#96600 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Mar 17, 2009 8:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Does This Come From K.Sujin:2? Re: K.Sujin on meditation sarahprocter... Hi Rob Ep again! --- On Thu, 12/3/09, Robert Epstein wrote: >> S: It boils down to past and present panna as the condition for more panna! ... R:> Hm...How does the panna get through in the first place? That may be one of those "questions to be avoided." ... S: Yes, I think it might! Just like the first ignorance or the first attachment... As we know, the hearing of Dhamma is the condition for panna (of satipatthana) to arise, so there had to have been that hearing and considering before. ... >>S: I think that as soon as we begin to differentiate between the different kinds of situation you suggest (sitting, non-distracted) as being more conducive, it indicates a lack of confidence in the power of panna and sati to arise anytime, any place. ... R:> I guess it's the idea that there must be something to cause them to arise. If conditions create the arising, then what creates those conditions? You mentioned former arisings of panna in the past, but how does it break through in the first place? There must be moments of insight that come out of something. .... S: Again, first there has to be many moments of hearing, listening, attending to the Dhamma. So the 'first' panna (if you wish to put it like that), has to for all except Buddhas, be the intellectual understanding based on what is heard. ... >>S: If I'm distracted now by Jon calling out to me, what's the use of thinking that less distraction or sitting quietly would be more useful to the Path? It would just be attachment to such situations masquerading as some kind of wisdom, I think. It all comes back to the present moment. ... R:> I guess I have the idea that if one is constantly whipped around dealing with this and that, there's not much space or moments to consider what is happening wisely or otherwise. If there is some space of undistraction, one can look more easily. ... S: I think that the consideration and wise attention (yoniso manasikara) being referred to in this context is very different from our conventional ideas of consideration or wise thinking which tend to need time and space and lack of distraction, as you suggest. Yoniso manasikara, on the other hand occurs so quickly with the javana process following moments of seeing or hearing or other sense-door experiences. There isn't time for it to 'make space', 'concentrate on an object', take the telephone of the hook or silence the family! Right understanding of realities can arise at any time whatsoever - no 'situation' or kind of dhamma arising is a hindrance in that any reality can be the object. As Ken H said, this is regardless of whether it's a lofty jhana citta or a lowly dosa-mula-citta. (I forget his exact fine turn-of-phrase). Actually, usually wrong view is given as being the only hindrance. ... R:>>Thank you Sarah; I'm not quite ready to summarize yet, but I will keep at it. This is a tough area to dig into, but a good one. I appreciate your support, though I may keep ignoring the doorway and banging on the wall. ... S: Anytime for either the summary or the banging on the wall:-)) Metta, Sarah ======== #96601 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Mar 17, 2009 9:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] truth and prepared seats sarahprocter... Hi Pt, Thank you very much for thoughtfully including the following interesting excerpt: --- On Thu, 12/3/09, ptaus1 wrote: >I accidentally came upon an excerpt which seems related to the issue of prepared seats: >"It is said that wherever a monk dwells during the Buddha's time, in the vicinity of the Buddha, he would always have ready a special seat for the Buddha because it is possible that the Buddha would pay him a special visit (DA.i.48). Sometimes the Buddha will send a ray of light from his Gandhakuti to encourage a monk engaged in meditation and, appearing before him in this ray of light, preach to him. Stanzas so preached are called obh_sag_th_ (SnA..i.16, 265)." http://what- buddha-said. net/library/ DPPN/b/buddha. htm I'm not sure how much this answers the question since the quote mentions only monks, but I'd guess that at the time it was probably well known that the Buddha could drop in at any time anywhere through his psychic power, so I would certainly keep a seat prepared for him even if I wasn't a monk :) Just thought I'd share the quote as it might be relevant. .... S: Yes, good point. I think that even when the Buddha was not in the vicinity, the seat would be prepared according to his kamma. It's not something I know much about at all, however. It might be interesting to look at some references. As for the 'engaged in meditation' which someone picked up on, this can be referring to the development of samatha (and satipatthana). Pt, you mentioned you are in Australia. Can I ask which part? Jon'll be passing through Sydney tomorrow, but won't be stopping on the outward leg to Fiji at least. I've appreciated your discussion with Scott on rupas and ADL questions. Pls don't disappear for too long!! Metta, Sarah ====== #96602 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Mar 17, 2009 10:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] my personal copy of KS's Survey sarahprocter... Dear Rob Ep, Sukin & Nina, --- On Sat, 14/3/09, Robert Epstein wrote: >Just wanted to thank you, as I have just received the copy of KS's Survey which you arranged to have sent to me. It is a beautiful volume and not at all overly large, but a fine quality book with very nice paper. See, I am noticing the little things in the moment again.... :-))) .... S: thx for you kind note and like Nina, I look forward to when you get past the nice paper:-)) Also, thanks to Sukin for his help and Kevin our postman in the States on his return from Bangkok. We enjoyed meeting him very much. Metta, Sarah p.s. Sukin, any news of Kevin? Will he be joining us here? =========== #96603 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Mar 17, 2009 10:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] There IS atta that does sarahprocter... Hi Alex, --- On Sat, 14/3/09, Alex wrote: >Dhp 165: "Attana hi katam papam, attana samkilissati. " By Atta the evil is done, by Atta one becomes soiled/impure. .... S: Atta, referring to 'himself', 'oneself', 'herself', etc is probably the most common meaning in the texts. It's common, conventional usage, Alex! ... >AN 3.337: There is attakaro "self doing" <<"a certain brahmin approached the Blessed One exchanged friendly greetings, sat on a side and said: Good Gotama I am of this view and say: 'Nothing is done by the self, nothing is done by others.' Brahmin, I have not seen or heard of such a view: How could someone by himself, approaching and receding say 'Nothing is done by the self, nothing is done by others?' <...> ... S: We've discussed this sutta at length before. See 'Useful Posts': For example, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/49677 >S: AN Bk of 6s, viii(38),PTS 'Self-acting'(Attakaara Sutta) Herman gave a translation in #48434 'The one who is doing' The brahman's comment: natthi attakaaro, natthi parakaaroti 'there is no self-agency; no other-agency' PTS gives a footnote to say this was Makkhali Gosala's heresy. More on this can be read in the Saama~n~naphala Sutta. He was one of the 6 teachers whose views were given by King Ajattasattu. He didn't believe in conditions of kamma at all. BB translation from the Samannaphala Sutta under 'The Doctrine of Makkhali Gosala': "...Makkhali Gosala said to me: 'Great king, there is no cause or condition for the defilement of beings; beings are defiled without any cause or condition. There is no cause or condition for the purification of beings; beings are purified without cause or condition. There is no self-determination, no determination by others, no personal determination. There is no power, no energy, no personal strength, no personal fortitude. All sentient beings, all living beings, all creatures, all souls, are helpless, powerless, devoid of energy. Undergoing transformation by destiny, circumstance, and nature, they experience pleasure and pain in the six classes of men. .... "Though one might think: 'by this moral discipline or observance or austerity or holy life I will ripen unripened kamma and eliminate ripened kamma whenever it comes up' - that cannot be. For pleasure and pain are measured out. Samsara's limits are fixed, and they can neither be shortened or extended. There is no advancing forward and no falling back. Just as, when a ball of string is thrown, it rolls along unwinding until it comes to its end, in the same way, the foolish and the wise roam and wander (for the fixed length of time), after which them make an end to suffering.' " **** S: Clearly this is the worst of wrong views because someone who believes it makes no difference at all how one acts can do anything at all -- the results will be the same. In the AN sutta, the Buddha replies that he has never seen or heard of such a view and proceeds to dispel it.< ***** A:> Before one jumps to hasty conclusion that that Atta is merely conventional 5 aggregate atta, please don't forget: >Dhp279: ''Sabbe dhamma anattati - All things (Sabbe) are not-Self. >Thus the Attana in Dhp:165 is NOT sabba dhamma anatta. .... S: In other words, no atta is to be found anywhere in anything. Metta, Sarah ======== #96604 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Mar 17, 2009 10:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ignored Atta (The Self) teachings of the Buddha. The heresy of No Self sarahprocter... Dear Alex, --- On Sat, 14/3/09, Alex wrote: >There are plenty of sutta quotes where the Buddha has stated clearly that atta does exist. There is even a whole section in Dhammapada called Attavagga. Dhammapada Attavagga 165: "Attana hi katam papam, attana samkilissati. " Attana = atta (self, soul) in instrumental sg. By Atta the evil is done, by atta one becomes soiled/impure. Not only atta exists, it is something that can do (kata) and become soiled/impure samkilissati! .... S: "The evil done by oneself, arising in oneself, and caused by oneself, destroys the foolish one, just as a diamond grinds the rock from which it is formed." Alex, the only dhammas that arise and fall away are cittas, cetasikas and rupas. The akusala dhammas which we refer to as 'oneself' cause all the harm, all the akusala vipaka for 'oneself'. Whatever language we use, only kusala, akusala, vipaka and kiriya cittas. .... >160: Atta hi attano natho, ko hi natho paro siya. Attana hi sudantena, natham labhati dullabham.. 160. self truly is the protector of self; who else could the protector be? With self well tamed, self gains protection that is hard to gain. .... S: "One ideed is one's own refuge; how can others be a refuge to one? With oneself thoroughly tamed, one can attain a refuge, which is so difficult to attain." The final refuge is the fruit of arahatship. It is the development of the eightfold path, the noble mental factors which are the refuge. There is no external refuge at all. Without an understanding of dhammas as anatta, there will never be any refuge. ... >Again, the Atta can protect and be protected. Atta can be tamed and gain protection from evil states that is hard to gain. .... S: An illusion if you are referring to anything other than a conventional 'oneself' signifying particular dhammas... .... >What is this Atta? In Sabba sutta, the Buddha has called the 12 ayatanas to be Anatta – is not Self. Thus that atta in Attavagga CANNOT BE conventional 5 aggregate (or 12 ayatana) thing which is anatta! ... S: Right, it's just the conventional use of 'oneself' or 'himself'. ... >Note: Just because something is indescribable, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The Buddha here did not say that there isn't anything outside of 12 ayatanas. There is at least one `thing' , Nibbana. What is "it lies beyond range" ? : ) .... S: Nibbana is included in the 'All' for those who have experienced it. 'All' means 'All'! It is included in Dhammaayatana. If we can agree so far (!!), then please come back with the rest of your quotes for discussion (preferably one at a time), #96519, as they all have to be checked. Metta, Sarah ======= #96605 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Mar 17, 2009 11:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: patience sarahprocter... Hi Phil,[*Alex] You may no longer be reading, but as you asked, I'll give a comment... --- On Fri, 13/3/09, Phil wrote: >Hi Sarah, I like this story, and Ann's. >>S:Just as I entered the room, one of the dogs gave me a sharp bite on my leg, making a little hole in my trousers. I gave rather a loud 'ouch' and everyone else jumped up out of concern. (Of course, the dog was just doing his 'guard' duty and I was a stranger entering the house to him.) Anyway, K.Sujin quietly sat up, smiled and as in your case, just said 'anatta'! >This seems like a wise and sensible approach to such vipaka. But what if *you* bit the dog? Would she still say that? I wonder.... ;) (Silly hypothesis, but my point is that a difference response is in order when it is our own wrong deeds, as laid out in MN 61.) ... S: I liked Scott's comments and emphasis on understanding there's no 'ought to' in any response. Still, to play along a little....I think you have a point about KS's response above being in the context of vipaka and as a way of encouragement of understanding and detachment when the unforeseen occurs. I don't recall anytime when I or anyone else has bit a dog in her presence, but do recall seeing (or hearing about) occasions when others have expressed strong dosa reactions or spoken/behaved 'inappropriately' in her presence. Often her response at such times is just silence. Sometimes she might try to point out the dhammas involved or encourage metta, but it depends on whether the other person wishes to hear the Dhamma or not at such a time. No rule at all, as Scott said, but I agree that she (or we) tend to respond differently according to whether someone [*Alex, conventional common-use atta] is experiencing vipaka or whether strong akusala cittas are at work. All just dhammas rolling on to be known, but thanks for this and other good questions/comments.... See you in CMA (!!), perhaps with Lukas and/or others.....conditions rule! Metta, Sarah ========== #96606 From: "Scott" Date: Tue Mar 17, 2009 11:50 am Subject: Re: truth and prepared seats scottduncan2 Dear Robert A, Regarding: R: "Since I resolved long ago to forgo further discussions about 'doing or not doing' I will only thank you for your comments and leave it at that." Scott: That's fine. We'd actually be discussing whether dhammas are subject to control. Sati is aware. Pa~n~naa sees. These states exist and are real and contribute to moment-to-moment consciousness. I'm sorry I couldn't resist responding to the following, after you dropped in to make the assertion (however, you did say it): R: "...That is why it is good, to a certain extent, to practice mindfulness of your moment to moment experience with openness and spaciousness to see what is there, not necessarily what theory has prepared you to see." Scott: This isn't about 'doing or not doing.' We could discuss the story of the Emperor's Clothes. I think that the above is mere repetition of modern pop-buddhist rhetoric. If you made the statement to show how it is incorrect to consider the lack of control over dhammas, you might have just said so. Then we could simply agree to disagree. In the absence of senseless discussions which take the form of endless debate, what sort of discussion can evolve next on the forum? There is a lull in discussions. I see it as an evolution of the forum. Slowly the discussions will take on new forms and new ways of proceeding. Can you contribute in a meaningful way? Substantial discussion is not the endless making of opposing assertions, with each round seeing a ramping up of vehemence and entrenchment and missionary zeal. I see you to have made one of those trite pop-buddhist assertions, no offence. If you make it simply to be a missionary for the modern buddhist project and want to leave it at that, then definitely enough said. On the off-chance that you might believe what you wrote, I'd suggest you re-consider. Do you actually believe that you can, say right now, will yourself to be mindful? Do you think that mindfulness works that way? Do you know what 'mindfulness' is? What is 'openness and spaciousness'? Does this mean something to you? On the other hand, why don't you consider the value of rejecting the pop-buddhist stance. It is much ado about nothing. It has become nothing more than acting and sounding like a buddhist when there is no such thing. It totally misses the point. So what if it has been years that you've seen it this way. What if you've been wrong? I happen to find it very, very valuable to consider that while dhammas 'do' according to characteristic and condition, they are anatta. Would you like to discuss anatta? Would you like to discuss the uncontrollable nature of dhammas? Can we somehow move beyond rhetoric? Sincerely, Scott. #96607 From: "Dhammanando Bhikkhu" Date: Tue Mar 17, 2009 3:35 pm Subject: Re: Are KS Folks Less Intelligent Than Monkeys? I Hope Not. dhammanando_... Hi Jon, > 2. The passage you translate as "the monk goes to the forest > or to the root of the tree or to a quiet building" -- i.e., > using the present tense "goes" -- is more usually translated > using the past participle "gone", which may carry a > different connotation. What is the basis in the Pali for > "goes", as opposed to "gone"? "Gone" would be a more literal rendering of "gata". However, I don't think we should read this as having a different connotation to "goes". It's just that this is how a narrative of successive actions gets phrased in Pali. Unlike in English, where a sequence of events will be indicated by a series of finite verbs (e.g., "she leaves her home, drives to town, parks her car, enters the supermarket, and buys a frozen pizza"), in Pali the convention is to indicate the sequence with a series of past participles or absolutives (or both), with only the very last action being shown by an active finite verb: "Having left her home, having driven to town, having parked her car, having entered the supermarket, she buys a frozen pizza." An example from the Baahiya Sutta: "te bhikkhuu bhagavato pa.tissutvaa, baahiyassa daaruciiriyassa sariiraka.m ma~ncaka.m aaropetvaa, niiharitvaa, jhaapetvaa, thuupa~ncassa katvaa, yena bhagavaa tenupasa`nkami.msu; upasa`nkamitvaa bhagavanta.m abhivaadetvaa ekamanta.m nisiidi.msu" A very literal translation: "Those bhikkhus, having been instructed by the Blessed One, having placed the remains of Baahiya of the Bark-garment on a litter, having carried it away, having cremated it, having made a stupa for it, approached to where the Blessed One was. Having approached, having bowed to the Blessed One, they sat down at one side." But as such a rendering sounds odd in English, most translators will use present participles and/or finite verbs rather than rendering all the absolutives and past participles literally. Thanissaro: "After placing Bahiya's body on a litter, carrying it off, cremating it, and building him a memorial, they went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side." Ireland: "Taking Bahiya's body, they put it upon a litter, carried it away and burnt it, and made a stupa for it. Then they went to the Lord, prostrated themselves, and sat down to one side." Similarly with the Satipa.t.thaana Sutta, the passage we are discussing reads: "idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu ara~n~na-GATO vaa, rukkhamuulaGATO vaa, su~n~naagaaraGATO vaa, nisiidati, palla`nka.m AABHUJITVAA, uju.m kaaya.m PA.NIDHAAYA, parimukha.m sati.m UPA.T.THAPETVAA." The only finite verb in this passage is nisiidati ("sits down"). 'Aabhujitvaa' and 'upa.t.thapetvaa' are absolutives, and 'gato' and 'pa.nidhaaya' are past participles, which in this sentence perform the same function as an absolutive. And so a literal rendering would be: "Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu, having gone to a forest or having gone to the root of a tree or having gone to an empty building, sits down, having folded his legs, having set his body upright, having established mindfulness in front of him." Best wishes, Dhammanando #96608 From: "Alex" Date: Tue Mar 17, 2009 3:42 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] control & doing truth_aerator Hi Sarah and all, > sarah abbott wrote: > > > Hi Alex, > .... > S: Atta, referring to 'himself', 'oneself', 'herself', etc is >probably the most common meaning in the texts. It's common, >conventional usage, Alex! But don't the people on this board say that there is no even conventional "self" which does this or that due to causes and conditions, but *does* nevertheless. > PTS gives a footnote to say this was Makkhali Gosala's heresy. Not just his. Some people also claim that nothing can be done, no control, (since there isn't anyone to do anything in the first place), etc etc. You are going on a tangent in that quote. The topic of discussion isn't rebirth or kamma. The topic of discussion is the fact that there *IS* doing, and the doing that interests me, is to remove akusala and achieve akusala (in a sense of magga-phala) > .... > "Though one might think: 'by this moral discipline or observance or > austerity or holy life I will ripen unripened kamma and eliminate >ripened kamma whenever it comes up' - that cannot be. For pleasure >and pain are measured out. Samsara's limits are fixed, and they can >neither be shortened or extended. There is no advancing forward and >no falling back. Just as, when a ball of string is thrown, it rolls along unwinding until > it comes to its end, in the same way, the foolish and the wise roam >and > wander (for the fixed length of time), after which them make an end >to > suffering.' " > **** >S: Clearly this is the worst of wrong views because someone who >believes > it makes no difference at all how one acts can do anything at all -- the > results will be the same. > Wait a sec. How is the above different from "don't do anything! You can't avoid akusala and develop kusala" teaching? > In the AN sutta, the Buddha replies that he has never seen or heard >of > such a view and proceeds to dispel it.< > ***** > >A:> Before one jumps to hasty conclusion that that Atta is merely >conventional 5 aggregate atta, please don't forget: > > >Dhp279: ''Sabbe dhamma anattati - All things (Sabbe) are not-Self. > > >Thus the Attana in Dhp:165 is NOT sabba dhamma anatta. > .... > S: In other words, no atta is to be found anywhere in anything. But some theorists [I don't believe them] claim that Buddha refuted Atta in the 5 aggregates, and that Atta 'exists' in some indescribable way outside of 5 aggregates and some quotes from Dhp almost support it. It seems contradictory that Buddha first rejects atta (in Sabbe), and then claims that atta does and gets defiled. Metta, Alex #96609 From: "Alex" Date: Tue Mar 17, 2009 3:48 pm Subject: Re: Nibbana is NOT THE ALL> truth_aerator Dear Sarah (and all interested) > sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Alex, > > .... > S: Nibbana is included in the 'All' for those who have experienced >it. 'All' means 'All'! It is included in Dhammaayatana. For those who experienced Nibbana in the all, have not experienced Nibbana of the Buddha. Nibbana is unconditioned, the All is conditioned. Nibbana is permanent (in a sense of being final, as fire that is extinguished never lights up again, same with final nibbana). In final nibbana the mind and body ceases, thus final Nibbana cannot be included in any ayatana by definition! The final and remainder less cessation of ALL (mental & physical) is final Nibbana. It exists like extinguished flame does NOT exist. With metta, Alex #96610 From: "Scott" Date: Wed Mar 18, 2009 2:28 am Subject: Re: Nibbana is NOT THE ALL> scottduncan2 Dear Sarah (and Alex) Regarding: S: "Nibbana is included in the 'All' for those who have experienced it. 'All' means 'All'! It is included in Dhammaayatana." A: "For those who experienced Nibbana in the all, have not experienced Nibbana of the Buddha...It exists like extinguished flame does NOT exist." Scott: Pa.tisambhidaamagga I : "It is to be directly known that despair is formations and non-despair is nibbaana." 22 "...Nibbaana which merges in the deathless, through its meaning of ending, is to be directly known." 44 "Knowledge is in the sense of being known and understanding is in the sense of the act of understanding that. Hence it was said: 'Understanding of the termination of occurrence in one who is fully aware is knowledge of extinguishment'." 463 Sincerely, Scott. #96611 From: "Robert" Date: Wed Mar 18, 2009 3:51 am Subject: Re: truth and prepared seats avalo1968 Hello Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott" wrote: > > Dear Robert A, > > On the off-chance that you might believe what you wrote, I'd suggest you re-consider. Do you actually believe that you can, say right now, will yourself to be mindful? Do you think that mindfulness works that way? Do you know what 'mindfulness' is? What is 'openness and spaciousness'? Does this mean something to you? > Well, yes, I do believe what I wrote and it does mean something to me. I can illustrate best what it means to me by suggesting an experiment for you. The next time someone writes something you find as nonsensical as what I wrote, try this (maybe even while you are reading this reply): take a few quiet breaths, and then see if you can shift your attention from the content of your thought (what a fool this guy is, how I need to save the purity of Buddhism from this new age twaddle) to the mind state (aversion, contempt, etc). If the mind state you see is unskillful, see if you might be able to substitute one more skillful in its place. See how your reactivity can shift - body sensations, feelings, and thoughts - with the shift in the mind state and get to know your own reactivity and if perhaps there are some fixed views and story lines playing out here. At this point you just might find things opening up and relaxing, you might have a sensation you are seeing things a little more clearly. At that point you will know what I mean by 'openness and spaciousness'. > On the other hand, why don't you consider the value of rejecting the pop-buddhist stance. It is much ado about nothing. It has become nothing more than acting and sounding like a buddhist when there is no such thing. It totally misses the point. So what if it has been years that you've seen it this way. What if you've been wrong? I happen to find it very, very valuable to consider that while dhammas 'do' according to characteristic and condition, they are anatta. > > Would you like to discuss anatta? Would you like to discuss the uncontrollable nature of dhammas? Can we somehow move beyond rhetoric? > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > I don't know why I would be wanting to be acting or sounding like anything - Buddhist, Hindu, Hare Krishna, or Methodist. I posted initially because Ken said something I found interesting and I wanted to explore it with him and we did that, hopefully to the satisfaction of both of us. When I was discussing with him, I did not feel that either one of us was trying to prove which of us was the better Buddhist. We were just exchanging ideas, I hope in a friendly and respectful way. Ken is that, and that is why I would be likely to respond to one of his posts. What if I have been wrong all these many years? Well, then I have been wrong. I feel like I have gained much from the years I have been working with trying to understand these teachings. I know I don't have anything to teach those who graze here at DSG and I don't try to do that. I don't post here very often. Occasionally someone says something I find particularly interesting and I want to explore that further. I am afraid to do that I must post. I will work to keep my future posts as free of pseudo-Buddhism as I can. Regards, Robert A. #96613 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Mar 18, 2009 5:28 am Subject: Confidence & Conviction! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: What is Unwavering Faith & assured Confidence? The blessed Buddha once noted: Knowing, Friends, evil covetousness and wicked greed to be mental pollutions, the Bhikkhu leaves them, rejects them, eliminates them and eradicates them... Knowing hating ill will to be a mental pollution, he leaves all hostile ill will. Knowing aversive anger to be a mental pollution, he rejects all anger. Knowing vicious revenge to be a mental pollution, he avoids revenge. Knowing contempt to be a mental pollution, he releases contempt. Knowing tyranny to be a mental pollution, he abandons tyranny. Knowing green envy to be a mental pollution, he deserts envy. Knowing self-conceit to be a mental pollution, he quits conceit. Knowing hypocrisy to be a mental pollution, he dodges hypocrisy. Knowing negligence to be a mental pollution, he stops negligence. Knowing puffed pride to be a mental pollution, he cuts out pride. Knowing jealousy to be a mental pollution, he withdraws jealousy. Knowing obstinacy to be a mental pollution, he gives up obstinacy. Knowing vain vanity to be a mental pollution, he relinquishes vanity. Knowing cheating fraud to be a mental pollution, he eschews fraud. Knowing arrogance to be a mental pollution, he renounces arrogance. When the Bhikkhu has eliminated all these polluting mental defilements, he then gains unwavering Faith, unshakable Confidence and absolutely immovable and imperturbable Conviction in the blessed Buddha thus: Worthy, honourable and perfectly self-Enlightened is the Buddha! Fully consummated in knowledge and behaviour, totally transcended, expert in all dimensions, knower of all worlds, unsurpassable trainer of those who can be tamed, both teacher and guide of gods as well as humans, blessed, exalted, awakened & enlightened is the Buddha! He gains unwavering Faith, Confidence & Conviction in the Dhamma thus: Perfectly formulated is the Buddha-Dhamma, visible right here and now, immediately effective, timeless, inviting each and everyone to come and see for themselves, inspect, examine and verify... Leading each and everyone through progress towards perfection! Directly observable, experiencable & realizable by each intelligence! He gains unwavering Faith, Confidence and Conviction in the Sangha thus: Perfectly training is this Noble Sangha community of Buddha's Noble disciples: Training the right way, the true way, the good way, the direct way! Therefore do these 8 kinds of individuals, these four Noble pairs, deserve both gifts, self-sacrifice, offerings, hospitality and reverential salutation even with joined palms, since this Noble Sangha community of the Buddha's Noble disciples, is indeed an unsurpassable and forever unsurpassed field of merit, in this world, for this world, to honour, support, award, respect, and protect! When he has given up, left and eliminated these mental pollutions he knows: I am convinced by steady unwavering Faith & Confidence in the Buddha... in the Dhamma... in the Sangha... He therefore gains enthusiasm for the goal, gains inspiration from the Dhamma, & gains the gladness connected with this true Dhamma. When gladdened, a rapturous joy is born in him; being joyous in mind, his body becomes tranquil; his body being tranquil, he feels happiness; and the mind of him, who is happy becomes concentrated into full intense absorption! Faith is the seeding initiator of the Noble Way! Source: Majjhima Nikaya MN 7 Vatthupama Sutta: The Simile of the Cloth! http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.007.nypo.html <...>Passing it on to the next generation! Confidence & Conviction! Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samāhita, Sri Lanka * #96614 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Wed Mar 18, 2009 6:16 am Subject: Re: truth and prepared seats epsteinrob Hi Ken. I may have answered this post before. If so, I am doing it again. Apparently it has a lot of appeal. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi Robert Ep, > > ---------- > KH: > > I know that the ariyan's supramundane understanding is vastly greater than the beginner's intellectual understanding, but even so, the two are the same cetasika (panna ) aren't they? > > > > > RE: > Do you believe that panna is of the intellect, that it is a form of intellectual knowing? > ----------- > > Which absolute reality are you referring to as "the intellect." Or are you referring to a conventional reality? If it is the latter then we are going to have a hard time communicating. Realities and concepts do not mix. Well you seem to do fine defining it via absolutes a little further down. The explanation works. I think the fact that "intellect" vs. "direct knowing" is seen as a conventional concept is a problem indeed. If you do not have such a distinction then you may think it is fine to have a concept instead of a reality in your apprehension, however you want to define it. It should not be assumed that if I don't use your terminology that I am being "conceptual" while you are being "accurate." > Leaving aside concepts of "intellect" I would describe panna as a cetasika. It is a cetasika that sometimes arises with [kusala] citta. When it does so it experiences the same object that the citta is experiencing. That is fascinating. So the mental qualities that accompany consciousness actually experience things? And at the same time? How many folks are there hanging out in the citta and experiencing realities together? I would think that only citta would experience and that the panna would belong to the citta as a quality of its experiencing. But if citta and panna and kusala and a bunch of their friends are all hanging out together experiencing the dhamma together, that is quite a group. It's like watching a football game on TV, I guess. > If the object is a concept then panna is experiencing a concept: if it is a reality then panna experiences a reality. Panna and citta experience this together, eh? Do they talk about it afterwards while sharing a cigarette? > In the former cases, I would say there was "intellectual" knowing, and in the latter, "direct" knowing. Well, whatever the object is, I guess you could say it is direct actual knowing when you know what you are actually dealing with, and when you understand what it is or what it means. So if you know a concept as concept, and you understand whatever that concept has to offer by way of its content, then you know that concept directly and fully. If you know an object as object and know what it is, then you know that object directly. So if I am talking about panna, at the time I am referencing it, I am referencing it as a concept, not a reality. I can reference that concept as a reality, but that concept is not panna, it is a concept of panna. When panna is a reality, it is not known as an object; it is a quality of a citta having wisdom. Wisdom is not a thingy that hangs around on a citta, it is a quality of the citta, just like I can be in a good mood or a bad mood conventionally; my mood does not hang out with me as a separate thing - it is just a description of how I am being. Likewise, if consciousness is awake and wise, those are qualities of that consciousness; they are not separate thingies that hang around on or with or next to consciousness; they refer to the attributes of that consciousness. If you say that panna knows what the citta knows as if they are two consciousnesses collaborating with each other, you are turning them into entities, you are describing them as if they are dhammas that can also be known. Since there are many cetasikas that arise with a given citta, you are basically saying that they are all separate little entities that travel around together, and so you are objectifying them, as well as the citta. Because if a citta is a discrete thing that can have these friends and relatives that accompany it, it is also a thingie that has a certain description or boundary. Then you are taking "name and form," nama and rupa, and you are applying them to the citta and cetasika the same way that any worldling applies nama and rupa to the seeming objects of the world. > ----------------------------------- > RE: > Earlier you used the analogy of learning to build a boat by reading a book. Do you think that anyone has ever built a real boat by reading a book? This intellectual knowledge may be a prerequisite to building a boat, but by itself this form of intellectual knowledge is practically useless. What can the book tell you about how to hold and bend the wood, to seal it so that it doesn't leak, to put the pieces together with skill and to design the entire thing so that you don't wind up with a piece of raft attached to a bowl by the time you > get to the end? You not only need some form of apprenticeship and mentorship from someone who has built a boat before, but you need years of practical hands-on experience practicing and perfecting each skill of design, carpentry, wood-curing, and other building skills before you can even look at building a boat. So the idea that book-knowledge will teach you a skill of this kind is ludicrous. > > There are things you can learn from books, and if you had ten years you might even be able to build a boat from a book, step by step, but it is not the optimal or even the sensible way to attempt such a task. > ---------------------- > > OK, I can agree with all of that. Might I just say, by the way, that my remark about books was in response to Alex's assertion that we didn't get understanding through reading books. Yes, and I was responding to exactly what we can learn from books and what we can't. Alex was saying that direct knowing of dhammas cannot come from a book, and I agree with that. I think the confusion between paripatti and actual experience of that which paripatti "knows about," is a major major issue and one of great confusion to those who think that paripatti is an adequate place-holder for direct knowing. They may not only be totally unrelated to each other, as Alex was saying, but they may even be antagonists. The idea of something, as correct as it may be on paper, may block the path of direct knowing by substituting itself and putting itself in the way of direct knowing. Those who are relying on correct concepts of citta and cetasika and dhamma to hold the place and prepare the way fore direct knowing of dhamma through kusala citta may be blocking their actual perception and knowing of dhamma by substituting this continual stream of ideation and not acknowledging it as mere ideation. And that frankly is the danger of not accepting any form of practice as legitimate. There is no one who is arguing the Alex-Robert-Howard side of this argument who is not in favor of knowing dhammas directly in everyday life, as they arise and without planning. This side of the argument is not against that at all. It is instead against blocking the practice that may increase the understanding of what direct awareness is, and which may try to substitute study of concepts for time in the field actually looking into the nature of arising dhammas. Meditation is the practice of this. By saying that it is a form of akusala conceptualization of self, you block the possibility of such practice, and leave yourself with nothing but theory and the hope that it will have a correct effect on your perception of dhammas when they arise and when you happen to have the sati to perceive them correctly. All of the sages, including Buddha himself, kept encouraging people to practice, to strive, to use will to promote practice, even though they knew that there was no self to do these things. They knew that such attempts would influence the consciousness at play and point it in the right direction. They were not concerned with the technicality of telling a "person who doesn't exist" to do something and that this would produce wrong view. They knew that the practice would cut through wrong view and grow the correct skills for direct knowing. > Generally speaking, understanding is exactly what we do get from reading books, isn't it? That's why technical books are written in the first place. > > But back to your point: yes, I agree that right understanding of the Ariyan Eightfold Path is developed gradually through extensive reading, listening, considering, discussing and application - of the true Dhamma. Well you've got a very exclusive idea of how this is done, and you had better hope as well that the "true Dhamma" is what you're considering and listening too. That's quite a game of chance, is it not? Extensive reading, etc. etc., is a practice; it is an approach to the path; it is based on a view. So you take an intellectual approach to the path, by which I simply mean that it is wrapped up in concept - reading, talking, listening, exchanging ideas, correcting ideas - this is all in the world of concept. Considering the true Dhamma is all concept. It may be correct concept but it is concept. It is not discernment of a dhamma. When do you practice the understanding that you have gained? When do you come face to face with an actual dhamma? When? The reading and considering of the true Dhamma is meant to point you at the truth, not supply it all by itself. The Dhamma is a blueprint, not the reality it talks about. You have to apply it. > But I am not sure that was exactly your point. You may have been suggesting something else. > > -------------------------------- > RE: > Despite the critiques of meditation in this group, meditation is the equivalent of practicing boat-building, rather than just reading about it. Of course you can also practice boat-building in "everyday life," as a piece of wood or a plank or board happens to come along in your everyday activities - you can grab it and do a little work on it and eventually it will all add up to a completed > boat. > > Just kidding...... I realize that discerning the reality of the momentary dhamma *is* something that can occur in everyday life, whereas boat-building obviously cannot. But I hope the main point is clear. > -------------------------------- > > Actually, it is not quite clear. By my analysis "practising boatbuilding" would be equivalent to the last of the factors I mentioned, "application." In the other three factors panna knew *in theory* that there were conditioned dhammas arising now. And it knew in theory that those conditioned dhammas constituted the entire reality of the universe. In a moment of "application" however, panna sees *directly* what it has learnt in theory. It directly experiences a conditioned dhamma that has arisen now to become the object of consciousness (arammana). And how and when does this application take place? Does it happen in the present lifetime, or much much later? > You, I think, mean something very different by "practice." I think you mean (for example) directing one's focus to a cool sensation on the skin: or concentrating on a sharp pain in the knee etc. But that would be awareness of concepts, not awareness of conditioned dhammas (satipatthana). > > Focusing on concepts can be fine in itself, but it has no connection with satipatthana. Focusing on a sensation is not a concept. It is a direct perception. You have your concepts and realities backwards. Thinking about panna is a concept. Perceiving a sensation is a reality. A boat builder may practise ballet dancing during his spare time, and that will do him no harm. However, if thinks that ballet dancing is a form of boat building then he is headed for trouble. :-) That's a straw man. The question is whether building a boat is the same thing as reading about it, not whether boatbuilding is ballet. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = #96615 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Wed Mar 18, 2009 6:29 am Subject: Re: truth and prepared seats epsteinrob Hi Ken. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi Robert Ep, > > ------------- > KH: > > > You, I think, mean something very different by "practice." I think you mean (for example) directing one's focus to a cool sensation on the skin: or concentrating on a sharp pain in the knee etc. But that would be awareness of concepts, not awareness of conditioned dhammas (satipatthana). > <. . .> > > RE: > Why would you consider focusing on an actual sensation a concept? That is the opposite of what it is by any measure. > -------------- > > A sensation of coolness when (for example) a breeze gently touches the skin is a common experience. We don't need a Buddha to tell us there is a sensation of coolness at those times. The same applies to a sharp pain in the knee etc. These are things that belong in the conventionally known world. They are concepts. > > Some people will tell you that a sensation of coolness is an indication that the absolute reality, body consciousness, is presently experiencing the tactile object known as temperature. And they say if you concentrate you will see how temperature arises, interacts with body-consciousness, and falls away. > > But that is nonsense, surely. There are all types of body consciousnesses every second of the day. (Except in deep sleep.) They are mixed up with all the other kinds of consciousnesses (seeing, hearing, bavangha etc), each arising one at a time, persisting for less than a billionth of a second and completely falling away forever. > > A sensation of coolness on the skin is no real indication of any particular dhamma. And most of the time we don't even know which type of dhamma we are talking about. Do we think we are being aware of 'temperature' - a rupa - or is it 'feeling' - a cetasika? If it is feeling, is it bodily feeling or mental feeling? Pleasant or unpleasant? Some people might find the cool breeze experience pleasant, others might find it mildly annoying, or even worse. Under hypnotism, for example, a cool breeze could be hot and painful. > > It's all concepts! :-) We most likely have an unbridgeable disagreement here; and will be condemned to see each other as lost in conceptualization based on a totally different paradigm of how reality is to be sought. It is my understanding that sati is developed not by ignoring ordinary sensation and seeing it as concept, but by attending to it more carefully. This is of course the way in which vipassana meditation is conducted around the world, and your idea is that this is just falling deeper into concept, while categorizing and identifying a bunch of esoteric categories and then applying them to the concept of sensation is in fact direct experience. This is a convoluted way of looking at things. The Buddha's path is not meant to be backwards. It's not meant to take you away from experience in order to conceptualize about it, but to look directly at its nature through the senses and awaken the mind about its true nature. You don't have to identify in the mind all the cetasikas accompanying the consciousness of sensation in order to "know it directly." You know it directly by stilling conceptualization and observing the nature of the sensation, observing how the sensation arises and falls away -- anicca -- how it is unsatisfying and that it is not self. This is observed, not learned from a book. > ------------------------------ > RE: > It seems that the dhamma philosophy somehow has it that focusing on words in a book which is necessarily conceptual is focusing on knowing reality, while focusing on the actual occurence of a real sensation or other occurence in real life is a concept. This appears to be completely backwards. > ------------------------------- > > We simply need to learn the difference between concepts and realities. That is when Abhidhamma starts to make sense to us. Realities are in actual experience, not in a book. Abhidhamma makes sense when it is used as a guide to experience, not as a substitute for experience. When you are reading a book, the way to practice sati is to observe the nature of reading the book, not to get in lost in concepts of the words on the page and never examine the experience of reading. The way to understand sensation is not to read about it, but to observe it. What you are talking about is not Abhidhamma, it is substituting the clarity of conceptual understanding for paying attention to what is actually taking place at the moment. If you think that is experience, and that experience is a concept, it's going to be very hard to get back to reality. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = = = = #96616 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Wed Mar 18, 2009 6:35 am Subject: Re: effort. epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > > Hi Rob Ep, > > --- On Thu, 12/3/09, Robert Epstein wrote: > >Sorry I haven't been around lately. I've been pulled away by the "unreal world" "out there." ha ha. > ... > S: Ah, but you can't escape the realities and conditions that pull you back, ha ha:-) well I guess you are right there. > ... > > --- In dhammastudygroup@ yahoogroups. com, sarah abbott wrote: > >>S: ....It's the right understanding that judges and knows the confusion vs non-confusion, the wisdom vs the ignorance. Again, by conditions... Once there is the understanding of dhammas arising by conditions, no more doubt or confusion about them... > .... > R:> Suddenly occurs to me - why would the process of deluded arising of samsara - eg, impermenent cittas arising in succession - give rise to panna? > .... > S: It isn't the delusion or the fact that cittas are impermanent that gives rise to panna. Panna arises by accumulations for panna and it is the panna which sees the delusion and impermanent dhammas for what they are. So the panna arises *in spite of* the many, many moments of delusion, not because of it, except indirectly in that ignorance is what leads to the continuation of samsara. > ... > R:> And how can the impermenanent cittas realize panna at all? > ... > S: The other way round. Panna (also an impermanent dhamma) realizes impermanent cittas and other dhamma for what they are. So panna can understand the characteristic of panna, just as it can understand the characteristic of any other dhamma. So does panna have consciousness? The idea that cetasikas "see" anything doesn't make sense to me. I thought they were qualities of a particular citta, rather than something in their own right. If you can explain how this works, I'd appreciate it. > R:> I realize this takes place, but it seems strange. When you look at the whole process of change, perception, etc. as being based on delusion that set the wheel of illusion in motion in the first place and then keeps going subject to conditions [almost forever,] it doesn't really make sense that the citta-system can "wake up" at all. > .... > S: Rather than thinking of the 'citta-system' waking-up, I think it's more helpful to think of occasional moments of panna shining the light on the various dhammas appearing. This is why the Buddha's Teachings go against the norm. > ... > > > ... > > >>S: And a little later... > > > "...the individual whose mind is distracted, even upon being spoken to when all other (conditions) have been satisfied, states "(Such) was not heard by me, please state it again". > ... > R:> Yes; and it's fun when the ancient scriptures make such a contemporary comment, yet sad that it's been around so long... > ..... > S: Each generation thinks it discovers something new or wakes-up in some way....but it's all been said and done for aeons. I agree that it's amazing how contemporary some of the ancient texts sound. Yes, it sort of collapses the concept of time, doesn't it. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = #96617 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Wed Mar 18, 2009 6:41 am Subject: [dsg] Does This Come From K.Sujin:2? Re: K.Sujin on meditation epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > > Hi Rob Ep again! > > --- On Thu, 12/3/09, Robert Epstein wrote: > >> S: It boils down to past and present panna as the condition for more panna! > ... > R:> Hm...How does the panna get through in the first place? That may be one of those "questions to be avoided." > ... > S: Yes, I think it might! Just like the first ignorance or the first attachment... As we know, the hearing of Dhamma is the condition for panna (of satipatthana) to arise, so there had to have been that hearing and considering before. I see. The Dhamma is really the underlying condition for wisdom to arise; otherwise, it can't at all? > ... > > >>S: I think that as soon as we begin to differentiate between the different kinds of situation you suggest (sitting, non-distracted) as being more conducive, it indicates a lack of confidence in the power of panna and sati to arise anytime, any place. Well, in my apparently unschooled view, it makes more sense to stoke the fire than let it do whatever it will do. > ... > R:> I guess it's the idea that there must be something to cause them to arise. If conditions create the arising, then what creates those conditions? You mentioned former arisings of panna in the past, but how does it break through in the first place? There must be moments of insight that come out of something. > .... > S: Again, first there has to be many moments of hearing, listening, attending to the Dhamma. So the 'first' panna (if you wish to put it like that), has to for all except Buddhas, be the intellectual understanding based on what is heard. I see. > ... > > >>S: If I'm distracted now by Jon calling out to me, what's the use of thinking that less distraction or sitting quietly would be more useful to the Path? It would just be attachment to such situations masquerading as some kind of wisdom, I think. It all comes back to the present moment. Well I know we have this little divide on this subject. My view would be to look a the distraction if possible and see what is happening - attachment? sensory activity, etc. as it is occurring, and also to have a nice sitting session besides, where I can examine things more closely. > ... > R:> I guess I have the idea that if one is constantly whipped around dealing with this and that, there's not much space or moments to consider what is happening wisely or otherwise. If there is some space of undistraction, one can look more easily. > ... > S: I think that the consideration and wise attention (yoniso manasikara) being referred to in this context is very different from our conventional ideas of consideration or wise thinking which tend to need time and space and lack of distraction, as you suggest. > > Yoniso manasikara, on the other hand occurs so quickly with the javana process following moments of seeing or hearing or other sense-door experiences. There isn't time for it to 'make space', 'concentrate on an object', take the telephone of the hook or silence the family! Right understanding of realities can arise at any time whatsoever - no 'situation' or kind of dhamma arising is a hindrance in that any reality can be the object. I guess you do have more confidence of these moments arising on their own. I don't. I see it as anything that needs to be practiced - what you spend time on or practice is what you get skilled about. The reason that monks devote their lives to a program of study and meditation is because they want to realize the awakened state more quickly. That seems to accord with the Buddha's plan. > As Ken H said, this is regardless of whether it's a lofty jhana citta or a lowly dosa-mula-citta. (I forget his exact fine turn-of-phrase). Actually, usually wrong view is given as being the only hindrance. > ... > > R:>>Thank you Sarah; I'm not quite ready to summarize yet, but I will keep at it. This is a tough area to dig into, but a good one. I appreciate your support, though I may keep ignoring the doorway and banging on the wall. > ... > S: Anytime for either the summary or the banging on the wall:-)) Well, I appreciate it. I'll keep making noise and hope to eventually reach the doorway. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = = = #96618 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Wed Mar 18, 2009 6:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] my personal copy of KS's Survey epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > > Dear Rob Ep, Sukin & Nina, > > --- On Sat, 14/3/09, Robert Epstein wrote: > > >Just wanted to thank you, as I have just received the copy of KS's Survey which you arranged to have sent to me. It is a beautiful volume and not at all overly large, but a fine quality book with very nice paper. See, I am noticing the little things in the moment again.... :-))) > .... > S: thx for you kind note and like Nina, I look forward to when you get past the nice paper:-)) Yes, I am reading parts of it as well, although the paper is very nice. :-) > Also, thanks to Sukin for his help and Kevin our postman in the States on his return from Bangkok. We enjoyed meeting him very much. Thanks to all involved, it is a very nice gift. I have a passage in mind which I wanted to point out, but will have to get to it later, as it is very late. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = = #96619 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Mar 18, 2009 8:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] my personal copy of KS's Survey nilovg Dear Rob Ep, Op 18-mrt-2009, om 7:44 heeft Robert Epstein het volgende geschreven: > Thanks to all involved, it is a very nice gift. I have a passage in > mind which I wanted to point out, but will have to get to it later, > as it is very late. ------- N: Tomorrow is a better day. Looking forward, hint, hint. Nina. #96620 From: "ptaus1" Date: Wed Mar 18, 2009 9:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] truth and prepared seats ptaus1 Hi Sarah, > Pt, you mentioned you are in Australia. Can I ask which part? Jon'll be passing through Sydney tomorrow, but won't be stopping on the outward leg to Fiji at least. I'm usually in Sydney when in Australia. > I've appreciated your discussion with Scott on rupas and ADL questions. Pls don't disappear for too long!! I'll be back soon, have just finished reading Nina's book on rupas, and now I want to go once more through her Conditions before I start posting questions. Best wishes #96621 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Mar 18, 2009 10:22 am Subject: [dsg] Sangiiti Sutta Threes (54-56) and co to sutta 55. nilovg Dear friends, 55: sutta: Walshe: DN 33.1.10(55) 'Three intoxications: with health, with youth, with life. (Tayo madaa : aarogyamado, yobbanamado, jiivitamado.) --------- N: The co states, as to intoxication with health, that someone says: I am healthy, going beyond the age of sixty or seventy. He said that formerly he did not have to swallow a piece of yellow myrobala, and did not suffer from any pain nor did he need any medicin. He said Who else is like me, who is healthy. This is intoxication with health that causes conceit. With regard to intoxication with youth, the co states that someone thinks that he will perform good deeds in old age. This is intoxication with youth that causes conceit. With regard to intoxication with life, the co. states that someone thinks: I will live long, I will lead a happy life. The subco states that he does not consider that life is perishable, subject to death, bound up with suffering. Since he fails to see this he is intoxicated with life. ----------------------- N: Someone who is intoxicated with health, youth and life does not see that whatever arises is conditioned. He thinks that he will delay the performing of kusala until he is old. He does not know that kamma performed in the past can produce result at any time. One may suddenly become sick or one may have to face death. One never knows what kind of reality will arise the next moment. As we read in the M. S. (Bhaddekaratta Sutta of Lomasakangiya ): ....Swelter at the task this very day. Who knows whether he will die tomorrow? There is no bargaining with the great hosts of Death. Thus abiding ardently, unwearied day and night, He indeed is Auspicious called, described as a sage at peace. ******** Co: Madaati majjanaakaaravasena pavattamaanaa. Tesu aha.m nirogo sa.t.thi vaa sattati vaa vassaani atikkantaani,... ********* Nina. #96622 From: "Scott" Date: Wed Mar 18, 2009 11:25 am Subject: Re: truth and prepared seats scottduncan2 Dear Robert A, Thanks for the reply. Regarding: R: "Well, yes, I do believe what I wrote and it does mean something to me." Scott: Yes, of course, I didn't mean to suggest otherwise. I'm not trying to refer to persons, I'm looking at views. As for matters of belief, can they be discussed? R: "...I can illustrate best what it means to me by suggesting an experiment for you...: take a few quiet breaths, and then see if you can shift your attention from the content of your thought...If the mind state you see is unskillful, see if you might be able to substitute one more skillful in its place. See how your reactivity can shift - body sensations, feelings, and thoughts - with the shift in the mind state and get to know your own reactivity and if perhaps there are some fixed views and story lines playing out here. At this point you just might find things opening up and relaxing, you might have a sensation you are seeing things a little more clearly. At that point you will know what I mean by 'openness and spaciousness'." Scott: To me, this is not what I would call 'mindfulness'. Do you consider this to be so? If we differ, can we discuss this? From the start I have a problem with how ordinary thinking - which is what you are suggesting be done - is Dhamma. I don't see that the above differs from any generic relaxation or cognitive exercise and don't think it represents what a Buddha would teach - anyone can (and has) come up with this. I'd ask you, if you think that this is more than ordinary relaxation and thinking, to show how this is the case, should you wish to discuss. Secondly, I have a problem with the idea that one can simply will all this into being. Again, how is this not just thinking about things - which anyone can tell anyone else to do. I'd wonder about the terms in the above: 'attention', 'content of your thought', 'reactivity', 'body sensations', 'feelings', 'thoughts', 'mind state', 'fixed views', 'story lines', 'opening up', 'sensation you are seeing things a little more clearly...' - are there correlates in the Dhamma for these terms? In other words, what are these in terms of dhammas or states, either ruuupa or citta or mental factors (cetasikas)? If they are realities then they can be known - just not by merely thinking about them. I'm not suggesting that thinking about kusala and akusala, for example, is not of use, I'm suggesting it is not 'mindfulness'. R: "...What if I have been wrong all these many years? Well, then I have been wrong...I feel like I have gained much from the years I have been working with trying to understand these teachings..." Scott: Can it be examined? R: "I will work to keep my future posts as free of pseudo-Buddhism as I can." Scott: ;-) You've missed my point, perhaps. Can we discuss? Sincerely, Scott. #96623 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Mar 18, 2009 2:04 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] control & doing sarahprocter... Hi Alex, --- On Tue, 17/3/09, Alex wrote: >> S: Atta, referring to 'himself', 'oneself', 'herself', etc is >probably the most common meaning in the texts. It's common, >conventional usage, Alex! A:> But don't the people on this board say that there is no even conventional "self" which does this or that due to causes and conditions, but *does* nevertheless. .... S: There is no self at all. There are only cittas, cetasikas and rupas. So when the texts refer to 'oneself', 'himself' or whatever else, it's just a convenient or common-language way of referring to these cittas and cetasikas which are performing such deeds/taking refuge or whatever else is being discussed. We can talk in such a way with right or wrong understanding. The right understanding knows there are only dhammas regardless of the language. The wrong understanding takes the conventional 'atta' to exist in actuality, doing any kind of deed or action. .... >>S: PTS gives a footnote to say this was Makkhali Gosala's heresy. A:> Not just his. Some people also claim that nothing can be done, no control, (since there isn't anyone to do anything in the first place), etc etc. A:>You are going on a tangent in that quote. The topic of discussion isn't rebirth or kamma. The topic of discussion is the fact that there *IS* doing, and the doing that interests me, is to remove akusala and achieve akusala (in a sense of magga-phala) .... S: However you quoted from a sutta in which the serious wrong view relates to wrong view about kamma....the belief that it makes no difference what deeds are done as far as the results are concerned. In fact all these wrong views about kamma come back to a lack of understanding of anatta, a lack of understanding of conditioned dhammas - the very opposite of what we've been trying to explain to you at length! .... > >A: Thus the Attana in Dhp:165 is NOT sabba dhamma anatta. > .... > S: In other words, no atta is to be found anywhere in anything. A:> But some theorists [I don't believe them] claim that Buddha refuted Atta in the 5 aggregates, and that Atta 'exists' in some indescribable way outside of 5 aggregates and some quotes from Dhp almost support it. ... S: Some theorists will go to all sorts of lengths to prove that the Buddha really taught an Atta as existing. As you don't believe them (good!), why argue for them? Do you still wonder if there is perhaps some indescribable Self who can choose what to do and discount the conditions and past kamma which he or it doesn't like by making a special effort? A small Self, if not a big Self or a non-Self if not a no-Self or something? ... A:>It seems contradictory that Buddha first rejects atta (in Sabbe), and then claims that atta does and gets defiled. ... S: When we understand that there are only namas and rupas now as we speak or at any other time, it's very simple - nothing contradictory at all. Just dhammas rolling on, whether pure, defiled or any other kind. Keep asking questions on this if not clear, Alex! Metta, Sarah ========= #96624 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Mar 18, 2009 2:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Nibbana is NOT THE ALL> sarahprocter... Dear Alex, Thanks to Scott for his comments too. --- On Tue, 17/3/09, Alex wrote: >> S: Nibbana is included in the 'All' for those who have experienced >it. 'All' means 'All'! It is included in Dhammaayatana. A:> For those who experienced Nibbana in the all, have not experienced Nibbana of the Buddha. .... S: I'm not sure what you're saying, Nibbana is Nibbana - it doesn't belong to the Buddha or anyone else. If Nibbana is realised, it is part of the 'All' which is known. Dhammaayatana includes cetasikas, subtle rupas and Nibbana. Check your Abhidhamma texts:-). .... A:> Nibbana is unconditioned, the All is conditioned. ... S: The 'All' are the 12 ayatanas - all dhammas which can be known. ... A:> Nibbana is permanent (in a sense of being final, as fire that is extinguished never lights up again, same with final nibbana). ... S: We are discussing Nibbana, the dhatu, as included in the ayatanas. We're not discussing khandha-parinbbaana or 'final nibbana' here. Metta, Sarah ======== #96625 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Mar 18, 2009 2:36 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: effort. sarahprocter... Hi Rob Ep, [Jon's at the airport eating some noodles as he waits for his flight (first of three flights) to Fiji. I'm glad to have the distraction as suddenly the flat seems very empty. One can feel sad one moment and then discuss the Dhamma with a friend, like Alex, and completely forget about the sad story:-)] --- On Wed, 18/3/09, Robert Epstein wrote: >> S: The other way round. Panna (also an impermanent dhamma) realizes impermanent cittas and other dhamma for what they are. So panna can understand the characteristic of panna, just as it can understand the characteristic of any other dhamma. R:> So does panna have consciousness? ... S: The citta and accompanying cetasikas all experience (are 'conscious' of) the object. ... R: >The idea that cetasikas "see" anything doesn't make sense to me. ... S: They all have different characteristics and functions. Take the cetasikas that accompany a moment of seeing consciousness. The citta literally sees the visible object. The sanna marks the object, the manasikara attends to the object, the ekaggata concentrates on the object, the phassa contacts the object and so on. They all experience it, assisting each other. ... R:> I thought they were qualities of a particular citta, rather than something in their own right. If you can explain how this works, I'd appreciate it. ... S: They all have characteristics 'in their own right', but cetasikas can never arise without a citta. In the same way, a citta can never arise without at least seven cetasikas. They condition each other by conascence condition. For example, viriya(effort) is always viriya, but the viriya which accompanies a kusala citta is different from the viriya which accompanies an akusala citta, affected by the nature of the other cetasikas and the citta and in turn having its effect on them. Please let me know if this isn't clear as I think it's an important point to clarify. **** > S: Each generation thinks it discovers something new or wakes-up in some way....but it's all been said and done for aeons. I agree that it's amazing how contemporary some of the ancient texts sound. >Yes, it sort of collapses the concept of time, doesn't it. ... S: That's one way of putting it. Isn't it why the truths in the Buddha's teachings are just as valid now as when he spoke? Metta, Sarah ======== #96626 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Mar 18, 2009 2:58 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Does This Come From K.Sujin:2? Re: K.Sujin on meditation sarahprocter... Hi Rob Ep, --- On Wed, 18/3/09, Robert Epstein wrote: R:>I see. The Dhamma is really the underlying condition for wisdom to arise; otherwise, it can't at all? ... S: Yes, hearing and carefully considering the Dhamma. Without a Buddha having taught the Dhamma, no chance of enlightenment. ... ... > >>S: I think that as soon as we begin to differentiate between the different kinds of situation you suggest (sitting, non-distracted) as being more conducive, it indicates a lack of confidence in the power of panna and sati to arise anytime, any place. R:> Well, in my apparently unschooled view, it makes more sense to stoke the fire than let it do whatever it will do. .... S: The question is: who or what does the stoking? ... > >>S: If I'm distracted now by Jon calling out to me, what's the use of thinking that less distraction or sitting quietly would be more useful to the Path? It would just be attachment to such situations masquerading as some kind of wisdom, I think. It all comes back to the present moment. R:> Well I know we have this little divide on this subject. My view would be to look a the distraction if possible and see what is happening - attachment? sensory activity, etc. as it is occurring, and also to have a nice sitting session besides, where I can examine things more closely. ... S: Well we might find that lobha, dosa and moha are pretty well distracting us all the time and never get up from that sitting session:-). ... >>S: Yoniso manasikara, on the other hand occurs so quickly with the javana process following moments of seeing or hearing or other sense-door experiences. There isn't time for it to 'make space', 'concentrate on an object', take the telephone of the hook or silence the family! Right understanding of realities can arise at any time whatsoever - no 'situation' or kind of dhamma arising is a hindrance in that any reality can be the object. R:> I guess you do have more confidence of these moments arising on their own. I don't. I see it as anything that needs to be practiced - what you spend time on or practice is what you get skilled about. ... S: That last comment is correct - that's why we need to be sure that it is the 'right' practice we're getting skilled in. ... R:>The reason that monks devote their lives to a program of study and meditation is because they want to realize the awakened state more quickly. That seems to accord with the Buddha's plan. ... S: He also taught that dhammas are anatta and conditioned. He taught that no one could bring about any state by wishing or wanting to become enlightened. I think he taught a path of right understanding of dhammas. ... >> S: Anytime for either the summary or the banging on the wall:-)) R:> Well, I appreciate it. I'll keep making noise and hope to eventually reach the doorway. ... S: :-). Thanks to you (and also Robert A) for all the good-humoured discussion in spite of the noise some of us make too. Metta, Sarah ========= #96627 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Mar 18, 2009 3:23 pm Subject: Re: Are KS Folks Less Intelligent Than Monkeys? I Hope Not. jonoabb Dear Ven Dhammanando Many thanks for coming in on this thread, and for the very informative comments. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dhammanando Bhikkhu" wrote: > > Hi Jon, > > > 2. The passage you translate as "the monk goes to the forest > > or to the root of the tree or to a quiet building" -- i.e., > > using the present tense "goes" -- is more usually translated > > using the past participle "gone", which may carry a > > different connotation. What is the basis in the Pali for > > "goes", as opposed to "gone"? > > "Gone" would be a more literal rendering of "gata". However, I don't think we > should read this as having a different connotation to "goes". It's just that > this is how a narrative of successive actions gets phrased in Pali. I understand the point you are making, and do not disagree that a series of successive actions is being described. What I had in mind, however, was the broader context of how this series of actions relates to what follows in the sutta, namley the passage that begins "Breathing in long, he understands I breathe in long" (roughly, from memory). To my understanding, the passage containing the series of actions is in the nature of a "case where" description. So taking the literal translation you give below ... "Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu, having gone to a forest or having gone to the root of a tree or having gone to an empty building, sits down, having folded his legs, having set his body upright, having established mindfulness in front of him." ... I read this as describing a monk who is leading a life devoted to the development of samatha and of already well establisehd mindfulness. So only such a person would have the capability to understand, breathing in long, that he breathes in long. I don't know if I've explained this clearly. This post is somewhat rushed, as I am at Hong Kong airport and due to board a flight. Will try to follow up after my arrival in Fiji. Thanks again for the comments. Respectfully Jon PS I was sorry to hear about your hospitalisation in January, and hope you have returned to good health. > Unlike in English, where a sequence of events will be indicated by a series of > finite verbs (e.g., "she leaves her home, drives to town, parks her car, enters > the supermarket, and buys a frozen pizza"), in Pali the convention is to > indicate the sequence with a series of past participles or absolutives (or > both), with only the very last action being shown by an active finite verb: > "Having left her home, having driven to town, having parked her car, having > entered the supermarket, she buys a frozen pizza." > > An example from the Baahiya Sutta: > > "te bhikkhuu bhagavato pa.tissutvaa, baahiyassa daaruciiriyassa sariiraka.m > ma~ncaka.m aaropetvaa, niiharitvaa, jhaapetvaa, thuupa~ncassa katvaa, yena > bhagavaa tenupasa`nkami.msu; upasa`nkamitvaa bhagavanta.m abhivaadetvaa > ekamanta.m nisiidi.msu" > > A very literal translation: > > "Those bhikkhus, having been instructed by the Blessed One, having placed the > remains of Baahiya of the Bark-garment on a litter, having carried it away, > having cremated it, having made a stupa for it, approached to where the Blessed > One was. Having approached, having bowed to the Blessed One, they sat down at > one side." > > But as such a rendering sounds odd in English, most translators will use > present participles and/or finite verbs rather than rendering all the > absolutives and past participles literally. > > Thanissaro: > > "After placing Bahiya's body on a litter, carrying it off, cremating it, and > building him a memorial, they went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having > bowed down to him, sat to one side." > > Ireland: > > "Taking Bahiya's body, they put it upon a litter, carried it away and burnt it, > and made a stupa for it. Then they went to the Lord, prostrated themselves, and > sat down to one side." > > > Similarly with the Satipa.t.thaana Sutta, the passage we are discussing reads: > > "idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu ara~n~na-GATO vaa, rukkhamuulaGATO vaa, > su~n~naagaaraGATO vaa, nisiidati, palla`nka.m AABHUJITVAA, uju.m kaaya.m > PA.NIDHAAYA, parimukha.m sati.m UPA.T.THAPETVAA." > > The only finite verb in this passage is nisiidati ("sits down"). 'Aabhujitvaa' > and 'upa.t.thapetvaa' are absolutives, and 'gato' and 'pa.nidhaaya' are past > participles, which in this sentence perform the same function as an absolutive. > And so a literal rendering would be: > > "Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu, having gone to a forest or having gone to the root > of a tree or having gone to an empty building, sits down, having folded his > legs, having set his body upright, having established mindfulness in front of > him." > > Best wishes, > Dhammanando #96628 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Mar 18, 2009 4:20 pm Subject: Ann's Questions, 2. nilovg Daer Ann and friends, Ann: There can be the experience of hardness with pa~n~naa or without pa~n~naa. When pa~n~naa is beginning to develop it knows that there is just a characteristic of a reality. Kh S: Hardness is usually experienced by citta without awareness, but when citta is accompanied by pa~n~naa it is different. Hardness is hardness as before, but pa~n~naa begins to see that it is just a reality. No thing is there, only that reality. There is no world, there are no people, no things. Hardness cannot be known when there is no experience of it. The difference between the experience and what is experienced should be known. Who is there, what is there? There are just different realities that can be experienced through six doorways. Ann: Slowly, slowly sati and pa~n~naa will grow. Kh S: When someone who does not listen to the Dhamma, touches hardness, he has the idea of I all the time, even if there is hardness and there is the experience of it. When there is understanding, even intellectual understanding, there is a beginning of its development at that very moment. It knows that there is a characteristic of a reality. Later on when pa~n~naa has been developed more, it will realize the arising and falling away of realities. ------- Ann: What is pa.tipatti? Kh S: What we call satipa.t.thaana is pa.tipatti. It is the understanding of a characteristic of reality as it is, different from thinking about it. There is seeing, hearing, touching hardness, but no understanding of them. There can only be understanding of them when awareness arises, and this is not merely thinking. ------- Ann: What is the difference between a moment with sati and a moment without sati? ------ Kh S: Hearing the Dhamma and understanding can condition the arising of a moment of direct awareness. Sati can be aware of realities such as seeing, touching, very naturally, before one can prepare for it or think about it. Sati is as natural as seeing or hearing. It is aware of a characteristic . There may be very weak pa~n~naa that just knows the difference between a moment of sati and a moment without sati. You do not have to ask anybody else when pa~n~naa arises. ******* Nina. #96629 From: "Robert" Date: Thu Mar 19, 2009 2:35 am Subject: Re: truth and prepared seats avalo1968 Hello again Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott" wrote: > > R: "...I can illustrate best what it means to me by suggesting an experiment for you...: take a few quiet breaths, and then see if you can shift your attention from the content of your thought...If the mind state you see is unskillful, see if you might be able to substitute one more skillful in its place. See how your reactivity can shift - body sensations, feelings, and thoughts - with the shift in the mind state and get to know your own reactivity and if perhaps there are some fixed views and story lines playing out here. At this point you just might find things opening up and relaxing, you might have a sensation you are seeing things a little more clearly. At that point you will know what I mean by 'openness and spaciousness'." > > Scott: To me, this is not what I would call 'mindfulness'. Do you consider this to be so? If we differ, can we discuss this? > > From the start I have a problem with how ordinary thinking - which is what you are suggesting be done - is Dhamma. I don't see that the above differs from any generic relaxation or cognitive exercise and don't think it represents what a Buddha would teach - anyone can (and has) come up with this. I'd ask you, if you think that this is more than ordinary relaxation and thinking, to show how this is the case, should you wish to discuss. Secondly, I have a problem with the idea that one can simply will all this into being. Again, how is this not just thinking about things - which anyone can tell anyone else to do. > Hmmm... here is what I suggested: "If the mind state you see is unskillful, see if you might be able to substitute one more skillful in its place." Here is what the Buddha suggested: "When evil unskillful thoughts connected with desire, hate, and delusion arise in a bhikkhu through reflection on an adventitious object, he should, (in order to get rid of that), reflect on a different object which is connected with skill. Then the evil unskillful thoughts are eliminated; they disappear. By their elimination, the mind stands firm, settles down, becomes unified and concentrated, just within (his subject of meditation)." MN 20 I hope you will cut the Buddha a bit of slack if he occasionally wants to suggest a "generic relaxation exercise". These things do work, you know. > Scott: I'd wonder about the terms in the above: 'attention', 'content of your thought', 'reactivity', 'body sensations', 'feelings', 'thoughts', 'mind state', 'fixed views', 'story lines', 'opening up', 'sensation you are seeing things a little more clearly...' - are there correlates in the Dhamma for these terms? In other words, what are these in terms of dhammas or states, either ruuupa or citta or mental factors (cetasikas)? If they are realities then they can be known - just not by merely thinking about them. I'm not suggesting that thinking about kusala and akusala, for example, is not of use, I'm suggesting it is not 'mindfulness'. > That is fine. The question I am interested in is if techniques like these are of use, and I believe they are. > R: "...What if I have been wrong all these many years? Well, then I have been wrong...I feel like I have gained much from the years I have been working with trying to understand these teachings..." > > Scott: Can it be examined? > > R: "I will work to keep my future posts as free of pseudo-Buddhism as I can." > > Scott: ;-) You've missed my point, perhaps. Can we discuss? > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > What I do is examined every day by reflecting on how I am doing in not causing harm and perhaps doing some good. Thank you for the discussion Scott, but I don't believe there is much more we can profitably cover at this time. As I said at the outset, I am determined not to discuss "doing or not doing" and that specifically includes "whether dhammas can be controlled" and all those other issues that have been flogged so regularly at DSG. I won't discuss those issues, not because I don't think they are important, but simply because I have nothing intelligent or useful to add to that discussion. I hope you won't think that, if I have responded to you sometimes with a certain amount of levity it means I don't take seriously what you say, because I do. I respect your knowledge and learning in the Dhamma, and wish you well in your study. Regards, Robert A. #96630 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Thu Mar 19, 2009 3:14 am Subject: [dsg] Re: effort. epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > > Hi Rob Ep, > > [Jon's at the airport eating some noodles as he waits for his flight (first of three flights) to Fiji. I'm glad to have the distraction as suddenly the flat seems very empty. One can feel sad one moment and then discuss the Dhamma with a friend, like Alex, and completely forget about the sad story:-)] Melanie has taken such trips before; makes clinging very obvious when she is away. :-))) > > --- On Wed, 18/3/09, Robert Epstein wrote: > >> S: The other way round. Panna (also an impermanent dhamma) realizes impermanent cittas and other dhamma for what they are. So panna can understand the characteristic of panna, just as it can understand the characteristic of any other dhamma. > > R:> So does panna have consciousness? > ... > S: The citta and accompanying cetasikas all experience (are 'conscious' of) the object. > ... > S: They all have characteristics 'in their own right', but cetasikas can never arise without a citta. In the same way, a citta can never arise without at least seven cetasikas. They condition each other by conascence condition. For example, viriya(effort) is always viriya, but the viriya which accompanies a kusala citta is different from the viriya which accompanies an akusala citta, affected by the nature of the other cetasikas and the citta and in turn having its effect on them. > > Please let me know if this isn't clear as I think it's an important point to clarify. > **** It is clear that each cetasika contributes a particular function to the citta, and this would make sense if it is the citta seeing through these functions, experiencing through them. But with all of them partaking of an aspectof the experience 'in their own right,' it is hard to avoid the sense that they are being given the status of a kind of entity as "experiencers." Since the point of arising and falling away consciousness is that it has no personhood or substantiality, it seems opposite to this to say that these elements each have a particular experience. They seem to be given a kind of substantiality by this, even though they are only momentary. > > S: Each generation thinks it discovers something new or wakes-up in some way....but it's all been said and done for aeons. I agree that it's amazing how contemporary some of the ancient texts sound. > > >Yes, it sort of collapses the concept of time, doesn't it. > ... > S: That's one way of putting it. Isn't it why the truths in the Buddha's teachings are just as valid now as when he spoke? Yes, much of it seems very immediate. Best, Robert E. - - - - - - - #96631 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Thu Mar 19, 2009 3:22 am Subject: [dsg] Does This Come From K.Sujin:2? Re: K.Sujin on meditation epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > > Hi Rob Ep, > > --- On Wed, 18/3/09, Robert Epstein wrote: > R:>I see. The Dhamma is really the underlying condition for wisdom to arise; otherwise, it can't at all? > ... > S: Yes, hearing and carefully considering the Dhamma. Without a Buddha having taught the Dhamma, no chance of enlightenment. > ... > ... > > >>S: I think that as soon as we begin to differentiate between the different kinds of situation you suggest (sitting, non-distracted) as being more conducive, it indicates a lack of confidence in the power of panna and sati to arise anytime, any place. > > R:> Well, in my apparently unschooled view, it makes more sense to stoke the fire than let it do whatever it will do. > .... > S: The question is: who or what does the stoking? wrong view? ;-) > ... > > >>S: If I'm distracted now by Jon calling out to me, what's the use of thinking that less distraction or sitting quietly would be more useful to the Path? It would just be attachment to such situations masquerading as some kind of wisdom, I think. It all comes back to the present moment. > > R:> Well I know we have this little divide on this subject. My view would be to look a the distraction if possible and see what is happening - attachment? sensory activity, etc. as it is occurring, and also to have a nice sitting session besides, where I can examine things more closely. > ... > S: Well we might find that lobha, dosa and moha are pretty well distracting us all the time and never get up from that sitting session:-). or see them and reveal what is happening. why not? no one seems to wat to give credit to the potential of attentiveness revealing something. there's no self either way, so it doesn't seem to me that it hurts, and that it can be the occasion for insight. if one has identified the wrong view of self, why cannot one work the skill of observation and experiencing closely what is happening? > ... > >>S: Yoniso manasikara, on the other hand occurs so quickly with the javana process following moments of seeing or hearing or other sense-door experiences. There isn't time for it to 'make space', 'concentrate on an object', take the telephone of the hook or silence the family! Right understanding of realities can arise at any time whatsoever - no 'situation' or kind of dhamma arising is a hindrance in that any reality can be the object. > > R:> I guess you do have more confidence of these moments arising on their own. I don't. I see it as anything that needs to be practiced - what you spend time on or practice is what you get skilled about. > ... > S: That last comment is correct - that's why we need to be sure that it is the 'right' practice we're getting skilled in. yes, well, if I am riding a bicycle I can tell if I fall off or if I am gliding along. The idea that delusion in Buddhism is so mysterious and hard to identify seems only true if one is very much in denial. I can catch egoic tendencies rising up many times a day. I don't sit around thinking I'm enlightened. > ... > R:>The reason that monks devote their lives to a program of study and meditation is because they want to realize the awakened state more quickly. That seems to accord with the Buddha's plan. > ... > S: He also taught that dhammas are anatta and conditioned. He taught that no one could bring about any state by wishing or wanting to become enlightened. I think he taught a path of right understanding of dhammas. And he taught that meditation can accelerate our understanding. > ... > >> S: Anytime for either the summary or the banging on the wall:-)) > > R:> Well, I appreciate it. I'll keep making noise and hope to eventually reach the doorway. > ... > S: :-). Thanks to you (and also Robert A) for all the good-humoured discussion in spite of the noise some of us make too. It's not bad to argue a little if one is in good company. :) Best, Robert E. - - - - - - - - - #96632 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Mar 19, 2009 6:43 am Subject: The Secluded Place. Discussions with Khun Sujin in Bangkok, 1976 (1) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, Part 1 Meditation – Doing Something as support for satipa.t.thaana? "The Direct Support is to be aware immediately." ******* Ven Dhammadharo: What happens in the case of people who do not have any accumulations for being aware and the suggestion has been made that surely it must be necessary for them to - they can't be aware, so they must do something else – they must meditate, say, to gain a lot of merit, so that in a later life they'll be able to be aware better or maybe even later in this life it'll be easier because now our minds are very – I don't know how to phrase it... *** Jill: When we say that different people have different accumulations for things - for example, Sariputta was the foremost in wisdom, Mogallana was the foremost in magical powers and so on, Ananda was the foremost in faith, in devotion to the Buddha - some think they don't have enough accumulations for developing sati and pa~n~naa and think that they should *do* something else in the meantime to accrue merit - for example, for samatha, to build up support of sati - so that later on in this life, or maybe in another life, they will have enough accumulations… *** Tony: Kusala of all forms supports sati and is very, very important - anything kusala. And there aren't always opportunities for kusala, so aren't we missing out on opportunities for kusala by not practising samatha meditation, even if the aim in the samatha meditation when we practise it [isn't] to reacher higher skills of jhaana but to try to develop mahaa-kusala cittas which occur before access concentration even. *** Sujin : One develops samatha according to one's accumulations, OK? If there is no accumulation for samatha, that person cannot practice samatha at all, is that right? But what's the purpose of practising samatha at that very moment? *** Tony: At that very moment, he may just have the intention to concentrate on the object, but the general intention may be to develop mahaa-kusala citta. *** Sujin: Is that the intention for practising samatha? So [it's] nothing to do with vipassanaa, right understanding of [the] reality which appears, according to their intention. *** Tony: What about if they use the kusala as a support for the development of sati, the same as we give and encourage giving all the time too because kusala supports. Aren't we perhaps missing out on opportunities for mahaa-kusala cittas by not doing samatha meditation? *** Sujin: But you see, if the purpose is to develop right understanding, one does not stop giving or [not have] siila or samatha by way of being tranquil temporarily. [If] by sitting and trying for hours to have mahaa-kusala cittas in order to support vipassanaa, when [will it develop]? Just be aware immediately is the best support for right understanding, not 'the long moment' of samatha. ****** [to be contd] Metta, Sarah ======== #96633 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Mar 19, 2009 8:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Secluded Place. Discussions with Khun Sujin in Bangkok, 1976 (2) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, Part 2 Eliminating Akusala "Ten hours that you try to have some kusala to support satipa.t.thaana [or] one or two or three or ten moments of awareness - which is better?” **** Sujin: So those who have right understanding of vipassanaa, do not wish to have akusala, but [they] cannot help having akusala. [However] there can be awareness of akusala. They [also] know that they cannot help having kusala and sati can be aware of kusala cittas also. So they understand the conditions for each moment of kusala and akusala because sati can be aware of akusala [and kusala] and see [them] as not-self, seeing the accumulations in detail. Otherwise one cannot eliminate the idea of self from the moment when akusala arises or when kusala arises. For example, lobha is akusala, dosa is akusala, moha is akusala. When one is angry, at that moment it's akusala and sati sees akusala should be eliminated. By seeing [that] akusala should be eliminated, it can condition mettaa, loving-kindness, at that moment instead of anger automatically. [However], sati can arise and see mettaa as only naama. That person does not have [the] intention to develop more or '[a] long time of mettaa for hours' instead of knowing that mettaa is not self. So the best support is to be aware immediately - not to have [the] intention to use other things to support vipassanaa or satipa.t.thaana. Ten hours that you try to have some kusala to support satipa.t.thaana [or] one or two or three or ten moments of awareness - which is better? The direct suppport is to be aware immediately, not just trying the other way around to seek support without awareness of [the] reality which appears. If it's tranquil at that moment, it can be the object of awareness with detachment, not with attachment to tranquillity in order to have it as [a] support for satipa.t.thaana. ********************** [to be contd] Metta, Sarah ===== #96634 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Mar 19, 2009 8:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Secluded Place. Discussions with Khun Sujin in Bangkok, 1976 (1) nilovg Dear Sarah, thank you for these extracts, refreshing. And so actual, people wondering whether they should 'do' something. From an old tape? Nina. Op 19-mrt-2009, om 7:43 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > Ven Dhammadharo: What happens in the case of people who do not have > any accumulations for being aware and the suggestion has been made > that surely it must be necessary for them to - they can't be aware, > so they must do something else #96635 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Mar 19, 2009 8:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Secluded Place. Discussions with Khun Sujin in Bangkok, 1976 (1) sarahprocter... Dear Nina, --- On Thu, 19/3/09, Nina van Gorkom wrote: >thank you for these extracts, refreshing. And so actual, people wondering whether they should 'do' something. From an old tape? ... S: Yes, it's going to be quire a long series. Just one cassette that we almost threw out because it was broken and we couldn't find anywhere to repair it. Anyway, we got it fixed in Bangkok and it's the one I mentioned I'd transcribe parts from if I didn't go to Fiji this time. Lots of good material to come...(Very poor quality, so I have to improvise a little). Many other familiar names present - Jonothan, Peter S, Ven Guttasila, Jill, Nina W, Vince... Metta, Sarah ========= #96636 From: "Scott" Date: Thu Mar 19, 2009 12:10 pm Subject: Re: truth and prepared seats scottduncan2 Dear Robert A, I realise you've signed off, but, regarding: R: "Hmmm... here is what I suggested: 'If the mind state you see is unskillful, see if you might be able to substitute one more skillful in its place.' Here is what the Buddha suggested: "When evil unskillful thoughts connected with desire, hate, and delusion arise in a bhikkhu through reflection on an adventitious object, he should, (in order to get rid of that), reflect on a different object which is connected with skill. Then the evil unskillful thoughts are eliminated; they disappear. By their elimination, the mind stands firm, settles down, becomes unified and concentrated, just within (his subject of meditation)." MN 20 Bhs. ~Naa.namoli/Bodhi (S: Whose is the translation above?): Vitakkasa.n.thaanasutta.m The Removal of Distracting Thoughts "Here, bhikkhus, when a bhikkhu is giving attention to some sign, and owing to that sign there arises in him evil unwholesome thoughts connected with desire, with hate, and with delusion, then he should give attention to some other sign connected to that which is wholesome. When he gives attention to some other sign connected with what is wholesome, then any evil unwholesome thoughts connected with desire, with hate, and with delusion are abandoned in him and subside. With the abandoning of them his mind becomes steadied internally, quieted, brought to singleness" Adhicittamanuyuttena, bhikkhave, bhikkhunaa pa~nca nimittaani kaalena kaala.m manasi kaatabbaani. Katamaani pa~nca? Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhuno ya.m nimitta.m aagamma ya.m nimitta.m manasikaroto uppajjanti paapakaa akusalaa vitakkaa chanduupasa.mhitaapi dosuupasa.mhitaapi mohuupasa.mhitaapi, tena, bhikkhave, bhikkhunaa tamhaa nimittaa a~n~na.m nimitta.m manasi kaatabba.m kusaluupasa.mhita.m. Tassa tamhaa nimittaa a~n~na.m nimitta.m manasikaroto kusaluupasa.mhita.m ye paapakaa akusalaa vitakkaa chanduupasa.mhitaapi dosuupasa.mhitaapi mohuupasa.mhitaapi te pahiiyanti te abbhattha.m gacchanti. Tesa.m pahaanaa ajjhattameva citta.m santi.t.thati sannisiidati ekodi hoti [ekodibhoti (syaa. ka.)] samaadhiyati. R: "I hope you will cut the Buddha a bit of slack if he occasionally wants to suggest a 'generic relaxation exercise'. These things do work, you know." Scott: The sutta begins with the Buddha saying: 'Bhikkhus, when a bhikkhu is pursuing the higher mind, from time to time he should give attention to five signs...' There is much more in the rest of the sutta. These 'things', as you put it, are not subject to being switched on and off, such that they 'work'. Given the right conditions, dhammas function according to characteristic. Here are the relevant commentarial passages: "MA: The higher mind (adhicitta) is the mind of the eight meditative attainments used as a basis for insight; it is called 'higher mind' because it is higher than the ordinary (wholesome) mind of the ten wholesome courses of action. The five 'signs' (nimitta) may be understood as practical methods for removing the distracting thoughts. They should be resorted to only when the distractions become persistent or obtrusive; at other times the meditator should remain with his primary subject of meditation." "MA: When thoughts of sensual desire arise, directed towards living beings, the 'other sign' is the meditation on foulness...; when the thoughts are directed to inanimate things, the 'other sign' is attention to impermanence. When thoughts of hate arise directed towards living beings, the 'other sign' is the meditation on lovingkindness; when they are directed to inanimate things, the 'other sign' is attention to the elements...The remedy for thoughts connected with delusion is living under a teacher, studying the Dhamma, inquiring into its meaning, listening to the Dhamma, and inquiring into causes." Scott: As you can see, the above was not a generic relaxation exercise but was suggested as a way of dealing cognitively with distractions which were condition for the non-arising of jhaana. As such, it seems to me, it was directed to a certain audience. And clearly this is not to be misunderstood to refer to a person directing thoughts but to the arising of vitakka - an impersonal dhamma - given the right conditions. Anatta again. I'd hazard that you, like me, are not one who is capable of jhaana. Since the message was given to serve as condition to those who, by hearing, could benefit, it is clear to me that you've taken it out of context and, one, applied it to yourself as an instruction, and, two, thought to suggest it to me, as if you understood it and could actually teach someone about it. And, as is common, you assume that you know what the Buddha meant, giving you license to 'teach' me something. Your written tone of voice suggests that you believe that you know you are right. I always check into what someone is trying to 'teach' me. The Dhamma is the only teacher now. And that is the moment-to-moment. In my last response to you I elided the portions of the message which were meant to chastise me for what you considered to be unwholesome consciousness. The most recent post was also an attempt to teach me something. I've been through this before with others, and not just on this list. I've learned to always check. And you've got it wrong, Robert. I wish you could see that. I also wish people wouldn't try to teach others when they themselves are in the dark. Look, I'm doing it now. If you find this reply didactic, then maybe *you'll* learn something, given conditions and all. And if you think the same thing about me as I do about you, then you'd be correct. I'm no one's teacher, that's for sure. R: "...The question I am interested in is if techniques like these are of use, and I believe they are." Scott: In the absence of true impersonal development of kusala, the self always thinks of techniques, soothing itself with dreams of it's great skill and false wholesomeness. R: "Thank you for the discussion Scott, but I don't believe there is much more we can profitably cover at this time. As I said at the outset, I am determined not to discuss 'doing or not doing' and that specifically includes 'whether dhammas can be controlled' and all those other issues that have been flogged so regularly at DSG. I won't discuss those issues, not because I don't think they are important, but simply because I have nothing intelligent or useful to add to that discussion." Scott: You think dhammas can be controlled. This is clear. You don't discuss because you don't agree that dhammas cannot be controlled. Without such a soothing belief, one is left to experience the almost constant flow of akusala. Usually this experience, at least for me, is condition for even more akusala as conceit creates thoughts of how bad I am and how slow I am, etc. It is conceit as well to think to teach someone something because one knows better. It is conceit to think we are in the same boat. It would be nice if equanimity could arise - but that is just desire. R: "I hope you won't think that, if I have responded to you sometimes with a certain amount of levity it means I don't take seriously what you say, because I do. I respect your knowledge and learning in the Dhamma, and wish you well in your study." Scott: I wish you wouldn't take me or what I say seriously. The Dhamma is the teacher. Sincerely, Scott. #96637 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Mar 19, 2009 8:25 am Subject: Disappointed in Ven Thich Nhat Hanh upasaka_howard Hi, all - (It seems that I have apparently escaped from computer bardo! ;-) Recently I've been reading a book by the Vietnamese monk Thich Nhat Hanh, for whom I've long had much respect (and still do) because of his highly valuing the Pali suttas as the word of the Buddha and also because of his great emphasis on anapanasati and ongoing mindfulness practice. This book of the venerable's, however, a discussion of the Lotus Sutra, often called "The Lotus of the True Dharma (or Law)," is very disappointing to me. As you may know, much of early Mahayana, including the Perfection of Wisdom sutras, and the writings of Nagarjuna & his main followers and also the psychological, Abhidharmically-based works of Vasubandhu, has great appeal to me. However, a good part of later Mahayana doctrine, holds no interest for me, and that includes elements of the Lotus Sutra that are closer to a cross between avatar-centered Hinduism and a kind of mystical Christianity. What I find most distasteful is Ven TNH's reporting with approval the Lotus Sutra's painting the Buddha not as a being who had been a man who discovered the breadth and depth of dukkha, left his life of luxury in search of release from dukkha, became a renunciant, achieved full awakening, and reintroduced the Dhamma into a world empty of it, but, instead, as a cosmic being/reality who lives in infinite time and space, and who, as a "skillful means," magically appears in various worlds and realms again and again, putting on a mere show, a fancy, sleight-of-hand act, of being a worldling who becomes a historical Buddha. This is very close to painting the Buddha as a cosmic Godhead who incarnates (or appears to incarnate), playing kindly pretend games with his "children". This is SO far from the Buddhadhamma, IMO, as to be an outrageously gross perversion of it. With metta, Howard (From the Diamond Sutra) #96638 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Mar 19, 2009 1:10 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] truth and prepared seats sarahprocter... Hi Pt, --- On Wed, 18/3/09, ptaus1 wrote: >I'm usually in Sydney when in Australia. ... S: Perhaps we'll catch up with you there one day.... .... >I'll be back soon, have just finished reading Nina's book on rupas, and now I want to go once more through her Conditions before I start posting questions. ... S: I'll look forward to seeing them... Metta, Sarah ======== #96639 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Mar 19, 2009 1:23 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Does This Come From K.Sujin:2? Re: K.Sujin on meditation sarahprocter... Hi Rob Ep, --- On Thu, 19/3/09, Robert Epstein wrote: > R:> Well, in my apparently unschooled view, it makes more sense to stoke the fire than let it do whatever it will do. > .... > S: The question is: who or what does the stoking? R:> wrong view? ;-) ... S: Well, at least you know the right answer, even if you don't believe it. :-) ..... >> S: Well we might find that lobha, dosa and moha are pretty well distracting us all the time and never get up from that sitting session:-). R:> or see them and reveal what is happening. why not? ... S: Why not now? Why wait? ... R:> no one seems to wat to give credit to the potential of attentiveness revealing something. there's no self either way, so it doesn't seem to me that it hurts, and that it can be the occasion for insight. ... S: Any occasion can be 'the occasion'. [I'll look forward to any of your comments on the series I'm posting on 'The Secluded Place'!] ... R:> if one has identified the wrong view of self, why cannot one work the skill of observation and experiencing closely what is happening? ... S: Because an aspect of that 'wrong view of self' is that 'one can work the skill of observation...', when really there are just different conditioned dhammas. Sati arises or it doesn't arise, but no self can work it:). ... > R:> I guess you do have more confidence of these moments arising on their own. I don't. I see it as anything that needs to be practiced - what you spend time on or practice is what you get skilled about. > ... > S: That last comment is correct - that's why we need to be sure that it is the 'right' practice we're getting skilled in. R:> yes, well, if I am riding a bicycle I can tell if I fall off or if I am gliding along. The idea that delusion in Buddhism is so mysterious and hard to identify seems only true if one is very much in denial. I can catch egoic tendencies rising up many times a day. I don't sit around thinking I'm enlightened. ... S: :-). I think there are more and more subtle degrees of delusion, however. Only a sotapanna has eradicated wrong view and only an arahat has eradicated ignorance. ... >>S:.... I think he taught a path of right understanding of dhammas. ... R:> And he taught that meditation can accelerate our understanding. ... S: It depends what we understand by 'meditation'. If we are referring to 'bhaavanaa', then there are two kinds - samatha and vipassanaa bhaavanaa - the development of calm or tranquillity and the development of insight. .... R:> It's not bad to argue a little if one is in good company. :) ... S: :) I agree. ... Metta, Sarah ========= #96640 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Mar 19, 2009 1:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: effort. sarahprocter... Hi Rob Ep (& Howard), --- On Thu, 19/3/09, Robert Epstein wrote: >>S: [Jon's at the airport ..... One can feel sad one moment and then discuss the Dhamma with a friend, like Alex, and completely forget about the sad story:-)] R:> Melanie has taken such trips before; makes clinging very obvious when she is away. :-))) ... S: Yes, even more glaringly obvious than when they're around :-))) At least I no know Jon arrived safely plus all his luggage after his three flights. Knowing my clinging, he's very good at contacting me on arrival. .... R:> It is clear that each cetasika contributes a particular function to the citta, and this would make sense if it is the citta seeing through these functions, experiencing through them. But with all of them partaking of an aspectof the experience 'in their own right,' it is hard to avoid the sense that they are being given the status of a kind of entity as "experiencers. " ... S: Well, all cittas and cetasikas are namas (as opposed to rupas) and as such do experience objects. The cetasikas experience the same object as the citta they arise with, of course. They are impermanent elements or dhammas (realities). I don't have a problem with entities. The main point to appreciate is that they are anatta - there is no self or 'thing' as we are used to thinking. ... R:> Since the point of arising and falling away consciousness is that it has no personhood or substantiality, it seems opposite to this to say that these elements each have a particular experience. They seem to be given a kind of substantiality by this, even though they are only momentary. ... S: When we (or the texts, rather) say there is no core or substantiality, it means there is no atta, no thing, such as a person or computer involved. The impermanent dhammas are not 'nothings', however - they are namas or rupas with characteristics and functions. Take seeing consciousness as an example. It is different from hearing and it is different from visible object. It is the nama which sees visible object. The vedana (feeling) which accompanies it, 'tastes' the visible object. Again, vedana is anatta, but it is not 'nothing', because it's an element. ... > S: That's one way of putting it. Isn't it why the truths in the Buddha's teachings are just as valid now as when he spoke? R:>Yes, much of it seems very immediate. ... S: I'm glad we agree on all this side of things. I was afraid you were going to follow a line I had many discussions with Dan about - whether the Truths could be realised without a Buddha. Metta, Sarah ======== #96641 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Mar 19, 2009 1:45 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] patience, blood, blood. sarahprocter... Dear Nina & Pt, --- On Sat, 14/3/09, Nina van Gorkom wrote: >But when it is time for kamma to produce unpleasant result, we are not safe anywhere: not in the sky, not in the water, nowhere. But we can always be safe with pa~n~naa. .... S: A good reminder! I remember K.Sujin saying just the same to friends who'd been concerned about visiting Bangkok just after some bomb scares. We always forget about kamma whilst we take all sorts of (conventional)precautions to avoid danger. ... >I say it, but to apply it is another matter. If, I say if, pa~n~naa is more developed and by insight the ownership of kamma has been penetrated, it means that we shall have more endurance to accept any kind of vipaaka. But before we are that far, it takes time. Aeons of ignorance have been accumulated, as Scott just reminded us. ... S: Very true. Still, even understanding intellectually what kamma and vipaaka are in more detail can be a very helpful reminder and condition for more understanding and equanimity when subject to the various worldly conditions. Metta, Sarah ========== #96642 From: "szmicio" Date: Thu Mar 19, 2009 1:58 pm Subject: Re: The Secluded Place. Discussions with Khun Sujin in Bangkok, 1976 (2) szmicio > So the best support is to be aware immediately - not to have [the] intention to use other things to support vipassanaa or satipa.t.thaana. Ten hours that you try to have some kusala to support satipa.t.thaana [or] one or two or three or ten moments of awareness - which is better? L: Lobha is very tricky ;> My best wishes Lukas #96643 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Mar 19, 2009 2:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] truth and prepared seats nilovg Dear pt and Lukas, Op 19-mrt-2009, om 14:10 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: quotes pt: > I'll be back soon, have just finished reading Nina's book on rupas, > and now I want to go once more through her Conditions before I > start posting questions. ------- N: That reminds me. Lukas asked me to especially speak about condiitons related to daily life and I started with this, but did not finish, lack of time. As you, pt, has questions on the different chapters I shall think of Lukas' request. Lukas could remind me again what I have to do? Nina. #96644 From: "Robert" Date: Thu Mar 19, 2009 2:45 pm Subject: Re: truth and prepared seats avalo1968 Hello Scott, No, I don't presume to teach you or anyone. If you look back several messages in this chain, you will see that in fact I preferred not to get into this discussion at all with you, but you asked me repeatedly "can we discuss?", so I tried to accommodate your request. Sorry if you were offended by what I wrote - the offense was not intentional - although offense does seem to happen often when I post at DSG, so I should learn from that and try to avoid it in the future. I will try to make my posts less offensive if I post again at DSG. Best wishes, Robert A. #96645 From: "Alex" Date: Thu Mar 19, 2009 3:12 pm Subject: Re: Nibbana is NOT THE ALL> truth_aerator Dear Scott, (and all), > "Scott" wrote: > > Dear Sarah (and Alex) > > Regarding: > > S: "Nibbana is included in the 'All' for those who have experienced >it. 'All' means 'All'! It is included in Dhammaayatana." > >A: "For those who experienced Nibbana in the all, have not >experienced Nibbana of the Buddha...It exists like extinguished >flame does NOT exist." > > Scott: Pa.tisambhidaamagga I : > >"It is to be directly known that despair is formations and >non-despair is nibbaana." 22 Let us be clear that absence (and no re-occurance) of everything, is *not* a "thing" . Extinguished flame does *not* exist as a noun. Final nibbana is non-despair because there is NOTHING THERE that is or could be painful, stressful or fearful. >"...Nibbaana which merges in the deathless, through its meaning of >ending, is to be directly known." 44 Again, let us not reify total absentness ( final Nibbana). Re: "Direct Knowledge" In what way does an Arahant know cessation of perception & feelings? Ultimately, final parinibbana cannot be known as it occurs (or when it happens), as it isn't anything to be known as it happens with any sense base. It is the end of all knowing, doing OR being/becoming. With metta, Alex #96646 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Mar 19, 2009 3:38 pm Subject: Fwd: [dsg] Re: effort. sent again nilovg > Onderwerp: Antw.: [dsg] Re: effort. > > Dear Sarah and Rob Ep, (something happened, I send again) > your interesting discussion reminded me of what I heard on a > recording recently. > Op 19-mrt-2009, om 14:39 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > >> R:> Since the point of arising and falling away consciousness is >> that it has no personhood or substantiality, it seems opposite to >> this to say that these elements each have a particular experience. >> They seem to be given a kind of substantiality by this, even >> though they are only momentary. > ------- > N: Kh Sujin reminds us to understand that seeing, etc. are mere > dhammas. understanding how it can be non-self. The nature of dhamma is non- > self. It is not a matter of words but of understanding the reality > at this moment.This does not mean that we just copy the words: it > is non-self. Understand seeing, how does it come about? Conditioned > or at will? > This will prevent us from giving a substantiality to realities. She keeps on repeating: it is not a matter of words or names, attend to the characteristic now. That is the only way leading to more understanding. First it has to be realized that what appears now is only a dhamma. Later on more details of nama and rupa will be known. ------- Nina. #96647 From: "Scott" Date: Thu Mar 19, 2009 3:41 pm Subject: Re: truth and prepared seats scottduncan2 Dear Robert A, Regarding: R: "...Sorry if you were offended by what I wrote - the offense was not intentional - although offense does seem to happen often when I post at DSG, so I should learn from that and try to avoid it in the future. I will try to make my posts less offensive if I post again at DSG." Scott: Robert, there was no offense taken - it seems difficult to convince you of this. Just consider the content - the Dhamma - not the persons. And there is no need, in my opinion, to post less, or post differently, or go away and never post again. Sincerely, Scott. #96648 From: "Alex" Date: Thu Mar 19, 2009 3:51 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] control & doing truth_aerator Hi Sarah and all, > sarah abbott wrote: > > > Hi Alex, > > --- On Tue, 17/3/09, Alex wrote: > >> S: Atta, referring to 'himself', 'oneself', 'herself', etc is >probably the most common meaning in the texts. It's common, >conventional usage, Alex! > >A:> But don't the people on this board say that there is no even >conventional "self" which does this or that due to causes and >conditions, but *does* nevertheless. > .... > S: There is no self at all. There are only cittas, cetasikas and >rupas. So when the texts refer to 'oneself', 'himself' or whatever >else, it's just a convenient or common-language way of referring to >these cittas and cetasikas which are performing such deeds/taking >refuge or whatever else is being discussed. But conventionally Atta (as a conglomeration) of cittas and cetasikas performing function does exist. Otherwise it would be pointless to do anything (like getting up from the bed or eating food , or drinking water, or avoiding that car driving in your direction at 100 km/h) >We can talk in such a way with right or wrong understanding. I prefer to talk with right understanding. >The right understanding knows there are only dhammas regardless of >the language. The above can be used to justify anything, including that There is none else but Allah! Allah Akbar! All words in Buddha - Dhamma are about Him... I hope you got the point, Sarah. I don't believe that Buddha used special secret language that means not-x when Buddha says x. > >>S: PTS gives a footnote to say this was Makkhali Gosala's heresy. > > A:> Not just his. Some people also claim that nothing can be done, no control, (since there isn't anyone to do anything in the first place), etc etc. > > A:>You are going on a tangent in that quote. The topic of discussion isn't rebirth or kamma. The topic of discussion is the fact that there *IS* doing, and the doing that interests me, is to remove akusala and achieve akusala (in a sense of magga-phala) > .... > S: However you quoted from a sutta in which the serious wrong view >relates to wrong view about kamma....the belief that it makes no >difference what deeds are done as far as the results are concerned. That sutta was more than about lack of kamma. The sutta also dealt with no effort, no doing. > S: Some theorists will go to all sorts of lengths to prove that the >Buddha really taught an Atta as existing. Conventional Atta, has frequent references to conventiona it (attadipa, attadattha, etc) so it is true that it exists AND CAN DO THINGS which is why Buddha often talked in imperative verb mode as opposed to passive or causative-passive verb form. With metta, Alex #96649 From: "Scott" Date: Thu Mar 19, 2009 3:53 pm Subject: Re: Nibbana is NOT THE ALL> scottduncan2 Dear Alex, Regarding: A: "...Ultimately, final parinibbana cannot be known as it occurs (or when it happens), as it isn't anything to be known as it happens with any sense base. It is the end of all knowing, doing OR being/becoming." Scott: Sarah already pointed out your misunderstanding to you. Sincerely, Scott. #96650 From: "Alex" Date: Thu Mar 19, 2009 4:06 pm Subject: Re: Are KS Folks Less Intelligent Than Monkeys? I Hope Not. truth_aerator Hi Jon and all, >I understand the point you are making, and do not disagree that a >series of successive actions is being described. > >What I had in mind, however, was the broader context of how this >series of actions relates to what follows in the sutta, namley the >passage that begins "Breathing in long, he understands I breathe in >long" (roughly, from memory). > >To my understanding, the passage containing the series of actions is >in the nature of a "case where" description. So taking the literal >translation you give below ... First 2 steps of Anapanasati it has pajanati long/short breaths. pajanati = active present finite verb. "knows clearly" From 3rd step onwards we have: sikkhati = active present finite verb for "learns; trains oneself; practises." >"Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu, having gone to a forest or having gone >to the root of a tree or having gone to an empty building, sits >down, having folded his legs, having set his body upright, having >established mindfulness in front of him." > > ... I read this as describing a monk who is leading a life devoted >to the development of samatha In the sutta the Buddha clearly states that Anapanasati can develop satipatthana! "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is of great fruit, of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference to their culmination. The four frames of reference, when developed & pursued, bring the seven factors for awakening to their culmination. The seven factors for awakening, when developed & pursued, bring clear knowing & release to their culmination. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.118.than.html With best wishes, Alex #96651 From: "Alex" Date: Thu Mar 19, 2009 4:42 pm Subject: Re: The Secluded Place. Discussions with Khun Sujin in Bangkok, 1976 (1) truth_aerator Hi Sarah and all, >sarah abbott wrote: > Sujin : One develops samatha according to one's accumulations, OK? If person never practices samatha, then how and when will samatha accumulations ever arise? Similie: Lets say little child who is afraid to learn (and practice) to ride a bike because he hasn't practiced it yet (and thus has no skill). If he never tries, then he will never develop the skill and never be able to ride the bike! If satipatthana is "just being aware" without any "doing of Buddha's instructions" than animals would be awakened arahants. They don't have wrong views (they can't think clearly enough to form any wrong-view) and they certainly don't "misinterpretations" of satipatthana as "these actions have to be done, these actions have to be avoided". With metta, Alex #96652 From: "szmicio" Date: Thu Mar 19, 2009 6:18 pm Subject: Re: The Secluded Place. Discussions with Khun Sujin in Bangkok, 1976 (1) szmicio Dear Alex > >sarah abbott wrote: > > Sujin : One develops samatha according to one's accumulations, OK? > > If person never practices samatha, then how and when will samatha accumulations ever arise? > Similie: > Lets say little child who is afraid to learn (and practice) to ride a bike because he hasn't practiced it yet (and thus has no skill). If he never tries, then he will never develop the skill and never be able to ride the bike! L: right-effort is 'trying', not us. Right effort arises only on conditions. If that is not so, it's not right-effort. Alex, you have to look at paticcasamupada. There is just moha, not self. there is samsara-vatta, not life we think of. Look also at danda sutta. We can be reminded more and more about kusala in daily life, and right-effort can arise. That's how we ride this bike. but the act of riding is just daily life, here and now. > If satipatthana is "just being aware" without any "doing of Buddha's instructions" than animals would be awakened arahants. L: Enlightenment is more like end of moha, not any achivement. My best wishes Lukas #96653 From: "Robert" Date: Thu Mar 19, 2009 6:22 pm Subject: Re: truth and prepared seats avalo1968 Hello Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott" wrote: > > Scott: Robert, there was no offense taken - it seems difficult to convince you of this. Just consider the content - the Dhamma - not the persons. And there is no need, in my opinion, to post less, or post differently, or go away and never post again. > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > Glad to know no offense taken. It is difficult to convince me of a lot of things - have always been a little slow :-) Robert A. #96654 From: "Alex" Date: Thu Mar 19, 2009 6:56 pm Subject: Re: Nibbana is NOT THE ALL> truth_aerator >"Scott" wrote: > > Dear Alex, > > Regarding: > > A: "...Ultimately, final parinibbana cannot be known as it occurs >(or when it happens), as it isn't anything to be known as it >happens with any sense base. It is the end of all knowing, doing OR >being/becoming." > > Scott: Sarah already pointed out your misunderstanding to you. > > Sincerely, > > Scott. Dear Scott, Do you believe that something remains in the final parinibbana, that can perhaps "know" final parinibbana? With metta, Alex #96656 From: "Alex" Date: Thu Mar 19, 2009 9:30 pm Subject: Re: The Secluded Place. Discussions with Khun Sujin in Bangkok, 1976 (1).... truth_aerator Dear Lukas, Sarah, Scott and all, >In dhammastudygroup@..., "szmicio" wrote: > > Dear Alex > > > >sarah abbott wrote: > > > Sujin : One develops samatha according to one's accumulations, >OK? > > > > If person never practices samatha, then how and when will samatha >accumulations ever arise? > > Similie: > > Lets say little child who is afraid to learn (and practice) to >ride a bike because he hasn't practiced it yet (and thus has no >skill). If he never tries, then he will never develop the skill and >never be able to ride the bike! > >L: right-effort is 'trying', not us. Right effort arises only on >conditions. If that is not so, it's not right-effort. > Alex, you have to look at paticcasamupada. There is just moha, not >self. there is samsara-vatta, not life we think of. Why can't conventional self (which is fully conditioned) not be able to produce right-effort, strive at eradicating unskillful tendencies and cultivate the growth of skilful ones? What is attadipo, attadanta, attadattha, attagutta, attahetu, attahita, etc? The conditionality (determinism?) doesn't have to excluse the decision to strive rather than to do nothing and let the onslaught brought forth by defilements to come raining down. At the beginning stages it is "you" vs "them" : "Just as a strong man, seizing a weaker man by the head or the throat or the shoulders, would beat him down, constrain, and crush him; in the same way, if evil, unskillful thoughts imbued with desire, aversion or delusion still arise in the monk while he is attending to the relaxing of thought-fabrication with regard to those thoughts, then with his teeth clenched and his tongue pressed against the roof of his mouth he should beat down, constrain, and crush his mind with his awareness. As with his teeth clenched and his tongue pressed against the roof of his mouth he is beating down, constraining, and crushing his mind with his awareness, those evil, unskillful thoughts are abandoned and subside. With their abandoning, he steadies his mind right within, settles it, unifies it, and concentrates it." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.020.than.html With metta, Alex #96657 From: "colette" Date: Thu Mar 19, 2009 6:23 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] control & doing ksheri3 Hi Alex and Sarah, boy, you're right there with me since as I was walking here, today, I was working on the conception of DUALITY that most people call: CONTROL-CHAOS. I'm in a conversation with another person elsewheres, concerning Mahamudra and can't help but actaully face the question: are you deliberately trying to mis-interpret words and concepts? I seriously doubt that there's an intentional aspect of your words but it seems so easy the way Sarah explained it. You raised the issue of AGGREGATES by applying the word "conglomeration". Your "aggregate" is nothing more than the worst of all illusions that Maya could manifest BECAUSE you take "the sum of the parts" as a meaningful thing if not a rupa and you are re-interpreting those parts and the sum of those parts, to represent this thing called a self. THAT IS NOT YOU! Those conceptions and those illusions are not you no matter how you bring them together or view them seperately. THEY ARE EXTERIOR and very difficult to fit into any square hole or round hole, if they can be considered as pegs. It's frustrating isn't it? > > >> S: Atta, referring to 'himself', 'oneself', 'herself', etc is >probably the most common meaning in the texts. It's common, >conventional usage, Alex! > > > >A:> But don't the people on this board say that there is no even >conventional "self" colette: I tend to think so. ------------------------ which does this or that due to causes and >conditions, but *does* nevertheless. colette: transience my boy. As I tried to explain to a Western esoteric group in 2004, the implements of the altar are only temporal, there is no substance to them. but here I'm speaking in terms of Svabhava, et al. and that just raises the ugliness of the run-a-round that we find ourselves in now concerning the actuality of a self, an Atta, shall we dare to go and speak of an Atman? -------------------------------+ This is what I'm talking about the ease and clarity of what Sarah was speaking of: > > .... > > S: There is no self at all. There are only cittas, cetasikas and >rupas. So when the texts refer to 'oneself', 'himself' or whatever >else, it's just a convenient or common-language way of referring to >these cittas and cetasikas which are performing such deeds/taking >refuge or whatever else is being discussed. > > But conventionally Atta (as a conglomeration) of cittas and cetasikas performing function does exist. colette: How do you know that it's a conglomeration, an aggregate? Is it not possible that you are misinterpreting the "things" as being something they aren't and then transposing your IGNORANCE upon those things? Yep, the Buddha was correct: you can only step in a river for the first time once. Don't fight the current, experience the current. -------------------------- Otherwise it would be pointless to do anything (like getting up from the bed colette: how can you be sure that it is you that is getting up from the bed and not the bed kicking you out? ---------------------- or eating food , or drinking water, colette: are you eating the food and drinking the water or is it the other way around? --------------------------- or avoiding that car driving in your direction at 100 km/h) > colette: ah, you speak of some of my friends in S.F. but you yourself should know that heroin is an opiate while cocaine is amphetamine. "Driving that train...", or "drivin' with your eyes closed" the Eagles. What is money or finance? Is it a barbituate or amphetamine? --------------------------- > > >We can talk in such a way with right or wrong understanding. > > I prefer to talk with right understanding. > colette: <....>that a loaded statement. I can only think, with a smile on my face, of how Hatori Hanso in the movie KILL BILL vol 1 was yelling at his servant to "get the saki" where he eventually says "do you understand" and the servant replies to "Black Mamba" that he shaved his head he is not bald "do you understand". lol ---------------------------- > > >The right understanding knows there are only dhammas regardless of >the language. > colette: ....IF THAT AIN'T ONE OF THE MOST FOULEST BALLS I'VE EVER SEEN PITCHED. Dharmas are TEMPORAL and are only used as a means to bring forth enlightenment just as the boat is used to cross the river. STOP CARRYING THAT DAMNED BOAT AROUND WITH YOU are you CLINGING to it or is it clinging to you? ----------------------- > The above can be used to justify anything, including that There is none else but Allah! Allah Akbar! All words in Buddha - Dhamma are about Him... I hope you got the point, Sarah. I don't believe that Buddha used special secret language that means not-x when Buddha says x. > colette: I'm not in the best of shape right now since I'm coming out of a magikal experience so I'm in a mode of REFLECTION while my head clears but I can't help but think that statement, above, is just as loaded as a few of your other statements. Sorry, my time is running out but I've enjoyed "seeing" your view as you bring Sarah's view under your scrutiny, almost like THE CENTRAL SCRUTINIZER from F.Zappa's Joe's Garage opera. toodles, colette <....> #96658 From: "jonathancoppola" Date: Thu Mar 19, 2009 6:27 pm Subject: Make a garland of many good deeds! jonathancoppola Hello dhammastudygroup! My name is Jonathan Coppola, and I have been a practicing Buddhist for some time now. I was asked to post to this group by my Dhamma friend Bhikkhu Samahita. Below you will see the 17th post in a series I am writing on the Dhammapada. If you would like to receive a copy of the earlier posts, follow the instructions below. Thank you for allowing me to join this group, and I look forward to learning form this group, and offering my input as well! Sincerely, and with METTA! Jonathan Dhammapada entry #173/19/2009 Dear friendsBelow please find a part of a series of postings that will include entries from the Dhammapada. Along with these will be my comments. I encourage you to reflect on these entries, and post comments of your own here or at: jonathancoppola@... A copy of all the postings is available upon request. The source is: The Dhammapada, Translated by Venerable Ananda Maitraya, Parallex Press, 1995. Dhammapada 4 Flowers 6. A monk should dwell and act in the village, Like a bee extracting honey from a flower But leaving the color and fragrance intact. 7. Pay no attention to harsh words uttered by others. Do not be concerned with what others have or have not done. Observe your own actions and inactions. 8. Like a beautiful brightly colored flower without fragrance Is the well spoken word without action. 9. Like a beautiful brightly colored flower full of fragrance Is the well spoken word and the deed that matches the word. 10. A man born to this world should do many good deeds, As a garland maker makes garlands from a heap of flowers. Comments: 6. Harmlessness is taught many times throughout the Dhammapada. If we employ mindfulness throughout our day, it is impossible, or at least much less likely that we will cause suffering for others, and ultimately, ourselves. Having the ability to employ restraint before our thoughts, words, and actions cause any harm is the result of our daily meditation practice. 7. Maintaining silence while being spoken to harshly, or ignoring rude comments is not at all easy, yet, I have found this technique VERY effective! Another source of great relief is the extremely practical idea of only being concerned with our own actions. Losing the desire to give unsolicited advice, or have worries about what others are doing and not doing is not only liberating, it raises our ability to get along with others. This technique also allows us greater inner peace, and more opportunities and energy to improve ourselves! 8-9. Furthermore, having the ability to comprehend the Dhamma, and being able to practice it throughout the day are very different. We must be aware of any gaps in our credibility, and integrity, and be very careful not to attempt to teach others ideas or practices that we are not familiar with through practice. 10. What constitutes a "good" deed? One of my favorite things to do is volunteer my time for my friends, and community organizations. I find the most merit (fulfillment)is obtained when I do this without attachment to(or expectation of)reward, even for that which is intangible, like merit! The posts that I create are a very good example. For the Buddha's teaching on right action, see: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/samma-kammanto.html When we help others unconditionally, we gain confidence in ourselves, increase our faith in the dhamma, as well as build our character and self-esteem. As with any new endeavor, this may prove uncomfortable at first. However, with diligence and practice we create a greater and greater feeling of satisfaction and contentment for ourselves and others. Make a garland of many good deeds! With Metta, Jonathan #96659 From: "Alex" Date: Fri Mar 20, 2009 1:57 am Subject: Re: Make a garland of many good deeds! truth_aerator Hello Jonathan, >"jonathancoppola" wrote: > > Hello dhammastudygroup! > My name is Jonathan Coppola, Welcome to the board. Some sutta quotes that I like are: If a monk understands the meaning and the text of Dhamma- even if it be but a stanza of four lines-and be set on living in accordance with the dhamma, he may be called "one widely learnt, who knows Dhamma by heart.". - E.M. Hare AN book 4s Vi (186) Approach Pg 185 101. Better than a thousand useless verses is one useful verse, hearing which one attains peace. 112. Better it is to live one day strenuous and resolute than to live a hundred years sluggish and dissipated. 113. Better it is to live one day seeing the rise and fall of things than to live as hundred years without ever seeing the rise and fall of things. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/dhp/dhp.08.budd.html monks, concentration is the way, non-concentration the no-whither way. Samadhi Maggo, asamadhi kummaggo An Book of 5s Pg 296 The Lion Roar text iii, 414, Vi, vi, 64 === "And how is a monk learned? His evil, unskillful qualities that are defiled, that lead to further becoming, create trouble, ripen in stress, and lead to future birth, aging, & death have streamed away. This is how a monk is learned. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.039.than.html#t-10 "And which is comprehension? Any ending of passion, ending of aversion, ending of delusion. 1 This is called comprehension." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.023.than.html With metta, Alex #96660 From: "Robert" Date: Fri Mar 20, 2009 1:49 am Subject: Re: Make a garland of many good deeds! avalo1968 Thank you for this posting Jonathan. The Dhammapada is my favorite of all Buddhist texts and I enjoyed reading your commentary. Regards, Robert A. #96662 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Fri Mar 20, 2009 3:24 am Subject: [dsg] Re: effort. epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > > Hi Rob Ep (& Howard), > > --- On Thu, 19/3/09, Robert Epstein wrote: > >>S: [Jon's at the airport ..... One can feel sad one moment and then discuss the Dhamma with a friend, like Alex, and completely forget about the sad story:-)] > > R:> Melanie has taken such trips before; makes clinging very obvious when she is away. :-))) > ... > S: Yes, even more glaringly obvious than when they're around :-))) At least I no know Jon arrived safely plus all his luggage after his three flights. Knowing my clinging, he's very good at contacting me on arrival. > .... > R:> It is clear that each cetasika contributes a particular function to the citta, and this would make sense if it is the citta seeing through these functions, experiencing through them. But with all of them partaking of an aspectof the experience 'in their own right,' it is hard to avoid the sense that they are being given the status of a kind of entity as "experiencers. " > ... > S: Well, all cittas and cetasikas are namas (as opposed to rupas) and as such do experience objects. The cetasikas experience the same object as the citta they arise with, of course. They are impermanent elements or dhammas (realities). I don't have a problem with entities. The main point to appreciate is that they are anatta - there is no self or 'thing' as we are used to thinking. When I say entity, I mean a kind of self or individual identity. If each of these mental factors are "experiencers," that is the same as saying they are selves. If experience just arises for consciousness in an objective way, that is one thing. But if there is a specific consciousness, like something that stands there to take a particular experience in, and the cetasikas do this as well, each in its own right, how are they not like little momentary selves? > ... > R:> Since the point of arising and falling away consciousness is that it has no personhood or substantiality, it seems opposite to this to say that these elements each have a particular experience. They seem to be given a kind of substantiality by this, even though they are only momentary. > ... > S: When we (or the texts, rather) say there is no core or substantiality, it means there is no atta, no thing, such as a person or computer involved. The impermanent dhammas are not 'nothings', however - they are namas or rupas with characteristics and functions. > > Take seeing consciousness as an example. It is different from hearing and it is different from visible object. It is the nama which sees visible object. The vedana (feeling) which accompanies it, 'tastes' the visible object. Again, vedana is anatta, but it is not 'nothing', because it's an element. This is very subtle business - the line between "not being nothing" and "not being a self." If namas and rupas are seen as "real existent things," rather than arising and falling experiences, they are verging on the edge of selfhood, and there is a danger they will be seen as real in a way that establishes their substantiality. That's my fear when too much emphasis is put on how *real* they are, rather than how they demonstrate the three characteristics, which really tend to show that they are ultimately *not* real [as we experience them.] I am more comfortable with Buddha's admonitions to see all things are temporary and passing away, unsatisfying and not containing a core or being part of self, than emphasizing the momentary, changing reality as being a series of *real things.* This latter emphasis may make the arising and falling dhammas more important than they should be. The point, as you do often emphasize, is only that they demonstrate impermanence and non-self. > ... > > S: That's one way of putting it. Isn't it why the truths in the Buddha's teachings are just as valid now as when he spoke? > > R:>Yes, much of it seems very immediate. > ... > S: I'm glad we agree on all this side of things. I was afraid you were going to follow a line I had many discussions with Dan about - whether the Truths could be realised without a Buddha. No, I have more of a problem with interpretations of what the Buddha said that seem to go far from his obvious meaning, and that create convoluted interpretations. It seems that you are on most sure footing when you stay close to what is actually said, taking into account to some extent the time and place - there is nothing wrong with being informed on the historical context, for sure - but not using this as a reason to come up with opposite meanings to what is said, in which case you no longer have the surety of sticking close to the Buddha's own teachings - you are creating your own interpretation in their place and there is much less certainty as to whether you are on the right track. Although the sages of later years may have explained the Buddha's plans in greater detail and more systematically, as in the Abhidhamma, laying out all the categories in a more systematic and sequential form, one cannot even substitute these wise sages for the plain meanings of the Buddha's words. One should always justify any interpretation by seeing that it illuminates but doesn't contradict what the Buddha originally spoke. Buddha himself has to get the final word. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = #96663 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Fri Mar 20, 2009 3:07 am Subject: [dsg] Does This Come From K.Sujin:2? Re: K.Sujin on meditation epsteinrob --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > R:> It's not bad to argue a little if one is in good company. :) > ... > S: :) I agree. :-) Best, Robert = = = = = = = #96664 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Fri Mar 20, 2009 3:30 am Subject: [dsg] Re: effort. epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > > Hi Rob Ep (& Howard), > > --- On Thu, 19/3/09, Robert Epstein wrote: > >>S: [Jon's at the airport ..... One can feel sad one moment and then discuss the Dhamma with a friend, like Alex, and completely forget about the sad story:-)] > > R:> Melanie has taken such trips before; makes clinging very obvious when she is away. :-))) > ... > S: Yes, even more glaringly obvious than when they're around :-))) At least I no know Jon arrived safely plus all his luggage after his three flights. Knowing my clinging, he's very good at contacting me on arrival. I tend to be pretty nervous myself. Melanie has been to Pakistan two or three times in the last few years, Afghanistan, India, Morocco and Mongolia. I've always wanted to go to Mongolia for some reason, so that one made me jealous. Family can't go on these government trips of course. It's a good chance, anyway, to experience fear and apprehension as feeling and mental state and not attach reality to their messages. But you know how it goes... Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = = = #96665 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Fri Mar 20, 2009 3:33 am Subject: Fwd: [dsg] Re: effort. sent again epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > > > > Onderwerp: Antw.: [dsg] Re: effort. > > > > Dear Sarah and Rob Ep, > (something happened, I send again) > > your interesting discussion reminded me of what I heard on a > > recording recently. > > Op 19-mrt-2009, om 14:39 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > > > >> R:> Since the point of arising and falling away consciousness is > >> that it has no personhood or substantiality, it seems opposite to > >> this to say that these elements each have a particular experience. > >> They seem to be given a kind of substantiality by this, even > >> though they are only momentary. > > ------- > > N: Kh Sujin reminds us to understand that seeing, etc. are mere > > dhammas. > understanding how it can be non-self. The nature of dhamma is non- > > self. It is not a matter of words but of understanding the reality > > at this moment.This does not mean that we just copy the words: it > > is non-self. Understand seeing, how does it come about? Conditioned > > or at will? > > This will prevent us from giving a substantiality to realities. She > keeps on repeating: it is not a matter of words or names, attend to > the characteristic now. That is the only way leading to more > understanding. > First it has to be realized that what appears now is only a dhamma. > Later on more details of nama and rupa will be known. Thank you, that was helpful. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = #96666 From: "thomaslaw03" Date: Fri Mar 20, 2009 3:57 am Subject: Buddhist gods thomaslaw03 Dear Dhamma friends, These are many gods/goddesses/spiritual beings accepted or recognized in Pali Buddhism. Does anyone here know of how many, and of what types are mentioned in the texts and in Theravada tradition? Thank you. Regards, Thomas Law #96667 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Fri Mar 20, 2009 8:44 am Subject: Re: Disappointed in Ven Thich Nhat Hanh rjkjp1 -Hi Howard, what do you think of where he says at times the Buddha incarnates as a cloud or rock. That people actually believe this nonsense is more worrying. robert In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, all - > > (It seems that I have apparently escaped from computer bardo! ;-) > > Recently I've been reading a book by the Vietnamese monk Thich Nhat > Hanh, for whom I've long had much respect (and still do) because of his #96668 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Mar 20, 2009 8:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Secluded Place. Discussions with Khun Sujin in Bangkok (3) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, Part 3 Developing Samatha in Sa.msaara "Samatha is wholesome like daana is wholesome, siila is wholesome but it's not the way to eradicate akusala dhamma." *********** Ven Dhammadharo: What kind of misunderstanding would it be if it would make someone think that it's just not possible to be aware now? Sujin: Their own accumulation. Jill: Isn't that strong enough wrong understanding to stop them being aware now? Sujin: You cannot change people because they have accumulations to be like that, but you can help the other to understand the truth little by little. Tony: Many people hold the belief that the development of samatha does in some way conduce to the development of wisdom. Sujin: How do you know that you haven't practised samatha before in your previous life? By the long way of sa.msaara, circle of life and death, we are sure that we have developed [it in] some lives before. But what about this life even when we have practised samatha for many, many lives before, but this life we still have lobha, dosa and moha, because by developing samatha it cannot eradicate akusala dhamma at all. For those who have developed samatha in this life and now today if they begin to practise vipassanaa, they shouldn't be attached to samatha that they had practised before. That's the way to develop right understanding, to become detached from all types of naama and raupa, the past naama and ruupa. If they still cling or if they are still attached to their samatha practice [of] before, they cannot practise vipassanaa. Tony: [Can we say the] people who have strong attachment to their samatha meditation were very likely to have developed samatha in previous lives or even in this life. Sujin: Because they don't see the value of a moment of awareness. Tony: The Buddha said a lot about the value... in terms of merit... Sujin: Samatha is wholesome like daana is wholesome, siila is wholesome but it's not the way to eradicate akusala dhamma. ******* Metta, Sarah ======= #96669 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Mar 20, 2009 9:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Secluded Place. Discussions with Khun Sujin (4) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, Part 4 Different Purposes "Pa~n~naa does not have [the] purpose to have such [a] citta arise." **** Tony: In sa.msaara, you said it was very likely that many of us here would have done samatha meditation... why did you say this? Sujin: That's why we should not cling to practising samatha because it cannot eradicate unwholesomeness. Tony: Why do you say that? Likely to have in some stage of sa.msaara....? Sujin: So that we will not be attached to samatha practice because we have practised and tranquillity has completely gone. Nothing to do with ignorance. It cannot eliminate ignorance. Ven Dhammadharo: Some people might say: "yes, we've developed samatha many times, but if we had heard about the Buddha's teachings after we'd developed samatha, then we'd be alright, we'd be able to eradicate defilements now. In this life I'm going to do it, I have the Buddha's teachings this time, so I'll get my samatha going really good and this time won't be like the other times because this time after my samatha is perfected, then, since I know about the four Noble Truths, I will eradicate defilements." Jill: I think the point is that we've come to this stage because of the accumulations we've got now and the only thing that is important is awareness now, no matter whether you're sitting in jhaana, if you've accumulated tendencies towards that, but to start off now thinking that samatha is going to be a quicker way or a 'whatever way' is not right understanding. Ven D: Can you explain why not? Jill: Because it's basically only awareness now that builds up awareness every moment and it's only awareness which is going to eradicate defilements. Sujin: When one knows one has conditions for samatha, so samatha arises, or jhaana citta or samaadhi citta arises, that's better because that's right understanding. It's different from having the purpose to develop it and wanting it. ... T: Why does awareness now.... Sujin: Whenever awareness arises and pa~n~naa sees realities as they are, pa~n~naa also sees conditions for each reality to arise. When lobha arises, pa~n~naa sees that there are conditions for lobha to arise. So when jhaana or samatha or tranquil citta arises, pa~n~naa sees conditions for that citta to arise. Pa~n~naa does not have [the] purpose to have such citta arise, but pa~n~naa sees conditions for that citta to arise in order to become detached from clinging, wanting, craving for it to arise. So it depends on now, [whether] pa~n~naa sees conditions for seeing or hearing or or samatha citta to arise or [whether] there is the self or desire for tranquillity to arise. ****** Metta, Sarah ======= #96670 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Mar 20, 2009 9:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Make a garland of many good deeds! sarahprocter... Dear Jonathan, --- On Fri, 20/3/09, jonathancoppola wrote: >My name is Jonathan Coppola, and I have been a practicing Buddhist for some time now. I was asked to post to this group by my Dhamma friend Bhikkhu Samahita. ... S: Just a quick welcome for now and thank you for joining us and sending the Dhp verse and your comments. I'll look forward to printing them out later and reading more carefully and also to reading your future installments and discussions. Thanks also to Ven Samahita. May I ask where you live or encourage you to add a little more about your background? Anyway, glad to welcome another Jonathan here! Metta, Sarah ====== #96671 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Mar 20, 2009 9:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: effort. sarahprocter... Hi Rob Ep, --- On Fri, 20/3/09, Robert Epstein wrote: > S: Yes, even more glaringly obvious than when they're around :-))) At least I no know Jon arrived safely plus all his luggage after his three flights. Knowing my clinging, he's very good at contacting me on arrival. ... R:> I tend to be pretty nervous myself. Melanie has been to Pakistan two or three times in the last few years, Afghanistan, India, Morocco and Mongolia. I've always wanted to go to Mongolia for some reason, so that one made me jealous. Family can't go on these government trips of course. It's a good chance, anyway, to experience fear and apprehension as feeling and mental state and not attach reality to their messages. But you know how it goes... ... S: Of course, it's really just another long story or dream in our minds. Whether they are here or in Mongolia, there's still only seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching and thinking about all sorts of ideas on account of them. I have an idea of missing Jon, but it's just a moment (or few) of thinking and then gone, no different from any other time. When there's no thinking about flights or destinations or safety, there's no anxiety. We see how it really comes back to the citta all the time and I think that's what you're getting at too. Yes, I know how it goes. Actually, I was laughing this morning when we finally 'connected'. Jon had got in late after his 3 flights, one of which was a little delayed. By midnight, his room still wasn't available, so he was temporarily put in an old room and decided not to set his alarm. At 7 a.m., however, he was woken by a 'Tsunami alert'! He grabbed his passport and computer and was told to make his way (I assume in his pyjamas) with the other guests up a hill! I think the rest of the day was just as unpredictable, but then isn't even this moment of seeing or hearing unpredictable? Metta, Sarah p.s Sounds like Melananie has a very interesting job - shame you can't go on the trips too.... ======== #96672 From: "Scott" Date: Fri Mar 20, 2009 12:04 pm Subject: Re: Nibbana is NOT THE ALL> scottduncan2 Dear Alex and Sarah, Regarding: A: "Do you believe that something remains in the final parinibbana, that can perhaps 'know' final parinibbana?" Scott: The question is unclear but as far as I'm following it, no. There are no more conditions for the arising of any consciousness. With the final ceasing of that which is already impermanent and not-self, with no further conditions for any arising, how could this be? I thought you were discussing Nibbaana as an object of consciousness. Consider Itivuttaka 43, The Unborn Sutta: "...There exists, monks, that which is unborn, that which is unbecome, that which is uncreated, that which is unconditioned. For if there were not, monks, that which is unborn, that which is unbecome, that which is uncreated, that which is unconditioned, there could not be made known here the escape from that which is born, that which is unbecome, that which is created, that which is conditioned. Yet since there exists, monks, that which is unborn, that which is unbecome, that which is uncreated, that which is unconditioned, there is therefore made known the escape from that which is born, that which is become, that which is created, that which is conditioned..." Atthi, bhikkhave , ajaata.m abhuutaṃ akata.m asa"nkhata.m. No ceta.m, bhikkhave, abhavissa ajaata.m abhuuta.m akata.m asa"nkhata.m, nayidha jaatassa bhuutassa katassa sa"nkhatassa nissara.na.m pa~n~naayetha. Yasmaa ca kho, bhikkhave, atthi ajaata.m abhuuta.m akata.m asa"nkhata.m, tasmaa jaatassa bhuutassa katassa sa"nkhatassa nissara.na.m pa~n~naayatii 'ti. Scott: In the Itivuttaka Commentary, pp. 402-404, is a passage very much worth reading; sorry if it's a bit long: "...And, in this connection, since the actual presence in the highest sense of this nibbaana-element has been taught by the Perfectly Self-Enlightened One, taking pity on the whole world, by way of countless sutta passages, such as 'States without conditions (appaccayaa dhammaa) (Dhs. p.2); 'There is, monks, that base wherein there is neither earth' (Ud 80); 'This, too, is a matter hard to see, that is to say, the calming of all formations, the relinquishment of all substrates' (M I 167); and 'And the unconditioned (state) will I teach you, monks, and the course leading to the unconditioned' (S IV 359) and so on, and by way of this sutta too, viz. 'There exists, monks, that which is unborn', it ought therefore not to be rejected. There will be absolutely no doubt or perplexity in this regard on the part of those who are intelligent, even though they may not [themselves] be those who have set such first hand. Rather, the logical scheme here, opening by way of rendering explicit that which is implicit, has the aim of dispelling any perplexity on the part of those persons who lack understanding. Just as there is made known, on account of the fact that it is capable of being fully understood, an escape from sense-desires and forms that have that which surpasses them, which [escape] consisting of that which is their opposite, has as its own nature that which is the antithesis thereof, so does there have to be an escape from all conditioned states having that as their own nature, [which escape], consisting of that which is their opposite, has as its own nature that which is the antithesis thereof. And that escape is the unconditioned element. Yet however good that vipassanaa-knowledge, which has conditioned dhammas as its object, may be, not even adaptation-knowledge [anuloma~n~aa.na.m] is able to abandon the defilements by way of extirpation. Similarly, that knowledge which, in the first jhaana and so on, has conventional truth as its object, abandons defilements only by way of suppression, not by way of extirpation. Hence, given the inability, as regards abandoning defilements by way of extirpation, on the part of either that knowledge having conditioned dhammas as its object or that having conventional truth as its object, there has to be an object, whose own nature is the converse of both of these, for that knowledge associated with ariyan paths that does effect the abandonment by way of extirpation - this is the unconditioned element. Similarly, this statement throwing light on the existence, in the highest sense, of nibbaana, viz. 'There exists, monks, that which is unborn, that which is unbecome, that which is uncreated, that which is unconditioned', is of unequivocal meaning, on account of its having been proclaimed by the Lord. For whatever is proclaimed by the Lord is of unequivocal meaning, [represents] the highest truth [paramattha.m], as with 'All formations are impermanent, all formations are dukkha, all dhammas are not-self (A I 286)." Sincerely, Scott. #96673 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Mar 20, 2009 1:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: truth and prepared seats sarahprocter... Hi Robert A, (& Scott) --- On Thu, 19/3/09, Robert wrote: >...- although offense does seem to happen often when I post at DSG, so I should learn from that and try to avoid it in the future. I will try to make my posts less offensive if I post again at DSG. ... S: Actually, I think your speech is always very considered and gentle and I can't imagine that anyone would take offence. I think you and Scott have just been sharing different interpretations of the Teachings and it's been a useful exchange. As you pointed out, you weren't 'presuming to teach' either and were 'accomodating his request'. Actually, I always appreciate it when you kindly share your ideas. So please don't be put off at all - maybe a little misunderstanding in passing, that's all. The Vitakkasa.n.thaana Sutta is not an easy one and leads to more disputes than almost any other sutta, I've found. I appreciated Scott's extra notes and detail. [More on it in 'useful posts' under 'Vitakka-Santhana Sutta']. Thanks for raising it again. Metta, Sarah ======= #96674 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Mar 20, 2009 8:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Disappointed in Ven Thich Nhat Hanh upasaka_howard Hi, Robert - In a message dated 3/20/2009 4:50:12 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, rjkjp1@... writes: Hi Howard, what do you think of where he says at times the Buddha incarnates as a cloud or rock. -------------------------------------------- I missed that gem! --------------------------------------------- That people actually believe this nonsense is more worrying. --------------------------------------------- Unfortunately, the longer I live, the less surprised I am at what people will believe. ---------------------------------------------- robert ========================== Good to hear from you, Robert! :-) With metta, Howard *(From the Diamond Sutra) #96675 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Mar 20, 2009 1:09 pm Subject: Re: Fwd: [dsg] Re: effort. sent again sarahprocter... Dear Nina & Rob Ep, --- On Thu, 19/3/09, Nina van Gorkom wrote: >> R:> Since the point of arising and falling away consciousness is >> that it has no personhood or substantiality, it seems opposite to >> this to say that these elements each have a particular experience. >> They seem to be given a kind of substantiality by this, even >> though they are only momentary. > ------- > N: Kh Sujin reminds us to understand that seeing, etc. are mere > dhammas. understanding how it can be non-self. The nature of dhamma is non- > self. It is not a matter of words but of understanding the reality > at this moment.This does not mean that we just copy the words: it > is non-self. Understand seeing, how does it come about? Conditioned > or at will? > >This will prevent us from giving a substantiality to realities. She keeps on repeating: it is not a matter of words or names, attend to the characteristic now. That is the only way leading to more understanding. ... S: Yes, this is the point -- when there is understanding now of the characteristic of seeing, just as it is -- the naama which experiences visible object -- then at such a time, there's no question or doubt or thought about substantiality or self. As she says, it's not a matter of particular texts, or Pali or words or labels -- it has to be the direct understanding of the reality which appears now. Metta, Sarah ======= #96676 From: "szmicio" Date: Fri Mar 20, 2009 1:28 pm Subject: Re: The Secluded Place. Discussions with Khun Sujin in Bangkok, 1976 (1).... szmicio Dear Alex > >L: right-effort is 'trying', not us. Right effort arises only on >conditions. If that is not so, it's not right-effort. > > Alex, you have to look at paticcasamupada. There is just moha, not >self. there is samsara-vatta, not life we think of. > > A: Why can't conventional self (which is fully conditioned) not be able to produce right-effort, strive at eradicating unskillful tendencies and cultivate the growth of skilful ones? L: Is it lobha, or alobha then? Is it thinking or not? I think the only chance for alobha is now, no matter what we think about 'self' or 'non-self'. You said in previous tread that there is thinking about dhamma and it's diffrent then applying dhamma in daily life. I think the same, but no matter what's happening now it's always daily life, and no need to think much. just normal daily life. i belive that it leads to detachment. even there is so much akusala we can learn more and more that's not ours. Right-effort is a part of Ariya-magga, and it's quiet diffrent from that what we think of right-effort. right-effort is nama, no one can induced or make right effort to arise. > What is attadipo, attadanta, attadattha, attagutta, attahetu, attahita, etc? L: Those are just words. ;> > The conditionality (determinism?) doesn't have to excluse the decision to strive rather than to do nothing and let the onslaught brought forth by defilements to come raining down. > > At the beginning stages it is "you" vs "them" : > > "Just as a strong man, seizing a weaker man by the head or the throat or the shoulders, would beat him down, constrain, and crush him; in the same way, if evil, unskillful thoughts imbued with desire, aversion or delusion still arise in the monk while he is attending to the relaxing of thought-fabrication with regard to those thoughts, then with his teeth clenched and his tongue pressed against the roof of his mouth he should beat down, constrain, and crush his mind with his awareness. As with his teeth clenched and his tongue pressed against the roof of his mouth he is beating down, constraining, and crushing his mind with his awareness, those evil, unskillful thoughts are abandoned and subside. With their abandoning, he steadies his mind right within, settles it, unifies it, and concentrates it." L: I like this Sutta. See also kusala sutta. My best wishes Lukas #96677 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Mar 20, 2009 12:48 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Secluded Place. Discussions with Khun Sujin in Bangkok, 1976 (2) sarahprocter... Hi Lukas, --- On Thu, 19/3/09, szmicio wrote: > So the best support is to be aware immediately - not to have [the] intention to use other things to support vipassanaa or satipa.t.thaana. Ten hours that you try to have some kusala to support satipa.t.thaana [or] one or two or three or ten moments of awareness - which is better? L: Lobha is very tricky ;> .... S: Very true! Please add any of your comments anytime. Metta, Sarah ===== #96678 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Mar 20, 2009 1:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] control & doing sarahprocter... Hi Alex & all, --- On Thu, 19/3/09, Alex wrote: >> S: There is no self at all. There are only cittas, cetasikas and >rupas. So when the texts refer to 'oneself', 'himself' or whatever else, it's just a convenient or common-language way of referring to these cittas and cetasikas which are performing such deeds/taking refuge or whatever else is being discussed. A:> But conventionally Atta (as a conglomeration) of cittas and cetasikas performing function does exist. ... S: Conventionally means conventionally. We can refer to Atta (as a conglomeration), but know we do so for convenience, just as we refer to many other concepts for convenience. .... A:>Otherwise it would be pointless to do anything (like getting up from the bed or eating food , or drinking water, or avoiding that car driving in your direction at 100 km/h) ... S: No, this is where you always go wrong in your understanding of what we (or the Buddha) is saying. We refer to getting up from the bed, but actually there are just various cittas, cetasikas and rupas performing their various functions. We read in the commentary to the Satipatthana Sutta under the section on "The Modes of Deportment" (Soma translation, BPS): "Who goes? No living being or person whatsoever. Whose going is it? Not the going of any living being or person. On account of what does the going take place? On account of the diffusion of the process of oscillation born of mental activity....The same is the method of exposition as regards the other postures: If there arises the thought, 'I shall stand,' that thought produces the process of oscillation. The process of oscillation produces bodily expression. The raising upright of the whole body from below owing to the diffusion of the process of oscillation is called standing." ["Produces the process of oscillation: Brings about the group of materiality with the quality of oscillation in excess. "This group of materiality is that of the pure octad consisting of the Four Great Primaries [mahaabhuuta] symbolized by earth, water, fire and air, and the four derived from these: colour, smell, taste and nutritive essence [pa.thavii aapo tejo vaayo va.n.na ghandha rasa ojaa]."] "He who knows (that by the diffusion of this process of oscillation born of mental activity take place going, standing, sitting and lying down) pursues the line of thinking (called investigation) in the following manner: 'A living being goes,' 'A living being stands,' (according to the false belief of those unacquainted with the reality of the matter or according to conventional speech), but truly there is no living being going or standing. This talk of a living being going or standing is similar to speech in the following way: 'A cart goes.' 'A cart stands.' In fact there is no going cart and no standing cart." >>S:We can talk in such a way with right or wrong understanding. A:> I prefer to talk with right understanding. ... S: Good, so the right understanding is that there is no person, no cart and so on. ... >>S:The right understanding knows there are only dhammas regardless of >the language. ... A:> The above can be used to justify anything, including that There is none else but Allah! Allah Akbar! All words in Buddha - Dhamma are about Him... I hope you got the point, Sarah. I don't believe that Buddha used special secret language that means not-x when Buddha says x. ... S: SN 35:85 "Empty is the World" (Bodhi transl): "Then the Venerable Aananda approached the Blessed One....and said to him: 'Venerable Sir, it is said, 'Empty is the world, empty is the world.' In what way, venerable sir, is it said, 'Empty is the world'?' 'It is, Aananda, because it is empty of self and of what belongs to self that it is said, 'Empty is the world.' And what is empty of self and of what belongs to self? The eye, Aananda, is empty of self and of what belongs to self. Forms... Eye-consciousness....Eye-contact....Whatever feeling.....that too is empty of self and of what belongs to self. 'It is, Aananda, because it is empty of self and of what belongs to self that it is said, 'Empty is the world.' ' " Metta, Sarah ======== #96679 From: "szmicio" Date: Fri Mar 20, 2009 1:43 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] truth and prepared seats szmicio Dear Nina > N: That reminds me. Lukas asked me to especially speak about > condiitons related to daily life and I started with this, but did not > finish, lack of time. As you, pt, has questions on the different > chapters I shall think of Lukas' request. Lukas could remind me again > what I have to do? L: Could you remind us about daily life? What's the characteristic of nama? What's the characteristic of rupa? There is seeing and hearing now, but why is that we are involved in the world of nimitta? in the world of people and things? Please Nina can you say about moha? What's the characteristic of moha in daily life? We are so concerned about our lifes and 'practices'. But everything which have arisen now is gone. There is only one citta at a time which experiences its object. Can you reminds us about diffrent kinds of conditions which are involved in daily life? Maybe Sarah could help? Maybe Loedwig has something to add? My best wishes Lukas #96680 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Fri Mar 20, 2009 1:52 pm Subject: [dsg] Does This Come From K.Sujin:2? Re: K.Sujin on meditation epsteinrob Hi Sarah! Left out the attribution on this little note. Sorry. Here it is again. Please don't give me a demerit! :-( --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Epstein" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > > R:> It's not bad to argue a little if one is in good company. :) > > ... > > S: :) I agree. > > :-) > > Best, > Robert > > = = = = = = = > #96681 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Mar 20, 2009 1:58 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Secluded Place. Discussions with Khun Sujin in Bangkok, 1976 (1).... nilovg Dear Alex and Lukas, Op 20-mrt-2009, om 14:28 heeft szmicio het volgende geschreven: > As with his teeth clenched and his tongue pressed against the > roof of his mouth he is beating down, constraining, and crushing > his mind with his awareness, those evil, unskillful thoughts are > abandoned and subside. With their abandoning, he steadies his mind > right within, settles it, unifies it, and concentrates it." ------- I repost the co to this text: < The Commentary elaborates on the simile of the strong man who takes a weaker man by his shoulders and head and presses his throat tightly so that he becomes frightened and eventually dies. Evenso is the bhikkhu like a wrestler who opposes his unwholesome thoughts. He can abandon them by applying great effort. The Commentary then refers to a text about the Bodhisattas supreme effort before he attained Buddhahood. When he sat down under the Bodhi-tree he said: He would not leave his seat until he had reached Buddhahood. N: We read in the Middle Length Sayings, no 36, the Greater Discourse to Saccaka, that the Buddha spoke about his ascetical practices before he became the Sammasambuddha. He said to Aggivessana: He said that while he was doing so sweat poured from his armpits. The Commentary to the Greater Discourse to Saccaka, (partly rendered by Ven. Bodhi) gives the reasons for the Bodhisattas austerities before his enlightenment: to show his own exertion to the world, because the quality of invincible energy gave him joy. And also out of compassion for later generations, by inspiring them to strive with the same determination that he applied to attain Buddhahood. N: The clenching of the teeth shows the Bodhisattas supreme effort, but this was accompanied by paaa of a high degree. The bhikkhu referred to in the who has to abandon his unwholesome thoughts is on the way to arahatship. This cannot be attained without right effort which has to be accompanied by paaa. As we read in this sutta, quoted above, he should restrain, subdue and beat down the (evil) mind by the (good) mind. If someone just clenches his teeth with dispair or fear because he does not want to have unwholesome thoughts, it is not the right effort that must be accompanied by paaa. > ***** Nina. #96682 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Fri Mar 20, 2009 2:05 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: effort. epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: Actually, I was laughing this morning when we finally 'connected'. Jon had got in late after his 3 flights, one of which was a little delayed. By midnight, his room still wasn't available, so he was temporarily put in an old room and decided not to set his alarm. At 7 a.m., however, he was woken by a 'Tsunami alert'! He grabbed his passport and computer and was told to make his way (I assume in his pyjamas) with the other guests up a hill! I think the rest of the day was just as unpredictable, but then isn't even this moment of seeing or hearing unpredictable? Yes, it's kind of fun to see how unpredictable it really all is, compared to the expectation in the mind. I like your story of Jon's Tsunami alert. Sometimes the unpredictable nature of conditions can create quite a circus for us, can't it? Life is pretty funny if you look at it that way. > p.s Sounds like Melanie has a very interesting job - shame you can't go on the trips too.... Yes, she doesn't travel all the time, but when she does it's sometimes quite fascinating. As a government official, she was given presentations in a school in Mongolia and some other places that related to some U.S. programs, and she got to meet some of the nice people there. Luckily I had my two "pilgrimages" to Nepal and India, one before I met Melanie, and then with her on our honeymoon, before I was given the "babysitter" job for official trips after our daughter was born. [She's now 10, so it's been a while.] I also got to visit Melanie in Kenya twice when she was on temporary duty there, and we did a little flying around, little safaris and things, so I've had some fun [in the past.] Both times in Nepal I went to Sarnath and saw the Buddha's "Deer Park." I have a nice feeling about that place... :) I will say that despite the unreality of past moments, they can make a pleasant mental activity when not causing suffering through attachment. For me, those memories are very pleasant, though I would like to go back sometime. Best, Robert - - - - - - - - - - - - - #96683 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Fri Mar 20, 2009 2:11 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Disappointed in Ven Thich Nhat Hanh epsteinrob Hi Howard and other Robert. :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Robert - > > In a message dated 3/20/2009 4:50:12 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > rjkjp1@... writes: > > Hi Howard, > what do you think of where he says at times the Buddha incarnates as a cloud > or rock. > -------------------------------------------- > I missed that gem! > --------------------------------------------- > > That people actually believe this nonsense is more worrying. > --------------------------------------------- > Unfortunately, the longer I live, the less surprised I am at what people > will believe. I'm agnostic about mystical happenings of various kinds, as I know my sensory pallette is extremely limited, and current scientific culture very local, despite amazing discoveries in spectroscopy and telescopy, which greatly extend our sensory abilities. Who is to say whether there is not a spiritual dimension of living that we are not sensitive to, but which does take place? It may be superstition and mythological explanation, but I'm not ready to make a final judgment based on our limited abilities. We are still very close as a species to "monkeys who have a few interesting thoughts," so I wouldn't think we have the final take on anything. On the other hand, I also treat such reports with skepticism. I try to take the view that I neither believe nor totally disbelieve things that I haven't personally witnessed or experienced. Kalama Sutta would probably agree with me on this....? Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = = = = #96684 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Fri Mar 20, 2009 2:18 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Secluded Place. Discussions with Khun Sujin in Bangkok, 1976 (2) epsteinrob Hi Sarah, and All. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > > Hi Lukas, > > --- On Thu, 19/3/09, szmicio wrote: > > So the best support is to be aware immediately - not to have [the] intention to use other things to support vipassanaa or satipa.t.thaana. Ten hours that you try to have some kusala to support satipa.t.thaana [or] one or two or three or ten moments of awareness - which is better? > > L: Lobha is very tricky ;> > .... > S: Very true! > > Please add any of your comments anytime. I know that wasn't meant for me, but forgive me if I jump in and add my usual comment. One doesn't necessarily need to spend "down time" of any kind, whether it is sitting around the kitchen or sitting in meditation, "trying" to use secondary practices to support the arising of satipatthana. One can use that time to directly look at the reality of what is arising now, as you suggest. They are not mutually exclusive in my view, as some seem to think. Or maybe almost all here seem to think. When I am washing the dishes, sometimes the natural "samatha" of the dish-washing focuses me on the continued sensations of moving the sponge around, packing the dishes into the dishwasher, etc., and one becomes aware of certain direct moments of what is being seen or felt. These are very clear. Samatha or even just plain old relaxation can sometimes make space for the direct perception of the moment, in my view..... I think that while samatha does not directly lead to vipassana, it can sometimes be a condition for sati or vipassana. Best, Robert E. - - - - - - - - - - #96687 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Fri Mar 20, 2009 2:49 pm Subject: Re: Disappointed in Ven Thich Nhat Hanh epsteinrob Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, all - > > (It seems that I have apparently escaped from computer bardo! ;-) > > Recently I've been reading a book by the Vietnamese monk Thich Nhat > Hanh, for whom I've long had much respect (and still do) because of his highly > valuing the Pali suttas as the word of the Buddha and also because of his great > emphasis on anapanasati and ongoing mindfulness practice. This book of the > venerable's, however, a discussion of the Lotus Sutra, often called "The Lotus > of the True Dharma (or Law)," is very disappointing to me. > As you may know, much of early Mahayana, including the Perfection of > Wisdom sutras, and the writings of Nagarjuna & his main followers and also the > psychological, Abhidharmically-based works of Vasubandhu, has great appeal to > me. However, a good part of later Mahayana doctrine, holds no interest for > me, and that includes elements of the Lotus Sutra that are closer to a cross > between avatar-centered Hinduism and a kind of mystical Christianity. What I > find most distasteful is Ven TNH's reporting with approval the Lotus Sutra's > painting the Buddha not as a being who had been a man who discovered the > breadth and depth of dukkha, left his life of luxury in search of release from > dukkha, became a renunciant, achieved full awakening, and reintroduced the Dhamma > into a world empty of it, but, instead, as a cosmic being/reality who lives > in infinite time and space, and who, as a "skillful means," magically appears > in various worlds and realms again and again, putting on a mere show, a > fancy, sleight-of-hand act, of being a worldling who becomes a historical > Buddha. This is very close to painting the Buddha as a cosmic Godhead who > incarnates (or appears to incarnate), playing kindly pretend games with his > "children". This is SO far from the Buddhadhamma, IMO, as to be an outrageously gross > perversion of it. I think that it is in the most mystically magical works like The Lotus Sutra, which many people around the world swear by as a kind of ultimate Bible that can bring magical effects, that Mahayana and Theravada reach their biggest divide. Although there are magical elements throughout the Tipitaka as well, they don't seem to get to the point of suggesting that Buddha's prime function is as a kind of magical wishing gem or Godhead as you note above. I think that in some of the more brilliant analyses of how perception and mind take in a reality that is not really as substantial or self-related as it seems, such as the Avatamsaka and Lankavatara Sutras, there is much more of a continuum between some of the Theravada analyses and these Mahayana texts that dissect the nature of how realities manifest for us. Interesting to look at those divisions and the practices they lead to. Avatamsaka and Lankavatara are very much at the heart of zen practice, just as Anapanasati and Satipatthana Suttas are at the heart of "Vipassana" meditation, and basic zen sitting and Vipassana meditation are very similar in their basic approach. On the other hand, the sutras and even some Theravadin traditions that tend to worship the Buddha more than his teachings, do turn him into a mere guru or Godhead and are more in the line of ordinary religion and magical thinking. Thich Nhat Hanh has always seemed pretty grounded in down-to-earth practice of Vietnamese zen, which is normally very close to Theravada practice, so this is a surprising development. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = #96688 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Fri Mar 20, 2009 2:58 pm Subject: K. Sujin's Survey, p.147 - All Equal/Don't Own Anything epsteinrob Hi All. I am enjoying K. Sujin's book very much. She has a very nice writing style and has a way of applying each stage of her discussions to examples from life that are clear and interesting. I was originally attracted to the book by some very nice quotes that Nina posted. Recently I have been reading a passage on page 147 about momentary cittas and ownership of objects which I liked very much. She says that we are all equal and really don't own anything, as we can only enjoy our treasured objects at the moments when we are directly perceiving or thinking of them. The rest of the time they don't exist. In this way, all people are equal, they only have the momentary cittas, and don't really "have" anything. A quote: "We should carefully consider what our possessions we believe we own really are. The moments we do not see them we can merely think about them, but we believe that we own many things. However, of what use can these things be to us during the moments we do not see or touch them? When the characteristics of paramattha dhammas have been understood as they are: not a being, person or self, it will be realised that paramattha dhammas are the same for all people, and that in that respect all people are equal. ... The seeing consciousness and what appears to seeing, visible object, do not belong to anybody. Therefore, we should not take anything for "I" or "mine." " This is a very nice and clear description of the nature of anicca and anatta, I think. I found this not only a good description of how we are really without the support of our comforting objects in a universe of momentary experiences, but also a very nice social philosophy of equality that grows out of this truth. My own reaction: No where to stand, nothing to acquire. Not only "can't you take it with you" to "Heaven," as we think in the West, but you can't have it with you even now, except for a fleeting moment. So why be attached to dhammas, which are non-self? Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = = = #96689 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Mar 20, 2009 11:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Disappointed in Ven Thich Nhat Hanh upasaka_howard Hi, Robert (and RobK) - In a message dated 3/20/2009 10:22:42 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, epsteinrob@... writes: Hi Howard and other Robert. :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Robert - > > In a message dated 3/20/2009 4:50:12 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > rjkjp1@... writes: > > Hi Howard, > what do you think of where he says at times the Buddha incarnates as a cl oud > or rock. > -------------------------------------------- > I missed that gem! > --------------------------------------------- > > That people actually believe this nonsense is more worrying. > --------------------------------------------- > Unfortunately, the longer I live, the less surprised I am at what people > will believe. I'm agnostic about mystical happenings of various kinds, as I know my sensory pallette is extremely limited, and current scientific culture very local, despite amazing discoveries in spectroscopy and telescopy, which greatly extend our sensory abilities. Who is to say whether there is not a spiritual dimension of living that we are not sensitive to, but which does take place? It may be superstition and mythological explanation, but I'm not ready to make a final judgment based on our limited abilities. We are still very close as a species to "monkeys who have a few interesting thoughts," so I wouldn't think we have the final take on anything. On the other hand, I also treat such reports with skepticism. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Which amounts to not believing in them. We may not KNOW they are false, but we have no basis for believing them. ------------------------------------------------- I try to take the view that I neither believe nor totally disbelieve things that I haven't personally witnessed or experienced. Kalama Sutta would probably agree with me on this....? ---------------------------------------------------- Mmm, not so sure. I see the Kalama Sutta as pertaining to restricting the bases for belief. I don't view it as suggesting that one afford belief-weight to unknown implausibles equal to that afforded unknown plausibles. We can randomly propose infinitely many implausible assertions (like an invisible mother ship resting on the roof of my house, or the inhabitants of Atlantis having set up shop on the far side of the moon), and there is good reason to withhold belief with regard to these or even to outright disbelieve in such (so long as it is realized that disbelieving is not the same as knowing-to-be-false). ------------------------------------------------------ Best, Robert E. =============================== With metta, Howard *(Anonymous) #96690 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Mar 20, 2009 11:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Disappointed in Ven Thich Nhat Hanh upasaka_howard Hi, Robert - In a message dated 3/20/2009 10:58:17 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, epsteinrob@... writes: I think that it is in the most mystically magical works like The Lotus Sutra, which many people around the world swear by as a kind of ultimate Bible that can bring magical effects, that Mahayana and Theravada reach their biggest divide. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes. ---------------------------------------------- Although there are magical elements throughout the Tipitaka as well, they don't seem to get to the point of suggesting that Buddha's prime function is as a kind of magical wishing gem or Godhead as you note above. I think that in some of the more brilliant analyses of how perception and mind take in a reality that is not really as substantial or self-related as it seems, such as the Avatamsaka and Lankavatara Sutras, there is much more of a continuum between some of the Theravada analyses and these Mahayana texts that dissect the nature of how realities manifest for us. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: I agree, though more so with regard to the first of these two. ------------------------------------------------- Interesting to look at those divisions and the practices they lead to. Avatamsaka and Lankavatara are very much at the heart of zen practice, just as Anapanasati and Satipatthana Suttas are at the heart of "Vipassana" meditation, and basic zen sitting and Vipassana meditation are very similar in their basic approach. On the other hand, the sutras and even some Theravadin traditions that tend to worship the Buddha more than his teachings, do turn him into a mere guru or Godhead and are more in the line of ordinary religion and magical thinking. Thich Nhat Hanh has always seemed pretty grounded in down-to-earth practice of Vietnamese zen, which is normally very close to Theravada practice, so this is a surprising development. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Surprising to me as well, and a bit disappointing. ---------------------------------------------- > Best, > Robert E. ================================= With metta, Howard (Anonymous) #96691 From: "szmicio" Date: Fri Mar 20, 2009 5:17 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Secluded Place. Discussions with Khun Sujin in Bangkok, 1976 (1).. szmicio Dear Nina very useful comments. I remember this "Sutta on the Removal of Distracting Thoughts" because it's the hard one. I am grateful to Theras for their comments on Dhamma. That's why we call ourselfes Theravadins. We should pay respect for them, by right understanding. That's the only way to give them back for their deepest gift. That's how I've considered it recently. My best wishes Lukas > Dear Alex and Lukas, > Op 20-mrt-2009, om 14:28 heeft szmicio het volgende geschreven: > > > As with his teeth clenched and his tongue pressed against the > > roof of his mouth he is beating down, constraining, and crushing > > his mind with his awareness, those evil, unskillful thoughts are > > abandoned and subside. With their abandoning, he steadies his mind > > right within, settles it, unifies it, and concentrates it." > ------- > I repost the co to this text: > < The Commentary elaborates on the simile of the strong man who takes > a weaker man by his shoulders and head and presses his throat > tightly so that he becomes frightened and eventually dies. Evenso is > the bhikkhu like a wrestler who opposes his unwholesome thoughts. He > can abandon them by applying great effort. > The Commentary then refers to a text about the Bodhisatta's supreme > effort before he attained Buddhahood. When he sat down under the > Bodhi-tree he said: > He would not leave his seat until he had reached Buddhahood. > N: We read in the Middle Length Sayings, no 36, the Greater Discourse > to Saccaka, that the Buddha spoke about his ascetical practices > before he became the Sammasambuddha. He said to Aggivessana: now that I, with my teeth clenched, with my tongue pressed agains the > palate, by mind should subdue, restrain and dominate my mind?> He > said that while he was doing so sweat poured from his armpits. The > Commentary to the Greater Discourse to Saccaka, (partly rendered by > Ven. Bodhi) gives the reasons for the Bodhisatta's austerities before > his enlightenment: to show his own exertion to the world, because the > quality of invincible energy gave him joy. And also out of compassion > for later generations, by inspiring them to strive with the same > determination that he applied to attain Buddhahood. > N: The clenching of the teeth shows the Bodhisatta's supreme effort, > but this was accompanied by paaa of a high degree. The bhikkhu > referred to in the who > has to abandon his unwholesome thoughts is on the way to arahatship. > This cannot be attained without right effort which has to be > accompanied by paaa. As we read in this sutta, quoted above, he > should restrain, subdue and beat down the (evil) mind by the (good) > mind. If someone just clenches his teeth with dispair or fear because > he does not want to have unwholesome thoughts, it is not the right > effort that must be accompanied by paaa. > > > ***** > Nina. > #96692 From: "jonathancoppola" Date: Fri Mar 20, 2009 9:08 pm Subject: Wise and insightful words from a friend. jonathancoppola An insightful and wise friend wrote to me privately recently. They gave me permission to post this publically! They wrote.... Hi Jonathan, I am amazed with your sharing. The Dhamma is indeed beautiful in the beginning, beautiful in the middle and beautiful in the end. As for what constitutes good deeds, I would like to add that meditation is indeed a very good deed; perhaps even the highest deed. Both for oneself and for others. Both for now and for generations to come. There is a sutta (likely to be in the Anguttara Nikaya) on this where the Buddha praised Anurrudha and two other bhikkhus were meditating in together in a secluded place. So I do hope all Buddhists will also spare time meditating, apart from performing other good deeds. Either to gain concentration first (samatha) or if you already have reached the 4th Jhana, then vipassanna. Without striving to reach arahantship, we will never know His [the Buddha's] true teachings. This is supported by the Culahatthipadopama (Simile of the Elephant's footprint) Sutta and Mahasaropama (Simile of the Heartwood) Sutta found in the Majjhima Nikaya. I am sure there are other suttas supporting this as well. I also would like to quote: Sabbe sakhara anicca. Yada paaya passati, atha nibbindati dukkhe; esa maggo visuddhiya. Audio: http://host.pariyatti.org/dwob/dhammapada_20_277.mp3 Impermanent are all compounded things. When one perceives this with true insight, then one becomes detached from suffering; this is the path of purification. Dhammapada 20.277 It is very difficult for one to see the impermanence of things withoug samatha and vipassanna meditation. May you be well, happy & peaceful. Mettacittena Jonathan writes: Thank you to my friend for adding this pertanent and practical insight! With Metta, Jonathan #96693 From: "jonathancoppola" Date: Fri Mar 20, 2009 8:45 pm Subject: Answers to Sarah's questions jonathancoppola Dear Sarah and members of the DSG, Sarah questions: May I ask where you live or encourage you to add a little more about your background? Jonathan replies... I live in an efficiency apartment (150 square feet) that is mostly empty in Baltimore MD USA. I possess very little, except for the bare necessities as far as clothes and kitchen gear, and a foam mattress to sleep on. In addition to those, I own only my computer and desk (no TV or radio) and my internet use is limited to the learning and sharing of Dhamma. I have chosen to live this way in an attempt to create an atmosphere as close to a Zendo/retreat center as possible. This leads me to my background in Buddhist studies. I have spent time studying many different philosophical texts. Starting in 1978 with American contemporary philosophers such as Werner Erhard and Richard Bach (High School) I went to Ram Dass, Leo Buscaglia, Sam Keen, Robert Bly, Alan Cohen, Wayne Dyer, and Deepok Chopra (post 1985) Later, I was led to ancient teachers such as Lao Tzu, Confucius, Basho, Buson, Haikuen (around 1999) and in 2005 the teachings of contemporary Buddhist masters like Shunryu Suzuki, and H.H. the 14th Dalai Lama. While in the library or bookstore (2007), I ran across a copy of The Dhammapada, or "Supreme Path of Virtue". I was immediately drawn to the simple, yet profound directions toward a more spiritual and meaningful life. After studying the Dhammapada almost exclusively for very close to two years, I am now beginning to study the Digha Nikaya and the Samyutta Nikaya. I have held the first five or "lay precepts" for the past ten years, and have had a daily meditation (which includes Tai Chi and Chi Kung) and yoga practice during that time as well. I am a lay person, and have a monogamous relationship with my girlfriend, whom I go to visit on my bicycle (my car!!!) I have volunteered a lot of my time throughout my life, and have gained much gratification from this. I am grateful that you have asked about my background, and if yourself, or anyone would like to enquire about me in the future, or have any questions, you may contact me through his group, or at: jonathancoppola@... In addition, I welcome suggestions, comments, and admonishmnets as long as they are communicated in a respectful tone. Once again, thank you very much for your interest in me. This interst is mutual, and I look forward to getting to know Sarah, and all DSG members through the vehicle of this group! With Metta! Joanthan #96694 From: "colette" Date: Fri Mar 20, 2009 7:26 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Secluded Place. Discussions with Khun Sujin in Bangkok, 1976 (1).. ksheri3 Hi Lucas and Nina, VEry good technique, raising past discusions and seeing them in a new light or perspective! While the "clenching of teeth" may be a sign of effort I'd like to comment on the relationship of samskaras (actions) and their perceived CAUSATION. Back in the early 1980s I hitch hiked across the USA, from coast to coast, twice. As I made my way back across from the West coast to the East coast for a third time I stopped in New Orleans where I enjoyed a good year and half resting. While playing dominos one day I couldn't understand where this certain noise was coming from. For at least 30 minutes it bugged me. Finally, I had to make a comment about the noise only to find that one of the other players was "grinding his teeth" and focus of chewing his own teeth was making the noise. What are we to say about the Buddha's application of "grinding his teeth" as a means of focusing his deliberate and intentional concentration upon his samjna and his samskara? When we see that the Buddha grinded his teeth in his (the Buddha's) means of manifestation, are we to then automatically and robotically adopt this behavior on a daily basis until we grind our teeth into nothingness? What are the psychological characteristics of a person that grinds their teeth? Is it an obsession or is it obsessive? Is grinding of the teeth a requirement of the AGGREGATES? Are HOUSES OF CARDS the same as CASTLES MADE OF SAND? "All in all it's just another brick in the wall" Pink Floyd.<....> Which again causes me to restate the question concerning the necessity of "Grinding teeth" and add Why is it important enough to be such a point that people would need to know about the Buddha and the path the Buddha took? Did the path the Buddha employed exist ONLY BECAUSE THE BUDDHA GRINDED HIS TEETH or did the path exist without the Buddha grinding his teeth? Can we ask about the Buddha's other bodily functions and their importance to enlightenment? <...> toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "szmicio" wrote: > > Dear Nina > very useful comments. I remember this "Sutta on the Removal of Distracting Thoughts" because it's the hard one. <...> #96695 From: "colette" Date: Fri Mar 20, 2009 4:31 pm Subject: "Watch me pull a rabbit out of my hat" Bullwinkle or is it Houdini? ksheri3 to follow up on Alex's misinterpretations about Sarah's thoughts: "FEELING, Bhikkhu, is not the Self. If feeling, Bhikkhu, were the Self, then feeling would not Tend to sickness. And one could say of feeling, 'Thus let feeling be thus for me, let feeling not be thus for me' 'But, Bhikkhu, in as much as feeling is not the self, that is why feeling tends to sickness' And one cannot say of feeling, 'Thus let feeling be thus for me, let feeling not be thus for me." Anattalakkhana -Sutta "Namo Tassa Bhagabv ato Arahato Sammasambuddhassa" ? That Sutta goes through "Mattter", "Feeling", "Perception", "Mental Formation" and "Consciousness", all in the same manner of excluding them from the "self". toodles, colette #96696 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Mar 21, 2009 12:27 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Disappointed in Ven Thich Nhat Hanh buddhatrue Hi Robert and Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Robert - > > In a message dated 3/20/2009 4:50:12 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > rjkjp1@... writes: > > Hi Howard, > what do you think of where he says at times the Buddha incarnates as a cloud > or rock. > -------------------------------------------- > I missed that gem! > --------------------------------------------- > > That people actually believe this nonsense is more worrying. > --------------------------------------------- > Unfortunately, the longer I live, the less surprised I am at what people > will believe. > ---------------------------------------------- I don't think that this is a fair assessment of Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh. First, this is a gross oversimplification of the Dharmakaya concept (the three bodies of the Buddha). It isn't that the Buddha will "incarnate" as a rock or a cloud, it is that the Buddha will cause those material objects to manifest if the need arises. Maybe this link will help explain some: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dharma_body This idea doesn't contradict Theravada, it is just beyond the scope of Theravada. The Buddha taught the path to enlightenment and that's it. He didn't teach anything more and the left a lot out- by his own admission (leaves in the palm metaphor). The Dharmakaya theory is to explain the nature of the existence of the Buddha after paranibbana (an almost taboo subject in Theravada). Personally, I don't believe or disbelieve the theory because I have no idea. It is something beyond my range of understanding. However, I do know, that there are many things of a mystical nature that Theravada dismisses without thorough investigation. Metta, James #96697 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Mar 21, 2009 12:42 am Subject: Movie Recommendation- Mr. Magorium's Wonder Emporium buddhatrue Hi All, I recently recommended the movie 'Joe Black' as a meditation on the mindfulness of death. I now have another recommendation, and it comes from a rather strange source as it is a children's movie, 'Mr. Magorium's Wonder Emporium'. : http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0457419/ Surprisingly, the entire movie revolves around the upcoming death of Mr. Magorium and how his death impacts those closest to him. Mr. Magorium faces death like a true Buddhist, with equanimity and calm, and he even states that he may be going to a heaven-like place, a Shangra-la, or be reborn on earth as some other being. Those around him, however, are not so calm about his upcoming death and try to talk him out of it. Ultimately, they have to let go, he dies, and they have to move on with their lives. Not your typical children's movie! I highly recommend this movie as a means to consider more deeply Mindfulness of Death. Metta, James #96698 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Mar 21, 2009 5:26 am Subject: Rebirth-Linking Transmigration! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: What moves at death to the next life? Is it consciousness? No! since consciousness arise & cease right here, it cannot move anywhere! It is not continuous, but contiguous discrete mental states as pearls on a string. The prior moment of consciousness contains the properties that conditions the arising of the next moment of consciousness! These inherent properties are mainly craving for (conscious) sensing and craving for becoming into new being. If these cravings are present in the rebirth-linking moment of consciousness, then the next moment of consciousness will arise immediately after the death moment, but now in another location and body, which qualities (or lack of) indeed also are conditioned by properties within the rebirth-linking moment of consciousness… Example: If deluded ignorance is dominant in the rebirth-linking moment of consciousness, then an animal rebirth is to be expected. If harmonious peace and well earned settled mental calmness based on a long life of doing good are the dominant factors right in the rebirth-linking moment of consciousness, then a divine deva rebirth is to be expected. If anger, hostile enmity, envy and hate are dominant in the rebirth-linking moment of consciousness, rebirth in hell is to be expected... So what actually passes on is CAUSALITY: That is conditioning factors or forces! Nothing more! No form, feeling, perception, construction, or consciousness passes on. No "Self, I, Me, Body, Identity, or Ego" passes on, because they never really existed in the first place, so how can they ever then pass on?!? The classic example is the 2 candles: Candle A is in flame. (=Dying individuality) This is then used to light or ignite Candle B (=Reborn individuality). By this very ignition the flame of Candle A is extinguished… Only candle B is now burning: What was now passed on!?! Is the flame of Candle B now the SAME, as the flame of Candle A? Not so. Candle B burns by its own flame, but it was turned on by flame A! Is the flame of Candle B now DIFFERENT from the flame of Candle A? Not really so either. Since Candle B started burning from the flame A! What is Reborn?: Neither the SAME nor ANOTHER! What am ‘I’ & ‘Person’?: Neither the SAME nor ANOTHER! Not a fixed entity, but a streaming process of ever renewed arisings and ceasings of impersonal mental and physical states… Just moments of name-&-form passes on! In brevity: Question: What passes on at death? Answer: The forces or streams of: Ignorance, Greed, & Hate, and derivatives thereof, passes on at death and also in every moment of this life! One is reborn not only at death, but at every conscious moment of life itself also... Re-arising millions of times per second! Neither as the same nor another... Regarding Buddhist Theory of Rebirth-Linking (patisandhi) see also: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/DPPN/wtb/n_r/patisandhi.htm Kamma and Rebirth: Nyanatiloka Thera: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nyanatiloka/wheel394.html#ch2 <...> Have a nice re-arised new day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samāhita, Sri Lanka * http://What-Buddha-Said.net Rebirth-Linking Transmigration! #96699 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Sat Mar 21, 2009 6:21 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Disappointed in Ven Thich Nhat Hanh epsteinrob Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Robert - > > In a message dated 3/20/2009 10:58:17 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > epsteinrob@... writes: > > > > > I think that it is in the most mystically magical works like The Lotus > Sutra, which many people around the world swear by as a kind of ultimate Bible > that can bring magical effects, that Mahayana and Theravada reach their biggest > divide. > ---------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Yes. > ---------------------------------------------- > > Although there are magical elements throughout the Tipitaka as well, they > don't seem to get to the point of suggesting that Buddha's prime function is as > a kind of magical wishing gem or Godhead as you note above. > > I think that in some of the more brilliant analyses of how perception and > mind take in a reality that is not really as substantial or self-related as it > seems, such as the Avatamsaka and Lankavatara Sutras, there is much more of a > continuum between some of the Theravada analyses and these Mahayana texts > that dissect the nature of how realities manifest for us. > ------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > I agree, though more so with regard to the first of these two. > ------------------------------------------------- Actually, I left out the chief one I had in mind - which is the Surangama. Wonder what you think of what I think is a brilliant analysis of the reality of perception. Best, Robert #96700 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Sat Mar 21, 2009 6:42 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Disappointed in Ven Thich Nhat Hanh epsteinrob Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: Robert E. wrote: > On the other hand, I also treat such reports with skepticism. > -------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Which amounts to not believing in them. We may not KNOW they are false, > but we have no basis for believing them. > ------------------------------------------------- We may be getting into a little bit of terminology-splitting here, but I don't think skepticism is the same as disbelief. I think skepticism holds judgment in abeyance, while not adopting a belief in something that hasn't been adequately demonstrated or proven. I would think of it as a suspension of belief, awaiting evidence, rather than outright disbelief, which draws a conclusion. That's how I mean it anyway. I have not decided whether such things are true or not, and I consider my own culture's scientific viewpoint to be selective, local and recent and therefore must also be treated with some withholding of belief as well. I trust science's explanation of combustion, or how planets orbit and the forces involved, but I don't trust its view of spiritual events, of which it knows approximately nothing. > I try to take the view that I neither believe nor totally disbelieve things > that I haven't personally witnessed or experienced. Kalama Sutta would > probably agree with me on this....? > ---------------------------------------------------- > Mmm, not so sure. I see the Kalama Sutta as pertaining to restricting > the bases for belief. I don't view it as suggesting that one afford > belief-weight to unknown implausibles equal to that afforded unknown plausibles. I am not proposing that we give belief-weight to implausibles, only that we: a/ don't totally dismiss them if we don't personally know whether they are true or false; and b/ realize that our own sense of implausibility also arises within a paradigm, and is not absolute. I don't spend my time wondering whether unicorns exist, but I do think it is useful for the flexibility of the mind to not close the door on any possibility, even if it is not worth thinking about at the moment. We can > randomly propose infinitely many implausible assertions (like an invisible > mother ship resting on the roof of my house, or the inhabitants of Atlantis > having set up shop on the far side of the moon), and there is good reason to > withhold belief with regard to these or even to outright disbelieve in such (so > long as it is realized that disbelieving is not the same as > knowing-to-be-false). I agree with this generally, but I do think that those things that are mentioned in Buddhist scripture should be looked at a little differently than any random nonsense one can come up with out of nowhere. Buddhists subscribe to the primacy of the four elements - that is certainly not a way that modern science would talk about things. One has to not only look at the context of such assertions, but of what they are trying to afford for the practitioner. Is there a reason for including these statements, even if we conclude that they are improbable? I just say, keep an open mind, while not being voluble. It's a delicate balance to keep the mind flexible enough to not only refrain from buying into what seems to be mythological nonsense, but also to keep from buying into one's own paradigm of the present culture. I think it would be an interesting exercise to try to hold these two possibilities in mind at the same time, as I do: a/ The material world is real, solid and substantial, and when we die, our mental processes cease. b/ The material world is a holographic projection of mind, and doesn't actually exist apart from the projection of consciousness. If you can consider that either of these may be possible, your mind is flexible in my judgment. [Or, you may say, psychotic. :-))) ] To suspend allegiance to any view, as the Buddha advises, is a pretty radical task. It's almost as difficult as 'turning the other cheek,' which doesn't seem to be too popular either.... These Masters are awfully demanding. Best, Robert E. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - #96701 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Mar 21, 2009 8:23 am Subject: Re: Are KS Folks Less Intelligent Than Monkeys? I Hope Not. jonoabb Hi Phil > Ph: As you know based on AN 3.2 I value the definition of the wise person as he who behaves well. Not wishing to quibble, but the sutta mentions good conduct of the body, speech and mind*; this is more than what is generally understood as behaviour. If you want to equate behaving well in body, speech and mind with understanding of the teaching that is unique to the Buddha, you may do so, and you may be right. I do value hearing the deep teachings and clearly there are much deeper definitions of wisdom than the kind I aspire to. The same goes for most of us: enlightenment is not seen as being within reach in this lifetime, based on the present (meagre) level of understanding. (By the way, did you know that the strictest definition of all is that anyone other than the arahant, anyone who still has rebirth, is a fool! Can't remember where I saw it, a sutta in SN I think, but there are many degrees of wisdom and foolishness, clearly.) That's interesting. Yes, I can see how the worldling could be classified as a fool i.e., lacking in wisdom. > Ph: As I said, I am not motivated by the aspects of the sutta that point at deep understanding. It is good to hear them, but my understanding is where it is at. I think it takes a certain level of understanding to appreciate where one's understanding is at (for many, the level of understanding is overestimated). > Ph: Well, again, you may be right, but Bhikkhu Bodhi's explanation of the sutta, and the understanding that would come to me even without hearing his explanation is different than yours. I know Bhikkhu Bodhi is not the Buddha and there is no definite reason that his understanding should be better than yours, but his explanation and my understanding is that the sutta should be understood in a progressive way. I would agree with you and Bhikkhu Bodhi on the progressive nature of the blessings set out in the sutta. But this does not of course mean that understanding can only be developed if and when other levels of kusala have been perfected or improved first (not that you're saying that). > One thing that always puzzles me is that you folks fail to understand that even in the aspects of Dhamma that are *not* particular to the Buddha, there is a much deeper and more mind-changing (ie kusala promoting) aspect of moral training than can be found in any other religion. You always discount it, demand to know "where in what you are saying is the deep teaching particular to the Buddha" in so many words, suggest (Ken does anyways) that I am a closet Xtian or should consider Xtnty. I can assure you the thought has never crossed my mind ;-)) Jon *AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta Characterized (by Action) Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu PTS: A i 102 "A person endowed with three things is to be recognized as a wise person. Which three? Good bodily conduct, good verbal conduct, good mental conduct. A person endowed with these three things is to be recognized as a wise person." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.002.than.html #96702 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Mar 21, 2009 10:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Secluded Place. Discussions with Khun Sujin (5) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, Part 5: Sharpening Pa~n~naa "If there is no development of right understanding at this moment, we cannot hope to have it in the other place." ***** Sujin: Realities are realities but the perfect understanding of the characteristics of realities as no-self has to be developed and directly experienced. That's why one doesn't have to change [the] place to develop right understanding. If there is no development of right understanding at this moment, we cannot hope to have it in the other place. Nina S(?): Wouldn't the conditions be different in another place? Sujin: Conditions for a very few types of realities, but not all that can help one to eliminate the clinging to the self. Nina S (?): You say there's no need to go anywhere. If you go somewhere else... Sujin: But you see you have [an] intention to go there and you have [an] intention to develop right understanding of some particular type of naama and ruupa because you know that is the right place to condition certain types of naama or ruupa that you want to be aware of. That is not enough to sharpen pa~n~naa to be keen to the degree that it can eliminate the idea of self from the other moments like at this moment. Nina S (?): Not enough, but it could be a support, couldn't it? Sujin: You think that it's a support all the time, but when you come back you can know whether it's a support or not. So if we can be aware of this moment, it's the perfect way to be aware of any type of naama and ruupa, no matter [if it's] in the secluded place. You can be aware of reality now and you can have no attachment or clinging to reality now, so that you can be sure you will have no clinging or attachment to those objects then. That's why it takes more than a hundred lives to develop pa~n~naa. Some lives one may be a monk and some lives lay people. Some lives in secluded places and some lives in very busy places. And one cannot know where one is ready for enlightenment - in [a] secluded place or not in [a] secluded place – like the lives of the Buddha's disciples. Metta, Sarah ======= #96703 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Mar 21, 2009 10:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Secluded Place. Discussions with Khun Sujin (6) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, Part 6: Different Accumulations, Different Lifestyles "What is the purpose of developing satipa.t.thaaana – pa~n~naa or tranquillity?" ***** Vince: Khun Sujin, would there be any benefit in seclusion? Sujin: For what kind of life? V: Mainly for bhikkhus... S: [The] bhikkhu's life is different from the lay [person's] life, is that right? V: The fact that bhikkhus are in a position to go into seclusion - I don't think it's for the sake of the rules. It's more that a bhikkhu is more in a position to do it. The Buddha was in a position to suggest they go into seclusion, whereas a lay person has a family and that aspect wouldn't be taught to a lay person. S: But what is the purpose of developing satipa.t.thaaana – pa~n~naa or tranquillity? We have to study the purpose of developing satipa.t.thaana first of all. The purpose of developing satipa.t.thaana is to develop pa~n~naa, right understanding. So we are different even among the lay people. Lay people are different. We have different lives, different in each moment, no matter how many people (there are) in this world or the other world, in each moment, different accumulations. There cannot be the same accumulations in two people at all. So if pa~n~naa does not see oneself and one's accumulations perfectly as no-self at all, how can pa~n~naa eliminate the idea of self from naama and ruupa which are conditioned by one's own accumulations? So for monks, they have different accumulations from lay people, is that right? And amongst monks, they have different accumulations also. That's why even in the Buddha's time, there were monks in the forest and monks not in the forest. ***** Metta, Sarah ====== #96704 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Mar 21, 2009 11:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] truth and prepared seats sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, --- On Fri, 20/3/09, szmicio wrote: >There is only one citta at a time which experiences its object. Can you reminds us about diffrent kinds of conditions which are involved in daily life? Maybe Sarah could help? ... S: Well, I think the most obvious is object condition. Without an object, there'd be no citta. As you say, each citta experience an object - whether it be a reality or a concept. Natural decisive support condition is very pervasive. Without this condition, we wouldn't think or like or dislike as we do now. Kamma condition is the main cause for each moment of vipaka, for each moment of seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and touching now. It's also the cause of all the kammaja rupas of the body now. The eye-sense and other senses, the masculinity/femininity, the heart-base, the life-faculty - all kinds of rupas of the living being arising and falling away all the time conditioned by (past) kamma. And then root condition is given first; as the unwholesome roots haven't been eradicated, there are bound to be countless moments of lobha, dosa and moha in our daily life. However, because of the wholesome roots, all kinds of kusala can arise and be developed. Those are my quick thoughts about common conditions affecting the namas and rupas arising now. What are your thoughts, Lukas? Metta, Sarah ======= #96705 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Mar 21, 2009 11:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: effort. sarahprocter... Hi Rob Ep, --- On Fri, 20/3/09, Robert Epstein wrote: >Yes, it's kind of fun to see how unpredictable it really all is, compared to the expectation in the mind. I like your story of Jon's Tsunami alert. Sometimes the unpredictable nature of conditions can create quite a circus for us, can't it? Life is pretty funny if you look at it that way. ... S: Yes, we have a lot of expectations, but never know from moment to moment. I think the more understanding there is of realities, the less caught up we are in the various 'dilemmas' and worldly conditions. (Btw, I should add that there was no tsunami, but at least they've had a practice run.) ... >Both times in Nepal I went to Sarnath and saw the Buddha's "Deer Park." I have a nice feeling about that place... :) .... S: Yes, I've always found it a very special place. You'd be (pleasantly) surprised by all the excavation work that has gone on there in the last 20 years. It's an incredible site. ... >I will say that despite the unreality of past moments, they can make a pleasant mental activity when not causing suffering through attachment. For me, those memories are very pleasant, though I would like to go back sometime. ... S: This is ordinary, common attachment (which we all have) as opposed to extraordinary attachment which can be very harmful. So whilst dreaming on, we can also develop right understanding and awareness of the dhammas involved! Hope you get back to Sarnath, one day, but either way, it's just another citta.... Metta, Sarah ======= #96706 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Mar 21, 2009 12:00 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Secluded Place. Discussions with Khun Sujin in Bangkok, 1976 (2) sarahprocter... Hi Rob Ep, --- On Fri, 20/3/09, Robert Epstein wrote: > >S: "So the best support is to be aware immediately - not to have [the] intention to use other things to support vipassanaa or satipa.t.thaana. Ten hours that you try to have some kusala to support satipa.t.thaana [or] one or two or three or ten moments of awareness - which is better?" > > L: Lobha is very tricky ;> > .... > S: Very true! > > Please add any of your comments anytime. R: >I know that wasn't meant for me, but forgive me if I jump in and add my usual comment. ... S: Any posts I write are for all, including you! >One doesn't necessarily need to spend "down time" of any kind, whether it is sitting around the kitchen or sitting in meditation, "trying" to use secondary practices to support the arising of satipatthana. One can use that time to directly look at the reality of what is arising now, as you suggest. They are not mutually exclusive in my view, as some seem to think. Or maybe almost all here seem to think. .... S: Whether it be "trying" to "use secondary practices" or "using the time to directly look at the reality", both suggest a kind of *doing*, rather than just being aware naturally without any special *looking*. ... >When I am washing the dishes, sometimes the natural "samatha" of the dish-washing focuses me on the continued sensations of moving the sponge around, packing the dishes into the dishwasher, etc., and one becomes aware of certain direct moments of what is being seen or felt. .... S: Is this by *focussing* with an intention to be aware, or just naturally, without any wish or desire for such awareness? .... >These are very clear. Samatha or even just plain old relaxation can sometimes make space for the direct perception of the moment, in my view..... .... S: I think that samatha is very different from the calm or quiet or ordinary relaxation that we're used to thinking of. For a starter, at each moment of kusala, whether it be dana, sila or bhavana, there is samatha (calm) at such a moment. Most of what we think of as calm or space or relaxation is in fact a kind of attachment. That's common, but panna has to know the difference. For example, when we go for a walk in the woods, do our yoga practice or listen to soft music, it seems peaceful, but it's not samatha. .... >I think that while samatha does not directly lead to vipassana, it can sometimes be a condition for sati or vipassana. ... S: Actually, any dhamma can be a condition for sati and vipassana. If there is strong attachment now, it can also be the object of awareness and in this way is a condition! Thanks for your input, Rob, which I find helpful. Please continue to feel very free to disagree with what I (or anyone else) says! Metta, Sarah ======= #96707 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Mar 21, 2009 12:27 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] K. Sujin's Survey, p.147 - All Equal/Don't Own Anything sarahprocter... Dear Rob Ep, I also like the paragraph you quoted and I appreciate your own comments on the topic. I'll look forward to any more you select and comment on. --- On Fri, 20/3/09, Robert Epstein wrote: >She says that we are all equal and really don't own anything, as we can only enjoy our treasured objects at the moments when we are directly perceiving or thinking of them. The rest of the time they don't exist. In this way, all people are equal, they only have the momentary cittas, and don't really "have" anything. .... S: Exactly, not homes or jobs or computers or even family members! .... >A quote: "We should carefully consider what our possessions we believe we own really are. The moments we do not see them we can merely think about them, but we believe that we own many things. However, of what use can these things be to us during the moments we do not see or touch them? When the characteristics of paramattha dhammas have been understood as they are: not a being, person or self, it will be realised that paramattha dhammas are the same for all people, and that in that respect all people are equal. ... The seeing-consciousnes s and what appears to seeing, visible object, do not belong to anybody. Therefore, we should not take anything for "I" or "mine." " ... S: And in this way we can understand that seeing and its visible object is no more special for a billionaire in the States than for a beggar in India. Just paramattha dhammas of no particular importance at all. ... R:> This is a very nice and clear description of the nature of anatta, I think. I found this not only a good description of how we are really without the support of our comforting objects in a universe of momentary experiences, but also a very nice social philosophy of equality that grows out of this truth. >My own reaction: No where to stand, nothing to acquire. Not only "can't you take it with you" to "Heaven," as we think in the West, but you can't have it with you even now, except for a fleeting moment. So why be attached to dhammas, which are non-self? ... S: Exactly! Nicely put. This is why it's the understanding of dhammas which leads to detachment and relinquishment. Thanks for sharing. Metta, Sarah ======= #96708 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Mar 21, 2009 12:46 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] "Watch me pull a rabbit out of my hat" Bullwinkle or is it Houdini? sarahprocter... Hi Colette, (& Alex), --- On Sat, 21/3/09, colette wrote: >to follow up on Alex's misinterpretations about Sarah's thoughts: "FEELING, Bhikkhu, is not the Self. If feeling, Bhikkhu, were the Self, then feeling would not Tend to sickness. And one could say of feeling, 'Thus let feeling be thus for me, let feeling not be thus for me' 'But, Bhikkhu, in as much as feeling is not the self, that is why feeling tends to sickness' And one cannot say of feeling, 'Thus let feeling be thus for me, let feeling not be thus for me." Anattalakkhana -Sutta ... >That Sutta goes through "Mattter", "Feeling", "Perception" , "Mental Formation" and "Consciousness" , all in the same manner of excluding them from the "self". ... S: Please continue "to follow up on Alex's misinerpretations" about my thoughts anytime:-). Perhaps you'll be able to help put him straight:-)) Metta, Sarah ======= #96709 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Mar 21, 2009 1:07 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Answers to Sarah's questions sarahprocter... Dear Jonathan, Many thanks for giving us your interesting detailed answers which I enjoyed reading. --- On Sat, 21/3/09, jonathancoppola wrote: >While in the library or bookstore (2007), I ran across a copy of The Dhammapada, or "Supreme Path of Virtue". I was immediately drawn to the simple, yet profound directions toward a more spiritual and meaningful life. After studying the Dhammapada almost exclusively for very close to two years, I am now beginning to study the Digha Nikaya and the Samyutta Nikaya. ... S: Which translations are you using? I'll look forward to anything you wish to share. If you'd like to go back and share any of the earlier Dhp verses with your comments anytime, please do too - (but one at a time would be best). ... >Once again, thank you very much for your interest in me. This interst is mutual, and I look forward to getting to know Sarah, and all DSG members through the vehicle of this group! ... S: Thank you too. You'll discover that we're really from all over the world and have very diverse backgrounds, but with a common interest in the Dhamma. Jon (Jonothan) and I, live in Hong Kong, Nina in Holland, Rob Ep, Colette & Howard in the States, Lukas in Poland, James in Taiwan, Ven Samahita in Sri Lanka - well those are the posters on the current message page in DSG! Thanks again! Sarah ====== #96710 From: "jonathancoppola" Date: Sat Mar 21, 2009 1:31 pm Subject: Reach the highest levels of virtue! jonathancoppola Dhammapada entry #183/21/2009 Dear friendsBelow please find a part of a series of postings that will include entries from the Dhammapada. Along with these will be my comments. I encourage you to reflect on these entries, and post comments of your own here or at: jonathancoppola@... A copy of all the postings is available upon request. The source is: The Dhammapada, Translated by Venerable Ananda Maitraya, Parallex Press, 1995. Dhammapada 4 Flowers 11. The scent of flowers is carried No farther than the wind allows, Neither the sandalwood, tagar, nor jasmine. But the fragrance of the good deeds of good men spreads To the ends of the earth, in all directions, Regardless of the wind. 12. The aroma of sandalwood , tagar, Lotus, or vassiki is excellent. Superior to these is the fragrance of Right speech and right way of earning one's living. 13. The scent of tagar and sandalwood may be barely detectable, Whereas the fragrance of the virtuous Reaches the highest levels, Both among gods and men. 14. Mara, the tempter, can never find Where the enlightened ones are, For they live mindfully and in perfect freedom Through perfect knowledge. 15. Just as a sweet smelling lotus blooms Beside the highway upon a heap of filth, So does the disciple of the perfect Buddha Rise above those bound blindly To the limitations of the world. Comments: 11-13. When we practice "good deeds", and are "good men [people] practicing right speech and right way of earning one's living," as well as being "virtuous" our acts permeate the lives of those around us like the fragrance of sweet smelling flowers. Our reputation improves, and we are respected by our friends, family, colleagues, and sometimes strangers. Our character reaches the "highest level" as we reap the benefits of increased self-esteem, inner peace, and contentment as well as fulfilling friendships with others who share our high morals, values, and ethics. 14. We can avoid that which seems alluring, which is actually painful and seems positive, which is really destructive (Mara) by practicing mindfulness. This mindfulness is developed through calm abiding meditation, and can aid us in defeating temptation throughout our day. We develop "perfect knowledge" of the way things truly are through contemplating the karmic result of our own past thoughts, words, and actions, in addition to realizing the empty, illusory and temporal world around us (vispassana or insight meditation). 15. Finally, becoming sighted in a world of blindness and rising above the limitations of the world is not an easy task. All of us have to find our way individually, for as the Buddha points out, "No one can purify another". Superior inner strength, perseverance, and effort are necessary, as well as self admonishment. Having love, forgiveness, and compassion for ourselves is also quintessential in our times of self defeat. In my own practice, I have continued to find self defeat while attempting to refrain from ANY thought, word or deed that will ultimately cause myself or others suffering. Instead of giving up, I continue to contemplate the deep significance of the Dhamma, the compassion of the Buddha, and the merits of the supreme spiritual community, the Sangha. Having done this, I am inspired to try again and again. Reach the highest levels of virtue! With Metta, Jonathan #96711 From: "jonathancoppola" Date: Sat Mar 21, 2009 1:47 pm Subject: Hello Sarah... jonathancoppola Hello Sarah and DSG members! Sarah asked me: Which translations of the Digha Nikaya and the Samyutta Nikaya are you using? I am using Maurice Walshe, and Bhikkhu Bodhi respectively. These were suggested to me by Bhikkhu Samahita. Much gratitude to him... In my studies of the Dhammapada I have used the following: Wisdom of the Buddha the Unabridged Dhammapada Translated and edited by Max Muller, Dover Publications, 2000 The Dhammapada, Verses on The Way: A new translation of the teachings of the Buddha, With A guide to Reading the Text, Glenn Wallis, Modern library, 2004 Dhammapada or Path of Wisdom translated by Sanderson Beck http://ariyavansa.googlepages.com/dhammapada.html And most recently and for my posts: The Dhammapada Translated by Ananda Maitreya, Foreword by Thich Nhat Hanh, Revised by Rose Kramer, Parallax Press, 1995 Thank you for letting me know where certain members are from. I look forward to learning from the input of others, and sharing thoughts of my own. If you or anyone else would like a copy of all the earlier posts in Word format, all you need to do is ask, and I will send them along. With Metta, Jonathan #96712 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Mar 21, 2009 1:50 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddhist gods sarahprocter... Dear Thomas, Thanks for posting another question. --- On Fri, 20/3/09, thomaslaw03 wrote: From: thomaslaw03 >These are many gods/goddesses/ spiritual beings accepted or recognized in Pali Buddhism. Does anyone here know of how many, and of what types are mentioned in the texts and in Theravada tradition? Thank you. ... S: There are countless numbers of devas (gods) and 6 deva realms. Often we read about large numbers of devas listening to the Buddha and becoming enlightened too. Here are a few past messages I just found under 'Devas' in "Useful Posts" in the files by Christine and Htoo: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/28748 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/33388 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/43068 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/43069 The following is from the last one of Htoo's: H: "There are 6 deva realms. They are in hierchy structure. That is one is higher than another. These 6 deva realms are 1. catumahaaraajika deva bhumi 2. taavatimsaa deva bhumi 3. yaamaa deva bhumi 4. tusitaa deva bhumi 5. nimmanarati deva bhumi 6. paranimmita-vassavati deva bhumi The lowest among these 6 deva realms is catumahaaraajika deva bhumi. Here it will be explained. Catu means 'four'. Maha means 'great'. Raaja (raja) means 'king'. Raajika means 'at where king something ..' 'in where king something..' 'related to king's dwelling or king's activities'. Catumahajarika means 'where 4 great deva kings dwell and rule. This realm or bhumi is quite close to human realm and there are deva who are in close connection with human beings even though human beings may or may not know their existence. Tavatimsa is made up of the words 'ta' and 'tim'. Ta means 'three' and 'tim' means 'thirty'. So tavatimsa means '33'. There are 6 deva realms even though there maybe different deva population. Even if this name 'tavatimsa' did not arise there is a deva realm which is 'tavatimsa deva bhumi'. Once Bodhisatta was a human being and there he did good deeds along with 33 people. After their death in human realm all were reborn at 'tavatimsa deva bhumi'. Because of this its name become 'tavatimsa deva bhumi'. Above these 2 deva realms is yaamaa deva bhumi, which does have higher sensuality than 2 lower ones. Above this deva bhumi is tusitaa deva bhumi and it is higher than yaamaa deva bhumi. Catumaharajika devas do have fixed lifespan. They have 500 deva-years to live once they are reborn in catumaharajika deva realm. Higher and higher realms of deva have 4 times lifespan of their immediate underneath deva realm. Above tusitaa deva realm is nimmanarati deva realm. Nimmita means 'created one'. Nimma means 'creation' and narati means 'enjoy'. These nimmanarati devas enjoy their own creation and they are free of 'the suffering of lower deva realms'. Paranimmita-vassavati deva realm is the highest of all 6 deva realms. Para means 'others'. These devas enjoy 'the sensualities that are created by lower deva realm called nimmanarati devas'. Devas do not have 'satti' or bravery. Lower devas dare not look up higher devas unless the higher ones allow. The exception is the lowest 2 deva realms. This is one of the points why tavatimsa is the place of deva meeting. Catumaharajika devas can access tavatimsa deva realm. But both catumaharajika devas and tavatimsa deva do have access to higher deva realms while all other devas have access to their lower deva realms. Sakka is the king of tavatimsa deva realms and he also has the power to rule catumaharajika devas. 4 catumaharika deva kings have to report to the tavatimsa deva king 'Sakka' on a regular basis." ***** S: I hope this helps. Any particular reason for your interest? Metta, Sarah ======== #96713 From: "szmicio" Date: Sat Mar 21, 2009 3:06 pm Subject: dosa szmicio dear friends What about dosa?? Its very painful. #96714 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Mar 21, 2009 3:36 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] K. Sujin's Survey, p.147 - All Equal/Don't Own Anything nilovg Dear Rob Ep, Op 20-mrt-2009, om 15:58 heeft Robert Epstein het volgende geschreven: > This is a very nice and clear description of the nature of anicca > and anatta, I think. I found this not only a good description of > how we are really without the support of our comforting objects in > a universe of momentary experiences, but also a very nice social > philosophy of equality that grows out of this truth. > > My own reaction: No where to stand, nothing to acquire. Not only > "can't you take it with you" to "Heaven," as we think in the West, > but you can't have it with you even now, except for a fleeting > moment. So why be attached to dhammas, which are non-self? ------ N: Very good summary. I just heard this morning a Thai MP3 about possessions. I especially appreciated the reminder about slave of money, in this time of economical crisis. ****** Nina. #96715 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Mar 21, 2009 3:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Disappointed in Ven Thich Nhat Hanh upasaka_howard Hi, Robert - In a message dated 3/21/2009 2:42:44 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, epsteinrob@... writes: Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: Robert E. wrote: > On the other hand, I also treat such reports with skepticism. > -------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Which amounts to not believing in them. We may not KNOW they are false, > but we have no basis for believing them. > ------------------------------------------------- We may be getting into a little bit of terminology-splitting here, but I don't think skepticism is the same as disbelief. --------------------------------------- No, it isn't disbelief but doubting to some degree. There are degrees including at least the following: knowing false < believing false < suspecting false < being neutral as to falsehood/truth < suspecting true < believing true < knowing true. ---------------------------------------- I think skepticism holds judgment in abeyance, while not adopting a belief in something that hasn't been adequately demonstrated or proven. ---------------------------------------- I think that skepticism tend to the left of that. --------------------------------------- I would think of it as a suspension of belief, awaiting evidence, rather than outright disbelief, which draws a conclusion. That's how I mean it anyway. I have not decided whether such things are true or not, and I consider my own culture's scientific viewpoint to be selective, local and recent and therefore must also be treated with some withholding of belief as well. I trust science's explanation of combustion, or how planets orbit and the forces involved, but I don't trust its view of spiritual events, of which it knows approximately nothing. > I try to take the view that I neither believe nor totally disbelieve things > that I haven't personally witnessed or experienced. Kalama Sutta would > probably agree with me on this....? > ---------------------------------------------------- > Mmm, not so sure. I see the Kalama Sutta as pertaining to restricting > the bases for belief. I don't view it as suggesting that one afford > belief-weight to unknown implausibles equal to that afforded unknown plausibles. I am not proposing that we give belief-weight to implausibles, only that we: a/ don't totally dismiss them if we don't personally know whether they are true or false; and b/ realize that our own sense of implausibility also arises within a paradigm, and is not absolute. -------------------------------------------------- I agree with you on these. Whatever isn't outright knowing must be provisional. ------------------------------------------------- I don't spend my time wondering whether unicorns exist, but I do think it is useful for the flexibility of the mind to not close the door on any possibility, even if it is not worth thinking about at the moment. --------------------------------------------------- But if a wager situation arose, how would you bet? That, I think, indicates where one stands. --------------------------------------------------- We can > randomly propose infinitely many implausible assertions (like an invisible > mother ship resting on the roof of my house, or the inhabitants of Atlantis > having set up shop on the far side of the moon), and there is good reason to > withhold belief with regard to these or even to outright disbelieve in such (so > long as it is realized that disbelieving is not the same as > knowing-to-be-false). I agree with this generally, but I do think that those things that are mentioned in Buddhist scripture should be looked at a little differently than any random nonsense one can come up with out of nowhere. Buddhists subscribe to the primacy of the four elements - that is certainly not a way that modern science would talk about things. One has to not only look at the context of such assertions, but of what they are trying to afford for the practitioner. Is there a reason for including these statements, even if we conclude that they are improbable? I just say, keep an open mind, while not being voluble. It's a delicate balance to keep the mind flexible enough to not only refrain from buying into what seems to be mythological nonsense, but also to keep from buying into one's own paradigm of the present culture. I think it would be an interesting exercise to try to hold these two possibilities in mind at the same time, as I do: a/ The material world is real, solid and substantial, and when we die, our mental processes cease. b/ The material world is a holographic projection of mind, and doesn't actually exist apart from the projection of consciousness. If you can consider that either of these may be possible, your mind is flexible in my judgment. [Or, you may say, psychotic. :-))) ] ---------------------------------------------- Of course each is possible! (And, yes, probably psychotic! ;-)) ---------------------------------------------- To suspend allegiance to any view, as the Buddha advises, is a pretty radical task. It's almost as difficult as 'turning the other cheek,' which doesn't seem to be too popular either.... These Masters are awfully demanding. Best, Robert E. ============================ With metta, Howard *(Anonymous) #96716 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Mar 21, 2009 3:14 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Disappointed in Ven Thich Nhat Hanh upasaka_howard Hi, Robert - In a message dated 3/21/2009 2:21:46 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, epsteinrob@... writes: Actually, I left out the chief one I had in mind - which is the Surangama. Wonder what you think of what I think is a brilliant analysis of the reality of perception. ============================ It's been years since I've read the Surangama Sutra, and I largely forget it. what I DO recall is that it deals a lot with hearing, and it considers hearing to be ongoing - a notion I find odd. With metta, Howard *(Anonymous) #96717 From: "szmicio" Date: Sat Mar 21, 2009 7:42 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] truth and prepared seats szmicio Dear Sarah > S: Well, I think the most obvious is object condition. Without an >object, there'd be no citta. As you say, each citta experience an >object - whether it be a reality or a concept. L: Yes. I forget about seeing and hearing. There is so many pleasant situations in life. > Natural decisive support condition is very pervasive. Without this >condition, we wouldn't think or like or dislike as we do now. L: Well I dont remember it now. Sanna can remeber, no one can control it. It's so natural that we foreget what we read. When there are conditions we remember. When there are conditions we forget. All so natural. just conditions. no one here or there. When there is citta no need to be concerned about anything. > Kamma condition is the main cause for each moment of vipaka, for each moment of seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and touching now. It's also the cause of all the kammaja rupas of the body now. The eye-sense and other senses, the masculinity/femininity, the heart-base, the life-faculty - all kinds of rupas of the living being arising and falling away all the time conditioned by (past) kamma. L: What about hearing and seeing? There is much more thinking with akusala. and there is no proper attention. Sarah I need to be reminded about realities. > And then root condition is given first; as the unwholesome roots haven't been eradicated, there are bound to be countless moments of lobha, dosa and moha in our daily life. However, because of the wholesome roots, all kinds of kusala can arise and be developed. L: I don't think about eradiction yet. I am not even a beginner. I didnt take even one step on this path. You right because of wholsome roots there can be kusala. because of unwholsome roots there can be akusala. So deep true. My best wishes Lukas P.s I remember, Sarah and never forget the first time you said me thinking thinks, just it. I'll never forget it. #96718 From: "colette" Date: Sat Mar 21, 2009 7:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] "Watch me pull a rabbit out of my hat" Bullwinkle or is it Houdini? ksheri3 HI Sarah, I'll try to give my interpretation of a "misconception" or a "misinterpretation" in your field but with the amoundt of subject matter that I go through and perceive that I have to go through, it's tremedous. For instance I'm amazed today by a Theosophical piece concerning Matraiya and whatcan be considered the Kagyu, the Yogacara, the Gelugpa, et al, schools of Tibetan Buddhism. It was written by a member of the Theosophical Society which I was a member of at one time and I ENJOYED GOING TO THEIR OLCOT LIBRARY ON A DAILY BASIS TO STUDY, back in the mid-80s. I'm astounded by the wisdom that people have concerning the not only the fundamentals, the premises, the foundations, of Buddhism but how they've progressed and changed over time. I'm glad that you weren't offended by my stance, position, since "offense" is what 99.9% of all peoples take to any stance, position, that I take, <...> Look, I adore finally being accepted after all these decades of "solitary confinement" but there's just sooooooo much to do, soooooo much to catch up on, soooooooo much to establish a "starting point" of the affliction which addicts the patient called society. At the moment I'm trying to figure out how this guy can so easily and so blithley refer to the Gelugpa and the Yogacara as well as another group that slips my focus, so easily as if they were all not monumental structures that have to be assessed indivudualy before lumping them all together into an AGGREGATE. I get sidetracked quite ofter and frequently but each sidetrack is nothing more than helping me to understand better the fullness and richness of the emptiness of everything, AGAIN, from an Ultimiate perspective. One of the papers I'm reading now is by DAvid Reigle concering this Jonangpa sect/school and the conceptions are rather astonishing since they relate so well to traditional dogma and ritual (aka religion) as well as "that which is unknown" or that which is DArk Matter or Dark Space, from a Physics perspective. I have been under the impression that my latest "deviation" was nothing more than an exhibition of the way people, others, reject or hate (please recall Lobha, Mosa, and Dosa), any and all deviations from the "BEATTEN PATH" or the Standard Operating Procedure, which is nothing more than a glorification of turning the human species into mechanical robots. I'm surprised and exstatic that another person found my thoughts of value. It's like last night on the Bill Maher HBO show where he and his guests were specifically focusing on "conditions" and "appearances" (hallucinations) that I have been focusing on (if you'd like to watch it you'll have to look for the portion that's marked by Sen. Bernie Sanders and actress Kerry Washington (I think) as guests although former SEcretary of STate Madeline Albrieght was one of the guests as well. It's a wonderful show and helps to remind me that I am not alone in a robotic and reprublican world of organized religious manufacture. Bless you dear for at least having the guts to say something to me. <...> toodels, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > > Hi Colette, (& Alex), > > --- On Sat, 21/3/09, colette wrote: > >to follow up on Alex's misinterpretations about Sarah's thoughts: > > "FEELING, Bhikkhu, is not the Self. <...> #96719 From: "Alex" Date: Sun Mar 22, 2009 12:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Secluded Place. Discussions with Khun Sujin in Bangkok (3) truth_aerator Dear Sarah and all, >sarah abbott wrote: > > > Dear Friends, > > Part 3 Developing Samatha in Sa.msaara > > "Samatha is wholesome like daana is wholesome, siila is wholesome >but it's not the way to eradicate akusala dhamma." I agree in the respect that samatha by *itself* and *without* right view isn't going to eradicate akusala dhamma. However, if one does vipassana after heavy samatha, the vipassana is going to be much more effective. Buddha (and many of his disciples) did reach Arhatship after 4th Jhana + insight work. Lets not forget that 4 Jhanas are part of a 8 fold noble path. You simply can't avoid them. Through heavy Jhana work the mind is fit, pliant, malleable, wieldy, without hindrances (which obstruct vision and feed ignorance) and capable of being worked on. One should make a determination to "let go of everything. Nothing is worth clinging to" etc., from a jhanically super powered mindfulness for stronger results. With metta, Alex #96720 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Sun Mar 22, 2009 6:38 am Subject: [dsg] Re: effort. epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hope you get back to Sarnath, one day, but either way, it's just another citta.... :-) Good reminder, of course. And fascinating, if you do look at the kinds of elements that are involved in invoking those images and feelings. Best, Robert E. - - - - - - - - - - - - - #96721 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Sun Mar 22, 2009 6:42 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Secluded Place. Discussions with Khun Sujin in Bangkok, 1976 (2) epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > > Hi Rob Ep, > > --- On Fri, 20/3/09, Robert Epstein wrote: > >When I am washing the dishes, sometimes the natural "samatha" of the dish-washing focuses me on the continued sensations of moving the sponge around, packing the dishes into the dishwasher, etc., and one becomes aware of certain direct moments of what is being seen or felt. > .... > S: Is this by *focussing* with an intention to be aware, or just naturally, without any wish or desire for such awareness? I can say at times that it just occurs naturally. It passes the dhamma test. :-)) > .... > >These are very clear. Samatha or even just plain old relaxation can sometimes make space for the direct perception of the moment, in my view..... > .... > S: I think that samatha is very different from the calm or quiet or ordinary relaxation that we're used to thinking of. For a starter, at each moment of kusala, whether it be dana, sila or bhavana, there is samatha (calm) at such a moment. Most of what we think of as calm or space or relaxation is in fact a kind of attachment. That's common, but panna has to know the difference. For example, when we go for a walk in the woods, do our yoga practice or listen to soft music, it seems peaceful, but it's not samatha. What makes it samatha? It seems to be a very mysterious object, if it is not an extension of natural relaxation and being at peace at a given moment. > .... > >I think that while samatha does not directly lead to vipassana, it can sometimes be a condition for sati or vipassana. > ... > S: Actually, any dhamma can be a condition for sati and vipassana. If there is strong attachment now, it can also be the object of awareness and in this way is a condition! > > Thanks for your input, Rob, which I find helpful. Please continue to feel very free to disagree with what I (or anyone else) says! Well, I appreciate that. We seem to have a nice friendship of disagreement, but there is some harmony there too. Also, a lot of my disagreement is a form of enquiry. Socrates got in trouble for that too! :-))) Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = = #96722 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Sun Mar 22, 2009 6:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] K. Sujin's Survey, p.147 - All Equal/Don't Own Anything epsteinrob --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > > Dear Rob Ep, > > I also like the paragraph you quoted and I appreciate your own comments on the topic. I'll look forward to any more you select and comment on. > > --- On Fri, 20/3/09, Robert Epstein wrote: > >She says that we are all equal and really don't own anything, as we can only enjoy our treasured objects at the moments when we are directly perceiving or thinking of them. The rest of the time they don't exist. In this way, all people are equal, they only have the momentary cittas, and don't really "have" anything. > .... > S: Exactly, not homes or jobs or computers or even family members! No not computers! That is cruel. Family members, well.... ;-) > .... > > >A quote: > "We should carefully consider what our possessions we believe we own really are. The moments we do not see them we can merely think about them, but we believe that we own many things. However, of what use can these things be to us during the moments we do not see or touch them? When the characteristics of paramattha dhammas have been understood as they are: not a being, person or self, it will be realised that paramattha dhammas are the same for all people, and that in that respect all people are equal. ... The seeing-consciousnes s and what appears to seeing, visible object, do not belong to anybody. Therefore, we should not take anything for "I" or "mine." " > ... > S: And in this way we can understand that seeing and its visible object is no more special for a billionaire in the States than for a beggar in India. Just paramattha dhammas of no particular importance at all. Of course, to end relative suffering one would have to be aware of that, which I guess is the Buddha's point in that area. > ... > > R:> This is a very nice and clear description of the nature of anatta, I think. I found this not only a good description of how we are really without the support of our comforting objects in a universe of momentary experiences, but also a very nice social philosophy of equality that grows out of this truth. > > >My own reaction: No where to stand, nothing to acquire. Not only "can't you take it with you" to "Heaven," as we think in the West, but you can't have it with you even now, except for a fleeting moment. So why be attached to dhammas, which are non-self? > ... > S: Exactly! Nicely put. > > This is why it's the understanding of dhammas which leads to detachment and relinquishment. > > Thanks for sharing. That is interesting. Thanks for your comments back. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = #96724 From: "colette" Date: Sat Mar 21, 2009 8:31 pm Subject: Bija ksheri3 Hi Group, I was taken by a post that simply read "Dosa" and then labeled it, dosa. I think I've gotta key concept here since I immediately questioned whether Dosa was/is a seed or if something other was is the seed which manifested Dosa. No Question! Dosa is a poison. Did Dosa exist before something other or did dosa exist because of something other? I'm still stuck on reducing or rationalizing this concept of Svabhava since it plays such an enormous part in the reality we are faced with today <....> I have always been big on this concept of Lobha Mosa and Dosa since I read, in the Abhidharma, that the Three Poisons are always present when negativity is present. Pardon me, but I just think it's absolutely ludicrous and as ignorant as hell to consider that the Three Poisons exist without athe absolute truth of Shunyata or Sunyata. I may be stretching it a bit but is it possible for the Three Poisons to exist without Shunyata/sunyata or vice versa? (Ocuh, Jimpa, don't go and preach to me about mixing systems, AGAIN, since I see it as an "all or knowthing" game which places me in the Bhuddisattva category and I'm not interested in the games that you learned scholars play with me concedrning your programming of dogma and my applications of life through the reality of shamanism, and don't even for a second try to rationalize that even one or two PROSTRATIONS is not a definition of DOGMA and the ritualistic behavior of a robot, a Computer Relay Terminal, a thought sent through electrical wires or, in Rupert Murdoch's case, a thought sent through the airwaves which no person can actually own and are therefore, PUBLIC DOMAIN.) #96725 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Sun Mar 22, 2009 6:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] K. Sujin's Survey, p.147 - All Equal/Don't Own Anything epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > I especially appreciated the reminder about slave of money, in this > time of economical crisis. That is a good point. Although we are much less poor than people around the world, we feel very insecure about our monies going down in quantity, even though most of us are still eating three meals a day [at least; or in my case, + snacks.] If we apply the idea of momentary experiences of rupas, including food, we can see how much of our caring about food, money, and worrying about loss is a fantasy, rather than a reality. Particularly for those of us who are so relatively well off, compared to so many places in the world. If we are not at peace with the constantly shifting nature of our reality here in samsara, there is insecurity no matter what level we are at in the world. Best, Robert = = = = = = = = #96726 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Sun Mar 22, 2009 7:35 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Disappointed in Ven Thich Nhat Hanh epsteinrob Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: Robert E. wrote: > I don't spend my time wondering whether unicorns exist, but I do think it is > useful for the flexibility of the mind to not close the door on any > possibility, even if it is not worth thinking about at the moment. > --------------------------------------------------- > But if a wager situation arose, how would you bet? That, I think, > indicates where one stands. > --------------------------------------------------- Good measure, if one is willing to take the bet. I would bet against unicorns without hesitation, but I wouldn't bet for or against rebirth, or life after death in some spiritual form. > We can > > randomly propose infinitely many implausible assertions (like an > invisible > > mother ship resting on the roof of my house, or the inhabitants of > Atlantis > > having set up shop on the far side of the moon), and there is good reason > to > > withhold belief with regard to these or even to outright disbelieve in > such (so > > long as it is realized that disbelieving is not the same as > > knowing-to-be-false). > > I agree with this generally, but I do think that those things that are > mentioned in Buddhist scripture should be looked at a little differently than any > random nonsense one can come up with out of nowhere. Buddhists subscribe to > the primacy of the four elements - that is certainly not a way that modern > science would talk about things. One has to not only look at the context of > such assertions, but of what they are trying to afford for the practitioner. > Is there a reason for including these statements, even if we conclude that > they are improbable? I just say, keep an open mind, while not being voluble. > It's a delicate balance to keep the mind flexible enough to not only refrain > from buying into what seems to be mythological nonsense, but also to keep > from buying into one's own paradigm of the present culture. > > I think it would be an interesting exercise to try to hold these two > possibilities in mind at the same time, as I do: > > a/ The material world is real, solid and substantial, and when we die, our > mental processes cease. > > b/ The material world is a holographic projection of mind, and doesn't > actually exist apart from the projection of consciousness. > > If you can consider that either of these may be possible, your mind is > flexible in my judgment. [Or, you may say, psychotic. :-))) ] > ---------------------------------------------- > Of course each is possible! (And, yes, probably psychotic! ;-)) > ---------------------------------------------- Well in my case it is more than probable! ;-0 Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = #96727 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Sun Mar 22, 2009 7:38 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Disappointed in Ven Thich Nhat Hanh epsteinrob Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Robert - > > In a message dated 3/21/2009 2:21:46 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > epsteinrob@... writes: > > Actually, I left out the chief one I had in mind - which is the Surangama. > Wonder what you think of what I think is a brilliant analysis of the reality > of perception. > ============================ > It's been years since I've read the Surangama Sutra, and I largely > forget it. what I DO recall is that it deals a lot with hearing, and it considers > hearing to be ongoing - a notion I find odd. The main point I got out of it is that our understanding of the senses and how they relate to a "reality" that we perceive is a mental construct that does not represent the actual process. And they explore this through each of the senses in great philosophical detail. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = #96728 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Mar 22, 2009 8:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Secluded Place. Discussions with Khun Sujin (7) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, Part 7 : Forest or City-life? "The Buddha doesn't encourage people just to stay in the forest, because [then] it's like tigers and lions which live in the forest without satipa.t.thaana." ***** Vince: I get the impression that the Buddha is actually encouraging monks to live in secluded areas. Sujin: That should be the monk's life. V: Why? S: Because if they do not have such accumulations, there would be no conditions to become monks. V: Why wouldn't it be just as good to live in a temple in the city or village? S: The Buddha himself couldn't force monks staying at a temple to go to the forest and the Buddha couldn't force the monks who stayed in the forest to come to the temple, but he told all monks that monks should live that way. V: Which way? S: Quietly. That should be the monk's life. V: I get the impression that it's an advantage and not just because one is in robes. You said before the Buddha encouraged people to go to seclusion. Why? S: Because to be able to stay alone in a quiet place, truly or really as one's accumulation, it shows that you have less attachment to sensuous objects. You can stay alone, by yourself, according to your real nature. V: That doesn't seem to be any reason to encourage people to go... S: The Buddha doesn't encourage people just to stay in the forest, because [then] it's like tigers and lions which live in the forest without satipa.t.thaana. What he encouraged most is to develop satipa.t.thaana, no matter where. If you can develop it in the forest, by your own nature, not by your desire to get results, then it indicates that you have less attachment to sensuous objects, which should be praised. To have less attachment to sensuous objects should be praised. ***** Metta, Sarah ====== #96729 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Mar 22, 2009 8:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Secluded Place. Discussions with Khun Sujin (8) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, Part 8: Seeing one's Accumulations - Perfectly. "One does not mind or care about [the] place anymore because satipa.t.thaana can arise anywhere." ***** Vince: I get the impression that the reason for seclusion - it's really complex, but the fact that virtue is a support for satipa.t.thaana and - while in seclusion, there are more conditions for virtue, there's more restraint through the sense doors. S: By suppression or by understanding, by developing satipa.t.thaana? V: It depends what you mean by suppression. S: Because there's no object to be desired. V: It's still the craving. S: But you said it's not as strong as coming out [of seclusion]. The object is not... V: Ah! As a matter of fact, you said that. I said that one still has the kilesa, but you're making the effort to be aloof from it...to be away from it, in order to break away a little from it. S: But without developing satipa.t.thaana, one cannot see ones own deep rooted kilesa which hasn't been eradicated yet, because lokuttara citta hasn't arisen yet. So how can one see ones own accumulations perfectly? How can one say that one has developed satipa.t.thaana if one only develops it in the secluded place and not here and [if] satipa.t.thaana cannot arise here? That's not the development of satipa.t.thaana. If satipa.t.thaana can arise even here, one can say one has developed satipa.t.thaana and one does not mind or care about [the] place anymore because satipa.t.thaana can arise anywhere. If one develops satipa.t.thaana only in the secluded place, pa~n~naa is not strong enough at all, because one is only used to being aware or developing it in [the] secluded place, so sati can be aware of only a few types of naama and ruupa, not all types of naama and ruupa in ones life, that one is used to taking for 'I'. V: You seem to reverse the process and encourage city life. S: For lay people, for my accumulations and for the others' accumulations who sit here now. V: We're not speaking about individuals - individual bhikkhus or [lay people]. We all have defilements, virtue is something that we can all do. It's not a matter of separating people. 'Robes' is just a concept. S: I have practised satipa.t.thaana in secluded places for about ten years and I know that's not enough. It should be daily practice. *** Metta, Sarah ======= #96730 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Mar 22, 2009 9:12 am Subject: [dsg] Sangiiti Sutta Threes (54-56) , sutta 56 and commentary. nilovg Dear friends, 56. sutta: Walshe DN 33.1.10(56) 'Three predominant influence: oneself, the world, the Dhamma (Tii.ni aadhipateyyaani :attaadhipateyya'm, lokaadhipateyya'm, dhammaadhipateyya'm). -------- N: The co. explains that someone makes himself the predominant influence, the foremost influence in not doing evil, thinking, I am freed to this extent by siila, samaadhi and pa~n~naa. ------ The subco: this is worldly freedom. N: Thus, not the freedom which is the eradication of akusala by lokuttara pa~n~naa. ------- Co: He can make the world the predominant influence in not doing evil. As to having dhamma as predominant influence in not doing evil, this is lokuttara dhamma. ------ The subco explains that because of hiri oneself or dhamma is the predominant influence in not doing evil and because of ottappa the world is the predomiant influence. N: The Atthasalini explains that moral shame (hiri) has a subjective origin, that its proximate cause is respect for oneself. Fear of blame (ottappa) has an external cause, it is influenced by the "world"; its proximate cause is respect for someone else . Moral shame, as the Atthasalini explains, can arise because of consideration of one's birth, one's age, heroism (courage and strength) and wide experience. It may happen that, although we have listened to the Dhamma and see the value of having less attachment to self, we are still selfish, disinclined to help others, or still easily inclined to anger. However, there may also be moments that we remember that the Dhamma we studied should be applied and that it is foolish to give in to selfishness and anger. At such moments moral shame arises because of consideration of what we have learnt, because of the understanding we have acquired from the study of the Dhamma. Fear of blame, ottappa, fears the consequences of evil. These consequences are manifold. There are many degrees of akusala kamma and these produce different degrees of result, vipaka. Some akusala kammas produce their results in the course of our life by way of unpleasant experiences through the senses; when we are blamed by others or receive punishment it is the result of kamma. There is also akusala kamma which produces result by way of an unhappy rebirth. When we consider the consequences of akusala we should not only think of the vipaka it produces, but we should also see the danger of accumulating more and more tendencies to akusala. Because of defilements we are unhappy, we have no peace of mind. ----- N: As we read, lokuttara dhamma can be the predominance influence in not doing evil. When akusala is eradicated it cannot arise again. When refraining from akusala there may be thoughts of self, such as wanting to have a happy rebirth, or thoughts of other people, such as what do they think about me? In those cases there are still thoughts of I or the others. Refraining from akusala with dhamma as predominant influence has not reached accomplishment when enlightenment has not been attained yet. However, the understanding of realities which is developed in vipassanaa will lead to the eradication of the idea of self. When akusala dhamma and kusala dhamma are understood as conditioned dhammas, not self, there will be more conditions to refrain from akusala because of dhamma. Kusala is kusala and akusala is akusala and they do not belong to anyone. ------- Co: Aadhipateyyesu adhipatito aagata.m aadhipateyya.m. Ettakomhi siilena samaadhinaa pa~n~naaya vimuttiyaa, na me eta.m patiruupanti eva.m attaana.m adhipatti.m je.t.thaka.m katvaa paapassa akara.na.m attaadhipateyya.m naama. Loka.m adhipati.m katvaa akara.na.m lokaadhipateyya.m naama. Lokuttaradhamma.m adhipati.m katvaa akara.na.m dhammaadhipateyya.m naama. --------- Nina. #96731 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Mar 22, 2009 9:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] truth and prepared seats nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 20-mrt-2009, om 14:43 heeft szmicio het volgende geschreven: > L: Could you remind us about daily life? > > What's the characteristic of nama? > > What's the characteristic of rupa? ------ N: You know the answer in theory. We all do, we just copy words. We should not 'try' to know the difference between the reality that knows and the rupa that is known. We know that visible object could not appear if there were not seeing. Whatever appears is just dhamma, conditioned dhamma and this is to be understood first of all. No use to wonder: is it nama or is it rupa. When a beginning understanding is more familiar with the characteristics that appear (no naming), there will be conditions for a more precise understanding. Nobody can make the first stage of tender insight arise. And you have understood this very well. -------- > > L: There is seeing and hearing now, but why is that we are involved > in the world of nimitta? in the world of people and things? --------- N: Accumulations of ignorance and clinging. You know, you have understood this. --------- > > Please Nina can you say about moha? What's the characteristic of > moha in daily life? > > We are so concerned about our lifes and 'practices'. But everything > which have arisen now is gone. ------ N: Quite true, also ignorance is gone when you think about it. What do you think yourself of ignorance and dosa? Most people stare themselves blind on dosa, but what about the other kinds of akusala? They dislike dosa because they do not want unpleasant feeling and therefore they try to remedy dosa by thinking. Is this not a selfish attitude? And not realistic. It may still be self who sees the disadvantage of akusala. They are all dhammas, no judgement. Lukas, you often ask for reminders, but you can make your own reminders. You can share these with others and then you do not think of yourself. It helps yourself and others. You have enough understanding to do this. Nina. #96732 From: "gazita2002" Date: Sun Mar 22, 2009 11:39 am Subject: pariyati gazita2002 hallo friends, the Buddha said 'to whatsoever one frequently gives attention and repeatedly reflects on, to that the mind will turn'. was thinking about the above in relation to pariyati. If one frequently gives attention to and reflects on the dhamma - as the liberating law discovered and proclaimed by the Buddha [buddhist dict.] - then can this become a condition for the arising of patipatti, and one day, pativedha? I guess this depends on whether there is the idea of 'I can do this'. For example, if the next hour was given to dhamma study with an idea "I will study now so that awareness will/can arise" this is wrong view. However, while studying one may begin to see that the dhamma is about conditions which occur quite beyond anyone's control. Just naamas and ruupas arising and falling away time after time after time....... may all beings be happy azita #96733 From: "szmicio" Date: Sun Mar 22, 2009 12:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] truth and prepared seats szmicio Dear Nina Please don't worry. i really understand anattaness and experience it in daily life. even it's just on intelectual level, there is not just thinking. It's daily life. Generaly when i asked about nama and rupa i mean to hear more on realities. i dont mean to grasp or pinpoint what's nama and ruupa. Maybe i do something wrong. but i learned now, that everything is conditioned, so here is no problem. i live my daily life. dont try to grasp anything and if i try, it's lobha. dont worry about me Nina. I can die even tommorrow and all will be good. i dont care. I am so happy that i can share Dhamma with our friends here, Dhamma doesnt belong to anyone. it's also anatta. I know that we can mislead ourselves about 'understanding' but it's also conditioned. akusala are really deep rooted. There is so much akusala in my life, but is so good object to understanding. Devas dont feel akusala, they dont know suffering. I am so happy that i live as human being and that there is so much akusala in my life. They helped me so much to develop understanding. Those are my thoughts. Best wishes Luke > > L: Could you remind us about daily life? > > > > What's the characteristic of nama? > > > > What's the characteristic of rupa? > ------ > N: You know the answer in theory. We all do, we just copy words. We > should not 'try' to know the difference between the reality that > knows and the rupa that is known. We know that visible object could > not appear if there were not seeing. > Whatever appears is just dhamma, conditioned dhamma and this is to be > understood first of all. No use to wonder: is it nama or is it rupa. #96734 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Mar 22, 2009 9:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Disappointed in Ven Thich Nhat Hanh upasaka_howard Hi, Robert - In a message dated 3/22/2009 3:38:26 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, epsteinrob@... writes: > It's been years since I've read the Surangama Sutra, and I largely > forget it. what I DO recall is that it deals a lot with hearing, and it considers > hearing to be ongoing - a notion I find odd. The main point I got out of it is that our understanding of the senses and how they relate to a "reality" that we perceive is a mental construct that does not represent the actual process. And they explore this through each of the senses in great philosophical detail. ----------------------------------------------- Ahh, interesting. I'll have to try to dig it out and reread it. --------------------------------------------- Best, Robert E. ======================== With metta, Howard *(Anonymous) #96735 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Mar 22, 2009 9:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Disappointed in Ven Thich Nhat Hanh upasaka_howard Hi again, Robert - In a message dated 3/22/2009 3:38:26 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, epsteinrob@... writes, with regard to the Surangama Sutra: The main point I got out of it is that our understanding of the senses and how they relate to a "reality" that we perceive is a mental construct that does not represent the actual process. And they explore this through each of the senses in great philosophical detail. ================================= I just found a translation of the Surangama Sutta by Charles Luk in PDF form, and, wow, there is much more to it than I had realized. I believe that what I read in the past must have been just a lengthy excerpt. I look forward to reading this! (For those interested, the site at which I found this is _http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/surangama.pdf_ (http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/surangama.pdf) ). With metta, Howard *(Anonymous) #96736 From: "ajschrier" Date: Sun Mar 22, 2009 12:43 pm Subject: sila and the first stage of holiness ajschrier Dear all, I am new to this group. My name is Arjan, form Holland. I practise Buddhism since 2000 and help out with abhidhamma courses at Sangha Metta in Amsterdam. I have a question. I sometimes read that a sottapanna cannot breach the 5 precepts anymore. As a sottapanna only severs the first three samjoynana he still can have patigha, the fifth samjoyana (being overwelmed by anger). So I think that this patigha could still cause killing. I thought that a sottapanna is only unable to do the five heinous deeds: 1 killing his mother 2 killing his father 3 killing an arahant 4 causing a schism in the Sangha and 5 wounding a Budhha. How do you understand this? With metta, Arjan #96737 From: Sarah and Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Mar 22, 2009 1:48 pm Subject: List delays and hiccups.... message from yahoo dsgmods All, F/W message from Yahoo groups. Any replies off-list to the mods or to yahoo direct only! TIA. Sarah & Jon =============================== >Over the past three weeks we know that some of you have experienced a few hiccups while using Yahoo! Groups. For this, we're sorry we're in the process of moving to new data centers, a move which should enable us to deliver faster page loads, a more stable system, and an all-around better user experience. >Currently, about 75% of Yahoo! Groups have been moved over to the new data centers and the remaining 25% of groups will be moved over in phases between now and March 31st. >As is the case with any move, however, issues sometimes arise, which in this case have resulted in temporary delays or bugs. As a result of this, some of you may be experiencing a temporary issue accessing your files and we're working to resolve that now. We're sorry about any inconvenience caused by these problems; and we appreciate your patience, as we work through these issues in an effort to improve your experience on Yahoo! Groups. Yahoo Groups ============ #96738 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Mar 22, 2009 2:19 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Secluded Place. Discussions with Khun Sujin in Bangkok, 1976 (1).... sarahprocter... Dear Lukas (& Alex), Good comments below: --- On Fri, 20/3/09, szmicio wrote: >> A: Why can't conventional self (which is fully conditioned) not be able to produce right-effort, strive at eradicating unskillful tendencies and cultivate the growth of skilful ones? >L: Is it lobha, or alobha then? Is it thinking or not? I think the only chance for alobha is now, no matter what we think about 'self' or 'non-self'. You said in previous tread that there is thinking about dhamma and it's diffrent then applying dhamma in daily life. I think the same, but no matter what's happening now it's always daily life, and no need to think much. just normal daily life. i belive that it leads to detachment. even there is so much akusala we can learn more and more that's not ours. >Right-effort is a part of Ariya-magga, and it's quiet diffrent from that what we think of right-effort. right-effort is nama, no one can induced or make right effort to arise. >>A: What is attadipo, attadanta, attadattha, attagutta, attahetu, attahita, etc? >L: Those are just words. ;> ... S: ;> Look forward to more of your exchanges! Thx to Alex for his questions as usual. Metta, Sarah ======== #96739 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Mar 22, 2009 2:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: effort. sarahprocter... Hi Rob Ep, --- On Fri, 20/3/09, Robert Epstein wrote: >When I say entity, I mean a kind of self or individual identity. If each of these mental factors are "experiencers, " that is the same as saying they are selves. If experience just arises for consciousness in an objective way, that is one thing. ... S: What do you mean by this last sentence? Take the example of hearing consciousness, what does it mean for 'experience to arise for hearing in an objective way'? ... >But if there is a specific consciousness, like something that stands there to take a particular experience in, and the cetasikas do this as well, each in its own right, how are they not like little momentary selves? ... S: Again, I don't know what it would mean for hearing to 'stand there to take a particular experience in' (or for cetasikas to do so.) Cittas and cetasikas arise momentarily, perform their functions of experiencing an object and then fall away. No atta is involved. [forget those other sutras and other teachings you've been reading:-)] >S: Take seeing consciousness as an example. It is different from hearing and it is different from visible object. It is the nama which sees visible object. The vedana (feeling) which accompanies it, 'tastes' the visible object. Again, vedana is anatta, but it is not 'nothing', because it's an element. .... R:> This is very subtle business - the line between "not being nothing" and "not being a self." ... S: Yes, the teachings are all subtle. The understanding of namas and rupas is subtle. ... R:> If namas and rupas are seen as "real existent things," rather than arising and falling experiences, they are verging on the edge of selfhood, and there is a danger they will be seen as real in a way that establishes their substantiality. ... S: They are dhammas with characteristics. They are not illusions or concepts as other teachings would have us believe. Now, it can be tested out that there is hardness experienced at a moment of touching the computer, visible object is seen by seeing consciousness, sound is heard. There is thinking about all these experiences. So the test comes down to a moment of awareness and right understanding now. No substantial thing or self involved, but let's not deny the realities. ... R:> That's my fear when too much emphasis is put on how *real* they are, rather than how they demonstrate the three characteristics, which really tend to show that they are ultimately *not* real [as we experience them.] ... S: No, I disagree. The three characteristics are the characteristics of these realities. We cannot talk of anicca, dukkha or anatta *apart* from seeing, apart from visible object, apart from contact and so on. This is why the Buddha talked at length about the khandhas, the dhatus, the ayatanas and so on. Visible object is exactly as it is experienced now. The only difference is that now, there is usually ignorance of it, whereas when right understanding develops, it is seen for the reality it is. ... >I am more comfortable with Buddha's admonitions to see all things are temporary and passing away, unsatisfying and not containing a core or being part of self, than emphasizing the momentary, changing reality as being a series of *real things.* ... S: But what are these 'all things' which he taught as being 'temporary and passing away...' and so on? Again the realities or dhammas as classified as khandhas, ayatanas and so on. .... >This latter emphasis may make the arising and falling dhammas more important than they should be. The point, as you do often emphasize, is only that they demonstrate impermanence and non-self. ... S: Without understanding the conditioned dhammas as impermanent, dukkha and anatta, it's impossible to realise the unconditioned dhamma. And without understanding the characteristics of the individual dhammas, it's impossible to understand the general characteristics of dhammas, such as their impermanence. ... >....One should always justify any interpretation by seeing that it illuminates but doesn't contradict what the Buddha originally spoke. Buddha himself has to get the final word. ... S: I think you'll find that what I've said above can be found throughout the Tipitaka:-). When you talk about awareness in the kitchen whilst washing the dishes, what is this awareness of, if not of softness, sound, thinking, feeling and other realities? It is not awareness of nothing! Metta, Sarah ======== #96740 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Mar 22, 2009 2:27 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] sila and the first stage of holiness sarahprocter... Dear Arjan, Welcome to DSG and thnak you for your introduction. --- On Sun, 22/3/09, ajschrier wrote: >I am new to this group. My name is Arjan, form Holland. I practise Buddhism since 2000 and help out with abhidhamma courses at Sangha Metta in Amsterdam. ... S: I'm glad to hear of your interest in Abhidhamma and look forward to more of your questions and answers! ... >I have a question. I sometimes read that a sottapanna cannot breach the 5 precepts anymore. As a sottapanna only severs the first three samjoynana he still can have patigha, the fifth samjoyana (being overwelmed by anger). So I think that this patigha could still cause killing. ... S: No, he can still have dosa/patigha (aversion), but not to the degree that motivates killing. ... >I thought that a sottapanna is only unable to do the five heinous deeds: 1 killing his mother 2 killing his father 3 killing an arahant 4 causing a schism in the Sangha and 5 wounding a Budhha. >How do you understand this? ... S: There are no more conditions for him/her to breach the 5 precepts at all. Siila of this degree has been perfected through the development of right understanding to this degree. There is clear, unshakeable comprehension of dhammas as anicca, dukkha and anatta. There is clear understanding of kamma and its results. I hope this helps. I'm about to go to bed, but I'm sure someone else will provide you with textual quotes, if you wish. Metta and welcome again! Sarah ======= #96741 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Mar 22, 2009 3:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] sila and the first stage of holiness nilovg Dag Arjan, welkom hier. Op 22-mrt-2009, om 13:43 heeft ajschrier het volgende geschreven: > I am new to this group. My name is Arjan, form Holland. I practise > Buddhism since 2000 and help out with abhidhamma courses at Sangha > Metta in Amsterdam. > > I have a question. I sometimes read that a sottapanna cannot breach > the 5 precepts anymore. As a sottapanna only severs the first three > samjoynana he still can have patigha, the fifth samjoyana (being > overwelmed by anger). So I think that this patigha could still > cause killing. ------ N: The anaagamii has eradicated dosa. The sotaapanna still has dosa, but it cannot motivate akusala kamma that can bring result by way of an unhappy rebirth. The sotaapanna can still speak with anger, but never kill. He does not take dosa for mine, he is aware of dosa when it arises and realizes it as only a conditioned element. ------- > A: I thought that a sottapanna is only unable to do the five > heinous deeds: 1 killing his mother 2 killing his father 3 killing > an arahant 4 causing a schism in the Sangha and 5 wounding a Budhha. ------- N: This is out of the question for a sotaapanna, but apart from these he will not kill, not even an insect. For a worldling it may not always be easy to observe the five precepts, but the sotaapanna who has eradicated wrong view has no more conditions to transgress them. ------- Nina. #96742 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Mar 22, 2009 12:10 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] sila and the first stage of holiness upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Arjan and Sarah) - In a message dated 3/22/2009 11:41:43 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Dag Arjan, welkom hier. Op 22-mrt-2009, om 13:43 heeft ajschrier het volgende geschreven: > I am new to this group. My name is Arjan, form Holland. I practise > Buddhism since 2000 and help out with abhidhamma courses at Sangha > Metta in Amsterdam. > > I have a question. I sometimes read that a sottapanna cannot breach > the 5 precepts anymore. As a sottapanna only severs the first three > samjoynana he still can have patigha, the fifth samjoyana (being > overwelmed by anger). So I think that this patigha could still > cause killing. ------ N: The anaagamii has eradicated dosa. The sotaapanna still has dosa, but it cannot motivate akusala kamma that can bring result by way of an unhappy rebirth. The sotaapanna can still speak with anger, but never kill. He does not take dosa for mine, he is aware of dosa when it arises and realizes it as only a conditioned element. ------- > A: I thought that a sottapanna is only unable to do the five > heinous deeds: 1 killing his mother 2 killing his father 3 killing > an arahant 4 causing a schism in the Sangha and 5 wounding a Budhha. ------- N: This is out of the question for a sotaapanna, but apart from these he will not kill, not even an insect. For a worldling it may not always be easy to observe the five precepts, but the sotaapanna who has eradicated wrong view has no more conditions to transgress them. ------- Nina ============================== An informative sutta in this regard is the Vera Sutta, available via the following link to Access to Insight: _http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an10/an10.092.than.html_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an10/an10.092.than.html) With metta, Howard *(Anonymous) #96743 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Mar 23, 2009 8:05 am Subject: eCard from Fiji jonoabb Hi All > Yes, I know how it goes. Actually, I was laughing this morning when we finally 'connected'. Jon had got in late after his 3 flights, one of which was a little delayed. By midnight, his room still wasn't available, so he was temporarily put in an old room and decided not to set his alarm. At 7 a.m., however, he was woken by a 'Tsunami alert'! He grabbed his passport and computer and was told to make his way (I assume in his pyjamas) with the other guests up a hill! I think the rest of the day was just as unpredictable, but then isn't even this moment of seeing or hearing unpredictable? --------------------------------- Jon: Yes, so unpredictable. I never thought I'd be evacuating a hotel because of a tsunami threat. It arose because of a massive underwater volcano and subsequent earthquake off Tonga which, as you all know, is in this same region. I was so tired and jet-lagged that at first I didn't appreciate the seriousness of the message I was given, but when it hit me I desperately scurried around for some clothes to throw on over my pyjamas. Not being able to find any footwear, I padded out to the hotel lobby in my bare feet. There we were given the news that we had about 20 minutes to get to hihg ground (the hotel being right on the harbour front), and it would have to be on foot; so I dashed back to my room and found my shoes, grabbed my passport and laptop, and dashed back to the lobby just in time to join the general exodus. Never a dull moment in the Pacific Islands! Jon #96745 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Mar 23, 2009 8:11 am Subject: Re: CMA and leaf from Bodhi Tree jonoabb Hi Lukas > Jon can you say more about nama and rupa? I like to hear you. And our last talk was so long ago. > There is so much forgetfulnes in daily life. We prefer to live in plesant world of our own, then develop understanding now. Yes, so much forgetfulness, so much attachment to pleasant feeling, and so little development of understanding. Actually, it can be no other way. Lack of developed understanding makes it inevitable that the moments of ignorance and wrong view will far outweigh those of awareness. That's why it's so difficult to reach the stage where the continued development of understanding is assured (the higher vipassana naana's). I'm glad you ask about nama and rupa. I think it's easy to forget that this is a way of describing what is happening at the present moment. They are not things that we are supposed to learn about and then go and look for, if you see what I mean ;-)) At the present moment there is seeing consciousness and there is the object of that seeing; there is thinking and feeling and there is probably some harness or softness being experienced through the body door. The classification of dhammas as namas and rupas tells us that these dhammas differ in that some experience an object and others do not. Of course, there is no control over which dhammas, if any, will be the object of awareness, or when. But reflecting on matters such as the different classifications of dhammas is one of the conditions that can support moments of awareness at some later time (not of our choosing). This particular classification of dhammas also tells us that, in the (hypothetical) example given above, the seeing consciousness, the thinking and the feeling have in common the aspect of experiencing an object, while the visible object and the hardness or softness have in common the absence of that aspect. To my understanding, this 2-fold classification is the first of the many classifications of dhammas to be understood by direct experience. Appreciating your interest and comments. Glad the books arrived, and that you are enjoying CMA. It contains a wealth of information. Jon #96746 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Mar 23, 2009 8:13 am Subject: Re: Are KS Folks Less Intelligent Than Monkeys? I Hope Not. jonoabb Hi Alex > First 2 steps of Anapanasati it has pajanati long/short breaths. > > pajanati = active present finite verb. "knows clearly" > > From 3rd step onwards we have: > sikkhati = active present finite verb for "learns; trains oneself; practises." Thanks for this. So are you saying this indicates that the "case where" part includes what you describe here as the first 2 steps, while the actual "instruction" begins at the 3rd step? > >"Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu, having gone to a forest or having gone >to the root of a tree or having gone to an empty building, sits >down, having folded his legs, having set his body upright, having >established mindfulness in front of him." > > > > ... I read this as describing a monk who is leading a life devoted >to the development of samatha > > In the sutta the Buddha clearly states that Anapanasati can develop satipatthana! Thanks for the quote (below) from the Anapanasati Sutta. To my understanding, what is being said is that anapanasati can be developed in a way such that satipatthana is also developed. It is not a matter of the development of samatha leading necessarily to the development of insight. Jon > "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is of great fruit, of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference to their culmination. The four frames of reference, when developed & pursued, bring the seven factors for awakening to their culmination. The seven factors for awakening, when developed & pursued, bring clear knowing & release to their culmination. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.118.than.html #96747 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Mar 23, 2009 8:16 am Subject: Re: Make a garland of many good deeds! jonoabb Hi Jonathan Welcome to the list from me. > Dhammapada 4 Flowers ... > When we help others unconditionally, we gain confidence in ourselves, increase our faith in the dhamma, as well as build our character and self-esteem. As with any new endeavor, this may prove uncomfortable at first. However, with diligence and practice we create a greater and greater feeling of satisfaction and contentment for ourselves and others. Thanks for the Dhammapada verses and your comments. Very inspiring. I notice that your comments on the verses are mainly about bodily conduct. Without wishing to diminish the importance of good bodily conduct, would it also be correct to see the Dhammapada verses as encapsulating the Buddha's message about the development of insight and release from the cycle of birth and death? Jon #96748 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Mar 23, 2009 8:36 am Subject: [dsg] Re: effort. jonoabb Hi Robert E Hope you don't mind me butting in here ;-)) >Rob: This is very subtle business - the line between "not being nothing" and "not being a self." If namas and rupas are seen as "real existent things," rather than arising and falling experiences, they are verging on the edge of selfhood, and there is a danger they will be seen as real in a way that establishes their substantiality. ------------------------------------------------ Jon: We are familiar here with the idea of the 'substantialisation' (or 'reification') of dhammas. As far as I know, however, there's no such 'misunderstanding' spoken of by the Buddha (unless you have some particular sutta or text in mind?). The suttas are full of reference to dhammas, so they obviously have a significance in his teachings. The expression 'existent things' (or more usually, 'self-existent things') is commonly employed to make the point you are making, but it's not an expression that the Theravadin texts use, so it's something of a straw man. When the Buddha spoke about dhammas (or namas and rupas) he was talking about the present moment. As of now, dhammas are not seen for what they truly are; we take the conventional world of people and things as being the 'real' world. The Buddha explained how in fact it is the world of dhammas that is the real world, and he described how the knowledge of that of is to be developed. ------------------------------------------------ Rob: That's my fear when too much emphasis is put on how *real* they are, rather than how they demonstrate the three characteristics, which really tend to show that they are ultimately *not* real [as we experience them.] ------------------------------------------------ Jon: I believe your concern here is misplaced. It is *dhammas*, not the people and things of our present conventional world, that exhibit the three characteristics. Those characteristics cannot begin to be known by direct experience until there is a beginning understanding by direct experience of dhammas (namas and rupas). ------------------------------------------------ Rob: I am more comfortable with Buddha's admonitions to see all things are temporary and passing away, unsatisfying and not containing a core or being part of self, than emphasizing the momentary, changing reality as being a series of *real things.* This latter emphasis may make the arising and falling dhammas more important than they should be. The point, as you do often emphasize, is only that they demonstrate impermanence and non-self. ------------------------------------------------ Jon: When you say, "Buddha's admonitions to see all things as temporary and passing away", what "things" are these? The answer is, of course, dhammas; not the conventional things of the world as we now know it. Dhammas were classified by the Buddha in the suttas in many different ways: as khandhas, as elements, as ayatanas, as the 'foundations' of mindfulness, as namas and rupas, and so on. These many classifications were necessary because of the difficulty of understanding dhammas as they truly are. Consider this for a moment. In the classification of dhammas as the 5 khandhas (rupa/form, vedana/feeling, sanna/memory, sankhara/formations, vinnana/consciousness), the second, third and fourth khandhas refer to the cetasikas, while the fifth refers to citta. Indeed, the second and third khandhas each refer to a single cetasika. So here considerable prominence is given to cetasikas. They are certainly not any less 'real' than citta. Jon #96749 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Mar 23, 2009 9:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] truth and prepared seats nilovg Dear Lukas, No I do not worry about you. I like to encourage you to help butting in here in the different posts. Just butt in into any post you like. Butting in is done in a forum like this. I am glad you understand what subtle lobha is, trying to know. Op 22-mrt-2009, om 13:54 heeft szmicio het volgende geschreven: > Devas dont feel akusala, they dont know suffering. I am so happy > that i live as human being and that there is so much akusala in my > life. They helped me so much to develop understanding. -------- N: Also devas have akusala cittas, lobha arises even in the highest plane of existence. But you mean perhaps suffering of bodily pain. They have less than humans. But when their life in the devaplane is nearly exhausted, there is also unpleasant bodily feeling. You wrote a post about pasada ruupas and I believe this was not answered yet. ------- L: One of the dhammaaramma.na are pasada-rupas. They are gross not subtle, near not far. ------ N: Correct. ------- L: In javana-process of mind-door there can be understanding of them. But there cannot be understanding of them in the sense-door processes, why? because it can have only 5 sense-consiousnes as its object? ------- N: The sense-door process cittas have only the seven rupas that are sense object, colour, sound, etc. as object. Who can understand in a mind-door process pasada rupas? Even though it is coarse, it is not easy. ------- L: when pasada-rupa is dhammaaramma.na, does it mean that is an object of citta? -------- N: It is always dhammaaramma.na. It can only be experienced by citta in a mind-door process. ------ L: Can pa~n~na experience pasada-rupa which is past, for example that has fallen away 3 years ago? ------ N: Pa~n~naa that is pa~n~naa of vipassanaa can experience with understanding the characteristic of what appears at the present moment. --------- L: When pa~n~na arises and has citta as an object, it's cittanupassana ------ N: correct. ------- L: and when pa~n~na has object of citta as its object then it is dhammanupassana, isnt it? ------ N: I think you refer to pa~n~naa that is insight? When a concept is object of citta, insight does not take a concept as object, only a reality. As to dhammanupassana, this includes actually all naama and ruupa, they are all dhammas. See for example the five khandhas that are included here. ------ Nina. #96750 From: "Sukinder" Date: Mon Mar 23, 2009 9:53 am Subject: Re: my personal copy of KS's Survey sukinderpal Hi Sarah, I forgot about this post. ======= > Dear Rob Ep, Sukin & Nina, > > --- On Sat, 14/3/09, Robert Epstein wrote: > > >Just wanted to thank you, as I have just received the copy of KS's Survey which you arranged to have sent to me. It is a beautiful volume and not at all overly large, but a fine quality book with very nice paper. See, I am noticing the little things in the moment again.... :-))) > .... > S: thx for you kind note and like Nina, I look forward to when you get past the nice paper:-)) > > Also, thanks to Sukin for his help and Kevin our postman in the States on his return from Bangkok. We enjoyed meeting him very much. > > Metta, > > Sarah > > p.s. Sukin, any news of Kevin? Will he be joining us here? No I haven't heard from him. He said that he would join DSG and I hope that he is at least reading in. Without continued exposure and the opportunity to discuss, wrong view has geater chance to arise and increase imo. And as I heard last, during his discussion with Robert and Ivan a day before leaving Bangkok, Kevin expressed appreciation of some Mahayana ideas which apparently don't match that of the Theravada. :-/ But then conditions rule, and I can only hope for the best. Metta, Sukin #96751 From: "Scott" Date: Mon Mar 23, 2009 11:13 am Subject: Sangiiti Sutta Threes (57-59) scottduncan2 Dear All, Continuing from #96514 Threes (54-56) (cy: #96578, #96621, #96730): CSCD Tii.ni kathaavatthuuni " atiita.m vaa addhaana.m aarabbha katha.m katheyya " eva.m ahosi atiitamaddhaana 'nti; anaagata.m vaa addhaana.m aarabbha katha.m katheyya " eva.m bhavissati anaagatamaddhaana 'nti; etarahi vaa paccuppanna.m addhaana.m aarabbha katha.m katheyya " eva.m hoti etarahi paccuppanna.m addhaana 'nti. Walshe DN 33.1.10(57) 'Three topics of discussion: Talk may be of the past: "That's how it used to be"; of the future: "That's how it will be"'; of the present: "That's how it is now." Olds [ 3.57 ] Three areas of dispute: There is the area of dispute over the past that begins: 'Thus it was in the past.' There is the area of dispute over the future that begins: 'Thus it will be in the future.' There is the area of dispute over the present that begins: 'This is how it is now.' RD's [3.57] Three bases of discourse, to wit (1) discourse may be concerned with the past:--'Such things were in the past'; (2) discourse may be concerned with the future:--'So will it be in time to come,' or (3) with the present:--'So has it come to pass at the present day.' **olds: [3.57] (Ti.ni kathaa-vatthuuni. Atiita.m vaa addhaana.m aarabbha katha.m katheyya -- 'Eva.m ahosi atiita.m addhaanan ti.' Anaagata.m vaa addhaana.m aarabbha katha.m katheyya -- 'Eva.m bhavissati anaagatam addhaanan ti.' Etarahi vaa paccuppanna.m addhaana.m aarabbha katha.m katheyya -- 'Eva.m hoti etarahi paccuppannan ti.') There is a book of commentary called the Katha-vatthu: Points of Controversy, tr. S.Z. Aung and Mrs C.A.F. Rhys Davids, 1915, 1993, (where it is clear that 'controversy' is what that book is dealing with). CSCD Tisso vijjaa " pubbenivaasaanussati~naa.na.m vijjaa, sattaana.m cutuupapaate~naa.na.m vijjaa, aasavaana.m khaye~naa.na.m vijjaa. Walshe DN 33.1.10(58) 'Three knowledges: of one's past lives, of the decease and rebirth of beings, of the destruction of the corruptions (pubbenivaasaanussati-~naa.na'm vijjaa, sattaana'm cutupapaate ~naa.na'm vijjaa, aasavaana'm khaye ~naa.na'm vijaa). Olds [3.58] Three visions: knowledge of past lives; knowledge of the outcome of deeds; knowledge of the eradication of the asavas RD's [3.58] Three branches of wisdom, to wit, knowledge of one's former lives, knowledge of the decease and rebirth of beings, knowledge in the destruction of the 'intoxicants.'3.58 **olds: [3.58](Tisso vijjaa: Pubbe-nivaasaanussati-~naa.na.m vijjaa, sattaara.m cutuupapaate ~naa.na.m vijjaa, aasavaana.m khaye ~naa.na.m vijjaa) This is what is usually called the "Tivijja" of the arahant. Pubbe-nivaasaanussati-~naa.na.m: previous-habitation knowledge sattaara.m cutuupapaate ~naa.na.m:knowledge of the cessation and relocation (Walshe and Rhys Davids: rebirth) of beings. Understood more broadly as knowing the outcome of deeds, being able to see the workings of kamma. Also known as The Divine Eye aasavaana.m khaye ~naa.na.m: knowledge of the destruction of the No-goods. See also Glossology: Vijja And the discussion of "Samma Vijja" at the end of The 10th Lesson ***rd: 3.58Or AAsava's. On the annexaion, with the meaning above given, of the adjective te-vijjo, see Psalms of the Sisters, 26, n. 2. B. exegetically paraphrases vijjaa as tama.n vijjhati, pierces the gloom, i.e., of the unknown. CSCD Tayo vihaaraa " dibbo vihaaro, brahmaa vihaaro, ariyo vihaaro. Walshe DN 33.1.10(59) 'Three abidings: deva-abiding, Brahmaa-abiding, the Ariyan abiding *1055 (dibbo vihaaro, Brahmaa-vihaaro, ariyo vihaaro. Olds [3.59] Three habitats: the habitat of the gods, the habitat of Brahma, the habitat of the Aristocrats. RD's [ 3.59 ] Three states, to wit, deva-consciousness, the divine states, the Ariyan state.3.59 *walshe: 1055 The second refers to the Brahmavihaaras (DN 13), the third to Arahantship. **olds: [3.59](vihaaraa: dibbo vihaaro, Brahma-vihaaro, ariyo vihaaro) Rhys Davids footnotes: "The first is the conscious experience of the 'Eight Attainments' or Jhanas, the second that of the Four Exercises in sublime emotion, the third is that of the Fruitions." This is another case of the commentators confiscating for the service of their own ends concepts which are more broadly aplicable. The godly habitations are attained by the jhanas, but they also include realms attained by simple good deeds; The Brahma abodes are attained by the Four Godly Thoughts (Brahmaviharas) but also by way of the jhanas and excellence of conduct and good deeds; as for the ariyan abodes the greater likelihood is that this is a reference to the Pure Abodes, the Suddhavassa Realms. I do not recall anywhere in the suttas where it is stated that the Arahants "live" in any sort of "vihara", or loka or "abode." Additionally, when an individual attains one or another of the jhanas, he is often said to make it his vihara, but this phrase is not used when we hear of someone who has become arahant. This may, in fact simply be a reference to anyone who is on the path. ***rd: 3.59 The first is the conscious experience of the 'Eight Attainments' or Jhaanas, the second that of the Four Exercises in sublime emotion (cf. I, p. 317 f.), the third is that of the Fruitions. Sincerely, connie, Nina, Scott. #96752 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Mar 23, 2009 12:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Nibbana is NOT THE ALL> sarahprocter... Dear Alex (& Scott), Further to our discussions on nibbana as object, I thought Scott quoted you some excellent detail in #96672 from the Itivuttaka and its commentary. As he said: --- On Fri, 20/3/09, Scott wrote: >>A: "Do you believe that something remains in the final parinibbana, that can perhaps 'know' final parinibbana? " >Scott: The question is unclear but as far as I'm following it, no. There are no more conditions for the arising of any consciousness. With the final ceasing of that which is already impermanent and not-self, with no further conditions for any arising, how could this be? I thought you were discussing Nibbaana as an object of consciousness. Consider Itivuttaka 43, The Unborn Sutta: ... S: In case this hasn't been enough detail, there's also lots more in 'useful posts' under 'Nibbana - as object of consciousness' and 'Nibbana and Parinibbana'. Thanks Scott, as usual, for your helpful assistance. Much appreciated as were Alex's qus! Metta, Sarah ======= #96753 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Mar 23, 2009 12:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Secluded Place. Discussions with Khun Sujin in Bangkok, 1976 (1) sarahprocter... Hi Alex, --- On Fri, 20/3/09, Alex wrote: >sarah abbott wrote: > Sujin : One develops samatha according to one's accumulations, OK? A:> If person never practices samatha, then how and when will samatha accumulations ever arise? .... S: Let's use a simple example. Let's say there is wise reflection on the Teachings of the Buddha now, wise reflection on the Dhamma. At such a moment there is calm (samatha)accompanied by pa~n~naa. These are conditioned dhammas like all other conditioned dhammas. There is never a person doing or practising anything. The wise reflection on the Dhamma occurs because of the inclination or accumulations for such. At such moments of samatha with pa~n~naa, there is the beginning of the development of samatha with the Dhamma as object. The accumulations grow in this way. On the contrary, at any moments of wishing or trying to have samatha, it is lobha (attachment) for an idea of samatha that is accumulating, no calm at all. .... A:> If satipatthana is "just being aware" without any "doing of Buddha's instructions" than animals would be awakened arahants. ... S: If it were just a matter of following apparent instructions, probably certain animals could be trained to do just that. From the Satipatthana sutta and commentary (Soma transl): " 'Gacchanto vaa gacchaamiiti pajaanaati' = 'When he is going (a bhikkhu) understands: 'I am goig'.' In this matter of going, readily do dogs, jackals and the like, know when they move on that they are moving. But this instruction on the modes of deportment was not given concerning similar awareness, because awareness of that sort belonging to animals does not shed the belief in a living being, does not knock out the percept of a soul, and neither becomes a subject of meditation nor the developmnet of the Arousing of Mindfulness." ... >They don't have wrong views (they can't think clearly enough to form any wrong-view) and they certainly don't "misinterpretations " of satipatthana as "these actions have to be done, these actions have to be avoided". ... "From the sort of mere awareness denoted by reference to canines and the like, proceeds the idea of a soul, the perverted perception, with the belief that there is a doer and an experiencer. One who doe not uproot or remove that wrong perception owing to non-opposition to that perception and to absence of contermplative practice cannot be called one who makes become anything like a subject of meditation." Metta, Sarah ======== #96754 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Mar 23, 2009 12:51 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] K. Sujin's Survey, p.147 - All Equal/Don't Own Anything sarahprocter... Hi Rob Ep, --- On Sun, 22/3/09, Robert Epstein wrote: >Hi Sarah. Whoops, back with a greeting - same post again.... ... S: :-) No penalty ticket this time! .... >>--- it will be realised that paramattha dhammas are the same for all people, and that in that respect all people are equal. ... The seeing-consciousnes s and what appears to seeing, visible object, do not belong to anybody. Therefore, we should not take anything for "I" or "mine." << > ... > S: And in this way we can understand that seeing and its visible object is no more special for a billionaire in the States than for a beggar in India. Just paramattha dhammas of no particular importance at all. R:> Of course, to end relative suffering one would have to be aware of that, which I guess is the Buddha's point in that area. ... S: Yes, what we learn is that in the ultimate sense, as in the 4 Noble Truths, all impermanent realities are dukkha, sankhara dukkha. The Truths are equaly applicable to all such experiences. Each visible object is dukkha. ... >>S: This is why it's the understanding of dhammas which leads to detachment and relinquishment. .. R:>That is interesting. Thanks for your comments back. ... S: Likewise..... Metta, Sarah ======= #96755 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Mar 23, 2009 12:58 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: effort. sarahprocter... Hi Rob Ep, --- On Sun, 22/3/09, Robert Epstein wrote: >>S: Hope you get back to Sarnath, one day, but either way, it's just another citta.... R:> :-) >Good reminder, of course. And fascinating, if you do look at the kinds of elements that are involved in invoking those images and feelings. ... S: Yes, the conjurer's trick of the mind, deceiving us all the time... Metta, Sarah ======== #96756 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Mar 23, 2009 1:10 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Secluded Place. Discussions with Khun Sujin in Bangkok, 1976 (2) sarahprocter... Hi Rob Ep, --- On Sun, 22/3/09, Robert Epstein wrote: >> S: Is this by *focussing* with an intention to be aware, or just naturally, without any wish or desire for such awareness? >R: I can say at times that it just occurs naturally. It passes the dhamma test. :-)) ... S: :-)) Well, pa~n~naa will know. Thx for taking all my comments in good humour! ... >> S: I think that samatha is very different from the calm or quiet or ordinary relaxation that we're used to thinking of. For a starter, at each moment of kusala, whether it be dana, sila or bhavana, there is samatha (calm) at such a moment. Most of what we think of as calm or space or relaxation is in fact a kind of attachment. That's common, but panna has to know the difference. For example, when we go for a walk in the woods, do our yoga practice or listen to soft music, it seems peaceful, but it's not samatha. R:> What makes it samatha? ... S: Samatha means calm or tranquillity. It can only arise with kusala cittas (for non-arahats). So, when there is no dana, sila or bhavana, there is no samatha. So while samatha and all kusala states can arise whilst walking in the woods or listening to soft music, most of what is taken for calm or tranquillity is likely to be attachment of one degree or other. ... R: >It seems to be a very mysterious object, if it is not an extension of natural relaxation and being at peace at a given moment. ... S: I think these are 'cheating dhammas'. We feel relaxed or at peace, but isn't it mostly attachment to the sensory experiences and our ideas about them? Are we disturbed when the relaxation is disrupted? Attachment. ... >>S: Thanks for your input, Rob, which I find helpful. Please continue to feel very free to disagree with what I (or anyone else) says! R:> Well, I appreciate that. We seem to have a nice friendship of disagreement, but there is some harmony there too. Also, a lot of my disagreement is a form of enquiry. Socrates got in trouble for that too! :-))) ... S: Yes, there can be more harmony in some disagreements than in some agreements. Perhaps Socrates found that too. And then, of course, most of us have a lot of attachment to the harmony too:-). I just can't imagine why you ever went on such a long vacation [actually, conditions all the time], but so nice to have you back again.....:). Metta, Sarah ====== #96757 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Mar 23, 2009 1:31 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] truth and prepared seats sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, --- On Sun, 22/3/09, szmicio wrote: >L: Yes. I forget about seeing and hearing. There is so many pleasant situations in life. ... S: So this is the answer to your question: "What about dosa?? Its very painful." We dislike the painful, but enjoy the pleasurable. We'd like to be rid of the dosa, but how often do we complain about the attachment or ignorance? ... >L: What about hearing and seeing? There is much more thinking with akusala. and there is no proper attention. Sarah I need to be reminded about realities. ... S: Hearing and seeing are just brief moments of vipaka, the result of past kamma. However we give so much importance to what is seen and heard, that it seems that there is seeing and hearing all the time. It seems there is a world of light and colour and sound, when actually, there is just one moment when light appears, when it is seen. As you say there is a lot of thinking, a lot of akusala, on acount of what's seen and heard because of the attending and conjuring up of stories about the signs and details. There's so much clinging to oneself, wishing to have particular experiences, particular feelings without any detachment most the time. Perhaps you can encourage some other quieter members to say more as well:-). Like Nina, I also enjoy hearing your comments too. We all need reminders, as you say. Metta, Sarah ====== #96758 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Mar 23, 2009 1:20 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Secluded Place. Discussions with Khun Sujin in Bangkok (3) sarahprocter... Dear Alex, I'm very glad to see your (and a few others') comments on this series. I think I've been going too fast, so will slow down a little to give everyone a chance to catch up and add more comments... --- On Sun, 22/3/09, Alex wrote: S:>> Part 3 Developing Samatha in Sa.msaara > > "Samatha is wholesome like daana is wholesome, siila is wholesome but it's not the way to eradicate akusala dhamma." A:> I agree in the respect that samatha by *itself* and *without* right view isn't going to eradicate akusala dhamma. >However, if one does vipassana after heavy samatha, the vipassana is going to be much more effective. ... S: Firstly what is 'heavy samatha'? Why would vipassana 'be more effective' after it? What does it mean for vipassana to be effective anyway? .... A:> Buddha (and many of his disciples) did reach Arhatship after 4th Jhana + insight work. Lets not forget that 4 Jhanas are part of a 8 fold noble path. You simply can't avoid them. ... S: Perhaps the texts should have a 'don't try this at home' warning. It's not a matter of trying to imitate the accumulations of the Buddha and some of his key disciples, but of undersanding our own accumulations, the realities appearing now. I'll leave aside the issue of jhana and the 8 fold path as we've been over this many, many times and both reach our own conclusions. .... >Through heavy Jhana work the mind is fit, pliant, malleable, wieldy, without hindrances (which obstruct vision and feed ignorance) and capable of being worked on. One should make a determination to "let go of everything. Nothing is worth clinging to" etc., from a jhanically super powered mindfulness for stronger results. ... S: Again, I have no idea what 'heavy Jhana work' is. 'Let go of everything' includes jhana cittas and any wish to have them or any other states arise. If greed or anger arises now, it can be the condition for insight to arise now. Forget about what isn't experienced now. Metta, Sarah ======= #96759 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Mar 23, 2009 1:37 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Movie Recommendation- Mr. Magorium's Wonder Emporium sarahprocter... Hi James, Good to hear from you! --- On Sat, 21/3/09, buddhatrue wrote: >I recently recommended the movie 'Joe Black' as a meditation on the mindfulness of death. I now have another recommendation, and it comes from a rather strange source as it is a children's movie, 'Mr. Magorium's Wonder Emporium'. : http://www.imdb. com/title/ tt0457419/ Surprisingly, the entire movie revolves around the upcoming death of Mr. Magorium and how his death impacts those closest to him.<...> ... S: Thanks for sharing these. We don't go to many movies (I'm very picky)even though we live less than 5 mins away from a very nice movie theatre and Jon now gets cheap pensioner tickets! Before he went away, we did go to see Gran Torino, however and we both thoroughly enjoyed it. Quite a few Death themes too. Recommended! Hope you're having a good school year and still enjoying life in Taiwan. Metta, Sarah ======= #96760 From: "reverendaggacitto" Date: Mon Mar 23, 2009 2:52 pm Subject: Thank You ! reverendagga... Hi Everybody! I just want to thank everybody for their kind assistance ,helping me to better study and understand the Tipataka. Due to circumstance my study has been far less formal than other Bhikkhu. In many ways though,I believe that this has been a benifit. Once again, thank you all so much. Om Namah Dhamma Gotama Bhikkhu aggacitto #96761 From: "ajschrier" Date: Mon Mar 23, 2009 2:48 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] sila and the first stage of holiness ajschrier Hi Nina, Sarah an Upasaka, Thank you for your answers. I apreciate your welcome and your thoughts. The questions still puzzles me though. In thinking about it this became a bit of a long text. concerning the fifth precept, I know of one sutta in which, after his death, a peron who had given himself over to alcohol was said to be a sotaapanna (by the Buddha?). His felow men were dismayed to hear this and complained that anyone could become a sotaapanna these days. The commentary stated that he achieved Sotaapatti after stopping to drink. I.e. after his last drink. But I question this reading. It was not stated like this in the sutta. In the Noble Eightfold Path the abstainig from strong liquor is not mentioned at Right Action. I would agree of course that while being in a tipsy or more intoxicated state one cannot see the path due to lack of sati. In one translation, suraa meraya an majja are all said te be names for strong liquor. So maybe the person mentioned did get drunk from undistilled alcohol;-)? On the forth precept, If a sotaappana is already unable to say any lie, he would be as thruthfull as an arahant. However I think such honesty is only possible for an arahant. A sutta states however that a sottapana connot hide any wrongdoing he did. This implies that he aint yet perfect, which we agree he is not. But is he realy already perfect in bodily conduct? If he is non lying, would he only err on the three other Right Speeches? And the first precept, I know I killed some insects and even "euthanised" a dog and a cat myself even after seeing that my previous belief in an real ego (a self) was flawed. I know that in the case of killing the insect my motivation was not exactly to kill it but more to get rid of the nausance.So maybe a answer lies in the fact that the mind at that moment was not willing the being to die but only to get rid of it. But I doubt this and still believe it was a panatipata. Now i hope to do beter and practise not to kill these creatures even when they are in pain. I also cannot say if and where I read that the heinous deeds are left behind in a sottaapanna. The five heinous deeds cause rebirth in hell. And sotapatti liberates one from all four apaaya bhuumi. So again I am probably wrong on the idea that only these five deeds are left behind at sottapati. I am sorry that I don't have the relevant texts at hand. Does any body know where it is stated that anger is weekened at sottapati to the level where panatipati and adinadaana is no longer possible? I thought that only the three citta's were eradicated, 1 the citta with lobha and ditthi and 2 the citta with moha and vicikicchaa, 3 the citta with dosa and macchariya is also eliminated at sottapatti With an investigating mind and metta, Arjan Schrier #96762 From: "Scott" Date: Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:24 pm Subject: Re: Nibbana is NOT THE ALL> scottduncan2 Dear Sarah (and Alex), Regarding: "Thanks Scott, as usual, for your helpful assistance." Scott: You're welcome, Sarah. I thought the commentarial passage was quite clear and I enjoyed considering the sutta in light of it. I certainly don't claim to understand Nibbaana but I found the logic here quite useful: "...Just as there is made known, on account of the fact that it is capable of being fully understood, an escape from sense-desires and forms that have that which surpasses them, which [escape] consisting of that which is their opposite, has as its own nature that which is the antithesis thereof, so does there have to be an escape from all conditioned states having that as their own nature, [which escape], consisting of that which is their opposite, has as its own nature that which is the antithesis thereof. And that escape is the unconditioned element..." Scott: Were Nibbaana not capable of being fully understood - and in this I think Nibbaana as an object of consciousness is what is being referenced - then there would be no escape. I like considering Nibbaana as the antithesis of the conditioned realities. Sincerely, Scott. #96763 From: westbankj@... Date: Mon Mar 23, 2009 1:13 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: my personal copy of KS's Survey farrel.kevin Hello Friends; Yes, I have joined the DSG list ( as you can see :) ) and I am happy to have done so. I have been reading some of the posts here but I must say the e-mails come much more quickly than I ever expected. It's not easy to keep up! There are a few things I would like to say: First of all, thank you Sukin, Ivan, Robert, and all the people that I had the good fortune to meet at Ajahn Sujins group in Bangkok. I have been really fortunate to meet such an amazing group of people. You guys are the best. Secondly, I am happy that you received the copy of Survey of Paramattha Dhammas, Robert. I think you will find that it is one of the most - if not the most - amazing pieces of work that you will ever read. It was a pleasure to be able to send it to you. Third, it's true that I expressed to Robert and Ivan before I left that some of my views had changed about dhamma. In the past I had studied a lot of Mahayana and I have accepted some of these views again. My views do not contradict the teachings found in the Tipitaka however, I just happen to accept Mahayana ideas on top of those ideas. My view is that Ajahn Sujin teaches the correct way of development for reaching nibbana. I don't disagree with what she says. I do, however, accept some Mahayana notions that are outside of the Pali Tipitaka which does shed a different light on things for me for about the path and fruit. While I do hope to participate on the DSG listing (at least from time to time) I will not bring up any of these Mahayana notions as I don't think this is really the proper place for that kind of discussion. This is a place to discuss the right way of development satipatthana for the eradication of ignorance, and the Pali Tipitaka and it's Commentaries. Sincerely, Kevin #96764 From: "Alex" Date: Mon Mar 23, 2009 9:41 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Secluded Place. Discussions with Khun Sujin in Bangkok (3) truth_aerator Dear Sarah, >sarah abbott wrote: > > > Dear Alex, > > I'm very glad to see your (and a few others') comments on this >series. I think I've been going too fast, so will slow down a little >to give everyone a chance to catch up and add more comments... > > --- On Sun, 22/3/09, Alex wrote: > S:>> Part 3 Developing Samatha in Sa.msaara > > > > "Samatha is wholesome like daana is wholesome, siila is wholesome >but it's not the way to eradicate akusala dhamma." > > A:> I agree in the respect that samatha by *itself* and *without* >right view isn't going to eradicate akusala dhamma. > > >However, if one does vipassana after heavy samatha, the vipassana >is going to be much more effective. > ... > S: Firstly what is 'heavy samatha'? Lots of work at removing the hindrances and building up super power mindfulness for insight to do the Job. The Jhanas are states of superpowerful sati and that IS helpful to get the job done. Look, you have read probably 100x the amount needed for Arahatship. Why aren't you an Arahant, Sarah? What is missing? > A:> Buddha (and many of his disciples) did reach Arhatship after 4th Jhana + insight work. Lets not forget that 4 Jhanas are part of a 8 fold noble path. You simply can't avoid them. > ... > S: Perhaps the texts should have a 'don't try this at home' Oh, so he had secret teachings only for the monks and his teachings are not applicable to us? I don't accept this. So one shouldn't follow 8 fold Noble path because it includes Jhana? So what should we study, the Bible? >S: Again, I have no idea what 'heavy Jhana work' is. 'Let go of >everything' includes jhana cittas and any wish to have them or any >other states arise. If greed or anger arises now, it can be the >condition for insight to arise now. Forget about what isn't >experienced now. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======= Being a happy clam is not a way to awakening. Even Buddha and other arahats did make choices/ With metta, Alex #96765 From: "Alex" Date: Mon Mar 23, 2009 9:59 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Secluded Place. Discussions with Khun Sujin in Bangkok, 1976 (1) truth_aerator Hi Sarah, > sarah abbott wrote: > > > Hi Alex, > .... > S: Let's use a simple example. Let's say there is wise reflection >on the Teachings of the Buddha now, wise reflection on the Dhamma. >At such a moment there is calm (samatha)accompanied by pa~n~naa. What about samma-samadhi the 8th factor of Noble 8 Path that includes 4 Jhanas? > .... >A:> If satipatthana is "just being aware" without any "doing of >Buddha's instructions" than animals would be awakened arahants. > ... > S: If it were just a matter of following apparent instructions, >probably certain animals could be trained to do just that. They do not have the faculty of understanding & reasoning developed enough to realize the paths or the fruits or any other significant feat of understanding. With metta, Alex #96766 From: "Alex" Date: Mon Mar 23, 2009 9:55 pm Subject: Re: Are KS Folks Less Intelligent Than Monkeys? I Hope Not. truth_aerator Hi Jon and all, > "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Alex > > > First 2 steps of Anapanasati it has pajanati long/short breaths. > > > > pajanati = active present finite verb. "knows clearly" > > > > From 3rd step onwards we have: > > sikkhati = active present finite verb for "learns; trains >oneself; practises." > >Thanks for this. So are you saying this indicates that the "case >where" part includes what you describe here as the first 2 steps, >while the actual "instruction" begins at the 3rd step? The Pali uses "knows" for first two steps and TRAINS for for the other 14 steps. The 'trains, practices' part is sikkhati . ACTIVE PRESENT VERB. It implies action that is happening. Not something that 'just happens'. Very often in the PALI suttas the Buddha used active present or imperatives. ex: Jhaytha ! [go and] Meditate! Imperative 2nd plural. There is passive causative of jhayati which is jhapiyatha I just did a search. There is no place in Tipitaka, or the commentaries where meditate was used in a passive sense! Same with Bhaveti "increases; cultivates; develops." There is no passive finite forms of that! The word again signifies active action. >To my understanding, what is being said is that anapanasati can be >developed in a way such that satipatthana is also developed. >It is not a matter of the development of samatha leading necessarily >to the development of insight. > > Jon True, Jon. But did I say that one should practice samatha only Anapanasati? No! With metta, Alex #96767 From: "Alex" Date: Mon Mar 23, 2009 11:29 pm Subject: Re: Nibbana is NOT THE ALL>. truth_aerator Dear Scott, Sarah and all, >In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott" wrote: > > Dear Sarah (and Alex), > > Scott: Were Nibbaana not capable of being fully understood - and in >this I think Nibbaana as an object of consciousness is what is being >referenced - then there would be no escape. I like considering >Nibbaana as the antithesis of the conditioned realities. > > Sincerely, > > Scott. Nibbana is seen in the same way as "all that arises, ceases" is seen. "all that arises, ceases" is understanding of the invariable principle and not some clairvoyant super 7th sense perception. Perception of Nibbana is seeing the fact that: Everything that is felt is including in suffering When there is achievement final Nibbana (through remainderless cessation of 5 aggregates) there is nothing felt and thus it is ultimate ease. How can absense of "rupa, vedana,sanna, sankhara, vinnana" be directly felt? It can't! Only by seeing the principle and through wise inference. With metta, Alex #96768 From: "jonathancoppola" Date: Mon Mar 23, 2009 11:20 pm Subject: Know the Truth! jonathancoppola Dhammapada entry #193/23/2009 Dear friendsBelow please find a part of a series of postings that will include entries from the Dhammapada. Along with these will be my comments. I encourage you to reflect on these entries, and post comments of your own here or at: jonathancoppola@... A copy of all the postings is available upon request. The source is: The Dhammapada, Translated by Venerable Ananda Maitraya, Parallex Press, 1995. 5 The Fool 1. Long is the night to the sleepless. Long is the road to the weary traveler. Long is the cycle of rebirth to the unwise, Who do not know the truth. 2. Should a traveler fail to find a companion Equal or better, Rather than suffer the company of a fool, He should resolutely walk alone. 3. "I have children, I have wealth," These are the empty claims of an unwise man. If he cannot call himself his own, How can he claim children and wealth as his own? 4. To the extent that a fool knows his own foolishness, He may be deemed wise, A fool who considers himself wise Is indeed a fool. 1. Unlike the Vedic Brahmin priests of his day, Gautama Buddha did not believe that each of us possessed a deathless soul that would automatically incarnate as a human being. Instead, he believed that the fruits of our actions followed us from life to life (not necessarily a human one). Because he believed that this was true, he urged us to avoid all extremes, and totally purify ourselves from the defilements of lust, anger greed, covetousness, ill-will, pride, conceit.In doing this, we not only improve the life of the person who inherits our kamma (not our soul) we also create the causes and conditions for peace and harmony that ripple out from our good deeds toward our family, friends, community, state, nation and subsequently, the entire world. Then this is reflected back to us! When we have experienced this as "truth" (not intellectually recognize it as such) we are then inspired with unwavering conviction to adhere to the Noble Eightfold Path. 2. Who is the "fool" that the enlightened one speaks of? Later in this chapter, we find out that he is unwise, (not perceiving the empty or unsatisfying nature of all conditioned things) lacking in understanding, behaving as if he were his own worst enemy, and committing evil deeds that produce bitter fruit. When we associate with these types of people, our practice suffers, does it not? Therefore, spending time alone, we can practice contemplation or meditation, amongst other activities that lead to enlightenment. 3. There are many joys involved in family life, however, there are limits imposed by the responsibilities of children and wealth. The supremely enlightened one did not believe that these are obstacles to enlightenment, only our defiled characters . He is warning us, though, that believing that wealth and children are "ours" is bound to lead to the suffering that is caused when we are separated from them. The way that we can call ourselves our own is to have control of our senses, consciousness, words and deeds. Unable to obtain self-control, we are caught up in (addicted to) the endless cycle of the need to have our desires fulfilled. These desires may include the need to have others behave the way that we would like them to, or acquire enlightened traits before it is time, as well as more obvious desires. 4. There are many times when I am not able to comprehend my own foolishness except in retrospect. I write these ideas about the scriptures down to help others to understand the teaching of the supremely enlightened one, and to help myself internalize the ideas with the intention of being better equipped to practice them at all times. I have always considered myself a trainee, and a perpetual student whose ability to explain the Dhamma far outweighs the ability to practice it at all times! Know the Truth! With Metta, Jonathan #96769 From: "Alex" Date: Mon Mar 23, 2009 10:57 pm Subject: Re: Nibbana is NOT THE ALL> truth_aerator Dear Scott, Sarah and all, >In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott" wrote: > > Dear Sarah (and Alex), > > Scott: Were Nibbaana not capable of being fully understood - and in >this I think Nibbaana as an object of consciousness is what is being >referenced - then there would be no escape. I like considering >Nibbaana as the antithesis of the conditioned realities. > > Sincerely, > > Scott. Nibbana is understood in the same way as "all that arises, ceases" is understood. It is understanding of the invariable principle and not some clairvoyant super 7th sense perception. Everything that is felt is including in suffering Because in Nibbana there is nothing felt, it is ultimate ease. How can absense of "rupa, vedana,sanna, sankhara, vinnana" be felt? It can't! Only by seeing the principle and through wise inference. With metta, Alex #96770 From: "jonathancoppola" Date: Mon Mar 23, 2009 11:51 pm Subject: Re: Make a garland of many good deeds! jonathancoppola Hi Jon and all, Jon wrote: I notice that your comments on the verses are mainly about bodily conduct. Without wishing to diminish the importance of good bodily conduct, would it also be correct to see the Dhammapada verses as encapsulating the Buddha's message about the development of insight and release from the cycle of birth and death? Joanthan writes: Thank you very much for this very valuable and practical insight! Yes, Jon, I agree. The earlier chapters of the Dhammapada can be seen from the perspectives that you mention above. This is a vey worthy point, one that I will make use of. I am finding that these earlier chapters are mostly focusing on our behavior. Later in Chapter 6,(I am now on Chapter 5 The Fool)we begin to see words like "devote himself to the cleansing of the blemishes of the mind." and in the post that I submitted a few minutes ago, I refer to wisdom as being the awareness of the emptiness of all conditioned things... Much later in 11, Old Age, cemetary contemplations will be mentioned and in Chapter 25, The Bhikkhu, emptiness as a meditation focus will be mentioned....I could site more examples... I thank you for your input, and will keep the ideas of encapsulating the Buddha's message about the development of insight and release from the cycle of birth and death in mind as I write my next post. Thanks again...Jonathan #96771 From: Sukinder Date: Mon Mar 23, 2009 11:30 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: my personal copy of KS's Survey sukinderpal Hi Kevin, Welcome to DSG. Thanks for sending the Survey to Robert. I was a little hesitant to add that last comment about Mahayana, but now I am glad that I did. ;-) Feel free to bring anything up here on DSG, if something is said to be a Truth, then were all interested in hearing about and discussing it, but of course no obligation to do it either. Look forward to your initiating any discussions or at least joining in to give comments. Metta, Sukin westbankj@... wrote: > > Hello Friends; > > Yes, I have joined the DSG list ( as you can see :) ) and I am happy > to have > done so. > #96772 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Mar 24, 2009 12:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Movie Recommendation- Mr. Magorium's Wonder Emporium buddhatrue Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Before he went away, we did go to see Gran Torino, however and we both thoroughly enjoyed it. Quite a few Death themes too. Recommended! > Thanks for the recommendation. I will see it when it comes out on DVD. Metta, James #96773 From: "gazita2002" Date: Tue Mar 24, 2009 1:43 am Subject: [dsg] Re: my personal copy of KS's Survey gazita2002 hallo Kevin, nice to meet you again :-) and glad to see you at dsg. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, westbankj@... wrote: > > Hello Friends; > > Yes, I have joined the DSG list ( as you can see :) ) and I am happy to have > done so. > > I have been reading some of the posts here but I must say the e-mails come > much more quickly than I ever expected. It's not easy to keep up! > > There are a few things I would like to say: > > First of all, thank you Sukin, Ivan, Robert, and all the people that I had > the good fortune to meet at Ajahn Sujins group in Bangkok. I have been > really fortunate to meet such an amazing group of people. You guys are the best. > .......snip.. > > Third, it's true that I expressed to Robert and Ivan before I left that some > of my views had changed about dhamma. In the past I had studied a lot of > Mahayana and I have accepted some of these views again. My views do not > contradict the teachings found in the Tipitaka however, I just happen to accept > Mahayana ideas on top of those ideas. My view is that Ajahn Sujin teaches the > correct way of development for reaching nibbana. I don't disagree with what > she says. I do, however, accept some Mahayana notions that are outside of the > Pali Tipitaka which does shed a different light on things for me for about > the path and fruit. > > While I do hope to participate on the DSG listing (at least from time to > time) I will not bring up any of these Mahayana notions as I don't think this is > really the proper place for that kind of discussion. This is a place to > discuss the right way of development satipatthana for the eradication of > ignorance, and the Pali Tipitaka and it's Commentaries. > > Sincerely, > > Kevin azita: why not mention some of these notions. I personally feel that you could do that here. Who knows, we may find similarities and differences that are all worth discussing. Hope all goes well for you back home. Patience, courage and good cheer, azita #96774 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Mar 24, 2009 5:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: my personal copy of KS's Survey nilovg Dear Kevin, I join Azita here, good idea, nothing wrong. Is your catskill address still ok, since we are going to send you my rupa book. Nina. Op 24-mrt-2009, om 2:43 heeft gazita2002 het volgende geschreven: > azita: why not mention some of these notions. I personally feel > that you could do that here. Who knows, we may find similarities > and differences that are all worth discussing. #96775 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Mar 24, 2009 8:54 am Subject: [dsg] Re: my personal copy of KS's Survey jonoabb Hi Kevin Welcome to the list from me. It was a pleasure meeting you in Bangkok. > While I do hope to participate on the DSG listing (at least from time to > time) I will not bring up any of these Mahayana notions as I don't think this is > really the proper place for that kind of discussion. This is a place to > discuss the right way of development satipatthana for the eradication of > ignorance, and the Pali Tipitaka and it's Commentaries. There is actually quite a bit of discussion here on Mahayana notions (in one guise or another ;-)), so no need to feel they have to be avoided. Jon #96776 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Mar 24, 2009 8:52 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Secluded Place. Discussions with Khun Sujin in Bangkok, 1976 (2) jonoabb Hi Robert E Let me jump in to your jumping in ;-)) > Rob: I know that wasn't meant for me, but forgive me if I jump in and add my usual comment. One doesn't necessarily need to spend "down time" of any kind, whether it is sitting around the kitchen or sitting in meditation, "trying" to use secondary practices to support the arising of satipatthana. One can use that time to directly look at the reality of what is arising now, as you suggest. They are not mutually exclusive in my view, as some seem to think. Or maybe almost all here seem to think. Jon: The activity of "directly looking at the reality of what is arising now" is not the same as moments of awareness of dhammas (satipatthana), and you are probably not suggesting it is. But more importantly, that activity is not given in the suttas or other texts as a support for the arising of awareness. While there are many references in the texts to the person who sees things as they truly are, these are (in my view) references to developed understanding rather than to a method of practice for attaining that understanding. Jon #96777 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Mar 24, 2009 8:56 am Subject: Re: Are KS Folks Less Intelligent Than Monkeys? I Hope Not. jonoabb Hi Alex > The Pali uses "knows" for first two steps and TRAINS for for the other 14 steps. The 'trains, practices' part is sikkhati . > > ACTIVE PRESENT VERB. It implies action that is happening. Not something that 'just happens'. I understand 'active present verb', but I don't quite see the point you are making here. Taking the example you give above, what is the significance as you see it of "He knows X" as compared to "X is known by him", in terms of whether what is being spoken of is an activity or a state of mind? > Very often in the PALI suttas the Buddha used active present or imperatives. > > ex: Jhaytha ! [go and] Meditate! Imperative 2nd plural. > > There is passive causative of jhayati which is jhapiyatha > > I just did a search. There is no place in Tipitaka, or the commentaries where meditate was used in a passive sense! An interesting observation, but would you mind spelling out what you see as being its significance? ;-)) Thanks, Alex. Jon #96778 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Mar 24, 2009 8:57 am Subject: Re: Make a garland of many good deeds! jonoabb Hi Jonathan >Jonathan: I thank you for your input, and will keep the ideas of encapsulating the Buddha's message about the development of insight and release from the cycle of birth and death in mind as I write my next post. --------------------------- Jon: Thanks for pointing out the other references mentioned in your post. But we may find that even verses that talk about doing "good deeds", such as verse #10 (in your instalment #17), are in fact referring to the development of insight. I say this because in some suttas there is mention of wholesome deeds/actions as being wholesome deeds/actions of body, speech and mind, thus all levels of kusala (including samatha and vipassana). Do any of your translations include the commentaries? That would help unravel some the pithiness that the Dhammapada verses abound with. Speaking of verse #10, the simile of the garland-maker is interesting. Does anyone have any idea what exactly it is referring to? Thanks. Jon 10. A man born to this world should do many good deeds, As a garland maker makes garlands from a heap of flowers. #96779 From: "Scott" Date: Tue Mar 24, 2009 10:55 am Subject: Sangiiti Sutta Threes (60) scottduncan2 Dear All, One more, and Threes are complete: CSCD Tii.ni paa.tihaariyaani " iddhipaa.tihaariya.m, aadesanaapaa.tihaariya.m, anusaasaniipaa.tihaariya.m. Walshe DN 33.1.10(60) 'Three miracles: *1056 of psychic power, of telepathy, of instruction (iddhi-paa.tihaariya'm, aadesanaa-paa.tihaariya'm, anusaasani-paa.tihaariya'm). Olds [3.60] Three wonders: the wonders of magic power, the wonders of mindreading, the wonders of teaching RDs [3.60] Three wonders, to wit, the wonder of mystic power, the wonder of manifestation, the wonder of education.3.60 *walshe: 1056 Cf. DN 11.3 and nn.231-3. {p.175: DN 11, 3. When Kevaddha repeated his request for a third time, the Lord said: 'Kevaddha, there are three kinds of miracle that I have declared, having realised them by my own insight. Which three? The miracle of psychic power, *231 the miracle of telepathy, *232 the miracle of instruction. *233 DN 11, 4. 'What is the miracle of psychic power? Here, Kevaddha, a monk displays various psychic powers in different ways. Being one he becomes many, being many he becomes one ... (as Sutta 2, v.87) [i 213] and he travels in the body as far as the Brahma world. Then someone who has faith and trust sees him doing these things.} 231 Iddhi-paa.tihaariya: 'miracle of iddhi' (see n.128). 128 Iddhi (Skt. .rddhi, not, as often stated, siddhi): translated by RD as 'The Wondrous Gift' and glossed as 'well-being, prosperity'. With dawning recognition of ESP, it is no longer necessary to discount these powers. But despite his mention of them here, the Buddha disapproved of these practices (see DN 11.5). {pp.175-6: DN 11,5. 'He tells this to someone else who is skeptical and unbelieving, saying: "It is wonderful, sir, it is marvellous, the great power and sill of that ascetic..." And that man might say: "Sir, there is something called the Gandhaara charm. *234 It is by means of this that that monk becomes many..." What do you think, Kevaddha, would not a skeptic say that to a believer?' 'He would, Lord.' 'And that is why, Kevaddha, seeing the danger of such miracles, I dislike, reject and despise them.} 234 A charm for making oneself invisible. 232 Aadesanaa-paa.tihaariya. This is actual telepathy, not the same as manesika 'mind-searching' or guessing another's thoughts mentioned in DN 1.1.14. {p.70: 1.14. '"Whereas some ascetics and Brahmins remain addicted to such games and idle pursuits as eight- or ten-row chess, *28 'chess in the air', *29 hopscotch, spillikins, dicing, hitting sticks, 'hand-pictures', ball-games, blowing through toy pipes, playing with toy ploughs, turning somersaults, playing with toy windmills, measures, carriages, [i 7] and bows, guessing letters, *30 guessing thoughts, *31 mimicking deformities, the ascetic Gotama refrains from such idle pursuits.} 233 Anusaasani-paa.tihaariya. The Buddha's teaching can be called miraculous because it leads to the most wonderful results. **olds: [3.60](paa.tihaariyaani: iddhi-, aadesanaa-, anusaasani-) See: The 4 Power Paths; Encompassing a Heart with a Heart; and see the discussion thread: Something for Teachers ***rd: 3.60See I, p. 277f. CSCD Ime kho, aavuso, tena bhagavataa jaanataa passataa arahataa sammaasambuddhena tayo dhammaa sammadakkhaataa. Tattha sabbeheva sa'ngaayitabba.m…pe… atthaaya hitaaya sukhaaya devamanussaana.m. Walshe 'These are the [sets of] three things ... So we should all recite together ... for the benefit, welfare and happiness of devas and humans'. [iii 221] Olds These then, friends, are those three-part Dhammas consummately taught by the Bhagava, that #1-Consummately-Awakened-One, an Arahant who knows and sees. In this situation, let us all gather together as one, undivided, so that this Best of Lives will stay on track and stand for a long time as a benefit to the many, as a pleasure for the many, out of compassion for the world, for the benefit and pleasure of gods and man. RD's These, friends, are the Triple Doctrines perfectly set forth by the Exalted One who knows, who sees. Hereon there should be a chanting by all in concord, not a wrangling, that thus this holy life may persist and be long maintained. That may be for the welfare and happiness of many folk, for compassion on the world, for the good, the welfare, the happiness of devas and of men. Sincerely, connie, Nina, Scott. #96780 From: "jonathancoppola" Date: Tue Mar 24, 2009 11:29 am Subject: Re: Make a garland of many good deeds! jonathancoppola Jon: But we may find that even verses that talk about doing "good deeds", such as verse #10 (in your instalment #17), are in fact referring to the development of insight. I say this because in some suttas there is mention of wholesome deeds/actions as being wholesome deeds/actions of body, speech and mind, thus all levels of kusala (including samatha and vipassana). Do any of your translations include the commentaries? That would help unravel some the pithiness that the Dhammapada verses abound with. Jonathan: Hi Jon, Thank you for these most marvelous insights!!! I would go further to state simply that the purification of all defilements of one's character is not possible without ALL levels of kusala, including vispassan, and samathaa... ...and that it is possible to use these techniques (good and excellent deeds themselves) throughout the day...just not while driving! Unless being the most aware driver was the focus of the meditation! ...I have used mindfulness of the breath for stress reduction while working in very busy restaurants for example... ...focusing on what we say (only kind sweet words) could be considered a meditation, could it not? ...What about the use of Metta...loving kindness toward all living beings as a focus when anuone comes into our awareness...my favorite! I have another dhamma friend who adds that not only is meditation practice a "good deed" it is also "the highest of all deeds, not only for ourselves, but for generations to come..." He gives non specific references to other Pali Canon suttas, however, I am not familiar enough to site them... ...and finally, I do use Dhammapada translations that have commentary: The Dhammapada, Verses on The Way: A new translation of the teachings of the Buddha, With A guide to Reading the Text Glenn Wallis, Modern library, 2004 is my favorite... Unraveling the heap of floweers simile may be aided by looking at other similar ones like: Carpenters shape wood, fletchers make the arrow straight, the wise fashion themselves [with the use of all forms of kusala]!!!! Thank you very much again for your comments...I appreciate them immensely, and have benefited from them greatly... Sincerely, Jonathan #96781 From: "Scott" Date: Tue Mar 24, 2009 12:20 pm Subject: Re: Make a garland of many good deeds! scottduncan2 Dear Jon and Jonathan, Regarding: "10. A man born to this world should do many good deeds, As a garland maker makes garlands from a heap of flowers." Scott: I can't find one so worded. The below is off ATI, translation by Achariya Buddharakkhita: "10. But whoever is purged of depravity, well-established in virtues and filled with self-control and truthfulness, he indeed is worthy of the yellow robe." Scott: The Paa.li is: Yo ca vantakasaavassa, siilesu susamaahito; Upeto damasaccena, sa ve kaasaavamarahati. Scott: I don't see any reference to 'garland makers'. 'Vantakasaavassa' refers, I think, to the arahat. Have I got the wrong verse 10? Sincerely, Scott. #96782 From: "colette" Date: Tue Mar 24, 2009 4:41 pm Subject: Symbolism ksheri3 Hi Group, Interesting that the thread on this supposed intelligence level is still in play. Far be it from me to refuse any plays since this one begs for jesting here & there. What, prey-tell, is this thing called "intelligence"? Whoever started this thread and created that subject line surely knows that the subject line becomes their karmic future since it, the subject line, didn't just sponaneously appear, it was created and thus dependent. Is it right action to mock monkeys by placing them in with the likes of this "KS Students" or vice versa? It certainly isn't very skillful to take two seperate things and put them in conflict and/or opposition. I'm playing with Tantra at the moment and continually run across the problems with symbolism that, after a very short time meditating on whatever it is that the tantra brings to me as a meditational, I always seem to end up REALISING that Buddhism is exactly like Western theological traditions in that it clings and depends upon that ABSOLUTE hallucination and addiction to this concept of "higher" and "lower". <...> There, TONS OF SYMBOLISM and you haven't a clue as to what's goin' on. And you all will probably ignore your teachings and cling to the security blanket that only a tradition like THERAVDANS can give to the blind, <...> In closing, not to make fun of your ignorance and your drug addictions but to remind you of those classic words of wisdom from Oingo Boingo: "I was struck by lightning. Walking down the street. I was struck by something last night in my sleep. It's a dead man's party. Who could ask for more. Everybody's coming leave your body and soul at the door." toodles, colette #96783 From: "jonathancoppola" Date: Tue Mar 24, 2009 11:28 pm Subject: Re: Make a garland of many good deeds! jonathancoppola Hello Scott,Jonathan Coppola here...pleased to meet you!!! Yes you do have the wrong verse 10...yours is in the first chapter twins or pairs...ours in is flowers, chapter 4... 10. A man born to this world should do many good deeds, As a garland maker makes garlands from a heap of flowers." My perception of this simile is: We should do many good deeds, as many as the flowers in the heap of a garland maker...What do others think??? #96784 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Mar 24, 2009 8:40 pm Subject: Re: Make a garland of many good deeds! jonoabb Hi Scott and Jonathan Many thanks for coming in, Scott. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott" wrote: > > Dear Jon and Jonathan, > > Regarding: > > "10. A man born to this world should do many > good deeds, > As a garland maker makes garlands from > a heap of flowers." > > Scott: I can't find one so worded. The below is off ATI, translation by Achariya Buddharakkhita: > > "10. But whoever is purged of depravity, well-established in virtues and filled with self-control and truthfulness, he indeed is worthy of the yellow robe." > > Scott: The Paa.li is: > > Yo ca vantakasaavassa, siilesu susamaahito; > Upeto damasaccena, sa ve kaasaavamarahati. > > Scott: I don't see any reference to 'garland makers'. 'Vantakasaavassa' refers, I think, to the arahat. Have I got the wrong verse 10? There may be a problem with the numbering. I have found the following which seems to be the verse in question: Verse 53. Those Born Into This World Must Acquire Much Merit As from a mass of flowers many a garland may be made, so by one born mortal should many good deeds be done. Explanation: The deft maker of garlands takes a variety of flowers. Out of these he creates garlands of different strands and variegated arrangements. In the same way, those who are born into this world should, out of their lives, create good, wholesome, meritorious actions of a vast variety. The link is: http://www.buddhanet.net/dhammapada/d_flower.htm Jon #96785 From: "jonathancoppola" Date: Wed Mar 25, 2009 2:23 am Subject: Re: Make a garland of many good deeds! jonathancoppola Hi Jon and Scott(thanks for coming in on this!), The problem with the numbering is mine... My translation does not number the Dhammapada by line...only by verse of each chapter...from now on, I will attempt to use the numbering system of most translators and commentators, which is the line number from the beginning of the text. Does that sound correct, Jon? Thanks to Jon for the link...and insights... Jonathan--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" #96786 From: "Alex" Date: Wed Mar 25, 2009 2:44 am Subject: Re: active vs passive verbs in pali used by the Buddha truth_aerator Hi Jon and all, > "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Alex > I understand 'active present verb', but I don't quite see the point >you are making here. The point I am making is that the Buddha said things that have to be done (by anatta, of course. One doesn't contradict the other) in an active sense. > > ex: Jhayatha ! [go and] Meditate! Imperative 2nd plural. > > > > There is passive causative of jhayati which is jhapiyatha > > > > I just did a search. There is no place in Tipitaka, or the >commentaries where meditate was used in a passive sense! > > An interesting observation, but would you mind spelling out what >you see as being its significance? ;-)) Thanks, Alex. > > Jon If Buddha wanted to mean that Jhayati (meditate, contemplate, jhana?) just happens, he could have used causative-passive forms such as jhapiyatha rather that Jhayatha (an active imperative). He could have used different words to signify things just passively happening and developing. If Buddha used different, passive forms for "things to be do" then I would admit the possibility that he taught that "dhammas just happen". But he did not. With metta, Alex #96787 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Wed Mar 25, 2009 4:00 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Secluded Place. Discussions with Khun Sujin in Bangkok, 1976 (2) epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Robert E > > Let me jump in to your jumping in ;-)) > > > Rob: I know that wasn't meant for me, but forgive me if I jump in and add my usual comment. One doesn't necessarily need to spend "down time" of any kind, whether it is sitting around the kitchen or sitting in meditation, "trying" to use secondary practices to support the arising of satipatthana. One can use that time to directly look at the reality of what is arising now, as you suggest. They are not mutually exclusive in my view, as some seem to think. Or maybe almost all here seem to think. > > Jon: The activity of "directly looking at the reality of what is arising now" is not the same as moments of awareness of dhammas (satipatthana), and you are probably not suggesting it is. > > But more importantly, that activity is not given in the suttas or other texts as a support for the arising of awareness. While there are many references in the texts to the person who sees things as they truly are, these are (in my view) references to developed understanding rather than to a method of practice for attaining that understanding. Why did the Buddha say in anapanasati sutta that one who continued to practice in this way would develop Satipatthana and the factors of enlightenment? Think he was just having a bad day? Best, Robert E. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - #96788 From: westbankj@... Date: Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: my personal copy of KS's Survey farrel.kevin Dear Nina, It is still my address. Thank you very much! I look forward to reading that book. Sincerely yours, Kevin #96789 From: westbankj@... Date: Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: my personal copy of KS's Survey farrel.kevin Hi Sukin, Thank you very much. I would, however, prefer to limit by topic of talk here to the Tipitika, if no one minds. I'd like to further study dhamma through reading the posts here concerning the Tipitika. Kevin #96790 From: westbankj@... Date: Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: my personal copy of KS's Survey farrel.kevin Hi Azita, glad to see you and everyone else here too! :) I think I will keep the Mahayana, within the Mahayana boundary for now. Kevin #96791 From: westbankj@... Date: Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: my personal copy of KS's Survey farrel.kevin Dear Jon, Likewise. It was a pleasure meeting you and Sarah. DSG seems like a mighty good place. Looking forward to reading the e-mails. Kevin #96792 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Mar 25, 2009 7:13 am Subject: Not Who, but What? bhikkhu.sama... Friends A friend asked: Who is it that lives these many lives? Answer: It is not any Who… !!! Since selfless is this flux of renewed becoming! The Question should therefore be reformulated as: Question: What is it, that lives these many lives? Answer: It is an accumulated and ever changing group of: 1: Momentary clinging to form; 2: Momentary clinging to feeling; 3: Momentary clinging to perception; 4: Momentary clinging to mental construction; 5: Momentary clinging to consciousness... That blinded by ignorance and obsessed by craving, lives through these many, many, painful lives & deaths! It is not an "I", "Me", "Self", "Soul", "Person", or "Identity"!!! A Cluster Clinging to itself! <...> As the blessed Buddha pointed out: Sabbe Dhammā Anattā All States are Not-Self! Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samāhita, Sri Lanka * http://What-Buddha-Said.net Not Who, but What? #96793 From: "Alex" Date: Wed Mar 25, 2009 2:33 am Subject: Re: active vs passive verbs in pali used by the Buddha truth_aerator Hi Jon and all, > "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Alex > I understand 'active present verb', but I don't quite see the point >you are making here. The point I am making is that the Buddha said things that have to be done (by anatta, of course. One doesn't contradict the other) in an active sense. > > ex: Jhayatha ! [go and] Meditate! Imperative 2nd plural. > > > > There is passive causative of jhayati which is jhapiyatha > > > > I just did a search. There is no place in Tipitaka, or the >commentaries where meditate was used in a passive sense! > > An interesting observation, but would you mind spelling out what >you see as being its significance? ;-)) Thanks, Alex. > > Jon If Buddha wanted to mean that Jhayati (meditate, contemplate, jhana?) just happens, he could have used causative-passive forms such as jhapiyatha rather that Jhayatha (an active imperative). He could have used different words to signify things just passively happening and developing. If Buddha used different, passive forms for "things to be do" then I would admit the possibility that he taught that "dhammas just happen". But he did not. With metta, Alex #96794 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Mar 25, 2009 8:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] sila and the first stage of holiness nilovg Dear Arjan, Let me just take part of your post. Op 23-mrt-2009, om 15:48 heeft ajschrier het volgende geschreven: > And the first precept, > I know I killed some insects and even "euthanised" a dog and a cat > myself even after seeing that my previous belief in an real ego (a > self) was flawed. I know that in the case of killing the insect my > motivation was not exactly to kill it but more to get rid of the > nausance.So maybe a answer lies in the fact that the mind at that > moment was not willing the being to die but only to get rid of it. > But I doubt this and still believe it was a panatipata. Now i hope > to do beter and practise not to kill these creatures even when they > are in pain. ------ N:Yes, taking a being's life is still akusala kamma, but there are degrees. It depends on the person's intention. We discussed the exmaple of a soldier who has to do his duty. Does he like to kill, or is he following up commands? However, a sotaapanna has no more conditions to kill. -------- > > A: I also cannot say if and where I read that the heinous deeds are > left behind in a sottaapanna. The five heinous deeds cause rebirth > in hell. And sotapatti liberates one from all four apaaya bhuumi. > So again I am probably wrong on the idea that only these five deeds > are left behind at sottapati. ------ N: Not correct. As to wrong speech, the sotaapanna does not lie, but as to the other kinds of wrong speech, he can still engage in them, but only in a weak degree, not to the degree of kamma that produces an unhappy rebirth. Thus, he can speak harshly, or engage in idle speech which is eradicated only by the arahat. You are so much wondering about the sotaapanna, but what about us now? We see the value of the precepts, but whenever we abstain, we take kusala citta for self, 'we' abstain. We think of certain rules we try to follow, but what about the citta? We should have more understanding of what the citta is like: kusala or akusala. It arises because of conditions, our accumulated inclinations. Some people accumulated the inclination to drinking and it is very difficult for them to keep the fifth precept. Others may be inclined to tell an untruth, a white lie. We are all different because of different accumulated inclinations. The Buddha taught us to develop more understanding of the different cittas that arise, and even a beginning understanding is helpful. It will lead to more understanding that there is no self. In our daily life there are only citta, cetasika (mental factors accompanying the citta), rupa. We shall come to understand that not self but sati is guarding the six doors. Sati keeps one from akusala. Now you will understand that the sotaapanna who has eradicated the idea of self has conditions to observe the five precepts perfectly. Nina. #96795 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Mar 25, 2009 9:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Secluded Place. Discussions with Khun Sujin (9) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, Part 9: The Secluded Place, limited pa~n~naa? "If one does not mind or care about [the] place - just develop right understanding - that is better" ***** Jill: Did you say that when you developed satipa.t.thaana in a secluded place that the pa~n~naa only knew a few naamas and ruupas. Could you speak a little more about that? Sujin: Because when I go shopping, when I'm watching television, when I read my book, that's not my life in the secluded place, so pa~n~naa was limited in the secluded place. Jill: But if one lived in a secluded place and stayed in a secluded place, if one had right understanding, one would get to know all the naamas and ruupas of one's life. Sujin: All? Not all. And especially with desire for results because one thinks that it helps... Jill: ....to stay in a secluded place? Sujin: Yes, if one does not mind or care about [the] place - just develop right understanding - that is better, because sati can be aware of any object which one is used to taking for self. (One understands) more details. The object is more refined. Tony: Developing sati, developing pa~n~naa to a small degree in the forest as opposed to 'anywhere' - why is it possible to be aware of only certain types, certain levels?​ Sujin: For example, there's no riding [a] bus in the forest! Tony : Why should riding the bus... Peter: Khun Sujin hasn't said you cannot develop satipa.t.thaana in the forest. You can develop it in the forest or in the city, but if what you think is satipa.t.thaana is only occurring in the forest - imagine you'd lived in the forest for ten years and you thought you'd developed sati, but you came to the city and this pheneomona, sati, were not occurring - then it's not sati or satipa.t.thaana. But it doesn't mean you can't develop it in the forest, if you've got right understanding. Ven Guttasila: I imagine when sati is at the level of being calm...[a power]....the place [doesn't matter].... Sujin: It depends on one's own judgment, because one knows oneself whether one has reached the degree that pa~n~naa can perform the function of detachment from all naamas and ruupas or not yet. When one knows that pa~n~naa hasn't come to the level that it can perform the function of detachment from all naamas and ruupas, it conditions awareness to be very natural in every place, in order to sharpen pa~n~naa to reach the level of right understanding that can detach. ***** Metta, Sarah ========= #96796 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Mar 25, 2009 9:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Secluded Place. Discussions with Khun Sujin (10) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, Part 10: A More Conducive Environment? "Before pa~n~na arises, how do you know that that environment is favourable for pa~n~naa?" ***** Ven Guttasila: It seems to me that in some [cases]....right awareness and right understanding can arise in any situation. But some environments [are more suitable]... Sujin: But how do you know that pa~n~naa cannot arise and directly experience naama and ruupa there, because you set or limit pa~n~naa to arise only in the forest or secluded place. Ven G: It seems some places are more conducive.. a more conducive environment.... Sujin: But if one develops more and more sati and more and more pa~n~naa, how can one know that pa~n~naa will arise now, here, or in the forest? It's beyond one's speculation. Do you think pa~n~naa can directly experience naama and ruupa if it has it to be limited, if it can only arise in some places. Should we consider that pa~n~naa? Is it real pa~n~naa? Ven G: I agree with the understanding that it can arise anywhere, but surely some environments are more favourable? Sujin: Before pa~n~naa arises, how do you know that that environment is favourable for pa~n~naa? Any place which pa~n~naa can directly experience the characteristic of naama and ruupa is the favourable place, so one should develop sati and pa~n~naa until that level of pa~n~naa can arise by itself. But one cannot expect or speculate [that] it will arise here or there. Ven G: When sati and pa~n~naa are developed to the level of power, then one can say it doesn't matter where.. Sujin: Alright, but in order to develop it to that level should it be limited? If it is limited it cannot be developed to that power level. ***** Metta, Sarah ======= #96797 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Mar 25, 2009 9:49 am Subject: Re: Make a garland of many good deeds! jonoabb Hi Jonathan (and Scott) Just a bit more on the garland-maker. > Verse 53. Those Born Into This World Must Acquire Much Merit > > As from a mass of flowers > many a garland may be made, > so by one born mortal > should many good deeds be done. > > Explanation: The deft maker of garlands takes a variety of flowers. Out of these he creates garlands of different strands and variegated arrangements. In the same way, those who are born into this world should, out of their lives, create good, wholesome, meritorious actions of a vast variety. ------------------------------------- There are 2 other verses dealing with garland makers at the same link (see text below). Interestingly, these verse talk directly about developed understanding. From the various explanations, I understand the simile to refer to the garland-maker's skill in selecting, arranging and stringing together variegated flowers to make an attractive garland (BTW, garland makers are a common sight in India and other parts of Asia, with their baskets of flower heads of various kinds from which the garlands are made). In the same manner, the person who has an eye for developing kusala sees opportunities where others would not, and he/she is thus able to develop a wide range of kusala (instead of, for example, just dana or just certain kinds of wholesome bodily conduct). In terms of the development of the path, this person can discriminate between the different parts of the doctrine, fitting the disparate parts together into a harmonious whole. Jon ******************************** Verse 44. The Garland-Maker Who will comprehend this earth, the world of Yama, and the gods? Who will discern the well-taught Dhamma as one who's skilled selects a flower. Explanation: An expert in garland making will select, pluck and arrange flowers into garlands. In the same way who will examine the nature of life penetratingly? Who will perceive the real nature of life in the world, along with the realms of the underworld and heavenly beings? Who will understand and penetratively perceive the well-articulated doctrine, like an expert maker of garlands, deftly plucking and arranging flowers. Verse 45. The Seeker Understands One Trained will comprehend this earth, the world of Yama, and the gods, One Trained discern the well-taught Dhamma as one who's skilled selects a flower. Explanation: In the previous stanza the question was raised as to who will penetrate the well-articulated doctrine? The present stanza provides the answer: the student, the learner, the seeker, the person who is disciplined. He or she will perceive the doctrine, like the expert garland-maker who recognizes and arranges flowers. It is the learner, the seeker, the student who will perceive the world of Yama, the realm of heavenly beings and existence on earth. He will discard and determine the various areas of the doctrine, life a deft garland-maker who plucks and arranges the flowers into garlands. ******************************** 10. A man born to this world should do many good deeds, As a garland maker makes garlands from a heap of flowers. ******************************** #96798 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Mar 25, 2009 9:52 am Subject: Re: Make a garland of many good deeds! jonoabb Hi Jonathan > My translation does not number the Dhammapada by line...only by verse of each chapter...from now on, I will attempt to use the numbering system of most translators and commentators, which is the line number from the beginning of the text. > > Does that sound correct, Jon? I'm not sure what you mean by line number from the beginning of the text. The standard numbering system seems to be by Chapter (or Section) and verse, but with the verse numbers running consecutively throughout (1-400+, i.e., not starting anew with each new Chapter). Jon PS Just for general info, the Wikipedia entry has links to a number of translations and a reading: - by Bhikkhu Varado and Samanera Bodhesako (2008) - by John Richards (1993) - by Thomas Byrom (1993) - by Buddharakkhita (1985) (pdf has intro by Bhikkhu Bodhi) - by Thanissaro (1997) - Detailed word-by-word translation of the Dhammapada, including explanation of grammar MP3: - Readings (mp3) from the Dhammapada by Gil Fronsdal http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhammapada #96799 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Mar 25, 2009 9:54 am Subject: Re: active vs passive verbs in pali used by the Buddha jonoabb Hi Alex > If Buddha wanted to mean that Jhayati (meditate, contemplate, jhana?) > just happens, he could have used causative-passive forms such as jhapiyatha rather that Jhayatha (an active imperative). I understand "jhayati!" (the imperative) to mean "develop samatha and vipassana!". So it comes back again to an understanding of what constitutes that development. Jon =========== * Howard's signature blocks: == A change in anything is a change in everything (Anonymous) == Entrances to holiness are everywhere. The possibility of ascent is all the time, even at unlikely times and through unlikely places. There is no place without the Presence. (From Mishkan T'filah, the new Reform prayerbook) == He who does not find core or substance in any of the realms of being, like flowers which are vainly sought in fig trees that bear none - such a seeker gives up the here and the beyond, just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin. (From the Uraga Sutta) == Suppose there were a river, flowing down from the mountains "going far, its current swift, carrying everything with it" and a man would open channels leading away from it on both sides, so that the current in the middle of the river would be dispersed, diffused, & dissipated; it wouldn't go far, its current wouldn't be swift, and it wouldn't carry everything with it. In the same way, when a seeker has not abandoned these five obstacles, hindrances that overwhelm awareness and weaken discernment, i.e., sensual desire, ill will, sloth & torpor, restlessness & anxiety, and sceptical doubt, when s/he is without strength and too weak in discernment to understand what is for one's own benefit, to understand what is for the benefit of others, to understand what is for the benefit of both, then to realize a superior human state, a truly noble distinction in knowledge & vision: that is impossible. (From the Avarana Sutta) == Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream. (From the Diamond Sutra) == When knowing what is to be known, he doesn't construe an [object as] known. He doesn't construe an unknown. He doesn't construe an [object] to-be-known. He doesn't construe a knower. (The Buddha, speaking of himself in the Kalakarama Sutta) == See how the world together with the devas has self-conceit for what is not-self. Enclosed by mind-and-body it imagines, 'This is real.' Whatever they imagine it to be, it is quite different from that. It is unreal, of a false nature and perishable. Nibbana, not false in nature, that the Noble Ones know as true. Indeed, by the penetration of the true, they are completely stilled and realize final deliverance. (From the Dvayatanupassana Sutta) == Just as when a person whose turban or head was on fire would put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, undivided mindfulness, & alertness to put out the fire on his turban or head; in the same way, the monk should put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, undivided mindfulness, & alertness for the abandoning of those very same evil, unskillful qualities. (From the Sacitta Sutta) == "Rouse yourself! Sit up! What good is there in sleeping? For those afflicted by disease (suffering), struck by the arrow (craving), what sleep is there? "Rouse yourself! Sit up! Resolutely train yourself to attain peace. Do not let the king of death, seeing you are careless, lead you astray and dominate you. "Go beyond this clinging, to which devas and men are attached, and (the pleasures) they seek. Do not waste your opportunity. When the opportunity has passed they sorrow when consigned to Niraya-hell. "Negligence is a taint, and so is the (greater) negligence growing from it. By earnestness and understanding withdraw the arrow (of sensual passions)." (From the Utthana Sutta) == "Abandon what is unskillful, monks. It is possible to abandon what is unskillful. If it were not possible to abandon what is unskillful, I would not say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' But because it is possible to abandon what is unskillful, I say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' If this abandoning of what is unskillful were conducive to harm and pain, I would not say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' But because this abandoning of what is unskillful is conducive to benefit and pleasure, I say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' "Develop what is skillful, monks. It is possible to develop what is skillful. If it were not possible to develop what is skillful, I would not say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' But because it is possible to develop what is skillful, I say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' If this development of what is skillful were conducive to harm and pain, I would not say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' But because this development of what is skillful is conducive to benefit and pleasure, I say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' (From AN 2.19) ==