows, we are in fact given the chance to > look at and question all this. But this doesn't seem to happen with > most. I think that most who read the suttas and commentaries are lost in concepts too; concepts about the Dhamma and about the nature of dhammas. Tell me, when exactly do they stop reading and thinking and look directly at namas and rupas? It takes some discipline to do this. I doubt it happens by itself most of the time, even if you understand dhammas on paper. > > So while some agree at one level that there are only dhammas, however > when it comes to `meditation', I see so much resistance which I take > to be due to attachment and wrong view. What about the attachment to the coms and teachngs and teachers and discussions. Don't you think this is an impediment too? By the way, where do you see all this attachment and wrong view in meditation? When and where have you observed this? Can you give a concrete example of wrong view connected to meditation? Or is this something that arises within your own mind? This following of the idea is > `ritualistic' because it involves an idea of `self' who needs to do > something in particular in order that wisdom may arise, like read a sutta in complete > ignorance of and resistance to the importance of knowing the dhammas > involved during such moments. like reading a commentary and ignoring the actual dhamma of the moment. When you are reading a com are you focused the entire time on the cittas that are "seeing" the words on the page, etc.; or are you involved with the concepts that the words represent? That is a dangerous attachment! And those that are particularly > associated with ideas about prior attainment of `calm' as gateway to > insight / wisdom, this is what Silabattaparamasa is about. > > What I had hoped Kom's post would do in considering Jhana, was bring > you and others to seeing the importance of understanding nama and > rupa in daily life. Well you may possibly be attached to daily life. You might want to consider this. It may be true that you and others rightly > appreciate that Jhana is a very high level of kusala which the Buddha > praised. However it seems that you go wrong everywhere else around > the particular concept. Really? Can you cite examples? Where do we go wrong? Be specific. Beginning with seeing the relationship > between Jhana and the more humble levels of kusala in daily life, > which you'll admit to arising so infrequently compared to akusala, > you don't seem to want to see this. How does this "seeming" come about. How do we "seem" this way to you? Is there something specific you are discerning that evidences this inability to acknowledge the akusala moments? How is this taking place? But Jhana is the culmination of > the development of kusala of levels we clearly are nowhere near. That is a concept in your mind. > Kom's post captured this point so well. > > I believe that people have allowed themselves to be so carried away > by concepts such as Jhana and others, that not only these blind them > to the reality of where they really are at, but they go on to even > use the ideas to argue against the importance of keeping on listening > and develop understanding patiently at more humble levels. I have never said that. Please quote me. I think you are making an awful lot of this up in your own mind, and that you are very involved in akusala concepts about others' practice and understanding in this post. It does not seem accurate to me. You must give some evidence to back up your stream of aversion here. There is > so much more to be developed at the level, not only of cintamaya > panna, but also suttamaya panna. Those are concepts to you, unless you are experiencing them at this moment. See, we all work with concepts to interpret reality. YOu are not discerning cintamaya panna in this moment, you are relying on the concept of cintamaya panna. I think that you have disguised your dependence on concepts behind the concept of discerning dhammas, but where is the dhamma here? It is all concept, and aversion to others' concepts that are not to your taste. It's all concepts all the way through as far as I can see. Seeing how little we know is seeing > the importance of Dhamma and an inclination hence, to lending ear, > discussing and considering more. That is your preferred path. You are saying "You should do this, not that. This is the way, not that." All of that is giving instructions, assuming a being, assuming a teaching. None of that is discerning with panna in the moment. Back to the drawing board. Start from scratch. Knowledge and understanding of the > 4NT starts with the level of listening, Please quote dhamma that this is the start and that other activities come later. and here one comes to > understand better and better the Path. Also here the particular > relationship between pariyatti, patipatti and pativedha is > appreciated. All concepts, at least at this moment. > I believe that it is reflection of the lack of understanding at the > level of pariyatti which makes the wrong association of the Path with > Jhana. I believe that you are making this up. You may believe it, but that doesn't mean it is true. I don't experience confusing jhanna with something else. I see it as it is described, as a possible reality, not as an association with the concept of the Path. The Path does not exist as such by the way, it is a concept. Have you seen The Path? What does it look like? How hard is it? Does it have a color? Not a good position to be in, because in trying to justify > Jhana, there is less inclination to correct any understanding about > the 4NT of the beginning level. You continue to reflect your own prejudices, and cite ideas that no one has said. Please quote in future, to back up your accusations, and do not make unwarranted assumptions about others' views. In other words, one is drawn further > and further away from the correct path. [no need to take this as > being insulting]. It is just inaccurate. It is hard to be insulted by something that is made up and does not come from anything I have said. You seem to be in a self-enclosed state of your own concepts about this situation and have much aversion to anyone being interested in jhana. Is that good for you? > I wanted to comment on parts of the post, but it is late and I going > away tomorrow morning, coming back next week. And after that I'll > likely be involved with trying to find new work / business to do. So > please expect no response for quite some time. Well, you have made quite a statement just before leaving. I will have to wait.... > > Just one last remark, the mention about the difficulty for Jhana > attainments this day and age, is not meant to be accepted as kind of > authority. But it should in fact be seen as an encouragement to > develop more humble levels of kusala in daily life, within reach / > which are we all have accumulations for. We will each reach whatever we are capable of, no more no less, and be attracted to the practice that conditons allow. It will be fine. More importantly however, it > is also showing the important difference between what the Buddha > taught, namely about the development of Right View as against the > development of other forms of kusala, which do absolutely nothing in > terms of lessening "ignorance". And when we next hear about Jhana > from other quarters, we are in a better position to discriminate > wisely. > > Metta, > > Sukin I realize that your intention is to be helpful and that you have a particular way of looking what is right and wrong for the path, but I think you should also consider your own conceptual base and the way in which you are referencing it. It is clear to me that you are not seeing me or others you refer to with clarity. We are not running around trying to attain jhana, we are looking at the path in terms of sutta, discussion, discernment and meditation, all promoted directly by the Buddha. It is a balanced view and your magnifying glass is making it look distorted. You are trapped in a negative view of this, and do not seem to realize it. Please let it go. Best, Robert E. ================================== #95538 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:22 pm Subject: Re: Deluded fundamentalists: thesis on Sujin Boriharnwanaket epsteinrob Hi Robert. > Dear Robert > Ok but on many buddhist forums calling another member > a 'fundamentalist" is seen as trolling. > I know that on dsg insults are almost daily life but moderation of > behaviour can be useful. > http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/index.php? > act=announce&f=143&id=43 > > >>>>>>Right Speech > > 8) . Abusive speech, including insults regarding race, nationality, > culture, gender, sexual orientation, religion, or personal disability will be > considered an act of violence and cause for termination of privileges. > > 9) The use of the term "fundamentalist", as an appellation of another > Buddhist's view, is not permitted on this board.>>>>>>>>>>endquote > from terms of use. > Robert > I think it is not just hair-splitting to say that I was conscious of making a general point and not accusing anyone in particular of being a fundamentalist. I think my point that it is easy to get stuck on a particular dogma and that this may apply to some people in *any* religion or practice, is a valid one that does not insult a person, but points out a danger of dogmatic thinking. I am sure there are more than a few people who are in the meditation communities to which this would apply as well. Is it wrong to give such a warning and evaluation when no one in particular or from one group only is being accused? I wonder if you would consider that. Quite harsh characterizations have sometimes been aimed at me and others as well, although they may occasionally be cloaked in milder phrasing. I think for instance that the use of the word "ritualistic" to apply to meditation practice is just as disparaging as the term "fundamentalist" to those [in general] who are attached to a particular religious doctrine. Do you disagree? Best, Robert E. =============================== #95539 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:25 pm Subject: Re: Deluded fundamentalists: thesis on Sujin Boriharnwanaket epsteinrob --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > 9) The use of the term "fundamentalist", as an appellation of another > Buddhist's view, is not permitted on this board.>>>>>>>>>>endquote > from terms of use. > Robert Again, I would like to point out that I did not accuse anyone in particular of being a fundamentalist but making a general point. Please re-read the paragraph in which the statement occurred. Are we not allowed to talk about fundamentalism as a general topic? Best, Robert E. ================================= #95540 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:27 pm Subject: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions /and Re: Suttas- the time to epsteinrob Hi Scott. > > Scott: Thank you, Rob, I think I'll pass on following up on this, if > you don't mind. > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > That is fine, Scott. I just must note in passing that I have never gotten an answer to this question, not just from you but from anyone. Best, Robert ====================== #95541 From: "Sukinder" Date: Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:33 pm Subject: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions /and Re: Suttas- the time to sukinderpal Hi Rob Ep (and Scott), On my way out I thought to take a last look in. Robert: My point was that all activities are susceptible to the *bad* I-thought, not that you *should* have the I-thought. You still haven't said why meditation - that is, sitting and following the breath, sensations, emotions, thoughts, mental factors, as they arise, is to be shunned and can only be akusala, any more than sutta reading or lectures. I can keep repeating this question, or you can take a stab at answering it, or tell me that you can't answer it. Sukin: I'll try. What subject one finds important one studies. Someone interested in astronomy will read on the subject as a natural consequence. It is the same with Dhamma. One reads, discusses and thinks about Dhamma because of what has been accumulated. While reading Suttas or anything else related to Dhamma, the interest is maintained and one reads for hours without any prompt, is that not? So too, on initially deciding to open a book this happens out of interest, chanda. Someone with this kind of natural inclination to meditation / Jhana, would be one whose life style is very different from you and I. Buddhists today, jump at the idea with a view that this is going to give them some particular result. In other words they were not drawn naturally to find a quiet place to try and attain Jhana by virtue of their natural inclination to develop kusala / shun sensual contacts, but rather being moved by an idealistic and wrong view about what meditation / Jhana is and what they may get from it. Worse, Jhana is associated wrongly with the Path, and what this leads to is neither Jhana nor Vipassana. That was just a quick response, will say more if I get a chance. Metta, Sukin #95542 From: "connie" Date: Thu Jan 29, 2009 9:57 pm Subject: Singular Occupancy nichiconn dear colette, ... good if the loss of a loved one brings about a gain in wisdom, no? I wish you much wealth. I'm reading Kindred Sayings with Verses, so let me share with you part of what was said to Udaya: Again, again we tire and toil anew, Again, again the slow wits seek rebirth, Again, again comes birth and dying comes, Again, again men bear us to the grave. When once the man of broad insight the Path Which brings no new becoming doth attain, Then is he no more born again, again. KS I vii 2 $2 and this, said at "The Ploughing": I weed with truth, and my release from work Is that fair thing of innermost desire. Energy is my burden-bearing team, Drawing my plough toward the haven sure. Onward it goes nor ever turneth back; And where it goeth we shall weep no more. KS I vii 1 $2 peace, connie #95543 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Thu Jan 29, 2009 10:03 pm Subject: Pali Sourse for Patience Re: [dsg] thesis on Sujin Boriharnwanaket abhidhammika Dear Robert E, Scott, Howard, colette, Robert K, Nina, DaveK and all How are you? Robert E wrote: "Something that struck me - and I don't remember exactly what sutta or sutra I read it in - and always stuck with me, was that Buddha made the statement somewhere that of all the paramis the most difficult and most important one was that of patience." Suan answered: I think you might be referring to the following verse from Dhammapada. Although it does not mention the paramiis, the fact of the Buddha declaring patience to be the highest practice could help us to include the phrase "among the paramiis" or "among the practices". Here is the quote: 184. "Khantii paramam tapo titikkhaa, nibbaanam paramam vadanti buddhaa; "The Buddhas declare that patience, forbearance, is the highest practice, and that Nibbaana is the highest." Verse 184, Buddhavaggo, Dhammapada, Khuddakanikaayo. Best wishes, Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org #95544 From: "ptaus1" Date: Fri Jan 30, 2009 12:33 am Subject: Re: Q.[dsg] Beginner abhidhamma questions ptaus1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "dkotschessa" wrote: > > Chapter 9?? Sheesh! > > -DaveK > > (Who definately thinks you should wait so he can catch up to you) > :) Hi meindzai, I found ADL much easier to read in conjunction with reading relevant chapters from Nina's other book Cetasikas. Reading both at the same time might seem like double the work, but in fact it saves time – most of the questions I had so far about ADL were covered in Cetasikas. pt (who wishes you speedy progress) #95545 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 30, 2009 12:33 am Subject: [dsg] Survey, Ch 36, no 3. nilovg Dear friends, Q. : People gain understanding from listening to the Dhamma. When they practise they can attain the first stage of vipassanå ñåna, “defining of nåma and rúpa”. They pass that stage. S. : How do they pass that stage? Q. : I do not know anything about that. S. : People should not become excited about it that others have passed a stage of insight knowledge. It is by a person’s own understanding that he can know that paññå has been developed to the degree of the first vipassanå ñåna. He knows that insight knowledge realizes nåma and rúpa as they naturally appear, one characteristic at a time, in a mind-door process. At the moments of vipassanå ñåna not merely one kind of nåma or one kind of rúpa has beeen penetrated. Q. : Someone may have practised insight unto to the fifth stage of mahå-vipassanå ñåna, the “knowledge of dispassion” (nibbidå ñåna). He watches the rúpa which sits, stands or walks, and he practises until he reaches the “knowledge of dispassion”. I have doubts about how he watches the rúpa which sits, stands or walks. How should we practise so that we can attain that stage of vipassanå ñåna? S. : What is the first stage of insight, “defining of nåma and rúpa”? So long as one has not realized that stage yet one cannot attain “knowledge of dispassion”. There is mindfulness of the body when sati is mindful of one characteristic at a time of rúpa paramattha, as it appears through the bodysense. It may be a rúpa such as cold, heat, softness, hardness, pressure or motion. Mindfulness of the body is not watching the postures of sitting, lying, standing or walking. When, for example, cold appears, there is only the characteristic of cold, there is no “I”, it is not “mine”, not self. If someone does not know the characteristic of rúpa as it appears through one doorway at a time, as only a kind of rúpa, he cannot even attain the first stage of insight knowledge, which discerns the difference between the characteristic of nåma and the characteristic of rúpa. How could paññå then realize the stage of “knowledge of dispassion”, the fifth stage of “principal insight” (mahå-vipassanå)? ********** Nina. #95546 From: "ptaus1" Date: Fri Jan 30, 2009 12:39 am Subject: Re: Q.[dsg] Beginner abhidhamma questions ptaus1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear pt, > please fire off now, I only close my Email this coming Monday. > Nina. > Dear Nina, great, here are the first couple of questions about ADL chapter 9 then: "When one, for example, is reading, the citta which sees experience only visible object and it does not know the meaning of the letters. After the eye-door process has been completed visible object is experienced through the mind-door and then there can be other mind-door processes of cittas which know the meaning of what has been written and which think about it." So, as long as the sense-process through the eye-door is going on, there is no knowing of what is being looked at, right? In other words, there is cognition (seeing), but there is no recognition (knowing that I'm looking at an apple), nor labeling ("this is an apple"). Recognition and labeling can happen only through the mind-door, right? If that is so, what is sanna cetasika doing all this time? As I remember, it is present with every citta, so how come it is not recognising the apple during the sense-door process cittas? Also, there seems to be a typo in the third question at the end of the chapter: "3. Can akusala cittas and kusala cittas and arise in a sense-door process?" What's the question you were actually asking? Thanks pt #95547 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 30, 2009 1:13 am Subject: Re: Q.[dsg] Beginner abhidhamma questions nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 29-jan-2009, om 14:38 heeft szmicio het volgende geschreven: > You metioned about internal and external ayatanas, but it's diffrent > then pa~nca khandha classification. > > I think that in khandhavibhanga Buddha didn't refer only to dhammas > which are external and internal in the sense of visible object and > eye... > > I think he also refers to concepts there. That's why he called it > external word. --------- N: The five khandhas are ultimate realities: citta, cetasikas and rupa. They are not concepts. Citta can think of concepts and citta is vi~n~naa.nakkhandha. I think we should talk first about the world. In the Commentaries it is often said: the world are the five khandhas. S.IV, 52 (Second Fifty, § 82) The world. <'"The world, the world" is the saying, lord. How far, lord, does this saying go?' 'It crumbles away, monks. Therefore it is called "the world". What crumbles away? The eye... objects...eye-consciousness... " Conditioned namas and rupas arise and fall away. What you take for the outward world are only visible object, sound etc. They appear one at a time. when sound appears, colour that was experienced before has fallen away. There is the world of colour, of sound, of smell, of flavour, of tangible object, of objects experienced through the mind- door. Only one world at a time. In the Visuddhimagga (VIII, 39) we read about the shortness of the world: ...in the ultimate sense the life-moment of living beings is extremely short, being only as much as the occurrence of a single conscious moment. Just as a chariot wheel, when it is rolling, rolls (that is, touches the ground) only on one point of (the circumference of) its tyre, and, when it is at rest, rests only on one point, so too, the life of living beings lasts only for a single conscious moment. When that consciousness has ceased, the being is said to have ceased... Life, person, pleasure, pain–just these alone Join in one conscious moment that flicks by. Ceased khandhas of those dead or alive Are all alike, gone never to return. No (world is) born if (consciousness is) not Produced, when that is present, then it lives; When consciousness dissolves, the world is dead... ---------- > > L: > I will give you an example: > (internal world) > when we realise that is only a citta which experiences, no self. > dhammas as dhammas. and also when we realise citta which thinks. ------- N: Perhaps you are thinking of the aayatanas, and citta is an internal aayatana. But the text you quoted from the Vibhanga was about the five khandhas being internal or external. In this classification each of the khandhas can be external or internal. These texts with different classifications are intricate, we have to look at the context each time. You quoted: "Therein what is external material quality? That material quality which, for this or that other being, for other persons is personal, self-referable, one's own, individual and is grasped(br craving and self view)(i.e.,) the four great essentials and the material qualities derived from the four great essentials.> Thus this is external ruupa: 'for this or that other being, for other persons'... And the same for the naamakhandhas: citta of another being is external. That is all there is. Not so complicated. ------ L I can also realise that is only a concpet(Pa~n~nati) which impinges on mind-door. Just citta which thinks. Isn't it an external world? -------- N: it is not a citta of another person, thus it is not an external vi~n~naa.nakkhandha. --------- Nina. #95548 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 30, 2009 1:44 am Subject: Re:Q. [dsg] Vipassanaa, Survey Ch 34, no. 12. nilovg Dear Rob Ep, Op 29-jan-2009, om 16:12 heeft Robert Epstein het volgende geschreven: > All I am saying is that this would be equally true for *any* organized > activity, whether it is listening to K. Sujin with attachment to the > hope that she will give them insight that will accelerate their > progress, or whether it is sitting with the aim of reaching a higher > level of discernment, in each case if the person does not acknowledge > the current reality, they will be in concept. -------- N: Yes, lobha can arise any time, no matter what one is doing. ------- > R: I just don't accept the > distinction with this regard between "formal dhamma talks" and "formal > meditation," but there is much prejudice on the meditation side here, > and *no* warnings of any problem arising with the attachment to K. > Sujin, to dhamma talks, or to reading the suttas with an aim to > understand Abdhidhamma rather than understand the current namas and > rupas. I don't see why one activity should be looked at as "most > likely akusala" and the others are deemed as "just fine with no > problems." And that is the way these things are usually talked about > here. Meditation is constantly referred to as inherently problematic, > and the fruits of meditation even to the level of samatha as highly > unlikely. -------- N: Let us avoid speaking of formal sitting, formal meditation, there is so much thinking involved with different types of cittas. It sounds complicated to me. I do not know other people's cittas, I can only mind 'my own'. I am a lay person without inclination to jhana or sitting for a long time (It makes me stiff, I have to get up and walk). I listened to a recording this morning, where someone said to Kh Sujin: 'Please help me to be aware of the characteristics of realities'. She answered: 'It must be this moment'. I listen to have more understanding of this moment and I feel that it does not make sense to think with lobha about future attainments. Before hearing the Dhamma there was akusala and kusala, but I did not know them as not self. It was me all the time. After listening I began to understand that akusala and kusala arise because of conditions and that there is no self who can manipulate them. Little by little understanding can develop so that the truth of anatta is seen more deeply, and this is bhaavanaa. It is not: 'not doing anything' as some people may believe. ------- > R quotes: > As we read:Kh S: realities > > which have not arisen yet as objects of awareness.> > ... Listening and a growing > > understanding of what sati is and what the realities it can be aware > > of are conditions that can be developed. How? By listening and > > considering again and again. Patience and perseverance. > > R: And how is this different from "meditating again and again" with > patience and perserverance. One is just as likely to spot the desire > for a future result or an object of choice in meditation as in a > dhamma lecture. In fact with some samatha in play or just a basic > relaxed awareness in meditation, it may be *more* likely to spot the > akusala desires, not less. Of course the aim in meditation is to to > *spot* these akusala arisings, not to ignore them and get hypnotized > on the breathing. ------ N: It is good you do not ignore lobha or run away from it. It all amounts to citta at this moment: is it kusala citta or akusala citta with lobha that may be very, very subtle. I like to remember that it is not self who does the spotting, but understanding, pa~n~naa. And there is more to it, not just noting, but realizing akusala as conditioned, not ours. That may be very difficult. We are so used to taking it for mine. ------- > > R quotes:> We can understand what Kh Sujin means if we consider the > different > > cittas that motivate our actions in a day. If not, one is bound to > > interprete all her words in a wrong way and thus misunderstandings > > arise. > R: One had better be mindful to spot the > intention in doing any of those things, rather than distinguishing one > as good and the other activity as bad. ----- N: Whatever we do, it is all conditioned, mere dhammas. No judgement. Just more understanding of citta now. Nina. #95549 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 30, 2009 2:11 am Subject: Re: Q.[dsg] Beginner abhidhamma questions nilovg Dear pt, Op 30-jan-2009, om 9:39 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > here are the first couple of questions about ADL > chapter 9 then: > > "When one, for example, is reading, the citta which sees experience > only visible object and it does not know the meaning of the letters. > After the eye-door process has been completed visible object is > experienced through the mind-door and then there can be other > mind-door processes of cittas which know the meaning of what has been > written and which think about it." > > So, as long as the sense-process through the eye-door is going on, > there is no knowing of what is being looked at, right? ------ N: Seeing only sees colour and the other cittas do not see but they experience just visible object. -------- > pt: In other words, > there is cognition (seeing), but there is no recognition (knowing that > I'm looking at an apple), nor labeling ("this is an apple"). > Recognition and labeling can happen only through the mind-door, right? > > If that is so, what is sanna cetasika doing all this time? As I > remember, it is present with every citta, so how come it is not > recognising the apple during the sense-door process cittas? -------- > N: Sa~n~naa is active at each moment of citta, it marks and > 'remembers' the object. It is not the same as what we call in > conventional language recognition. The apple is not the object in a > sensedoor process, just visible object or colour. -------- > pt:Also, there seems to be a typo in the third question at the end > of the > chapter: > "3. Can akusala cittas and kusala cittas and arise in a sense-door > process?" > > What's the question you were actually asking? ----- N: Exactly that. There are javanacittas also in sense-door processes, even on account of just colour, sound, etc. This shows us the danger of akusala cittas that can arise immediately after a brief moment of seeing or hearing, when it is not known yet whether the object was pleasant or unpleasant. -------- Nina. #95550 From: "sprlrt" Date: Fri Jan 30, 2009 3:12 am Subject: Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. sprlrt Hi Sarah (Howard, Nina) ... S: This is what Alberto is referring to - the 'direct' conditions, without which, there can never be the development of the path. ... Yes, I was referring to pakatupanissaya paccaya, habits, and I wasn't aware that Patthana actually includes past akusala dhammas as an indirect (kesanci) condtion, not something on which to rely then, for the arising of kusala dhammas and viceversa. Alberto #95551 From: "szmicio" Date: Fri Jan 30, 2009 3:47 am Subject: Re: Q.[dsg] Beginner abhidhamma questions szmicio Dear Nina > L: I can also realise that is only a > concpet(Pa~n~nati) which impinges on mind-door. Just citta which > thinks. > Isn't it an external world? > -------- > N: it is not a citta of another person, thus it is not an external > vi~n~naa.nakkhandha. L: Yes I know that. And I agree with you. I have so much benefit from reading those diffrent classification. The same Dhamma explained from diffrent angels. I am so grateful to Buddha that he thought in so many ways. Once he says about nama and rupa. Then about ayatanas or khandhas. I understand you very well, Nina. But I need to discuss it, more. Best wishes Lukas #95552 From: "Scott" Date: Fri Jan 30, 2009 4:39 am Subject: Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner scottduncan2 Dear All, Continuing: The Path of Purification. "37. But if he is still unable to quench that thought in this way, then he should review the advantages of lovingkindness thus: 'Now you have gone forth into homelessness, has it not been said by the Blessed One as follows: 'Bhikkhus, when the mind-deliverance of lovingkindness is cultivated, developed, much practised, made the vehicle, made the foundation, established, consolidated, and properly undertaken, eleven blessings can be expected. What are the eleven? a man sleeps in comfort, wakes in comfort, and dreams no evil dreams, he is dear to human beings, he is dear to non-human beings, deities guard him, fire and poison and weapons do not affect him, his mind is easily concentrated, the expression of his face is serene, he dies unconfused, if he penetrates no higher he will be reborn in the Brahmaa-world' (A.v,342). If you do not stop this thought, you will be denied these advantages.'." Path of Purity. "If he is still unable to pacify his heart, then he should reflect on the blessings of love: 'My good recluses! Has not the Blessed One spoken these words? ' Monks, the emancipation of heart through love being practised, developed, repeated, made a vehicle and a basis, persisted in, made familiar with, well set on foot, may be expected to produce eleven blessings. What are these eleven? Happy he sleeps; happy he awakes; he sees no bad dreams; he is dear to men; he is dear to non-human beings; devas guard him; fire, poison, and sword come not near him; quickly he concentrates his mind; his complexion is serene; he dies undeluded; and (if) he penetrates no further, he goes to Brahmaa's heaven' (A"nguttara v, 342. Cf. Jaataka ii 60, Araka-jaataka, which leaves out 'he is dear to non-human beings.') Unless thou wilt extinguish (the fires in) thy heart, thou wilt become an outsider to these blessings.'" Sace pana evampi citta.m nibbaapetu.m na sakkotiyeva, athaanena eva.m mettaanisa.msaa paccavekkhitabbaa - 'ambho pabbajita, nanu vutta.m bhagavataa - 'Mettaaya kho, bhikkhave, cetovimuttiyaa aasevitaaya bhaavitaaya bahuliikataaya yaaniikataaya vatthukataaya anu.t.thitaaya paricitaaya susamaaraddhaaya ekaadasaanisa.msaa paa.tika"nkhaa . Katame ekaadasa? Sukha.m supati, sukha.m pa.tibujjhati, na paapaka.m supina.m passati, manussaana.m piyo hoti, amanussaana.m piyo hoti, devataa rakkhanti, naassa aggi vaa visa.m vaa sattha.m vaa kamati, tuva.ta.m citta.m samaadhiyati, mukhava.n.no pasiidati, asammuu.lho kaala.nkaroti, uttarimappa.tivijjhanto brahmalokuupago hotii'ti (a. ni. 11.15). 'Sace tva.m ida.m citta.m na nibbaapessasi, imehi aanisa.msehi paribaahiro bhavissasii 'ti. Sincerely, Scott. #95553 From: "sprlrt" Date: Fri Jan 30, 2009 4:54 am Subject: Clarification Re: [dsg] Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. sprlrt Hi TG, Well said, I can only agree with you. Alberto --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@... wrote: > > Hi Alberto > > > I don't clearly understand your response below but infer you are saying > "only arahants" are not-self? If so, this is false. > > > If you are saying only arahants are totally free from any delusion of self, > then that's OK. But irregardless, all things are not self and there are no > selves. > > > TG OUT > > > > In a message dated 1/29/2009 12:27:16 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, > sprlrt@... writes: > > Hi TG, > > > TG: There are no "selves." > > Only "arahants". > > Alberto > > #95554 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jan 30, 2009 12:11 am Subject: Re: Pali Sourse for Patience Re: [dsg] thesis on Sujin Boriharnwanaket upasaka_howard Dear Suan (and Robert, and all) - In a message dated 1/30/2009 1:04:07 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, suanluzaw@... writes: Dear Robert E, Scott, Howard, colette, Robert K, Nina, DaveK and all How are you? Robert E wrote: "Something that struck me - and I don't remember exactly what sutta or sutra I read it in - and always stuck with me, was that Buddha made the statement somewhere that of all the paramis the most difficult and most important one was that of patience." Suan answered: I think you might be referring to the following verse from Dhammapada. Although it does not mention the paramiis, the fact of the Buddha declaring patience to be the highest practice could help us to include the phrase "among the paramiis" or "among the practices". Here is the quote: 184. "Khantii paramam tapo titikkhaa, nibbaanam paramam vadanti buddhaa; "The Buddhas declare that patience, forbearance, is the highest practice, and that Nibbaana is the highest." Verse 184, Buddhavaggo, Dhammapada, Khuddakanikaayo. Best wishes, Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org ================================= I thank Robert and you for pointing to the high value of patience. This is a good lesson, much appreciated. I would only add (something that you, of course, well know) that the worth of maintaining patience does not imply the appropriateness of acquiescing to nonsense or worse. Proper application of patience requires other supportive, wholesome traits and behavior. Patience is an internal matter manifesting in action, both internal and external. But right action is appropriately conditioned by a number of conditions only one of which is patience. And patience, like all good traits, if misapplied, can lead to bad results. Patience that permits or is used to justify acquiescence to nonsense or, even worse, to evil actions, is a patience harmfully misapplied. We see (what passes for) patience in the face of evil in the world all the time, and we need to realize that such patience is seriously misapplied. With metta, Howard (Anonymous) #95555 From: "connie" Date: Fri Jan 30, 2009 5:51 am Subject: cornerstone nichiconn Dear Friends, Karunadasa continues: As pointed out by K.N. Jayatilleke in his Early Buddhist Theory of Knowledge, one misconception about the Theravada version of double truth is that paramattha-sacca is superior to sammuti-sacca and that "what is true in the one sense is false in the other." 144 This observation that the distinction in question is not based on a theory of degrees of truth will become clear from the following free translation of the relevant passages contained in three commentaries: Herein references to living beings, gods, Brahma, etc., are sammuti-katha, whereas references to impermanence, suffering, egolessness, the aggregates of the empiric individuality, the spheres and elements of sense perception and mind-cognition, bases of mindfulness, right effort, etc., are paramattha-katha. One who is capable of understanding and penetrating to the truth and hoisting the flag of arahantship when the teaching is set out in terms of generally accepted conventions, to him the Buddha preaches the doctrine based on sammuti-katha. One who is capable of understanding and penetrating to the truth and hoisting the flag of arahantship when the teaching is set out in terms of ultimate categories, to him the Buddha preaches the doctrine based on paramattha-katha. To one who is capable of awakening to the truth through sammuti-katha, the teaching is not presented on the basis of paramattha-katha, and conversely, to one who is capable of awakening to the truth through paramattha-katha, the teaching is not presented on the basis of sammuti-katha. 144. Jayatilleke, p.364. ... to be continued, connie #95556 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Fri Jan 30, 2009 6:16 am Subject: Pali Sourse for Patience Re: [dsg] thesis on Sujin Boriharnwanaket abhidhammika Dear Howard, Robert E, Herman, Nina, Robert K, Alex, Scott and all How are you? Howard wrote: "I thank Robert and you for pointing to the high value of patience. This is a good lesson, much appreciated. I would only add (something that you, of course, well know) that the worth of maintaining patience does not imply the appropriateness of acquiescing to nonsense or worse. Proper application of patience requires other supportive, wholesome traits and behavior. Patience is an internal matter manifesting in action, both internal and external. But right action is appropriately conditioned by a number of conditions only one of which is patience. And patience, like all good traits, if misapplied, can lead to bad results. Patience that permits or is used to justify acquiescence to nonsense or, even worse, to evil actions, is a patience harmfully misapplied. We see (what passes for) patience in the face of evil in the world all the time, and we need to realize that such patience is seriously misapplied." Suan replies: Thank you for this sobering reminder, Howard. The Buddha would not tolerate his followers committing the wrong action, the wrong speech, the wrong view and the like. He would certainly censure them on the spot. In fact, as the result of the Buddha censuring misbehaved followers, we get Vinaya Pi.taka. Best wishes, Suan Lu Zaw #95557 From: "ptaus1" Date: Fri Jan 30, 2009 7:16 am Subject: Re: Q.[dsg] Beginner abhidhamma questions ptaus1 Dear Nina, thanks for that. Here are a few more related questions: 1. Could you please give a bit more detail about what santirana citta investigates and what votthapana citta determines? I mean, since they are not involved in recognising the meaning of the object that is seen, what are they actually occupied with - only color and shape of the object and nothing else (in terms of seeing)? 2. When sense-door process is finished and the mind-door process starts, since the rupa has fallen away at the end of the sense-door process, the object of the mind-door process is then based on memory of that rupa? In other words, sanna is then responsible for supplying the object of citta, since there's no more rupa? I'm confused about how the transition between sense and mind doors happens, without loosing the actual object. 3. When does the actual recognition of the object (and its meaning) take place during the mind-door process (after sense-door process has fallen away)? Is it during the mano-dvaravajjana citta, or later at one of the 7 javana cittas of the mind-door process? 4. There are no other cittas besides mano-dvaravajjana citta and 7 javana cittas, which operate in the mind door process? In other words, all the thinking, concepts, ideas, etc, they all happen only through mano-dvaravajjana citta and 7 javana cittas? Thanks pt #95558 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Jan 30, 2009 6:51 pm Subject: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions /and Re: Suttas- the time to kenhowardau Hi Robert Ep (and Scott), -------- <. . .> Scott: > > Please define 'meditation.' RE: > Sitting in a quiet place, free from insects and distractions in a balanced position with the spine relatively straight and the breathing natural, being mindful of the breath, the four foundations of mindfulness and whatever arises in the moment, for an extended period of time. ------- KH: This is the difficulty I was having with Suan. Where are those instructions found? I remember from my meditating days if there was, for example, a sudden, distracting pain in the legs, or a noise, we were instructed to shift our attention to it and to note "pain" "noise" (or "birdcall" etc) (although some manuals were opposed to verbalising) until it was no longer a distraction. And then we were to return to awareness of breathing or walking etc. But where did these instructions come from? ----------------------------------- RE: > I'll take my definition directly from sutta.... ----------------------------------- KH: > I believe the suttas - or the commentaries to the suttas - define meditation (bhavana) as panna, which is a conditioned dhamma. ------------------------------------------------ RE: > My point was that all activities are susceptible to the *bad* I-thought, not that you *should* have the I-thought. You still haven't said why meditation - that is, sitting and following the breath, sensations, emotions, thoughts, mental factors, as they arise, is to be shunned and can only be akusala, any more than sutta reading or lectures. I can keep repeating this question, or you can take a stab at answering it, or tell me that you can't answer it. ------------------------------------------------ The point Scott and others have been trying to make is that satipatthana is mindfulness of conditioned dhammas. What you have described here is 'thinking about concepts.' Thinking about concepts is an infinitely more common practice than satipatthana. Anyone can do it. Satipatthana, on the other hand, is extremely rare and difficult. If someone were to insist on thinking about concepts because it was easier, wouldn't he be like the man who insisted on searching for his car keys under the streetlight even thought he knew they weren't there? It just doesn't make sense! Once you realise it doesn't make sense you no longer keep an open mind about it. Ken G #95559 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Jan 30, 2009 7:24 pm Subject: Re: thesis on Sujin Boriharnwanaket kenhowardau Hi Rob Ep (and Sukin), -------- <. . .> RE: > Thanks for repeating Ken's statement here. He said in a later post > that he did not mean "ritual" negatively, but it is clear in context > that he meant it as a patently false activity that is akusala. -------- KH: Yes, but ritual, in the context of the Dhamma, is not as patently silly as ritual in an ordinary context. Ordinarily, a ritual is a 'magic' ceremony that superstitious people perform in order to scare off evil spirits or to win the lottery etc. I can see how you would be insulted if I accused you of that kind of ritual. In the context of the Dhamma, however, a ritual can be any kind of practice that makes sense when we deny the momentary, one-citta-at-a- time, nature of the world. That can happen very easily. Even people who are drawn to Dhamma talks with K Sujin can still have ideas of a persisting world with persisting people, persisting places and persisting things to do. And so they very easily fall into the trap of thinking (for example) "I should go on a meditation retreat and create a calm pliant mind ready for the arising of insight." They are cosy thoughts that stem from ignorance and wrong view. People who express them to KS - or at DSG - should be prepared for a cold shower. :-) Ken H #95560 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Fri Jan 30, 2009 10:46 pm Subject: Re: What the Buddha said... to whom? abhidhammika Dear Scott, Howard, Herman, Nina, colette, Robert K, Alex, Alberto and all Scott asked: "What is unprompted but arises? What prompts? What is prompted thereby?" Suan answers: 1. A mental event can arise without being prompted. 2. Making personal effort, or being persuaded or motivated by good well-wishers such as friends or family members or meditation instructor or societal culture such as living in a Buddhist country are what prompt a mental event for it to arise. 3. A mental event is prompted. Best wishes, Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org #95561 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Fri Jan 30, 2009 11:00 pm Subject: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions /and Re: Suttas- the time to epsteinrob Hi Sukin! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinder" wrote: > > Hi Rob Ep (and Scott), > > On my way out I thought to take a last look in. > > Robert: > My point was that all activities are susceptible to the *bad* > I-thought, not that you *should* have the I-thought. You still > haven't said why meditation - that is, sitting and following the > breath, sensations, emotions, thoughts, mental factors, as they arise, > is to be shunned and can only be akusala, any more than sutta reading > or lectures. I can keep repeating this question, or you can take a > stab at answering it, or tell me that you can't answer it. > > > Sukin: I'll try. > What subject one finds important one studies. Someone interested in > astronomy will read on the subject as a natural consequence. It is > the same with Dhamma. One reads, discusses and thinks about Dhamma > because of what has been accumulated. > > While reading Suttas or anything else related to Dhamma, the interest > is maintained and one reads for hours without any prompt, is that > not? So too, on initially deciding to open a book this happens out of > interest, chanda. Someone with this kind of natural inclination to > meditation / Jhana, would be one whose life style is very different > from you and I. Buddhists today, jump at the idea with a view that > this is going to give them some particular result. In other words > they were not drawn naturally to find a quiet place to try and attain > Jhana by virtue of their natural inclination to develop kusala / shun > sensual contacts, but rather being moved by an idealistic and wrong > view about what meditation / Jhana is and what they may get from it. > Worse, Jhana is associated wrongly with the Path, and what this leads > to is neither Jhana nor Vipassana. > > That was just a quick response, will say more if I get a chance. > > Metta, > > Sukin > Well, I think the point is that if one has a natural inclination to do something, they will do it naturally. Again, that is no different for reading sutta for hours and hours or spending hours in meditation if one is so inclined. You haven't made a principled distinction between the two, just an imagined one. If one is naturally inclined towards sitting and following the breath, should one then not do so, as Buddha described in great detail? As for "mistaking jhana for the path," that does not make much sense to me. Buddha spoke quite a bit about jhana and seemed to think it was a good thing - not the whole path, but part of it. Why do you disagree? Best, Robert Ep. ===================== #95562 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Fri Jan 30, 2009 11:02 pm Subject: Pali Sourse for Patience Re: [dsg] thesis on Sujin Boriharnwanaket epsteinrob Thank you, Suan! That is helpful! Best, Robert Ep. =================== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "abhidhammika" wrote: > Here is the quote: > > 184. "Khantii paramam tapo titikkhaa, > nibbaanam paramam vadanti buddhaa; > > "The Buddhas declare that patience, forbearance, is the highest > practice, and that Nibbaana is the highest." > > Verse 184, Buddhavaggo, Dhammapada, Khuddakanikaayo. #95563 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Fri Jan 30, 2009 11:06 pm Subject: Re:Q. [dsg] Vipassanaa, Survey Ch 34, no. 12. epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > ----- > N: Whatever we do, it is all conditioned, mere dhammas. No judgement. > Just more understanding of citta now. > > Nina. Thank you, Nina. Your focus and emphasis on present discernment is appreciated. Best, Robert E. ========================== #95564 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Fri Jan 30, 2009 11:11 pm Subject: Pali Sourse for Patience Re: [dsg] thesis on Sujin Boriharnwanaket epsteinrob Hi Howard! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > I thank Robert and you for pointing to the high value of patience. This > is a good lesson, much appreciated. > I would only add (something that you, of course, well know) that the > worth of maintaining patience does not imply the appropriateness of acquiescing > to nonsense or worse. Proper application of patience requires other > supportive, wholesome traits and behavior. Patience is an internal matter manifesting > in action, both internal and external. But right action is appropriately > conditioned by a number of conditions only one of which is patience. And > patience, like all good traits, if misapplied, can lead to bad results. Patience that > permits or is used to justify acquiescence to nonsense or, even worse, to > evil actions, is a patience harmfully misapplied. We see (what passes for) > patience in the face of evil in the world all the time, and we need to realize > that such patience is seriously misapplied. Just to clarify, my own sense of the importance of patience is mainly in relation to the length and difficulty of the path, and the frustration of finding desire, attachment, aversion and delusion at every turn. It can get frustrating. To open up to that and face the reality of what is there is the kind of patience I am most emphasizing for myself. It took me a while to realize that no matter how I twist and turn, it is going to take a long time to wake up the mind, and that was comforting when I realized that patience could be justified and positive, and not just an excuse for not getting anywhere. To put it another way, Buddhism turned out not to be about being a rock star and having exciting experiences, but just staying present and staying open. Best, Robert E. ============================ #95565 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Fri Jan 30, 2009 11:16 pm Subject: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions /and Re: Suttas- the time to epsteinrob --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > The point Scott and others have been trying to make is that > satipatthana is mindfulness of conditioned dhammas. What you have > described here is 'thinking about concepts.' I disagree with this characterization rather completely. It is our concept of what I said, not what I said or meant. Thinking about concepts > is an infinitely more common practice than satipatthana. Anyone can > do it. Satipatthana, on the other hand, is extremely rare and > difficult. Thus, it takes practice. > > If someone were to insist on thinking about concepts because it was > easier, wouldn't he be like the man who insisted on searching for his > car keys under the streetlight even thought he knew they weren't > there? Yes, and if it was that clear it would be obvious, as it obviously is to you. But I don't agree with your perception. > > It just doesn't make sense! Once you realise it doesn't make sense > you no longer keep an open mind about it. Closing one's mind and assuming your knowledge is "safe" and "right" is never a good idea. I believe that Buddha enjoined us to get rid of attachment to our views and see more clearly all the time, not settle on current perception and believe that it is right. One does not perceive correctly until the end of the path, is that not so? So I just don't think you should be so certain that others are missing the boat because they practice differently than you. Best, Robert Ep. ========================= #95566 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Fri Jan 30, 2009 11:19 pm Subject: Re: thesis on Sujin Boriharnwanaket epsteinrob Hi Ken. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: Even people > who are drawn to Dhamma talks with K Sujin can still have ideas of a > persisting world with persisting people, persisting places and > persisting things to do. And so they very easily fall into the trap > of thinking (for example) "I should go on a meditation retreat and > create a calm pliant mind ready for the arising of insight." > > They are cosy thoughts that stem from ignorance and wrong view. > People who express them to KS - or at DSG - should be prepared for a > cold shower. :-) > > Ken H > Well, I will have to continue to object to your view that you know the truth and that others do not. I disagree with your concepts about practice, and so the cold shower will have to go both ways. One sudden awakening deserves another, I guess. Water balloons are apparently on the menu. Best, Robert Ep. ======================== #95567 From: "szmicio" Date: Sat Jan 31, 2009 1:01 am Subject: Dhammasangani szmicio Can anyone quote Dhammasangani para. 595. ? thanks Lukas #95568 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jan 31, 2009 2:39 am Subject: [dsg] Survey, Ch 36, no 4. nilovg Dear friends, Q. : In the section of “Clear Comprehension” (sampaja~n~na) in the “Satipatthåna sutta”, it is explained that when we are standing, we should know that we are standing, when walking, sitting, bending or stretching, we should know that we are doing this. We should know the characteristics of the different postures. When we know that we are walking while we are walking, is that the practice with regard to the rúpa which walks? S. : If there would be no rúpa, could we walk? Q. : If there would be no rúpa, it would be impossible to walk. S. : When you are walking there is one characteristic of rúpa appearing at a time and it can be known as it appears through one doorway. Q. : Is it rúpa which walks? S. : The rúpa which appears, no matter whether we are sitting, lying down, standing or walking, appears through the sense-doors or through the mind-door. It is anattå, it appears anyway because of the appropriate conditions; it is of no use trying to select a particular rúpa. Q. : As we have seen, in the Commentary, the “Papa~ncasúdaní”, a simile is used of the four gateways leading to the center of the city. A person who enters the city can enter through any one of these four gateways. Therefore, some people select a particular object; they develop only mindfulness of the body, not mindfulness of the other subjects of satipaììhåna. S. : When someone reads the Commentary he ought to understand what paññå should know in order to eradicate wrong view which takes realities for self. There are two kinds of realities: nåma and rúpa. So long as people do not clearly know the characteristics of nåma and rúpa, they take them for self. As regards the wording, “while walking, we should know that we are walking”, in reality it is not “I” or self who is walking, but only rúpa. When sati is aware of the characteristics of rúpas of the body which appear while walking, there is mindfulness of the body (kåyånupassanå satipatthåna). However, people cannot force sati to be aware all the time of rúpas appearing through the bodysense. Sati is anattå and it depends on conditions whether it will arise and be aware of a characteristic of nåma or rúpa. It can be aware of any characteristic of nåma or rúpa which arises and appears naturally, just as it is. The pa~n~nå which eradicates wrong view knows clearly the characteristics of nåma and rúpa as they appear through the six doors and it realizes them as non-self. ********* Nina. #95569 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jan 31, 2009 2:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhammasangani nilovg Dear Lukas, the Pali numbering is not always the same as the numbering of the English. This is a very long passage about rupa, not being hetu, nahetu, etc. It is not mental, it can be cognized through six doors, it is impermanent, subject to decay. You choose very difficult texts to analyse, I think. I cannot type it, it is very long. Nina. Op 31-jan-2009, om 10:01 heeft szmicio het volgende geschreven: > Can anyone quote Dhammasangani para. 595. ? #95570 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jan 31, 2009 3:27 am Subject: Re: Q.[dsg] Beginner abhidhamma questions nilovg Dear pt, Op 30-jan-2009, om 16:16 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > 1. Could you please give a bit more detail about what santirana citta > investigates and what votthapana citta determines? I mean, since they > are not involved in recognising the meaning of the object that is > seen, what are they actually occupied with - only color and shape of > the object and nothing else (in terms of seeing)? -------- N: They do not see, but they experience visible object through the eye-door. Sampa.ticchanacitta and santiira.nacitta are two more moments of vipaakacitta after seeing. San.tiira.nacitta 'investigates' the object, but this investigating is not the same as what we mean by this word in conventional language. We should not forget that all these moments arise and pass extremely quickly. The preceding cittas were accompanied by indifferent feeling (except in the case of body-consciousness), but san.tiira.nacitta can be accompanied by indifferent feeling or pleasant feeling. When the object is extraordinarily pleasant, it is accompanied by happy feeling. It depends on kamma what kind of vipaakacitta it produces. The texts not not elaborate much. Vipaakacittas are not active, like kusala cittas or akusala cittas, they are rather passive, just result of kamma. Votthapanacitta is a kiriyacitta, it is neither cause nor result. It 'determines' the object and then it is followed by kusala cittas or akusala cittas. It is entirely due to accumulated conditions whether it will be followed by kusala cittas or akusala cittas. Votthapanacitta is such a brief moment, there is no time to deliberate: will there be kusala cittas or akusala cittas. No self who deliberates. -------- > > pt: 2. When sense-door process is finished and the mind-door process > starts, since the rupa has fallen away at the end of the sense-door > process, the object of the mind-door process is then based on memory > of that rupa? In other words, sanna is then responsible for supplying > the object of citta, since there's no more rupa? I'm confused about > how the transition between sense and mind doors happens, without > loosing the actual object. --------- N: The rupa that has only just fallen away is then experienced through the mind-door. The cittas succeed one another very, very quickly, so one can still speak of a present object. Sometimes people speak of a photocopy or a fresh memory, but personally I am not so inclined to use these words. Or to say that it is based on sa~n~naa, but sa~n~naa arises with each citta, also with all the preceding cittas. An example: when I am angry, I realize this, but realizing this occurs already in another process of cittas, but still the anger seems to be present when I realize it. Or when awareness (sati) of anger arises, sati arises with kusala citta, not in the same process where akusala citta with anger occurred. Still, the characteristic of anger can be realized, it is a 'present object'. -------- > > pt: 3. When does the actual recognition of the object (and its > meaning) > take place during the mind-door process (after sense-door process has > fallen away)? Is it during the mano-dvaravajjana citta, or later at > one of the 7 javana cittas of the mind-door process? > 4. There are no other cittas besides mano-dvaravajjana citta and 7 > javana cittas, which operate in the mind door process? In other words, > all the thinking, concepts, ideas, etc, they all happen only through > mano-dvaravajjana citta and 7 javana cittas? ------- N: Thinking of the meaning, defining etc. take place at other mind- door processes arising later on, not in the mind-door process that immediately follows a sense-door process. There are countless mind-door processes following, and they can think of ideas, concepts, long stories. Each process consists of the mano- dvaaraavajjanacitta and the seven javanacittas, and also (but not always) two moments of retention. Seven javanacittas, thus, though it seems that we are thinking with 'neutral' cittas, this is not so: they are either kusala cittas or akusala cittas, but mostly akusala cittas. We may not notice that we mostly think stories or are daydreaming with akusala cittas. -------- Nina. #95571 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sat Jan 31, 2009 5:07 am Subject: Re: Q.[dsg] Beginner abhidhamma questions ptaus1 Dear Nina, thanks for your detailed reply. It's very helpful. A few more things I'm not clear about: 1. Does a sense-door process always have to be followed by a mind-door process? > ------- > N: Thinking of the meaning, defining etc. take place at other mind- > door processes arising later on, not in the mind-door process that > immediately follows a sense-door process. 2. So, what happens in the mind-door process that immediately follows the sense-door process? 3. During thinking, in a sequence of many consecutive mind-door processes, how is the object of citta(s) "locked in"? By mano-dvaravajjana citta? For example, when there is a certain topic, or thought, or even a mind quality that is being considered, how does that idea/concept become an object of the mind-door process? Is it because mano-dvaravajjana citta "grabs" onto it? I'm mystified how come there are no more cittas besides mano-dvaravajjana citta to "prepare" the mental object for the mind-door process in a similar way that a sense object is "prepared" by sense-door process for the mind-door process. 4. When we think, we usually use internal verbalization, mental images (pictures) and even mental sounds. How are these things classified in abhidhamma? I mean, I guess they are not perceived through the senses, even though they are similar to seeing and hearing, so I guess they would have to go through a mind-door process? Thanks pt #95572 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat Jan 31, 2009 5:20 am Subject: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions /and Re: Suttas- the time to kenhowardau Hi Robert Ep, --------- KH: > > The point Scott and others have been trying to make is that > satipatthana is mindfulness of conditioned dhammas. What you have > described here is 'thinking about concepts.' RE: > I disagree with this characterization rather completely. It is your concept of what I said, not what I said or meant. --------------- It would be good if you would find out from the Tipitaka exactly what satipatthana meant and exactly what 'thinking about concepts' meant. I am sure you will find you have described doing the latter. -------------------------- KH: > > Thinking about concepts > is an infinitely more common practice than satipatthana. Anyone can > do it. Satipatthana, on the other hand, is extremely rare and > difficult. RE: > Thus, it takes practice. -------------------------- Yes, but it takes the practice of satipatthana, doesn't it? It doesn't take the practice of 'thinking about concepts.' ------------------------------ KH: > > > If someone were to insist on thinking about concepts because it was > easier, wouldn't he be like the man who insisted on searching for his > car keys under the streetlight even though he knew they weren't > there? RE: > Yes, and if it was that clear it would be obvious, as it obviously is to you. But I don't agree with your perception. ------------------------------ When you have ascertained the Tipitaka's explanations of satipatthana and of 'thinking about concepts' I think you will agree with me. ---------------------------------------- KH: > > > It just doesn't make sense! Once you realise it doesn't make sense > you no longer keep an open mind about it. RE: > Closing one's mind and assuming your knowledge is "safe" and "right" is never a good idea. ---------------------------------------- But you had said just two sentences earlier: "Yes, and if it was that clear it would be obvious." I believe you were right the first time: sometimes it is good to have a closed mind. ------------------------------- <. . .> RE: > I believe that Buddha enjoined us to get rid of attachment to our views and see more clearly all the time, not settle on current perception and believe that it is right. One does not perceive correctly until the end of the path, is that not so? So I just don't think you should be so certain that others are missing the boat because they practice differently than you. --------------------------------- This whole discussion began when you asked how I could be so certain that formal meditation was not the way. My answer is that I have read the Buddha's descriptions of satipatthana and his descriptions of thinking about concepts. (And I have had those descriptions explained to me.) Consequently I can give no more credence to formal meditation than I can to looking under a streetlight [for something that I know is further down the road in the dark]. Ken H #95573 From: "dkotschessa" Date: Sat Jan 31, 2009 6:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vipassanaa, Survey Ch 34, no. 12. dkotschessa --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Epstein" wrote: > Well that is good, as it acknowledges that one may just as likely > misunderstand her instructions as they may misunderstand or distort > the Buddha's instructions on anapanasati. The danger is always > there, and we must be alert. But that says nothing at all against > "formal meditation" as opposed to "formal dhamma talks" or "formal > sutta or com reading." One had better be mindful to spot the > intention in doing any of those things, rather than distinguishing one > as good and the other activity as bad. Just want to throw in my support for Rob's perspective (I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing for Rob :) ) here. These threads have been frustrating to read becuase Robert has asked a very simple question over and over and over, and it has gone unanswered. Robert is still asking: "Why is meditation different than listening to dhamma talks?" From memory I think he's posed the question in some form or another about 5 times and nobody has even addressed the question. Do we conlude that no-one has an answer? -DaveK #95574 From: "szmicio" Date: Sat Jan 31, 2009 6:22 am Subject: Re: Dhammasangani szmicio --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Lukas, > the Pali numbering is not always the same as the numbering of the > English. This is a very long passage about rupa, not being hetu, > nahetu, etc. It is not mental, it can be cognized through six doors, > it is impermanent, subject to decay. Oh, I see. Actually I've got a problem with my Vibhanga. There is reference to Dhammasangani. I'll quote it: " Therein what is subtle material quality? The controlling faculty of feminity, :P the nutrient factor of food. This is called subtle material quality." Can you quote those parts the text refers to? Can you comment gross material quality and subtle material quality? (Rupakhandha, Khandhavibhanga, Vibhangapali - Analysis according to the discurses) Generally I find The Book of Analisys very helpful. All those diffrent classifications help me to understand. Best wishes Lukas #95575 From: "szmicio" Date: Sat Jan 31, 2009 6:26 am Subject: Re: Dhammasangani szmicio Dear Nina > Oh, I see. Actually I've got a problem with my Vibhanga. There is > reference to Dhammasangani. I'll quote it: > " Therein what is subtle material quality? The controlling faculty of > feminity, :P the nutrient factor of food. This is called subtle > material quality." > > Can you quote those parts the text refers to? I forgot about the reference. " :P see Dhs. para 595 " #95576 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jan 31, 2009 1:51 am Subject: Re: Pali Sourse for Patience Re: [dsg] thesis on Sujin Boriharnwanaket upasaka_howard Hi, Robert - In a message dated 1/31/2009 2:11:25 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, epsteinrob@... writes: To put it another way, Buddhism turned out not to be about being a rock star and having exciting experiences, but just staying present and staying open. ========================== Very well put, IMO! :-) With metta, Howard (From the Avarana Sutta) #95577 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jan 31, 2009 6:59 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Vipassanaa, Survey Ch 34, no. 12. nilovg Dear Dave and Robert, Op 31-jan-2009, om 15:20 heeft dkotschessa het volgende geschreven: > Robert is still asking: "Why is meditation different than listening > to dhamma talks?" From memory I think he's posed the question in > some form or another about 5 times and nobody has even addressed the > question. Do we conlude that no-one has an answer? -------- N: I answered in my own way: it has to be the citta at the present moment: kusala or akusala? So, it is not so helpful to think of situations, of this person or that person who say different things, these are all 'stories' we can think of, debate about, disagree about. Yes, they are tiring to read, I agree. I would like to make things more simple: all we think of, the whole world, all the people, let us reduce these things to citta, cetasika and rupa. If we keep this in mind we can answer Rob's questions. Meditation: what is it? Bhavanaa, mental development, it has to be kusala with pa~n~naa, of what level it may be, samatha or vipassanaa or study of the teachings with understanding. It is in the moment, it can change. Listening to Dhamma: kusala cittas with understanding. It is in the moment, it can change. Kusala citta with understanding is good. But akusala citta with lobha can always come in, and also this can be understood as only a dhamma. Thus, not the sitting is important, but the cittas arising at those moments. Nina. #95578 From: "connie" Date: Sat Jan 31, 2009 7:20 am Subject: cornerstone nichiconn Dear friends, Karunadasa continues: There is this simile on this matter. Just as a teacher of the three Vedas who is capable of explaining their meaning in different dialects might teach his pupils, adopting the particular dialect which each pupil understands, even so the Buddha preaches the doctrine adopting, according to the suitability of the occasion, either the sammuti- or the paramattha-katha. It is by taking into consideration the ability of each individual to understand the Four Noble Truths that the Buddha presents his teaching either by way of sammuti or by way of paramattha or by way of both. Whatever the method adopted the purpose is the same, to show the way to Immortality through the analysis of mental and physical phenomena.145 As shown from the above quotation, the penetration of the truth is possible by either teaching, the conventional or the ultimate, or by the combination of both. One method is not singled out as superior or inferior to the other. It is like using the dialect that a person readily understands, and there is no implication that one dialect is either superior or inferior to another. What is more, as the commentary to the Anguttara Nikaya states specifically, whether the Buddhas preach the doctrine according to sammuti or paramattha, they teach only what is true, only what accords with actuality, without involving themselves in what is not true (amusa'va).146 The statement: "The person exists" (= sammuti-sacca) is not erroneous, provided one does not imagine by the person a substance enduring in time. Convention requires the use of such terms, but as long as one does not imagine substantial entities corresponding to them, such statements are valid.147 On the other hand, as the commentators observe, if for the sake of conforming to the ultimate truth one would say, "The five aggregates eat" (khandha bhunjanti), "The five aggregates walk" (khandha gacchanti), instead of saying: "A person eats," "A person walks," such a situation would result in what is called voharabheda, i.e. a breach of convention resulting in a breakdown in meaningful communication.148 notes: 145. A I 54-55; DA I 251-52; SA II 77. 146. DA I 251. 147. See Jayatilleke, p.365. 148. SA I 51. ...to be continued, connie #95579 From: "Scott" Date: Sat Jan 31, 2009 7:28 am Subject: Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner scottduncan2 Dear All, Continuing: The Path of Purification. "38. But if he is still unable to stop it this way, then he should try resolution into elements. How? 'Now you who have gone forth into homelessness, when you are angry with him, what is it you are angry with? Is it head hairs you are angry with? Or body hairs? Or nails? ... Or is it urine you are angry with? Or, alternatively, is it the earth element in the head hairs, etc. you are angry with? Or the water element? Or the fire element? Or is it the air element you are angry with? Or among the five aggregates or the twelve bases or the eighteen elements with respect to which this venerable one is called by such and such a name, which then, is it the materiality aggregate you are angry with? Or the feeling aggregate, the perception aggregate, the formations aggregate, the consciousness aggregate you are angry with? Or is it the eye base you are angry with? or the visible-object base you are angry with? ... Or the mind base you are angry with? Or the mental-object base you are angry with? Or is it the eye-element you are angry with? Or the visible-object element?? Or the eye-consciousness element? ... Or the mind element? Or the mental-object element? Or the mind-consciousness element you are angry with?' For when he tries the resolution into elements, his anger finds no foothold, like a mustard seed on the point of an awl or a painting on air." Path of Purity. "If he is still unable to quench his heart, he should make an analysis of elements. How? 'My good recluse! In getting angry with this man, with what art thou angry? Art thou angry with the hairs on the head? or with the hairs of the body?, nails ... urine? Or art thou angry with this earthy element, the watery element, the heat element, the wind element in the hairs, and so on? Or, with the aggregate of matter or the aggregate of feeling, of perception, of activities, of consciousness. Or art thou angry with the sense-organ of sight, of visible objects ... of mind, of things? Or art thou angry with the element of seeing, of visible objects, of visual cognition ... with the element of mind, of things, of mind-cognition? When he analyses the elements thus, there is no place for anger as there is none for a mustard seed on the point of an awl, or for a painted picture in the sky." Evampi nibbaapetu.m asakkontena pana dhaatuvinibbhogo kaatabbo. Katha.m? 'Ambho pabbajita, tva.m etassa kujjhamaano kassa kujjhasi? Ki.m kesaana.m kujjhasi, udaahu lomaana.m, nakhaana.m ... muttassa kujjhasi? Atha vaa pana kesaadiisu pathaviidhaatuyaa kujjhasi, aapodhaatuyaa, tejodhaatuyaa, vaayodhaatuyaa kujjhasi? Ye vaa pa~ncakkhandhe dvaadasaayatanaani a.t.thaarasa dhaatuyo upaadaaya ayamaayasmaa itthannaamoti vuccati, tesu ki.m ruupakkhandhassa kujjhasi, udaahu vedanaa sa~n~naa sa"nkhaaravi~n~naa.nakkhandhassa kujjhasi? Ki.m vaa cakkhaayatanassa kujjhasi, ki.m ruupaayatanassa kujjhasi ... ki.m manaayatanassa kujjhasi, ki.m dhammaayatanassa kujjhasi? Ki.m vaa cakkhudhaatuyaa kujjhasi, ki.m ruupadhaatuyaa, ki.m cakkhuvi~n~naa.nadhaatuyaa ... ki.m manodhaatuyaa, ki.m dhammadhaatuyaa, ki.m manovi~n~naa.nadhaatuyaa 'ti? Eva~nhi dhaatuvinibbhoga.m karoto aaragge saasapassa viya aakaase cittakammassa viya ca kodhassa pati.t.thaana.t.thaana.m na hoti. Sincerely, Scott. #95580 From: "Scott" Date: Sat Jan 31, 2009 8:27 am Subject: Re: What the Buddha said... to whom? scottduncan2 Dear Suan, Regarding: "Suan answers: 1. A mental event can arise without being prompted. 2. Making personal effort, or being persuaded or motivated by good well-wishers such as friends or family members or meditation instructor or societal culture such as living in a Buddhist country are what prompt a mental event for it to arise. 3. A mental event is prompted." Scott: Answers '1' and '3' are satisfactory. For answer '2', what is, for example, 'making personal effort'? 'Effort' is viriya. Viriya can be prompted or unprompted. Viriya *is* the effort or energy in the moment and/or from moment to moment. And in relation to the other mental factors in the moment and/or from moment to moment, for example, consider the many, many impersonal dhammas which arise and fall away functioning in unison and conditioning just one single step in a given direction conditioned by effort. But 'personal' is pa~n~natti, is it not? The term 'personal effort' is vijjamaanena avijjamaana pa~n~natti - a concept of the non-existent based on the existent. Viriya is real, but 'personal' - that is, 'a person's effort' - is not. What is the role of pa~n~naa in this, in your opinion (because the distinction between Right Effort and Wrong Effort is known by pa~n~naa)? Sincerely, Scott. #95581 From: "colette" Date: Sat Jan 31, 2009 11:11 am Subject: Re: Deluded fundamentalists: thesis on Sujin Boriharnwanaket ksheri3 Hi "rjkjpl", I TAKE ISSUE HERE! Fundamentalism is a foundational practice. Fundamentalism can only be considered as derogatory under the conditions that the foundation and/or foundational wisdom is WRONG. Through the decades of esoteric practices I've accumulated I can without question say that there are things such as "gate keepers". <....> Theravadans are, THEREFORE, one of the most certain people to make sure that an aspirant and/or practitioner has the fundamentals internallized and memorized (for lack of better terms) before the practitioner/aspirant proceeds onward into the land of THEORY and HIGHER WISDOMS. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: <...> > Dear Robert > Ok but on many buddhist forums calling another member > a 'fundamentalist" is seen as trolling. <....> #95582 From: "dkotschessa" Date: Sat Jan 31, 2009 3:01 pm Subject: Re: Deluded fundamentalists: thesis on Sujin Boriharnwanaket dkotschessa --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "colette" wrote: > > Hi "rjkjpl", > > I TAKE ISSUE HERE! > > Fundamentalism is a foundational practice. Fundamentalism can only be > considered as derogatory under the conditions that the foundation > and/or foundational wisdom is WRONG. > > Through the decades of esoteric practices I've accumulated I can > without question say that there are things such as "gate keepers". > <....> Theravadans are, THEREFORE, one of > the most certain people to make sure that an aspirant and/or > practitioner has the fundamentals internallized and memorized (for > lack of better terms) before the practitioner/aspirant proceeds > onward into the land of THEORY and HIGHER WISDOMS. > > toodles, > colette I agree with this in essense. The word fundamentalism has become a bit of a swear word, but this refers to belief systems which, when taken to their logical conclusion, cause harm to self and others. Since Buddhism is a middle way practice it cannot be extreme and still be Buddhism. A Buddhist extremist would be someone who had impeccable morality, lots of wisdom and patience and who above all else was extremly moderate! However, becuase of the tone the word has taken on in our society, it is generally disrespectful in it's usage. It implies a sense of close mindedness or unwillingless to discuss interpretations other than one's own. -DaveK #95583 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Sat Jan 31, 2009 3:13 pm Subject: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions /and Re: Suttas- the time to epsteinrob Hi Ken. As surprised as I am that you are sticking with this discussion so far, I am appreciative that you are taking the trouble. However, you seem to be very sure that you are right, and I think this certainty is misplaced. See below. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi Robert Ep, > > --------- > KH: > > The point Scott and others have been trying to make is that > > satipatthana is mindfulness of conditioned dhammas. What you have > > described here is 'thinking about concepts.' > > RE: > I disagree with this characterization rather completely. It is > your concept of what I said, not what I said or meant. > --------------- > > It would be good if you would find out from the Tipitaka exactly > what satipatthana meant and exactly what 'thinking about concepts' > meant. I am sure you will find you have described doing the latter. > > -------------------------- > KH: > > Thinking about concepts > > is an infinitely more common practice than satipatthana. Anyone can > > do it. Satipatthana, on the other hand, is extremely rare and > > difficult. > > > RE: > Thus, it takes practice. > -------------------------- > > Yes, but it takes the practice of satipatthana, doesn't it? It > doesn't take the practice of 'thinking about concepts.' Well that is now your characterization. Are you aware that at this moment [as you write] that your distinction between satipatthan and thinking about concepts is itself a concept? Do you discern the namas associated with making such a distinction in the moments in which they arise, or are you "thinking about concepts" about the concept of "thinking about concepts?" The reason I mention this is not just to be silly, but to focus on the reality of what we are actually doing when we say such things. There is inevitably concept in all that you are saying, and in all that I am saying. Now, when I refer to sitting and discerning what arises in the moment, which is very close to a description of something you would agree with, you never-the-less describe it as "thinking about concepts," rather than practicing satipatthana, because you are pre-disposed to think so. What other reason could there be? You do not refer to my description and show why it is "thinking about concepts." I do not see any such thing in what I have spoken about, and you do not say anything to demonstrate that your view is correct; you merely assert it. As for going to the Tipitaka to "find" that this what I am doing, if you believe it be so, provide a quote, and apply it to what I have said. In the meantime, I will continue to assert that sitting and leaving the attention open to discern whatever is arising in the moment, and allowing this to take place in accord with the arising of the moment, is not "thinking about concepts" at all - it is the opposite. It is practicing sati, being aware of what arises in the moment, whatever it is. I don't see what your basis is for refuting or disputing this, and you do not clarify it at all. Feel free to do so. > > ------------------------------ > KH: > > > > If someone were to insist on thinking about concepts because it was > > easier, wouldn't he be like the man who insisted on searching for > his > > car keys under the streetlight even though he knew they weren't > > there? > > RE: > Yes, and if it was that clear it would be obvious, as it > obviously is to you. But I don't agree with your perception. > ------------------------------ > > When you have ascertained the Tipitaka's explanations of satipatthana > and of 'thinking about concepts' I think you will agree with me. Well you may feel free to show me the relevant passages. I am not going to read the entire tipitaka with your point of view in mind to try to correct my view, which I have no problem with. If you want to assert this, then please make your case. If we disagreed on a point of law, I would not tell you to go read all your law books, and that I am sure you will then agree with me. Please make your own case and do so convincingly if you feel you are correct. Don't presume that the Tipitaka as a whole is on your side. So far I am getting a lot of general assertions without a shred of evidence. > ---------------------------------------- > KH: > > > > It just doesn't make sense! Once you realise it doesn't make sense > > you no longer keep an open mind about it. > > RE: > Closing one's mind and assuming your knowledge is "safe" > and "right" is never a good idea. > ---------------------------------------- > > But you had said just two sentences earlier: "Yes, and if it was that > clear it would be obvious." And I said "but I don't agree..." that it is so. "If" it was that clear as *you* are saying it is, you might be justified in being so certain. I am saying it is *not* as clear and obvious as it seems to be to you. I think you know that is what I meant. > I believe you were right the first time: sometimes it is good to have > a closed mind. I did not say that. I said it was not good to have a closed mind, so I don't know where you're getting your material. You seem to be putting my words through an "opposite" machine or something. > > ------------------------------- > <. . .> > RE: > I believe that Buddha enjoined us to get rid of > attachment to our views and see more clearly all the time, not settle > on current perception and believe that it is right. One does not > perceive correctly until the end of the path, is that not so? So I > just don't think you should be so certain that others are missing the > boat because they practice differently than you. > --------------------------------- > > This whole discussion began when you asked how I could be so certain > that formal meditation was not the way. My answer is that I have read > the Buddha's descriptions of satipatthana and his descriptions of > thinking about concepts. (And I have had those descriptions explained > to me.) Consequently I can give no more credence to formal meditation > than I can to looking under a streetlight [for something that I know > is further down the road in the dark]. Well your explanations and understandings may be incorrect. If you are not open to this possibility then you may be cut off from further clarification. For myself, I am open to your view, but not unless I see a reasonable argument and not just your assertion that "you know better," which seems to be the extent that you are able to go. Best, Robert E. ====================== #95584 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Sat Jan 31, 2009 3:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vipassanaa, Survey Ch 34, no. 12. epsteinrob Hi Dave. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "dkotschessa" wrote: > Robert is still asking: "Why is meditation different than listening > to dhamma talks?" From memory I think he's posed the question in > some form or another about 5 times and nobody has even addressed the > question. Do we conlude that no-one has an answer? > > -DaveK Thanks for adding your clarification to this point. I appreciate it. Best, Robert E. ==================================== #95585 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Sat Jan 31, 2009 3:19 pm Subject: Pali Sourse for Patience Re: [dsg] thesis on Sujin Boriharnwanaket epsteinrob Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Robert - > > In a message dated 1/31/2009 2:11:25 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > epsteinrob@... writes: > > To put it another way, Buddhism turned out not to be about being a > rock star and having exciting experiences, but just staying present > and staying open. > ========================== > Very well put, IMO! :-) > > With metta, > Howard Thank you Howard. It was one of those discoveries that was pretty big for me, because I was all into the excitement of the spiritual voyage, maybe because I started out in the early '70s [as a teenager and then college student] and altered states of consciousness were quite popular. It was a strangely welcomed anti-climax. :-) Best, Robert E. ================================ #95586 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Sat Jan 31, 2009 6:52 pm Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Vipassanaa, Survey Ch 34, no. 12. epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Dave and Robert, > Op 31-jan-2009, om 15:20 heeft dkotschessa het volgende geschreven: > > > Robert is still asking: "Why is meditation different than listening > > to dhamma talks?" From memory I think he's posed the question in > > some form or another about 5 times and nobody has even addressed the > > question. Do we conlude that no-one has an answer? > -------- > N: I answered in my own way: it has to be the citta at the present > moment: kusala or akusala? So, it is not so helpful to think of > situations, of this person or that person who say different things, > these are all 'stories' we can think of, debate about, disagree > about. Yes, they are tiring to read, I agree. I would like to make > things more simple: all we think of, the whole world, all the people, > let us reduce these things to citta, cetasika and rupa. > If we keep this in mind we can answer Rob's questions. > Meditation: what is it? Bhavanaa, mental development, it has to be > kusala with pa~n~naa, of what level it may be, samatha or vipassanaa > or study of the teachings with understanding. It is in the moment, it > can change. > Listening to Dhamma: kusala cittas with understanding. It is in the > moment, it can change. > Kusala citta with understanding is good. But akusala citta with lobha > can always come in, and also this can be understood as only a dhamma. > Thus, not the sitting is important, but the cittas arising at those > moments. > > Nina. I think your basic point is a good one, that the discernment of namas and rupas is the bottom line, and that cittas can be kusala or akusala. I don't think there's much disagreement about that - so you return us back to the basics and that is good. But the question that remains is not whether the sitting is the important thing, but whether it is an okay platform for discernment, just as reading and talking may be. After all, we do sit down to read or attend a lecture intentionally, as we sit in meditation intentionally. What is important, you seem to be saying, is what comes after that. So it seems like all activities can have moments of attention, or moments of distraction or delusion. What seems good to me about meditation is that once you are sitting you have a chance to pay attention to the arising moments without constant shifting distractions. If you get an itch you can look at the namas and rupas that attend that itch. If we take your view that it is really a matter of kusala and akusala cittas, and not about the activity, that is fine with me. Best, Robert E. ====================== #95587 From: "reverendaggacitto" Date: Sat Jan 31, 2009 9:59 pm Subject: Hi Everybody! reverendagga... Hi Everybody! This is bhikkhu aggacitto Checking in saying hello! i am going to be going to India in a few days (Southern) Does any body have any recommendations for a place where i can study and work on my jhanna access? Thank you all! bhikkhu/reverend aggacitto #95588 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Sat Jan 31, 2009 11:17 pm Subject: Re: What the Buddha said... to whom? abhidhammika Dear Scott, Howard, Robert Ep, Herman, colette, Robert K, Nina, Alex, Alberto and all How are you? Scott asked: "what is, for example, 'making personal effort'?" Suan answers: Making personal effort refers to the phenomenon of self-motivation or internal motivation in contrast to external motivation. This shows that a sasankhaarika mental event can arise either through internal motivation or external motivation or through both types of motivation. Whenever a transmitter of the Buddha's pure Theravada teachings uses the terms like person or self, those terms are used only for the linguistic convenience. So, whenever I, as a teacher of pure Theravada, use the terms like person or self, I use them to facilitate the linguistic smooth flow. Scott asked: "What is the role of pa~n~naa in this, in your opinion (because the distinction between Right Effort and Wrong Effort is known by pa~n~naa)?" Suan answers: Only because a person is wise enough to know the efficacy of formal Theravada Buddhist meditation methods such as those the Buddha taught in Mahaa Satipa.t.thaana Suttam, he or she would use either internal motivation or external motivation or both types of motivation to choose and undertake a suitable form of meditation method or a group of methods. Once this formal practice becomes his or her second nature, he or she can undertake formal Theravada meditation at will (asankhaarikam). Thus, the role of paññaa is already there in making personal effort or being motivated by external factors when generating a superior meritorious deed such as undertaking formal Theravada meditation. Best wishes, Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org #95589 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Feb 1, 2009 1:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hi Everybody! nilovg Venerable Bhikkhu Aggacito, Op 1-feb-2009, om 6:59 heeft reverendaggacitto het volgende geschreven: > This is bhikkhu aggacitto Checking in saying hello! > i am going to be going to India in a few days (Southern) > Does any body have any recommendations for a place where i can study > > and work on my jhanna access? ------ N: It is kind of you to greet us. I wish you a very fruitful journey in India. I went there many times, to the holy places where we had Dhamma discussions. For me personally Dhamma discussions help since it is a condition to develop more understanding of the present moment. Actually, for all bhaavana, be it samatha or vipassanaa, I think that it is understanding that matters most and not so much the place where one is. With respectful greetings, Nina. #95590 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Feb 1, 2009 3:11 am Subject: [dsg] Sangiiti Sutta Threes (46-48) and commentary, part 3. nilovg Dear friends, sutta (48): Olds: [ 3.48 ] Three Developments[ 3.48 ]: Development of Body, Development of Mind, Development of Wisdom Tisso bhaavanaa - kaayabhaavanaa, cittabhaavanaa, pa~n~naabhaavanaa. ---------- N: The Co states that these are the developments of the arahat who has eradicated the aasavas, intoxicants. As to the development of the body, this is the body of the five doors, pa~ncadvaarika kaayo. As to the develoment of mind, citta bhaavanaa, these are the eight jhaana attainments. As to development of wisdom, pa~n~naa bhaavanaa, this is the pa~n~naa accompanying the fruition-consciousness, phalacitta, of the arahat. The arahat has complete development of the five doorways, they are well developed (subhaavito). The subco : kaayo is the aggregation of phassa and the other dhammas. By reaching the topmost Path the arahat abandoned all defilements. N: The arahat has developed the pa~n~naa that penetrates the characteristics of all objects contacted by phassa. subco: As to the development of the mind, the eight attainments are not weak, as in the case of others. The subco adds: because all defilements are completely abandoned. The co: As to the development of wisdom, this has been fully developed. N: When pa~n~naa accompanying the phalacitta of the arahat arises, there is nothing further to be done. The arahat sees, hears, experiences all objects appearing through the senses, and these are pleasant or unpleasant objects, but the arahat has perfect equanimity, no matter what object has been contacted. Arahtship is a long way to go, but the person who became an arahat had to begin once, being aware of whatever object impinged on one of the senses. For us worldlings many kinds of defilements arise on account of the objects that are experienced. Even when we are not harming others, when we are distracted, daydreaming, many defilements pass unnoticed. Pa~n~naa can come to realize our defilements and this is the way to see them as mere dhammas, conditioned dhammas. If defilements are not seen as they are they cannot be eradicated. ********* Co: Bhaavanaasu khii.naasavassa pa~ncadvaarikakaayo kaayabhaavanaa naama. A.t.tha samaapattiyo cittabhaavanaa naama. Arahattaphalapa~n~naa pa~n~naabhaavanaa naama... ******* Nina. #95591 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Feb 1, 2009 3:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhammasangani nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 31-jan-2009, om 15:26 heeft szmicio het volgende geschreven: > Actually I've got a problem with my Vibhanga. There is > > reference to Dhammasangani. I'll quote it: > > " Therein what is subtle material quality? The controlling faculty > of > > feminity, :P the nutrient factor of food. This is called subtle > > material quality." > > > > Can you quote those parts the text refers to? -------- N: As I understand, you are now studying the five khandhas being gross or subtle, and you were considering rupakkhandha as gross or subtle. In the text the complete list is omitted. To make it easier for me (short of time) I shall quote from my ruupas. < Rúpas can be classified as gross and subtle. As we have seen (in Chapter 4), twelve kinds of rúpa are gross: visible object, sound, odour, flavour and three of the four Great Elements which are tangible object (excluding cohesion), as well as the five sense- organs. They are gross because of impinging: visible object impinges on the eyesense, sound impinges on the earsense, and each of the other sense objects impinges on the appropriate sense-base. The other sixteen kinds of rúpa are subtle. What is subtle is called “far” because it is difficult to penetrate, whereas what is gross is called “near”, because it is easy to penetrate (Vis. XIV, 73).> Thus, in our dail life seven ruupas impinge all the time on the relevant sensedoors and they can gradually be known as they are. Three of them are tangible object: solidity appearing as hardness or softness, heat appearing as heat or cold, and motion appearing as motion or pressure (resilience, oscillation). The subtle ruupas are: cohesion femininity masculinity heart-base life faculty nutrition space bodily intimation speech intimation lightness plasticity wieldiness origination continuity decay impermanence These are hard to penetrate. *** Nina. #95592 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Feb 1, 2009 3:35 am Subject: external rupa. nilovg Dear Lukas, I meant to tell you that I saw in the text that also food is an external rupa. Nina. #95593 From: "szmicio" Date: Sun Feb 1, 2009 3:43 am Subject: Re: external rupa. szmicio Dear Nina What is a pali term for the food you refers to? What is external vedana, sankhara and vi~n~nyana? > Dear Lukas, > I meant to tell you that I saw in the text that also food is an > external rupa. Bye Lukas #95594 From: "Scott" Date: Sun Feb 1, 2009 5:55 am Subject: Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner scottduncan2 Dear All, Continuing: The Path of Purification. "39.But if he cannot effect the resolution into elements, he should try the giving of a gift. It can either be given by himself to the other or accepted by himself from the other. But if the other's livelihood is not purified and his requisites are not proper to be used, it should be given by oneself. And in the one who does this the annoyance with the person entirely subsides. And in the other even anger that has been dogging him from a past birth subsides at the moment, as happened to the senior elder who received a bowl given to him at the Cittalapabbata Monastery by an almsfood-eater elder who had been three times made to move from his lodging by him, and who presented it with these words: 'Venerable sir, this bowl worth eight ducats was given me by my mother who is a lay devotee, and it is rightly obtained; let the good lay devotee acquire merit'. So efficacious is this act of giving. And this is said: 'A gift for taming the untamed A gift for every kind of good Through giving gifts they do unbend And condescend to kindly speech'." Path of Purity. "If he is unable to analyze the elements, he should perform the sharing of gifts: he should give to another what belongs to himself, receive what belongs to another. And if another is impure in livelihood and has property he has no right to have, he should give from his own. If he does so, his hatred of that person must certainly subside. And the anger of the other man which has been pursuing him since past existences subsides that very moment. Pi.n.dapaatika the Elder has been ousted from his bed three times at Cittalapabbata Monastery. 'Sir, this bowl worth eight pieces of money was given by my mother, the lay-sister. It is a righteous gift. Please make merit for a great lay-sister.' - so saying, he gave the bowl to the senior monk. So powerful is this alms-giving. And this has been said: - 'Alms-giving tames untamed men, Effects it purpose everywhere. By gifts and speaking kindly words, Men raise their heads, while others bow.'" Dhaatuvinibbhoga.m pana kaatu.m asakkontena daanasa.mvibhaago kaatabbo. Attano santaka.m parassa daatabba.m, parassa santaka.m attanaa gahetabba.m. Sace pana paro bhinnaajiivo hoti aparibhogaarahaparikkhaaro, attano santakameva daatabba.m. Tasseva.m karoto ekanteneva tasmi.m puggale aaghaato vuupasammati. Itarassa ca atiitajaatito pa.t.thaaya anubandhopi kodho ta"nkha.na~n~neva vuupasammati, cittalapabbatavihaare tikkhattu.m vu.t.thaapitasenaasanena pi.n.dapaatikattherena 'aya.m , bhante, a.t.thakahaapa"nagghanako patto mama maataraa upaasikaaya dinno dhammiyalaabho, mahaaupaasikaaya pu~n~nalaabha.m karothaa 'ti vatvaa dinna.m patta.m laddhamahaatherassa viya. Eva.m mahaanubhaavameta.m daana.m naama. Vuttampi ceta.m - 'Adantadamana.m daana.m, daana.m sabbatthasaadhaka.m; Daanena piyavaacaaya, unnamanti namanti caa 'ti. Sincerely, Scott. #95595 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Feb 1, 2009 6:36 am Subject: Re: Q.[dsg] Beginner abhidhamma questions nilovg Dear pt, Op 31-jan-2009, om 14:07 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > 1. Does a sense-door process always have to be followed by a mind-door > process? ------ N: Yes, the cittas in the following mind-door process experience the same ruupa as that experienced in the preceding sense-door process. --------- > > > ------- > > N: Thinking of the meaning, defining etc. take place at other mind- > > door processes arising later on, not in the mind-door process that > > immediately follows a sense-door process. > > 2. So, what happens in the mind-door process that immediately follows > the sense-door process? ------- N: See above. Also the javanacittas are of the same type as those of the preceding sense-door process. --------- > > 3. During thinking, in a sequence of many consecutive mind-door > processes, how is the object of citta(s) "locked in"? By > mano-dvaravajjana citta? For example, when there is a certain topic, > or thought, or even a mind quality that is being considered, how does > that idea/concept become an object of the mind-door process? Is it > because mano-dvaravajjana citta "grabs" onto it? I'm mystified how > come there are no more cittas besides mano-dvaravajjana citta to > "prepare" the mental object for the mind-door process in a similar way > that a sense object is "prepared" by sense-door process for the > mind-door process. ---------- N: Often thinking thinks on account of what was experienced earlier through the senses. For example, one may smell an odour and this evokes reminiscences of an odour we experienced in the past, we never know what will happen. One draws on endlessly, long stories. This also happens when we are dreaming. That is because of our defilements, the arahat does not dream, he has no defilements. Because of sa~n~naa realities and concepts are remembered. Sa~n~naa can be wrong sa~n~naa of permanence, happiness, sukha, self, attaa, beautiful, subha. We are likely to think of persons and things as if they last or exist (niccaa sa~n~naa and attaa sa~n~naa). Through insight there can be the realisation of aniccaa sa~n~naa and anattaa sa~n~naa. We think about what we heard or saw, what people told us. It is because of kamma that we meet certain people, good or bad, and these influence our thinking. Or we listen to Dhamma recordings or people ask us questions on Dhamma and we have to consider what to answer. We cannot trace why we think of this or of that topic. It is not necessary to do this, it is best to see thinking as a conditioned naama. --------- > pt: 4. When we think, we usually use internal verbalization, mental > images > (pictures) and even mental sounds. How are these things classified in > abhidhamma? I mean, I guess they are not perceived through the senses, > even though they are similar to seeing and hearing, so I guess they > would have to go through a mind-door process? --------- N:These are all ideas or concepts, pa~n~natti, classified as pa~n~natti. But the thinking itself is naama. Concepts are experienced in mind-door processes. ****** Nina. #95596 From: "connie" Date: Sun Feb 1, 2009 6:55 am Subject: cornerstone nichiconn Dear Friends, Karunadasa continues: Hence in presenting the teaching the Buddha does not exceed linguistic conventions (na hi Bhagava samannat atidhavati),149 but uses such terms as "person" without being led astray by their superficial implications (aparamasat voharati).150 Because the Buddha is able to employ such linguistic designations as "person" and "individual" without assuming corresponding substantial entities, he is called "skilled in expression" (vohara-kusala).151 The use of such terms does not in any way involve falsehood.152 Skilfulness in the use of words is the ability to conform to conventions (sammuti), usages (vohara), designations (pannatti), and turns of speech (nirutti) in common use in the world without being led astray by them.153 Hence in understanding the teaching of the Buddha one is advised not to adhere dogmatically to the mere superficial meanings of words.154 The foregoing observations should show that according to the Theravada version of double truth, one kind of truth is not held to be superior to the other. Another interesting conclusion to which the foregoing observations lead is that as far as the Theravada is concerned, the distinction between sammuti-sacca and paramattha-sacca does not refer to two kinds of truth as such but to two ways of presenting the truth. Although they are formally introduced as two kinds of truth, they are explained as two modes of expressing what is true. They do not represent two degrees of truth of which one is superior or inferior to the other. This explains why the two terms, katha (speech) and desana (discourse), are often used with reference to the two kinds of truth.155 In this respect the distinction between sammuti and paramattha corresponds to the distinction made in the earlier scriptures between nitattha and neyyattha. For, as we saw earlier, no preferential value-judgement is made between nitattha and neyyattha. All that is emphasized is that the two kinds of statement should not be confused. The great advantage in presenting sammuti and paramattha in this way is that it does not raise the problem of reconciling the concept of a plurality of truths with the well-known statement of the Suttanipata: "Truth is indeed one, there is no second" (ekat hi saccat na dutiyam atthi).156 notes: 149. KvuA 103. 150. Cf. KvuA 103 151. SA I 51. 152. Cf. MA 125 153. DA I 251. 154. (Abhvt 88). 155. A I 54; Abhvk 324. 156. Suttanipata v.884. This is the final extract: The Dhamma Theory: Philosophical Cornerstone of the ABHIDHAMMA Y. Karunadasa; The Wheel Publication No. 412/413 Internet edition 22 June 1997 - world.std.com/~metta; 1996 - BPS zeh-verlag.de/download/dhammatheory.pdf abhidhamma.org/dhamma_theory_philosophical_corn.htm peace, connie #95597 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Feb 1, 2009 7:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: external rupa. nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 1-feb-2009, om 12:43 heeft szmicio het volgende geschreven: > What is a pali term for the food you refers to? ------- N: Dhsg 674: What is that [material] form which is external (to the self- baahira.m)? The sphere of the five kinds of sense-objects...and bodily nutriment- this is that [material] form which is external (to the self- baahira.m). Pali: Kataman ta.m ruupa.m baahira.m? Rupaayatana.m...pe... kabali"nkaaro aahaaro-idan ta.m ruupa.m baahira.m.> kabali"nkaaro aahaaro: morsel made food, thus the food that can be eaten. It supports the inward nutrition (oja) so that it can produce new ruupas. ------- > > L: What is external vedana, sankhara and vi~n~nyana? ------- N: Text Vis. 198. (iv)-(v) The classification into 'internal' and 'external' should be understood according to the internal in the sense of one's own. ------ N: External feeling is feeling of another person. We read in the “Book of Analysis”: ------ Also citta and the other accompanying cetasikas, apart from feeling, can be classified as past, future or present, as internal or external, as gross or subtle, as inferior or superior, and as far or near. Thus the other naamakkhandhas can be internal or external in the same way. Nina. #95598 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sun Feb 1, 2009 7:18 am Subject: Re: Q.[dsg] Beginner abhidhamma questions ptaus1 Dear Nina, thanks for your reply. It's really great being able to ask you questions directly. I wish you a good trip and hope to continue the discussion when you come back. Sincerely pt #95599 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sun Feb 1, 2009 6:09 am Subject: There Was A Group Called DSG TGrand458@... There was a group called DSG ...Dhamma Study Group, But in that group the Study was a pre-subscripted loop. They used the Buddha's teaching to merely support dogmatic ends, Commentarial promoted points by K Sujin and friends. Oh a twisted tale we tell when tails lead toward the truth, I might point out it's ass-backwards but that would be uncouth. And so I'll leave it in your hands the best to you I glibly-wish, But DSG methinks it stands for Demented Sectarian Gibberish. I'm telling you and this is true I love you just the same, Conditions made me send this thing There's no TG to blame. :-) =========== * Howard's signature blocks: == A change in anything is a change in everything (Anonymous) == Entrances to holiness are everywhere. The possibility of ascent is all the time, even at unlikely times and through unlikely places. There is no place without the Presence. (From Mishkan T'filah, the new Reform prayerbook) == He who does not find core or substance in any of the realms of being, like flowers which are vainly sought in fig trees that bear none - such a seeker gives up the here and the beyond, just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin. (From the Uraga Sutta) == Suppose there were a river, flowing down from the mountains "going far, its current swift, carrying everything with it" and a man would open channels leading away from it on both sides, so that the current in the middle of the river would be dispersed, diffused, & dissipated; it wouldn't go far, its current wouldn't be swift, and it wouldn't carry everything with it. In the same way, when a seeker has not abandoned these five obstacles, hindrances that overwhelm awareness and weaken discernment, i.e., sensual desire, ill will, sloth & torpor, restlessness & anxiety, and sceptical doubt, when s/he is without strength and too weak in discernment to understand what is for one's own benefit, to understand what is for the benefit of others, to understand what is for the benefit of both, then to realize a superior human state, a truly noble distinction in knowledge & vision: that is impossible. (From the Avarana Sutta) == Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream. (From the Diamond Sutra) == When knowing what is to be known, he doesn't construe an [object as] known. He doesn't construe an unknown. He doesn't construe an [object] to-be-known. He doesn't construe a knower. (The Buddha, speaking of himself in the Kalakarama Sutta) == See how the world together with the devas has self-conceit for what is not-self. Enclosed by mind-and-body it imagines, 'This is real.' Whatever they imagine it to be, it is quite different from that. It is unreal, of a false nature and perishable. Nibbana, not false in nature, that the Noble Ones know as true. Indeed, by the penetration of the true, they are completely stilled and realize final deliverance. (From the Dvayatanupassana Sutta) == Just as when a person whose turban or head was on fire would put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, undivided mindfulness, & alertness to put out the fire on his turban or head; in the same way, the monk should put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, undivided mindfulness, & alertness for the abandoning of those very same evil, unskillful qualities. (From the Sacitta Sutta) == "Rouse yourself! Sit up! What good is there in sleeping? For those afflicted by disease (suffering), struck by the arrow (craving), what sleep is there? "Rouse yourself! Sit up! Resolutely train yourself to attain peace. Do not let the king of death, seeing you are careless, lead you astray and dominate you. "Go beyond this clinging, to which devas and men are attached, and (the pleasures) they seek. Do not waste your opportunity. When the opportunity has passed they sorrow when consigned to Niraya-hell. "Negligence is a taint, and so is the (greater) negligence growing from it. By earnestness and understanding withdraw the arrow (of sensual passions)." (From the Utthana Sutta) ==